Sitting of 1 February 1966

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL
  To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next.
  BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL
    BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL

      BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
      DERBY CHURCHES (SAINT CHRISTOPHER'S, SAINT PETER'S AND SAINT PAUL'S) BILL
      Read a Second time and committed.

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
    HOVE CORPORATION BILL

      LEE VALLEY REGIONAL PARK BILL
      LEEDS CORPORATION BILL
      LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL
      To be read a Second time Tomorrow.

  LONDON BRIDGE BILL
    LONDON TRANSPORT BILL
    Read a Second time and committed.
  OLDHAM CORPORATION BILL
    SAINT MARY, EALING BILL
    To be read a Second time Tomorrow.
  TEES VALLEY AND CLEVELAND WATER BILL
    THAMES CONSERVANCY BILL
    Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF POWER

    Pits (Proposed Closures)
    Mr. Boxasked the Minister of Power whether he will give details of the timing of the proposed closures of pits in Category C; and if he is satisfied that adequate arrangements are being made for the redeployment of the miners involved.
    The Minister of Power (Mr. Frederick Lee): The timing of the closure of individual pits is a matter for the National Coal Board, which has long-established arrangements for consultation with the unions. The answer to the second part of the Question is "Yes".
    Mr. Box: With regard to those members of the industry who cannot be redeployed within it, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as a result of the recent redefinition of the development areas, mining areas have become comparatively unattractive to new industries? How will the Minister overcome the difficulty of attracting new industries to mining areas in preference to more attractive places within the development areas?
    Mr. Lee: All the areas substantially affected by closures are in the new development areas announced in the White Paper on Investment Incentives. These investment incentives will help to bring industry into these areas. Under the programmes announced since the Government took office 32 advance factories are being built in the mining areas.
    Mr. Snow: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the procedure adopted in Holland, which is faced with a somewhat similar problem of running down old pits, where industry is seen to be available simultaneous with the closing of the pits? Might we not, with advantage, study what is going on there?
    Mr. Lee: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said, but if we look back over the years and study the performance of the National Coal Board in this respect we find that there have been 200 closures in the past five years and that the record of the Coal Board in looking

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    after redundant men is highly creditable. We hope to do no worse in the next five years than we have done in the last five.

    Fuel Supplies
    Mr. Rhodesasked the Minister of Power whether he is satisfied that fuel supplies to domestic and industrial consumers in the Northern Region are adequate; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I understand that supplies of fuel generally in the region are adequate. Local problems over supplies of particular fuels are a matter for the suppliers.
    Mr. Rhodes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in recent weeks the distribution of coal supplies to householders in the North-East has been little short of a shambles, with people having to wait many weeks before obtaining deliveries? In view of this situation, will my right hon. Friend institute a full inquiry into the distributive aspects of the industry with a view to improving the efficiency of the service to the consumer?
    Mr. Lee: I know that there were some difficulties on the distributive side. At the beginning of the winter there were adequate stocks in the area. With the severe weather in November, there was a big demand on available coal supplies there. I am told that the difficulties of distribution have been mainly in getting the type of manpower required for these purposes. In any event, I believe that the position is now easier than it has been for some time.
    Mr. R. W. Elliott: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, when his hon. Friend raised this matter during the Christmas Recess, it caused considerable irritation to individual coal merchants, who contended that it aggravated the position? Is the right hon. gentleman further aware that these merchants contended that they were no more than two days behind, unlike the co-operative society, which was a much greater period behind?
    Mr. Lee: The unbiassed approach which the hon. Gentleman makes is, I am sun, greatly appreciated. There is no dispute that they were behind in dis-
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    tribution. I gave the reason: a shortage of the type of labour required. It is arduous, heavy labour.

    North Sea Operations (Shore Offices and Berthings)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Power what provisions as to the location of the relevant shore offices and berthings of apparatus he has inserted in licences granted by him to drill for oil in the North Sea; and, as to those off the north-east coast of Scotland, how many and which of those offices and berthings will be in Scotland; and where these will be situated.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No such provisions are required by the Regulations, and none have been inserted in the licences.
    Mr. Hughes: Why does my right hon. Friend not make provisions, which would fit neatly into the new Economic Plan for Scotland, to ensure that the relevant offices are placed in the north-east of Scotland, near the site of the drillings? In that way, he would encourage trade, industry, commerce and employment in Aberdeen, where it is badly needed.
    Mr. Lee: I am advised that it is not within my power to require licensees to establish offices or bases in any particular part of the country. If I could whisper a word of encouragement to my hon. and learned Friend—I understand that one licensee has chosen a site in Scotland near Aberdeen for his base.

    Gas Council and N.A.L.G.O. (Pay Negotiations)
    Mr. Alisonasked the Minister of Power why he decided at the end of November to intervene in the pay negotiations between the Gas Council and the National and Local Government Officers' Association; and why he then decided on 7th December to withdraw.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: In accordance with normal practice I discussed with the parties the possibility of referring the case to the National Board for Prices and Incomes. I withdrew when I had informed them of the Government's decision.
    Mr. Alison: But is the Minister aware that his reference to second thoughts smacks very much of invidious discrimintion in favour of a nationalised industry,

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    as distinct from private industry? Can he give an undertaking that application for a similar percentage increase from other sections of the power supply industry will not be treated in the same way?
    Mr. Lee: I cannot give such an undertaking, but if the hon. Member will look at the incidence of cases being sent to the Board from nationalised industries and private enterprise, he will have no cause for complaint.
    Mr. Peyton: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, on this occasion, he has succeeded in getting the worst of both worlds for himself? He intervened and then withdrew and still has not made clear the reasons for his action. I hope that he will do so.
    Mr. Lee: I thought that the reasons were very clear. In the first place, my right hon. Friend usually meets the two parties in dispute; he listens to what they have to say, and if he feels that there is no likelihood of his arranging a settlement, he then sends it to the Board. On this occasion, he was not available and I dutifully deputised.

    Coal Production (Scotland)
    Sir W. Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Power what representations he has received regarding the run-down of coal production in Scotland.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Since January, 1965, I have received about 20 representations from local authorities, trade unions and other organisations in Scotland about coal production and other aspects of coal policy.
    Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a widespread feeling, certainly in the Lothians, if not in all Scotland, that this run-down is in danger of going too far, too fast? Will he bear in mind that he has responsibilities as well as the Coal Board? Will he look at this situation again?
    Mr. Lee: I am very conscious of my responsibilities, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that one keeps this problem under daily survey. Indeed, I discussed these matters with representatives
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    of the Coal Board yesterday. Up to now, I have seen no reason to fear that our planning for this will not be effective to meet the problems.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Could my right hon. Friend give an assurance that, when the closure of a pit or pits is imminent, the hon. Member concerned will be advised of the date agreed upon? Is he aware that one pit in West Fife is uneconomic—it is not one whose resources are exhausted—and that, though the date for closure is reverberating round my constituency, I have not been informed? Will he give an assurance that this will not happen again and that the hon. Member concerned will be fully advised?
    Mr. Lee: I know that there is a good deal of consultation regionally, at pit level and nationally, about a pit closure. I was not aware that hon. Members whose constituencies were affected were not being informed, but I will do everything possible to give my hon. Friend the assurance he wants.

    Cambrian Colliery Explosion (Inspector's Report)
    Mr. Iorwerth Thomasasked the Minister of Power what action he has taken in regard to the recommendations made by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Mines and Quarries in his report on the Cambrian Colliery explosion.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The Chief Inspector made four recommendations in his report and action is being taken to implement all of them.
    Mr. Thomas: I thank my right hon. Friend for the assurance that these recommendations are being expedited. However, is he fully aware of the fact that, pending the enactment of these regulations and their receiving statutory authority, there is a desire throughout the coalfield that the National Coal Board should be directed or persuaded to deal with these recommendations administratively?
    Mr. Lee: This is a very important point. I have been in touch with the Coal Board, which has assured me that steps have been taken to avoid a repetition of the circumstances which led to this explosion.

    Gas and Electricity (Non-payment of Bills)
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Minister of Power whether he will give general directions, in the public interest, to the gas and electricity boards outlining the procedure to be adopted when services are suspended because of non-payment of bills when hardship to children may be caused.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir. The boards can be expected to give sympathetic consideration in cases of special hardship.
    Mr. Goodhart: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that, during the recent cold spell, the London Electricity Board cut off the supplies to a house in my district, in which there was a child with a congenital heart condition and that, in the opinion of the doctor, the child's health was endangered? As the local children's officers inform me that this is by no means an isolated case, will he look at this again?
    Mr. Lee: I think that my noble Friend has written to the hon. Member about this case. The general procedure is that the beards allow three or four weeks after a bill has been sent out before a final note is issued and at least another week before the supply is disconnected. After all, the boards are commercial undertakings and if people who do not pay their bills are allowed to get away with it, that means, in effect, that others must pay more for their gas and electricity. In general, if the circumstances were known, I am sure that cases of this sort would not happen.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: While not wishing to shield the dishonest, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would agree that the citizens' advice bureaux can play an effective part in finding out whether there is real hardship in any case?
    Mr. Lee: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right.

    Gas Supplies (East and West Horsley)
    Sir G. Sinclairasked the Minister of Power in view of the recent failures of gas supplies, especially from 28th to 30th December, in East and West Horsley and
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    adjoining areas, what steps he is taking to ensure that there are no further interruptions of supply between now and the coming into operation of the new transmission main expected in May, 1966.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I am informed by the South Eastern Gas Board that the necessary steps have been taken to reinforce the supply of gas.
    Sir G. Sinclair: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the recent breakdowns were due to the failure of booster pumps which had failed before and that no spares were held locally? Will he ensure that, in future, vital spares are held locally?
    Mr. Lee: There is a little more to it than that. What the hon. Member says is right, but there was also a blockage in a distribution main. They now have the necessary adjunct to the distribution system. Even if they had had the equipment at that time, they could not possibly have used it. I understand that they now have the necessary parts.

    Oil Rig "Sea Gem" (Loss)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the loss of the oil rig "Sea Gem" which was placed in the North Sea under licence from him and which was wrecked there recently with loss of life; and what precautions he plans to take to prevent the placing of other oil rigs at sea under licence from him and to prevent similar disasters.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: As I have already announced, I am arranging a public inquiry into this tragic accident, the report of which will be laid before Parliament.
    Mr. Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend make that report public as soon as possible? Is not this terrible wreck a reflection on the builders and navigators of the "Sea Gem"? Will he take steps to ensure that, in future, the builders are better selected and the navigators more careful where they take future oil rigs?
    Mr. Lee: As I said, the results of the inquiry will be made public and I would rather not prejudge the issue at this point.
    Mr. Peyton: Is the Minister aware that we entirely endorse the answer he has given, that it is wholly deplorable to prejudge the results of the inquiry in the way in which his hon. and learned Friend has done? Would he further accept that we on this side of the House—I am sure I speak for the rest—would wish to express every sympathy with the relatives of those who so tragically lost their lives?
    Mr. Lee: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I did what I could in that direction.

    Electricity (Oil-Fired Power Stations)
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Power if, in view of the recommendation of the National Board for Prices and Incomes, he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the Central Electricity Generating Board, that rates of depreciation for oil-fired power stations should be calculated more severely in view of possible premature obsolescence should large quantities of natural gas become available from the North Sea.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir. It is too early yet to assess the implications of discoveries of natural gas, but these would have to be very large to affect the economic life of power stations using other fuels.
    Mr. Palmer: Will my right hon. Friend remember that in all these calculations concerning the future of fuel and power it is important that every factor, favourable and unfavourable, should be taken into account?
    Mr. Lee: Indeed I do. For example, the conversion of boilers from oil to gas firing would not be difficult or expensive. The point made by my hon. Friend is very much in our minds.

    Electricity Council (Deputy Chairman)
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the appointment of Sir Alan Wilson, a director of Glaxo Limited, as Deputy Chairman of the Electricity Council; why this appointment was made on a part-time basis; and what is the salary to be paid.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I appointed Sir Alan Wilson, F.R.S., to be a second Deputy Chairman of the Electricity
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    Council with effect from 1st January, 1966, to succeed Mr. C. T. Melling, who has retired. The statute requires two deputy chairmen to be appointed. An additional full-time member was appointed to the Council last year, and the duties at deputy chairman level can at present be covered by one full-time and one part-time appointment, as they have been during the past year. The salary for the part-time post is £2,000 a year.
    Mr. Palmer: Does my right hon. Friend agree that an industry like the electricity supply industry, which absorbs such a large proportion of the nation's industrial capital, really deserves a full-time appointment, as was until recently the case? Is my right hon. Friend saying that there was no administrator, experienced engineer or other administrator within the power supply industry available to fill this appointment without having to go to a manufacturer of baby food and chemical products?
    Mr. Lee: I think there is something to be said at times for bringing new blood into any industry. Sir Alan Wilson is a very distinguished scientist. He is a director of International Computers and Tabulators, a part-time member of the Iron and Steel Board, the Chairman of my Nuclear Safety Advisory Committee and a lecturer at Trinity College, Cambridge. He therefore has considerable qualifications.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us wholeheartedly welcome the appointment of Sir Alan, who is well versed in many other aspects of industry and commerce?
    Mr. Shinwell: Do not such industrial tycoons have enough to do on the jobs enumerated by my right hon. Friend without being given this part-time appointment? By the way, on a point of order, would it not be useful if hon. Gentlemen who speak from the Front Bench opposite first mentioned their names so that we may know who they are?—[Interruption.] Who was the last speaker?
    Mr. Lee: I mentioned Sir Alan's qualifications to show the type of man he is. He has done fine public service and I understand that he has retired from one or two of the appointments I mentioned since taking on this job.

    Miners (Voluntary Absenteeism)
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Power whether he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the National Coal Board to take steps to reduce voluntary absenteeism among the miners, with a view to increasing the revenue of the National Coal Board and enabling it to meet its commitments, reduce the price to the consumer, and assist the balance of payments situation by offering coal for export at competitive prices.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir.
    Dame Irene Ward: As Lord Robens will be very concerned at the righ rate of voluntary absenteeism in the coal mines, may I ask whether the Minister has consulted him? Could we have a full report of Lord Roben's views about why there is this high rate of voluntary absenteeism, which is certainly against the national interest?
    Mr. Lee: I should have thought that Lord Robens had made his views widely known. The Coal Industry National Consultative Committee is at present carrying out a coalfield survey, to consider all the relevant information on these matters and it will make recommendations.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Would my right hon. Friend explain why the coal industry is the only industry in Britain which must produce official figures of absenteeism? Is he aware that if he looks around he might care to make a guess at the amount of absenteeism on the benches opposite? I have made a quick calculation—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must ask a question but not add a statement.
    Mr. Hamilton: And I estimate—[Interruption.]—it at 84 per cent.
    Mr. Lee: An inquiry is at present going on. I agree with my hon. Friend that one can overdo this sort of thing in the case of a particular industry. The coal industry has all kinds of inhibitions which are not peculiar to any other industry.

    Gas Supplies (West Midlands)
    Mr. Hugh Fraserasked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the breakdown of gas supplies in the
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    West Midlands, and on the remedial action which he proposes to take.
    Mr. Ioan L. Evansasked the Minister of Power what representations he has received from the West Midlands Gas Consultative Committee about gas supplies in the West Midlands; what action he has taken; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I would refer the hon. Members to the statement I made to the House on Tuesday, 25th January, 1966. I am glad to say that supplies have now been fully restored. I have received no representations from the West Midlands Gas Consultative Council.
    Mr. Fraser: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the point missed throughout in his statement is the question of the type of management of these boards and that there is no question but that in the West Midlands the advertising policy, tariff policy and many of the other policies concerned with this Board have come in for severe criticism? What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do about top management in these boards? The right hon. Gentleman hires men and enables them—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions must be snappier.
    Mr. Lee: The answer is that I am having an inquiry conducted into the whole question.
    Mr. Evans: While accepting my right hon. Friend's earlier remarks about the situation in the West Midlands, may I ask him to consider the discussion which has taken place at the West Midlands Consultative Council, because it is thought by the members there that the question of not forecasting the supply in the area enters into this and that this was part of the problem?
    Mr. Lee: I have had no representations from them, although I spent a few hours in the company of the chairman and deputy.
    Mr. Lubbock: What is the point of having consultative councils in the electricity and gas industries if they do not make representations to the Minister on a matter of this extreme importance?
    Mr. Lee: It is a question for the boards themselves. They can approach the area

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    boards—[Interruption.]—if they wish—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Why ask me? I am not a member of the area consultative council.
    Mr. Eyreasked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the Gas Board that they should offer compensation to domestic users of gas in the West Midlands area in view of the failure of the Board to supply the quantity of gas required.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir.
    Mr. Eyre: Does the Minister realise that thousands of domestic consumers in the West Midlands suffered badly during the cut, particularly those in the smokeless zones, because the pressure of the gas supply was so low that it was worthless for cooking and heating purposes? Many of these people feel that they have been cheated. Would not the Minister consider some form of gesture of good will?
    Mr. Lee: I sympathise with consumers who suffered inconvenience. There is no question of their having paid more for the gas they received—they did not pay over the odds. The hon. Gentleman says that the supply was hardly any use, but he will know that gas pressures cannot go below a certain level for fear of explosions, and that kind of thing. It was for that reason that domestic consumers were kept supplied.
    Mr. Eyreasked the Minister of Power why no steps were taken by way of consultation with industry to lessen the damage caused to production and exports resulting from failure of gas supplies in the West Midlands.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Consultation did take place, but on 20th January the situation became so serious that the use of gas by industry had to be stopped almost entirely. Further discussions are now being held to see whether a scheme can be devised to minimise the effects of any further cuts that should become necessary.
    Mr. Eyre: Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten the words in the Prime Minister's statement during the earlier crisis in November, that the Winter Emergency Committee would deal with
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    any emergency that arose; that it would—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must not quote in a supplementary question.
    Mr. Eyre: Then was the Winter Emergency Committee asleep on this job?
    Mr. Lee: The Winter Emergency Committee had no business to be on this job at all.
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Power whether he will include other technical failures in the terms of reference of the inquiry into the recent failure of gas supplies.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I have not yet settled the terms of reference of the inquiry but I intend that it should cover all relevant matters.
    Mr. Digby: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the failures like the one instanced in Question No. 17 asked by his hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Rowland), and give an example of some of the failures which are occurring?
    Mr. Lee: Question No. 17 is about smells, but I do not think the smell would get from Tipton to West Dorset, which is about 150 miles. However, I will look at the question again.

    Gas Industry (Advertising)
    Mr. Danceasked the Minister of Power how much has been spent by the gas industry on advertising in the course of the last convenient 12-month period.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: In the 12 months ended 30th September, 1965, expenditure on promotional advertising in the Press, on television and by posters amounted to £2,588,000. Expenditure by appliance manufacturers is excluded.
    Mr. Dance: Does not the Minister agree that this is one of the worst confidence tricks ever played on the public; that large sums of public money are being spent to encourage people to buy appliances which use a commodity which, when they want it, virtually does not exist? Does he not think that this "phoney" piece of advertising should be referred to one of the numerous Government bodies which have been set up?
    Mr. Lee: The hon. Gentleman is grossly exaggerating the position. The House knows that 11 out of 12 boards did not fail to deliver that which they advertised. Indeed, if private enterprise had the same record as the gas industry in this respect it would be better off than it now is.
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Power whether he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the Gas Council to suspend advertising, both national and local, for a further period beyond 1st March.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir. But the question of advertising is one that I intend to keep under review.
    Mr. Digby: Is it not now self-evident that the ban on advertising was imposed too late, and will the right hon. Gentleman be on his guard against lifting it too soon?
    Mr. Lee: This was not the criticism I received when I put on the ban. There was criticism of interference with the rights of other people. As a matter of fact, I merely suggested that it would be a good thing to do it, and I think that it has been rather good. I will discuss with the appropriate chairmen —[Interruption.]—I will discuss with the appropriate industries what the future may be. At this stage I cannot anticipate the action to be taken.
    Mr. Speaker: It is discourteous, and against the rules of the House, for Members to walk between a Minister and a questioner.

    Lurgi Plants (Smells)
    Mr. Rowlandasked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction to the West Midlands Gas Board to eliminate the disagreeable smells from their Lurgi gas-making plants; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No. Sir.
    Mr. Rowland: Is my right hon. Friend aware that all responsible authorities in the area are completely fed up with the West Midlands Gas Board in this matter? Is he sure that everything possible is being done, and could he give some indication of how long this process and
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    accompanying smell will be used by the West Midlands Gas Board?
    Mr. Lee: All possible steps have been taken. I understand that if statutory obligations arise in the matter the relevant provisions would be those of the Alkali &c. Works Regulation Act, 1906, which is the concern of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

    National Fuel Policy (Co-ordination)
    Mr. Ioan L. Evansasked the Minister of Power what plans he has for a co-ordinated national fuel and energy policy.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The White Paper on Fuel Policy published last October set out fully the principles underlying the Government's co-ordinated national fuel policy and the chief measures which we propose taking to put this policy into effect. I shall continue to keep under review the policy and its application.
    Mr. Evans: In addition to co-ordinating production, should not my right hon. Friend also be co-ordinating distribution? Now that the coal, gas and electricity industries are under public ownership, can we look forward to the time when there will not be separate consumer fuel centres but co-ordinated gas, electricity and coal utilisation centres so that wasteful competition in advertising will not exist among the industries?
    Mr. Lee: My hon. Friend may know that that subject has been surveyed by, I think, two committees in the course of the last few years, and they decided on balance that this was not a good thing to do. Distribution of gas and electricity is directed by the nationalised industries, and the Coal Board has the powers to do this if it wishes.
    Mr. Peyton: Is the Minister aware that, broadly speaking, the White Paper on Fuel Policy which he produced follows up very largely the policy of the previous Administration and, largely, has our support? Is he also aware that he has our full sympathy, and that we very much hope that he will not be sacrificed on the altar of co-ordination, as was his right hon. Friend the erstwhile Minister of Transport?

    Anthracite Grain Supplies (Bolton)
    Mr. Oakesasked the Minister of Power why there is a shortage of anthracite grain smokeless fuel in the Bolton area; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: This is a matter for the National Coal Board and the distributors, and I have asked the Chairman of the National Coal Board to write to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Oakes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that certain types of smokeless fuel grates will burn no other type of fuel? Does he agree that it is essential to have regularity and continuity of supply, both to encourage local authorities to create smokeless zones and to encourage householders to use indigenous fuel?
    Mr. Lee: Demands for anthracite and Welsh steam coal were at a very high level, but my hon. Friend may remember that because of floods in South Wales the ability of the railways to move such fuel was restricted. The N.C.B. is doing all it can to increase the availability of supplies and to ensure that merchants receive their fair shares. The Phurnacite plant is now working to capacity, and the recently opened Multiheat plant is making a contribution.

    Coal (Pithead Price)
    Mr. Varleyasked the Minister of Power what has been the percentage increase in the pithead price of coal during the period November, 1964, to November, 1965.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: None, Sir.
    Mr. Varley: Is this not evidence that the Coal Board is doing everything possible to hold down prices? However, whilst accepting that point, is not my right hon. Friend aware that the retail price of coal over the various stages of the period in my Question has gone up by 12 per cent.? Will he ask the Board to look into the possibility of extending its retail sales activity with the same success?
    Mr. Lee: There has not been any general price increase for coal at the
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    pithead for more than five years—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—and, indeed, no selective price increase since May, 1962; whilst in September, 1964, coking coal prices were reduced by an average of 2s. 6d. a ton. I will bear in mind the point my hon. Friend makes about retail sales.

    Electricity Pylons and Power Lines
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Power if he will issue a general direction to the Central Electricity Generating Board that there should be full consultation with the local authorities and other interests concerned before the siting of pylons and the routes of power lines are determined, and that various alternative routes should be considered with a view to the choice of those routes which will cause least hardship and inconvenience to the public, before the Board's wayleave officers call on householders to inform them of impending disturbance.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir. The Board does carry out out extensive consultations with local authorities and others, and is well aware of the need for arriving, as far as possible, at generally acceptable routes.
    Mr. Driberg: Has my right hon. Friend considered the case I sent him in which a number of my constituents were threatened with severe disturbance, but worked out an alternative route for themselves which the Board ultimately said was better than the original proposal? Whilst we are very glad that the Board accepted the alternative route, would it not have been possible for its experts to have worked it out in advance, without causing all that anxiety and delay?
    Mr. Lee: In the case to which my hon. Friend refers, I understand that the Board originally proposed the route of an existing line, which the local authorities approved. Later, the Board agreed with the local authorities and the other interests affected by the change of route the alternative suggested by my hon. Friend's constituents. I should have thought that the case itself showed that the Board was always willing to investigate any reasonable alternative to meet the wishes and convenience of local householders.

    Solid Fuel Supplies
    Sir J. Lucasasked the Minister of Power if he is aware that, though the National Coal Board has been advertising solid fuel-burning appliances extensively, local coal merchants are rationed by the Board on the basis of their 1962 fuel requirements; and if he will issue a general direction, in the public interest, to the Board to ensure that either fuel supplies will be available, or that advertising for the sale of appliances will cease, until the fuel supply is assured.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I understand that, generally, the N.C.B. has been able to supply merchants with the quantities of house coal and Sunbrite which they have needed. For special reasons, supplies of anthracite, Phurnacite and Welsh boiler fuels have been short, but the position is slowly improving.
    As I told the House on 23rd November, the chairmen of the nationalised fuel industries agreed to discontinue advertising, both national and local with certain exceptions, for a period of three months from 1st December, 1965. A general direction would not be appropriate.
    Sir J. Lucas: It is unfortunate that these people cannot get any more specialist coal than they had in 1962—the merchants are rationed for that. Does not the Minister agree that the Board ought to stop advertising more solid-fuel-burning appliances if they cannot provide the fuel?
    Mr. Lee: In general, I would agree with that principle; that is why I suggested no further advertising. But whilst there have been local difficulties in some of these things, overall the position has been maintained fairly well. I would advise the hon. Member to get in touch with the local suppliers on this issue.

    National Gas Grid
    Mr. Hornerasked the Minister of Power what steps he is taking to expedite the establishment of a national gas grid.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: As I informed the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd) on 31st January, a number of interconnections between boards are planned, and these could ultimately form part of a national grid.

    Underground Gas Holder
    Mr. Hornerasked the Minister of Power when the first underground gas holder will be in use.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Sutton Cold-field (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd) on 31st January.
    Mr. Horner: Can the Minister assure the House that in its planning and forward thinking in this respect the Gas Council is making the maximum use of the powers recently given to it by the House in the last Gas Act, after much procrastination on the part of the previous Administration?
    Mr. Lee: I think that the Gas Council is doing that, but I am in constant touch with it. I want the Council to proceed as rapidly as possible with interconnection of boards, the use of underground storage and the other facilities that we have given it. I am sure that it is very conscious of the need to press on with this work, and I can tell my hon. Friend that both the Gas Council and the Government are proceeding as rapidly as possible with these developments.
    Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are his plans, if any, for the storage of gas underground at Chilcomb near Winchester?
    Mr. Lee: I understand that the Council is looking at two sites, one in the Cotswolds and the other in Lincolnshire, but this is subject to a full analysis to guarantee safety, which cannot be done immediately, and until this is done it cannot proceed.

    Smokeless Fuel Supplies (Saffron Walden)
    Mr. Kirkasked the Minister of Power what steps he is taking to ensure adequate supplies of smokeless fuel in the Saffron Walden area.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Local supplies of smokeless fuels are matters for the suppliers.
    Mr. Kirk: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the suppliers have been

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    waiting for supplies, in some cases, since July and that it is about time that steps were taken from central sources to speed up the supply?
    Mr. Lee: I have looked at the hon. Member's constituency and found that it is not what we call a "black" area. No smokeless zones have therefore been proposed and it is rather surprising that there has been a shortage in that area.

    North Sea Gas
    Mr. Peytonasked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the Gas Council's negotiations for the purchase of gas found under the North Sea.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Peyton: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this delay is exceedingly disappointing, particularly in view of reports which have been circulating recently that he has made a right decision? Is he aware that I very much hope that he will speed up this matter because if there is further delay it will seriously discourage the exploitation of this very important national interest?
    Mr. Lee: I am under no illusions as to the need to get a hurried decision on this matter, but I want the proper decision when it comes. I do not think the hon. Member need worry too much that the delay will be much longer.

    West Midlands Gas Board (Chairman)
    Mr. Gurdenasked the Minister of Power whether he intends to accept the resignation which has been offered by Mr. Harold Leach, Chairman of the West Midlands Gas Board; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The hon. Member is misinformed. The Chairman of the West Midlands Gas Board has not offered his resignation.
    Mr. Gurden: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me if that is also true of Mr. Moyes, director of supplies, who has not been on his job? Could he also tell me where he thinks responsibility for this serious breakdown begins and ends? Does he intend to resign also?
    Mr. Lee: I am always willing to listen to informed criticism, especially of a very highly specialised technical industry like the gas industry. I have no doubt that the former President of the Birmingham and District Dairymen's Association is an authority on the matter.

    Gas Supplies, Scotland (Price)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Minister of Power how the price of gas in Scotland compares with the price in other areas.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Four boards have a higher average revenue per therm and seven lower.
    Mr. Taylor: Is the Minister aware that Scotland is facing an extra increase of 13 per cent.? What steps is he taking to protect consumers in Scotland from the inefficiency known there for years and outlined in the prices Report No. 7?
    Mr. Lee: I think the hon. Member is being unfair. He ought to give all the conclusions of Report No. 7 rather than be so selective.

    Electricity Industry (Advertising)
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Power what representation he has received urging him to extend his policy of discontinuing advertising by the electricity industry; and what reply he has sent.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: None, Sir.
    Mr. Farr: Can the Minister say why the Electricity Board has stopped advertising the sale of electricity for use in off-peak hours by storage heaters? Is this yet another example of Socialist Government and nationalised industry failing to show initiative?
    Mr. Lee: What should we do with the party opposite? A few Questions ago I was told how right it was to do it, but that it was done too late. We asked the Board if it would agree to a cessation by a certain date. It was not at that stage possible to separate from the rest all the advertising propaganda which had been arranged for off-peak work. We had therefore to stop it all, as we did.
    Mr. Peyton: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his anxieties about

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    what to do with the party opposite are entirely reciprocated?
    Mr. Lee: I think the hon. Member had more cause for that than I had.

    Dungeness B Nuclear Power Station
    Mr. Websterasked the Minister of Power if he will circulate the costing criteria of the nuclear power station, Dungeness B, to international nuclear energy agencies in order to assist in the obtaining of common criteria in the costing of such constructions.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Copies of the brochure published by the Central Electricity Generating Board last summer on the appraisal of the technical and economic aspects of Dungeness B nuclear power station were sent to the European Nuclear Energy Agency and to the International Atomic Energy Agency; they were also very widely distributed to people and organisations both at home and abroad who were likely to be interested.
    Mr. Webster: In view of the fact that there is likely to be a tenfold increase in nuclear power generated in Europe in the next six years and now we are in a cost-advantageous position, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I very much regretted that in a debate last week in Strasbourg it was shown that the Nuclear Energy Agency did not seem to be aware of these figures?
    Mr. Lee: I am surprised at that. The brochure was issued in several languages. If we can do anything further to assist in the matter we shall, because we are as anxious as the hon. Member is to get these exports. With the kind of coverage we gave I am pretty sure they knew. Maybe they wanted to pretend that they did not know too much about it.

    TREASURY AND DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
    Sir R. Nugentasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the growing uncertainty in the economic field, he will take steps to combine the Treasury and the Department of Economic Affairs into one Ministry.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I do not accept the right hon.
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    Member's premise. The Answer to the rest of the Question is "No, Sir."
    Sir R. Nugent: Is the Prime Minister aware that when faced with rising incomes and near-stagnant production we have exactly the reverse of what is needed to bring our trading account into balance this year and to start repaying our borrowings from overseas? Would he not do better to bring the economic accelerator and the brake under the control of the same pair of feet?
    The Prime Minister: Our experience over many years has been that, apart from election times, having them under the same pair of feet has always meant that it was the brake and never the accelerator that was used.

    SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the enhanced responsibilities of the Minister of Technology for the introduction and support of science-based technology in the engineering industry, he will now extend his responsibilities to include the shipbuilding industry.
    The Prime Minister: I think we should await the Report of the Geddes Committee on the shipbuilding industry before deciding whether any changes in Ministerial responsibility are desirable.
    Mrs. Shod: In view of the urgent need to modernise the shipbuilding industry, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the public ownership of this industry under my right hon. Friend would provide a much better solution than there has been formerly and that it would be acceptable to the nation and the unions?
    The Prime Minister: I thought my hon. Friend's Question related to sponsorship responsibilities and not to ownership of the industry. I agree with her about the importance of technological advance in this industry. That is why we are waiting for the Report of the Geddes Committee.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity of clarifying the responsibilities for the shipbuilding industry as they now exist? The Admiralty has some responsibility, so has the Board

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    of Trade, but the recent proposal for Fair-fields seemed to emananate entirely from the Department of Economic Affairs. Will the right hon. Gentleman clear this up?
    The Prime Minister: Responsibility for the shipbuilding industry is with the Board of Trade. The Admiralty has responsibility only as far as naval shipbuilding is concerned, particularly within its own dockyards. The question of the Fairfields decision, which I had hoped was welcomed by the whole House, arose out of the very serious regional problems—for which the Board of Trade is responsible—with the threat of the overnight closure of a major shipyard.
    Mr. Hogg: While fully accepting the necessity to await the Report of the Geddes Committee on this question, may I ask the Prime Minister to undertake that the Minister—whoever he is—responsible for this industry shall be wholeheartily in favour of the Government's incomes and prices policy?
    The Prime Minister: We are still awaiting a declaration by the Opposition on prices and incomes. I therefore think it does not lie in the mouth of the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) to bring in the question of incomes policy to the question of the shipbuilding industry.

    AID TO DEVELOPING COUNTRIES (SEVERANCE OF DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS)
    Mr. Kershawasked the Prime Minister what is now Her Majesty's Government's policy as regards financial and technical aid to countries which have broken off diplomatic relations with Great Britain; and whether he will make a statement.
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Prime Minister if he will cut off all aid to those countries that have broken off diplomatic relations with Great Britain.
    The Prime Minister: As to the Commonwealth countries concerned, I would refer hon. Members to the Answer I gave on 27th January to a Question by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) and, as to non-Commonwealth countries where our aid programme is much smaller, we are con-
    880
    tinuing to give technical assistance and meeting our formal commitments for capital aid to the extent that the necessary administrative arrangements are still possible.
    Mr. Kershaw: Whilst appreciating that humanitarian and, indeed, practical considerations arise in this matter, may I ask whether the Prime Minister realises that some of these aid programmes, such as the military ones, are in a different category and will he take a look at them?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, I agree that there is a difference as regards military programmes compared with economic programmes, though here, where particularly our Canadian colleagues are very much involved, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, when he thinks about it deeply, will realise that there may be very serious difficulties and risks in even doing anything about them.
    Brigadier Clarke: Does the Prime Minister realise that these countries only bite the hand that feeds them? [Interruption.] Will you do a little more to try to help your own kith and kin, instead of these people?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not put questions to me.
    The Prime Minister: In answer to the first part of the question, I did explain on previous occasions the reasons why I think it is right, subject to all the difficulties which are caused by the breaking up of relations, to keep on our teaching assistance programmes and other forms of economic assistance. Unfortunately, I could not quite hear the last three or four words of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question.
    Mr. Rose: Will my right hon. Friend go a little further than his previous reply and state that economic and technical aid will in future not be given with political considerations in mind?
    The Prime Minister: I think that it has always been the line of successive Governments in this country—and, indeed, it has been the line certainly of the United Nations—that, when an effort is made to link economic aid which is based on sheer human necessity to political strings, both the economic aid and, in the long run, the political aims one has in mind are injured.

    MINISTER OF LABOUR (TELEVISION INTERVIEW)
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Prime Minister whether the statement made by the Minister of Labour, on the subject of productivity and the use of manpower, in an interview shown on the 8.50 p.m. British Broadcasting Corporation television news on 5th January represents the Government's policy.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Gilmour: Why for the last three months has production been two points lower than it was last January?
    The Prime Minister: I am always trying to help the hon. Gentleman with his questions. The answer is that, as the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, the measures that we had to take last year to deal with the balance of payments crisis, which had essentially to be short-term measures because there were no other weapons left to us by the departing Government, were such that they did, and inevitably had to, lead to some restriction in production. This is the reason why, until we can get the other measures working for greater productivity in industry, production has not risen as we all hope it is going to.
    Mr. Heath: What is the Prime Minister going to do to answer the accusation of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that he and his colleagues are drifting and dreaming?
    The Prime Minister: That was not indeed my right hon. Friend's accusation. His accusation was that for very many years now we have had this dilemma, which the right hon. Gentleman not only did not know how to solve in office but still does not know how to solve in opposition, that when we get out of the stagnation into which they plunged us for so many years we run into balance of payments difficulties.

    MINISTRY OF AVIATION
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the future of the Ministry of Aviation.
    The Prime Minister: Not yet, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he judges the position to be that the role of this Ministry will be either an expanding one or a decreasing one? In any case, does he not think that the name of the Ministry, if not its function, will be increasingly a misnomer?
    The Prime Minister: As I have made clear in the House before, I think that this Ministry, which was set up at the beginning of the previous Parliament—and, Heaven knows, some of us supported its establishment—has turned out to be the wrong decision and that it should be, I think, over a period of time amalgamated with other Departments. This, I think, will be the policy that we should follow, but at the present time, not only in connection with the Defence Review, but also with the implementation and the working out of the Plowden Report, I think it will be necessary to keep it there for some little time yet. Longterm, I should have thought that it would have been right to amalgamate it with other Departments.

    NUCLEAR WEAPONS
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in narrowing the differences between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government on the terms of a treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons.
    The Prime Minister: We have been exploring with our allies how best we can move forward towards a non-proliferation treaty that will be acceptable to all concerned.
    Mr. Campbell: When the Prime Minister said on 27th July that the Government were about to table proposals, an event which did not happen, although the Geneva Conference was convened on that day, was he aware of the disagreement with the Americans and its significance?
    The Prime Minister: Yes. I have been aware for a long time that on one particular point we are not in complete agreement with the Americans; but we do not believe, as some hon. Members do and did, that this means that we should automatically trail along behind

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    them in all matters of disarmament. We are working hard to get agreement on these issues with our allies first and then to try to get a non-proliferation agreement thereafter based on our ideas.

    BUILDING MATERIALS
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Prime Minister what plans he has to improve the co-ordination between the Ministry of Public Building and Works and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in the use of building materials.
    The Prime Minister: None, Sir, since the present arrangements are satisfactory.
    Mr. Gilmour: Is not the Prime Minister aware that by a remarkable piece of purposive planning the Minister of Housing and Local Government has built 50,000 houses fewer than was expected by the Minister of Public Building and Works, with the result that there is a vast glut of bricks? Is this satisfactory co-ordination?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman, who obviously cannot have followed the exchanges which took place yesterday, should be aware that his facts are totally wrong on this. The facts were very fully explained by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works yesterday, and the hon. Gentleman will find that we shall need all the bricks for the fulfilment of our housing programme.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: How can the right hon. Gentleman regard co-ordination as satisfactory when at one and the same time bricks enough to build 30,000 houses have had to be stocked, brickworks have had to cease production, and the Minister of Housing has failed to achieve his predecessor's completions for last year by 17,000 houses?
    The Prime Minister: What I cannot understand is why the right hon. Gentleman still has not followed what was said yesterday on this point. First, the stocks of bricks are lower than they were two years ago under the right hon. Gentleman's Administration and, secondly, there were more closures of brickworks in 1964 than there were in 1965. With regard to the third part of the question, which we
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    have had so often from the right hon. Gentleman in late night statements and in other ways, as I have made clear a number of times the target of the right hon. Gentleman's Administration was one thing, but in fact we would have been very much further from the target, as they would have been, if we had not taken the measures which we took, and which they opposed, to stop office building and to stop other projects which were causing a shortage of labour for the housing programme.

    COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS (LAGOS CONFERENCE)
    Mr. Hefferasked the Prime Minister what was the outcome of the talks at the Lagos Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to similar Questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Rowland) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Waver-tree (Mr. Tilney) on 25th January.
    Mr. Heffer: Would my right hon. Friend indicate if the meeting of the education and technical experts as suggested in the communiqué has been held and what proposals they are putting forward?
    The Prime Minister: There was a meeting actually at Lagos of Ministers and others concerned with education and technical development. It was arising from that that we have now set up two standing committees of the Commonwealth Conference, one of them dealing with sanctions and the other dealing with these questions. As far as I am aware, the second one has not yet been fully constituted.

    INDIA AND PAKISTAN
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Prime Minister, in view of the action previously taken by Her Majesty's Government in the dispute, what recent efforts were made by the British Government to bring about a meeting in this country between India and Pakistan.
    The Prime Minister: President Ayub and Mr. Shastri met in this country during the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Meeting last June.
    Brigadier Clarke: Does the Prime Minister realise that he had an abject failure in the peace negotiations between India and Pakistan? Will he now consider asking Mr. Smith to go to Tashkent and meet him? He might do some good there.
    The Prime Minister: Apart from discovering that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has got the sense of humour we always suspected he might have, I will deal with the more serious part of his supplementary question, because it is a very serious one. During the fighting on the Kashmir situation, as I explained at the time—I thought that I had the full support of the House at the time—we felt that it was important that the initiatives taken by the United Nations should be followed and supported by all of us, and that any initiative which we very much considered we might have taken ourselves should De sacrificed and subordinated to that, otherwise there was the gravest danger of crossing the wires. That was why we ourselves did not intervene until the United Nations did achieve the ceasefire which in fact they achieved. The Soviet Government, well within their rights, decided to intervene. We felt that it would have been wrong for us to have done so, and this was the view of other members of the Commonwealth with whom we were in consultation. The Soviet Government did intervene. We in fact welcomed what they were able to achieve, but I still think it would have been wrong for us to have taken the initiative and thereby imperilled the more serious question of the cease-fire.
    Brigadier Clarke: May I thank the Prime Minister for that long explanation which told us nothing?
    Mr. Hooson: Was not the acceptance by India and Pakistan of Russia's good offices and not our own a recognition by those countries of the facts of life east of Suez, and is it not time that the Prime Minister revised his own defence obligations east of Suez?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. and learned Gentleman who, we know, has an obsession about anything east of Montgomery has, naturally, turned this very serious matter to suit his theories. I have explained why they accepted the offer of the good offices of the Soviet Union. But they were most ready to work with us last year in what at that time looked like an equally dangerous confrontation on the question of the Rann of Kutch. They accepted our good offices wholeheartedly and we worked with them on it. I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is stretching the facts too far in order to fit his theories.
    Mr. Heath: In contrast to the example which the Prime Minister has given of the successful negotiation over the Rann of Kutch, is it not the fact that, as a result of his statement during the conflict, there was a grave deterioration in Anglo-Indian relations which made it impossible for him or the Government to act as intermediary thereafter, and this was the real explanation of why the Soviet Union was able to act in that position? Will he and his Government now devote all their energies to restoring good relations between this country and India?
    The Prime Minister: We fully recognise the need to do everything in our power to improve relations between ourselves and India, but I cannot accept that the statement to which the right hon. Gentleman referred was the reason why it was wrong or impossible for us to act at that time. With our two Commonwealth colleagues, unless one supported the one against the other, one was an enemy, and this made it impossible for us in the particular case of Kashmir to act as mediator. The right hon. Gentleman, who has just been out there and had very detailed talks, will recall that, on his way to Pakistan and India, he was very hopeful of settling the Kashmir case himself single-handed, but he soon found out how difficult it was.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must proceed.

NORTH VIETNAM (UNITED STATES BOMBING)
Mr. Mendelson: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
"the support expressed by Her Majesty's Government for the resumption of bombing attacks against North Vietnam by the United States Government at a time when new proposals were being considered to invite the United Nations to act as mediator, and the newly threatened escalation of the conflict into a major international war in which, through the existing system of alliances, the safety of this country and of Her Majesty's subjects would be directly involved."
In my submission to you, Mr. Speaker, I shall confine myself entirely to the three points of order involved in any such application for leave and not go into the policy aspects of the matter.
First, I submit that it is a definite matter of Government responsibility by virtue of the fact that, late last night, the Foreign Office published an official statement saying, in part,
"Consequently, Her Majesty's Government understand and support the decision of the United States Government to resume the bombing which they had suspended …"
Second, I submit that there is here also an extremely urgent matter in view of new factors which have entered the situation surrounding the Vietnam conflict in the past few days. We have had new proposals put forward from highly responsible sources to the President of the United States and to the Secretary-General of the United Nations that the United Nations should be brought in as a mediator and that a committee of neutral nations should be set up to try to get the two sides to the conference table.
It is at this moment that the President of the United States has ordered the resumption of these bombing attacks, and the comment of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, who is directly asked to implement these new proposals, is reported as follows:
"Secretary-General U Thant said today the resumption of the bombing of North Vietnam was likely to hamper diplomatic efforts to settle the conflict."
I submit, therefore, that it is essential that the House of Commons debate this
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matter today, because within the next 48 hours the Secretary-General of the United Nations will proceed to consultations in carrying out this policy and trying to get a number of neutrals to act to bring the two sides together.
Third, I submit that the matter is of great public importance to the people of this country in that, through the system of alliances, we are automatically involved if, tragically—everyone wants to avoid it—the conflict were to escalate into a major international war. For this reason, it is at this stage, when we might still hope to influence events, that we ought to be heard.
A great deal has been said recently about the importance of Parliament and the danger to Parliament of always seeming to debate important events long after they have passed and never being allowed to raise its voice, through Members of the House of Commons, at a time when events might still be influenced by our counsel and by our advice. The Executive is always eager to push aside the desire of the House to debate events in time. This is to be resisted by the House of Commons, and it is essential that at this stage, today, if my submission be granted, the House of Commons should bring its mind to bear upon this policy, should have the Government explain their position, and, equally important, have the Government listen to Parliament.
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for doing me the courtesy this morning of letting me know that he had it in mind to take some such step as he has now taken.
The hon. Gentleman seeks leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
"the support expressed by Her Majesty's Government for the resumption of bombing attacks against North Vietnam by the United States Government at a time when new proposals were being considered to invite the United Nations to act as mediator, and the newly threatened escalation of the conflict into a major international war in which, through the existing system of alliances, the safety of this country and of Her Majesty's subjects would be directly involved".
I fully understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety, but I could not hold this to be within the Standing Order except in defiance of precedent.

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Motions are at present out of order where the responsibility of the Government is not directly and immediately involved, or where a foreign Government is more directly responsible. The Select Committee on Procedure in 1959 considered these circumstances and held that the rule might be unduly restrictive in matters of foreign affairs. Here I refer to page 34 of the Report made to the House on 19th February, 1959. The House, however, refrained from adopting that suggestion, and the Chair is, therefore, bound by a long series of Rulings enforcing the restriction to which I have drawn attention.
The House will recall that on 15th June, 1965, an hon. Member sought to raise the subject of Vietnam because of the alleged failure of the Government of the day
"… to take immediate action through the United Nations, to stop the new acts of war … in Vietnam . . in pursuance of the newly-announced decisions of the Government of the United States of America."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th June, 1965; Vol. 714, c. 249.]
On that occasion, Mr. Speaker reminded the House that he was bound by precedent to disallow the application for lease to move the Adjournment. I must now give the same decision.

BILL PRESENTED
  VESSELS PROTECTION
  Bill to make it an offence to take away, to attempt to take away or to be a party to the taking away of, a vessel without authority; and for purposes connected therewith, presented by Mr. Gresham Cooke; supported by Dr. Reginald Bennett, Sir John Langford-Holt, Colonel Sir Harwood Harrison, Mr. E. L. Mallalieu, Mr. John Cronin, Mr. Grant-Ferris, Mr. Costain, Mr. Dudley Smith and Dr. Wyndham Davies; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11th February, and to be printed. [Bill 61.]

AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY (PLOWDEN REPORT)
3.41 p.m.
The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Frederick Mulley): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Aircraft Industry, 1964–65 (Command Paper No. 2853).
Captain L. P. S. Orr: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether you intend to call the Amendment—in line 3, at end to add
"but rejects the recommendations of the Committee relating to Short Brothers and Harland".
—standing in my name and the names of some of my hon. Friends?
Mr. Speaker: I had intended to make an announcement at the end of the Minister's speech, but to put the hon. Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) out of his misery, I will tell him now that I have not selected the Amendment.
Mr. Mulley: On 16th December last, when the Plowden Report was made available to the House, my predecessor expressed the thanks of the Government to Lord Plowden and the members of his Committee. Now that there has been time to study the implications of the Report in greater detail, I would like to add my personal thanks to the Committee for its sustained work and penetrating analysis of the problems facing the aircraft industry and for the thoughtful and comprehensive proposals put forward. These have been most helpful to the Government as a framework within which to formulate future policy and have more than vindicated my predecessor's decision to set up the Plowden Committee.
It was clear that the House desired an early opportunity to debate the Report and its far-reaching implications and to make known its views before any final decisions were taken by the Government on the more controversial aspects. Today, I propose to indicate the Government's views in general terms. I shall not present the precise formulation of policy, which must await further discussion and consideration and which will be presented to the House in due course. In seeking to meet the wishes of the House in this way I hope—but without too much confidence—that the Government will not be unduly criticised for not

891
presenting the House with final decisions on all the recommendations today.
Some of the recommendations—in particular, those relating to the possibility of Government participation in the ownership of the industry—have attracted a great deal of attention and may have obscured certain of the more fundamental aspects of the Report. I would like to discuss these before commenting on the detailed recommendations.
The situation which faced the Government when they came to office 15 months ago was that the aircraft industry was absorbing a disproportionate share of the country's resources. We were faced at the same time, with spiralling costs of projects, with financial losses on civil ventures and with falling exports. It was evident that a radical approach was necessary to the problems of the industry and that this necessitated changes in attitude as much as changes in policy.
In this situation, the primary task given to the Plowden Committee by my right hon. Friend was to determine the future place of the industry in the economy of the country and, indeed, to advise the Government whether it should have a place at all. The first question to which we have to address ourselves, therefore, is whether we still need an aircraft industry at all.
Since coming to office, the Government have had to take a number of very difficult and unpopular decisions. The military aircraft programme which we inherited was hopelessly overloaded and was so unrelated to the timing of the needs of the Royal Air Force that we therefore had no choice but to make some major cancellations. These, of course, affected the situation with which the Plowden Committee had to deal.
There could be no justification for delaying these decisions until the Plowden Committee had reported. Indeed, when the Committee was first set up, the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude), then the Opposition's principal spokesman on aviation, asked for and received from my right hon. Friend an assurance that the deliberations of the Committee would not be allowed to delay decisions on individual projects.
Mr. Victor Goodhew: What orders have been placed since these
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cancellations of British aircraft in the early part of last year?
Mr. Mulley: There is a Question on the Order Paper tomorrow. I think that it comes from the hon. Gentleman himself. I propose to give the full list then. There is a general rule that one should not anticipate Questions that hon. Members have put on the Order Paper. But if there is a demand for such a list, that can be attended to in the normal way.
Mr. Goodhew Mr. Goodhew rose—
Mr. Mulley: I am sorry. I cannot pursue that now.
Ever since the cancellations in the military aircraft programme there has been talk of the impending demise of the industry. I make it clear now beyond doubt that the Government fully accept the case for this country having a substantial aircraft industry, both military and civil, and that we intend to carry out policies designed to make that possible.
I would like to enlarge two or three sentences which are among the most striking in the Plowden Report. After describing the difficulties facing the industry, the Report, in paragraph 207, says:
"Although this dilemma is particularly sharp in the aircraft industry, it is by no means confined to aircraft. It is true in a greater or lesser degree of every technologically advanced industry in this country. It is inherent in the whole position of the United Kingdom in the world economy in the second half of the twentieth century. For this reason we cannot afford to admit defeat in this particular industry while hoping that solutions will be found in others."
The Government fully and unequivocally accept that analysis.
Let us be in no doubt that we are facing today a sustained and determined competition in world markets. I am convinced that the industry itself will meet this challenge and will do so successfully. It is the duty of the Government to help it to do so—not by feather bedding but by helping to create an environment in which the industry can save itself by its own exertions. This we intend to do.
In recent years the industry has been receiving substantial support from public funds. This has taken two main forms. Military aircraft have been developed at high cost in relation to the numbers required and much of the money contributed by the Government towards

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launching new civil aircraft has not been recovered from sales. This support has hitherto been justified on the grounds of the special benefits that the industry has afforded the country. The value of this indirect contribution to the community in the past has unquestionably been considerable. But, as the central analysis of the Report shows, it is diminishing.
The traditional arguments for maintaining an aircraft industry for reasons of defence, general technology and balance of payments have become weaker and the Plowden Committee concluded that the level of support that the industry has been receiving is too high and should be reduced. It recognised that, in the short term, some special measure might be needed to avoid an uncontrolled rundown in the industry, but considered that the aim of policy should be to create conditions in which the industry can, in the long term—and I stress that we cannot achieve this overnight—thrive with no more support or protection than that given to comparable industries in Britain.
This is perhaps the key recommendation of the Plowden Report. It marks a turning point in attitudes towards the industry, which in some ways has been the prisoner of its own past achievement. There have been those both in the industry and outside who during recent years have asserted that, whatever happens and whatever the cost, we must maintain the aircraft industry. That is not so and it is no compliment to the industry to suggest that it is necessary. The industry must become as competitive as any other industry and I have no doubt that it has the ability, the technical skills and the determination to do so.
Mr. Cranley Onslow: It would help if the hon. Gentleman could define what he means by the word "comparable" in this context. Can he tell us of one or two other comparable industries?
Mr. Mulley: The shortest and simplest example may be that of industries with similar technological problems and similar technological contributions to make to our economy.
Mr. Onslow: Such as?
Mr. Mulley: I was quoting from the Report, but the kind of industries which
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I imagine would be comparable are some of the electronic industries, the computer industry, for example.
The basic problem, says the Committee, is that the British home market is too small and does not call for the volume of production needed to bear the extremely high initial costs of developing and producing aircraft. Of course, in addition there have been shortcomings on the part of both the industry and the Government. The Report does not mince words on this matter. Clearly, everything possible must be done to correct these failings in future. But with all this the Committee's considered view was:
"There is little prospect for substantially increased sales for the British industry standing on its own."
We must turn to collaboration with other countries as the principal means of improving the relationship between the size of market and development and initial production costs and as the key to remaining a major force in aviation.
The Committee goes on to say that the major effort in future collaboration should be towards an association between the British and other European industries in a European aircraft industry. This does not imply, of course, that we should no longer try to collaborate with the United States. The agreement on the advanced lift engine, signed last October, is a good example of such collaboration, and we hope that there will be others.
Collaboration with Europe has been established policy for some years and we must continue to give priority to it. A great deal has already been achieved on a bilateral basis. We are working on a number of aircraft, engine and guided weapon projects with France, Germany and the Netherlands. My predecessor had most encouraging talks in Bonn just before Christmas and I myself look forward to visiting Paris on 17th February for discussions with M. Pisani, the new French Minister responsible, on the project which has become known as the airbus, a project which, it is already clear, will depend on such co-operation.
Other European countries are in substantially the same dilemma as Britain and this identity of interests should draw us together. There are many practical difficulties in multilateral collaboration,

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but they must be overcome if a strong aircraft industry is to survive in Europe. The prize is great and we are determined to secure it.
We shall pursue the proposal in the Report for a European conference, but, of course, careful and detailed preparation is essential if an undertaking of this kind is to achieve practical results. This will take time and I doubt whether it would be sensible to arrange a conference before the end of this year, or, perhaps, early next.
The second broad policy proposed by the Plowden Committee is concentration on projects for which development costs are not disproportionate to the market. This may seem a fairly obvious principle, but it was ignored to our cost when the TSR2 was developed as a national project. Britain is unlikely to be justified again in embarking alone on an expensive new major project. We must aim to collaborate with European partners on all military and all major civil types which have good economic prospects as European projects. The more costly the development of the project, the greater the markets will have to be to justify it. For the largest and most complex military projects and for large and costly long-range civil aircraft the Committee took the view that even an association with several European partners was not likely to provide an adequate economic basis for going ahead. In these cases, it recommends that we should buy American.
This seems to me to be going too far. This recommendation has been criticised by the industry, which fears that it could be interpreted so as to condemn us in future to tackling only second-rate projects. We certainly do not accept that interpretation. Of course, everything depends on what is meant by "the largest and most complex aircraft". I doubt whether it is profitable to argue about it in a hypothetical way. We must look at each project on its merits. The important thing is that we and our partners should adopt strict economic criteria in deciding which projects to work on.
What we actually embark on will be a matter to be settled in consultation with our partners. Much will depend on the speed with which a European industry becomes effective and the character of the
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propositions which emerge. We are already working on a number of important projects. The Jaguar strike trainer is already under development. Studies of the variable geometry aircraft are well advanced. We attach great importance to these projects for our future defence requirements.
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Can the right hon. Gentleman define a little further what he means by the strict economic criteria by which the Government would be guided?
Mr. Mulley: The strict economic criteria will depend very much on the particular project. With civil aircraft there must be a prospective possible market on completion of development. With military projects the whole economic position of the country will obviously have to be taken into account as well as the actual projected numbers and development costs.
Mr. Stratton Mills: Is this a variable economic factor?
Mr. Mulley: My experience of life, for what it is worth, is that there is no automatic economic formula which can be applied to every proposition which arises.
Mr. Julian Amery: The right hon. Gentleman spoke of studies of a variable geometry aircraft. It would help the House if he could say whether it is envisaged as a replacement for the Canberra or the Phantom, so that we can know what job it has to do.
Mr. Mulley: The right hon. Gentleman must not tempt me into trying to predict my right hon. Friend's defence review, but I can assure him that we did not go into this project without being quite satisfied that there was a need for this aircraft in our future military defence programme.
As I said, we attach great importance to these projects for our future defence requirements. The prospects for a European airbus are being carefully examined. We are, of course, also working with the French on the Concord. None of these is in any sense a second-rate project. There is a challenge to all of us, Governments and industries, to devise projects which have a wide appeal and which can be developed and produced economically.

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This leads me to the third main plank of the policy proposed by the Plowden Committee—a sustained drive to improve exports. This is essential no matter what degree of success is achieved with collaboration. The House will have noted with pleasure the export figures for 1965 at £145 million, about 50 per cent. over those for 1964. While the export negotiations are primarily matters for the companies concerned, the Government have played an active rôle in supporting them. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has devoted much time and skill to this work and I know that his efforts are appreciated by the industry. The valuable report of Sir Donald Stokes, on which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence made a statement last week, also bears on this.
There is a close similarity between the recommendations in both reports and arrangements are already in hand to implement them. The Committee also made recommendations touching on export credits. Until fairly recently the normal maximum credit allowed for a large jet aircraft was seven years from delivery. Some months ago it was decided that for the VC10 and the Trident this should, in appropriate cases, be extended to 10 years. These credit limits were again under review when the Plowden Report was received.
I can now tell the House that the Government have decided on a further extension. Where the buyer and the market are acceptable for this purpose, it will in future be open to the Export Credits Guarantee Department to provide cover on 10-year terms for the B.A.C.111 as well as for the two larger aircraft whenever such credit is commercially appropriate. This is the main framework of policy—international collaboration on economically sound projects allied to the maximum export drive.
I will now deal with some of the other aspects of the Report, taking civil aircraft first. The Committee thought that the immediate prospects were not favourable, but that the possible longer-term rewards made the effort of remaining in the business worthwhile. It proposed the same broad policy of European collaboration as for military aircraft. As regards Government financial assistance to the launching costs of civil aircraft it endorsed existing Government policy of seeking at least
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a 50 per cent. contribution from manufacturers though acknowledging that in some cases the Government might have to pay more than half. I am sure that the 50–50 arrangement should remain the general policy. The Committee enjoins the Government, as soon as the results of the defence review are known, to take the industry fully into their confidence about future military procurement plans. We shall be doing this in order to provide a programme with more stability than in recent years.
The industry attaches great importance to this and the whole purpose of my right hon. Friend's defence review is to provide a firm basis for our defence expenditure in the next decade. This should enable us to minimise the uncertainty in the field of military contracts, which I accept has been a great problem for the industry in the last decade. At the same time, we should not underestimate the difficulties of producing stability in defence procurement where programmes stretch over many years and where changes in commitments, serious technical difficulties and massive increases in cost may occur. We must, however, aim to take firm decisions as soon as possible and stick to them except where very compelling reasons to the contrary arise.
The Committee recommends that to avoid more delays Governments should be ready, in suitable cases, to approve the development of promising components and techniques in advance of the system into which they would fit. This is already our policy, as we have shown in signing the Anglo-American agreement on the advanced lift engine.
A number of recommendations were made by the Committee concerning the procurement procedures of the industry and efficiency within the industry generally. In particular it stressed the need to reduce the detailed, technical and financial control of the industry exercised by my Department. I have decided to have a joint examination of these problems, and am discussing them with the Society of British Aerospace Companies. At the same time, I must point out that these controls spring, in a large measure, from the general requirements of this House, and especially the Public Accounts Committee, for the control of public expenditure. I do not know to what extent, if at all, the House would be

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willing to relax them, whether there should be a Government shareholding in the industry or not. I am, however, willing to examine the whole problem and will do what is possible to seek improved procedures.
The Report touches on the problems of Short Bros. and Harland Ltd. This company has for several years faced the prospect of a severe decline in its work load as the programme on the Belfast freighter for the R.A.F. comes to an end. Notwithstanding action taken to minimise the decline by giving the company some sub-contract work on the R.A.F. VC10s, by the latter half of next year employment at the company is likely to drop to about half its present level. Work on the Fokker 28 and Phantom has also been secured, but is insufficient to prevent a fall in work from about next June. I believe that the management of the company must do its utmost to diversify, and measures to this end are under discussion with the Government.
These discussions will be greatly assisted by the recommendations for diversification which have been made by the consultants appointed for the purpose jointly by the company and the Government. I hope that Shorts will have a continuing part to play in the aircraft industry and I am considering with the chairman and his colleagues how this might best be achieved.
Captain Orr: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the recommendations made by the consultants. Could he tell us what they are?
Mr. Mulley: The consultants made a long report jointly to my right hon. Friend the First Secretary and the company, covering a wide range of matters. I could not possibly summarise them. It might be more appropriate for questions about it to be addressed to the Minister responsible.
Mr. Eric Lubbock: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman says that some short-term measures to sustain the company may be necessary, will he tell us what is the position with regard to the V.F.W. short-haul airliner?
Mr. Mulley: I thought that I had made that clear. This is one of the matters currently under discussion between my
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officials and the company and I would not want to prejudge the outcome of those discussions.
Mr. Stratton Mills: On Tuesday of last week the right hon. Gentleman issued a statement saying that it was not intended to proceed, as far as Short and Harlands were concerned, with the consortium dealing with the V.F.W. Has there been a change in the position or is it possible that there may be second thoughts on the matter?
Mr. Mulley: I made no such statement. What was said, very clearly, was that no decision on the first point of issue, that of whether such an aeroplane could be supported by the Government, irrespective of who made it, had been taken. No such decision has been taken. This is one of the matters which is under discussion with the company.
I come to the important question of the future size of the organisation, and the ownership of the industry. As I have already made clear, the Government see no case for supporting the industry at any particular size. The size of the industry, as the Plowden Committee says, must depend upon the amount of work it succeeds in obtaining. I cannot yet tell the House of any decisions on particular defence projects. These must await the completion of the defence review, but it is clear that reductions in defence expenditure must produce reductions in spending on military projects.
Nor do we know exactly what civil and export work the industry will succeed in obtaining. The future pattern of likely airline purchases is difficult to predict and the present generation of sub-sonic aircraft may continue for many years. Increasing public reaction to problems of noise may also be a factor in determining the adoption of new types. But from all the information currently available it seems clear that there will be a significant drop in the load of work on the industry.
In our present view, this points to a likely reduction from the present work force of about 250,000 employees to not more than 200,000 in 1970, and we would expect the airframe side of the industry to feel it most. Though this is a substantial reduction, the industry would still be a very large one. In absolute terms it would be about twice the size

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of the French industry. While the numbers employed seem certain to decline, it need not follow that the industry's contribution to higher technology diminishes also. Indeed, a smaller industry may depend more, and not less, on higher technology. It is against this background that the future organisation and ownership of the industry must be considered.
These are clearly the most controversial parts of the Report, and we must seek, as the Committee does, to put them in perspective. Proposals for the organisation and ownership are only the means achieve a more viable and efficient aircraft industry. They are not an end or policy in themselves. The range of options extends from the complete public ownership of the industry at one end to leaving everything as it is at the other, with innumerable permutations in between.
Mr. Robert Carr: It is important that we should be clear about this. The Minister says that the range of options extends from full-scale public ownership at one end. That is so in theory. If the Government were to consider that, they would be going right outside the Plowden Committee's recommendations, would they not?
Mr. Malley: The right hon. Gentleman should listen a little more carefully. I did not say what the Government's view was. I was merely saying that in the discussion which has taken place since the publication of the Report a number of views have been expressed that there should be the full range. As the Economist said last weekend, this is worthy of respectable debate. At the other end of the argument, there are no doubt those who say that we should leave everything as it is.
The Committee distinguished between the situation of the two main airframe companies and the rest of the industry and recommended that the Government should take a shareholding in these companies—B.A.C. and the airframe and guided weapons elements of Hawker Siddeley. The Report sets out a number of arguments in favour of this, though Mr. Aubrey Jones takes a contrary view in his ingeniously argued note of dissent.
If I may put in my own words what I regard as the crux of the argument, it is whether the Government should
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participate in the equity and management of an industry where they already provide so great a part of the working capital and take the critical decisions on projects. We consider that any partnership along these lines between the Government and the airframe companies should, if possible, be arranged on a mutually agreed basis and that the nature and terms of any Government participation should be settled in negotiations with the companies.
The Committee also thought that a merger of these airframe interests would offer scope for economies. It did not consider that the competition between the groups had been of great significance; the real competition, as we all know, comes from abroad. But, despite these considerations, the Committee felt that a decision on a merger could be made only when the future workload could be estimated with greater confidence. The Government have considered this question in the light of the basic analysis of the future of the industry and of the forecasts of future work since the Committee reported. This evidence points towards there being only one main airframe company in Britain.
This is not just because the workload is declining. It is also because as projects have become bigger and fewer there is a growing problem of maintaining a balanced workload, on design and production, in two separate groups. Since military business forms so important a part of the total work of the groups, the Government, in awarding contracts between the two, have pressed upon them many considerations other than that of which group is best fitted to undertake the work. These problems will get worse, not better, as the workload declines and as the number of projects continues to grow fewer. We cannot go on allocating contracts on the basis that it is Buggins' turn next.
It is sometimes argued that mergers in industry should come as a result of commercial forces in their own lime and manner. But it is doubtful whether a solution on these lines is realistic in the present situation. Both airframe groups are engaged on major projects for the Government and have considerable commitments to home and export customers. The matter cannot be left to the free forces of competition.

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We therefore see force in the argument that a merger of B.A.C. and the airframe interests of the Hawker Siddeley group would be in the public interest and should be brought about on agreed terms. I intend further to discuss this matter and the question of possible Government shareholding with the two companies in the near future.
Commander Anthony Courtney: Would the right hon. Gentleman say a word about light aircraft? Is he aware, on the one hand, that there is not a single pure British light aircraft in production today, and, on the other—the Chief Secretary to the Treasury may laugh, but this is a very important point—that there is a very large export potential, quite apart from the home market which is now almost entirely dominated by American light aircraft?
Mr. Mulley: I agree that it is important that we should develop a light aircraft industry. It is, I think, fair to say that the Beagle 206 is in production. Some numbers of it have already been sold.
Commander Courtney: It is not a light aircraft.
Mr. Mulley: I thought that it was a light aircraft. We cannot at this stage have an argument about terms. Beagle seems to me the best way to develop light aircraft in this country.
I have tried to indicate the Government's thinking on the most important of the recommendations of the Plowden Committee. The Report is, of course, a long one and makes a large number of detailed proposals. Many of these will, no doubt, be referred to by hon. Members in today's debate, and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with them when he winds up.
Mr. Lubbock: The right hon. Gentleman referred to the airframe companies and said that he thought that there should be a merger between B.A.C. and the airframe interests of Hawker Siddeley. He did not go on to deal with the position regarding Rolls Royce and Bristol Siddeley. Could he say something about that?
Mr. Mulley: Probably the hon. Gentleman should have realised that I did not deal with it simply because I had nothing to say on that theme.
Mrs. Shirley Williams: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the question of the merger between B.A.C. and the airframe interests of Hawker Siddeley, would he say whether he has anything further to add about their guided missile interests?
Mr. Mulley: Perhaps I did not make the matter clear. I mentioned that Hawker Siddeley had weapons interests, but as that group is organised, guided weapons form a separate company. In the case of B.A.C., guided weapons form a division but an integral part of the company. I will be discussing with the companies both the airframe interests and the guided weapons interests. However, as I made clear, the Government have not come to a decision on these issues.
The House cannot have it both ways. If hon. Members wish, as I think is right, that the House should express itself on a Report of such importance as this, they cannot expect me to open the debate by saying exactly what decisions have been reached. We want to pay regard to all the points of view which will be expressed in the debate.
There is one last thought which I should like to leave with the House. Whatever the difficulties facing the industry and the Government, we cannot afford not to overcome them. The Plow-den Committee emphasised this point most strikingly in paragraph 522 of its Report:
"Indeed, the aircraft industry may be conceived as today embodying the predicament, as it has long embodied the aspirations, of the United Kingdom in the world. If the aircraft industry's problems are not solved, they will simply have to be tackled again elsewhere, while in the meantime the nation will have lost much."
The Government accept this analysis and will do their part to discharge their share of the responsibility. If, as I confidently expect, the industry responds readily to the challenge which it faces, we can then go forward in a strengthened partnership; and the industry should emerge, as the Report advocates, smaller but stronger and make a valuable and

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continuing contribution not only to the British, but also to the European economy.
4.20 p.m.
Mr. Robert Carr: It is my pleasant duty first to give a welcome to the right hon. Gentleman, on behalf, I know, of hon. Members on both sides, on the occasion of his first speech in the House as Minister of Aviation. I feel with him. If I had been in his position I should not have liked to have had to make my first speech in this context. It is not an easy task to open a debate the main purpose of which is to take the views of Parliament rather than to announce Government decisions. We appreciate the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has kept within those terms of reference.
Because it is the object of our debate today to collect the views of Parliament on this subject, I shall concentrate upon giving the views of the Opposition rather than entering into an argument point by point with many of the things that the Minister has said. Before I come to that, however, I think that the House and the country must set into its proper context the debate which we are having and the work which the Plowden Committee had to do.
By their cancellations of projects last year the Government deliberately created a vacuum in the industry without first having formed any idea of how that vacuum should be filled. In addition to the obvious wreckage in the industry caused by their actions, one of their most serious effects and one of the hardest to put right in the future has been the damage done to the credibility of the British aircraft industry in the eyes of the world.
Customers doubt whether it is any longer safe to buy current British aircraft and potential collaborators wonder whether there will be any British industry worth collaborating with in the future. Meanwhile, the sadness of the matter is that the salesmen of the United States industry have been rejoicing as they watch their chief competitor being delivered into their hands.
I sympathise with the Minister. He has to face the consequences of the disastrous legacy from the doings of the present Secretary of State for Defence and his
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own predecessor, whom, in spite of his doings, we are glad to see for his courtesy in coming here today.
What nonsense the Government's actions during the past year make of that flatulent talk of which we heard so much about plans poised ready for instant action and encouraging a science-based industrial revolution. Incredible though it now seems, hon. Members opposite used once to deplore the brain-drain. Now, they actively encourage it.
That is the sad context in which the Plowden Committee had to attempt its task. Their Report contains much valuable information and excellent analysis of the problems which face the industry. Many of its practical recommendations are also most valuable. I wish, on behalf of the Opposition, as the Minister did, to thank Lord Plowden and his Committee for the hard and inevitably rather thankless and difficult task which they have undertaken. In the criticism which must be made of the Report, I hope that genuine thanks for the work which has been most valuable will not be overborne.
We have to admit that overall the Report is seriously inadequate. We needed in this country a series of positive long-term objectives of the kind which the United States Government and industry appeared to obtain from their 1961 inquiry Project Horizon. What we have, unfortunately, is more a series of non-objectives.
That is not the fault of the Plowden Committee, because in our opinion it was given an almost impossible task to do. Three major new military projects which existed at the time the Plowden Committee was set up were all cancelled within four months of the Committee coming into being. The Committee was not told, even in the broadest terms, by the Government what the future military workload for the industry might be, yet 70 per cent. or more of the industry's workload in the past, in the present and in the future is made up of military orders. It was impossible for the Committee to do its task properly in that sort of vacuum.
On top of that, as the Committee made clear in at least four paragraphs of its Report, it was not given adequate time to do the job which it should have done, and we cannot blame it for that. Also,

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for the Committee to do its task properly, it should have been given the services of independent, highly-qualified teams to probe in depth the technical, managerial and economic aspects of the problem. It was not given any such resources. Therefore, for all these reasons, which were imposed upon the Committee by the Government and were not of its own making, we have from the Committee a hurried and incomplete job.
Some subjects are omitted altogether from the Report—for example, electronic equipment. Other subjects are dealt with only superficially—for example, efficiency of the industry, Government organisation and procurement methods, guided weapons and space. Some of the Committee's recommendations conflict with the analysis in the body of the Report and the whole Report is backed up by much too little investigation in the field. The Committee had time to visit only one aircraft factory and, in spite of the essential part which, in its Report, it attaches to European co-operation, time to visit only two European countries.
Hanging over much of the Report is a feeling of gloom and compromise accepted under the relentless pressure of time and circumstance. Nowhere is this demonstrated more clearly than in the recommendation regarding partial State ownership of the aeroplane industry. One member of the Committee rejects it altogether. The remainder are divided about the extent to which it should obtain.
We in the Opposition reject the suggestion absolutely and on this point we fully endorse the Minority Report by Mr. Aubrey Jones. The proposal for partial State ownership is, first, irrelevant to the main problems which the Committee diagnoses. It is extraordinarily naïve to think that it could remove the problem of excessive bureaucratic control with which the Committee was so rightly concerned.
The raising of partial State ownership as a question inevitably causes long negotiations and delay, perhaps controversial delay, when what is needed above all is rapid decision. Our most important objection is that partial State ownership would compromise the independent power of the Government as the industry's dominant customer, a power which, as I
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shall show, should in our opinion be the chief instrument both for the making and for the implementation of policy.
The starting point of policy in this field is the basic question which only a British Government can answer: is it one of our long-term national objectives to have a technically advanced aircraft industry? I want to make it clear that the Conservative answer to that question is an unequivocal "yes". Yes, because it is essential to our defence; yes, because of the traditional importance to Britain of being in the van of world communications; yes, because it is an industry for whose products there is an expanding world demand; yes, because it is an industry with great potential for earning exports and for saving imports; and yes, because of its high technological fallout.
We welcome the fact that the Plowden Report agrees with us on that basic question, when it says, in paragraph 206:
"it is exactly the sort of industry on which Britain should concentrate."
We regret that, having made that very true statement in paragraph 206, some of the Committee's major recommendations seem illogically at variance with it.
We agree with Plowden and with what the Minister said today, that the aircraft industry is one of a number in Britain and in Europe at a vital crossroads in history, and the way that we react to the problem will probably be a test case of great importance to the future. The way that we have to react to it is with our heads, sensibly. What I suggest to the House is that there has also to be a touch of heart in our reaction as well.
We welcome the Minister's assurance that the Government also agree in saying "yes" to the need for an aircraft industry of an advanced technical nature, but we cannot help remember that that has been said before and that they have done the exact opposite. The new Minister must now give proof that this time they are in earnest. He must renounce the old way and follow up this debate quickly by committing the Government to a firm long-term programme of projects for the industry.
Having answered that first basic question in the affirmative, we must turn to the second one, which is what sort of industry is it that we want to have?

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First, what scope should it have? We agree with the Plowden Report that neither Britain nor Europe as a whole should in future try to be self-sufficient in the supply of their own aircraft on the military or civil sides. But we disagree emphatically with the Plowden Committee—and I was delighted to hear the Minister express his disagreement as well—that we should never in future undertake any of the larger and most complex projects.
We must retain capability at the highest level for defence reasons; because of the close connection between civil and military developments; because it is the only basis on which we can be attractive partners to other countries in Europe and because, on the Committee's own argument, we should be most unlikely to maintain for long on any other basis, the ability which the Committee desires, to produce engines and equipment suitable for incorporation in the most sophisticated planes produced by other countries.
The cost of maintaining at least one really advanced project in the European programme is a price which we and any partners who will come with us in Europe must be prepared to pay if, in the long run, we in Europe wish to avoid utter dependence on the United States of America.
So much for the scope. What about the size of the industry? Obviously, there may have to be some contractions in it. But I do not feel that we can tell about that in advance of a decision on the future programme. We reject setting any arbitrary size in advance. It seemed to me that the Minister appeared to reject that also and then, a few sentences later, he gave a figure. I do not believe that any figure should be given until we know what the advance programme is to be.
Mr. Mulley: Perhaps I can help the right hon. Gentleman. I thought that I had made it quite clear that the size of the industry will depend on its workload in that there are, particularly on the civil export side, a great number of imponderables. I thought, at the same time, that the House was entitled to know, as the figures were expressed in the Plowden Report, what the best view of my Department is on the future in
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the light of what we know and the judgments that we can exercise. I agree that the size depends on the workload.
Mr. Carr: As long as the Government are to proceed in that way, studying the work load and seeing what is needed, rather than starting with a figure and working the other way round, that is all right. Meanwhile, by mentioning a figure 50,000 people may wonder what will happen. Emphatically, we do not agree that any size should be fixed. That is a most important point. That is the view stated by the Plowden Report in paragraph 456, yet the Committee produces a totally inconsistent conclusion when it says that the future size of the industry should be fixed by reducing the amount of support to that given for comparable industries in Britain.
That is a meaningless formula, because there is no comparable industry in Britain and, when challenged, the Minister could not provide one.
Mr. Mulley: I did provide one.
Mr. Carr: We could have a separate debate about comparable industries and, if we are to talk about them, we ought to have a rational debate on what is the proper level of support for, say, the computer industry. It might be wrong. It might be too high or too low. But to bring down the aircraft industry to the level of some other without more rational investigation of the point would be wrong. We maintain that there is no comparable industry in Britain. There are in other countries, but the Committee did not attempt to suggest how much support they received.
I turn now to the structure of the industry. Should there be further mergers? The engine side of the industry looks to us to be soundly based, and we think that it should be left well alone. On the airframe side the evidence, superficially at least, seems to be in favour of a single main British producer. One the other hand, we have doubts about creating too large an organisation. We also believe that there is still scope for further rationalisation within the two main existing groups without putting them together in what may yet be an ill-digested form.
One thing is certain, and it is that a Conservative Government would not force such a merger artificially. Nor, however,

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would they share out the work for the sake of keeping two major firms in being. Let the Government, as customers, place their orders where they should go on merit and see what happens. Yes, let the wicked market work a little more than perhaps it has been allowed to in the past.
Mr. Mulley: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will help the House with his views on mergers and the allocation of contracts, and with his judgment after the mistakes made by his predecessors, particularly the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), who forced mergers on the industry and allocated orders on the Buggins' turn basis.
Mr. Carr: The views that I have expressed are those which we believe to be the right policy in the current situation, and that is the matter which we are discussing.
If we follow such a policy as I have recommended, and it should produce a merger situation, it might well be in the interests of the Government has customers to assist in the marriage provided that it is a real merger offering singleness of purpose and unified management, and not simply the gathering together of separate units under a new umbrella.
Within the overall picture, Short's, of Belfast, provides a special and difficult problem. The Government have wrecked the programme on which Shorts future until 1970 depended. Having done that, in view of the particular circumstances of employment, and so forth, in Northern Ireland, they have a duty, we submit, to do two things, and to do them quickly and firmly. The first is to make a definite announcement of policy and to stop hedging on a series of ad hoc half-decisions. We need a firm announcement of real policy instead of a series of hedges.
Secondly, the Government must not prevent Short's getting contracts which it is able to win on its own abilities in its own right. Some of us have grave suspicions that that is just what the Government have been up to in recent months.
Before I leave the question of the sort of industry that we want, I should say something about research backing, because it seems to me that the Plowden
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Committee's recommendation on this subject is, to put it mildly, very dubious. It recommends an arbitrary cut in research, without having made any market or technological evaluation. If we are to make any arbitrary cut, it might be applied to the staffs of the Ministries, but I would rather have seen no arbitrary recommendation for cuts. To make an arbitrary recommendation for cuts in research without having made any market or technological evaluation is sheer folly. In fact, a strong case can be made for saying—and it is a case which would need answering before any cuts were made—that an industry with a smaller and more selective programme for the future needs more and more intensified research effort if it is to select wisely and develop good planes quickly. I hope that that research recommendation will be looked at many times before there is any danger of it being accepted in the crude form in which it appears in the Report.
I turn now to the problem of how we should set about creating the sort of industry that we want. In our opinion the chief instrument of policy is the Government's power as a customer. The Government are a direct customer for about 70 per cent. of the industry's output, and in Britain, as in other countries, this dominant share of military projects seems likely to continue. The Government also have strong influence because of their provision of launching costs, and so on, over the remaining 20 per cent. to 30 per cent. of the civil work which makes up the industry's total order load. Thus it is the use of the Government's power as a customer which is their most direct and effective means both of making and of implementing policy.
That power is great, and in our opinion the Government need no other. For the Government to own part of the industry would not add to their effective power. It would merely compromise their power as a customer, and would introduce a perpetual conflict of interests when making decisions. Although the history of Short's is not entirely comparable, there are surely some painful lessons to be learned from what I am saying.
Mr. F. A. Burden: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that because of the unique position in which the Government find themselves, taking

913
as they do 70 per cent, of the production of the aircraft industry, they not only have tremendous strength, but have considerable responsibilities for ensuring that manufacturers have stability not only in the amount of work which they turn out, but the way in which those contracts are handled, so that they can see into the future without the awful possibility of sudden changes and alterations in the Government's intentions?
Mr. Carr: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I hope that what I am about to say will satisfy him on that point.
For the aircraft industry to be successful, and for the public to get full value for money, the prime need on which we should concentrate almost all our attention is for the Government to organise themselves better as an efficient and demanding customer. No industry producing complex products with a long development time scale, such as the aircraft industry, can be efficient and dynamic unless it can foresee reasonable stability of demand over a long period ahead.
The first vital essential is for the Government to take and make known to the industry a firm decision regarding the minimum scale of their procurement expenditure for aerospace projects for at least five years ahead, and to commit themselves to a policy of spending a major proportion of that procurement budget on buying British and European rather than American equipment. Having taken that basic policy decision, the Government must then set about ruthlessly reorganising themselves to spend the money more efficiently, and in the process put themselves in the position to demand much greater efficiency from the industry itself. In our opinion the industry in future must first be given the opportunity, and then be compelled, to look for its profits from production rather than from development, modifications, and prototypes. This is one of the things that has been wrong.
The reforms required in governmental organisation and procurement procedure have nothing to do with party political policies. They are bound up in the whole history and evolution of our Parliamentary, governmental, and Service systems. But this is where modernisation has to begin, and I hope that from this
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day forward both sides of the House, without making party points, can address themselves to this vital problem.
The Plowden Report makes some sensible recommendations in this field, with which we can all agree, for example, the need for stronger market research and technical intelligence services, much more regard to overseas markets when drawing up specifications, and better organised and stronger Government support for exports, when it comes however to the details of reorganisation the Plowden Report is, unfortunately, at its weakest both in analysis and in recommendation, and so I want to put forward some positive suggestions.
I cannot pretend that they will all necessarily work, but from experience outside this House, in industry, and from experience inside this House as Chairman for five years of one of the Subcommittees of the Estimates Committee, I believe that the sort of suggestions which I wish to put forward now are those which a Government ought seriously to consider and not turn down in the superficial sort of way which Governments, of both parties, have done in the past.
First, there should be greater continuity of control at every stage of a project. Frequent changes of personnel, particularly of Service officers, lead to delays and general inefficiency. This is a handicap which we can no longer afford. Career structures must be changed to allow for more continuity, however difficult it may be to do it.
Secondly, there should be incorporation in the Ministries concerned of more staff with industrial and higher technical experience. They should be incorporated not just as advisers, but as an integral part of the administrative hierarchy. It is not good enough to employ them just as advisers.
Thirdly, there should be closer and more effective association of technical and financial assessments of a project from its conception. The present tendency for these stages to be taken in series is fatal and runs contrary to the lessons of experience in managing large technological projects outside Government. The rigour of the assessment and the firmness of the commitment at every stage of the project should be just as firm on the financial side as on the technical side.

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Fourthly, there should be closer formal association of the industry with the Government Departments from the conception of a project. This is essential for the achievement of cost effectiveness. Industry nowadays can make almost anything if it is ordered to do so, and it is, therefore, vital to appreciate at an early stage that the cost in time and money in achieving the last 5 per cent. of performance can be out of all proportion to the benefit obtained. The best in this field can easily become the destroyer of the good, and power to resist the very best is one of the essential qualities which our organisation must acquire, and which I fear it has not often possessed in the past.
Fifthly, there should be greater direct responsibility for the execution of projects. Control by committee and detailed interference from many quarters have got to be thrown out of the window. There cannot any longer be any hedging on this point. Instead, control should be placed with a specific project group under the command of a project director who should be a man with extensive technical and wherever possible industrial, experience, and he should be given a really wide degree of personal authority within the discipline of an overall allocation of money.
This project group should include members representing all the functions involved, including that of financial control, but all the members of the group must clearly be under the authority and command of project director. Anybody who has gone into the question of the management of large projects outside the Government knows that this is an essential requirement for doing the job successfully, and that the Government procedures in this respect are many years out of date.
Sixthly, there must be more freedom on the part of the prime contractor to take responsibility concerning the choice and sub-contracting of components.
Seventhly, we must devise more effective incentive contracts. This may need specialist study. It is part and parcel of the problem of improving cost estimating techniques. The object should be to provide prime contractors with the opportunity of a much higher return on capital
916
than is at present allowed, if they are successful in meeting the targets of time and performance, but it must equally be to inflict on them much more severe penalties if they fail to meet those targets.
The vast amount of work going on at present in holding contracts, without fixed prices, is one of the chief curses of the present system. The awful paradox is that this position comes about in the name of protecting public money. In practice, it is the chief cause of wasting public money. I am sure that if a Government were to face the difficulties which the Minister mentioned in the closing part of his speech, and put this point squarely to the House, it would be prepared to give up the semblance of the public control of money for the reality of it.
Mr. Mulley: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his completely nonparty approach and for his very constructive suggestions. I hope that he will feel that we can have talks together about this and see how we can carry forward the objective on which we all agree. We must try to avoid some of the problems with which the industry and the Government are faced at the moment.
Mr. Carr: Certainly. My colleagues and I would welcome that.
My eighth suggestion is that we should have some relaxation of security. We burrow about like moles under layers of security which are largely unnecessary. In the United States many details of defence contracts which are security-barred here are available for information and discussion not only within Congress, but by outside experts. Similar exposure here could have an equally healthy effect on policy-making and execution, and could also have important commercial advantages in backing exports.
My last suggestion, which I hope will commend itself to hon. Members on both sides of the House, is that there should be stronger parliamentary control by the development of the Select Committee procedure. The Reports of Estimates Committees in the past have often made valuable recommendations which have not been acted upon. For example, the Report on Transport Aircraft, published and presented to the House almost

917
exactly two years prior to the presentation of the Plowden Report contained a number of recommendations which were very similar to those made by the Plow-den Committee. Some progress has been made in this direction by the recent development under which the Estimates Committee's Sub-committees are now to specialise in particular fields. That progress should go further.
Lastly, I want to say a word on Anglo-European co-operation. Hon. Members on this side of the House wholeheartedly support the Plowden Report in this principle. When we were in Government we set this in motion and we want to see it vigorously pursued. It is a great pity that the Plowden Committee did not analyse the problems involved and make specific recommendations for overcoming them.
Several practical warnings must be sounded if success is to be achieved. It would be only too easy for us, as politicians, to grasp at the concept of European co-operation as a lifebuoy to cling to, and then to find, in a few years' time, that we were no better off. Even if we conceive complete Anglo-European integration in the aerospace industries, the European home market will still be much smaller than that of the United States. Thus, sales of European products on a large scale in world markets are essential to success. Therefore, European projects must be able to compete with those of the United States in design, cost and speed of introduction.
The benefits of European co-operation in spreading research and development costs and in enlarging the home market would be outweighed if they were achieved at the cost of later delivery times or of having to have two production lines in different countries when one is all that is required. The present form of Anglo-French co-operation was a good way—perhaps the only way—to make a beginning, but in the long run I am convinced that full efficiency requires unified management, and that that will not be achieved by a system of control based on inter-governmental and inter-company committees.
Full efficiency will, in the end, be achieved only along one or both of two lines—either genuine mergers between companies in different countries or a division of projects to single prime con-
918
tractors in particular countries, backed by an undertaking from all the cooperating countries to buy the resulting products.
But European co-operation must start at the market end rather than the production end. Establishing common European requirements is the first essential step. That will be difficult enough over military projects, where Governments are themselves the direct customers. It will be even more difficult for civil projects, where airlines, even when nationalised, are independent entities, charged with a duty to act commercially and subject to international competition. It will be difficult, even if it were right, to force European airlines to buy a European aircraft if an American one were available at a time or with a cost effectiveness which suited them better. The current short range air bus project will perhaps prove to be a critical test case.
There is a lot of hard work and detailed negotiation to be done, and done urgently. The meeting of European Ministers of Aviation proposed by the Plowden Committee requires the most full and careful preparation.
I want to make four final points about Anglo-European co-operation. First, it can be no substitute for putting our own house in order. Secondly, Britain must go into it wholeheartedly or not at all. This means that we must show ourselves to be ready at times to sacrifice our own pet ideas and, above all, to buy some European aircraft, and not merely to sell British ones to Europe. In this context, the decision and the handling of the decision regarding the Spey/Mirage is much more important than the Government have yet seemed to realise.
Thirdly, while Anglo-French co-operation is a natural starting point, because of the size of the British and French industries, great care must be taken to bring in other European countries from the beginning, as paragraphs 255–257 of the Plowden Report make clear. Fourthly and finally, European co-operation must not become exclusive. We should not in the long run find exclusive Europeanism any more beneficial than exclusive nationalism.
The aircraft industry presents us with a very urgent problem, and it requires immediate action. The Government, by their own action, have destroyed the

919
stability and balance of the industry. It has no coherent programme for the future, as yet. The production costs and sales prospects of its current projects have been gravely damaged. I repeat that this deplorable position is the direct result of the present Government's actions. It is the Government's job to repair the damage.
We are grateful to the Government for giving Parliament the opportunity to express its view before fundamental decisions are taken, but having taken the views of Parliament today it will then be the responsibility of the Government to put forward strong and definite proposals of policy, which we say should fall into three main parts—first, a balanced programme of future development providing clear long-term goals and the benefits of the associated evolutionary development and manufacture associated with them; secondly, a programme of the action required to further the development of European co-operation; and, thirdly, a rescue operation to tide the industry over its present desperate situation—which has been created by the Government—until new long-term policy can be made effective.
The Opposition demand that the Government publish these proposals in the form of a White Paper which can be considered and then debated by Parliament. We also demand that this should be done quickly, before Easter at the very latest. The fulfilment of these demands is the very least which the national interest requires.
5.0 p.m.
Mr. John Cronin: The right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr) showed a limited enthusiasm for the Report of the Plowden Committee, but I am grateful to know that he is strongly in favour of our principal recommendation, which was Anglo-European collaboration. This is something to which we attached much importance. I am glad that we have a guarantee that we shall have the maximum co-operation from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite when these suggestions are transformed into policy.
The right hon. Gentleman made several constructive suggestions which I hope will be adopted, but when he said that the
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Government's power as a customer was the best means of implementing policy, I must remind him that the Government have had this power ever since the aircraft industry was born. Certainly, the power used by hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite when they they were the Government was not so effective that the aircraft industry did not require a careful investigation when the Labour Government came to power.
I thought that I ought to attempt to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I was a member of the Plowden Committee, but my speech represents entirely my own personal views. I do not propose to act as a spokesman for the Committee, because the Committee's views have been clearly put in the Report. Nevertheless, I intend to deal with some of the more contentious and controversial recommendations. I will also indulge in the luxury of dealing with them in an entirely non-party manner, as far as possible.
I should like, first of all to draw the attention of the House to the very hard work done by my former colleagues in the Plowden Committee. I attach no importance to my own share in this, because, like other hon. Members of the House, I am quite accustomed to sitting on Committees: this is part of our work. However, the other members of the Committee gave up much of their time and suffered a good deal of inconvenience and had to exhibit considerable patience during our investigations. I should like particularly to draw attention to the admirable work done by that superb public servant, Lord Plowden himself. It was his skill, patience and ability which went so far to producing our Report.
The Plowden Committee has received an unfavourable reception from some newspapers and limited enthusiasm for its Report has been shown by some hon. Members on the other side of the House. However, I should like to point out, as did the right hon. Member for Mitcham, that we started and finished our work in circumstances of considerable difficulty. The whole time that the Committee was sitting the aircraft industry was in a constant state of flux. There was the cancellation of the HS681, the P1154 and the TSR2 and the negotiations with France for the Jaguar and the variable geometry projects. All the time, the defence review was taking place and at

921
no time did we have any firm information as to what form that review would take.
At the same time, we were pressed continuously to produce our Report as rapidly as possible. The first date suggested was July last year and it was under considerable pressure that we actually produced the Report in November.
One of the criticisms which has been made by the Press is that the Plowden Committee did not find time to visit any factories in the aviation industry. This is not a very valid criticism. If one visits a factory—as most of us interested in aviation affairs have done from time to time—one sees workers milling and grinding parts and assembling them and many technical processes which convey little to the average person. I would suggest that the Plowden Committee was much more helpfully employed in getting representatives of the aviation industry to give their views in person, rather than in wasting the limited time at its disposal by actually going to factories.
The Plowden Report has left many questions unanswered. There is no doubt about this. We accept it. It is an interim Report compiled as a result of relatively brief investigations. No member of the Plowden Committee would suggest that it was the last word in wisdom on the aircraft industry. However, one of the criticisms of the Report is that it is supposed to have shown a certain amount of pessimism. I suggest that the state of the aircraft industry was far from satisfactory when the Plowden Committee was formed.
I welcome the information which we have had from the Minister of Aviation that last year there was a big increase in exports of British aviation products. Those figures were not available when the Committee sat, but the situation which we had to face was that the British share of world aviation exports had substantially decreased during the years before the Committee met. In fact, they decreased from 33 per cent. of the world total in 1959 to 14 per cent. in 1964.
Mr. Burden: Of course, this invariably happens. Industries producing highly technical articles have peaks followed by declines in that article, when other articles begin to sell. The 111 and VC10 were beginning to sell really well at this time.
Mr. Cronin: I appreciate the point that there are peaks and valleys in all technical industries, but it is obviously a source of disquiet when the movement appears to be largely downwards.
There are some obvious reasons for this. First of all, the United States aircraft industry is a colossus with which it is difficult to compete. It produces 80 per cent. of world production of aviation products. From the point of view of output, the United States aviation industry produces 3½ times more per man than the British aircraft industry. I am not suggesting that this is the fault of the British aircraft industry, but it is disquieting. One wants to discover how one can help.
The French aviation industry has about one-third of the manpower and is reputed to produce about half our total production. These figures may be a matter of some doubt: there must always be doubt about the accuracy of figures. But I suggest that the figures show that all is not well and that the Plowden Committee had a duty to adopt a sober attitude towards the condition of the British aircraft industry rather than one of somewhat irresponsible optimism.
One of our recommendations was that the purchase of the largest and most complex types of military aircraft and guided weapons should be made in the United States. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House, and certainly all the members of the Plowden Committee would be very happy if we could manufacture, economically and helpfully to the national interest, the more complex aircraft and guided weapons in the future. But the record over the last few years has been far from encouraging in this respect; there has been little ground for optimism.
The finest large passenger aircraft in the world is undoubtedly the VC10, but it seems likely that the manufacturers will suffer a substantial financial loss as a result of the manufacture of this aircraft. It seems probable, for that reason, that the total number of VC1Os manufactured will be less than would otherwise have been the case.
Sir Arthur Vere HarveyIt is pleasant to hear the hon. Gentleman praise the VC10, but is he altogether surprised that it is not selling when, 18 months ago, leaders of B.O.A.C. and others belittled this aircraft and told the world that it was no good?
Mr. Cronin: I seem to recollect that about 18 months ago, when standing where the right hon. Member for Mitcham was standing a few months ago, I expressed disquiet and indignation at the fact that the Government of the day had allowed the VC10 to be the subject of such remarks.
Mr. Neil Marten: Does the hon. Gentleman recall from which source those remarks came? Is he aware that they came from A.S.S.E.T., the union which seemed to be getting all the information about the discussions which B.O.A.C. was having?
Mr. Cronin: I recollect that the majority of the remarks which received the most publicity were made by the chairman of B.O.A.C., who was certainly in day-to-day consultation with the then Minister of Aviation and who would not have made them if he knew that they would have had the strongest Government disapproval.
But I am being diverted from my main point, which is that these large and complex developments have so far proved to be rather difficult. The TSR2, for instance, which was cancelled last May, proved enormously expensive and to carry a very heavy cost penalty if we purchased it. If it had been continued, the TSR2 would have cost £300 million to develop and each aircraft would have cost about £3 million. The F111, on the other hand, can be purchased off the shelf for about £2 million or so.
Mr. John Rankin: Would my hon. Friend give the House his authority for the statement that the F111 can be purchased for £2 million?
Mr. Cronin: I said "about £2 million". I am prepared to accept that it might be more. Nobody has yet fixed the final price of the F111. Suffice to say that it can be purchased much cheaper than the TSR2. If any hon. Member disputes that I hope that he will intervene now.
Mr. Burden: The hon. Gentleman must take into account the tremendous development cost of the TSR2, which had already been committed. The assessment which must be made is this: will the cost of the F111 be greater, taking account of the tremendous initial costs involved in the TSR2, particularly since the TSR2 was almost at the point of production?
Mr. Cronin: We could follow these financial ramifications indefinitely. I still adhere to my claim that it would have been more expensive to develop and buy the TSR2 than the F111 off the shelf.
One can go further back and think of our efforts in continental guided missiles. Hon. Gentlemen opposite will be familiar with the days of Blue Streak. I will not commit myself to saying how much Blue Streak actually cost, but it certainly went into millions of pounds, whereas Polaris missiles can be bought for a modest sum, certainly for much less than £1 million each. I hope that no hon. Member will contradict that.
It means that if we make all these complicated aircraft and missiles ourselves there is a heavy financial penalty to pay. This, therefore, simply means that the pilots, the users, will have a smaller number of aircraft available for a given expenditure—the Government must think in terms of what they will offer the user, the R.A.F. in numbers and quality, and what they will offer the country in cost.
I would suggest that there is considerable substance in the idea that large and complicated types of military aircraft and guided missiles should be purchased off the shelf in the United States—that is, unless it can be shown that they can be produced economically and in the public interest in this country.
The right hon. Member for Mitcham dealt with the question of mergers. I am, to some extent, in agreement with him. I have some doubts as to whether any useful purpose would be served by merging two aircraft companies which are utterly opposed to the whole idea of merger. I see the point that competition between the two airframe companies and their guided missiles divisions is to some extent hypothetical because the Government are obliged to keep them both fairly equally full of orders. At the same time, there could be competition, at least at the design stage, and this would be healthy because the unsuccessful company, from the design point of view, could receive substantial sub-contracts from the successful company.
Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: Why did not the hon. Gentleman express that view in the minority Report?
Mr. Cronin: That is a fair question. It should be remembered, first, that Plowden did not recommend that there should be a merger of the airframe companies and, secondly, that whenever one has a group of people sitting round a table there must be divergences of view which must be resolved in the general interest. A proliferation of minority reports reduces a report to an absolute farce.
I turn to the important question of the ownership of the airframe companies. There is no doubt that these companies have suffered considerably as a result of Government decisions, by both the present and former Governments. The managements of these companies have had to face the consequences. One cannot help feeling that if the Government had some definite financial interests in these companies the Government would be affected to a greater degree if they took a decision which hurt those companies. The Government would, therefore, be more careful in their making of decisions affecting the companies.
The main argument however concerns the whole question of financial and technical control. The airframe companies—indeed, the whole aircraft industry—has been subjected to the most meticulous and stringent financial controls which have often seriously interfered with the efficiency of those companies. The whole idea has been to make sure that the companies did not make excessive profits at the expense of the public. This idea has always been behind the controls; for example, to prevent any repetition of the Ferranti incident. But if the public, through the Government, were the recipients of part of this profit, the necessity for these stringent controls would be less than otherwise would be the case. This is the principal reason for having some degree of public ownership of the airframe companies.
The nature of public ownership must be a matter of careful consideration. I should be very strongly opposed to any outright nationalisation. I think that the most useful form of public ownership would lie in the Government taking part of the equity of the airframe companies, with the ability to appoint directors. I can reassure hon. and right hon. Members opposite that such a step has, from their
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point of view, the most respectable antecedents. Sir Winston Churchill adopted this mechanism when dealing with British Petroleum before the First World War—
Mr. Onslow: But the hon. Member will recollect that B.P.s major customer is not the Government. Could he assist the House by telling us, as a member of the Plowden Committee, what he and the Committee meant by "comparable"? I can recall at least four places in the Report that stress the unique qualities of the industry and separate it from the electronics industry.
Mr. Cronin: The hon. Gentleman diverts me from my point. I can only refer him to the ordinary English dictionary definition of "comparable".
On public ownership, I suggest that the Government could certainly do worse than follow the example of Sir Winston Churchill before the First World War, purchase some of the equity of the airframe companies and put some directors on the board. I should not like to see their day-to-day running under direct Government or Parliamentary control, as that would make their position intolerably difficult The industry has to make the most advanced technological and involved commercial decisions, which are not the province of civil servants or Members of Parliament. There should, therefore, be no question of nationalisation, or of any form of ownership that would bring the airframe companies under direct day-to-day Ministerial control. That would be most undesirable.
The industry needs two things very desperately at present. The first is a decision with regard to Government policy. That is most urgent. It is not merely a question of the aircraft industry itself; the eyes of the world are on the industry, and the present state of indecision as to its future must be having a prejudicial effect on export markets.
There is also a great need for more definite and early decisions to be made throughout the life of every project in the industry. As far as I know, management is never consulted when requirements are made for military aircraft. There are often very long delays between the initial studies and the decision to go ahead. These projects are often of an unnecessarily complicated nature and

927
made to contain very many specifications that add enormously to the complexity of the aircraft that is the subject of the project.
We took some evidence in the Committee of a somewhat surprising nature. For instance, we were informed that on a certain occasion a committee met to study the replacement of a certain military aircraft. Hon. Members will appreciate that large committees always do this kind of work slowly; the smaller the committee the quicker the decisions, and vice versa. One might, therefore, feel some doubts on hearing that a committee consisted of more than 20 or 30 people, but in order to decide what should be the replacement of the aircraft in question a committee met consisting of 104 people.
I suggest that such a committee of such membership shows that the grip of Whitehall upon the aviation industry could usefully be relaxed a little, and that decisions could be made more expeditiously by far fewer people. This committee of 104 members is not so very extraordinary. I understand from the evidence that committees of over 40 members are common form when deciding military aircraft requirements. This reduces the procurement of military aircraft to a complete Babel. The sooner it stops the better.
Above all, the industry needs stability nothing can be more important than that. We know that there have been most extensive cancellations, with very wide-ranging effects—the HS68I, the P1154 and the TSR2. We know that 45 VC1Os were ordered originally, and then the order was reduced. The present situation is that 12 standards and 17 supers have been ordered, 10 are in abeyance and no one knows what is to happen about them. What company in any business can budget usefully and economically for the future when under the constant strain of cancellation of orders?
I hope that hon. Members opposite who applauded at this point will also agree with me that before the present Government took office the situation was equally unsatisfactory. I recollect that on 17th June, 1963, I asked the right hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) how many cancellations there had been since 1951 and their total value. In his Written Answer in column 7 of
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the OFFICIAL REPORT he told me that 33 projects had been cancelled, and that their total value was £230 million. Such a pace of cancelling projects right and left must reduce the industry to chaos. Whatever Government may be responsible, this practice should stop. The industry given the most complete stability possible.
We must remember that, above all, the aircraft industry is one that can use the country's talents to the maximum extent. It is labour intensive, it uses few raw materials and it can be of great help and effect in the vital export market. It is ready and willing to do its job, and merely wants the co-operation of the Government and this House. I hope that it will get more of that co-operation.
5.28 p.m.
Sir Lionel Heald: I am glad to have this opportunity of following the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin), particularly in his final remarks, and also, of course, because he was a member of the Plowden Committee. I should like, first, to make it quite clear that my concern in this debate is not only for the aircraft companies involved, still less any individual manufacturer, but for the whole of this great industry, from the board room to the shop floor; and also for the very large number of people outside the actual industry who depend upon it in one way or another, directly or indirectly, for their livelihood. That brings the numbers of those concerned to a very much larger total than the 250,000 people mentioned by the hon. Member.
I therefore have a very strong constituency interest in this subject, because the striking increase in both the population and the prosperity of the Chertsey area has undoubtedly grown up mainly round the B.A.C. factory at Brooklands, which is still known as Vickers. I must add at once that it is not only my own constituency that is involved. The aircraft factory itself is on the other side of the railway and is, therefore, in the safe and responsible hands of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown). My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) is affected in the same way as I am, in that a number of his constituents go to the works every day, and many, as in my

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own constituency, are engaged in auxiliary industries which depend for their whole existence on the aircraft industry. There are also all the traders and merchants, and all those who supply the families of the people actually engaged in the industry. So it is a very great industry and has a very great human interest in it.
The result is that the announcement of the appointment of the Plowden Committee was a very grave matter for these people. It is worth reminding ourselves of the situation at that time. The terms of reference asked the question at the outset,
"What should be the future place and organisation of the aircraft industry in relation to the general economy of the country?"
If we cast our minds back, I think we shall remember, although political memories are often short in these matters, that at the time when the Committee was set up, rightly or wrongly, there was a widespread belief that the Government were contemplating the shut-down of the whole industry. We need not go back to those days in detail, but it is impossible to forget such a phrase as "prestige project" which nearly brought the whole possibility of collaboration with France over the Concord to an end.
It was at that time, though again rightly or wrongly, that the Government were relying on technical advisers who, however pure their motives, were representing that we should completely sell out to the United States. I believe and always have done that the Plowden Committee was set up very properly and constitutionally by the Government to get an independent view on one fundamental point, whether we should or should not continue to have an aircraft industry. We ought in criticising the Plowden Committee, as certainly we have to in certain respects, to remember that that was what the Committee was set up for. It is not surprising, in view of the shortness of the time at its disposal and the urgent request for the Report, that it was not in fact able to go very far beyond that firm recommendation, except in questions of general principle.
I do not think I need, therefore, stress the fundamental importance of this clear recommendation of the Plowden Committee against the scrapping of the in-
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dustry. Whatever anyone may say or think about the Report from various technical points of view, everyone interested in the aircraft industry should rejoice at this recommendation. The Committee put that recommendation in moderate and restrained terms, but there is no doubt what is recommended and it is no less impressive. In paragraph 204 the Report says:
"we conclude that Britain would suffer a serious loss if policies were followed which resulted in the speedy withering away of the industry."
Paragraph 328 has been mentioned by the Minister and says that it is "worthwhile" for the industry to remain the producer of civil aircraft, for the country's sake. Even if there were nothing else in the Report, and I would not say that there is not, that is enough to justify our accepting this Report with gratitude. I hope it may be agreed—I believe it can—in all parts of the House that this House would wish the Government to accept this basic finding loyally and genuinely and set to work at once to find the best means of implementing it. I think we had that assurance from the Minister. His first reference to it was perhaps a little tentative and conditional, but I think at the end of his speech he made it quite clear that that would be the intention.
As to the Report itself, I believe it is accepted by those qualified to speak on the technical aspects as giving a sound and useful general analysis of the past, although it is fair to say that there is a feeling that some of the criticisms and judgments are based on rather meagre evidence and are matters perhaps more of opinion than actual evidence of fact. There also appears to be general acceptance of the principles and general considerations set out in paragraph 473 under five headings, but it is one thing to state general objects and principles and another thing to carry them out. I say with all due respect to the Committee that at that point the Report comes to a full stop, so far as concerns practical recommendations.
I do not think that a matter for condemnation. If it were to go into practical recommendations on that subject the Committee would have had to have very much further time and a very much deeper investigation. The result is, I

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think, worth stating. It is and must be that there can be no question of what might be called "putting the Report's recommendations into operation". There can, of course, be Royal Commissions and Committees which can be treated in that way as regards their reports. Indeed, sometimes actual statutory provisions have been drafted by committees, although whether they have always been satisfactory afterwards is another matter. But this is not such a case. I think the House would agree that it would be the greatest mistake for the Government to try to produce specific measures for attaining these objects without considerable discussion of the practical details with all those qualified to offer opinions. Some kind of working party arrangement is required for that purpose. Indeed, I understood the right hon. Gentleman to suggest something rather of that kind in one connection. I hope that in this debate—this is a personal opinion and may not find favour with some of my hon. and right hon. Friends—we shall not allow ourselves to become involved in doctrinal arguments about the precise means of ensuring proper Government participation. I should be quite satisfied to adopt the view expressed by the Society itself in a document which I imagine most hon. Members have had, and which certainly has been issued to the Press. In paragraph 11.3 it says:
"The Recommendations of the Report do not contain sufficient detail regarding the manner in which State participation would be arranged, the terms and conditions on which State capital would be introduced, the necessary protection to be provided to private shareholders and other vitally important features of such a novel development. In view of the close relationship which already exists between the industry and the Government, it would be premature to dismiss outright on doctrinaire grounds the Committee's suggestions."
That question is really a red herring and could easily divert us from more important matters. I say definitely, and I believe the hon. Member for Loughborough would agree, that not only would nationalisation be of no value, but a majority Government holding would not enable us to produce one more aircraft, still less to sell it. So I think we might forget about that today.
There are three points only—I know that a number of other hon. Members wish to speak in this debate—which I
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wish to raise. Two of them have not yet been mentioned. As to dependence on the United States, I was glad to hear what the Minister said because it seemed in the Report in sub-paragraph (d) of paragraph 527, concerning collaboration with Europe, that there was a conflict with, or that it would be stultified by subparagraph (f), which said that we should go to America for large projects. We were all glad to hear what the Minister said. The hon. Member for Loughborough seemed still to be rather clinging to the American hook, and we ought to have that reaffirmed.
It is also a pity that no reference is made in the Report to possible collaboration with Canada, Australia or India. In all these cases it may well be that there are some prospects of collaboration. Mention is made of a single central Government organisation for the promotion of exports. The mention is vague. Nothing else is said. One reason may be that it appears to be based on certain proposals made by Sir Donald Stokes which are not before the House. Therefore, the mention is not very illuminating. If it is an important matter, we should be told something about it. Possibly the Minister knows more about it.
Mr. Mulley: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman consults the statement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, he will see that there is a summary of Sir Donald's recommendations and of the action to follow. That is before the House. This will deal primarily, initially at any rate, with military aircraft. In my own Department I am centralising the responsibility for civil exports in one division and the head of that, a senior civil servant, will work very closely with the head of the new exports organisation in the Ministry of Defence, still to be appointed.
Sir L. Heald: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I apologise. Perhaps my mistake will lead to others being enlightened as well as myself. There is a recommendation in paragraph 527(p) about minimising delay in decision. I have searched the rest of the Report, but I cannot find any practical suggestions as to how this might be done. This is another way of asking: would it not be nice if we could do so? We would all

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agree on this, but the Report does not help very much.
Light aircraft have been mentioned. I am sure that this proposal will be welcomed by those interested in private flying and gliding. I speak as one who has been involved in that in a humble way for some years. Before we can make it worthwhile for manufacturers to offer light aircraft on a considerable scale in this country, we want a much more sympathetic altitude from the Government towards private flying. We cannot go into that today, but I cannot think that anybody would suggest that our experiences during the last year have been very encouraging. I believe that there is perhaps a prospect of better things in the future.
My point of view is a very simple one, but I think it is sound. I suggest that the Report of the Plowden Committee, apart from the fundamental recommendation, which is vital, for the genuine continuance and encouragement of the British aircraft industry, can best be regarded as providing a useful foundation for technical discussions on practical lines, but no more, and that the process of working out a practical scheme for the attainment of the object which I am sure we all have in mind must be undertaken between the Government, the industry and all others interested and concerned, on the basis, not of Government direction, but of real co-operation and partnership.
5.44 p.m.
Mr. John Rankin: May I from this side of the House welcome my right hon. Friend the Minister to his new appointment and wish him every success in it. I assure him that we shall give him all the support he deserves; and I am certain that he will deserve our full support.
I have listened to all the speeches which have been made today. All of them have been full of interest. I have heard many figures stated as the price which will have to be paid for the F111. When my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) said that it would cost £2 million, I was naturally interested and I interrupted my hon. Friend. I wondered on what authority he said that. It was very important, because I shall refer to that fact later. I wanted to be sure that my hon. Friend's figure was merely one of the rumours that
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occasionally circle around in these debates.
This is another of the rumours which I have read. It was made in the debate on 13th December. The actual words used were:
"The Mirage 4 is a high flying plane, and to bring it down to 200 to 300 ft. above sea level would require avionics of a vastly different type than those at present in that plane."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th Dec., 1965; Vol. 722, c. 999.]
That statement is sheer nonsense. I know this because, in the company of the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) and the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), I saw the Mirage 4 in flight. I saw it climbing up into the blue until it disappeared from sight. The two Members who were with me will confirm that we were still gazing into the heavens to see if there was any sight of the plane when suddenly it flashed past us almost above our heads.
Mr. Raphael Tuck: Beware—low-flying aircraft.
Mr. Rankin: All three of us, and the rest of the company, were startled to find that machine—one moment seen but not "gone for ever"—suddenly passing over our heads, not at supersonic speed, but to our ears it sounded like it. Not only can the plane fly at Mach 2, plus, with the power of delivering the obliterative weapon doubled—but it can also fly low and has strike qualities on the level, too. These things must be said, because later I want to consider the argument which is proceeding just now about the Spey/Mirage and the F111.
We also heard—this time from the Ministerial Bench—that the Spey/Mirage would not be available for service until two years, and perhaps longer, after the F111. We are assured that we could have the F111 by 1968 provided that she has got rid of all the "bugs" which are said still to be associated with her. But, equally, we are assured that the Spey/ Mirage 4 would be available by 1969 and not two years after the F111.
I wanted to make those points clear at the beginning because I believe, from all the advice which I have, that they are nearer the truth than some of the other remarks which we have heard.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us the

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source of his possible date in 1968 for the supply of F111s to this country? My information is that when the American forces' need has been met and the Australian need has been met it will be very unlikely that we shall get ours till well into 1969, at a date comparable with that for the Mirage 4.
Mr. Rankin: I am quite willing to bow to the more accurate knowledge of the hon. Gentleman. So many dates have been buzzing in my head about the Mirage, the Spey/Mirage and the F111 that I thought that 1968 was the date for the F111. I frankly admit that I cannot quote off-hand the authority for it. Rumour must circulate occasionally inside our heads. It gets a grip, anyway.
If I understood him correctly, the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) said that the Plowden Committee had been established in order to decide whether we should have an air industry or not. That effort would be pure redundancy. It never entered my head at any time that we should need to appoint a Committee to decide whether or not we should have an air ministry. I though that the Committee's purpose was to inquire into the efficiency of the industry and to see—
Sir L. Heald Sir L. Heald rose—
Mr. Rankin: Just let me finish the sentence. I shall give way in a moment, but I hope that hon. and right hon. Members will not blame me for making a long speech if they encourage me to go on by interruptions. My interpretation was not that it was the industry's existence which was in doubt but its efficiency and the need for continuing it as it was.
Sir L. Heald: Will the hon. Gentleman look again at the terms of reference and the Committee's Report? It is perfectly clear that the Committee thought that that was what it was there for.
Mr. Rankin: I am sorry. I cannot be responsible for the Committee's thinking in that respect. If it was right in thinking that that was its purpose, it was a waste of time for the simple reason that, when the Committee was appointed, there were 260,000 men engaged in the industry and to spend months on deciding whether or not we should displace
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260,000 employees was a waste of time. However, as Rob Roy said, we will let that fly stick to the wa' in the meantime.
But, having mentioned that figure of 260,000, I must remind my right hon. Friend that in 1961 the number of persons engaged in the industry was 310,000, today it is 250,000, and in 1970 it will be 200,000. That is an enormous deflation in manpower within nine years. I hope that my right hon. Friend, or whoever is to reply, will be able to assure us that there are jobs waiting for those who will be displaced from their existing jobs by this cut in the industry, though I do not dispute that it may be necessary to run it down.
My right hon. Friend began by putting the question which the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey put—"Do we need an aircraft industry?"—and he finished by saying, "Yes, we do". I said that before the Report was ever published or thought of, and I still say it. My right hon. Friend says that the industry will be smaller but stronger. I shall give him every encouragement and help in making it stronger, and I hope that the Government will ensure that those who contribute to the smallness of the industry will have their future safeguarded. We all know that the Government are taking special measures now to ensure that the standard of living of employees in industry who may become redundant will be safeguarded in the future more than in the past.
I do not want this industry to become the plaything of politicians. Therefore, when the right hon. Member for Mitcham started to blame the Government for the present condition of the industry or for what he said they had done in creating this state, I remembered what is said in Chapter 10 of the Report. It is paragraph 125:
"We list them here"—
that is, the criticisms—
"lest we give the impression that we believe environmental factors alone to have been responsible for all the industry's troubles:

"(a) Erratic Government policy in defence procurement during the last decade has denied industry the consistent objectives and stable programme needed for success".

That is the Tories again. I do not want to take this line. I do not want to see this industry the sport of the politicians, but, if right hon. and hon. Members

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opposite start blaming my Government, I shall quote from the Report of the people who investigated it. That first criticism points straight at the Tory Opposition. The sooner the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) thinks again, after Hull, and comes over here, the easier his conscience will be. Sub-paragraphs (b) and (j) state:
"Delays within the Government in deciding whether new military or civil projects should be started have handicapped British manufacturers in competing with foreign rivals."
"The efforts of Government and industry to promote exports have not matched those of other countries, in particular the United States."
Therefore, as I say, we should drop this business of blaming one another for the state of the industry.
I have already pointed out that I have had the chance of seeing the Mirage 4 and I heard a great deal. I would like to have heard much more. Much of what I wanted to hear when I returned to Britain is contained in reports of the inter-departmental committee on the variable geometry aircraft and the reports of the discussions and so on that are proceeding between our French friends and ourselves. I have discovered that these reports are being treated as secret. I hope that my right hon. Friend is listening.
Mr. Lubbock: The Minister is not listening.
Mr. Rankin: My right hon. Friend cannot escape my voice. We have been told today that as Members of this House we ought to have all the information that it is possible to give us in order that we may come to sensible conclusions on these matters. Yet here are most important discussions going on between British and French experts on the inter-departmental committee dealing with variable geometry aircraft and the papers have been declared secret.
I ask the Minister why that is so. Are these papers regarded as secret by the French? Do French Parliamentarians get them? Has it been jointly agreed by the British and the French that the papers are secret productions? I have tried to get them. I have sought them in the Library and in all the usual avenues. I have tried the Minister himself. I got the answer from his Department that these papers were secret.
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I turn now to one particular aspect of the Report. In paragraph 523, the Plowden Committee recommends collaboration with Europe. Of course, we know from the Report that collaboration with Germany, France and other European nations is taking place. I would like to see that expanded and not have it limited merely to collaboration with Europe. I would like it extended to collaboration with the Commonwealth. I do not see why Britain, Europe and the Commonwealth should not form a great basis and unit of progress in the development of military and civil aircraft.
Collaboration is now taking place, and I would want to apply it particularly to the aircraft I have seen, in which I have sat and in which I would have flown if I had had the chance. However, that would not have been permitted, I suspect, for it might have been too dangerous. I do not suppose it would be easy to get permission to fly in a supersonic military aircraft.
Mr. Burden: Too much "g", John.
Mr. Rankin: I do not mind interruptions in the least. I want to deal further with the question of collaboration and to boil it down to the question of direct co-operation with France on this project, because I want to point out that we cannot at one and the same time have both an Anglo-American and an Anglo-French defence equipment policy. They will not run together and we must make up our minds which we are to have.
A good many of us believe that if we decide—in my view, unfortunately—to collaborate with the United States, then in the long run it means American control of the type of aircraft we produce. The Americans will seek domination. This is not my view alone. It is the view of a great many people not only in Britain but in France.
We may say that these are interests, and I do not quarrel with that. But what is the wisdom behind the interests? There are interests everywhere in this business, and the one thing that I do not want to see us doing in this matter is to come under the domination of the United States or the French. But the point is that we have a greater chance of collaborating with France than we have with the United States.

939
Just after my visit to Dassault I saw that collaboration again in operation at Filton, when I sat in the reproduction model of the Concord, which is one of the most elegant aircraft I have ever seen and a magnificent tribute to the way in which the two companies are collaborating in the closest possible fashion to produce this "gentle giant". It will carry no death-dealing apparatus in its belly, unlike other aircraft I shall refer to.
There is a growing feeling that the United States wants to become the arsenal of Europe. I do not want to see that. Of course, we all recognise America's power. There is the tremendous home market for the development of the civil side of aviation. There have been subsidies from the American Government. I do not know whether they still continue, but either Pan-American or Transworld got over 100 million dollars a year to collect the debris found around Cape Canaveral following the failure of many space ventures. There is a subsidy in America for carrying the mail, and this economic power eases the development of the military side of the industry.
If this collaboration with America were to take place, the result would be that this country would become a production sub-contractor for America, and if the Americans fell on bad times at home they would have the chance to export unemployment to Britain. Our own scientific and technological industries would suffer.
This is already happening, because an American company, Comprehensive Designs Incorporated, has already been formed in this country to produce detailed designs of aircraft projects for export to the United States, and if men engaged in aircraft work here on the design and draughtsman side are made idle because of the diminution of the strength of our own industry, they will be snapped up by this company and paid more than they would be paid here, but less than they would be paid if they went to America. This would be a blow to our home industry. The headquarters of this firm are in Forte's Hotel at London Airport. This is the sort of thing we are now up against.
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If we allow this to extend and, if we do not retain the design and research ability to tackle a selection of complete and complex projects ourselves, we cannot function as an equal partner with the United States in any such international collaboration. If, as I hope we will not, we choose the F111 instead of the Spey/Mirage, we have to remember that we shall get absolutely nothing out of it on the employment side. We shall get no extra work, no more scientific jobs and we shall not even get any chance of design work, because that will be exported to America in the way I have suggested. All we shall get will be the privilege of paying in dollars which are already in short supply.
Against that we have to weigh the fact that if we take the Spey/Mirage 4, 50 per cent. of the work will be done in Britain, as is the case with the Concord. Work on the engines will give jobs to our engineers and work on the airframes will give jobs to our airframe constructors. Because Spey engines will have to be used, the tailpiece of the aircraft will require to be adapted, or readapted, to carry the engine. There will be no expenditure of dollars and although we will have to pay francs, that will present no problem.
I hope that I have stated the problem with which Parliament is faced fairly and without bias and without anti-Americanism. I want it to be perfectly clear that I am not anti-American, even though I disagree with America's policy in Vietnam, a subject which I cannot debate at the moment. I am thinking of this country's interests and particularly the interests of Scotland. If we get more aviation work in Britain, perhaps a little more of it will spew over into Scotland. More than we have had in the past. I want English Members to remember that all we have in Scotland is the very important work which Ferranti is doing for B.A.C. It is important, but it is nothing to what is coming to the southern part of Britain.
I have spoken for aviation in Britain, but I conclude by saying that I would like the results to be spread more fairly over the whole of Britain than is presently the case.
6.17 p.m.
Sir William Robson Brown: I have been very impressed by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin). I sense that in all he has said

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he has had the support of the whole House. The Minister made some very soothing sounds and I hope that in their decisions, which should not be too long delayed, the Government will support the reassuring statements and implications of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. He said that Britain could not stand alone, but I question that, reminding him that in the last five years Holland, France and Sweden as individual nations have made spectacular progress in aviation.
There has been an emphasis on exports and I want to pay a compliment to the Parliamentary Secretary for the spendid work which he has been doing to my certain knowledge in many parts of the world in the promotion of the export of British aircraft, especially civil aircraft. I know that he has sometimes found the going pretty tough, and in one or two quarters so did I.
Unfortunately, the debate is being held in a vacuum. We do not have the substantial information which we require about the Government's intentions before we can reach proper conclusions about the proper future for the industry. I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of things said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), but I am not quite so liberal in my praise of the Plowden Report itself. It was a curate's egg which was pretty rotten in many parts.
The Plowden Committee made a great mistake in visiting only one factory in Northern Ireland. It should certainly have visited one of the most advanced in Britain and without question should have gone to the United States of America to study the best which could be seen there. [HON. MEMBERS: "It did".] Factories? I was not aware of that. That does not take much space in the Report.
Reading the Report—and it is quite long—I came to the opinion that the Committee seemed to lose its way many times and contradicted itself in its conclusions far too often and, in the end, adopted attitudes which were most depressing and which showed the basic weakness of Governments' relying too much on committees and boards.
Circumstances often change while a committee is deliberating. More and more emphasis and regard is being paid to committees when less and less should
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be paid. While the Committee was debating, the exports of this industry went up from £100 million to £150 million. At the same time, there was one order from the Middle East for £50 million. This is an industry upon which the Committee was carrying out a requiem mass. When I read the Report I wondered which industry it was discussing, and thought that perhaps it was the shipbuilding industry, or something of that kind.
The industry is not free from criticism and it has made many errors. I speak now of the criticism of the industry as one who has spent a long time with it. In recent years practically every British aeroplane has been built too late or has been too dear. That is the sort of criticism which we have to face. Because this has happened in the past it should not mean that it will happen in the future. We have learned some bitter lessons from the past and we can learn from what happened in the last decade. This is not a party political debate but I reckon that there have been 33 major projects which were cancelled either half-way through or towards the end, and everyone had to start all over again.
I would not have liked to have been a managing director in an industry or company faced with this year after year. There were projects which were well advanced and which were cancelled. It is a wonder that the designers did not completely lose heart. It is to their credit that they largely remained loyal to the industry. This must stop and here the Government have a great responsibility. If I were to say nothing else in this debate I would say that we have to decide that we shall go British, or, inevitably, we shall go 100 per cent. American. There is no half-way house about this, twist or turn as one likes. This is the 64,000 dollar question facing the Government. The Government should place before the country, in a White Paper, the long-term ideas for British military aircraft requirements.
At the same time, as has been said, for goodness' sake do not change all the people responsible for making the decisions within a couple of years. The kind of posting which has been going on at R.A.F. level has been a real handicap. This has to be related not only to our own requirements, but also in a way which we have never accepted

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before, to international requirements for military aircraft.
I spoke of a £50 million order coming from the Middle East. These things are more within our reach than we probably realise. We are always looking for the great big plum when sometimes half a dozen smaller ones are just as good. I say let competition have a free rein. I believe in free competition, properly geared and organised. I do not want this compromise of either full nationalisation, partial nationalisation, partial investment or any one of these combinations. It will be a bad thing for the aircraft industry. The industry would feel that the minute the Government put up money the undertaking was being underwritten for all time and it would start leaning on these crutches. These tenders should go to the best team. They should not be given to any Muggins or Buggins. Let the order go to the firm which can make the best tender, carry out the best delivery promises and also be able to enjoy what our Front Bench speaker said about rewards and penalties.
This partial nationalisation or investment idea is creeping into political thinking these days. I do not want to depart from this debate, but in the end one finishes up by getting the worst of both worlds.
Mr. Norman Atkinson: This debate is about the ownership of industry. This is an argument between private and public monopoly. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we ought to go back to before 1960 and scramble the industry. If one is talking about real competition in that sense we are going back a number of years.
Sir W. Robson Brown: The hon. Member has not read the Report, or appreciated what we are debating. I am sorry that there is nothing which I can answer there.
Military defence expenditure should be British, let us have no nonsense about it. British aircraft defence should be British. We cannot carry out civil aviation projects without having British military support as well. They are tied together like Siamese twins; they are inseparable and if we try to avoid that basic fact we will get into more trouble again. We have to have a British military aircraft requirement and the basis
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of that should form the launching ground for the civil aircraft contracts and finance.
The Plowden Report seems to take a most extraordinarily pessimisitic view. One sentence, above all others, for which I indict the Committee, says
"There is little prospect of substantially increasing the sale of products made by British industry on its own."
What an extraordinary statement to make. In another section the Report suggests almost 100 per cent. reliance upon huge aircraft projects and big developments from the United States of America.
We are just throwing our hands in before we start. If, from now on, we operated from Plowden, we would be going straight down to rock bottom, and the industry might as well throw its hand in and its best brains emigrate to the United States. The Committee does not seem to have realised the extraordinary expansion that has taken place in the civil aviation field. What has happened is nothing to what will take place within 10 years. We are discussing today a great expanding industry if we had the courage to recognise it.
There is another angle of this which, up till now, I have not heard mentioned. Before a decade has passed the civil transport aircraft will be taking a great deal of trade away from shipping all over the world. Tonnage will go by air which people previously thought should inalienably go by steamer. The shipowners will get quite a shock and I recommend to them, even at this late stage, that they have another look at the feasibility of investing money in civil aviation projects, which perhaps will give them a better return than they would get from some of the projects which they are considering at present.
I view the future of the aircraft industry with great optimism. This optimism is based on experience in other industries of every class and kind. It is a modern, dynamic industry. It is no wonder that the United States are fighting tooth and nail to wrest it from us. I do not blame them; this is a competitive world. They are using every trick in the game to beat us. Perhaps the profit margins are not as good as they thought they were. I deprecate the abject defeatism of the Plowden Report. We have not yet seen the benefit of the recent mergers.

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We cannot reorganise a great corporation like the British Aircraft Corporation in weeks or months. It takes years.
Let me turn to matters on which I feel that I am, in some degree, competent to speak. There is no question in my mind that the overheads in the aircraft industry are excessively high. I hope that as a result of the B.A.C. merger and the new appraisal of the industry the overheads will be pruned down to the keenest level. Linked with that, and even more important, is the question of management techniques in the industry, which could he very considerably stiffened. I believe that members of the management should go to America and study every angle of the American aircraft industry and apply here everything that they learn.
Production costs in the industry are something which I cannot comprehend. With wage costs 40 to 50 per cent. lower than they are in the United States, our manpower production costs are 2½ times higher. We will never get our own industry right as long as that state of affairs exists. It is no use skirting round this question; it has to be faced. Production costs need to be drastically pruned, and it will require very strong management and very understanding people to do it. But, in the end, we would have a viable industry able to give continuous and successful employment—perhaps to a smaller labour force.
There has been interest in the broad span of the debate without political bias. I suggest that we should have a consortium of brains and co-operation. The best brains of the Government, of management and of the trade union movement in the aircraft industry should form a consortium which would watch every move and act as the guide, inspiration and dynamic behind the industry. This is what is required. Tremendous benefits would result from this. I am a great believer in this tripartite way of working. It is the only way in which the nation can work successfully. The unions have greater experience in these matters than we realise, and their contribution would be invaluable.
The Government should decide the military programme over a definite period. They should decide civil aviation aircraft programmes in relation to the amount of money that they would inevitably require to give effect to them. I
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do not believe that the Government should find a penny for anybody on vague generalisations or hopes. We have had too much of this in the past. In every project—I am talking particularly about civil aviation now—they should say, "You want this money. Tell us what you think you can do with it. Have you the market and have you the plane for it?" This must be based on world sales.
I wish to touch on the question of long-term European aircraft. There has been reference to the Anglo-French Mirage and Concord projects. The Society of British Aerospace Companies published a very good report, this morning or yesterday morning, in which it pointed out some of the difficulties in this matter. At the same time, it pointed out the possibilities. I hope that the Government have it in mind to bring together all the aircraft companies of Europe and to invite the collaboration of Australia, Canada and New Zealand, because those markets will be very much bigger than they have been in the past. Let us try some planning on a basis which will avoid misunderstanding. If the French committees and politicians pull one way and the British pull another there is a tug of war between the two nations and the project in question suffers. I have seen this happen. There is grave danger of the Concord costs escalating too far.
The future of the industry rests in the Government's hands. All of us on this side of the House, and, I am sure, all hon. Members opposite, and the 250,000 men in the industry and the associated industries will await with very considerable interest to see what is to happen to the industry. We are not debating two or three very big firms; we should be suffering under a delusion if we thought that. We are also debating 500 firms which are closely related to the aircraft industry whose work in electronic advancement has enabled the aircraft industry to expand in the way that it has and which could lead us into a new technological age.
I should like to say something which sounds as though it comes a little from the heart and not from the head. We have qualities of genius among the designers in the British aircraft industry. They have developed projects like variable geometry and others which have

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been in advance of anything of their kind in the world. Men of this sort are still with us. We should not neglect them. We would do so at our peril. I suggest that the facilities at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough, should be placed at their disposal so that they can develop their ideas. We have a very fine reservoir of talent here and we should take advantage of it before it is too late.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham said one thing which I thought had most powerful justification. He suggested that when the Government put a project in train they should appoint, as the Americans do—we would merely be taking a leaf out of the American's book—someone as the director of the project. He should have the responsibility and should be tied only within the financial rules of the game. We should not cripple him. That is what has happened in the aircraft industry. This has caused us more trouble than anything else. The history of the aircraft industry shows that all the successes have been linked with an individual personality, not committees. Therefore, I beg the Government to find the men we need and then, having found them, to put them to the maximum use.
6.40 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Strauss: I am sure that the House has listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown). He is knowledgeable on this subject and although one does not agree with everything he says, his views come from experience and we have paid close attention to his observations.
The debate today and the Plowden Report remind me very much of the experiences I underwent about 20 years ago, when I had responsibility for the aviation industry as Minister of Supply. The problems that faced me and the Government at that time were almost identical with those facing the industry today.
We had an industry greatly expanded by the war and it appeared that the orders which we were likely to give to the industry, on both the military and civil sides, would not be anything like enough to keep the industry going fully for years to come. The problem arose of what was to be done about it.
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The Government felt that it was their duty in those days to say boldly that the industry must be concentrated and a considerable part of it closed down. The Government prepared a plan, which we had worked out in the Ministry, for selecting those firms to which no future orders would be given, with the deliberate purpose of concentrating the industry at a much smaller capacity and making that section really prosperous.
That plan was never published. Indeed, nothing further happened. I am not sure to what extent the industry was aware of the designs which we had upon it at the time because the Korean War supervened. Naturally, that caused a substantial expansion of the industry and the problem of excessive capacity and inadequate orders disappeared.
Today, a similar problem confronts the industry and the Ministry, but for very different reasons, which I need not relate as they are set out in the Report and they have been mentioned by every speaker in the debate. I make only this comment. It has been generally said that the position which the industry is in today is the fault equally of the aircraft industry and of past Governments, that the industry took on orders too lightly without being fully satisfied that it would be able to recover its costs, that Governments were slow in giving orders, which they frequently cancelled, that there were constant delays, and change of plans.
That is true, but it must be remembered that we are speaking in hindsight and that the industry is in permanent flux. Enormous changes are happening the whole time. Looking back, it is easy to say that all these things are true. The military situation was changing during the whole period. New demands were made which conflicted with the old ones. It was impossible to forecast the costs of some of the new guided missiles and other items that were being built. Consequently, Governments hesitated justifiably in giving the industry new orders and they were justifiably hesitant in cancelling them. The industry was in constant difficulty. Much of its inefficiency which has been so much talked about was in fact the result of frequent changes of policy by the Government and the Airways Corporations. The industry is not wholly responsible for it.

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The troubles of the industry arose, one might truly say, partly from historic reasons and it would be a mistake to put too much blame on either side. But whatever the cause the industry today is in difficulty. It is not my purpose to talk at length or to put forward remedies. I merely wanted to make one or two comments on matters which might be considered minor, but which arise from my experience as Minister of Supply many years ago.
First, there is discussion in the Report, but it comes to no conclusion, about whether the Ministry of Aviation should continue or should disappear. It would be a very great pity if the Ministry of Aviation were to disappear. It has an invaluable function. It is the Ministry which has no other function but that of looking after the welfare of this difficult industry. At a time when it is in a particularly grave state of flux, and when the future is uncertain, to get rid of the Ministry, which has close contact with and understanding of the problems of the industry, would be a grave mistake.
Secondly, the Ministry of Defence, which, it is suggested might take over responsibility for aviation, has too much work to do already and could not properly take on any more. It would be foolish to ask it to take on the very heavy job of the Ministry of Aviation on top of its present responsibilities. A third point is that if the Ministry of Defence undertook the responsibility it is almost inevitable that the civil aircraft side of the industry would suffer. At least, it might think that it was suffering. For that reason too, such a move would be undesirable.
My next point concerns Short Bros. & Harland. That company has had a chequered career. It has done very good work, it has a good design team and it has produced aeroplanes and guided missiles which are first class. The problem arises—it is also discussed in the Report—whether any preference should be given to this company and it is apparently considered doubtful by the Committee whether it should be kept alive. If, however, it is to be kept alive it is suggested that it should be only for social reasons. I should like to urge that the social grounds here are overwhelming.
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If Short Bros. was inefficient, plainly and clearly less efficient than other elements in the industry, one might well look at the matter differently, but that is not the case. It is a good organisation and it has done some great work. It would be fantastic to suggest that this organisation in Northern Ireland, which employs about 8,000 people, very many highly skilled, most of whom could not be employed in any other job as there is no other work for them, should disappear and that the work which they are doing and will do in the future should be loaded on to aircraft factories in the Midlands, where there is plenty of alternative work.
If it is necessary to contract the industry anywhere, surely it should be contracted in the Coventry or Birmingham areas and not where it is highly desirable for social reasons that employment for skilled men should continue.
To my mind, the solution is quite simple. Steps should be taken to incorporate this company in one of the two big groups operating today. There are many ways in which this could be done. One of the big units should be asked to buy the company at asset value or some other value and the Government might in return supply the money for ordinary shares with which to do it. The financial side would not be difficult. It should, however, be clearly the duty of whichever of the two big groups takes over the company to give such orders as it can to Short Bros. & Harland to keep that company's works going. There would be no fear that it would not do its work exceedingly well.
Mr. Burden: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree, however, that there might be a considerable difficulty that one of the bigger units which took over Short Bros. might tend to allow it to fritter away, because it would be better for the bigger unit to concentrate at its main works?
Mr. Strauss: The Government have such an influence on the aircraft industry that they can make almost any condition that they like in giving it contracts.
I will be open with the House and with the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden). The argument has gone on for some years past among many of us about whether it was desirable at an earlier stage to nationalise the aircraft industry.

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There was a strong case for it, but the most powerful counter-argument was that the Government have such control over the industry that, as its main customer, they could make the industry do almost anything they liked, within reason. There would be no difficulty in bringing about the reorganisation of one of the big groups in such a way that it could incorporate Short Bros. and Harland.
I want now to make one or two comments on the proposal about which apparently the Committee felt very keenly, and that is whether it is desirable that the Government should invest an unstated sum of money in both of the two groups in the aircraft industry.
I doubt whether doing so would achieve the purposes which they have in mind. There are many criticisms that one could make of the aircraft industry, and some were made by the hon. Member for Esher. Its management techniques are not as good as they could be and probably on efficiency grounds there is much to be done. One hoped that after the regrouping it would happen rapidly, and perhaps it will. I do not know. But, certainly, Government investment of money in these two groups will not by itself increase efficiency. It will not bring new or better designers into the industry, as all the best designers are there already. Therefore, on technical grounds, the improvement of output generally and improving the management techniques of the industry, it would serve no purpose.
It is not on those grounds that the investment is suggested by the Plowden Committee. It suggested other grounds which we should examine objectively, because hon. Members on this side of the House certainly are not frightened by the prospect of either partial investment of Government money in an industry or that the industry should be taken over wholly by the Government. My hon. Friends take the view that each case should be examined empirically. We are particularly not frightened about taking over an aviation firm, as we have in France the example of Sud-Aviation, a publicly-owned company which is outstanding and which produced the Caravelle. There is no reason why the same sort of thing should not happen here.
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I might comment, incidentally, that the Society of British Aerospace Companies naturally does not look at the matter objectively. It has strong views on the subject and, in the statement that it issued, talked about the horror of creeping nationalisation, and that sort of thing. But the problem should be really considered objectively and free from preconceived doctrine as far as possible.
What is the purpose of investing some money—the amount is not stated or whether it is to be a majority or a minority shareholding, I do not know—in the shares of B.A.C. or Hawker-Siddeley? The reasons given are that a partnership between the supplier and the purchaser would be established, and that this is desirable.
Let us look at that. As Mr. Aubrey Jones points out, there is always a conflict between a supplier and a purchaser. It is inevitable, natural and proper. Would it really help to transfer that conflict into the boardroom, so that when matters of grave importance came up there were two groups of people with conflicting interests and conflicting purposes? I am not sure that it would not sour the atmosphere and lead to less wise rather than more wise decisions.
It is possible that I am wrong about that, but it is something that happens in practice. One has known it happen on many occasions when conflicting interests get on to one board, and there cannot be two more conflicting interests than those of the supplier and purchaser of the end product, as would be the case here. One would hope that when one got the two sides together everything in the garden would be lovely, but in practice what happens more often is that there are endless rows.
It is suggested that it will end the constant tug-of war between the purchaser and the supplier over costs and the meticulous care with which the Ministry must go into all contracts and follow up all the activities of an aircraft company, seeing everything that it does and constantly costing every activity. That is the situation which exists at the moment, and it has been criticised in the Report, rightly in my view. I must say that, when I had some responsibility for it, I often thought that my officers went too far and were an awful nuisance, but they were doing a necessary job to protect the

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public against the aircraft companies and their shareholders making unreasonably large profits out of the State.
If the State takes over, shall we say, 50 per cent. of the shares, the problem does not disappear at all. It is there, just as much as ever. The House, the country and the Government will be just as anxious to see that the 50 per cent. of the shareholders who remain do not get fantastically large profits because of loose or generous contracts given by the State. That does not obviate this problem in the slightest. It still remains.
I agree with the Committee that all possible steps should be taken to prevent the tug-of-war going on the whole time which creates a feeling of conflict and hostility between the Department and the aircraft companies. The Government's taking over 50 per cent, or any other percentage of the shares does not of itself solve that problem.
The only other reason why the proposal is advocated of which I am aware, and it is one which must be given full consideration, is that the aircraft industry will require substantial financing in the future. It may do, and it may have difficulty in raising finance in the ordinary commercial way. It is a difficulty which may arise. As we know, in the development of a civil aircraft there is the good rule of 50/50: the Government contribute 50 per cent. and, if any profits are made, the Government is repaid its share out of those profits. That is sensible. But there may be requirements by the aircraft companies for further, and it may be substantial, finance which they may not be able to raise.
What is the best way to meet that? I think that the way is the one that is often done in industry through the banks. We have advocated in the past that it should be done on a number of occasions when the Conservative Government has wanted to subsidise a particular company—Cunard, or the steel industry, when it was contributing £50 million for the development in Scotland.
The simple and proper way to do it is to issue convertible debentures to the company. The Government have debentures and, therefore, they have security for their investment. If, as is hoped, the venture turns out well, the Government then have the right to exchange those
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debentures into ordinary shares after five or 10 years. If the project is a successful and profitable one the Government or, rather, the taxpayers get back profit out of the money that they have invested. That is the simple and straightforward way of doing it which is adopted frequently in industry on a large scale.
If the difficulty is that the industry does not know how it is to raise substantial sums of money in the future which it will want, the answer is that under those conditions the Government can do it in a perfectly proper and fair way that protects the taxpayer if they approve the scheme and they are certain that the project that the aircraft company wants to undertake is a fair and wise one.
I can see some purpose and some benefit in taking over either the whole or part of the aircraft industry, but I do not believe that a partial investment, a partial shareholding, will solve any of the problems which the Committee described, and I therefore have great difficulty in supporting it in that respect.
Mr. Onslow: I have listened with great interest to the right hon. Gentleman's speech. Can he express an opinion on the likely effect of taking over the industry, either partially or totally, on what is vital, namely, increasing the size of the market?
Mr. Strauss: That is a different problem. Increasing the size of the market is a question of exports, and I do not think that Government investment here would have any effect whatsoever. This is a matter for the industry. Whether it has done all that it can to maximise its exports, I cannot tell, as I have not been in sufficient touch with the industry for many years.
The industry is in a difficulty at the moment. As I said at the beginning, this is not entirely the industry's fault. There are a number of historical reasons for it. There have been a number of miscalculations, some the fault of the Government, some the fault of the industry, and some just sheer bad luck, but the industry, with its large resources, with its high tradition of success, and with its fine designers, who in the past have brought about world triumphs in the production of aeroplanes, is not dead. Those assets are all there, and, given a reasonable opportunity, I think that the

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industry will overcome the difficulties confronting it.
The Government are pressed to make quick decisions, but I ask them not to make them too quickly, because what is at stake is the future of one of our major industries and the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of our most skilled people. Decisions must not be made too quickly. If the Government make wise decisions, I am certain that the resources of the aircraft industry, particularly in technical manpower, and the high degree of skill of its work people and designers are such that it will once more achieve the triumphs which it did in the past.
7.3 p.m.
Mr. Neil Marten: The speech of the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) was one of the most interesting that we have heard in this debate. What I find so interesting is that it was made by an ex-Minister who has experienced the responsibility of the office about which we are talking, and who also has experience of business in the outside world. I was a junior Minister at the same Ministry, and I, too, am connected with business outside, but I feel that my speech will be the exception that proves the rule, that speeches from Ministers are interesting.
I should like to begin by congratulating the Minister on his appointment, and wishing him well in this office. From my short experience there, I can say that I found it quite the most fascinating Ministry, and I hope that before the right hon. Gentleman allows his colleagues to abolish it he will get to know it and cling tightly to it, because, as the right hon. Member for Vauxhall said, I think that it has a great rôle to play.
I was a little disappointed at the Prime Minister's attitude at Question Time today when he was asked about this. I sensed that he had it in mind ultimately to break up this Ministry, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will fight such a proposal, because, if it is broken up, we may throw up a few technicians who will make electric toasters, and electric washing machines, but I do not think that that is what we really want.
The right hon. Gentleman said that exports in the aerospace industry this
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year were up by 50 per cent. over last year. We take great pride in that, because it is a national effort, but I hope that the Minister will not claim that as something which has happened during the first year of his party being in office, because nearly all the orders must have been placed when we were in power. We take great pride in that achievement. It is, however, essential to know the projected export figures for 1966, 1967, and 1968. With all the national planning about which we hear, no doubt that information can be obtained.
I propose now to deal with the question of European co-operation, which has been touched on by many hon. Members during this debate. I do so particularly because, as the Parliamentary Secretary knows, in January of this year the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, who is a member of the Labour Party, and I, were in Rome. We went there because the Italian airline, Alitalia, had announced that it was to order 28 American DC9s, costing 160 million dollars.
As back benchers, the hon. Member for Orpington and I got together and went to Rome because we were worried that the Italian Government and people were not showing evidence of their sincerity about Anglo-Italian co-operation across the industrial front. The object of our mission was to meet as many politicians as we could, and to probe and find out their real attitude to this.
I think that the hon. Member for Orpington will agree with me when I pay tribute to Lord Kennet for the extremely skilful way in which he handled not only the Italians but us. The fact that he was very fluent in Italian helped greatly.
We spoke to a number of Italian politicians, and nearly all of them said that they were very much in favour of Anglo-Italian co-operation, and I believe that 90 per cent. of the Members of this House are also in favour of it. That is fine, but that is only the politician's view.
When we spoke to the management of Alitalia, they said that they were in favour of collaboration, and so on, but they added that when it came down to brass tacks they were a commercial airline, and that their job was to make a profit.

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They said that they had to be profitable, and, therefore, they had to buy aircraft which suited their route problems and their economies. I think that they were sympathetic towards co-operation with us, but, on the basis of a hard commercial choice, they came down in favour of the American DC9. The BAC111 did not quite fit their route patterns and economies as well as the American plane did.
In his speech my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) brought out the practical lesson to be learned, that in the final analysis it is the efficiency of a plane and its cost which decides whether it is bought by commercial airlines, and I am sure that it is wrong, merely because an industry is nationalised, for the Government to say that it must have this aeroplane or that one.
As we move forward to, I hope, European co-operation, we must not expect the European market to be a captive one. The European aerospace industry will do its best to produce an aeroplane which it hopes all the European airlines will buy, but if, when such a plane is nearly off the production line, the Americans nip in and produce a plane which is marginally better, and possibly cheaper, I am sure that all the European commercial airlines will buy it. It would be wrong to make them buy a European plane simply because it is made in Europe.
Mr. Lubbock: I do not think the hon. Gentleman should say that the DC9 is a better aircraft. It is just that it is different, and it happens to fit Alitalia's route patterns, according to its judgment, slightly better than the British plane does.
Mr. Marten: I am glad that the hon. Member supports precisely what I say.
Mr. Lubbock: The hon. Member did not say that.
Mr. Marten: I said that it fitted the route pattern of Alitalia better than the BAC111. When we get our European aircraft industry going I hope that we shall bear this fact in mind and not be too optimistic about having an easily captive market. The European industry must design for a world market and not merely a European market.
On political grounds we agree that we want European unity. This way of co-operation towards European unity
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through industry is the real and pragmatic way towards political unity. Out of this collaboration will come such political unity as we want. On purely commercial grounds it is vital for Europe to have its own industry, because if America scoops the whole world market she will have no competition, and could then grow fat and flabby. Then we shall not get the progress that we will get if there is competition between America and a large European aerospace industry.
There may be cases in which Governments can force European countries to purchase European military aircraft, because in those circumstances Governments can accept a slight downgrading of the specification for the aircraft if it is in aid of and in furtherance of the political unity of Europe. But that does not apply to commercial aircraft.
I now turn to the question of space. Only one page is devoted to this subject in the Plowden Report. When we are considering the aircraft industry we must not forget this question. I do not want to enter into party politics, but it is my view that the "clobbering" of the aircraft industry by the Government's cancellation of these three aircraft has been a major disaster for the industry. The future economic competitiveness of these islands depends in part upon the dynamic exploitation of applied electronics throughout our industrial life.
This was very much in evidence in the aircraft industry. We are an industrial nation, surviving by our technically creative imagination, and we shall survive not by our research and development alone but by our research and development together with production and, above all, competitive selling. If the aircraft industry has been substantially "clobbered" much of its technology, such as the avionics for the TSR2, will go by the board. We must keep our scientists and technicians on the frontiers of knowledge. One way of giving our scientists a great incentive to work and think about the subject is to maintain an interest in space.
In due course I hope that the Government will announce a clear-cut space policy. At the moment, it is very dubious. There are holding contracts for Black Arrow, but no one knows where we are going. The Government could introduce a not very expensive space programme.

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If we went in for a British military defence satellite and produced our own launcher, with Black Arrow, and put the satellite up over the Indian Ocean, thereby providing communications between Britain and the whole of Africa and Asia—where the interests of ourselves and our Commonwealth lie—we would have a clear-cut and not too expensive space programme which would enable those of our scientists who are interested to carry on work which will keep their technology up to date.
It would also allow our manufacturers to become expert in these subjects and when the time came for us to play our part in E.L.D.O. and E.S.R.O., and similar European and international organisations, it would be known that Britain had the necessary experience in the manufacture of launchers and satellites. In that way, and only in that way, shall we ever get space work coming into this country. It is, therefore, very important that we should have a clearly defined national space programme.
The other reason why we should have this programme, which is well brought out in Appendix J of the Report, is the much discussed question of the fall-out in industry which would occur from our going in for a space programme. Many good examples are set out in the Report, but I want to draw the attention of the House to only one, which goes right through industry. It concerns the question of reliability.
When we send a satellite into space it will be unattended for a long time—perhaps for five years. I should like to show how this reliability has improved. In 1945, electronic equipment, comprising 350 parts, failed after an average of 90 hours operation. In 1950, the failure arose after 300 hours, and in 1955 after 400 hours. At the moment, improvements in space equipment provide for a period of 20,000 hours' reliability between failures. The goal for 1970–25 years after we started—is 200,000 hours, in respect of this highly technical micro-miniaturised equipment in space, carrying on unattended and not giving out. That is a wonderful example of reliability. That knowledge passes into industry and goes right the way through it. I urge the Government to come forward as
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soon as possible with a clearly defined national space programme.
Finally, I want to say a few words about what has caused the Plowden Report. If this country had had a bipartisan defence policy the Plowden Report would not have been necessary. Are we, as a Parliament and a country, getting any nearer to a bipartisan defence policy? The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) referred to the aircraft industry as "a plaything". A defence policy is not a plaything. We could be moving nearer a bipartisan defence policy, and with it might go a bipartisan foreign policy, to which I would not object.
I would like to explain what I mean, because this is not always the most popular thing to talk about. The Labour Party was in opposition for 13 years and during that time it was not in our confidence in matters of defence planning, because of considerations of security, and so on. When the General Election approached the Labour Party produced its election manifesto, in which it put out some incorrect facts concerning projects for the future which it said it would carry out.
In part, this was guesswork, because the Labour Party did not know the real facts. I do not blame it for that. All political parties have a duty to allocate their resources as between defence, housing, pensions and whatever else they think fit. I am not trying to score party points, but I remember that the Labour Party said that it would renegotiate the Nassau agreement. It has not done so. It said that Polaris would not deter, yet we go on building Polaris. It said that all N.A.T.O. members would have a proper share in the deployment and control of the nuclear deterrent. They have not.
When the Labour Party came to power it clearly felt the responsibility of defending this country, and since it was shown the facts it has imperceptibly changed its attitude from what it had been at the hustings in 1964. Also, if Labour is in power a little longer—[Interruption.]—I apologise for having stirred up so much trouble in the Strangers' Gallery. Perhaps they might have added to the Conservative vote in Hull. If they had gone there, they might perhaps have been better placed.

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I was just saying how I believed we should move towards a more bipartisan foreign policy. Another factor is that, before the election, there was the question of the TSR2, a question which still existed after the election. Now, the TSR2 is no more: it cannot be brought back. On this question, all the differences between us are out of the way. One can go through a number of cases like this and I believe that the margins between us may begin to disappear. Perhaps they will disappear reluctantly on our side and perhaps some of the hon. Members below the Gangway on the other side will not like it when they see the party opposite moving towards the centre on defence.
If we had such a bipartisan defence policy, the aircraft industry would know far better where it stood. When there is a change of Government, the same orders which the other party agreed to earlier would stand. Therefore, if we had had this, we should not have had this problem and the aircraft industry would have been in the very healthy state in which my party Left it.
7.2 p.m.
Mr. Peter Mahon: I do not regard the recommendations of the Plowden Report as either half a loaf or the thin end of any wedge leading to nationalisation. In a mixed economy, this appears to be a genuine compromise between the producer and the customer, a fair and demanding partnership between Government and private enterprise. The committee has based its conclusions on experience, much of it very bitter experience. The committee has reflected on the never-to-be-forgotten lesson of the TSR2, when miscalculation, negligence and a lack of ability to sell led to a catastrophic rise in cost and a wastage of manpower, talent, skills and hundreds of millions of £s.
I could never be induced to believe, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) adduces, that much of our failure in this industry was due to bad luck. Other industries have endured many more trials, tribulations and vicissitudes and have ultimately succeeded. In the last decade, we had abundant unpleasant demonstrations from within the Government, at Ministerial level particularly, of how not to manage the aviation business. I agree that the industry has no predestined place in the
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economy, but neither should it be regarded, particularly when harnessed with the endeavours of the rest of Europe, as the poor relation in our economy.
The Committee have stated that the present situation of the two main aircraft companies is unsatisfactory. The public investors and foreign buyers are losing confidence in the ability of these companies to control their own destinies. It follows as a natural corollary that the greatest uncertainty of all is to be found among the men engaged daily in the undertakings of the industry.
The most sombre note in the Report is the conclusion of the need for a reduction in the industry's present size. The Report says that it is a prospect which the industry must acknowledge. It is a prospect also that places on the Government the duty of taking the industry into their confidence as fully as possible about future plans. Further, it is a prospect which places on the Government the duty to ensure that a diversity of industries, akin, if possible, to aircraft manufacture and capable if required of further expansion, are introduced into those areas where, at present, the aircraft industry is so predominant. One of the most desultory facts arising from the Report is the puny manpower force engaged in the British aerospace programme.
It is a striking and painful anomaly that in this great contemporary search in space for a new frontier Britain contributes less than 1 per cent. of the contracting industry's labour force. I am not suggesting that we should start running off million-£ heats by way of training for renewed efforts in the space race. I believe, however, that our contribution to space research in collaboration with our European partners could, at some future date, in a Britain of far more economic poise, affect the total workload of the aircraft industry. Workers in my own constituency have contended with much disappointment and frustration within the aircraft industry, in which, despite all the difficulties, they have been proud to have been engaged.
To a conscientious craftsman, the loss of a skill is not secondary to the loss of a job. In Preston, the pendulum has moved full circle. Last year, it was feared that there would be 3,000 redundancies: today, there are 1,000 vacancies

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to be filled, without prejudice to redundancy payments. This gladdens the heart and it does not go into the vacuum which was referred to earlier by the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr).
Let it be observed that workers today are not moving towards the industry with the same alacrity. It is oft-times said that man's happiness can be measured by the fewness of his wants. To most working men security of tenure in employment transcends other blessings. The less exciting but stable job, the job which does not expose workpeople so violently to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, is likely to be their choice in the future as against the more exciting but more transistory employment in the aircraft industry.
So often have their hopes been blighted with one cancellation being followed by another and yet another. If in Government and management the cost is counted, it is counted by workpeople with more fearful reckoning. The one in five redundancies predicted to occur between now and 1970 will strike some fear into the hearts of workpeople. This and many other most important facets of the situation have not been lost sight of in the Plowden Report. We have reason to be grateful to those who compiled it. They have rendered a splendid service to the industry and the nation.
7.32 p.m.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: I regret that the Chair has not seen fit to call the Amendment standing in the names of my hon. Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) and many of my hon. Friends and me. I realise that on a Motion such as this it is unusual to place such an Amendment on the Order Paper and, of course, it reflects the sectional interests of a comparatively small number of hon. Members. Nevertheless, we tabled the Amendment because the Plowden Report was so damaging to the interests of the North of Ireland as a whole.
This has been reflected by the decision of the Prime Minister at Stormont to visit Ministers at Westminster. The same can be said of the Minister of Commerce and the trade unions concerned with Short Bros. & Harland, many of whom, at considerable expense to themselves, have
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come to London for two days with 40 or 50 of their colleagues to express their anxieties over the Plowden Report and its effects on Shorts.
This subject has been debated many times in the House and has been mentioned by several hon. Members today. The Minister made it clear in his opening remarks that it was the intention of the Government to cut down the aircraft industry. It is clear from the findings of the Plowden Report, particularly those to be found on page 78, that those responsible for presenting the document, along with Lord Plowden, felt that there was very little future in the aircraft industry for a firm such as Shorts.
In paragraph 447 the Committee stated:
"They are also unlikely to be given any large new sub-contracts by B.A.C. or Hawker Siddeley."
In paragraph 448 it stated:
"… in the Committee's view, they should cease to remain an independent company in the aircraft industry".
In paragraph 450 the Committee, referring to the Skyvan and Seacat, the small light freighter aircraft, suggested that if Shorts closed down, those activities should be taken over by another company in the United Kingdom.
I take great issue with that finding of the Plowden Committee. The Committee was usurping the function of Government. This is an extremely serious matter. The Committee's terms of reference did not lay it down that it should make that type of detailed recommendation—so detailed as to say that if money were to be spent in Northern Ireland it would be better not spent in the aircraft industry. This is a political decision and it is no place of a committee such as the Plowden Committee to make a recommendation of that nature. The Plowden Committee was set up
"To consider what should be the future place and organisation of the aircraft industry in relation to the general economy of the country, taking into account the demands of national defence, export prospects, the comparable industries of other countries and the relationship of the industry with Government activities in the aviation field; and to make recommendations on any steps and measures necessary."
It is not for any committee, however high powered—and I have the greatest

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respect for the members of the Plowden Committee—to suggest to the Government how much should or should not be spent on defence. That is a political decision for the Government of the day. It is not for any such committee to say how much of the money which the Government decide to spend on defence should be spent in the United States ordering American aircraft or in the United Kingdom. This, too, is a political decision for the Government of the day and the Government cannot hide behind a body such as the Plowden Committee when making decisions such as these. By the same token, the Plowden recommendation that money should not be spent on the aircraft industry in Northern Ireland is a political matter which can only be decided by the Government of the day.
We have in Northern Ireland one of the oldest aircraft manufacturing companies in the world. It was the first in the world to manufacture an aircraft designed by Wilbur and Orville Wright. It has since produced many fine aircraft, too numerous to name. To give an idea of the expertise which this company possesses, in 1920 it produced the first all-metal aircraft when the experts said that it could not be done. In 1924, it produced the little Cockle seaplane, carried out intensive research and produced many fine seaplanes which were sold to both the Armed Forces and civil airlines. Empire flying boats carried the name of Britain throughout the world and established B.O.A.C., particularly on the Far Eastern route.
During the war the company produced the Sunderland flying boat, the main aircraft of Coastal Command and a plane which was responsible for many U-boat sinkings. The Stirling bomber served throughout the war and was also produced by this company. Since the war and since Shorts was established in Belfast the company has carried on its research and development. It produced the first variable sweep aircraft, the SB5, in 1952. We have heard much about the F111, which is a variable sweep plane. Dr. Barnes Wallis' ideas of variable sweep were developed in this country 12 or 14 years ago, and given to the United States for nothing.
The company produced the Seamew in 1953 and, a year later, the PD16, which was later used by Transport Com-
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mand and adopted in the Armstrong Whitworth Argosy freighter. Perhaps the most important of recent developments by Shorts has been the vertical multi-jet SC1, which first flew in 1958 and which I was proud to see displayed at Farnborough on two or three occasions, transforming successfully from vertical take-off to forward flight and back again to vertical landing. This is a development in which we led the world. It was designed in Belfast.
Having said all this, is it for the Plowden Committee, which did not even go to the trouble of visiting any of the Hawker or B.A.C. factories, to suggest that this company is not fit to manufacture aircraft? We have manufactured some of the most up-to-date and, without doubt, some of the finest aircraft in the world, not only before and during the war, but recently. The Seacat, which has been developed in the firm's missile branch, is the country's leading missile export. It has earned in exports about £7 million out of a total of £11 million, and it is estimated that by 1970 it will have earned Britain exports worth about £14 million. The missile is used by seven foreign countries.
Here we have a factory capable of handling the most intricate and highly developed work It has produced the Belfast. This aircraft has been criticised in the Press on grounds of drag, but I must point out that there is hardly an aircraft that does not have some drag problem. The VCI0 has it, and so have many other aircraft. The leading designers at Shorts are quite satisfied that they can deal with the drag problem.
The requirement of the Belfast has, of course, been very much changed since the original order was placed in 1958–59. It was not then anticipated that we should have to fly a route like that from Cyprus to Bahrein, over Turkey, or that we should lose over-flying rights over Saudi Arabia. Is it fair to blame Shorts for political developments that have changed the requirements that the aircraft previously had no difficulty in meeting?
The firm is at present collaborating with Fokkers in a way suggested by the Plowden Committee as being an appropriate avenue of activity for the industry. It has been collaborating for the past 18 months in producing the F28. Another German consortium, B.F.W., itself

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approached Shorts to collaborate in the twin-engined twin-jet V.F.W.614. This was designed to replace the Dakota, the DC3, and there is a very big potential market for it. It has been suggested by some of the Ministry of Aviation requirement experts that the V.F.W.614 is not a suitable replacement—the very same experts who suggested that the B.A.C. —[Interruption.]
I should like briefly to examine the reason why Shorts was established in Northern Ireland. As the House well knows, we have in Northern Ireland a very difficult and—[Interruption.] To continue the debate on the Plowden Committee's recommendations, this firm was established in Northern Ireland as a means by which the Government sought to meet the employment difficulties which we have experienced there for many years.
Here was an industry which produced something ideally suited to Northern Ireland conditions. The product has a very high man-hour content. The finished aircraft are flown out which means that transport costs, which have for years bedevilled Northern Ireland and tended to increase production costs, so hindering the Northern Ireland Government in their efforts to attract new industries, do not apply as they do to most other industries there. This industry, in common with shipbuilding, brings in a very small quantity of raw material; the raw material represents a proportionately small part of the finished product.
Our main employment problem is to find work, in the main, for the men, of whom 7 per cent. are unemployed. About 7,000 or 8,000 men are employed in the aircraft factory. If the recommendations of the Plowden Committee are put into effect, it is suggested that some 4,000 of them should, within the next 18 months, be declared redundant. I question whether with the remaining 4,000 workers—1,500 of whom are employed on the missile side, leaving about 2,000 or 2,500 employees in the main aero factory—we can maintain Shorts as a viable aircraft-producing unit.
The decision facing the Government is not whether the work force should be halved, but whether it should be cut out completely. It is suggested that the work of the aircraft factory could be
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diversified, but I suggest that there is no diversification that could take the place of the aircraft work in the time mentioned by the Minister in relation to redundancy. I suggest that it would be quite impossible and impracticable within the next 18 months to establish alternative industry in Northern Ireland—and find a market for the products—which would employ anything like the present number of men.
The National Plan contains many fine passages. It states that it is the Government's intention to make use of the available labour force in the United Kingdom, but how do the Government intend, in the light of Chapter 8 of the National Plan—that dealing with regional planning—to make use of the labour force in Northern Ireland? I suggest that there are only two ways in which they can do so. One is directly the direct way, by public expenditure on roads, schools and hospitals—and we have ambitious programme in Northern Ireland—but that will not employ aircraft workers.
The other way is by means of direct military orders. Why should these military orders be placed with Shorts? I have tried to establish that we are quite capable—and no one has questioned this statement—of building the best aircraft that can be built anywhere in the world. This work should go to Northern Ireland. If it is sent to English factories in Weybridge, Coventry or Kingston-upon-Thames, men will be employed who could easily find alternative employment in some other industry that is crying out for them, and could export its products—the motor car industry, for instance. There is no such alternative work available in Northern Ireland for these men.
What happens if employment is cut down in Northern Ireland to the extent envisaged by the National Plan? The best brains will go abroad; large numbers of men are already emigrating. Boeing and Douglas have attracted numbers of our skilled design staff—the very cream of the industry. Some go to South Africa and Australia. The men concerned will either go abroad or go on the unemployment list; in any case, they will be lost to the country. I therefore suggest as strongly as I can that this type of work is ideal for Northern Ireland—and not only good for Northern Ireland but for the country as a whole.

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I do not like the idea of redundancy in the aircraft industry anywhere. It is equally bad for a man to lose his job in Weybridge as to lose it in Belfast, but at least the man in England can easily find alternative employment. That is not so with the men employed in Northern Ireland. I therefore ask the Government to look seriously at the policies they have announced; at their ideas of buying American aircraft and cutting down our own industry. An aircraft like the HS681, which was cancelled, is infinitely preferable to an out-of-date old aircraft like the Lockheed Hercules.
If the Government will not take the HS681, why not take the version of the Belfast? That does not seem to have been considered by the Government, yet when the original contract went to the HS681 the Belfast ran it a very close second. It failed only because it did not have an appropriate take-off characteristic, but it has a better take-off characteristic than has the Lockheed. In addition, the Belfast is at the beginning of its development, whereas the Lockheed is an old and out-of-date machine which cannot be further developed or stretched.
By buying British aircraft, the Government would not only save foreign exchange but help our balance of payments. The Government must remember that even if British aircraft cost more than United States' products, part at least of the price paid for British aircraft is returned straight away to the Government in taxes, while money spent on United States' products is totally lost to the Government.
On the question of the United States' policy of quoting cut prices to Britain for its products, the Plowden Report shows what a competitor the British aircraft industry has been to the Americans. On page 108 of the Report we find a table of exports of leading aircraft manufacturing countries. We find that in 1958 the United States aircraft industry as a whole exported £344 million of exports, whereas the British aircraft industry exported £151 million, almost half, but in the following year American exports had dropped to £274 million whereas the British had risen to £155 million. This was with an industry only
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a fifth the size of the American aircraft industry.
The table continues to 1964 when we find that the U.S.A. exported £433 million worth against the British £96 million, almost £100 million. We find that Britain is the main competitor of the Americans. The Americans are out to cut the throats of competitors. Why are the Americans quoting these cut prices for Phantoms and Lockheeds? Is it not to put the British aircraft industry entirely out of business? I implore the Government to look very critically at this policy of the United States.
We have all heard of Henry J. Cuss and the efforts he makes to sell American equipment abroad and to run down British equipment. What could be more damaging to the British aircraft industry than for the Government to cancel projects such as the TSR2 and the HS681 and to receive orders from the United States? This has given great hostages to men like Cuss to run down our aircraft industry. We should not only reexamine the whole defence programme and the ordering or requirement programme, but also because of the importance of this industry to the economy of Northern Ireland, we should consider its importance in giving employment in Belfast to 7,000 or 8,000 workers, plus the many small shopkeepers and others who depend on the men in the industry who spend their earnings in the area.
My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Kilfedder) and I were glad to see the Minister on this matter and glad, also, that as a result the Minister agreed to see the trade unions and to hear them make some of these points, which I wish to emphasise. We need these industries in Belfast. We have there a factory with one of the biggest hangars in Europe and terrific production facilities. The Minister has been round the factory and seen its production, not only direct aircraft production, but production on the missile side and the attempts to diversify the production of hydraulic equipment, machine tools, analogue computers and many other projects.
The right hon. Gentleman knows the difficulties of diversifying industry and the uphill struggle it is, the amount of capital which has to be put in if we are to make, for instance, electronically

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controlled machine tools. We would have to completely retool and write off national investment in great hangars and assembly sheds and the skill of men in Northern Ireland which has been built up over 15 or 20 years on the firm basis of the great reputation of Short Bros. and Harland.
I close by making some suggestions to the Government about this firm. Instead of cutting down the firm, they should consider strengthening it. They should strengthen it at all levels, the sales side, management side and production side. If there is waste or extravagance in the firm it should be more tightly controlled. Simply because, in the past, there have been mistakes in production, which I suggest have arisen through changing requirements by the Government rather than by any mistake in the company itself, there is no reason to accept the Plowden suggestion and cut the firm practically to nothing.
I am glad to see the Minister present to hear my concluding remarks. I call on him to make a clear pronouncement on Short Bros. The firm has been under a cloud of doubt for too long. We must have a clear decision. The Minister must remember the pledges he and his Government made to Northern Ireland. His predecessor, now the Secretary of State for the Home Department, said, as quoted in the Financial Times of 19th May, 1965:
"'Short's is part of the British aircraft industry and will remain part of it'. He affirmed the Government's intention that the company should continue its work in the missile as well as the aircraft field. He also said, that Short's is a unit of great technical value, not only to Northern Ireland but also to the United Kingdom as a whole."
Less than a year ago this was reported:
"The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, addressing Short's apprentices on 28th May, 1965, said:
"I would repeat the assurances given here by my colleague, the Minister of Aviation."—
now the Home Secretary—
"'Short's is part of the British aircraft industry and will remain part of it. I can assure you that Short's will fulfil their commitments in the matter of delivery or after-sales service to anyone who has bought or intends to buy aircraft or guided weapons from your production lines American and other competitors take note.'"
That was a pledge given by the First Secretary 10 months ago.
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The First Secretary, on 3rd June, said in this House, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark):
"Certainly. The Minister of Aviation has said this. I said it in Northern Ireland. I repeat it here now. I think that it would be very good for Short's and for Northern Ireland if there were diversification of its interests and if it were not linked to this one form of enterprise. … we have both made it clear—using exactly the same words—that Short's is in the aircraft industry, it will remain part of the aircraft industry, and anyone who has bought or is thinking of buying any of its excellent products can be quite sure that the company will be able to fulfil all its after-sales and so on."
The First Secretary is reported as having said on 1st February, 1965 as shown in col. 1017 of the OFFICIAL REPORT:
"The hon. Gentleman can go and find out. I am making a carefully considered statement and I think he will find that Short Bros. and Harland and Belfast are looked after by this Government far better than the last."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1965; vol. 705, c. 1017.]
Is this the way the Government intend to look after the firm? The Minister said when opening this debate that he expected 4,000 men would be laid off in the next 18 months. Is that the way in which pledges are satisfied and the way in which the Government protect their 70 per cent. shareholding in the company? The Government have a major interest as a main shareholder in the company. I ask the Government to review any decision they are thinking of making about Shorts, to come out clearly and let the workers know what their intention is. I hope it will be to retain Shorts in the aircraft industry, not to go behind the company's back with a freely negotiated contract in Germany which is now officially supported by the Bonn Government.
I feel that I cannot do better than demand of the Government that they help British industry, that they buy British aircraft, that Shorts gets its fair share of this production work, and that we no longer look either to the United States or to aircraft companies which have sprung up in the past five or 10 years in Europe and share with them secrets and plans that we can well use here. There is a future for the aircraft industry in the United Kingdom. The 1957 White Paper was completely wrong. I read a recent report on the war in Vietnam, which has

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been discussed a great deal through the Strangers' Gallery. [Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I did not intend to provoke that one.
It is clear that the missile system there, known as S.A.M.—that is a missile system developed by the Russians and being used by the North Vietnamese—is not successful in stopping aircraft. Aircraft can continue in spite of this. The success rate of these missiles is less than 5 per cent. Therefore, there is a future for both military and for civil aircraft, and we must ensure that a proper proportion of these is built in the aircraft factories of this country.
8.01 p.m.
Mr. Norman Atkinson: I am certain that most of my hon. Friends will join forces with the hon. Member for Belfast (Mr. McMaster) in his reference to Shorts. It does not need emphasis from myself to underline the very valid points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) in his support of Shorts' case. I, as an active member of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, join forces with him in demanding of the Government the terms he laid down. We in the union have made our position very clear indeed both in this country and in Northern Ireland—or perhaps I should say that in both halves of our country we in the union have made our position very clear.
I have listened very carefully to every speech which has been made in the debate. It is obvious that one of the unmentionables in the debate is the question of the logic of public ownership, an extension to the Plowden Report. Before I go on to deal with unmentionables, perhaps I might congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister on his statement that he did not want to make any dogmatic comment on Government policy on this matter until he had listened to the debate; he wanted fully to understand the views being put to him by various hon. Members.
This is a magnificent shift. It is the first time since I came to the House that we have had recognition of this type. One of the first things that happened to me on coming here was that I was lined up outside and told by the Whips that the service they operated here was a kind of chiropody, that it was looking after our feet rather than our heads. In fact, my
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right hon. Friend the Chief Whip himself said that under no circumstances was I to expect any kind of psychiatric treatment from that department. Therefore, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister on reversing the approach of having back-bench Members with very small heads and large feet and on now giving us some very big heads and presumably small feet to go with them.
I repeat that I welcome my right hon. Friend's approach. I remember, as a very active member of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, taking part in many of the discussions the union had on the question of the aircraft industry and its future. I promise the House that I shall try to be brief now. If everyone follows my example, we shall be able to get in one or two more speeches. There has been some extremely well informed discussion throughout the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions and also throughout the whole of my organisation on the question of Plowden. Before Plowden we have discussed for some two years now the question of the development of the industry, how we see its future and what sort of recommendations we would be prepared to make about the reorganisation of the industry's structure.
Last year the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions produced its own miniature Plowden, namely, "Plan for Engineering", which contains a very full résumé of the situation in the industry and sets out its recommendations. I shall return to these recommendations in a moment, without spelling them out in detail.
The first thing is that we as a union, and the Confederation also, welcome Plowden because it is a factual inquiry. We reject its conclusions in regard to future ownership. This is important, because this aspect will be debated at some length in the coming months from a union point of view. The policy of the Confederation and of the Amalgamated Engineering Union is quite clear. In our "Plan for Engineering" we spell out in some detail the reasons why we believe that the whole of the sections that constitute the industry should be totally publicly owned. This is the policy of the A.E.U. and of the Confederation. We hope this year both to influence the national conference of the

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Labour Party and re-enter into the discussions started last year by the T.U.C.
I repeat that I do not want to go into the detail of this, not at this time of night, anyway, but I want to say that we now believe, having discussed Plowden, that this strengthens our conviction that public ownership of the industry is right. This seems logical to us. The possible merger suggested by my right hon. Friend makes little sense to us. To our way of thinking, it confirms still more the need for some public ownership as a means of rationalising the industry. We believe, too, that the only solution to the inherent problems which have been discussed at some length today is a political solution, in the sense that we need political power to change the whole system of the industry and thereby overcome the difficulties which have been spoken of.
We see the argument in the industry as one between private and public monopolies. This is a difference of principle that exists in the House. It is possibly a difference on this side of the House as to what the solution of the problems may be. None the less, we view the coming merger of the airframe groups as a furtherance of private monopoly. We believe that this strengthens our case that this is an argument as between private and public monopoly.
A challenge has been thrown down by various hon. Members opposite. I am sorry to re-create any indigestion from which they may have suffered or from which they said that they were suffering earlier on as a result of the argument on public ownership. Even if public ownership in itself did not produce another aircraft, and even if it did not add to the efficiency of the industry, we are convinced that it would not detract from it. Even if it added nothing technologically to the industry, it would certainly add a great deal in terms of industrial democracy. That is what we are very concerned about.
Therefore, even if the technological and managerial arguments are equal, in our view the scales are heavily weighed down in favour of a complete take-over of the industry. It is the union's policy to advocate that. I should like hon.
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Members opposite to get a copy of, the confederation's "Plan for Engineering", because that sets out our policy very clearly and discusses at some length why we believe in public ownership. I promise not to detain the House by developing that argument, though it was my intention to do so tonight because I think it necessary that at least someone should spell out in detail the whole position as regards public ownership of the industry.
Another argument, which again comes from my own experience and is confirmed by the experience of people alongside whom I have worked in the technical world, is based on the inadequacy of the machine available at present for the exchange of ideas and the exchange of technological information. When we develop our ideas in this connection, too, we are led to the conclusion that there should be extensive public ownership throughout.
As the House can readily imagine, one of the subjects discussed a good deal in the trade union movement during the past month or so has been the Minority Report by Mr. Aubrey Jones. One of the reasons why we urge public ownership of the industry is not only that it would be an extension of industrial democracy but that it would form an integral part of our incomes policy. In our view, the Department of Economic Affairs would find part of its struggle against inflation and our economic troubles very much assisted by a recognition of the need for public ownership and the extension of the democratic structure in industry. For this reason, we read Mr. Aubrey Jones's Minority Report with some interest. We can see reflected there his present attitude towards the whole problem of an incomes policy in this country. It does not need me to tell the House that we totally reject that Minority Report as in no way representing the views of our union.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will remember that he is speaking for his constituents, not for a trade union or any other vested interest. I am sure that he would wish to accentuate his remarks in that direction because we are all here elected by our constituents.
Mr. Atkinson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. It so happens that, by sheer coincidence, the great majority of my constituents are trade unionists, and a great proportion happen to be members of unions within the Confederation.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Do they want nationalisation? If the hon. Gentleman has consulted his 55,000 constituents, is he sure that they are wholeheartedly for nationalisation of this industry and others?
Mr. Atkinson: As far as I know. The tests of opinion which we have made and the discussions which have gone on seem to confirm that view. But the point should be made that the trade unions have no lobby anything like so powerful as the various interests I have seen at work here which have given briefs to hon. Members opposite, including those who have spoken in the debate today. Let it be clearly understood that we have some responsibilities on this side of the House to put a point of view which is, in fact, the majority point of view among those who are employed in the industry.
I want to push on now and turn to some other criticisms made by the trade unions. One of the points we make is that Plowden did not visit factories, except Shorts, in order to take oral evidence from trade unionists working on the shop floor. We believe this to be important because of our concern about the imbalance in the industry and some of the alternatives and diversification projects of which we have heard so much. We are to some extent disheartened by the omission from Plowden of any reference to the question of diversification.
I come now to a point which has been mentioned today, latterly by the hon. Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown), with reference to recommendation (b) in paragraph 523 of the Plowden Report,
"Concentration on projects for which development costs are not disproportionate in relation to the market."
Here, I refer to the history, the very sad history, of helicopter development and of Westland in particular, which many of us consider has had a very raw deal. In our view, the treatment of Westland in the past ought to be rectified by the present Government and some of the un-
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fortunate decisions taken in the past should be reversed.
On 26th February, 1962, both the Government of the day and B.E.A. withdrew support from what we believed at that time to be the most promising development in post-war aeronautical research in Britain. The right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) announced in the House, very casually, in answer to an Oral Question, that the Government had decided to scrub £11 million spent on the development of the Rotodyne. The right hon. Gentleman went on to make some brief comments about that decision, but what he was doing was disrupting the whole of the development upon which the Westland organisation had been built. Not only were we forgetting or writing off £11 million of the nation's money, but we were, in the view of my organisation and of the Confederation, making a fundamental error, as it has proved to be over and over again in subsequent years.
We condemned that decision by the right hon. Member for Monmouth as disastrous for our industry, and our appeal now is that we do all we can to get back to sanity in helicopter development and reorganise our ideas both in terms of military necessity—I think here of some of the ideas now emanating from the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Aviation—and in terms of market potential in this country and throughout the world. There is no need to exaggerate the needs which agriculture, for instance, has throughout the world for helicopters and for developments of the Rotodyne principle as it was in its earlier days. One of the tragedies is that, if developments had been carried further at that time, many of the initial problems experienced by the Westland designers in the early stages would by now have been overcome, as they have been overcome in other developments, and we should have been well on the way to capturing not only the European but the American market for this project. But the last Government denied us all that.
My last plea is for a reconsideration of what I regard as the somewhat stupid blanket embargo which seems to prevent our trading with Communist countries, not, of course, with weapons of defence or military aircraft but with such products

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as would have come from the Rotodyne project and which offer great potential in terms of East-West trade. I appeal to the Government to be a little more flexible about it instead of maintaining a blanket embargo on aircraft products. Their present attitude is in many ways far too rigid. I want them to look at other openings for East-West trade in products of this kind. We now know that certain Eastern European countries are very interested in British aeronautical products, and we ought to look again at such projects as helicopter development in this country as a means of meeting the need of that market without at the same time undermining our defence arrangements or our commitments in accordance with the Anglo-American understanding on the embargo.
I apologise for having run away with my time, although I must point out that I have spoken for fewer minutes than most of those who preceded me. We on this side share with hon. Members opposite a tremendous faith in our industry and the brilliance, the absolute genius in many ways, of our design teams. We have a wonderful industry which is oozing with craft of the highest order. I am quite certain, and my organisation is certain, that, if we can take the correct political decisions, we are once again on the brink of establishing a very great aircraft industry in this country.
8.18 p.m.
Mr. Eric Lubbock: I add my congratulations to those which have already been expressed to the Minister on his appointment and I wish him the very best of success in his extremely difficult task. If I may say so, the Prime Minister has chosen a rather peculiar moment to make the change, just at a time when so many difficult and, probably, controversial decisions are to be made, and the Minister, no matter how brilliant he may be, will certainly need time to pick up the threads and to understand the enormous problems of the industry. Seeing the Paymaster-General on the Government Front Bench, I am reminded that he used to say that the Tories changed their Ministers of Aviation three times a day, after meals. I hope that the Labour Government will not fall into the trap of changing Ministers of Aviation before meals.
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The Plowden Committee was asked to report on the future place and organisation of the aircraft industry in relation to the general economy. One would have thought that such terms of reference would have required it to make some estimate, however broad, of the numbers who would be employed in future in the industry. Unfortunately, the Committee found itself unable to make even the roughest estimate of the future size of the industry and could only say that a substantial reduction in the numbers employed would be necessary.
Needless to say, this has caused the gravest anxiety among the industry's 250,000 workers and I am sure that many of them will be relieved to hear that the Government have in mind only a reduction to 200,000 as mentioned by the Minister, and not to a figure much lower than that which they may have got the impression was recommended by the Report.
I do not think that there can be any disguising of the fact that the Government's policy of buying large numbers of military aircraft in particular from the United States is partly responsible for the present state of affairs. But neither can the Tories escape their share of responsibility because, while in office, they initiated three vastly expensive projects—the P1154, the HS681 and the TSR2—which would have placed an insupportable burden on the taxpayers in the last few years of this decade if we had continued with all of them.
Mr. Mulley: Would not the hon. Gentleman also add that, had we continued these projects, the R.A.F. would have been left without adequate aircraft to carry out its defence duties?
Mr. Lubbock: Certainly. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in that particular criticism of the last Government's policy. My quarrel with the present Government is not that they found it necessary to cancel these projects, but that they intend to replace all of them —assuming that the F111 decision goes the wrong way—with American planes and thereby cut down the size of our industry by much more than I consider necessary.
Mr. Burden: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the likelihood is

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that, had the TSR2 project been continued, the R.A.F. would have got its aircraft probably earlier than it will if the F111 is ordered and that the TSR2 would probably have been an infinitely better aircraft?
Mr. Lubbock: The hon. Gentleman may be right, bearing in mind that we are told that the F111 delivery date is steadily being put back into the future. Neverthless, I think that we must admit that the TSR2 would have been a vastly expensive project if we had continued it and that, combined with the HS681 and the P1154, it would have meant—and let us put it in terms that people can understand—that we would have been asked to pay higher taxes. I understand the policy of the Conservatives to be, among other things, to reduce taxation. They must admit that to be consistent with that policy it would have been impossible for them to continue with all these three projects.
We understand from the Plowden Report that as much as 80 per cent. of the output of the industry is accounted for by military orders and since the Government are already committed to keeping defence spending to within a total of £2,000 million a year it must follow that no increase in the size of military orders can be permitted in the last few years of this decade. As I was saying, within this total, large sums have already been earmarked for two American planes—the C130 and the Phantom—so that there must inevitably be less work available for the British industry.
I was at Hull last week and the Chancellor of the Exchequer there accused me of being alarmist when I suggested that there should be contingency planning so as to ensure that alternative work will be available for the workers to be displaced from the industry—as many as 50,000, we learn today. I always thought that the Labour Party believed in planning, but there is no sign of a plan for the industry yet from the Government and I gather from the Chancellor's remarks that he does not consider that one is necessary. I think that it is vitally necessary that we should have a plan for the industry to take account of the decision on the Canberra replacement so that we can ensure the smooth transition of the industry to a smaller size without wastage of the talents and the training
982
of the workers to be displaced. In formulating that plan, there must, of course, be the fullest possible consultation with the unions concerned and with the managements.
I was interested to hear the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) say that we should have a study along the lines of "Project Horizon", in the United States. This was a study of the future projects that the American aircraft industry should undertake and was initiated by the late President Kennedy. I suggested in this House on 13th May, 1963, that we too should have such a study. Tory Ministers neglected the opportunity to do something all the time they were in office. So I do not think that it lies in the mouth of the right hon. Member for Mitcham to make that suggestion now.
In looking at the next few years, I believe that the decision on the Canberra replacement is of absolutely vital importance and one of the main reasons for the two-month extension on the option to buy the F111 was so that we could have the opportunity to debate the Plowden Report and Ministers could hear the views of the House before coming to a decision. I am sorry that not more has been said by hon. Members on both sides about this aspect of the Report, therefore, or the implications of the Report for this decision.
I have said all along that I am bitterly opposed to purchasing yet another American plane, the F111. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) has already mentioned the visit that he and the right hon. Member for Mitcham and I paid to the Dassault works and the opportunity we had to discuss it with the three companies involved in the project. I am more convinced than ever that this is the plane we should order.
We in the Liberal Party agree wholeheartedly with the Plowden recommendation that far greater stress than in the past must be put behind the policy of collaboration with Europe—and here we have a crucial test of whether or not the Government accept that principle.
In the debate on the Canberra replacement held just before Christmas, it sounded as though the Secretary of State for Defence had made up his mind in

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favour of the F111 and—worse—to distort the facts in favour of that decision when he spoke about the delivery date of the Spey Mirage 4. He was undoubtedly wrong. I happen to know, however, that he had the facts at his disposal at the time.
I beg the Secretary of State for Defence to think again. The Spey Mirage makes sense, technically, industrially, financially and politically. First, it can fulfil all the operational requirements of the OR343 except for take-off and landing distances. That is no obstacle in the case of the Phantom. The P1154 took off and landed vertically. That requirement was replaced by the Phantom, which needs 2,500 yards of concrete. So if a short take-off and landing is not required of the Phantom, why was it required of the Mirage?
Mr. Raphael Tuck: Not only that, but the cancellation of the HS681 and the P1154 by the Government might suggest that the Service chiefs place far less emphasis now on vertical or short takeoff than they did three years ago.
Mr. Lubbock: Absolutely. That was precisely the point I was trying to make, but I am grateful to the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) for underlining it for me.
On the technical aspect of this decision, I want to point out that the Spey engine in the Mirage would be practically identical with that which we are having to put in the Phantom, thus decreasing the inventory of the Service and making the problems of maintenance very much less than they would otherwise be. This plane could be in squadron service by the end of 1969 if an order were placed now, not 1971 as the Secretary of State for Defence has said. Its avionics system is as good in practically every respect as that which the TSR2 would have had.
If the Royal Air Force requires the Canberra replacement to be in service even earlier than this date, then it could do worse than order Atar-engined Mirages which are now coming off the production line in quantity. We saw No. 50 coming off the production line, and this underlines what was said by the hon. Member for Govan about secrecy, for the French do not find it necessary to conceal the number of planes
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which they have—the number of the aircraft is painted on the fuselage.
This project would make industrial sense because at least 50 per cent. of the work—and the hon. Member for Govan suggested that it would be 60 per cent.—would be done in British factories. It makes financial sense because the plane is at least £500,000 per copy cheaper than the F111, making a saving of £50 million on the whole project.
Finally, politically it would be a tremendous boost to Anglo-French co-operation. The hon. Member for Govan will confirm that the French look on every purchase of American planes by this country as a hole in the wall which we are trying jointly to build up against American technological domination, and I believe that they are right in this.
During the Recess, I went to Rome in the company of the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, and the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten), as the hon. Member for Banbury has already said. We discussed with Italian Parliamentarians the prospects for co-operation between our two countries on aircraft development and construction. We warned them then about the dangers of becoming too heavily involved with the United States, about the dangers of control and domination which the hon. member for Govan has mentioned, and in those discussions we received the full support of Her Majesty's Government. Surely the same arguments apply in the two cases. We can hardly go around preaching about Anglo-European co-operation in the case which happens to suit us with Italy while, at the same time, planning to undermine the future of our own aircraft industry by capitulating to American high pressure salesmen.
I want to refer to another immediate decision of great importance which has not been mentioned in the debate so far. It is what is to happen to the remaining 10 Super VC10s which are on the shop floor at Weybridge. I wrote to the former Minister on 23rd November, last year, after raising this issue in the debate the day before. I gave him some calculations of my own which did not seem to confirm those which B.O.A.C. had made of its future fleet requirements.
Since then there has been a powerful article in Flight by Mr. J. M. Ramsden—

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it appeared on 27th January—pointing out that in the past B.O.A.C. had made enormous errors several times already in its capacity arithmetic. In particular, in July, 1964, it was saying that it needed only seven Supers by March, 1968, while a year later it agreed that it needed 17 between now and March, 1969.
I believe that it is still making the mistake of underestimating the capacity requirement in March, 1969—and I have said this to the Minister—because it has provided in its requirements for an annual rate of growth of only a little over 10 per cent., as compared with the 14 per cent. increase in capacity which has been provided in the present year, 196566, and that in spite of this increase of 14 per cent. which it is putting on this year, I am delighted to say that it has record load factors, particularly on the North Atlantic, its most lucrative route. B.O.A.C. should be expansive and plan for the steady rate of expansion which it has had in the past, and this is the opinion not only of myself, but of many in the industry.
Therefore, I think that B.O.A.C. should consider the possibility of taking up at least some of the remaining 10 Supers. It is under a contractual commitment to the British Aircraft Corporation for these aircraft and it would have to pay a substantial sum in compensation if the aircraft were cancelled. A note to this effect should have been included in B.O.A.C.'s last balance sheet and we should be given some idea of the sum involved. I think that it would run into many millions of pounds.
Mr. Burden: £500,000 per aircraft.
Mr. Lubbock: Which gives a sum of about £5 million. The public should know about this.
The other immediate issue on which I wish to touch—I will not deal with it at any length, because the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) has already gone into it in depth—is the plight of Short Bros. & Harland. I am given to understand, by the representatives of the trade unions who called on us yesterday, that the workload of the company is only sufficient to keep half the workers employed beyond the end of this year. The Plowden Committee took an extre-
986
mely pessimistic view on the subject of the company's future.
I agree with what has been said already about the undesirability of committees of this kind making comments on matters of political judgment, saying as this Committee did that if special assistance was justified in order to help employment in Northern Ireland, it should take the form of a measure for promoting general economic development, and not specific help for the aircraft activities of Shorts. It should not have made this comment, it is quite irregular, but I disagree with it in any case.
It is quite unacceptable as a guide to the short term measures required. It is unthinkable that any Government, of whatever complexion, should allow 4,000 trained men to be thrown on the scrap-heap in less than 12 months time. In the immediate future Shorts ought to have some direct support, some special measures to avoid an uncontrolled run-down—here I am quoting the Minister. In particular this means that the Minister must give Short Bros. the go-ahead on the V.F.W. 614 short-range airliner, for which there are tremendous potential markets.
I found that the Plowden approach to organisation was very difficult to understand. It said that there was very little competition between the groups whether on the civil or military side and either on engines or airframes. It said:
"Foreign rivals provide the real spur."
It also says that mergers between two major airframe groups and two major engine groups would produce economies in overheads and design facilities and thus enable production to be rationalised. After saying all that it goes on to say that no firm conclusion on the matter of mergers would be justified. If we are to compete with the American giants on an equal footing then the aircraft industry must be concentrated.
I was glad to hear the Minister say that he would seek to direct a merger between B.A.C. and Hawker-Siddeley aircraft industries. I do not see why he does not follow this logically and seek to promote a merger between Bristol Siddeley and Rolls Royce engine companies. I would like to have a much more comprehensive explanation of the difference between these two problems

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before I am satisfied that he is right on this.
The question of nationalisation is quite irrelevant to the real problem of the aircraft industry. Now that it is being raised in the Plowden Report it is bound to create the same kind of uncertainty within the industry that has existed for so long in the steel industry, thereby lowering the morale of the workers employed in that great industry.
As Mr. Aubrey Jones has pointed out in his Minority Report, if a case for the nationalisation of the industry has been made out on the grounds of a supposed conflict of interest between the taxpayer as the principal and practically only customer on the one hand, and the private shareholder on the other, then a similar justification could be advanced for nationalising a host of other firms whose products are bought, for example, by British Railways, by the National Health Service or by the Central Electricity Generating Board. While we are about it should we not also nationalise the manufacture of pharmaceuticals, the production of X-ray machines, of diesel locomotives or steam turbines? Precisely the same argument applies. All are suppliers to a body directly controlled by the Government or to a nationalised industry.
This is a very dangerous trend that ought to be recognised by anti-Socialists. There is no suggestion that the customer is being taken for a ride by the aircraft industry. In the one and only case where an excess of profit was made, the contractor was forced to hand back the whole of the sum to the Government, and quite rightly so. As far as I am aware, that is the only case on record. On the other hand, the Government, as is shown by the Plowden Report, have a shocking record as a customer of the industry.
As The Times says in a powerful article this morning, most of the present difficulties can be attributed to procurement delays, frequent changes in specifications and abrupt cancellations.
The last thing that we want to do is to make a capricious and unreasonable customer into the proprietor of the business. Instead, the Government should overhaul their own procurement machinery and this cumbersome incubus of financial and technical control. If
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that is done, and a firm declaration is made, as the Minister made this afternoon, and repeated time and again that we intend to remain in business with our European friends in this rapidly advancing field of technology, the Plowden Report will have marked a turning point in the affairs of the aircraft industry.
8.40 p.m.
Mr. Raphael Tuck: We are told that aircraft make a lot of nasty noise, but the noise from these benches this afternoon has been in complete harmony. There has been so much harmony that the debate has been almost dull. Most of the ground has been covered. Therefore, I should like to highlight one or two points which I think should be highlighted.
First, I agree with the report of the Society of British Aerospace Companies when it says that national policy should encourage the growth of a technologically progressive industry and not stultify its advance by pressing for its contraction.
I welcome the recommendation in the Plowden Report for greater Government support for the industry, but it seems pessimistic about export prospects. In 1965, exports were 50 per cent. more than they were in 1964. However, I agree that much of the future of the aircraft industry, as the Report says, rests upon Franco-British co-operation. I do not think that that can be over-emphasised.
However, it is not only co-operation with France and Europe which is desired. Co-operation with the Commonwealth should be considered. I agree wholeheartedly with what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) and the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) said. Co-operation with the Commonwealth would enable vast cuts to be made in research and development costs. I asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister a Question on this. He said that the matter was under review. I hope that the Government will consider it deeply and favourably, because it brings into view vast cuts in expenditure and great advantages in design and production.
I agree that purchases from the United States should be the exception and not the rule because in this way foreign exchange is preserved and the advance of technology in Britain stimulated. It

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is all very well to say, "Let us find the cheapest market". The F111 is not the cheapest market. It is between £500,000 and £1 million dearer than the Spey/Mirage. But even assuming that it were the cheapest market, that consideration must give way to the political, economic and strategic consequences of buying abroad. It is all very well to say, "Let us give the R.A.F. the best plane possible. Nothing short of the best is good enough." I have to use a car. It would be all very well for me to say, "Let me have the best car available, the Rolls Royce", but my pocket does not extend to that.
Mr. Burden: The hon. Gentleman does not have to fight in a Rolls Royce or in the car which he has, whereas the aircraft which we are providing for men of the R.A.F. are weapons of war which they might be asked to fly, and they must have weapons which give them the opportunity to get back.
Mr. Tuck: I agree; but my analogy was not complete. The hon. Gentleman did not let me finish.
I need something which will get me from Parliament to home and to my constituency in reasonable time. A Ford will d o that, and, therefore, I get a Ford. Applying this analogy to aircraft, if the requirements to the R.A.F. east of Suez are satisfied by the Spey/Mirage, it does not mean that we need get an aircraft which does something that the R.A.F. does not want done. All that we need to do is to satisfy the requirements. It has been proved that the Spey/Mirage measures well up to the requirements of the R.A.F. and certainly to what could be done by the TSR2, with the exception of take-off; and I have said something about that with which the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) agreed.
Participation by the government has been canvassed. The right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) said, "No State ownership; no participation by the Government". One would not expect him to say otherwise: he is a Conservative. But he who pays the piper should call the tune. In those circumstances, Government participation is vitally necessary. I will be accused of being a Socialist. I am a Socialist. I am for the
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clause, the whole clause and nothing but the clause.
In welcoming the Report with the reservations which I have expressed, I ask the Government to consider deeply the consequences to the aircraft industry and to the prospects of it before they take the precipitate step of buying the F111.
8.46 p.m.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I welcome the opportunity at this late stage to take part in the debate. Most of us have been thinking about for a long time and studying the implications of the Plow-den Report. It is difficult in 14 minutes remaining to me to do justice to an extremely complicated subject.
We have debated this subject numbers of times. We had a Supply day on it on 9th February last year, we had the defence debate on 4th March, we followed that up by the Air Estimates debate on 10th March, we had the interesting interjection in the middle of the Budget speech about the cancellation of the TSR2 on 6th April and the censure debate on 13th April. So it has gone on throughout the year.
The last occasion when we debated the subject was 13th December. On each occasion we have been told from the Government Front Bench that we must await the outcome of the Defence Review, including our obligations east of Suez and in the Middle East. Therefore, one cannot help being a little disappointed that when we have now been told that we are not to get a defence review report, in spite of the build-up and ballyhoo which accompanied those statements, we still have not had anything very firm from the Government benches.
We have had the Plowden Report in our hands for nearly two months and, no doubt, the Government would have had a sight of its major recommendations earlier than that. Still we have no decisions. The only decisions concerning the aircraft industry are those which Mr. Worcester claims was his plan: that is to say, that we should have the wholesale cancellation of the three most promising projects and the Government would also have cancelled the Concord had we had the opportunity to do it.
Perhaps the greatest shame is that the industry should have been left in doubt, and for so desperately long. I do not

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wish to embarrass hon. Members opposite too much, but I must remind them of what they were saying 15 months ago about the planning of British industry. We have had their National Plan, with a great deal of publicity from the First Secretary. In "Let's go with Labour for the new Britain", the party opposite said:
"Within the national plan each industry will know both what is expected of it and what help it can expect—in terms of exports, investment, production and employment."
We have waited 15 months.
I was waiting open-mouthed, as many hon. Members must have been today, to hear whether, at last, we were to receive an indication of what was to be the future of this great industry. All that we have received from the Minister of Aviation, whom we wish well in his new job, was the statement that the Government would establish a further monopoly, if that were acceptable to both sides, in the airframe industry and that they would examine in what form public money might be put into the industry. We got nothing further. It is disappointing that for this important industry we should still have no clear indication of where the Government stand.
I now turn to three main factors which have emerged from this debate. If the Government wish to learn the feelings of both sides of the House, perhaps they will have got an indication from this debate. As to finance, in the short time that is available to me I cannot go further than support what I understand the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) said in this respect. It is irrelevant and it is no solution to suggest that we should have partial nationalisation of the industry. That would solve none of the problems which have been highlighted in the Plowden Report. It would, in fact, be likely to slow down the ponderous machinery of government.
Mr. Burden: Is it not true that there has been what might be termed partial nationalisation of Shorts for a long time and that this has solved nothing for Shorts?
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: That is absolutely true. The Plowden Report mentions that the Government directors would know exactly what was going on. From recent Press indications, however, it seems that
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the Government directors of Shorts know very little of what is going on. This is certainly no solution in that respect.
Mr. Atkinson: Is not this a clear indication that we should now go the full distance because the Shorts experiment has failed? The reason for failure is that it was not integrated into the industry as a whole. Is this not the case for public ownership?
Sir Ian On-Ewing: I am sorry, I cannot follow that one. I have seven minutes in which to try to deploy some arguments on a serious note concerning the whole organisation of Government as it affects the aircraft industry.
I support what my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) said in his admirable opening speech. believe, however, that the Government and our Service officers may have been too ambitious in framing the operational requirement. We still have not indoctrinated our service officers, great as they are, with the desirability of cost consciousness. A person who desires a long and successful future of service in his particular Department naturally wishes to build contingencies into any equipment that he is ordering so that it can be used in any possible circumstances, from the Arctic to the Equator and from nought to 100,000 feet. Practically everything is put in, including the kitchen stove. We cannot afford that, and I wonder if we are not too ambitious and if a better understanding between the customer and the producer would not lead to considerable financial savings and, incidentally, savings in time as well.
The trouble is that we have in our present organisation a buffer state between the user and the producer, and that buffer state is the Ministry of Aviation. I wonder whether we have not got too many people there of perhaps too low a calibre. Theirs is a highly technical job in a scientific sphere. The people who should be there are people of the highest possible training—industrial, engineering, scientific, cost accounting and financial training.
It is interesting to examine the Estimates for past years, because one finds that in 1959–60 there were 7,690 people in the headquarters of the Ministry of Aviation, whereas in the Estimates for the current

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year, 1965–66, the figure is shown to have gone up to nearly 8,500. Nearly 1,000 people have been brought into the Department whilst the industry as a whole has been running down from a peak of 310,000 to 265,000.
The industry is carrying that burden, and the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) mentioned—and how right he is—that some of these committees are quite unmanageable. It is really ridiculous to visualise a design committee of 140 persons, and I would like to know what the cost of that was to the taxpayer. However, it is the cost in time and efficiency with which we are more concerned, and I am sure that the new Minister of Aviation will come with a new broom and look at the situation with real care and attention.
I may say, having served in the Admiralty for five years, that he will discover that it is a very tough job to run down numbers within a Ministry. I commend this to him. Let him be ruthless and, where there is a choice between numbers and calibre, choose calibre every time. A small streamlined, high calibre Ministry can be of service to our community, rather than a large amorphous mass. I notice that the Sunday newspapers are still advertising under the heading of, "Join an Expanding Industry". That is a little hollow after all we have learned, and no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will put it right.
Mr. Mulley: If I understand the hon. Gentleman's message, it is that I should follow his precept and not his example in the Admiralty.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: I gave an undertaking in the Admiralty that I would cut numbers of staff by 5 per cent., 1 per cent. in every year. Whilst I was there, I kept to it, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will do just as well. I may say that I cut down the number of admirals, although when before the election the Prime Minister quoted them he quotes such people as the Duke of Edinburgh and one or two other honorary admirals in order to inflate the numbers.
I turn now to the other matter which has been entirely left out. Plowden completely missed the organisation of the industry itself. I reflect whether perhaps in retrospect it was wise to choose a man,
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a very distinguished ex-civil servant trained in the Treasury, to head the examination.
This was an examination in an industrial sphere. It seems to me to have much of the stamp of the Treasury candle-end philosophy, looking always at the monetary set-up and not the motivation of an industry of this nature. I am afraid that the Plowden Report reflects that Lord Plowden does not understand how designers, engineers and project people really feel about their dedication to the industry and what they could do if given a clear lead by the Government of the day.
If one reorganises an industry which arose out of the policy of the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) and in the early 1960s produces shotgun marriages and a streamlined or rationalised industry, obviously one has tremendous management problems. I think that when anyone who knows some of the problems of getting good management, and co-ordinated management, looks at the geographical map which appears in the Report at page 112 and sees the factories which are scattered all over the country, he realises how difficult it is to produce a really efficiently organised and managed industry.
Plowden makes much also of the fact that productivity in the industry is low, but surely this again is a slight reflection on the Government's organisation. I am not seeking to blame any particular Government. On many occasions the industry has had to wait while the Government, or the Minister of Aviation, have been trying to clear the matter with the Treasury. It is always on a hand-to-mouth basis. Very seldom is the industry allowed to go ahead and plan a proper development and production line.
I wonder whether we have the trade unions with us. I was glad to hear one hon. Gentleman opposite say that he was speaking for the A.E.U., and I hope that, unlike what happens in the shipbuilding industry, there is no question of demarcation. Certainly, productivity in this industry is low, as is shown by the Plowden Report, but if one takes to heart the series of Daily Mirror articles, one sees that it is not lower, compared with other countries, than in the chemical industry or the steel industry. In all these spheres it was found that in this country

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about three men did the same amount of work as one man in the United States. Therefore, the figures which we read in the Plowden Report are not radically different from those which the Daily Mirror published concerning other industries.
Nearly a year ago we heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say in this House that as a result of cancelling British aircraft we could deploy the displaced skilled personnel in aid of our exports. That was a pipe dream. I do not know who put it in the right hon. Gentleman's brief, but it was absolute nonsense. One does not redeploy people from the aircraft industry to make exports.
I have grown up in the electronic and light engineering industry, and in one of the firms with which I am associated we tried to engage some aeronautical people. They are dedicated men, but they work to very close limits indeed. They work very slowly and accurately, but they do not work to the commercial standards which one needs in the export market, and the idea that one can ship across 50,000 people and make use of these highly skilled personnel to help our export trade is a pipe dream and unrealistic.
That is why so many of them have gone abroad, to work in South Africa, where the armament industry is expanding, in Germany, and in the United States. They have done so because they are dedicated people. They believe that there is a future for our industry. They want to work in it, and now they are waiting, as we all are, for some firm lead from the Government to show that this industry has the future which we on these benches believe it has.
9.2 p.m.
Mr. Keith Stainton: The Motion is that this House should take note of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the aircraft industry, the Plowden Report, and I must repeat what my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) said, that we are grateful to the Government and to the Minister for handling the matter in this way. I think that the exchange of ideas this afternoon has proved that both sides are anxious to root out the essential difficult problems of this large and important industry, and to try
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our best to assist in its future sane and economic development.
We on this side of the House are grateful for what I imagine is an almost unprecedented offer by a Minister of the Crown to exchange views with an Opposition spokesman regarding the planning of a Government Department and its relationships with industry. I say this not facetiously but for the record. We are grateful for that gesture, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend will contribute whatever he can to this end.
We must take note of this Report against a background which I think must be spelled out somewhat. First, it is against the background of the cancellation of the TSR2, the HS681 and the P1154, and the fact that by depleting the industry's order book the Government have clearly aggravated whatever essential difficulties there were. It may be that sooner or later—and probably sooner rather than later—the Government would have had to face what are clearly structural problems within the industry. There is no doubt that these cancellations have precipitated a very difficult situation.
The Minister was slightly, precocious in suggesting that the production of these three aircraft would have left the Royal Air Force without the aircraft it needs. I say "slightly precocious" guardedly but advisedly, since it is difficult to compare these aircraft unless and until they are in service, and from all we know the TSR2 was certainly the most sophisticated aircraft on the stocks.
The cancellations to which I have referred were all in lines of succession. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown) referred to 33 major projects having been killed halfway through during the past decade. The position with which the industry is now confronted is that the only development work of any magnitude left to it at the moment is the Concord and the Jaguar, and in place of the cancellations we face dollar expenditure running into hundreds of millions of pounds in the purchase of United States aircraft of inferior performance at a time when we are deeply concerned with the future of the £ and with paying our way in the world.
This possible link-up with America was referred to by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), when he

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hinted at the possible danger it might imply to future Anglo-European cooperation. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to bear in mind the fact that whatever the rights and wrongs of the Spey/Mirage the fundamental point of European co-operation cannot be lightly put on one side.
Before passing from that to other aspects of the subject I would also query the progress which the Concord is making, in reference to the storm cloud that may be threatening the industry. Is it true that the research and development costs have escalated to £380 million and will shortly break through the £400 million mark? Are we really concerned with a programme that is going to cost between £1,000 million and £2,000 million for about 120 or 140 aircraft? We must have some answer to this question tonight because the magnitude of these figures has an enormous bearing on the future viability of our aircraft industry.
These cancellations have led to about 8,000 redundancies, and several aircraft manufacturing plants throughout the country, including Short Bros. at Belfast, are feeling deep anxiety. Speaking on behalf of the Opposition, I cannot say that for all time Short's will carry on in the aircraft industry, at least on its present basis, but I do say unhesitatingly that it is intolerable to think that the work there might diminish by half and that the payroll might be cut down by between 3,000 and 4,000 workers by the end of the year. There must be a controlled rundown, and I was delighted to hear the Minister talk in terms of avoiding an uncontrolled rundown.
But we did not have a very straightforward intervention on the question of the VFW614. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will be a little more forthcoming about that tonight. One of the principal arguments advanced by the Minister's predecessor was that redundancies in the aircraft industry would release skilled labour for other highly technical trades. Of the 8,000 or so redundancies the Minister of Labour has records of not more than half, and about three quarters of that half have left the aircraft industry. Perhaps the most valuable element—the design element—has emigrated to the Continent, South Africa and America.
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There are also three further background points which must be noted with some force when considering the Report. I would point first to the non-appearance of the long-awaited Defence Review. As the Report says:
"In the Defence field, the outlook is particularly obscure"
and goes to on say:
"and might remain so even when the outcome of the current Defence Review is known."
Perhaps, then, we are missing little, but at least it would have been preferable if the House itself had made this judgment instead of debating Plowden now in a complete vacuum about our future defence requirements.
My second background point is the inhibitions which exist at present in the aircraft industry as the result of what might best be described as "post-Ferranti nerves". My understanding is that there has been a tightening of contract terms which is self-defeating because of the administrative log-jam within the Ministry. Perhaps this could be the reason for the advertisements by the Minister of Aviation:
"Technical class career in cost and estimating—you get plenty of scope and variety within our expanding organisation."
But the fact remains that there is this tremendous log-jam and a series of holding contracts.
A much more important point is that despite the fact that the Lang Committee reported as long ago as the first volume's appearance in July, 1964—the second volume appeared in February, 1965—there has been as yet—I am open to contradiction by the Parliamentary Secretary on this point—no fundamental change in the technique of price-fixing as between the Government and the aircraft industry.
The third background point which, oddly enough, has not been touched on, let alone developed, in the debate concerns the implications of the new investment incentives. As I understand the present situation, the policy now sponsored by the Government leads to the exclusion of aircraft from investment incentives, which seems certain to hit sales to British independent airlines. The exclusion of aircraft from these grants is surely also a serious disincentive to the development of the use of light aircraft

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in Britain, where we already lag far behind the United States and Europe. Furthermore, the exclusion of capital assets destined for use abroad on leasing terms could also be a most severe setback to the industry's exports, as we have witnessed in part, I believe, with the frustration of the exports to the Lebanon.
Were it not so tragic it would be amusing to contrast the endeavours of the President of the Board of Trade with his export incentives of 1½ to 2 per cent. with the abolition of investment allowances, which, in this context, were worth about 30 per cent. of the initial cost—
Mr. Mulley: Would the bon. Member explain how he sees investment allowances applying to the sale of aircraft abroad?
Mr. Stainton: I do not want to get too involved in this, but I think that I defined it reasonably well when I talked about "capital assets destined for use abroad on leasing terms". The asset remains the property of the company in this country and the capital cost of the export is returned by way of a leasing, a rental for a period of years. This equates just the same over a period as an export financed by the Export Credits Guarantee Department, for example. So much for the immediate background points.
There is one other matter which must be placed in proper perspective, and I hope that in doing so I will succeed in getting the record of the British aircraft industry somewhat straighter, whatever may be its shortcomings. In his introductory speech this afternoon the Minister talked about a comparable industry. When he was challenged, he muttered about computers and machine tools which, by any definition, are not comparable since one must define the starting point in any of these things. I suggest that the narrowest comparability is in terms of the aviation industry overseas.
We have heard much about the losses and lack of success of the British aerospace companies. I will return to this later, when I will try to define the problems confronting us. It is no use sweeping the issue under the carpet, for there are problems of great magnitude. Let us
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equally appreciate that the Americans, too, have had a very good quota of troubles and setbacks. Reading the Report of the Task Force on National Aviation Goals—Project Horizon—which was set in hand by the late President Kennedy in March 1961, it is clear that that Report, like Plowden, was stimulated not only by the need to try to peer into the future but, just as much, as a result of deep financial worries among both the United States airlines and the American air vehicle manufacturers, a very close parallel indeed to the situation which now exists here.
Professor Sturmey, in his paper in the Economic Journal of December 1964, quoted the following cumulative losses to 1962 on three American civil aircraft; the Boeing 707, £59 million, the DC8, £88 million, and the Convair 880–990, £152 million. The Convair was produced by General Dynamics, and I believe that that company returned the biggest corporate loss at any time in any one year anywhere in the world. Fortune magazine was stimulated in early 1962 to run a series of articles entitled "How a great corporation got out of control".
To this list of civil United States aircraft can be added the military failures, headed no doubt by North American Aviation's XB70, costing perhaps 270 million dollars each spread over the three or four only which have been produced. While I am full of praise for the French Aviation industry and the Caravelle, it should be noted that it is understood that even with sales of 220 the Caravelle is still financially in the red.
This reference to United States experience is also helpful in so far as it leads to the observation that even in America, despite the size of the market, to operate in a highly competitive civil sphere the aircraft manufacturer requires a substantial cushion of other activities and sources of revenue where the United States Government is the dominant factor.
It is a fair generalisation to say that United States aircraft manufacturers are deeply worried if these other activities fall below 75 per cent. to 70 per cent. Of great significance is the fact that the industry there has turned to the United States Government for financial investment in the development of supersonic transport aircraft.

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This feature was touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher in terms of the relative position of the British industry—the "Siamese twins", as he called them, of military and civil production. Unless we keep this essential link in mind there will be a gap; and this link has, in the structure of the industry, been important and, in part, lacking in this country.
So far I have, I hope, established, first, the background of the immediate and sizeable difficulties in the United Kingdom industry and, secondly, the difficulties of the industry and the problems of analysis which have not been alleviated by the absence of the Defence Review and which have probably been aggravated by the lack of action on the Lang Report, new investment incentives and so on. Thirdly, I have established the fact, I hope, that the United Kingdom's problems are by no means unique in this sphere.
In any event, it is clear that the industry's future gives cause for deep concern. Costs are at a great disadvantage when compared with those in America, but there are various elements of costs, and the fact that, in terms of productivity, the American industry is about 3 to 3½ times as productive as our own industry causes us to ask: what is the efficiency and organisation of our own industry? Again, the returns on assets to the industry would be strikingly less even than the Plowden Report shows them to be if one added back the losses that had been borne by the Government.
In reviewing this debate, I suggest that the House must address itself to three basic questions. First of all, do we want an aircraft industry and, if so, how do we ensure its economic soundness and competitive position? Secondly, how do we support the search for knowledge on which technical progress depends? We cannot just have an aircraft industry and then put up the shutters and hope that it will chug merrily along. Thirdly, where in all this should the Government's financial control and regulatory and other responsibilities begin and end? These are the three themes that one extracts from Plowden and from this debate.
The Plowden Report helps us substantially, but not completely, to discern
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some of the answers to those three questions. I say "not completely", because, for example, on the subject of efficiency the Committee says in paragraph 430:
"We lacked the time to look ino these aspects of efficiency deeply enough to make detailed recommendations."
It suggested, in fact, that another committee should be set up in this area.
On the other hand, in paragraph 48 we read that
"… the United States worker … is provided with 3–3½ times the fixed assets available to the British worker."
The British Aircraft Corporation has, I believe, only twelve electronically-controlled machine tools. McDorrell, in America, with roughly the same manpower as B.A.C., has an output which is probably threefold, and currently a 3-year investment programme of £18 million for this type of machine tool, with the United States Government providing half. The B.A.C., to judge from its accounts, is just absorbing in new capital investment last year its annual depreciation figure of £3 million; colloquially, it is just topping up.
On the question of research, there is little analysis in the Report of precisely the areas of past activity and general adequacy and competency to form a clear view of the future level of requirements. On the question of the future of the Ministry of Aviation, although considerable useful data emerges on the Government complex as a whole, we find it stated in paragraph 505:
"We have not considered this subject at all deeply."
As my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) pointed out, the whole question of space is only just touched on. Finally, on the question of a Government shareholding in B.A.C. and Hawker Siddeley, there is the powerful dissenting memorandum over the signature of Mr. Aubrey Jones.
We on this side draw a number of conclusions from the Report and from the debate, and before I briefly run through them, perhaps I could preface them with a reminder to the Government of the demand made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham for the publication of a White Paper on these matters before Easter. We feel that it is essential to get stability of some sort

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back into the industry as quickly as we possibly can.
The first point is that we want an aircraft industry. I was rather charmed by the way in which the Minister asked: do we need an aircraft industry? That is how the right hon. Gentleman put it. My answer to that question is, "Yes, we do want an aircraft industry," and I am sure that that is the overpowering opinion of the House tonight.
Secondly, we on this side of the House are not prepared to prejudge the size of the aircraft industry, but we recognise that in the event a decline is probably inevitable. We do not accept within this context that the most advanced type of aircraft is not for us. That is far too sweeping a conclusion. Advanced today is "old hat" tomorrow. That seems to be our position as accurately as I can put it now. Therefore, design work is urgently required in the industry. This is a point we are deeply concerned about. Fresh work is urgently required in terms of design unless design teams are to proceed to disintegration. We should welcome very much an indication from the Parliamentary Secretary as to the views on airbus, the short haul air liner and, possibly, the future of the variable-wing development with the French.
Production work may also be necessary. I was very impressed by the case put forward by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) and the hon. Member for Orpington regarding the possibility of the Spey/Mirage to fill in the gap in lieu of the F111. I am not prepared to voice an opinion on this point, but the case is important and the Government should give a reasonable reply to those statements. We are concerned about the industry's basic efficiency. It must be improved and the whole speed of its operations may be radically speeded up.
On the present finance, research and development, work should not be curtailed but should be re-aligned. We protest at the arbitrary manner in which Plowden has tackled this problem in the Report. I reiterate our conviction that we should develop European co-operation on a thorough-going basis. One can be far too facile on this point. I thought the Minister a bit free and easy when he was talking about our identity of interest
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with Europe this afternoon. The politics of the situation are clear. Europe regards the British cupboard quite bare. The Dutch are thriving. It is quite possible that the Germans will team up with the Americans just as likely as with the British, and, of course, the French are very cock-a-hoop at present. This will call for much more careful planning and much more serious thought than the Minister seemed to wish to give to it when he spoke this afternoon.
In the meantime, I suggest that the Government might also give serious thought to the idea of an aerospace development council as canvassed by the Cranfield Society. If we are to plan the transition of this industry from one side to another there might be a forum both for trade unionists and management to participate in the development of the industry in its next phase. We reject the idea of State participation. We think the whole basis of profit-sharing could well be improved. As regards financial control we think that a sharper differentiation of direct and indirect costs and a fresh look at the treatment of overheads, especially on the lines of dealing with these as a specific quantum and not just on a lazy percentage basis, could provide much of the answer. On this point, perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary may care to tc11 the House about the inter-Governmental inquiry recently completed into the control and costing of the Concord project. Is that report to be made available to hon. Members?
The other important point which emerged this afternoon was the possibility of amalgamation between two airframe companies. The Minister appeared to like the idea and to be prepared to pin his colours to the mast on this. From our point of view, this does not seem to offer, on the evidence so far submitted, any cost improvements in the next five to ten years which could not come from further extensive plant rationalisation by each of the two firms. It would appear that the optimum size of an aircraft factory at present is of the order of 10,000, at the most 15,000, employees. Why impose a merger on these two companies at present, when they are still struggling with the rationalisation placed on their backs three or four years ago? Why not let them see that through and then take

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stock of the situation from the point onwards rather than trying to produce an artificial and unhealthy merger at this point of time?
I want to finish on a note of compliment to the Parliamentary Secretary in terms of the export assistance which the Government are providing to the industry. Indeed, the Minister spoke about the new organisation which is being set up in the Ministry of Defence and said that they had not as yet found anybody to head it up. If he is looking for a likely candidate, I would think that the aircraft industry would be very pleased to see the Parliamentary Secretary transferred to that appointment.
The debate has been part and parcel of the continuing debates about the economic capabilities and the health and posture of this nation. We believe that the problems of the aircraft industry are solvable along the lines put forward in the debate today. We believe that the problems are worth solving [Interruption.] Indeed, we believe that the solving of them will contribute to the solving of even greater national technological problems. We believe that the answer must come through vigorous action, both on the part of the Government and on the part of the industry itself.
9.32 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. John Stone-house): The whole House will, I think, agree that this debate has been very constructive and thoughtful. This is a compliment to the action of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary who, as the responsible Minister at the time, asked Lord Plowden and his Committee to conduct the inquiry. The Committee's Report has given rise not only to a great deal of thoughtful comment within the House today, but to a great deal of interesting comment outside. I believe that this will help us to find the right formula to solve the problems of the aircraft industry in Britain. I do not believe that there has been a single word of criticism of the action taken by my right hon. Friend in establishing the Committee. We are all grateful for the work the Committee has done and for the advice we have had from it.
We should get our perspective right. We are not here conducting an inquest
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into the demise of this great industry, nor are we disparaging the great successes in the design of aircraft in Great Britain—successes like the Comet, the Viscount, the Hunter, the Canberra, and the present generation BAC111, the VC10, the HS125 and the Lightning. We can all rightly have a sense of pride in the fact that Britain can produce these very fine aircraft.
The industry does not lack the brains and the design skills required to create the most up-to-date aircraft. We can match any country in the world in this respect. Man for man our design teams are as good as any others that can be produced. In a sense the aircraft industry is a victim of its own successes. The pace of technological innovation in aircraft is faster than in any other industry. In some ways it is also the pace setter for other associated industries, like electronics. No sooner is one aircraft conceived than new sophistications on that design have been found and perhaps even completely new concepts developed. This creates the need for a new production line before the old one has proved economic. The changes are really quite dramatic. Indeed, we can well ask what would be the position of the ship building or motor car industries in Britain if they had had to cope every few years with the revolutionary changes of design and power units with which the aircraft industry has had to cope.
The United States has had a huge domestic market which has enabled it to obtain a huge production run for many of the new aircraft which it has developed, but, as the hon. Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge (Mr. Stainton) said, even the Americans have had monumental failures and great expensive flops, although they have been able to absorb these because they have had many more successes. This is so because they are able to sustain a production run of about 1,000 aircraft for each design type whereas the maximum we can run to for many of our types is about 100, one-tenth of theirs.
I ask the House to have some sympathy for our plane makers. It is facile to assume that they are fat and complacent, relying smugly on past laurels. They are as much pioneers on the frontier as plane makers in any other country. There is, of course, inefficiency and waste of resources, which can be put right, and we

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want to play our part in helping to put it right. But it has been as much the fault of Governments as of the firms themselves. Put simply, the industry has tried to produce too many separate designs of aircraft for too small a market. As a result, it has made a production profit on all too few of the aircraft developed. The industry must accept some responsibility for this. It has far too readily accepted the easy orders which it has obtained, without trying hard enough to mould and change specifications to enable it to meet the demands of overseas buyers. In the past, manufacturers have not tried aggressively enough to sell abroad.
The last Government are not immune from blame. They failed to rationalise and to co-ordinate military operational requirements with those of Commonwealth countries and our allies. They failed to guide the Airways Corporations towards buying aircraft which would have a real export potential. The Trident is an example of that. We are now providing launching aid for the Trident 2E. What a pity that this variant was not developed at the outset. When I was in Australia a few days ago, I understood that there would have been a very good chance indeed of the Australians buying the Trident 2E as it is now developed rather than the Boeing 727 if we had developed the Trident 2E a long time ago.
Mr. Marten: Is it not a fact that after the original design for the Trident about which the hon. Gentleman is speaking, Lord Douglas, then chairman of the nationalised B.E.A., came along and altered it to the present Trident?
Mr. Stonehouse: I do not absolve B.E.A. from some blame, but what I am saying is that the last Government allowed the Corporations to get away with this sort of thing. I am saying that that Government were not immune from blame. They must accept some of the blame. [Interruption.] I do not want to get bogged down in recrimination about the past. The House is only too well aware of the mess left behind for us to clear up.
At the beginning of his otherwise good speech, the hon. Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge started to make allegations about the cancellation of projects last year. Is there anyone in his senses
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who can deny that, if those projects had gone on, they would have cost the country many millions of pounds which, on any cost-effectiveness analysis—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about dollars?"]—pounds or dollars—would certainly have cost us a great deal of money, and the result would have been a burden on the economy which we could ill afford.
The industry cannot put itself in order with expensive military projects of this kind. They would have helped it to have remained soft and flabby, the sort of thing which most of the leaders of the aircraft industry want to escape from.
Mr. McMaster: What is the total bill in pounds sterling for the Hercules, the Phantom and the F111?
Mr. Stonehouse: There is no final decision on costs on these aircraft. But without any shadow of doubt the costs of the projects which were being developed in Britain would have been very much greater than the cost of obtaining those three aircraft from the United States.
The Plowden Report has passed to us the fact that the real answer to the problem of the British aircraft industry is to widen the market for British aircraft. If we can widen that market, we can sustain research and development costs. The problem can be divided into two aspects. The first is the immediate future—say, the next five years. The second is the long-term prospects, from 1970 onwards. In regard to this latter period, as my right hon. Friend has said, we wish to engage in collaborative projects with our allies. This also is necessary in order to share research and development costs and to ensure a wider market. It is as simple as that.
We have, however, got prospects in the next five years, perhaps even longer, of getting a wider export market for aircraft that are already developed and on which the research and development costs have already been incurred, and it is our policy to obtain the maximum possible sales for aircraft that have already been developed.
My right hon. Friend referred to the success in exports last year—50 per cent. up on the year before. The most heartening aspect of this is that much of that success was in new aircraft, whereas,

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in past years, a very small proportion of our total aircraft sales was in new aircraft. Last year, we sold many more new aircraft abroad, which must spread over the next 10 years an equal value in the supply of spares and components. This is a real investment in future exports. It is also very satisfactory to note the part that Rolls Royce played in last year's success story.
The fact that we have achieved these orders is sufficient guarantee to prospective customers overseas with regard to the continuance of supplies and after-sales support. The Government are very anxious to endorse the security which the aircraft firms are guaranteeing to overseas customers and to refute the scaremongering allegations, put out by some of our competitors, that if exporters buy from Britain they will not be able to rely on spares in years to come. We absolutely refute such allegations.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: But if we are to believe reports from Washington earlier this year we are to spend £600 million in taking up the options on American aircraft. Are we not, therefore, also obligated to buy spares and continuing maintenance spares for these same machines.
Mr. Stonehouse: That is true. If we buy the aircraft we shall also be committed to the spares. But analysis shows that from the point of view of cost effectiveness, we shall still save money—although payment will be in dollars—in buying these aircraft from the United States. But I cannot confirm or deny figures that are being quoted.
Let us look at some of the existing aircraft that we want to assist. There is the Super VCIO, which is a really superb aircraft, a wonderful plane, a plane that is proving itself on the highly competitive North Atlantic run. Although it has a higher power to weight ratio than many of its competitors, which puts up its direct operating cost—a disadvantage to many airlines—nevertheless it is proving to be an attractive aircraft, with greater passenger appeal. We believe that there are still prospects for sales of this aircraft and we want to give every help to B.A.C. to realise those prospects.
The BAC111 is another example of a plane which has sold very well and for
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which the prospects are extremely good. We are glad that the actual orders for this aircraft now reach 91 and that the options are 20 giving a round figure of 111 as the number of aircraft being sold. This aircraft could well have a success story like that of the Viscount. We certainly hope that it will.
Last night I returned from a visit to New Zealand where we are very hopeful that the New Zealand internal airlines will decide to buy the BAC111. The Americans have made tremendous attempts to win this market which has been traditionally loyal to British aircraft. I am glad that our present sales tour there with the demonstration of the BAC111 is having such an impact. I was very proud a few days ago at the Auckland air show to see BAC111 demonstrated and to see the impact which it made on the vast crowds and the Cabinet Ministers who will eventually make the decisions about this aircraft.
I should like to make it absolutely clear that we do not want the New Zealanders or any other customers to take aircraft which are not absolutely suited to their needs. We do not want to twist their arm to make them buy things which do not correspond to their requirements, but we are satisfied from independent reports which we have seen that for New Zealand the BAC111 is as good as, if not superior to, any other competitive aircraft, and we hope that the New Zealanders will see their way clear to buying it.
Mr. R. Carr: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the current sales of aircraft of the British Aircraft Corporation, in view of his welcome eulogies about the attractions and competitiveness of the Super VCIO, can he say whether B.O.A.C. will take up its remaining order?
Mr. Stonehouse: It is too soon for me to make any announcement about that. I was going on to the HS125 and the HS748. More than 100 of each of these aircraft have been sold, many of the 125s in the United States. Then we have the Handley Page Jet Stream, a new concept of the small Handley Page organisation. We wish that company success in promoting this new aircraft. Finally, with civil aircraft there is the BN2 Islander, a very small aircraft which is costing a small amount of money to develop. I am glad that the

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present Government are providing some money to assist this energetic little firm in the Isle of Wight to develop an aircraft which we hope will have a great export potential.
With military aircraft, the Lightning success story in Saudi Arabia proves that there are prospects for this plane in the Middle East, and I hope that we will realise more of them.
Among the measures which we are now adopting in order to assist the current export drive are regular meetings with Sales Directors of the aircraft firms so that we can exchange ideas and pool information. We also keep in touch with individual firms which can come to see us at any time with suggestions for the help or assistance which they may require. We are in constant touch with the Society of British Aerospace Companies whose suggestions we are glad to have. We make intensive use—and some of them are only too willing to give their best assistance—of the support of our ambassadors and High Commissioners and military and service attachés. I cannot speak too highly of the efforts which many of our representatives abroad are now making on behalf of British aircraft exports. We have commissioned market surveys and, where they are required, we will obtain more in future. As my right hon. Friend said in his speech this afternoon, credit terms have been improved; that would very much help our exporters. As the Secretary of State for Defence announced last Tuesday we have the new appointment of the Head of Defence Sales, and this will help military sales very considerably. I can say without any risk of contradiction that no administration has given more help to aircraft exporters at any time in the past. We hope that we can even improve on what we are now doing.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) asked what were the projected export figures for 1966, 1967 and 1968. It is too early to give actual sterling estimates, but we have every confidence that this year we will achieve more than last year, and that this year will include even more new aircraft exports than last year. There will be much more investment in the future than there was last year.
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I agree with what he said as far as European collaborative projects are concerned. We must aim to meet not only the European market, but must go all-out to meet world needs as well. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), who I thought gave us one of his most forceful and constructive speeches, made one or two points which were interesting reflections upon his right hon. Friends who held ministerial responsibility in past years. The fact was that so many suggestions were criticisms of past practices, of neglect on the part of his right hon. Friend. He also said that he would not associate himself with any coercion to effect mergers of aircraft firms. This hardly corresponds with the action taken by the last Administration.
I want to deal with one or two key points in his speech. He said that the Government, as a customer, have no particular need to involve themselves as a shareholder in the firms supplying them with equipment. This was also dealt with by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock). They have both neglected one of the essential aspects, which is that the industry is not now able, and will be unable in the future, to finance all its research and development. It is looking to the Government not only as a customer for its products but to finance its operations.
This is amply described in the Plowden Committee Report and in particular in paragraph 326 on page 58 which says:
"One of the major airframe groups has already indicated that if it is to continue to produce civil aircraft, it will require a larger contribution from the Government than in the past towards the launching costs of any new project. The other airframe group has not gone so far as this, but the Committee doubt whether even this group would in practice find the money for a 50 per cent. contribution towards any totally new large aircraft project."
The question which the House has to ask itself is if the Government and the taxpayer are going to be called upon to provide these very large sums of money, some of which are described in the Appendix at the back of the Report, on page 126, should not the Government, on behalf of the community, expect to have some share in the industry?

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It is not a question of simply being a customer. The question is if the Government are putting up so much of the money, are they not entitled to have some share in the industry?
Mr. Maurice Edelman: Perhaps my hon. Friend can give me a little guidance? The Labour Party has gone on record at the Blackpool conference as being in opposition to the principle of shares in industry. Will he say whether the Government propose to reverse that policy?
Mr. Stonehouse: We are concerned to deal with the practical problems as they exist in relation to particular industries. We are not being doctrinaire about this. Here we have a problem about the aircraft industry, which is not only a supplier to the Government but which looks to the Government for a lot of money. We say that there is a case, in all justice for the Government to have a share. What we want—
Mr. Stainton Mr. Stainton rose—
Mr. Stonehouse: No. I want to reply to the question of the hon. Member for Orpington. We are not trying to force this on the industry. We want to achieve this result by negotiation, and my right hon. Friend is now involved in talks with the industry which we hope will result in a satisfactory conclusion.
Mr. Atkinson: Would not my hon. Friend agree that, on the basis of the same case, there is also a case for public ownership of the industry?
Mr. Stonehouse: If we have shares in the industry, as suggested by the Plowden Committee, this is a measure of public participation. As my right hon. Friend said, the options range from complete ownership to no participation at all. We have not yet made up our minds about what is the right solution.
The hon. Member for Esher (Sir W. Robson Brown) asked how it was that Holland and Sweden can stand on their own in aircraft development. He is not entirely correct. The Dutch value inter-European co-operation. The Dutch Fokker Friendship aircraft, which has been a tremendous success story—we see it flying all over the world—is more than 60 per cent. British. Rolls-Royce supply the Dart engines and many other British
1014
components go into it as well. Sweden does not have an aircraft industry which exports in any quantity. It is producing hardly any civil aircraft. The military aircraft produced are for Sweden's own Air Force and it relies on imported designs for power plants for these aircraft.
We agree with the hon. Gentleman on the need for market surveys for civil projects. That is what we are doing. We agree on the need for improved efficiency in the industry, and my right hon. Friend proposes to have a joint inquiry with the S.B.A.C. about that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) asked about the size of the employment force in the industry and the effect of cancellations. In January, 1965, before the cancellations, the figure was 269,000. In November, 1965, it had fallen to 259,000 —a drop of about 10,000. But, within that figure, there has been redeployment in the industry. I think that we can claim that as a result of the cancellation of these expensive military projects more men are now involved on the development of exports, which are making a very substantial contribution to our economy. My hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South (Mr. Peter Mahon) referred to the fact that there are vacancies in Preston because the men who originally would have worked there on TSR2 have been transferred to working on an export order for the Lightning, which will be of real value to the economy.
Mr. McMaster Mr. McMaster rose—
Mr. Stonehouse: I cannot give way; I have not time.
Finally, I want to refer to an interesting article written by the right hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery).
Mr. James A. Kilfedder Mr. James A. Kilfedder (Belfast, West) rose—
Captain Orr Captain Orr rose—
Mr. McMaster Mr. McMaster rose—
Hon. Members: Give way.
Mr. McMaster: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will mention Short Bros. and Harland before we decide whether to divide for lack of a satisfactory answer.
Mr. Stonehouse: The right hon. Member for Preston, North wrote in the Daily Telegraph this morning that American aircraft are 10 or 20 per cent. cheaper. If he analyses the figures he will find that the gap between the cost of American aircraft and the cost of producing aircraft in Britain is much wider. Therefore, the argument which he deployed in his piece this morning cannot really be sustained.
I hope that the House will continue to give general support to the actions of the Government in working towards a viable and efficient industry.
10.59 p.m.
Captain Orr: I am astonished that the Minister should have—
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Short)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Short) rose in his place, and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
Question put accordingly and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Aircraft Industry, 1964–65 (Command Paper No. 2853)

SEA FISHERIES (SALMON AND MIGRATORY TROUT)
10.0 p.m.
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. George Willis): I beg to move,
That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Drift-net Fishing) (Extension) Order 1965, dated 26th November, 1965, a copy of which was laid before this House on 2nd December, be approved.
The purpose of the Order is to extend the period of operation of the existing prohibition on drift-net fishing for salmon off the coast of Scotland for a further year after the present Order expires on 15th February. We propose this extension for much the same reason as we extended the original Order a year ago.
When the prohibition on drift-net fishing was first introduced, in 1962, the Government of the day made it clear that they took this step as a precautionary measure. They admitted that they did not know what the effect of drift-net fishing might be and before the ban was actually imposed they appointed the Hunter Committee with a remit to review the whole law relating to salmon and trout fisheries, but to give priority to the question of drift-net fishing.
The Committee produced an interim Report in the summer of 1963 in which it made clear its view that unregulated drift-net fishing might so deplete the stocks of salmon that the result would be no secure future either for the traditional salmon netsman, for anglers or for those who might engage in drift-net fishing for salmon. The Committee further explained that it had examined the practicability of some form of regulation to overcome the difficulties of uncontrolled fishing. This was suggested by many of the organisations which made representations at that time.
The Committee considered various possibilities such as weekly and annual close times, licensing of nets or boats, catch quotas and various other methods of trying to regulate the fisheries. It came eventually to the conclusion, however, that none of those methods, either alone or in combination, could be an efficient means of control. In short, the Committee reported that it had not found any system of control which it thought would
1018
be workable under the existing law. That was the position in February last year.
Since then, the Hunter Committee has submitted its final Report. This was published on 5th August last year. As hon. Members know, the Report endorses the conclusion reached by the Committee in its interim Report and makes numerous recommendations on other aspects of salmon and trout fisheries, some of which involve radical changes in the present regime.
My right hon. Friend is anxious that all bodies or individuals who may be affected by the Committee's recommendations should have adequate opportunity to comment on its proposals and to study their views before coming to conclusions on the Report. He therefore invited those who are known to be interested to submit their views, if possible, by mid-November. As is not unusual in these matters, the organisations had not all submitted them by that date, and we extended the date to this month. Some of them have not yet been able to furnish their fully considered views, but most of them have done so and we expect to receive most of the remaining submissions within the next few weeks.
Hon. Members who have read the Report will understand that full and careful examination of the complex issues which are involved in the recommendations of the Committee is bound to take time. We think that it would be most unprofitable to try to reach hasty and ill-considered decisions on these issues. I know that those associations representing the sea fishermen who were engaged in drift-netting three or four summers ago are disappointed that the Hunter Committee has reiterated the views that it expressed in its interim Report. They have already made it clear to my right hon. Friend and have suggested that the recommendations on drift-net fishing should not be accepted.
We appreciate their feelings in the matter, but that is only one of a number of recommendations and it is closely bound up with the Committee's other proposals, in particular, the recommendation that all fishing for salmon in the sea should be brought to an end and not merely fishing by drift-net. What we are doing now is considering the drift-net issue as part of the wider question in the

1019
light of the Committee's Report and of all the representations made about it.
I hope, therefore, that hon. Members will agree that it would be wrong to come to any final conclusion on the drift-netting issue until full consideration has been given to all the recommendations and all the comments from the interested organisations have been received. That clearly cannot be done before the present Order lapses on 15th February, and, therefore, we have laid the new Order to maintain the status quo for a further year until 15th February, 1967, to provide time for a comprehensive study of all the implications of the Hunter Committee's recommendations.
I hope that the House will support my right hon. Friend in the Measure.
Mr. A. Woodburn: Before my hon. Friend sits down, could he give any information as to whether the fears of the fishermen about foreign trawlers coming and doing drift-netting just outside the range have been fulfilled, or whether those fears were an illusion?
Mr. Willis: When those fears were first expressed at the time that the Hunter Committee was set up the fishing limit was three miles. That has now been extended to 12, and it is doubtful whether one could catch salmon outside the 12-mile limit.
10.7 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Wolrige-Gordon: In his customary vivid style, the Minister has made a speech very similar to the one that he made last year. At least, he must have got the story right by now. However, there is an important difference between this year and last year, and it is that the Hunter Committee has produced its Report.
The Minister's argument last year was to continue the prohibition of drift-net fishing for salmon for a time until he had seen and considered the Hunter Committee's Report. He said, moreover, that by making the Order he was not committing himself to retaining the prohibition any longer than he thought necessary. I was waiting with interest to hear his argument for extending the prohibition for yet another year, especi-
1020
ally having heard him give his pledge last year to examine the problem urgently.
The urgency seems now to have died and, whatever his case, once again we are faced with an extension of the limit for yet another year, and the Minister has said nothing which meets all the arguments against such action. It is still unjust, and regulation of the fishing is still as possible as it is today in England and as it always has been in Scotland.
The Minister said that the Hunter Committee, in its second Report, added nothing new to its first Report. Of course, it was not able to do so, because any evidence which it could have collected had been stopped at the source when drift-netting was stopped at the source, so there was nothing new that it could have said.
In its first Report it explained how, on the evidence submitted, it could not conclusively be demonstrated that Scottish salmon stocks had so far been harmed by drift-net fishermen, and paragraph 71 of its full Report confirmed this. This is the first injustice which has been done, and which will persist, namely, taking action of this kind against drift-net fishermen without first establishing the facts of the case against them.
There is, however, another injustice to which these men have been subjected. As I understood it, the Hunter Committee was expected to produce a pearl, but it produced an elephant, and naturally we want to know what the Government propose to do about the sweeping re-organisations which have been suggested. The Hunter Committee said that all salmon fishing in the sea, including coastal netting, should be discontinued in the interests of good fishing management, and that this would entail the running down of all coastal netting and its replacement by new methods of fishing.
The rub, from the fishermen's point of view, was that the ban on drift netting was sudden, complete, and absolute. For fishermen who had bought the gear they needed, 15th September, 1962, was a costly day, because from that moment their investment became obsolete. By comparison, the parties affected by the Committee's second Report not only had the benefit of consultation, but were able to carry on their trade, and they will be

1021
able to make more representations. Moreover, does anyone think that changes as sweeping as those which have been suggested should be introduced without substantial compensation for those affected?
Mr. William Baxter (West Stirling-shire): On a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker, are we discussing the Hunter Committee's Report, or are we discussing an extension of this Order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Samuel Storey): We are discussing the extension of the Order, but in so far as the Hunter Committee's Report is relevant to the question at issue, it is in order to discuss it.
Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: The Minister spoke of the extreme care which was being taken by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that all the parties affected could make representations to him. I think that he even said that he was putting the time limit back to this month to give them a chance to do so. That was not done in respect of the drift-netters, and now this ban is to be extended for another year, but still there is no question of paying them compensation. Why not? I hope that the Government will tell us how they propose to deal with this, and to rectify the sense of injustice felt by those concerned with this issue.
10.13 p.m.
Mr. Hector Hughes: I am sure that the House was greatly amused at the mixed metaphor used by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon). Hunters have hunted many things, and produced many things, but his mixed metaphor about what the Hunter Committee produced is rather irrelevant to the issue which we are considering.
I object to the extension of this Order because there has been too great a delay in the implementation of the Hunter Report. Notwithstanding the gibe of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East, this is a valuable Report and it should be implemented. But we are not discussing the implementation of that Report. We are considering the extension of the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Drift-net Fishing) (Extension) Order, 1965. We have heard from the Minister that this little Order, with its
1022
elaborate Title, has been extended from year to year.
I have had communications from my constituents indicating that they regard this extension as prejudicial to their interests. Some of them fish for pleasure, and others are poor fishermen who fish for profit. They are prejudiced by the repeated extensions of the Order. I have risen merely to say that on their behalf I object to its extension.
10.15 p.m.
M. George Y. Mackie: If the Minister is asking for an extension of the Order so that he can consider the Hunter Report fully, he is very wise. Some recommendations of the Hunter Report, especially those concerning the preservation of brown trout and the control of the fishing thereof, are very controversial. They are dynamite. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) has said that he wants to see brown trout fishing controlled by the State for the benefit of owners of property.
Mr. Archie Manuel: That is not the reason why I believe that the suggestion contained in the Hunter Report should be explored with the idea of debating its recommendations. I do so so that brown trout fishing may become available to the masses throughout Scotland—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We cannot discuss brown trout fishing on this Order.
Mr. Mackie: I had no intention of raising the subject, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I hope that the Secretary of State will consider the question of the single avenue for the catching of salmon running up a river. Everybody knows that it is possible to make a gate and run fish through it, and to say, "One to breed, one for the angler, and one for the pot." That is delightful in theory, but in many estuaries there is no spate, and the fish lie off the estuary until they can run up the river later. If they are unable to be caught when they are running we shall have a glut at one time, and if the fish lie in the estuary for too long they can go bad and come to great harm.
The Secretary of State must consider other forms of fishing. One of the features so objectionable to people who have

1023
fishing interests in their constituency is the complete lack of compensation to fishermen who have bought drift nets for this type of fishing. It was legal one day, and was suddenly stopped the next. The prohibition has been continued year after year, and it is high time that the Secretary of State came to a final decision on the matter.
If he is going on year after year, he might at least consider compensating those people who were fishing quite legally up to the time when the original order was made. I am prepared to support an extension of the Order, however, if it means a consideration of the recommendations contained in the Hunter Report.
10.19 p.m.
Mr. John M. Temple: It might need a little explanation to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to hon. Members, why an English Member should intervene in what seems to be a Scottish affair.
I spoke at considerable length, and listened to the Minister speaking, on the principal legislation, namely, the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1962, when the Minister—then in opposition—took a view contrary to that which he has taken tonight. I also spoke on the principal order introduced in 1962. It seems to me that the Minister has changed sides. On the last occasion, when he introduced the Order to perpetuate this prohibition for one year, he admitted that he had strong objections to the original Order.
The Minister of State seems to have forgotten about those strong exceptions tonight. Speaking with a keen interest in salmon fishing and as a vice-president of the Salmon and Trout Association, I must say that the action taken by the Conservative Government in 1962 has been entirely vindicated by the Report of the Hunter Committee. There is no doubt that the Order is entirely sensible. Without an Order of this nature, the stocks of salmon in Scottish rivers would have been decimated by now.
In answer to the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Mackie), who spoke about compensation for people who had invested in drift-netting equipment, I would say that if drift netting had been permitted to con-
1024
tinue up to now, and then the Report had been published and implemented, those people would have complained still more than they are now because they would have bought more and more expensive equipment which would then nave been of no use to them. The action of the Conservative Government, vindicated as it has now been by the Report, was entirely wise at the time it was taken. I am very glad that the Minister of State has taken this so extraordinarily well and commended the Order tonight.
I should like to ask him two questions, the first with regard to the length of extension of the Order. Under th2, principal legislation, this Order could have been extended for longer than one year—two years, three years, in fact an indefinite period. I hope that, by extending the Order for one year, he is hoping to implement the recommendations of the Hunter Committee within one year. It seems unnecessary, if that is not the Minister of State's intention, to bring in the Order for one year. One can only deduce that, as it is being introduced for one year, we can expect permanent legislation within that year.
On behalf of the fishing interests which I represent, I may say that we should be very glad to see the Committee's recommendations implemented relatively quickly, as they are comprehensive, farreaching—as the Minister said—and I think that they would be for the benefit of the fishery interests in Scotland.
One of the important things about the fishing industry in Scotland, which the Order seeks to protect, is the value to the tourist industry. The tourist industry in Scotland flourishes in the summer, but in the winter or in the early months of the year, Scottish hotels—certainly in the remoter parts—are very dependent on the fishermen who stay there. The Order, which is to protect the stocks of fish throughout Scotland, will do much to encourage the tourist industry, if it protects those stocks of fish. Then, indeed, the fishermen will be encouraged to go to those hotels—
Mr. Manuel: Anglers, not fishermen.
Mr. Temple: The anglers, rather, will be encouraged to go to those hotels, which give such a tremendous amount of employment in the difficult times in the early months of the year in the Highlands.

1025
I have asked those two questions of the Minister of State, but I should like to add one other about the policing of the Order. I realise that, in the last year or so, the fishery base-lines have been extended for foreign fishermen. To what extent are the fishery protection squadrons called upon to police the waters around the Scottish coast so as to see that the Order is not contravened? I imagine that protection squadrons are up to this job, but the difficulties of fishery protection is a matter on which I spoke when we dealt with the principal legislation. I hope that the Minister of State will be able to say how much of the time of the fishery protection squadrons is taken up in checking the illegal fishing which might take place.
I give a very definite welcome to the Order. My only reservation is that I wished it had been extended for two years rather than one.
Mr. Russell Johnston: I thought that the hon. Gentleman advanced a most extraordinary argument in saying that the drift-net fishers should virtually be grateful that legislation was introduced to abolish drift netting because this meant that their outflow of expenditure was reduced and that they should be pleased that they bought one net instead of two. Should the hon. Gentleman not support his hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) in asking the Minister to reconsider the question of compensation?
Mr. Temple: That question could rightly be addressed to the Government and not to me.
10.26 p.m.
Sir John Gilmour: Since the original Order was laid in 1962 much more information has come to hand about what is going on in the salmon fisheries off Greenland. It is well set out on page 69 of the Hunter Report and it is a pity that the Minister of State did not mention it, since it is something which has brought a completely new influence to our ideas of the conservation of salmon stocks. One can see in the Report how something not far short of half a million salmon have been caught off Greenland, an amount about equal to the entire catch of salmon and grilse in Scottish waters in net or other means.
1026
Until such time as we overcome, and, one hopes, by international agreement regulate, this fishing off Greenland, it is obvious that one cannot possibly restart drift netting for salmon because this would cause too great a risk of over-fishing the salmon. For this reason, although we are seeking here only to extend the Order for one year, this reinforces the need to consider now the giving of compensation to those who hold nets or who bought them in good faith and who, at the stroke of the pen, were cut off from their fishing.
The Hunter Report, if implemented—which, in many respects, I doubt will take place—is at least designed to bring forward information about what is going to happen. In this case the law suddenly said, "No more fishing". I would be grateful if the Minister would receive particulars from hon. Members who, like myself, have details from fishermen who bought nets in good faith and who now are, I believe, entitled to some compensation for an act which has taken that fishing away.
Mr. W. Baxter: Why did not the previous Government compensate these people?
Sir J. Gilmour: The hon. Gentleman has completely missed the point of my argument. Until the final Report of the Hunter Committee came out it was in doubt as to whether drift netting would or would not be permitted again.
Mr. Baxter: Surely we are not considering the Hunter Report but an extension of an Order which the hon. Gentleman's Government introduced in 1962. Why were not the fishermen about whom he is speaking compensated at that time?
Sir J. Gilmour: It is obvious that' the hon. Gentleman has not read the Hunter Report. If he reads it he will find that evidence to confirm the action taken in banning drift netting is supplied. One must, therefore, consider the Hunter Report in making up one's mind on these issues. Only now can we arrive at the position of saying that obviously drift netting will not be reintroduced in the near future and that, therefore, a case for giving compensation to these fishermen for their nets arises.

1027
Although I support the continuation of the Order, I hope that this matter will be looked at most seriously.
10.29 p.m.
Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: I hope that I shall not follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) in mixing my fish on this occasion.
I am prepared to accept the Government's proposal for an extension for one year to ensure that the consideration of the second Report of the Hunter Committee is not, in the Minister's words, too hasty and ill-considered, I am, nevertheless, bound to remind the Government that when we had a similar debate last year—and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) said, we seem to have heard some of these speeches before—the Minister of State said that it was hoped that the extension on that occasion would give the Government time to consider the recommendations in the final Hunter Report and then decide what action should be taken. That was the extension that has just been completed. The Government are now asking for another extension.
I do not want to make a point of this, because I agree that consideration of the second Report should not be rushed, but I suggest that publication of the Report will, if anything, increase the feeling of resentment amongst those who were practising drift netting, because it suggests that all netting in the sea for salmon should be forbidden. Until the Government come to a decision on the Report, those who were practising drift netting will continue to feel that they are being discriminated against when those others are able to continue to practise netting for salmon in the sea.
I hope that the Government, without rushing its consideration, will not try to shirk the issues involved. I realise that there are a good many controversial matters in the second Report, and I have an ugly suspicion that the Government will sit on it. It will just not be good enough for them to do that and then come back in a year's time with a request for another extension. The position has to be cleared up and cleaned up in the relatively near future.
1028
As on this occasion it has been accepted that we can refer to the Hunter Report, I would refer to paragraph 70, where it is argued that any system of licensing of drift netting in addition to existing methods of fishing for salmon would lead to a serious danger of over-fishing. The argument is not about whether there should be licensing of drift netting over and above existing methods, but whether it could be incorporated into the existing methods without leading to any increase in the total catch. I do not feel that the second Report has answered that point.
When we discussed this subject last year, the Minister of State said that these were the sort of points that the Hunter Committee would no doubt be commenting on, but I do not think that the second Report does so—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman is getting far from the Order we are discussing.
Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: I shall not pursue the point further, in that case. I think that I have made my point.
I ask the Government to give serious consideration to the second Report as expeditiously as they can, so as to eliminate the feeling of injustice that still exists amongst those who were previously practising this form of drift netting for salmon.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: I want to reinforce the argument on compensation advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour). His argument is quite plain. The proper time to decide on compensation is when the ban becomes permanent, if that proves to be the case. As long as the ban is of a temporary nature, continued from year to year, and there is still the possibility, albeit remote, of drift-netting continuing in the future, that is not the correct time to take a decision on compensation.
For that reason, we would not expect the Minister of State to give a full and complete answer on the subject now, but he might indicate whether compensation will be reviewed when the final decision on the Hunter Report is made, and final proposals for drift netting put forward. My second point is in relation to the

1029
practice of having an Order such as this from year to year. The Minister of State owes it to us to let us know when the position will be finalised, because working on a temporary basis leads to a great deal of concern among fishing interests to know what the final regulations under which they will have to operate will be. The fact that he has merely extended it for one year—
Mr. W. Baxter: I want to follow the question about compensation. The hon. Member appears to agree with his hon. Friends 'hat compensation should be paid. I am not arguing for or against that, but I want to know the attitude of the former Government when they introduced this Measure. Were they in favour of paying compensation? If so, why did they not write that into the Sea Fish Industry Bill? If hon. Members opposite should ever have the opportunity, do I understand them to be giving a promise that they will compensate for the omission from the original Order?
Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I had already moved further on, but I had said that the correct time to consider compensation is when the ban or otherwise is made permanent. At present, it is on a year-to-year basis. No definite decision has been taken on whether the ban on drift netting is to be permanent. It would obviously be foolish to consider the question of compensation unless and until the ban were on a permanent basis.
Mr. Baxter Mr. Baxter rose—
Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I have dealt fully with that point and I should like to get on to my other argument.
I had moved to the second point on the question of when the final decision will be taken in relation to the salmon industry as covered by the Hunter Committee Report. There was concern among all sections of the industry, not only drift netters, but among the coast and river netters and anglers as well. This turns on the way in which the Government view representations made in the Report. I have read the Report and discussed it with all sections of the salmon industry and I appreciate the many problems which are posed. I ask the Government to take a very considered rather than a hurried view before reaching any final decision.
1030
One point which is particularly pertinent and which will govern the timetable the Government follow in reaching a final decision is that the Report turns on the physical practicability of the use of the river trap. As the Minister of State knows, since the publication of the Report much doubt has been cast on the use of this trap. Some of the evidence which the Committee produced on the use of traps in Canada and Eire has been questioned. That affects the Government's time table for a decision. Will the Minister of State tell us what steps the Government are taking to find out about the working and cost of these traps and how efficient they are in other countries and an extension of the rather less deep work done by the Hunter Committee? That would affect the question whether the ban will be continued.
My final point is an enlargement of one made by the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) at the end of the Minister's opening remarks. It is in relation to the catching of salmon out of the sea by foreign boats. Among those who were engaged in drift netting there was a certain amount of concern that they were being denied something which is being done by foreign boats off the north coast of Scotland.
The Minister of State dismissed this rather cursorily and apparently did not think there was much concern about it. He owes it to the House to enlarge on that and let us know whether there is any definite evidence that this fishing by foreign vessels is or is not taking place. Among the fishing communities on the East Coast—I have met it and so have some of my hon. Friends—there is a feeling that they are being denied something which is still open to foreign vessels.
I hope that the Minister will give us concrete evidence to support the rather cursory way in which he dismissed the intervention in his first speech.
10.40 p.m.
Mr. Archie Manuel: I congratulate the Government on bringing forward an extension of the Order. Anyone who has taken an interest in all sorts of fishing and angling throughout Scotland and the immense possibilities which still exist recognises that there is a connection between the Hunter Report and the extension now proposed.

1031
The contributions of hon. Members opposite have been, generally, along the line that we should hasten into legislation based on the Hunter Report, but I, as one who has a great interest in these questions, urge that we be very cautious and do not rush in too quickly. There are literally hundreds of strong organisations throughout Scotland—in my own county we have the Ayrshire Angling Association and there is the Scottish Angling Association, too—and the Secretary of State is appealing to all these bodies to make representations on the basis of the recommendations in the Hunter Report. Great interest is being taken, and many angling clubs are fearful that legislation will be brought in too soon. The demand for the Report exceeded supply, and there had to be a reprint because of the intense interest.
Undoubtedly, drift-net salmon fishing and other kinds of salmon fishing must be brought into consideration. I am rather sceptical about the sincerity—perhaps that is putting it too strongly—of hon. Members opposite who plead for compensation now for drift netters. When the original Order was made in 1962, their own Government was in office, and, if their political beliefs were as strong then as they are today, that Government would have given some sort of promise that compensation should be paid for an accumulating loss. But they did not. Therefore, I do not take the point as strongly as hon. Members opposite do.
Liberal Members are in on this too, saying that there should be compensation and urging adoption of the Hunter Report. I wish that they would return to the belief of their forebears in the Liberal Party that the land should belong to the people, despite their vote yesterday. In Parliamentary legislation, of course, land includes water. [Interruption.] Lloyd George included water when he was talking about land. I thought that that would silence them. They do not seem to believe in the great things which their party used to do.
I commend the extension of the Order, but I urge my hon. Friend and the Secretary of State not to be over-hasty in bringing in legislation after the Hunter Report. I am all in favour of most of its main recommendations, but I want to ensure that the great questions of the rate
1032
of fishing, access to water and so on are covered fully and we are not fobbed off with something which is an imitation of the Hunter Report and not the real thing.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Stodart: The Minister of State has asked for a further extension of the prohibition on drift-net fishing. He has had a fairly thin time of it, although I imagine that he will survive. I was particularly distressed for him when he was attacked with, I thought, considerable brutality from behind by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) who, having struck the blow, has now disappeared altogether.
As some of my hon. Friends have said, a similar request was made a year ago and the grounds then were that the Hunter Report had not been published. In moving that Order, the hon. Gentleman admitted that he and his colleagues did not like the situation, but he felt that it was wise to continue along this path until the Hunter Report came out. We on this side of the House agreed with that and I am certain that the step which the hon. Gentleman took then was the right step.
On publication, the Hunter Report has shown how wise the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Lord Muirshiel as he now is, was to set up the Hunter Committee, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman now agrees with his right hon. Friend the present Minister of Agriculture who, on Second Reading of the 1962 Act, accepted the need for action if there was evidence of danger of damage, although both the hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends did not altogether share that view.
However, the Government are now considering the Hunter Report and what action they should take on it and consistency clearly demands that reasonable time should be given to them to give the matter due consideration. Last year, the hon. Gentleman said that once the Report came out, the examination would be full and urgent. Those were his words. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon), my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) and the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Y. Mackie) all urged that as little time as possible should

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be wasted. There is clearly a difference of opinion on this, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) rather sides with the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) in saying that we should not hurry unduly on this matter.
Personally, I come down on the side of doing this with as much speed as possible. I hope that the examination will be conducted urgently and, if I may give the hon. Gentleman a yardstick, that it will not take as long as it has taken to review the Hospital Plan, or to produce a minimum price scheme for the White Fish Authority. I hope that we shall have greater urgency than that.
However, as I have said, the hon. Gentleman has borne his burden fairly nobly tonight. He has said that the views to be submitted were to have been submitted in mid-November, but have been a little delayed and, I think, that the last of them are now coming in. I hope that he will assure the House that this is the last time that he will require to ask for an extension of this kind. It is a most unsatisfactory procedure going on year by year. I hope that he will be able to give us an assurance that before he come to us again legislation will be introduced as a result of his deliberations upon the Hunter Report.
Mr. W. Baxter: Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that if the Conservatives should ever return to power they will pay compensation for any loss suffered by the drift-net fishermen?
10.50 p.m.
Mr. Willis: Perhaps I might put the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) wise concerning a point he raised. The Hunter Committee was set up as a result of the pressure from this side of the House, then the Opposition. It demanded, before the prohibition was introduced, that there should be a committee set up to inquire into the effects of drift-net fishing.
The Committee was set up because of the pressure exerted over quite a period of time. We finally got the promise of a committee, but the prohibition was brought into force before we had the interim Report of the Hunter Committee. I am reminded that it was announced
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before the Committee was appointed—I was being rather more generous. The hon. Gentleman also asked that the examination should be full and urgent. This is one promise I can make again this year. It will be full and urgent. I do not think that we have wasted a great deal of time.
We received the report in August and we sent out asking for the views of a large number of organisations. They were asked to send them in by November, but some were not able to get them in by this time, for quite good reasons. We have very little control over that, but we are expecting to have the views of practically all of the organisations by about the middle of February. We will give this matter urgent attention. We appreciate that the industry would like to know what is the Government's intention. The exact time when it might be possible to introduce legislation, however, is rather more difficult to forecast, as the hon. Gentleman knows. But at least the industry should be given a clear indication of the Government's intentions on the Hunter Committee's Report, and we shall see that it gets it. That will enable the industry to plan ahead.
Mr. Temple: Does the Minister mean that there will be a White Paper published on this subject? If so, can he give an indication when that White Paper will be published?
Mr. Willis: I am not quite certain about the manner in which we shall indicate this, but it is our intention to make our objectives concerning the industry clear. The hon. Gentleman knows the procedure of this House—I was going to say as well as I do, I am not quite so certain about that—but he certainly knows them fairly well. He knows that there are many ways in which statements can be made, either in answer to a Question or by means of a statement by a minister, or by some other method, without necessarily publishing a White Paper. My concern is not so much how it is to be done, but that the industry should know the Government's intentions on the recommendations of the Hunter Committee Report.
These are important recommendations. The changes which are suggested are fairly big and radical changes in the industry and, clearly, the industry would

1035
want to know as early as possible what the Government intend to do about them. Certainly, we shall give the industry that information as early as possible.
A number of hon. Members have commented upon the Hunter Report. It is neither my job nor my intention tonight to enter into discussion of the recommendations made by that Report. All I will say is that what has been said about some of the recommendations has been noted, and certainly we will bear in mind the points made by various hon. Members when we consider the Report—urgently.
The hon. Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) also asked about fishery protection and what difficulties we had had about this. The fishery protection fleet operated by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland is available to enforce the prohibition in the course of its patrols of Scottish coastal waters. Only one instance of illegal drift-net fishing has been reported since the ban has been in operation and little demand has been made upon the time of the fishery protection squadron for enforcing the Order.
The fishermen have generally accepted the ban and they are to be commended for the way in which they accepted it because, as we know, feelings ran high. One of my cheerier memories was when, in Committee on, I think, the Sea Fish Industry Bill, the former hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns entertained us for a considerable time with vivid descriptions of the battles that were taking place off the coast of his constituency, indicating the deep feelings which were aroused on all sides and in all quarters. As I have said, however, the position is most satisfactory.
Mr. Temple: In case it has slipped the hon. Gentleman's memory, I asked why the Order had not been brought in for longer than a year, as would have been permissible.
Mr. Willis: One or two hon. Members have asked why the Order has been introduced for only one year. This is a point about which one can take various views. [Laughter.] I am trying to suggest that there are arguments on both sides. Some hon. Members opposite have suggested that we should have introduced an Order which would carry us on until it was
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possible to pass legislation in this matter. The other view is that when one is enforcing a prohibition of this kind, it is not a bad thing to enable the House to debate it every year. There are merits in both methods.
We, in my view correctly, decided that it was right that the House should have the opportunity to debate the matter again if legislation has not been introduced by next February to deal with it. This is treating the House fairly. That was why we took this course. I seem to have afforded a good deal of amusement, but all I did was to admit that there were arguments on the other side. That was a reasonable thing to do. I am amazed that Liberals, in particular, should find it astonishing to admit that there are sometimes arguments on the other side. I think that I have now answered the hon. Member for Chester.
A number of hon. Members have raised the question of compensation. This was referred to in the interim report of the Hunter Committee, which concluded that
"The case for compensation does not seem strong."
They point out that the drift-net fishermen were given over a year's notice that the ban was to be introduced. This at least prevented them from buying nets between August 1961 and September 1962, or it should have done. Those who bought them before then did get a season they did not expect, because legislation took rather a long time to get through the House. They got a season very few of us expected because certain members of the Committee were rather long-winded in dealing with these matters. The fishermen were rather grateful for the long-windedness.
Mr. Stodart: Has the hon. Member gone to the trouble of ascertaining who was the most long-winded of all on that Committee?
Mr. Willis: I have a very vivid recollection of the people who were the most long-winded on that Committee, but this did enable the fishermen at that time to get an extra season salmon fishing. They had just over a year's notice that the Order was to be introduced, which prevented large numbers of them from purchasing nets.

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I recognise the problem here, because I have fishermen in my constituency who take part in drift-net fishing and they are not backward in keeping me informed of their problems of which the problem of compensation is one.
Mr. George Y. Mackie: Surely the hon. Member is aware of many examples of promised legislation even in this Parliament which have taken a great deal of time to come forward and may never come forward. Surely it is no case for depriving people of their means of livelihood and making their gear useless to say that they were warned beforehand. It may reduce the need for compensation, but it does not remove it.
Mr. Willis: If the hon. Member had been in the House at the time, he would have appreciated that it was made very clear that it was intended to introduce legislation giving powers to prohibit this practice. There was no dubiety about it at all. Legislation was introduced, I think at the beginning of the 1961-62 Session, with the intention of it being through by the New Year, but it took rather longer which is one reason why the prohibition did not come into effect for some time.
The hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour) raised the question of Greenland salmon fisheries. I do not want to say much about that at the moment, but I think his point was that this was also having an effect on salmon stocks. The latest figures are not quite as bad as the figures twelve months ago, but if the hon. Gentleman cares to see me afterwards, I think it will save taking up time on this point now.
The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) said that I had come along this year with the same story, and that the position was still unjust. I must remind the hon. Gentleman, when he talks about my giving the same story as last year, that he was one of the first Members of the House to be seized of the urgency to do something about drift-net fishing for salmon. He was one of the Members engaged in the original stampede to the Secretary of State, urging upon the Secretary of State the necessity to do something to stop it.
Mr. George Y. Mackie: Scandalous.
Mr. Willis: The hon. Gentleman now takes rather a different view. But I would ask him to bear in mind that, in making the speech that he did, he turned a pretty good somersault from the stand that he took in about 1960 when he pattered along the lobbies feverishly to see the Secretary of State in order to get something done.
However, we are getting on with the job, as I told the hon. Gentleman last year and as I have already said tonight. We hope that we shall be able to get the matter considered. We shall announce what our intentions are upon the Hunter Report as soon as possible, and we hope meanwhile that the House will give us the Order.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Drift-net Fishing) (Extension) Order, 1965, dated 26th November, 1965, a copy of which was laid before this House on 2nd December, be approved.

LAND COMMISSION [MONEY]
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of a Land Commission, to make provision as to the finances of the Commission and to confer on the Commission powers to acquire, manage and dispose of land, and to impose a betterment levy in respect of land, it is expedient to authorise—

(1) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund or raising by borrowing of such sums as may be required to be so issued or raised in consequence of any provision of the said Act of the present Session whereby, subject to a limit of £75 million on the aggregate amount outstanding by way of principal in respect of the advances, the Treasury may make advances out of the Consolidated Fund to the Land Commission for the purposes of the Land Acquisition and Management Fund established under that Act;

(2) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Land Commission in consequence of any provision of the said Act;

(3) any increase attributable to any provision of the said Act in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under any other enactment.

Resolution agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS
[31st January]
Resolutions reported,

WAYS AND MEANS

  LAND COMMISSION
  1. That a levy, to be called betterment levy, shall be imposed in respect of land; and that it is expedient—

  (a) to make provision as to the rate at which betterment levy is to be charged and as to the value or other amount on which it is to be charged, and

  (b) in other respects to make provision for the assessment and payment of betterment levy, including provision for the payment of interest on the principal amount of the levy.

  2. That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of a Land Commission, to make provision as to the finances of the Commission and to confer on the Commission powers to acquire, manage and dispose of land, and to impose a betterment levy in respect of land, it is expedient to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of sums required to be so paid by virtue of that Act.
  First Resolution read a Second time.
  Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 90 (Ways and Means Motions and Resolutions), and agreed to.
  Second Resolution agreed to.

JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (SUBSISTENCE ALLOWANCES)
11.9 p.m.
Sir Barnett Janner: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to remove the limit of three miles from residence in respect of subsistence allowances payable to magistrates under Section 8 of the Justices of the Peace Act, 1949.
At various times I have raised questions which have appeared to me to come within this definition, and on this occasion I am again raising points which come within this term.
The basis of the present grant of subsistence allowance to magistrates, believe it or not, is the distance as the crow flies. Some 16,000 magistrates in the country are doing yeoman service and save the country £20 million or more a year, basing the calculation on the amount that is paid to stipendiary magistrates.
As I say, the allowance is based on a distance as the crow flies. If it had been the timing of a distance over which a crow walks, one might have been able to understand it. If one imagined a crow walking or riding down a crowded Piccadilly towards a court and then calculated how long it would take that crow to get from one end of the street to the other, one could understand the use of such a standard. To talk about magistrates who live within three miles from the court as the crow flies being able to go home and get back to the court within an hour or an hour and a half to enable them to carry on their duties is ludicrous and absurd.
I raised this matter last year, and the Magistrates' Associations has raised it time and again. Magistrates throughout the country have tried to point out that although they are prepared to give their valuable services voluntarily, it is nonsense that a magistrate who lives within three miles of a court should be refused subsistence allowance, while a fellow magistrate who lives three miles and one yard from the same court gets it in order that he may have a meal and return to his duties. Anyone with a realistic outlook ought to appreciate that that position should be remedied.
Perhaps I might give the House one or two examples to show what I mean.

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A magistrate who sits at a court in Kent wrote:
"I would like to state that less than one month ago three Examining Magistrates sat on what was stated to be the longest hearing in the history"
of the court which he named.
"The case concerned two motor dealers who were charged with stealing a number of motor cars and then converting them to their own use. There were seventy-five charges in all and sixty-two witnesses were heard. The hearing lasted seven days.
Two of the Magistrates, including myself, live about one and a half miles from the court and the other magistrate lives nearer. It was impossible to get home for a meal and on each occasion it was necessary to purchase a lunch in a restaurant. Even the cup of tea which we had during an afternoon break had to be paid for. To a magistrate, who like myself, has only one income, the retirement pension, this does create considerable hardship. On normal days when the court is sitting I am unable to arrange to have my meal at home as one does not know how long one will be required to sit until the cases proceed.
In my opinion the distance rule should be entirely abolished and all magistrates who sit for four hours or longer should be entitled to subsistence allowance, and if the Association can do anything to secure this I will be very grateful as I am sure that many other magistrates would be too."
That is part of the letter which he wrote to the Magistrates' Association.
Another magistrate wrote to say that she was glad the matter was being raised in the House, and added:
"It is at once an absurdity, an indignity, and, for some, a hardship. I sit regularly at"—
and she named the court.
"It takes me at least three-quarters of an hour to get there. Lunch at home is impossible. I am told (although I have not yet put it to the test) by our Clerk that I live just within the three miles. One day I sat and lunched with a pensioner J P …. (he is normally at)"—
and she named the other court—
"and he told me how difficult it was for him to manage. He had claimed subsistence but had been unsuccessful. He was hurt and bewildered."
I could quote many examples of that kind. It is not a question of magistrates asking for an allowance by way of charity. It is a question of a simple right which ought to be conceded to a person who is prepared to give his time to this important work. I have here the details of one person affected who attended as many as 500 cases in the juvenile courts,
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and we know that all of this work is done by unpaid magistrates. They do not ask for payment; what they ask for is a reasonable concession to those fellow-magistrates who are not living more than three miles from the court as the crow flies.
An absurd position arises when three magistrates sitting together in a court go, for example, to lunch together. They have to be back in time for the sitting of the court in the afternoon, otherwise there would be proper complaints. Two have subsistence allowances, because they live just beyond the three miles limit, and the third has to pay for his meal because he lives just within that distance.
I am sure the House will agree that that position cannot be tolerated any longer.
Mr. T. W. Jones: I am one of them.
Sir B. Janner: My hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth (Mr. T. W. Jones) says that he is one of them. The position covers many people, but the amount involved is very, very small compared with the amount that is saved. I understand that when the matter was put to the authorities again recently by the Committee of Magistrates for Inner London it was told that the claim was not being put off indefinitely. I therefore appeal to the Minister that it is high time that the position was put right. In these days magistrates are asked to go to classes to learn their job and to become, in a sense, experts before they are allowed to handle cases themselves. They are called upon to deal with the increased amount of crime that is going on at present, and some of them sit until late in the evening. Most are doing their work in a highly commendable manner.
It has been recognised recently that the amounts allowed for subsistence before were not adequate to meet the case. The 10s. allowance for 4–8 hours has been increased to 12s. 6d., and the 17s. 6d. for 8–12 hours has been increased to 23s., and so on. The magistrates ask why the allowances should have been increased—although they were small enough before—before a similar allowance is paid to those magistrates who cannot go home to lunch because there is not time? This should have prior consideration.

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I strongly appeal to the House to call upon the Government to reject the idea that the amount involved is likely to put the Government into difficulty. It will not put them into any difficulty. In very many cases magistrates who are entitled to the allowance now do not claim the allowance if they can get home, and many who cannot get home also do not claim it. If we want a proper cross-section of the public—capable of acting as magistrates, their credentials having been examined beforehand—to offer their services in the future we cannot treat them in the shabby way in which they are being treated at present.
I ask the House to be good enough to give me leave to introduce the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Barnett Janner, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Hamling, Mr. Lubbock, Mr. Perry, Commander Pursey, Mr. Temple, Mr. Albert Roberts, Mr. Mapp, Mr. Maxwell, Mr. R. W. Brown, and Mr. George Craddock.

JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (SUBSISTENCE ALLOWANCES)
  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (SUBSISTENCE ALLOWANCES)
  Bill to remove the limit of three miles from residence in respect of subsistence allowances payable to magistrates under section 8 of the Justice of the Peace Act 1949; presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday and to be printed. [Bill 62.]

WALES (TOURIST INDUSTRY)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ifor Davies.]
11.20 p.m.
Mr. W. G. Morgan: I am grateful, even at this late hour, to have the opportunity of raising on the Adjournment the subject of the Welsh tourist industry. We heard a good deal earlier about salmon and trout fisheries, and one English Member referred to their importance to the tourist industry of Scotland. The House will be relieved to learn that this is an aspect of the Welsh tourist industry with which I do not propose to deal, as there are other subjects which I want to speak about.
It is about 2½ years since this matter was last raised, either in the House or in the Welsh Grand Committee. There was a debate on the subject in the Welsh Grand Committee in July, 1963, when that Committee had before it the Report of the Council of Wales and Monmouthshire on the Welsh tourist industry, which had been prepared after some exhaustive work by a panel of the Council over a period of three years. One of the panel's recommendations was that there should be a proper survey of the tourist industry in Wales, and its Report contained the first fair assessment of this industry and its importance to the Welsh economy. As a consequence of that debate, the then Minister for Welsh Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), made a grant of £40,000 for research into and development of the industry.
It is beyond doubt that this subject is one of the greatest importance to the Welsh economy. As far back as 1961, there was an annual turnover of £50 million in the tourist industry, and it could play an important part in the balance of payments struggle which is, unfortunately, a battle which is always with us. So far, however, the number of foreign visitors whom we have been able to attract to Wales has been disappointing. I have referred to these figures, and I should not like the House to think that I intend in any way to be gloomy in what I am going to say. I wish only to sound a warning—that impressive figures are capable of

1045
being dangerous as they can create complacency.
Good figures can dwindle as easily as they can grow: a good deal more easily, in fact. It has been pointed out by experts in the business that the Welsh tourist industry has this weakness—that it depends much too much upon tourist streams which were generated by the tastes of an earlier century. We must remember in this connection that we now have to compete with foreign nations with a heritage of sun which is not shared by any part of these islands.
While, of course, we are anxious to preserve our traditional tourists, we must bear in mind that we have to attract the young and modern-minded as well. As against all this there is a great potential in Wales which is as yet untapped. Mid-Wales, for example, is an area of great natural beauty where, unhappily, for the past century we have seen much depopulation. A great deal could be done to popularise this area, which would be some panacea, although not a complete answer, to its problems. Many foreign delegations come to this country. They are looked after by the Central Office of Information. Very few, if any, come to Wales. Could anything be done by the Government to bring influence to bear on the C.O.I. in this respect?
As I said earlier, there is very little evidence to show that the contribution of overseas visitors to the overall growth of this industry in Wales is any more than minimal. In fact, I believe that in 1961—the year for which I quoted the figure of £50 million of general turnover—the contribution of foreign visitors was about £250,000. There is no reason why this should not be changed.
An excellent example is provided in my constituency, in Llangollen, showing how a small Welsh town can become an international centre—a striking example of what can be achieved. In becoming a cultural centre, new life has been brought to this small town which, in turn, has been brought to the attention of many nations. This is not confined to Llangollen, because in Wales as a whole there is a wide variety of scenery, institutions and national occasions. We must take a hard look at this aspect of the problem to see what we can do to attract to Wales foreigners, other than Englishmen and Scotsmen!
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Another way of looking at the problem is from the point of view of the localities concerned. In many areas tourism represents the only real avenue of development and employment open to the particular community, and it should be accepted that support for the tourist trade is as vital for these people as industrial development is in other parts.
One cannot over-estimate the importance of publicity or propaganda in this connection, setting out the value of the tourist industry to the country as a whole. I will return later to the question of the Welsh Tourist Association, as it is now called. The importance of the industry is not sufficiently appreciated by people at large, even in Wales. The benefits to be derived from tourism are great, and it is as important to make Wales tourist-conscious as it is to make tourists aware of Wales.
The importance of the industry is being recognised more and more and great strides forward have been made from the point of view of both the Government and the general public. However, it is evident that something more than tacit general support by the Government is called for, and I now come to the core of my remarks, because I have some suggestions to put forward to help the industry, which, I hope, the Government will seriously consider.
Could the Government consider establishing some sort of central Government agency or Department which could advise and provide the professional and technical skill which is at present not available to many of the smaller tourist areas? Obviously, these areas cannot provide such an organisation, or anything like it, from their own resources. I am really asking for a visiting expert to help such places. I appreciate, of course, that while it is easy to make such a suggestion, it may be difficult to carry it out.
Next, I have a proposal on which I am particularly keen and which I hope will receive the Minister's closest attention. We all know of the difficulty occasioned by seasonal unemployment in the well-known North Wales resorts in the area extending from Llandudno through Colwyn Bay and Abergele to Rhyl and Prestatyn. If I may say so, no one has done more than the Minister

1047
of State to draw attention to the problem, which can be summed up by saying that in Rhyl, for example, the winter unemployment figure is not far short of 5 per cent.
I have in mind a Government-sponsored scheme whereby hotel staff could receive training and refresher courses in the off-season while being retained in employment, instead of living on unemployment payments or National Assistance, which, I feel, is a waste of talent and money. They could thus reach a greater stage of proficiency, and the tourist industry could give better service to the visitors. I see no reason why those people should not be given grants such as are given to students. The cost would not be much greater, if indeed it was greater at all, than it is at present, while the persons being trained would be devoting their time and talents to a constructive purpose.
The possibilities are great. A great deal could be done, for instance, to improve our cuisine. We have some delicious traditional Welsh dishes, which are rarely presented to visitors. Incidentally, I understand that something of the sort is being done in Scotland, and I do not think that we should be behind our sister nation in this respect. In this connection, I would not exclude short courses in the Welsh language, because foreign visitors are delighted and charmed to hear the oldest language in Europe being spoken.
It has been suggested to me by local authorities in my division that, ancillary to all this, there might be encouragement of small workshops in various centres where genuine indigenous arts and crafts could be developed, and genuine local souvenirs and mementoes produced. We do not wish to rely on, say, Birmingham, to produce Welsh dolls, as all too often happens today. One can envisage courses designed to that end as well during the winter period.
Educational authorities could also be asked to consider the career facilities offered by the tourist trade, and provide some introduction to catering provision in the secondary schools. That has, perhaps, been rather overlooked in the past, even though such education in our technical colleges is of a high order.
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As I appreciate that my time is limited, I should like to make three very quick points with regard to the Welsh Tourist and Holidays Association—Bwrdd Croeso Cymru. Will the Minister of State tell the House whether he is satisfied with the present structure of the Association; whether he feels that every part of Wales is properly represented upon it, and, last but not least, whether it has enough finance?
The Association has done very excellent work, if I may say so, in the last 15 years with very little money indeed. For example, on less than £25,000 per annum, until recently, it had to provide publicity, propaganda, staff and all the other incidentals. I wonder whether its work could not be strengthened by increased Treasury subvention.
I referred earlier to the former Government's grant of £40,000 towards development and research. What progress is being made in this study, and when can we expect the report?
The last question I wish to raise is that of communications. This is one of our black spots. I had a good deal to say about this subject in the Welsh Grand Committee debate on tourism in 1963. I feel very strongly that if anything will turn visitors away from our country, or discourage them from coming again, it is the state of some of our roads. I do not want to embark on a discussion of the Beeching proposals, although I represent a constituency which, unfortunately, was one of the hardest hit by them. There is a proposal at present to restart the branch line service from Ruabon to Barmouth. Could this not be considered in this connection? I appreciate that it has other implications as well, but it is important to the tourist industry.
I particularly ask the Minister of State what is being done about improvement of our road system, especially between the north Welsh coast and areas such as Lancashire and the M6. Consideration should also be given to north-south links in Wales, of course, but from the tourist point of view communications with north-west England are of the greatest importance. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman can give us any encouraging news on this aspect of the problem. I have personally never ceased to compare the excellent approach roads to Blackpool

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in the Fylde division of Lancashire and the much inferior roads in North Wales.
I thank the Minister of State for the patient hearing he has given me and express gratitude to my Welsh colleagues for having come to listen. I have raised a number of points, I hope not too disjointedly, and I hope that I have not left many glaring omissions. The matters to which I have referred are those which occur to me as being of importance and worthy of consideration. I commend them to the Minister of State, of whose personal interest and sympathy I have no doubt.
11.36 p.m.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. Goronwy Roberts): The hon. Member for Denbigh (Mr. Morgan) has made a constructive and thoughful speech. He is quite right in saying that the holiday industry is of great interest and importance to Wales. The Council for Wales Report, from which the hon. Member quoted, stated that in 1961 the tourist industry was the fourth largest industry in Wales. In that year nearly 4¼ million people spent their holidays in Wales, spending 28 million nights in the Principality, an average of a week each, and paid out £50 million in doing so.
The hon. Member referred to the minimal contribution of this great industry to the balance of payments. Although the Council thought that in 1961 only 200,000 to a quarter of a million of this vast number of visitors came from overseas, there is evidence that this overseas proportion has greatly increased in the past five years. But even if we accepted the figure of 200,000, this represents about £2½ million annually in foreign currency. Furthermore, every British holidaymaker attracted to Wales is one who might otherwise might have been attracted, or enticed, overseas, taking precious sterling with him in doing so.
The former chairman of the Wales Tourist and Holidays Association, Dr. Huw T. Edwards, who did so much for Welsh tourism, and his successor in office, Mr. D. J. Davies, are agreed that the potential is even greater. They believe, and we agree, that it is possible to double the earnings of the industry in the next five to 10 years.
There are two aspects to this potential expansion. As the hon. Member so
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rightly said, there are in Wales great resources which in many areas are still untapped. He mentioned Mid-Wales, where the scenery is magnificent. When we consider that 20 per cent. of the holidaymakers in Wales at present go to two resorts while only 8 per cent. go to the five Mid-Wales counties combined, the potential expansion of that area alone is shown to be considerable.
It is not only scenery that we can offer. As the hon. Member said, we have some superb national dishes for which, with all due respect to the hon. Member, he is a handsome testimony. We can as a country properly exploit our language and customs, providing for our visitors an experience which is refreshingly different from what they can expect in other parts of the United Kingdom or abroad.
It is not by imitating other countries that we in Wales can best develop our potential as a holiday centre. Our greatest attraction, our scenery, does not imitate that of any other country; it casts its spell on the visitor precisely because it is unique. So, too, with our ancient language, our music and our crafts, which should all be used more extensively to impart to our visitors the special savour of Wales.
There is a vast market in Britain and abroad for the truly Welsh recreative experience. The hon. Gentleman referred to the international Eisteddfod held in the charming town of Llangollen in his constituency. There, vast numbers come annually from the five continents to join with us in enjoying the Welsh holiday. So, too, with the Royal National Eisteddfod which every year brings thousands of overseas visitors. Each year many people from abroad visit our capital city, with its superb civic centre. More people visited Caernarvon Castle last year than visited any other similar monument in Britain, 250,000 of them, in fact, many coming from abroad.
The Wales Tourist and Holidays Association recently reorganised itself on an effectively representative basis as a consequence of the excellent report of the Committee over which Mr. David Cole presided, and the Association is commendably pressing forward on the lines I have indicated. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is at present engaged in a far reaching survey of facilities for tourism in

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Wales and the potential market. This is partly financed by a Government grant of £40,000, and the operation is conducted by a development officer of great experience, Mr. Rees, under whom three field officers work in North, Central and South Wales respectively.
In answer to the hon. Gentleman, I can say that the entire exercise will take three years to complete, and there are about two years to run before the full results are known. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State expects that an interim report will be available in March of this year, and this will undoubtedly be extremely useful to the Association and to the industry generally pending publication of the final report.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the finances of the Association. It has three sources of finance, as have the other corresponding national associations in the United Kingdom. First, the Welsh local authorities, who co-operate most effectively with the Association, are contributing this year about £13,400 to the treasury of the Association. Second, there is the British Travel Association, which contributes about £11,000 which is earmarked for overseas publicity. Third, there are subscriptions from the holiday industry itself, amounting this year, I understand, to a little under £2,000.
Clearly, the quickest way to expand the Association's resources would be for the tourist industry to recognise somewhat more fully the great benefits which accrue to it from the Association's activities. By supporting the Association financially, the Welsh holiday industry would be investing in its own increasing prosperity.
This industry, as the hon. Gentleman said, is in some parts of Wales almost the only available source of employment; but he was quite right to point out, as my hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth (Mr. T. W. Jones) has repeatedly pointed out in the House, that tourism is still a seasonal industry, with consequent winter unemployment.
The hon. Gentleman made one or two suggestions on this point which, I am sure, merit our closest attention. I refer, in particular, to his proposal that hotel workers should be enabled to improve
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their expertise by following short courses during the winter months and that local authorities and private industry might be encouraged to set up workshops, which redundant holiday workers might enter during the off-peak season, producing articles for sale in the holiday season. These are suggestions which I am sure my right hon. Friend will wish to examine very closely. At the moment, I cannot say whether they are practicable, but they are certainly very attractive.
On the subject of improved communications, among other questions which he put the hon. Gentleman asked whether there was a possibility of reactivating certain railway lines and he mentioned one in particular for which he and my hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth have fought so hard, that between Ruabon and Barmouth. The answer to that must be that where there is substantial and dependable evidence of need and of developing future use, a proposal may be considered, but I must emphasise that such evidence would have to be quite conclusive. The economics of this kind of thing are very formidable.
We can all agree with the hon. Gentleman that road communications in Wales, as throughout the country generally, must be improved. There are priorities in this and we all accept them. Priority must obviously be given to areas where there is the greatest all-the-year-round use and need. We must look after our developing manufacturing industry. We must be careful to develop communications between the new industries which are coming to the aid of the old in South Wales, for instance, so that our growing industrial power in certain parts of Wales is not stultified by lack of access to raw materials and to markets.
None the less, the road improvements which are now projected for Wales cannot fail to assist the tourist industry. In North Wales, the Llandudno junction flyover, which, I am glad to say, is to go ahead shortly, will remove one of the worst bottlenecks on A.55. The diversion at Abergele, excepted to start later this year, and the St. Asaph by-pass, which we now expected to authorise in 1966–67, will help to improve the route further. This is a direct contribution to the solution of the problem of the access from North-West England to the Snowdonia National Park.

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In the South—and we must remember that in South Wales we have some of the loveliest areas in the whole of Britain, including my hon. Friend's constituency of Gower itself—we hope to make improvements to the access roads into Wales. The construction of the Severn Bridge and M.4 and the improvements of A.48 and the Heads of the Valleys Road will all help to improve the means of getting to and from the national parks and beauty spots. There are, too, many smaller schemes either in hand or planned which will make a contribution and we are hoping to do more by way of minor improvements to bring up the standard of roads on which there are particular problems at present and which run through typical tourist areas. I am glad to add that in this way the road communications between North and South Wales are constantly being improved.
In conclusion, my right hon. Friend would wish me to say that he fully recog-
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nises the great potential of the Welsh holiday industry. He is closely studying its place in the economy of Wales, and the increasing contribution it is making to the viability of many parts of the principality, as well as its contribution to the solution of the balance of payments problem. The Welsh Economic Council and the Welsh Planning Board are actively considering the future rôle of this growing industry, and I would certainly expect that the Plan for Wales, to be published this year will include a substantial reference to this industry. I am sure that my hon. Friends will agree that the manner and content of the speech of the hon. Member for Denbigh will undoubtedly help to stimulate fresh thought and interest in this important industry.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes to Twelve o'clock.

COAL
  Anthracite and Phurnacite Supplies (Wanstead and Woodford)
  Anthracite and Phurnacite Supplies (Wanstead and Woodford)
  Coke Prices
  Coke Prices
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Power Cuts
  Power Cuts
  Gas and Electric Boards (Advertising)
  Gas and Electric Boards (Advertising)
  Tipton Gas Works
  Tipton Gas Works
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Commonwealth Countries (Severance of Diplomatic Relations)
  Commonwealth Countries (Severance of Diplomatic Relations)
  Zambia and Malawi (African Administrators)
  Zambia and Malawi (African Administrators)
  Overseas Development Aid (Cost)
  Overseas Development Aid (Cost)
  Private Businesses
  Private Businesses
TECHNOLOGY
  Public Relations Officer (Appointment)
  Public Relations Officer (Appointment)
  Fast Breeder Reactor (Site)
  Fast Breeder Reactor (Site)
  British Standards Institution (Sponsorship)
  British Standards Institution (Sponsorship)
  Computers and Machine Tools (Government Contracts)
  Computers and Machine Tools (Government Contracts)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Tetracycline (Foreign Exchange Allocation)
  Tetracycline (Foreign Exchange Allocation)
  Matches (Customs and Excise Taxation)
  Matches (Customs and Excise Taxation)
  Premium Bonds (Prizes)
  Premium Bonds (Prizes)
  Board of Inland Revenue Report (Frequency Distributions)
  Board of Inland Revenue Report (Frequency Distributions)
  Income Tax (Non-Payment and Avoidance)
  Income Tax (Non-Payment and Avoidance)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Water Resources Act, 1963 (Licences of Right)
  Water Resources Act, 1963 (Licences of Right)
  Staff
  Staff
  Loan Debt
  Loan Debt
  Redevelopment (Kidbrooke)
  Redevelopment (Kidbrooke)
  Manchester Water Order, 1965
  Manchester Water Order, 1965
  Discharged Prisoners' Hostel (Birmingham)
  Discharged Prisoners' Hostel (Birmingham)
  Private Streets (Making-up Ban)
  Private Streets (Making-up Ban)
  Flood Damage (Exchequer Assistance)
  Flood Damage (Exchequer Assistance)
HOUSING
  Constructions (1965 and 1966)
  Constructions (1965 and 1966)
  Slum Clearance (Subsidy)
  Slum Clearance (Subsidy)
  Completions (First Quarter of 1966)
  Completions (First Quarter of 1966)
  Standard Grants
  Standard Grants
  RHODESIA
  RHODESIA
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Floods (Prevention)
  Floods (Prevention)
  Brambell Report
  Brambell Report
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Zambia
  Zambia
  Rhodesia and Zambia
  Rhodesia and Zambia
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Weather (Long-Range Forecasting)
  Weather (Long-Range Forecasting)
  Ships and Aircraft (Naval Personnel)
  Ships and Aircraft (Naval Personnel)
  Army (Under-Strength Battalions)
  Army (Under-Strength Battalions)
  Singapore Base (Employees)
  Singapore Base (Employees)
  Armoured Personnel Carriers
  Armoured Personnel Carriers
  Military Equipment (Exports)
  Military Equipment (Exports)
  Research (Civilian Scientists and Engineers)
  Research (Civilian Scientists and Engineers)
  Royal Navy (Admirals and Ships in Service)
  Royal Navy (Admirals and Ships in Service)
  Polaris Submarines (Running and Shore Installation Costs)
  Polaris Submarines (Running and Shore Installation Costs)
  Posts of Admiral's Rank
  Posts of Admiral's Rank
  Regular Recruits (Training)
  Regular Recruits (Training)
  Army Volunteer Reserve (Training)
  Army Volunteer Reserve (Training)
  Army General Reserve
  Army General Reserve
  Bases (Cyprus)
  Bases (Cyprus)
EMPLOYMENT
  Redundant Miners (Retraining)
  Redundant Miners (Retraining)
  Lost Working Days
  Lost Working Days
POST OFFICE
  Post Box Facilities (East Lothian)
  Post Box Facilities (East Lothian)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  S.T.D.
  S.T.D.
  Kiosks, Northern Ireland (Vandalism)
  Kiosks, Northern Ireland (Vandalism)
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Radio Transmitters (Prosecutions)
  Radio Transmitters (Prosecutions)
  Unlicensed Radio Stations
  Unlicensed Radio Stations
  MALAYSIA (BRITISH FORCES)
  MALAYSIA (BRITISH FORCES)
  RHODESIA
  RHODESIA
  VIETNAM
  VIETNAM
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Military Aircraft (Production Orders and Contracts)
  Military Aircraft (Production Orders and Contracts)
BAHAMAS
  United States Currency
  United States Currency
BECHUANALAND AND BASUTOLAND
  Famine Relief Programme
  Famine Relief Programme
CARIBBEAN
  Death Sentences and Reprieves
  Death Sentences and Reprieves
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  National Union of Mineworkers (Pay Claim)
  National Union of Mineworkers (Pay Claim)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Nursery Schools (Northumberland)
  Nursery Schools (Northumberland)
HOSPITALS
  United Bristol Hospitals (Boiler House)
  United Bristol Hospitals (Boiler House)
  Bevendean Hospital, Brighton
  Bevendean Hospital, Brighton
HOME DEPARTMENT
  M.4 (Fog Warning Lights)
  M.4 (Fog Warning Lights)
  Crime and Minor Motoring Offences (Eastbourne)
  Crime and Minor Motoring Offences (Eastbourne)
  United Kingdom Citizenship (South African Applications)
  United Kingdom Citizenship (South African Applications)
  Borstal Training
  Borstal Training
  Probation Hostels and Staff
  Probation Hostels and Staff
LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES
  Mineral Development Commission
  Mineral Development Commission
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Government Departments (Central Heating)
  Government Departments (Central Heating)
  Public Buildings (Heating and Lighting Costs)
  Public Buildings (Heating and Lighting Costs)
  Building Regulations Advisory Committee (Membership)
  Building Regulations Advisory Committee (Membership)
SCOTLAND
  Teachers' Salaries (National Board for Prices and Incomes)
  Teachers' Salaries (National Board for Prices and Incomes)
  Criminal Statistics
  Criminal Statistics
  Regular Police (Strength)
  Regular Police (Strength)
  Heriot-Watt University (Charter)
  Heriot-Watt University (Charter)
BOARD OF TRADE
  Commonwealth Preferences
  Commonwealth Preferences
TRANSPORT
  Parking Facilities (London Area)
  Parking Facilities (London Area)
ROADS
  Speed Limit Signs
  Speed Limit Signs
  Ripley Bypass
  Ripley Bypass
  Newmarket Bypass
  Newmarket Bypass
  Accidents
  Accidents
  Roundabout, Bury St. Edmunds
  Roundabout, Bury St. Edmunds
  Colnbrook Bypass (A.4 Junction)
  Colnbrook Bypass (A.4 Junction)
RAILWAYS
  Free and Privileged Travel
  Free and Privileged Travel
  Passenger Services (Holiday Areas)
  Passenger Services (Holiday Areas)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chester
The Lord Phillimore—Took the Oath.
The Lord Marks of Broughton—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Lord Harlech—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Earl of Chichester—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

TRAFFIC CONTROL IN CENTRAL LONDON
2.35 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement upon the extension of the yellow traffic box system in Central London; and how many have been added since December 13 last.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF POWER (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, the Greater London Council, as the traffic authority, are now responsible for the box junction experiment in Central London. They have recently undertaken, with the police, a review of its effects. Any further extension of the system will depend on the outcome of this review. The system has not been extended to other junctions in London since December 13 last.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while I am very appreciative of his efforts, we seem to be getting nowhere
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fast? Would he feel that perhaps it might be useful in the near future to have an Unstarred Question on this matter, so that we may probe the preference of the Ministry for motor traffic as against pedestrians?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, that is a matter for my noble friend, but I must point out that as the result of Parliamentary action the traffic authority for London is now the Greater London Council and, that being so, the responsibility is with them.

"THE PENKOVSKY PAPERS"
2.37 p.m.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, since Colonel Penkovsky appears to have been run jointly by British and American intelligence services, the publication of The Penkovsky Papers was approved by the British security authorities.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARYOF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD WALSTON): No, my Lords. The publishers did not seek our approval. One Sunday newspaper (not the one that published extracts from the book) did, however, submit a proof copy, as a matter of courtesy, to the Secretary of the Services, Press and Broadcasting Committee and was told that British security interests were not at stake.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that full and helpful Answer. Is the Government aware that the book says that Penkovsky reported that Khrushchev was preparing a first strike on this country and on the United States simultaneously, and that that is incredible?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I am quite aware that that is what Colonel Penkovsky said. How incredible that may be is a matter on which noble Lords and others must draw their own conclusions.
LORD KENNET: Lastly, my Lords, may I ask whether the Government is

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satisfied that it can, under the present arrangements, prevent the publication in friendly countries of its own intelligence material when such publication would be contrary to its own policy, in this case the East/West détente.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, the Government is quite satisfied that its relations with friendly countries are such that it is highly unlikely that any matters which would be thought undesirable by Her Majesty's Government would, in fact, be published with the approval of any other friendly Government.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, if I may come back once more, would it be right to take the noble Lord's statement as an indication of acceptance of the book as a valid historical document on the part of Her Majesty's Government?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, if by "valid historical document" the noble Lord means a document which can be taken as being in every respect accurate, he would not, I think, be right. If by "a valid historical document" he means an interesting contribution to contemporary history, the answer is, yes, certainly.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the book was, in fact, entirely written by Penkovsky, or whether it was not?
LORD WALSTON: I am afraid that I cannot help the noble Earl on that matter. It was published under his name. Whether it was "ghosted" or written by others, I do not know.

REGENT'S PARK TERRACES
2.40 p.m.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they do not consider that any further demolition of the Regent's Park Terraces, even to a minor extent, should now be prevented; and whether the Crown Estate Commission could not be persuaded to live up to its responsibilities by repairing Chester Gate and Cambridge Terrace.]
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, the Crown Estate Commissioners have comprehensive plans for the preservation of the Regent's Park Terraces. The Gorell Committee in 1947 advised that a minimum of seven terraces should at all costs be restored and preserved. The Commissioners are going further than this and are preserving almost all the terraces, covering a further eight blocks of buildings.
Four of the ten houses in Cambridge Terrace were destroyed by fire, and it was never a terrace of the consequence of the others. Accordingly, the Gorell Committee thought that it should be demolished. The present plan is that, along with the few neighbouring houses in Chester Gate and in Albany Street, it should provide a site for a Hall of Residence for students of London University. The Crown Estate Commissioners have been in close consultation with the Royal Fine Art Commission and have made it clear to the University that they will require any new building on this site to be worthy of its setting, and to be in harmony with the scale and character of the Nash terraces, and in particular with the southern end of the restored Chester Terrace.
From what I have said, it will be seen that the Commissioners are living up fully to their responsibilities and Her Majesty's Government do not think it necessary to ask them to reconsider any of their proposals.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, can the noble Lord say why there should be any question whatever of pulling down any of the Nash terraces at this date?
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, I am not quite certain whether my noble friend agrees with the Gorell Report which, I think, did not refer at all to these two parts of the terraces. Chester Gate was not even mentioned. The other, as I am sure my noble friend will agree (because I am quite certain he has seen it), is not really in accord with the standards of nobility of the other Nash terraces.
LORD ILFORD: My Lords, will the noble Lord consider whether the time has not come when the responsibility for these terraces should be taken out of the hands of the Crown Estate Commissioners altogether and vested in a board

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of trustees, with a definite duty to preserve the terraces which the public want?
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, that is a completely different question, but I should have thought—and I am sure that the noble Lord, if he reads the Crown Estate Commission's Reports, will feel—that they are very enthusiastic in what they are doing and, I suggest, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, are doing very well indeed.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, nevertheless, would my noble friend not agree that this is a repetition of the old story that happens over and over again? We get two or three reports and three, four or five bodies consult each other; the eye is not quick enough to follow what is happening and, in the end, down comes a fine old building.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, I am not certain how old the Chester Gate terrace is. I rather think that it is late Victorian, so it is not so old. I personally do not think it is fine at all.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, may I correct my noble friend? The two terraces referred to in my Question are both Nash terraces, in the sense that they came from his workshop at the time he built the others.

PRISON SECURITY AND PRESS PUBLICITY
2.44 p.m.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied:

1. that the publication of information giving the names of prisons in which individual prisoners are serving their sentences is best calculated to meet the needs of security;

2. that the publication of details of security measures being taken to safeguard the persons of individual prisoners is wise or desirable;

3. that the publication, often in detail, of the steps being taken to recapture escaped prisoners is not
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playing into the hands of those escaping, and leading to frustration of the efforts of those engaged in the chase.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, it is not the practice of the Home Office to disclose to the Press or to the television or broadcasting authorities the whereabouts of individual prisoners, or to give any details of security measures; but prisoners have families and friends who visit them, and we interfere as little as possible with what is said at these visits. Prisoners are also continually being discharged, and we have no control over what they, or any other persons not in custody, choose to say to the Press or to the television or broadcasting authorities. I consider the publication of information about individual prisoners or security measures to be undesirable in principle, but I do not think it would be practicable to prevent it. In any case the information published is often inaccurate. The extent to which the police give information about their investigations is a matter for the chief officer of police to decide. When chief officers seek the aid of the public it often happens that valuable information is received as a result of Press publicity.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, I. thank the noble Lord very much for his reply and for his courtesy in this matter. May I start my supplementary questions by saying that, as the noble Lord will be aware, my Question was framed long before this fresh spate of publicity concerning the movement of prisoners from Durham to the Isle of Wight was given to the world by the Press over this last weekend? Would the noble Lord not agree that such announcements are not calculated to assist the police and others responsible for safe custody and security generally? Would he not further agree that, ideally, complete silence concerning the whereabouts or the movements or projected movements of prisoners would be a wiser policy, if it were possible to achieve it, and most likely to serve the interests of security? Would he not agree that, if necessary, restriction of the Press should in extreme cases he resorted to? Finally, with regard to this movement reported over the week-end of prisoners from one gaol to another, it

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is said that they are being shut up in 28-cell maximum security block built at a cost of £250,000, and the noble Lord will no doubt have seen that the senior warden said yesterday,
"The man has not been born who can get out of this block."
May I hope that the noble Lord will join me in hoping that the senior warden will not have to eat his words?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, taking the last of the noble Lord's five questions first, I very much doubt whether this experienced prison officer said what he is alleged to have said. He is more likely to have said that the prison has not yet been built from which some man cannot escape. With regard to the first supplementary that the noble Lord put to me, this is typical of the position, because we have made no statement at all to the Press or to anyone else about the move to which he referred and therefore these Press stories are merely speculative, as anyone who analyses them will discover. The Press said that these prisoners were to be transported by air, or by road or by rail. I do not think that that information constitutes a serious breach of security.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, were not facilities given to the Press to interview some of these prisoners in prison by the Home Office? If so, does that not mean that the Home Office must disclose to the Press the whereabouts of prisoners, and how can that be reconciled with the noble Lord's Answer to the question on the Order Paper?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, the whereabouts of certain prisoners has been a matter of general knowledge for some time, and the Home Office has no objection to confirming information if it is true and generally known. With regard to the special facilities to which the noble and learned Viscount has referred, my right honourable friend felt that the public interest and concern which has been caused by the largely inaccurate reports that have been circulated about the conditions of the inmates, could be allayed if the Press were allowed to go to the prison and see the conditions for themselves and have the opportunity of telling the public about them.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the action of the Home Secretary in this matter is very much to be applauded, and that the report in to-day's Daily Mail has brought a new sense of balance into the whole question?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I will convey the noble Lord's remarks to my right honourable friend. I should also like to add, in reply to a question by the noble Lord, Lord Ailwyn, which I did not answer, that his suggestion of any kind of Press censorship in these matters would, in my view, be not only wholly undesirable but completely impracticable.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Lord Silsoe be proposed to the House as a member of the Committee.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL [H.L.]
2.52 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. The purpose of the Bill is to consolidate and amend the legislation relating to the veterinary profession. Under present arrangements, the profession is governed by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, under the Veterinary Surgeons Acts 1881 to 1948 and, in addition, eleven Royal Charters. There is a clear need to restate the law on this subject, as your Lordships will appreciate. In addition, experience has shown that a number of amendments are necessary, and these are included in this Bill. I shall refer to the more important of these in more detail later.
From what I have said, I hope it is clear that this Bill is not as formidable as its length might perhaps suggest. In fact, the Royal College itself requested the Bill, to make it easier to regulate the

269
profession; and the Bill has the general support also of the British Veterinary Association, subject to one or two particular points. Your Lordships will be interested to know that the terms of the Bill follow closely the precedents of comparable legislation, such as the Dentists Act 1957, the Opticians Act 1958, and the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Act 1960. What we are proposing is that there should be one Act governing the profession. The Bill re-states those provisions of the present Acts which are still needed. In addition, it includes many provisions of the Royal Charters I have mentioned which relate to the public interest rather than to the domestic affairs of the College.
As a corollary to what we are proposing here—and quite separate—the College is considering, with the Privy Council, the terms on which application might be made to the Crown for a new Charter. This Charter would revoke all the existing ones, except for a few provisions of the original 1844 Charter of incorporation. The new Charter would be confined to regulating matters of mainly domestic concern to the College. The effect, therefore, of this Bill and of the new Charter would be that for all practical purposes the profession would be governed by the College under one Act and one Charter. I feel sure that your Lordships will agree that this would be a much better arrangement than the existing one.
I mentioned that this Bill also contains a number of amendments to the existing legislation, and I should now like to refer to them. First, I wish to mention the proposal in Clause 2 and Clause 7 to add a fourth part to the Register of Veterinary Surgeons. At present there are three parts to this register, a General list, a Commonwealth list, and a Foreign list. We think that a fourth list is necessary to help many graduates of overseas veterinary schools coming to this country for post-graduate training and experience.
In order that they may take full advantage of the facilities offered at veterinary schools and research institutes, it is often necessary for them to practise veterinary surgery to some extent. The College should recognise an overseas qualification only in those cases where the teaching received by the graduate
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will in all respects have qualified him to practise in the farming conditions existing in this country. Unless the College has the proposed power of temporary registration, many graduates from overseas who have undergone courses which make them competent veterinarians in their own country may be precluded from making the best use of their time in this country. We propose to put this right by giving the Royal College power to award temporary registration, subject to such restrictions as it may think fit, to holders of overseas qualifications who are not regarded as competent to practise generally in the United Kingdom. I am sure that this will be of considerable benefit to the people concerned, and particularly to graduates from developing countries who come to the United Kingdom for post-graduate studies.
The next important change which I should like to mention is contained in Clauses 8 and 10. Your Lordships will see that Clause 8 provides for the continuation of the Supplementary Veterinary Register. It also enables certain employees of animal welfare societies to be registered, subject to certain conditions, in the Supplementary Veterinary Register. This is a new provision, and I should like to explain why we think it is necessary. Under the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1948, the Minister was given power to license employees of animal welfare societies to practise veterinary surgery within a limited field. This was done because at that time the societies were meeting difficulties in obtaining suitable professional assistance. Now, however, there is no longer such a shortage of veterinary surgeons, as the Report of the recent Northumberland Committee has shown, and we thought it only right to review the position of these people who have been licensed by the Minister under the 1948 Act.
The Royal College has discussed this matter in detail with the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals, which employs most of the licensees, and we have accepted the proposals which they have put forward. I am glad to say that the Council of the British Veterinary Association also accepted the proposals. These are that the system of licensing should be abandoned, but that, in order to protect the livelihood of existing licensees, they should, if they wish, be admitted to the

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Supplementary Veterinary Register as a once-and-for-all operation. This provision will, of course, allow existing licensees to practise a wider range of veterinary surgery than they are allowed to do at the moment. On the other hand, there are only 56 licensees, and I doubt whether many of them will leave their present jobs. I must stress, too, that it is the Government's firm intention that there should be no further addition of unqualified persons to any of the Veterinary Registers. I hope your Lordships will agree that this is the best solution.
Another important change, effected by Clause 11, will be to give the Royal College power to charge increased fees for persons on the Registers. The level of fees will be subject to approval by the Privy Council. At present, a maximum of five guineas is fixed by legislation for persons on the Register of Veterinary Surgeons, and one guinea for those on the Supplementary Register. The Royal College has been operating at the maximum for some time, and an increase is necessary to meet increased costs.
My Lords, there are a number of other changes of a relatively minor nature contained in the Bill which I shall not go into now. However, there is one other important amendment which I think I should mention. It is the provision, in Schedule 2 of the Bill, for much closer regulation of the Disciplinary Committee of the College. First, the Council of the College will be required to make rules about the procedure to be followed, and these must include provision on a number of specific matters for the protection of the accused. Second, a legal assessor will be required to sit with the Disciplinary Committee in disciplinary cases, thus giving statutory effect to current practice. Third, appeals from the Committee will now be to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, instead of to the High Court or Court of Session. This restores the position to what it was before the 1948 Act. One of our reasons for doing this is that in some Commonwealth countries the basic qualification for practising veterinary surgery is still registration as a member of the Royal College, and we therefore think that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council would be a more appropriate appeal tribunal. This brings the veterinary profession into line with the medical and dental professions.
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I should like to mention one more point. Under Agreements made in 1931 and 1954 between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Republic of Ireland, special arrangements exist for the registration in this country of holders of veterinary degrees of recognised universities in the Irish Republic; for there to be five representatives from the Republic on the Council of the Royal College; and for the mutual enforcement of disciplinary control over veterinarians practising in either country. Many of the provisions of these Agreements are now obsolete, and negotiations are therefore taking place with the Government of the Republic for a new Agreement. Clause 21 will empower Her Majesty by Order in Council to give effect to the Agreement after it is signed. Your Lordships will realise that there is, of course, reciprocal recognition of the United Kingdom qualifications in the Republic.
As I indicated earlier, this is largely an agreed measure. The British Veterinary Association have, however, pointed out that as Clause 1 is drafted the majority of elected members on the Council could become a minority, should there be an increase in the number of universities with recognised veterinary schools. The Association and the National Farmers' Union have suggested that Schedule 3, which deals with the practice of veterinary surgery by laymen and which has remained unchanged since 1948, is somewhat out of date because of changes in agricultural practice. There is merit in both points, but they do not affect the principles of the Bill, and if your Lordships agree, I suggest that we can discuss them at a later stage.
This Bill is a very useful measure, and one that is important to the profession with which it deals and to their clients—the farmers and other animal owners. I have therefore no hesitation in commending it to your Lordships as a useful measure of reform and worthy of a Second Reading in this House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2—(Lord Champion.)
3.8 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I agree entirely with the closing words of the noble Lord who has introduced this Bill in such felicitous terms. This is a

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useful and important Bill, both to the agricultural profession and to animal owners, and above all to the industry itself. It is important, in the sense that it enables the industry to exercise a considerable amount of self-government, and in that connection I was glad that the noble Lord ended by referring to Clause 1, because undoubtedly there has been some feeling in the industry that it is important that its own governing body should have on it a majority of persons who actually practise veterinary surgery. No doubt we can discuss this matter further on the Committee stage and I think at the moment I can leave the matter there.
I turn secondly to Clause 7, to which the noble Lord referred. It is important here that the Government should declare clearly the limits of the purpose of this particular clause. As the noble Lord has described it to-day, I think the assurances he has given are satisfactory so far as they go. As I understand it, he has said that the purpose of this clause is to enable veterinary surgeons qualified overseas to come over here and study further in this country, and it seems perfectly reasonable that when they are doing so they should have access to clinical experience. I think it is desirable, however, to make sure that this is not just a loophole for a more permanent admission to the profession. It is important to make sure that if this is to be done, the temporary registration shall be really temporary; and while there could be no objection whatsoever to the registration of a person under Clause 6 if he showed subsequently the necessary knowledge and skill, I think the profession would like to be assured that there will be definite limits to the way in which this provision, useful in itself, is exercised.
May I now turn to Clause 8? This is perhaps the most contentious clause in the Bill, and one which we shall have to examine on the Committee stage. Circumstances change so much that it is always difficult for a Government to give firm assurances that will remain firm for ever. We understand this. At the same time, I do not want to go into the merits of the admission of those who are at present licensed to practise (if that is the right expression) in the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals of the Poor. I think there are dangers here, partly that the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals
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of the Poor may themselves spread further into the social strata than they were originally intended to do, and secondly, as the noble Lord said, that those who are admitted to the supplementary register may leave their present employment and go out and practise veterinary surgery in a far wider range of cases than they are at present able to do or that there was ever any intention that they should do. I do not want to go further into this matter, but it is right that one should refer to the difficulties at this stage.
There is one aspect of the Bill to which the noble Lord did not refer, and that is the fact that veterinary surgery is defined in this Bill for the first time. It is sometimes said that the surest way to kill a thing is to define it. There is some feeling in the profession that the definition is not sufficiently wide in scope, in that it covers diagnosis, advice and treatment, both surgical and medical, but does not cover prognosis and preventive medicine, including the control of vaccination and inoculation. One can see the difficulties in a comprehensive definition, but where it is impossible to give a comprehensive definition it is perhaps advisable to refrain from giving a definition at all. Here again is a matter which we can follow up on the Committee stage.
Incidentally, to the layman's eye it seems a little odd that no reference at all is made in the Bill to Home Office licences to the medical profession to carry out operations of a veterinary character. This is a matter which, as I say, occurs to me purely as a layman, and I would commend it to the noble Lord, who has more experience than I have of these matters, to look into before the next stage of the Bill.
There is one other matter I should like to mention and that is the change in appeal arrangements against decisions of the disciplinary body. The existing arrangement is that an appeal is made to the High Court or the Court of Session, and under the Bill it is to be made to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. The noble Lord justified it on two grounds: first of all, this is the appeal procedure in the case of the doctors' and dentists' professions; and, secondly, on the ground of the interests of the Commonwealth. I would just mention this in I passing. Again, I myself should have

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thought that a little further justification for the particular case is required than the noble Lord has yet been able to give, and I think perhaps we should explore this question further.
I would make another point, maybe from the layman's point of view. It is not quite clear why costs should be awarded against the Council, as I understand it, where an appellant wins his appeal, rather than against the public purse. After all, the Council are protecting the interests not only of the profession; in so far as they are protecting the interests of the profession they are also protecting, and more particularly, the interests of the agricultural industry and owners of animals in general. The purpose of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons is to exercise a general control over the profession in the name of the profession itself. It is a self-governing body for the profession which has to deal with very many ethical problems for the profession. And I return to the point from which I began, that I think it is extremely important that it should be representative of the profession. This, I think, is one of the main points that we should like to see dealt with in the later stages of the Bill. With these reservations, I would give a warm welcome to the Bill in principle, and I hope it will go through quickly.
3.15 p.m.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I also give a warm welcome to this Bill. It has taken some time to produce it, and I believe that since the time it was first drafted about 10 per cent. of the veterinary surgeons have come on to the roll. It is not unnatural, therefore, that some of them should be looking a little askance at the agreements made by their elders in the Royal Veterinary College and perhaps also in the British Veterinary Association. I support my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn in his plea for an increase in the number of the United Kingdom elected members. I think it is a pity that we should retain the same proportion as was set up under the 1948 Bill. The veterinary profession has grown considerably in stature since then and has shown itself fully competent to look after its own affairs without as substantial an influx of members from outside the profession.
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I should declare my interest. I was for many years a lecturer in a veterinary college; I was also governor of that college. I watched it integrated into the university, and it is now an independent faculty within the university. So, when I say that over the years the profession has grown considerably in stature I do know what I am talking about. In thinking back to the days of the origin of the veterinary profession, the smithy and the farrier, I would venture to say that to ask the modern veterinary surgeon to shoe a horse is as ridiculous as to ask a medical surgeon to cut your hair. The veterinary profession is as far away from the smithy as the medical profession is from the barber's pole. I welcome Lord Champion's assurance that the Government have no intention of having any increase in the numbers on the supplementary register.
There is one animal, or species or class of animal, for which I would make a special plea for consideration of its inclusion in the Bill. That is, fishes. Fishes are excluded. There are more and more fishes being kept in the United Kingdom as pets. They are tropical fish, and veterinary surgeons are called in to look after them. I would suggest that this Bill might be made a little more forward-looking and it could at the same time be made considerably tidier in its expression, because if we now included fishes—as fishes will be included sooner or later within the next twenty years; the next Bill will certainiy include them—all we should have to say is "all vertebrates", which is a very clear and precise definition.
Finally, I would refer to Schedule 3 to the Bill, which is extraordinary as it stands at the moment, dealing with the treatments and operations which may be given or carried out by unqualified persons. I welcome Lord Champion's assurance that there is going to be an opportunity to discuss this matter at a later stage, and I hope he will be able to elucidate the second paragraph of Part I of that Schedule, which is an extremely obscure and foggy statement that, as I understand it, has merely been copied down from a previous Act. I hope that some attention will be given to the question of an unauthorised person, say an agricultural person, spaying a pig. There are very few people now alive who even know what it is to

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spay a pig. I have asked several veterinary surgeons of the younger generation if they have ever spayed a pig, and they hold up their hands in horror and hope they will never be asked to do so.
This Bill has had a long gestation—five years—and I do ask the Government to bring it right up to date and remove from it all the outdated methods and practices, vestigial though they may be, which seem to have crept into the Bill and survived. I cannot think it is a survival of the fittest at all.
3.20 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I welcome this Bill. On the whole, I think it is most satisfactory and does well what it is intended to do. There are just one or two points that I should like to mention; possibly they will be discussed when we come to the Committee stage. First of all, there is Clause 7, dealing with this matter of temporary registration. I think perhaps it is not widely enough recognised that some foreign qualifications in veterinary surgery are pretty crude, and it may be that for temporary registration in this country people from other countries (I do not want to select one country from another; I think one would have to make a general rule) should have to pass a small examination in order to prove that they were, in fact, capable in their job.
Even more important, I feel, is Clause 8. The people formerly known as licensees, who largely work for the animal welfare societies, and so on, were allowed to do certain slight operations and procedures on animals, but they were not allowed to undertake anything of a serious nature except under the strict supervision of a qualified veterinary surgeon. But now, according to this Bill, they are to have a register of their own, and they are to be known as "veterinary practitioners". Any member of the public passing a gate and seeing displayed on it a brass plate with the words "So-and-so, registered veterinary practitioner", is not, on the whole, going to be knowledgeable enough to realise that that person is quite different from a qualified veterinary surgeon. Therefore, either such people should be made to pass an examination before holding that title, or we should dispense with the supplementary register altogether and let them remain as they
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are at present, licensees. I think it is going to be difficult for the public to distinguish between the one and the other if they are simply going to be known as "practitioners". Moreover, as other noble Lords have said, under this clause as it stands, such people may practise a great deal more widely than, as licensees, they have done up to date.
Schedule 3, which was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Balerno, is, on the whole, fairly satisfactory, though I personally should like to see it tightened up a little. One has to realise that on the large majority of farms there is somebody who has quite a good knowledge of veterinary practice, and who is capable of performing the operations satisfactorily and, largely, painlessly. But I have known of a good many cases where an operation has been quite crudely carried out. There should he some safeguard against that. I certainly agree with my noble friend that the second paragraph in Part I is much too vague, and I hope that we may be able to amend it when we get to the Committee stage. Apart from these points, I am pleased with the Bill.
I should like to end by saying that the anti-vivisection societies are keen that there should be some examination, and that natural methods should be used, rather than recourse to drugs and so on. I cannot say that I can give that view wholehearted support. I think it desirable, but there is no doubt that drugs, which have been discovered by the method of vivisection (which is not a process that I like, but which I realise is necessary in some cases) have done an immense amount of good. Therefore, I am not going to press that any provision of this kind should be included in the Bill. Nevertheless, it might be a good thing to draw the attention of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to the fact that there is widely held the opinion that where possible, natural methods are preferable to the use of artificial drugs. Apart from that, I should like to thank the Government for having introduced this Bill, which I think will do a great deal of good.
3.27 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, I, too, should like to welcome this Bill. There were a few matters upon which I had doubts before I came to this

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debate. Many of them have been cleared up; in particular, the careful and painstaking explanation which one always expects, and receives, from the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has helped me considerably. Nevertheless, there are a few doubts in some branches of the B.V.A., chiefly in regard to Clause 8, which I find confusing. Clause 2 refers to four lists, but a little later on in the Bill one finds another list, which is not mentioned at all, but which is called "the supplementary" list. That is a little confusing when one is first going through a Bill.
So far as Clause 8 is concerned, I agree with all that has been said. But I thought that the Minister said—perhaps I heard him wrongly—that one of the reasons for altering the licensing of veterinary practitioners was that there are now plenty of veterinary surgeons. If he did say that, I am afraid that I strongly disagree with him so far as Scotland is concerned. If he did not, I apologise for my bad hearing.
The only other point that has been brought into question—and I am glad to hear that this will be considered in Committee—arises on Schedule 3, concerning the things which people are allowed to do. The list is fairly open. It seems to me extraordinary that there is no limit, of age or anything, in the paragraph on castration. I know that this is covered by another Act, but all the other paragraphs on similar operations contain riders about the age of the animal and so on; and I should have thought that it should be so also in this respect.
There is one omission, concerning the de-horning by the electrical method of calves when they are a few days old, to which I would refer. Surely a farmer should be allowed to do that, as I think he does anyway. What is really extraordinary is the matters which are excluded. As this Bill reads at the moment, an unqualified man may castrate a stallion of up to the age of two years. Either that means admitting that unqualified men can give an anæsthetic, or that the Bill does not state that an anæsthetic is necessary at all. It is this sort of confusion and small points like these in this Bill, which I think should be taken up.
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I would also point out that since the business of the House started this afternoon just over 20 calves have died. Throughout the year calves die, as a result of preventable diseases, at the rate of one every two minutes. It would not be right at present to say that the situation in regard to the number of vets is satisfactory, when there is as yet no preventive medicine to fight against "the staggers" (it has a technical name which I cannot remember) or "the scours" from which calves, once infected, die, as we have experienced in Scotland this year. At the moment vets are unable to cure "the scours", and many millions of pounds are thereby lost to agriculture, so there should not be any complacency about the number of vets. Apart from drawing attention to these few points, I agree with other noble Lords that this is a good Bill.
3.30 p.m.
LORD HILTON OF UPTON: My Lords, I should like in a few brief words to welcome the Bill from this side of the House, and to congratulate my noble friend for his clear exposition of its contents. I am sure that he made its provisions plain to all Members of the House. No doubt the Bill will be gone through very closely in its Committee stage, so I do not intend to take up much time of the House this afternoon.
I should merely like to make brief reference to Schedule 3 and those parts of the Bill which were referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Balerno and Lord Somers. Part I of Schedule 3 is headed "Treatment and Operations which may be Given or Carried Out by Unqualified Persons", and in line 41 we see:
"The performance by any person of or over the age of eighteen of any of the following operations…"
I would comment that eighteen is a very young age at which to undertake some of these operations. The phrase "by any person" appears to me to be a strange one. I do not intend to press this point now, but I would reiterate what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Somers, about the crude way in which some laymen carry out these jobs. I remember, as a boy on a farm, seeing the crude methods used by the very good old farmers in those days. We must be on our guard in these matters, and I hope that before the Bill is finalised the

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Minister may agree that operations of this kind should be carried out by youngsters only under the strict supervision of veterinary surgeons. With these few remarks, I repeat that I give the Bill a welcome; I am sure it is overdue, and I am sure, too, that it will be of benefit to the agricultural industry.
3.35 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I am sure that no Minister in introducing a Bill could be anything but wholly satisfied with the welcome which has been given to this Bill. Practically every point which has been raised during this debate has been, inevitably, a Committee point. Everybody has warned me that points will be raised on Committee stage. I am grateful to know this, as it is as well to have advance notice of these points. I hope that when the time comes I shall be well aware of what will be raised and have the answers ready in those cases where I do not propose to accept an Amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, raised the matter of temporary registration in Clause 7. The noble Lord said that it was satisfactory as far as it went, but he felt that it might provide a loophole in allowing permanent practice by people who ought not to be allowed to be in permanent practice. The conditions under which they are allowed to practise in this country will be wholly a matter for the Council of the Royal College, which not only has the task of safeguarding the profession—and clearly it will have regard to the welfare of the profession—but also seeks to safeguard the welfare of the animals of this country generally. I do not think there is any danger here, but we might have to discuss this question again.
Clause 8 was mentioned by a number of noble Lords, and we understand the fears which exist. The clause was decided upon after considerable negotiations between the P.D.S.A. and the Royal College, and subsequently the agreement which was entered into by the P.D.S.A. and the Royal College was agreed upon and accepted entirely by the British Veterinary Association. It is true, as Lord Balerno said, that some 10 per cent. of the profession have come into it since the date of the original agreement. Doubts have been expressed, and I can understand them, but I must not go too far in support of this. The fact is that an
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agreement was arrived at, it was supported by the British Veterinary Association, and as recently as last week it was again agreed to, as is to be seen from the current issue of the Veterinary Record.
The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, mentioned Clause 27 and dealt with the matter of interpretation. This is a difficult matter, and we shall no doubt return to it at a later stage. When I first looked at the matter, I felt that it would be better not to widen the interpretation, but, as I have said, we shall be looking at this again.
The point made about the Home Office was entirely new to me, despite the fact that I have taken a considerable interest in veterinary surgeons in the past, partly as the result of having chaired a committee which made a recommendation which has some relation to Clause 8 of the Bill. I must confess that I did not know that the Home Office came into this matter. I will look it up, and will be prepared to give an answer, if necessary, on Committee stage.
With regard to the matter of an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and the possibility of costs being given against the Council in a successful appeal, this is a matter which we shall have to look at. Where there has been a successful appeal against the Council, I should think it right that the costs should be borne by the Council. It would surely be unusual, if on appeal the Council were found to have reached a wrong decision, that the Council could escape the consequences and pass them on to the general taxpayer. Perhaps the noble Lord will consider this matter further.
The noble Lord, Lord Balerno, spoke from an exceptional knowledge of this Bill and its background. He said, "I know what I am talking about", and a voice behind me said, "It is rather unusual that a noble Lord should know what he is talking about!". I would not accept that, because noble Lords in this House do know what they are talking about. This raises the standard of debate in this House to a height which I sometimes did not experience in another place. However, it is not my object to continue on those lines this afternoon.
The noble Lord, Lord Balerno, referred to the exclusion of fishes, and

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rather suggested that the definition should include all vertebrates. To some extent, we feel that we ought not to agree here to what appears to us to be a take-over bid by the vets, a take-over from the fish scientists, and we feel that there is at present no justification for a change here. But, undoubtedly, the noble Lord will return to this point on the Committee stage. I agree with him that there is perhaps a need to elucidate paragraph 2 of Schedule 3, which is a difficult one, and my noble friend Lord Hilton of Upton referred to this in his remarks. There is some obscurity here which perhaps we might clear up at a later stage. Unless I am very much mistaken, this has been lifted completely out of previous Bills, but it is not necessarily right that we should continue it in this Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Somers, referred to some of the qualifications of people who might be over here on a temporary register, practising veterinary surgery in this country. It will be for the Council of the Royal College to ensure that persons who have what he called a crude knowledge, or a crude qualification, do not in fact practise in this country. It will be their job to ensure that nothing of the sort takes place. Clause 8, to which he and most other noble Lords referred, is a matter to which we must return on another occasion. The fact is, of course, that those licensees will not be quite on a register of their own: they will be on a register which was set up by the Act of 1948. This supplementary register will be the register upon which people were able to get in 1948, if they had practised some form of veterinary surgery—without being able to use the name—for ten years prior to 1948. So it will not be an exclusive list.
As to the use of natural methods, I have had sent to me a document on this matter which I shall have to consider, and which I imagine is the same as the noble Lord has received. The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, in particular, apart from the other points to which I have already in part replied, said that he could not agree with me that there were plenty of veterinary surgeons.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: In Scotland.
LORD CHAMPION: I did not put it in quite those terms. But we did have the Report of the Northumberland Committee, whose specific task was to look into this aspect. They reported that they were satisfied that there would be sufficient for the purpose, which would justify the ending of Section 7 of the 1948 Act. That is the position in regard to the licensees. I agree with the noble Viscount that there is some doubt about this, and in some parts of the country, perhaps, there may not be so many. But I do not imagine that there are many licensees operating in that part of Scotland where there are not enough veterinary surgeons. At any rate, the Northumberland Committee have told us that there will be sufficient, and we have had to accept their assurance on this point.
On the de-horning of calves, Schedule 3 is at present being negotiated with the people concerned, including the National Farmers' Union. We might not be able to complete the whole of our negotiations before this Bill becomes an Act, but we are hoping to be able to amend Schedule 3 by an Order to be laid before the House. We think that might be the best method of dealing with this. This applies, too, to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Hilton of Upton. I hope I have dealt with the major points which have been raised in this debate, and I look forward very much to the Committee stage of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ABORTION BILL [H.L.]
3.45 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now resolve itself into Committee on the said Bill. It is, perhaps, unusual for anything to be said on a Motion of this kind, but the circumstances are somewhat exceptional and I hope the House will forgive me if I just say a few words by way of introduction.
The House will remember that on November 30, when we had the Second Reading, this Bill was discussed at considerable length and met with a good

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deal of criticism in detail. There was a certain amount of opposition to the Bill, but I think that the House was prepared to accept it, although a number of matters did not commend themselves to the House at that time. I promised the House that, if it gave the Bill a Second Reading, I would endeavour to seek agreement with the principal critics, and if possible to introduce a new Bill as an agreed Bill. I have met the chief critics: the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, on several occasions; the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter; I have had correspondence with the noble Lord, Lord Brain I have had the advantage of meeting representatives of the Churches, and of reading their Report; I have seen the British Medical Association and have had a good deal of correspondence with them, in addition; and I have met a great number of other people. As a result of all this, I decided, after consultation with the noble and learned Viscount and others, that the best course was not to try to inroduce a new Bill, which would not be an agreed Bill in any case, but to try to amend the existing Bill by way of Amendments.
I realise that the Amendments are pretty drastic. I realise, also, that on a previous occasion some years ago, when this fate befell somebody else who had introduced a Private Member's Bill, I myself was very critical of the moving of a large number of Amendments to a Bill in such a way as virtually to make it a new Bill. I do not think this is a new Bill. I think its basis stands. In one or two respects I have altered the Bill, but fundamentally the principles of the Bill as originally introduced are retained in the Amendments. I will say this in extenuation. While the question of abortion is a vital subject and, to my astonishment, has aroused tremendous interest throughout the country, nevertheless, to my knowledge, it has never been discussed in this House before and very little in another place. Therefore, the reaction of noble Lords to a Bill of this kind was quite uncertain.
I decided that I would introduce the Bill in virtually the form in which it was introduced and, I think, rejected some years ago in another place. I thought that was the best course, so that I might discover what was the reaction of noble Lords to various points in the Bill. I had that advantage. Noble Lords were
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very frank and critical, and I have tried to meet by way of amendment such criticisms as I agree to, and in the language in certain respects of some of my critics. For instance, a number of provisions in my Amendments are exactly in the form of the Report of the Churches' Commission, and I hope that they will be prepared to accept them. There are others which are in the form which the noble and learned Viscount drafted, and I am sure he will accept those for which he is partly responsible. There are others for which I myself have to take full responsibility. Finally, I say, quite frankly, that I am not satisfied even not with the drafting of the Bill. I am not a Parliamentary draftsman, and the more I look at the Bill the more I realise that there are drafting defects. I am hoping that, once we have got the Committee stage through, I may have some help from experienced Parliamentary draftsmen to enable me to put up a better show before the Report stage. I hope the Committee will be prepared to give the principles of my Amendments full support.
Now I think it may be for the convenience of the House if I state what I have in mind so far as the timetable is concerned. I hope we may succeed in getting Clause 1 of the Bill through this evening, but the last thing I want to do is to curtail discussion; and, whether we do or not, I would propose to ask the Committee to postpone discussion at 7.30, or as near to that time as possible—that is, if I can bear up until then. If I find I am thoroughly exhausted as a result of the discussion, I hope the Committee will not mind my asking for a postponement before that time; but I will do my best. However, your Lordships may take it that it will not be later than 7.30. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Silkin.)
3.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, it is unusual to have anything in the form of a debate on this particular Motion, but I am sure the House is grateful to the noble Lord for the explanation he has given. He started, I thought, by trying to erect a shield in case he was attacked, or in case observations which he had made on a previous Bill were thrown

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at him. I, for one, would be the last to complain that he had taken steps to improve a measure which was justly criticised to a very great degree—and not only on matters of detail—in the course of the Second Reading. The Amendments are, as the noble Lord has said, pretty drastic. I do not think there is any clause in this Bill which, if the Amendments are carried, will not be changed; but I for one do not regret that, and I shall not myself criticise the noble Lord for seeking your Lordships' agreement to the making of drastic changes in this particular measure.
I do not agree with him when he says that what we shall see if these Amendments are carried will not be a new Bill. It will be a very different Bill from the Bill he introduced, but it will at least be somewhat better—and I hope that in the course of the Committee stage, when we shall have some interesting questions to debate, we shall succeed in making it better still. I am one of those who want to see a Bill on this subject, a proper Bill, on the Statute Book, and I therefore do not propose to take up any more time by saying anything further upon this Motion.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Termination of pregnancy by registered medical practitioner]:
3.54 p.m.
LORD SILKTN LORD SILKTN moved to leave out Clause 1 and insert the following new clause:
Medical termination of pregnancy
"Subject to the Provisions of this Act it shall be lawful for a registered medical practitioner, after obtaining a concurring opinion from a second registered medical practitioner, to terminate a pregnancy:
Provided that such two registered medical practitioners certify in writing that in their opinion the termination of the pregnancy is necessary on the ground that—

(a) the continuance of the pregnancy would involve serious risk to the life or grave injury to the health whether physical or mental of the pregnant woman whether before at or after the birth of the child; or

(b) the child if born would be likely to suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to deprive it of any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life; or

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(c) the pregnant woman is or will be physically or mentally inadequate to be the mother of a child or of another child as the case may be; or

(d) the pregnant woman is a defective or became pregnant when under the age of sixteen or as the result of rape or of intercourse which was an offence under section 128 of the Mental Health Act 1959 or section 97 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960 (relating to sexual intercourse with patients)."

The noble Lord said: I beg to move the first Amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper, which is to leave out Clause 1 and insert an entirely new clause. There are a number of Amendments to this which we shall be dealing with in due course, and I therefore do not think that the Committee will expect me to go into this new clause in great detail. I would just summarise what I think we are doing and what are the changes that have been made here as compared with the provisions of the previous Bill.
The Bill, as it was introduced, provided that an abortion could take place after certification by one registered medical practitioner. The new clause provides that there must be two registered medical practitioners who should certify that, in their opinion, the termination of the pregnancy is necessary. There will be some criticism, I think, of the fact that there is no description of the kind of medical practitioner who should be able to certify for this purpose. I know there is the idea that there would be a possibility of abuse if the two medical practitioners happened to be partners, or people who rather specialised in this kind of work and were seeking to become known as practitioners who would be fairly easy in giving certificates, carrying out abortions, and so on. It has been suggested that there should be some limitation or restriction on the kind of medical practitioner who should carry out the abortion; and the noble and learned Viscount has an Amendment on that point which will be considered in due course. While I would agree with him that some amendment is necessary, I am not very happy about the language of his Amendment, even; but we shall come to that.
The grounds upon which an abortion can take place are set out in the remainder of the clause under paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d). Paragraph (a) is

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generally accepted, I think. That is where the life or health, mental or physical, of the expectant mother is endangered. There is certainly no Amendment to paragraph (a), and I think we might generally accept that—subject, of course, to the possibility that, even there, the language migh conceivably be improved. Paragraph (b) is, I admit, controversial. It is on the ground that
"the child if born would be likely to suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to deprive it of any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life;…"
There is an Amendment by the right reverend Prelate to delete that paragraph, and we shall have a discussion on it. At this stage I do not think I need say more about it—the provision speaks for itself—except that the language is by agreement with the noble and learned Viscount, for I think that, in paragraph (b), I have adopted the language which he himself used.
The ground set out in paragraph (c) is:
"the pregnant woman is or will be physically or mentally inadequate to be the mother of a child or of another child as the case may be;…"
That, I know, will be criticised, partly because of the language, partly because it will be alleged to be vague and covered by other provisions and partly by the fact that it is an unreasonable extension of the justification for an abortion. There again, at this stage I think I had better leave it at that, and we shall have a discussion on whether a provision of this kind is justifiable or not. I will say at once that I myself am not happy about the actual wording—as to the pregnant woman being
"inadequate to be the mother of a child."
and I am hoping very much that if this clause is acceptable to the Committee in principle, I may get some help in drafting something that will be more satisfactory.
The last of the four justifications for abortion is:
"the pregnant woman is a defective or became pregnant when under the age of six-teen…"—
that, I recognise, is highly controversial—
"or as the result of rape,"—
that is also controversial—
"or of intercourse which was an offence under…the Mental Health Act…",
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and so on. There are Amendments on that. Again, I look forward to a very interesting discussion in which I recognise that I shall have fully to justify abortions on the various grounds which are being criticised. I do not think I need say much more in support of the clause at this stage. I look forward to a helpful discussion in due course. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 1 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Silkin.)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): I should point out to the Committee that Amendments to proposed Amendments are taken after the original Amendment has been moved and the Question put for the first time. After such Amendments to an Amendment have been disposed of, the debate on the original Amendment is resumed.
4.2 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE VISCOUNT DILHORNE moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, to leave out "after obtaining a concurring opinion from a second registered medical practitioner". The noble and learned Viscount said: I think it would be to the convenience of the Committee to consider Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4 together because Amendments 2 and 3 are paving Amendments to No. 4. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has made some observations about the content of his new Clause 1. I agree with him in thinking that that clause is a very considerable improvement in more than one respect upon the clause in his Bill, but it still has blemishes and defects which we shall do our best to correct.
Under the original Bill it was left to one doctor to decide whether or not the operation should be performed if he decided that the grounds existed that would make the performance of the operation lawful. On the Amendments that I am about to move we are not considering what are the grounds for termination; we are concerned with the system, the procedure, that should be followed. And if we want to prevent abuse, whatever ground we may decide upon, this procedure is in my view of paramount importance. I think it was going too far to suggest that this operation, which may be fraught with serious consequences for the pregnant woman, should take place on the opinion of one doctor only. This

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was going too far. It is an improvement, under the new clause moved by the noble Lord, that the operation will be lawful only if performed on the certificate of two doctors.
However, I do not think that that improvement goes far enough. I think that one of the two doctors whose opinion should normally be required—I I say "normally" because there may be reasons why he is not prepared to give the certificate which the woman requires—should be the woman's regular doctor; for he is very much more likely to know about her health, her home life and the conditions in which she is living than is any other doctor whom she may go to see, perhaps for the first time, when pregnant. Her regular doctor will be in a good position to judge of the effect on her health during pregnancy and after pregnancy taking into account all the relevant circumstances.
Here I would, if I might, correct something that the noble Lord said just now in relation to paragraph (a). If one compares the wording of paragraph (a) of the original Bill with the paragraph of this new clause, one sees that it has been changed in material respects. The new clause makes it clear that regard must be had to the health of the pregnant woman
"before at or after the birth of the child ".
I do not think there was any reference in the original paragraph (a) to "after the birth of the child". I mention that in passing. The point I want to make is that normally one would have thought the woman's regular doctor would be in the best position to express an opinion on these matters and to give a certificate. Therefore, I think it is important to stipulate that one of the two doctors whose certificate is required to make the operation lawful must be the woman's regular doctor; and, if the woman's regular doctor is not prepared to certify, that. I should have thought, should be regarded as a fact of some significance by any other doctors who are asked by her to give a certificate—unless it was apparent that the refusal of the certificate was simply made because her regular doctor had a rooted objection, on principle, to any form of termination.
So, because there may be cases where the woman's regular doctor is not pre
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pared to certify—not because he is of the opinion that one of the grounds laid down in the Bill does not exist; but because he has a rooted objection to abortion in any circumstances—it would he wrong to prescribe that in every case there must be the certificate of the woman's regular doctor and a certificate of another doctor employed in a National Health Service hospital. Therefore, in the Amendments I have tabled I have provided that the certificates required must either be the certificate of the woman's regular doctor and of a doctor employed in a National Health Service hospital, or certificates of two doctors employed in a National Health Service hospital. If these Amendments are accepted, as I hope they will be, the operation will he lawful on the production of certificates from such doctors.
It has been suggested to me that it would be preferable to say "on the staff of the hospital" rather than "employed in" the hospital under the National Health Service. Well, I have no strong views upon that. By the words I used I certainly meant on the staff of the hospital. But I would not wish to limit it to those employed whole-time on the staff. I hope I have said enough to make it clear what I am seeking to achieve by these Amendments. If after careful consideration by both Houses of Parliament this Bill, in one form or another, reaches the Statute Book—and, if my Amendments are accepted, I hope it will—it would be unfortunate if there were a door left open to abuses.
There was an interesting article in last week's Observer telling of what happened in an Aberdeen hospital under the law of Scotland. It said that, in consequence of the abortions performed in the hospital, the back-street and highly dangerous operations which we all deplore had substantially diminished. I am sure that we all hope that that will be the result of this Bill; but, just to leave it to any two doctors to certify, as does the noble Lord's new clause, seems to me to leave open an undesirable possibility of abuse. There are black sheep in every profession—the legal profession, the medical profession, and in other professions. I should not like to see two doctors setting up in practice together just to perform abortions; and that is what could happen under the

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new clause moved by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, if these Amendments were not accepted. It could not happen, or at least it would be most unlikely to happen, if the certificates had to be given by the regular doctor and a hospital doctor, or by two hospital doctors.
There is also this to be borne in mind; and I suggest that it is a matter of some importance. If the procedure envisaged under this new clause is followed, there will be no chance of a prosecution for the performance of an illegal operation. If two doctors certified that one of the grounds specified existed, and that the operation was necessary, there could be no prosecution unless the prosecution could establish that the certificates were false; that, for instance, they did not express the opinion of the doctors. I find it almost impossible to envisage a case in which the prosecution would be in a position to prove that the doctors in question had falsely stated their opinions. It seems to me to follow that at least one of the two certificates must be signed by someone holding a responsible position in the National Health Service. And in some cases the two certificates would he so signed. I hope that I have made the object of these Amendments clear. I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Line 2, leave out from ("practitioner") to ("to") in line 3.—(Viscount Dilhorne.)
4.12 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I feel it only right and proper that I should tell the Committee that I have already warned my noble friend that I proposed to follow the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, and in substance support what he has said, although I hope that he will also he guided by me on some of the detail. My noble friend's new clause provides that certificates should be given by two registered medical practitioners. In my opinion, this is a great improvement on the original provision, which gave the right to one medical practitioner to terminate a pregnancy without further consultation. I ask my noble friend to strengthen his provision, because I believe that the service given to these women at such a time is of such vital importance that the whole future of the Bill may hinge upon it.
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I wish my noble friend would consider making it compulsory that at least one doctor should be a surgeon with gynecological experience who is in contract with a hospital. At the same time, I would ask the noble and learned Viscount to reconsider the wording of his Amendment, which simply specifies
"a registered medical practitioner employed in a hospital."
This could mean a clinical assistant who also could be a general practitioner who had been invited from outside the hospital to come and help a hospital staff subject to great pressure. Therefore, if the noble and learned Viscount simply asks for a doctor who is employed in a hospital, I think that he may be defeating the object he has in mind.
Furthermore, I believe that the doctor who supports the general practitioner should have specialised knowledge of surgery, preferably gynæcological surgery. May I briefly describe the procedure in order to emphasise my case? Let us assume that this Bill reaches the Statute Rook. A woman may then ask her National Health Service doctor for an abortion under the new Act. For conscientious reasons, the doctor may refuse; indeed, it seems that if he is a Catholic, he will certainly refuse, and has every right to do so. But the expectant mother has every right to ask for consideration of her case under the Act, and as a patient of the National Health Service. If the doctor feels that he cannot reconcile his conscience with his Hippocratic Oath, he can send the woman to another doctor.
Let us be realistic. Being paid on a capitation basis in a small town, a doctor may be reluctant to send a patient to another doctor, and he may delay doing so. I need not remind those of your Lordships who have followed the progress of the Bill throughout that a delay of a week or two in taking a decision may result in a woman being denied the chance of an abortion. Furthermore, if the doctor says that he will send the woman to a neighbouring practitioner, and asks her to remain on his list (which would be quite understandable) the woman will have to be treated as a private patient and pay a fee. Let us remember that throughout this debate we are talking not about wealthy women, but about poor women who generally live in rather distressing circumstances.

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In a town with a large Catholic population, the doctor to whom a woman goes as a private patient will, in his turn, have to seek a second doctor, which may prove difficult. All these difficulties could be resolved, and the woman's doctor would be able to reconcile his religious scruples with his professional principles, if the woman were sent to a surgeon with gynecological experience at her local hospital. The surgeon could obtain a second opinion from a colleague, and the woman could be admitted to undergo an operation in the best possible circumstances.
I come now to the case where the woman's general practitioner has no conscientious scruples, where he agrees that an operation is necessary, and finds a neighbouring practitioner who concurs. I will not emphasise the important point about collusion made by my noble friend, which was also made by the noble and learned Viscount. Two general practitioners having agreed, where is the operation to be performed? Only last week the Minister of Health said that because surgeries like slum properties existed he was prepared to finance new buildings. Is the operation to be performed in a place where there are no facilities? The average general practitioner is not an expert. He will not have procured an abortion before. In his professional life he may have been asked a thousand times to procure an abortion, but he would know that if he did so, although he may think it just, he would run the risk of being struck off the Register. Therefore, the general practitioners we are talking about will have had no experience, and will procure abortions in their surgeries only when this Bill is on the Statute Book and becomes law.
Where else can this be done? In the woman's home? Let us be realistic. We are dealing with a tragic problem which in the past has had certain squalid features. It was not unusual for back-street abortions to be performed in the home on the kitchen table. Where else could they be done? We are talking about homes with two or three rooms, which are already overcrowded, and where there are no facilities for an abortion to be done. It is no good noble Lords thinking that all that general practitioners would have to do would be to telephone a hospital and say that the
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operation had to be done there. Two general practitioners cannot direct a surgeon to perform any operation. A surgeon is not a carpenter or a plumber. It would not be possible in every area to telephone a hospital and earmark a bed. The opinion of a surgeon must be sought. He will then be prepared to perform an operation and to provide a bed for the patient, where she is able to stay for, I hope, at least two days. I would emphasise that point, because if it is done in a surgery, does she walk home or is an ambulance forthcoming? We are seeking to eliminate the back-street abortion. It is essential that women should be given the best treatment in hospital, the kind of treatment that any other patient has.
There is another argument for this procedure, which every harassed general practitioner will appreciate. He will not be subject to undue pressure from women who are not strictly eligible for abortion under the Act. If he can refer them to an independent doctor at a hospital, he will not have his livelihood threatened—because the present capitation basis, which I hate, means that before a poor doctor offends the patient, he has to consider his livelihood. He should be free to say to a patient, who has every right to ask about abortion, that he would like a second opinion and that she should go to hospital and see a gynæcologist. The same point, of course, applies in regard to doctors who are asked by their patients for expensive proprietary drugs. We must not expose doctors to a new form of pressure. Finally, I would say to my noble friend Lord Silkin, with the utmost sincerity: if we do not provide conditions which are safe for the mother and acceptable to the medical profession, this Bill could fail to achieve its purpose.
4.22 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I hope it will be for the convenience of the Committee if, before speaking to the Amendment now under consideration, I indicate the Government's general approach to the Committee stage of the Bill. Your Lordships will recall that, on Second Reading, I made it clear that the Government were neutral on issues of principle raised by the Bill, and members of the Government are free to vote as they wish. That remains the position. But the Government

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recognise that your Lordships' House, by its decisive vote on Second Reading, has shown itself, in principle, in favour of some amendment to the law on abortion. In view of this, the Government are prepared to advise on the practicability of a particular Amendment, although this will not necessarily imply that the Government consider the Amendment desirable.
In reply to the question of my noble friend Lord Silkin, we are also prepared, as in the case of the Sexual Offences Bill, introduced by the noble Earl, Lord Arran, to make available the services of Parliamentary Counsel to look at any Amendments accepted by the House in Committee, and, if necessary, to put them by the Report Stage in a proper form to give effect to the expressed wishes of the House. It occurs to me that there may be parts of clauses of the Bill which meet general approval, whereas the whole of a clause or subsection may not, and our offer with regard to drafting covers any of these contingencies. I shall refrain from comment on matters of principle, whilst giving whatever assistance I can on matters of fact, feasibility, and the practical application of the proposals your Lordships have under consideration.
This leads me to say at once that, in the view of the Government, neither the Amendment which Lord Dilhorne has moved, nor Lord Silkin's proposal, which he seeks to amend, would leave us in a satisfactory position, because neither Amendment fulfils what we regard as four essential safeguards. The first is the need for two concurring opinions. That is provided for in both Amendments. The second is that the doctor must act in good faith. That is provided in neither Amendment. The third is that there should be a certificate, which is provided in both Amendments. And the fourth is—and I was delighted to listen to the speech of my noble friend Lady Summer-skill, who dealt with this—that operations of this kind must, in the view of the Government, be performed in a hospital or a registered nursing home with the necessary facilities. We propose to consult my noble friend Lord Silkin about this matter and at a subsequent stage to assist in making the necessary provisions.
I think that I should comment on what the noble and learned Viscount had to say with regard to National Health Ser-
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vice doctors. Of course, they include those who are part-time hospital doctors and those who have substantial- private practices as consultants. Therefore, in our view, the safeguard he has mentioned does not cover the whole point satisfactorily. Let me take the first point, about adequate safeguards against certificates being issued in bad faith—for example, on a mere pretence that one of the statutory grounds had been satisfied, Lord Silkin's new clause would make it lawful for a pregnancy to be terminated if two doctors certified that this was necessary. The effect of this would make the legality of the abortion dependent on the issue of the two certificates, and if these were available it would seldom, if ever, I am advised, be possible to challenge the grounds on which the certificates were issued, because in law they are virtually unchallengeable. I gladly acknowlege what we all know to be true, that the overwhelming majority of doctors treat the subject of abortion according to the highest: standards of professional conduct; but that makes it the more necessary not to leave a wide open door for the tiny minority who do not.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Would the noble Lord be good enough to explain to me how it makes it more easy to challenge them if we insert the words "in good faith"? Without those words in the Bill, if we can show that the certificates are false, a prosecution can be made. We cannot prosecute if we put in the words "in good faith", unless we can show that the certificates are also false. So the addition of these words will add nothing. I think the Home Office ought to think again about this matter.
LORD STONHAM: Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will wait until I have developed the argument. Then, if he is still of the same opinion, it would be a matter of discussion at a later stage. It would be more helpful if I completed the whole argument. I was making the point, with which the noble and learned Viscount agrees, that it would be wrong to leave a wide open door for the tiny minority of doctors who do not observe the best standards of professional conduct in this matter. Whatever the final version of the Bill, in essence it will say that abortion should be permissible only on certain carefully specified grounds; and

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if that is Parliament's intention, it is imperative that there should be adequate means of checking the claim that an abortion was performed on one or other of those grounds.
Your Lordships will recall that my noble friend's original Bill, which we considered on Second Reading, refers to a pregnancy being terminated by the doctor "in good faith" that one of the specified grounds made the operation necessary. We think that the words "in good faith" should be retained, because the absence of good faith—for example, where there were no grounds for believing the operation was necessary under the terms of the clause—would enable a prosecution to be mounted. Of course we should also still want, as Lord Silkin proposes, the requirement of a concurring opinion from another doctor and certificates from both doctors—but neither these words nor the alternative proposed by Lord Dilhorne would provide us with a real case for prosecution when doctors acted in bad faith.
Another question which arises from this matter is that the present Bill provides that where a doctor is prosecuted the onus of proof that he did not act in good faith rests on the Crown. In discussion I suggested—and I believe the noble and learned Viscount concurred—that this was too onerous a burden. My noble friend Lord Silkin has now avoided this problem by the form of his present Amendment, and he proposes at a later stage to move an Amendment to leave out the present clause on onus of proof. The Government would not wish to object to the onus of proof resting on the Crown if a certificate from both doctors and notification are required, because the prosecution would then have advance notice of the grounds on which it was alleged the abortion had been performed, and if there was failure to notify, even after criminal proceedings had been started, that could be evidence on which the prosecution might rely to establish that there was not good faith.
There are several other similar and related points which we have under consideration, and obviously we must reserve the right to consider the whole problem further; and Parliamentary Counsel will also need to consider the precise relationship between the present proposals and
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Section 58 of the Offences Against the Person Act. Meanwhile, the Government agree that, if it is found necessary, the Bill should deal expressly with onus of proof. This point can be considered with the others I have mentioned with the redrafting of the whole of Clause 1 after your Lordships have revised it.
In the Government's view, it is also necessary, as I mentioned earlier, to make some provision as to the place at which termination of pregnancy may be carried out, because, as my noble friend Lady Summerskill mentioned and as we all know, this is an operation entailing some risk—and perhaps a good deal of risk—to the woman, and it is surely essential that it should be carried out either in a hospital or a registered nursing home which has the necessary facilities. When we reconsider this matter we can take account of Lord Silkin's point about the need for a properly qualified surgeon to perform the operation; and if the woman goes to hospital, obviously she will have the necessary stay according to her condition after the operation. This is in accord with the views of the British Medical Association, and before the Report stage we should like to consider how it might be implemented.
May I now deal briefly with the particular issue of the choice between Lord Silkin's proposal, that the certificate should be signed by the doctor who performs the operation and one other and Lord Dilhorne's alternative suggesttion, by the woman's own doctor plus the hospital doctor or two hospital doctors: and I would point out that in Lord Dilhorne's proposals neither of the two need be the operating doctor. If the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment was accepted, two doctors could certify, neither of whom had anything to do with the operation.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The noble Lord has pointed that out, but I am not sure whether he is saying there is anything wrong with it or not.
LORD STONHAM: That is what I am going to deal with, and that is why I pointed it out. This raises two issues: first, whether the Bill should restrict the medical practitioners who may issue certificates; and secondly, whether the operating doctor should be one of the

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signatories. We appreciate that Lord Dilhorne's proposal—and he made this quite clear—is intended as a safeguard against abuses; against certain doctors who would be ready to provide certificates without asking too many questions; against doctors who might set up in partnership and who, in fact, might almost be prepared to sell certificates. In our view, however, the method proposed by the noble and learned Viscount could exclude doctors whose opinions may be needed and ought to be accepted. For example, when the effect on the mental health of the mother was at issue, a psychiatrist might be needed, and some well-qualified and responsible psychiatrists practise outside the National Health Service.
Safeguards against abuse would be provided, as I have suggested, by the retention in Clause 1 of the requirement as to good faith; by the requirement for notification; and, as I also suggested, by specifying the places at which operations may be performed, all of which I hope your Lordships will agree should be included in the Bill on Report. Meanwhile, the Government are strongly of opinion that no doctor should be expected to carry out this operation unless he himself considers it a wise course to take, and for this reason we agree with my noble friend Lord Silkin that there are good grounds for requiring the doctor who operates to be one of the doctors who certify that the operation is necessary. On this particular matter, subject to the other points that I have made with regard to safeguards, we prefer the method of certification proposed by my noble friend Lord Silkin.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: I wish to add only two things, and that quite briefly. The first is that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, spoke many times about the "patient's regular doctor". It seems to me exceedingly important that this character should be identifiable. I wonder whether at this stage the noble and learned Viscount could tell me how this identification is to be made.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: If the noble Viscount wants me to answer the question now, may I say that I should think that when a woman has a regular doctor she knows who he is, and it is easier for people to find out who that regular doctor
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is. If she has not, then she has the alternative procedure.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: With the greatest respect, where a National Health Service patient is concerned she has the doctor to whom the National Health Service card has been given. But by no means all patients are National Health Service patients. In the part of the country where I practise medicine there are significant numbers of patients who are private patients, who live in the country at week-ends and live in London during the week. They have two private doctors, one in the country and one in London, and they seem to me to be equally ill in both places. I find it difficult, in my capacity as consultant, to find out from either of the two doctors or the patient who is the regular doctor. It is a cause of great difficulty to me in my professional life. It seems to me that this point should be clarified to some extent.
The only other point I want to make is to support strongly the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, about this business of a registered medical practitioner employed in a hospital. There are, as has been said, large numbers of general practitioners who at the moment hold short and not very important part-time contracts for half a session a week, and who could well, if they so wished, act in collusion with any other partners of theirs. I would point out, also, that if the proposal regarding the medical assistant category, which I think is being strongly supported on all sides, is implemented, there will be an even larger number of such general practitioners holding part-time contracts in the hospital but who have nothing whatever to do with decisions about termination of pregnancy. They may be working in the skin department, in the ear, nose and throat department, or in the eye department. They have no qualification, at any rate on that ground alone.
LORD AMULREE: I should like to support what the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said about the location where this not entirely simple operation is to be carried out, and I am pleased to know from the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that this opinion is viewed somewhat sympathetically. All I want to suggest, in supporting in general the

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Amendment moved by the noble and learned Viscount, is that the hospital doctor should be a consultant. Whether we can specify that he should be a consultant—and I certainly do not mean by that that he should be full-time employed in the hospital; that seems unnecessary and it would be difficult to ensure—I do not know, but I certainly think he should be, for the reasons that have been put forward, so that one can be certain that the woman applying for an abortion shall be seen by a person who knows what he is talking about and, if possible, will be the person to perform this operation, which, as I have said before, is not carried out without risk.
4.40 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: Like the noble and learned Viscount, I read Sir Dugald Baird's description of what he had been doing in Aberdeen for many years, and it seemed to me that he was behaving extremely humanely and intelligently. The reason why he was able to behave so humanely and intelligently was because, as the noble and learned Viscount said, he was operating under the laws of Scotland, and they do not have a coroner in Scotland. This is not a joke; it is a serious fact. In Scotland, they have a procurator fiscal, and an inquest does not follow automatically when an abortion leads to death. Inevitably there will be deaths if one introduces widespread abortion, but provided it is done honestly, decently and properly, as Sir Dugald Baird has been doing it for many years, good and well; it is worth while doing it. There will be a tiny risk, but the risk attached to the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is that it will not be done when it ought to be done, rather than the other way round, for the doctors will be frightened, as Sir Dugald Baird was not frightened because he did not have the shadow of the coroner hanging over him all the time.
I entirely agree with almost everything my noble friend Lady Summerskill has said. I think the doctors must be of consultant status. I believe it will usually be two doctors of consultant status, rather than a general practitioner and one consultant, and for this reason. Many of these cases are "scruffy"; they
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are sad, miserable little children who have run away from home, who may have been in trouble with the police authorities, who may have been in borstal, and who may have no general practitioner. More is the pity. They have no settled family life, and thus decisions will have to be made by a consultant physician and an obstetrician, or a consultant physician and psychiatrist, or by such people in hospital. This must be the usual procedure if this is to be humanely done.
LORD AMULREE: May I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment? It was made abundantly clear at Second Reading of this Bill, and it is certainly my experience in the gynæcological department of the hospital in which I work, that the majority of women patients are married women who have had several children and cannot bear the idea of having any more. The poor little thing who is having her first child does not constitute the majority of cases.
LORD TAYLOR: I accept my noble friend's correction at once. He is quite right, of course: the majority are worn-out ladies who have had a large number of children, but the others are the ones who will present the greatest difficulty, and those with whom Sir Dugald Baird was quite prepared to deal. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will accept the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment, but that it will be altered to provide that it will not be just, "employed in a hospital", but "employed as a consultant in a hospital". I do not think it matters whether he is an operating consultant or not, because no operating consultant will do the operation, or allow it to be done, unless he approves. In fact, I can see certain advantages in having two other people, as well as the consultant, agreeing to it.
The point that has exercised me is the place. I am quite sure that it should he done only in a hospital or a nursing home, as my noble friend Lord Stonham says. Indeed, I should be happier if it were done only in a hospital, hut I can see that this might be difficult, and I should be prepared to support the view that it should be a registered nursing home.
LORD STONHAM: If I might make it clear, it would have to be not merely

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a registered nursing home, but one which could satisfy the Minister of Health that it had suitable facilities.
LORD TAYLOR: I am very glad to hear that it would have to be a registered and approved nursing home. Given those two assurances, and given one or two doctors of consultant status, plus the general practitioner or a second consultant, I can see no objection to this at all. It seems to me to be a thoroughly sensible idea. I hope very much that my noble friend Lord Stonham and the Government will not feel that psychiatrists outside the National Health Service must be included. I think this would be open to very great abuse. A reputable psychiatrist within the National Health Service could always he obtained, and it would be a temptation which should not be put in the way of some of us who might not be able to withstand it.
LORD SEGAL: I am afraid that I intervene in this debate under the disadvantage of not having had the opportunity of listening to the whole of the debate as it has progressed so far. I rise simply to question one or two remarks that I have heard since I entered the Chamber. In regard to the statement that one of the certifying doctors must be of consultant status, I think we ought to weigh very carefully what this may involve. Are we to insist that he must have consultant degrees? If so, we must realise that many doctors are in a consultant status in large provincial hospitals, or in small hospitals in relatively thinly populated areas, but do not possess consultant degrees.
The other point to be considered is this: must we always insist that this operation, involving a certain degree of risk but, nevertheless, relatively trivial, must always be carried out by a consultant of the hospital? Very often an appendectomy or a hernia operation is carried out by a junior hospital officer on the instructions or request of a hospital consultant, and I think it would be grossly unfair to expect every abortion necessarily to be carried out only by a hospital consultant.
A further point I would mention is that raised by my noble friend Lord Stonham, who said that as a safeguard he would like to insert a clause that both doctors who certify must be acting in good faith. I feel that is rather undesirable. Although we admit that
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there may be certain members in every profession who may come under suspicion, nevertheless, I think it is undesirable that the law should set itself up as a judge of a doctor's good faith. We all know that there exists a disciplinary body for the profession, the General Medical Council, and to my mind that body alone is the only properly constituted body which ought to judge a doctor's good faith.
LORD STONHAM: If my noble friend will allow me, I should like to point out that the medical body to which he has referred cannot prosecute a doctor who has not complied with the conditions in the Bill when it becomes an Act, and it is no use making provisions of this kind unless it is possible for a successful prosecution to be launched.
LORD SEGAL: While accepting fully that point of view, nevertheless one ought to put forward the opinion that the General Medical Council can set itself up in judgment upon a doctor as a result of a complaint by any member of the public, whether a patient of the doctor or not, by a minister of religion, to whatever denomination he may belong, or even on the plea of a Member of Parliament who may object strongly to this provision. So I personally should very much prefer the deletion of these words about judging a doctor's good faith. Where the evidence is quite clear, as in the case where a doctor issues a certificate known to he false, then of course there is no question of a prosecution being justified. I should prefer this matter to be left to the disciplinary body of the profession. At this stage, that is all I would venture in the way of criticism of the provisions so far discussed.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I do not know whether any other noble Lord wishes to say anything about this Amendment. I am grateful for the consideration that has been given to it. May I say straight away that I think I was wise in the language I used about the registered practitioner in the hospital, because, with my knowledge, I should have found it very difficult to define with greater precision the kind of person whom I had in mind. I am very grateful indeed for the suggestions that have been made. What I had in mind was to have someone holding a responsible position in a hospital

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who would give the certificates. I was not going into the difficulties and details of what precisely should be his status or degrees. My object, and the object of this Amendment, is to secure that a certificate should be given by someone holding a responsible position. The noble Baroness, whose support I welcome, suggested it should be a surgeon with gynæcological experience. The suggestion has been made that it should be a consultant.
I should be prepared to accept what was thought to be the right amendment, giving more precision to my Amendment, at a later stage, because I want to get this right; I think we are all agreed that we want a certificate to be given by someone holding a responsible position in a hospital. I do not myself want to define it so narrowly that it is going to be difficult for a woman to get the certificate. That is one of the things that were bothering me when I thought about seeing whether I could draft some definition. I do not want it to be difficult for a woman in a remote part of the country to get in touch with the people who can give her the certificate.
The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, asked me the question who was the regular doctor, and could that be defined. I am not going to seek to attempt to do that. Whether or not a woman has a regular doctor or, as in the case he mentioned, the luxury of two regular doctors is a pure question of fact; it is not a question of law. I thought myself it was valuable to make provision for the opinion being given of the women's regular doctor, if she had one—not every woman has, but where she had—so that the other doctor would get the fullest possible information about all her circumstances and background.
I must say I was most disappointed in the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. I should like to deal with those in a little detail. He said—and I agree with him—that there must be two concurring opinions. He then made the point that the Bill should stipulate that the certificates must be given in good faith. To suggest that doctors would give certificates in bad faith I regard as an insult. The presumption is that where a certificate is required by two doctors, it is given in good faith. There is no need, in my
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view to express that. Furthermore, to insert those words will not in the least degree facilitate the institution of a prosecution. If the noble Lord and the Home Office think it does, I hope they will think again.
As to the clause put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, supposing two doctors do not act in good faith. Let us just see what that means. It means that they certify that in their opinion (and this is a matter of opinion) the grounds specified in the Bill exist for an operation when in fact that is not their opinion; that is what not acting in good faith must mean. But without those words in the Bill, if it could be shown that two doctors had certified that something was their opinion when in fact it was not, those doctors could not claim the protection of this Bill; they would be open to prosecution. Therefore, the inclusion of the words "in good faith" is not only insulting but wholly unnecessary, for they add nothing.
I thought when hearing the noble Lord speak—and also from one of his interventions, when he said something to the effect that there was no use passing a Bill of this kind unless a prosecution was possible—that perhaps the Home Office were focussing too much attention on the possibilities of prosecution. If we get the machinery right with provision for certificates from responsible people in the medical profession, the risk of a fraudulent or false certificate is minimal. The chances, even if it is false, of the prosecution being able to prove that the opinion given was false—and it is a matter of opinion—are in any event negligible; and the noble Lord had better face up to that. So that second point on which he laid so much emphasis is, I think, a bad one.
Now I come to the hospital requirement. Of course we are all agreed that the operation should be done with great care, in conditions of cleanliness and in a place where there can be proper attention. But surely it is without precedent to require the legality of any operation which a patient wants to depend upon the place of its performance. I would ask the noble Lord: is there any precedent for that, or is it something conjured up by the Home Office, with a view perhaps to making it more possible to prosecute? I can think of none. I think that where the law provides that an operation should be lawful, it is left for the patient and her

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medical advisers to decide where that operation should take place.
Provided there is the test that responsible people in the medical profession must give their opinion that the operation is necessary, I think we should rely on them to secure that the operation is performed under suitable conditions and in a suitable place. It would be entirely wrong to accept the Government's view that it would be necessary to say to this woman, "You cannot have your pregnancy terminated lawfully, because the Government insist that it can be done only in a hospital, and it cannot be arranged for it to be done in a hospital until after the baby is born." What about the pressure on accommodation in the hospital? Has the noble Lord considered that? I do not know—there are no statistics—the numbers of illegal operations that take place now. The numbers may be very considerable; and the need for the operation to take place early we all know. I am certainly not against it—indeed, I would hope that the vast majority of these operations will take place in a hospital or registered nursing home, or nursing homes, approved by the Ministry of Health. But to lay that down as a condition of the legality of the operation would, I think, be entirely wrong. I do not want to say any more about that because it is rather outside the scope of this Amendment.
This Amendment to the Amendment, as I say, is designed only—and the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said it of his provision—to secure an objective. If my Amendment to the Amendment is carried, I will gladly consult with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and others, to see if we can find a proper way of defining the individual who holds a position of such responsibility as we all have in mind.
LORD TAYLOR: Before the noble Viscount completes his observations, would he be prepared to consult on this question of place? Because although one sees the force of what he says, there is force the other way; namely, that there is no other operation which is surrounded by so much legal difficulty, where there are so many penalties and dangers, for both patients and surgeons, and where, as a safeguard for both, there is much to be said for having the operation performed in a place of known safety.
5.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: With great respect to the noble Lord, I think that on this point there are two currents of thought which are somewhat conflicting. If we look at it from the point of view of the patient's safety, there is a great deal to be said for having the operation done in the hospital or the registered nursing home. But I should not like to lay it down that, from the patient's point of view, it must he done there. That is the point I am making. So far as the patient is concerned, I would leave it to her medical advisers. Once you get a certificate by responsible people, they will be able to advise, and to advise well. So far as the patient is concerned, I see no need for making the legality of the operation depend upon the place of its performance. Nor do I see that it is necessary to do so from the point of view of the medical profession, because if the noble Lord's Amendments are carried with my Amendment, the legality will not depend upon the place of operation: the legality will depend upon whether the procedure prescribed is followed and whether the certificates required are given by persons in authority.
But I am willing to discuss this matter further with the noble Lord. There are those two different points of view. I am reluctant to say at this moment—it does not arise on this Amendment—that I would confine the operations only to those which take place in hospital or in a registered nursing home, because I think that might be unduly restrictive. The only issue on this Amendment is whether there should be a certificate of either a regular doctor, if the patient has one, and one responsible doctor in the National Health Service—who can be defined later—or the certificate of two such doctors.
LORD STONHAM: Before the Amendment to the Amendment is put, I should like to answer two points which have been made by the noble and learned Viscount. The first is his suggestion that the requirement of suitable conditions may have been conjured up by the Home Office in order to make prosecution easier. I assure him and the Committee that there is no substance whatsoever in that suggestion. The suggestion that I made clear is one which accords with

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the views of the British Medical Association. The words I have used are those suggested by the Ministry of Health, and the other half of that is that the Ministry of Health consider that, in general, the Service can be expected to meet the requirement if such requirement is put into this Bill. So much for the question of suitable conditions, which would be entirely—and I should have thought this would have had the support of every noble Lord—for the welfare of the patient.
On the other point, the question of good faith, which is an important legal point—I do not wish to pursue it in any detail—the noble and learned Viscount said the suggestion that two doctors might give a certificate in bad faith is insulting. It is no more insulting than to suggest, as he did, quite truly, that two doctors might set up in a partnership and let it be known that they would be willing to accept abortions.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The noble Lord has completely missed the point. The point is the distinction between assuming in a Statute that members of the medical profession act in good faith, as they generally do, and stipulating in terms in a Statute that they must act in good faith, as if they generally did not. That is where the insult would be. That is what would he insulting. I also asked the noble Lord whether there was any precedent for making the legality of an operation dependent upon the place of its performance being in the Statute. Could he answer that question?
LORD STONHAM: I am afraid I cannot give a precedent now, but I will certainly let the noble and learned Viscount know the answer to that point. On the point of good faith, our understanding—and I tried to make this clear—is that the suggested new clause does not permit prosecution if there are two certificates. But in any event what we want is that there should be an offence only if there is bad faith, and not if a doctor has made an honest mistake. That is the whole position. But if there has been bad faith—and there may be some cases, as we all admit—then it should be possible for a prosecution to lie. This provision is a most difficult legal point which will require a great deal of consideration before we come to Report. I thought I
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should make it clear that we feel that it would be a necessary provision.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: If I may add a word, would the noble Lord bear this point in mind? For the operation to be lawful, what is required is to have a certificate by two doctors of their opinions. If they certify together on a piece of paper which contains something which purports to be their opinion when in fact it is not, they have not given two certificates of their opinions and therefore they cannot obtain the protection of this clause. I would ask the noble lord to give consideration to that. I think that if he does so he will find that the words "in good faith" are unnecessary.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: May I ask my noble friend one question? He need not answer me now, but he can let me know. This suggestion that the words "in good faith" should be on every certificate seems to me to be absolutely novel. If it is so important, why have not his Department seen to it that the hundreds of thousands of certificates which doctors sign have on them the words "in good faith"? Does it mean that without good faith the certificate is not legally valid?
LORD STONHAM: My noble friend has completely misunderstood what I said. I am sorry if I did not make it clear. I never suggested at any time the form of the certificate that should be given, or that the words "in good faith" should appear on it. I am merely suggesting that under the Statute it should be necessary—and the exact form of words I am not yet suggesting—to act in good faith; indeed, my noble friend Lord Silkin has those words in the original Bill. I am merely saying that they should be retained in the new Bill, and I did not hear anyone suggest, when my noble friend moved the Second Reading of his own Bill, that to suggest that any doctors might act otherwise than in good faith was insulting.
LORD COLERAINE: I speak with great diffidence, because I am neither doctor nor lawyer, but I wonder whether my noble and learned friend can clarify one point that raises difficulty in my mind. He said, I think, that if it was not the real opinion of the two registered medical practitioners that the termination

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of pregnancy was justified, they could not get the protection of the Bill. As I read the proviso, it would seem to me that it does not insist that it should be the opinion of these practitioners, but only that they should be prepared to certify that it was. Am I wrong in that?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: If two doctors certify that it was justified, I should have thought it was clearly implied that that was their opinion. If they have given a certificate which does not state their opinion, it is not a certificate of their opinion. I think it is as simple as that.
5.10 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: A great part of the discussion has taken place on words which are neither in my Amendment which is before the Committee nor in Lord Dilhorne's Amendment to the Amendment. The phrase "in good faith" has been used. My noble friend Lord Stonham is seeking to put into both of our Amendments something which neither of us inserted. It is true that in the original Bill there appeared the words "in good faith", but I explained to the Committee that I had entirely recast the Bill, I had thought about it again, and had come to the conclusion, as did the noble and learned Viscount, that those words were unnecessary, and indeed rather offensive; and they have been left out deliberately. If, however, I am advised by the Parliamentary draftsmen that those words are essential to the Bill, I shall, naturally, be ready to listen to what they have to say.
However, the question before us at the moment is not whether there should be a second opinion, but what should be the nature of the concurring opinion. Those who have spoken to-day have not agreed on what it should be—they have not even agreed with the noble and learned Viscount. Certainly I would agree that something more than the words in my Amendment should be included. I accept that one would need some kind of qualification as to what the second opinion should be.
It has been clearly shown that the noble Viscount's Amendment, as it stands, will not do; in fact he has admitted it. I suggest to him that we should all think again as to exactly the words that we want to include. We are
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not clear at the moment, and to include something in place of my provision which itself it not satisfactory is not very good business. I suggest that we should all get together to try to thresh out something, and if the noble Viscount will then put down an Amendment it will probably go through without any difficulty. That would probably be the simplest way of getting over the impasse in which we find ourselves at present.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I have listened to the noble Lord sympathetically, but a little pessimistically. I do not want to reveal the contents of the long discussions which I have had with the noble Lord about this Bill, but I can go as far as to say that, up to now, it has been a point of great controversy between us. I have been saying, "I want to see two responsible doctors in the National Health Service give the certificate", and the noble Lord, having moved from one general practitioner, moved from two, and was not prepared to go any further. If we could get the principle established as the wish of the House, I do not think that the formulation of this as a matter of words would be difficult; but it is difficult to see from the speeches exactly what is the view of the Committee on the question of principle.
The principle raised by this Amendment is whether it should be a certificate by any general practitioner, or whether, as my Amendment proposes, it must be a certificate, if not by the woman's regular doctor, by responsible persons employed in a National Health Service hospital. If the Committee are in favour of what I have put forward, I think we could agree about how one should define "responsible persons in the National Health Service". It would be valuable, if we are to have further discussions—which I, for one, should welcome—to have an expression of view from the Committee on what is the question of principle raised by this Amendment. I feel that this is neccessary.
If the Committee say, "No, we are quite content to leave the certificates to be given by any medical practitioner", there is no need for further definition. If, on the other hand, the Committee say, "Yes, it should he the woman's regular doctor, if she has one; but, if not, two responsible people in the National Health

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Service", then at a later stage we can proceed to define the position in relation to those responsible persons. While I am reluctant to disagree with the noble Lord, I feel that there would be an advantage in coming to a conclusion on this issue.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: The noble Lord left out hospitals. I am sure that he meant to say, "in the National Health Service hospitals".
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Yes, I did mean that. I am obliged to the noble Baroness.
LORD CONESFORD: Might I make a suggestion to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin? The Amendments moved by my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne are three in number, although, of course, they have all been taken together. Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 merely improve the drafting, and the main contribution is made by the noble Viscount's third Amendment, which is No. 4 on the Order Paper.
I have listened with an open mind to the whole of the discussion, and I should like to express my gratitude, as a lay Member of the House, to the medical Members who have given us their opinion. What has been common to them all is that something about qualifications should be included, and the Amendment of my noble and learned friend deals with qualifications. As Lord Silkin rightly said, it has been generally agreed that it is not entirely satisfactory and will not do, as it stands, but I suggest that it will be easier to amend it if it is in the Bill than to start afresh with no mention of any qualifications, as we should do if we did not accept my noble and learned friend's Amendment. Therefore, I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, might accept this series of Amendments, leaving open what the qualifications should be. He would thereby avoid the necessity for any Division, and would do his own cause no harm.
LORD SILKIN: I do not want to start off by dividing the Committee on an issue which is not of very great importance: that is to say, whether the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment, unsatisfactory as it is, should go into the Bill, or whether my Amendment should be
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retained, with an undertaking that it will be amended before the next stage. In the interests of good will, and hoping that I shall get a good mark hereafter, I am prepared to accept the noble Viscount's Amendment to the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment to Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I beg to move the second Amendment to the Amendment.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Line 5, leave out ("such").—(Viscount Dilhorne.)
On Question, Amendment to Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I beg to move the third Amendment to the Amendment.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Line 5, after ("practitioners") insert ("being either the pregnant woman's regular doctor and a registered medical practitioner employed in a hospital under the National Health Service or two registered medical practitioners so employed,").—(Viscount Dilhorne.)
On Question, Amendment to Amendment agreed to.
5.18 p.m.
THE EARL OF LYTTON THE EARL OF LYTTON moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, in paragraph (a), to leave out "at or after" and insert "or at" [the birth of the child]. The noble Earl said: The purpose of this Amendment is to sound your Lordships' opinion as to whether the retention of the word "after" in Clause 1 would leave the door open for this to be read in the light of the wording of paragraph (c), even if that paragraph were removed from the Bill. It was clear from the Second Reading debate that the majority of your Lordships wanted to substitute for the present Case Law, or something like it, Statute Law. It was not at all clear what proportion of Members would wish to go beyond that point. Up to that point it is covered by paragraph (a). The Bench of Bishops may consider that their views are adequately reflected in the Church of England pamphlet which has been produced since we last discussed the matter, and may feel that, ethically, their values are not violated by the terms of the clause as drawn—namely, to defend the first principle, the right of the fœtus

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to live and develop. Discussion will proceed on this general assumption, that the
"right may be offset by other conflicting rights; and that the proper function of the criminal law is "
to regulate and adjust what cannot be regulated in other ways. I take this from page 32 of the Church of England's pamphlet.
Also, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, in his speech to your Lordships on Second Reading, said:
"So where there is a direct and unavoidable clash between the interests of the mother and of her unborn baby, the mother takes precedence over the baby". [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 270 (No. 11), col. 1231, 30/11 /65.]
It seems to me that the purpose of paragraph (a), as expressed, is to put that limited purpose into effect and to go no further, and definitely not to go so far as paragraph (c), which we shall be discussing later. The word "after" has a limited clinical meaning, which I discussed with one of the joint secretaries of the B.M.A.'s Committee on Abortion, and, naturally, neither he nor any other doctor to whom I have spoken has the least objection to "after" being included. There are grave risks to life during pregnancy and at the time of delivery, and there is the risk of collapse afterwards. But I am asking your Lordships: does not the word "after" extend indefinitely into the future and imply something of paragraph (c)?
I asked the doctors, including the one at the B.M.A. to whom I have referred, whether there were medical conditions where there would not be this grave risk during pregnancy, where there would not be this grave risk during delivery, but where, nevertheless, there would be a grave risk after. But I could not find any who said that, if there was a risk of collapse afterwards, there would be no such risk at the time of delivery or during pregnancy. I am aware that the B.M.A. have not supported this Amendment of mine. I consulted them, and they told me that it was of no particular interest to them, and I have today received a courteous letter with their recommendations.
I have no wish to press this matter, but I should like to feel that paragraph (a) covers only the narrowest field, on the basis of the vital conflict between two beings with the right to live, when
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the decision may be taken in the mother's favour. I do not wish to say anything more, because I have no intention of pressing this small Amendment. In the event of paragraph (c) being eliminated, would the word "after" include something more than those who favour this vital conflict would want? I beg to move.
Amendment moved,—
In paragraph (a), line 4, leave out ("at or after") and insert ("or at").—(The Earl of Lytton.)
5.24 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: The noble Earl has quite clearly explained the difficulty in which he finds himself, which is that he does not want to extend the meaning of paragraph (a) beyond the actual, immediate effect of the pregnancy on the woman. I do, and that is the difference between us. I cannot pretend, of course—and I am not pretending—to be an authority on this subject, but it is conceivable to me, and I have known of such cases, that a woman can safely survive a pregnancy, but the after-effects of the pregnancy are very serious to her. I need not go into detail about that, because I do not know enough about the matter, but, as they stand, the words in my Amendment are intended to cover these cases. In other words, the danger to the woman is not ended at the delivery; it may continue afterwards. Therefore I hope that the noble Earl will be prepared to accept what I have said, and not to press his Amendment.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Having had babies, I should like to ask whether the noble Earl has ever considered this point. A woman might have a chronic illness which has not entitled a doctor to procure an abortion, because he does not believe that she will die at childbirth. So she is carefully looked after during her pregnancy and after the childbirth, and she survives, but she is still a sick woman. Has the noble Earl considered the appalling strain to which that woman is subjected after the confinement, when she has to care for the child? I cannot quite understand, when he suggests that a woman is not subject to any strain after having a child. I should have thought that the strain to which a sick woman was subjected was much greater after the birth of the child, and, indeed, for many

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years after, when she may be up day and night with a screaming baby.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: I will not take up your Lordships' time for more than a moment or two. On this question of leaving out "after", there is one relevant consideration, and that is of post-confinement psychoses, which are mostly depressive illnesses, often accompanied by a risk not only to the mother of suicide, but also to the child of infanticide. The latest figures show that 86 per cent. of all psychoses associated with pregnancy occur after the confinement rather than during it. Furthermore, there is some evidence, although this is not common, that such post-confinement illnesses are repetitive and occur in one confinement after another. There would, therefore, in certain circumstances, be a perfectly valid ground for terminating a pregnancy when a situation has recurred in the postpartum period.
LORD STONHAM: There is one other point which the noble Earl might like to consider. It is generally accepted that the words used by my noble friend in paragraph (a) of his Amendment give statutory effect to the present position under case law. If I may remind the noble Earl, in the Bourne case the judge said in his summing-up:
"If pregnancy is likely to make the woman a physical or mental wreck, the jury is entitled to take the view that a doctor, who, in these circumstances, and led by his belief, operates, is operating for the purpose of preserving the life of the woman."
That implies that, in considering the risk to the mother's life, a doctor is entitled to consider the possible effect of the pregnancy on her health, not only before or at the time of the child's birth, but also afterwards. Therefore, if the noble Earl succeeded in taking out the words he seeks to remove, and if this Bill were passed, it would make the statutory position more restrictive than the present position under case law.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: It is clear from all the comments that there is an objection on the part of those with a medical interest in the mother to the exclusion of the word "after". However, nobody has answered whether, by the inclusion of this word, there is any intention to open the door further and to let
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in anything implied in these other paragraphs. I am not going to press the matter further, but I should like to ask generally whether it is the intention to retain something of the character of the provisions of paragraph (c) as well as these immediate clinical after-effects. I gathered two things from what the noble Baroness said. First, I wonder if she understood that I was not contemplating (I thought I made it clear) that a severe illness could start without anything whatever being foreseen; that it could be predicted that she might be exceedingly ill afterwards when there was no risk at delivery and no risk during the pregnancy. All this is prediction. I do not wish to press the point, but that is what I was trying to get at.
Beyond that, I have no wish to eliminate proper treatment if it can be stated that a prediction of the condition after can be made independently of that during delivery, and during pregnancy. I think I should like a lead. Opinion on the medical side strongly supports the retention of "after" for clinical reasons, and I should like to ask the Government—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, will tell us—or the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, whether it is intended, if paragraph (c) is eliminated, that these provisions should remain through the retention of the word "after".
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Is the noble Earl withdrawing his Amendment?
THE EARL OF LYTTON: I asked a question hoping that it would be answered before I withdrew the Amendment. If not, my next step is to ask to withdraw.
LORD SILKIN: Perhaps I should say, as a matter of courtesy, that I would rather not say what would happen in the very unlikely event of paragraph (c) being defeated.
Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.34 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, to leave out paragraph (b). The right reverend Prelate said: I think that this is where the crunch really comes. My Amendment to delete paragraph (b), and indeed the Amendments to delete paragraphs (c) and (d) also, are based on my

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objection to the new principle which these paragraphs introduce into the Bill. That the unborn child's right to live yields to the right and interest of the mother, I concede; and if the threat to the mother is sufficiently severe I concede the legitimacy of abortion. In reaching such a decision as to the gravity of the threat to the mother, I would include all those things which are called socio-medical reasons. I would wish the total human situation of the mother to be taken into account, though I agree that to make these judgments and predictions about the future will place upon those who have to make them a very difficult and heavy burden.
However, here in paragraph (b) we have as the justification for an abortion not any grave threat to the life or health of the mother but what are the other interests of the child. This is quite a different principle, and is one which I find unacceptable: not, I hope, from any lack of sympathy for or sensitivity to the enormous suffering which has to be endured by gravely deformed and handicapped children; nor, indeed, because I underestimate the burden which the parents of such children carry. However noble their devotion and however sacrificial their love, this does not remove the suffering either from the parents or from the child. But is it right to prevent that suffering from happening by means of an abortion? For what we are in fact saying if we advocate an abortion for these reasons is that life under certain conditions is just not worth living. We are saying, "It is better if this child is not born". Looking ahead, and with such knowledge as we have, we say, "When we see that child actually living in its deformed state we shall say to ourselves that it would have been better had that child never been born. Therefore, if that is so, ought we not now to ensure, while we have the power, that in fact it never will be born?"
But have we really the right to say that kind of thing? Would all the living spastics agree with us if we said it? And where would one draw the line? How would one define a "reasonable enjoyment of life"? There are some malformations which begin in the womb and which, after the birth, are of such an afflicting character that one must say, "It would have been better if that
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fœtus had never come to birth". But here we are estimating risks, for a fœtus suffering from this kind of deformity cannot, with certainty, be identified. I understand that pædiatricians and gynecologists admit this. But they say you can accurately define the risk in any given case, and they argue that beyond certain points the risk should be judged unacceptable and abortion allowed. One pædiatrician whom I consulted said that, in his judgment; a risk of over 15 per cent., or, at any rate, under 25 per cent., would be unacceptable. It is undoubtedly true that you have this high degree of risk of serious deformities in a number of cases: one in seven, or, maybe, one in four; though I am given to understand that in the cases concerning German measles—where German measles can be accurately diagnosed, and not mistaken for something similar to it—the average risk level is not nearly as high as is commonly stated. It can vary, in some cases from 50 per cent., down to 10 per cent., down to nil, according to the period of pregnancy and the strength of the virus.
One of the immense difficulties confronting us in accepting the principle of abortion in the alleged interests of the child is that we are estimating statistical risks; and I am informed that there are a mere handful of doctors in this country who are capable of giving such accurate predictions in any one given case. But, granted that an accurate prediction is made in a particular case, should we force a woman to accept a risk which is, say, one in four or one in seven, that the baby she will bring to birth will be hideously deformed? Our instinct, of course, is to say, "No. No woman should be forced to face such a situation". But suppose one puts it the other way round. A risk of one in four that the baby will be horribly deformed means that you have a four to one chance that the baby will be perfectly normal; so that three times out of every four, if you allow abortion in this kind of situation, you will be destroying a perfectly normal and unmaimed life. I find it very difficult to make up my mind on these extremely serious cases where the statistical risk has been accurately estimated. But I am quite sure that a wide and general application of this principle would be utterly and entirely wrong, and would gravely damage the general

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estimate of the value of human life which is held in our society.
I think that this paragraph is much too widely drawn. It would legalise abortion where there are minor risks and minor deformities. I believe also that the most distressing cases of all would probably be capable of being brought under paragraph (a). In such a situation, the mother might well be under such grave distress that an abortion would be lawful, because the pregnancy was constituting a grave threat to her mental health. But, as I say, paragraph (b) is too widely drawn by far. I think it is, perhaps, extremely dangerous and I should like to see it withdrawn. I should like to see further consultations held with the medical profession, and I believe that further advancements in medical science should be awaited before we allow the human fœtus to be destroyed without the absolute certainty that it will on birth prove to be gravely and hideously deformed. I beg to move.
Amendment to Amendment moved—
Leave out paragraph (b).—(The Lord Bishop of Exeter.)
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: As the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, indicated, I am responsible for this form of words; so perhaps the Committee would like to hear from me at this stage an explanation of paragraph (b) and the reason it was drafted in this way. With a good deal of what the right reverend Prelate said I find myself in agreement; but to hear him speaking I could not believe that he had really studied this provision in Lord Silkin's new clause. Most of what the right reverend Prelate said would have been entirely apt and entirely right in relation to the original clause in the Bill, because it says in paragraph (b) that the pregnancy could be terminated if it were believed that:
"…if the pregnancy were allowed to continue there would be grave risk of the child being born grossly deformed or with other serious physical or mental abnormality,…"
That is very wide. Then, indeed, the observations that the right reverend Prelate made about spastics and others would apply. But when the right reverend Prelate went on to say that this new paragraph (b) is too widely drawn, and would cover minor risks and minor deformities,
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I can only say that I regret he has not appreciated the effect of this provision. This is what it says:
"…the child if born would be likely to suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to deprive it of any prospect "—
and I emphasise the words "any prospect"—
"of reasonable enjoyment of life."
I cannot myself think that it is a fair deduction from those words to say that that provision would cover minor risks and minor deformities. It could not. It would be necessary to find, first of all, that there are physical or mental abnormalities of such a character as to destroy any prospect of a reasonable enjoyment of human life. That is a test which I should have thought was very hard to satisfy. The right reverend Prelate's argument on statistics (when he spoke of three out of four children being born normal or all right) will not apply in relation to this test; because two eminent doctors who are to certify that the conditions required exist must be satisfied that they exist in relation to that particular fœtus.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: Can the noble and learned Viscount give any example of where the medical profession can do this?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I was coming on to that in a moment. I was saying, first of all, that I think it important, before one discusses whether the paragraph should be in the Bill, to see what it provides. I gathered from what the right reverend Prelate said that he recognised that there could be, and were, cases of such abnormality that one must say it would have been better if that fœtus had not come to birth. I think the right reverend Prelate used those words.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: Yes, I did. What I am trying to get from the noble and learned Viscount is whether he has experience of a member of the medical profession who can with certainty say that this fœtus will be diagnosed.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I was coming to that. I am not seeking to evade it. But may I first say what this Amendment is designed to do? If the medical profession cannot say that, this provision will do no harm.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: It will do no good.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: And it does no good. But if it can be said, as I am told that it can, it meets the case that the right reverend Prelate recognises exists. The case for this provision and the case against it is very different from that represented by the right reverend Prelate. That was what I was seeking to put forward first.
I said something about this matter during the Second Reading debate. I think that in most of these cases where there is a real likelihood of sufficient abnormality to cause anxiety or depression to the mother, the doctors may be able to certify—and the case may well justify it—that in their opinion there would be a grave risk if the pregnancy was allowed to continue. Here we have to contemplate a case which does not fall into paragraph (a), where it can be said, perhaps because of the past medical history of the woman, who may have had three children suffering from abnormalities of the kind to which the right reverend Prelate referred and where one would have said that it would have been much better had the children not been born and where the woman has again become pregnant and the doctors (we must depend on their opinion), can say, with as much certainty as they can express an opinion on anything, that the infant, if horn, has no prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life. In such a case, and only in such a case, would this particular provision apply.
I think it would be a defect in the Bill if it did not make provision for covering that kind of case. Such a case may he very rare; I do not mind how rare; I hope it is rare. But it seems to me that it would be a serious defect in the Bill if you made provision for the termination of a pregnancy in the interests of the mother, but no provision was made for terminating a pregnancy where you were satisfied that you could not say that it was likely to affect the health of the mother hut, as a result of abnormalities, mental or physical, you were satisfied that the child would be deprived of any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life.
The noble Lord has said that it was my wording, and I take the responsibility. It applies a very severe test. A case may
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not often come within the test. It will be for the doctors to decide whether it does as a question of fact, after considering all the relevant circumstances. But if they reached the conclusion that matters mentioned in paragraph (b) existed, I think it would be a defect in the Bill if we did not provide for a lawful termination. That is the reasoning for it. I have agreed with a great deal of what the right reverend Prelate said in his general observations about spastics and life under certain conditions, but this provision does not apply to that. If there is any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life, no certificate under this provision could properly be given. To me this is the unusual case. I think there will be few which cannot be dealt with under the provisions of paragraph (a) where eminent doctors are of opinion (it is entirely a matter for them to judge) that conditions under paragraph (b) are satisfied. The right reverend Prelate said that if there are no such cases this provision will not do any harm. On the other hand, if there are such cases this provision could do a good deal to alleviate human suffering. I hope that, on reflection, when the right reverend Prelate realises how tightly this provision is drawn, he will not persist in his objection to it.
5.55 p.m.
LORD SOPER: I hope that this Amendment will be rejected. I have no particular pleasure in opposing my noble ecclesiastical friend, and it is with a certain amount of surprised gratification that I find myself largely in agreement with the noble and learned Viscount. I believe that this matter has to he judged, for those who take the particular Christian faith which I hold and which is held by many in this Chamber, on matters which are primarily matters of principle rather than matters of pragmatic importance and calculations on events as they may fall out. Therefore I ask the indulgence of your Lordships' House to say a little about the basis on which I think that this Amendment ought to be rejected.
I believe that this question of abortion is not a circle of which the mother is the centre: it is much more like an ellipse of which there are two fascia, the mother and the child. This can form an introduction, I think, to the general principle which as a professing Christian, would

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hold, and which I know is shared by many of your Lordships. It is that we are concerned with the alleviation of human suffering in order that we may care for one another; and care for the child as well as care for the mother must be of equal importance, as it seems to me, in our calculations. It is true, of course, that one who speaks from the Christian tradition should speak with a certain amount of shame, if not of deep regret, at the way in which the whole matter has been befuddled. I suppose it is a matter of general agreement that if you have a bad doctrine it will sound rather more significant in Latin than in any ordinary language. I think that the semantic problems are immense and have obscured the main principle.
I would gently break a lance with the right reverend Prelate when he uses a phrase like "the unborn child's right to live." If you wrote that clown and studied it with some care, I think you would find it semantically nonsense. No unborn child has any rights at all. Furthermore, it seems to me that there has been a fallacious and almost ridiculous attitude to the comparable values in eternal terms of a fœtus within the womb and a fully-grown person. We, who talk so much about the sanctity of the fœtal life, are, I think, under the strong condemnation of being pretty prodigal in our attitude to the way in which we are prepared to see adult lives squandered in warfare over the years. I do not think we stand on very sound ground when we make such an extravagant case for the eternal rights of what medically, it seems to me, cannot be regarded in a pre-formative sense but must be genetical. I, for one, would come almost to the view (in fact I think I am coming to it) that there is nothing morally objectionable in early abortion; it is but a continuation of contraception. However, that is not the point with which I am primarily concerned at the moment.
What I think has to be faced in your Lordships' House is whether or not in this particular concern for the welfare of other people we ought to pay as much attention to the precise cases cited by the previous speaker as we have already paid to the welfare of the mother. I believe that this is right. You will allow me to reinforce what I say from a practical experience which some of you
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may not have had the opportunity of sharing. I am at this moment responsible for fourteen pregnant girls in a hostel and I am quite sure, from a careful analysis of their condition and what approximately their conditions are likely to be, that it would have been a very good thing if this law were already on the Statute Book; for I believe that at least four of these girls will be permanently impaired, spiritually, psychologically, by the trauma of childbearing, particularly at a very early age.
I am also responsible for a hospital in which we seek to care for delinquent girls, and I am perfectly certain that in your Lordships' House you will not doubt or treat as trivial or frivolous this comment: that anybody who has had any protracted experience of the psychological conditions of girls who pass through the experience of childbirth in squalid and dirty conditions, knows that they themselves have in some way contributed to those squalid conditions and to the, in large measure, impossible degree of squalor in which children begin to grow up. In those cases, children are to a certain extent malformed psychologically. They would not come properly within this Amendment to the Amendment, but they would very properly come within the general circumference of the argument that we are concerned with the welfare alike of the mother and the child. Then, as the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, said, there are cases in which, clearly, malformation precludes any chance of a full life, or of a recognisable life. It is for this reason that I believe that this Amendment is necessary.
It will not cover a multitude of cases, but it will fully meet the argument with which we are concerned. And though we may make mistakes, it will be a commendation of our attempts to face this problem, not as a question limited to the welfare of the mother in practice, but as an all-over conception of our affection and care for one another. I notice that in Graham Greene's last book, The Comedians, he puts into the mouth of one of his characters a very strong but pertinent phrase: that he would rather have blood on his hands than water on his hands, like Pilate. I, for one, believe that there is a strong spiritual case, and

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an even stronger moral case, for regarding care for the child as imperative as care for the mother, and I believe that it should be safeguarded.
6.3 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: I should like to say a word in support of the Amendment of the right reverend Prelate. First of all, it seems to me enormously difficult to tell, before a child is born, that there is going to be something so wrong with it that it cannot possibly be assured of leading a normal life or of enjoying life at all. Though this can be done, as the noble and learned Viscount said, I think that it will always be a rare thing. Another point which occurred to me is that it would be possible for the cases diagnosed before birth to come under paragraph (a), particularly when we have in the Bill the additional words, "after the birth of the child". If we are going to pass a Bill like this, I think that we must make it as simple and uncomplicated as possible; and if we are going to put in a series of paragraphs trying to define things which are almost undefinable, we shall make the Bill more narrow in its application than present Case Law. That is why I, for one, should like to support the right reverend Prelate here.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: What worries me about paragraph (b) is how to define "reasonable enjoyment of life ". If some noble Lord could tell me how to define that, I should feel far happier. For example, somebody could be born physically abnormal—perhaps he might have no legs—but he might become a brilliant musician and therefore could be presumed to have reasonable enjoyment of life. On the other hand, somebody could be born with no legs and with no talents at all, and it could perhaps be said that he might not have reasonable enjoyment of life. I have some sympathy with this Amendment, because I am not at all happy about this phrase "reasonable enjoyment of life".
LORD GRENFELL: I rise to support the right reverend Prelate. I think that we have to look at this matter also from the point of view of the two doctors concerned. Are they going to be happy about defining "reasonable enjoyment"? I find it difficult to believe this. In the Carshalton Hospital Group, of which I am chairman, there are a great number of
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children who are mentally subnormal and physically handicapped in some way, but I find that many of them have a very reasonable enjoyment of life. For example, there are two little thalidomide children who are very happy children. If I were a doctor, I should find it very difficult to decide whether or not those children should have lived. I should also think that if it came to the stage when it was painfully obvious that, perhaps through hereditary reasons, a second child in a family was going to be seriously abnormal, and that would come under paragraph (a), because it would cause grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman.
I find that abnormal children are usually dearly loved by their parents, and I think that this paragraph puts the doctor in a very difficult situation. We all want to get this Bill through; we all have the same end. But I think that both paragraphs (b) and (c) are going to make it difficult for the doctor to decide. We want to he quite clear-cut in what we intend to do, and any vagueness should be cut out of the Bill. I feel sure that paragraph (b) should be taken out of the Bill.
LORD TAYLOR: I was mystified about why paragraph (b) had been changed, until the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, explained what had been done. I think that the revised version is much more liberal than the original version, and I find the word "enjoyment" very difficult to deal with. I am advised by my colleagues in the British Medical Association that they feel that the new paragraph is infinitely less good than the original one, which says
"…grossly deformed or with other serious physical or mental abnormality."
We can make an effort to diagnose that. We can make a statistical assessment. I admit that it would be difficult, but, as the years go on, this will become more accurate. I infinitely prefer the original, as I am sure would all doctors who are faced with this problem.
I think that we should deal with this matter, and I should prefer to keep the revised version than lose it, for the reasons which the noble and learned Viscount has given. It would be ridiculous to rely on paragraph (a) to cover such cases as would come under paragraph (b). It would be running away

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from our obligations. I think that we owe it to the medical profession to give them reasonable definitions. I still think that these were given in the original version, but not in this one.
6.10 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: I find myself torn one way and the other. I listen to one speech, and I agree with it; and then I listen to another speech, and I agree with that, too. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is chairman of a hospital group in my diocese, and I know the wonderful care he gives to the children and the tremendous help this is. When he speaks, I feel my sympathy going out towards him; and I feel the same when the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Exeter, speaks. On the other hand, I remember that when I was on the board of management of a hospital for children of this kind there were two wards where we were advised by the medical officer not to enter. I suppose those two wards together would have equalled the space of our Chamber. I took the line that if a priest could not enter there, he could not go anywhere. I think I was the only member of the committee who went into those wards. I shall never forget seeing these children—one did not know what to call them—some with large heads and practically no bodies and others in all sorts of contortions. One child I asked about had had nineteen fits that day. Whether or not they were human is a theological problem beyond my understanding.
All I can say is that if it were possible to know in advance that one could prevent the birth of those children, I am sure that one should have prevented it. There is not a shadow of doubt in my mind about that. My wonder is—and I think it was in the minds of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, and the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell—how can you know in advance that this is going to be so? If this matter does go to a Division, I shall vote according to the medical advice that I am given. Is there a noble Lord in this Chamber who can really advise us on this point? I remember that it was on a Christmas Day that I visited these two wards, and I have never in my experience, of wars, death and so on, been shaken to quite that extent. If I could be satisfied by
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what a noble Lord said to me this evening: "Yes, we can prevent that", then I should vote for paragraph (b). I am sure there are many of your Lordships who are in my position and who long for some noble Lord with medical knowledge to say: "Yes; you can depend upon medical judgment". If that be the case, please let us have this information.
6.12 p.m.
LORD REAY: My Lords, this is a difficult Committee stage to deal with, and the Amendments to Clause 1, in particular are difficult, because there are certain similarities of principle between its paragraphs (between this paragraph and the case of rape in paragraph (d), for example; even between this paragraph and paragraph (c), in so far as both are principally concerned with post-natal considerations), as a result of which certain arguments and counter-arguments are legitimately usable for successive Amendments. There are, of course, certain others that are not. But one is presented with a delicate course to pick between repetition and irrelevance.
There is the correlative difficulty, that if a more obvious consistency should be observed in our total conclusions, some of the paragraphs interdepend on each other. For example, it would not seem very consistent to me to accept—although a case could probably be made for it—paragraph (d) if we had rejected paragraph (b); there would certainly be little sense in the inclusion of Amendment No. 11, subsection (2), if we were to reject this paragraph we are debating. Moreover, in many cases I do not doubt that certain of the cases allowable specifically under paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) would in fact prove allowable under paragraph (a).
In view of these facts, I will state my arguments for the acceptance of Lord Silkin's Amendment, both where they are particular to this case, and where they stand in common to reasons adducable for the adoption of paragraphs (c) and (d). In the latter case. I will not repeat them when it falls to us to consider the succeeding Amendments. I will also assume that in considering paragraph (b) we are considering the likelihood of abnormality in the terms of paragraph (b) as a reason for an abortion only in those cases where

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an abortion is unobtainable under paragraph (a), and only, naturally, when it is desired by the parent; in other words, where a woman wishes an abortion, where a medical likelihood of abnormality in the child is demonstrable, and where there is insufficient risk of grave injury to her own mental or physical health for us to cease insisting, notwithstanding her own preference, that she should bear the child.
The paragraph that is the subject of this Amendment is the first to break ground of serious dispute between those who do not adopt the Roman Catholic position. This is so, 1 think, partly because it appears to raise the intolerable and, in fact, in principle, unanswerable question of deciding whether or not a certain type of life is worth living; partly because it certainly raises the question of whether the community has the resources, or should devote the necessary resources, to the maintenance of such lives in a certain tolerable condition when it could have had a say in preventing their origin; partly because, if we persistently ignore the wishes of the mother—and it is the one ignoble feature of this Bill that it does so persistently ignore them—as distinct from the effects on herself of the frustration of her wishes which the law already recognises, then there seems, except for one factor, to be no logical difference between the prevention of birth on these grounds of likely malformation and the putting to death of the malformed newly born for the same reason. But this excepting factor is vital, and is itself at the root of all divisions on this subject. It is: can you distinguish in principle between the extinction of life and the extinction of potential life?
On Second Reading, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, in a customary lucid and eloquent exposition of his views, said that the real issue of this Bill was the value we are to place upon human life; and he referred to the inherent and basic right, the right to life. I should like to observe that the Church has in its history been very much less notable for its pure adherence to this principle of the sanctity of life than it has for its infringements, many of which have been spectacular. Indeed, whenever debate could be imagined and has been held on the moral legitimacy of infringing this principle, the Church more
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often than not has been a protagonist of infringement. It was not until 1956 that the number of Bishops voting in this House for the suspension of capital punishment preponderated over the number that voted for its retention. For less than one-fortieth of its established life the Anglican Church has opposed the State penalty of death as a legitimate instrument of social policy.
And then there are the wars. To disregard those wars, whose origins lie in dogmatic dissension, and whose vigorous prosecution and acclaimed casualties have been due to the adamancies of one Christian interpretation against another; to disregard the sectarian persecutions which required, for them to have been undertaken at all, the determination of those that adhered to one Christian doctrine to eliminate those that held to another—I can neither remember any war of the past, nor imagine any war for the future in which this country might be involved, to which the Anglican Church would withhold its patriotic encouragement, to the undebateable infringement of this absolute principle, whatever other principle, considered for the time being superior, may have been correspondingly elevated.
Now the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Exeter, on Second Reading—and explicitly claiming to speak for the Benches on which he sits—adumbrated the current episcopal adaptation of this principle to the subject of abortion. He described the position he once held, which he understands to be the doctrine to-day of the Roman Catholic Church—and I agree with this understanding—that this principle is relevant and uninfringeable from the date of conception, not later, not before. There seemed to be three separable points made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter. The first, that the foetus is not a member of the human race, in the ordinary sense of these matters, but has the potentiality of so becoming. Secondly, that the realised rights of the living mother predominate over the potential rights of the foetus. Thirdly, that in evaluating the vital interests of the mother, one should not exclude the duties of the mother towards the living members of her family. The point at which one decides that what has hitherto been only potential life becomes life must necessarily be arbitrary.

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I personally, should be quite happy to adopt the Roman Catholic position, if it were clear that this caused no suffering. To argue from some imagined moment of potentiality is difficult, because potentialities for the creation of life undoubtedly exist and are avoided, when an opportunity for sexual intercourse is provided and is not taken.
It also seems to me that the Roman Catholics have connived in some measure at a distinction between, as it were, the unemancipated and the emancipated fœtus, by not conducting funeral services for the miscarried foetus, but conducting them in the case of stillbirths. Certainly the law has this distinction, and I should be happy to take this point of legal difference between the miscarriage and the registrable stillbirth, which I think is 28 weeks, as the non-medical criterion for determining the limiting date to a legitimately terminable pregnancy, although obviously improvements in medical knowledge and equipment might make it less comfortable to adhere to this point of distinction.
There are various arguments for disallowing an abortion on the ground of threatened deformity alone. These arguments are well covered in an impressive document on abortion prepared in 1965 for the Church Assembly Board for Social Responsibility by the Church Information Office. This document notes that acceptance of this principle could be abused into a programme of child destruction. It is argued that, certainty never being attainable (and this is a point which the right reverend Prelate has made), undeformed fœtuses will be aborted which could have been born healthy children; and it is argued that the articulate among the congenitally deformed would not endorse the view that they would have been better unborn. Broadly, for these reasons, the document concludes that this category should be disallowed.
On the other hand, the pamphlet recognises that were a major deformity, such that the fœtus could hardly be called a potential human being (as, for example, in the case of an anencephalic child), discernible in advance, their answer in that case could be different and it seems to me that they explicitly recognise the relevance to the question of the condi-
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tions and capacity of the society for which the legislation is prepared. I am not impressed by the arguments I have mentioned for acceptance of this Amendment. It seems to me that it is an adult society's own and later responsibility to prevent a sensible law from becoming an outrageous one, and that, on the question of uncertainty, there never could be certainty in prediction, and if some possible event is undesirable then an unacceptable level of risk of its occurring will arise and preventive action will be taken on some considered balance of unavoidable sacrifice.
Moreover, since abortion is to be allowed for other reasons there is surely a barely distinguishable degree of deprivation for a fœtus that would have been born undamaged, but was deprived of life on the ground that it might have been born damaged, from the fœtus that was deprived of life on the ground that its birth would have endangered the physical or mental health of its mother. It is perhaps worth drawing the attention of the Roman Catholics to the opinion—which, I understand, though debated, is nevertheless medically respectable—that the effect of thalidomide was to prevent spontaneous abortions that would otherwise naturally have occurred; in other words (to speak for a moment metaphysically), to the possibility that it is Nature's broad intention that malformed fœtuses should never reach the point of birth.
The argument that certain, possibly the majority of, articulate malformed persons are prepared to say they are glad they were born (and this was an argument used by the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, on Second Reading) seems to me to be less an argument than evidence for an argument, and I am not sure that this evidence is admissible. Because, although it is not unimaginable that another answer may have been given, no answer to the question, "Are you glad you were born?" could be given on the basis of experience of the two alternatives, and no statement can be extracted from those to whom life was denied.
If this treatment of the argument looks absurd that is also what I consider the use of this argument for any purpose to be. But the difficulty remains that it is in principle impossible—it cannot be possible—to decide whether a life of a

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deformed person is worth living. After all, that is what generations of healthy men have philosophically debated about themselves.
The answer to the question whether abortion should be allowed in cases of likely deformity cannot be answered by a decision as to whether such lives are worth living, for we have no test by which we can arrive at an answer. It must therefore be decided by a different criterion, and because there is available an alternative criterion that must in any case be included in any permission for an abortion on these grounds, namely, the wish of the mother, and bolstered by the opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Brain, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, given on Second Reading, that abortion on these grounds would probably at this moment be legally permissible and that therefore to prohibit it statutorily now would in a certain sense be socially regressive, I shall vote for the rejection of this Amendment.
6.28 p.m.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: I rise to support in general the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Exeter. I am one who suspects that the executions are being carried out at the present time. I think there will be legislation about this, but I wanted to say that when I went to visit one of the joint Secretaries of the B.M.A. Committee the other day in this connection he handed me a paper produced in connection with Lord Silkin's Bill, printed in the Lancet on Saturday, January 1, 1966. The writer, he said, is an authority. Of course, there are others. He pointed out that there is at present neither statute law nor case law which supports the termination of pregnancy on behalf of the unborn child.
Is not the new clause something different in nature from the old clause? I thought that the defects in children which we discussed at Second Reading had regard to their impingement on the life of the mother. By this clause we are to terminate the life of an unborn child in its interest. I think that is new. However, the writer of this paper is in favour of so doing. But he produces a number of statements which really suggest, at any rate to me, that it would be extremely unwise to pass legislation until we have heard what the medical profession is going to say.
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In one paragraph in this very difficult paper there is a simple statement:
"Whenever healthy young parents have a baby"—
that is, all of us, or most of us, at one time or other—
"they are accepting a one-in-forty risk of serious defect."
He says that this risk must be counted as acceptable. I presume that that is axiomatic. If that risk is not accepted by a good many mothers, we fail to reproduce at all. He then points out at the other extreme, at the other end of the scale,
"If one parent manifests a dominant condition or has chromosomo mosaicism"—
and other expressions of the kind—
"the chance of defect in the offspring is one in two, a risk which might well be regarded as unacceptable."
He then goes on with a dissertation on what is probable, and surely he is able only to deal in statistics; no prediction is possible.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, on the Second Reading, said that accurate prediction in particular cases in most of these things we are considering is not possible. These figures suggest, he says. that the risk, at twice random (random is one in forty, the risk to which all of us are exposed) say, one in twenty, might generally be considered acceptable; but beyond that—and it is all a question of statistical risks—and one presumes that when the risk is one in ten, in many cases he would recommend that it should not he accepted. If ten are to go into the incinerator lest one should be severely deformed, should we not have something to say about it? Should we not know what the medical profession thinks suitable? It seems to me a terrible thing that people should be allowed to decide for themselves what to recommend. The situation is of tremendous complexity.
The writer enumerates fœtal indications for the termination of pregnancy, six under genetic, rubella, the only infection, irradiation, two sets of drugs and rhesus incompatibility, and he goes through disease after disease. Some of these cases survive for five, ten, fifteen years: it could even be twenty years. What are we to say about these comparative risks? Are we not to have these presented to us in intelligible form so that we may have

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something to say on how many hale and hearty infants go into the incinerator? I am sure that something will come on to the Statute Book in time, and my object in rising to-night is not to stop it, but to make it efficient, or, at least, not hopelessly wide and inefficient, as would seem to be the case if we passed this clause now. That is the only part about which I should like to comment. From all the medical people I saw, it was obvious that they dearly hope we shall not pass foolish statutory legislation on a subject so complicated before even they have had time to try to sort it out.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: May I say to the noble Earl that an interdepartmental committee sat 34 years ago on this question. They sat for two years, since when the organised medical profession have done nothing about it.
LORD TAYLOR: I only want to answer the right reverend Prelate. He asked a specific question of the medical profession, and I think we ought to give him a specific answer. It is quite simple. The highest probability which one can arrive at is one in four. This is the highest likelihood that one has to face at the moment, in the great majority of cases, and one has to decide whether it is right to sacrifice three children in order to ensure the non-birth of one grossly deformed child. That is the highest statistical figure. On the other hand, in the case of anencephaly, where children are born with defective head and brain, grossly deformed, of the kind which the right reverend Prelate was speaking about, it is possible to diagnose them by X-ray at the 32nd week. That will present certain problems when we come to a later part of the Bill, but the patients could be dealt with under Clause 1.
I think we ought to pass this clause, because I think the pædiatrician has the right to give an opinion here. And the pædiatrician to whom I am referring is the same one to whom the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, just referred, Dr. Smills, who is consultant pediatrician at the Alderhaye Hospital, Liverpool. He says:
"There are fatal indications for the termination of pregnancy which may be summarised as an unacceptably high risk of serious deformity or disease. The precise indications may change with advances in medicine and the pædiatrician must be prepared
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to advise his obstetric colleagues on the fœtal hazards in any particular situation."
I think the people who have to look after these children, when they are born, have a right to say something about it, to advise the mother; and if the mother and doctor are agreed, I think that action should be taken.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: May I put to the noble Lord this question, and I should like a clear answer to it. Is it not the case that in some cases it is possible to tell in advance with a reasonable degree of certainty, if not with absolute certainty, that tile child, if born, will be so abnormal that it cannot be said to have any prospect of normal or reasonable life? I am not talking about the thalidomide baby: but there may be other cases where there is the same degree of incapacity or inhumanity which cannot be foretold in advance. Does that sum up the position?
LORD TAYLOR: These are the anencephalic cases to which I referred. These are children one can detect only at 32 weeks, after pregnancy has gone a very long way. The child will not survive, anyway; or, if it does, it will be a log. If it is best for the mother and the child, action is obvious.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: I do not think there would be any objection to removing an anencephalic fœtus from the womb, and if it is necessary to enable such an abortion of anencephalic fœtus to be done, I personally should have no objection, because I should take the view—and I should, I think, be supported by the right reverend Prelate—that an anencephalic fœtus is not human.
6.39 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I promised at the beginning of the Committee stage that I would make no comments on questions of principle, and I do not intend to do so. But I also promised that I would try to put some facts where possible, and in view of the question which was put to my noble friend Lord Taylor by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, it may be useful if I mention some information which I have. It is that the highest proportion, or the highest degree of certainty, as it were, that a child may be deformed occurs with dominant and sex-linked

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genes. For example, a child of a person with Huntingdon's chorea has one chance in two of being affected, but one ought to add that this disease is, fortunately, so rare that only one baby in a quarter of a million births would be affected.
I also understand that with hæmophilia and a type of muscular dystrophy, the risk that the mother will have a second defective child is, again, one in two. But so far as my information goes, they are the highest proportions in particular diseases. I think the right reverend Prelate gave the risks of particular recessive disorders as one in four, which would accord with my information. I would point out to the right reverend Prelate, however, that he was wrong in saying that if there is a one-in-four chance of a child's being deformed, there is a four to one chance against its being deformed; the chances will be three to one against. I think this shows that the right reverend Prelate obviously chose the correct profession.
But the difficulty here is not, as was suggested by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark, to make a decision or to say that a child is physically or mentally so hideously malformed that it would be better for it not to be born. That is not the decision that has to be made on this Amendment—and I am expressing no opinion one way or the other. The decision that has to be made is whether the risk that this child of a pregnant woman will be deprived of any prospect of a reasonable enjoyment of life justifies—always assuming the mothers want it; there is no compulsion about it—the risk of aborting a child who might possibly be born healthy, for the sake of terminating pregnancy in one case out of the four where the child might have no reasonable prospect of life.
I should like to put to the noble and learned Viscount, since I think he mentioned that he was largely responsible for the drafting, that in our view, in order that a closer judgment might be made, some redrafting would be helpful. The noble and learned Viscount said that his intention was to make this proposed provision much more restrictive than the one originally in the Bill. Lord Taylor, on the other hand, thought this Amendment was much wider than the
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other. I would put it to the noble and learned Viscount that the words "likely to suffer", which appear in his Amendment, may be taken to mean more than a 50 per cent. chance, and that the paragraph as drafted implies that there has to be more than a 50 per cent. chance that the child will have no prospect of a reasonable enjoyment of life. According to my information, on that interpretation it is doubtful whether, in practice, a certificate could ever be properly given under this head by a doctor. Therefore, I would submit that that certainly could not be his intention.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The noble Lord says that a certificate could not properly be given under this head. That seems to me to depend upon whether or not, in the opinion of the doctors concerned, the conditions are satisfied. But if the doctors were of the opinion that the child, if born, would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to deprive it of any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life, then, and only then, under this particular provision would it be terminated. Surely that is much narrower than the provision which says that it can be terminated if there is a grave risk of a child being born grossly deformed, without regard to whether it has any possibility of enjoyment of life. That was in the original Bill. Surely that is much wider.
LORD STONHAM: I am agreeing with the noble and learned Viscount that the use of the word "likely", having regard to the medical facts, would make the interpretation of this Amendment so narrow that it would rarely apply, because, as I explained, according to my information the diseases which were most likely to produce an abnormal child were where the risk was one in two. I was trying to show that the word "likely" would appear to indicate that it had to be more than a 50 per cent. chance. Therefore, perhaps the noble and learned Viscount might feel that the words "substantial risk" would be preferable to "likely", and would indicate a less than 50 per cent. chance.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Certainly I will consider those words; but I did say what I meant, and I do not myself think that you can justify the termination of a potential human being by calculating the odds, whether it be three

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to one or four to one, and I deliberately used the word "likely". Going back to a phrase which no doubt is familiar to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, I think it must be an odds-on chance.
LORD STONHAM: It must be an odds-on chance. That is a phrase familiar to me, although all my life I have refrained from backing odds-on chances; and certainly, according to my information, there are no odds-on chances to be found in this case. As I understand it, the odds are almost always against an abnormal child being born. I am not expressing an opinion. The noble and learned Viscount is quite right in saying that the two doctors would have to make up their minds in a particular case. I suggest that they would be guided, in expressing an opinion as to whether it was likely that the child might be deformed, by the medical knowledge to which I have referred and the medical history and knowledge of whatever happened to the mother.
There is one perhaps lesser point which may be worth mentioning. I submit that it might be preferable that the effects of the physical or mental abnormalities should be described not as they are described here—
"deprived of any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life",
but that the child should be so affected physically and mentally as to deprive it of any reasonable prospect of living a normal life. This is a matter for consideration.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: Certainly I would consider that. But, quite frankly, that is not quite the concept in my mind. I should like to make that clear. You can say that a thalidomide baby has no prospect of living a normal life. But I would never regard a thalidomide baby as coming within this definition, because you could not say in advance that the odds were on its being unable to have any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life. I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing attention to that. I interrupted merely to make it clear that again I had deliberately refrained from that particular formula. But of course I will consider it, as, I am sure, will the noble Lord.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount. I feel that there may be some consensus of opinion on this. May I come to just one further point? The noble and learned Viscount said that if a mother was so distressed about this prospect she would probably come under paragraph (a). But what about the mother who may be convinced that she should not have the baby, but is not so distressed as to justify termination on the grounds of her own health? That is another case that would have to be considered, and it might be quite a substantial case. I hope that those factual points may have been helpful. I will make no other comments.
6.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTON: I am sorry to speak at so late an hour, but at the risk of differing diametrically from the two speakers to whom I most enjoy listening, the noble Lord, the Lord Soper, and the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, I should like to say that I warmly support this Amendment put down by the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Exeter. If the Bill goes through, I feel for two reasons that it should go through with this Amendment, one on agnostic grounds and one on Christian grounds. On agnostic grounds the case was clearly put by my noble friend Lord Amulree, who said that we do not know enough about what children are going to be like. I would go further and say that we do not know enough about what human beings are for, whether their purpose in the universe is to lead a "reasonably enjoyable life", or, in fact, what a reasonably enjoyable life is.
The noble Lord, Lord Soper, said that he could not understand the suggestion that a fætus could have a right to live, and he courageously used the words "an unborn child", because people have more sympathy with that. The noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said something of the same kind on Second Reading, without going quite so far. She thought that its right to live, compared with that of the mother, was negligible. That is where my agnosticism comes in. I think that it was Dorothy Parker who, when she was told that President Coolidge was dead, said "How do they know?" That is what I am inclined to ask when I am told that a fætus is not a person. I know

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that in law "person" is a tiresome word; it can mean "a corporation", and so on; but to the ordinary layman the definition would be "the living body of a human being"; and if a human fætus is not the living body of a human being I should like to know what it is. If it is not living, why is it necessary to kill it? If it is not a body, can you perform an abortion on it? And if it is not the body of a human being what is it of?
The right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Exeter, in his excellent speech on Second Reading said one thing which I could not quite follow. He clearly stated the view which, failing anything to the contrary to convince me, I believe: that from the moment of conception it is a human being. But he said that it is also possible, and orthodox, to regard it as a "potential human being". I am in Lord Soper's position, in that I do not quite know what that means. If you say that somebody is a potential violinist you mean that he may become a violinist, but may take up the bassoon; or he may not become a musician at all. On the other hand, a fætus, if a human fætus, does not have a choice of becoming either an ostrich or a kangaroo.
There are two senses in which the word "potential" can be construed. In one sense every living person in this country is a potential Member of your Lordships' House, in that nobody knows that he or she or they (in the case of Siamese twins) may not be given a peerage. The other sense in which a man is a potential Member of your Lordships' House is where he is the eldest son of a hereditary Peer. As long as hereditary Peers exist in your Lordships' House, and as long as your Lordships' House goes on, failing any attempt to deprive it of that right by force, such a person would he a potential Peer. Personally I am not convinced that one is any more right or more wrong to kill a fætus than to kill a grown being.
I do not want to go on at length but I understand that there are scientific grounds for rejecting the medieval idea that the soul comes in only after twenty days. At that time it was thought to be a vegetable for the first ten days, because that is what the embryo looks like, seen through the naked eye, without a microscope. After 20 days it was considered to be an animal and—the noble Baroness,
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will think this a typically mediæval ideal—that the female soul came only after 80 days. I believe that was not a piece of anti-feminism, but if one looks at it without a microscope one can see the organs which differentiate the sex embryo after 80 days. The assumption was that before that they were all male. What I am trying to suggest is that we do not know enough about what life is for to decide whether we are entitled to kill a fœtus on one or other ground, let alone to kill it for its own good. One would like it to be consulted; unfortunately, of course it cannot be consulted, but I feel that somebody in this House should give its point of view.
I remember an epitaph by the late Professor Housman about young men who died in the war, which went something like this:
"We fought and died because we did not choose to live;
To live, and shame the land from which we sprung.
Life, to be sure is, nothing much to lose;
But young men think it is—and we were young."
A fœtus, if it could write its own epitaph, might write on these lines:
"We died unborn, because you did not choose When the time came, to let us pass the portal.
Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose;
But mortals think it is; and we were mortal."
Those are some of my agnostic grounds for supporting the Bishop of Exeter's Amendment.
On Christian grounds I will only ask the noble Lord, Lord Soper, whether, when he says that no unborn child has a right to live, he would include in that definition Christ, who at one time was certainly an unborn child. It is not a frivolous question and I think not blasphemous; and I believe it is important. One of the things I am agnostic about is the judgment of even the best of people with great experience. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Soper, I am not responsible for fifteen illegitimate girls—
LORD SOPER: I meant that I visit them.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTON: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. When there has been a large consensus of opinion among responsible people as to whether or not a man is fit to live, I do not believe the answer has always been right, even when

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it has been nearly unanimous. I can only think in history of one opinion that comes to mind which was as unanimous as possible. It occurred a long time ago when the representatives of the Occupying Power, of what would be called the Quisling Government, of the patriotic partisans, of what was the equivalent of the Established Church, and even of His very few supporters, all agreed that this Man was not fit to live. I am referring, of course, to Pilate, Herod, Barabbas, Caiaphas and St. Peter. They may have been right to believe that, although St. Peter afterwards thought not. I should find it difficult to believe that that was right and to continue to be a Christian. On those two grounds I support this Amendment, but I may have more to say later.
LORD SOPER: I only want to say that I have been asked a direct question and perhaps I may make a brief reply. I do not believe in the idea of life as instant, in the same sense as we have instant coffee. I believe that any attempt to deal with this problem in static terms defeats its own ends, and the very words we use, as the linguistic philosophers have persuaded us. are irrelevant and finally are obstructive to true thought. I should have thought that the answer in general terms to the question that was asked of me was, that when you are thinking of life you are thinking of something which is imprecise. The only sort of life that I, as a professing Christian, would believe to be sacred is that which comes in the teaching of Tennant and Ward—self-conscious life. When life has acquired self-consciousness, then I believe it has a sanctity.
VISCOUNT BARRINGTON: I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his remarks. I will not comment on them, but I thoroughly appreciate them.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: May I add just a word? Listening to this debate, I get the feeling that most of your Lordships—indeed, all of your Lordships—would welcome its being a ground for abortion if it could certainly be said that, if born, the child either would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as would deprive it of any prospect of reasonable enjoyment of life, or, as originally drafted, would be
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"born grossly deformed and with other serious physical or mental abnormality".
Indeed, I go further and think that most of your Lordships would approve of abortion if it could be said, although not with certainty, with reasonable certainty.
What it really comes to, in my mind, is: what is meant here by "likely"? If "likely" really means more probable than not, then let us say so and decide whether people will agree on that basis. But if it means quite likely, one in four as we have been told, then I think most of your Lordships—certainly, I myself—would violently oppose this Amendment. Therefore, my first point is: let us say what we mean before we vote on it.
The other point is this. I do not think that any of your Lordships would wish to narrow the scope of the grounds for abortion as interpreted by the judges at the moment. We do not want to narrow the scope if anything we want to be more liberal. I think myself that the judges interpret the law at the moment in accordance with paragraph (a), and that paragraph (b) is very apt to lead to a narrowing of the scope.
The medical practitioner will say to himself, "I am dealing now with a case where there is some risk "—let us put it like that—" of the child, if born, being grossly deformed. That is the subject matter with which I am dealing. I can only certify with regard to such a matter in relation to certain factors." Therefore, he may never come to consider the matter as I think he should under paragraph (a). I think the difficulty can be cured by a matter of words. It may be a question of saying:
"Provided that such two registered medical practitioners certify in writing that the termination is necessary on one or more of the following grounds…."
At the moment they look to be exclusive grounds, and I think there is a real danger that the clause would he interpreted in such a way as to be less liberal than the interpretation of the judges at the moment. I think that those two matters ought to be cleared up.
7.4 p.m.
LORD COLERAINE: I am disposed, myself, to support the right reverend Prelate if he pushes his Amendment to a Division and I would do so, I think, for one reason, which is this. It seems to me that it is impossible for a third party

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to judge, either of the usefulness of a human life or of the capacity for enjoyment of a human being. I do not myself believe that two doctors, however eminent, can, except in a very limited number of cases, say that if the fœtus has such-and-such a disease that human being will not enjoy life. What would have happened, for example, if Helen Keller's condition could have been identified when she was a fœtus in the womb? Would the two doctors have said, "This fœtus is going to be born deaf, dumb and blind. There is no reasonable possibility of enjoyment of life. Therefore, this life must be terminated"? If this Bill had been an Act in the United States, and if this had happened, I think a terrible thing would have been done.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, dropped a remark, I think, about the hæmophiliac, saying that there was one chance in three of identifying the hæmophiliac. But is it meant that the existence as a fœtus of a hæmophiliac would be terminated under this Bill?
LORD STONHAM: Obviously, the mother or both parents would be known to be hæmophiliacs. But what I said was that if the mother was a hemophiliac, then out of two births it was likely that one child would be deformed.
LORD COLERAINE: Yes, but what I am trying to get at is whether on that basis it would be possible, under this Bill, to terminate the existence of a putative hæmophiliac, because, again, I think that would be very wrong. I have only known one hæmophtliac and he lived well into the thirties. He lived a life which he enjoyed himself, and which gave much enjoyment to others, and I am fearful that under Clause 1, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has moved the Amendment, such an existence might have been terminated.
LORD SILKIN: I think that the Committee is probably now ready to make up its mind as to whether or not it wants paragraph (b). The first thing I would say is that, in accordance with the way in which. I dealt with this Bill on Second Reading, I have listened to the various criticisms which have been made about this clause. I think, apart from the general principle to which the right reverend Prelate has made reference—
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the question of taking life—there are two objections to this clause as it stands.
One is the question of the amount of risk of a child being born defective, and may I say to the noble and learned Viscount that I did not understand that the risk was to be more than a substantial risk. When I accepted his wording, I was under the impression that one in three or one in four would have been a risk sufficient to justify an abortion. But in view of the doubt, I think that some clearer language ought to be used.
The other objection is the question of enjoyment of life. That seems to have given a number of noble Lords some doubts about this clause. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine. How can two doctors say that a particular child, if born, would not enjoy life because it was very severely handicapped? He referred to the case of Helen Keller, and I must confess that the case of Helen Keller caused me very grave doubt, too. I do not know whether she enjoyed life or not, but certainly she was a very considerable figure and made a great impression on life. But there has been only one Helen Keller.
Noble Lords have referred to their own experience. I was for a number of years chairman of a hospital which dealt with cases of the kind I have in mind. There were children who were blind, deaf and dumb, and sometimes without legs and arms. It was difficult to conceive that such children could lead a normal life, or that their lives were worth living. It is true that a good deal of love and affection was bestowed upon them, but I could not help feeling sometimes that that love and affection could have been better bestowed upon other children who could have appreciated it more—and among most people there is not an infinite capacity for love and affection. If it is bestowed on some, then it is generally at the expense of others. Usually, we are told, the mother bestows her love and affection on the particular child who is most afflicted, but more often than not the other children suffer to a certain extent.
I think that the provision in paragraph (b) will probably have to be reworded. We know what we want to say, but I am not certain about the word "risk"; and one ought to be able to find a clearer

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criterion than merely "enjoyment of life".
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: If the noble Lord will forgive my interrupting him, may I say, on the question of rewording, that I have prominently in my mind whether he intends "likely" to mean one in three or one in four; whether he means to refer to a substantial risk—and "substantial" is something more than 50 per cent. in certain circumstances—whether he really means "more probable than not" or "almost certain".
LORD SILKIN: I certainly do not mean "more probable than not". I think that is too difficult a criterion. It would be a substantial, but not a majority, risk.
The noble and learned Viscount spoke about the difficulty of reconciling paragraph (b) with paragraph (a). I think his point could be met in the way he suggests. One would be very willing to amend—it would mean amending the proviso—to meet the point that it should be on one or more of the grounds. If the Committee could accept the general doctrine—I know there might be some difference of opinion whether the doctors must be satisfied that the chances of a child being born defective are greater than otherwise; they must be satisfied about that, but, subject to that—I think the clause could be generally adapted to meet the views of the Committee as a whole. After all, the safeguarding point is that if the two doctors are not able to certify, if they feel any doubt about it, they are not obliged to certify. They can say, "We are not satisfied that it is likely that the child will be born in this way"; and, unless they can grant an abortion on some other ground, then there will be no abortion, and that will be the end of it, except that possibly such a person may he driven to a back-street abortionist, as they are now in many cases.
But the real objection to this provision in paragraph (b) is not that at all. I cannot help thinking that the right reverend Prelate put those matters forward as a make-weight, because, even if there were 100 per cent. certainty, he is not at all sure that he would agree to the inclusion of this paragraph. If doctors could say, as they might well say, that there was a very substantial risk, at any
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rate, that this would happen, he would still not agree with paragraph (b).
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: I am not sure. Since I have been studying some of the work of a pædiatrician, I am not at all sure that, if there were a 100 per cent. certainty of diagnosis in certain cases, I might not be with him.
LORD SILKIN: I am rather surprised, because I thought the right reverend Prelate's real objection to this provision was that it was taking life, and that it was taking life not in the interest of the mother—she comes under paragraph (a). This is taking life in the interests of the child, and I thought that that was something to which he strongly objected—and he would presumably object to it under paragraph (c), as he said, and under paragraph (d). I cannot think that there is any difference in principle between paragraphs (b), (c) and (d). There may be different circumstances, but, in principle, if you can accept the fact that it is not necessarily in the interests of the mother but in the interests of the child that there shall be an abortion, then it is considerably widening the doctrine for which the right reverend Prelate has been standing.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: Indeed, I am aware of that. It does in fact introduce a new principle. I am by no means certain that I do accept it, although my sentimentality is tempted to accept it. But I should like to have much further consultation with the medical profession to find out precisely how this new principle can be defined.
LORD SILKIN: The right reverend Prelate said that this is not a new principle, but it is a new principle. His principle was: if it is a case of the mother against the child, then, reluctantly, the child must be sacrificed. He is now going beyond that and saying, "If there is a 100 per cent. chance". He must really face it, that he is sacrificing his principle.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: Then I shall have to withdraw what I have just said and stick to my principles.
LORD SILKIN: The right reverend Prelate is going to do that anyway if it comes to a vote, but he will be doing it, if I may respectfully say so, under the guise of principle, really using the other factors as additional argument—that is, as to the risk.

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I know that my noble friend has put forward figures as to the risks in particular diseases, but he has not referred to the medical histories, and the medical histories of many cases are known. Suppose a mother has already given birth to three children who might be said to come within the category of paragraph (b), and suppose she is pregnant and about to give birth to a fourth. There is no ground for granting an abortion under paragraph (a). I admit that this is a highly problematical case, and that there are few such cases that arise. Should these doctors grant an abortion under paragraph (b)? They know that three children have already been born who are abnormal and afflicted. They hear the family history and hear that there is an aunt who is in the same condition. Surely, the chances there are more than one in three or one in four. Surely a doctor could say, almost with certainty, that the next child would be in the same condition as the three who have already been born.
Moreover, this Bill when it becomes law will not be an Act that will stand for a day or two; it will probably remain in force without amendment for many years. Within that time one hopes that medical research will enable us to predict with much greater certainty the quality and character of a child that is to be born. Whereas to-day it cannot be said, until in some cases pregnancy is far advanced, what will be the condition of the child, surely one can look forward to the time when it will be possible to state it with reasonable assurance. I hope that this clause will he readily available for such a time.
I trust, therefore, that the Committee will be prepared to allow this clause to go through, with the assurance that it will be amended. We are going to get the help of the Parliamentary draftsman and I am prepared to consult with the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, and with anybody else who is interested, to ensure that we get a provision which will satisfy the whole House. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will be ready to agree to the clause as it stands.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I should like to say a word or two, in view of what the noble Lord has said. I think we really cannot leave it to Parliamentary Counsel to resolve a difference of interpretation; though he can draft and put
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our ideas into proper Parliamentary language. I must say I never thought that if the odds are regarded as four to one against you, you are considered to have a likely chance of winning. I did mean that "likely". I drafted those words as the Committee know. I meant that the probability was that the result would he that the child, if horn, would be in this particular condition. "More probably than not," was the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Parker of Waddington. I should he content with that. I think the right reverend Prelate interpreted "likely" in the other way, as if it were no more than three to one or four to one against.
LORD SILKIN: It is my Amendment and not the noble and learned Viscount's.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I know the noble Lords says that; but, as he also says, I wrote it.
LORD SILKIN: I accepted it on that understanding; and I am responsible for the Amendment to-day.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I am not seeking to take any responsibility away from the noble Lord. It is unfortunate that apparently, in the best of friendly discussions, we interpreted this differently. But it is because of that difference of interpretation that it is not really very easy just to say that we should let it go and that we should leave it to Parliamentary Counsel. I am in favour of accepting Parliamentary Counsel's help; but I think we ought to see whether we can reach a decision on what the whole House wants to achieve. I should hope, if the interpretataion was "more probable than not", that the right reverend Prelate might, more probably than not, withdraw his Amendment. If that is not so, I would make it clear that I will vote against his Amendment, on the ground that my interpretation of the world "likely" in this context is that it is "more likely to happen than not"; and I hope it will be more likely to happen than not that we shall defeat the Amendment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER: I am sorry; but I find here a real matter of principle. I cannot withdraw my Amendment and I think I must force the Committee to a Division. I had hoped

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that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, would have asked the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to withdraw whoever's Amendment it is; because it is clear that very few people have read into the Amendment what the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, has intended it to be. If the Amendment does mean what the noble and learned Viscount intends it
Resolved in the negative, and Amendment to Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
LORD SILKIN: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Lord Silkin.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that Her Majesty had (by Commission) revoked certain Letters Patent and had appointed the Chairman of Com-
to mean, then it will not permit a single abortion at all; and it is much better out of the Bill. I regret to say that I must stand by my Amendment.
7.26 p.m.
On Question, Whether the Amendment to the Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 20; Not-Contents, 55.

CONTENTS

Auckland, L.

Exeter, Bp.

Lytton, E.

Audley, B.

Falmouth, V.

Newcastle, Bp.

Barrington, V. [Teller.]

Ferrers, E.

St. Albans, Bp. [Teller.]

Canterbury, Abp.

Grenfell, L.

St. Just, L.

Coleraine, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Strange, L.

Effingham, E.

Inglewood, L.

Ypres, E.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Longford, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V. [Teller.]

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Reay, L.

Arwyn, L.

Gifford, L.

Royle, L. [Teller.]

Balerno, L.

Goschen, V.

Rusholme, L.

Beswick, L.

Haire of Whiteabbey, L.

Sandford, L.

Blyton, L.

Hawke, L.

Selkirk, E.

Bowles, L.

Hertford, M.

Shannon, E.

Burden, L.

Lambert, V.

Shepherd, L.

Champion, L.

Leatherland, L.

Silkin, L.

Collison, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Somers, L.

Conesford, L.

Molson, L.

Soper, L.

Daventry, V.

Morris of Borth-y-Gest, L.

Stonham, L.

Denham, L.

Morrison, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Dilhorne, V.

Moyne, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Dinevor, L.

Newall, L.

Summerskill, Bs.

Drumalbyn, L.

Newton, L.

Taylor, L.

Elliot of Harwood, Bs.

Oakshott, L.

Wade, L.

Falkland, V.

Parker of Waddington, L.

Wellington, D.

Ferrier, L.

Raglan, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Forster of Harraby, L.

mittees for the time being, the Lord Merthyr, the Earl of Listowel, the Lord Blackford, the Lord Rea, the Lord Ailwyn, the Lord Amulree, the Earl St. Aldwyn, the Lord Crook, the Lord Airedale, the Lord Jessel, the Lord Archibald, the Lord Douglas of Barloch, the Lord Strang, the Viscount Goschen, the Lord Grenfell, the Lord Shepherd, the Lord Conesford, and the Baroness Wootton of Abinger, Speakers of the House in the absence of the Lord Chancellor: the said Commission was read.
House adjourned at twenty-four minutes before eight o'clock.