Sitting of 16 March 1965

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  COVENT GARDEN MARKET BILL (By Order)
    MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
    Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  POST OFFICE

    Paper and Envelopes (Metric System)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that many firms in this country are now moving over to the use of metric Continental sizes for paper and envelopes; and whether, in view of the saving which could be achieved by the Post Office if there were greater uniformity in this field, he will take steps to encourage such change.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn): The answer to the first part of the Question is yes; the Post Office itself gave a lead in 1959 by introducing international sizes of paper for its general correspondence. As to the second part of the Question, I am currently considering how we can encourage the use of a standard range of envelope sizes lending itself to high-speed mechanical sorting.
    Mr. Gresham Cook: Would the Postmaster-General bear in mind the amount of trade we are doing with Europe—E.F.T.A. and the E.E.C.? Is he aware also that the Federation of
    1042
    British Industries has come out in favour of metric sizes generally, and that if we induced this efficiency it might even help the right hon. Gentleman not to put up the cost of postage?
    Mr. Benn: This was one of the first things about which I asked when I came to the Post Office. As the hon. Member says, the international implications are very important. In addition, there is the possibility, which he did not mention, that this might stimulate the export of British stationery.
    Mr. Mawby: Will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that he continues consultations with those engaged in the trade to allow them the necessary time to make any change?
    Mr. Benn: Yes, certainly, Sir.

    Sorting Office, Yardley
    Mr. Ioan L. Evansasked the Postmaster-General when it is proposed to replace the existing Post Office sorting office at Yardley.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Joseph Slater): It is hoped that a new sorting office will be available by 1970.
    Mr. Evans: How are the negotiations proceeding? Does my hon. Friend realise that Post Office workers at this office are working under extreme difficulties?
    Mr. Slater: It is intended to move the public office, if satisfactory arrangements can be made for accommodation, to a new shopping centre now being developed. Negotiations with the developers are in progress, and, if these are successful, the new public office should be in service by 1967, and the enlargement of the district office which would follow should be completed by 1969 or 1970.

    Pornographic Literature
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Postmaster-General what steps he will take to curb the sending of pornographic literature through the post.
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilsonasked the Postmaster-General how many complaints have been made to him regarding the sending of pornographic literature through the post since he took office.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: With permission I will answer this Question and Question No. 38 together.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do I understand that my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General has excluded Question No. 44 from this reply? It is on the same subject.
    Mr. Speaker: I understand that the Assistant Postmaster-General is answering Question No. 38 with Question No. 11.
    Mr. Slater: It is an offence to send indecent or obscene matter through the post; and any such matter coming under notice is stopped. The literature relating to the "Penthouse" magazine, to which many hon. Members have drawn my right hon. Friend's attention, was ruled by a court on 5th March to contravene Section 11 of the Post Office Act, and I do not therefore expect any more of it to be posted. My right hon. Friend has received about 250 complaints concerning pornographic literature in the post.
    Mr. Mills: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's reply, but will he bear in mind the concern on both sides of the House about this problem, bearing in mind that most of us do not want to see our young people corrupted? Will he watch the position very carefully in future?
    Mr. Slater: Yes, Sir. But I must inform the House that my right hon. Friend has no power to search out and to open packets to find out whether or not they contain indecent or obscene matter, and I do not think that the House would wish him to have powers to exercise this form of censorship. There is nothing to stop people who receive such matter through the post from taking action themselves or through the police.
    Mr. Wilson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the very great offence caused by the "Penthouse" advertisements being sent to a very large number of responsible and respectable people? If similar matters are drawn to his attention, is he able to take any action or is it up to the public to deal with it direct with the police?
    Mr. Slater: If we are faced with a situation like the one the hon. Gentleman
    1044
    has referred to, the information is immediately passed on to the Director of Public Prosecutions. This was done in the "Penthouse" case, when action was taken and a decision given.
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Is my hon. Friend aware that opinions differ about what is or is not pornographic but that there is the more general issue of advertising which for one reason or another is not allowed on other media but which goes through the post? What is the Department's attitude to that?
    Mr. Slater: I think that my hon. Friend must wait until I answer his Question No. 44.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Why did it take so long to jump on the organisers of the "Penthouse" advertising? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I, and other hon. Gentlemen, sent this advertisement to Ministers in December but that a prosecution was not lodged until March? Is it not possible for the Post Office to issue summonses as soon as hon. Members send information to Ministers?
    Mr. Slater: I think that I have made clear the position of the Postmaster-General with regard to literature of this nature. On many occasions we are not aware that such stuff is going through the post. It is only when some of these packages happen to break open that we are able to discover any such material.
    Mr. Hogg: Is not the result of the "Penthouse" prosecution evidence that the law is effective and is working rather well?
    Mr. Slater: Yes, Sir.

    Postal Service, Exeter-London
    Sir Rolf Dudley Williamsasked the Postmaster-General what action he is proposing to take to improve the postal service between Exeter and London, having regard to the complaints that have been made both to him and the head postmaster in Exeter.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: I very much regret delay which has occurred in the post between Exeter and London. The main cause has been shortage of staff in some of our London offices. We are doing all we can to recruit additional staff; and

    1045
    meanwhile to keep delays to a minimum. I am glad to say that the service now is generally better than when the hon. Gentleman wrote to my right hon. Friend in November and December last.
    Sir Rolf Dudley Williams: I accept the hon. Gentleman's statement, but will he bear in mind that those dealing with export orders are concerned about this complaint and that it is very important that he should do all in his power to ensure that the service is of the highest possible standard?
    Mr. Slater: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I am very much alive to the fact that an efficient postal service is vital to the well-being of industry and of the community at large. We are doing all we can to overcome staff shortages, but the recruitment of additional staff is not easy.
    Mr. Randall: Would not my hon. Friend agree that a pay increase to the postmen, which I know is being urgently considered by the Postmaster-General, would substantially ease the problem of recruitment?
    Mr. Slater: The postmen were given a provisional increase in pay last July and it was back-dated to the previous 1st January. A special research group is now carrying out a survey into the pay of postmen and I think that until this is completed it would be wrong for me to say anything more.

    Continental Mail (Deliveries)
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the delays that have taken place in recent months in respect of the delivery of letters from the Continent; and what action he is taking to improve this situation.
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the harm done to the export drive by the late delivery of letters from the Continent; and what action he is taking to speed up the delivery of mail from the Continent.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: I am sorry that, during the earlier part of the winter, there was some delay in the delivery of letters from Europe. There has been an improvement lately which my right hon. Friend hopes to maintain. If either of
    1046
    the hon. Gentlemen has experience of recent delays and will let me have details we shall gladly look into the matter.
    Mr. Walker: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been delays of between seven and 10 days in some of these letters and that an examination of the postmarks tends to show that there is a build-up towards the end of the week in London, which is then released over the weekend? Will he see whether there is any unnecessary build-up towards the weekend?
    Mr. Slater: We are prepared to look at anything which will improve the service. In general, mail from Germany has not been more liable to delay than from any other European countries. There is no reason why letters from Germany in particular should not be dealt with as expeditiously as those from other countries.
    Mr. Gilmour: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is general concern amongst those who have to communicate with Europe and that, among other bodies, the Foreign Press Association has received a number of complaints about it?
    Mr. Slater: Yes, Sir. Last autumn, there was considerable delay to mail from the Continent, mainly due to staff shortages. Recently there have been material improvements in delivery times generally, but there are some places where staffing difficulties are still being experienced.
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Is this not yet another example of the failure of a nationalised industry, which is providing worse service at increased cost? Can the hon. Gentleman answer that?
    Mr. Slater: I am surprised to hear that supplementary question from the hon. Gentleman in view of his long period of service in the House and the number of answers to Questions during that period given by Ministers of this Department.

    Post Office Savings Bank (Glasgow Site)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Postmaster-General when he will be in a position to commence discussions with the Corporation of Glasgow regarding the choice of a site for the new headquarters for the Post Office Savings Bank.
    Mr. Carmichaelasked the Postmaster-General (1) when he intends to commence discussions with the City Corporation on the siting of the Post Office Savings Bank in Glasgow;
    (2) when he intends to announce the site of the Post Office Savings Bank in Glasgow.
    Mr. Buchanasked the Postmaster-General what discussions he has now had with the local authority on the siting of the Post Office Savings Bank in Glasgow.
    Dr. Millerasked the Postmaster-General if he will now state the proposed location in Glasgow for the new headquarters of the Post Office Savings Bank.
    Mr. Benn: With permission I will answer Question No. 17 together with Questions Nos. 74, 75, 76 and 77.
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. Would my right hon. Friend consider taking Question No. 43 with these as well?
    Mr. Speaker: There is no point of order for me. The Minister can decide for himself. I cannot do it for him.
    Mr. Benn: My officials have begun talks with the Glasgow Corporation, and also with staff representatives, regarding the choice of an office site. There are several possibilities and they need careful consideration. I hope that a decision can be reached within a couple of months.
    Mr. Taylor: Would the right hon. Gentleman accept my congratulations as a Glasgow Member on the fact that from all accounts he has conducted these delicate and difficult negotiations with a skill and tact which we on this side of the House have not come to expect from members of Her Majesty's present Government? I appreciate that he cannot say anything more at this stage, but in general will he say whether he is satisfied with the progress made and with the co-operation he has received from other parties?
    Mr. Benn: There are three points. One is the relations with the Glasgow officials, who have been extremely helpful. Staff representatives have been to see 10 possible sites and today there is a meeting between staff representatives and my officials on that subject. On the other side are the enormous human problems involved in a move of this kind. I have
    1048
    tried as best I can to make this my own personal concern in order to avert the possibility of any compulsory transfers. It will inevitably take some time, but I think that we can say that we are making some progress.
    Mr. Carmichael: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Glasgow Members expected that there would be a good relationship between the Government and the local authority on this matter? Is he aware that there is some disquiet about the suggestion that the transfer may be spread over as much as 10 years? While I appreciate what he has said about the personal issue, may I ask whether 10 years is in any way likely to be the sort of time required for the transfer?
    Mr. Benn: I appreciate my hon. Friend's interest. However, it is not only the human problem. There are technical problems involved in moving the Savings Bank on to computers at the same time as it makes a physical move to Glasgow. We are hoping that with temporary buildings we shall be able next year to establish a small nucleus in Glasgow and within four or five years after that, when a site for a major building has been acquired, to operate on a bigger scale. It may be that 10 years for the whole change will be necessary.
    Dr. Miller: Now that proceedings have safely reached their present stage, would my right hon. Friend agree that one of the sites which would prove admirable for the project in Glasgow would be a development area in the central part of the city? Does he agree that the whole project should now proceed with the minimum of delay?
    Mr. Benn: I understand my hon. Friend's concern, but it would be wise to leave the staff representatives to negotiate this with our officials and to consider the alternatives offered by the Glasgow Corporation.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that since the policy of dispersing Government jobs from London commenced, more than 30,000 transfers to various parts of England have taken place? Is he aware that in Scotland we hope that the smoothness which distinguished those will distinguish the Post Office transfer?
    Mr. Benn: I appreciate what my hon, Friend said. One of the delightful things about this exercise has been the very warm welcome which, we know, awaits the Savings Bank in Glasgow.
    Mr. Ramsden: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to keep in close touch with his colleagues, especially the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, about this situation so that if and when the Bank's work is reorganised from Harrogate to Glasgow, possible alternative Government work will be available in Harrogate?
    Mr. Benn: We recognise the special needs of those working in Harrogate and we are taking them into account.

    Inland Letter Rate
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Postmaster General what he estimates would be the yield in a full year from raising the 3d post to 4d.
    Mr. Benn: An increase in the inland letter rate from 3d. to 4d. would yield between £20 million and£25 million in a full year, depending on the adjustments made in the weight steps.
    Mr. Digby: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he told me on 23rd November that the 3d. post was already making a profit of £4,500,000? Is it not therefore clear from the figures he has just given that any further increase would not be justified? When will he finally make up his mind that he will not increase the rate from 3d. to 4d.?
    Mr. Benn: There is another Question on the Order Paper, from the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), about future policy. I have answered this Question.
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Is not any further rise in the price of postage yet another example of the failure of nationalization—worse service at increased cost?
    Mr. Benn: Compared with the 1½d. letter in 1939 a first-class letter would now cost 5d. if the cost compared with the increase in prices generally.

    Staff Shortages
    Mr. Gowerasked the Postmaster-General if he will give particulars of
    1050
    manpower shortages and of the grades in his Department which are affected in England and in Wales, respectively.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: Recruitment to basic grades employed in the Post Office is generally on a local basis and the position varies from town to town. In London and parts of the Midlands and Home Counties, where there is a general shortage of labour, there are shortages of postmen, telephonists, and technicians. In London there are also shortages of counter staff, overseas telegraph operators, typists and machine operators.
    There are no serious manpower shortages in the Post Office in Wales.
    Mr. Gower: In view of what he has said, can the hon. Gentleman say whether he considers that staff shortages are the chief reason why I have received complaints from several parts of my constituency about very late postal deliveries and suggestions that postal deliveries in many villages in my constituency are now later than ever before? Can he explain this marked deterioration in the service of the Post Office?
    Mr. Slater: If the hon. Gentleman has been inundated with complaints, as he suggests, perhaps he will let me have them and I will have them investigated. However, I must repeat that my information is that there is no staff shortage in Wales itself.

    Surface Mail (Australia and New Zealand)
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Postmaster-General if he will take action to cut the time taken for surface mail to reach Australia and New Zealand.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: Yes, as far as possible. But the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the time taken by overseas mail to reach its destination is far from being wholly within my right hon. Friend's control.
    Mr. Ridley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, although the sea journey takes only about four weeks, the delivery of mail now takes 11 or 12 weeks and that last Christmas it took three months for the Christmas mail to be delivered? Will he have another look at this matter to see whether he can find a way of improving the service?
    Mr. Slater: Yes, Sir. Perhaps it would be as well if I were to give the House some of the main causes for the type of delay to which the hon. Gentleman draws attention. The main causes which have led to deterioration in the quality of the sea mail services are, first, progressive reduction in the availability of fast passenger liners necessitating greater use of slower and more unreliable cargo vessels; secondly, longer intervals between sailings; thirdly, delays in the docks in this country and, to a lesser extent, delay on British Railways causing mail to miss scheduled outlets; fourthly, delay in clearance of mail from the ships and ports on arrival in a distant country, which shows that all the trouble is not at this end but at the other end as well; and, fifthly, occasional delays to ships en route owing to mechanical troubles.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Broadcasting Policy (Review)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Postmaster-General what is Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the extension of commercial television and radio services.
    Mr. Rowlandasked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for the introduction of a fourth television channel.
    Mr. Freesonasked the Postmaster-General (1) whether it is his intention to allocate a fourth television channel to commercial television companies;
    (2) whether he will undertake not to authorise a fourth television channel.
    Mr. Benceasked the Postmaster-General if he will make a statement on the steps he is now taking to expand radio and television services, either commercial or non-commercial.
    Mr. Chatawayasked the Postmaster-General (1) what is Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the extension of commercial television and radio services;
    (2) what are his plans for a fourth television channel.
    Mr. Ioan L. Evansasked the Postmaster-General if he will consider allocating the fourth channel to a public authority similar to the British Broadcast-
    1052
    ing Corporation with the same right to send advertisements as that given to independent television.
    Mr. Benn: The Government are reviewing broadcasting policy in a variety of its aspects. The question whether further services of television and sound radio should be authorised, and if so, how they would be constituted, organised and financed, is one of the issues under examination. This review will inevitably take a considerable time to complete. The Government will announce their conclusions as soon as they have reached them.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend give any indication of when the result will be announced? Is he aware, for instance, that the educational problems which have been left to the present Government are incapable of short-term solution unless and until we use the radio and television media to this end? Will my right hon. Friend bear that very much in mind when he is allocating new television or radio channels.
    Mr. Benn: Yes, Sir. The need to find space for educational broadcasting is one of the reasons why the review will take some time.
    Mr. Bence: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the decline in the sale and distribution of the Radio Times, which gives information about radio news and services? Will he give a general direction to improve the standard and quality of the Radio Times so that it gives more information and has the widest circulation in order that people may have greater knowledge of what is done by radio and television?
    Mr. Benn: My hon. Friend is raising a rather wider question. I am aware of this fact but it goes beyond the scope of this Question.
    Mr. Freeson: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is very questionable whether there is need for an additional channel to be provided in any case? There is far greater need, as has been indicated by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), for putting the resources of the country which at present are being developed in this field to much greater and better use in education, the hospital service and in

    1053
    technical advance generally without unnecessarily introducing further programmes of the kind we have at present until such time at least as the present services have been improved and we have been provided with these other things adequately.
    Mr. Benn: Obviously the demand made upon our national resources by television programmes is one of the factors which we have to take into consideration.
    Mr. Evans: When examining the question of a possible fourth channel, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the recommendations of the Pilkington Committee, which was set up by the previous Government, and ensure that the new channel, even should it be allowed to present commercial advertisements, is publicly owned?
    Mr. Benn: All suggestions, including that one, will be welcome.
    Captain Orr: The right hon. Gentleman says that the review will take some time. Does he expect to make an announcement this Session?
    Mr. Benn: I cannot say when a statement will be made. If it is to be a thorough-going review, I am sure that the House will not want it to be hurried beyond the capacity to settle these matters properly.
    Sir F. Bennett: Will the review to which the Postmaster-General has referred take within its terms of reference the question of local radio sound services?
    Mr. Benn: Yes, Sir; and there are several other Questions on this subject which are coming up shortly.

    Television Reception, Bideford Area
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory television reception in the Bideford area; and whether he will take the necessary action to improve the situation.
    Mr. Joseph Slater: Yes, Sir. The B.B.C. tells me that its new low-power station at Barnstaple, which it hopes to complete at the beginning of next year, will improve reception in the Bideford area.
    Mr. Mills: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is the I.T.A. Westward transmitters which are at fault here, and in this area we do not always want to look at T.W.W. and Welsh programmes? Will he note also that there is not much point in starting a fourth channel until we can see the existing channels in all parts of the country?
    Mr. Slater: The station at Barnstaple has been delayed because of the problem of finding a site from which to pick up a reliable signal either from the North Hessary Tor or from Wenvoe. A site has now been found from which a reliable signal can be picked up. Planning approval has been obtained, but completion of the station will not be possible before the beginning of next year.

    Reception
    Mr. Kitsonasked the Postmaster-General if he will ensure that, before further money is allocated for the development of British Broadcasting Corporation television channels, a reasonable standard of reception will be provided to existing licence holders.
    Mr. Benn: On an overall appraisal, an acceptable standard of reception is already generally available to the 99 per cent. of the population within the coverage of B.B.C. 1.
    Mr. Kitson: Is the Postmaster-General aware that the only time when we can see television in parts of Swaledale and Wensleydale is when it is foggy? Can he explain why this is? Further, as the B.B.C. has surveyed the area and agreed that it is necessary to put a booster station there, will he urge the Corporation to get on with the work?
    Mr. Benn: The B.B.C., at my suggestion, is considering another stage in its process of extension of coverage, and it is aware of the problems in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. But increased Continental interference and the effect of hills, apart from fog, for which I am not responsible, has made reception difficult.
    Mr. Kitsonasked the Postmaster-General if he will introduce legislation to enable him, in those areas where television and radio reception is below a reasonable standard, to reduce the price of television and radio licences.
    Mr. Buchananasked the Postmaster-General if, after consulting the television and radio authorities, he will ensure that licence holders are guaranteed a satisfactory standard of reception, and that, where such reception is not possible, a suitable deduction is made in the licence fee.
    Mr. Benn: No, Sir. It would be impracticable to vary licence fees according to reception conditions which may vary not only from place to place, but also from time to time.
    Mr. Kitson: Will the right hon. Gentleman urge the B.B.C. not to spend a lot of money on B.B.C. 2 until we have the necessary booster stations? In the sparsely populated areas, where there is no other type of entertainment, it is essential to have reasonable television reception.
    Mr. Benn: B.B.C. coverage of over 99 per cent. of the population is, at this stage, as much as is practicable. Beyond this, even the latest stages of development involve£10 per viewer for transmitter costs alone as compared with Is. per viewer for the more populous areas. It would not be altogether fair to hold up the development of B.B.C. 2, which right hon. Gentlemen opposite announced, until these very difficult and, in some cases, almost intractable problems in the isolated areas can be dealt with.
    Mr. Buchanan: My right hon. Friend will be aware that the building of multistorey flats has aggravated the problem of poor reception. In my constituency, for instance, tenants in Carron Street Heights, a block of multi-storey flats constructed by the Scottish Special Housing Association, far from having any relief have to pay an extra£3 18s. a year for sharing a communal aerial in order to ensure fair reception. Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this is unfair, and will he look into the question?
    Mr. Benn: If my hon. Friend has a particular point of that kind, perhaps he will write to me about it.
    Mr. Kitson: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Russell Johnstonasked the Postmaster-General whether he will make
    1056
    a statement on the degree of priority which the Post Office intends to give to the improvement or introduction of television and radio services to those areas which at present either have very poor reception or none.
    Mr. Benn: The extension of the coverage attained by, and the improvement of the reception of, the broadcasting services is a matter for the broadcasting authorities in the first place. On 22nd December I announced that I had approved Stage 4 of the B.B.C.'s plan to this end, and that the Corporation was now—at my suggestion—considering a further stage.
    Mr. Johnston: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the B.B.C. is actively considering Stage 5? Can he give an assurance that he will co-operate with it in coming to a decision about this as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Benn: Certainly. As I mentioned in answer to an earlier Question, the cost of transmitters alone is£10 per viewer on Stage 4 and this will rise progressively with later stages. But it is a matter of concern.

    Controversial Issues (Impartiality)
    Mr. Hopkinsasked the Postmaster General if he will give a direction, under Section 14 (4) of the Licence and Agreement, to the British Broadcasting Corporation not to send broadcasts in which matters under controversy are presented in such a way as to allow only one side of the argument to be heard.
    Mr. Danceasked the Postmaster-General if he will introduce legislation to require the television authorities to consult representatives of interested industries with a view to avoiding biased presentation in programmes concerning those industries.
    Mr. Benn: The B.B.C. governors and members of the I.T.A. have a duty to deal impartially with controversial issues.
    Mr. Hopkins: Is the Postmaster-General aware that at Question Time on 19th January the Chancellor of the Exchequer made various remarks critical of building societies and of the Building Societies Association and that a report of these proceedings was given in three separate news items later that day?

    1057
    Although the Building Societies Association has made a reply to the points raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, no reference was made to this by the B.B.C. In the circumstances, will the Postmaster-General look into the matter?
    Mr. Benn: With great respect, it would be difficult and wrong for a political Minister to consider the balance of news items put out by either the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. These authorities try, over a period of time—it cannot always be done in every broadcast—to balance different views, but they are bound to take into account newsworthiness on any particular day. In comparison with the difficulties which do arise from time to time, the difficulties of political interference in an issue of this kind would be infinitely greater.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I accept much of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but will he agree that the very fact that this matter has been aired in the House will get back to the B.B.C. and may have some effect?
    Mr. Benn: Certainly, Sir. Every letter written to me by an hon. Member dealing with matters of this kind is conveyed by me without comment to the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. The boards of governors of the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. have told me that they make a regular practice of studying Questions in the House, and there are other ways open to hon. Members directly, to bring these matters forward.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Will my right hon. Friend take into account that all these impartial chairman are on the Conservative side and it would not be a bad thing if the balance were rectified a bit?

    Local Sound Broadcasting
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Postmaster-General whether he will take steps to authorise the setting up of a local broadcasting station in the County of Norfolk.
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Postmaster-General whether he will take measures to see that the City of Worcester is provided with a local broadcasting station.
    Mr. Priorasked the Postmaster-General whether he will take steps to
    1058
    authorise the setting up of a local broadcasting station in Norfolk or Suffolk.
    Mr. Miscampbellasked the Postmaster-General whether he will take measures to authorise the setting up of a local broadcasting station in Blackpool.
    Mr. Bostonasked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for setting up local broadcasting stations; and whether he will now authorise the British Broadcasting Corporation to establish local sound radio stations.
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Postmaster-General whether his plans for local broadcasting in the Greater Manchester area envisage the setting up of a broadcasting station to be run by the local authorities and Manchester University.
    Mr. Benn: As I said in Answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Francis Noel-Baker) on 5th March, the Governent are considering the general question whether local sound broadcasting should be introduced into the United Kingdom. Until this general question has been decided it will not be possible to evaluate the claims of particular localities.
    Mr. Gilmour: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the continuous success of Radio Caroline has already provided abundant evidence of public demand for independent radio services—independent of the B.B.C. monopoly—and that any delay in granting a licence for such stations would be both retrograde and dogmatic?
    Mr. Benn: As the hon. Gentleman knows, these pirates are interfering with or stealing wavelengths with reception on the Continent. They are a danger to shipping—we have evidence of that. They are also stealing copyrights of all records they broadcast and stealing the work of those who have made the records and the legitimate business claims of those who manufacture them.
    We are considering local broadcasting, particularly in the context of educational development in radio. The hon. Gentleman's own Government, in their White Paper, said that local broadcasting should not have high priority for our national resources.
    Mr. Walker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in Worcester, commentaries on county cricket and football matches are already given to all local hospitals? Is it not ridiculous that one should have to go into hospital to hear a commentary on a local cricket match?
    Mr. Benn: I should like to examine that service but I imagine that it is by closed circuit and not broadcast.
    Mr. Boston: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the fact that he and the Government are considering this matter will give considerable satisfaction? However, in view of the prevarication on this matter, especially by the last Administration, is he aware that it ought not to be left in the air, as it were? Will he give a further undertaking that any consideration of local sound broadcasting will be given to the B.B.C.? Will he give an assurance that there will be no commercial side? Can he give any indication of how long the review will take?
    Mr. Benn: There are all sorts of possibilities and it would be wrong to anticipate the findings of the review.
    Mr. Paget: In view of what my right hon. Friend has said about Radio Caroline, does he intend to do anything about it? Why cannot he tow her in and then have an Act of Indemnity, if necessary?
    Mr. Benn: As my hon. and learned, and gallant Friend knows, the Government have recently signed a convention about Radio Caroline, and so on, at the Council of Europe, and legislation is in preparation.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any instances of the danger to shipping which he has mentioned?
    Mr. Benn: I will write to the hon. and learned Gentleman and give them to him, or give them to the House if a Question is put down.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the need to proceed as quickly as possible in this matter and to have special regard to the claims of local authorities and universities and to exclude those who are interested in local broadcasting only for the purpose of private profit seeking?
    Mr. Benn: As my hon. Friend knows very well, broadcasting policy is a minefield of special interests. There are all sorts of people, like universities, who hitherto to have not had the chance to show what they can do.
    Sir P. Rawlinson: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will look at this matter perfectly fairly from every point of view in order to provide the best choice possible for the people who listen to the radio?
    Mr. Benn: We certainly shall be and are ready to receive suggestions from all quarters. May I congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his maiden appearance at the Box? I think that he is the third shadow Postmaster-General since the election.

    Cigarette Advertisements
    Mr. Kershawasked the Postmaster-General what further consideration he has given to prohibiting cigarette advertisements on independent television; and if he will consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the financial implications of such a step.
    Mr. Benn: As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Francis Noel-Baker) on 2nd March, cigarette advertising on television is to stop on the 1st August of this year. In reaching this decision the Government naturally took into account all the relevant implications.
    Mr. Kershaw: Under what powers was the decision made? Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to leave the powers as they are or to extend them to include other forms of advertising?
    Mr. Benn: The powers under which this direction was given were conferred by the Television Act. As the House knows, the advertising of quite a number of things is prohibited under this Act—for example, moneylenders, matrimonial agencies, fortune tellers, undertakers, betting, the visual presentation of doctors, dentists, midwives and nurses, and cures for alcoholism, baldness and various other products.
    Mr. John Hall: As we understand that the prohibition of the advertising of cigarettes on television is in the interests of the health of the nation, may I ask

    1061
    the right hon. Gentleman whether the advertising of many other things should be prohibited? For example, why does he not prohibit the advertising of sweets and sugar, because sugar is one of the main contributory causes of circulatory disease? Is there not an equal case for prohibiting the advertising of many other things apart from cigarettes?
    Mr. Benn: I suppose that anything, even water, taken to excess, is fatal, but it is undoubtedly true, as the House knows very well, that the link between lung cancer and smoking has been established to the satisfaction of the medical profession, which welcomed this ban. I think teat this ban is well justified by the medical evidence.
    Mr. Speaker: Questions to the Prime Minister.
    Sir C. Osborne: On a point of order. Is it possible for you, Mr. Speaker, to allow the Postmaster-General—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—I am asking a question. Would it be possible, under the rules of order, for you, Mr. Speaker, to allow the Postmaster-General to answer Question No. 35 to which he referred in reply to Question No. 18, saying that he would make a statement later?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate my difficulty. A number of Questions appear on the Order Paper, and we do not get through all of them, I am afraid. It is therefore difficult to make exceptions or invite exceptions to be made.
    Mr. Robert Cooke: Further to that point of order. May we know whether the Postmaster-General has asked your permission, Mr. Speaker, to answer this vital Question at the end of Question Time?
    Mr. Speaker: No, he has not. Let us get on.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Mallaig
    Mr. Russell Johnstonasked the Postmaster-General whether he will include Mallaig in the call area of the Small Isles.
    Mr. Benn: No, Sir. As I have explained to the hon. Member in correspondence, the call charges from the Small Isles are determined on the same principles as call charges elsewhere in the system.
    Mr. Johnston: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the fact that all calls have to go from the Small Isles through Mallaig should be considered, because the cost of calls directly to Mallaig is more expensive than those between the Small Isles? Surely this is illogical and does not take proper account of social factors.
    Mr. Benn: The hon. Gentleman knows that this is a complicated question, because we have corresponded about it and discussed it, and I promised that I would give it sympathetic consideration, which I have done. The cost of calls between Eigg, Muck, Rum and Canna and Mallaig were all reduced in 1958, but the routing of the call cannot be a factor in deciding the charge, for within the telephone system calls sometimes take quite roundabout routes in order to meet the operational needs of the service. I do not think it possible to go beyond the concessions made in 1958, when very substantial reductions were effected.

  STEEL INDUSTRY (NATIONALISATION)
  Sir Knox Cunninghamasked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Minister of State to the Ministry of Power in order to assist the task in Parliament of renationalising steel.
  Mr. Ridleyasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint an additional Parliamentary Secretary in the Ministry of Power to assume special responsibilities for the steel industry.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I would refer hon. Members to the Answer I gave on 25th February to Questions by the hon. Members for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) and Stroud (Mr. Kershaw).
  Sir Knox Cunningham: If the Prime Minister will not appoint a Minister of State or Parliamentary Secretary, would he think of appointing a Minister since

  1063
  the present one seems to have sunk without trace?
  The Prime Minister: With respect, I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is wasting the time of the House when there are many Members wishing to ask more important Questions. This Question was answered fully on 25th February. It has not taken the hon. and learned Gentleman three weeks to think up that particular witticism.
  Mr. Ridley: Can the Prime Minister confirm or deny the rumours going about that he is not to proceed with the nationalisation of steel?
  Mr. Speaker: Not unless he can be shown to be responsible for the rumours.
  Mr. Ridley: May I ask my supplementary question? [HON. MEMBERS: "No".] Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the only way that he will get a majority for the Second Reading is to appoint two extra Parliamentary Secretaries and then he could silence both of his hon. Friends the Members for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) and Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt)?
  Mr. Iain Macleod: Would the Prime Minister answer a simple and non-controversial question on this matter? I know that he is aware that, rightly or wrongly, there has been criticism of the amount of consultation which has taken place. That criticism has come from the House of Commons and from both sides of the steel industry. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the amount of consultation which has taken place is adequate?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is perfectly willing to meet anyone who wishes to be consulted on this question. He has been willing throughout, and if there has not been more consultation it is because it has not been asked for.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: Is the Prime Minister aware that there have been two consultations between the Minister of Power and the leaders of the steel industry? Will he answer my question: does he think that two consultations are enough?
  The Prime Minister: I heard that question last time on 25th February. The right hon. Gentleman has not improved on it. My right hon. Friend has had more consultations and is prepared to have as many as are necessary provided it is not done in a time-wasting sense to hold up the Bill.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. Blakerasked the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government will make new proposals for a comprehensive ban on nuclear weapon tests.
  Mr. Ennalsasked the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government are now ready to propose an agreement to ban all nuclear weapon tests.
  The Prime Minister: Her Majesty's Government attach great importance to the conclusion of a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty. We believe that it need only involve a small number of on-site inspections, and that these need not be intrusive; and we hope that the Soviet Government will agree to negotiate on this basis.
  Mr. Blaker: Is the Prime Minister aware that there will be a general welcome for anything which he can do to promote a comprehensive ban? Until such a ban is concluded, however, will the Government carry out such underground tests as may be necessary to make sure that our nuclear weapons are in good order?
  The Prime Minister: The whole question of the comprehensive ban on nuclear weapon tests has been discussed in the past few days between my noble Friend the Minister of State for Disarmament and the chief of the Nuclear Disarmament Agency of the United States Government.
  Mr. Ennals: May I ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether, in view of the advances in seismological research, it is his view that it is necessary still to have on-site inspections for these tests and whether this is a matter that will be discussed with Mr. Gromyko during his present visit?
  The Prime Minister: The need for this is diminishing because, of course, the

  1065
  powers of seismic investigations are increasing all the time. But I am still advised that it is necessary to have at least some inspections. Perhaps, in course of time, scientific improvement will be such that we do not need inspections, but I am advised that it is still necessary to have some, although, perhaps, not as many as were felt to be necessary before.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Will the Prime Minister answer my hon. Friend's question and say that pending the conclusion of any such comprehensive ban, the normal programme of tests will go on?
  The Prime Minister: So far as this is concerned, I dealt with the whole question of the Atlantic Nuclear Force and I have said that anything that was necessary for our collective independent deterrent would be done. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not want me to go into details of the last test that he carried out.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: May I ask the Prime Minister simply to answer the question—it is simple and straight-forward—that unless and until there is a comprehensive ban on all tests, including underground tests, we can take it that the normal processes of carrying out underground tests will go forward?
  The Prime Minister: I have said that what ever is necessary for the maintenance of our collective deterrent will be carried out. I have said that. But the right hon. Gentleman knows how things were left after the last test.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The Prime Minister ties this test into what he calls a collective deterrent. It may be that he will not be able to give this deterrent away either to a multilateral force or an Atlantic Nuclear Force. What we are asking him is that the testing which is necessary to prove our weapons will go ahead whether there is a multilateral force, an Atlantic Nuclear Force or, indeed, whether the position remains as it is.
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman never answered questions of this kind himself. I do not intend to add more to what I have said.

  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he will consider making periodic and regular statements to Parliament on the progress of the economy.
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friends and I certainly intend to keep Parliament fully informed of the country's economic progress. The Budget will be a suitable occasion in the near future.
  Mr. Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend supplement that information by agreeing to the suggestion in the Question, particularly in view of the fact that we are now beginning to get out of the horrible mess that was left by the previous Administration? If he is not prepared to do that, will he undertake to initiate these all-party or nonparty television programmes with the Leaders of the two Opposition parties in order to present the facts to the people?
  The Prime Minister: I think that the regular flow of information is sufficient for the purposes of the House and of the country. We get the monthly trade figures and, unlike the right hon. Gentleman opposite, we do not go into hysterics on the basis of a single favourable month's trade figure.
  Mr. Maudling: As the recent economic statistics confirm the Prime Minister's own speech on 23rd November, when he proved that the sterling crisis resulted from collapse of confidence in the party opposite and not from the trade position, will he take it that the more statistics like that which he publishes, the better we shall be pleased?
  The Prime Minister: Having had help from both the shadow Home Secretary and now the shadow Foreign Secretary on these questions, I would first inform the right hon. Gentleman, as he can look up for himself, that in November I said nothing of the kind, even though the right hon. Gentleman went on television and completely misrepresented what I said. [Interruption.] The words were carefully checked after he had made that allegation. Therefore, if the rest of the question depends on

  1067
  that misreading of what was said, which must have been quite systematic and deliberate, I have nothing further to say to the right hon. Gentleman.

  NUCLEAR WEAPONS
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether, on visiting President de Gaulle, he will propose a joint declaration to the effect that no part of Germany should participate in any way in the control of nuclear weapons, whether in a French, British, European, Atlantic or multilateral nuclear force.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The control of nuclear weapons within the Atlantic Alliance is a matter for the Alliance as a whole, not for discriminatory bilateral declarations.
  Mr. Zilliacus: In view of the fact that President de Gaulle has already taken a stand on this matter which is exactly in line with the Labour Party's policy before the election as outlined by my right hon. Friend, will not the Prime Minister seize this opportunity to reaffrm that position jointly with President de Gaulle?
  The Prime Minister: I was not aware that the position of President de Gaulle was similar to the position of the Labour Party on nuclear questions. I thought that de Gaullists were found among certain right hon. Gentlemen, but not all right hon. Gentlemen, opposite. As to Germany or any other non-nuclear Power participating in nuclear weapons to the extent of their having any control at all in the firing of those weapons, this was fully dealt with in the debate on 16th and 17th December last in full accordance with the line always taken by this party before and since the election.
  Sir C. Osborne: Will the Prime Minister tell the House how many of his supporters support the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) in demanding that the policy of the Government shall be the same policy as the Labour Party held before the election?
  The Prime Minister: I think that my hon. Friend is nearly as lonely as the hon. Member.

  No. 10, DOWNING STREET
  Mr. Kenneth Lewisasked the Prime Minister what plans he has for redecorating No. 10, Downing Street.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir, apart from such maintenance as may be found necessary.
  Mr. Lewis: Is the Prime Minister aware that it is more than usual when a new tenant comes into a house that he does a certain amount of redecorating, unless he thinks that his tenancy is somewhat insecure? Has the right hon. Gentleman read what was said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) over the weekend that the Prime Minister's lot is a somewhat unhappy one? Does he recognise that if he wants to vacate office, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is very happy, and so is the country, that he should take over at the earliest possible moment?
  The Prime Minister: That was a very involved question. In the carrying out of decorations, I at any rate have to have some regard to the position of the taxpayer, but if it is of any comfort to the hon. Member I would say that there have been some minor decorations and alterations. A door has been put up to make it self-contained, a coat hook has been put up behind the bedroom door, the Tory election posters that were disfiguring my dining room have been taken down and the wall has been cleaned up, but this did not involve any cost to the taxpayer because it was a labour of love.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: Will the Prime Minister tell us whether the new door has been built to include or exclude the Paymaster-General?
  The Prime Minister: It is nice to get a crack out of the right hon. Gentleman that I did not read in last week's Spectator. I heard this question muttered by one of his right hon. Friends about three minutes ago, so, despite his long-range hopes of occupying this place, the question does not really arise.
  Mr. Shinwell: Can my right hon. Friend explain, as a matter of interest, and to provide Members with some information, why the other side should be

  1069
  interested in the decorations at Downing Street? They are not going to occupy it.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. One of the Prime Minister's responsibilities is not to answer what the other side is interested in.
  Mr. Shinwell: Who is to answer?
  Mr. Speaker: I think that we had better stop interior decorating now.

VIETNAM
Mr. Sydney Silvermanasked the Prime Minister what action he proposes to take to promote a peaceful solution in Vietnam in view of the most recent air raids on North Vietnam by United States Forces, which exceed in severity previous raids and penetrate deeper into North Vietnam territory than before, and if he will make a statement.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I indicated last week that urgent diplomatic activity is proceeding with a view to securing a cessation of hostilities. This is continuing.
Mr. Silverman: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this attack by the armed forces of the United States on the armed forces of North Vietnam, deep within Vietnamese territory, goes far beyond the hostilities in earlier days which we were prepared to tolerate? Do not they amount to an act of plain, naked war? Would not my right hon. Friend further agree that it would be difficult to reconcile approval by this country of such an action with U Thant's proposals or with the obligations of this country as co-Chairman of the Committee in charge of implementing the Geneva declarations?
The Prime Minister: I said last week that I felt that in recent weeks the situation in Vietnam had changed, not merely in degree, but in kind, and I said that this was partly because of the now frank admission by North Vietnam that they are involved in this war, and, of course, by the change in the nature of the United States response. These are two facts which have changed the nature of the situation.
In my original Answer I referred to diplomatic activity. My right hon. Friend
1070
the Foreign Secretary is seeing Mr. Gromyko this afternoon, and I think that it would be best left to the two co-Chairmen to see whether they can agree—which, so far, has not been the case—on further action to help bring about what I am sure hon. Members on both sides of the House want to see, and that is a cessation of hostilities.
Mr. Maudling: Arising from the terms of the Question, may I ask whether it is not the fact that the United States action is in response to aggression by North Vietnam deep in South Vietnam territory, and must not the beginnings of a solution of this problem arise from a cessation of this aggression?
The Prime Minister: I dealt with that question last week, and I have nothing to add to what I said then.
Mr. Jackson: Would not the Prime Minister agree that one of the dangers of the American bombings in North Vietnam is that they may provoke the Russians and draw them into a war in South Vietnam, and thereby somewhat retard the progress of reconciliation between the United States and the Soviet Union?
The Prime Minister: Wherever there is warfare being carried on, and where-ever there are military operations going on, there are dangers of escalation. This is a danger on which I think all of us have commented before, and this is why we are urgently seeking to find a means of bringing these hostilities to an end.
Mrs. Kerr: Does the Prime Minister appreciate that a large section of American public opinion would welcome a public statement by this Government dissociating themselves from the attacks on North Vietnam?
Hon. Members: Rubbish.
The Prime Minister: In the past few weeks I have made our position quite clear about the situation in Vietnam. I have said that we are pursuing these matters through diplomatic channels. I am more concerned with getting the right answer than with getting the right declaration.
Mr. Wall: Does not the Prime Minister agree that the danger today comes from guerrilla warfare and the subversion of existing Governments, rather than from

1071
nuclear exchange? Are not the Americans therefore fighting the same war as we might have to face in Malaysia?
The Prime Minister: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not start spreading that argument into other areas. We have dealt with the Malaysian question in the past. None of us would underrate the dangers that we face in that area.
The position in Vietnam is that it was, and is to a considerable extent, a civil war, but for a long time the Government of North Vietnam regarded this as a spontaneous nationalist rising in the South. It is now clear that the North Vietnam Government regard themselves as being in the war, as conducting part of the war, and this has led to a change in the American reaction far beyond what, a few months ago, we felt was appropriate to the then situation.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We cannot debate this without a Question before the House. Sir Alec Douglas-Home.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: We are, of course, following this situation with great anxiety. Will the Prime Minister take it from me that we on this side of the House support him in the action that he has taken so far, and that we think it necessary to support our American allies in this matter?
The Prime Minister: I am well aware that both sides of the House are anxious, in whatever seems the best way, to secure, first, a cessation of hostilities, and then negotiations leading to a peaceful, lasting and effective settlement of this problem. There is no difference in the House on that question, although we may have different ideas on how it should be achieved. I feel that in present circumstances the way in which we are proceeding is the only way.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We must get on with the business of the House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Bowden): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a short business statement.
1072
It is now apparent that interest in the arrangements for dealing with the Committee stage of the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill is such that I would be justified in allotting a full day to it.
It will be taken on Thursday, 18th March, when the business will be:
A debate on the Procedure Motion on the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill.
Motion on the Census Order.
The House will wish to know that consideration of the privilege question Motion relating to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) will be postponed until next week.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend consider starting the proceedings on this Bill at eight o'clock in the morning so that, appropriately, discussions on it will start at the moment when hanging usually starts?
Mr. Bowden: I appreciate the point made by my hon. Friend, but I think that we had better start at 3.30 p.m. on this occasion.
Mr. Shinwell: Do I understand from my right hon. Friend that if the debate is conducted in the fashion that he has indicated it will terminate at ten o'clock?
Mr. Bowden: Yes, Sir. That is the intention, on a Motion to be tabled by the Government.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: I understand the reasons which have compelled my right hon. Friend to propose this change of business, and I therefore make no kind of protest about it, but will he assure the House that we will get an early opportunity of discussing the privilege Motion next week?
Mr. Bowden: I am aware that I promised it for the current week. I promise that it will be taken next week, when it will be allocated two and a half to three hours and will be the first Order of the day.
Mr. Paget: Since, as I understand, it will be out of order to discuss the merits of the Bill on the proposed Motion, and as it is also, as I understand, agreed that it is to be taken on the Floor of the House, what are we to talk about for a whole day?
Mr. Bowden: I think that we had better see the Motion and any Amendments which may be tabled to it.
Mr. Hogg: I am grateful to the Leader of the House for the assurance that he has given to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) about the postponed business, but how can he promise that the time allotted to it will be only two-and-a-half to three hours? The indication that I have received is that quite a number of hon. Members wish to speak on the Motion.
Mr. Bowden: It will be recalled that when I made the business statement on Thursday of last week I said that the privilege Motion would be taken until about seven o'clock. I hope that that will still be the position. I hope that the House will agree that that is a reasonable time. I cannot pledge anyone, but I hope that this will be generally agreeable.
Mr. William Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend clear up the question about the conclusion of the debate next Thursday? In his original statement, did he not say that it would end at eleven o'clock? In his answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) today he said that it would end at ten o'clock. Which is it?
Mr. Bowden: Today's statement replaces the one made on Thursday of last week. I hope that we shall be able to reach a conclusion by ten o'clock, but we shall have to see what Amendments are tabled.

COMPLAINT OF PRIVILEGE
Mr. Speaker: Yesterday, the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) raised with me a complaint of privilege founded upon a leading article in the Eastern Daily Press of last Saturday, which the Clerk read to the House.
I have given very careful consideration indeed to the hon. Member's complaint. In the light of the precedents, and in view of the opinion which I have formed, I had better say as little as possible about the article. It is my view that the article does not, prima facie, constitute a contempt of this House and it does not, prima facie, involve a breach of any of its privileges.
That means that I cannot allow the hon. Member's complaint precedence over the Orders of the Day, but that has no effect on what the House may choose to do in the matter should it be raised as a substantive Motion.
Mr. Fell: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for your careful consideration of this matter. I shall forthwith set down a Motion.

WELSH AFFAIRS
Matter of Mid-Wales Development and Depopulation Problems, being a matter relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire, referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Mr. Bowden.]

MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVING ESTABLISHMENTS
344 p.m.
.Colonel Sir Harwood Harrison (Eye): I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable the Minister of Transport to license establishments which give instruction in driving motor vehicles and to make regulations with respect to a code of driving instruction and the qualifications of instructors.
In view of the ghastly high rate of deaths and maiming on the roads I make no apology for asking the House to devote a few minutes to the subject of road safety. Although, during 1964, much was done to improve road safety, the final figures of deaths were 13 per cent. more than in 1963. The total number was not six or ten times, but more than twelve times the number of hon. Members in the House. It is as though all the Members of the House were killed once a month for all 12 months of the year—a total of 7,820. In addition, eight times as many were seriously injured.
A schoolboy was asked what was the difference between the quick and the dead and he said, "Well, the quick are those who get out of the way in time. The dead are those who don't."
I have concerned myself with the question of road safety and have brought it before the House on a number of occasions. During the last year we have seen the initiation of the Minister's scheme for professional driving instructors to take the Ministry's test. This is having a beneficial effect, but at the moment it is not compulsory, only voluntary. In an honorary capacity I have to declare an interest in this matter, since I have the honour to be President of the Professional Driving Instructors' Federation and, as such, together with its officers, I have had most helpful talks with the Minister and his staff, because we are all activated by the same motives. I am seeking leave to introduce the Bill in order to improve the situation.
We have to face the certain fact today that every boy or girl who reaches the age of 17 is a potential driver of a motor vehicle. It is not the members of one section of our society who are likely to be drivers, or even professional drivers; all are likely to want to drive at some
1076
time in their lives and therefore they want to learn as early as possible, and accordingly look round to see where they can obtain instruction. Many steps have been taken by the House to improve standards. One of them is the learner-driver test. This creates a floor, but no more. A person who passes it has reached a certain driving competence and a certain knowledge of the Highway Code, but the man supervising the test sees his pupil for only a short time.
Although he may have had only a few hours' instruction, the moment that anyone has passed that test he is, under our law at the moment, able to set himself up in business as a driving instructor, or start a school and take pupils—and to take them on the roads. This is an absolute nonsense. There was a case in my own county of a learner-driver who was 82 years old and who had an accident while being supervised by a 78-year-old driver. Because there are not enough schools, members of the public are turning to anyone. The shortage of schools arises from the fact that unqualified people can take others for instruction. The high percentage of failures in the L driver test is due to bad instruction and tuition in the early stages.
I have been into this matter fairly carefully, and I can assure the House that from the word "go", when a boy or girl, man or woman, sits in the driving seat, good instruction is essential. If it is not given, bad habits are formed and are never cured. These lead to accidents. We need a standard system of instruction.
One magistrate has been heard to say that a motor accident, according to witnesses before him, was a head-on collision between two stationary cars parked on their own sides of the road. I am asking that these schools should be licensed now. Only recently the House passed a Bill licensing horse and pony riding establishments. The Bill is in the interests of us all, and seeks to provide safety for us all.
It is conceivable that one of us will leave this House, perhaps some time this week, and be killed or maimed by someone who has never had any proper tuition, or has been badly instructed. I am certain that if we licensed these schools we would have more of them. There are enough competent instructors,

1077
and more would train when they saw that their living would not be undermined by unskilled competition from outside.
Have not we in this House a responsibility for all those who want to learn to drive? Many people will even go to extra classes to learn to drive better, and we have a responsibility to see that the right methods are available to them. If they cannot get into one of the driving schools, or obtain the services of a trained instructor, they are exploited willy-nilly by people who are not really qualified. How is the 17-year-old to tell whether a driving school or an instructor is good or bad unless it has the approval of the Ministry? The Minister has gone so far regarding instructors that I feel that my proposed Bill is the next logical step for him to take.
A car is just as much a lethal weapon as a firearm. If one is maimed or killed, it does not matter by which method. The other day the House gave a Second Reading to a Bill designed to give much greater control over firearms. I ask the House to do the same with an equally lethal weapon—the motor vehicle—and to see that the public have the protection afforded by the right type of driving schools and standards of instruction.
1078
I hope that I may obtain, in due course, a Second Reading for my Bill. I am in no way hidebound about the Clauses in it, except in respect of the main purpose, and I should welcome assistance if the Bill reaches a Committee stage. More and more we know that it is the driver who matters most. He may feel in better health one day than another and may drive better, but at least we want to see that everyone, for his own safety, has been instructed in the proper way.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir H. Harrison, Sir R. Thompson, Mr. Gresham Cooke, Mr. Prior, Mr. Good-hew, Mr. Kenneth Lewis, and Mr. Stainton.

MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVING ESTABLISHMENTS
Bill to enable the Minister of Transport to license establishments which give instruction in driving motor vehicles and to make regulations with respect to a code of driving instruction and the qualifications of instructors, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday 26th March and to be printed. [Bill 100.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  HIGHLAND DEVELOPMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.53 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill provides for the setting up of a Highland Development Board with effective powers to promote the economic and social advance of the Highlands and Islands. It is a Bill related to the special needs of this area, but it is one which is important also in the wider interests of the country as a whole. It is a Bill which, in its general substance and purpose, must commend itself to all hon. Members on either side of the House who are genuinely and wholeheartedly concerned with the welfare and development of the Highlands.
  There is no part of these islands of ours that has merited or received more attention from this House than the Highlands and Islands, not always, I am sorry to say, with the success that the intentions deserved. It is just over 80 years ago since the time when the attention of this country was rivetted on what had been happening in the Highland area, when the Napier Commission reported, out of which came the first Crofter Commission and efforts to stem emigration from the area and to preserve the crofting communities of that time.
  That was followed, years later, in 1897, by the Congested Districts Act and the Congested Districts Board—which, in 1912, was merged within the Department of Agriculture—more or less with the same aim, with greater powers, but not with the money to support those powers. These and other efforts met with some success, but never really succeeded in stemming the depopulation of the Highlands and Islands.
  Since the two world wars there have been continuous efforts, financial and by various other means, to improve matters in this part of the British Isles. We have had the building and improvement of roads and bridges, the provision of water supplies, the improvement of farm buildings, and the drainage and reclamation of the land. Let us be clear that all
  1080
  this was at the expense of the taxpaper. There has been the development of road and steamer transport again with the support of Government grants, but I am bound to say that we have failed to stem the depopulation. A cynic may well say that in this great empty space all we have done by public effort has been to improve the value of the land rather than to improve the prospects of the people upon the land.
  I am sure that the right hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur), who has been gathering information about the money spent in these last years, will agree that last year the amount was about£35 million from the Scottish Office and the Forestry Commission alone. This shows the financial effort which has been made, yet we have to face the fact that the gap is still there. Certainly, for the people who remain life is a bit better than it was, once again as a result of public effort through the Hydro-Electricity Board and what that has been able to achieve, and through Government grants and loans for the improvement of farms and crofting. But we must face the fact that we have still the same pattern of unemployment, of underemployment and of an ageing and declining population. As for the prospects for the children, for every child, a School Leaving Certificate is a visa for the South, and the road past the croft too often has been the road for a one-way traffic out of the Highlands.
  It is regrettable that in this day and age, when we are placing so much emphasis on regional development, we have not faced this problem, which has been present for over 80 years, and used the powers that are in the special Scottish set-up, to experiment and to prove a successful way to do things, which could have been applied to other areas now suffering from exactly the same problems which started in the Highlands 100 years ago. There are the problems of Wales and the Borders. Now, however, we are making a start.
  I think that it has become more and more obvious to everyone who studies the problem that after all the commissions, reports and surveys, and after all the money that has been put into the improvement of agriculture, what really has been needed is an authority with executive powers to deal comprehensively with

  1081
  the problems; not to deal one at a time, but comprehensively. For this reason we have decided to establish the Highland Development Board. It is only right to pay tribute to the people who have tried, with some success—but often with too little success—to improve the lot of the people of the Highlands and Islands.
  The Highland Panel, started in 1947 under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) and continued under Lord Cameron, has done invaluable work. If it goes with the passing of the Bill, part of the build-up of work that it recommended to be done now can be clone by the authority to be created. I think, also, of a former Member of this House—it is regrettable that only a few days ago his death was presumed—Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton, the founder of the Highland Fund.
  There are many people who scoffed at that Highland Fund when it was started, but it has shown, with its success with its limited resources, what can be done. There are other people and other institutions—S.C.I.D.T., the Highland Home Industries, for example—all of which have played their part and shown what can be done. We have cried out for this kind of Bill and this kind of powers. We on this side of the House came to this conclusion a long time ago that what was required was a Highland Development Board with this kind of authority and power, properly backed up, to deal with this problem.
  I can remember, when the first Crofters (Scotland) Act, 1955, was going through the House, that we tried to strengthen it, to give it the power to do this kind of thing. It was quickly seen that the powers, limited as they were to agriculture, did not prove sufficient and we had to come back with yet another Bill. It is interesting to note what the Chairman of the Crofters Commission said in the Commission's Report in 1961. Even there he decided to limit their efforts to land improvement:
  "We would not propose to abandon our efforts to encourage the development of tourism, the fuller exploitation of seaweed resources, the extension of weaving, and the revival and extension of fishing or the exploitation of any industry or resource already established in the Highlands; but even so we would regard them as secondary to land improvement if only because we have no executive power in that field …"
  1082
  Time and time again this has come up, that there has been no executive authority in those respects on which the success, the rehabilitation and the survival of the crofting communities depend. We make no apology for what we are now doing, because we were convinced of this a long time ago.
  Before I come to the detailed provisions of the Bill, there are one or two general points which I should like to make on the subject of powers and of finance. We all have our own ideas as to the best way to develop the Highlands—fuller agricultural use of the land, more forestry, new industries, more tourist development, and so on. We may also differ in our estimates of how far the desirable objectives can be achieved by private enterprise. The mighty private enterprise has had a long run and has signally failed, for the figures of the moneys which the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble)willquote today relate to public money which has been poured in.
  In the crofting counties we have an area of great diversity, constituting about one half of the whole area of Scotland—9 million acres—an area where there is land hunger. I wonder whether hon. Gentlemen opposite realise that we are dealing with 9 million acres. One of the first Acts applying to this problem was something called the Congested Districts Act, because people were ruthlessly driven to areas which were congested, to scratch a living. None of the movements in the Highlands were movements at the will of the native population.
  If there is bitterness in my voice, I can assure the House that there is bitterness in Scotland, too, when we recollect the history of these areas. We have to put this aside, however, to do what we are all now determined must be done to redress history. We have 9 million acres, where 275,000 people live, and we are short of land. Surely, one of the first powers which must be given is a power related to the proper use of the land itself. To my mind, this is basic to any improvement in the Highlands. Anyone who denies the Board powers over land is suggesting that the Board should not function effectively at all. Let us appreciate what we are up against.
  We have plenty of surveys and reports on this. There is the Report of the Hill

  1083
  Lands (North of Scotland) Commission, Command 9759, published in 1956. Paragraph 8 says:
  "As regards specific schemes of development for particular areas our surveys were largely unproductive. This was due not to the absence of land suitable for development, but to the limitations imposed by existing rights of possession and occupation in regard to all land capable of agricultural use in any form."
  Paragraph 12 says:
  "Our survey of privately owned lands revealed considerable possibilities of development, but we found our scope limited by the fact that the decision whether or not to undertake development rests with the occupiers. Generally we found little response to our suggestions."
  In its final recommendations, the Report declared:
  "With capital and progressive management these difficulties could be overcome one way or another, and one view favoured special measures to make the land available to people willing to undertake development."
  This is the purpose of the powers in relation to land which the Board will have.
  We have to tackle the problem on a wide front, and for that reason the new Board will require wide powers—powers to stimulate and assist others and powers to take direct action themselves. If we really want to develop the Highlands we must provide the means. So I make no apology for seeking wide powers for the Board. Without such powers, we could not hope to make the Board an effective instrument for the job which has to be done. We do not intend to supplant existing public authorities, local or central, or to relieve them of their present responsibilities. We do not want to create a dictatorship, nor do we want to dismantle or weaken existing authorities.
  I may say that it was a temptation. We could have taken over all the existing authorities which are at present provided with money through my Departments and I could have had an authority with a tremendous sum of money at its disposal, none of which would have been new money. But in doing that we should have robbed it of the services of people in these other authorities, whose co-operation and participation is vital for the success of the schemes.
  Mr. Ian MacArthur (Perth and East Perthshire): I am sorry to interrupt the
  1084
  Secretary of State at this stage, but I am seeking one piece of information. I understood him to say earlier that the Highland Panel might be disbanded. Could he confirm that that is so?
  Mr. Ross: I shall be dealing with this later on, when I come to the provisions of the Bill. We want to make the work of these other authorities more effective and to be able, through the Board, to supplement their efforts and fill in the gaps.
  The finance of the Board has been troubling many people. I know that there are misgivings and misunderstandings over this, and I should like to deal with them straight away. The Board will have its own financial powers. It will have money to spend and the Bill provides no limit on the amount of its expenditure. I have given in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum our estimate that the Board's expenditure will increase to about£1 million per annum by the financial year 1968–69.
  This is the best estimate which we can make of the rate at which expenditure will build up. This is, of course, new money, additional to the considerable expenditure already being incurred in the Highlands, which is about£33 to£35 million per annum through my Departments and the Forestry Commission.
  I want to assure the House that if this Board is successful and achieves the drive and, ultimately, the success which we want, it should not be through any lack of money as a result of the Bill. We have deliberately not set a limit to the amounts spent by the Board itself. It is our intention that this financial development along the whole front should be maintained, and, where necessary, stepped up. We are looking at the possibilities of increasing forestry. Indeed, we have already done something on these lines and have stopped the decline which has been taking place and which was foreshadowed in a statement by the former Minister of Agriculture. If we are successful here, this means further expenditure on forestry, not by the Board but by the Forestry Commission.
  We have been looking into some aspects of the agricultural grants to

  1085
  crofters and small non-crofting occupiers in the crofting counties, and hon. Members may be interested to know that, as recommended by the Crofters Commission and the Highland Panel, I have decided to include grass—conserved as hay or silage—as an eligible crop grant. Grant for crops other than grass will be at the rate of£5, £8 and£11 per acre, depending on the quality of land, and grant for hay or silage will be at the rate of£2 10s.,£4, and £5 10s. respectively.
  In addition, the limit on the grant for regeneration—at present£11 per acre in the first year—will be raised to£15 per acre. These changes, which will add about£75,000 to the present annual expenditure on crofters grant, will be of special benefit to the outlying crofting areas where grass is the predominant crop.
  I mention this as an example of the constructive approach which we intend to make through existing means of development. This came from the Crofters Commission and from the Highland Panel. By stimulation, exhortation and encouragement arid by appreciation of what is required and what can be done by existing agencies, the Highland Development Board, through me, can greatly increase the amount of work which is done by these other agencies. The additional direct expenditure by the Board in the years immediately ahead is, therefore, not by any means the whole or the end of the story. Nor is it the measure of the impact which we hope to see made by the Board.
  Mr. Michael Noble: Is this new grant for crofters only?
  Mr. Ross: I said not only crofters but for crofters and small non-crofting occupiers in the crofting counties. I am sorry that the right hon. Member was not paying his usual close attention.
  Sir Fitzroy Maclean rose—
  Mr. Ross: We have plenty of time. The hon. Member will have plenty of opportunity to intervene. I know that he is not here very often and that, when he is, he likes to intervene. Perhaps he would like to sit down and wait awhile.
  If we can get a new sense of purpose and drive into Highland development policies—and this, of course, is what we
  1086
  are aiming at—existing appropriations will be spent to better advantage and new expenditures and investments will be made. For instance, any extension of the State forestry programme in the Highlands would mean additional expenditure by the Forestry Commission. Success in bringing in new industries would mean the inflow to the Highlands of fresh capital, whether private or public. As a result of public effort, I hope that we shall also see the flow of private effort and private capital into the Highlands.
  As I have said, the Board must have power to act at its own hand and must have the necessary funds to do so. But it must also seek to inspire and direct a much wider attack on the problems facing the Highlands—an attack in which the co-operation of many organisations and agencies will be needed. Time will show what moneys can properly and profitably be channelled through the Board. But do no let us pretend that all that need be done in the Highlands is to wave a golden wand and all will be well. We have to be realistic about this. The Board will have no easy task. Imagination, patience and persistence will be needed and, above all, co-operation based upon confidence in the aims, powers and personnel of the Board.
  I turn to the Clauses in the Bill. Clause 1 provides for the establishment of the Board and sets out its general functions. The Board will, of course, be concerned with seeking the means of achieving a reasonable standard of living for those working and living in the Highlands. But the Board's overall purpose, as the Clause states, must be to enable the Highlands to play a more effective part in the economic and social development of the nation. It has never been more important than today that all the country's resources should be fully exploited, and the Highlands have much to contribute. This is not a case of giving to the Highlands. This is a case of giving the Highlands a chance to play their full part in the future of Britain.
  The Board will have the general function of preparing, concerting, promoting, assisting and undertaking measures for the economic and social development of the Highlands and Islands. Its field will cover the whole range of economic and social activities in its area. Conditions of living, amenities and welfare generally

  1087
  will be within its remit, as well as economic matters.
  With regard to the composition of the Board, I think there will be general agreement that to be effective an executive body of this kind should be small in number. The Clause accordingly provides that the Board shall consist of a chairman and not more than six other members, who will be paid for their services. I have received a great deal of advice on the question of membership from strange quarters—indeed, from every quarter—and no doubt I shall receive more.
  Frankly, I welcome this advice, and the extent to which I have received it so far leaves me in no doubt about the wide interest which has been taken in the Bill and in the Board. I have taken no decision as to the personnel of the Board, and I can only say at this stage that my aim will be to secure the best members possible for the job. The exact composition of the Board will be determined with this overriding consideration in view.
  Clause 1 also provides that initially the Board's area will comprise the seven crofting counties—Argyll, Caithness, Inverness, Orkney, Ross and Cromarty, Sutherland and Zetland. This is the area traditionally and statutorily regarded as the Highlands and Islands and the area which the Government consider is in most urgent need of attention. We appreciate, however, that other nearby districts share some of the problems and characteristics of the crofting counties, and a case may well emerge for the Board's remit being extended to cover other districts. We have, therefore, made provision for that to be made possible by order. It may well be that some people will want to be "included out". I am looking forward to the Amendment by the right hon. Member for Argyll that Argyll should be left out of the Bill, judging by his initial comments. But I hope that he has got over that original bit of extremism.
  Clause 2 provides that the Secretary of State may give general directions to the Board. It is, of course, the intention that the Board should work within the general context of the Government's plans for Scotland as a whole, and to this end I have already decided that the chair-
  1088
  man of the board should become an additional member of the Scottish Economic Planning Council, which was set up last week. It is also the intention that in carrying out its duties the Board should be kept informed of, and should pay regard to, public opinion in the Highlands and Islands.
  The proposed Consultative Council will take the place of the Highlands Advisory Panel. I should like to take this opportunity of acknowledging the excellent work done by the Panel during the past 18 years.
  The duties of the Board are set out in Clause 3. The Board will have the general duty of keeping under review all matters relating to the economic and social development of their area. Its two main tasks, however, will be, first, to submit to the Secretary of State proposals for the proper development of the area and, secondly, to concert, assist and undertake measures to implement any proposals approved by him.
  In framing its proposals the Board will consult local authorities and other interested bodies, because, naturally, we want the Board to work in harmony and in co-operation with these organisations. Moreover, in considering proposals submitted to him by the Board the Secretary of State will wish to be assured that attention has been paid to the interests of those affected by or involved in the proposals.
  As regards implementation, some of the proposals approved by the Secretary of State may be for the Board itself to put into effect. Other proposals may be of a more comprehensive character, calling for action by local authorities and other bodies, and, it may well be, by the Secretary of State and his Department. The local authorities or other bodies will undertake their part of the development: the Board will undertake any work which does not fall within the responsibilities of the other bodies. Clause 3 also provides that the Board will submit an annual report to the Secretary of State for presentation by him to Parliament.
  Clause 4 empowers the Board to acquire land—by compulsion if necessary—and to manage it.
  As I have already said, land is the basic natural resource of the Highlands and any plan for economic and social

  1089
  development would be meaningless if proper use of the land were not a part of it. This has been brought out very clearly in the Report recently submitted by the Highlands Advisory Panel. The Panel made recommendations about agriculture, forestry, recreation, sport and other uses, recommendations which can only be implemented by the use of the powers which we propose to give the Development Board; and it means that the Board will really have something on which to work.
  There should not be any unnecessary delay in relation to surveys. This area has probably been more surveyed than any other, and we are grateful to the Panel for its authoritative Report. These proposals are based on a highly informed and skilled assessment of the position made by a Panel the membership of which is widely representative—and of which Karl Marx was not a member.
  I should, perhaps, emphasise that this compulsory purchase power is subject to the normal safeguards—the lodging of objections, the holding of inquiries, and so on—and that there is no question of seeking unprecedented powers. Clearly, the Board must have power to acquire land by compulsion if necessary if it is to be effective. This does not mean that the Board will embark on compulsory purchase merely for the sake of compulsion. The favourable reception accorded to the Government's proposals leads me to hope that in the common objective of securing proper development in the Highlands the Board will also secure the general co-operation of landowners in the Highlands.
  But if we are serious about developing the Highlands we must have this essential compulsory power. I do not know why hon. Gentlemen opposite should smile at this. We have had a welcoming statement from landowners in the Highlands about this and I have no reason to doubt their word. We seek and we expect co-operation, but we must be able to deal with obstruction if we get it.
  It is not infrequently the case that the potential development of a place in the Highlands is not realised because of the lack of a particular enterprise or facility—such as a small factory or a motel—and because there is no authority or private undertaker willing or able to
  1090
  undertake it. So Clause 5 gives the Board power to erect buildings, carry out works, provide equipment and services, and it will enable the Board to use its discretion to fill any such gap.
  The Board may also require these powers for other purposes, such as the equipment of agricultural land. The Clause also provides that the Industrial Estates Management Corporation for Scotland may act as agents of the Board. This will enable the Board to avail itself of the Corporation's experience and expertise in the provision and building of factories.
  Clause 6 enables the Board to acquire or set up and carry on any business or undertaking. There is no question of compulsion here. Any acquisition must be by agreement. Nor is this a Clause to nationalise the Highlands. A considerable part of the area is already nationalised, about 1½million acres of it. The Secretary of State is one of the biggest landowners in the Highlands. The purpose of the Clause is to enable the Board to initiate or take over undertakings which it regards as essential but which would not otherwise be started or carried on.
  The Board will, of course, strive to interest and assist others to maintain, introduce and expand industries in the Highlands. It will not seek to become unnecessarily involved itself in running industrial enterprises, but circumstances may from time to time require it to engage in industrial activities, in some cases as an emergency measure. We feel that the necessary powers must be available. The business or undertaking with which the Board may concern itself under Clause 6 need not be of a commercial nature. It may, for example, be something related to tourism; but if something is required, if it must be done and if no one else will do it and everyone in the area recognises that it should be done, the Board will have the power to do it. We must face this fact.
  Clause 7 is, I believe, especially important because it confers on the Board power to provide advisory and other services to persons engaged in or proposing to engage in business in the Highlands. The special difficulties which such enterprises face in the Highlands—for example, remoteness from markets and from sources of raw materials—put

  1091
  a premium on efficiency, management, accountancy, marketing and other related matters.
  Experience, particularly in recent years, has revealed that many Highland commercial enterprises suffer because of weaknesses in these spheres, so the necessary advice and guidance which is not always readily available in the area can now be made available through the Board.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the powers in this Clause include powers relating to the fixing of rents? As I understand, the Industrial Estates Management Corporation has that power in relation to industrial estates. Since I am not completely familiar with the provisions of Section 8 of the Local Employment Act, I would he interested to know whether the Clause under which the Corporation will act in an advisory capacity would extend to the fixing of rents.
  Mr. Ross: The Board will not be working through the Local Employment Act, but through this Bill. We have given wide enough powers to the Board to relate rents to the circumstances of the particular area of the Highlands, but I will be coming to that matter later. As I was saying, the necessary advice and guidance is not alway readily available in this area and it will be made available by the Board, if it considers it to be necessary.
  The Clause empowers the Board to help with or undertake publicity relating to its area or functions. Thus the Board could stimulate publicity relating to the tourist attractions of the Highlands or stage, or participate in staging, exhibitions in industrial areas to advertise the facilities, services and amenities which the Highlands have to offer the incoming industrialist. In this connection, the Board will have a wonderful opportunity because it will have an identifiable area—an area which can be identified even by a piece of tartan. It probably has the finest source of publicity and, to my mind, although Scotland and other parts of the country have not done so well by the Highlands, they certainly use the Highlands for getting publicity for Scotland as a whole.
  1092
  There is also a provision in the Clause enabling the Board to engage in other activities to aid the introduction and development of industry, commerce and other enterprises in the area. This is a general and sweeping-up provision which is essential in case we have left something out. We have made mistakes in the past by sending people out to do things and not giving them the powers they need. This time we are making sure that the power is there. It may be that we err on the other side, but we can depend on the good sense of the Board, in the exercise of these powers, not to be oppressive.
  Clause 8 deals with financial assistance, and the hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) will be interested in this part of the Bill. We propose that the Board should be able to offer assistance by way of grant and loan to persons carrying on, or proposing to carry on, any industrial, commercial or other undertaking or any activity which, in the Board's view, will contribute to the economic or social development of its area.
  The development and expansion of industrial or commercial enterprises in the Highlands is a matter which will clearly concern the Board. A complaint frequently made by Highland applicants is that the criteria necessarily applied by B.O.T.A.C. in assessing projects are not flexible enough to enable full regard to be had to Highland conditions. In this case, the Board will have that flexible power.
  The provision in the Bill is specially designed to overcome this difficulty, but it goes much further and is widely drawn so as to enable the Board to assist projects of whatever kind that give promise of contributing to the economic and social development of the area. This is vital in an area where the range of circumstance, need and opportunity is very wide. Every island has different circumstances. It may be that different criteria will require to be applied. This is not possible under existing legislation, but it will be possible under the Bill.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: Do I understand that B.O.T.A.C. will be replaced entirely?
  Mr. Ross: No. B.O.T.A.C. will still be there, but I will be dealing with that

  1093
  to a greater extent in a later part of my speech.
  We do not want the Board to find itself prevented by a narrow statutory definition from assisting worth-while projects outwith the usual run. The Board will have discretion to give assistance in accordance with arrangements approved by the Secretary of State and the Treasury, and in considering any arrangements which the Board may submit for approval we shall be concerned to ensure that they effectively supplement and dovetail with the Board of Trade and B.O.T.A.C. facilities under the Local Employment Acts, which will continue to be available in the Highlands. It will, of course, be for the Board in the first place to submit proposed arrangements, but for industrial and commercial projects it is envisaged that the assistance would, for example, be not less favourable than that available from the Board of Trade under the Local Employment Acts.
  The arrangements will, moreover, have to be designed to meet the special circumstances of individual cases and the special difficulties of Highland conditions. For projects of a special character, the assistance would, of course, have to be "tailor-made". Crofters will, of course, be eligible to take advantage of the financial assistance offered by the Board, but experience has shown that they are often at a serious disadvantage compared with non-crofters in the matter of security for loans.
  The Clause accordingly provides that the Board may take security over a crofter's permanent improvements when it makes a loan to assist him to erect building or other structures or works on his croft, or to carry on any business or undertaking in connection with his croft. It is hoped that this will be helpful in this particular case.
  Clause 9 gives the Board certain ancillary powers which are, I think, self-explanatory—to make charges, and the like. Powers of entry for the Board are provided in Clause 10. It is essential that the Board, like other statutory bodies, should have powers of entry and it is necessary that they should be drawn to match the range of the Board's functions. If it is essential that we should give powers of entry in relation to the Deer Act, I see no reason why we should
  1094
  not have them in relation to this particular Bill. The other provisions in Clause 10 are all secondary to the main provision, and are well precedented.
  In addition to the power of entry, it is also considered necessary that the Board should have the power to obtain necessary information. This power is included in Clause 11. I would draw attention to the fact that there is no question of giving the Board a general power of inquisition. The Clause relates only to information which the Board may reasonably require for the execution of any of its functions. I have no doubt that the Board will normally get the information it requires without difficulty. But it is possible, for example, that the preparation of a comprehensive scheme of development by the Board might be seriously delayed, if not jeopardised, by the refusal of an individual to provide vital information.
  Again, there is nothing unusual about a provision of this kind. We find it in the Smallholders (Agricultural Holdings) Act applied to this very area; in the Town and Country Planning Acts, the Crofters Acts, the Harbours Act of 1964 and the Industrial Training Act, 1964. So—ancient and modern—there are precedents for this power which, I gather, has caused a little concern to right hon. and hon. Members opposite.
  Clause 12 places restrictions on the disclosure of information obtained under Clauses 10 and 11.
  I do not think that I need make detailed references to the remaining Clauses, which are customary provisions in a Bill of this kind. I would, however, draw attention to Clause 14(2), which deals with the question of planning permission in relation to development by the Board. This provides that where planning permission is required the Secretary of State will consult the planning authority concerned and that any approval which he subsequently grants will carry planning permission with it.
  The two Schedules to the Bill relate respectively to the constitution, procedure and staffing of the Board and to the membership and procedure of the Consultative Council. As will be seen from paragraph 13 of the First Schedule, the Board will employ its own staff.
  Paragraph 12 of the same Schedule provides that the Board shall have an

  1095
  office in the Highlands and Islands. I am sure that there will be general agreement that the Board's headquarters should be in Inverness. On the assumption that the Bill will be given a Second Reading, and that the Financial Resolution will be passed tonight, I would propose to arrange to incur the necessary expenditure on the provision of office accommodation for the Board in advance of the necessary Supplementary Estimate.
  I ask this now because suitable and, I think, attractive accommodation for the Board can be made available at the Cameron Barracks, Inverness, provided that some fairly extensive internal adaptations and improvement works are put in hand forthwith. I am anxious to get this work started so that the offices will be available in time. We must not lose any time at all in this operation.
  Whatever points of detail hon. Members may wish to discuss in Committee, I hope that they will be prepared to give the Bill a general welcome, and an unopposed Second Reading. For 200 years the Highlander has been the man on Scotland's conscience, and for this reason alone the progress of the Bill will be followed in our country with close attention and, perhaps, a degree of impatience. No part of Scotland has been given a shabbier deal by history from the '45 onwards. Too often there has been only one way out of his troubles for the person born in the Highlands—emigration.
  No country can claim happiness if one of its most splendid assets—in this case, its unsurpassed landscape—can only be enjoyed in the dreams of the exiles. It would not be surprising, therefore, to any Scotsman, whatever his political association, to see the avidity with which the first intimations of the provisions of the Bill were seized on in Scotland. "It is high time", most commentators seemed to imply, "that a serious step was taken to redress history in this respect".
  Against this background, I believe that people throughout the whole of Scotland, and not just those of Highland extraction, feel themselves concerned, and personally involved in this Bill. Those who are finally entrusted with duties on tile Board that will be set up may well find themselves involved in a date with history
  1096
  —themselves part of the history of Scotland.
  4.37 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Noble: The whole House is pleased that the Second Reading of the Bill is taking place in this Chamber and not in the Scottish Grand Committee because, as the right hon. Gentleman himself has said, the problem of the Highlands is one for a very much greater audience than the Highlanders themselves. We only have to move through the central belt to find a vast number of people whose ancestry is Highland, and who are as deeply interested in the problem of the Highlands as are those who live there.
  Equally, it is true that those whom one meets in England, in Wales, in America—in all parts of the world—who have had the opportunity of spending some of their leisure time in the Highlands—an area of great grandeur of scenery—feel that the Highlands may well be in the future one of the few remaining places in this country where space and leisure can go together.
  The right hon. Gentleman has said—I think quite fairly—that over the last 100 years there have been enormous numbers of reports and a great deal of thought about the Highland problems. He added that some successes have been achieved. I can believe that had he been on this side of the House he would not have been as generous even as to say that. Although the Highland Survey which I set up has not yet reported, it is true that the basic problems of the Highlands are well enough known. The right hon. Gentleman referred to depopulation which, as he said, has been going on for 100 years, or more. It is right that the House should realise that only in the last few years have there been one or two cases where it looks as though this steady depopulation is being arrested. The first one is in Caithness, where the great establishment at Dounreay, which we set up in 1954, seems to have created the sort of conditions that make it possible for the population to expand and grow.
  The year before last we set up a similar operation at Fort William. I believe that this will have a similar but probably more widespread effect than the Dounreay establishment, because in this case

  1097
  the employment will not be all in and around Fort William, but will go right out through the glens wherever timber is grown.
  Another aspect, which anybody who is acquainted with the Highland problem will have noticed, is that in the large burghs in the Highlands there is much less depopulation than there is in the rural areas. In Kirkwall and Lerwick, in the constituency of the Leader of the Liberal Party, or in Inverness, there is a population which is, if not increasing, at any rate growing a great deal through the infiltration of people from outlying areas to those burghs.
  The second big problem which has faced the Highlands for a number of years is that in that area there has been for a considerable length of time under-use of certain of our resources.
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. George Willis): Hear, hear.
  Mr. Noble: The Minister of State says "Hear, hear", but he must face the fact, as must anybody who lives in the Highlands, that much of this is due to the fact that developing the resources there has in the past often been extremely uneconomic. I will return to this point later.
  Of our natural resources I suppose that land is the one that is the most important. In the case of agriculture, we have seen in the last few years a considerable increase in the amount of reseeding which has been done. Credit should be given to some of the crofters' schemes. I was sorry to have to interrupt the Secretary of State, but I was not certain of his point about the grassland. This is the sort of good use of a natural resource which has been stimulated by Government action in the past.
  I think that the House agreed that the considerable extra sums of money which we gave under the Winter Keep Scheme were likely to achieve some results in relation to agricultural land. The plain fact of the matter is—nobody in the House should shirk this—that agriculture today is becoming more efficient and is tending to use many fewer men to produce more food than it did in the past. As agriculture becomes more efficient, this inevitably throws a strain on the problem of depopulation.
  1098
  The attitude of the Government to agricultural development in the Highlands can be judged satisfactorily only when we see year after year the facts that come out from the Price Review. It is on this that Highlands farmers can judge their chances of success or failure.
  The second use of land in the Highland areas tends to be forestry. Hon. Members opposite have in the past, I think rightly, spoken a good deal about the importance of the Forestry Commission to the Highland development plans. The right hon. Gentleman referred, I thought, to some intended cut-back of forestry in the Highlands. I can merely say that I was totally unaware of this in the Highland area.
  Mr. Willis: I will deal with that later.
  Mr. Noble: The point I would make to hon. Members opposite, because it is an extremely important point and one which is accepted by everyone who has studied the problem, is that if the best use is to be made of land it should be through the proper and careful integration of trees and farming. The best examples of this are to be seen all over Scotland, not only in the Highlands, in some of the best run private estates. I believe that this is the model on which we should fashion our ideas.
  Then there are other natural resources of varying sorts in the Highlands. There is mining and quarrying. The quarries which produce road metal have been having a fairly good time because a great deal of work has been available for them. However, there are other minerals which can be quarried and some of them are still being successfully quarried. In my own constituency there is a sandpit or sand mine—a hole in the ground—at Lochaline, which was developed because of a particular problem before the war, which has been kept going by private enterprise, and which has employed many people and brought valuable population to that local area of Argyll. At present, there is some boring going on at Strontian, opening up again the old mines which were believed to have been worked out. People hope that this will be successful and will in itself employ perhaps 20 or 30 people in a small area.
  Then we have a useful natural resource in the form of our fishing. Over the last

  1099
  few years I suppose the biggest single improvement in the return to the fishermen round our coast has come from the much greater development of the shell fish industry, which has had quite a startling success. I believe and hope—I hope that the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) will agree with me—that the closing of the Minch to foreign trawlers will itself bring some help to our fishing industry.
  Apart from these things, there is a considerable opportunity, and all the evidence goes to show that it is there, to have an entirely new type of fishing industry developed, particularly in the West Highlands, in fish farming. A great deal of experimental work is now being carried on and I know that many places on the West Coast are being very carefully studied to see whether this is not a new industry which could bring profit and employment to areas which previously have had little chance of that sort of development.
  Then the natural resource which people recognise fairly easily is water. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the Highlands are making, or, I hope, will make, an enormous contribution to the whole success of the development of central Scotland by providing the water from Loch Lomond for use elsewhere.
  I am not certain that the last one could be called a natural resource. The point I should like quickly to make on this is the potentiality in the Highlands for developing the tourist industry. As I see it, the future of Britain is almost certain to provide a great deal more leisure than many of us knew in the 1930s. This being so, I believe that we should take a great deal of care at this particular moment of time to ensure that we use our resources in the Highlands as best we can to cater, not only for the coach parties, not only for the private tourists in their motor cars, but also for the hikers, the climbers, the yachtsmen and the fishermen, whether they want to fish in fresh water or in salt water. The problem of how to fit them in satisfactorily with the Highland scene is one which, at the moment, is being very carefully studied by the Duke of Edinburgh's study team, which, I believe, is to report in the autumn.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that some successes have been achieved. I
  1100
  turn for a few minutes to look at the problem as I see it. The State's main contribution to Highland development over the last 20 or 30 years has been through the Hydro-Electric Board and the Forestry Commission. Both bodies have had great successes. There is no doubt that the Hydro-Electric Board's ability to provide light and power up the Highland glens has been a very powerful factor in keeping the population there, as has the Forestry Commission though many of us who have watched the operation of the Forestry Commission since the 1930s have realised that, perhaps unguided by the Minister of State, its use of the natural resource of land in the past was probably the worst in Scotland.
  I believe that this can be improved and developed, and that the Forestry Commission itself is now aware of the enormous waste of land that took place in the early plantations up to the end of the war. But the State is not always a perfect landlord. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State, who is now the landlord of 1¼ million acres, may have the same feeling as I have if he goes round his estates. Nor is the State a perfect landlord in other respects. My experience is that some of the State-Management districts are some of the worst from the point of view of tourist facilities. Nevertheless, the State has contributed a lot, but industry has contributed a great deal more than the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to admit.
  In my constituency and in Inverness the aluminium works which have been going for 50 years have created whole towns. The establishment of the pulp mill was not due to the State. It was due to the initiative of the paper company which wanted to go there. It is perfectly true that this could not have been done without loans from the State.
  Mr. Ross: Or without the Forestry Commission.
  Mr. Noble: Or private interprise, because I know that the right hon. Gentleman would like to ignore the fact that 50 per cent. of all timber produced in Scotland at the moment comes from private forests.
  These things are possible only by a proper combination of private enterprise

  1101
  and State help, and we must not overdo either. The textile industry, which employs a great many people in many parts of the Highlands, the whisky industry, which has the biggest distillery ever built in Scotland, at Invergordon, and a great many small industries and new hotels have all in the last few years created new employment and opportunities for people in the Highland area.
  These industries have come and are being successful on the basis, as the right hon. Gentleman said, of confidence. Therefore, whatever we do in the Bill it is extremely important that we do not remove the confidence of industry, otherwise we shall not have its cooperation. Although the right hon. Gentleman may not agree with me, I do not believe that industry set up by the State, whether to run hotels, pulp mills, or other things, are likely to be successful from the point of view of either employment or the taxpayers' money.
  The right hon. Gentleman also, perhaps deliberately and, I thought, very unworthily, entirely failed to mention that in the Highland area a great deal of improvement and development over the last 50 years has been done by the landowners themselves. I know perfectly well, and anybody who knows the Highlands can go round different areas and pick them out, that one or two have perhaps not done what they should have done, or have done things they definitely should not have done. But 90 per cent. of the landlords in the Highlands have been good landlords, and of the remaining 10 per cent. the great majority fail in some of their duties only because they have not the necessary capital to develop as they would have wanted to do.
  I know many people not too far away from me who have not only spent money on developing forests and farms, but who have put in ski-lifts and provided hotels and other tourist facilities in order to bring more money into the area as a whole. The right hon. Gentleman also failed to consider the fact that the owner-occupiers of farms, and there are now a great number of them in Scotland, have themselves played a considerable part in development and in holding the population in the area.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that all this money is public money. It is not,
  1102
  and he knows that perfectly well. Whether under the hill farming Acts or under the special Act to bring help to the pulp mill, the bulk of the money—50 per cent. in the case of the hill farming schemes—comes from the farmers or the landlords. I suspect that Wiggins Teape is backing its great project with, at the end of the day, a great deal more than 50 per cent. of the money. Therefore, it is not accurate to say that all the money that is coming to the Highlands is public money. The right hon. Gentleman will find if he reads his speech that he said that it was.
  There are things in the Bill which anybody who has any knowledge of the Highlands can agree with, for example, the first four lines of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, which say that:
  "The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the further development of the Islands and Highlands of Scotland to enable that area to play a more effective part in the economic and social development of the nation."
  Nobody would quarrel with that, nor is it anything particularly new. I personally particularly welcome Clause 7 and will say a little more about it later.
  There are, however, many Clauses, particularly those dealing with powers, which I personally dislike and which, in Committee, this side of the House will do all it possibly can to improve. Clause 2 gives all the power not to the Highland Development Board, but to the Secretary of State. This is not what the Highlands expected, and it is certainly not what the right hon. Gentleman told the House. All through his speech he laid stress on the great powers of the Board, but strictly, according to the Bill, the Board probably has less power than any other board set up at any time. If we look, as we should, at the combination of powers in Clauses 4, 6 and 11—
  Mr. A. Woodburn: Has the right hon. Gentleman any experience of any Government establishing a hoard to spend public money without retaining the Government's right to control it?
  Mr. Noble: There is always the right of the Government to control it, but if the right hon. Gentleman listens to my points and to other speeches he will see that in this case there is the most unusual combination of circumstances.
  Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Gentleman objecting to the powers of the Secretary of State, or is he agreeing that he should have them? Does he want the Board to have powers or the Secretary of State?
  Mr. Noble: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make my speech, he will find that these are exactly the points which I shall be developing and he will get his answer.
  To return to the combination of powers in Clauses 4, 6 and 11, I agree with the Secretary of State that it is perfectly right and natural that the Board should have powers for taking over land for specific purposes. This sort of operation has been going on in Scotland for 100 years in various ways. Different authorities have had these powers, but the right hon. Gentleman said that the power to acquire businesses and other things in Clause 6 could be achieved only by agreement.
  If my information is correct, this is not so, because if there is power to acquire land there is power automatically to acquire the buildings on it. Therefore, one could acquire any hotels or business or anything one liked, though perhaps one could not acquire the name of the hotel or the goodwill of the business. But then one takes it a step further and looks at the powers which have been given to the Board. This is the one respect in which, I think, the Board has unfettered powers under Clause 11 to go round and ask any questions. It is able to ask for trade secrets from a particular industry and to ask questions about its finances. It can do this in a far wider way than has ever been done before, and with no proper security or secrecy arrangements.
  If my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) has the good fortune to catch the eye of the Chair later, he will be able to explain to the House in more detail the differences between the powers given under this Bill and those given under other Measures. He is the only qualified law officer on either side of the House.
  Mr. John Rankin: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain exactly where it is provided by Clause 11
  1104
  that the Board will have power to obtain trade secrets?
  Mr. Noble: It has power to collect any information specified, and it is quite open and competent for the Board to specify to the people who are asked question that it wants to know who the customers are for a certain textile firm, what formulae or mixtures are used to produce a rare metal, or anything else.
  Mr. Rankin: Is it fair to say that the right hon. Gentleman's statement is based not on the terminology of Clause 11, but on his own deductions from it?
  Mr. Noble: No, that is quite wrong. Clause 11 gives the Board the necessary powers to do exactly that and to look at all the financial operations.
  Before the election, writing in the Evening News of 28th September, 1964, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "For the Highlands, with their special problems, we will establish a Highland development authority with full executive powers and finance. And a Labour Government will not brook the obstruction of those to whom feudal privilege, deer and salmon are more important than the well-being of men, women and children."
  Splendid pre-election stuff, but the right hon. Gentleman has not, in fact, given this Board full executive powers and finance. Many people in the Highlands wanted a Board with teeth. This Board has not got one tooth, but the right hon. Gentleman has a most ferocious set of new snappers.
  I believe that the Minister of State met the Scottish Landowners' Federation. Does he still believe that they are a bunch of people trying to obstruct any development in the Highlands? I am certain that he does not, and, if he does not, he should be frank with the House and say so.
  A good many of us felt that the success or failure of the Bill would depend on the quality of the Board which was chosen.
  Mr. Willis: The right hon. Gentleman cannot get away with this. We are still waiting for the answer to my question: are the powers which the Board is to possess too big or too small?
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Gentleman must wait a little longer.

  1105
  As I was saying, many people felt that the success or failure of the Bill would depend on the quality of the people chosen for the Board. But the Board itself has no powers of initiative and it has very little money. It is unusual, even in a Scottish Bill, to find the Secretary of State mentioned 55 times in 13 pages. This is the measure of the control which the Secretary of State has deliberately kept in his own hands. He asked whether Argyll was likely to "want out". Perhaps Kilmarnock will "want in".
  The right hon. Gentleman must be frank with the House and tell us which leg the Government are standing on. When I first criticised the Bill, I said that it gave the Government far too much power, and yet the money provided at the beginning— I take it that I can use the Secretary of State's own words—the £150,000 rising to£1 million in three or four years, was too little in relation to the powers and, therefore, it did not make very much sense to me. I was told by certain hon. Members opposite that there was no reason to be afraid of the powers—" We cannot use these great powers with only this amount of money"—and then a few days later—
  Mr. Ross: Who said that? The right hon. Gentleman is instancing right hon. and hon. Members telling him this.
  Mr. Noble: I shall be delighted to tell the right hon. Gentleman afterwards, if he likes. They were hon. Members behind him. I did not refer to right hon. Members. I said that several of his hon. Friends said it, and I will tell him afterwards. They were talking to me in the corridors, not an unusual occurrence. As soon as this argument began to get about, the right hon. Gentleman said that the money was unlimited. If the money is unlimited, it is right for the House to look very carefully at the powers which he wants to give not to the Board but to himself.
  Some of my hon. Friends are worried because, when the Bill was published, the Secretary of State said that it was a prototype for powers which would be given to similar Boards to be set up in other parts of the country. Writing in the Glasgow Herald on 12th February last year, the right hon. Gentleman said
  "It may well be that the Highland development authority which we will set up will become a pattern for other areas."
  1106
  We on this side have always considered the Highlands a special case and given it special treatment.
  Mr. Ross: The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends were given special treatment at the election.
  Mr. Noble: I shall come to that in a moment, if the Secretary of State likes.
  We do not accept the idea that this Board should be a prototype for other areas, and, if we follow the right hon. Gentleman's request and do not vote against the Bill on Second Reading, it must not be argued against us if the same powers are asked for in respect of areas in other parts of Scotland. We shall reserve our right, when we return to power, to alter the composition, the powers or the functions of the Board as at present set out in the Bill.
  Mr. Willis: We are still waiting to be told the right hon. Gentleman's view about the powers of the Board.
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Gentleman must still wait. There is plenty of time.
  I have to some extent criticised the way in which the Secretary of State has kept all the powers in his own hands and given none, except under Clause 11, to the Board, and hon. Members may ask what my intention was, what I should have done, and how I should have tried to meet this problem. I shall now give the House a quick resumé of what I think should have been done.
  It is, of course, somewhat difficult for me in this case as I appointed a survey to look at many of these problems, and it has not yet reported. Equally, the Secretary of State has not waited for it. But in my belief, for the Board to be of any value, it must have a great deal more independence than the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give it. He tells us—and in his view he has looked at this very carefully—that it would be wrong to take away any of the many functions of the great number of agencies that operate at present in the Highlands.
  I do not agree with him on this. Possibly there are too many agencies. They are bound to be diverse in their various ideas. I believe that the capital spent by many of the agencies and, indeed, by many Government Departments in the Highlands, could and should be given to

  1107
  the Board to spend. For instance, there is the money spent on the planting of trees on the capital side of forestry, the capital side of money spent by the White Fish Authority and the Herring Industry Board through loans and grants and money given by the Government to the Highland Fund.
  I do not think that even the right hon. Gentleman wants to nationalise private contributions to the Fund, but the Government gave£150,000 to the Fund and this should go to the Board.
  Mr. Ross: It will. I could not put everything into my speech, but this money will come under the Board.
  Mr. Noble: I am glad to hear it, but I wish that the right hon. Gentleman had gone a great deal further.
  The money spent at the moment under B.O.T.A.C. loans, the global sums—I know that one cannot do this under the B.O.T.A.C. legislation—should be given to the Highland Development Board so that it has some real money to develop industry in the Highlands. In addition, perhaps at least some, if not all, of the subsidies we pay to transport in the Highlands could come under the new Board.
  We have heard very little—indeed, I remember hardly a mention of them in the right hon. Gentleman's speech—about local authorities in the area. I must be careful here in what I say because I have not discussed it with the local authorities, but I believe that some functions of the local authorities could come within the functions of the Board. I think, for example, of special roads—the Balgy Gap, for instance—which could come very easily under the Board. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman may have consulted the local authorities but he has told us nothing about it.
  Again, the provision of piers in the Highlands should be transferred from the local authorities to the Board and the county development offices might well be better used and more useful to the Highland area if they were under the Board's jurisdiction. In this way, it would really be possible for the Board to concentrate the efforts being made in the Highlands.
  One lesson emerges from the studies I have made of what has been done in Nor-
  1108
  way and other places. It is not enough just to spend a great deal of money and let each agency decide where best to spend it. We must concentrate, and that it why I do not believe, merely to set up the Board and leave all the independent authorities to make their own plans of where they are, for instance, to plant trees or put piers and so forth, is the right course.
  The first thing I would do would be to give the Board authority to spend up to a figure of about£50,000 on any one scheme without going to the Secretary of State. Under the Bill, however, any single scheme, whether it costs£50,£5,000 or£50,000, has to come to the Secretary of State for his approval. I do not think that this will give the Board either proper status or proper prestige to get on with its work.
  The powers of the Board will have to be considered carefully. Under the Bill there is no genuine right of appeal. There are no genuine public inquiries because the Secretary of State is in the scheme from the beginning. Before the Board can make any scheme, it has to have his authority to do so. Therefore, even where compulsory purchases mean that public inquiries are necessary and the Secretary of State is the final court of appeal, he will be acting as both judge and jury and that is entirely wrong.
  I promised to say something about advisory services. I welcome Clause 7. I think that it is the one really good Clause in the Bill, apart from many of the pious hopes expressed in other Clauses. There are three types of advisory service which very much need looking at.
  The first concerns land use. In the past we have seen far too many small landowners, farmers and others who have not had the skilled advice on the best use of land. This has not been so on the farming side, but, on the issue of proper integration between farming and forestry and other things, the prospect of such a service should be looked at.
  Secondly, one of the weaknesses of economics in the Highlands is that not enough advice is available to farmers on the costing of their operations. I have spoken in the past to the colleges about this and I believe there is considerable hope, if the colleges are given more money, of improving the quality of both

  1109
  agriculture and forestry in the Highlands in this way.
  Thirdly, in the Highland area a great many small businesses have been set up over the last number of years. Some of them have failed. One of the things that small businesses need, whether in the Highland area or Glasgow, is advice, the sort of consultancy that big businesses get if they run into management problems. Business consultants in the centre of Glasgow are available but expensive and many small businesses will not use them. This is something in which the Board could use its powers under Clause 7 very well.
  I believe that if this were the form in which the Board were set up it is possible that not only Argyll, but a great many other areas round about the Highlands would be only too glad to come within the scope of the Bill. This Measure gives me the impression that the Secretary of State is following precedents set, I know, by many of his colleagues, in acting first and thinking afterwards. We have a great many words here. The Bill will be judged simply by the deeds that the right hon. Gentleman does because it is he and not the Board who has the power.
  In the last five months, the right hon. Gentleman's sole contribution to the wellbeing of Scotland that is visible to the public at least is that he has persuaded the President of the Board of Trade to put nine advance factories in Scotland. But where are they? There is not one in the Highlands, nor in the North-East nor in the South-West nor in the Borders. On this basis, why should the outlying areas of Scotland feel that he is particularly interested in them?
  Mr. Ross: The Tories took nine years to build one.
  Mr. Noble: Yes, but if the right hon. Gentleman wants I will give him a list of the things, a list which he knows extremely well, which we did in the Highlands over the last 18 months.
  Mr. Ross: The election showed how little the people thought of the right hon. Member.
  Mr. Noble: I was trying to do what I thought it was right for Scotland. If the right hon. Gentleman takes the same
  1110
  view and bothers less about the votes he may get, he may finish with a better reputation.
  The Bill creates a separate type of individual liberty for those who live in the Highlands. There may be advantages, but if there are we should be told what they are. I do not believe that even the Liberal Party can accept all the powers in the form proposed in the Bill. The Secretary of State carefully confined his references to powers to take over land, but he did so because he thinks that landlords as a class are unpopular. However, he will also have power, if he wishes, to take over hotels, businesses, farms and everything else.
  I suppose that I should congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in that, unlike his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence, his right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who are concerned with defence policy, immigration policy and taxation policy, he has not turned his policy clean upside down since the election and at least has not said that he wants to develop the Highlands by spending all the money in England. Perhaps that is something to be said for him. But until we see some action, we will have difficulty about believing that his heart is in the right place and that his rather smooth words introducing the Bill were genuine.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I have a certain amount of sympathy for the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) in his job as Leader of the Opposition for the day and having to criticise the Bill. He had great difficulty searching for reasons and justifications. Many of his arguments seemed contradictory. He began with a great tirade against the fact that the Highland Development Board was not to have any teeth, as he said. He proceeded from that to say that in Committee he would see that what teeth there were were extracted; in other words, that the Board had too many powers and not too few. His suggestion that the Secretary of State should give the Board power to do things without supervision by the nation which set up the Board was contrary to everything ever done by any Government in this country.
  Mr. Noble: The right hon. Gentleman has missed the whole point of my argument. I know that it was rather long, but my argument was not that the Board had no powers but that the right hon. Gentleman had kept all the powers in his own hands. I am prepared to give the Board more powers, the right hon. Gentleman fewer.
  Mr. Woodburn: The right hon. Gentleman should look at some of the Bills which he introduced when he was Secretary of State, when he will see that they do not differ from this in this respect. He knows very well that the Minister responsible for Scotland must necessarily be mentioned in these Bills. However, I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman. He had to make what sounded like complaints against the Bill. My right hon. Friend made the same sort of complaints when the right hon. Gentleman was introducing Measures, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that it is common form to complain about the powers of the Secretary of State. We need not pay too much attention to such criticisms.
  I greatly welcome the Bill, because my right hon. Friend is implementing the pledge that a Board would be set up to deal with the Highlands. Whatever prophecies we may make are nothing to do with that. The first step has been taken and the Board, the Secretary of State, the Government and the people of Scotland are to have power to do things which ought to have been done before.
  As one who has had formerly the job as Secretary of State for Scotland, I believe that it will take some time to show the fruits of this legislation. When we talk about the Highlands, we talk about a small country into which hundreds of millions of pounds could be poured with hardly any results. One of the things which struck me when I was tackling this problem and when I went to the north of Scotland was that I found a previous Government had granted money for instance for piers, but at least in one case had built in the wrong place, so that even now the fishermen could not use it. A great deal of money was wasted in the Highlands, because there was no proper plan for its expenditure. I agree with the right
  1112
  hon. Gentleman that the Highlands must be viewed comprehensively and that money must not just be put into one area because someone wants it and because it will satisfy a particular set of people.
  Planning for the Highlands involves not only doing something in the Highlands but preserving something. There is the greatest danger that one of the Highlands' most valuable assets, the beauty of the landscape, will be destroyed, as the beauties of the Clyde were destroyed, merely for the introduction of some industry. There is plenty of room in the Highlands for industry to be introduced without despoiling beautiful areas. I hope that it will be part of the duty of the Board to comply with regulations which were laid down in my period of office, so that while there may be no national parks organisation in the Highlands, there will be some organisation, perhaps the National Trust, whose business it will be to watch over beauty spots and to call the attention of the Secretary of State to any danger of spoilation. There is preservation to be done in the Highlands as well as development, and I hope that that will be remembered.
  I hope that the conduct of operations under the Bill will not be vitiated by the old Highland feuds between landowners and crofters. Until the time of the Labour Governments, the Highlands largely depended upon the patronage of landowners. The right hon. Gentleman was right when he said that a great deal of development in the Highlands had come about because people who had made millions out of ironworks in the Midlands, Boot's the chemists or Wills cigarettes, had gone into the Highlands with huge capital to become landlords with a fancy for developing the land.
  In many ways they did great services. Boot was just on the point of solving the problem of bracken with his experiments when the war broke out, and many other people have done similar work in the Highlands. I should like to pay my tribute to many of those people. One of their hobbies was the cultivation of trees. A great deal of the knowledge which the Forestry Commission has today has come from the experience of such persons and the fact that they planted trees and experimented. While they may have been

  1113
  capitalists and may have made their money in the South, their hobbies brought great benefits to the North.
  Where they went wrong was in trying to preserve the Highlands as a playground for themselves and to prevent development. For instance, there is a village half a mile from the main road without a road access, a village which the population is steadily leaving. When I was there no young man or woman lived in the village, because young people would not live in a place which could not be reached by a van bringing bread and other provisions. Development of that half mile was not allowed because a landowner wanted to preserve that piece of land and refused to allow a road to be built. I advised the local people to build the road themselves, in spite of the landlord.
  That is only one example of what went on for years. Even hikers were prevented from going over a hill because a landlord wanted to preserve it as a quiet secluded spot on which nobody but himself was allowed. There are two kinds of landlords. One is the good kind who does a good job in the Highlands, and we pay him credit. Do not let us class all landlords together. There are good and bad, like the curate's egg. They are not all as tasty and delectable as the right hon. Gentleman said. I am willing to pay tribute to those who have done good in the Highlands. But this is not the right way to do it. The right way is for the community to do it. The matter should be dealt with publicly in the proper way, and democratically. It should not be that dealt with by vassals of a feudal character and of glorified patronage of wealth made in other parts of the country.
  In case somebody says, "What did you do?", which is a very common question which is put to former Secretaries of State, as the right hon. Member for Argyll will discover, I should like to say that we carried out some experiments. The Highland newspapers stated that during my period of office and that of my predecessors going back to Tom Johnston more had been done for the Highlands than had been done in the previous 50 years. This can be verified by the fact that we stopped depopulation of the Highlands. We gave the Forestry Commission a programme for 50 years to bring people back to the Highlands. When the trees left the Highlands, the
  1114
  people left the Highlands. When the trees go back to the Highlands, the people will go back. I entirely agree that it is necessary to plan the Highlands by combining trees and agriculture, because only in such a way will they be populated.
  I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that some depopulation of the Highlands is, to some extent, almost desirable as a result of efficiency in cultivating the land. I had to make a study for another purpose of the depopulation of Wales. I found that it was due to the fact that people, instead of starving in the valleys, had gone back and overcrowded the countryside. They left when they were able to go to other parts and earn a decent living. If through more efficient cultivation people can leave the land and earn a decent living elsewhere this is to be welcomed.
  Unfortunately, that is not always the reason for the depopulation of the Highlands. There is a steady drift from the outer islands to the mainland, from the mainland to Aberdeen and Inverness. The creation of new industry provides a great attraction. We must do something to keep people on the land as well as provide industries for their sons and daughters to work in elsewhere. We tried to do some of this and we found a certain amount of obstruction.
  I agree entirely with the right hon. Member for Argyll about the importance of grass cultivation. I should like to mention the experiments which are the result of Mr. Allan of Muirfad's study of the recovery of peat land by very simple and economic methods. This is being fostered by the Department in the western part of the Highlands. I gather that a large part of the peat land is being recovered. The Secretary of State may have to deal with obstruction which comes not entirely from the landlord. It is nothing short of a scandal that people in the Islands have to bring milk from the mainland. This seems absolute madness. People in Fort William bought their milk from a dairy in Edinburgh because they could not rely on getting pasteurised milk from anywhere else. People in Inverness got their cream from Cumberland and Dumfriesshire.
  To overcome this we tried to establish a State milk farm near Portree in Skye. It was crofting land. An appeal

  1115
  against it was made to the Land Court, which refused to allow the experiment to proceed. I am all for supporting the crofters in their rights, but the idea that progress in the Highlands should be stopped because of some stupid regulation to the effect that an empty croft cannot be used to start a dairy farm is the height of nonsense. I hope that the Board will have power to deal with this kind of thing and to establish experimental farms. I hope that it will be able to show what modern science can do in agriculture and will show the crofters that there is the possibility of developing their land to a greater extent. It must be possible to go further than merely to have lectures by people from the College of Agriculture, although they are very valuable.
  We had a whole valley scheme where we recovered grassland in Glen Oykel and compared it with land which had not been treated. To see 100 cattle grazing on lovely green sward where a very small number had grazed before on poor grass was an inspiration. But then a landlord—I am sorry to say it was one of the clan of the Secretary of State himself—raised considerable difficulties in our proceeding to deal with the whole glen. This delay went on such a long time that it frustrated what might have been a great development with the crofters, foresters and shepherds all living together in decent villages and the opportunity of social life. This proved possible in the Valley of Ay in the constituency of the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis). Enough shepherds, farmers and foresters were brought together to make a village. In another case, one landlord in the Highlands provided jeeps for his shepherds to come from outside to the village. This is the sort of thing that planning can do.
  What can we do? Obviously, there are clear lines of development. First, the Government have the power, through the Board, to create development. It will be a long job if the Government try to do it themselves. The most important thing is to get private enterprise, where it is willing, to do the job. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] But this is no new policy for us. Hon. Members opposite vitiated public discussion of
  1116
  these matters by silly talk of nationalisation and the power of the State.
  A Highland Member objected in the House on principle to the State doing anything even when private enterprise and everything else had failed. He would rather have nothing done in the Highlands than that the State should do it. This is absolute nonsense, and I hope that hon. Members opposite will stop it and get down to the practical problem of dealing with the matter. Private enterprise cannot save the Highlands. The only thing that can do that is an element of Socialism combined with private enterprise. Unless hon. Members opposite agree to that, they will condemn the Highlands to becoming a desert.
  Is the Highlands to be an area occupied by a healthy population? If so, we must provide a viable means of bringing that about. The Government have taken over responsibility of doing that, as previous Governments did. The question is, how are they to do it? The first element is private enterprise. During my time in office, we created a development area in the Inverness-Ross and Cromarty area to try to bring in industry. It proved impossible. Even with all the inducements of the development area, private industry did practically nothing.
  Mr. Noble: The right hon. Gentleman will have noticed that a lot of them have come now.
  Mr. Woodburn: I am glad to see it. I do not object; I welcome it. The fact was that we could not get anybody to accept. That went on for years.
  I tried to get Remploy to make use of the timber by establishing a factory at Cannich, so that instead of merely carting the timber over the road, some decent furniture would be made in a Remploy factory. We failed to get that. I do not blame private enterprise. One cannot expect industry to go there and lose money. Private enterprise is not a philanthropic institution.
  To get industry into the Highlands, we require hothouse development to get it started. The former Secretary of State agreed to this in the case of the Fort William development of the pulp mill. There is no objection on the benches opposite to nationalised State enterprise taking part in the development of the pulp

  1117
  mill, is there? Why talk about this nonsense? The pulp mill would not have been there if the right hon. Gentleman's Government had not used Socialist power to establish it and to make use of the timber. Otherwise, it would not be there. That is a great development.
  The Dounreay experiment, for which the right hon. Member for Argyll claimed credit, is entirely a State development in the Highlands which is in line with the suggestion which I am making.
  Mr. Ian MacArthur: The right hon. Gentleman speaks of my right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State having used Socialist powers to provide capital for the Fort William pulp mill. Surely, the point is that these are not Socialist principles. The principle of Socialism to which we object, and which was hinted at during the debate on the pulp mill, was the taking over by the State of that mill because part of it was being financed by Slate money.
  Mr. Woodburn: The hon. Member might allow me to know more about Socialism that he does. What he is talking about has nothing to do with Socialism. Nationalisation is not Socialism. Socialism is the planning of the economic life of the community to provide the best well-being of the community by the best means available.
  Mr. MacArthur: Has the right hon. Gentleman renounced nationalisation? Will he vote against the Bill to nationalise steel when it comes before the House?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): Order. Second Reading debates are very wide, but not as wide as that.
  Mr. Woodburn: Clearly, the hon. Member is so full of his prejudices that he is not approaching the subject in a reasonable way. He is trying to whip up his own hobbyhorses instead of facing the problem of the Highlands, which is what we are dealing with today.
  The Government will first use private enterprise and give it every inducement. I would give it as much inducement as the previous Government gave to Malta, where they gave relief of Income Tax, financed the building of factories—
  Mr. William Baxter: On a point of order. While I am interested in what my right hon. Friend
  1118
  has to say, would it be within your power, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to suggest to hon. Members that brevity is the soul of wit and that many hon. Members would like to express a point of view on this important Measure? I do not know whether you have any powers, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—I should like to know—to curtail the length of speeches of hon. Members.
  Mr. Rankin: Further to that point of order. Will you rule, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. W. Baxter) has now made his contribution to the debate?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Chair has no power to curtail the length of speeches. It has often been said from the Chair, both in the House and in Committee, that if right hon. or hon. Members speak at length that inevitably means that some hon. Members will be cut out of the debate. That is as far as one can go.
  Mr. Baxter: I apologise, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
  Mr. Woodburn: I have provided several hon. Members already with the opportunity of making speeches and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) says, my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. W. Baxter) has probably taken up his share of the time.
  The Government start by using private enterprise. They also have something else at hand. If private enterprise fails, they have the possibility of using the public boards such as the Hydro-Electric Board, the Forestry Commission and the National Coal Board. Many of these bodies have been able to help in providing industry in certain areas. The Hydro Board went out of its way to try to develop even private enterprise industries in the Highlands by providing stone for the building of its hydro-electric station and trying to recreate the old stone industry in the Highlands. It has done a great deal in this direction and, in addition, has used some of the money to provide roads, which are a vital artery for any industries which develop in the Highlands.
  The next thing is the local authorities. I hope that the new Board will use the local authority powers, because the local

  1119
  authorities have power to build factories and to help to create industry in their own area. They can create factories in combination with private enterprise to carry on the work.
  In the long run, the State itself could come in. We have heard about Dounreay, which is an excellent example of the principle which we have often advocated that State research should be brought into Scotland to a greater extent and that this provides a basis for scientific industry, which is very important.
  One advantage which the Highlands have is that they are a desirable place in which to live. We hear sometimes of business tycoons coming up to look for places to settle in Scotland. I have found that most of them wanted to know whether there were any pleasant places for their executives to live, where they can have the use of their car and do some hunting, shooting and fishing. There is no better place in the world than the Highlands to provide these amenities for the tycoons. If we get a Board with proper salesmanship, it might be able to get some of the American industrialists to come to the Highlands, because they do not pay so much attention to all the so-called obstacles of distance.
  There are also the industrial estates, which are part of the Bill, and there is the possibility of experimental farms, to which I have referred. If all these things are brought together and planned in such a way as to be directed in location to the proper part of the Highlands, great steps forward will be taken.
  We are dealing, however, with a country. It takes a long time to develop a country and to change direction for it. It takes time to alter a country's habits. Some Highlanders do not want a factory bell to get them to work in the morning. They have a much more pleasant life as it is. They are not anxious for everybody in the Highlands to be disciplined. They may do it when they go to other countries, but in the Highlands they like to have the leisure and the ease of the Highlands. The last thing they want is for someone to bring in factory bells at 7 o'clock in the morning so they must get on the job and work until 5 o'clock at night. I do not blame them for wanting to preserve some of the
  1120
  life which they have, but they must realise that in other parts of the Highlands we must provide the possibility of a greater population if we are to maintain the social services.
  There are places like the Black Isle, where there is probably as good farming land as anywhere. There are places in Ross-shire which are more charming and delightful to live in than any other place in the world.
  A Committee of this kind has a great opportunity to give an inspiration to the Highlands. Governments do not themselves do the job. They inspire others to do it, and I am sure that if the Government continue to give the kind of lead which they have provided in the Bill, they will provide an inspiration not only to Highlanders in the Highlands, but to those in other parts of the country, and indeed of the world, to come back and play a part in developing their own homeland.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. John Brewis: The right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), who is a former Secretary of State, speaks with great authority on many of these subjects. I do not propose to follow him through all the matters that he mentioned, but I would like to thank him for his reference to Mr. Allan of Muirfad, and his technique for reclaiming peat. Mr. Allan comes from my constituency, and he has made a great contribution both to Galloway and to the Highlands which have certain problems in common.
  We are right to provide for the establishment of a Highland Development Board. We have had a long speech from the Secretary of State for Scotland dealing with the powers which the Board is to be given, but he gave us very little idea of what the Board is going to do with these powers. The last Administration set up a special Highland Survey, whose report will be published this summer, in a few months' time, and it seems that the Secretary of State has been in a great hurry to push the Bill forward without really considering what the Board is going to do. It seems that because no other Bills are ready to come in from the Scottish Office the right hon. Gentleman has had to hasten this Bill through to give the appearance that his Administration is doing something for

  1121
  Scotland. As a result he has given the Board inconceivably wide powers, but at the same time he has taken steps to see that those powers cannot be used without his approval. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) said, the Secretary of State is mentioned about four times on every page of the Bill.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: We should get the facts right. The setting up of a Highland Development Authority was mentioned in the Labour Party's election programme in 1959, and for some years before that. Surely the hon. Gentleman is prepared to give the Government credit for having carried out that promise?
  Mr. Brewis: I am aware of that, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman should have awaited the result of the survey which is being carried out. Some of the powers which he is taking seem to be unnecessary, and some, like those in Clause 11, seem to be verging on the outrageous.
  I think it has been said from the other side that the success of the Board will depend a great deal on securing the good will and the confidence of the people in the Highlands, and particularly of those who have anything to do with the land. I was pleased to hear the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire talk about fostering private enterprise in the Highlands, although the last thing that I want to do is to get involved in an argument about what should be done by private enterprise, and what should be done by State enterprise in developing this area.
  There is one aspect on which we may be disappointed. I do not think that there is the scope for developing land which hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to think there is. Nor do I think that the policy recommended by the Highland Panel in its pamphlet, "Land Use in the Highlands and Islands", is likely to be particularly successful. It is interesting to note that compulsory powers for acquiring land for land settlement have existed since 1897.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: Since 1885.
  Mr. Brewis: I am delighted to accept that correction. One of the difficulties in connection with land in the Highlands is
  1122
  that of getting a return for a farmer, crofter, or tenant, which is adequate for the effort which he puts into it, and commensurate with the return he would get from a holding of the same size in a different part of Scotland, or indeed in England. It seems to me that the view taken by the Highland Panel, that a return of£750 per year for somebody with a holding, is too low. It works out at less than£15 a week, and one of the difficulties in the Highlands has been that of people going South because they can get much better rewards there.
  Some of these land settlements are likely to be utterly uneconomic. The pamphlet to which I have referred says, and I have no reason to disagree with it, that such a holding would require about£15,000 to£20,000 of capital spent on buildings and fixed equipment to secure a return of£750 per annum. If the sheep farm has been carved out of a deer forest, the fencing of about 3,000 acres will put one very much nearer the higher figure, but even taking£15,000 as the capital required for buildings, fencing, and so on, and adding much the same figure for the value of the land, one sees that the return is getting down to about 2½ per cent. This pamphlet issued by the Highland Panel says that the income from sheep farming is made up as to 60 per cent. of production grants, so the return of any moneys spent by the State on land settlement is likely to be extremely small.
  I think that there are difficulties about the State going in as the landlord of agricultural or sheep farming property. There is always a push from the Treasury for State activities to be economic. In my area rents are higher in the Department of Agriculture's holdings than in the neighbouring ones. In one case the rent charged by the Department is three times the average rent in that part of the world. In many ways private land owners are in a better position to develop agricultural areas than is the State.
  It may well be that we are chasing a hare on this question of deer forests and grouse moors, because not much of these areas is agricultural land. It may be that the real difficulty lies much more in the crofting areas, where there is a good deal of arable land. A holding of about 100 acres of arable land would be necessary to provide an income of

  1123
  £750 per annum, and I cannot help wondering whether the Board has its eyes on some of the crofting areas like the Isle of Lewis where there are more than 2,000 crofts of less than five acres, and only 19 of more than 100 acres. I hope that the Board will not resurrect the spectre of Lord Leverhulme in dealing with the small crofts.
  Mr. Russell Johnston: As I recollect it, during the debate on the Deer Bill, Lord Muirshiel, the then Secretary of State for Scotland, said that there were a quarter of a million acres which at present were deer forests, but which could be reclaimed.
  Mr. Brewis: The hon. Gentleman will find the figures in Appendix C of the pamphlet on land use. My memory of the debate is that the figure was nearer 100,000 acres which could be reclaimed, and that the remainder of the area to which the hon. Gentleman referred was being used for some form of agricultural grazing.
  With regard to forestry, here again our hopes may be pitched a little high, because there is a reference to about 1 million acres which could be planted in Scotland. Not all these 1 million acres will be good planting land, for various reasons, such as accessibility and climate. Furthermore, the Forestry Commission is likely to experience considerable difficulties in obtaining adequate labour. There was an interesting passage in a recent Estimates Committee Report on the Forestry Commission when the conservator for the Western Conservancy area was giving evidence about labour. It is a long passage and I will not quote it, but its general effect is that no trained agricultural labour is available, and that the labour has to come from the industrial areas.
  In an industrial society many people have forgotten—if they have ever been taught—the correct way to plant anything, or even the correct way to use a spade. Considerable difficulties have been experienced in obtaining labour. The average wastage every year was 20 per cent. and in some years it rose to as much as 55 per cent. We should be deluding ourselves if we thought that the Commission could increase its pro-
  1124
  gramme very considerably in the next few years.
  It should concentrate round areas where growth is possible—areas like that in which the Fort William pulp mill is situated, where we hope to get a growth point going. If it concentrated its efforts in this way, the Commission could make a large contribution to the development of the Highlands.
  Few people have noticed that private owners, during the years 1959–63, planted just under 20,000 acres of woodland in the Highlands and in doing so employed many people. It is interesting to note that in reference to the Westminster estates in Sutherland the Taylor Report on crofting said that nothing it had seen had impressed it so much as the private woodland planting in that area.
  Mr. Manuel: I agree with what the hon. Member is saying about the actions of some private owners of woodlands, but if it were not for the public money injected each year in the form of grant in respect of these private woodlands these advances would not be possible. It is public money.
  Mr. Brewis: I shall probably be asking for more public money in a minute. There is a great deal of scope for planting not only by landowners but by tenants and crofters. It is extremely useful for a tenant farmer or crofter to have a small patch of woodlands, because he can cut his own stobs, and the wood can also be put to valuable use in the form of shelter for his stock.
  Timber prices have fallen considerably in the last ten years. It may be that where there are no guaranteed prices landowners, tenants and crofters in remote areas such as the Highlands—where we want to foster development—should be given higher planting grants than are given to people in other parts of Scotland. When a tenant does do any planting, under the present agricultural legislation he is not entitled to claim compensation for improvements. This may be a small point, but we might be able to do something to encourage the further planting of trees.
  A great deal of help could also be given in connection with natural resources. Surprisingly little has been done to find out the extent of our natural resources. The Scottish Council

  1125
  appointed the Elgood Committee, and a Chair of Natural Resources has been set up recently in Edinburgh University, but many natural resources in the Highlands remain to be properly charted. A survey party from the atomic station at Dounreay stumbled on large potassic deposits at Loch Eriboll a few years ago. I believe that these deposits have great commercial possibilities. Dolomite and other minerals are also found in the area.
  I therefore ask the Minister of State whether the Highland Development Board, under the provisions of Clause 7, will be able to set up a committee to study the possibility of providing the necessary finance to carry out a proper survey of all these natural resources. We also need better grants for incoming industry. I was very disappointed when the Secretary of State said that the grants available to the Highlands from the Board would be no less and no more than those obtainable from B.O.T.A.C. For a long time I have felt that it is wrong to give the same grant for incoming industry to the Highlands as is given for incoming industry to Merseyside. The building grant is 25 per cent. all over the country, but it should be greater in the Highlands, because if a business is not a success the value of the secondhand factory there will be very much lower.
  We could study what the Norwegians have done. They have been able to get an accelerated depreciation out of their Treasury, which means that instead of waiting for years for a profit to come they can receive a grant in respect of depreciation before the profits come in. B.O.T.A.C. is much too pernickety in considering applications. In Norway, the Small Industry Office is quite prepared to accept a failure rate of about 50 out of every 100. I do not suggest that we should go as far as that, but I do say that B.O.T.A.C. is far too inclined not to take a chance on some development which could be useful to the Highlands.
  There is no doubt that the Highland Development Board will need much more money if it is to do its work properly. A figure of£150,000 has been suggested for the first year, but that compares badly with the£33 million that has been spent every year up to now, and will continue, we hope.
  1126
  As the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Y. Mackie) said, in a memorable phrase, it would be like taking a teaspoon to empty the Minch. Unless we can be assured of much more money for this Board it is likely to end up like a stranded whale without accomplishing very much for the Highlands.
  6.9 p.m.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) except to say that his contribution seemed to be based on the assumption that he and his hon. Friends should do all they can to extract any teeth that are at present in the Bill. He expressed fear about certain Clauses. I assume that he wants them weakened. But he then proceeded to give a long list of things that he thought needed attention—forestry, private woodlands, natural resources, and so on. He thought that more public money should be injected into schemes connected with them.
  He must make up his mind how far he will support us. I imagine that there will not be many hon. Members opposite who, at the end of the day, will not be asking my right hon. Friend and the Highland Development Board to help certain interests in their constituencies as that Board begins its job.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) mentioned that a great many people are taking a great interest in the Bill, and that is so. Scotland has been throbbing with discussion. We have had whisperings, little murmurings and some small thunderings from Tory interests which fear that some of the powers that they have held too long will be wrested from them. The Liberal Party representative referred to a teaspoon and the Minch. The Liberals are under a misapprehension about the powers in the Bill and I shall try to enlighten the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Y. Mackie). Possibly he will need a much bigger ladle after I have finished, in order to be able to enjoy the rich soup which I hope will emanate ultimately for the people in the Highlands, and in Scotland generally, as a result of the provisions in the Bill.
  I agree that great interest has been taken in this Measure. Many people have

  1127
  spoken to me about it, people living in Glasgow, Ayrshire, Renfrewshire and other places, whose ancestors lived in the Highlands but left them long ago; people who have never been to the Highlands but who have a great interest in that area and, if it were possible, would like to move to the Highlands. There are a fair number of English-based Highland landowning interests which are taking a fervent interest in the Bill. I hope that before the end of the debate the Minister of State, Scottish Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), will tell us something about those interests and how divorced they are from the actualities and the real life of the Highlands. I am not saying that there are no good landlords, but absentee landlordism is rife in the Highlands. Such landlords have not behaved as they should and their responsibilities have not been properly discharged.
  In the main this Bill has been well received. All the local authorities affected are well pleased with its provisions. They may have some misgivings about this, that or the other, but they did not receive the Bill in a way to which hon. Members on this side of the House could object. There has been no actual hostility. It is generally recognised by the progressive forces in Scotland that a Measure of this character is long overdue and this is evident in the conversations of people interested.
  Through the years we have had much legislation dealing with the Highlands. There have been inquiries and probes into the ills affecting the seven crofter counties. As I have said repeatedly in this House, the complaint about them all has been the same. They have failed because they had not enough power or teeth to do the job which they were set to do. Lack of money is lack of teeth and it is best that we should recognise it. I shall come to the money aspect in a moment, and possibly provide some education for members of the Liberal Party in that regard.
  In 1955 when we discussed the legislation setting up the Crofters Commission, and in 1961, when we debated legislation relating to the crofters, I said that there was not enough power being provided and that we should fail in our objective. This Bill must have a different result. Its purpose is to provide for the further
  1128
  development of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland by the establishment of a Highland Development Board. That is laid down in Clause 1. Clause 2 states that a Highland Development Consultative Council shall be constituted to advise the Board on the exercise and performance of its functions. I should like the Minister of State to deal with that point and tell us more. It would appear galling that a Consultative Council should tell the Highland Development Board how it should perform its functions, and I think that could have been better worded. It would appear that the lesser body is dictating to the major body.
  The Secretary of State may give directions to the Board of a general character about the exercise of its function. Clauses 3, 4, 5 and 6 of the Bill are important, but Clause 3 is one of the most important. It deals with the duties of the Board. Subsection (1,a), states that the Board shall have the duty
  "to keep under review all matters relating to the economic and social well-being and development of the Highlands and Islands."
  Paragraph (b) of the same subsection says:
  "after such consultation with local authorities in the Highlands and Islands and other bodies as appears to the Board to be appropriate, from time to time to prepare and submit to the Secretary of State for his approval proposals, whether general or specific in character, for the economic and social development of the Highlands and Islands or any part thereof."
  These are wide powers, as is said in paragraph (c)
  "to concert, promote, assist or undertake measures to implement any proposals so approved."
  Paragraph (d) states
  "to advise the Secretary of State on such matters relating to their functions as he may refer to the Board or as the Board may think fit."
  In other words, there will be a two-way traffic for proposals and functions. Paragraph (e) lays down that at the end of each calendar year there will be a report from the Board to the Secretary of State. Subsection (2) states:
  "The Secretary of State may approve In whole or in part, any proposals submitted to him. …"
  Subsection (3) lays down that the Secretary of State shall submit a report to each House of Parliament.
  This is much more than we have been able to do with the anomalies which have

  1129
  arisen in the Highlands in connection with private ownership. We can at least have these reports and debate them. The Secretary of State is to be the hinge on which we shall swing one way or the other; we shall either go forward or dodder along as we have done in the past. My right hon. Friend has a great opportunity to grow immensely in political stature. I am quite sure that he will seize the opportunity. If he is able to tackle this job, I do not mind how many times his name appears in each Clause of the Bill. If we mean to achieve things by this Bill we shall mention his name much more. I should imagine that he will seize every opportunity to create the motive power to get things done.
  I know that the Opposition think that my right hon. Friend is getting too much power. I should like to know what the Liberal Party think about this. We shall hear from their representatives if they get called, but possibly not all will be called. It should be recognised that the Liberal Party can say, do and think what they like, because, in practice, they will never have the chance to do any thing. That is a fine position to be in. They have not to act with the responsibility which I have, for instance—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—in this connection as a back bencher solidly supporting my Government. Therefore, their task is easy by comparison.
  It is interesting to hear what the Liberal Party think about my right hon. Friend having too much power over the acquisition of land under Clause 4, or the powers given under Clause 10 for entry upon land. The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) will speak later and, as he has legal knowledge, I should like him to devote some time to this question of acquisition of land and the power of entry. We have debated these powers on many occasions. They are no greater than the powers given to local authorities to acquire land for housing, roads, and many other purposes which local authorities are bound to carry out. They have a right to acquire land compulsorily in order to do these things.
  Though it is said that too much power is being taken under this Bill, I did not hear any speeches from hon. Members opposite about similar powers given in
  1130
  other Acts passed by them. I could mention many, but I shall quote from just one short Measure, the Flood Prevention (Scotland) Act, 1961, in which I took an active part, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), who is now Secretary of State, and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East, the Minister of State. Section 7 of that Act was supported by the hon. Member for Galloway who, like me, was interested in preventing the poor farmers and crofters and owners of smallholdings from being flooded out. The hon. Member for Galloway was enthusiastic about Section 7, which lays down:
  "A local authority may be authorised by the Secretary of State to acquire by compulsory purchase any land (whether in their area or not) which they require for the exercise of their powers under this Act, and the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) (Scotland) Act, 1947,"—
  exactly similar procedure to that which is laid down in this Bill—
  "shall apply in relation to any such compulsory purchase as if this Act had been in force immediately before the commencement of that Act."
  Section 8 says:
  "…any person authorised by a local authority"—
  not the Secretary of State—
  "shall, on producing if so required some duly authenticated document showing his authority, have a right at all reasonable hours to enter on any land (whether in the area of the local authority or not)…"
  I could go on reading this Clause. I would point out that it says in Section 9:
  "For the purpose of enabling them to exercise any of their powers under this Act a local authority may require the owner or occupier of any land (whether in their area or not) to state in writing the nature of his own interest in that land and the name and address of any other person known to him as having an interest therein."
  It goes on to expand this at greater length.
  These extracts show that there is no great difference between the powers used in the past and those laid down in the Bill. It is common form. I wonder how the hon. and learned Member for Pent-lands will get round this and present the case which the right hon. Member for Argyll has instructed him to present. I should think that he will find it very difficult to make out a real case for the claim that we are going too far in

  1131
  the powers contained in this Bill. While, on the one hand, hon. Members opposite are saying that we are taking too much power, on the other hand they are saying that we will not do enough. They are travelling two roads at once, which is dangerous. If one goes too far, one gets split completely. One cannot go two ways at once for too long before running into great difficulty. They say that the figure of£1 million per year is a derisory figure and talk as if this is all that the Board will spend. They cannot have it both ways.
  Mr. Woodburn: Some teaspoon.
  Mr. Manuel: As I see it, no definite sum is laid down in the Bill as a final commitment. I would assume that much of the actual work—I should like the Minister of State to deal with this point—entailing expenditure would not be undertaken directly by the Board. That would be silly. After all, we have in being the Hydro-Electric Board, the Crofters Corn-mission, the Forestry Commission, the Tourist Board, the White Fish Authority, the Herring Industry Board, the Highland Panel and so on. Coupled with them are seven county councils, all of which have great power, and into which we can feed any money as necessary. If any of the proposals of the Board authorised by the Secretary of State were brought into being, the Board would use existing machinery and organisation to do the job.
  For instance, if the Board decided that fish farming should be brought into being on a large scale, it would not try to do the job itself. That would be ridiculous. It would not set up a new agency it would use the White Fish Authority. I say to my right hon. Friend, in passing, that I have been reading a great deal about the potentialities of fish farming, and I would think that the secluded West Highland sea lochs would be eminently suitable for this purpose. If we can make a go of this—there is no reason why we should not, because other countries have —we would bring immense economic strength, not only to the Highlands but to the whole of Scotland. We would create far more employment than is envisaged in this connection. I hope that we shall make a go of fish farming. I think that it has immense possibilities.
  1132
  Similarly, large tracts of land could be brought into cultivation in order to provide much cheaper winter keep. Even if the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland, is a gentleman farmer, he knows that his cattle have to eat.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: The definition of a gentleman farmer is a man who is not much of a gentleman and less of a farmer.
  Mr. Manuel: I know something of crofting, so I shall leave the matter at that. I only know that the hon. Member told me in the Tea Room one day that he was a gentleman farmer. The hon. Member said he was not a working farmer. I see that he remembers the conversation.
  All of us who know the crofting areas know that one of the great stumbling blocks to getting a proper price for cattle is the fact that when the sales are on the cattle have to be sold, willy-nilly, because there is no way of keeping them. Anyone who travels to the Highlands is almost certain to pass lorries carrying straw—not even good hay—going up to the Highlands to eke out the feeding for the winter months for these poorer crofting areas.
  If we could turn many of the large tracts of land into land producing hay or silage we could make a considerable advance. I know that there are weather difficulties about producing hay, but we could have silage, and in this way we could immeasurably strengthen certain of the crofting areas by producing on a Government-owned farm winter keep of some kind. This offers immense advantages.
  If we were to do this we should not have it done directly by the Highland Development Board. The Department of Agriculture is surely the body to be used. I pay a tribute to that Department, which has excellent and most knowledgeable people who are devoting their lives to trying to make a success of agriculture in the Highland areas.
  Mr. W. Baxter: I am following my hon. Friend's speech with great attention. There is a great deal of substance in it. But he should bear in mind that there is another factor—not only winter keep for the cattle but the transportation costs in taking cattle from, say, an island to

  1133
  Oban or some other sale. The cost of taking them back again is almost prohibitive, and therefore the cattle cannot be taken back from the sale. Does not my hon. Friend agree that we need a better transportation system, with more uniform freight rates?
  Mr. Manuel: I agree, but I hope that ultimately we shall produce cattle on a much greater scale in the Highlands with many more sales points in the Highlands instead of having to take the cattle by motor vehicle, for example, to Oban.
  The point which I make is that if these bodies were to be used to carry out the Board's proposals, their own expenditure would increase. In many instances this would also be true of local authority grant-aided expenditure, where a local authority was carrying out work arising from the Board's proposals. There are, therefore, many ways in which money will be spent as a result of the Board's proposals, and the Board would not itself directly budget to spend it. Many spending bodies can be used by the Board and by my right hon. Friend to carry out the work which they are already skilled in doing. What they have not had in the past is the opportunity to have actual proposals placed before them which would make this worthwhile. In this event it would be quite wrong to look at the£1 million which has been allocated provisionally to the Board as a hard-and-fast figure. I should he deeply disappointed if this were so, and I certainly do not think that it will be so.
  Clauses 5, 6 and 7 are most important. I have not time to deal with them in detail, but I recognise their importance. I hope that the Board will not think that the be-all and end-all of Highland development will be achieved by the creation here and there of growth points. Certainly let us have growth points. The right hon. Member for Argyll was very enthusiastic about them, and he assumed that there would be enough activity radiating from the growth points to small areas outside. I have never thought that. I think that they will suck more into them than will go out from them, and if we adopted this policy it would be a cardinal error. I hope that, while we have growth points, if possible to attract people back to the Highlands, we shall
  1134
  guard against these focal industrial points sucking into their orbit the remaining labour from our more remote and isolated areas, thus creating more neglect and decay and further depopulation. But that is inevitable if the local point is to be the only point which employs labour.
  I hope that the Board and the Secretary of State will recognise that we shall not attract private enterprise industry into these remote and inaccessible areas and that the only way to hold and expand the population in these areas is by the Government, of their own volition, sponsoring employment there or deliberately creating employment by setting up small factories and light industry of some character, allied, I hope, to those skills which used to be in that area. By such a thorough-going State enterprise we should strengthen the economy in the area.
  But if we pin our hopes merely on growth points here and there, where it is considered that there will be suitable development and that industrialists will come up to Scotland because of the benefits in those areas, we shall create another problem in the Highlands, just as important as the old depopulation which led to people moving out of the Highlands altogether. It would be criminal if we were merely to suck people into these growth points and to create further depopulation in the poorer crofter areas. The county councils will not even have enough labour to look after the roads and communications if we do not pay heed to the note of warning which I am striking.
  The Government are the only body who can feed employment into these areas. It would not need much, and I am not thinking of great and grandiose schemes, but I am convinced that by spending a comparatively small sum the Government could create a situation in which additional employment would be provided. In some areas it might take the form of afforestation. The Forestry Commission is running out of land. I do not know what the right hon. Member for Argyll intended to do about that.
  The Board should show the way by creating a great new initiative in forestry development. This would result in more jobs for the advancement of forestry

  1135
  workers. At present there is not enough advancement and promotion and the workers in this industry are having to stick for far too long in junior posts. We need some new thinking about the whole salary and wage structure for the Forestry Commission.
  I hope that the pay scales of forestry workers will not be tagging along much longer behind those of agricultural workers. Unfortunately, this has been the wrong basis on which to fix forestry workers' wages. I hope that it will be recognised that the time has arrived when a new wages structure should be hammered out for the forestry industry. The terribly low wages applicable in agriculture should not apply to forestry workers, because the jobs are quite different. There are other hazards in forestry and workers in the industry need more initiative than the ordinary agricultural worker. That is not to say that I am saying anything against the agricultural worker. I am talking about areas where costs and so on are much higher and about an industry which requires a new pay structure.
  While I recognise the immense value of afforestation, it is not enough by itself. I hope that we will see located in the right places light industries sponsored by the Government. Action of this kind would represent a great break-through, and I hope that the Board will have the initiative, freedom and courage to take this long-awaited step forward.
  Government-owned small factories in these areas, where private enterprise will not go, would be of immense value. I am sure that no hon. Member on either side of the House would object to a plan of this sort or would be prepared to allow further depopulation to take place. After all, if private enterprise is not prepared to go to an area, why should not the Government sponsor their own industries there?
  I want to hear hon. Members opposite say that they want to see Government-sponsored factories in these areas. We are all bidding for advance factories. This is the same sort of thing. For heaven's sake, I urge hon. Members opposite to drop their hypocrisy about this business and to recognise that if we are to succeed in doing something for the High-
  1136
  lands we must have further measures of State enterprise.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: The hon. Gentleman asks what is the difference between the sort of proposals in this Measure and advance factories. The important difference is that advance factories are handed over to firms which must eventually be able to pay their way in equal competition with other firms in the same industries. The sort of enterprise which the Board might set up under the Bill, in relation to what the hon. Gentleman has been saying, would be able to fall back on the taxpayer if it ran into a deficit and, because it would have that advantage, it could drive competing industries in the Highlands out of business.
  Mr. Manuel: I am sorry to learn that the hon. Gentleman has such little faith in the Highlands and in the Highlanders. I am not talking about factories going into areas where they will need to be supported by the taxpayer. I have more faith in the Highlands and the population there. I suggest that if we select the right industries we will make them pay, even in competition with private enterprise. I have no fear on that score.
  I am sure that with the local authorities bolstering up the position by preparing amenities in the areas about which I am speaking, we can make a go of this. The Board will assist and provide solutions to many of the problems now existing, and I agree that there are many of them. They include transport, tourism and freight rates. The higher price of coal must be considered, particularly the extremely high price of it when it eventually reaches points in the Highlands. All these are questions which should come into the reckoning of the Board in arriving at the policies which it will put into operation in the seven crofter counties.
  I conclude by wishing the Board and the Consultative Council well. May great success attend their efforts. I hope that they will create vigour and life throughout our Highland communities where at present we see, in certain areas, nothing but decay, depopulation and a gradually worsening situation. This trend can be reversed and I hope that the Bill will enable those concerned to go forward and to act in a realistic way.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: I should like, at the outset, to apologise for the absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), who has been ordered to bed. This is a great distress to him because he has been advocating a Highland Development Board—or authority, a central executive body—for many years and no one knows the problems of the outlying areas better than he does. I will set the mind of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) at rest straight away. We welcome the Bill, accept the powers and wish the Measure extremely well.
  It is worth considering the history of the problem because certain illusions seem to be creeping into the minds of hon. Members. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) seemed to think that some of the landlords were splendid people who wished to do well by the Highlands in all things. There is a great illusion about landlords—good, bad, middling and other landlords. The whole point about them and about private enterprise in the Highlands is that however enterprising a man may be in a factory in Glasgow, the Midlands or any other part of the country, when he goes up to the Highlands he goes there for an entirely different reason—to get completely away from enterprise of any sort.
  Such a man wants peace, quiet and the illusion of being a Highland laird. There is a prestige thing about having thousands of empty acres on which to stride about. I know a little about this, because these feelings may have entered my breast at times. However, they have been stamped down in favour of the development of the land I happen to own, with the help of the excellent banking system in Scotland—[HON. MEMBERS: "And subsidies."]—Subsidies are not enough. I trust that they will go up.
  In the Highlands one starts off with a tremendous heritage of real distrust and betrayal to get over, because the clearances are not dead in the minds of people in the Highlands. They are there because people do not realise the tremendous hurt that was done to a family feudal system when the men were cleared off the land to make way for sheep and
  1138
  profit. The landlords at the time, the natural heads of the Clan, could come to England and ape the English. Since then this feeling of family distrust has transferred itself to the proprietors of the Highlands, who are there purely and simply because of their interest in sport, and their interest is to keep down development. I have no doubt that they are nice people, kind to children and good to dogs, but they do not have an interest in developing the Highlands.
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Member must know the Westminster Estates. Is what he has been saying true of it?
  Mr. Mackie: I am aware of Westminster Estates and I agree that it has planted some land. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well the immense advantages that exist for death duties and other things. I am glad to say that Westminster Estates has seen the common sense of undertaking development.
  My point is that in the Highlands we have to produce conditions in which the good pupils of Golspie High School, which has the highest percentage of university entrants in Britain, can feel that they can stay here, develop in their own country and thrive. At present they do not believe that. They believe that the only road to prosperity is the highway to England or elsewhere. That is a situation that has continued for a long time in the Highlands.
  We want the people of the Highlands to develop their own country. I have an example in mind. As I have said before, I was once a Highland landlord. I bought a sporting estate, and we proceeded to try to turn it into a farm. We had some success. We put cattle where cattle had never been before, and we did some good for the place. In this case there was a large commercial undertaking at the top, a club farm on one side, and next door to us we had a neighbour who owned his own land and had built up his own hirsel since the war. He had formed it into a single hirsel, and had improved the sheep. That was the only good unit in the glen.
  There we had a Highlander with his own ground, his own hirsel and business, and doing a good job. The club farmers were not doing a good job, because of their set-up. We were making a moderate job at the top. But the Highlander made

  1139
  a good job of it because he was on his own land. It is the people in the Highlands who need the opportunities, and who need to be able to feel that they can thrive and progress in their own countryside as they have been able to do all over the world.
  I congratulate the Secretary of State. He does not look very much like a cupid, but he has put the seeds of love into the hearts of many landowners. The effect he has already had on some landlords in my constituency is quite astonishing. He has been a catalyst for good in their breast. We have the owner of an estate in the west of Lochinver who would not even provide land for a public lavatory for tourists going up and down the sea front, and certainly would not allow a garage to be built for a local teacher. Now we find there is an offer of land for a fish works, timber, and so on. What an effect the right hon. Gentleman has had—we should make him Foreign Secretary at once and see what he could do.
  We have to remember that all the good we hear having been done by the landlords has really been remarkably ineffective. We hear very much about the pulp mill, but I very much doubt whether, if another pressure group had approached the Tory Government to provide the money to deal with the pit props no longer needed from the thinnings of the forest, it would have had the same success as the landowners of the area. I do not say that it is a bad thing—it is a good thing. Again, the atomic establishment was built there because the site was technically suitable. I do not think that this sort of thing shows the intent that is needed, the will to do things for the Highlands, for which the Highlanders are looking.
  We regard as completely necessary the powers of purchase in the Bill. Nobody can quibble about them. They appear to us to be right and proper, and a sufficient safeguard for the job that has to be done. I agree with the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) that the Secretary of State is mentioned rather too often in the document for our liking—and, even worse, the Treasury is mentioned several times, too. I am aware that this is necessary, but it fills me with foreboding.
  1140
  I would say to the hon. Member who criticised me for speaking of money in teacups, and so on, that if that was not all the money the right hon. Gentleman proposed to put in the Highlands it was very wrong of him to mislead simple people like me by saying in the Preamble to the Bill that £1 million a year for three or four years was the amount expected to be spent. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, he is dealing with simple people, and if he says something in a Bill they are inclined to believe it. I am glad to hear that what is said in the Preamble is not the fact, and that much more money will be available. We all know that major enterprises need a lot of money invested in them. The distillery at Invergordon, which is an example of local enterprise in the area, was already spending£4 million or£5 million in capital development. An expenditure of£1 million a year would not provide the kind of growth we shall need.
  We all realise that in order to produce a Bill quickly—and I congratulate the Secretary of State on producing this one quickly—rather than writing in enormously complicated safeguarding Clauses, it is much easier simply to do it through the power of the Secretary of State. I have always said that any competent body with the power of the Secretary of State behind it, and with money, could do the job. That is why we welcome this Bill, although we view with some foreboding the return of a gentleman perhaps not as favourable to the Highlands as the right hon. Gentleman. We think that under this Bill a Tory Secretary of State could stop a great deal of development without coming back to Parliament, and that is a weakness of this Bill. However, I am aware that there is a remedy to this, and we will have to wait and see.
  One point that must be made clear to the Treasury is that the right hon. Gentleman is not asking for money additional to the£33 million. He is asking for an entirely different kind of money. He will be investing in the Highlands instead of propping up decaying industries and public institutions. It is quite ludicrous that it should cost £650 or thereabouts to educate a child in Sutherland. That is the result of decay. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman

  1141
  will invest in something that will give a return and lower the cost per head as compared with the other public money that has been pumped into the Highlands—and it has been generously pumped—but has not done the good we want. It has not been so directed that the whole of enterprise and industry in the Highlands will start to grow. We must have money and planning in sufficient amount to reverse the whole of the past trend, so it must be placed properly.
  I have some small criticisms of the Bill. I do not think that the Highland Fund has to account to the Secretary of State for every part of the£150,000 it gets from him, and the Highland Board should be able to lend up to at least £50,000 a year without taking every application to the Secretary of State and£ominous phrase£ "the Treasury". What is needed is a block grant.
  I should also like to know whether this money will revolve. I hope that when the Highland Board gets back money it has lent it will be allowed to keep it and lend it out again, instead of the money going back to the Treasury. All money coming in should be put in a revolving fund. I cannot understand why the Board is not allowed to borrow. The Clause says that it shall not borrow, but it might at least say that it shall borrow only with consent.
  Turning to Clause 7, I hope that the Board will by consulting firms make full use of available experience. That is very necessary if use is to be made of the experience available all over the country. I hope that the Board will be much more generous with money to tourist associations and for publicity than have past Secretaries of State and the present Secretary of State. Tourist associations are at present in a poor way. They need more money. I hope and trust that the Board will get money to conduct publicity in a proper manner.
  I want to mention one or two things that I would like to see done. I should like to see the Board undertake really comprehensive development of land, whether for agriculture, sport or forestry. The present fault of the Forestry Commission, as the right hon. Member for Argyll must know, is that it must buy land in competition with spare money which is buying land for sporting or
  1142
  prestige purposes. When the Commission has bought land, it must make it pay, because it has an economic remit. It then plants all the best bits of the ground in the downland to make it show a profit.
  It is obvious that this is a foolish way to pursue a national plan for forestry. It was all right in the days of extreme depression, when land all over Scotland could be bought far too cheaply. Now, when an area has to be planted, forestry should be spread over the whole area, not just one estate in it. One must go in and take a whole glen like this House, and one must plan where the trees are to go to fit in with agriculture. This cannot be done in estate boundaries. I can take the right hon. Gentleman over hundreds and thousands of acres in my constituency where the Forestry Commission has not planted a tree, and it never will until somebody forces it to do so or does it for the Commission.
  This must tie in with agriculture and it must tie in with sport. Of course people enjoy sport in the Highlands. Of course it is a good draw for people coming to Scotland, but one does not need to own and keep derelict large areas of it in order to enjoy it. It will tie in with other forms of production, quite apart from being on its own.
  I should like to see the Board go and look at things. I should like the Board to go over and look at the Tennessee Valley. There is a tremendous field there in an area the size of this whole country with 5 million inhabitants. The standard of the people living there has been enormously increased by a combination of enterprise, private and public. This is what we want to see in this country.
  We want to see peat developed. At Dounreay there is a marvellous example of a new energy-industry. Right across the road there is a splendid opportunity for the old industry. The Irish Board is at the moment exporting peat to Glasgow in briquettes for use in a modern setting at about£10 a ton. I understand, though I am not sure of this, that it is a smokeless fuel. This is an opportunity which should not have been let slip. I hope that the Board will proceed with a practical scheme for using the enormous reserves of fuel in the peat bogs.

  1143
  I hope that we shall see lobster cultivation come in, because at the present moment we have the case of small local fishermen exploiting a particular shore and then along comes a pirate—I regret to say, very often from the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland—who slaps down 300 lobster pots, lifts the catch and goes off, leaving it bare for another six months. There must be some organisation in shell fishing, which is a very attractive industry indeed.
  I want to quote one short remark by Franklin Roosevelt who, when speaking about the T.V.A. said this, that T.V.A. he wanted to be
  "a corporation clothed with the power of government but possessed of the flexibility and initiative of a private enterprise."
  This is what the Secretary of State wants to aim at with this Board. The whole thing depends on the Board. It is no good setting even the Secretary of State to fly a Comet aeroplane. It is a beautiful machine, but it is necessary to know how to fly it. The personnel of the Board are vitally important. I have said before—I make no apology for repeating it—that this is of extreme importance. I am sure that the Secretary of State will resist political pressures to elevate unsuitable people to the chairmanship of the Board. I hope that the chairman will be a man less than 50 years old. I hope that the Secretary of State will be willing to pay him more than he himself gets. I cannot see that we shall get a man of the necessary ability, unless we are prepared to pay the salary he can command in industry; nor can I see him having the ability unless he can command that salary. I am very glad that there was no mention of the salary the Secretary of State is willing to pay.
  The Board's success will depend on there being at least three first-class full-time members, particularly the Chairman. I know that the Secretary of State has had offers from all over Scotland. The last figure of offers that I heard was 400. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider them. I hope that he will search far and wide to get the right chairman. I hope that he will be able to pay him the right sort of money. I hope that the man who is eventually chosen will be the type of man who will stand up to the
  1144
  right hon. Gentleman and will fight him for what he wants against the demands of the central belt. This type of man will not be found in a hurry. He certainly will not be found cheaply. I wish the right hon. Gentleman all success in his search for this paragon.
  7.6 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Y. Mackie). I must say that I listened with very great enjoyment. I am sure that I speak for all my hon. Friends in saying that we largely agreed with a very great part of his speech. It was indeed refreshing to hear such a speech from the Liberal bench, where sometimes the slant has been rather to the right than to the left, if indeed it has ever slanted left at all. Therefore, we are very glad to have this refreshing revival of radicalism in at least Caithness and Sutherland. We look forward to hearing it on many occasions in the future.
  The hon. Gentleman became almost lyrical in his rhetorical passage about "seeds of love", as I think it was—a fine lyrical piece in which his rather unconvincing Romeo addressed himself to an equally unexciting Juliet in the form of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. At that point I thought the hon. Gentleman was about to cross the Floor. I have not abandoned hope that he may yet do so. Nor should he lose hope of this. If the hon. Gentleman wants to be poetic and lyrical, these word might occur to him:
  "Over then, come over, for the bee has quit the clover",
  "and the Tory honeymoon" —shall we say?—"is done". The hon. Gentleman will know the original verse. I am sure that the words are familiar to him. if he wants to make a radical speech and mean it in practical politics, the hon. Gentleman must realise that he is wasting his time sitting with eight solitary Liberals on that side of the House when he ought to be ensuring permanently a Labour majority on this side by becoming a good practising radical.
  The thread which has run through the speeches made by hon. Members opposite, and indeed those made by hon. Members on this side, is a certain strain

  1145
  of disappointment which it is impossible to dissociate from any Measure brought before the House, however good it is. I hope that both sides of the House will regard this Bill as only one part of a pattern of development involving and including the Highlands, and including the Highlands and involving the Highlands more than ever before in the development of the country as a whole.
  A very interesting warning not to expect everything immediately is to be read in a newly published book called Labouring Men by E. J. Hobsbawn. In the book there is this passage, which is a warning in that sense to hon. Members on both sides:
  "A moderate revolution is a contradiction in terms. though a moderate putsch, coup or pronunciamento is not. However limited, the ostensible aims of a revolution, the light of the new Jerusalem shine through the cracks in the masonry of the eternal Establishment which it opens.
  When the Bastille falls, the normal criteria of what is possible on earth are suspended, and men and women naturally dance in the streets in anticipation of Utopia."
  I am sure that it is perfectly true that people in the Highlands, like others, did dance a little and would like to dance a little more enthusiastically for just a little more than we are getting in this one Bill. It is common experience to be disappointed by any one Measure, however good, in the course of a programme.
  Whereas there was some criticism from hon. Members opposite, nevertheless from all speeches in the House there has been a note of acknowledgement that this is—at least—something new. Some Tories are frightened of it. Some tepidly welcome it; but at least they admit it is a new departure, and that there is some hope in it. Nobody condemned it outright and most hon. Members gave quite a long list of things, all definitely beneficial, which they hoped would come with the setting up of the Board.
  The hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) ended up by giving a long catalogue of all the things which he hopes will yet be contained in the Bill. This is bound to be the later pattern—I am possibly putting some hon. Members off their speeches—on all sides of the House. The hon. Member for Galloway also gave what could be a rather interesting description of the speech of his right
  1146
  hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble)—without disrespect. Then the hon. Gentleman said of the Bill that it was "chasing a hare on a grouse moor". I thought that it was an interesting but rather mixed metaphor and that his speech itself was suffering from myxomatosis, if I may be allowed one pun. But his speech contained a good deal of implied criticism of his right hon. Friend's opposition points.
  The Bill starts off with a Preamble dear to my heart and very familiar to me, because in almost every speech I have made in the House ever since before the war I have started by saying that I did not want to see money or resources put into the Highlands and Islands regarded as anything but an investment with the purpose of increasing the natural wealth of the area and increasing the utilisation of the resources of the Highlands and Islands in order that they might make a greater contribution in turn to the welfare of the United Kingdom.
  We in the Highlands and Islands have made our contribution in other ways—in the export of manpower, of brawn and intelligence. In peace we have sent many of our best into the professions and, in war, to the world wars in which this country has been involved. In the Highlands and Islands we are also making our own contribution all the time in the many ways which the right hon. Member for Argyll listed. We are making it in economic terms as well as in export of men and capacity. Therefore, I do not look upon investment in the Highlands as being anything but productive and useful national investment. We are not asking for doles and subsidies.
  We are at last in this Bill creating a lasting and firm foundation for the building of something more effective and better than anything that has been done in the past. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, the powers provided in the Bill are additional. The Board itself is something new. It is wholly new in structure. I will not say that there are many new and revolutionary powers given to the Board; but there is a bringing together and concentration of powers in a responsible authority answerable to Parliament and subject to discussion in the House in the

  1147
  most democratic way. Many powers and responsibilities are brought together which are now scattered over many bodies, each in itself pretty ineffective.
  I have had the privilege under both Governments of being Chairman of the Highlands Advisory Panel and I have worked with all sorts of people. I have worked with private landlords and with those who believe in nationalisation. It is not through lack of good will towards Highland progress among the people of the Highlands—because there is a tremendous amount among all social classes and political parties—that the sense of frustration has come about, but because of lack of action here in Parliament. It is here that action must be taken to see that recommendations, some of which go back to the first days of the creation of the Highland Panels, are made effective.
  The proposals in the Bill should be regarded as a new pioneer effort, not a rescue of the remnants. Fresh minds and a new approach, and particularly young minds, should be brought to bear upon the problems of the new Board and its duties faced as a full-time responsibility. But the people involved must also have enthusiasm for Highland and Island progress. They must have humanity, and understanding and sympathy with the Highland people. As far as possible, they must identify themselves with the problems and aspirations of the people of the Highlands, while, of course, having regard to the best national interest.
  I endorse with respect everything said by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland about membership of the Board. I said all these things at the time when the Crofters Commission was being set up. They still stand. Serious mistakes were made then and I hope that they will not be repeated in the case of the new Highland authority.
  The right hon. Member for Argyll listed for the benefit and political sustenance of those of this party who might be listening some of the things now being produced in the Highlands for the world, He listed forestry, which I have mentioned in many speeches over many years. It occurs to him, as it does to me, that the afforestation of the Highlands on a grand scale is not an act of kindness to the
  1148
  Highlands. It is an act of national necessity and of Government policy. It was shown in two world wars, when we were almost utterly dependent on imports under convoy, that something had to be done to make us more independent of timber supplies from abroad. After each world war a great forestry programme was undertaken with the notable interruption of 1931 when under a Tory economy axe hundreds of millions of young trees which would be growing now were destroyed.
  In the case of hydro-electricity it is obvious that when the nation has a choice between two places at which to generate electricity, between the Gorbals of Glasgow or the Highlands, the choice is not a real one. One has to go to the Highlands because it happens that the resources are there. This is a contribution which the Highlands are making and have been making for many years. The right hon. Member for Argyll listed textiles, including Harris tweed from my constituency, and tweeds with which he himself has been associated in past years, which have made a contribution in the dollar market and have earned American and Canadian hard currency.
  Dounreay, too, is not an act of kindness or charity or done for social reasons by past Governments for the sake of the Highlands. The putting of the experimental station there was dictated by geography and nature. The special conditions were there, and nowhere else in the Highlands or the Lowlands. Each one of these things, with the exception of tweed and whisky, and to some extent of some private forestry, is an example of how the nation has to go to the Highlands to develop the resources which would not have been developed by private enterprise and to a large extent could not have been and certainly have not been developed by it.
  All the examples were given by the right hon. Gentleman himself. They were all great national undertakings financed by Government money. These things would not have been done, any more than the Forth Road Bridge would have been built, without massive public investment, and the application of national resources to the problems. Private enterprise could have solved none of these great problems and recently it has been less anxious or less prepared or, let us admit, less able to do so—the choice of words does not matter very much.

  1149
  I emphasise that this is a Labour Government Bill. I accept for it the compliments of the Liberals. The thanks were conveyed very graciously by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland; but had there not been a Labour Government there would not have been a Highland Development Bill. There would have been a Tory Government and they would have been against promoting the Bill. We know perfectly well hat they would not have promoted it; nor could the Liberals have forced them to do so.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: The Liberals took the three last Tory seats in the Highlands.
  Mr. MacMillan: That was an aborted protest vote against the Tories, not against the Labour Party. The Highlands are in favour of many things which the Labour Party has been saying and doing day by day in the House, including the job we are doing now.
  Mr. Mackie: With respect, the electorate had the opportunity of voting for the Labour candidates also.
  Mr. MacMillan: Yes, but the hon. Gentleman must be very cautious. Every Liberal Member except the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) is elected on a substantial minority vote. This cannot be said about Shetland or the Western Isles. If the hon. Gentleman looks at his own election result, he will see, I think, that it is a minority of about 6,000. I shall not go over the others at the moment, but the figures are there to be seen.
  I am very glad, however, to have the Liberals with us on this Bill. It is very nice to have them coming in behind the Government in support of a Measure which they acknowledge as giving excellent hope for constructive projects in the Highlands and Islands.
  Mr. Russell Johnston Mr. Russell Johnston rose—
  Mr. MacMillan: I am prepared to take on both hon. Members, but I am sure that the Chair would not like it.
  Mr. Johnston: We have repeatedly given credit to the Government for introducing this Measure, and we have been advocating it since 1928. I think that we ought to be given a little credit from that side of the House for a change.
  Mr. MacMillan: I am ready to give the hon. Gentleman and his party full credit for having advocated many things which they failed to advocate when they had power to put them into effect. If this Bill had been produced by Lord Russell instead of being supported by Russell Johnston, we might have seen something done in long past years about a Highland development authority. We do not stop with the hon. Member at 1928. We must go back to 1908 and the days when the Liberals were answerable for what was or was not done. The Liberals have now had a very good share of interruption; but we should not forget what they left behind them after their long years of opportunity, years of almost unchallenged power in Government, in the Highlands and elsewhere. They left behind them promises about home rule, promises about Highland development, and that was about all they left. They did not even go nobly out; they gave in completely to the Tory Party, and that was the end of them. Slowly, they are emerging again now one by one from the maw of the whale which did not even have to swallow them, but into whose stomach they threw themselves at the end of the First World War and again in 1931. They did not learn by their first lesson. Let them not be too self-righteous about these things. It is all right to make promises when one no longer has responsibility for carrying them out. That is the easiest thing to do, and I am not saying whose traditional prerogative it is.
  But the Liberals, at least, have their chance now to come out in full support of the Bill. I am sure that they will. I know the individual Members concerned in the Highlands and I have a great respect and regard for each one of them personally. I am sure that they will support us, and I hope that the whole Liberal Party will do the same.
  The right hon. Member for Argyll, unlike the Liberal Party which has only its history to worry about, has both his party's history and his own personal record to worry about. Time after time, both as a private Member and as Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Gentleman went up the holy mountain of Tory policy and we waited many days for him to come down, believing that he would have in his hands the tablets of

  1151
  stone, but, instead, he came down with more sleeping tablets. Nothing creative happened about the Highlands. We had more Tory soporifics, and there was no greater expert than the right hon. Gentleman on these. He does it so well, so charmingly, and, for his own side, so convincingly. I am sure that he even hypnotises himself in the process.
  Year after year, the right hon. Gentleman told us that the Highlands must be patient. Important things were happening in the Lowlands and in the South. Of course they were. A great number of new jobs was being created there and public and private enterprise was going ahead in the South. We were going a long way towards the start of a new prosperity with the help of massive public funds. Not only the Colville's strip steel mills, but all sorts of other interests were coming cap in hand and asking for their cup to be filled to the brim. The right hon. Gentleman was admittedly not slow to help private enterprise with national assistance.
  On the other hand, in his first speech as Secretary of State, the right hon. Gentleman said that something immediate must be done for the Lowlands, but the Highlands would have "to be patient" and would have to wait. He will remember it. It was made in good faith, I have no doubt—the "waiting" part was, anyway.
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Gentleman is having his fun, and I quite understand that he is entitled to do so, but he is not entitled grossly to mislead the House, which is what he is doing now. In the last 18 months of my period as Secretary of State, much was done for the Highlands, as he knows as well as I do. There were the loans of£150,000 to the Highland Fund. There was the pulp mill. There was the extension of the fishery limits, which neither his party nor any party had done anything about for years. There was the decision on Highland railways which was of great importance.
  Mr. Ross: The right hon. Gentleman put them in jeopardy.
  Mr. Noble: They were not put in jeopardy, but they were considered properly by the people concerned. With my right hon. Friend the Minister of
  1152
  Transport, I took the action which everybody asked us to take. There were the special arrangements for people travelling to hospitals, which the hon. Gentleman has forgotten, and there were many other things, too.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that a large number of hon. Members on both sides desire to speak upon the Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time." We have wandered far enough and long enough from the subject.
  Mr. MacMillan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for reminding both of us. I only congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on being provoked into making a better speech by interruption than the one he made in opening.
  I have never forgotten any of the things which were done; but, clearly, the measure of the task before us and of the need for this Bill is the failure of past Governments to promote these projects which should have been promoted had the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends made the best use of their opportunities over all these years.
  The right hon. Gentleman's main criticism of the Bill seemed to be based on his objection to people representing the Board having powers to enter private estates or premises in the Highlands. Our trouble has been that people were driven out of the Highlands, not that officials were legally permitted to enter upon private properties in the Highlands for perfectly useful and legitimate purposes, as the right hon. Gentleman himself admitted.
  Mr. Noble indicated dissent.
  Mr. MacMillan: If the right hon. Gentleman will look up his speech, he will find that he was extremely anxious about encroachments on private property, private rights and that sort of thing, and he went so far as to observe that the Board would be interested in discovering, if not disclosing, the actual manufacturing processes involved in the production of certain things by private firms. That is what he said. I will give him the rest of his speech later if he has forgotten it.
  Apparently, the right hon. Gentleman is frightened that the Board will be ineffective—and he is equally terrified that it will be too powerful. He is afraid that

  1153
  it will be either a mouse or an elephant. At one moment, he was terribly afraid that the Board would not go far enough and could not do anything; and, at the next, he was terrified of being trampled underfoot. He cannot have it both ways, and neither can the hon. Member for Galloway, who was against the Board but who finished his speech by giving it about 50 desirable projects to carry out.
  In his criticism of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman must remember that under the Tory Government, the Highland regional plan was left to the very last. Why was that? Was it from force of habit or was it deliberate choice because the Tories felt they were going electorally out of the Highlands anyway, whether the Liberal Party or the Labour Party won? What was the reason? We were told to wait until the industrial areas were attended to first, and, on top of that, the regional plan was left to be dealt with last.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that the Highlands had not been developed by private landlords largely because the development would be uneconomic. This is no valid reason for preventing other agencies, including the Government, local authorities or a Highland development authority, from undertaking developments which private people are not prepared to undertake because they see no private profit in them. Hon. and right hon. Members opposite and their friends should be careful of their record on this issue when they criticise the Bill. They should remember some of their own activities and those of their friends, including noble Lords in another place. Every time a public agency in the Highlands wants to build a house, every time the Hydro-Electricity Board wants to drive a cable through a Highland area, an area scheduled as bog—and, presumably, very low-rated bog at that—that valueless piece of bog and water goes up in value many times over. Acres worth only shillings or supposed to be worth only shillings in private hands, the development of which would be, we are told, quite uneconomic, suddenly take on a soaring value and compensation is demanded on a colossal scale. This must he remembered in the account against the private landlords in the Highlands.
  I will say this about the Highland local authorities. The town council of
  1154
  Stornoway circulated a questionnaire to 25 local authorities in the Highlands last year asking their views on a Highland development authority. They did not all reply, but 16 of the 25 did and came out in favour of the setting up of a Highland development authority. Whatever the landlords may think, therefore, it is obvious that the local authorities, representing the people of the Highlands, are strongly in favour of it.
  Only the other week, the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) was much in favour of his constituency being brought into the Highlands area, knowing full well that the Government were to set up a new Board. Indeed, the nature of the Bill was reasonably well known to him.
  Mr. MacArthur rose
  Mr. MacMillan: It is no use the hon. Gentleman trying to dodge. I shall not let him make a speech by interruption, like his right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll. It is all in HANSARD. The hon. Gentleman asked the Secretary of State if Perthshire could be brought within the jurisdiction of the proposed authority. Other hon. Members opposite were clamouring to come under the jurisdiction and operations of the Board.
  Mr. MacArthur: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to misrepresent me. Those Questions were tabled before the Bill was published. I went out of my way, in a supplementary question, to say that my enthusiasm had declined very much since I had read the powers proposed in the Bill.
  Mr. MacMillan: I assume that the hon. Gentleman is now resiling from the position he took up earlier and now does not want Perthshire within the jurisdiction of the Board, nor within the defined Highland area. Under the Bill, adjacent areas can be brought into the defined area by order. I quoted the hon. Gentleman's own views. If he takes offence at that, he will take offence at most things. Most of those who are worried about the powers of the Board are people like Sir Francis Walker, Chairman of Inverness County Council. People like him and the right hon. Member for Argyll say that it is like nationalising the Highlands or destroying liberty. All that for a cost of£150,000! Some of

  1155
  the Highland landowners will not agree with these gentlemen when it comes to the purchase of their land and payment of massive compensation.
  My young Tory opponent in the election—he is a very good friend of mine—said that the Highlands and Islands were getting their fair share of the money and opportunities provided by the Tory Government. But then he went on to fight his campaign on securing special measures for the Highlands and Islands because of long years of Tory neglect.
  The Tories do not now speak for the Highlands. These counties are not nowadays represented in the House by the Tory Party. They were, however, and for far too long. It is unlikely that they will be back again. But even in those past days the Tories could not speak with one voice. We did not know whether they were in favour of a development authority or of anything else. Indeed, at one stage the constituency party of the then hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, Mr. John MacLeod, sent him a message asking for the expulsion of the then Secretary of State—the right hon. Member for Argyll—for mishandling matters concerned with the Highlands. In another constituency, in Orkney, the Tory executive and candidate resigned shortly afterwards. Throughout the Highland area, it was not worth talking about the Tory Party's policy, because no one knew what its policy was, except that it was roughly to stabilise the status quo—and some Tories did not even want that.
  There was a report in The Scotsman on 23rd February. One item in it worried me. I am sure that the Secretary of State saw it. I saw it when I was up in Inverness recently with two Liberal colleagues on joint action concerning the transportation of livestock. The report contains a very serious suggestion about the Board and Government policy. It involves reference to Ministers themselves and their servants at St. Andrew's House and bears directly on the Bill. I will read part of the report because it is extremely important that this matter should be cleared up. The report was datelined Inverness. It said:
  "Development officers of the seven crofting counties have been told by the Scottish
  1156
  Development Department that the proposed Highland Development Board will not take initiatives in the industrial field."
  That is a serious statement to make, in view of this Bill's being before the House. The report went on to say that the officers were told.
  "The spadework in attracting industry to the area will still be done by the local authorities, while essential roadworks will continue to be the prerogative of the Roads Department.
  The officers, whose appointment was urged originally by the Department, are dissatisfied because there is little evidence that the Highland problem will receive special priority. Indeed, at a meeting in Inverness, it was suggested by Department representatives that it might be ten years before real expansion takes place."
  Is that report correct or not? As it stands, it says that the development officers of the Highland counties were approached by Departmental officials and told these things and it is rather a serious thing, which should be cleared up. These officials must have been acting either with the authority of the Secretary of State; or in defiance of it.
  The report has given rise to a great deal of misgiving in the Highlands and I hope that it will be cleared up before the evening it out. There is one more paragraph I wish to quote and I will pass the whole report to the Secretary of State later. The paragraph says:
  "This fits the picture of the board's functions given to the development officers. It was indicated to them that the board would advise, assist and co-ordinate, but not initiate."
  If the Board is not to initiate in the Highlands as they are today, then it might as well pack up from the start. In any case, the Labour Party has been committed to initiatives by the Board by two of its Parliamentary leaders—Hugh Gaitskell and the Prime Minister. They have both said that not only would it initiate projects, but, if necessary, a Labour Government would set up factories and plants in the Highlands and Islands in areas where private enterprise has been manifestly shown to fail the nation. I hope that the Government are still committed to that policy. Indeed, they are so committed. Therefore, any such statement from St. Andrew's House, The Scotsman, Inverness or from anywhere else must be clarified as soon as possible; otherwise people will lose faith in the efficacy of the Board and the Government's good faith.

  1157
  The figure of£150,000 for the Board's administrative costs and the initial expenses of setting it up—premises and so forth—for the first half year, represents only a few months in time but it has nevertheless dismayed many people. It has caused misunderstanding, to say the least, because it is so small. Perhaps, it was a little unfortunate to have given an estimate at all, even of the figure of£1 million for 1968–69. Of course, that figure is additional to what is going on and being spent and it will not be taken from any other spending in the Highlands. It is, at least, additional; but most inadequate.
  If we think in terms even of civil engineering costs alone in the Highlands at the moment, then—1 million will not go very far. Three miles of road in the Isle of Harris is costing£220,000 or so; and we must realise that the longer these projects in the Highlands and Islands have been put off the more expensive they have become. Figures and estimated costs must be related more realistically to them, and these two sets of figures are not.
  One cannot but compare figures like£150,000, even for only a half year, or£1 million for 1968–69, with the expenditure on the N.A.T.O. base in my constituency, which is estimated to cost£3½million and the£45 million on one Polaris base at Gareloch. How many hundred miles of first-class roads, how many fine new schools, hospitals and houses, could we build with that money‡ However, as we know, put a thing under the defence umbrella and one can get away with anything. Even the known waste involved in these defence contracts would go a long way to meeting the money to solve our troubles in the Highlands and Islands. And I have not mentioned such cases as the wasted Ferranti millions. People are bound to contrast the £150,000, rising to£1 million in three years, for Highland and Island development, with the colossal expenditure going on in the area on military projects. The Highland people, inured to these high figures of defence expenditure, will nevertheless be staggered by the expenditure, largely on obsolescent waste.
  There is one thing I want to emphasise, and I will finish with this. I hope that the Board will not be thinking in terms of the traditional idea of growth points,
  1158
  although they are part of a very important concept. This is a phrase and concept which has grown up in recent years and become more popular in recent months and it is a most dangerous concept as applied to certain areas. Growth points elsewhere in England, Wales and Scotland to draw away from the congested South-East and London and the Midlands and so on and to provide for a redistribution of industry and population are all very well; but growth points in the Highlands are a very different matter.
  I hope that the economists will apply themselves a little more assiduously to the problems of areas like the Highlands and the Islands where the problem is not the congestion of the area, but the drifting away of population and the drifting away first of the most active, the best qualified and the best educated. Education itself is a depopulator in these areas. Talent, ability, skill, strength and intelligence are advantages themselves, but are depopulators also of the very people who should be applying themselves to the development of these neglected areas and to raising the standards of life of the people of their own communities and developing the resources of their homeland, in order to contribute ultimately more to the national wealth.
  I hope that one of the general directives which the Secretary of State will give to the Board will be that it should forget about the growth points principle in its now accepted application. It is all very well to have a Fort William; but, as has already been said, Fort William will inevitably draw population away from the villages. I said so when debating the pulp mill legislation. Even a development in Stornoway affects the villages on the perimeter of the island.
  I would leave the Board very free in its day-to-day work and even in its year-to-year work and I would give it a global sum of money and provide for limited amounts up to which it could spend without always having to refer to the Secretary of State, just as the House has given local authorities permission to undertake marine works, for example, up to£25,000 without provisional orders. I should like the Board to be much more flexible than is apparently envisaged; but I hope that the Secretary of State will give one general direction

  1159
  —that the growth point principle should be applied with the greatest possible care because of the great social problems of depopulation. It should stabilise population in the existing areas as far as possible and bring in light industries to the perimeter areas first of all—especially the islands—for the employment of young people in particular. The growth point concept could be most damaging to the Highlands, however advantageous it would be in other parts of the country, if unwisely applied.
  With some minor reservations, which I am prepared to argue in Committee, I hope that the Bill will get the support of many hon. Members on both sides of the House and I hope that members of, the Tory Party will approach it with open minds and will give it support as individuals from the areas adjacent to the Highlands which are so anxious to come under the Board's jurisdiction. I am sure that the Liberal Party will, not least because of my appeal to it tonight.
  7.43 p.m.
  Mr. N. R. Wylie: I wish to say something as briefly as I can about the powers contained in the Bill and the rôles assigned respectively to the Highland Development Board and to the Secretary of State. I know that many hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate and that time is getting on and I shall be as brief as I can, but I hope that hon. Members will bear with me if I attempt to be precise, because it is important that hon. Members should know and fully appreciate exactly what the Bill says and what it provides. Having listened to a number of speeches, it seems to me that many hon. Members have a misconception and a misapprehension of what is involved.
  The Bill begins by setting up a body corporate, and a body corporate is a piece of machinery well known to the law and peculiarly suited to functions such as those narrated in Clause 1. The essential feature of a body corporate is that it should have enjoyment in perpetuity, because it is a continuing body, of certain defined rights and powers, and unless the Board has rights and powers, in effect it is not what is properly regarded as a body corporate.
  1160
  My first criticisms of the Bill is that the Board, which is defined as a body corporate, does not have the necessary powers itself to fulfil the functions assigned to it and is merely a shadow of what a body corporate ought to be. All the effective power is entirely in the hands of the Secretary of State—Clause 11 apart and I shall have something to say about that later. The Board itself is in a straitjacket. I am not at all sure that it is proper for the Government to set up and describe a board as a body corporate, deprive it of the powers normally associated with a body of that nature and use it simply as a cloak, albeit a somewhat transparent cloak for the very wide powers which the Secretary of State is assuming.
  The proper course, and I hope that it is not too late to induce hon. Members opposite to adopt this view, is to give the Board the kind of powers and responsibilities and freedom of action appropriate to a body of this nature. I do not wish to make points which will be elaborated in Committee, but in particular among the things which this body must have if it is to be a live body are built-in borrowing powers. It is not good enough to say that there is an oblique reference in the Bill to borrowing powers. It is quite clear that the Government do not wish the Board to have borrowing powers. I should like the Board to have built-in powers of borrowing, defined powers of borrowing, and, above all, a built-in claim on the Secretary of State to those funds which are essential if the Board is properly to fulfil its functions.
  I will quickly and shortly consider the position in which the Board is to find itself. After the general introduction in Clause 1, we are brought up with a jerk when we find what is provided in Clause 2. In effect, Clause 2 provides that the Secretary of State is to have power to give directions to the Board, and the Board must carry those directions into effect. There is no suggestion of any prior consultation with the Board, as is to be found in corresponding provisions in other legislation of this kind. There is no suggestion of any restriction on intervention by the Secretary of State to matters which affect the public interest.
  This is a wide power assumed by the Secretary of State to tell the Board

  1161
  what he wants to do and, from the point of view of the Board, this reduces the Board's status to that of an agency of the Secretary of State. That in itself is a serious inroad into the status of the Board, but when one considers that under Clause 2(2), read with Schedule 2, that the Secretary of State is to be the person to appoint the consultative council to the Board, one realises how powerless the Board is to be. Normally, boards of this nature, bodies corporate, have their own power to appoint a consultative council, or a whole series of consultative councils, but in this case it is the Secretary of State who is to decide "as he thinks fit", to use the words in the Schedule, who is to be on this consultative council.
  That is a pattern which is scrupulously followed throughout the Bill. Clause 3 gives certain advisory functions to the Board, but the Secretary of State has complete discretion whether he accepts recommendations or proposals from the Board. If he rejects them, there is not even the suggestion that he has to state his reasons for doing so. The Board cannot purchase, lease, feu, or exchange even an acre of ground under Clause 4 without running to the Secretary of State and asking him whether it is all right for it to do so. It cannot give financial assistance by way of loan or grant under Clause 8 without going to the Secretary of State. It has virtually no borrowing powers and, as I have said, no built-in claim to funds from the hands of the Secretary of State.
  The Board cannot even—and this seems to me to be going unnecessarily far—set its own scale of charges under Clause 9(1) for the services which it provides under Clause 7. It cannot pay any remuneration or allowance to its own members and it cannot even employ, let alone pay, its own officers and servants without going to the Secretary of State and asking permission.
  In view of this, I am tempted to ask, what kind of body corporate is this? With what kind of independent body, so-called, are we dealing? It is so much under the control of the Secretary of State that it is very difficult to distinguish it from one of his own many Departments.
  Mr. Norman Buchan Mr. Norman Buchan (Renfrew, West) rose—
  Mr. Wylie: I will give the hon. Gentleman a chance to intervene if he will allow me to finish this part of the argument.
  The ultimate indication of this is to be found in Clause 13 which provides that the accounts of this body are not to be audited by an independent body of auditors, as in the case of every other board of this nature of which I know, but have to be submitted to the Secretary of State who then passes them on to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. I do not have the facilities to look up every piece of legislation which has dealt with this kind of thing, but I should be very interested if the Secretary of State could give me another instance of this kind of provision. I have been unable to find one. It seems to me unique.
  The final blow at the status and independence of the Board is to be found in Clause 13(5), which provides that the Board shall inform the Secretary of State about its activities from time to time. It goes on to say that:
  "… for that purpose"
  it
  "shall permit any person authorised in that behalf by the Secretary of State to inspect and make copies of their accounts, books, documents or papers and shall afford to that person such explanation thereof as he may reasonably require."
  In other words, the Secretary of State is not even prepared to accept the Board's report on its activities; he has to reserve a power to himself to send in one of his own people to make sure that the books are not being "cooked" and that the matter is above board. That is going very far indeed.
  Mr. Buchan: I am wondering whether the hon. and learned Member is serious about this. Earlier, the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) referred to his anxieties about Clauses 4, 6 and 11 because of their widespread powers. Is the hon. and learned Member suggesting that such powers should be vested in an outside body which is completely outside the democratic control of the House of Commons and in which he may share?
  Mr. Wylie: As the hon. Gentleman is well aware from what my right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) said, our criticism about those powers is that they are reserved to the Secretary of State and are not given to

  1163
  the Board. A body of this nature, if it is to be a development body, should have power of that kind with a reserve power on the part of the Secretary of State to intervene in the public interest.
  Mr. Buchan: I am wondering whether the hon. and learned Member would be happy with Clauses 4, 6 and 11 if the powers were vested in an outside body.
  Mr. Wylie: No. The powers contained in the Bill, whoever has them, go far beyond what is reasonably required to fulfil the functions of the body set up. What we say is that it should be the Board which has power to carry out its functions and that it should not be used as a cloak for powers reserved for the Secretary of State.
  As has been pointed out, the Board has certain functions. It has powers which it can operate without going to the Secretary of State. It can exercise advisory functions under Clause 7. It has power under Clause 5 to erect houses and buildings without going to the Secretary of State, although presumably expenditure in that respect would have to be authorised before it did that. However, I cannot understand why the Secretary of State, having taken all the other major powers to himself, has left the poor unfortunate Board with the powers contained in Clause 11, which in the context of this legislation are odious and objectionable. The power to obtain information in the Bill goes far beyond what is necessary and desirable. I assume that the Secretary of State is unwilling to exercise those odious powers himself, so he leaves the Board to do so. However, that is the only part of the Bill in which the Board has power to act on its own initiative in any real sense of the term.
  May I say a word about these powers generally? We all know that powers of compulsory purchase go back many years. The first examples of them go back to the Railway Clauses Act of about 1837. There are countless examples of that sort of thing, but when there are powers of compulsory purchase governed by the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, as we have in Clause 4, with no recourse to Parliament, there is something fundamentally objectionable because in this case the Secretary of State, either having given
  1164
  a direction under Clause 2 or having given approval at an earlier stage, is virtually a party to the proceedings on which he will pass judgment. It is in that situation where the Secretary of State is intimately connected with the developing body, as in the forestry legislation, that recourse to special Parliamentary procedure has been provided for in the past. This is certainly a case in which we should follow the precedents set in the forestry legislation of 1945 and 1951 giving recourse to Parliament before any compulsory purchase order is confirmed.
  As I read Clause 14(2)—these are matters which will be examined in greater detail later—if the question of approval comes up on a matter in which planning permission would normally be required, the Secretary of State has a duty under the Clause only to consult the local planning authority, and the reference to Section 13 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, is, in effect, by the way the Clause is worded, confined to subsection (3) of that Section which provides that the decision of the Secretary of State is final. If that interpretation is right, as I think it is, it means that in matters of this nature, which would normally involve planning applications, planning inquiries, and so on, that does not arise. We should consider this matter very carefully.
  The powers in Clause 6, for example, read with Clauses 4, 10 and 11, seem to me to constitute an amazing concentration of power in the hands of the Secretary of State. This is something which all of us in the House have a duty to watch. It is very easy in this day and age to give the Executive more and more power, but all power of this nature impinges on the liberty of the individual at some point in his life. It is our duty as a House of Commons to ensure that no unnecessary powers are granted. In my submission, the powers contained in the Bill go far beyond the point of what is reasonable and necessary.
  7.59 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, West): I hesitate to make any great comment on the speech to which we have just listened. I have great respect for the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie), to whom we will listen with great interest in Committee. His speech this evening was essentially

  1165
  a series of Committee points. I want, however, to make one comment concerning borrowing powers. I should have thought that Clause 9(2) implied that the Board would have borrowing powers subject to the consent—quite properly, it seems to me—of the Secretary of State and the Treasury.
  The hon. and learned Member made a valid point when he referred, as did his right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble), the former Secretary of State, to the evidence in the Bill of what I call the dead-hand of the Treasury at work. This, I think, was the price that had to be paid by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for getting the Bile before the House at this point. That, indeed, is the only explanation that can be given for the writing into the Bill of the specific figures of£150,000 in the first year and£1 million over three years. This is the hand of the Treasury at work, and I hope that in Committee we may be able to remedy it not a little.
  In the speech, not only of the right hon. Member for Argyll, but of every hon. Member who has spoken from the Opposition side, there seems to have been a schizophrenic approach to the Bill in general. They do not say "Yes" and they do not say "No". We do not know whether they will go into the Lobby tonight. It will be interesting to know whether they do. The hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) does not know whether he wants his own constituency inside or outside the area. All along, we do not know whether hon. Members opposite want the powers. They have been asked several times during the debate whether they object to my right hon. Friend having the powers, whether they want the Board to have them or whether they do not want to have the powers in anybody's hands at all. It has never been clear to us during the debate whether hon. Members opposite want these powers in the hands of anybody.
  One of the depressing factors in this debate has been the entirely predictable alarms and fears of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. I should have been worried had it been otherwise. I should have been worried had hon. Members opposite said that the Bill was a very good one and complimented my right hon. Friend on introducing it. The
  1166
  measure of a good Socialist Bill is the opposition that it gets from the benches opposite.
  Apart from the last few minutes of his speech, the right hon. Member for Argyll made a much more temperate speech than the one he made outside this Chamber as reported in The Guardian of either 1st or 3rd March. On that occasion, the right hon. Gentleman talked about the Bill as being of pure Marxist ancestry and he hoped that the Liberals would not support it. He said that they should beware of supporting Marxist doctrines as embodied in the Bill.
  The right hon. Member went on to say that all the personal liberties of every Highlander were being threatened in the Bill. Let not the Tories talk about personal liberties of the Highlanders. In an interjection to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan), the right hon. Member repeated about the Tories retaining the Highland railways. This is rich coming from the Tory Party. Who the devil threatened them in the first place, and what was the opposition that caused them to back-pedal? It was opposition organised by the Highlanders, and that was one of the principal reasons why the Tory Party lost their three seats in the Highlands to the Liberals. They know this very well.
  I wish to refer to one or two of the criticisms that the right hon. Member for Argyll has made of the Bill, both inside and outside the House. He referred to its disreputable Marxist ancestry. He and other right hon. and hon. Members have referred to what they describe as the measly sum of money that is involved—specifically the£150,000 in the first year and£1 million over three years—the attack on personal liberties and the fact that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did not await the results of a Highland survey which was supposed to be completed by the coming summer. Presumably, that survey has been going on for the last thirteen years. It is one of many over the last 200 years.
  Let me refer to the question of Marxism. If by that the right hon. Member meant public enterprise, it is abundantly clear to us on this side that the very salvation of the Highlands depends upon public enterprise. The right hon. Gentleman himself mentioned

  1167
  the Hydro-Electric Board, the Forestry Commission, the Dounreay plant, the pulp mill and the public money that went into it, and in addition there are all the social services, education, medical, housing and roads. None of this is private enterprise; it is all done by public money.
  The basic industry—agriculture—has millions of public money poured into it year by year. About£40 million a year goes into Scottish agriculture. So that private industry, such as it is, in the Highlands is underpinned by public expenditure of all kinds. The Conservative Government introduced the Highland Shipping Bill, which nationalised shipping in the Highlands. Not only has private enterprise failed to go in, but private enterprise in the form of the lairds has driven people out.
  I wish to refer to the recommendations of the Highlands Advisory Panel, which my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles graced with his chairmanship for some time, in its recent Report published after the election. It made what I regard as a fundamental proposition, that land in the Highlands is of "absolutely basic importance" and that a good deal of it is under-used and
  "in some cases grossly misused".
  Those were the words used by the Highlands Advisory Panel.
  The Report went on to say that the Highlands and the nation require that the land should be better used. I will quote one or two of the Panel's recommendations. Let it not be forgotten that the Panel included two Conservative Members, who subsequently lost their seats in the election. It may be because of these Marxist recommendations.
  Paragraph 121 refers to compulsory acquisition for forestry purposes and states that compulsory acquisition "should not be shirked". Paragraph 122 stated:
  "We think that more attention could be given to the part which can be played by land and water held in the Secretary of State's ownership."
  Recommendation 9 suggested that the Secretary of State should acquire land for the creation of family farms and recommendation 14 proposed that the Secretary of State should acquire land for improvement by efficient farmers. Recommendation 19 stated that the Secretary of State
  1168
  "should use his powers of compulsory acquisition in the Highlands and Islands"
  for forestry purposes and that
  "the statutory procedure for compulsory acquisition"
  should be amended to make it more flexible and less narrowly based. Recommendation 30 related to fishing rights and stated that the Secretary of State should have as an ultimate sanction "powers of compulsory acquisition".
  Tory Members of Parliament made those recommendations—Marxist infiltrators in the ranks of the Tory Party. In the investigation of natural resources, they recommended that the new National Resources Council which is to be set up—I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister of State will say something about this in winding up the debate—should stem from public initiative. This was strong Marxist "meat" from a highly respectable body which has done noble work in advising on what should be done in the Highlands.
  When I read the former Secretary of State's speech outside the House, I began to wonder why his party had lost those Highland seats. Was this the mark of Highland ingratitude to a munificent Secretary of State or was it a kick in the pants for a wastrel Government? I think it was the latter, and that view was held not only by the Highlands, but by the rest of Scotland.
  If I might paraphrase what the former Secretary of State said, he seemed to be afraid that the Bill would give the Government power to nationalise all the land in the Highlands. I hope that he is right in that interpretation. That would be infinitely perferable to the present system of ownership. During the course of the debate I have noticed English vested interests drifting in and out of the Chamber. I have seen a representative of the Lovat family, the fellow who was chairman of the 1922 Committee, one of the Morrisons, and other absentee landlords drifting in and out of the Chamber. I calculated that at one time during the debate about 1 million acres were represented on the benches opposite.
  I recall a very interesting article in the New Statesman, published just before the election, entitled, "Who Owns Scotland?". It is very difficult to discover this, and I hope that Clause 11, which empowers the

  1169
  Board to get information, will enable it to discover the owners of the land. In fact, I hope to put down Amendments to that effect. That article listed some of the top landlords, ranging from the Duke of Buccleuch, with half a million acres, to the former right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, with a few acres in Mull—a wide-ranging property-owning democracy.
  Perhaps I might put on record some of the owners of land in Scotland. The Countess of Seafield owns 216,000 acres; the Duke of Sutherland—200,000; Lord Lovatt—190,000; Colonel Cameron—160,000; the Duke of Atholl—120,000; the Marquess of Bute—117,000; the Duke and Duchess of Westminster and family—100,000; and Lord Thurso—100,000. The Leader of the Opposition is a tiddler compared with them. He owns a mere 60,000 acres. The same article said that less than 50 years ago the ancestors of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, on their Angus estates. levied 2d. a lb. on every lb. of butter, and 4d. a dozen on every dozen eggs, sold in Kirriemuir market place. The people I have listed are the people who want to retain their power in the Highlands.
  The British Aluminium Company owns 105,000 acres in Scotland, and in a subsequent letter in the New Statesman Mr. Catherwood, the managing director, now an adviser to the present Government, explained the contribution which British Aluminium had made to Highland development. I think that this company is a good landowner. It employs 1,500 people in the Highlands, and this is one example of private enterprise having done a good job. We do not have a dogmatic approach to private enterprise. If it does a good job, it has nothing to fear from my right hon. Friend, who is a beneficent character. This is not so much a war, more a shot across the bows.
  The brewers regard the Highlands as a great big bonanza. Colonel Whitbread owns sizeable chunks of the Highlands. This information is taken from the New Statesman. I do not know whether it is true, but, if it is not, the New Statesman will take the rap. It referred to the sale of an estate by Colonel Whitbread some time ago and said that in the course of the sale it transpired that the salmon and trout fishing on four miles of both banks
  1170
  of the Findhorn were rented from the Crown at a nominal £1 a year. Colonel Whitbread advertised the estate as a superb sporting estate of 60 square miles, controlling the entire mountain area surrounding the head waters of the River Findhorn, a deer forest, trout and salmon fishing, a grouse moor, and so on.
  The best known Whitbread estate is at Loch Maree in Sutherland, and four years ago Col. Whitbread managed to stop a much needed hydro-electric project—
  Mr. Alasdair Mackenzie: Loch Maree is in Ross-shire.
  Mr. Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman will have to write to the New Statesman about that. Any errors of fact are not mine but the New Statesman's. The fact is that four years ago Col. Whitbread managed to stop a much-needed hydroelectric project capable of producing 200 million units of electricity per year, and I understand that it is still held up, largely because that irresponsible landowner had the ear of an irresponsible private ownership Government who believed in the justice of the preservation of the rights of private landlords.
  Mr. W. Baxter: My hon. Friend thinks that the Bill will fundamentally change the picture that he has painted with regard to the ownership of estates in Scotland. Does he really expect the Bill to make a material change to the present state of affairs?
  Mr. Hamilton: If the Amendments that I am going to put down are accepted, the answer is "Yes".
  The article in the New Statesman concluded by saying:
  "Not an inch of private land in Scotland will be given up without a fight. The power and influence of the landowners is still immense. Their federation is busy persuading all landowners, even the smallest, to take out membership and so avail themselves of the federation's influence in high places."
  I hope that it no longer has influence in high places. The battle is now joined, and warning is hereby given that people matter most. The Highlands are a national asset, and must be used in the national interest. In this age of increasing industrialisation and urbanisation, in an age of speed, noise and smoke, and duodenal ulcers and bronchitis, the Highlands represent the only major area of

  1171
  escape to solitude, cleanliness, and beauty in Britain. It is too precious for any Government claiming to represent the whole nation to allow this gem of delight to be monopolised by a few selfish feudal landlords, and if the Bill does the trick it will have the support of every decent human being in Britain.
  Mr. A. E. Cooper: Sir Samuel, I wish to call attention to the fact that there are fewer than 40 Members present.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Samuel Storey): A count cannot be called at the present time.
  8.19 p.m.
  Mr. Ian MacArthur: It is often quite easy, when considering the Highlands, to slip into a mood of romantic sentimentality. Like the reaction of the piper in Neil Munro's story, the heart leaps back over the years and yonder lies Glencoe. Romance and sentiment are very agreeable, but these emotions, which often cloud debate outside this House, distort judgment by obscuring reality with a tartan cloud.
  The reality is that a Highland problem of one kind or another has confronted successive Governments for generations. Two centuries ago the Dress Act, the breaking up of the clan system, and other policies of oppressive pacification contributed to an upsurge in population, scraping a hard living from the thin soil. Then poverty, famine, disease and the clearances turned the people away and brought long years of drift, with a steady and unending erosion of the finest natural resource which the Highlands possess—the Highlanders themselves.
  When we speak of the Highland problem today we mean the problem of depopulation, which should haunt the mind and conscience of every hon. Member. Today there are fewer than 300,000 people in the Highlands. Great stretches of land lie nearly deserted except for the memory of generations scattered around the world and more often than not, a stone with too long a list of names of gallant men who died for their country. Against this background, any Measure which sets out to develop the Highlands is to be welcomed, provided that it is designed to meet the problem and is not simply an essay in theoretical
  1172
  Socialism. This is where I find fault with the Bill. It may have good intentions, but too great a part of it consists of irrelevant, unnecessary and damaging Socialist doctrine.
  On examining the Bill we find that it is very different from that which was described in very moderate terms by the Secretary of State for Scotland. For example, as it stands the Bill gives power to the Secretary of State, under Clause 2, to give the Board directions of a general character as to the exercise and performance of its functions. It places an obligation on the Board to give effect to any such directions.
  The Clause becomes sinister when linked with later Clauses. Clause 4 empowers the Board to acquire land by agreement or compulsorily; Clause 6 enables the Board to acquire or set up and carry on
  "directly or through an agent, any business or undertaking whether of a commercial nature or otherwise",
  and the enormous power or this Clause could be invoked after taking advantage of Clause 11, which empowers the Board to demand from any person
  "carrying on a business or undertaking …such information as may be specified in the notice with regard to the land, business or undertaking…"
  These Clauses give the Secretary of State the power to lay down, for example, that a chain of State undertakings is to be established in the Highlands, and under the terms of Clause 2 the Board is bound to give effect to that direction. The Board can then require the management of any business to disclose whatever information it asks for about its books, its trading position and the general running of its business. The management must give this information or suffer a fine. There is no appeal. The Secretary of State, acting through the Board, can then buy the firm's land compulsorily, and so put it out of business or, having secured access to the firm's confidential records, set up a rival undertaking which can fall back on the taxpayer to make up the loss.
  These powers will shock existing businesses in the Highlands. I was astounded to hear the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Y. Mackie)—a Liberal—say that he supports the Bill. He cannot fully understand the

  1173
  powers contained in it. If hon. Members opposite consider these powers and also what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) has said about them they will see that they will act as a deterrent to the establishment of new private undertakings in the Highlands.
  Hon. Members opposite may say that this is a far-reaching argument, or that things like this will not happen. I do not believe that it is far-reaching, because these powers would be relished by a Secretary of State who is drawn from the large Left wing of the party opposite. If these things are not going to happen in the future, why have these powers in the Bill? The intentions expressed by the Secretary of State this afternoon do not require these wide powers. Let him, then, modify these objectionable Clauses in Committee, to match his declared purposes. He will then make the Bill very much more acceptable.
  Mr. Ross: Does the hon. Member really mean what he is saying? If so, a far better speech can be delivered on the subject. It was delivered in 1949 by the then hon. Member who later became Secretary of State for Scotland—Jack Maclay. It is one he never forgave himself for making. The hon. Member's speech is its equivalent.
  Mr. MacArthur: I am not sure whether or not that was the occasion when Lord Muirshiel—as he now is—followed the right hon. Gentleman and said that he looked forward to hearing him again—
  Mr. Ross indicated dissent.
  Mr. MacArthur: —because he never forgave himself for saying that. Of course I mean what I say, because the powers are in the Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman does not require them, why set them out here? It may be said that my interpretation of the powers is too wide, but I still think that it is the right one, and that the offending Clauses should be modified in Committee in order to overcome the objections which I have mentioned. So long as the party opposite has a large and powerful Left wing and is supported by constituencies which are extremely Left wing—
  Mr. William Hannan: Smile‡
  Mr. MacArthur: I will not smile, because this is a serious matter. So long as Clause 4 is contained in the Labour Party's constitution, Measures of this kind fill me with dismay.
  Hon. Members opposite say that these powers will not be used in the future. The phrase "in the future" is the operative one, because the Board will have little finance in its earlier years. That is one of the disappointing parts of the Bill. I agree that it can perform a valuable role in filling some of the gaps which now exist in cur system, but it is ludicrous to start with a financial provision of only £150,000 in the first year—2d. per head per week—rising to about£1 million in three years' time. The Secretary of State said there would be no limit. Then why put this limit in the Financial Memorandum? If the Secretary of State feels that£1 million is about the order of expenditure which will be required in three years' time it must reflect the limit which he himself puts upon the activities of the Board. Whether£150,000 or £1 million, or a bit more, the figure is absurdly small when set against the powers that it is proposed to take by the provisions in this Bill and the large promises made by the party opposite before the General Election.
  Just before the election the Scottish Council of the Labour Party published a pamphlet called, "Let the Record Speak". This, it was said, was
  "a background guide to Labour Scottish policies."
  Reference was made to the Highland Development Board. The pamphlet said:
  "This new authority, well staffed, and with adequate funds, will provide an incentive to native industries opportunities for new industry and jobs with scope and future for all who have remained or who want to return to their native land."
  How on earth can£150,000 rising to£1 million fulfil this hope?
  The Labour Party claims that this Board would provide jobs for all, for everyone in the Highlands and everyone wanting to return to the Highlands. Here again is another large election promise which has been shattered within a few months. The sum is put into perspective by the amount of investment already being made in the Highlands. Yesterday the Secretary of State for

  1175
  Scotland was good enough to give me figures to which he has referred today. They show that during the years of Conservative Government the total increased year by year.
  Expenditure in the Highlands by the Departments of the Scottish Office increased from£13 million in 1954–55 to£31 million last year and to£33 million in the current financial year, to which may be added some2 million for forestry. Other large sums were involved, as the Written Answers in the OFFICIAL REPORT show. Among them was the£8 million loan to the Fort William pulp mills, and the remission of interest on that loan during the earlier years, and last year the record level of grants made under the Local Employment Act. If the argument of the right hon. Gentleman is that these tens of millions have failed to achieve the objective, how can a paltry additional £1 million succeed?
  Mr. Hannan: If the case of the hon. Gentleman and all that he is claiming as success for the previous Conservative Government policy is true, how can he explain that at the Young Conservative and Unionist Conference a week ago a resolution was passed condemning the acts of the former Conservative Government as deplorable, and the lack of decision by the Conservative Party regarding the Highlands? Strangely enough, the mover of that resolution came from Maryhill.
  Mr. MacArthur: I have the advantage of the hon. Gentleman in that I was present at the debate and I may say that the resolution was carried by a tiny majority.
  The fact is that the Young Conservatives recognise, as is recognised by all who care for the Highlands, that there is a tremendous problem to be solved. What was recognised in their speeches was the fact that over the last years of the Conservative Government more has been done for the Highlands than ever before in the history of Scotland.
  Instead of introducing this Bill in isolation, as it were, it would have been wiser to await the findings of the new Highland Study started by my right hon. Friend a year or so ago which was to
  1176
  be completed this summer. I do not want to make a great point about this, but it is the fact that special studies of other regions in Scotland outside the central belt are to be completed this year. Surely the Bill would have been better based had we awaited the findings of the surveys and the comprehensive knowledge provided by those surveys.
  Earlier today my right hon. Friend outlined his approach to planning. I think that made more sense than this piecemeal thinking. I welcome his proposals that the Highland Board may be reshaped in future to have much larger powers and that it would have the authority to spend up to a given sum, it may be£50,000, without having to go to the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Treasury. We need a certain measure of autonomy of that kind. I welcome his proposal that the Board should take over—
  Mr. Ross Mr. Ross rose—
  Mr. MacArthur: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish this point, because it is linked with my previous point, and then I will gladly give way to him.
  I welcome his proposal that the Board should be the financial authority, as it were, in the directing of the enormous expenditure by other bodies in the Highland area. I believe that this would make it much more possible than at present to concentrate programmes of aid and development within the control of a national plan for Scotland. Instead of spreading this spending piecemeal about the country, we should use a policy of concentration to fulfil the needs of development of particular areas more completely than can any other system. I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman now.—If he does not wish to rise, I shall continue.
  If the powers of the Board were reshaped in this way, I hope that my right hon. Friend might be able to consider a further step forward—the appointment of a Minister with specific and exclusive responsibilities for Highland matters. We have at the moment a Minister of State or an Under-Secretary of State in the Scottish Office team who handles Highland matters, along with other responsibilities. This is a case—one of those

  1177
  rare cases—where an additional Minister would be justified, particularly if the Board were to have these wider powers which ray right hon. Friend envisages. There would then be a greater sense of drive and purpose in the development of the Highland area.
  I spoke about the gaps which certainly exist in our present system which a modified version of this Bill might help us to fill. Perhaps, when the hon. Gentleman winds up, he would be able to say whether, with these modified powers, the Board would be able to fill some of these needs. There is, for example, in tourism, a great need for the provision of amenities, which may seem very small to us here, but which are of great importance to the locality. At Glenshee, in my own constituency, there is a need for more car parks and lavatory accommodation. There is only one public lavatory there to serve I do not know how many thousands of people. A new agency of this kind could fulfil an important need. Then there were the advisory services, referred to in the Bill, and which my right hon. Friend welcomed. These have a special role to play. At the moment, I believe, the only advisory services available in terms of management consultancy are those made available by an organisation called, I think, the Scottish Country Industries Development Trust. Normally, only the larger firms can obtain those services outside.
  I should like to know, too, whether marketing associations will be covered by the responsibilities of the Board. The right hon. Gentleman may know of the Marketing Association of Scotland Ltd., which was set up about two years ago, serving 24 very small companies scattered through Scotland, ranging from the far north to the borders. Seven of these are in the Highland area; eight are in development districts. They make an interesting list of firms employing perhaps two, three of four people, making woodenware, copper brooches and Celtic jewellery, largely for the tourist industry. They are firms which find it difficult to expand. They are not large enough to put up the sort of cover which banks often require. They find it difficult to run to the Bank Rate, especially at its present level, and they need access very often to fairly small loans. Some
  1178
  are covered by the Local Employment Acts, but many are not. I hope that co-operative ventures of this kind, the bringing together of small firms for a common selling or market research purpose would have the support and financial assistance of the Board. These are small things but it is just these small enterprises, employing a handful of people, which could make a world of difference to the glens.
  The Highlands is a special area and special arrangements are required for its future. We have had rising expenditure over the years. We have had, in particular, enormous investment in the land. But there are still gaps which, I believe, the Highland Development Board and this Bill could fill. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider the dangerous breadth of the powers which they are asking the House to grant. I hope that, during the Committee stage, they will agree to Amendments which may fulfil the intention which the right hon. Gentleman set out in his opening speech, but which will remove from the Bill powers which are dangerous and which could act as a deterrent to development of other kinds in Scotland.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: On a point of order. May I call to your attention, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the fact that fewer than 40 Members are present?
  Mr. Hannan: Further to that point of order. May I point out to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) has just entered the Chamber? Is it not also the custom in the House not to call a count at this hour? I ask you to refuse to accept the Motion.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Samuel Storey): The hour has passed during which a count cannot be called. There is no rule about how long an hon. Member must be in the Chamber before he calls attention to the fact that fewer than 40 Members are present.
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
  House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Rankin.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: The hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur)—
  Mr. Woodburn: On a point of order. Are you aware, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke), who has just called a count, is leaving the Chamber?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of order.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire seemed rather concerned about the fact that in the Bill we were seeking a great deal of power and not providing a great deal of money to pursue the ends for which the power was being sought. But he makes a big mistake. We are concerned not with money but with power. It is the power which is important. Once we get that the money will come all right. He can therefore sleep tonight in peace on that thought.
  As I see the Bill, it seeks to make the Highlands a part of Scotland. The Highlands suffer under the great handicap that they never had the industrial revolution. I am doubtful whether they even had the agrarian revolution, because, as has been shown tonight, the landlord-servant relationship still exists in the Scottish Highlands. When Robert Burns visited Inverary he summed up his visit in these words:
  "There's naething here but Hielan' pride,
  And Hielan' scab and hunger;
  If Providence has sent me here,
  'Twas surely in his anger."
  That was a true picture of the Campbell country under landlordism in Burns' day. People will tell me that that picture is no longer true. But I have had evidence of its existence because, during a period of my life, I worked in the Great Glen sailing between Banavie and Inverness as a purser on board one of the ships of a very famous line. One of my simple duties when we drew into the lock or into a pier was to offer my hand to assist ladies on the ship ashore. If those ladies were the wives of Highland chiefs they would not touch it. They refused to accept it. Later I became Labour candidate in West Renfrewshire. When I went into the hunting territory in that part of Scotland well known to most Scottish hon. Members to speak at meetings in the villages the workers on the estates sat at the back of the hall and the landlords sat on the seats in front. The landlord-servant relationship was still there, and that was not so many years ago.
  1180
  I mention these things to show that we have a sore which, in my view, has disrupted the Highlands and led to a sort of specialist treatment of the area, with little bits of good being done here and there. I do not quarrel with these things being done, but it has resulted in that part of Scotland being treated almost as if it were a distressed area; the special function of the Tories being to look after it.
  I want to see a new relationship. The Highlands are as much a part of Scotland as the Lowlands and the Central Belt. Scotland is one country and the Highlands will not be excluded from the legislation we are considering tonight. In this connection, the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire referred to the years of investment with which the Tories had endowed the Highlands. I do not quarrel with that, either, and I recognise that there has been investment in the Highlands. Hon. Members may be interested in this quotation from Cmnd. Paper 785, "Review of Highland Policy", issued in June, 1959. It was part and parcel of the policy of the Tories:
  "At the present rate of progress most of the major water supply works in the programme of the Highland counties should be completed in the next 5 to 7 years."
  If that part of the programme had materialised the problem of water supplies in the Highlands should no longer exist tonight and I ask my right hon. Friend whether that part of the Tory programme was consummated.
  We were told in that Review that over£4 million had been authorised for educational building since 1950. How many buildings in Inverness and other towns of the Highlands represent that investment? Dealing with roads, the Review stated that the figure for the reconstruction of existing roads was£750,000 a year. Yet hon. Gentlemen opposite are talking about chickenfeed tonight. That Review stated that in 1962–63 the expenditure on roads would reach the level of£2 million; that was for old roads to be reconstructed, with£250,000 for new roads in the Highlands. That was their programme. What was the epitaph delivered on it not long ago? The epitaph is to be found on page 28 of the Report of the Highland Transport Inquiry to the Minister of Transport, the Secretary of State for

  1181
  Scotland and the Minister of Aviation. It stated:
  "It cannot be too frequently stated that if the Highlands Roads System is to catch up with the development of road transport, and still more if road transport has to expand to fill the vacuum left by any contraction of rail transport, they substantial capital expenditure is needed on these main roads and at a much higher rare of progress and investment than is contemplated at the moment".
  That was stated in what the previous Government recognised to be their peak year; in 1963, when£2 million was to be spent. Yet the whole basis of their plan was condemned as being completely insufficient, although the plan was something about which they prided themselves at the time. But the Kilbrandon Report goes on:
  "If it is accepted that road transport is to develop and particularly if road and ferry are to become the normal means of access to the Outer Hebrides then it would appear logical and appropriate that certain of the major islands should be included in the trunk road system."
  That was written in 1963. I doubt whether any of those islands have as yet been included in the road system of the Highlands.
  We have been hearing a lot tonight about keeping the people in the Highlands or getting them into the Highlands, but there is the more important aspect of getting them out of the Highlands. We do not want to tie people to the Highlands—we cannot. We not only want people to come into the Highlands but to get out of them, and that is one of the major problems today.
  That is where our air services come in. The Outer Hebrides and the far parts of the Highlands must be brought closer to the Glasgow, Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Dundee conurbations. Residents must be able to spend a Saturday in the big towns as easily as do those persons in the little villages near the big towns. It should be possible, and must be possible, for people to fly to the big cities, see the game of football, go to the film show and return on the same evening to the far parts of Scotland. Distance is no longer measured in miles but calculated in hours. Stornoway is only 60 minutes from Glasgow and the people from the Highlands must be brought to realise that, because if they cannot use those 60 minutes to go to Glasgow they will leave the Highlands altogether, as they are doing now.
  1182
  In Argyllshire there were 78,477 persons in 1925; there are now 59,600. The population of Ross and Cromarty declined in the same period from about 68,500 to 57,568. The population of Sutherland fell from 16,568 to 13,313; that of Harris from 5,114 to 3,050; North Uist had 2,990 in 1925, knocked down to 1,850 and South Uist's numbers fell from 6,899 to 3,650 in the same period. In that period, too, the population of Lewis dropped from 23,287 to 16,300. In other words, where there were about 191,900 people in 1925 there are now only 155,331—a loss of 36,569 persons in 40 years. And that at a time when the population of Scotland grew from 4.880,000 to 5,200,000, and when the number of live births in the country exceeded the number of deaths. In the Western Isles alone the decline has been from 38,000-odd to 26,000 in that same time—a population drain of 30 per cent.
  Would there not be the most serious concern if such a rate applied to the City of London? The placidity that marks our attitude to Scotland's problem as expressed in its northern counties would certainly not then be part of our make-up.
  I turn now briefly to consider the cause of that drain. In my view, it rests on the concentration in the Highlands on the farming and crofting industry. For hill sheep farms, the net income per acre in the crofting counties is 4s. 6d. In the rest of Scotland it is 10s., with the result that production grants in the crofting counties are 66 per cent. to bring up the income to a living wage. In the rest of Scotland they are 60 per cent. In upland rearing, the net income per acre is£3 in the crofting counties, as against£3 5s. in the rest of Scotland. In livestock with arable farming, the crofting counties have an income of£7 per acre, as against£8 10s. in the rest of Scotland. In dairy farming, the crofting counties have an income per acre of£7, as against£9 5s. in the rest of Scotland.
  It is almost impossible to increase income, because these farms are mostly remote. That is one of the drawbacks. Climatic conditions are inferior to those in lowland areas. On the whole, the ground is much poorer. Therefore, the young, active farmer working in those difficult conditions in the crofting counties says to himself, "In easier and better conditions down south I could make a far bigger

  1183
  income." So those thousands are draining over the years into other parts of Scotland and into England.
  This goes on, but there is a gleam in the picture, because in Caithness there has been a rise. The population has risen from 26,345 in 1925 to 28,493 in 1964, an increase of 2,148. Wonderful, is it not? We glory in that, but generally that increase has been ascribed to the advent of the nuclear power station. This emphasises the need for further development along those lines so that this welcome, though petty, progress may be continued and expanded.
  It also points a moral. Man must have bread, though he is told that he cannot live by that alone. But those who are fated to belong to the type of society where they must live by agriculture know that they earn a lower subsistence rate. They realise that industrial nations are the rich ones. The development of society in the north of Scotland requires a greater infusion of industry. The recent loss of the university was a disaster to the Highlands; though a blessing to Stirling. Perhaps what a friend gets is not quite lost. A university is more than a seat of learning. It is a great industrial gift. It brings people, houses, shops, jobs, status. It becomes a growth point. If Inverness lost the last one, it is to be hoped that the Government will take note of that fact and do their best to secure one in its place.
  I also welcome the pulp mill at Fort William as being a step along the proper industrial lines. I suggest, finally, that one other thing we must face up to is the provision of cheap power. We must free the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board from the incubus of its debt to the Government. At the moment it has to pay about£6 million interest on Government debt. I am excluding the joint stock borrowings. On average, it pays£6 million every year. It may be said that comparison with B.O.A.C. is not pertinent because in the case of B.O.A.C. it was a revenue debt which the Hydro-Electric Board has not got. But the effect of a remission would be similar to what we hope it will he with B.O.A.C. At present the average cost of a unit of electricity is·937d. and, in my view, and according to the advice that I have received, a remission would reduce the
  1184
  cost to ·5d. The result of that would be a supply of cheap power, and the Highlands would then at least be on the way to the industrial revolution which it so much needs.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Gordon Campbell.
  Mr. W. Baxter: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The title of this Bill is the Highland Development (Scotland) Bill. This Bill does not seem to me to cover the whole of the Highland area of Scotland, and I respectfully suggest that this point should be noted at this stage in our deliberations. This Bill does not embrace the whole of the Highlands of Scotland. It deals with only the seven crofting counties of Scotland. Therefore, I suggest that the Bill should have been called "Part of the Highlands of Scotland Development Bill".
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think the hon. Gentleman will have to raise that point when the Bill reaches the Committee stage. Mr. Gordon Campbell.
  Mr. Russell Johnston: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. This Bill directly affects six constituencies. Can you tell me whether in such a case the Chair gives any particular consideration to the natural wish of Members representing those constituencies to speak?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Hon. Members must not criticise the calling by the Chair of hon. Members to speak. The only rule is that the hon. Member who speaks is the one who catches the eye of Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. W. Baxter: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is that absolutely correct, that one must catch the eye of Mr. Speaker? Am I not to understand that there are other methods by which a Member can be called to speak, not by catching Mr. Speaker's eye but by getting one's name placed before him by whatever devious method one may adopt?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Hon. Members must not criticise the calling of hon. Members by the Chair. If the hon. Gentleman wants to criticise, he must put down a substantive Motion on the Order Paper. Mr. Gordon Campbell.
  9.3 p.m.
  Mr. Gordon Campbell: It appears that I have caught your eye, at least, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I sympathise with hon. Members who have been unable to take part in this debate. All I can say is that some of the speeches appeared to be rather long, and they were not all from this side of the House.
  As my right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) and other hon. Friends have said, we shall judge this Bill by what the proposed Board is likely to be able to do for development in the Highlands. We intend to examine this Bill closely in Committee with this object in view. We want to find the best method, or combination of methods, to achieve this object of development in the Highlands.
  We must remember that this Bill simply seeks to set up a new piece of machinery. In itself it achieves nothing in the Highlands and will not achieve anything until this new body, if the House agrees, is set up. Therefore, we have to consider whether the prospects of development in the Highlands will he improved by the existence of this proposed new Board.
  I must point out straight away that the pulp mill near Fort William, which has been referred to in the course of the debate, was brought into existence without the need for a body of this kind and that the total amount of money involved in that was of the order of£23 million. A sum of£10 million was loaned by the Government at the time; the whole project cost£20 million, and at least another£3 million was involved in ancillary works such as housing, roads and other services.
  I suggest that for years to come the initiative in setting up that pulp mill will be regarded as the most significant single event in the development of the Highlands because of its effect throughout the area and the north-west of Scotland, as well as the effect in the increasing possibilities of employment in the area near Fort William. But that required a Bill to be passed through Parliament.
  As hon. Members on both sides of the House know, there has been general discussion for some time in the north of Scotland as to whether on balance a
  1186
  single body would have advantages in the operations of developing the Highlands over the several bodies which have been and are now operating in the Highlands. My right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll started about 1½ years ago the study of the Highlands, the results of which we are now awaiting. I must correct the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. MacMillan), who I am sorry is not now present, who said that the Highlands had been left to the end. This, of course, is quite wrong. The Highlands and the three other regions of Scotland—in fact all the regions except the central area were the subject of studies which were initiated at the same time. These were the Borders, the North-East, and the South-West, and when we left office in October we understood that the results were likely to come out some time this summer.
  The studies were started with no preconceived ideas of what the solutions should be, but they were initiated under the aegis of the Scottish Development Group with a view to studying all the problems and making a sincere search for the best measures to deal with them. I presume that results of the studies will become available in about three months' time. The Minister of State for Scotland will remember that, on 9th December, I asked him a Question about this in the House. I asked:
  "Will the hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that the thorough studies and sincere searches for solutions carried out, and are being carried out, through the Scottish Development Group with the local authorities and other bodies concerned will not be prejudiced by ill-considered decisions and measures taken for purely doctrinaire reasons?"
  I am glad to say that the hon. Gentleman immediately gave that assurance and said
  "Yes, Sir."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th December, 1964; Vol. 703, c. 1529.]
  We now find, and we hope not for doctrinaire reasons, the matter being prejudged.
  In three months' time, presumably, the results of the studies will become available with suggested solutions. If those solutions were not to be a body of this kind, or a new single body with quite different functions and powers, what would the Government then do? Would they propose amendments? I

  1187
  gather from a Written Reply given by the Secretary of State that he will consider whether he will even publish the results, and if so in what form.
  We published the conclusions of the study of central Scotland with the result that we have had the boost and growth area concept which has been of great assistance to the central area of Scotland. That area was given priority because it is the area with something like 70 per cent. of industry in Scotland and a very large majority of the population and also, unfortunately, of the unemployment. But the Highlands were not put at the end of the list, as has been suggested. They were equal second with the other parts of Scotland.
  Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us how this is consistent with answers given when questions have been raised about other areas. When my hon. Friends have asked questions about other parts of Scotland which are the subject of these studies, they have been told that the Government are awaiting the results of the studies. Presumably, therefore, the principle I have suggested, that is, waiting for the results and seeing what solutions are suggested in the reports, is being followed in respect of the other areas.
  In the general discussion which has been taking place in the north of Scotland among all those interested in the prosperity of the Highlands, there has been talk of whether the new body should have teeth, and what sort of teeth they should be. Everyone has agreed that it should have some teeth. This is why we are so astonished at two points which immediately strike one on a reading of the Bill.
  The first astonishing feature is the extent of the powers given under the Bill. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) has spoken with all his legal knowledge and experience about these powers. I merely say that the powers proposed in Clause 6, when taken with the power of compulsory purchase of land in Clause 4, appear to be excessive and unnecessary. They mean that a Government determined to take something over could purchase the land compulsorily and the buildings with it and then have power to run the business. It
  1188
  could become intolerable, if the Government wanted to make it so, for a person running a business, a factory or whatever it might be, if the land and the buildings had been taken over, not to allow the Government to purchase it.
  Therefore, to say that Clause 6 provides for the Government taking something over by agreement is not good enough when the powers under Clause 4 are taken into account as well. There is the further power under Clause 6 for the Government themselves to set up in industry, if they want to, alongside some other industry which may well have been an enterprising pioneer in the Highlands, and to put it out of business, with the support of the Exchequer and the other advantages which they would have. I mention this because, plainly, if this is to discourage private industry from coming to the Highlands, it will be a great pity.
  The second astonishing feature of the Bill is the amount of the powers, virtually all of them, which are reserved to the Secretary of State and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Permission for any project which the Board may have in mind, however small, must be sought from the Secretary of State. This makes the Board a puppet of the Government in office at the time.
  Mr. Woodburn: Do I take it from what the hon. Gentleman says that this is a pledge on behalf of the Conservative Party that, if right hon. and hon. Members opposite come back to office, they will set the Board free from any control by the Secretary of State?
  Mr. Campbell: My right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll made our position very clear in his speech, and he ended by saying that we should feel free to alter the powers, the scope and the general shape of the Board when we come into office.
  Mr. Woodburn: That is not the point.
  Mr. Campbell: These powers, which are far more extensive than could be required, are all reserved to the Secretary of State and, therefore, the Government. It is not the Board which is given powers. My right hon. Friend pointed out that what we should expect in a Board of this kind would be a body with some powers, though not all the powers set out here,

  1189
  and a discretion of its own in order to be able to set in train projects within a certain limit of money without having to go to the Secretary of State each time.
  I shall not go into the question of these powers because my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pent-lands went through many of them and we intend to pursue this in Committee, where we can examine them in detail. But this is not what those in the Highlands who have been discussing the possibility of a new board have had in mind. They certainly did not expect that it would be the Government who would be coming in under the cloak of a board and who might be taking over businesses and industries, setting up others and acquiring land and so on.
  The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) spoke about the absentee landlords. The Bill opens up the possibility of having two absentee landlords on a vast scale—the Secretary of State in Edinburgh and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in London.
  Mr. Manuel: The hon. Gentleman is dealing with the powers of the Secretary of State. Does not he agree that the Bill contains a provision for an annual report to Parliament and that, therefore, the ultimate safeguard will be the House on matters reported each year?
  Mr. Campbell: The report is to be on activities of the preceding year, and those activities will not be able to be undertaken, however small they may be, without the Board getting the permission of the Secretary of State. We believe that the Board and not the Secretary of State should have more powers. In any case we think that the powers are much wider than required and could positively be dangerous in the wrong hands.
  Mr. Ross: Does the hon. Gentleman agree or not with Clause 14(1), which says:
  "Any approval or consent of the Secretary of State required by this Act may be given in relation to a specific act of the Board or in relation to all acts of a class or description specified in the approval or consent …".
  In other words, there is scope for the Board. I am surprised that neither a lawyer who was once a Law Officer nor the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell), with all his Parliamentary experience, could see it.
  Mr. Campbell: I have seen that provision, but it refers to a class or category of project. The right hon. Gentleman's knowledge of the area we are dealing with cannot be very great if he does not realise that the kinds of project necessary and which have been carried out in the past are miscellaneous. They cover a very wide range, and authorising a certain kind of project in certain conditions in one part of the area cannot simply be applied as a whole category to cover other areas. That simply will not meet the point. We can consider this further in Committee, but we shall certainly not be satisfied by that kind of explanation.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie Mr. George Y. Mackie rose—
  Mr. Campbell: I must get on, otherwise I shall not be able to give the Minister of State time to reply. I do not know whether he hopes that that will happen or not, but I am determined to give him time. Perhaps hon. Members will assist us by not interrupting so much.
  The majority of Highlanders, as hon. Members opposite will learn, if they do not know it already, are not in favour of nationalisation. There is a sturdy independence in the Highlands.
  Mr. Mackie: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Campbell: I shall have more to say about that in a moment. This spirit is one which has to be invoked and enlisted by the Board in its dealings, and the idea of Edinburgh and London coming in and taking over will not be greeted with the co-operation that will be necessary in the Highlands if the jobs are to be done.
  Surely the Secretary of State realizes—the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) said that he himself did—that it will be the business of the Board to work with private as well as public enterprise and not to intimidate it with powers. I am surprised by the attitude of Scottish Liberals which was stated by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. George Y. Mackie). He said that he accepted these powers in their entirety. I cannot understand how anyone calling himself a Liberal can accept so casually this combination of powers over such a wide area.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. I did not say that I accepted the powers in their entirety.

  1191
  I specified the powers of compulsory purchase which I said were entirely necessary. I doubt whether the Board needs all the powers of asking for information and so on, but I agree about the necessity for the powers of compulsory purchase.
  Mr. Campbell: I am glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman has at least those reservations, but I can assure him that he said that he accepted the powers in their entirety.
  Then there is the question about the right of appeal. Because the Secretary of State is brought in right at the beginning, there is no right of appeal to him, or to some independent third party, against decisions of the Board and, therefore, of the Secretary of State, The Secretary of State said that these powers would not be used unnecessarily and that we could depend on the good sense of the Board In that case, why have them? Certainly this was not the view of his hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles, who was asking for an assurance that the Government would establish Government-run factories and plants in the Highlands. If the right hon. Gentleman is to satisfy his hon. Friend, that will not be consistent with what the right hon. Gentleman said about these powers.
  We on this side of the House might agree when the Board is appointed that its members are such that they would not abuse these powers, but as the powers are in fact in the hands of the Secretary of State, it is the Government of the time who would be exercising them and we would be very doubtful about some Governments, particularly of the complexion of the party opposite, and the use which might be made of such powers.
  Clause 3(1,b) provides for consultation with local authorities, but there is nothing to indicate that the Board need take any notice—and when I say "Board", it is the Secretary of State behind the Board the whole time who is really the prime mover—nor that the views of the local authorities will be taken into account if they disagree with some project, nor that the project will not be pushed forward none the less. It is not as straightforward as some hon. Members may think. A county council might have sincere objections, well founded on past local experience, to some scheme. In some cases it is a matter of judg-
  1192
  ment, of opinion, as to whether some new enterprise will succeed or be a damaging failure. A county council might have some alternative scheme which it regards as better. As drafted, the Bill contains no right of appeal for the county council and, in that situation, it could be ridden over roughshod.
  What will happen to bodies such as the Highland Transport Board and the Highland Fund? We have heard that the Highland Panel will disappear and be reformed as an advisory council, but what about the other two and other bodies which are now operating in the field? Are some of them to be wound up?
  The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland seemed to enjoy attacking all landowners in general, a popular sport. Presumably, he was speaking of his own constituency. I sincerely believe that it is a mistake to generalise and in this way to condemn all landowners, as the hon. Gentleman appeared to do. The estate in his constituency, which was mentioned by my right hon. Friend, has, I understand, put millions of pounds into the development of the area. I understand that at least one harbour and one ice factory have been built, while trees have been planted and the population of the area is expanding largely because of the new fishing port and the projects associated with it which the estate has supported. How does the Liberal Party expect to get the co-operation of the community, whether it be the landowners or any other section of the community, if he condemns it in this irresponsible way?
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: Which harbour has been built by private enterprise in Sutherland?
  Mr. Campbell: This is a harbour and port built by the Westminster Estate—
  Mr. Mackie: Whereabouts?
  Mr. Campbell: I will not continue with this now. I shall be glad to tell the hon. Gentleman about it afterwards. It is in his constituency. I will satisfy his curiosity later, and I will provide full details. I can assure him that what I have said is correct.
  I have five minutes in which to deal with the important question of tourism. This can never be the first industry or the only industry in the Highlands, but it is

  1193
  one on which all the resources available should be fully used. My right hon. Friend the Member for Argyll mentioned what this term covers in the way of hikers, climbers, and those interested in fishing or outdoor holidays of any kind.
  I should like to mention a particular example which has been a considerable success and which has transformed an area, the Cairngorm area. Those like myself who knew Strathspey in the 1930s and have seen it change since will remember that it was busy with visitors in the summer but very quiet in the winter. The result until about ten years ago was seasonal unemployment and depopulation. Now, activity in the summer has greatly expanded, and the Winter Sports Development Board has provided a second season and virtually solved the problem of seasonal unemployment.
  This is an excellent example of local initiative and contribution to a common local cause. The Cairngorm Winter Sports Development Board was set up by subscriptions from hotels and the local community and with the assistance of Government grants under the physical recreation legislation. There was cooperation by various authorities such as the Forestry Commission and the county council, which helped with the necessary roads. There was a risk that this would riot catch on, that people in Britain would not be interested enough in winter sports to come. But it has in fact gone from strength to strength.
  If the Secretary of State, through the new Board, were to try to take over the Cairngorm Winter Sports Development Board, he would meet a great deal of opposition, the fiercest probably from myself because its members happen to be my constituents. What has it experienced in the last five months of Labour Government—[Interruption.] The equipment and the chairlift are in the constituency of the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Russell Johnston), but the Board and its chairman and members and office have always been in my constituency, which is the centre of this area. But I am speaking generally.
  What has been the Board's experience in the first 100 days of the Labour Government? It has had to pay a bill of nearly£2,000 extra because of the 15 per cent. surcharge on equipment for the extension of the chairlift which can be
  1194
  obtained only from abroad and could not possibly be made in this country.
  My mention of the Board would not be complete without my saying that one of the difficulties which it has run into is an unexpected one. It has had to invoke the contributions and enterprise of the local community, but one of the difficulties about expansion is not the sort which Government Departments expect. It is because of a possible conflict with bird life on the hills and the possible extinction of, for example, a charming bird called the dotterel, which is so much a Highlander that it nests only above 3,000 ft. This sort of matter is important. After all, 26,000 visitors saw the ospreys in a period of about two months last year. This sort of thing plays its part in the prosperity in the area. It is important, therefore, that this kind of factor should be taken into account. It is because the Board, being a local board, understands this and has been paying the greatest attention to it that it has the respect and admiration of the local community.
  I have made it clear that we will examine the Bill extremely closely. We will support any schemes which we are satisfied will help the Highlands. In judging the contents of the Bill, we will be actuated by what is in the best interests of the Highlands and Islands.
  Mr. W. Baxter: Before the hon. Gentleman resumes his seat, will he tell the House exactly where the harbour has been built by this Westminster Estate Company?
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Willis.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. George Willis)rose—
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: On a point of order. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to accuse an hon. Member of not knowing that an estate company had built a harbour in his constituency and then to refuse to name the harbour?
  Mr. Speaker: Yes.
  Mr. Willis: I hope to pick up most of the points made by the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell), excluding those that he addressed to the Liberal Party and also the sort of constituency interpolation at the end of

  1195
  his speech. This has been a rather remarkable day because, if I am not mistaken, we have witnessed a change of heart on the part of hon. Members opposite. To make that change of heart more acceptable to those on the benches opposite and, apparently, to those outside the House, we have had the unusual spectacle of three Opposition Front Bench speakers.
  This is the third stage of the Bill. The first stage was when we announced in the Queen's Speech that we intended to introduce the Bill. Shortly afterwards, the former Minister of State, with his customery brash effrontery, made a statement claiming, or at least trying to claim, credit for the idea. After that, we also had from the former Minister of State, within a few weeks before Christmas, a statement to the effect that the party—one assumes that he was speaking for the Tory Party—was wholehartedly behind the conception of a Highland Development Board.
  However, when we reached the second stage of this process through the House—namely, the publication of the Bill—the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble) entertained us with some of his rather colourful fulminations against the Bill. We heard a great deal about loss of freedom, wholesale nationalisation, Marxian ancestry and all the rest. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have a colourful scriptwriter when he speaks outside the House.
  Apparently, the right hon. Gentleman has not yet learned that most of the things which he and his party boasted about at the General Election as having been accomplished by the right hon. Gentleman were the product of Marxian ancestry. Most of them were produced by public enterprise. The figures to which the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) referred, the money spent on forestry, hydro-electric schemes, and so on, all related to public enterprise. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have boasted a great deal about Dounreay, but this is another example of public enterprise. In fact, there is very little about which hon. Gentlemen opposite boast which has not been the result of public enterprise or public money. The right hon. Gentleman
  1196
  ought to sort out his ideas before indulging in this kind of thing.
  At one stage the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire was so keen about this that he wanted parts of Perthshire to be included in the area covered by the Highland Development Board. However, on 24th February he told the House that his enthusiasm had abated, not because of the powers in the Bill, but because of the paltry sum of money involved. In fact, he said on that occasion that so long as the money was being doled out he did not mind about the power. "Never mind the power, give us the money", seems to be his attitude.
  Although hon. Gentlemen opposite consider that the sum of money involved is paltry, they have decided, with that curious attitude often adopted by them, that this Measure must be debated on the Floor of the House. This schizophrenic approach of hon. Gentlemen opposite has been most entertaining, and it has been exemplified by the right hon. Gentleman. He still has not told us whether he wants Argyll to be in or out of the Bill.
  Mr. Noble: Wait and see.
  Mr. Willis: The right hon. Gentleman went on to tell us that the one thing that we must not do is to destroy the confidence of those operating in the Highlands, and he threatened that when his party was returned to power it would regard itself as free to alter the functions of the Board and to alter its shape. I can think of nothing more calculated to destroy confidence in the Highlands than that attitude of mind.
  As I say, I am surprised at the schizophrenic approach of hon. Gentlemen opposite. For more than 10 years they have rejected the idea of a Highland Development Board. The Leader of the Liberal Party raised the matter in the House 12 years ago, and the idea was turned down. It has been raised time and time again, but it has always been rejected by the party opposite. I took the opportunity of looking up what the Conservative Party said about this in its election manifesto. It said:
  "As promised in the White Paper on the Development of Central Scotland, a survey of the Highlands and Islands is now in progress. Whatever opportunities emerge from this investigation will be fostered by a Unionist Government."

  1197
  I cannot think of anything more meaningless than that.
  Dealing with forestry, the same document said:
  "The Forestry Commission makes an important long-term contribution to the Highland economy, but private woodlands produce about 60 per cent. of Scottish timber. We shall give them every encouragement."
  I have never read a more clever piece of political dishonesty than that. Let us examine it. The implication is that private woodlands are the things which really matter, but the fact is that private woodlands amount to less than half the area of State forests in the area.
  The pamphlet says:
  "We shall give them every encouragement."
  Who is to be given this encouragement? The right hon. Gentleman was aggrieved this afternoon because he said that he had been accused of allowing the programme to be cut. The right hon. Gentleman agreed to a cut in the forestry programme. We could not get the figures last July, because the right hon. Gentleman refused to give them to us. I now have the figures. They show that the right lion. Gentleman sanctioned a cut of 20 per cent. in the Scottish programme, but he refused to tell the House and the people of Scotland about that. During his last two years in office the right hon. Gentleman allowed a cut of 12 per cent. to take place in the Highland planting programme. I tell him for his benefit that although he is strangely interested in private forestry he also allowed a cut to take place in the same period—from 1960 to 1963—of 3,500 acres per annum.
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Member is indulging in a typical piece of political dishonesty. In the first place, the statement made in the manifesto is absolutely true. We intended to encourage both. The hon. Member went on to use a very curious phrase when he said that I allowed a cut to take place. These were the Forestry Commission's figures, and not mine.
  Mr. Willis: This was approved by the Secretary of State. I will give him the facts that I have. I do not want to read them to the House. The right hon. Member has probably been discomfited sufficiently for my purpose without my reading extracts, but the fact is that he and his hon. Friend the Member for
  1198
  Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart), in the forestry debate in July and at Question Time on the Floor of the House, refused to say what the programmes were. He knew—or if he did not know he was not doing his job—that those programmes had been cut to the extent that I mentioned. That is the true position about forestry. The right hon. Gentleman has no reason to feel aggrieved when we complain of his having allowed this to take place.
  The arguments about the Board have centred around its powers. Once again we have this amazing dichotomy of thought among hon. Members opposite. My hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) drew attention to the fact that the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) commenced by talking about the unnecessary and outrageous powers of the Board but ended by asking that powers should be given to it to do half a dozen things that it was not already being given powers to do.
  The right hon. Member for Argyll gave us a long list of the powers that he thought the Board should have. Having made a speech in which he cast a great deal of doubt upon the powers being given to the Board, he went on to suggest that it should be put in charge of forestry, the operations of the White Fish Authority, the Herring Board, the Highland Fund, B.O.T.A.C., transport subsidies, local authorities, county development officers, and I do not know what else. The right hon. Gentleman ought to make up his mind. On the one hand, apparently, we are giving the Board too great powers, but on the other, we should have included all these other things.
  Mr. Noble: I know that the hon. Member does not want to mislead the House. The figures as given by his right hon. Friend in relation to forestry in Scotland and in the Highlands show that in the Highlands the programme rose from 1,400,000 in 1962, to 1,500,000 in 1963 and then to 1,536,000 in 1964.
  Mr. Ross: Is this in money?
  Mr. Noble: Yes, it is in money. If that is a cut it is a cut in the same sense that the hon. Member often talked about in school buildings.
  Mr. Willis: Money is not production. It was producing less in terms of planting. The right hon. Gentleman should appreciate that fact. The figures that I have given are correct and they have been checked over and over again. Anyway, the right hon. Gentleman should come up to date in regard to what I am now discussing, namely, the fact that he demanded all these extra powers for the Board. He can take it from me that to have attempted to give the Board all these powers would have aroused an opposition which would have made the introduction of the Bill almost impossible. The right hon. Gentleman knows that, or if he does not, then he does not know the Highlands as well as I thought he did.
  This is an amazing sort of split-mindedness among hon. Members opposite concerning the matter of powers. They cannot make up their minds whether the powers are too great or too little. I am not surprised that this discussion about the powers should have arisen, and I think it proper that there should be a discussion. All the powers given to the Board in this Bill are precedented by previous Acts of Parliament. The rather unusual feature of this Bill is that the powers are being combined in one authority. Usually these powers are given to an authority for a specific purpose. Here they are being given to an authority which has a large number of purposes. Because of this it has to have a combination of powers such as is provided in the Bill. I think it right that this should be discussed.
  My first point is that these powers are all precedented. We gave a great deal of thought to requests repeatedly made to us that if we were to set up a board we should give it teeth to do the job. We found that all these powers were justified and we shall justify them during the Committee stage discussions. If any of these powers are withdrawn, the power of the Board will be reduced accordingly. The more we take from the Board the powers which we propose to give to it the less effective the Board will be in its operations.
  The right hon. Gentleman and the law officer opposite, the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie)—who seems to be such a prize
  1200
  for the Tory Party that he has trotted out even in the middle of the debate—both raised this question of the combination of Clauses 4, 6 and 11 and how this would be nationalisation by the back door. There are safeguards in the Bill. The procedures in connection with the compulsory acquisition of land are the customary procedures and all are subject to proper public inquiry. In addition they have to be approved by the Secretary of State. That applies to the compulsory acquisition of land. If the Government or the Board were trying to acquire a business under these powers that would have to be approved by the Treasury, and the Secretary of State and the Treasury are responsible to the House of Commons. There are a number of safeguards.
  Mr. Wylie: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is an entirely different situation where on appeal to the Secretary of State the right hon. Gentleman is holding the balance in the public interest between the promoter of the compulsory purchase order and the objector to it? If the Secretary of State is concerned in a compulsory purchase order he is sitting in judgment on his own action.
  Mr. Willis: This happens in other spheres, I am afraid, with regard to compulsory purchase. The point the hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman made was, what could be done as a result of a combination of these Clauses. I am pointing out the safeguards. The Government as a whole would be doing this, and if the Government want to nationalise an industry they nationalise it without these powers. The Government of the right hon. Gentleman introduced, as their first Bill after 1959, a Measure which went a considerable way towards nationalising the shipping services. The right hon. Gentleman did that. He did not need to go round the corner. He did it in this House. These safeguards are, of course, in the Bill.
  The second criticism, which has been rather widespread, is the criticism that the Board has no powers. Once again, hon. Gentlemen do not seem to be able to make up their minds. All the powers, they say, are in the hands of the Secretary of State. I understand that the hon. and learned Member for Pent-lands made a speech in which he

  1201
  developed this argument and asked why we should appoint a body corporate which had no powers. In fact, of course, all the powers rest with the Board. The Board buys and acquires land; the Board becomes responsible for its administration. The Board lends money, not the Secretary of State.
  Mr. Wylie: Has the hon. Gentleman read this Bill?
  Mr. Willis: Of course, I have read the Bill. Apparently the hon. Member has not read it, or, if he has read it, he has not understood it. That is the trouble.
  The Board has the powers, not the Secretary of State. All the Secretary of State does is to approve a particular scheme; the Board puts it into operation. The Board owns all the land, not the Secretary of State. Therefore, the real power here is in the hands of the Board.
  There has been a good deal of corn-plaint about the fact that the Secretary of State comes in rather too much. We do not agree that where we have brought in the Secretary of State, an undue requirement is placed on the Board. We are faced with a clear choice—either a large-scale, comprehensive authority such as the Liberal Party recommended, which would supersede and override existing authorities; or the course which we have chosen, that of providing a body which, while able to view the Highlands' problems as a whole and to initiate and co-ordinate measures for dealing with them, relies on the existing local authorities and other statutory bodies to play their full part in the process of rehabilitation. Once this choice was made, it seemed clear to us that, because of the statutory and administrative position, the Secretary of State should play a focal part in clearing with the Departments, statutory and local authority, matters affecting their interests in all projects and proposals.
  Nevertheless, the Board will be far from circumscribed or hamstrung by the need to seek the Secretary of State's approval. In its special operations, such approval is obviously necessary, and I should have thought that it would have commended itself to hon. Members opposite. Amongst these operations are the proposals to acquire land or to run a business, particularly in the case of land, where compulsion is involved. Once having received approval to particular proposals and pro-
  1202
  jects, the Board will be largely left to get on with its work, such as erecting buildings, doing works on land, providing financial assistance within the generally approved arrangements and other matters of that kind. I might answer here the question raised by one or two Members about the financial arrangements for industry. In this connection, the Board will operate within the scheme drawn up and approved in the same way as, and probably in a more extended fashion than, the Highland Fund operates in connection with its Treasury loans schemes. It will have the freedom to give loans without running to the Secretary of State every time.
  I will deal with the point relating to money. Several things have been said about the £150,000 which is mentioned. This is provided simply until the end of this financial year. The Board will not be established until August, September or thereabouts. It has a few months to run, during which time we expect that it will be occupied with engaging its staff and generally settling to its work. This is why we did not expect that the expenditure involved would be more than the sum mentioned. The other figure which has been frequently quoted is, of course, only an estimate. The fact is that if the Board draws up schemes of a satisfactory kind and can obtain the Secretary of State's approval for these schemes, and if we can afford the schemes in terms of our national economy, against which we measure everything, they will be approved whether they come within the £1 million or not. There is no limit within the Bill.
  It has been said that we should have waited for the report of the study group. We do not think that we are prejudicing the report by acting now, because I understand that these study groups have been concerned mainly with the infrastructure, the type of industrial development which is appropriate to the area, the character and so on. As far as I know, study groups have not been concerned with the machinery of administration. The hon. Member for Moray and Nairn ought to know this better than anybody, because he was responsible for setting them up.
  Mr. Noble: Will the hon. Member bear in mind that this was one of the very things which I asked that study group to look at?
  Mr. Willis: We are just learning this. We did not know. We are under the impression that the groups are concerned with the matters which I have mentioned. The setting up of a Board should not prejudice that consideration. In fact, it should be a help to have the Board set up now in order that whatever is suggested can be considered by the Board in conjunction with the consideration of the overall plan for Scotland, and the Board ought to be able to commence its work much more quickly as the result of the work of the study group. I do not think that we have prejudiced any issue. We have acted wisely in this matter and in a manner which should help rather than hinder development.
  The question has been raised over and over again of the sums of money which are being spent in the Highlands. What we are doing will not limit the sums being spent in the Highlands. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, in the normal course of events the sums being spent in the Highlands through local authorities and statutory bodies are more likely to increase than to decrease. The sums involved this year total £33 million—the Answer was given in the House the other day£and next year, according to the published Estimate, they will total £35 million. There is nothing to stop that expenditure from continuing. My right hon. Friend pointed out that another £76,000 is being spent through the Crofters Commission in respect of grants. This will not be hindered at all. What we are proposing for the Board is new money. That is the important point to remember.
  For many years the idea of a Highland Development Board has been discussed, and generally even those most disinclined to accept it have, with reluctance and qualifications, been compelled to accept the idea. I understand that the Opposition do not intend to vote against it tonight. For our part, we have long since accepted the idea that if the vast area which we call the Highlands and Islands is to be fully developed, if it is to provide its people with proper living standards and their children with opportunities, if it is to play its full part in the steady economic growth of our country, and if it is to be developed to allow all our people the fullest opportunity for the enjoyment of its unparalleled recreational facilities and its incomparable
  1204
  scenery, then a body such as is envisaged in the Bill is necessary, and from the general tenor of the debate we are encouraged to hope that the House will agree with us in this proposal.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  HIGHLAND DEVELOPMENT (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
  [Dr. HORACE KING in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the economic and social development of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in making payments in respect of the expenses of a Highland Development Board or a Highland Development Consultative Council established under the said Act;

  (b) any administrative expenses incurred by the Secretary of State under the said Act.—[Mr. Ross.]

  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. Forbes Hendry: In all the years I have been in the House of Commons, I have never seen such a deplorable Money Resolution. Such education as I have had on the subject of Money Resolutions has principally derived from the Secretary of State and the Minister of State, who have attacked Money Resolutions over the years principally on the ground that they were too narrow. They have certainly given an exhibition of their idea of a Money Resolution tonight; in producing one with greater width than I have ever seen in my years in Parliament.
  What they are asking tonight is, in fact, for the Committee to give carte blanche to the Secretary of State to

  1205
  spend unnamed sums of money for unnamed purposes. Indeed, the Money Resolution states:
  "… for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the economic and social development of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in making payments in respect of the expenses of a Highland Development Board or a Highland Development Consultative Council established under the said Act;

  (b) any administrative expenses incurred by the Secretary of State under the said Act.

  There is not a word in it to indicate on what the money is to be spent. I would be out of order if I were to discuss the details of the Bill which we have just debated. But the Committee is entitled to know what the right hon. Gentleman intends to do with this money, since he has given us no details at all. I have never seen such wide powers being sought in a Money Resolution.
  It is true that the initiative in expenditure rests with the Crown, but the House of Commons has a duty to the people of this country, the taxpayers, to make sure that the money raised from them is properly spent. In being asked to recommend this Money Resolution, we are entitled to know how much it is proposed to spend and on what it is proposed to spend it. We have the most extraordinary proposition in that we should
  "… authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament …"
  to meet
  "… any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in making payments …"
  Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea of what these payments might be? I would be out of older to refer to the Bill—to which, presumably, the Money Resolution relates—but is it for the administrative expenses of the Board, as it would appear, and, if so, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have had no indication of what these administrative expenses are likely to total?
  We know that the Secretary of State proposes to set up a Board of a certain number of members. We know that he intends to pay those members, but we have had no indication—and we are entitled to know this—from the Secretary of State how much it is expected this
  1206
  Board will be paid. How much is the chairman to be paid? How much is the vice-chairman to be paid? How much are the members to be paid? What staff is the Board to have to carry out these extremely wide powers, of which we are told nothing in the Money Resolution?
  Is the Board to have an ad hoc staff or is it to be one recruited by the Board? If the latter, are they to be civil servants and, if so, what arrangements are to be made by the Board and the Treasury for their payment? What is the nature of the staff to be provided by the Board? A very great deal of public money could be wasted in this way. We are entitled to know whether the chairman of the Board will have a Rolls-Royce motor car. There is nothing here to prevent that, and nothing whatever to indicate what the money will be spent on.
  I could go on at great length about the administrative expenses of the Board, but the Committe might prefer me to go on to something even more important and even more possibly productive of waste. In the course of the Second Reading debate, I understand that a lot was said about the acquisition of land. This Board is seemingly to have the power to acquire land. There is nothing in this Money Resolution to restrict it in any way in regard to the land it is to acquire. Is it to acquire land throughout the whole of our crofting counties? If not, to what extent would it be restricted—
  The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Samuel Storey): Order. The acquisition of land does not arise on the payment of expenses.
  Mr. Hendry: That may be so, Sir Samuel, but I understood the Bill to give certain powers to this Board to acquire land. If the Board has no means with which to acquire land, it is rather difficult to understand how it will do it. The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill to which this Money Resolution relates, states:
  "These expenses may be incurred under one of the following heads …
  (b) expenses incurred in the exercise of the Board's powers under Clause 4 (acquisition of land) …".
  With very great respect, therefore, it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman envisages the acquisition of land

  1207
  as part of the expenses for which we are being asked in this Money Resolution—
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot discuss the acquisition of land. He can only discuss the expenses incurred.
  Mr. Hendry: In that case, Sir Samuel, I think I am entitled to know from the right hon. Gentleman what he proposes to spend on this land, and the extent to which he envisages making this expenditure on land. Far be it from me to inquire into what land he intends to acquire, but it is rather important to know exactly what arrangements he proposes to make for the payment for that land. The section of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum dealing with the Bill's financial effects says that part relates to expenses including the expense of building, and so on. Far be it from me to ask what building, but the Committee is entitled to know approximately what, taking one year with another, the right hon. Gentleman envisages spending on buildings.
  Then we come to a most extraordinary thing under the heading "Financial Effects of the Bill" as set forth in the Explanatory Memorandum, where reference is made to the carrying on of business. This is a most extraordinary power to give to any Board set up by a Secretary of State, and the Committee is entitled to know whether the Resolution envisages the paying to the Board of losses incurred in running a business. This is a most serious matter, because here we have the House of Commons being asked to authorise the expenditure of taxpayers' money on the running of business—
  Mr. Hector Hughes: On a point of order. Is not the hon. Gentleman seeking to discuss the terms of the Bill by a subterfuge, by pretending that he is discussing merely the Money Resolution? He is dragging in various considerations arising under the Bill.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I think that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) so far is keeping within the Ruling I have already given.
  Mr. Hendry: I am obliged to you, Sir Samuel, because, even if the hon. and learned Gentleman is not, I at any rate am very perplexed about the extent of public money which the Secretary of State proposes to apply in making good the losses to be incurred by the Board in running businesses. This is a most serious thing. After all, the money which it is proposed to spend is the hard-earned income of the British taxpayers, including, I am certain, every Member of Parliament. I am most concerned about this. I hope that the Secretary of State will give us a very full explanation of these losses which he must envisage meeting out of the taxpayers' money.
  According to the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill, the Board—
  Mr. Archie Manuel: On a point of order. Sir Samuel, I should like you to clear my own mind on this point with which the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) is dealing. Is it in order to deal with hypothetical losses which can be assumed by the hon. Gentleman in his imagination? Can we deal with a hypothetical position, in other words?
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West is perfectly entitled to inquire what expenses can arise under the Money Resolution.
  Mr. Manuel: Further to that point of order.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: On a point of order.
  Mr. Manuel: Sit down.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. The Chair can deal with only one point of order at a time. Mr. Manuel.
  Mr. Manuel: I was not challenging the right of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West to inquire about certain administrative expenses or money which may be spent under the terms of the Money Resolution. What the hon. Gentleman was dealing with was a hypothetical situation in which losses may occur. As this is entirely hypothetical, I would ask you, Sir Samuel, to consider whether it is out of order.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Any example given my an hon. Member is bound to

  1209
  be hypothetical. So far, I have not heard anything which is not in order.
  Mr. Hendry: Thank you, Sir Samuel. After all, what the Committee is being asked to do tonight is not a hypothetical thing. We are asked to give a grant of money of unknown amount for unknown purposes for the Secretary of State for Scotland to spend or squander as he thinks fit. That is no hypothetical proposition.
  What I was pointing out to the Committee when the point of order was raised was that the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill, in its description of the financial effects of the Bill, which is what we are discussing, says this:
  "These expenses"—
  that is, expenses which may be incurred by the Board—
  "may be incurred under one of the following heads".
  Then, cutting out a lot of verbiage—
  Mr. Hector Hughes: On a point of order. Has not the hon. Gentleman repeated the same arguments and the same presuppositions many times over? Therefore, is he not guilty of tedious repetition?
  The Deputy-Chairman: When I consider the hon. Gentleman guilty of tedious repetition, I will call his attention to it.
  Mr. Hendry: Now that you have dealt with that point of order, Sir Samuel, perhaps I may proceed with my argument. My argument is that the expenses which may be incurred by the Board include, among other things, so we are told, expenses connected with the carrying on of a business. If one is carrying on a business, one does so either to make a profit or to make a loss. If one makes a profit, one does not incur any expenses which must be met out of moneys provided by Parliament. That can happen only if one makes a loss.
  I turn to something entirely different.
  10.15 p.m.
  Among the other extraordinary matters which are described in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum giving rise to expenses are "advisory and other services". Are these advisory services to be given free; what sort of advisory ser-
  1210
  vices are they, and, if they are not to be free, who is to get the benefit of these advisory services at the expense of the taxpayers?
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman cannot discuss the advisory services. He may only discuss the expense of those services.
  Mr. Hendry: I was just about to come to that, Sir Samuel. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to explain what he intends to spend on these advisory services and to give some sort of breakdown of the distribution of this expenditure between different sections of Her Majesty's lieges. We have an absolutely firm duty in this House to look after the taxpayers' money and not to allow any member of the Government to spend the taxpayers' money without giving some sort of an account.
  There is, however, a much more serious state of affairs. We find in the Memorandum that these expenses may include, of all things, the
  "giving of financial assistance by way of grant or loan …"
  The Committee is entitled to know how much is to be given in loans and to whom the loans are to be given.
  Mr. David Griffiths: To the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Hendry: I should be very surprised if they were to be given to me. To whom is the right hon. Gentleman going to give the loans, for what purpose, what amount, and what rate of interest is he going to get for the taxpayer?
  Then, horror upon horror, we find that the right hon. Gentleman is to give not only loans but grants. Who will receive these grants? I cannot imagine that I shall. Obviously, the right hon. Gentleman will give them to somebody, and the Committee is entitled to know who are to be the recipients of these grants, what is to be the amount in each case and what is to be the cumulative amount. After all, we are faced here with a request for a carte blanche to spend any amount of taxpayers' money in any way the right hon. Gentleman thinks fit. This is a most serious matter. Never in the years in which I have been a Member of this House have I seen a Money Resolution

  1211
  so carelessly and so widely drawn. I suggest this is a most disgraceful thing, and the right hon. Gentleman has got to answer to the Committee for his proposals.
  Mr. William Baxter: Whilst I cannot agree with all that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) has said, I agree with him to this extent that we should be concerned with Exchequer money and should see that it is wisely and sensibly spent. I am sure that is a sentiment with which most of the Committee would concur.
  If there are any difficulties in the way of providing the money I believe there is a way of overcoming them. It is a method to which the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West has not given much consideration. As I understand it, we are at the moment spending in the region of £45 million for a Polaris base in the Holy Loch—
  The Deputy-Chairman: The Polaris base does not arise on this Money Resolution.
  Mr. Baxter: I quite agree, Sir Samuel, but this is not the point. This is a hypothetical method of getting the money, if I may say so. You have previously ruled that hypothetical cases are permissible in argument—
  The Deputy-Chairman: What I ruled was that the illustration was relevant to what we were discussing.
  Mr. Baxter: What is relevant to what we are discussing now is the wherewithal to make these monetary grants. If the wherewithal is not available from any other source it may be wise to use a hypothetical case to show where the money might be obtained.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. What we are dealing with is the expenditure and not the wherewithal with which it will be paid.
  Mr. Baxter: I must bow to your Ruling, Sir Samuel, but I have tried to make the point. I agree that it is a pity that we should question expenditure on such an organisation. I would prefer that the organisation should have embraced the whole of Scotland, but
  1212
  that is by the way. I would not be so conservative, however, as to say that while there is not in the Bill the all-embracing power for which I had hoped, I would not accept that the money should be made available for even part of Scotland. I accept that in the Money Resolution the money should be provided for this part of Scotland which has been proved in the debate to be in dire need of assistance. I did not have the pleasure of catching your eye, Sir Samuel, in the previous debate, but I have had the opportunity now to put before the Committee my point of view that there should be a new approach not only to the problems of the Highlands but the problems of the whole of Scotland.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. The hon. Member cannot make this Money Resolution an excuse for making his speech on Second Reading.
  Mr. Baxter: I say with respect that I am trying to point out the reasons why the money should be provided under the Money Resolution although the Bill did not go as far as I had hoped it would go.
  Again, not being of a conservative turn of mind, I bless the Money Resolution but hope that when we come to the Report stage of the Bill on the Floor of the House I may have the pleasure of catching your eye to express a point of view which has not been put forward so far about the general development of my native land.
  Mr. Edward M. Taylor: I should like to support my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry). My remarks will be brief and relevant. The last thing that I want to do, and the many hon. Members who wish to follow me, is to detain the Committee unduly.
  I was appalled to read the Money Resolution. As a new Member it seems to me appalling that we are prepared to give such wide powers and to authorise any expenditure incurred in this connection. It has come to my notice that when as new Members we complain about powers of this sort, it is frequently said to us that exactly the same thing was included in Resolutions

  1213
  put forward by the previous Administration. It may be that this argument will be advanced in this case, but I respectfully submit that on no occasion has any such Resolution been passed where the powers given in it are so flexible and wide as those given here.
  In the circumstances, I feel that it would be dangerous to pass the Resolution in its present form when, as we see from the Explanatory Memorandum, it has been estimated that the expenditure involved will rise to only £1 million after the passing of three years. On the basis of the information which we have, this estimate cannot be right, and if it is intended to use the powers in the Bill in any way the estimate must be wildly inaccurate.
  The Minister of State, in winding up on Second Reading, said that this figure was only an estimate and he admitted that no limit was placed by the Bill on the amount of expenditure that would take place. If we passed several Bills like this, in which various Ministers had the power to spend a great deal of money and they indicated that the amount would be very small but they actually spent a great deal, there would be a real danger of undermining the economy. What guidance can we and the Secretary of State have as to the amount of money that will be spent in consequence of the Bill? There are three possible guides which would help the Committee to decide whether it would be right to pass this Resolution.
  The first guide would be some indication of the direction of policy to be pursued by the Board when established. We have had no such indication. When the Highland Survey has not yet issued its report and recommendations and the Board itself has not been appointed, it might, perhaps, be unfair for the Secretary of State to be asked to give too broad an indication of what powers would be involved and what expenditure would be incurred as a consequence, but it is only right, in considering this Money Resolution, that we should be told something of the expenditure involved and of the powers which will be used. If we could be told, for instance, that the policy of the Board would be based on growth areas, on the creation of new employment or on the continuation of the existing pattern of employment in the Highlands, this
  1214
  would give us some indication of the amount of money to be spent. But we have been told nothing of the kind.
  The second guide would come if we had a clear statement of the extent to which the Government intend to use the powers avaliable to them under the Bill. Knowing the Government, I feel that they will probably try to use these powers rightly, and, if they do, the amount of money spent—
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is going too far in discussing policy.
  Mr. Taylor: With respect, Sir Samuel, I feel that we ought not to pass such a Resolution as this without knowing what amount of money will be spent in fact. My hon. Friend has said that the estimate given in the Explanatory Memorandum must be wrong, and my arguments are genuinely meant to support that contention. However, I pass to my next point.
  Although we have had no indication of the amount which will be spent, we could quite well have been told about some small items. No idea of the amounts to be spent has been given and we have been given no estimate apart from the global sum of£1 million in three years. To illustrate my doubts, I should like to refer to some of the moneys which have been spent in the Highlands over the past few years. I feel that if these powers are to be used at all—
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member must not refer to money which has been spent already. We are dealing with authority to spend money.
  Mr. Taylor: I bow to your Ruling, and I pass to my next point, Sir Samuel.
  It is dangerous to pass this Resolution for this further reason. The ever-increasing amount of Government expenditure has stemmed from an over-ready approval of too many Resolutions as loosely worded and as flexible as this. We were told by one right hon. Gentleman opposite recently that Government expenditure next year will go up by£600 million, and it has been said that it will rise further by 4¼per cent. in real terms each year thereafter. One reason is that we are passing too many Resolutions of this kind embodying wide and comprehensive powers. In the circumstances, we

  1215
  must have a more accurate indication of the actual sums involved. This lack of specific control or lack of guidance from the Secretary of State as to what he thinks the maximum amount may possibly be makes it most unwise to accept the Resolution.
  The essential purpose of the Bill is to help the Highlands to play a greater part in the economy of the whole country. If we pass this Resolution, with unlimited powers to spend money, that purpose may be endangered. One of the main reasons why I say it is wrong to pass the Resolution is that the Government have made a very bad estimate. Clearly, if we are to achieve anything by the Bill, it will be necessary to spend a great deal more. To explain this, I would point out the policies which have recently been announced by the Government which have hit the Highlands so hard, such as the increase in petrol duty.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. We cannot discuss the petrol duty.
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Taylor: I have no wish to do so, Sir Samuel, but it is measures like the increase in duty which are damaging the Highlands so much and clearly the amount that we shall have to spend in bringing them back to stability will be much more than estimated in the Financial Memorandum.
  Government expenditure has continued to rise far too quickly over recent years and this has undermined the economy to a substantial extent. If we continue to pass Resolutions like this, there will be a real danger of the increase in expenditure getting out of hand. For this reason, I and my hon. Friends who wish to contribute to this debate are very concerned. It would be wrong to give these powers because they are so wide.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. We are not discussing powers now.
  Mr. Taylor: It is wrong to give these powers but we have had no clear indication of the maximum amount of money involved. We are very concerned about this and I hope that we can be given a clear indication from the Government as to the maximum they expect to be involved, particularly in view of the policies they are pursuing in other direc-
  1216
  tions, which are damaging the Highlands and the whole of Scotland.
  Mr. George Younger: I am most reluctant to detain the Committee at this advanced hour but there are a few points I want to make and I ask you, Sir Samuel, not to hesitate to call me to order if I should inadvertently stray from the narrow path.
  To what extent is the money we are being asked to vote to be devoted to the improvement of tourism in the High lands? Is there any possibility of its being used for improving tourism and the standard of hotel accommodation?
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. We cannot discuss tourism on the Financial Resolution.
  Mr. Younger: I beg your pardon, Sir Samuel. I thought that it was in order to discuss the purpose for which this money may be used. I understood that that is the point of the Financial Resolution. I hope that some amount from these funds will be spent on tourism. Is it not in order to point this out?
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman can discuss it only within the terms of the Financial Resolution.
  Mr. Younger: Is it in order to ask to what extent the money will be used for such provision? This is involved in the Resolution and I think we are entitled to know in particular terms for what the money is to be spent. As I understand it, other speakers in this debate have been making precisely these points as regards other matters in the Resolution. I ask you to guide me on this point and tell me if it is out of order.
  The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman should refer to Clause 16, where he will see what it is in order to discuss.
  Mr. Younger: The point I wished to make is that I hope that the money we are being asked to vote will not be devoted to matters other than tourism. Tourism—
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. We cannot discuss tourism.
  Mr. Younger: I beg your pardon, Sir Samuel. In that case I will move on to my second point on which I desire information. The money we are being

  1217
  asked to vote will be spent in various ways by the Board and I think that it is in order to ask for some indication as to whether the whole sum is to be expended on the running expenses of the Board or whether some of it is to be pumped into the Highlands for improving various industries and services which we have been discussing earlier today.
  In this connection I should like to know whether it is the Government's intention to have close regard in the spending of this money to all the separate areas a the Highlands, or whether it is intended to concentrate on particular areas.
  The Deputy-Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is going far too wide of the Money Resolution.
  Mr. Younger: I am very grateful for your guidance, Sir Samuel.
  Finally, to what extent will this money be used for the remuneration of the Board? This is a matter of great concern. Salaries paid to the Board should be adequate to attract the best possible people for the job. I hope that the Government will take note of this and will not skimp the provision of these moneys, but will get the best possible people.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross): I welcome the arrival of three interested Scots to the club of those interested in Money Resolutions. I am the last person in the world to complain about people taking an interest in this subject. All I will say is that I knew my job a little better than they knew theirs. I am prepared to give advice to anybody on how to speak to a Money Resolution without getting out of order. I cannot congratulate the three hon. Gentlemen who have spoken tonight, but it was a brave effort.
  I want especially to mention the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry). The last time he was directly concerned with a Money Resolution he was so ignorant about it that he was not even here in time. It was his own Private Member's Bill and had it not been for my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), who is not accustomed to speaking on such occasions, the hon. Gentleman would have been in great difficulty.
  1218
  I am surprised by what has been said. I have always thought that the most important thing about a Money Resolution was the extent to which it cribbed discussion in Committee. I give hon. Members this free advice from the benefit of my experience. If we had specified how much was to be spent on this and that, we might as well not have had a Committee stage, because there would have been no room for the free play of initiative such as we have seen tonight. The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) was worried about the adequacy of salaries. If I had specified salaries, he would not have been able to discuss any changes in the proposed salaries.
  He should welcome the fact that I have done what I have asked every Minister in the past to do—and gone unheeded—to give room for discussion in Committee so that we could suggest Amendments which were not out of order because of the Money Resolution. It was generosity to back bench Members which determined the form of the Money Resolution. Instead of being thanked, I am criticised. My own Member of Parliament said that he was reluctant to speak and then proceeded to tell me in so many words that it was not worth his while speaking because he did not know what he meant to say. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) has been rising in my estimation as a Tory prepared to work. He said that he would speak shortly and be relevant and in order and then he immediately stepped out of order.
  In the short time that is left to me, I should like to deal with some of the points which have been raised. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West said that it was deplorable that there should be unnamed sums for unnamed purposes. Admittedly, no sum of money is specified in the Money Resolution, but the hon. Member is quite wrong to say that the purposes are unnamed, because we have just given a Second Reading to a Bill which includes the purposes. That is why we cannot talk about the purposes in a Money Resolution, because the House has just agreed in principle to those purposes. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will mend his ways and be a little less loose. I know that as a lawyer he is inclined to be rather loose in his language, but he must get out of these rather slipshod legal ways.

  1219
  I was asked what I intended to do with this money. Let the hon. Member look at the Money Resolution again. It uses these words:
  "any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in making payments in respect of the expenses of a Highland Development Board or a Highland Development Consultative Council established under the said Act".
  There is the hon. Member's answer. I shall give the moneys to the Highland Development Board and to the Highland Development Consultative Council which will be "established under the said Act". This is what we have been discussing all day.
  It is a pity that the hon. Member was not present. Had he been here, he would also have found that, far from criticising me for being over-generous, his Front Bench, or his now silenced Whip, the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur), said that he was reluctant to move Amendments because of the paltry sum. I was at pains to tell him that the sums were not really paltry and that we are not governed by the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum. That Memorandum is not in the Bill; it is for the help of those who, like the hon. Member, might not be able to read and understand the Bill. We always get these simple explanations at the beginning. They are an indication of exactly what is intended.
  Of course, the money will be properly spent and Parliament will have the opportunity to control that expenditure. Let it be appreciated that all these moneys are not being voted tonight. They will come under the Estimates. If they are not in existing Estimates as presented, they will come forward in Supplementary Estimates. I hope that the zeal of hon. Members opposite for discussion will continue and that they will not, as my hon. Friend the Minister of State rightly pointed out, concentrate purely on the Highland Development Board, which is to bring so much benefit to a part of Scotland which needs it and which was neglected in the past by hon. Members opposite. They will be able to spread their desire for financial concern in other fields as well.
  1220
  I must break the news to my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirling-shire (Mr. W. Baxter) that the purposes—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) wants to address anybody in the committee, he should rise.
  Sir Douglas Glover: If the right hon. Gentleman will give way—
  The Deputy Chairman: Order. The hon. Member must not persist if the Secretary of State does not give way.
  Mr. Ross: I was explaining to my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire that we do not include within the purposes, or intend to include within the works of the Highland Development Board, the establishment of a Polaris base in the seven Crofter Counties.
  Mr. W. Baxter: My right hon. Friend must realise that I was using that only as a hypothetical case.
  Mr. Ross: I think that we have met the wishes of the House in relation to this Money Resolution. We have given an indication that in the first year the Board will be able to deal only with certain administrative expenses and build up—
  It being a quarter to Eleven o'clock, The CHAIRMAN put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 2 (Exempted Business).
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the economic and social development of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (a) any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in making payments in respect of the expenses of a Highland Development Board or a Highland Development Consultative Council established under the said Act;

  (b) any administrative expenses incurred by the Secretary of State under the said Act.

  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  INNER LONDON MAGISTRATES' COURTS (STAFF PENSIONS)
  10.46 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Alice Bacon): I beg to move,
  That the Superannuation (Inner London Magistrates' Courts) Regulations, 1965, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.
  These Regulations are necessary because of the integration of the two systems of magistrates' courts in the County of London, the metropolitan stipendiary magistrates' courts and the petty sessional courts of lay justices. This is the result of the Administration of Justice Act, 1964, and the relevant part of the Act comes into operation on 1st April, 1965.
  This change will naturally affect the staff of the two sets of courts, who are to be transferred to the employment of the Committee of Magistrates for the inner London area. This Committee has been set up under Section 13 of the Administration of Justice Act, 1964, to administer the integrated courts, which will be known as the Inner London Magistrates' Courts.
  The Committee of Magistrates has been negotiating with representatives of the staff concerned about their future conditions of service. All concerned have agreed that the superannuation scheme which should apply in future is the noncontributory scheme at present enjoyed by the staff of the metropolitan magistrates' courts, provided that the existing staff of the petty sessional courts should continue to enjoy their present scheme of local government contributory pensions if they so wish. Regulations 1 and 2 provide for this.
  Regulation 1 therefore extends to the justices' clerks for the inner London area, and other officers employed by the Committee of Magistrates for the inner London area, the non-contributory scheme of superannuation under the Metropolitan Police Staff (Superannuation) Acts, 1875 to 1931. On the other hand, Regulation 2 anti the Schedule allow the existing staff of the County of London petty sessional courts the option of keeping their existing rights under the local government contributory pension scheme.
  1222
  However, as that scheme is operated by the London County Council which will cease to exist on 1st April, it is necessary to make special provision in the Regulations to allow the scheme to be carried on. We do this by making use of the Greater London Council superannuation fund and requiring the Committee of Magistrates, as employer, to take certain discretionary decisions which previously were taken by the County of London magistrates' courts committee.
  These Regulations have been drafted after consultation with the G.L.C. and the associations representing the staff concerned.
  Except for two points raised by the London Justices' Clerks Society, which represents the clerks of the lay justices as distinct from the metropolitan courts, the Regulations are an agreed Measure. I will elaborate on those points, which are rather technical, if the House wishes, but it may be sufficient for me to say that in neither case does our refusal of the proposal imply a worsening position of the persons concerned in relation to their former position. On the contrary, the Regulations are specially designed to ensure that the position of all the staff concerned is not less favourable with regard to superannuation after transfer than it was before. I can give an assurance that that has been achieved.
  10.50 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Sharples: It is not necessary to detain the House for long in discussing these Regulations, which, as the hon. Lady says, have been agreed between the Committee of Magistrates and the staff side. There is only one question that I want to ask. I notice that a member of the staff has the option of deciding whether to remain under the existing scheme or to transfer to the new scheme and that, according to Regulation No. 2(2), he may give notice before 1st July, 1965,
  "or at any time with the consent of the Secretary of State …"
  I shall be grateful if the hon. Lady will explain why that date has been included, and under what conditions the Secretary of State would give his consent. Would his consent be automatic at any time after the Regulations come into force?
  If that is the case, what is the purpose of putting in the date, 1st July, 1965? Or

  1223
  is the Secretary of State going to withhold his consent after 1st July, 1965, unless adequate reasons are given? The House would be grateful for an explanation of that point.
  Apart from that, I have no criticism of the Regulations themselves, being, as the hon. Lady says, agreed Regulations between the two sides. I hope that she will be able to answer the point that I have raised. These are complicated Regulations and there is a great deal of reference back in them. I hope that at some stage the Regulations will be consolidated so that they can be put into an intelligible form.
  10.53 p.m.
  Mr. Graham Page: I have one question on the Regulations. I understand that they are made under Section 24 of the Administration of Justice Act, 1964. Under that Section the Secretary of State can provide for one or other of two codes to apply to the superannuation of justices' clerks in future. It has been decided to apply a code the fund for which was previously under the control of the London County Council. That fund will be under the control of the Greater London Council after 1st April, 1965. I want to know if the report in the Daily Telegraph of 10th February, 1965, is correct in saying that it is believed that there is a very heavy deficit in the L.C.C. superannuation fund, which is going to be—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): Order. This is a very interesting point, but it does not arise on these Regulations, which merely amend the pensions already in existence.
  Mr. Page: With respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, may I point out that in paragraph 2 of the Schedule it is provided that
  "The appropriate superannuation fund for the purposes of the Act of 1937 shall be the fund maintained by the Greater London Council …"
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Which is the paragraph to which the hon. Gentleman refers?
  Mr. Page: It is paragraph 2 of the Schedule to these Regulations, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, which refers specifically to the fund maintained by the Greater London Council. The point I make is
  1224
  that the Secretary of State, under the Section which empowers him to make these Regulations, has a choice between two different codes, and he has chosen a code which puts justices' clerks' superannuation under the Greater London Council scheme, and I was questioning whether that scheme will be solvent or not when it comes into operation.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I hesitate to interrupt a very old and learned friend, but is he sure that he is taking the Regulations which we are discussing? We are debating the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations.
  Mr. Sharples: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. With respect, we are debating the Superannuation (Inner London Magistrates' Courts) Regulations.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The fault is mine. I am very sorry.
  Mr. Page: I think that I am in order in this, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I was questioning whether the fund which is to be provided in this case for justices' clerks' superannuation will be solvent, having regard to a report which has been published in the newspapers. It was said in the Daily Telegraph of 10th February this year that
  "The superannuation fund deficit"—
  that is, the London County Council superannuation fund—
  "incurred between 1956 and 1961, but only just disclosed, will saddle the Greater London Council with an annual repayment of £600,000 over ten years in addition to the £800,000 a year already committed for the fund's pre-1956 deficits, and its substantial post-1961 deficit whose disclosure can be expected in due course".
  If we transfer the justices' clerks' superannuation to a fund which has already been, if I may so put it, pilfered by the present London County Council to the extent of some £600,000, are we doing the right thing for the justices' clerks and for any other employees of the courts who also are transferred for superannuation purposes to the same fund?
  This is a serious point. If the existing London County Council has borrowed the superannuation funds and has not allowed them to take advantage of inflation by proper investments, the Greater London Council will be in great

  1225
  difficulty in providing superannuation payments. Are we taking a wise step in allowing this precedent? We are here dealing only with justices' clerks and a few other employees of the Inner London magistrates' courts, but these Regulations may well be a precedent for others, and we want to know now whether the Socialist London County Council has so depleted the superannuation funds for its employees that it is leaving the Greater London Council in serious financial difficulties in this respect.
  10.58 p.m.
  Miss Bacon: I have not read the report in the Daily Telegraph to which the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) refers, but I am informed that the question of the fund's solvency which he has raised is one for the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
  Sir Douglas Glover: What is the answer?
  Miss Bacon: The answer is that, so far as I am aware, it is a solvent fund. Obviously, we should not have laid these Regulations if the fund were not solvent.
  The three-month period to which the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharples) referred is the period within which the staff can opt to go over. We believe that three months is reasonable notice, and the Secretary of State's consent is intended to be on promotion. We believe that the three months is a reasonable period in which the staff can make up their minds.
  11.0 p.m.
  Sir Douglas Glover: I do not think that the reply given by the hon. Lady to my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) is adequate. Is there or is there not a deficiency on the superannuation fund?
  It is not good enough for the hon. Lady to say that she is informed that there is a balance. We are being asked to pass a Statutory Instrument which will become the law of the land, and in it we transfer from the L.C.C. to the Greater London Council liabilities which run into £800,000 or thereabouts. But the 'hon. Lady merely says to my hon. Friend, "I do not think that the hon. Member is right. I am informed that
  1226
  he is not. I do not think that his figures are accurate". She does not state this categorically, and she has not been able to tell the House positively that his figures are inaccurate. Once we have passed this Statutory Instrument we shall lose control of it.
  This is another example of the Government's attitude in thinking that they can bring forward Instruments, Regulations or Bills in a half-baked manner without having gone into the questions arising. My hon. Friend is entitled to a far more coherent answer. I am not trying to get the hon. Lady into a difficulty, and I am prepared to go on speaking while her Parliamentary Private Secretary goes to the Box and gets the right answer, because I am sure that there is a coherent answer. If she wants me to do so, I can go on for a little longer while she gets the answer. It is no good her shaking her head. When she replied to my hon. Friend she said, "I am informed", and she was very uncertain about her information. I am asking that before we pass the Statutory Instrument we should have a much more categorical declaration of the situation than we have had so far.
  I have gone on speaking long enough so that, despite her protestations that she did not want the information from the Box, she has now got it. No doubt she will remove the doubts of my hon. Friend and myself by categorically stating the situation which is involved in this transfer of functions. Having given her the opportunity to get the information, I will close my remarks. I hope that she will be able to give a satisfactory explanation in reply to my hon. Friend's very cogent argument.
  11.4 p.m.
  Miss Bacon: The hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) said that he had got his information from a newspaper. To that extent he had "been informed". It is a newspaper report which I have not seen, although no doubt he will lay it before the House. I emphasise that the Greater London Council fund is the successor fund to the L.C.C. fund, and these Regulations have been agreed and drafted after consultation with the Greater London Council and the associations representing the staff concerned. This is, therefore, a matter between the G.L.C. and the

  1227
  L.C.C., because the G.L.C. has agreed to these Regulations being laid.
  It is the staff with whom we are concerned tonight, and they are already in the L.C.C. fund. I cannot state categorically one way or the other whether or not what the hon. Gentleman read in a newspaper is right, but I am saying that the staff are already in the L.C.C. fund, whether or not there is a deficit in that fund. Therefore, the position of the staff is not changed by these Regulations, since the G.L.C. fund is the successor fund to the L.C.C. fund. With that explanation, I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite are satisfied, because we are concerned here with the superannuation rights of the staff. This is not in any way affected by the matter which has been raised, and, as I said, the G.L.C. has agreed to these Regulations and to taking over this fund.
  Sir D. Glover: Had the hon. Lady said that first of all I would not have made a speech.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Superannuation (inner London Magistrates' Courts) Regulations, 1965, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.

  POLICE PENSIONS REGULATIONS
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. George Thomas.
  11.6 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Thomas): Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Richard Sharples: On a point of order. I understand that the Joint Under-Secretary intends to move the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations, 1965, which, I understand, are designed to amend the Police Pensions Regulations, 1962. A short while ago I tried to obtain a copy of the 1962 Regulations from the Vote Office and was informed that no copies had been sent over. I shall be most grateful for your Ruling in this flatter, Mr. Speaker. It is very difficult to discuss these Regulations intelligently unless copies of the earlier Regulations are available to hon. Members. I would be grateful for your help, Mr. Speaker.
  Sir Douglas Glover: Further to that point of order. I would add that I, too, went to the Vote Office and tried to get a copy of the 1962 Regulations. It will be within the recollection of the House that on most of these matters I have tried to intervene in the debates. I find it completely impossible to debate this matter without being able to have a copy of the 1962 Regulations. I think that, in the interests of the ordinary hon. Members of the House, the discussion should be postponed until copies of the Regulations are available.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not wish to appear prescient. A short while ago the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharples) was good enough to inform me that he proposed to raise this point and, subject to other difficulties, I have found the material volume. I did once accept a Motion for the adjournment of a discussion on similar grounds and I made a statement to the House on 12th December, 1961, reporting an agreement which had been arrived at with the then Leader of the House, the gist of which, for this purpose, is that I said
  "…that a Minister in charge of an item of business will in future:
  (a) in the case of documents which may fairly be deemed to be needed for that debate and which are held by the Stationery Office, be responsible for having a reasonable number of copies put in the Vote Office …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1961; Vol. 651, c. 222.]
  I am impressed with the point of it being difficult to discuss these particular Regulations without having in one's hand a copy of the Regulations which they amend. I do not know whether the Minister can help me?
  Mr. George Thomas: I am sorry that hon. Gentlemen opposite have failed to get copies of the 1962 Regulations. I am afraid that I do not supply them. I do not know whose responsibility it is to see—
  Sir D. Glover: It is certainly somebody's.
  Mr. Thomas:—that copies are available and I agree that it is somebody's responsibility.
  Sir D. Glover: It is not ours.
  Mr. Thomas: I feel like saying that it is not mine, either. If it is mine then

  1229
  I apologise to the House. I should have thought that we could have continued with the debate, but I am at the discretion of the House in this matter—
  Mr. Speaker: Not quite. I do not wish to be unduly tiresome, but there is a sort of dividing line between my responsibility and that of the Department—I should say, of the Minister—and I think that it is his responsibility in respect of these Regulations of 1962. What we do about it may be a matter for discussion, but I would be dependent on a Motion.
  Mr. Sharples: I think, Mr. Speaker, that the House is in very real difficulty here. The undertaking given, which was accepted by the then Leader of the Opposition, was that the Minister in charge of an item of business would be responsible for putting these copies in the Vote Office. We face a very real difficulty, because I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House probably want the amending Regulations. These Regulations, as I understand it, are to increase the pensions of the police, and I certainly would not wish to be held in any way responsible for holding up what might be pension benefits, particularly, I think, pension benefits for widows of members of the police—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am afraid that I did not make the point clear. There is nothing before the House at the moment except a point of order. I would consider a Motion, should it be moved in these circumstances.
  Mr. George Thomas: I think that if the House were prepared for me to continue, it would find it quite easy to understand these Regulations without the 1962 Regulations. It is important that we should get them through as quickly as we can, and I must ask the House to let me continue—
  Sir D. Glover: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, and to what has been said by the Minister, this may be in order, and it may be desirable from the Department's point of view and the point of view of the people involved in the Regulations, but we always have to be very conscious of the position of the House of Commons in these matters. The Government, as you had admitted by your Ruling, in the person of the Minister—and I am not trying—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This appears to me to be irregular on any view. We cannot discuss the merits of the matter on a point of order. I do not have the power, and I do not propose to usurp it, to prevent the Minister from moving a Motion, should he think it right to do so.
  Sir D. Glover: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I can continue—and I do apologise if I went too wide before—the House is in some difficulty. It may or may not be at the moment—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That does not arise on a point of order. The point of order is that the Regulations which are to be amended are not available, or are not available in sufficient quantity, in the Vote Office. That concludes the point of order.
  Sir D. Glover: With respect, the Minister said that he thought he could continue the discussion on that basis. All I am saying is that, whether or not he is right, I do not think that the right way to treat the House of Commons is that we should have this debate when these Regulations are not available—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to say that, but not on the point of order. The point is that if the Minister wants to move the Regulations I have to hear him. There are no other matters before the House.
  Mr. Graham Page: Would you accept a Motion to adjourn, Mr. Speaker—I do not like to say to adjourn the Motion, because the Minister has not put the Regulations yet, but a Motion not to receive the Minister's Motion in this respect because of the absence of the copies in the Vote Office?
  Mr. Speaker: No. Not to deceive anybody, I will consider such a Motion in due time, but it cannot be moved until I have proposed the Question upon the Minister's Motion.
  Mr. George Thomas: I have been in the House a long time, and the last thing I would wish to do would he to cause hurt of the sort we have had tonight. I apologise, and I am very sorry that it has occurred. I beg to move,
  That the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 1965, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.
  These draft Regulations amend—
  Mr. Graham Page: Now that the hon. Gentleman has moved the Regulations, am I at liberty to move that the debate be adjourned?
  Mr. Speaker: The point at which that can be done is when the Question is proposed from the Chair. I have not yet proposed it.
  Mr. Thomas: These draft Regulations amend the Police Pensions Regulations, 1962, and they fall into three parts. It may be for the convenience of the House if I describe each part separately.
  The object of Part 1 is to increase benefits for certain widows and children, payable under the Police Pensions Regulations, by an amount corresponding to the increases in National Insurance benefits which were made by the Act of 1964. It is necessary to make this special provision because the police were excluded from the contributory old-age pensions scheme which existed before the National Insurance schemes which were introduced in 1948. As a result, some police widows and children are not at present entitled to these benefits and police authorities are, therefore, given discretion to pay corresponding benefits under the provisions of the Police Pensions Regulations.
  The effect of Part 1 of the Regulations is to give these special classes of widows and children increases corresponding to the National Insurance benefit as it now is. I do not think that I need quote all the figures which are incorporated in these draft Regulations now before the House and, also, in the National Insurance Acts; but, to give one example, a widow will get £5 12s. 6d. instead of £4 15s. a week over and above her basic pension for the first 13 weeks of widowhood. Thereafter, she will receive £4 a week instead of £3 7s. 6d. above her ordinary police pension.
  The allowance in respect of a child, where both parents are dead, will be a maximum of £2 instead of 37s. 6d. a week. I am sure that the House will consider these to be wholly acceptable amendments. There are 8,000 police widows and children who will be affected by these Regulations, and they will apply in relation both to future awards and those already in payment.
  1232
  The amendments in Part 2 flow mainly from the provisions of the Police Act, 1964, and I think the House would prefer that I should explain those a little more fully. That Act provides that, as from 1st April next, a police authority acting with the approval of the Secretary of State, may call upon a chief constable, a deputy chief constable, or an assistant chief constable to retire in the interests of the efficiency of a force. The draft Regulations No. 8 and No. 9 state that an officer so required to retire shall have an ordinary or short-service pension, according to the length of his service.
  Regulation No. 10 ensures that such an officer will be able to commute part of the pension for a lump sum, while Regulation No. 13 excludes those officers from the existing provisions of the 1962 Regulations which provide for the compulsory retirement, in the interests of efficiency, of a police officer who has an entitlement to a maximum pension. These provisions would otherwise overlap the provisions of the Police Act to which I have referred.
  The Police Act also makes further provision for schemes to be made amalgamating police areas. On and after 1st April amalgamation schemes will be coming into operation which may result in a chief constable losing his post, and Orders may be made under the Local Government Act, 1958, making boundary changes affecting police areas and a chief constable's post. Regulation No. 14 inserts into the Police Pensions Regulations a new Regulation No. 74A to provide for chief constables who are affected by these Schemes and Orders. The new Regulation secures that a chief constable who loses office in this way shall be treated as having retired. If he joins another police force within a prescribed period his service is to be treated as continuous for pension purposes. If he continues in the police service but suffers reduction in rank, the new Regulation provides that he shall be entitled to retain the age of compulsory retirement which was applicable to his former rank.
  Special provision is made in the case of a chief constable losing office who was already a chief constable on 1st July, 1964, when the provisions of the Police Act, 1964, relating to local government reorganisation and amalgamation schemes came into operation. The new Regulation No. 74A, read with the new subparagraph (e) added to Regulation No.

  1233
  3(1) of the 1962 Regulations by Regulation No. 9 secures that if he loses office as a member of a police force he shall, regardless of age, be entitled to an ordinary or short-service pension, according to the length of his service.
  I should perhaps explain here that the rights of chief constables who are affected by local government reorganisation or a police amalgamation scheme will not be limited to those arising under the Police Pensions Regulations as amended by these draft Regulations. It is intended that compensation Regulations will be made under the Local Government Act, 1958, entitling these chief constables to claim compensation for loss of office or diminution of emoluments. Special provision will also be made in the compensation Regulations for chief constables who held that rank on 1st July, 1964.
  The Regulations in Part II which I have not yet specifically mentioned—that is, Regulations Nos. 11, 12 and 15—make minor amendments.
  In Part III, Regulation No. 17 provides that Part I of the Regulations shall come into force on 29th March, 1965, and Part II on 1st April, 1965. As I have explained, Part II is mainly consequent upon the coming into operation on that date—that is, 1st April—of certain provisions of the Police Act and police amalgamation schemes under that Act. Part I relates, as I have said, to increases in widows' and children's awards corresponding to increases in National Insurance benefits. As the increased National Insurance benefits will be payable as from 29th March, it is important that the increased police awards should also be payable from that date.
  The Police Councils for England and Wales and for Scotland have been consulted and are in agreement with the proposal that these amendments should be made.
  11.25 p.m.
  Sir Douglas Glover: I find myself in the difficulty in which so many of us find ourselves on either side of the House when a situation arises in the House of the kind which has arisen tonight. I do not suppose that there is anybody in the House who does not welcome the improvements brought about by this agreement.
  Mr. Michael Foot: A bit more gracious.
  Sir D. Glover: If the hon. Member would like me to be more gracious I will say that I warmly welcome it.
  Mr. Foot: What about ecstatic?
  Sir D. Glover: I will be ecstatic even, if the hon. Member likes, but the hon. Member who has a great rôle to carry out in the House would be, if he were sitting here—
  Mr. Foot: The hon. Member is after a mare's nest.
  Sir D. Glover: I am not, and the hon. Member knows it.
  I apologise that it should be the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department whom I should be attacking tonight, because he is one of my greatest friends on the other side of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, everybody knows that is true. We are dealing here, as the hon. Gentleman said, with a draft Statutory Instrument which is to bring in Regulations to improve the pensions scheme for the police. The hon. Gentleman referred in his speech at least twice, if not three times, to the 1962 Regulations. I put it to him whether he would think that we should pass these Regulations tonight if he occupied the position which he occupied for many years on this side of the House.
  Let us suppose in that case that the Regulations had been in force for three months, we having allowed them to go through without referring to the 1962 Regulations, and then Constable Smith or Sergeant Jones came to see the hon. Gentleman and said, "Under the Regulations which you allowed to go through on the nod on 16th March, 1965, I am cut out." I do not think that this applies, but unless I am given the opportunity of comparing this draft Statutory Instrument with the 1962 Regulations I cannot be certain that there are not loopholes in the Regulations which we as back benchers would not like to see go through on the nod. I find myself in a real difficulty. I have tried to speak in nearly every debate affecting the police during the time I have been a Member of the House. Nobody in the House has a better record of supporting the police.
  Mr. Michael Foot: The hon. Member should not pull that one now.
  Sir D. Glover: The hon. Member is speaking from his seat. I do not know whether he has lost the use of his legs. Obviously he would not do well on the beat if he were as comatose as he is at the moment.
  We are asked to pass Regulations when the Government of the day—no matter whether Tory, Socialist or, even in the most wildly ecstatic circumstances, a Liberal Government—have not produced information in the Vote Office whereby a back bencher can make up his mind. I do not propose to oppose the Regulations.
  Mr. David Griffiths: Then the hon. Member should sit down.
  Sir D. Glover: I do not propose to oppose them because I believe that they are beneficial to the Police Force, but in allowing them to go through I shall be faced with the awful problem, with which back benchers are faced, of somebody afterwards saying, "Of course, you had not read the 1962 Regulations or you would have known that I would be excluded."
  I want to be quite certain that the Under-Secretary of State can assure me and every other back bencher that there are involved none of the Government twists which so often occur on these occasions, no matter which Government are in power, particularly after 11 o'clock at night. I want to be sure that none of us will find ourselves in difficulty because there is something derogatory in the Regulations, and that they are solely beneficial to the police.
  The hon. Gentleman has apologised for the oversight by the Home Office and I accept his apology. I know, quite sincerely, that he did not deliberately keep the 1962 Regulations out of the Vote Office, but it means that I am dealing with these Regulations without being able to see them. Therefore, I hope he can assure us that there is nothing in this Statutory Instrument derogatory or inimical to even one person in the police. If I have that assurance I am prepared to withdraw my objection. It must be a clear assurance, however, because once we pass this Order we shall have lost our opportunity to protect the police in this respect.
  11.32 p.m.
  Mr. Graham Page: I do not rise to move the adjournment of this debate, as I think I would be entitled to do now, because, although a very important point has arisen, we do not want to hold up these Regulations. But I want to stress once again that there has been a breach of the Ruling which you gave two years ago, Mr. Speaker, for the assistance of hon. Members—that if an Order amends a previous Order, it is the Minister's responsibility to see that that previous Order is available to the House in the Vote Office. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State appreciates that now. I want to put this point again on record because I feel it my duty to do so as Chairman of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments. Having said that, I will let the matter rest and hope that the Ruling will be obeyed in future.
  Surely at this stage we should have these Regulations codified. This Instrument is at least the fourth amendment of the 1962 Regulations and, as is shown in it, one has to consult the 1962 Regulations in order to understand the proposed amendments. We have reached a stage when these could usefully be codified and the 1962 Regulations rewritten. On this occasion, we are asked to amend at least 12 Regulations and make five amendments to the Schedules. It would be very much easier if they could all be codified into one set of Regulations.
  Secondly, there is the question of compulsory retirement. Under Regulation No. 13 of this Instrument a new Regulation is to be substituted for Regulation No. 60 of the 1962 Regulations. It excludes from compulsory retirement on ground of efficiency three officers, described as
  "…a chief officer of police, deputy chief constable or assistant chief constable…"
  These officers are to be taken out of these Regulations and I assume that they are not to be entitled to pension if they are compulsorily retired, at least that they will not be entitled under these Regulations. One looks to see what is substituted for that in Regulation No. 74A which is now included in paragraph 14, but Regulation No. 74A refers only to a chief constable of the police force. I do not know whether that phrase covers the three named officers in the new Regulation No. 60, but it seems to me that a deputy chief constable or an assistant

  1237
  chief constable may not be included and I should like the Under-Secretary to consider whether the wording is satisfactory, taking the new Regulation No. 60 together with the new Regulation No. 74A.
  11.35 p.m.
  Mr. Forbes Hendry: Like my hon. Friends, I welcome the Regulations in view of the explanation given by the Under-Secretary, but, also like my hon. Friends, I was in some difficulty in trying to make out what the Regulations were all about, because I was not able to get hold of the original Regulations in the Vote Office. I was extremely impressed by the Under-Secretary's apology and very surprised that there was no apology on behalf of the Scottish Office, because these Regulations apply equally to Scotland. The Secretary of State for Scotland was not on the Government Front Bench when we began our discussion of these Regulations, although since the discussion began he has wandered in and out of the Chamber. I was extremely upset when no Scottish Minister was present at the beginning of the discussion.
  I was misled to begin with, for the Regulations appear to be anonymous and yet I found that they were in the name of someone describing himself as "I" in the Preamble. I was then not quite sure whether that was the Secretary of State for the Home Department, or the Secretary of State for Scotland, but on reading through the Regulations I could see that the Secretary of State for Scotland had a definite duty to perform, because Regulations Nos. 8, 9 and 10 refers to Regulations made under a Scottish Act.
  Sir D. Glover: Does the Regulations in 1962(b) refer to Scotland as well, or is my hon. Friend referring to other Regulations?
  Mr. Hendry: That is one of the matters on which I have been hoping to get an explanation. These Regulations are meaningless at the moment, and I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland will give us some explanation.
  Looking through the Explanatory Note, I see that certain senior police officers may be required to retire in the interests of efficiency. That seems to apply to Scotland and I am entitled to know whether the Secretary of State for Scotland is careless of the well-being of senior
  1238
  police officers in Scotland, for he has absented himself from most of the debate. I hope that he will have the courtesy to give some sort of explanation and apology for the Scottish Regulations not being available to hon. Members.
  Sir D. Glover: My hon. Friend has raised a matter of grave substance. Is my hon. Friend saying that the Regulations 1962(b) apply to Scotland in their entirety, or that he does not know and would like an explanation from the Secretary of State for Scotland? Here we are, again dealing with Regulations at a late hour, when the Government have not explained the situation to us and have not produced documents and when we are arguing in a vacuum and if this applies to Scotland—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order.")—if hon. Members want to make that sort of noise, I can assure them that I have a lot more to say.
  Mr. Speaker: Not by way of an intervention in an hon. Member's speech. Has the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) concluded his speech?
  Mr. Hendry: I wanted to add only that we are in a very great difficulty which my hon. Friend has mentioned and I hope that we will get an explanation and apology from the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  11.40 p.m.
  Mr. Hector Monro: As one who has been a member of a joint police committee in Scotland for many years and who is at present chairman of one, I should like to give the new Regulations my warm support. I know that the Retired Police Officers' Association (Scotland) views them in a very favourable light and will look forward to their early implementation. In the same way, with possible amalgamation in Scotland in view, I am sure that the Regulations as they affect chief constables will also be viewed in a favourable light in Scotland.
  The Retired Police Officers' Association (Scotland) hopes, however, that it will not be long before the Minister lays Regulations before this House improving the pensions of police officers who have been retired for many years and who feel that their parity is well below the present-day level. With these brief remarks, and endorsing what my hon. Friends

  1239
  have said concerning the difficulty caused by the absence of the earlier Regulations, I give these amending Regulations my support.
  11.42 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Sharpies: In discussing the Regulations, the House has been in real difficulty in not having the principal Regulations, without which it has been impossible to have a coherent debate. The Joint Under-Secretary of State did, however, make a full apology to the House in his opening remarks, and we on this side certainly accept the spirit in which that apology was made. We also had an assurance from the hon. Gentleman that these amending Regulations are designed to increase the pensions of, in particular, widows and others connected with the police. For that reason above all, we do not wish in any way to hold up the Regulations, although I feel that in the absence of the principal Regulations we would have been entitled to do so had we wished.
  We must, therefore, accept the Joint Under-Secretary's assurance more or less unseen and we must ask him, in his reply, for a categorical assurance that as a result of these amending Regulations no one who is affected by them will be one penny worse off. I must ask the hon. Gentleman particularly to assure us that under Regulation No. 13, which amends Regulation No. 60(1) of the main Regulations, none of the senior police officers referred to will be worse off.
  I must ask the hon. Gentleman also, in regard to Regulation No. 60(2) of the principal Regulations, which Regulation No. 13 amends—it is difficult to deal with the matter when we do not have the main Regulations before us—to assure us that none of the other police officers there referred to will be worse off and that throughout the whole of the Regulations no one who is affected will be one penny worse off. We have no means of checking this. We must, therefore, accept the assurance which the hon. Gentleman gives us.
  I should like also to know why Parts I and III of the Regulations come into force on 29th March but Part II comes into force on a different date. That is not explained either in the Regulations
  1240
  themselves or in the Explanatory Memorandum, and I think that the House is entitled to an explanation of that.
  Having said that, I must repeat my strongest protest at the way in which the House has been treated over this matter, but, for the reasons which I have given, and in view of the apology which the hon. Gentleman has made, we do not wish to hold up the passage of the Regulations.
  11.45 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: I am very grateful to hon. Gentlemen opposite for agreeing that this business should go forward, for I was in the House on the occasion which has been referred to, and I am therefore going to try to give, and I believe I can give, adequate answers to the points which have been raised.
  The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharples), and the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) asked me for a categorical assurance that no one would suffer, that no one would be worse off. I can say that these Regulations strengthen the protection and improve the position of all the pensioners concerned. I understand that, far from being worse off, everyone affected by these Regulations will be better off. I am very pleased to give that assurance to the House.
  The hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) rightly reminded the House that there had been a number of sets of Amendments to the 1962 Regulations. This is the sixth set, and clearly the time has come when they should be consolidated. The Government are anxious to introduce in the next Session of Parliament a consolidated Measure to incorporate all these Regulations. Indeed, this is our earnest intent.
  I always hesitate to refer to Scotland, but perhaps I might tell the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) that the Measure does not affect Scotland in the detail about which he was worried. No new provisions have been made for chief constables losing office in Scotland as a result of police amalgamations or local government orders. The new draft Regulation No. 74A(4) refers only to orders under Part I of the Police Act, 1964, and Part II of the Local Government Act, 1958. It is not expected

  1241
  that in Scotland there will be compulsory amalgamations involving a chief constable in loss of office other than by retirement, and the reorganisation of Scottish local government is, I gather, still under consideration. There will be plenty of opportunity for discussion on that matter when it arises.
  I was also asked about deputy chief constables and assistant chief constables who may be asked to retire, and whether they would draw pensions. The answer is that these people are eligible to receive a pension, and the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam, and the hon. Member for Ormskirk, who I know take a great interest in police matters, may be assured that the police authorities, the police themselves, and the Police Council have agreed to these Regulations, and indeed they seek to see them on the Statute Book as soon as possible.
  I hope that with that explanation the House will agree to pass these Regulations tonight.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations, 1965, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE (PAUL LESLIE HILL)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lawson.]
  11.49 p.m.
  Mr. David Griffiths: I must apologise for raising this matter at this late hour when you, Mr. Speaker, and all respectable people should be in bed, but I was so incensed about it that I felt that I had to bring it to the notice of the House. Furthermore, I not only feel incensed about this case but I have a feeling at the back of my mind that there may be many similar ones.
  This matter concerns a boy in my constituency who is desirous of entering the Royal Air Force as an apprentice, but who has been refused entry. To me this as the height of ridiculousness and inconsistency on the part of the Minister of Defence and his advisers and staff, because this boy has an elder brother who is in the Services. He is a non-
  1242
  commissioned officer, who after embarkation leave is now serving in foreign parts. There is no question of a security risk in the case of his elder brother, but for certain reasons the boy has been refused entry on so-called security grounds.
  What are the reasons? Is it because the boy's mother was born in Poland? Cannot she be trusted? Cannot the boy be trusted—a boy with five G.C.E. "O" levels, who is physically fit and highly respected both in and out of his school? The boy's mother was born of humble parents, who died during the war in Poland. She was taken to Westphalia, in Germany, and there met her present husband, who was serving in the Yorks and Lancs Regiment. After marrying him she came to live with him in Dinnington. They have now lived there for 20 years, and have brought up a highly respectable family.
  I have the utmost respect for Dr. Balogh and Dr. Kaldor, the two very distinguished people, both of Hungarian extraction, as I understand it, who have been called in as advisers to Cabinet Ministers. Why should there be a differentiation between this boy and these two older men? I cannot understand it. Why cannot this boy be allowed to enter the Services when he and his parents have the respect of their neighbours, as did his grandparents?
  I have as much regard for security as my hon. Friend, and my noble Friend in another place, but I feel that some of these regulations are too stringent. But, on the other hand, I feel that this is taking the matter to the height of absurdity.
  I have letters here, one from the British Legion and one from another source, speaking to the respectability of this family. The first reads:
  "Mrs. Hill is a good citizen, well known and respected in Dinnington. Mr. Hill is also a well known local resident. I have known him for over thirty years, and he served himself with the Armed Forces from 1939 to 1945 at home and abroad. Surely, Sir, this is proof enough of the family's loyalty".
  The second says:
  "I personally can vouch for the integrity of Mr. Bernard Hill and his family, who were born here and are an old Dinnington family. Like his brothers and father before him, he served his country faithfully in time of war. Both he and his wife are well known and respected in Dinnington. He, his wife and

  1243
  family are well known and take an active part in the social life of the village community".
  Will my hon. Friend now ensure that this boy has an opportunity to go into the Service and do something which has been his ambition ever since his school days? Cannot he set aside some of these—as I regard them—stupid and foolish regulations? I appeal to my hon. Friend and to my noble Friend to tell some of the "brass hats" to get off their high horse.
  11.56 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force (Mr. Bruce Millan): I know how very strongly my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. David Griffiths) feels about this particular case. I say at once that my reply to him tonight will not give him a great deal of satisfaction. Perhaps I should first briefly state the facts of the case.
  My hon. Friend's constituent, Paul Leslie Hill, applied last September for entry into the Royal Air Force as a technician apprentice. He was informed by letter from our Inspector of Recruiting on 20th November that he was not to be accepted into the Service. Following that, his father wrote to the Ministry of Defence and asked whether we could state a reason for rejecting his application, and the Director of Manning replied on 27th November confirming that, unfortunately, we were not able to accept the boy into the Royal Air Force and saying—this is, of course, the main point in the complaint which my hon. Friend has raised—that it is not and never has been our practice to give reasons for rejecting any particular application for entry into the Royal Air Force.
  After that letter on 27th November, the matter was raised by the boy's parents with my hon. Friend, and he has been pursuing it ever since. As I say, I know that he feels extremely strongly about it. He has been in correspondence both with my noble Friend the Minister of Defence for the Royal Air Force and with me about the case. He has spoken to my noble Friend about it and has had a brief word with me on the subject, too.
  Both the Minister and I have considered the case very carefully. I hope
  1244
  that my hon. Friend will accept that. We have not taken it as being by any means a completely closed case when it was put to us, but we have both considered it most carefully. But the fact is that we do not give reasons for rejecting any applicant. This is not a special kind of rule which applies only to ourselves. It is a rule which most employers adopt, that they do not give reasons for rejecting applicants for particular jobs. I have looked into the rule very carefully, because obviously there may be circumstances in which there is reason to believe that the application of this rule might lead to misunderstanding and even to injustice in particular cases. Having looked into it, I am convinced that there is a very good reason for it. Certainly in the vast majority of cases it is much better that we do not give any reasons for turning down an applicant.
  All I can say in this case is that the application was given every proper consideration and that, having looked at all the details—and I have seen the application form and all other documents in the case—I am convinced that we had perfectly legitimate reasons for refusing him entry into the Royal Air Force. It is always stated in our recruiting literature, apart from anywhere else, that we reserve the right to refuse entry even to applicants who seem to be potentially qualified for entry into the service. In particular, the recruiting pamphlet concerned with R.A.F. apprenticeships, in paragraph 38, page 8, says that even potentially suitable candidates will not necessarily be offered apprenticeships.
  In this case the boy applied for a technician apprenticeship, and the standards which we lay down for these are very high indeed. It is, therefore, no reflection on the boy or his ability, and certainly no reflection on his ability to make a worth-while career in some other field, that we have not been able to accept him for this kind of apprenticeship. Certainly it is no reflection at all on his family circumstances that we have refused him entry into the Service.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the circumstance which troubles him most—that the boy's mother is Polish—and asked whether this was the reason why we refused the boy entry into the Service. I am afraid that the same kind of consideration applies here as I have already

  1245
  laid down as a general principle—that we do not give reasons, whether they are reasons of family circumstances or anything else, why any applicant is turned down. I am sorry to say that, despite my hon. Friend's appeal on this point, and despite the fact that he feels very strongly about it, I am not prepared this evening to go beyond that. I must rest on this principle that the Royal Air Force does not give reasons for turning down a particular applicant.
  But I assure my hon. Friend again that the fact that we have turned down the application is neither a reflection on the boy himself nor a reflection on his family circumstances or the respectability of the family, as my hon. Friend so eloquently described it. I know that this must be a very disappointing answer not only to my hon. Friend but also to the boy himself and to his family.
  Mr. Edmund Dell: Even if my hon. Friend cannot give reasons why the boy has been refused, surely he can deny one specific reason—that the boy's mother is Polish?
  Mr. Millan: The boy's mother is Polish. I am not denying that. It is a
  1246
  fact which is not in dispute. What I am saying is that I am not intending to give any reason at all for rejecting this application to join the Service. There are very good reasons why we do not give reasons in these cases, and I am sorry that, despite my hon. Friend's appeal, I do not want to go beyond what I have said tonight.
  I assure my hon. Friend that my noble Friend and I have looked into this matter most carefully. I do not think that that is in dispute between my hon. Friend and the Department. I have also spoken to my hon. Friend about the case. The answer I have given must obviously be disappointing to my hon. Friend, the boy and his parents, but I hope that, although we have not been able to accept him into the R.A.F., the boy, as I am sure he will, will find a worthwhile career elsewhere and forget this disappointment.
  Mr. David Griffiths: Still very unsatisfactory.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at five minutes past Twelve o'clock.

TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Telephone Kiosk, Shrewsbury
  Telephone Kiosk, Shrewsbury
  Trunk Calls
  Trunk Calls
  Telephone Kiosk, Whittington, Worcestershire
  Telephone Kiosk, Whittington, Worcestershire
  Telephone Kiosks, South Down
  Telephone Kiosks, South Down
  Telephone Kiosk, Cambuslang
  Telephone Kiosk, Cambuslang
  Concessional Telephone Rentals
  Concessional Telephone Rentals
  Telephone Kiosk, Pentyrrch, Glamorgan
  Telephone Kiosk, Pentyrrch, Glamorgan
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Viewing Hours
  Viewing Hours
  Reception, Stroud
  Reception, Stroud
  Licence Fees
  Licence Fees
  Amateur Transmissions
  Amateur Transmissions
  I.T.A. Chairman (Terms of Appointment)
  I.T.A. Chairman (Terms of Appointment)
  Pay Television
  Pay Television
  Local Broadcasting Stations
  Local Broadcasting Stations
  Advertisements (Amount and Distribution)
  Advertisements (Amount and Distribution)
  Colour Television
  Colour Television
  B.B.C. Publications
  B.B.C. Publications
  Cigarette Advertisements (Revenue)
  Cigarette Advertisements (Revenue)
  Programmes (Religious Susceptibilities)
  Programmes (Religious Susceptibilities)
  B.B.C. (Controlling Authority)
  B.B.C. (Controlling Authority)
  Reception, Norfolk
  Reception, Norfolk
  Educational Broadcasting
  Educational Broadcasting
  Wrestling Contests
  Wrestling Contests
POST OFFICE
  Capital Investment and Charges
  Capital Investment and Charges
  Battle of Britain (Commemorative Stamps)
  Battle of Britain (Commemorative Stamps)
  Postal Services (Loss)
  Postal Services (Loss)
  Giro System
  Giro System
  Post Office Savings Bank (Transfer to Glasgow)
  Post Office Savings Bank (Transfer to Glasgow)
  Pornographic Literature
  Pornographic Literature
  Parcel (Delivery Delay)
  Parcel (Delivery Delay)
  Postal Service, East Sussex
  Postal Service, East Sussex
  Industrial Exhibition of Wales
  Industrial Exhibition of Wales
  International Co-operation Year (Stamps)
  International Co-operation Year (Stamps)
  Richard Trevithick (Stamp)
  Richard Trevithick (Stamp)
  Satellite Communications (World System)
  Satellite Communications (World System)
  Cash on Delivery Communications (Sender's Name and Address)
  Cash on Delivery Communications (Sender's Name and Address)
  3d. Stamp
  3d. Stamp
  Christmas Cards
  Christmas Cards
  Parcels (Northern Ireland)
  Parcels (Northern Ireland)
  Churchill Postage Stamps (Design)
  Churchill Postage Stamps (Design)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Gypsies
  Gypsies
  Out-of-Town Shopping Centres
  Out-of-Town Shopping Centres
  Itinerants
  Itinerants
  Water Supplies, Essex
  Water Supplies, Essex
  Rating, London
  Rating, London
  Old-Age Pensioners (Rating Relief)
  Old-Age Pensioners (Rating Relief)
  Rating Assessments, Worthing
  Rating Assessments, Worthing
  Rating Allowances
  Rating Allowances
  Preservation Orders, Northumberland and Durham
  Preservation Orders, Northumberland and Durham
HOUSING
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Protection from Eviction
  Protection from Eviction
COAL
  Mining Subsidence
  Mining Subsidence
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Old-Age Pensioners (Maintenance Charges)
  Old-Age Pensioners (Maintenance Charges)
TECHNOLOGY
  Hovercraft
  Hovercraft
  Dounreay (Capital Expenditure)
  Dounreay (Capital Expenditure)
  Fire Research Testing Station
  Fire Research Testing Station
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Charities (Taxation)
  Charities (Taxation)
  Public Expenditure
  Public Expenditure
  Machinery and Equipment
  Machinery and Equipment
  Export Rebates (Taxation)
  Export Rebates (Taxation)
  Business Expense Accounts
  Business Expense Accounts
  Rating Assessments
  Rating Assessments
  Distribution of Wealth
  Distribution of Wealth
  Income Tax Rebates (Married Persons)
  Income Tax Rebates (Married Persons)
  Premium Bonds
  Premium Bonds
  Civil Service Pensions
  Civil Service Pensions
  5s. Piece (Sir Winston Churchill Commemoration)
  5s. Piece (Sir Winston Churchill Commemoration)
  Import Surcharge
  Import Surcharge
  Northern Ireland Border (Concession Passes)
  Northern Ireland Border (Concession Passes)
  Customs Post, Culloville
  Customs Post, Culloville
  Surtax
  Surtax
  SPAIN (GIBRALTAR)
  SPAIN (GIBRALTAR)
SCOTLAND
  A.1 (By-pass)
  A.1 (By-pass)
  Highland Counties (Agricultural Support)
  Highland Counties (Agricultural Support)
  HEALTH SERVICES, WALES
  HEALTH SERVICES, WALES
  IMMIGRATION
  IMMIGRATION
  PRICES AND INCOMES
  PRICES AND INCOMES
  NORTH-EAST SCOTLAND
  NORTH-EAST SCOTLAND
  ROGER CASEMENT (DOCUMENTS)
  ROGER CASEMENT (DOCUMENTS)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Grey Seal
  Grey Seal
SOUTH ARABIAN FEDERATION
  Terrorist Incidents
  Terrorist Incidents
  Aircraft Infringements
  Aircraft Infringements
FAHDLI SULTANATE
  Rebels (Capture)
  Rebels (Capture)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Minor Building Works (Bournemouth)
  Minor Building Works (Bournemouth)
  Youth service (Building Programme)
  Youth service (Building Programme)
  National Sports Foundation
  National Sports Foundation
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Immigrants
  Immigrants
  Porton Experimental Station (Animals)
  Porton Experimental Station (Animals)
  Experiments on Animals
  Experiments on Animals
  Fireworks
  Fireworks
  Debtors (Prison Maintenance Costs)
  Debtors (Prison Maintenance Costs)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Widow's Allowance
  Widow's Allowance
  Old-age Pensioners (Birkenhead)
  Old-age Pensioners (Birkenhead)
  Motor Car Workers, Longbridge (Unemployment Benefit)
  Motor Car Workers, Longbridge (Unemployment Benefit)
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Government Offices (Cost)
  Government Offices (Cost)
BOARD OF TRADE
  Trawlers (Life-Saving Equipment)
  Trawlers (Life-Saving Equipment)
  Industrial Development Certificates (Yorkshire)
  Industrial Development Certificates (Yorkshire)
  Motor Cars (American-Canadian Agreement)
  Motor Cars (American-Canadian Agreement)
TRANSPORT
  Parking Meters
  Parking Meters
ROADS
  M.6 (Birkenhead)
  M.6 (Birkenhead)
  Fareham and Portchester
  Fareham and Portchester
  Traffic Signs (Seaford)
  Traffic Signs (Seaford)
SHIPPING
  North-East Ports
  North-East Ports
WALES
  Housing
  Housing

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln
The Earl of Woolton—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Earl of Verulam—Took the Oath.

THE LATE SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL: TRIBUTE FROM SENATE OF TEXAS
2.35 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I have to inform the House that I have received from the President of the Senate of Texas copies of a Resolution issued by the Senate on January 25, 1965, in tribute to the memory of the late Sir Winston Churchill. I am placing these copies in the Library, and I propose, with your Lordships' permission, to express on your behalf the thanks of the House for the generous terms of this Resolution.

RAILWAY DIESEL ENGINE FAILURES
2.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to the increasing frequency of diesel engine failures on British Railways; whether they are aware of the resulting inconvenience caused to travellers, and whether they will ensure that there is a sufficient steam reserve standing by at strategic points to engage in rescue operations.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, the Question
280
refers to matters which are entirely the responsibility of the British Railways Board.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I can hardly thank the noble Lord for that short Answer. Is he aware that during the Christmas period there were 32 diesel engine failures on the Eastern Region main line? Diesel engine failures must affect following traffic. Will the noble Lord bring this to the notice of the British Railways Board? Further, I should like him to bring this to their notice: if we are not going to have all lines electrified in the future, would it not be wise to have fresh research into the oil firing of steam engines—in other words, to have modern steam traction?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the Government, the public, and of course the British Railways Board are fully aware of the failure in operation of many and varied types of diesel engines. But I can only repeat that the types of locomotive to be purchased and their operation are entirely matters for the Board themselves. Reference has been made to the Eastern Region. These engines were bought from private enterprise. When they came into operation it was found that there were boiler failures, sometimes to the extent of 50 per cent., and therefore modifications of the engines, the bogies and axles have been required; in some engines as many as 300 modifications have had to take place. These modifications are being made by the manufacturers and the Railways Board in consultation one with the other. Implementation of the latter part of the noble Lord's Question, in which he suggests standby steam engines, would entail shed staff and the availability of coal and water, and the cost of the standby insurance would not be justified.
LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGE: My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could confirm my impression that although certainly there have been a number of failures among some of these diesel locomotives, yet the incidence of failure among steam locomotives is nearly double that among diesel locomotives. Secondly, would he agree that, as we are selling quite a number of

281
these locomotives as exports, it is important not to exaggerate the incidence of failure there has been among some of them?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, of course, there were failures with steam engines. But, as the noble Lord knows, and as the House will appreciate, when a diesel fails it stops; when a steam engine fails, with an expert driver it can generally glide on to the nearest station and is not isolated in the middle of the countryside. I am certain that co-operation between the Railways Board and the manufacturers will produce a locomotive which will be a valuable export commodity.

SALE OF CRIMINALS' REMINISCENCES
2.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider introducing legislation to make it illegal for a criminal to sell the story of his misdeeds to the Press, Radio or Television.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, the Government fully recognise the undesirability of exploiting crime by this means. I understand that the Press Council are reviewing the subject and that they have obtained a good deal of information which is being closely studied. I think that we should await the result of this review before considering the matter further.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, will the Minister take into account, in a case where large sums are obtained for selling such stories, that that fact should be considered when the amount of legal aid is being assessed?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I think that that question scarcely arises from the original Question. The position is that the Home Secretary cannot prevent released prisoners from communicating with the Press; but he takes all possible steps—and successful steps—to prevent persons in prison from communicating with, or giving stories to, the Press. But it often happens that newspapers get their information from other sources, and all they need is the signature of the criminal. That, of course, is something that we cannot really prevent.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, is it not the case that if a contract is made to sell reminiscences to the Press, if the contract is made before trial and that is known, that would be taken into account before any grant of legal aid was made?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, quite obviously any grants of that kind might be included in the means of the applicant for legal aid; if the means were large enough, then he would not qualify for legal aid.
LORD WILLIS: My Lords, does not the Minister agree that most of these stories are highly fictionalised anyway, and that if you draw the line at criminals writing about their misdeeds, obviously you may reach the point where you forbid politicians to write about their misdeeds?
LORD STONHAM: I am quite sure my noble friend, with his considerable experience, can advise us on this point; but it is the case that responsible opinion has the view that activities of some newspapers in this field are to be deplored, and it is to be hoped that the Press Council will assist us in persuading these newspapers to put their house in order.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that the big fees presumably paid to these people for writing their stories do rather make young people think that crime pays? I cannot agree with the comparison drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, regarding politicians.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, any young people who think that crime pays would only have to experience the delights of a borstal or of one of Her Majesty's prisons to be sure that it does not.

PUBLISHERS' ADVERTISEMENT ON RECORD SLEEVE
2.44 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Director of Public Prosecutions has considered the following words printed on the cover of a record offered for sale under the title "Rolling Stones No. 2", and what action they intend to take:
"Cast deep into your pockets for loot to buy this disc of groovies and fancy words. If you don't have bread, see that blind man, knock him on the head, steal his wallet and lo and behold you have the loot. If you put in the boot, good. Another one sold."]
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, the attention of the Director of Public Prosecutions has been drawn to the noble Lord's Question. In his view, there is no evidence that these words have been published in circumstances constituting a criminal offence. He cannot, therefore, take any action about them.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I thank the Minister for his Answer? I would ask him if I have correctly understood that he is advised that inciting people to assault, rob and kick the blind is beyond the reach of the criminal law. If that is so, is there anything that Her Majesty's Government propose to do about it?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, this particular matter is not one for my Department. As I am quite sure the noble Lord is aware, the Director of Public Prosecutions is by Statute and statutory regulations subject to the superintendence and direction of Her Majesty's Attorney General. He is not subject to the directions of the Government. I think, however, that we all agree that these words are offensive to a degree, but our advice is that they are not regarded as incitement to commit a criminal offence. If it is any consolation to the noble Lord, research which I made at the week-end supports the view that, even when they are intelligible, the words of a "pop" song are not considered important, and devotees pay even less regard to the "blurb" on the envelope.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I make it quite clear that I am not talking about the "pop" song at all? Is it not probable that, if a young man thinks this incitement to crime a good joke, he will consider committing the crime a better joke still? Has that aspect of the matter joke still? Has that aspect of the matter been considered by Her Majesty's Government, or is the provision of this sort of "blurb" part of the youth service?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, incitements to crime are matters which have to be dealt with under the criminal law, but I trust that I have made it clear to your Lordships that in this particular matter the Home Office have no power; and also that the Director of Public Prosecutions, as I said in my original Answer, does not regard these words in the way in which they have been published as constituting a criminal offence. Therefore no action is called for on the part of Her Majesty's Government.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, the Government have recently announced that they propose to introduce a measure to deal with incitement to racial violence. Will not the Government also consider whether the ambit of that measure ought to include incitement to violence against the blind?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I will take note of what the noble and learned Viscount says, but I cannot seriously regard these words as being likely to be taken by any mentally normal person as encouragement or incitement to commit a crime.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, has the Director of Public Prosecutions or any other legal adviser of Her Majesty's Government considered whether this is not an obscene publication?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I indicated in my original Answer that the attention of the Director of Public Prosecutions had been directed to the noble Lord's Question, and I am quite sure that in his review of the words complained of he would have considered any offence which might have been committed.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I ask one final question? What steps

285
have been taken by the Decca Company to withdraw this offensive publication, and to apologise for it?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, that, of course, is not the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government, and I am not aware of any steps that have been taken. But I am very glad that the noble Lord has asked this Question, and I hope that Mr. Lewis, the chairman of the company (if he is still chairman), will take appropriate action in the matter, now and in the future.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, will my noble friend take care to see that the mere use of offensive words is not made a criminal offence, otherwise it would be extremely dangerous for any of us to refer to our fellow citizens as being "stark raving bonkers"?

COMMITTALS FOR DEBT
2.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the average number of persons in prison at any one time as a result of non-compliance with court orders for the discharge of debts.]
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, it is estimated that during 1963, the latest year for which complete figures are available, an average of about 200 persons committed by county courts, and about 260 civil process prisoners committed by magistrates' courts, would have been in custody at any one time.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that on March 3, when announcing the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the law and practice relating to the recovery of debts, the Minister without Portfolio stated that there were about 7,000 people in prison at any one time for non-payment of debts? Is the noble Lord further aware that this statement, which his Answer to-day shows was wholly incorrect, received the widest publicity and has not, so far as I am aware, been corrected until to-day? Does not the noble Lord regard it as regrettable
286
that the facts were not accurately stated, and does he not think that here again, perhaps, an apology might be indicated?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I was aware that on March 3, in another place, my honourable friend the Minister without Portfolio had made the statement to which the noble and learned Viscount referred. He did so in agreeing to a statement made by the honourable Member, Dame Joan Vickers. However, the noble and learned Viscount is quite wrong in thinking that the statement has not been corrected, because my right honourable friend the Home Secretary gave the correct figures the very next day in another place, in answering a question from the right honourable gentleman Mr. Henry Brooke. He further added the information that 7,047 persons committed by county courts and 3,669 civil process prisoners were committed to prison by magistrates' courts in 1963. It may well have been that the Minister without Portfolio had this in mind. The mistake has been corrected, but I am quite sure that he regrets —and certainly I do—that it was made.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am very glad to know that the mistake has been corrected, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for the information that he has given. Of course, the figure for the number of committal orders bears no relation to the numbers actually committed for contempt of court, for not complying with court orders.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount. I hope he will agree with me that there are still too many people in prison on these orders, and that it is always advisable for Ministers to have their Portfolios with them.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, would the noble Lord break down these figures which he has given, and tell me what proportion are in relation to affiliation orders and maintenance orders?
LORD STONHAM: No, my Lords. I am afraid that I cannot give my noble friend that information, but I shall be glad to write to her on that point. I would say that the numbers relating to affiliation orders would be included in the total of 3,669 civil process prisoners committed by the magistrates' courts. It would be a number somewhat less than

287
that. But I will certainly let my noble friend know what the answer is.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would give the information in Hansard, as an Answer to a Written Question, as I think it would be information most useful to have.
LORD STONHAM: Yes, my Lords. I will certainly do that.

SUPERANNUATION (INNER LONDON MAGISTRATES' COURTS) REGULATIONS, 1965
2.53 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the Superannuation (Inner London Magistrates' Courts) Regulations, 1965, a draft of which was laid before your Lordships' House on February 24, be approved. These Regulations are necessary because of the integration of the two systems of magistrates' courts in this County of London—the Metropolitan stipendiary magistrates' courts and the petty sessional courts of lay justices—which is effected by the Administration of Justice Act, 1964. The relevant part of the Act comes into operation on April 1, 1965. This change will naturally affect the staff of the two sets of courts, who are to be transferred, by an order made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, to the employment of the Committee of Magistrates for the Inner London Area. This Committee has been set up under Section 13 of the Administration of Justice Act, 1964, to administer the integrated courts, which are to be known as the Inner London magistrates' courts.
The Committee of Magistrates has been negotiating with representatives of the staff concerned about the conditions of service which should apply in future to the staff of the Inner London courts. All concerned have agreed that, subject to the protection of the interests of the existing staff of the petty sessional courts, who are at present subject to a scheme of local government contributory pensions, the superannuation scheme which should apply in future is the non-contributory scheme at present enjoyed by the staff of the Metropolitan magistrates' courts. The Regulations therefore
288
have two purposes: first, to apply this Metropolitan scheme to the staff of the Inner London magistrates' courts; and second, to protect the interests of the lay staff.
Regulation 1 extends to the justices' clerks for the Inner London area, and other officers employed by the Committee of Magistrates for the Inner London Area, the non-contributory scheme of superannuation under the Metropolitan Police Staff (Superannuation) Acts, 1875 to 1931. Regulation 2 and the Schedule allow the existing staff of the County of London petty sessional courts, after their transfer to the employment of the Committee of Magistrates, to continue to enjoy their present scheme of local government contributory pensions if they so wish. However, since that scheme is operated by the London County Council it is necessary to make special provision in the Regulations to allow the scheme to be carried on. This will be achieved by making use of the Greater London Council superannuation fund and requiring the Committee of Magistrates, as employer, to take certain discretionary decisions which were previously taken by the County of London Magistrates' Courts Committee.
The Regulations have been drafted after consultation with the Greater London Council and the associations representing the staff concerned. Except for two points raised by the London Justices' Clerks Society (who represent the clerks of the lay justices', as distinct from the metropolitan, courts) to which we felt unable to agree, the Regulations are an agreed measure. I will elaborate on these somewhat technical points, if your Lordships so desire, but perhaps it is sufficient for me to say that one of the provisions proposed would, in our view, have been ultra vires, and the other would have introduced a novel and, as we think, undesirable, element into the "no detriment" provisions. In neither case does our refusal of the proposal imply a worsening of the position of the persons concerned in relation to their former position. The Regulations are designed to ensure that the position of all the staff concerned is not less favourable with regard to superannuation after transfer than it was before, and I can assure your Lordships that that has been achieved. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Superannuation (Inner London Magistrates' Courts) Regulations, 1965, laid before the House on 24th February, be approved.—(Lord Stonham.)
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for this explanation of the Regulations. I think I can tell him straight away that they are quite satisfactory to this side of the House, more especially since, as he explained, they command a very broad measure of agreement by all the parties concerned.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POLICE PENSIONS (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1965
2.59 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations, 1965, a draft of which was laid before your Lordships' House on February 24 last, be approved. These draft Regulations amend the Police Pensions Regulations, 1962, and they fall into three parts. Part 1 increases certain widows' and children's benefits payable under the Police Pensions Regulations by amounts corresponding to the increases in National Insurance benefits made by the National Insurance, Etc., Act, 1964. it is necessary to make this special provision because the police were excluded from the contributory old-age pensions scheme which existed before National insurance Schemes were introduced in 1948 and, as a result, some police widows and children are not entitled to those benefits. Police authorities are, therefore, given discretion to pay corresponding benefits under the Police Pensions Regulations.
The effect of Part I of the Regulations is to give these special classes of police widows and children increases corresponding to the National Insurance increases. Your Lordships will not wish me to quote all the figures, because they are incorporated in the draft Regulations, but as examples it may be helpful to mention that a widow will get £5 12s. 6d. instead of £4 15s. a week over and above her basic pension for the first 13 weeks of widowhood, and thereafter £4 instead of £3 7s. 6d. a week above her ordinary police pension; and the allowance payable in respect of a child where both
290
parents are dead will be a maximum of 40s. instead of 37s. 6d. a week. These, your Lordships will agree, are desirable and acceptable amendments.
In Part II the amendments flow mainly from provisions of the Police Act, 1964. This Act provides that, with effect from April 1 next, a police authority, acting with the approval of the Secretary of State, may call upon a chief constable, deputy chief constable or assistant chief constable to retire in the interests of efficiency. The draft amending Regulations 8 and 9 ensure that an officer so required to retire will be entitled to an ordinary or short-service pension according to the length of his service. Regulation 10 ensures that he will be able to commute part of the pension for a lump sum. Regulation 13 excludes these officers from the existing provisions of the 1962 Regulations, which provide for the compulsory retirement in the interests of efficiency of police officers who have an entitlement to maximum pension. These provisions, of course, would otherwise overlap the provisions of the Police Act to which I have referred.
The Police Act also makes further provisions for schemes to be made amalgamating police areas. On or after April 1, amalgamation schemes will be coming into operation which may result in a chief constable losing his post, and orders may be made under the Local Government Act, 1958, making boundary changes affecting police areas and, of course, a chief constable's post. Regulation 14 inserts into the Police Pensions Regulations a new Regulation 74A to provide for chief constables who are affected by these schemes and orders. The new Regulation secures that a chief constable who loses office in this way shall be treated as having retired. If he joins another police force within a prescribed period, his service is to be treated as continuous for pension purposes. If he continues in the police service but suffers reduction in rank, the new Regulation provides that he shall be entitled to retain the age of compulsory retirement applicable to his former rank.
Special provision is made in the case of a chief constable losing office who was already a chief constable on July 1, 1964,

291
when the provisions of the Police Act, 1964, relating to local government reorganisation and amalgamation schemes came into operation. The new Regulation 74A, read with the new sub-paragraph (e) added to Regulation 3(1) of the 1962 Regulations by Regulation 9, secures (believe it or not) that if he loses office as a member of a police force he shall, regardless of age, be entitled to an ordinary or short-service pension, according to the length of his service. Incidentally, the draft Regulations we are now considering make the sixth set of amendments to the 1962 regulations. I should explain that the rights of chief constables who are affected by local government reorganisation or a police amalgamation scheme will not be limited to those arising under the Police Pensions Regulations, as amended by these draft Regulations. It is intended that compensation regulations will be made under the Local Government Act, 1958, entitling them to claim compensation for loss of office or diminution of emoluments. Special provision will also be made in the compensation regulations for chief constables who held that rank on July 1, 1964.
In Part III your Lordships will notice that Regulation 17 provides that Part I of the Regulations—that for widows and children—shall come into force on March 29, when the increased National Insurance benefits become payable. Part II, however, comes into operation on April 1 because certain provisions of the Police Act, 1964, and police amalgamation schemes under that Act, on which Part II of the Regulations is mainly consequent, come into operation on that date. The Police Councils for England and Wales and for Scotland have been consulted and are in agreement with the proposal that these amendments should be made. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 1965, laid before the House on February 24, be approved.—(Lord Stonham.)
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should again like to thank the noble Lord for his careful and clear explanation of these draft Regulations. I can again assure him that, at least so far as I am concerned, they are perfectly satisfactory.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL [H.L.]
3.7 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the House to be in Committee (on Re-commitment).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Gardiner.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): This Bill has been amended by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. If your Lordships permit it, I will put the Question, That Clauses 1 to 32 inclusive stand part of the Bill, unless any noble Lord wishes to speak on any of those clauses.
Clauses 1 to 32 agreed to.
Clause 33 [Discharge of mortgages in England and Wales]:
THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved, in subsection (1) to leave out the word "land", where it first occurs, and to insert "property". The noble and learned Lord said: With the leave of the Committee, it would probably be of convenience to the Committee to take the two new Amendments together. In their First Report, the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills reported that they had considered the Bill, and that:
"No representation was received by the Committee with respect to the Memorandum setting forth the corrections and minor improvements of the law proposed in the Bill.
"The proposals were approved by the Committee, subject to an amendment to proposal 19.
"The Committee are of the opinion that the Bill consolidates the existing law with such corrections and improvements as can properly be authorised under the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act, 1949. They have made certain amendments which seem to them necessary to the improvement of the form of the Bill, and they considered that there is no point to which the attention of Parliament ought to be drawn."

293
In these circumstances, it is somewhat unusual, though not unknown, for the Committee of the Whole House to amend a Consolidation Bill in the form in which it has been reported by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. In this case, however, there are special reasons for inviting the Committee to do so.
The Joint Committee reported on the Bill largely, of course, as a result of the draftsmen's evidence that the Bill consolidates the existing law with such corrections and improvements as can properly be authorised. It was only after the Joint Committee had reported that it was brought to the notice of the draftsmen that Clause 33 of the Bill contains an error in consolidation which would, in fact, make a change in the law which has not been authorised in pursuance of the 1949 Act. This clause deals with the discharge of a mortgage by endorsing it with a receipt for the moneys secured by it. The clause is intended to re-enact the effect of Section 43 of the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, as amended by Section 115(9) of the Law of Property Act, 1925, with corrections and improvements made under the 1949 Act. Clause 33, however, is in terms of a mortgage of land, whereas Sections 43 and 115 are in terms of mortgages of property. This would have the result of narrowing the scope of the provision, but excluding from the operation of Clause 33 certain mortgages—for instance, mortgages on life policies, which are covered by the existing provisions. This change was not intended and is not covered by the corrections and improvements authorised under the 1949 Act, and for that reason was not drawn to the attention of the Joint Committee. These two Amendments, therefore, are designed to correct the error in consolidation by making the Bill reproduce more accurately the effect of the existing law. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 35, leave out ("land") and insert ("property").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: The noble and learned Lord has made out an overwhelming case for this Amendment and I want to add only a few words. It is, indeed, a very rare occurrence that any slip is made by the Parliamentary Counsel which leads to Amendments such as
294
are being proposed to-day being moved after one has had the Report of the Joint Committee. Indeed, thinking back, I cannot remember in the last 22 years a previous occasion on which this has happened. The fact that it has not happened or has happened very seldom, is due to the very great care and trouble that the Parliamentary Counsel take over these matters. I wish to emphasise the rarity of this because it underlines the skill which they exercise and which they have to possess in their securing that this procedure under the 1946 Act is fully carried out. Of course, the Joint Committee also spend a great deal of time, and one ought to be grateful to them also for going through the suggested alterations in detail; and there are sometimes a great many of them. Very little escapes their notice.
I think that what has happened to-day—the noble and learned Lord having to move these two Amendments—shows, as is generally recognised, not only the importance of consolidation but the fact that if you are going to consolidate it is an extremely difficult task and must be done very carefully indeed, as it always has been. I hope the Parliamenmentary Counsel will not feel, because this Amendment has to be moved at this late stage, that this means there is any reflection on the way in which they conduct their work. I do not know how this particular defect came to light, but I know myself how thorough they are and what steps they take to try to get a Consolidation Bill absolutely right.
LORD PEDDIE: I am sure the Committee will join in paying tribute to the excellence and skill of the Parliamentary draftsmen. It is pleasing to learn of the infrequency of errors of this description. I am sure the Committee will appreciate also the action taken in effecting this Amendment because inaction would have meant considerable confusion where industrial provident societies are concerned.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount and to the noble Lord for their observations. I agree that the rarity of the occasion is an example of the high skill and industry of the Parliamentary draftsmen.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 3, leave out ("land") and insert ("property").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with Amendments.

REMUNERATION OF TEACHERS BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) BILL
Report of Amendments received (according to Order).
KENYA REPUBLIC BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

SWEEPSTAKES ON HORSERACES (AUTHORISATION) BILL [H.L.]
3.18 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I should like at the outset to declare that I have no interest in racing either as owner, trainer or shareholder. I enjoy going to the races and it was in 1919 as a schoolboy that I had my first bet. It was 10s. each way on "Grand Parade", which won the Derby that year at the very satisfactory odds of 33–1. For a short time, I was the richest boy in the school. But facilis descensus Averno, which can be translated as "a sucker is born every five minutes"—the motto, of course, of the Bookmakers' Protection Association and the Victoria Club. I should have liked to call this Bill the Grand National Sweepstake Bill, but I was advised for technical reasons that that would make it a hybrid Bill, for which the procedure would be much more elaborate and expensive.
Before I deal with the clauses of the Bill, I should like to say a word or two about Aintree Racecourse and what I call the Topham story. Your Lordships may have read in the newspapers reports of Lord Sefton's case against Tophams, Ltd. Briefly, the story of this is as follows. In 1949, Tophams acquired the freehold of the racecourse and of certain adjoining land. Under the terms of the conveyance, Tophams are restricted from using the racecourse for any purpose other than racing, and the other land for any purpose other than agriculture, during the life of Lord Sefton and of his wife.
Tophams recently entered into an agreement with Capital and Counties Property Company, Ltd., to sell the whole of the land for housing development. Lord Sefton went to court and was granted an injunction restraining Tophams from proceeding with the sale, as being a contravention of the terms of the conveyance. Tophams have appealed against this decision, and the appeal is pending. But whatever the result of the appeal, there will not be any more Grand Nationals after this year. unless something is done. If the

297
appeal succeeds, Capital and Counties will proceed with the transaction, but they will have to obtain planning permission for their proposed development; and if this were refused, the agreement would no doubt be terminated. Should the appeal fail, Tophams have stated that they will discontinue racing and allow the land to become derelict, no doubt in the hope of compelling some action by the local authority.
Mrs. Topham has stated that the racecourse is no longer a paying proposition. I have not been to Aintree for many years, but I am told, on good authority, that the stands are in a deplorable condition and that the whole place has a rundown look. In fact, a large sum is needed to put it in order. This situation would be altered by the passing of this Bill and the authorisation of a sweepstake on the Grand National. The profit to he made from the sweepstake would make ownership of the racecourse an attractive proposition.
In that event, Tophams would have two alternatives open to them. The first would be to sell the racecourse to the actual or potential promoters of the sweepstake, who would be prepared to pay a price calculated by reference to their profits on the sweepstake and the resulting prosperity of the racecourse. The second alternative would be for Tophams to retain ownership, and either bid for the right to conduct the sweepstake or merely reap the benefits which would flow from a sweepstake run by another. Your Lordships will see, when we come to Clause 2 of the Bill, that the sum paid for the right to conduct a sweepstake must be first applied in improving the racecourse. If, as it is reasonable to suppose, the racecourse improvement results in increased attendances, the racecourse will once again become a valuable asset, which Tophams could either continue to run or, if they thought fit, dispose of at a profit.
The Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill sets out the clauses very clearly, and I do not propose to go through them other than briefly. Clause 1 authorises the promotion of sweepstakes, lays down the conditions that are to apply and provides for the nomination of at least one race, and not more than two races, on which it will be legal to conduct a sweepstake. The clause also deals with the purposes to which the proceeds are to be devoted
298
and ensures that the right to conduct the sweepstake will be put out to public tender. This is very important, and I hope that your Lordships will take note of it.
Clause 2 provides that the sums paid by the successful tenderer for the right to promote the sweepstake shall be applied, in the first place, towards improving the racecourse concerned, as well as horseracing thereat, and that any balance shall be passed over to the improvement of horseracing in general. Clause 3 provides that the Secretary of State for Education and Science shall be the authority to decide how the appropriate proportion of the proceeds shall be spent. On what I call some good cause, I have suggested medical research, but here I am open to suggestions. All I want to do is to make sure that the proceeds go to some worthwhile cause, and I am not wedded to medical research, although it is probably as good as any. Clause 4 makes it the responsibility of the local authority concerned to evolve and provide the recreational facilities referred to in subsection (2)(d) of Clause 1.
Your Lordships will note that my proposals in the Bill are that 50 per cent. of the proceeds shall go as prizes to the purchasers of tickets, 25 per cent. to assisting medical research and 2½ per cent. to providing recreational facilities for the public. In tendering for the right to promote a sweepstake, the tenderer will have to estimate how much of the remaining 22½ per cent. he can afford to offer, while leaving sufficient to cover his expenses and provide a profit. I think the competition will be very keen and that any successful promoter will have to give back a large "chunk" of his 22½ per cent. The remaining clauses of the Bill deal with technical details, with which I need not trouble your Lordships to-day.
My Lords, that is the Bill. And we have to ask ourselves two questions. Is the Grand National worth trying to save, and, if so, is this a good way of doing it? The Grand National is part of the British tradition. It gives pleasure to a vast number of people in this country. Many who never bet at all have a few shillings on the Derby and the Grand National every year. I am confident that anyone who has seen the actual race, or watched it on television, will agree

299
that it is the kind of spectacle which helps to build up Britain's prestige, not only in connection with racing in particular, but also the general image of Britain as a sporting nation.
So we come to the question: is the legalisation of possibly two national sweepstakes a year desirable? The Report of the Royal Commission on Betting, Lotteries and Gaming, 1945 to 1951, came out, on balance, rather mildly against national sweepstakes. On rereading their Report, I find their reasoning very out of date. They said that a national lottery would discourage thrift. This rings rather hollow to-day, when we have thousands of betting shops, and when bingo and premium bonds are all legal.
The Report gave some interesting figures in regard to a survey which was carried out at that time by Mass Observation. This showed that about 30 per cent. of those questioned did not know what a national lottery was, but of those who did, not less than 71 per cent. approved of the idea, 4 per cent. expressed no opinion and only 25 per cent. disagreed. I suggest that to-day many more than 30 per cent. would know what a national lottery was, and probably more than 71 per cent. would be in favour of it. My supposition is fortified by the Daily Express of March 11, in which they had the result of a Public Opinion Poll where people were asked two questions. The first was:
"Would you, in general, approve or disapprove of the idea that we have a State Lottery in Britain if the profits went, for instance, to hospitals, medical research et cetera?"
The answer was that 88 per cent. approved and 12 per cent. disapproved. The other question was:
"If there was such a lottery about once a month, with tickets at say 10s. each, do you think you would buy a ticket?"
The answers were:
"Every time, 19 per cent. Sometimes, 60 per cent. Never, 21 per cent."
We come now to what I call the "thin end of the wedge" argument; that if you allow one lottery, where are you going to stop? This is why we have in the Bill a limit of two national sweepstakes, confined, I hope, to the two great sporting events, the Grand National and the Derby. If one looks at the social
300
side, I think it is hypocritical to give facilities to people to spend hours in betting shops and yet not allow them to buy tickets for a national sweepstake once or twice a year.
To sum up, the Grand National is worthwhile, and it is worth saving. This is a sound method of doing it. The sweepstake will provide money for Aintree local amenities, for racing generally and for some worthwhile cause, such as medical research. We are not thinking in terms of small amounts. If Eire can sell £6 million worth of tickets a year on sweepstakes, I am sure that this country can sell at least £10 million worth of tickets a year. This means £2½ million for a worthwhile cause, and at least £1 million for racing. Nearly everyone I have spoken to about this Bill has been enthusiastically in favour of it. This attitude I take to be endorsed by Mr. Wigg, the Paymaster-General, who is reported to have said yesterday, apropos of the dispute about televising the Derby:
"It is a grim thought that if this dispute is not solved the end of T.V. racing may be in sight; the pleasure of millions may be threatened."
It would be an even grimmer thought if there were no Grand National to televise. The people of this country want this Bill and if Her Majesty's Government actively try to frustrate it, let them beware, because they will find that they have incurred the wrath of thousands of their supporters in the constituencies. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Jessel.)
3.35 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, is to be congratulated upon his valiant and ingenious effort to save the Grand National in this way. I think I must be younger than the noble Lord. Certainly I was not sufficiently compos mentis to be on "Grand Parade" at 33 to 1 in the Derby of 1919. It was not until "Call Boy" won in 1928 that my first schoolboy winning bet took place, and the odds were only 4 to 1. So my facilis descensus Averno was not quite so steep. This surely is not a Party matter: at any rate, I, for my part, speak on my own behalf, and I do not

301
seek to bind other noble Lords who sit on these Benches by what I have to say.
I do not personally feel at all against lotteries, as such, and I do not feel against a lottery for this kind of purpose. But I do feel that perhaps we should examine the avowed purpose of this particular lottery, the Grand National steeplechase. May I straight away get rid of two matters which I am certainly not going to put forward. I am not going to suggest that the Grand National is cruel; and I am not going to suggest that it is Parliament's job to try to teach the racing authorities how horse racing should be conducted. Nevertheless, if Parliament is to be asked to approve a national lottery for a particular horse race, let us have a good look at the horse race and see whether we think it is worthy in its present form of being the subject of a national lottery.
I think the Grand National carries by far the richest prize in the whole of steeplechasing, being worth, I believe, some £20,000 to the winner. One might suppose, therefore, that the finest steeplechasers would take part in the Grand National, and that the horse that won it might have some claim to be regarded as the champion steeplechaser. The extraordinary thing is that this is not the case. Last year, the outstandingly champion steeplechaser in Ireland was "Arkle", and the outstandingly champion steeplechaser in this country was "Mill House". Neither of these horses ran in the Grand National last year. This year, both of these great horses have kept their places as the undisputed champions in their two countries; but neither of them will run in the Grand National. "Arkle" was not even entered for this year's Grand National. "Mill House" was entered, but he was withdrawn from the race a good many weeks ago.
The reason for this is not far to seek. The Grand National, as I am sure all your Lordships know, is a handicap race. The purpose of the handicapper is to try to secure that every horse has an equal chance of winning the race, and a brilliant horse like "Arkle" or "Mill House" is going to be weighed down with such an enormous burden that he will be slowed down to the pace of his much more moderate rivals in the race, and his chance of winning the £20,000 will be brought down to being no better than that
302
of any of his rivals. I should have thought that this was something of a defect. Admittedly, there is the Cheltenham Gold Cup for the champions. But the Cheltenham Gold Cup is worth 2½ times less than the Grand National: I think it is worth about £8,000, as against the £20,000 of the Grand National. This is not just my surmise, because, if I may quote from the racing correspondent of The Times on February 26, he wrote:
"It is the type of Grand National with no top horse in it this year for everyone to try their luck."
For all I know, the authorities who conduct the racing at Aintree may feel along these lines, as I do. They may wish, for all I know, that the Grand National should be a true championship race. But undoubtedly it is a very expensive event to stage, and it may well be that they have to draw in the crowds by making the race a wider open betting proposition, swelling the tote takings, encouraging bookmakers to come in in large numbers and pay large licence fees in order to bet, and so on. So only in this way can the Grand National, as things are at present, be made a financial proposition. If this Bill is passed, presumably the financial worries of the Aintree authorities are going to be swept away; there is going to be plenty of money to finance the Grand National. That being so, has not the time come for making the Grand National a true championship race so that we may say that the horse which wins it has some claim to being regarded as the champion steeplechaser?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware how many runners there are likely to be in this year's Grand National, and how many runners there were in this year's Cheltenham Gold Cup?
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I understand that there were four runners in this year's Cheltenham Gold Cup. I hope that, as I am under examination from the noble Duke, he will put me right if I am wrong—because I am sure he will be able to—but I understand that the number of runners in the Grand National this year is likely to be something over forty. I suppose there will be a cavalry charge to the first fence; I suppose there will be a number of fallers; I suppose that a great many of those

303
fallers will become loose horses which will interfere with the jockeys still in the race trying to win, and I should not be surprised if some cynic, watching from the stands, said to his companion, "You seem to have something of a lottery here already. Do you mean to say you are trying to superimpose a lottery on it?" It seems, with due respect, that the Grand National would be on the whole an improved national event if it were a championship event.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I must cross swords once more with the noble Lord. If you turned the Grand National into a championship race, in which all horses carried the same weight, it would cease to be the Grand National. I have every respect for the Cheltenham Gold Cup—it is a magnificent race to win. But the Grand National is known throughout the world, and the Cheltenham Gold Cup is known throughout the British Isles, and that is the difference between the two.
LORD AIREDALE: The noble Duke has laid the ground for my peroration in this debate. What I was going to suggest was that the Aintree authorities, having been relieved of the financial burden of finding the prize money for the Grand National, will presumably be able to find, say, £5,000 for the prize money of a handicap race for the second-rate horses —or the second best horses perhaps is a fairer expression to use—to be run over the Grand National course, which would be for the future what the Grand National has been in the past. But let the race for which the lottery is to be conducted be a championship race, so that there is some reward for exercising skill in training your horse to be the best steeplechaser, which will then have the best chance of winning by far the greatest prize in steeplechasing.
3.45 p.m.
LORD GREENWAY: My Lords, this is not the first time that I have addressed your Lordships, because I have been guilty of interrupting on previous occasions and I crave your indulgence and forgiveness. This Bill is a simple and most interesting one. It concerns not only England, but the whole of the world, including, I can say, the whole of Rhodesia. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has just come back from Rhodesia. I used
304
to be there many times when federation was going on, and I am sure that even in Zambia or Malawi they still follow the Grand National and will be having their bets. The Grand National is part of our life, and no matter what colour a man may be he will always look forward to it.
My noble friend Lord Jessel quoted a report in The Times. In the Evening News on Friday night there was an even better report; and I think it said that 99 "guys" out of a hundred in London support it. I was talking to a "guy" from Manchester and he said, "If you don't get that Bill through we shall be after you". I will not take up any more of your Lordships' time, except to say that this Bill must be passed, otherwise we shall lose a national institution.
3.47 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, first I must apologise to my noble friend Lord Jessel for the fact that I did not hear what he had to say in his speech, but I feel, knowing him as I do, that I would thoroughly support all that he said. Also, I would say that I thoroughly support the principles of this Bill. If I am allowed to assume that one of the selected races permitted under the Bill will be the Grand National, I think it would be a great pity if this Bill were not passed, and that thereby the Grand National as a race was allowed to die. To say that it could be moved to any other course is simply untrue. It is not the quality of the horses which attracts; it is not the distance over which it is run: it is simply the fact that it is the Grand National and that it will always be run at Aintree over the Aintree fences that makes it what it is, and makes it the world attraction that it is.
The amount of revenue which the Grand National brings into this country is already quite considerable. There are American owners and Irish owners. There have been in the past French owners and, I think, on one occasion an Italian owner. They all run their horses in this race. Indeed, there have been Russian owners. The argument is less good there, because on the whole the Russians do not come to support their horses, although I am sure that if they did we should much appreciate the roubles they would bring with them. But

305
the Americans, Irish and French certainly come in very large numbers purely to see this race, and this brings in quite large sums of foreign currency.
In addition, if the sweepstake was started, many of the tickets would be bought abroad. At the moment, I believe that something like 50 per cent. of the tickets taken on the Irish Hospital Sweepstake are taken by people normally resident in this country, and that this money, or the vast proportion of it, ends up in Ireland. Much of this money could be saved from going to Ireland and could be kept in this country if there were a sweepstake on the Grand National on which people could have their little "flutter". If we really put our minds behind this sweepstake, I am sure that many tickets could be sold all over the world. The Australians, I believe, are the biggest gamblers in the world, but many other countries would probably be prepared to take tickets in a sweepstake on a race as well known as the Grand National.
Therefore I very much hope that this Bill will get its Second Reading and will become law without any delay, because delay would be fatal. There are no fixtures scheduled for Aintree after this year, and if there were a year's gap in the continuity of the Grand National the whole point of the Bill, and the Grand National, would in my opinion be lost. I hope, therefore, that it will become law as soon as possible.
LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE: My Lords, the noble Duke does not seem to have mentioned Scotland at all in his speech.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: For the noble Lord's benefit, may I say that the favourite for the Grand National this year comes from Scotland, and we in Scotland are full of hope that for the first time ever the trophy will come North of the Border. We have had several near misses, including the gallant "Wyndburgh" who has run second three times in the last ten years, but we have never yet succeeded in getting a Scottish winner, although we hope that "Freddy" will put that right this year.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, is it not true, and also very much regretted, that the horse called "Scottish Memories" comes from Ireland?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, it is owned by someone who lives in Scotland—who in fact lives in Perthshire, I am delighted to say.
3.52 p.m.
LORD CRAWSHAW: My Lords, this is the first time I have had the honour of speaking in your Lordships' House and I would beg that kindness which I gather noble Lords always show on such an occasion. It is, in fact, a few years since I took my seat in your Lordships' House, and all this time I have been fully aware that I should be well advised to keep silent unless there was a subject about which I felt fairly well informed. I know I am not as well informed on this subject as many in your Lordships' House, but it is a subject very close to my heart; therefore I felt that perhaps I might be allowed to speak. Had I realised before I came that I should speak under such close scrutiny from the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, I should have been even more awe-struck than I am already.
The object of the Bill is to help in the plight of Aintree, along with its great and unique race. I have been there fairly frequently in the past few years and have been sadly shocked by the increasing drabness that surrounds it. The place needs a great deal of money spent on it which the proposed sweepstake would help to provide. The proceeds from the sweepstake would also help to increase the stakes, which would assist all engaged in racing. As one who tries to train a couple of steeplechasers, without much success, I even hope that the place money may be extended to those who finish fourth, fifth, sixth and so on. The third object of the Bill is for the proceeds to be used for medical research or some other such cause, and I am sure that that is an object which we should all acclaim. I believe it is no crime to invest a small sum in a sweepstake, especially when there are three such praiseworthy objectives for the proceeds.
My Lords, I have come up this morning from a part of England, Leicestershire, where the horse and his rider are held in very high esteem. The hero of all

307
heroes is the winner of the Grand National and his rider. I know the great support there is for this Bill in that part of England as, I believe, there is in all of England. Therefore I would ask your Lordships to give this Bill your solid support and help save the Grand National, as all people well-informed in racing believe that it will.
3.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I heartily welcome this Bill, but before I speak about it it is my extremely pleasant duty —in fact one of the most pleasant duties I have ever had to perform—to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Crawshaw, on his maiden speech in this House. Lord Crawshaw was a gallant rider over fences, and I can assure your Lordships that there is no one better qualified in this House to address your Lordships on this subject than the noble Lord himself. The noble Lord's spirit and gallantry is apparent for all your Lordships to see. I should also like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on addressing your Lordships for the first time.
My Lords, we often hear the expression "perfidious Albion". It is very rarely true, but when it comes to our moral attitude to gambling I am afraid it really is rather true; for instance, on the question: when is gambling a sin? The Church of England, I presume, regards all gambling as a sin. What the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church is on this subject I do not really know, but from my experience when I was younger of the number of priests at Irish racecourses I rather imagine that the Roman Catholic Church do not object to gambling. But, surely, gambling is only a sin if people gamble above their means and, therefore, their families suffer. I must apologise to the right reverend Prelates on raising this question, but the attitude of the Church to gambling is a subject which interests me. After all, I presume that the Church to a certain extent does gamble, inasmuch as the Church Commissioners buy shares and, I presume, hope that the shares will increase in value.
The only gambling I do is on horse-racing, and here I have to declare a very small interest, in that I do have an odd horse in training sometimes.
LORD JESSEL: A very odd horse.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: But I have a hopeful one this year. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel, told us that his addiction to betting came in 1919. My own came in 1924 at Punchestown. I was a boy at the time and I had 5s. on a horse. I cannot remember the odds, but they were quite long. Unfortunately I lost the bookmaker's ticket and so was extremely perturbed and was kicking up a row about it. A very nice bookmaker heard me, took pity and paid me out. Of course, I was completely sunk after that, because for quite a few weeks I was inclined to think that all bookmakers were fairy godmothers. I soon realised otherwise.
My Lords, there is also a school of thought that says there is something immoral if you win a big sum of money by gambling. When people win, as they can, I think, £200,000 from the football pools, which is of course a complete fluke, the argument is that it is probably rather bad for their character. Well, of course that depends on the character of the recipient, but there is probably something in the argument. But not all gambling is chance. Some gambling requires skill and great experience and study.
I have never understood why the various Governments of this country have always been against State lotteries, because in this country we have far more pernicious forms of gambling. After all, in a betting shop a man can spend his whole pay packet in an afternoon. I remember reading about a survey by some Americans, who came over here and made a survey of betting shops in this country. The worrying part was, I understand, that when there is a slight rise in unemployment the betting shops do far better. I am not too happy about betting shops on the whole. But if a man takes a 10s. ticket in a State lottery, you cannot call that gambling, because he knows that half that money is going to a worthy cause, and he invests only what he is able to afford. He has no temptation, as he has in a betting shop, to double up. I do not personally call a State lottery gambling, but even if you call it gambling it is a far less harmful form than betting.
We have heard from my noble friend the object of this Bill. It is to be strictly

309
controlled by the Secretary of State. It is only in the first instance to be for one horse-race, presumably the Grand National, and if that experiment turns out successfully, probably two horseraces—the other horse-race, I presume, would be the Derby. Two or three speakers have told us of the great history of the Grand National. Racing generally is, of course, a very large industry. It employs tens of thousands of people. It helps the farmers through the sale of hay and oats. It is a great export industry through the bloodstock industry. It is, in fact, the only industry connected with gambling which helps the economy at all. One cannot say that casinos or football pools or any of those other things—I can think of all sorts of things —help the economy; but racing does. The Government must bear that in mind.
The Grand National is a part of the English scene. It has been going since quite early in the 19th century. We have heard that our tourist industry in this country is growing at a great rate; it is almost our largest dollar earner, I think. Last year we earned about 380 million dollars from the tourist industry, I think I am correct in saying, or something approaching that. If we allow great events like the National to drop out of our calendar, this country will not be so attractive for tourists. We have also heard that if we have a State lottery for the National we shall sell a great number of tickets abroad, which, again, will help to bring in foreign currency.
I ask the Government not to take up the attitude of a Mrs. Grundy on this matter. Logically they have not got a leg to stand on. After all, premium bonds are coming very near a lottery. I agree that one can get the money back, but it is coming very near a lottery. Look at some of the immoral taxation in which the State indulges. If you are going to speak of morals, I would say that it is far more moral to have a State lottery to help hospitals and public facilities for recreation. I agree it is not a Party matter, but I have often thought that the Party opposite are rather looked upon by the public as kill-joys. If the Party opposite would only allow this Bill to go through, I am quite convinced—though of course it is against the interests of my Party to say so—that they would gain tens of thousands of votes, because it
310
would be a very popular act. I heartily support this Bill, and I sincerely hope that the noble Lord opposite—I understand Lord Stonham is going to reply—will not appear in the clothes of a Mrs. Grundy.
LORD MOYNE: My Lords, it is perhaps not inappropriate that we should be discussing this measure on the eve of St. Patrick's Day. Though I am not much of a racing or sweepstake man myself, I do know of the immense benefits that flowed to the hospitals in Ireland from the establishment of the sweepstakes there a good many years ago. But if I understand it aright, it is still technically against the law for a British citizen to take a ticket in an Irish sweepstake. While we ourselves, rightly or wrongly, held the view here that it was against public policy to allow people to take part in a sweepstake at all, it was logical to forbid their doing so in sweepstakes overseas. But I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, that in seeking by this measure to change the law to allow sweepstakes to be organised over here, he will make us look rather hypocrites if we are still to be left committing an offence every time we participate in a sweepstake across the water.
4.10 p.m.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, I rise to address the House for the first time, although it is not the first time that I have made a speech in this Chamber. I made my first speech here in 1945, and I made many more up to 1950, when we were transferred to "another place". I oppose the Bill. I am not opposing it for any angelic reason, because I do not profess to be an angel. I worked too long in the mines to be an angel. I am no killjoy. I like a game of dominoes or of bingo. I back a horse. I go in for any sweeps that attract me, and I am not opposed to a lottery. But I think that under this Bill the proceeds would be going to an entirely wrong cause. If this Bill had been proposed to assist the hospitals I should have fully supported it. I think that the health of the people is an everyday matter and not, like the Grand National, a once-a-year effort. The sick and the infirm are with us every day, and if there is any money going about I think it ought to be theirs. I see no reason to support this Bill for the maintenance of racehorses or racecourses, or even the Grand

311
National. Next year, if Mrs. Topham wins in court, will see the end of the Grand National.
I am not opposed to a lottery Bill, but I believe that the proceeds of a lottery Bill ought to go to something better than horseracing, or the Aintree course, or anything like that. If the proceeds of the Bill had been to help the sick, the aged or the infirm, it would have had my full support. But I could not vote for the proceeds of a lottery to go to maintain horseracing. I know that £866 million per annum is spent on various forms of gambling in this country—on bingo, horseracing, does, anything you can think of. Any Bill which would take from this sum up to £100 million a year for our hospitals, I would support. Ireland, Australia and France have their lotteries on horses. They run them to help their hospitals in their own country. I do not see why we should not do it here. I want to make my position quite clear. I do not oppose this Bill on principle, but because the proceeds are to be devoted to a cause which I think is a wrong one, and I hope that the Government will oppose the Bill.
4.14 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, at this moment the nation is wrestling with the huge problem of its balance of trade. At this moment the whole world is worried about Vietnam. But here we are, in one of the greatest Parliaments in the world, discussing the question of horse-racing, and bandying betting tips about the Chamber. I hardly think that this is calculated to enhance the esteem in which we are held in the country.
I do not speak as a killjoy. I do not speak as one who dislikes horses. For many years, I regularly kept two or three hunters. I rode them every day. I took Tuesday off from work every week to ride with the local hounds in my part of the county. I really do like horses; I do like riding, and I have no particular dislike of horse-racing. But I do not want to view this subject from the standpoint of discussing the ethics of gambling. When all is said and done, we live in a world of bingo, of pools, of the Stock Exchange and of the Church Commissioners gambling in equities, of
312
premium bonds introduced by a former Conservative Prime Minister and so on.
There are many people in this country who, as the noble Lord has said, regularly send a pound over the seas for a ticket in the Irish Sweepstake. So I do not want to be any more of a hypocrite than any other noble Lord, or indeed anybody outside this House. But I think we can overestimate the importance of horse-racing as an industry in this country; and I agree with my noble friend Lord Blyton that if there is to be a sweepstake then it should be for a worthy cause. Do not let it in to subsidise what is really a vested private interest—the ownership of the land by a certain family at a certain place.
I was rather struck by an utterance of the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, who said that racing helps the economy. Well, if you go some day to Newmarket Heath and see thousands of people there, thirsting to join in the drive for more productivity, surely that is—
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me to say so, I was referring to the bloodstock industry, which is a great exporting industry. You cannot have a bloodstock industry if you do not have racing to back it up.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, one of my own horses was exported. It was a very fine horse. I bought it from Sir Abe Bailey; so it was a pretty good horse, and it had come from the blood of a Derby winner. But there are even more important export industries than the bloodstock industry. There are steel, textiles, coal. Do not let us get things out of proportion. When we try to pretend on this delightful spring afternoon that the encouragement of the racing industry, and particularly the subsidisation of a particular property firm, is the main thing and the most important thing that this country has to consider—
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, if I may again interrupt the noble Lord, ought we not then to do away with football pools? Football pools serve no useful purpose at all—absolutely none; whereas a State lottery to help racing, would.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, the noble Viscount is jumping up and

313
down like a tick-tack man. May I proceed? As I say, I should not be opposed to a State lottery for a worthy cause. But I do not think this is a worthy cause. Secondly, I should not rush with enthusiasm into a State lottery, even for a worthy cause. But it is not my object this afternoon (I have intervened only at the last moment) to preach a sermon on ethics or morality. I should like to deal only with one small technical point which has come to my notice while reading the Bill. I must confess that I am not too conversant with racing finance, but if your Lordships look at Clause 1(2) you will find that 25 per cent. of the proceeds are to go to research, and 50 per cent. in prizes, and then 2½ per cent., or £150,000, whichever is the greater, is to go to recreation for the public.
Here is the simple and narrow point on which I wish to address your Lordships. If we assume that the proceeds—what are called here "the whole proceeds"—are £500,000, let us proceed to work out the arithmetic of that situation. First of all, we deduct the 25 per cent., which is £125,000. That leaves us with £375,000. Then we deduct the 50 per cent., which is £250,000. That brings us down to £125,000. With £125,000 in our satchel, we march on to the next subsection of the clause, and find that we are committed under this Bill to give somebody £150,000. How do we do it?
LORD JESSEL: You have forgotten the 2½ per cent., first of all.
LORD LEATHERLAND: No. The Bill says,
"two and one-half per cent. … or £150,000 (whichever is the greater)".
And as in the case I have taken the whole proceeds are only £500,000, then the £150,000 would be the greater. So at the end of the two parts of the transaction, we have £125,000 in our satchel. Then we proceed to the third part, and out of that we have to find £150,000. Without walking further down morality lane, I am going to suggest that a Bill which is drawn so carelessly and so irresponsibly as that, certainly ought not to be given a Second Reading by this House.
4.21 p.m.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, I hope that, before the debate concludes, some of us whose names are not down on the list of speakers will be able to put our point of view. I do not know whether
314
or not this Bill had anything to do with Party politics. So far as I am concerned, I hope that it will be entirely free from that. When I was a workman I should have said that the most frequent topic of conversation among my workmates was what was going to win the big race. I saw no particular evidence of immorality about the occasional shilling they put on horse-racing. For myself, I have never been a punter—not because of any moral scruple, but because of the fact that whenever I do bet I generally lose.
My first experience of the Grand National—I forget the year—was the year in which "Poethlyn" was a strong favourite to win. It had won the race the previous year, and the night before the race took place the second year, when his horse was the favourite, the trainer—evidently a kindly soul—walked around the jumps, thought they were stiffer than ever, declared that his horse would have no trouble, but hoped that others would get across, much as he doubted it. On the strength of that very competent prediction, I put £3, which I could ill afford, on "Poethlyn." The race had scarcely started before my acquisitive instincts took hold of me, and I went to a bookmaker and put on another £2. Immediately I had done so, almost as though I had given the signal, the odds against "Poethlyn" lengthened very considerably. I did not discover until later, when I saw the jockey coming in, a mass of bruises and cuts, his clothes in tears and tatters, that "Poethlyn" had fallen at the first jump. My money had really gone to the charitable organisation which maintains the bookmakers.
Nobody can deny that the Grand National is one of our great English spectacles, just as the Derby is. I well remember the dramatic race (I think it was in 1957) when I was able to accompany Mr. Malenkov, who in those days was a prominent personality in Soviet Russia, to see the race. It was a race in which "Devon Loch", the Queen Mother's horse, was approaching the winning post with a clear lead, but through some misfortune—cramp or something of the kind—the horse collapsed and lost the race. I told Mr. Malenkov that if he went to the Grand National every year subsequently he would never see a more dramatic event on that course than that one.

315
The purpose of the Bill is a perfectly sensible one. Here we have a racecourse which quite clearly is falling into decay, partly because of lack of patronage and partly because of lack of resources on the part of the owner to meet any temporary misfortune of that kind. The purpose of this Bill, so far as I understood the very condensed, sensible and logical speech of the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading, is to restore that racecourse to a position whereby it can, to say the least, provide those who go there with comfort and make the course something of what it was in its heyday.
I agree with the noble Lord who said earlier that perhaps the references to the proportions of the money raised by the sweepstake should be revised. I assume that that kind of thing could be dealt with at the Committee stage of the Bill. This Bill, like other Bills, is subject to amendment. The mover has shown no bias, and I should think that he would be amenable to Amendments which would conduce to the general desire of the House. But the first call on the Bill, whatever we say, must be to restore the racecourse. I, for one, think that that is a worthy cause, and it is one that will have my support.
4.27 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN: My Lords, I apologise for not having heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, in introducing the Second Reading of this Bill. Perhaps I may be allowed to say certain things in view of statements which were made earlier; and also because I take my See title from a City which has just lost a racecourse. We shall see at the end of this month whether, in fact, it is possible to transfer the Lincolnshire Handicap to another course with any success. There are those who say that it will be a very much better race run under new conditions. Whether or not that would be so with the Grand National, I do not know, but we should not take too romantic a view about a racecourse, which, admittedly, has been in existence for some years, and think that a particular race can never be transferred without losing a part of our national heritage. That seems to me to be exaggerating the argument for this particular Bill.
316
I suggest that the real debate is not concerned with the morality of gambling. The noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, suggested, to my surprise, that the Church of England regarded this as a sin. I do not know on which of our formularies he bases this somewhat surprising statement. I would suggest that he himself expressed a view—which would be that not only of many members of the Church of England but of moral theologians—that matters such as gambling or drinking are matters for the Christian conscience, provided that it is guided by those admirable principles which the noble Lord himself expressed. It would be a mistake if in this debate we were to become involved with the morality or otherwise of gambling.
While it is proper that we should be reminded that the Grand National is a great race, and one that has played a great part in the social history of this country, I do not think that is the real issue here. I am bound to say that, having listened to the debates, I still cannot see any real justification for this particular proposal. Why, for example, is it not possible for this immensely important industry (as we have been told it is), which is responsible for so much of the transfer of wealth in this country, not to be able itself to put into good order a particular course which is required for the continuation of this particular race? In other words, the Betting Levy Board, surely, is a proper charge.
But ought we not to give serious consideration to the desirability of changing by legislation what, up to now, has been our custom of not having national sweepstakes? I cannot see any reason why, if it were thought fit, in the wisdom of your Lordships and Members of another place, to approve this Bill, we should not be inundated with many other infinitely better causes for sweepstakes. I cannot think that the grounds given are so grave that the only way of meeting them is to set up yet another form of gambling at a time when our affluent society has certainly considerable play in that field. And I should not particularly wish to see the existing opportunities extended.
4.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I have listened with interest to everything

317
that has been said in this debate, and perhaps I had better start in the same way as my noble friend Lord Jessel, by declaring that I have no interest in racing. Of course, I say that using the word "interest" in the purely Parliamentary sense. Indeed, I have never had a horse in training and the last time I rode in a race over fences was in 1939. I will not disclose how much overweight I was.
However, a great deal of this debate to-day has been in relation to the Grand National, and not so very much has been said about the general scope of this Bill. May I say at the beginning that it may be possible for the right reverend Prelate—who no doubt will be watching with interest what happens about the Lincoln—to transfer the Lincoln to Doncaster. But I do not myself believe that one can transfer the Grand National to any other course in the country without a very signal change in its character. We have heard a lot about noble Lords' first speculations. I cannot remember when mine was. We have not had many tips about the race on Saturday week. But I was hoping to be there myself, unless of course the Government, following the bad example set by another place, instead of sitting on Wednesday mornings decide to sit on Saturday afternoons.
It would, I think, be greatly regretted—and I speak for myself personally; this is not a Party matter but one on which, if it comes to a vote, I hope we shall have a free vote—if the Grand National ceased to exist; yet we are told by my noble friend that this year's Grand National will be the last unless something is done. But when one reads the whole of this Bill, one does not see the words "Grand National" in it at all. I make no complaint of that, because I think the case for this Bill can be put in a wider aspect—although I do not expect the right reverend Prelate entirely to agree with me—than the case for reconditioning or refurbishing Aintree.
If one looks at the Bill one sees that it extends to two racecourses; and, if I may say so, I think it is important to bear in mind (without doing any of those careful arithmetical sums of the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, who intervened at short notice to raise what was really no more or less than a purely Committee
318
point) that one sees from Clause 1(2) that the main objects of a sweepstake held under this Bill will be either charitable or benevolent. Under this Bill, as I read it, a total of 25 per cent. of the proceeds will go to research into illness or mental defectiveness. My noble friend has said that he would be perfectly ready to consider broadening or altering that provision, and presumably he would be prepared to alter the percentage if thought right.
I should like your Lordships to consider that percentage with what will accrue to others under this Bill, if it is carried in its present form. Fifty per cent. of the stake money will go in prizes—whether or not that is too big a percentage I would not know, but take the figure as 50 per cent.; 22½ per cent. will go to the promoters. In addition to paying all the expenses of running the sweepstake—I have no idea what they will amount to—they have to pay to this board, which is going to be set up under Clause 1(5), a sum, and a substantial sum, because the right to run the sweepstake at all will be out to auction. What in fact 22½ per cent. of the stake money will amount to one does not know, but presumably the promoters would have to pay, I would guess, something like 10 or 15 per cent. of what they are likely to get in stake money to have any right to run the sweepstake at all. Also, if I read the Bill correctly, it is only going to be out of this arbitrary figure of 10 to 15 per cent. that any provision is going to be made for Aintree, after deduction of the expenses of this nominated body.
So, my Lords, with the greatest respect to him, I did feel that the objections of the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, to whose speech I listened with interest, were rather misconceived, for this reason. He said, and said very firmly, that he did not oppose the Bill on principle, and that if it was for the support of hospitals he would support it. Bearing in mind that, as the Bill now stands, 25 per cent. will be for hospitals, 2½ per cent. for local authority recreation, and 22½ per cent. for the promoters, out of which they have to pay for the right to run the sweepstake—let us assume that that is 10 to 15 per cent.—it is only out of that 10 to 15 per cent. that anything will go to racing.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, my position is quite clear. I want the whole of the proceeds apart from the expenses to go to hospitals.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, the noble Lord made his position quite clear, and I was hoping to prevail upon him slightly to move his position. He and I have known each other for a very long time. I was delighted to be present to hear his maiden speech in this House, although, as he said, it was not the first time he had spoken here because he spoke here when making his maiden speech in another assembly in 1945. I did it two years earlier in this House. I am afraid I do not remember the noble Lord's maiden speech on that occasion, but I am sure it was good, as indeed his speech was to-day, although I disagree with the conclusion to which he came. The noble Lord once tried to lead me down a pit, but then he had second thoughts, thought better of it, and withdrew the invitation.
We have had a really interesting debate with no fewer than three maiden speeches. There was the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, who was quite clear in his support for this measure, and the noble Lord, Lord Crawshaw, who made a very powerful plea for this Bill. I am sure we are all very pleased to see him here, and I hope he will come and join in our deliberations again because we enjoy his presence.
I rise to give my support to this Bill, because I think it is a measure of general importance. I really do not see why we should not have a measure of this sort—I think it is a well drafted measure—which fulfils so many objects. The main object, as I see it, is to provide funds for charitable and benevolent purposes, and why should we not have a sweepstake for that? The Irish Sweepstake has flourished for many years. My noble friend Lord Moyne said that, if we passed this Bill, we should make it legal to take tickets in the Irish Sweepstake. If my memory serves me aright, the whole of our lottery laws started by laws being passed to prevent competition with the Government. I think that is so, and I certainly do not think that this question of purchasing Irish Sweepstake tickets ought to bear one way or another in relation to this Bill.
320
There are two Amendments which I hope my noble friend will consider if this Bill is given a Second Reading. In the first place, although its intent seems fairly clear, I think that Clause 1(3) might be drafted a little more specifically. Secondly, Clause 1(5) provides that,
"The Secretary of State shall nominate a body being a body incorporated by statute".
I think it would be desirable that this Bill in itself should provide for the creation of that body and we should not have to have another Bill to provide for its existence. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, that this is not a Party matter, but I cannot join with him in expressing any view upon whether the Grand National race should be at all changed. I myself, as a mere spectator, would much prefer to see it remain as it is.
My Lords, I do not propose to speak any longer upon the Bill except to say this. I hope that if this Bill secures a Second Reading my noble friend will consult with those at Liverpool to see whether there are any changes which they may wish to have made to it—and, perhaps in passing, consult the Lord Bishop of Liverpool, to see whether or not he views with equanimity the loss of a famous race from his diocese, which Lincoln, apparently, can suffer without any severe hardship. If this matter is pressed to a Division I will myself certainly support my noble friend. This is a non-Party matter, and I hope that if the Bill does get a Second Reading we can join together in making it an even better Bill than it is now.
My Lords, I think this Bill is skilfully drawn. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, seemed to think it was wrong that we should be discussing this subject at all when there are other, more important, subjects to discuss—such as, he said, exports; and I was surprised that he viewed with comparative equanimity the loss of exports in this field, bearing in mind the loss of exports due to Government action which has been suffered in so many other fields. But we are not debating that today. The noble Lord made it quite clear that he intervened solely to raise, as I have said, a purely Committee point, but I do not agree with him that this Bill is carelessly and irresponsibly

321
drawn. I think it is extremely cleverly devised to achieve the object of securing that the greater part of the proceeds of the sweepstake will go to benevolent and charitable objects, and that at the same time provision is made for the carrying on, at Aintree, of the Grand National as it used to be and as many of us hope it will be for many, many years to come.
4.42 p.m.
LORD STRANGE: My Lords, I was afraid mine was going to make it a treble, but now I should like to make an accumulator of maiden speeches. This will be my first speech in the House, and I think I am making a forecast, because the point I wish to make is really a Committee point, or it verges on that. Most Members of this House will at some time or other have ridden a motor bicycle and most of them will have ridden a horse. It happens that, at this time, the Tourist Trophy Race in the Isle of Man also contemplates have a sweepstake. The point I wish to make, which I think is really a Committee point, is this. The organisers have decided not to announce the draw until after the race is over, because although in both the Grand National and the Tourist Trophy Race the riders are very sporting riders indeed, as we all know, it is felt that they might be influenced by some sort of bribery.
I think this is a point which should be borne in mind, because it is a new idea in sweepstakes to tell the names of the draw after the race is over. I do not think it has been done before. It has this advantage: that when the people who have bought tickets are watching the race on television they think that every horse is theirs—" This is my horse, and it is going to win". It is only afterwards that they find out it is not.
4.44 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, like the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, assured us that, in the Parliamentary sense, they had no interest in the subject-matter of this Bill. But I think that, if this debate has made one thing clear, it is that all of us have a keen interest in racing, and I think that is pretty representative of the British people.
322
This has been a quite remarkable debate. We have had no fewer than six late entries as speakers (six chalk jockeys, in racing parlance), and we have had the remarkable number of four maiden speeches—four novice steeplechasers, as it were; divisions one, two, three and four, which I think is more even than they had on Monday at Cheltenham. All the maiden speeches have been welcome. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, gave us in point of time a sort of five furlong sprint—not delivered quite in that tempo, but nevertheless very welcome. He assured us of the great interest in the National in, among other places, Rhodesia. I can assure him that, in even darker places than that, there is a very keen interest—Her Majesty's prisons, for example, where they have bets in quite strange coinage but, nevertheless, bookmakers as well. We all welcomed very much indeed the first-class maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Crawshaw. I am sorry that he waited two years to make his maiden effort, because I am quite sure that all of us hope that it will certainly be less than two months before we hear from him again, and that we shall often have the favour of his contributions.
My noble friend Lord Blyton, twenty years in Parliament. scarcely qualifies for the apprentice allowance, so far as maiden speakers are concerned, but we certainly welcomed his version of the Blaydon Races, and we look forward to his contributions on other subjects. The noble Lord, Lord Strange, made, as he put it, a Committee point. And, although I do not propose to comment on his suggestion (which would have disadvantages that for the moment I will not canvas) at least we are glad that he has broken the ice, and that it was not on the other side of a very tall fence that he broke it.
My Lords, it seemed to me. in listening to some of the contributions. that, when noble Lords described what they called their descent into Averno, their whole attitude towards racing was decided by their initial experience. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel. for example. who backed "Grand Parade" at 33 to 1, was all in favour of this Bill. The noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, had a successful bet at odds that he could not remember, and was paid out only by the kindness of the bookmaker. I hope it was the bookmaker with whom

323
the noble Viscount had the bet, because otherwise it would have been unfair. The noble Lord, Lord Airedale, it seemed to me, was not quite so uncompromisingly supporting, and I rather thought that that was because his first winner was only 4 to 1, and therefore he was not quite so enthusiastic.
If I may deal first with one point which was referred to by the noble Viscount and was also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Moyne, I think, he said that in this country it was illegal to purchase a ticket in the Irish Sweep. I am able to say that, to be precise, neither the 1934 Act nor, indeed, the 1963 Act make it an offence to buy a ticket in the Irish Hospitals Sweepstake; but it is an offence to sell or distribute tickets, or to send out of the country money in respect of the sale of these tickets.
As I have said, this has been a very interesting debate, with a great deal of expertise, and in some ways I regret that I shall have to do my best, I hope not altogether without success, to demolish the arguments that have been put forward. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel, has put before us a highly coloured and alluring prospectus. He put his case, I thought, in a wholly admirable and restrained way, and sincerely believed in the points that he was putting forward. Those I can summarise, perhaps, in this way.
First, the prospectus promised that it would save Aintree for racing and save the National, which, I agree, is worth saving—and I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, who said that. Secondly, millions of people would get a little extra excitement at small cost, and a few people would win fortunes. Thirdly, medical research would receive large-scale financial help. Fourthly, at least £150,000 would be provided for recreational facilities in the racecourse area. Fifthly (though this was not mentioned in the debate), we should prevent another injustice to Ireland, and, in fact, everyone would be happy—especially, my Lords, the promoters.
So far as Aintree is concerned—and the debate has made it quite clear that, despite the words about the value of the money for medical research, this is the mainspring of the Bill—I give place to
324
none in wanting to see Aintree preserved as a racecourse and for the Grand National to continue to be run there. It engages the excited interest and admiration of virtually the whole nation and a good deal of interest also in other countries. The National, in my view, is the world's greatest contest for horse and rider. It would be regretted by almost everyone in this country if it were threatened. I agree with the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, and the noble and learned Viscount, that, whatever we called it, the National on a park course would be just another steeplechase. But I do not accept this Bill as the solution for Aintree. Aintree has been losing money for some years. Understandably, the owner wants to sell and has been prevented from selling only by the fortunate and public-spirited action of Lord Sefton.
But apart from the British people themselves, there are powerful public bodies interested in preserving the course. The Government have no direct knowledge of what they may intend, or whether any direct approach is likely to be made in the matter. There is, in our view, no reason to believe that if the threat to Aintree should become real, or imminent, means will not be found to preserve it. Indeed the present situation might well lead to improvement of the present facilities and fuller development of the course in the public interest so that it could become a paying proposition. To my mind that removes the mainspring and principal attraction of the Bill.
I will deal now with the "fortunes for a few". This is my second objection to the Bill, because this proposal is another addition to the major industry of gambling. I am not now arguing about the morality of gambling; I want to make the point (which has so far not been made in this debate) that it is surely fundamentally wrong to set the seal of State approval on a proposal for a private person to run this monopoly; to set the seal of State approval on this unhealthy octopus of gambling which is spreading its tenatacles among all classes and ages of people throughout the length and breadth of the land. There are football pools, bingo, the dogs and thousands and thousands of betting shops. Of course, it may be argued that

325
it is only another £10 million or another £20 million. You can say, as did the noble Lord, Lord Jesse], that the Daily Express has made its inquiries which show that nearly nine out of ten people are in favour—in favour of something for nothing. The Evening News headline was "It's a Winner!".
But this is not an ordinary sweepstake; it is something to which the Government are being asked to give State approval. Her Majesty's Government feel that at this we should draw the line. According to the estimates by the Churches Council on Gambling, the nation is spending something like £860 million a year, not including what may be spent in gaming clubs. That means that the total may approach £1,000 million a year, or 25s. a week for each family. The other day my noble friend Lord Robens pointed out that this is giving the country a wrong sense of priorities. Some 50,000 people are employed full-time on just taking bets and administering the betting machine. This is as many as are employed in the vital engineering tools industry. Bookmakers alone employ almost as many people as the total of those actually engaged full-time in sport and recreation. Are the Government to make this unhappy situation worse? It is impossible to get people by law to refrain from gambling; but it is possible, when the opportunity arises, to refuse to encourage gambling by Statute; and that is what the Government are asking Parliament to do now.
This Bill is a very different proposition from the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1963. That Act, while declaring all lotteries illegal, makes specified exceptions for private lotteries—for example, at dinners, dances, bazaars and similar entertainments. And it allows certain small public lotteries for charitable, sporting, cultural and other noncommercial purposes. All these lotteries are subject to conditions to ensure that they may be conducted only on a relatively small scale, with limited stakes and prizes, and that the proceeds, after permitted deductions for expenses, are devoted to purposes other than private gain. In those lotteries where tickets may be sold to the public, the conditions imposed by the Act limit the price to one shilling, the total value of tickets to £750, total prizes to 50 per cent. of the proceeds,
326
and the first prize to £100. No remuneration may be paid to the promoter, or to any person employed by the promoter, who is engaged in a betting business. The expenses must not exceed 10 per cent. of the whole proceeds. People give cheerfully to these small "swindles", as they are commonly called, in the knowledge, first that they are supporting a cause in which they believe and, second, because no one is making a profit out of it.
This Bill is a totally different proposition. When the Press first noted it, it said that its sponsors quite frankly expected it to gross £10 million; and in my view that is a conservative estimate. But even on that basis the promoters' "cut" would be no less than £2¼ million. It is true that out of this they would have to pay the tender price to the body nominated by Statute (it has been suggested it would be the Horserace Betting Levy Board), and they would have to pay promotional expenses. But at the end of the day its promoters—and it was suggested that Crockford's, the gaming club, might be among those who would tender—would be the big winners, to the tune, probably, of £1 million. This is "nice work, if you can get it".
If it were a wholly private business, no one could raise any objection, provided that it was legal. But this would not be a private venture; it would be a privately-owned monopoly created by the State. Whenever in the recent past such a proposition has been put forward and responsibly considered, it has been rejected. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel, spoke of the Royal Commission who twice considered this matter within the last thirty years. He said that they only mildly condemned it, and that their reasoning was out of date. I am not, of course, actually quoting the noble Lord; I am only paraphrasing his remarks.
LORD JESSEL: Quite correct.
LORD STONHAM: What did the Royal Commission say? First, the Royal Commission of 1932–33 considered the question of allowing large-scale lotteries, promoted either by or on behalf of the State or a public body, and recommended categorically against them. At the time when that Royal Commission was appointed the Irish Hospitals Trust Sweepstakes were very popular, although

327
the sale of tickets was illegal. The Commission was concerned to find out whether this implied a public demand for such a sweepstake in this country and whether a change in the law to permit such a sweepstake was desirable. It heard evidence from many witnesses on the subject, and in its Report dealt very fully with the questions of principle and the practical considerations involved.
Three different schemes were suggested to the Commission—first, State lotteries for the direct benefit of the Exchequer; secondly, a board set up by Parliament to promote lotteries for charitable objects, and, thirdly, a system of permits to promote lotteries, the profits being devoted to public or charitable objects. As regards lotteries in general, the Commission decided that the main objections were that they represented gambling in its easiest form, calling for no skill or knowledge, and thus appealed to many who would not, for instance, risk their money in backing a horse. There was also the dazzling lure, to the ordinary man or woman, of large prizes. On the whole, the Royal Commission decided that lotteries were objectionable in principle and socially undesirable, as likely to lead to a spread of gambling. Their conclusions covered the alternative proposals and condemned them all. The 1949–51 Royal Commission also considered this question. I will not go into all they said in detail, but they supported the objections of the previous Commission, so these views are not out of date.
As regards large-scale lotteries not conducted by the State—that is, the type we are now asked to approve—the Royal Commission had no hesitation in agreeing that the basic difficulty was that there would be no logical or equitable grounds for restricting the right to promote such lotteries to a strictly limited number of organisations—or tenderers, as under this Bill. It was also their view that, if the number was not strictly limited, it was probable that lotteries would be promoted for spurious objects, and also that many of those promoted for genuine objects would fail. The argument that it would be undesirable for the State itself to participate or be concerned in any way in the promotion of a lottery, as contemplated by this Bill, still holds good to-day. There can be no question about this, and noble
328
Lords who want to support the Bill must face up to this point. Do they agree that the State should approve and authorise a lottery? Do they wish to set the seal of approval on a lottery which is going to be administered by a private person?
As has been said, though little has been made of it during the debate—except by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lincoln, who I hope gets the other half of his double—horseracing alone among sports already benefits from a substantial statutory levy on betting transactions, and is therefore already in a position of advantage. Since the Horse-race Betting Levy Board was established it has distributed, or will be distributing, in accordance with schemes already agreed, a sum of almost £8½, million, a considerable proportion of which consists of direct grants for the improvement of racecourses or of the facilities and services which are a necessary adjunct at racecourses. And, of course, assistance for the improvement or preservation of Aintree would be something that the Levy Board would be entitled to consider. This is important to all who want to preserve Aintree.
It was clearly far from the minds of both Royal Commissions that there could ever be justification for a proposal which would provide a large margin of profit for a commercial promoter enjoying a monopoly right to promote a public lottery, and surely there can never be justification for such an arrangement under Government sponsorship. I firmly believe that Aintree can be saved by other and more respectable means. Funds for medical research can be, are, and should be, provided by the taxpayer and by charitably disposed persons. Stripped of these lures, it means that we are being asked in this Bill to set up machinery empowering the Government to grant, to a private person or persons, what amounts to a licence to print money. I trust that we shall have no hesitation in refusing, and if it should come to a Division I hope that your Lordships will have no hesitation in refusing to give this Bill a Second Reading.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, before the noble Lord finishes, I understood him to say that the Betting Levy Board have power to give money to all racecourses. I thought that they could

329
give money only to racecourses with security of tenure and that that was the difficulty over Aintree, where in fact no one had security of tenure.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, the noble Duke will doubtless understand that the Levy Board is also aware of these things. I prefer not to make any comment on what he has just said.
5.6 p.m.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I thank all those who have taken part in this extremely interesting and, at times, amusing debate. I am really flattered because we have had four maiden speakers. I will not weary the House by trying to make a winding-up speech, but there are one or two speeches I would mention. There is, especially, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Crawshaw, who spoke, I thought, with great sincerity and most effectively. There was also the extremely sensible and measured speech from the noble Lord, Lord Citrine. And I am very grateful to the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, for explaining the Bill and for really getting to the "guts" of the Bill, which, as a trained lawyer, he did far better than I could, and also for dealing with the 22½ per cent., which is going to be at the mercy of the voracious promoter, of whom the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, is so frightened. Only this 22½ per cent. will not fall into their pockets. There will be intense competition. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, mentioned Crock-ford's as being interested. I know they are. And I am sure that other people such as Littlewoods and Mr. William Hill will be interested and that the competition will be extremely hot.
I would also thank the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, for his extremely amusing and genial winding-up speech. He has shown an extraordinarily intimate knowledge of racing phraseology. I did not quite follow his explanation of the legal situation in regard to the purchase of Irish Sweepstake tickets in this country. I think he made it a little obscure. Apparently it is not an offence to buy tickets, but it is to sell them and send the money for the.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I am sorry that I did not make the position perfectly clear. It is not an offence to purchase Irish Hospitals Sweepstake tickets. It is an offence to distribute them as an agent and to send abroad for that purpose.
LORD JESSEL: Is it an offence to remit the money?
LORD STONHAM: That means acting as an agent.
LORD JESSEL: In any event, in spite of the obscurity, I understand that a great deal of money from this country does find its way to Dublin. The crux of the objections of Her Majesty's Government to this Bill, so far as I can see, is that small smell of private profit. Are the Government against football pools on principle? Surely there is there a large private profit and I should have thought that it was very much on all fours with what is envisaged in this Bill.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, may I make the Government's position clear? With regard to football pools, the Government have not created a private monopoly. Apparently, anyone can set up a football pool. The proposal here is that the Government should create a private monoply. That is the objection.
LORD JESSEL: If the noble Lord's argument is right, then I think the Government should abolish football pools. I suggest that if some private promoter was allowed to handle this sweepstake it would be done much more efficiently; more tickets would be sold at less cost; there would be more money for worthwhile causes and for racing. If I am asked whether I approve that the State should authorise a lottery and give some private organisation authority to administer it and make a small profit, I say, unreservedly, Yes. My Lords, I have nothing more to say.
5.14 p.m.
On Question, Whether the Bill shall be now read 2a?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 62; Not-Contents, 46.

CONTENTS

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Arran, E.

Barrington, V.

Airedale, L.

Atholl, D.

Boston, L.

Amulree, L.

Balerno, L.

Braye, L.

Brocket, L.

Glendevon,

Massereene and Ferrard, V. [Teller]

Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs.

Goschen, V.

Citrine, L.

Gosford, E.

Mottistone, L.

Colwyn, L.

Greenway, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Conesford, L.

Grenfell, L.

Newall, L.

Cowley, E.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Newton, L.

Crawshaw, L.

Hastings, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Daventry, V.

Hereford, V.

St. Helens, L.

Denham, L.

Horsbrugh, Bs.

St.Just, L.

Devonshire, D.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Selkirk,E.

Dilhorne, V.

Hurd, L.

Spens, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Ilford, L.

Strange, L.

Dudley, L.

Inglewood, L.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Elliot of Harwood, Bs.

Jessel, L. [Teller.]

Terrington, L.

Falkland, V.

Long, V.

Thurlow, L.

Falmouth, V.

MacAndrew, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Ferrers, E.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Wolverton, L.

Fleck, L.

Margadale, L.

Woolton, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Peddie, L.

Alport, L.

Hawke, L.

Robertson of Oakridge, L.

Archibald, L.

Hobson, L.

St. Davids. V.

Arwyn, L.

Leatherland. L. [Teller.]

Segal, L. [Teller]

Attlee, E.

Lincoln, L. Bp.

Shepherd, L.

Blyton, L.

Lindgren, L.

Silkin, L.

Bourne, L.

Listowel, E.

Somers, L.

Bowles, L.

Longford, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

Sorensen, L.

Brown, L.

Merthyr, L.

Stonham, L.

Burden, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Summerskill, Bs.

Champion, L.

Milverton, L.

Taylor, L.

Chorley, L.

Mitchison, L.

Tenby,V.

Chuter-Ede, L.

Molson, L.

Wade, L.

Colgrain, L.

Morrison, L.

Williamson, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Norwich, L. Bp.

Willis, L.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MINISTERIAL SALARIES AND MEMBERS' PENSIONS BILL
5.23 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Champion.)
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
Pensions of Members
(3) The annual amount of the pension payable under this section shall be a sum calculated by referece to the number of complete years of reckonable service of the Member in question, as follows:—
332

(a) for each year up to fifteen, £60;

(b) for each such year exceeding fifteen but not exceeding forty-five, £24.

(4) A pension under this section shall continue for the life of the person to whom it is payable but shall not be payable in respect of any period during which he is again a Member of the House of Commons or is a candidate for election thereto; and for the purposes of this subsection a person who ceases to be a Member in consequence of the dissolution of Parliament shall be treated as a candidate for election unless and until he gives notice in writing to the Trustees that he is not seeking re-election.
(5) In this Part of this Act the expression "reckonable service" means, subject to the provisions of sections 11 and 13 of this Act relating to the refund of contributions and the transfer of pension rights,—

(a) service as a Member of the House of Commons after 16th October 1964, being service in respect of which contributions are paid under section 5 of this Act;

(b) service as a Member of that House before that date by a person who is a Member of that House at any time after that date;

but if in any case the service described in paragraph (b) above exceeds ten years, the excess shall be disregarded.
On Question, Whether Clause 7 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD INGLEWOOD: I gave the noble Lord, Lord Champion, notice that I wanted to seek some information about this clause, particularly subsection (5)(b). Here we are concerned with the credits in a pension scheme for past services, over and above the future service financed by Members' contributions. I am sure the noble Lord will agree that it is right that we in Parliament should take an interest in credits or bonuses financed from public funds. I hope I may be excused if I am thought to be over purist—perhaps it is because I served as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance and, therefore, have been concerned with these things—but I say that with the start of any scheme of this kind it is proper and reasonable that there should be some credit for past service, otherwise it is difficult, in the slang, to get the scheme off the ground.
I may be mistaken, but I should think that Clause 7 is open to the criticism of being too lavish on two grounds. First, there is the cost to the taxpayer. The Lawrence Report, Paragraph 79, estimated that the present capital value of this subsection is £2½ million, which is a great deal of money when we consider that the number of persons concerned is not so very large. It is tempting to suggest that more of us might share in this, but I am not doing that at all—rather the reverse. I am rather suggesting that ten years' credit for past services is too much. The noble Lord will correct me, I know, if I am wrong, but I understand that it could even work in this way. A Member with substantial past service has to serve only a very few days in this present Parliament, pay £150, and thus, under the terms of the scheme, compelling the Exchequer to pay another £150, after which, if he is 65 and his wife is the same age, he will be entitled to a pension the capital value of which in the market, I am advised, is about £6,200—which is not a bad golden handshake at all. Even the Sweepstakes on Horseraces (Authorisation) Bill, which we have just been considering, could hardly offer better prizes.
I suggest that four years' allowance for past services is really more appropriate. At one time I was tempted to table an Amendment, but I feel it better that I
334
should raise the point in discussion. That allowance, I think, would be more satisfactory all round, and not least to the taxpayer. It would not throw the scheme out of balance. It would provide that as from the beginning of the scheme a Member would have to serve in two Parliaments before he became entitled to a pension, and I do not think that is unreasonable. As I say, it would save the taxpayer a substantial sum.
I shall be interested to hear from the noble Lord the Government's reasoning behind this paragraph in the Bill. I hope he will not fall back on the answer that it is in the Lawrence Report and, therefore, has the character of Holy Writ—because I do not think we have any right to treat the Lawrence Report, no matter what respect we give to it, as Holy Writ. Secondly, I hope he will not say that it is hard to see where to draw the line in a matter like this (because we can all see that) and that in the end they seem to have chosen a line which is fair to everyone and have found the right balance, because that is a safe line of advice to Ministers frequently offered to them by their advisers. I do not think that is really sufficient in this instance. Therefore, as I have given the noble Lord a whole week's notice, I am looking forward to a full answer, because I do not want afterwards to consider putting down an Amendment at a later stage to give him another chance.
LORD CHAMPION: I am obliged to the noble Lord for the way in which he has posed his question, and for having advised me of the fact that he was going to ask it. I am not quite so happy about the way in which he has told me of his arguments and then dares me to use the argument that this is in the Lawrence Report. After all, when I embarked upon this subject I set out on a horse called Lawrence, and now in mid-stream the noble Lord shouts from the bank, "Change horses". I just cannot see a horse anywhere about that is half as good as Lawrence in this connection, because Lawrence, after all, was a Committee set up in order to consider the whole matter of Members' salaries and pensions and, of course, Ministerial salaries as well. So I think to a large extent I must stick to the horse that I happen to be on, namely, Lawrence.

335
The Lawrence Committee recommended precisely the figure which is contained in the Bill so far as past service is concerned.
The Government have, of course, considered this matter. It is right that they should do so, and they have come to the point of view that in this matter Lawrence was intrinsically sound. Ten years' credit is just about the right figure for the purpose of getting this scheme off the ground. As the noble Lord will be aware from his past experience, it is the general practice of employers, both public and private, to allow a measure of back service credit when a scheme is established for the first time. This point was put, as I understand it, to the Government Actuary on occupational pension schemes, the report of which was published in 1958. That report said:
"Some degree of back service credit is granted in most pension schemes in public service or nationalised industries and for about one-half of the membership in private schemes. Where granted, a back service credit has been in respect of one-half of past service for most eligible members of insured schemes, but equal to the whole of past service for the great majority of eligible members of other schemes. An upper limit to the length of service allowed to count in full is fairly common, especially in the public service and nationalised industries."
The question is, just how much.
To turn perhaps from generalities to particular cases, in 1947 and 1948 large parts of the subordinate Civil Service staff —that is, industrial grades, messengerial and similar grades—who had previously been unestablished and unpensionable on principle, were established and made pensionable. The effect of the Superannuation Act 1946. which had just then been passed, was to allow these people, as soon as they were established, to count their previous unpensionable service back to 1919 as to the one-half of its actual length, which, as the noble Lord can see, would in many cases be very much more than the ten years which has been accepted for this Bill. Thus in some cases up to fourteen reckonable years of back service credit were granted. Similar provisions, partly contributory, were made for certain categories of staff when the pension schemes of the national coal and gas undertakings were set up. Similarly in local government, certain
336
non-contributory service was subsequently made reckonable at the sole expense of the employer when the groups of staff concerned became subject to the Local Government Superannuation Scheme for the first time.
We have adopted what seems to be a reasonable precedent that a good employer (although, of course, one is not an employer in quite the same sense here) has adopted in the past in this connection, and I think it is reasonable so to do, partly because it is based on Lawrence, partly because it is based on precedent. I rather think this is just about the right period of service, having regard to the type of scheme and the people for whom this pension is designed, and I rather hope that the noble Lord will feel that in my speech 1 have answered most of his points and that he will not feel it necessary at Report stage to put down an Amendment.
LORD INGLEWOOD: Before the noble Lord sits down, can he just refer to my calculations about achieving entitlement as a result of a few days' service?—because it is important.
LORD CHAMPION: Clearly the difficulty in all this is that when a date is set somebody who comes just on the right side of the date is going to get a tremendous advantage. Inevitably when a date, or, in some cases, a boundary line, is set. somebody is going to be just outside and somebody just inside. I remember that when I was chairman of an education committee, and there was a two-mile limit in respect of free travel for children to school, somebody on one side of the street could have free travel and somebody on the other side of the street could not.
As to the noble Lord's calculations, I must admit that I have not gone into the matter quite so deeply as all that, and therefore I am not in a position to reply on the actual sum. But it is a fact that some Members of the other place who remained in it for a very short time after the last Election would benefit under this Bill and would, of course, get benefits for which they have never in fact paid. But that is "in the nature of the beast."
LORD NEWTON: Would the noble Lord be good enough to clarify the exact meaning of subsection (4) of Clause 7? I

337
informed him that I was going to ask him these questions. Subsection (4) of Clause 7 says:
"A pension under this section shall continue for the life of the person to whom it is payable but shall not be payable in respect of any period during which he is again a member of the House of Commons or is a candidate for election thereto;"
It would appear to me that, if this clause is to have any meaning, the words "in respect of any period" must mean "during any period". If that is so—anti one hesitates, as a layman, to make any observations on drafting—perhaps the noble Lord would consider that an Amendment ought to be made; because it seems to me that, as at present drafted, the clause may suggest that further service as a Member, with a gap in between, will not be reckonable for the purpose of pensions, I am quite sure that that is not the intention of the clause.
May I also ask the noble Lord whether the words "candidate for election thereto" do mean a candidate, and not a prospective candidate? What I am thinking of is this. Supposing that a Member of another place is defeated at a General Election, and immediately after is reaclopted as prospective candidate for his division, it would be bad luck if in the lifetime of this Parliament he would not be able to get his pension. Again, I am certain that is not the intention.
LORD CHAMPION: I am also grateful to the noble Lord for having given me notice of these questions. This is a very courteous House and I like it. Certainly it is helpful to be advised of the possibility of these points being raised. The noble Lord has put quite fairly a point which raises some doubt in his mind. As I understand it, Clause 7 refers to the payment of pension, and not to the reckonable service and so on. As I understand it, the words "in respect of" mean precisely what he thinks they mean; namely, "during". But whether "during" would be better than "in respect of" is something upon which I am not capable of pronouncing. However, I will put this point to the Parliamentary draftsman, and if he feels that the present wording is not perfectly clear I will, of course, produce an Amendment on Report. But the intention here is, I think, perfectly clear in this connection.
338
As to the period for which a person may be "a candidate for election thereto", the candidate for election, as I understand it, is not a prospective candidate in the words that we normally use up to nomination day. From that moment onwards, as I understand it, a person becomes, legally speaking, a candidate; and from that moment onwards no candidate would be able to receive a House of Commons pension. I think this is perfectly clear. Certainly this is the intention of the Bill as it stands, and I think that it fairly clearly says so.
In the case of the period during which Parliament is dissolved and awaiting the next Election, this period between Dissolution and nomination day, the person will be automatically entitled to his pension on Dissolution, provided that he is not going to stand again. If he is going to stand again he will not be so entitled to a pension. If he is not going to stand again, he will be expected to notify the trustees that he is not seeking re-election and therefore will qualify. Subject to the promise I have made to the noble Lord, to look at this matter again between now and Report stage, I hope that I have reasonably satisfied the points he put to me.
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clauses 8 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Transfer to and from other pension schemes]:
5.41 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION LORD CHAMPION moved, in subsection (4), after "person" to insert:
"any service of his as a Member of the House of Commons before the date on which the payment is made shall cease to be reckon-able service and".
The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the other one run together. The need for the Amendments arises from an error in drafting. The purpose of the Amendment I am now moving is to ensure that when a Member leaves the Commons, and his pension rights are transferred to another scheme, not only his contributory service but also any service before October 16, 1964, ceases to be reckonable service for pension under the Members' scheme. I have a lot of technical explanation here that I could give in respect of this Amendment.

339
but I think it would be better if I confined my remarks to the effect of the Amendments.
The effect of the clause as it now stands would be to allow a man with a maximum of ten years' back service who has left the House with a transfer value which fully represents the value of his accrued rights for those ten years to receive in addition the pension for those ten years when he reaches age 65. In effect, under the clause as it is now drafted he could receive double pension. This is plainly wrong. The Amendment therefore cuts out double entitlement by providing that, when a transfer value is paid, any service before the date on which the payment is made—that is, both contributory and non-contributory service—shall cease to be reckonable. The second part of the Amendment removes the earlier provision, which applied to contributory service only and now becomes needless. With that explanation, although this is slightly more than a drafting Amendment, I hope the Committee will be prepared to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 2, after ("person") insert the said words.—(Lord Champion.)
LORD NEWTON: I should like to thank the noble Lord for his explanation.
LORD CHAMPION: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 4, leave out from ("treated") to ("for") in line 5.—(Lord Champion.)
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with Amendments.

DURHAM MARKETS COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
  LIVERPOOL EXCHANGE BILL [H.L.]
  Committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
BRIGHTON SKYDECK BILL [H.L.]
  GULF OIL REFINING BILL [H.L.]
  Committed to Select Committees.
  PORT OF LONDON BILL [H.L.]
  Reported, with Amendments.
  UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES OF ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY: BUILDING GRANTS
  UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES OF ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY: BUILDING GRANTS