Sitting of 18 November 1965

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN

  QUEEN'S SPEECH (ANSWER TO ADDRESS)
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  GIBRALTAR

    Constitution and Financial Assistance
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement about constitutional progress and financial assistance for Gibraltar.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mrs. Eirene White): The present constitution of Gibraltar was introduced just over a year ago after full consultation with the political leaders in Gibraltar. It is the view of Her Majesty's Government, which is shared by the elected members of the Gibraltar Legislative Council, that further constitutional change is not at present desirable.
    As regards financial assistance, I would invite the hon. Member's attention to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development on 4th November to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor). It was also agreed to make available £100,000 as a special grant-in-aid of Gibraltar's budget for the current year.
    Mr. Wall: Is it not a fact that the £1 million already promised to Gibraltar has
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    been earmarked for buildings and schools? Will the hon. Lady assure the House that the development of Gibraltar will not be held up by lack of finance? Is she aware that the Spanish Government have now said that they will agree to talks with the British Government without any preconditions and will she see that these talks start quickly?
    Mrs. White: In reply to the last part of the supplementary, the hon. Gentleman knows that this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. As to development, we are, of course, in close touch with the Gibraltar Government and, in any case, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development deals with development matters.

    Frontier Restrictions
    Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action Her Majesty's Government propose to take to assist Gibraltar in her difficulties arising from the Spanish frontier restrictions.
    Mrs. White: Our aim is to increase the self-sufficiency of Gibraltar.
    The Gibraltar Government expects shortly to receive the report of the Development Study Group. Meanwhile action has been taken to ensure maximum co-operation by Departments of the United Kingdom Government which are concerned with Gibraltar.
    Mr. Fisher: As the Gibraltar restrictions, really through no fault of the Colony, have now been in operation for over a year, could the hon. Lady tell us whether the Government—after all, she is a Minister and I hope that she will not always ride out on the Foreign Office—have plans for conversations with the Spanish Government, or any other political proposals as opposed to economic, in order to be able to carry out the promises which they made in a White Paper issued last April, to defend and sustain the people of Gibraltar?
    Mrs. White: I do not wish to ride off any Questions, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, who has himself been a Minister, will recognise that one does not cross departmental lines in these matters. As I replied to his hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall), there have been suggestions in Gibraltar for some constitutional changes, but it

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    is the view of both the elected members of Gibraltar and of Her Majesty's Government that for the time being a change in the Constitution would not help matters.

  ADEN

    Security and Constitution
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he will make a statement about security and the constitutional situation in Aden.
    Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, what plans he has for constitutional progress in the South Arabian Federation.
    Mr. Jacksonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he will make a statement concerning the possibility of renewed political advance towards independence for Aden and the South Arabian Federation.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Anthony Greenwood): Although the security situation in Aden State has improved in recent weeks, there have been further terrorist attacks during the last few days. No appointments have yet been made to the Advisory Council for Aden State for which provision was made in the Aden (Temporary Provisions) Order, 1965.
    The Federal Government have appointed Sir Ralph Hone and Sir Gawain Bell to advise them on liberalising and improving the Federal Constitution. Their report is expected early in the New Year. We hope that this will lead to a speedy resumption of constitutional progress.
    Meanwhile, my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and for the Colonies is visiting South Arabia to study the problems of the area, and to have discussions with the High Commissioner and other authorities there.
    Mr. Wall: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the causes behind the present situation is the continued support given by certain members of his own party to the Adeni politicians in their resistance against the Federal Government? Will he make it clear again that power is to be handed over to the Federal Government and that it is up to
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    the political parties in Aden to co-operate with the Government?
    Mr. Greenwood: I know of nothing to substantiate the allegations in the first part of the supplementary question. As to the second part, the constitutional position is perfectly clear.
    Mr. Jackson: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House, in the general context of the security of Aden and the Federation, what is the situation on the Yemen frontier, and does he have any view about possible improved relations when a new coalition Government emerges in that country?
    Mr. Greenwood: Improved relations with the Yemen is a matter which the hon. Gentleman should put to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. At the moment the situation is rather easier and we hope that it will continue so.
    Mr. Fisher: As both my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) and the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary of State have promised the Federation independence by 1968, and as the right hon. Gentleman has now had to go back to direct rule—I do not complain of that at all—could he give some idea of what his plans are for bringing Aden Colony and the Federal rulers closer together as a necessary lead-in to independence in 1968?
    Mr. Greenwood: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. I think that all of us regretted the need for the suspension of the Constitution. It has, however, produced greater stability in the area and we must hope that when the report of Sir Ralph Hone and Sir Gawain Bell is available it will be possible to start fruitful discussions between the Federal Government and Aden, which is, of course, a part of the Federation.

    Terrorism (Security Precautions)
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many acts of terrorism causing personal injury have taken place in Aden during the last three months; what additional security precautions have been taken; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Greenwood: 35 utterly senseless acts of terrorism causing death or personal

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    injury have occurred in Aden State since 15th August. In recent weeks the security authorities have had encouraging successes in the detection of agents of the National Liberation Front. After some reduction in terrorist activity, during the last few days, there have been a number of further attacks including three shooting incidents. Special emergency legislation allowing for the closure of roads, vehicle curfews and restricted residence was introduced in Aden State by the High Commissioner in June. Further measures since then include road checks and selective searches; static guards at key points and places of entertainment used by Service men and their families; additional protection for Government offices and individual quarters where necessary; the removal of British Forces' families from vulnerable hired quarters, the fencing off of surrounding areas and access roads and paths and the provision of hard surfaces as a safeguard against mines; improvements to the security of Aden airport; and the supply of small arms to Government officers when so recommended by the Commissioner of Police.
    Mr. King: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, whatever the political developments that might ensue, will he continually bear in mind the anxieties of those who have relatives serving there? They have been in considerable apprehension.
    Mr. Greenwood: I very much appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. It is an anxiety which is shared deeply by myself and my colleagues.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES

    Department (Staff)
    Mr. Onslowasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what increase or decrease there was in the staff of the department under his control in the period 16th October, 1964, to 15th October, 1965; and what increase or decease he anticipates in the period up to 15th April, 1966.
    Mrs. White: The number of staff in posts in the Colonial Office on the 16th October, 1964, was 632 and there were 16 unfilled vacancies. The corresponding figures for the 15th October, 1965, are 580 and 41 respectively.
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    The staff will shortly be increased by 16 when Communications Department is transferred back to the Colonial Office from the Ministry of Overseas Development.
    Mr. Onslow: Can the Minister tell the House something more about these vacancies, why they are not filled and whether it is really necessary to fill them?
    Mrs. White: It is undoubtedly necessary to fill the vacancies. The reasons for their not being filled would be much too complicated to deal with in answer to a supplementary question.

    School-Leaving Age
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the names of the Colonies which come under his jurisdiction and which do not have a compulsory school leaving age.
    Mrs. White: I do not have complete information but Colonial Governments have been asked to supply it and I will let the hon. Member have the information when it is received.
    Mr. Dempsey: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is a well-known fact that in some of our Colonies children are leaving school at the early age of nine, whatever educational facilities they may be having up to that age, in order to become sweated labour? When she gets this information will she do her utmost to ensure that we will have an adequate educational system, without which these people can never progress to self-government?
    Mrs. White: We are, of course, always anxious to improve educational facilities. My hon. Friend will appreciate that in a number of Colonial Territories this is now a matter for the local government.

  DIEGO GARCIA

    Future
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement about the future of Diego Garcia.
    Mr. Greenwood: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave on 10th November to my hon. Friend the

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    Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson). Diego Garcia is one of the islands in the Chagos Archipelago.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Can the Minister say how the Government's discussions are going on with a view to establishing an Anglo-American base?
    An Hon. Member: Very well.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: In that event, may I be assured that there will be no effect on the sovereignty of the territory?
    Mr. Greenwood: The question of the defence use to which the island is to be put is a matter which should be referred to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. There is certainly no question of any derogation from Britain's sovereignty of these territories.

  FIJI

    Banabans (Representations)
    Mr. Bryant Godman Irvineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action he has taken as a result of the representations by the Banabans made to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State during her visit to Fiji.
    Mrs. White: I gave the Banabans all the assurances for which they asked. No other action was necessary.
    Mr. Godman Irvine: While thanking the hon. Lady for her reply, is she satisfied with the position which prevails in which the Banabans are getting 2s. 8d. a ton royalty for their phosphates, whereas the Gilbert and Ellice Islands Administration is charging 23s. per ton to finance their Administration? Does she feel that this is a satisfactory arrangement and ought she not to have another look at this?
    Mrs. White: That is really another question. That was not raised by the Banabans with me when I saw them. That has transpired since. If the hon. Member would care to put down a Question on that particular point. I would be happy to answer it.

  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

    South-East Study (Poole)
    Mr. Murtonasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he has completed his examination of the South-East Study; and what effect the conclusions he has reached will have on the growth of the population of Poole.
    The Minister of State, Department of Economic Affairs (Mr. Austen Albu): I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary gave on 26th October to a Question by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten).
    Mr. Murton: Does the Minister realise that a whole year has now passed since he began his examination and the continual delay is holding up the review?
    Mr. Albu: I understand the anxieties in Poole and we are certainly going to try to reach a final decision as soon as possible. In the meantime the hon. Gentleman may like to know that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is very ready to discuss, sympathetically, any problems that are worrying the local authorities.

    Electric Traction Equipment (Export)
    Mr. Palmerasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs to what extent the Electrical Engineering Economic Development Council has taken into consideration the importance of United Kingdom railway electrification as a basis, economic and technical, for the increased sale of British electric traction equipment to overseas buyers.
    Mr. Albu: In examining exports of this equipment the Economic Development Council has invited the Government's attention to the relationship between exports and the size of the home market. We shall bear this in mind when considering future investment proposals from the British Railways Board.
    Mr. Palmer: While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask if he will bear in mind how important it is

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    that we continue with main line railway electrification, not only because of its own merits but as a shop window for the export trade in electric traction vehicles?
    Mr. Albu: I think my hon. Friend knows that this matter is still under consideration. In fact, the Minister of Transport is reappraising the costs and benefits of electrification of the line northwards, from Weaver Junction to Carlisle, and, in this consideration, matters to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention will certainly be taken into account.

    Economic Councils (Women Members)
    Miss Quennellasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will appoint some women to economic boards or councils; and if he will take into consideration the fact that members are yet to be appointed for the South-East Region.
    Mr. Albu: My right hon. Friend has already appointed some women to these councils. In appointing council members my right hon. Friend's first consideration is the contribution which they seem likely to make to the work.
    Miss Quennell: While appreciating that the Minister has very sound reasons for his reply, may I point out that so far no women at all have been appointed to any of the boards and that only three women have been appointed to the councils, one in the East Midlands, one from Yorkshire and one, I think, from Wales? It is hardly a sensible reflection of the ability of the women in our country and of the policy.
    Mr. Albu: With regard to the boards, I am sure that the hon. Lady will recognise that except for the chairmen, who are appointed by my right hon. Friend, the other members are the representatives of the Departments in Whitehall. I do not think that in these matters—being rather a feminist myself—one should necessarily take sex into consideration in making these appointments. One should appoint the best person for the job.

    Labour (Regional Demands)
    Mr. Grimondasked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what proposals he has
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    for restraining demand for labour in the regions of the country where it may be too high, without causing a check to development and excessive unemployment in the regions where it is too low.
    Mr. Albu: We have exempted development districts from the measures announced in July to slow down the growth of public and private investment; we are exercising control over office development in the areas round London and Birmingham; and we have tightened the controls on industrial development in places with high demand for labour. These measures are already having the intended effects in the regions. The Government's further proposals to improve the regional balance were, of course, mentioned in the Gracious Speech.
    Mr. Grimond: Does not the Minister think, however, that there is still acute danger that though the extra demand and money may be pumped into some regions which require it, there is too big a flow-back to the South-East? Will the hon. Gentleman look at differential rates of taxation in addition to the measures which he has mentioned?
    Mr. Albu: We are looking at all possible measures. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is the Government's firm intention to ensure that there is a proper balance of employment and economic activity throughout the country. In this matter, Scottish considerations are always before us.

  BOARD OF TRADE

    Industrial Development, Royston
    Mrs. Shirley Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now accept proposals for industrial development in Royston, in view of the proposed expansion of the town.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. George Darling): I think that we should wait until decisions are taken about expansion in Royston before considering how much industrial development may be needed.
    Mrs. Williams: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that a decision in principle has been made in favour of expansion between the county council and the local

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    council, and unless there is industrial development fairly shortly Royston could develop into a commuter town, which would be very undesirable?
    Mr. Darling: Yes, but, as I think my hon. Friend knows, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is considering this proposal in the review of the South-East Study. The industrial developments, if any are required, will come along after that study is finished.

    Companies Act, 1948 (Private Companies)
    Mr. Parkasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce legislation to amend section 129(4) of the Companies Act, 1948, whereby private companies are at present exempt from public financial scrutiny.
    Mr. Harold Walkerasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he intends to take to reduce the privileges of exempted private companies.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Douglas Jay): I would ask my hon. Friends to await the proposals I shall be making for new companies legislation.
    Mr. Park: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his Answer, may I express the hope that this legislation will not be too long delayed? Does he consider that it should include provision to require private companies of this character to file their accounts and records with the Registrar of Companies at Bush House?
    Mr. Jay: I can assure my hon. Friend that I shall take special note of his views on this subject.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Would the right hon. Gentleman recognise that in making this recommendation the Jenkins Committee had in mind the interests of creditors and not that private affairs should be exposed to the public gaze? Would he undertake to bear in mind and to include in the legislation the two exemptions which the Committee recommended in its recommendations on this subject?
    Mr. Jay: We will certainly pay due regard to that also.
    Mr. Harold Walker: In preparing his proposals, will my right hon. Friend give
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    very careful consideration to the activities of the Service Group of companies which, because of the legal loophole existing in the regulations, appear to have developed a very lucrative racket out of hiring out non-existent launderettes?
    Mr. Jay: We will certainly not disregard that either.

    Companies' Debts and Liabilities (Directors' Responsibility)
    Mr. Parkasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce legislation to make directors of companies personally responsible for their companies' debts and liabilities in cases where incompetence or culpability can be proved.
    Mr. Jay: Under Section 332 of the Companies Act, in certain circumstances the court may make a director of a company who was knowingly party to its fraudulent trading, personally responsible for its debts. The proposals which I shall be making this Session for new companies legislation will not extend to amendment of Section 332.
    Mr. Park: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Answer, but will he look at this question again? Would not he agree that the Jenkins Committee found some time ago that there was abundant evidence already in existence that a change in the law on this matter was needed? Would not he accept that investors should have a right of redress against those who are responsible for the mismanagement of their investments?
    Mr. Jay: I agree with my hon. Friend that this is an imporant point. But there is a limit to the amount of legislation which we can carry through in the present Session.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: If the Minister gives further thought to this matter, as the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Park) suggests, will he carry it to its logical conclusion? If unofficial strikes cause the debts, will he make the strikers responsible?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That does not arise on this Question.

    Donibrisrle Industrial Estate, Fife
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade how many new jobs have been created on the

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    Donibristle Industrial Estate in Fife; how many of those jobs are for males and females, respectively; and how many additional jobs are in prospect.
    Mr. Darling: The number of new jobs which have been created on the Board of Trade Industrial Estate at Donibristle since 1964 is 299. Of these, 191 are for men and 108 for women. There are 225 jobs in prospect within the next two or three years.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my hon. Friend say how these figures—either the jobs already created or those in prospect—match the numbers likely to be declared redundant as a result of expedited pit closures in the next two or three years? Can he say what proportion of the jobs in prospect are for males and whether there is any tenant for the advance factory now almost completed, I think?
    Mr. Darling: On the last point, I understand that the advance factory is expected to be completed by the end of this year. I also understand that a number of industrialists have already shown considerable interest in it. As for the rest of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, as he will know, we are considering measures which will need to be taken to deal with mine closures. I should like notice of his question about the number of men involved in the 225 jobs in propsect.

    Uneconomic Coal Mines (Closure)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade what plans he has for the establishment of publicly-owned industries in those areas likely to suffer from the expedited closure of uneconomic coal mines.
    Mr. Jay: I have announced in the last 12 months a programme of 55 new Government-financed advance factories in development districts, of which 32 are in coal-mining areas. The Government are taking vigorous action to provide other employment for miners affected by the expedited closure of uneconomic coal mines.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that news is very, very welcome as an indication of the Government's sympathy with the nature of the problem? But it does not answer the Question on the Order Paper, which asks about
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    the establishment of publicly-owned industries in these areas. Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the phasing of pit closures with new industrial development is not likely to be smooth unless and until we fulfil the pledge we gave at the election?
    Mr. Jay: With all respect to my hon. Friend, these are publicly-owned factories. But in so far as it is possible to introduce further publicly-owned enterprises in these areas, we shall be delighted to do so.
    Mr. Barber: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will give the House a categorical assurance that it is not the intention of the Government to establish entirely new nationalised industries as is envisaged in this Question?
    Mr. Jay: It certainly is the intention of the Government in this Session to introduce legislation to widen the powers of nationalised industries to manufacture. I hope that that will contribute to employment in these areas.

    Textiles (Imports from Hong Kong)
    Mr. A. Royleasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give an assurance that there will be no further erosion of Hong Kong's position regarding the import of textiles into the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Jay: The proposals which I put to the exporting countries for the control of imports into the United Kingdom from 1966 to 1970 do not involve subjecting Hong Kong to any reduction in her present quota. We shall maintain close contact with the Hong Kong Government during the international discussions on these proposals.
    Mr. Royle: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my Question. Would he give an assurance that he will ensure that there is no further erosion of Hong Kong's textile position in view of the recent decision not to allow a carry-over into next year? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, unlike an independent country such as India, Hong Kong is wholly dependent on the United Kingdom Government? Will the right hon. Gentleman try to look after our dependent territories and not attack them?
    Mr. Jay: The hon. Gentleman has not got the facts quite right. So far from there having been any erosion of Hong Kong's position, under the previous Government Hong Kong had a fixed textile quota whereas in future it will have a rising quota.
    Mr. Mapp: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the intense satisfaction in the North-West with the policy which he is pursuing for the home industry and in resisting the squalid implications of this Question? Will he be in a position to make an interim statement on the negotiations well before the end of the year?
    Mr. Jay: So far as I know, all the policies which I am pursuing for all the industries concerned are giving satisfaction to those industires.
    Mr. Blaker: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether his new quota arrangements are intended to apply only against under-developed countries such as Hong Kong, which in addition has to cope with 2 million refugees? What pressure is he bringing to bear on the advanced countries, such as France and America, to liberalise their textile imports?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must not have too wide supplementary questions.
    Mr. A. Royleasked the President of the Board of Trade why he has refused to carry over Hong Kong's unused textile quota for 1965 into 1966.
    Mr. Jay: The present restraint arrangement terminates at the end of the year, and it was not possible to provide for the carry-over of any unused quotas for Hong Kong or any other country into the new arrangements which we have proposed.
    Mr. Royle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Hong Kong feels betrayed through the Government disregarding their obligations in this way, particularly as the reason for the large amount of textiles to be carried over into next year has been largely caused by the present Administration's import duties which apply to made-up goods? Will the right hon. Gentleman please look at this again?
    Mr. Jay: Anybody who feels betrayed has not read the agreement which was
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    made by the previous Government. That agreement, as is made perfectly clear in the first sentence, terminates at the end of 1965.
    Mr. Blaker: In view of the strong feelings in Hong Kong about the Government's action in this connection, can the Government undertake to make strenuous efforts to protect the interests of Hong Kong at the forthcoming G.A.T.T. discussions?
    Mr. Jay: Yes.
    Mr. Royle: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Western European Time
    Mr. Tilneyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make an estimate of the extent to which the introduction of Western European time for Great Britain throughout the year would stimulate British trade with Europe.
    Mr. Darling: I see no way of making such an estimate. But I am aware of the inconvenience which the difference of time involves and it is one of the considerations which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department will have in mind when he reviews the arrangements for Summer Time.
    Mr. Tilney: Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the resolution of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce urging that time in this country should be the same as Western European time? Does he agree that there is a loss during the winter of 25 per cent. contact time by telephone and telex and that the problems of time for the farmer in Normandy are the same as for the farmer in Kent?
    Mr. Darling: I am aware of the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. As to the second part, I am not sure that such estimates can be accepted without further investigation.

    Walkie-Talkie Sets (Imports)
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilsonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will seek powers to prohibit the import

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    of walkie-talkie sets operating in the 27 megacycles band, which it is illegal to use in this country because no licence to use them can be obtained, thereby preventing fraud on the public by the sale to them of useless articles; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Darling: No, Sir. The Board of Trade cannot, because of the practical difficulties involved, use their powers to control imports of goods which might in certain circumstances prove useless to the purchaser. Legislation to control imports of the walkie-talkie sets in question would be a matter for my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General.
    Mr. Wilson: Is it not preposterous that foreign currency should be used to import goods which it is illegal to use in this country, thereby encouraging the public to act illegally or shopkeepers to commit a fraud on the public by selling them things which they cannot use? Surely it is in the interests of the economy to prevent such a thing? Does it not come within the existing powers which the Board of Trade has for protecting our economic interests?
    Mr. Darling: To the last part of the supplementary question the answer is "No". The Board of Trade's activities, in so far as it has supervision over the import and export trade, cover a tremendously wide field, and the Board of Trade's actions in regard to control of imports must properly be taken on a commercial basis. If the allegations in the Question of the hon. Member are correct, it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General to deal with, and if he states that the import of sets should be banned because if they are brought in they will not be licensed, then he can take the appropriate action.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Will the Minister bear in mind that this problem arises to a great extent owing to the fact that neither the citizens nor the trade are kept properly informed as to what bands are available? Will he consult the Postmaster-General to see that greater knowledge is given of these bands? This is very important.
    Mr. Darling: To the second part of the question the answer is, Yes. As to the first part, dealers who are known to be selling these sets have been reminded by
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    the General Post Office that they will not be licensed for speech transmission, and I hope that this answer to the questions which have been put to me will give wider publicity to that fact.
    Mr. Wilson: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Methane (Imports from Algeria)
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloydasked the President of the Board of Trade which of the considerations which led to the present tariff classification of methane imported from Algeria have since changed.
    Mr. Darling: I would refer the right hon. Member to the White Paper on Fuel Policy, which sets out the changes which have occurred in the position of the gas industry since imported methane was made free of duty.
    Mr. Lloyd: Is the Minister aware that but for this imported methane the recent gas crisis in the Midlands would have been very much worse, and that this methane was imported under a 15-year contract by the Gas Boards on the basis that it would not be taxed on importation, and that the threat contained in the fuel policy White Paper, to which the Minister referred, that it may be taxed, obviously for political reasons, has thrown a wholly undesirable uncertainty into the future plans of the Gas Boards?
    Mr. Darling: I do not agree with the conclusions which the right hon. Member is drawing from this matter, but I would say to him that if there were any consideration of changing the duty, such matters as he has raised would be taken into consideration.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Would the Minister give a categorical assurance that there would be no intention whatever of imposing tax on any methane which may be discovered in the North Sea?
    Mr. Darling: It is quite impossibe to give that assurance, and in any case the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power.

    Employment, The Hartlepools
    Mr. Leadbitterasked the President of the Board of Trade how many new jobs have been made available in The

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    Hartlepools since October, 1964; and what is the estimated provision during the year 1965–66.
    Mr. Darling: Some 2,780 jobs are expected to arise from projects covered by industrial development certificates approved in the 12 months ended 31st October, 1965, but many of these jobs have still to come.
    Mr. Leadbitter: In thanking the Minister for the very encouraging information he has conveyed to the House, may I ask him to bear in mind that over 50 per cent. of the unemployed in The Hartlepools are over 40 years of age, and that we in this constituency are very concerned about the incidence and consequences of port redevelopment? We have a considerably large number of unemployed in The Hartlepools compared with the national average. For these reasons would he assure the House of his continuing interest—
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Get on with it. Too long.
    Mr. Leadbitter: —when plans are being reviewed for advance factories?
    Mr. Darling: I can assure my hon. Friend that all these matters are being taken into consideration, and I can assure him that my right hon. Friend and I will not cease to do good for The Hartlepools till the level of unemployment there is below 1 per cent.

  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Schoolchildren, Rural Areas (Free Transport)
    Mr. Bessellasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will review the regulations governing the provision of free transport for schoolchildren under the age of 12 years who live, in rural areas.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Edward Redhead): No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the present arrangements are sufficiently flexible for local education authorities to provide transport for pupils who live within statutory walking distance when they consider this justified.
    Mr. Bessell: Is the Minister aware that this reply will be received with dismay in the rural areas where young children under the age of 12 have to walk almost three miles in dark lanes in the winter through desolate country, and that the situation is wholly unsatisfactory, and that we expect a very much greater interest to be taken in this matter by the Minister?
    Mr. Redhead: The hon. Member must bear in mind that the statutory walking distance is not defined by regulations but by Statute—Section 39(5) of the Education Act, 1944. In any event a discretion is given to local authorities, who have been reminded of this discretion in dealing with specific difficulties in a circular as recently as February this year.

    Teacher-Training Colleges (Places)
    Mrs. Shirley Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in providing places at teacher-training colleges and similar institutions for mature students.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Anthony Crosland): In the academic year 1964–65 there were 7,300 non graduate students aged 25 and over following courses of initial teacher training in the general and specialist colleges of education. This compares with 5,700 in 1963–64 and 4,400 in 1962–63, and last year older students represented over 14 per cent. of the total intake to initial training courses. Total numbers for the current year are not yet available but are expected to show a further rise.
    Mrs. Williams: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his strenuous efforts in this direction, may I ask him if he is aware that many married women who undertake teaching cannot find courses for teachers in school hours and are, therefore, unable to train if they wish to return home to meet their children coming back from school?
    Mr. Crosland: I am aware of this. For this reason I am trying to encourage measures, which are not easy in practice, to start a system of part-time training which will meet this particular difficulty.

    Immigration (Circular 7–65)
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now give an estimate of the additional cost which would have to be borne by local authorities if all the recom-menations in Circular 7–65 on immigration were implemented.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell): This would necessitate obtaining detailed information and estimates from the local education authorities concerned, and would not in my view justify the work involved.
    Mr. Hall: Would the Minister not agree that the suggestion made to local authorities that they need extra teachers, and, to quote his words, additional welfare assistants, additional clerical assistance, to deal with the problem, quite apart from the recommendation dealing with additional transport facilities, imposes a very considerable additional burden on local authorities in certain areas, and is it not right that part of this burden should be borne by the Ministry?
    Mr. Howell: It is correct that it provides a burden to some authorities. It varies considerably from place to place, and it is a fact that the Government, in certain circumstances, are proposing to help provide extra money for this.
    Sir E. Boyle: Would the Minister not agree that, quite apart from the question of the circular, one of the most important aspects of this matter is the teaching of English to immigrants, and that this is a matter where public funds should not be skimped?
    Mr. Howell: I certainly agree, and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, we have

    Pupils

    Teachers {including part-time teachers at their full-time equivalent value)

    Type of Secondary School

    Number

    Percentage of total

    Number

    Percentage

    Modern

    …

    …

    1,555,132

    55·2

    78,567

    52·1

    Grammar

    …

    …

    718,705

    25·5

    41,861

    27·8

    Technical

    …

    …

    84,587

    3·0

    4,965

    3·3

    Bilateral and Multilateral

    …

    66,166

    2·3

    3,549

    2·3

    Comprehensive

    …

    …

    239,619

    8·5

    13,364

    8·9

    Other

    …

    …

    154,845

    5·5

    8,372

    5·6

    All Secondary Schools

    …

    2,819,054

    100·0

    150,678

    100·0

    NOTE: The differences in staffing in the types of school reflect the varying proportion of pupils in Sixth Forms who are taught in smaller groups.
    particularly made arrangements to improve the teacher ratio in this case, and, of course, account will be taken by the Department of the results of inquiries into things to be done.
    Mr. Hall: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Secondary School Places
    Mr. John Wellsasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the total number of secondary school places in England and Wales at the beginning of the 1965 school year; what percentages of these places were comprehensive, grammar, technical, secondary modern and special, respectively; and how many teachers there are in each category.
    Mr. Redhead: As the Answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Wells: Could the Minister extract the figure for teachers in special schools and give the House some assurance on this—that special school facilities are adequate?
    Mr. Redhead: I regret that it is not possible to give figures specifically for special schools. These schools are not included because they are not divided into the categories asked for in the Question.
    Following is the Answer:
    Information is collected in January. The following table shows the position in maintained secondary schools in England and Wales, in January, 1965. Special schools are not included as they are not divided into the categories asked for:

    Royal Commission
    Sir D. Kaberryasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to report upon all aspects of education in this country involving costs, supply of teachers, teacher training, ages of pupils, nursery schools, and the wage structure of the teaching profession.
    Mr. Crosland: No, Sir. The needs and problems of the education service are already well known. On the specific points mentioned in the Question, present and future costs and resources are analysed in the National Plan. The supply of teachers and teacher training was exhaustively considered in the Ninth Report of the National Advisory Council. Ages of pupils and nursery schools are now being examined by the Plowden Council. The wage structure was the subject of a recent arbitration award. The appointment of a Royal Commission on education would add nothing to our knowledge; and while it sat I should have to defer many vital and urgent decisions.
    Sir D. Kaberry: Would it not be better to have a comprehensive inquiry of this kind in public where all up-to-date views can be presented? Has the Secretary of State anything to hide on this matter?
    Mr. Crosland: No. I think the education service, if anything, is rather over-inquired into. What we need now is not more inquiries but policies and action there.

    Village Playing Fields (Suspension of Grants)
    Mr. Arthur Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science on what date grant aid for the purchase and equipping of village playing fields was suspended; and on what date this suspension became operative.
    Mr. Denis Howell: The suspension of grants to local voluntary organisations towards the capital cost of providing new sporting and recreational facilities resulted from the economy measures introduced by the Chancellor in his speech of 27th July.
    1326
    It applied from that date to all projects for which no binding commitment had been entered into and which were not situated in development districts.
    Mr. Jones: How does the Joint Under-Secretary justify the statement he has made with the report of his comments which appeared in the Daily Telegraph on 30th October that
    "only grants for capital work projects such as new club houses for sporting clubs"
    had been suspended? How does he justify this statement in the context of his refusal to make a grant for purchasing and equipping a playing field in the village of Hartwell in Northamptonshire?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member may not quote a newspaper in asking a question.
    Mr. Howell: I am justified by the fact that it happens to be a true and accurate statement of affairs. That particular project was a capital project and was therefore deferred.
    Mr. J. E. B. Hill: What will happen to the backlog of applications at the end of the six months' suspension?
    Mr. Howell: We have asked the authorities to continue to plan and send their proposals to us for the moment when the standstill is relieved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There is already evidence—in spite of the jocular reception which that received—that they are already doing so.

    Mathematics and Physics
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give an estimate of the number of Ph.Ds. awarded in mathematics and physics in 1963–64; and if he will state the number of new academic posts created in universities and colleges in that year in mathematics and physics.
    The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. R. E. Prentice): The number of Ph.Ds. awarded by universities in Great Britain in 1963–64 in mathematics was 84 and in physics 339.
    I will write as soon as posible to my hon. Friend about the second part of his Question.

    B.Sc. Degree Course, Woolwich Polytechnic
    Mr. Bryant Godman Irvineasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why his decision to cancel the bachelor of science degree course in applied physics at the Woolwich Polytechnic was not conveyed to the students for five weeks after he was aware that the number who had enrolled for the course was one below the required minimum.
    Mr. Prentice: The course started on 27th September. Until a late stage there was some doubt whether the minimum numbers would be achieved. When it became clear that the number of firm enrolments was only five, the Inner London Education Authority submitted an appeal for exceptional approval for the course to continue. My Department received this appeal on 19th October and gave the Authority their decision orally within a few days, confirming it by letter on 28th October. All the students have now been accommodated in other courses.
    Mr. Godman Irvine: Would the Minister not agree that this discloses a situation at which he should have another look? These young people were spending six weeks getting ready to start a new course. Just as they are getting satisfied with the work they are doing they are told they cannot go on. Is that right?
    Mr. Prentice: I agree with the hon. Member that it would have been better if the course had never started. I gather that the Inner London Education Authority was in some doubt about the numbers and about student options after the course started. That is what led to this particular situation.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Bathing Fatalities
    Mr. Bessellasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in view of the substantial increase in bathing fatalities, what measures he proposes in order to give warning to bathers in holiday resorts.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Frank Soskice): Under Sections 231 and 233 of the Public
    1328
    Health Act 1936, local authorities have powers to make byelaws with reference to public bathing, including byelaws for the purpose of protecting bathers from danger.
    Mr. Bessell: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is satisfied that the existing regulations are satisfactory and whether there is any further step that he proposes to take to ensure the safety of bathers in the future?
    Sir F. Soskice: A special national winter safety campaign was launched this year by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and also in the same year a special circular went round from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government calling attention of local authorities to that campaign. I do not think at the moment that any further steps are necessary.

    Mr. Bert Bensen
    Mr. Ormeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why he has again refused admittance into Great Britain to Mr. Bert Bensen.
    Sir F. Soskice: Mr. Bensen is the subject of a deportation order which requires him to remain out of the United Kingdom and which I am not prepared to revoke.
    Mr. Orme: May I ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether he will give some reason why he will not revoke the refusal for Mr. Bensen to visit this country both for family and business reasons? This is not in keeping with British tradition of free entry into this country.
    Sir F. Soskice: In my opinion, there are ample reasons why my predecessor made the order, and those reasons are still valid.

    Prisoner Holmes
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) why he has ordered medical tests on Prisoner Holmes, and what information he has from these tests;
    (2) when he expects to be able to release Prisoner Holmes, and if he will take into consideration the fact that he has served more than the sentence he was originally given.
    The Minister of State, Home Department (Miss Alice Bacon): My right hon. and learned Friend hopes that he will soon have completed his current review of this case, in which he will take into account all relevant considerations. His concern is to see whether in all the circumstances of the case he should be justified in authorising the prisoner's release on licence for a second time, and in this connection Holmes has been under medical investigation: the reports of this investigation are confidential.
    Brigadier Clarke: Does the hon. Lady know that this man has had many medical tests? As far as I know, each one has proved that he is not mental, and I have given the hon. Lady and the Home Secretary a number of letters written by him which show quite clearly that he is absolutely sane. This man has served over 10 years in prison. He was originally given a sentence of 10 years and then, because he appealed, the judge said that he was insane. There was never a test carried out, but he has done over 10 years now. He has been let out once and been pulled back again, and he ought not to be in jail.
    Miss Bacon: I cannot think that discussing this man's medical condition on the Floor of the House will help him in his rehabilitation, if my right hon. and learned Friend decides to let him out for a second time. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, this is a very sad and sordid case where the crime was one of rape of a girl of 11, and I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to wait until my right hon. Friend has finished the review.
    Brigadier Clarke: In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory Answer and the amount of time that I have spent on this case, I will raise it on the Adjournment.

    Firearms Amnesty (Collectors' Pieces)
    Mr. Draysonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that under the surrender of firearms amnesty some people are handing in antique weapons or firearms which can be regarded as collectors' pieces; and if he will give an assurance that, when these are disposed of for cash, the person who gave them in will receive adequate compensation.
    Sir F. Soskice: I have asked chief officers of police to arrange that members of the public handing in collectors' pieces should as far as practicable be consulted as to their disposal, and I have said that in my view disposal by the owner through a reputable dealer would be proper. No surrendered firearms are sold to dealers by the police.

    HEREDITARY PEERAGES
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will introduce legislation to translate hereditary peerages into life peerages, thus removing the hereditary factor from the legislature;
    (2) whether he will introduce legislation excluding from hereditary peerages the right to a seat in the legislature.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): No, Sir.
    Mr. Morris: Is the Prime Minister aware that a three-letter word in reply to my Question would have been widely welcomed, except perhaps by the B.B.C., and that there is widespread and rising disgust at the delaying tactics of people who are responsible to nobody? Can he indicate whether the Government might provide facilities for a well-supported Private Member's Bill to remove the hereditary system?
    The Prime Minister: I think that there is cause for my hon. Friend's concern about the way in which essential Government legislation has been mauled in another place in the past Session and the delays that have occurred on social legislation, but I do not think that what my hon. Friend suggests is the way to deal with it.

    PRIME MINISTER (JOURNEYS ABROAD)
    Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Prime Minister how many official journeys abroad he has made since accepting the Queen's commission; and which countries he has visited.
    The Prime Minister: Seven, Sir, to the United States and Canada, to Germany, France, Italy, Austria and Rhodesia. Cm the Rhodesian visit I also called in at

    1331
    Cyprus, Kenya, Zambia, Nigeria, Ghana and Gibraltar.
    Mr. Griffiths: While appreciating the assistance of the Prime Minister in visiting Rhodesia, may I refer to his previous scripts referring to bridge-building in Vienna, and knocking hell out of the Americans? Can he put his finger on a single practical achievement, other than headlines?
    The Prime Minister: So far as bridge-building is concerned in Europe, it was not even attempted in the previous two or three years between E.F.T.A. and E.E.C. That is correct. This matter has been pushed further at the meeting at Copenhagen. But the hon. Gentleman will recognise the difficulties caused by dissension between the Six on these matters. With regard to the question of the Americans, this can be done when all our exporters are doing as well as the best ones.
    Mr. Lipton: Was not the information contained in my right hon. Friend's original reply already fairly well known? Why was it necessary to ask this question?

    OVERSPILL PROGRAMMES (MINSTERIAL ACTIVITIES)
    Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Prime Minister what arrangements are made to co-ordinate the activities of the Ministries of Health, Education, Transport and Housing and Local Government in those areas of rapid town expansion under the overspill programmes.
    The Prime Minister: Those necessary, Sir.
    Mr. Griffiths: Will the Prime Minister accept that in the expanding town of Haverhill in my constituency the provision of medical and social facilities, including shops and schools, is lagging far behind the build-up of population, and will he urge upon his right hon. Friends to try and achieve a much better balance in these town expansion programmes?
    The Prime Minister: I am well aware of the hon. Gentleman's concern. I have seen a report of his speech in the Haverhill Echo of 10th September. I thought that a lot of what he said was very much
    1332
    to the point. I have had the same problem in an expanding town in my own constituency. If he cannot get satisfaction on this question from the local authorities or the Minister of Housing, I hope that he will bring any evidence of lack of co-ordination to me.
    Mr. Deedes: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is really a problem here? We have no machinery comparable to the new town machinery for the rapid expansion of these towns which his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing has put in hand and, as a result, an overwhelming task is being laid on the shoulders of relatively small authorities.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. Having put almost that same question from those benches for some three years in the case of Kirby in my own constituency, which is a classic of this problem, I agree there is a problem, and that is what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is dealing with, and he must be the co-ordinating authority.

    POLARIS SUBMARINES (NUCLEAR WARHEADS)
    Mr. Blakerasked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied that all necessary steps are being taken to ensure that the nuclear warheads for Great Britain's Polaris submarines will be fully effective; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: For the reasons I explained in my statement in the House on 17th December last, it would not be possible under the partial test ban treaty to test the efficiency of the warhead system as a whole. As I explained to the House on 20th July, Her Majesty's Government considered there might be a case, purely on ground of economy of expensive materials, for repeating the earlier test, which was unsuccessful, of a component of the warhead. This test has now taken place and was sucessful.
    Mr. Blaker: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to economy of expensive materials. Will he repeat the assurance that he gave to the House in the last Session that any further tests on components will be carried out which are necessary for the purpose of effectiveness?
    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman did not hear me last time, I will

    1333
    certainly repeat it for him. He will be aware that so far as his economy question was concerned, there was a test undertaken a year earlier by the previous Government which, unfortunately, did not succeed. It was very expensive, and it did not succeed. It has been repeated, with success this time, and will lead to a considerable saving in cost. On the hon. Gentleman's other question, we shall do whatever is necessary to maintain what is needed for the purpose of an inter-nationalised deterrent.
    Mr. Paget: Supposing anyone were foolish enough to fire one of these, would it not be an unconvenanted blessing if it did not go off? Why should we try and avoid that?
    The Prime Minister: I think that raises rather wider questions than can be dealt with at Question Time. I think that we have been into some of the theology of the question as fully as the House would want over the last few years.

    MR. KOSYGIN (VISIT TO GREAT BRITAIN)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Prime Minister if the date for Mr. Kosygin's visit to Great Britain has now been fixed.
    The Prime Minister: Not yet, Sir.
    Mrs. Short: I am rather disappointed with my right hon. Friend's reply. Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on these benches and the majority of people in this country long passionately for progress on two aspects on which we are fully committed, namely, a nuclear-free Europe and a non-proliferation treaty? Will my right hon. Friend, therefore, do all in his power to assure Mr. Kosygin that he will be our most welcome visitor and that we on our part are very anxious to make progress?
    Mr. Speaker: Even hon. Ladies must not be too long in their questions.
    The Prime Minister: I am disappointed at my reply, too. But, as I have already told the House, I have been having exchanges with Mr. Kosygin now over a considerable period, and I spoke about it the other evening. The next step now is the visit of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to Moscow to see if we
    1334
    can get near enough to justify an exchange of visits, whether by Mr. Kosygin coming here or by my going to Moscow.

    RHODESIA
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister whether he will lay a White Paper setting forth his correspondence with Mr. Ian Smith and other documents relative to their efforts to achieve a settlement in Rhodesia.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the White Paper (Command 2807) which was laid before the House on 12th November.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: May I ask the Prime Minister why the last message in the Blue Book, for which we are grateful, was not given to the Prime Minister of Rhodesia in writing for the avoidance of dubiety, and whether the Prime Minister of Rhodesia knew that his telephone conversations were being monitored?
    The Prime Minister: I think I have done something rather unusual in publishing every exchange by the right hon. Gentleman, with his agreement, and myself. It would be obvious that in 150 pages someone would find something to complain about. There were very good reasons for not putting that in writing on the last night, and it was clear that, if we had, they had already taken their decision and it would not have made very much difference. As to the telephone conversations being monitored, on anything as important as that it was obviously important that a full record should be kept, just as a full record had been kept at every stage by both sides of our joint meetings so that, to use the hon. Gentleman's phrase, there could be no dubiety about what each of us said afterwards.
    Mr. Bostonasked the Prime Minister if he will issue an invitation to representative senior back-bench Members of Parliament, preferably Privy Councillors, to form a mission to Rhodesia as an aid in assessing developments on the spot.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir, not in this moment in time.
    Mr. Boston: Does the Prime Minister agree that such action would be useful,

    1335
    especially at a time when it is likely to become increasingly difficult to assess development, and will he keep the idea open for possible use at a later stage if he decides it may be useful?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. It is very much being kept open. I do not think that at this moment it would be right to take such action. I should remind the House that as long ago as last December I proposed to the then Rhodesian Government that there should be a mission of senior Members of all parties in the House for the purpose of trying to make progress with the outstanding difficulties, but he refused to have it at that time. But there may be a case for quite other reasons today and, at the right moment, I shall not be backward in putting the idea forward.
    Mr. Leadbitterasked the Prime Minister what progress has been made towards sending uncensored news to the people of Rhodesia; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister: The number of British Broadcasting Corporation shortwave broadcasts has been increased and urgent steps are in hand to enable a strong medium-wave signal, carrying the B.B.C. programmes, to be made available to listeners in Rhodesia.

    MENTALLY DEFICIENT CHILDREN (RESIDENTIAL HOMES)
    Mr. John Wellsasked the Prime Minister if he will list the Departments which have official responsibility in regard to residential homes for mentally deficient children.
    The Prime Minister: The Ministry of Health and the Scottish Home and Health Department; and, in the case of homes provided under the Children Act, 1948, the Home Office, and the Scottish Education Department.

    CROWN COMMISSIONERS
    Mr. Handingasked the Prime Minister whether he will introduce legislation to bring the Crown Commissioners within the control of a Department of State.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Handing: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there has been considerable complaint about the delays in dealing with correspondence and questions by the Crown Estates Commissioners, and it is only since a Question appeared on the Order Paper that action seems to have been taken by these people?
    The Prime Minister: I am aware of the delays, and my hon. Friend has been kind enough to send me some of the correspondence showing the tone adopted to a Member of Parliament by an agent to the Crown Commission. Certainly if any help is needed, my right hon. Friend and I will be prepared to take it up with the Crown Commission, but I do not know that legislation is the way to deal with it.

RHODESIA (H.M. GOVERNOR)
Mr. Thorpe[by Private Notice]asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about the purported dismissal of H.M. Governor in Rhodesia by the Smith regime in Salisbury.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Yes, Sir. The House will have seen with regret and noted with contempt the action the illegal regime have taken in purporting to replace the Governor by Mr. Dupont. I repeat that the Governor holds his office during Her Majesty's pleasure and can be removed only on Her Majesty's instructions.
As I warned earlier in the week, this is an act of treason.
Hon. Members will have noticed that in carrying through this illegal procedure the persons concerned appear to have been unable to secure the services of the Chief Justice or any other judge and had to use a justice of the peace.
The House, too, will have noticed the contemptible actions of the illegal authorities in the forms of pressure put on the Governor, Lady Gibbs and their loyal staff.
I would only add this on the question of this action. Hon. Members who know Sir Humphrey Gibbs, and who have had an opportunity of forming some impression of Mr. Dupont, will, in making the inevitable contrast, be able to measure the extent to which Rhodesia has been

1337
degraded and her people abused by the events of the past seven days.
One point I should perhaps add. The House will recall that, in last Friday's debate, the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir P. Agnew) intervened and suggested that the Governor's salary should be borne on the Consolidated Fund. I am most grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for this helpful suggestion, and I am sure the whole House will be ready to give effect to it if it proves to be the Governor's wish.
Mr. Thorpe: I thank the Prime Minister for that statement. Is he aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House will applaud the courage and dignity with which the Governor has continued to act as Her Majesty's sole representative in Rhodesia?
May I ask two questions? First, can the Prime Minister give some assurance that every effort will be made to make known the very important undertaking which he broadcast relating to accrued rights and pensions rights of civil servants and other Government officials who, like the Governor, and, indeed, his A.D.C., would wish to remain loyal to the Crown?
Secondly, as this latest act has indicated that nothing has yet caused Mr. Smith to pause in the path of treason, will the Prime Minister consider making a request to Lonrho, which is a British firm, that it should close the pipeline carrying oil from Beira to Umtali in Rhodesia?
The Prime Minister: First, may I say how very much I agree, as I am sure the House does, with the opening words of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. With regard to my broadcast to Rhodesia yesterday, we will do everything possible to see that it gets through. I have good reason to think it was heard in Rhodesia. I was speaking quite loudly, and all the reports are that the repeated broadcast by the B.B.C. did in fact get across.
With regard to the second point made by the hon. Gentleman, this raises some very much wider issues than we can discuss at this time, but the House will have been following with close interest, and perhaps some concern, the prob-
1338
lems which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been facing at the United Nations.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Will my right hon. Friend say what steps are being taken to give Her Majesty's Governor some de facto presence in Rhodesia?
The Prime Minister: The Governor is the legal Government in Rhodesia. As to any other question, we have already had a Question today about whether there should be a mission from this House, and all sorts of ideas are being considered at this time.
Mr. Heath: Is the Prime Minister aware that we on this side of the House would like to express our admiration for the courage and dignity of the Governor in the present circumstances, which we all feel must be becoming more and more difficult for him daily, and we would like to express the hope that he will be able to continue his representation for as long as it is humanly possible?
The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I think that the two words he chose "courage" and "dignity", are the two words that stand out in the minds of most of us in considering the way in which Sir Humphrey Gibbs has carried on in the face of this most intolerable pressure, and, of course, it is quite clear that conditions for him living there are becoming more difficult all the time.
Mr. Hastings: While endorsing what has been said about the Governor's courage, may I ask the Prime Minister to ensure that he does not exploit the personal courage of Sir Humphrey Gibbs [Interruption.]Is he aware, as I am sure he must be—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member has the right to express his opinions in this place.
Mr. Hastings: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. Is the Prime Minister aware, as I am sure he must be, as indeed the House must be, that Sir Humphrey Gibbs is neither a young man nor very fit?
The Prime Minister: Which is another reason why the hon. Gentleman might have thought twice before saying what he did. There is no question of exploiting

1339
Sir Humphrey Gibbs' personal courage, because that speaks for itself, but some hon. Gentlemen might consider how far remarks of that kind might be taken— that will not be censored—reported and exaggerated out of all relation to the hon. Gentleman's significance and then used by people in Rhodesia to suggest that this House is not united in the steps it is taking.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that we must move on.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Bowden): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 22ND NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Air Corporations Bill, and the Motion on the Social Science Research Council Order, 1965.
TUESDAY, 23RD NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 24TH NOVEMBER— Motions relating to Southern Rhodesia.
THURSDAY, 25TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill.
FRIDAY, 26TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Bill, and the remaining stages of the Teachers' Superannuation Bill.
MONDAY, 29TH NOVEMBER—The business proposed is the Motion on the Temporary Charges on Imports (Continuation) Order, and the remaining stages of the Housing (Slum Clearance Compensation) Bill.
Mr. Heath: With regard to Wednesday's business on Southern Rhodesia Orders in Council, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that we think it might be for the convenience of the House if the Constitution Order were to be taken first, the Orders on Commonwealth Preference and the
1340
Commonwealth Sugar Agreement taken second, and the remaining four Orders on Passports, Nationality, Commonwealth Immigration and Fugitive Offenders taken together as a separate group after that? We hope that that will be for the convenience of the Government and of the House.
Secondly, may I remind him of our request last week that we should have the delayed debate on foreign affairs at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Bowden: Yes, Sir. As I promised last week, we shall have a debate on foreign affairs as early as possible.
Subject to Mr. Speaker's approval, I think that the suggested grouping of the Orders would be for the general convenience of the House. We might talk about this through the usual channels, but I think this would be of advantage.
Mr. William Hamilton: With regard to Tuesday's business on the remaining stages of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether we shall have an opportunity on that occasion to debate in full the Commonwealth Immigration White Paper? I ask that because my right hon. Friend will recollect that, in reply to a Question on 4th November, the Prime Minister said that the House would most likely be debating this matter in the near future. If we cannot debate it when we are discussing the remaining stages of that Bill, will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that we shall be able to debate it on another and separate occasion?
Mr. Bowden: Under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill we are continuing Part I of the Commonwealth Immigration Act, 1962, and the First Schedule. This is pretty wide. It is not for me to say how the Chair will rule, but I think it will be wide enough for a general debate.
Sir A. V. Harvey: In view of the uncertainty of those employed in the aircraft industry, can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Plowden Report will be published and will be available?
Mr. Bowden: I cannot be definite about it. I shall speak to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation, but I know that he is trying to get it as soon as possible.
Mr. Atkinson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that on Wednesday of this week a critical Motion was tabled by the Opposition on the question of technology, when 11 hon. Members were called in the debate but only 10½ referred to technology? Can we assume that my right hon. Friend will not take this as meaning that this House is not desirous of debating technology? Hon. Members on this side of the House and the Minister of Technology are very anxious to have a debate on this subject. Can my right hon. Friend indicate when this will take place?
Mr. Bowden: The debate was on an Amendment to the Address in reply to the Gracious Speech. Although we were debating an Amendment speeches of a general character were in order, and in any case the Amendment dealt with both transport and technology. It is certainly true that the greater part of the time was taken up with transport. I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Technology would have been delighted to reply to a technology debate.
Mr. Iremonger: In view of the importance of maintaining the facilities for giving constituents access to their Members, and in view of the proposed mass lobbying next Thursday by the National Council for Peace in Vietnam—and no doubt for war in Africa at the same time—will the right hon. Gentleman find time to debate my Motion on the subject?
[That this House recognises the importance of arrangements made to give constituents in urgent need of the assistance of their Members access to them through the Central Lobby; deplores the abuse of these arrangements and the frustration of their purpose by groups organised as mass lobbies for propaganda purposes; and approves the wisdom of hon. Members who arrange to meet constituents for discussions on general matters of national importance at times when the Central Lobby is not subject to this abuse.]
Mr. Bowden: I have seen the hon. Member's Motion on the Order Paper. It is similar to a Motion which appeared on the Order Paper early in July. There is a problem when there is a great deal of mass lobbying. I have spoken to the Serjeant at Arms about it, and he will do his best to see that access by indivi-
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dual constituents coming here is maintained. But there is also a right to mass lobbying. It is a fine balance, but the Serjeant at Arms will do his best.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Housing Minister will be making his statement on council housing finance?
Mr. Bowden: Not without notice, but I shall certainly speak to my right hon. Friend about it.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: Will the right hon. Gentleman take the first opportunity of studying, with a view to appropriate action, the Motion which is tabled in my name and the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends concerning the conduct of the Prime Minister?
Mr. Bowden: I have not yet seen the Motion.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: As the prohibition on tobacco imports from Rhodesia does not come within the scope of Wednesday's business in the House and does not attract any automatic Parliamentary discussion or scrutiny by reason of the fact that it is an administrative exercise of the Board of Trade's import licensing powers, will the Leader of the House consider providing a day's debate, if possible on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House?
Mr. Bowden: No, Sir. I cannot promise to find time immediately. A similar situation arose in another place. It is true that no debate arises on this matter unless some action is taken. The suggestion in another place was that a Motion might be put down. If the Official Opposition have that in mind, we can probably arrange a Supply Day fairly quickly between now and Christmas.
Mr. Warbey: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the promised debate on foreign affairs is particularly urgent now in the light of the new revelations in the United States about who was really to blame for the breakdown in the peace negotiations over Vietnam?
Mr. Bowden: I am aware of the urgency of it. Last week I promised to try to do this as soon as possible before Christmas. It is important at this stage in the Session, immediately after the

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Queen's Speech, to get on with legislation and to get some work into Committees.
Mr. Dance: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are several Motions on the Order Paper relating to the recent outrageous behaviour of the B.B.C.? In view of the great public indignation in the matter, will he give a positive assurance that he will provide time to debate this all-important subject?
Mr. Bowden: No, Sir. I cannot promise time to debate it at all. Successive Governments have made it clear from time to time that there is no desire to interfere with the programming independence of the B.B.C.
Mrs. Joyce Butler: In view of the number of outstanding points and unanswered questions in the Challoner case, which are of considerable public importance and which should be cleared up in the interests of better relations between the police and the public, will my right hon. Friend try to find time for a debate on the issues arising from the Challoner affair as soon as possible?
Mr. Bowden: I am sorry but I cannot promise time. But it would be a suitable matter for a half-hour Adjournment, or perhaps one of the half-day Adjournments.
Mr. Buck: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether we can expect over the next week a statement from the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health concerning the revised hospital plan? Is he aware that it is surprising to many hon. Members that within 12 months the Government can prepare a National Plan but cannot prepare a hospital plan?
Mr. Bowden: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will, no doubt, note the hon. Member's words.
Mr. Ogden: May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the Fifth Report of the Select Committee on Procedure concerning the voting arrangements for sick Members and ask him to give further consideration to the matter and perhaps indicate whether we can have an opportunity of discussing it?
Mr. Bowden: I have read the Report with interest, but in the first place we
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must have some discussions through the usual channels.
Mr. William Yates: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman about his intentions concerning the foreign affairs debate? Has he seen two Motions on the Order Paper standing in my name, one concerning the United Nations and the Middle East,
[That this House expresses its concern at the circumstances in which the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs after his goodwill tour of the Middle East should have felt obliged to read out a Foreign Office Zionist brief which he should have known would cause offence to the Arab States, reminds him and Her Majesty's Government that the British people have no desire whatever to have another Suez war as Israel's secret ally and that Great Britain's international role both east and west of Suez is to maintain peace in support of the United Nations and the United Nations peacekeeping missions, and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to support the politicians in Israel who wish to live at peace and reduce tension with their Arab neighbours and not the international Zionist conspirators, who murdered the United Nations mediator Count Bernadotte and who, with wealthy disloyal elements in Great Britain, seek to involve this country in race-hate between Arabs and Jews as an instrument of Zionist aggression in the Middle East.]
and the other concerning gun-running in Arabia,
[That this House condemns without reserve the policies of Her Majesty's Government in Aden and South-West Arabia of gun-running to Arabia and of defying the United Nations over Aden, which has resulted in the deaths of the Speaker of the Federal Parliament and of British soldiers and civilians.]
Will he consider arranging for a two-day debate on international affairs, because of Her Majesty's Government's protection of slavery in Muscat and the illegal occupation of the Oman by British Forces?
Mr. Bowden: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that Her Majesty's Government have no part in gun-running in Southern Arabia or anywhere else. If he wishes, this matter could be raised when we reach the foreign affairs debate. I

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want to deal with the last part of his question concerning gun-running. If he suggests that as a result of Her Majesty's Government's action the Speaker of the Federation was murdered, I can only say that my understanding of the position, from information that I have been given, is that the so-called National Liberal Front was responsible.
Mr. Yates rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member has no fewer and no more rights than any other hon. Member.
Mr. Yates: On a point of order. I do not think that the Leader of the House heard what I said. I asked for a two-day debate.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member has the right to put a question and the Leader of the House has the right to answer in whatever way he chooses.
Mr. Yates: The Leader of the House clearly did not hear the question I put to him. I asked whether he should have a one-day debate or a two-day debate on foreign affairs—
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is a matter of argument. I want to emphasise to the hon. Member that he is one of 630 Members seeking each a fair share of question time.
Mr. Kershaw: With further reference to the foreign affairs debate, is it the Government's intention that it should be confined to foreign affairs, or will defence questions also be relevant? If so, would it not be better to have a separate day for defence questions in view of the number of questions arising in that sphere at the present time?
Mr. Bowden: The intention at the moment is that it should be a foreign affairs debate. Immediately after Christmas we shall be having a defence debate, and there may be one or two Bills before Christmas on which this question could easily arise.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Defence Review is likely to be published before the end of this year? We shall wish to see it before we debate it in the early part of next year.
Mr. Bowden: I cannot give a date, but it will be published as soon as possible.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: In view of the many vitally important crises in the world at present, may I support the proposal that there should be a two-day debate on foreign affairs and ask that it should be divided, with some subjects being taken on one day and some on the other?
Mr. Bowden: If that is for the convenience of the House, we might do it. It is usual with a two-day foreign affairs debate to divide the time as between one day for the Government and one day for the Opposition, but we might have talks through the usual channels about dividing the debate into subjects.
Mr. Onslow: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when the House will have an opportunity to debate the White Paper on the work of the Ministry of Overseas Development, which was published in August?
Mr. Bowden: I cannot say at the moment.
Mr. Ioan L. Evans: Does my right hon. Friend realise that there is support on this side of the House for a debate on defence, not only because the Government are having a Defence Review, but because of the interesting proposal made by the Opposition spokesman on defence, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell)?
Mr. Bowden: I do not know that there is a great deal of interest in the subject, but I hope that there will be opportunities before Christmas. It may not arise on the Motion for the Adjournment or on the Defence Review; it may arise as a result of a Bill.

INNER LONDON EDUCATION AUTHORITY
The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Anthony Crosland): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement about the Inner London Education Authority.
The London Government Act transferred to this Authority responsibility for education and the Youth Employment Service in the Inner London area on a

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provisional basis. The Act imposed upon me an obligation to carry out a review of the arrangements relating to education and to lay a report before Parliament not later than 31st March, 1970. A corresponding obligation in relation to the Youth Employment Service was imposed on my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
The Government have been examining these arrangements. The Education Service and the Youth Employment Service of the I.L.E.A. are soundly organised and efficiently administered. The Government are convinced that any disruption or fragmentation of these services would be bound to lead to a lowering of standards. It appears essential, in the interests of sound local government, to preserve the long-established unified service of educational administration in the London area, and hence to confirm the position of the I.L.E.A.
The Government have therefore decided to introduce legislation giving permanent effect to those provisions of the London Government Act, 1963, which transfer to the I.L.E.A. the responsibility for education and the Youth Employment Service in London. The legislation will repeal those provisions of the Act which require my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and myself to carry out a review of the arrangements made by the Act and to report on them to Parliament.
The Government wish to make their intention clear now, in advance of legislation, because there is evidence of a growing feeling of insecurity amongst teachers and other staff employed by the Authority. Any review would take a long time to complete, and would inevitably have an unsettling effect. This uncertainty about the future must be removed, and the Authority itself must be given confidence to embark on long-term plans without the threat of further upheaval.
Sir E. Boyle: Could the right hon. Gentleman say, first, how soon he proposes to introduce this legislation? Secondly, would he agree that, while the balance of educational advantage in the future may very probably lie in retaining a single local education authority for Inner London—incidentally, the importance which we attached to educa-
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tion in Inner London was shown by the fact that I myself approved £4 million-worth of school improvement projects for this Authority, both for 1965–66 and also for 1966–67—would the right hon. Gentleman not also agree that the legitimate interests and wishes of the London boroughs should also be considered—over, for example, such matters as the appointment of school managers? This decision of the Government will come as a real shock to the London boroughs. Have they been consulted, and would it not have been better at least to have given them a full opportunity of stating their views before reaching this decision and announcing it to the House?
Mr. Crosland: I can give no definite assurance about the date on which legislation will be introduced. On the more general point which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, the position is that London has had a unified education service since 1870. Everybody admits that the old L.C.C. and the present I.L.E.A. are a first-class education authority, perhaps the most distinguished in the world. Therefore, no Government, of whatever party, would change the present situation when it came to 1970. That being so, it seems realistic, in order to eliminate uncertainty among the teaching staff, to take a decision now that there will not be a review under the Act.
Mr. Lubbock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this promised legislation gives effect to a demand which we made at the time of the London Government Bill? Would he draw it to the attention of his right hon. Friend that precisely the same arguments that he has used for the preservation of the I.L.E.A. would have applied to the Children's Service in Greater London? It is a matter of regret to us that the Government have not been able to give effect to that pledge as well as to this one.
Mr. Crosland: That demand during the passage of the Bill was hardly confined to the Liberal Party, but came from some of my hon. Friends as well. On the subject of the Children's Services, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government made a long statement on this on 2nd February and he was questioned by the hon. Member. I have nothing to add to what he then said.
Mr. Strauss: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will give great satisfaction not only to all the teaching profession in London, but to thousands of parents of school children who were getting very worried about the situation?
Mr. Iremonger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this statement will be taken by many London boroughs as a further indication of the suspected determination of the Government to wreck the whole principle of the 1963 London Government Act, and that the policy of the Government in trying to reimpose the old and discredited L.C.C. structure does not command the confidence of the public? Will he consider this again and, especially, ask his right hon. Friend not to apply this to the housing provisions of the Act?
Mr. Crosland: The hon. Member's judgment about what commands the confidence of the public seems to have been heavily defied by the results of elections in the London area last May. On his question about breaking up the principles of the 1963 Act, and without commenting on this, I happen to take a different view from that of the hon. Gentleman. That is not the point here. This decision does not wreck the principles of the Act, as was made clear by the then Parliamentary Secretary in replying to debates on Amendments as the Bill was going through the House.
Mr. Lipton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the imaginary fears expressed by hon. Members opposite have no real relevance to the existing situation, and that, so far from any opposition to the statement which he has made being forthcoming, it will be almost unanimously welcomed by all the boroughs and by anyone who knows anything at all about the work of the I.L.E.A. during the last few months?
Sir E. Boyle: Could the right hon. Gentleman answer my point about con-
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sultation and about giving the boroughs the opportunity of expressing their views? Is it not true that, irrespective of the main question about maintaining this area under a single education authority, the boroughs have certain legitimate interests here and that such issues as the appointment of school managers could have been profitably considered when the projected review took place?
Mr. Crosland: No, Sir. This is one of the cases in which the whole subject has been sufficiently studied and every argument which could be used by one side or the other has been exhaustively used over the last two or three years, with first the Royal Commission and then the detailed debate on the Clauses in the London Government Bill when it was going through the House. I believe that this is a case in which every argument is known and that now one must take a decision one way or another.
Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Can I press the right hon. Gentleman to give more serious consideration to the point put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle), particularly in view of the fact that, while it is true that this authority historically has a great reputation as an education authority, nevertheless, there has been creeping in in recent years a certain pragmatic intolerance on the part of the authority in its treatment of the teachers?
Mr. Crosland: This is not true, and it is not the view of the teachers. The people most strongly in favour of the decision I have announced are precisely the London teachers, from whom very strong representations have been received, as hon. Members opposite know, in favour of the course which we have decided on.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have to protect the business of the House. We must proceed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.58 p.m.
  The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond)The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond) rose—
  Captain Walter Elliot: On a point of order. In the Explanatory Memorandum at the beginning of the Bill, the last paragraph refers to the Armed Forces. Would it be in order for those hon. Members who are fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, to speak to a certain extent about the Armed Forces, as long as it is related to the public services as covered by the Bill?
  Mr. Speaker: Perhaps I had better quote the classic Ruling. If I may speak personally, I rule with regret, because in the past I was deeply interested in the kind of question which the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise in this debate. However, if he turns to the OFFICIAL REPORT for 9th November, 1962, he will find that Mr. Speaker said:
  "I think that a general comparison between Service pensions and civil pensions is permissible. But I do not think that matters of detail relating to Service pensions are in order."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th November, 1962: Vol. 666, c. 1387.]
  I know that hon. Members will have that aspect of it—the question of Service pensions—in mind, but they must find some other opportunity of debating the whole issue of Service pensions.
  Mr. Enoch Powell: Further to that point of order. I am sure that it will be understood that the terms of the Royal Warrant, which covers Service pensions, customarily follow closely the provisions of the Bill, and, I understand, will do so in this case. Therefore, I would respectfully assume that your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, does not mean that the policy embodied in the Bill, which will also be applied to Service pensions, cannot be debated.
  Mr. Speaker: The principle itself certainly can be debated but how far they raise what they are interested in in this debate must depend on the ingenuity of
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  hon. Members, although I will, of course, rule out of order anything that really is out of order. I imagine that there will be an opportunity—although, of course, I cannot foresee these things —of debating the issues dealt with in the Royal Warrant in due course.
  Mr. Diamond: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is an important Bill. It relieves human hardship, it is an exercise in the all-important sphere of social priorities, it affects more than 700,000 people and those who live with them, it is costly— more costly than any of the similar Measures which have been introduced on five previous occasions since the war— and it has been given pride of place in the Government's legislative programme. It is therefore with pleasure and with high hopes that I may succeed in my Motion that I move the Second Reading of the Bill.
  I will begin by explaining the cause of the hardship to which I referred. Public service pensions are normally related to length of service and pay at retirement. They carry no built-in right or promise of increase after retirement, but when there has been a marked fall in the value of money causing hardship to pensioners the Government, as a good employer, seek the authority of Parliament to pay increases to alleviate this hardship. The last occasion on which this problem was tackled was the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962. We now find ourselves once more faced with this familiar situation.
  Having stated the problem, I will now describe the background to the solution which the Government propose. We are responsible for the management of the public services and are, therefore, concerned to see that public service pensioners do not, as a result of inflation, suffer hardship—whether in absolute terms, if their pensions will no longer buy the necessities of life—or relative hardship, if their pensions will no longer give them the standard of living which they had earned through their years of service and to which they had reasonably looked forward when they retired.
  In considering hardship, we must necessarily take into account the total retirement income which public service pensioners derive from public funds. The

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  great majority of public service pensioners are drawing not only their occupational pension but also a National Insurance pension which has benefited from many increases, the last and most generous of which was in April of this year.
  In addition to our responsibility for the management of the public services, we have a wider responsibility to the general body of taxpayers and ratepayers —who, after all, foot the bill—and for the economic situation as a whole. The increases in the Bill represent, in the Government's judgment, the fairest possible treatment of public service pensioners and also the most that the country can be asked to afford at a time when there is great need for all sections of the community to moderate their claims on the nation's economic resources.
  While taking measures to alleviate the effect of past inflation, the Government have been conscious of the anxiety of many pensioners about the effect which future inflation may have on the pensions which they now enjoy and which will be increased by this Measure. There are two answers to this anxiety. The first is the prices and incomes policy which is being vigorously pursued by my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State. Many Governments have paid lip-service to the fight against inflation, but the efforts of my right hon. Friend give us a real new chance to achieve price stability—and success will bring incalculable benefits to everyone in this country; above all to pensioners and others living on small fixed incomes.
  The second answer relates to the radical review of the social security system which is being carried out by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. This, when complete, will provide us for the first time with a rational framework within which we can build a constructive pensions policy in both the public and private sectors.
  It follows, therefore, that in this Measure the Government have not attempted to set a definitive pattern for the future. I know that many hon. Members feel, and have stressed in earlier debates, that the sort of Pensions (Increase) Bill which we have seen in recent years is not a satisfactory solution to the long-term problem. This Bill, however, is essentially a holding Measure
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  awaiting the outcome of the fundamental review of social security. In form, it follows closely the pattern of the 1959 and 1962 Measures, for in a holding Measure of this sort it would not be appropriate to introduce piecemeal alterations and innovations in the basic structure. It therefore applies the existing precedents and principles in a fair and, indeed, generous way and it makes some worth-while improvements on the fringe. I hope that the House will accept it as such, within its limited terms of reference, until the Government can introduce the positive new policies on which they are now working.
  As I said, the number of pensioners affected is more than 700,000. To be more precise, it is about 710,000. There are 236,000 civil servants, 98,500 teachers, 125,000 local government officers and the police, fire services, National Health Service, former civil servants in India, Pakistan and Burma and others; totalling in all 574,200 pensioners. As hon. Members are aware, the pensions of the Armed Forces of the Crown are governed by Instruments issued under the Royal Prerogative. Their position has been most seriously considered and the Prerogative Instruments will give corresponding increases to about 125,000 pensioners, including former members of the Armed Forces of India, Pakistan and Burma. A further 9,750 overseas pensioners will receive increases under Clause 5, making a total of about 710,000.
  It is probably unnecessary for me to add that the description "public service pensioners" does not, for these purposes, include the pensions of employees in the nationalised industries any more than it includes the employees of private firms. The nationalised industries have full powers to make their own arrangements for pensions and increases in pensions.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Bill is of great indirect interest to the nationalised industries in view of the comparable increases which they usually provide in relation to this type of Measure?
  Mr. Diamond: The Bill is of great interest to the public as a whole.
  The main provisions of the Bill appear in Clause 1. All public service pensions

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  are to be increased in accordance with a percentage scale which rises from 2 per cent. to 16 per cent. depending on when the pension began. Where these pensions have already benefited under previous Pensions (Increase) Acts the percentage is applied to the pension as already increased.
  I will give two examples of how this works. Consider a local government officer in the general division who retired in 1960 after a short career of 20 years. He might well have had a pension of £192, increased under the 1962 Act to £200. That is increased under this Bill by a further £16—namely, by 8 per cent.—on the increased pension of £200. Now consider a postman who retired in 1953 after 40 years' service. Supposing that his pension amounted to £190, already increased to £258. Under this Bill he will get a further increase of 16 per cent. on that higher figure, or £41.
  Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: If the postman had retired in 1950 he would then have a certain percentage increase, up to whatever the date might be. On that he then gets a 16 per cent. increase, from 1957, under this Measure. Does not that mean that the postman who retired in 1950 will not get the same amount of increase as another postman who retired in 1957?
  Mr. Diamond: No. The answer to the hon. Member's difficulty is that under certain of the previous Bills there was, as it were, a levelling up of pensions as between 1950 and 1957. We therefore, as it were, got everyone on an equal basis in 1957, which means that it is not necessary to go back beyond that date to fulfil the very purpose which the hon. Member wants fulfilling.
  The Act of 1962, which provided a maximum increase of 12 per cent., gave, however, an additional flat-rate increase to pensioners over 70. Instead of repeating this provision, we have decided that a higher maximum percentage increase of 16 per cent. is to be preferred, for the problem with which we are dealing in this Bill is the problem of past inflation; and the amount of that depends on the date of retirement rather than on the age of the pensioner. A man of 70 may only have been retired for five years, whereas a pensioner of 60 might well find him-
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  self faced with the cumulative effect of 15 years' inflation, or even longer.
  Since there has been a mistaken report in a leading national newspaper, I want to make it absolutely clear that those over 70 will benefit under the provisions of the Bill in exactly the same way as those under 70. Moreover, the percentage increase will be calculated on the existing pension—including, of course, the 1962 flat-rate increase—so that a further benefit will accrue to the over-seventies; namely, the percentage addition to the flat-rate increase. There is certainly no question at all of their suffering in this Bill because of the special provisions in the last Measure. We are not removing benefits; we are adding a high-percentage increase to an existing flat-rate increase.
  Perhaps I might now give some examples of the total effect of the increases under this Bill. I must take them together with increases under earlier Acts and improvements in National Insurance. All these increases, taken together, mean that for most public service pensioners the real value of their total pension income has not merely been retained but increased over the years. The hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine) referred to a pensioner in 1950. Since December 1950, the cost of living has risen by 75 per cent. By comparison, married civil servants with 40 years' service who retired at that time will now get percentage increases in total pension income as follows—and I remind the House that we are comparing these with an increase in the cost of living of 75 per cent.
  The percentage increase for a postman will be 124 per cent.; for a clerical officer, 120 per cent.; for a higher executive officer, 100 per cent. Even for an assistant secretary the increase is one of 67 per cent. If we now take retirements in December 1956, since when the increase in the Retail Price Index has been 28½ per cent., the corresponding figures are: postman—65 per cent.; clerical officer—59 per cent.; higher executive officer—49 per cent.; assistant secretary—40 per cent.
  In fact, total pension income has failed to keep pace with the rise in the Retail Price Index only for senior officers—that is, assistant secretaries and upwards—

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  who retired before 1952, and, to a very limited extent, for some of those in various ranks above the level of clerical officer who have retired since 1960. The situation is substantially the same in all the other public services. I therefore think that we can view the effect of these combined proposals with some measure of satisfaction.
  Mr. Norman Cole: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to agree that although this increase of pensions over the years has more than kept pace with the 75 per cent. increase in the cost of living, it is no more than happens to the ordinary worker, whose affluence has increased in that period, and the same should apply to Civil Service pensioners.
  Mr. Diamond: I am only drawing attention to what I think the House would want to know; that is to say, the extent to which we, as a good employer, think it right to go beyond our legal obligation and to add to the fixed pensions of those who retire after having served with the public service so as to take account of the fall in the value of money. I am not referring to any aspect of the matter other than that at the present time. I thought it right to give the House the full figures, so that everyone could see that, with minor exceptions, referring mainly to those in the higher pension categories, the House is more than carrying out its obligation to see that the purchasing power of pensions has more than kept up with the purchasing power of the £.
  Dr. Reginald Bennett: The Chief Secretary has said that he has kept to the legal obligation to make sure that the purchasing power of the pension keeps pace with the inflationary devaluation of money. This seems clear from what he said, but do we gather from this that he is doing nothing in this Bill to bring up the already inadequate lower levels of earlier years to some comparability with those of later categories?
  Mr. Diamond: The answer must be the arithmetic of the figures I have already given. If we were concerned only to keep level with the purchasing power of the £ there would be no need to give, for example, the postman—who has suffered a fall in the value of his money
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  since he started to be a pensioner of 28½ per cent.—an increase of 65 per cent., more than double the fall, or to give to the clerical officer an increase of 59 per cent. There is a substantial margin in those figures which the hon. Gentleman could allocate to a variety of other good reasons which no doubt his Government had in mind and this Government have in mind.
  Perhaps, therefore, I could go on to the minor provisions—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Perhaps I can help the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown). If he seeks to intervene, it is not enough for him to stand. He must say something which indicates to his right hon. Friend that he wishes to intervene.
  Mr. Hugh D. Brown: With your permission, Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman permission to intervene.
  Mr. Diamond: I rise as a token, Mr. Speaker, and sit down immediately.
  Mr. Brown: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. He has given so many figures that it is difficult to follow them all, but in his comparison of the cost of living since 1950 he gave a figure of 124 per cent. for the postman. Does that assume that it was flat rate, but included the National Insurance pension increases as well? If so, does it not make it slightly deceitful to put it forward in that way, as many in 1950 would not be in receipt of the retirement pension?
  Mr. Diamond: I do not think that it is deceitful in even a minimal sense, because I made it clear in at least two precise phrases that the income we are talking about is total income—pension income from both occupation and National Insurance. As I made clear in my opening remarks, we are dealing with the problem of hardship, not with a legal liability. In considering the extent of hardship, one must have regard to a retired person's total retirement income. I therefore think that it is inevitable that one must take account of the figures I have given to my hon. Friend.
  I wish to turn to some of the minor provisions to be found in subsequent Clauses of the Bill.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Before my right hon Friend leaves that point, will he say if for Service pensioners the same principle will apply? Will they be given at least the purchasing power at the date of commencement under the Prerogative Instruments?
  Mr. Diamond: Yes, the answer in principle—I do not go into detail—is that the same considerations, we trust, will have the same effect under the Prerogative Instruments.
  Clause 2 refers to the calculation of pensions increases for public servants who have been re-employed after retirement so that they earn further pension for additional service. Under the Pensions (Increase) Acts the percentage increase to be granted always depends on the date on which the pension began. In the case of re-employment, the pension is at present deemed to have begun at the date of final retirement. This has caused anomalies for the additional service has often produced no effective enhancement in pension as compared with what would have accrued to the officer if he had merely remained in retirement. Accordingly, in those cases Clause 2 throws back the date on which the pension is deemed to have begun to the earlier retirement. In this way account is taken both of additional years of service and of increases in the cost of living.
  Clause 3 deals with retired public servants who were superannuated under special schemes, such as the Federated Superannauation System for Universities and the Federated Superannuation Scheme for Nurses and Hospital Officers. These schemes are not directly run by the employer, but contributions are paid during service to an insurance company or similar body, which is responsible for paying the superannuation benefit on eventual retirement. Since 1946 benefits corresponding to those in the Pensions Increase Acts have been available to civil servants superannuated under F.S.S.U. No powers have however previously been taken to permit the payments of increases to ex-employees of other public services who have been superannuated under such schemes. We think it right to cover those omitted, especially nurses superannuated under the Federated Superannuation Scheme for Nurses and Hospital Officers.
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  Clause 4 enables certain overseas pensioners to qualify for pension supplements. It dispenses with a technical restriction relating to the place of payment and also treats employment by local government bodies, or bodies under the auspices of the United Nations, as equivalent to employment by a national Government.
  The Bill does not attempt to introduce any wholly new method of dealing with public service pensions because this is not the time to do so. I recognise that the view is widely held that there is need for some change. But what the new system should be can be decided only after a full review and in its proper context. It would be a mistake to introduce piecemeal changes, before the underlying principles had been thrashed out and a long-term policy established. For these reasons the Government do not think that this would be the right time for them to undertake that public service pensions will be automatically reviewed at fixed periods or that they should be automatically adjusted, for example, in accordance with some index.
  For the same reasons this is not the time to deal with the problem of parity, especially when it is realised that for most pensioners the Bill, taken in conjunction with this Government's increase in National Insurance and the other measures which have helped them over the years, will ensure that total pension income will more than match the increase in the cost of living since retirement. It is of course true that some of the oldest public service pensioners who are not eligible for the National Insurance retirement pension are not well off, but their problem is a general one which cannot be dealt with within the scope of a public service Pensions (Increase) Bill. Within the sums available for public service pension increases, I think the best possible deployment of the resources has been made to help those most in need.
  The cost of the proposals in the Bill is estimated at £19½ million in the first full year, of which about £5 million falls on the local rates and the balance on the Exchequer. In addition, the Exchequer has to bear the cost of the pensions increases given under the Royal Warrant amounting to an additional £5½ million. In round figures, therefore, the total cost to the Exchequer is some £20 million and to the local authorities some £5 million; an overall figure of £25 million.

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  This contrasts with the figure of about £22 million for the Act of 1962 and represents the most expensive measure of pensions increases for public servants that has ever been recommended to this House.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned a figure of £25 million. I am looking at the Financial Memorandum where figures are given of £18·2 million plus £5·5 million for the Prerogative Instruments outside the Bill. Adding those two together I get £23·7 million, not £25 million.
  Mr. Diamond: If the hon. Member looks further, I think he will find £1·4 million which I do not think he has taken into account.
  Mr. Lubbock: I am sorry.
  Mr. Diamond: In view of their very great incerest, the local authority associations and the Greater London Council have been fully consulted in confidence about the proposals in the Bill. They have raised some points of detail, but are in general agreement with our proposals.
  I have attempted to describe, as shortly as is consistent with clarity, the background to this Bill, its main and some of its minor provisions, and its effect on those concerned. I have attempted to show why the Government's proposals are appropriate in present circumstances and fully as generous as our circumstances will permit, for we must hold a reasonable balance between the requirements of our citizens as public service pensioners and the extra demands made on our citizens as taxpayers. It only remains for me to tell the House when the new rates of pension will take effect. We are having our Second Reading only a little over a week after the Bill was published; and the Government, with the co-operation of the House, hope to keep up this brisk pace with a Bill which means so much to so many pensioners, and to secure the Royal Assent before Christmas.
  If we succeed in this, pensions will be payable at the increased rate with effect from 1st January, 1966. Many pensions are paid by the Paymaster-General's Office—these include most but not all pensions for Civil Service, those of the National Health Service and teachers'
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  pensions. These pensions are paid monthly or quarterly in a cycle which extends over the whole period. For these services the Paymaster-General's Office plans to pay the increase on the pensioner's first normal pay date after 10th January, and this payment will include the arrears of increase back to 1st January. There will be a proportion of more difficult cases, mainly of pensions falling to be re-assessed under Clause 2 of the Bill, where final adjustment of the pension to the current rate will take some time. In such cases the Paymaster-General's Office will pay the straightforward percentage increase according to the timetable which I have described, and any necessary further improvement— of course with arrears back to the 1st January—will be paid as soon as possible afterwards.
  I shall listen with the greatest cafe to points made in the debate and my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary, if he has the exquisite pleasure of catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, will be eager to reply to them at the end. I have the happiest recollections of the support which the House was good enough to give me when I introduced a similar measure providing for the pensions of Members of Parliament. Although neither I nor my hon. and learned Friend would claim that we have never been associated with a Measure which had a small element of controversiality in it, I hope, nevertheless, that this Bill will be regarded as the kind of Bill which at the end of the day the House will feel ready to speed on its way.
  4.29 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Walker: I wonder if I may be permitted to express at the beginning of my speech a particular regret at the absence from this year's debate of two very distinguished Members of the House who took part in previous public service pension debates. I refer, first, to the late noble Lord the former right hon. Member for South Shields, who took a very active part in past debates upon this subject and who was always listened to in the House for his very fine and great human qualities. I think that the whole House will miss his contribution to this House.
  I refer, secondly, if I may be permitted to say so, Mr. Speaker, to the absence of

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  yourself from this debate, for I do not think that anybody played a greater part in these debates over the years than yourself. I should think it is probably true to say that of the many people who took great pleasure in your becoming Mr. Speaker those connected with the public service pensioners were probably amongst those who had the greatest joy.
  We welcome the Bill. It will bring some relief to the anxiety which has been expressed in recent months by public service pensioners, many of whom have naturally been alarmed at the effect upon their pensions of the rise in the cost of living which has taken place during the last 12 months. [HON. MEMBERS: "And before that."] And before, but never at such a pace as has taken place during the last 12 months. The rate has again been the rate of the 1945–51 Government, and naturally there has been considerable concern.
  I was interested in the manner in which the Chief Secretary to the Treasury defended the Bill as not being a Bill bringing in any basic reform on the question of public service pensions because of the inquiry which was being conducted by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. I think that this will disappoint many public service pensioners, because many of us will remember the vigorous speeches of the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) on this subject in past debates. It was made very clear in the debates upon the 1962 Act that the Labour Party was ready with many reforms in mind, poised ready to put them into action. If it had been stated at the General Election that a year after a Labour Government came to power they would introduce a public service pensions Bill without any major reform being brought about in it in the general structure of public service pensions, this would have been greeted with some surprise. Yet this is what has happened. One remembers those phrases of the right hon. Member for Sowerby, when he said that he hoped that this would be the last of such public service pension Bills. This Bill is very much a replica—
  Mr. Diamond: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he has referred to the speech made by my right hon.
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  Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), who may feel a little reticent at the moment sitting on the Front Bench. Will the hon. Gentleman go on to read towards the end of the speech which my right hon. Friend made on the very occasion he is referring to? The hon. Gentleman will find that my right hon. Friend said in the most explicit terms—I am not quoting the exact words —" But, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that there will be another such Bill". He was right.
  Mr. Walker: Yes, the right hon. Gentleman did say that, but from all that had gone before one concluded that the Bill which would come in next would be a Bill containing proposals for the reform of the structure of public service pensions. The only other explanation I can think of is that the right hon. Gentleman had no confidence that a Labour Government would be returned. The fact is that no reform appears in this Bill.
  Therefore, I should like to make it clear from the commencement of my speech that we on this side of the House regret this and we undertake that, as soon as we obtain power again, we will introduce a number of basic reforms as regards public service pensions. I want to outline those, because they are matters which we naturally regret are not contained in this Bill.
  First, we would ensure that pensions increases apply to people at the age of 55 and not as at present, at the age of 60. There are many members of the Armed Forces, the police and the fire service who have to retire in their forties and fifties. These people obtain no benefit from public service pension increases until they reach the age of 60. We consider this to be wrong, particularly as some of those retiring in their early fifties find it very difficult to obtain remunerative employment in those later years. We therefore undertake to ensure that those pensioners will enjoy the increase provided by Bills such as this at the age of 55, instead of at the age of 60.
  Secondly, we will bring all pension rates up to the level of those who retired in 1956. Whereas all those pensioners who have retired since 1956 have enjoyed increases under the various Pension (Increase) Bills which have enabled the

  1365
  purchasing power of their pensions to be maintained, for those who retired prior to 1956 the purchasing power of some of their pensions is in some cases considerably less as a result of the inflation in the years in between. I recognise that certain pensioners are already doing better than are the pensioners who retired in 1956, as a result of the increases which have been given in past Bills. Where they are obtaining better pensions, obviously those will remain; but for those obtaining lower pensions than those who retired in 1956 we undertake to ensure that all pensioners will at least be at that level.
  Thirdly, we would introduce the appropriate legislation to ensure that public service pensions were reviewed at regular intervals, and we envisage certainly a maximum of three years between such reviews.
  I recognise that there are certain arguments for and against this proposal. I also recognise that when this was last discussed it was a proposal to which we, then the Government, stated some of the objections. However, in the general examination which has taken place within our party and within the policy committees on this subject we have now come to the conclusion that the weight of advantages are in having a regular review and thus avoiding the sort of clamour and pressure that have to be created, somewhat to the embarrassment of many public service pensioners, to ensure that a suitable Bill is introduced.
  Mr. Lubbock: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that on the occasion of the last Pensions (Increase) Bill this suggestion was made by my noble Friend, Lord Wade, and then rejected by the Conservative Front Bench?
  Mr. Walker: If the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) had been listening, he would have heard me state quite clearly that during the debate on that Bill that was the case. I hope that if the hon. Member for Orpington makes suitably attractive proposals himself, as I am sure he will do, he, too, will find a place in the House of Lords in the future and obtain the rewards of that House.
  Mr. Lubbock: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again.
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  He just neglected, I am sure out of inadvertence, to give the credit to my noble Friend, Lord Wade.
  Mr. Walker: This is a suggestion which has been made on all sides of the House at various times. Whilst I can understand in the present political climate the necessity for the Liberal Party to claim anything they had said in the past, it should be appreciated that this subject is one on which views have been genuinely expressed on all sides of the House.
  These three reforms—first, bringing down the age to 55 for those who benefit by these Bills; secondly, putting all people at least upon the basis of those retiring in 1956; and, thirdly, ensuring that a regular review is made of public service pensions—will, I believe, in total make a considerable contribution to improving the general structure of the public service pension position. I turn to the detail of the Bill.
  Mr. Diamond: I have carefully followed everything the hon. Gentleman has said. He has described three major reforms which he proposes. Would he be good enough to tell the House now —I am sure he has gone into this most carefully—what the cost of those reforms would be? When he replies, would he fit his reply into the context of the remarks of his right hon. Friend who made a speech at Glasgow, I think it was, about the Conservative Party's attitude to taxation?
  Mr. Walker: To go into the Conservative Party's attitude on taxation would obviously be too wide a subject for this debate, as the Chief Secretary well knows. If the Government would like to give time for a debate on the whole question of levels of taxation—
  Mr. Diamond: I ask for the cost.
  Mr. Walker: The cost of these proposals would naturally vary with the position obtaining at the time when they were promulgated. There are many things which have been done by the Government which I would certainly consider to be of less importance than the basic reforms we suggest here. I believe that the cost of these reforms should be given a priority. I am sure

  1367
  that the Financial Secretary will comment upon the cost of these reforms in his reply, and we shall be only too pleased to hear what the cost is.
  Mr. Diamond: But the hon. Gentleman said that these proposals had been most carefully considered in various committees before being put forward as Conservative official policy. Is he now saying that these committees decided to put forward these proposals without the foggiest idea of what the cost would be?
  Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman is asking for the detailed costs of these proposals. When these costs were looked into we had only the statistics which were available from the past. We did not have those that were available at present, nor did we have the result of this Bill in mind. I therefore did not come here prepared with the detailed costs of the proposals. I only ask the Financial Secretary in his winding up speech to give his estimate of the cost and to say categorically that the Government do not think it worth while to undertake this expenditure. We do. We have some conception of the cost and we think it worth while to give this priority.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan): The hon. Gentleman does not know the cost. I see his difficulty about that, but if it is shown that it involves higher taxation, is the hon. Gentleman willing to vote for higher taxation and defend it in the country, or will the party opposite do what they did with the old age pensions—vote for an increase and then vote against higher taxation?
  Mr. Walker: If under the right hon. Gentleman's Chancellorship this year production had gone up instead of going down, perhaps there would have been more revenue available to him than there is. I am certain that the taxation which would have been obtained if production had not dropped would have more than met the cost of these proposals.
  Mr. Callaghan: That is no answer.
  Mr. Walker: It may not be an answer which the Chancellor likes. He is doubtless ashamed of the drop in production that has taken place.
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  The Bill endeavours to meet the rise in the cost of living since the last Pensions (Increase) Act, although it might be still true to say, for example, that those pensioners who retired more recently—in 1963 and 1964—will not be obtaining an increase in their pensions which meets the rise that has taken place in the cost of living during the past year. One of the factors which must bear heavily on the minds of public service pensioners at the moment is the rise in the cost of living which is likely to take place in the months after this Bill comes into operation.
  Here there is cause for disquiet. The Chief Secretary suggested that there were two matters which should bring comfort to the pensioner. One was the attempt by the Government to bring in a prices and incomes policy. The other was the review which is being made by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. I do not think that the prices and incomes policy will be very much comfort to public service pensioners if it is such a success in the future as it has been in the past. During the past year when there has been all the publicity about this policy the effect has been that the gap between production and rising incomes is greater than it has been for a decade. Therefore, if this "success" continues it will be an alarming situation for public service pensioners.
  There are other actions by the Government which must cause particular concern. I refer to the manner in which at the moment they have stopped certain rises in the cost of living by means of subsidy. For example, when London bus fares were going up they decided to provide a £5 million subsidy to prevent their being increased this year. That subsidy happens to end on the same day as it is intended to bring in the pension increases. Is the subsidy to be continued or are the public service pensioners in the Greater London area going to discover on the day they get their increase in pensions a very substantial increase taking place in London bus and train fares?
  One of the difficulties of this type of subsidy is the way in which it discriminates between public service pensioners in one area and another. For example, public service pensioners in my constituency and in that of the Chief

  1369
  Secretary have had substantial increases in their bus fares this year which did not receive a subsidy from the Treasury. Does it mean therefore that public service pensioners there deserve a greater increase than those in the Greater London area?
  Likewise, a similar argument could be applied to coal. The Government subsidised coal with £15 million to the coal industry. That subsidy ends in April. Does that mean that within a few months of these pensions coming into operation all the coal prices for the pensioners will be increased? There must be some feeling among pensioners that the increased gap between production and incomes and the ending of temporary subsidies given to certain basic commodities will combine to ensure that in 1966 there will be a considerable rise in the cost of living and that this will somewhat erode the effects of this Measure.
  I should like to ask the Financial Secretary what is the Government's current thinking upon some of the proposals that they made when this type of Measure was last debated in 1962. It is true to say that: four proposals came out of the speeches of Front Bench Opposition spokesmen at that time. The first was that there should be a major inquiry into the whole problem of public service pensions. Presumably this is forming part of the greater inquiry now being conducted by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, though I should have thought that this was a matter where, if an inquiry was needed to formulate the Government's view, it would have been better done as specifically an inquiry into this problem so that speedy decisions could be made. I say this because we have no conception when the general inquiry will come to a conclusion. Perhaps the Financial Secretary can give us a date when a report of that inquiry will be made.
  Secondly, in that debate there was a proposal that there should be a bi-annual review of public service pensions. Why have the Government not decided to do this? The excuse that there is a general inquiry going on would not stop this provision coming into operation, because if the general inquiry is finished before the two years have expired the House will accept whatever new suggestion is
  1370
  made, but if the inquiry was not completed this provision would ensure that these pensions would be reviewed. Why has this proposal been dropped?
  Thirdly, great play was made in that debate of the position of civil servants who had unestablished service and that the whole basis of calculating their pensions was unfair. Have the Government now come to the conclusion, on looking at this matter in greater detail, that this is a problem which they are unable to tackle?
  Fourthly, there was the question of the re-employed pensioner. I believe that Clause 2 of the Bill—which is rather Complicated and I therefore may be wrong—still does not deal with the point that this is affected by Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, 1834 where pay and pension together cannot exceed a person's previous pay before he ceased employment. It was pointed out then that certain people during a period of time can neither obtain a pay increase nor a pension increase. This does not appear to have been tackled in this Bill.
  As for the date of bringing in the increased pension, I would remind the House that the last time when this was debated the then Opposition introduced an Amendment with the ingenious idea that the pension should be backdated to the time when it was originally announced. It would be interesting to know why the party opposite find that less attractive in Government than it was when they were in Opposition.
  There were also general pledges on the question of parity of pensions. We need a clearer statement from the Financial Secretary on where the Labour Party and the Government stand on this issue. There are many quotations to be found on this subject. The one which probably had a great deal of effect came from the then chairman of the National Executive of the Labour Party, the present Colonial Secretary. In his capacity as chairman, the right hon. Gentleman said, in a letter of reply to the chairman of the Officers' Pension Society:
  "As to your further point, you will know that we are favourably disposed towards the principle of parity, and that we would open negotiations with interested bodies to see how reforms along these lines can be introduced."

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  Have these negotiations taken place? Do the Government consider that the proposals in this Bill are all that is required to go towards the principle of parity, or do they now reject the principle of parity and intend not to go towards it in the future?
  Public service pensioners believed that the return of a Labour Government would bring about some of the reforms I have mentioned. Now, a year after their arrival in office, they introduce a Pensions (Increase) Bill providing for none of the suggested reforms. An explanation is called for. It is not sufficient to say, that they are holding a general inquiry. There was a natural understanding that, after 13 years in opposition, right hon. and hon. Members opposite had some conception of what their policy would be and would be ready to put it into operation.
  I come now to some of the details of the provisions. The Chief Secretary seemed a little confused about whether he was treating this exercise as one of tackling hardship or seeing, as a good employer, that the pensions were maintained. This was certainly so in his reply to the intervention by his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown), who pointed out that the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman grouped both the National Insurance pension and the public service pension gave an unfair illustration in many cases. The Chief Secretary nods his head. Will he deny that there are some public service pensioners who do not receive the National Insurance pension?
  Mr. H. Hind: Hear, hear.
  Mr, Diamond: I dealt with this matter in my speech.
  Mr. Walker: I take it, therefore, that the Chief Secretary agrees that there- are some public service pensioners who do not receive a National Insurance pension. His hon. Friend was quite right in making the point that some of these people will not benefit from the aggregate advantage which the right hon. Gentleman set out in his speech. Therefore, there will be some pensioners, particularly those in the category referred to, those without National Insurance pensions and some
  1372
  who have retired for a longer period of time, who will still consider that they are suffering hardship. This is why we make our proposal that all these public service pensions should be brought up to the 1956 levels.
  Apparently, the Chief Secretary rejects the idea that there is a general case for a larger pension at the age of 70 than at 65. I recognise that, in the context of public service pensions, the length of service is a crucial factor, but I hope that the Government will not reject the general premise that people at the greater ages have greater needs than those who are somewhat younger.
  Mr. Lubbock: The hon. Gentleman urges his proposal that all pensions awarded previously should be brought up to the 1956 level. When did his party first put this proposal forward?
  Mr. Walker: We put it forward in our recent statement of policy. I do not deny that. During our 12 months in Opposition, we have used the time far more sensibly than right hon. and hon. Members opposite did in their 13 years and we have come forward with many more sensible and important proposals.
  On the general proposition that older people should have a larger pension, I remind the Chief Secretary that people of 70 have greater physical difficulties, they find the renewal of furniture, clothing and so forth an increasing problem as age increases, and they experience other difficulties such as the lack of savings spent in the interim years, and so on.
  In my view, we were quite right in the 1962 Bill to provide for an extra flat rate increase for people over 70. I think that, to some extent, the Government concede this; they are retaining it and increasing it by a percentage. But I hope that, in considering the position of pensions generally, both public service and National Insurance, they will not forget that there are particular problems experienced by the more aged people in our society.
  We shall support the Bill. We shall do all we can to speed it on its way through Committee and its final stages. We want to see the benefits of the Bill coming in at the earliest possible time. We shall endeavour in Committee to introduce constructive suggestions, and

  1373
  we hope that, as in the past on matters such as this, in which we all share a similar objective, the whole subject will be debated in a constructive way.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Other hon. Members apart from myself must have listened with a certain amount of cynical amusement to the speech of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker). I seem to remember that many of the arguments which he used were put by this party and knocked down by the then Government during the long barren years of Tory Administration. Listening to the hon. Gentleman, one might have thought that public servants would have had all these things added unto them during those 13 years, but now, it seems, since they went out of office, the Tories have changed their minds and are coming forward with new proposals. It is good that they do. There is more rejoicing in the House when one Tory comes to the penitents' seat than over the ninety-and-nine who have not yet done so.
  My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary eloquently described the cause of the problem which is dealt with in the Bill. I shall not weary the House by repeating what he said about the rises in the cost of living or the way that pensioners who paid on an actuarial basis over many years of public service now see their pensions diminishing in purchasing power. I welcome the Bill, and I congratulate the Government particularly on the way they have, on this occasion, actually increased its scope.
  I take Schedule 1 as an example. It covers civil servants and local government employees, even civil servants who served in India, Pakistan, Burma, the Sudan and Egypt. That is a pretty wide scope, but it applies also to judges, postmen, police, teachers, nurses, employees of the National Health Service and, what is more, the staff of the Cotton Commission, of the Trustee Savings Banks and— I am very interested in this one—of the College of Domestic Arts of South Wales and Monmouthshire.
  That is a very wide and generous interpretation of public service, and the Bill is intended to deal with them all. I say, "Good luck to them, including the staff of the College of Domestic Arts of South
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  Wales and Monmouthshire". I hope that they all enjoy their pensions. But, as this is a Second Reading debate, I assume that it would be in order to suggest a slight extension of the list in Schedule 1. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will know what I have in mind.
  In his speech, my right hon. Friend said that the nationalised industries had not yet been dealt with by these Pensions (Increase) Measures. He will know that, although they have not been brought within the scope of the Acts, ex-employees of the gas and electricity undertakings have had equivalent increases given to them by their former employers. But this has not been extended to ex-employees of the railways, and many of them, by the way, are among the people referred to who do not draw a National Insurance pension in addition to other pensions because they were exempted at the time of the original National Insurance Act.
  Like other public servants who are not yet included, these people are, naturally, asking why. On 25th March, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, whom I am glad to see in his place, put it this way:
  "The distinction is the distinction between those who are in any way Government servants and those who may be public servants of some other kind, which railway men certainly have been and are, though they are not Government employees. The Pensions (Increase) Acts apply to the employees of central and local government, but not beyond that…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th March, 1965; Vol 709, c. 1073.]
  Do they not? Where does the College of Domestic Arts of South Wales and Monmouthshire come in? Surely railways officials are just as much public servants as are the staff of that estimable college?
  This principle has been admitted by the Minister. He is very sympathetic. It has been admitted by the British Railways Board. More than 100 hon. Members of all parties signed a Motion to this effect in the last Session and they felt so strongly about it that this Motion is Motion No. 1 on the Order Paper today. If "sympathetic and urgent consideration" has been offered by the Ministry, as we were told on 25th March, then I am very disappointed that when we are including the staffs of the Trustee: Savings Banks, the Cotton Commission and the College of

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  Domestic Arts pf South Wales and Monmouthshire, it has not been seen fit to include railway superannuitants in the Bill.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Samuel Storey): Order. I have allowed the hon. Member to refer to railway super-annuitants, but it is strictly outside the scope of the Bill, and I hope that he will not pursue it. May I remind him that three years ago the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. Horace King) was called to order on this very subject. Now that the then poacher has turned gamekeeper, I do not think that we can pursue the subject further.
  Mr. Hynd: Naturally I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I certainly do not wish to mention super-annuitants again. But let us look at the list and see whether hon. Members who have perhaps a little more imagination than I have can think of some other sections which would be equally applicable to this long list in Schedule 1. There is a list of 31 different classes of people, quite apart from the reference in Clause 3 to the College of Domestic Art of South Wales and Monmouthshire. It may well be that there are some classes of people who consider themselves to be public servants but who are not included in the Bill.
  Is it to be impossible in Committee to suggest an Amendment which would bring some of those people within the scope of the Bill? If there are 31 classes of people in Schedule 1, is it impossible under the rules of the House to make it 32 or 33 classes? With great respect, it is the first time I have been told that we are not permitted to suggest an Amendment of that kind.
  Of course, I may be told that any class which I suggest in my Amendment is not a class of public servants. The whole argument then revolves around what is a public servant. I am trying to think of borderline cases. Let us say that the staff of the Accrington Citizens Advice Bureau or some such office as that are involved. Are they public servants? Would it be in order in Committee for me to table an Amendment to add to Schedule 1 a 32nd class to include the staff of the Accrington Citizens Advice Bureau, who might consider themselves
  1376
  to be public servants? This is the kind of difficulty which we face.
  Mr. Lubbock: If the hon. Member looks at the Money Resolution he will find that the Bill authorises
  "payment out of moneys provided by Parliament"
  of increases of pensions to which Section 1 of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962, applies. If they are not mentioned in that Act, they cannot be included by the hon. Member in his Amendment.
  Mr. Hynd: With great respect, there are one or two additional classes in this Bill which were not in the 1962 Act. I suggest that the hon. Member's argument would not hold water.
  In any case, surely it is a question whether a person is a public servant or not. How far can we go? We might have a class of public servants who were not included in the Bill because the undertaking in which they were engaged was not making a profit, If that argument is to be advanced, we must look at the classes in Schedule 1, and see whether in every case they are employees of an undertaking making a profit. How are we to decide which set of public servants or quasi-public servants are to be included? This is a difficulty.
  As the Government themselves have been so generous in extending the list to cover such people as the staff of the College of Domestic Art of South Wales and Monmouthshire, I feel that they might well have gone a little further. It may well be that some class of public servant which I have indicated has been paying for years into a superannuation fund which has then been invested in the undertaking in which these people work, perhaps at 4 per cent., much below the market rate. If this is so, then this undertaking has been making a profit out of these people. That is another reason why the Government should have been a little more generous in considering what should be done about improving pensions. All the arguments adduced by the Chief Secretary about the need to increase the incomes of pensioners to meet the rise in the cost of living applies not only to the 31 classes in Schedule 1 but to other pensioners. I hope that the Government will pursue this matter and see whether anything can be done about it.

  1377
  Other employers have tried to follow the Pensions (Increase) Acts to some extent. For example, I am told that the Chairman of the British Railways Board is meeting the general secretary of the Transport Salaried Staffs Association tomorrow morning to discuss the possible implications for a certain class of person whom I am not allowed to mention in the debate. I hope that this time action will be taken which is an improvement on what has been done before.
  As one of my colleagues once said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have punctured my peroration and ruined my speech by your Ruling, but I must bow to your Ruling, and I will not mention railway superannuitants again unless the Government provoke me.
  5.8 p.m.
  Captain Walter Elliot: I am very grateful that I have caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I apologise to the House for the fact that I cannot stay here until the end of the debate. Unfortunately, as a back bench Member we do not get the programme of business as early as we should like, and I have an engagement from which I am afraid I cannot escape. I am delighted to follow in the debate the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd), whose speeches I always enjoy almost as much as his company, but I hope that he will not feel that I am discourteous if I do not follow his argument. The Chief Secretary said that he would listen carefully to any suggestions for a new system of public service pensions and I hope that I shall make some contribution in that sense and that he will consider what I have to say. The hon. Member for Accrington has certainly given the Government something to think about.
  Naturally I welcome the Bill, but I am afraid that it appears to me the last nail in the coffin by the Government in respect of the principle of parity of pensions. Whatever they say and however they play about with language, this is a gross betrayal of their election promises. I must confess that I was very interested to hear the Chief Secretary's remarks about the percentage increases not being unfair to the older pensioners. Some of my figures do not seem to bear
  1378
  that out, but I will re-examine them and see what has gone wrong. I was also interested to hear that this applies to the effect of inflation on public service pensions. The Chief Secretary said that these pensions had kept ahead of inflation. I have some figures on that, too, which do not seem to bear his views out, but, again, I will examine them to see where they have gone wrong.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) that it is a great pity that the imaginative principle, which was introduced by the last Conservative Government, of a flat-rate increase for pensioners over 70 has not been retained.
  Mr. Diamond: As the hon. and gallant Member is in good company in his misunderstanding, I am sure that he will forgive me for intervening to point out that it has been retained. It is not being repeated but it is being retained, and the percentage to which I have referred will apply to it. But surely the whole purpose of a flat-rate increase is that it is given to fill a certain difference. Once it has been given, the purpose of levelling up has been achieved. Having given it once and having reached the necessary level, that is sufficient. It is not implied in the Conservative philosophy of giving that one particular flat-rate increase that it should be given every time.
  Captain Elliot: I do not want to dwell at length on this subject but there is a distinction. I understand that the 16 per cent. increase also applies to that £20, but the principle has been absorbed into the general system of awarding pensions increases, and I think that it ought to have been retained in such a way as to cater for the special needs of those over 70.
  I am also sorry to hear that the age limit for the receipt of the increases has not been brought down to 55. Many people come out of the Services these days and do other jobs, and the importance of a pension to the public service man is sometimes underestimated. If he can do his work in the public service, in whatever field, without having to worry about his pension when he retires, then he can give his full time to the job in hand. If, on the other hand, during the course of his service he has to worry about the adequancy of his pension—I did this

  1379
  myself—he spends a lot of time preparing himself for another job. To a certain extent, I submit, that affects his efficiency in his service. In view of the increased number of people who work after retirement, the importance of this should not be underestimated. If the age for the increase were brought down to 55, it would help the efficiency of these public servants.
  I criticise the Government for what I consider a cynical repudiation of their election pledge of parity of pensions. In fact, I believe that there are compelling arguments against it, and I am glad that in the past, as now, we on these benches have had the political courage to say so. It is very expensive, in the first place, but there are other arguments against it too. The nature of the job changes, there are recruiting problems which have to be considered and the terms of the pensions offered play their part in solving these problems. But certainly we should work towards lessening the differences in pension between those retiring today and those who retired in earlier years.
  Welcome though the Bill is, as earlier Measures were welcome, it is not the way to go about the job. I have said this before and I say it again because the right hon. Gentleman said that he will listen carefully to any suggestion. If pensioners have suffered erosion of their pensions or have fallen behind, in the first place we have to attach the blame for this where it belongs. It is not only on the Government, either the present Government or the last Government. In the first place, it is largely the fault of those who negotiate the salaries on behalf of the staff side of the various categories of public servants.
  The men and women in the public service who are working today owe much to successive Conservative Governments —the acceptance of the principle of comparability of the Civil Service to outside industry and, for the Fighting Services, the acceptance of the Grigg Report's recommendation for a biennial review of Service pay and pensions. These have brought great financial benefits to all the people in those professions. Today, they are well paid and look forward to good pensions, but time and again they scrape the bottom of the Treasury barrel with their demands without a thought
  1380
  for the older retired people of their professions.
  Is it asking too much to suggest that the negotiators should have the unselfishness to forgo a small fraction of the extra money made available to them to meet their claims in order that a comparable percentage increase can be paid to their retired former colleagues? It would not be much. The number of retired people in any given profession compared with the number of serving members is quite small. In addition, the average pension is perhaps half the average salary level. It would not, therefore, be much of a sacrifice to ask.
  It has been argued that those currently earning have a right to be better off in real terms as they are at any given moment producing the wealth of the country. I reject that argument. The average pensioner lives to enjoy his pension for perhaps up to 20 years after retirement. What happens to the nation in that period will have been decided, for better or worse, quite as much by what was done before his retirement as after.
  Again it will be argued that the negotiators will pitch their claims higher in order to get what they regard as the right amount for active members. But that is what they do now. The demands always are too high. But no doubt an offer would be accepted and the association or union concerned would then be told that, if its members wished their retired former colleagues to share in the settlement, the accepted sum would have a small amount subtracted. This would be said and done publicly and if the representatives of the working members insisted on grabbing the lot it would be an excellent thing to focus the attention of the nation on them.
  The case of the Fighting Services is different. They have no unions to put their case. On the other hand, senior active officers have great influence in these matters. In the first place, the biennial review of Service pay was introduced to get over recruiting problems, but I do not think that this is a serious point today. Service pay and pensions are well above what is necessary to recruit, in my view. In the case of the Services, of course, the Government could direct that the principle I advocate would in future be applied when Service pay

  1381
  adjustments were made—that a small percentage would be deducted to raise the pensions of retired former service people.
  But I do not want the Government necessarily to take the initiative. I want it to come from the Services themselves, to see it being done at the request of the professional members of the governing boards of the Services. If properly explained, I am sure that it would be accepted by all officers and men serving and I believe that, instead of affecting recruiting, it might indeed improve it.
  Mr. Paget: The best source of recruiting has always been the Service families, and where there are, in Service families, old Service men who feel that they have been badly defrauded, we get empty recruiting offices.
  Captain Elliot: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for that point, which adds great weight to what I have said. But I believe the Service chiefs should give the moral leadership and show some charity and unselfishness in this matter. The opportunity will arise early next year when, I understand, Service pay and pensions will be reviewed. If the review follows precedent it will award substantial increases. If the Services do what I suggest, I believe it would be reasonable to expect the civil servants and other unions and associations to follow suit. If they do not do so, the nation could discount their crocodile tears which are often shed over pensioners.
  I hope that the Government will take action to bring this to the notice of those concerned. It is wrong that every two or three years, as a result of sustained agitation, the Government have to produce £20 million to £30 million to settle the matter. If the Government will do what I suggest I will support them in this, and if their approach is rejected I, and, I hope, all of us, will focus our criticism on those responsible for the rejection. But if those concerned accepted it I believe we should finish with this problem for good and all.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. Harry Randall: Hon. Members opposite who have spoken in this debate have taken the opportunity to display the "new look" of the Conservative Party.
  Mr. J. C. Jennings: Be careful.
  Mr. Randall: There is no need for me to be careful. It has been demonstrated here this afternoon. What is equally true, of course, is that, despite the dispute across the Floor about the cost of the proposals which the Conservative Party has in mind, we did not get any answer. I appreciate the difficulty of providing it immediately, but the House is entitled to recall that there were Pensions (Increase) Acts in 1956, 1959 and 1962, and that on no occasion during the debates on those Measures did we hear from the then Government about such a change in the superstructure of pensions nor anything about a regular review. There were requests from both Liberal and Labour hon. Members asking for a regular review but we were never able to get it.
  Mr. Jennings: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that there was a radical change in the structure of this type of pension when the Tory Government moved over from a flat-rate percentage increase to the escalator system?
  Mr. Randall: Yes, but today, if the Opposition are arguing that percentages are something basic and are to set aside the question of parity, I should be surprised.
  Mr. Lubbock: I remind the hon. Gentleman of what was said by the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), as Chief Secretary to the Treasury. When the proposal for a biennial review was made by Lord Wade, the right hon. Gentleman replied:
  "I do not find this proposal at all attractive."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th November, 1962; Vol. 667, c. 1159.]
  Now the same proposal is being put forward from the Tory benches.
  Mr. Randall: That is the point. There should be an explanation from the Opposition. It is not good enough to put up these proposals after the years in which they had the opportunity to put them into operation. The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) says the Opposition have had time to be much more sensible. I hoped throughout their 13 years of office that they would have time to be sensible and introduce some of the things they now advocate.
  Mr. W. H. Loveys: Does the hon. Gentleman feel inclined towards the idea of a regular review?
  Mr. Randall: I am coming to that. If the hon. Gentleman had listened to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary he would have known that this is only an interim Measure. It is all very well for the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) to have a chuckle about it, but it has been said and I am delighted that there is to be this review and that not only the question of the biennial review will be concluded but other aspects of public service pensions so that we can avoid what we have had in the past—the lobbying and pressure that goes on from outside.
  I am at one with many hon. Members in this respect. I want to see this matter removed from the arena. This is a distasteful business and I do not like it. I assure the House that the pensioners do not like it. I understand that not only my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer but my right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance are involved in the inquiry.
  Sir Lionel Heald: Does the hon. Gentleman really mean that it was only Liberal and Labour Members who raised the question of a review? The words he has used were identical to words I used during a previous debate.
  Mr. Randall: I beg the right hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon. I should have recalled his activities over a number of years in his commendable efforts on behalf of civil servants. I apologise to him.
  There is no doubt that among public service and Armed Forces pensioners there will be general agreement with and appreciation of the Government's action in proposing increases in these pensions at a time when the Government are being heavily pressed over a wide range of Government expenditure. That should be kept well in mind. When financial circumstances are easier, we ought to have some of the things which I want in a Pensions (Increase) Bill, but they are difficult at the moment and I am sure that both the public services and the Armed Forces will appreciate the Bill, even though it is an interim Measure while the
  1384
  general review is being undertaken. For me it demonstrates that the Government are genuinely concerned for those who have served the State and it carries out the undertaking to public servants that early attention would be given to this matter.
  However, the Bill ought not to be regarded as the last word. I prefer to regard it as a patching-up operation. With all the other social legislation under review by the three Ministers whom I have mentioned, no one can reasonably expect a complete answer to the requests which public servants and others are putting to us. However, I am sure that the House would rather that we dealt with this matter away from lobbying and the pressures which we have had before and removed from the political arena.
  It is generally accepted today that there will be an incomes policy which will have a consequential effect on increases in wages and salaries. We must similarly face the problem of regularly adjusting the pensions of public servants. When the Government give this matter more detailed consideration, as I am sure they will, I hope that they will not regard it on the basis of cushioning the pensioner against the rising cost of living. They should move towards public service pensioners enjoying a share of the rising standard of living of the community as a whole, rising standards made possible through increases in purchasing power. Pensioners are entitled to no less than that. However, having said that and while strongly urging the Government to continue to seek an answer, I very much welcome the Bill.
  I want to deal with the proposed scale of increases while broadly follows the pattern of the 1962 Act, and I have two comments to make. First, like other hon. Members, I welcome the extension of the further two years which has provided an escalator of 2 to 16 per cent. against the 2 to 12 per cent. of the 1962 Act. This extension will provide 16 per cent. increases for all who retired before April, 1957. However, the period round about 1957 is very significant and it is most relevant when adjusting the pensions of civil servants.
  There is little doubt that the salaries of civil servants were depressed before the settlement of 1956 which followed the Priestley Commission of 1953–55. Prior

  1385
  to that, we had the Tomlin formula as the yardstick for measuring wages and salaries in the Civil Service. The Tomlin formula dealt only with long-term trends and during those years Civil Service pay fell far behind.
  The scales which were ultimately recommended by the Priestley Commission were, in the words of paragraph 346 of the Commission's Report.
  "the best attempt that we have been able to make".
  In paragraph 323 the Commission said:
  "…we have not been able to apply either the principle of fair comparison or the methods we recommend to the extent we should wish to see them applied in the future."
  If that means anything, it emphasises the extent of the depression of Civil Service wages and salaries prior to the setting up of the Priestley Commission.
  That is why 1957 is extremely important. If wages and salaries around that period were depressed, there was a consequential effect on pensions for those who retired before the implementing of the Priestley recommendations. Nevertheless, the Priestley proposals and the central pay increases made an important step forward. But that change in salary had a significant effect on pre-Priestley pensions. This is the burden of the grievance and complaint of that section of pensioners. They feel a sense of injustice and grievance, because depressed salaries at that time resulted in pensions which were equally depressed and which could not be put right as a result of the later Priestley recommendations.
  For example, to take a middle grade; the salary of a principal in 1956 was £1,670 and in 1959 it was £2,375. A principal who went on pension in March, 1956, today receives a pension of £949, but the 1959 pension is £1,103. There is a difference for the same grade of £154 per annum. With postmen, the difference is £40; with clerical officers it is £35 and with higher executive officers it is £69. This is why there is a sense of grievance and injustice among that section of pensioners.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider whether he can agree that pensions paid to pre-April, 1957, pensioners, pre-Priestley, can be brought up at least to the level of April, 1957 pensions. That would be warmly welcomed and would
  1386
  make the significant contribution to easing the controversy about this matter. I do not know what the cost of such a concession would be, but I should like my right hon. Friend to consider it.
  The second point which I wish to bring to the attention of the House concerns the cut-off date of 1st April, 1964. Anybody who has retired since then will receive no increase, but in the period 1st April, 1964, to 1st April, 1965, the cost of living rose by 5 per cent. and the wages index probably by about 6 per cent. It is certain that even before the Bill reaches the Statute Book there will be a pressure group of people who have not been included. I should like my right hon. Friend to consider the possibility of making the cut-off date 1st April, 1965.
  There has already been some discussion in connection with those over 70 years of age. As I understand the position those who were entitled to benefit under the 1962 Act retained that entitlement, enhanced by the proposed percentage increases. I welcome that very much. Unfortunately, the Bill makes no provision for continuing this principle of an additional sum at the age of 70. In other words no one who retires after 1st April, 1961 is going to benefit. I very much hope that this is an oversight, because, even on the basis of the proposed increase, many of those who reach 70 in the future will receive less benefit than that which is provided under the 1962 Act.
  This will particularly affect the lower pensions. Under the 1962 Act a man who retired three years before received, on reaching 70, an addition of £10, which certainly will now attract the 12 per cent. increase, making it £11 4s. Under the 1965 proposals the man who retires three years before, in 1961, does not get the £10 at 70. This will hit the lowly-paid grades very hard. The 1962 Act had an overriding ceiling of increases of 25 per cent. of pensions in payment. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider continuing the principle of the 1962 Act by the very simple course of extending it by three years, with the consequential amendments to the sums.
  Can the Minister make a pledge that he will be looking at public service pensions within a reasonable time? Whether or not it is possible to find a permanent

  1387
  solution it is certainly clear that Pensions (Increase) Bills have to be introduced at fairly regular intervals. There was one in 1956, 1959, 1962 and now we have this Bill. All have followed months of agitation. It seems reasonable to ask the Minister to give an undertaking that, quite apart from any general examination of the system, there will be a further review of public service pensions within, say, two years, to see to what extent they require to be amended. I welcome this Bill and hope that the Minister will be prepared to look at the points I have made and bring forward the necessary Amendments.
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. Jennings: I have pleasure in following the hon. Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Randall). It is not the first time that we have followed each other in debate in this House. The first time was many years ago, when I had the great privilege of congratulating him on his second maiden speech after he had spent an enforced holiday outside of this House. I agree with much of what he has said, but not all of it—I never do, and I could not be expected to do so as a friendly enemy. It would be churlish of me not to welcome this Bill, but I do so with reservations. I welcome it as an interim and holding measure. I was interested in what the Chief Secretary said in his introductory remarks, that the Government had not attempted to set a definitive pattern in the Bill for the future. I am using his own words. He defined it as a holding measure, and that is all it is.
  This matter has a very long history. Particularly in post-war years, this problem has reared its ugly head time after time in the House. No one was more vociferously against the principles enunciated by the Tory Government than many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who are now having to bring in a Measure which is on all fours with what the mean Tories did. It is a repetition. Time after time in the last year, since the advent of a Labour Government, some of us have pressed the Minister, both privately and in this House, for some definition of future policy. What answer have we received? "Await the review." What answer do we get today? "Await the review." What has happened to it?
  1388
  I agree with the hon. Member for Gateshead, West that it might be better if public service pensions were detached from the general question of social insurance and pensions; only let us have some speed of action to deal with the anomalies and the hardships which exist.
  The plain truth is that this Bill merely resembles previous Bills. There is no radical change. It adopts the escalator system, which was brought in by a previous Tory Government, as a completely opposite policy from the flat rate. Apart from minor details, it perpetuates the same definitive system brought in by the Tories in their 1962 Bill. From time to time Members opposite, when they were on the Opposition benches, criticised the Tory Government for being mean and inactive, and they used all the usual sob-stuff about pensioners. I want to quote from the Prime Minister in order to see what the attitude of the then Opposition was. In a written statement, before the election, he said:
  "Since we feel the position"—
  and this means after 13 years of Tory rule—
  "is a positive disgrace, we have persistently brought this matter up in the House of Commons. We have also called for public service pensions to be linked to some economic indicator, so that the pensioners are not only compensated for rises in prices"—
  and this brings in the point made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gateshead, West—
  "but also receive their full and fair share in rising national prosperity."
  I could not subscribe more to the latter part of this statement. This statement was made more than a year ago. If the position was bad then, how much worse is it now when, in the words of the hon. Member for Gateshead, West, the cost of living has gone up at least 5 per cent.?
  These very people in respect of whom the Prime Minister was complaining a year ago are now in a far worse position. Yet the then Opposition was poised for action! Now they bring in the same type of Bill which they condemned. The most important part of the statement of the Prime Minister is in the middle, when he says:
  "We have also called for public service pensions to be linked to some economic indicator…"
  Is there any evidence in this Bill that the whole scheme has been linked to any

  1389
  indicator, whether cost of living or anything else? We have to wait for that.
  I had some questions to put to members of the Treasury Bench, but, like good statesmen, they have read the minds of hon. Members on the Opposition benches. Some of my questions have been answered before I asked them, and I am grateful for that. I was wondering whether this was just an interim Measure, and I am grateful for the assurance that it is. I look forward to some drastic changes of policy when we get the result of the review. How soon can we expect the review to be finished? We have had a year now, and I should think that the time is rapidly approaching, when, in order to make some concrete change in the present scheme, we should have a definite announcement. I think that this is just an ad hoc measure. I regret that there has been no indication so far of any link with economic circumstances or anything else. I look forward to hearing exactly what is in the Government's mind.
  Much has been said about parity. There are differences among Members on both sides of the House about the wisdom of introducing parity. This is an old subject. In 1956, those of us in the 1922 Committee set up the Heald Committee. I was the secretary and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chert-sey (Sir L. Heald) was chairman. We did valuable work. We acted as a pressure group on the then Tory Government. At that time parity was a burning issue. When we pressed for it, we were told that the cost would be £22 million. A few years later it had risen to, I suspect, £50 million or £80 million. If the Government were to grant parity now, the cost would be much more than £100 million.
  We must be clear about what parity means. To put it simply, it means paying all pensions at the rate current for those now retired. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) said, one could give many quotations to show what the Government's attitude on parity was when they were in opposition. My hon. Friend quoted the official statement by the present Colonial Secretary when he was Chairman of the Labour Party. There is another one. An official statement was made from Transport House over a year ago—just
  1390
  before the election. It shows the hedging which takes place in political circles— and I say "circles" advisedly—on questions which involve the expenditure of public money.
  This is what the official statement from Transport House said:
  "While the Labour Government would not be able to accept parity in full or at once for financial reasons, it would be prepared to give careful and sympathetic consideration to any proposals made."
  The quotation made by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester of what the then Chairman of the Labour Party said indicated that hon. Members opposite had great sympathy in this matter. We on this side were always told when the Government were in opposition that sympathy was not enough. Sympathy is not enough in this case either.
  The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) made a very courageous stand in the House on this subject. Having been a rebel on occasions myself, I appreciated and admired greatly what he did. If he will allow me, I should like to quote what he said about this matter when he spoke at the Dispatch Box on behalf of the Labour Party in Opposition:
  "I then had the task, the very pleasant task, of being the spokesman for the Labour Party at the Dispatch Box on the two Army Estimates and of making this pledge in most specific terms, which was that we would take the first opportunity to raise the pensions of the retired Service people to what they would have been had the man retired upon the latest pay scale…I was authorised to give this pledge."
  That was the position of the Labour Party in those days.
  I ask the Financial Secretary: exactly what is the Government's attitude to parity? Do they propose to say that "the first opportunity" has not yet come? No doubt we shall be told that the legacy left by the Tory Government has prevented them from doing what they said they would do. We are tired of this story; it is wearing thin. However, looked at practically in view of the economic circumstances, when will "the first opportunity" come of at least going some way towards parity?
  There has been a change of heart on this side of the House, and I welcome it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That is all right. I have fought my right hon. and hon. Friends as hard as I have fought

  1391
  the political devils opposite. Time after time when we have discussed Pensions (Increase) Bills I have castigated those on my own Front Bench. I am pleased to see that at last they have taken notice of what I have said. They have come to this conclusion without help from me. They have gone halfway towards parity, because I gather from the policy statement, and from what my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester said, that they are prepared to accept parity for all pensioners up to the 1956 level. This is going a good way. It is a step in the right direction, and a long step.
  The Government could improve the Bill. I give them this suggestion free of charge: they could steal the Tory thunder if they gave parity up to 1956 level and then continued the escalator scale. Will the Government be any less generous than the Tories would have been? If so, the charge of meanness is transferred from these benches to the benches opposite.
  The Chief Secretary said that he would be prepared to look sympathetically at suggestions for improving the Bill. I hope that it is improved in Committee. There has been an incessant recurrence of Pensions (Increase) Bills—1944, 1947, 1952, 1954, 1956, 1959, 1962 and 1965— almost an average of one every three years. The right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) has stood at the Dispatch Box time after time and fulminated against this very system; and so have I. We were friends together across the Floor of the House on this question. Now we have a repetition.
  It must have come to the minds of hon. and right hon. Members on the Treasury Bench that a Bill every three years is no good. The trend over the last few years has been for people to have a wage or salary increase every year. If workers do not get an annual increase, there is trouble. Therefore, if there is to be an economic link with pensions, as the Prime Minister said before the election, there must be an annual review of pensions to keep them in line with the earnings of the rest of society. Therefore, what is the Government's policy on this?
  I will spend just two or three minutes on the Bill itself. It follows the previous
  1392
  pattern. It re-establishes the escalator principle that the longest retired get the biggest percentage rise. However, there is one significant omission, and that is the age bonus in the 1962 Act.
  I know that the Government will tell us that while we on the Tory side in the 1962 Act gave an age bonus to those over 70, some public service pensioners did not like it because, they said, it smacked of charity. Nevertheless, whether that is true or not, here was an extra £20 for certain classes.
  Let me ask the Financial Secretary this. In estimating increases at the top end of the escalator on or before 1st April, 1957, where 16 per cent, is given, is £20 added on to arrive at 16 per cent? I hope it is——
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): The Chief Secretary has already stated that about three times and made it perfectly clear, as clear as it can be made.
  Mr. Jennings: I missed it. I am sorry. I am glad of the reassurance.
  Can I make one further suggestion, then? Some of us will probably put this down as an Amendment in Committee. The oldest pensioners, of course, were in service when salaries were much lower. Therefore, they are the people who suffer. Could I then suggest that, at the top end of the escalator, the escalator be much steeper than it is in other parts? Look at the escalator now— percentages of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16— up by 2 per cent. through each group. Suppose we take percentages of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and then make 14 per cent., the last but one group, 16 per cent., and the last group, the on or before 1st April, 1957, group, 20 per cent. I think we shall give some added compensation at the very top, the people the hon. Member for Gateshead, West is worrying about.
  I hope the Government will look sympathetically at some of these things. I hope that, from the answer at the end of the debate, we shall know what the Government's intentions are regarding parity and regarding the general future structure, as this is a holding Measure. Therefore, in conclusion, I will repeat what I said at the start, that I welcome

  1393
  this Measure and, with these reservations, I commend it, recognising that it is essentially a holding Measure.
  6.3 p.m.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: I shall be very short, and may I start off with an apology. I hate speaking in a debate without staying to the end. On this occasion, I have to go to an engagement. If either my hon. and learned Friend or the right hon. Gentleman opposite indicate to me that they wish me to stay on any point, I will, of course, cancel it; otherwise it is an engagement which, for personal reasons, I am very happy to keep.
  Mr. Powell: In that case I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman will not take it as a discourtesy if, of necessity, references are made in his absence to what he will have said either this evening or on previous occasions.
  Mr. Paget: Of course I fully understand.
  Firstly, I have for many years argued what I call the good money principle. That is, if the State, which controls the value of its money, pays its obligations in a depreciated currency, it is behaving dishonestly. It is not in the same position as the ordinary employer. It controls the means of paying its obligations and, therefore, it must not pay its obligations with bad money, money which it has made bad. As I understand it, that position was—and I am delighted to hear it—accepted by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary. What he said was, as a good employer we must pay pensions at the purchasing power which they had when we pledged them.
  But in arriving at that we must take into consideration not merely the pension for service, but the public pension, too. We as employers said no more than, "At a certain date we will give you a certain purchasing power". And as to whether we also give to other people with different service a part of that purchasing power— well, the service pensioner who objects to that is really taking up the position of the later arrivals in the vineyard. I accept that position; but if that is the position of the Government, I hope it will be applied generally and not merely when it suits them.
  1394
  Of course, it could not apply to pensioners who were under 60, because they would not get the State pension, if I can call it that, the National Insurance pension—and so if there are to be pensioners under 60 they must be entitled to have their pensions brought up to the purchasing power necessary to buy what they could have bought at the time that they were granted. I hope that we shall hear from the Financial Secretary that that principle is accepted. It may be important to this Bill; it is, of course, highly important as to other groups of pensioners who under Royal Warrant may follow this Bill.
  The second point which I want to cover is still dealing with pensioners who do not receive National Insurance pension. Those are those who were over 65 in 1948 and were, therefore, not eligible for the National Insurance pension. Those would be older gentlemen —not very many of them—who are 88 today. But it also covers a much more considerable group, widows, often very much younger, of officers and others who were over 65 in 1948. I hope we can be assured that special provisions will be made also for that group who do not get the National Insurance pension.
  There is yet another group, and that is those who are living abroad. Pensioners quite often have gone to live abroad. Having given their life of service, they have gone to a sunnier clime and also what in the old days, at any rate, were places where money went further. That is another group to whom the principle of honest money for pensions, which, I understand, was accepted by the Chief Secretary, should apply. That is yet another group whose special place must be looked at.
  Now I deal with the second major point in this Bill, what has been described as the escalator principle to deal with the depreciation of money. But it only deals with depreciation since 1956. Now when the retiring age is 60 it may be reasonable, but if we have a group of pensioners 90 per cent. of whom retired before 50 and whose pensions are based on older rates, including in the case of widows rates which applied before the 1914 war, then to stop the depreciation allowance in 1956 renders them very inadequate indeed. Therefore, in so far as this Bill is to serve as a model for

  1395
  other groups of pensioners, it must be recognised that other considerations apply.
  Reference has been made to a pledge which I made from that Dispatch Box. Of course, that pledge did not apply to the officers who come under this Bill. It applied to the members of the Armed Forces whom we recognise to be in a different position. None the less, that is only one among the pledges which, we must recognise, we made when we were in Opposition. I certainly recognise, not very happily, that I am on this side today—because I made that pledge from that Dispatch Box there. The election in one of the Scottish divisions—and, one must feel, very probably others—was decided on pledges given to pensioners who were in the election circulated from their organisations with copies of these pledges and with the specific statement that the Liberal and the Labour pledges were satisfactory and those of the Conservatives were not.
  Therefore, when one comes to consider those pledges, I feel that we who sit here because of them must take them very seriously indeed. I do not say that they take a different position from all other pledges. They do not. We were bequeathed an impossible position by the Tory Party who for a year had squandered because it dared neither go to the country nor to retrench, and these pledges, as all others, must reasonably be subject to some postponement this year —perhaps, even the next?—but do not let us discard them for that reason. The principle of parity is a just one and is a principle which ought to be retained.
  6.14 p.m.
  Mr. W. H. Loveys: It is with some trepidation that I follow the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). We all know his very great interest in and his very great experience of these matters, and many in this House and, I know, a large number in the country have great admiration for the stand which he took and is still taking over his previous pledge on parity, which, as he mentioned, he took from this Dispatch Box, and which was cast aside by his own party as soon as it came into power.
  We all have particular sympathy with that class which he mentioned who are
  1396
  often called the old-age non-pensioners, and we hope that the Government will indeed take note of the hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion that special provision for these people should be made. We hope that that suggestion will not fall on deaf ears this evening. It is so very important.
  It is always a great pleasure for an hon. Member like myself, who represents a constituency which has a very large number of retired public service pensioners, to be able to support a Measure of this sort. I have had that pleasure on every Pensions (Increase) Bill that has come before the House since I was elected. However, my support of each Bill has always been, and is today, a qualified one. On this occasion I am particularly glad that you, Mr. Speaker, are in the Chair, because I recall being called to speak following you in the Second Reading debate of the last Pensions (Increase) Bill. On that occasion I had the temerity to say that I agreed with everything you had said. I hope that I am not out of order in mentioning that, because, as has been mentioned previously, all hon. Members are aware of the tremendous interest which you take in this matter.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman may mention my past, but he must not make use of it.
  Mr. Loveys: I mentioned that my support of this sort of Measure has been a qualified one. I have two qualifications; first, the Bill does not go far enough in some spheres—although I appreciate that it is easy to say that more money should be provided—and, secondly, there is no sign at all of an overall change in the system so as to remove many of the anomalies which exist in the sphere of public service pensions.
  On the first point, I said that it is easy to say that the Bill does not go far enough. The Chief Secretary pointed to the enormous cost involved and said that about £25 million would be the additional cost in the first year. That is a lot of money, but it is all a question of priorities. I cannot help but feel that we have our priorities wrong in this country when we say that the apparently inevitable inflation, from which we have suffered for several generations, must inevitably drastically lower the living

  1397
  standards of many older members of the community, although that inflation does not affect the majority of younger people earning salaries and wages, for their earnings continually increase and more than offset the cost of living.
  I do not believe that it is inevitable. Why should all the financial advantages of an affluent society go only to those who work at present? I am sure that the younger generation, if they fully understood the position, would be prepared to see a larger share of the national cake going to the older members of the community. After all, we all hope to join them one day.
  Higher increases are necessary for the older pensioners because they are the people who most need them. I appreciate that in the escalator provision the maximum has gone up to a 16 per cent. increase, but that applies only to those whose pensions began not later than 1st April, 1957. Although 16 per cent. sounds a large increase—compared with the increase of 12½ per cent. on the last occasion—it is not large when applied to the very low basic pension of the older pensioner. Why does not the escalator provision apply to pensions which began before 1957? As the hon. and learned Member for Northampton said, there are so many non-pensioners—that is, non-ordinary retirement pensioners—in this category.
  Much has been said—so I will not weary the House by commenting at length on this issue—about the question of complete parity. My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings) was right to explain exactly what "complete parity "means, because many people are not clear about it. They think it means taking full account of the increase in the cost of living when, in fact, it means very much more. It is that every pensioner should be brought into line with those who are retiring at the present time. I do not agree with the idea of complete parity because the cost would not only be enormous but it would give one section of pensioners an advantage very much in excess of the vast majority of pensioners.
  Nevertheless, we must look further along the road towards complete parity. There must be a reasonable mean between complete parity and immutability—that dreadful word which has fortunately disappeared from the pensions scene. It is
  1398
  nice to have a Bill which does not speak about "immutability". I believe that that reasonable mean could be achieved by the new Conservative policy on public service pensions, which I hope we will introduce soon after the next General Election and which would bring all pensions up to the 1956 level. If that were done one would sweep away a large number of anomalies at one stroke.
  The need for an overall change in the system of allocating public service pensions is often raised. The new Conservative policy represents such a change, for it does away with many of the anomalies which exist in the unfortunate coding system which hits the older pensioner the hardest. It suggests a regular review as well as the idea of bringing pensions in at 55 instead of 60. This need to remove the present anomalies cries out for a changed system. It should not be too difficult for a regular form of review of Crown pensions to take place, so avoiding the necessity of the sort of Bill we are discussing.
  There must be a criterion—possibly the Ministry of Labour's wages index or something of that sort—so that we can remove the need for the continuous lobbying and intensive campaigning which goes on and to which these people who have given long service to the State are subjected.
  When reading what was said in past debates on Pensions (Increase) Bills in the OFFICIAL REPORT, I noticed that practically every hon. Member spoke of the need for a change in the system. Certainly not one hon. Member opposed that suggestion. It is because of this and because of the obvious feeling in the House today that there is need for a new system for public service pensioners that I hope the Government will give an assurance that this matter is receiving their immediate attention.
  I am disappointed that nothing has been done by the Labour Government so far to go along with the will of the House in this matter. With that reservation, and with the reservation I mentioned earlier—that not enough has been done to help the older pensioner—I am glad of this opportunity to welcome the Bill.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Having listened to all the speeches made today, I am left with two reflections,

  1399
  both of which are rather melancholy. The first is to note how good a short period of opposition is for the reforming zeal of the Conservative Party. There is an old rhyme which starts, "The Devil was sick, the Devil a saint would be". That seems appropriate now.
  From 1952 through to 1962 we had Pensions (Increase) Acts from Conservative Governments. Apart from the introduction of the escalator principle, they ran along the same basic line. Now, apparently, it is to be different. Proposals for reform which were contemptuously tossed aside when they were in Government have now become the spearhead of their attack on the Labour Government. I do not find this convincing or a good exercise in political morality. That is why it makes me rather sad. Conversion always needs a decent interval of time if it is to win respect.
  My second melancholy reflection is that even my virtuous hon. and right hon. Friends at the Treasury have become far less fundamentalist as reformers since taking office. I hope that this is only a temporary lapse; there are years ahead in which they can make amends. I congratulate them on having produced this Bill so early in the new Session. I also warmly congratulate them on the early proposed date of implementation. That will be warmly welcomed throughout the country.
  I intervened today because I am particularly interested in the position of pensioners in the nationalised industries. As hon. Members who have attempted to raise this issue have discovered—and as I shall no doubt discover if I go too far—the Bill does not cover pensioners in the nationalised industries and, therefore, my comments on this issue must be very limited.
  The nationalised industries are not formally covered by the Bill, although, as I pointed out in an intervention earlier, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary must remember that, with the unfortunate exception of the railways, the nationalised industries do to a great extent follow suit in this matter. That means that the Bill creates a precedent over a wide sphere outside the public services as such I cannot then refer further to the problems of pensioners in the nationalised industries, except to
  1400
  say that those problems are similar to those faced by public service pensioners. While my remarks will be about public service pensioners, I shall at the same time be expressing the difficulties of the other pensioners.
  The public service pensioner devotes his life to the State or the community in the hopeful expectation that upon retirement his standard of living will not be too different from that which he enjoyed when in work. That is his expectation, and it is one reason why he goes into the public service, and perhaps at times receives a rather lower wage on a comparative basis with outside occupations.
  It is often said that nobody should expect to cushion himself against inflation, that one should cure it, but in a real world most people cushion themselves against inflation, at any rate during their younger years. As I am sure the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, Southwest (Mr. Powell) would be the first to emphasise, supply and demand helps the wage and the salary earner and an effective trade union does the rest. Increased prices help the businessman, and capital gains help the investor, but the pensioner, especially after he has been retired for some years, finds himself sinking lower and lower.
  I emphasise the phrase "after some years", because it is often argued that retirement pensions are related to final salaries or final wages, and hence, because of this arrangement, the pensioner shares the increasing prosperity in real terms of the rest of the community, but I suggest that everything depends on just when retirement takes place. Two people, while they are working, may have similar responsibilities and similar jobs, but there may be a gap of about eight years between their respective retirements. As a result, they will receive widely differing pensions and have widely different standards of living.
  It could be argued, and I think at one time it was, that an occupational pensioner contracted for a certain rate of pension and received it in sheer cash terms, but for a long time Governments of both the political parties have recognised that any such approach is much too rigid, and we have therefore had a series of Pension Increase Acts over the postwar years. I doubt—and I must say that

  1401
  I was surprised to hear the figures which my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary gave —whether the public service pensioner is compensated for more than about half the real increase in the cost of living on his own pension. My hon. Friend threw in the National Insurance Pension to improve the picture. That is a way of arguing it, but I think the figures given by my hon. Friend need a little more examination. I am very open-minded, and I was impressed by the figures, but I am still left with a feeling of doubt. I should have thought that with capital appreciation, and with the vast sums of money that are now invested to provide pensions in contributory schemes, or put aside out of public revenues for non-contributory schemes, it would be possible to change for all time the whole outlook on pensions and responsibility for them.
  Mr. Diamond: My hon. Friend has drawn attention to the form in which I gave information to the House, and I am naturally anxious to give information to the House in whatever form it is required. I think my hon. Friend is really asking for information as to the comparison between increases in pensions and rises in the cost of living, but taking account only of the Pensions Increase Acts and not of the National Insurance Pension as well.
  I can give as many figures as my hon. Friend wants, but I think it would be helpful if I said that if we include this Bill, but exclude the flat-rate addition for the over 70s in the 1962 Bill, and if we pay no attention to the increase in the National Insurance retirement pension, then, if we take 1956, we find that the cost of living has risen since then by 31 per cent. while pensions have increased by 35 per cent. If we take 1957, the cost of living has increased by 27 per cent., while pensions have increased by 30 per cent. Since 1958 there has been a 22 per cent. increase in the cost of living, but a 22·8 per cent. increase in pensions. The figures tail off after that. I can give as many figures as the House wants, but that is sufficient to indicate that the situation is very different from what my hon. Friend thought it was.
  Mr. Palmer: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I congratulate him on his frankness. I was left with the nagging
  1402
  doubt to which I referred, but I shall study the figures.
  The Government—and long may they continue in office—are making a brave attempt to keep productivity, pensions and incomes in step, and I hope that they will succeed, but, nevertheless, given full employment, I think that prices and incomes will rise in any event, and provided the process is controlled and real living standards also rise, I do not think that we have very much to worry about. I prefer this state of affairs to the deflation and the mass unemployment of the 'thirties, but it nevertheless seems unjust that pensioners should be excluded from these contemporary benefits of so called affluence.
  Perhaps they are not entirely excluded, but I think that they should be more fully included. A pensioner should not be excluded merely because his service to the community was given earlier in the time scale of existence.
  When one studies pension arrangements, one cannot help noting how often they are carefully organised to give the maximum standard of living at retirement, but after retirement there is very little in the average scheme which provides automatically for the maintenance of that standard. Pension arrangements and pension schemes should contain provisions to relate pensions throughout the life of the pensioner either to the current retirement salary, for his former job, which is sometimes known as the principle of parity, or to changes in the cost of living, which really means the principle of the regular review. My hon. Friend may not be aware of this, but in the nationalised electricity supply industry we have been looking very closely at these two possibilities. It is a joint operation between the unions and the Boards, and it would be a pity if the nationalised industries, or some of them, went ahead and left the general public service behind.
  The argument is used—and my hon. Friend used it earlier today—that such reforms would cost a lot of money. I accept only that it would certainly mean a new financial and actuarial approach. My hon. Friend said that this was not an opportune time for such a great change. Maybe, but I should have thought that there was still no doubt at all about

  1403
  the justice and desirability in principle of a new approach to pensions in an inflationary age and the sooner the better.
  I sincerely welcome the Bill. I am glad that it has arrived so soon. I hope also that my right hon. Friend, and my hon. Friends at the Treasury, will not too soon forget what they said about the reform of public service pensions as a system when in Opposition.
  6.40 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Morrison: In common with every other speaker I welcome the provisions contained in the Bill. It has the virtue of acknowledging the plight—and in many cases the hardship—of public service and Armed Service pensioners. Their case has been stated and restated on many occasions with force and justification.
  To some extent the Bill's proposals will help to overcome the immediate anxieties caused by the rise in the cost of living and, in particular, the violent rise over the last year, but in many ways this is a disappointing Bill. Granted it takes into consideration roughly the rise in the cost of living since the 1962 Bill, but there is no accounting for any possible future rise, and if the Government's record over the past year is anything to go by such a future rise could be steep, and almost inevitably will be so, judging by the figures both of production and of the 7 per cent. increase in earnings.
  It will also be disappointing to those who are covered by it, because it contrasts so much with Labour Party statements before the election and particularly at the time of the introduction of the 1962 Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) has already drawn attention to the things said then, and I have no intention of repeating them. Granted that the Chief Secretary has said that the Bill is merely a holding Measure; it appears that it has become another of Labour's "tomorrow" Measures.
  For how long will this holding Measure remain a "tomorrow" Measure? Shakespeare wrote:
  "Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time."
  Very likely we shall not have to wait that long, for the next Conservative Gov-
  1404
  ernment will introduce much more satisfactory proposals. Undoubtedly, the proposals which will have given greatest pleasure are those contained in Conservative policy, as described by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester, which, too, have been set out in the recently published Conservative policy statement.
  Whatever may be the views of hon. Members opposite, they can but agree that these Conservative suggestions are more far-reaching than, and are an improvement upon, today's Bill. In particular, among those recommendations I welcome the firm undertaking that a Conservative Government will undertake a review of these pensions at intervals of two or three years. This will go some way towards removing the constant fear that, as they grow older, people who are in receipt of these pensions may be subjected to a steady decrease in their standard of living.
  This proposal, coupled with the other proposals contained within our policy statement, contrasts very sharply with the lack of any basic reform in the Bill. The trouble is that the Bill resembles other Bills of the past. It makes no fundamental advance in the condition of public service pensioners. It merely adds a sum roughly equivalent to the increase in the cost of living in the preceding years.
  The pensioners' best friend is a Chancellor of the Exchequer who can manage the economy in such a way as to retain the purchasing power of any increase in pensions. We must hope for a better record from the present Chancellor in the future. It is all very well to speak with satisfaction of the increases proposed today. Should there be no review, or no increase for another three years, if the future performance of the Government is no worse—and we sincerely hope that it will be no worse—than it was in the last year, the cost of living will rise by 14 per cent. All the more important, therefore, that the Government should introduce at the earliest opportunity measures providing for a biennial or triennial review of the kind which was suggested back in 1962.
  Mr. H. Hynd: The hon. Member has referred several times to the increase in the cost of living over the last year. Why does not he refer to the increase in the

  1405
  cost of living over the last 13 or 14 years? What was the need for the 1962 Act, for example?
  Mr. Morrison: The hon. Member is mistaken. I said that this Bill takes into consideration the increase in the cost of living since the last Bill, but I also mentioned the fact that, as everybody knows, the sharpest increase in the cost of living has been in the last year. This lack of any proposal to introduce a biennial or triennial review is the Bill's greatest shortcoming. I hope that the Financial Secretary will be able to give the House a more definite idea as to when such a possibility will occur.
  6.47 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock: The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Charles Morrison) said that the Bill resembled other Measures which have been produced in the past. What he means is that it is a Tory Measure. That is my main criticism of it. This Measure is no improvement over the Pensions (Increase) Bill introduced by the Tories -in 1962. What has struck me very forcibly during the course of the debate is that we have the same play, the same script, and more or less the same cast. The positions have merely been changed around. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who was then on the Opposition Front Bench, is now on the Government back benches; you, Mr. Speaker, took a major part in the debates on the last Pensions (Increase) Bill and you are now in the Chair; and the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) has been sitting through the debate, mute but not inglorious, on the Government Front Bench. Only my stage directions have remained the same for the time being. I hope that that will not be so for evermore.
  I want to remind the House of something that was said in the debate on the last Pensions (Increase) Bill which is very relevant to this one. The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) condemned that Bill as being "miserably inadequate" and said that it was
  "not based on any sound principle."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1962; Vol. 667, c. 713.]
  I wish to show briefly that this Bill, measured by the same standards, is also miserably inadequate and not based on any sound principle.
  1406
  The Chief Secretary made great play with the fact that this was the biggest and most costly Pensions (Increase) Bill ever. He is mistaken. If we measure these increases in real terms we find that they are not as good as those conferred on public service pensioners in 1962. Since he mentioned the figures in that Financial Memorandum I have been doing a little arithmetic and adjusting them for the changes in the cost of living since that date.
  The right hon. Gentleman will find that the total increases in the 1962 Bill added up to £23·5 million, made up of £17·7 million, £1·4 million and £4·4 million. These figures are taken from the Financial Memorandum of the 1962 Bill. In the present Bill the cost is estimated at £25T million, but since that date the change in the cost-of-living index has been 10 per cent. and therefore, making the adjustment, the real cost of the present proposals, in January, 1963, terms, is £22·6 million, which is £09 million less than for the previous Act. Therefore I do not think that the Chief Secretary should be so boastful about the expenditure on the benefits which he is offering to the public service pensioners.
  Mr. Diamond: I do not want to make a big point of this; I did not refer in my speech to other than the costliness, as the hon. Member will find, but the actual cost of the previous pensions was just over £22 million, which is on the wrong side of the hon. Gentleman's argument.
  Mr. Lubbock: We must compare like with like. I am comparing the proposal with the cost as estimated in the Explanatory Memorandum of the 1962 Measure with equivalent figures for this Bill. It is not possible for me to make a comparison on an actual basis because I do not know what this will be. I am saying that, on a like-with-like basis, these proposals are not as expensive as were the 1962 proposals, and I say that in support of my contention that this is a Tory Bill. It is only partial compensation for the cost of inflation. I shall deal later with this point and I hope that the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer), who queried the figures with the Chief Secretary, will be here when I come to that part of my speech.
  The chief criticism of the Bill, as that offered about the previous Measure, is

  1407
  that it is ad hoc and arbitrary. That was the complaint on both sides of the House last time. The present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster then called for
  "…a built-in provision for the future of their pension rights."
  The hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) spoke of
  "…a new, permanent and equitable basis for dealing with this problem in future."
  The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) mentioned the
  "universal agreement on both sides of the House that there ought to be some new method of tackling these problems."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th November, 1962; Vol. 666, cc. 1336–99.]
  I have deliberately chosen these quotations from members of the present Government, although they could easily be paralleled on this side of the House. It shows how wary the public should be of statements of this nature, because there is no sign of a long-term solution of the problem in this Bill which the hon. and right hon. Members opposite demanded over three years ago.
  As to the contents of the Bill, in one respect they are less favourable than those of the 1962 Measure since, as was pointed out on that occasion, additional payments were then made to the older pensioners which brought them up to more than the 16 per cent. maximum provided for in this Bill. Anyone who does the arithmetic will find that £500 a year is the borderline sum, because 12 per cent. plus £20 equal 16 per cent. of £500, and therefore those below that borderline of £500 will receive less under this Bill than under the previous Measure.
  It is true that the percentages are larger this time than last, but so also is the cost-of-living increase with which they are designed to deal. I must say to the Chief Secretary that the Treasury is a little disingenuous, because in the handout which I have before me it compares the increase in the cost of living between the operative dates of the 1959 and 1962 Acts with the increase in the cost of living between 1st January, 1963, and the date of introduction of this Bill. This is not a valid exercise at all. Once again let us compare like with like. We must compare the increase in the cost of living between the 1959 Act and the
  1408
  date of the introduction of the 1962 Act with its equivalent this time.
  If the Chief Secretary will look back on what was said by the right hon. Member for Altrincham (Mr. Barber), who was Financial Secretary in those days, he will see that he said that the rise had been just over 9 per cent. at the time of the introduction of the 1962 Measure whereas today it is 10T per cent. Therefore, the five most recently retired groups mentioned in the Bill who are to receive 2 per cent., 4 per cent., 6 per cent., 8 per cent. and 10 per cent. increase respectively will be worse off after receiving their increases than they were on 1st January, 1963, because of the increase of 10T per cent. in the cost of living since that date. Again I make no allowance in these calculations for any inflation that takes place between last mid-October, for which the cost-of-living index figure is last available, and the coming into operation of the present Bill, which I suppose will be on 1st January, 1966, if the Government adhere to the timetable of the last one.
  It is not with the most recently retired groups, however, that I and other hon. Members who have spoken are mainly concerned. As the hon. Member for Devizes said, the longer one has been retired, the worses off one becomes. I cannot accept that figure of a 16 per cent. increase for all pensioners who retired before 1st April, 1957, as being at all adequate. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton said that he thought that he had committed his party to the policy of parity, and the Prime Minister said during the last election campaign that
  "Pensions will be reviewed so that they will keep their full purchasing power instead of being eroded as they have been in recent years."
  I want to know what the Government's view is now on this matter. Do they stick by an undertaking which the pensioners thought they had given during the election, or have they now some other policy? Perhaps they have adopted the Tory policy of periodic grudging handouts based on no objective standard that I can see—a policy, which I am glad to say, the Tories have rejected now that they are in Opposition. I agree with the hon. Member for Bristol, Central that this is the kind of thing that makes

  1409
  people cynical about politics and politicians.
  In connection with the policy of parity which I thought the Labour Party had adopted at the time of the last election, I am extremely disappointed to note that the Money Resolution has been rigidly drawn so that discussion of parity in Committee appears to be stifled. It is important, therefore, that we should have an answer on Second Reading to this question so that we may know where we stand in case we are not ingenious enough to get round the words of the Resolution later. I agree for once with the Tories. I would not expect that the Government could concede full parity at once, in the light of the general economic situation.
  We have been told that the cost of parity throughout the public service would be £100 million, but a start could have been made in the way I first suggested last July. I am pleased to note that the Tory Party have since adopted that suggestion that the pensions of those who retired before 1st January, 1956 should be brought up to the level applicable at that date, adjusted for the subsequent Pensions (Increase) Acts. Since the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) was not able to give the cost of this proposal, I can tell him now that he will find it in an Answer given to me by the Financial Secretary on 5th February last. It amounts to £7 million. This is a modest sum, but it would be an earnest of the Government's intention to introduce full parity at the earliest possible opportunity, and it would do what we all want, that is, give the largest increases to the persons who retired a long time ago, particularly to those who will come under the Royal Warrant if we are to follow suit with proposals to be made on that later.
  The hon. Member for Worcester discussed the idea of a pensions review every two years. I have already reminded the House that, when my noble Friend, Lord Wade, put this forward on 20th November, 1962, when he was a Member of this House, it was pooh-poohed by the Tory Party who said that it would not work, would only introduce one other stage in the machinery of granting pension increases, and the House would still have
  1410
  to be the final determining body for any increases paid to pensioners.
  What is to be the criterion for the increases which the Tory Party propose? If it is to be the cost of living, then, as the Chief Secretary pointed out, some pensioners will be worse off under a review than under the Pensions (Increase) Acts. I do not think that the proposal would entirely commend itself to pensioners on that account. I should much prefer the Government to adopt the policy which is called dynamism, that is, that pensions should be upgraded in line with the current salaries of public servants in the equivalent grade. If we could agree on this principle, it would enable us to take these pensions increases outside Parliament atlogether, thus saving Parliamentary time as well as guaranteeing public service pensioners against the effects of inflation.
  When this proposal has been advanced in the past, it has been asked why one should do this for public servants when it is not as yet a common provision of private occupational pension schemes. The answer is that we have already gone some way towards the adoption of my principle, and it has been recognised that comparisons with private industry should not be made because of the very different conditions of employment and remuneration in the public service. In addition, the Labour Party is committed by its election pledge, which, I think, was made expressly in a letter from the chairman of the National Executive of the Labour Party to the chairman of the Officers' Pensions Society dated 14th September, 1964:
  "Pensions will be linked to earnings. This link will mean that pensioners are not only compensated for rising prices but also receive their full and fair share in rising national prosperity."
  Nothing could be plainer than that. This is why I ask the Chief Secretary to say whether it is still Government policy even though it cannot be done at this stage.
  I come now to the people who have already retired and who return for a further period of service. It has been pointed out already that Clause 2 does not help them at all. I refer again to the speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in the Second Reading debate on the last Bill on 9th November, 1962. He explained the grievances of

  1411
  these people in lucid terms, showing that the re-employed pensioner could not draw more in pay and pension than he was receiving in salary at the time of his retirement, this being covered by a provision in the Superannuation Act, 1834. The result is that, during the period of his re-employment, the pensioner receives neither the benefit of any pay increases which are awarded nor any pension increases either. The right hon. Gentleman said that they ought at least to have one or the other, for they otherwise have no redress for the rise in living costs during the period of their re-employment.
  I make a special plea to the Chief Secretary on this point. The National Plan forecasts a shortage of 200,000 workers by 1970. The best way of closing this manpower gap is certainly not to discourage retired public servants from coming back and doing a further period of work, perhaps in another field of employment.
  In short, the Bill is a Tory Bill. It does nothing to remove the long-standing grievances and anomalies which have been discussed in the House on many occasions. It fails to live up to the precise undertakings given by the Labour Party at the last election or to the expectations which they arouse in pensioners, which probably gained them thousands of votes and, as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton said, several seats. It now appears that these promises to public service pensioners were a shabby fraud and there was never any intention to honour them if Labour was returned to power. I am only sorry that my hon. Friends and I have no opportunity to register our disappointment and disapproval in the Division Lobby tonight.
  7.6 p.m.
  Mr. Paul Dean: I agree with the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) when he draws a comparison between this Bill and the 1962 Bill and points out that any pensioner on a pension of less than £500 will receive less under this Bill than he did under the 1962 Measure. I shall return to that point later.
  We are grateful to the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer) for his talk about the reforming zeal of the Tory Party. That is a very good phrase and absolutely true.
  Mr. Palmer: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I was using it ironically.
  Mr. Dean: Yes, but I can only repeat that it was a very good phrase, ironical or not. It is one which I shall adopt and one of which the hon. Gentleman will hear a good deal more in the future from this side. In fact, considerable progress was made by the Tory Party. The escalator principle was introduced. The flat-rate addition at 70 was introduced. We have now gone on to put forward new proposals to meet new situations. One of the reasons why hon. Members opposite are so sensitive is that we have produced our new ideas—my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) deployed them earlier—whereas the party opposite seems to have no new ideas on the subject at all, at least for some years to come.
  I take, first, the position of older pensioners, those on the smallest pensions and those who retired longest ago. I welcome the Bill as far as it goes, but it does not deal adequately with these people who are the ones most in need. I quite accept that there is a 16 per cent. increase for pensions beginning on or before 1st April, 1957, but we on this side, together with some hon. Members opposite, very much regret the removal or, perhaps I should call it, the freezing of the flat-rate addition at the age of 70. I quite understand the Chief Secretary's explanation that the calculations in respect of the additional 16 per cent. will include the lump sum, but the overriding point is that a percentage increase, however large, gives very little help to those on the smaller pensions who are most in need.
  The smaller the pension, the smaller the actual increase. The advantage of the lump sum arrangement introduced in 1962, on the other hand, is that it gives a bigger proportionate increase to people on the smallest pensions. Although I understand the position as the right hon. Gentleman explained it, it is a most regrettable defect in the Bill that this valuable new introduction in 1962 to try to give additional help to those most in need has now been frozen for the future.
  As one hon. Member has pointed out, those whose pensions become due after the Bill will not get the increase at all.

  1413
  We shall find in future that at the lower end of the pension scale there are people relatively worse off under the new arrangement than they would have been under the 1962 Act. I very much regret this decision, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will think again about it in the light of the comments which have been made from both sides of the House.
  Inevitably there are anomalies and grievances left by the Bill. Every Bill which has been brought forward in recent years has succeeded in getting rid of some of the anomalies, and I admit that this Bill makes some progress in that direction. But many anomalies remain. There is the anomaly mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) about the non-pensioner, and there are anomalies about those living abroad and widows. I must be careful, Mr. Speaker, in talking about the widows because I may be ruled out of order, but surely the time has come when we should consider whether a one-third pension for a widow is adequate. We have voted ourselves as hon. Members a half-pension for widows. Is there not a case for looking very carefully at this provision, particularly in these days when many women are widows for many years? There are other anomalies in respect of widows, but I will not go into them in detail.
  Another anomaly concerns pensioners such as civil servants and teachers who are temporarily re-employed part-time and who suffer an abatement of their pension if their wages or salaries are increased.' I know that the arguments here are very finely balanced, but I wonder whether the point has been examined by the Government and, if so, what their conclusion is. Another question concerns unestablished service before 1949. Have the Government considered dealing with this problem and do they know the initial cost which would be involved?
  Another point of great importance which is not covered by the Bill is the transferability of public service pensions. I appreciate the point made by the Chief Secretary about the review which is going on, and I hope that this matter will be considered during the review. In these days we are talking about the vital need for employees of all kinds to be able to carry their pension rights
  1414
  with them when they change their jobs. There is a feeling in the public service that if a public servant leaves, he often suffers considerable loss of pension rights. If we are urging private industry to produce arrangements which will enable employees to take pensions with them when they transfer their jobs, surely we should expect the public service to give a lead in this direction. Has this point been considered? If so, what conclusions have the Government reached?
  I am extremely disappointed that the Government have not taken the opportunity to tackle the problem of public service pensions in a thoroughgoing manner. We have been promised major reviews and fresh thoughts. The Chancellor of the Dupchy of Lancaster has been considering this matter for more than 12 months. I am sure that there will be great disappointment, both in the House and outside, that no manifestations of this review appear in the Bill.
  I hope that the Financial Secretary in his reply will tell us how long this arrangement is to last. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Charles Morrison) mentioned this point. When are we to have the results of the long-term review of public service pensions? How long will the present arrangement continue? If it were not possible to have the results of the long-term review in time for the Bill, and if the Government are standing by the old arrangements, why did they not continue the arrangements for the over 70s which existed in the 1962 Act? If the Government are saying that they have not yet had time to think out a radical change in public service pension arrangements, surely they could have preserved the main features of the previous Act. One of those features, which many of us regard as of great importance, has in fact been frozen at the 1962 level. All hon. Members recognise that new thinking is required on this matter, particularly to try to find acceptable means of relieving hardship among those who retired longest ago on very small pensions.
  A number of hon. Members have mentioned parity, and I have no doubt that the Financial Secretary will say something about it when he replies to the debate. In my view, the most satisfactory and realistic way of dealing with the problem is the proposal which was put

  1415
  forward a few weeks ago in the Conservative Party policy statement to which my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester referred. Here is a realistic and reasonably inexpensive way of dealing with those cases in which the hardship is greatest. By bringing up to the 1956 level, with appropriate increases since, those who retired longest ago, we should deal to a very considerable extent with the hardship which exists, and we should do it for a very modest sum.
  The hon. Member for Orpington quoted the figure—which came from the Government—at about £7 million. No more than £7 million would be needed to deal with the heart of the problem for the older pensioners. I hope that even at this stage the Government will consider this modest addition to the Bill, because in the light of the Bill, the sum involved in carrying out this proposal would be less than £7 million. I do not know what the figure would be, but it would be extremely modest and certainly less than the £7 million which would have been the cost of the exercise before the Bill was introduced.
  I may be asked why 1956 is selected. The main reason is that it is broadly true that since 1956 the purchasing power of the public service pension has been maintained. We have had some figures from the Chief Secretary this afternoon which I am sure we all want to consider. I believe they will show that if one excludes the National Insurance pension— we are not considering that today; we are considering public service pensions—one will almost certainly find that those who retired longest ago have lagged behind the increase in the cost of living to a considerable extent. This is where inflation has bitten. Elsewhere, broadly speaking since 1956 the purchasing power has been maintained, and in some cases there has been a slight improvement.
  We have passed through three phases over the years. The earlier phase was one of immutability—that a pension once awarded remained unchanged. In days when the public service pensions may have been comparatively generous, that was an acceptable principle. We then moved to the idea that pension increases should assist those who were suffering real hardship. Since 1956 we have broadly accepted the principle that the purchasing
  1416
  power of these pensions should be maintained. I believe that the time has come to establish this as a recognised principle and as an immediate aim which we should try to achieve.
  It is said by some people that by at least maintaining the purchasing power of the public service pension we are putting the public service pensioner in a better position than people outside the service. There was weight in this argument at one time, but we are reaching the stage at which a substantial and growing number of people have private occupational pension schemes, and we hope to reach the day when everybody will have the chance to belong to such a scheme.
  In these days considerable efforts are being made in various ways to ensure that the purchasing power of the occupational pension is maintained. Before retirement it is comparatively easy and is provided by rising wages and, consequently, rising contributions to the fund. The increase in the scope of investment funds assists to deal with the problem. It is possible in some cases for occupational pension schemes to make from the contributions which are paid some provision for inflation after retirement. In endeavouring to establish this principle in an acceptable way in the public service, we are doing no more than is being done increasingly in a large number of pension schemes which are very similar to the public service pensions.
  Half a loaf is better than none. I welcome the Bill for what it does, but I very much regret that the lump sum provision for the over-70s has not been maintained. I also regret that the Government have not taken this golden opportunity to introduce more acceptable arrangements, particularly for those public service pensioners—the oldest of them, and those on the smallest incomes —whose need is greatest.
  7.19 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Cole: I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) when I say that I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House welcome the Bill as far as it goes. Many of us have the reservation that it goes nowhere far enough.
  I wish to refer to one point which has not been mentioned in the debate but

  1417
  which the Chief Secretary made in introducing the Bill. He seemed to think that in considering the Bill we must have particularly in mind that it affected 710,000 people. He seemed to regard that as a point, as it were, against the Bill and something to be viewed with caution. On the contrary, it is a reason why a Bill of this kind should be introduced.
  The Chief Secretary also said that we must have regard to the position of the taxpayers. That is true. But many of these pensioners are themselves taxpayers and have been for many years. I cannot think that considering the position of the taxpayers on the comparatively small sums we are dealing with now is justification for denying a person his entitlement to maintain his standard of life by way of a pension.
  Throughout the debate, starting with the right hon. Gentleman, hon. Members have talked about maintaining the purchasing power of the pension. The right hon. Gentleman gave resounding figures on this point and on including with it the public service pension. When challenged, he gave figures of the public service pension without the retirement pension being added. This leaves me unimpressed because I think that we should begin to think of these things from a new attitude. That attitude, I suggest, should be that of maintaining the position of the pensioner to a very large extent at the standard of life at which the average worker now lives as compared with 20 years ago.
  Why we tend to relegate pensioners to a standard which obtained when they were working but which no longer applies, I do not know. Here are nearly 750,000 citizens who served the nation well in the past—many of them are still doing work—who should share in the prosperity of the nation. I cannot understand the attitude that, if we maintain the purchasing power of the pension, we shall have done our job. It is not right. I do not think that the pensioners will accept it and it is not an attitude we can sustain.
  We have had nine Measures of this kind—they are mentioned in the Financial Memorandum—and six of them have been introduced since the war. On one of these earlier Measures, the present Chan-
  1418
  cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and I sat opposite to each other in Committee. We argued about figures then. But here we are in 1965 still on the same type of Bill. I suppose that we cannot expect an earlier date, but I regret that the Bill will not come into operation until 1st January. It is three years since the last Measure of this kind and during that time the position of the pensioners covered by the Bill has been getting steadily worse financially. Let us also spare a thought for those who have retired since 1st April, 1964, for they will get nothing from the Bill.
  How long will it be before pensioners get some benefit from the results of the review on which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is engaged? We have often asked about this review and when it comes I hope that it will incorporate the principle that no longer will it be enough merely to maintain the purchasing power of the pension but that we must also take into account the affluence we are all supposed to enjoy.
  It is obvious that the Bill is in this form because the review is coming forward. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is not here. I have great respect for his integrity and I would like to remind him that all the time the pensioners are living at an insufficient standard. They are not likely, as far as I can see, to get from the Government the benefit of the beneficial reforms which my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) said would be Conservative policy when we are returned to power, which will not be at a very distant date.
  Like its predecessors, the Bill is an entirely mathematical process. It gives the maximum figure of 16 per cent. increase. We are glad that this is particularly helpful to those who have been retired the longest. But where did the magical figure of 2 per cent. a year come from? The cost of living does not always go up according to a mathematical scale. In some years it goes up more than 2 per cent. and in some by appreciably less— although not often. Surely it is not beyond the ingenuity of the Treasury to try to make an escalation in the Bill comparable with actual increases in the cost of living year by year. If that had been done before, the pensioners would probably have been better off than they will be

  1419
  after being granted this arbitrary arithmetical figure in some cases of 16 per cent. which is the maximum increase.
  No one seems to have mentioned so far in the debate the increase of 6d., approximately a 6 per cent. rise from 7s. 9d. to 8s. 3d., in the standard rate of Income Tax. Quite a number of pensioners pay Income Tax. Whether that has been taken into account in the pension escalation process I do not know.
  Then there is the question of the particular age of 70. The right hon. Gentleman explained that this age line is not in the Bill but he did not offer any reason why it has been dropped. Are the Government out of sympathy with those who have been retired the longer? Do they not think that those over 70 are entitled to a little extra? To talk about the present extra percentage applying to the extra addition under the 1962 Act is begging the question. I feel that a person over 70 needs a little more help and comfort. Indeed, this principle is recognised throughout the National Insurance Acts. In these, whenever there is any question of escalation of pension as regards men 70 is the particular age. Why does the Bill seek to throw that principle over? It presages rather badly for the review.
  The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) and other hon. Members have referred to the position of those on public service pensions who do not draw the retirement pension under the National Insurance Acts. I want to refer to people who do not draw either the public service or the retirement pension and for whom benefit could have been given under the Private Member's Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) in the last Session but which, by means of Parliamentary manoeuvring, never got off the ground. I hope that these people will not be overlooked in the review. If ever there was a section of the public deserving the sympathy of all parties, it is the ladies and gentlemen who, because of the fortuitousness of date and age were not able to come under the National Insurance Acts.
  I repeat that the Bill is all right as far as it goes. I hope that its paucity
  1420
  of generosity is an indication that the review which we have been promised for 12 months will come at an early date. There is not much consolation in the Bill for the pensioners and I hope that we shall get rid of the system of taking these regular triennial and biennial Bills in order to bring these pensions up to date. It should not be beyond our power to devise some means which will move pensions up automatically when the cost of living rises by a certain figure. We have been having these Bills regularly for 45 years and it is time for a change. However, I welcome the Bill and will give it my support.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: After listening to the cold and calculating speech of the Economic Secretary to the Treasury I watched a very wry smile on the face of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. It was such a combination of Yorkshire and Lancashire that I wondered if he was qualifying for becoming the "Minister of Stonewalling" or the "Minister of Longstopping". His colleagues will not say "Yes" and will not say "No". They just say "Interim".
  The Government are putting all the embarrassing pledges of the last election neatly under the carpet, including the £90 million for parity and the £700 million for the national minimum income guarantee, which would have been well above existing pension rates. Then the Economic Secretary has the audacity to attack my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) because he advocates proposals which at the most would cost £7 million. What hypocrisy! What audacity! Attack certainly is the best means of defence. We heard this not only from the Economic Secretary today but from the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night.
  Mr. MacDermot: To whom is the hon. Gentleman referring? There is now no Economic Secretary to the Treasury. We passed an Act of Parliament last Session abolishing the office.
  Mr. Ridsdale: I am sorry. I had forgotten the upgrading of all Ministerial positions since the Government came to power. It is the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to whom I am referring.

  1421
  This is the seventh Pensions (Increase) Measure since the war. The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) is quite right in saying that in real terms this Bill does not equal the Pensions (Increase) Act introduced by the last Government in 1962.
  When we introduced that Act we were accused of bringing in just another palliative, just another ad hoc Measure that was no lasting solution to the problem. That was the sort of description applied by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to it. He will now have to do better than that if he wants to qualify for the title of "Minister of Longstop-ping". For this Bill is just another palliative, another ad hoc step and only just keeps up with the very steep rise in the cost of living—10 per cent.—since the 1962 Act. That is 2s. in the £.
  With wage increases well ahead of productivity, the Bill does little to protect the public service pensioner from the steep rises which are bound to be ahead. Let us make no mistake—the Chief Secretary and the other Treasury Ministers know very well that the lower wage earners and the pensioners are now being hit very hard by the already sharp increases in prices which have taken place, increases which the Chief Secretary, the Financial Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer know are likely to be even more severe very shortly.
  I am sorry that the Government have not been able to do more, particularly after all their promises at the last election. In the light of the reality of those promises, what hypocrisy was the proposal for a national minimum pension well above existing pension rates! What hypocrisy was the promise of parity! No wonder it has been pushed into the background. What a different proposition this is—£19·9 million proposals plus £5·5 million for the Armed Service pensioner —especially when on 11th September, 1964, the Prime Minister said of public service pensions:
  "We have on a number of occasions given a pledge that these will be reviewed so that they will keep their full purchasing power instead of being eroded as they have been in recent years."
  It is no wonder that when I tried to question the Prime Minister on this subject he passed the Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  1422
  The Bill does not do very much to help that class of pensioner which the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) mentioned in his speech in 1962, first, those public servants who cannot reckon for superannuation their temporary or unestablished service and, secondly, those who are re-employed pensioners, pensioners who are retired and then brought back for a further period of service. When is something to be done for those pensioners?
  I know that I can refer to this subject only briefly and must be careful about saying this, but I hope that I can join forces with the hon. Member for Accring-ton (Mr. H. Hynd) in a deputation to the Chief Secretary, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Chairman of the Railways Board about help for the railway superannuitants, especially those not in receipt of National Insurance pension. I know from my own personal experience how hard this is hitting some of the more elderly of the railway superannuitants. I will not go any further on this now, because I know that you, Mr. Speaker, were yourself ruled out of order in the debate in 1962.
  I do not want to be drawn into the argument between the extreme of parity on the one side and immutability on the other, but time and again when in Opposition right hon. Gentlemen opposite said that there were strong grounds for regarding some relationship between pensions and current pay as a more satisfactory basis for the adjustment of pensions than any of the other criteria which have been mentioned. If that had been their policy, it would have taken much bigger increases than those promised in the Bill to bring past pensions up to the level of currently awarded pensions for comparable grades and length of service.
  For the seventh time this is a pragmatic approach not related to any principle. Cannot we find something better which will give greater certainty to those concerned? I welcome the fact that my own Front Bench has suggested reviews and I hope that they will be biennial and not triennial. The problem is how far we are prepared to go to keep the pensions in line with rising levels of income and standards of living. Time and again over the years since 1945 the pensioner

  1423
  has fallen behind because he has no employer to threaten, no arbitration tribunal to go to and no court of appeal. He can only look to pressure through the House and through his association. I pay tribute to the many retired civil servants who have worked very hard in their associations to bring to the notice of M.P.s the plight in which many of them found themselves. It is only through M.P.s that they can redress their grievances. Every time we repeat the dreary process, while all the time the position of the pensioner grows relatively worse.
  If an incomes policy means anything, some place for the pensioner must be found. We know that it is the poor universal pensioner who invariably is the first to foot the bill when wages get ahead of productivity. He pays for the unofficial strike and for the over-zealous trade union leader. He more than anyone else has a built-in interest in the stability of prices and the strength of sterling. Yet every time a Measure like this comes up, we fight shy of building into our fiscal system measures to act as a brake against inflationary policies.
  In this Keynesian age, when we do not have the harsh other brakes, would it not be a good thing if there were at least some discipline and some brake which could be applied to the spending Departments, which are invariably inclined to get ahead of what the country can afford and which by that process devalue our currency and make it much more difficult to keep purchasing power what it should be? We could do it if we protected the purchasing power of the pensioner more. I would like there to be a special representative of public service pensioners on the National Incomes Commission. Who now represents their interests on the Commission? The pensioner is entitled to his share. Up to now, he has paid the most and received the least.
  Those of us who have a number of Armed Forces and public service pensioners in our constituencies know how anxious the position is. In my constituency especially I have old retired postmen, policemen, and railwaymen, teachers retired on the meagre Burnham scale and widows. The benefits which they will receive from the Bill will be small, because the percentage increases will be
  1424
  increases on small pensions. Nevertheless, I know that they will be truly grateful even for these small mercies.
  But this issue is now becoming a challenge to both sides of the House. In Government or in Opposition, I am certain that we cannot allow the present system to continue. It is demoralising and mean to those who have served their country with brave, loyal and skilled service. If we expect such service and standards in future, it is imperative to alter the system which has been with us for so long. There are overwhelming grounds for accepting the principle of some fixed relationship between pensions and current pay as the basis for the adjustment of pensions. The Government know it; the Opposition know it; the country knows it. It is high time that we carried out such a policy.
  7.48 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Kershaw: May I say how much I admired my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) for being able to inject such fire and enthusiasm into a debate about what is obviously a rather dreary little Bill? It is a funny little Bill which we have been discussing this afternoon. We had hoped, as some hon. Members have said, that the next time we came to discuss this subject we would have something more interesting to debate. Some of us were not too happy in 1962 when we were on the Government benches and the then Government introduced a sort of holding Measure such as this. Some of us expressed that view, too. It is rather disappointing, after more time has elapsed and after a General Election, with all the brave promises which both parties make, that we should be back to the same dreary round again and, as has been said, with a Bill which is slightly less favourable to the pensioner than the Bill which we were last discussing.
  As it is so limited in scope, I need make no apology for trudging over much the same ground as other speakers have covered. It is common ground that we have not a Bill which implements the promises made by the party opposite at the General Election. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has said, in a letter which has now become public, that one of the things to which he looked forward was the public service pensioners

  1425
  having their pensions linked to some common economic indicator. There is nothing about this in this Bill, but this is not to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is not taking that into consideration in his review which will come forward. It may be that that is the way he is thinking. If that is so we shall perhaps have a chance to welcome it.
  But no one can pretend for a moment that this Bill has anything in it of this sort. The Prime Minister went on in his letter to say that he felt that pensioners should receive their full and fair share of a rising national prosperity. No one supposes they are doing that. The Chief Secretary, in introducing the Bill, only went so far as to say that the percentage rises were keeping pace with the cost of living. No one suggests that pensioners are sharing, in a true measure, in the rise in prosperity which those who are employed enjoy today. It is a fact, and I do not bother to quote the statistics because they are so well known to the House, that the level of wages has, percentage-wise, advanced much further than the level of pensions.
  During the election, we had promises from the party opposite that they were "favourably disposed" towards parity in pensions. "Favourably disposed" is an equivocal phrase, and I agree that caution was advisable in this regard. But it was clearly designed to give the impression that a move towards parity would certainly be in the programme of the Labour Party if they were elected, as they were.
  One argument put forward by the Chief Secretary was that the financial position of the country has changed. He did not say so in so many words, but he referred at some length to the financial position of the country, and there can have been no purpose in doing that unless the conclusion was to be drawn that the financial position of the country meant that its pension policy did not go as far as he would have liked. I rather doubt whether that argument can be substantiated, because the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, when he wrote that letter about full and fair shares in the rise in national prosperity, and when that election pledge was made that the party opposite were favourably disposed towards parity, was estimating that the
  1426
  trade gap would be £500 million in the last year.
  In a speech to the Trades Union Congress in September, 1964, he said that the trade gap would be £500 million. Afterwards he made these pledges about pensions. The trade gap was not that amount. It was only £412 million, so that he made the promises about pensions at a time when he even exaggerated the financial plight of the country. Thus, the insinuation by the Chief Secretary this afternoon that the financial conditions of the country in some way precludes the Government from going as far as they would like is not based on a sound argument.
  The consequencies of not fulfilling this pledge, as far as pensioners are concerned, are serious. All pensioners are less favourably placed than others who have wages and salaries. The effect of this Bill will be hardest upon the oldest of the pensioners. They will be the worst off. I know that their increase is, percentage-wise, the highest. But it is an increase on a small pension, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich has just said. There are others, in the category of the oldest pensioners, who will not share at all. The house already knows that there are today the widows of junior officers in the Services, over 1,000 of them, who have a pension of £188 a year. This qualifies them to go on National Assistance. They have had no increase in that pension and they will still be on National Assistance.
  Those who are on National Assistance, for whatever reason, and who are also pensioners, will find themselves, in their view, defrauded of their increase, because as their pension goes up, their National Assistance will come down. This is an inescapable consequence of putting up some of the basic pensions, but it always makes a most disagreeable impression on those on the receiving end. I have very often heard the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, among others, complain about this in previous debates about pension increases.
  I have one question about overseas pensioners. I understand that the increases do not normally go to overseas pensioners who were domiciled abroad at the date of their enlistment into the public service. I also understand that in some cases

  1427
  overseas pensioners domiciled abroad at the date of their enlistment but who now live here are not getting increases either. This seems to be an extension of a sort of judge-made law which has crept into the pensions code, on overseas pensioners. I would be grateful if the hon. and learned Gentleman could clear this point up.
  There are, then, these specific ways in which this little Bill falls short of what we were led to expect, and of what is needful. There is nothing in this Bill for the very old, for the over-70s. The Chief Secretary said that there was nothing special for the over-70s because the Tories did it. "It is all right now so we can go on and treat them just like the others," he said. I admit that we did a great deal for them but I should not think that the Chief Secretary should use this argument. He said later that it was not the age of a pensioner which it was necessary to consider, but the length of time a person has been a pensioner. In an intervention he said that the reason for not giving the old pensioner something special was that it was quite unnecessary to give them some increase which not all of them would need. He said it would be fairer to spread it about.
  That is a very strange doctrine to hear from an old Socialist lag. It is surprising because the whole of the Labour Party's philosophy about pensions is absolutely egalitarian, absolute equality; give to the rich the same pension as one gives to the poor, whether that harms the poor or not. Even if one cannot afford to give to both rich and to poor without cutting the pension of the poor lower than it should be. Whether that alarms the person who chooses to save and who cannot nevertheless get any more than we give to the spendthrift; whether that alarms the person on National Assistance because his Assistance goes down because his pension goes up; that has nothing to do with it. Everybody must have the same. It is a surprising argument to hear from a Socialist spokesman, that we should not give to the over-70s because all of them do not need it. Well, times change and we must take things as we find them and perhaps we will hear in the review that the basis of the pension policy of the party opposite is going to be given only to those who need it and not to everyone. If this is so I
  1428
  can assure the Chancellor of the Duchy that, in principle, he will have the support of the people on this side of the House.
  This Bill falls short because it does not give the public service pensioner these increases at 55, especially the Services and police. These are very often compelled for health or other reasons to retire before they get to 55, often before they get to 50. For a person to have to wait sometimes 10 or 15 years for the increase in pension while it is difficult to get another job is a hardship and an injustice. I should have hoped that, as we propose, these increases would apply at 55 and not 60.
  Figures have been bandied about on the cost of parity. Certainly parity at the present level is, I admit, pie in the sky. I understood from an Answer which the Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Navy gave me not long ago that if it were extended, not only to the public sector, but to the private sector, which is logical, parity would cost about £1,000 million a year. This is a great deal of money, and I suppose that nobody should idly recommend increases which would involve such sums. But parity up to the 1956 level, especially for certain classes of pensioner, would cost only £5 million. It would not cost very much more than that for all Service pensioners. I should have thought that a gesture towards the goal of parity which was dangled so provokingly before the electorate by the Labour Party at the election should have been made.
  It would not be necessary to recast the whole system of pensions to introduce these substantial, but not fundamental, changes in the public service pensions system. I regret that the Bill does not deal with any of the three matters that I have mentioned.
  Some of my hon. Friends wished that a biennial review could be introduced. If we are to have a review every two years, the pension might as well be linked to the cost of living, thus saving constant reviews. However, that is a matter of opinion.
  During the election the Labour Party raised the hopes of old people who have fears about their future very much in their hearts. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite dangled these hopes before

  1429
  them and no doubt they won many votes for the Labour Party. The conclusion is—and the old people will come to this conclusion as well—that the Bill is a repudiation of the pledges which hon. Members opposite made 18 months ago.
  8.2 p.m.
  Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: As I think that I have as many pensioners in my constituency as any hon. Member, I am very grateful to have this opportunity of putting one or two points which have occurred to me and which have been put to me by my constituents arising from the Bill. Earlier today I asked the Chief Secretary whether he could explain how it was that people who retired in 1957 were not in a much better position than people who retired for example, in 1950. The right hon. Gentleman explained to me that people who had retired earlier were brought up by earlier arrangements to the 1957 level. I did not understand what he said, and I should be much obliged if the Financial Secretary would explain the point to me.
  Perhaps I could put the matter clearly by quoting a letter on this point which I happen to have with me. It says this:
  "It is grossly inequitable that a man who retired in 1957 on a pension very much higher than one who retired in, say, 1950 should receive the same percentage increase. To carry back the 2 per cent. differentials even as far as there was anyone alive to benefit would surely be insignificant financially and would benefit most those for whom the scheme is really intended."
  That constituent feels that, as the Bill deals with pensions which started in or before 1957, the man who retired in 1960 cannot be brought up to the same level as one who retired in 1957.
  Mr. MacDermot: Perhaps I can be of assistance to the hon. Gentleman. It is very difficult to generalise in matters like this, but in so far as it is legitimate to do so I think that one can say that the effect of what I may call, roughly, the flat-rate increase basis of the pre-1956 Acts was to achieve, very broadly, a levelling of pension up to 1956. After that came the percentage increases. Of course, there are exceptions and it may well be that the hon. Gentleman's constituent is an exception. These people naturally feel strongly about the matter. But the point which I think my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary was
  1430
  making in seeking to answer the hon. Gentleman was that the effect of the earlier Acts was to achieve a very considerable measure of equality.
  Mr. Godman Irvine: I am very much obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. The impression which I had of what happened before 1957 was that somebody who started with a minute pension had been given a percentage increase on a not very great sum which did not bring him up to anything like the level of people who retired subsequently.
  I cannot get out of my mind an occasion when I found in my constituency somebody who was invalided out of the Navy in the Boxer rebellion in 1899. He had been given percentage increases of very tiny amounts which were so small that they were ludicrous. If the Financial Secretary can assure me that that is no longer the case, no one will be happier than I. But my constituent does not appear to think that that is the case. I should like the Chief Secretary to look at the way in which the Bill starts at 1957 to see if there may be points such as the one which I have put which are valid and which require further attention.
  The second point which I wish to put to the Financial Secretary briefly is this. There are people who have served their country in one way or more throughout their lives. For example, I have a constituent who was a Post Office engineer up to 1933. Then he joined the Royal Engineers and served for a period of about 12 years. Immediately on his discharge from the Royal Engineers he went back to the Post Office engineers, having obtained an exemplary character from the Royal Engineers. He spent the rest of his working life with the Post Office engineers. He is advised that when he gets his pension, owing to his broken service in the Post Office, he is not in the same position as he would have been had he served throughout his working life in the Post Office. That is a matter which should be looked at, because this man has served his country just as well as a man who remained either in the Royal Engineers or in the Post Office engineers.
  I should be most grateful if the Financial Secretary could help me on another point. It concerns Clause 2. The

  1431
  Financial and Explanatory Memorandum says that Clause 2
  "ensures that in all these cases the ultimate pension, including pensions increase, provides an appropriate reflection of the further service rendered."
  The type of case which arises is this. Someone serves until a particular time when he is supposed to retire but continues in service in perhaps another capacity for a year or two and finally retires five or six years later.
  I have a case with me in which precisely that happened. It concerns a man who retired in 1957 after 40 years' service. Owing to staff shortage, he was persuaded to serve another year which gave him an entitlement to pension of 41/80ths of his salary. Having retired after 41 years' service instead of the normal 40 years, he took another appointment in the same department as a clerical officer and was given further extensions of his pension rights. Having served in that way for a further three years, he finally retired. The result of his retiring three years later was that when he retired in 1960 he was given only a 4 per cent. increase on his previous level instead of what he says should have been a 10 per cent. increase if he had been left on the old basis. If his calculation is correct, he is receiving £648 19s. 8d. instead of what he feels should be the right pension of £692 13s. 3d. if he had not served four years longer.
  The point which he raised and about which there has been correspondence with the Treasury concerns the original way in which reckonable service was counted. If I understand it, Clause 2 is now designed to deal with precisely that. Perhaps the Financial Secretary could explain to me and my constituent precisely how it will work, because it does not seem very clear either to him or to me. I took an opportunity of sending the Bill to him. After quoting certain parts of it to me, he says:
  "Can you endeavour to get this detailed in such a way as to leave no loophole to the Treasury to make any petty economies at the cost of people like myself who have no power to appeal except through their Parliamentary representative?"
  So if the Financial Secretary could clarify that issue it would help not only my con-
  1432
  stituent but also me, because this is a point which I am running across on a number of occasions.
  I should like the Financial Secretary also to help me on another point. I have been pressing another Department, the Colonial Office. There was a rumour that those who were appointed before 1st April, 1930, to serve were able to benefit from pension increases but those who have been appointed after 1st April, 1930, are not eligible to receive the supplements from these increases. By a strange coincidence I have had a number of cases of precisely this happening. Indeed, other difficulties have arisen from pensions where there are people who have been recruited, perhaps through the Crown Office or the Crown Agents, for service overseas with local authorities and other bodies. There is a difficulty which arises sometimes. They are appointed after a certain date and they do not get the benefit of the increases which they feel they should have. Not only do they suffer considerable difficulty and hardship as a result, but there is also the question of their widows, and the widows of these people are in a much more difficult position.
  Another point I should be obliged if the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would deal with is one to which the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) referred briefly, the question of people who serve abroad or who serve in a number of ways in this country and who sometimes retire at a rather early age. Abroad, people serve in the tropics and not only find that their conditions of service are such that their retirement is, perhaps, earlier than if they served here, but, quite apart from that, the conditions under which they serve sometimes make it necessary to have early retirement. They find that the age limit of 60 is particularly hard. It is hard on people who have retired long before they are 60, perhaps for ill health or for a variety of other reasons.
  The final point which I would like the Financial Secretary to have a look at is one I have come across on a number of occasions in my constituency and which causes a great deal of difficulty and hardship. It is the case where somebody has served, for example, in one part of the Commonwealth and is there recruited to serve in another, and because they are

  1433
  recruited abroad and sent direct to the next place they are not eligible for any of the arrangements which we are discussing today. Had they come back to this country and been taken on here their situation would be quite different. There are a number of cases where precisely that sort of difficulty has arisen, and I have been involved in a great deal of correspondence on this topic, having had so far no satisfaction, and I think there is a very real ground for complaint here for the Financial Secretary to look at.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Rhodes: I intervene for just five minute!) in this debate. I have been sitting here for about an hour and heard a battery of speakers from the other side. My constituency contains the headquarters of the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, and quite apart from the normal number of public service pensioners that we find in every constituency I have perhaps a disproportionately large number of them. I have discussed the implications of this Bill with them, and although I think there would be some disappointment in terms of the total sum involved, I am sure that this Measure will be widely welcomed by the public service pensioners who live in my constituency.
  The main burden of the argument raised by three of the speakers I have heard this afternoon is that the Government have not been generous enough. This has been a blanket criticism, and there have been particular criticisms of particular ways in which, it was argued, the Government should have been more generous. It seems to me always in these matters that the degree of generosity of the Government is not something which can be measured in absolute terms. It is relative to the current economic position of the country and I would argue that, in terms of the economic situation which this Government have had to face during the period since the General Election, coupled with the legislative Measures which were taken in relation to pensions as a whole some time ago, this Government have shown an exceedingly sensitive conscience about the pensioners, and, indeed, this Measure is relatively generous. I believe it will cost about £20 million more a year.
  There was one point by an hon. Member opposite upon which I should like
  1434
  some clarification. He seemed to argue that these increases had been partly eaten away by earlier acts of the Government in relation to increasing the standard rate of Income Tax. I think I am correct in saying that before one can become eligible to pay and to suffer from this increase in the standard rate of Income Tax one would have to have an income of some £700 or £800 a year, and to be showing excessive concern for the position of pensioners on that kind of income is rather odd, I think. I am rather more concerned about those pensioners in my constituency whose income is much smaller than that, and many of them benefit substantially from this Measure.
  Another point raised by hon. Members opposite was that, of course, some part of this increase has been eaten away by the rise in the cost of living since last October. This is the current argument being peddled by Conservative spokesmen generally about pensions, that the pensions increases have been eaten away by the rise in the cost of living. This is patent nonsense. It is perfectly true, of course, that in the first six months of this Labour Government there was a quite sharp increase in the cost of living, although I am pleased to say that since last April there has been a marked levelling off in the cost of living, and if this is the effect of the policies carried out by the Government and an indication of the kind we may expect over the next two or three years, I would welcome it. I would go on to argue, if it were in order and if there were time, that a substantial increase in the cost of living in the first six months of this Government was very directly connected with the economic developments from the Government's predecessors.
  But it really is not true, and we cannot allow hon. Members to get away with it, that the whole of the increases in pensions carried out by this Government since the last election have been eaten away by the cost of living. It is perfectly true that some of this has been eaten away. I would certainly agree that pensions in future must be more closely linked with the rise in the cost of living than they have been in the last 13 years.
  There is one point which does trouble me a little. I have a number of pensioners who compain that they have not

  1435
  been able to draw increased benefits till they are 60. They would prefer to do so at 55. I think it is true in the public services generally that retirement pensions are drawable normally at the age of 60. I think that this also applies to Members of this House. No? Then I am wrong on that point. But I would not have thought this criticism valid except in the case of those who by the nature of their public service have been forced to retire early on the grounds of health, due to service overseas. I have a number of constituents who have retired largely through ill health contracted as a result of service overseas. I am not sure how this Bill covers them, but with this exception I would welcome the general improvement and I would welcome an improvement in this respect if necessary.
  There is one thing which was said by an hon. Member opposite with which I agree, that the bargaining strength of those who are retired is relatively weak, relatively low. It is perfectly true that they have no bargaining power any longer. Because there is always a tendency for the pensionable income gap, the gap between pensionable income and average earnings in industry and commerce, to widen, I think that a sensible policy would stop that gap from widening, and when the hon. Member said that we should seek increasingly to adjust pension income to average earnings in industry I would agree with him, although I think that if he was trying to make party political capital—I am not trying to do so—I could show many examples where such a gap was widening rather than closing in the last 13 years.
  I hope that with the erection of social security which the Government are undertaking attention can be given to this problem, but given the current economic situation, and given the circumstances in which this Bill is brought in, I would maintain that it is a relatively very generous Bill, and I think it is a Bill which will be welcome. When the economic situation improves, as I think it will as a result of the measures taken by the Government, I hope that this Measure will be looked upon as something of a temporary expedient, leading to far wider-ranging improvements in pension incomes for the public services and others in the years ahead.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: I apologise for not hearing a great deal of the speeches because I had a long standing meeting to do with the fishing industry, and I had to attend it, and therefore I have not been able to listen to a great deal of the debate.
  I hope I may be permitted just to draw attention once again to one or two points and particularly parity and the recruiting aspects of the problem. We all know of the differences there are, for instance, between the pension of the retired chief petty officer and that of a far more junior man, who is better off than his senior who had much greater responsibilities during his service. The effect of this is to cause the older men to dissuade their sons from going into the Service, and this is very important when we are recruiting, and it is a problem which should be looked at. I would like to take up the plea of thinking in future of the age 65 instead of 60. If and when there is a review I shall be pleased if this is considered.
  I hope the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Rhodes) will forgive me for not following him but this is not a matter for party political cracks. It is something far more important than that, and it concerns so many people in this country. Like many other hon. Members, I have many of them in my constituency, and I should like to press once again for consideration to be given to pensions being linked with the cost of living direct. I think this is the fairest and best way of dealing with the matter, because it would inhibit people who ask for large pay rises automatically if they thought this would cause a rise in pension to keep pace with the increase in the cost of living. As many hon. Members have pointed out, these poor unfortunate people have no great power themselves. There is very little they can do except bring their plight to our attention.It is then up to us to help them.
  We have heard lately, as a result of the unfortunate affairs in Rhodesia, about compensation which will be paid to civil servants who, by reason of the events in that country, will return home. There is another aspect of this which I wish to bring to the attention of the House. A friend of mine, who gave many years' valuable service in a senior position

  1437
  before the independence of Ghana, is now suffering through no fault of his own because of suddenly receiving a note from the Ghana Government saying, "You will have this much deducted from your pension". He has no redress at all. He is losing all the time and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it.
  I urge the Government to consider the plight of people who have given great service overseas, in Commonwealth and other countries. When this sort of thing happens to them—when, through no fault of their own, they are financially affected in this way; because they have lost their jobs as a result of a country becoming independent or whatever the case might be—Her Majesty's Government should consider the possibility of making up their losses so that they do not suffer. I welcome any increases in pensions, but I hope that the few points to which I have drawn attention will be considered, especially if and when a review takes place.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: As has been said a good many times during the debate, the Bill, with the exception of some minor though welcome features, is the mixture as at 1962. It sets out, in the same way as the 1962 Act, to allow for the fall in the value of money which has taken place since that Act came into force at the beginning of 1963. The extent of that fall has been approximately 10 per cent. Incidentally, about half that total fall took place since the change of Government a year ago.
  This erosion of about 10 per cent. in the value of their pensions has, of course, been suffered by all public service pensioners who were drawing their pensions at the beginning of January, 1963. However, the House will have noticed that, in common with the two previous Acts, that loss in purchasing power is not made good uniformly to all pensioners who have uniformly suffered it. On the contrary, while the so-to-speak average figure of a 10 per cent. increase applies to those who retired between 1959 and 1960. those who retired afterwards will have appreciably less than the loss in purchasing power made up: they will have to wait for further such Measures as this —if there are to be further ones—for that
  1438
  loss to be recovered in due course under what has been called the "escalator principle."
  On the other hand, those who retired before 1959–60, and who under this Bill will receive more than a 10 per cent. lift, are having made good to them the lag in adjustment of the purchasing power of their pensions on previous occasions. I was, therefore, interested and rather amused at the quite natural selectivity practised by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary when he intervened during the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer) and compared the total pension increases which various persons had received with the fall in the purchasing power of those pensions during the time that they had been in payment. The cases he took were of people who had gone on pension between 1956 and 1958. Of course, had he come further towards the present he would have found that the comparison was less favourable.
  Mr. Diamond: I said so.
  Mr. Powell: In that case we are ad idem.
  What is more important and what has been the burden of the majority of speeches today is that had the right hon. Gentleman gone back into time he would have found many instances, though not occurring uniformly, where a pensioner who had been on pension for a considerable number of years had suffered an erosion in the purchasing power of his pension which this Bill will not make good. It is there, among the pre-1956 pensioners, that the anomalies and injustices still exist which ought to be put right. Measures to do this would be a perfectly natural continuation of the successive improvements—not just improvements in detail but improvements in principle—which were introduced by Pension (Increase) Acts under the previous Administration.
  May I remind the House of what some of those were? The Pension (Increase) Act, 1956, removed the limitation of increases to the smallest pensions, which had been maintained up to that time. Then the 1959 Act removed the upper limit which, till then, had been kept on the amount of pension increases. And the 1962 Act introduced the feature which in this debate has been referred

  1439
  to with approval from both sides—the additional payments for the over-seventies.
  Thus, it would only be a natural continuation of this series of improvements in principle which we have seen in the last 10 years or so, to go further and to take steps to remove the anomalies and injustices which still exist.
  It was for that reason that, at the last election, the Conservative Party proposed that in future the increases should become payable not at age 60 but at 55—something which would be particularly beneficial to Armed Forces pensioners and to those classes of civilian public service pensioners who normally —indeed, almost invariably—retire before the age of 60 and, in many cases, live on their pensions before they reach 60.
  We believe that even that, although it would be important in its effect, is not sufficient and that the time has now come when yet a further step should be taken. We believe that this step should be, in effect—and this is the purpose of it—to eliminate the remaining anomalies among the pre-1956 pensioners.
  In theory, perhaps, this could be done by examining each pension or group of pensions and ascertaining the degree of erosion due to the long period of varying inflation which has elapsed in each case; but I think that it would be a more sensible and practical approach to this problem simply to put the pre-1956 pensioners on the 1956 basis and then apply the increases which have taken place since then and which are likely to take place in future. This, too, would manifestly be of particular importance to those in civil or military employment who retire relatively early, since it stands to reason that among the pre-1956 pensioners there must, on the whole, be more who are Service pensioners or pensioners from employments with an early retirement age than from employments where it is normal to retire at the age of 60 or after.
  These two measures, which we on this side believe are now fully due, would greatly help these important classes of pensioners. They are not measures which can be regarded as rash or ill-considered. I hope that when the Financial Secretary to the Treasury replies he will be able,
  1440
  as only he can with the resources of his Department behind him, to indicate the cost which would be involved at present in carrying out these improvements. The best estimate that I have been able to make with the resources available to me is that they could be achieved well within a cost of £10 million, and we on this side of the House attach concern and priority to this object such that we certainly would not allow £10 million to stand between us and the introduction of these important reforms which I stress again are a natural continuation and prolongation of a long series of improvements in principle of the treatment of public service pensioners which have taken place under Conservative Administration.
  The hon. Member for Bristol, Central quoted the old doggerel line about
  "The Devil was sick, the Devil a monk wou'd be;
  The Devil was well, the Devil a monk was he."
  and it struck me that the cap fitted precisely, but not on this side of the House; that it was on the other side of the House that the fit was exact; that it was on that side of the House where the vows which they made when they were sitting here had been so speedily forgotten; that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) observed at the beginning of this debate, if anyone had said a year or so ago that the Pensions (Increase) Bill which the party opposite would be bringing in now would take no account whatsoever of any of their professions and statements made while they were on this side of the House, he would never have been credited. Indeed, even against the background of the party opposite, their behaviour in this matter is a quite peculiarly flagrant and cynical disregard of the pledges which they have made.
  The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget)—[Interruption.]—[An HON. MEMBER: "Listen to the frogs."]—no, that would be —who explained to the House why he could not be with us at the close of the debate, when speaking in this House on 14th July reminded my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) of the history of the Byzantine General Belisarius, I reflected how appropriate that historical

  1441
  recollection was in the mouth of the hon. and learned Gentleman, for the House will recall the tragic end of that great General who, after serving through many years into old age his masters the Byzantine emperors, was eventually sent to languish, worse than on the back benches, actually in a prison in Constantinople. So it was very much Belisarius who was addressing us and reflecting on the consequences of the previous campaigns which he had undertaken as representing, and on the orders of, the leadership of his own party.
  He said, and one certainly cannot complain of either the clarity or the candour with which the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke in that debate of 5th March, 1964:
  "… what we can do … is to accept the principle of one pension for one service regardless of when it was rendered."
  That was a crystal-clear definition of the principle commonly known as parity. He went to to say:
  "That principle should be adopted."
  Then came the very interesting personal passage, where he said:
  "Perhaps I have no particular high personal ambition. I do not flatter myself that I have any great ability for a great rôle. Nonetheless, if, next year"—
  that would be in 1965—
  "I find myself at the Dispatch Box with the opportunity to announce the adoption by the new Government of the principle of one pension for one service, whenever it was rendered, I shall feel satisfied that my career has been worth while. There is nothing nearer to my heart than this. It is justice and real good sense and I believe that it would make a major contribution to our recruitment problem."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th March, 1964, Vol. 690, c. 1560.]
  An Hon. Member: And they cheered it.
  Mr. Powell: Yes, they all cheered.
  In case there should be any misapprehension about the circumstances in which, a few months before the General Election, the hon. and learned Member made that statement, he reminded the House on 14th December last that he had
  "had the task of being the spokesman for the Labour Party at the Dispatch Box on the last two Army Estimates and of making this pledge in most specific terms, which was that we would take the first opportunity to raise the pensions of the retired Service people to what they would have been had the man retired upon the latest pay scale."
  1442
  Once again that was a crystal-clear definition of what is commonly meant by parity. The hon. and learned Gentleman continued:
  "I was authorised to give that pledge, and one does not give a pledge of that sort in a casual way. It was discussed first of all, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs"—
  I think that since then we have had a change in the identity of the holder of that office—
  "who was at that time in charge of defence. It was discussed with the then Leader of the Party, Hugh Gaitskell. When I came to make the pledge at the Dispatch Box, the present Secretary of State for Defence was sitting beside me on both occasions. I had consulted him before speaking and he expressly approved what I had said afterwards.
  So far as I can see, this is as clear and emphatic a commitment as any party in opposition can make."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 14th December, 1964; Vol 704, c. 76.]
  I would respectfully agree with that: It could hardly be a clearer or more definite pledge.
  Mr. MacDermot: In the passage which the right hon. Gentleman has just read, very fully and very fairly, can he point to any words that constitute a specific pledge? All that my hon. and learned Friend said was that he personally was committed to it. He wanted to see it and he hoped that one day he would have the chance to announce it before the House. But he gave no pledge.
  Mr. Powell: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman think that someone standing at the Dispatch Box and speaking for his party—and the hon. and learned Member for Northampton was the spokesman for his party—can say, "This is the right and honourable thing to do and I look forward, if I have office in an Administration, to introducing it" without making a pledge on behalf of his party?
  Mr. Jennings: Does not the Financial Secretary agree that the specific pledge was contained in the words
  "I am authorised to give this pledge"
  by the hon. and learned Gentleman standing at that Box.
  Mr. MacDermot: He never said that standing at this Box.
  Mr. Powell: It so happens that fortunately we are not solely dependent

  1443
  even upon the extraordinarily—[HON. MEMBERS: "Fortunately?"] Yes, fortunately. Hon. Members opposite have the intention of getting out of this in any way they can. They thought they would get out of it if Belisarius was on the back benches. It is for that reason that it is fortunate that we are not wholly dependent upon the spokesman whom they sacked, for the validity of their undertaking or their views, and are not obliged to concern ourselves with the strange and rather shabby exchange which took place between the hon. and learned Member for Northampton and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour at the end of the debate on 28th July, when the Minister of Labour said:
  "there seems to be some conflict of opinion as to whether the pledge, or alleged pledge, was given with full authority."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th July, 1965; Vol. 717, c. 596.] That adjective is interesting—" with full authority ".
  However, I want to call other witnesses. I want to call as witnesses hon. Members, as they then were, of the Opposition who are now members of the present Administration, who have not been dropped, who have achieved, presumably, at any rate some part of their ambitions. First, let me look at what the present Minister of State for Education and Science, the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) said in the debate on the previous Pensions (Increase) Bill. He said:
  "The further back in time that payment of pension commenced, the larger is the gap of disparity."
  That is what I have been saying to the House. He also said:
  "Full compensation for the loss in real value of pensions is clearly not achieved even by the provisions of the Bill …"
  The hon. Gentleman was on to the point. He made it part of his case against the 1962 Act that full compensation for the loss in real value of pensions was not achieved the further back the payment of pension commenced.
  But the speaker who was really explicit in this matter was the right hon. Gentleman who is now Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who said in that debate
  "… in respect of each year that we look back, the pensioner is compartively worse off than the person of equivalent grade who retires subsequently."
  1444
  If he were as well off that would be once again what is known as the principle of parity.
  The right hon. Gentleman then went on to say:
  "Is that a fair or rational basis? Should a man who retires in one year have a life pension lower than the man who retired the year after? This is what the existing system results in."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th November, 1962; Vol. 666, c. 1334–95.]
  The right hon. Gentleman was asking questions. He was criticising the Bill. He asked whether it was fair or rational that in respect of each year that we looked back the pensioner was comparatively worse off than the person of equivalent grade who retired subsequently.
  What answer did the right hon. Gentleman expect to be given to that question? Was this a Latin interrogative num which expects the answer "No"? Was that the meaning that the right hon. Gentleman expected public Service pensioners to give to his rhetorical question? Did he imagine that the organisations which naturally study with care every word spoken on behalf of one party or the other on this matter would say, "There is one thing clear. The hon. Member for Sowerby is against parity."? Of course they would not.
  They would say "He is criticising what the Tories are doing. Why does he criticise it? Why is he saying, ' It is not a fair or rational basis.'? It is because it does not provide parity. It is because each year we look back the pensioner is comparatively worse off than the person of an eauivalent grade who retires subsequently". So, naturally, when they had heard what the hon. Member, as he then was, had to say about the 1962 Act and when they had heard what the hon. and learned Member for Northampton had to say in the debate of 1964 and when they read the sentences, which have been quoted in this debate from the Colonial Secretary and the Prime Minister, they naturally took that as a clear asseveration and undertaking by the party opposite that their policy was to introduce the principle of parity and they were in effect committed to doing that. If it was not intended to convey that, what was it all about? What was the point of the statement?

  1445
  In the course of this debate—the Chief Secretary, when he opened it, had a feeling that it might come to this—two subterfuges have been adopted by the Government to get out of their quandary. The first was to add in the social security benefits, to say that one is really not talking about public service pensions in isolation—that is not it at all—but about the total sums—
  Mr. Lubbock: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for intervening, but, before he leaves the subject of the undertakings; to public service pensioners given by the present Government, I want to ask him this question. Does he recall that, at the time of the last election the public service pensioners' organisation issued a leaflet to all its members saying that the policies of the Labour and Liberal Parties were quite satisfactory because they believed in parity? Was any denial of that statement issued by the present Government?
  Mr. Powell: That point had occurred to me, and I was coming to it a little later. Anyhow, a number of other people formed the natural conclusion and attached the natural interpretation to what hon. and right hon. Members opposite had been doing and saying. However, let us look at the argument which has been produced over and over again—I thought that the hon. and learned Member for Northampton tried to catch hold of it at one point—that we are not really talking about public service pensions in isolation but about the total sum which a person who has served the State receives in one form or another from the State. Putting it all together, adding the National Insurance pension to the public service pension, they say, it does not look all that bad; indeed, in many cases one can say that the total payments have increased by more than the cost of living.
  This is complete subterfuge and evasion. We are concerned with the duties and moral obligations of the Government towards people who have been their servants in respect of the payments promised to them for that service. This is a wholly distinct matter from any other payments or, for that matter, benefits of any kind which may be conferred upon them and upon others by
  1446
  State action. Hon. and right hon. Members opposite do not really believe this argument themselves. If they truly thought that they were entitled to add in the increases in National Insurance Pensions, why did they introduce a Bill designed almost precisely to counterbalance the fall in the purchasing power of the public service pension since 1962, considered in isolation? If they had really taken their own argument seriously, they ought to have taken those other benefits into account when deciding the increases which ought to be written into this Bill. Moreover, even if they were relevant, which they are not, these payments from other sources, these social security payments which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is reviewing and reviewing and reviewing, are in many cases not paid at all to public service pensioners, and certainly not paid to those who have suffered most from the long erosion of the value of their pensions.
  Then, as a last attempt, we are told about the Tory legacy and the economic situation. There is a simple question here. The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) has, in substance, already posed it. If they saw what the Tory legacy was —my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) made perfectly clear that they knew and, indeed, exaggerated it, for what it was worth—why were they not careful to explain that what they had said hitherto could not, for that reason, hold good, or, at least, that its execution must be indefinitely deferred? Then when they came into office, even if they had to say, "Circumstances are now different for the time being from what we expected ", they could still, and surely they should still, in honour have done what the hon. and learned Member for Northampton said—they should have reaffirmed in principle the pledge which they had given.
  I believe that the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke no more than the literal truth when he said that the Labour Party are in office today because of this pledge which they were understood to have given. I was very interested in the personal experiences which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence for the Royal Navy had at Brighton, Kemp-town. He reminded his hon. Friend the

  1447
  Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Hobden)—this was in the debate of 14th July—of the
  "unusually large number of public service pensioners he counts among his constituents in Brighton".
  The right hon. Gentleman continued,
  "As it happens, some of these constituents are well known to my wife and myself. He may not know that during the election, by helping with postal votes and transport, we claim to have contributed at least five pensioners' votes to my hon. Friend's slender majority of seven."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 14th July, 1965; Vol. 715, c. 742–43.]
  Let the House consider what would have been the attitude of those pensioners if they had known that within a year of coming into office the party would have repudiated the pledge of parity which had been given and which had been repeated on the party's behalf and would have introduced a Bill precisely in line with the previous Conservative Act which the Labour Party had derided and attacked as inadequate.
  What happened in that division and in many other divisions is that not five but dozens upon dozens of public service pensioners took at face value the undertakings given by the Labour Party, which have been repudiated this evening. When the right hon. Gentleman and his wife go again for the postal votes or with transport to take the public pensioners to vote, they will not have the same luck.
  Mr. Geoffrey Rhodes: Before the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) sits down—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Roderic Bowen): He has already sat down. Mr. MacDermot.
  8.58 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): When preparing for the debate I read the reports of the previous debates on Pensions (Increase) Bills and I was struck by the non-partisan character of those debates. As the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) said, speaking from his experience of these debates, which is long, we do not attempt to score party points in this kind of debate. Certainly I thought that his remarks accorded with previous practice.
  1448
  But he explained to the House when he began his speech that he had only just come into the Chamber and had not been present throughout. Had he been here he would have known why the somewhat partisan atmosphere had been created on what he was commenting. Personally I regret it. I do not think that this is a subject which gains from being made the subject of partisan party politics. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I will answer hon. Members opposite in their own vein later in my speech, but I want to make it clear at the outset that I do so with reluctance.
  This is not a subject which gains, nor will public pensioners gain in the long run, if we break this long tradition of making this a non-party matter and if we try to turn it into a partisan and party matter. The reason why it has always been treated in the non-partisan fashion is that we realise that we have a peculiar responsibility to all these public service pensioners. As has been said often—it was said again today—we are concerned with people who have no powerful union to represent them and no powerful body to negotiate on their behalf. There are, of course, valuable associations which speak for pensioners or for sections of pensioners, but they are not in any true sense negotiating bodies and cannot be negotiating bodies.
  The people for whom they speak have devoted many years, if not the whole of their working lives, to the public service and they look to us as hon. Members, and particularly to back bench Members, for support and protection. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have devoted a great part of their parliamentary life to furthering the interests of public service pensioners. Mr. Speaker, as we have been reminded, was once prominent in this respect. We have heard from many such Members during the debate.
  It was for me a somewhat bewildering task, approaching this field as a newcomer, as I did when I came to the Treasury, to try to understand its underlying philosophy. I fear that the truth is that with the many changes which have been made in public service pensions since the war the whole of this scheme has got into such a tangle that it is a veritable Gordian knot. Even if I had

  1449
  the philosophical skill of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), which I have not, I would find it impossible to resolve the philosophical basis for these Acts. One of my predecessors as Financial Secretary, Jack Simon, as we knew him then—he is now much more eminent—evidently found himself in the same difficulty, and he said that he had reached the conclusion that there was no underlying principle to Pension (Increase) Bills and that it was purely an empirical matter to be decided on the balance of conflicting interests.
  It is clear to anyone who has listened to the debate and read reports of similar debates in recent years that there is a general dissatisfaction in all parts of the House with this excessively empirical approach. It is felt that there should be some more clearly recognised and clearly defined philosophy of pensions increases, some better way of tackling the problem, perhaps some better machinery than these recurrent Acts of Parliament. The hope was expressed, as my right hon. Friend said, at the time of the 1962 debates that that Act would be the last Measure of its kind to be brought before Parliament. I am disappointed, as I think all hon. Members concerned in these matters are disappointed, that that is not so. Such disappointment has been expressed on both sides of the House today.
  But this particular criticism comes singularly ill from the Front Bench opposite. During the years they were in office they brought forward many Pensions (Increase) Acts and although they introduced some innovations which, on the whole, were welcomed by hon. Members on both sides, and some of which at least were the result of earlier pressures from both sides, they never succeeded in finding any solution in depth. They have, of course, now a natural impatience. They now expect us to make good in one year what they failed to achieve in 13 years.
  In some matters we have been able to do so but we are ready to admit, as my right hon. Friend has already explained, why it is that we are not able to do so in this field in one year. Hon. Members who are familiar with the subject know full well that, while it is easy to criticise, it is not easy to find a workable and generally acceptable solution,
  1450
  quite apart from the particular objections which there are to particular solutions. There is one general difficulty and that is that the problem cannot be considered in isolation.
  One or two hon. Members, indulging, I think, in a little wishful thinking, have wished that it would be possible to separate this problem and review it in isolation. I think they know in their hearts that it is not really possible to do so. Any radical alteration in the system of public service pensions increases raises vital and difficult questions on the relation ship between public service pensions and National Insurance pensions on the one hand and occupational pensions in the private sector on the other.
  As the House knows, a comprehensive review of the social services is being undertaken. It would accordingly have been quite futile for us to have tried to make a radical review of the system of public service pensions increases until the results of that comprehensive review were available. I was asked by the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) whether this subject forms part of the general review. I must make it quite clear that it does not.
  The position is that we hope that the general review will throw up new ideas and point to a solution of the problem of the relationship between National Insurance and occupational pensions as a whole. If we are to succeed in finding any move towards what has been spoken of as a dynamic principle in pensions policy, this is something that has to be done.
  Clearly, it would be folly to try to make a review of this subject in anticipation of the general review and it is when the general review is available that we shall be able to review this problem and then to consider to what extent and in what way we can introduce these principles which have been spoken of by years by hon. Members on both sides.
  Mr. Peter Walker: Could the hon. and learned Gentleman also answer my second question, which was when he expects the general review to be completed?
  Mr. MacDermot: No, I cannot give a date. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has frequently been pressed for an answer and it is not one I can give.

  1451
  But I can now answer the rhetorical question put by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West as to what my right hon. Friend said in these debates in earlier years, when he was referring to the principle of parity. Of course, if the House is having a general discussion of the principles of public service pensions increases, this is always a matter which will be questioned and raised, but for the right hon. Gentleman to try to extract some political party pledge out of the almost rhetorical questions my right hon. Friend asked is beneath his intellectual capacity.
  Mr. Powell: Was the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster saying that he was in favour of parity or against it?
  Mr. MacDermot: I know of very few people who have said that they are not in favour of parity. We all would love to be able to introduce it. But the question is whether one can introduce it, to what extent and when. One hon. Member opposite claimed that the Opposition at least have the political honesty to admit that they are against parity. I do not know who he was speaking for but he was not speaking for the hon. Member for Worcester. If he was speaking correctly for the Opposition, then apparently the hon. Member for Worcester, speaking from the Front Bench opposite, was not. What the hon. Member for Worcester proposed and what I understood him to commit his party to was the introduction, at once on his party's return to power, of parity to 1956.
  Many questions have been asked during the debate. I cannot answer or deal with all of them, but I will deal with as many as I can and, if I fail to deal with any particular issue, perhaps the hon. Members concerned will get in touch with me and I will try to help. I will confine myself to dealing with some of the more general issues which have been raised. In the latter part of his speech, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West sought to spell out some broken party pledges. Let me remind him of what his hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings) said earlier. The hon. Gentleman reminded the House of the official party policy on this subject which was put out by Transport House.
  1452
  The hon. Gentleman always speaks very fairly on these subjects and I do not think that he approaches them in a partisan spirit. The quotation which he made was:
  "While a Labour Government would not be able to accept parity in full or at once for financial reasons, it would be prepared to give careful and sympathetic consideration to any proposals made."
  If hon. Members think that they can spell out a breach of electoral pledge from that, they are using a little misplaced ingenuity.
  Mr. Jennings: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his remarks about me. However, I made the separate quotations, one from Transport House and one from the present Prime Minister, in order to show the confusion of thought and the contradictory policies being put out.
  Mr. MacDermot: There was no confusion of thought. The Prime Minister was referring to the same sympathetic consideration which would be given to the underlying principle, but there was certainly no kind of pledge of the sort which hon. Members opposite are trying to build up in order to knock down.
  As for my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget)— I regret that he is not here, but he has explained why he could not be present— as I stated in an interjection in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, if anyone looks fairly and carefully at the actual words that my hon. and learned Friend used, speaking from the Dispatch Box opposite, he will see that it is quite plain that he did not purport to make any pledge for the party and did not make any pledge on behalf of the party. What he did was to commit himself personally to being in support of this solution and to express the wish and the hope that when a Labour Government came to power, they would be able to introduce it. Incidentally, he was limiting it to the Armed Forces. He certainly did not give any pledge. He was not authorised to give any pledge. I have no doubt whatever that he was personally authorised by the two of my right hon. Friends to whom he referred to do that which he did, namely, commit himself personally. That is as far as he went.
  Sir Henry Studholme: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware

  1453
  that I have in my possession a copy of a letter which the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) wrote to one of my constituents saying, "If, as I hope, I am the next Secretary of State for War, I shall see to it that parity is given to cases like yours."?
  Mr. MacDermot: In politics we all have to put up with some unrealised hopes, but we cannot convert our hopes into pledges.
  I will turn to the criticism which has been levelled by hon. Members opposite that we have not introduced measures to which the hon. Member for Worcester pledged his party earlier today, namely, parity to 1956, making pensions payable from the age 55, and establishing a system of regular periodic reviews. The hon. Gentleman was asked whether, before committing himself to this new course, the Conservative Party had costed its proposals. I have undertaken many debates with the hon. Gentleman, but I have never seen him so embarrassed as he was at that moment, and rightly embarrassed when we remember all the righteous indignation levelled by hon. Members opposite when it was suggested that we had failed to cost our proposals. After all their propaganda of how their proposals were costed, here he was, giving a pledge on behalf of his party to do that which they had failed to do during 13 years. He had to admit that he had no notion of what the cost would be. What he said was, "We will be only too pleased to find out what the cost is." Later in the debate the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) sought to come to his assistance and said that, as a result of a Question which had been put down, he could tell him what the cost of his proposals would be and that it would be £7 million.
  Mr. Peter Walker: As the hon. and learned Gentleman says, I have debated with him many times and he is normally much fairer than this. It is not a fair interpretation of what I said at all. I did not say that I had no notion at all of the cost. Of course, I had a notion of the cost. I said that I did not have details of the cost, as would be revised by the interpretation of this particular Bill. If he reads the report in HANSARD yesterday he will see that this is made quite clear. The original estimates which
  1454
  we made on this were approximations of £5 million to £8 million. What I did not know was the detailed cost of what was considered.
  Mr. MacDermot: I am sorry if I misrepresented the hon. Gentleman. He said, "We will be only too pleased to find out what the cost is." This is a very remarkable position for hon. Gentlemen to be in when they are pledging their party to new measures, to be introduced as soon as they get back into power. It is also a peculiar posture in which to find the hon. Member for Worcester, when we remember his strictures, levelled against us on the subject of public expenditure.
  Here he is, apparently prepared to support a commitment of his party, which is open-ended, and of which he does not know the cost. The hon. Member for Orpington was right about the cost of these proposals, at the time when the Question was asked, which was last July. Since then we have had this Measure, and, assuming that the House is going to pass it—and I think we can make this assumption because hon. Gentlemen on both sides are supporting it—the cost is enormously increased. We have to add not only 16 per cent. to the cost of that increase, but 16 per cent. has to be added to the total pensions involved. The total cost now of the two measures together, we are advised, would be £15 million. Taking them separately the cost of parity to 1956 alone would be £11 million, the cost of the reduction of the entitlement from 60 to 55 would be about £5 million, but there is an overlap between the two of about £1 million; so the two together total £15 million. This is half as much again as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West estimated it would cost. Both the right hon. Gentlemen and the hon. Member for Worcester said that they believed that the cost of these reforms were ones which should be given priority. They were the actual words used by the hon. Member for Worcester. Priority over what? Do the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen mean that we ought now, in our present economic situation, to be bringing a Pensions (Increase) Bill, of which the total cost would be £40 million? If so they should say it.
  Mr. Powell: What I was saying was that it is a wholly realistic pledge for the Tory Party to give.
  Mr. MacDermot: That is different again. His hon. Friend was criticising us because we are not doing it now. I understand from what the right hon. Gentleman is saying that he admits that it is not something which we can or should do now, but at some unspecified date in the future when we have more resources available for this purpose. I ask him, does he think that it is something which we can and should introduce now? If so he must face up, with that responsibility which he usually shows in such matters, to the public expenditure aspect. Either it is a proposal additional to what we are proposing, or it is in substitution. If it is additional he is going to raise the cost of this Bill to £40 million.
  Is that what he is suggesting we should do? If he is not going to make it additional, he will have to deduct £15 million from the pensions increases provided for in the Bill, which total £25 million. It would drastically reduce the percentage increases for which provision is made. If this criticism is levelled against us, we are entitled to know what is the Opposition's proposal.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: My hon. and learned Friend mentioned the figure of £40 million. May I suggest that by cutting out one Polaris submarine from our defence programme we would save at least £60 million? I should like to see the money saved by doing that used for our pensioners.
  Mr. MacDermot: I was not seeking my hon. Friend's solution to this problem, which I think I could have anticipated. What I was seeking was the solution of hon. Members opposite. I shall be very surprised if I learn what it is. [Interruption.]I was a little surprised that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West should enter this debate, but when I remember the contributions which he has been making in the House and outside on the matters for which he is officially responsible I can understand why it is that he is, not relegated, but perhaps, promoted to be Opposition Front Bench spokesman on this subject.
  Mr. Powell: It is why the hon. and learned Gentleman finds me taking a
  1456
  personal interest, and on behalf of my party, in the well-being of Armed Service pensioners.
  Mr. MacDermot: I thought that that might be the case until I heard the right hon. Gentleman's speech, which had remarkably little to do with the position of Armed Service pensioners.
  I should make it clear that we cannot introduce and are not putting forward the proposal in the Bill for parity to 1956, first, because of cost. As I have said, it would result in a quite unacceptable increase in the total cost of the Bill. Secondly, as has been stated repeatedly and I think accepted by all hon. Members, the Bill is intended as an interim Measure. It deliberately follows the pattern of previous Bills. It is a holding operation—and we hope and believe that it will be non-controversial for that reason—until we are in a position to bring forward proposals for a more radical solution.
  To make a proposal which, even in this limited sense, introduced the principle of parity would raise very great and deep questions of principle.
  Mr. Lubbock: I do not expect the hon. and learned Gentleman to give the figure now, but could he have a calculation made of the net increase, because this £40 million paid to the public service pensioners will be subject to tax? I should like to know what the actual cost to the Exchequer would be after making allowance for that.
  Mr. MacDermot: I do not think that that is a calculation which can be made. All estimates given in these matters are in gross terms, and they always have been.
  I turn to the second proposal, namely, the reduction of the age qualification to 55 years. The pressure for this reduction comes, of course, from groups of pensioners who are particularly affected. It comes especially from Armed Forces officers. But the principles of Pensions (Increase) Bills apply to all pensioners, and it has not been thought right, and we certainly do not think it right, in a Measure of this kind to try to single out a particular group or groups of pensioners for preferential treatment.
  As has been said, the reason for the 60 years age limit is well known, namely,

  1457
  that it is the minimum pensionable age for the vast majority of civil servants, teachers, people employed in the National Health Service and local government employees with 40 years' service. The result is that the majority of them are eligible for increases as from their retirement date.
  The arguments against reducing the age limit are equally well known. People under 60 years of age can normally be expected to find further employment and thus offset by work at current rates of pay the reductions in the value of their pensions and the increases in the cost of living. I know that there are—we all know from constituency cases—particular cases of people who are in difficulty over this matter, the difficulty particularly of the elderly, the more elderly officers retired from the Army who may have difficulty in finding other employment. But, generally speaking, I think it is fair to say that even in that class of people the vast majority of them do find employment and find it fairly readily. In these circumstances it does not seem right to use the limited public funds which are available to help a class of people who are relatively in a better position to help themselves. It would not fit in with the general design of the Bill, which is one to relieve hardship, nor, for that matter, with the national need to encourage all who can to help fill the manpower gap.
  I should make it clear to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Rhodes) that people who retire due to health reasons, or, for that matter, subsequently become disabled after retirement are entitled to pension increase.
  The next main question raised was why we have not repeated the provision for a flat rate increase for pensioners over 70. We gave extremely careful thought to this, whether we should repeat or roll forward the £20 increase, which, when it was introduced, was a novel proposal, in some ways a regression to older methods of pensions increase, and which, when it was introduced, had a mixed reception in the House. Some Members approved of it; others were more neutral. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy, speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, described it as a new feature welcome in some respects but not perhaps
  1458
  wholly defensible from the point of view of principle.
  I think that the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) who introduced it was guided by two main considerations. He had an extra amount, as it were, to spare over and above what was needed to make good the direct increase in the cost of living. He wanted to help the older pensioners, and he would have been in difficulties if he had tried to enlarge the maximum percentage increase, because then he would either have had to extend the 2 per cent. steps back beyond 1956 or else increase the size of the steps, and either of those courses, for highly technical reasons which I need not seek to explain now, would have produced many anomalies.
  We are now, of course, not similarly restricted, because another three years have elapsed, and we came to the conclusion that if, as proved to be the case, we were able to afford more than a straight cost of living increase, it would have been met by an increase of 12 per cent. for those who retired before 1st April, 1959, and we thought the better and fairer way of doing it was the one we chose, namely, by granting two extra steps of 2 per cent. for the pre-1959 retirements.
  The reasons for this are that the £20 flat-rate increase operated in a rather haphazard way. It would have helped many who had retired comparatively recently—say, at 65—and not given help to many retired far longer but who had not yet reached the age of 70 but retired with a considerably smaller pension in real terms and whose pension would have suffered far more from the effects of inflation when they reached the age at which they would be dependent upon it.
  Secondly, I should tell the House that I do not think that the £20 increase was generally welcomed by the pensioners. I had the pleasure of receiving a deputation from the Public Service Pensioners' Council earlier in the year, and I ask them specifically about this matter, and they were not keen to see it repeated. I got the impression from them that they felt and that their members felt that it savoured of charity. What they pressed for was a higher percentage

  1459
  increase for the earlier retired. I am not suggesting that we have been able to go as far as they wanted. They put certain specific figures to me higher than those we were able to give, but the method we have chosen is the one they suggested. Having a repetition of the £20 flat-rate increase would benefit relatively few people in the immediate future whereas the Bill gives immediate help to those more in need.
  Mr. Dean: I see the hon. and learned Gentleman's point, but would he not agree that for those on very small pensions even a percentage increase of 16 per cent. is likely to be less advantageous to them than a lump sum increase, and is this not shown by the fact that if we compare this Bill with the 1962 Act the pensioners getting pensions below £500 are getting a smaller increase on this occasion than they would have in 1962?
  Mr. MacDermot: That is quite true. I gave way a little too early, because I was just coming to that point.
  I realise that some people might well criticise the provision on the grounds the hon. Member has stated, namely, that the flat-rate increase would give some help to the poorer pensioners, and this is true, but this is a criticism which can be levelled against any movement away from a flat-rate increase, which always gives the most help to the poorest pensioners, but I think it is generally accepted in all parts of the House that it is right to move away as was done by the party opposite in 1956 from the First World War system of flat-rate increases to the more modern one of percentage increases.
  I would say in answer to the hon. Gentleman that it is sometimes forgotten that our system of percentage increases is superimposed on and operated on the pensions as increased by earlier Measures. Earlier post-war Measures did discriminate in this way in favour of the poorer pensioners and those who suffered from that discrimination are naturally complaining about it still. We have heard that case argued already today. I would say that that discrimination can be defended, and, of course, it is defended, on social grounds, but the relevance of it here is that that preferential treatment
  1460
  given to the poorer pensioners in the earlier post-war Acts is repeated and extended by the percentage increase system.
  Let me give an example. Since 1950 the cost of living has gone up by 80 per cent. A postman who retired in 1950 with 13 years' service would have got a pension of £50. Under the Bill that will be increased to £126, together with the earlier Measures—a total increase of 153 per cent. compared with a cost of living increase of 80 per cent.
  Compare him with a senior executive officer who retired at the same time with 40 years' service. He would then have been entitled to a pension of £500. That pension will now be increased not by 153 per cent. but by 69 per cent., to £845. The effect, therefore, is that the poorer pensioners are still doing better in relation to their original pensions than the better off pensioners. I think that that is the result which most hon. Members wish to achieve.
  It is pointed out that the Bill does not provide for those who retired since the cut-off date and that those pensioners also have to some extent suffered from the rise in the cost of living which has occurred since then. That, of course, is true and it is equally true that the Bill provides no relief from it. However, all classes of the community, even those who are fortunate enough to be able, other than by Act of Parliament, to secure an increase in their incomes to compensate for inflation, will have to accept a time lag. Generally speaking, those who retired most recently have done so with higher pensions, geared to higher rates of pay. This increase, which is 6·5 per cent. since the cut-off date, compares with an increase of 5·3 per cent. between the cutoff date and the introduction of the 1962 Act.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Randall) asked me to consider whether the cut-off date could be brought forward. I will certainly look at that again but I cannot hold out any real prospect that we will be able to move the date forward.
  A number of hon. Members have again raised the question of whether we should not have built into our system some kind of automatic increases or reviews. This is a point of view with which I have a

  1461
  great deal of sympathy, but I must again point out that this is an interim, temporary Measure and that it would be wrong to try to introduce some permanent new machinery until we have devised and decided upon the permanent policy.
  There are certain difficulties and drawbacks about the various solutions which have been proposed, but I need not go into them in detail now. The one most commonly spoken of is that it should be tied to the cost of living index. A great many pensioners who are benefiting under the Bill would benefit much less if it were just tied rigidly to the cost of living because a lot of them are doing considerably better than the mere increase in the cost of living.
  Other proposals are that it should be tied to average earnings, that there should be regular periodic increases, and so on. We were also asked that there should be automatic reviews; say, every two or three years, and one hon. Member suggested every year. I should explain that there is, in a very real sense, a continuous review of this subject. I admit that I was a little sceptical—as no doubt most hon. Members are when they hear this—when I first heard about this and wondered what it meant in practice. In fact, there is a section at the Treasury which, with great skill, goes into these matters and is carefully watching the whole time the position of pensions in relation to the other factors, in particular changes in the cost of living. As soon as the gap has widened to a point when it is felt that the matter should be brought to the attention of Ministers, that is done.
  I appreciate that we have been under a good deal of pressure on this matter since we came to office. I assure the House that I was already deeply involved in this subject and in the preparation which led to the Bill long before I personally had been subjected to any pressure on the matter from hon. Members. It is absolutely true that this matter is under continuous review and I am doubtful whether it would assist to try to write the sort of provision that has been suggested into the Bill. As I say, in certain circumstances pensioners might be worse off with a rigid period of review. In any case, it is not a matter cm which we should seek to legislate at the moment.
  1462
  My hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) raised the position of railway superannuitants. I must be careful to try to keep in order on this matter. All I need say is that the nationalised industries already have the necessary legal powers to pay and, when necessary, to increase pensions. There is, therefore, no need for further provision in the Bill. The industries are commercial undertakings which must be free to take their own decisions and it would not be appropriate for us to seek in Parliament to impose obligations on a particular nationalised industry to pay particular pensions.
  I appreciate my hon. Friend's great concern in this matter and I assure him that I share it. There are few hon. Members with more railway superannuitants in their constituencies than in mine, and I therefore share by hon. Friend's concern. The boards of the industries are now considering what action they should take in the light of this Bill. If the Railways Board proposes to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport an appropriate scheme of pensions increases for its staff, I can give an assurance that authority to implement it will not be withheld simply because the railways are at present incurring a deficit which has to be financed by the Exchequer. I do not think that it would be proper for me to go any further into it than that, as it is a matter for which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport is responsible.
  I was asked a number of questions about overseas pensioners. The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw), whom I do not see here at the moment, raised a particular point about people who, when recruited, were domiciled abroad, and were now resident here. It is true that they are not covered under this Bill, as they were not covered under other Bills, and at first sight I do not see the strength of the argument why they should be.
  I can understand the point of extending our Pensions (Increase) Measures to people who were recruited in this country and who went to serve overseas and draw a pension from the overseas country, but if someone is recruited not from this country, but at the time of recruitment is domiciled abroad, and for whom the British taxpayer has no responsibility, why should the British taxpayer have to

  1463
  pay him a pension increase in respect of his service abroad simply because he has come to live in this country? I am prepared to consider further argument on the matter if the hon. Gentleman cares to write to me about it, but I must say that that is my immediate reaction.
  The hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine) asked me to explain the provisions in the Bill about re-employed civil servants, and I shall seek to do so briefly. There is no problem where civil servants are paid a separate pension for their further service, nor is there now where they serve on in the same grade. The problem arises where they are reemployed in a lower grade, and it falls, and has fallen, into two categories—first, where they are re-employed at a lower salary, and, secondly, where they are re-employed at a salary which has crept just above their earlier retiring age salary.
  Where they are re-employed at a lower salary, their pension at present dates from, that is to say begins at, the date of the final retirement. Civil servants must, and teachers may, get a pension based on their earlier higher emoluments before their first retirement. The effect of these two provisions together is that they do not get the benefit of pension increases, and it may be, and often is, the case that, as a result of a further service, from the point of view of their pension they are no better off than they would have been if they had never been re-employed. They cannot be any worse off because there is a provision in the 1959 Act to ensure that.
  The present rule which has given rise to dissatisfaction was based on a fear that if they were given the benefit of pension increases they might be better off than civil servants who served on in the same job, but in fact it has proved in practice to occur very rarely. We propose, therefore, to make the pension begin at the time of the original retirement, but calculated on the basis of the total number of years actually served. The effect of this is that they will get the benefit of the Pensions (Increase) Acts.
  In the second case, where the salary has crept just above the earlier retiring age salary, the pension now is based on the final emoluments, that is, what he
  1464
  was earning at the time of final retirement, and again cases will occur where he is no better off than colleagues who retired at the same time and have never been re-employed. We propose, in effect, the same solution, and the effect of this change, apart from removing what has been quite a long-standing grievance, will be to provide a very real incentive to further service.
  The hon. Member for Rye asked me two or three other more specific and particular questions, and perhaps it will save the time of the House if I write to him about those.
  The hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) asked about the position of pensioners resident in Rhodesia. This is of some immediate and topical interest to the House, and I should perhaps say a word about it. It is intended that pensioners who are covered by the Bill and who are resident in Rhodesia should continue to receive their pensions and to receive the increases under the Bill. The machinery is likely to be that a Rhodesia account will be established in London. Pension-paying Departments should send payable orders which can be drawn on this account, direct to the pensioners through the post. The pensioners will then, we hope, be able to cash the orders at their local banks, which will clear the transaction with the account in London, and appropriate instructions are being issued to the pension-paying Departments.
  I suggest to the House that although this is an interim Measure—a holding Measure—it compares very favourably with previous Bills. Judged by any standard the percentage increase in the Bill will stand comparison with its predecessors. If we look at it, first, in relation to the cost of living we find that since the operative date of the previous Measure the cost of living has risen by 10 per cent.—since 1st April, 1963. The maximum increase under the Bill is 16 per cent.—that is, 6 per cent. higher. Under the 1962 Act the comparable figures were 9 per cent. in respect of the cost of living and 12 per cent. for the maximum increase—which was 3 per cent. higher although there was then also a £20 increase; under the 1959 Act there was a 6·4 per cent. increase in the cost of living and a 12 per cent. maximum increase—5·6 per cent. higher, and

  1465
  under the 1956 Act an 11 per cent. cost of living increase and a 10 per cent. maximum increase, which was 1 per cent. less.
  Some people would say that this does not give the proper picture, and that we should compare it with the increase in the cost of living since the cut-off date of the previous Act. Making that comparison we find that under the 1956 Act the cost of living had risen by 6½per cent. since the previous cut-off date, and the maximum increase was 10 per cent.; under the 1959 Act the cost of living had risen by 24 per cent. and the maximum increase was 12 per cent.; under the 1962 Act the cost of living had risen by 16 per cent. and the maximum increase was 12 per cent., and under this Bill the cost of living had risen by 17 per cent. and the maximum increase is 16 per cent.—closer than had been achieved by any previous Bill.
  At the time when the 1962 Bill was introduced my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, speaking for the Opposition, described it as the best Pensions (Increase) Bill so far—generous words compared with some that we have heard today. The right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) whom I was glad to see here earlier today, said that
  " one cannot properly overlook the fact that this Bill "—
  the 1962 Bill—
  "if Pensions (Increase) Bills are the way that we have to do it, cannot possibly be described as anything but a generous application of that method."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th November, 1962; Vol. 666, c. 1339.]
  What I say to hon. Members is that this is no less generous than that Measure was. In spite of the very tight public expenditure discipline that we have had to impose we have found room in the programme for a Measure which is not only the most costly ever introduced, in real terms—and I am sorry to tell the hon. Member that again his arithmetic is wrong, but he was very understandably misled by the confusing way in which the financial effects of the different Bills have been put out; in his
  1466
  last intervention, in relation to the present Bill, he omitted to add the £1·4 million, but on this occasion he made the mistake of adding the £1·4 million in the previous Bill, because it was already included in the total of £17·7 million. I will go into the figures later but I can assure him that this makes a greater increase in real terms than did the previous Bill. Not only that; we believe that it is distributed in a fairer way, benefiting most those who have been longest retired. It gives the highest maximum percentage increase ever awarded and gives that percentage increase on the largest base. It applies to the largest number of people —710,000, compared with 615,000 in the previous Bill. It rectifies a long-standing grievance about re-employed civil servants. And all this is done on top of the action that we took in the last Session to give the largest increase ever under the present National Insurance system to the National Insurance pensioner.
  We put this forward for good reasons, which have been explained, as a temporary Measure, or an interim Measure, pending a deeper review of the pensions increase system than is now possible. As such we have no cause to be ashamed of it, and we commend it to the House.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: While thanking the Financial Secretary for the answer which I am sure would be very much appreciated by those concerned in Rhodesia, may I ask whether he will bear in mind the other case which I put to him of Civil Servants from Ghana and the matter of the automatic deductions from Ghana? Are the Government doing something to make them up?
  Mr. MacDermot: I shall be glad to look at that but as I listened to the hon. Member the thought struck me that there was not much that we could do about it.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Howie.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

PENSIONS (INCREASE) [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
[SIR SAMUEL STOREY in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to increases or supplements in respect of certain pensions, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by a Government department under or by virtue of any provision of that Act—

(a) providing for increases of pensions to which section 1 of the Pensions (Increase) Act 1962 applies and certain other pensions, being increases determined by reference to events other than the rendering of further service, happening not earlier than the beginning of the pension in question, and not being increases determined by reference to the emoluments or pensions of persons other than the person to or in respect of whom the pension in question is payable;

(b) designed to secure that, where a person to whom a pension has or may become payable renders further service, any pension payable to or in respect of that person after the termination of that further service (with any appropriate increases of that pension) either exceeds or is not less than it would have been if the further service had not been rendered;

(c) enabling benefits in the nature of pension increases to be conferred on persons who are or have been subject to any such superannuation scheme as may be approved for the purpose under the said Act of the present Session;

(d) providing for the payment of increases under sections 1 and 2, and of supplements under section 3, of the said Act of 1962 in respect of additional pensions;

(e) applying or extending for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session any of the provisions of sections 3 to 6 and 7(1) of the Pensions (Increase) Act 1959 and sections 3 and 6 of the said Act of 1962;

and any increase attributable to any such provision as aforesaid of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under any other enactment.—[Mr. MacDermot.]
9.59 p.m.
Mr. Peter Walker: May I ask the Financial Secretary whether there was any need to draft this Money Resolution in such a way as to exclude certain types of cases as will be excluded by paragraph (a) in the words
"…not being increases determined by reference to the emoluments or pensions of persons other than the person to or in respect of whom the pension in question is payable …"
1468
This makes it impossible for us to put down Amendments which make any comparison with other pensions, for example an Amendment to bring payments in line with the 1956 payments. This Money Resolution is drawn much tighter than previous Resolutions on similar types of Bills.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): It is right to say that in this one respect this is tighter than the Money Resolution on the previous Measure. I gave careful thought to this matter because I have responsibility to the whole House in respect of Money Resolutions. The policy which governs the matter was made clear by the then Lord Privy Seal, Mr. Butler, and he was repeating an assurance given by the Prime Minister in 1937 which was that the general policy governing the framing of Money Resolutions would be that they should be such
"as not to restrict the scope within which the Committee on the Bills may consider Amendments further than is necessary to enable Her Majesty's Governments to discharge their responsibilities in regard to public expenditure and to leave the Committee the utmost freedom for discussion and amendment of details which is compatible with the discharge of those responsibilities."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th May, 1957; Vol. 569, c. 85–86.]
We felt here that as we had excluded these major questions discussed today on grounds of public expenditure—they clearly were not feasible—and as obviously these were not matters which could be introduced by way of substitution for other measures in the Bill, for example, to introduce the matters referred to by the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker), would mean recasting the Bill—we thought it right to draw the Money Resolution in these terms. We thought it was legitimate and right to do so for the protection of the public purse. I have looked at the scope of Amendments which would be allowed under the Money Resolution and there is not a single Amendment which was called in relation to the previous Pensions (Increase) Bill which would not be, as I am advised, in order within the Money Resolution. Indeed, there are many other Amendments which could be introduced under this which were not admissible under that. In other respects it is wider.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

PENSIONS (INCREASE) [MONEY]

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
  Read a Second time.
  Bill commuted to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
[Sir SAMUEL STOREY in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to continue certain expiring laws, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such expenses as may be occasioned by the continuance of section 3 of the Emergency Laws (Repeal) Act 1959 and Part I of, and Schedule 1 to, the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, till the end of December, 1966, and of Part VII of the Licensing Act, 1964, till the end of March, 1967, being expenses which under any Act are to be paid out of such moneys.—[Mr. MacDermot.]
9.58 p.m..
Mr. Reginald Freeson: I wish to raise one or two points and questions on whether it would be expedient to pass this Money Resolution. During the past four years, as a result of such Money Resolutions passed by the House, about £9 million, I believe, has been spent in operating two of the Acts concerned, the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act and the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962. I understand that, since 1962, following such Resolutions, nearly £2 million has been spent in operating the Commonwealth Immigrants Act itself. According to the Explanatory Memorandum this year, it is estimated that, during 1966, £2·9 million will be spent, of which nearly £600,000 will be for operating the Commonwealth Immigrants Act.
After this period of time, it is fair for us to ask whether sums of this kind are being spent or are proposed to be spent in a manner satisfactory to the House and to the country. I think that the Select Committee on Estimates had something to say on the subject about two years ago
1470
when it described the fantastic bureaucracy and administrative confusion in the immigration and nationality department, which is covered by the expenditure under this Resolution.
I realise that it would not be in order to discuss the kind of cases which have come up from time to time in the House and in public discussion in the Press as a result of certain conduct of that department, and neither would it be in order to discuss the kind of cases which hon. Members have had to deal with as a result of what we have felt to be, and what has proved to be, arbitrary conduct of immigration officers or officials from time to time in particular instances. That will be for another occasion in the very near future.
10.0 p.m.
But when we refer back to the period of time in which this money has been spent—I refer particularly to the money spent as a result of this Resolution—in operating the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, it is fair to remind ourselves of the reasons, or at least one of the main reasons, for this expenditure. We were told when the Money Resolution was first before the House in connection with the 1962 Act that it was necessary to spend this money for various administrative purposes covered by the Act—as stated in the Resolution tonight—in order to provide a breathing space to deal with questions of race relations and the administration of such matters by control.
What is the position now, four years later? With a similar Resolution before us, after £2 million has been spent, we find that the cost is going up. I believe that it was originally estimated to be £500,000, and indeed that was the sum last year. Next year it will be nearly £600,000. It would not be in order for me this evening to discuss some of the main reasons given by Ministers for this increased expenditure, which arises from the implementation of the White Paper which will be the subject of discussion next week—such matters as evasion, the suggestion that the country is bursting at the seams, the fact that so many people are racialists, and so on. But we end with Ministers, four years later, saying that it is necessary to incur greater expenditure in implementing the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, by way of the

1471
recommendation placed before the House some months ago in a White Paper, again in order to create a breathing space. That is four years after the original Act was passed and the original Money Resolution was put before us in order to create just such a breathing space.
I am necessarily speaking briefly tonight. We have a Motion which suggests that it is expedient to spend this money four years after we were told that it was necessary to create a breathing space. That was why the 1962 Act was introduced. After we have spent £2 million in four years, I must ask whether it would not be more expedient to spend such sums of money on combating ignorance, prejudice and discrimination, rather than on concerning ourselves with restrictions and controls.
Dr. David Kerr: The terms of the Money Resolution before the House include the word "expedient". Perhaps I may first refer to the financial effects of the Bill and remind my hon. and learned Friend, with great respect, that the sum was £2·9 million, or nearly £3 million, not £2 million as he said.
We are told that the expenditure consists
" mainly of staff costs in the Home Office, Ministry of Labour and Commonwealth Relations Office."
It seems to me that in the working of the Act, which is covered by the terms of the Resolution, we specifically exclude from the financial effects of the Bill any expenditure under the Ministry of Health which could reasonably be expected to arise from Section 2 of Part I of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. Section 2(4,a) refers to health checks on entry. It appears to me that if we are to confine our consideration of the expenditure to staff costs in respect of the Home Office, we exclude any consideration of what is to be done by health checks at the port of entry if they prove disadvantageous to the immigrants concerned. The question of expenditure on health investigation does not seem to me to fall appropriately within the responsibility of the Home Office. The question of expediency must therefore be referred to again.
1472
There is also the question of possible expenditure arising from the treatment of any illness which is discovered in an arriving immigrant but which is not sufficient at that moment to demand that that immigrant be refused entry. It would, of course, be out of order for me to say that I can conceive of no illness which would qualify a man for deportation, and I therefore will not say it. But it is possible that the immigrant may be discovered to suffer from some treatable disease which does not lead to a refusal order, and this must impose upon the Ministry of Health the possibility of spending money on urgent medical services, treatment, convalescence and all the other facilities which it would be proper for a civilised country to place at the disposal of an arriving immigrant—
The Chairman: The hon. Member is going into too much detail. All he can do is question the Money Resolution. before us.
Dr. Kerr: Thank you, Sir Samuel. I will try to keep in order. I have referred to Erskine May and I should like to draw your attention to it, with great deference. According to Erskine May, Money Resolutions are seldom debated on Report since an adequate opportunity for debate has already been provided in Committee. This is not true on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. We do not have the advantage of the debate in Committee until next week.
The Chairman: It is in Committee that it is in order to discuss these details. It has been ruled over and over again that the only time to discuss the details is in the Committee stage when an Amendment has been put down.
Dr. Kerr: Thank you for your Ruling, Sir Samuel. I referred to Erskine May, which seemed to suggest that a Money Resolution was discussed after the Committee stage had been taken, and I felt that in this case this was not the procedure. But I accept your guidance. I shall seek an early opportunity to raise this matter for discussion.
I merely draw attention to the use of the word "expedient" in the context of a Financial Resolution. To exclude some of the most expedient action which any responsible and civilised Government would undertake seems to raise certain

1473
queries, and I ask that particular attention should be given to this point by my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary when he answers the debate.
Mr. Maurice Orbach: My hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) raised the question of the administrative costs and pointed to the fact that the Select Committee on Estimates, meeting two years ago, made some observations about the bureaucratic cost of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act. I ask for an assurance that, during consideration of this Bill, the Home Office has gone into the question of costs up to date and has adjusted them, that the increased costs coming are necessary and proper and that we are not merely getting an inflation of the original figure, which has already been condemned.
It is not possible for me to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wands-worth, Central (Dr. David Kerr), but I hope to take the opportunity to do so next week. But has the original cost been pared down to take account of what the House has declared and are we getting a genuine estimated cost for 1965–66?
Mr. Michael Foot: We all know that it is extremely difficult to conduct a debate on a Money Resolution and if we do not know it already we find out very speedily. But my hon. Friends have done it tonight with extreme care and skill. I have seldom seen the eye of a needle so skilfully widened and it is therefore quite right that we should pursue the matter and put a few more questions, because it is a matter of great interest and relevance to this discussion that the Commonwealth Immigrants Act only figures in the Bill because it is, and was introduced as, a temporary Measure.
That situation makes it all the more incumbent upon us to examine this Money Resolution carefully. Of course, all Money Resolutions should be examined carefully but in a case where an Act is temporary it is all the more necessary for us to see what changes are made from year to year. Many people in the country do not appreciate that the Act was not introduced as a permanent piece of legislation. It was only got through the House because it was said that it would
1474
last only twelve months and that we should have full opportunity to reexamine it after that period. Thus, many of us who are concerned with the subsequent debates on the subject are not limited in any way by the Money Resolution.
We now have a peculiar situation under the new White Paper on Immigration, part of which we shall be discussing next week. The White Paper proposes many further measures for limiting or controlling immigration in different forms and this Money Resolution presumably indicates how much the Exchequer will have to contribute to deal with the new proposals involved in the White Paper.
The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is getting wider than the Money Resolution which applies only to the Bill which will continue the Commonwealth Immigrants Act and not to the White Paper.
Mr. Foot: I was directing my remarks to that part of the White Paper which is dealt with under this Bill, Sir Samuel. I realise that it is only one part of the White Paper but under the White Paper's proposals are made for extending the control over immigration into this country.
The Chairman: Order. We cannot discuss those proposals now but only what come under this Resolution Bill.
Mr. Foot: I understand that, Sir Samuel, but I would have thought it proper for us to establish tonight that the debate which we shall have in Committee on the Bill will not in any way be limited by the form of the Money Resolution. What some of us are seeking to ensure now is that our rights of debate in Committee on the Bill are not in any way circumscribed by the Money Resolution which we now have to pass.
It would not help us much next week if we were told, when we wanted to discuss something in the Bill, that we cannot do so because we have passed a Money Resolution which has laid down a figure. We want to clear up the matter now rather than be called up by the Chair next week. I would rather be called up by the Chair tonight than next week, although perhaps that will happen on both occasions.

1475
We want to be clear that this Money Resolution will not limit the fullest discussion of the fresh proposals made in the White Paper in so far as they are covered by this Bill. If we can have an undertaking of that nature it will go a considerable way to relieving any anxiety we might have about it. But on the basis of this Money Resolution and the explanation given in the Explanatory Memorandum it is difficult to understand whether this will be so or not because the numerous proposals which are included in the White Paper will, in my opinion, cost more than is suggested in the Explanatory Memorandum.
10.15 p.m.
Therefore, I want to make sure that the amounts to which we are now agreeing do not in any way limit the full debate which many of us will wish to have next week on a matter which we regard as of the first importance and of the first principle for the country, and which we wish to have debated so that everybody in the country can understand it. I hope that the Financial Secretary will assure us that the Resolution is drawn in such a manner that the debate will not be limited in any sense whatever.
Mr. Robert Cooke: I want to ask about the provisions of Part VII of the Licensing Act, 1964, which are to be continued and for which we are now being asked to approve money. I want to ask one straight question of the Government so that perhaps we can avoid discussion later. How much are we being asked to provide for the continuation of these provisions of the Licensing Act and how long do the Government propose to go on having a licensing planning provision, about which we have debated so often in the past?
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): I have listened fascinated to the debate, as I always do when hon. Members attempt to keep within the rules of order for a debate on a Money Resolution. I am a mere Financial Secretary and I can give very little assistance to my hon. Friends. All I have come to do is to debate in Committee the terms of the Money Resolution which, as I understand it, is all that is in order. I have
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been asked many intriguing questions which I cannot answer and, if I could answer them, I would be out of order in doing so—whether the money which it is proposed should be made available could be better used in other ways, whether the Minister of Health will have sufficient powers to exercise proper controls, and whether the Home Office has worked out its costs properly. All these are matters of which I am in complete ignorance, but I suggest that the Committee is not concerned with it. The only question is whether the terms of the Money Resolution are satisfactory.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) of course directed his mind exclusively to a relevant matter, namely, the terms of the Resolution and whether debate in Committee on the Bill itself would be restricted by the terms of this Money Resolution. I can assure him that I have drafted it to the best of my powers— at least, sanctioned it; I must not pretend too much—in the fervent hope and belief that it will not restrict my hon. Friend in any way. It is in the most general terms and I cannot see any way in which it would restrict debates in the Committee stage of the Bill. I am comforted by the thought that my hon. Friend has not suggested one.
The hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) asked an interesting question, but even though it dealt with a financial matter, namely, how much Parliament would be asked to provide if a particular provision were renewed, that is something which should be raised in the Committee stage of the Bill itself, and I am unable to assist him.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to continue certain expiring laws, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such expenses as may be occasioned by the continuance of section 3 of the Emergency Laws (Repeal) Act 1959 and Part I of, and Schedule 1 to, the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962 till the end of December 1966, and of Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964 till the end of March 1967, being expenses which under any Act are to be paid out of such moneys.
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

MOTOR VEHICLES (COMPETITIONS AND TRIALS)
10.20 p.m.
Mr. David Webster: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) (England) Regulations 1965 (S.I., 1965, No. 1400), dated 13th July 1965, a copy of which was laid before this House on 26th July, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled.
I think that it would be convenient if we discussed with this the Regulations relating to Wales—
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) (Wales) Regulations 1965 (S.I., 1965, No. 1414), dated 14th July 1965, a copy of which was laid before this House on 26th July, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled.
Mr. Speaker: It would be for the convenience of the House.
Mr. Webster: I think that all of us, particularly those of us who are near rally tracks or have people who are active in these matters in our constituency, agree that it is necessary that a new Regulation should be laid in order that public nuisance can be combated and that there should be greater harmony between the active fraternity, the outdoor people, and the unfortunate people who are trying to sleep at night or have a little peace in their homes. It is a matter of blending sport and amenity, and a decent life for all of us. I am glad to have the opportunity of asking a few questions upon this subject, because it is a complicated and difficult one for the layman and, I think, for some of the experts.
We are dealing with some very complicated documents, and I am glad to see that the Under-Secretary of State for Wales has done us the courtesy of coming here tonight, because I have some questions to ask him. This simple document is almost the rally code, not the Highway Code. It says clearly to organisers that they should thoroughly check their routes and route instructions so as not to mislead competitors, where this is likely to cause annoyance to members of the public. It goes to great lengths to achieve clarity in a very difficult and
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complicated subject, but I am not sure that the drafting is not excessively complicated.
I wonder if either the Parliamentary Secretary or the Under-Secretary could tell us whether they will consider the possibility of simplifying it in due course. Both of these Regulations authorise an examination paper which every organiser has to fill in before he can organise an event. This paper is the start of a fairly lengthy procedure, which is organised, I think, quite well by the R..A. C. which has a great tradition in organising these events. It has done it for very many years. This examination paper goes on at great length, asking for the names and addresses of the promoters of the event, the name of the event, if any, and there are some very familiar events which occur under this. We are not dealing with a very small section of the sport; we are dealing with the wide and active part of the community.
The paper asks for the expected number of vehicles, the type of competing vehicles, whether the rules of the event require or are likely to cause any competitor to traverse any length of the public highway, and so on.
We come to the point of clarity which I raised. Question No. 12 states:
" Provide a tracing of the route of the event from each current one-inch Ordnance Survey sheet traversed by the route."
There are also a lot of cross-references to these routes which are again complicated. The question goes on:
"… omitting any part of the route which is not on a public highway."
Then it refers to the number of the Ordnance Survey sheet. Then it authorises or instructs the organiser to put down two intersecting grid lines appropriately numbered. The Statutory Instrument for the parts of the United Kingdom excluding Wales authorises this document. Paragraph 12(ii). which is set out in Schedule 1—see Regulation 5— authorises two intersecting grid lines appropriately numbered. But what about Wales? Again under paragraph 12(h), for Wales there, is reference to "two interesting grid lines appropriately numbered". Has Wales had a universal declaration of independence? What is this tremendous Welsh Office doing? Can

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we be told what is meant by the reference to "interesting" grid lines rather than "intersecting" grid lines? I should be delighted to give way if we could be told.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler): On behalf of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales and myself, I apologise to the House and to all concerned for a misprint which has occurred in the Welsh Regulations. They should, in this respect, be identical with the Regulations for England. The mistake will be corrected as conveniently as possible.
Mr. Webster: I thank the hon. Gentleman. It shows that, although one does not necessarily have to fill in forms in triplicate, it is worth reading them in duplicate. It gave me enormous pleasure when I saw this today, and I do not mind admitting it. I am surprised that nobody drew my attention to it, although the Parliamentary Secretary knew that that ball was coming. I am glad to hear what the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said and that the Regulations will be reprinted and that the Welsh declaration will be in order and accurate and precise.
We are dealing with both an industry and a sport. While regulating the sport, we want to make sure that there is adequate amenity for the people participating in this activity, which brings out a great deal of hardihood. We might sometimes feel that it is foolhardihood. But this activity involves daring and skill. We have fine racing drivers in this country. Many of them get their experience through rallies and it is right that we should not discourage them excessively.
While I think that we would approve of these Regulations in general, we should not seek to be too officious. We should try to assist these people, because with increasing urban sprawl there is great difficulty in obtaining adequate tracks. The organisers of these events are finding it progressively more difficult to obtain adequate tracks. At the same time, there is the human element of people living in the countryside, as I do. When there is a rally near my part of the world, I very soon get to know about it, and I receive a good postbag. I wonder whether the Minister of Land and Natural
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Resources would be willing to consider doing what his hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams) suggested, namely, that if various places are set aside where these rallies cannot take place, then other places should be set aside where they should be specifically encouraged to take place. This would be a good thing.
We may not all like getting up early in the morning and riding on motor cycles. It is not my idea of pleasure. But there are plenty of people who do this. I respect them, and we should try to assist them. This is an age in which people have a great deal of leisure, and it is right that it should be used healthily. We are not all Mods and Rockers. The people we are discussing are not Mods and Rocker types. They are very different from them. As anybody who represents a country constituency would agree, rights of way are falling into disuse. If one looks at the Ordnance Survey map to which I referred—with its "interesting" grid lines—one will see that there is a vast abundance of rights of way which have fallen into disuse. I see the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Blenkinsop) scowling at me. Not only ramblers but scramblers could use these rights of way. If they are used sensibly, interests would not necessarily clash.
I hope that the complicated form will not bring an excessive amount of difficulty, frustration and delay. At the same time I agree about the control. We have not only a Secretary of State for Wales and his Welsh Office; we have also a Minister for Sport. He has a double interest in this. He has the interest of promoting healthy outdoor activities which this sport entails. He is also the hon. Member for the constituency in which is the Birmingham Small Arms Company, which is the biggest exporter of motorcycles from this country. Therefore, I hope that he will be able to ensure that there is no excessive frustration. There also is the hon. Member for South Shields who has a constituency interest in this, because the firm of Barker's is very active in this field, and there is another firm, Greeves, who had a million dollar order very recently for protective clothing.
This is not just a pastime of the vintage car operator, of the rich people; this is a pastime of the masses. It is a

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good thing, and while we want to regulate them, we should try to get good facilities for these leisures and the promotion of skills. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker), with great persistence, took up the case of the vintage cars and managed to obtain certain concessions. I hope we can have certain assurances tonight.
1 want to be reasonable about them. There is the suggestion about the permanent advisory committee. It has been suggested to me that where an application is turned down there should be an automatic right of appeal. I am not myself going to ask the Minister to go as far as that, but I do ask him this, that if in any particular area there are persistent rejections, this permanent advisory committee can be brought into play to keep an eye on this so that if there is an excessive sequence of rejections it will review them and make sure there is not excessive restriction against the motor-cycle users.
I hope the hon. Gentleman will give an undertaking on this. I am sure he is reasonable and is very willing to do so, but if he does not we shall look at this matter very closely because there are many people whose interest, sport and leisure are affected. If I do not get an undertaking we shall pursue him, and take up cases where there have been persistent rejections, because we want, while getting a fair type of control, to make sure that these people, who are fine and enterprising, have their sport and enjoy it, but do not spoil the living of other people, who are not restricted in their activities.
10.34 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: Before my hon. Friend replies I would merely ask him for his assurance that with these Regulations we are not altering the main feature of the Act, which, of course, ensured that before controls took place, particularly on footpaths and tracks in the countryside, there should be application to the planning authority concerned. As far as I can see, that provision is still retained. I only want to be assured about the special provision which seems now to be brought in paragraph 3 of the new Regulations which seems to indicate that there are certain types of event which do not require that authorisation in the future.
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I fully agree with the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Webster) about the need for proper provision for groups of this kind. He is quite light. They are admirable and vigorous groups of young people who enjoy this sport, and it is right that they should have the facilities for it. It is equally right that other people's enjoyment, perhaps of a quieter kind, should not be interfered with. There have been some unfortunate occasions when older people and others have been walking on our hillsides when they have been suddenly horrified by being overtaken by a group of vigorous motorcyclists, no doubt enjoying themselves but damaging the enjoyment of many others.
This is symptomatic of the great problem we face as a result of the increasing extension of leisure time. There will inevitably be hosts of examples of conflicts of this kind which must be sorted out. I wish to be assured, therefore, that as a result of these Regulations we are not giving up any of the important safeguards which were included in earlier legislation.
Since the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare mentioned a constituency point and named a firm which I know well, he may be interested to learn that this enterprising company, which manufactures raincoats and protective clothing for motor-cyclists, also manufactures— and has for many years—some good equipment for walkers. The firm's interests are not all on the one side therefore.
10.37 p.m.
Mr. T. L. Iremonger: The Joint Parliamentary Secretary will be aware that these Regulations have been the subject of considerable criticism from certain quarters. I hope that he will take this opportunity tonight to answer them.
The hon. Gentleman will have received representations against the Chesham Committee's 1964 Report on the control of motor rallies and the draft Regulations from the Civil Service Motoring Association, the British Motor Cyclists' Federation, which was formerly the Federation of National and One-Make Motor Cycle Clubs, and the Amateur Motor Cycle Association. I trust that the House will bear with me while I put some of the points which those organisations have made.
People would like to know why the Amateur Motor Cycle Association and

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the British Motor Cyclists' Federation were not allowed to provide delegates to the Chesham Committee. Both organisations wrote to the right hon. Gentleman who was then the Minister of Transport requesting that they be represented. The present Minister is no doubt aware also of the motor sporting community's criticisms of the Chesham Committee's recommendations. There was great disappointment that the draft Regulations went only a small way to meeting those criticisms.
I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will also say why he has not yet been able to make an announcement on the setting up of a permanent advisory committee, as recommended by the Chesham Committee in paragraph 97, page 229, of its Report. It would also be appreciated if he would give some information about the people who will serve on the Royal Automobile Club agency and exactly how the Ministry is satisfying itself of their competence.
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there has been serious criticism of the Regulations on the grounds that they concentrate primarily on car events, chiefly long-distance rallies and treasure hunts, which are relatively uncommon in the motor-cycle world. Sporting trials are scarcely catered for at all and there are no instructions and there is no advice for laying out performance tests which one might presume are to be observed under paragraph 2(1) of Statutory Instrument No. 1400. It is not clear either whether the trials where the observed sections are organised entirely on private land linked by public road will come
I think the House generally recognises under the Regulations or not. that there is an almost ludicrous amount of permission seeking and consultation mandatory under the Regulations. The average motor-cycle reliability trial route includes major and minor roads and roads used as public paths, footpaths and bridle ways. I do not know whether the Minister has really addressed his mind to the problems that will face the organiser.
First of all, under Section 17 of the 1960 Road Traffic Act, he has to obtain signed permission from every tenant farmer and landowner for the sections of
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footpath and bridle way. There might be 30 to 40 people altogether involved in this, and when he has got their permission he has to press his suit with the county highway authority which may, out of prejudice against the motorcycling sport, refuse him permission without having to substantiate its refusal with any explanation or reason.
Even if permission is granted the organiser has to take out insurance against damaging the footpaths and bridle ways, which some people might regard as obliging the motor-cyclist to ensure against damaging the public highway, for the repair of which he has already paid tax. Then the organiser has to fill in Form E404. If there are any roads used as public paths the agency must consult the local highway authority, and if any part of the route passes through a National Park, there has to be another consultation with the National Park Planning Board.
Then the local police come into the picture, and if they raise no objection the organising club is only then at last allowed to run its trial, but even then perhaps not quite, for under the rules of the Auto-Cycle Union he must obtain a permit from his local A.C.U. Centre Board to make sure that the event does not clash with that of any other club.
The organisers of a motor-cycle trial may be subjected to the objections of any one of the following long list: one or more tenant farmers, one or more landowners, the parish council consulted by the highway authority, the county council highway authority, the county council again for a few hundred yards of extra footpath, possibly the National Park Planning Board, the county chief constable, the county borough chief constable and the R.A.C. agency. All that is merely for one mile of rough track which might possibly have not been regarded by those organising the rally as a very formidable obstacle.
I hope that the Minister will be able to help the House on this matter, for it is felt by the organisers of motor-cycle trials that these rules are unnecessarily complicated, and it seems a great pity that these particular people should be subjected to this kind of obstruction, as they see it. I hope, therefore, that these particular points, which I feel have a

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certain prima facie justification, may be frankly dealt with by the Minister and that he will be able to reassure those who feel that the Regulations have not been framed with their legitimate interests in mind.
10.44 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler): I am not sure whether this is the first time that I have been in confrontation with the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Webster), but if I am right in thinking that this is probably the first of many occasions, let me take the opportunity of saluting him in his present position and wishing him many long years in that seat.
By moving this Prayer the hon. Gentleman has given me a useful opportunity to explain the Regulations, which, on behalf of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales and myself, I readily admit are somewhat complex, and may appear to laymen and to those unacquainted with the organisation of the events with which the Regulations deal to be very complex.
Before I answer the specific points raised, I think it is fair to sketch briefly the background. We should remember that these Regulations, against which the Prayer has been moved, arise from legislation passed in this House in 1962. It was a result of the acceptance in principle, at the time when the Road Traffic Act, 1962, was going through the House, of a widely-supported Clause arising out of an increasing volume of complaints throughout the country about the nuisance and disturbance caused by motor rallies —a Clause for the regulation of the holding of motor sporting events on public highways. That led to Section 36—in place of another proposal made at that time—of the Road Traffic Act, 1962, which makes it an offence
" after such day as the appropriate Minister may by order made by statutory instrument appoint "
to promote or take part
"in a competition or trial … involving the use of motor vehicles on a public highway … unless the competition or trial is authorised, and is conducted in accordance with any conditions imposed, by or under regulations under this section."
"The appropriate Minister" is, in the case of England, my right hon. Friend
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the Minister of Transport, for Wales the Secretary of State, and for Scotland also the Secretary of State.
With the passage of that legislation, so widely supported, for the regulation of these events, there was set up by our predecessors in the Ministry of Transport the Chesham Committee, the Motor Rallies Advisory Committee, which reported in March, 1964. The Committee reported in favour of the regulation of these events and indicated the way in which it should be done, and these Regulations follow very closely indeed all the recommendations made by the Chesham Committee.
To deal with a point raised by the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger), it is true that not everybody was represented on the Chesham Committee. It would have been an extraordinary Committee if they had been. The various organisations in the transport world which might or might not make out a claim to have an interest in this matter, would have been so multifarious that the Committee would undoubtedly have been quite unmanageable. But I think it is true to say that the composition of the Committee included members from all the most important organisations, including, in respect of motor cyclists, the Auto-Cycle Union, and all the principal national organisations that were concerned with these matters.
Mr. Iremonger: Would the hon. Gentleman say what was the sort of age of the representatives of the motor cycle interests? Were these young men who rode motor cycles, or were they more mature men who had not had experience of modern conditions at all?
Mr. Swingler: I think it would be out of order for me to discuss that matter. In any case, I do not know. I have not studied the age distribution of the Chesham Committee. However, I should like to refer to an important point made by the Chesham Committee in its Report. It relates especially to what the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare said about the necessity not to be too officious. We do not want to have too many restrictions and controls and so on, although overwhelmingly Parliament agreed that the case for regulation had been made out.

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The Chesham Committee in its Report.said:
"Having in mind the terms of the legislation we agreed at the outset that our task was to strike a balance between the interests of a sport which is enjoyed by considerable sections of the public and which can incidentally, in our view, provide valuable training in driving skills, and the interests of the public at large, to whom in some cases rallying activities have proved an undoubted nuisance."
It is our job to strike a balance between the interests of the public, to whom rallies of this kind may cause considerable disturbance, noise and sometimes damage, together with interference and congestion on public highways, and the interests of those whom we want to encourage to take part in recreational activities and legitimate sporting events.
Therefore, in reply to the criticisms which have been made, I say that in these Regulations the balance has been struck. Regulation 3 authorises certain small events. We are not being too officious, and not imposing too detailed controls. Events of a comparatively small character are thereby authorised. But I must point out to my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Blenkinsop) that that does not mean that they are authorised to go over footpaths —because there are special protections for footpaths, and specific authority is required for them.
It is clear that without having to fill in any complicated forms small events of this character are authorised by the Regulations themselves, but, as the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare pointed out, for the majority of events—and the Chesham Report estimated that events now number about 8,000 per annum; a considerable number, including all types and ranging considerably in the number of vehicles involved—following the recommendations of the Chesham Committee, we have laid down that those who are going to be charged with the responsibility of giving authority for the holding of these events should require a fair amount of information to be supplied to them.
Efficient and intelligent organisers of these events, who know their jobs, must themselves have this information for the holding of the events. It looks to the unsophisticated layman, not acquainted with the organisation and conducting of
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motor rallies, to be an awfully long form to fill in. Many details are required, including map sheet numbers and tracings. But public highways are involved and those who are conducting large events of this character, for whatever purpose they are doing so—there are problem-solving events and treasure hunts, for example— must inform themselves before the event of the number of vehicles participating, the times of leaving the starting point, and the time of finishing, as well as the route to be followed and the relationship they will have with other traffic and with amenity in the area in which the events are being held. Therefore, to the sophisticated organisers of these events we do not think that the answering of these questions is very difficult.
But what is the principal reason that lies behind the questions to which the hon. Member referred—from No. 13 onwards—on the application form? The principal reason is the decision to divide responsibility for authorising these events between the police and the Royal Automobile Club. This again follows the recommendation made and is along the natural line that, broadly speaking, events and rallies which take place within one county police area are matters which should come under the authority of the chief constable of that area, or if two county boroughs close together are involved it should be a matter between the two chief constables. But there is the great difficulty with events where competitors go all over the country that if it was a matter for the chief constables to grant authorisation a tremendous amount of conferring and consultation would be required. It is felt that where events of this kind cross county boundaries and involve more than one police authority the authorisation should be by the Club which has become so well-known and is so experienced in organising these events, the Royal Automobile Club, under conditions laid down in these Regulations.
The point of the questions in the application form is to discover the classification of the event, to find out, for instance, whether it is a time-schedule or problem-solving event and whether it takes place in one or more police districts so as to make clear to the applicant and others whether it should fall under the authority of the chief constable or of the R.A.C.

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The R.A.C. will work in close conjunction with the police authorities.
We realise that authorisation is an important burden to impose on those concerned. We do not want too much of the burden to fall on police forces, nor the R.A.C. to be overloaded. We hope, therefore, that the balance has been struck in a natural, intelligible and proper way in enabling both the police force and the R.A.C. to authorise these sorts of events. Although the procedure may appear complex to those from whom the information must be obtained and who have to come to grips with these forms, the questions are necessary and the information must be at the disposal of the authorities.
It has; been pointed out that to reduce nuisance and disturbance to the public there should be established—and I know that the R.A.C. is establishing it—a system of apportioning events all over the country, by rationing routes so that the residents of a particular district are not over-bothered and disturbed by a continual series of events and rallies. To facilitate that and to carry into effect action as recommended by the Committee, it is desirable to have maps and tracings showing where the events will occur and how they will relate to other events and rallies in that and surrounding districts so that a rationing system can virtually be carried out for the benefit of the public and the preservation of amenities.
I have been asked about the recommendation of the Chesham Committee that a permanent advisory committee should be established. I have said that we have followed the recommendations of the Motor Rallies Advisory Committee very closely. On this point, we are still considering the terms of reference to be laid down and the desirable composition of a permanent advisory committee. I am not in a position, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, to make an announcement about it tonight, but an announcement will be made very soon.
The question of appeal against denial of authority was carefully considered by the Chesham Committee, which found against a system of appeal. Of course, in this case, the appropriate appeal body is my right hon. Friends the Minister and the Secretary of State. The persons to whom any complaints about the operation of these Regulations should be addressed
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are the Ministers who have over-all responsibility for the implementation of the Road Traffic Act and Regulations made under it.
We realise that changes may be necessary. The Regulations came into force on 1st September, and the appointed day after which authority will be required will be 1st March next year. We have yet to gain practical experience of how the Regulations will work out. I assure the House that we shall watch how the detailed provisions work and be prepared to review the Regulations.
Mr. Webster: I cannot press the hon. Gentleman too much about how soon a permanent advisory committee will be set up, but can he say definitely that it will be in action by the time the Regulations come into effect?
Mr. Swingler: I certainly hope so. Work is going ahead rapidly to get the right terms of reference and an acceptable composition for a committee. We hope that it will be in being by 1st March, ready from the beginning to study any complaints which are made and to consider and advise my right hon. Friends upon any changes which might be thought necessary.
I hope that I have covered the points which hon. Members have raised, though I may well not have dealt with them all. I appreciate, as the hon. Member for Ilford, North said, that there will still be people who object to having such a system of regulation at all. I hope that those who remain critical will none the less take into account that, in 1962, Parliament was so influenced by the volume of complaints about disturbance and nuisance that it was overwhelmingly felt necessary to devise and implement such regulations. I hope, also, that those who are concerned in the promotion and organisation. of rallies for recreation, sport, testing or other purposes will apply their minds, with us, to any improvements or reforms in the Regulations which may prove to be necessary. I assure the House that my right hon. Friend, after we have had experience of their application, will be ready to consider improvements which could be made.
Question put and negatived.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Roderic Bowen): Does the hon. Member for

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Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Webster) wish to move his second Motion?
Mr. Webster: Having heard the Parliamentary Secretary's reply, I do not wish to move that Motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

CLYDE SHIPYARDS
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. O'Malley.]
11.7 p.m.
Mr. Edward M. Taylor: I am very glad to have the opportunity of bringing the Government's attention to some aspects of the plight of the Clyde shipyards. I appreciate the attendance of the hon. Member for Renfrew, West (Mr. Buchan), who represents a Clyde shipyard seat, and other Scottish colleagues who are showing their undoubted interest in the question.
I have for some time been reluctant to press this question in the House because I think that all connected with the industry agree that nothing does more harm than the constant repetition of its problems and its serious difficulties. Frequent speeches about labour problems, demarcation disputes, heavy trading losses, late deliveries and yard closures can have the effect of scaring away many able young technicians and managers from taking up employment in the industry—and it is youth, enthusiasm, optimism and flexibility which are the qualities most urgently required in the yards today. Anyone making such a speech therefore takes on a considerable responsibility, but I am convinced that the present plight of the Clyde yards must be clearly and accurately voiced in the House, particularly as the Government will soon be called upon to take action on the recommendations of the Geddes Committee.
What do we mean by the Clyde shipyards? The industry covers a wide area and also a wide variety of shipbuilding capacity. On the one hand, we have the great yards like John Browns of Clydebank, Fairfields and Stephens of Govan, and Scotts of Greenock, who specialise in the massive bulk vessels for carrying oil as well as the intricate and costly detail of Admiralty vessels or
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passenger liners. There are the yards like Lithgows of Port Glasgow, the Greenock Dockyard, and the Glasgow yards of Connells and Barclay Curie, who have obtained orders for bulk carriers in face of world competition. Then there are the specialist firms—Yarrows for ferries and vessels of war, Ferguson Brothers, Ailsa of Troon, Scotts of Bowling and the Ardrossan Dockyard for smaller vessels like dredgers or tugboats. And there are the repairers like Barclay Curie of Elderslie and the new giant Firth of Clyde Dry Dock Company.
Between them, the yards now employ some 17,800 manual workers, which shows how vital their prosperity is to the Clyde district. And if we accept the normal estimate that for every man directly employed in the yards, three outside depend on subcontracted shipyard work, it would seem that about 70,000 families depend on shipbuilding for their livelihood. Apart from those working on ships, there are the shopkeepers—even the newsvendors—whose prosperity is inescapably linked to the yards.
The output of the yards last year was around 345,000 tons and a similar total is expected this year. Although value, and not tonnage, is a better measure for comparison, the news report yesterday that one Japanese yard hoped to launch no less than 620,000 tons this year could not have escaped notice in the Clyde.
What of the problems? The first is the stark question of economic survival. In the past few years we have seen the closure of seven major yards including Blythswood, Denny, Harland and Wolff and Hamiltons, and almost all the closures have stemmed from financial crises or the lack of profitable contracts. Those which survive face serious problems, and hardly one yard is making profits on its shipbuilding activities. This problem of mounting losses was clearly spotlighted by the difficulties of the Fairfield Yard, in whose best interests the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) has so ably campaigned.
On the other hand, there is little shortage of work—at a price—and many firms find themselves in an impossible position. If they take on work at current uneconomic prices to cover part of their overheads, long-term ruin must inevitably come. If they reject contracts, the yard's

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immediate future is endangered and the skilled labour force dispersed.
The uneconomic level of ship prices is a world problem stemming from a surplus shipbuilding capacity throughout the globe. Some countries support their yards with subsidies for prestige or political reasons, and as the crisis develops, unprotected industries abroad look for similar cover, as can be seen from the recent proposal of the Common Market Executive that member States should have minimum subsidies of 10 per cent. and maximum grants of 15 per cent.
The shipbuilders on the Clyde look to the Government to try and have subsidies abolished by international agreement, but failing this it seems inevitable that Governments must consider granting subsidies as great but no greater than those of our international competitors.
Another problem is credit. While refusing to continue the Shipbuilding Credit Scheme the Government introduced new export credit facilities which forced our yards directly into the fierce international market. The result has been a good number of export orders at unremunerative prices, while our own shipping companies, presented with high interest rates and credit restrictions, have built abroad.
The principle of international trade is the exchange of different commodities, but not necessarily the taking in of each other's washing. British yards, accustomed to catering for the needs of our own great shipping industry, find it difficult to appreciate why credit facilities for foreign owners should be so much better than for our British owners and I know that on the Clyde the prospect of renewed shipbuilding credits is keenly awaited.
The success of the yards depends to some considerable degree on investment and on ensuring that the full range of building, refitting and repairing facilities exists on the Clyde for all sizes and types of vessels. Much investment has been undertaken by the yards themselves and the Government-supported dry dock at Greenock has answered a crying need for major dry dock facilities.
At this time, however, there is doubt as to whether the very adequate Clyde facilities will match up fully to the enormous carriers and tankers planned for the future. In this connection, the ambitious
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scheme sponsored by Messrs. John Brown, in which the firm hopes to obtain the co-operation of other yards, is of vital concern. At this stage in the shipyards' history it is clear that a major scheme of this sort could not go ahead without Government support and encouragement. It may be that the Government will question whether they can afford to do this, but many Clyde shipbuilders looking to the future must wonder if we can afford not to.
While such measures on the Government's part could help the Clyde yards, it is clear that the greater part of their problems can only be resolved by management and men. The acute shortage of skilled labour is one of the main difficulties at present and one which can fairly be blamed on the previous Administration. Why? Because they were so successful in attracting new and lighter industries offering remunerative employment in pleasing working conditions that many traditional shipyard workers have obtained employment outwith their own industry. However, although there is an acute shortage of skilled men, it is undeniable that much of the shortage could be made good by the more effective deployment of existing skilled labour.
In the yards we have almost 20 trades— including platers, caulkers, burners, welders, riveters, sheet metal workers, blacksmiths, shipwrights, electricians, joiners, plumbers, coppersmiths, brass finishers, etc.—and all have their own field of work protected and defined by rigid demarcations. This rigidity stems from deep-rooted fears of redundancy— not just the mass unemployment of the 1930s but the structural unemployment which can arise from new techniques and redundant trades even in conditions of full employment. The example and the history of the riveting trade is a recent reminder of this fear.
To remove this inflexibility, which can often result in skilled men wasting hours on a job waiting for the odd hole to be drilled or the odd joint to be tack welded, the fear at the root of rigid demarcations must be tackled. This can only be achieved if skilled men can be assured of smooth entry into another trade after appropriate retraining in the event of structural redundancy.
The other approach is apprenticeships. At present a five-year apprenticeship is

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required for every trade and this must be commenced not later than 17 years of age. In addition, entry into apprenticeships is restricted by many unions which insist that for every five skilled men there must be only one apprentice.
If existing trade demarcations are retained, there is a very strong case for a shorter apprenticeship. Much better would be the provision of a general apprenticeship, say, in the steelwork trades, with specialisation limited to the last year. In this way, while avoiding the danger of Jacks-of-all-trades, provision would be made for transfer to other trades in later years and skilled men would be able to carry out the incidental work associated with their own trade. Such measures would guarantee the jobs of shipyard workers in the Clyde and elsewhere more effectively than any demarcation barrier which ever existed.
Progress in this direction is slow, but the Boilermakers Society, whose membership includes almost all the steel work trades, has recently concluded some very statesmanlike agreements in the Clyde providing for a measure of inter-changeability. The E.T.U. has also taken the initiative in this field. Time is short, but at least the moves are being made in the right direction.
Another vital problem is labour relations. Between January and October, 313,000 hours were lost on the Clyde because of strikes or unofficial meetings in working hours. Although this might only represent about three days for the average worker in 10 months, the unofficial and unexpected nature of a considerable series of stoppages by small groups of men makes the problem much more serious. A two-day strike by 20 maintenance electricians will not affect the total figure very much, but such a dispute can disrupt progress throughout the yard and can result in delays in production leading to late deliveries and heavy penalty clauses.
The answer here is that trade union officials must exercise greater discipline over their members and, therefore, must keep in touch with their day-to-day problems. The employers must give the backing to the unions which makes such discipline a possibility. The plain fact is that unofficial strikes take place because
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unofficial action often appears to pay a handsome dividend.
How often are reasonable claims, advanced in accordance with the agreed procedure by reasonable trade union officials, subject to frustrating delays in negotiations and then to eventual offhand rejections? How often are such rejections followed by unofficial action by the men covered by the claim which leads almost immediately to speedy discussions and eventual concession of the claim? From this the Jack Dashes of tomorrow are born.
It is easy to blame the harassed employers who have to cope from day to day with the constant alarms and cries which inevitably occur in this complex and confusing industry, but I am convinced that a greater degree of consistency in wage negotiation would lead to greater peace and harmony in the future.
I have only briefly gone over some of the problems and I hope that the Minister will be able to give us a general indication of what he thinks about the outlook for the Clyde. One problem has caused a little anxiety. We were delighted recently that the Scottish Office, with the optimism for which it is becoming noted, spent many thousands of pounds of public money to raise the level of the Erskine Bridge. This was done to enable an aircraft carrier to pass under—an aircraft carrier whose cancellation is under consideration, I believe. I appreciate that having had no notice of this, the Minister may find difficulty in replying. However, perhaps the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, whose great interest in the industrial problems of the Clyde we know, may have advised the Minister about this.
I am grateful for the opportunity to put these problems, and I look forward to the reply.
11.20 p.m.
Mr. Norman Buchan: I will be very brief, because my hon. Friend the Minister of State will wish to reply to most of the issues which the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) has raised.
The hon. Gentleman got nowhere with every problem. The problem at the moment is not lack of orders and certainly not that of boundary disputes. The problem is that, despite the orders,

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the yards have been unable to make a profit. There thus arises the question of the size of the shipbuilding industry and whether we leave it in the realms of trying to make a profit, letting the unfit go to the wall, as was suggested by the last Administration, or involve the public presence in the shipyards.
Secondly, far from its being the fault of the men, to a very large extent it has been the fault of the management in failing to develop new forms of technique and making the right kind of expenditure into the right kind of research. One thinks of the proportion of research devoted to hull and propulsion instead of into the nature of shipbuilding and one remembers that 75 per cent. of costs are incurred at termini rather than when the ship is in transit. One considers the lack of investment in technological advance.
The hon. Gentleman glossed lightly over the problem of the lack of skilled workers. On the Clyde, where there is a shortage of about 900 skilled men, the basic reason for that is that over the last 13 years of Tory rule there was constant migration of our best and most highly skilled men to the richer pastures in the South from the Tory-controlled Clyde where there was a decline in these skills.
11.21 p.m.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Roy Mason): I would not have believed that any intelligent person could have voiced so many inaccuracies in such a short time about any industry which determines the future livelihood of so many of his constituents. I will express one agreement with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor)—it is pleasant to note that while so many of my hon. Friends who represent Scottish constituencies are present with me, he has not one hon. Member on his side of the House, neither on the Front Bench nor the back benches, to support him. He is alone in the House, and that is a disgraceful reflection not only upon himself, but on the point of view which he has been expressing about the future of the Clyde shipbuilding industry.
He trotted out a lot of the old dogma which comes from those who have had a sparse interest in the industry as a whole.
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He referred to what he called the shortage of apprentices and he trotted out the old credit scheme which the Tories introduced in 1963 and he spoke of the problem of competition from new industries. He failed to do a service to the House and the Clyde shipbuilding industry by not facing the real challenge to the industry and by failing to point out for the enlightenment of the House what must happen within the industry in order that in future it can face its challenges, particularly the international challenge.
Let us examine some of the points he raised; first, the intake of apprentices. The unions really have moved on this matter and it is no longer a problem on the Clyde. In February, 1965, there were 8,585 journeymen and 1,477 apprentices in the industry. The latest figures which I have, for the latter part of August, 1965, are that there are 10,513 journeymen and 1,729 apprentices. These figures reflect the increased activity in the yards. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour has told me that there has been an increase in the intake of potential apprentices in recent months, and no unfilled vacancies are in circulation at the moment. Therefore, what the hon. Gentleman had to say about apprentices had no validity.
On the issue of employment generally; the hon. Gentleman ought to examine the previous Administration's record. Over the period 1957 to 1964, the number of operatives employed in merchant shipbuilding in the United Kingdom fell heavily, by 37 per cent., but the reduction was sharper in the west of Scotland where it fell by nearly 50 per cent. In seven years of Tory administration there were despair and despondency throughout the whole of the industry and particularly on the Clyde.
This year, the trend has been reversed. By August, the increase throughout the United Kingdom as a whole was 8 per cent. and in the west of Scotland it was 15 per cent. For the first time in the past seven or eight years the trend has been reversed.
The hon. Gentleman referred to John Brown's. The proposal which he mentioned was advanced by John Brown's in April of this year.
First of all they want to straighten the River Clyde opposite their yard and to

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develop the existing bed as a site for three building docks and fabrication sheds. This would enable them to increase their annual production to around half a million gross tons, comparable with the larger Japanese yards. The estimated cost of the building docks and the associated facilities would be in the region of £15 million to £17 million, and an interim report by the Clyde Navigation Trust shows that £3 million extra would be required for the river works.
This is a laudable scheme, an imaginative venture, but it is not cheap. The report has been submitted to the Geddes Committee and the Board of Trade. I have received a copy. Because the Geddes Committee will be looking at this I cannot at this stage comment further on the scheme.
Let us look at the problem of shipbuilding and how it affects the Clyde. There are three major changes. They are, local competition, international competition and the change that has to take place within shipbuilding so that the industry changes its outlook from being dependent on home orders, and sets out to capture export orders. We have activated the regions far more than the previous Administration ever did and we have stopped the vortex-sucking pull of the South. Since 1st November, 1964, until 31st October, 1965, the first full year of our Administration, 259 I.D.C.s were approved in respect of 10,022,000 sq. ft. of factory space and an estimated 22,464 additional jobs. In the last year of a Tory Government there were 194 I.D.C.s with an estimated 12,726 jobs.
Mr. Edward M. Taylor rose—
Mr. Mason: I did not interrupt the hon. Gentleman and I have not the time.
Secondly, in the first ten months of 1965, the number of new companies coming to Scotland for the first time was 39 —four more than the whole of 1964, which in itself was a record year. We have launched a new programme for advance factories, and in this Government's first year of office 21 advance factories have been authorised for Scotland, compared with 23 during the last five years under a Tory Administration.
There is, of course, keen competition for labour, particularly skilled labour, but
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unemployment in Scotland has dropped from 4 per cent. in October, 1963, to 2·7 per cent. last month. This is in itself a challenge to shipbuilding on the Clyde. Working conditions, industrial relations, consultations, permanency of work—all of these will be in direct contrast in these new industries. Although there may be an anxious time for those who work in shipbuilding during the growth of this challenge, it is likely that the industry will have to take steps by countering with better conditions, including its man-management relationships, and building the bridges of confidence by genuine consultations between management and men.
The hon. Gentleman cannot expect the Government to slow down their regional development for the sake of shipbuilding, and the workers of Scotland and its representatives in this House would not expect us to do so.
Mr. Taylor: I never suggested that.
Mr. Mason: Mollycoddling is not the answer, but the challenge to become competitive and make the industry attractive is. That is what I expect to see happening.
In the international field, the Swedes have a higher standard of living and they are more successful than we are. The Japanese, too, are better. They can lay down a 70,000 deadweight ton tanker in 22 weeks, from keel to launching. In Britain it takes twice as long. These countries can do this because they have examined more scientifically the building techniques involved. This is where management must look at British shipbuilding. A few weeks ago I had an expert on critical path analysis in my office to show me a film and give me a talk on the technique. How many yards are applying that technique in production? Only nine. This is what really matters—how fast steel can flow through the shipyards, how fast we can build ships, bring down costs, increase productivity, and gradually compete with the Japanese.
Then there is the changing pattern of shipbuilding output. Prior to the advent of this new Labour Administration the British shipbuilding industry had been accustomed to exporting 20 per cent. of its annual output. Those days must go—if British shipbuilding is to survive. The Swedes and the Japanese at their

1501
worst in past years were exporting 40 per cent.; in some instances 70 per cent. —at their best. With the introduction of the easier and cheaper credit scheme for export of capital goods—not just for shipbuilding—that industry was incidentally assisted. This year, the first of this Government, the industry has captured 1½ million gross tons of shipbuilding orders, most of which, 1 million tons, were export orders. That is the trend for the future. British shipbuilding must never again rely on British shipowners or horns orders for its existence. It must be prepared to capture more export orders in the future than ever in the past.
The hon. Member talked of the Tory shipbuilding credit scheme. Does he really want to resurrect a scheme which was an abysmal failure, which did nothing for the industry at all? This was more political than a design to assist the industry. It was introduced in May, 1963. It was designed to last a year, until May, 1964. Two months before the scheme came into operation all shipowners who knew it was coming into being delayed orders. Those who had a phased programme, and were going to place orders after the scheme, brought them forward, so we got premature ordering; but also late ordering—later than it would otherwise have been—so that we had a bunching or orders. Orders totalled 900,000 tons of shipping. The scheme cost £75 million of credit. But it failed. What it did was to give a temporary injection into the industry, to deal with the unemployed shipyard workers, of whom there were at that time 19,000. That was the Tory Administration of that time trying to improve matters just before the election, but the scheme did nothing for the industry at all. There was a chance to do something for the industry, and they failed. Few yards did not fail to make themselves more efficient in that time. The scheme really hid the inefficiencies and it kept the yards going— and we have seen some evidence of that today, and it slowed down the natural
1502
rationalisation which would otherwise have taken place. It was a failure. Then we came into office in October, 1964. The industry was as sick then as it was in 1963, and six months after the scheme itself had finished in May, 1964. By October, 1964, the industry was sick again. There had been a short-term injection, but no permanency, and it was not planned as a permanent cure for the shipbuilding. That is what we are intent on now.
The main problems facing the industry are slow building, late launches and the resulting danger of nations abroad losing faith in us. The time has arrived when the national leaders in the unions in the industry and the Shipbuilding Employers Federation should get together and issue a clarion call to all those who work in the yards, whose future is at stake, to examine their techniques, iron out restrictive practices which exist on both sides, among managements as well as the men. Management should confide in the men. Let them not wait for Geddes. Let them not wait for another Fairfield's. Let them tackle the bottlenecks which exist in the industry so that we can increase productivity and increase building now. That must be done and that is the lesson the industry is learning today. I hope that it will tackle it immediately.
Mr. Edward M. Taylor: Would the hon. Gentleman explain the reason for his outrageously offensive reply which, I believe, is foreign to Adjournment debates and to the speech which I made?
Mr. Mason: If the hon. Gentleman is misinformed and tries to mislead the House in what purports to be an intelligent appraisal of the shipbuilding industry of the Clyde, it is up to me most forcibly to impress on him that he is wrong.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Twelve o'clock.

BOARD OF TRADE
  Import Charge (E.F.T.A. Consultations)
  Import Charge (E.F.T.A. Consultations)
  Advance Factories, Scotland
  Advance Factories, Scotland
  Exchange Telegraph Co., Ltd. (Closure of Services)
  Exchange Telegraph Co., Ltd. (Closure of Services)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Attempted Burglary, Hertfordshire
  Attempted Burglary, Hertfordshire
  Motor Vehicle Licence Duty (Evasion)
  Motor Vehicle Licence Duty (Evasion)
  Pornographic Film Shows (Police Action)
  Pornographic Film Shows (Police Action)
  Oxford Prison (Replacement)
  Oxford Prison (Replacement)
BECHUANALAND, BASUTOLAND AND SWAZILAND
  United Nations Resolution
  United Nations Resolution
UNITED NATIONS
  Government Policies
  Government Policies
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Immigrants (Health Checks)
  Immigrants (Health Checks)
  Motorised Tricycles (Waiting List)
  Motorised Tricycles (Waiting List)
HOSPITALS
  Emergency Power Supplies
  Emergency Power Supplies
  Proposed New Hospital, Headington
  Proposed New Hospital, Headington
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Intensive Animal Husbandry (Brambell Committee Report)
  Intensive Animal Husbandry (Brambell Committee Report)
  Animal Feedingstuffs (Northern Ireland Imports)
  Animal Feedingstuffs (Northern Ireland Imports)
  Duphavac Vaccine
  Duphavac Vaccine
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Regional Research
  Regional Research
  Prices and Incomes Policy (Earnings)
  Prices and Incomes Policy (Earnings)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  School Building Programme, Woodstock
  School Building Programme, Woodstock
  Royal Commission
  Royal Commission
  Nursery Facilities
  Nursery Facilities
MINISTRY OF LABOUR
  Stoppages and Lost Working Days
  Stoppages and Lost Working Days
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Interest-free loans
  Interest-free loans
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Applicants, Petersfield
  Applicants, Petersfield
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Motor Cars registered in Southern Ireland (Entry into Northern Ireland)
  Motor Cars registered in Southern Ireland (Entry into Northern Ireland)
  Non-Industrial Civil Service (Pay)
  Non-Industrial Civil Service (Pay)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark

INFLAMMABLE NIGHTDRESSES
3.5 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make a statement concerning the effect that The Children's Nightdresses Regulations 1964 have had on the relevant accident figures and whether it is proposed to extend these Regulations to nightdresses for the elderly.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, the Children's Nightdresses Regulations came into operation on October 1, 1964. During the following six months, four girls under the age of fifteen died as a result of their nightwear catching alight. This compared with ten during the same period in the preceding year. Particulars of non-fatal accidents are not available. The reduction in the number of these tragic deaths is encouraging, but I cannot say with certainty how far it has been due to the Regulations. The possibility of extending the scope of the Regulations to other children's garments, to nightwear for the elderly and to material sold in the piece is being considered by a Working Party which my right honourable and learned friend has set up for this purpose.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. May I ask him whether he will arrange that the Home Office Working Party will discuss the problem of flammability and nightdresses for the elderly as a first priority, because I understand that it is low on their list at the
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moment? Secondly, so as to expedite this inquiry, will he arrange that their discussions shall be limited to nightdresses for the elderly and not clothing in general?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give that assurance. Nor can I confirm what my noble friend said about the question of nightdresses for the elderly being low on the list. It is certainly a matter which the Working Party is considering, and on which we hope to have its views as quickly as possible.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: May I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that his answer is not really satisfactory? I fully realise that he will have to check whether my information is correct. If it happens that it is correct, would not it be good idea if he, as Minister at the Home Office, would ask this Working Party to upgrade this matter to one of first priority rather than leave it, as I suggest it is at the moment, a low one?
LORD STONHAM: As Minister with direct responsibility for this matter, I will certainly look into what my noble friend has said. The Working Party has already met three times, and is working hard on this subject and related ones. We hope to hear from it quite soon. I ask my noble friend to realise that this is not the only priority, important as it is. A few days ago a small child was burned to death because it was wearing a nightdress made up from material by the mother. This also is another matter which we regard as having a high priority.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: I am sorry to rise for a third time, but my noble friend has now gone on to a different tack. May I ask whether he would agree that, while everybody wishes to help in this matter, it surely is not practical to suggest that all materials sold in shops should be non-flammable, or alternatively, that anyone can control the material used by people who make up garments at home?
LORD STONHAM: I must remind my noble friend that she started off by asking me to confine the work of the Working Party to safeguards for nightwear for elderly people—
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: No, I am sorry. On a point of order, my Lord. I asked my noble friend to upgrade it, not to confine it.
LORD STONHAM: Then I misunderstood my noble friend. I would merely point out that there are other matters which some people regard as extremely urgent and important. With regard to the last part of her question, I visited Courtaulds at Coventry a few weeks ago, and they do not share the view expressed by my noble friend that there is no hope of making arrangements for supplying materials of low flammability. This matter is now the subject of consideration by them and by the Working Party, and we hope for favourable results.

CLOSE SEASON FOR PARTRIDGE SHOOTING
3.8 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government on what grounds they have rejected the representations made to them that the close season for the shooting of partridges should be extended.]
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, in 1954 the Gamekeepers' Association of the United Kingdom proposed that, in order to arrest a decline in the partridge population, the close season for shooting, which is now from February 1 to August 31, should be extended to include the month of January and the first fortnight in September. In April last the British Field Sports Society urged that the proposed extension should be limited to the month of January. It did not, however, appear to Her Majesty's Government that the proposal commanded support among all the interests involved or that voluntary restrictions on shooting would not suffice to achieve the desired object. Legislation would be required to alter the close season, and I cannot hold out any hope of Government legislation for this purpose.
LORD DERWENT: The noble Lord mentioned "interested parties". Is he aware that the Field Sports Association,
686
the Country Landowners' Association and the Gamekeepers' Association are all in favour of shortening the shooting season for partridges? Then at the end of his reply the noble Lord said that this would require legislation. May I ask him, if a Private Member's Bill were introduced, what attitude the Home Office would take towards it? Would they help with the Bill?
LORD STONHAM: I am aware, of course, that the bodies mentioned by the noble Lord are in favour of extending the close season. I have reason to believe that the partridges also are in favour of this. On the other hand, the Wild Fowlers' Association of Great Britain and Ireland indicated strong reservations, and the Nature Conservancy reserves its position. This is, therefore, a very controversial matter. With regard to legislation, I cannot commit the Government in advance, but it is likely that the Government would adopt a neutral attitude to this matter, if a Private Member's Bill were introduced. Obviously, in the present congested state of the legislative programme we could not give priority to this subject.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, may I ask how many partridges are shot by wildfowlers?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord may ask, but without notice of the question I cannot reply.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, arising out of the original Question and the replies by the Minister, are Her Majesty's Government aware that this proposed curtailment of the shooting season for partridges is not approved by the Shooting Committee of the British Field Sports Association and by sportsmen generally; and, secondly, that the lamentable reduction in the number of partridges throughout the country cannot be attributed to a long shooting season, but to a succession of bad breeding years and the use of toxic chemicals?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, what the noble Earl has said confirms me in my view that this is a very controversial matter. In regard to the second part of his question, I entirely agree that the shortage of partridges may be due not so much to over-shooting as to changes in farming methods, the increase of arable

687
land, fewer hedgerows and, as the noble Earl said, the increased use of pesticides.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, the Minister referred to the partridge population. We also hear from time to time of the pig population. Would it be possible for Her Majesty's Government to give a complete list of the animals they consider people?
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, will my noble friend advise the Government to resist this clamour from the Party opposite for stricter and stricter controls?

BUSES IN CENTRAL LONDON
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can give any information on the prospects of increasing the number of buses running in Central London.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, I am informed by the London Transport Board that, while their schedules should provide a sufficient number of buses in Central London to meet the demand, traffic congestion and staff shortages do interfere with the regularity of services. Since the noble Lord's previous Question on this subject, the Greater London Council, at the Minister's invitation, set up a Working Party with the Metropolitan Police and the London Transport Board to consider ways in which further traffic management measures could help to improve the Board's bus services. Their report has been endorsed by the Greater London Council.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. While I appreciate that traffic makes the keeping of timetables very difficult, will the noble Lord look again into this matter to see that the existing services really meet demand? One would think that if a public transport service in the centre of a great city were really to meet the needs of that city, buses should run more frequently than they do in Central London to-day.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, if this Committee has reported, would the noble Lord give us the benefit of the suggestions they have made for curing this problem, which, he has informed the House, the Greater London Council have endorsed?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, if I may, with due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, deal with the questions in reverse, I would say that the report to the Greater London Council was publicly discussed in the Council and there were Press reports, but I will try to get a copy of the report for the noble Lord. The report is in two sections. First of all, it gives short-term methods—control of parking, one-way streets, no right turns, clearways, et cetera. I am convinced, and so is the Minister, that the only long-term solution will depend on the restriction of traffic on roads where buses operate, but that is a very difficult problem and it is on this that the Working Party are at work, in conjunction with the Ministry.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, are the Government aware that today, between 12 and 1, there was practically a complete cessation of traffic everywhere eastwards of Park Lane and a complete and utter jam? And will they take steps to try to improve the distribution and flow of traffic in Central London before they consider adding more buses to the number which already cause so much congestion?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, we are approaching Christmas, and whatever else Christmas does, it adds to traffic problems in London. But it is the increase in the motor car population—if I can use the word again—that causes the problem. If we are going to get the free flow of traffic which is essential for public transport, I am convinced that private cars will have to be restricted over many routes.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there was something like twelve buses, nose to tail, up Park Lane to-day, blocking all other traffic coming into or out of the side streets?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, no doubt the noble Earl would also have noticed that there were about a hundred cars with one person in each.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I ask the Government what consideration is being given to the provision of traffic lanes exclusively reserved for buses and taxis, as in Paris, where they have proved a success? And if Her Majesty's Government are favourably considering the adoption of such a suggestion, would not the logical outcome of such a decision be that the police should be empowered to have on-the-spot fining of anyone contravening such regulations?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, in regard to the Paris experiments, I would say that this was part of what I meant by traffic restraint. Part of the plan would be to keep free lanes for bus traffic. In regard to the imposition of fines on the spot, the question ought to be directed more to my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor than to me.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, will the noble Lord call the attention of the London Transport Board to the fact that their No. 11 buses, in spite of all the talk, still run in all too infrequent convoys?
LORD LINDGREN: Yes, my Lords. But may I take this opportunity of paying a compliment to the London bus driver? He works under extremely difficult operating conditions, in addition to which his conditions of service are very difficult indeed—early mornings, late nights, split turns—and in these traffic conditions he does an extremely good job courteously and to the consideration of other traffic.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, with all respect, this particular point has nothing to do with the drivers. It concerns the inspectors, whose job it is to regulate the running of the buses.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the obvious method of traffic control is the turn-round. If you turn round at Aldwych a bus which is going to Hackney Wick, then between Aldwych and Hackney Wick there will be a bus short.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, as it is not possible for me to put a question to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, may I ask the noble Lord whether his Department would stress to the Home Office the advantage of having on-the-spot fines? Otherwise, if the
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Government do adopt the system in use in Paris these regulations would be contravened if fines could not be imposed immediately when motorists and other road users contravened such regulations.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, that would involve changing the British attitude towards the imposition of a penalty for a wrong-doing. But I will certainly call the attention of the Home Office to it, and we could discuss it in relation to the Bill which is to be brought forward either towards the end of this year or early next year.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, does the noble Lord recognise that no question from this side has in any way criticised the conduct of bus drivers, who we agree have a difficult task to perform? I noted the noble Lord's remarks about bus drivers, but there has certainly been no criticism of their conduct from this side. At the same time, could the noble Lord give an assurance that greater steps will be taken, if possible, to ensure that these convoys, which do cause great irritation, are broken up into smaller fragments?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount, and I am more than sorry if I appeared to imply that the questions from the other side were critical of the bus driver. But I was given an opportunity to pay a compliment to the bus driver, and questions in regard to services naturally reflect to an extent on those who operate them. If a bus is late, the fellow one usually swears at is the conductor or the driver. We will certainly consider all the points that have been raised and do our best to implement some of them.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask whether it is not the case that all questions in this House are asked of Her Majesty's Government and it is entirely a matter of indifference whether they are answered by a noble Lord on the Government Front Bench or by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, provided that we get the right answer?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONG FORD): My Lords, the noble Lord is an outstanding authority on the Rules and conventions of the House and I entirely agree with what he has just said.

RHODESIA: MONITORING OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
3.24 p.m.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when the Prime Minister telephoned Mr. Ian Smith on the morning of 11th November, Mr. Smith had been informed that the call was being monitored.]
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: No, my Lords. It was self-evident that an exceptional telephone call of the kind which took place in the very special circumstances of the morning of November 11 would be listened to in order that an accurate record should be available.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether it is not self-evident from the transcript, whatever reservations the Prime Minister may have had, and not self-evident from the candour, some might think the damaging candour, of Mr. Smith's reply, that he had no idea that whatever he was saying was going to be taken down and used against him? May I ask the noble Earl this further question? Does he know of any other Government, except, of course, the Russian, which would publish something that is clearly a confidential exchange, without the permission of the other party to the exchange?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, of course I cannot say for certain whether the telephone call was listened to at Mr. Smith's end. We assumed that it was being listened to, and there is evidence to bear out that it was in subsequent statements by Mr. Smith. That answers the first part. About the second question the noble Lord put, I am sorry to say that I find it remarkably insulting to the present Government to imply that we should stoop to conduct which no other country in the world but Russia would stoop to. The answer is that it is to be regarded as a natural thing to do in the circumstances.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My My Lords, are we to understand that, not only before, but after this conversation,
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Mr. Smith was not told of the monitoring, and that he was not asked to check any conversation which was afterwards to be published? That would seem to be a very unusual procedure for any Government.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, as the noble Marquess has intervened, perhaps I might call attention to something that he said in the debate on Monday. He said:
"We have had two accounts of those discussions, one from Mr. Wilson and one from Mr. Smith; and, as so often on occasions like this, they differ widely."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 270 (No. 4), col. 269; 15/11/65.]
He later said:
"I therefore cannot personally accept sans phrase, the Prime Minister's account of what emerged from the discussions."—[Col. 269.]
if anybody was going to raise that kind of point, that he could not accept the Prime Minister's account, it seems to me particularly fortunate that a check was taken.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I was referring to a statement made by Mr. Smith in his broadcast. I do not know what the House thinks, but to me this is a very unusual procedure. I have never heard of it happening before in our history on an important matter.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, of course the situation here was very unusual. No doubt there would not have been publication of this kind in the ordinary way, if U.D.I. had not followed. But here we were dealing with a rebellion, which happens very seldom, and this exceptional step was necessary. Since Mr. Smith has come into it—and I have no desire to make further criticism of him at the moment—I would say that he did not hesitate to give an account of his discussions with the Governor shortly after they had taken place.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, while recognising the desirability of a record being kept of conversations between Prime Ministers—and this is always done in one form or another—is not the real question here whether the account was published with Mr. Smith's consent or without his consent? Could the noble Earl say whether in the course of the conversation, or afterwards, Mr. Smith was asked to agree to the record being published, or whether any approach was made to him?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, the answer is that, to the best of my belief, he was not asked for his agreement. By that time he had become a rebel, and a new situation had been created.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: That is the position: a new situation had been created, and therefore the ordinary procedure was not followed. I do not suppose for one moment that if the noble Viscount's Government had been in power they would have followed it.
LORD GLENDEVON: My Lords, would it not be better to accept the position that, even regarding somebody who had put himself out of court (if you like to say it like that) as Mr. Smith had, at a crisis or at any other time, for those in the sort of position he was in, talking to the Prime Minister of this country, it must be possible to have confidential telephone conversations without their being published unless they agree to it?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I must return to the point I made to the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. On Monday the noble Marquess said that we could not be sure if Mr. Wilson's account was correct or incorrect. If that point was to be made, then it was invaluable to have this record. I assure the noble Lord that it was entirely normal that this conversation should be listened to. The only question—and the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, raised this—was whether publication would be normal; and the answer is that it would not be normal without the permission of the other party, and it would not have occurred on this occasion unless there had been a U.D.I. This kind of thing has frequently occurred in the past.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, are we, as Parliamentarians and sophisticated people, really being asked to believe that a Prime Minister in these circumstances is so naive that he does not anticipate in the first case that the conversation is being recorded, and also—again, in these circumstances—that the conversation, if necessary, will be given publicity? I really feel that this is under-
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estimating our intelligence as Parliamentarians.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I agree entirely with the noble Baroness. No one, surely, would object to the Prime Minister giving his own account of this conversation, and if this account is to be given, is it not much better to have a record in addition?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Earl does not wish to misrepresent me, but I did not say that I doubted the truth of what the Prime Minister said. I said he did not tell the whole truth. My point was that there was another element in this situation, and that was the great mistrust which the Rhodesians had of British Governments in general. I never suggested that the Prime Minister had himself—the noble Earl may not agree—said what was incorrect.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I think the noble Marquess has distorted my words. As he will find in Hansard, I did not accuse him of any such thing. I did say that there was this great difficulty. Here one had two men giving their own accounts, and one could not be sure which was right. As so often happens on occasions like this, he said that the accounts differed widely.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, without in any way approving the action of Mr. Smith and his Government, which I regret, are we to understand that in future, when Her Majesty's present Government hold a confidential conversation with members of another Government, they will have to bear in mind that the line may be tapped and the conversation recorded?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, all Governments use their discretion in this matter.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, arising out of the question put by the noble Baroness, and the reply of the noble Earl, may I ask him how he sees the possibility of diplomatic negotiations when confidential exchanges are published by one side within a very few hours of their taking place? Does he not also realise that one day Her Majesty's Government will have to treat with Rhodesia? How can he expect those on the other side of

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the table to have any confidence in Her Majesty's Government?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am rather shocked at the way the noble Lord talked about the suspicions held in Rhodesia about this Government and, for that matter, the Governments of their own colleagues recently. Personally, I would rather trust the word of any British Government of the last ten years than the words of some gentleman we have been criticising in recent days.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, as I was there, perhaps it might assist the House if I said that, during the discussions with the representatives of the Rhodesian Cabinet (and I think your Lordships will find this in the record), when we were trying to agree with them on the publication of the record of the discussions, it was made plain to them that of course if there was a U.D.I. we should regard ourselves free to publish anything we liked.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, arising out of what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has said, is it not the case that those documents certainly contain, in various places, a declaration that such-and-such a discussion would have to be published in the event of a U.D.I.? I would ask the noble Earl, or the noble and learned Lord, whether, in their judgment, reading those documents, any reference to publication could conceivably cover this telephone conversation?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I should say that it was entirely in keeping with the general approach that this telephone conversation should be published. I am sorry to repeat myself, because the noble Lord and I do not seem to understand one another as well as usual this afternoon. I cannot believe that the noble Lord would seriously suggest that the Prime Minister should not give an account of that telephone conversation. May I rub that in? When the negotiations hung in the balance, most people agreed that he was right to conduct the telephone conversation. It was surely right, beyond all question, to give his account of it, and surely right also, if the argument carries me as far as that, to confirm that by means of a document of this sort.
LORD COLERAINE: Would it not have been perfectly possible for the Prime Minister, at the beginning of that telephone conversation, to adopt the same line that he adopted in Rhodesia, as the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, pointed out, to say to Mr. Smith: "Look here, I want to talk to you, but I had better let you know that if we break down I am going to publish this conversation, as I am going to publish the other documents"? Would the noble Earl not agree with me, reading the transcript, that it was quite evident that Mr. Smith could have had no idea that what he was saying was going to be published?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I do not agree with that. I am bound to say frankly to the noble Lord that a good many of us—I do not know how many in this House, but I am certainly one of them—resent the tone of his remarks about the Prime Minister.
LORD GLENDEVON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl a question about the future, because it is important? I know as well as the noble Earl the difficulties in which the Government have been over this crisis—of course I do. There may be a time, sooner or later, when somebody important in Rhodesia is going to want to talk to the Prime Minister by telephone. Are we to understand that he is not going to be certain whether the Prime Minister of the day, whoever he may be, is not going to publish that conversation?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am afraid that I regard that as a somewhat slighting comment. All Ministers who have to take part in these long-distance calls know what is likely to happen.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, as these questions have gone rather wide of the original Question, may I ask this supplementary? Why was it that Mr. Johnston, the British High Commissioner, was given strict instructions, when he conveyed the last oral message from Mr. Wilson to the Rhodesian Government at 7.30 p.m. on November 10, to leave nothing in writing at all, in spite of the fact that he was repeatedly pressed to do so?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, the noble Lord said that the questions had gone very wide and, therefore, he was entitled to go wider. I am afraid that I do not agree with him.

RHODESIA: PURPORTED DISMISSAL OF THE GOVERNOR
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice: namely, Whether they will make a Statement about the purported dismissal of Her Majesty's Governor in Rhodesia by the Smith régime in Salisbury?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, my noble friend the Leader of the House will be answering that Question in a few moments, for reasons which the noble and learned Viscount will understand.
May I say, also, that my noble friend Lord Snow will be making a statement on the Inner London Education Authority.

SOCIAL SCIENCE RESEARCH COUNCIL ORDER 1965
3.38 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY (LORD SNOW): My Lords, I beg to move that the Draft Social Science Research Council Order 1965, laid before the House on October 27 last, be approved. It now appears to fall to me to lull the House. The terms of reference of the Committee on Social Science under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Heyworth, were to review the research at present being done in the field of social studies and to advise whether changes were needed in the arrangements for support and co-ordination. The Committee advised that such changes were needed, and put forward as their chief recommendation the establishment of a Social Science Research Council. The Government's acceptance of this recommendation in principle was announced in both Houses: of Parliament on June 2. On August 5, the House of Commons was informed that Dr. Michael Young had accepted an invitation to become Chairman of a Social Science Research Council, and on November 2 the
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names of the fourteen members were announced; and noble Lords will no doubt have seen them.
It will be recalled that, while subsection (1)(c) of Section 1 of the Science and Technology Act 1965 provides for the establishment of new Research Councils, subsection (4) of that section requires that no recommendation shall be made to Her Majesty to make an Order in Council declaring a body to be a Research Council for the purposes of the Act unless a draft of the Order has first been laid before Parliament and approved by a Resolution of each House. Specific references were made during the debate on the Second Reading of the Science and Technology Bill (Hansard, December 11, 1964, cols. 1980–1981) to the possible application of this section to a Social Science Research Council. On October 29, Her Majesty was pleased to order that the Social Science Research Council be incorporated by Royal Charter. The approval of the House is now sought for this draft Order, which specifies the objects of the Council and declares it to be a Research Council for the purposes of the Science and Technology Act.
There is a rather long history to all this. In 1946 a Committee under the chairmanship of Sir John Clapham considered whether additional provision was needed for research into sociological and economic questions, and decided that at the moment there was not a case for a Social Science Research Council. They argued that the chief need was more provision for routine research. I think it is fair to say that since that time we have lagged markedly behind the United States of America in the field of social studies.
However, that Report led to some effort on the part of the Government and the University Grants Committee to foster growth in this field. Over the period 1947 to 1952, £1·2 million, or slightly more, was allocated to universities specifically for the social sciences. This gave an impetus, particularly to the teaching of the subject, which has had far-reaching effects. Most universities in this country now offer social sciences, and the proportion of undergraduates entering social science faculties has risen steadily from 11 per cent. in 1959–1960 to 14 per cent. in 1964–65. Postgraduate students

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have increased at least as fast as this. Of course it is part of the function of university teaching staff to carry out research and, in addition, some have developed special centres to co-ordinate interdisciplinary research in the social sciences. The Heyworth Committee found that many of these centres were well-established and that the provision for research was more stable and wider in scope than when the Clapham Committee reported.
There have been corresponding developments outside the university field. The number of research institutions outside universities concerned with various social studies has increased since 1945 from 7 to 18. Industry and commerce have played a large part in financing some of these institutions, and are employing more and more social science graduates; and central and local government departments and agencies have been showing much awareness of the significance of the social sciences.
The Heyworth Committee estimated that the total expenditure on research in these subjects for 1964–65 was running at about £6½ million. Judged in the light of these developments, the Hey-worth Committee decided that the social sciences were ready to move to a new level of performance, and that there was a need for resources to support not only applied research but also research which held special promise for future development. For this the appropriate co-ordinating body is clearly a Research Council.
The Committee has recommended that the Council should consist of an independent Chairman appointed by the Secretary of State for Education and Science, and that the majority of the members should be social scientists, but that some members should possess practical experience in industry, and the Central Government should be represented on the Council and on these Committees by assessors. This is perfectly in line with the form of the established Research Councils. The objects of the Council should be to provide support for research in the social sciences, to keep under review the state of research in those sciences, to advise the Government on the needs of social science research, and so on—in other words all the normal func-
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tions of a Research Council except direct research itself. So the Government have concluded that the broad field involved calls for a somewhat larger membership than the Heyworth Committee actually recommended: that is, the Chairman plus fourteen, rather than the Chairman plus ten or twelve.
They accept in general the proposed functions and powers of the Council. These are embodied essentially in Article 2(1) of the Charter, and in the Schedule to this Draft Order, which is drawn up in terms similar to those which appear in the Charters of other Research Councils. More so than in the case of other Research Councils, the Social Science Research Council will be breaking new ground, and its first task will be to decide in detail its own programme of activities and its methods of working. No doubt it will concentrate initially on the support of research now being carried out in the universities and elsewhere, and on providing a focal point for the co-ordination and dissemination of information. The Council will not for the time being set up research units of its own.
One of the Council's problems will be to define its own sphere of operations. The term "social science" covers a number of disciplines and fields. Economics is one of the major ones, sociology is another, social psychology, social anthropology and political science. These will be the main immediate concern of the Council. But the field upon which these studies impinge is wider, and it will be the task of the Council to co-ordinate its work with that of other bodies, including the existing Research Councils. The Council will be assuming some of the functions hitherto carried out by the Human Sciences Committee of the Science Research Council and the Department of Education and Science in regard to post-graduate student awards. The precise demarcation of responsibilities will obviously be a matter for examination by all the bodies concerned when the Social Science Research Council becomes operative.
These arrangements will include the appointment of assessors from Government Departments, as I said before, as well as the representation of the Council on inter-departmental Committees concerned with research in the social sciences

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undertaken or commissioned by Government Departments. Of this there is quite a deal, and this kind of inter-weaving is common practice in the relations of existing Research Councils and Government Departments. The precise arrangements will be for discussion and agreement with the Council in each case.
The Government wish to reiterate their gratitude to Lord Heyworth and his Committee for a penetrating and comprehensive contribution to knowledge in this vital and comparatively new field. I personally should like to say how important I believe both their recommendations and the future work suggested will inevitably be. I commend this Order to the House in the conviction, which I share with the Heyworth Committee, that investment here will in the course of time—and not too long a time—be more than repaid by the improvement in the efficiency of the national economy and also in the quality of our national life. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Social Science Research Council Order 1965, laid before the House on October 27 last, be approved.—(Lord Snow.)
3.49 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, we are most grateful to the noble Lord for giving us this detailed statement explaining this particular Order. He has answered many of the questions which I was going to put to him. We are particularly grateful to him because it was we, on this side of the House, who appointed the Heyworth Committee, and we are glad that its recommendations are to be implemented. I would repeat what we said in this House in June of this year, when we expressed our gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Heyworth, and his colleagues for their work.
I wish to ask the noble Lord whether he could expand a little on the objects of the Council as given in the schedule, which are very brief indeed and do not perhaps give a clear idea of the wide scope of this work. I think he has given us a good description of the work in which the Council will be involved. There were always people who felt that the social sciences were already covered in the other Research Councils and in the universities, and some thought that this was sufficient; but I think a good case has been made out for co-ordination,
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which is, after all, the object of this Council. As the noble Lord said, it is not going to have any new units of its own, which I think is good. I also think it is good that Her Majesty's Government are to be represented on the Council, and perhaps this accounts to some extent for the larger membership of it. All I can say is that we wish Dr. Young and all his colleagues well in their work, and I hope we shall be able to have some sort of debate on it, perhaps at a later date.
There is one point I want to ask the noble Lord. Under the Summary of Principal Conclusions and Recommendations of the Heyworth Report, No. V, it is stated that expenditure of the Council may be of the order of £600,000 during the first year and £1,100,000 during the second, and that it would rise in the fourth year to £2¼ million. It says that not all this is new expenditure. I do not know whether the noble Lord is now able to give more of a breakdown of these fairly considerable sums. If not, I leave it to him to communicate with me. We welcome this Order.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Snow said he was going to lull us with his speech. He did not lull me; he got me hopping mad. I am sorry to be so emotional after his quiet remarks, but I had read the Schedule to this excellent Order and was greatly encouraged. I thought it was first class, setting out things I had been hoping for for years. Then he gets up and says it is not doing anything, not going to have any bearing on direct research, it is going to be a co-ordinating body. If that is it, we have been "had" again. Some of us have been fighting for a Social Science Research Council for twenty years. My noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger and I, since we have been in this House, which is not twenty years, have certainly fought hard for a Social Science Research Council and we think this is a great day; we think this is "it", when we have won at last—at least, we did until my noble friend Lord Snow started talking. I am sure he feels as passionately as I do about social science, because this is one of the ways we can move mankind forward; it is one of the great hopes for mankind.
The noble Lord, Lord Adrian made a wonderful statement about the value of social research as the most important

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kind of scientific development now. The noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, said it was about the most important thing for the future of mankind. I have believed this for years. And social research is frightfully hard to do, because we are researching about our own behaviour, finding out how and why we behave, and nobody likes knowing the truth about himself. It is very difficult stuff, and this is why the official creation of a Social Science Research Council, to stand alongside our great Medical Research Council, is, or ought to be, and I hope still is, an event of historic importance. When your Lordships were discussing the Science and Technology Bill and the Heyworth Report I was chained, gagged and confined down on the Front Bench. I did not like it a bit. Not that I was in any disagreement.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House if this is a marathon between the noble Lord, Lord Snow, and his noble friend behind to see who can occupy most time in what was supposed to be a Statement and question?
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): My Lords, this is the moving of an Order. It has been moved, will now be discussed and eventually my noble friend Lord Snow will reply.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, had it been a question, I certainly should have shut up long ago. It is, in fact, a very important Order, making a great step forward in the history of our little Island. I remember the last time I addressed your Lordships on this subject, six years ago. My old friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth poured cold water on me from a great height. He was a very conservative Socialist in some respects, and certainly social research was not one of the things he really liked. I am pleased and proud that a Labour Government should have created the Social Science Research Council in so short a time and, if I may say so, should have put Dr. Michael Young in charge of it, because I cannot help feeling that if the noble Lord, Lord Snow, thinks it is going to pursue the pedestrian course that he has described in Dr. Michael Young he will have a great surprise. Dr. Young is not that
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sort of person; nor, for that matter, is the noble Lord, Lord James of Rusholme, who is on the Council.
There is a very important part of this Order in the Schedule which is paragraph (b): "to provide and operate services for common use" in social research. The Government already have a service for common use in social research, the Government's Social Survey. I spent a large part of the war helping to create this Survey, and it had a chequered career; it was nearly wound up three times. But it is, in fact, an extremely useful piece of social research machinery, and I do not believe any other country in the world has the benefit of being able to do social research whenever the Government require it. I see the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, nods agreement. It works as a common service for any Department needing social survey investigations, and it is located in the C.O.I.—quite the wrong place; it is for historic reasons it is there. The proper place is under the Social Science Research Council, where it will be available not only for Departmental investigations but also non-Departmental studies which the Council may consider worth while in the public interest; and it will thus bear the same relation to the Social Science Research Council as the National Institute for Medical Research bears to the Medical Research Council. I hope as soon as the Social Science Research Council has settled down Her Majesty's Government will give consideration to putting the Social Survey under its control.
I hope the Social Science Research Council is going to act courageously, that it is not going to funk investigating topical and difficult subjects, and that it is not going to churn out dull reports but is going to be vigorous and energetic and tackle things that matter, because unless it does it will not be any good. I think my right honourable friend the, Minister for Science and Education has chosen well in choosing Dr. Michael Young to be its Chairman; I believe he has chosen the man for the job.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, may I take the opportunity of congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, on his voluntary translation from the Front Bench to the Back Bench?
On Question, Motion agreed to.

INNER LONDON EDUCATION AUTHORITY
3.58 p.m.
LORD SNOW: My Lords, I think this might be a convenient moment for me to make a Statement. In fact, I thought of interrupting myself fifteen minutes ago and setting up some sort of a modest record; but sterner counsels prevailed. This Statement is similar to that which has just been made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Educacation and Science on the Inner London Education Authority. It is as follows:
"The London Government Act transferred to this Authority responsibility for education and the Youth Employment Service in the Inner London area on a provisional basis. The Act imposed upon my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Education and Science, an obligation to carry out a review of the arrangements relating to education and to lay a report before Parliament not later than 31st March, 1970. A corresponding obligation in relation to the Youth Employment Service was imposed on my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour.
"The Government have been examining these arrangements. The Education Service and the Youth Employment Service of the I.L.E.A. are soundly organised and efficiently administered. The Government are convinced that any disruption or fragmentation of these services would be bound to lead to a lowering of standards. It appears essential, in the interests of sound local government, to preserve the long-established unified service of educational administration in the London area, and hence to confirm the position of the I.L.E.A.
"The Government have therefore decided to introduce legislation giving permanent effect to those provisions of the London Government Act 1963 which transfer to the I.L.E.A. the responsibility for Education and the Youth Employment Service in London. The legislation will repeal those provisions of the Act which require my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour to carry out a review of the
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arrangements made by the Act and to report on them to Parliament. The Government wish to make their intention clear now, in advance of legislation, because there is evidence of a growing feeling of insecurity among teachers and other staff employed by the Authority. Any review would take a long time to complete, and would inevitably have an unsettling effect. This uncertainty about the future must be removed, and the Authority itself must be given confidence to embark on long-term plans without the threat of further upheaval."
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am again most grateful to the noble Lord for having made this Statement. I think that the measures that are proposed make good administrative sense; but I hope that, none the less, the wishes and interests of those in the boroughs will always be taken into account and that we shall keep some form of consultation with the parents. I think that is good. All in all, I think it makes sense. I hope the Minister is aware that many people, who agree that the balance of advantages lies with the need for a local education authority within the London area, would none the less not wish to rule out the possibility of the London boroughs participating directly in the Inner London Education Service—for example, over the appointment of school managers. We welcome this Statement. The only other question I should like to ask is whether it is proposed to introduce relevant legislation in another place or in this House during this Session?
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, we on the Liberal Benches welcome this Statement. I do not know whether the noble Lord opposite is aware, as I rather think is the case, that my honourable friends in another place moved Amendments along these lines last year, and that the Amendments were resisted both by the Conservative Party and by the Labour Party. Nevertheless, we welcome the introduction now of the proposal.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the noble Lord who has just spoken appears to be at least a year wrong in his observations?

CENSUS OF DISTRIBUTION (1967) (RESTRICTION ON DISCLOSURE) ORDER 1965
4.3 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD RHODES): My Lords, I beg to move that the draft of the Census of Distribution (1967) (Restriction on Disclosure) Order 1965, a copy of which was laid before this House on July 22, be approved. This Order relates to the census of distribution which is to be taken by the Board of Trade in 1967 in respect of trade done in 1966. It is concerned with one limited aspect of that census—the non-disclosure of information about particular undertakings. Under the Statistics of Trade Act disclosure of particulars about individual undertakings is generally prohibited, but there are exceptions. The President of the Board of Trade may direct information to be passed to other Government Departments for the purpose of exercising their functions and information may also be disclosed for the purpose of proceedings for offences under the Statistics of Trade Act.
The Act empowers the Board of Trade to impose further restrictions on the disclosure of information about particular undertakings, and the present Order is submitted as a proposed exercise of those powers. In effect, it prohibits the disclosure of information obtained from individual undertakings to other Government Departments except with the written permission of the firm concerned. It does this by prohibiting all disclosure of information about particular undertakings except for the immediate purpose of census returns and for the purpose of prosecuting offences under the Act; for example, the furnishing of false returns. In this way, everyone can be sure that the information he gives will be treated in the strictest confidence. The Order is on the same lines as the Orders made in connection with all three previous censuses. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Census of Distribution (1967) (Restriction on Disclosure) Order 1965, laid before the House on July 22 last, be approved.—(Lord Rhodes.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for
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the statement he has made, and to say that we on this side welcome it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONTROL OF OFFICE DEVELOPMENT (DESIGNATION OF AREAS) ORDER 1965
4.7 p.m.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that appears in my name on the Order Paper, to approve this Order. The Order, which came into operation on August 14, introduced the control of office development in the Birmingham conurbation with effect from that date. The Order is not retrospective. Office developments for which planning applications had been made, or for which planning permissions had been granted, before August 14 do not require an office development permit, though some of these may be caught by the new building control. The effect of the Order is that applications for planning permission made on or after August 14 for office developments in excess of the exemption limit of 3,000 feet have to be accompanied by an office development permit to be effective.
I need hardly remind the House that the introduction of the office control in the Birmingham conurbation was one of the measures announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place last July. These measures were designed to reduce the general pressure of demand on the economy and to restrain less essential work in both the public and private sectors. The aim of these measures was to ensure that we should get the balance of payments right next year. In the private sector the introduction of building control was announced, and as soon as the Control of Office and Industrial Development Bill became law the industrial development certificate control was tightened in the Midlands and other congested areas. These new controls will help to achieve in the long term a better distribution of employment between the areas which are underemployed and those which are over-congested.
At the time of the Chancellor's announcement of these new measures, the Bill had not received the Royal Assent. This was received on August 5,

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the last Sitting Day before the Summer Recess. The Order was accordingly made as soon as possible after that date, and it came into operation on August 14, the day after it was laid before Parliament. During the passage of the Bill we were glad to accept the Opposition's proposal that an order designating a new area for purposes of the office control should be subject to approval by Affirmative Resolution of both Houses, but we made it clear that an Order of this kind must come into immediate operation, in order to prevent any forestalling of the control in any interval between its announcement and its operation.
The House will recall that our first objective in introducing the new control of office development was to call a halt to the growth of office employment and to relieve congestion in and around London. But when the new control was first announced we made it clear that we should take powers to control office development in other areas if this became necessary. The situation in London had been allowed to get out of hand and we certainly did not want this to happen again in the case of other conurbations with similar problems of congestion which might have to be tackled in the interest of a better regional balance of employment and a better use of labour and other resources. This is the situation in the Birmingham conurbation. All the problems with which we are presented in and around London are now apparent, though perhaps in a less acute form.
The conurbation is the focus of the West Midlands region; its population of 2·4 million represents half the population of the whole region and its continued growth is a threat to the region's economic balance. For purposes of controlling office employment we cannot distinguish between the City of Birmingham area and the towns around it. Indeed, the whole conurbation must be regarded as a source of new jobs for places elsewhere which need new employment, including the overspill towns. The growth in service occupations in the West Midlands region as a whole has been faster than in any other region, and this has been particularly concentrated in the conurbation. Over the past ten years employment in the conurbation has increased at a rate equivalent to an additional 10,000 jobs every year. There is a serious shortage of
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all kinds of labour, including office workers, and there are not enough qualified and trainee office workers to fill the vacancies.
Against this background we must look with some concern at the growth in office space in recent years. Between 1951 and 1963 office space increased by nearly 3 million sq. ft., after allowing for demolitions of about 1 million sq. ft. The total amount of office space now in the pipeline is 3·1 million sq. ft. and represents a potential additional labour demand of more than 20,000 people, more than two and a half times the present number of unemployed and this new office space is concentrated in Birmingham and Solihull.
This situation has created serious transport and housing problems. Transport in the conurbation in general, and particularly in the City of Birmingham, is severely strained. At least another 340,000 houses will be needed by 1981 to catch up with the backlog. Despite redevelopment in the City and on its fringes, these new houses will overflow into the overspill towns. In this situation we cannot afford to allow the growth of office employment to go uncontrolled in Birmingham itself and in the rest of the conurbation. Industrial development is, of course, already controlled, and industry must make its contribution to the provision of jobs in the overspill towns and places needing employment elsewhere. The stage has been reached when office employment should also contribute its share. We had all these problems in mind in deciding to lose no time in introducing the office control throughout the conurbation.
In the initial stages the Board of Trade will subject all applications for permits to a tough scrutiny. We shall apply the same criteria as we are applying to applications for permits in the London metropolitan region. These are as follows.
"Applicants will have to satisfy the Board that the proposed activity cannot be carried on elsewhere, that there is no reasonable alternative accommodation, and also, unless the project is so small as not to add materially to congestion or to the demand for labour, that the activity is in the public interest."
In applying these criteria we shall naturally have regard to the need to maintain the prosperity and export

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record of Birmingham and its surrounding area, the need to bring existing offices up to modern standards and the need to ensure that industry has the offices it requires to be efficient. But in assessing all these factors we shall be particularly concerned, in operating this control, with the distribution of employment and the need to bring about a better balance not only within the West Midlands region itself, but also between this and other regions. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Control of Office Development (Designation of Areas) Order 1965, be approved.—(Lord Rhodes.)

RHODESIA: PURPORTED DISMISSAL OF THE GOVERNOR
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, may I now ask for an Answer to the Private Notice Question which I asked some time ago?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will answer it now. I apologise for the delay in making it. It is in reply to a Private Notice Question elsewhere by Mr. Jeremy Thorpe, which runs—
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Earl, I have put a Private Notice Question to the noble Earl and I should like it answered. I am not speaking on behalf of any member of the Liberal Party—I would not claim to do that. That is why I was hoping that at some stage the noble Earl would explain why it was necessary to wait so long, not for a repetition of a Statement made in another place but to answer a Private Notice Question in this House. It may be the case, and I hope it is, that the Government speak with the same voice in both Houses, and that I may get the same Answer as has been given by the Prime Minister in another place. I suggest—and perhaps we need not pursue it now—that it is a matter for consultation between the usual channels, to see whether it is necessary in future to have such a long delay in answering in this House a Private Notice Question which may elicit from Her Majesty's Government an Answer in precisely the same
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form as one which it is proposed to be made in another place.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I stand rebuked, and I am sure that the rather laborious sarcasm of the noble Viscount—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: As I say, my Lords, I stand rebuked by the rather laborious sarcasm of the noble Viscount. I cannot do more than stand rebuked. As a matter of fact, I was trying to be helpful to the House by explaining what the Question was, because I thought that otherwise the House might not quite understand what the Statement was about. But the noble Viscount caught me out in a verbal infelicity, and I offer him, and the House, my apologies. I was only trying to tell the House what the Statement was about. With the leave of the House, I am making a Statement in the same terms as those being used by the Prime Minister elsewhere. I hope that that fits in with the wishes of the noble Viscount.
The Prime Minister is making this Statement elsewhere, in reply to a Question by Mr. Jeremy Thorpe which runs as follows:
"To ask the Prime Minister whether he will make a Statement about the purported dismissal of Her Majesty's Governor in Rhodesia by the Smith régime in Salisbury."
The Statement of the Prime Minister, which I hope I may be allowed to reproduce in his own words, runs as follows:
"The House will have seen with regret and noted with contempt the action the illegal régime have taken in purporting to replace the Governor by Mr. Dupont. I repeat that the Governor holds his office during Her Majesty's pleasure and can be removed only on Her Majesty's instructions. As I warned earlier in the week, this is an act of treason.
"Honourable Members will have noticed that in carrying through this illegal procedure the persons concerned appear to have been unable to

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secure the services of the Chief Justice or any other judge and had to use a justice of the peace. The House, too, will have noticed the contemptible action of the illegal authorities in the form of the pressure put on the Governor, Lady Gibbs, and their loyal staff.
"I would conclude only with this. Honourable Members who know Sir Humphrey Gibbs and who have had an opportunity of forming some impression of Mr. Dupont will, in making the inevitable contrast, be able to measure the extent to which Rhodesia has been degraded and her people abused by the events of the past seven days."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement of the Prime Minister.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for answering the Question in the same terms as the Prime Minister has answered in another place, and, in fact, repeating the Prime Minister's Answer. I am sorry that the noble Earl thought I was being sarcastic or, indeed, laboriously sarcastic. That was not my intention. My intention was to ask him to consider through the usual channels this delay, which is getting longer and longer. We were not, in fact, asking for a Statement be repeated here, but for an Answer to a Private Notice Question. Surely, it is not necessary, when an Answer to a Question has been carefully prepared, as this has, that we should have to wait in this House until twenty minutes past four to receive the Answer. That is all I am putting to the noble Earl. I do not press him to answer to-day, but I think that it is a matter for consideration between the usual channels. I am not being sarcastic about that; I am being entirely serious.
May I turn to the Answer which the noble Earl has given? I do not propose to comment on the language used by the Prime Minister, but I am glad that he has drawn attention to this farce, this façade of appointment of a so-called Governor in succession to His Excellency the Governor of Rhodesia; and to the fact that no part in that farce was played by a member of the Bench of Rhodesia, and that, apparently, it was necessary to secure the services of some justice
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of the peace for some form of what would appear to be illegal oath-taking.
Might I ask the noble Earl this question? Is it the case, as the Daily Telegraph to-day reports, that as Mr. Smith was assuring a Press conference yesterday that he would not do anything to inconvenience or embarrass the Governor the Governor's cars were, in fact, being driven away, and his official staff and servants were being ordered to leave Government House, in addition to the Governor's telephone having been cut off, upon the instructions of Mr. Smith? Can the noble Earl confirm that? Because if it is true it would seem difficult to reconcile that with the statement that Mr. Smith is reported to have made in relation to his attitude towards His Excellency the Governor.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I would begin by apologising to the noble and learned Viscount. He has known me long enough to know that my reference to laborious sarcasm was not intended really seriously. But I would also apologise to the House for the delay. I think, as a matter of fact, that there was some slight slip-up. There is usually a very good machinery for informing us. As soon as the notice came through, I was here ready to make the Statement, but we did not receive the message. There is no secret about that. It has happened in the past, may I say, when the noble and learned Viscount sat on this side and we sat opposite. But, at any rate, I think that an apology is owing to the House and I would tender it, certainly, for the lateness of the Statement.
I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for what he has just said. I do not have an official confirmation of the report in the Daily Telegraph, but I would personally suppose it to be correct. I have always found the Daily Telegraph remarkably accurate in matters of this kind, and I have seen the same kind of thing in other papers.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he will find whatever means are available to him to convey to the Governor and his household the warm admiration of Members of this House at their staunchness and loyalty in what is perhaps the most difficult situation into which a British Governor has been placed.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD ALPORT: Will the noble Earl also say that we look forward with expectation to the time when, as a result of the Governor's leadership and loyalty, Rhodesia will be able to put an end to the present régime and return hopefully and successfully to allegiance to the Crown?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I will certainly make sure that on behalf of the Government and, I hope, the House I convey the messages suggested by the noble Lord. May I say, with respect, that I do not think there is any noble Lord in this House who is more worthy to initiate those messages than the noble Lord, Lord Alport.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, would the noble Earl tell us whether the Government have any official information that the cutting-off of the Governor's telephone in Rhodesia was associated with messages which were supposed to be passing by telephone between Her Majesty's Government and the Governor? Could he also tell us whether Mr. Smith's associates were tapping those messages?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am afraid that I have no information on the matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Citrine.
LORD WADE: My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that it is most important that we should get all possible support to the Governor and to other representatives of the Queen? At the same time—and I hope this is not going too wide—would he agree that, while imposing sanctions, it is most important that we should give a clear assurance of security for the future to all those who remain loyal to the Crown?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I certainly agree with the first point made by the noble Lord. I think the second point was covered in a way of which he would approve by the Prime Minister in his broadcast.

CONTROL OF OFFICE DEVELOPMENT (DESIGNATION OF AREAS) ORDER 1965
4.27 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rhodes, for having dealt so fully with the Order before us. Your Lordships will be aware that your Special Orders Committee expressed the view that this Order could not be passed by the House without special attention, and we are grateful to the noble Lord for having given so much special attention to it in the statement that he has made to us.
May I ask the noble Lord one or two questions, and perhaps say this first of all? In a situation where, as I understand from the statement in another place, the offices now being built will provide nearly a quarter more office places than at present exist in the area, and when at the same time there is a manpower shortage, it would be difficult to oppose an order extending the Act to this area. Indeed, I would have thought that it was not even necessary to include this in the statement that was made on July 27, because in the circumstances which the noble Lord has stated to the House, the extension of this area under the Act could have stood on its own. The noble Lord has said that there will, of course, be no retrospection in this regard, and I should like to ask him this question. Clearly, there will be a movement from sub-standard offices elsewhere into the office premises now being built, so that the offices in the sights so to speak, are not likely to be clear gain if as I expect those sub-standard offices will not be reoccupied. May I ask the noble Lord whether or not where sub-standard offices are evacuated so as to improve office accommodation, they will be permitted to be re-occupied?
Secondly, may I take it that the Order can be altered at any time? If it should be found that the area in which the control is required is less than the rather wide area at present affected, which I think amounts to about 240 square miles, will an amending Order be laid restricting the area to a smaller one? Thirdly, on the question of areas, I understand that the Boundary Commission's

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reorganisation proposals have been laid before the House, and if passed will come into effect on April 1. Will that mean any change in the Order, and if it does—if a fresh Order will have to be laid—will there be a change in the total area which is covered by the Order, or will the area be substantially the same? I should be grateful if the noble Lord would answer those questions.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, with regard to retrospection, the Order does not apply retrospectively to office development in excess of the exemption limit for which planning application was made, or for which permission was given, before the 14th. I think that is quite clear and definite. With regard to the noble Lord's question about the Boundary Commission and its findings, may I say that there is very little difference in area expected between this part of the West Midlands Region as a whole, the one we are talking about, and the Birmingham conurbation, but it will be necessary, in the event of any change at all being made, to make another Order.
With regard to sub-standard offices, I do not think it is possible for us to prevent re-occupation of old offices after the occupants have moved into new offices. I cannot give the noble Lord a better answer on that, I am afraid, but we shall try to see that the old offices are not kept as offices and that the bad conditions are not perpetuated. To the noble Lord's question, "Can an Order be made at any time? "the answer is: yes, it can—and I hope he will accept that. We are grateful to the noble Lord for having commended this Order, for which there is a very urgent need.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord could say whether authorities contemplating schemes of comprehensive redevelopment will be able to discover, by application to the local office of the Board of Trade, whether or not an office content can be inserted in a scheme of comprehensive redevelopment? I had some assurances on this point when I raised it in regard to the first district Order, and I believe I was assured that it would be possible for authorities contemplating these schemes to have some guidance in this matter. I can only say that, so far as my experience goes, it has as yet been
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extremely difficult to get any guidance from the Board of Trade.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, in answer to the noble Viscount I would say that his question is not really applicable to this particular Order, but I remember his great interest in this matter when we were discussing the Bill, before it became an Act, in the House, and if there is any fresh information about it I will see that he gets a letter to let him know.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, may I make one small point? I do not want to accept thanks to which I am not really entitled. I was careful to say that we would not oppose this Order, but I did not exactly commend it. I said that, in the context of the Act (about which, as noble Lords opposite know, we had reservations), we would not oppose this Order. May I make one further point clear? I take it that, as this Order can be altered at any time, it will not necessarily follow that this Order will run for the whole period of the Act. Is that so?
LORD RHODES: That is so, yes.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CORPORATION OF THE TRINITY HOUSE OF LEITH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation (Scotland) Act 1936) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee.

DISARMAMENT
4.35 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON LORD HENDERSON rose to call attention to the problems concerning Disarmament; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise, somewhat belatedly, to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. I believe that it will meet with general approval. There cannot, I think, be anyone in this House who is not convinced of the importance of disarmament. The events of this century have shown what the will to war, coupled with the means,

719
can bring about; and, as the weapons have become more powerful and the consequences of using them more awful, so, I think your Lordships will all agree, the need to restrict them and to restrain those who would use them has become more urgent.
I say this to remind us all that disarmament is not fundamentally a process of negotiations and bargaining, for there is always a danger that in conducting them one may lose sight of the end to which they are directed, and of its importance. Disarmament is the search for peace, for a world where war can never again take place; and a first step to this end must be to halt, and then to reverse, the dangerous and costly arms race. It is reasonable, I think, to accept the calculation that at least 10 per cent. of the world's annual output of wealth is spent on defence. Can any of us doubt that the world would be transformed if that 10 per cent., or the bulk of it, were available to be used for the more constructive purposes?
I recall a statement in the Labour Party's 1964 Manifesto. It said that the Labour Party had
"put forward constructive proposals to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, to establish nuclear free zones in Africa, Latin America and Central Europe and to achieve controlled reductions in manpower and arms".
However, before I come to these three topics, I should like to raise the question of general and complete disarmament. As we know, all nations are committed to it. For more than three years the Eighteen-Nations Disarmament Committee at Geneva has had before it the three-stage draft plans for general disarmament put forward both by the United States and by Soviet Russia. Efforts to build up agreement have not produced significant results so far, and I think I am right in saying that very little time was devoted to consideration of general disarmament at the last session of the Committee between July and September of this year.
There seems to be a growing feeling that progress in this direction is bound to be slow. From what I can gather, the opinion at Geneva has hardened that an early or significant break-through is not to be expected.
This is a cause of widespread disappointment. I realise, however, that,
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with present world tensions and disorders, discussions of the subject must at times seem unreal. But I should like reassurance that in the pursuit of partial, more concrete, measures, the goal of general and complete disarmament has not been and will not be lost sight of. I hope that the Government and the Minister for Disarmament, who is in charge of this debate, intend to persevere in this direction.
In this connection, I should like to ask: What is the Government's attitude towards the convening of a World Disarmament Conference? One of the problems of disarmament negotiations at Geneva has been that France would not, and China could not, be represented. Clearly, the absence of two of the five nuclear Powers from the discussions at Geneva makes the chance of agreement there more remote. In the case of China, the same objection can be raised against the disarmament debates at the United Nations, although the presence of such countries as Albania means that China's voice is not entirely unheard. But this can never be a satisfactory way of seeking agreement. I should like to ask the Minister: Do Her Majesty's Government still support the idea of a World Disarmament Conference? And is it likely that, as a result of discussions which I think are taking place at the United Nations to-day, China, which was refused admission to the United Nations yesterday, will be invited?
My Lords, the issue which has been the principal talking point at Geneva in the First Committee at the United Nations and in the Press is that of a non-proliferation treaty. The importance of such a treaty has been stressed time and again. The Prime Minister has called it "the most urgent problem facing us in the field of disarmament." The greater the number of nations which have control over nuclear weapons, the greater the chance that they will be used. It is not fanciful to suggest that if the precarious peace since 1945 has been the result of the possession by both sides of vast nuclear capabilities, it has also been the result of the responsibility which the principal controllers of the stockpiles have exercised. But there are countries in the world whose sense of responsibility might not be adequate if put to the test. Could any of us sleep more soundly if Egypt and Israel,

721
India and Pakistan, or Indonesia and Malaysia, were equipped with nuclear weapons?
Secondly, the number of countries which will soon have the ability to produce nuclear weapons is increasing. Previously, the increase was from three nuclear Powers to four, and then from four to five; but the next increase may be not from five to six but from five to ten. I believe it is true—indeed, I am sure—that pressures in some of the non-nuclear States to acquire nuclear weapons are increasing, and that if a single State were to give way to these pressures it would then he too late to prevent gradual world-wide dissemination. That makes the signing of a non-proliferation treaty all the more urgent.
Here I must confess that I am puzzled by a remark made by the Prime Minister in another place on July 27 last when he said:
"… the Government have taken the initiative at Geneva—or will he doing so—in tabling proposals to stop the spread of nuclear weapons."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Commons), Vol. 717 (No. 162), col. 224; 27/7/65.]
This meant, I thought, that a British draft treaty would be put forward; but no such draft has ever been produced. Nor, so far as I can discover, did the United Kingdom co-sponsor the American draft treaty. The Russian opposition to the American draft treaty is well known: that it would leave the way open for the Federal Republic of Germany to gain control of nuclear weapons. They have said this many times and in many places, and Mr. Gromyko said it again in his covering memorandum to the Soviet Union's own draft treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. Another typical example was Mr. Federenko's speech in the First Committee of the Twentieth General Assembly on October 18. He said:
"No agreement has been reached on this problem…because the representatives of some leading powers in NATO are seeking, under the guise of an international agreement on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, to make their dissemination legal in fact."
Here, my Lords, two questions suggest themselves. The first is: Why was the United Kingdom able neither to submit the text of a draft treaty nor to co-sponsor the American version? and the second: What can be done to resolve genuine
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Russian doubts? It is also relevant to ask whether the Minister is convinced that the Russian doubts are genuine—that they are genuinely afraid that the Federal German Republic will gain independent control of nuclear weapons—or whether they are merely trying to embarrass the Western Allies.
I myself believe that Soviet Russia and her allies are genuinely concerned lest the Federal German Republic is enabled to acquire national control of nuclear power, if not now, later on. I think it would be a mistake to regard their attitude as purely one of political calculation. The fact is that Western efforts over two years have failed to persuade the Russians that the M.L.F. will not lead to dissemination. And there has been no sign of getting them to modify their attitude of opposition which seems also to apply equally to the A.N.F.
The West cannot leave the issue at stalemate. It is necessary to remove the present obstacles to agreement. It was interesting, therefore, to read the suggestion of the Foreign Secretary, when he was in Washington, that before NATO committed itself too resolutely to a nuclear policy, it should find out more clearly the Soviet Union's views on non-proliferation. The Foreign Secretary was reported as saying—and this was in The Times of October 10—that:
"Britain was still preferring the creation of an A.N.F., but in view of Soviet objections, it would be reasonable for the NATO Allies to see whether they could get a non-proliferation agreement without sacrificing policies considered absolutely essential to the health of the alliance."
It has been suggested that the remarks of the Foreign Secretary in the United States of America were moving towards concessions to the Russians; that the West must choose between M.L.F.—A.N.F.—Special Committee-type development in NATO and a non-proliferation treaty, but that they could not reasonably expect both. It would be unprofitable for me to speculate on the significance of these utterances. The Foreign Secretary is meeting the Federal German Foreign Minister to-morrow, and next month he goes to Moscow. No doubt the Minister for Disarmament will be taking part in both sets of talks, for it is, I think, a safe bet that the question of getting agreement on a non-proliferation treaty will be high on the

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agenda in both cases. All I would say is that I hope that their discussions will help to remove the present obstacles and bring nearer the adoption of an agreed treaty.
I am also concerned that the concentration of discussion on European security arrangements has diverted attention from the fact that the most important results of a non-proliferation treaty will be in areas outside Europe. Clearly there will be much greater danger if the Middle and Far Eastern countries acquire nuclear weapons. It is, of course, the non-nuclear countries which, in one sense, have the most to lose by signing such a treaty. They will be giving up something substantial, they will be making sacrifices, whereas the nuclear Powers will be renouncing something they had no intention of doing anyway. For this reason I hope that attention will be paid to their demand that the nuclear Powers should begin to reduce their weapon stockpiles; that a non-proliferation treaty should not be a means of establishing an "exclusive" nuclear club. It was, I believe, a useful move that Italy should have suggested a short-term moratorium by the non-nuclear Powers on the acquiring of nuclear weapons, to give the nuclear States time to make progress in their field.
Finally, on the subject of non-proliferation I should like the Minister to clarify the Resolution passed by the First Committee, calling on the 18-Nation Disarmament Committee to negotiate a treaty
"… devoid of any loopholes which might permit nuclear or non-nuclear Powers to proliferate, directly or indirectly, nuclear weapons, in any form."
Both the United States and the Soviet Union voted for this Resolution, but clearly they understood the words, "any loophole" very differently. Does this mean that the next session of the 18-Nation Disarmament Committee which the Resolution urges will see the same arguments brought out time and again, and all over again? Or is it likely that a closer identity of view will be established in the meantime before the next meeting of the Committee?
My Lords, there is also the question of the Test Ban Treaty. When the Moscow Treaty was signed in 1963, we all thought
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that the extension of it to cover underground tests would not be long delayed. On June 15 of this year the Disarmament Commission especially recommended that the 18-Nation Disarmament Committee should consider, as a matter of priority, the question of extending the scope of the partial Test Ban Treaty to cover underground tests. But such development seems as far away as ever. The problem, of course, is still that of inspection. Both the United States and the United Kingdom have submitted memoranda to the 18-Nation Disarmament Committee outlining recent progress in the West on the detection and localising of underground events by means of new seismographic techniques. I would ask, to what extent do these techniques make it possible to identify a larger proportion of such events as earthquakes and so reduce the number of "unidentified" events which may or may not be nuclear tests?
Is there still no other method than on-site inspections for positively identifying such tests? I have noted the helpful suggestions made by non-aligned members of the Committee. First, that tests above a certain seismic magnitude—4·75 was the figure quoted by the Egyptian delegate—could be outlawed without the need to insist on the right of inspection, because seismological detection techniques have now improved to the point where it can be determined whether or no an explosion above the determined figure is an earthquake or a nuclear test. Second, the Swedish representative raised the possibility of forming a nuclear detection club. Its purpose would be to develop international co-operation for the detection of nuclear explosions. Could this not also be helpful in perhaps reducing the level of seismic magnitude which would need inspection, or reducing the number of inspections considered necessary to ensure that no party to the Treaty was acting in bad faith?
Much as we must all deplore the Russian attitude in refusing to allow inspections to take place, or joint scientific talks to convince the West of their assertion that inspection is unnecessary, it must not prevent us from persisting in the search for ways to satisfy both parties: for the Russians, no inspections; for the West, no insecurity. The Prime Minister has said in another place that the Government are examining the possibility of collective

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assurances to non-nuclear States against nuclear threats and blackmail in order to provide an alternative to the acquisition of nuclear weapons. The American Ambassador to the United Nations, Mr. Goldberg, has also mentioned that the United States is prepared to offer such guarantees.
The emergence of China as a nuclear Power has, of course, made this an immensely more important problem for our friends in Asia. It would also resolve some of the doubts the non-nuclear States might feel about signing a non-proliferation treaty. I realise that there may be difficulties. It is not easy for a non-nuclear State to accept such an assurance from either the Western or the Eastern Powers without appearing to align itself in one or other camp. Nevertheless, it is a matter to be looked into, and I hope that the Minister will say what developments have taken place in this field.
Finally, I would also ask the Minister whether he can tell us what steps are envisaged in the "freeze" and reduction of nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles by the nuclear Powers. This is, in some ways, the most important step, since it would represent a step towards disarmament rather than a prevention of further armament. Once again the interests of the non-nuclear States are greatly concerned, and I am sure that they will keep a close watch to see what the nuclear Powers are prepared to do. I realise that there are other important matters to which I have not referred. The items I have mentioned are among what might be termed "collateral" measures, agreement on which would contribute greatly to building up international confidence. I believe that, in the present world conditions, work in a limited and specified field will enable greater concentration of effort with a better chance of getting results.
I should like to repeat what I said at the beginning of my speech, that disarmament is so necessary and its fruits so beneficial that I hope that Her Majesty's Government will continue to work for it as urgently as ever, and that the Minister for Disarmament will seize every opportunity for practical initiatives. I beg to move for Papers.
5.0 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, it is always a pleasure to hear the noble Lord, Lord Henderson. We all miss his amiable presence from the Front Bench on his side of the House, and we are very much delighted to hear him again, speaking with his usual modesty, patience and deep sincerity on a subject which is so close to his heart. This subject is indeed of tremendous moment to the welfare and perhaps to the survival of mankind, but I think that our debate this afternoon will be a short one, because we have discussed the matter exhaustively on several occasions during the last twelve months, and perhaps the main object of the noble Lord in putting down this Motion was to enable the Minister of Disarmament, the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, to tell us something about what has been happening at Geneva during the last three months.
The last time the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, spoke in your Lordships' House, he had to leave in the middle of the debate for a long train journey to Geneva. He took with him the good wishes of all your Lordships, not only for the comfort and safety of his journey, but also for his success when he arrived in Geneva. Of course, to wish success to a man going to a disarmament conference at Geneva is rather like wishing success to a man going to fight a battle with a hydra, which grows three new heads whenever you cut off one. However persistent and however valiant you are, success is unlikely to be either speedy or sensational, and I do not think that any of us, least of all the noble Lord, expected that it would be.
I think we all understand the chief obstacles to disarmament, the reasons why this apparently fatuous round of abortive conferences has been going on for the last twenty years or more without any real result, except the Test Ban Treaty. And I think it is necessary to the success of our work that we should understand the obstacles. In my judgment, the main obstacle is and has been (I hope to an even greater extent than it is now), Communist power politics, the belief prevailing among the great Communist Powers of the world that they can dominate the world by a display, if not by an exercise, of force, counting on the certainty that the free nations will not

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start a war and that the social institutions of the free nations will collapse and the Communists will achieve domination, if they keep on pushing everywhere in the world, backed up by a growing strength of nuclear force and conventional force at the same time.
The last five speechs of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, have lately been published as a White Paper. I have read them with great pleasure and with great agreement, but there is one passage with which I do not agree. That is the reason why I think I ought to quote it. In his third speech, on August 19, speaking of what he called The Clausewitzian view of military power, which he rightly said ought to have no place in the age of nuclear missiles, the noble Lord went on to say:
"As I have already acknowledged in New York, the idea that nuclear weapons are status symbols or tickets of admission for some powerful and exclusive cabal is largely the fault of the existing nuclear Powers, my country among them."
I do not agree with that. I think that it is incorrect historically. If the United States, for example, had regarded the hydrogen bomb as a status symbol or ticket of admission to some exclusive cabal, they would have started manufacturing, hydrogen bombs many years earlier. At the end of the war they were the only country in the world which had the atomic bomb, and they did their utmost to get an agreement to enable them to get rid of it, but, owing entirely to Russian opposition, they could not do so. Under President Truman's Administration, they deliberately refrained from preparations to produce the far more destructive hydrogen bomb until they received unquestionable information that Russia was not only manufacturing atomic bombs (which had been known for a long time) but had gone so far in their preparations to make the hydrogen bomb, too, that it seemed probable that the Russians might have it in usable quantities before America, if nothing was done. It was only then that President Truman, at the beginning of 1950, took the decision that America must prepare to make a hydrogen bomb, too. The only reason why he did that was because we had learned from bitter experience that the only way in which we could
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ever end the cold war and bring about disarmament was to convince the Russians that aggression and power politics would not pay and would not succeed.
Conviction has taken a very long time. I think it would be fair to say that until 1962 every singe disarmament conference was for the Russians a Russian propaganda exercise, and nothing more. I think that after the Cuban affair, in the autumn of 1962, the Russians at last began to change their outlook. It was soon after that that Mr. Khrushchev, who was then Prime Minister of Russia, instead of telling us how likely it was that those who disagreed with him would all be blown to smithereens, began saying that war was not necessarily inevitable and that it might even be wrong. A year later, we had at least one concrete agreement, in the shape of the Test Ban Treaty, which was signed in Moscow in August, 1963. The Russian language and attitude and expressions of policy on the subject of disarmament have been not quite so uncompromising and have shown a greater desire for peaceful co-existence and agreement than they did before.
The late Government put forward, on many occasions, practical proposals for disarmament, and I think the present Government agree with the principles which have always governed disarmament proposals—first, disarmament must be carried out in balanced stages; secondly, any agreement must contain provision for verification, for inspection to see that the people who signed it were not cheating and, thirdly, disarmament must eventually be followed by the formation of an international police force.
I think that the necessity of all these conditions is fairly obvious. We must have a balanced reduction of armaments by stages, so that nobody will be left with an overwhelming superiority at any one moment. We must have verification. I think that the need for that, if there was any need to prove it, was shown by the Cuba incident. Only a month or two before the crisis, the Russian Foreign Secretary had categorically assured the American Government that there were no Russian nuclear installations of any kind in Cuba. I do not think you will ever get confidence in the reality of disarmament unless all the great Powers

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are willing to agree to adequate inspection and verification. As for the International Force, that is a more distant objective. But we must always have it in mind, because clearly the ultimate success of disarmament cannot endure unless there is some police force, and the policing of the world cannot be left to any one country.
While all of us in the West were trying to get agreement on these lines, and as the objective still receded as fast as we could pursue it, other countries besides Russia, America and Britain began to produce and develop nuclear weapons—first, France, and then China. Nearly two years ago, the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, who was then Foreign Secretary, put forward at the Geneva Disarmament Conference which was then in session proposals for a non-dissemination treaty. Her Majesty's present Ministers are taking the same course, and, indeed, it has been the principal subject of discussion at Geneva for the last three months, ever since the Geneva Conference was reconvened rather unexpectedly by the sudden and welcome decision of the Russians that it should start again after having been in recess, the Russians refusing to come for a very long time.
I will not stand more than a minute or two between your Lordships and Lord Chalfont's account of what has been happening about our hopes for a non-dissemination agreement at Geneva. There must clearly be an agreement between those countries who possess nuclear weapons not to give them to anybody else, and an agreement among all countries who are willing to join the agreement, and who have not got nuclear weapons, that they will not seek them. But what does the noble Lord think our attitude is likely to be (this is a general question, but it must be thought of now) towards any countries who will not come into the agreement? What are you going to do, for instance, if China will not agree either to disarm or to undertake not to give nuclear weapons to her satellites or to any other country who might be her ally? Are you to confine yourself to protestations?—in which case it is not likely that our own dissemination agreement would last very long. Or are you
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to bring persuasion or pressure, or even some kind of coercion eventually, on other countries who will not come in?—because you can never get these things on a permanent basis until there is some system of enforcing international law.
That, as I say, is a general question. The particular difficulty which seems to have been encountered at Geneva about non-dissemination is the obstinate Russian belief, or at least professed belief, that either the Multilateral Force or the proposed Atlantic Nuclear Force are a means of disseminating nuclear weapons to people who have not got them, and particularly to the Germans—although, as I understand them, both these proposals would actually restrict the possibility of nuclear war by, as the phrase is, putting more fingers on the safety-catch and not on the trigger. This, I think, has been clearly impressed on the Conference by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, but the Russians have refused to appreciate or, so far as one can see, even to listen to his argument.
I should like, since I have quoted one passage from one of the noble Lord's speeches without agreeing with it, to quote what he said about this, on which I wholeheartedly agree with him. In his speech in September he said:
"We want, sincerely and deeply, to prevent the spread of all nuclear weapons not only in Europe but anywhere in the world, and we are prepared to discuss the form and content of an agreement…that will satisfy the Soviet Union of our good faith. But I should be failing in my duty to this Conference if I did not make it clear that, so far as my Government is concerned, the security of NATO and its members is not up for bargaining, here or anywhere else".
Then, after a quotation from Abraham Lincoln, the noble Lord said:
"However desperately we in the West may want and work for disarmament agreements, there are certain principles we will not compromise."
I was very glad to read that.
I should like to conclude by asking the noble Lord—and I am sure he will be able to do it—to reconcile this statement of his with the Press interview given by the Foreign Secretary on October 8 in New York. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, mentioned this particular interview, although he mentioned some other statements the Foreign Secretary made. What he indicated at

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this interview was that we might be prepared to consider abandoning M.L.F. and A.N.F., or both, in order to get a non-dissemination agreement with Russia. Well, my Lords, as neither of these proposed forces, M.L.F. or A.N.F., has come into being, and as they are both very much in the blueprint stage, at first sight one would think it a very small price to pay for a real non-dissemination agreement. But the point is that if you were to abandon them, it might well have serious effects on the unity of NATO, if NATO thought you were going behind their backs and making an agreement with the Russians.
I thought, when I read the Foreign Secretary's interview, that there were two problems which might arise from it: one a comparatively trivial domestic problem, which was that A.N.F. is the method of getting the Labour Party "off the hook" on the question of the British nuclear deterrent, and if you are going to throw that away, what will the Labour Party do? Will they admit that we must have an independent nuclear deterrent, or not? However, that is trivial compared with the international problem, of what effect this might have on NATO. I think the Foreign Secretary's interview and the suggestion which he made about the possibility of doing this has caused a good deal of concern, both among our NATO Allies, and perhaps also in the United States.
I am quite sure that the Foreign Secretary would be the first person to agree that there are some concessions which could defeat their own object, and that if you made a concession which would mean the disruption of NATO, the result would be that you would not get your dissemination agreement. You would lose both ways. You would lose NATO and your dissemination agreement, because the Communists, when they saw NATO breaking up, would immediately decide that it was not worth making an agreement of this kind, and would revert to their former belief that they can obtain their objectives by power politics and without making these agreements. Therefore, I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, to deal with this point of the Foreign Secretary's, and to explain exactly what the Foreign Secretary meant. We all agree that we ought to seek to
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make any concession which can be made without doing harm of this kind, in order to persuade the Russians to make the non-dissemination agreement—and Russian agreement is essential if ever we are to get disarmament. But, at the same time, we must make it plain—and I hope that the noble Lord will make it plain—that we cannot disrupt NATO or take any action which might lead to the weakening of NATO, because the strength of NATO is an essential foundation for all our hopes, both in disarmament and of world peace.
5.21 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I must first of all apologise to the House. Our schedule has been rather upset, and in any case I have to rush off soon as I have an unbreakable engagement, and I fear I shall not be able to come back to hear the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, wind up. I also rise with considerable reluctance to intervene in this debate, in the first place because I am not an expert myself on disarmament, though I have, I suppose, been associated with it in some way for a very long time; I have, as it were, lived with it. Furthermore, I think one always has a certain sense of despondency, if not in our weaker moments even a sense of futility, when we consider this tremendous subject, which has now after all been discussed, not for the last twenty years, if I may venture to correct the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, but probably for the last forty years.
Ever since I went into the Service in 1924, I remember, as I say, living to some extent with this appalling problem. I remember very well the first great conference on disarmament presided over so magnificently by the father of the noble Lord who introduced this subject, Mr. Arthur Henderson. I remember attending myself the conference in 1932 in Geneva, in which Mr. Anthony Eden, as he then was, took a prominent part. Even then one began to be filled with a certain sense of futility when one had many committees sitting to decide whether a tank was an offensive or a defensive weapon. It was quite evident that there was, I am afraid, no real political will to push the thing through. I remember, for instance, after the war, when we were considering whether we should refer to this great matter in the

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Charter of the United Nations, the Russians, for some extraordinary reason, seemed rather reluctant to do so. So I asked Mr. Gromyko, in front of other people, "Why is it you object to even mentioning the word 'disarmament' in the Charter?", for he would only go so far as to talk about the regulation of armaments. After a long pause he said, "It is a slogan". As a matter of fact, I am told that it was Lenin who first said that it was a slogan—I do not know when, but probably in 1918. So that was not very encouraging to start up our discussions, when you could not even get the Russians willingly to admit that even the word should appear in the Charter, although they eventually did.
Then we got on to the discussions of the whole problem, and all this has now ended up, so far as actual disarmament is concerned, in the great plan, which has not yet been agreed, for general and complete disarmament. Here I can only echo what the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, said. It is evident that you must have three major conditions for anything of the sort. First of all, you must have complete verification. Here I urge your Lordships, if you are really interested in the subject, to read an excellent work published about six months ago by my ex-colleague and friend Sir Michael Wright, who was for three years associated with this enormous problem in Geneva, and elsewhere, called Disarm and Verify. It emerges from that work most clearly that these conditions which he maintains should be accepted, and thinks can be accepted, because he is an optimist, are appallingly difficult when you come to consider them. Verification would require an army of highly-trained international officials all over the world, particularly from all the great Powers. Apart from the expense of recruitment it would be difficult to see how they could operate.
Now it is clear that it is impossible—things have gone too far—to verify the exact stocks of fissile material. Even the experts, I gather, acknowledge now that you cannot, with the best will in the world, however many experts you have, be absolutely certain that there is no more fissile material in Russia or the United States beyond what has been declared by the Government that it possesses. As only 10 per cent. of the existing colossal
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stocks would probably be enough to wreck the world, it seems difficult to imagine that you are going to make successful progress in the field of verification, and that is essential.
The second condition is that at every stage of this vast plan you must have a balance. You must never pass from one stage to the other until it is absolutely certain that nobody is going to steal a march on the other person and thus affect a complete balance of forces. Your Lordships can see how difficult that would be to arrange. Finally—and this might be the most difficult thing of all—before you can even move out of stage one, you have to have agreement on the prior constitution of a sort of peace army, a United Nations peace force. A United Nations peace force can operate—we all know this—only if there is an authority, in fact it must be world authority, on which it can depend. So before you can even start, or get very far with this great plan, you must have a world authority, and, of course, it stands to reason that until you get that authority you will not have real disarmament. But it is a good thing to plan and this work has not been done in vain. The great plan, partially agreed, stands there as a kind of monument.
It is quite clear that you cannot get on with it, and never would be able to get on with it, until there is a reduction of tension in the world, and until at any rate some progress has been made towards solving the major political problems. At the moment, when there is a war raging in Vietnam, and a potential war elsewhere, it is inconceivable that you can make much progress with this great plan for complete and general world disarmament. It is logically possible, but not at the present time. First of all—and this is not impossible—we must create a sort of climate of peace, as is said, right round the Northern Hemisphere, which I think is not inconceivable in the next few years; and then we might well have time to get this matter out of its pigeonhole and get on with it—but not before.
What we have been able to do up to now, seeing that disarmament up to now has been impossible, is to make progress with what is called, broadly speaking, the regulation of armaments. In the regulation of armaments, of course, there

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has been one triumph, and that is the Test Ban Treaty. Why did that Treaty ever come about? What was the real reason for that? I suggest that it was the constitution or the completion, if you like, of the famous balance of terror. When there is a situation such as we have now—it may be the precarious balance of terror, but anyhow it exists—its first fruit is to produce agreement between the two great super-Powers of the world not to poison further the atmosphere by letting off these devices when there is no need for either of them to let off any more. I think that fairly shortly, with a bit of luck, this ban will be extended to underground tests, and I think that so far as the Soviet Union and America are concerned there will be no more tests; and that is an excellent thing and one of the bases of the climate of peace which has gradually been established—inevitably by the force of things, by the balance of terror—by the Americans and the Russians themselves. That is excellent, and we can only hope that other people perhaps will sign it. As one or two countries explode a bomb, later on even China might support it. Why not?
Then we get on to the other great outstanding question and the real regulation of armaments which is clearly the question of proliferation. On proliferation, there are optimists who say—I do not think I am one of them—that just as the balance of terror is the only thing which produces peace, so it may be that if further countries get a small or not very large nuclear potential they will be even more cautious than they were before. There is a considerable reason, for instance, to suppose that since the explosion of their nuclear devices the Chinese have been far more cautious as regards the Vietnamese war. They now realise that if they go too far, the first thing that will probably happen is that the Americans will send conventional bombers to Lanchow and do away with their means of producing the atom bomb. Therefore they have become much more amenable to the frame of mind which may well lead to some kind of peace emerging in the Far East. All these things are paradoxical but there is some truth in them.
There is a danger, of course, given the situation between India and Pakistan, that India might become a nuclear
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Power and an obvious danger in the Middle East of Egypt's using a bomb for her own purposes. Of course, we all know that it would not matter in the least if Sweden or Switzerland had the bomb. In this field generally there is a certain danger, but it is not overwhelming. What is disturbing is this apparent Russian conviction that the Atlantic Nuclear Force, or indeed the M.L.F., will be an appalling example of proliferation, in the sense that it will inevitably "give the German Generals the nuclear bomb", as they will have it. I think one of the main things which the Foreign Secretary and the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, can do is to disabuse the minds of the Russians of this appalling misconception, and even, I should think, a nightmare, because the creation of an Atlantic Nuclear Force, if it was ever possible, would result in not more but less proliferation. Inevitably it would mean that the British and French nuclear forces would be more or less amalgamated. What would be done with them, nobody knows. But there would be one authority rather than two, which, on the face of it, would be less proliferation. Furthermore, the association of the Germans, not in the way of making these horrible things, but in some form of control over this new force, should make Germany more cautious, rather than more aggressive, towards the Russians. The Germans do not want to be blown up, and I cannot see why the Russians should think that the Atlantic Nuclear Force would really be such an enormous menace to them.
We had an Atlantic Treaty Association meeting in Rome which I thought was very successful, and one of the recommendations there was something which bore a marked resemblance to that brainchild of the Labour Administration. I rather hope that they will not abandon this brain-child, because it has much potential good in it, and I commend this particular resolution to the noble Lord in case he has not seen it. It was agreed to by a powerful French and a powerful German delegation, to say nothing of British, Italian and other representatives.
I have talked too long and I know noble Lords will wish to hear other views on this matter, so I will conclude by saying that we on these Benches are particularly glad that a brilliant man of the calibre of the noble Lord, Lord

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Chalfont, has the task of doing this essential preparatory work, for such I think it is, for something which will come into operation if and when the political circumstances permit. After all, nobody could be better qualified, for, as we all know, he was brought up in the best Liberal traditions and therefore he has clearly the right instincts in this crucial matter of disarmament. We were indeed sorry to lose him, but we tend to regard him less as a deserter than as a sort of infiltrator into the Socialist camp. In any case, we wish him all possible luck in these disheartening negotiations with which he is so suitably associated.
5.35 p.m.
LORD SOPER: My Lords, I also must begin by craving the indulgence of this House. I, too, have been trapped by the time schedule and have to keep a date at Great St. Mary's, Cambridge, later on in the evening; therefore I must ask the noble Lord if he will excuse me if I also have to go immediately after I have spoken. I am the more sorry because I should have been most anxious to hear what my noble friend Lord Chalfont had to say in reply to many of the questions which have already been asked. He has been good enough to indicate that he understands that I have to go, and I am sure he will understand also that I approach this problem of disarmament from the pacifist angle and as one rooted in the pacifist principle.
I am not discouraged from venturing to say my piece on this theme because of the wide drawing of the actual terms of this debate. We are invited to call attention to problems concerning disarmament, and no one can complain that hitherto none of these problems has been ventilated. In fact, they have been widely and wisely thought of, and no doubt enlightening answers will be given when my noble friend, rises to answer. But in the gracious Speech this Government committed themselves to the promotion of disarmament, and therefore I will take courage and try to say something of what seems to me, at least, to lie within the pacifist position, not as something which can be immediately translated into governmental action, but as a principle which can be of service to the Government and the community in their search for peace and in their programme of disarmament.
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Let me briefly say what the position that I hold adds up to. I believe it is never right for a professing Christian to indulge in war in any circumstances; therefore, so far as I am a free agent, in no circumstances do I feel able to contribute to it. Most of my noble ecclesiastical friends, who are at least here in spirit, I am sure, would agree as a general proposition that war is evil; but they do not agree, as the majority of Church people do not agree, that there are no circumstances in which it is permissible, and they hang on to the proposition that in certain circumstances a just war is not only permissible but is in fact the lesser of two evils. There is a consequence for the pacifist which immediately flows from his total rejection, in so far as he is a free agent, of participation in war, and it is simply that he therefore cannot tolerate as morally permissible the instruments of war, and therefore he attaches the same moral obloquy to the methods by which a war can be prepared as he does to the actual exercise of war itself.
It is in this particular frame that I would make a pertinent comment, not as an arrogant pacifist seeking to convert this House to pacifism, but as one who has laboured long enough in the Pacifist cause to realise how multitudinous are its difficulties and how lacking in humility are some of its protagonists; and I believe it is in this field that a contribution can be made. It is that if a pacifist feels compelled by his faith to reject—as by my faith I feel compelled to reject—the instrumentality of war, he cannot sit back thereafter and say, "I have done my bit; now let others do theirs". He has to contribute positively what he believes to be the moral alternative to that grievous exhibition of violence which so many sincere people feel they are compelled to make.
It is in this field that I would turn to the whole question of disarmament and propose, as a general statement of what is to be believed, that disarmament is not the flower and fruit of the process of peace-making; it is the ground and tillage of that peace-making. I believe there is a rose that is called "Peace". The disarmament programme is not (shall we say?) the bloom and blossom of that rose; it is the cultivation of that rose. We have already heard a good deal in this debate of the problems that confront

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us in a world where there is suspicion and hatred and a good deal of rather naive thinking about philosophies to which we do not attach our own thinking. It is therefore, I would humbly suggest to your Lordships, a question not so much of saying, "Let us wait for the circumstances which will be propitious and then we can disarm". The very nature of these propitious circumstances depends on the initiation whereby we undertake certain processes of disarmament, not because the world is ready to receive them, not because our enemies are trustworthy, not because everybody is good and kind and gentle, but because only by the prosecution of such a programme can such an end be envisaged.
I quite agree—who can deny it?—that there is widespread suspicion. How much of that suspicion, however, is quite definitely associated with the possession of armaments, and not only with the prosecution of wars? It was Sir Winston Churchill who, very sapiently, said that lying in wartime is an indispensable ally. We all know that in war truth is the first casualty. I think we have to learn that before a war starts nobody tells the truth about the armaments he possesses, and the very possession of armaments occludes the processes of honesty and straightforwardness. I am no Communist, though I find a good many of the contentions against Communists naïve and uninformed—and I would remind the noble Earl that it was Mr. Khrushchev who alone, of all the world's statesmen, has proposed total disarmament by a process of stages; and, furthermore, the bringing down to certain quite appreciably lower levels the armed forces of the Soviet Union has been one very constructive and obvious plan of making evident to the world, as he said, the good intentions of the Soviet Union. I will not delay the House to talk about the relative merits. I have never attached total depravity to the Communists, although they have their usual dose of Original Sin. What I am concerned to say is that only by the exercise of a positive attitude of risks taken in disarmament is it likely that we shall change the dubious atmosphere in which so many people feel that it is impossible to undertake any disarmament at all.
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I will delay the House no longer than to point this particular lesson, if it is a lesson, in one particular field. If unilateral action is required in general terms to promote the ends of disarmament and peace, how much more imperative is that action in the light of the nuclear threat? I find myself almost totally opposed to those who take comfort from the events of the Cuba crisis. The chilling thought to me is that, whereas Mr. Khrushchev was deterred by the nuclear threat, Mr. Kennedy was not. And when people comfort me, or seek to comfort me, by saying, "Here is evidence of the mortal danger which threatens the world, the mortal danger which is postponed and held in check by the dreadful consequences which will attach to either side if they go to war in a nuclear age", I find myself utterly bewildered, because so far as the evidence goes to show—and recently that evidence has been made quite clear in the Sunday newspapers—America was not deterred; America was prepared to take the very risk that the possession of nuclear arms is said to prevent. I shudder to think what will happen the next time such a crisis happens, when the man involved will not be Mr. Khrushchev, who was wiser than his fellows.
Then, only yesterday, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, pointed out, China has once again been refused admission to the United Nations. I will not delay your Lordships to talk about that, except to say that in my view it is wrong to assume that the Chinese attitude to the possibility of war, and nuclear war, is a compound of malevolence and treachery. It is no more malevolent or treacherous than the attitude of certain millenarian people and Egyptologists who prophesy the end of the world and all kinds of horrors at Armageddon before that end comes. I know that some of them were quite furious with the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, when he won the battle of Alamein and therefore prevented what they thought was to be Armageddon further down in Egypt. They are not animated by any sense of acute malevolence or vituperative violence, any more than the Chinese are.
What really happens is this. If you are utterly persuaded that the logic of history leads to certain military consequences, then you will set your sails in

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that direction and lay your plans. It is impossible to argue such people out of these totalitarian fantasies, but it is possible by presentation of ineluctable facts to present to them evidence which they cannot finally reject. Therefore, although it may sound idealistic, it would still seem to me to be a preferable risk in the world of nuclear threat that this country should unilaterally get rid of its nuclear possibilities and threats as a demonstration which even all the propaganda of Peking could not finally avoid.
I have one other point to make. I was immensely impressed by, and consistently felt the coerciveness of the argument of, my noble friend Lord Snow, that if proliferation of nuclear weapons continues, then, whether by accident or design, sooner or later, the calculations of probability are so high that it is relatively certain, it is statistically certain, that they will go off, or one of them will go off. That I believe to be a nightmare which is not very far from the logical thinking of anybody who takes the trouble to look carefully into this prospect, and who sees that unless a break is made in this vicious circle we are no happier and no more safe because just at the moment our headlines may be preoccupied with other matters.
I know that what I have said in defence of a pacifist position and in the interests of unilateral action is not a policy that can be undertaken at this moment. I witness to it. Moreover, my Lords, alongside the various efforts which I have no doubt are being made, and the various disclosures of better efforts that are in train or in the pipeline, which your Lordships will have an opportunity of hearing about a little later on when my noble friend Lord Chalfont replies, I would respectfully add what I am sure is in the mind and intention of the Government, the plea that to make an adventure in peacemaking will be a colossal risk. But I wonder whether it will be anything like the risk if we continue to wait for multilateral disarmament in a world which can only be made ready for it when somebody takes the risk of a personal, national, individual act of disarmament itself. That is a wish and a hope. It is more for me; it is a faith, and I should have been unfair and dishonest with myself if I did not communi-
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cate it to you. I hope very much when Lord Chalfont speaks to your Lordships he will be able to say that, in the interests of peace, this Government, to which such high hopes are attached, will in fact be taking a lead which is both adventurous and dangerous, but a lead which alone can bring a new spirit into the world.
5.47 p.m.
LORD CACCIA: My Lords, may I add my modest welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, for introducing this Motion? In his speech he asked a number of pointed and precise questions. Like Lord Henderson, I hope that the noble Lord, the Minister for Disarmament, will in due course, be able to deal with them in his reply, and I should not delay that by anything I could say if it were not that I wish to add one general question. But before coming to that, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to make some general reflections on the state of the human condition and about disarmament in general, particularly after what the noble Lord, Lord Soper has recently said to us.
The human condition has reached a peculiarly dangerous and paradoxical state in its development by staging the nuclear explosion and the population explosion at one and the same time. One part of its efforts are going towards the process of doubling its numbers, at a rate now calculated at twice every 35 years, and another part of its energies are being devoted to developing and producing weapons of mass destruction of such power that it is becoming possible that their all-out use would eliminate the human race from the face of the earth. It would therefore seem that a debate on this subject in your Lordships' House is timely now, and will be timely from time to time in the future. The rub, of course, is that despite all the paper and all the plans, and all the words expended on disarmament, there have been, at least in my working life as a diplomatist from 1929 onwards, all too few occasions when any results could be reasonably hoped for.
Meanwhile, some essential "rules of the road" have emerged; and, if I may say so respectfully, I have no doubt that the Minister of State has been observing them, and will continue to observe them, handsomely, and a lot else besides. The first of these is never to give up trying;

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the possible gain is so great for humanity as a whole, and for this country in particular, in avoiding unnecessary and unproductive expenditure on arms. There is plenty else to be done with the money, provided that national security is not endangered. On that Adam Smith may have said the first and the last word: "Defence is greater than opulence".
The second, and deriving from that, is to avoid confusion between what is desirable and what is attainable, and that, in particular at this time, is to know with whom we are negotiating, the Soviet Union. Having spent over four years doing just this, week in and week out in the Allied Commission in Austria (and for a large part of that time the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, was the Under-Secretary of State in the Foreign Office, under whose encouragement and direction we worked), I hope your Lordships will allow me to repeat what has often been said before about Soviet methods. It is that the Russians are not lightly or normally to be persuaded, by eloquence, or convenience, or by reasoned arguments. They prefer to rely on what Stalin used to call the proper basis of international policy, "the calculation of forces". In my experience, this basic concept has not changed much since Stalin died. I regret this, but it means that gestures and concessions, and unilateral acts done by way of example, have no validity, and that the Soviet Union merely puts them in her pocket and ascribes them to weakness, moral or financial. I think it is vital not to misunderstand the character of the Soviet Government and its approach to international policy and to believe otherwise.
The third general rule is that proper account must be taken of the fact that we have allies and are not in this alone. One of them, in particular, the United States of America, has an even greater stake in the security of the Free World than we have, and is now spending and risking more than we are in blood and treasure. This need not paralyse us. The example of the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty is a case in point, and, as the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, will remember, President Kennedy was most generous in his acknowledgement of the part which the British Government at that time had played in making such a Treaty possible.
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But it should persuade us to retain a certain sense of proportion.
The plain fact is that we, by ourselves, cannot offer the Russians any sufficient inducement to persuade them to make a worthwhile concession. We do not command a sufficient percentage of the stock. Once again, this should not depress us unduly. The same applies in great measure to the United States. It will still be of importance to the Soviet Union to know whether the Americans can deliver their friends.
As all these elementary guide lines are no doubt in the mind of the Minister—I say again that I would scarcely have intervened, and wasted your Lordships' time by such glimpses of the obvious, if I had not wanted to put a question of a general character lying behind the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and later by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee. I should myself say that it is "the 64-dollar question." It is this: is there any indication that the Russians may now want to do business on any ground which might be acceptable to us and our major allies? I ask this out of a searing experience of the Austrian State Treaty.
Some years after it had been concluded, I met a Russian diplomatist (for his own safety perhaps he had better remain anonymous) who said to me over a drink: "Perhaps at this stage you will not mind my referring again to the discussions we had over many years and many hundreds of meetings on that Treaty. So far as we were concerned, it fell into two separate phases. During the entire first phase we had just one word of instruction from our Government. That word was, 'No.'" He then said, "We saw—I hope you will not mind my putting it this way—with interest, sometimes amusement, occasionally embarrassment, the way in which you would come back, and back, and back with new arguments why we should conclude this State Treaty. Our one word of instruction stood, and we had the difficult task of thinking up reasons why, on each occasion, we should not, after all, accept the arguments that were being put to us, no matter with what cogency. It was not until the second stage was reached, which was after the departure of Stalin, that a new view was taken in Moscow, one

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which included the thought that a conventional type war in Europe was most unlikely, and that therefore it was a matter of relative unimportance whether Russian troops were 100 miles forward in one place or a few miles back in another in the area of Austria. From that moment onwards the word was 'Yes' on certain conditions."
So, my Lords, I think it is a valid question to ask: is there now some real indication that the Russians may be ready to do business on terms that we and our allies can contemplate? Of course, normally the Russians do not give many such indications, if they were a Power operating in the Western manner it would be possible to say to them, quite openly, or at least informally: is there any possibility of doing business or not? If you were told that, for political reasons of various kinds, it was not, that would be that. But, of course, in the Russian case it is not a question that one can ask. No Russian would be likely to give an answer, for fear of what might happen to him should he say anything at all revealing; and in any case he would be most unlikely to know, unless he were one of the few—and there are very few—near the centre of power.
All the same, there are sometimes signs and portents of a change. There was such over the, nuclear test ban arrangement. If it is not an embarrassing matter to the Minister, perhaps I may ask whether he has any reason to hope for some result now, or should we conclude that he is soldiering on, since in this matter of disarmament we must never give up—and I am quite sure that he, above all, would never be ready to give up. If I may make the question more precise on one special point: is there any hope that this might be in the field of non-proliferation or non-dissemination of nuclear weapons, and that there may be some solution which will not damage NATO still more than it has already been weakened by the attitude of one of our major allies?
6.0 p.m.
LORD HAIRE or WHITEABBEY: My Lords, I do not have the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, but I should like to join with him in offering congratulations to my noble friend Lord Henderson upon the excellent lead he gave this afternoon. His is a noble name, noble in more senses than one,
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particularly in the many chapters on disarmament. I wonder what his father, who was the "father" of disarmament in my young days after World World I, would be saying to-day, two-thirds of the way through the century, if lie heard that his son was carrying on his good work. It is interesting that in the field of disarmament the names that stand out during the century are those of Arthur Henderson and Philip Noel-Baker, who in recent years has been awarded the Nobel Prize; and, in no Party sense, I would mention that these are former Labour Ministers.
To-day, we are, in a sense, really carrying on the debate on the gracious Speech, a speech in which the Government undertake to promote disarmament". The Government have already given ample evidence within the last year, since they came to office, of their interest in disarmament and thus have in fact created a new Ministry of Disarmament, over which my noble friend Lord Chalfont is Minister. We welcome him here to-day from his arduous duties elsewhere to give us a reply this evening. In world affairs at present he holds a very privileged position and a key in which, if I may say so, he has already distinguished himself. There is a long way to go with disarmament, and he is really only doing his job when he is not here.
Disarmament, in my view, can take place only within the context of the United Nations. The 51 peace-loving nations, who met at the Golden Gate in San Francisco some twenty years ago, pledged themselves to keep the peace—to live in peace—and practise tolerance, they said. The 51 have now grown to 115, so, in a reverse way, we can say that the threats to peace to-day are all, or almost all, contained within the United Nations. Of the Great Powers only China remains outside. And who can say what the threat to peace from China is so long as she is frustrated in her efforts to join? So long as she is in an aggressive mood, she can almost, without saying a word, delay progress to disarmament and upset the balance without which we cannot move steadily to full nuclear disarmament. I, like other noble Lords who have taken part in the debate this afternoon, very much regret that even yesterday it was not found possible at the United Nations to admit China to the Club.

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My Lords, in spite of those early protestations of peace-loving in the United Nations, the Organisation is still far from achieving its goal, especially the goal of disarmament. Disarmament requires a world climate of confidence in the peacemakers; whereas to-day, as we all know, there is but mistrust and suspicion throughout the world.
We know that in the last twenty years the United Nations has had to face many problems. It has been, and still is being, torn by the pressure of power politics. It has been hampered, to put it mildly, for many years by the cold war. It has been frustrated by conflicts of interest, and unbridgeable differences such as we are experiencing to-day in Rhodesia—and who can say what these may bring? The racialism of the Smith Government and the colour conflict there are blatant evidence of hate and discrimination. So how can we expect the new nations of Africa to lend a hand in aid of disarmament? Indeed, only the other day my noble friend Lord Shepherd, speaking from the Front Bench, very effectively said that one of the greatest dangers to peace, and especially in the present situation, is the fearful possibility of a colour conflict. While this fear lasts, disarmament is impeded and only the Great Powers can set an example.
My noble friend Lord Henderson has to-day ably and lucidly outlined what are the immediate problems and what little has been achieved. The partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty is about the only highlight of the story. It followed years of frustration, years of abortive discussion: talks of inspection, of verification, of so-called balanced disarmament—and, now, non-proliferation agreements. So often to the ordinary layman it seems talk and nothing else. Yet think of the prize of even partial success for us here. We spend £2,000 million a year on defence. If, by even partial disarmament, we could reduce that burden, think how peace might flourish in our midst. Think of the houses, the schools, the hospitals, the factories, the roads we could build with the money saved. Whatever frustrations my noble friend the Minister has to suffer from the endless, boring, and sometimes stifling discussions, he knows that, in the end, every minute will be worth it, if by his efforts he
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can reduce our present crippling bill for armaments.
For many people, however, the goal of disarmament is too far away to be realistic. They look for more limited objectives, and, as my noble friend Lord Henderson said this afternoon, we must seek to make progress in a limited field. It is here that I would attempt to make one small contribution. I have been very much impressed by the success, or partial success, which has attended the United Nations' peace-keeping efforts. This may seem to be an odd way to pursue disarmament. Only when there is an effective deterrent, in the shape of an International Peace Force, will nations realise the uselessness of building up large stockpiles of costly armaments. Yet it is in these efforts towards peace-keeping that the United Nations has largely come unstuck.
The unwillingness of certain nations to become involved in peace-keeping operations is very apparent. The unwillingness of certain other larger nations—indeed, members of the Security Council—to contribute towards peace-keeping operations of which they do not approve has brought the United Nations to the brink of bankruptcy and created a crisis in the Organisation. The debt for peace-keeping has recently been as high as 143 million dollars or, shall we say, £50 million. The refusal of the U.S.S.R., France and certain Eastern European countries to pay their peace-keeping contributions has caused a rapid deterioration in the United Nations' financial position. But once again may I say that our Government showed their good faith.
In spite of our adverse economic conditions—and with a change of policy since we had previously insisted on knowing first how much the Russians would contribute—the Government have made a handsome gesture within recent months with a pledge of some 10 million dollars, or £3 million, towards the peace-keeping deficit. This might have given a lead to the United States, but so far there has been no change in her policy. Of course, the United States already contributes generously to the funds of the United Nations. She pays 32·7 per cent. of the peace-keeping budget, while at the same time paying 32 per cent. of the regular budget. Britain pays 7·2 per cent. of the peace-keeping costs. The U.S.S.R. was

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assessed at 14·9 per cent. and France at just over 6 per cent. So our Government's additional contribution of £3 million was a most welcome and generous offer, especially as at the beginning of the 19th Session of the United Nations there were 62 nations in arrears of contributions.
Peace-keeping is a costly operation, but we shall all surely agree that it is a well worth while one. For example, at the height of the Congo United Nations' operations the costs to be met by the United Nations were 114 million dollars a year, or £38 million, and for the 1960–63 period they were running at £30 million a year. Such is the price of peacekeeping. But who in this country will deny the value of peace-keeping operations in, for example, Kashmir, in Cyprus, in the Middle East and other places; and now perhaps in Rhodesia? If peace-keeping, with all its costs, is to be regarded as a stage on the road to general disarmament, and certainly to an International Peace Force, then any contribution by this Government is money well spent.
6.11 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I must begin by apologising to the Members of this House for being absent when the debate began. I had a political engagement in Norwich, and I deeply regret that I did not hear the speech with which my noble friend Lord Henderson opened the debate. I would also apologise to the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, for being absent when he spoke for the Opposition.
My noble friend Lord Haire of Whiteabbey has made reference to the fact that this Government now have a Disarmament Minister. I want to emphasise that, because I regard it as of tremendous significance. It is the first time that any Government in this country has had a Minister whose whole thought, energies and enthusiasm are directed to the purpose of disarmament. I not only welcome the fact that we have such a Minister; I welcome the fact that my noble friend Lord Chalfont is that Minister, because none of us can have heard him or met him without appreciating the dedication which he has given to that task. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, suggested that he was a Liberal who had
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infiltrated the Labour Party. I would rather put it in this way: that Liberalism is a very good apprenticeship for the more developed ideas which not only Lord Chalfont but I myself went through as we joined the Labour Party.
The Minister for Disarmament is mostly concerned in the international field, in the very difficult task of bringing Governments together, in the development of the Test Ban Treaty, and in the prevention of the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I wish that his duties also included that of influencing the expenditure on armaments of our own Government, which I suppose is mostly in the hands of the Minister of Defence and the Ministers representing the War Office, the Air Force, and the Admiralty. I am going to make a plea this evening that there should be a substantial reduction in our own expediture on defence.
As my noble friend Lord Haire of Whiteabbey has said, our expenditure on defence now reaches the appalling figure of £2,100 million a year. We have a Minister for Disarmament, but that figure is actually £100 million more than it was a year ago. The Government have promised that they will not exceed the limit of £2,000 million a year before the end of this decade, but that limit is to be at 1964 prices, and it may well mean that by 1969–70 the expenditure upon defence by this country will have reached the figure of £2,500 million.
The Government have claimed that this is a reduction of £400 million, on the ground that the programme of their predecessors would have reached that figure. Quite honestly, I find it a little strange that a Government should take credit for a reduction in expenditure of one of its Departments, on the ground of the intentions of the Opposition. I know that the Government are now having a review of the whole subject of defence, and I express the hope that that review may mean that the present figure of £2,100 million will be substantially reduced. I repeat—and I am perfectly sure that my noble friend Lord Chalfont will agree with this point—that while we have this vast expenditure we cannot be building the houses; we cannot be building the schools; we cannot be building the hospitals; we cannot be building the roads, which this country so much needs. Moreover, we cannot, while we are expending

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these vast sums upon defence, be attracting to the most essential services of our country the teachers, the nurses and the others, by paying them the salaries which their service to the community deserves.
I add to that one item in the Labour Government's programme about which I think I am keener in the domestic sphere than any other, and that is that we should establish in this country a minimum standard of life below which no one should be allowed to fall. That is within our programme, but because of the cost of that it has been postponed. I would urge very strongly indeed that we should seek a reduction of our expenditure on armaments and preparations for war, in order that at least we may lift the whole community of our people above a poverty level so that they may enjoy a decent human life.
I want to congratulate the Government, if I may, on certain decisions which they have reached. I include the cancellation of the TSR 2, which has saved us £700 million. There were great fears when that cancellation was announced. There were fears of unemployment among men who were engaged in constructing that aircraft. We have found, in fact, that other industries of a constructive character have been so much in need of their skilled labour that hardly any of the men who were previously employed on the TSR 2 are now unemployed. I must express the hope that the Government will refrain from ordering American aircraft as substitutes for the TSR 2. I should have hoped the difficulties of our balance-of-payments position would have made them careful about that.
I congratulate the Government also, despite what has been said in another place and in this House, on their decision to reorganise the Territorial Services, which, again, will mean a saving of £20 million a year. We have been promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there shall be a reduction by £100 million next year. I welcome that, but even that will only bring us down to £2,000 million, which was the figure for last year, and many of us do not feel that that is enough.
The Minister will be well aware of the feeling in our Party upon this subject. I find it very remarkable that the Par-
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liamentary Labour Party in another place quite unanimously adopted a resolution saying that in their view drastic cuts are required in defence expenditure much earlier than at present proposed. The Minister was present at the Labour Party Conference, and his speech at that Conference, I know, convinced the delegates of the sincerity with which he is facing his task. But he sat through the debate and he knows the intensity of feeling that there is in the membership of the Labour Party for more drastic disarmament—and that has been expressed by the Parliamentary Labour Party in the resolution which it has adopted. Honestly, we cannot be complacent with a situation in which, in every minute that passes, this country is spending £67 million on armaments, on Armies and on defence. That amounts to 15s. a week off the income of every man, woman and child in this country, and the Minister will know how all of us in our Party desire that that should be ended.
May I just put this point from the standpoint of the problem of balance of payments, which is so much the concern of the Government now? Every year £350 million of the money spent on defence is in foreign currency. That £350 million amounts to one-half of Britain's deficit in the external account. May I also draw the Minister's attention to the fact that, whilst our expenditure on defence has been increasing, other Governments have been decreasing their expenditure. The Soviet Union has done it by £240 million; the United States of America has done it by an even larger figure of £350 million, although I am afraid that recently, owing to the war in Vietnam, there has been a tendency to increase; and West Germany, France and Hungary have all cut their defence expenditure. It is a little sad that our Government should be the only Government among the larger Powers whose defence expenditure is increasing.
The Minister will not be surprised if I identify myself with the 78 Labour Members of another place who have asked for a reduction of 25 per cent.—that is, £500 million—in our annual defence expenditure. He has the right to ask how we should bring about those reductions. First, I would say, in the presence of our 50,000 troops in Western Germany. They cost us £85 million a year, of which, again, two-thirds is in the

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foreign currency which we can ill-afford. They went to Western Germany to meet the fear of a Red Army overflowing into Western Europe. I do not believe there is anyone who now regards that as a danger: and I take the view that this is particularly ironic when West Germany itself has recently cut its own defence expenditure by £70 million a year.
The second sphere in which I believe our defence expenditure could be reduced is in the Far East. We have there 55,000 troops, costing us £225 million a year. They are engaged in the confrontation of Indonesia and Malaysia. I make the point only in passing (because I do not want to emphasise it) that from the first I took the view that Malaysia was an artificial Federation. It was to be a Federation of five countries. One of those five, Brunei, did not join at the beginning: another, Singapore, has been expelled from it; and it is now clear that the whole pattern in that area will have to be reconsidered. This is a little outside the sphere of the Minister, but perhaps he could pass it on to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that surely the changes that have recently taken place in Indonesia itself, and the statement by President Soekarno on this very matter, make it desirable that some initiative should be taken to bring the war between Indonesia and Malaysia to an end, so that a wider confederation can he established in that area which really will reflect the minds of people.
Thirdly, there is the sphere of the Middle East. The bases in Cyprus and Aden cost this country £125 million a year. At the time of the Suez venture the noble Earl, Lord Avon, urged that British action then was necessary in defence of the oil supplies which Britain needed. But the Labour Party has always laid it down that our oil supplies should be guaranteed by commercial arrangements rather than through the use and threat of force. In addition, our Party has said quite clearly that bases should not be retained on any territory against the wishes of the population of that territory. In the case of Cyprus and Aden, I quote Mr. Denis Healey, the Minister of Defence. He has said that they are:
"commitments from an imperial past which have lost their relevance in the modern world",
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and which are—I quote again—
"based on the false belief that it is still possible or worth while to use military force against foreign countries purely to protect our national economic interest".
My Lords, the time has come when this country must adjust itself, not only to the fact that it is no longer one of the great military Powers of the world but to the fact that if there are to be peacekeeping operations in the world, they should be the responsibility of the United Nations rather than the responsibility of any Government or of any group of Governments. I quote once again from a speech Mr. Denis Healey delivered on February 23 last year:
"Our long-term defences have to be adjusted to colonial and foreign policies. We are not, repeat not, going to have bases overseas in ten years' time; certainly not, repeat not, in countries that are not Colonies…The major problem for the next Labour Government is going to be to decide whether there are any real British interests overseas which it is going to be in the long run both politically and militarily possible to protect by force."
Accept that principle, and we shall be able to reduce our vast expenditure on defence.
My Lords, I began by saying that while we have our present expenditure on defence it will be impossible to proceed with urgent measures to relieve poverty, to extend education and to meet the ravages of disease in our own country. I want to end with another reason. Not only has this country to reduce its expenditure on defence, but we have to encourage the Minister in approaching his problem of international disarmament so that world expenditure upon defence may be decreased. It is not only poverty in Britain; it is the fact that nearly half the population of the world is hungry; it is the fact that half the population of the world are not receiving the medical attention which could prevent disease; it is the fact that nearly half the world has no opportunities of education. Added to the present tragedy which that reflects is the increase of population to which the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, referred: the fact that our population will be doubled in 35 years. That population will face starvation because food production in the world is not adequate to begin to meet it. If only the same powers of science which are spent on armaments were devoted to construction, it would be possible not only to remove present

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hunger in the world but to remove the hunger that is likely to develop.
One-third of the territory of the earth is desert. We know that that desert can be made fertile soil. Beneath the desert is water. If it had been oil it would have been brought to the surface long ago, but the water to make the deserts fertile is even more important for mankind than oil. We have seen the wonderful experiments in Israel. We have seen the remarkable experiments in Libya under the auspices of the Food and Agriculture Organisation. We have been hearing recently of the projects of Miss Campbell-Purdie in Morocco and Algeria which give the promise even of the Sahara becoming fertile area.
One of the great reasons why to-day we should be reducing our expenditure on arms and devoting that expenditure to meeting the needs of the world is the fact that not only our own present poverty but the poverty which will extend as the population grows will doom millions to hunger unless we divert science to the purposes of construction rather than to the purposes of death.
6.35 p.m.
THE MINISTER or STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, I should like first to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, for introducing this Motion and for doing it in such clear and constructive terms. As has already been said, there is probably no noble Lord in this House more suited by his background to lead us in a debate of this sort, and I find it moving and impressive that he should be following so clearly and well in the footsteps of his distinguished father. I should like, to say a word of appreciation for the many comments that have been made during this debate about my appointment and about the difficulties I face in it. I would say how useful and valuable I have found every contribution made to this debate this afternoon.
Then, if I may, I would refer to the speech just made by my noble friend Lord Brockway. It was, as always, a sincere and moving speech. He is always sincere and I always listen with respect to what he has to say on the subject. But I know he will forgive me if I do
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not follow him in his references to the Defence Review and the changes which may become necessary in the shape of our Defence structure. These considerations I know he will not expect me to comment upon. There is one point that I might make for the record. I make it in no sense as a debating point; but he did suggest (unless I misunderstood him) that we are spending £67 million a minute on defence. There has been, I think, a slight mathematical infelicity here. I would suggest that this sum is nearer £3,500 a minute. That is not small; but it is a little smaller than £67 million.
I hope your Lordships will agree that it is important that, as was suggested, I should from time to time have an opportunity to report to your Lordships' House at some length on the progress that is being made in the international disarmament negotiations and to set out the general lines of thought and policy that guide Her Majesty's Government in their approach to this problem. The noble Earl opposite, in his very thoughtful and careful speech, was good enough to recall that the last time I had the privilege of discussing these matters with you I was taking part in the deliberations of the 18-Nation Disarmament Committee in Geneva in the summer, and that I returned to London expressly to take part in the debate in your Lordships' House. On this occasion, I have returned from the Twentieth Assembly of the United Nations in New York, where the First Political Committee of the General Assembly is now engaged in a disarmament debate.
Before I begin to deal specifically with the issues that we have been discussing in Geneva and New York, perhaps I should make it clear—indeed the noble Earl foreshadowed that I would do this—that the progress I shall have to report will be in no sense dramatic or spectacular. Your Lordships will know, indeed the understanding of this has become clear to me this afternoon, that the problems of disarmament are not the sort of problems that can be solved overnight. They involve, on the one hand, political decisions of great significance, decisions that have to do with the basic political structure of the world; with the concept of the sovereign nation State and all the

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pressures and all the fears that are peculiar to this concept. And, as His Holiness Pope Paul VI said in the memorable address he gave us in the United Nations Assembly a little over a month ago:
"Peace is not built up only by means of politics, by the balance of forces and of interests. It is constructed with the mind, with ideas, with works of peace."
At the same time, within the general framework of these far-reaching political and moral considerations, disarmament and arms control are matters of great technical complexity; they involve the delicate balance between the search for peace and the requirements of security and they involve also the constantly accelerating pace of scientific research and technological development. I say this simply to point out that, although I am convinced that in the long run we shall solve these problems, because we must, it would be foolish and misleading to suggest that they will be solved quickly. I must say, in this connection, that I was a little depressed to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, who has unfortunately had to leave the Chamber, was so pessimistic about the possibilities in this respect. It was not always so in the Liberal Party.
When the Party opposite was in power its representatives at the various disarmament negotiations worked long and patiently for much the same aims as Her Majesty's Government are working for now. In their time there was one significant step forward on the road to disarmament. I mean the Treaty, signed in Moscow in 1963, which prohibited the testing of nuclear devices in the atmosphere, in space and under the sea. Although this cannot be represented, or should not be, as a spectacular achievement in international co-operation, its importance as a step towards the eventual goal of disarmament should never be forgotten; and I have no hesitation in paying tribute to the vital part played in the achievement of that agreement by the British Government of the day. I believe that it is by way of these gradual and painfully achieved steps that we shall eventually break through the political barrier and the psychological barrier to disarmament and the achievement of a world governed by the international rule of law rather than by the rule of force and fear.
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What, in fact, has happened in disarmament negotations since I last addressed your Lordships' House before the Summer Recess? The main weight of effort has been, as I suggested then that it would be, in one particular area of the disarmament problem: what is called the non-proliferation issue—the urgent need to prevent the further spread of nuclear weapons—to prevent the development of nuclear weapons in those countries that have the scientific and technical resources to do so. There are disturbing signs that some of them are now beginning, disastrously I believe, to think that to join the so-called nuclear "club" will give them not only greater status in the world but greater security against their real or imagined enemies.
I will not to-day repeat the arguments that I have developed before in your Lordships' House about the gravity and urgency of this problem. It is enough to remind your Lordships that, while we have to-day five Powers in the world that can be called nuclear Powers, in the sense that they have successfully detonated a nuclear device, there are at least a dozen other countries who, if they made the political decision to do so, could probably carry out a successful nuclear test within the next few years; that if we do not find some way of stopping this we may well have within the next ten or fifteen years not five but ten or a dozen nuclear powers. I think I need spend no more time in elaborating the dangers that such a development would bring, or in repeating at length to your Lordships my conviction that if this happens all the roads to disarmament will be blocked for many years to come.
In this context, may I say that I again take mild issue with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and agree with my noble friend Lord Soper in his analysis of the danger, the awful, appalling danger, with which this problem confronts us. We should be in no doubt about this and not allow ourselves to be reassured by any false premises or arguments that the growth of nuclear weapons in the world will bring greater security. I believe this to be a pathetic and dangerous fallacy.
In the deliberations of the First Political Committee in New York the delegates at the United Nations agreed, almost without dissent, that this problem is the most

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urgent of all those facing us at the moment, and with this in mind it was agreed that it should be the first item to be discussed by the Political Committee. In three weeks of debate on this one single item the representatives of 59 countries at the United Nations spoke and gave expression to their concern about this danger. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this, in itself, is a significant and encouraging development.
We have always said, since I made my very first examination of this problem when the Government first came to office, that this was the first important problem. Unless we halt and turn back the nuclear arms race, all other questions of disarmament will become merely a matter of academic debate. I believe that anyone who looks at this debate from the outside is entitled to ask one obvious question in the light of what I have just said. If so many people in the world are desperately anxious, as they seem to be, to stop nuclear weapons spreading, what is it that still lies in the way of agreement?
To answer that question I think I shall have to explain that in general terms, as was said by the noble Earl, there are two main elements in the problem. The first is the need for agreement among the nuclear Powers that they themselves will not help in spreading nuclear weapons, or control of nuclear weapons, beyond the present limits. The second is the need to convince the non-nuclear Powers, especially those that are most technically advanced, that it is not in their interest, their security or any other interests, to manufacture or develop, or in any other way to acquire, nuclear weapons or control over their use.
Let me first deal with the question of the nuclear Powers. First of all, let me refer to the latest arrivals in the nuclear club, Communist China and France. This point has been referred to in more than one speech this afternoon. So far, regrettably, there is no evidence that the Government of Communist China has any real interest in disarmament or in the control of nuclear weapons. I believe this to be a reflection of one of the major tragedies of the present international debate, the fact that the Government of Communist China, for a
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whole complex of reasons, remains for the moment outside the main stream of international negotiations.
So far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, we believe that this state of affairs should not last for one moment longer than it has to. We believe that the Government of Communist China should be represented in the United Nations and that, as a member of the United Nations, they should take part in the whole range of international negotiations, disarmament included. But I must make it clear—it would be wrong not to do so—that the question of whether Communist China should be invited to take a seat in the United Nations Assembly is only one side of the problem. As I have said already, there is, unfortunately, little evidence at the moment that the Chinese would be seriously interested in such an invitation, even if it were made.
So far as disarmament negotiations are concerned, the Political Committee of the United Nations Assembly is at the moment in the course of discussing a World Disarmament Conference, to which my noble friend Lord Henderson made reference. He asked what was the attitude of the Government to this proposal. The World Disarmament Conference is an idea designed mainly to include China in its membership. I am not very much impressed with the idea of a World Conference as an effective forum for serious negotiation of disarmament issues. You cannot negotiate seriously among 117 countries. But the Government's view is that if a Conference of this sort succeeds in bringing China into contact and discussion with the Americans and the Russians (that is a very important point, because otherwise it would not be very effective), if we can do that, and bring those people round the table together, and be there ourselves, it can hardly fail to do some good. But there are many aspects of this idea of a World Conference which will need a lot more deep thought and careful planning than has been given up to now.
Let me look for a moment at the problem of France. Again for a whole complicated set of political reasons, the Government of France at present take no part in disarmament negotiations.

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Their chair at the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee in Geneva remains empty day after day, and although they are present at the deliberations of the United Nations, they play no active or constructive rôle in the discussions on disarmament. I believe that the absence of China and France from the disarmament negotiations is regrettable and that in many ways disarmament agreements can never really be complete without them. On the other hand, I think it very important to resist the suggestion which is sometimes made, that disarmament negotiations or agreements are useless so long as the French and the Chinese take no part in them. So far as this particular problem of the spread of nuclear weapons is concerned, it would clearly be altogether more satisfactory if all five nuclear Powers were involved.
On the other hand, there is no reason to believe that either the French or the Chinese, any more than the Russians, the Americans or ourselves, have any interest in wanting to transfer nuclear weapons, or the control of them, to any other country, and for that reason I am convinced that the absence of China or France, although regrettable, is not a limiting factor. But we should leave the way open for them to join our negotiations at any time they may wish to do so and to accede to any agreements that we may reach. But I believe that we should be wrong and irresponsible to relax our efforts simply because, for the moment, they do not feel inclined to do so.
The immediate problem, so far as the nuclear Powers are concerned, is to reach agreement among the three nuclear Powers that are engaged in the negotiations—the United States, the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom. It seems self-evident to me that none of these three countries has any more interest in the spread of nuclear weapons than has France or China. In fact, I believe that there is a very real community of interest between the Soviet Union and the West to halt the spread of nuclear weapons by whatever means they can devise. What then prevents them from reaching agreement?
I believe that the answer to this question, my Lords, has emerged quite clearly from the discussions that we have had in New York and in Geneva over the
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past six months. There was a time, until the summer of this year, when the obstacle appeared to be the general sense of crisis in the world and particularly the struggle going on in Vietnam. The Soviet Union repeatedly protested that there could be no serious disarmament negotiations between them and the West so long as the war in Vietnam continued. But at Geneva in the summer, Mr. Tsarapkin, the chief Russian disarmament negotiator, answered a question at a Press conference by saying that the war in Vietnam was no longer an insuperable obstacle to an agreement to prevent the further spread of nuclear weapons.
Russian negotiators now say that the only obstacle that is left in the way is that presented by the plans that are being discussed within the Western Alliance for the sharing of nuclear responsibilities. They point to the American plan for an M.L.F., a Multilateral Nuclear Force of ships to be built and manned and controlled jointly by the countries of the Western Alliance, and the British plan for an A.N.F., an Atlantic Nuclear Force, which was put forward by the British Government as an alternative to the American plan. The Soviet Union say that they see no difference between these two plans and maintain vigorous opposition to both of them.
In particular (and here, as has been suggested already to-day, I believe is the heart of the problem), they constantly and inflexibly press their opposition to any participation by the Federal Republic of Germany in the nuclear arrangements of the Alliance—to what they call "access by Western Germany to nuclear weapons". This is their slogan. So far, as much as I and my American colleagues have argued, they have refused to accept our proposition, that the British proposals for an Atlantic Nuclear Force already contain full and effective safeguards against the transfer of the control of nuclear weapons.
I think it is important here, partly because of the way in which this subject has come to be discussed in the world in recent days, to make quite clear the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to this problem. Our policy contains two parallel and, to my mind, compatible elements. In the first place, we are determined not to embark on any action which involves dissemination—that is to

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say, which involves the transfer of the control of nuclear weapons to any country which does not at present possess it. At the same time, we are resolved to maintain and to contribute to the strength and the cohesion of the Western Alliance, which in our view—and in this I agree wholeheartedly with what the noble Earl opposite has said—is an indispensable basis for effective disarmament negotiations. How, then, are we to ensure an effective and appropriate rôle for the Federal Republic within the Atlantic Alliance and at the same time move forward towards arms control and disarmament agreements with the Soviet Union?
The first and obvious fact, of course, is that we cannot, and will not, allow countries outside the Western Alliance, and especially those hostile to it, to dictate, for their own purposes, the development of strategic arrangements within the Alliance. But I must make it clear that this does not mean that we cannot discuss these arrangements with the Soviet Union. Indeed, we can, and must, explain our arrangements to them, if we are to persuade them that our plans are compatible with preventing the spread of nuclear weapons.
But, of course, before we can explain our arrangements to the Soviet Union, or anyone else, in the course of disarmament negotiations, we must decide within the Western Alliance exactly what our own arrangements are going to be. The noble Earl asked what is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government towards these arrangements. Perhaps I might take this opportunity to say as clearly as I can what that attitude is. It springs, in the first instance, from our view of the Western Alliance as an alliance of free nations. Within it there are, of course, nuclear Powers and non-nuclear Powers. But there are no first-class or second-class States. Every member of the alliance has a right to expect that its voice shall be heard in matters that vitally affect its security.
Some of the non-nuclear members of the Alliance feel that, as their security depends in the final analysis on the strength of the nuclear Powers, they themselves should have some influence on how and when nuclear weapons would be used if they were ever used at all. We recognise the strength of this
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view and the validity of the arguments which lie behind it. It is no good telling them to relax and leave it to us: we must do something to resolve their legitimate doubts and remove their very real fears. It was for this reason that the idea of the multilateral nuclear force was born. In the form originally suggested by the United States, the M.L.F. was to have been a fleet of missile ships jointly owned and manned by the countries of the Alliance. Her Majesty's Government never really thought this to be an ideal solution and they never really agreed to it.
Our own proposal—the Atlantic Nuclear Force, or A.N.F.—proposed, roughly speaking, to bring existing nuclear forces under joint alliance control. This proposal is still being discussed within the Alliance. It is now also being suggested that there may be other approaches to the problem, for example, by improving the consultative and planning machinery of the Alliance. The view of Her Majesty's Government is that, in the first place, whatever arrangements are eventually agreed should be agreed quickly, so that constant and endless discussion in NATO does not disrupt the Alliance and, at the same time, make disarmament negotiations more difficult. In the second place—and this is important—when looking at proposals for new alliance arrangements, we should ask ourselves two clear questions. First, does the proposal substantially improve the strength and cohesion of the alliance? Secondly, does it make agreements on disarmament, and especially on a non-proliferation treaty, more difficult to achieve?
I think that your Lordships would agree that there would be little to be said for any proposal that conferred little or no advantage on the Alliance, but which at the same time stood in the way of agreements on preventing the spread of nuclear weapons. Our A.N.F. proposals, in fact, contain specific clauses designed to forbid any transfer of control of nuclear weapons. And, whatever the arrangements proposed for the future, I must say again now, as I said at the Geneva Disarmament Conference in my last speech there in September, that Her Majesty's Government are resolved never to take part in any

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arrangement that would place the control of nuclear weapons in the hands of any non-nuclear Power.
It was, indeed, over this vital matter of control, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has said, that the British draft treaty on non-dissemination, which I took with me to Geneva last summer, failed eventually to see the light of day. And perhaps I may explain in a few words how that occurred. Our interpretation of non-dissemination was, as it is now, strict, and our treaty as it was drafted would have prevented any possibility that there could ever be a non-nuclear Power, or a group of non-nuclear Powers, in Europe or anywhere else, that could control the use of nuclear weapons without the positive consent of one of the existing nuclear Powers. Sonic of our allies were unwilling to support us on this issue, and your Lordships may have seen that when the Western draft was finally tabled by the United States, while I gave it general support in Geneva, I expressed reservations on this issue on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. That is the reason why the British draft treaty never saw the light of day, and that is the reason why we certainly could not have co-sponsored the one that did. But we must not be too proprietorial about these things. What matters is not who drafted or tabled the treaty, but that a constructive draft treaty was tabled and became the basis for serious negotiations.
What, then, is the position now, after the negotiations in Geneva and the debate in New York? Shortly before the discussions in New York began, the Soviet Government tabled their own draft treaty to be considered alongside that of the West. After the comprehensive debate I have already referred to, the United Nations Political Committee adopted without dissent a resolution which will form a valuable basis for the next phase of negotiations.
I might refer, in passing, to a question which was raised about the wording of part of this resolution, in which we were enjoined to conclude a treaty as soon as possible containing no loopholes, and fears were expressed that this was a form of compromise that would lead to endless argument when we returned to
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Geneva. I think this need not be the case. The resolution was one which has at least enabled us to return to Geneva and to discuss this matter in an expert body of seventeen nations, which I believe to be the correct forum for this sort of discussion. I believe, too, that the resolution that was adopted will give us a good start to get on with these negotiations. We shall not, of course, waste time before we go back to Geneva. We shall be spending a great deal of our time closing the position and discussing it with the Soviet Union and the United States, and I very much hope that when we get back to Geneva any fears about long, futile arguments will be ill-founded. I think that what we have to do now is to close this gap and bring together the American and the Russian draft treaties; and I believe that, with patience and care, we can do so. I hope I may be forgiven for saying that. I hope your Lordships will agree that in bringing this matter to the point of serious, hard negotiations between the Soviet Union and the West, Her Majesty's Government can justifiably claim a modest part of the credit.
So far I have spoken only of the need for agreement among the nuclear Powers. As I suggested earlier, a problem of even greater complexity is how we persuade non-nuclear Powers—especially those with advanced standard, of technology and highly developed pre-occupations with status or security—to undertake voluntarily to deny themselves the option of developing nuclear weapons. There is, of course, no simple or single answer to this. Each of the countries that has the capacity to make nuclear weapons is under pressures peculiar to its own position.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, asked me specifically about guarantees or assurances to non-nuclear States. Some of the latter say that before they will sign a non-dissemination agreement their security must be given collective assurances by the nuclear Powers. That is easy enough to say, but it poses problems of fearful complexity. Who, in the first place, is to give the assurances? Can we, for example, expect the Soviet Union to join with the West in assuring India against attack by China? I do not know, but I suspect it would present some very difficult problems for the Russians. And if the West alone proposed to support

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India, would this be acceptable to the Indians in terms of their known policy of non-alignment? And then there is the even more complicated problem of what our assurances would mean. Are they designed to prevent nuclear attack only? If so, they seem to face only the most unlikely contingency. Are they then to prevent attack by conventional forces? If so, how? By the threat of massive nuclear retaliation? Or would it involve the stationing of foreign troops or weapons on Indian soil?
My Lords, I pose these questions here not, I fear, to answer them, but merely to give some idea that the reassuring concept of underpinning the security of a country that is not bound to you by a formal military alliance is no simple matter. But, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in another place, if non-nuclear countries want these assurances, we must try to find some way of providing them. But let us not persuade ourselves that it will be easy. In any case, as I have said, some countries do not want these assurances—their concept of neutrality would not include them.
What else is there that can be offered as an incentive to persuade countries not to acquire nuclear weapons? A great deal has been said—in Geneva and in New York, and indeed in your Lordships' House—about the need for the nuclear Powers to show an example by, I think it has been put, dismantling the nuclear club. Some say that the nuclear Powers should, as an earnest of their intentions, conclude a comprehensive test ban treaty—that is to say, a treaty which would extend the Moscow Treaty of 1963 to forbid the testing of weapons underground. There is no doubt that this would be an important measure of disarmament in its own right, apart from its effect on the non-proliferation issue. But I fear for the moment there seem to be insuperable obstacles in the way. Before the West will agree to such a treaty, there would have to be provision for a small number of inspections; that is to say, inspection teams would actually be exchanged between the countries concerned. These need not be particularly intrusive, but the West demands them in pursuance of the principle of disarmament agreements in order to make reason-
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ably sure that no cheating takes place. The Soviet Union says that such inspection is unnecessary—that national means of detection and identifying underground nuclear explosions, by which they mean the use of scientific instruments like the seismograph, are entirely adequate for locating and identifying all underground events such as earthquakes or nuclear tests. They quite unequivocally refuse to allow inspection teams on their soil, and so far they have refused, too, I regret to say, to exchange with us scientific information about detection methods.
But our own British scientists have been engaged for some time on a seismic research programme to examine the possibilities of a new detection system that might help to break this deadlock. Using electronic data processing and a new system of detection arrays our scientists have set up experimental establishments here in the United Kingdom and in other parts of the Commonwealth. It has become apparent that there are prospects of a real advance in the detection and location of underground events and that an underground test ban might, in the future, be monitored with a relatively small number of detection stations. We are now in the phase of studying specific explosions and earthquakes, using these large arrays; and it remains to be seen to what extent our researches will reduce the need for on-site inspection. I need hardly add, I think, but I will, that British scientists are willing to share their knowledge with any other country in the world if it will help to bring a ban on underground tests any nearer. It was with this in mind that at Geneva in September I welcomed on behalf of Her Majesty's Government a proposal, referred to by my noble friend Lord Henderson, by the Swedish Government for international co-operation in a sort of "detection club" that would correlate and interpret the data from seismic stations all over the world.
Before leaving this subject, it might be useful to your Lordships if I said a word about this idea of what is called a seismic threshold. This is the theory that you might be able to have a ban on underground tests without inspection if you confine the ban to events or explosions above a certain seismic magnitude. The seismic magnitude proposed by the United Arab Republic, who brought this matter

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up in Geneva, was 4·75. I will not try to explain what that means. It is simply a unit on a scale of seismic measurement. I think it would be dangerous to think that there is too much scientific accuracy about this concept. If I simply say that it is possible, by certain techniques, to produce that seismic reaction on the scale by an explosion of 5 kilo-tons underground in certain geological structures, and of 50 kilo-tons underground in other geological structures, you will see, I think, without further explanation, that a 4·75 threshold is not a matter of great scientific exactitude. I say we must not dismiss the proposal, because it must obviously he considered very closely and seriously, but I point out that this is not quite such an attractive idea as it may appear to be on the surface.
There are critics of the nuclear Powers, of course, who go even further than a nuclear test ban, and demand that we should make a start now in nuclear disarmament. Although I believe it would be wrong, quite wrong, to make nuclear disarmament by the nuclear Powers a precondition of a treaty to ban the spread of nuclear weapons, I must confess that I have a great deal of sympathy for this general point of view. I believe, as I have said before, that the security, both of the East and of the West, could be assured with levels of nuclear weapons lower that the enormous armouries which now exist. Already, indeed, the United States has made two important proposals in this direction. In January of last year President Johnson suggested a "freeze"; that is to say, a halt to all production of the means of delivering nuclear weapons. At the United Nations General Assembly this year, the United States has further proposed—and I think this has not received nearly as much publicity as it deserves—an agreement to destroy a number of nuclear warheads, provided that the Soviet Union will do so as well, and to transfer the fissionable material in those warheads to peaceful uses. So far the Soviet Union has shown little enthusiasm for either of these proposals.
I think I might here say in passing that I often wish some of my countrymen who heap constant criticism on the United States would study the record of disarmament negotiations over the last ten years. I think they would be surprised at the way in which our American allies have
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gone on, year after year, trying to get agreement in arms control and disarmament, without very much encouragement from the other side. I should like here, in passing, to refer to something that my noble friend Lord Soper said in his speech. I regret that he is not here, but I think I should say this for the Record. He suggested, I believe, that Mr. Khrushchev was the only man who had proposed a plan of general and complete disarmament under international inspection. This is not factually correct. An American plan also exists, and is on the table at Geneva. I should like, but it is not possible, to follow my noble friend Lord Soper a little more closely in his arguments about Cuba; but I must leave that to another time.
I believe, like my noble friend Lord Henderson, that the West must aim to go even further than these proposals I have just mentioned. We ought to try to come to an agreement, the West with the Soviet Union, as soon as possible, to begin to destroy some of the bombers and missiles that now exist in thousands all over the world. We cannot, as my noble friend has said, expect the non-nuclear Powers of the world to remain contentedly outside the magic circle, while inside the nuclear Powers go on with their own private arms race. After all, when these weapons are used—and they will be one day, unless we come to our senses—it is not only the nuclear Powers who are going to suffer.
I have dealt so far with what I believe to be the most urgent and immediate problems that face us—the spread of nuclear weapons, underground testing, and the constantly growing armouries of the nuclear Powers. There are, of course, many other paths towards disarmament that we must constantly follow and explore. We must encourage steps towards the effective international control of atomic energy establishments. There is a body designed for that purpose. We shall all follow with great interest the efforts that are being made to establish nuclear-free zones in Latin America and Africa; although these efforts, of course, are primarily a matter for the countries concerned. We shall still seek ways of bringing under effective control the international traffic in arms, and, of course, we shall, I am glad to say, give the assurance that we shall continue to give

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our full and wholehearted support to the United Nations as the central and indispensable peace-keeping agency in an armed, fearful and divided world.
There is one complex of disarmament problems to which I have not so far referred. There are a number of proposals, usually associated with the Polish statesmen Gomulka and Rapacki, for various forms of denuclearisation, disengagement or demilitarisation of Central Europe. This problem was mentioned in the pre-Election manifesto of the Party before it came into power last year. It is in fact—I think I can claim this—the only part of the disarmament section of the manifesto in which, during the past year, there have been no real initiatives, no new proposals, and indeed no progress. I have no intention of trying to avoid this issue, because I know that a great many people, a great number of them supporters of the Government's disarmament policies, are anxious to know whether our policy in this matter has changed. One of the cardinal principles of an effective disarmament process, as the noble Earl opposite has very cogently pointed out, is that it must not disturb the military balance in the world until the disarmament process is complete. At no time must one side find itself in a position of marked superiority over the other. The dangers of this are too obvious to need elaboration. All the proposals that I have seen and examined for arms control or denuclearised zones in Central Europe contain a very real danger that the military balance would be seriously upset so long as they are considered outside the context of the political problems of the area. If we could take them together with some of the political problems—Berlin, divided Germany, and so on—then they might present important disarmament possibilities. As soon as Her Majesty's Government see a suitable climate for following up these possibilities we shall do so with all our resources.
Finally, I should like to underline one important fact about all the steps in arms control and disarmament that I have mentioned to-day. I believe, of course, that they are important in themselves. Each small, patient success, however insignificant it may appear to the impatient onlooker, helps to reduce tension, to dis-
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pel mistrust and suspicion, and to create a climate for further and perhaps more ambitious success. But all these things must be, in the long run, steps towards the final goal of comprehensive disarmament under international control. I can assure your Lordships' House, and specifically my noble friend Lord Henderson, that this is the final aim of Her Majesty's Government, and I am glad to say it is the aim of most of the Governments of civilised countries in the world.
But we shall not, as I suggested at the beginning of my speech, achieve that aim this year or next year, and perhaps not in the lives of many of us. But I believe that, if we are ever to achieve it, we must be prepared to go on patiently, calmly and persistently in this back-breaking and often frustrating task of negotiating for small successes. We have to build, stone by stone, a foundation on which a peaceful world can eventually be built. Here, I must refer again, briefly, to a point in the most interesting and sincere speech of the noble Lord, Lord Soper. I shall not, of course, argue in detail the concept of the just war; nor shall I attempt here to argue the concept of absolute pacifism. I will content myself with saying here that, whatever may be the moral position, we should not deceive ourselves on any political terms that any major unilateral disarmament by this country would have much effect on a similar process in the rest of the world.
What then, my Lords, are our immediate prospects? I have set out the main lines of the disarmament policy of Her Majesty's Government—general and complete disarmament as the final and long-term aim; the urgent problems, the spread of nuclear weapons; a comprehensive ban on nuclear tests and a beginning of nuclear disarmament; and, at the same time, constant examination of the problems of nuclear-free zones; collective guarantees for non-nuclear Powers; control of atomic energy and the international traffic in arms—all this within the framework of our contribution to a strong, prosperous and effective United Nations.
What are our chances of success? I believe, my Lords, that they may be, in the months ahead, as great as they have ever been. As I said earlier, there are signs of a change in the attitude of the Soviet Union. The noble Lord, Lord

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Caccia, made some interesting comments and asked some very pertinent questions about this matter, I recall in the worst days of the cold war a British diplomat (not the noble Lord, Lord Caccia) saying to me—I was in the Army at the time—"Negotiating with the Russians is like operating a slot machine. You put your money in and sometimes what comes out is what you want. If it is not what you want, it is sometimes effective to shake the machine, or kick it, but it is no use talking to it." The noble Lord, Lord Caccia, in a more restrained and elegant way was advancing a somewhat similar view of the nature of Soviet diplomacy, and if I may take issue with such a distinguished diplomatist I believe, unless I am mistaken, that this is no longer the case. It is always worth talking to the Russians, even if there is no prospect of agreement.
When Mr. Khrushchev decided in the summer of 1963 that he could accept a nuclear test ban treaty we were able to move quickly to its signature. And the reasons why we were able to move quickly was that for long, sometimes seemingly sterile, months the delegation at Geneva had gone over the ground again and again; so we knew what to do when the opportunity came. It is very difficult, at the present time, to tell how much the Russians want to reach further agreements with the West, and whether they will insist on attaching conditions they know the West will not and cannot accept. As your Lordships will know, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is shortly to visit Moscow, and I hope that when he comes back to London in a week or so we shall be a little clearer as to exactly what Soviet attitudes are.
But I believe that if the West as a whole is prepared, as Her Majesty's Government are, to react firmly but flexibly; and if the Soviet Union and the West are prepared to shake off old prejudices and to re-examine old assumptions about where the threats to our security lie, we shall be able to make some real progress in the months ahead. Too often, I be-live, in the past there has been a distorting mirror effect in the Soviet and Western estimates of each other—there have been distortions by both sides of the realities of each others' aims and atti-
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tudes. These have tended to be cumulative and self-confirming, so that in the end each has begun to behave as it thinks the other expects it to. There are signs that we may be starting to see things more clearly. But I believe, my Lords, that we must be on our guard against one grave danger. We must not, if we succeed in breaking, at long last, out of the paralysing grip of one cold war, allow ourselves to be drawn into another. That is why, as I have said, we must, as soon as we can, bring Communist China into the whole complex of international negotiations—especially those on disarmament.
My Lords, I apologise for having kept the House so long. It is so rarely that I have the privilege and the pleasure of taking part in your Lordships' debates that I fear I may have trespassed on your courtesy and patience. I hope, however, that I have given you an idea of the way in which the Government hope to move forward in a serious attempt to bring about effective international agreements on disarmament. But success or failure of course does not rest with us alone. Much depends upon what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, called the political will of the two great super-Powers of the world, and on their desire and determination to find a common interest in the sort of agreements that will lead to a solution to some of the political problems that divide the world.
Much will depend upon the exchanges and visits and discussions of the next few weeks—in NATO, in Washington, in London and in Moscow. Many of the answers may have become clearer when the Disarmament Conference meets again in Geneva—probably early in the New Year. I very much hope that when I next address your Lordships' House it will be with news of real progress. I fear, my Lords, that time is not on our side, but as that great man, Pandit Nehru, said nearly twenty years ago—and I think it is interesting and significant that this remark was made by an Indian:
"One of the most terrible of the conflicts that distort and corrupt our lives is that between nuclear weapons and the human spirit. I have no doubt in my mind that ultimately in this conflict that is confronting the world the human spirit will prevail over the atom bomb."
7.26 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I think that everybody here will agree with me that we have listened to a very remarkable speech, which has combined an exposition of British disarmament policy with a survey of the recent disarmament discussions and indications of the likely prospects in the coming conference.
I have one regret, and I look at the Leader of the House when I say this; I think our debate started far too late. One of the saddest things about this discussion is the paucity of attendance of noble Lords to listen to the speech just made by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. We do not often have the opportunity of listening to the Minister for Disarmament, and when we do have a debate I think it is essential that more noble Lords should listen to the speech and the progress report given by the Minister. I must confess I am very disappointed that the Minister has not had a far bigger audience, and I think it is partly due to the fact that we were too late in starting the debate. If we had started an hour, or an hour and a half, earlier than we did, the Minister would have started his speech before 6 o'clock and more noble Lords would have been present. I make my protest in public to the Leader of the House. I think he is the best person to make it to, and I hope my noble friend the Minister for Disarmament will not have a further experience of this sort.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, may I intervene for one moment? I made some apologies earlier to the noble Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, for one thing or another, and I am willing to make them to the noble Lord, but I never thought he would force me to my knees.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, my noble friend has misunderstood. The apology is not due to me but to my noble friend the Minister. I wish to say one further thing. I am most grateful to all those noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, which has been a good one. We are indebted to the Minister for a most unusual and informative speech. Having said that, and having drawn an apology from the Leader of the House, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

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