Sitting of 23 November 1965

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  COVENT GARDEN MARKET BILL
  As Amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
CLYDE NAVIGATION (SUPERANNUATION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  GLASGOW CORPORATION (No. 2) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time tomorrow.
  CLYDE PORT AUTHORITY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read a Second time; to be considered tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF POWER

    Pit Closures
    Sir W. Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on pit closures, in the light of his correspondence with the Chairman of the National Coal Board in connection with the Question of the right hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian on 2nd November.
    The Minister of Power (Mr. Frederick Lee): I propose to discuss this matter in the course of the debate on the Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill on Thursday.
    Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the letter sent to me by the Chairman of the Board was completely uninformative? Is he further aware that there is a feeling, certainly in
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    Scotland, that we are being kept very much in the dark about the extent of the proposed pit closures? Can he give us an undertaking that he will put the facts before us so that we may know whether or not we should endeavour to make representations?
    Mr. Lee: I am surprised to hear this because, from what I have read in the Press, people seem to have been very well informed indeed, but certainly I will try to make the situation as clear as possible on Thursday.
    Mr. Alisonasked the Minister of Power if he will make available to hon. Members in a White Paper the information on pit closures announced by divisional boards on Thursday, 18th November, 1965.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I think that it would be more appropriate for the information to be available in the Vote Office, and I have arranged this.
    Mr. Alison: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have seen this information and that half a dozen stapled foolscap sheets with a list of the collieries to be closed is hardly an adequate substitute for a comprehensive White Paper on the eve of an important debate on this matter? Is he aware that this situation will affect hundreds of constituencies? Will he think again and provide us with a White Paper with a full analysis of the closures as soon as possible?
    Mr. Lee: I have received no such complaint until today. It certainly is not any objective of mine to leave people under any illusions about this. I will have a look at it again and, if necessary, see what I can do about it.
    Mr. Peyton: I am encouraged by the right hon. Gentleman's attitude, but does he not realise that this is the first opportunity that the House of Commons has had of verbally complaining to him and we are now doing this? Will he bear in mind that the Bill that we are to consider on Thursday demands the writing off of £415 million and that in these circumstances the House of Commons is entitled in the national interest to the fullest possible information?
    Mr. Lee: It may have escaped the hon. Gentleman's notice that in the last few

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    weeks we have published two White Papers, one on our general fuel policy and one specifically on colliery closures. I should have thought that the information contained in these White Papers dealt adequately with the points the hon. Gentleman is now raising.

    Nationalised Industries (General Directions)
    Sir R. Nugentasked the Minister of Power to what extent it is his policy to direct the nationalised industries for which he is responsible to adopt policies other than those dictated by their commercial interests.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No occasion has arisen for me to issue a general direction. Where boards, in response to the Government's views, act otherwise than in their commercial interest, the procedures of Command 1337 are followed.
    Sir R. Nugent: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that interference with the price of the area gas boards by him-self and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs has raised a doubt about Government policy? Does he realise how much this interference weakens and discourages the efficiency and independence of management of these industries? Will he please refrain from using this as an instrument of Government economic policy?
    Mr. Lee: I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is now divorcing himself from the White Paper issued by the Government of which he was a member.
    Mr. Peyton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the point made by my hon. Friend is that the principles of the White Paper to which he has referred should remain inviolate? What has happened, we suspect, is that interventions by his right hon. Friend the First Secretary are proving absolutely disastrous to those principles.
    Mr. Lee: I think the hon. Gentleman will find at the end of the quinquennium that the principles contained in the White Paper have not been violated in any way.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Is it not correct that the previous Administration interfered time and time again with the pricing
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    policy of the Coal Board, and, in particular, is it not the case that the former Prime Minister but one, or two, or three, whatever it was, interfered with fares in London for purely political purposes?
    Mr. Lee: Yes, of course, Governments have intervened. Otherwise, one of the good effects of nationalised industry would be lost.

    Area Gas Boards (Prices)
    Sir R. Nugentasked the Minister of Power whether he will introduce legislation to give himself the power to control the price of gas sold by area gas boards.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir.
    Sir R. Nugent: Is the Minister aware that Parliament has not given him statutory powers to control the prices of the nationalised industries under his care? Will he, therefore, ask Parliament to give him such powers if he wants to control these prices? If not, will he refrain from doing so?
    Mr. Lee: To answer the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I return to an earlier Answer. The method by which Parliament and the Government in fact condition these things is by the use of Command Paper 1337.

    Electricity (Maximum Charges)
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Minister of Power (1) if he will seek power to appoint inspectors to look into complaints from tenants who believe that they are being charged for electricity in excess of the maximum charges laid down by the electricity boards;
    (2) whether he will introduce the appropriate legislation to enable electricity boards to enforce maximum charges fixed under Section 29 of the Electricity Act, 1957.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Mr. John Morris): No, Sir, but as I have already made clear, my right hon. Friend is prepared to look into abuses and reconsider the matter if it is shown that there is a genuine need for strengthening the means of enforcement.
    Mr. Walker: Is the Minister aware that without some form of inspection, either by the electricity boards or the

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    Ministry, it is almost impossible for tenants to obtain the required evidence to enable them to bring cases to the courts? Would it not be much easier to make these powers enforceable by the electricity boards themselves?
    Mr. Morris: We have tackled this problem very speedily. We have decided to see how the present arrangements work and we have asked the electricity consultative councils to report back to us. If further action is needed, I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will take it.

    Energy Advisory Committee
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Power if he will amend the composition of his Energy Advisory Committee to include a substantial number of independent experts, scientific, engineering and economic.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir.
    Mr. Palmer: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the usefulness of the present Energy Advisory Committee is limited because it cannot give any genuinely independent advice? In view of that, will my right hon. Friend please take seriously the suggestion made in the Question?
    Mr. Lee: I hope that I always take suggestions seriously. When there is an occasion for the Council to have special advice I invite such gentlemen to attend. Indeed, I have already had the advantage of having the assistance of the Chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board and, on one occasion, the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Authority as well.

    Advisory Council on Research and Development
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Power how often his Advisory Council on Research and Development meets; what are the nature and frequency of its reports; how many of its reports have received his approval; and to whom, when approved, the reports are sent for implementation.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The Council meets and advises me at about two-monthly intervals. Its advice deals broadly with the objectives, major projects, balance of effort and degree of co-ordination of
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    research and development by the fuel and power industries. Its influence is achieved in two ways; first, through the deliberations of the Council, which includes representatives of the nationalised fuel and power industries amongst its members, and, secondly, through the discussions which I have with their chairmen on the basis of its advice.
    Mr. Palmer: Does my right hon. Friend feel that the Advisory Council on Research and Development is assisting towards the closer working together from the technical point of view of the fuel and power industries?
    Mr. Lee: I do indeed. The Advisory Council is doing a first-class job and I am sure that the whole House will agree when I say how indebted we are to Lord Fleck, who served as chairman for so many years, for the work that has already been done.
    Sir Beresford Craddock: Would the Minister say whether research is continuing into the production of smokeless fuels, with particular regard to the more efficient production of these fuels, at cheaper prices?
    Mr. Lee: Yes, indeed. A great deal of work is being done on this subject.

    Scottish Gas Board (Smoke Control Orders)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Minister of Power whether he is satisfied with the provision made by the Scottish Gas Board to assist householders affected by smoke control orders; and whether he will give a general direction to the Board to take steps to ensure that there will be no difficulties in areas to be affected by future smoke control orders.
    Mr. John Morris: The Board makes every effort to meet householders' requirements in these areas. No particular difficulty is expected to arise under forthcoming new orders in Scotland.
    Mr. Taylor: Would the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the situation in Cathcart? Is he aware that some of the residents there who are affected by the order were told by the Board's salesmen that they would have to wait for only a matter of days or weeks for gas appliances, but that in some cases they

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    Lave had to wait for more than four months because of alleged unprecedented demand—while at the same time the Board's salesmen have been promising speedy delivery and have, thereby, been creating a greater demand? Will he see that this mistake is not made again?
    Mr. Morris: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the suggestion in the first part of his supplementary question. I am aware of some of the matters which he alleges. There has been some delay in the supply and fitting of appliances in regard to a smoke control area of Glasgow. This has been due in part to the heavy demand on the manufacturers of the appliances and the Board's staff who equip these appliances. I understand that installation will be completed by the end of the year, which will be three months after the due date. The Board has undertaken to see that no similar difficulties arise under forthcoming control orders.

    Scottish Gas Board (General Directions)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Minister of Power what new general directions he will give to the Scottish Gas Board, following receipt of the Board's annual report.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: None, Sir.
    Mr. Taylor: Is the Minister not aware that the activities of the Scottish Gas Board have become a national scandal? If he feels that a complacent attitude on this matter is satisfied, would the right hon. Gentleman talk to some of the residents in Scotland who have suffered a 6 per cent. price increase in February and who are now faced with a further increase of 13 per cent.
    Mr. Lee: There is no question of my having any complacency about this matter. I am aware of the difficulties which the Scottish Gas Board has had, but they are issues in which I have no statutory powers to intervene. Indeed, these matters go to the Consultative Council; and if the Council refers any matter to me then I can intervene.

    Nationalised Industries (Prices and Tariffs)
    Mr. Peytonasked the Minister of Power what machinery exists for co-
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    ordination between his Department and the Department of Economic Affairs concerning proposals by boards of nationalised industries to increase prices and tariffs.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The normal arrangements apply for close and constant liaison between Departments.
    Mr. Peyton: Is the right hon. Gentleman really not aware that by far the best form of co-ordination between his Department and that of his right hon. Friend would be for him to tell his right hon. Friend not to interfere in matters with which he is not competent to deal and about which he knows nothing?
    Mr. Lee: I will inform my right hon. Friend of the hon. Gentleman's opinion.

    West Durham (Industrial Development)
    Mr. Armstrongasked the Minister of Power what proposals he has, following Command Paper No. 2805, to allocate special funds to provide alternative industrial development in West Durham, which has become an urgent priority due to the pending redundancy at Brancepeth, waterhouses and Esh Winning collieries.
    Mr. John Morris: My right hon. Friend will be speaking about the special funds generally during the debate on the Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill on Thursday.
    Mr. Armstrong: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind before Thursday that this is a very urgent matter indeed and that, as well as funds being made available, he might endeavour to prevent any pit closures before alternative industry is provided?
    Mr. Morris: I understand the concern that is felt about special funds. There have been discussions with the National Union of Mineworkers on this matter and perhaps the whole subject will be canvassed on Thursday.

    North Sea (Oil)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Power if he will state the nature, kind, extent and result of his investigations into the effect of the discovery of oil in the North Sea for which he has given licences on the fish shoals

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    and on the number and fertility of fish in the North Sea.
    Mr. John Morris: Offshore drilling and oil production in other parts of the world appears to have had no adverse effect on fish. I have no evidence to suggest that the effects will be different in the North Sea.
    Mr. Hughes: My Question does not deal with other parts of the world. Does my hon. Friend realise that the fishing industry of the North Sea is of particular interest to the trade, industry and employment of Aberdeen as well as to the fish consumers of this country? Will he abandon this secrecy and publish the facts?
    Mr. Morris: My hon. and learned Friend invites me to abandon secrecy and publish the facts. I should, perhaps, inform him, first, that the operations in the North Sea will affect only a fraction of the sea area while, secondly, I understand that landings of fish from the North Sea last year were better than in the previous year.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Would the Parliamentary Secretary make available the information he has about the effect on fish in the area around the oil drills off the American Continent?
    Mr. Morris: I will certainly look into that matter, but perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will put down a Question.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Power if he will make it a condition of future licences issued by him to companies to drill for oil in the North Sea that they should keep him fully informed of their progress and the quantities of oil discovered, with a view to his publishing this information.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Under the regulations approved by Parliament, the full information which I receive from licensees is given me on a confidential basis.
    Mr. Hughes: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that the North Sea is not private property but public property and that the public is entitled to the fullest information about the North Sea? Will my right hon. Friend see that all the information is published?
    Mr. Lee: My hon. and learned Friend should be graceful enough to acknowledge that the Opposition nationalised the North Sea and that it is, in fact, public property. Frankly, if this information were divulged it would mean that a number of people who now hold licences would merely wait for other people to fail, and then not drill.
    Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Minister of Power whether, in granting licences for exploration of the North Sea bed, he takes into account the availability of drilling rigs and ancillary equipment.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is widespread concern at the reported delay in delivery, which I understand to be four months and in some cases even five months? Can he tell the House whether delays in this vital installation programme are the result of industrial disputes in the shipyards, or where is the responsibility?
    Mr. Lee: No. I do not think so. I understand that there are some delays, but at the moment I think there are five rigs drilling and we expect that this number will be raised to at least 13 by the second half of next year.

    Coal, Gas and Electricity Industries (Advertising)
    Mr. McGuireasked the Minister of Power if he will issue general directions, in the public interest, to the boards of the nationalised coal, gas and electricity industries to reduce the competition between them, with particular reference to sales promotion practices connected with the sale of domestic heating equipment.
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction to the gas and electricity industries to cease advertising their products until they are able to meet the demands of their existing customers.
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Minister of Power whether he will,give a general direction, in the public interest, to electricity and gas area boards to cease advertising until they are able to meet consumer demands.
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Minister of Power what plans he has for reviewing the advertising campaigns of the gas and electricity industries.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Following discussions with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and myself, the chairmen of the rationalised fuel industries have agreed to discontinue advertising, both national and local, with certain minor exceptions, for a period of three months from 1st December, 1965.
    Mr. McGuire: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the reasons why the gas shortage has been aggravated is the high pressure and despicable sales methods of gas boards? Is he aware that I have with me details of the condemnation of these methods by a judge in a case where a gas board sent a salesman round at a very low basic wage on the pretence of inspecting equipment but with the real job of selling new equipment? Is my right hon. Friend aware that this has aggravated the situation outlined in the House last week, and will he do something about it?
    Mr. Lee: I do not think that that subject is covered by my hon. Friend's Question or by the Answer which I gave to it. I was merely talking about advertising.
    Mr. Taney: Would the Minister bear in mind the advantages of oil heating and private enterprise?
    Mr. Lee: There are great advantages in all these kinds of fuel, but I should have thought it inappropriate at this moment for the public to be confronted by advertisements of this kind when they know that there is a danger of cuts, and so on.
    Mr. Fisher: Is the Minister aware that his decision—taken, of course, since these Questions were put down—will be generally welcomed by the public, who found it a little irritating to find their own supplies cut when these advertisements were still circulating? But why does he now try to include oil in this respect? After all, oil can be supplied—why should it not be advertised?
    Mr. Lee: In some areas, all fuel can be supplied. It would therefore seem to me to be better—although national advertisements may be all right in a large
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    part of the country but are not applicable to certain areas—not to advertise at all during this period. The oil industry has understood this very well, and has cooperated with us.
    Mr. Kelley: Would not my right hon. Friend consider that it would be in the national interest to promote the sale of coal while stocks are available, and so relieve the pressure on gas and electricity?
    Mr. Lee: I can assure my hon. Friend that nothing we will do will prevent the National Coal Board or distributors of coal from attempting to do more than they have been doing.
    Mr. Osborn: Would not the Minister agree that now is the time to promote the sale of oil, if there are ready supplies that can be used, and not discourage its sale by discouraging advertising?
    Mr. Lee: I thought that I had answered that point when I referred to the different positions in the different regions. There are occasions when electricity, gas and oil are in plentiful supply, as well as coal, but I think that all of them come into the same category.

    Electricity Supplies
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied about the security of electricity supply in the Gravesend and Northfleet area during the next six months; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Rhodesasked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied about the security of the electricity supply to consumers in the North Eastern Electricity Board area in meeting the additional demands upon it during the winter months; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The distribution systems of the North Eastern and the South Eastern Electricity Boards are generally adequate to meet expected demands this winter, although local difficulties cannot be excluded. But if national demand overloads the available generating capacity or the main transmission system, area electricity boards would be required to reduce load.
    Mr. Murray: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but would he confirm that over the last year the capacity at the Northfleet power station was reduced by 100,000 kilowatts? Will he

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    see that this position does not recur in the future?
    Mr. Lee: I could not give the answer in regard to the specific amount that my hon. Friend mentions, but I can assure him that we are certainly doing everything possible, in conjunction with the industry, to ensure that adequate supplies are maintained. If the weather conditions make it inevitable that there should be cuts, I am afraid that this year they will take place.
    Mr. Rhodes: As one knows that electricity generating plant takes about five years to manufacture—and I have a large manufacturing concern in my constituency—would my right hon. Friend tell me whether the present situation in the North-East is the result of under-estimation of the demand in the early 'sixties in the plans approved by the party opposite?
    Mr. Lee: The Generating Board was basing itself this year on a plant margin of about 14 per cent. It is the case that if there is an under-estimate in, say, 1960, inevitably one will not meet the demand in 1965 in adverse conditions. It is also the case that in making its estimates, the Board has to take into account the outage of plant, the inaccuracy that can take place in load forecasting and in forecasting the weather. It is true that we have now reached a position this year on the basis of the 1960 forecasting, where we are 2,700 megawatts short.

    Electricity and Gas Supplies
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied about the security of electricity supply nationally during the next six months; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Power what preparations the Central Electricity Generating Board are making to deal with the cold spell forecast by the long-distance weather forecast service for the first half of December.
    Mr. Channonasked the Minister of Power what steps he is taking to maintain gas and electricity services at all times this winter and to avoid power cuts during cold spells.
    Mr. Frederic Harrisasked the Minister of Power what safeguarding
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    action he proposes to take to avoid inconvenience to the public arising from electricity power breakdowns this winter.
    Miss Quennellasked the Minister of Power whether he will issue a general direction, in the public interest, to the electricity boards and the gas boards to complete their winter arrangements by 1st November in future years.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Power what steps he is taking to avert further public inconvenience and hardship of the kind suffered during the recent cold weather; why the winter preparations of the electricity and gas boards were not complete by mid-November; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir R. Russellasked the Minister of Power if he will give general directions to the gas and electricity boards to complete the annual overhaul of their plants earlier than mid-November.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: The Government have announced that a winter emergency committee covering the fuel, power and transport industries is being set up to deal with any emergency that arises and, so far as possible, to take action in advance of any strain that may develop. The industries are doing everything possible to bring their plant to a high state of readiness and to bring new plant into service.
    As far as future winters are concerned, the industries have been asked to plan their withdrawal of plant for annual overhaul so that their full capacity is available by the end of October each year.
    Mr. Murray: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he will ensure that enough publicity is given to these facts, and will he point out that this has been due to a general lack of planning by the previous Administration?
    Mr. Lee: I have pointed out the shortage that we have to meet this year. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Board is doing a first-class job of work in keeping in commission plant that otherwise would have gone out of commission—and, maybe, at times overstraining other plant in order to ensure that it cuts down the gaps to a minimum. That approach will continue.
    Mr. Channon: As these vital industries, gas and electricity, are at present unable in moments of crisis to meet the demands, can the Minister give the House the absolute assurance that there will be no cut in the vital investment programme that these industries are about to undertake?
    Mr. Lee: We have no intention of cutting any investment programme.
    Mr. Driberg: Would my right hon. Friend be good enough to answer the second part of Question No. 34, which, I think, was not answered in his original reply? Also, does he recall that, many months ago, a number of shop stewards at Beckton Works issued a detailed warning of the likelihood of a gas shortage this winter because of the loss of skilled manpower at those works and the abolition of reliable coal-burning plant?
    Mr. Lee: I have mentioned that there is now a shortage of plant. This does have its effect on the stage at which the boards can begin to make their plant ready for the winter. In other words, they have to keep longer in commission during the summer period plant that they would otherwise be renovating against the winter period—[Interruption.] If hon. Members opposite want me to begin talking about private enterprise, I will do so. It is because private enterprise let the boards down that they now have to overwork the plant they have, and that does result in the fact that their winter programme is not ready as early as it otherwise would be.
    Miss Quennell: Does the Minister realise that his Answer to the first group of Questions is rather unsatisfactory? Can he indicate whether the emergency committee to which he refers will be a permannt body in order that plans can be conf dently completed by 1st November in future years?
    Mr. Lee: It is intended that the committee shall function during the course of this winter. I have intimated the real cause of the problem. As far as that goes, the Generating Board, the Gas Council and the boards will keep in the closest possible communication with their suppliers to ensure that they get the best delivery possible.
    Mr. Richard: In order to keep this matter in perspective, can my right hon.
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    Friend tell us how much it would cost in terms of national resources to obviate all possible power difficulties in a period of prolonged bad weather? How much, in money, would have to be spent in order to give the sort of assurance asked for by hon. Members opposite?
    Mr. Lee: I mentioned, I think, that the Board's plan was to have a margin this year of 14 per cent., rising by 1969–1970 to 17 per cent. This should give the kind of margin to which my hon. Friend refers, but because of the things I have pointed out—lack of supplies, and so on —that margin is now down to 7·4 per cent. Obviously, on that basis, if the weather conditions at any one point become acute, that 7·4 per cent. will not meet the position.
    Mr. Peyton: In order to get this matter quite straight, does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the plans on which he is relying now were made by the previous Administration? [HON. MEMBERS: "And the shortages"] In reply to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's statement that there will be no cuts in electricity or gas investment, but has he at any time contemplated the wisdom of an increase and is he now advising that?
    Mr. Lee: That is a very wide question of which I should need notice. The hon. Member has been very fair in these matters. In our debates some time ago he said that it was easy to ask that supplies should be sufficient for an exceptional winter, but to do that we must accept that we would be faced with the cost. Because of that it is not possible this year to make these 100 per cent. secure.
    Miss Quennell: Owing to the very confused nature of the reply to my Question, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter again at the earliest possible moment.

    Power Stations (Cooling Towers)
    Mr. Kelleyasked the Minister of Power (1) if he is satisfied that a 5-inch wall of concrete, with the present system of reinforcement, is adequate to meet the stresses of air movement, having regard to the height to which cooling

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    towers are now being erected at conventional power stations; and if he will make a statement;
    (2) if he will conduct investigations into the temperature in which concrete was laid in the erection of three cooling towers which blew down in the recent gale in Yorkshire; and if anti-freezing processes were used to ensure fusion of concrete aggregates in low temperatures.
    Mr. John Morris: My right hon. Friend is not responsible for the design and methods of construction used by the Central Electricity Generating Board and its contractors in constructing power stations. However, the points raised by my hon. Friend will doubtless be engaging the attention of the Committee of Inquiry which has been set up by the Board to inquire into the collapse of cooling towers at Ferrybridge Power Station.
    Mr. Kelley: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that reply, but I should like to draw his attention to the fact that a great number of conversations are taking place—
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must put this in the form of a question.
    Mr. Kelley: Is my hon. Friend aware that a great number of conversations are taking place in my constituency where many people are employed on this power station, that these towers were erected by private enterprise, avoiding certain safeguards which could have been taken, and as a consequence this calamity occurred? It did not lead to any fatalities, but these things can happen and we are asking the Minister to ensure that proper precautions should be taken against the placing of—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The Minister has had enough to answer.
    Mr. Morris: I agree with my hon. Friend that there is great concern about this issue. The terms of reference of the Committee of Inquiry which has been set up by the Board are "to examine the collapse of the cooling towers at Ferry-bridge and to make recommendations" This is a very important matter. In addition to the Committee of Inquiry, two joint working parties are investigating the matter. It is a matter of great concern to the nation and to the Board.

    Fuel Policy (White Paper)
    Mr. Hamlingasked the Minister of Power what official consultations he has had with the interests concerned on the implementation of the White Paper on a national fuel policy.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I keep in close touch with the interests concerned in the implementation of fuel policy, particularly the fuel industries.
    Mr. Hamling: In view of the fact that coal is a national indigenous product, will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he is satisfied that as much research is being put into the use of coal as into the use of oil?
    Mr. Lee: I can assure my hon. Friend that a very great deal of research is being put into the use of coal. I now have the assistance of a joint research committee of the electricity, gas and coal industries. Despite the fact that at the moment the economics of carbonisation are not as good as they are in oil, that does not mean that we are not doing all this research in the hope of getting a break-through.

    Gas and Electricity (Capital Expenditure)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Power what capital sum was spent in the last year by the Gas Boards and the Central Electricity Generating Board; and what proportion this represented of total capital expenditure in the public sector.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I would refer the hon. Member to the published Reports and Accounts for 1964–65 of the Gas Council and the Central Electricity Generating Board. Total capital expenditure by the gas and electricity industries was nearly one quarter of capital expenditure by the public sector.
    Mr. Digby: Does not that represent a very big precentage? Is the Minister sure that it is now being spent to the best advantage from the point of view of the nation?
    Mr. Lee: I think it is being spent to the best interests of the nation provided we can get the gear we pay for.

    Gas and Electricity (Power Cuts)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Power if he will give general directions, in the public interest, to the Gas Council and the Central Electricity Generating Board to take disciplinary action against those responsible for the recent power cuts.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: No, Sir. The recent difficulties were not due to the faults of individuals. Gas and electricity staffs made very great efforts to maintain supplies.
    Mr. Digby: Does the Minister think that the public will ever be well served so long as no one is willing to take the blame in the public service?
    Mr. Lee: If that is the case, the hon. Member should address his Front Bench on the subject.
    Mr. Palmer: Will my right hon. Friend agree that these are devoted engineers, devoted public servants—[Interruption]—who are doing their public duty in the public interest to avoid the kind of complete shutdown in the public supply system which the country had three years ago?
    Mr. Lee: I join my hon. Friend entirely in this. It is so easy when there is a partial breakdown in supply for what I might call energy illiterates to blame those who are working hard. The energy and efforts of those connected with these Boards are absolutely remarkable.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It is against the courtesies of the House for an hon. Member to step between whoever is speaking and the Chair if that can be avoided.
    Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I beg to apologise to you, Mr. Speaker.

    Electricity Supplies (Import from Western Germany)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Power whether he will issue a general direction, in the public interest, to the Central Electricity Generating Board to import electrical power from West Germany to overcome shortages in this country, having regard to the earlier hour of factory closing in Germany compared with this country in winter.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Arrangements for the exchange of power with Western Germany would be very costly and present severe technical difficulties. They could not be made in time to help overcome the present shortage of plant in this country.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: As German factories close at 4 p.m. our time, would it not be easy to lay a cable across the North Sea and to pump in electricity from the Continent as we do from France and so have a supply of electricity at the moment when our peak load is on?
    Mr. Lee: I have looked closely at this, but we could not possibly arrange for it to be done in advance of catching up on the supply we have been discussing this afternoon. We are closely connected with France, and have been obtaining power from there as late as last night, to my knowledge. I can assure the hon. Member that although I have looked at the situation in the light of the present position, this would not help.

    Coal (Export to Eastern Europe)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the National Coal Board to take energetic steps to increase the volume of coal exports to countries of Eastern Europe.
    Mr. John Morris: No, Sir. The export of coal is a commercial matter for the National Coal Board. I understand that the Board is making energetic efforts to increase sales wherever satisfactory opportunities can be found.

    Fuel and Power Industries (Co-ordination)
    Mr. Parkasked the Minister of Power if he will issue general directions to the nationalised fuel and power industries so as to bring about greater coordination between them.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I promote coordination between the nationalised fuel and power industries through discussion in my Co-ordinating Committee and in other ways. No occasion has arisen for the issue of a direction.
    Mr. Park: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that much of the existing

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    competition between these nationalised industries is expensive, wasteful and unnecessary? Therefore, would he look at this problem again and consider the possibility of strengthening the co-ordinating functions of the Energy Advisory Council or alternatively setting up a new national power board under his own chairmanship?
    Mr. Lee: As I said in the White Paper, the scope for further co-operation will be kept under review. We are indeed doing a great deal now. I have set up machinery by which there are regular meetings under my chairmanship between the chairmen of these various boards and, in the wider context, there is the Energy Advisory Council itself. However, I do not look upon this as the end of the story. Rather, it is the beginning of it.
    Mr. Peyton: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, if he were to follow the advice given by his hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Park), it would be tantamount to telling the customer to take what he is given and like it? Will he bear in mind that by far the best guarantee of satisfaction to the customer, indeed the only one, is competition between these industries?
    Mr. Lee: I think that where there are nationalised industries there is more to it than competition. The very basis upon which the Statutes were drawn presupposes some competition between them. Because of the overriding responsibility, to the nation, it is right and proper that the Government should supervise them.

    Gas (Maximum Retail Prices)
    Mr. Atkinsonasked the Minister of Power if he will take steps to give the Gas Boards the right to check the setting of sub-meters, and to empower the Boards to take the necessary legal action against landlords who overcharge sub-tenants for the use of gas, and thus remove the onus of such action from sub-consumers.
    Mr. John Morris: Maximum resale prices for gas have been fixed for some years, but there has been little evidence of overcharging. Before considering the introduction of further legislation, my right hon. Friend would need to be convinced that the present arrangements were not working satisfactorily.
    Mr. Atkinson: Is my hon. Friend aware that on numerous occasions in recent months the chairmen of consultative councils have in fact provided the Minister with adequate evidence that this over-charging goes on and that there are many thousands of people throughout the country who are being exploited by rotten landlords who find that this is a cheap method of adding some extras to their rent? Does not my hon. Friend consider that this is adequate evidence to justify taking some action now, as has been done in the case of electricity?
    Mr. Morris: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I understand that he is dealing with gas. If he has any particulars, my right hon. Friend and myself will be most grateful to receive them. If consumers do not send them to us, they may send them to the consultative councils. I assure my hon. Friend that if action is needed it will be taken.

  COAL

    National Coal Board (Capital Investment Programme)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister of Power to what extent the capital investment programme of the National Coal Board is geared to the 1970 target as specified in the National Plan.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: I would refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 13 of the White Paper on the Finances of the Coal Industry.
    Mrs. Short: In view of the fact that last year £90 million was invested in the coal industry, does not my right hon. Friend think that in the national interest maximum productivity should be obtained even if that means exceeding the £90 million?
    Mr. Lee: I certainly think the maximum should be obtained. No target is fixed in the White Paper. This is merely an assessment and, if the coal industry can beat it, the best of British luck to it.

    Central Heating Installations (Solid Fuel)
    Mr. Hamlingasked the Minister of Power if he will issue a general direction, in the public interest, to the National

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    Coal Board to offer concessions to private consumers wishing to install central heating appliances using solid fuels.
    Mr. John Morris: No, Sir. The Board already has a scheme to provide deferred payment facilities for the purchase of solid fuel appliances.
    Mr. Hamling: Will my hon. Friend ask the National Coal Board to set up central manufacturing facilities for the production of solid fuel central heating appliances for district heating on municipil housing estates?
    Mr. Morris: I am sure that if that suggestion is within the powers of the Board, the Board will bear it in mind. Since 1960, under the present scheme loans of over £25 million have been made for the kind of heating referred to in my Answer.

  ATLANTIC NUCLEAR FORCE
  Mr. Blakerasked the Prime Minister whether the public statement made by the Foreign Secretary in New York on 7th October at a Press conference about the Atlantic Nuclear Force represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Blaker: In that case is it not regrettable that in the House yesterday the Foreign Secretary appeared to reaffirm his support for the A.N.F.? Is is not clear that there are better ways than this for arranging for a German share in nuclear matters? Will not the Government now come out clearly and drop the proposal?
  The Prime Minister: We have not heard from the Opposition what better way; they have of arranging this matter. The hon. Gentleman said that there are better ways. We consider the A.N.F. to be the best way of dealing with this problem and so far half the party opposite has been supporting the M.L.F. and half has been against it. I am not sure what better way the hon. Gentleman has in mind.
  Mr. Paget: Is not the best way of obtaining parity with the Germans for neither of us to have it? Have the Americans in fact offered to bring about this arrangement by purchasing the
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  Polaris submarines from us, and would not this be an admirable export?
  The Prime Minister: There has not been this proposition from the American Government, although I am aware of the Press reports to the effect that this may be coming up for discussion. The House will recognise that there has been no opportunity yet within the alliance to discuss the problems of A.N.F. and M.L.F. because of the long delay owing to the German elections,

  NUCLEAR WEAPONS
  Mr. G. Campbellasked the Prime Minister (1) why Her Majesty's Government did not table the draft of a treaty on non-dissemination of nuclear weapons at Geneva during the Recess as he foreshadowed in a statement in the House of Commons on 27th July;
  (2) why Her Majesty's Government did not join the United States Government in sponsoring the draft treaty on non-dissemination of nuclear weapons tabled at Geneva by the United States of America on 17th August.
  The Prime Minister: We did not table the United Kingdom draft non-dissemination treaty at Geneva because it went further than the views of some of our allies on the question of the control of nuclear weapons. Much of the United States draft treaty was based on the text prepared by the United Kingdom, and while giving it our general support, we made it clear that we would like to see it amended in certain respects. For this reason, we could not join in sponsoring it.
  Mr. Campbell: Why was the disagreement with the Americans discovered only at the last moment when the Geneva Conference was reassembling, and what were the Government and the Minister for Disarmament doing in the months beforehand? Can the Prime Minister say whether the new initiative in disarmament described in the Labour Party's manifesto as coming first and foremost has yet taken place?
  The Prime Minister: What we were doing all these months was to try to reach agreement with the Americans. Again there were difficulties because of

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  the German elections. The position is that we do not support the idea of a separate independent European nuclear deterrent. This was the point at issue both between ourselves and the United States and between ourselves and the Germans.
  Mr. Mendelson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the kind of proposals put forward by the Minister for Disarmament have received widespread support and are regarded as by far the most practicable proposals on this subject which have recently been put forward by any one of the major Powers? Will my right hon. Friend give further support to this policy so that we see that we get a wider East-West agreement before we create any barriers to that agreement by internal arrangements?
  The Prime Minister: I believe that as time goes on we shall find more and more support for the propositions put forward by my noble Friend. I hope that as a result of discussions within the alliance we may get widespread support for it within the alliance itself.

  SCOTLAND (ECONOMIC PLANNING)
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Prime Minister what are the respective responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs and the Secretary of State for Scotland for economic planning in Scotland.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave to a Question by the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell) on 1st February.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Is the Prime Minister aware that we have been told that local authority borrowing in Scotland has been slashed by one-third? Yet the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs appears to believe that Scotland has been unaffected by the consequences of the Government's mishandling of our affairs? Would he take steps to ensure that the First Secretary of State knows what is being done in the Government's name in Scotland?
  The Prime Minister: I think my right hon. Friend certainly knows who was
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  responsible for the mishandling of the nation's affairs. The hon. Gentleman is free at any time to put questions to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland on the precise effects of the local government position there.
  Mr. Heath: Is not the Prime Minister aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave specific undertakings that development districts, of which the central belt of Scotland is one, would be exempted from the reductions in capital expenditure, and we as a Government gave a similar undertaking when the Scottish White Paper was published and implemented? Yet now local authority borrowing has been slashed by one-third. How can the Prime Minister reconcile these two things?
  The Prime Minister: I think that when the right hon. Gentleman comes to study what has actually happened there—we are prepared to make a very much fuller statement in view of what he has said—he will find that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement has been carried out.

  PRE-SCHOOL CHILDREN
  Dr. Kerrasked the Prime Minister what representations he has received on the establishment of a Royal Commission on the needs of the pre-school child; and what decision he has reached.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
  Dr. Kerr: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a growing body of opinion among people working in education, health and social affairs that the under-fives are the most dispossessed and deprived section of the community? Would he indicate to the House that he is consulting with his colleagues with responsibility in these departments with a view to having a sympathetic look at the proposal?
  The Prime Minister: I agree that there is certainly a problem here, and the Central Advisory Council for Education, the one dealing with England, is at present considering all aspects of primary education, including the educational needs of children under five.

  MINISTERIAL SALARIES
  Mr. Higginsasked the Prime Minister what percentage increase the estimated current cost per year of Ministerial salaries represents over the year 1963; and whether he will now reduce the size of the Administration.
  The Prime Minister: Eighty-eight per cent., Sir; largely due to the decisions reached following the recommendations 4at the Lawrence Committee appointed by my predecessor.
  The Answer to the last part of the Question is "No. Sir".
  Mr. Higgins: Would not the Prime Minister agree that one of the main reasons why the cost of living has gone u so fast in the last year is the fact that there has been very little coordination between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Secretary of Slate? Should we not have the two Departments amalgamated so that coordination between them can be achieved?
  The Prime Minister: I thought that the Question related to Ministerial salaries. The point that I was trying to make was that the increase in Ministerial salaries about which the hon. Gentleman asks would have been not 88 per cent. but well over 100 per cent., even on the size of the previous Administration, if we had carried out in full the Report of the Committee which was appointed by the previous Government.

  DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND MINISTRY OF OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Mr. Alisonasked the Prime Minister, in view of the need to reconcile the objectives of the National Plan and the need to expand the volume of overseas aid, if he will take steps to coordinate the activities of the Department of Economic Affairs and the Ministry of Overseas Development.
  The Prime Minister: The work of these two Departments is already co-ordinated.
  Mr. Alison: Is the Prime Minister aware that the co-ordination so far achieved has been the specifying and quantifying of substantial advances for
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  G.N.P. in this country and for personal consumption but no specification or quantification for the growth of overseas aid? Will he give a firm undertaking that the volume of aid will increase at least as much as the 21 per cent. specified for personal consumption?
  The Prime Minister: In the programme there is provision for overseas aid, but, as to looking five years ahead, we have to watch the position of overseas aid because of growth in commitments some of which have to be met. That is why we have yet reached no final decision about what the position will he by 1970. We are trying to ensure that what we can afford for overseas aid is effectively spent in relation to development programmes in other countries.

  KENYA (EUROPEAN FARMERS)
  Mr. Chatawayasked the Prime Minister what official communications he has had with the President of Kenya about the future of the European mixed farmers in Kenya.
  The Prime Minister: Exchanges between myself and other Heads of Government are confidential.
  Mr. Chataway: Is the Prime Minister aware that the recently agreed loan to the Government of Kenya means a reduction in land transfer from Europeans to Africans from an annual rate of about 500,000 acres to 100,000 acres? Is he aware that there is some real anxiety about the security of European farmers and about their ability to get reasonable prices for their land as a result of the decision, and will he watch the situation carefully?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir; I am aware of the anxiety referred to. It is a fact that I have had discussions with the President of Kenya. My right hon. Friend made a statement about this in the House last week, and has made a further statement which has been placed in the Library, and no doubt the hon. Gentleman will be studying it.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: Is the Prime Minister aware that 100,000 acres a year will in no way satisfy the land hunger existing among the African population? As Kenya is an example to other areas

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  of Africa, would he not consider again intervening personally in order to raise the acreage to at least 200,000, which I understand is the figure that the Kenya Government would like to see?
  The Prime Minister: We are in touch with the Government of Kenya, but the general responsibility for the allocation of land must lie with them. The House will have noticed the considerable satisfaction—despite the anxieties—expressed by Europeans in Kenya, of which they have recently sent a statement to another part of Africa.

  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  Mr. Longdenasked the Prime Minister if, at the earliest opportunity and in consultation with Great Britain's partners in the European Free Trade Association, he will seek to further the concept of European unity, and to prevent further damage to that concept and to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, by means of a new British initiative towards the European Economic Community.
  The Prime Minister: The European Free Trade Association Ministerial Council at its meeting last month reaffirmed the initiative Her Majesty's Government took at the Vienna meeting, and is pressing the community for discussions aimed at ending the economic division of Western Europe.
  Mr. Longden: While welcoming that reply, may I ask the Prime Minister whether it is not time that a further initiative was taken by Her Majesty's Government, because the 19th-century policies of the French President are placing the European Economic Community, and, indeed, possibly N.A.T.O., in jeopardy? Is it not time for the British Government to drop their policy of passivity and take the initiative?
  The Prime Minister: I am not sure that immediately after the return of the Leader of the Opposition from Paris—we all welcome him back—we should have these phrases of criticism of the French President in that form. We have on both sides of the House taken the view that it is not for us to intervene in the dis-
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  agreement within the Community, taking one side or the other. All of us have expressed, as the right hon. Gentleman did yesterday, our deep concern and also our very sincere hope that the difficulties will be overcome as soon as possible.
  Mr. Gower: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is prepared to contemplate an initiative on his part which is less hamstrung with a lot of conditions than the one which he described previously?
  The Prime Minister: We took an initiative at Vienna, and we are now awaiting the response from the Community. We fully understand that, because of difficulties in the Community, it is difficult for it at this stage to respond to our initiative.

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA (GOVERNOR AND LADY GIBBS)
  Mr. Dan Jonesasked the Prime Minister if he will send to Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia, a token force of the Brigade of Guards to protect the lives of the Governor and Lady Gibbs for so long as they remain in that country as the Queen's personal representatives under present circumstances.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Jones: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer will cause a good deal of serious misgiving to many people in this country? Is he further aware that the situation with regard to the Governor in Rhodesia is such that if anything happened to him a very serious misgiving would arise in this country, and even more so in Africa, that it might have been due to the Smith regime's being remiss? Will not my right hon. Friend think this out again?
  The Prime Minister: I certainly agree with what my hon. Friend said about concern for the Governor—the whole House will agree, too—but when there were threatening letters Mr. Smith himself, I think, restored the guard to ensure that nothing happened to the Governor. All I am concerned to say is that what my hon. Friend has in mind is not the right way to deal with the matter.

  VIETNAM
  Mr. Philip Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister, in pursuance of his initiative to seek peace in Vietnam, what consultations he has had with President Johnson about the offers made by the Government of North Vietnam to start discussions about the ending of the war in Vietnam.
  The Prime Minister: We are in constant touch with the United States Administration at all levels but we have not ye: had from the North Vietnamese authorities any clear sign of willingness to negotiate.
  Several Hon. Members—[Laughter.]
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Philip Noel-Baker.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In view of the startling admissions made last week by the State Department, and of the appalling savagery of the methods used by both sides in the war in Vietnam, will my right hon. Friend consider whether he and his colleagues in the Commonwealth Peace Mission could not now attempt to secure in the General Assembly of the United Nations a world consensus about the conditions on which discussions could begin for a cease-fire and a negotiated settlement of the war?
  The Prime Minister: I certainly agree that the Vietnamese fighting is not a laughing matter, as may be thought on the benches opposite. With regard to what my right hon. Friend referred to—an attempt to get a settlement—this was, in fact, in September, 1964, and I heard about it afterwards. It is the aim of the Government of this country to get people round a table, and I think that we began to get some success, from April onwards at any rate, in getting American willingness to go there. Finally, with regard to his suggestion, I am in touch with other members of the Commonwealth Peace Mission. The whole matter has been raised again very recently as a result of my visit to Africa, and, also, I hope that I shall be in touch with the President of the United States before too long. But I do not believe that the right place at which to raise this at the moment is either the Security Council or the General Assembly, for reasons which my right hon. Friend will recognise.
  Lord Balniel: As we now know, in May the French Government passed on the offer from Hanoi to negotiate provided only that the Americans withdrew their troops. Can the Prime Minister say what it was which led him to make his proposals in June, when the Commonwealth Peace Mission stood no chance of success at all?
  The Prime Minister: There is a great deal of doubt about the message from the French Government, and I do not accept the summary of it as stated by the noble Lord. In June we took our initiative representing the whole Commonwealth, every point of view on the Vietnam issue, but it was clear in all that followed that we got no response at all from Hanoi to a proposition, certainly not on the lines mentioned by the noble Lord.
  Mr. Lubbock: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what conditions, if any, were attached to this offer of negotiations by Hanoi? In view of his recent discovery that some approach was made, does the Prime Minister consider that any fresh negotiation by Her Majesty's Government is worth while at the present time?
  The Prime Minister: This is not a recent discovery. I heard a long time ago about the initiative taken by Hanoi in September, 1964, although there was no reason to suppose that it looked, at that time, like solving the problem. I have not been given any information by any Government with whom we are in touch suggesting that there was any reasonable offer by Hanoi. Our task must be to probe continuously to see if there is any chance of a willingness, even a conditional willingness, to come to the conference table.
  Mr. Orme: Following the revelations we have had in relation to the United States Government, will my right hon. Friend impress upon that Government that this country will not accept any extension of the war into North Vietnam or the bombing of Haiphong or any of these other places?
  The Prime Minister: I am not accepting any responsibility for what happened before October, 1964. The revelations my hon. Friend referred to were made in September, 1964. Our task earlier this year was to try to bring about negotiations

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  through the Commonwealth Peace Mission. The speech by President Johnson in Baltimore in May made clear the United States Government's willingness to negotiate and it has since been elaborated on. If we could get a similar willingness from Hanoi there might me more hope of getting negotiations.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister—statement.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: May I ask the Prime Minister—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) heard me. Question Time is over. I called the Prime Minister to make a statement.

RHODESIA
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and arising out of the exchanges yesterday, I should like to make a statement on the Rhodesian situation following the resolution passed by the Security Council on 20th November.
The House will recall the circumstances in which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary went to New York. He had to negotiate and debate against a background of almost overwhelming demand for the use of collective military force, and it was the desire of the whole House, too, that he should assert the British responsibility for Rhodesia, while seeking the fullest support for effective measures to bring Rhodesia back to constitutional rule. I believe my right hon. Friend had a great success in what he set out to do, not least because he was able to claim the full support of Parliament and the country.
It became clear that the original British resolution would not have secured a majority and we insisted that the opposing resolution, supported by 36 African States, was unacceptable. In the event, a compromise resolution which, with the explanation made by my noble Friend Lord Caradon, last Saturday, was acceptable to us, was passed by ten votes to none, France abstaining.
The text of the resolution, Lord Caradon's statement, the earlier resolutions and the speeches of my right hon. Friend have been—are being—placed in the Library.
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There are three things to which I would draw attention—the question of Chapter 7 wording, the reference in the resolution to the 1961 Constitution and the question of trade relations and an oil embargo.
On the wording of the resolution, Lord Caradon made it clear that, with regard to the operative paragraph one, we do not regard it as falling under Chapter 7 of the Charter of the United Nations.
Now I turn to paragraph 7 of the resolution, which is one that calls upon the United Kingdom Government, as the working of the 1961 Constitution has broken down, to take immediate measures in order to allow the people of Rhodesia to determine their own future, consistent with the objectives of General Assembly Resolution 1514 (xv).
I cannot see any difficulty here. Manifestly the 1961 Constitution has broken down. In so far as Mr. Smith and his colleagues purport to be a Government, they have replaced it by an entirely new so-called Constitution. But the House must accept that the Constitution had in fact already broken down as a result of the ordinances and decrees signed on 10th November, which amounted to the destruction of all safeguards for the rule of law, for human rights in the 1961 Constitution and earlier legislation.
This certainly does not mean we have abrogated it. It remains the law of Rhodesia, together with the new laws made last week under the powers created by the Southern Rhodesia Act, 1965. While we have power to revoke or amend sections of that Constitution, we have said we have no present intention of revoking it as a whole, and I cannot at this stage foresee circumstances in which we would do so. I will come to its rôle in the re-settlement period in a moment.
With reference to paragraph 8 of the Security Council resolution, on 12th November, I said:
"We shall certainly have to review the situation in the light of the discussions in the United Nations and elsewhere, because in our view it is important that, whatever measures are taken, they will fall a long way short of some of the measures which may be urged in the United Nations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November, 1965; Vol. 720, c. 635.]
Our position was explained by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday. We are committed to doing what is in our power to implementing this

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resolution. But although we insist this remains a British responsibility we shall not follow a unilateral policy. For this reason, as my right hon. Friend said, we shall take counsel with other Governments on the best methods to pursue.
For one thing, unilateral action on oar part under the resolution could not be effective, if other nations were to fill any gap we created. So far as oil is concerned, there are many technical and economic factors to be examined if an oil sanction is to be made effective. I will, of course, make a further statement to the House when I am in a position to do so. The same considerations apply in the case of other goods entering into Rhodesian trade.
The test to be applied, as I explained to the House on 12th November, is the effectiveness of the measures to be applied as a means of contributing to the return of Rhodesia to constitutional methods of Government. For the reasons I then explained, this issue cannot be burked. The measures must not be vindictive, but they must be effective if we are to continue to discharge our continuing responsibility for Rhodesia, and not have that responsibility taken out of our hands, by others, and possibly by methods which would involve lasting damage for Rhodesia, and indeed far beyond Rhodesia.
In judging the effectiveness and the rightness of any measures we propose to the House, I hope hon. Members and right hon. Members will recognise that action which is speedily effective will do less lasting damage to Rhodesia's economy, and to the possibility of a reasonable settlement, than pressures which are long drawn out and inflict a continuing agony on Rhodesia. I hope the House will recognise, too, that while we must continue to assert our special and continuing responsibility, this is a matter of world concern. What is at stake here is the future of our multi-racial Commonwealth, what is at stake—has been at stake—is the possibility of our virtual isolation at the United Nations. What is at stake, too, is whether the Afro-Asian bloc will continue in a substantially neutralist posture, or will be attracted by the pressures from other nations—not least China—who are in a position to turn the Rhodesian situation to their advantage.
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Finally, I repeat our aims for Rhodesia. They are as speedily as possible to turn Rhodesia back into constitutional channels, and to do this constructively, without recrimination. When the Governor is able to report that the people of Rhodesia are willing and able to work on constitutional paths, we are prepared to work together with their leaders to make a new start. For this purpose, the 1961 Constitution remains in being, though the House will realise the need for those amendments which are required to prevent its perversion and misuse, such as we have seen in the last fortnight, and those amendments, too, which are needed to give effect to the five principles to which all parties in this House have subscribed.
Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that we are labouring under two disadvantages, to which I would draw his attention? First, we had his statement only at the last minute and, although we were able to make allowances for that while negotiations were going on, I remind him that the United Nations resolution was passed three days ago. The fact that we received a statement so late makes it difficult to have proper consultation.
Again, I think the right hon. Gentleman said that Lord Caradon's speeches and reservations are in the Library, but they are not and, therefore, we have been unable to ascertain what reservations Lord Caradon made. As the Prime Minister said, this is not a Chapter 7 resolution. By that, does he mean that it is not mandatory on countries? If so, why did the Foreign Secretary say yesterday that the Government are implementing the resolution?
Secondly, it is not only a question of the resolution saying that the Constitution has broken down, but also committing the British Government to the peoples of Rhodesia themselves settling a future constitution as the next stage. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the British Government will not go back on the 1961 Constitution or any of the offers made by the right hon. Gentleman during the next negotiations?
Thirdly, on the question of a trade embargo, will the Prime Minister state clearly whether, one way or the other,

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the British Government intend now to impose a complete trade embargo, including oil, for which the resolution calls, or only to impose it if all other members of the United Nations do the same thing?
The Prime Minister: First, on the question of the time of the statement reaching the right hon. Gentleman, I will make inquiries, because it left my hands in time to reach him for 3.15 p.m., which is a great deal earlier than we ever got statements. I can remember very many absolutely crucial statements arriving at 3.25 p.m. or 3.30 p.m. I certainly intended that the right hon. Gentleman should have plenty of time with this statement, according to the usual practice.
I certainly regret it if the papers to which I referred are not already in the Library. I have given instructions for them to be there and I will see about it. I would be prepared to consider whether we should not now publish the whole lot as a White Paper so that all hon. Members can get them, because they may want more than one copy.
With regard to the question of Chapter 7, our interpretation is that the wording, because it was a compromise, could be interpreted as something between Chapter 6 and Chapter 7. I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman says, that we do not regard it as a Chapter 7. We do not regard it as mandatory, but in all the circumstances, and I have explained the background, we voted for it with the reservations that I have mentioned. It is for that reason that my right hon. Friend made his statement yesterday.
Secondly, with regard to paragraph 7, about the 1961 Constitution and the terms for allowing the peoples of Rhodesia to decide their own future, again Lord Caradon specifically reserved one word there. That was the word "immediate", because all along we have made it plain, we did throughout the negotiations, and all parties have done so in this House, that while guaranteed and unimpeded progress to majority rule is the policy of all of us, we do not believe that this could be immediate. For that reason Lord Caradon made that exception. Certainly all of us are committed, and were in the negotiations, to an early opportunity for the Rhodesian people to pronounce on
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their own future. That was the reason for the suggested referendum, that was the reason for the Royal Commission. I did not think that there need be any difficulty about that.
With regard to trade, I have said that we are going to study all aspects of trade and oil and make another statement to the House. I certainly agree with one point made by the right hon. Gentleman—we are not going in for a trade embargo or an oil embargo on our own. This would make an utter nonsense of the situation, which has to be properly studied. As everyone realises, the oil embargo is bristling with difficulties if it is going to be effective. Even if there were fairly general support for it, there is the position of Zambia to be considered, along with other countries. These matters will have to be very carefully studied, and while we must insist that whatever sanctions are applied must be effective, we do not want those which are damaging and ineffective, any more than we want to create damage or resort to ineffectiveness. It is very important that in this we proceed only in agreement with others principally concerned.
Mr. Grimond: Can the Prime Minister say whether his statement means that although he may ultimately have to find out from other nations whether they are to join in the embargo, Her Majesty's Government are in favour of such an embargo on oil, and possibly on other trade, too, and that they are now discussing with other nations whether they will join in such an embargo?
The Prime Minister: I assume that the other countries will feel that it is their duty to make effective, as far as it lies within their power, the wishes expressed in the United Nations resolution. I repeat that if we fail to do this we are going to find a much uglier situation, with military force being used, which none of us could control. To this extent, therefore, we are going to sit down with them to see whether an effective embargo can be worked out that will not do lasting damage but which will be effective in getting a settlement in Rhodesia. We are not going to do it on our own.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Can we get this clear from the Prime Minister? I think the House understood him to say only a few weeks ago that the Government were not in favour of coercive

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economic action which would bring chaos to the economy of Rhodesia and, therefore, drive the Rhodesians, willy-nilly, into the hands of South Africa. Can he make it absolutely clear that this is still the Government's position?
The Prime Minister: I have said repeatedly, and the House has to face up to this question, that whatever measures we take they must be effective. The quicker they are the less lasting damage there will be. What I have said is that we reject the idea of military intervention. We will examine any other measures. Tobacco is the first, and there are others. We will certainly examine any measures necessary for a quick solution of the problem in Rhodesia. That includes an oil embargo.
Mr. Heller: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the resolution passed by the United Nations is widely welcomed in this country? [Interruption.] Secondly, would he not agree with me that, if unilateral action is not taken, when action is agreed the most effective method of stopping oil going to Rhodesia will be by a naval and military blockade?
The Prime Minister: As to the resolution being widely welcomed, all I can is that it was the best that we could get after very hard work by my right hon. Friend, and it might have been a good deal worse. So far as oil is concerned, the Government of Iran have already proceeded to act under the terms of the resolution, and I imagine that a number of other oil-producing countries will do so. I understand that there have been statements by various oil companies in different parts of the world. I am quite sure that if this is an applicable embargo, and I would need a lot of satisfying on the technical and economic consequences of this embargo, if this is applicable and effective—
Mr. Goodhew: Let us have some straight talk.
The Prime Minister: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman wants me to say that we will introduce an oil embargo tomorrow, or whether he wants me to say that we are examining this properly, which any sane and rational Government would do in the light of all the facts.
Mr. J. Amery: Will the Prime Minister recall that, on the 11th November, he said:
"…we do not contemplate … any national action, and, may I say, any international action, for the purpose of coercing even the illegal Government of Rhodesia into a constitutional posture."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11 th November, 1965; Vol. 720, c. 360–1.]
[An HON. MEMBER: "What do you want to do then?"] Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that we gave our support to the Enabling Bill on the strength of this assurance, and the Government's acceptance of the United Nations resolution seems to go clean counter to the assurance which he gave to the House on Armistice Day? He cannot expect in these circumstances much further support from this side of the House?
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman was speaking a long way below the Gangway and will, no doubt, decide for himself how far he can speak for his side of the House. I can at any rate tell him that he will not get three cheers from us. The statement I made, and I have looked it up because it was quoted yesterday, was against the background of military action, military action proposed whether by the United Nations or in any other way. In the debate on the 12th, when we had a very full discussion on this question, I made it clear that while the measures being taken under the Act last week were all that we envisaged at that time, we should need to reconsider the situation, first, in relation to what Mr. Smith's regime did, and, secondly, in relation to the discussions at the United Nations. This we are in process of doing.
Mr. Michael Foot: Does not the Prime Minister think that a more important question than satisfying the Official Opposition, which appears to be attempting to wriggle out of its responsibilities, is how we are to discharge British responsibilities in Rhodesia, in particular the protection of human rights there? Will he further say what response the British Government propose to make to the appeals which have been made in the past week by President Kaunda of Zambia?
The Prime Minister: I do not agree with the opening words of my hon. Friend, because I am sure that a large number

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of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are looking at this problem, as we have to do, in a world setting out against the background of all the dangers which are faced. I do not think that there can be anyone in this House who will readily see, or want to see, the break-up of the Commonwealth or further Chinese penetration of the Afro-Asian bloc.
With regard to the question of human rights, I say—and I am sure the House will agree—that in the light of our experience of the twisting and misuse of the 1961 Constitution, it will be necessary in the future to strengthen the 1961 Constitution in respect of human rights. For example, the Constitutional Council of Rhodesia, whom I met, are anxious to see that their powers are increased. They are much too limited in the matter of human rights at the present time.
In regard to the messages from President Kaunda, of which the House will have some idea, and also of the dangers lying behind them, Mr. Malcolm MacDonald is now in Lusaka and is discussing these questions with President Kaunda.
Lady Tweedsmuir: Will the Prime Minister clarify the methods taken to assert British responsibility for Rhodesia? While all Governments have been willing to give information on Rhodesia to the United Nations, can the Prime Minister explain why we did not participate in any vote on resolutions concerning Rhodesia before U.D.I. but that after U.D.I. we did? Can the right hon. Gentleman explain what appears to be an inconsistency, in that on 12th October Sir Roger Jackling, in speaking on a resolution which asked Britain to prevent U.D.I., said:
"My Government has reservations concerning the competence of the United Nations in the question of Rhodesia. For this reason, my delegation will not participate in the vote."
The Prime Minister: I should have thought that the answer was obvious. We have throughout—both Governments—abstained on votes of this kind in the past because we have said that it was an internal matter owing to the fact that under the Convention and under its Constitution Rhodesia is a self-governing country. This position was entirely changed, however, by the illegal declaraation of independence. It is the so-called
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Rhodesian Government who have torn up that Constitution and altered the whole situation.
I warned Mr. Smith—I had to speak in pretty strong terms, as will be seen from the published documents—that whatever we had done in defending Rhodesia in the past could not be the position after an illegal declaration of independence.
As I have said, and I do not think that anybody will deny, once this had arisen, with the threat of military invasion from other parts of Africa, this must be a matter of world concern. We still regard it as our responsibility, but we cannot go on as though the rest of the world and of Africa did not exist.
Mr. Dan Jones: Is the Prime Minister aware of the statements that came from Caxton Hall last night? Is he further aware that these statements came from responsible politicians belonging to a responsible political party? Since those observations attempt to support a treasonable Government, do not those statements constitute treason in themselves?
The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I have seen the statements. They should be treated with the contempt which they deserve. I do not believe that they came from responsible politicians. They came from irresponsible members of a responsible party. The only danger about them is the habit which has been formed in Rhodesia of believing that one or other hon. Members who make a speech of that kind speak for Britain or for their own party. I am sure that they do not.
Mr. Ronald Bell: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that these are matters of domestic jurisdiction, whether or not they are matters of international concern, whether or not one regards Southern Rhodesia as independent or as dependent upon Britain? That being so, as the Government have recognised since the illegal declaration, is it not a fact that Article 2(7) of the Charter makes it perfectly clear that the United Nations has no competence in this matter?
Why, therefore, did the Government take this matter to the United Nations? What is the alleged need for anticipating action by other people in the United Nations? Since Article 2(7) governs Chapter 7 of the Charter as well as

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the other Chapters, what is all this talk about whether it comes under Chapter 7?
The Prime Minister: I explained this in answer to a perfectly reasonable question put by the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir). The hon. Member must not go through this whole problem with his head buried in the sand. We assert that this is our responsibility. For that reason, it was we who took it to the United Nations to prevent other people doing so. The hon. Member must know perfectly well that, whatever we had done in the Security Council, the matter would have been transferred to the Assembly and there would have been no doubt whatever of the overwhelming desire of members of the Assembly, as had been shown only a week before the illegal declaration, for the use of military force. We believe that this would have been a very dangerous course of action.
I am not sure how hon. Members opposite, with all their legalism about subsections of the kind that have just been quoted by the hon. Member, would have stopped the bloodshed that could have occurred if my right hon. Friend had not taken the action he did.
Mr. Heath: Further to the supplementary question of my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), will not the Prime Minister recall that he himself told the House that, as a result of the action in Rhodesia and the Enabling Bill, Rhodesia had become to an even greater extent the responsibility only of the British Government, and therefore the explanation which the Prime Minister has given of the reason why the Government did not abstain—[Interruption.]—is certainly not consistent with what he said before?
Secondly, the Prime Minister stated, also in the debate, that in his view and that of the Government the existing measures which they were taking would be effective. Therefore, anything further to which the right hon. Gentleman agrees is not, in the judgment of the British Government, necessary but is being forced upon them by other Governments.
Thirdly, will the Prime Minister recognise that the last part of his statement about the future position on which those who wish to return to constitu-
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tional normality in Rhodesia can work is still far from clear and that it is becoming urgently necessary to have a detailed statement from the Government on this point?
The Prime Minister: It is true, as I said, that we are responsible for Rhodesia, and I said that there is a very special responsibility now in that the Government of Rhodesia legally resides in this country through the Governor. It ought not, however, to be for me to explain to the right hon. Gentleman the difference between our legal responsibility for Rhodesia and the fact that, as I have said, this is a matter for world concern. It is easy for the right hon. Gentleman to deplore that it is a matter for world concern, but he has to answer the question whether he is prepared to see the Commonwealth break up on this issue. This is one of the questions that the right hon. Gentleman must face, and I hope that he will. [HON. MEMBERS: "You answer it."] I am dealing with the point made by the right hon. Gentleman, in which he tried to suggest that I should be concerned—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Bursts of anger and emotion are all right collectively. I hope that hon. Members who shout individually across from either side realise that they do no good to whatever the cause in which they believe.
The Prime Minister: I was explaining why, although we say that we have a special responsibility for Rhodesia, we cannot ignore world opinion. It would be perfectly easy to do so and to stand upon the constitutional doctrine. The result would be bloodshed in Rhodesia and perhaps throughout the whole of Africa. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] No right hon. Member has the right in this House to discount the importance of this.
With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's question about discussions with the people of Rhodesia to get a new Constitution. I agree with him that this is very important. I agree with him about the need to spell this out further as we go along, and I hope that we shall be able to do so. The position here, however, is that as soon as the people of Rhodesia are prepared to return to constitutional paths, as soon as the Governor feels that

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there is an opportunity of, perhaps, forming a Government among those who will act in a constitutional manner, we would want to deal with those people, without any recrimination or any rancour about the past, on the basis of a resettlement in Rhodesia, starting from the 1961 Constitution with such amendments as, I think, the whole House would agree to be necessary to give effect to the five principles, leading up, I would hope, as quickly as possible to free elections in Rhodesia and then a discussion as to how we can give effect to the question of gradual and unimpeded progress to majority rule.
What is important to say here—and I think that the right hon. Gentleman has this in mind—is that there are too many people still in Rhodesia who think that the only alternative to this illegal action and all the economic consequences that will follow from it would be majority rule tomorrow or the day after. Repeatedly we have all said, on both sides, that this is not a runner at all, and that Rhodesia is not ready for immediate majority rule. I spent a lot of time in Rhodesia talking to various people from all sections of opinion to discuss a basis on which we can move at the earliest possible moment towards it. But we have to get abundant proof of a willingness to work the Constitution and of racial harmony in Rhodesia before we can proceed to the question of majority rule. I think that the right hon. Gentleman was right to stress that we have to spell this out more.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We have had a good run. We must proceed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to continue certain expiring laws, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such expenses as may be occasioned by the continuance of section 3 of the Emergency Laws (Repeal) Act 1959 and Part I of, and Schedule 1 to, the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, till the end of December, 1966, and of Part VII of the Licensing Act, 1964, till the end of March, 1967, being expenses which under any Act are to be paid out of such moneys.
  Resolution agreed to.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir SAMUEL STOREY in the Chair]

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL

    Clause 1.—(CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN EXPIRING ENACTMENTS.)
    Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
    4.2 p.m.
    Mr. W. T. Williams: Before we proceed with Clause 2, I should be grateful to learn from the representatives of the Home Office what action they propose to take to extend the provisions of the Licensing Act so far as they relate to licensing planning committees. Originally licensing planning committees were set up in badly bombed areas of the country to provide that unnecessary licences should not be afforded in areas which by reason of bombing could possibly later change their character. The provision was then made, and at the time of making was a very sensible provision, by which before the licensing magistrates themselves considered the question of granting licences in such areas, the licensing committee should be advised by a licensing planning committee that it had considered the possible need of those areas.
    In the passing years the licensing planning committees in most areas of the country have ceased to have any raison d'etre. The position now is that

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    in some parts of the country, notably Plymouth and London, although these licensing planning committees continue to function, they now hardly function in the way in which it could have been intended that they should function when they were set up. The position, as the Minister and the Home Office know, is that in many of the licensing planning committees the same kind of evidence is received, the same kind of witnesses are heard and the same kind of arguments are deployed as reasons for not granting licences as will be argued in the licensing committees proper. The position, therefore, is that often objectors have two bites at the same cherry, and very often considerable sums of money are spent by those seeking to obtain licences for the sale of liquor, first of all to obtain the consent of the licensing planning committee, only for them to discover that in a later hearing before the licensing magistrates themselves, at the brewster sessions, on the same argument and the same evidence, their application is rejected.
    I raised this question last year, and I was told by the then Home Secretary that they were aware of the anomalies which arose from the continuance of these committees which are now obsolescent, but that in previous years—and this I readily concede—large numbers of the licensing planning areas had been abandoned and the licensing planning committees no longer met. I was told that it was the intention of the then Government to explore whether these licensing planning areas should not now cease to have relevance to the granting of licences and that it was the Government's intention as quickly as possible to end this system of licensing planning inquiries.
    I therefore ask whether the Government have had an opportunity to look again at this matter. Will they give us an assurance that this anomaly is to be ended, if not immediately then as quickly as possible, with a return to normality, and that these licensing planning committees, which serve so little useful purpose, will be abandoned.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Thomas): My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) raised this question last year,
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    as he rightly said. There are 18 of these planning authorities now exercising their powers. The House will know that in July last the Departmental Committee, which had been set up by the right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) to consider and report on these war-damaged areas and licensing planning committees, submitted a report to the Minister which was published as a White Paper on 13th July. Its main recommendation is for the continuance of licensing planning in a modified form. This would involve consultation between the licensing justices and the local planning authorities. Licences would be excluded from their scope. Unlike the present licensing machinery, the new licensing system would not be limited to areas of war damage but could be applied to any area of development.
    Obviously the Government do not want to introduce legislation without first consulting the organisations which are likely to be concerned, and they have asked for time to consider this report. We expect that their views will be received before the end of the year, but, clearly, as my hon. and learned Friend will understand, not in time for any new legislation which might be considered necessary to come into force before the present period of extension expires at the end of March 1966. It is therefore necessary for Part VII of the Act of 1964 to continue in force for another year during which time it is hoped to complete the preparatory work of any new legislation which may be necessary.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Schedule.—(ACTS CONTINUED TILL END OF DECEMBER 1966.)
    Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: There are two Amendments on the Order Paper in my name. The first is in page 2, leave out lines 6 and 7, and is designed to omit the reference to the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919. The second is to leave out lines 15 and 16 and thereby omit the reference to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if we take the two Amendments together.
    The Chairman: I had been warned that a request of this kind might be made to me and I have looked at the debates on similar Amendments to the Bill last year. It seems to me that on that occasion the two debates ran on different lines and each of them involved a number of considerations peculiar to itself. It therefore seems to me that if the Committee seeks to debate the two Amendments together it might run into some confusion. If it were to appear to be the unanimous wish of the Committee to debate the two Amendments together I would not, of course, stand in its way, but if it be the wish of any hon. Member to debate the two Amendments separately, as they always have been debated up to now, I think it would be my duty to call them separately on this occasion also.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I regard it as absolutely necessary for these two Amendments to be taken separately.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I do not want to press the point. It was a question only of the convenience of the Committee. The Government themselves have suggested a committee to consider both aliens and Commonwealth immigrants, but, naturally, though I thought that it might facilitate the business of the present Committee, I will not press the matter further.
    I beg to move, in page 2, to leave out lines 6 and 7.
    I move this first Amendment very shortly because it has now become a very narrow point. It concerns the way in which we deal with aliens. I was beginning to read the other day A. J. Taylor's provocative account of English history between 1914 and 1945. In the opening paragraph of that book he recalls a happier world where any foreigner could live here without a passport and without even reporting to the police. It is worth reflecting that there was a time in this country when our affairs were conducted in that manner. It appears from the Schedule that our legislation on aliens really emerged in wartime legislation and in particular in Orders passed immediately after the First World War. Anyone who studies it will realise that it smacks somewhat of that atmosphere.
    As a result, hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have come to the
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    view that it ought to be reformed. I do not think that there is any difference of view about it. I shall argue later on the other Amendment that we should not postpone necessary action in other fields while this goes on, but I am entirely at one with the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who has taken a leading part in this matter, that there ought to be a reform.
    The Government have conceded this, because in the debate on the Address they said specifically that they recognise the force of these arguments, advanced from both sides of the House of Commons, and that they are prepared to set up an independent committee. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton suggested—and this is really the only point left in this discussion—that the inquiry into this legislation might be better done by a Select Commttee of the House rather than by an independent committee set up by the Home Office. This is the only point left on the aliens side.
    4.15 p.m.
    I do not wish to take too pedantic a view. I shall be guided very much by what the Home Secretary says, but I think that there is a good deal of force in the argument of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton. This is a matter where the rights and interests of the executive and judiciary tend to overlap and coincide. There are difficult issues of how far one can have an appeal to the judiciary from a decision of the Executive. These matters are well recognised and understood in the Home Office. There is the question of how far a Select Committee is a good instrument for varying legislation. It has one achievement to its credit, namely, the Army Act, which I think most people will agree was rather a success when it was referred to a Select Committee. That Committee examined the matter and an Army Act which has received general approval since then was adopted.
    On the other hand, a Select Committee would probably take longer than an indedendent committee. I hope that the Home Secretary will agree that in any event the interests and views of Members of the House of Commons, whatever inquiry he sets up, should be taken seriously into account in these matters. Therefore, on this Amendment, which is technical, I would only say—I do not

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    want to lose the Act; I merely want to give an opportunity for debate—that we ought to have an inquiry and that the views of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton should be listened to on the question whether it would be better to have a Select Committee or otherwise.
    Mr. R. T. Paget: There is another point which seems to me to be very important and that is the question of the terms of reference of the inquiry body, whichever it may be. At present these are confined to what I should have thought relatively unimportant points on the procedure of appeal against the refusal of admission or against expulsion, but the grounds on which people are expelled seem to be much more important, and there are also the wider questions of naturalisation.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: That is a perfectly fair point. A very good article by Mr. Rogerson appeared in Public Law on this subject, which I am sure those of us who are interested have been studying. It is perfectly true that there is the question of grounds for deportation as well, and I think that the terms of reference need looking at. I have no doubt that the Home Office will take into account representations made on that. When we come to the wider issues of the next Amendment there are a great many other things which need looking at as well. At present I am restricting myself narrowly to this Amendment.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: The right hon. M ember for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) has moved an Amendment to the Schedule which has been moved until now by my party ever since 1951 and by hon. Members opposite every year between 1945 and 1951. As far as I remember, today is the first occasion on which we have had the support of the right hon. Member for Monmouth. I am grateful for it, belated though it is.
    I agree with the right hon. Member that the Government's promise goes a little beyond similar promises made by every other previous Government in the whole of that period. They have all said, "We agree with you in principle". They have all said, "We are considering it." They have all said, "If you will only leave the matter alone we will perhaps consider it during the year and perhaps by next year we will have some improved
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    machinery or legislation." The important thing is that until this year no single step has been taken to implement any of these promises. There have been the same pious, platitudinous expressions of principles. There has been no opposition from any quarter. There has been no disagreement that the position in which we have been all these years is absolutely intolerable to any liberal or freedom-loving man, but there has been absolutely no action whatever to change the situation.
    This is not true of the present Government. They have promised some action, but I am not clear what action they have promised. They have promised to set up some sort of committee to do something or other. I do not regard that in that form as a satisfaction of the objections and criticisms which have been universal for almost two generations in the House of Commons.
    It is manifestly wrong that the power of liberty should remain in the arbitrary decision of one man, and it becomes even more oppressive, tyrannical and insupportable when the Home Secretary adopts the position not merely that he has the right to decide but that he is in any practical sense not responsible to this House for what he does or omits to do. He accepts a general responsibility in principle. We can attack him on the Home Office Vote. We can put Questions to him. We can raise Adjournment debates. But so long as the Home Secretary, my right hon. and learned Friend or any other, takes the view that he is under no duty to explain to the House the reasons for what he does, he is not being responsible to this House at all and, if that were possible, he makes the position even more intolerable than it was at the beginning.
    We want to be assured that the Government are now committed to the principle that this shall never again be an arbitrary decision of any single Minister but that it shall be a judicial proceeding, the man against whom the decision is taken being entitled to know what decision has been taken, why it has been taken, what facts are alleged against him, and being given an opportunity to meet those facts instead of having the whole thing surrounded by a conspiratorial silence in which the Home Secretary accepts responsibility for numbers of cases about which, I am absolutely certain, he has no personal knowledge whatever.

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    In order to illustrate how wrong this principle is, I shall tell the Committee of one individual case. I am not asking the Home Secretary to do anything about it. This is not the occasion for that. What I shall do is to recite the details of the case so that the Committee may see how unjust the situation established by the Act, which the Government still ask us to continue, can be. Perhaps I ought not to give the name of the man concerned. If anyone challenges me to give the name, I can. I think that my right hon. and learned Friend will know of the case to which I refer.
    This man is now 67 years of age. He married a British subject. He married her in Cairo, where he lived for 40 years. He was in Cairo a refugee from Eastern Europe. He established a prosperous business, but in 1957 or thereabouts he was expelled by the Egyptian Government. He was not expelled by the Egyptian Government for any act of his. He was expelled by the Egyptian Government because he had a British wife, and the British wife was expelled by the Egyptian Government as a direct consequence of actions taken by the British Government. He was admitted, with his wife, to this country. He is stateless. There is no other country to which he can go. He came here with his wife having lost everything he had built up in the whole of his life and having lost it involuntarily for no reason for which he himself bore any responsibility.
    That was seven or eight years ago. He applied for naturalisation. He applied too soon. He was told that he had applied too soon and he was asked whether he would apply later. He waited till the five years were more than over, and then he asked for naturalisation. He remains an alien only because naturalisation was refused—or, rather, it was not refused, but it was not granted. He was told—I quote the letter:
    "With reference to your application for grant of a certificate of naturalisation, I am directed by the Secretary of State"—
    The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is going wide of the matters we can discuss here. It has been ruled before that naturalisation is not discussable on this Bill.
    Mr. Silverman: I entirely agree, Sir Samuel. Of course it is not, and if I were complaining about what the Home Secretary had done regarding the application for naturalisation, I should certainly be out of order and I should at once accept your Ruling that I ought not to pursue the matter further. But I am not complaining of that. I am using this case as an illustration from which the Committee may perceive how an arbitrary discretion can work, and the arbitrary discretion in this case is related to a man who comes within the ambit of the Act which we are now considering. He remains within the Act only because of the arbitrary exercise of the Home Secretary's discretion under another Act which enables him to exercise an arbitrary discretion over a man under this Act. I am pointing out that this works with manifest injustice.
    It was said in the letter that the Secretary of State had
    "given full and careful consideration to all the facts of the case, but …"
    but what?—
    "he is not prepared to reach a decision on it at present".
    Why ever not? I tried to find out. The letter was written on 31st January, 1964, not by my right hon. and learned Friend but by his predecessor, but when I raised the question some months later the present Government had taken over control and my right hon. and learned Friend had assumed responsibility.
    As I have said, this is a man of 67 years of age. During the seven or eight years he has been here, he has been in and out of hospital on, I think, seven or eight occasions. He is suffering from an advanced heart disease. He is in constant peril of his life. He is here through no fault of his own. He is here stateless through no fault of his own. He is here by reason of acts for which he bore no responsibility but for which this country did bear responsibility.
    It is two years since he made the application. He has still not had an answer. When I say, "Please tell me why", the answer from the Home Secretary is, "It is not our policy to tell you why". So the man still does not know what there is against him, why his application is not granted, what there is for him to answer,

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    and what chance he has of ever removing anything which is alleged to be—
    The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman really is going wide of what we are discussing.
    Mr. Silverman: What I am saying, Sir Samuel, is that any Act which gives a Minister power to decide, perhaps, a man's fate, certainly his liberty and freedom to move about, and which puts that power in the Minister's hands without laying upon him any obligation to tell the man concerned what he has against him—
    The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is referring to an Act which we are not now discussing.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Frank Soskice): Sir Samuel, my hon. Friend has given, from his point of view, a full account of the case, with the permission of the Chair, but I take it that, if I seek to reply, I shall be ruled out of order.
    4.30 p.m.
    Mr. Paget: On a point of order. I have taken part in these debates for many years and I understand the distinction to be that we cannot discuss naturalisation as such, because that arises under another Act, but we can discuss the results of refusal of naturalisation, which puts people and holds people within the Act which we are now discussing. In other words, we can discuss what happens to people who are refused naturalisation, because they then come under the law which we are now discussing.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: What brings what I am saying within the bounds of order on this occasion, Sir Samuel, is that if my right hon. and learned Friend thinks that he has any good grounds for any allegation of any importance, or any accusation of any force against this man, he can put him in prison five minutes from now and deport him from the country at any moment without telling me anything of what is in his mind and without telling me what he has against this man and without giving this man any right of appeal.
    Sir F. Soskice: On a point of order. I quite follow that argument, but I should like to have your guidance, Sir Samuel.
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    My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) having given a full account, as he sees it, of the case, how is the course of the debate to go on? I am not seeking to inhibit my hon. Friend, but shall I be able to say, "The facts are these", or, "The reason I cannot give the facts is this", or, "I am inhibited by Statute from giving the facts", or, "It is contrary to public policy to state the facts in a particular case"? If not, the debate will have gone on with a statement from one side and no reply to it.
    Mr. Silverman: Those are exactly the reasons why for many years I have thought this position to be unsatisfactory. When my right hon. and learned Friend sat on the Opposition benches, he thought that it was unsatisfactory and he must still believe that it is unsatisfactory or he would not have recommended the setting up of a committee to advise him on how the situation should be altered. I do not dissent from what my right hon. and learned Friend is saying. He knows the position to be unsatisfactory, as I believe it to be.
    The right hon. Member for Monmouth does not intend to press the Amendment precisely because he accepts the Government undertaking to appoint a committee to change the situation. All I am doing is to point out what the situation is and will continue to be if we pass the Bill in its present form. That is exactly what the situation is and I am saying that it is wrong and that it does not carry the acquiescence, let alone the active consent, of any hon. Member and certainly not the acquiescence or active consent of my right hon and learned Friend himself. He is himself proposing to change it.
    I admit that the complaint about not dealing with this man's application for naturalisation arises not under this but under some other Act and at this stage I am not making any complaint about the way in which that application was dealt with. I reserve the freedom to deal with that on another and more appropriate occasion. But that does not make it inappropriate to use it today as an illustration of the principle which is embodied in this Act and which the Government are so far asking us to continue.
    The Chairman: Perhaps I have allowed the debate to go somewhat wider than I should. We cannot discuss the Home Secretary's action under the administration of the Naturalisation Acts.
    Mr. Silverman: I am not doing that.
    The Chairman: I think that the hon. Gentleman has made his point. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary asked to what extent he would be able to reply. I ask him to limit what he has to say as nearly as he can to being within the rules of order on this particular issue. I ask him not to go into greater detail than is absolutely necessary.
    Sir F. Soskice: On a point of order. I wish to defend myself against the charges which have been made in respect of the case which has been mentioned. I would be grateful for your Ruling, Sir Samuel.
    Mr. Paget: A previous case in a very similar situation which I raised in some detail and which concerned a Hungarian in my constituency was answered by the then Home Secretary and answered most satisfactorily—he granted naturalisation.
    The Chairman: I do not think that we can take this matter any further. The position is quite clear. Naturalisation can be mentioned where relevant to the Act now under discussion and no further.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I do not in the least differ from what my right hon. and learned Friend is saying or, with respect, Sir Samuel, from what you are saying. If my right hon. and learned Friend thinks that I have stated any of the facts incorrectly, I hope that he will tell me what I have stated incorrectly. All I am endeavouring to do, and all I have endeavoured to do over the years on these occasions, is to place the Committee in possession of a set of relevant facts. If I have stated them wrongly, I am ready to correct them, but I do not think that I have stated them wrongly. It may be that I have not done justice to the Home Secretary's position. I do not know, and he does not let me know. He does not tell me his reasons and therefore I cannot form any opinion as to whether they are good or bad reasons. He does not let the man concerned know what his reasons are and that man,
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    therefore, cannot form any opinion as to whether they are good or bad reasons. It is therefore impossible to say whether the reasons are good or bad. However, that is not the point I am making.
    I am making the totally different and germane point that there is a situation in which a man's whole fortune and future depend on the arbitrary decision of one man without any reason being given and without any evidence and without any opportunity to reply. It is true, as my right hon. and learned Friend has said, that action can be taken by the man going to the Bow Street magistrate, but if the Bow Street magistrate decided that my right hon. and learned Friend was wrong, what power would that give to anybody? My right hon. Friend would not be bound by that decision. All I am saying is that this is the clearest possible instance, even though its merits are not now discussable because the issue arises under another Act, of how wrong it is in an Act such as this to give sole discretion to a Minister to refuse even to give his reasons or to accept his responsibility for what he has done. I do not propose to take the matter further. I think that the point is clear to everybody.
    I am not asking my right hon. and learned Friend now to give me the reasons which he has always refused to give. I shall ask him at some other time on a more appropriate occasion. However, I am asking the Committee to say that we should not part with the Amendment, or allow it to be withdrawn, without getting the clearest possible undertakings from my right hon. and learned Friend about the Government's determination to bring this tyrannical, oppressive and illiberal system to an end at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. George Thomas: My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman)—
    Mr. Stanley Orme: On a point of order. Can I assume that after my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary has finished his speech, we shall still be able to discuss this part of the Aliens Act?
    The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman seems to forget that we are in Committee.
    Mr. Thomas: I should not like to stand in the way of my hon. Friend the Member

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    for Salford, West (Mr. Orme). I am merely replying to the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) and my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne. My right hon. and learned Friend will reply to the debate and will, no doubt, deal with any questions.
    One question on which I presume the whole Committee will agree is that we must have control over aliens—over their admission and, when necessary, over their movements. The present control of aliens is exercised under the Aliens Order, 1953, as amended by successive Aliens Orders in 1957, 1960 and 1964. There are no powers other than these Orders for controlling either the entry of foreigners into the United Kingdom or their activities after admission and, therefore, we are bound to seek from the Committee permission for their renewal.
    The right hon. Member for Monmouth and my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne raised the question of the committee which it has been announced we propose to set up to look into the question of possible appeal procedures for both aliens and Commonwealth citizens. I tell the House at once, as I realise I told the House last year, that we accept the need for permanent legislation in this field. But now that this committee is to inquire into what right of appeal or other remedy should be available to aliens and Commonwealth citizens who are refused permission to land or who are required to leave the country, quite clearly we must await the results of its work. Sir Roy Wilson, a very distinguished lawyer who will be known to the Committee, has agreed to serve as the chairman of this committee. Until this body presents its report and a Bill can be prepared and fitted into the Parliamentary timetable, the only immediate courses before us are to pass this Measure or to enter the coming year with no control at all over aliens.
    I turn to the question of the terms of reference of the committee. Last year, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) did not regard as unimportant the issue as to whether there should be the right of appeal in questions of deportation or of refusal to land. It has been always regarded, and rightly so, by my hon. and learned Friend as a most important question whether there should be any form of
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    appeal or any limit on the powers of our officers who exercise their duties on behalf of the Home Secretary. I believe that the committee will welcome the fact that this independent committee of inquiry has been given the task of studying the question and then reporting to us.
    My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has indicated in a letter to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton, and I believe in the House, why he does not believe that a Select Committee is the best way of tackling this question. We do not want to explore the whole field of powers concerning aliens. The power of deportation must be in the hands of the Executive. Whoever seeks to govern in the land must have this ultimate power when people abuse our hospitality or prove to be unsavoury characters. Of course, the country has a right to say that there are some people who are better beyond our shores than here if they fail to behave.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: My hon. Friend will know that there is nobody in the House who disagrees with that. What I want to know from him is exactly what he means by "prove". One can prove anything against a man if one does not tell him what the charge is.
    4.45 p.m.
    Mr. Thomas: If my hon. Friend will have patience, I will come to that question in due course.
    As I come to it, may I give some information briefly and quickly about the working of our controls during the past year. During the period 1st October, 1964 to 30th September, 1965, 4,154 foreigners were refused leave to land at United Kingdom ports. But this figure must he viewed in perspective against the overall total of nearly 2,700,000 foreigners who entered the United Kingdom during the same period. Therefore, refusals of leave to land amounted to no more than one for ever 650 people who were permitted to enter.
    Of those refused admission, 1,770—well over one-third of the total—had come to work here but lacked valid labour permits. Of the remainder, 742 had insufficient means to support themselves during their proposed stay, 97 were unacceptable on medical grounds and 108 were stowaways. Of those who were unacceptable on medical grounds, some

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    50 per cent. were suffering from some sort of mental illness and others suffered from other forms of illness which made it essential for the immigration officer to decline to allow them to come in. As I say, 108 were stowaways, 339 did not have valid travel documents, 148 came without a visa in circumstances which required one and 149 sought permanent settlement for which they were ineligible. There were 478 technical refusals, which covered, in the main, people passing in transit through the country.
    The technical refusals of leave to land may be necessary because the people concerned have been deported from another country, they are passing through the United Kingdom on the way home and their travel documents are of very restricted validity. The remaining 323 who are refused leave to land could be described as undesirable for a number of reasons. Eighty-two of them were aliens with criminal propensities, known to be drug traffickers.
    I should like to remind the Committee that our immigration officers carry a great trust on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, and thus on behalf of the House of Commons, and they deserve our thanks for the compassionate, humane and vigilant way in which they undertake this task. During the past year I have spent a fair amount of my own time at the ports, and the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) came with me earlier this year to London Airport. Anyone who has firsthand experience of the immigration officers and who see how they set about their work will appreciate that we owe them an enormous debt.
    I turn to the question of expulsion. The ultimate sanction must be available, not only against foreigners recommended for deportation by the criminal courts, but against those who have broken the law by failure or refusal to comply with the conditions on which they were allowed to enter the country. But deportation is by no means frequently resorted to. The average number of foreigners deported in recent years has been rather less than 100 a year, and in 1964 the total was 59. During the first nine months of the current year, 54 deportations were carried out.
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    When it is proposed to deport a foreigner who has settled here for two years or more, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite well knows, the practice since 1956 has been, except in security cases or where deportation is recommended by a criminal court, to give the person concerned an opportunity to make representations to and to be legally represented before the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate at Bow Street. Since those arrangements were made, 117 foreigners have been eligible to make representations, but only 65 decided to avail themselves of the opportunity. In 45 of the cases that he has considered, the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate has concurred in the proposal to deport, and I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne and the Committee that in no single case has deportation been proceeded with where the Chief Magistrate did not concur when the case had been taken to him.
    Mr. Paget: May I ask the hon. Gentleman how many there were in which he did concur?
    Mr. Thomas: He concurred in 65 cases out of 117, which is roughly 70 per cent. It is, in fact, just over 69 per cent., and I have called it 70 per cent.
    The deportation figures must be looked at in relation to the total number of foreigners that there are in the United Kingdom. There are always well over 400,000 here at any one time, and during the holiday season the figure may be well over half a million.
    It would be wrong to present the image that we are in any way illiberal in the way that we approach the problem. For instance, factors such as long residence or marriage to a British subject are invariably taken into account before a deportation order is made, not only by those who hear the representations but by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary who takes the ultimate decision.
    I should like the Committee to know also that with regard to the destination of a deportee, the deportation order merely requires him to leave and to stay out. In practice, he can only be sent to the country of which he is a national or to some other country willing to receive him, and I have myself known

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    cases of people who were about to be deported and who asked not to go back to their own country but to another country which was willing to accept them.
    Sir Samuel, I know by your Ruling that I cannot go into detail in reply to my hon. Friend abort the case that he raised. I have discussed that case with him, and I have no doubt that I shall discuss it with him again. I look forward to that.
    I hope that the Committee is going to give us these controls, as I believe it will, realising that we have gone a long way to meet the wishes of the Committee as they were expressed last year, in particular by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton and although he has not got the Select Committee for which he asked, he has succeeded and the Committee has succeeded in obtaining a committee which now will inquire quite independently into whether there should be a right of appeal to people refused admission and to people faced with deportation, so that the nightmare to which my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne referred will be under examination. With that understanding I hope that the Committee will agree to renew these proposals.
    Mr. Philip Goodhart: Before the Joint Under-Secretary sits down, I should like to ask him one question. As he will remember, in paragraph 6 of the White Paper on the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration—the ombudsman White Paper—it is said that amongst those who will have access to the Parliamentary Commissioner will be
    "persons living abroad if their complaint is about the administration of individuals' rights or obligations arising here."
    Is it intended by the Government that the ombudsman should consider appeals from a decision of the immigration officer on refusing aliens admission to this country?
    Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman has asked me a question to which the answer is in the negative. I think, therefore, that the best thing that we can do is to await the advice that we shall receive from the independent committee.
    Mr. Paget: My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary said that since 1951 this subject had been raised always on the other side. Quite frankly, it has been raised by me wherever I have been sitting. Last year it was raised on this side, and it would have been raised on this side again if the right hon. Gentleman had not beaten me by about 30 seconds.
    I want now to come back to the issues in the case and to state the reasons why both the form and the terms of reference of the proposed inquiry seem to me to be wholly unsatisfactory.
    There are three matters which have to be looked at about an alien. How does he get here? What happens to him when he is here? What happens to him as and when he goes? I shall deal with them under those heads.
    Firstly, as far as admission is concerned, I am not for a moment questioning the fact that it must ultimately be a question of discretion. The country must have a discretion as to whom it chooses to admit and, because there has to be a discretion there, a form of judicial tribunal seems to me to be unsatisfactory and always has. I do not think that a form of judicial tribunal can substitute itself effectively for a departmental discretion. All that it can really do is to deal with the specific matters which may be referred to it within the discretion. I will come back to that in a moment.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I appreciate the difficulties that my hon. and learned Friend has in mind, but he will know, will he not, that there are countries which have found ways out of the difficulties, notably the United States of America where, if an immigrant is refused leave to land, he has an appeal to a quasi-judicial tribunal, so that at least the man knows what is alleged against him.
    5.0 p.m.
    Mr. Paget: There again my hon. Friend has picked on what seems to me to be the vital point, namely, to know what is alleged against the person concerned, and this is what I have always urged. I believe that a person should have the right to know, first, what is alleged against him, and, secondly, when he knows that and challenges matters of fact, he should be

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    able to ask the Department to take another look at those facts. That is all that I have ever asked for on this issue.
    People coming here are interviewed by an immigration officer who has to come to a decision. I do not think that it would be practical at that point to interject a judicial hearing, but what I think one can do is to say that if he is refused entry he must be told why, and told specifically, and if he challenges any of the reasons he may ask the immigration officer to hold back his decision. There will, of course, have to be some arrangement about where he can be held while the specific facts which he challenges are examined.
    If he is refused entry on medical grounds, I think it may be not unreasonable to say, "I should like a second opinion on this one" because medical grounds are often very tragic in these circumstances, particularly when it is a question of families reuniting, and that sort of thing, and I should not have thought that one was giving away too much by saying that if the person concerned challenges the particular illness, or the contention that it is a danger to the community into which he is going, a second opinion might be obtained.
    I do not propose to go through all the examples, but to take only a few. If a man is accused of being a drug trafficker, I think he should be told where he was said to have committed such a crime. It might be said that it happened in Cairo. He may answer, "I have never been to Cairo in my life. The chap you have in mind is someone else, with my name". I do not think that that sort of thing occurs very often, but it can occur, and in those circumstances I should have thought it would be reasonable for the man concerned to be told why he is not being allowed to enter. I think he should be entitled to say, "This is wrong. You can verify what I have said in the following ways: please do so". That seems to me to be a fairly reasonable thing to do and it is the only thing for which I have asked.
    That is all the right of appeal I have asked for, and I cannot see how one can have any effective appeal unless the man is given reasons for not being allowed to enter the country. He should be given
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    the reasons, and, if he disputes any of them, provided he is prepared to cover the expense of staying here while the inquiry is made, in the event of the inquiry going against him, he should be in a position to ask for the reasons to be verified.
    So much for that, and I now come to what I think is the important thing here, and that is not the provision of the right of appeal against the refusal to admit, but an examination of the grounds, or the general rules, for making these exclusions. I agree that there has to be a discretion here in working on certain general rules, but that discretion and those rules ought to be examined by a committee.
    For instance, generally speaking, there does not seem to be any very good reason for denying anybody the right to come here if he can support himself and is, in this sense, a sort of built-in export in that he provides currency to support himself and that currency is usable in foreign markets. I do not see why that sort of person should not be allowed in. I should have thought that that was the kind of question which a committee might consider. Provided the person concerned is respectable, if he wishes to come here, and he can provide the cost of his upkeep and thereby provide us with currency and so help our balance of payments, I do not see why he should not be allowed in. He would not seem to hurt us, and I do not see why we should hurt him. At the moment such a person is not allowed to enter this country.
    I come next to the question of health. I should have thought that a committee might be given certain guidance on this. Obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere. We do not want to exclude somebody merely because he has a nasty cold, but we certainly do want to exclude a person who has tertiary syphilis. A line must be drawn somewhere between those two extremes, and I should have thought that a committee could look at it and see whether one could be.
    I deal next with the work requirement, the permits which are issued through the Ministry of Labour. Surely this is something which a committee can consider to see whether this can be brought within the general structure of the law.
    Another point which is not covered is whether a person should be entitled to

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    come here if he is coming here because he wants to marry.
    The final point with which I wish to deal is the question of security. Here there has to be an ultimate discretion, but I cannot believe that a lot of people are excluded because in a security sense they are a danger to the country. If we really think a man is a spy, I should have thought that we would be only too pleased to have him in jurisdiction where we can watch him for a bit to enable us to discover his security network. I see little point in excluding people because we think they are spies. Other countries have intelligence budgets and I should prefer them to use their funds on spies we know rather than on spies we do not know.
    Mr. Michael Foot: They are only posing as spies to get in.
    Mr. Paget: If they are only posing as spies to get in, there seems to be no security reason for excluding them.
    What we want—and I think that we must be together here—is that the person concerned should be given the reasons for his exclusion. We want general rules on which a discretion may be exercised. We want some kind of power to be able to ask the Minister to think again and to have another look where a decision is challenged because a fact is challenged.
    When a man comes in he should be under our rule of law. I can see little object in making the law different for him. One of the verses of Exodus says:
    "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."
    That seems to be a very good general guide. But we are told that we want to control the movements of aliens here. Again, I should have thought that a committee ought to consider the question whether all this rather elaborate machinery to control the movement of aliens is of any value.
    It works admirably for the alien whom there is no point in controlling—the alien who is complying with the law—but it works not at all for the alien who wishes to avoid the law. That can be tested by the number of au pair girls and students who disappear. Anybody who is trying to evade the law simply disappears from the register. It is only those who are ccmplying with the law anyway who
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    remain registered. Therefore, I doubt whether the procedure is worth the money, trouble and time that it takes. This, again, is the sort of thing which a committee should look at.
    Then—and from a libertarian point of view this is far and away the most important case—there is the man who is subject to an expulsion order which cannot be exercised because there is no country which will take him. He becomes a person totally without any rights. He can be imprisoned indefinitely, without a charge. He is in the fullest sense of the word an outlaw. An expulsion order which is made on a man and which cannot be executed is an order of outlawry.
    In my view, it is in flagrant contradiction to the provisions of the Charter of Human Rights. In very much the same sort of position is the man who is refused naturalisation. We cannot go into the workings of the Act; we can only deal with its results, because its results are the people who are subject to this Act. Here we have people placed in a position of less than citizenship—unable to become solicitors, or to join a number of other professions, or to join the public service. They are held in this position of inferiority indefinitely.
    5.15 p.m.
    The Temporary Chairman (Sir Herbert Butcher): Order. The hon. and learned Member is wandering rather far from the subject of the debate. He must not discuss the question of naturalisation.
    Mr. Paget: With respect, Sir Herbert, that is not so. The Amendment deals precisely with what happens to aliens who are here and to the man who is refused naturalisation. I cannot refer to what happens up to that point, but once a man is refused naturalisation he comes right within the terms of the Bill, and I submit that I am completely in order in discussing his position.
    The Temporary Chairman: I have been listening to the hon. and learned Gentleman very carefully. At the moment he is approaching the edge of the precipice. In the debate which took place in 1961 the ground which the hon. and learned Member is now traversing was denied him by the Chairman, and I shall follow my predecessor's example.
    Mr. Paget: It comes near the line. If I fell over the precipice before I shall watch my position today.
    A man who is denied naturalisation remains under this Act. He cannot join a number of professions. He may have been an articled clerk, but he cannot become a solicitor. There are many disabilities about his position. He has no means of escaping them. He can be given no reason why he is maintained in this inferior position. The Declaration of Human Rights, to which we are parties, provides that every man shall have a right of nationality and a right to change his nationality. That is something to which we have subscribed. We are dealing only with people who are here as permanent residents—people who will remain here in the future. What is the excuse for keeping them in an inferior position?
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. That is exactly the ground that I indicated that the hon. and learned Member must not develop.
    Mr. Paget: Precisely. I have finished with that point. But this kind of consideration is excluded not only from this debate; it is also very wrongly excluded from examination by the committee which my right hon. Friend is thinking of setting up.
    Thirdly, I come to the question of expulsion. This question covers some very important points. The Under-Secretary said that the man who was expelled was generally sent to his own country, which was the only place to which he could be sent. That is not always so. This power is sometimes used as an alternative to extradition in cases which are not covered by the Extradition Acts. That was the position with Dr. Soblen. He had the opportunity of going to Czechoslovakia. The Czechs said that they would take him and would be pleased to do so, in spite of which he was put on an aeroplane to America, where he was going to be punished for an offence for which he could not have been extradited.
    There was an even earlier case, when we were in alliance with France. It is a House of Lords case, and concerned the Duke of Château-Thierry, who was trying to avoid military service and who wanted to go to America but whom we returned to France at the request of the
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    French Government. Whether expulsion should be used as a substitute for extradition when the House has given no powers to extradite is at least a matter which ought to have been within the terms of reference of any worthwhile committee on this subject.
    Those are my broad objections to the terms of reference. If we are to have a civilised aliens law which complies with the Declaration of Human Rights we require an examination by a committee with far wider terms of reference than merely the power to see how we should set up a tribunal to consider questions of discretion, the terms of discretion being outside the tribunal's jurisdiction.
    I now come to the means, which is a Select Committee, for which I have often asked. I believe that a committee of investigation—a Royal Commission or anything of that sort—is an inefficient means of preparing legislation. It gets out of step with the Department which has to operate the legislation and, when it makes its recommendations, the Department has no difficulty in shooting them down. This sort of consideration is a pretext for not doing things.
    The right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) may or may not confirm my opinion in this, but I think that it has always been a tradition of the Home Office—at any rate, since I have dealt with them—that their motto is, "Never give a reason: it always causes trouble". A Department of that sort, if it is given the last word, will find admirable reasons for not giving reasons for ignoring suggestions by a committee.
    The whole point of a Select Committee is that while it is working the dialogue with the Department is continuous. The Select Committee makes its proposal; the Department gives its reasons why not. Those reasons are then thrashed out between the Select Committee and the Department, with reference, if necessary, to the Minister, who can go to the Select Committee. Step by step, the thing is worked out and agreed. It is no use imposing legislation on a Department which has to make it work and will not do so. Agreement has to be reached. But it was under such a system that the War Office, having said that a comprehensive Act was impracticable, in fact worked out and produced the Army Act.

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    There is a continual dialogue, phase by phase. The Department cannot simply say, "You cannot do that." They have to give their reasons, and one can then go into them and answer them and see how, if possible, to get what one wants. Therefore, by this continual dialogue between the two sides, an Act is built up, and one gets what one is looking for. One would never get that from a Royal Commission or anything of the sort. The conversation is broken off and recommendations are made which are unacceptable to the Department; and the Department has the last word.
    The Select Committee of which I was a member met for about a year and we worked out and drafted an Act to do something which the Department had for years said could not be done. The Government agreed to it without one amendment; the House agreed to it without one amendment; and, after five years, only five minor amendments were required. I do not know why a procedure as successful as that could not be attempted again. What we should do now on the basis of the reply we have heard in advance, I think, is to say to the Government, "No, we are not giving you this renewal now. Take it back and think again before Report stage and see if you cannot give us a better answer than you have so far indicated."
    For years, Governments have blackmailed this House with the threat of suicide, and said, "If you do not do what we ask, if you ever defeat us, there will be an election." I do not think anybody will suggest for a moment that there will be an election if we send this back to the Government and insist that they have another look at it before Report. Unless Parliament sometimes does something like that, we will lapse into futility. It is true that, in a modern system strong government must be given on the great and general questions, but no dialogue is satisfactory if one party to it always has its way.
    There are many occasions—and I believe that this is one—when this House, if it respects itself, should insist upon having its way for a change. We must see what is said in reply, but this is certainly the direction in which my mind is running at the moment.
    Mr. Antony Buck: I am attracted by the ideas just expressed by
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    the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). As our inclination, even more than his, is to say "No" to the Government, we shall listen with particular care to what the Home Secretary says in reply to the point which the hon. and learned Member made. The idea of a Select Committee has great attractions over the type of committee which is proposed at the moment. I am concerned with the operation of the present Regulations under the Act and the way in which the Act works at the moment. This has a direct bearing on what the hon. and learned Gentleman said about security.
    I should like from the Home Secretary an explanation of why the Act concerning impositions relates to au pair girls from behind the Iron Curtain. At the moment—this will interest hon. Gentlemen opposite below the Gangway—there is a general prohibition by the Government, to the effect that au pair girls from behind the Iron Curtain should not stay here for more than one year. This seems a preposterous situation. The reason given is that it is for security. The idea of the Hungarian Government filling up this country with a lot of little au pair Mata Haris seems to me utterly absurd.
    This situation came to my notice—as both the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and the Home Secretary know—because of an individual case which was brought to my attention, that of Miss Tunde Balogh. Whether she is any relation to a certain adviser of the Government I know not. All I know is that she is a young lady—I did not have the good fortune to meet her—who impressed others as being attractive and very pro-British. She had been over here for a year in an au pair capacity and she wanted to stay on for a further period. There was no suggestion that she was a spy. She was recognised as working here so as to learn English. She wanted to stay over here, and those employing her wanted her to stay.
    It was through the British Council that the case was brought to my notice. The Home Office said "She must go home on the dot after one year." I wrote to the Joint Under-Secretary about this. I have always regarded him as the most courteous of men, but on this occasion his letter was a little curt. I talked to him

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    about the position and, eventually, we managed—as a great concession—to get permission for Miss Balogh to stay for an extra three weeks. At first, because she came from behind the Iron Curtain, she had been refused permission to stay for even a short period to take a holiday to go to the Edinburgh Festival. At first the Home Office refused to allow her to stay for even an extra two or three weeks. However, eventually she got that small concession.
    5.30 p.m.
    How easily and how readily does the Home Office regard "security" as being the term or broad category for excluding people? Is it sound sense to exclude all au pair girls from behind the Iron Curtain on security grounds? If there are other grounds, cannot we be told them? Why are these girls singled out more than au pair girls from other inimical régimes? Hon. Gentleman opposite might mention au pair girls from, say, Spain and Portugal.
    I should be interested to hear why the Home Office takes this extraordinary view in these cases and whether there are, as it were, any other overall security blanket directives which govern these matters. The Joint Under-Secretary paid an appropriate tribute to the immigration officers who must deal with the Act. He described them as both compassionate and humane, and I absolutely concur. However, I have certain doubts, in view of the case I have mentioned, about the compassion and humanity of the way in which the Act is being implemented.
    Mr. Orme: I, too, wish to give an example of the way in which the Act can operate at present. I have taken note of the Joint Under-Secretary's remarks about the setting up of a committee of inquiry and I would like to know whether it will operate under the jurisdiction of the Home Office and whether it will be particularly liberal in its outlook. For the time being we will have to hope for the best and see what happens.
    Justice must not only be done but be seen to be done. That is, perhaps, the most important pillar on which our democracy has been built. Bearing that in mind, it must be said that in some of the recent battles with the Home Office under former Home Secretaries that
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    Department's views in this matter have not seemed particularly liberal. I recall the case of General Delgado, the Portuguese General who received what I can only describe as abominable treatment. I would like to know the full facts in that case.
    It is often to be regretted that the Home Secretary cannot reveal the reasons why he takes a certain course. The person concerned should, I suggest, always know why a certain course is being adopted and be given an opportunity to answer any charges made against him. In many instances people do not know why the Home Office is acting against them and not even hon. Members are given the information.
    I wish to raise the case of Mr. Bert Benson, a prohibited immigrant from this country at the present time. Mr. Benson has no objection to my raising this matter or mentioning his name. An American citizen, he was living and working in this country when he committed two cardinal errors. The first was that he married a young lady who was working at the Foreign Office, which was not looked upon very benignly by that Department. The second was that he made a statement, when his expulsion was ordered by the Home Secretary, to the effect that he would not give himself up until a Labour Government was returned because, he stated, he would get better treatment from a Socialist Home Secretary.
    While in this country Mr. Benson took part in political activities. I am raising this case and have mentioned that fact because the most difficult cases are usually those involving people who have taken part in political activities. Passions are more usually aroused when such activities are involved. Mr. Benson took part in C.N.D. activities. He did not take part in Committee of One Hundred activities, as other aliens have done. On one occasion only he was charged with having caused an obstruction during a demonstration.
    Mr. Benson was made a prohibited immigrant by the former Home Secretary and left this country. He now lives in West Germany, in Frankfurt-on-Main. He has made several applications to the present Home Secretary to be allowed to return to this country because his wife and parents-in-law live here. Mr. Benson's wife had a baby in February of this

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    year and, under great pressure, the Home Secretary permitted him to return to see his wife and child. He later made application to return to this country to spend Christmas with his family—to be here for a purely domestic and social reason—and said that he would be willing to give any undertaking to the Home Office if his re-entry for Christmas were permitted. That application was refused by the Home Secretary, who merely stated "I am not prepared to alter the previous decision made by the previous Home Secretary." We have had a change of Government. If there are reasons why Mr. Benson should remain a prohibited immigrant or should not be permitted to come here for a short visit we should be told them.
    A number of rumours or stories, some of them quite fantastic, have circulated about Mr. Benson. They cannot be answered or denied because the Home Office will not supply its reasons for taking the course it has in this case. Somebody in this country originated the story that Mr. Benson was an agent of the C.I.A. and had been prohibited on those grounds. Mr. Benson has in writing categorically denied any association with any such organisation in any country.
    When I went to Frankfurt last May to attend a meeting I met Mr. Benson and b ad a long talk with him about his deportation. I asked him many questions about his activities while in Britain and about his intentions when or if he is allowed to return here. I received en-t rely frank and satisfactory answers to all my questions. It is, therefore, incumbent on the Home Secretary to tell the House exactly why Mr. Benson is not being allowed in. Many other people are allowed entry to and exit from this country very easily—people who would seem to be much more undesirable than Mr. Bert Benson.
    For taking part in a perfectly legitimate demonstration in this country—remembering that the right of assembly and demonstration is recognised to be tae privilege of all—this man was made a prohibited immigrant. Now he wishes to return to this country, or certainly to have the questions which have been asked about this case answered by the Home Secretary.
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    Will this committee that has been set up be able to act retrospectively? Will people be able to put their cases to it, and have an answer in relation to the charges made against them? One of the world's problems is that in many countries we find the Executive using a hard, firm hand in the name of security against individuals. I do not care where the individuals reside, they have a right to be heard, and this country should set the example.
    The Home Office should unfetter itself a little. In spite of what the Under-Secretary said, his Department does not have a terribly good reputation for a liberal point of view, and the Commonwealth Immigrants Act will not help. Therefore, I hope that under the Aliens Act my right hon. and learned Friend will show some humanitarian feeling towards the problem I have mentioned and to the parallel case referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman).
    I hope that aliens will be allowed the same right of appeal as that prescribed in the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. It is no use saying to people who have only a few days' notice that they can apply to the Bow Street magistrate. That is not satisfactory democratically. I therefore hope that when this committee reports we shall get some satisfaction; that some of these cases that are at the moment a blot on British democracy and the proud tradition that this country has followed for many years can be righted; and that my right hon. and learned Friend will set the lead in seeing that it is done.
    Mr. Eric Lubbock: I want to support the advocacy of the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) of the case of Mr. Bert Benson. Having seen Mr. Benson, and having had discussions with him over a period of several hours, I know that the hon. Member will find it as ludicrous as I do to imagine that Mr. Benson could be a security risk. The hon. Member has said that anyone who is deported should have the right of appeal. He will be aware that under the European Convention on Establishment, to which this country adhered in 1956, an alien who has been resident in this country for more than two years has a right of appeal to the Chief Metropolitan

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    Magistrates, except in cases where he is to be deported for
    "… imperative considerations of national security."
    That is the phrase used in the document.
    If the reasons were as important as all that, the Home Secretary was incorrect in allowing Mr. Benson into this country for a month at the time of the birth of his child. If the man is a dangerous maniac who will undermine the State, the right hon. and learned Gentleman should not have done that at all. He should have closed his heart to Mr. Benson's appeals, and should not have allowed him to be present at the birth of his child. Of course, we do not believe this. We who have been interested in this case all the time have argued with the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary, and we find it impossible to accept that imperative considerations of national security, or any other considerations of national security, apply in this case.
    Nothing in what has been said by the Home Office has given any support at all to that allegation. I have had a number of discussions with Mr. Benson, and have asked what he thinks could be the reason. He has complained that some circumstances in his activities in this country might have been misconstrued by the Home Office. I think that all these activities were perfectly innocent, unless the Government are to say that association with an organisation like C.N.D. is an imperative threat to national security. I asked in the previous Parliament, but never had an answer: just what is meant by that phrase? I think that it is a shabby pretence that we are becoming more liberal in signing the European Convention on Establishment unless we are to say exactly what we mean.
    As has been stated, Mr. Benson has applied to visit this country, not for an extended stay but merely to say with his parents-in-law over the Christmas holidays. He is prepared to give any sort of undertaking the Home Office may demand about his behaviour during the visit. I think that it is inhuman to turn down this application. Mr. Benson has already been allowed in for the birth of his child. What damage will it do to the country? Is it thought that he will go about blowing up airfields during the
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    Christmas holidays? Does the Home Secretary think that?
    It is a ludicrous state of affairs, and I should like a much more thorough explanation than that which I received in a letter from the Home Secretary dated 19th November. I wrote pointing out that he had allowed Mr. Benson in for the birth of his child, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman replied that the Home Office felt it right to let him enter in that case because of compassionate considerations, and because of the requirement that he had to be present for the registration of the birth of his child.
    5.45 p.m.
    Compassionate considerations apply now. Are we to say that Mr. Benson is never again to be permitted to visit the country; never to be allowed to see his mother-in-law, and his wife's family? This attitude is quite inhuman, and cannot be defended in this House. I hope that the Home Secretary will reconsider his approach to this case, and that we shall have some sort of undertaking that he is prepared to allow Mr. Benson in to see his family.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: I rise to refer to a small point that has not yet been touched on. I agreed with almost all that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) said, except for two or three words which I think got into his speech by mistake. The words were "provided they can pay for it." If I understood the Under-Secretary's statement aright, something like 147 people were refused admission because they had no money—the expression was "no means." I may have the figure slightly wrong. It is not a big figure, but that is the important point. It is not a figure that would really threaten the existence of our £1,000 million reserve in the National Insurance Fund, or the £100 million reserve in the Industrial Injuries Fund, or a sum that will prevent us from paying subsidies to United Airways. As I say, it was something like 147, but I may have the figure wrong. My hearing is not good, and I think that today some of the articulation has not been good—but one of the things that happens to people going deaf is that they always suspect others of lack of clarity.
    I cannot follow the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Buck)—I do not know

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    precisely what an au pair girl is. I have never known what a security risk is; how it is defined, or who defined it or what it means, whether we have any secrets and, if we have, why we have any. If we have any secrets I should have thought we would have to go to Nevada Flats to find them at the moment. There are a lot of things about our political life and policy that I should like to have explained by some competent inquirer from abroad, who has been told to find out why we are continuing to test the Polaris missiles underground, although they are not ready to be launched, and we know not what they are to be used for when launched. But I cannot hope to get that information in this debate.
    I was brought up to believe—or, at least, I was told that I ought to believe, and much of it I do accept—one or two propositions. The first is that to have no money is a sign of character and that to have money makes one what I might call a financial security risk. It raises a question of dubiety about how one acquired it. The poor shall inherit the earth, but not apparently:
    "This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England."
    It is difficult for a rich man to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, but apparently comparatively simple for him to get into this country. [Laughter.] Whenever I slate obvious and ethical truths someone laughs, but is it not the case that what the Home Office is saying is that if a man arrives here with £200,000 and no character he can land at once, but if a man arrives with a high character and less than a shilling he will not be permitted to land. I pointed out in art earlier debate that if the Twelve Apostles arrived at Dover tomorrow the only one likely to qualify, unless the financial situation of the others had improved from the time when their lives were recorded, would be Judas Iscariot with his 30 pieces of silver, which he might have invested productively in the meantime so that he had considerably more.
    I know that this observation is quite capable of misrepresentation, but I want the ports to be open to people who might come here and live on National Assistance and so on. Who are these people? Where do they come from and why do they come? I suspect that every
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    one of these cases which has been refused for lack of means is a case of personal tragedy. I cannot think that people who have no means and presumably no great skill, if one wanted to help them over a temporary difficulty, would come here unless they were driven by the impetus of some severe and tragic misfortune, unless they come to join relatives here.
    I make no personal criticism of the Home Office. I think it has shown itself fairly enlightened, except when we discuss things which are related to the next Amendment. I have no personal criticism and I have had better letters from the Home Office in some developments, some helpful ones, than I had for some time. I do not want to join the chorus of criticism, but the Home Office has not been very responsive to opinions which hon. Members have expressed on this matter ever since 1945, and sometimes before.
    It has always been said that this Measure was conceived of war and renewed with very little discussion after the war, that in fact the original Measure was passed, it was never debated at all and has never been considered by this House, although this House has constantly manifested a desire that it should be. I should have thought the arguments for a Select Committee on this matter are overwhelming. I have no doubt that my right hon. and learned Friend would select men of the highest repute and character, but on a political committee I like to know something about people's political views. The theory is that a man with no views on politics is one of independent mind, but I think that one with no political views has no mind at all, unless he is a super-expert examining and acquiring knowledge in a limited sphere and shown to concentrate his mind on the microcosms of his own particular science.
    What happens to these people? Many of them may have come a long way. Are they stowed away in the under decks of some boat and deported? What happens to each and every one of these individual tragedies? I can see the argument and I can see the difficulty. It is no use now talking in this curious world of:
    "Bring me your starved, your poor, your teeming millions waiting to breathe free."
    There is a great tradition which will never be repeated of victims of religious

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    persecution, the Huguenots and people who constitute most of the population of the United States, the teeming millions who fled from poverty, but in a world where there are not teeming millions fleeing from poverty—except Commonwealth immigrants, very largely—is there not some means whereby at least we could consider the applicant if his only fault is lack of means?
    Of course, my right hon. and learned Friend may say that person has not a work permit and that he has not satisfied the Home Office, but if a man comes in distress and suffering from poverty, what is the method of considering his case? What is the method of giving a decision, the locus poenitentiae used by the officers examining the case? Who has time to think of them and look at the circumstances? Who has time to say that here is a fit candidate for the hospitality of a country which at one time used to display a generous heart to the world and which is even now producing an economic plan which suggests that we shall be short in the working population by 200,000 in four years' time and may have to offer inducements to get workers to keep this country going?
    Mr. Will Griffiths: I do not intend to keep the Committee for long, because I know that many of my hon. Friends want to get on to the other part of the business. I have been here throughout the debate and have listened to every word that has been said. In particular, I heard what was said by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) about the case of Mr. Benson. I want to say something, not entirely about that case, because I do not know about it as they do, but about what has been happening over this procedure.
    When I have taken part in these debates I have found that in a way they never change. It is like a stock play in which the characters represent the Home Office; there may be different actors playing their rôles, but every year they say the same sort of thing. The Home Office will have heard repeated complaints about the traditional failure to give people reasons for deportation. I296
    am very conscious of the difficulty which the Home Office faces, and I hope to recommend some remedial action and to suggest how the Home Office could tackle this difficult problem, but I point out that the Home Office must have thought about this and must know where this situation leads them.
    I have referred to what the hon. Member for Orpington said about Mr. Benson. I draw particular attention to what he said because we do not know the reasons why Mr. Benson was deported. The Home Office has its reasons but says that it cannot give the reasons, so the field is wide open to speculation. So the hon. Member for Orpington says that it is because of Mr. Benson's C.N.D. activities and that it is an absurdity that this should be held against him. If that is true, I agree that it is an absurdity, but if it is true what is the position of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary who is a lifelong pacifist? How does he feel about it? He is in a difficulty arising from this kind of procedure.
    Mr. George Thomas: My hon. Friend is accurate in his description of me. I should say that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) was merely speculating on what were the security reasons and, of course, it is impossible for me to say, but certainly they were not those of being a pacifist.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. Griffiths: I fully understand the difficulty. That is exactly what I am saying to the Committee. These difficulties arise out of the existing procedure. I will give the Committee another example. It is somewhat out of date, but it is relevant to the argument. I can well remember that as long ago as when the Deputy Leader of the Opposition was Minister of Supply a case occurred in which, on the direct intervention of the Government, a man was dismissed from his job on security grounds. I know this is not deportation, but it is relevant to this argument about the Home Office refusing to give information.
    There was a great deal of publicity about this case at the time. The man who was sacked had had the unwisdom to marry a lady who was a former member of the Communist Party. He himself was a solicitor looking at defence contracts in a very high position in one of

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    the big industrial complexes in this country. When the Minister was challenged in the House of Commons on whether it was a fact that this gentleman had been moved because he had married a lady who was a former member of the Communist Party, the Minister, the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), told the House of Commons, "Yes, but there are other things against him". This is the worst smear of all, because then the field is wide open to speculation.
    This is why I say that, if my right hon. and learned Friend and his colleagues at the Home Office refuse to give reasons in the case of a man like Benson or in any cases of this kind, they do a disservice to the alien against which he cannot defend himself anywhere, they leave it wide open to the most malicious speculation as to what is against the alien, and they damage their own political and personal reputation, as well as the reputation of the party to which they belong.
    I fully understand the special difficulties in security cases, because the Home Office is trying to anticipate the State's being injured and not deal with it after the event, as is done with a burglar or with a bigamist. When such a person is caught, there is a prescribed rule of law. The person has his defence. Witnesses have to be heard in open court.
    We know that there is a special difficulty here, but I suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend and his colleagues that they might look at the possibility of prescribing what are sensitive posts and sensitive courses of study for students in this country. They should warn aliens, and in particular students coming to this country, because I have had a lot to do with this kind of case, where they are exposing themselves to alleged security risks. if the security officers believe that such persons are a danger—I think that many of these cases are absolutely absurd—at the very least such persons should be told what it is that is held against them.
    The present situation amounts to this. Many people say that there is the defence of Ministerial responsibility, that a Minister of the Crown looks into all these allegations. That is absolute nonsense. I do not say that they do not do it. I ask hon. Members to consider a case I had which I think is relevant. I have
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    in mind a Chinese student at Manchester University who was deported because he was a security risk. I understand that he is now happily working in Sweden, making a much appreciated and skilful contribution to their economic growth. He had to leave this country on security grounds.
    I went to see the Minister. This was before my hon. Friends were in office. The Minister concerned could not tell me anything, because the man was a security risk. Yet I remember the Minister at the Home Office pointing out to me—this demonstrates our peculiarly absurd British methods—"At least we allowed him to stay and complete his degree course". If these people are security risks, they should go at once. It makes one concerned about the whole basis of the operation of this law when that kind of answer is given.
    I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend and his colleagues will have heard today, as they have heard before—indeed, I am not sure that they did not contribute to this when they were in opposition—repeated pleas that they should not exercise the arbitrary powers that they possess and remove people without giving them any reasons.
    I am convinced that if my right hon. and learned Friend and his colleagues apply their minds to this in the very difficult field of security procedure it will be possible to arrive at a solution which, while protecting the interests of the State, will give a greater degree of liberty to the individual. If I have the opportunity, I hope, together with some of my hon. Friends who are similarly interested, to persuade the Ministers at the Home Office of how this can be done, by a method which will let them out of the nasty situation they are in and which will reduce to an absolute minimum the possibility of these miscarriages of justice occurring in the future.
    Sir F. Soskice: This debate has been on a subject about which I suppose the House of Commons is as sensitive as it is upon any other subject, namely, the subject of civil liberties. It would be utterly alien to the tradition of the House of Commons to treat a debate of this sort as otherwise than one of first class importance. As the Minister having

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    some sort of responsibility in this connection, obviously I have listened with the very greatest care to the criticisms which have been directed at my administration and that of my predecessors by various hon. Members who have spoken.
    I ask the Committee to get this matter in perspective. I hope that hon. Members do not think it fair to represent the Home Office and the tradition of successive Home Office Ministers as some kind of ogreish monster. I remind hon. Members, in order to get the matter into perspective, of some figures which my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary gave. I do not intend to repeat them in detail. To give two figures which he mentioned, last year from October, 1964 to the end of September, 1965, no fewer than 2,700,000 aliens entered the United Kingdom. There were only 4,154 refusals of leave to land—in other words, a percentage of 0·15.
    With great deference to the Committee, a Department which succeeds—I hope that it succeeds—in discharging its responsibility at any rate to watch those who come to these shores, to ensure that undesirable persons are not admitted, or are not admitted in too great numbers, and to ensure that proper regard is had for security considerations, cannot be a Department which is impervious to considerations of humanity and to the duty which everybody of conscience owes to the broad civilised concept of civil liberty and civil dignity if it admits that vast host of persons—2,700,000—and excludes only about 4,000.
    I most earnestly put it to the Committee that it would be right, in fairness to my Department and, I hope, to my administration and to my predecessors' administration, not to approach the matter as if our proceedings were proceedings which gave rise to a train of unhappy cases in which cruelty was exhibited in wanton decisions given without consideration and without careful analysis and sifting of the facts. That is quite wide of the mark. It just is not the case.
    No doubt in this country, with its tradition of hospitality and liberty, it would be, if we were able to manage it, desirable to throw the doors open as wide as possible. But I think one must accept—I believe that all my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite who have
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    spoken during the debate have accepted—that in the case of an island of our sort, with its territorial limits, frankly it is not practicable to apply a principle of that sort. Therefore, one has to have some immigration control and some control of persons who are not citizens of this country while they are here.
    Hon. Members have mentioned only three cases—Mr. Benson, Colonel Delgado and Miss Balogh. This is not the appropriate place for me to add to what I have already said on those cases—on the first two, publicly in this House. It really is quite unrealistic to think that decisions are arbitrary and not open to challenge. I can be challenged, and ought to be challenged, day in and day out by hon. Members from their places in this House.
    Dr. M. S. Miller: Before he leaves this point, will my right hon. and learned Friend say how many of the 2,700,000 people he mentioned are holidaymakers and tourists coming to this country and how many of them are persons who have applied for entry into this country either to work or to stay here?
    Sir F. Soskice: To give the complete breakdown would take time, but I accept at once that a very large number are holidaymakers and visitors—the great preponderance. But they need just as careful examination as anybody else. One cannot say that they are holidaymakers and so one can forbear from making any inquiry into their cases. The responsibility which my Department owes to the public is to examine and consider all entrants. No doubt a different and perhaps more thorough type of examination is devoted to some than to others. As to au pair girls from Iron Curtain countries, I say at once that I would not pretend that persons who come from behind the Iron Curtain are treated on exactly the same footing as others. A certain care has to be exercised for security reasons, which I do not think I need dilate upon in this debate. One has to use—I try to use—a sensible discretion in assessing the degree of care and the thoroughness of examination which is appropriate in the case of the various classes of entrant. I have figures here, but it would take time to read them out. I will give them to my

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    hon. Friend if he wants them. So I start from that general proposition.
    What have been the points of substance raised in the debate? I accept at once that there have been a number of points of substance. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman), whose sincerity and, I would add, Parliamentary dexterity are well known in this House, raised the general point that it is utterly undesirable that the fate or destiny of an individual, particularly an alien who is not naturalised, should rest in the arbitrary discretion of a single person, the Home Secretary of the time. It is a little of a misdescription to say that. The Home Secretary is rightly subjected to every sort of pressure where it is suspected or thought that he has committed an injustice or has failed to take into account something which ought to have been taken into account in favour of the person applying for naturalisation. I accept that it is open to question as to whether his ipse dixit should represent the final decision in the matter. I shall come in a moment in that context to the Committee that we thought it right to set up.
    There is a broad question of principle which I accept. In the debate last year these matters were ventilated, and I accepted then that there was a case for some kind of appeal if it was workable. I pointed out then the practical difficulties of an appeal in the case, for example, of refusals to land and in the case of requirements to leave, but particularly in the case of refusals to land. But there is a point for consideration, and that is one of the reasons why the Government have announced the setting up of the Committee. So I accept it when it is said that there should be—
    6.15 p.m.
    Mr. Paget: I feel that, speaking for myself, certainly, it is not that we are concerned that it is the discretion of one man. We are concerned that it is the discretion of one man who will not give reasons. It is awfully difficult to put pressure on somebody who will not give reasons.
    Sir F. Soskice: I accept the force of that criticism. I will try to answer it. This House, as a matter of deliberate policy, in Section 26 of the British
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    Nationality Act, 1948, in terms relieved the holder from time to time of my office from the requirement to give reasons for decisions which were reposed in his discretion. That was a broad matter of policy. The question is whether it is right or wrong. One may take two views about it. One may say that one should always give reasons, or one may take the opposite view and say that one should never give reasons.
    It is the worst of both worlds if it is left to the Home Secretary's discretion sometimes to give reasons and sometimes not. The result of his sometimes giving reasons is that the individual who cannot get a reason, in whose case there may be a very adequate ground for withholding the reason, naturally goes away with the feeling that there is some stigma upon him, some mystery attached to him, which he cannot discover and which seems thereafter to be a blot on his character, and this creates doubt in his mind. That being the situation, the Government in 1948—it was in the time of the Labour Government—deliberately adopted the view that it was better to say that one need never give reasons.
    Mr. Lubbock: in the case of the alien who exercises his right of appeal to the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate, reasons have to be given. It is only when the motive for deportation is imperative for reasons of national security that reasons are not given. Therefore, such a person has the worst of both possible worlds if reasons are given in the cases presented to the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate and not in the cases which are not so presented.
    Sir F. Soskice: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman would argue in this House that if the ground is a security one the reasons should be given in a case of that sort. If he says that, I must say that really it would be quite impossible to administer any security system. One could not do it. If it had to be said in the case of an individual against whom it was suspected, rightly or wrongly, that there were security objections "We suspect you of that", in which case the name of the informant and so on would have to be given, we should have to pack up any security system and say that there was not to be one.
    Mr. Orme: Surely my right hon. and learned Friend is here defending the Security Service, which at times gives only half-reasons, and it should be challenged to prove that a man is guilty and not just suspect that he is guilty. This is what many of us worry about.
    Sir F. Soskice: Frankly, I do not accept that it should prove it. It has to take an executive decision. If the Minister who is responsible for the security department is not adequate to the performance of his duties, this House has its ordinary remedy by making it perfectly clear that it has no confidence in the Minister. That is our constitutional position.
    Mr. Reginald Freeson Mr. Reginald Freeson (Willesden, East) rose—
    Sir F. Soskice: I cannot give way again. I must go on.
    So I start from the position that if one has a security system and it is accepted that in certain circumstances with certain activities a risk may be engendered to the security of the country, it is essential that a certain degree of secrecy should be observed with regard to it.
    Those are the views which I put to the Committee. Hon. Members may or may not agree with them. Recognising that many hon. Members do not agree with them, the Government have decided that the time has come when we ought to set up this Committee. Two points arise. One is whether the alien legislation should depend on annual renewal, as I have said and all my predecessors for years have accepted. There is something to be said for it because it provides annual reconsideration, but, nevertheless, I accent on balance, as all my predecessors have constantly accepted, that it is anomalous that legislation of this degree of importance should rest upon Section 1 of an Act passed in 1919, after the end of the First World War.
    The question then arises whether we are, as a purely mechanical process. simply to write out in the terms of a single Statute Section 1 of the 1919 Act and the various Orders which have subsequently been made under it and which now in combination contain the existing aliens legislation, or whether we should review those Orders and change their form where necessary, bring them up to
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    date and see where the shoe pinches and where there is danger of injustice.
    Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the Committee will, I think, say unhesitatingly that it is not the slightest use just writing it out in a single Act. One has to review it and reconsider it. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who has taken such a prominent part in these discussions, would, I know, say at once that he does not want just the mechanical process of writing out and that he wants reviews. Because we recognise that, in the terms of reference, which I hope hon. Members will regard as suitable—I know that there will be criticisms—we announce that we propose to set up a Committee to do what I believe to be necessary to enable us to put these provisions in permanent form.
    My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton in particular criticised the terms, but first he criticised the nature of the Committee and argued that it should have been a Select Committee, and I know that for long that has been his view. It is a question of balance. We carefully considered my hon. and learned Friend's view, but we thought on balance that it would be better to have an independent body to examine what is a subject involving very careful and minute investigation. We may have been right or wrong about that, but it was a question of a balanced judgment. I still feel that on balance we were right, although I see the force of my hon. and learned Friend's case.
    The question then arises whether the terms of reference are appropriate. I hope that when hon. Members examine them, they will agree that they are. Let me take the example mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne. He said that in the United States an alien who was refused leave to land had the right to appeal to a judicial body to determine whether he should be allowed to land. In other words, what is done in the United States is that there is an executive act which refuses the alien leave to land and then, if the alien disagrees with that act, he has a right of appeal. It is precisely that which the Committee which we are setting up, as I read its terms of reference—and it will be for the Committee to interpret them and not for me

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    to put a gloss on them—will have the right, arid I would have thought the duty, to investigate. The Committee will be able to consider whether there should be a right of appeal and, if so, what right of appeal and other remedies for aliens and Commonwealth citizens who are refused permission to land.
    The alien who lands in the United States and who meets that executive decision then has a right of appeal. The Committee will no doubt direct its mind to whether we should have some system of that sort in this country. I think that my hon. and learned Friend would accept at once that it is not arguable to start the proceedings by judicial inquiry. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne at one time was rather inclined to think that that would be appropriate, but that was not the view of my hon. and learned Friend. After all, 2,700,000 aliens ask leave to land and a certain percentage is refused. We have to decide as a mater of inevitable need by way of executive decision whether in the first place they are to be allowed leave to land. Where there is disagreement with the decision, we then have to investigate whether such aliens should have the right, by way of appeal, to challenge the decision.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I quite accept that. In a great many cases the original executive decision is accepted and the question arises only when it is not accepted. What we are saying is that when the executive act has been challenged, the issue of whether it should remain valid should be a judicial decision reached in a judicial way.
    Sir F. Soskice: I have been pointing out that it is precisely that question which its terms of reference will enable the Committee to investigate. Therefore, I would have thought that the terms of reference were perfectly appropriate to discharge just that very end. It would not be for the chairman and the Committee to decide whether the terms of reference enabled them to ask in the first place whether when an alien lands he should go before a tribunal without an executive act. I do not think that anybody could possibly argue that such a proceeding was remotely practicable. I hope that these terms of reference are exactly apposite and appropriate.
    Mr. Paget: The comparison with America breaks down. In America everybody has a prima facie right to enter. That is the idea of the melting pot. That right is limited by law, the quota law and others. The immigration officer operates a known law and tells the alien that he cannot enter for a certain reason, and the alien can then appeal. Our difficulty is that, on the contrary, nobody has the right to enter this country and the reason for an alien's exclusion, the general rules, do not give anything on which to judge. I am saying that the terms of reference of the committee are all wrong because we must decide what are the rules, as in America, for excluding people and then set up a tribunal to judge. As it is, there will be no rules on which a tribunal can judge.
    Sir F. Soskice: When 2,700,000 aliens are being allowed to land and 1,400 are being refused, it makes very little difference in practice whether there is a prima facie right to land or not. The alien has the very strong hope that he will land. Prima facie right or not, the procedure is that refusal of leave to land is a decision which is never taken in the first place without very careful inquiry into the individual case. The person who is refused leave to land is always allowed to get in touch with friends or relatives by telephone and they are given the opportunity to make representations on his behalf. No alien is sent away by the authority of the immigration officer alone. He has to consult his superior. Where there is a case of difficulty, it goes to London and to Ministers for decision. Whether there is a prima facie right to land or not, with all those safeguards and with the numbers in fact allowed to land, that is a distinction without a difference.
    That is how the inquiry will work at the admission side. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne then referred to the case of a person who had applied for and had not yet got naturalisation and was, therefore, an alien and subject to our arbitrary power to expel him. My hon. Friend did not invite me to deal with the facts and hon. Members will understand that, while I am perfectly prepared to do so, I would be in danger of infringing your Ruling, Sir Herbert, if I set about it, and I will not

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    do so. However, I hope that the Committee will recognise that there are two sides to every story and that this is one of those stories.
    6.30 p.m.
    Take the case instanced by my hon. Friend, that the terms of reference to this Committee were so narrowly drawn that they could not consider that sort of case. His argument was, "Here is a man who, after years, is subject to your arbitrary power to tell him to go". But the terms of reference invite the Committee to consider whether a person who is required to leave, which would include that person, is to have a right of appeal or any other rights with regard to it. Therefore, I ask him to consider this seriously. The terms of reference are so drawn as precisely to cover the sort of case which he instanced as an example of the undesirability of there being an arbitrary power vested in the Home Secretary to require persons who are aliens to leave. Having listened most carefully to his arguments, and having had some part in drafting these terms of reference, I feel that they cover the objections which have been uttered here. In substance, the point made is that considerations of humanity, justice and human dignity require that even although a Minister is subject to criticism in this House there should be a further judicial inquiry in the case of an executive act which is adverse to the individual.
    The Committee can inquire about that, but there are two views on this. There are practical difficulties about it, but it may be that the Committee will think that those difficulties ought to be overcome. Certainly it is within its terms of reference, and I would hope that my hon. Friends would feel, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) has very generously said, that at any rate in this regard the Government have gone far to meet the perfectly legitimate and proper criticisms that have been voiced for years in the course of these debates. We must go into it and see where we stand and then we can consider how we may change the legislation properly. In those circumstances, I hope that the Committee will agree that, having thoroughly discussed this Amendment, we should at least be given an annual renewal, for one year,
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    of the Aliens' Act, 1919, Section 1. We could not get on without some control, even if the existing control is one which ought to be changed as a result of an inquiry by the Committee. I therefore hope that the Committee will not accept this Amendment.
    Mr. Paget: I would like to ask the Home Secretary to deal with one or two more points before we leave this matter. What I am primarily concerned with at this point are the terms of reference of this Committee. My right hon. Friend says that considering the enormous number of people we admit and the few who have been refused admission, it does not really matter whether there is a basic right to come in or no basic right to come in. In that case why are we talking about a tribunal? If one is going to have a tribunal, then it must have some law or rules on which to judge. The American tribunal has a perfectly good set of rules on which to judge the law permitting the exclusion of an alien. The tribunal decides whether the Executive is inside the rules or outside of them in excluding that alien. That is a justiciable question. If, on the other hand, the alien has no right to enter anyway and there are no rules, it seems that there is no justiciable question for that tribunal to consider. I would ask that the terms of reference of the inquiry should be extended to see whether it could recommend, as in America, laying down the general rules under which aliens may be excluded.
    If these general rules are then laid down, the appeals Committee set up after the Executive act could decide whether the Executive acted within the rules. If there are no rules there is nothing for the Committee to decide. To deal with the question raised when the alien is here, my right hon. and learned Friend says that what is conceived is the placing of the law which we renew annually on to a permanent basis. That law covers the control of aliens while they are here. Would it be within the terms of reference of this Committee to consider and advise on what rules are necessary, if any, to control movement of aliens while they are in this country, and will it be within the terms of the Charter of Human Rights to lay down and reconsider the 1948 Act with regard to naturalisation? As my right hon. and learned Friend

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    says at that time, that Act did not require him to give reasons. It is none the less part of what happens to aliens when they are here, and I should have thought this was a perfect opportunity to consider that. After all, since the 1948 Act we have adhered to the Charter of Human Rights. There is something to be said for making oar law comply with it.
    There is another question with regard to expulsion orders. If an alien has no right to be here there are no grounds for removing him. Unless one has some grounds, it is a little difficult to see what is the justiciable question to decide whether the Executive is or is not acting within its rights. Will my right hon. and learned Friend extend the terms of reference to consider not merely whether one sets up a tribunal but whether that tribunal has any rules upon which it can adjudicate?
    Sir F. Soskice: With the leave of the Committee, I will speak again. If my hon. and learned Friend is saying that aliens should have a right to land here, I can answer him by pointing out that that can only be a matter of broad Government policy. I do not see how on earth one can expect an independent tribunal investigating questions of appeal to investigate broad issues of policy of that sort. It is certainly for the chairman to interpret his own terms of reference, but I would think it would be unlikely for him to take it upon himself, within the terms of reference, to decide broad issues of Government policy. This must be for the Government and not for a committee. Whether aliens, and in what circumstances, are to have a right to land in this country cannot be a matter for the Committee. It must be a matter of Government responsibility. Therefore, I would answer my hon. and learned Friend by saying that my view is that the answer to his question should be "Certainly not".
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The purpose of my Amendment was to enable us to have a debate on a subject which is of interest and importance. I thought it was right that we should have this debate. I must say that I lean a little nearer to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's view than some of his hon. Friends. [HON. MEMBERS: "How do you know?"] My own view is that a very substantial
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    measure of executive power will, in any event, have to be retained by the Home Office in this matter. But these matters are referred to the Committee, and since we have had a full discussion on it and I know that some hon. Members on both sides of the Committee wish to move on to a wider discussion of the question of Commonwealth immigration, I would beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.
    The Temporary Chairman: Before I call the next Amendment dealing with the Commonwealth Immigration Act, it should be noted that only those provisions which concern control of immigration are continued and, therefore, are debatable. The provisions relating to deportation are permanent. They do not expire, and, therefore, cannot be discussed under the next Amendment.
    Mr. Freeson: On a point of order. It may be within your knowledge, Sir Herbert, that within recent weeks both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House have indicated to the House that it was intended that there should be a general debate on the question of Commonwealth immigration, including the proposals covered by the recent White Paper. May we have your Ruling whether we shall be allowed to have such a broad debate?
    The Temporary Chairman: The debate is on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill and on the Amendments which appear on the Paper. If assurances have been given by the Prime Minister or by the Leader of the House that there would be a full debate on various matters, that is not a matter for the Chair. It is the duty of the Chair to carry out the rules in the best manner possible.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I accept, as you say, Sir Herbert, that it is for the Chair and not for the Leader of the House to decide what is in order for the Committee to discuss. In deciding, however, whether an Act should be continued for another year, are we not entitled to consider what the Government have said will be their policy in administering the powers under that Act? If they administer them in one way, we might be prepared to let them have it; if they administer them in another way,

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    we may have doubts whether they should have it. I submit, therefore, Sir Herbert, that to discuss this question would be entirely within the ambit of discussion on the Amendment.
    The Temporary Chairman: I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that matter. There is no doubt that certain of the matters which are referred to in the White Paper, Cmnd. 2739, would be entirely within the area of discussion. I hope that the hon. Member will equally accept that other matters which appear in that White Paper would be outside the scope of discussion of this matter.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Further to the point of order. Is it not the case, Sir Herbert, that the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, was itself an Act for making temporary provisions? Its Preamble, which governs the whole of the Act, refers to its being temporary. It is that Act, I understand, which is to be continued by the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. Therefore, I should have understood any matter covered by the original Act to be in order in this debate. On a strict question of order, irrespective of any undertaking which may have been given by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, I suggest that anything in that Act, which itself is a temporary Measure, should be debatable in the debate today.
    The Temporary Chairman: I think that I can help the hon. Member. If he refers to the Schedule of the Bill, he will see that what is continued in force is Part I and Scchedule 1 of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962. Those are the parts of the Act which are being continued. Perhaps we can see how we get on.
    Mr. David Weitzman: Further to the point of order. I understand, Sir Herbert, that Schedule 1 of the 1962 Act is one of the matters which can be discussed. Paragraph 4 of that Schedule is headed
    "Detention of immigrants pending further examination and removal."
    I respectfully suggest, therefore, that deportation is proper to be discussed under that Schedule.
    The Temporary Chairman: The hon. and learned Member is, I think, in error.
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    It would be a good idea to let the debate proceed. If hon. Members endeavour to assist the Chair in giving the proper freedom of debate, I shall be obliged.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I beg to move, in page 2, to leave out lines 15 and 16.
    After that interchange, I feel that a certain responsibility rests upon me to start the debate wide enough to give at least proper recognition of the undertaking that was given to us by the Leader of the House, but, at the same time, perhaps sufficiently narrow not to incur the reproval of the Chair.
    6.45 p.m.
    I assure the Committee that my purpose in setting down the Amendment was to secure a wide debate, because I felt that it was desired not by one side of the Committee but by both sides that we should consider fully a difficult and important matter covering entry, the effect of that entry and the controls necessary to secure that entry, and to discuss it, as we have managed to discuss it before, with restraint and moderation but with the fullness which is necessary to a subject of this character.
    The background to any discussion of Part I of the 1962 Act must be the policy which the Government adopt in administering Part I. Therefore, the first point to which one must necessarily turn is the White Paper in which the Government set out their policy as recently as August of this year. I must be frank and say that hon. Friends of right hon. and hon. Members on the Front Bench opposite regarded that policy with scorn. On 26th October they put down a Motion in the most scathing terms in which they criticised both the ceiling which the Government intended to impose under the Act and the reforms in control which they forecast as their intention to introduce, and they condemned both.
    I must equally say in fairness to the Home Secretary that, although the policy which he has forecast for the administration of the Act falls far short of what we on this side want on the subject both of control and of dealing with the effects of that control on what is sometimes called integration, but which is better called the fitting in of those who are allowed to enter under the Act, we on this side

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    would, perhaps, be less scathing in our attack than would the Home Secretary's own supporters.
    The reason why we would at least give some support to the right hon. and learned Gentleman is that over the months and years he has moved a little closer to the position of the Conservative Party.
    Mr. Freeson: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have some agreement on the benches opposite. The Home Secretary has moved closer to the position of the Conservative Party, that is to say, the Government Front Bench have today accepted that at least a reduction in the number of immigrants allowed in under Part I of the Act must be secured. Irrespective of whether they have done it in sufficiently precise terms, the Government have set that out. They have also made it plain that under the Act permission will no longer be granted, in effect, to the unskilled worker.
    Virtually, the entry with which we are concerned under these provisions is the entry of either men and women who have a job to which to go, and who have been carefully selected for this purpose or of skilled workers. Of course, this alters very substantially our whole approach. The question now is not why should we keep them out but by what conceivable justification do we allow them in? Think of the demands for, say, doctors in some of the areas from which doctors are drawn. Those of us on both sides of the Committee who move in High Commission circles know the criticism which we are under for taking more people with such skills. When I read the other day that the Minister of Overseas Development was paying special allowances to persuade British doctors to go to these overseas territories while doctors in such territories were being asked to come here, I asked myself how much sense there was in all this.
    We are not taking merely unskilled men, the holders of C vouchers. We are taking men who would be of the greatest value in the countries from which they are drawn. I therefore say that under this Act, and in particular Part I, the question which we have to ask ourselves is not what is the justification for keeping them out but what is the justification for continuing to bring them in.
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    The statement of Government policy lends no support whatever to the view that it would be "mad to keep immigrants out". I do not know whether the First Secretary of State ever used that phrase or not. I should warn my hon. Friends that he claims that when he used it he was talking at a local government conference about immigrants from Hampshire into Sussex. Apparently, he was terribly misrepresented by members of the national Press, all of whom thought that he meant immigrants coming into this country from abroad. This shows into what dangerous postures one can be led by using ill-advised phrases on a public platform.
    All that is swept aside. The case is no longer argued by the Government that Part I of the Act should be used for some economic purpose in this country. The numbers of immigrant workers now referred to are certainly not large enough to make an impotant impact on the main economic future of the United Kingdom. Therefore, all those arguments are abandoned.
    The importance of the White Paper was stressed by the Prime Minister. There is no doubt that a great deal of thought and consideration went into it before it was laid before the House. On 4th November, the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) asked the Prime Minister
    "whether, pending further research and consultation on the problem of immigration into the United Kingdom, he will now withdraw the latest White Paper on the subject."
    The Prime Minister answered:
    "No, Sir",
    and went on to say in answer to a supplementary question:
    "I cannot believe that there is any subject in recent times which has had more research, more discussion and more careful consideration than this one. The White Paper was put forward as a result of that. I should think that the House is most likely to be debating the matter in the near future."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th November, 1965; Vol. 718, c. 1231.]
    We are debating it—with some difficulty, let me say, but we are debating it.
    I suppose that a very unsophisticated Member, when he heard the Prime Minister say "No, Sir", might have believed that he meant "No, Sir". But we who know the Prime Minister realise

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    that he is much deeper than that. Therefore, we were not surprised when, five days later, we found him in the Queen's Speech effectively withdrawing all the legislative proposals in the White Paper. It was no surprise to us. It was just another typical bit of double-talk. I must say frankly to the Home Secretary—I do not blame him for this—that it is not treating the Committee with proper respect not to be franker with it in matters of this character.
    Let me start with the controls because they are central to this part of the Act. The policy by which they are to be carried out is in paragraphs 23, 24 and 25 of the White Paper. In effect, what is said there is this. First, for these controls under this part of the Act to work properly, it is necessary to be able to impose conditions upon people who enter with these vouchers. Secondly, it is necessary to have a general power to refer these cases to the police. Thirdly, if this part of the Act is to work properly, power to repatriate should be taken by the Home Secretary. I will not argue the general question of repatriation except in the narrow sense in which it has been argued by the Home Secretary and by the Government as necessary to the implementation of this part of the Act.
    Those paragraphs are extremely important and I should like to read the last of them, paragraph 25:
    "At present a Commonwealth citizen may be deported"—
    I am not arguing the general question of deportation—
    "only if a court has made a recommendation to that effect on convicting him of a crime punishable by imprisonment. The Government regard it as important that there should be a speedy and effective power to repatriate immigrants who in one way or another, e.g. by obtaining entry"—
    that is, entry under this part of the Act—
    "by misrepresentation or by flouting the conditions on which they were admitted, evade the stricter control over immigration that is now envisaged. Without it"—
    and these are the important words—
    "the effectiveness of the control would be greatly weakened."
    Those are very important words indeed.
    The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Roderic Bowen): Order. Apparently, the right hon. Gentleman is now going on to dis-
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    cuss matters which inevitably will have to be the subject of legislation. He is entitled to make passing reference to them, but he is not entitled to develop the matter at any length.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I appreciate that, Mr. Bowen. That is why I am making passing reference to the matter. The point is simply this. The Government have said that their administration of Part I of the Act, screwed down to a much narrower intake of immigrants, would be gravely weakened unless they did something on the lines of paragraph 25. This is, and surely must be, relevant to a discussion of the Act which we are seeking to renew. That is the only point—the narrow but vitally important point—that I wish to make. The question that I want to ask is: does the Home Secretary today accept that, without it, the effectiveness of the control would be greatly weakened? I want an answer to that question.
    That brings me to the figures of entry—entry, let me hasten to add, permitted under the Act—which are set out in the first part of the White Paper. The figures are that in 1963 there were 57,000 coloured immigrants. I am drawing the distinction between the coloured and the white because it is drawn in the Government's White Paper, and I will come to the whites in a moment.
    Dr. David Kerr: What colour were they?
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The Home Secretary draws a distinction between immigrants broadly from Canada, New Zealand and Australia on the one hand, and the broadly coloured immigrants on the other hand. The hon. Gentleman probably has a copy of the White Paper. I am not discussing the subject in an aggressive way, but factually so that we can debate it with restraint and moderation.
    Dr. Kerr: I do not make any excuse for being aggressive about it. My recollection is that the White Paper talks about immigrants from the old Commonwealth and the new Commonwealth. There is no mention of the word "coloured".
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If the hon. Gentleman prefers not to use the word, he need

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    not use it. If he prefers, I will use the expression "from the new Commonwealth". I do not mind a bit. But in discussing the matter, if we are going to be honest with ourselves, the question of colour does come in and it is better not to put it under the carpet. We should be quite open about it. There is no other reason why the Home Secretary has drawn the distinction between the two.
    If I may give them, the figures are these. For the new Commonwealth, coloured or whatever one prefers to call them, in 1963 the entry was 57,000, in 1964 the figure was 75,000, and in the first six months of 1965, 33,000 have come in. Those are A voucher holders and their dependants. That class of immigration is running at a pace which will increase by about ½ million over the next 10 years in addition to the 800,000 that exist at the moment, and it is additional to any natural increase resulting from births which will take place during that period in the ordinary course of events.
    Those are formidable figures on any account, and there are two questions which the Committee ought to ask itself. The first is, is there evasion which is swelling the figures? The other question which has to be faced quite frankly, because it is debated outside and it is much better that it should be debated in the Committee, is, can we accept immigration on that scale over that period?
    Mr. Freeson: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, could he tell us whether he is talking about immigration as a whole and whether the country can accept it, or is he talking about one class of immigrant from one part of the world?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have just been talking about immigration from the new Commonwealth, as the hon. Member for Wandsworth, Central (Dr. David Kerr) prefers to call it. I am going to deal with both classes, but I want to deal with them separately, because I beg the Committee to face the facts of evasion, first of all, by coloured immigrants and, secondly, by white immigrants. But let me develop my argument, because the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) can develop his own in a few minutes.
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    Has there been a measure of evasion which has swelled those numbers? The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary came to the House on 4th February and made a rather grave statement about evasion. What he did was to take the net addition of coloured immigrants over two years. He then took the number who had been permitted to come in either by voucher or as dependants of voucher holders, and he subtracted the one from the other. I may say that the phrase "coloured immigration" has been used by him, and it has been used in the other place. It is a shorter way of putting it. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that in the case of coloured immigration, the discrepancy was 10,000. The fact is that if one examines the figures, the discrepancy in 1963 was only 900, in 1964 it was 9,000 and in the first six months of this year the discrepancy is already 7,000. The discrepancy in the case of whites was 5,000 in 1963, 10,000 in 1964 and is about 14,000 at the present time.
    The Committee ought to ponder those figures both in the case of the new and of the old Commonwealth. If the discrepancy or error is expressed as a percentage of the number allowed in, in the case of the coloureds the error or evasion was 2 per cent. in 1963, 18 per cent. in 1964 and is running at 25 per cent. today. In the case of the whites the error was 150 per cent. in 1963, 300 per cent in 1964 and is running at 1,000 per cent. in the present year.
    I put forward those figures both for the coloured and the white because there are lessons to be drawn from them. We may say that the Act is not discriminatory. I do not want to argue the Irish point, but there is some evidence that under the weak, unreformed controls which the Home Office has at the moment the law is being administered in some sense upon a discriminatory basis.
    The point that I would like to put to the Committee is, can we really pass this Measure for further reform without considering very carefully the figures that I have put forward, which tend to show that the Act is beginning to break down? What I would say to the Home Secretary is that the figures that I have given powerfully reinforce what he has said in his White Paper. Without his new proposals, the effectiveness of the control will

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    be greatly weakened. The more one screws down the legitimate entries, the more the evasions will grow and the more such discrepancies will arise.
    In those circumstances, I do not think that the Home Secretary can do other than honour the pledges that he has given in the White Paper. I believe that it is vitally urgent. It is playing with public opinion on an explosive matter to leave the White Paper while he does some long-term study of what would be the ideal arrangement for dealing with either aliens or Commonwealth immigrants and whether there should be rights of appeal and the rest of it.
    As the Prime Minister said, the Government statement was prepared after months of study. Few subjects, he said, had received more careful consideration than this, and those words were not put in lightly. I say that the combination of those figures that I have given and the Government's own statement compel the Government to act. To evade that action would be a terrible thing to do. What excuse would they have—the pressure from their back benches? What possible apology could they offer? This Act is breaking down, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman well knows it, and it is his responsibility as Home Secretary to see that the Act is properly implemented and that the right steps are taken to do so.
    I turn from that to the longer-term, and there is a longer-term, problem. This is not simply the problem of procedures with which the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Prime Minister dealt in the Gracious Speech and some aspects of which we debated on the last Amendment, such as the right of appeal, the various responsibilities of the Executive and the judiciary, and so on. The longer-term problem is policy as well as precedure, and the question that we have to ask ourselves is whether, bearing in mind not only the interests of the native inhabitants of this country, but the interests of the immigrants themselves, it is possible to go on with immigration at this pace. On the figures as they are emerging from the White Paper, it is becoming clearer and clearer to more and more people that this is not going to prove possible.
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    There is, of course, one great problem about Commonwealth immigrants which distinguishes them from alien immigrants. When a Commonwealth immigrant comes in on an A voucher granted by the Minister of Labour he takes a job for a month, but he is here for life. He is here with his wife and his children, and perhaps, if the Home Secretary is humane, with his granny as well. This is the problem, because under the system that we have at the moment for every Commonwealth imigrant whom we bring in, we also bring in four or five dependants. The reverse is the case with aliens. I am not talking about the short-term visitor but about the man who has a labour voucher for 12 months or more. For every four such aliens there is one dependant. This is borne out by the foreign entry statistics. For every four aliens there is one dependant, whereas for every Commonwealth immigrant there are four dependants, and they are here for all time.
    Is that really in the interests either of this country or of the immigrants? I have studied this matter and discussed it with my hon. Friends and those with experience of it. People have told me that what they really want is conditional entry similar to that operated by the countries from which the immigrants come. It is probably a very good thing for a man to come here from a Commonwealth country for a couple of years, do a job and get experience here, get associated with our trade union movement, and so on, and then go back and do a good job of work in his own country. This may be an admirable thing to do, and at any rate it would take a great deal of the heat out of this situation. It would slow down enormously the number of new dependants who have a right to come in.
    Of course, there has to be a study of the longer-term problem, but it is not just a technical study. It is a study about policy, about what this country really ought to do about Commonwealth immigrants, and it is not an easy problem. I am not pretending that it is. If we move the Commonwealth immigrant over and assimilate him with aliens in the policy study it may require big decisions about the registration of Commonwealth immigrants, and so on, and all sorts of difficulties and problems will arise, but I

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    believe that we would be failing in our duty in this Committee if we did not start to apply our minds to this matter. If we do not, we are just trying to stem a little a problem which, on the figures I have given, on the Government's own admission and, if I am allowed to refer to it in passing, on experience in the country, is manifestly arising under the administration of this Act at the present time.
    Dr. Miller: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that if a Commonwealth immigrant has a good job and has his family with him he is much more likely to become integrated into the country than is an alien who is here for a short space of time and who cannot become integrated because he is going to leave shortly?
    7.15 p.m.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: To some extent this is a matter of opinion. If a man is going to stay for a long time, it is better that he should have his family with him. This is true of the alien and the Commonwealth immigrant, but, because of the different systems under which aliens and Commonwealth immigrants operate, fewer aliens settle here, and then only those who really feel themselves able to fit into this country and who have settled in and established themselves in jobs. The Minister of Labour knows this as well as I do. The alien who settles here is the man who has got on with his pals, fitted into a trade union, and so on. Having been here for four years, the Home Secretary gives him a permit. He gets his wife am children over and they become admirable citizens, but this is the reverse of the position with Commonwealth immigrants who, whether they are going to fit in or not, come over and have a right to stay here permanently with their wives, children and the rest of it.
    I propose to deal now with the question of dependants. Under paragraph 19 of the White Paper the Home Secretary describes a new procedure—not involving legislation—under which immigrants let the Home Secretary or the Home Office know the number of dependants who are coming in. Are there any figures of the number of dependants waiting to come in? I think that in the public interest more consideration of this problem is necessary. I agree with the hon. Member
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    for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Dr. Miller) that, in general, when a man is over here it is better for him to have his wife with him. I am not so happy about three wives coming with him. [Interruption.]
    Mr. George Thomas: I know the right hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that we have no examples of two wives coming in with an immigrant.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am delighted to hear that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] There is nothing to withdraw. I am saying that I am not very happy with three wives, and no hon. Member has ever been asked to withdraw that remark. I am agreeing with the hon. Member for Kelvingrove that in general it is better that a Commonwealth immigrant, or indeed an alien who is staying here for any length of time, should have his wife and children with him. I think that is right, but I think we ought to be told the number who, so to speak, are in the background waiting to come in. If it were decided to move over from the system of the right to permanent residence which today exists for the Commonwealth immigrant to the system which operates for the alien immigrant, experience shows, and the Government's statistics show, that the problem of the dependants, would be very markedly reduced, if not solved. That is the longterm question of policy.
    There is a long-term question of procedure. We have debated it in another context already this afternoon, but it applies in this context too. It applies not just to deportation, but to entry under Part I of the Act. The problem is: when someone arrives, should it be an executive decision, or a judicial decision whether to let him stay? These are not very simple questions, and obviously when one is considering them one considers aliens as well as Commonwealth immigrants. One considers wide questions like the whole of our law on extradition and fugitive offenders. It is an immensely complex field and it will take months and months of struggle.
    Let us not pretend that matters of this kind can be solved by any independent committee in a few weeks, or even months. Even when it has been discussed by the committee there still follows, rightly, very anxious consideration in Whitehall and between Ministers, because

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    some of these questions go to the root of our constitutional arrangements. That consideration should take place, but it would be a disgrace for this Government to say that we have to wait for all that before dealing with things which they themselves admit are already greatly weakening their control. We cannot let the best be the enemy of the good to that extent.
    I want to say a few words about the more positive side of Part I. The question is not only how many people we let in under the Commonwealth Immigrants Act but how we deal with them when they are let in. Unless we face that problem and debate it it is very difficult to debate the Act, because if some of the social structures are already breaking down the case for operating Part I of the Act more stringently than in the past is very strong. Equally, on the other hand, if we find that we can deal with this question reasonably easily, and where suggestions can be put forward from either side of the Committee for dealing with this matter, there is a case for being a little easy.
    Some of my hon. Friends—and I am sure that this applies to some hon. Members opposite—will want to go into these matters more than I do. I merely want to make two passing references. The first concerns the question of education. Quite apart from the administration of Part I we have the gravest doubt whether the Government have yet organised themselves to deal with the practical results of the operation.
    Let us consider the question of education. The other day I read a series of articles which appeared in the Daily Express on the subject. They were good articles. One said:
    "There is a characteristically British reluctance to admit that in the past any problem existed. Indeed it seems to have been considered bad form to 'count heads'. 'Thought is now being given', said the Ministry official cautiously. 'to a nation-wide inquiry through local education authorities to assess the scope and size of the problem'."
    When we think of the appalling problems that exist in parts of the country at the moment on the education front we might have hoped that this inquiry had started a little earlier. The results are now beginning to come through. The Report goes on to say that
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    "even if the inquiry is undertaken results cannot be expected soon. 'We hope to have a picture by the spring,' said the official"—
    that is, a Ministry official—
    "I asked if they knew in what areas the immigrant children were living. We know roughly where they are', he said, 'But it seems to vary a good deal. Of course it's hard to keep pace, as there are no valid statistics. We have known for a long time that this is an increasing problem in a lot of areas and a lot of, schools'. But the Central Government has been hesitant to prod, let alone probe, local education authorities. Short of legislation by Parliament the Minister claims it can do little."
    I can let the Minister have a copy of the article. I am sure that his Department has a copy.
    I hope that inquiries have been made, not only in his Department but in the Ministry of Education. Is legislation necessary? If it is—I am quoting what has been said by officials, but I am prepared to be contradicted—the House should find time for it. It is one of the most pressing of our social problems.
    Let us now turn to the problem of housing. In the People the other day I read an account of what has happened in Lambeth. Lambeth has a very fine record in this matter and has been trying to tackle a very difficult problem. There may be instances of discrimination, but for every instance of discrimination there are thousands of instances of people dealing fairly between man and man, whatever their colour. There is much to praise in the atmosphere in Lambeth in this connection, but
    "in one of the frankest documents ever issued by a local authority on the immigration problem, Lambeth Council appeals for 'massive assistance' from the Government. Until this comes … the problem remains insoluble."
    Anyone who knows that area knows what it is like.
    In the White Paper the Government say that they will give help in the usual way by providing that the more houses that are built the more help is given. Is that really good enough? Is not special assistance required for those areas which are hardest hit by the problem? Before they are finished the Government will have to deal with this problem not simply on the control side but on the constructive side—in questions of education and housing. Something more is required than merely to say, "We will help by providing more social workers, and the

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    rest." Heaven knows that is necessary, but the Government may have to treat some of these areas in a really special way.
    I want to summarise what I have said. First, I cannot think that the Government can be justified in failing to honour the pledges that they have made in their White Paper. It was published only last August, and it was produced only after a most careful study. They made it plain that unless they took urgent action in a number of important fields the situation might break down. These were serious words, and the Committee should take them seriously.
    I have exercised a good deal of restraint on the subject of immigration, as anyone can see who studies my speeches on the subject. I am not one who wants to drag the matter unnecessarily into party politics, but if pledges made only a few months ago are to be dishonoured by the Government it is a political issue of the first order, and must be dealt with as such.
    The first thing that we should ask the Government is whether they are going to carry out the policy that they themselves have put forward. Secondly, in the longer term, they should direct their attention not only to problems of procedure but to problems of policy. We all learn as we go on in these matters; I am not going back over the years, or through their reversal of form, because I dare say that in this matter no party is beyond reproach. They should ask themselves whether they should not deal with the facts as they are known now, and as the figures are emerging. The right hon. Gentleman should ask himself whether the Government are not going to cause an explosion which will do damage to the immigrants themselves as well as to this country.
    Is it not worth while beginning to think afresh on this subject, and to ask ourselves whether we could not deal more fairly with immigrants in this matter if we treated them in the same way that we treat aliens. This is not a matter which should he dismissed. If we are going to do a long-term study of procedures the policy to be pursued is more important than the question of the machinery to be used to implement that policy. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, either within Whitehall or in a Cabinet Committee, to
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    have the suggestions that I have put forward carefully studied.
    Thirdly, some people have criticised the Government for weakness in control and for "running out" on the White Paper but many of my hon. Friends and I are equally concerned about a certain flabbiness on the positive side—in education and housing. I do not pretend that the task is easy. The problems which some of these local authorities are facing are enormous. We talk about not having more than 30 per cent. coloured children in a school. Think of the problems of transportation which are involved in dealing with and administering a policy of that kind. Some of these authorities say that they cannot do it unless they get more Government assistance. So, on the positive side as well as in other respects, we ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to adopt for the Government a rather more robust approach to one of the most difficult problems which confronts this country.
    7.30 p.m.
    Sir F. Soskice: Some things we agree upon. This is a most difficult subject; it is a painful subject and one on which we all ought to exercise restraint. Generally, the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) does exercise restraint, but I thought that he was a little below his usual form today in throwing out a rather jeering, pejorative reference to "three wives". I hope that in this very important debate on immigration—if he wishes, he may use the phrase "coloured immigration"—we will be able to continue as we have in the past and treat this as a great problem which concerns our community, not appropriate for party political controversy.
    It is upon that basis that I propose to try to deal with the case he made this afternoon. I and my hon. friends have considered how best we could assist the Committee in approaching this subject. The conclusion to which we came, and subject to my colleagues being fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Chair, is as follows. The right hon. Member for Monmouth has challenged me particularly over the subject of controls, which are the particular responsibility of my Department.
    However, he rightly touched also on the subjects of education and housing.

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    It is obvious that, in a broad human problem like this, which now affects a million of our fellow citizens, the responsibility of a number of Departments is involved. We thought that it would be for the convenience of the Committee that all problems such as education, health and housing, should be dealt with at a later stage in the debate—which I apprehend may continue for some time—by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary, and I will deal with control.
    A crucial feature of the debate may be the question of the number of vouchers to be issued. The subject of the absorption of labour into this community is obviously one which features very prominently in any consideration we can give to the problem. It was hoped that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour—again if he catches the eye of the Chair—would address himself to that topic at a later stage in the debate. Therefore, we hope that, for the assistance of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House, we can give the Government's answer in the course of a broad survey of the problems which now present themselves.
    I would first give some account of the figures for which the right hon. Member asked. He asked first about paragraph 19 of the White Paper and wanted to know whether the forms had got out. The answer is that the forms have gone out. The White Paper promised that they would go out in September: in fact, they were sent out last month. There has been, so far, a response in terms of hundreds; about 500 dependants are covered by the particulars given in response to those forms. He went on to rehearse some of the figures which form a major subject of consideration when we approach this matter.
    He asked about the position with regard to 1965, after having reminded the Committee of the earlier figures. I will seek to comment on the break-up of those figures, relevant—I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree—to control in particular. As he pointed out, from the "new" Commonwealth countries—if I may use the phrase—during the whole of 1964, there was a net inward balance of about 62,000. He mentioned the figure of about 9,000, which is sometimes referred to as the "crude evasion figure".
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    He then gave the figures for the first six months of 1965 on a comparable basis and I can bring this a little more up to date. In the first nine months of 1965—that is to say, up to the end of September—the net inward balance was about 50,000. The number admitted for settlement was about 41,000 and the balance was about 9,000.
    I think it right to give that figure because, when the right hon. Gentleman was giving the figure, he referred to what he called a discrepancy figure of 7,000 which now, in another three months, had gone up by 2,000. In the last period of the year, as happened in 1964, there may well be a decline in that discrepancy figure. Hon. Members may recollect that in the last three months of the year there is sometimes a net outflow which reduces the total discrepancy figure. It is now 9,379.
    I should like to call the attention of the Committee to one figure. Those admitted for settlement in the first nine months of 1965, as I said, totalled some 41,000. The reason I particularly refer to that figure is that, as in 1964, of the numbers accepted for settlement in that year, there was a very large proportion of dependants. The Committee has on previous occasions considered the situation in which there is overseas a very large number of wives and dependent children under the age of 16. Estimates have been given of a figure of 500,000. There is no means of telling whether that is right or wrong, and one can refer to it only as a problematical figure.
    However, it is perfectly clear that there is still overseas a very large number of dependent wives and children. In 1964, of the 52,000-odd "new" Commonwealth citizens who were admitted for settlement, about 37,000 were dependants. Obviously, that means that there are now coming to this country—perhaps in increasing numbers—dependants who have all along been entitled under the terms of the 1962 Act to come, who have remained in the countries of origin until their menfolk had arrived here, secured steady incomes and then called for them to join them in this country.
    There is that large pool of wives and dependants in overseas countries who may, over the years, be expected to come to this country and who, under the 1962 Act, have an absolute, unfettered right

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    to come here. Thus, out of 52,000 for settlement in 1964, some 37,000 were wives and dependants. In the first nine months of 1965, we see the same pattern. Out of 41,000 settled here, no fewer than 30,000 were dependants from overseas. That gives a very different picture from that which might at first be thought to be the right one when one looks at the gross figures which have been relayed. Of the 41,000 who have settled in nine months in this country, there is—if I may use this phrase in terms of human beings; I hope that it does not seem too hard and heartless—a drawing upon the wives and children waiting overseas to the extent of about 30,000.
    In due course—unless we change the terms of the Act, which nobody has hitherto proposed, by taking away the unfettered rights of those people to come here—over the years the wives and children who are now overseas will wish to follow their menfolk to this country and join them in family units, the menfolk having established themselves here and having put themselves in a position to earn stable incomes. Therefore, the intake in 1965 is a reasonably modest one. On top of the difference between the wives and children and the intake of those for settlement, there are about 11,000, and what the right hon. Gentleman called the discrepancy figure of about 9,000.
    Mr. Buck: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that it is vitally important in assessing the whole of this problem to do everything we can to find out the numbers of people who might in future years be likely to come here as dependants? In this context, would he think it unreasonable to suggest that over, say, the next six months or a year those who are here should be required to register their dependants so that we may have some idea of the numbers involved?
    Sir F. Soskice: That is similar to the scheme outlined in paragraph 19 of the White Paper, although that paragraph does not go as far as the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. However, it would be a major undertaking to ask the Commonwealth citizens who are now here—coloured citizens, new and old Commonwealth citizens—to undertake a large census of that sort, and whether or not it
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    would serve a useful purpose is, I should have thought, open to considerable doubt.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain this point for greater clarity? Following that intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Buck), I do not quite understand why, under paragraph 19, the Home Secretary does not know the numbers because he says in paragraph 19, "You have every right to be here but we do not know how many dependants you have overseas". Could one not also say, "It is rather unfair to the immigration officer not to know how many dependants are involved, so that all should use the form"? In any event, the right hon. and learned Gentleman must know how many certificates have been applied for.
    Sir F. Soskice: Yes indeed, but I did not want to overburden the Committee with a great many figures. Since the form came into use in October, 260 completed forms have been received at the Home Office. Those are from people who are living in this country, and paragraph 19 applies to persons already settled here and who wish their dependants to join them. Those 260 completed forms contain a list of 569 dependants—so, as far as it goes, it will be seen that it would be a very long process to get a completely reliable estimate of the total number of wives and children who are still overseas. In any case, there must be a considerable number. The relevant and important thing to point out is that of those settled in this country this year there has been a drawing upon, as it were, of wives and children overseas to the extent of about 30,000, which presents a rather different picture.
    I return to the speech of the right hon. Member for Monmouth, who said that he thought that our policy did not go nearly far enough; that is, the policy in the White Paper, taken in conjunction with the measures which I announced in February of this year—the policy which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out that we stand by. I retort by asking the right hon. Gentleman a question. I have spoken of the dependants; the wives and children overseas. Under the 1962 Act they have

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    an absolute right to come here and cannot be stopped. The Home Secretary, and no other Minister, has any power to refuse them entry so long as they establish who they are.
    Having said that, I now ask the right hon. Gentleman, in all friendliness and without wishing to try to make this a party issue, whether his party would change Section 2 in that respect. It is an important question and I ask him to answer it.
    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I hope to give the right hon. and learned Gentleman a fair answer. This is why my hon. Friend has been pressing him on this matter. It is indeed very difficult to deal with this on a basis of a completely unknown figure. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that he has had applications for 200 certificates, amounting to 500 dependants coming in. I believe that the first thing he should do—and this in fairness to everyone concerned—is to insist that any immigrant who is here and who wants his family to come over should provide the numbers concerned, the members of that family. I suggest that that is not an unreasonable thing to ask. It is, in effect, very close to paragraph 19. We could then discuss this matter together. Let us discuss it in as uncontroversial a way as possible against a background of known facts.
    Sir F. Soskice: As the right hon. Gentleman says, paragraph 19 does not go quite as far as that. It provides that the immigrants here who wish to be rejoined by their wives and children may apply for a form and fill in that form with the details of their dependants. That would greatly facilitate their entry. I am not sure that I quite follow just what the right hon. Gentleman is proposing. Is he suggesting that we should now go round to every father of a family in this country who is an old or new Commonwealth citizen and say, "You must fill in a form saying how many dependants you have overseas"? If we did that and they all complied I dare say that we would get an accurate estimate of the number of wives and children overseas. However, it would be a major undertaking which would need a host of people to carry out in order to try to compel all of them to fill in those forms. It would be a large, new scale, new
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    fashioned census which would be very difficult to undertake.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not going to raise too high the question of administrative inconvenience. We are here dealing with one of the largest social problems confronting this country now. I am not asking him to put a ban on all the dependants coming in. I have made some suggestions about how I think the future numbers might be limited. I am as conscious as he is about the problems of husbands living apart from wives and so on. This is a desperately difficult problem, and surely the first thing which the right hon. and learned Gentleman should do with a really difficult problem of this sort is to try to get a measure of the problem, to see the size of it. Merely to talk about the number of clerks who would be needed to get these forms filled in is not an adequate answer.
    Sir F. Soskice: I am always perfectly willing to consider anything. As I say, it would be a most elaborate process. We have the best estimates we can get on the best information available to us; and, on any view, there is a very large number of wives and children overseas.
    I must return to the question I put to the right hon. Gentleman. He is critical of the Government's policy. I ask him whether his party, of which he is a distinguished member, would seek to amend Section 2 of the 1962 Act. Would it seek to put up some barrier against wives who wish to join their husbands here and against children under 16 who wish to join their parents? If he says "No"—and I would greatly hope that that would be his answer because it would be very inhumane if he did not say "No"—then he and his party are committed to accepting, as the party in power at the moment is committed to accepting, the fact that wives and children have a right under the terms of the 1962 Act to join their husbands and fathers in this country. Therefore, when the right hon. Gentleman says, "The Government's policy does not go far enough" I ask him where we fall down over it and whether he accepts that what I have said is right. I hope that he will reply, "We accept that you are right".
    I come to the question of vouchers. They have been reduced in number under

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    the terms of the White Paper to 8,500 a year, including 1,000 for Malta. Would the right hon. Gentleman reduce it still further or say that no vouchers should be issued, or would he cut the number down to 5,000, 1,000, 8,000, 7,000—or what number would he suggest? Indeed, it would not make very much difference if we made just that change.
    I should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman, in the name of his party: would he seek to reduce the vouchers further? He voiced what many people might think was a criticism that has some validity in saying that we draw on the doctors, and that the doctors are greatly needed in the countries from which they come. Many of them go back to those countries and take with them, we are glad to think, the experience they have acquired in our hospitals and from our teaching. It is excellent that they should take that experience back, and a great many of them do go back. It is a question of how the division between the A and B vouchers should be made, and my right hon. Friend will be very ready to answer any questions on that point that may be raised.
    If we accept that the wives and children must come, there is very little room to change the scale of voucher allowance, and I should like the right hon. Gentleman to accept that fact. I ask him: Is there all that room for very much change? The right hon. Gentleman has spoken to me in very severe terms about control. I would refer him to the words used by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 9th November when, speaking on the Loyal Address, he gave the answer. I should like to repeat that answer, because his language is perfectly clear.
    If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will see that my right hon. Friend proceeded to speak of the White Paper as a whole, and said:
    "This remains our policy, and we are implementing it."
    That is perfectly true—we are implementing it; the rate of vouchers has been scaled down to 8,500, and we are taking those measures that are outlined in the White Paper. We have not yet introduced the legislation which paragraph 25 foreshadowed, and I should like to remind the Committee of what exactly the Government's approach to that is.
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    One thing I was rather glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman. I understand him to say that he thinks that there is a case for putting aliens on the same footing as Commonwealth citizens. He may be right or wrong about that. Many people would say that we should not treat Commonwealth citizens at least any worse than aliens. That is a view, I hope, that he would equally support, but it follows as a matter of necessary logic from his acceptance of the position that that is an open question which we should investigate; that we are perfectly right, as the Prime Minister says we are to do, in setting up this committee. That is the obvious answer.
    I should like the Committee to look closely at my right hon. Friend's language. In the penultimate paragraph of column 50 of the OFFICIAL REPORT he says:
    "Both these problems raise very thorny problems, not least the problem of securing the right balance of treatment as between Commonwealth citizens and aliens"—
    That is the same point on which the right hon. Gentleman dilated for a moment—
    "and again the broader problem—the need for the Home Secretary to keep a balance in his responsibility to Parliament and the nation for the proper administration of the system of control, and on the other hand the need to ensure that the individual concerned has a due and fair opportunity to state his case."
    All of that, I would hope, especially from the terms of the previous debate, the right hon. Gentleman would gladly endorse; the previous debate, added to what he has said this evening.
    My right hon. Friend went on to say:
    "We want to get this legislation right"—
    That is, the legislation dealing with the entry and departure of Commonwealth citizens and aliens alike—
    "and the Government have decided to appoint a small independent committee which can consider the whole problem and make recommendations …".
    He then sets out the terms of reference, and concludes:
    "… and in the light of this we shall prepare the legislation as soon as possible thereafter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th November, 1965; Vol. 720, c. 49–50.]
    I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman cavils at that approach. He

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    has pointed to the problem of the interrelationship of our treatment of aliens with our treatment of Commonwealth citizens. He has said that the legislation is not right. We want to consider it in order to get it right. We have set up this Committee to investigate the whole problem. It will make recommendations to us, and we shall legislate as soon as possible.
    Therefore, when he asks whether we stand by paragraph 25 or whether we are running away from the White Paper, the answer is that we are doing nothing of the sort. That White Paper, as the Prime Minister said, was formulated as a result of the most careful consideration after the Mountbatten Mission had gone to the Commonwealth countries. It was most carefully and anxiously considered before it was printed and, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said perfectly clearly, we stand by it. We say that before we legislate we want to make quite sure that we get humane, sensible and balanced legislation; that we get legislation which deals not only with the alien and protects his rights, but that the justice that should be accorded to him should equally be accorded to the Commonwealth citizen.
    That is our approach. We stand by this White Paper, and intend to legislate in the light of the recommendations made by the Committee in due course. That is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman. We are fully conscious, and always have been, of the strains under which they live. They are admirable citizens, and they play a useful and excellent part in the community; they are likeable, and they are easily assimilable when one gets to know them, but when they congregate in large numbers social frictions do develop—
    Dr. Miller: Before my right hon. and learned Friend leaves the point of granting permission for entry to Commonwealth citizens, will he say whether this Committee will consider extending and increasing the number in the event, say, of some disaster occurring in a Commonwealth country or Colony? I am thinking, for example, of what happened in Tristan da Cunha, when citizens were brought to this country and settled here. Could
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    that apply also, for example, to Rhodesia, where there may be four million Commonwealth citizens who are facing a disaster at present and who may wish to come here?
    Sir F. Soskice: We have said quite clearly what we would do in the case of citizens of Rhodesia who might wish to come here, live here, or take refuge here, and I cannot add to what we have said. In the case of a disaster such as that at Tristan da Cunha, of course, as a matter of ordinary common kindness, if people are in great distress we help them as we helped those people, and we are glad to do so. I do not know what sort of disaster my hon. Friend has in mind, but if he means the kind of natural disaster that occurred at Tristan da Cunha I hope that this country would always respond to the claim of help to persons in distress.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Referring directly to the point that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was discussing—controls—he said that the Government produced paragraphs 23, 24 and 25 as their considered view of necessary measures to be taken. In paragraph 25, the Government said:
    "Without it"—
    that is, the proposal:
    "the effectiveness of the control would be greatly weakened."
    Is the Home Secretary proposing to legislate this Session? I must tell him that, if he is not, there are many of us on this side who feel that the Prime Minister was merely welcoming an opportunity to shove the whole of this problem under the carpet, forget it, and leave British residents for months, and perhaps for more than a year, without this protective legislation.
    8.0 p.m.
    Sir F. Soskice: That, I should have thought, was a discordant note introduced into a debate in which such a note was wholly inappropriate and I hope that we can get away from that kind of controversy. The Prime Minister has been perfectly clear in this matter. He said that legislation, when it is introduced, will take account of the recommendations of this committee. It will be introduced as soon thereafter as possible. I cannot guarantee that it will be this Session, but the Prime Minister's word will be kept and it will

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    be as soon as it can be. That is what he has said. It is a promise to the House and the country that what has been said will certainly be fulfilled.
    As the right hon. Member knows, we have a very important programme of social and legislative reforms, and we will, when we feel that we have the legislation in a completely appropriate and satisfactory form—to quote the Prime Minister's words, "as soon as possible thereafter—introduce the legislation. I am afraid that beyond that I cannot go.
    That is the measure of the problem. It is a problem which is not the creation or fault of any Government. It is a problem which in its human aspects we should be glad to take on as a challenge. It is not a cardinal sin of a person who lives overseas in a more impoverished country a an our own to seek to come here. We should be glad to help him within our capacity, bearing in mind that we want him here not as a stranger but as a citizen and that, wherever we look, populations are moving and will go on moving all over the world as the world gets smaller in its confines.
    Those are the answers I give to the right hon. Member. I hope that we shall continue to approach this problem in the future as we have been approaching it throughout the course of the year. If the right hon. Member criticises our policy and says that we fall short of what we intend to do, he should say so and should say what his party would do to improve it. He has no right to criticise us unless he has an alternative measure to propose to the House and the country.
    Mr. Henry Brooke: What we are debating this evening is nothing less than whether we shall be able in this country to avoid the atmosphere of racial bitterness and outbreaks of racial hatred which hang like a menacing cloud permanently over America. This is something to which we must all set ourselves.
    Listening to the Home Secretary, I had no doubt about his good will, but I was not quite so sure about his determination to save our children and grandchildren from what may come to this country if the right decisions are not taken now. It requires, of course, action both locally
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    and nationally. I agree with what is said in the White Paper about local liaison committees. My borough of Camden has set up a strong committee on community relations. I was glad to be present at the meeting to inaugurate that committee. This fulfils an essential need; responsible local people of all parties and none must be brought together to consider carefully what are the local implications and manifestations to which attention needs to be given quickly if an undesirable racial atmosphere is not to build up. I am sure that representatives of the immigrant community ought to be included in these committees.
    Nationally, when I was Home Secretary I had the benefit of the Commonwealth Immigrants Advisory Council under Lady Reading's admirable chairmanship. It produced three excellent reports in my time, and another has been presented to the present Home Secretary. I am not at all clear why that Council has been wound up. It made an invaluable contribution in its time to the problems of assimilation of the enormous numbers of Commonwealth immigrants who poured into this country before there was any power of control. It seemed to me it would have been wiser to continue with that Council than to set it aside and to replace it by a new body.
    If the Act of 1962, which made possible for the first time a control of the rate of immigration, had not been passed, the strains in this country would already by now have become insupportable. Anyone who looks at the figures for the years immediately before the control was brought in must accept that. When I was Home Secretary I received very interesting reports from the police in the year after control had become effective. I wanted to find whether in fact the operation of the Act had aggravated or mitigated tensions locally. Almost without exception the reports I got back were that the racial situation was improved. In most cases the principal reason given for that was that now there was a system of statutory control over the rate of entry of Commonwealth immigrants it seemed to people for the first time worth while to try to tackle the problem locally because, for the first time, there was evidence that the Government were trying to handle the situation nationally.

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    I am quite sure that the building up of acceptable social relationships throughout the country depends on national control over numbers of immigrants. What we have learned in these last three years is that the 1962 Act, which at the time was criticised as oppressive, was in fact not a sufficiently effective instrument. Parliament insisted at the time that the Act should be framed generously and administered generously. Immigration officers were given to understand that applicants to land here were to be given the benefit of the doubt. Questioning was not to be too searching. The applicant's bona fides was to be assumed.
    In consequence of all that, after a time and as the pressure built up it became known among some of the would-be immigrants what methods to use if they wanted to evade the control. That is how the evasion started. For example, one could pretend falsely that one was a close relative of someone already in this country. Another way was to claim that one was coming as a student. Parliament had insisted that there must be absolutely no obstacle in the way of students coming from the Commonwealth to this country. That was entirely right, but it opened the door to people who pretended that they were coming as students but in fact did not apply themselves seriously to any course of study after they were here and simply entered the labour market.
    Aliens are normally admitted to this country subject to a time limit. If they are found here long after that time limit has expired, the Government have the sanction of being able to deport them. But once a Commonwealth citizen had got past the immigration officer, he was here for good. Until recently, very few Commonwealth citizens were admitted subject to a time limit, although I understand from the Home Secretary that that is now being applied to students and some others. But it is no use fixing the condition of a time limit on an immigrant, unless there is an effective way of enforcing it. Up to now I do not believe there has been.
    There must be an effective power of actually enforcing a time limit on the stay of Commonwealth citizens. Otherwise evasion cannot be penalised or stopped. That is what is worrying me
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    about the Government having drawn back from the firm words they used in the August White Paper about the necessity for further legislative action. The situation now, in 1965, demands a more complete machinery of control than Parliamentary opinion was willing to accept in 1962. The Government clearly recognised this fact in August of this year. Are they now, under pressure from their Left wing, running away from what they know to be the truth about that? In August the Government said that they regarded
    "it as important that there should be a speedy and effective power to repatriate immigrants who in one way or another … evade the stricter control over immigration that is now envisaged."
    Do the Government still regard it as important, because by agreeing to set up this new Committee they have evidently postponed for a considerable time the moment when that new legislative action can be brought in? In August they said that it was necessary that it should be speedy. Do not they any longer think that it needs to be speedy now?
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Is the right hon. Gentleman implying that he would be against the setting up of such a Committee, whether for aliens or for Commonwealth immigrants? If he is in favour of the setting up of such a Committee, what is his objection to what the Government are doing?
    Mr. Brooke: If the Committee is thought necessary, well and good, but the Committee certainly should not be allowed to cause delay to action which the Government themselves have said is speedily needed. It would be perfectly possible for the Government to ask Parliament straight away for powers in this respect, which they themselves have said are needed speedily, and then to carry out the longer-term inquiry if they thought fit.
    Mr. Silverman: Does this mean that what the right hon. Gentleman is asking the Government to do is to pass the legislation first and consider whether it is right afterwards?
    Mr. Brooke: I think the Government have in fact followed that line of action on several occasions already. I was not making a fresh appeal to them to pursue again their frequent course of action.

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    I hope I shall not be out of order, Mr. Lever, in comparing the procedure regarding Commonwealth immigrants with that affecting aliens. Control of alien immigration is exercised under a code which is now 50 years old and is continued from year to year in the strange way which we have been debating this evening. Control of Commonwealth immigrants rests upon a radically different code—this is important—which is less than four years old. We have, even in these three and a half years, learned a great deal about its strengths and its weaknesses. In the longer term I believe, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft), that a determined effort should be made to bring the two codes closer together and to replace the Aliens Act and the Commonwealth Immigrants Act with a single composite Measure. I fully recognise that that cannot be done in a few weeks or months. It requires long study. Where here are differences between the treatment of aliens and Commonwealth immigrants, I am sure that Commonwealth immigrants should have the preference. But I cannot believe that the two problems are so utterly distinct from one another that Parliament ought to accept indefinitely the continuance of these two utterly different and unrelated codes.
    I do not see why Commonwealth citizens generally, like aliens generally, should not be admitted to this country in the first instance for a limited period. At the moment there are powers in the 1962 Act to do that in certain cases but not in other cases. The Home Secretary Knows as well as I do that it is extremely doubtful whether a time limit is effectively enforceable, until the new legislation which the Government said a few months ago was speedily needed has been Drought before Parliament.
    When I said that I believed that Commonwealth immigrants, like aliens, should generally be admitted in the first instance subject to a time limit, I would certainly make an exception in favour of he wife and young children of an immigrant who is already here. That was the question which the Home Secretary put to my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth a short while ago. I cannot speak for my party. I can speak only for myself, but I have no doubt whatever about what my answer to that
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    would be. On that account I could not agree with the extreme suggestion I have heard made, though I have not heard it made in the House of Commons, that all further immigration should be halted, temporarily or permanently, until we can get the situation here at home under better control.
    8.15 p.m.
    Besides wives and children, of course we should admit and welcome genuine students, genuine holiday makers, genuine business visitors, and particularly we should welcome those men and women who want to come to this country and take a professional or vocational course here to fit them for life, in order that when they are qualified they can go to work in one of the developing countries. I certainly do not see why we should lay permanent claim to all those people who come to undergo training here. It would be unfair of us to do so. We should give every facility to those who wish to obtain such training in this country and then use their new-found skills elsewhere.
    Having said that, I must state, except for a very small number to whom special circumstances may apply, I do not think that we ought to admit any more Commonwealth immigrants for permanent residence here until we have made much greater advance in providing for the million or so who are already here, and helping them to adjust themselves to life in Britain.
    A few minutes ago the Home Secretary said that it would not make very much difference if we cut down the issue of vouchers. I must remind him that each new voucher holder who comes here will normally be the head of a family. In coming he will carry with him an entitlement to bring his wife and small children. They in due course will set up their own households in this country. It is the voucher holders who cannot be counted in ones alone. Each one means starting a new family in this country.
    After all, a million Commonwealth immigrants here already amount to one in fifty of our whole population. There are vast tracts of the country where they are hardly ever seen. I am not surprised if right hon. and hon. Members coming from those constituencies are less acutely aware of the problem than we are in London and the big cities. If the million

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    were equally spread over the whole of England, Scotland and Wales, the problems of adjustment and mutual acceptance would be infinitely easier than they are. But there is no power of compulsory geographical direction in this country, and no one wishes there to be. It is idle dreaming to suggest that the problem can be solved in that way.
    Perfectly naturally, the immigrants congregate where work for them is easy to find. Unfortunately, many of those places are also the places where there would be a housing problem even without them, and where their coming has made the clearance of slums and the improvement of housing conditions far more difficult than it would otherwise have been. It is not the overall numbers who are in the country; it is the local concentration that accentuates the risks of race feeling.
    It is to guard now against the possibilities of race tension and race hatred in the future that I am concerned. It is primarily with this that Parliament should now be concerned. In all that I say and do on this crucial question, I intend to be guided by two firm principles, which I hope will be generally acceptable to the Committee. All people with lawful permission to live in this country as fellow citizens of ours should be treated alike, should have equal opportunities, and should be given every chance to bring up their children as good British citizens. There is a great deal more to be done, if we are to satisfy that principle.
    Secondly, and parallel with that, the numbers of newcomers admitted to permanent residence here must be limited to those who can be successfully absorbed in our towns and cities. Having decided how many can be absorbed, we must make the control effective so that that purpose is achieved.
    If we neglect either of the principles that I have stated, the risk and disaster of racial outbreaks in years ahead will become a certainty. We have to think far ahead. The Government must clear their minds as to what the broad lines of policy are to be towards future immigration of both Commonwealth citizens and aliens into this already fairly densely populated island.
    This is the time, I submit, for fundamental thinking about that question, and
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    then for policy decisions based on longterm purposes, and not on day-to-day pressures. What the Committee is entitled to discover tonight is whether the Government and the party which supports them are clear in their minds on all this, whether they are firm in their purpose, and whether or not they are united.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: I would begin by taking up one of the remarks by the right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke). It seemed to me that he was arguing that there might be no solution to the problem of immigration and race relations in this country except by virtually limiting further immigration to the wives and other immediate dependants of those already here.
    In arguing in this way, the right hon. Gentleman drew an unfair parallel with the United States. One of the striking differences between the United States and what has happened here in the last few years is that in the United States the bulk of the Legislature and Executive are now firmly committed against any form of racial discrimination and are moving away from discrimination based on quotas in their immigration policy towards a much more liberal immigration policy, and this at a time when we are moving in the opposite direction. I take this opportunity to pay a much deserved commendation to the United States.
    I would ask the right hon. Gentleman a question, whether he believes that unlike France, unlike West Germany which has absorbed 1 million immigrants since the war, unlike the Netherlands which has absorbed 100,000 immigrants from Indonesia—its immigrant population is closely equivalent to what we have absorbed—we are incapable of achieving the same reasonably good race relations as the countries of the Continent have achieved? If that is the case, we must ask why this is so.
    I am afraid that I disagree with the right hon. Member for Hampstead and the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) when they argue that the result of the 1962 Measure was to improve race relations here. I believe that there has been a deterioration in the last few years. That deterioration has not followed because certain limits have been applied. Most of us would argue that there necessarily have to be certain

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    limits based on the capacity, economic and social, of this country to absorb people from outside, regardless of whether they are from the Commonwealth or other countries.
    The crucial difference is that in the last two or three years we have failed to undertake the job of educating both the immigrant community and the host community, a job which fell to us to do. Time and again opportunities to show our public the true facts about immigration have been lost in the desire to win votes on a subject which is far too emotionally weighted already and far too crucial for the future of this country and the world for us to engage in such an operation.
    I want to take two points which are consistently distorted and misunderstood First, there is the point about evasions. I was glad that the right hon. Member for Monmouth mentioned this. We must point out time and again that evasions occur on the part of all people who transfer from one country to another, not specifically immigrants to Britain, and not specifically immigrants from the new Commonwealth countries to this country. It is our duty not continually to build up the subject of evasion and demand more and more controls. We ought to try to put the matter in its context. How many of those whom we now call evaders evade because they still regard this country in some sense as their mother country but do not recognise the number of requirements which have to be satisfied before they can settle down here? I have met Australian students who fail to register but go on living here and eventually take jobs, and they do this not because they want to break the law but because they are unaware that the law exists.
    Again and again the right hon. Member for Hampstead stressed the weight imposed on the social services and housing by the immigrants. We must look at this rationally. We must balance what immigrants, alien and Commonwealth, contribute to this country against what they take out. I do not believe that even hon. Gentlemen opposite who keep labouring the point about diseases brought into this country could deny that the contribution made to the National Health Service by Commonwealth immigrants is infinitely greater than what they take out
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    of the country. I do not believe that it can be shown, although it can be argued, that even in respect of housing the contribution made to the construction industry by all immigrants who claim to be Irish is less than what they take out. All one can say is that the assumptions have to be proved.
    Finally, we must face the fact that there is a genuine balance here. On the one hand, there is the improvement of the standard of living here brought about by the presence of the immigrants—and that means an improvement in the rate of economic growth. On the other hand, there is the attitude which hon. Gentlemen opposite are increasingly taking towards immigration of all sorts, that no more should be allowed. If that is the view which they take, all right. But let them be honest and admit that this means a more slowly rising standard of living than we should otherwise get and that this is the price that our people will have to pay. Let them contrast it with West Germany, where the increase in the standard of living and economic growth certainly owes, in the view of the West German authorities, a great deal to their relatively liberal policy towards immigration.
    I turn to one or two specific points. First, I congratulate the Home Secretary very warmly on setting up the Committee to consider appeals against deportation. All of us on this side of the Committee are glad about that, and I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite are, too. We believe that it would be extremely dangerous to undermine our democratic structure in order to pursue a temporarily popular policy. We believe that in this respect the setting up of the Committee is a step towards the protection of our fundamental and vital institutions. Secondly, we are grateful for what at least appears to be the emergence of a rather more liberal attitude towards those dependants who, through no fault of their own, require the support of an immigrant already in this country.
    8.30 p.m.
    However, having said that, let me make two constructive comments. First, the White Paper and the Immigration Act, 1962, whose continuation we are considering this evening, both depend to a very great extent on the services given by immigration officers. I have no doubt

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    that the men and women of the Immigration Service do their very best under what is often great strain, but we must recognise that in the present situation more and more executive powers are being given to them and that more and more depends on their ability to make a judgment, which is necessarily often a judgment made within a matter of minutes.
    I therefore suggest that we should try as far as possible to place at each of the main ports and airports of entry someone capable of speaking the essential languages used by Commonwealth immigrants in order to be able not only to interpret but, as the situation requires, as far as possible to act as a liaison officer between the person entering and the immigration officer when the language spoken by the person wishing to enter is not primarily English.
    Secondly, I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to consider either publishing the rules now governing the behaviour of immigration officers or, if that is not possible, at least making them available to the new Commonwealth Immigration Committee under the chairmanship of the Archbishop of Canterbury so that full consideration can be given to the rules by a body set up for the purpose.
    The right hon. Member for Hampstead spoke of avoiding the problem of race relations in this country by getting rid of the problem altogether, but of course, it is too late to do that. Most of us on this side of the Committee would not think it right to do so, but, anyway, it is too late.
    Mr. Brooke: What does the hon. Lady mean by "getting rid of the problem"? There are one million people here already and their number will multiply. How can there be any question of getting rid of them?
    Mrs. Williams: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with me that the problem cannot be got rid of. The point I was making was that several times in the course of his speech he insisted on saying that we would find that we had the same sort of race relations problem as in the United States if we did not now as far as possible end further immigration into this country. What he has to face up to, as we all have,
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    is what price has to be paid for an illiberal attitude towards immigrant people.
    As the Government and the Opposition of 1962 moved towards a more restrictive attitude towards immigration, they placed upon themselves a crucial responsibility for improving relations between the immigrant community and the host community. The right hon. Member for Hampstead spoke of the creation of British citizens out of an earlier generation of immigrant people. The section of the White Paper dealing with immigration is absolutely crucial to this issue of creating citizens out of the immigrant community here.
    Perhaps particularly in respect of apprenticeships, where we are beginning to create a skilled and leading group among the immigrant community, and in respect of fair employment practices, not least promotion in employment, we need to ask the Government to look very carefully at the execution of the policy so far laid down to see whether we can create within the immigrant community a body of people who recognise that in promotion and apprenticeship and education itself—and in this I want to pay some personal respects to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science for the efforts which he has made in this direction and which, although not always successful, have certainly been well intentioned—integration lies at the very nub of the problem.
    We will be able to look with genuine sincerity at those who look to us and who ask, "What lead did you give in what was the most crucial domestic problem of your times?" only if we are able to say that we worked on immigration and made sure that these people became British citizens one generation later on. We will be able to avoid the problems which the right hon. Gentleman outlined only if we make such an effort to integrate those already in our midst.
    Mr. William Deedes: I find myself in considerable sympathy with nearly everything the hon. Lady the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams) has said. I hope that she and other hon. Members opposite do not necessarily assume that there is a fundamental difference in philosophy between the outlook of some of us on this issue and the outlook of the hon. Lady herself and others. That would not be true.

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    I want to return to the exchanges between the Home Secretary and my right Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) on the issue of the dependants and the point which arises from those exchanges. The Home Secretary challenged my right hon. Friend on what his policy would be in respect of these dependants and my right hon. Friend replied that, without further knowledge of the prospects and without more knowledge of the figures at stake, he found it impossible to answer the question.
    That brings me to the main point which I want to make to the Committee in a very short speech. It is an aspect of this whole problem, on which I hope Members on both sides of the Committee may find something in common. It is something which has exercised me for a long time, and I now think it exercises the Home Secretary. It is the total inadequacy of the system for keeping an adequate record of Commonwealth immigrants who enter this country, who reside in this country and who leave this country. I do not believe that we are going to be able to carry on much longer without a better system of accounts. I hope that in saying that I speak for both sides of the Committee, because no one benefits from a slipshod method of accountancy which leaves everyone in doubt as to what is really happening. We must face up to the need for a better system, not least in the interests of the immigrants themselves.
    I do not believe that we can tackle evasions, sensibly or justly—and it is accepted by the right hon. and learned Gentleman that there are evasions—on the present basis. Nor can we get, and no one is able to give in the course of this debate, the accurate picture which ought to be given on the immigrant state. I mean not immigrant prospects but the present immigrant state. This must include not only those who come, but those who have left. I am not without misgivings on this and a certain amount of reluctance, but I am convinced, after looking through this pretty thoroughly, that we shall have to adopt part of the machinery which is now used for checking the entry and exodus of foreginers or aliens under the other head.
    In the White Paper the Government really go far towards admitting the evi-
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    dence which leads one to this conclusion, only it seems that they deny the conclusion itself. There may be reasons for doing this. I think that at the time when the Act was first discussed in this House, in 1962, there were reasons for keeping a very strict dividing line between the system which then obtained for aliens and the system that we hoped would obtain for Commonwealth citizens.
    This is a point which now ought to receive fresh attention, for administrative reasons. Paragraphs 23 and 24 of the White Paper foreshadow action which would demand a more systematic approach to our accounting, if that is the right word. Paragraph 23 says:
    "The Government propose to seek a general power to impose conditions on the admission of any Commonwealth citizen who is subject to control."
    This simply cannot be done on the system under which we are now operating. Such a system can only work if there exist for Commonwealth citizens something of the machinery which now works in respect of aliens. It bears stating, and I do not think it has been said tonight, that the present system operates most unfairly upon the highly skilled corps of immigration officers. A number of challenges have been thrown down tonight on whether there should be executive or judicial responsibility for refusal of entry. What happens in effect is that the immigration officers at the ports hold the bulk of the responsibility in respect of Commonwealth citizens for decisions which are taken.
    I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that they are being given impossible duties. This is illustrated in the words of paragraph 11 of the White Paper which says:
    "On 4th February, 1965, the Home Secretary informed the House of Commons that he had found evidence that evasion of the existing control was being practised on a considerable scale. He was therefore instructing immigration officers to scrutinise more carefully the intentions and bona fides of Commonwealth citizens who sought entry, and to make full use of their power to impose conditions."
    Members of the Committee will accept that this reads all right in a White Paper. But what is one asking the immigration officers to do? Those of us who know a little about this work which they are being called upon to do will know that all this is much more easily said than done. The

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    Committee ought to realise this. The officers handle something like 16 million people in the course of a year. This figure rises by about 10 per cent. every year. The figures were quoted in another place by a representative of the Joint Under-Secretary's Department. Unless conditions can be enforced, they become valueless. I submit that as things are they cannot be enforced.
    I hope that hon. Members, and the Home Secretary in particular, will refresh their memories from the proceedings in the 11th Report of the Estimates Committee. Pages 55 to 91 go thoroughly into the method practised in respect of aliens and Commonwealth citizens at the ports, which in the context of this debate illuminates precisely what has to happen if we seek stringently to check or to control entry into this country.
    In the case of all those who are granted leave to land, those who are called aliens—totalling, I thought, 2½million, and the Home Secretary mentioned a figure of 2,700,000, out of a total of 15–16 million a year—those not holding British passports are required to fill in a landing card and later an embarkation card. This, indeed, is what most of us are required to do when we enter or leave Commonwealth countries. That is a point to be borne in mind.
    Those cards concerning aliens are dispatched to Princeton House, alphabetically filed and paired. This is called the Aliens' Passenger Traffic Index and 75 per cent. of it relates to bona fide visitors who come and go. When, however, after a specified period, one card is not matched by another, chasing inquiries are set afoot.
    At this point we may well find that there must be a divergence in the system. We know who have come in, we know who have gone out. We have an accounting method, and linked to this in the case of aliens there is for all except the permanent foreign residents, 300,000 in number, the need for a portion of them to register with the police. In the case of Commonwealth citizens, there is no card of one sort or another and no registration. In other words, in the first category all are accounted for individually. As to the second category the Joint Under-Secretary will I think accept that the
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    record is simply statistical. The Home Secretary had to admit in last year's debate that
    "Since the control began, nearly half a million visitors have come into this country, but it is difficult for me to inform the Committee what is the number who went out because Commonwealth citizens leaving the United Kingdom are not, under the existing system of control, classified."
    That, I think, is still true.
    The right hon. and learned Gentleman went on to say that when they leave,
    "one does not know whether they are workers, visitors or students, because no record is kept to classify them".
    The right hon. and learned Gentleman added to those remarks the observation that a certain number of visitors had undoubtedly stayed on and evaded the terms of their admission and that this was a problem of seriousness. Those were the Home Secretary's words.
    Up to now, for good reasons—as both sides, I think, would accept—we have set our face against too close a relationship between the two systems. Again, the Home Secretary said that
    "to go further than the existing scheme of control … one has to contemplate … the type of severe control which we apply to aliens."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November. 1964; Vol. 702, cc. 280–1, 284.]
    In our earlier proceedings tonight the Home Secretary gave that system a fairly good chit in response to some of the criticisms that were being directed at him by the Committee.
    I hope that no hon. Member is under the illusion that we are discussing a Draconian system in contrast to a more friendly system, because that is not true. The Home Secretary's own words are quite correct. He does not say that it would be impossible to do this. He merely says that it would be very much resented. This is the thing to which I hope minds will be turned afresh. I agree that there would be substantial difficulties in bringing in the aliens' machinery—the accountancy side of it—for this category of Commonwealth immigrant. What I must ask is: do the defects which arise from evasion and other problems outweigh those difficulties?
    8.45 p.m.
    There seem to me four reasons why this matter should be considered very seriously. First, evasions cannot be

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    checked without a better system, and evasions are grossly unjust, not only to those already here, but to those who are kept out. It can be just to none if some who know the ropes can get in while those who are out and who try to come here a straightforward way are kept out.
    Secondly, there is the question of repatriation to which the White Paper refers. How can repatriation be justly worked without a basic check system? Take the case of a Commonwealth student who has turned to employment in this country. What check can be kept in respect of him? Or take the person who has been repatriated and then has returned to this country. In respect of aliens, that is not generally possible. In respect of Commonwealth citizens, it is possible, and it is to nobody's advantage that that should be so.
    Thirdly, I think that we must declare more closely the statistics of those who come and go, not only in totals, which is done now, but in categories. That seems to me an imperative necessity at this stage. This has a bearing on national acceptance of those who are already here. It is no good blinking the fact that at least one fundamental source of disquiet among reasonable people is the belief that we have no exact control; we do not know exactly what we are doing. We cannot always account for all the numbers. The White Paper makes clear that this is a justified source of disquiet.
    Fourthly, in so far as we get the system to work, we have to misuse over-worked immigration officers who, I repeat, are given an intolerably difficult task. For political reasons, we require them to undertake work which they should not be asked to undertake. We call on them to exercise judgment which it should not be for them to exercise. In the absence of adequate machinery, we ask public servants to make good a deficiency which it is not their job to make good. This is not only inefficient; it is unjust. All law which cannot be enforced is unjust, and it is the greatest folly to believe that we can temper justice with mercy by flaccid administration. I would describe the administration in this respect as flaccid. We confound justice; we do not assist it.
    I know from some little experience of the Aliens' Department that some hon. Members are critical of it, both in par-
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    ticular and in general respects. Certain hon. Members, year after year, quite rightly bring forward their complaints against it. Succeeding régimes have sought to prove and alternative régimes have sought to convince us that it is more equitable than it appears to be.
    However, this can be said: at no time has any criticism of the Aliens' Department which I have heard included the charge of wide-spread evasion. That is one charge which has never been laid against the administration in particular or in general, and it seems to me a point in its favour. Those who have the immigrants' cause at heart should support the belief that administration in this sense should be made more efficient and put on a proper accounting basis and not left to some ludicrous lottery which favours, not the honest people who want to come here, and have a right to do so, but those who cheat.
    Mr. Roy Hattersley: I want to begin by conceding gladly the first point that was made by the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes). Hon. Members on this side of the Committee know very well that the gulf which divides them from some hon. Members opposite is not as great as might be supposed. The operative word is "some", because the gulf which divides Members on this side from hon. Members opposite is very wide indeed. Anyone who wants proof of that has only to remember as far back as the remarkable performance by the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) in opening the debate.
    He began by saying that during the last year debates on immigration had been marked by a conciliatory tone. I believe that is right, and I have played my own insignificant part in trying to bring it about. But I do not think that even the right hon. Gentleman himself would believe that the things he said today were intended to strike an uncontroversial note or to be conciliatory. Even making allowance for the right hon. Gentleman's normally ebullient, indeed, frenetic style, I think hon. Members on this side must have heard his remarks with the gloomy conclusion that his intentional purpose was to bring about a higher level of emotion and a more intense level of debate.

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    He made what was, in my view, an entirely distasteful reference to the three wives whom he suggested might be brought in or had been brought in by immigrants. That remark was indicative of the sort of campaign that some of us faced in the Midlands a year ago and the sort of campaign that has been going on in the Midlands ever since, but it was also indicative of something deeper than that, which I fear to be the right hon. Gentleman's real attitude.
    He seems to be obsessed by one single word, and that is the word "colour". Let me take an example to demonstrate that. I believe entirely in the propriety and the desirability of the Ministry of Education's Circular No. 765. Some of my hon. Friends disagree, but I believe in the necessity for limiting the number of non-English-speaking children in any one class to 30 per cent. When the right hon. Member for Monmouth made his contribution in favour of that Circular he said he wanted to see the limitation of the number of coloured children in each class to 30 per cent. Those two things are very different, and they are entirely indicative of the great gulf that divides some hon. Gentlemen opposite from the overwhelming majority of hon. Members on this side.
    I have admitted before in the House, and I admit again, that over the last three years my attitude to the legislation, the continuance of which we are considering tonight, has changed. Three years ago, I suffered from a tendency to oversimplify, and I was opposed to the Bill as it then stood. I remain opposed to many of the motives that prompted it, but I can see the necessity of its objects, and the necessity of the things it brought about. Those of us who admitted that we have changed our views on this crucial issue expected, in the nature of politics, that we would be required to eat some dirt. Some of us have had that diet thrust down us for many months. No one complains about that. If that was the only price that one had to pay for better race relations, it would be a price worth paying. But a more sinister note has crept into the Government's acceptance of some of the principles of the 1962 Commonwealth Immigrants Act, because the more the Government have moved
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    towards accepting it, the further the Opposition have retreated in the other direction, ensuring that the gulf dividing us is as wide as ever and that party political issues can still be wheeled out if at a future time they are regarded as expedient.
    Any right hon. or hon. Gentleman who doubts the accuracy of that judgment has to do no more than read the remarkable speech made by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) in Birmingham on Sunday night. I say without any trepidation that I am always suspicious of the motives of Front Bench spokesmen whose specialisation is something different from home affairs but who choose to go to the heart of the Midlands, to Birmingham, to advance their views on tighter immigration control.
    I am particularly sceptical of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West whose reputation in this House and in the country is based on, first, his overwhelming support of a free market economy; secondly, the absolute pursuit of that policy with a ruthless logic which is not compromised no matter how unpopular his advocacy may be; and, thirdly, his complete and absolute integrity; yet he comes to the city in England which is more labour-hungry, which is more in need of additional workers than any other place in the Commonwealth, and, as a representative of a free market economy, and with the ruthless logic that must support it, tells them that he wants to see immigration to this country substantially cut down.
    That does not seem to fit into any of the things on which his reputation has been based. It does not seem to fit in with his reputation for ruthless logic, overwhelming authority, and overwhelming integrity. The figures he then quoted were notoriously bogus. They are specially selected to give the most damaging, the most critical, and I think the most hysterical, concept of the immigration problem in Birmingham.
    I understand that the Minister of Labour is likely to take part in this debate. I do not know what his views are, or indeed what the Government's views are, on the economic issues of immigration, but from my point of view it seems that economically all the arguments are in favour of immigration being allowed to

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    extend, being allowed to expand, being allowed to continue in much more substantial numbers than at the moment. The economic arguments are all in favour of more immigration. They are all in favour of more labour and greater growth.
    But I do not see the debate as an economic one. It was the right hon. Member for Monmouth who produced the remarkable economic analysis of the situation by talking about "the importation of additional male workers into this country." That is a phrase which typifies the right hon. Gentleman's attitude rather than mine. I believe that the debate is a social rather than an economic one.
    I support the continuation of the 1962 Act, and I support the continuation of controls. Indeed, I support the extension of controls which I think should be applied a good deal more rigorously and stringently, because I believe it to be a social necessity. I say that because in the country there are people who do not look at immigration with the quiet, objective logic that should be possible in this House.
    We know, and we should put it on record, that the immigrants cause virtually none of the problems about which we have heard this evening. They are not flooding into this country and sapping the National Insurance Fund.
    Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Would not my hon. Friend agree that if he takes that to its logical conclusion he is accepting the point that he made a little earlier, that the more we proceed in accepting this point of view the more we ate accepting the basic idea which the Opposition have put forward?
    Mr. Hattersley: My hon. Friend seems to have arrived at the conclusion of the point I am making while I am only at the beginning of it. If he bears with me until I have made my point, I shall give way to him again if he wants to say that the gulf which divides me from hon. Gentlemen opposite is not as wide as I say it is.
    I am saying that the social crises in our great cities have not been caused by immigrants. They are not poaching council houses. They are not causing the housing shortage and the housing crises which the right hon. Member for Hamp-
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    stead (Mr. Brooke) implied they were, and I would have thought that the right hon. Gentleman at least would have known that the Milner Holland Report says:
    "Immigrants are the victims, not the cause of the London housing crisis."
    Immigrants are not going to flood the labour market. They are not going to imperil the solvency of the National Insurance Fund. They cause none of these problems, but one has to face the fact, not with approval but with reluctance, that many people believe that they do.
    9.0 p.m.
    If one is realistic one has to face the fact that people who are short of houses and who are afraid that hospital beds will not be available, and people who are worried about the education of their children, suspect that immigrants have some part in bringing about the unsatisfactory state of our social and welfare services. I believe that those who take an interest in immigration have three duties. The first is to do all that we can to demonstrate that immigrants have not caused these problems; the second is to allay the fears of those people who are misguided enough to believe it, and believe it genuinely with fear that occasionally amounts to terror. The third is to encourage the immigrants who are here and those amongst whom they live to build a genuinely, truly and freely integrated community, to such an extent and degree that the fears that turn to prejudice are eventually abandoned.
    The critical issue by which we must all be tested as we vote in favour of extending the policy of immigration control is whether or not we genuinely want the immigrants to come here and want those who will come here in the future to be fully and completely integrated into the community. The arguments which exist —I admit they exist and, in a sense, I am glad that they exist—between myself and my hon. Friends are not about that fundamental problem. My hon. Friends and I may disagree about whether or not integration can best be brought about by the encouragement of additional immigrants or by a limitation on immigrants, but our intentions and objectives are to build a truly integrated, multi-racial society.

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    The right hon. Member for Monmouth is so concerned about integration that he rejects the word altogether. He produces words of his own, such as "adjustment", "alteration", and "change". We on this side of the Committee believe integration to be the justification for a policy which temporarily limits the numbers of immigrants—or, at least, I do. Some months ago I coined a phrase which, for all its inadequacy, remains the best I can do. I believe that integration without limitation is impossible; equally, I believe that limitation without integration is indefensible.
    One of the things which must cause all of us regret is that in his opening speech the right hon. Member for Monmouth, representing the party opposite, cast integration aside with a few cursory remarks at the end. I believe that more money must be set aside for genuine and positive integration. I believe that those local authorities which, by design or mistake, discriminate in their housing regulations against immigrants must be stopped from discriminating. I believe that those schools which are so organised that immigrant children get less than adequate education must be reorganised. I believe that those building societies and insurance companies which, by design or mistake, discriminate against immigrants must be stopped from discriminating.
    This is why, six months ago, I was one of those who particularly regretted that the Race Relations Bill missed an opportunity of putting immigrants on a parity with indigenous citizens in those fields where parity matters: housing and employment. I believe genuinely in integration. That is what this debate should be about. I believe that limitation can only be decent if it is regarded as a prop for a policy of integration. If we are discussing a limitation of entry for its own sake we are at the top of a slippery slope which may begin with some votes being won or lost and some temporary popularity, but which must end in the sort of racialism which I genuinely believe most hon. Members abhor and wish to avoid.
    Sir George Sinclair: I go some way with the views expressed by the last speaker, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) on
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    a balanced policy of stricter controls as a condition of a proper adjustment. I use that phrase because I prefer it to the others that have been used. I believe that we need a far more vigorous policy on immigration. We need stricter control of entry and more positive measures to help immigrants already here. The Government's policy seems to me to be failing on both these counts.
    First, on controls. The Home Secretary has spoken on several occasions about evasion. It is not good enough to promise, as the Government did in the Gracious Speech, to set up a special committee to review all the control procedures. The Home Secretary has indicated that legislation is unlikely during this Session. We should not wait for that legislation, I believe, before taking action. If the Home Secretary has the powers, he must use them. If he has not, he should seek them from the House without delay. Longer-term controls can be devised in the light of the findings of the special committee.
    On the subject of control, I find myself also in agreement with the general proposition of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke). He wishes to avoid allowing a problem to develop in this country which might later get out of control. I have real sympathy with that view and I think that it was a basic idea behind the speech of the hon. Member for Sparkbrook.
    There is a detailed matter of control on which we should have a change and we should have it immediately. Can we, in a comparatively much richer country, defend taking from poorer countries some of the skilled manpower which they desperately need? The Government's recent policy statement makes special provision for a continuing, though much reduced, flow of nurses, doctors, dentists and teachers—all from the Commonwealth. These are to be part of the annual quota of 8,500 voucher holders. In recent years, many of them have come here planning to stay, because they find the openings in their own country unattractive by comparison with prospects in Britain. We have no justification for attracting them to come and to stay here when their services are needed in their own country.
    But there are others in these four groups—the majority, I believe—who

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    come here with the backing of their Governments, to gain additional experience and higher qualifications, and then return home. These, surely, should be treated as students, with the periods of their stay defined, or they could be treated on an equal footing with those who come here for industrial experience and who are catered for in paragraph 18 of the White Paper. Under either of these schemes, they should be welcomed, as students have been welcomed and should continue to be welcomed. But they should be outside the quota and the voucher system, which is for true immigrants. So much for controls.
    The Government's failure on the other side of the immigration policy is, I believe, serious. In the measures set out in the White Paper to help immigrants adjust themselves to life in Britain, they have shown a dismal lack of imagination and leadership. It is here that they have lost a great opportunity to show in action that they mean what they say. In their statement of policy, they failed to give any impression of practical good will. They give no resolute lead to public opinion. The hon. Member for Spark-brook stressed the importance of giving a lead to public opinion and making the facts known. Nor do they propose an effective programme of national measures to help. They seem to wish to contract out of direct responsibility and to leave the initiative largely to local authorities and voluntary bodies.
    This is surely far too important a social problem—for us and our children, for the immigrants themselves, for everyone in Britain and for our relations with the outside world—to be treated in this way.
    The central machinery of Government for dealing with this matter is not nearly strong enough. I believe that the Junior Minister charged with this responsibility has done a good job, but it is really not enough to have him working part-time in a Ministry which should have most of its attention concerned with other affairs. The responsibility should surely be in a Ministry concerned, in the normal course of its duties, with immigration. And the Minister responsible should be supported by a stronger staff, including regional officers directly responsible to
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    his Ministry, and he should have greatly increased funds at his disposal.
    I now wish to deal with two main points; housing and employment. Housing is only one of the keys of adjustment. For reasons which have been vividly described in the House of Commons, in the Press and in the B.B.C.'s helpful series "Colour in Britain" we know that immigrants are often forced to settle—
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Harold Lever): Order. Detailed consideration of the integration of Commonwealth immigrants is not in order, although passing reference to it may be made. The hon. Gentleman has gone into this question already in rather greater detail than is permissible, but he must not pursue this point in any greater detail.
    Sir G. Sinclair: That Ruling fills me with some dismay, Mr. Lever, in view of the very wide range of all the speeches which have preceded mine in the discussion of the measures of integration. I agree with previous speakers that this is one of the things that we are called upon to discuss in this debate because it is on the absorptive capacity of the country and the measures for adjustment and integration that we must base our outlook on the controls which we think are necessary. However, I will try to keep as far as I may within your Ruling.
    As I was saying, it is for the reasons which have been described in Parliament, and which are known to many of us, that people have been forced to live in dilapidated, old urban centres where I am sure they have, unwillingly and often at high cost, been forced to form self-segregating groups. This is a poor basis for adjustment.
    In such groups, whether coloured or not, there has always been resentment against the world outside; and outside there has usually been a reaction of hostility. The formation of self-segregating groups is taking place in this country today. If this process is allowed to continue and develop, it will, at best, slow down the process of adjustment and, at worst, lead to the violent explosions of resentment of which Britain has had only a taste but which can be seen in the appalling communal clashes in the vastly

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    different and far more difficult situation in the United States. In the White Paper, the Government have deliberately avoided the issue of a national policy for tackling the worst housing problems of immigrants, and this is the point, Mr. Lever, that I was trying to make in describing these conditions.
    9.15 p.m.
    I believe that what is required is that the Government, basing themselves on the precedent of the developed areas, should designate certain areas of special housing need. Such an arrangement is recommended in the Milner Holland Report. They should, then, set up the machinery for tackling the housing problems of the various local authorities in the area, if necessary on a regional basis. For this task, they should be prepared to grant special assistance, as they do for development areas.
    And now I come to employment. What brought most Commonwealth immigrants to Britain? It was opportunities for employment—employment that would give them and their families a better future. Most immigrants achieve this objective soon after they arrive, and look forward to prospects of steady employment for years ahead. This, in itself, brings a sense of security. This is stage one, and its results are reassuring, but what about stage two? What about the prospects of getting ahead, of securing posts demanding higher skills and the exercise of responsibility? What about promotion, and access to training schemes? What about apprenticeships? What about—
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman must be guided by the principle I laid down for him. Of course I appreciate the relevance of what he says, and that is why passing reference is allowed to it, but it is relevant to the balance of payments and innumerable other subjects which cannot be examined in detail, and be in order, in this debate.
    Sir G. Sinclair: These are problems that I believe we should deal with now though I must not seek to deal with them any more in this debate. But, if we do not deal with them now, we shall be handing these employment problems on as a legacy of bitterness to our own children.
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    Finally, I would ask the Home Secretary to look again at what I can fairly describe as the miserable White Paper of last August. I would ask him to take far more effective measures to check widespread evasion of controls and to reduce the inflow of new arrivals. I would ask him to balance these measures by giving the country a positive and vigorous lead in the steps required to help the immigrants who are already here to take a full part in the life of Britain. In particular, I would ask him to give the local authorities and the voluntary bodies far more generous financial support to help them carry out a clear-cut national policy.
    Mr. Michael Foot: The right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) commented on the fact that hon. Members might have different views on the subject according to the number of immigrants they might have in their constituencies, and I understand the point. I come from a constituency which has very few Commonwealth immigrants, and I certainly do not have the knowledge of the problem of, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) who has spoken with such knowledge on the matter—and with such courage, in my belief—and to whom I look forward to hearing in this debate. Therefore, I cannot speak with close individual knowledge of the matter.
    However, I think that this is an issue on which all of us must give our views, or be prepared to give our views, whatever may be the particular situation in our own constituencies, because I believe that it affects not only the question of immigration to this country but the relationships of this country with Commonwealth countries and many other countries throughout the world.
    Moreover, although in my own constituency we have very few Commonwealth immigrants, it is a constituency that has absorbed many immigrants in the past. Some generations ago in my constituency in Ebbw Vale and Tredegar there were very bitter battles about Irish immigration. We ought to put these things into perspective. No one would say today that Irish immigration in that part of the world did not contribute to the welfare of our society there. The assimilation has taken place. It is a justifiable proposition that every wave of

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    immigration we have had into this country has benefited this country. The only people who can possibly protest against that proposition are the Celts who were driven into Wales, into Cornwall and into parts of Scotland. I do not see how we Anglo-Norman-Saxons can protest at that for what a lot of mongrels we are, including many on the Front Bench. [An HON. MEMBER: "Integrated?"] Some of them are not yet integrated, so far as I see.
    We should try to put the question of immigration into historical perspective. If we did that we might reach wiser conclusions. I do not think any hon. or right hon. Member on the benches opposite who has spoken can claim to have done so. Hon. Members opposite who have spoken in this debate have done so with consistent meanness. I dare say that a few other hon. Members opposite will speak in different tone because we have hear them speak before on this subject, but almost every speech made from the opposite side of the Committee today has been solely concerned about how to get the controls fiercer and tighter and to make sure that no one should slip through who is not entitled to slip through. Everything has been considered from that point of view.
    I have listened to the whole debate, but I do not think a single word has been said by hon. Members opposite about the injustice imposed on immigrants, whether they are immigrants already here or those who want to come here, by the operation of the Commonwealth Immigration Act, 1962. My view of that Act has not changed since 1962. When it was introduced I thought it a detestable Measure. It was one which I hoped we would get rid of as swiftly as possible. I said last year that I thought it a detestable Measure and I still think it a detestable Measure, in some ways even more detestable because of the further measures this Government have introduced.
    My first objection to the White Paper is that it is utterly disingenuous. For example, in paragraph 3 the Government talk about the reasons for the introduction of the original Measure and say that:
    "It was with even greater reluctance that control over immigration from the Commonwealth was introduced in 1962."
    That is supposed to be referring to the House of Commons and the country as a whole, but that is not what happened. Talk about rewriting history!
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    Everyone in this House at that time remembers what occurred over that Measure. Some of the most notable debates which have taken place since I have been a Member occurred at that time. The Labour Party bitterly attacked the Measure on moral grounds, economic grounds and every other ground. A most formidable attack on the whole idea and concept of the Measure was mounted by the Labour Opposition at that time. If the Government have changed their mind on the subject—as they have—it would be much better for them to try to explain why they have changed their mind than to say that it was with even greater reluctance that the Measure was introduced in 1962.
    The present Government were bitterly opposed to the Act. The present Opposition who introduced the Measure did not do so with such reluctance in 1962. Some of them may have shown some reluctance, but others eagerly wanted the Measure. Do not let us rewrite history and say that such was the case when it was not the case. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said quite honestly that he has changed his mind on the Measure. It would be much better for the Government to say that they have changed their minds, not only about the main Act but in recent months, and that it made them introduce the White Paper. They should explain the reason for the change.
    If they had done that, they would be in a stronger moral position. They might have been in a weaker argumentative position, because if they had tried to state the detailed facts upon which they have changed their minds the facts might not have stood up to analysis. The facts are not in the White Paper as to why they have changed their minds. The details are not there. As my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East has often remarked, the detailed facts on which the change of mind has taken place have never been given to us.
    Therefore, I think that the Government, particularly when they were dealing with such a sensitive matter as this, particularly when they were dealing with a matter in which the moral credit of the Labour Party was so deeply involved, should have gone into much greater detail as to why they have changed their mind.

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    They certainly should not try to pretend that they have not changed their mind, because all the world knows that they have.
    Part of my complaint against what the Government are doing is that by pretending that they have not changed their minds and by introducing such phrases as I have read they have encouraged a cynicism about the whole situation—and a dangerous cynicism, not merely about politics generally but in particular amongst immigrants. I do not think that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench yet fully understand how deep is the offence to multitudes of immigrants in this country at the introduction of this White Paper and how bitter is their feeling. Compliments are often paid to them for the service they do to our economy. Everybody knows that. It is very insulting to many of them to be told, "We do not mind you coming in, but we do not want many more, you know". That is what the White Paper said. Therefore, I hope that the Government will better understand what is the feeling throughout the country and in many sections of the Labour Party on this subject, particularly in view of what we said in the past. Therefore, when the Government on a matter of this nature decide to change their mind, they should say so much more openly.
    I come now to what I referred to earlier, what I thought was the meanness of the approach of many hon. Members opposite and some of the implications of the White Paper, too, in dealing with this subject. Hon. Members opposite spoke as if the sole question was how to ensure that the controls work. What about the effects on individuals? I quote one case tonight. I do not say that there are many cases like it, but I should have thought that there are quite a number. I could quote many other letters I have had dealing with individual cases. I quote this one because I happened to receive it this morning and because I think it illustrates the grievous individual injustices which are imposed by this Act and by the further operation of the White Paper as it has been applied by the Government already.
    I shall not give the name of the person concerned. When I have quoted the letter I will send it to the Government in the
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    hope that they will do something about this individual case. This case illustrates the whole situation. It is a letter from somebody in Kent:
    "My wife comes from Jamaica and her father died recently leaving her mother virtually destitute except for the small amount earned by a second daughter, unmarried, who has never left home. The only way to save my mother-in-law is for her to come here and live with us, and I have been battling for over six months to get her over here. I have established that my mother-in-law can gain entry to this country as a dependent relative, but obviously she cannot leave behind her other daughter who has always lived with her. This daughter has no one else to turn to and would be left entirely on her own if her mother came to this country. I think you can imagine the heartache and misery that this would cause. So I have been trying to get permisson for my sister-in-law to come to this country with her mother, and this is where officialdom has got me beaten. The British High Commission in Jamaica told my sister-in-law that she could not qualify as a dependent relative and would have to produce an employment voucher. So I then arranged for a firm to offer her employment and apply for a voucher on her behalf. Back came a reply saying that there would be a long delay, which is no help because with every week that passes my mother-in-law's situation becomes more difficult."
    He then wrote a letter, which was passed to the Ministry of Labour. I have the reply from the Ministry of Labour on this subject. It says:
    "Our letter of the 26th October, which you enclosed with your letter, was addressed to"—
    a certain firm—
    "who applied for the voucher for"—
    a certain person—
    "to whom they have offered employment. I am sure you will understand that in an application of this kind the employer is the principal and we cannot discuss the case with anyone else. I would remind you however that the application has not been rejected. All we have said is that because of the further restriction on immigration announced on 2nd August and the number of earlier applications already held, this application cannot be considered at present."
    9.30 p.m.
    That is the Government's policy in operation. I do not know whether any hon. Member would like to defend that process. I remember many of the protests against Russian behaviour that we had at one time because of their severance of families. We are engaged in it, too, and engaged in it on an extending scale. I would like to see the process reversed. The Home Secretary said three

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    out of four people coming in now are dependants. I hope that the Government will look at all cases of dependants with the utmost generosity and humanity, and I hope that they will so look at this case and all similar cases. It would be some mitigation of the offence caused by the White Paper.
    But that is not the major offence that the White Paper has caused. The reason why the White Paper is so bitterly detested by immigrants and those who uphold their cause is that it involves an element of colour discrimination. That is the fact of the matter. Members of the Government are in no position to counter this argument. The fact is that the form of control introduced by the White Paper means that the vast majority of the people affected by it are those who come from what is called the new Commonwealth.
    We are told in the first paragraph of the White Paper:
    "This policy has two aspects: one relating to control on the entry of immigrants so that it does not outrun Britain's capacity to absorb them."
    But that is not the basis on which the Government's Measure is drawn up. We can disprove their claim by citing the case of the Irish. If one says that one will draw up a White Paper based on how many people should be allowed into the country, one has to take into account the number of immigrants coming from Ireland. It is no good saying to me that I must not use that argument to prove that it is a colour Bill, because that is precisely the argument which was used by many of the spokesmen of the Labour Party Front Bench when the Measure was introduced.
    When the Commonwealth Immigration Act, 1962, was introduced one of the principal charges of the Labour Party against it was that it involved colour discrimination, and the way it was proved and driven home was by saying that if one wanted to remove the element of colour discrimination one must base it solely on principles and apply the Measure to the Irish. I am not for a moment arguing that we should apply it to the Irish, that we should stop Irish people coming into this country. That would be an utterly abhorrent thing to do. Particularly recalling the history of this country, it would be a great depriva-
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    tion to ourselves to stop Irishmen coming in, quite apart from the economic argument. But if it is overwhelmingly the case that we must not stop the Irish coming in because of these principles, the same argument applies to Commonwealth citizens. The logic of refusing to apply this abhorrent doctrine to stop the Irish coming into the country is that we must not stop Commonwealth citizens coming in. If we choose to say that we will stop Commonwealth citizens coming in, and everyone knows that the bulk of those who will be stopped are people with coloured skins, we must not be surprised if people say that we are applying a colour bar, and we must not be surprised particularly when that was precisely the charge the leaders of the Labour Party made against the Conservative Party when it introduced the Measure in 1962.
    I am bitterly opposed to any form of legislation, particularly legislation introduced by a Labour Government, which involves an element of colour bar. It is an appalling thing to have happened. I want to see us returning as swiftly as possible to a situation where we wipe away this stain on the reputation of the Labour movement.
    There have been some moves in a better direction, contrary to what has been said by hon. Members opposite. I greatly welcome the Government's decision about deportations. I am very glad that they are not proceeding with individual legislation to deal with this subject and that they now propose to examine the whole matter coolly and intelligently to try to draw up a humane method so that we shall take the arbitrary powers from the Home Office and ensure that Commonwealth citizens and foreigners are treated in a civilised manner in this respect.
    That is a departure from what was said in the White Paper, but, as I do not like the White Paper, I welcome the departure and I would have thought that every civilised person would rejoice in it. That is what I mean by the meanness of hon. Members opposite, because they have pounced on this not because of its humanity, but because, they say, it is a departure from the strictness of the controls. I welcome the concession and I accept it in the spirit in which I trust it is given.

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    I believe that it has been given because the Government have had second thoughts. They have listened to representations and they now wish to modify the policy which they introduced last August. I believe that the White Paper was not introduced after all the careful study we were told about, but in an almost hysterical frame of mind. I hope that the Government are now approaching the matter in a cooler spirit. The more they do so, the more they will return to the principles which the Labour Party enunciated in 1962. Do not let them forget that this Act which they are asking us to continue is itself a temporary Measure. Nobody said that we would have a permanent system of dealing with Commonwealth immigrants. Most people said that the Act was a grave departure from our traditions. I believe that it was a grave departure also from our Commonwealth traditions.
    I never expected to see the day when I would hear one of the greatest friends of this country, the former Prime Minister and the present Leader of the Opposition in Jamaica, Mr. Manley, one of the world's great Democratic Socialists, bittterly attack a Labour Government on this kind of subject almost as fiercely as he attacked the Conservative Government. I look forward to the day when men like him, who are this country's best friends in the world and the best friends of the Labour movement throughout the world, will be grateful because we have wiped this Measure from the Statute Book altogether.
    I do not say that it can be done immediately, although I would like to see it done immediately, and if it were the processes of integration would be stepped up. If we got rid of this Act, we would get quicker and not slower reaction on the other matters. But I hope that the Government will understand that many of us still regard the Commonwealth Immigrants Act as a detestable Measure and a temporary Measure and that some of us will go on fighting until we have restored the principles on which the Labour Party stood when the Act was introduced, principles based on an absolute respect for racial equality and the refusal to accept any form of racial discrimination.
    If we in this country, which is better qualified to say this than most others,
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    take our stand on that principle, so far from being afraid that what has happened in the United States or in Africa will spread here, we may be able to use our influence to extend civilised ideas of racial equality to those other continents. If we cannot solve the problem and if we cannot face the problem of racial integration, where can it be faced? Many of us regard what the Government have done as a painful and humiliating retreat from our best principles and we shall be working as best we can to see those principles re-established brightly in the future.
    Mr. John Farr: I hope that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) will forgive me if I do not comment too closely on his argument. Much of his phraseology when referring to what he called the meanness of hon. Members was not conducive to the right sort of spirit in which the debate should be conducted. I think that most hon. Members on this side of the Committee and quite a few hon. Members opposite are earnestly striving, regardless of party line or the colours of the skins of the immigrants, to solve this problem in the best way we know and sincerely.
    When one talks of the difference in the policies of the two parties there is not a great deal of difference in the policies of the two Front Benches at the moment. When we refer to immigrants we do not concern ourselves so much with the colour of their skins. Most of those with whom we are dealing happen to be black, but whether they are black or white, we must still face the severe overcrowding problems in schools and the accommodation difficulties which meet these newcomers to our country.
    In my constituency we have very few coloured immigrants indeed although we happen to be a large dormitory area for some of the biggest cities in the country. Occasionally it is possible that those who are not concerned, constituency-wise, with the day-to-day problem, can cast a fresh line of thought upon the subject. Sometimes, in other words, it is possible not to see the wood for the trees. Since the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, one has watched the door to Commonwealth immigration slowly closing. It began with the 1962 Act which gave the door a gentle push towards closure. The White Paper produced in August by the

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    Government gave the door a further push and made it more difficult for immigrants to enter the country.
    I believe most sincerely, and without any reference to the opinions held by my Front Bench, that it is our duty to advocate complete closure of this door until such time as those immigrants who are with us can be absorbed properly. I do not like to use the word "integrate"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not, what is wrong with it?"]—until they can be accepted within the limits of our society, so that they can live in the decency to which I think anyone who is a citizen of this country is entitled. Unless that course is taken we will fairly soon have a partial or almost complete breakdown of the social services in some parts of the country.
    Mr. Norman Buchan: I was wondering why the word "integration" was so offensive to the hon. Gentleman and, secondly, why he rejects our accusation of meanness, when his Front Bench speaker, the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) refers to "coloureds", and people coming in with three wives, and thirdly just when does he determine when people are integrated? I suspect that if it is left to Members opposite it would never happen.
    Mr. Farr: I am quite sure that the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity of speaking and giving his views. I merely refer to the fact that this legislation, of which we are considering the renewal, concerns coloured immigrants and what is the point of trying to hide the issue? Why not admit it? Several hon. Members opposite were a bit touchy when my right hon. Friend referred to the case of immigrants with more than one wife. I believe that my right hon. Friend was possibly referring to one or two instances which have been investigated recently, whereby this has been a method when people holding work permits here were able to get more than one wife in and more than one family of children.
    Mr. George Thomas: I think that it is very important to make it quite clear that we have no official knowledge at all that such a practice has been followed.
    Mr. Farr: I will continue with what I was saying about the conditions which
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    are developing in certain parts of the country already. Hon. Members may have read one of the Sunday newspapers, in which a correspondent talks about the very difficult conditions which are already being experienced in the Borough of Lambeth not far from here. This Press article described the intolerable conditions in which many thousands of immigrants were living in Lambeth.
    9.45 p.m.
    We in the House of Commons, whatever our party, have a duty to our constituents, black or white, who are already here, to make certain that they live in conditions which are worthy of people who live in this country before we allow thousands upon thousands more to come in annually, adding to the overcrowding, the squalor and the incredible conditions of horror in which many of them live today.
    When one is aware of these difficult conditions, which already exist in parts of the country, of the rate at which by natural regeneration our own indigenous population is expanding and aware, too, of the vast plans for redeployment of many aspects of industry—the coal mines, agriculture and commerce—which will require the provision of many more new jobs for those who become redundant, one must surely realise that the day has come for the flow of immigrants to be halted. In closing this door, we would have nothing whatever of which to be ashamed.
    Since the war, when we were faced with a stupendous problem of catering for our own needs after the crippling days of 1939 to 1945, what other country with a population comparable to ours has accepted a million immigrants from the Commonwealth? Probably some hon. Members, on both sides, would prefer an uninterrupted or fairly strong flow of immigrants to continue because they are rightly concerned with the conditions in which many members of our coloured Commonwealth live, particularly in some of the Caribbean countries, where they live in extreme poverty. Even when they come here, however, many of them continue to live in conditions of similar squalor and filth.
    I believe that our best course of action is not to allow tens of thousands of immigrants to come here but rather that

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    through the Department of Overseas Development we should channel real assistance in cash and technical aid to some of those countries, perhaps especially in the Caribbean area, to help them to establish new industries in their home territories, to give them work at home, which is what they would all prefer, instead of coming to this country and to our strange climate. We should make a real effort to provide work and jobs for them in their own homeland.
    It appears to be a point of amusement to certain hon. Members opposite that I make this suggestion, but I was in Jamaica and the Caribbean area a year ago with a delegation. We were fortunate enough to go round to a number of factories which had been established by British capital in Jamaica. We visited, for example, a cigarette factory employing several hundred people, a china factory and quite a number of other recently-established factories around the city of Kingston—
    The Chairman: It is in order for the hon. Gentleman to refer to these matters, but I do not think that he can develop them on this occasion.
    Mr. Farr: I beg your pardon, Sir Samuel. I was pointing out that all the coloured people in Jamaica to whom I spoke and a good many whom I met in this country would prefer to work at home, just as we in this country would prefer to remain in our own homeland. It is only because they have to go abroad to work that they come to this country in the first place. I was going to suggest that possibly it would be of great interest to the Committee to learn what projects the Minister of Overseas Development has for stimulating the export of capital in this way.
    I should like to summarise what I believe the Government's course should be. First, I believe that the door which has been steadily closing since 1962 should be shut today until such time as those who are here can be assimilated and permitted to live in decent conditions. It is a duty which we owe to all those who are already here to make the conditions such that we should be proud to speak of them.
    Secondly, I understand that it has been estimated that, even if the door were
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    closed to work permit holders, many hundreds of thousands of dependants would still be permitted to enter the country under the existing regulations. I see the Joint Under-Secretary of State nodding his head. The figure which I have heard, although I have no substantiation of it, is that about 500,000 relatives would be entitled to enter this country. But whatever the figure, I believe that the time has come when immigrants' relatives and dependants should be far more strictly controlled.
    In the interest of those who are already here as well as of those who are to come, there should be no question of a man bringing with him more than his wife and dependent children under 16. A firm indication should be given to an immigrant who wanted to bring a relative with him that if he wished to live with his mother, grandmother, wife's aunt or whoever else is dependent on him that would be more than this country could absorb and that he and his family should go back to the country from which they originated. An unmarried immigrant who is already here should either go home to marry or marry a girl who is here, but he should not be permitted to import a person for that purpose.
    Voluntary repatriation of immigrants should be encouraged and our powers of deportation should be strengthened. I believe most sincerely that if this warning is not heeded by Her Majesty's Government today we shall all wish in five years' time that in 1965 sincere and firm action had been taken to close the door.
    Dr. Shirley Summerskill: The Committee has been concerned mainly with the general principles of the Act. I should like to refer specifically to the part of Section 2 which deals with the power of an immigration officer to refuse permission to a person to come into this country on the advice of a medical inspector or a duly qualified medical practioner if he is suffering from a mental disorder or if it is, as the Act says,
    "otherwise undesirable for medical reasons that he should be admitted".
    I feel that that is a fallacious attempt to reduce the disease that we find among immigrants, because it has been conclusively shown that disease among immigrants is mainly contracted after they have arrived and is not brought by them to this country. They are more likely to

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    contract disease because they are living in overcrowded conditions and tend to keep together, as do any immigrants when they first arrive.
    It is estimated that 50 per cent. of the immigrants in Bradford who have tuberculosis have contracted it here. I have particular knowledge of that, because there is an overflow of tubercular patients from Bradford hospitals into the hospitals of my own constituency of Halifax.
    The solution to the problem lies not in opposing their entry, as the Act does, but in the Government White Paper which lays down extremely good proposals for limiting the disease that might arise among immigrants once they have arrived here.
    Then the question arises, what is the principle for repatriating certain immigrants after a health check on arrival in this country? Why are they sent home from the port of arrival if they are found to have a disease? Is it to safeguard the public from Commonwealth diseases which are supposed to be imported? Surely that can be done by treating them straight away in Britain when they arrive.
    If they are sent home, will they necessarily be treated when they get there, because many of the countries from which they come have completely inadequate medical services? Are we sending them home to avoid undue stress being laid on our National Health Service? I doubt that, considering that it is only a very small proportion of immigrants who are repatriated on grounds of disease, and I am sure that our National Health Service of which we boast can easily take in the extra people who present themselves with a disease when they arrive here.
    Great power is vested in the immigration officers and in one doctor only to refuse admission to immigrants. He does not have to be a specially qualified doctor, He can be either a medical inspector or one general practitioner. There is no word in the Act as to how extensive the examination is supposed to be, and it is quire clear that in the average conditions of an airport or seaport the medical examination must be extremely limited and very hasty. We know, for example, that. London Airport has only one X-ray machine, or it did until recently, and there are certainly not X-ray facilities at
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    all our air and seaports. It is a purely arbitrary decision, therefore, on the part of the immigration officer and on the advice of one doctor whether someone should be allowed entry or sent home.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: In making that last point, is the hon. Lady suggesting that because of the inadequate facilities and the rushed examination, people who are ill get through, or that people who are not ill but who are supposed officially to be ill are refused admission?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am trying to illustrate that the Act is inconsistent and that people who are ill are getting through, whereas the Act is designed to prevent them getting through. It is not being carried out as it should be, assuming that one accepts that the Act is a good one in these circumstances.
    Further, it makes no attempt to decide what diseases are to be refused admission and what diseases are to be accepted into the country. For instance, it states specifically that anyone suffering from a mental disorder can be refused admission. That is an extremely vague term, and the general practitioner who sees these people is not even a qualified psychiatrist. Mental disorder can range from the mild to the very severe, from the curable to the incurable, and it is wrong that this sort of condition should be diagnosed—
    It being Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
    Committee report Progress.

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    Ordered,
    That the Proceedings on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Grey.]

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
  Again considered in Committee.
  Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule.
  Dr. Summerskill: As I was saying, mental diseases can range from the mild to the severe, and it is impossible for them to be diagnosed hastily at an airport or seaport.

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  Secondly, a person can be refused admission on the ground that
  "it is undesirable for medical reasons that he should be admitted."
  Here again the wording is completely vague. What are medical reasons? Where does one draw the line between medical reasons which might mean a severe case of T.B., and at the other extreme a mild early case of T.B. If somebody is all at the port, apparently he can be refused admission, but if the disease is diagnosed three days later when he has reached, say, Halifax, he is allowed to stay in the country and be treated.
  Some diseases are curable, and some are completely incurable. Some are contagious, and some are not. There is nothing in the Act to say which diseases mean a person is refused entry and which mean he may be permitted to enter. Where does one draw the line between somebody who might he crippled with arthritis, and is therefore presumably incapable of doing a full day's work and helping our economy, and somebody who may have leukaemia or some other disabling type of disease?
  What is the extent of the health check which is to be given under this Act? As I have said, until recently there was only one X-ray apparatus at London Airport. This was used only if the doctor in charge advised its use and if he thought there was a possible case of T.B. There is no certain way of telling whether a person has T.B. unless he is X-rayed. The fact that there was no compulsory chest X-ray meant that the machine was almost useless, and that the majority of diseases went through undetected.
  In my view this part of the Bill is impossible to enforce properly and it results in the majority of the work that should be done at the port being done by general practitioners and local authorities when the immigrants reach their towns. It is far more difficult to track down the cases of T.B. that have got through once the immigrants are living in their homes and mixing with the community. It is much easier to pick them out when they come into the country.
  What is the solution? In my view this part of the Act should be completely deleted. Nobody who arrives in this
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  country as an immigrant and who suffers from any illness should be sent home. It seems an inhuman way to carry on the practice of medicine, which should know no boundaries of geography or nationality. Most of the countries from which these immigrants come have formerly been under British control for many years, and if their medical facilities are inadequate we have a certain moral responsibility to treat the people coming from them.
  As an immediate step and an alternative to this part of the Act I suggest that the Minister of Health should make it compulsory for every immigrant to have a full health examination at the port of entry, together with a compulsory chest X-ray. I cannot understand why the Government are so hesitant about introducing this procedure. They seem to think that it is an insult to an immigrant to say that he must have a health check and an X-ray. They seem to think that it is something to be regarded as undesirable, whereas it is for the immigrant's benefit.
  The Minister of Health has asked general practitioners to look out for disease among immigrants. How can a busy family doctor keep an eye on every immigrant on his list, and keep a check on them all? This should have been done when the immigrant came into the country. As well as compulsory chest X-rays when immigrants arrive, annual X-rays should be carried out in the towns where they are living. At the airports there should not just be one general practitioner but a team of doctors, with facilities for full medical examination.
  If anybody is found to be suffering from a disease, whether it be varicose veins, chickenpox or something more severe, such as venereal disease or tuberculosis, he should be treated straight away, and if he refuses treatment it should be made compulsory. This should apply to mental as well as physical illness. Surely our National Health Service should be able to cope with these people, instead of weakly turning them away at the port of entry.
  Those are the short-term measures which I suggest should take the place of this part of the Act. The long-term aim should be to extend our National Health Service so that it is a service for the Commonwealth as a whole and not just for

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  Britain. We should help these countries to develop their own medical services. When we do that we can implement that part of the Government White Paper which recommends that these medical tests should be carried out in the countries of origin. Obviously this can be done only when the countries of origin have the necessary facilities. At the moment they have not.
  The Government can start on this by making a survey of requirements in Commonwealth countries to a far greater extent than Lord Mountbatten's Commission did, in order to assist them financially and materially, as well as with personnel. I am in favour of sending our doctors to those countries and of their doctors coming to this country, so that we have an exchange system between the Commonwealth and Britain. Immigrant doctors usually return to their countries of origin later on.
  I have attempted to illustrate the inhumanity of allowing immigrants to come here from their homes and then sending them back for a reason for which they are not responsible, namely, ill health. In a 3peech reported yesterday, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) advocated the repatriation of immigrants whom he vaguely labelled as unassimilable. Some of us may consider that he is unassimilable on his own Front Bench—but he has a part to play, like the rest of us. It seems wrong that people of whom I speak should he declared by this Act to be unassimilable through no fault of their own. This part of the Act is inhuman and illiberal.
  Mr. David Steel: I cannot, I regret, follow the hon. Lady the Member for Halifax (Dr. Summerskill) into her useful but specialised discussion of health checks for immigrants. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) said that he did not have many Commonwealth immigrants in this constituency. I have to say the same about mine. Moreover, the point was recently made about my party that it is very easy for the members of the Liberal Party to take a stand against the Government on the issue of immigration, because neither I nor any of my hon. or right hon. Friends repre-
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  sent constituencies where this is a serious problem.
  This is a legitimate argument, but I would point out that at my party conference this year over 1,000 delegates and candidates from constituencies all over the country, including areas where this is a problem, came out unanimously against the Government's proposals. In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), who claims that his cold is worse than mine, I should like to put our views this evening on this proposal.
  The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale berated the Government for having changed their minds about the Act of 1962. If that is all they have done, there would not be so much to oppose, but they have, of course, gone much further than simply changing their minds. They are now advocating a system of much tighter controls than was laid down in the 1962 Act. When the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) commented that the gulf between him and some of the members of the Conservative Party remained as wide as it had ever been, because every time the Labour Party moved towards the stand taken by the Conservative Party, the Conservative Party then retreated, it seemed to me that he did not follow up the logic of this observation—that it is highly dangerous for him and other members of the Labour Party to move towards, and in fact to exceed, the demands which were previously made by the Conservative Party.
  There are two respects in which the Government's proposals are more illiberal than those previously made. One of the reasons that the members of the Liberal Party were opposed to the Bill when it was before the House in 1961 was the powers it gave to the Home Secretary to empower immigration officers to refuse entry with no right of appeal. But the Government's White Paper wanted to extend this to the power to deport immigrants who are already here and who would not be here for more than six months—again without trial, without charge and without reference to any appropriate tribunal.
  In the debate in November, 1961, my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North, asked a question which was not

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  answered at the time and I should be grateful if it could be answered by this Government. He asked if it was not a fact that:
  "… during the war there were aliens tribunals, staffed by lawyers of considerable experience, who decided precisely this question of whether an immigration officer was justified in refusing entry to an alien? If it was possible to operate that during the very difficult period of war time, why is it impossible to do it with Commonwealth immigrants now?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1961; Vol. 649, c. 703.]
  I would suggest that an answer might be given to this question, without resort to the explanation that a committee has been appointed to look into the matter.
  Indeed, I am surprised that the Government have not been prepared to take fairly immediate action on this, since the present two Law Officers of the Crown were strongly opposed to this aspect of the 1962 Act. The present Attorney-General described the failure to provide for a system of appeal as "an outrageous refusal of an elementary right". The present Solicitor-General said of the Act that it was an extreme case of putting the individual at the absolute mercy of the official without redress or appeal. I presume that they still hold to those views.
  10.15 p.m.
  I understand that the Minister of Labour will intervene later. I suggest that it might be useful in the issuing of vouchers under the existing Act if Ministry of Labour officials were located in the countries of origin and be empowered to issue vouchers. At present some Commonwealth countries are experiencing delays of up to six months on the issuing of vouchers.
  We cannot go into detail on the social programme which the Government wish to implement to ensure the integration of Commonwealth immigrants, but I agree with the suggestion of the hon. Lady the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams) that immigrants should be met by people who are conversant in their languages at the points of entry. This is done successfully by the Netherlands Government and it is very much needed here.
  To give an example, when I came back recently in an aeroplane from Hong
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  Kong there were in the 'plane a few immigrants. They passed through immigration control—as they had work permits; I understand that they were coming here to work in a Chinese restaurant—as quickly as I passed through Customs. However, when they got to the outer hall of the airport they did not know what to do next. They had the address and telephone number of their prospective employer but they had no idea how to use the S.T.D. dialling system. They were not helped by the fact that half the telephones were out of order. It is sometimes difficult for us to use telephones, particularly when many of them are out of order, so it must be doubly difficult for newcomers.
  This is the sort of small problem which may seem trivial to us but which is a serious obstacle to someone arriving here and finding himself even unable to get in touch with his prospective employer. It would be a simple matter for, say, welfare officers to assist these people.
  Mr. Buck: I have great sympathy with the point the hon. Gentleman is making, but, without going into the matter in detail, would he not agree that there might be a case for saying that people given labour permits to come here should have a basic knowledge of the English language; that is, before being given their vouchers?
  Mr. Steel: There was no lack of knowledge of English in the case I have described. I defy anyone to read and understand the instructions for using an S.T.D. coin box if that person is not over-familiar with the English telephone system. For many people born in this country the instructions are difficult enough.
  The second criticism which my party has of the Government is their statement in paragraph 15 of the White Paper:
  "It has … been decided that, with effect from 2nd August … vouchers shall be 8,500 per year. …"
  It goes on to say that 1,000 of those vouchers will be reserved for the Maltese, who appear now to be moving into a privileged category, almost akin to that of aliens. That means that for the rest of the Commonwealth the figure will be 7,500 per year. The paragraph merely states:
  "It has … been decided …".

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  On what basis has it been decided that this is to be the magic figure? Is this the figure which was recommended in the Mountbatten Report? One can only assume that, as the Mountbatten Report has not been published, this is not the figure which it recommended—otherwise why was it not used as the basis of the Government's decision? Was the decision taken on grounds of economics? I suggest that this cannot be the reason because we find in the National Plan a forecast that we will be 200,000 workers short by 1970. We also find in the speech which the First Secretary made last March in Sheffield these words:
  "It is absolutely mad, at a time when our labour force is allegedly over-used and when ou- new force is going to rise but slightly, that we should be talking about limiting the number of people who can be used. This country needs new people coming in to share in the work as much as we have ever needed it."
  It therefore seems that the arguments in favour of the figure of 7,500 are not economic arguments.
  Moreover, if we look at the breakdown of the number of immigrants coming to this country last year to work, we find that the number who came in on vouchers as Commonwealth immigrants was quite a small proportion of the total. There were 47,000 work permits granted to aliens in 1964. Registrations for National Insurance of citizens of the Irish Republic amounted to 39,000. The number of Commonwealth immigrants coming in on vouchers was only 14,000. That figure of 7,500 cannot, therefore, have been arrived at by considering the economic needs of the country.
  What, then, was the basis? Was it that our educational system was strained; that in certain areas we could not assimilate the children of immigrants because of language difficulties, and so on? We are told that a survey of the schools is to be made. That presumably means that the survey has not yet been made, so there is no basis on which to found such an assumption. We know that in certain schools there are problems, but the education arguments cannot have been the reason for deciding on a figure of 7,500.
  Was it shortage of housing? If so, how does it make sense that B vouchers are no longer being given to immigrants who have qualifications in the building trade when our own building industry is
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  facing difficulties because there are not enough people or materials to extend the housebuilding programme? If the cause were shortage of housing, one would have thought that B vouchers would continue to be issued to those with qualifications in the building trade.
  If it is not housing that has determined this figure, is it that the Government have decided that Britain is incapable of integrating a large number of Commonwealth immigrants'? This could be one explanation, but it would, for me at any rate, be a very unplatable explanation. If that were the reason, it would put us in this country in no position to attack the policies of Dr. Verwoerd or, for that matter, of Mr. Ian Smith. Yet it seemed to me that the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) came near to saying that this was the basis of his argument that it is impossible to integrate these people when he said that Commonwealth immigrants should be treated on much the same basis as aliens. If this were the basis of the Government's decision, it would foreshadow the end of any meaning to the Commonwealth, and I cannot think how the Conservative Party, as the party of the Commonwealth, could accept such a conclusion. We must therefore reject the idea that the Government have decided that it is impossible to integrate more Commonwealth immigrants into our community.
  Are we, then, left with the unpleasant thought that the reason for arriving at this very tight figure is a Labour Government worried by a narrow majority and by the undoubted success of the exploitation of racial prejudice by a small minority in the Conservative Party in marginal seats? Is this the real reason for the Labour Party suddenly arriving at this very narrow figure? I would hope not, but it is very difficult for those of us who are wondering where this figure of 7,500 came from to come to any other conclusion.
  The Government have to make a choice between principle and expediency. It is a choice that very often confronts political parties, and it is not an easy one. But we have now reached the position in which, if we give approval to the Government's policy, Parliament will be approving a situation in which, last year, more Spaniards—7,800—came to work in this country than will be allowed in future

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  to come from the whole of the Commonwealth. The arguments about dependants astound me. I should have thought that dependants today would be the productive workers tomorrow. I cannot understand the long argument about dependants that we have heard in this debate.
  If we accept the figure of 7,500 we shall be accepting a situation in which South Africa will have benefited by leaving the Commonwealth because last year 520 work permits were given to citizens of South Africa, which is more than those to be given to any other Commonwealth country in terms of vouchers if the Government policy is to be implemented These are very serious outcomes of the Government's policy. Before the House tonight approves the continuation of the control the Government have over immigration, we should have some clear answer on how the figure of 7,500 was arrived at.
  Mr. George Thomas: I have followed with very deep interest and concern every speech that has been made in this debate, not least the speech of the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel). He asked a lot of questions and gave a lot of answers. There was a question mark after his answers, of course, but on one of the questions I think I am able to give him satisfaction. On behalf of his hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), whose cold we hope will soon be better, he asked about the functions of officers of wartime tribunals. The hon. Member should tell his hon. Friend that those wartime appeal tribunals were dealing with aliens who were interned, not with those who have been refused admission. Therefore his argument on that question ceases to have the same effect.
  No one in this House can approach the subject of immigration completely without emotion, or if he can he is a stone. We are dealing with the question of people who are seeking entrance to our shores and we are mindful also of people who have already come to live among us. My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), in a moving speech if I may say so without his feeling that I am patronising because I am going to disagree with some of the things he said, said that we must stand for absolute respect for racial equality. I
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  want to assure the Committee, and I can assure the Committee, that that is just what we stand for. I hope to bring supporting arguments as I develop my case.
  There was only one speech, and I might as well get that referred to at once, which I thought went beyond the bounds of understanding. I am sorry to refer in this way to the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr), but some of his references to the subjects who have come to live among us will, I believe, disturb him when he reads HANSARD tomorrow morning. Our main aim on both sides of the Committee and in all quarters of the House must be to establish the maximum good will between those who have come to live among us and those who are the indigenous population. We all have responsibility also—I refer to it in passing—to help in the outstanding work of integration which has begun on a considerable scale by people voluntarily taking their part in towns and cities throughout the land under the guidance of my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.
  10.30 p.m.
  Why are we seeking the reintroduction of the Measure? First, my hon. Friends will remember that at the last General Election we told the electorate that we would continue this Measure and these controls as long as we thought it was necessary. In this regard, we are fulfilling completely what we told the public. Of course, there are other Measures which have come since. We have the White Paper, part of which we are discussing along with the Measure. Why is it that we have thought it necessary to have the White Paper and also our proposals for dealing constructively with the question of immigration? First, I turn to the question of education. Everyone will realise that Her Majesty's Government have a major responsibility in this field for ensuring that those who come in are really treated on an equal basis, that equality of opportunity is given real meaning. The head teachers of the London county authority were reported in The Teacher, the organ of the National Union of Teachers—if I may be allowed that little "commercial" for the union to which I have the honour to belong—on 15th October to have issued a memorandum calling for classes of 15 in schools

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  where three-quarters of the children are immigrants, 20 where the balance is even, 25 in schools with a 40 per cent. immigrant population and 30 where the numbers meet the Department of Education's suggested limit of 30.
  We must bear in mind the interests of people who are seeking to come into our land and work, and their dependants, if they are to be given a fair chance, will have to have far more attention than we have been able to give to the indigenous children. Naturally, when little ones go to a school and cannot speak the language and the first 18 months to two years has to be spent in teaching them the language, there is a special problem for everyone concerned. I could support this by referring to Circular 7/65 issued by the Department of Education and Science.
  But there are some people, I know, who have felt agitated because of the recommendation that 30 per cent. in the school ought to be the fair target. There is no question at all of taking any child from the school to which he is going, not so far as we are concerned. But, of course, this could lead, if no caution is exercised, to all-immigrant schools. We also have to bear in mind the realities of life. Whatever we say and do here, if 80 per cent. of the little ones in a class do not speak English, then the parents of the other 20 per cent. will be agitated as any one of us would be about our little ones if they had to be held back for the teacher to do justice to himself and help the little ones get on.
  Mr. Freeson: My hon. Friend referred to the circular which made certain recommendations for national policy for immigrants living in larger numbers than elsewhere. Is he aware that the vast majority of immigrant children in this country are English-speaking? Could we have some clarification as to whether that circular and my hon. Friend are referring to non-English-speaking children? What is meant by the Ministry when it talks about immigrant children? Nobody yet has had a clear answer on this.
  Mr. Thomas: I hope my hon. Friend realises that when we talk in this context we are not making up a situation which does not eixst. There is no joy for us in creating a situation which is not there.
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  I have already quoted what the teaching profession is saying in this regard, and I hope that he is not going to advance the argument that there is nothing in this state of extreme difficulty which faces teachers and local authorities. In that circular the Secretary of State for Education and Science made constructive proposals on how to get additional help for the schools—I will refer to the cost later—so that we might he able to give a better chance for the little ones who are concerned.
  The right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) asked who would pay for all this. At least, that was what it came to by the time the question reached over here. The right hon. Gentleman said that it would cost a lot of money. When local authorities have to employ extra teachers, as they do in these areas, when they can get them, then at least 60 per cent. of the teachers' salaries is found by the Government.
  There are 7 million children in our schools today, 2 million of them in oversized classes. If not another soul came into our land from tonight, there would be another million little ones knocking at the doors of our schools within five years and in the next five years there would be another million. That is an additional two million children pressing for admission to our schools where already two out of every seven are in oversized classes. We are looking under stones for teachers [Laughter.] We are making massive appeals for teachers to return to the schools. Some of my hon. Friends are laughing at my metaphor, but I have been here long enough for hon. Members to understand my metaphors. I want the Committee to realise—and I am sure that it does—that in education there is a state of crisis where his problem is especially emphasised and exaggerated.
  Nobody blames those Commonwealth kinsfolk of ours for gathering together in given communities. I come from a people who were scattered in the days of the depression and I know how the Welsh gathered together in Slough and Birmingham and London, and we formed our Welsh communities wherever we went. But by the very fact that so many of these folk come in with an inadequate knowledge of our language—and, despite what my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) says, a

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  great many are unable to speak a word of English—they are dependent on other members of their circle who can speak English, and so they gather together.
  Mr. J. T. Price: I have great sympathy with what my hon. Friend is saying and on which he has been challenged. I do not have the honour to represent Bradford in Yorkshire and I have looked around the Chamber to see whether any hon. Member for Bradford is present. If any of them were here they would tell my hon. Friend that practically all the Pakistanis coming to Bradford—and vast numbers of them are working there—cannot speak English. According to the reports coming to me, the problem in Bradford is terrible. If they were here, the Bradford Members would be able to substantiate what my hon. Friend is saying.
  Mr. Thomas: I mention this fact only to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that the social services in given areas are under enormous strain and those who carry the local responsibility given to them by Parliament are seeking help from Parliament. I will give an illustration from one city which is receiving great numbers of Commonwealth immigrants. I was told by the director of education that 300 children a month were coming to his area, which meant that he needed a new school and ten teachers every month. Of course he does not get the schools and he does not get the teachers.
  It is no good closing our eyes to the fact that unless the Government are prepared to take action, we could create the very thing which all of us are anxious to avoid. I am positive that, regardless of politics, the one thing which we all want to avoid is the clash of races in this little land. Therefore, it is unjust to assume that we do not approach this matter with the same acceptance of the brotherhood of man and the same acceptance of respect for the human personality. But, having to carry responsibility, we have been obliged to take the steps which we have taken.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Gentleman speaks with great personal knowledge of education which is one of the most difficult aspects of the problem. Can he say how many courses are now run-
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  ning for training teachers to teach English as a foreign language?
  Mr. Thomas: Many local authorities are running their own courses to help the teachers. We hope that in 1966 arrangements can be made for a full-time course for immigrant teachers, to help those who are qualified and who come here but cannot speak our language.
  We have weekend courses for our own teachers. The Department of Education and Science and the local authorities are making first-class efforts in this direction. I would like to pay my tribute to the teachers who serve in these areas for the way in which they go the extra mile on our behalf.
  10.45 p.m.
  I turn to the question of health checks. My hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Dr. Summerskill) is herself a doctor and we listened with very great respect to what she said. None of us likes the thought of turning away a person from our shores because they are sick. I confess, I tell the Committee, that if I had the responsibility I could not, I would not, do it. But someone has to do this for us and the doctors are the people who have to face up to this.
  Mr. Thomas: Immigration has not created serious health hazards, but it is sad to note that amongst those who come to us, a much higher proportion of these people suffer ill health due to the conditions under which they live. I ask those who object to any reduction of numbers to bear in mind these figures relating to tuberculosis notification rates in Birmingham, for 1960 to 1962; Pakistanis 18·2, Indians 4·5, Irish 2·1, West Indians 1·3, and ourselves, an indigenous population as a whole, 68.
  Medical opinion is that the high incidence owes much to the overcrowded conditions under which these poor creatures live.
  Mr. Buchan: I have been following the argument with great interest and I am wondering if my hon. Friend can also give the figure for the number of ward-maids, nurse and doctors of Indian, Pakistani and West Indian origin who keep our over-stretched hospital service from collapsing.
  Mr. Thomas: I am going to do all that before I sit down. My hon. Friend

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  must not assume that I am not aware of the great debt that we owe to those who are amongst us. I am aware of it of course. I have paid a public tribute north, south, east and west to the debt that we owe to those who have come to live among us. But I am talking of a situation that now exists and I am giving statistics which my hon. Friend cannot afford to ignore.
  Dr. M. S. Miller Dr. M. S. Miller (Glasgow, Kelvingrove) rose—
  Mr. Thomas: Let me pursue the argument, or my right hon. Friend will never speak.
  Dr. David Kerr: Can by hon. Friend answer a question? He has quoted figures showing a very large range of notification rates as between Indians, Pakistanis and so on, and he suggested that overcrowding is a significant factor. Could he say whether this indicates a very significant difference in the overcrowding rates as it affects these different communities?
  Mr. Thomas: What I am advised is that medical opinion is that these high incidences, and I quote, "are caused as much by overcrowding as by disease brought in."
  Dr. Miller Dr. Miller rose—
  Mr. Thomas: No, I am not giving way, not for the moment at least. I am advancing this as a serious argument. if it is a question of compassion, of respect for human personality, of respect for the rights of man, are we not also to face the reality that we are already experiencing severe difficulties that challenge the Health Service which is at full stretch, so that my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax appeals to the House to consider ways in which we can deal with the situation?
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  I want to refer to one other matter—financial assistance to local authorities. The Government make their contributions to local authorities in many ways. The general grant takes into account extra expenditure by local authorities. But we hope that powers will be taken when Parliamentary time permits—possibly during the coming Session—which will case the pressure on the social services in those areas that are carrying special burdens.
  Before resuming my seat may I say that we have heard some hard words in the course of the evening about the Home Office. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I often wonder how some of those who are so harsh in what they have to say about the Home Office would deal with these problems if they were at the Home Office. Do they think that we approach our work by abandoning all the principles that we have ever had? Do they think that when we get inside the Home Office—[Interruption.] I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East will catch the eye of the Chair. It is about time that some of my hon. Friends realised that there are as much principle, compassion and care on this Front Bench as there are on the back benches, and that we are mindful that when we turn to this question of the folk who are coming among us we cannot avoid facing up to the responsibilities that the local authorities bring to our attention week in and week out.
  I believe that what we are doing for integration, what we hope to do in the Race Relations Act and what we hope to do throughout the length and breadth of this land by the complete integration of those who have come amongst us, will be worthy not only of this great movement to which we belong but of the proud history of our people in these islands.
  Mr. Goodhart: If I may continue the non-controversial tone of the Under-Secretary, I should like to tell the Committee that during the past weekend I was driving down a main road in Wiltshire, where I had the misfortune to drive along behind a somewhat dilapidated car which put out its traffic indicator to the left, and then, at a crossroads, did a half-turn to the right and stalled in the middle of the crossroads. I must say that as I went past this car I expected to see it driven by the present authors of the Government's Commonwealth immigration policy.
  The hon. Member for Manchester, Exchange (Mr. Will Griffiths), when speaking on the last Amendment to this Bill, said that the debate on aliens control had followed very much the pattern that had gone before in earlier years—for the last 15 years. No one could make such an accusation about this evening's debate.
  Two years ago, when a similar Amendment was moved from this side of the Committee by the then Leader of the Opposition, now Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman made two points. He said that the present system of control would be replaced by measures agreed and negotiated with the Commonwealth. He devoted most, if not all, of his speech to that point. When the Home Secretary spoke this afternoon, he made not one reference to that point. As today's debate has proceeded, there have been two references to the Mountbatten mission. They have been the only two references to Commonwealth co-operation, which was once the central issue of these debates.
  The other point made by the Prime Minister when speaking on the occasion to which I have referred concerned integration, a point which has been touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) and particularly by the hon. Member for Birmingham. Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). They drew attention to the need for greater help. particularly in housing and education, a matter on which the Joint Under-Secretary has tonight spent a great deal of time.
  For a long time during the hon. Gentleman's speech, I thought that extra help would be offered to the areas which are in special difficulty. Certainly, that appeared to be the tenor of his speech.
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  In fact, however, we got no further than the remarks contained in paragraph 43 of the White Paper, which states:
  "The Department of Education and Science is prepared to increase the teacher quota in areas where special staffing arrangements are required in schools with a high proportion of immigrants. Though this may not be of much help in areas which are already seriously short of teachers …"
  As the Joint Under-Secretary knows full well, it is precisely in the areas where there is a heavy concentration of immigrants that there is a particular shortage of teachers, and yet this evening we got no further than this sparse paragraph.
  On housing, to which the hon. Gentleman made fairly scant reference, again we got no further than paragraph 35 of the White Paper, which states, in rather Micawberish terms, that
  "The solution must lie in a determined attack on the housing shortage generally".
  We find, therefore, that every vestige of the main planks of the Prime Minister's speech of two years ago, when the present Government party occupied the benches on this side during a similar debate, has disappeared. What has appeared is an attempt to check the increase in the number of Commonwealth immigrants coming into the country, which, as the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) pointed out so forcefully, is a considerable change of ground.
  11.0 p.m.
  The A certificates have been limited to 8,500, although I note that if the numbers of A certificates and B certificates are taken up in full, as I presume they will be under the much more restricted numbers that will now be issued, and if the numbers of dependants are similar to those that have emerged from the initial survey taken under paragraph 19 of the White Paper, the dependants even of that limited number of voucher holders will not be far short of the 30,000 dependants who entered the country last year.
  However, with the increased limitation on the number of A vouchers, it seems to be certain that the manner in which the certificates are issued will be called increasingly into question and will become a matter of increasing importance. I would ask the Minister of Labour, not necessarily when he comes to reply

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  tonight but in future, to look at the suggestion that has been made by the Bow Group that A certificates should not be just issued but should be put up for purchase by those companies which are seeking immigrants from abroad. The money from the sale of vouchers would help to underwrite the cost of the immigration service and, at the same time, it would ensure that only those firms that had the greatest need for immigrants got them.
  A number of speakers, notably my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) have referred to category B. My right hon. Friend forcefully pointed out the inconsistency of encouraging large numbers of doctors and nurses:0 go to the Commonwealth at a time when we are draining from the new Commonwealth so many in the same category. In my own constituency, in which there are three hospitals, 42 out of the 180 nurses come from the Commonwealth, and I would like to pay tribute to the work that they do. But it is an odd way in which to help the new countries of the Commonwealth which, as the hon. Member for Halifax (Dr. Summerskill) pointed out a few moments ago, need help in creating their own satisfactory hospital arrangements, to drain out so many of their nurses and doctors.
  In dealing with category B immigrants, here at least there is a great role for Commonweatlh co-operation. Category B vouchers should be issued only where there is an agreement with the host country. Commonwealth co-operation seems to have largely disappeared from he lips of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I hope that in this rather limited field we can look for a comeback in the future.
  During the last 18 months the whole pattern of immigration to this country has changed, and now it is the dependants and those who are as it were fringe dependants make up the bulk of the number, and this, as the Joint Under-Secretary of State knows, is increasing the pressure on the schools.
  In February the Home Secretary told us that there was going to be a tightening up and a toughening up of the policy of immigration for this group; that in fact the controls would be stiffened in some respects, and that greater efforts would be made to see that the control was effective,
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  but it seems to me that the system as it now stands cannot bear much extra pressure and that we might have to look anew at the whole system of immigration control.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) gave the overall figures for those entering this country. He told us that every year 15 million to 16 million people pass through immigration control at the ports and airports of this country. Of these, 4 million are aliens, and last year 406,000 of them were Commonwealth immigrants. To cope with this vast flood of people we have a staff of 492 immigration officers. I do not believe that it will be physically possible for them to deal with this problem under the present system for much longer, particularly if a greater measure of control is asked for from them.
  Let us consider the position at London airport, which I visited recently with the hon. Gentleman. About 5 million people pass through the airport every year, and of these about 1½ million are aliens and about 278,000 are Commonwealth immigrants. To cope with this flood of individuals we have 158 immigration officers, including the chief immigration officers and all those who deal with the administration of this matter. Thus, when there is a rush, it is virtually impossible for them to give more than a cursory glance at those who come through. Indeed, London airport is not the place at which one wishes to turn back those who do not fit in with the rules that have been laid down.
  Last year, 900 Commonwealth immigrants were turned back after they had reached this country. Since the Home Secretary's remarks in February and the change in the rules, that rate has now gone up to about 1,500 in a full year. Yet, as we know, within this figure there is an element of human tragedy for those who come from far afield. A 12-year-old boy from Pakistan was turned back. What happens to him when he arrives back in Karachi? This is not the place where humane control can easily be exerted, because to take immigrants all the way to London Airport and then reject them is to get the worst of all worlds.
  Therefore, I believe that if we are to continue to exercise a system of control with a wide degree of discretion and

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  instead one in which the controls inevitably get tighter and tighter, we must take the controls away from our ports and, particularly, our airports, into the countries of origin. This was implied by the Home Secretary himself, when he agreed in February that the number of immigration officers overseas should be substantially increased. It is only by having the immigration officers overseas that there can be control in the countries of origin.
  However, since February, only six immigration officers of the 492 have gone overseas, and of those one has returned. So the result is that 1 per cent. of the immigration control force has been moved overseas in the last eight months. I believe that we should radically change this system, that far more immigration officers should be recruited and that far more of them should be stationed overseas. It is only in that way that we can maintain effective controls without attracting large numbers of people to London Airport and to our ports, and then sending them back on a fruitless, tragic journey of thousands of miles.
  Therefore, I hope—but do not expect—that in the next few months we shall see a drastic reshaping of our immigration officer policy. I do not believe that these men—hard-working, industrious men of great integrity—can, under the present system, stand the extra burdens which will inevitably be thrust upon them. Perhaps this will need some modification in legislation. But legislation in this respect is something of which this Government seem to be notably chary. We heard from the Home Secretary the importance of the Committee which they are setting up to study the whole subject of appeals against immigration officers' decisions and appeal by those who are about to be deported.
  Of course, there is a good deal in the White Paper and in their proposals which they admit will need legislation.
  11.15 p.m.
  The White Paper states in paragraph 23:
  "The Government propose to seek a general power to impose conditions on the admission of any Commonwealth citizen who is subject to control".
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  Again, in paragraph 24 we find:
  "The Government propose to seek power for an immigration officer to include among the conditions on which a particular Commonwealth citizen is admitted one requiring him to register with the police".
  This has nothing to do with the Committee which is now being set up. The Government say that these powers are important, yet there is no proposal for legislation this Session. The reason for that lack of proposed legislation is perfectly plain; that on this subject of immigration control the party opposite is fundamentally and basically split.
  Mr. Paul B. Rose: The warmth of the acclamation for the Government's White Paper by the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) is a sure warning to my hon. and right hon. Friends of the sort of strange bedfellows we are likely to have. The right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) is one who would pose the debate on immigration as a discussion taking place between those who, on the one hand, advocate an open-door policy and those who, on the other, want to control the flow, at least in relation to the numbers. However, this is not the real issue and so long as this travesty of the real issue is allowed to confuse and cloud the argument, so long will it be impossible to discuss a rational and all-embracing immigration policy.
  That the need for a rational policy is the issue is illustrated by some of the figures which I have been able to extract, partly from questioning the Home Office and partly from other similarly reliable sources. According to the Economist Intelligence Unit, the figure of our population of Indian, Pakistan and West Indian origin is now 759,000, or 1·4 per cent. of the population. Yet since the war, according to the Home Office, we have also had 336,000 persons of European nationality settling in this country, not including minors and those who have acquired British nationality through marriage.
  No figures are available for the Republic of Ireland, but the control of immigration statistics issued under the Act show that 44,637 people were admitted to our shores last year. Similarly, 13,888 vouchers were issued to white Commonwealth countries, and we have heard from the right hon. Member for Monmouth about the large-scale evasion that has

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  gone on, particularly from the white Commonwealth. A total of 37,496 labour permits were issued to European workers and this year the number, after nine months, was 35,345.
  Analysing these figures, two things emerge in regard to European migrants. First, perhaps one-quarter of those permit holders from Europe actually settled in this country and, secondly, the figure is increasing at a time when we are talking about limiting Commonwealth immigration. At the same time, we are imposing a quota of 15 per cent. maximum for any individual Commonwealth country in regard to A vouchers—and this is obviously intended to deal with countries which are what has been called the coloured Commonwealth rather than the white Commonwealth.
  I make no apology for this differentiation because this is a fundamental debate and it is no secret that many of the people who most warmly advocated the Act in the first place were at the same time advocating the adhesion of this country to the Treaty of Rome, which would have allowed for the free coming in of labour from European countries. This is the crunch because these people see things differently when it comes to citizens from our Commonwealth.
  And here we come to the real roots of the problem because, free from the pious protestations and the hypocritical cant, this debate is not about the control of immigration but about colour prejudice and discrimination against coloured Commonwealth citizens. It is for this reason that when we fix the numbers of Commonwealth immigrants allowed into this country, we are really fixing those numbers not on any scientific criteria in regard to the rate of absorption into this island, but, rather, on other criteria.
  How do we arrive at this figure of 7,500 in the first place? Does this figure stand up to any rational analysis? What economic and social surveys have been undertaken to arrive at such a figure? I believe that this is an arbitrary number which was intended to placate the racialist bigots, on the one side, whilst not offending liberal sentiment too harshly on the other. I am sure that it will not placate liberal sentiment, particularly having regard to the treatment of the 1618 year olds, and the arbitrary powers
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  of deportation likely to be given to the Home Secretary. Whether or not we accept my hon. Friend's remark, and I do accept it, about compassion, it is right to say that in the past the Home Office has not exactly been the repository of human kindness.
  The racialists in this country will not be placated; all they will do will be to step up their campaign of hate. One cannot argue statistics with criminal psychopaths, and to pander to the idiosyncrasies of these people with their paranoidic delusions is completely wrong. The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. JohnStevas) put this point in one of the most courageous statements made in this House since the inception of this Government and Parliament. He said that there was a Dutch auction in illiberalism, and in a Dutch auction in illiberalism this side of the Committee will never win.
  My contention is that an immigration policy has to be based, not on a negative reaction to only one small section of the immigrants or upon colour, but upon three basic principles. It has to be based, first, upon our own labour needs, and I am hoping to hear from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour exactly how many people we need to make our National Plan work. Some say an additional 200,000 are needed. I am willing to accept that this number may not be too correct, and I should like to know what the figure really is.
  Secondly, there are the social problems. It would be foolish of anybody to deny, and nobody on this side would deny, the confusion and difficulties that arise in parts of our cities because of an influx of people into a very different environment. But there is always a transitional period, a period of change, in which immigrants from whatever part of the world they may come are absorbed as a new group into the life of society generally.
  Above all, the problem is a housing problem; one of houses and services, and I hope to show this later. I would only comment now that immigrants are also busy producing homes, and I believe that it is right to say that they are producing more homes than they are living in. They are keeping many of our services going. Our National Health Service would collapse without them. I join with those

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  who pay tribute to the doctors and nurses from the Commonwealth. Many of us in a personal sense have reason to be thankful to them.
  Thirdly, I believe that we have also to consider the economic and political status of the countries from which immigration comes. There is a strong argument here for discrimination, and the discrimination should be in favour of those countries which, historically, have a special economic relationship with this country; where we have failed at a time of rapid industrialisation in our own country to industrialise in those countries. Therefore, if there is to be discrimination at all, it should be in favour of countries like Eire and the West Indies, and other countries with high rates of unemployment.
  That is why I agree with what was said by the right hon. Member for Monmouth about A and B vouchers, because principally this is a selfish act on our part. I believe that the arguments advanced in the past with regard to the Republic of Eire have always been spurious. If we really wanted to stop evasion we might start by tackling one problem that has not yet been mentioned, and that is the issuing of National Insurance cards. I came across a case only last week where seamen who had deserted their ships were working in Salford almost as semi-slaves for unscrupulous employers who had managed to obtain National Insurance cards for them. This might be a very useful way of checking it.
  The argument in regard to the Republic of Ireland does not apply. The fact that hon. Members have said in the past that we cannot deal with the Republic because we cannot control people coming from it is not a fair argument. The fair and honest argument which should be put forward is that we have a special responsibility to the Republic of Ireland, the West Indies, Mauritius and other countries which we allowed to stagnate while our economy was being industrialised. This is something which we should face honestly. I was much impressed by the arguments of an Irish organisation which said:
  "The colour bar is the essence of the White Paper policy, but it would be a pitiable thing if we were to camouflage this on the
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  basis that two wrongs made a right—by making the Irish the scapegoat, although the Irish economy has been moulded by Britain no less than that of Jamaica. It is surely the starting point of a rational, and indeed a Socialist, immigration policy that those countries whose economic life has been moulded by British policy should have the first right of ingress."
  Instead we seem intent on standing this principle on its head by stopping those who should have the right of ingress. This is a basic criticism of the White Paper. It is clearly dictated by the politics of colour played by some of the lunatic fringe among hon. Members opposite. Those people have not been slow to appeal to the more primitive and more uninformed sections of their electorate and albeit small, but very vocal, minorities. Those who have played that game in the past in Nazi Germany learned at their own cost what forces of evil and bestiality they could unleash by pandering to the disease of racialism.
  I call on my right hon. and learned Friend to stand firm in face of those people who because of personal insecurity or inadequacy or who have ambitions in politics, are willing to use this method of inflammatory racialist material and propaganda and who have to be stopped. Already violence and arson have been spread by these people in this country and they are strutting around again as they did in the thirties. We have to deal with these firmly if we are to accept some of the things we are asked to accept in this Bill. I should like to see the Race Relations Act used to deal with this menace.
  I should also like it to be extended to the field of housing because it is there that action should be taken if we are to get down to the problem of integration and if we mean what we say when we talk about compassion. If hon. Members opposite mean what they say about integration, we have to deal with this problem of housing. For this reason I should like to extend the Act not only to housing but in order to get down to positive proposals for integration. Discrimination undoubtedly exists in other fields, but above all in housing, and action has to be taken if we are to get rid of this colour problem.
  We have to face the fact that colour remains. This is why we get statements, sometimes from our own Government Front Bench, about "immigrant children" when they mean children of immigrants.

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  There is a grave danger that instead of becoming assimilated—as has been the case with other immigrant communities in the past—because of their colour, despite their assimilation in language, customs and employment, we may be creating ghettoes in twilight areas in our cities. Much discussion has gone on about restriction of entry, but we should think more positively about integration into the community.
  11.30 p.m.
  The Institute of Race Relations recently conducted a survey in Birmingham and London and its findings could be the starting point for some positive action. Then we would find out who are sincere people in the House of Commons concerning integration and who are playing on this issue for political motives.
  Immigrants have financial problems and have to get cheap rented accommodation. The supply of this sort of accommodation is decreasing in the city areas. Many landlords will not take in coloured tenants and the immigrants are forced, therefore, into a situation where they have to club together in order to purchase property. Usually they end up by buying decaying Victorian buildings that still exist in our cities, with the help of loans and mortgages at high interest rates. The only way of paying for these is by letting premises or sub-letting premises and taking in lodgers.
  For 11 years during which the last Government were in office and before trey saw fit to bring in that Commonwealth Immigrants Act, they did not do anything to facilitate absorption of tie immigrants. Having created the problem, having brought in the immigrants because this would stimulate our economy—and it has benefited—the Conservatives have turned round and used the immigrants as scapegoats for their own failure in dealing with the Lousing problem. I believe we now have to get down to the task of seeing that the immigrants get out of the ghettoes.
  Mention has been made by the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) of the Dutch
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  action in allocating a percentage of housing for immigrants. The time has gone when we could have used this creditable method. A great deal could be done by the local authorities, through a points system, in the allocation of houses to see that immigrants do not start with a built-in disadvantage as at present.
  Far more use could be made of the social services to explain the intricacies of house purchase and of putting names down for council houses. The Race Relations Act should be extended to deal with those nauseating people, estate agents, who protest their opposition to colour prejudice but refuse to sell houses to coloured people on new estates, or established estates, for so-called commercial reasons. Building societies also are not likely to favour immigrants.
  One of the things we could do, which was suggested in an excellent pamphlet by that Bow Group, is to pay more attention to housing associations of a multiracial character. In the United States, particularly, housing associations of this kind have been able to break down some of the ethnic barriers.
  There have been other articles based on rational surveys of the problem in various part of the country. One, in particular, by John Rex, the sociologist, appeared in New Society. He alleged that the Birmingham City Council had shown it was willing to hold up development plans rather than accept responsibility for rehousing immigrants. The same allegation was made on 22nd October this year in the Observer in relation to Deptford, which, it was was alleged, had skirted the area so as to avoid housing any immigrant family.
  It is wrong to advocate better treatment for immigrants than for our own people. Heaven knows, some of our own people have endured the slums for their whole lifetime, but, as immigrants help the national economy, why should not the nation help those councils who have acted as hosts to the immigrant community, such as Manchester, to deal with their particular problem?
  This is why I should like to see special help channelled to those areas where there is a high concentration of immigrants so that they can be aided with their housing

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  problem. I believe we have to do something to smash the ghettoes that are growing up in our cities. I believe also that one of the ways was pointed out by an interesting article by a Mr. John Barr who posed new towns as anti-ghettoes in the sense that many of the developing communities would be admirably suited to welcoming immigrants. He wrote:
  "The results would benefit not only the immigrant but also the new towns. The towns are still malleable, but since they are so self-contained they could in time become tight and insular communities. New non-English faces would be a good thing. So would fewer faces in these concentrations of coloured people in some areas of London."
  I believe that, as was said in the Bow Group pamphlet, in the long term an end to the housing shortage would go a considerable way to removing the principal social pressure on immigrant families. Meantime we must take action to bring immigrants in every way into the general life of the community instead of treating them as so many hon. Members have done, as a phenomenon distinct and apart. I believe that only prejudice on our side and possibly resentment on the other stand in the way, and by yielding to prejudice, as many hon. Members feel that the Government have done, we do not help to break down those attitudes and the prejudice and resentment that exist. We need, above all, education and propaganda, and where necessary, I might say to my right hon. and learned Friend, the force of law. A whole new philosophy has to be developed with regard to immigration by planning according to our economic and labour needs, according to the social difficulties involved, and planning also in connection with our moral obligation to those territories whose economies are geared to ours.
  So immigration is a challenge to us all. If we can overcome prejudice and build a humane and rational society here based on tolerance and mutual respect, I believe we shall have enhanced authority in the world. We shall be able to say to Mr. Ian Smith not "Do as I say" but "Do as I do". If we fail, I believe that we shall have failed the test of a really enlightened society. I believe that in the long run we shall not fail. I draw strength from the fact that the cotton workers of Lancashire were willing to starve rather than support the Confederate
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  States in the American Civil War, that there is a great spring of idealism in the country which can be tapped, as opposed to the prejudices of racialism. The ideas that inspired the churches, chapels and the Labour movement in Lancashire are still alive. One Smethwick does not make a summer for the purveyors of racial hatred. We on this side of the Committee should show ourselves ready to fight for what is right and what is principle.
  I believe that if these issues were put to the people honestly, not as the choice posed by hon. Members opposite over numbers or the open door or the closed door—for that is not the choice—but as a moderate policy of controlled immigration based on a rational appraisal of our social and economic needs and not based on colour, I believe that the people would understand and reject a policy based on colour and accept the policy of controlled immigration based on reason.
  Mr. A. R. Wise: The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) has just delivered a wholehearted assault on his Government's efforts to extend the operation of the 1962 immigration Act, following, of course, the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), who started this attack in one of his always very entertaining but gloriously irrelevant speeches, to which I listened with enormous pleasure. I think that the Home Secretary need not be afraid. His lunatic fringe will never vote against him. His zealots below the Gangway will never vote against him. So he can rest unworried. I do not apologise for detaining the House at a rather late hour because last year I had the pleasure of starting the debate on the renewal of the Act. From there we have made quite satisfactory progress although not as much as I would have liked.
  I did not think then, when I listened to the admirable speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary that 12 months later we would not have had a Bill. The White Paper is something, but we really should have had a Bill by now. Events have pushed the Government steadily on what I consider to be the right path. I only hope that they will be pushed a little faster in the future. They have no fears about their future if they proceed with a proper Bill for the control of immigration as it

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  should be controlled. I am happy to say that we have had from the Government benches a singular freedom from the platitudes which came from their opponents who used the usual platitude about integration. People seem to think that all you have to say is, let us integrate somebody and the problem is solved. It is not as simple as that.
  During the discussion on the Race Relations Act representations were made, probably quite rightly, by the Jewish community who wanted to be included as racial group. In other words, integration is not complete even for them and the first Jewish immigrants started to arrive 30 years ago. Integration is not a thing which comes overnight.
  Mr. Heffer: Does the hon. Gentleman understand that integration is not assimilation?
  Mr. Wise: I would prefer to turn it up in a dictionary. It does not seem in the sense in which it is used for immigrants to be very different.
  It has to be remembered that there are certain number of immigrant communities who do not wish to be integrated. There are Pakistanis in my constituency whom I know well who have no desire to be integrated. They want to remain Pakistanis. They think that their community and their customs and their religion are better than ours.
  Dr. Miller: Integration means being one part of the whole. Assimilation means becoming exactly like the community in which one is situated.
  Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: Does it not imply, to a certain extent, inter-marriage?
  Mr. Wise: I think that it does, but I am not sure that these communities are in any way prepared to accept it. It may by possible, but the time is not yet and it will take a very long time. The Government realise, quite rightly, that they have to do something practical in the interval.
  We have, if I may use a platitude myself, an overcrowded island and it is getting daily more overcrowded. Curiously enough, there is talk about a shortage of labour. It is really a shortage of machines because we are not using our labour properly and I think that the
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  Minister of Labour will agree. If we had used our labour properly and paid the full rate for the job in the past few years there would not have been this incessant demand for immigrants. Now we can see the problems which arise from being lazy about getting the full benefits of a modern age. I hope that the Bill will come soon and will contain the principles which I trust are in the Government's mind.
  11.45 p.m.
  The suggestion that immigration permits should be put out in the country of origin has much to be said for it, but I am not at all sure that the countries of origin would be prepared to allow that to happen and, of course, the Indian Government, for instance, could perfectly well stop the putting of British immigration officers at Indian ports. More questions need to be answered than are now being answered. The arbitrary quota which we are enforcing has much to be said for it, again as a temporary measure, but it is an arbitrary quota and hon. Members must accept that. More research needs to be done. In itself, the quota will not avoid the major problems which are occurring with immigrants.
  It has first to be shown that the immigrant has a job to go to. That is quite sound and proper, but we have to go further than that. We should be assured that he has a decent dwelling to accommodate him when he comes here. That is not an impossible thing to look for. As it now happens, when immigrants come here they have nowhere particular to go and they get into these rabbit warrens where they pay grossly exaggerated rents for a single room. Nothing can be done about it, because the local authority knows perfectly well that if it enforces the provisions of the overcrowding legislation of 1937 and turns out these people, it will have to rehouse them and there will then be absolute hell to pay in the area because of the new immigrants jumping the housing queue over the heads of people waiting for houses. It is hardly surprising that local authorities are prepared to turn away and allow this to go on.
  Dr. David Kerr: Would the hon. Gentleman explain where these houses are to come from, from housing associations, or private enterprise, or local

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  councils which, he said, would be in great difficulty about providing them?
  Mr. Wise: That is a problem for Her Majesty's Government who, after all, are responsible for or getting the houses built. A point which I did not intend to make, because it is a party point, is that we are already falling short of the housing target, so that it will be very difficult to fulfil this condition and we shall be falling more and more short of that target as the years go by.
  The next consideration is that the immigrants must be going to an area where there is education accommodation for their children, if any. We cannot continue with the problem which is to be found in Birmingham where there is constant trouble because there are so many immigrant children in a given school. The Joint Under-Secretary read a very sound statement on this very matter by a professional body. After all, we are directing industry and labour to various places in the interests of the economy, and it seems perfectly reasonable to tell each immigrant that if he wants to come here he should be going to a place where his children can be properly educated without putting an undue strain on the education services. That may require an alteration in the schools programme—although I do not see why it should—but, in any case, that, again, fortunately, is a headache for Her Majesty's Government and not for Her Majesty's Opposition.
  There was a proposal that we should allow people in only as vacancies occurred because of people going out, but I do not think that that is practicable. There is a certain attraction about the idea, because it would keep numbers fairly stable and enable us to solve the important administrative problems before getting down to a final policy on immigration. These problems have to be solved before we can have a final sensible policy. We must see that the immigrant population is dispersed a bit so that the new immigrants do not go on adding to the rabbit warrens which already exist. As it is, as they come in they gravitate, naturally, to those places and they make the situation worse than it was before. We have to do some really serious work on the administrative side.
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  We have a large number of dependants awaiting arrival in this country. It seems that we might very well check immigration until we have these dependants over. These people have the first claim to join their families here. I think that the definition of dependant is fairly narrow and can be maintained in justice. It has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. JohnStevas), that it is inhuman is separate families and not to let them in. I think that is perfectly true. It is perfectly easy, with new immigrants, to find out from them, before they arrive, how many dependants they propose to bring. Having done that we know where we are on the question of dependants and the amount of immigrants that we are going to let in. These things are essential for an intelligent and coherent policy.
  I firmly believe that the Government, having started on the right path, may well, I hope before this time next year, come forward with a Bill giving a coherent immigration policy which I will support with the greatest pleasure in the world.
  Mr. Laurence Pavitt: It is rather apt that I should follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) who started last year's debate, because I finished it then. I think that it is the only time since I have been in the House of Commons that I have ever had the pleasure of having the complete agreement of both sides when I started my speech, at five minutes to one o'clock by saying that I was reluctant to detain the Committee. I received a cheer from both sides, equally reluctant to be detained. Having listened to the hon. Member for Rugby, I feel that he proved once again the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). I had hoped that I would be able to follow the hon. Member for Chelmsford who is likely to make a more humanitarian approach from hon. Members opposite. But all that the hon. Member for Rugby suggested to Her Majesty's Government on the question of controls was obnoxious and merely sought ways and means of making even worse some of the present provisions of this Act.
  I have the honour to be one of the team which opposed this Act in 1962. I notice that I spoke on Second Reading,

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  Third Reading, and 13 times on the Committee stage. Those 13 times were unlucky because I did not succeed in defeating the Government of that day. I remember the events which led to that Act, the pressure of two hon. Members opposite in particular, one of whom is no longer a Member of this House, which forced the Government into the situation of bringing this Act before the House in 1961.
  When the party which I serve decided that it was going to oppose the Act it did so after a good deal of deliberation and against public opinion in the country. The hon. Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) suggested that it was time that somebody gave a lead to public opinion. I can remember the lead that was given at that time because when we were discussing our opposition to the Act, the Gallup Poll showed that the general opinion of people was in favour of restricting immigration, and in favour of a certain amount of colour bar and racialism. To its credit, my party decided to defy the Gallup Poll and we fought a very vigorous campaign on the Floor of this Committee. At the end of the day public opinion had changed, partly due to the good leadership given by the late Hugh Gaitskell, who fought this tooth and nail from the Front Bench opposite, and partly from the way in which the public was educated as a result of the debate.
  The party opposite has no differences with us in trying to solve the very real problem. The difference that occurs at the moment is whether this is the right method for doing so. I would contend, as I contended in debate last year, that this Act, far from helping, actually hinders the problem we face in the constituencies. I want to assure my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, for whom I have a high regard and about whose sincerity I would defer to no man in this House, that we realise that there are very real problems, and it is because we have tackled them for a long time that we are concerned that we should tackle them in the right way.
  I first met this problem long before I was a Member of this House. It was in 1958 when I was a founder member of the integration committee of Willesden. I came into the House 18 months later,
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  and I am delighted that, six years later, the chairman of that integration committee, who at that time was an alderman and leader of the Willesden Borough Council, is also a Member of the House. I refer to my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson).
  We made a tremendous step forward, to get coloured people from different parts of the Commonwealth who came into the constituency sitting jointly with those who were already resident in the area, and others, tackling at the grass roots the problem that we were facing. I again pay tribute to the leadership shown by my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East, in the practical job of sending two people, one coloured and one white, to conciliate between the parties when there were signs of an eruption breaking out, and so damp down what could have been another Notting Hill in Willesden.
  I remember that last year my right hon. and learned Friend the present Home Secretary, in his case for continuing for 12 months what some of us accepted with reluctance, put forward three things which would happen in the ensuing year and which would, it was hoped, make it unnecessary to bring forward the Act this year. The first was the introduction of the Race Relations Bill into the House. The second was Commonwealth action. The third was that there should be overseas development activities which would help us to solve the problem at this end of the pipeline.
  The first point has come to fruition. We got the Race Relations Bill—not quite so strongly as one would have liked it to be; nevertheless, it is on the Statute Book and it is now illegal to have discrimination on racial grounds. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development has done a tremendous job in a short time at her end of the scale, and so I believe the Home Secretary has fulfilled that part of the bargain.
  I would, however, quarrel with the second point that he made because we have failed lamentably over the whole question of getting the right kind of Commonwealth action to make this a Commonwealth combined operation. During the Second Reading of the Bill in 1961, when the then Government claimed that they had managed to get

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  co-ordination and co-operation from the Commonwealth, Sir Grantley Adams was sitting in the Gallery and, as the claim was made from the Government Front Bench, Sir Grantley Adams shook his head. The Commonwealth was not consulted; it was informed. What we had hoped would happen this year was that the Commonwealth would be brought into this problem as a Commonwealth problem, and that there would be a combined operation by the various countries concerned, as well as by us, in order to find ways and means of surmounting the problem.
  I would have been dealing with this subject earlier had I been called, because I am particularly concerned with one of the few failures of the Government, namely in appointing the Mountbatten Mission in the form in which it was appointed. The Government must have known that Lord Mountbatten was persona non grata in Pakistan, and so he was off on the wrong foot in that part of the world. During the Recess I talked to the Chief Commonwealth Immigration Officer, who shall be nameless, of another country which was visited by this mission. From what I was told, it was more than useless, and it was a waste of time for the mission to make the journey and talk to that particular country.
  12 m.
  I was hoping that we would have the kind of mission that would have some understanding of the situation, not one that viewed the problem from the establishment point of view—what ought to be done for the poor coolies in the Commonwealth countries where the sun happens to be rather hot—but one that sought to do something constructive, such as the setting up of a joint working party, with joint operations. I was hoping that it would be not just an item on the agenda when Commonwealth Prime Ministers get together, but the kind of structural machinery that would be needed to give effect to this. This has not yet happened, but I hope that our discussion of the last eight hours may lead my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government to think again about ways and means in this direction. I feel certain that they have not yet exhausted all the possibilities that could be found if they had the will to do so.
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  My main opposition to the Act is because its effect on integration is disastrous. The kind of committee on which we have been working in my constituency and in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East was shattered when the White Paper was issued. Good people, immigrants, who had been doing a job of work there were saying that they must now form their own racial groups because they could not get protection from the kind of action which has been taking place in the Government. That could be disastrous.
  The real problems have been mentioned on all sides and we have to tackle them. Much has been made of the education problem, and it weighs heavily upon the teaching profession. I had great pride only two weeks ago to share a platform with Sir Learie Constantine. We were at a school, which happened to be on the other side of the road in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East, which has 55 per cent. immigrants.
  Mr. Freeson: It is now 60 per cent.
  Mr. Pavitt: The figure is now 60 per cent., I am told. It was an inspiration. The head boy was coloured. The school was working on a staff ratio a little better than the rest of the locality but still not up to the standard that my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary would like.
  There was a determination to overcome the problems, and they were being overcome. That is the kind of approach we would like to see, not the restriction of controls, but facing the reality of the situation. Whatever restrictions there may be in Willesden will not solve the problem of integration. Our immigrants are already there.
  I should like to tell my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that with the Park Royal factory estate, the whole of the North Circular Road area and the factories all around, it does not matter what kind of restrictions are imposed. While the jobs are there, the people will be there; and while people are there, there will be problems of housing and all the social problems arising from an area like mine which was built up before this century.
  The Government are making a large contribution outside the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. The whole range of

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  regional development and redeployment of industry will help my constituency considerably when it gets to work. It is not working at present. No sooner does a factory in my area transfer to Swansea than another firm takes over, and when the new firm takes over, more workers are needed to build machines. As long as that happens, the problem remains.
  It has been rightly said of my constituency that the greatest problem is housing. We have had housing problems for the last thirty years. My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary will be interested to know that analysis of the advertisements to find how many said "No coloureds" showed that at least two said "No Welsh". We had a large influx of Welsh after 1926, and in 1939 we had a large influx of Irish. At the 1961 census there were 9,100 Commonwealth immigrants and 9,400 other immigrants, mostly Irish. They are welcome in my constituency, because the houses that we want are often built by the Irish who are there.
  I would say this to my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale who made a relevant speech and went to the crux of the problem, in spite of the comment of the hon. Member for Rugby. This is what we do not like about the Act. We are not seeking planned control to deal with or organise the problems, but against a colour bar which is basically written into the Act. It always will be written into it as long as the door is open for those who have a white skin but closed to those who happen to have a black skin.
  The situation has been aggravated by the White Paper because, like my hon. Friends who have made protest and like the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel), I cannot see what logic there is in the figure shown In the White Paper, or where it emerged from. I can see no logical fact which points to it being the right figure.
  I consider that the problem has to be solved on the basis of the best way to deal with the people when they are here. I am a member of the Central Middlesex Hospital Committee, where we have 828 nurses, 278 of whom are from the Commonwealth. The hospital service in my area would have to close its wards but for those people. But we do not want to
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  patronise them and say that they come in by our leave. I have been appalled by the speeches of some hon. Gentlemen opposite, in which the main consideration has been: "My lot first, and then, if you can be fitted in and can give us some kind of service, you are welcome." We have heard from them no suggestion of treating these people, who are members of the Commonwealth, in the same way that we would expect to treat members of the Commonwealth who are born in our country.
  The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles wondered if there is some point of electoral advantage which has led to the change of attitude on the Government Front Bench. Certainly there has been a change of attitude. We accept that. But I would say to the hon. Gentleman that from my point of view at least there is no question of electoral advantage.
  I fought the last election on this issue because my opponent made it the main objective in his election manifesto. In the case of my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East the situation was aggravated further by the fact that he is a well-known figure in the Jewish community, and not only was the Commonwealth immigration question hurled at him, but the whole subject of racial discrimination.
  During the whole of the campaign I did not address a single meeting without having to say why I was one of the team which opposed the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962. I was able to say that I still opposed it, and my canvassers were instructed to say that I supported Labour Party policy. As a result, I increased my majority by 3,200, and in the Willesden, East constituency my hon. Friend was able to win the seat from the sitting Conservative Member. The electoral advantage cancels itself out.
  We are up against the fact that there has been and always is in all of us a measure of prejudice. In the kind of pressures that have developed, that prejudice has been allowed over a short period of time to outrun the voice of reason.
  At the end of the debate last year, I gave a qualified assent to putting this Measure on the Statute Book for another year, in the hope that it would never be

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  necessary again. In the final words of the debate, I said:
  "I hope that the result of the debate will be constructive and that we will see a new approach and a different solution to a real problem."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1964; Vol. 702, c. 396.]
  I say again to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench that it is not good enough to come back with a rather stale way of dealing with what is a real, an important and a most fundamental question.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) has said, we are in the situation that in the present generation and the next one we have to solve the problem of a multiracial world. If we cannot do it under a Labour Government, I see little hope of our giving a lead to the peoples of the world, the people of Rhodesia, of Africa, of Asia and of the West Indies, on how best to establish an integrated society. irrespective of race, colour or creed.
  It is because I am hopeful that my right hon. and hon. Friends will have second thoughts about their proposals in the White Paper so that we can go forward with fresh ideas on these very urgent problems that I am prepared once again to say, "Yes". But I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends not to press us to do it again for a further year.
  Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: It must be a point of congratulation to us all that we are still here, nearly eight hours after the discussion was opened so auspiciously by my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft). I think it is a testament to the importance of this debate that so many hon. Members are waiting here at this late hour, and I must thank the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt), and the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) for their gracious references to myself. The least that I can do is to repay them in equal currency and congratulate them both on notable contributions to the debate.
  I was extremely interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). It was described by my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) as irrelevant, and I think that strictly speaking that is correct, but no blame for its irrelevancy rests on the hon.
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  Member for Ebbw Vale, because he has remained consistent to his principles, and he has had the mortifying experience of seeing the leadership and the bulk of his party move on and leave him alone on his rock of principle. [Interruption.] Very well; he is alone on his rock of oratory, and it was a relief to us on this side of the Committee that his Dantonesque oratory was directed not against us, but against his own leaders in a kind of dialogue about what constituted fundamental Labour principles into which I feel it would be impertinent of me to venture.
  We are, and should be, grateful for the restraint which has been shown in this debate, particularly so because this is a problem which, if it is to be solved, must be solved by reason rather than by emotion. But, if we are to be reasonable about it, we must get it into proportion, and one feature of the debate which I very much regret was the injection into the debate earlier on by the Home Secretary, who unfortunately has now gone home to Hampstead.
  Mr. George Thomas: The Home Secretary has been here all day, and he has gone out for a glass of water.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am delighted that the Home Secretary is refreshing himself so abstemiously and therefore setting an example to us all, but I would rather that he had been here to answer this point, because if I recall it rightly—I do not wish to do him an injustice—I think that it was he who injected into the debate the rather speculative figure of 500,000 dependants waiting to come to this country. From where did the Home Secretary get that figure? Is it based on any research? Is it based on evidence? Or has it been conjured out of the rarified atmosphere of the Home Office?
  The first time I heard that sort of figure mentioned in this House was when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, who crept in a little earlier and has since crept out again, no doubt to get a glass of water, produced a similar figure. It is precisely that sort of figure which distorts the whole discussion because it implants in people's minds fears which are not justified. If one looks at this over the long term, the probability is that the number of dependants entering this country will go down rather than up, particularly because the number of vouchers has been cut down drastically.

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  I think that most hon. Members would be agreed on the principle of control. I think most would agree that this should be strict, and that the numbers should be limited, but at the same time it is worth saying that there are pressing economic reasons which point the other way. It was the First Secretary of State who, in a burst of characteristic candour some months ago, said that in the present economic situation, with a shortage of labour, it would be madness to restrict immigration in any way.
  Economically I can understand that argument. It is borne out by the National Plan, that golden calf of the First Secretary, which, despite high precedents to the contrary, we are all bidden to bow down and worship. There one gets a gap of 200,000 workers by 1970 put forward as a conservative estimate.
  12.15 a.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: It is like the Golden Calf of the capitalist state.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: Could not that gap in some way be filled by immigration from the under-employed Commonwealth, from citizens who are either totally unemployed or who could be more profitably employed here? That is a question which should at least be put.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ray Gunter): The hon. Gentleman will understand that, when the National Plan deals with a shortage of manpower of 200,000, the emphasis is on skilled manpower.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: I will come down to earth: I will leave the National Plan. I introduced it merely as a matter of courtesy to hon. Gentlemen opposite. Let me take the example of my own constituency, which is rather nearer to reality. We have great troubles over our local bus services: there are buses, but no crews to run them. I wonder if the people in Chelmsford, as they stand in the sleet, rain and snow, waiting for a bus which never comes, would care, when a bus came, about the colour of the Face of the driver of that bus. This is a question which brings the whole problem down to the realities of economic fact.
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  Some may think that the First Secretary, in making that statement, was indulging not only in a moment of candour but in a moment of truth. Unfortunately, as the Archbishop of Canterbury should have realised, concern for the simple truth is as rare in English politics as it is in English religion. I must congratulate the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale on his concern for the simple truth. The First Secretary, far from being hailed as a prophet and being suitably rewarded, had to run for cover and explain away his statement in the most emollient way possible.
  The facts of the situation, whatever the economic arguments may be, are that the country as a whole has decided, for social reasons, that we do not want more than a minimum of coloured immigrants. I accept that position. I do not say that I necessarily agree with it, but I accept that that is the national consensus on this subject. I only wish that the White Paper, which was such a mixture of humbug and hypocrisy, had stated this frankly.
  The figure of 20,000 vouchers issued in 1964—of which 15,000 were taken up—is to be cut to 8,500. I regret the quite arbitrary nature of that figure, but I accept it as being roughly in accord with the national will. After all, it is Oxford and not Westminster which is the home of lost causes. I am prepared to fight for what I believe in and I would go to the stake for a principle, but I will not be incinerated for a statistic.
  There are two further points, which are also part of the national consensus, which I should like to bring out. First, there is the question of the unity of the family. It is essential to stress this point, because, whenever the Government move their policy towards restriction, there are some hon. Members who wish to move ahead of them and be more restrictive. No system of control would be acceptable to the House or the nation which separated members of a family one from another. It would be unacceptable to the Christian conscience and it would be equally unacceptable to the moral conscience of the community as a whole. It has been stated to be unacceptable by my right hon. Friends the Members for Monmouth and Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) and I also agree with its rejection.

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  Faced with such a unanimity over such a wide range of opinion, we can only conclude that we are probably right. England, after all, is a domestic country, and it is here that the home above all is honoured and the family is revered. This is a national attitude which is reflected in our constitution, where we have not a person but a family on the Throne.
  My hon. Friends have made it clear that however strongly we might argue for control, we argue equally strongly for the equal treatment of our citizens. It would be a mockery to say this and then to deny them the right to a family life. This is a moral matter. To separate families is morally wrong, and for many of us that is the end of the matter. But there are pressing, practical reasons which reinforce this moral attitude. Our social aim must be to enable immigrants to become good and full citizens.
  How are they to become good and full citizens if they are denied the normal setting of family life? We know from experience—for example, of Italian workers in Germany separated from their families—how psychological disorders follow complete separation from the family background. Does any hon. Member—apart from the hon. Gentleman who advocated a complete stopping of immigrants into this country—believe that single men herded together in dormatories, separated from all the domestic stabilisers, can be of service to the country? The question has only to be posed to be answered. We should keep families together, therefore, not from sentiment and not even from idealism, but because it is ordinary common sense.
  The second point on which I think there would be wide agreement is that while the rules for immigration should be fairly and strictly enforced, they should also be humanely enforced, and this applies especially to families. The danger of strict orders going out from the Home Office to the immigration officials is that there will be much more room for arbitrary enforcement of those rules, and this is particularly true when families are involved.
  We know that the wife has a right to come into the country and I was delighted when the Joint Under-Secretary disposed, I hope for ever, of the scurrilous story about immigrants bringing in two, three or four wives. The hon. Gentle-
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  man produced an important piece of evidence when he said that there was no evidence in his Department of cases of that nature.
  We know that dependent children under 16 have a right to come in. May that long continue. But what I most regret about the White Paper is the provision which withdraws the concession allowing children who are dependent on their parents who are between 16 and 18 to come in. Why has that concession been withdrawn? The White Paper points out that it might be a means of securing the admission of young immigrant workers without vouchers, but what evidence is there of that having happened? And if there is such evidence, surely it is possible to close any loopholes by strict administration of the law, rather than removing the concession altogether.
  Mr. George Thomas: This is an important point. It has been made clear in another place by the Joint Under-Secretary who serves in that House that where young people—between 16 and 18 years—are coming to join either both parents or the sole surviving parent, they are normally to be admitted. However, the Committee should know that in this matter there has been a considerable amount of difficulty, such as people posing as being younger and so on. A great deal of thought has gone into this matter —the necessity to tighten things up, and so on—hut I thought I should intervene to make the position clear.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has drawn that modification of the White Paper to my attention.
  I appeal now for the grandmothers. Frequently we do not realise how important older people and grandmothers are in certain cultures, particularly the West Indian culture. Here, of course, it is very often a question of hiving them off into old people's homes, where they lead lonely lives, but they have a more positive rôle in the culture of the West Indies, where very often they are the bearers of the moral values of the whole family. Therefore, on both compassionate and social grounds, there are very strong reasons for admitting this part of the family with the others.

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  I therefore hope that the Home Secretary will take positive steps to see that immigration officers interpret the rules with which they are provided with compassion and humanity, because it has come to my attention that this is not always done. I would say that the vast majority of the officers do what they can in a very difficult position, and I hope that the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary will keep these matters under constant review.
  What I have just been saying is illustrative of a principle that I believe is accepted on both sides of the Committee; that once Commonwealth citizens are here they must be treated as equal—equal not only as regards family rights but also equal before the law, because it is a basic principle of our law that no citizen should be deprived of life or liberty without having recourse to the courts.
  I would merely allude here, in passing, to the question of deportation. Up to now the position has been that deportation of a Commonwealth citizen can only take place after a recommendation from a court—deportation following conviction for an offence carrying a sentence of imprisonment. I hope that that principle will be preserved in any revision of that law that may come about, because if there is a question of deporting someone who has entered illegally, the issue of whether that entry has been legal or illegal should be decided by a court and should not be an executive decision of the Home Secretary.
  I pass to the third major criticism of the Government's attitude in the White Paper, which is that in approaching the problem the Government show no sign of being seized of the urgency of the problem of integrating immigrants into our community. And by the word "integrating" I mean taking positive social measures so that they enjoy equality of rights, not only in theory but in fact. I hope that we on this side of the Committee will continue to press the Government to take action in this sphere.
  It may be that by cutting down on the number of immigrants, a beneficial side effect, though not a necessary purpose, would be that it would be easier to take positive measures for those who are already here, but what would be quite wrong would be to cut down numbers and
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  to do virtually nothing to improve the living conditions of those already here. That is an extraordinary position, and one into which the Government have got. We are building up ghettoes in our great cities in which immigrants are trapped and are unable to get out. This is exactly the situation that has caused so much trouble in the United States, and race riots in places as far apart as Los Angeles and New York. They are not only ghettoes but insanitary and overcrowded ghettoes, because if some mad planner were choosing the areas of Britain least suited for an influx of immigrants he could not have done better than to choose the areas into which the immigrants have gone.
  The only solution is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) has suggested, to treat them really as development areas. That would accord with our philosophy on this side of the Committee, which is to give social aid which is limited to the areas that need it most. We can improve ghettoes and make them more comfortable, but that is not enough. There is, of course, nothing wrong with living in a ghetto if one wishes to. What is wrong—
  Mr. Freeson: There is this constant use of the word "ghetto". There is no statistical evidence provided by Government Departments or the Centre of Urban Studies, which has done a good deal of work on this subject, to support the use of the word "ghetto," which means, as I understand it, that a majority of the people living in that particular district—and it must be a defined district—are people from abroad. That has been established by a study of districts, even down to the enuremation district level of 600, by the Centre of Urban Studies. I think that it does a lot of harm to use that word.
  12.30 a.m.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: I accept with great interest the intervention of the hon. Member, but certainly I think, without relying on statistics, from one's personal experience of visiting areas of immigration, one sees whole streets, roads and areas entirely occupied by coloured people—in North Kensington, for example. For the purpose of discussion one concedes the point made by the hon. Member, but if they are not ghettoes they approach ghettoes. We have to look to the future. There is a new generation growing up.

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  Many are born here and know no other country than this. They will not be content to be confined to an inferior position in society doing menial jobs and denied the opportunity of participating in the mobility which is one of the great achievements of our contemporary society. It is for that situation that the Government ought to be planning now. One of the great criticisms of the White Paper is that it shows itself entirely oblivious of this problem which is growing. We should be taking steps for improving the education and opportunities for advancement of all our citizens whatever their colour. This would help to solve the colour problem because there is not so much prejudice because of the colour of people's skin but because of the cultural inferiorities associated in people's minds with colour, and that is the real cause of the problem.
  All who have studied this problem know how difficult it is. I think that the feelings of ordinary men and women are not so much of prejudice as of confusion. In this position we can appeal to the worst in human nature and seek to exploit it for partisan advantage or we can seek the best and try to fashion a solution in the national interest. It is our duty to take positive steps by legislation to improve the situation and back that up by an appeal to the tradition of generous social service and idealism which, fortunately, is so strong in this country. If we do that we shall evoke a response from the nation commensurate with the problem we face and the issues of human happiness involved.
  Dr. David Kerr: I had the fortune last year to follow the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) in a similar debate. On that occasion I was forced, not at all reluctantly, to pay tribute to what he said. I pay tribute today again. He obviously finds the same difficulty vis-à-vis his Front Bench as I find vis-à-vis my Front Bench. He has gone out of his way to avoid making any accusations, and I promise that I shall do the same.
  There is no shortage of sincerity in this place; we are all sincere. The trouble, and this is the worst crime in politics, is that some of us are wrong. This, of course, is where we differ. The hon. Member has provided a few pegs on
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  which I can hang some comments. The question of ghettoes, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson), is a matter about which there is some confusion. I should like to reinforce what was said about it. I think I would not be wrong in suggesting that the immigrant population in the constituency of the hon. Member for Chelmsford is small relative to that in the constituency which I represent. Although there are concentrations of immigrants in certain areas, they are not in ghettoes. In those areas of high concentration, the relationship between the immigrant and the host community is extraordinarily variable, but, most important, throughout the growth of the immigrant population in this country the predominant keynote has been one of tolerance. It has been one of grumbling and resentful tolerance sometimes, but it has been tolerance.
  The question I put to the right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke), a former Home Secretary, who claimed that following the introduction of the Commonwealth Immigration Act, 1962, he had received reports from the police of an improvement in the relationship, is a question which no one has put to him. What was responsible for the breakdown which followed so shortly after that extravagant claim?
  The other thing I wanted to comment on was the remarks of the hon. Member for Chelmsford about grandmothers. Grandma, in the West Indies even more than here, and I personally regret this, is the host to the children. There has been a lot of talk about the dependants of immigrants as though they were wasters and parasites coming into Britain to use our resources and contribute nothing. As long ago as 1961, at the time of the census, figures were brought to light showing that the number of immigrant women employed was significantly higher than the number of women who are born here. To talk about immigrants' dependants in a rather condescending way is characteristic of the Opposition, who are beginning to find that they need new targets for their arrogance and condescension and think they have an easy one in the immigrant population.
  We have heard tonight from one hon. Member on the Opposition Front Bench, speaking in terms of the most offensive patronage. This is something which I

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  think must have some influence on the relationship between the host community and the newly-arrived community. The House of Commons has a great responsibility in influencing this relationship. I am wholly with the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) when he claims that the vigorous campaign conducted by the Labour Party, when in Opposition, against the Commonwealth Immigrants Act made an important contribution to maintaining racial tolerance in this country when it was endangered by the views expressed by Conservatives, views that have continued to be expressed in the last year and have again found expression tonight.
  The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) produced his own Private Member's Bill tonight to expand the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. What a parlous piece of discrimination this was. But the keynote of the whole debate was set in its earliest stages when in the most glutinous speech I have yet had to tolerate from the Conservative benches, the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) was forced to say, with what I could only describe as disarming honesty, that we were talking about a colour problem. We have not sufficiently stressed this. This is what we have been saying on this subject.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: One day the hon. Member may learn that it is no more an insult to a man to say that he is coloured than to say he is a Jew or has got a red head. When the hon. Member learns that lesson he will know more about tolerance.
  Dr. Kerr: The right hon. Member must not try to teach me tolerance. I can teach him about being called a Jew. I have been subjected to this and this is why I have been so passionate about the coloured immigration problem. The word "Jew" in a certain context is meant as an insult and I have been subjected to it. Let the right hon. Member not try to teach me lessons about this. I learnt them at a very early age. The same is true about the coloured immigrant. When the right hon. Member for Monmouth proclaims that he is talking about the colour problem he is endorsing what so many of us have been saying since the White Paper was published.
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  This is a colour question. It is based on discrimination between coloured and white. The right hon. Member for Monmouth has endorsed that. That is what we continue to say, and that is why we are opposing by every means open to us the continuance of an Act which we opposed throughout its introduction and its extension on a basis which, despite the claims that research has been done for months, does not seem to me and many others to accord with the findings of that research, whether that research is conducted by sociologist Professor John Rex, the Institute of Race Relations, the Centre for Urban Studies or in the simple way that some of us with responsibility for immigrant communities conduct it—on the doorstep.
  Let me tell the Committee one of the ways in which immigrant colour problems arise. On a rather depressed flatted estate in my constituency, a coloured family was rehoused. The borough council—I am not ashamed to say this—slid it badly and had not prepared for it. It thrust a coloured family into the block of flats, overcrowded already with many people who had been on housing lists for a long time. Inevitably, that caused resentment. All credit to the three political parties. We all came together on the tenants' association platform and decried this sort of discrimination. I wonder whether the Conservative Party in my constituency would be able to do that this week in view of what has been said from the Opposition Front Bench about colour problems. The three of us agreed that there should be no colour discrimination. When I went back to the flats a month later, an elderly lady, a neighbour of the coloured family, answered the door. In reply to my inquiry, put as discreetly as I could—"How are you getting on with your coloured neighbours?"—she said, "Oh, they are lovely. We often pass the time of day". This is the way in which simple sorts of education can help personal relationships.
  No one knows this better than my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East because he has been doing it on the doorstep in a way which should be an example to any of us. I wonder how many houses with immigrant families inside them have been entered by the

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  right hon. Member for Monmouth. Perhaps I need not have asked the question. because in succession to all that has been said previously he can claim, I am sure. that some of his best friends are immigrants. This has been said before, and perhaps it is not inopportune that the right hon. Member for Monmouth should come to the Dispatch Box and make his rather unnecessarily condescending remark at a time, Mr. Lever, when I am proud to think that a fellow Jew is occupying the Chair in this Committee.
  I think that I should not apologise to the Committee for disturbing the even tenor of this debate. It is a debate which has made me angrier than any which has preceded it in the past year during which I have had the honour to serve here. I make no apology for not adopting the rather sweet and benign attitude of the hon. Member for Chelmsford. I think that this is something to get deeply angry and passionate about, and I do not apologise. Nor do I share the view, which is held very sincerely by some of my colleagues, that this is a non-party matter, that this can be discussed across the benches. There is, of course, a welcome identity of view between myself and some of my hon. Friends and people like, if I can claim him as a friend, the hon. Member for Chelmsford or some hon. Members who, alas, are not here but should be occupying the Liberal benches. Of course, there is a certain to and fro. But what bedevils and bewilders us is the strange coming together of the Front Benches. I have said that there is no shortage of sincerity. Who on earth could accuse an hon. Member like the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department of insincerity? He is the sweetest one we have ever had, and will be welcome to take a glass of water with me whenever he likes. [An HON. MEMBER: "Coloured water?"] No, plain.
  This is a debate which should never have started off on a cross-party-and-let-us-all-be-gentlemanly basis. There is nothing gentlemanly about a principle which divides people, as the right hon. Member for Monmouth has said, on the basis of colour. Some of us have been through it and we have been divided. Let me say frankly to the Committee that it was not so many years ago that my grandfather found it necessary to change
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  his name from Kerstein to Kerr. I am beginning to wonder whether I should not blazen it forth and change my name back again. It is not a matter for pride in the tolerance of this country that views such as we have heard could be expressed.
  I charge the Opposition, not my Front Bench, for leading this country to an attitude of colour discrimination. I charge the Opposition for the fact that they have never repudiated the unhealthy views, to put it at its kindest, promulgated by some of their newly found colleagues. I charge the Opposition for a further extension for this kind of discrimination. I repudiate it with a passion which I did not think I had and I am not ashamed of it.
  12.45 a.m.
  Mr. Harold Gorden: The speech which we have just heard has been in line with many from the benches opposite attacking my right hon. and hon. Friends for what happened a year or two ago when this Act was brought into being. One only has to read the speeches made then and the attacks made on my hon. Friends by the party opposite to realise that things have not changed very much. Fair enough, the back-benchers have been consistent in their arguments against my party. The attacks came not least from the Labour Members of Parliament from Birmingham, particularly the hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell). Today I was reading some of the scurrilous things he was saying about my party and myself because of the Act to control immigration. Of course, it is obviously convenient for him not to be here tonight. He knows that some of the things he said then could not stand up in view of the action of the Government. of which he is a member, in continuing this control.
  There has been one very sincere speech, that from the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). Quite clearly he put the whole responsibility for continuing the Act on his own Front Bench. Other hon. Members have tried to skirt around this by attacking my party, but the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale said quite clearly that he was attacking his own Front Bench. But the hon. Members who share his view do not propose to go into the Lobby tonight against their own Front Bench.
  Mr. Heiler: Surely my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) was arguing against our Front Bench because it was accepting the arguments of the Opposition Front Bench.
  Mr. Gurden: This is perfectly true. I am pointing out that it is most unfair to attack my party in this way. The Government could have let the Act die. It could be forgotten and abandoned but for the Government's action in continuing it for another year.
  Mr. Brian Walden: Can the hon. Gentleman say what he would say in Birmingham if the Act were allowed to elapse like that?
  Mr. Gurden: Of course I would oppose such an action, but at least that would be consistent, for I have always taken this attitude, as the hon. Gentleman knows, quite unlike himself and his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) who clearly admitted that he had changed his mind on this issue. I still think that control is necessary and I congratulate the Home Secretary on tackling this matter fearlessly.
  We have now reached a stage when, but for a few hon. Members on the back benches opposite, it is generally agreed that more control is necessary. Further, we have reached the stage when it is generally agreed that more stringent control is necessary if we are to accept the White Paper and the evidence of the Home Secretary and the view that on present figures another half a million immigrants will be added to the present number in the next ten years—a conservative estimate.
  We are thus moving slowly but surely to greater control and we must acknowledge the work of the Home Secretary in bringing forward the additional measures of the White Paper. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, the present difficulties arise mainly from illegal entry and the enormous number of dependants. Having reached the very small figure of 8.000 immigrants a year, is it not time to call a halt for a couple of years in order to allow some of the dependants to come in rather than admit more voucher holders? We have got the figure down bit by bit—both parties have contributed to this—and today the figure was given as being 7,500. We must be approaching
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  the time when a complete ban could be imposed for a year or two to enable recovery to be made.
  Coming from Birmingham, I cannot let the debate pass without adding to what has already been said about the strain on education and housing. The Socialist-controlled local authority in Birmingham does not agree with the Government's recommendation about spreading the load and does not accept that immigrant children must be spread out. However, whatever happens in any local education authority area, it is generally admitted that the strain on educational facilities is enormous. I agreed with the Joint Under-Secretary when he pointed to the stresses and said how they justified further control for this if for no other reason.
  As my hon. Friends have said, it is not the fault of the immigrants that the housing situation is as it is. It is not the fault of the immigrants that these services are so severely strained. It is the fault of Parliament. Through the years the controls have never been early enough or strong enough. We must accept this. I would like to know from some hon. Gentlemen opposite who are opposing their own Front Bench how many people they would let into the country. How many do they propose that this country can take? Another million, another 10 million or 50 million? There are that many people ready to come in.
  Mr. Freeson: Another 50 million waiting on the doorstep?
  Mr. Gurden: There is nothing to suggest that the figure would be exaggerated at all. The hon. Gentleman may he making a speech in these terms and I would like him to tell me what is the figure he would allow into the country. He does not agree with anything that his own Front Bench has said: he does not agree with anything that my Front Bench has said about control. Would the hon. Gentleman tell us the figure and then we shall know where he stands?
  Mr. Rose: Surely the point is that the hon. Gentleman is arguing for restriction of only one group of immigrants. What about the number of other immigrants coming in from other sources? Is he applying his argument to those?
  Mr. Gurden: To all immigrants.
  Mr. Freeson: I will deal with the point which was just thrown across the Chamber to me in the course of my remarks. I want to start by expressing my dismay at most of the speech that we had from the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department. This is not to question his sincerity but it is to question the value of the content of the speech. It is not good enough to stand in this Committee, or on a public platform, and make exaggerated and passionate statements about the country "bursting at the seams", or about "floods" of people about to come in if we do not impose tighter controls, or to say that the social services are going to break down, and to use this kind of exaggerated language if we are trying to deal with the problem sensibly, rationally and humanely.
  Nor is it good enough to introduce a number of statistics which are very questionable indeed, not only in themselves but in the context in which they are used. I intend to pursue further one of the figures given by the Joint Under-Secretary dealing with the intake of children into a particular education authority. I intend to take it up with the Department of Education and Science because I do not accept it as being an accurate figure. It was the example of an area in this country receiving 300 additional children per month—which produces 3,600 children per year. I would be most interested to learn what local education authority, divisional area or whatever, is experiencing such an influx of children additional to its present population.
  The reason why I stress this in my introductory remarks is because well-meaning though they may be, either in terms of the subject about which the speech was made, or in terms of trying to score points in debate, these are the kind of statements, exaggerations and misuse of statistics which add to the difficulty of understanding the problems facing the country, and add to the difficulty of achieving sound integration. It is this kind of so-called information which is picked up by people outside of this Chamber and thrown around the country in conversation, speeches and articles, and which adds to the misunderstanding and distortion of the true situation which we have in our towns.
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  The most interesting thing about tonight's debate is that, with one exception only, every speech on this side of the Committee has been critical of the Government's policy, and every speech on the other side of the Committee has been in support of that policy, as reflected in the continuation of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act and in the tighter controls and the greater restrictions proposed in the White Paper.
  l.0 a.m.
  What is more, we are now reaching the situation—we have seen it tonight—which has been forecast by those of us who have been expressing concern about the Government's attitude to race relations during the past year. Speaker after speaker on the other side of the Committee has said, "We thank the Government for doing what they are doing or what they are going to do. We regret very much indeed that they are delaying certain very restrictive legislation"—legislation which will be a serious interference with the civil liberties of the subject—"but what you have done and what you intend to do is not enough." Various suggestions have been made; for example, that no more dependants should be admitted, that there should be no more immigrants allowed into the country, only male workers should be allowed in, and so on.
  Let there be no mistake; although the Government may think that they have won the day and have calmed the situation, that they have cut across party politics because they have retreated steadily over the past 12 months in the face of what we have had from the party opposite, from now onwards there will be a very vociferous minority putting down more Questions on the Order Paper month after month. There will be speeches containing the kind of suggestions that we have heard from the hon. Members for Rugby (Mr. Wise) and Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden). Do the Government think that we have now lost sight of this kind of conflict in the House and throughout the country? If they do, they are living in a fools' paradise.
  One of my great moments in this House was when I heard the attack, which was so strongly criticised by hon. Members opposite, made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the hon. Member

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  for Smethwick (Mr. Peter Griffiths), and on the Front Bench opposite who refused to dissociate themselves from the kind of filthy campaign which was waged in Smethwick. Smethwick was the political trauma which hit this country and this House.
  I was even more thrilled when I heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister speak at the Labour Party Conference which followed the election and use these words with reference to racialism:
  "… our hands must be clean. And in your name I have condemned and will condemn every so-called Labour Club which operates colour discrimination and every group of misguided workers who try to operate colour prejudice in their working relationships.'He hath made of one blood all nations to dwell upon the earth.' This Labour Party of ours is more than a political organisation; it is a crusade, or it would be better that it did not exist.… Never in our history has Britain stood so greatly in need of the principles which our faith can generate."
  I still believe in those words. But they are not reflected in the White Paper nor in the steady retreat that we have seen on the Front Bench against the kind of nasty Parliamentary Questions and speeches which have been heard in this House and in the country from certain Members of the Conservative Party.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary challenged us earlier, understandably, because he thought that we were questioning the Government's sincerity. He thought that we were questioning the attitude of mind which still underlay their thoughts on race relations in the light of the White Paper. This is not what we were intervening about. Let there be no cavilling about this. We have been told by certain hon. Members opposite, and by others—and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) underlined it well—that there has not only been a change of mind, but that there has been a retreat from principle. I shall not play about with words. This has been a retreat from principle.
  I could understand it if we had had sound and detailed argument tonight from the Minister to support the policy as reflected in the White Paper, which will tighten up and extend what has been done under the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. I would have understood it even better had the White Paper applied some kind of factual material to the presentation of its proposals. The interesting thing, however, is that there has
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  not been one argument in the White Paper. There is a great dearth of facts because—I repeat what I have said, both outside the House and inside it at Question Time—they have not been collected by Government Departments. They have not undertaken the right kind of reports or research to get understanding of the problems—not this so-called great problem with a capital "P", but the problems involved in integration in areas of bad housing and social conditions. If they had had the facts, they could have given them in the White Paper.
  Since the publication of the White Paper, we have seen a more solid body of information being prepared by the Young Fabians, by the Bow Group and by the Liberal Party Study Group on this issue, in the documents they have published, than the Government could produce in the White Paper. That is astonishing, but it leads us all the more to question the kind of policy which we are being asked to support.
  I am under no illusion. The policy will go forward. The Government have given way to some degree, and we must not belittle the importance of the delaying measures that are being taken with regard to the legislation originally proposed in the White Paper. We must not belittle this, but it will take a long, hard slog—a matter not of weeks or, perhaps, months, but, it may be, years—before we can once again get some rational thinking and soundly-based principles introduced into our public policy-making in this field and before we can get away from the kind of emotional language which we have been getting more and more frequently from Ministers, as well as from hon. Members opposite, about the "floods" of immigrants which must be stemmed because our social services are "reaching breaking point". That is the kind of language used by responsible Ministers and which was used by certain hon. Members opposite when the 1962 Act was mooted. It was the kind of language that we deplored from the Labour benches in the House of Commons and throughout the country.
  The only reason to be given by the Government for the cut-down, the severe restriction and, indeed, the imposition of the quota ceiling on Commonwealth immigrants was that given by the Leader of the House in making his statement on

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  2nd August, when he said that the White Paper measures were necessary because
  "there is a limit to the number of immigrants that this small and overcrowded country can absorb."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd August, 1965; Vol. 717, c. 1058.]
  I may well come back to that a little later, but I should like to remind the Committee of what some of the Ministers in the present Government have had to say in answer to it. For example, we heard from the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations that
  "We on this side are clear on our attitude towards restricted immigration. I think I speak for my right hon. and hon. Friends by saying that we are categorically against it"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1958; Vol. 596, c. 1576.]
  What did the hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell), now "Minister for Sport" in the Department of Education and Science, say? He wanted "the open-door policy, not least for moral and ethical reasons".
  The Minister without Portfolio described the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill as
  "a distasteful, bad and unnecessary Bill—an unjustifiable Bill."
  He said:
  "It betrays one of our most cherished traditions, the tradition of admitting citizens of the British Commonwealth to this country as of right, regardless of colour, creed or numbers." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1962; Vol. 653, c. 257.]
  I could quote many other statements from members of the present Government on this issue, but time forbids.
  In the course of the debates that took place on the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, the Labour Opposition forced concessions from the Conservative Government; for example, such things as allowing common law wives in as dependants, a fairly free flow of part-time students who would be undertaking work as well as study, which is the common pattern in student life throughout the world. There were strong and fairly successful efforts to weaken the powers of deportation under the Bill so that they would not be extended as far as they were originally intended.
  Those were the kinds of things that the Labour Opposition fought for; yet those three points which were considered so fundamental at that time are being
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  overturned if the White Paper is implemented in full. The very concessions which the Labour Party won in its hard political battle in 1962 are going to be overturned now that it has come to power. It cannot be for electoral reasons, as has been mentioned once or twice during the debate.
  For we have had the hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath who said:
  "In a Christian country it is not the job of a political leadership to decide its first priority on the basis of electoral advantage. The only decent basis for decisions by the Government is that of ethics and morality."
  The Minister of Defence in the present Government had this to say about political popularity. He said:
  "We on these benches … who have spoken against the Bill know that it was an unpopular fight from the point of view of the bulk of public opinion in this country, and I do not think that anyone who has opposed the Bill has been unconscious of the fact that he may pay personally or through his party some political penalty for it. … This has been a real example of political leadership, and it has paid off in the resultant effect on public opinion."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1962; Vol. 654, c. 1269.]
  My hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) referred to that earlier. It was a fact that public opinion was being improved as a result of the stand taken at that time against the Tory Party and the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill.
  What did the Attorney-General in the present Government say about the Bill? He said:
  "Our law does not know and never has known any distinction between British subjects in respect of race or colour … it is about the most depressing Parliamentary development for a very long time.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1961; Vol. 1650, c. 1240.]
  If he said that in 1961, what are we to say about the White Paper in 1965? Is it more depressing or less depressing than that very sad parliamentary development in 1961 to which the Attorney-General referred?
  I am going to continue with some quotations from speeches, because it is necessary to remind members of the Government of what they said firmly and strongly, and what we thought as back benchers they believed.
  Referring to part-time students, the Minister without Portfolio said:
  "Students ought not to be penalised because they are poor. There ought not to be

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  provision which merely enables those students to come who can afford full-time education. We want to encourage students like those who have been coming here who have managed to combine the earning of a livelihood with devoting their spare time to profitable and useful study … because they are the kind of individuals we want to encourage."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1962; Vol. (53, c. 3741
  What do the Government say to that idea, in the light of their White Paper?
  In relation to the point which was made much of by the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas), the Under-Secretary of State for Colonial Affairs said:
  "I also consider that there should be an absolute right for mothers and fathers to come and join their children who have settled in this country. The principle of family life and its sanctify should be respected in a Bill such as this. We hear the most unctuous sentiments from Ministers of the Crown—from the Home Secretary, the Minister of Education and others —about the need to cherish Christian ideals. Honour thy father and thy mother '. That should appeal to the Government. They should give us an absolute assurance that people will not be separated from their mothers and fathers."—[Orricint. REPORT, 5th December, 1961; Vol. 650, c. 13071
  What is going to be the position under the White Paper? Are the mothers and fathers of people who have migrated to this country to be given the absolute right for which the Front Bench Labour Party spokesmen asked at that time, or are they to be denied it? The White Paper suggests that they will be denied it. I still hold the view that these people should have that right, and I hope that Members of the Government still hold it and that they will think again about the contents of the White Paper.
  1.15 a.m.
  I have a very good reason for raising this issue. As my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of States knows, I have personal experience of a very sad case which tooks months to fight through and get agreement to allow a prematurely retired Anglo-Indian couple to join their children in this country. The children were capable of looking after them, and they had good living accommodation available for their parents, but they and I had great difficulty in getting the matter settled, and I have no doubt that other hon. Members have had experience of similar cases.
  The statements which I have quoted were made in 1962, only three short years
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  ago. What has happened since then? We are entitled to know, and the White Paper or the Minister should tell us what has happened. We should be given this information. We are entitled to have a properly argued case presented to this House and to the country, but we are not getting it. All that we have got—and I have been attacked for saying this elsewhere, but I say it again now—is what I can only describe as a shoddy White Paper.
  It proposes measures which, as recently as the end of May of this year, two months before the White Paper was published, the Home Secretary described as
  "drastic and unpleasant, 'and' inherently repugnant to the whole concept of Commonwealth."
  Is it surprising that innocent backbenchers like myself stick to the views expressed in May. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, the White Paper is a repugnant document. It has not changed in two months, or in six months. The measures it contains today, and which my right hon. and learned Friend and my hon. Friend are defending, are the measures which my right hon. and learned Friend attacked in May. I agree with what he said then. Does he agree with himself now?
  This change of policy has gone almost unexplained, either here or at the Blackpool Conference. Nor has it been explained in the three or four speeches which Ministers have made on the subject in different parts of the country. The only explanation that we have had on the subject was that of my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Foley) who, as the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, has a special responsibility in this matter. Speaking at Bradford in October he said that "the only reason" for the changes outlined in the White Paper was the widespread prejudice that had grown up in this country. That was not said at the Blackpool Conference, nor has it been said in this House.
  We have been told about housing difficulties, about the social services being overstrained and reaching breaking point, and about the "flood" of people waiting to come here if we keep the doors as wide open as they have been, but the junior Minister with special responsibility in this field—not an ordinary back-bencher like

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  myself—said that the "only reason" for the changes outlined in the White Paper was the widespread prejudice that had grown up in this country.
  I believe that it was one of the Joint Under-Secretaries of State at the Home Department who said that the real need was for a breathing space, a pause. There is nothing about a breathing space or a pause in the White Paper. We have had no statement in the House that it is intended to run this policy for one year. two years, 18 months, three years, or some other period of time. We are not told that it is to provide a breathing space.
  It is rather interesting to note that that kind of phrase was used by Mr. Butler, as he then was, when he was the Minister responsible for the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill which was introduced in 1961. He said that it was necessary to have a breathing space, but nearly four years have passed since then, and we still need a breathing space to deal with race relations problems. The odd thing—or is it so odd; it is a sad and tragic thing—is that the public attitude to race relations in this country is much worse than it was twelve months ago. Make no mistake about it, this Parliament has a grave responsibility in this matter, and that includes every hon. Member of the House. In so far as the Government should be giving a lead in this kind of situation, the Government have the main responsibility. They have failed in it.
  Other reasons have been given, of course, which have been contradicted by the statement about the only reason being a high level of prejudice. There has been much talk of evasion. In fact, the Prime Minister himself, as well as the Joint Under-Secretary of State at Black-pool, stressed this as being one of the two reasons for the White Paper—
  Mr. George Thomas: Minister of State.
  Mr. Freeson: I beg my hon. Friend's pardon—Minister of State.
  This was given as one of the two reasons. There was no impression there of prejudice being the reason: the only reason was that there was a threat of a social explosion of some kind, to which I will return in a moment. The Prime Minister spoke of a social explosion and of widespread evasion.
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  I challenge the figures which are given constantly in the House and elsewhere. I do not believe that they are based on a proper analysis of immigration in this country. I must give some credit—probably the only credit I will give—to the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft), who earlier tonight mentioned the fact, to which little attention has been paid in the rest of the debate, that by far the highest level of evasion, and the most quickly rising, is to be found not among citizens of the new Commonwealth countries, but among those from the older Commonwealth countries.
  But can any Minister stand up and say that it is because of a high level of evasion from the older Commonwealth countries that the White Paper was presented? We know that this is not the reason. Yet the Home Secretary himself, in answer to a Parliamentary Question which I put down much earlier this year referred to a figure of 10,000 from the new Commonwealth and not to 15,000 during the same period of the past two years or so, representing evasion by citizens of the older Commonwealth countries. Why not a White Paper on that evasion? are we really concerned with evasion as such, or is it, as so many hon. Members have said, that we are concerned with coloured people? At least let us be honest about it. After all these years, have we suddenly, between last October and this November, come near to "bursting at the seams"?
  The Labour Party did not go to the country on the proposals outlined in the White Paper. Let us be honest about it. Many of us did not like even what was mentioned in the manifesto, but accepted it as part of a broad pattern of policy which is negotiated and discussed in a democratic movement, which then goes to the country on it. There was nothing in that manifesto indicating the interference with civil liberties and the various other measures of restriction proposed in the White Paper.
  There was nothing in the manifesto like the Home Secretary's statement in February this year, when there was a great evasion scare aroused by hon. Members of the party opposite—including the then Leader of the Opposition —and the Government reacted promptly by making a special statement in the House.

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  My hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West pointed out earlier that he and I have been living with this problem for the past eight, nine or 10 years, but we did not produce the shoddy ideas contained in that statement and in the White Paper. We have never said that people must be deported with-cut due process of the courts: we have never believed that this was the answer to the problem. Nor did we go round fie schools mixing up definitions of immigrant children, non-English speaking children and children born to immigrant Parents.
  To this moment—and we have had no answer from the Under-Secretary tonight—nobody in this country knows what the Department of Education and Science mean when they talk about "immigrant children". One gets one answer from a civil servant, one from the Ministry—when one checks through a local education officer—and we have had another attempt from the Government in the Committee tonight.
  One thing is quite clear, whatever the definitions. about the Government's policy—there are children who have been and will be born in Britain, who, by that famous, or infamous, or muddleheaded—let us forget the first two and call it muddleheaded—circular, will be considered as immigrant children. How far do we go in this respect in bastardising the English language?
  As far as I know, an immigrant is someone who is coming here to settle, and not a child who is born here. If that were not the case, I wonder how many parents of hon. Members might be classified as immigrants because their parents came from Ireland, Europe or elsewhere. According to the definition in the Ministry of Education's circular, my parents would have been classified as immigrants, although born and bred here. This is a disgraceful and stupid state of affairs. This is the kind of thing on which we are basing our White Paper. This is the kind of nonsense being put out as national policy to local education committees and officers.
  Is it any wonder that the Government and the Ministry are not clear about what they want to do, that people throughout the country at local authority level and among the public generally are muddled and confused about the aims of
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  the Government? Is it any wonder that people should be confused about the attitude they should adopt to the various social problems which are the background to the whole question of immigration?
  Let us come down to the real facts The real cause—and this has been mentioned by some hon. Members and rejected by others—of what is involved in the White Paper and what has been going on recently is, from the Government's point of view, fear, too much attention being paid to prejudice and a great deal of muddled thinking. Those are the three factors involved, and I do not give preference to any one of them.
  We have had no evidence, from the White Paper or elsewhere, that there is a real understanding of the problems of Commonwealth immigration and that a proper study of those problems has been made. There has been a steady retreat under pressure, from the other side, from their friends outside and from much worse people. Every time we move in the direction of the Party opposite, whether or not we like to admit it, we move in the direction of the racialist and fascist groups. They are the groups who, above all, are pleased about this and would like to go further. They are not concerned with the problems of immigration but merely with racialism and their distorted ideas.
  Every time we move in that direction and every time the more liberal hon. Members of the Conservative Party move towards their backwoodsmen they themselves, the backwoodsmen, move further to the right on this issue. Are we to do that? Are we to be muddied? Is that not what has been happening in the past year? It is. We have been muddied, just like the best people in the party opposite have been muddied by the worst people in it. I do not want to be muddied. Nor do the vast majority of people inside and outside the Labour Movement want to be muddied.
  We may make mistakes, including myself. I am sure that I have made mistakes in the sphere of race relations in my constituency in the past and I have no doubt that I must learn by my mistakes. But I am going to do my best to make sure that none of those mistakes are made as a result of cringing to racialists. I will probably regret my mistakes, but I will

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  learn by them—but they will not be made for the wrong reasons, which is what has been happening in the past 18 months.
  I am not suggesting that it is racialist to argue for the right to control immigration—provided always that, first, such control is non-discriminatory in the racial sense. There is no principle involved in such control if it is non-discriminatory, but there is a fundamental principle involved when the control is racially discriminatory.
  1.30 a.m.
  I am sure the Government are not motivated by racialist ideas. However, no amount of pleading can alter the fact that the actual controls are racially discriminatory. A ceiling is being imposed and there are restrictions on one class of immigrant and not on the whole range. That is the first condition. The second is that any controls are consistent with economic efficiency. Third, provided they are really related to our social capacity to admit. Fourth, provided that there is a genuine regard for civil liberties in any such controls, and finally, provided also that the least possible restraint, and not the most, is introduced, commensurate with the needs of administration. We did not get a single sign of this from the other side, not even from the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas). I regret to say that even he could not repeat what he said last year in his maiden speech; that he favoured evasion because it showed a liberal application of the immigration laws.
  Those are the five conditions I lay down. Can it be said that the White Paper and the continued application of the Act are non-discriminatory racially? Can it be argued that it is consistent with economic efficiency and related to the state of our social capacity; that it has due regard to civil liberties, and imposes the least possible restraint rather than the greatest? None of these things can be argued in relation to the White Paper and the controls proposed in it.
  The striking feature of the whole of this debate—I do not mean just this debate tonight but the debate over the last two or three months since the publication of the White Paper in August—is that no case for a reduction has been made by the Government. There have been
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  assumptions and generalisations, but no case has been argued in any particular detail for any kind of reduction. We are given a figure of 8,500. With others, I ask: how do we arrive at that figure? I am not concerned with the particular figure—if it had been 10,500 or 15,000 or any other figures I would not have been concerned. What I am concerned about is a discriminatory quota ceiling and that no properly argued economic or social case has been made for any particular figure.
  We were told by the Leader of the House that it is
  "reasonable at this stage, taking into consideration the ability of this country to absorb more immigrants."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd August, 1965; Vol. 717, c. 1063.]
  But the interesting thing is that this figure is about half the number of those who had been coming in up to the time when the White Paper was published. The White Paper also says, however, that in the past only about three-quarters of the vouchers issued have been taken up. If this experience continues —it may not, but if it does—it will mean that only about 5,500 people will enter this country on work vouchers, and not the 8,500 which is the top limit.
  That is one figure one has, and I have another jotted down here. I am sorry that the Minister of State has left us, because this is a figure which she herself has quoted on two occasions in public discussion of the White Paper—at the Blackpool Conference and a little later in a television interview—when she described the problem as being one of five dependants for every person allowed into the country. The White Paper says three. A few weeks later a Minister of the Crown says that it is five. Is it the figure in the White Paper or the figure of five? If we are to get these exaggerations or mistakes they will affect public debate.
  Hon. Members have given figures earlier which show quite clearly the discriminatory practice we shall embark on. With reference to this fact, we shall have more South Africans coming in, now that South Africa has left the Commonwealth, on work permits than immigrants from any one Commonwealth country on A vouchers, which are a similar kind of work permit system. I shall not pursue such facts as that on the basis of last year's experience and that of the year before, we shall have something like

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  8,000 Spaniards coming in on work vouchers, which is near to equalling the whole of the vouchers issued to all Commonwealth immigrants. These things indicate what some of us believed, that riot a great deal of thought has been given to the principles applied.
  I shall put one or two specific questions in regard to the proposals in the White Paper about which I am rather disturbed. I shall not attempt answers, but put the questions and hope that we shall be given the answers tonight or on another occasion. I should like to know if and when the Home Secretary made any recommendation to the Cabinet for a marked reduction in the number of work vouchers to be issued to Commonwealth immigrants. The reason I ask is that some of us have the feeling that he or the Government had come to the conclusion that there should be a marked reduction some time before the Mountbatten Mission reported. If that is so we are entitled to know. We have been told that the decision was taken on the basis of that Report, but some of us think that the decision was taken long before the Mountbatten Mission reported.
  We have asked, and I hope that one day we shall get the answer, why the Government arrived at the figure of 8,500. Hon. Members have referred to the fact that the National Plan estimates that by 1970 there will be a shortfall of 200,000 workers in this country. The Minister of Labour in a short intervention when the hon. Member for Chelmsford was speaking, suggested that this did not refer to unskilled workers. To the best of my recollection, the National Plan did not specify, but made a broad calculation of when the shortfall would be arrived at and the kind of industries which would suffer most, and it came to the grand total of 200,000. The experience of the building industry has been quoted and it has been suggested that at whatever level, skilled or unskilled, there is a continuing shortage of craftsmen. I know this from my experience in local government when trying to step up housing in my district. There is a considerable shortage and it seems we are going out of our way to encourage that shortage of craftsmen or potential trainees; for quite a number of Commonwealth immigrants have gone into the building industry.
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  There has been much loose talk tonight, as on previous occasions, about the housing problem. We had some recently from South London judging from newspaper reports about Lambeth. It happens that my area and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West are growing twilight areas as described in the Lambeth report. In Birmingham and many other towns where large numbers of immigrants have settled this is the case. Hon. Members interested in local authority work know and their housing managers, architects, town planners and town clerks know that the kind of problems with which our areas are faced, and the need for housing and improvement in redevelopment and remaking the areas, are precisely the same as those which existed before the immigrants arrived in those districts. I make no bones about saying that they have not altered the problem in our districts. This is true of any major city in the country, despite the loose talk that goes on. There is only one answer to the housing problem in those twilight areas. It is to improve and speed slum clearance and development procedures which at present slow down the work of local authorities.
  I am sure that local authorities do not use these powers for slum clearance and redevelopment programmes in some cases for fear of accusation by members of the public that they are rehousing immigrants. But this is important not just for immigrants. It affects the rest of the people—the native host population as well.
  As I said in an intervention earlier, there are very few people living in actual ghetto districts in this country. In the vast majority of areas where one finds Commonwealth immigrants there are even larger numbers of the host community living there as well. If we are going to have our slum clearance programmes distorted for fear of public reaction against local authorities rehousing immigrants in the worst housing districts, then it should be remembered by the public that there are also thousands and thousands of the host community and their children suffering the slum conditions as well. Their rehousing is also held back. Race relations are essentially a community problem, the whole community and not just a minority.

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  It is probable that the number of immigrants coming into the building industry in the last 10 years have added more to the housing programme than the number of houses they occupy in the twilight areas of our towns. This is not something to be sneezed at. These immigrant building workers have made a major contribution at a time when there is a short supply of labour.
  The general observations which I have been making were supported by the statements of evidence submitted to the Milner Holland Committee by the Centre of Urban Studies. This is the only organisation which has attempted to make some fairly precise demographic surveys of immigration. The bulk of the evidence supports the statements I have been making about the twilight areas not having been created by the immigrants. They were there already.
  It is also shown that there is a movement of the immigrant population. Immigrants come and settle down well into the community far better than is suggested by many wild and loose statements made in the Press and sometimes in the House. Certainly, immigration must be planned in relation to the nation's economic and social capacity. But the White Paper makes no attempt to explain how the Government will assess Britain's capacity to absorb Commonwealth immigrants, nor does it explain why Commonwealth citizens have been singled out for quota limitation when other immigrants are not so restricted.
  Some of the worst features of the aliens legislation are to be put in the Immigrants Act or are proposed in the White Paper. There is a ban on children aged between 16 and 18 joining their parents; entry conditions imposed include a time limit on the stay of students and others, there is registration with the police, deportation without due process of the courts. No one with respect for the rule of law or civil liberties will ever support any of this kind of legislation.
  Let us hope that now the legislation is not contained in the Queen's Speech and now that the independent committee is to be set up, we have seen the end of the proposals; that they are dead and will not return to the House.
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  The Prime Minister's suggestion about an independent committee to examine the question of appeals does not in my view go far enough. The Home Secretary's power to deport or impose conditions should not be agreed. The only way in which people should be deported from this country should be through due process of the courts. Everyone should have the right to be represented where a decision to deport is being made, and have appeal rights as well. It is these powers which have caused the greatest concern to many of us. However, as I say, there is an indication that we shall not see them come to the House now as legislative proposals for debate.
  1.45 a.m.
  I could go on to deal with the question of integration proposals, which have been discussed at some length. I merely say that I do not consider that Part III of the White Paper, dealing with the integration side—it has been commended even by some people who have criticised the White Paper in other respects—can be described as particularly satisfactory.
  I have made some reference to the paragraphs relating to the education circular and education policy. I only add at this stage that there is no indication in the White Paper nor Circular 7/65 that there will be any attempt by the Government to launch a major adult education campaign. But I consider this vitally important. If we are to continue to do the work of integrating the immigrants into the community, if we are to continue these powers, not to talk of extending them, and if at the same time we are going to justify this by talking about integration, we must launch a campaign for adult education. Also, we must take seriously the issue of the proper training of our teachers in colleges of education. These colleges are not providing sufficient facilities, if indeed they are providing any facilities, for the training of teachers in race relations, social anthropology and related matters.
  As to employment—this will be a matter of particular concern to the Minister of Labour, who will be replying —one can only describe the paragraphs in the White Paper as complacent. None of us will be much wiser after reading in paragraph 51:
  "This complex issue is being tackled in a number of effective, if unobstrusive, ways."

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  It does not tell us what these "effective, if unobstrusive, ways" are. Nor are we told in the White Paper whether there is any conception of the extent or character of the discrimination being practised against immigrants or their children and what is being done in different parts of the country to act against this kind of discrimination.
  To say, as the White Paper says on employment, that "there are indications that, in certain respects, discrimination still persists" is hardly an adequate description of the situation in which employment exchanges, in some instances at least, continue to mark some of their cards C.W. for coloured worker, when school leavers are discriminated against and youth employment officers, sometimes with the best will in the world, are having to accept the situation and not fight it, when promotion channels in industry and commerce are barred to immigrants and their children, when vacancies are being advertised to discriminate against coloured immigrants, and when the Minister of Labour is incapable of giving information when asked Questions in this Chamber on these subjects. I suggest that employment exchanges should refuse service to firms which persist in practising discrimination. This is some thing which even the Conservative Party said it would do. but it has been gone pack on in the White Paper. The Government should refuse contracts to firms which practise discrimination. They should legislate against discrimination in employment, as some of us urged at the lime when the Race Relations Bill was before the House.
  I have already referred to housing. Here again, the White Paper fails badly and does not deal with the subject properly. Indeed, it hardly touches upon the subject in a way that is a genuine discussion of the issue. Not a single reference is made to the fact that large parts of the housing market are closed to immigrants. I would also refer to the private Act whereby Birmingham established control over multi-occupied houses. As one who before coming to the House and since has advocated the establishment of control areas in twilight districts, I would support any measures in that direction. I put these schemes forward to the Milner Holland Committee when I gave evidence some time ago. But there are certain
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  serious faults in the Birmingham Act which gives concern to those of us who have read the White Paper. Under the Act it is possible for the Birmingham Corporation to refuse permission—
  The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member is now getting very wide of the matter we are discussing.
  Mr. Freeson: I will accept your Ruling, Sir Samuel, but this was specifically referred to in the White Paper and has been the subject of the discussion tonight. I will not pursue it further save to say that there are certain aspects of that Act which give powers to the local authority which could be abused and which are unnecessary in implementing the idea of control areas.
  The idea of special treatment for immigrants was rightly rejected. The White Paper says:
  "the sole test is the quality and nature of housing need without distinction based on the origins of those in need."
  But what of local authorities who plan their slum clearance programmes so as to avoid rehousing immigrants? What investigations have been made about this? This can lead to English people as well as immigrants being delayed in getting decent housing.
  One welcomes the strengthening of the National Committee and the establishment of voluntary liaison committees. However, a great deal of uncertainty exists about their precise relationship to the Government. There continues to be uncertainty about what Minister will be responsible. What is to be the relationship between these committees and Parliament and the Government? Will there be a Minister or a representative of a Minister on the National Committee or will it be the junior Minister from the Department of Economic Affairs? Or will there be a representative from the Ministry of Labour or the Department of Education and Science, or the Home Office? Will the committee report direct to the Prime Minister, or will it report to Parliament? Nobody knows.
  There are other departments which are concerned like the Home Office, the Ministries of Education, Labour, Housing and Health. Where is the co-ordination to be? Is it still to be kept at junior Minister level or are we to have some

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  genuine Ministerial responsibility for policy? Nobody knows the answers to these questions, and it seems that no thought has been given to them. Will there be a direct line of communication between the local authorities and the appropriate voluntary bodies, through the National Committee to the junior Minister or some other Ministers, and thus to Parliament and the Government? None of these points has been settled since the White Paper was published, as I have discovered from inquiries I have made of those concerned. There will be further opportunities for further questions about integration, but there is a great need for more information on what is to be the basis of the work of the local voluntary bodies in welfare and education as recommended in the White Paper.
  There will be a need for community development to be encouraged. We have tried some of these things in my area through our friendship council. Work needs to be done on individual relations between the immigrant and the host community where there are points of friction, in the home or anywhere else. We have tried to do this in my district. Investigation into discrimination in housing, employment and other related problems is needed locally. Above all, there is a need for these local liaison committees to concern themselves with civil liberties generally and with discrimination in public places and in housing. They must be encouraged to set an example to us, for we sorely need it. Racialism threatens us all and not just the immigrants. That is why some of us are so concerned about the deterioration in race relations which has gone on during the past year and which has been symptomatic in the production of the White Paper and its surrender under pressure from the Opposition and other quarters in the country.
  I hope that I have said enough[Laughter.]—there will be other occasions when I shall say even more—to raise some fundamental doubts of principle about the practice being followed by the Opposition and the Government as well as others in the country. I urge the establishment of a high-powered Committee of Inquiry to pursue further genuine studies into the whole subject of
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  immigration and the various related problems. Only by establishing such a high-powered committee can we get the vast mass of information which we need and get a proper evaluation of that information and start to establish the right kind of policy making which we are so far lacking.
  Meanwhile, in closing I want to repeat the five points which those of us who have been and will continue to be strong critics of the White Paper wish to see adopted as policy. First, we want an assurance that there will be no legislation as outlined in the White Paper originally; secondly, that there shall be established a full review of the alien and immigration law going further into the subject than the proposed independent committee on appeals procedure; thirdly, that there shall be established proper and permanent Departmental machinery for studying the background to immigration as a basis for policy making; fourthly, on the basis of that machinery and the basis of the work of the high powered committee of inquiry which I suggest, there shall be a review of the ceiling quota within a space of 12 to 18 months at most; fifthly, that meanwhile, particularly in the spirit in which so many hon. Members have spoken tonight, there shall be the most humane conduct of the controls which we still have with us, in the work of the Home Office and its immigration officials.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: At this late hour I shall not endeavour to answer all the points made in the very powerful attack of the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) on his own Front Bench, which is capable of answering for itself. However, I should like to comment on the earlier speeches and take first that of the hon. Member for Wandsworth, Central (Dr. David Kerr) who was so indignant about the White Paper, especially, apparently, on the ground that he thought that it contained colour prejudice. I was rather surprised by his making that attack, especially in view of his story about his grandfather. I can assure him that racial prejudice there may be, but that prejudice against immigrants is not confined to prejudice against coloured immigrants by a very long way.
  Mr. Buchan: The right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) said that the problem was precisely a colour problem.
  Mr. Wilson: I am saying that it is not, and I will reinforce that statement by remarking that what made me contemplate speaking in the debate, which I had no intention of doing when I first came into the Chamber, was the speech of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot).
  Both he and I are immigrants, Celts it may be, but we each represent constituencies in countries other than our own. I know his present constituency well by reason of my previous job and I know that, because of his family connections, he knows all about Cornwall. I can assure hon. Members that racial prejudice is not confined solely to questions of colour, because both in Wales and Cornwall to this day there has not been complete integration between English and Celts. Certainly that is so in Wales, and I have no hesitation in saying that it is so in Cornwall also.
  2.0 a.m.
  There is a definite, known and recognised distinction between the English and the local population. A very interesting thing was said to me on one occasion by a coloured man in my constituency. We have a local coloured population which has been there for two or three generations. They are people who are descended from the old seamen of the sailing ships. Every sailing ship always had a few coloured men, even the warships. A number of those coloured seamen settled in the West Country, and there is one particular family which has been there for three or four generations. This man said to me that Cornwall was the best place for a coloured man to live because, he said, "I am no more of a foreigner than you are." There is a distinction which is well known there.
  No one can talk to me about colour prejudice, because I think that I am probably the only Member present who has an Indian son-in-law. I have a grandson who is an Anglo-Indian. When one of my daughters proposed to marry an Indian I was a bit apprehensive. I have six other children and two other
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  sons-in-law, and I wondered what was going to happen. I give this as evidence —nothing happened at all. They all get on extremely well and it is no problem at all. If one faces this it just seems quite normal. This has happened and no problem has arisen.
  A large number of people of a quite different origin coming into a country create problems in the schools, in housing and other matters which are mentioned in the White Paper. There are certainly strong feelings about it, and my feeling is that one has to tackle this thing by stages, not take too big a jump at a time, otherwise one creates a racial problem and causes a great deal of prejudice. For those reasons, I think that basically the White Paper and the previous Act are necessary and that a measure of control is desirable. I do not think we do any good by getting too excited about this. We tend to talk too much about racial prejudice.
  Dr. M. S. Miller (Glasgow, Kelvin-grove): I shall not weary the Committee at this late stage by keeping it very long, but there are one or two points I would like to make. On Friday evening I visited a flat in my constituency to have an informal chat with some Nigerian undergraduate and post-graduate students. As I entered the room in which the informal talk was to take place, the music I heard was a Mozart concert on the Third Programme. So much for the feeling of the possibility of coloured people being under-cultured, which was voiced as a possibility by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas). He thought that very often some people in this country felt this way. I hasten to add that shortly afterwards, when the concert was ended, they switched on the television to watch the Miss World contest, which I thought was a very normal reaction, too.
  I have noticed that in the debate that there has been a certain amount of apologetic talk, a certain patronising attitude, and there has also been something of an insulting outlook as far as this problem is concerned. I want to put to the Committee the point of view that the Commonwealth immigrants have a contribution to make to our society, quite apart from economic necessity. Surely

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  we do not feel in this country that we are the last thing, that everything that we do, that all our habits, all our customs are the absolute zenith of perfection which humanity has yet achieved? Can we not learn—are we not learning—from the Commonwealth immigrants whom we have in our community at the moment? Are we not learning new sounds from them, in music and language? Are we not learning something about colour from them—and I mean colour in every way, such as the colour of dress? Are we not learning from them things that we would never have learned, apart entirely from the economic advantage which they bring to us?
  We ought to be prepared to pay something for this. We ought to be prepared to do something for people who are bringing these advantages to us. Commonwealth citizens come to this country because they wish to work here. Anyone who believes that they come to claim National Assistance has merely to inquire at the National Assistance Board offices to find out how untrue this is.
  As I say, they have made a significant contribution to our economy. Think of what would happen, as has been said by many hon. Members, in medicine, nursing and transport if we did not have these Commonwealth immigrants. We have also a moral obligation to them. At one fell swoop the number of immigrants into the country is to be reduced to 8,500, in spite of the fact that there are jobs for more of them.
  I am not sure what we are afraid of. Are we afraid that they will gather in huge numbers in areas and remain there? Surely the experience of other immigrant groups into this country has been that while they have congregated with people of their own kind to begin with, eventually they moved out and mixed with the rest of the community. I believe that the immigrant groups into this country have integrated, not assimilated. I do not believe that it is necessary for groups to assimilate. They have integrated into the community and have retained to a great extent many of their own customs—and why not? The Scots, the Welsh and Irish do the same
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  thing. When the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish moved out to other parts of the world they also retained their own identities in those parts. They retained their identities in Canada, the United States, New Zealand and Australia. They did not assimilate. They integrated.
  We find there is a sudden attempt by the Government to out-Herod Herod, a clamping down too stringently on the conditions of entry for immigrants. I asked—and I was answered by my right hon. and learned Friend—what would happen if a natural disaster overtook a Commonwealth country, necessitating our receiving a large influx of immigrants from that country, such as happened with Tristan da Cunha. I was informed that facilities would be made available to admit people to this country from an area which met a similar fate. I did not receive a reply as to whether this would also apply to the possibility of a very large number of Commonwealth citizens requesting admission to this country from Rhodesia where also a devastating situation has occurred.
  I should like my right hon. and learned Friend, when he replies, to say whether he would consider the possibility of making this necessity of clamping down a temporary one. There has been no indication of this, although, if we solve some of the problems which have been indicated as being the difficulties involved, I do not see why, at the end of a certain length of time, once those difficulties have been resolved, we do not revert to our previous position.
  What I am concerned about is the moral values. I am concerned that we have an important and sincere obligation to our people from Commonwealth countries. I am also looking at it from a practical point of view. We are facing in the world today an eventual confrontation. I think that we are building up in the world to a situation in which the coloured and the non-coloured nations, or the coloured and the colourless nations, will face each other eventually and there will come a reckoning. I venture to suggest that we should be trying to build up in this country for the future as great a store of good will as we possibly can.
  Mr. Gunter Mr. Gunter rose—
  Mr. Buchan: May I ask your guidance, Sir Samuel? I was about to speak and, as far as I know, the debate is not restricted in time.
  The Chairman: The hon. Member is perfectly correct. We are in Committee.
  Mr. Gunter: I hope to command the affection of the House by being very brief. The main purpose of my intervention, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary mentioned at the outset, is to say a few words about the introduction of the voucher system. Before doing that, however, I should like, in view of some of the comments which have been made from the benches behind me, to ask my hon. Friends to recognise that we can differ with equal sincerity.
  There has been something a little lower than the best level of the House of Commons in the suggestion that some of us who defend the White Paper do so because, somehow, we are tainted with some form of racialism. As the Christian Gospel has been quoted, as well as morality and ethics. I should like to say, and I do so humbly and sincerely, that I defend my stand on the White Paper on the very standpoint of the Christian Gospel. If hon. Members quote the Gospel, as they have done, they had better also pay attention to other parts of it; and one of the most telling sentences in the whole of the Synoptic Gospels is
  "Lead us not into temptation".
  If people consciously and deliberately create a situation in which circumstances may come which they cannot control, they are being tainted rather by self-righteousness than by taking their stand on the standpoint of the Christian Gospel.
  Mr. Michael Foot: Does my right hon. Friend recall that the first people who, in debating these matters, raised the question of ethics, morality and Christianity were the leaders of the Labour Party, headed by the late Mr. Hugh Gaitskell, who attacked the Commonwealth Immigration Bill of 1962 on the ground that it was racialist, and, therefore, that those of us who have repeated that argument today had a very good precedent?
  Mr. Gunter: There may he a precedent. I am dealing with tonight's debate, and I bitterly resent the un-Christian suggestion that some of us who believe that we ought not to allow circumstances to
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  arise that could create an explosion in this country are motivated by any form of racialism.
  2.15 a.m.
  I am convinced that we are right in paying attention to the dangers that we are in. There has been no denial at all about some of the problems with which we are confronted. The hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) and the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) can both talk very nicely, very justifiably and very sincerely about what has happened in Willesden, and I happen to know that some great work has been done. On the other hand, whatever may be the situation in Willesden, the situation in other parts of London, in the Midlands and in Bradford, is brimful of possibilities because of the housing situation.
  It is not my desire to keep the House and dwell upon matters that have already been analysed in the field of education, but do not let us imagine for one moment that we serve any good purpose by sweeping these difficulties under the carpet. It cannot be done. We have to face them.
  There is no question of racialism. The point that I am trying to make is that we should not allow the floodgates to be opened to the extent that we cannot contain the problem, and, in defending the White Paper, I hope that we can hold equally sincere views.
  It was suggested that I might have something to say about vouchers, but, before I turn to that point, may I say a word about industry, because it is closely connected with it? The hon. Member for Willesden, East mentioned tensions in industry, and they are there. No one knows better than I do the tensions that are in industry at present. It is useless to dismiss them and say that it is merely a matter of education.
  I want to use the example that the hon. Member himself suggested to me. He viewed with great disfavour the fact that managers of employment exchanges mark employment cards "C.W.". He condemned officials of my Ministry for presuming to put the letters "C.W." on cards. But this is the other side of the coin. They do it from a sense of Christian charity, because they know that if they send a man to a works he will be

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  humiliated, often not because the management wants to humiliate him but because the management knows that the men on the workshop floor will not accept him.
  Mr. Heffer: Oh, dear.
  Mr. Gunter: The hon. Member may say, "Oh, dear".
  Mr. Heffer: I know something about it. I have worked with them.
  Mr. Gunter: I must be careful here. The hon. Member knows full well that there are industrial disputes that arise today because white workers will not allow promotion to be given to a coloured man who is very often very competent indeed.
  There are industrial tensions, and what we have to consider is how much we can contend with prejudice in industry itself. I would like to see it disappear overnight, but we know that it will not. However, it is a reasonable proposition that we should only have on the numerical strength those whom we can contain. It has been asked how we arrived at the figure. We arranged for 8,500, which included the special allowance for Malta.
  Hon. Members have asked to be told the statistical basis on which this figure was arrived at. They have asked whether special surveys were carried out, and what prior consultations there were with local authorities, the T.U.C., employers' organisations, and so on. In a matter such as this, it is impossible to arrive at a decision with any mathematical precision. This is essentially an exercise of judgment by the Government. It is a political decision. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have said that this was approximately half the usual number. In preparing the White Paper we assumed that this was a fair and reasonable number, based on the information that we had, including the information that was provided by the Mountbatten Report.
  Another question asked was how the limit was reconcilable with the forecast of labour shortages. We must think in terms of the circumstances in which a labour shortage may arise, and the nature of that shortage. The National Plan may not be specific on this point, but the fact is that the burning need in this country today—and my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East knows this as well as
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  I do—is for skilled labour. In every industry there is a demand for skilled labour. Indeed, all industrial societies today are finding that the demand for unskilled labour is falling all the time. One cannot fill the 200,000 vacancies for skilled workers, to which reference has been made, by the introduction of 200,000 unskilled workers.
  The next point with which I should like to deal in regard to category B vouchers is the allegation that we are skimming off the cream of the Commonwealth. In a sense this is true. It would be a fine thing if every doctor, teacher and trained nurse from the Commonwealth either stayed in his own country or went to other underdeveloped countries if there was any surplus at all. That would be the ideal situation, but we have a right to look after our interests, too. If a Commonwealth country did not want to export its trained skilled people, it could easily put a stop to it. We export our brains, and we are blamed for that, and it is therefore reasonable that there should be some importation of brains and skill from the Commonwealth.
  I think that there is a need for greater knowledge about the whole situation, because I should like to know how many of the trained nurses, doctors, and teachers, who come here go back to their own countries after six, seven, or eight years. The desire to come here originates from the immigrants themselves, and if their countries do not want to lose their skilled services they could take the appropriate steps to prevent them leaving, but I see no earthly reason why we, as British people, should not expect skilled people to make some contribution to our economy if they are desirous of doing so.
  This has not been a debate on the economic problems involved in this question. It has been a debate on the social problems inherent in it. The question of unemployment does not come into this issue. The old fable that half the immigrants are on National Insurance is a lot of balderdash. The latest figures from my Ministry show that unemployment among immigrants is not a major problem today. On 1st November, there were only 7,016 adult immigrants unemployed in the country, which

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  is about 2·3 per cent. of the adult unemployed. Therefore, that is not the problem. What we are arguing in the White Paper, and the reason that we are asking for the Bill tonight, is that we require time to deal with these problems. Whatever may have been said in the House tonight, the country is, in many cases, bursting at the seams.
  I know that there is a good deal of idealism behind many of the speeches which have been made tonight. Let it a ways be so, but let us always be mindful of the fact that there are deep rooted problems which time alone will cure. Mention has been made of the Welsh and the Scottish. It took a couple of generations for the Welsh people who came to Slough to make peace with their ancient enemies in England. Reading the Press in Slough when Welshmen were pouring into that area is indicative of the prejudices of today. The Welsh were called lazy and all manner of names, but they got over it. All we ask is that we be given time. I therefore commend the Bill to the Cemmittee.
  Mr. Buchan: I had intended to speak only very briefly. I had three reasons for speaking tonight. The first is that I was asked last week by my hon. Friends to stay on in similar circumstances to make a two-minute intervention so I think that I am justified in asking them to stay on tonight to listen to me. My second reason is that we are dealing with a matter which goes right to the vitals and the core of democracy. The third is that I have been horrified, really horrified, by what I have heard from the benches opposite. I now have a fourth reason—the Minister of Labour's speech.
  He said that he resented the suggestion that some hon. Members below the Gangway on this side have suggested that the Government Front Bench are tainted with racialism. With respect, I have not heard such a charge, but, since he has raised the matter, I think that there is a charge—not that the Government are tainted with racialism, but that they have capitulated to racialism. I think that the Committee will see in a moment that this is the real charge.
  My right hon. Friend was right to say that we should look at this problem from a moral point of view, and he said, quite correctly. that he looks at it from a
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  Christian point of view. We are also entitled to point out that, when the Labour Party fought against all the implications of the Bill three years ago, it was largely on a moral and Christian basis that it was fought. When we look for the reasons for the change since then, many of us can see little beyond a capitulation to racialism.
  We are told that it is a question of housing. I come from the most overcrowded city in Western Europe—the slums of Glasgow—and how many immigrants live there? It is not a problem there. It is not the presence of immigrants which has caused the housing chaos in Glasgow. It is not housing that is the reason for the present problem in England. It is the colour problem. This is what is causing the difficulty. For once the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) was correct. After all, my country has been exporting 30,000 people a year to England, but I have not heard any complaints about it. The right hon. Member for Monmouth does not complain about the Scots people occupying houses in England—[An HON. MEMBER: "He does."] Well, he had better not say so in my area.
  I am sorry that the Minister of Labour has gone, since he made a speech which I was about to answer. [Interruption.] I am right; he is not here. But there is another hon. Member missing, who ought to have known better than to be absent when we are having a debate on immigration, and it is about him also that I want to speak later. I refer to the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Peter Griffiths).
  2.30 a.m.
  We are told it is a housing problem, a shortage because houses are being occupied by coloured immigrants. But if a coloured worker needs to occupy a house, cannot he also build one? We heard earlier about the problems of the hospitals and the Home Office figures of illness among the population. I know the position. But if an immigrant needs a hospital bed, they also man the hospitals. I was in a London hospital for three weeks last Easter. What would happen if we did not have our coloured nurses, doctors, ward maids and other medical workers? The hospital service in the South-East would collapse,

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  so that any members of the white population also who became ill would be in a sorry plight.
  The Minister of Labour referred to the floodgates in his remarks. We could not open them, he said. But no one is asking for them to be opened. The immigration statistics follow the normal economic course of demand. Are not hon. Gentlemen opposite interested in the demands and law of the market? If the jobs are there the immigrants will seek them, but that has nothing to do with opening floodgates.
  One hon. Gentleman opposite said earlier that 8,500 immigrants a year would represent a total of half a million dependents. That would be 40 apiece—not a family, a clan. We fought wars in Scotland with clans of smaller proportions.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) made a remarkable speech. I will comment on it later and make certain recommendations about it. For a start, his words should be engraved on the hearts of some of my right hon. Friends, or at least filed somewhere handy in their offices. My hon. Friend spoke about this business of cards being marked "coloured worker" when these "laddies" were sent out by the labour exchanges. I like these terms. "Laddie" sounds nice. So does "the little ones", which was used by the Joint Under-Secretary. It is not compassionate phrases we want, but some compassionate action. Since is was pointed out how humiliated these laddies might become if "C.W."—coloured worker—were stamped on their cards, what is the Minister of Labour doing about it? This is the question he should answer.
  When hon. Members speak about statistics, they are told that it is impossible to arrive at a decision on a mathematical basis. If that is so, how have the Government arrived at the precise statistics mentioned in the White Paper —such as precisely 8,500 immigrants a year, with precisely 1,000 of them coming from Malta, leaving precisely 7,500 for the rest of the Commonwealth? We even have the exact figure of 15 per cent. per country. What could be more precise? We are, therefore, entitled to ask for the certain statistics on which the Government bases its case.
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  When we raise other matters the Minister of Labour says that this issue is not dealing with an economic problem. What about the 200,000 workers mentioned in the National Plan? "No," my right hon. Friend replies, because, he claims, we are dealing with a shortage of skilled workers, while these are unskilled. But, paragraph 5 of the White Paper states:
  "Category A is for applications by employers in this country who have a specific job to offer to a particular Commonwealth citizen".
  There is no reference there to skilled workers. But the vacancy exists. They are there to fill it. It goes on:
  "Category B is for applications by Commonwealth citizens without a specific job to come to but with certain special qualifications (e.g. nurses, teachers, doctors) …"
  —in other words, skilled workers. Thus, my right hon. Friend's argument bears no relation whatever to the problem nor the facts we are discussing. He ended by saying, "Give us time, because we are bursting at the seams." We who live in Glasgow, which has been bursting at the seams for half a century, somehow cope with the situation without exacerbating the colour problem. We have other colour problems. A friend of mine looked at a television programme about mixed marriage—a Glasgow man. After a quarter of an hour he was still waiting for the mixed marriage to take place; the programme was only about black and white, and he was waiting for the orange-and-green marriage to take place.
  I hope our own Front Bench will listen to just one warning tonight. It is that we cannot outflank the racialists. If we drop the number from 20,000 to 8,000, the demand will be to drop it to zero. That is precisely what has happened tonight—the hon. Members for Harborough (Mr. Farr), for Rugby (Mr. Wise) and for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) say "Let us close the door altogether." We cannot outflank the racialists. No matter how we try they will always outflank us. If it is zero next year, and we say "Don't accuse us of not being Christian, we have just dropped the figure to zero," we will be told that it is time to send these people back home.
  There is a ghost hovering in this Chamber tonight. It is the ghost of Banquo missing from the banquet; it is the member for Smethwick. That is where it all

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  began—with the victory at Smethwick. There we had the same problem of housing as in the rest of the Midlands—we have been told that it is a housing problem. There we had the same problems of education and health as the rest of the Midlands—we have been told that it is an education and health problem. But what happened in the rest of the Midlands? There was a 2 per cent. swing to Labour, but, in Smethwick, a swing to the Tories of 7 per cent.
  Why was that? It was because into this Galbraith syndrome of private affluence and public squalor was thrown two other factors, colour and its political exploitation. It was the political exploitation here that frightened many people; the articles which said that at last the Conservative Party had an instrument that could erode the traditional working-class support for the Labour Party, and Smethwick was the proof. A month later the hon. Member for Smethwick was telling the London Young Conservatives that a firm line on immigration would mean 20 more seats at the General Election. Has the Opposition Front Bench dissociated itself from the hon. Member's view? Have they said that they reject it? On the contrary, they are now beginning—not just the back benchers and the mad backwoodsmen who want to shut the door, but the whole of the Opposition Front Bench—to speak in similar terms?
  The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South-West (Mr. Powell) is the man who rejects planning. He says we cannot plan industry, we cannot plan our economy, we cannot plan our incomes policy—that is far too difficult and complex. We must leave it to the market. But he says that we can plan human beings, the most complex and intricate of all things. The right hon. Gentleman says we can plan human beings. Even our sea-green incorruptible, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, is swinging on to this immigration band wagon. And the cheers at the Caxton Hall two nights ago suggest that other elements of the party opposite are also beginning to swing on to that band wagon. I warn the Front Bench opposite. as I have warned our own: "You can't outflank the racialists." These people who are getting up at the Caxton Hall are the very people who will push you even further than you want to go. The only thing one can do with racialism is not
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  to capitulate to it or try to outflank it, but to fight it. As we go through the Rhodesian crisis, let no one be fooled that many Rhodesians have not been encouraged by the actions we have taken and the attitude towards immigration developing this country. This too we must keep in mind.
  Still we see the Tory Party refusing to dissociate itself from those elements which are making the running. We see this developing not only in the febrile outpourings but in extremely intelligent documents with loaded questions such as, "Do you approve of coloured workers coming in as a source of cheap labour?" This is the kind of new mood which is coming into the racial question. There are dangerous people involved here. We in the Labour Party also have responsibility because we have failed to fight it and have capitulated. Let us be clear that it will strike at the vitals and the whole dynamic and core of the Labour Party if we give way on this.
  We all know that the figures in the White Paper are designed to keep out coloured immigrants. We do not kid ourselves any more. No one can give us the argument that this applies to all Commonwealth immigrants; we know that it is designed against coloured immigrants. We are told that we should give time for this policy to develop, but all that does is to say that there is something wrong about coloured immigrants as such and so we give the argument to the racialists.
  I was not one who laughed when my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East said, "I have said enough", but he did not say nearly enough. What he said was very much to the heart and core of what we need within the Labour Party. I hope that a copy of his speech will be sent to every Government office. I hope that a copy will be sent to No. 10 Downing Street, that a copy will be sent to the Ministry of Labour and a copy to the, Home Office. I hope that a copy will be sent to every council office throughout the length and breadth of the land.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The Amendment which I moved some few hours ago has been the occasion of a fairly wide debate. Despite some thin whispers of controversy which I seemed to detect in the last speech, I am not disposed to inflict on the Committee a further contribution,

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  although it would be a very valuable addition to the discussion which has taken place. As it was a technical one, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Schedule agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

  AIR CORPORATIONS [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the capital reconstruction of the British Overseas Airways Corporation, it is expedient to authorise—

  A. The remission, on such terms as may be provided by the said Act, of any obligation of the Corporation to make payments under section 42 of the Finance Act 1956 or section 3 of the Air Corporations Act 1962, in respect of sums advanced under those sections before 1st April 1965;

  B. The transfer to the Treasury, on such terms as may be so provided, of all rights and liabilities of the Corporation in respect of stock issued before 1st April 1965, under the Air Corporations Act 1949 or any enactment repealed by that Act, the treatment of that stock as if it had been created and issued under the National Loans Act 1939 and the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required by the Treasury for making payments to the Corporation under transitional provisions of the said Act of the present Session relating to that stock;

  C. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any sums required by the Minister of Aviation for making payments to the Corporation on terms which provide for the making of payments to the Minister out of the profits and reserves of the Corporation, being sums and aggregate of which, taken together with the aggregate amount outstanding in respect of the principal of
  472
  moneys borrowed by the Corporation, does not exceed the limit imposed by section 12(1) of the said Act of 1949 as for the time being in force;

  D. The payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to fulfil any guarantee by the Treasury in respect of foreign currency debts of the Corporation or of the British European Airways Corporation;

  E. The payment into the Exchequer and the re-issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to be so paid or re-issued by virtue of any provision of the said Act of the present Session.

  Resolution agreed to.

  WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE
  Ordered,
  That for the remainder of the present Session the following paragraphs shall have effect: —

  (1) There shall be a Standing Committee to be known as the Welsh Grand Committee to consider such specified matters relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire as may be referred to them and to consist of all Members sitting for constituencies in Wales and Monmouthshire, together with not more than Five other Members to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, who shall have power from time to time to discharge the Members so nominated by them and to appoint others in substitution for those discharged;

  (2) A Motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of Public Business, to be decided without amendment or debate, to the effect that a specified matter or matters relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration;

  (3) If such a Motion be agreed to, the Welsh Grand Committee shall consider the matter or matters to them referred on not more than Four days in a Session, and shall report only that they have considered the said matter or matters.—[Mrs. Harriet Slater.]

STAFFORDSHIRE MEDICAL SER VICE COMMITTEE (CHILD'S DEATH)
2.45 a.m.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mrs. Harriet Slater.]
Mr. Robert Edwards: apologise for keeping you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the staff out of bed for another half an hour so early in the morning, but I have a duty to perform on behalf of my constituency. It is a duty relating to the difficulty of registering legitimate complaints against the Health Service. In particular, my purpose is to ventilate the tragic case of the death of a boy of five years of age.
I always dislike criticising dedicated people, and far be it for me to criticise the medical profession. They are dedicated people, overworked, harassed and, I think, underpaid. Nevertheless, in our democracy, we cannot allow them, as we often do, to live in ivory towers, above criticism and often above public accountability.
The case I want to draw the attention of the Ministry of Health to is the case of Thomas Gripton, a boy aged five, who died on 10th January, this year. This boy was the only child of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Gripton, constituents of mine.
The boy felt ill on 14th December and a doctor was called in and the boy was treated for constipation. Later, the boy was worse and another doctor from the same practice came and treated him for tonsilitis. The boy was in great pain and so the father frantically went to the doctor's surgery and brought the doctor to his home. The boy was immediately taken to hospital and operated on. On 10th January, this little boy, who had lived for so few years, died from peritonitis. It is not for me to criticise what went wrong. I want to express no opinion. But you can imagine the dreadful nightmare of emotion which the parents went through. The husband, Mr. Thomas Gripton, was off work for five weeks in a state of nervous collapse. Ultimately, the parents thought that some investigation into the circumstances of their only child's death should be undertaken.
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Mr. Gripton wrote to the clerk of the Staffordshire Executive Committee of the Ministry of Health on 12th February asking that the case should be investigated. That was one month and two days after the death of his son. He received a letter from the clerk on 25th March which stated that the committee noted that the complaint was more than two months out of date and found itself unable to accept as reasonable the grounds given by Mr. Gripton for delay. That was in reply to a very friendly letter, a pathetically friendly letter, from the father who just wanted his son's case investigated. The committee was there to see that justice was done in cases of this nature.
The committee gauged the time from the first visit of the doctor on 14th December rather than from 10th January when the boy died. Apparently it was within its rights according to the regulations, which state that complaints must be made within six weeks of the visit of the doctor. These seem to me to be fantastic regulations. How can one make a complaint if the person concerned is sick for many weeks and dies after the time for making a complaint has expired? It is clear that the regulations need amending.
Mr. Gripton came to see me and I wrote to the Minister. Unfortunately, I got the reply that one usually gets from Ministers. The Department did not want to go over the head of the committee. The Minister stated that the regulations laid down that there could be only six weeks' delay in reporting a complaint, and that nothing could be done. However, looking at the regulations I observed that, although complaints should be made within six weeks, the committee has the right to extend the period if the person complaining has been ill. The father was ill for five weeks, receiving medical attention and also sickness benefit based on medical certificates issued by the National Health Service. Yet the committee clerk did not bother to lift the telephone and inquire whether the complainant was ill. Had this been done, the case could have been investigated within the regulations.
One can make a complaint six months after receiving attention from a dentist, but in the case of the medical profession it is only six weeks. I tried to get this matter debated last session.

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but I was not fortunate. Meanwhile, although I advised him to the contrary, my constituent still wanted this matter investigated.
These are good people, and Mr. Gripton is a skilled craftsman and hardworking man. But he felt that unless there was some machinery for complaints what had happened to his son could happen to others. Therefore, he wanted the matter pursued and even took legal action. The case was lost, and it is not for me to discuss the decision of the learned judges in the divisional court. However, it is monstrous that a workman should have to spend his hard-earned money going to law to get the death of his son, which occurred in very exceptional circumstances, investigated when there is machinery established for this purpose. So we are discussing the matter now. It is not a case of wanting to, and I am sure Mr. Gripton did not want to pursue this course. Doctors are human beings and, like everyone else, they make mistakes. It may be difficult to discover whether peritonitis, constipation and tonsilitis are related. I do not want to pass judgment, but there is a necessity for machinery to investigate the complaints which occasionally arise.
In my constituency, Councillor Wagstaff dared to criticise a doctor whose surgery was closed for four days over Whitsun. He did it legitimately and democratically in the local council and did not mention the name of the doctor or the place of the surgery. The doctor removed the councillor and his family from his panel. In another case a lady was involved in a car accident with the doctor's car. Unwillingly she was dragged into court to give evidence against her doctor and she was removed from the panel. There are a minority of doctors who seem to imagine they are above criticism and are not publicly accountable as are most public servants.
Therefore, I beg my hon. Friend to look at the case of Mr. Gripton's son very seriously. It is a human case of great tragedy. The boy cannot be brought back to life, but at least we can guarantee to the citizens whom we represent that if they feel aggrieved, as these parents do, there is some safety valve.
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There is a maxim which says that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done. In this case the parents, their neighbours and Mr. Gripton's workmates, feel that not only has justice not been seen to be done but that there has been no justice and no means of investigating a very serious charge which involved this good family in such a dreadful tragedy. I hope my hon. Friend will have a new look at the regulations so that cases of this description will never occur again.
3.0 a.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Charles Loughlin): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bilston (Mr. Robert Edwards) for raising tonight the question of the application of the time limits in the case of the complaint by Mr. Gripton about the treatment provided for his son. We had a debate on another medical service committee case about a fortnight ago, when my right hon. Friend said that the events leading up to the complaint against a general practitioner were often of a distressing character. The death of a young and only child is especially sad, and I can well appreciate the emotion with which my hon. Friend has been faced in presenting the case this morning. I should like to take the opportunity to express my deep sympathy with Mr. and Mrs. Gripton.
As my hon. Friend has said, the main facts of the case are clear. Mr. Gripton wrote to the Staffordshire Executive Council on 26th February saying that his son had been taken ill on 14th December and that when the doctor called Mrs. Gripton told him that she feared that the boy had appendicitis but that the doctor thought that it was no more than constipation. Mr. Gripton also said that another doctor, the partner of the first, called on 17th December and, as my hon. Friend rightly said, diagnosed septic tonsils. The second doctor had to be called again on 19th December when she obtained the boy's admission to hospital for an emergency operation for peritonitis, but, unfortunately, the little boy died on 10th January.
The executive council wrote to Mr. Gripton on 1st March explaining that the complaint had been made later than the six weeks allowed by the regulations for

477
making complaints and that his complaint could riot be considered unless he could show reasonable cause for the delay. He replied saying that he had been ill for five weeks and had still been suffering from shock after that and that his wife had still not recovered from the shock. The correspondence was then put before the medical service committee of the Staffordshire Executive Council and, on 23rd March, the clerk wrote again to Mr. Gripton saying that the committee noted that the complaint was more than two months out of date—though strictly that should have read more than two months after the event—and that the committee found itself unable to accept as reasonable the ground which he gave for the delay. Mr. Gripton then consulted a solicitor who also corresponded with the executive council. I will deal with that matter later.
The service committee procedure is domestic to the National Health Service, but it can result in a practitioner being judged to be in breach of his terms of service, that is, of having failed to comply with his contract with the executive council and, in some cases, in withholdings being made from his remuneration. Because of this, it is necessary that there should be rules governing the way in which matters are referred to and dealt with by the committee to ensure that justice is done and seen to be done. The rules are laid down in the National Health Service (Service Committees and Tribunal) Regulations.
A doctor cannot be held to be at fault solely by virtue of his failing to come to the right conclusion about the nature of a disorder or right treatment to prescribe, as he is no more infallible than other men.
At the other extreme nobody could possibly accept incompetent or negligent care as a satisfactory standard of treatment under the National Health Service. What can be expected of a doctor is that he should maintain the standards which n ordinary, reasonable practitioner could be expected to maintain. This is the standard that is expected in the National Health Service, and it is the criterion by which the services committee is guided when it is investigating a complaint that a doctor is in breach of his terms of service.
478
The first purpose of the service committee procedure is to investigate the allegations made by the complainant so as to establish the facts on which a decision can be made. The longer the delay between the event and the investigation, the more difficult it becomes to establish the facts. It is easier for the complainant to remember the facts, as it is his own case, than for the practitioner, who is treating many people every day. There must also be some limit to the time during which a practitioner can be asked to account for his actions on a particular occasion. There must, therefore, be some limit after which the complaint cannot be investigated. Under the regulations, the normal time for a complaint against a general practitioner is six weeks after the event which gave rise to the complaint. There are times when, with the best will in the world, a person is unable to make a complaint within this period, and it would not be right to make an absolute bar at this point.
The Regulations also provide that the service committee may investigate a complaint if it is satisfied that the delay in lodging it is due to illness or other reasonable cause, provided it is made within two months after the event or, if it is later still, it may so decide only if the consent of the general practitioner or the Minister's consent is obtained in addition. My hon. Friend will notice that the decision whether a complaint that is made after more than six weeks should be investigated is for the service committee to make, and that there is no appeal to the Minister from its decision. He is only asked for his consent to the service committee investigating the case if it is satisfied that there was reasonable cause, and, in practice, only when the complaint is made more than two months after the event and the practitioner has not given his consent to the investigation.
When the Staffordshire Medical Service Committee came to consider Mr. Gripton's complaint, it decided that the events which gave rise to the complaint were the visits of the general practitioners between 14th and 19th December. On this view Mr. Gripton's complaint was made more than six weeks after the event and could therefore only be investigated by the service committee if it was satisfied that there was reasonable cause for the delay. As I said earlier, the decision

479
whether there was reasonable cause was a matter solely for the service committee. I should explain here that some of the members of the committee are laymen and some are doctors. I would not wish to enter into a discussion whether the Staffordshire Medical Service Committee came to the right conclusion in this case, as the service committee procedure is the statutory method of investigating complaints and the regulations governing the procedure leave the matter to the opinion of the committee and give my right hon. Friend no part in it.
When my right hon. Friend wrote to the Minister I know that he may have been disappointed by the reply he received. I can assure him that my Minister gave a reply in the terms of the regulations, and I feel sure that my hon. Friend will accept that he is a very sympathetic and understanding person. The reason for the disappointing reply was solely that he had no power to go outside the regulations. I will only say that the composition of the committee is specifically designed to ensure that the body which considers these difficult questions combines the viewpoint of persons outside the profession with the specialised knowledge which is only available within it.
The solicitor whom Mr. Gripton consulted challenged the decision of the medical services committee on two points: the first was the date of the event which gave rise to the complaint which the Committee had taken to be some time in the middle of December when the general practitioner visited Mr. Gripton's son—and the second was whether it had considered the case in the manner required by the regulations. Following this correspondence, an application was made on behalf of Mr. Gripton to the High Court directed to requiring the service committee to consider the complaint. The application was heard last week and was refused.
The question might be asked whether the normal period of six weeks for making complaints is long enough. I am aware that this question causes concern to many people, and my right hon.
480
Friend is, in fact, in the course of examining the time limit, together with other aspects of the service committee procedure, with the representatives of the medical profession as part of the negotiations that are now taking place on the Doctors' Charter. My hon. Friend will, I am sure, not wish to press me to say more than that at this stage.
If I may, I will for a moment touch on the other matter raised by my hon. Friend, the removal of a patient's name from a doctor's list. I have had a number of these cases, and they are very difficult, particularly when the doctor not merely strikes off the individual concerned but, in one case that was cited, strikes off the family, too. It is a problem, and an executive council has no discretion in this matter. The right of a doctor to remove a patient from his list is, of course, complementary to the patient's right to change his doctor. If a doctor applies to have a patient's name removed from his list the executive council must comply with his request, and no other arrangement would work because confidence and good will on both sides are essential to the relations between doctor and patient. The executive council will, if there is need, arrange for another practitioner to take the patient on to his list.
My hon. Friend wrote to the Minister about Mr. Gripton's complaint and some of what I have said tonight was explained to him then. But I am sure that the debate tonight has been valuable. It comes at a time when a lot of thought is being given to the general practitioner service. I shall tell my right hon. Friend about the points that my hon. Friend made in his speech, and I am sure he will consider them further with other aspects of the procedure.
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this matter. I think it is right that it should have been raised. I noticed that he apologised in the first part of his speech. If he intended part of that apology for me, I can tell him that he has no need to apologise at all.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at fourteen minutes past Three o'clock a.m.

MINISTRY OF POWER
  Gas, Wales (Price)
  Gas, Wales (Price)
  Gas and Electricity Supplies
  Gas and Electricity Supplies
  Opencast Mining Site, Coldrife
  Opencast Mining Site, Coldrife
  Opencast Mining, Cramlington
  Opencast Mining, Cramlington
  Mining Apprenticeship Scheme
  Mining Apprenticeship Scheme
  Advertising (Cost)
  Advertising (Cost)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Kenya
  Kenya
  Rhodesia (Loans)
  Rhodesia (Loans)
  Aid Programme
  Aid Programme
MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY
  Computers
  Computers
  Machine Tools
  Machine Tools
  Establishment, Chapelcross
  Establishment, Chapelcross
  Prototype Fast Reactor (Siting)
  Prototype Fast Reactor (Siting)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Capital Gains (Calculation)
  Capital Gains (Calculation)
  Public Houses (Assessment for Rating)
  Public Houses (Assessment for Rating)
  Computers (Government Departments)
  Computers (Government Departments)
  Scientific Officers (Moving Expenses)
  Scientific Officers (Moving Expenses)
HOUSING
  Old Houses (Improvement Works)
  Old Houses (Improvement Works)
  Slum Clearance and Comprehensive Development Areas
  Slum Clearance and Comprehensive Development Areas
  Rent Act (Publicity Campaign)
  Rent Act (Publicity Campaign)
  Pre-Fabricated Bungalows, Birmingham
  Pre-Fabricated Bungalows, Birmingham
  Discretionary Grants
  Discretionary Grants
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Manchester Draft Water Order, 1965
  Manchester Draft Water Order, 1965
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Remembrance Sunday (Rhodesian Dead)
  Remembrance Sunday (Rhodesian Dead)
  Mr. Leo Baron
  Mr. Leo Baron
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Homosexuality
  Homosexuality
  Fireworks
  Fireworks
BOARD OF TRADE
  E.F.T.A. Countries (Exports)
  E.F.T.A. Countries (Exports)
  United Nations Trade and Development Board (Ministerial Representation)
  United Nations Trade and Development Board (Ministerial Representation)
  Redundant Coal Miners (Alternative Employment)
  Redundant Coal Miners (Alternative Employment)
SCOTLAND
  Electricity Supply, Irvine Area
  Electricity Supply, Irvine Area
  Police Dogs
  Police Dogs
  Milk in Schools (Cost)
  Milk in Schools (Cost)
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  Steel Industry (Redundancies)
  Steel Industry (Redundancies)
  TELEVISION (POLITICAL DISCUSSION PROGRAMMES)
  TELEVISION (POLITICAL DISCUSSION PROGRAMMES)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Egg Marketing Board (Accounting Arrangements)
  Egg Marketing Board (Accounting Arrangements)
  Wood Pigeons
  Wood Pigeons
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Prestwick Airport (Concord Operations)
  Prestwick Airport (Concord Operations)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Submarine Service (Cost)
  Submarine Service (Cost)
  Regular Army Reserve
  Regular Army Reserve
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Colleges of Education (Shortened Courses)
  Colleges of Education (Shortened Courses)
  Technical Colleges (Teacher Training)
  Technical Colleges (Teacher Training)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Dwellings Without Baths and Indoor Toilets
  Dwellings Without Baths and Indoor Toilets
  Second Medical Opinions
  Second Medical Opinions
ROADS
  Classified Road Schemes (Urban Areas)
  Classified Road Schemes (Urban Areas)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
2.35 p.m.
LORD COBBOLD: My Lords, I have the honour to present to your Lordships a Message from Her Majesty the Queen, signed by Her own hand. The Message is as follows:
"I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament."

INFLAMMABLE CLOTHING
2.36 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have given further consideration to the suggestion that they should assist with publicity on the hazards of flammable clothing, and whether they will make a statement.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): Yes, my Lords. The recent National Fire Prevention Campaign, whose theme was safety in the home, concentrated a good deal of attention on the danger of clothing catching alight. Publicity was undertaken by Her Majesty's Government, the fire authorities, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, the Fire Protection Association, the Central Council for Health Education and home safety committees, by means of films, television and sound broadcasts, Press notices and advertisements, posters, leaflets, bookmarks and similar aids. Her Majesty's
778
Government will continue to promote publicity along these lines.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but before coming to it, may I ask him whether he has any statement to make concerning Question Time last Thursday, when he attributed to me views which I had certainly not expressed?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, my remarks about the supply of materials of low flammability were, I am afraid, misunderstood, I had just referred to the tragic case of a young child who died when her nightdress, which had been made at home, caught fire, and I wrongly assumed that my noble friend's following question related to traditional nightdress materials. Such materials can already be rendered flame-resistant, and research on the problem of flame-resistant processes in general continues to be carried out by important firms, such as Courtaulds. I did not mean to imply any more than this and regret that my remarks might have conveyed otherwise.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend. Reverting to to-day's reply, and noting what the Home Office have done already in this respect, I wonder if my noble friend could consider an additional suggestion? As we both agree that it is not feasible to suggest that shops should sell only non-flammable material and as, equally, we cannot control what people make up at home, would it be possible for Her Majesty's Government to have a film series made on flammability dangers, to be included in the B.B.C. Television programme called "Public Service Films" which follows the "Town and Around" programmes on most evenings of the week?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, may I first make one reservation with regard to what I understood my noble friend to say? The Home Office Working Party are at present considering the possibility of exercising control of at least some materials—for example, winceyette. With regard to the question of films, I am grateful for my noble friend's suggestion. I would mention, however, that there is a film on inflammable clothing, issued by the Central Office of Information which, since last July, has been shown

779
on 170 occasions. We also have a film, Guard That Fire, which has been shown on 68 occasions during the last twelve months. This is a most valuable and important form of publicity, and I would express the gratitude of my Department both to the B.B.C. and to the I.T.V. companies, who make no charge for this service, and show these films whenever they can.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether his Committee are giving attention to the point raised by the noble Baroness the other day—that is, the safety of old people, as well as children, who are likely to be caught by this danger from inflammable materials?
LORD STONHAM: Yes, my Lords, I can certainly give that assurance, though my noble friend was not unaware that the Working Party are giving attention to this important problem. Her suggestion was that it should be given top priority, and, of course, that suggestion is already receiving most active consideration.

DECIMAL CURRENCY
2.41 p.m.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make as to the decimalisation of the currency during this Parliament.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I fear that I cannot add to what I said on May 6 of this year.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, will not the United Kingdom very soon be the only major or even moderate-sized country which sticks to an old-fashioned form of currency; and would it not be in keeping with Her Majesty's Government's publicised modernity and technology to adopt this procedure, which has been well examined and well recommended?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think it is recognised that most people regard
780
this reform as highly desirable, but in the present circumstances, in view of the cost that would be involved, Her Majesty's Government do not believe that this is now the time to make a change.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his Answer of May 6, to which he cannot now add, repeated with verbal precision an Answer which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, in May, 1960? Is he further aware that in 1961, in reply to another Question, I assured the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, that the Government saw great advantages in a decimal currency and were appointing a Committee under the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, to advise them how to do it? Is he aware that in September, 1963, the Halsbury Committee reported strongly in favour of a decimal currency, so that the Government Departments concerned have now had more than two years to study the Report? Can the noble Lord now give us some faint glimmer of hope that some day the Labour Government may begin to be a little dynamic, or must we assume that they are, in fact, irrevocably committed to perpetual stagnation?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am sure it will be a Labour Government that will bring about the reform, but it is not for me to say when it will be. The noble Earl will recognise the great demands that we now have placed upon the resources of the nation, and we must take that as the basis of our deliberations. But I agree with the noble Earl that this is a matter to which he has referred and replied on many occasions; and the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, reminded us that Mr. Gladstone did the same.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, arising out of the question of cost, is the noble Lord aware that, on the estimate of the Halsbury Committee, it would cost £109 million if we do this by 1967, £114 million in 1968 and £128 million in 1969? Is the noble Lord aware that the sooner we do it the cheaper it will be?
LORD SHEPHERD: But, my Lords, at the present moment £100 million is a sizeable figure.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Will it not be equally sizeable in 1970?
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is it not the case that the preceding Government had two years after the recommendation in this matter in which to do something—
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: No.
LORD BROCKWAY: —and now the Opposition is complaining because the Government have not done it in one year?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I believe it is the habit of all Oppositions to complain, irrespective of the circumstances.

WORLD PRICE OF GOLD
2.45 p.m.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will try to negotiate with the world monetary authorities for an increase in the price of gold.]
LORD SHEPHERD: No, my Lords; not in the present or the foreseeable circumstances.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord if Her Majesty's Government will take into account one or two factors? One is that traditionally ample supplies of gold, or new finds of gold, new goldfields, always lead to increased liquidity in the world, increased trade and buoyant conditions, and, therefore, that a rise in the price of gold would have the same effect. Secondly, would it not be better to pursue this matter when the pound is strong, than perhaps to be forced to do it when it is weak?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right that to raise the price of gold would increase world liquidity. But the House is aware that the Government are actively in consultation, not only with the United States but with the Committee of Ten, as to the best ways of increasing liquidity. The Government firmly believe that to raise the price of gold is not the right way to meet this problem.

RHODESIAN PUBLIC SERVANTS
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Rhodesian civil servants, members of the armed forces, police and postmen who decline to take an oath of allegiance to an illegal government, and who may be dismissed or imprisoned, have been guaranteed compensation, reinstatement and uninterrupted pension and other rights.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD WALSTON): My Lords, we are working urgently on suitable ways of helping any Rhodesian public servant who may lose his job through loyalty to the Crown and the legal Government.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that we appreciate that the Government have offered to meet any loss of pension rights? But would the Government consider that that is not adequate? Most of the African public servants have no pensions whatever, and the police action which is now threatened against the professors at the inter-racial college according to their letter in The Time this morning, indicates the need for some compensation for immediate loss?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, the Government are well aware of the situation that my noble friend has outlined, and this is the reason why we are now working, as I say, urgently, on the rather complicated problem of how best to meet this serious situation.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, would my noble friend confirm my impression that there is now no legal Government in Rhodesia, and, therefore, that nobody can legally dismiss these people from their jobs, and that they are still employed?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I think that is perfectly correct.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on the United Nations Resolution on Rhodesia.
In view of the large number of speakers in this afternoon's debate, the House may like to know that light refreshments will be available in the Guest Room.

REORGANISATION OF THE RESERVE ARMY
2.48 p.m.
LORD THURLOW LORD THURLOW rose to call attention to the proposals of Her Majesty's Government for the reorganisation of the Reserve Army; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for introducing this Motion into your Lordships' House to-day, despite the fact that as yet we have no White Paper on Defence or on the future of the Reserve Forces. I personally feel (and I am sure many of your Lordships will agree with me) that it is most important to discuss the proposals made by the Government before the publication of their intentions in detail, if for no other reason than to emphasise the grave apprehension and alarm that is felt among many shades of opinion in the country, including quite a large number of Government supporters.
The information that we have been given is, quite shortly, that the Army Reserve is to be reconstituted as a Territorial Reserve in three categories, including 2,500 Regular Army reservists and numbering just under 50,000, with a liability of call-up before general mobilisation; and that is to be at the expense of the existing Territorial Army, which is to be disbanded. What we do not know is what information and advice have led the Government to foresee the future with such uncanny accuracy that they can safely disband the Reserve Army—the forces in this country for home defence—and disband it so completely that it can never be revived. For that is what they propose to do.
The Secretary of State for Defence has announced that the British Army must train to fight one of two types of
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warfare, nuclear land battles in Europe or counter-insurgency operations elsewhere, and that all planning and training must be directed towards those ends. Thus the Government must be absolutely certain that no potential enemy will ever launch a large-scale conventional war. I personally do not think that such a thing is likely in the near future, but who is to know in five, ten or fifty years, with dictators ruling large countries, what may happen? Surely, it might suit the Russians or the Chinese to pour forth their immense manpower in a conventional war and not incur the opprobrium of being the first to use nuclear weapons; and it might not suit our allies to use nuclear weapons to stop them.
I agree entirely with the proposal of the Government to produce a better Reserve for the Regular Army, and I believe noble Lords on all sides of the House will support the Government on this. We must have the capacity to reinforce the small Regular Army at short notice with the categories of men that it needs. Moreover, I think most of us agree that the existing Territorial Army, except for the "Ever Readies", cannot fulfil this requirement as at present organised and constituted. So we have not even enough of the Reserve that we need for use at short notice. Nor, even when it is called out, is the Territorial Army capable of operating in a conventional war without more modern equipment and quite a long period of training which in future it will be most unlikely to get.
But it does have a great many qualities that we must consider most carefully before we discard them, because though by a simple Act of Parliament we can do that, it will take much more than an Act of Parliament to revive a citizen defence force. In addition to leaving the nation in this defenceless position, I believe that the total disbandment of the Territorial Army will wreck the very sensible proposals of the Government for the reform of the Regular Army Reserve, the need for which has been so amply demonstrated by post-war experience.
Now I wish to draw your Lordships' attention to some of the consequences of disbanding the Territorial Army. First, since it has been emphatically stated that the new Territorial Reserve is to be a Reserve for the Regular Army, there will

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be no force available for home defence, or any other emergency, other than units of the Regular Army which happen to be stationed in the country at the time and which, in the case of fighting units, are often of very low strength. I do not know whether your Lordships saw a letter from the noble Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, in The Times yesterday which drew attention to reliance on the Regular Army for home defence. He said:
"To anyone who has lived through the emergencies with which this country has been faced, this appears a pious hope and an unrealistic assumption."
As the Territorial Reserve will be used to bring the Regular Army up to strength, and to replace casualties, there would be no framework on which more units could be built—no basis for expansion. At least, general mobilisation would present no problem—there would be nobody to mobilise.
Secondly, the most important link between the Army and the civil population will disappear. The new Reserve will be sparsely spread over the United Kingdom, and vast areas, including all the countryside, will lose all touch with the Army, for the new Reserve will be raised by sub-units in a handful of cities and towns. All local interest will disappear. The Army will become more and more divorced from the nation as a whole. For example, I understand that it is at present planned that in the Highlands of Scotland there should be only four companies stationed. If the noble Lords who wrote an excellent letter to The Times this morning are correct (I do not know the details) these companies may be in Inverness, Aberdeen, Perth and Stirling. The rest of the Highlands—and this I feel very much, because it includes the entire area formerly recruited by my own regiment—which have in the past contributed so many battalions and other units for the defence of the nation, will lose all links with the military forces.
What of Northern Ireland? There are possible emergencies there in which the Territorial Army would be able to render the greatest possible support. What will be the effect of this new set-up on Regular recruiting? At present, the Territorial Army permanent staff of Regular officers and N.C.O.s, spread in a huge network all over the land, have responsibilities for recruiting Regular soldiers. Their mere
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presence, mixing with the civilian population, not only keeps the Army in the public eye but brings in Regular recruits, a large proportion of whom start their careers in the Territorial Army. Therefore the Government will have to spend a great deal more money on recruiting, with rather doubtful success.
There has been no mention of the W.R.A.C., of which there are a large number of splendid units in the Territorial Army to-day. I would ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is their intention to exclude the W.R.A.C. entirely from the new Territorial Reserve. Do they propose to offer any alternative form of service to these women, all of whom, under present plans, I understand, will be redundant. If not, are Her Majesty's Government aware of the effect that these decisions will have on recruiting for the W.R.A.C.?
One section of the Reserve, which is already known as the "Ever-Readies", is planned to be increased up to 7,500. To-day, from a nation-wide backing of 120,000 Territorials we have 6,000-odd, and in some of the categories not all that we need. I believe that, without a broad basis for recruiting such as the Territorial Army now provides, it is unlikely that the new Reserve will attract recruits after the "Ever-Readies", drawn from the Territorial Army, have completed their service and wasted out. I do not see how it will be possible to replace the ordinary wastage.
In these proposals, the Government are asking for more "Ever-Readies" for technical units, but they cannot raise the number they want under the existing scheme, with the whole of the Territorial Army behind it. Remember that the Territorials do not soldier for money: they give their time, energies and enthusiasms to the regiment in which they live, and fight, if need be, together. They will not give these to a manpower drafting pool. How can we possibly get on without a broad base, what the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, described, in his most interesting speech on our last Defence debate, as a "second tier" to produce them?
My next point concerns the effect on our Army Cadet Force. This Force, a splendid, healthy youth movement, and a source of Regular recruits, depends a great deal on the Territorial Army. I

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believe that 50 per cent. of the Force is at present based on T.A. drill halls, and they receive a great deal of other assistance. Without the T.A. they must still be assisted, and still be housed, and if their standards and morale decline another source of Regular recruits will disappear and a bad image will be created in the public mind.
I come now to the effect on the Civil Defence organisation. This force—and I have three years' experience of working with it—is closely linked to the Territorial Army. Each has a vital part to play; the two are different, but interdependent. The present Territorial Army offers to the youth of the country, men and women, a healthy outlet for public service. The loss of this opportunity may be reflected in the still further reduced standard of morale among the younger generation, and the social consequences may not be inconsiderable. In an age of spoonfeeding and lots of pocket money, any organisation that fosters tradition, a spirit of adventure and discipline should not be lightly disregarded. An established community spirit of loyalty and comradeship will be lost, and a channel for a healthy mental outlook and physical fitness will be appreciably narrowed. I believe that the Territorial Army, or, if the Government relent, its successor, has an increased task as a unifying force, in which men and women can serve society according to different sets of talents. This could be a service worth far more than the few million pounds in cash terms.
The reduction in the armed strength of the country will not go unnoticed by the NATO nations and by other countries throughout the world, particularly those with which we have alliances, and to which undertakings have been given. Our ability to fulfil our commitments will be more closely questioned and our integrity as a nation will be put in doubt. One cannot help noticing that the President of France, who in 1939 was the only French leader to foresee the pattern of the last war, is reorganising and increasing his country's military strength and at the same time its influence in world affairs. At present, the French Army Reserve is one million. Norway has a local defence force and home guard of 100,000; Germany has a Territorial
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Force of 28,000 and its just bringing in a new plan, for which the target is to get 50,000 more for a citizen army reserve; Canada has 46,000. I could go on for a long time, right through all our friends, and some of our potential enemies, but I think that is quite enough to illustrate my argument.
Most of us agree that the Territorial Army needs to be reorganised. I consider that the requirement, in addition to the Territorial Reserve, is a smaller, unsophisticated force for home defence which volunteers can join, as at present, and which has the support of patriotic employers and the unions. This force should be able to provide a framework capable of rapid expansion at a time of national emergency.
The principal requirement for the Regular Army Reserve is probably for administrative units and signals; the principal requirement for expansion and home defence is for "teeth" arms. Such a force must provide value for money. It should be armed and equipped with good communications, and it must be well-disciplined. It should be based, in units and sub-units, on the cities and the counties of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and retain the historic titles that ally the present units with Regular regiments and their own areas.
In my view, units should be responsible for finding their quota for the Territorial Reserve, and those units which cannot do so, or which have a poor recruiting record, should be disbanded. In this way, and I believe only in this way, shall we obtain and maintain the new Territorial Reserve. I estimate that the cost of such a force would be from £7 million to £10 million. I do not see why the Ministry of Defence should bear the whole of this burden from their Votes. Why should not the Home Office bear some of it? Otherwise, I believe that the Government's present proposal will fail to achieve its purpose and will lead in the end to selective National Service by conscription, as the present plans will not work and there will be no alternative left.
To sum up, total disbandment of the Territorial Army will deprive us of any form of Home Defence or basis for expansion. The Regular Army will become divorced from the nation, and recruiting for it will be adversely affected.
Without a broad base on which to draw, the new Territorial Reserve cannot be maintained. The Army Cadet Force and the Civil Defence organisation will be deprived of their most valuable prop. The youth of the country will be deprived of a healthy opportunity for public service, and the effect on world opinion, particularly on our allies, at a time of international tension and unrest, will be very serious. This is not a Party matter, my Lords. I feel we should become united on such an issue. Before taking the drastic step of totally disbanding the Territorial Army, I beg the Government to think again and ask the Territorial Army Council to produce a workable scheme. I beg to move for Papers.
3.9 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, I must apologise for the condition of my voice, and if it gives out before the end of the debate it will not be as a result of embarrassment in answering the noble Lord's speech. We have a very long debate before us, and a number of noble Lords with great experience of the Army will be taking part. We are all very glad to see that a maiden speech is to be made by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, and we shall look forward to listening to all that is said in the course of this debate.
I must say that I thought Lord Thurlow's speech was a Jeremiad of the kind that I feel is a little difficult to take quite as seriously as he suggested. I make no complaint of what he was saying or the tone in which he said it, but when he examines the proposals when they finally come out I do not think he will find the situation anything like as gloomy as he suggests. I should like to give as much information as I can at this stage, bearing in mind that the Government's White Paper has yet to be published, and I think it is timely—and I welcome Lord Thurlow's initiative—that the Government should have the opportunity of hearing what Your Lordships have to say on this subject.
My Lords, at the end of July the Government outlined in Parliament their plan for reshaping the Army Reserves to meet the military needs of the country. I think there will be no disagreement between most of us—certainly not with
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the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, although we never know what he is going to say—that there is a need, as indeed the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, conceded there was, to reshape the Reserve Forces. I shall try to give some of the background of this and then focus on those points on which there may be disagreement between us.
The main feature of the plan, the one that has provoked the greatest comment and, understandably (and I use this expression in no contemptuous way), the greatest emotion, is the far-reaching implications for the Territorial Army. As the Government have acknowledged, as we all acknowledge—indeed several of my noble friends on the Government Front Bench have served in the Territorial Army and my noble friend Lord Chalfont, who is to wind up, began his military career in the Territorial Army—the Territorial Army has played a most notable part in our nation's life since Lord Haldane's reforms of nearly sixty years ago, and of course it is a truism to say that it has done magnificent work in two world wars. But I am afraid that no force can hope to continue unchanged on the strength of its past glories, and—again I am sure we all agree with this—if its structure and its state of readiness do not match the operational need but are still based on a concept of purpose which is to a large extent outmoded. Let me just quickly say that none of this is to detract from the enormous social value of the Territorial Army. We all acknowledge this. No one would suggest it is the only institution of its kind which does not have a great social value, and we obviously all agree that it has. But this by itself is not enough of an argument for retaining it unless it has a definite value in its present form from a defence point of view.
I think it might be helpful, although many of your Lordships are much more familiar than I am with the Army and the Army Reserve situation, if I just sketch in a little of the background. Here, again. I would remind your Lordships that, if I am not clear, there is a very convenient potted description of the Reserves in the noble and gallant Viscount's last speech, which I found a most useful reference document. The Army Reserves consist chiefly of the Regular Reserve, the Territorial Army

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and the Army Emergency Reserve. The Regular Reserve comprises men who have completed their Colour service and are for a fixed period of years liable for recall; this Reserve therefore represents a trained and experienced cross-section of the Army and its various trades and skills.
The 1964 Reserves Act, a measure which was introduced by the previous Government, increased for Regulars recruited after February, 1964, the period during which they are liable to be designated for Section A of the Reserve and therefore liable to be called out without Proclamation. Moreover, the pattern of Regular enlistments in previous years means that the number of men passing into the Regular Reserve will increase substantially in future years. The Reserve now totals about 27,000; by the early 1970's it will be near to 45,000 and should remain at about that level. It is, therefore, a steadily improving asset for the purposes for which we need it. The legislation which we shall introduce this Session will include provisions to facilitate the call-out of the Regular Reserve, part of which is now available only after a Proclamation.
The Territorial Army and the Army Emergency Reserve are volunteer forces, the former recruited and largely trained on a local or area basis and the latter centrally recruited and trained. The units of the Territorial Army have establishments totalling about 190,000, but their recruiting ceiling set by the previous Government was 123,000 and they are recruited up to 110,000. The Territorial Army is at present organised as an independent force with its own divisions and brigades. The greater part of it—I stress this—is directed to home defence and to producing a framework on which general preparations for a major conventional war could be made; the rest would provide reinforcements to meet our NATO commitments.
Proclamation is necessary before the Territorial Army can be called out, except for home defence and for service in the United Kingdom. Incidentally, the noble Lord made a slightly ominous remark about the Territorial Army's having some special rôle in Northern Ireland; I do not know quite what he meant. We have, of course, those members of the Territorial Army who have, in return for a special
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bounty, accepted the "Ever-Ready" liability to be called out for service at any time. I remember that when in Opposition we made a bit of fun of the Government over the "Ever-Readies", and I am very willing to pay tribute to the soundness of that conception.
The Army Emergency Reserve is composed mainly of logistic units. Category I volunteers, who number nearly 9,000 against an establishment of about 11,000, would be needed to reinforce the strategic reserve of the Regular Army in the event of a limited war; and they accept a liability to be called out for service overseas without a Proclamation; this is recognised by a bounty of £60. Category II volunteers of the Army Emergency Reserve, of whom there are about 4,000 against an establishment of 11,000, would be needed for the NATO reinforcement rôle, and like the Territorial Army cannot be called out without a Proclamation except for home defence. We have, therefore, at present a series of types and categories of volunteer reserves organised in different ways and serving on a different degree of liability. This arrangement clearly lacks flexibility; and a substantial part of the Territorial Army in particular represents a preparation for contingencies which are most unlikely to arise, although at the same time we are not as well prepared as we should be for those contingencies which do seem the more likely.
I believe that in units of the Territorial Army there has for a considerable time past been a sense of uncertainty about the realism of the rôle allocated to the force and the nature of their training for it. Undoubtedly there has been criticism of the equipment and clothing provided—I was going to say by the previous Government, but I am perfectly willing to follow Lord Thurlow's point and not conduct this debate on a Party basis. It is a fact that they have had obsolescent equipment and battle-dress surplus to our Regular Army's needs, and the allowance of paid training days for the weekend training was generally considered to be inadequate. Therefore, I think we cannot escape the conclusion that the Government were attempting to maintain a larger volunteer force than we could afford. The fact that the force could not be recruited as a whole above 60 per cent. of its establishment, and the high proportion of men leaving after

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two years' service or less, tell their own story.
To put it briefly, the volunteer Army Reserve is at present inadequately organised to meet an operational concept which is, as I shall attempt to show, largely unrelated to the contingencies against which we can justify taking out insurance. The Government therefore felt bound to re-examine the rôles which the volunteer Army Reserve should be designed to fulfil; and we have considered in the light of this study what organisation of the Volunteer Reserve is best suited to meet the needs. So far I think there is probably general agreement between most of us. The Government announced at the end of July that this examination enabled them to conclude that it is no longer realistic to think in terms of the Territorial Army for the defence of the United Kingdom itself, or as providing a framework on which general preparations can he made for a major conventional war abroad. It may well be that there are some noble Lords who do not agree with this view. I am not sure that the right honourable gentleman who speaks in the other place for the Opposition on defence matters would do so. He said that we needed (this was not in the House) to
"insure against the contingency that operations on the Continent might be so extensive and successful as to prejudice the safety of the United Kingdom"
without nuclear weapons being brought into use.
My Lords, if anybody—anybody who has visited NATO or SHAPE headquarters, or has had dealings with our military forces on the Continent—thinks that in any future European war large conventional armies will drive towards the Channel ports, he is really fighting either the last war or the previous one all over again. If there should be another major conflict in Europe—which God forbid!—it will not be like that. Although I would entirely agree with the noble Lord that the nature of any future war cannot be precisely foreseen, if war were to come in Europe it would be a nuclear war; and we believe that it would be unrealistic to think otherwise.
We believe that, provided the West retains its deterrent forces, the risk of a major war in Europe is small. NATO knows this, and the Russians know this. That is why we believe that any such act
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is most unlikely. If a nuclear war did come, it would be horrifying in its consequences, and entirely out of scale with anything that we have experienced before. There would be little chance of seriously considering the mobilisation of large armies from civil life, for which the Territorial Army has provided such an admirable foundation in the past. Now that we are in the nuclear age, the concept of a nation in arms is something which now belongs to history. After a strategic nuclear exchange, large-scale organised military operations on the Continent simply could not continue; for movements of armies, or what remained of them, would become impossible. In these circumstances, the invasion of the United Kingdom is not a contingency against which we think it right to make any special preparation, and there is accordingly no case on military grounds for keeping in being Reserve Army units for this rôle.
There remains, of course, the question of aid to the civil power after a nuclear attack, which provides the sole remaining commitment for more than half of the present Reserve Army manpower. It may be that it is on this point, and possibly on this point alone, that there is a real difference between the position of the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, and the Government. I have said that an all-out nuclear war is unlikely; but if it came, the police and the Civil Defence forces would be helped by the Regular troops in this country. We thought most carefully about the question whether part of the Territorial Army should also be kept in being for this purpose. Clearly, tanks and artillery are irrelevant for such a task—and I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in his particular proposals, does not visualise otherwise. Of course it may be said that there would he advantage in having available formed bodies of disciplined men to help the civil power in their tasks. But after the fullest consideration, though accepting that there was some argument here, we decided that we could not justify retaining the Territorial Army units for this purpose. The cost would have been a heavy premium to go on paying for insurance against an unlikely eventuality.
Clearly, noble Lords will say, "You are taking a risk". But Governments at all times are taking risks. It is a question

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of measuring those dangers for which we must prepare and the dangers for which we do not have the resources to prepare. There was an air of unreality about the previously stated rôle of the Territorial Army, and many of its members would not have been attracted to join its units if their object had been solely that of Civil Defence. As your Lordships know, the Government are continuing their study of Civil Defence, and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will in due course be making their views known. The noble Lord suggested that the Home Office might be invited to contribute financially to home defence. I do not know whether he meant this suggestion seriously. The Home Office make substantial provision for Civil Defence purposes; but it would be illusory to think that the retention of existing Territorial Army units could be achieved by a simple transfer of money from one departmental pocket to another. The savings which the Government intend to achieve through the reorganisation of the Army Reserve must be reflected not only in the Defence Budget but in Government spending as a whole.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, if the noble Lord is leaving Civil Defence, may I ask him one question, arising from his statement? I understood him to say that we should be hearing the Government's proposals for the reorganisation of Civil Defence in due course. Could he elaborate a little on what is meant by "in due course" in this context? In July, we were told that the Government were going to let us have their proposals in this regard in the near future. It is now "in due course". I wonder whether that is longer or shorter than "in the near future".
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, if the noble Lord would prefer that I say "in the near future", I shall be happy to do so, and the next time some other noble Lord will be able to say "in due course". I am afraid that I am unable to answer the noble Earl further. This is clearly a matter which is subject to a great deal of study, and I regret that I cannot give him any more information. If it is possible to give some more information to-day, I will ask my noble friend Lord Chalfont to give it.
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As I have said, the noble Lord suggested, rightly, that no Government can confidently forecast what the shape of future wars or other national emergencies will be, and that therefore the Territorial Army, or a new kind of Territorial Army (because I think we have already conceded that the old type of Territorial Army must be changed in a big way), should be retained as a general form of insurance. If we take out a suitable amount of insurance against all the contingencies which might be thought to have some plausibility, we should be faced with a collection of premiums which it would be wholly beyond our capacity to pay. The Defence Budget is a question of priorities. We must concentrate on the most urgent tasks.
I hoped that in their speeches in the course of to-day's debate, noble Lords would concede that the Government have, in fact, grasped a nettle which it was necessary to grasp, and that that, as I shall hope to show, will put our Reserve Forces in a much better posture to meet the needs of our present situation. The military problems of the second half of the 20th century are quite different from those of the first half, and our defence effort must be reorientated accordingly. We must have the courage to abandon traditional rôles in a changing world, and to devote our limited resources to those which make a real contribution to the security of the country. There is, of course, scope for disagreement as to what these should be, but in all things we must make a real contribution to the security of the country and to maintaining the peace of the world.
This is what we are going to do in our reorganisation of the Army Reserves. There are three tasks which, in our judgment, it is right to allot to the Army Reserves. First, to provide some individuals and a few units who can be called out at any time to reinforce the Regular Army, like the present "Ever-Readies"; secondly, to furnish such reinforcements for NATO as our commitments require; and, thirdly, to provide reinforcements needed to support the Regular Army in major operations outside Europe.
In considering these tasks, we have had to bear in mind the change which has taken place in the structure of the Regular Army over recent years. It is now an all-volunteer Army and its organisation

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was designed by our predecessors in office to produce a high ratio of "teeth" to "tail" units.
The logistic units in the Regular Army's order of battle are adequate for emergencies which fall short of major military operations, but if such operations became necessary the logistic units to support them could be found only from the Army Reserves. These logistic units and any others that might be needed to make up the Regular Army order of battle must be manned by volunteer reservists, supplemented as necessary by the substantial and increasing number of Regular reservists who have finished their service with the Colours. This means that the number and types of units in the Army Reserve must be governed by what extra units the Regular Army require in a variety of contingencies, from major military operations outside Europe to a full-scale reinforcement of NATO in a critical international situation.
I should like to emphasise that it is the need for these logistic units which is so very important, but I would not want to suggest that our new plan, when it is published, will not provide units in the "teeth" arms which could, after further training, be drawn upon if major operations outside Europe developed on a scale greater than can now be foreseen. Their call-out liability, unlike that of the Territorial Army, in general will be framed suitably to this purpose. I must make it clear that there is no case for including in our plan any greater measure of provision for reservists to be used in operations short of general war. The limiting factor is not that of men at all; it is the factor of equipment. We can see no point—and evidently our predecessors saw no point—in stockpiling large quantities of equipment in various parts of the world against types and scales of operations in which we have no expectation of being involved. If equipment is not available for such operations, there is no advantage in earmarking reserve manpower for it—a reserve manpower that to-day lacks the equipment and the training for purposes of this sort.
The Government's scheme will be published next month in a White Paper. It will set out details of their proposals for the new Reserve force, in amplification of what was said in the Statement of July 29 which I repeated in this House. Your
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Lordships will not expect me to anticipate the terms of the White Paper in my speech to-day, though I will give what information I can. I can certainly confirm that it will include as full a description as can then be given of the number and types of units to be raised either locally, like units of the present Territorial Army, or on a national basis, like units of the present Army Emergency Reserve. It will indicate the general areas of the country in which the locally raised units will be based. Details of the precise location of units are still being considered at the Home Command level, and a number of factors must be carefully weighed before decisions can be reached.
The noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, has proposed that the basis of the new Reserves ought to be as broad as possible—I can see the force of the argument; we all concede this—in order that it may cover country villages as well as big towns and cities and thereby preserve existing county affiliations and interests. But if we were to break up units of the new Reserve into a large number of small sub-units, dispersed over the countryside, our ability to train volunteers properly would in many cases suffer because the resources of the units, in terms of permanent staff and centrally held equipment, against the background of the rôle which I am explaining, could not be deployed as efficiently and economically as if the sub-units were more concentrated. Moreover, the cost would go up because a larger number of centres would need to be maintained. Your Lordships may be sure that when the order of battle for the new Reserve is finally settled we shall seek to hold as fair a balance as is possible between these two considerations—the achievement of reasonable coverage, on one hand, and of effective training arrangements, on the other.
The noble Lord put forward a much more ambitious, interesting, and perhaps more retrograde, proposal than the Government have in mind. As I understand it, this idea is that, in addition to the new Reserve, there should be the backing of a new Territorial Army with simpler equipment and basic training only, linked to counties as well as to cities like the present Territorial Army and costing, on his estimate, a further £7 million to £10 million a year to run. He suggested that otherwise it was

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unlikely that we should get the Reserves we need.
But whatever the merits of the proposal, I am afraid that it is open to the most serious objections. First—and I stress this point—it is not related to any operational requirement which, in the Government's view, could justify the spending of such large additional sums of money. Whatever value such a force might be thought to have as a basis for expansion in the event of another situation like that of 1914 or 1940, or of providing help to the civil power after a nuclear attack, the Government's view is that, for reasons which we have already explained, it is no longer justifiable to maintain Territorial Army units specifically for these contingencies. Secondly, as I have already indicated, we must face the fact that the Army's main requirements in major military operations would be for logistic units of the type which are now satisfactorily raised and very well recruited in Category I of the Army Emergency Reserve. The raising of additional units or sub-units, for which there was no recognisable operational requirement, in the "teeth" arms would do nothing to help us in recruiting and training men in the logistic units. On the contrary, it would divert resources from that purpose.
Our proposal is to establish, for the new Volunteer Reserve as a whole, a call-out liability bounty of £60. This should go a very long way towards ensuring good recruitment in the new Reserve, if experience with Category I of the Army Emergency Reserve, already recruited to 80 per cent. of its establishment, is any guide. Whatever gloomy prognostications may be made this afternoon, we simply cannot ignore the fact that the one section of the Volunteer Reserve which does have this liability bounty—Army Emergency Reserve Category I—is so much better recruited than either the Territorial Army or the Army Emergency Reserve Category II. The fact that these training arrangements will lay more emphasis than at present on weekend training, and that attendance at evening drills will no longer be obligatory, will make it easier than it would otherwise have been for people who do not live in the big towns and cities to play their full part as members of the new Reserve, since they will be
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able to claim whatever travel expenses are provided by the regulations. As I have said, we are still working on the detailed plans and we shall announce the decisions without delay, once they have been reached, but the important thing is to get the right decisions.
I should add that the White Paper will also deal, among other matters, with the liabilities of volunteer reservists for training in normal conditions, and for call-out should their full-time services be required. In this connection, I believe that there has been some misunderstanding about the call-out liability of the new Volunteer Reserve as a whole. On the one hand, it has been suggested that they will be like the "Ever-Readies"—available for call-out at any time at the discretion of the Secretary of State for Defence. On the other hand, it has been argued that in practice their liability will not really be different from that of the present Territorial Army. Neither proposition is true. The Reserve as a whole will certainly not have a liability like those of the "Ever-Readies". The "Ever-Ready" liability will apply only to those who specifically volunteer and who get the annual bounty of £150. But the call-out liability of the other volunteer reservists will undoubtedly be greater than that of the present Territorial Army. This is an essential feature of our proposals. The Territorial Army, at the moment, can be called out, except for home defence, only in the event of "imminent national danger or great emergency". We think that this formula is too restrictive. It could inhibit the Government from calling out members of the Volunteer Reserve in a serious situation where they are required for major military operations, but where the precise terms of the formula—imminent national danger or great emergency—may be said not to apply. We are therefore introducing, for the new Reserve as a whole, a call-out liability which will be more in tune with the needs of the present day, and will be similar to them, and which will be recognised also by an appropriate bounty.
Under the Bill to be introduced, members will be liable to be called out for service in the United Kingdom or overseas when warlike operations are in preparation or in progress. Your Lordships will appreciate that no Government can bind itself or its successors regarding

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hypothetical situations in which it might or might not be necessary to use the Reserve. But, as we have made clear in our discussions with the Territorial Army Council and with representatives of the Confederation of British Industries and the Trades Union Congress, there is no intention to call out members of the new Reserve under this liability unless major military operations are in progress or appear to be imminent. No member of this Reserve force, other than the "Ever Readies", will be called out for warlike operations until full use has been made of Section A of the Regular Reserve; that is to say until all suitable members of Section A, in the numbers and categories required, have been called out.
I shall not go on at great length about the actual call-out, because we shall have an opportunity to discuss this in great detail when the Bill comes before us. But I will say that the Government—and I am sure any Government—will have careful regard to the individual inconvenience that may be produced by such call-ups, and they will not enter into this lightly. We believe that this Reserve will be able to maintain recruitment at a satisfactory level and that its establishments will be considerably better filled than those of the present Territorial Army.
My Lords, I must apologise for the length of my speech, but the importance of the subject and the quality of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, and of the speeches we shall hear, demanded as full an explanation of Government policy and thinking as we could at this stage give. While it is obvious that I can make no promises, the wealth of experience in this House is such that the Government will give most careful consideration to whatever is said in the debate, as indeed we have to the views expressed by the Territorial Army Council.
I should just like to say a word on this issue of consultation on the plan. I hope we shall not hear too much said to-day on the rather short but discouraging proposition that if only the Government had consulted other people before announcing their intentions, they would never have announced them. But this idea is misconceived. The fact is—and I think most of us would agree—that the rôle of the Army Reserves, and their size and shape,
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are the responsibility of Ministers. The Territorial Army Council clearly recognised this in the joint statement which was issued following the meeting which the Secretary of State for Defence held with the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk, on August 12. We could not ask the Territorial Army Council to share with the Government responsibility for the assessments which we have made on these questions of principle.
Furthermore, the Government had undertaken to announce their decisions, when pressed by the Opposition, in the first instance to Parliament. Since then there has been extensive consultation with the Territorial Army Council and the Ministry of Defence, both formally and informally, at various levels. We are very much obliged to them, and particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, for the clarity and courtesy with which he, as Chairman of the Council's representatives on the joint working party, expressed these views. These discussions are now substantially concluded, and consideration is still being given to some of the views expressed on that occasion, but we agreed that at this stage we would not issue any official statement.
I would end only on this point. While we are perfectly prepared to face any criticism, I hope—and I believe from hearing the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, that this will be so—that whatever is said in this House will not be of a kind that will damage morale or impair in any degree the future success of our Reserve Forces. Clearly, the Opposition, or any noble Lord, must feel free to criticise, and certain risks are inevitable in these circumstances. But I want to assure the House that the Government are in deadly earnest about the need to give this country the Armed Forces that we need and can afford. I am not making any complaint against the previous Government for their failure to grasp certain of these nettles. I think very few people realise to-day that our Armed Forces are carrying, as a result of the degree of overstretch that is imposed on them in meeting present commitments, a very heavy burden, and it is absolutely essential that the Government, or any Government of the day, should look realistically at these problems.

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It is our view that in this part of the defence field we can, with good will, produce better equipped forces which will more closely meet the real needs of this country—and this is no empty phrase. I am sure that this new Reserve conception is one that is far more important in the world as it exists now. We can do this with greater efficiency and at less cost, and as our plans unfold they will come generally to be accepted.

RHODESIA: UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION
3.47 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, with permission, I should like to repeat the Statement which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has just made in another place on the Rhodesian situation, following the Resolution passed by the Security Council on November 20. The words of the Prime Minister were as follows
"The House will recall the circumstances in which my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary went to New York. He had to negotiate and debate against a background of almost overwhelming demand for the use of collective military force, and it was the desire of the whole House, too, that he should assert the British responsibility for Rhodesia, while seeking the fullest support for effective measures to bring Rhodesia back to constitutional rule. I believe my right honourable friend had a great success in what he set out to do, not least because he was able to claim the full support of Parliament and the country.
"It became clear that the original British Resolution would not have secured a majority, and we insisted that the opposing Resolution, supported by 36 African States, was unacceptable. In the event, a compromise Resolution which, with the explanation made by my noble friend Lord Caradon, last Saturday, was acceptable to us, was passed by ten votes to none, France abstaining.
"The text of the Resolution, Lord Caradon's statement, the earlier Resolutions and the speeches of my right
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honourable friend have been placed in the Library.
"There are three things to which I would draw attention: the question of Chapter 7 wording; the reference in the Resolution to the 1961 Constitution; and the question of trade relations and an oil embargo.
"On the wording of the Resolution, Lord Caradon made it clear that with regard to the operative paragraph 1, we do not regard it as falling under Chapter 7 of the Charter of the United Nations. Paragraph 7 calls upon the United Kingdom Government, as the working of the Constitution of 1961 has broken down, to take immediate measures in order to allow the people of Southern Rhodesia to determine their own future, consistent with the objectives of the General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV).
"I cannot see any difficulty here. Manifestly, the 1961 Constitution has broken down. In so far as Mr. Smith and his colleagues purport to be a Government, they have replaced it by an entirely new so-called Constitution. But the House must accept that the Constitution had in fact already broken down as a result of the ordinances and decrees signed on the 10th November, which amounted to the destruction of all safeguards for the rule of law, for human rights in the 1961 Constitution and earlier legislation.
"This certainly does not mean we have abrogated it. It remains the law of Rhodesia, together with the new laws made last week under the powers created by the Southern Rhodesia Act, 1965. While we have power to revoke or amend sections of that Constitution, we have said we have no present intention of revoking it as a whole, and I cannot at this stage foresee circumstances in which we would do so. I will come to its rôle in the resettlement period in a moment.
"Now, Sir, with reference to paragraph 8 of the Security Council Resolution, on the 12th November, dealing with further economic sanctions, I said:
'We shall certainly have to review the situation in the light of the discussions in the United Nations and elsewhere, because

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in our view it is important that, whatever measures are taken, they will fall a long way short of some of the measures which may be urged in the United Nations.'
"Our position was explained by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday. We are committed to doing what is in our power to implementing this Resolution. But although we insist this remains a British responsibility, we shall not follow a unilateral policy. For this reason, as my right honourable friend said, we shall take counsel with other Governments on the best methods to pursue.
"For one thing, unilateral action on our part could not be effective if other nations were to fill any gap we created. So far as oil is concerned, there are many technical and economic factors to be examined if an oil sanction is to be made effective. I will of course make a further Statement to the House when I am in a position to do so. The same considerations apply in the case of other goods entering into Rhodesian trade.
"The test to be applied, as I explained to the House on November 12, is the effectiveness of the measures to be applied as a means of contributing to the return of Rhodesia to constitutional methods of Government. For the reasons I then explained, this issue cannot be burked. The measures must not be vindictive, but they must be effective if we are to continue to discharge our continuing responsibility for Rhodesia, and not have that responsibility taken out of our hands by others, and possibly by methods which would involve lasting damage for Rhodesia and indeed far beyond Rhodesia.
"In judging the effectiveness and the rightness of any measures we propose to the House, I hope honourable Members and right honourable Members will recognise that action which is speedily effective will do less lasting damage to Rhodesia's economy, and to the possibility of a reasonable settlement, than pressures which are long-drawn-out and inflict a continuing agony on Rhodesia. I hope the House will recognise, too, that while we must continue to assert our special and continuing responsibility, this is a matter of world concern. What is at stake
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here is the future of our multiracial Commonwealth. What is at stake—has been at stake—is the possibility of our virtual isolation at the United Nations. What is at stake, too, is whether the Afro-Asian bloc will continue in a substantially neutral posture, or will be attracted by the pressures from other nations—not least China—who are in a position to turn the Rhodesian situation to their advantage.
"I repeat our aims: as speedily as possible to turn Rhodesia back into constitutional channels, and to do this constructively without recrimination. When the Governor is able to report that the people of Rhodesia are willing and able to work on constitutional paths we are prepared to work together with their leaders to make a new start. For this purpose, the 1961 Constitution remains in being, though the House will realise the need for those amendments needed to prevent its perversion and misuse, such as we have seen in the last fortnight, and those amendments, too, which are needed to give effect to the five principles to which all parties in this House have subscribed."
My Lords, that concludes the Prime Minister's Statement.
3.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl, as I am sure the House is, for communicating to us the very long but very important Statement that the Prime Minister has made in another place. I have had the opportunity of seeing this Statement for only a few moments, and I am sure the whole House will want time to consider it and very probably to debate it. But there are a number of questions which I should like to put to the noble Earl, as Leader of the House and, of course, as a member of the Cabinet, sharing responsibility for these matters, which I trust he will be able to answer.
The first, I think, is not of a controversial character in any sense. There is a reference in this Statement to reservations made by Lord Caradon. Will the noble Earl give an assurance that those reservations, which have not as yet been made public, will be made available to Members of your Lordships' House immediately? The Statement begins by

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recognising the desire of Parliament that British responsibility for Rhodesia should continue to be asserted. My Lords, the United Kingdom could presumably have abstained from voting on this Resolution. Does the noble Earl not agree that, by voting for this Resolution, it at least appears to involve or to imply recognition in some degree by the Government of the jurisdiction of the United Nations?
I would ask the noble Earl if he would answer this question, too: how does he reconcile voting for this Resolution with the statements made by the Prime Minister and other members of the Government to Parliament only a very short time ago? The Statement he has just read refers to paragraph 7 of the Resolution, and, if I might, I should like to remind your Lordships of its terms. It calls upon the United Kingdom Government,
"as the working of the Constitution of 1961 has broken down, to take immediate measures in order to allow the people of Southern Rhodesia to determine their own future consistent with the objectives of General Assembly Resolution 1514."
There is a reference at the end of the Statement to negotiations with the leaders of the people of Rhodesia, and I would ask the noble Earl whether the Government are prepared to reopen negotiations on the basis of the 1961 Constitution. This Resolution apparently goes so far as to call upon us to recognise that that Constitution has broken down and gone, and to allow the people of Southern Rhodesia to determine their own future consistent with Resolution 1514.
Now may I come to paragraph 8? That calls upon us
"to do our utmost in order to break all economic relations with Southern Rhodesia, including an embargo on oil and petroleum products",
and the Statement which the Prime Minister has made says that we are committed to doing what is in our power to implement this Resolution. May I remind your Lordships that the Prime Minister told us that in applying sanctions—and I quote from column 632 of the Commons HANSARD of November 12:
"Every measure has been judged and must be judged against this ability to restore the rule of law and the functioning of a democratic Constitution in Rhodesia."
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I would ask the noble Earl how he reconciles this commitment, for which we voted,
"to do our utmost in order to break all economic relations with Southern Rhodesia…"
with the application of the test adumbrated by the Prime Minister.
The Resolution goes on—paragraph 9 is connected with this—to call upon the United Kingdom Government
"to enforce urgently and with vigour all the measures it has announced, as well as those mentioned in paragraph 8 above,"
which are
"all economic relations…including an embargo on oil and petroleum products."
I put to the noble Earl, does not voting for this Resolution on the authority of Her Majesty's Government show a very considerable change in the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to this problem? We were told by the Prime Minister that he did not contemplate any national or international action for the purpose of coercing even the illegal Government of Rhodesia into a constitutional posture. Could not these measures that we have been committed to implement be regarded as coercive? If they are not coercive, what are they intended to do?
I would finally ask (I am afraid that I have asked the noble Lord a great many questions, but it is important) for an assurance that this House will be given the opportunity of considering any steps that Her Majesty's Government propose to take to implement the Resolution of the Security Council.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, perhaps I could answer these questions at once, before I forget them. I think I might try to answer every question that was put to me, although I may not remember all the questions put by the noble and learned Viscount. Naturally, he was not able to give me notice; just as I was unable to give him much sight of the document; but I assume that he would like me to answer them now. The House will forgive me if I miss one or two of them, in which case the noble and learned Viscount will recall me to the question.
I think the first question that he asked was whether the House would have the opportunity of studying the speeches

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made, including one or two reservations, by the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, at the United Nations. As, in fact, was made plain in the document—and I am glad to repeat it—the text of the Resolution, Lord Caradon's statements, the earlier Resolutions and the speeches of my right honourable friend, Mr. Michael Stewart, have been placed in the Library. So on that point I can give the noble and learned Viscount—
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I hope they are in the Library now. I asked for an assurance that they would be made available to Members of your Lordships' House. I do not think that they were available a few moments ago.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I feel that if I can satisfy the noble and learned Viscount to that extent I shall not have done so badly.
He then went on to ask whether acceptance of this Resolution meant that we had ceased to insist on this being treated as a British responsibility. There, again, as I said in the Statement, although we insist that this remains a British responsibility we shall not follow a unilateral policy. I think that any of us who want to make scanctions effective (and I know from his fine speech last week that the noble and learned Viscount wants to see sanctions made effective) must agree that if they are to be of any use at all, they must be collective. So the answer is that, although we do not abrogate our responsibilities, we are collaborating with other countries. Indeed, it would be impossible simply to keep this entirely to ourselves. It has obviously become an issue of major world concern. Whatever we said or did not say, the world intends to take an acute interest.
The noble Viscount then asked me—and I appreciate that this was an important question—to explain the meaning of the word "immediate": the Resolution talks of taking "immediate measures" in order to allow the people of Southern Rhodesia to determine their own future. This is the point which the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, made clear when he made his reservations clear in his statement. He made it clear that the word "immediate" in this phrase must be interpreted by us to mean that measures would be taken as soon as possible. He made that explicitly—may I just finish this sentence?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: It was not a question that I asked.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I think the House would like to have this answer. The noble Lord, Lord Caradon, said that the word "immediate" meant that these measures must be taken as soon as possible.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I had not asked the noble Earl any question about that. I know how hard it is to take down the questions. But I should like an answer to the question I did put: in view of the terms of that Statement, is it or is it not the case that the Government are prepared to reopen negotiations on the basis of the 1961 Constitution with such leaders of Rhodesia as may emerge? That is what I asked.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I know the noble and learned Viscount asked that question; but I had the other down as an additional one. I cannot give any pledge about the nature of the leaders with whom Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to talk; but I must confine myself to the Statement that was actually made.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I am sorry to interrupt—
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: May I finish? The noble and learned Viscount is giving me a rough time. I am anxious to answer the questions, but I must be allowed to finish a sentence every now and then. May I return to what I was saying? When the Governor is able to report that the people of Rhodesia are willing and able to work on constitutional paths then we are prepared to work together with their leaders to make a new start. I cannot add anything further. I know that the noble and learned Viscount, who is an experienced statesman, will not expect me to say more. What he asked was whether the 1961 Constitution would be a sufficient basis. May I repeat what the Statement said:
"For this purpose"—
that is, in the event of any talks—
"the 1961 Constitution remains in being, though the House will realise the need for those amendments needed to prevent its perversion and mis-use…and those amendments…which are needed to give effect to the five principles to which all Parties in this House have subscribed."

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So you can call it a basis or call it based on the 1961 Constitution, amended in the way I explained. That, I feel, answers the question, so far as I can take it this afternoon.
The noble and learned Viscount then asked whether it was fair to say whether we are committed to the Resolution. Well, clearly the Government are committed to it. Some of these measures—some of the most important, such as any oil sanctions that might come to be imposed—would require Affirmative Resolutions and it would be for both Houses to pass them or not to pass them. I hope that both Houses would pass Affirmative Resolutions to give effect to the relevant Orders. One could not, of course, say, until any particular step taken is confirmed by the Affirmative Resolution, that Parliament was committed; but certainly the Government, by voting for it, are committed.
There may be at least one or two questions that the noble Viscount has asked which I have missed out. I hope he has remembered his own questions; but if there was one that I have not answered then perhaps he will tell me now.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I will put the questions again, if the noble Earl wishes. So far he has not answered some of the questions I put. I asked a question about paragraph 8 of the Resolution. That is what we are committed to. It is to do our utmost in order to break all economic relations with Southern Rhodesia. I put it to him that this is a complete change from the test that the Prime Minister adumbrated. We are now committed to these economic relations, including an embargo on oil. I asked the noble Lord to reconcile that with the Prime Minister's statements.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot see any inconsistency at all. It was only last week, in the course of that fine speech, to which I have paid tribute more than once, and which the noble and learned Viscount, I think, will not mind my referring again, the noble and learned Viscount said:
"I agree that we should seek to restore the rule of law and the end of this illegal régime as soon as possible; and in considering sanctions now proposed and others,—we must, it seems to me, apply the test suggested, by the Prime Minister: Are they likely to be
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effective, and effective quickly?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 270, (No. 4) col. 255, 15/11/65.]
Only last week the noble and learned Viscount was extremely determined to see quick and effective sanctions introduced. What we are doing is to try to give effect to the ideas he expressed, in common with so many others in your Lordships' House, last week when the enabling Bill was passed by the whole House without anybody casting a vote against it.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am sorry to pursue the matter, but really the noble Earl is not facing up to this problem. I do not resile from what I said last week. We were going to consider the sanctions, and we were told that the sanctions proposed by the Government would be adequate for the purpose. As yet, there has hardly been an opportunity for them to be applied. But, my Lords, it is one thing to take, as the Prime Minister asked us to agree to do, a piecemeal application and consider sanctions one by one and see how they work. It is surely quite a different thing for Her Majesty's Government to vote for a Resolution calling upon the united Kingdom to do its utmost to break all economic relations without regard to how the proposed sanction is going to work. That seems to me to involve a considerable change of position. That is why I asked the noble Lord to see whether he could reconcile it with what we were told last week. I asked him, and I press him again, to give an assurance that in steps to break all our economic relations, in addition to the steps already adumbrated, this House at least shall be given an opportunity to consider them before they are brought into force.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I cannot agree at all that there has been any change in our attitude. For the first time this afternoon, or in these discussions, and no doubt without any intention, the noble and learned Viscount distorted what the Government had in mind. He said just now, in effect, that we appeared to be going ahead with measures, extreme sanctions, without considering their effect. That, of course, is quite wrong. We are not taking any immediate steps except that of study and consultation, so it would be quite wrong to imagine that this week, for example, a lot of new steps of a physical kind are being taken in

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response to the Security Council Resolution. In that respect, I am sure inadvertently, the noble and learned Viscount completely misrepresented the Government. We are studying these matters and consulting. May I repeat the words of the Resolution:
"That they should do their utmost in order to break all economic relations including an embargo on oil and petroleum products."
Therefore, undoubtedly it does leave a considerable measure of discretion.
May I, finally, answer the question of the noble and learned Viscount, whether we in the House would be given an opportunity of discussing these severe measures which may loom ahead before steps are actually taken? As the noble and learned Viscount knows, if he wishes to discuss anything—if the Leaders of the Parties in this House wish to discuss anything—it is not in the least difficult to organise a debate. So, speaking for the moment as Leader of the House, may I say that I am sure the usual channels will find no difficulty about arranging debates on these matters. But if the noble and learned Viscount is asking me a kind of constitutional question—could all these steps be taken without Parliamentary approval?—the answer is that some, no doubt, could be; a whole lot of measures might be involved, and some, the most important, could not be. Certainly oil sanctions would require an Affirmative Resolution from both Houses. To the best of my ability I have answered all the questions of the noble and learned Viscount. It was an unusually long list to have thrown at one, but I do not complain about that. I cannot help feeling that when the noble and learned Viscount thinks over the answers, he will come to the conclusion that he and I are still together, as we were last week.
LORD MCNAIR: My Lords, the noble Earl the Leader of the House will be glad to know that I do not propose to put a series of questions to him. I wish on behalf of the noble Lords on these Benches to make clear that we associate ourselves most emphatically with the action of the Government in invoking the interest and responsibility of the United Nations in this matter. Article 34 of the Charter places on the Security Council the primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security. There can be no question
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whatever that the action of Mr. Smith and the members of his late Cabinet constituted a threat to the peace of the world. Therefore, Her Majesty's Government are perfectly right in seizing the United Nations of the matter. Above all, it is necessary that the world should realise that this difficulty is not a private quarrel between the United Kingdom and certain people in Rhodesia. It is a grave threat to the peace of the world, and it is absolutely right that the appropriate organ, the United Nations, should be seized of it.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am deeply grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord McNair, for what he has said and not least for his excusing me from any further interrogation. To be cross-examined by an ex-Lord Chancellor and the greatest international lawyer of the day in the same afternoon would be too much of an experience.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, would the Leader of the House think that it might be helpful at this stage (since it has been mentioned by the noble and learned Viscount, who at the moment is acting as Leader of the Opposition) to give some clarification of why it might not have been possible for our representative at United Nations—after giving the fullest explanation, which would certainly have been justified—to follow the lead of France and abstain from voting?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I think that the shortest answer would be that we want to control the situation. I could speak at greater length, but I think that it is best to put it shortly.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, the noble Earl is aware that I do not wish to debate this issue and that my intent is to put questions. Two questions I wish to ask are these. In the consideration of any international oil embargo, will the particular problem of Zambia be considered; and, also, will consideration be given to the fact that Portugal and the Republic of South Africa might import oil into Rhodesia and that any international action might thereby involve them as well?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: As regards Zambia, of course the noble Lord will be aware that this problem has been intensively studied for a long time.

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I imagine that everything which he has in mind would be in our minds also. His other question seems to go rather wide. I do not want to imply this afternoon that action of that sort is contemplated.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I wish to ask only two questions. Naturally most of us in the House will wish to study this very grave Statement with care before making any detailed comment. My first question is a very simple one. Will the Government lay the new Rhodesian Constitution in the Library? The noble Earl and the Prime Minister have referred to it, but, so far as I know, most of us have never seen it. Will he give an assurance that it will be laid as soon as possible, in order that we may see how far, if at all, it differs from the original 1961 Constitution?
Secondly, up to now the Prime Minister has claimed that there is complete national unity in favour of his policy. I think he repeated that claim in the Statement that was made to-day. Will the noble Earl make it clear to him that, now that the Government have come out in favour of far-reaching penal sanctions on Rhodesia, that is no longer true and responsibility for this policy forthwith shall rest and must rest with him and his colleagues alone?
LORD BOWLES: And on Mr. Amery as well?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I was approached about the 1961 Constitution, as it happens, by the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, a day or two ago and I promised to-day to obtain it.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: What I want is the new Constitution.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I am sorry. I promised to try to obtain it. I assume that it has not arrived yet, but I was given to understand when I made an inquiry that the changes are very slight. Essentially it is an interim Constitution. It is not intended to be a long-term Constitution. It is adapted from their point of view to the immediate situation.
I am afraid that I cannot undertake to inform the Prime Minister that national unity has now been broken. I do not
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know why I should do so. I think he would soon send me to the right-about if I did such an impertinence. I cannot imagine why I should tell him that national unity had been broken. Only last week an enabling Bill, giving very wide powers indeed, was passed in this House, and even the noble Marquess did not vote against it. Let that go on record. The noble Marquess knew what was coming and did not vote against it. I am certainly not going to tell my right honourable friend, until I have much stronger evidence, though I would not question the good authority and high individual standing of the noble Marquess, that unity between the Parties has been broken.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl this question? I understand that what he is trying to get is the terms of the Constitution passed by Mr. Smith. That is not what we wish to see. What the Prime Minister still apparently says is that he is willing to settle, I hope as soon as possible, on constitutional terms, which I hope means reasonable terms and terms which we are prepared to support. That is different from what has been said to-day. He has said that he stands by the 1961 Constitution, subject to certain necessary amendments. Would the noble Earl, in answer to a Written Question, make public in this House what must be well known to the Government, if they have considered what changes they are going to make, what amendments in the 1961 Constitution would have to be made in order to make it acceptable as a basis of negotiation with men of good will in Rhodesia? Surely we want to know how we can reach a settlement much more than how we can attack.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, certainly a request from the noble Earl, with his vast experience in these matters, will be conveyed to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. And may I also respectfully say that any request of the noble Marquess, except the one about national unity, which seems to be too much of a good thing, will also be conveyed to my right honourable friend? I cannot hold out hope of an immediate answer to the noble Earl this afternoon, but I will certainly place before my right honourable friend what he has said.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, arising out of what the Lord Privy Seal said on the studies which were to be made as to the feasibility of an oil sanction, may I ask him this question? Does he remember that thirty years ago the Governments of the United Kingdom and the United States sought to impose a total embargo on the export of oil to Manchukuo? Does he remember that that effort broke down because of a judgment of the Supreme Court of the United States, called the "Chicken-run Judgment", the effect of which was that the Government of the United States had no constitutional authority to prevent the oil companies from exporting to Manchukuo or anywhere else in the world? Can he say whether that judgment of the Supreme Court has ever been reversed or the United States Constitution amended? If not, are we not going to be in a rather ridiculous position?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord an answer regarding the point of history he raises, but, as he can well imagine, we have discussed all these matters with the United States in recent months and, to the best of my belief, this particular difficulty has not been raised. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor may have other information. But this does not appear to be the main obstacle at the present time.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, may I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether Her Majesty's Government will look into this matter, because it seems to me extremely relevant to the whole problem?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I can only say to the noble Lord what I said to the noble Earl and the noble Marquess, that anything he asks the Government to look into will certainly be dealt with.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, in view of the constitutional matters just discussed, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is able to make any comment on the reports in the Press that in Holland it is constitutionally impossible for them to apply the necessary powers to do it?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I saw the report in the Press to that effect, but perhaps I could get in
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touch with the noble Lord and tell him whether it is correct.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, in view of the fact that all the questions have been put from the other side, surely it is relevant that questions should be put from this side. I was going to ask my noble friend whether he had not also seen the report in the Press that the Government of Persia, from which the greater part of the oil imported by Southern Rhodesia comes, has decided to place an embargo on the export of that oil?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I did see that in the Press and I imagine it to be correct.

REORGANISATION OF THE RESERVE ARMY
4.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT MONTGOMERY OF ALAMEIN: My Lords, we are back now on the debate on the Reserve Army. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, apologised when he began his speech for his voice, but I thought that when he had ended his voice was in pretty good form. I spoke in the Defence debate on June 30 for 22 minutes. I apologise for that. It will not happen again. Since the debate in this House on July 29, a great many brickbats have been thrown at Her Majesty's Government on the subject of the reorganisation of the Reserve Army. My view is that some of the rebukes are unfair, and I should like to consider this point calmly and without emotion.
The Territorial Army was formed by Lord Haldane about sixty years ago for a definite purpose, and it gave magnificent service in two world wars. That I can subscribe to, because I served right through both wars. But its organisation to-day is not what is needed for the Reserve Army or our nation, in an age of cold war, limited war and of unlikely all-out nuclear war. That being so, I think it is absolutely right and proper that it should be reshaped to meet the needs of to-day. This reshaping should have been carried out ten years ago or more, when we were definitely in the age of the hydrogen bomb and it became clear that a Reserve Army of ten divisions on a normal Regular Army establishment was not what was necessary. It was not

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needed. Reshaping should have been carried out then, but it was not. Why? Because nobody in those days would grasp this nettle. The Labour Government to-day have decided to take action. They have grasped the nettle, and have found it very, very prickly.
In my speech in June last, I indicated how the reorganisation or reshaping might be carried out and advocated a Reserve Army on a two-tier (spelt, t.i.e.r!) basis. The present plan adopts the first tier, but discards the second. My view is that the removal of one tier changes the whole conception and makes it much more difficult to raise the Reserves needed. The second tier, in my estimation, was needed to nourish the first tier and keep it up to strength with basically trained men. The issue revolves a good deal around the question of whether the time has come to abandon any form of home defence. I do not believe that the time has come. In war time, absolute security of the home base is vital, and that goes for law and order throughout the nation. The Secretary of State for Defence made it clear in the House of Commons on July 29 last that any form of home defence for the Reserve Army is not necessary, not even to help the police to preserve law and order, which the police most certainly could not do unaided.
I mentioned in that speech that I had learned in my long military life that only one thing is certain in war—namely, that everything is uncertain. I should like to add to that a remark made by von Moltke, when he was addressing his subordinate commanders many years ago. He said:
"You will generally find that the enemy has three courses open to him. Of these he will choose the fourth."
How very true that is! Whatever form the reshaped Reserve Army may take, it must be based, as it always has been, on the voluntary spirit of the nation. That, surely, must never be allowed to die. Nor must the regimental spirit be stamped on—and that goes for the "tribal areas", too, where that spirit is very strong. I once got into great trouble in your Lordships' House because I said that the Highland regiments were not the corps d'élite of the British Army—I said that the Guards were; but I did
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say that they were the "cat's whiskers". With this voluntary spirit in mind, it seems to me absolutely necessary that the Ministry of Defence should consult T.A. associations, trade unions, employers of labour and so on. It would seem that this was not done, because when the plan was announced the Territorial Army associations became very upset, to put it mildly.
To conclude my ten minutes, while I congratulate the Government on grasping this prickly nettle, I have not the same congratulations to offer them about the way it has been handled; and it is my earnest hope that the Government will put back the second tier, which had a definite home defence commitment, because, according to the dictum of von Moltke, "you never know!"
4.34 p.m.
LORD LEIGH: My Lords, I trust that your Lordships will extend to me the usual courtesy of the House on this the first time, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, so kindly mentioned, that I have had the temerity to address your Lordships. I feel particularly bold in following the noble and gallant Viscount, whose remarks have always been entirely above my head in the past, as they were again to-day. But I am a little relieved to find that we think on exactly the same lines. I came here to-day in the hope of urging Her Majesty's Government not to do away with the regimental spirit and regimental traditions of the Territorial Army. The Yeomanry Regiments founded in the middle of the eighteenth century are to be disbanded—killed—and their glorious past and glorious traditions are to go for nothing.
I understand that one of the objects of the Reserve is to enable us to fill the gap in our NATO commitments with an Emergency Reserve which is to be on immediate call for an indefinite length of time. I venture to think that employers will not look at this idea with any great kindness, and will not encourage their men to belong to this Reserve in the same way as they have encouraged them to belong to the Territorial Army in the past; and if the men feel that their employers are thinking on these lines they will not join, and this scheme will not be, perhaps, the success that is hoped for.

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A second object of the Reserve is, I believe, to free Regular commanders, officers and N.C.Os. for service with formations earmarked for NATO; and thirdly to save about 2½d. in the £ out of all the money spent on Defence. To attain this object it is proposed to disband 130 out of 151 R.A. and infantry units, and to tell about 70,000 volunteer soldiers that their services are not required. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said that the Regular Army was very hard pushed at the moment; and no doubt this is right. Is this, then, the moment to tell 70,000 volunteers that their services are not required? Could not something better than that be done?
No one, I think, wants to retain an army with divisions, brigades and men trained in obsolescent weapons to fight a war that may never happen—although I feel that the certainty as to the form of the next war is possibly a little premature. After all, we never have been right in the past as to how wars would be fought. We spent a great deal of time at the beginning of the last war walking about with gas masks, and a great deal of money and energy were spent in providing them and training people to put them on and take them off.
This complete doing away with all forms of insurance because we think that the next war will he fought in a certain way is surely rather rash. Should we not have some form of streamlined Territorial Army upon which we can raise a force in time of emergency, even if it is only a platoon taking over where a company is now? Do we want to do away with a great number of these new drill halls that have just been built? Do we, above all, want to concentrate these reserve forces in the towns? The trouble during a big raid at Coventry in the last war was that they could not get the ammunition out to the guns, because it was in the middle of Coventry and every road was blocked. If all the reserves were to be put in big towns, in the event of an atomic war it would be somewhat dangerous. Should they not be spread over the country as widely as they possibly can be?
In my own county of Warwick, which is by no means the worst hit, it is proposed that the total of 4,500 men and girls now serving should be reduced to 1,400, the reserve forces to be concen-
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trated in Birmingham, Coventry and possibly Rugby: all other drill halls and so on are to be abandoned. Surely this is extremely rash; and it will be discouraging to anybody likely to volunteer for the new Reserve. I hope that the Government will think carefully before destroying the Territorial Army and all it stands for. I thank your Lordships for hearing me so patiently. I fear that I shall be unable to stay until the end of the debate, because I have a long-standing engagement in Coventry. But, once again, I thank you.
4.40 p.m.
LORD BOURNE: My Lords, it is my pleasant task to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, on his maiden speech, which I do with great sincerity. It seems to me, looking at the clock, that, like the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, before him, he has a gift not only of clarity but also of brevity, because he told us a great deal in a short time. I am sure your Lordships will wish that, having heard him once, you will hear him many times again.
This brings me to the subject under debate, the Reserve Army, and I will try to be short. There are a couple of mechanical points which intrigue me a little to start with, and then, after mentioning them, I should like to discuss purely the rôle of the Reserve Army, because although we have heard a great deal of detail from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, about conditions of service and that sort of thing, I think we ought to postpone discussion of them until we have received the White Paper. This debate may perhaps hit the air somewhat, because we are waiting for the White Paper, and we are debating somewhat in ignorance if there are any changes or amendments in the Government's view as expressed at the end of July, but we shall probably do some good by discussing them now.
On top of that, as I mentioned a week or two ago, we are really discussing this subject in the wrong order, because surely we ought to await the outcome of the Defence Review to hear the projected make and shape of our national forces, Navy, Army and Air Force, before we discuss one of those components—that is to say, the Reserve or Territorial Army.

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We are discussing this matter in isolation, and it is therefore somewhat difficult. As the noble and gallant Viscount has said, this reorganisation is a long time overdue. I have to declare an interest, in having been connected with the Territorial Army on more than one occasion. It is quite remarkable to me how that Army stood up and provided such efficiency and spirit, when I observe that its rôle has been by no means clear for the last ten or twelve years.
Here I would make one small challenge to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, because he mentioned that the Army Emergency Reserve was way ahead of the Territorial Army in recruiting—up to 100 per cent. I ought to tell him privately afterwards, perhaps, the name of the unit, but the unit with which I was concerned was 90 per cent., recruited because we rejected the other 10 per cent. If a fellow did not turn up for his drills, or if we did not like the look of him, we threw him out before he even joined. We could fill up the parachute battalions at any time we wanted. Incidentally, before we leave sentiment and tradition—because I think they ought to be kept out of this debate—it would perhaps interest the House to know that I was told by a Regular parachute officer that when any of the companies of the four Territorial parachute battalions worked alongside Regular units in exercises all over the world, they were indistinguishable from the Regulars.
I think we ought to leave sentiment, tradition and history behind us, and get down to the actual rôle. Is there a rôle required for the Reserve Army, apart from the Reserve element? It falls into two parts, I suggest. First, there is this Reserve element, which the Government are quite right to tailor for the requirements of the Regular Army. That has been long overdue, and whatever the details settled between the Ministry of Defence, the Territorial associations, the unions and the employers, I feel sure that it will work out for the best. It has been required for the last ten years, and it is a welcome step.
The second part of the duties of the Reserve Army and the Territorial Army is to fight alongside the Regular Army in war. It has done so with great distinc-
824
tion, as we have heard, in the last two world wars. It is at this point where we ought really to discuss whether there is a future rôle for the Territorial Army. Again we can divide it, for convenience, into overseas and home defence. I feel sure that the Minister of Defence is right in rejecting the need for a separate Territorial Army for overseas, other than a few reinforcing units. There he is right. But we have not mentioned in any of the official Papers whether doing away with our home defence, 107,000 of them to-day, ten divisions, does not in fact diminish the credibility of the British deterrent and, much more important, the credibility of the NATO deterrent. If, by a unilateral action, we diminish the credibility of the deterrent, we are doing something which in my opinion we ought not to do. I wonder whether we have consulted our allies on this point. Certainly the Russians take some notice of the size of our Reserve Army, as they do of the American Reserve Army. The National Guard is 700,000 strong.
Lastly, what happens in the overseas rôle, supposing B.O.A.R., all 55,000 of them, are obliterated on Day 1, Day 2 or Day 3? What happens then? It is quite possible, under the new conditions of warfare, where escalation takes place rapidly, for us to be without an Army. Last time we were very nearly without an Army. The wind and the tide were in the right direction, and we got a lot of them home. Perhaps we shall not have that chance next time. Should we like to be in a nuclear war without any Army at all? That is a question to be answered.
Now I come to home defence. Here, again, it is best to split it. First of all, there is the anti-invasion rôle. Of course, the militia and the Territorial Army have been defending this country against seaborne invasion ever since Napoleonic times. I agree with the Government that we do not need to take out that insurance policy. But I am not so sure about one against airborne invasion. At the moment this country is the only NATO ally—or about to be—without any home defence, if we obliterate or abolish the greater part of the Territorial Army. Russia has seven airborne divisions, of which two can go into the sky at one time, and another two can come in a few days' time. Supposing we have no home

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defence armies in this country and we are the only NATO country to have no home defence: do we not present a perfect target? That is another question.
Then we come to Civil Defence. In their White Paper, the Government have so far rejected the idea that the Territorial Army is required for the support of Civil Defence. I am not so sure about that. If you talk to the head Civil Defence people who are in the game, as I have done, they say that Civil Defence without the Territorial Army at the present time does not make sense. Again, a more basic question: are we to give up Civil Defence altogether, so long as there is a threat of nuclear war? I do not believe we should give it up. If we keep Civil Defence, and if the Civil Defence organisation requires a Territorial Army supporting force, as I believe it does, then we ought to examine the question very carefully before we abolish this force. At the present time it takes part in the fire fighting and the field ambulance work. The signals and the communications system of Civil Defence are greatly supported by the Territorial Army.
But, much more important, Civil Defence relies at present on the Territorial Army for the maintenance of law and order in those terrible conditions which may come about if these big bombs are dropped. No man can say what terrible situations will arise, but it is possible to say with certainty that if we want an Army to operate in such awful conditions with the sympathy of the general public, we could not select a better Army than the Territorial Army, because it comes from the people; it is much closer to the people than the Regular Army, the Navy or the Air Force. That is just a fact of life. Therefore, I should like the Government to reconsider this point.
My conclusions are, first, that there should be a home defence rôle established for the Territorial Army in the future; second, that it is specially required in support of Civil Defence, but that airborne invasion should not be completely ignored, and, third, if we decide that some sort of Territorial Army force is required, it should be organised on a very lightly armed basis, probably a standard unit, without any heavy divisional or brigade headquarters even, on a basis of one per county and one, two or three in each big city. That would probably bring
826
us to between 60 and 70 smaller, lightly armed units, strong in communications, which is almost exactly half the present number of 130 units. It is only a suggestion, and obviously not to be discussed in detail until the fundamental questions have been asked and answered.
Therefore, may I ask the Government to answer three questions? And here I have to apologise, because if the debate goes on for very long I have to go to another engagement. Before the Government reach this important decision, may I ask them to answer these questions? First, have they catered in their plan for what the noble and gallant Field Marshal mentioned, namely, the fourth course, that is to say, the unforeseen? It does not look as if they have. It looks as though they have taken out an insurance policy for a known set of eventualities when it is the unknown with which we have to compete. Second, if the Regular Army were to be destroyed, ought we to be without some sort of Territorial Army for the defence of this country? Third, if Civil Defence, on a re-examination, does require some Army support, ought we not to examine how deeply and how effectively we can give it from our organisation of the Territorial Army?
LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE: My Lords, may I just ask the noble Lord one question? He mentioned the seven Russian airborne divisions; I am not quite certain how they would be supplied. I think on D-Day we had to send 50,000 tons of supplies out of the country.
LORD BOURNE: That is perfectly true: it is quite a difficult supply and tactical question. But if you are jumping into a country suffering from severe disorganisation and disruption owing to nuclear bombing, I think the question of supply for an invading force would be considerably easier than for that of the people living in the country. I do not think it would necessarily be an impediment to a successful, rapid airborne invasion.
4.55 p.m.
THE EARL OF COURTOWN: My Lords, I also should perhaps declare an interest, in that I have been concerned in many respects with the Territorial Army for a great many years. I think we all accept that some sort of reshaping of the Reserve Army is necessary at this time.

827
The question is: what sort of reshaping? I shall read with great interest Lord Shackleton's description of some of the aspects which are coming into the White Paper. It was difficult to follow him as he spoke it, therefore in commenting one has to base one's ideas rather on what has been announced prior to this debate.
I should like to ask a number of questions which in some ways are complementary to those of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. First of all, there is the question of what sort of emergency the Reserve Army is required for? There is considerable need for the reinforcement of the Regular Army when it is short of men overseas, and it seems to me that even if the Regular Army reached its target—and it is not very far below its target to-day—it would still need reinforcement whenever any quite minor emergency occurred in foreign parts. The assumption is that orthodox war is now out; that never again shall we have to face an orthodox war which will involve the enrolment in the Services of a large part of the civilian population. Whether or not that is true, I leave it to others to speculate; but at any rate it is the fashion at this time to assume that in the future it will be nuclear war, and nuclear war only, with which we have to deal.
My Lords, what happens if we get nuclear war? We presumably get nuclear bombs dropped on this country. We presumably get a considerable destruction of life and property here, and we are assuming that our forces overseas will then strike back. But in those circumstances what will the defence of this country be? What will be left? What will there be if we destroy the Territorial Army—an Army spread widely over the countryside? On what will the defence of this country be based? It seems to me essential that we should have something like a reshaped Territorial Army, an Army spread widely over the countryside, ready to take up the duties of Civil Defence and to provide the basis for further resistance.
Then we come to the question of the recruitment of people for the new Reserve Army. It is essential that we attract the right sort of people, and the type of man required is the type who is going to remain in a highly trained condition in
828
spite of the fact that he gets comparatively little training. It is this type of man on whom industry and commerce base so much of the future expansion in this country. This is the type of man who is working in the professions, and we have to make sure that we can get this type of man in the future. Unless we have a state of affairs whereby such a man can come into the Reserve Army, play his part in it, yet know that he is not going to be called out to support a brigade group in the Persian Gulf—unless there is that feeling of continuity in his civilian job, the Government will find it difficult to get the people they require.
It has also been said that the new Reserve Army is to consist largely of non-fighting troops. If a volunteer wants to join the Army on a part-time basis, it is mainly due to a spirit of adventure. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, referred to the Parachute Regiment and its high standard of recruitment. This is because men have joined in a spirit of adventure. We shall not find nearly so many people of that type joining these logistic units of the Reserve Army. Yet we are told that the future recruitment for this Army appears to turn much more towards the logistic units than to fighting troops.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, implied, at any rate, in his speech that the recruitment for the Army Emergency Reserve was better than for the Territorial Army. He gave his own figures. As I took them down they were these: the strength of the establishment for the Territorial Army is 123,000, and 110,000 have been recruited. That gives a figure of 90 per cent. recruited. He described the Army Emergency Reserve, Category I, as having an establishment of 11,000, with 9,000 recruited, which gives a figure of 82 per cent. The standard of recruitment of the Army Emergency Reserve, Category II, is very much lower. That does not give a great deal of support to the idea that one is going to be able, under the terms as we have them up till now, to recruit the sort of people needed for the future Reserve Army.
There is also the question of the employer. Of this aspect I have some knowledge. The Territorial Army has depended very much on the full support of industry and commerce to fill its ranks. Employers, including the nationalised industries, cannot be expected to support,

829
or at least condone, their employees' joining the Reserve Army if they are liable to be called up at short notice, except for some major emergency clearly involving a considerable proportion of the country's efforts. It is essential that the Government, in their White Paper, should give a clear indication of the circumstances in which volunteers will be called up. If the Government do not get the Reserve they want, if the doubts about volunteers should turn out to be well based, what do the Government intend to do about it? If, when they have destroyed the Territorial Army, they do not get the recruits, what do they intend to do about it? Will they consider bringing in some form of selective conscription? I think the House ought to know what is the intention of the Government in this respect.
With regard to the Youth Service, the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, mentioned the question of the Army Cadet Force, and mentioned that more than 50 per cent. of the units are based on Territorial Army drill halls. In my own experience, pretty well every Army Cadet unit is based on some Territorial Army drill hall and exists only as a result of great support from the Territorial Army. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, did not refer to this point, but what is the future intention in connection with the Army Cadet Force and will this be dealt with in the White Paper? If the destruction of the Territorial Army is going to have a serious effect on the Army Cadet Force, what effect will that, in its turn, have on Regular Army recruiting?
How is this £20 million which has been mentioned to be saved? I say £20 million though I do not think it has been mentioned in this debate—I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, mentioned any figure. But I have seen it written that it was intended to save £20 million by the changes in the Territorial Army. If that is so, how is this sum to be broken down? I suggest that a considerable amount of this may lie in the cost of the Regular soldiers attached to the Territorial Army. If so, what is to be done with the officers, warrant officers and N.C.O.s at present attached to the Territorial Army? There will be an immediate surplus in the numbers of those, and saving will be achieved only if they are discharged. On the other hand, a
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reduction in the commissioned and non-commissioned ranks will reduce by a considerable amount the promotion available in the Regular Army, with its inevitable effect on Regular recruitment. Everybody connected with the Territorial Army is fully cognisant of the fact that there is a considerable saving to be achieved, but a study should be carried out to see what saving can be achieved without affecting seriously this country's defence.
There is no doubt that there is necessity for change. The Territorial Army never likes change; nor does anybody else. But change is necessary to meet changing requirements. The changes which are proposed now are likely to be obsolete in a few years' time. I have seen any number of reorganisations of the Territorial Army, and on each occasion in five years' time it has always had to be changed again. There has been no serious difficulty in the past, because there has been spread over the country a solid basis of Territorial units which could be switched to meet the requirements of the time. What appears to be the worst point of the present reorganisation is that it is destroying the whole basis of the T.A. with the solid base in every part of the country. It is easy to destroy a unit, but it will be almost impossible to start one again in the future. An example of this occurred not long ago in the early 1950s, just after the disbandment of Anti-Aircraft Command and a number of T.A. regiments attached to it. The Territorial Army associations were asked to collaborate in the formation of 48 Mobile Defence Corps battalions of the Army Emergency Reserve. What happened? Nothing. It was quite impossible to recruit them. It is now a matter of history that this was a complete failure. And I suggest that this sort of thing will happen in the future.
Therefore, my Lords, in our defence thinking we must be flexible enough to maintain our basic resources and adapt them to suit the requirements of the time. What the Government seem to be attempting now will, if carried through on the lines which seem to be intended, destroy a basis and a tradition, and thus will affect the ability of future Governments to reshape the basis of our Reserve Army.
5.7 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I must begin by apologising in advance to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, because an engagement that I entered into before this debate was put down will make it necessary for me to leave before he replies; so I shall read tomorrow what he has to say. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, is in the Chamber. May I add my congratulations to those of others, particularly as he comes from a county, Warwickshire, whose support of the Territorial Army and all to do with it is known to be second to none.
The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, raised the question as to whether it was right to put down this Motion in advance of the White Paper. I know my noble friend Lord Thurlow thought very carefully over this point, and certainly I did myself. I felt that there were White Papers and White Papers. Some White Papers, like the recent one called The Child, the Family and the Young Offender, set out a certain line of thought on the part of the Government with the object, among others, of testing public opinion and seeing what happens. That is indeed what did happen on the debate on the Address, and I shall be very much surprised if the proposals for the child, the family and the young offender remain quite the same as they would have done if certain noble Lords on both sides had not spoken. But our fear was that this White Paper would not quite fall into that category and would present us with an accomplished fact; and because we thought that in certain directions, not in all, the thinking in the White Paper was very far from right, we were very anxious indeed to have an opportunity of putting these views to the House before it was too late and before too much loss of face would be felt in adopting any suggestions on which we might think we were able to convince Her Majesty's Government. So I shall try to say the few words I am going to say in the spirit in which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, asked us to speak—namely, an objective spirit.
I think one can begin by saying that his speech did a very great deal to clear the air, and if nobody else had spoken at all it would have justified my noble friend in putting down the Motion for this debate. For one thing, to my mind,
832
at least, it greatly narrowed the field of disagreement; and so, for my part, I do not want to go into any of the arguments surrounding the arrangements for providing reserves for the Regular Army. I think there is a great deal of common ground in principle. There may be important differences in detail; but, as I see it, they are not for debate to-day. Nor, I think, could anybody disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, when he said that the Territorial Army was over-ripe for reorganisation. Everybody who knows about it knows how right he was.
So we begin to find that the area of disagreement has little or nothing to do with the problem of providing regular reserves and their state of readiness—anyway, not in principle. It has a great deal to do with the decision not to use the Territorial Army for Civil Defence or home defence in any form, because that decision, if it stands, will have the result of destroying the roots and the sources of national military effort in the country.
Therefore, it would be my contention, and I think that of many others, that although there are proved arguments as put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in favour of the course which the Government now proposes, when you look more widely at those arguments they are far outweighed by other arguments most of which have by now been produced in this House to-day, and therefore I am not going to repeat them in full. As I said before, in the debate of the Address I think that the point at which (if I may use the expression) Her Majesty's Government took a slightly wrong turning was in not making wider inquiries outside the professonal circles of the Ministry of Defence, because I think that if they had they would have learned a great deal about the uses of the Territorial Army, which may not be strictly military, and may not be easy in their advantages to reduce to statistics.
It has been most interesting to me to see how the country has begun to react. The announcement was made at the end of July at a time when Parliament was rising and most people went away for their holidays. It was not for about another six weeks or two months that the Territorial Army itself and, even more important, the country as a whole,

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realised the full implications of the Government's decision about Civil Defence; and that realisation was also delayed because, as I have said before, the Civil Defence organisation had no idea that this change was going to be made, and when they discovered what was going to happen they took the view most strongly that Civil Defence in its present form, or indeed in any form, short of a complete counsel of despair at the arrival of nuclear warfare, could not possibly carry on its duties without reinforcement by a body of trained and disciplined men like the Territorial Army, or the Home Guard in the last war—whom I saw myself, the day after the two raids in Glasgow and Manchester; and what I am thinking now, in saying these few words on it, is based on personal experience.
So we come to this vital conflict of opinion. I do not want to say any more about that, because it was put in so crystal clear a fashion by the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Montgomery of Alamein. If you accept his version, and then add up all the different things that would flow from the adoption of ideas such as he spoke of in the House, a whole lot of things will begin to fall into place. You get your insurance against the possibility that the Government may have been mistaken in taking what I will call such a high and dry nuclear view of the requirements of home defence. You get the insurance of possible expansion to an Army of a large size in the event of the enemy, whoever he is, taking the fourth course.
Here I should like to comment on something that the noble and gallant Field Marshal said when he said that Lord Haldane formed the Territorial Army in 1908. So he did. But he built it on foundations which were age-old—foundations going right back to Tudor times. I am saying this in no alarmist fashion. If the present proposals for the Territorial Army go through, those age-old foundations will be destroyed because, as I understand it, the present plan deprives some counties of any representation at all, and in other counties it is so small that those resources will be dried up.
So I would agree with those noble Lords who have already spoken when they
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beg the Government most earnestly to think again about this second point and to see whether, on balance, something in the nature of the two-tier system will have advantages which outweigh the advantages, whatever they may be, of saving the amount of money, whatever it is—and it is largely problematical. The more one looks at this problem, the more one sees that a two-tier organisation, if adopted, cannot possibly conflict with any of the theories which have been given to this House as the Government theories by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. It may increase the expense slightly, but you must add up all the advantages which you will get—the possibility of expansion, the certainty of assisting the Civil Defence, the traditional and social values, which I agree must only be put into the makeweight and not be made as the main cause of argument, and last but not least, the value of the Army Cadet Force. By the way, I should like to say to my noble friend Lord Courtown, as President of the Army Cadet Force Association, that it is my understanding that their affairs have been dealt with separately, and I would much prefer that they should be kept separate.
That is all I have to say. I could say more, but I do not want to take the time of your Lordships' House by repeating what have been excellent arguments from the speakers before me, and keep noble Lords waiting for the excellent arguments which are coming after my remarks.
5.20 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, I seem to have been left to defend these trenches single-handed. My noble friends have not deserted or gone over to the enemy; they have merely retired to Committee Room No. 4 for a briefing conference, which is quite another matter. I have every reason to believe that the "thin red line" will very soon be back at their stations.
As one who did his soldiering in the same regiment as that in which the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, spent his early days—
VISCOUNT MONTGOMERY or ALAMEIN: My Lords, the noble Lord has not got his regimental tie on.
LORD LEATHERLAND: Not to-day, no. The noble Viscount had not his on

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last time, so I thought that on this occasion we had both better be dressed in the same way. I was glad, though perhaps a little surprised, to find myself agreeing with him on one basic point, if I do not perhaps put it in the same elegant words as he used. The Ministry appear to be kicking away the ladder on which the reservists are expected to climb.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, assured us that the Government will give some consideration to the views which are expressed in this House to-day. I am delighted to hear that, but it seemed to me that he still stands wedded to his major premise—that is, that reservists are needed but that the Territorial Army as a home defence army is not needed. I think it is the view of many of us in this House and of countless people outside that a home defence army is still needed, and that without that Territorial home defence Army it will be more difficult than ever to recruit those reservists who are urgently needed for the Regular Forces.
I see on the list of speakers the names of several generals. I must explain that I never was a general, but that perhaps is just one more mistake we must lay at the door of what we used to call the old War Office. However, I have taken a deep interest in the Territorial Army and its affairs. For twenty years I have been a member of the governing body of the Territorial Army Association for my county. I am a Deputy Lieutenant for my county, which perhaps gives me a special reason for coming to the aid of the Territorial Army. But I do not want to base anything I say on a sentimental appeal of that kind. We must approach this matter quite objectively. I feel that if there is any questioning or any criticism of the Ministry's policy, it has to be done in that frame of mind.
It has been said—and I will say it again—that the Territorial Army as it at present exists certainly does not meet the needs of modern strategy. For one thing, it has been very badly starved of modern equipment. For that I am afraid blame must be put on the members of previous Administrations. But the Territorial Army has potentialities, and the day might come when we shall be very glad of it, just as we have been glad of it on two occasions in my own lifetime.
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When all is said and done, all defence systems are an insurance policy. You may not need to use them very often, you may never need to use them at all, but it is very nice to feel that they are around and about if the occasion should ever arise. That is a factor which, I suggest to the Ministry, cannot be properly assessed in the costing system which from time to time has been mentioned in documents on this reorganisation.
It is, in a way, a disadvantage that we are discussing this matter before we have seen the White Paper. We are virtually shooting at an invisible target, as the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, pointed out. But there is another point of view. There may be an advantage in our discussing this subject here to-day before the White Paper comes out, in that the Ministry can take note of what we say and will then be in a position to modify their original proposals without any serious loss of prestige. We are here to-day talking as ordinary citizens, some perhaps with more experience than others, giving advice which we think can be useful and taking the whole matter to-day out of Party politics, although it may not be possible to take it out of Party politics later on. That is why I think there is a real advantage in our being able to discuss the matter to-day in the absence of a finalised White Paper.
We have to remember that there have been various defence reorganisations suggested in the past, and they have not always been of unquestionable wisdom. For instance, a few years ago we were very nearly called on to scrap the Royal Air Force. I think we have to bear in mind—and if I descend to the vernacular it is only in a respectful way—that the present vintage of "brass hats" need not necessarily be right. Their successors may take a quite different view. If one made an analysis, I think one would find that the professional advisers at the highest level have from time to time taken different views of perhaps an unchanged set of circumstances. I do not want to criticise the professional experts—it would be improper of me to do so—but the thought sometimes crosses my mind that if these professional experts, soldiers of very high degree, dedicated to their caste, were asked to make a

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£20 million economy at the War Department, they might well, out of loyalty to their class, desire to preserve the integrity of the Regular Forces and say: "Let us throw the semi-civilian Territorial Army to the wolves". I do not suggest that that has actually happened, but it is an attitude of mind that could exist.
I think that to accept automatically the views of the professional advisers would he a mistake. We have already seen in Germany what a menace it can be if the professional military élite become a superior, exclusive element in the Constitution, sacred from the criticism of civilians. There is a good deal to be said for a sizeable citizen army. Intercourse between that citizen army and the professional army and its hierarchy can do a good deal to prevent the professional army from shutting itself up in a closed compartment. I do not want to see the professional army, especially the higher ranks, withdrawing into their shells, remote from the civilian world. Apart from other considerations, it is not good for democracy.
It is quite obvious that there will have to be alterations in the Territorial Army's rôle and in its constitution, as well as in regard to the strategy, personnel and rôles of the Defence Forces as a whole. We are living in a nuclear age, and just as in the 1914 War many of us suffered because of the old Boer War mentality in the military hierarchy, so we might suffer to-day unless we are prepared to look ahead and not merely look backwards. So I commend the Government for making a comprehensive review of the whole defence situation. But there again we do not yet know what the Review findings are. I do not complain about this. I do not think it ought to be rushed, because when a few years ago we were confronted with a revolutionary assessment of the rôle of the Royal Air Force, that was rushed and it did harm. It threw all our thinking about defence matters right off balance.
However, while we are waiting for the Defence Review, and while the professional experts and Ministers are fitting together the various pieces in the jigsaw, it will be premature for us to scrap one branch of the defence forces until we can see the whole picture. That is one reason why I am opposed to the immediate
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proposal of the Ministry. It is one thing to knock Humpty-Dumpty off the wall. It is a very different matter to put him together again in circumstances of urgency and emergency.
In their review, the experts will no doubt try to assess the whole world situation. They will look ahead for a period of years. They will do the best they can. They will try to think of the sphere in which war will come. They will try to calculate who will be attacked by whom, and by whom the victim will have to be defended. They will do that to the best of their ability. But in both the wars that we know of, the prognostications of the experts were wrong, or else the preparations were wholly inadequate, and in both cases this country had to resort to very hasty improvisations.
Now the basic alteration that is suggested is that there is no rôle for the Territorial Army in home defence. That assumes that we shall never again have to fight on the beaches. It assumes that there will be no war involving Europe, or, if there is, it will be a nuclear war which will be over in 48 hours. It assumes the existence of a loyal NATO; but will there be a loyal NATO? Can we see so far ahead as that? Might not some country contract out? Might not some country surrender as soon as the first vital blow is struck? I place a lot of faith in NATO but I think we have to view its limitations as well. It also assumes that there is going to be no war in Europe, say, for the next ten years, just as many of us assumed in 1929 that in the ten years to 1939 there would be no war in Europe. If war did come, if it were the nuclear war about which my noble friend Lord Shackleton spoke, then amidst all that wreckage and all that chaos, all that frantic fear among the civilian population, would not the presence of 100,000 trained, disciplined men be of value? And how useful would that same 100,000 trained disciplined men be in the few days of tension before the war actually began, in watching our vital spots and defending them against saboteurs, fifth columnists and all the underground techniques of modern warfare!
The Ministry may retort, "Well, we have 160,000 Regular soldiers." The answer to that is that they are spread all round the world, and in the event

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of any sudden outbreak it might not be at all possible to get them home. The Ministry may say that they have around 50,000 troops in this country, but many of them are base details, perhaps not the kind of people suitable for active service, and in any case it might be difficult to move them from the static posts where they happen to be stationed. The Ministry may say as well, "We have the civilian Civil Defence force." We have, but we have had warning that it is shortly to be cut down. That argument also overlooks the fact that the Civil Defence force as we know it now, with its present strength, depends to a very large extent for its fire-fighting manpower on the Territorial Army; it depends to a lesser but still considerable extent on the Territorial Army for its rescue manpower; and it depends largely on the Territorial Army for its communications and signals and its transport, too. Of course, in those circumstances of emergency we might manage to recruit an untrained Home Guard; but why have to go to that trouble and take that risk by throwing away the best Home Guard this country ever had—the Territorial Army?
So long as there is a prospect of a nuclear war, I feel that the Territorial Army must be maintained. I know that Russia is not now looked upon as a potential enemy in Europe. I know that United States aid would be available for us in the event of any conflict. But I also remember that in the last two wars the wars were well advanced before the United States stepped in. We also have to remember that there are many other countries which in the next ten years will attain major nuclear status, and some of those are ruled by very spiteful men. So I think it is wrong to scrap the home defence army. I think it is wrong materially; I think it is wrong psychologically. I think it is wrong to do so prematurely, before we know anything about the proposals for cutting down Civil Defence, and I think it is wrong to do so prematurely until we have received the Defence White Paper with all the details of all the Services there explained to us.
But if we assume that there is to be no war affecting Britain's homeland in the next ten years, can we say with any cer-
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tainty that there will be no war elsewhere? We have heard of places like Aden, Malaysia, Cyprus and many more, and we have even heard, too, of China. I feel that we might have to draft very large military forces to distant parts of the world at the request of organisations like UNO and NATO and SEATO. We have a very small Regular Army, and if we send all our troops abroad it is going to be very useful to have a Territorial Army at home to fill the gap here. It will at least be very comforting. It is not as though we had a very big Regular Army with queues of recruits lining up outside each recruiting station eager to join.
I think that three things are going to make recruiting for the Regular Army even more difficult in the years to come than it is to-day. The first is the continuance of full employment and the prophecy in the National Plan that we shall soon be short of 200,000 workers for civil employment. The second is the boom in those technical employments which employ just those very skilled technicians of which the Regular Army and the Reserves are shortest to-day. The third is the trend towards early marriage, which means that increasing numbers of young men of recruitable age are going to feel unwilling to be parted from their families. The Ministry, of course, knows all these things and that is why, recognising that there are gaps in the Army, it is seeking to fill those gaps by setting up this organisation of reservists. But will the attempts to get those reservists succeed if the Territorial Army itself is filleted? They will be sending home disgruntled Territorials; the kind of men who might otherwise have become volunteers. They will be disbanding Territorial Army units to which many of the "Ever Readies" already belong. They will be drying un a reservoir of potential reservists.
I think we have to remember that many of the "Ever Readies" came forward as a result of encouragement from their Territorial commanders and as a result of assurances that were obtained through civilian employers and trade unionists who are associated with the Territorial Army associations. If the influence of those associations is removed, and if recruiting is to be carried on from purely military channels, then I feel that people are going to be less willing to jeopardise their civilian careers than if

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an employer from the Territorial association can have a chat with their employers and get an assurance from them. Moreover, the new plan proposes to concentrate the whole of the new T.A. in the big towns. That means that many of the best men are going to be shut out of it. So if the Territorial Army is ruined, I feel that the attempt to build up the body of Reserves will also be ruined.
What, then, is left? I think we have to look at this, uncomfortable though it may be to do so. Will the professional advisers then come forward with proposals for selective conscription? Because those places in the Reserves certainly have to be filled. Another point which I will not develop, because it has already been mentioned, is that we are destroying a base from which we might build a massive Army if one were ever needed for a conflagration that might take place in some part of the world. The Regular Army, of course, could do something in that line, but the Regular Army has not the resources to carry out a magnification of the Army such as we had to do in both the world wars which are within our memory.
In view of all these considerations, I do not think the new scheme makes for efficiency, and I doubt whether it makes very much for economy either. We are told that it will save £20 million, but it is not going to save that £20 million until 1969. Nineteen sixty-five, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969. By that time, my Lords, surely, the National Plan will have helped us to such a state of prosperity that the £20 million will be merely a fleabite; yet in this next year, when I presume the need for economy is most urgent, the saving is going to be only £3½ million. If we need economy all this urgently, why not go the whole hog and scrap the Territorial Army completely at this moment and save the whole £20 million? Could it possibly be that that would leave the Army, the defences of this country, in an incomplete condition? I feel that it would.
I do not want to shirk one more thing, my Lords, at the expense of boring you, but there is the sociological factor. I think that too many of the people among whom I move and have my being are inclined to feel that there is a feudalistic atmosphere within the Territorial Army; something that is contrary to modern
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democratic ideas. Certainly in the old days that was the case, particularly in the county Yeomanry Regiments. Then, the C.O. was usually one of the major squires; the squadron commanders were the lesser squires; the adjutant was probably the C.O.'s land agent who ran his estate; the head of the reconnaissance section was probably the gamekeeper (because gamekeepers are people with great versatility); and the lads of the village were conscious of their proper stations.
To-day, all that is changed—and I speak with some knowledge of the Territorial Army. There are some of the squires still left in positions of authority, certainly. It is what they regard as their form of social duty, public service—and not a bad form at that! But among the colonels with whom I am in contact there is one who runs a garage: there is another who runs a garage and a petrol company: there is another who is a manufacturer of underwear; there is another who is a printer: there is another who is an architect, and another who is a civil engineer.
Another colonel was one of my Labour county councillors on the Essex County Council, and there was a major, also, who was another of my county councillors on the Essex County Council. On our county association we have a retired railway clerk and a full-time trade union official; and a few years ago the company sergeant major of one unit was the secretary of the local Labour Party of which I myself was the chairman. There are serving in the Territorial Army throughout the country to-day thousands of men who are loyal and dedicated trade unionists. I think the social picture of the organisation has completely changed in the last two or three generations.
To sum up, my Lords, I see things like this. I think it is a mistake to be premature and to take a decision before we get the White Paper, giving us the whole picture. I think it is a mistake to take a decision prematurely, before we get details of the Civil Defence reorganisation. I know that greater efficiency is needed, but I do not think this is the way to get it. I do not think it will produce the "Ever-Readies", the reservists, who are urgently needed. It will also remove a base for expansion, which is a very important sector of our military organisation to-day, and I think it would

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be wrong to leave this country without a Home Defence Army.
There is, I believe, a workable scheme that can be put up. I think that if the Territorial Army were cut down to 100,000—I would even go as low as 90,000 or 85,000—probably by dispensing with some of the smaller units, you could then let the reservists do their basic military training with the Territorial units; you could send them away at week-ends for their specialised training at Regular Army depots. By keeping the Territorial Army publicly respected (which is a very important thing) you could maintain a reservoir from which these "Ever-Readies" or reservists could be drawn; and at the same time you would have quite a fair-sized and competent Home Defence Army. I fear that we shall not get all the reservists if the recruiting is to be directed from Whitehall through the commands, instead of through the employers and the trade union officials who serve on the associations. For this reason I should like to see the associations kept in being, although I admit that in these circumstances they will have to be of a limited size.
Finally, I want to congratulate the Government (I suppose it is right and proper, seeing that I stand on this side of the House) on the measures they have already taken, and on the measures they are proposing to take generally to increase the efficiency of the Defence forces, and also to bring about such measures of economy as are possible. I believe that they got things right in their Election Manifesto, when they said:
"Our stress will be on the strengthening of our conventional Regular Forces…".
But, my Lords, those Regular Forces are not being notably strengthened at present, and I think we can best compensate for that weakness by keeping the T.A. at sufficient strength to supply the reserves and, at the same time, supply us with a substantial measure of home defence. I think the best thing that could happen now would be for a completely fresh start to be made; for the Army Department to get together with the Council of the Territorial Associations and produce a completely new scheme which might meet the needs of the Government.
My Lords, there are many fields of voluntary public service open to the
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citizens of this country. Some of us render that public service through the medium of words, some of us through deeds. Those who render that public service through deeds may be mistaken, but do not let us scorn them simply because they want to serve.
5.48 p.m.
LORD MARGADALE: My Lords, I rise with considerable diffidence this afternoon because, except for my maiden speech, this is the only time I have addressed this House. I should say that I have had a long connection with the Territorial Army. I am still connected with the Yeomanry in an honorary capacity; and the Yeomanry in particular, I think, not without justification, consider that they are rather more than ordinarily "hard done by" under the proposals which we understand are being considered. I was very glad to hear the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, when he said that all the various points raised in this debate would be considered very closely. I am quite sure that I speak for all those who serve in the Territorial Army, men and women (and they are members of all political Parties, or of none) when I say that certainly they do not wish to drag politics into the Territorial Army if it can possibly be avoided. I believe that further thoughts on the White Paper, before it is produced, could achieve unity and bridge the gulf between the various points of view more readily than might at one time have appeared to be possible.
Mention has been made of the "Ever-Readies", but what has not been said in the course of the debate is that a very high percentage of the "Ever-Readies" come from the "teeth" arms, yet it is these "teeth" arms in the present Territorial Army which are to be scrapped. I can only conclude that it may well be more difficult, rather than easier, to get adequate numbers of men to join the proposed new Reserve Army if the whole of our traditional county and regimental spirit is scrapped overnight, which seems to be the proposal. Therefore, as the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, and others have said, I hope most sincerely that it will be possible to maintain that spirit and those county affiliations, possibly on the lines of the two-tier set-up mentioned by the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein.

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I feel that the thought so far has been on tying the Territorial Army too closely to a particular role. Through the years, individual parts of it have played all sorts of roles, quite usefully and effectively, I believe, in war. Therefore, I believe that they are capable of flexibility and of adapting themselves very considerably. According to expert opinion, nuclear war is likely to be the order of the day in the next war. But I feel strongly that this may not be so. We all trust that we shall be able to avoid that. We read in the newspapers of a good many wars going on at the moment; and I am glad to see they are not nuclear wars.
Nobody has yet answered one point which worries me very considerably. If there are troubles in Germany and in Aden, or possibly other danger spots in the world, and if more of our Regular forces have to go overseas than at present, what will happen to the people of this country and to the particularly vulnerable parts of the country if, for instance, there were an aerial parachute attack? There seems to be no home security on that basis. I believe that is an important point that we should remember.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, that the scrapping of the Territorial forces would have a very adverse effect on recruitment for the Regular army. Whole counties and areas would have no Territorial force, and their civilian population would not see any men in uniform and so be encouraged to join our Regular Forces. I believe that considerable savings can be effected on the Territorial forces and on equipment not only of various regiments themselves but on drill halls, and so on, and to some extent, also, at Territorial Army Council level. I do not think I have detected any argument about that during the debate this afternoon.
I wonder whether, from the expert point of view, there is unity of thought on one or two little matters, supposing we are planning for a conventional war. At the present time I note in various local newspapers that another £2 million is being spent on Machrihanish Airport, which I occasionally visit on my way home. It is already so long that one cannot see the other end. More money is to be spent on Stornoway Airfield, which is very useful from the internal
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communications point of view. But that must be planning for a conventional war.
On the other hand, experts are saying that the only kind of war envisaged is a nuclear war. The same applies to oil storage in hidden places, which one must not mention but which one knows about. This, too, is planning for long-term conventional war. I would add that as I understand it, with modern aerial photography, from high-level aeroplanes or from satellities, it is possible to photograph objects of only 10 square feet. That makes all airfields very vulnerable and it also makes aircraft carriers very vulnerable. But a little more money saved there could, I believe, avoid cutting out the Territorial Army which means so much to a good many people in this country and is, I believe, essential for home security.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Did I understand him to suggest that the Territorial Army might defend the aircraft carriers? I did not quite follow his arguments.
LORD MARGADALE: My Lords, I was not suggesting that. I was suggesting that possibly a little more saving in the limited amount of money which we all realise is available from the taxpayers, and possibly a little more cheeseparing, would enable our Territorial Forces to be maintained as the vital home defence security which so many people feel they should be.
I might add one thing. I have here, in my pocket, a draft proposal for the re-organisation of the Territorial Army and the new proposed force. It has not been published; it has not been approved by the Territorial Army Association and it has not been seen by the Ministry of Defence. In due course I hope that it will. I believe that it will bridge the gulf between saving money and maintaining county and regimental loyalities. As the noble Lord said that he would consider all points, I will not weary the House with this proposal, but perhaps I might send it to him. I believe that it is very good. It has been compiled by three serving members of the Territorial Army. Of course, Territorial Army serving personnel have not been consulted at all about the Government's present proposal. It is they who will have to carry it out,

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and work it in the future, and I believe that they should be consulted.
5.57 p.m.
LORD AMPTHILL: My Lords, I must preface the few remarks I wish to make by apologising to the House and to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, because I have an important appointment at 7.30 or 7.45 which I cannot escape and may have to leave the House before he replies. When I entered this Chamber this afternoon my noble and gallant friend beside me said, "Well, are you taking part in this debate?" I said that I was, and he asked why. I replied, "I am the naval beachmaster. Every military assault has at least one naval beachmaster. And here I am." The assault troops have gone in; I think they have made a deep penetration; and I shall not keep your Lordships very long from the following troops which include very heavy metal. However, joking apart, I feel it to be my duty to take part in this debate and to support the Motion of my noble friend Lord Thurlow.
I have had a very long and close connection with the Territorial Army in that my father, my kinsmen and my friends have served in it in both world wars. In fact, my father commanded the Third Battalion, the Special Reserve Battalion, of the Bedfords in August, 1914, and eventually went to France with another battalion of that Regiment. Also—of no importance at all to me, because it did not belong to me or to my father—the Third Battalion of the Bedfords always went to their annual camp in Ampthill Park. As I say, apart from my father, my kinsmen and many of my friends served in the Territorial Army during both world wars. Moreover, both before and after the Second World War, during my business career I was in a position to encourage many young men to join the Territorial Army whether as officers or as other ranks; to follow their careers with interest, and to help them to make the necessary arrangements with their firms for annual training and so forth. I mention these things to show that I have had a very long and close interest in Territorial Army affairs. This has convinced me that, in its officers and men, the country has a trained and disciplined force which would be of incalculable value in an emergency.
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I think that we shall always need such a force, despite the great technical and political changes in the world scene to-day. After all, throughout our long history we have from time to time found it necessary to call on volunteers to assist in the country's defence. True it is no longer necessary to summon them to arms by lighting bonfires on every hill from Land's End to John o' Groats; it is done more simply. But, of course, the most recent example of calling on volunteers was the formation of the Local Defence Volunteers, which later, in 1939, became the Home Guard. My noble friend Lord Bridgeman has told the House of his actual experiences with the Home Guard during the Second World War. My Lords, we cannot foresee the exact circumstances in which they will he needed, but when those circumstances arise, as they will, we shall find that if we keep a force of disciplined men, trained at least in the use of their personal weapons and able to handle wireless sets, trucks and so forth, they will fulfil an absolutely vital need.
Having said that, I must admit that for some time past I have been of the opinion that the time was ripe, if not overdue, for a measure of reorganisation of the Territorial Army, in particular of its training. I agree very much with what was said by my noble friend Lord Thurlow and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and, of course, last but by no means least, by my noble and gallant friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein. I feel that any such reorganisation must pay due regard to the special character of our splendid force of volunteers as well as to the current world situation as it affects our Defence problems. The special qualifications or character of this force, its traditional territorial basis, which dates from far earlier than the start of the Territorial Army, as my noble friend Lord Bridgeman has reminded us, their spirit of service and self-sacrifice and their motives of patriotism inspired what were in effect dedicated men.
Without the promised White Paper before us—I read yesterday, and we have heard to-day, that it will not be before us until mid-December—it is difficulty for me to say anything about the merits or demerits of any scheme which the Government and their advisers may have. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, let a few cats out of the bag during his speech, if I may put it in that way. But this may,

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or may not, have deadened the speculation and the rumours which have been rife for so many months. I was not surprised when the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, speaking from the Government Front Bench on November 11, said that when he visited a T.A. unit in September he discovered that there were a number of misconceptions among the soldiers about Government proposals, misconceptions which were causing a great deal of uncertainty and hardship. My Lords, since September speculation and uncertainty have, if anything, increased. I do not know exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, meant by "hardship", but I can tell him now that the Territorial Army people whom I have met are literally seething with rage.
Can anyone he surprised that that is so, when all these rumours floating round, and when intelligent anticipation by military correspondents, who always seem to be able to get hold of the "dirt" from somewhere, have given the impression, rightly or wrongly, first, that 130 out of 150 famous units, and "teeth" units at that, are to be disbanded; secondly, that the force is to be reduced to 50,000 men, under half its present strength, and, finally, that those who remain will largely be trained and used to provide administrative and technical services for the Regular Army? I know only what I read in the newspapers; I have no special sources of information. But that is the impression which has been left in my mind. I admit that speeches made to-day, by people who are better informed than I, have slightly altered that impression; but the fact remains that that is what the ordinary man has thought and will think, at any rate perhaps until he reads our debate to-day.
It cannot, and does not, need much imagination to understand the effect of these rumours and speculation on the spirit of such famous fighting units as the London Scottish, the Northern Irish Horse, the Honourable Artillery Company and the Bedfords, to name only a few of those units with whom I have fairly close contacts. I imagine the feelings of the Sussex Artillery Regiment, about whom I was told on Sunday night. This Regiment served in the western desert, in Sicily and finally in Normandy. My informant was the Regular Army officer who commanded the Regiment in battle
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in Normandy, and who, previous to war, had had much experience of Territorials in the Midlands. I will not repeat all that he said to me—it was hardly Parliamentary. But I must repeat one thing which he told me, because it bears on what so many of us have mentioned tonight. I refer to the tradition of these units. He told me that one of the proudest traditions of this fine fighting Sussex Regiment was that it had provided gunners for Drake's fleet which smashed the Armada in 1588. Just imagine the intolerable position of commanding officers like my noble friend Lord Ailsa, who during our debate on November 11 asked whether Her Majesty's Government wished the Territorial Army to remain in being in the meantime. Eventually he received the answer, "Yes". I was surprised that he did not immediately ask, "How?"
It seems to me, and to many others, that Her Majesty's Government have gone out of their way utterly to destroy the spirit of the Territorial Army by allowing speculation and rumour to reign unchallenged for so long. It makes one wonder whether the real reason is simply that they have found it impossible to complete their plans for the reorganisation of the Territorial Army until this famous Defence Review is complete. I think this is probably true. We on these Benches have warned and beseeched them time and again about the dangerous results of taking major decisions on Defence policy before this much-heralded Defence Review is complete and appears before Parliament.
My Lords, it is my firm conviction that, at this time, as much as, or more than, at any time in our history, we need a disciplined, trained and adequate force for the home defence of this country. I entirely agree with and support the views expressed by my noble and gallant friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein. All our history and tradition shows this to be necessary, as it also shows that the necessary volunteers will always be forthcoming. The Government should remember the words of my own Commander-in-chief. At a time of crisis in the Eastern Mediterranean he told his Fleet, who were very concerned about shipping losses, "Always remember that it takes three hundred years to build a tradition." The

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Territorial Army has a tradition considerably longer than three hundred years, and I beseech the Government to reconsider carefully what has been said about it, to take advantage of the wonderful spirit and traditions of this force, and to give us a home defence force.
6.10 p.m.
THE EARL OF CROMARTIE: My Lords, since Her Majesty's Government made known that it was intended to streamline the Territorial Army and reassess the whole question of National Defence, after consultation with both political and military experts, many thought that it would have been more honest of the Government if they had said that their firm intention was to abolish the Territorial Army and all vestige of home defence. As to the consultations, one had only to read the various directives to the Territorial Army to get the impression that the only people to be consulted were those who had a built-in antagonism to the whole conception of the Territorial Army.
In passing, it is interesting to note what was characteristic of far too many of the military experts consulted: that few really knew anything about the Territorial Army, and most had a long-standing prejudice against it. They were the ideal "yes men," clever theorists, occupying senior military posts in Whitehall; but their paper theories were faulty, being devoid of a knowledge of history or of human psychology. Especially was this the case when it came to the feelings, beliefs and knowledge of people in the different areas, not only in countries such as Scotland and Wales, but even in their own country, outside the rarefied atmosphere of Whitehall. These are the same men who have that Teutonic desire that famous regiments should lose their identity and be referred to only by numbers.
We should beware of experts. Some of us are old enough to remember the experts who nearly lost us two world wars. If, from the beginning, honest and real consultations had taken place with those best qualified, such as the Territorial Army associations and the many Regular officers who had intimate knowledge through service with Territorial Army units, there would have
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been maximum co-operation in bringing the Reserve Army as a whole up-to-date. Of course, it would have involved changes. We do not mind change, but we do not like dictatorship from people who do not know their job.
It became obvious that this was not desired by the Government who, perhaps for political reasons, had decided to destroy the Territorial Army and the whole conception of home defence. Why, then, did they not carry this policy through to its logical conclusion and abolish Civil Defence as a whole? I had the honour this summer of visiting Devizes, where a famous Scottish Territorial division was training with the Civil Defence, with, I may say, great success. It became obvious that in the event of a nuclear attack of any magnitude, the Civil Defence would depend very greatly on the Territorial units who support them, not only in the realm of fire-fighting and rescue work, but also to maintain law and order, if the situation got beyond the control of the civil police, and this could be done only by disciplined and armed men. Has it not occurred to those concerned that, with a small Regular Army dispersed in the four quarters of the earth, a situation might arise—race riots, for example—when the civil police might require help?
Finally, let us examine for a moment one suggestion of the Government—an increase in the number of "Ever-Readies", who will have to spend much more time away from their employment for training, apart from the liability for lengthy periods abroad. Do the Government really think that employers, especially those with small businesses are going to encourage their key men to do this without a substantial payment in lieu of the services of these men? The ultimate result will have to be, in my opinion, the reintroduction of National Service, but this time the National Service man will have to be paid properly, at the same rate as the Regular soldier. The Government, having destroyed the Territorial Army training organisation and facilities, will have to set up new and expensive methods for training the National Service soldiery. So I do not see much change in this alleged saving of £20 million.

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In addition, what steps do the Government propose to take to set up an alternative to replace a body which provides for young men such a splendid social club, and one with such a spirit of service, pride and real purpose? I do not wish to be too political about this, because I know that a number of noble Lords opposite will agree with me—and I do not see any very Left noble Lords opposite. Will not Her Majesty's Government admit that this alleged saving was perhaps another smokescreen to hide the real reason which lay behind this act of destruction, which could so easily be misconstrued as a sop thrown to the extreme Left Wing in politics, who have always hated the idea of a disciplined, efficient, and patriotic body of citizen soldiers?
6.18 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, a debate in this House on the destruction of the Territorial Army would be a sad occasion, even if the arguments were convincing; but to-day, when the arguments are so unconvincing, it is a doubly sad occasion. There are few noble Lords, I am sure, who would not agree that there is a strong case for reorganising and recasting the Territorial Army from top to bottom, in order to meet modern defence needs, and also the often top-heavy Territorial associations. Equally, there must be few who have been convinced by the arguments deployed so far that there is any good case for the virtual abolition of the Territorial Army, which is what has been proposed.
I believe that one of the considerations is the saving of a few million pounds, but I noticed that little was said about this in the opening speech, and I hope that the noble Lord who is to reply to this debate from the Government Front Bench will tell us a little more about the financial considerations involved. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who I am sorry to see is not now here, said that there was an air of unreality about the previously stated role of the Territorial Army. There may be some unreality about it, but not enough for the emphasis he gave it, and certainly no more unreality than in the opening paragraphs of the Defence Statement which the noble Lord gave to the House on July 29.
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In particular, I should like to speak about the arguments on home defence and home security, and in this I am much encouraged by what the noble and gallant Field Marshal said. Before I began to speak, I was wondering whether I should be justified in placing so much emphasis on the home defence side of the argument. But since he said that security of the home base was vital to any operation, I feel that I am entitled to go ahead.
It is really too naive to say, as the Government statement apparently does, that home defence considerations begin to apply only during the aftermath of a nuclear attack. Nor, I think, is it realistic to suppose that if such considerations did become important there would necessarily be, under the new organisation, units or detachments of the Regular Army available in the right place and at the right time. Home defence and home security is really more elaborate than that. There can be calls on it under many headings. I read in the Daily Telegraph to-day that there has been a call on the Army to provide a small detachment to go to Durham Gaol in order to help the civil power in a particular problem they have there. So there is no real reason to suppose that we must wait until after a nuclear attack before there is any question of the military being useful as an aid to the civil power.
I think I heard the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, say that we could rule out of our planning considerations the question of any large-scale sea and land invasion. On the other hand, surely the question of large-scale raids must still be taken into account. I do not think it is entirely irrelevant to this debate to recall an experience that I had at the beginning of the last war. I can remember how the Territorial brigade to which I was posted on mobilisation, as staff captain, immediately had to find large numbers of men to guard what were then called vulnerable points, before our second-line battalions were capable of taking them over from us, and finally the Home Guard from them, and we were freed to concentrate and carry on with the serious training which was vitally important before we could go overseas.
Looking at that same sort of question to-day, as a member of the Cumberland

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and Westmorland Territorial Association, I suppose I am not giving anything away to any enemy if I refer to three particularly important installations in our area, even though their importance may have struck all noble Lords opposite. I am sure there would be claims for similar guards if, by chance, we were faced with a threat of serious war. We have the atomic power installations on the Cumberland coast; we have the largest B.B.C. installation, for short-wave transmissions, in the country; and we have one of the largest maintenance units of the Royal Air Force. Although the numbers of men normally employed at this last unit are very large, only a handful—I should think less than one per cent—are men enlisted in the R.A.F.; and certainly none of these installations will be able to provide from their own resources proper guards for the very large areas involved.
If you look at the new Reserve Army organisation which is proposed, your Lordships will see that the two counties would be left with approximately one company of infantry to carry out all these duties, apart from any others; and there is no guarantee that the whole or any part of that company would be in the county at a time when it might be called upon for a home defence rôle. Presumably other areas have similar problems. I hope that the noble Lord, when he replies, will be able to tell us, too, whether chief constables up and down the country have expressed to the Government any views about their proposed reorganisation. The poet Milton, writing over rather 300 years ago in one of his sonnets, refers to war being carried on as
"moved by her two main nerves, iron and gold, in all her equipage."
So far as it goes, that is true; but he has forgotten at least the important rôle of the trained, determined and loyal men.
When we discuss the future of the Territorial Army, we often hear the argument that one of the reasons against maintaining the Territorial Army on the basis we have known it, is that modern equipment is so costly; that while it stretches our resources very tightly to provide equipment for the Regular Army, it is a waste to supply it to other units, particularly since so much of it becomes
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out of date so quickly. But surely it is possible for us to re-design the Territorial Army without providing all this elaborate equipment and specialist training such as has been included in the plans in recent years.
It may well be that, when all our resources are matched against our needs, the country will get better value for money if the equipment of the Regular Army and the Regular Reserves is strengthened, rather than issued to the Territorial Army. But even if that is so, it is still no convincing case for destroying the whole Territorial Army. As my noble friend Lord Thurlow and other noble Lords have said, it is surely possible for us to consider a Territorial Army of the future which avoids the elaborate specialist training and the need for expensive equipment and which, instead, concentrates on learning basic military training and mobility.
We need have no guarantee that, in the case of emergency, men would necessarily fight as units, as we always hoped to do in the past. I understand that, among other considerations, the Regular Army is desperately short of R.A.S.C. drivers, and the Territorial units could be one of the sources from which that shortage could be made up. The fact that equipment is expensive does not seem to me to be an adequate reason for destroying the whole Territorial Army. Iron, gold and oil may still be some of the main nerves; but they are not the whole. Surely this country of ours must be the poorer without the voluntary Reserve Army which we have known for several generations. We must recognise the influence for good it has exercised in times of peace, as well as the additional strength it gives this country in time of war. Surely the Government are not going to cast this away for so little saving.
6.27 p.m.
VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE: My Lords, I think I should start by declaring an interest, as I have been actively concerned with the Territorial Army for nearly forty years and I am still an honorary colonel of an infantry battalion. I also have the curious duty of disclaiming another interest which one of the national newspapers attributed to me, predicting that I would give your

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Lordships the views of the Lord Lieutenants on this subject. I need hardly tell your Lordships that no such idea ever entered my mind, but I think I should disclaim it. Anything that I say is as an individual only. As a matter of fact, in this debate I feel it is important that we should not concentrate on special interests. This is not a subject on which we should strike a balance between special interests; it is a national subject, of vital importance to the future defence of the country, and I should hope that, if there is a division in the country, it will be between those who are interested in the defence of their country and those who are apathetic about it.
I do not take such a gloomy view as the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, took about to-day's debate. I hope that the result of this debate will be to bring the two sides of the argument, if I may so describe it, somewhat closer together. I hope that the Government will get perhaps two main impressions from this debate. The first, I feel sure, is that it is a great mistake to be stingy on information. Looking hack now, I think one can see that the Statement that was made in this House on July 29 was a rotten and had statement, both in its timing and in its content, and I think the whole argument has suffered from it since. So far as timing goes, it is obviously a bad thing to make a Statement like that just before the Summer Recess. But in this case it was worse, because if this Statement was not to be available fairly quickly, with an adequate explanation of the appreciation on which the decisions were based and of the implications to our defences for the future, then it should not have been made. If the Government say, as I believe they do, that they made it under pressure, that is what Ministers are for—to resist pressure—and if they have not got their case ready they should not put it forward.
Her Majesty's Government should realise, from the course of this debate, just what a lively interest in their strategic appreciations there is among many Members of this House, perhaps of some of us, speaking for myself, with no particular expertise. I would suggest to them that they will find that a similar interest exists in the country—if the country is told anything, which it has not been.
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It may begin to hear something now. It is high time that the country was told exactly what is being proposed and was given the chance to form its own opinion on the rights and wrongs of it. Do not let us forget that in the over-45s in this country there must be thousands and thousands of people who are only too familiar with the principles of war and the principles of defence and who are perfectly entitled to judge whether a Government's conclusions or appreciations are sensible or not. I think if that had been done at an earlier stage, we should have a clearer idea of what was going on.
It is very difficult in peace time to get the public to take an interest in defence—it always has been, and I suppose it always will be—but a real effort should be made to put this straight to the country, and not to wrap it up, as it was in the Statement of July 29, because, let us face it, the very wording, "Reorganisation of the Reserve Army", was at best a euphemism. I have heard it called very many worse things than that. But the plain fact is that anybody who knew about the subject could see at once that it involved the abolition of the Reserve Army, not merely the Territorial Army, coupled with a small increase in the Army Reserve for the Regular Army, which is quite a different thing and is largely a collection of individual reservists.
The second lesson I should like to think the Government have learned from this debate is that noble Lords in this House are not nearly as confident as the Government are in their powers of prophecy. It is all very well to say that it will not happen here; that it will not happen within fifteen or twenty years; but the plain fact is that when you get to that sort of period you cannot make certain forecasts. That is why, as the noble and gallant Field Marshal told us, it is always essential to have a reserve against the unforeseen; and that is what the present plans do not provide in any shape or form, Territorial or otherwise.
I think the real lesson that has come out of this is that there will be great difficulty in convincing the country that, in the present state of affairs, you can say with confidence that we shall never need home defence. But that is certainly a more arguable point. I can only

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say that in my career as an amateur soldier, such as it was, I seem to remember that in all defence problems you had a number of foreseen dangers against which you had to provide, and you never had enough resources to provide for them all. I also remember that the quickest way of being sure of being relegated to less exacting duties was to produce an answer which put all your goods in the shop window and did not keep in hand even a small reserve against the unexpected. In the past, our reserve against the unexpected has always been the Territorial Army. In that, perhaps we are not unique, but we are unique among many of our major allies, who have all had conscription.
It is perhaps interesting to consider why that should be. I would suggest that there are two main reasons why we have always had this Territorial voluntary system. The first is that we have a long tradition in this country of voluntary public service in every walk of life, not least, as noble Lords on Government Benches will agree, in the Labour and trade union movements. One aspect of that has always been that young men and women have been prepared to train themselves in peace for service to the country in war. The other main reason is, I am afraid, not quite such a creditable one, but a very understandable one, and it is that we have never liked the idea of compulsory military service in peace—that is, a full-time service. We are not, thank goodness!, a militaristic nation. Worse than that, of course, we hate paying for it. I would suggest that the result is that, in the Territorial Army, we have had our insurance against the unexpected on the cheap. Therefore, I do not think anyone has any right to turn round now and say that it is an expensive army, because it is not.
If noble Lords on the Government Benches are wrong in their appreciation, there is nothing more certain than that they will be introducing conscription in no time. That will cost money—very much more money than the Territorial Army would cost—and it will be unpopular. Let us not lose sight of the fact that, if you introduce conscription, if history is any guide to us it will be introduced at the last possible moment. You will then have to wait probably five,
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perhaps ten, years before you have any matured officers or N.C.O.s from your conscripts; and when you first introduce conscription the immediate result, as somebody has already said, is actually to reduce the size or the effectiveness of your Regular Army because it has to provide a training cadre for your conscripts. So if anybody feels doubtful whether this idea which has been put forward of abolishing the Reserve Army is sound, he should think what is going to be done in introducing conscription and what the effects of that might be.
That brings me back to the point of the Government's forecasts of future dangers, because it is not a matter of thinking about next year or the year after. Any decision that is taken about the Reserve Army now would take five, ten or fifteen years to put right again. Therefore it is that kind of distance we have to look ahead. If noble Lords in the Government think that they can do some soothsaying as far ahead as that, I can only say that I admire them very much.
Finally—because I do not want to keep the House too long—I would say a word about the Territorial Army itself. I do not think there is any point in making emotional appeals on this subject. This is a purely practical problem, and I am sure no Territorial would wish to continue serving in an Army which had no useful purpose. But the effectiveness of any Army is dependent not only on its state of training and on modern equipment but, of course, on its morale and its fighting spirit. Deficiences in training and equipment can be made good fairly easily and quickly, but the setting up of morale is a thing which takes a great many years to do. I doubt very much whether any possible alternative to the Territorial Army can give the nation an equally good insurance against the unexpected for an equally modest cost.
6.40 p.m.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I do not wish to compete too closely, or to compare myself too closely, with the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, who has just spoken, but I think that possibly I can beat him in length of service with the Territorial Army; I can no longer claim to be an honorary colonel.

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I would agree with him most heartily that this issue must not be put on an emotional basis of the past glories of the Territorial Army, even the glories in the two world wars. I will not go over all the arguments which have been put so ably by others, but I want to draw attention to one point in particular which I think has been omitted, and that is the tremendous value of the Territorial officer in time of emergency.
In both the world wars, at the time of emergency, the fact that we had officers who were acquainted with the organisation of the Armed Forces, and who understood the spirit of the Armed Forces and of the Army, meant that we could immediately transfer them into certain staff jobs, jobs from which the Regular Army officers could thereby be released to go and take command in the field. If we do away with the Territorial Army, if we change its nature, we shall not get the best brains of the civilian population made immediately available to the Army on the outbreak of war. In Scotland we have been taking a great deal of interest in this whole subject of the rundown of the Territorial Army during the past few months, and on this point I would quote a paragraph from one of a series of articles appearing in the Glasgow Herald. The last two articles were by a relatively young man with recent war experience. I quote:
"It is short-sighted and unreasonable to expect to recruit the cream of our youth to the T.A. if they are to be denied the ambition of one day commanding their unit. Regulars have their part to play as commanders of T.A. units but if there is no leavening of first-class volunteer commanders the T.A. will become a colourless branch office of the Regular Army, feeding it with a few recruits perhaps but without any esprit de corps of its own."
The implications of transferring the volunteer Territorial Army into the Reserve of the Regular Army are, as many of your Lordships have already said, far-reaching. It is, of course, ridiculous to consider that the 50,000 strength proposed for the Territorial Army means that there will be 50,000 reservists available for the Regular Army. It takes at least two years to train a recruit in the Territorial Army to any reasonable standard whatsoever, and the length of service of a large number—indeed perhaps of half—of all the recruits taken in averages only about two years. There-
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fore, in the Territorial Army we are turning over a large number of men, and it is quite ridiculous to think that we can get out of the Territorial Army more than 20,000, or perhaps 25,000, reservists able to reinforce the Regular Army. The cat was let out of the bag in a rather nice way by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, when he expected that the Regular Reserve, which now stands at 20,000, would in 1970 be of the order of 40,000, which means that it would then supply all that was needed for the Reserve of the Regular Army and in fact the Territorial Army as a civilian volunteer body would no longer exist.
In the year 1777 the War Office and the Government of the day refused the offer of many bodies, many peers, to raise troops for the Army. That was the year of Saratoga, a period about which the late George Bernard Shaw wrote rather cuttingly in regard to the Government and the War Office. The offers to raise troops were refused because there was no foreseeable emergency in the next ten years, and yet only a few years later regiments had to be raised and Governments changed; War Office policy was changed, crises occurred, and by the end of that century we had a whole variety of forces—militia, fencibles, volunteers, yeomanry—created to meet each recurring crisis, often with a different complexion to the Government.
But the most magnificent thing of all occurred in the year 1804, when the Permanent Additional Forces Act was passed and the Government were at their last stage of exasperation to try to raise some troops. They then offered a bounty of 12 guineas to induce men to enlist. I suppose 12 guineas then would be at least £100 by modern standards, but the whole thing was a flop because of the recurring calls on patriotism, a constant blowing hot and cold, and no consistent policy being maintained in regard to the primary defence of the country. If the ghost of William Pitt were hovering around us now, he would say, "This is where I came in".
In the Territorial Army as we have it now we have a piece of consistent machinery which is capable of adjustment and can be tuned up and modified as occasion demands and as dangers impend upon the country. I think it is a great pity that anything should be done to

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change its nature so radically as the proposals suggest. I think we are seeking economy at the expense of security, and I would re-echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, almost the first words which he spoke: Who is to know what is to happen in the next ten, fifteen, or twenty years?
6.50 p.m.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, I will be very brief. I have just returned from three months overseas, most of it in Australia, and in that country they have their equivalent of the Territorial Army called the C.M.F., Citizens' Military Forces, in which I have myself served. Just recently they also had a serious heart searching and they were going to change things; they were going to cut out the names of regiments, they were going to limit the size, and all that. Then the Minister for the Army, and of course the Government, thought again, and with considerable political courage decided that that was wrong and that they had much better build on what they had already than try to start again with any new gimmickry. I came here this afternoon purely with the hope and the prayer that perhaps the Government here would do the same as far as our Territorial Army was concerned.
By way of declaring my interest, may I say that, as I have just stated, I have had a commission in the Australian Territorial Army, I have had a commission in this country's Regular Army and I have commanded a Territorial Army battalion in this country. Therefore I cannot, for the life of me, say that I can approach any of these subjects without some sentiment. Noble Lords have said, right, left and centre, that this subject must not be treated with sentiment. On the other hand, sentiment has a lot to do with the whole of our lives, and especially when there is a voluntary traditional method of defence, which is the Territorial Army. I think that if you abolish the Territorial Army, which is what the plans in effect are doing, you will find it very hard to start or build up again without, as has been mentioned, compulsion. Man cannot live by bread alone, and I think there is a sentimental or traditional side to this matter which should not be ignored.
I remember the courses one has done at the Civil Defence Staff College and the
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various Civil Defence exercises one has been on in the Territorial Army, and I cannot see how, without terrific expense, any form of Civil Defence can carry on without the Territorial Army as we know it to-day. The next point is one which I also made on June 30 last, concerning these mobilisation exercises that one has from time to time. I cannot, for the life of me, see how, without again great expense and providing other facilities, you can carry out general mobilisation without the facilities and the other things that go with the Territorial Army as we have it to-day. The point has been mentioned of the traditional built-in dislike, mainly from Cromwellian times, of a standing Army, and if you are going to abolish the Territorial Army I think your connection between your country and the Regular Army is going to be severed, with the dangers that are inherent.
Lastly, in September I was shown around Los Angeles and, as your Lordships know, that was one of the last places where the Americans thought there would be anything like what happened. But what did they have to fall back on but their Territorial Army, the National Guard, to stop it from spreading? I think we should be extremely short-sighted if, just because at the moment we cannot foresee our various extremist bodies on either side of the political spectrum being in a position to create disturbances of this sort, we ignored the fact that something like that could happen in one of our big cities in, say, ten years' time. If you have no on-the-spot Territorial Army or equivalent reserve, then you are not looking after the home defence of this country as you should.
6.55 p.m.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, I venture to intervene in this debate as, after eleven years' service in the Regular Army, I took over in 1938 a company of the Queen's Westminsters which during the war became a battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps and is now incorporated in the Queen's Royal Rifles. At the outbreak of the last war we were in the 56th London Division and at first were stationed in London to supplement the civil power in case there was bombing. Later we were moved into the Kent area on the coastal defences, where we carried out many rôles during the Battle of Britain, and were eventually trained

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as a motor battalion of the Eighth Army Division before going overseas just before Alamein. It is just this rôle that could be a possible one for the Territorial Army should a war break out to-day.
Our Regular forces are stretched to a maximum, and there can be no doubt that should our conventional commitments be further extended a decision would have to be made to embody by proclamation the Territorial Army or to resort to conscription. That is not beyond the realms of possibility at some future date, and should this occasion arise and should the Government persist in this plan we shall be found wanting. Is this the moment to deal a death blow to the Territorial Army which, for many years, has been the first line reinforcement of the Regular Army?
Those of us who have served in the Territorial Army, both in peace and in war, can testify to the enthusiasm and efficiency of this force. It is evident that the younger members of our society, both in the country and in the towns, have come forward to join the Territorial Army, giving up their evenings, week-ends and holidays, not only because they believe that the training is essential for the defence of their country but also because they will be learning things which will be of great value to them in after life, not excluding the comradeship which is one of the great factors of the Territorial Army.
I understand, and again it is rumour, rumour, rumour, that the Queen's Royal Rifles would become one company, which would entail 300 young officers, N.C.O's and riflemen being suddenly disbanded. If we had one company, say, of about 140 men in one regiment, how are we going to get recruits? Surely they will not think it worth while to give up the time they have given up before, when they were on a battalion basis. Surely this will not be easy to bring about.
I come to another point which has not been made so far and is often forgotten: that the Territorial Army is a potential officer-producing organisation.
At the start of the last war we lost many of our N.C.O's and riflemen to the O.C.T.U's. I am convinced that their training in the ranks of the Territorial Army was of infinite value to their service afterwards as officers. If the disaster
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of nuclear war should ever overcome us, we should need a disciplined force with the mobility to deal with any situation which might arise. I am not so defeatist as to think that the whole of Britain will be wiped out at one blow, but I believe that it is essential that a disciplined force should be available in order to assist the civil power in rescue work and the restoration of communications and supplies; and I do not think we can leave that to any chance regiment which happens to be in the area for a short time. It is essential also for the morale of the population that this force should not only exist but be known to exist. It is the ideal work for the Territorial Army.
The Territorial Army has been invaluable in two world wars. It is invaluable to-day. It is a disastrous decision to deal with it in this way. I trust that, even at this late hour, Her Majesty's Government may reverse a decision which, to my mind, is endangering the defence of this country and, I am quite certain, is not the will of the people.
7.2 p.m.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, at this late hour almost everything has already been said on this subject, but because I feel so violently opposed to the Government's proposals for the reorganisation of the Reserve Army I feel I must say one or two things again. Before I do so, I, too, would thank my noble friend Lord Thurlow for giving us the opportunity to speak to-night, as I do not think that this is the wrong moment to do so. I think it is right that we should discuss these matters before the Government have finally issued their White Paper.
To my mind, the proposals which the Government have made are based on three totally false assumptions. The first false assumption is that these proposals will work. I do not think for one moment that they will work, because I do not believe that people will join this new type of Reserve Army, with the increased commitment which is required of it; and I do not believe that the country at large, the employers and so forth, will agree to allowing their key men to join this type of Reserve Army, where they may be expected, if called up, to lose their seniority or any prospects of it. I do not think that the £60 tax free bounty is going to be much of an

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inducement to such people. Nor do I think that volunteers are going to join this Reserve Army, because the type of unit which is proposed for the majority of the Reserve is administrative and logistical. There is far less glamour in this side of the Army than in any other side, although I would agree that it is vitally needed in the event of war. But if the country will not pay a wage comparable to what these people can get outside the Army, then why should we expect them to join the Reserve Army when they have not so far joined the Regular Army? I think that in this connection there is a tendency for the Regular Army to feel that they can get the technicians which they cannot recruit by falling back upon the Reserve Army to supply them; and I think that there is a tendency for the Regular Army to hope to get their people "on the cheap", which will not work.
The second false assumption is that the proposals will save £20 million. I have seen no estimate of where this saving is going to come from. I do not see the grounds on which the Government have based this figure. I would entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Leather-land, who spoke so eloquently and at length on the subject of saving money. In fact, the noble Lord spoke so eloquently in defence of the Territorial Army that I think he should be sitting on this side of the House. If the saving of £20 million were the sole objective of this reorganisation, I should feel there were so many other ways in which the money could be saved in the Defence Estimates. I cannot think that this is the real reason, or even a serious reason, why these proposals have been put forward.
The third and, I think, the falsest assumption of all is that there is no longer a home defence rôle for the Territorial Army. This is the main subject upon which the whole of the debate to-day seems to me to have crystallised. Almost every speaker has mentioned it, and almost every speaker has mentioned that he disagrees with the Government on this subject. I should like to ask the Government how they can possibly be so categorical as to state, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has to-day stated, that home defence, after a nuclear or
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any other war (I hope the noble Lord will correct me if I am misquoting him) is not a contingency that we should provide for. After being only a few months in office, the Government have stated this as a fact. I do not see how they can possibly justify this statement, and I should like to know on what possible grounds they could come down so strongly on that side, before even completing the Defence Review which we are continually being asked to wait for. It seems to me that this statement is rather like the situation created by someone who is writing a book, who starts off by writing Appendix A and then returns to write the rest of the book. Until the Defence Review is completed, how can it be possible for us possibly to say what defence rôle there will be for whom and when? In fact, I would go so far as to say that the statement of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, might perhaps be compared with the statement made by a distinguished, but nameless, Air Marshal, who, just before the R.101 disaster, said that there was no future for the heavier-than-air flying machine.
The Territorial Army has always been our insurance against the unforeseen. Even since your Lordships last debated this subject we have seen innumerable situations all over the world where the use of soldiers has been advocated and has been needed. In fact, we have even had advocates for the use of force in Rhodesia. But I do not know what force we can use if we are about to disband our forces. I believe that we should not become the only improvident nation which alone neglects to pay any insurance premium against the unknown.
I admit to being destructive in my criticism so far, but I am most impressed, as we all are, at the complete unanimity with which every speaker has agreed that some reorganisation, and a radical reorganisation, is needed to bring the Territorial Army up to date. We have come to a complete and entire agreement on that. Certainly I agree with it myself. I would even congratulate the Government, as other speakers have done, on grasping the nettle. We have heard quite a lot about grasping nettles to-day, but it is one thing to grasp the nettle and it is another to squash it and crush it once you have grasped it. Those who

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grasp too many nettles should not complain if they get stung in the process.
It is up to the opponents of this scheme to suggest constructive alternatives. This may be difficult in advance of the Defence Review, but the purpose of this debate is, I think, that we should put forward alternative ideas for the Government to consider. I think that the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, made some suggestions in the debate in this House in June of this year which were almost prophetic. He suggested that there should be a two-tier force. I will not quote him at length, because I am glad to say that he has repeated the suggestion this afternoon. The Government accepted proposals for the top tier which he suggested, in almost exactly the same way as he suggested them. In fact, I think his proposals were accepted with such accuracy that the similarity must be too great to be a mere coincidence.
The noble and gallant Viscount has again emphasised the need to organise the balance of the Territorial Army into the second tier, which has also been described and advocated by so many noble Lords this afternoon. I believe strongly that this is the basis on which we should find a solution to this problem. It seems to me that it would solve all the problems. It has already been mentioned in so many speeches that I need not detain your Lordships by going into it at any greater detail. I would just add that it is not at all dissimilar from the solution and the ideas which the Council of the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations put forward in July, though their suggestions seem to have been totally ignored by the Government.
I believe that the Government have proposals in mind to reorganise the Civil Defence Service. Can we not realise that neither the Territorial Army nor the Civil Defence Service can possibly work in isolation? Combined together they could provide us with the essential, basic home defence which everybody seems to think is required and which we must preserve at all possible costs. The amalgamation of the two Services might well save us much more than £20 million. We should then be left with a highly mobile volunteer force ready to assist the Government in any possible emergency.
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The force could be limited to 40,000 or 50,000 relatively unspecialised soldiers who have been trained in basic military discipline and various degrees of Civil Defence knowledge. It would be cheap to run, and certainly cheaply equipped, and could be based on the existing Territorial Army structure under the control of the Ministry of Defence. This force, as suggested by the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, would have to be additional to, and separate from, the Regular Army Reserve, whatever that might turn out to be. If we did create such a force, we should be using in the service of the country the great reservoir of good will and talent which the Government now propose to cast aside as unwanted. We should be keeping alive all the old loyalties and traditions which are so valued by the nation today, if not by the Labour Party.
7.14 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: My Lords, I must at the outset once again declare an interest, as I am a serving officer in the Territorial Army. I have the honour to command one of the many battalions whose services will no longer be required if the Government proposals for disbanding the Territorial Army are carried out. I had hoped to-day to hear the Governments case for dispensing with the country's home defence force. Having listened with great care to the arguments put forward by the noble Lord on behalf of the Government, I am left with the impression that the Government feel that the country is not worth defending. As the amount concerned is so very small, this attitude is ridiculous. I begin to wonder whether these proposals have been brought before us, before the White Paper is published or the Defence Review as a whole has been carried out, so that the Government have a "let out" for some of their overseas commitments by stating that as there is no home defence force they cannot honour those overseas commitments. Whether there is a defence force such as ours or not, many of these commitments remain, and if the Territorial Army does not do them, who does?
I should like briefly to turn to the proposals for the reorganisation. These proposals were not put in such a manner as to win friends and influence people—certainly not to influence people in the

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Government's favour. It might surprise your Lordships to know that the method the Ministry-of-no-Defence chose for informing its T.A. commanders of its proposals was by requesting those commanders to sit by their teleprinters between the hours of 3 and 4 p.m. on July 29. They then saw an announcement made by the Minister of Defence, or the Minister-of-no-Defence, Mr. Healey. At precisely 4 p.m. their chief clerks marched in and presented them with a bundle of envelopes, saying, "You may open these now, sir". One begins to wonder, slightly cynically, "Were these chief clerks fully paid-up Party members?".
As to the proposals, most of what I should like to say has been said already. I can only say it is going to be very difficult to implement them, and I say this with the best will in the world. We can get soldiers, but it will be very hard to get senior N.C.O.'s, and even harder to get officers—I mean on the terms so far proposed. One hopes that when the White Paper is forthcoming, they may well be made more acceptable.
I constantly hear comments as to the Territorial Army's state of readiness. I have taken great care to enquire into this, and I am informed on the best possible authority that a Territorial soldier is as well trained as any soldier leaving the Regular Army depot, and in many cases as well trained as a Regular Army battalion soldier—I refer not to soldiers serving in Germany, Borneo or Aden, but serving in some other part of the world. Therefore, the Territorial state of readiness cannot be so bad as is thought.
I should like to pose a few questions. When was the Regular Army Reserve last used? Was it in Korea? Was it in Suez? If and when it was used, how many were called and how many were found fit and able to serve? When was the Army Emergency Reserve last called and, when it was called, how many were called, and how many were found fit and able to serve? Lastly, I should like to ask three questions, and in regard to at least two of them could I please have a convincing answer, not a Parliamentary one?
LORD SHACKLETON: You will not get either now.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: I am sure not, but I should like to have one, if possible. The first is this. I have heard a rumour that the Government are thinking of accepting a suggestion somewhat similar to the one on the lines put forward by the noble and gallant Viscount. Could we have some indication whether this is so?
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, would the noble Marquess mind repeating the question? I will try to answer it when I wind up, but I am afraid I did not hear it.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: I have heard a rumour that the Government are thinking of accepting a proposal very similar to that made by the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein: that is to say, for a two-tier system. My second question is: do you really wish the T.A. to continue at present? The third is: do you really wish the proposed reorganisation to work? If I can have an answer to those questions, I shall be grateful.
7.18 p.m.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, we have had a lengthy debate, so I do not propose to speak for long. The debate started with noble and gallant Field Marshals, and we are now down to Colonels. In this connection, I must declare an interest, because I think that I first put on Territorial Army uniform about 55 years ago. The association—though not the same suit—lasted for about 35 years, and I then took command of a Regular regiment. So I have had a certain amount of experience of this matter, quite apart from being a member of a Territorial association.
There appears to be absolute unanimity on the fact that the present organisation of the Territorial Army as a fighting force of ten divisions is unsuitable. That I would not contest in the least. I remember that between the wars when I was commanding a regiment, there was very little training done above regimental level which was really useful. I cannot help thinking that the future Territorial Army, if it consisted of a few hundred units which were not expected to get beyond regimental or battalion training, would serve an extremely useful purpose

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from every point of view. The point has often been emphasised that the Territorial Army not only is a reservoir for the Regular Army, but can also serve as a reservoir for the Army Reserves. For that purpose something of the sort will be very much needed in the future. I cannot visualise these relatively small reserves being manned at all on the proposals put forward by the Government.
I feel that the Government have been badly advised over this, and that quite insufficient weight has been lent to morale and esprit de corps. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, knows exactly what esprit de corps means, and in the last Defence debate he gave us a most moving story. I think his Warwickshire cap badge means a great deal more to him than most things, following his Colonel, the noble and gallant Viscount, who occasionally indulged in the unsoldierly habit of wearing two cap badges. The Government should realise that esprit de corps goes for an enormous amount, especially in these days, and the esprit de corps of the Territorial Army would he completely destroyed. I am talking not only of the regimental spirit, but of the spirit of the country. There was an extremely good article in the Daily Telegraph this morning, pointing out that the abolition of the Territorial Army would demilitarise the whole nation. Soldiers would not be seen in the country, and the spirit of national defence and everything else would perish.
I apologise for an anecdote, but between the wars, when I was commanding a regiment, I had about 20 drill halls, which were a great nuisance and militated against efficiency. I was making arrangements to do away with one or two of them, at the same time making arrangements for the training of the men elsewhere, when the local authorities came to me and said, "We hear that you are going to do away with our drill hall. You cannot do that". I asked, "Why?" and they told me, in words which have not been repeated to-day, rather to my surprise, "The Territorial Army is the most successful youth club in this country." For that reason, if for no other, it should be worth preserving. These local authorities said to me: "You cannot do away with our drill hall. It is the mainstay of the whole place." I
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think I only had about ten men training there, but, even so, the authorities said it was the mainstay of the whole place. One of them said that he had gone from there to the Boer War, his son had gone from there to the First War, and his daughter's wedding reception had been held there. I was bound to relent, and I had to make other arrangements. Quite obviously, that Territorial drill hall was the life and soul of the place—not a very big place, I admit. But what happened in one place is happening, in greater or lesser degree, all through the country; and not all the local authorities are so vocal, or the commanding officers perhaps, so accessible as in the case I have mentioned.
I implore the Government to think again before killing the Territorial Army. There is this proposal to do away with the Territorial Army because there is nothing very obvious for it to do at the moment. The noble and gallant Viscount produced a most telling saying about the fourth alternative which always turns up, something which had not been foreseen; and in many cases this has already happened to the Territorial Army. The improvidence of doing away with it because there is nothing immediate for it to do, strikes me like the improvidence of one of the Surrealist artists in Paris, who happened to be painting a blonde and therefore threw all his dark coloured paints into the Seine. No amount of computers and Kaldors can produce the answer to what esprit de corps is worth, and I implore the Government to think again, because the unexpected must turn up and the Territorial Army would be the only means of meeting it.
7.25 p.m.
LORD HARDING OF PETHERTON: My Lords, I must crave your Lordships' indulgence for intervening in this debate because, thinking that I should not be able to get here in time, I did not put my name down to speak. Consequently, I did not hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, at the beginning of the debate. I have already declared my personal interest in the Territorial Army in a letter which was published yesterday in The Times, because I started my military career in a unit of the Territorial Army shortly before the First

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World War. So I have a close personal interest, though not, I hope, to the extent of going in for special pleading on behalf of the Territorial Army.
As one who has had the responsibility for a home command, I do most sincerely and completely endorse all that has been said in your Lordships' House this afternoon about the important rôle which the Territorial Army has to play in home defence; and it is, I submit, a rôle that cannot be properly and adequately fulfilled in any other way. As has already been said this afternoon, there is no need for the home defence element of the Territorial Army in the future to have heavy equipment, to be organised in large and cumbersome formations. What I believe is required is lightly equipped, highly mobile forces, which are locally trusted and have knowledge of local conditions. These are requirements which can adequately and fully be met by a reorganised Territorial Army on a light and highly mobile basis.
I have asked the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government whether he would deal with another question that I should like to put; that is, whether serious consideration has been given to the possibility of letting the Territorial Army take over responsibility for certain of the Civil Defence functions, such as the wardens' service, the auxiliary fire service and the mobile police columns. It seems to me that in that direction there lies scope for some integration between what I may call the home defence element of the Territorial Army—which I very much hope the Government will reconsider, and decide to retain—and the existing Civil Defence organisation. If that possibility has not been considered, will the Government consider it and see whether there is not scope for savings and greater efficiency in that direction? It may be a means of making up the shortage which they would otherwise have from destroying—and I do not think that is too strong a word to use—the Territorial Army as it exists to-day, certainly from the point of view of home defence.
These are matters of very great importance. I know that they fall to be considered finally in the context of the Government's general Defence Review. But I would strongly urge, as one who has had, first of all, service in the Territorial
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Army, then experience of home command organisations and, finally, responsibility for the general efficiency of the Army and its part in our overall defence organisation, that the Government should give very serious reconsideration to retaining sufficient of the Territorial Army to meet the home defence requirement; to reorganising it on a new light, highly mobile basis, and to looking into the question of the economies that could result from some integration of the home defence element of a reorganised Territorial Army and the existing Civil Defence organisation.
7.30 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, this has been a long debate—not quite as long as I expected, may I say; and I should like to thank the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, for his timely intervention—but I believe, and I think your Lordships believe, that it has been a useful debate. It has been useful because of the knowledge deployed by a long list of speakers. They all possess a far greater knowledge of the Army Reserve Forces and the Territorial Army than I can possibly command: not least my noble friend Lord Leigh—that outstanding yeoman whose maiden speech we were all so very glad to listen to earlier this afternoon.
I think also that this debate has been useful because of its timing. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bourne, said that it was perhaps a debate rather in the air, since the White Paper was not yet with us. That, of course, is so. But I myself believe that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, really meant it when he said that the Government would give very careful consideration indeed to what was said in your Lordships' House this afternoon and this evening. I am sure that those words of his were more than a polite and platonic expression of obeisance to your Lordships' House; and, if so—and I am sure it is the case—I would agree with the many noble Lords who have said in the course of this afternoon's discussion that this debate has been really well worth while.
My Lords, I had thought I was going to speak a great deal earlier in the discussion this afternoon, and I must apologise for not having been listening to all the speeches; but I think that this

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debate has gained from being non-political, and I was very glad that that was underlined by the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland. It seemed to me, if I may say so, that he talked extremely good sense, but one always thinks that people talk good sense when one finds oneself agreeing with what they say.
In summing up this debate from this side, the points which I should like to make are comparatively simple and, because of the hour, I will make them as briefly as possible. Our first worry here relates to the timing of the Government's proposals and to their relationship to the Government's Defence Review. It was a point which was made very forcibly earlier this afternoon by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bourne. The Government tell us that they are reviewing in depth our Defence commitments and our ability to discharge those commitments. I do not think that any of us have any quarrel with that at all, although we perhaps have some quarrel with the tortoise-like progress which they are making. But presumably they are not ready with that Defence Review, or its fruits, because they are still undecided about those commitments; or, if they are decided about the commitments, because they are still not quite certain how best to discharge them. This means, presumably, that they must still be undecided about the size, the shape and the disposition of our Regular Forces.
If this is so now, in late November, as I assume it must be, I cannot for the life of me see how the right honourable gentleman the Secretary of State for Defence was in a position to announce, in late July, his broad proposals for the Reserve Forces. Surely, in logic, decisions about the size and the shape of our Reserve Forces must follow, not precede, decisions on our commitments, on the sort of wars we may have to fight and on the sort of Regular Forces which we feel we need to fight those wars.
I must tell noble Lords opposite, as several other speakers earlier to-day have also told them, that I am genuinely puzzled by the way in which they have gone about this. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, when he replies, will be able to explain the logic behind this seemingly illogical procedure. If not,
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I think that some of us will be inclined to conclude that the proposals so far made by the Government for our Army Reserve Forces are not really related to any coherent strategic requirement, but that they have been governed in the most part by Mr. Healey's efforts to contain Defence expenditure within a ceiling imposed upon him by his colleagues.
Although it may be rather illogical to discuss the roles of our Reserve Forces, as we have been doing this evening, in advance of this Defence Review, I feel that I must to some extent follow the Government down this rather illogical path, and I should like to touch on one or two of the roles which have been discussed in our debate—first, Home Defence. In another place on July 29 the Secretary of State for Defence said—and I quote his words from column 694 of Hansard:
"It is no longer realistic to think in terms of the Territorial Army as a force for the defence of the United Kingdom itself…".
Later, he went on to say—and I again quote his words, from column 700:
"We do not believe that it is likely that we shall have to meet a major land invasion of these islands by conventional forces or that this is a contingency which it is right for us to spend the taxpayers' money on preparing for."
With the second of Mr. Healey's points—the unlikelihood of a major land invasion of these islands by conventional forces—I am inclined to agree. But this does not mean that we necessarily accept his first point—that is, the entire abolition of the Territorial Army's responsibility for home defence. I am inclined to agree with the Government that deliberate Soviet aggression in Europe is, in present circumstances, in the highest degree unlikely. I also agree with them—and I quote the words of the White Paper—that
"there is always a risk of war arising out of misunderstanding or miscalculation".
Above all, I agree with what my noble and gallant friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein has said—and he repeated these words to-day—that
"in war only one thing is certain, and that is that everything is uncertain".
That being so, my Lords—and this is the question I would wish to put to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont—in the very unlikely event of war in Europe—even limited, non-nuclear war—can we assume

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that these islands will be immune? In those circumstances, should we be able to insulate ourselves from the repercussions of war, or a state of extreme tension, in Europe? I grant that in those circumstances we could probably rule out a major invasion by conventional forces, as Mr. Healey himself has ruled it out. But can we rule out the possibility of diversionary and sabotage attacks, perhaps in a period of very high tension? And were we faced with this sort of thing, if we had to grapple with it, who would guard the key points in these islands: our power stations, our major public utilities, our communications centres, the main bridges—even the seat of Government itself? Do the Government really believe that this can be left entirely, say, to the police or to such Regular Forces as we might have in these islands at that time? I do not think we have had a really convincing answer to that question this afternoon.
Then, of course, there are contingencies such as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bourne, referred to: for example, a possible airborne attack on these islands. I would grant that this again is in the highest degree unlikely. But can we rule it out? Can we rule out something which I personally feel to be perhaps more probable—diversionary airborne attacks, in small packets, for sabotage and other reasons? Can we entirely rule out such a possibility? I should be glad to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, may have to tell us about this.
Secondly, my Lords, and closely linked, there is the possible rôle of Civil Defence. In speaking of this on July 29 Mr. Healey (and again I quote his words) said:
"Moreover, if it came about"—
that is, nuclear attack on this country,—
"conditions of unimaginable horror would supervene, and it is entirely speculative whether the Territorial Army would be of great value in such a situation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Commons) Vol. 717 (No. 164), col. 698; 29/7/65.]
Here again we are in considerable difficulty in discussing this matter, since we know so very little about the Government's basic thinking on it. We were told in July that Parliament would be informed "in the near future" of the Home Secretary's proposals about Civil Defence. We were told this afternoon that we should
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be informed "in due course". The fact remains that we have not yet been informed; and it is difficult to judge the validity of the Government's proposals, so far as the Territorial Army and Civil Defence are concerned, save against the background of their basic thinking in this respect. At present we are unable to do so.
Apart from that, I come to a point which I feel to be of real substance, and to which many noble Lords have referred in our discussion to-day. When I was, for a shortish time, a Minister of State at the Home Office I had certain very definite responsibilities in this field of Civil Defence. I do not for one moment dispute Mr. Healey's statement that following a nuclear attack on these islands we should be faced with conditions of "unimaginable horror". I concede that only too readily. But it was certainly the view of the Government's advisers then, only two years or so ago (and I do not wish to shelter behind their views because I agree with them), that millions of our fellow countrymen would in all probability survive a nuclear attack, and would perforce have to grapple with those conditions of "unimaginable horror".
It was certainly my belief then—and every plan that I saw and every exercise that I attended reinforced that belief—that in those conditions of unimaginable horror our ability to recreate any form of civilised life in these islands, our ability to pull ourselves up from that almost bottomless pit, would turn largely on the reaction of a comparatively small nucleus of men and women controlling a residue of disciplined and organised forces. That was certainly the strong impression that I retained from that experience at the Home Office.
I do not belittle for one moment the part that the police, the fire services and the Civil Defence—and indeed such Regular Forces as we might have in these islands—would play in all this. Yet, again, every plan that I saw, every exercise that I attended, emphasised that an absolutely crucial role would devolve on the Territorial Army, with its transport and all the things which the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, mentioned; its indispenable communication network, and, above all, its structure of organised discipline based on territorial loyalties.

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find it very hard to see how this role, which only two years ago was thought to be so indispensable, should now be judged to be dispensable. It is for that reason that I very much hope the Government will study what has been said in this House this afternoon and this evening, and, above all, perhaps, on this particular point, because I feel that a very strong case has been made out for what I think has been called the second or third tier of the Territorial Army functions.
My Lords, time is getting on, so I will put only a couple of brief questions to the Government. The first relates to the commitment accepted by the Government to reinforce the British Army of the Rhine in a period of emergency. Last June my noble and gallant friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein said that we should probably have to double the Rhine Army, and that in those circumstances another 50,000 men were needed. I do not think that this is an area in which we wish to play the numbers game, because there are security factors involved; but I suspect that that figure is a little on the high side. In any event, the total Reserve Forces proposed by the Government come to only 50,000. How, therefore, do we propose to honour this NATO commitment? Our Reserve Forces might be deployed elsewhere at that time; some might be going through a period of initial training. It seems to me that the margin here must be very thin indeed. I do not wish to press this point unduly, but I feel that it might be helpful if the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, could say something about this aspect of the matter, and also tell us to what extent it has been discussed with our NATO Allies.
There are many other things that I should like to say; but I hesitate to do so because so much has already been said—and said by people with an intimate knowledge of our Territorial Army which I do not possess. But I should like, for a moment, to revert to the question of recruitment. I think that noble Lords opposite have always accepted the very close connection between our small professional or Regular Army and our Reserve Forces. It has, as I see it, two facets: the Territorial Army can do a great deal to help recruitment to the Regular Army; and the smaller our
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Regular Army is, the greater is our need for adequate Reserve Forces.
Now, as I understand it, recruitment for the Army is not going particularly well at the present time. It is not altogether surprising that this should be the case, given the uncertainty created by the Government over the defence field. But in any event we were told by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, on April 7, that it was hoped to reach the target of 181,000 officers and men by April, 1966. Only three months later, in June, the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, told us that the hope now is that the ceiling will be reached by the second half of 1966—a hope somewhat deferred. To when, my Lords, must hope be now deferred? And are not the Government, by their handling of the issue, by drying up, as it were, the springs of the Territorial and voluntary effort, contributing to that deferment of hope? I feel that this is an aspect of the matter to which the Government should give very serious attention: the help which the Territorial Army, as at present organised, could give to Regular Army recruitment, and what could be the result if the Government's present proposals go through.
My Lords, in conclusion, I should like to make one thing very clear, speaking from this Bench. On this side of the House we do not in any way challenge the determination of the Government to pass the Army Reserve under review. We are not wedded to the status quo, by any means. I have always found our present organisation, the nine different types of reserves, of almost Byzantine complexity, and I feel that we could do with some simplification in this sphere. The Proclamation liability may well need review, and so indeed may the size, the shape, and the equipment of the Reserves. I would readily grant all that. We do not challenge that, my Lords. What we do challenge is the way in which the Government have gone about this process and, so far as one can discern them, some of the assumptions on which they appear to be proceeding, particularly, if I may say so, the rather dangerous assumption that no insurance policy seems to be required for home defence, and precious little, it would appear, for Civil Defence. I may be overstating it but that is the impression that

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I have received from the discussion to-day.
Nearly two years ago I remember your Lordships' House discussing a short Bill entitled the Navy, Army and Air Force Reserve Bill. In winding up for the then Opposition the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said,
"I would make a plea to the noble Earl"—
he was referring to me—
"that he will do his utmost, and that the Government will do their utmost, to elevate all these Reserve Forces to a greater measure of responsibility and importance in the eyes of the country." [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 255, col. 379; 10/2/64.]
My Lords, I should like to return that plea to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. I trust that he and his colleagues will do their utmost, and that the Government will do their utmost, to elevate the Army Reserve forces to a greater measure of responsibility and importance in the eyes of the country. That is my hope, and I trust that it is not a vain one. I have been encouraged by soma things which have been said from the Benches opposite by the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, and by some things said by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. That is my hope. My fear is that the Government's present proposals, unless they are modified, may well have a precisely opposite effect.
7.55 p.m.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, one or two noble Lords opposite seem, from things which have been said this afternoon, to be addicted to the conspiracy theory of Government and history. I hope that they will see nothing sinister in the fact that the Minister of State responsible for disarmament is replying to a debate on the reorganisation of the Territorial Army. I can assure noble Lords opposite that these proposals are not measures of disarmament but are indeed for something which the Government believe to be very real and overdue, the reorganisation of our Reserve forces.
As so many noble Lords have to-day declared an interest in this debate, perhaps I should declare mine. As my noble friend Lord Shackleton said earlier, I began my military career, such as it was, as a Territorial soldier, and no one
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has a greater affection, respect and admiration for the Territorial Army and its history and achievements than I have. I should like to say that in the short time in which I have been in your Lordships' House I have never heard a debate which has been ill-informed or ill-directed or ill-tempered, and to-day's debate has been typical of all the debates I have heard before. It has been extremely valuable, extremely well-informed, and contributed to by noble Lords who have a far greater right to speak about, and for, the Territorial Army than I have. I shall not, obviously, single out any noble Lords—it would be an invidious thing to do—but I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, for initiating this debate, and I think it would be wrong of me to let this occasion go by without remarking on the usual pungent and brief contribution from the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Montgomery of Alamein.
It is a great privilege to reply to this debate. Everyone seems to agree—I thought it significant—that changes are needed. Indeed the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, said that they ought to have come ten years ago, and on that, at least, I entirely agree with him. I think that they should have come a long time ago and that they are long overdue. I hope, as several noble Lords have said, that we can approach this whole matter in a spirit of calmness and remove from it as much emotion as possible. Of course it is an emotional matter. It affects the traditions, livelihoods, feelings and families of thousands of people in this country. But I believe that in your Lordships' House we have to iron out as much of this emotion as we can. We are dealing here with some very cold facts, as I hope to show in a moment.
The first thing I should like to say is that I believe that in a good many speeches to-day there has been, I think involuntarily, a major fallacy. Many times I have heard used the words, "destroying the Territorial Army", "throwing away the Territorial Army". I am not going here to anticipate the terms of the White Paper which will be published shortly, but I should like to make it clear that the Government are not

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destroying anything. They are reorganising our Reserve Forces on a logical, functional and objective basis. Someone said, I believe that it was a noble Lord opposite, that nobody likes change—I think that it must have been said by a noble Lord opposite. It is a proposition with which I cannot agree. I certainly like change and when it is necessary and right, my Lords, I welcome it.
Before I go on to say why I believe that change is necessary here, and that the lines on which we propose to construct this change are right, I should like to deal with one or two specific points which have been made in the debate. The first is the question of consultation. Here I should like to remonstrate mildly with the noble Earl, Lord Cromartie. I was surprised at some of the comments that he made on the motives and qualities of some of the professional officers who have advised on this reorganisation. May I say that, to my knowledge, many of these advisers are people to whom the Territorial Army means a very great deal—as much as it means to any of us in this House? May I say that it is to my certain knowledge that two of the very senior and distinguished officers in the Army Department who have been particularly connected with this reorganisation and the proposals for it have an admiration of, an affection for and an affinity to, the Territorial Army that are second to none? I hope that the noble Earl and all noble Lords will be assured that those officers who have advised upon these proposals have advised with the best possible motives. There has been nothing sinister about this at all. They have hated this idea, some of them, as much as noble Lords appear to hate it, but they have simply done their duty and have advised as they have thought fit to advise, with the best motives.
In passing, may I make a less serious comment on the noble Earl's speech? I think that he demonstrated the dancer of too narrow a view of tradition. He mentioned some section of nameless Teutonic people, who have tried to take away the names of Territorial Regiments and replace them with numbers.
THE EARL OF CROMARTIE: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord will admit that a short time ago there was a body of opinion among certain senior officers which wanted to change all the
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names of these regiments and to number them. Therefore, I think I was quite justified in making that remark. I cannot think of anything more un-British.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, this is exactly the point I was about to make. The noble Earl will perhaps remember that it was only recently that the regiments of the British Army got names instead of numbers. This, I believe, is the danger of a too narrow view of tradition. If I may give a personal reference, in my own regiment, the South Wales Borderers, we always refer to ourselves as the Twenty-fourth Foot. We have no objection to being referred to by number. However, this is merely a light, passing remark.
Noble Lords have said that the Statement made before the Summer Recess should not have been made unless the Government were prepared to follow it up immediately with further details of the proposed changes. I am sure that your Lordships will recall that the right honourable gentleman who at that time spoke for the Opposition in the other place on defence matters, especially asked that Parliament should be informed first of the Government's intentions regarding these questions. This was the proper course and the Government followed it.
On the matter of consultation, I must repeat, as my noble friend Lord Shackleton said earlier this afternoon, that in spite of one or two suggestions that have been made to the contrary during this debate, there has been the fullest consultation with the Territorial Army. The Territorial Army Council have responded to our offer to discuss with them the detailed implementation of the Government's proposals, and they have had every opportunity to put their views before us. There has been extensive consultation over the past months between the Territorial Army Council and the Ministry of Defence. I can say from my personal knowledge that for years past now there has been the most constant interchange of ideas between the Army Department and not only the Territorial Army as a whole, but also individual officers of the Territorial Army at all levels. I can assure your Lordships of this from my own personal experience.
May I now go on to the vexed question of why the Government did not wait until

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the Defence Review was finished before announcing plans for the Reserve Army? This has been mentioned several times in this most interesting debate. The point really is that the key decision of policy that brought about this reorganisation of the Territorial Army was that the Territorial Army would no longer be needed for home defence. There may be argument about this—and perhaps I could come on to that later—but this decision was taken independently of the main Defence Review. Once it was made, the way was then open to reorganise the Territorial Army, and because a reorganisation of this sort was bound to take time, and because so many people would be closely affected by it, the Government were extremely unwilling to leave this decision on ice just for the sake of the tidy solution of bringing the whole Defence Review together, including the reserve force.
In any case, the reorganisation of the Army Reserve was already widely felt to be long overdue and once the rôle of the Territorial Army in home defence had been settled there really was no reason or excuse for holding this up. I think that it is wrong to suggest that it was putting the cart before the horse to fix the rôle and organisation of the reserves before confirming those of the Regular Army. The new plan meets the future operational requirements for the Reserve Army as we now see them. Certainly, as has been brought out over and over again to-day, we cannot rule out the possibility that these operational requirements may be modified by later developments in the current Defence Review, and it might be that these modifications will lead to some change in the shape and size of the Reserve Force, but I ought to stress that this is only a remote and long-term possibility. I do not believe that it will have much practical effect on the proposals in the near future. Certainly it is not a possibility that would have justified the Government in putting off a decision or announcement about the future of the Territorial Army.
Let me now deal with the question of Territorial tradition. This is a very delicate subject. My noble friend Lord Leatherland, in a most interesting contribution to our debate, spoke of the feudal image that some people have of the
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Territorial Army. May I say that the Government value extremely the territorial tradition and want it to continue. Of course, I think that one must say plainly that we cannot allow traditions, however hallowed and precious they may be, for their own sake, to take priority and precedence over the construction of an efficient defence establishment. We have recognised the value of these traditions in planning the organisation of the new reserve. Three-quarters of it will continue to have territorial affiliations—that is to say, their units will have their own local centres and their recruits will largely be local people. We hope that the territorial flavour will not disappear. But we could not go any further than this without keeping on a force larger than the operational need would justify. I believe that that is the situation we have at the moment. The Territorial Army is much larger than operational needs require.
I do not believe that these proposals of ours mean that there is an end of the Territorial Army or of opportunities for the volunteer spirit to express itself. These will continue, although it must be admitted that their scale will be reduced so far as territorial military organisation is concerned. But I do not believe that anybody in your Lordships' House would seriously suggest that the Defence Budget ought to sustain, just to provide opportunities for this excellent and admirable spirit of volunteer service, a larger military force than is justified by the operational requirement.
May I now turn to the vexed question of the £20 million saving on the Territorial Army, which has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords, who have suggested that the Government are throwing away—this was the expression used—most of the present Territorial Army for the sake of saving a mere £20 million a year, or rather less than 1 per cent. of the total Defence Budget. The Government do not accept this. In the first place, this reorganisation of the Reserve Army is justified and, I repeat, overdue in the interests of greater efficiency. I believe that it will mean a more streamlined and effective means of reinforcing the Regular Army than what we have now, which is what we really need. In any case, I believe that an annual saving of about £20 million,

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which we expect to achieve by 1969, is considerable by any standards.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: My Lords, I hesitate to butt in, but how much does the noble Lord think the annual rise in gross output will rise during the same period?
LORD CHALFONT: As I understand the noble Marquess, he is asking what would be the rise in the gross national product over that period.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: Yes.
LORD CHALFONT: I think, if I may say so, that to go into the details of the National Plan would be slightly irrelevant. Of course the gross national product will rise. So will the cost of Defence services rise pari passu with the gross national product. My point is that the £20 million a year in real money is, by any standards, a considerable sum.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: I do not wish to divert the noble Lord from the subject, but I heard yesterday that the annual expenditure on prescription charges had increased by £13 million. Is it not better to defend ourselves?
LORD CHALFONT: I really cannot at this late hour follow the noble Marquess through these interesting but recondite economic considerations.
I think there has been a tendency this afternoon on the part of some noble Lords opposite to dismiss a sum of the order of £20 million a year as inconsiderable. I simply cannot accept this. The present Government are determined to contain this sort of expenditure. In terms of value for money, I believe that the contrast between the present system for Reserves and the reorganised Reserves will be even greater, because, as I said earlier in my speech, in the past I do not believe that adequate provision has been made for the equipment and training of the Territorial Army as it is now organised. I think that no one who has taken note of earlier debates on the Territorial Army, both in your Lordships' House and in another place, could doubt the strength of feeling on this point. I must say that Her Majesty's Government now intend that the new Reserve Force shall be suitably equipped and fully
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trained for the tasks which it might be called upon to perform.
I now come to the question of the "Ever Readies", to which the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, drew attention in his admirable opening speech. The Government in their proposals fully recognise the importance of these reservists. It may be interesting to your Lordships to recall that the first call-out of the "Ever Ready" reservists took place this spring, when 176 of them were sent to reinforce the Army overseas. I feel that this is a suitable opportunity to pay a tribute to the way in which these volunteers, coming straight from civilian life, many of them to the arduous climate of Aden, carried out their tasks and made a valuable, and in many cases unforgettable, contribution to the effectiveness of the units which they joined. This successful call-out of "Ever Ready" reservists—the first since our predecessors launched the scheme nearly four years ago—points to a continuing need for volunteers of this sort as a means of relieving the strain and tension on the Regular Army, which will otherwise find itself overstretched on occasions by unforeseen commitments, of which we have heard a great deal to-day, of a temporary nature. We are satisfied that the Volunteer Reserve Force which we propose will have a broad enough base to enable us to raise a satisfactory number of "Ever Ready" reservists from it. I cannot go into more detail now, in advance of the White Paper, but I can assure the noble Lord that we shall be able to raise the number of "Ever Readies" needed on the basis of the Reserve Forces that we have planned.
The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe (by the way, perhaps I should congratulate the noble Earl on his dramatic and timely arrival this evening: it is not the first time that the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Harding of Petherton, has saved the day) asked whether we should be able to meet our NATO commitment effectively. I believe that this new plan will enable us to meet our NATO commitment much more effectively than we can under the present organisation. This commitment, as the noble Earl will well know, is to provide logistic backing in the Rhine Army in war time for the ground forces which we have assigned to NATO. Taken as a whole, the present Territorial

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Army units which would be needed as NATO reinforcements are at a strength well below 60 per cent. of their establishment, but we expect to recruit units of the new Reserve to a strength much above this. So we should not need to rely to the extent which we now do on making up numbers with other trained reservists in the event of call-out. Moreover, in relation to the new order of battle, there will be an increasing number of Regular reservists available to reinforce a smaller number of volunteer Reserve units.
There is one matter that has been brought up many times this afternoon, and I think it is an important and a valid point. The point is: will the removal of Territorial Army units from various places around the country affect Regular recruiting? This is something of which naturally the Government are extremely seized and which they are examining closely. But I think, if I may say so without anticipating the results of that examination, there are three general points that I should make. The first, which connects with something I have said before, is that we really could not justify keeping in existence, to help the Regular recruiting, units for which there will be no operational requirement. This is a simple, cold fact of life. Secondly—I think there may be a slight fallacy at work in some people's minds here—although a number of Regular recruits have seen previous service in the Territorial Army, it does not follow that if there had not been a Territorial Army unit in their area they would not therefore have joined the Regular Army. I think we should be careful not to place too much emphasis on this aspect of recruiting.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: My Lords, I am sorry to intervene again, but as a commander of a Territorial Army unit, may I say that at least thirty soldiers pass through us each year.
LORD CHALFONT: The point I was making was that they might have joined the Army, anyway, if they had not had the good fortune to pass through the noble Marquess's unit.
Thirdly, I think we should consider, in all seriousness—I am not making this as
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a debating point—whether the image of the modern Army given by Territorial soldiers wearing out-of-date battledress and using obsolescent equipment, carried about in many cases in old and broken down vehicles, has done as much for the Army recruiting figures as some noble Lords would have us believe. The new volunteers proposed, on the other hand, will in due course be receiving the same type of combat clothing as the Regular Forces, and parade dress, as well as better equipment. This, as I am sure many noble Lords will appreciate, will be one of the advantages of having a smaller force. We shall be able to equip it and clothe it that much better. I believe that it will improve the image of the Volunteer Reserve Army with the public.
The Army Cadet Force was mentioned particularly by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and the noble Earl, Lord Courtown. We appreciate that the reorganisation of the Reserves is going to affect the Army Cadet Force, which relies at present on a good deal of help from the Territorial Army. Again, I can only say that we shall he looking carefully at this implication of the reorganised Reserve Forces; and although, again, it would not really be justifiable to maintain, just to help A.C.F. detachments, units that are not operationally needed, we shall certainly need to make suitable arrangements to support the Army Cadet Force in future. I cannot go into more detail about this to-day, because it cannot be taken very far until the deployment of the units of the new Volunteer Reserve has been settled, but it is likely to mean an examination on a very broad basis of the whole Cadet Force's organisation, and the resources needed to take it. I am sure that this examination will prove to be very valuable. I would say here that neither the school contingents nor the O.T.C.s, which, as your Lordships will know, are now confined to universities, will be directly concerned by any reorganisation of the Territorial Army, because they do not rely on it to a very great extent for training and administration.
The noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, drew attention to the important question of the Women's Royal Army Corps and the new Reserve. Again, since the detailed location of units of the new Reserve is not yet settled, the only answer I can give at this point must be in general terms.

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In the new Reserve Force there will be no operational requirement for W.R.A.C. units as such, but we shall be arranging opportunities for W.R.A.C. volunteer reservists to join certain signal units in the new Reserve. I cannot give any more details at the present stage, nor can I say precisely how Scotland may be affected in this. But the noble Lord may be sure that we do not dissent in principle from his view that provision for some form of W.R.A.C. element in a volunteer reserve force represents a valuable bonus for recruiting, and we shall certainly do what we can to preserve it.
There are two other points I should like to mention which have come up in this afternoon's debate. One is the question of redundancy in the Regular Army as a result of the reorganisation of the Reserve forces. It is true that, as a result of this reorganisation, there will be redundancy in certain ranks of the Regular Army, and, as we have said before, those individuals whose careers have to be prematurely ended will be given fair compensation. This does not, however, as was suggested this afternoon, necessarily mean that the Regular Army's total manpower ceiling will be reduced. The size of the Regular Army is something which will be decided separately as a result of the current Defence Review as a whole. The £20 million saving to which we have referred does not, therefore, allow for any saving on account of the reduction of the Regular Army's own ceiling corresponding to the reduction in the permanent staff of the Territorial Army. So there is no double accounting going on here.
The final detailed point with which I should like to deal is one of percentages of establishment. I think there was perhaps some misunderstanding of what was said by my noble friend Lord Shackleton. What he said was that the Territorial Army was recruited to 110,000 against an establishment of 190,000 in all and a recruiting ceiling of 123,000 set by the previous Government. I think we ought to keep clear in our minds the difference between the establishment and the recruiting ceiling. So 110,000 is not more than 60 per cent. of the establishment of 190,000. Category 1 of the Army Emergency Reserve is recruited to 80 per cent. of its establishment of 11,000. I think it is important, at the risk of
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boring your Lordships with these figures, that I should set the record straight.
May I now, in the closing minutes that I shall allow myself, comment on the more general aspect of these proposals for reorganisation? The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, suggested that these proposals were tied to financial ceilings imposed, as he rather quaintly put it, by the Secretary of State on his colleagues, and had nothing to do with strategic concepts. Perhaps we might look at these strategic concepts for a moment.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, may I correct the noble Lord? I said that, in default of a satisfactory answer to the point I was putting, I imagined that this was the case. I did not say this was the case.
LORD CHALFONT: I apologise to the noble Earl, and I shall do my best to give him a satisfactory answer.
There were occasions this afternoon, when I was listening to some of the speeches, when I wondered whether somehow we had not made a journey backwards in time and were taking part in a pre-nuclear Defence debate. Several speakers seemed to be drawing, rightly and justifiably, on their own experience in previous wars. I think that some noble Lords were still envisaging situations in which large conventional armies were going to march across Central Europe to the Channel Ports, and that we should again have to mobilise the nation's manpower to defend this country against invasion. Another noble Lord suggested that we might be in danger of attack from parachutists, and that we should have to take some account and make preparations for that. In a previous incarnation I was accustomed to write long and pompous articles on the subject of defence, and I was often distressed to find that the educational effect of—I will not say these articles, but of ideas on modern warfare, was very slow to spread. I should like, therefore, if I may, to say a few words about the strategic background against which this reorganisation of the Reserve Army has been planned.
First of all, the whole defence policy of this country is based on the deterrent power of the West's very formidable nuclear armoury. I think that no one would dissent from that. Because the

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members of the NATO alliance possess the power to devastate the homeland of any aggressor, and because the NATO Alliance has the will to use that power, if necessary (although we hope that it will never be used), we believe that a major war in Europe is highly unlikely. But if war came—and this is the second point I want to make and underline—there can be little doubt that it would be a nuclear war. And if anyone doubts my word on that, I can only invite them to read all the literature of the Soviet Union on the subject, and in particular the recent book by the Soviet military expert, Marshal Sokolovsky, and all the words of the present Soviet Government and the past Soviet Government.
If war came in Europe, there is very little doubt that it would be a nuclear war. The conventional forces of the British Army of the Rhine, and those of our allies, are simply not capable of holding, nor are they designed to hold, for very long a major conventional attack by the numerically superior forces in the Eastern European countries. If we were going to provide the conventional strength to do this the whole way along the Iron Curtain, it would place an intolerable strain on the resources and economies of the West.
The function of our conventional forces in all this is to deal with any minor act of aggression or frontier incident, and in the case of a major aggression, if it should happen, to identify it and to contain it long enough for all the processes of political consultation, and, if necessary, for the decision to be taken to resort to nuclear weapons. This is the strategy of the Alliance, and there is no getting away from it. In the unlikely event of a major aggression of this sort taking place, nuclear weapons would have to be used, and used without delay. I emphasise the time factor here, because the decision would have to be taken very quickly. Except in the event of the type of attack that is called the "bolt from the blue"—perhaps the most unlikely contingency of all—we should expect a very short period of tension, which would permit the calling out of limited numbers of already trained reservists to reinforce the British Army of the Rhine. But there could no longer be any question of mobilising new armies from civilian life.
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This is not a part of the modern concept of war. We cannot afford to maintain mass armies in peace time. In the nuclear age, the massing of the nation in arms is a dead concept. There would be no time in an emergency to train these people, or to provide them with the necessary sophisticated equipment, complicated equipment, and to train them to use it in modern war. I have said that this war, if it came, would be a nuclear war; and if nuclear war comes, it will be nasty, brutish and short. I hope the fact that I quote, or misquote, Hobbes will not lead any noble Lord to believe that I subscribe to his philosophies.
I wonder whether some of the noble Lords opposite who have spoken this afternoon appreciate just how devastating this would be? Perhaps they will if I say that a single Corporal missile, which is a battlefield missile used by ground troops, has a fire power greater than all the shells that were fired in the famous artillery barrage of the noble and gallant Field Marshal at El Alamein. This is just one single tactical nuclear weapon, and each side in Europe has large numbers of these tactical nuclear weapons facing the other, quite apart from the larger strategic weapons. The effect of a nuclear exchange—and I believe that after the first few had been fired the process of escalation, the gradual widening and tightening of a nuclear exchange, would be rapid—would be to produce a state of almost indescribable chaos. Communications, supplies and movements would be hopelessly disrupted, and warfare, in the sense of any controlled, large-scale military operations of the sort we have known in the past, would cease to be practicable, and certainly would cease to be relevant to the struggle for survival of the people who would be involved in this nuclear exchange.
In the context of a strategic doctrine of this sort, and in those circumstances, I urge upon your Lordships that the possibility of the invasion of these islands would be the very least of our worries; and it is certainly not something for which we any longer feel justified, in the whole context of our scale of priorities, in retaining a large Territorial Army. I believe that we must regard these Reserve Forces as part of our whole military establishment. For reasons which I need not go into in detail here, Her Majesty's

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Government have decided to contain within a certain figure the proportion of the gross national product allocated to defence. Therefore we must assess our priorities within that figure.
If money for defence were unlimited, we could have everything—Armies, Navies, Air Forces, Cadet Services, Territorial Armies: all of ideal size, all perfectly trained and perfectly organised to meet every contingency with which we might be faced. But we are not a super-Power; we are not able any longer to secure a place of predominance in the world by means of military might. We are trying to find a new place for ourselves, and one thing is certain: it must be based on a firm and strong economic basis. It would not matter if we had the most powerful Armies, Navies and Air Forces in the world: if our economy was not soundly based, they would be so much useless machinery. Therefore we must decide on our priorities.
We have heard a good deal this afternoon about a concept which has proved attractive to your Lordships but which I believe to be fallacious; that is, the concept of the fourth course. In order to advocate this concept of the fourth course, the unexpected, the unforeseen, we had to go back to von Moltke, who was a very pre-nuclear figure indeed. My Lords, we cannot maintain a military establishment designed to meet every contingency, to deal with every crisis that might arise. So what must a prudent Government do?
They must decide what contingencies they are most likely to meet in the pursuit of their foreign policy. They must then calculate which of these they can afford to insure themselves against within a reasonable cost in men and money, and then have a defence force accordingly. I believe the theory that we must also insure ourselves against unforeseen contingencies is a bad and dangerous one. We have existing tasks and commitments. Let us deal with them first, and if we then have money left over, we may be able to look to these unforeseen fourth course contingencies. But let us be quite clear that we cannot deal with everything, and that we must make sure what our priorities are.
What, then, are the contingencies with which we are most likely to be faced?
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What sort of war are we in Britain likely to want Armed Forces for? I have suggested that the invasion of Britain and nuclear war is an unlikely contingency, and that the large-scale nuclear war in Europe is an unlikely contingency. I believe that, so far as Britain is concerned, large-scale limited wars of the Korean type are also unlikely. What we shall be faced with is the sort of thing now going on in Borneo, in Southern Arabia, and in Aden—guerrilla warfare, subversion, internal security problems and the perpetual crises and operational demands of the cold war. I must emphasise once more that, although we cannot predict how all these things will turn out, we must make some assumptions about them. We cannot insure ourselves against everything. It is the Government's task to make the assumptions and to act accordingly.
I should like to diverge for a moment to answer a question asked by the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Harding of Petherton, about Civil Defence in general. We have been accused this afternoon, I think, of not taking sufficient account of the needs of home defence and of the dangers involved. A Statement on the Government's Civil Defence plans is to be made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and I know that noble Lords will not expect me to anticipate this Statement.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, could the noble Lord possibly tell us when we may expect to hear this Statement? We have heard rather contradictory reports—"In the near future", "In July", "In due course" and now, "In November".
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords. I can only tell the noble Earl that it will be as soon as possible. In reply to the noble and gallant Field Marshal—
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am terribly sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but he gave me a very bland reply then to what is holding up these proposals. Why cannot we receive them, and why is it possible for the Government to determine the relationship of the Territorial Army to Civil Defence when their own proposals on Civil Defence have not been promulgated?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I know the noble Earl will not want me to follow him in the substance of the

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examination. I am sorry if my reply about the timing was bland. I really do mean, as soon as possible. I am unable to give any further information at the moment, but if I can find out anything I will communicate the information to the noble Earl.
May I return to the noble and gallant Field Marshal, Lord Harding of Petherton, and say that at this stage it is extremely unlikely that a force such as the Territorial Army, organised on military lines, would be a useful or economical way of discharging specialised tasks of the sort mentioned by the noble and gallant Field Marshal—functions like the Auxiliary Fire Service, Mobile Police columns or the Wardens' Branch of the Civil Defence Corps. The existing Services that discharge these tasks are trained for this purpose, and I find it difficult to believe that another organisation like the Territorial Army could do the job any more effectively than they do.
THE MARQUESS OF AILSA: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene again, but the Territorial Army is trained in Civil Defence matters and firefighting.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, the hour is getting very late and, although there are many other things that I should have liked to say, and I should have liked to follow the noble Marquess further along that most interesting line of thought, I really do believe I must bring my speech to an end as quickly as I can and allow your Lordships to go home to a belated dinner.
I would, however, before I close mention one matter which I think is important. A noble Lord mentioned (I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Bourne) that the credibility of the deterrent would be diminished by removing the Territorial Army and its home defence functions from the order of battle. Without going into the deep and complicated arguments about this, I must say to your Lordships that there are very strong arguments the other way. It can be argued (I will not argue it now, out of deference to your Lordships' House) that in fact the provision of complicated and sophisticated home defence arrangements itself detracts from the credibility of the nuclear deterrent.
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In conclusion, may I repeat the words of my noble friend Lord Shackleton, that the Government will, of course, take into account all the suggestions made by noble Lords in this most interesting debate this afternoon. In the end, however, as I am sure your Lordships will agree, it is the Government who must make the decisions about these proposed changes. The proposals, as your Lordships know, will see the light of day soon. I believe that they will be seen to be an extremely effective and objective attempt to rationalise the Reserve Forces and to bring them into line with modern strategic concepts. This country, and certainly Her Majesty's Government, will never forget what the Territorial Army has done for this country, not least the fact that it has helped to save this country in two world wars.
I assure your Lordships that the opportunities for voluntary service will remain, but we shall, as a result of this reorganisation, have a force and organisation designed specifically to meet the real crises with which we are faced and which we are likely to face in the future. I hope that noble Lords opposite and everyone else in the country will help Her Majesty's Government to make this new force as resounding a success as the Territorial Army has been in the past.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I have listened with great interest to what the noble Lord has said, particularly on this whole question of home defence, but can he tell us why our NATO allies, who are presumably in the same boat as ourselves in this matter, are, if anything, strengthening, and not weakening, their home defence forces at the present time.
LORD CHALFONT: I think it would be unwise to follow the noble Earl too far down that path this evening. But I would make one point. A number of our allies in NATO—he will know this—have an entirely different military structure from our own. Many of them base their armies upon the civilian soldier concept, upon the levée en masse, and their requirements for reserves are very different from ours. There is also the fact that the geographical position, and the tactical and strategic position, of some of our allies—not all, but some—is vastly different from our own and their requirements for reserves are very different. I should be delighted

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to debate this aspect with the noble Earl, but perhaps at some other time.
LORD THURLOW: My Lords, at this late hour I think there is nothing left for me to do except to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate; to express the hope that the Government will have another look at some of our suggestions, and to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, on his maiden speech. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SOUTHERN RHODESIA (WITHDRAWAL OF COMMONWEALTH PREFERENCE) (No. 2) ORDER 1965
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that he had received, under the proviso of Section Four of the Statutory
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Instruments Act 1946, a notification that the Southern Rhodesia (Withdrawal of Commonwealth Preference) (No. 2) Order 1965 had come into operation before being laid before Parliament, with an explanation thereof.
The said notification and explanation was ordered to lie on the Table.
Order made under Section 2 of the Southern Rhodesia Act 1965 by Her Majesty in Council.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for Affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee forthwith.
House adjourned at sixteen minutes before nine o'clock.