Sitting of 3 February 1965

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will now proceed to read the Titles of the Private Bills set down for this day.
Mr. Snow: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, may I draw attention, with great respect, to the first page of the Order Paper, page 2087, which lists the Private Business After Prayers for today? You will note, Sir, from this list that of the nine Private Bills seven Second Readings are opposed by the hon. Members for Eastbourne (Sir C. Taylor) and Gillingham (Mr. Burden). The purpose of my raising this point of order is certainly not to challenge their right so to do. Incidentally, though I may be mistaken, I think they are not present today.
You will observe, Sir, that all these Private Bills for which Second Readings are sought are from very responsible local authorities. The object, presumably, of opposing their Second Readings is that the hon. Members who have put their names down desire more time to consider these Bills to see whether they object to them. There is nothing wrong with that, as far as I can see, but—[Interruption.]—I am speaking to a point of order. Am I out of order, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: Not yet, but I think the House would welcome it if the hon. Gentleman would indicate what his point of order is.
Mr. Snow: Sir, if the intention of the hon. Members concerned is that they want more time to consider these Private Bills, may I point out that these Bills were first published and copies were available in the Private Bill Office on 27th November, which means that these
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hon. Members have now had two months in which to consider them. As I understand it, no Petitions have been lodged. I respectfully submit that we have a duty here to see that the business on behalf of these very substantial corporations is conducted both efficiently and expeditiously.
Mr. Speaker: I am concerned with the rights of hon. Members. These hon. Members are exercising their rights. No point of order arises.

BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL(By Order)
BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL (By Order)
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL (By Order)
COVENT GARDEN MARKET BILL (By Order)
FLINTSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (HIGHER FERRY SALTNEY FOOTBRIDGE) BILL (By Order)
GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
MERSEY TUNNEL (LIVERPOOL/WALLASEY) ETC. BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
Mr. Snow: On a point of order. Naturally I respectfully submit to what you said earlier, Mr. Speaker; but having listened to the objections which have now been raised, may I ask whether the House is right to consider that the hon. Members who objected have read these Bills?
Mr. Speaker: I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman thinks that that raises a point of order.

Return ordered,
relating to Overseas Trade of the United Kingdom for each month during the year 1965.—[Mr. Redhead.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  SOCIAL SECURITY (REVIEW)
  Lord Balnielasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what are the terms of reference of the review being undertaken by Her Majesty's Government of the structure of social security in the country; and when he will announce the membership of the review body.
  Mr. Geoffrey Lloydasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he expects to give details of his proposed review of social security.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Douglas Houghton): As I told the hon. and gallant Member for Wells (Lieut.-Commander Maydon) in answer to a Question on 1st February, the review is being carried out by the responsible Ministers in consultation with me. There will be no formal terms of reference.
  Lord Balniel: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we on these benches regard this review as being totally and utterly inadequate? We feel that what is needed is a wide-ranging, impartial review to which outside bodies can give evidence and which will publish its findings, and not a hole-in-the-corner review undertaken by prejudiced Ministers.
  Mr. Houghton: The review that we are undertaking is much more adequate than the one that was undertaken by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Mr. Lloyd: Since the main principles upon which the scheme at present operates were laid down following a substantial review by Lord Beveridge, is not something of similar prestige and importance needed today if we are not to depart substantially from the principles, having regard to their tremendous importance to so many people and so many organisations?
  Mr. Houghton: This review is well within the province and competence of Her Majesty's Government. When right hon. and hon. Members opposite introduced a substantial change in the con-
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  truction of the National Insurance Scheme in 1959, there was not, so far as I am aware, any formal review. They issued a White Paper, and then the pro-proposals were brought before the House, and I see no reason why we should not repeat that procedure.
  Sir C. Osborne: When the Minister has this review conducted, will he bear in mind the very serious warning of the Governor of the Bank of England on Monday, when he said that the only salvation for the country economically was a severe cut in Government and local government expenditure? Will he also take that point of view into account?
  Mr. Houghton: We shall bear in mind all the warnings that we are given.
  Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what additional use he intends to make of computers to expedite the review of the problems of social security.
  Mr. Houghton: Where computers can help in processing material required for the review they will be used. As my hon. Friend knows, further uses for computers in the administration of social security are already being investigated.
  Mr. Hamilton: Could my right hon. Friend say why the Ministry saw fit and proper to introduce a computer to expedite the working of the swindle called the graduated scheme, and yet it does not see fit to introduce computers for the national scheme that was formulated under the terms of the Beveridge proposals? Can my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that in future pensions increases and other social service benefits increases will be expedited by means of the use of computers?
  Mr. Houghton: The first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question should surely be directed to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. They were in charge of affairs at that time.
  As to the latter part of the supplementary question, we shall certainly employ all the mechanical and electronic means at our disposal to expedite all processes in connection with National Insurance.
  Mr. Peter Emery: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the

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  make—whether British or American—of the computers that he will be using? Does he realise that the British computer industry can now produce computers that will do anything that the American computers do? Will he ensure that in future the Government, in their purchasing of computers, will give the lead to the rest of industry in using only British computers?
  Mr. Houghton: I was asked whether computers were going to be used. I was not asked to place the order here and now.
  Mr. Speaker: Lord Balniel, Question No. 3.
  Mr. Emery: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Speaker: No. I have called the next Question.

  SOCIAL WORKERS
  Lord Balnielasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lanchester whether he will take steps to improve co-ordination in the recruiting, training and allocation of workers for the whole of the social work field in the public services.
  Mr. Houghton: If the noble Lord has any particular steps in mind, I will certainly see that they are considered.
  Lord Balniel: The right hon. Gentleman is charged with the responsibility of co-ordinating the social services. Would he not agree that a really major reform could be achieved if he could secure a greater degree of co-ordination in the recruiting, training and allocation of child-care officers, probation service officers and health and welfare service officers? Will he give this a very high priority in his general review of the co-ordination of the social services?
  Mr. Houghton: The noble Lord has already put Questions to the Minister of Health about his responsibilities in the matter. I can assure him that we shall consider all matters relating to the recruitment and training of staff in this work.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Pigs
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on the steps he proposes to take to ensure that bacon factories have the necessary pigs to maintain the quota of the Bacon Agreement.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Fred Peart): The supply of pigs is a matter for the Annual Review and I am unable to make any statement bearing on this at the present time.
    Mr. Mills: Will the Minister now state the real reason why we failed to take up our quota? Will he not agree with me that this is entirely due to the unrealistic price that farmers are getting for their bacon pigs? Will he, in the coming Annual Review, look into the whole matter of pigs, bacon and pork production?
    Mr. Peart: As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a matter for the Annual Review and I shall be having discussions.
    Mr. Soames: Apart from the Annual Review, the right hon. Gentleman recently had some talks with other parties to the Bacon Agreement. I should like to know whether, in those talks, he pressed for an increase in the British quota within the Bacon Agreement and, if so, for what sort of increase did he press?
    Mr. Peart: This is quite separate from the main Question. Naturally, I have always tried to safeguard the interests of our home producers. Indeed, I shall be having further talks with them.
    Mr. Soames: I am sorry, but, with great respect, this is very much to do with the Question—the necessity to maintain the quota of the Bacon Agreement. The right hon. Gentleman has had these talks, about which we have heard very little, with other parties to the Agreement. Did he press for an increased quota for the coming year?
    Mr. Peart: I made an announcement about this, and I am certain that the arrangement that has been made is satisfactory. I am anxious that we shall be able to have a fulfilment of the spirit of the Agreement. I can say no more than that.

    Dairy Farmers
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many dairy farmers in the West Country went out of business in 1964.
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many farmers have closed their dairies during the last year; and what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the milk supply and provide an adequate return for dairy farmers.
    Mr. Peart: The number of registered milk producers in England and Wales declined by 5,118 in 1964. Of this total 998 were in Devon, Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset.
    The level of milk production and the return to milk producers will be taken into account at the forthcoming Annual Review but I cannot anticipate the outcome.
    Mr. Mills: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that during the past 10 years dairy farmers' incomes have dropped by at least 20 per cent. and, indeed, at the moment it is true to say that 150 dairy farmers are going out of business each week? Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that nothing less than 4d. a gallon will be necessary to rectify this position? Before he forestalls me by saying that I should direct my remarks to my own party, may I say that my criticism is directed just as much to my party as to the present Government.
    Mr. Peart: I hope the hon. Gentleman said that during the election.
    Mr. Mills: I did.
    Mr. Peart: I cannot accept responsibility for the previous Administration. Naturally, during the Annual Review all these matters which have been mentioned will be taken into consideration.
    Mr. Digby: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has announced some
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    figures which have shown a fairly sharp decrease? Is he further aware that when farmers go out of milk production and close their dairies they are usually very reluctant to undertake milk production again? That is certainly true in Dorset. Will he face up to the problem and bear in mind that the decline is proceeding rather quickly?
    Mr. Peart: I am aware of the problem. As I have said, I shall be going to the review talks and this will be one of the matters which we shall consider.
    Mr. Hayman: Will my right hon. Friend do his best to remedy the defects of the Tory Administration during the past 13 years as soon as he can?
    Mr. Peart: I shall certainly do my best to do that.
    Mr. Soames: As the right hon. Gentleman has given us the figures for dairy farmers who went out of business, would he also give us his figure for the number of cows in the national dairy herd during the same period?
    Mr. Peart: I have not got those figures with me, but I will certainly get them and supply them to the right hon. Gentleman.
    Sir Richard Glyn: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has perceived the extremely high proportion of dairy farmers who go out of business in the for south-western counties? Will he bear in mind that this unfortunate situation is creating a tremendous pressure on the farmers in these special areas, where milk is the main product and where farms are, in the main, unsuitable for any other form of production?
    Mr. Peart: I am well aware of the problems of the South-West. This is not peculiar only to the South-West, but I recognise there is a real problem here.

    Farms (Productivity)
    Mr. Danceasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what incentives he will offer to farmers to enable them to increase production, thereby reducing the amount of foreign exchange currently used for food imports.
    Mr. J. E. B. Hillasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in what commodities and in what amount he

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    estimates there is scope for replacing imports by increased home production.
    Mr. Peart: Agriculture's contribution to import saving will be considered at the forthcoming Annual Review. I am afraid I cannot anticipate the Review decisions.
    Mr. Dance: Whilst we all recognise that this is a trading country, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would agree that agriculture should be encouraged to increase its production by 10 per cent. to 20 per cent.? Is he not further aware that there are countries, particularly in Europe, which send to us in agricultural exports more than they take from us in other imports?
    Mr. Peart: I accept broadly what the hon. Member has said. I recognise that agriculture makes and has made a substantial net contribution to the balance of payments and that it should continue to do so.
    Mr. Dance: And increase.

    Farmers (Medium-Term Credit)
    Mr. George Y. Mackieasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he will create a special agricultural credit organisation to provide farmers with medium-term credit at reasonable rates of interest.
    Mr. Peart: This is an important but complex subject which I am studying carefully.
    Mr. Mackie: May I express the hope that the Minister will implement this part of his pre-election promises? In view of his answer to the last Question when he said that he hoped that agriculture would play a big part in the balance of payments, will he bear in mind that the provision of capital for improvements and equipment in farming is extremely important? Will the right hon. Gentleman go ahead with this election promise and set up a special agricultural credit organisation?
    Mr. Peart: I hope that the hon. Member will not be too worried. We have a record of keeping our promises. The previous Administration did not keep the promises given to the electorate in their manifesto.
    Mr. Soames: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has made an interesting
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    comment in that he is now realising that the pledge which he made at the election is a complex matter which needs a great deal of study. Is he implying that he did not realise this before the election, and had not studied the matter then?
    Mr. Peart: I declared that we would be anxious to provide medium-term credit for farmers. That still stands. How we shall do it is a matter for discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] A three months' period is not unreasonable to have careful discussions and investigations before I make an announcement.
    Mr. W. Baxter: May I draw attention to the fact that under the new Cereals Marketing Bill, now in Committee, certain credit facilities are being made available to the farming community? Is not this, within three months after the election, a very substantial step in the right direction towards the implementation of the promises which we intend to keep?
    Mr. Peart: I am grateful for the support of a practical farmer.
    Mr. Baker: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the banks and the agricultural merchants give a great deal of assistance to the farmers? Would he not endorse that policy?
    Mr. Peart: I accept that banks and merchants give a great deal of assistance, but there is still a problem of medium-term credit and I think that it is right that I should be considering it carefully.
    Mr. Soames: In view of the right hon. Gentleman's reply to his hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. W. Baxter), should I understand that he is regarding the introduction in the Cereals Marketing Bill of credit facilities for cereal growers, which was agreed upon, as he will be aware, by the previous Government with all the parties to the agreement, as an implementation of his pledge to provide medium-term credit?
    Mr. Peart: I believe that the Measure, which is my Bill and for which I am responsible, will be a good one and will help.

    Verdon Smith Report
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has now decided to

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    accept all or some of the recommendations of the Verdon Smith Report.
    Mr. Peart: I have nothing yet to add to my reply of 2nd December to the hon. Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill).
    Mr. Walker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when he asked my right hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) a similar Question on 13th July and received a similar Answer he accused my right hon. Friend of being guilty of procrastination and flippancy? Does he now consider that he himself is also guilty of procrastination and flippancy?
    Mr. Peart: The right hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) had a much longer period in which to make a decision than I have had. I will make a decision. Indeed, I have already in my mind made a decision. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I have come to certain conclusions, but before I actually announce a major decision I will consult all the interests concerned.
    Mr. Prior: Is not this another case of the right hon. Gentleman having made a lot of wild, inaccurate and entirely irrelevant statements in the course of the election and now having to eat his words? Will he not come to the conclusion that this is a very complex subject and that he had better give it more thought in case he gives the wrong answer?
    Mr. Peart: I am surprised at the hon. Member being so naive. As he knows full well, because he was with me at the time on a television programme, I declared during the last election that I believed in the orderly marketing of meat. I said then that this was a complex matter and that we would consult the interests concerned. We have done that and when I finally come before the House with an announcement we shall have consulted them.
    Mr. Soames: The right hon. Gentleman has made an important statement. He has said that he has reached conclusions in his own mind on the Verdon Smith Report and, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), that he has carried out his consultations. Are we to understand that he has carried out consultations and reached decisions?
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    If so, when will he bring us into his confidence and tell us what the decisions are?
    Mr. Peart: I have said that I have in my mind come to conclusions, which are necessary before I finally announce a scheme. Inevitably, I must consult the interests concerned. I should have thought that this was right. Why should hon. Members be afraid of that?
    Mr. Prior: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Horticulture (Costs)
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will estimate the total cost to the horticultural industry of the imposition of the 15 per cent. surcharge, the increase in Bank Rate, and the increase in tax on petrol.
    Mr. Peart: It is not possible to estimate the cost to horticulture of the temporary import charge, because its effect cannot be isolated from those of other factors affecting growers' costs. The cost to horticulture of the increase in the Bank Rate and in the tax on petrol may amount to about £¾ million in a full year.
    Mr. Gilmour: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Government have added about 7½ per cent. to the cost of production of many growers? What steps will the right hon. Gentleman take to protect this highly vulnerable industry from the consequences of Government blunders?
    Mr. Dodds: Which Government?
    Mr. Peart: The Government took a decision on financial policy which in the end, I recognise, has affected the horticultural industry, but they took that decision because of the mess left to them by the previous Administration.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one prominent authority on agriculture has announced that importers had absorbed a very considerable part of the 15 per cent. surcharge and that agents here had absorbed part and that very little was being passed on?
    Mr. Soames: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Horticulture Act, 1964, passed by the previous Government, was of great benefit to the industry and that in the short time he and his colleagues have been in power they have gone a long way, through this imposition of extra charges, to undo all the good done in that Act?
    Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense and he knows it. We will implement the Horticulture Act to the full. I supported it in Committee and I am anxious in Administration that growers who need it will have all the assistance. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Government's other measures, which he condemns, are temporary and the reason for them was the failure of the previous Administration.

    Protection of Animals (Anæsthetics) Act, 1964
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is satisfied with the working of the Protection of Animals (Anæsthetics) Act, 1964, on hill farms; and if he will make a statement.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie): The Act has been in operation for less than six months, and it is too early to draw conclusions about its working.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many hill farmers believe that the new paragraph 6A, dealing with castration by the rubber ring method, will be difficult to enforce and will be widely disregarded on hill farms?
    Mr. Mackie: I appreciate the difficulty on hill farms in gathering lambs at a week old, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that the British Veterinary Association, in consultations on this matter before the introduction of the Bill, felt that, in order to save suffering to lambs, a week was the best time.
    Mr. Noble: But will the Minister bear in mind also that the British Veterinary Association representatives in Scotland are at the moment, I believe, discussing this matter with the hill farming interests? Will he discuss the problem with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State
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    for Scotland, because a genuine difficulty will arise this spring?
    Mr. Mackie: If any further evidence came to us, we should, naturally, take it into consideration in reconsidering the Act.
    Mr. W. Baxter: Is my hon. Friend aware that we are all very pleased to hear that reconsideration may be given to this question, as a considerable volume of opinion has been expressed in Scotland among hill sheep farmers about their inability to carry out the purpose of the Act? It would be much better, in my opinion at least, to alter the week to, perhaps, a month in order to give people a proper opportunity to meet the desire of Parliament as expressed in the requirements of the Act. Will my hon. Friend give serious consideration to the whole question?
    Mr. Mackie: I want to make quite plain that I said that, if there were further evidence from responsible bodies, for instance, the British Veterinary Association, then we should give reconsideration to the Act. Until that evidence comes forward, I am afraid not.

    Loss of Tenancies (Compensation)
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now make a statement on measures to be taken to provide more adequate compensation to tenant farmers whose land is subject to compulsory purchase orders.
    Mr. John Mackie: No, Sir. I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his earlier Question on this subject on 2nd December, 1964.
    Mr. Walker: The Government have announced that they intend to go in for considerable programmes of new towns and overspill projects, and this will mean a good deal of hardship to tenant farmers. Is it not essential that the Government co-ordinate their plans for housing with their plans for looking after tenant farmers adversely affected by compulsory purchase orders?
    Mr. Mackie: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but he must realise that a great deal of discussion has to take place with the National Farmers' Union, the Country Landowners' Association, the

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    local authorities, the Treasury, and the Ministries responsible for housing and lard. All this takes time. Yesterday, we were accused of too much haste. I do not think that there should be pressure today for too much haste.
    Mr. Soames: I very well appreciate that a lot of discussions are necessary before a conclusion is reached. Is it the Minister's intention to ensure that tenant farmers have an improved basis of compensation as compared with that which is possible under existing legislation?
    Mr. Mackie: My right hon. Friend, when he answered some questions in the Press, along with the right hon. Gentleman, made the promise that consideration would be given to making the ex gratia award a statutory one.

    Eggs
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will consult the President of the Board of Trade to prevent the dumping of eggs from Eastern Europe during the peak period of production in this country.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Hoy): No, Sir. I have no reason to believe that the number of eggs coming from Eastern Europe is likely to be sufficient to threaten the home industry.
    Mr. Gilmour: The importation of even a very small number of eggs disrupts the market. As the egg industry is in a very sensitive condition now, will the Minister do his best to take action along these lines as soon as possible?
    Mr. Hoy: No, the importation of eggs is so small that it does not have any appreciable effect on the home market.
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the value of eggs imported into this country from Eastern Europe during 1964; and from which countries they came.
    Mr. Hoy: In the first 11 months of 1964, from January until November, the total value of shell eggs imported from Eastern Europe was £400,600, and the value of egg products was £541,000.
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    These imports came from Poland, Roumania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia.
    Mr. King: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that more than 20 per cent. of these imports came from Poland? Is he able to justify that figure? Has he not revealed that in this way we are losing more than £1 million? Did he not, in reply to a previous Question today, say that the amount was negligible? In the light of what his right hon. Friend is doing and telling us about the value of small exports, does he regard £l million as negligible in the balance of payments?
    Mr. Hoy: I do not regard £1 million as negligible. I think that my record on the Public Accounts Committee will prove that. If we are to expect to sell to other countries, they have to expect that we will buy from them. Let me make it perfectly clear that the amount of egg imports is relatively negligible in relation to the total supply of eggs available to the consumer in this country.
    Mr. Prior: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that his attitude now is in stark contrast to the attitude taken by Labour candidates throughout the country before the election when they were constantly urging farmers to go for more import controls, giving the impression that they would back them in that?
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman's interpretation of what everybody else was saying has no relation to fact.

    Livestock (Intensive Husbandry)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of public concern at the increase in the application of factory methods in the production of farm animals, particularly cattle and pigs; and what action he intends to take in the matter.
    Sir W. Teelingasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are the latest figures for hens in battery cages for egg production and whether these figures have increased in the last 12 months; what information he has as to whether the modern intensive rearing of beasts and birds for food is in any way producing dangerous food, and whether this especially applies to eggs; and if he will make a statement on the

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    attitude of Her Majesty's Government to protests against these new methods.
    Mr. John Mackie: I refer the hon. Members to the Answers my right hon. Friend gave on 19th and 25th November and 2nd December last. Once my right hon. Friend receives the report of the Brambell Committee, which we hope will be by the end of the summer, he will be able to decide what action may be necessary to safeguard the welfare of animals kept under intensive systems.
    From a survey carried out in September and October last, it is estimated that about 40 per cent. of hens were kept in batteries compared with about 30 per cent. of a slightly smaller flock at the same time in 1963. I am unaware of any information to suggest that modern intensive rearing methods produce dangerous food.
    Mr. Taylor: Does the Minister realise that the public are becoming increasingly concerned not only at the possible effect on consumer health but also about the conditions in which animals are kept in intensive livestock rearing establishments? Is not this concern shown particularly in the cities where people are going to enormous lengths to try to buy farm products direct from farms where they know that intensive husbandry is not practised? In the circumstances, will he consult the Minister of Health to see whether the remit of the Brambell Committee could be extended to include the possible long-term effects on consumer health of intensive husbandry and the techniques associated with it?
    Mr. Mackie: We have some information on this point as regards vitamins. There is no material difference in vitamins and so on as compared with the normal product. The Brambell Committee has been given its remit, and we could not alter it now. We are very conscious of the anxieties of the public about this, but I think that, once the Brambell Committee reports, we shall be able to allay them.
    Sir W. Teeling: Does the Minister realise that there are two sides to this issue? One is the question of cruelty, which is worrying a great many people. In my Question, I was asking him whether any method can be devised whereby people may know when they are buying foodstuffs whether they have
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    been produced by these methods. Will the hon. Gentleman work out means to do something about that? The other side, apart from the question of cruelty, is a matter of health. Many people are getting very worried about this also. Must we wait until the summer before it is answered—as it is suggested by some that quite an element of poisoning is taking place?
    Mr. Mackie: I see nothing in the hon. Gentleman's Question which suggests that he wanted this food marked in any way so that the public would know what it was, and I think that that would be an almost impossible thing to do. It is not too long to wait. Hon. Members should bear in mind that battery keeping of hens has been going on since the mid-1920s, and that deep litter poultry broiler keeping is just an extension of deep litter poultry keeping. When all is said and done, give a pig the choice of a cool dry home to sleep in or a wet warm one, and he will take the wet warm one every time.
    Sir Richard Glyn: Is the Ministry still making money available by way of grants for converting premises into pig sweat boxes and for the more extreme forms of factory farming?
    Mr. Mackie: I should need notice of that question. I do not know whether any grants have been given for that particular job.
    Sir W. Teeling: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Canvey Island (Sea Defences)
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much money has been authorised for expenditure on the maintenance of Canvey Island's sea defences during the year 1965–66; whether any additional capital works are envisaged; and whether he will make a statement on the state of the island's defences.
    Mr. Hoy: Recent events are causing the Essex River Board to review its estimate for expenditure on maintenance in 1965–66 but this will be at least £4,000. Capital works envisaged include works on revetment for which £5,000 has

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    already been approved and engineers are considering the possible expenditure of about £118,000 for the improvement of Hole Haven Creek wall.
    On 20th January the sea defences withstood an unusual and very strong onshore gale. Parts of the sea wall were damaged but the river board promptly carried out first-aid repairs. I am assured by the board that there is no cause for anxiety about the condition of the sea wall and I have no reason to question this assurance. The board recognises the special importance of these defences and of the need for continuing vigilance to ensure not only that the works are maintained to a high standard, but also that further works are carried out whenever required.
    Mr. Braine: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I originally wrote to the Minister about this matter on 30th November? Is it not quite scandalous that, in a matter touching the safety of 18,000 of my constituents, the right hon. Gentleman should have taken over two months to reply?
    Further, is the hon. Gentleman aware that the storm on 20th January tore 90 holes in the wall? It is true that the river board moved with tremendous speed but subsequently the chairman of the board complained that his labour force had been reduced because of delays in the hon. Gentleman's Department. Is the hon. Member aware that the local authority did not receive a tidal warning?
    In view of the importance of this matter and the tragic events of 11 years ago, will the hon. Gentleman inject a little responsibility and energy into those concerned?
    Mr. Hoy: What the hon. Gentleman said is quite unfair to my Department. The river board is the responsible authority for carrying out that work. All the repairs to the wall have to be carried out by the river board. My Department comes into it only if grants are required for new work. If we interfered with the responsible authorities, the hon. Member would be the first to complain.
    Sir J. Maitland: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Waverley Report specifically recommended that grants should be available for maintenance? In the interests of public safety and the considerations
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    envisaged by my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine), which apply to other parts of the coast, will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the question of helping river boards to carry out their very heavy task of maintaining the banks?
    Mr. Hoy: I do not doubt that that is what the Waverley Report recommended but at present the only grants available are for new works. The question raised by the hon. Member for Horncastle (Sir J. Maitland) presents a different aspect. Perhaps he will put it on the Order Paper, when I will be happy to consider it.
    Mr. Braine: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply and the fact that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has not been completely frank with the House on this matter, I beg to give notice—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It is essential that hon. Members giving notice should adhere to the traditional formula and not introduce into it matters quite inappropriate to the notice.
    Hon. Members: Withdraw.

    Channel Islands Milk
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the supply of Channel Islands milk, in view of the fact that the recent price increase is inadequate.
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a further statement on his policy for the price of Channel Islands milk.
    Mr. Bessellasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the representations made to him by producers of Channel Islands milk, he will now announce measures to encourage and increase production.
    Mr. Hoy: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman) on 17th December. The Order promised in that reply has now been made. My right hon. Friend remains convinced that the provision made in the Order is sufficient to meet the case.
    Mr. Digby: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread dissatisfaction that this announcement, after a long delay, was made in a Written Answer only? Is it not the case that this higher payment will apply in only two months before next October? That is totally inadequate for the producers of Channel Islands milk.
    Mr. Hoy: There may have been a long delay but that was not due to this Government. The hon. Gentleman must remember that even now Channel Islands milk is costing the consumer about 1½d. a pint more than ordinary milk. That is 17½ per cent. dearer and it is to that that we have added the present sum which we hope will be sufficient to encourage production in winter, when milk is short.
    Mr. Ridley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the previous Government had decided to go back to a free market for Channel Islands milk and that the delay is the fault of the present Government? Why has the Ministry changed its decision? Why is the hon. Gentleman so absorbed in control by State price setting? Would it not be better to return to a free market?
    Mr. Hoy: The previous Government had long enough to consider this. If they had come to a decision they were free to implement it but did not do so. In the new circumstances we felt that what we were giving, through increased prices to the producer, was both fair to the producer and to the consumer who has to pay for it.
    Mr. Soames: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that our decision in the last Government was reached during the Summer Recess and that I thought it more civil to Parliament that, before I made such a considerable alteration in the structure of milk supply, I should place the matter before the House? We announced our decision to do this subject to Parliamentary approval and it was my intention to lay an Order before the House. There is no question of delay by the previous Administration.
    What is more important is that this issue is purely of supply and demand of one article. How can the hon. Gentleman know whether this is the right price which will get the right supply for the demand? Why not free milk and give satisfaction to all concerned?
    Mr. Hoy: How does the right hon. Gentleman know? How did he make his decision? We found many decisions about increasing prices which were postponed by the previous Government until after the General Election.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Gentleman says that the Channel Islands milk producer gets 1½d. a pint more than the producer of ordinary milk, who is in any case very much underpaid. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the differential between the two is right but that neither price is high enough?
    Mr. Hoy: If the producer of ordinary milk is underpaid—I do not venture an opinion—that is the result of the policy of the previous Government.

    Canadian Apples (Import)
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the concern in the apple industry caused by the sudden importation of Canadian apples at a time when they will clash with higher quality British fruit coming out of cold storage; and what action he proposes to take to prevent this happening on further occasions.
    Mr. Hoy: No, Sir. I have received no representations from the industry about imports of Canadian apples; nor am I aware that there has been any recent change in the general pattern of imports, which are regulated by quota arrangements. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will make no changes in the existing arrangements for the importation of apples?
    Mr. Hoy: I have no intention of doing so. That was not the Question.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that he will not give an assurance that he will maintain quotas of apple imports? Will he be more specific?
    Mr. Hoy: The hon. Gentleman has difficulty in understanding. I said that I had no intention of altering them.

    Processed Cereals
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that the minimum import

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    price for processed cereals confers an advantage on the imported product as compared with the home-produced product; and if, in view of the need to reduce unnecessary imports, to give additional outlets for British products, and to honour the objectives of the minimum import price arrangements, he will review the present conditions.
    Mr. Peart: I am not aware that the minimum import prices for processed cereals confer any advantage on the imported product. In accordance with the terms of the Agreement with our overseas suppliers, the Government will review the minimum import price arrangements before the beginning of the next crop year.
    Mr. Prior: Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this again? Is it not true that the minimum import prices schedule at present gives an advantage to imported goods in the form other than the original grain and that this is causing a good deal of concern, particularly in the Eastern Counties, and has also been taken up by one of the trade associations?
    Mr. Peart: If there is any difficulty affecting one particular trade I will be only too pleased to have the information. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a levy has been imposed affecting certain imports.

    Grey Seals
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take action to restore the normal close season for grey seals, namely, from 1st September to 31st December.
    Mr. Peart: I have no power to vary or revoke the Order which has already been made suspending the close season on the Farne Islands until 4th December, 1965. Although the close season is suspended during the currency of the Order, it still remains an offence for any unauthorised person to kill the seals.
    Mr. Wall: Is it not a fact that if poachers kill a seal, they can be fined only £5 under existing National Trust regulations, and that that would be a fine of £5 for one occasion, while they can get approximately £10 per seal skin
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    on the Continent? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this again, because, with only 26 days for the close season, the seals may be exterminated?
    Mr. Peart: I will look at what the hon. Gentleman has said. What I have said explains the Order and its effect.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Has the right hon. Gentleman any evidence of the poaching of grey seals on any scale off the Farne Islands?
    Mr. Peart: No. There was one earlier case of the taking of seals and there was a possibility of prosecution, but that does not exist now.

    Maize (Imports)
    Sir Richard Glynasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what quantity of maize has been imported into the United Kingdom in the three months to the last convenient date; how much this maize has cost and what proportion of the cost is represented in dollars; and if he will give the corresponding figures for the same periods in 1964 and 1963.
    Mr. Hoy: During the last quarter of 1964 imports of maize amounted to 982,000 tons valued at £22·3 million. About three-quarters of this quantity was shipped direct from North America but the precise dollar cost cannot be calculated because the c.i.f. value includes freight. The quantities imported in the corresponding quarter of 1962 and 1963 were 1·07 million and 1·.09 million tons valued at £20·9 million and £24·4 million respectively. Direct shipments from North America accounted for 74 per cent. and 67 per cent. of total imports in the last quarter of 1962 and 1963 respectively.
    Sir Richard Glyn: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the dollar cost of importing maize is showing an alarming increase? As we can do without imported maize, will he and his right hon. Friend consider whether the time has come when they should have a good look at this expensive import?
    Mr. Hoy: The United States share of this import has remained fairly steady over the last two years. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion

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    about discrimination would meet with much approval from my right hon. Friend.

    Agricultural Workers (Sickness Benefit Scheme)
    Mr. Derek Pageasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he intends to introduce legislation to empower the Agricultural Wages Board to introduce a sickness benefit scheme for agricultural workers.
    Mr. John Mackie: This matter is under consideration but I am not yet able to make a statement.
    Mr. Page: Does my hon. Friend agree that farm workers have a right to expect a sickness benefit scheme? Is he aware that they are looking to him for the very earliest action in this respect?
    Mr. Mackie: Yes, I am perfectly aware of that. We made this pledge during the election and we have every intention of carrying it out.
    Mr. Prior: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this pledge was made, well in advance of the election, by the Chief Secretary as long ago as last Whitsun? Has not the time come to implement it?

    Farmers' Costs
    Mr. Eldon Griffithsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give an assurance that the recent steep rise in farmers' costs of production will be taken into account in the price review.
    Mr. John Mackie: Yes, increases in farmers' costs will be taken into account, together with all other relevant factors.
    Mr. Griffiths: I am sure that the farmers will appreciate that reply and will hold the hon. Gentleman to it. Is he not aware that an industry which is making a remarkable contribution not only to the increase in production in this country, but also to the balance of payments, is suffering genuine difficulties, especially among small farmers, because of the petrol tax and higher interest rates? Will he consider in the Price Review getting rid of these excessive taxes and also giving the farming community a chance to earn its share of the home market?
    Mr. Mackie: If the hon. Gentleman was in the House yesterday, he would have heard my right hon. Friend promise that the levy would be taken off as soon as practicable. All other costs will be taken into account and we are especially considering the position of small farmers.
    Mr. Soames: Would it be right to assume that the increased cost to the industry in the coming year will be well in excess of £25 million, a large part of it as a direct result of the Government's actions?
    Mr. Mackie: No, it would not be right to assume that.
    Mr. Snow: Does my hon. Friend recall that I recently submitted for his examination figures about milk production in this country showing that, of eight substantial items connected with the industry, recent price increases were prior to October?
    Mr. Mackie: Yes, I saw those figures and they will be taken into account.

    Potato Deficiency Payment, Northern Ireland
    Mr. Henry Clarkasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the payment of the subsidy on the 1960 potato crop to farmers who grew potatoes in Northern Ireland in that year.
    Mr. John Mackie: I am sorry I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. Forrest) on 20th January.
    Mr. Clark: Would the hon. Gentleman keep in mind that the continued failure to make a decision on this matter is damaging the confidence which previously existed between farmers in Northern Ireland and Ministry of Agriculture officials?
    Mr. Mackie: That cannot possibly be the case, because the previous Government took more than four years with this job and we have been only three months and we are nearer to a decision than they were.

    Meat (Import)
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will

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    start negotiations to agree a system of import levies for meat with the United Kingdom's main suppliers.
    Mr. Peart: No, Sir. It would be of no help to producers or consumers to restrict imports of meat at the present time, whether by import levies or other means.
    Mr. Ridley: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is some need to put a limit on the Exchequer liability for deficiency payments for meat? In view of the unfortunate breakdown of the meat quota talks last year, would he not agree that there is a case for exploring the possibility of agreeing—and I emphasise "agreeing"—levies with our main suppliers as an alternative?
    Mr. Peart: I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would appreciate that there was a strong demand for meat in the world and that to have a restriction of that kind would be unworkable and harmful to the consumer.

    Farmers' Incomes
    Mr. Snowasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his present policy towards the desire of the National Farmers' Union to increase average farm income by 25 per cent., in view of the wide variety and size of farming businesses.
    Mr. Peart: We intend to promote an efficient agriculture in which farmers can earn a fair reward. The trend of farmers' incomes will of course be one of the factors considered at the Annual Review and we shall have regard to the type and size of farm businesses. But incomes cannot be considered in isolation from the other relevant factors which must be taken into account each year.
    Mr. Snow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that all the farmers I have met in my part of Staffordshire are prepared to shoulder their part of the national burden bequeathed to them by the previous Administration and that his policy of ensuring a reasonable and decent improvement in incomes will be in sharp contradistinction to their experience under Tory Administrations?
    Mr. Peart: I am glad that my hon. Friend has made such a forceful comment, but he must be aware that this matter will be considered in the Annual Review.
    Mr. Soames: Will the right hon. Gentleman show us that in this Review, which is shortly to begin, he intends to give a considerable increase in farmers' incomes in the coming year?
    Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that if I responded to that question it would be highly improper.
    Sir C. Osborne: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the incomes of farmers or the wages of farm workers can increase unless the prices for what they produce are increased?
    Mr. Peart: I am well aware that the wages of farm workers are affected by many factors, one of which is the improvement of farming efficiency in the broad sense.

HOUSING FOR LONDONERS
The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Richard Crossman): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement on housing for Londoners.
In co-operation with the local authorities, I am making every effort to stimulate house building within the conurbation. But there are limits to the extent that London can be built up, and there can be no doubt that the needs of the existing population call for a new programme of building in new and expanded towns in order to end the housing shortage, replace houses lost through slum clearance and other redevelopment, and keep pace with natural increase.
A critical fact is that the output of houses in the present new towns is running down as they near completion. Immediate decisions are necessary if we are to avoid a disastrous gap in housing for Londoners.
To prevent this the Government propose, as an interim measure, to go ahead with a new town in North Buckinghamshire and with the expansion of Ipswich, Peterborough and Northampton. I will shortly be discussing with local authorities concerned the measures needed to implement these proposals including the surveys that will be needed to determine the precise siting of the development. In particular, I shall be considering with

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them the desirability of using the machinery of the New Towns Act for these schemes.
I am also discussing with the Greater London Council the possibility of an expansion of some of its existing overspill schemes.
There remains the question of land for people who move themselves out of London into the Home Counties. Some of these will move well away, but many will want and will need to live within reach of London, and they must have the chance to do so. Moreover, land must be made available for the new households of the population already living in the 40-mile ring. My Department will shortly be discussing with the individual local planning authorities where, in the outer metropolitan region, this additional land can best be provided, leaving aside, for the time being, the question of any provision for migration into the South-East.
These measures are urgently needed to ensure a continued housing programme for people who have to move out of London. In order to avoid prejudicing the South-East review, especially in relation to migration from other parts of the country. the Government's aim will be to secure that an even greater proportion of houses provided will go to Londoners than in the existing new towns; also, that the employment provided will be in activities that cannot be located further away from London, and not, for example, in new industrial growth that could take place elsewhere in Great Britain.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we shall want carefully to study, and, no doubt, in due course to debate, his statement? Does he acknowledge that in the work which went into it he received a good deal of help from the massive study undertaken by officials under the direction of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and presented to Parliament last year?
Could the Minister clear up one or two points of detail on the statement? He specifically names three towns in the statement, but refers also to a new town in North Buckinghamshire. Has he, in fact, decided on the location of
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that town? If so, is there any reason why it should not be mentioned with the others? Did he have in mind Bletchley, as is suggested in the South-East Study?
Secondly, did the right hon. Gentleman have any consultations with the authorities of the towns whose names he did mention before taking the decision and making this announcement?
Finally, is he aware that the steps referred to particularly in the latter part of his statement depend for their success on a steady supply of land continuing to be available? Will he give an assurance that no steps taken by him or by his colleagues will interfere with the free flow of that land?
Mr. Crossman: The Government will consider the question of a debate, but that will be discussed through the usual channels. I acknowledge, and very freely, the work of our officials, not only in my Ministry but in all the other Ministries concerned, which went on before we came to office and which has continued since. I would make this point, however. After the officials have done their work, the politicians have to take some decisions on action. This is a decision on action for creating new towns on an unprecedented scale and, indeed, I think, in the case of Buckinghamshire, the largest new town since the war.
On details, the right hon. Gentleman asked me why I mentioned specifically the three old towns which are now, perhaps, to have the new town organisation to double their size—I think that in each case we hope to have enough room for 70,000 people. The right hon. Gentleman asked why I did not mention a specific place in Buckinghamshire. The answer is that negotiations are still taking place about where precisely this new town should be situated, and we do not want to commit ourselves to one particular place rather than another in the North Buckinghamshire area since we are discussing the matter with the county council.
With regard to the old towns, we have been having discussions with the authorities concerned and, in principle, have reached agreement, although the specific details of planning have yet to be worked out in the normal way.

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The right hon. Gentleman, lastly, asked me about the provision of land. This whole policy is designed to obtain land. This is precisely its function. If the Government can by further legislation produce a further instrument for the acquisition of land, I shall be very grateful.
Mr. F. Noel-Baker: The Minister will be aware that, although generally, for other purposes, it belongs to the South-West, Swindon is referred to in the South-East Study. Can he say whether, among the local authorities with whom he is to have conversations about expanding existing overspill schemes, Swindon is included, when he expects to have the conversations and when he will be able to make a fuller announcement?
Mr. Crossman: I emphasise that this is an interim statement on a pressing programme which we cannot delay any further for the review of the South-East Study. Swindon was mentioned in the South-East Study; so were a good many other places. I have merely told the House today of the Government's decision to go ahead on a limited scale because of the pressing needs of London's overspill. At a rough calculation, I would say that we would hope to provide places for 350,000 people in this interim scheme. The South-East Study calculated for 600,000 people, and Swindon falls in the second round. That will fall for review in the review of the South-East Study.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The Minister mentioned Peterborough as one of the three towns to be extended and said that he will have another survey made. Is he not going to make use of the Wells plan which is already available and which has the approval of the local authority? Also, has he made arrangements with the President of the Board of Trade to ensure that his right hon. Friend is more helpful with industrial development certificates to account for the extra population which he envisages?
Mr. Crossman: The hon. Gentleman should put down the last question to the President of the Board of Trade. Regarding further development in Peterborough, I emphasise that all these developments have to be worked out in terms of specific planning in discussion with the local authorities. I am aware of the Wells plan; no doubt it will be
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useful. This is a matter for discussion—a new enterprise, which is to use the new town machinery for doubling the size of existing towns, not providing a new town. This is the kind of collaboration which will rely on the good will of the old towns. We are confident that we have it in Peterborough. But I do not want to pre-commit the authorities on questions which must be settled in the discussion of precise plans.
Mr. Paget: Is my right hon. Friend saying that we in Northampton have to take an expansion which roughly doubles our size without further industry?
Mr. Crossman: That is not what I am saying. The discussions with Northampton have been on the normal new town basis. What I said in my statement was that we must be careful that in the expansion of these towns we do not expand the kinds of industry which we should like to see in our development areas. These places must have industrial expansion and office expansion. That will be planned in collaboration with the Board of Trade.
Sir R. Thompson: In considering the special needs of Londoners in this exercise, will the Minister bear in mind that they do not necessarily need to be exported outside the London boroughs? Will he try to inject urgency into the redevelopment of 280 acres of Croydon Airport, which for many years has neither flown off aircraft nor provided anything useful for the surrounding population? Will he really knock a few heads together and set down time limits after which, if necessary, he will produce a solution of his own?
Mr. Crossman: I am grateful to the hon. Member for that reference to building inside Greater London, because, obviously, it would be quite irresponsible to make a suggestion for an extremely expensive scheme of new towns if it was not planned in conjunction with the maximum use of housing land within the Greater London area.
We made calculations and we reassessed the possibilities and I reckon that we should be able to increase the annual production of houses, that is to say, dwellings—flats and houses—inside London from, say, 27,000 a year, which is roughly the present figure, to 35,000 or even 50,000 a year. That is the kind

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of thing we ought to be able to do. Even if we get up to 35,000 houses a year, however, we shall be 15,000 houses a year short on the minimum calculation of London's natural increase. This estimate does not take account of people moving into London from outside; all that is extra.
I am concerned to see that inside London the sites are used to the best effect. We have, fortunately, had windfalls quite recently. I am thinking of the two aerodromes—Croydon, to which the hon. Member has referred, and Hendon—and of Woolwich, and also of railway land, which was to be auctioned off until the present Government came into power and which, I hope, will now be used for housing.
Mr. Maxwell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the majoirty of my constituents and local authorities will welcome his statement, as it is now certain that the new town will be located in North Buckinghamshire? Will my right hon. Friend say whether the new town to be located there is anything like the Pooley town, of which so much has been written and talked about? Will he also consider setting up a North Buckinghamshire development corporation, because we are talking here about the development of part of a county and not just one town?
Will my right hon. Friend consider using his good offices with his other right hon. Friends in the Government to remove some Government Departments and encourage office building in Bletchley and in other parts of North Bucks, so as to provide employment, which we so urgently need in that area if it is to continue to expand?
Mr. Crossman: We shall certainly try to get office building in all these areas, which, I might add, are 45 miles and more from London.
I want to be careful, because Buckinghamshire County Council has its own plans. The county council has a very gifted architect, Mr. Pooley, and a magnificent vision of a town. It is still to be agreed between the county council and us whether the county council should make it its new town, or whether it will need capital on such a scale that the county council might be better
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served if we used our new town organisation.
This is something which has to be discussed with the county council, Therefore, I cannot make any statement about exactly what rôle Mr. Pooley will play or what exactly the relationship will be between the county organisation and the new town organisation.
Mr. Deedes: May I ask two questions arising from the Minister's statement? First, where does it leave the towns which are already expanding, such as Ashford, in terms of priority for industry and for offices in relation to the three towns which he has just announced? Secondly, towards the end of his statement the Minister mentioned the need to make more land nearer London available for those who wish to have easy access to and from London. Has he taken into account, and will he discuss with the railway and other transport authorities, the fact that the commuter services from many parts of the Home Counties are already at bursting point? What will be done to meet the increased transit of passengers?
Mr. Crossman: It is obvious that if people are to live at commuter distance from London, even the present population, without the addition of anybody else, needs an improved commuter service. It is also true, however, that whatever any Government may wish, a number of people are determined to live within range of London. The real issue is whether they are to seep out there in an unplanned way or whether we can plan growth carefully.
Although I mentioned these projects as examples of new towns further out, I said that all the arrangements for overspill and expansion would continue with the Greater London Council. Therefore, although I cannot make a specific statement about Ashford, I can say that there are expansions which will continue as at present.
The last point which I take up is the relationship between green belt and overspill. In my statement, I emphasised that it is extremely important for us to get agreement between the local authorities concerned and the Government about how much of this overspill each of them will take into their area and how it will

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be accommodated in relation to the green belt. This is the point of the discussions which I shall now initiate, and I regard it as of the greatest importance in solving the problem.
In addition, obviously we must discuss transport. I refer the right hon. Member to the indication in the South-East Study that with a certain amount of capital investment in the south of London, a very large increase of commuter traffic could be borne by the railways and that something could be done. Obviously, however, this must be planned in relation to overspill.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We cannot debate this matter without a Question before the House.
Dr. David Kerr: On a point of order. With all respect and some temerity, Mr. Speaker, may I say that it would seem to be a pity if you should deny London Members of Parliament an opportunity to express their gratitude to the Minister? I should appreciate a moment of the time of the House to do precisely that.
Mr. Speaker: I will explain the position. I have a duty to help the House to get on with its business. I am also quite aware of how widespread must be the interest in a topic of this kind. I hope that the constituents of no hon. Member who is eagerly rising without success will think he has not been doing his best.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order. Three constituencies were specifically mentioned in the statement made by the Minister. Is it not the normal practice, Mr. Speaker, that hon. Members representing those constituencies are given notice that a statement is about to be made?
Mr. Speaker: That does not raise a point of order.

SPORTS COUNCIL
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement.
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The Government have decided to establish a Sports Council, to advise them on matters relating to the development of amateur sport and physical recreation services and to foster cooperation among the statutory authorities and voluntary organisations concerned.
It is the intention that, in my capacity as the Minister with a responsibility for sport, I should be the Chairman of the Council.
The Prime Minister has issued invitations to the following to become members of the Council and I have every reason to believe that they will indicate their willingness to serve: Lady Burton, Kathleen Holt, David Bacon, Dr. Roger Bannister, Ian Black, Sir Learie Constantine, John Disley, Bernard Donoughue, Michael Dower, George Edwards, Dr. Stewart Mackintosh, David Munrow, Lord Porchester, Clive Rowlands, Dan Smith, and Sir John Lang, Principal Adviser on Sport, who will be Deputy Chairman.
The Director of the Council will be Mr. Walter Winterbottom. I am grateful to the Central Council of Physical Recreation for releasing him for this important new post.
Particular subjects which it is intended that the Council should advise on are: Standards of provision of sports facilities for the community; collation of information about the position in other countries; surveys of resources and regional planning; co-ordination of the use of community resources; research; development of training and coaching; likely capital expenditure; participation in sporting events overseas by British amateur teams; and priorities in sports development.
The Government expect that all bodies who have responsibility for sport and physical recreation and receive grant aid from official sources will collaborate with the Council.
Mr. Hogg: We would like to wish all good fortune to the distinguished ladies and gentlemen who are expected to signify their consent to serve on this body. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm my understanding of his statement, which is, that this is an advisory body without direct responsibility for the allocation of funds? If so, does he not agree that, however labelled, this is not

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the fulfilment of the pledge in the Labour Party's election manifesto to provide an executive body?
Will the hon. Gentleman elucidate these points? What is to be the relationship between the composite bodies, so-called, the Central Council of Physical Recreation, the National Playing Fields Association, the British Olympics Association, and the Scottish equivalents of some of these bodies, and the new Council and the Government? Will he give an assurance that they will have the right of direct access to the Ministers concerned, and to him, in particular?
Could the hon. Gentleman elucidate the phrase which relates to the present General Secretary to the Central Council of Physical Recreation? Does it mean that his services are being taken from the Central Council altogether, or that he will double his existing post with that of directorship of the new body?
Lastly, does the new body supersede, or will it work in conjunction with, the committee headed by Sir John Lang for the allocation of funds for the participation by British amateurs in overseas functions in connection with sport? Can he tell us what the position is there?
Mr. Howell: I am grateful for the good wishes that the right hon. and learned Gentleman expressed at the beginning of his comments. I am glad that he did. He mentioned the question of the fulfilment of party promises. It is quite true that this is an advisory council. The Wolfenden Committee on Sport recommended many years ago an executive body. Of course, that is a considerable distance away now; much has happened since. In considering what has happened in the interim, and particularly the urgency of establishing the Sports Council, and the need, if we were to have an executive body, to promote legislation to bring it into effect, it was felt, on the balance of considerations, that it was right to do the job at once with an advisory committee. So that the Government should demonstrate that the advice of the Council will be taken very seriously it was thought right, in these circumstances, that I should be its Chairman.
I can only say, about party positions, since the right hon. and learned Gentle-
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man mentioned them, that all three political parties in recent years—for the last five years, to my knowledge—have been committed to establishing a Sports Council. I am glad that at long last we have implemented that promise.
As to Mr. Winterbottom, he is not doubling up; it would be quite wrong for him to do so. There are other organisations in the field as well as the Central Council. He has been seconded, at any rate in the first place, for a number of years, to take this new, important post.
As to Sir John Lang's advisory committee about overseas teams, obviously, the Sports Council, when considering overseas participation, will work with Sir John's committee, which is likely to continue in existence.
I think that the remaining point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman made, and a very important one, was the relationship with the several voluntary bodies. I am happy to say that as far as possible either people serving on those bodies are on the Sports Council, or have been kept informed, and that we have every intention of working in close connection with them.
Mr. Hogg: Will they have direct access?
Mr. Howell: All sporting people at all times have access to me—within reason.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: May I congratulate my hon. Friend very warmly on the statement which he has made this afternoon and on the general progress which he has made since he took his present office? May I say that I congratulate him also on the choice of members for his Council, and, in particular, on the choice of Mr. Walter Winterbottom as Director, which I regard as a guarantee of effective action?
May I express to him the hope, which, I think, is shared by many hon. Members, that the Wolfenden Report will in due course be implemented, in particular by the increase of the provision of money by the Government? Will he continue to urge on the Treasury, as I continue to urge on him, that investment by the Treasury in facilities for sport will bring them a very handsome dividend in the reduction of the cost of juvenile delinquency and crime which, year by year, they have to bear?
Mr. Howell: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I think that the announcement which I have now made, as well as my own appointment by the Prime Minister initially, are guarantees of what my right hon. Friend wants in this respect.
Mr. Fell: Would I be right in assuming that the statement which has been made by the Minister will not result in any cost to the taxpayer. If I am wrong in assuming that, how much will it cost?
Mr. Howell: The hon. Gentleman is certainly wrong in assuming it will not cost anything. The main job of the Council is to survey the resources throughout the country, to determine national and regional priorities. When we have that information we shall then be able to make an intelligent estimate of the cost, which we cannot do at the moment.
Mr. Dalyell: How will the policy of the Sports Council be carried out in the country in this regional planning, and what agency will be used to do its work?
Mr. Howell: We shall use the existing agencies. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question, which is an important one. In particular, the Central Council of Physical Recreation has regional officers and regional machinery, and has taken a lead in the North-East to get a North-East Advisory Council for Sport and Recreation, and will be the main agent for carrying out our work, and we shall also have the National Playing Fields Association and the Olympics Association.
The Earl of Dalkeith: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the tourist industry, arid, in particular, the Scottish tourist industry, will be represented on this advisory body, in view of the enormous attraction which sporting facilities have for tourists, particularly in Scotland?
Mr. Howell: The membership of the Sports Council is composed of independent people not representing any other interest, although Scottish tourism, and tourism generally, is a matter which we have borne in mind in establishing membership of this body.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS
  Needs of the Elderly
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 19th February, I shall call attention to the needs of the elderly, and move a Resolution.
  Family Doctors
  Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 19th February, I shall call attention to the plight of the family doctor, and move a Resolution.
  Industry (Communications and Understanding)
  Mr. Charles Morris: On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris), I beg to give notice that on Friday, 19th February, he will call attention to the need for improved communications and understanding in industry, and move a Resolution.
  BILL PRESENTED
    CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (ATTENDANCE OF WITNESSES)
    Mr. Charles Morris: Bill to make new provision for securing the attendance of witnesses in criminal proceedings before courts of assize and quarter sessions; and to abolish the binding over of prosecutors for the purpose of such proceedings, presented by Mr. Martin McLaren; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 9th April, and to be printed. [Bill 72.]

    LABELLING OF FOOD
    4.0 p.m.
    Mrs. Joyce Butler: I beg to move,
    That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for the labelling of food and toilet preparations, the display of notices in relation to food, and matters connected therewith.
    During the last few weeks I have been almost completely overwhelmed by telephone calls, personal messages, and letters from members of the public and members of organisations who are concerned about the vast quantity of chemical additives of all kinds that we are consuming in our food today.
    What the effect of all this may be on our health we can only guess, but there are some very disturbing happenings and indications. Last year, 250 million working days were lost in this country through sickness, and doctors are very worried about the growing use of food chemicals in this connection. So, too, are most of the womens' organisations, many of whom have sent resolutions on this subject both to the previous Government and to the present Government.
    The National Association for Health is collecting considerable evidence of the relation between food additives and ill-health, and a recent report by 12 cancer specialists to the World Health Organisation said:
    "Food additives could be dangerous and none should be allowed on the market unless thoroughly tested. Too many additives are introduced and their number should either be reduced or testing facilities increased."
    Our legal maxim, "innocent until proved guilty", is lethal when applied to food. "Suspect until proved innocent" should be the watchword of food manufacturers and everyone concerned with the production of food, but, unfortunately, many food manufacturers insist that housewives, who are the main purchasers, want their peas in tins to be coloured emerald green, their strawberry and raspberry jams to be scarlet, and their cakes and sweets to be all colours of the rainbow, and on this basis they add dyes of all kinds to practically every thing which is sold in a packet or a tin. In fact, the consumer is never consulted on this matter, and an increasing number of people are so concerned that they are patronising health food shops and other
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    stores where food without dangerous additives is sold.
    Of course, if consumers are offered a choice between two equally wholesome products, only one of which is attractively presented, they will choose the attractive one. But if the attractive package is dangerous to health and this fact is known, there is no parent in this country, and certainly no mother, who would willingly give that product to a child to eat. That is our dilemma today. We just do not know what is contained inside the attractive wrappings or packets of food in the shops.
    There is no agreement between the experts on this question of food colouring. In this country we list 30 colourings in food, and most of the colourings that we use are banned in America. On the other hand, the Americans list 15, of which we ban nine. The six colourings which the Food Standards Committee recommended last July should be removed from our permitted list—they are coal-tar based and, therefore, potentially carcinogenic, or cancer producing—have still not been banned. I appreciate that the present Ministry is dealing with this question urgently, but at the same time, this is the fact which we must face.
    It is vital that the consumer should be able to see on the label or packet, or on a notice displayed where foods are not wrapped, the actual chemicals which have been added, and I do not believe that it would be any more difficult for a food manufacturer to do this than it is to print on the label, "artificial colouring", or "artificial flavouring", as many of them do today.
    Of course, we need preservatives in out food, but what preservatives are being used? What are the anti-oxidants which are used to prevent fats becoming rancid? How dangerous are the emulsifiers which are used to break up fats in cheeses and other spreads to make them spread easily? What is the effect on health of the stabilisers which are used in mayonnaise and other products where creams are prevented from reverting to fat or oils? We do not know, but all are suspect.
    We do not know the effect of the artificial sweeteners which are widely used, or the synthetic flavourings which create the wonderful taste and aroma of smoked kippers, fresh raspberries, or

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    tender chickens. They are all synthetic and all potentially dangerous. Above all, we do not know the effect of the combination of all these things both on healthy people and on people with a particular susceptibility. We do not know the effect on the very young who eat so many of the "pretty" foods which are highly coloured, or on the elderly who need to get the maximum nourishment from the limited amount of food that they eat. Intensive research on all this is needed urgently, and no additives should be allowed until they pass the test of safety.
    At present, we are playing blind man's buff when we choose food, and the purpose of my Bill would be to remove the bandages from our eyes so that we can see clearly, when we look at the label, what we are eating. I believe that we should soon come to recognise the chemical terms which would have to be used. It is not very long since the terms, "Strontium 90", "fluoride" and "thalidomide" were known only to the experts, but today they are part of everyone's vocabulary.
    As hon. Members will have noted,a short time ago a farmer was taken to hospital suffering from an infection contracted from his stock. Antibiotics were useless in his case, because his system had absorbed so many from the food he had eaten, and unfortunately, he died. It is for this reason that the Bill I seek to introduce would break new ground. This is one reason why, among many others, the Bill includes the products of factory farming.
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    A new world of horror has been opened up for animals and, I believe, human beings alike by this method of farming with its use of antibiotics, synthetic hormones, growth stimulants, and tranquillisers, and we should be able to avoid these things in the shops if we wish to do so.
    My Bill would also cover pre-packed toilet preparations, because of the risk of absorbing harmful substances through the skin, or, in the case of lipsticks the risk of dyes, which, in America, were proved cancer-producing in rats, being absorbed into the digestive system. It would also cover the dangers from accelerators and insecticides used on fruit or vegetables. While we await the necessary research and legislation to ensure that only safe additives and colourings are used in food, which may take many years, my Bill, if it were passed, would buy time for us all so that we can choose for ourselves, by looking at the label or notice, those foods with the least health risk.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Bill ordered to be brought in by Mrs. Butler, Mrs. Braddock, Sir Stephen McAdden, Mr. John Farr, Mr. John Rankin, and Mr. Jeremy Thorpe.

    LABELLING OF FOOD
    Mrs. Joyce Butler: Bill to make provision for the labelling of food and toilet preparations, the display of notices in relation to food, and matters connected therewith, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday 12th March and to be printed. [Bill 73.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAR DAMAGE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  4.10 p.m.
  Mr. Speaker: It would probably be convenient if I say that I have selected the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) and no other.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The object of the Bill is to restore the common law of England and the law of Scotland to the position which was generally thought to exist before the decision of the House of Lords in the case of the Burmah Oil Company v. the Lord Advocate early last year; and to provide that about 12 cases now pending—and I emphasise the word "pending"—before the court are disposed of on the basis of the law as it has always been thought to be.
  More precisely, the Bill provides that where action is taken on the authority of the Crown, during war or in contemplation of the outbreak of war, resulting in damage to or destruction of property, the owner shall not be entitled to receive from the Crown compensation at common law. The Bill is concerned only with compensation at common law, and leaves unaffected other types of war compensation.
  There are two parts to the Bill—the first establishing law for the future and the second applying this retrospectively to claims arising from the past. I understand that many Members have received a letter from the Chairman of the Burmah Oil Company—some of whose subsidiaries will be affected by the retrospective effect of the Bill—making a number of criticisms against it. I propose to deal with these criticisms specifically during my speech and to comment more widely on events and claims currently at issue which gave rise to the judgement of the House of Lords last year which prompted the presentation of the Bill.
  I begin, however, with the question of the law for the future. The whole question of compensation for damage and
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  destruction inflicted during war presents serious problems for a country whose Government are anxious to secure equitable treatment for their people. The incidence of losses is arbitrary, but it has seemed right to the Government of this country that the burden should as far as possible be shared. Damage and destruction may arise partly from identifiable enemy action or from defensive action of our own forces, or it may arise in the course of actual fighting in which the side responsible for the particular damage may not be identifiable.
  Moreover, the scale of losses in total wars in this century has been so formidable as to make the idea of their reparation in full impossible. Indeed, the depleted resources of the victorious countries after the exactions of recent wars have made restoration and rehabilitation on any scale a heavy burden, and, quite apart from damage to property, there has been an appalling toll of killed and wounded, leaving widows, children and disabled men to be supported. There has, therefore, emerged—no other satisfactory solution would have been possible—the concept of sharing the burden of losses in the country as a whole, on whatever scale the country as a whole can reasonably be held to afford.
  This carries two implications: first, there must be some equitable scheme for distributing such compensation as may be afforded in relation to the losses suffered by individuals; and, secondly, opportunity must not be left open to any special groups amongst those who have suffered loss to claim redress on a preferential scale. Any entitlement to compensation on an indemnity basis of common law would, in effect, give preferential treatment to those enjoying it.
  Until the recent decision to which I have referred it has always been thought by the legal advisers to Her Majesty's Government, and by lawyers generally, that acts done by or on the authority of the Crown in defence of the Realm fell into one of three categories—first, those which are lawful at common law and give no right of action to anyone affected by them; secondly, those which are unlawful at common law which give a right of action for damages to anyone affected; and, thirdly, those which are unlawful at common law, but are authorised by Statute, in which the aggrieved

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  person's right to damages is replaced by a statutory right to compensation, in accordance with a specified procedure.
  Parliament has always legislated, and litigants have always fought their actions, on the basis that that is the law. However, from the judgment of the House of Lords on the Burmah claims it now appears that some of the acts which are lawful acts at common law may, nevertheless, give to persons affected a right to compensation, which is, in principle, indistinguishable from the right to damages, in respect of unlawful acts going beyond even the statutory compensation in the third class to which I have referred.
  The line of argument which decided this case proceeds upon very fine distinctions and, moreover, its ambit has been left vague, since there is no clear line drawn between those lawful acts which do and those which do not give to persons affected by them a right to compensation. Let me take some examples to illustrate the position. If a military commander, during a retreat, orders the destruction of a building to serve as a tank obstacle, that will be battle damage, and no compensation will be payable. But if he orders the destruction of the same building because it is a factory which he thinks would be useful to the enemy's war efforts, and his order is carried out, that will be "denial damage", and full compensation will be payable at common law.
  But if he mines the building and waits until it falls into enemy hands before blowing it up it probably will not give rise to compensation. Or if he waits until the enemy occupies it and then destroys it by artillery or aerial bombardment, that will be battle damage and no compensation will be payable even though his object in destroying it is one of economic warfare.
  I cannot think that these are distinctions which the House will find acceptable. The first part of the Bill deals with these anomalies and it does so by abolishing any right at common law to compensation for damage or for destruction of property caused by lawful acts done by or on the authority of the Crown during or in contemplation of war. That does not mean that no compensation for such damage will ever be payable, but the right to such compensation, and the scale of compensation, must be based on what-
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  ever war damage compensation scheme is able to be devised and afforded by the nation in the particular situation.
  I now turn to the second part of the Bill. I am aware that many Members would readily accept the first part of the Bill, but would, nevertheless, feel anxiety about the proposal to give it retrospective effect. I fully share the view of such hon. Members about the general undesirability of retrospective legislation. There arc, however, well recognised exceptions to the general rule against retrospectivity, and it is only because I am satisfied that this case falls clearly within these exceptions that I am moving the Second Reading of the Bill.
  I should, first, give hon. Members some account of events which gave rise to the claims affected by this part of the Bill. They number twelve, including those of the four subsidiaries of the Burmah Oil Company, of which many hon. Members are aware. The amount claimed by the Burmah Oil Group is over £31 million, together with interest at 5 per cent. totalling a further £36 million at simple interest or £96 million at compound interest. In addition, eight other claimants have claimed about £8 million together, plus interest. The total amounts claimed are therefore about £84 million or, at compound rates, nearly £160 million.
  Sir Peter Agnew: If the hon. and learned Gentleman will permit me to intervene, may ask, is he saying that the amount which, theoretically, on a basis of computation of all the interest, would be claimable by the company if it chose to exercise what it has been told are its full rights amounts to this very large sum of £84 million, or £96 million, or has he taken due note of the fact that the company is believed to have settled and assessed the claim that it intends to pursue at a very much lower figure—certainly not exceeding £30 million gross?
  Mr. MacDermot: What I am stating is the amount which has been claimed on the face of the proceedings, which were commenced, as I shall explain in a moment, within relatively recent times.
  The Crown does not, of course, accept the validity of the claims in this or, indeed, any other sums. If the Bill were not passed, and the litigation proceeded, the claimants might, on one view of the

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  matter, recover nothing at all. The decision of the House of Lords was given under Scottish procedure on a preliminary point of law and the claimants have not yet established the facts in the case which they allege establishes their right to any particular sum of compensation or, as I say, to compensation at all.
  The claims all arise from events in Burma in the spring of 1942. At that time, the Japanese armies were advancing through Burma. In the path of the enemy advances and clearly destined to fall into enemy hands in a short time were certain installations and properties of considerable military and economic value to their possessors, including oil installations, whose value to an enemy in war-time I need hardly stress. Under the "scorched earth" policy which was adopted in the retreat, a substantial number of these installations and properties was deliberately destroyed or extensively damaged under the orders of the military commander so as to deny their use and value to the enemy. This destruction and damage is the basis of the claims against the Crown.
  Within a short time, the area concerned was in enemy hands, where it remained until the Allied Forces were able to win back the territory of Burma. Records from the period of enemy occupation suggest that the Japanese authorities themselves restored some of the property and installations which had been destroyed and they appear to have been redestroyed by the Japanese in the face of the allied advance. Later, the original owners or their representatives were able to resume possession of their properties.
  The policy of His Majesty's Government regarding compensation after the war, applicable to Burma as to other dependent territories, was stated in this House on 18th February, 1943, in these terms:
  "It will be the general aim of His Majesty's Government after the war that, with a view to the well being of the people and the resumption of productive activity, property and goods destroyed or damaged in the Colonial Empire should he replaced or repaired to such extent and over such a period of time as resources permit. If the resources of any part of the Colonial Empire are insufficient to enable this purpose to be achieved without aid, His Majesty's Government would be ready to give what assistance they can in conjunction with such common fund or organisation that may be established
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  for post-war reconstruction."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th February, 1943; Vol. 386, c. 1942.]
  This announcement made two things clear: first, that it would be the part of the Colonial Territories to provide funds in the first instance, with His Majesty's Government's help only where colonial resources were insufficient and, secondly, that the object was to provide for rehabilitation rather than for full compensation.
  In 1946, a Claims Commission was set up in Burma and other Far Eastern Colonies to register and assess claims. This involved no commitment to any right or amount of compensation. The Burma Claims Commission received claims totalling £165 million. Burma became independent soon after the war and before any arrangement had been made to deal with war damage in Burma. The independent Burmese Government from the outset declined to introduce any war damage compensation scheme.
  Much damage and destruction of a similar nature had been suffered during the war in Malaya, and a rehabilitation scheme was introduced after the war and, in recognition of the limitations on Malaya's resources, His Majesty's Government made a contribution towards the cost. Representatives of British commercial interests who had suffered heavy losses through the "scorched earth" damage in Burma sought direct assistance from His Majesty's Government in 1947, but the Government took the view that any legal claim there might be to compensation would lie in the Burmese courts. Accordingly, suits were filed by some of the claimants in Rangoon High Court in December, 1947.
  By 1948, it appeared clear that no Burma war damage scheme was ever likely to be introduced similar to the one in Malaya. Further representations were then made to His Majesty's Government and the then Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed that the claimants had a case in equity for some measure of help. After a series of discussions in which it was made clear to Burma claimants that any sum offered would be for rehabilitation rather than for compensation and assessed on that basis a total of £10 million was offered as a final settlement. This was, in fact,

  1097
  the sum which had at that stage been made available to Malaya. This sum was later paid and distributed. Its distribution was not limited to those who had suffered the so-called "denial damage", but a very substantial share, about £4¾ million, did, in fact, fall to the Burmah Oil Company, the claimants concerned in the present action against the Crown.
  No undertaking was sought from the claimants that they should accept these moneys in full satisfaction of their claims—largely, I think, because it was thought undesirable to do anything which might prejudice claims which were still before the Burmese courts. It was, however, made abundantly plain that this was a final payment and that no further compensation or assistance was to be looked for. Since then successive Governments have rejected further pleas by the claimants. Both Mr. Butler and Mr. Macmillan, as Chancellors of the Exchequer in June, 1952, and in May, 1956, maintained the view that there was no case for further payments being made at the expense of the United Kingdom taxpayer.
  In 1960, the Burma High Court rejected the claims brought there upon the grounds, among others, that the military governor had acted under military necessity and in a national emergency and this gave rise to no claims in law. The claimants then brought actions against the Crown in the Scottish courts at the end of 1961. Her Majesty's Government of the day determined to resist them and, as hon. Members may be aware, took an important further step in giving an explicit warning to all the claimants in writing that, if the claims were successfully pursued, legislation would be introduced to indemnify the Crown and its agents—[HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."] Hon. Members say "disgraceful". Perhaps they will wait to hear the argument.
  Sir Kenneth Pickthom: Then do not read it so fast.
  Mr. MacDermot: The letter sent to them included the following sentences:
  "Her Majesty's Government are, moreover, satisfied that the claim made is not, in any event, one which ought to be met by the British taxpayer. Her Majesty's Government have accordingly decided, that, in the unlikely event of your company succeeding, legislation would be introduced to indemnify the Crown
  1098
  and its officers, servants, or agents against your company's claim."
  The present Government now take the same view and, the necessity having arisen as a result of the House of Lords judgment, are now proposing the appropriate legislation.
  Three specific criticisms have been raised in the letter sent by the Chairman of the Burmah Oil Company to many hon. Members and I, should like to comment on them. First, it is said that this is retrospective legislation, virtually unprecedented. This is not so. There are ample precedents for retrospective legislation to grant indemnity against acts done in the public interest in war or other states of emergency. A clear example was the General Act of Indemnity, passed after the First World War.
  An act of indemnity in such circumstances does not offend against the principle underlying the rule against retrospective legislation. That principle, I suppose, received its classical statement in a case familiar to first-year law students, called Phillips v. Eyre, where Mr. Justice Willes said:
  "retrospective laws are prima facie of questionable policy and contrary to the general principle that legislation by which the conduct of mankind is to be regulated ought, when introduced for the first time, to deal with future acts and ought not to change the character of past transactions carried on upon the faith of the then existing law."
  Of course, where one is dealing with acts done under the Royal Prerogative in the public interest, in an emergency, no question arises of changing the character of past proceedings carried on upon the face of the existing laws. In the present case the claimants did not blow up their installations because they believed that they would get compensation. The military commander did not order them to be blown up because he believed that the claimants would be entitled to compensation. In such a situation no one directs his mind to these questions. Their actions are dictated by military necessity.
  The only loss or liability incurred by the claimants on the faith of the existing law is their liability to costs in the current litigation and the Bill provides that this action can only be dismissed subject to such orders as to costs as the court shall see fit to impose. [HON. MEMBERS: "Generosity."] There is no question of generosity here at all. It is the law. I

  1099
  would advise the House, therefore, that even if the law had always been clearly understood by lawyers in the sense in which it has now been explained, there would have been full justification for making this legislation retrospective. The case is all the stronger when the effect of the legislation is merely to restore the law to what it was previously believed to be.
  Sir John Foster: By whom was it believed?
  Mr. MacDermot: I can answer that best by quoting a passage from the judgment of Lord Radcliffe in the case. [An HON. MEMBER: "A dissenting opinion."] Certainly a dissenting opinion, but not any less an authority on a matter of this kind. Lord Radcliffe said:
  "To begin with, one must clear the ground with one or two short propositions. There is not in our history any known case in which a Court of Law has declared such compensation to be due as of right. There is not any known instance in which a subject having suffered from such a taking, has instituted legal proceedings for the recovery of such compensation in a court of law. No payment has been identified as having been made by the Crown in recognition of a legal right to such compensation, irrespective of the institution of legal proceedings for its recovery. No text writer of authority has stated that there is this legal right under our law."
  If any hon. Member can fault that, perhaps he will do so in his speech.
  Secondly, the Chairman of the Burmah Oil Company contends that the Bill destroys the rights of the subject, deprived of his property by an act of State, to compensation. My answer to this is that even on the judgment of the majority in the House of Lords there are already a vast number of acts of destruction or damage which attract no right to compensation. Everything which falls within the class of battle damage, although it is the result of a deliberate act, carries no right to compensation. As I have said, if a building is blown up to serve as an obstacle to enemy tanks, the owner must bear the loss. All that the Bill does is to remove from a specially privileged position those persons whose property was destroyed not for the purposes of the immediate tactical situation, but for the wider strategic purposes of the war effort.
  In an era of total war, special property rights should not be preserved which are
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  based upon medieval conceptions of the nature of war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] This is not to say that no compensation should be paid in such cases. Of course it should, but in line with everyone else and to the extent which resources will permit. This is what has happened. The claimants have received substantial assistance, towards their rehabilitation, of £4¾ million. It is not right that they should now be singled out for more.
  Thirdly, it is said that the Bill sets an appalling example of contempt for constitutional principles to newer and less experienced Parliaments.
  Sir Spencer Summers: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman mean that the £4¾ million which the company has received was paid as compensation for the damage to the plant which we are now discussing?
  Mr. MacDermot: I have made clear in what I have said already that it was made clear at the time that it was not being paid as compensation but as rehabilitation.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Would not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it also goes rather further than that? The reason for the payment of the compensation which in my recollection was about £16 million altogether was primarily for the purpose of re-establishing Burma as a country, to rehabilitate the country and that it was only as part of that general rehabilitation that some part went to the Burmah Oil Company, which was one of the major industrial concerns engaged in such rehabilitation?
  Mr. MacDermot: The moneys were not paid to the Burmese Government. They were paid to the claimants and, I think, totalled over £10 million, nearer £11 million perhaps. They were for the purpose of re-establishing the installations themselves.
  I return to the claim that the Bill sets an appalling example to newer and less experienced Parliaments. The suggestion that the Bill is in some way confiscatory is simply not true. Its immediate application is to certain claims of British nationals in British courts and no question of breach of international law arises.

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  This is a purely domestic piece of legislation. Moreover, it relates to the exceptional situation of war. There is no more justification for citing the Bill as a precedent for confiscatory legislation or for actions for breach of international law t Ian there has been of citing the Act of Indemnity of 1920.
  The question before the House is an eminently practical one. Are we to contemplate now paying, for the benefit of the present shareholders of the claimant companies, damages which may total £20 million, £50 million, £80 million, or whatever it may be, in addition to the £42¾ million which they have already received before other equally meritorious claimants? Are they to be singled out, in our present circumstances, for specially favoured treatment? If, in some quixotic spirit, we are prepared to meet these claims, how are we to justify it to the hosts of other people who suffered ruin, who suffered the loss of their husbands or sons, the loss of their limbs and faculties who have had to make do with the level of war pensions which we are able to afford?
  The House has recently passed legislation to increase war pensions, but I do not suppose that there is one hon. Member who would not wish to give them more, if our economic circumstances would permit it. The common law measure of damages for the widow of a man killed at work or in a motor accident may far exceed the value of a war widow's pension. I cannot believe that the House will think it right that the shareholders of the Burmah Oil Company should receive full compensation by way of common law damages in priority to these other at least equally worthy war damage claimants. It is perhaps of interest—
  Sir Richard Thompson: I am following the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument with interest. Would he not agree that the war pension is the direct result of what he has called "battle damage" suffered by the people or their fathers concerned? What we are concerned with here is denial, a quite different thing. Surely he should not mislead the House into thinking that the two things are on all fours.
  Mr. MacDermot: I confess, approaching this matter as Treasury Minister rather than as lawyer, that I found the distinction of "battle damage" applied in this sphere wholly unreal. To answer the question I would ask, rhetorically: suppose a soldier was blown up by accident when these installations were being blown up? Would that have been battle damage or not? Under the terms of this decision it would not be battle damage. Of course, his entitlement to a war pension would be exactly the same as if he had been killed by an enemy bullet.
  It is perhaps of interest to see what faith or expectation the market had in the value of these claims or, indeed, the companies themselves had. It is clear that, at the outset, the companies only thought that they had these common law rights. Had they done so they would not have wasted years in negotiation with Her Majesty's Government and with the Burma Government. They would not have brought claims in the Burmese courts. They would have stood upon their rights and sued for them here.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: Was that not done on the advice of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was a member of the Labour Party?
  Mr. MacDermot: Sir Stafford Cripps, at the time, maintained the position which all Governments have maintained throughout—that they did not recognise any obligation here—and he advised them that if they wanted to pursue a legal claim they must do so in the Burmese courts.
  The only point which I am making—and it is surely sound—is that, as advised at the time, the companies appear not to have thought that they had a valid legal claim in our courts here or they would have pursued it. It was not until nearly 20 years after the event that, availing themselves of the longer 20-year limitation period under Scottish law, they brought their action in the Scottish courts. By the time they won the first round of their action in the House of Lords last spring the previous Government had already made it clear that, if necessary, they would introduce legislation to defeat the claim.
  This warning certainly seems to have been heeded by the market. When the

  1103
  House of Lords gave their decision there was no rise in the market price of the company's shares and, equally, when this Bill was published, a few days ago, not only did the shares not drop in value, but they actually rose by 3d., in line with a modest movement in oils on that day. When B.P. and Shell made a take-over bid to the stockholders of Burmah Oil, in 1963, the directors circulated the stockholders with an impressive summary of the assets and prospects of the company, and there was no mention of these claims.
  I mention these matters not to suggest that in themselves they provide any reason for retrospective legislation, but merely to show that this is not a case in which retrospective legislation will deprive the claimants of existing valuable assets. What it will do is to deprive them of a somewhat speculative prospect and one which it would be difficult to justify to the legion of other citizens who suffered at least as much as these claimants, without similar compensation.
  Sir Douglas Glover: That is the Treasury speaking, not the lawyer.
  Mr. MacDermot: The Bill is, in essence, a Bill of indemnity. It is my view, and I hope that it is a view which commends itself to the House, that a Bill of indemnity arising out of wartime action is a proper use of retrospective powers. Any Government has not only a right but a duty to bring forward such legislation in order to see that equity is done between different victims of the scourge of modern war. That duty does not diminish because the need for the legislation only first becomes known in consequence of a judicial decision 22 years after the event. An Act of indemnity is an Act to ensure social justice, and it is as such that I commend the Bill to the House.
  4.43 p.m.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Although this is one of the shortest Government Measures in my experience in the House, I think that it is also one of the most difficult. It is difficult, first of all, because the legal principle involved is complicated and far-reaching. I quite agree that the proposition that lawful acts done in exercise of the Prerogative should be the subjects of claims for compensation has long been disputed, certainly in English law, and even after the recent decision
  1104
  in the House of Lords there is some obscurity about it.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: On a point of order. I wonder, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether you can assist us. Mr. Speaker indicated that the Amendment standing in the names of some of my hon. Friends and myself would be selected. Am I to take it that the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) is moving that Amendment on our behalf?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): The hon. Member is mistaken. Mr. Speaker informed the House that the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) and the names of other hon. Members had been selected. The hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) will be called upon to move it, if he wishes, at some stage in the debate. The fact that an Amendment is selected does not mean that it will necessarily be moved immediately after the opening speech.
  Mr. Lloyd: The second reason why the Bill is difficult arises from the claims of the Burmah Oil Company and others. These claims were discussed with succeeding Administrations, when different Chancellors and Law Officers were in office. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has referred to Sir Stafford Cripps, Mr. Butler and Mr. Macmillan. They were also discussed when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer and in the time of my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). It is only fair to say that, rightly or wrongly, there was no difference of opinion between any of those in Government at these various times as to how to deal with this claim.
  There were four broad reasons, right or wrong. The first was that the proposition that any lawful act of State attracts compensation could not be accepted. The second was on the ground of equity—and the right hon. Member has referred to this to some extent: a man who voluntarily denies his property to the enemy gets no compensation, but the man who does so after receiving an order to do so gets compensation. There would be a feeling of a certain lack of equity in picking out those who acted only upon receiving instructions. I am giving these as reasons, right or wrong.

  1105
  The third reason was the belief that had the installations been left intact for the Japanese to take, they would most certainly have been destroyed later. The fourth reason was the Treasury view—and one knows how unpopular the Treasury view is about the dispersal of public funds—that the sums of money involved in accepting the legal proposition, which I gave as the first point, were enormous because of the circumstances of war in which this kind of damage had been done.
  The figures, as I recollect them, were that the claims from Burma—not the claims by this company alone—were £100 million and that even more might be involved in claims from other areas. The prospect of raising by taxation or funding sums of this magnitude daunted each Chancellor of the Exchequer in turn. In addition, there was the general consideration which the hon. Member mentioned: when one is dealing with war damage claims of this sort the way to deal with them is either by ex-gratia payment within the national means, or by a modified scale of compensation.
  The arrangement which was made by Sir Stafford Cripps was, I quite agree, not put forward as compensation, but as money for rehabilitation purposes, and I think it involved just over £10 million altogether, of which —4·7 million went to this company.
  Sir J. Foster: My right hon. and learned Friend spoke of the reasons "right or wrong". Will he tell the House whether all the reasons were right or were wrong in his view; or, which were right in his view and which were wrong in his view?
  Mr. Lloyd: I do not think that I am called upon to debate this matter. I am giving circumstances in which the Government came to this decision and I am not arguing—although I could argue at some length if my hon. and learned Friend wished—the merits of each of these points. I am trying to give the reasons which led each Administration in turn to reach this conclusion.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington) rose—
  Mr. Lloyd: I do not intend to speak at great length, but I want to indicate a certain view to the Government, and I think that it would be more profitable
  1106
  for the House to hear this than for me to enter into this argument.
  It was on this basis that Sir Stafford Cripps put forward the suggestion of £10 million compensation, and because of the views held by the Government, when the proceedings were instituted by the company and before they got beyond the preliminary stages, it was thought right to send a warning letter to the company. Then, as the House knows, after this expression of intent the matter was litigated upon. The decision was adverse to the Crown on the preliminary point of law.
  Now we are faced with the Bill. It is impossible to deny that the Bill has raised strong feelings of opposition, both inside and outside the House. It is said that a successful litigant is being unfairly treated. It is said that, in fact, the claims are of nothing like the magnitude which had been expected. It is said that the international repercussions of the Bill have not been seriously considered. Those arguments all relate to the part of the Bill which concerns the past.
  With regard to the future, there are different considerations, because, in the view of some of us, it would only mean putting on to the Statute Book for the future what for a long time has been thought to be the common law of England.
  My conclusion is that the Government should give further thought to these matters. Having been a party to the decision to warn the company, I feel that I myself cannot honourably vote against the Second Reading. But, if the Bill gets a Second Reading, I hope that the Government will examine again in more detail what is involved, because, if my information is correct, the sums now at stake are very much smaller than they were thought to be.
  I hope that the Government will consider, even at this stage, whether this rather disagreeable matter cannot be disposed of by negotiation. I do not think that this approach has been considered up to now. It is possible that the matter could be dealt with in this way. Then we could consider on its merits the proposition to establish the law in the sense desired for the future.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: Would my right hon. and learned Friend mind answering this

  1107
  question? He has made a suggestion which I am sure will be very welcome to a large number of Members in the House. Would he not agree that there is one thread running through the opinions of both Lord Reid and Lord Radcliffe, namely, that compensation in respect of such damage by tradition should always be paid? It is clear from the opinions of both learned Law Lords that the company was wrong in its rather extravagant ideas of the damages it could get. This appears, for instance, at page 7 of Lord Reid's opinion.
  Therefore, it is clear that a reasonable sum of money, which would not run into anything like the figures originally suggested, might bring about an accommodation which would enable us not to have on the Statute Book an Act which might be positively harmful in the future. Would not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that that expresses the sort of view he has in mind—something which would ensure a satisfactory solution between the company and the Government and a due respect for the decision of the House of Lords?
  Mr. Lloyd: I believe that there is a reason for re-examination, because the original payment was made for rehabilitation purposes and was never intended to be, or described as, a form of compensation for the company. Had one been dealing with claims on anything like the scale put forward, it would not have been very profitable to suggest this, but my belief is that, as the amounts involved are so much less, it should be possible to dispose of the matter by negotiation and get a rather disagreeable business out of the way.
  4.53 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: My hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary is right in saying that some information has been circulated about the Bill on behalf of the Burmah Oil Company. The information was put temperately. It was certainly not put with undue or unfair controversy. It was presented decently, with some observations of The Times, which I read with sympathy.
  The House should be very careful about passing retrospective legislation. We are over-generous in indemnifying Members of Parliament when they fail
  1108
  to understand the law. We have generally accepted, subject to the usual party controversy, that it may be necessary sometimes retrospectively to deal with gross evasions of tax of a deliberate kind which make use of some discovery of an error or a lack of understanding in the revenue laws. But we are reluctant to pass retrospective legislation.
  We should be still more reluctant to pass a Bill which is retrospective back to about Edward II, or Henry VI. We should examine it very carefully before we do so. Although this is not the time to make Committee points, I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will have a look at the wording of the Bill, which seems to me to be unnecessarily wide and which might provide law which would restrict other cases and reduce the ambit of the law generally.
  It has been said with some horror that the Treasury Solicitor wrote to the plaintiffs and said, "If you pursue your legal remedy to its conclusion and win, which we do not expect you to do, we shall pass an Act to rob you of the fruits of victory". At first sight, that was a very unpleasant letter, and I am sure that the Treasury Solicitor thought that it was a very unpleasant duty to perform. How much more disgraceful would it have been had he not said that, knowing what he did.
  It was certainly not his fault. It was clearly his duty, if he knew that that was the likely consequence, to give the plaintiffs a fair warning of what was in the mind of Her Majesty's then advisers, Members now sitting on the opposite side of the house. Clearly, it was upon the instructions of the then legal advisers to the Crown that that course was adopted.
  Mr. Lubbock: Should not this intention have been notified to the plaintiffs by the Government of the day and not by civil servants, if that was the Government's intention?
  Mr. Hale: That is exactly what was done. The Treasury Solicitor is certainly not a civil servant in that sense. He exercises quasi-judicial functions on behalf of the Government. He was told what the facts were and he thought that it was his duty, as I am sure that it was, to write to the plaintiffs. Once he knew of the facts, he was a party to the litigation. After all, nobody has ever objected

  1109
  to a plaintiff or a defendant making full disclosure of relevant facts in his possession. It is clear that it was the Treasury Solicitor's duty to do this, however unpleasant it was.
  Sir J. Foster: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the Lord President of the Inner House that this was an improper letter for the Treasury Solicitor to write to the lay client on the other side? Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the Lord President's statement that such an improper letter would not deter the Scottish courts from endeavouring to arrive at the justice of the case?
  Mr. Hale: I do not know the Scottish procedure. I do not know whether solicitors were acting. Normally, such a letter would pass between solicitor and solicitor. However, I should not have thought that that was a point with which we need concern ourselves today. I am concerned to make it clear that, in my view, the Treasury Solicitor did only what was eminently proper in the circumstances, in the light of the information in his possession.
  Something has been said about damage. The action of the Burmah Oil Company in taking this case to the House of Lords has given us the good fortune of being able to read some extremely able and erudite opinions on matters which, as my hon. and learned Friend said, have never been decided before and, indeed, on matters which the court itself makes clear have not been decided now. For some reason, which may be deep down in the body of Scottish law, or it may have been by agreement between the parties, the matter was argued in the first instance on the basis of the pleadings.
  There was no contest and there was no argument on damage. The Crown was concerned to say, "This is the sort of claim we could never admit. We do not believe that it exists. Let us argue the matter of law in the first instance and decide whether such a law exists. Let us take the view of the court on whether some effect should be given to that law when the evidence has been heard as to the amount and nature of the damage".
  Their Lordships confessed that they were in some difficulty about saying whether it was a matter of Scottish law or of Burmese law, or whether they had jurisdiction in relation to Burmese law
  1110
  now that Burma had become independent. Indeed, it is clear that such a claim could not have been made in any circumstances in any of our courts had it not been for the Act passed by a Labour Government after the damage was done which was designed to secure that a postman should not be deprived of his damages because his employer was the Crown, because the Crown Proceedings Act, 1947, removed the old procedure by tortuous petition of right in pursuance of the principle "Let right be done". It seems that there is a curious lacuna in the Scottish law which enabled the plaintiffs to bring the action there, they having a registered office in Edinburgh. This could not have been done from London because, as I understand it, the action would have been well statute-barred here in any event.
  I do not like Statutes of Limitation, but 20 years after a war is a very long time to adumbrate a completely new principle. Their Lordships, in their interesting and erudite judgments, said, "There is no law upon this matter." We have to go back to Grotius. We have to consider the acknowledged authorities upon international law, which, of course, never existed, and, in considering the acknowledged authorities on international law, one is wholly debarred from taking into account the fact that a modern state of war has created wholly new circumstances. Indeed, the development of the modern conception of the philosophy of war has made these learned writers a little archaic and unreal, however brilliant they may be in the adumbration of first principles.
  We are dealing now with a war in which whole towns were destroyed by mistake. It is a commonplace theory in France that the destruction of their homes was caused by American or British planes dropping bombs intended for the enemy. We are dealing with a war in which whole countries were laid waste. I would sympathise with the Burmah Oil Corporation in this respect at least, that it has not been treated so generously as the Krupp empire which is now being permitted to dominate the economics of Western Europe and is one of the unhappy arguments against the Common Market. I have never wanted to pursue a policy of venom against the vanquished. I was against the war trials and said so, though perhaps not so quickly as I should have done. But for a dozen

  1111
  years it has been the declared policy of the Conservative Government to break up the Krupp empire as a matter of justice, and only recently the then Prime Minister said it was their policy.
  I come to the question of damages. As I read the judgments—and they were admittedly obiter dicta—it was clearly foreshadowed that their Lordships might well have said, "If there is any damage you have got to estimate it at the time the damage was done". The value of those oil installations was absolutely nil. For what sum would the Burmah Oil Company have sold those oil installations at the moment the damage was done? They were to be occupied by the Japanese in a day or two, and they would have been operated by the Japanese. If the Japanese won the war the company would not see the installations again. If the Japanese lost the war, they would destroy them on their way out. The amount involved in this case, therefore, is very slight.
  I came here in 1945, not so young as all that, but still young enough to be naĨve and to have ideals. I am now addressing the House as an elderly cynic, with not so many illusions. But I came prepared to support the proposition that there should be some compensation for loss. I remember that at election meeting after election meeting I was interviewing mothers who said, "We do not want profit out of the death of our son, but our son was conscripted. He was ordered to go and be killed. He was our Ishmael. He was the man who supported the family. He was the lad who might well have been expected to give us a little better standard of living".
  I brought this matter before the House and I appealed for support from hon. Members. I got some—not much. I cannot remember now whether, in the end, these people got a few shillings a week or not. I do, however, remember long negotiations in which it was said, "We cannot assume this responsibility." One hon. Member said, "If you apply to 'Vattel' you will find that the destruction of a son in battle is quite different. You might get compensation because you got shot for neurasthenia in the First World War, because that was not in battle."
  The public would not allow any Government to say 20 years afterwards that
  1112
  we shall compensate this wealthy and prosperous company because it had the ingenuity or good fortune to have an office in Scotland and bring a claim there, having failed in the Burmese courts. Whatever one's principles, there is a pragmatism in this House and one has to try to give the impression that justice is being done.
  We cannot, day after day, turn our backs on the crippled and the injured and then say, "All those who did not know about this, all those who never read 'Vattel' and who lost their houses by accident are statute-barred; they cannot claim." But this great company, which acted very properly at the time, and which, as I understand it, has had pretty substantial compensation already in the way of payment for replacement, cannot now maintain this claim before the bar of public opinion.
  The House is compelled, reluctantly and unhappily, to pass the sort of Measure which it would have wished to avoid.
  5.6 p.m.
  Sir Spencer Summers: I am not a lawyer, and to that extent I may be under some handicap, but, at any rate, I think there are considerations to be taken into account which concern the layman as much, if not more than, lawyers.
  This is a thoroughly objectionable Bill, and I would say that if, as a result of another outcome of the General Election, this Bill were being promoted by my own party. There are three main reasons for taking exception to the Bill. First, it seeks to establish the dominance of the Executive over the judiciary. I have been brought up to believe that one of the safeguards of freedom and democracy in this country was the independence of the judiciary. But if, as a result of the whole processes of law, ending up in a final judgment in the House of Lords, their verdict is to be upset, where is the independence of the judiciary?
  Secondly, to pass a Bill changing the law because of what has been found to be the state of the law would not of itself constitute an objectionable feature; but, having found what the law is, the objectionable feature is to seek to put the clock back and make it retrospective for a great many years.

  1113
  Thirdly, there is the undoubted effect of the precedent which this Bill sets, which other countries may well treat as a precedent and which we may well seriously regret.
  This is called the War Damage Bill, and I think it is a most misleading title. There may be technical reasons for its use, but at any rate we are not here concerned with war damage. We are surely concerned with damage brought about by what, for simplicity's sake, one calls denial. If these installations in Burma had been damaged by war as such, the case for compensation would not have been brought forward because, as I understand it, the case rests upon the fact that the destruction took place on the orders of His Majesty's Government.
  I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) said about the scale of compensation which might well arise were the law to be permitted to take its course. What he said about the value of the installations at the time completely shattered the argument of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that one of the fears in the Government's mind was that so large would be the claim that no Government could tolerate it on behalf of the taxpayers. I repeat that I suffer from the handicap of being no lawyer, but I understand that in establishing the law as it did, the court made no statement about the scale of compensation which in its view was likely to be justified.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I intervene only to clear one point. Is the hon. Member saying to the House that if the damage was small the Bill would be wrong but if the damage was high the Bill would be right? How does he justify that?
  Sir S. Summers: The hon. Member has no right to put innuendoes into what I said. What I am saying quite clearly is that when the Government seek to justify a Bill of this nature on the ground that if it is not passed there may be an intolerable scale of compensation claimed, that justification for the Bill ha s been completely destroyed by the hon. Member for Oldham, West, arguing, in my view correctly, that it may well prove to be the case, if opportunity is
  1114
  given, that the compensation is very small indeed.
  Mr. Hale: The amount claimed was rather more than £30 million. This was in the statement of claim and this figure was never argued because the court was not called upon at that stage to go into that matter. It was £30 million with accumulated interest, which would bring it up no doubt to the figure given by my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary. If the advice tendered to the Crown by the advisers of the last Government has been proved wrong in one respect it might have been proved wrong in the other, and this was a question of £80 million or so.
  Sir S. Summers: The hon. Member made clear that in his view the scale of compensation payable would be very small. He cannot seek to undo the impression made by his speech by talking now about the scale of claims which the company has made.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
  Sir S. Summers: The hon. Member may have a later opportunity to speak. I want to make my speech in my own way.
  We are therefore not concerned in the House at the moment with what compensation will be paid. We are concerned solely whether the right established to compensation shall be upheld or not. This right though upheld may prove in the event of relatively little value. No one can tell at this stage whether that right will be extremely valuable or not. A great many comparable claims in a similar field, we are told, are statutebarred. I find it difficult to believe that if the scale of compensation in this case is reduced to very modest proportions because of the value at a time of imminent destruction, it is likely that similar considerations would apply to any cases that might arise. If it is said that here a very dangerous precedent is being set because of the effect on the taxpayer, it is a completely illusory argument.
  It is suggested that there can be nothing dreadful in seeking to establish the law as everybody thought it was. I suggest that this proposal made for the Bill is a most dangerous proposition. I seem to remember hearing discussions as to what it was thought the law was when the

  1115
  Rookes v. Barnard case was brought to public notice, and to the surprise of a great many people the law was found to be quite different from what they thought it was. If this precedent is to be accepted that it is a proper thing to put back the law to what people thought it was at that stage, what is to happen to the damages which Mr. Rookes obtained in the courts?
  If a situation of this kind is created, we are opening the door to all sorts of retrospective opportunities to put back the law not only to what people may allegedly have thought it to be but to what the Government of the day want it to be. It seems to me therefore that we are treading on very dangerous ground on this matter and that we are striking at the very roots of the rule of law.
  Quite clearly, there are plausible arguments why such a Bill should be brought forward. and it is only right that we should pay attention to those arguments In the first place, I have no doubt that the Government of the day took the view that as it was very unlikely that the litigation would emerge in the form that it has done they need not worry very much about it. That advice has been proved to be very unsound. Secondly, it has been argued whether it is ethical to consider compensation in a case where the damage is created on the instructions of Her Majesty's Government which would not have been payable had it been created by British bombers or enemy bombers.
  As I understand it, the argument runs that it is quite untenable to consider a difference of that kind, but in describing the various alternatives which he listed, the Financial Secretary omitted to mention another alternative, namely the acquiring of property for use not as a barrier against tanks. If property is taken for use I have never heard it suggested that anyone should be denied compensation in such a case. It is therefore unreasonable to assert that the only alternative situations that could arise are those where no compensation would be payable.
  Mr. Dick Taverne: Is not this a point which cannot be made against the Bill? I am talking about the early part of the Bill which deals with payment of compensation in respect of damage to or destruction of property. There is
  1116
  therefore no danger of infringement of the right to compensation for property acquired, which seems different from property destroyed.
  Sir S. Summers: I will not go over the ground again, but I think that the hon. Member did not quite understand the point which I was seeking to make. My point was that in praying in aid alternative types of destruction which could arise when no compensation is payable, it is unreasonable to leave out of account other effects on property where compensation would be paid.
  I was impressed by the fact that even those judges who could not bring themselves to find in accordance with the majority view that there was a case at common law said nevertheless that compensation, in their view, should be paid. I said at the beginning of my speech that I think that this is a thoroughly objectionable Bill. The fact that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) suggested that there was scope for negotiation, thus rendering the Bill totally unnecessary, seems to me to be strengthened by the idea that the Government are urged by dissenting lawyers to pay compensation, whether or not a case is established at law.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Elwyn Jones): Does the hon. Gentleman consider the sum of £4¾ million paid in 1948 to be a sum of compensation at all? Secondly, in the circumstances of our country in 1948, does he not consider it to be a fair measure of compensation for the rehabilitation of this plant in 1948?
  Sir S. Summers: I do not regard the payment of £4¾ million as in any sense compensation in the context of this claim, and neither ought the word "compensation" to appear in the justification for its payment at all. It was made quite clear at the time that the £4¾ million as part of a larger total was paid in order to rehabilitate Burma and had no relation whatever to the loss of property of the shareholders of the Burmah Oil Company.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: Would not my hon. Friend agree also that Sir Stafford Cripps, who was Chancellor of the Exchequer, was encouraging

  1117
  the company eventually to go to Burma and fight the case out?
  Sir S. Summers: That may well be, but, in 1965, we are concerned not so much with the advice which Sir Stafford Cripps may have given at the time but with the way in which we want Parliament to react to the findings of the House of Lords in a case on appeal.
  I suspect that, with the aid of the Government Whips, notwithstanding the alliance, no doubt temporary, of the Liberal Party with some of us, the Bill may have its Second Reading tonight. I shall vote against it, but, if I am disappointed and it is carried, I hope that in another place second thoughts will prevail and time will be given by rejection in that House for negotiations to take place to deal with the claim. If this proves not to be so, we shall, I fear, have set a very damaging precedent which most of us will live to regret.
  5.21 p.m.
  Mr. Dick Taverne: It seems to me that there are two quite separate points in the Bill. The first is the reform of the law, brought about by Clause 1(1). About this part of the Bill, there can be comparatively little doubt. I was impressed by the argument advanced by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, that it is a somewhat illogical distinction to say that compensation is payable as of right for a claim in denial and not for battle damage. Of the examples which he gave, the one which impressed me was that, if the property had been voluntarily destroyed, there would have been no claim, but, if it had been destroyed on orders, there would be a claim. In addition, it seems to me that one cannot say that there would definitely have been a claim if, for instance, demolition charges had been left behind and these had been set off immediately after the Japanese had occupied the installations.
  There is clearly merit in the view that, in the exceptional circumstances of war, the losses which are incurred should be considered as a whole, the recompense should be made on general principles of equity, and there should not be special classes of property which qualify for compensation and others which do not for destruction in wartime. Therefore, I
  1118
  feet that the first part of the Bill, Clause 1(1), can be supported without any qualm.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: I think that the hon. Gentleman has overlooked one aspect of the matter, the point about "in contemplation of" the outbreak of war. We all take the point as regards battle damage and the point that it may be illogical if it is immediately prior to the battle; but the Bill goes a good deal further and deals with circumstances in contemplation of or in preparation for war. Supposing, for instance, someone were, in the next few weeks, invited to destroy his plantations in order to prevent the advance of Sukarno's troops, should we have an Act of Parliament providing that an order for destruction in those circumstances ought not as a matter of law to give rise to compensation?
  Mr. Taverne: I should like to think a little more about that. It seems to me to be a perfectly good Committee point which could be considered at that stage. Generally speaking, on the first part of the Bill, I have no qualms, and I do not share the view of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) that one cannot, in effect, draw a real distinction between the acquisition of property for which payment can be made and the destruction of property which should be treated as war damage. On that part of the case, it seems to me that the opinion of Lord Radcliffe is clearly to be preferred.
  My main doubts related to the second part of Clause 1, and I understand these to be the doubts of most hon. Members opposite. When I first read the letter in The Times from the hon. and learned Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster), I was horrified to think that legislation of this kind was coming forward. I could not understand what the present Government were doing, and neither, for that matter, could I understand what the previous Government had been doing, because I should readily concede that they were as much concerned with the rule of law as we are. My objections were not, to some extent, the same as those raised by the hon. Member for Aylesbury. It does not seem to me that any House of Lords judgment should be sacrosanct. If one thinks that the law has been one thing, and one likes that particular situation, and then, to one's

  1119
  regret, a completely different decision is reached by the House of Lords, there is nothing sacrosanct about a House of Lords decision. The whole of law reform would be impossible if one treated every decision of the House of Lords as sacrosanct. The point which arises, of course, is the question not just of reversing a decision but making the reversal retrospective.
  The other point which does not seem to me to be one which ought to colour or influence the decision to be reached here is the one about the amount of damages, in so far as one does not know definitely that the damages will be slight. The right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) thought that, perhaps, we should reconsider this because there had been dicta in the House of Lords that the damages would be slight. One cannot be certain what the outcome of the claim for these damages would be.
  Sir J. Foster: Does that mean that, if the damages were large, the hon. Gentleman would take a different view? He said that one should not pay attention to the point if the damages were slight. Should one pay attention if the damages were large?
  Mr. Taverne: Perhaps I expressed myself badly. Obviously, if the damages were enormous, leading to a great increase in taxation, this would not be something which one could disregard. But what I meant to say was that one should not assume that the damages will be slight, and one could not say that this Bill should be allowed through because the damages would be slight or that one should not be concerned about the Bill because it covered only a trivial amount.
  After I had looked at the matter further, it occurred to me that there is much more to be said for the second part of the Bill than I had at first realised. My doubts have not been entirely removed, but it seems to me that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary made a point of considerable substance. In normal circumstances, this question would have been dealt with by one of the Acts of Indemnity passed at the end of the war. If an Act of Indemnity had been passed at the end of the war and we had said that no claims for compensation of this kind would be considered, no member
  1120
  of the public and no Member of the House could have objected to such an Act. What, therefore, is the difference between passing an Act of Indemnity in 1945 and making clear that one intends not to pay damages and saying that one regards the legal position as such that one need not pass an Act of Indemnity and reversing retrospectively—an Act of Indemnity also would have been retrospective—a decision of the House of Lords some 19 years later? The only difference is that there has been a legal decision in between, which there would not have been in the other circumstances. I agree—and this is one of the reasons why I still have some doubts about this—that it looks bad. But in substance I do not feel that there is any great difference of principle involved in the two situations. If one makes it quite clear that one takes a certain view of the law and intends to see that this is the view that prevails, then it seems to me that there is no real difference between passing an Act, on the one hand, or saying, "We will pass an Act if necessary but we do not think it necessary" and passing it 20 years later.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine Mr. A. J. Irvine (Liverpool, Edge Hill) rose—
  Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman who has given way must indicate to whom he has given way.
  Mr. Taverne: I thought that the hon. and learned Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) was the first to rise.
  Mr. Irvine: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. Is it part of his argument, to which I am listening with great care, that the circumstance that litigation has taken place should really be regarded as a circumstance which makes any difference to the merits of the argument?
  Mr. Taverne: It certainly looks worse, and I still have my doubts about it. However, I retain an open mind on the subject. If one looks at the principle of it and if it has been made clear what view is taken by the Government and if it is quite clear that an Act of Indemnity is something that would have been passed if considered necessary, then it does not seem to me that the difference in principle is very great.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does not my hon. Friend think that his argument may possibly be reinforced by bearing in mind that an Act of Indemnity if passed at the time when he contemplated could only have been passed on the assumption that the law was as the House of Lords subsequently found it to be, as otherwise there would be nothing to be indemnified against? Therefore, there is no difference in principle in what my hon. Friend is arguing.
  Mr. Taverne: I take that point. Every Act of Indemnity takes away rights which people have and it seems to me that it is not only Acts of Indemnity which have provided precedents for the kind of thing done in this Bill. The fact that there are precedents does not necessarily mean that one must always pay attention to them. I was interested to see that there was no very great commotion in the House when it 1954 the Wireless and Telegraphy (Validation of Charges) Act was passed. That was an Act in which certain charges which had been exacted by the Post Office were retrospectively made legal, and as part of that Act it was provided that proceedings started after a certain date, before the passing of the Act and More the introduction of the Second Reading of the Bill, should be null and void and that any order made in the proceedings should be rescinded on the application of the parties. It further provided that any moneys paid over as a result of an order made should be repaid. That was far more retrospective in its effect than the legislation at present before the House.
  Of course, there have been a number of Acts apart from Indemnity Acts after the First World War which have dealt with the principle of retrospective legislation and have taken away rights retrospectively. There was one Act in 1925, whose title I cannot remember, and in 1953 the Enemy Property Act. It is not a new principle which is being introduced but it is certainly one which we should regard with the gravest suspicion.
  On reflection, I am impressed by the arguments advanced. It seems to me that the essential difference of principle between dealing retrospectively with the House of Lords decision and dealing retrospectively with the position of 1945 is not such a fundamental question of principle. There are, of course, undesirable
  1122
  aspects of it. I agree with some of the points made—for instance, that it looks an unfortunate precedent for other countries—but until I am convinced by hon. Members opposite to the contrary I propose to support the Second Reading of the Bill.
  5.35 p.m.
  Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: Before I begin, and while I remember it, I should like to say that I do very much hope that there is no risk on this occasion of our being asked to send the Committee stage of the Bill upstairs, because it is very difficult on all arguments on either side to doubt that this is a deeply constitutional Bill going to the root of interest that any subject has either in his property or his reasonable expectations. I feel that if it were not to be taken on the Floor of the House, that would amount to a scandal.
  I have one other prefatory remark to make and am a little surprised that someone else has not already made it. I hold a very few oil shares, not in this particular company, but as they are all intertwined with each other's holdings it may conceivably be that I have some slight commercial interest in the matter, and I thought that that perhaps ought to be stated.
  I was encouraged a little by my hon. Friend below the Gangway who, I think, has so far been the only lay speaker, and who seemed to me to make the clearest speech so far. That encouraged me a little to forget my father's teaching that the only men worse than lawyers are forecastle lawyers and to set up a little as a forecastle lawyer myself. Although we know that we are all taken to know law, I hope the indulgence of the House will be extended to individual Members who can take it for granted, those who are not proficient and learned in the subject, that when they address the House they will enjoy the utmost patience.
  "The appropriate legislation"—these are words from the Treasury Bench to which I hope to return; but I would like the House at this stage to observe that this legislation goes a great deal further than anything which could be said to be the appropriate way of dealing with the House of Lords decision, if that were all we wanted to do, and to remember that the whole of this discussion really goes a

  1123
  great deal deeper. It was an error of the Financial Secretary, I think.
  Then, he referred to the jurists; he did not quote Bynkersholk, who was always my favourite among these chaps, but he did quote Grotius, and I think, if I may say so, he got them all wrong: if the hon. Gentleman will read the judgments—he will find that in one or more than one—he will see that the learned judge made it quite clear that he assumed these civilians were not endeavouring to state the international law but the minimum of municipal law necessary to make a State civilised. That was the point of those citations.
  If I may, I would like to relate the events behind this to the House, not because I think I am better informed than anyone else but because I hope to be corrected if I get any of them wrong and if they are correctly stated they seem to me to amount to an argument, and I think, really an unanswerable argument. A person, a corporate person, a subject of the Crown, believed, and was competently advised, that it had a proper claim upon the Crown for property taken in time of war and under stress of war. What, therefore, did it do? What must it naturally have done? It had recourse to the proper courts.
  There has been some talk by hon. Members opposite as though there were something disgraceful about it having recourse to the Scots courts, just as there has been some talk as though it were disgraceful that the maximum claim should have been made. There is nothing disgraceful about either, and in that I find support in the judgments of many or most of the 10 judges who have considered the case.
  In the first hearing in Scotland Lord Kilbrandon decided—and the later judges agreed—that in Scots or English law, whether the taking was to destroy or to use or enjoy, in general the taking of that property by the Crown had been subject to compensation. But, at the same time, he issued the warning that his decision said nothing as to the value of such right to compensation.
  It seems to me that the dimensions concerned, both of value in what was destroyed and of resources which the aggrieved party had and which might be held to be so great that it needed no
  1124
  more, and dimensions of time involved, especially when one considers that most of that time used has been time used upon the advice of Her Majesty's Government—in all this it seems to me that we make this case a good deal clearer if we leave out any question dealing more or less with the dimensions, of time or money or resources.
  Incidentally, I would add in the dimension of sympathy. There are a good many of us on both sides of this as of other questions who are as keenly, and with as good right, aware of the infliction of bereavement by war and the infliction of damage to limb, and the use of that argument in this connection was a mistake.
  But to return now to my narrative at the point following Lord Kilbrandon's decision. The case went to the Inner House at Edinburgh, the highest court in Scotland. That court dismissed the action, but I would be grateful to my two pupils on the Treasury bench—they are both ex-pupils of mine—
  The Attorney-General: But not in the Temple.
  Sir K. Pickthorn: I am myself a pupil of the Temple and have been for rather over 50 years. That is one of the reasons why I ventured on this; but that was an interruption. I should be very grateful if my two pupils would listen to me on this point particularly, and on all later points particularly.
  The Inner House dismissed the action. Lord Clyde said that, as a matter of general principle, a subject deprived of property by Prerogative is entitled to be compensated, with the exception of actual battle. I think that I have his words clear and I think that I am right in saying—hon. Members will find it most easily by looking up what was said by Lord Reid, who quoted them—that the other four judges in the Inner House agreed with Lord Clyde.
  They all said, some of them in almost identical words, that it was necessary to decide against Lord Kilbrandon, but that it was highly regrettable and that as a matter of general principle there was no doubt that subjects had a right to expect compensation except in the case of what was called "battle damage".
  Mr. Hale Mr. Hale rose—
  Mr. J. T. Price Mr. J. T. Price (Westhoughton) rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): Order. I imagine that the right hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pick-thorn) is giving way to the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price).
  Mr. J. T. Price: I shall not be a moment. The right hon. Gentleman is arguing very eloquently, assuming that there is an abstract right to damages, which is supported by the authorities quoted in the debate. Supposing it exists, it is surely only on the assumption that the Power which exercised the right, or is granted the right under its constitutional practice, won the war. It would be necessary for the Government to win the war for the right to be exercised by anybody. I think that that is a very important consideration. If the Government had lost the war this argument would not have been taking place today.
  Sir K. Pickthorn: I am quite clear about that. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman his been reading the judgments, because that was made clear in more than one of them. My immediate point is that it is no use citing even the dismissive judgments as if they were deciding that there was not a right of compensation.
  The company lost in the Inner House in Edinburgh. It then went to the House of Lords and there it won by three to two. Lord Radcliffe was one of the minority and has been most relied upon by the spokesman on the Treasury Bench. Lord Radcliffe decided against Burmah Oil. He said, towards the end of his judgment:
  "None of this is an argument against the propriety or indeed urgent desirability of the State providing compensation."
  He then, or rather a little later, went on:
  "That there is something which may, by a permissible transfer of language, be called a public law which requires the careful attention of the State to damage that is inflicted, and calls on it to make such provision for compensation as the recognised equity in favour of compensation demands, I would be glad to agree."
  So all five of the judges in the House of Lords did not think that the law was what right hon. and hon. Members opposite now assume that everybody thought the law to have been until, for
  1126
  some odd reason, so many Law Lords all over the United Kingdom suddenly decided that it was something quite different.
  If I may indulge in a little more learning, let hon. Members opposite look at what Lord Dunedin said in the case of De Keyser, long before this case. It is quite untrue to pretend that what the Government are now doing is putting the law back to what all competent persons thought that it already was.
  That is my statement of the facts as I understand them. I would make a very short commentary upon them. I am in my fifty-second year as a law student. I do not claim to be that much ahead of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who quoted from his first-year knowledge of what retrospection means: I think that it means a little more than the Eyre case proves. I think that there is a little further objection to retrospection than that: surely the fundamental objection to retrospection is that it is legal fiction: it is pretending that the law was at some date what everyone knows that it was not. I should be the last to be purist enough to claim that there can be no fiction in the law. Surrounded with learned hon. gentlemen as I am, that would be an absurd paradox. But there is a critical percentage of fiction in a system of law which, when passed by 1 or 2 per cent., results in a much debased system of law.
  The question here is what is now the limit of retrospection. I did not wholly understand—and I beg hon. Gentlemen not to tell me now—the part of the argument about indemnity, who was to be indemnified or not indemnified about what. Of course, it is true that some kinds of retrospection are less tiresome of less wicked than others, but at the best they are all necessary evils. Someone said here in debate the other day that the Tories did not mind retrospection when it was to give something to someone. That is quite untrue so far as I am concerned, but it is less wicked, less vicious, retrospection which is, rightly or wrongly, intended to help to ease a human situation than when it is intended to have the opposite effect.
  What now—and this is the first and great objection to the course of events which I have just recited—is the limit to retrospection? Incidentally, when will

  1127
  learned hon. Gentlemen learn that, when they are talking about what is, admittedly, a series of necessary evils, they do not strengthen their case every time they can spot something else which they can call a precedent; they weaken it. When talking about necessary evils, the fewer of them, the better, and every new admitted one, the worse. This is not a case in which precedent will help the arguments of hon. and learned Gentlemen in the least.
  What is now the limit to what retrospection may be expected to do, without everybody getting up and howling and all the benches here being crowded to 10 o'clock, or to whenever we choose to go on, knowing that we shall always have a full House? Who now is to say that any kind of retrospection is vicious when there can be retrospection to deny three of the highest courts, including the very highest, and to change the decision of judges who have all admitted a great degree of justice and equity on the side of the claimants, although some of them were not able to give them a judicial decision?
  After all this, after the passage of 23 years, half of them wasted from the demandants' point of view on the advice of Her Majesty's Government, after the attempt of Her Majesty's Government to stop the pursuit of the cause, which I still cannot think was right—and, incidentally, one of the Scottish judges said, for the benefit of solicitors on the other side of the House, that it was manifestly and plainly against all the etiquette of Scottish solicitors; I do not know whether English solicitors are the same—who now, in view of all that, when the Government legislate not only in order retrospectively to upset a decision, but also to alter a large branch of our law, the common law which relates to compensation expectable from the Crown for property damaged or taken by the Crown, a very important part of the law and, for many generations, one of the most important parts—and hon. Members who use the term "medieval" as a term of abuse had better consult the Encyclopaedia Britannica or something else within their reach and look up "purveyance" and find out what the law was then, for the common law is not worse when it is old, for its claim to respect lies in its age.
  1128
  Who is to say where the limit is? Retrospection has been used not only to do what is alleged to be necessary in this case, but a great deal more—to alter the common law widely. A little time ago, we did not know what the common law was. Perhaps some of us guessed, but only if we guessed differently from the official lawyers. One of the oldest principles when altering the law is that one should make it clear what the law was before, what the gap in it is and what it is with which one means to fill the gap. I have forgotten the name of the case, but no doubt it will be remembered. It seems unbelievably impudent to do this amount of altering the common law without a great deal more discussion and inquiry than anybody has given to it.
  Where is the rule of law now? Where are the human rights now?
  The Attorney-General: Where is
  …?
  Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: Yes, I know. Where is Wullie Shakespeare now? I can tell hon. Members some of the things he would say about this.
  How are we to stand up to any foreign authority which questions whether the rule of law here means anything? Where now is our reliance in any commercial or financial arrangement across frontiers? What courts will now be thought sure to be fair and what courts will be able to see that their judgments are effective and are not overborne by some local legislature? What are the answers to these questions? There may be answers, but there have been no attempts to give them this afternoon. The questions have been brushed aside, and until there have been clear and candid answers to these questions I feel sure that the House should not give a Second Reading to the Bill.
  5.59 p.m.
  Mr. Ivor Richard: With a large part of what the right hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) said, I found myself in entire agreement. It was the purist's view of retrospective legislation and, in so far as I am capable of appreciating the purist's view and agreeing with it, I would agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Unfortunately, we cannot apply the purist's view to the facts of political life, and it is equally clear that we cannot apply the purist's view to

  1129
  the circumstances of the war, particularly in Burma in 1942.
  There is one fundamental misconception in the opposition to the Bill and it is that somehow or other the principle of retrospective legislation can be considered in isolation from the facts of the case. That cannot be done, especially when considering what happened as a result of a Government order in 1941.
  Clause 1 does clearly contain a retrospective element. One's immediate reaction to it is to say that this is a Bill specifically designed to reverse a House of Lords' decision and that it is therefore abhorrent—abhorrent for many of the reasons given by the right hon. Gentleman. It offends the principle that a man is entitled to rest on the decision of the highest court in the land—which may be the first objection to the Bill—and it gets rid of the principle that the law should be certain as declared by the highest court in the land; also that the Bill is contrary to a certain basic idea of equity, that there is something basically unfair in allowing a man to litigate and then, when the decision goes against the Government, for the Government to turn round and reverse that decision. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]. I am much obliged to hon. Members opposite for saying their "Hear, hears". I am afraid that they will not be quite so vociferous in five minutes.
  This was my initial reaction to the Bill. It is a natural reaction of a lawyer and, if I may say so, a very praiseworthy reaction, to such legislation. Frankly, one of Parliament's more jealously preserved duties is that it should be zealous when considering legislation of this sort. When legislation is brought before the House whose effect is to reverse a decision of the House of Lords, it should be looked at most carefully. If the legislation is such that it not only reverses a decision of the House of Lords but decides that, in a case in which A had won, from the time that the Act is passed B and not A should be deemed to have won, Parliament should be even more zealous in considering it.
  May I make one more remark about some of the speeches which we have heard? For my own part, I cannot find it in myself to uphold the decision of the Treasury Solicitor, whoever took it—whether it was the Law Officers of the
  1130
  Conservative Government when they were in power I know not—to write the letter to the Burmah Oil Company in the course of the litigation. It was not a letter which should have been written or which should be relied upon by either side in this argument.
  Having said that, may I pose what seems to me to be the important issue in the Bill and in the debate? It is not whether retrospective legislation is always bad because, although one may merely be adding to bad precedents, it is clear that from time to time this House and other legislatures have found it necessary to pass retrospective legislation. To that extent, therefore, it would not be right for the House merely to look at the Bill and say, "It is retrospective, ergo it is bad and therefore we must vote against it." In my opinion, that would be a wrong approach to the Bill. We must go behind the sole principle of retrospection and ask, not whether it is permissible as a general principle, but, rather in the particular circumstances of this case, should we as a House allow this retrospection to take place? When one considers that, it becomes impossible to divorce the facts of the litigation from the desire to overturn the decision of the House of Lords.
  The real question is: in the particular circumstances of this case—as the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) said (and I agreed with the way in which he put the question)—should the decision of the House of Lords be upheld or reversed, or, to put it in another way, should retrospective legislation be passed?
  What are the circumstances? This is a claim for denial damages; we are all agreed about that. We are also agreed that a clear distinction has been drawn in law between denial damage and battle damage. For my part, I do not see the distinction. If it is a distinction in law, it is a distinction which seems to me absolutely unreal in fact. May I give one example which I believe illustrates this fact and reinforces my point of view? On the day that the Burmah Oil Company was ordered to destroy its installations—if the House of Lords was right and if this House upholds that decision—if the company blew them up itself, as it did, it is entitled to compensation for the damage which it suffered. If that be the law, there is a perfectly

  1131
  legitimate claim for compensation for denial damage. If on the day after the Japanese arrived the Royal Air Force in Burma flew across the installations and were successful in dropping a bomb on the precise place where the voluntary explosions took place, the Burmah Oil Company would not be entitled to compensation.
  It is this absurdity which seems to me to underline the fallacy of trying to divorce denial damage from what has been popularly called battle damage. If the installations were bombed, the company does not get compensation; if it is ordered to blow them up and does so, then, on the decision of the House of Lords, it is entitled to compensation. This is anomalous and absurd.
  The right hon. Member for Carlton said that we should not drag in the question of war widows and people who had been ordered to die for their country. I would not drag it in as an emotional factor in this argument, because the emotion of that sort of argument does not advance the case for the Bill one iota. However, I should like to use it in this way. If it is the fact that the dependants of a man who dies for his country are not entitled to bring an action against the Crown and are not entitled to receive thousands of pounds in damages for the loss of the breadwinner which that family has sustained, it merely underlines the absurdity of trying to draw a distinction between battle damage and denial damage.
  How in the circumstances of modern war can one divide the matter into compartments and say that the dependants of the man who dies receive no damages, that all that the man who is wounded gets is a military pension, and that the man who is injured on the road, for example, has to prove negligence in order to establish his claim, but that if the Army, out of military necessity, orders the Burmah Oil Company to blow up its installations to deny the use of a vital sinew of war to the enemy whom we are engaged in fighting it is entitled to vast sums of compensation? How can one say that it is entitled to compensation whereas these other equally meritorious cases are not?
  If in 1946 a Bill had been introduced in the House which said quite simply
  1132
  that in the case of denial damage caused by the order of the military there should be no claim against the Crown, I have no doubt that it would have been passed and that hon. Members opposite would not have said much about it
  If hon. Members opposite are with me this far, they seem to be agreeing that this is the sort of damage against which the Crown ought to indemnify itself. If they accept what I have said, they agree that what has loosely been called denial damage in time of war is the sort of damage which the Crown should not be under any liability to compensate for in this way, and that it is the sort of damage which should be compensated for out of the general public purse in exactly the same way as we would deal with any other members of the population who had suffered injury or damage as a result of war.
  Sir P. Agnew: The hon. Gentleman is deploying a very interesting argument. He has described the hypothetical circumstances in which a Bill might have been introduced and passed by this House in 1946 abolishing the liability at common law for denial damage. Is he going on to suggest that it would also have been reasonable to have left the situation in that new but negative condition and not to go on and provide for statutory compensation for denial damage?
  Mr. Richard: No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that if in 1946 a Bill had been introduced which purported to take away the common law right to receive compensation for denial damage, I should have thought that it would have been passed. This is purely a matter of judgment, and hon. Members who have been in the House much longer than I have are in a better position to exercise their judgment on it than I am. But, given the fact that the war was then over, and given the immense amount of damage caused not only in Burma but to people in this country, I should have thought that this House would have accepted that the common law right to compensation should go. Whether the House would have gone on to enact a Statute by which denial damage was covered in the same way as the ordinary war damage by enemy aircraft was covered, I do not know. I must say this

  1133
  to the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir P. Agnew). Of course, that is not the position we are dealing with today. What we are dealing with and what this House must consider is whether we are prepared to accept now, in 1965, that a right to denial damage exists although in 1946 the House of Commons would have been prepared to accept a Bill of Indemnity denying the validity of that right. This seems to me to be the real question which the House is considering. We are now 19 years on and, therefore, it is necessary to consider whether this time scale has made any difference.
  The Attorney-General: Perhaps I may help my hon. Friend. Of course, there was a statutory right to compensation for denial damage under the Burma rules—that is, under the laws of Burma itself. That right undoubtedly existed, but, unfortunately, it proved to be valueless.
  Mr. Richard: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that intervention. It answers the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South.
  If one can project oneself back in time to 1946, the position would have been as follows. I should have thought that the House would have said that there was no common law right to compensation for denial damage; it would not agree that the people who had suffered denial damage should be put in a special category. Having said that, it would have gone on to reinforce that viewpoint by saying that in any event there were the statutory provisions in Burma which would be applicable to the particular circumstances or the Burmah Oil case.
  The really important point, however, and the point which seems to me to be fundamental to the whole argument on the Bill, is whether this House is now prepared to say that people who suffered damage as a result of an order by the military in time of war should be put in a special category from anybody else who has suffered any other kind of damage in time of war, including personal injury or death. That is the point that is really before us.
  If hon. Members are with me to that extent and if they agree that in 1946 that
  1134
  would probably have been the result, one must look at what has happened between 1946 and 1965 and then decide whether the fact of the litigation and the decision of the House of Lords somehow or other gives an extra right to denial damage which this House would not have considered that people should have had if the Bill had been presented in 1945.
  Sir J. Foster: The hon. Member is formulating a point which is not the point made from these benches and he is trying to answer something which does not exist. The point is whether retrospective legislation should ever deprive a person who has won his action up to that point of the fruits of his action. That is the whole argument.
  Mr. Richard: I am obliged to the hon. and learned Member. That was the next point I intended to try to answer.
  One cannot decide whether this retrospective legislation is or is not justified until one first decides whether the claim that one is trying to reverse would or would not be justified in itself. It seems to me that the attempt to divorce the two—[Interruption.] I am sorry if hon. Members say "Of course not", but it seems to me to be the height of absurdity if what one attempts to do is to say that in no circumstances should this House intervene to reverse the decision of the House of Lords retrospectively so as to overturn that decision and not merely reverse the point that has been decided.
  If hon. Members opposite go that far, I am certainly not prepared to go with them, because it seems to me that what one has to do is to look at the type of claim which has been made and the type of claim which has been upheld by the House of Lords and then, having looked at that claim, decide whether it is the sort of claim that should be admitted. I use "ought" in its broadest sense. In this case it means whether, if in 1945 or 1946 this had been considered a valid ground for compensation, this House would then have legislated retrospectively. The foundation of my argument is that if it would have done so, one must now look at what has happened in the last 20 years.
  Of course, there has been a decision of the House of Lords and there has been protracted litigation. I say it not as a party point, but the Bill would have been

  1135
  very much better introduced had it been brought in at the time the action was started in this country in 1960. It would have been far better had the Government then tried to protect themselves and sought to secure the complete indemnity which they must now secure retrospectively by saying in 1960 that this was not the sort of claim that the British Government should entertain. However, the Government did not do that. The action was fought, and all credit goes to the advisers of the Burmah Oil Company and their advocates. They must have been singularly skilful and clearly they have been extremely successful.
  Having got the decision from the House of Lords, however, it surely amounts to no more than a decision by the House of Lords that in law a right to compensation for denial damage exists. It amounts to no more and no less than that. It is a declaratory judgment of what the House of Lords now says the law is.
  For the life of me, I do not see the logic of saying that the Lords now having decided that that right exists, if we had thought that it existed in 1945 or 1946 we would have legislated for it, and then turning round and saying that because we did not think that it existed in 1945 and because the House of Lords has now decided that we were wrong, although we would have legislated then we will not legislate now. That does not seem to me to be logical or consistent and it seems to me to be the main point in favour of the Bill.
  The effect of the Bill, if passed, would be to put the Burmah Oil Co. back in precisely the same position as it would have been if in 1945 this House had passed the retrospective legislation that, I suggest, it would have passed then. [Interruption.] The provision concerning costs is dealt with in the Bill. I entirely accept, as I know the Government do, that in passing the Bill and putting the Burmah Oil Company back 20 years, we have to compensate the company for the expense to which it has gone in the litigation. We would undoubtedly have to do that. Nevertheless, one comes back fundamentally to the point that by passing the Bill and by enacting it, although it be retrospective legislation, we are doing now precisely what we would have done
  1136
  20 years ago had the House of Commons then realised that the law was what the House of Lords has now decided it to be.
  I do not like retrospective legislation. I hope that that has been obvious from my speech. There are many of us on these benches who do not like retrospective legislation and there are many hon. Members on the Government Front Bench who do not like it either. I hope, however, that I speak for a large number of hon. Members on this side in saying that we see no reason whatever for isolating denial damage from all the other compartments of damage which might have been sustained as a result of that immense war which we so happily won and that we see no reason for paying to the Burmah Oil Company whatever the figure might be—I mind not for this purpose whether it is £100, £100,000 or £10 million—and putting the people who have suffered denial damage in such a special category. There seems to me to be little justification for it. I had better say as little as possible about the decision of the House of Lords.
  6.20 p.m.
  Sir John Foster: The hon. and learned Gentleman the Financial Secretary, moving the Second Reading, was careful, I think, not to grasp the real point of the debate. The point of the debate, as he ought to have appreciated, is that this Bill is depriving a person of a right which the House of Lords says he has; and a right to claim damages is a very real right. One might be able even to discount it somewhere, but it is obviously a right, and it is idle to say that it is not confiscatory, as a right will be confiscated by this Bill.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman then sought to take refuge in, I submit, an entirely false analogy. He said the Bill was like an indemnity Bill. An indemnity of whom? Because the decision of the House of Lords was that the acts were quite lawful. So whom are we going to indemnify? Are we going to indemnify the servants of the Crown against the consequences of their lawful acts? It is not like an indemnity Bill. This is a Bill which decides that a person who has won the action up to that point has lost it. It is not an indemnity Bill. The oil company won;

  1137
  at the end of the Bill it has lost. There is nobody to be indemnified. The Bill exonerates the Government from the possibility of paying damages which the House of Lords says they might have to pay if the Burmah Oil Company wins the rest of the case. This is an exoneration for paying damages. It therefore confiscates the right to damages. That really is the whole argument.
  The hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) was saying that retrospective legislation is justified and retrospective legislation to confiscate the right of somebody is justified if the legislation was passed 20 years ago to deprive that person of that right. I do not think he can carry many people on that. It is not a justification of depriving a man of a right in 1965 because the House might have deprived him of that right. It was changing the law, but not depriving him of some right if it was said, "He should not bring an action." That is fair enough. We are being deprived of possible actions all the time by changes in the law, but it is the retrospective character of altering a decision of the House of Lords which is the gravamen of the charge.
  It is very sad that this infraction of the rule of law should be committed—by two Governments, perhaps potentially by one Government, and actually by another Government—when so many of the members responsible belong to an organisation called Justice—the Lord Chancellor, the Financial Secretary, the Attorney-General. I would remind the House of another glaring instance, when the late Government committed an equally grave infraction of this rule in the case of Prince Frederick. Then the late Attorney-General and the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), a leader of this party, both voted against the Government on this very principle. They went into the Lobby against the Government because they were so shocked, and they upheld the tradition of this organisation to which they belong. This organisation exists to bring Governments to the realisation of what they are doing when they want to ride roughshod over the rights of people.
  It is probable at this stage that, the Whips having talked to the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne), the result will be that the Second Reading of the Bill will be carried, but I foretell that the
  1138
  opposition to the Bill will mount as people begin to realise what it involves, and it will amount to a crescendo in another place, and I would have thought that the Government will not have a chance of passing the Bill.
  Mr. Richard: That is not an argument against it.
  Sir J. Foster: No, it is a warning that people who do not realise what they are doing, or whose consciences are dulled by party motives, will begin to see that retrospective legislation to deprive a person of the fruits of a judicial decision is never justified—never. There may be a precedent, but that precedent was wrong, the case of Phillips against Eyre. The opinion of practically all the lawyers was that it was a purely political decision which was entirely wrong in principle. It is one of the rights of man that he cannot be deprived of his rights which he has won in a court of law.
  Mr. S. C. Silkin: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument, then, that there would not have been objection to this Bill if it had been brought in 1960 or even 1963?
  Sir J. Foster: No. There would not have been the same objection, and I, personally, would have been in favour of it, but the gravamen of this is the depriving of a man of a decision when it is in his favour. That is the point to meet. Of course, there cannot be the same objection to a Bill passed before the rights are established.
  However, I was dealing with the arguments of the Financial Secretary when he dismissed the foreign aspect of the matter, saying it was purely a matter of indemnity and that there was no need to pay any attention to foreign opinion. That is not the point. The point is that the Executive are saying not only that the decision of the court was wrong but "We change the law so that it is wrong. We therefore hold the law to have been different." The man won his case and he has lost. That is wrong.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman said this was not a matter of foreign litigation; he said this was purely a domestic company. All right. Imagine what is the case when an English oil company has a subsidiary in a foreign country and the subsidiary claims a concession and says

  1139
  that it is so and so, and that it is entitled to some amount of more land to explore, and the Government of that country say, "No, the concession means this," and the company fights it all the way up to the equivalent of the supreme court. Suppose that the Government of the foreign country say, "We do not care who wins in the court. We are going to reverse the law." Then the foreign Government have only got to say to ours, "But you adopted the principle of reversing retrospectively the judgment of your High Court."
  That is the point which the hon. and learned Gentleman did not meet; and he did not meet other points, but I do submit that it is important for hon. Gentlemen on the other side not to try to draw a lot of red herrings over this, that they have to examine their consciences to meet this point and only this point. They have got to say why it is right to deprive a man of the fruits of a judgment, why it is right to confiscate a right which has been established by the highest court of the land.
  The amount does not matter. Whether it is denial damage or war damage, I rather agree, is a foolish distinction, and therefore I would be in favour of Clause 1 altering the law; but that is irrelevant to this point. It is on Clause 2 that hon. Gentlemen opposite should concentrate.
  At present, the public are deceived by a thing like this, when the lawyers bring up lots of arguments, but it is in accordance with the customs of this House that though hon. Members may differ from the view I am expressing they ought to meet the argument, and ought to say whether they think it right in this case to deprive a company of the fruits of victory, and why, and they should not simply say that this is a sort of ramp to give shareholders in Burmah Oil a lot of money, and I plead that hon. Members should not use the emotional argument as did the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) about widows and orphans and so on. It has got nothing to do with it.
  The hon. Member for Barons Court did try to meet the case. I do not agree with the way he met it. If I may say so without being patronising, he met it intellectually and logically, because he tried to find the reason why this kind of retrospective legislation is justified. I wish
  1140
  other hon. Members opposite would follow his example, because this is indeed a precedent, which will go all over the world, for this affects Anglo-Saxon law, and here is the House of Commons saying, "A man who has won, he has lost." I consider that a most improper principle.
  6.28 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I confess that when I came into the House this afternoon for the purpose of listening to this debate I had been very greatly impressed by the criticisms of the Bill which had appeared both on the part of the applicants and in some of the more reputable newspapers, and I came in with a prejudice against the Bill. I hope that no one will feel that it is disrespectful if I say that, as a result of the argument I have heard in this debate, I am not quite satisfied that my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is right and that the House ought to accept the Bill.
  If any speech might have influenced me the other way, it was the extremely lucid and attractive speech of the hon. and learned Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster). If this really were a purely legal argument, I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman would have made his case overwhelmingly, but he himself said—and I agree with him—that this Measure which we are being asked to approve is not a matter of law. It is a political decision, and the only question for the House is whether it is a right political decision, or a wrong one.
  I am not impressed by all the statements that we have heard during the debate from eminent lawyers about its not being correct for the Legislature to reverse decisions by the courts. This is one of the first duties of any legislature, and the House of Commons has done it repeatedly over the centuries. One has only to cite by way of example, without going into any argument about it, the Taff Vale and Osborne judgments, and the Acts of Parliament which were passed by the Legislature to reverse the results of those judgments, to know that if the courts reach a decision which is correct in point of law, but which, in principle, is regarded by the House as not being a good principle, it is not merely the right, but the duty, of the Legislature to change it. This has been

  1141
  done repeatedly, and there is nothing wrong with it.
  It is a different point from the retrospective point, which I agree is a separate one. In the cases which I mentioned, no one sought to upset the established judgments so far as the rights of persons were concerned. What we did was to change the law for the future without affecting immediate decisions which we thought were right in law but wrong in principle and which we proceeded to reverse. If that is all that there were in this argument, I think that the opponents would have made their case.
  Mr. Geoffrey Howe: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the parallel situation in modern times to the argument that he is advancing would be if the Government were to introduce legislation to affect the Rookes v. Barnard decision, not merely by reversing it prospectively, but by applying it retrospectively so as to deprive Mr. Rookes of the damages which he was awarded by the court?
  Mr. Silverman: I follow that, but I want to follow the challenge which, I think, was eminently legitimate and which I am attempting to meet.
  I cannot judge how successful I am being in my efforts to meet the challenge to defend it as a political, as against a legal, principle. For that, let us look at the facts. In 1942 we were at a critical stage in the war. The Japanese were on the point of overrunning the whole of Burma, as eventually they did. The applicants here had a valuable property, valuable in the sense not merely that it was valuable to them as a piece of property, but valuable to whoever held it in a military and strategic sense.
  Suppose that nothing had been done. Suppose that the directions of the Government to destroy the plant had not been given. Suppose the applicants had not voluntarily either in obedience to directions or without such directions, destroyed it. What would have happened? The Japanese would have taken it, they would have used it, and when eventually they were forced out again in their turn, they would have destroyed it.
  Mr. Harold Lever: That is a very good point in going to damages, but surely it goes to nothing else?
  Mr. Silverman: If my hon. Friend will hear the end of my argument, he may still think it is irrelevant, but he will be in a better position to form a judgment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Retrospectively."] What I am saying is that the actual loss was inevitable in the circumstances of the war—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—unless we are to contemplate that in those circumstances the Japanese would have been more generous to us than we were to them, which I find very difficult to accept as a plausible proposition. So, to prevent what must at that time have seemed a reasonable anticipation of events, directions were given to destroy this plant, and it was destroyed.
  The question is: who should bear that loss? If a claim had been made against this Government at the time, it is inconceivable that they would not have passed an Act of Indemnity.
  Sir J. Foster: The company believes that it can provide positive evidence that the Japanese would not have destroyed these oil installations, because of their belief in co-existence between themselves and the people of the area. The hon. Gentleman cannot say "inevitably" or "certainly". There is a grave argument about that, because the Japanese believed that even if they lost the war they ought to keep the good will of the people of South-East Asia.
  Mr. Silverman: It may well be that if the Japanese had won the war this company would have established a registered office in Tokio and made a claim against the Japanese Government. I do not think that that is a matter which the House of Commons, in 1965, ought to be asked to take into account. The question is not whether the company was ultimately able to prove that the Japanese would not in those circumstances have destroyed it.
  I would not accept the evidence even if it were produced, but that is not the point. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Hon. Gentleman is not the judge."] I am sure that hon. Gentleman will see what I mean, that ex post facto evidence of that kind has nothing to do with the case, because the practical question is, what caused the

  1143
  Government of the day to ask the company to destroy it? The thing that caused the Government to do that is precisely the point which everybody would have expected even if, ultimately, years afterwards, there could be some sort of pretence, or some sort of evidence, that it would not have happened.
  I am saying that if the claim had been made in 1945, undoubtedly the Government of the day, apart from the compensation which they paid, which was by no means an immaterial sum, would have passed an Act of Indemnity. The hon. and learned Gentleman may think that that is the wrong word. He may prefer to call it exoneration, but whatever it is called there is no doubt that the Government would have done it. There is no doubt that they had the power to do it, and there is no doubt that every Member of the House would have supported them in doing it.
  Let it be understood that every Act of Indemnity is restrospective, because, unless there is an established right, there is nothing to indemnify anybody about. Every Act of Indemnity takes away from somebody something which would have been his if the Act of Indemnity had not been passed.
  That is the answer to the objection that is taken not so much to reversing by legislative means a judicial decision but the restrospective effect of it—because an Act of Indemnity is always retrospective; otherwise it would not be an Act of Indemnity. If we were right to do it then—and I am postulating that no one would have thought it wrong—how can it be wrong to do it now?
  Here I differ from the view expressed in a remark made by my hon. and learned Friend in his extremely illuminating and valuable contribution. He seemed to accept the criticisms made of the Treasury Solicitor's letter. I know that he has considerable judicial support for that view, but I do not share it. The Treasury Solicitor's letter was absolutely and eminently right, and the real criticism would be not that he wrote it but if he had failed to write it.
  What was he saying, in substance? Perhaps this is a paraphrase, but I hope that hon. Members will think that it is not an unfair one. He was saying, "We do not believe that you have this right.
  1144
  If you had this right we would have passed an Act to exempt ourselves from the damages that flow from it. We cannot do that, because we do not believe that you have the right at all. What we are saying to you, in all fairness, is that if you proceed and establish the right, then you will have provided the basis for an Act of Indemnity."
  Does anyone really think that if the Government intended to do that—and quite obviously they always did—it would have been justifiable on their part not to have warned the applicants what their intention was? I cannot understand the judicial criticism, let alone support it. The letter was an eminently proper letter to write. I repeat: the real criticism would have been if the letter had not been written.
  Sir S. Summers: Surely there was an alternative course open to the Government at the time, namely, to introduce a Bill then, before the processes of law had reached their conclusion, to avoid the necessity for writing such a letter.
  Mr. Silverman: I am prepared to concede that that might have been more prudent. But I appreciate their difficulty. They did not believe that there was anything in respect of which to indemnify themselves. They did not accept the contention. It may be that they were badly advised; I do not know. But having formed the view that there was no right they could not pass an Act to indemnify themselves against the consequences of breaching it. Therefore, since they intended to exonerate themselves if the right was established, I say that it was right and proper that they should have warned the applicants of that intention.
  I make my final point not upon a legal basis, but upon a commonsense, political one. I hope that I can make it without unnecessary emotion, and that we can keep emotion out of any matter where human beings are necessarily involved. I go back to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). If hon. Members wish to refer to it as the distinction between battle damage and denial damage, I do not mind about the jargon that is used. I am inviting the House to consider the common sense of the matter, never mind whether or not it is soundly based legally.

  1145
  How can we say to a widow who, at an early age, has lost a young husband—the father of her children—"This is battle damage. We will do what we can for you, but only on an exiguous and extremely frugal basis, and in many cases pay you nothing at all, or nothing until you are old and unable to help yourself," while, at the same time, we say to a very wealthy, international firm, which has lost nothing whatever under these proceedings, "We shall concede the claim which, if you are right in the way you have formulated it, must amount to about £100 million"?
  I say that if the opposition is put in those terms, and if we accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's challenge to ignore the legal and judicial issues and look at the matter as a purely political decision, the House should say that as a political decision it is eminently right.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: I beg to move, to leave out "now" and at the end of the Question to add "upon this day six months".
  In effect, this is an Amendment to reject the Bill in toto.
  I say, first, to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) that as I heard the speech of the hon. arid learned Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster) he did not invite the House to dismiss all legal and judicial issues and to decide the matter on purely political grounds. Anyone who knows the hon. arid learned Member for Northwich would find it extremely difficult to believe that he ever would put forward such an argument.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I am sorry to interrupt so early, and I shall try not to do so again, but the hon. and learned Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster) is present and can defend himself.
  Sir J. Foster: I got him to do it.
  Mr. Silverman: If the hon. and learned Member will take the trouble to read his speech as reported in HANSARD tomorrow he will see that he appealed to the Government to stop pretending that this was justified by law or by judicial principles, and to defend it, if
  1146
  they wanted to defend it, as a political decision.
  Mr. Thorpe: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to attempt, by retrospection, to improve the record as far as the hon. and learned Member's speech is concerned.
  I was somewhat surprised and disappointed that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, who is a lawyer and who, therefore, I would have expected to argue the matter on legal grounds, put forward women, children and orphans—the only things that we did not have thrown into the argument were the limbless and the Almighty—in furtherance of an argument in favour of undermining the rule of law in this country, because that rule of law is just as important to the widow who comes into the High Court, legally aided, to recover damages in respect of the death of her husband, and to the man who loses a limb in a factory, as it is to the large, wealthy international company. Therefore, I hope that it will be possible to discount the sentimental arguments, which do far more damage to humble people who rely upon the independence of the judiciary and the courts of this country than they do to international corporations.
  It was no surprise to me that the Minister who introduced the Bill should have been a Treasury Minister, because this is a Treasury Bill. The Financial Secretary spoke not as a lawyer but as a Treasury Minister. I was staggered to find the Treasury seeking to advance the case of a Bill, the effect of which is to take away clearly established common law rights; to enhance the arbitrary power of the Executive; and to bring in retrospection not only to reverse the view of the House of Lords but to non-suit existing litigants by saying, "Market fluctuations showed that this was not going to have a great effect on the company. The company never mentioned this to its shareholders. The company did not think that it would be successful in litigation. Its expectations were not very great." That is totally irrelevant to the principle that we are discussing.
  Another aspect of the debate which horrified me was the intervention of the Attorney-General. He is a learned lawyer, and, unlike some Law Officers,

  1147
  is recognised to be such not only by politicians but by his own profession. That seems to be the acid test of the expertise of a Law Officer. When he questioned the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) he asked whether the hon. Member did not think that when a sum of nearly 4¾ million was paid in compensation to this company it was a generous settlement. He then retracted somewhat, and agreed that it was not compensation but rehabilitation, accepted by the company on those terms and, indeed, paid by the Government on those terms. What the Attorney-General seemed to be suggesting was that the size of the amount of money paid, the magnitude of the compensation, in some way could influence the strength or weakness of the principle involved. That may well be a Treasury point, but, with respect to the learned Attorney-General, it is not a lawyer's point.
  The Attorney-General: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I was merely intervening to correct what appeared to be a statement of fact by the hon. Gentleman that no compensation has been paid. I was endeavouring to point out that 4¾ million had been paid to the company.
  Mr. Thorpe: If the Attorney-General will forgive me, there are two comments I would make on that. The first is that he has linked it to the economic situation prevailing at the time, thereby intimating generosity, and I would respectfully urge on the House that generosity was mentioned in order to indicate a weakening of the principle we are debating. The second point is that there was no compensation, the money was specifically paid for rehabilitation. It was given as such and accepted as such. Whether or not the company wished ex gratia to debit that sum against any sum of compensation which it might subsequently receive is a matter for it. In all the circumstances it was not, nor was it intended to be, nor was it accepted as compensation at the time.
  The second argument which seems to me to be advanced by those who appeal to be in favour of this Bill is that advanced by the hon. Members for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) and Barons Court (Mr. Richard). They say, "We might have
  1148
  introduced certain legislation in 1947. Had we done so, this company would not have a cause of action today. We did not introduce legislation so it has a cause of action. But let us pretend that we did and therefore it has not the right to litigate, and that if it has litigated, let us retrospectively take away the right because we could have introduced legislation which would have made it impossible for it to have done so, had we done so."
  Mr. Richard: The hon. Gentleman has not got that quite right. It is not that we could have introduced legislation but that we would have introduced legislation.
  Mr. Thorpe: With respect, that is an even more metaphysical argument. It is now putting the hypothesis in the form that, with the most utter certainty, this House would have passed a particular piece of legislation. It is therefore an even more dangerous argument, in my submission.
  I make one other comment about the speech of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. I do not think that what the Japanese would or would not have done is relevant. When the Germans left Roumania in the Second World War the majority of the Ploesti oil wells were left undestroyed. Some destruction was done by American bombers, and little destruction was done by the Germans. It should not be assumed that a retreating enemy would destroy all the installations. When the hon. Gentleman asks who should bear the loss, I would re-echo the words of many learned judges at various stages of this case who have said that the loss should be borne by the community which has benefited by the destruction, and the community, of course, would include those who have suffered part of the damage.
  It is with some trepidation, as a retired lawyer, that I approach this subject. For different reasons I share that situation with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He also is a retired lawyer, perhaps on higher grounds than mine, as being Ministerial and mine being different. When this matter was introduced, I wondered whether it would be in furtherance of a legal principle or political expediency. No one who has any intellectual honesty would assert that it is anything but foisted on the House for the second reason.

  1149
  What, in fact, are we asked to do? What in fact, is the background to the Bill? First, it is plain that successive Governments have been persistent in trying to escape liability for paying compensation. They have been quite consistent about that and we must concede that fact. At least the doubtful virtue of consistency has been adopted by various Governments. Sir Stafford Cripps not only advised but requested the firm to sue in the Burmese courts. Anyone reading the letter written by Sir Reginald Dorman Smith on 23rd January in The Times would realise straight away that the responsibility for the destruction was no decision of the civil administration of which he was the Governor, it was purely a military decision taken on the advice and instructions of His Majesty's Government in this country. Therefore, I should have thought that was a delaying tactic which was not prefaced by very profound legal advice.
  There is the letter of the Treasury Solicitor which has already been mentioned. I would only suggest that had it been a matter which an ordinary Solicitor had submitted, there might well have been a case for committing the solicitor in question for contempt. It is true that the letter was not addressed to the learned judge, but it was quite obvious that it was intended to influence the court in its subsequent decision. Now we have this final Bill to reverse the decision of the House of Lords. So Governments have failed all down the line. They have failed to push off responsibility to another Government. They have failed in threatening the litigants, or frightening them off litigation. Finally, they find the decision of the House of Lords against them, so they bring legislation to relieve them of their embarrassment.
  The first thing they seek to do is to destroy once and for all the common law right of compensation in cases where property has been destroyed by act of the Prerogative. I find it staggering that the Financial Secretary should say that the law was not as it was generally thought to exist. I concede that it might have generally been thought to be what the Financial Secretary says it to be in his own mind. It was certainly not the position in the minds of all the learned
  1150
  judges whose judgments may be read in the three courts, but quite the reverse.
  The next thing we are asked to do is to increase the arbitrary power of the Executive by increasing the power of the Prerogative. I must confess that I am sorry that the Solicitor-General is not present in the Chamber. He comes from a family with a long Cromwellian tradition. One of the great arguments against the Stuarts was that they sought to exercise the power of the Prerogative without any recourse to the courts and without any deference to Parliament.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: What did Cromwell do?
  Mr. Thorpe: I hold no brief for Cromwell either—I think that they were all bad lots. It was a very patchy period in our history. But as Lord Reid pointed out in his judgment in the House of Lords, even at the time of John Hampden's case, when the power of the Prerogative had never been greater, it was never suggested that property could be confiscated without compensation being paid.
  The third thing we are being asked to do is retrospectively to reverse a decision of the House of Lords and also to non-suit existing litigants. Just to make abundantly certain that the Government have not failed to offend any canons of constitutional law they also gravely challenge the independence of the judiciary.
  It is true that compensation generally has been paid in these cases under Statute and the most obvious would be the Compensation Statute of 1939. It was under that Act that, for the most part, compensation was paid in these cases, but there has always, in my submission, been a clear common law right.
  The Financial Secretary mentioned that the jurists had not held this view. How wrong he is. If he takes the judgment of Lord Kilbrandon in the Outer House, the Court of First Instance, which is reported in the Scottish Law Times of 1962 at page 353, he will find that there is summarised what had been the view of jurists cited. I apologise for wearying the House, but since the Minister has told us categorically that jurists have never taken this view—
  Mr. MacDermot: I never mentioned it.
  Mr. Thorpe: With respect, I am subject to correction, but certainly it is my recollection—
  Mr. MacDermot: And mine. The hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but the only reference of any kind, or any passage which I stated, was from the judgment of Lord Radcliffe.
  Mr. Thorpe: If that be the sole suggestion which the Financial Secretary made about this matter, which I took it he was putting forward as one of his own arguments, I would, in even greater trepidation, say that Lord Radcliffe should on this issue refresh his memory. The learned judge Lord Kilbrandon said:
  "There is an inherent right in sovereign which exists and which none can revoke to take the property of private persons and, in the case of necessity, to destroy, to deny its enjoyment to the Sovereign's enemies. This prerogative right is independent of any right of private persons to act in the case of necessity. The Sovereign exercising this right is bound to determine the lost cause and to share it among the beneficiaries, with whom is included the private owner of that property."
  That is just a summary of the view of distinguished lawyers, such as Dicey, Grotius, De Vattel, and many others. In the First Division Lord Clyde cited the judgment of Lord Moulton in the case of the Attorney-General and De Keyser's Hotel to show quite clearly that the exercise of the Prerogative does not, in itself, give a lesser right to compensation than it would had the Crown acted by virtue of the current Statutes prevailing each one of which had had a built-in right to compensation. It has been suggested that the only reason that the court found against this company was that it held that the destruction was done in the course of actual battle, a view which was subsequently overruled by the House of Lords.
  It is in the House of Lords that one finds the greatest assistance. I concede straight away that the distinction between battle damage and denial is artificial. I accept that. There are many other definitions and distinctions in our law which are hopelessly academic. Perhaps the best is that which occurred in the Dilke case in regard to adultery—that proof that A committed adultery with B is proof that A committed adultery with B. It is not proof that B committed adultery with A. Of course there are many illogical distinctions.
  1152
  In the law of tort it is cheaper to kill than it is to maim. But this is no argument for the House of Commons being asked to bring in legislation not only to reverse a principle but to reverse a specific decision already arrived at.
  An hon. Member mentioned the Osborne case, but in that case the legislation followed because the principle established was held to be wrong and therefore the law was reformed for the future but not to deny a man the right which he had already been able to establish. That is what is different about this Bill and any other form of Bill which in effect reverses a decision. We are asked to abolish the common law right which all these judges, not, unfortunately, with the agreement of the Financial Secretary, have held has existed from time immemorial, not only on the strength of the learned jurists but upon decisions of the courts stretching over many years.
  Mr. W. T. Williams: The hon. Member keeps talking about "all the judges". In fact, of course, the weight of opinion was six judges against four. If one takes all the judges, six of the judges found in favour of the point of view which had been expressed by my hon. Friend and only four found for the opposite point of view.
  Mr. Thorpe: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member, but surely he will agree that it is perfectly true that all the judges held that if property were taken under the exercise of the Prerogative there followed a right to compensation. Now, the ratio decidendi of those judges who said that this company could not recover was that in their view the damage, although under the Prerogative, was war damage and flowed from the operation of battle and therefore was one of the exceptions to that general rule.
  My main contention remains, namely, that it was clearly established and was agreed by all the learned judges that when there is a taking by the Sovereign under the exercise of the Prerogative, compensation must be paid.
  Mr. Williams: With respect, what was decided was surely that there was a moral right to compensation and what was decided by six judges to four was that there was not a legal right. This is the basis of the argument.
  Mr. Thorpe: I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will bear with me. I think the decision was that there were judges who held that this company should not recover, and many of these judges said that although they reluctantly came to that view, they still felt that there was at least a moral right. The reason they came to that view was not that they held the view that a taking under the Prerogative disentitled somebody to compensation. They thought there should be compensation paid for any taking under the exercise of the Prerogative. The reason the company failed, in the view of this minority of judges, was that this was war damage. This was the view of Lord Radcliffe and Lord Clyde. This was the view of the dissenting judges, but they never departed from the principle that compensation should be payable.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I understood the hon. Member to be conceding that if the courts came to a decision in principle which was thought to be for any reason politically or socially objectionable, there was no harm in the legislature reversing it. He added that what it is wrong to do is to interfere with the established rights in the individual case. What my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) was pointing out to him was that although it is proposed to interfere with the established rights as settled by three votes to two among five judges in the House of Lords, a preponderance of judicial opinion goes the other way.
  Mr. Thorpe: I never said that at all, although I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for trying to suggest what I might have said. What I said was that if it is felt that a judgment produces unexpected consequences which are contrary to the wishes and the policy of the Executive, the Executive has a right—indeed, it may have a duty—subsequently to bring in legislation but that that legislation should only operate in future cases and not to deny persons who have already succeeded under previous laws. That is clearly the case in this Bill. What I find astonishing is that this is being adopted—though, admittedly by both Conservative and Labour Governments—by a party which, to their credit, brought in the Crown Proceedings Act in 1947. Before that Act, as the Attorney-General will know, there was no action in tort against the
  1154
  Crown and there was no action in contract against the Crown, unless one got the fiat. This Bill will, in effect, destroy a part of the Crown Proceedings Act because it is taking away from the subject a common law right against the prerogative. Therefore, this is undermining the principles of the 1947 Act which Labour brought in.
  I shall not weary the House, but may I give the House a few examples of what can happen under this Bill? Supposing, when this country was at war with Egypt in 1956—I am well aware that Lord Avon says this was merely "armed conflict"—a man had been knocked down in this country by a lorry which was travelling to Dover to get on a ship to go to Egypt. As the law would stand under the Bill, he would have no right to compensation because it would be an act which was done in furtherance of "or in contemplation of" a war. He would have no recourse—
  Mr. Richard: The hon. Member gives this example, but if he looks at the Bill he will see that it says
  "No person shall be entitled at common law to receive from the Crown compensation in respect of damage … caused … by acts lawfully done by, or on the authority of, the Crown".
  Somebody driving a motor car in such a negligent fashion would not be doing so on the authority of the Crown.
  Mr. Thorpe: I do not wish to get into an argument about construction, but I point out that there is an alternative in the Clause—either/or. In my submission, it is possible under the Bill for a person to be injured and to have no right of redress against the executive.
  Mr. MacDermot: I am sure that the hon. Member does not wish to mislead the House. The Bill is confined solely to the consequences of acts lawfully done—acts done by the Crown or done on the authority of the Crown. In either event they have to be lawful acts before the Bill is relevant at all.
  Mr. Thorpe: Then I am sure that the Financial Secretary will agree with this: if it were desired for example, as in cases quoted not in the House but in correspondence, to extend a runway which was being used for troop-carrying planes to land and take-off, it would be wholly right

  1155
  under the Bill, if those planes were going to Malaysia to deal with the situation in respect of Indonesia, to destroy the house of a person on that runway without having to pay him any compensation at all. That would be quite possible under the Bill as drafted. If I am wrong, then there is a whole battery of Law Officers present as well as the Financial Secretary, and I stand subject to correction.
  Sir John Hobson: I should have said that it would be unlawful under the law and under the Bill. The Crown is not entitled lawfully to take the property of people in this country when a war is going on in Malaysia. The denial cases, dealing with property only and not with personal injury, are within a very narrow range when the Crown has acted in the teeth of the enemy when there is imminent danger of invasion. The Crown, under the law as I understand it, is not under the Prerogative normally entitled to take the property of the subject—otherwise it would be a tort, unless there were statutory authority for its actings.
  Mr. Thorpe: With respect to the former Attorney-General, if he reads the Bill as drafted he will find that it is most instructive. The Bill does not restrict such acts to those committed in a theatre of war or to those where there is a present threat of the enemy. It is drafted so that if it is held by the Executive to be necessary in furtherance or in contemplation of a war to destroy property even within the United Kingdom, then if it is done under the power of the Prerogative, no compensation may be claimed. That is what Clause 1 says.
  Mr. Taverne: There may be something in the point or there may not, but surely it is essentially a drafting point which can be considered in Committee and which is irrelevant to the principle.
  Mr. Thorpe: If the suggestion which I am making is correct and if it establishes that the consequences of the Bill are far graver than the Government have thought, by the very same token it indicates that they have not sufficiently appreciated the damage which they are doing to the wider principle, which is the rule of law itself. This Bill goes far further than merely trying to get the Government off the hook as far as the
  1156
  Burmah Oil Company is concerned. It goes very much further than that.
  Mr. Harold Lever Mr. Harold Lever rose—
  Mr. Thorpe: I have given way many times and taken up a lot of time, and I must bring my remarks to a close.
  On this principle of retrospective legislation, supposing the House of Lords were to come to a decision on an interpretation of the Finance Act which was a complete surprise to the Government of the day—a decision which suddenly denied the Government sources of revenue on which they had relied—would the Government be entitled to introduce a Bill the effect of which would be retrospectively to tax those whom the House of Lords had said should be relieved of that obligation? Of course, that would not be suggested, but that is what is being suggested in the Bill.
  I would make one comment about the principle of retrospection. It is generally accepted that it is important that the laws in this country should be certain and clear, so that if the subject does an act which is legal today he does not wake up tomorrow and find out that in fact it was illegal. The reason why we introduce retrospective legislation in this country is to protect people from the consequence of illegal acts. It is not to take away accrued or existing rights. If hon. Members look to the views of Dicey, who was perhaps one of the most eminent jurists to deal with this question, they will find no example given, no case cited, in which existing or accrued rights have been taken away. It is rather to protect people from the consequence of illegal acts.
  This has been the principle behind such legislation as the Indemnity Acts in the 18th century, which were to protect the dissenters who took municipal office not having received the sacrament. If hon. Members look at the Indemnity Act of 1920 they will see that it was to relieve people from the consequence of illegal acts committed during the Great War. There were also the Gold Standard (Amendment) Act and the Essential Commodities (Reserves) Act. These were not to take away existing rights but to protect people from the consequences of illegal acts. This is why I suggest that the retrospection claimed in this case is not comparable with other retrospective Acts which we have had in the House.

  1157
  In the last Parliament the Labour Party was constant in its criticisms of judges being used for political purposes—judges being used for purposes by which their judicial position was undermined and in which they were implicated in political decisions. I agreed with the Labour Party. Could it not also be said that today the independence of those same judges is being undermined by that same party now in Government? The fact that a man obtains a judgment in a court of law under the common law of England as it stands may not necessarily he final, because there is to be another court of appeal, above the House of Lords, which is the Treasury Front Bench. This seems to me to be wholly wrong.
  There is the argument that the compensation will be very, very expensive. I do not know whether it will be expensive or whether, when the measure of damages is assessed, it will be very much less than anyone thought. But that is not the issue. This is the reverse of the argument of the unmarried mother, who said, "The baby was only a little one". The Government's argument is that their action is all right because the claim may well be a big one and therefore they are entitled to take this action. That argument is just as unprincipled and just as irrelevant.
  I therefore suggest that this is a bad Bill. It is a Bill which undermines the independence of the judiciary—but it is not the first time that British Governments have sought to evade their obligations in these matters. In 1920 there was a comparable case which was heard before Mr. Justice Darling in the King's Bench Division about the destruction of the Ploesti oil fields in Roumania. A Member of this House destroyed those oil fields, and, with the full authority of the British Government, signed a memorandum to the effect that there would be entitlement to compensation at the end of the war. He accepted the valuation of a firm of chartered accountants, the senior partner of which was also a colleague of his in the House of Commons. The Government fought that tooth and nail, but the company won in the High Court. It was taken to the Court of Appeal. It went to the House of Lords. The Government deliberately
  1158
  spun it on until the company went bankrupt, and then washed their hands of it.
  I am somewhat interested in that case, not only because it is comparable, but because the Member of Parliament who destroyed the oil wells and who gave that personal undertaking was my grandfather. Therefore, I have had some little knowledge of the perfidy of Governments who destroy property to obtain their own very proper ends for the good of the nation and then, when the day of reckoning comes, try to find loopholes for escape.
  I suggest that it may do for Ghana to try to reverse decisions of courts; it may do for South Africa, but it certainly does not do for this country. I am pleased that the Solicitor-General has arrived. No one knows better than he does how bitterly his Cromwellian ancestors fought the exercise of the Prerogative by the Crown and fought for the independence of the courts and for the independence of the House of Commons. Charles I lost his head for trying to do precisely that. I warn the Solicitor-General that his will not sit very happily on his shoulders if he is visited by the spirits of his ancestors in the weeks and months ahead. I suggest that the Bill undermines the independence of the judiciary. It is brought in because a particular decision is embarrassing to the Legislature. It is not consistent with the traditions which the House has of maintaining the rule of law.
  We intend to press our Amendment. I am delighted that 48 hon. Members have signed the other Amendment. I assume, as their Amendment has not been called, that all of them will support our Amendment. It is interesting to reflect that, had they taken their opposition to the vote in the last Parliament—no one suggests that their principles in any way alter with the changed geographical position they occupy in the House now—it would have been sufficient to have brought down the Tory Government of the day. I hope, after the advice of the Leader of the Opposition last night, that we shall not have any hon. Members abstaining in order to try to keep the Labour Government in office. According to him, this is apparently an impossible position for any hon. Member to find himself in—being unable to agree with one view or the other. This is a

  1159
  position which in the minds of the Tories does not exist. I therefore hope that we shall have the overwhelming support of those hon. Members.
  The right hon. and learned Member for the Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) is clearly embarrassed by his own misdeeds. I suggest that an act of repentance would not be amiss. This applies also to those hon. Members opposite who are lawyers but who, try as they will, have not convinced themselves by the power of their own logic. We shall take our Amendment to a Division, and I hope that we shall, to use the words of perhaps one of our greatest Parliamentarians, take this Bill out and wring its wretched neck.
  7.23 p.m.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: I wish to make it quite clear that I am against retrospective legislation. It may be legally justified, but in my view it is morally unjustifiable. In this connection, I must with diffidence join issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) and agree with the hon. and learned Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster). The argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Barons Court was, if I understood it rightly, that taking the situation as it was—
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: On a point of order. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for interrupting him. Would it be possible for you, Mr. Speaker, for the convenience of the House, to inform us whether you propose to put the Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time" after you have put the Question on the Amendment you have called, or do you propose to put only the Question on the Amendment?
  Mr. Speaker: The practice is this. I put the Question, "That the word 'now' stand part …" Should the House decide that it stands part, I am then obliged by the Standing Order to declare the Bill read a Second time.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: The argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Barons Court appeared to be this. If we now pass this legislation, depriving the company of a right which the court said it had, we are saying, "If we had passed legislation in 1946, you would not have
  1160
  had this right. Therefore, we are putting you in the same position now as you would have been in if we had passed that legislation". That is all complicated by an ugly little fact. The legislation was not passed then. It would be just as bad if now we passed legislation making it an offence for hon. Members to speak for more than half an hour and made it retrospective for five years, saying, "We are putting you in the same position as you would have been in if we had passed this legislation five years ago".
  So, were it not for one fact, I would feel constrained to abstain from voting. The one fact is that this case bears strong resemblance to a case which occurred in 1954. In 1953 it was discovered by a member of the Bar, quite by accident, that all wireless licence charges levied by the Postmaster-General were ultra vires, or unlawful. A case was brought by Davey Paxman against the Post Office In that case, the then Attorney-General, Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller, had to submit to judgment. Davey Paxman obtained judgment for about £150 unlawfully charged as fees for wireless licences. They were all ultra vires. The Act gave the power to the Postmaster-General, with the consent of the Treasury, to make Regulations fixing fees for wireless licences. The Postmaster-General had never obtained the consent of the Treasury, nor had he made any Regulations.
  When we came out of court, it was realised by the Postmaster-General that he would owe the sum of about £360 million to subscribers who had paid their wireless licence fees like good boys. A flood of actions was started. People came from far and wide trying to get back the money they had paid. The Postmaster-General then issued a notice in clear terms stating that, if any action after Davey Paxman's was prosecuted to a successful conclusion, the money would not be paid, because a retrospective Act would be passed. These people had notice that nothing more would be paid. Accordingly, no action was brought. There was not a word of protest about that. It was considered natural.
  Sir J. Foster: Did Davey Paxman have to pay back the £150?
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: No, because the notice was not given when Davey Paxman

  1161
  brought its action. In this case the Government gave notice to the Burmah Oil Company that they would not pay but would pass retrospective legislation.
  Sir. J. Foster: The Burmah Oil Company won its case in the House of Lords.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: In this case notice was given before the House of Lords' hearing. I understand that it was in fact given before the action was started.
  Mr. N. R. Wylie: As a matter of fact, was not the letter sent in the course of the hearing before the single judge? No decision in the initial hearing had been taken at the time the letter was written.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: At any rate, notice was given, and there was no point in prosecuting the action up to the House of Lords, because the Burmah Oil Company knew very well that if it won it would not get its money. The case is on all fours with Davey Paxman v. The Postmaster-General. Notice was given to the population at large to this effect "Do not bring any action against the Post Office. An Act will be passed". Then came the Wireless Telegraphy (Validation of Charges) Act, 1954. If it was justified then, as in my submission it was, it is justified now. Therefore, the Government having redeemed themselves by this margin, I shall vote for the Bill.
  7.29 p.m.
  Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith: I must, first, declare an interest, in that I hold a few shares in the Burmah Oil Company. Normally, this fact would have prevented me from seeking to catch the eye of the Chair, in case people thought that what animated me was the possibility of making a small personal gain. The reason why I take the risk of my action being misunderstood is that I feel very strongly that a great constitutional issue is at stake and that it would be cowardly of me, because of possible personal embarrassment, if I did not give expression to views about which I feel most strongly.
  I have listened to the arguments in the House today and I have read comments in the Press. It seems to me that part of what has been said is not entirely relevant to the constitutional issue which we have to decide tonight. I naturally
  1162
  accept what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster) said, because he was completely "on the ball" all the time. The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) suggested that because the Burmah Oil Company was a rich company it did not need compensation. Others have argued that because so much time has passed it was not worth bothering about.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury seemed to me to get very close to suggesting that there was something not quite above-board in the company bringing the action in the Scottish court because there was a 20-year period of limitation. But, of course, the Burmah Oil Company is a Glasgow company. The founder of the company had his home in my constituency. It was, therefore, the most natural thing in the world that the company should bring that action in a Scottish court.
  Other hon. Members have argued at great length and in a metaphysical way which I could not quite follow—the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) did so—that if the country did not share in the vast loss inflicted by enemy action in the course of battle, why should it share in the loss caused in anticipation of the enemy's advance? There are the possible effects which a Bill like this may have on foreign countries, which would be detrimental to our investments in those countries. There are interesting arguments on these points which we could go on discussing for a long time, but they seem to me to be side issues and to miss the main point.
  The important thing surely is this. The Burmah Oil Company felt that it had a right to compensation. This is denied by the Government. In those circumstances, the company did what any individual would do in the same circumstances when there is an argument as to who is right. It took the matter to the courts. In the end, it received judgment in its favour, stating that it was entitled to compensation. Nothing was said about the amount of compensation, and I understand that there are difficulties in proving precisely what the amount should be. But according to the highest court in this country, it has been decided that the company has a right to compensation, and it is this right, after

  1163
  judgment has been given in the company's favour, that the Government now intend to take from it by the Bill.
  Perhaps I should not say "the Government", because that possibly introduces a party political flavour which I should like to avoid, as if I were attacking this Government because it is a Socialist Government. I am not doing that at all. It is not because Her Majesty's present Government is a Socialist Government that I am attacking it. It is the Executive, the Crown, irrespective of party, that I am attacking. It is now seeking to deprive a subject of his rights which have been judicially established by due course of law. What appears to me to be wrong is that there seems to be a spirit in all Governments of all parties which is arrogant and dictatorial. It is a spirit of the Executive power, intolerant of any restraint upon what it considers is the proper course of action, and it is this spirit which, in the Commons, we have in the past always fought against; and it is this spirit which, quite clearly, we must continue to fight against.
  How could we, as Members of the House of Commons, submit to the arrogant assumption that the laws are there to bind the people, but are not there to bind the Crown? Surely, it was to establish this very rule of law, binding the Crown and the people alike, that the great constitutional conflict, to which the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) referred, was fought in this House in the seventeenth century. Yet, in spite of the triumphs of this House then, in spite of the success in achieving the rule of law, we have today the Crown, the Government, the Executive—call it what you like—seeking to act as arbitrarily as any Stuart king.
  Our predecessors in this House, who sat through the stormy Stuart times, and whose courage subordinated the whim of kings to the rule of law, would be horrified to think that this House, which has always been the champion of the subject against the Executive, should now become a docile instrument to rubber-stamp Executive decisions and give a kind of cloak of legality to the arbitrary spirit of power which seems to corrupt all Governments and which
  1164
  it is our duty in the House of Commons to curb and restrain within the confines of the rule of law.
  It is perfectly right on an ordinary party political issue for any Government to be able to crack the whip and to expect a ready response from its supporters. After all, in those circumstances, all that the Government would be doing would only be trying to implement its election policy. But to crack the whip today on this issue, in the year in which we are celebrating the 700th anniversary of Simon de Mont-fort's Parliament, which was set up to defend the subjects against the Crown and against the Sovereign, is surely an affront to all our democratic traditions.
  I hope very much that, when it comes to the vote tonight, hon. Members, wherever they sit, will feel that they are House of Commons men first and foremost, champions of the subject against the tyranny of the Executive today, just as much as ever their forefathers were, and that it is only when the rule of law is secure—and it cannot be secure if the Bill is passed—that they will allow themselves to submit their consciences to the dictates of their party Whips.
  7.38 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Lever: Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman), I came here with a very strong prejudice in favour of the Bill. First and foremost, the Attorney-General is the head of my chambers as well as being a close personal friend, and I thought that it must tell strongly in favour of the Bill if he was going to support it.
  Secondly, some of the arguments that I heard from the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) I heard in the Lobbies of this House, and they struck me as being somewhat ridiculous and intellectually contemptible. For example, it was stated with much emotion that this was a House of Lords decision. What has that got to do with it? There are not different grades of legal decisions. There is a legal decision in accordance with the law, and there is a legal decision not in accordance with the law, so to speak. It does not matter whether it is the Court of Appeal which has the final

  1165
  decision, or the House of Lords or the judge at first instance.
  Sir S. Summers: It matters a lot to the litigant.
  Mr. Lever: Perhaps I may be allowed to continue my speech. If a citizen obtains judgment, be it from the meanest county court judge or magistrates' court, that judgment, if it is not appealed against and remains a judgment, is lawful and binding within our system of law. It seems to me that the hon. Member for. Devon, North has fallen into the grave error, for which he rebuked others, of sentimentality when he was seeking to reinforce with emotion and sentiment his claim which could be raised simply on the point that this was a decision of law.
  Again, the same nonsensical permutations of computing how many judges said what and in which court is beside the point. The only point to be decided by the House is whether in certain circumstances a lawful judgment obtained by a citizen should be retrospectively set aside. It seems to me juvenile, nonsensical, if not intellectually contemptible to argue what the majority said or did not say, and who said what in which lower court or higher court or any court at all. The simple question that we have to decide is what we are to do about a judgment lawfully obtained and binding according to the system of law which we all respect, and whether in the circumstances we can properly and reasonably and retrospectively abrogate that decision.
  A similar mistake is to talk about what the minority judges said. When minority judges talk about anything except a legal decision, they are giving moral advice and it is only persuasive. It is not binding upon Members of this House, all of whom are capable of making decisions about the moral issues involved. The weight of what a judge says at any level lies in its legality whereby a citizen obtains a legal decision in his favour. Let us therefore discard majorities and minorities, the number of courts, who decided what and what the minority judges said about the morality of the matter. All these matters are beside the point.
  So is the dangling of ogres about the independence of the judiciary. The independence of the judiciary is not at stake. That would be threatened if the judges
  1166
  were under pressure from the Government that if they found one way or another they would be made to suffer because of Executive power. To tell a judge that if he finds in a particular way the Legislature will retrospectively or otherwise alter the claims, as the judge found them then to be, in no way interferes with the independence of the judiciary. We can, therefore, leave that out. As far as I can see, all the arguments for the Amendment go out of the window as being absolutely untenable.
  As I have said, I have the prejudice that the Attorney-General supported the Bill. I have the further prejudice that most of the opponents of the Bill are hon. Members opposite, but having listened to the argument I must say that it is not possible to sustain support for the Bill. One has only to list the arguments which have been made out. They completely convinced me that the Bill is bad. The arguments that convinced me were not those of those who moved and supported the Amendment but of those who sought to prove that the Bill is a just one. I shall recite them one by one, and it will be painfully obvious that nobody on the arguments advanced can support the Bill with a good conscience.
  First, there is what I might call the widow and orphan argument. This is like what Prudhomme said—that all property is theft. It is that when one contests anybody's claim to his property compared with the claim of a widow of a soldier who has died in defence of his country nobody has a claim to property. This is an argument for the confiscation of everybody's property and reapportioning it on a moral and not a legal basis. The trouble about the widow and orphan argument, therefore, is that one has to overthrow property rights and recreate them according to the anarchistic principles of whoever have the power to do the reallocation.
  Mr. William Yates: Is not that known as social justice?
  Mr. Lever: The hon. Member is confusing himself. That is not known as social justice. It consists in the legislative reapportionment of rights and burdens according to State power as wielded in a democratic society. That is not total repudiation of any property at any time on the ground that somebody at any given

  1167
  moment may have a moral claim to one's property as opposed to a legal claim.
  The widow and orphan argument is not discarded by me because it is a sentimental argument. Sentimental argument rather appeals to me. I would be inclined to accept the dictum that reason should always be the slave of the passions rather than the other way round. I reject this argument not because it is sentimental but because it would produce a state of affairs which to me and to most of my fellow citizens would be intolerable. I could advance it to the House only if I had adduced similar principles to my electors before they elected me, and I dare say that if I had done that my majority would have been diminished.
  Another argument, equally convincing in an opposite sense to that intended by those who advanced it, is that the claim made by the Burmah Oil Company was illogical and that the law was illogical in that a man should have a claim for denial damage and not battle damage. This is to me simply another way of saying that the law as established can be overruled if anybody thinks that a better law might have been enacted but was not at the time. Just as the widow and orphan claim calls all rights into question on the ground that somebody thinks that he has a better moral claim to one's property, so does this argument on the ground that someone finds an illogical way of legally depriving one of one's rights and giving them to others. This is a way of saying that people who suffer battle damage should get compensation as well as those who suffer denial. It only proves that one is attempting to overrule rational laws which have been established.
  It has been urged that this is a wealthy company. I did not know that anybody had yet gone as far as to suggest a means test for justice. It seems to me a singularly inappropriate argument to be heard in this Parliament. It has been said also that the ex gratia payment was generous and that we must not forget that. These were the arguments which persuaded me to dislike the Bill. They were all without exception advanced in support of the Bill but not necessarily by the Government.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne pointed out that we
  1168
  should not forget the considerable ex gratia payments which have been made. I confess that in deciding whether or not an action is right it is hardly an argument to say that the man who is alleged to be unrighteous has made an ex gratia payment in respect of that unrighteousness. Even King David did not urge in his self-defence for stealing Naboth's vineyard that he made a substantial ex gratia payment. I do not know how the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne commends itself to the House of Commons, but I do not think that King David would have commended himself very strongly to the prophet Nathan if he had sought to produce that argument.
  Some of my hon. Friends have convinced themselves that Parliament in 1945 or 1946 would have passed retrospective legislation. All that is exceedingly hypothetical. What it has to do with this point which we are discussing today completely escapes me. It would have been very important to argue what Parliament should do in 1945—in 1945. I am by no means saying that we can establish a principle that never in any circumstances may the State retrospectively deprive a citizen of his rights. I think that there are such cases, though very few, and the prima facie presumption is strongly against retrospection being justified. Nevertheless, as I say, one cannot establish an iron-clad rule that in no circumstances could Parliament retrospectively take away a citizen's rights or confiscate his property.
  Incidentally, to revert to the wealthy company argument, there is a case which, I suggest, would be more appropriate to come from these benches. If one feels that this wealthy company's compensation ought to be paid by other wealthy companies, that is a respectable argument. It might be said that we should pay this compensation, which is just, but we would raise the money by a tax on other companies so that all companies shared the burden. That is a fair enough argument. It would be a matter of social justice, to revert to the point made by the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. William Yates). It would be a political argument in which we could engage after the judgment had been honoured, an argument about the apportionment of liability among other companies rather than upon widows and

  1169
  orphans. It would be a question of social justice, but it is not the question which we are discussing now.
  I am not impressed either by the argument that the Japanese would have destroyed this propery anyway. To go back to the case of Naboth's vineyard, it would hardly have helped King David in his argument with the prophet if he had said that he had reason to believe that there were robbers in the neighbourhood who were going to destroy the vineyard anyway and that he, King David, had merely anticipated them. The fact is that it was King David who took the vineyard and it was he who had to answer for it to the Prophet Nathan.
  Mr. Richard: Was King David at war over the vineyard or was it a domestic dispute?
  Mr. Lever: The question of whether he was at war or not is beside the point. What is in question is the righteousness of the matter. I am not saying that there is not a point at which it is necessary to decide whether one is at war or not. But it is necessary here to stick to the arguments which are relevant, and the relevant question here is whether, because of the wartime circumstance, the Government can exculpate themselves from liability. It adds nothing to the point to say that the property would have been lost just the same or that most of it would have been lost. This would be a matter going to the amount of compensation. It is not a matter going to the question whether one should pay compensation or not. The Bill provides t Pat there shall be no compensation. It does not provide that there shall be only a little because the Japanese would have destroyed more or less of it. This is why it seems to me that my Naboth's vineyard case seems more to the point.
  Mr. Patrick Jenkin: For the sake of religious and historical accuracy, was it not Ahab who took Naboth's vineyard, and was not the object of King David's affections the wife of Uriah the Hittite?
  Mr. Lever: I hope the House will be indulgent with me. This is not a prepared speech. I came here ready to be an obedient and respectful supporter of
  1170
  the Government, and these Biblical parallels have occurred to me in considering the argument. I admit that it was Bathsheba, but if, instead of to the vineyard, I referred to the beautiful Bathsheba, the principle would remain the same, and the amount of compensation would probably be greater.
  Mr. Taverne: Would it have been a claim in denial?
  Mr. Lever: The right hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) appeared to make the remarkable assertion that one could never have retrospection, going so far as to say that one might not even regard as righteous those other occasions when people receive a retrospective gift from the Government. There is no possible analogy with a retrospective gift from the Government, which is freely consented to. No one is obliged to take it. It is like Members' salaries. No one can resent it if, retrospectively or otherwise, he has his salary raised as a Member of the House. He is not obliged to take it. The same applies to retrospective gifts. What is objectionable in retrospection which confiscates is that it is done coercively to deprive a man of what he seeks to have, namely, his property awarded to him by the court.
  I am sorry to spend so much time destroying arguments which I regard as not valid. There is only one argument of some validity, and that was the one advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne when he rightly said that what we are considering is not a judicial matter but a political matter, namely, ought we to confiscate this claim which has been adjudged to belong to the Burmah Oil Company? In deciding it, we have to realise that it is a political matter of the highest importance not to bring into contempt the whole system of law which we have erected and the rights of property which we have in this country where we live, trade and pass property one to another, from father to son, and so on. In a country such as ours, it seems to me that one needs the strongest possible argument for destroying by retrospection this kind of claim established by the courts after full discussion and argument.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) thinks that the

  1171
  letter sent by the Treasury Solicitor excuses what is proposed and urges it in favour of a political decision to destroy the Burmah Oil Company's claim. With respect, this produces the opposite result in my mind. Once accept that the Treasury Solicitor is entitled to write to citizens saying, "Do not trouble to have your claim litigated because we shall take retrospective action afterwards", what claim is secure against the Government thereafter? It erects bluff and menace into a political principle.
  I am sure that the Treasury Solicitor acted in good faith, intending to be candid and fair to the Burmah Oil Company, and I do not criticise his good intentions. But to approve that action and say that it is desirable, even justifying retrospection thereafter, seems to me to approve something which would be an even greater menace than retrospection without the letter of warning. It would encourage Government Departments to assume a right which they have not got, namely, to anticipate what Parliament will do and compel the citizen to obey not what is the law but what Government Departments threaten they will make the law. This is to coerce and intimidate the citizen from even bringing his claim across the threshold of the court. How could lawyers advise their clients in such circumstances, faced not with an interpretation of the law as it is but with the threat of a Government Department that it would alter the law in a manner which would enable the State to evade its liability?
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: Would my hon. Friend say that the Davey Paxman case was also a matter of threat and coercion when the notice was given that no further claims would be entertained because the total was £360 million?
  Mr. Lever: I am sorry to go on for so long, but I must deal with that point since it has been raised. Paxman's case exactly illustrates the mischief about which I am talking. All that my hon. Friend proved by the Paxman case—I hope that the House is seized of the facts—was that there had been a successful bluff by the Treasury Solicitor which deterred other people from getting the £150 back which the Paxman plaintiff very properly and successfully got. When the Paxman decision was obtained, the
  1172
  Government did not have the courage to come to the House of Commons and say that they wanted retrospectively to take that claim away.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: They did. They passed an Act, the Wireless Telegraphy (Validation of Charges) Act. They gave notice that they were going to pass that Act so that people were not led into a false sense of security and the belief that they would get back the —150 which the Post Office then owed.
  Mr. Lever: But this is precisely the point. They did not retrospectively take away the judgment which the Paxman plaintiff had been awarded. It is another argument to say that the House might feel that it ought retrospectively to deprive people of claims for which they had not got judgments, but that is not this case. But that is not what this Bill seeks to do. The fundamental point of the Bill is to deprive someone who has already got a judgment of his claim, which is exactly what the Paxman retrospective legislation did not do. It did not deprive the established judgment of the claim.
  There is another mischief in the Bill. We all know that this is not a Measure to change the common law for any future war or to protect the Government from innumerable cloudy, inchoate claims. It is to deprive one company of one judgment established by law in the courts after argument.
  Mr. MacDermot indicated dissent.
  Mr. Lever: My hon. and learned Friend shakes his head, but we can test that point in a simple way. If an Amendment to exempt that judgment from the Bill was successful, the Government would not waste the printers' ink necessary to proceed with the Bill, because the Burmah Oil Company judgment is the only judgment to be affected by it.
  Mr. MacDermot: My hon. Friend keeps assuming that a judgment has been obtained. No judgment has been obtained. A ruling has been given on a preliminary point of law.
  Mr. Lever: This is judgment on a preliminary point of law. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It was a plea of demurrer, as I understand it. The object of the Bill is to deal with the judgment on demurrer

  1173
  found in favour of the Burmah Oil Company. If that were to be excluded from tae Bill most hon. Members would vote far it. But if it were to be excluded the Government would not waste the printers' ink necessary to proceed with the Bill. They would not have brought it forward in the first place.
  We should be clear about this. This is not a general alteration of the law at all but a Bill to deprive the Burmah Oil Company of the benefit of the judgment given in its favour in the House of Lords. That judgment would not necessarily be followed by an award of damages, for flat would remain to be decided in accordance with law.
  The letter I have referred to shows the whole point of our discussions—indeed, the only point we are discussing. It concerns what should be done by the Government when, faced with a situation in which they feel obliged, in the public interest, to confiscate by retrospective legislation the right of a citizen. The answer clearly is that they must go immediately to the House of Commons and seek its permission by legislation to deprive the citizen of the claim. To put a letter on the file is what the Government simply must not do. They must nail their colours to the mast.
  The Government may feel that they have a good legal answer to the claim in which case they must stand and fight the claim and, if they lose, pay it. Or they must say, "We must protect ourselves by retrospective legislation." What they are not entitled to do, and what, if they do it, brings into dubiety our whole system of law and the rights of a citizen against a Department of the Crown, is to seek to have it both ways, for they do so not only at the expense of the citizen but also at the expense of our system of law.
  It does not matter very much whether the Burmah Oil Company gets a few millions of £s or not. What matters is whether the Government behave in a manner consistent with our system of law of completely defy that system of law under which our property and judicial rights are established by taking away a right judicially established after a protracted fight by the Government.
  For these reasons, I cannot support the Bill. I wish, however, to make it plain that it is an unfortunate legacy saddled
  1174
  on this Government by the last Administration. Both Governments and both parties are responsible for this, but that cannot make the legislation any more palatable to the House.
  8.6 p.m.
  Sir Richard Thompson: The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, as he has listened to the debate, must have realised, if he did not realise at the outset, that he has introduced a Bill which no one really wants, although I do not doubt that if it is taken into the Division Lobbies the Whips will enable him to get most of his supporters in on his side. I think that he would be the first to acknowledge that many of them, to judge by their speeches, will go through with heavy hearts and leadened feet.
  Most of the arguments we have heard today have been almost purely legal, some of which I have found it difficult to follow. I do not propose to go over the legal and constitutional arguments which have been put much better by hon. Members on both sides of the House. What I want to apply myself to is the practical question of where we go now, what we do with this unlovely Bill, about which even those who profess to support it have clearly indicated that they have the gravest misgivings.
  The Bill presents us with a dilemma. For the Government, it means introducing retrospective legislation of a most reprehensible and even shocking kind. But they are not the only people in the dilemma. In fact, the Opposition are also in something of a dilemma, because it has been said—and I have never heard it contradicted—that the Bill was drafted by the previous Government, so to that extent it must be presumed—indeed, we have had one or two speeches from this side today to that effect—that some hon. Members on this side of the House are, perhaps, in favour of this legislation. On the other hand, for most of us on this side—I am sure that I am right in saying this—it does mean disowning, as it were, a Bill for the parentage of which some responsibility did rest on us when we were responsible for these matters.
  So the Government are embarrassed and the Opposition are, to some extent, embarrassed. For the Burmah Oil Company it means, if the Bill goes through, the denial of its right to compensation

  1175
  which, after about 20 years of litigation, it has fought through the courts and which it believed it had. For Parliament as a whole, it means a dilemma, too. We all dislike in our bones, whether we admit it or not, these large encroachments by the Executive. It is not, if I may put it so, what we are here to put up with. Outside the House, British trade and industry and enterprise overseas must get a chilly feeling when the House seeks to legislate in this way. I would regard the Bill as a deadly blow to confidence, particularly for those enterprises which function mainly overseas.
  If we are honest with ourselves, we will admit that the real reason for the Bill is not political and has nothing to do with justice, but is a matter of pure economics. The Government—and their predecessors were probably in rather the same plight—are not prepared to contemplate paying the possibly enormous sum which might arise if nothing were done. That might be a very bad reason for legislating in this way, but it is a practical difficulty which we have to take into account in our discussions.
  I suspect that there is also the feeling that to do nothing might involve sparking off a number of other claims. I am not sure that that is a very strong argument, for I understand that most of them are time barred anyway. However, I believe that it is the economic argument which has motivated the Bill. Although it may be nothing to do with the law the amount seems to be rather important.
  The Financial Secretary produced a number of largely hypothetical figures, in one case going up to a notional £100 million or so. I am sure that that is grossly overstating what the Government might have to find in compensation if nothing were done. The correspondence in this connection which I have studied suggests a figure of £20 million. I do not know what validity that has, but I am sure that the Burmah Oil Company would be very ready to compromise, or to discuss the amount of compensation if it were once accepted that some kind of out-of-court settlement, as it were, could be made.
  I very much hope that we do not have to go into the Division Lobbies on this issue tonight. The Financial Secretary must be feeling rather unhappy at the
  1176
  Bill's reception and hon. Members of his own party would probably be as relieved as most of us on this side of the House if this rotten old albatross were not around their necks. In this situation we have to be a little more flexible.
  How can we get out of this difficulty without too much discredit all round? I am tempted to say that the simple way is to abandon the Bill, but I do not delude myself into thinking that that is a solution which will commend itself to the Government. On the other hand, something has to be done. I suggest that the Financial Secretary should adjourn the debate, or find some other device so that we do not have to take a decision tonight. Let him send an emissary to the Burmah Oil Company, or ring up the company and tell it to send someone to him, and let him frankly say, "We are in a jam. We do not want to introduce this hateful retrospective legislation. The House does not like it and I am having difficulty persuading my own side to support me on it. Can we not reach some sensible accommodation and then get our lawyers to work to put it in a form which will be perfectly respectable?"
  I concede that the Treasury would have a fit at any such suggestion of such a practical approach. One can imagine the pursed lips and wagging heads, but the Treasury should be pressed. After all, the legal advisers produce some bad advice and it is now up to them to get the Government out of this mess. Unofficial conversations should start between the company and the Government about a figure. It need not be called compensation and need not have any name like that. It could be called a pat on the back for a contribution to the export trade. The Government would find that the company would accept a sum vastly less than the airy-fairy figures which have been tossed about the Chamber tonight.
  Mr. Antony Buck: Perhaps an alternative formula to effect a settlement in this matter might be for the hon. and learned Gentleman to give an undertaking that in Committee the Government would move an Amendment to take the retrospection out of the Bill. The Financial Secretary has indicated that he does not regard the. Bill as being a Measure to disentitle the Burmah Oil Company to its claim and the natural

  1177
  logical following on from that would seem to be that there would be no objection to not making the Bill retrospective. If it were not retrospective, there might be no need for a Division tonight.
  Sir R. Thompson: I am grateful for that helpful intervention. My hon. Friend is plainly of the same mind as I am. We have to use a flexible approach if we are to salve our own consciences and do the right thing by the country and the company.
  Mr. Gilbert Longden: My hon. Friend keeps talking about salving our own consciences on these benches. I ask for information when I ask whether our consciences are at fault. I knew nothing whatever about the Bill when it was drafted by my own party. Ought I to have known? If there was no reason why I should have known, why should my conscience be uneasy?
  Sir R. Thompson: I can easily answer that. In referring to consciences, I was speaking of the collective feeling of the House, which does not like doing anything which enlarges the power of the Executive.
  Mr. Longden: In that case, my hon. Friend will agree that it is better for us to vote against the Bill and throw it out.
  Sir R. Thompson: I am perfectly ready to vote against the Bill tonight, and intend to do so, but I fear that in that case the Government may possibly win the day. If they do, the matter may get worse than it is now. The point of my argument is to suggest that the Government should have a more flexible approach and either embark on negotiations with the company, as I have suggested, or support the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Buck). What I want to avoid is putting ourselves into a posture so that the Government use their strength in the Lobby to make the position irretrievable. It would be much better if we could avoid that by being more flexible and opening negotiations.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I hope that the Attorney-General will consider this very seriously. Is my hon. Friend considering an additional ex gratia
  1178
  payment as a possible alternative to any idea of compensation as established in law? The Financial Secretary said that the £4·7 million was the company's share of a total of £10 million some years ago and seemed to indicate that that was a reasonable form of compensation for what happened during the war, although most of us on this side of the House would say that that was intended not as compensation, but as rehabilitation for Burma.
  Is my hon. Friend now proposing—if so, I would certainly support him—that the figure suggested to us by the company this morning, when it said that it was thinking of a figure of about £20 million, and would be prepared to set the ex gratia £4·7 million against that, say, about £15 million, should be paid in addition to the £4·7 million?
  Sir R. Thompson: I would rather not be drawn on how much it might be. I would rather not be drawn on the precise name to be applied to it, because that might apparently admit a liability which the Government might not wish to admit. I am concerned not so much with the form of things as that there should be a negotiated payment. If the Government were ready to negotiate, they would find the company very ready to respond. After all, if the Bill goes through, then, apart from all the consequential damage, the company will get nothing at all.
  I put forward that suggestion because there is a practical side to all this which is different from the constitutional and legal arguments which we have heard. I hope that it is the argument of common sense and equity and that it will commend itself to the House. There are the seeds of an honourable solution here and I hope that it will commend itself to the House and the Government.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I feel proud to be able to take part in this debate, as I feel that this is the House of Commons at its best, challenging the power of the Executive, which has for long been our traditional rôle. This is what we are here for, and one could not have a better battleground than this Bill. I regard this as a very nasty little Bill. It ought never to have seen the light of day. It was conceived, if I may say so, in dishonour and it ought

  1179
  to have been strangled at birth. I hope that this evening we will strangle it.
  It is not for me to criticise the correctness or otherwise of the speeches in the House of Lords, although anyone who has read, as I have, the speech of Lord Reid cannot but have been impressed by the weight of authority with which he reinforced his decision and by the logic of the arguments which he deployed. One's conviction that a right decision on the law as it stood was reached is only marginally shaken by the very powerful judgment of Lord Radcliffe.
  One point which it has been attempted to make slightly in the House and, to some extent, outside is that the company's case lacks merit because it succeeded in bringing the matter before the courts by chance, using the law of Scotland because it happened to be registered in Scotland and had a registered office in Glasgow. That, of course, is not so. On the substance of the legal point on which the House of Lords decided, all five learned Law Lords expressed the view that the law of Scotland and the law of England were exactly the same and that had the case been brought in in the English courts their decision would have been the same.
  I entirely concede that Lord Radcliffe approached the matter from the other end. He said that the law of England would never have admitted such a right and, therefore, the law of Scotland did not, either.
  Mr. MacDermot: The substantive law was accepted by both sides as being the same, and the judges so held. The procedural law is different. If the claim had been brought in the English courts it would have been statute-barred. But I am not making any complaint, or suggesting that there was an impropriety in the Burmah Oil Company bringing its claim in the Scottish courts. It was perfectly entitled to do so.
  Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to the Financial Secretary. The only relevance of the Scottish law is that in Scotland there was a 20-year limitation period and not the six-year limitation period which would have applied in England. Had this been a Bill to bring these two limitation periods into line, although
  1180
  I have no knowledge of the reasons why the Scottish law has maintained the 20-year period, I should have thought it was a reasonable reform. But this is not so. What the House of Lords decided was that the company's case was well-founded.
  A further point which one must make is that this is not, in a sense, something new. When any court, and still more the highest court in the land, gives a judgment, what it is saying is that this is the law, that it has always been the law—and was the law in 1942 in this case. This is the element of retrospection.
  One of the points which the Financial Secretary made was that no compensation had been paid to claimants in cases like this before. I think that the point has already been made that until the Crown Proceedings Act, 1947, this could hardly have happened. There were one or two cases which managed to reach the courts without there having to be an action in tort against the Crown, such as the Attorney-General v. De Keypers Royal Hotel and one or two others. For the most part, the action would never have got off the ground. Ever since the reign of Queen Anne the position has been largely governed by Statute. Of course, it is open to Parliament to change the law. The Taff Vale judgment and Osborne v. Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants are perfectly good cases in point. We will consider the Rookes v. Barnard case in a few days. Parliament is entitled to do this, but not so as to defeat accrued rights.
  The second point which has been made is that the claim which the Bill seeks to defeat is devoid of merit and that it is based on a legal technicality. The hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) dwelt on this point at some length, saying that a very artificial distinction is drawn between compensation for denial damage and compensation for battle damage. The learned Law Lords did not feel that the case was devoid of merit, particularly the Lord President, in the Inner House, in Edinburgh, and Lord Radcliffe, in his dissenting judgment in the House of Lords. Both went out of their way to indicate that they felt that the company had a very strong moral claim.
  The fact of the matter is that there is a narrow and, it may seem, artificial and,

  1181
  indeed, illogical line drawn between compensation for denial damage and compensation for battle damage. If one looks at the line through a microscope, as it were, and ignores the areas on both sides of it, it is difficult to defend. But once we accept the broad proposition which the House of Lords accepted that the Crown cannot take the property of any subject for use or destruction without giving compensation—and this applies to the most obvious case, the occupation of land, or the taking of supplies, the right of purveyance, and so on, right through to the destruction of property to prevent it from falling into the hands of the enemy—but that it does not extend to property destroyed in battle, one is reaching the point at which the line must be drawn.
  The line must be drawn somewhere, and inevitably this is the point at which it has been drawn. Illogical it may be, but if one looks through the spectrum of the circumstances in which these rights can arise, it is not too illogical.
  It has been suggested, and was suggested in the letter from the Treasury Solicitor sent in 1962, that this was a claim which ought not to be met by the British taxpayer. Why not? Ever since the reign of Queen Anne, when the Legislature has given powers to take property supplanting the prerogative powers of the Crown it has always legislated for compensation. This was done in the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, and one can go right the way back. It has always been felt that the community as a whole should bear the cost of defending the country in time or in threat of war and that this should not fall on the people whose property is taken or whose land is used or property destroyed.
  It is sometimes said that this would create a precedent and that if the Burmah claim were admitted, there would be other heavy claims. It is questionable whether this would be so. They must be all statute-barred by now. The argument, however, which says that we cannot be just to a man because that would mean that we would have to be just to a lot of other people as well seems to me to be an argument with singularly little merit.
  The fact is—and here I come to a very important point—that there is a precedent for the Crown paying compensation to an oil company for denial damage as a
  1182
  result of damage done during the last war. I will quote a short passage from the Sarawak Gazette of 7th June, 1949 and I shall be grateful if the Attorney-General will comment on these facts when he replies. I quote from a report of a war compensation scheme commission which was active in that part of the world.
  After referring to the total amount of money paid by the Government, it states that
  "Of this total of 57 million dollars, 40 million dollars is represented by claims in respect of oil extracted from the wells or burnt in the wells by the enemy and it has been decided that claims of this nature are not admissible from any industry."
  That is battle damage.
  "Payment has been made to the oil companies by His Majesty's Government for the destruction carried out by themselves and the British Malayan Petroleum Company has, in addition, benefited considerably by the remission in Brunei of import duty on replacement machinery."
  Compensation was paid in that case for denial damage and, apparently, it is not intended that that compensation should be repaid. Why is it that, now, this Burmah case, which came up to the House of Lords and was decided in this country for damage in an exactly similar case in Burma, should be thought to be so wrong that this unfortunate piece of retrospective legislation should be introduced?
  I should like to ask the Attorney-General a couple of questions. The Bill seeks to abolish the right to compensation in common law in the circumstances envisaged but it does not, apparently, at the same time seek to abolish the prerogative right of the Crown to demand that destruction be wrought or property be taken. Is Parliament to be asked to make this a statutory power? If so, why not in this Bill? If we are to be asked, as has been done so often in the past, to convert a prerogative and, therefore, inevitably a somewhat uncertain power into a defined and certain statutory power, are we to be asked to do it with no right of compensation? Parliament has never been asked to do this before. It would be quite unprecedented.
  My second question, which I have already adumbrated, is why it was possible to compensate the British Malayan Petroleum Company and yet to say in the

  1183
  Treasury Solicitor's letter, and to repeat again today, that the British taxpayer "ought" not to compensate the Burmah Oil Company?
  The real mischief of the Bill, as so many hon. Members have said, is its retrospective element. Parliament is supreme, but this carries with it a corresponding duty upon us to act with extreme circumspection. We must be very slow to alter with retroactive force the legal basis on which subjects have acted and have determined their rights.
  Some attempt was made—I am surprised this has not been referred to earlier—by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to argue that the retrospective element is irrelevant in this case because in 1942 no one's mind was directed to the question of whether he would get compensation. As the hon. and learned Gentleman rightly said, in moments of supreme crisis of that sort nobody thinks of that; it did not enter anybody's mind. The hon. and learned Gentleman attempted to argue from this that, therefore, no injustice is done if the Bill is made retrospective so as to abolish the right. I regard that as a wholly improper argument and quite irrelevant to the case.
  It has been said over and over again that ignorance of the law is no excuse if one commits a breach of the criminal code. In exactly the same way, ignorance of the law should never be used as a means of depriving a subject of his right to benefit under the law. Still more should we hesitate to legislate to make a retrospective interference with the rights of the subject when these rights have been judicially determined by the courts. We have strict rules about anyone's attempting interference with the judicial process, and very severe penalties for anyone who does. Indeed, one judge referred to it some years ago as "poisoning the fount of justice at its source", and so it is.
  In exactly the same way, any retrospective intereference with judicial process is just as much a poisoning of the fount of justice, and none the less to be deplored, when it happens to be done by due legislative process. The French jurist Montesquieu based his celebrated doctrine of the separation of powers on the British constitution—and, as all constitutional lawyers know well, sadly misunderstood our constitution; but in one matter
  1184
  he was absolutely right, and that is, the separation of the powers of the Executive and of the Judiciary.
  A Bill such as this, with the express intent to overrule retrospectively a decision of the House of Lords, is dangerous because it blurs that very necessary separation and legal safeguard. Parliament, I say, should be extremely chary of the way in which it exercises its powers in this regard.
  I started by saying that this was a nasty Bill. Nothing I have heard in the debate this afternoon has convinced me otherwise. I sincerely hope the House will not give it a Second Reading. I think that it was Disraeli who said that nothing that is morally wrong can be politically right. If we throw out this Bill tonight I can imagine that wily old Jew looking out of his window in Heaven with pleasure and with approval in his eyes, smiling down on us and saying, "Well done".
  8.37 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: I think we must all agree that this debate so far has really been a field day for hon. and learned Members. I shall not attempt to intervene in the legal niceties of the argument, but I want very briefly to put to the House what I believe to be the view of the man in the street, and I think that anyone who has looked at the correspondence columns of The Times has seen where his opinion lies. It is definitely opposed to this Bill.
  The principle which we have all been discussing is that of retrospective legislation. It cannot be denied that this Bill is designed not only to introduce retrospective legislation but deliberately to prevent the payment of compensation, which payment has, as far as I understand, in the opinion of the highest court of the land been justified, and that seems to me to be wholly wrong.
  The facts are not in dispute. In 1942 the military gave legal orders to carry out demolitions, and the people who carried them out were embodied in Her Majesty's Forces. There are precedents for compensation. The first, and it has been referred to by hon. Gentlemen who have spoken earlier, is the case of the Roumanian oilfields in the First World War. From what I understood from what was said about it earlier this afternoon, the courts ruled that compensation was payable, but implementation of

  1185
  the judgment was strung out so long by the Government of the day that the company went into liquidation. However, I do not think that that invalidates the case as a precedent. Then there was the question of the Sarawak company in the Second World War, which has also just been mentioned, and there again compensation was paid.
  I made some inquiries the other day to see what happened rather nearer home. We all remember Dunkirk. We remember the photographs of the oil installations in Dunkirk going up at the time of the withdrawal. I wondered very much whether the French Government had paid compensation for those oil installations, and on inquiry I found that under law passed in 1946—Articles 9 and 35—they paid compensation for the destruction of these installations and buildings and also for three months' stock.
  Again another example, nearer us, perhaps not in geography but in time. The House will remember that in 1962 India was threatened with invasion by China. The company which we are discussing today, or a subsidiary of it, has oilfields near the India-China frontier. I am told that during that time preparations were made by the Indian Government to have the oilfields, or the oil installations, demolished in case the Chinese overran them. It was clear then that the Indian Government were prepared to pay compensation to the company should it be necessary to blow up those oilfields. There are, therefore, four clear precedents to show that the Bill is wrong and that compensation is morally justified.
  I think that the company has acted properly. It carried out litigation in Burma on the advice of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. It then carried cut further litigation in Scotland, and finally it went to the House of Lords. Now we have this Bill, and the reason for it is that the highest court in the land has decided in favour of the company. As I understand it, the basic argument is that justice is too expensive, that we cannot afford to pay this large claim to one company, and therefore we are asked to approve this Bill to make the law what the Government thought it was because it now finds its advisers were wrong in their advice—advisers on both Front Benches—and that, in fact, the
  1186
  company was right in its supposition with regard to the actual legal position.
  I should like to refer to the question of cost, because people who have airily discussed this matter have talked about precedents that will cost the country hundreds of millions of pounds I think that the Financial Secretary referred to a figure somewhat nearer £100 million. But this is not a question of war damage. We are not concerned with war damage which, as we know, could amount to astronomical figures. The company thinks that it can justify a claim of £31 million, but the Carter Commission was set up to try to assess the real value of the damage, and it was on this Commission's report that the ex gratia payment of £5 million which has been referred to was reached. The Commission said that the approximate figure for the damage done by denial, not by bombing, was about £17½ million. I do not know what the company has in mind, but it seems that £17½ million is about the right figure, from which one might well deduct £5 million ex gratia payment. I think, therefore, that in terms of money the maximum figure that we are contemplating is about £12½ million.
  What strikes me so forcibly is that, as I understand it, the Government have not approached the company to try to reach some settlement on the lines suggested by several of my hon. Friends. Had they done so, I imagine that they could have reached some agreement with the company about a figure which would not, presumably, beggar the Treasury, which would fulfil what the company felt could be regarded as a just settlement, and it would not then have been necessary to bring in this Bill which introduces this bad principle—and we are all agreed that it is a bad principle—of retrospective legislation.
  It has been asked, though not in this debate, why should one company get this large sum; why should the taxpayer finance big business? I understand that the stockholders of this company number 134,000, of which 131,000 are individuals, and that of those 131,000, 95,000 hold stock worth £500 or less, so we are not really dealing with one large company, but with a large number of small individuals.
  I believe that the Bill will have a detrimental effect on the Commonwealth

  1187
  and on our relations with certain foreign countries. I think that it will decrease the likelihood of British investment in frontier areas—I gave the House the example of the China-India war. I think that a lot of people will feel that we in Parliament have set aside the rule of law; that we have used war as an excuse to do so.
  But if we accept that, where do we go next? Are we going later to make the excuse of a national emergency? Is a national emergency always to be a question of military combat of some kind, including a civil war, or could it be just an economic emergency? Are we really saying that we are giving the State the right, in certain circumstances which are undefined, to take over property without compensation?
  I am not suggesting that that is what the Bill actually provides, but that is what the average man in the street, and certainly the average Government abroad, will believe. I believe that it will be very detrimental to British interests abroad. Certain Governments are only too pleased to follow the example of this House. I think back to the examples of nationalisation we had under the new Government after 1945, which were followed by Abadan.
  If we introduce retrospective legislation of this type many Governments may take the opportunity to use it as a precedent to default on debts, or to take over the property of British subjects which happen to be in their country. I think of the claims that we have made against the United Arab Republic and other Governments. Many new African Governments would very much like to introduce retrospective legislation if they thought it proper and if there was a good precedent for it. If the Mother of Parliaments does it, why should they not follow its example?
  I sum up by saying that we are asked not to recognise the law as it stands because to do so will be rather expensive for the Treasury. This is an argument of expediency, and I do not believe that it is justified. The principle involved is of great importance, and the effect of breaking it will be far-reaching and wholly detrimental to British interests throughout the world. I hope, therefore, that the House will reject the Bill.
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Gardner: I do not like the Bill. I view it with distaste, and I believe that most back benchers of all parties view it with distaste, with varying degrees of intensity. The reason I dislike it, and why I believe the majority of back benchers dislike it, is that its purpose has been deliberately concealed by the Government. The Bill is not brought in with the intention merely of amending the law in order to remove an anomaly which most of us would recognise, and perhaps some of us would say ought to be removed; it is brought in for the primary purpose of defeating the right of a company to a claim which has been upheld by the supreme court of this country. That I find quite repugnant.
  The arguments of expediency which have been adduced by the Government—as delivered from the Dispatch Box today by the Financial Secretary—are quite disreputable. To say that there will be other claims if this one is allowed is merely to say—as one of my hon. Friends has remarked—that we do not want justice to be done in this case, or that case, or any other case. I am not concerned with how much the ultimate claim of the company, or of any other company or individual, will be; whether it be 6s., £6 or £60 million, the principle is unassailable.
  This is a right that has been determined after the most careful and exhaustive examination of the law, and it is a right that ought to stand in relation to the company that is claiming it. It is a right that has now been in existence for 23 years, and to bring in a Bill at this stage for the purpose of destroying that right, under the guise of a piece of legislation aimed at removing an anomaly relating to war damage, battle damage, or denial damage, seems to me to be sophistry of the most dangerous kind.
  It has been argued by hon. Members opposite that we ought to approach this as a political problem. It has been conceded, certainly by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman), that the law, as it was—if I may say so with respect—so brilliantly displayed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster), was correct. But, it is said, this is politics and this matter should be treated as a political decision. It has always seemed

  1189
  to me that politics has a supreme and a clear aim. I hope that those of us who come here to serve this House, and to pursue the philosophy embodied in polices, have as our principal aim the pursuit of justice, and that politics has its basis, its excuse and its reason in the ambition to achieve the maximum amount of justice for the maximum number of people.
  Accepting that, let us look at this politically. Suppose, as has been suggested, that this claim, were it allowed and not defeated by the Bill—as it will be if the Bill is accepted—were to cost the Government about £20 million. That is a great deal of money, but, in all gravity, I submit that the reputation of this country throughout the world as an upholder of the rule of law is worth very much more than £20 million—it is priceless. Once we show ourselves so facile in our approach to problems of this kind Coat we can conceive legislation to defeat well-founded claims, what is there to prevent that from being taken as an example by other countries throughout the world and in the Commonwealth?
  That is a danger which I believe the Government ought to recognise. It ought to be a brake upon any indiscriminate legislation of this kind. I submit that foe only way in which this legislation could be made acceptable would be to remove, or to give an undertaking to remove, the retrospective aspect of the Bill by saying that we shall not proceed with Clause 1(2) but content ourselves with Clause 1(1), the first part, dealing with the removal of an anomaly in law.
  This is eminently a matter, it would seem, for back bench Members. This provides an opportunity for hon. Members on the back benches of both sides of the House to show that they do not sit idly in this Chamber without any influence. This is a thoroughly bad Bill and back benchers on both sides should take good care to destroy it.
  8.53 p.m.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I first became interested in this matter very soon after the Second World War. One of my constituents—he is now dead—raised the matter in his capacity as a shareholder in the Burmah Oil Company. I hope that I am not in any way saying anything derogatory of the dead if I say that he was a somewhat bucolic character.
  1190
  I cannot remember his indignation—which was frequently expressed to me on other subjects—ever being greater than when he referred to this question. He was aware of what the company had had to do on Government instructions. As a shareholder, he considered this a matter which should be dealt with fairly by the Government of the day.
  If hon. Members have studied the Questions asked and Answers given, and the Adjournment debates which took place during the period of the 1945–50 Parliament, they will agree, I think, that at that time Sir Stafford Cripps was saying that this was a matter in which the Government wished first to ensure that the Burma Government would do all it should and then to leave it open—as I understood it—as to what would happen in the event of the failure of the company's claim against the Burma Government. As far as I know—and I hope the Attorney-General will answer this—the company was never told that if the claim against the Burma Government failed the British Government would not be prepared to consider the matter any further. The fact remains that the company acted on the advice of His Majesty's Government and pursued the claim with the Burma Government. The Burma Government and Burma courts would not have it. One can understand that, perhaps, because I suppose that the present law of Burma might possibly be so framed as to exclude everything which happened before its present establishment. Nevertheless, once that decision has been arrived at, there is a clear alternative open to the Government of the day in the United Kingdom; either the Government follow what has been the normal practice, I think since Tudor times, and certainly since the time of Queen Anne, or the Government say. "We prefer this not to be dealt with through the courts and we shall deal with it on its merits in an ex gratia manner." These are the alternatives before the Government.
  Why I think this debate is so important is because not only are we dealing with the conduct of a Government trying to reverse the decision of the House of Lords, sitting as the final court of appeal, but we are also getting a sense of obligation of an outgoing Government to an incoming one. I have always assumed that no expressed intention is irrevocable

  1191
  until it has been implemented. Whatever the last Government may have said about its intention in the event of the House of Lords supporting the company's claim, the intention had not been implemented at the time of the outgoing of the last Government. If I had been a member of the last Government—which was extremely unlikely—I should certainly not regard myself in the least bound, especially when I knew that circumstances have changed very considerably.
  It would seem to me that the one thing which has come out absolutely clearly is that the intention which was expressed by the last Government has been changed or qualified very considerably by what all the learned judges had to say about the moral rights of the company. I would say that no right hon. Gentleman sitting on the Government or the Opposition Front Benches need be under the slightest inhibition about voting against this Bill after what those judges have said, and whatever may have been the declared intention. So I would go back to this. It seems to me that the Government, if they are going to bludgeon the House of Commons and force this Bill through, should at least be prepared to consider the only other alternative open, that is to say that, recognising that there is an enormous moral case, believing, apparently with the previous Administration, that the law should be qualified—certainly for the future—and being prepared to follow what I think is a very unwise course and reverse the finding of the House of Lords, they are nevertheless prepared to go further on an ex gratin basis over and above the £4·7 million which has already been paid to the company in connection with the rehabilitation of Burma. The company has constantly made it clear that the £4·7 million was never intended as compensation in the legal meaning of the term.
  I find it extraordinary that the Bill should be described as a War Damage Bill in view of the definition of the words "war damage" in the War Damage Act, 1943. I see no relation whatever between action taken in denial of the enemy and what was included in the definition of war damage in Section 2 of the 1943 Act. Section 2(1) deals with
  "Damage occurring (whether accidentally or not) as the direct result of action taken by
  1192
  the enemy, or action taken in combating the enemy or in repelling an imagined attack by the enemy …"
  Nobody suggests that the destruction of the assets of the Burmah Oil Co. in Burma in anticipation of the Japanese advance was repelling an enemy.
  Mr. Robert Cooke Mr. Robert Cooke (Bristol, West) rose—
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: May I finish this part of my argument? Section 2(1,b) reads:
  "Damage occurring (whether accidentally or not) as the direct result of measures taken under proper authority to avoid the spreading of, or otherwise to mitigate, the consequences of such damage as aforesaid …"
  I do not see how denial of the enemy comes into that. Section 2(1, c) deals with accidental damage, and there are two further paragraphs with which I need not bother the House. I do not think that anybody would pretend that what the Burmah Oil Company did on the Government's instructions in this case was in any way accidental. It was deliberate. The Bill is therefore misnamed. It is not a War Damage Bill in the strict meaning of war damage as defined in the 1943 Act. Perhaps the Attorney-General will deal with this.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Would my hon. and gallant Friend care to suggest to the Government that they should give an undertaking to amend the title of the Bill? That procedure was followed on the Machinery of Government Bill, the title of which was amended in another place. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will invite the Government to give an undertaking, before the Bill is read a Second time, that an Amendment will be made. That is quite a normal think to ask.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: That is a legitimate point, and I ask the Government to give appropriate weight to it. I feel that the point which I have been making is less important than the two main issues concerned, and in conclusion I will come back to them. We must recognise that we are not dealing with just a board of directors. We are dealing with 135,000 shareholders, over 70 per cent. of whom hold less than £500 of stock. Therefore, we are dealing with a large number of people and their proper interests.
  Their board, on the Government's instructions, took certain action during the

  1193
  War. It seems to me that the order given to them was proper, sensible and understandable. Nevertheless, the Government today have introduced a Bill which was originally drafted by the previous Administration, presumably before they new what the House of Lords decision would be. I see that the Financial Secretary shakes his head. Do I understand that the Bill was drafted after the decision of the House of Lords? We are entitled to know.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Thomas): Ask right hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Front Bench. They know.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I have assumed that the Bill was being prepared when the letter was sent from the Treasury Solicitor. I regard that letter as very nearly blackmail—the most outrageous letter which has ever been written by a Treasury Solicitor and well in keeping with an observation which was once made to a very great friend of mine, who was formerly a Member of the House but has now passed on, by a very senior officer of the Inland Revenue, who openly boasted one evening that he could honestly claim that in every year during which he had held his office the Inland Revenue had got more from the taxpayers than it was entitled to by law had all taxpayers exercised their rights. This is the attitude of mind one gets from that Department. It is absolutely outrageous that that letter was sent. I deeply deplore the fact that my right hon. Friends were in office when it was sent.
  The letter having been sent, in the light of the House of Lords decision the Government have one of only two courses which they can honourably take. Either they leave out the retrospective part of the Bill, or they go to the company and make a reasonable offer for an additional ex gratia payment over the £4·7 million.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. Terence L. Higgins: I rise with some trepidation, as a new Member of the House, to speak in a debate which has been extremely technical and complicated. I should be failing in my duty if I did not stress the
  1194
  fundamental basic principle which lies at the root of our argument, because I believe that it is a principle which is of concern to everyone. It is not a narrow issue that we are debating. It is an extremely broad issue, which strikes at the very fundamentals of the rule of law.
  Earlier in the debate it was suggested that the question of compensation should in some way be considered on a relative basis between the various groups which were hurt during the last war. I am sure that the House is deeply conscious of the debt which we all owe to those who suffered in the war. We should be equally clear that those who fought that war fought very much for the principles which are being struck at in the Bill.
  I therefore suggest that we must consider carefully the whole point raised here of retrospective legislation. We should consider very carefully the precedent which will be created in this country by the thin end of the wedge put before us this evening. We should also consider its effect on other countries. As has been rightly stressed, this cannot be overlooked in the way the Treasury Bench overlooked it in opening the debate. We must remember that this Parliament is an example to the rest of the world.
  If we go about our affairs in the way suggested and overrule decisions of the highest court of appeal in the land, the effects on foreign investment from all over the world and for British investment elsewhere in the world will be serious. We should not take such action because of the narrow objective of the Bill as it stands at present.
  It is clear that what we are being asked to do is to say that the Executive can say in its letter, as it did, what it thinks the law is; then it can find out, by a decision of the House of Lords, that the law is not what it thought it was and can then introduce legislation to make it what it wants it to have been but never was. This is a principle which we cannot accept.
  There has been a good deal of discussion about the amount involved. This is not at issue at this point. It may be an issue at a later stage, when the question of damages is considered. We should

  1195
  make it abundantly clear that, whatever the damages may be, it would be a very high price if we were to abandon our principles because we think that the cost of meeting a particular claim or even potential claims would be too high. We must stick to our principles and not introduce retrospective legislation of the kind now put before us.
  The hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) was inclined to stress that this was a situation in which the opinion of the highest court in the land had been taken, but that the matter then suddenly became a political question. It is abundantly clear that if we allow legal decisions to be overruled, we are, in effect, setting up this House as a court above the highest court in this land. This, I would have thought, is something which we simply cannot allow.
  Therefore, I trust that hon. Members on both sides of the House—because I do not think this is a party political matter—will consider the reputation of the House, if, as a new Member, I may presume to say so, and will vote to throw out the Bill. I believe that it is completely wrong in seeking to overrule a principle which people in this country have defended throughout the centuries.
  9.11 p.m.
  Mr. William Yates: am sure that we have all heard with interest the speech of the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins).
  Surely tonight of all nights we are dealing with a matter of principle. One fundamental thing which Disraeli said was, "I am a man whose policies are laid down in principle and not in expediency." If ever there was an expedient Bill, this is it. What has happened? We all know. The Treasury could not get its way. At the end of the day the Treasury thought, "The only thing we can do is to go to Parliament and alter the law, because we have lost the day." The Government are asking us, of all people, to endorse that decision.
  What is this House doing? Surely, this is an occasion when every back bencher, on both sides of the House, must unite against the Executive. Our ancestors spent centuries here protecting the individual from the greed and avarice of the Crown. During the course of the years the Executive took over those pre-
  1196
  rogative rights, and one of them was to act in certain ways to protect the property of the individual. But in doing that there was the understanding that if the property should be acquired compensation must be paid.
  Are we solemnly, tonight, to allow a Bill of this nature to go through without the most violent protest? In a short time the people of this country will find out the facts. They will find out: all the words of the lawyers, all the nice speeches, the fact is that it was needed just for a political deal. As the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) said, this is a political deal. Is this a political deal? If so, is that the right way to tackle the matter, by means of a political deal? Are we to judge it on political expediency?
  It seems that one of the fundamental principles of liberty is to be decided as a matter of political expediency, to suit whom?—the Executive of the day who, to their utter shame, inherited something which the Conservative Party ought never to have produced. I have no doubt that the Administration at the time were under great pressure from the Treasury to bring in this Bill, but Ministers of the Crown, when they they see principles being defied, must stand up and take on the Treasury, and we shall help them to do it.
  This is a serious occasion for the House. I congratulate the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) on moving the Amendment. Surely, this matter should be dropped for one reason alone. Do we know how much the claim is to be? Have the damages been assessed? Of course they have not. Then by what right are figures bandied about—£10 million, £12 million, £14 million, £15 million, and even £100 million? Does it matter in a case of principle whether the amount involved is only 6d?
  We have heard about the people who lost their relatives in the war. Certainly, that is a serious matter. But whether it be a large sum or a small sum of money, what does that matter from the point of view of the principle? It is the principle that counts. I beg the House to stand up for the principle that retrospective legislation is wrong and should not be allowed to be passed by this House. I am sorry to have dealt with the Opposition Front Bench—the Government Front Bench—so firmly in this matter.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: My hon. Friend did, after all, refer to the Opposition Front Bench and suggested that it was my party who had produced the Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was."] It is also true to say that it did not introduce the Bill. There are a great many unsatisfactory Bills floating about in Government Departments. Will my hon. Friend make clear to the House that many of these poisonous Measures floating about in Government Departments never gee the light of day because of the wise action of the Government of the day, and that if the present Government tad been wise this Bill would not have reached the House.
  Mr. Yates: I will not split hairs with my hon. Friend. When the Bill was prepared, who by, and who knew about it, has been carefully cloaked. I am certain that very few hon. Members on the back benches knew that the Government were considering or preparing a Bill of this sort. I cannot see, therefore, why we should be blamed for it. But if the Conservative Party was instrumental in producing a Bill of this nature I am sorry, but I bow to the understanding of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke), who knows more about it and who says that it was not.
  Here we are to have to take a decision to throw the Bill out, because I cannot see any other way in which we can deal with it. Some people would like to consider an ex gratia payment and whether the Burmah Oil Company could trot down to the Treasury and fix up a little deal, but that is not the way to deal with the matter. If a person has a right, then he has a right, and we should uphold the right which has been won in the court. We do not know yet what the value of it will be, but until we see the full process of the law take place in this claim we should not seek to use the power we possess to overrule a decision which should be taken in the courts.
  It will be a bad day for Parliament, and certainly for the Government, if the Government are to be able to hammer the Bill through the House. If we are incapable of standing up to it both here and in Committee I hope that in another place they will murder it.
  Mr. Thorpe: The hon. Member has dealt very effectively with the Treasury
  1198
  Bench opposite and I agree with every word he has said. Unfortunately, at least one right hon. Gentleman from his own Front Bench has indicated that he will abstain. Will the hon. Member deal with that?
  Mr. Herbert Butler: On a point of order. The hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) has had his share. Is it in order for him to make a second speech in the form of an interjection addressed to the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. William Yates), who actually had just sat down?
  Mr. Speaker: There is yet no abuse in the interjection. It depended on the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. William Yates) being willing to accept it.
  Mr. Yates: I am not here as the keeper of other Members' consciences on a matter of such a serious nature as this. Why does not the hon. Member for Devon, North consult other hon. Members in the Lobby about it?
  9.19 p.m.
  Commander Sir Peter Agnew: This has been a very valuable debate, and valuable only because whatever happens to the Bill tonight—and I hope that it will not receive a Second Reading—the manner of its presentation by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury showed the Bill at the outset of the debate in colours totally different from those in which it has been subsequently revealed and exposed. It masquerades under the title of a War Damage Bill when it is nothing less than a Bill of confiscation. No words spoken from the Government Front Bench are persuasive when they describe it as a Bill of indemnity.
  Most people think, when there is a question of indemnity, that some person, some citizen, is to be indemnified against penalties which he would otherwise suffer as a result of his actions, actions of such a deserving character as to merit treatment of that kind by the House. There are many examples of indemnity. One with which we are familiar came at the beginning of the last Parliament. We indemnified by Act of Parliament several hon. Members who had taken their seats, having won their elections,

  1199
  not knowing that they would be liable in the circumstances to a fine of £500, or whatever it is, per day for doing so until the House took legislative action accordingly.
  As for retrospection, I must be sincere and say that I am not able to condemn out of hand all retrospective legislation. I cannot, because, if I were to do so, I should find myself unable to accept the increases in salary which the House has recently awarded to its Members and which certainly have retrospective effect. But when retrospective legislation or other action of the State penalises the citizen or confiscates his property or rights, then nearly all private Members of whatever party will be united in condemning it. I am well aware that on the Government benches the party Whips will be faithful in doing their duty as instructed, but on our side of the House there is to be a free vote on this matter.
  I wish to say something now in reply to the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). I have no doubt—this is how his speech impressed me—that the hon. Gentleman was entirely sincere in his approach, although, in my view, quite mistaken. He sought to compare the desires and aspirations of what he described as this rich international company in hoping to be able to keep for itself the good fortune which it had obtained as a result of the recent case in the House of Lords with the plight of the widow of the soldier who gave his life for his country. It is now quite a long time, more than 100 days, since the election, and if the war widow's pension is inadequate there has been plenty of time for Her Majesty's Government to put the matter right.
  Mr. MacDermot: Is the hon. Gentleman forgetting that the House has already passed a Bill which does precisely that?
  Sir P. Agnew: If that is so, it did not stop the hon. Member for Oldham, West saying that the widow's plight was still a very sorry one. I believe that the House considers that, on the whole, so far as the financial aspect of it goes, it is adequate, although everyone will always sympathise with a woman who loses her husband on active service for his country. There is no doubt about that.
  1200
  What is the real character of the company which desires not special treatment but to be allowed to reap what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster) said was the proper fruit of the hazards of going to law? According to the information which I have, as much as 70 per cent.—[An HON. MEMBER: "It is all in the letter."] Yes, it is, and it ought to be put on record. As much as 70 per cent. of the holdings in this company are held by people with shares amounting to not more than £500. The principal shareholders are not immense corporations or the Co-operative Wholesale Society or great banks or even great trade unions. For these reasons, I appeal that no case has been made out that the course of the law should be interfered with and its rule upset in the way that this Bill proposes.
  What of the future? Supposing this Bill reaches the Statute Book. We shall be faced with a situation where entirely negative action will have been taken by Parliament. The rights of common law which are believed to exist—believed even by the Government to exist because the Preamble of the Bill says that its purpose is to destroy them—will have been taken away and nothing put in their place. I am sure that the ordinary citizens believe that, if the public interest demands that the property of an individual person or company should be taken away or destroyed, the whole community should bear the cost of restoring the value to that individual. This legislation, if the House is so ill-advised as to pass it, will destroy that concept. For these reasons, I shall be glad to join those of my hon. Friends who, I believe, will do so in considerable numbers, in voting against the Bill.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Elwyn Jones): The House has had a most interesting debate in which important and difficult issues of law and public policy have been voiced. The welkin has been made to ring by several hon. Members opposite. I permit myself to wonder whether their opposition would have been as vehement had this Bill been introduced by the previous Conservative Government, who were committed to introducing it and would, I believe, in honour have introduced it in the circumstances

  1201
  in which this Administration now find themselves.
  I do not want to pass the burden of this on to the previous Administration. The Bill is introduced by the present Government and we accept responsibility for it. But I want to make one thing perfectly clear at the outset, in view of certain observations about attitudes towards justice and law which have fallen from the lips of hon. Members.
  I make it perfectly clear that the Labour Government are as dedicated to the rule of law as were any previous Administrations, including Liberal Administrations. The Labour Governments since the war have manifested their faith and have worked for the rule of law not merely by words, but by introducing historic legislation. There were the Crown Proceedings Act, 1947, and the Legal Aid and Advice Act, 1949, which gave a reality to the rule of law for people whose circumstances would otherwise have deprived them of access to the courts. We do not render lip-service to the rule of law, but do something about it. Next week, we shall introduce a Bill to create a statutory law commission for the reform and modernisation of the law. We do not need lectures from either the Liberal Party or the Conservative Party on respect for the maintenance of the rule of law.
  I come immediately, as the House would expect me to do, to the main matter which has caused anxiety, namely, the fact that the Bill is to have retrospective effect. As a lawyer and most particularly as one of the Law Officers of the Crown, I have a special reluctance to lend support to retrospective legislation, but I am bound to say that I certainly do not go as far as several hon. Members who have spoken to the effect that all retrospective legislation is of itself objectionable whatever its circumstances or con tent.
  I note that the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir P. Agnew) agrees with that point of view.
  Mr. Robert Cooke Mr. Robert Cooke rose—
  The Attorney-General: There are many who have been in the House throughout the whole of the debate and when the moment comes, if the train of what I
  1202
  am pleased to call my thought is not excessively interrupted, I shall be glad to give way, but the hon. Gentleman does not come into that category.
  I was about to say that there are clearly circumstances—happily the occasions are exceptional and rare—when retrospective legislation is not only justifiable, but necessary in the public interest and not contrary to the rule of law. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Come (Mr. Sydney Silverman) pointed out in his helpful contribution to the debate, the necessity for the Acts of Indemnity after the Great War, like the Act of Indemnity, 1920, are a classic example of justifiable retrospective legislation, and I accept his view that in principle this Bill is similar in character to that legislation.
  I venture to give from the experience of the previous Administration two illustrations of the need for and the introduction of retrospective legislation. There were two such Acts with retrospective effect in 1954, and on those occasions the Government warned that any proceedings brought after the date of their announcement of legislation would be set aside by legislation. When it was introduced, the legislation contained the provisions for the setting aside of judgments which had already been given and for the abatement of proceedings which were pending.
  One of those Acts was the Charitable Trusts (Validation) Act, 1954. I cannot refrain from noting with interest that the Second Reading of that Act was moved by the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald), whose name appears among the list of supporters to the Amendment,
  "That this House declines to give a second reading to a Bill which involves retrospective legislation reversing a decision of the highest Court of Appeal",
  which is precisely what the Measure which the right hon. and learned Gentleman introduced did. That Act was purely retrospective and was intended to validate certain trust instruments and was intended to prevent residual legatees or next-of-kin from taking action. We see in Section 4 of the Act the kind of provisions which it contains:
  "Subject to the next following subsection, effect shall be given to the provisions of this Act in legal proceedings begun before its commencement, as well as in those begun afterwards.

  1203
  (2) This Act shall not affect any order or judgment made or given before its commencement in legal proceedings begun before"—
  Hon. Members: This is it.
  The Attorney-General: Just a moment. Do not get too hopeful about that—
  "begun before the sixteenth day of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-two"—
  this is a 1954 Act—
  "or any appeal or other proceedings, consequent on any such order or judgment.
  (3) Where in legal proceedings begun on or after the said sixteenth day of December, any order or judgment has been made or given before the commencement of this Act which would not have been made or given after that commencement, the court by which the order or judgment was made or given shall, on the application of any person aggrieved thereby, set it aside in whole or in part and make such further order as the court thinks equitable with a view to placing those concerned as nearly as may be in the position they ought to be in having regard to this Act".
  That was a classic piece of retrospective legislation, but it is quite true that in respect of those affected by it a warning was given. Whatever else has emerged from this debate, it is clear that the Burmah Oil Company was warned consistently over the years that if it brought litigation the Crown would act to prevent the company from enjoying the fruits of any successful litigation in respect of the denial action.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke Sir H. Legge-Bourke rose—
  The Attorney-General: This is a very convenient moment for me to give way.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I wonder whether the Attorney-General would agree that there is a very clear distinction between the Act which he has just mentioned and what we are discussing? In this case, the Burmah Oil Company carried out the instructions of the Crown. There is no question of anybody being denied rights as a result of that under the other piece of legislation.
  The Attorney-General: I think that it is time that there was a sense of reality about what was going on in Burma. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am asked to deal with the point. I do not know that it is particularly germane to the broad issue of principle to which I was trying to address myself. The demolition of the oil installations in Burma was carried out in the face of the advancing
  1204
  enemy. The Japanese occupied the site of the important installation the very next day after the explosion had occurred. I cannot conceive that there was a solemn meeting of the board of the Burmah Oil Company at which it was said, "If we do this, will we get any compensation?"
  Of course there was not. This was a critical stage of the Burma war. This was a vital act of war to deny oil and petroleum and essential facilities to the Japanese. To say that this does not contemplate any element of war damage is the biggest nonsense I have heard since have been in the House of Commons
  Sir Frederic Bennett rose—
  The Attorney-General: I have just given way. I must be permitted to continue with what I was saying, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  Sir F. Bennett: The Attorney-General has just described as complete nonsense a verdict reached by the majority of the members of the highest court in the land.
  The Attorney-General: The majority of the House of Lords said that it was not battle damage. It never said that it was not war damage. That was not the relevant issue that arose. It was denial to the enemy by the destruction of installations which would have been invaluable. Clearly, it was war damage by any schoolboy's understanding of the meaning of words.
  Coming back to the rather more relevant problem—if the House will return to the serious consideration of the matters under discussion which has marked the day's proceedings—in addition to the Charitable Trusts Validation Act, 1954, there was another piece of retrospective legislation introduced by the previous Administration. That was Section 39 of the Finance Act, 1960, which again involved retrospective legislation
  "reversing a decision"—
  to use the language of the Opposition Amendment—
  "of the highest Court of Appeal."
  I see no distinction in principle in reversing the decision of the highest court of appeal as distinct from the lowest court of appeal, or of a court of first instance. However, that is intended, no doubt,

  1205
  merely to be colourable language to add quality to an otherwise unimpressive Amendment.
  There was that other piece of retrospective legislation, and I observe that Section 39 of that Act was passed without a Division. I think I am right in saying that 38 of the hon. Members whose names appear on the Amendment condemning
  "retrospective legislation reversing a decision of the highest Court of Appeal"
  were then Members of the House of Commons and gave that piece of retrospective legislation their support.
  Of course, the matter goes further back than that. In 1920 there was passed the Indemnity Act, which extinguished all rights of action against servants of the Crown for acts done in good faith in the execution of their duties during the war and it gave those affected a statutory right to compensation. It was a piece of retrospective legislation.
  Two years after the introduction of that Act there followed the case of the Attorney-General v. Wilts. United Dairies in 1922. The House may be interested to see what view was taken by this House in regard to the difficulties that arose in connection with that case. It arose because the dairy company refused to pay to the food controller 2d. on each gallon of milk that it purchased in pursuance of licences that were granted to the food controller on condition that the company paid 2d. for every gallon of milk that it bought. The company claimed, however, that those charges were ultra vires, and the House of Lords so held. What followed was that the validity of all those charges, which had produced fees totalling no less than £18 million, was retrospectively validated by the War Charges (Validity) Act, 1925.
  Sir Douglas Glover: Fees amounting to £18 million?
  The Attorney-General: Yes. The 2d. per gallon amounted in all to £18 million. People drank a lot of milk in those days.
  The retrospective War Charges (Validity) Act applied to all proceedings then pending in the same way as today's Bill applies to the proceedings of the Burmah Oil Company which are now pending. I doubt whether there were
  1206
  great cries then that this was a grave challenge to the independence of the judiciary and a grave piece of unconstitutionality. In my submission, that is an illustration, as is today's Bill, of the necessity, however unattractive the legislation might be, for the Government of the day in the public interest from time to time, in exceptional circumstances, to introduce retrospective legislation.
  There has been wild talk in this debate of confiscatory legislation. There is nothing of the kind. The position is this. There has been no final judgment in favour of the Burmah Oil Company. All it has got is a declaration that a right to denial damages exists, if the facts alleged in the pleadings are proved. That is the position in the case, and it is quite wrong to speak of confiscation. No such situation has arisen, and, indeed, it might never arise were this litigation to continue to its full course.
  Mr. Gardner: I just wanted to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman this, because it is a matter of serious moment for the House, I am sure. Can he explain the distinction in reality between the decision now, and that of the Socialist Government in 1949 to pay compensation to the tune of something like—I think it was—50 million dollars to oil companies in Sarawak, North Borneo and Brunei, which had, at the order of Her Majesty's Government, in the same way as the present company had at the order of Her Majesty's Government destroyed their oil installations in order to deny them to the enemy? What is the distinction between that claim, which was paid, and the present claim, which the Government are trying to evade?
  The Attorney-General: I was coming, but now I shall come immediately, to the circumstances. The Burmah Oil Company received a payment of £4 million from the United Kingdom Government in 1948. That £4¾ million was part of a payment of about £11 million in all, including the £1 million which was paid in respect of the destruction of the Irawaddy fleet. That £11 million was an out and out payment to the British persons and companies who had claimed it. It was an out and out payment to them to be dealt with as they wished, although naturally it was hoped and expected that it would be used for the reconstruction

  1207
  of the installations of the companies in Burma. An hon. Gentleman says, it was not compensation. Of course it was compensation in the sense that it paid them for some of the damage that they had, but only on the basis of a contribution towards rehabilitation. I entirely agree it was not compensation in the sense of damages for wrongful acts or alternatively compensation at common law.
  The real crux of the matter which the House is debating tonight is this. If the Burmah Oil Company succeeds, and is assisted in succeeding by hon. Members opposite, in establishing its claim for compensation at common law, the company, of all the millions of people who suffered damage during the last war, will be placed in a preferential position; because everyone else who was a victim of war damage could only have hoped for compensation—in many cases wholly inadequate—on the basis of what the special schemes of the War Damage Acts provided, which certainly bore no relation to the scale of damages based on full compensation. It simply means that this oil company would do better than any other citizen of this country, and the House has got to face that as the practical issue in this debate. This is one of the matters which the Government have to consider out of equity to the rest of those who suffered from the damage of the war.
  As I have said, the Burmah Oil Company itself could never have been in any doubt about its position with regard to a claim against the United Kingdom Government. It was told by Sir Stafford Cripps, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1948, that the settlement with it was final. The hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) asked me whether, during those negotiations, the possibility was left open that in the event of the Burmah Oil Company failing in its proceedings against the Burma Government it could come back to the United Kingdom Government, and, like Oliver, ask for more.
  The position is that no such possibility was held out. Indeed, when that suggestion was made to him, Sir Stafford Cripps used the graphic and characteristic words, "No. You will have to whistle for any more". That position was made clear in 1948.
  1208
  Later, successive Governments were equally clear with regard to further approaches by the company. In 1952, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the company that the settlement was final, and in 1956 the Chancellor of the Exchequer again said that the settlement was final. Let it be remembered that it was nearly 20 years—I think that 19 years and 8 months was the precise time—after the damage was caused that the action was brought in the courts of Scotland, and the company was clearly warned by the preceding Administration that legislation would be introduced to indemnify the Crown if the proceedings were continued.
  It is right, in fairness to the previous Administration—tenderness towards which is not my outstanding characteristic—that I should say that that warning was given by the Government to the company before the case ever came on for hearing. Therefore, in my submission, we are in the presence of very special circumstances; circumstances which make it just and fair, and in the public interest, to introduce this retrospective legislation now.
  This is the first opportunity which the present Administration has had to deal with the situation. It may be that the previous Administration could have brought the litigation to an end by legislation at an earlier stage, and it may well be that it would have been more opportune and better if that had been done, but, for reasons best known to them, they did not choose to do so, and it is now our task to grasp this nettle, which we propose to do.
  Some hon. Gentlemen have suggested that there should now be a renegotiation of this matter. Indeed, one hon. Gentleman opposite suggested that the Government should send an emissary to the Burham Oil Company to see whether some new basis of negotiation could be found. The negotiation took pace in 1948. It was a negotiation between the British Government and the Burmah Oil Company. They accepted the amount paid by the British Government at that time—£4¾ million. While I do not complain about the skill and ingenuity which they have applied to their litigations, or the moderate way in which they have conducted their lobby in the House of Commons—
  Mr. Stanley Orme: Vested interest.
  The Attorney-General: —nevertheless, that negotiation was completed then and I regret to say—from the point of view of those who think that more should be paid from the taxpayers' purse for this claim—that the decision has been made, and the decision—
  Mr. Thorpe: On a point of order. I very much regret interrupting the Attorney-General, but the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) has sought to suggest that there is a vested interest on the part of those who have raised this issue. That implies that those who ought to have declared an interest have not done so. In my respectful submission, that is a very damaging allegation. May I respectfully ask you, Mr. Speaker, to ask the hon. Member to withdraw the allegation?
  Mr. Speaker: I can deal with an attack upon an individual, and an allegation against an individual of unavowed motives might require my intervention, bit I cannot deal with a multiple target.
  The Attorney-General: In the circumstances which I have endeavoured to explain to the House, therefore, I must say that the decision of the Government, subject to the House approving the Bill and its becoming law, is that the negotiation that took place in 1948 is the end of the story as far as payment from the British taxpayer in this matter is concerned.
  As to the substantive law contained in Clause 1, there seems to be fairly general support for the proposal to remedy the position which has resulted from the decision of the House of Lords which, in view of the Government, produces a state of law which is uncertain, difficult to apply in practice and liable to produce anomalies of the kind which have been described on several occasions during the debate.
  This matter of law relating to war damage, and what are the best arrangements for the community in regard to it, was dealt with in a remarkably effective passage at the close of the speech of Lord Radcliffe. He expressed the view which appeals to the Government, that the balance of public advantage and constitutional propriety argues against the courts dealing with claims in respect of damage by lawful prerogative action. The Government take that view and I therefore invite the House to support the Second Reading of the Bill as a necessary and just Measure in the public interest.
  Colonel Sir Harwood Harrison rose—
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Short)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Short) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question put, That the Question be now put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 221, Noes 126.

  Division No. 53.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  English, Michael

  Alldritt, W.H.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Ennals, David

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Chapman, Donald

  Ensor, David

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Conlan, Bernard

  Evans, Ioan (Birmingham, Yardley)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Fernyhough, E.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Barnett, Joel

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Beaney, Alan

  Dalyell, Tam

  Floud, Bernard

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. P. J.

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Foley, Maurice

  Bence, Cyril

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Ford, Ben

  Blackburn, F.

  de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

  Garrett, W. E.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Delargy, Hugh

  Garrow, A.

  Boston, T. G.

  Dell Edmund

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  Bowden, Rt. H. H. W. (Leics S. W.)

  Dodds, Norman

  Gourlay, Harry

  Boyden, James

  Doig, Peter

  Gregory, Arnold

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Driberg, Tom

  Gourlay Harry

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Griffiths David (Rother Valley)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Griffiths Rt. Hn. James (Lianelly)

  Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)

  Dunn, James A.

  Griffiths Will (M'chester Exchange)

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & Fbury)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hale, Leslie

  Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Buchanan, Richard

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Hannan, William

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Harper, Joseph

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Hattersley, Roy

  Manuel, Archie

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mapp, Charles

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Hazell, Bert

  Marsh, Richard

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mason, Roy

  Small, William

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Maxwell, Robert

  Snow, Julian

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

  Millan, Bruce

  Solomons, Henry

  Holman, Percy

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Soskice, Rt. Hn. Sir Frank

  Horner, John

  Monslow, Walter

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Steele, Thomas

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (SheffieldPk)

  Stones, William

  Howarth, Robert L. (Bolton, E.)

  Murray, Albert

  Summerskill, Dr. Shirley

  Howie, W.

  Neal, Harold

  Swain, Thomas

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Newens, Stan

  Symonds, J. B.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Taverne, Dick

  Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline)

  Norwood, Christopher

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Hunter, A. E. (Feltham)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Ogden, Eric

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Oram, Albert E. (E. Ham, S.)

  Thornton, Ernest

  Jackson, Colin

  Orme, Stanley

  Tinn, James

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Oswald, Thomas

  Tomney, Frank

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Owen, Will

  Tuck, Raphael

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Page, Derek (King's, Lynn)

  Urwin T. W.

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Pargiter G. A.

  Varley, Eric G.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Pentland, Norman

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Kelley, Richard

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Wallace, George

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Watkins, Tudor

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Lawson George

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Probert, Arthur

  Whitlock, William

  Lever L. M. (Ardwick)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Redhead, Edward

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Rees, Merlyn

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  McBride, Neil

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  McCann, J.

  Richard, Ivor

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  MacColl, James

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  McGuire, Michael

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. K. (St. Pancras, N.)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  McInnes, James

  Rose, Paul B.

  Woof, Robert

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Sheldon, Robert

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  MacMillan, Malcolm

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Short, Rt.Hn.E.(N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.)

  Mr. Rogers and Mrs. Slater.

  NOES

  Agnew, Commander Sir Peter

  Cooper, A. E.

  Gurden, Harold

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Costain, A. P.

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Hawkins, Paul

  Astor, John

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Crowder, F. P.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Awdry, Daniel

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Howe, Geoffrey (Bebington)

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Curran, Charles

  Hunt, John (Bromley)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Bell, Ronald

  Dean, Paul

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Doughty, Charles

  Jopling, Michael

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Eden, Sir Jonn

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Bessell, Peter

  Elliot Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Biffen, John

  Emery, Peter

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Kitson, Timothy

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen)

  Lambton, Viscount

  Blaker, Peter

  Foster, Sir John

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Braine, Bernard

  Gardner, Edward

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col.Sir Walter

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  MacIean, Sir Fitzroy

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Buck, Antony

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mitchell, David

  Buxton, R. C.

  Gower, Raymond

  Monro, Hector

  Carlisle, Mark

  Grant, Anthony

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Gresham-Cooke, R.

  Murton, Oscar

  Cooke, Robert

  Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  1212

  1213

  Onslow, Cranley

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Walder, David (High Peak)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Wall, Patrick

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Page, R. Graham (Crosby)

  Stodart, J. A.

  Webster, David

  Percival, Ian

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Pickthorn, Rt. Hn. Sir Kenneth

  Talbot, John E.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Younger, Hn. George

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Teeling, Sir William

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Mr. Lubbock and Mr. Thorpe.

  Royle, Anthony

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Question put accordingly, That "now" stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 129.

  Division No. 54.]

  AYES

  [10.10 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Ford, Ben

  Mapp, Charles

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Marsh, Richard

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Garrow, A.

  Mason, Roy

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  Maxwell, Robert

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Gourlay, Harry

  Millan, Bruce

  Atkinson, Norman

  Gregory, Arnold

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Monslow, Walter

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Barnett, Joel

  Griffiths, Will (M'chester Exchange)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (SheffieldPk)

  Beaney, Alan

  Hale, Leslie

  Murray, Albert

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Neal, Harold

  Bence, Cyril

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Newens, Stan

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Hannan, William

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Harper Joseph

  Norwood, Christopher

  Blackburn, F.

  Hattersley, Roy

  Oakes, Gordon

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Hayman, F. H.

  Ogden, Eric

  Boston, T. G.

  Hazell, Bert

  O'Malley, Brian

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics S. W.)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Oram, Albert E. (E. Ham S.)

  Boyden, James

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Orme, Stanley

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Holman, Percy

  Owen, Will

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Horner, John

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)

  Houghton, Rt. Non. Douglas

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & Fbury)

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.)

  Howarth, Robert L. (Bolton, E.)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Buchanan, Richard

  Howie, W.

  Pentland, Norman

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Callaghan, Rt. Hon. James

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Hunter, A. E. (Feltham)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Chapman, Donald

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Probert, Arthur

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Randall, Harry

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Jackson, Colin

  Redhead, Edward

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Rees, Merlyn

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Reynolds, C. W.

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Richard, Ivor

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. K. (St. Pancras, N.)

  de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Delargy, Hugh

  Kelley, Richard

  Sheldon, Robert

  Dell, Edmund

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  Dodds, Norman

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Doig, Peter

  Lawson, George

  Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.)

  Driberg, Tom

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Dunn, James A.

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lipton, Marcus

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Small, William

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McBride, Neil

  Snow, Julian

  English, Michael

  McCann, J.

  Solomons, Henry

  Ennals, David

  MacColl, James

  Soskice, Rt. Hn. Sir Frank

  Ensor, David

  MacDermot, Niall

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Evans, Ioan (Birmingham, Yardley)

  McGuire, Michael

  Steele, Thomas

  Fernyhough, E.

  McInnes, James

  Stones, William

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Summerskill, Dr. Shirley

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  MacKenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Swain, Thomas

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  MacMillan, Malcolm

  Symonds, J. B.

  Floud, Bernard

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Taverne, Dick

  Foley, Maurice

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Manuel, Archie

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Wallace, George

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Thornton, Ernest

  Watkins, Tudor

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Tinn, James

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Tomney, Frank

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Tuck, Raphael

  Whitlock, William

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Urwin, T. W.

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Woof, Robert

  Varley, Eric G.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Williams, Allan (Swansea, W.)

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Mr. Rogers and Mrs. Slater.

  NOES

  Agnew, Commander Sir Peter

  Eden, Sir John

  Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land)

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  MacIean, Sir Fitzroy

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Emery, Peter

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Astor, John

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen)

  Mitchell, David

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Foster, Sir John

  Monro, Hector

  Awdry, Daniel

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Gardner, Edward

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Barlow, Sir John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Murton, Oscar

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Bell, Ronald

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Onslow, Granley

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Bessell, Peter

  Goodhew, Victor

  Page, R. Graham (Crosby)

  Biffen, John

  Gower, Raymond

  Percival, Ian

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Grant, Anthony

  Pickthorn, Rt. Hn. Sir Kenneth

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Gresham-Cooke, R.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Box, Donald

  Grimond Rt. Hn. J.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Braine, Bernard

  Gurden, Harold

  Royle, Anthony

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Hawkins, Paul

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Stodart, J. A.

  Buck, Antony

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Howe, Geoffrey (Bebington)

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Buxton, R. C.

  Hunt, John (Bromley)

  Talbot, John E.

  Carlisle, Mark

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Teeling, Sir William

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Cooke, Robert

  Jopling, Michael

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Kimball, Marcus

  Walder, David (High Peak)

  Costain, A. P.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Lambton, Viscount

  Webster, David

  Crowder, F. P.

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Curran, Charles

  Longden Gilbert

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Younger, Hn. George

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Dean, Paul

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Doughty, Charles

  Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

  Mr. Lubbock and Mr. Thorpe.

  Bill read a Second time.
  Sir K. Pickthorn: I beg to move, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 140, Noes 222.

  Division No. 55.]

  AYES

  [10.19 p.m.

  Agnew, Commander Sir Peter

  Biffen, John

  Chataway, Christopher

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Box, Donald

  Cooke, Robert

  Astor, John

  Braine, Bernard

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col.Sir Walter

  Costain, A. P.

  Awdry, Daniel

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Barlow, Sir John

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Crowder, F. P.

  Batsford, Brian

  Buck, Antony

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Curran, Charles

  Bell, Ronald

  Buxton, R. C.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Dean, Paul

  Bessell, Peter

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Doughty, Charles

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Eden, Sir John

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Pym, Francis

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Emery, Peter

  Jopling, Michael

  Ritsdale, Julian

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Kimball, Marcus

  Royle, Anthony

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen)

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, 8.)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Foster, Sir John

  Kitson, Timothy

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Gardner, Edward

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Stodart, J. A.

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Talbot, John E.

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)

  Teeling, Sir William

  Gower, Raymond

  Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land)

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Grant, Anthony

  McLaren, Martin

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  MacIean, Sir Fitzroy

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Gresham-Cooke, R.

  Maude, Angus

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr.S. L. C.

  Walder, David (High Peak)

  Gurden, Harold

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Wall, Patrick

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

  Mitchell, David

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Monro, Hector

  Webster, David

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Hawkins, Paul

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Whitelaw, William

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Murton, Oscar

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Younger, Hn. George

  Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Howe, Geoffrey (Bebington)

  Page, R. Graham (Crosby)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hunt, John (Bromley)

  Percival, Ian

  Mr. Lubbock and Mr. Thorpe.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Pickthorn, Rt. Hn. Sir Kenneth

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Dunn, James A.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Edelman, Maurice

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Jackson, Colin

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Atkinson, Norman

  English, Michael

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Ennals, David

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Ensor, David

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Evans, Ioan (Birmingham, Yardley)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Beaney, Alan

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Bence, Cyril

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Kelley, Richard

  Bishop, E. S.

  Floud, Bernard

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Blackburn, F.

  Foley, Maurice

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Lawson, George

  Boston, T. G.

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics S. W.)

  Ford, Ben

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Boyden, James

  Garrett, W. E.

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Garrow, A.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  Lipton, Marcus

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)

  Gregory, Arnold

  McBride, Neil

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & Fbury)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  McCann, J.

  Buchan, Norman Renfrewshire, W.)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

  MacColl, James

  Buchanan, Richard

  Griffiths, Will (M'chcster Exchange)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Hale, Leslie

  McGuire, Michael

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McInnes, James

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Hannan, William

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Chapman, Donald

  Harper, Joseph

  MacMillan, Malcolm

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hattersley, Roy

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, 8.)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hazel, Bert

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Manuel, Archie

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Mapp, Charles

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

  Marsh, Richard

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Holman, Percy

  Mason, Roy

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Horner, John

  Maxwell, Robert

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Millan, Bruce

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

  Howarth, Robert L. (Bolton, E.)

  Monslow, Walter

  Delargy, Hugh

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Dell, Edmund

  Howie, W.

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk)

  Dodds, Norman

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Murray, Albert

  Doig, Peter

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Neal, Harold

  Driberg, Tom

  Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline)

  Newens, Stan

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hunter, A. E. (Feltham)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  1218

  1219

  Norwood, Christopher

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. K. (St. Pancras, N.)

  Tomney, Frank

  Oakes, Gordon

  Rose, Paul B.

  Tuck, Raphael

  Ogden, Eric

  Sheldon, Robert

  Urwin, T. W.

  O'Malley, Brian

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Oram, Albert E. (E. Ham, S.)

  Short, Rt. Hn. E.(N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Orme, Stanley

  Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton, N. E.)

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Owen, Will

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Wallace, George

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Watkins, Tudor

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Small, William

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Snow, Julian

  Whitlock, William

  Pentland, Norman

  Solomons, Henry

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Soskice, Rt. Hn. Sir Frank

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Steele, Thomas

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Price, J. T.(Westhoughton)

  Stones, William

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Probert, Arthur

  Summerskill, Dr. Shirley

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Swain, Thomas

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Randall, Harry

  Symonds, J. B.

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Redhead, Edward

  Taverne, Dick

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Rees, Merlyn

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Woof, Robert

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Yates, Victor (Ladywell)

  Richard, Ivor

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Thornton, Ernest

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Tinn, James

  Mr. Rogers and Mrs. Slater.

  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That the Proceedings on the Superannuation (Amendment) Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Short.]

  SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) BILL
  (Changed from Superannuation Bill)
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

  SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) BILL

    New Clause.—(CONSOLIDATION OF SUPERANNUATION ORDERS.)
    (1) Without prejudice to any other power to revoke instruments (meaning in this section orders, rules, regulations or statutory instruments) under the Superannuation Acts, the power to make instruments under the said Acts shall include and be deemed always to have included power to revoke instruments previously made under the said Acts; but instruments under the said Acts which revoke instruments previously made under the said Acts, either wholly or as respects cases or matters of any description, shall contain provisions having the same effect as the provisions which they revoke, except for any change (whether by way of alteration or omission) made in accordance with the said Acts.
    (2) Where any persons are receiving, or subject to any necessary claim being made and allowed are entitled to receive, benefits conferred by any instrument under the Acts, then any such instrument which revokes or otherwise changes the previous instrument so as to affect these benefits shall apply provisions to these persons, either with or without modification, so as to secure to them benefits not less advantageous than the benefits aforesaid.— [Mr. Graham Page.]
    Brought up, and read the First Time.
    10.30 p.m.
    Mr. Graham Page: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
    The purpose of the Clause is to enable the Government, should they see fit, to consolidate the mass of orders which have accumulated in this branch of the law. The Superannuation Acts necessarily leave much to delegated legislation, and it is highly inconvenient for those who have to refer to this branch of the law if they have to refer to innumerable Statutory Instruments. It is not only inconvenient but it is dangerous at times, because of the risk of missing some cross-reference and, perhaps, misinterpreting the law. Certainly the ease of reference is ensured by gathering these several Statutory Instruments together from time to time and putting them in one Instrument by way of consolidation.
    1222
    The House may be surprised to learn that consolidation requires specific statutory authority. One might think that, logically, if a Minister is given power by Statute to make Statutory Instruments, this would automatically give him power to combine them into one consolidating Instrument. But, in pension and superannuation matters, the House has hesitated to give power to the Minister to revoke Statutory Instruments which have been made, and, of course, revocation is necessary before one can consolidate.
    Revocation of a Statutory Instrument dealing with superannuation or pensions may prejudice the rights of superannuation or pensioners and prejudice the benefits which they receive under the existing law. Therefore, when Parliament has given the right to revoke this type of Statutory Instrument for the purpose of consolidation, it has taken care to say that the revocation shall be conditional upon similar provisions or provisions as beneficial being put into the consolidating Instrument. This I have repeated in the Clause.
    An example of the difficulty which arises without a Clause of this sort was shown by what happened under the Police Pensions Act, 1948. That Act gave power to the Home Secretary to make police pensions regulations, and, by 1961, 34 Statutory Instruments had accumulated setting out the various police pensions regulations. The Home Secretary at the time was urged to consolidate these 34 Instruments, and he wished to do so but was advised that he had no power. Very wisely, he initiated legislation, which resulted in the Police Pensions Act of 1961, and thereafter the 34 Statutory Instruments were consolidated into one Measure, the Police Pensions Regulations Act, 1962, The Clause uses the Police Pensions Act, 1962, as a precedent. I trust that I have met any question from the draftsmen by using a provision which has already appeared in previous Acts.
    The present need for the new Clause in relation to superannuation arises in the following way. Recently, the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments noticed that Orders regarding superannuation were becoming prolific, unwieldy and inconvenient, so many of them having accumulated, and the Committee urged the Treasury to consolidate them.

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    The reply from the Treasury was that there was no power to consolidate. It is true that, since then, the Treasury has had second thoughts and believes that it has such power to consolidate the Statutory Instruments relating to superannuation, but there is a doubt. I am not sure what reasoning lay behind the first decision nor, indeed, behind the change of mind. All I know is that there was a doubt at the time and that that doubt may arise again in future.
    We now have this Bill before us and it is, therefore, simple and sensible to put the matter beyond doubt. I am sure that that is what this Clause would do. We should not miss the opportunity of setting side any doubt on this question, so that the Statutory Instruments can be consolidated from time to time, making the law more certain and easier of reference.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Niall MacDermot): The hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) has moved a highly technical and complicated Clause with his usual clarity and persuasiveness and I hope that I can make myself as clear. I must, however, advise the Committee to reject the Clause for two reasons.
    The first is the reason he himself indicated—that we now take the view that we have the power to consolidate these rules if we wish to without any need for special legislation. The second reason is that we are quite satisfied that if we have the power we will not use it and I will explain why.
    I should explain, first, perhaps, that these rules are made under Section 2 of the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1948, and provide for the transfer of pension rights on payment of a transfer value when staff move between the Civil Service and public boards. The original rules were made in 1950 and have never been changed. All that amending rules do is to add from time to time new bodies to the list of those to and from which transfer on these terms is possible.
    As the hon. Member said, when the question was first raised, by the Select Committee, of the possibility of consolidating these rules, the reply given, on the advice of the Treasury Solicitor, was that there was no power to do it. The
    1224
    reason was that, under Section 2 of the 1948 Act, under which the rules are made, it is provided that a person transferring before the making of rules may opt that the rules should not apply to him. As the law stood, it was thought that the making of a new set of consolidating rules would require the giving of fresh options to those who had been in this position when the original rules were made and giving the option for the first time to those who had transferred since the original rules were made. The advice of Parliamentary counsel now is that this, which was supposed to be an obstacle, can be overcome, so it is thought, without legislation.
    The view is that consolidation of rules would, by definition, be in place of existing rules and the option under Section 2(5) of the 1948 Act must, therefore, be an option to fall back on the unconsolidated rules, and, therefore, anyone would be given the right to a fresh option by the act of consolidation. That is the highly technical reason why it is thought that there is no need for special legislation.
    The position under the Police Pensions Act was different. The reason for legislating on that occasion was that Section 3 of the Police Pensions Act, 1948, provided that regulations might be framed so as to apply in relation to persons who, at the date when the regulations come into force, are or subsequently become members of any police force. Consequently, consolidating regulations could not apply to persons who had retired before the consolidating regulations were made. The position under these rules is different in that Section 2(5) of the 1948 Act expressly provides that the rules may be retrospective in regard to previous transfers and provides an option in these cases.
    The reason why we do not think that there is any occasion to consolidate is as follows. The prime object of consolidation is, by reducing the multiplicity of legislative provisions to a single up-to-date document, to simplify the task of those who operate the law and need to know what it is. In this case, consolidation would not serve that object. As I have said, the original rules remain intact and unamended. They contain all the substantive body of legislation and all that remains is a list of the various bodies on what I might call the transfer list.

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    That list is printed and kept up-to-date in a Treasury handbook known as the Estacode, which is in the possession of of anyone who is likely to need the full list; and, of course, it is very few people who are responsible for administering these rules who need the complete list. The particular persons affected would reed to look, not at all these documents, but merely at the one which related to them, if it was an amendment, and the original body of the rules. We are quite satisfied, therefore, that there would be no practical advantage in consolidating, and if we had the power we would not use it. For these reasons, I must urge the House to reject the new Clause.
    Mr. Graham Page: I am very satisfied to have it on record that the Clause is unnecessary and that there is power in the Bill to carry out consolidation. I am disappointed that the hon. and learned Gentleman has stated that he does not intend to consolidate the Statutory Instruments, but that is something which I cannot pursue here. I shall pursue it elsewhere. In the circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    Clause 4.—(OTHER PROVISIONS RELATING TO DIPLOMATIC SERVICE.)
    Mr. Graham Page: I beg to move, in page 4, to leave out lines 22 to 29 and to insert:
    "shall be made by statutory instrument, of which a draft has been approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament, and may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order similarly made".
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): I think that it will be for the convenience of the House if we take with this Amendment the Amendment in page 4, line 37, after "instrument", insert:
    "(of which a draft has been approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament)"
    and the Amendment in Clause 6, page 6, line 33, leave out from "instrument" to end of line 34 and insert:
    "of which a draft has been approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament and may be varied or revoked by subsequent rules similarly made".
    Mr. Graham Page: I am obliged, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
    The three Amendments deal with an important constitutional point. They deal
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    with the opportunity which should be given to this House to debate the exercise of the powers of delegated legislation given in the Bill, in particular to the Treasury.
    The first Amendment seeks to leave out the lettered paragraphs of subsection (2) and to substitute words to the effect that any Statutory Instrument under the Clause shall not be made unless a draft has been brought before both Houses of Parliament and approved by a resolution of both Houses. As the Clause stands, the Statutory Instruments could be made, come into effect and lie upon the Table for 40 days awaiting anyone to pray against them for annulment. That is to say, they would be subject only to the negative Resolution procedure and not to the affirmative procedure.
    Subsection (2) gives power to the Treasury, by an Order of this sort, to amend Statutes. It does not merely give power to make Orders under the Bill to carry out the Bill further, but it gives power to amend two categories of Statute—an Act which refers to Her Majesty's Foreign Service and an Act dealing with any office, rank or grade in the Civil Service. So, in short, the Treasury may by Order, subject only to the negative Resolution procedure, alter Statutes which have solemnly been passed by Parliament if those Statutes deal with the Foreign Service or the Civil Service.
    10.45 p.m.
    As far as I can see, this Clause is not restricted to anything to do with superannuation. Superannuation matters are not mentioned in the Clause at all, so it is very wide in the powers which it gives to the Treasury. The Treasury can exercise these powers subject only to annulment by the House.
    There are certain recognised constitutional precedents for the choice of procedure for delegated legislation, and, in particular, the choice between the affirmative Resolution procedure and the negative procedure, that is to say, the choice between the Government being obliged to bring the Statutory Instrument before the House in draft or otherwise so that it may positively be approved by the House or, alternatively, letting it lie on the Table in the hope that nobody will pray against it in the 40 days.

    1227
    These recognised constitutional precedents for the choice of procedure were expressed by Sir Alan Ellis to the Select Committee on Delegated Legislation in 1963. That Committee, in its Report, quotes Sir Alan Ellis's evidence. He divided the Statutory Instruments into three main categories and one miscellaneous one, and the very first one which he said should, according to precedent, have the affirmative procedure and not the negative procedure was this category. He placed in the first class the powers which when exercised will substantially affect the provisions of an Act whether by altering its language or increasing or limiting its extent or duration or otherwise.
    This exactly fits Clause 4(2). Here the Treasury is given power to alter any Act it may choose which applies to the Foreign Service or the Civil Service, and this is covered by the constitutional precedent which Sir Alan Ellis gave and it ought to have the affirmative Resolution procedure in the House and not the negative Resolution procedure. It ought to be brought before the House for specific approval by it when the Government wishes to make an Order under this Clause.
    Of course, the Superannuation Acts have given powers on delegated legislation to the Treasury a great deal, but the very first one that I can trace which gave power to the Treasury to alter the Statutes was a Superannuation Act in 1909. By Section 7(2) of that Act a draft was required to be laid before Parliament before an order under that Act became effective. That, I think, is the first and a very respectable precedent for the Amendments which I have on the Order Paper. That formula was repeated in the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944, and again in the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959.
    The cases in which the Treasury has been given the right to use the negative Resolution procedure are quite clearly the minor type of cases. I think that one can divide them into, first, the case where the Treasury has been given power to alter only the Act itself in which the provision is given to make the Order; secondly, where it is given power to alter any specific Act but within very definite limits; and, thirdly, where it is given power to alter generally Statutes in order
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    to bring in periods of time for pension purposes where the pensioner has been in other employment.
    The most exact precedent, however, for what the Government wish to do under Clause 4(2) is found in the Foreign Service Act, 1943. That Act was very similar to the Bill before us. It was setting up superannuation for the Foreign Service, and this Bill is setting up superannuation for the new Diplomatic Service. In the 1943 Act the wording is almost the same as the wording of Clause 4(2) of the Bill. Section 6 of the Act said:
    "His Majesty, on the recommendation of the Secretary of State, may by Order in Council make such other amendments of any enactment as appear to Him to be consequential on the establishment or reorganisation of His foreign service, including in particular such amendments of any reference to an office, rank or grade as appear to Him to be consequential on the abolition or alteration of the description thereof or on the creation of any new office, rank or grade corresponding thereto."
    That is very similar to the first part of Clause 4(2), but then, instead of going on with this entirely new formula, that Section of the 1943 Act had this proviso:
    "Provided that the Secretary of State shall not recommend His Majesty to make an Order in Council under this subsection unless a draft thereof has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament."
    Why have the Government chosen not to take that precedent, but to produce this entirely new formula in Clause 4(2,a,b,c), which, to start with, enables the Treasury—retrospectively—to repeal Statutes by an Order? We have been talking a lot today about retrospective legislation, but here the Treasury is given power not by another Act passed through this House but by Statutory Instrument which is subject only to the negative Resolution procedure to make an Order which will take effect as from 1st January, 1965. This really is a very serious constitutional point, to give power to a Government Department by Order subject only to the negative Resolution procedure not only to repeal a Statute, but to repeal it from a past date. This really ought not to be allowed to pass through this House.
    For that new formula I want to substitute the accepted constitutional principle that the Government should bring before this House an Order in draft for it to be debated. What have they got to fear from this? The House does not

    1229
    normally hold up these Orders, but it does want to know the contents of them, and especially when such wide powers are given to a Government Department as are given under Clause 4(2).
    Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
    House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
    Mr. Graham Page: I omitted to mention the other two Amendments which, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you kindly said we could take with this one. The principle is exactly the same. I do not want to delay the House any further. Under Clauses 4 and 6 the Treasury is given power to alter Statutes, and again it should do so by means of a draft Order brought before this House.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: I hope the Financial Secretary will be able to accept my hon. Friend's, suggestions. My hon. Friend has pointed out that it is normal practice for the affirmative procedure to be used where Statutes are to be amended. He has great knowledge in this sphere and is the Chairman of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments.
    I do not want to hold up the proceedings, but I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will be able to satisfy my hon. Friend. The precedent of the Foreign Service Act, 1943, seems especially apt in this respect, because the Bill seeks to carry out proposals of a similar nature to those reforms in the foreign service.
    As far as I can see, there would be no question of delay in the procedure which my hon. Friend proposed. Rather, the procedure might be quicker in this House if his suggestion were accepted.
    Mr. MacDermot: I am sure it is the wish of hon. Members that I should persuade the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) on these matters, if for no other reason than that, as the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell) said, he is the Chairman of the Select Committee which is charged by the House to concern itself with these matters and to report on them to the House.
    I would, of course, accept, as the hon. Gentleman does, the opinion of Sir Alan Ellis, which was quoted with approval
    1230
    by the Select Committee on Delegated Legislation in 1953, as to the guide lines at least of the proper exercise of the affirmative procedure. He suggested, in effect, that there were three categories of delegated legislation which it was better to deal with by the affirmative procedure. First, powers which, when exercised, would substantially affect the provisions of an Act of Parliament. Secondly, powers to impose financial charges, such as Purchase Tax Orders. Thirdly, skeleton powers where the parent Act simply fixes the purposes and leaves the whole substance of the law to be dealt with by subordinate legislation. There are, of course, a number of other miscellaneous cases of special importance, but, in so far as it is possible to extract general principles, I think that those are the three generally accepted ones.
    In Civil and Diplomatic Service superannuations there already exists a high degree of Parliamentary control. I think that this is a relevant matter for the House to bear in mind. There are many other superannuation schemes under delegated legislation which are not under statutory control to anything like the same extent as Civil Service superannuation, though in some of the schemes in the nationalised industries and the Health Service there is far less Parliamentary control.
    The Bill is an example of the extent to which Parliament has deemed it right that it should supervise closely the superannuation for the Civil Service, but at the same time provision is being made in the Bill for the subordinate detail to be dealt with by Statutory Instruments whenever this is practicable and consistent with the general principles of Parliamentary control.
    The object is to save Parliamentary time and enable minor modifications to be made quickly. This is in line with the views of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, and my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Randall) referred to this matter during the Second Reading debate, urging that the Treasury should be bolder and make greater use of delegated legislation in this field. I certainly welcomed his remarks on that occasion and promised to consider carefully any proposals that might be put forward in that direction.

    1231
    Against this background, I can only suggest that these Amendments would be a retrograde step. When examined carefully it will be seen that these powers do not fall within the first or, indeed, any of Sir Alan Ellis's three categories. Dealing first with the first Amendment, I should point out that subsection (2) is not the wide-ranging provisions which the hon. Member for Crosby thought. It gives power to amend the provisions of an Act of Parliament, but it would not do so in a substantive way, still less in a substantial way.
    11.0 p.m.
    I agree with the hon. Member: my first reading of the subsection led me to think that it conferred the rather wide powers which he suggested, but I have taken advice on the matter, from those far better qualified than I, and I am assured that in fact the power is a very narrow one. It empowers the Treasury to amend old legislation which refers in terms to the Foreign Service. The Foreign Service ceased to exist on 1st January of this year, and thereafter references to it in any legislation will be meaningless. We have taken the opportunity, in the First Schedule, to amend references to the Foreign Service in all previous legislation which our diligent researches have been able to unearth, but it is human to err, and we realise that there may be odd provisions tucked away which we have failed to discover which still contain references to the Foreign Service.
    We cannot confine the amending power under the subsection to a power to substitute for a reference to "Foreign Service" a reference to the new "Diplomatic Service", because it may not be quite as simple as that. It may be necessary to amend in a slightly more complicated way. All that is intended—and I am assured all that there would be power to do under the subsection—is to amend legislation having regard to the establishment of Her Majesty's Diplomatic Service, and that only an Amendment which was consequential upon that change would be intra vires within these regulations.
    If the House can accept that it will probably agree that these would become something in the nature of procedural Amendments, and not a substantive
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    matter of legislation requiring the affirmative procedure.
    Mr. Graham Page: I am satisfied about what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said about the Foreign Service, but the Clause goes on to refer to
    "an office, rank or grade in the civil service …"
    which seems to be a very wide phrase.
    Mr. MacDermot: Yes, but again, although it refers to an office, rank or grade in the Civil Service, only changes which are
    "expedient having regard to the establishment of Her Majesty's diplomatic service of to any reorganisation of the grades of that service"
    will give any power to legislate under this subsection. There would not be power to make wider changes relating to the superannuation legislation for the Civil Service which were not consequent upon the establishment of Her Majesty's Diplomatic Service. I will check this point, but I think I am right in saying that this is a case of the greater including the lesser, that the Diplomatic Service forms part of the Civil Service.
    With regard to the point on retrospection, here again one wants to watch carefully any power in subordinate legislation to make retrospective legislation. I think, however, that it is clear that the effect, though formally retrospective, would be wholly beneficial. What it does is to enable the Treasury to provide that any reference to the Foreign Service becomes a reference to the Diplomatic Service from the moment that that Foreign Service ceases to exist. If there is to be a power to make amendments of this kind, it must be retrospective to the date on which the Diplomatic Service was established. I think that the case for retrospection here is self-evident; it is a provision which should be preserved, and cannot give rise to any fears. On the point which the hon. Member for Crosby interjected a moment ago, I understand that the position is that High Commissioners in the Commonwealth are in the Civil Service. That is the reason for the wider reference.
    Turning to the second of the Amendments, I must say that, here again, any necessary Statutory Instrument would be purely consequential in nature. Clause 2(1) provides for gratuities for

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    members of the secretarial branch of the Diplomatic Service, and Clause 3(3) provides for special conditions to apply on the compulsory early retirement of members of the Service in grades outside Grades 1 to 8. The particular organisation of the Service which these references reflect may have to be altered in the light of experience. The purpose, therefore, of Clause 4(4) is to enable the references to be altered to fit any reorganisation which the Secretary of State may decide upon, without the need to amend the Act. I should emphasise that reorganisation itself would not require Parliamentary sanction. The Dower in Clause 4(4) is deliberately restricted to the modification of references to grades. It does not provide for any modification of the benefits payable or of the conditions attaching thereto. Again, therefore, I think that it is fair to say that this cannot be regarded as a Provision which enables legislation to be amended in any substantive way.
    The effect of the third Amendment would be to oblige rules made under Clause 6 to be made under the affirmative procedure. I must concede at once that the power to make rules under Clause 6 is certainly a wide one, but public office legislation is pre-eminently a suitable field for the delegation of Parliamentary authority. As far back as 1892, the provision was made for public office rules to be dealt with under the negative procedure, although in one case—I think in 1909—the affirmative procedure was used. The object of the public office provisions is, in itself, simply to provide, for those concerned, superannuation benefits which are as nearly as possible equivalent to what they would have earned if their whole career had been spent in one public office, the Civil Service. But the provisions have to be highly technical in order to achieve this object, because of the multiplicity of the Superannuation Act provisions which have to be applied to varying kinds of career.
    Both of these considerations suggest that Parliamentary time should not be taken up in considering subordinate legislation. All that the Instruments made under this power would do is to reproduce as nearly as possible for persons in public offices the provisions of
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    the Superannuation Act, which Parliament has already considered in the legislation and decided to be appropriate.
    It is not a case, therefore, of falling within Sir Alan Ellis's third category of skeleton powers, and the substance of the law to be applied by the subordinate legislation would be law which had already been approved by Parliament and embodied in the Superannuation Act. I agree at once that the wording of the Clause is widely drafted, but I am assured that wide drafting was necessary in order to permit the provision of benefits corresponding to the Act in widely differing circumstances, and to allow public office superannuation to keep pace with any changes in the Act in the future. But I am very willing to give an undertaking on behalf of the Government to ensure that public office superannuation neither outstrips nor, except where this is unavoidable, falls short of Civil Service superannuation proper. This is in the Government's own interest as an employer as well as in the interests of their employees.
    The House will remember that there is also this provision in Clause 6 (5):
    "If the application of the rules in force under this section would put a particular individual in a position less advantageous than that in which he would have been if the rules did not apply in relation to him, they shall not be so applied."
    That is an additional safeguard in the Act.
    I hope that, after this explanation and this assurance, the hon. Member will be satisfied that these are proper matters to be dealt with by the negative procedure and that he will not press the Amendment.
    Mr. Graham Page: I am very satisfied with the hon. Member's explanation of the position with respect to my second Amendment—in page 4, line 37—and with respect to my third Amendment—in Clause 6—and even if you were to permit me to move them, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I should not wish to do so. I am not satisfied about the first Amendment, dealing with Clause 4(2). I think that these powers are far too wide for the Treasury. Under the circumstances, I shall not withdraw the Amendment but shall allow it to be negatived.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. Graham Page: I beg to move, in page 4, line 41, to leave out from "reorganisation" to the end of line 45.
    This is a short point and I am sure that the Financial Secretary can explain it quickly. The Amendment deals with the lines of the subsection which read,
    "and if any question arises whether a person at any time was a member of Her Majesty's diplomatic service, or of the Secretarial Branch or of any other grade or grades, that question shall be determined by the Secretary of State, and his decision shall be final."
    This is somewhat peremptory for the employees. Surely this is a question of fact. Why should the diplomat and secretary be prevented from going before the normal appeals tribunal set up for those in the Service? Why should there be this final decision by the Secretary of State? The Amendment proposes to leave those lines out and therefore to leave the diplomat and the secretary the ordinary procedure of the appeals tribunal in the Service.
    11.15 p.m.
    Mr. MacDermot: If I were feeling in a Machiavellian mood I should accept this Amendment, because I can assure the hon. Gentleman that its effect would be precisely nothing. The provision which it proposes should be omitted from the Bill is declaratory and is included for the sake of greater clarity. Let me explain what the object and purpose is.
    The need for this provision arises from the fact that there will continue to be staff employed in both the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office who are not members of the Diplomatic Services; for example, home service messengers and United Kingdom based copy typists. The words it is proposed should be left out are primarily inserted, as I have said, for the sake of clarity. The power of decision reserved to the Secretary of State already attaches to any Minister in charge of a Public Department, and there is no appeal against his decisions in the courts. Nor does this position affect the ability of the staff associations to make representations to the Secretary of State about the form his final decision on any matter should take in any individual case.
    There is no relevant appeals tribunal and superannuation is not subject to arbitration. So whether this provision stands or not, any such representations
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    which were made would be carefully considered, although, of course, the decision of the Secretary of State would be final.
    The result, therefore, is that the Amendment does not have any practical effect, but the House will agree, I think, that it is preferable that the words should remain in the Bill so that there is the virtue of letting the staff know where it stands.
    Mr. Graham Page: I am grateful for the hon. and learned Gentleman's estimation of my Amendment, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    Clause 7.—(MEANING OF "PUBLIC OFFICE" AND SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS.)
    Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move, in page 7, line 24, at the end to insert:
    6. Employment as an officer to whom the Overseas Service Act 1958 applies (if not employment within any of the other paragraphs in this subsection).
    The effect of this Amendment is to add those officers to whom the Overseas Service Act, 1958, applies to the lists of employment which Clause 7 declares to be "public offices" and to which the rules under Clause 6 apply.
    The Act of 1958 established what have come to be known as the Special Lists of the Overseas Civil Service. Before then, the Colonial Service or the Overseas Civil Service, though appointed on behalf of the Colonial Secretary, were persons employed exclusively by the Governments of the Colonies and overseas territories concerned. Subsequently, many territories were coming up for independence, and members of the staffs tended to feel that their positions were insecure, although it was clearly understood that it was necessary to keep a proportion in their posts in order to see the territories through to independence.
    The 1958 Act was introduced with the object of putting Her Majesty's Government in substantially the direct relationship of an employer of overseas staff, and one of the provisions included was to apply the "public office" terms for the transfer of superannuation rights to and from the Civil Service, when appropriate, to all persons to whom that Act applied.
    In practice, this scheme has been applied only in Nigeria, but there is a

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    substantial body of staff now serving us on those terms, including many staff of the Post Office who may wish to return to the Post Office in this country, and for whom the home pension rights are particularly important.
    That subsection of the 1958 Act repealed in the Fourth Schedule to the Bill is part of the process of sweeping away the old legislation, but the employment of the staff concerned is not specifically referred to in Clause 7(1). One possibility might have been to deal with this group by an Order under Clause 7(2), but, on reflection. it seems inappropriate to ask Parliament to repeal Section 3(2) of the 1958 Act by express legislation and then replace it immediately by subordinate legislation. It was thought, therefore, preferable and more satisfactory to deal with it in the Bill itself. Hence this Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

  Schedule 2.—(AMENDMENTS OF SUPERANNUATION ACTS AND OF OTHER PEN SION ACTS.)
  Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move, in page 16, line 24, to leave out "sub-paragraph" and to insert "sub-paragraphs".
  I hope it is apparent that this Amendment is purely to correct a typographical error.
  Amendment agreed to.

  14 & 15 Geo. 5. c. 17

  …

  The County Courts Act 1924

  In section 4 (2) (b) the words from "and subsection (2) of section six" to "office)".

  15 & 16 Geo. 5. c. 49

  …

  The Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act 1925.

  In section 128 (1) (b) the words from "and subsection (2) of section six" to "office)".

  24 & 25 Geo. 5. c. 53

  …

  The County Courts Act 1934

  In section 21 (3) the words "and subsection (2) of section six".

  Part II of the Fourth Schedule repeals a number of provisions which are spent or otherwise obsolete. This Amendment adds three more to the list of provisions which I am afraid were overlooked when the Schedule was originally drafted. They have now been discovered and are put forward in this Amendment for completeness.
  Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move, in page 18, line 49, after "paragraph", to insert:
  "may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order and any order under this paragraph."
  Paragraph 21 of the Second Schedule authorises the Treasury to provide by Order that mental health officers in the National Health Service may, on transfer to the Civil Service, have their service as a mental health officer treated as though it were service in the Prison Service—that is to say, that all years of service after 20 should count at double rate for superannuation purposes. The paragraph does not at present provide that an order made under it may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order. There is a general power of revocation and variation under the Interpretation Act, 1889, but, unfortunately, that does not extend to orders.
  Therefore, while it may be desirable at some future date to vary or revoke the order under paragraph 21, it would not be possible to do so without further legislation unless this paragraph were amended to include the express power. There is no need to do this foreseen at the moment, but out of an abundance of caution we think it right to have the power so as to avoid wasting the time of the House on a future occasion.
  Amendment agreed to.

  Schedule 4.—(REPEALS.)
  Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move, in page 22, line 40, at the end to insert:
  I can explain to the House what each of the particular provisions refer to if anyone wishes me to do so.
  Amendment agreed to.
  11.24 p.m.
  Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  This Bill has had a smooth passage. There has been friendly co-operation from

  1239
  both sides of the House on what is a non-party matter, and, as I made clear in moving the Second Reading, this is a Bill which we willingly inherited from our predecessors.
  The preparation of this Bill is also the fruit of earlier co-operation between the official and staff sides of the Civil Service National Whitley Council, and I know the House will join with me in paying tribute to the methods and negotiations which have been built up in the Civil Service and to the responsible rôle which the staff side plays in these matters.
  This is a very technical Bill, and the many detailed changes that it makes in the law further complicate the language of the superannuation Acts, even though they are all beneficial in their effect. But the first remedy for this lies in consolidation, and, as the House will know, it is to pave the way for consolidation that a number of provisions have been put in the Bill. The House will be glad to know that work is far advanced on a consolidation Bill which the Government hope to introduce in the present Session. To illustrate the complexities of this matter, I might say that the consolidation Bill will propose to repeal in whole or in part no fewer than 17 Acts of Parliament, the earliest of which goes back to 1834.
  This consolidation should put the law in a more satisfactory shape. The Act will contain a number of powers to make minor adjustments by Statutory Instrument without the difficulty and delay of legislation. Some of these powers are being granted under the present Bill. Others already appear in the existing Superannuation Acts.
  This is an important matter, as appears from our discussions here this evening. When the consolidation has been done, we can look clearly and comprehensively at the structure of the Acts as they are, and, as I indicated to the House on Second Reading, I shall at that time be glad to receive any representations on this question and look carefully at any proposals which may be made.
  Since the Bill was presented, the new Diplomatic Service has come into
  1240
  existence on 1st January. The first main purpose of the Bill was to provide appropriate superannuation arrangements for this new Service in accordance with the recommendations of the Plowden Committee. I hope and believe that the House is satisfied that the Bill fulfils those purposes as well as the other main objectives of removing anomalies and paving the way for consolidation. I ask the House, if it is satisfied with these things, to give the Bill a Third Reading.
  11.27 p.m.
  Mr. Gordon Campbell: We on this side of the House shall be glad to see the Bill receive a Third Reading. In general, we welcome it. As the Financial Secretary has said, the first four Clauses carry out changes in the new Diplomatic Service recommended by the Plowden Committee on retirements and pensions. Other Clauses rationalise pension rules in some respects in the public service.
  I should like to be associated with the hon. and learned Gentleman in applauding the success of the negotiations within the Civil Service which led to agreement on these changes and also to congratulate Lord Plowden and his Committee on the extremely valuable service they performed. They quickly apprehended the main problems and issues in the service abroad, after studying conditions in various parts of the world. I hope that other recommendations which they made will also be carried out quickly.
  My eye had also fallen on the words which the Financial Secretary quoted from Clause 6(5), where it is stated that if provisions are less advantageous to the individual they will not be applied. I like the spirit of that, and I hope that it will suffuse all actions in dealing with the cases of individuals in the public service, and especially those who have to move about the world and live in difficult climates and conditions. I thank the Financial Secretary for his explanations, both here and in Standing Committee, of what have been necessarily complicated subjects on which we put questions to him.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  HOSPITALS (NORTH-EAST ESSEX)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fitch.]
  11.29 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I asked for this Adjournment debate to draw attention to the problem of hospitals in north-east Essex. I particularly want to concentrate on the task which at present is being imposed on the Clacton Hospital. The population in Frinton, Walton and Clacton will have been increased by about 10,000 by the end of this year compared with what it was in 1959. We have absorbed in that area what could be said is the equivalent of a small new town, without any appreciable improvement yet in the available hospital service. The problem is made more serious because a large proportion of this new population are elderly people joining a community which already has a high percentage, the proportion of elderly people in our people being 22 per cent. as compared with the average for the country as a whole of only 12 per cent.
  All this has resulted in the waiting list of 57 in 1956 for 50 beds and eight cots being increased in 1964 to 252, to the number attending out-patient clinics increasing from 5,568 in 1961 to 10,771 in 1964, to the units of work increasing in the X-ray department from 7,507 in 1961 to 12,034 in 1964. Moreover, ours is a seaside resort area, and our population of 40,000 is doubled in the summer months. Taking both this factor and the large percentage of the elderly, our problems are almost as serious as those taxing the hospital in Colchester, but I shall eave that to be dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Buck), if he is fortunate in catching the eye of the Chair.
  With reference to Clacton Hospital, will the Minister tell us when we are likely to have the additional beds promised after I went, with the previous chairman of the Clacton Council, to see the North-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board in January, 1964, and the Minister of Health, after receiving advice from the Board, included our programme in the second revision of the Hospital Plan published in May, 1964? I understood then that 1964 would be the
  1242
  first year of a three-year programme to provide essential temporary improvements such as new X-ray apparatus, a new children's ward, a new additional ward, and other items. What is the present position as regards these essential temporary improvements and the other things which have been promised? Is the time-table being met? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise how serious will be the danger if there is a slippage?
  Second, when is the land for the promised new main hospital to be bought? Why is it that the Ministry of Health can acquire land only five years in advance for the building of hospitals yet there is no such limitation for educational building? Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the serious problem this entails in proper planning? Moreover, because of the limitation, there is a danger that the land scheduled for the new hospital may be used for other purposes. Can this ruling be altered so that the land may be acquired in advance of the five-year limit?
  Over and above these questions, however, is the most important problem we have in our area in the care of the elderly. For Clacton Hospital there is no alternative to having a large number of its beds occupied by geriatric cases, with the consequence that facilities for acute cases are, to that extent, markedly reduced. The situation is most serious and demands immediate and progressive remedy, and it is this particularly which moved me to ask for this Adjournment debate. If we could find the means to cater for the growing number of geriatric cases, we should be able to ease the requirement for a new general hospital.
  I am attracted more and more by the idea of a day hospital on the lines of that developed in Cambridge. It should be possible, with modern building methods, to construct an economical and efficient hospital to which the elderly could go from their own homes for treatment. But this calls for more district nurses, more home helps, and a wider use of the meals on wheels service.
  I am sure that this could be developed into a human and economical service and could cater particularly for the special needs of our area where people, quite rightly, like to live in their own homes for as long as possible. I would make such a hospital an urgent priority. It is

  1243
  something which can be done quickly and could help to solve not only the problem of the geriatric cases but would make more beds available for more acute cases.
  Let the right hon. Gentleman make urgent inquiry into this and report on whether something cannot be done along these lines to ease both treatment of our geriatric cases and the problems facing the Clacton Hospital. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the present priorities are the right ones? It is because I believe it is necessary to concentrate our limited resources on our vital needs that I ask for this urgent inquiry.
  Lastly, I pay tribute to the doctors, surgical nurses, hospital staff and many other voluntary workers, including those serving on the boards themselves who do so much with the limited means available to help cater for the special needs that face us. We are not asking a great deal, but as our area is growing quickly, particularly catering for the retired, we cannot be complacent.
  It is vital that something be done quickly to meet these urgent requirements, and indeed we should think and plan on a big enough scale to meet the larger population expected in the next 20 years. There is a danger that, unless there is a new look for the hospital services in the area, the medical services will be in danger of becoming in a critical state in 10 to 15 years time. Some good authorities have told me that if there is to be a considerable increase in population the services will be in grave danger of breaking down unless early remedial action is taken. There is still time for action, but now is the critical point when important decisions have to be made.
  11.37 p.m.
  Mr. Antony Buck: I welcome the opportunity to raise some of the problems which confront the Colchester area generally and, in particular, the Essex County Hospital. The position in Colchester is already desperate. There is, of course, a vast plan for increasing the population of Colchester and an influx of population has been brought about already through the admirable new university which we have situated just outside Colchester, virtually on the boundaries of my constituency
  1244
  and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale).
  All these factors are likely to cause the position to become worse unless something dramatic is done. The present position is well known to the Minister. I wrote to him about it soon after he took office, and I know that he has gone into it with great care. I have been in telephonic communication with the chairman of the St. Helena Group tonight and am informed that the waiting list at the Essex County Hospital is nudging 3,000. Of that figure, nearly 600 have been waiting for a period of upwards of a year for treatment. Many people are going about in discomfort because of what is known as lack of cold surgery for things like varicose veins and other complaints which can cause great hardship. People in this category have been waiting to be dealt with for a year.
  The position can best be illustrated by the fact that, in Colchester, with a population of over 60,000 and a large catchment area, there are about 200 beds available at the Essex County Hospital. Before the First World War, when the population was about 45,000, there were 175 beds available. The former Administration must take some responsibility for this and we must see that the position is rectified. The only reason that there is not a total breakdown at the moment is good faith. First there is the utter, complete devotion of those who work at the Essex County Hospital—the doctors, the nurses, those in what are often known as the professions ancillary to medicine, and the whole lay, non-medical staff of the hospital. They are working in the very gravest conditions at a tremendous pitch. It is largely through their utter devotion that there has not been a breakdown.
  Secondly, there has not been a breakdown because of what may be described as the improvisation, the emergency measures which have been taken. The facts are that there has been an alleviation of the position through the utilisation of other hospitals, and the new surgical unit which at some considerable expense has been set up and is helping considerably. Further, there is increasing use of the military hospital. I went to see it some two years ago and found it was working at well under capacity, and I made a plea for greater utilisation of the

  1245
  services of that hospital, and that has now been brought about. One is very grateful to the Army medical authorities, and also for the way in which the civilian doctors are co-operating with them. This has been another factor. The position in the last few weeks has somewhat improved because of slight betterment of the recruiting of nurses which has taken the pressure off slightly at Severalls Hospital. But it is only because of these factors, the utter devotion of the staff of the Essex County Hospital, the new surgical unit at Severalls Hospital, the military hospital, and the improvement of nursing recruitment which have caused the position to be held.
  Improvisation cannot go any further. We must have a new hospital in Colchester. We must have it now, or at the very first possible opportunity. It came as a bitter disappointment, to put it at its highest, that last summer the postponement of the new hospital for two years was announced by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. I spent hours with the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor—working on him, if I may use that colloquial phrase; and I have started the same process with the right hon. Gentleman, as he knows. From both I have had a good deal of sympathy, but nothing concrete. I regret to say that in the last letter from the right hon. Gentleman he will still not be able to offer me anything concrete. He could only confirm that the new hospital has been given the highest priority commensurate with other regional commitments.
  Tonight I very much hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us something concrete. We should be able to forgive a great deal of what has happened in the first 100 days if, just after them. We could now have a new sense of urgency about these health matters. Tonight I plead with the right hon. Gentleman to give us a direct undertaking that the starting date for Colchester's new general hospital will he brought forward from 1972. I ask him also to take this opportunity particularly to refute the rumours which are going round that the present Government are contemplating a further postponement of hospital building. I hope that if these rumours are right—and they have reached certain people in Colchester—he will give us a direct undertaking that nothing short of a national emergency
  1246
  of almost warlike proportions will cause there to be any postponement. What we should like tonight above all things is for the right hon. Gentleman to announce that there is to be a bringing forward of the starting date, but at the very least we are entitled to have an assurance to settle these rumours going round about the possibility of a further postponement. I plead with the right hon. Gentleman to deal with this matter by direct assurance tonight, and by an announcement of the bringing forward of the new Colchester hospital so desperately needed.
  11.44 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Kenneth Robinson): Perhaps I could first refer to the last observation by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Buck). I really must ask him to be patient a little longer and to await the statement I shall be making very shortly about the hospital building programme.
  I am very glad that the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) and the hon. Member for Colchester have given me this opportunity tonight of referring to the problems of the hospital service in the north-east Essex area. I would at the outset like to join them in the tribute they have paid to the staffs of these hospitals serving this area in the face of admitted difficulties.
  As we have found all over the country, each area has its own special problems, and north-east Essex is not alone in its difficulties. North-east Essex is served by hospitals in the St. Helena—formerly Colchester—group and falls into three parts. First, there is the coastal strip of holiday resorts; secondly, the Port of Harwich and the rural area of the Tendring peninsula; and, thirdly, urban Colchester with the nearby rural area to the west.
  What we have to tackle, therefore, is how to develop hospital facilities for an urban centre while at the same time ensuring good facilities for the more scattered population in the rural areas, and how to supply hospital care for the residents in the coastal resorts while making the necessary arrangements to cope with the influx of summer visitors. That, in short, is the problem.
  The population in this area, as the hon. Member for Harwich said, is increasing and is likely to go on doing so.

  1247
  According to my information, the 1938 population was 168,000; by 1963 it was 204,000. It is estimated that by 1975 the numbers will be 274,000 and by 1981 308,000. In Colchester itself, the present population of some 67,500 is expected to expand to 100,000 by 1981; and in Clacton, Frinton and Walton the present population of some 40,000 may increase to 70,000 by 1981.
  Perhaps I may say a word about existing facilities for the whole area. Colchester, which perhaps not surprisingly is the particular concern of the hon. Member for Colchester, is a natural centre for hospital services and has a number of hospitals. There is the Essex County Hospital to which the hon. Gentleman referred and which is a former voluntary hospital of 179 beds. While buildings have been added to it at various times since the First World War, parts of it date back to the early nineteenth century. Most of the acute work of the group is undertaken at this hospital.
  Then there is St. Mary's Hospital which is a former poor law institution of 170 beds which has been partly modernised. It caters mainly for geriatric patients. Then there is Myland Hospital which was originally an isolation hospital. It has 173 beds and treats acute, geriatric and chest cases. The hospital is housed in pavilion-type wards and First World War huts. Lastly, there is Colchester Maternity Hospital which has 59 beds and occupies two converted houses. However, the hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to know that in our judgment none of these hospitals is suitable for the large-scale development which we envisage for the future.
  There is only one large hospital outside Colchester, and that is the Notley Hospital near Braintree with 438 beds, That hospital, however, is too far from the main centres of population to be of permanent value as a district general hospital. It was formerly a tuberculosis hospital, but now houses a number of specialist units which are used for the region as a whole.
  Clacton, in which I know the hon Member for Harwich is particularly interested, has a small general practitioner hospital of 58 acute and 18 maternity beds and a medical rehabilitation unit
  1248
  which incorporates the Reckitt Convalescent Home. The remaining units in the group are Halstead Hospital of 17 acute beds, Harwich and District Hospital of 30 acute and 10 maternity beds, and Heath Hospital, Tendring, an old Poor Law institution which is wholly geriatric with 141 beds.
  The North-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board, which is responsible for the planning of hospital services in the area, has proposed that the major hospital for the group should be at Colchester and a site for this hospital has already been earmarked. It is expected to be a large one of more than 900 beds and it will provide facilities for acute, paediatric, maternity, ophthalmic and isolation cases. There will be an intensive care unit, a geriatric unit and a special care baby unit and, of course, all the other modern services which a district general hospital can be expected to provide.
  The board has tentatively selected a site which has a number of considerable advantages. Not least, it is easily accessible from the town and from the railway station. I assure the hon. Member for Harwich, however, that the planning of the new hospital does not depend at this stage upon a final decision as to site. It is not being held up on that account.
  The regional hospital board also has plans to provide a small new district hospital at Clacton. The urban district council, I am informed, has been most co-operative in helping the board to find a site and there is every hope that a particular site under consideration would be admirably suited for hospital use and will be made available.
  The hon. Member for Harwich referred in particular to the land on which it is hoped to build the new hospital at Clacton some years hence. The position about this site, which is about 11 acres, is that roughly two-thirds of it belongs to the urban district council, the remaining one-third being in private ownership. The regional hospital board, with the support of the urban district council, has asked for it to be earmarked by the planning authority, the Essex County Council, for hospital purposes. This request is still with the county council but, in the meantime, the private owner has, I understand, served a purchase notice on the county council

  1249
  on refusal of permission to develop his portion of the site for other purposes, and this purchase notice has been accepted. The site, which has been agreed locally to be suitable for the future hospital, is at present earmarked for educational purposes, for which the local council has, I understand, offered an alternative. The negotiations about all this are, I believe, going ahead quite normally and no hitch is expected.
  There are no similar complications attached to the more immediate extensions planned at the existing hospital, which, I understand, will all be contained within its existing site. The council is being fully co-operative in considering the car parking needs of the hospital which, in view of the increased concentration of use of the site, will need to be outside it.
  I should like now to say a word a bout the financial considerations. The regional board had hoped, as was stated in the original Hospital Plan, that it would be able to start work on the new Colchester hospital during the years 1966–67 to 1970–71, and I am told that it had been planned to make a start on the site in 1970. At the time of the second review of the Hospital Plan last year, however, the board had to re-examine the whole of its capital programme in the light of the enlargement and improvement in design of certain major schemes and the need to make more urgent provision for maternity services.
  More detailed estimates of the cost of schemes had become available and in the light of the total allocation of capital moneys which was likely to be made available over the years, it was clear to the board that it would take longer to carry out the plan than was at first thought. As a result of this reappraisal, the board looked again at its priorities and, as the hon. Member for Colchester has said, decided with considerable regret that a start on Colchester was unlikely to be possible before 1972. The board is now planning on that basis. Although the board's intention to provide a small hospital at Clacton was mentioned in the Hospital Plan, there was never any possibility that this could be built in the very near future. Financial
  1250
  priorities make it unlikely even now that the work can start within the next 15 years.
  The hon. Gentleman wondered whether we could not somehow divert funds to speed up hospital development in this area. I must make it clear to him and to the House that it is the responsibility of regional boards to decide priorities for the development of hospital services in their region, and in this case it is primarily for the North-East Metropolitan Board to decide on the allocation to individual schemes of whatever capital moneys are expected to be available. While I do not wish to hold out any hope that funds can be made available by diverting them from other projects, no doubt the hon. Gentlemen know that the later stages of the Hospital Plan cannot be regarded as firm in all respects. So much for the long-term future planning.
  I should like, now, to say a word about the interim measures which are to be taken. I am aware, as the regional board is aware, of the present shortcomings in the hospital services in this area. Indeed, this is why we are having the new general hospitals which I have described, but the board is taking steps to mitigate the present difficulties which cannot be wholly solved until new hospitals are built.
  The first obvious possibility to explore is extending the use of the Military Hospital at Colchester for civilian patients. The board has already made arrangements at Severalls Hospital, which is the psychiatric hospital for the area, for the operating theatre and 30 beds in an adjacent ward to be adapted for acute surgical cases in order to reduce the waiting lists of patients needing operative treatment. This, I think, is a welcome arrangement, and I understand that it has been favourably commented on locally.
  Secondly, additional beds are to be provided at Colchester Maternity Hospital, which will also have a new lift, and in St. Mary's a bed lift has been provided, the sanitary facilities have been improved, and new boiler plant has been installed.
  Thirdly, at Clacton, the board plans to carry out works which will enable the present hospital to cope with additional work until the new hospital can be built.
  The hon. Member for Harwich asked about the timing. The present plan is that improvements to the X-ray department will be started this year, and,

  1251
  within the next two or three years, a new children's ward, additional kitchen and dining room accommodation, a new operating theatre and sterilising facilities and new wards. Here again the urban district council has been most helpful in considering whether extra land can be made available to the hospital in order to provide more room, and without that these developments would not have been possible.
  As regards geriatric provision for Clacton, the hon. Gentleman told me in a letter, but I am not sure that he mentioned it tonight, that he had heard that consideration was being given to using a hotel in Clacton for geriatric patients. I understand that the regional board has no such proposal under consideration, and I do not think it is a proposal which would in any event commend itself to the board. It is true that there are no geriatric beds in Clacton, but the needs of the town are served by Heath
  1252
  Hospital, Tendring, where we made a small increase in the number of beds as recently as November last, and by hospitals in Colchester.
  Taking the group as a whole, there are about 380 geriatric beds in the area, and this is above the national average of 1·4 beds per thousand population. It is well known that the area has more than its normal proportion of old people, but even on the basis of 10 beds per thousand people over 65, which is the alternative calculation, the provision seems to be a generous one. I do not think that as there is no geriatric hospital—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at one minute to Twelve o'clock.

SOCIAL SECURITY
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AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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ROADS
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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Coventry), THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Talbot de Malahide—Took the Oath.
The Lord Templemore—Took the Oath.

FOREIGN INVESTORS AND BRITISH TAXATION
2.30 p.m.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the anxieties of foreign investors, both companies investing in British associates and private investors in British companies, as to the amount of United Kingdom tax they will be called upon to pay after the next Budget, when the proposed corporation tax may have been introduced and the standard rate of income tax will have been increased to 8s. 3d. in the pound; and that the present uncertainty is delaying direct investment in this country, particularly from the U.S.A.; and whether Her Majesty's Government will give favourable consideration to the introduction of a non-residents' tax at a lower rate in lieu of income tax, in order to avoid the diversion of foreign investment to other countries, such as Germany, where the taxation arrangements would be more favourable to them.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, there is No 1nformation to indicate whether or not there are any grounds for the suggestion in the first part of the Question that uncertainty is delaying direct investment in this country from overseas, particularly from the United States. In
1150
regard to the last part of the Question, I cannot add to the answer which my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on December 8, but I will convey the noble Lord's views to my right honourable friend.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer. Will he also convey to his right honourable friend the fact that if a corporation tax of, say, 40 per cent. is introduced, a foreign company investing in a subsidiary in this country would be faced, after the new standard rate of income tax, with total taxation of 6¾ per cent., as against the ¾ per cent. they are paying at the moment in income tax and profits tax?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I happily give that assurance. I have already given it on a previous occasion, and I would draw the noble Lord's attention to what my right honourable friend said on December 8, when he suggested that any representations regarding this tax should be made to Somerset House.

LINKING OF M.1 AND M.6 MOTORWAYS
2.33 p.m.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether plans are now finalised for the linking up of the M.1 with the M.6 and whether a statement can now be made on the programme envisaged up to the final completion date.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, the route of the motorway to connect M.6 with M.1 has been established. Work is under way on two contracts to extend M.6 southwards from Dunston to Darlaston, by the end of 1966. We shall press on with design work, the remaining statutory processes and land acquisition to permit the construction of the rest of this link to M.1 in sections by the early 1970s.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord

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for that reply, may I ask whether he is not aware that, because of the great industrial activity in the Midlands, the congestion is very great? Is it not possible to speed up the granting of contracts and the statutory work that is necessary to try to complete this link at an earlier date than five to six years from now?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, there are really two factors. The first is that the part of the road from Coleshill to Great Barr runs through the urban area of Birmingham and part of the Black Country. That necessitates considerable discussion and negotiation with the local authorities, particularly the Birmingham City Council, and considerable disturbance to householders, industrial organisations, and the rest. The design work on that section has been very difficult compared to the design, land acquisition and construction in open country of a normal motorway. We will do the best we can, and we are having the fullest cooperation from the Birmingham City Council. We hope now to get the design and line cleared comparatively quickly. As to the question of increasing the work by letting additional contracts, there is a limited number, one might say, of civil engineering contractors who are capable of undertaking contracts of this magnitude. There is equally a limit to the labour which is available for their use.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that because of the speed on M.1 and M.6 this particular section has become frustrating and dangerous? Will he not try to persuade his right honourable friend to hurry this matter up, because it is one of the black spots in the Midlands?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, we are doing all we can. The complication here is that there is two-way traffic in Birmingham from both M.6 and M.1. It is an originating and a destination point for this traffic. The complication of going through an urban area—the disturbance to which I referred earlier—is quite considerable. In a democratic country one cannot—and I hope we never shall—ride roughshod over the rights of the individual, and in a city like Birmingham consultations with the local authority and its right to protect the
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citizens of that great city cause a little delay.
LORD REA: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the proposed link does not run through the middle of Birmingham, but well on the outskirts to the North and North-East? The plan has been in operation or in project for many years. Would he accept from me that people of all Parties in every part of the country would like this speeded up as much as he possibly can?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, I think that is perfectly true. It runs from Coles-hill through Castle Bromwich and Perry Barr, and out at Great Barr. Everybody wants it done quickly, except the persons whose property is affected. If noble Lords will give us the authority to ride roughshod over private interests, then it can be done quickly.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, the noble Lord said that there was a limit in giving further contracts because of shortage of equipment and labour. But this work is probably of the greatest possible importance in the country—more important than any other activity of this kind. Therefore, as soon as the statutory requirements have been completed, could not equipment and men be drafted there, if necessary from other places where work is not so urgently required, in order to try to complete these contracts at an early date?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, there are a number of very pressing social factors—housing, schools and hospitals—and there has to be a reasonable allocation of the national resources to the many urgent problems with which the Government have to deal.

NEW MOTORWAYS: CONSTRUCTION AND TOLLS
2.40 p.m.
LORD ST. JUST: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the present progress of construction on new motorways; and whether they are considering introducing a system of tolls on these roads when completed.]
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, our aim remains to have 1,000 miles in use by the early 1970's and, having regard to all the other requirements for public investment, this rate of progress is satisfactory. Our policy is that tolls should be charged on expensive new river crossings which will provide exceptional savings in cost and time to a clearly defined category of road user. But we do not intend that tolls should be charged elsewhere on motorways.
LORD ST. JUST: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply may I just remind him that in Italy, where they have put tolls on all their autostradas, they appear to be having a great success? I am told that it is thought the entire cost of the latest addition to the Costa del Sol autostrada, which runs from Milan right down to Naples, will be covered within the next six years.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, I would suggest that our problems and those of Italy are quite different. In the main, the Italian roads have to deal with tourist traffic, whereas in these highly and densely populated islands the alternative routes from the motorways are considerable and the distances to be covered are much shorter.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what he has just said. Is it not clear that, as commercial and private vehicles pay so much a year, in one way or another, in tax and in maintenance, and on the construction of roads, we should be very glad to hear that the noble Lord thinks that tolls would not be right in this country?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, that was also a factor in the decision to which my right honourable friend has come, but it is also a debatable one.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD SHEPHERD: My, Lords, I should like to inform the House that at a suitable moment after 3.30 my noble friend Lord Mitchison will be making a Statement on housing for Londoners and my noble friend Lord Snow will be making a Statement on the establishment of a Sports Council.

SWEEPSTAKES ON HORSERACES(AUTHORISATION) BILL [H.L.]
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to authorise the promotion of sweepstakes on the result of approved horseraces, and for purposes connected therewith; and to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Jessel.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

THE HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL SERVICES
2.42 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND LORD AUCKLAND rose to call attention to the Hospital and Medical Services, with particular reference to the shortage of physiotherapists and other ancillary grades; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Parliament and the nation have paid their valedictions to one of the greatest statesman of all time, and in that connection there is one Member of your Lordships' House to whom I am sure this House, and the nation as a whole, would like to pay a very deep tribute. I refer, of course, to the noble Lord, Lord Moran. It is unnecessary for me to go into any detail of what the noble Lord, Lord Moran, has achieved. Sufficient to say that on more than one occasion it was through his ability and his courage that Sir Winston Churchill was able to lead this country through to victory.
It is perhaps another unique occasion in this House that we have to-day four maiden speakers. My noble friend Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte has a most distinguished record in the field of the Hospital Service, on hospital management committees and in the field of education, quite apart from her great contribution in the field of politics. Her husband, of course, my right honourable friend the Member for Hampstead, has served this country for a number of years in important Government and Cabinet posts, and between them they have made an admirable husband and wife team in the field of

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Government and public service. I am certain, that we are all looking forward very much to listening to her contribution to this debate.
Then there is the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, who is to address us, from the Government Front Bench, for the first time. Some years ago I went to Leyton to speak for my honourable friend the present Member for Leyton, and I know in what very high regard the people of Leyton, irrespective of Party, held, and continue to hold, the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, and of their indebtedness to him. I wish him a very happy career in this House.
The noble Lord, Lord Segal, has had a distinguished record in the R.A.F.V.R., and in a great many branches of medicine, and he will be a most valuable addition to the professional medical strength in this House. The noble Lord also represented Preston for five years. Finally, we are to have a maiden speech from the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, who has in his time served with distinction as Chairman of the Essex County Council. I know that I represent all sides of this House when I say to all four noble Lords that I wish them well, not only in their maiden speeches but in their careers in this House.
My Lords, this is a particularly suitable time to debate the Medical and Hospital Services. It will not have escaped your Lordships' notice that in the national Press and in the medical Press a great deal of concern is currently being shown, not only about the future of the Health Service but also over the staffing of our hospitals and of local authority matters. I have not put down this Motion to play politics, although I shall have one or two controversial things to say. But I think that at the outset I can say with confidence that both Houses of Parliament, irrespective of Party, want the Health Service to continue working and going from strength to strength, and are genuinely concerned about the shortage of doctors, nurses and physiotherapists and others connected with the medical profession.
We have to-day a distinguished list of speakers, many of whom, with their practical experience in the field of medicine, know more than I. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, who is to wind up this
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debate, is one of our most conscientious Ministers, and I know that he is as concerned as anyone about the present situation. I have sent the noble Lord a list of questions and points, although I will not bother your Lordships with them in any detail, because if I were to quote from the correspondence I have been sent I could detain this House as long as the Covent Garden Opera Company would take to perform Parsifal. But I do not propose to do that.
I would turn first to hospitals. If I may begin with a mildly political point, the late Government have been accused from many sectors of thirteen wasted years, particularly in respect of our Health Service and our Hospital Service. I should be the very last person to defend my Party on every single decision which they made, or did not make, but I would point out that some 200 major schemes have been completed since the inception of the Ten-Year Plan, this very controversial Plan, while the number of general practitioners has increased by some 17 per cent. and of hospital doctors by some 20 per cent.
Let me say at once that that is not enough. There is one fundamental point which needs to be made at the outset, and that is that we in this country are coping with an increasing birthrate—some 3 million more babies per year are being born—and more and more are people living longer. I do not think that any of us would necessarily want that to be checked, but it is placing an intolerable strain on our Hospital and Health Services, and a strain which I suggest no Government, no Party, can solve in one fell swoop.
If I may turn to hospital building, of course building a hospital is not like building a housing estate at Esher or Epsom, or anywhere else. A site has to be found; an architect or architects must be consulted; they have to plan; the hospital has to be staffed; equipment has to be obtained. Above all, there is the problem of recruitment of suitable staffs. It is probably fair to say that the London teaching hospitals, indeed the teaching hospitals throughout the country, are not so seriously short staffed as are the general hospitals and, above all, the mental hospitals, about which I shall have something to say in a few moments. One of the problems is that we are concentrating

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too much on rebuilding old bits of old hospitals rather than building new ones.
Of course, there is the question of cost. It costs a lot of money to build a hospital. As I said in your Lordships' House last July, when we debated hospitals on a Motion by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, I paid a visit to one of our brand new hospitals, the Queen Elizabeth II Hospital at Welwyn Garden City, a hospital which has many attractive features. The patients are exceptionally well cared for, but already the hospital is running into serious difficulties of space. For example, the physiotherapy department, which was originally built to cater for in-patients only, had now, I was given to understand, to cater for the out-patient community of Hatfield New Town and other relatively densely populated areas. I am told, too, that the Luton and Dunstable hospital additions under the Ten-Year Plan were insufficient a year ago; and this must be a problem facing many hospitals.
Of course, any ten-year plan, any five-year plan or fifteen-year plan must depend on the availability of labour and materials and staffing at any given time. I believe that Mr. Powell should be congratulated on having brought in this Ten-Year Plan. As I say, criticisms of it have not been confined to members of the present Government; there have been many criticisms from the Hospital Service as a whole and from other sources, but it is at least a blue-print.
How are we going to combat this problem of hospital building? I believe we have to fight to the death the business of architects getting together and wanting to build the most attractively designed hospital. What we need for our new hospitals are buildings, of a prefabricated type if you like, which will last a reasonable length of time but will also be pliable units and able to switch from one aspect of medicine to another. There is no doubt that there are three main needs to-day: accident departments, maternity departments, and geriatric departments—that is, of the non-mental hospitals. Of course, mental hospitals, as I shall show in a few moments, present a very different picture.
The other day I toured the new site of the future St. George's Hospital which is to be at Tooting. We have here a very curious mixture of really old, almost
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crumbling buildings of the old Grove Fever Hospital, constructed, as fever hospitals were, on stilts to allay the infection from them, and temporary new buildings. Let me say at once that the staffs, from senior consultants and the house governor and the hospital secretary and matron right down to the porters and the most junior student nurse, are working splendidly. The hospital on whose house committee I serve, the Victoria Hospital for Children, in Chelsea, has moved to Tooting already. There were many of us who viewed this move, when it took place, with some regret because it will be, as I understand it, some ten years under the present plan before St. George's will be completely built on its new site. Many of us felt that the hospital for children at Chelsea should continue there for a time yet. But the decision was made; the move has taken place. That has gone smoothly and the wards in which these children are now housed are very pleasant indeed.
Then there is the question of the costing of some of these hospitals. I have studied with some interest the latest progress report, No. 6, of the Ten-Year Plan, and what does rather worry me is to see that in some hospitals a new boiler unit is going to cost about £80, 000. I do not claim to be an authority on this subject, but I am quite certain that this must cause a great deal of concern. I know that hospitals must have the finest type of heating and I have no doubt that the Regional Boards and the engineering departments have gone into this matter very carefully, but I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, whether his right honourable friend has gone into this question of the cost of boiler units and whether other such technical developments have been gone into sufficiently carefully.
The problem of doctors, particularly of the junior grades in hospitals, is already known to your Lordships. But I was reading an article in the Sunday Times Supplement of some two months ago, which said that in Sheffield some 80 per cent., and in Manchester some 60 per cent., of the junior housemen and casualty doctors are from abroad. We are most grateful to these people, but, quite obviously, there are some extremely difficult problems here. One of the main problems is that of language. It is well known that on a Sunday, especially at a

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small general hospital, the casualty departments are staffed to a minimum. This is unavoidable, because otherwise the existing staff would be working round the clock. Quite obviously, this is not possible, or even fair. It may be that a young houseman who does not have a good knowledge of English is on duty. Somebody may come along with a severe cut arising from the usual weekend activities, such as gardening, and this has to be dealt with. The junior doctor sends for a certain drug, and the sister or nurse concerned may misunderstand what he has said. The result, or possible result, is surely plain: a life injury, or in any event some serious injury, may be caused.
I now turn for a moment to general practitioners. There are some noble Lords who are doctors who will be speaking in this debate, so my remarks in this respect will be brief. But your Lordships may have noticed in the Daily Express an article written about a week ago by a general practitioner, aged 54, who has served for thirty years in practice. He heads his article
"Why I refuse to remain a doctor in Britain".
I should like briefly to quote from what he says—namely,
"Let me tell you what life is like for a general practitioner under the National Health Service. I have a one-man practice of 3,000 people which I started from nothing thirty years ago. My working day starts at 8.30 a.m. and finishes, if I am lucky, at 9 p.m. I do two hours in surgery, morning and evening, and the rest of the day, almost without a single break, is spent in making visits. I work between 60 and 70 hours per week. On the average, I am called out from my bed two nights per week. I am required by my contract, under pain of heavy penalties, to be available to each of these 3,000 patients 24 hours a day, 365 days a year."
Now I come to the one really controversial point which I wish to make in this debate. The Government decided to end National Health prescription charges as from February 1. Let me say this at once. It was known for some years that the Government intended to do this, and I am not accusing them of sharp practice. But I am accusing the Government of lack of logic and lack of foresight. What is going to ensue? I know that the Minister of Health in another place said that he did not think that doctors would be
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overworked as a result of these charges being taken off. I have spoken to a number of my local general practitioners. They do not look after wealthy magnates but ordinary family people, and their views are most extreme. In fact, some are so angry that they regard it as a necessity that the patient should pay something for each visit for treatment. I am not going to suggest that in this House to-day. But this is what I have been told by more than one general practitioner, and there has been correspondence on the subject in the British Medical Journal and in other journals. I do not for one moment deny that the idea of removing prescription charges is a fair and sound one, but I feel that before this is done those who work in the National Health Service should be properly remunerated.
Let me make this further point. The recent pay increases to physiotherapists amounted to some £660, 000. The cost of removing prescription charges is likely to be £26 million plus. Even if £3 million of this money has been set aside for the increased remuneration of physiotherapists and their auxiliary grades, they would have got a much better deal than they are getting now. I know that the Government have decided to go ahead with this plan to remove these charges. Nevertheless, I think the point which I am making is a fair and valid one.
In their Election Manifesto the Government said that they were going considerably to increase the number of doctors in the Health Service, and also to increase the number of physiotherapists and radiographers. That is a laudable idea, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is going to tell the House what plans the Government have in mind. I know that they have been in office for only just over 100 days, but I hope that among the things which they have considered is how these new doctors are to be obtained. The medical profession is extremely worried about this.
As regards doctors' pay, there have been a number of inquiries into this, and of course probably no two doctors can agree between themselves whether they should be paid as a salaried service, by capitation or by a pool system. I do not think it is fair to expect any Government to be able to solve this problem off their own bat, but I only hope that

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the Government will give very high priority to the conditions of service and the pay of our doctors.
I should like to turn for a few moments to physiotherapists. The increase which they are getting under the new awards system is paltry indeed, and by the time they have paid the extras which they have to pay many of them will be getting, as I understand it, an addition of about £20 net a year. A young man of my acquaintance, who is partly-sighted, has just moved to Harlow, which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, of course, knows well. He has been a qualified physiotherapist for three years, and will get something like £800 per year, because by moving to Harlow he has lost his London weighting. He was originally in Epsom where he did in fact receive the London weighting. Even if he had moved to Leather-head, which is in the same hospital group, he would have lost the London weighting, for Leatherhead is outside the Metropolitan Area. These matters desperately need looking into by the Government.
Physiotherapy is not an easy job, and it is rueful to note that an ordinary teenage shorthand typist working in the City of London on a five-day week, seven or eight hours per day, with luncheon vouchers worth some 15s. per week provided for her, can earn more than a physiotherapist who has done three years' training; yet physiotherapists often have to be on call at evenings and during weekends. I do not think that any political Party in this country can be particularly proud of this, but I hope that the present Government, who in their Manifesto said that they intended to put this right, will in practice do so. If they do they will earn the gratitude of the nation.
If I may now revert to the question of children's hospitals, there is a difference of opinion in the medical profession as to whether children as patients should become part of an adult general hospital or whether they should have their own hospitals. Personally, I am a great believer in children having their own hospitals where they are looked after by qualified staff. They have all the services at their disposal and they have their own friends to play with. The Platt Report on the welfare of children recommended this in paragraph 32, and I hope that the Government will pay heed to it.
The same applies to hospital visiting. I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, what rulings the Ministry of Health have now made, not only in regard to the visiting of children but also in regard to the visiting of adults. Several instances have been brought to my notice where patients in hospital have been refused visitors during the visiting hours for reasons which one can only describe as unsatisfactory. If the noble Lord so wishes, I will afterwards give him some instances. Of course, nobody denies that the matron or sister must have discretion on this, but there should also be consideration for the patient and for the visitors, many of whom travel long distances.
Perhaps the most tragic problem of all is that of the mental hospitals. I live in an area in which there is a colony of some six mental hospitals. I recently visited one, Horton Hospital, which I know the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, knows well, and I went into the geriatric ward for elderly ladies. They are crowded some forty or more to a ward. They are very well looked after, well-fed, and the staff could not be more devoted—let me make that perfectly clear—but this situation does crowd out the younger patients who also desperately need treatment.
To instance this, I will refer to one case which was recently mentioned in the Press. A young man was picked up by the police in the Paddington area, which is the catchment area for Horton Hospital. He had been to a betting shop and lost his earnings. He got drunk, he relieved himself in the road, and was picked up by the police. He then got violent and had to be forcibly put into an ambulance and taken to Horton Hospital, Epsom. This meant a journey of some eighteen miles. Extra guards were required to hold him down, and another accommodation problem for this particular hospital was created.
I should like to ask the Government whether they have any plans for housing such patients in the London area, for otherwise the staff shortage will become really dreadful. As it is, student nurses in most of these hospitals are almost entirely non-English; there are Spaniards, Ghanaians, Indians and other races. I make no complaint about how they work; most of them work very well. But there are social problems.

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Many of them will not mix; some of the Indians adopt the caste system. Unless we can get more British-born nurses and junior doctors, the problem will become far worse.
There is a great deal of ground that I have not covered, but time is getting on and there are many other speakers to follow me. However, I should like to say that we in this country owe a great debt of gratitude to those who staff our hospitals and those who doctor our patients. Many are working under tremendous strain. I do not know whether the noble Lord can give any figures as to how the group practice system for doctors has worked out during, say, the past five years, but unless more group practices can be set up, many doctors will fall by the wayside, because they just cannot carry on. The problem is, of course, more acute in some areas than in others, but it is soon going to become a very serious national problem. It is the same with nursing, too.
More and more accidents happen on the roads, and I should like again to stress what I have stressed in this House before: the desperate need for more accident units on the same basis as Dr. Hindle's unit at the Luton Hospital, which works marvellously. It seems very alarming that if, for example, an accident happens on the A.1, near Biggleswade, the patient has to be taken several miles to Bedford, although it may be a very serious case. May I ask the noble Lord a question which may not come under his Department, but which concerns accidents generally? I should like to ask whether teams of trained doctors and nurses could be set up on the motorways, particularly on foggy days, to meet these contingencies.
My Lords, I am grateful to have had the chance of initiating this debate. I should like to end by sending from all sides of this House a very sincere tribute to all those who administer our Hospital and Medical Services. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.23 p.m.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, with confidence I ask for the indulgence of this House—in fact, for a double indulgence, because, as has already been indicated, I am speaking from the Front Bench for
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the first time, as well as for the first time in this venerable House. I certainly did not anticipate, when I was first introduced some weeks ago, that I should have this double task which has been imposed upon me to-day. May I express to the noble Lord who has just sat down my warm appreciation of his kind references to all those whom he mentioned, including myself? It is true that I have, and always shall have, a very warm affection for a district which I represented in another place for many years. It is some consolation not only for the fact that I have now ceased the representation of that constituency, but also for other subsequent incidents, that the noble Lord has expressed himself to me in such a friendly fashion.
I may say that the particular subject which he has brought to our attention and consideration this afternoon is not entirely unfamiliar to my own experience. We all have a great interest, I am sure, in our National Health Service, but I also had the privilege of serving for some 21 years on more than one hospital in the County of Essex. It is true that one was a mental hospital, and I do not mind confessing that when I was first elected to the Essex County Council I felt somewhat humbled when, having applied to be placed on the education and other committees, they put me instead on what was then called the lunatic asylums committee—no doubt thinking that it was more appropriate for me. But in course of time I came to appreciate what a tremendous service the mental hospitals of this country are giving both to those who, unfortunately, have to dwell within them and, indeed, to their relatives. Although it is many years since I served on the Essex County Council Mental Hospitals Committee, I shall never forget that very great experience, the insight it gave me into human nature, and the realisation which came home to me that the boundary between a mental hospital and those outside is indeed a very frail one.
I must confess that I was a little perturbed that when the noble Lord spoke he did not refer to all the matters which, with great kindness, he had intimated he would raise in this debate. Some of those he has brought to our attention; one or two others he has omitted. Therefore, he will not mind if, telepathically, so

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to speak, I assume that there were other questions in his mind that he would have brought out if he had had more time, and I shall do my best to deal with them. On the other hand, may I say that the wide range he has covered is an indication of. his comprehensive interest. If I am a little breathless at the end of the time that I shall use this afternoon, it will be due not only, in a very small measure, to a slight cold that I possess, but also to my pursuit of many points in a very vast territory. May I, therefore, assure the noble Lord that if I omit from my brief survey many matters that he would have wished me to deal with my noble friend Lord Taylor will not only remedy my deficiencies, but also deal with these matters and with any other aspects of our debate which arise this afternoon.
One matter which was dealt with by the noble Lord was the question of visiting hours. There was a time, of course, when it was assumed, I am afraid, in certain quarters, that the visiting by friends and relatives of patients was a kind of necessary nuisance; and everything was done not only to contract the hours of visiting, but to make those who did go to visit their friends and relatives most uncomfortable so that they were almost glad to be removed. But that state of affairs has now, of course, changed very substantially.
Certainly there is a problem here, for all who have been engaged in hospital work, either professionally or administratively, know full well that when doctors go on their rounds in the wards they must have prior consideration; and if their rounds happen to conflict with visiting hours then the doctors' function is frustrated and the visitors are disturbed. Nevertheless, I repeat that a great deal of improvement has taken place. In a Ministry of Health memorandum of 1962, these words occur:
"Visiting should be regarded as an important contribution to the patient's recovery, and never as a concession or as an unwelcome interference with hospital routine."
But great changes took places well before 1962. My information is that while, for instance, of 200 acute hospitals, none allowed daily visitation in 1961, nearly all do now. That again shows the great advance that has taken place.
Experiments with unrestricted or very liberal visitation have been made, and are
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still constantly being made, though here again, of course, there is a great difficulty. Sometimes, unfortunately—perhaps unwittingly—visitors exploit the liberal time at their disposal, with the result that they tire out the patients. I would say, in passing, that it does not necessarily follow that all patients wish to see the visitors for an unlimited length of time. If patients are visited by particularly garrulous friends or relatives there is often a great burden, especially when the visitors themselves try to comfort the patient by going into almost morbid details about their own physical and other ailments. That point has to be borne in mind, and explains in some measure why some authorities have not been as eager as others to extend the hours of visitation to almost the whole day. But I repeat again that great changes and improvements have taken place.
It has been suggested by the Ministry—and I think this is carried out in some cases—that explanatory leaflets for the guidance of visitors should be issued. I know that this is done in certain hospitals which I myself have visited, and I know that, in the result, there is a much greater understanding between the administrative staff, on the one hand, and the visitors, on the other. Personally, I do not think there can be any complete or rigid rule about this. All we can hope for is that there will be this growing co-operation and understanding among visitors, patients and staff, so that there will be a maximum amount of time for the visitation to take place but, at the same time, it is kept within limits.
One matter that may interest your Lordships, if I may mention it, is that the Ministry of Health recently announced that, out of 853 hospitals with child patients, 560 permit parental visitations at all reasonable hours and 48 almost so—between, say, 10 o'clock in the morning and 6 o'clock in the afternoon—leaving only about 200 from which either there is No 1nformation or where there is some measure of restriction. Again speaking from experience, having visited children's wards and children's hospitals, I can say what a great boon this change is to many of the children, who, psychologically, are comforted by the presence of their parents or their friends and, in consequence, can often

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make a recovery more swiftly than would otherwise have been the case.
One point the noble Lord did not touch on, but which I thought he would mention, was the question of catering. This relieves me, obviously, of dealing very extensively with that particular matter, except to say, quite briefly, that it is encouraging to know that dietetics, kitchen equipment, and, indeed, the whole sphere of catering, have come to be of increasing significance and importance in the hospital world. We all realise now that faulty or deficient dieting, or the destruction of a good diet in the oven or in the pot, may mean that patients are relieved of one ailment only to have others imposed upon them. Therefore I am glad to report that in the new hospitals the most up-to-date kitchen equipment is being installed, and that in the older hospitals a great deal is being done to modernise the plant, although sometimes this presents very great difficulty. A building note, I see, has been issued from the Department to all hospitals giving suggestions as to how their kitchen equipment can be improved.
May I turn from that point to another which the noble Lord mentioned, the question of nursing accommodation, although he touched on it only briefly. Here, again, the Ministry, I know, are very conscious of both deficiencies, on the one hand, and progress, on the other. It is well for us, of course, to look at the various deficiencies: we all must do that. To be honest with ourselves, we should recognise them in many respects; but, on the other hand, let us also appreciate substantial progress. Nurses to-day dwell in accommodation far superior to that which I knew forty or fifty years ago, when I visited my wife who was then a trainee nurse at a certain suburban hospital.
A great advance has taken place, but with that advance has also come, in recent years at least, an appreciation that the old type of nurses' home, which has fulfilled a very useful purpose indeed, may nevertheless not be the best means of providing accommodation. One suggestion now is that we should visualise the possibility of providing flats, or even terraced houses, so that more and more they become de-institutionalised. It is also alleged that this would certainly be
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an economy. In fact, of course, this is a housing problem, and not merely a hospital problem, and is therefore involved in the general problem of housing. But, possibly, in due course, as our economy improves still further, we shall be able to turn our attention to this new and more modern method of meeting the need of accommodation for our nurses.
One other matter which was touched on briefly, but perhaps not to the extent that I thought it would be, is the question of the provision of maternity beds. Again on this matter I shall be brief. The Hospital Plan of 1961 envisaged an increase of about 6,500 maternity beds by 1975. But, of course, the birthrate has risen higher than was estimated—a reminder that statistical man often proposes, but, evidently, biological man, and woman, frequently disposes. Be that as it may, this, of course, has caused the whole question of the estimate of the future need to be revised rather drastically. Nevertheless, progress has been made, and by the end of 1964 670 new beds will have been provided, or a net addition of 450. The disparity between the two figures is accounted for by the fact that the balance represents the replacement of old beds which have been taken away. It is anticipated that in the current year there will be a net addition of 920 beds; so at the present rate of progress, it is still firmly anticipated that by the year 1975, when there will have been some 200, 000 extra confinements, we shall have sufficient maternity bed accommodation in our hospitals to meet this great need.
The noble Lord referred to the question of accidents. While I fully appreciate his point that, particularly in foggy weather, there should be staffs of trained nurses and doctors waiting for the accidents—rather morbidly apprehending what might happen—I would nevertheless suggest that already our medical and nursing staffs are very heavily occupied. And I hope the noble Lord does not suggest that they should just be waiting in little huts along the M.1, or some other road, for the so-called "inevitable" to happen.
This important subject was considered by a Sub-Committee of the Standing Medical Advisory Committee, under the chairmanship of Sir Harry Platt, and a Report was issued in September, 1962, and commended to hospital authorities in

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May. 1963. Among the recommendations—and there were many—was one that injured patients should be taken direct to accident and emergency units for immediate attention at any time in the 24 hours. That recommendation, no doubt, meets to some extent the point made by the noble Lord. But obviously, it would require a very great increase in the number of accident and emergency units.
Here again, it is one thing to have plans, to recognise a great need; it is quite another, of course, to implement them. That is why we shall still have to wait some time, I am afraid, before all these recommendations are properly fulfilled. But we are pressing on. Meanwhile, the less serious cases, of course, can continue to receive treatment in the smaller hospitals. I would add that the hospital authorities have themselves been prompted to consider this matter in the light of the Sub-Committee's Report. Some improvements have been achieved, but complete reorganisation of this particular service depends on the ability to provide new buildings and adequate staff.
I turn now to the question of the welfare of children in hospitals, to which reference has been made. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, referred, I think, at least by implication, to the Platt Report, published in 1958, and particularly to paragraphs 30 to 35. These paragraphs, I would remind noble Lords generally, deal with the nursing of children and adolescents in adult wards, the desirability of having children's wards in general hospitals rather than nursing all children in children's hospitals, and with improved designs for for children's wards. On this matter I rather disagree with the noble Lord, if he does not mind my saying so; I hope that we shall have fewer hospitals devoted entirely to children, although, of course, some will still be required. What I want to see is more wards in ordinary hospitals dealing with children and adolescents alone. The Report, however, was interesting, and before I press on I will remind your Lordships of one or two points in it.
The Report has been carefully considered by the Ministry and hospital authorities alike, and the Ministry have asked for and received information showing the current position and progress in
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implementing its recommendations. A third inquiry beyond the two already made is actually taking place this year. For your Lordships' information I may say that we find that in 1960 apart from the psychiatric and exclusively children's hospitals, less than 10 per cent. of the children under 12 years of age were accommodated in adult wards but 60 per cent. of those aged from 12 to 16 were in adult wards. This shows the great shortage of hospital accommodation for that higher age group. We can only hope that we shall press on and provide the appropriate accommodation for these adolescents of from 12 to 16 years of age.
The aim is, of course, to provide a comprehensive service for children in every centre and conurbation of from 100, 000 to 150, 000 population, and the Ministry have issued building notes on children's wards indicating what is desirable and what can be done internally to avoid accidents, and to provide cheerful furnishing and, of course, effective supervision. I thank the noble Lord for drawing attention to these matters, and if I cannot go into them more fully now it is because I must cover one or two other aspects of the whole matter before closing.
I will not touch on one question which was alluded to briefly, the question of the relationship between hospital planners and architects, except to say that I think the noble Lord has a strong point here. There is often a lack of proper liaison, proper understanding and appreciation of the two functions; but, as the noble Lord will appreciate, the major responsibility for building programmes rests with the Hospital Boards. The Ministry can advise and give guidance, but they should be hesitant about imposing their views. They must have confidence that the Hospital Boards appreciate the difficulties and needs and are doing their utmost to overcome them. But the Ministry recommend for each project that a team should carry out the scheme throughout, from the individual assessment of needs and outlining of functions to the approval of the sketch plans, the cost limits and the final working drawings, and where outside firms are employed there should be the same provision of a team so that the teams can work together. Only in this way can the difficulty to which the noble Lord has

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referred be properly met. Again, one could say much more on this matter, but time slips by.
My Lords, I will refer to just one or two other small points. I refer again to mental hospitals and the undoubted truth that there are a large number of geriatrics, elderly people, in our mental hospitals who are given great attention and whose lives are thereby being extended. It is sometimes suggested that they may be preventing younger patients from receiving the appropriate treatment. I should be glad, and the Minister would be glad, to secure actual information about this from the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, or from any other noble Lord in the House, because we must confess that, broadly speaking, we have not received much evidence to substantiate his charge. No one here would wish geriatrics to be treated worse than they are being treated now. They are old people, often very confused; but, after all, they are fellow human beings, and once we start neglecting attention to the aged because they are aged, or because they are apparently socially useless, one does not know how far we shall go down the slippery slope until we begin to treat all human life according to its economic value. No one wishes to do that. We should aim to provide increasingly for the younger people, but I repeat that so far as my information goes there has been no serious indication that any young people have lacked treatment because of the devoted service being given to the geriatrics.
May I say again that my knowledge of mental work generally makes me increasingly impressed and inspired by the extraordinary devotion given by nurses to the geriatrics and other categories of acute mentally disordered persons. It is a labour of love, and I am positive that those who dedicate themselves to this service, with patience and sometimes in most distressing conditions, do so not for pecuniary reward, though that is necessary, but out of love of their brethren. In regard to hospital accommodation for male nurses, our information is that apparently there is no great need of this, and no overall shortage, and that indeed in some parts of the country where there may have been some local difficulties these have been overcome because there has been a lessened demand
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for accommodation for female nurses. The result is that the accommodation they have vacated has been made available, with proper safeguards, to the male nurses.
My Lords, the last point I wish to refer to before I sit down and allow other noble Lords to contribute to this valuable debate is on the whole question of physiotherapists. Their shortage will be dealt with by my noble friend Lord Taylor later on. I appreciate what has been said on that matter, and indeed I remember putting Questions on it in another place to obtain information some months ago. Having said that, may I again seek the foregiveness of the House for any deficiencies in exposition on my part, and thank noble Lords for their kind indulgence, while I nevertheless trust that what I have said has contributed to a greater knowledge of this important subject.

HOUSING FOR LONDONERS
3.47 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON): My Lords, may I be allowed to intervene for a moment, to congratulate my noble friend on the speech that we have just heard and to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government has just made in another place about housing for Londoners. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to use his words. They are as follows:
"In co-operation with the local authorities I am making every effort to stimulate house building within the conurbation. But there are limits to the extent that London can be built up, and there can be no doubt that the needs of the existing population call for a new programme of building in new and expanded towns in order to end the housing shortage, replace houses lost through slum clearance and other redevelopment, and keep pace with natural increase.
"A critical fact is that the output of houses in the present New Towns is running down as they near completion. Immediate decisions are necessary if we are to avoid a disastrous gap in housing for Londoners.

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"To prevent this the Government propose, as an interim measure, to go ahead with a New Town in North Buckinghamshire and with the expansion of Ipswich, Peterborough and Northampton. I will shortly be discussing with local authorities concerned the measures needed to implement these proposals, including the surveys that will be needed to determine the precise siting of the development. In particular, I shall be considering with them the desirability of using the machinery of the New Towns Act for these schemes. I am also discussing with the Greater London Council the possibility of an expansion of some of their existing overspill schemes.
"There remains the question of land for people who move themselves out of London into the Home Counties. Some of these will move well away, but many will want, and will need, to live within reach of London, and they must have the chance to do so. Moreover, land must be made available for the new households of the population already living in the 40-mile ring. My Department will shortly be discussing with the individual local planning authorities where, in the outer metropolitan region, this additional land can best be provided, leaving aside, for the time being, the question of any provision for migration into the South East.
"These measures are urgently needed to ensure a continued housing programme for people who have to move out of London. In order to avoid prejudicing the South-East review, especially in relation to migration from other parts of the country, the Government's aim will be to secure that an even greater proportion of houses provided will go to Londoners than in the existing New Towns; also that the employment provided will be in activities that cannot be located further away from London, and not, for example, in new industrial growth that could take place elsewhere in Great Britain."
3.50 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I would thank the Parliamentary Secretary for Land and Natural Resources for such information as he has given in this Statement. However, this information is wrap-
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ped up in a good deal of verbiage, the purport of which is well known to all your Lordships. The first two paragraphs are merely a recapitulation of what was said on many occasions by the noble Lord's predecessor—in other words, myself—during the last Conservative Government.
We come to some information in the third paragraph, where we are told that the Government propose to go ahead with the New Town in North Buckinghamshire and with the expansion of Ipswich, Peterborough and Northampton, and it adds that consultations are going on with the local authorities to determine the siting of the development. Presumably this refers to all four developments mentioned, particularly as in the subsequent sentence reference is made to the use of the machinery of the New Towns Act for these schemes, a proposal which, of course, was put forward by my right honourable friend Sir Keith Joseph when he was Minister of Housing.
There are one or two questions about these schemes that I would ask. I hope the noble Lord will be able to give answers straight away. First of all, does this New Town in North Buckinghamshire refer to the proposal in The South East Study for the expansion of Bletchley, or to a scheme which has been adumbrated in the County Council and in the Press about another town in North Buckinghamshire with a monorail service? I believe that there may be some confusion, and perhaps the noble Lord could tell us which scheme is contemplated in the Statement.
This paragraph immediately follows on the statement that the output of houses in the present New Towns is running down as they near completion and therefore we must do something to close the gap in housing for Londoners. It was because of that that Sir Keith Joseph suggested that it would be desirable to go ahead with the development of Stevenage. The expansion of Ipswich, Peterborough and Northampton which is put forward is not a proper substitute, because Stevenage could go ahead much more quickly, with the staff already there for planning and building, whereas in the other towns a special organisation will have to be set up before they can start making progress. So my

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second question is: what is happening about Stevenage? I am aware that there is a lot of controversy and that many noble Lords on my side of the House disagree on this, but that is not the point at the moment. What has happened about the public inquiry which was going to take place at Stevenage? Is that postponed indefinitely? Is any decision to be expected on that matter?
Turning to the expansion of Ipswich, Peterborough and Northampton, which was recommended in The South East Study, I would point out to the noble Lord that these expansions, including the expansion of Bletchley, would, according to the estimates of The South East Study, amount to an increase of 235, 000 houses in a phased development over the next 20 years. That would mean, in ten years, about 125, 000 new houses. But we already know from the White Paper, London: Housing, Employment and Land, which the previous Government produced in February, 1963, that London requires at least half a million new houses in the next ten years. Here are proposals for producing only 120, 000 of that half million, of which half may be in London. This means that there will be still a shortfall of 130, 000 houses over the next ten years for Londoners alone, not to mention the other 1½ million extra population expected in the South-Eeast from natural increase, excluding any migration into the area. It is plain that a great deal more has to be done and many decisions taken: and the sooner the better.
A slight reference is made to the problem in the penultimate paragraph, where it says that land must be made available for the new households of the population already living in the 40-mile ring. That is a limited area and a limited population, but at least it refers to people already living outside London. The great problem remains—what is going to be done about the suggestions (because it was not a plan, but suggestions for discussion) in The South East Study? The rest of this paragraph says that the noble Lord's Department is discussing the matter with the planning authorities.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, may I break in for a moment? It is customary to try to let noble Lords on the Opposition side
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have a copy of a Statement a short while before it is made, but I hope that the noble Lord will not take undue advantage of that. It is not usual to proceed along the lines he is adopting at present.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am sorry if it is too long. I wanted to put these questions because I felt that the noble Lord would be in a position to answer. I hope he will be able to give us some more information about the further progress of this Study and about what his right honourable friend proposes to do.
3.58 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, with great respect, I think that the noble Lord has slightly misunderstood the character of the Statement I have just been making. I purposely emphasised the words, "as an interim measure", because this is an interim measure intended to get these developments started as soon as possible. I am sorry that the noble Lord found parts of this Statement verbose. It seems to me to have a real content in every case.
I would say to the noble Lord, on the need for an interim measure, that a great deal of the difficulty about the New Towns and the expansions of existing towns arises from the fact that during six years the Conservative Government did not build any New Towns. It is true that more lately they began to do so but, as I think the Statement indicates, what has already been started has proved insufficient. As to the extent of the insufficiency, the noble Lord rightly points out that the proposed developments in themselves will not provide all that is needed. I entirely agree. The figures he gave indicated that they would provide roughly one-quarter of the requirements. I think that the figure of one-third might be a little more accurate, but housing statistics are extremely difficult to use and one has to be careful about what exactly one is describing in any given set of figures. I noticed his reference to the existing population without migrants. That is what I, too, have in mind and what is intended particularly by these developments.
To turn to the other points raised by the noble Lord, the first was whether the development described as to be in North Buckinghamshire was at Bletchley or at some other town in that county

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with monorail connections. To this I would simply say that, if he takes the very next sentence after the reference to North Buckinghamshire, he will see that my right honourable friend will shortly be discussing with the local authorities concerned the measures needed to implement these proposals, including the service that will be needed to determine the precise siting of the development. That is the present position, and pending those discussions I am afraid I cannot—nor could my right honourable friend if he were here—further answer the noble Lord's question on that point.
I would again call the attention of noble Lords to the references in this Statement to the South-East Study. This is not intended in any way to prejudice consideration of the South-East Study. Indeed, my right honourable friend expresses himself as leaving aside for the time being the question of any provision for migration into the South-East. That was one of the principal subjects with which the South-East Study was concerned, and the review of the Study could hardly be made except in relation to both that question as well as to the natural growth of population.
If I may say so, this is an interim measure. This is a Statement about a particular and rather urgent matter, and the urgency of it lies not in the fact that these New Towns and other developments have to be put up quickly, but in the fact that they must be begun soon. It takes time to get New Towns, and so on, started. Therefore, the Statement does not connect up with any proposals about Stevenage or any other place, on which I am well aware that there is controversy; and this is rather apart from the real subject matter of this Statement.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the explanation and answers that he has given to the questions put by my noble friend on this important Statement. It may be that we shall want to discuss this later in the course of a debate, and I should like to reserve consideration of it. There are, however, two questions that I wish to put to the noble Lord for further elucidation of the Statement. At the end of it the noble Lord said that there remained the question of land for people who moved out of London into the Home Counties, and
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also the provision of land for the households of the population already living in the 40-mile ring. Am I right in thinking that this means that further land in the Green Belt is going to be used for housing? I will not ask the noble Lord to say, if that is so, how much is going to be allocated for housing. I think that is what it means, and I should be glad to know whether the noble Lord confirms it.
The second point I wish to mention is this. The noble Lord knows this area around Northampton perhaps as well as I do. I should hope that some consideration might be given to not confining all this development to Northampton, but to some taking place at Kettering and Wellingborough, and perhaps, last but not least, the town of Welwyn.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, on the first point, I made a fairly full statement about the Green Belt in a debate on an Unstarred Question that we had the other day, and I have really nothing to add to that. But I should like to repeat what I then said, that that particular development was not intended to be, and in my view was not, an intrusion in any way on the principle of the Green Belt. I would put it otherwise: that what is proposed here is really the only way of preventing the constant "nibbling" at the Green Belt which went on under the last Government—"nibbling" in small pieces, but small pieces amounting, on the whole, to quite considerable incursions. I hope the noble and learned Viscount will not think that I am being too contentious or desiring to discuss something that is hardly before us now, but I can put it even more shortly. This is not intended in any way to represent any further incursion into the Green Belt or to foreshadow any further incursion into the Green Belt. It is wholly consistent with what was said at more length in the debate to which I have referred.
On the second and, if I may put it this way, very homely question—homely both to the noble and learned Viscount and, until recently, to myself and my noble friends here—I would only say that I will take care that his views are conveyed, and adequately conveyed, to my right honourable friend. The noble

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and learned Viscount knows that part of the world very well indeed, and has done so over many years, and I am sure his opinions about it will be valued and appreciated. The matter has not yet been settled, for the reasons that I have just given.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, in order to increase accommodation in London, there is any intention of increasing density by allowing buildings to be built higher in appropriate places, which would bring more people to live centrally in London rather than to go further afield?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, with great respect, we were having an extremely interesting debate just before the Statement was made, and this question really does go a long way beyond the subject matter of this particular Statement. I entirely see the noble Lord's point, and I have often felt it myself. It is a matter for argument one way or the other, but perhaps not for argument now.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, the noble Lord said in this important Statement that development of the proposed town in North Buckinghamshire was very urgent; that this was an interim plan, and the three towns he mentioned were referred to in the South-East Study. The town in North Buckinghamshire was proposed to be at Bletchley, but now further studies are going on. Can the noble Lord say how long will it be before some arrangement can be come to with the Buckinghamshire County Council as to where this proposed New Town will go. There is, as the noble Lord said, a lot of preliminary work to be done, and we want to get started. I should like to know when it will be decided where the New Town is going to be.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I see the noble Lord's point; but one really cannot foretell the length of time that discussions with local authorities, which are clearly required in this case, will take. I am certain that my right honourable friend will move with diligence, and I hope that the local authorities will do the same.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, the noble Lord said that his right honourable friend would be having discussions with the appropriate authorities concerning the siting of this development. I understand that there have been proposals for a New Town—it was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Hastings—which would have 36 miles of monorail. May I ask the noble Lord whether in effect the suggestion of having a monorail, which costs in the region of £1 million a mile, will be considered at the same time?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I am sure that every relevant consideration will be taken into account, including monorails. But this is a Statement of an interim measure and of pending consultations and surveys that will have to be considered at a later stage.

ESTABLISHMENT OF A SPORTS COUNCIL
4.9 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY (LORD SNOW): My Lords, I regret having to make a further interruption in this valuable and interesting debate, but I have to make a Statement similar to that which has just been made by my honourable friend the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Department of Education and Science, Mr. Denis Howell, about the establishment of a Sports Council.
The Government have decided to establish a Sports Council, to advise them on matters relating to the development of amateur sport and physical recreation services and to foster co-operation among the statutory authorities and voluntary organisations. It is the intention that, in his capacity as the Minister with a responsibility for sport, my honourable friend should be the Chairman of the Council.
The Prime Minister has issued invitations to the following to become members of the Council and there is every reason to believe that they will indicate their willingness to serve:

Lady Burton of Coventry,

Kathleen Holt,

David Bacon,

Dr. Roger Bannister,

Ian Black,

Sir Learie Constantine,

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John Disley,

Bernard Donoughue,

Michael Dower,

George Edwards,

Dr. Stewart Mackintosh,

David Munrow,

Lord Porchester,

Clive Rowlands,

Dan Smith,

Sir John Lang, Principal Adviser on Sport, who will be Deputy Chairman.
The Director of the Council will be Mr. Walter Winterbottom, and my honourable friend is grateful to the Central Council of Physical Recreation for releasing him for this important new post.
Particular subjects which it is intended that the Council should advise on are:
Standards of provision of sports facilities for the community.
Collation of information about the position in other countries.
Surveys of resources and regional planning.
Co-ordination of the use of community resources.
Research.
Development of training and coaching.
Likely capital expenditure.
Participation in sporting events overseas by British amateur teams.
Priorities in sports development.
The Government expect that all bodies who have responsibility for sport and physical recreation and receive grant aid from official sources will collaborate with the Council.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Statement made in another place on the establishment of a Sports Council. We are very anxious, as noble Lords opposite are, to see every possible development in sports and sports facilities, and we shall watch with great interest to see how this Council develops and what practical contribution it makes to the development of sport.
May I ask the noble Lord three fairly simple questions? I think it is quite clear from the statement that this Council is purely advisory. Would he therefore confirm that it has no executive powers; it has no money to allocate to sport; and that the establishment of this Council does not mean that any more money is available for sport. In the second place,
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the particular subjects on which it has to advise will entail a certain amount of background research: what staff will this Council have? Will it have its own staff, or will it depend on the Civil Service staff? In the third place, could I ask him whether the reports of this Council will be published?
LORD SNOW: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for those kind words. If, as a result of this activity, we produce anyone as good at games as he is, we shall have done pretty well. The answer to the first question is, Yes. This Council is an advisory council. On the other hand, the noble Lord will have noticed that my honourable friend is acting as Chairman, and when a Minister acts as Chairman you can usually make an advisory council do something more than give advice. At least you can see that some of that advice is acted upon. The answer to the second question is that there will be a secretariat—small, but, we hope, efficient. The answer to the third question is that I cannot say positively. The problem has not been raised, but I should guess that the answer is again, Yes.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I just welcome from these Benches the Statement the Minister has made, and say how pleased we are that this is going ahead. There are, of course, a great many of these organisations—almost a proliferation—and it is rather a relief to see that there is going to be some coordinating body, and that on that body we have the honour of two Members of your Lordships' House serving. I hope that this Committee may possibly be enlarged by co-operation, and if there are any further Members from your Lordships' House we shall always be glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and the noble Marquess, Lord Exeter, taking their part in it. I am glad that the Minister has said that it will be more than a purely advisory body, and that it may be able to influence the interests of sport through the normal "corridors of power".
LORD COLWYN: My Lords, I am surprised that Sir Stanley Matthews, who was given a knighthood as being one of the greatest footballers in this country, is not on that list.

THE HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL SERVICES
4.16 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, the time has now come to continue our debate on the Hospital Service. Before I make a few remarks on it, I should like to say how pleased I am to be the first speaker after the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, and to say how much I enjoyed what he said this afternoon. By virtue of the distinguished office he now holds, we shall have the pleasure of listening to him more often than as one of the Back Benchers. I am sure that what he says will be welcome and very interesting indeed.
It gives me great pleasure to take part in this debate, but I do not want to cover the rather wide field which the noble Lord who moved this Motion covered. I wish to confine myself to the affairs of some of the professions supplementary to medicine which the noble Lord mentions in his Motion. I am particularly interested in the fortunes of these professions for two reasons: first, because over the past twelve or fifteen years I have been involved in the governing bodies, as one might say, of the Institute of Almoners, the Association of Occupational Therapists, and the Society of Chiropodists. Therefore, I can speak from a certain amount of knowledge of the way in which those bodies run.
In the second place, I should like to talk as one who may call himself a consumer of what goods these people produce, because I worked for many years in close collaboration with their members at the hospital to whose staff I belong. I have found it would not be possible to do the work I do unless I had their enthusiastic and loyal collaboration and support. I am sure that is the general feeling of the medical profession about what are now called the professions supplementary to medicine. It is something I have said to your Lordships on more than one occasion before, and I am pleased to have this opportunity once more of mentioning the debt which my profession owes to the devoted work of those who practise in these professions.
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The people I want to talk about first are occupational therapists, because I have not been concerned with the Institute of Almoners for a long time, so I am rather out of touch with their present work. One of the troubles is that even at the present time there is a grave shortage of occupational therapists in the country. The shortage is something in the neighbourhood of 24 per cent., which is quite large, and one of the points I should like to put to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, who is to reply, is this: do the Government really know the total number of occupational therapists required at the present time to bring the places where they work fully up to establishment, particularly bearing in mind the big new development which has occurred with the passing of the Mental Health Act, 1959?
The numbers in the profession have gone up by what would appear to be quite a big figure—about 600—between 1956 and 1964, but I am told on all sides that, although that increase has been substantial, it is nowhere near enough to cover the posts where they are wanted. I could think of all sorts of reasons for this, and one which I should like to bring forward and which I know has been brought forward before is that the prospects and salaries which are offered to these girls—for the bulk of people who take up this work are girls—are poor compared with those offered to girls in other branches of the public service, not to mention the enormous advantages which can be offered to those in commerce and industry.
For example—and I hope your Lordships will not mind my quoting one example—the Civil Service have 50, 000 executive officers. They come into the Service when they leave school at the age of 18, which is just at the time the girl beginning occupational therapy has to start her training, and, instead of being paid, she has to pay out for the next three years. Although she may get a grant or a scholarship from somewhere, she does not get paid. Then one finds that when the executive officer reaches his or her highest grade, the salary is, I think I am right in saying. £1, 480 a year, whereas the highest grade in occupational therapy, provided the

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person does not get promotion to a supervisory post in a really big department, carries a salary of £829 a year. Even if he or she does get promoted to supervisor, the salary does not rise above £1, 300. That is not a very great encouragement to girls to take up a profession which is going to be hard work, because it is extremely hard, where the training takes quite a long time, and where they realise more and more that the work they are doing is something of great importance to people who are sick either mentally or physically.
My Lords, I will not say any more for the time being about occupational therapy, and I should like to turn to the chiropodist, where we find the same sort of story. There is a. considerable shortage of these valuable people. The number in training is in the neighbourhood of 300, and I am pleased to say that of that number 100 passed and qualified last year. One thing I was very pleased to see in The Times yesterday, I think, was that the L.C.C. propose to establish a new training school somewhere in London—I cannot remember exactly where. The only real, official recognition that the chiropodist has is that the local health authorities can (not "shall") set up schemes under which certain persons in priority classes may be provided with treatment. As far as I know, most of the 148 major local authorities in England and Wales provide these schemes. The total number, I think, is 146.
But what it comes down to, when we look at the number of vacancies for full-time chiropodists, is that whereas 188 people are occupying full-time posts, 90 posts are vacant in the establishment. If the service were to be complete, covering all the local authorities, there would be a necessity, I think, for a further 206, which seems really staggering, but I have gone into the figures very carefully and as far as I can see I have not made a mistake. So it means that here, too, more people are wanted than we have at the present time. When one comes to people working part-time, the position is not nearly as bad; the number of vacancies is quite small and the number of future requirements does not really cause trouble.
When the local health authorities are setting up their clinics they give priority,
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quite properly, to certain classes of persons: to the old, the physically handicapped, and the expectant mothers. Nobody would object to that. But it means that if you are not in one of those categories and you urgently require chiropody, you then have to go to a chiropodist in private practice and pay for the treatment yourself. Supposing one goes to a hospital, the treatment is restricted to the patients referred to the chiropodist by the consultant or doctor in charge.
Another rather serious matter in the chiropody world is that quite a number of old people's clubs employ chiropodists to treat their members. As far as I can make out, although a certain number of clubs employ properly qualified chiropodists, the chiropodists do not need to be properly qualified. By that, I mean that they do not come under the National Health Service (Medical Auxiliary) Regulations for 1954, nor are they qualified by virtue of State registration in 1962.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COMMONWEALTH AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD TAYLOR): My, Lords, I think there is a practical point here. It is the absolute shortage in the number of chiropodists. If they did not employ these chiropodists who are qualified in the old way, there would be no chiropodists at all for the old people's clubs.
LORD AMULREE: There I think the noble Lord has made a very good point, which I accept; but it is part of my plea that there should be encouragement to get more chiropodists, and that it should be possible for the better qualified chiropodists to go to some of these old people's clubs, istead of the less qualified going there. It is the shortage of chiropodists that is causing the trouble. I think it is particularly dangerous with these clubs, because although some of these chiropodists do their work extremely well, there may be some who do not. When you are old, your feet are particularly liable to damage if they are carelessly treated, and it seems rather bad luck that old people, whose feet are particularly susceptible to danger, should be exposed in this way.
Another thing I should like to ask the noble Lord is whether he can tell

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us the number of chiropodists employed in the school health service because it seems to me to be a point where what is wanted is, not a great number but quite a regular number of chiropodists. Because if chiropodial advice is not available for the young people it tends to lead to a lot of foot trouble which will probably cause more difficulty when the children grow up and will cost a great deal more to be put right than it does when they are young.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, with very great respect, the noble Lord is asking us to work out a lot of very complicated figures. He was complaining a little while ago about the number of officers employed in the Civil Service.
LORD AMULREE: I was not complaining of the numbers; I was complaining about the amounts they were paid, compared with occupational therapists, which is quite a different story. I think that if you are going to get down to the sort of numbers needed, you must do a certain amount of sums. You cannot say: "Let there be occupational therapists and chiropodists", as in the first Book of Genesis; you have to know what numbers there are going to be. That is why I put these questions, not for answer now, but because I think the figures should be worked out rather more carefully.
What do I think should be done about the shortage of chiropodists? There is something which can be done, because a large number of chiropodists, rightly or wrongly, do go into private practice. That being so, would it not be possible for the local authorities, or the hospital authorities, to employ them, or to send people to them, under the control of the executive council, or to do something like that? I am sure there is some way by which some of these people could be brought in to work for the public good, even though they were in private practice. After all quite a number of doctors engage in some private practice and do quite a lot of work in the National Health Service.
There is one further point, dealing with the professions supplementary to medicine. I have never been entirely happy about the employment of the Whitley machinery for dealing with their pay claims and disputes in general. So far
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as I can make out, the Whitley Committee first met in 1916 or 1917, and one of their terms of reference was:
"To make and consider suggestions for securing a permanent improvement in relations between employer and employed."
I know that the Whitley Councils did an enormous amount of good in the industrial field when they were set up, but I wonder whether that applies also to the relationship between, for example, occupational therapists, now that they are a professional body—and the other professional bodies, too—and the Ministry of Health.
Then again, I think the presence of the Treasury in the background rather vitiates the possibility of free negotiations between the Ministry and the occupational therapists, or whatever branch of the profession it may be: because one knows quite well that the Ministry cannot come to a conclusion without the agreement of the Treasury, whereas an employer in industry certainly could. One wonders whether something of that sort, some change in that machinery, might encourage more people to join these professions; and whether, at the same time, now that they have become professions, there could not be some body to review their terms of service and salaries, as is being done in the case of the medical profession at the present time. That, I think, might do a certain amount to bring more people in.
I should like to say one thing about the work of these professions. One must begin to think in terms of preventive rather than curative medicine. In the past, there has been far too much attention focused on the hospital, far too much attention on sickness and trying to cure, rather than to prevent. I believe that a lot of good could be done by bringing the various branches of these professions much closer together. I am pleased to see that it is occurring between the physiotherapists and the occupational therapists. They are finding that their work does dovetail together, and one may look forward to far more of this in the future.
Another thing I should like to see is more work done on bringing out goods, what might be called a production line, rather than making goods to be sold at the sale of work at the hospital involved. At the Royal Hospital and Home for

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Incurables, at Putney, we do a certain amount of work for various firms. They take the work of the patients, who are paid normal wages; for the work. There are quite a number of workshops for old people which do it, and I mention Finsbury as one which has expanded.
Finally, there is one point which might encourage people to join these professions. I remember that when the war ended, or was about to end, I was involved in the making of a film, to be shown to the girls in the various Services, showing what the work was like in these various professions. It was quite a good little film, although I say it who should not. So far as I know, it had some effect in drawing the attention of the girls in the Services to these jobs. One wonders whether something of that nature could be done in the schools, and other similar places, to give the people there some idea of the work to be done.
4.35 p.m.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE: My Lords, may I ask your indulgence for my first venture in intervening in your Lordships' debates? And, first, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for the kind words he spoke about those who are asking for your Lordships' indulgence and in particular for what he said about a Member of another place who is to-day sitting on the steps of the Throne and about myself.
The subject being debated this afternoon is one that I have had cause to think about, for since 1954 I have had the honour of serving on the North-West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board, a Board of which two noble Lords, Lord Cottesloe and Lord Moynihan, have been, or are, chairmen. In 1960 I was appointed chairman of one of its hospital management committees. That appointment was the subject of some exchanges in another place. Indeed, a noble Lady opposite, who I am sorry to see is not at the moment in her place, was perceptive enough to remark, when she was in that other place, that it was a case of creating "jobs for the girls". How right she was I have had reason to discover. Being chairman of a hospital management committee is some job. That is why I am so glad the Minister of Health to-day is someone with whom I have worked on a Regional Hospital
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Board, someone who has learned about hospitals the practical way and can appreciate the feelings and frustrations of those in the field.
The Motion before us is:
"To call attention to the Hospital and Medical Services, with particular reference to the shortage of physiotherapists and other ancillary grades."
If debated exhaustively, this Motion could keep your Lordships here for days, because there are so many of these grades. Thirty are listed on the statistical return, SH 5, which is used to collect data about the numbers of professional and technical staffs supplementary to medicine in post in each hospital. It may be of some relief to your Lordships to know that I am not proposing to talk about all thirty. After glancing at the picture as a whole, I should like to turn to three or four of the professions supplementary to medicine which are causing most anxiety to those of us who are trying to administer the Hospital Service satisfactorily.
In November, 1962, the Welsh Hospital Board appointed Miss Anne Crichton, a senior lecturer at the University of Cardiff, to conduct research into the effect of the Hospital Plan on hospital staff in Wales. In 1963 the first of a series of reports by Miss Crichton and her research assistant, Miss Marion Crawford, appeared under the interrogative title Disappointed Expectations? It deals with professional and technical staff in the Hospital Service in Wales. The title which I assumed upon introduction to your Lordships' House may have created in some a feeling of despair over its potential pronunciation. But I think your Lordships will agree that that and my Welsh parentage do give me some claim to speak of Wales and Welsh affairs, though that is not my sole reason for referring to this Welsh report this afternoon. The report is revealing and interesting. It deserves attention outside, as well as inside, the Principality. Although some of the features discussed are peculiar to Wales, many are likely to be similar elsewhere.
The report poses a number of questions, to many of which the answers are as yet unknown. Is the demand for laboratory staff likely to grow steadily? Will the demand for radiography remain stationary? With the growing emphasis on home care, might not some of the

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therapists be better employed in the community than in hospitals? Could some of the simpler routine be done by less highly trained staff? To my mind, these and many other questions should be pursued, and some of the answers found, before all the new district hospitals are built and the problem of staffing them has become a burning issue.
There are also the questions implicit in the task of recruitment. With the acknowledged wastage of women from the National Health Service to the fuller and even more testing life of matrimony, has enough thought been given to the relative numbers of each sex who should be recruited and trained? Would more men come forward if higher salaries were offered? And, speaking of salaries, are the present ones, and the existing conditions of work, attractive enough to prevent a large loss to industry of trained staff in some of the services? These are some of the questions that spring to mind.
In their contacts and interviews, and as a result of the answers they obtained to questionnaires which they circulated, the authors of this report became aware of what they described as
"a sad state of low morale and a waste of efficiency which the new district hospitals must endeavour to avoid".
We hear a great deal to-day about team work in the Hospital and Medical Services. The conception is grand but in far too many cases only an undersized baby is delivered. Many of the ancillary staff feel that their function is not properly understood by the medical and nursing and administrative staff with whom they should be working. They sometimes feel that these others expect them to play a part for which they were not trained and from which they can see no distinctive benefit to the patient.
Dietitians, for example, have to produce five "O" levels, in which English, chemistry and mathematics are essential, before training can start; and they have to train for four years or more. But many of them feel that when they take up a hospital post the special knowledge and qualifications they have obtained are not always used as effectively as they might be. In the recruitment and retention of dietitians salary plays an important part, and it is not enough to com-
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pare their salaries with those of other medical ancillaries: they should be compared with what dieticians can command elsewhere. At present there is, in fact, an overall shortage of them. Dietitians in hospital are not as well paid as dietitians who teach in colleges or take jobs in the catering industry; so the Hospital Service tends to lose them.
Two other fields of acute shortage are radiographers and physiotherapists. Why do relatively few girls take up radiography as a career? The main factor seems to be the lack of publicity at school. This branch of medical service appears to be ignored by many of the careers mistresses. Where the profession has been given direct publicity at school, recruitment has increased.
Then, the educational requirements for a radiographer, particularly the high standard they must attain at school in physics and mathematics, mean that many of the girls who are good enough to attain these standards opt to go to a university, rather than train at a radiography centre. So the radiography profession is always liable to be short of trainees. In my own group of hospitals the staffing position fluctuates seasonally. We have a full complement when radiographers leave their training schools and colleges in mid-summer. Then, as the year progresses, there is the natural wastage due to marriage, having children, or moving away from the district. The lowest level of establishment is normally between Easter and August. Yet the work of the hospitals must go on.
Another difficulty is that there is an almost complete lack of accommodation for radiography students in most hospitals, and the students' allowance of £265 a year makes it difficult for a girl to pay for food, accommodation, fares, books and uniform unless she can live at home. These are the difficulties in recruitment. What about the circumstances which lead to a girl's giving up radiography after qualifying?
As in so many other professions marriage causes the greatest wastage. There is also the fear of the effects of radiation during early pregnancy—and this despite the precautions that are taken and the authoritative reassurance that is given. Some hospitals, too, make use of a shift system; and such hours as from one o'clock to eight o'clock make for

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difficulty in running a home. Other reasons for wastage may be that a radiographer "on call" may be alone with great responsibility; but the pay for "on call" duty is the same for senior as for junior radiographers. There is no doubt that pay is a great cause of discontent, and I cannot help thinking that some of this discontent has been justified. Although the basic salary for a junior radiographer seems to be satisfactory—it is £623 at the age of 21—the maximum salary for that grade, the basic grade, is only £829. These pay scales also apply to men. The prospect of raising a family on this kind of pay makes the profession unattractive for male radiographers. Those who do qualify usually transfer fairly rapidly into industry.
Then, to turn to physiotherapists, in common with other professions supplementary to medicine—I am trying to give the correct term to the ancillary services described in the Motion this afternoon—their numbers have not expanded as they should to meet the rapidly increasing demands which modern treatments in surgery and medicine make on their services. Physiotherapy can play a vital part in speeding up rehabilitation after serious illness or operation, as well as in the saving of life in the current developments in such fields as neurosurgery. To meet this need a steadily expanding profession is required, but in fact the profession has for years practically stagnated so far as its numerical strength is concerned.
I believe that has been due primarily to the low rates of pay and to the inadequate career structure offered. Five "O" level passes is the minimum educational standard demanded, and the training then lasts for three years. But the maximum salary that a basic grade physiotherapist can attain is only £829 a year. Compare that with the maximum salary of £960 for a clerical officer in the Civil Service who entered at 16 with no post-school training at all. Even the higher grade of senior physiotherapist has a maximum salary of only £979—hardly more than a clerical officer. One is inclined to ask: way train? Yet everybody says that our country needs more trained men and women. The Hospital Service most certainly does.
If we accept that there is difficulty in recruitment to these professions, and that it is unlikely to come right in the short
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term, we must ask ourselves whether those we have are deployed to the best advantage, and whether their trained skills are used to the maximum. The first point is in part dependent on the personal preferences of the people concerned. But there may be a need for financial inducements to make good particular shortages, in much the same way as special inducements are offered in under-doctored areas. Whether their trained skills are used to the maximum is hard to assess. The work they do is determined by the demands and requirements of the leader of their team, the consultant. I wonder whether he always sufficiently treats their skill as a scarce commodity.
I know of no published measurement of the numbers of trained staff in each of these many ancillary services who are reasonably required per hundred beds, so that a hospital could be helped in determining whether it ought to give preference to a radiographer, a physiotherapist or a laboratory technician when there is sufficient money for only one of these grades. The conditions in which they work, the equipment they have, the subordinate help available to them are all determined by the funds the hospitals have, and there is no rational and objective assessment. The only figures published are limited costing, which are subject to so much qualification, approximation and "guess estimation" as to be virtually valueless for this purpose.
The capital needs of hospitals are well known. Great enthusiasm all over the country is devoted to the planning of new hospitals and new departments. It is the deferment of plans because of shortage of funds and rising costs that tends to engender disillusionment and a feeling that one's work is no more than "paper planning". Along with progress in hospital building and reconstruction, it is, in my view, absolutely essential that funds for maintenance, minor works, and current expenditure are increased so as to keep older hospitals up to date and viable. Hospital management committees have found that when financial pressure is greatest the only practicable way of restricting expenditure is to cut back on maintenance and the purchase of equipment. This has happened so constantly that deterioration of buildings has become marked.
My own particular nightmares are outbreaks of dry rot—the reason for which,

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I am always informed, is that there have been insufficient moneys made available for adequate maintenance. We all acknowledge the common sense of planned maintenance, but the other needs of the Service are so great that the maintenance done is not so much planned as forced upon us, when something has broken down or is threatening to do so. There is a story, apocryphal no doubt, of a matron of an old hospital, one of whose ward sisters reported to her an outbreak of fire in the ward and asked her what she should do. The matron, desperate for a new building, replied "Fan it, Sister, fan it!" This slanderous story serves to mirror the feelings of a great many people who are striving to do modern hospital work in ancient surroundings. I grant at once that the problems of the Hospital Service cannot be solved overnight—nor are more staffs the only requisites. I believe, for instance, that we need also to deploy our existing trained staffs better throughout the Hospital Service, and in at any rate some hospitals to make better planned use of their scarce skills. And, incidentally, that last applies, in my view, to nurses, too.
The Minister of Health, when he was not in office, made his view very clear that more money ought to be provided for the ordinary running expenditure of the hospitals. This is obviously very relevant to the development of these ancillary services which we are debating today. The Hospital Service has grown and developed out of all recognition over the last sixteen years. Those of us who were working in it just after 1945 can remember how we struggled with a myriad of inadequacies. The Service as we know it to-day is exciting and inspiring. I would pay my tribute, with the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, to those doctors, nurses and other ancillary services who are helping to make it the Service it is; but much more has still to be done and it is sometimes difficult to remain patient.
In my maiden contribution to your Lordships' debates, I have been so anxious not to be controversial or provocative or to sin against the Standing Order relating to asperity of speech. I do not think it can be controversial if I conclude by saying how much we look forward to the realisation of many of the improvements in the Hospital Service
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which the present Minister also, when he was not in his present responsible position, said he hoped to see.
4.54 p.m.
LORD ARCHIBALD: My Lords, it is my privilege this afternoon, on behalf of all your Lordships, to congratulate the noble Lady, Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte, on her maiden speech. I hope she will not be offended by my pronunciation, but as a Lowland Scot I could hardly be expected to do justice to her title. We have all enjoyed a speech of great lucidity and of great, solid content. We hope that we shall hear from the noble Baroness on many occasions in the future.
One thing which has been common to most of the speeches this afternoon has been a probing of the deficiencies of our Medical and Hospital Services. Another factor is that the common solution has been, generally speaking, more money. However, I was glad to find that at the end of her speech the noble Baroness paid tribute to the success of the Medical and Hospital Services and their improvement over the period since 1948. Although I, too, am going to draw attention to what I regard as a deficiency, I would preface my remarks by saying that we should all pay a tribute to the great work done by the Medical and Hospital Services. In drawing attention to deficiencies, we are doing so, I hope, in a helpful rather than a destructive manner.
I will not detain your Lordships for very long because I want to draw attention to only one point with regard to the mental health services—and even that point is only within a rather specific and narrow aspect of the very wide field of the mental health services. I believe that in raising this point I may be pushing at an open door: at least, at a door soon to be opened. I believe that for two reasons. One is that we have a Minister of Health who has in the past shown deep and profound interest in the development of the mental health services. Another reason is that Her Majesty's Government have, in the Queen's speech, pledged themselves to the modernisation of the Hospital, Health and Welfare Services. I am also encouraged by the fact that my noble friend Lord Taylor, who is to reply, is himself particularly interested in the psychiatric services.

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The matter to which I wish to draw attention is, again, one of shortage in a particular category—namely, the shortage of psychiatric social workers, and particularly that which exists in the psychiatric hospitals. It is true that over the last two or three years the number of psychiatric social workers in all services has increased from 1962 to 1964 by a total of 123; but this increase has mainly been in child guidance and associated children's services, local authority mental health services, teaching posts and other social-work posts. Naturally, one does not begrudge these services the increased staff, insufficient though they be, which they have had. But one has to look at the other side, and that is the extent to which the psychiatric hospitals have fared in this connection. In fact, they have fared very badly indeed. The number of psychiatric workers in the psychiatric hospitals increased by only two from 1962 to 1963, and by only six in 1964. The significance of these minute figures will be appreciated when I say that 133 hospital posts for psychiatric social workers were advertised in 1964, and only six appointments were made—only six out of 133 vacancies were filled.
The reasons for this shortfall would appear to be twofold. One is the very familiar one to which I have already referred, and it has been referred to in connection with every other deficiency of staff: an inadequate salary scale. I am not going into that in detail, but it is interesting in passing to notice—I do not know why it should be—that the local authority salary scale is higher than the hospital scale in this particular regard. I recognise that the Ministry of Health Inquiry into the salary structure of the medical and psychiatric social workers has recently been set up. I hope that its Report may be helpful in this field, and I also hope that its Report will not be too long withheld.
But there is another reason for the shortfall. That, in my opinion, is the problem of training, which raises the question of the grants to the universities for the training of psychiatric social workers. I understand—I find it difficult to know what lies behind it—that the Minister of Health is not empowered to make grants towards university costs for the training of psychiatric social workers. On the other hand, the Home Office is
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able to contribute to university costs in training child-care and probation officers. Industry and commerce, as we all know, offer financial help to the universities for the training of people from whom industry and commerce believe they will get some advantage when that training has been completed.
I do not know why the Ministry of Health should not have similar powers to those of the Home Office, to make grants to universities to get the training in the fields where they require trained recruits. I suggest that the Ministry should be put in the same position as the Home Office, and should be able to make such grants to the universities as are needed to provide training for the requisite number of psychiatric social workers. One university, I am told, has available places for field work training and is unable to get the students because of the lack of financial support. We certainly need an increase in the number of university training places for medical and psychiatric social workers, and I hope that a sympathetic Ministry will make that possible in the not too distant future.
5.3 p.m.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, in addressing your Lordships' House for the first time, I have to confess that I find myself pack in somewhat familiar surroundings, on recalling the years after the war when it was occupied by the other place. In those days the Bar stood at the opposite end and my first impression was that this House was sitting the wrong way round—an impression doubtless shared by many noble Lords opposite. However, I am now beginning to feel that this House is indeed sitting the right way round, and that a wider acceptance of this view may gradually develop with the passage of time.
I am sure that many of us are deeply grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for having raised the subject of the Hospital and Medical Services at the present time. I have to thank him also for the felicitous remarks he made with reference to colleagues who are speaking for the first time; in my own case, if I may say so, somewhat over-felicitous remarks. I hope the noble Lord will forgive me if I confine my remarks to what I consider by far

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the most crucial issue facing the National Health Service—namely, the profound malaise now prevailing over the whole field of general practice to-day. The term "malaise" is a gross understatement, because at no time since the inception of the National Health Service Act in 1948 has the feeling of frustration, bitterness and disillusionment been so widespread among general practitioners as it is to-day.
I am quite convinced that no amount of increased remuneration, of better conditions of service, of further recruitment of doctors, of provision of locums and after-hours services, of postgraduate courses, of merit awards and bonuses, of rotas and abolition of pools, can wholly eradicate this feeling of bitterness and frustration, for its actual causes go much deeper than all these. They have arisen, in my opinion, from the totally false relationship that has developed between doctors in the National Health Service and a very small minority of their patients.
In the olden days before the Act of 1948, the patient would come to consult her doctor armed with a list of symptoms, the classical femme à petits papiers. Today that list has been replaced by a list of drugs, now offered, and rightly so in the case of a person who is genuinely ill, without any charge or payment whatever. But the essence of a list of symptoms was this: the experienced doctor could assess them in their order of importance, and, by concentrating his treatment on one or two of the major symptoms, could hope to eliminate most, if not all of the rest.
But woe betide the general practitioner who refuses to prescribe more than one or two of the list of drugs demanded! For him another list is directly involved; his own Capitation List on which he depends for his livelihood. No doctor can work at his best under such a relationship. It is almost as bad as the instance of the general practitioner setting out on his round of visits, who was stopped by a patient with the request: "Doctor, can you give me a certificate of incapacity for work, to enable me to go down to Cardiff to watch the Welsh Rugby International? If you do not, then Dr. B. round the corner will, and I and the whole of my family will transfer to his list." This doctor, to his credit, refused
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and the threatened transfer duly took place. This is admittedly a very rare and extreme case, but a single experience like this can rankle in a doctor's mind for days and months afterwards. It makes him wonder what on earth he is doing in general practice at all, and why all his years of scientific study and high endeavour should have reduced him to this low level.
That such a state of affairs can be allowed to exist is, to my mind, an indictment of the whole present-day relationship between a doctor and his patients. But now that all charges on prescriptions have been removed, there may well be some reduction in the actual quantities of drugs prescribed. The number of items may, indeed, show an increase, but the decision reached two days ago enabling the Ministry to purchase drugs abroad should effect a substantial economy. Some watch should, nevertheless, be exercised, so that the overall drug bill does not show too steep a rise. But so long as the existing capitation system of payment prevails, doctors may have difficulty in resisting the demands of a small minority of their patients.
I believe that, given time and restraint, the situation will adjust itself. But the whole position will need to be assessed in the light of experience, and it is hoped that interim statistics will be presented periodically to this House. Certainly, an increase in the issue of drugs can hardly be justified in the absence of an increase in illness, and the whole question of the repeated issue of household remedies, such as those issued in the absence of illness or in self-medication, may have to be reviewed.
The principle of free medicine to those who are genuinely ill is so right and just that it would indeed be a pity if it were jeopardised by the demands of a small, importunate minority. The highly-experienced prescribing section of the Ministry of Health will now be faced with a new situation, which I am sure they will be able to resolve with success and distinction. Time and again doctors have pleaded for the abolition of the pool; yet it survives to-day, more complicated, more illogical, more inimical to the best interests of medical practice than ever before. No profound grasp of the intricacies of higher mathematics

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is required to convince anyone that, whoever else may have won on the pools, the really good doctor and the really sick patient have been definitely the losers.
Those of us who are able to rejoice in our own family/doctor relationship (and a perfect example of this has been brought home to us during these last agonising days) can realise how futile it is to assess such a profoundly human relationship in terms comparable with the output of machine tools or a 4 per cent. rise in productivity. I have never been able to understand why the present system of capitation fees must be regarded as sacrosanct. If any such suggestion were made for the remuneration of specialists, it would at once be laughed out of court. So would the same suggestion if made to dentists, or to medical officers of the Armed Forces, of the Ministry of Health, or of the Public Health Service or the School Medical Service. Why, then, have general practitioners alone been singled out for this shabby treatment? It is all very well now to fling it back in their faces, and say that this method was chosen, in all good faith, some sixteen years ago by the vast majority of the doctors themselves. But the fact is that it has since been falsified in the light of experience. So that to-day a good doctor, who desires to maintain his highest standards of medical practice, fines himself compelled to limit the size of his capitation list; and in this aim he has consistently received the benediction of the Ministry of Health.
There are so many alternative methods of remuneration to be considered, which could go far to relieve the present malaise in medicine, and to raise the status of the general practitioner: not only payment by salary, but also payment by sessions, or by items of service, or by a combination of these. Could not some small pilot schemes be tried out in different parts of the country, where they are approved by a majority of the local doctors, and where local conditions of practice may lend themselves easily to such tests? Or could not even an individual doctor be allowed to opt for some alternative method of remuneration, say for a period of two or three years, in order to test its effect on his own doctor/patient relationship? Such practical tests, to my mind, would be
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worth more than a cartload of questionnaires.
Many of us are instinctively averse to any form of amending legislation. But where the National Health Service may have gone wrong—and no service is perfect—as, for example, in the captitation system or the pool; or in the many difficulties that still beset a young doctor, despite the initial practice allowance; or in the plight of an ageing practitioner; or in the relative immobility of an established doctor, who has long become stale in his surroundings, then it is wise to go back to first principles, and to consider some alternative to existing legislation. Especially just now, when the present Government are trying to lead the country into a radical re-thinking of the whole of our defence problems, and into a re-thinking of the whole basis of our industrial relationships, has not the time also come for a re-thinking of the whole present relationship of the general practitioner towards his patients?
My noble friend Lord Taylor has often taken a distinguished part in previous medical debates in this House, and no one is better fitted than he to reply on behalf of the Government. The fact that we now have an entirely new team to speak in both Houses for the Ministry of Health is the one gleam of hope in an otherwise sombre outlook. They are also served by as loyal and conscientious a body of civil servants as any Minister would wish for. But there is a real danger that the Bruce-Fraser Working Party may resolve itself into a reporting party, and fail to give our general practitioners the lead that has now become so desperately urgent.
I would also venture to remind my noble friend that the medical profession, probably the second oldest profession in the world (it has, I may say, nothing in common with the oldest), does not take kindly to legislation: it is too steeped in tradition, and rightly glories in its individualism. It knows that the impact of a doctor's personality is often worth more than a shelf-load of medical text-books, as many a patient, saturated with antibiotics, has found out, to his cost. It knows, too, that a doctor's personality can often impress itself far more effectively in the privacy of his own surgery, or in his own home,

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than it can in a hospital or a health centre, or even in a group surgery. For too many doctors, on the other hand, the lock-up surgery is partly a form of escapism.
Small wonder that general practitioners to-day are apt to mourn with the poet:
"The capitation system is too much with us, late and soon,
Gaining or losing, we lay waste our powers,
Little we see in the National Health Service that is ours,
We have eaten our hearts away for a sordid pool".
So I would plead with my noble friend who is to reply to avoid the grafting of new legislation upon existing legislation, to try to ease the burden of blue prints and blue books and blue prospects, and to give the general practitioner a little more freedom to call his soul his own.
My Lords, I know only too well that my noble friend cannot reply to this debate as fully as he himself would wish, and I would not press him for an immediate answer. We can only hope that his remarks, in replying to this debate, will be followed by speedy and effective action, so that the high hopes of so many anxious sections of the community now, at long last, centred on our new Ministers, may be a little further on the road towards fulfilment.
5.20 p.m.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: I am privileged to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Segal, on his excellent maiden speech. His great experience of medical administration will be of the utmost value in your Lordships' future deliberations and we look forward eagerly to further wise contributions from him. We must be most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for ventilating this subject, about which I, as a member of the Hospital Service, feel perhaps more Wrongly than some of your Lordships who may not be so conscious of the accumulating difficulties. It is a disappointing commentary on the evolution of the Hospital Service that each time, except once, that I have addressed your Lordships the theme has been the same. I do not wholly exaggerate when I say that my thesaurus is liable to fall open at a now rather grubby page and at paragraph 53. This paragraph is headed
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"Incompleteness" but it encompasses also other similar abstractions. It is the one that I have consulted time and again in search of synonyms for "shortage".
The theme of to-day's debate is regrettably familiar. There is no doubt at all at the present time that the Hospital Service is living on borrowed time, and that the increasing shortage of members of professions supplementary to medicine will, if not remedied, bring the Service down. As your Lordships have heard, the remedy lies almost solely in improving pay, conditions and prospects in these professions. There is a ghastly snowball of difficulties. For example, the establishment of physiotherapists in my hospital area is 30; the average number in post during last year was 21, and the lowest number, during school holidays when a number of part-time physiotherapists had unpaid leave, was 16. The overwork required of those in post is such that a physiotherapist must be particularly dedicated otherwise she will feel it more sensible to take herself and her skills elsewhere. The other day a girl trained in our physiotherapy department in Reading, and having only three years' experience, was eagerly snapped up by Nuffield Motors. She was to be paid slightly more than the superintendent physiotherapist who had largely trained her—and this without emergency duty, with better holidays and a better pension scheme. The Hospital Service cannot compete with this sort of thing.
When considering the shortage of radiographers we find that the factor that most influences this is, again, salary in comparison with salaries in commerce. A senior radiographer can double his pay by becoming a representative of a firm selling X-ray material. The shortage of radiographers, as much as increasing the work demands on X-ray Departments, is responsible for the often deplorable delays in arranging examinations which might provide diagnoses: life-saving if correct; tragic if correct but too late. It must be a prime consideration of the Hospital Service that needless death and suffering must not be laid at its doors. The shortage of radiographers must, therefore, be remedied. Countless women die every year from cancer of the uterine cervix. None need do so if sufficient facilities are provided for the necessary screening techniques. The shortage of laboratory technicians, which

1205
is in the main responsible for this squandering of lives, must be remedied.
I will not weary your Lordships with a great list of similar deprivations which the public, in their ignorance, accept; but examples are the difficulties in the fields of open heart surgery and artificial kidney work. We have the requisite skills; we have, indeed, pioneered large fields. But in many areas lack of trained technicians has gravely curtailed this work.
Now, my Lords, I wish to speak quite briefly about a ludicrous situation which now exists in the Hospital Service—I refer to the shortage of pharmacists. I say "ludicrous", because, whereas other staff shortages to which I have referred disastrously prejudice patient care, this shortage not only does that but also levies a considerable charge on the Hospital Service for the privilege of doing so. I will explain. Because of this shortage (I shall refer to some of the reasons, but they will be only too familiar against the background of the Hospital Service) it has followed that all over the country many hospital pharmacists have been compelled to discontinue prescribing to outpatients. We, the staff, have, therefore, been obliged to prescribe on the same form as the family doctor, the so-called E.C.10. The patient then, often at personal inconvenience, repairs to a retail chemist where the drugs are dispensed. It has been estimated that the Ministry of Health pays some £450, 000 a year more for prescriptions dispensed on E.C.10 than if they were dispensed by a hospital pharmacy. The absurdity is that the cost of meeting the last Whitley Council salary claim (which was unsuccessful in the Industrial Court) would not have exceeded £400, 000. If that claim had been met, there is every reason to suppose that, at least for a time, the shortage of hospital pharmacists would have been relieved.
It is, to me, and doubtless will be to your Lordships, a daunting thought that one chest clinic in the Oxford Region has reported that drugs which would have cost £2, 200 if supplied from the hospital had been re-costed, having come from a retail chemist, at £9, 750. I think that even the most philanthropic commercial concern would justly be regarded by their accountants as spendthrift if they went on in this way. There are a number of
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reasons for this inflated cost, but part is clearly due to the fact that the retail chemist is unable to take advantage of the Ministry of Health's central contracts for the supply of cheaper but equally effective drugs. Monday's Judicial decision in your Lordships' House in the matter of these drugs simply enhances the importance of these contracts. There are also the factors of bulk buying and Regional Hospital Board contracts which keep prices down for the Hospital Service.
But, my Lords, aside altogether from this frightful and, I believe, needless waste of money there is a more important element—danger—involved in this situation. I shall attempt to explain this in a moment or two. All pharmacists, hospital, retail or industrial, are members of an honourable and learned profession in its own right and, as such, are not included on the Register of Professions Supplementary to Medicine. G.C.E. "A" levels in physics, chemistry and biology or mathematics are minimum requirements. The minimum period of training is three years at a university, or at an approved school of pharmacy, with a further pre-registration year getting practical experience. But within the profession we can clearly discern exactly the same competing factors that have been described in your Lordships' House to-day in regard to physiotherapists, laboratory technicians, radiographers and others.
The issue facing a qualified pharmacist is materially straightforward. He can enter retail pharmacy, where his minimum pay on entry will be £1, 200, or he can enter the hospital pharmacy service, where his maximum on entry will be just over £1, 000. If our young retail pharmacist succeeds, and in due course becomes a departmental manager, he will Probably earn £1, 700 a year and will be Provided with free accommodation. A hospital chief pharmacist will earn no more than £1, 600, without accommodation, and may, as in our case in Reading, be responsible for an annual budget exceeding £100, 000.
It is true, of course, that money is not the only motivator, nor free accommodation a decisive factor. Hospital pharmacists regard themselves, as it were, as consultants in pharmacy. They devote themselves entirely to the sciences of

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pharmacy and to the application of pharmacy to medical advance, and they work as part of the hospital team. This no doubt is satisfying. A pharmacist in private practice or in commerce, however, should not be regarded as an inferior being, but his development is in the business world and he is obliged to devote a great deal of his time and energy to this world, as distinct from his profession.
It may be possible that some of your Lordships regard a pharmacist working in a hospital or in a shop as substantially the same creature, each faithfully, but pedestrianly, dispensing the drugs prescribed by the doctors. Nothing could be more incorrect. With the progressive complexity of drug therapy, the hospital pharmacist is increasingly required to act as an adviser to the medical staff on drug doses, drug incompatibilities, and the problems, unhappily more frequent recently, of dangerous drug side effects. The whole field of drug therapy is his—not in most cases as an initiator, but as a monitor of knowledge. He is an absolutely indispensable part of the Hospital Service. We must see to it that his special skills are not dispersed by dissatisfaction. The Hospital Service will founder unless it is appreciated how essential all these diversely skilled people who have been discussed to-day are to that Service and unless a more enlightened attitude to their Service conditions prevails.
5.35 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, I am young in the service of your Lordships' House and therefore I plead for the consideration which your Lordships always are willing to accord to the novice. May I say how deeply grateful I am to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for the gracious personal reference which he made in the preface to his speech?
I wish to introduce into this debate a word which we try to avoid using in our personal conversations with our families and friends. We coin all kinds of euphemisms to describe it. We skate around it as often as we can, as delicately as we can. That word is "cancer". I spent 40 years of my working life engaged in the production of newspapers. Please do not think too harshly of me for that. One of the things I always used to advise, as the news editor of one of the great
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morning national newspapers and then as assistant editor of that paper, was that writers and reporters should always get the main point of their story into the first paragraph. I shall try to get as near to that as I can this afternoon.
I have it in mind to try to make two points. The first is that although grants are made by the Medical Research Council in aid of cancer research and development, a very great deal of that work relies upon the generous-hearted donations of philanthropic citizens. Therefore it might well be that this work is not so co-ordinated and so comprehensive as it might be. It might well be that only too often the researchers have to cut their coats according to their cloth.
The second point I wish to make, arising from that, is this. Can we not, through the National Health Service or through some similar official channel, provide systematic and substantial aid to enable us to go forward progressively in expanding this research? Personally, I should like to see £10 million set aside for this purpose. That money, I feel, should be used both for research and for treatment. In connection with research, by expanding and co-ordinating all the work of the surgeons, physicians, hospitals, radiographers, bio-chemists, and even nuclear physicists. And also in assisting with the money they urgently need many of those worthy voluntary organisations that exist to assist with cancer research activities. I would particularly urge that money should be devoted to the training of still more researchers, still more postgraduate students, because not only is there a shortage of these people at the moment but there will be an even greater shortage in the generation to come unless we tackle this problem now.
In the field of treatment I would suggest that we should supply more widely to the hospitals the newest ultra-revolutionary electrically-based machines which have been proved to be adequate for the treatment of certain kinds of cancer. They are now very sparsely distributed among the hospitals of this land, and then very often because of the result of private charitable effort. I should like to see a national "blitz" on cancer with no cost spared.
I am not going to concern myself especially with that particular kind of

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cancer which has received an enormous amount of publicity recently—that is to say, cancer of the lung. This is a very special problem, but I do not want the consideration of it to overshadow the general problem, nor do I wish to enter into the controversy as to whether lung cancer is contributed to in any respect by smoking, particularly by cigarette smoking. I would say, incidentally, that it is quite easy to give up smoking if only the effort is made. When I was 25 I said to myself one afternoon, when I was going to work: "Give up smoking for the next 25 years." The anti-litter laws were not then so stringent as they are to-day, and I threw my cigarette packet in the gutter: and that was that! It is true that when I became 50 I kept the other part of the bargain and started to smoke again. This time it was a pipe. But after a few years I gave that up as well. As I say, if the effort is made, it is not impossible to give up smoking.
There is no doubt whatever that cancet is on the increase. I am not going to weary your Lordships with statistics: they mount up to a terrifying total of 100, 000 deaths a year and incalculable human suffering. I am going to say that when we look at the statistical picture of this disease it may not be quite fair to compare today's statistics with those of a decade or so ago. It may be that in our more cancer-conscious days our registration and our diagnosis is more accurate than it used to be. It may well be that cases which were diagnosed as being due to bronchitis and other diseases ten, twenty or thirty years ago were probably due to cancer. But when all these modifications and qualifications in the statistical picture have been made, it is undoubtedly a fact that cancer is becoming more and more of a murderer in our modern society.
We can all recall many friends whom we have "known long since and lost awhile". I myself can count up a dozen of my intimate friends who have been killed by this disease during the last few years. There was a jovial old farmer in the Essex village where I lived who went into hospital. The surgeon made an exploratory incision. The old gentleman, when he came out of hospital, thought that everything had been removed. But there was practically nothing that could be done. There was another farmer—and I mention farmers because they live
1210
an open air life and engage in healthy exercise every day—a member of the county council over which I had the honour to preside, who went in the same way. There was another member of the county council, one of the most conscientious in the performance of his duties, who suddenly began to miss our meetings. Within a few weeks he had gone as well.
The chairman of the urban district council to which I used to belong also disappeared after three or four weeks in hospital. In the newspaper office where I used to work, four of my former colleagues have died from this disease in the last few years. Then there was one of my neighbours, a non-smoker for the whole of his life and an enthusiastic walker in the open air, whom I used to meet striding through Epping Forest whenever I went there, who died not long ago from lung cancer. Then there was the beloved old rector of my Essex village. He, with great fortitude, kept the secret from us all, but he, too, was taken from us.
There was one more case which hit my heart the hardest of all, a worthy artisan, a member of my county council and a close comrade in political work. He told us that he had to go into hospital for a gallstone operation. He went in and had the operation. His wife, incidentally, had told some of us it was cancer. He came out and he thought he was cured. We gave him sympathetically some electoral work to do to keep his mind active; but within three months we had to say goodbye to him. I do not want to weary your Lordships with any more of these personal recollections, and I have given these few examples to show that this is a very personal and not merely an abstract problem.
While I do not want to say anything more about that, I must praise all those surgeons, physicians, radiologists, biochemists and others who are in the front line of this great fight, and along with them the many voluntary organisations, whom I do not in any way wish to displace and whose work I trust will expand rather than contract. But the magnitude of this menace is such that we cannot leave it partly to voluntary organisations and partly to donations and grants on occasion from the Medical Research Council. I think we have to mobilise the

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whole resources of this very wealthy State to take a more active part in the direction of this fight. The money required would be merely a drop in the ocean compared with the amount we spend each year, and rightly spend each year, on national defence. I want to repeat that I do not belittle in any way all the voluntary effort that goes into this very worthy work; but it simply is not enough.
I want to take a look at the position of some of these voluntary societies, and I would crave your Lordships' permission to quote from their recent annual reports. There is the Institute of Cancer Research. They complain that the completion of the Royal Marsden Hospital, Surrey Branch was being postponed until 1972. They called this "a great disappointment", first because of its effect on the treatment of patients by radiotherapy, and secondly, because of its effect on research. I do not know whether that postponement has been reconsidered; but even if it has, the making of one decision and then its reversal by another decision does not provide a very good foundation on which to build an ordered, progressive programme of research. The Institute had a deficit of £23, 000 on the year, but they said that the financial position would worsen yearly until 1967, and that unless the Medical Research Council could give help they would have to draw on a fund that they were keeping in reserve for major capital expenditure and for the financing of postgraduate scholarships. This is a very shaky kind of foundation upon which to construct any kind of systematic programme.
Then there is the British Empire Cancer Campaign for Research. During the year their expenditure exceeded their income by £78, 000. They made what appeared to me to be a very sensible point. They said that any unhappy influence, economic or otherwise—and we can all visualise such possibilities—might affect the inflow of funds and thus possibly jeopardise the research programme. I suggest that this again is not a satisfactory basis on which this work should be founded.
Then there is the Imperial Cancer Research Fund. Their complaint was quite a different one. They said:
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"Until we have additional and more regularised clinical co-operation the progress of several of our projects will be seriously retarded. We will not be making full use of the unrivalled laboratory facilities which we have."
That, again, is not exactly a happy kind of situation.
I want to say a word or two about one form of cancer treatment, and it is the form which is based upon electrical energy. We read a few days ago that the Churchill Hospital in Oxford had installed what was said to be the most modern cancer treating machine that had ever been devised—a 35 million volt linear accelerator. The announcement said that this had been installed by the Minister of Health. In my political youth I never dreamed that I should stand up in any public place and pronounce a benediction on any Minister of any Party, but I certainly do in respect of that. The distinction between this particular type of machine and the ordinary X-ray apparatus is one that has been explained to me as a layman and which I think I can comprehend. It is that the rays are shot on to the malignant cells which are the target and do not proceed past that target and damage the tissue beyond. That sounds to me to be a development well worthy of encouragement. If that is the case, if the potentialities of this machine are of the nature which I have indicated, then why can we not supply it to more and more central hospitals here and there throughout the land out of this £10 million which I have suggested might be devoted for this kind of purpose?
A week or so ago the editor of the People newspaper announced the distribution of the charitable fund which he raised in response to a Christmas appeal. He said he was giving £4, 000 to the Guildford Ray Therapy Centre towards the cost of a betatron which they had purchased. This betatron is a somewhat similar machine to the one I mentioned in the case of the Churchill Hospital. The Churchill Hospital machine is a British machine. The editor went on to say that this was costing the Guildford Centre £150, 000, the whole of which had to be raised by public appeal. Again, I repeat what I said in the other case. If these machines are effective, if they are capable of bringing relief to suffering people, can we not use some public funds—that £10

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million which I have mentioned—to see that this kind of machine is located at convenient spots throughout the length and breadth of the country?
There is one thing more that I must mention and that is the question of early diagnosis. The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, who preceded me, touched on this matter. The fear and dread of cancer of the cervix is something which hangs over the head of every woman. There is at this moment a campaign on foot for the provision of routine testing facilities. It will be known to your Lordships that a simple smear testing system has been devised, and that the Minister has given this system his blessing. But last year the Minister explained that there would be considerable delay in training the laboratory staff who would be necessary if this smear system was to be adopted generally. And he also said:
"There would be considerable delay in the establishment of any routine form of testing."
The Ministry have said that they will provide the money to train the laboratory assistants. I plead with my noble friend to try to persuade the Ministry to expedite this work, because so much depends upon it.
The Report of the Central Health Services Council for 1963 rather tends to dilute the pleasure which I find in that announcement that the smear campaign could be carried on, because that Report says:
"The adoption of general population screening would have significant effects upon the hospital services. Finance might have to be allocated to this work at: the expense of other developments."
I am a financial realist—Goodness knows! I have to be—but I do not see why it should necessarily be that, if finance is devoted to this worthy work, which is blessed by the Minister of Health, it calls for financial cuts in other branches of the Hospital Service.
Then there is a second example from that same Report of the Central Health Services Council. It says:
"Beds and theatre time would need to be allocated to accommodate patients admitted as a result of the tests."
In other words, we know there is something wrong with them; we know they want treatment, but we cannot give it to them yet. So they may get worse,
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and ultimately they might have to stop in hospital for months instead of merely for weeks. I hope my noble friend will pay some attention to this matter as well. I know there is a shortage of hospitals. I know that hospitals and staffs cannot be produced merely by the waving of a wand, but in this matter of testing for cancer of the cervix could not clinics be established in a centralised hospital in each area, so that the facilities for the time being might match the needs? I am quite sure that that should not be beyond the possibility of execution, and I hope that some consideration will be given to it.
There were two more passages in Central Health Services Council Reports which seemed to me to be rather disappointing. The first was in the 1962 Report, and it was this:
"Standing Advisory Committee on Cancer and Radiotherapy. This Committee was not called upon to meet in 1962."
The corresponding Report for 1963 said:
"The Committee was not called upon to meet during 1963."
I know that committees do not mean everything. I am not so naive as to think that even if a committee does meet it necessarily does some work. But when we view this as part of the general picture, may it not indicate that perhaps some overall co-ordination is needed by some kind of Cancer General Staff?
One more point concerns industrial cancer. I know that my noble friend Lord Taylor has perhaps devoted more attention to the industrial health service than almost anybody else in this country. Many preventive measures have been taken during recent years which have curbed the spread of many industrial cancers—mule spinners cancer; cancer associated with the tar and pitch industries; cancer associated with some branches of the rubber industry. But all the time new industries are growing up, and new industrial processes are being devised, and many of these are extremely dangerous. Only last week we had the case of a cable factory in the East End of London where four men are said to have died from cancer, said to have been induced by the use of some chemical at that factory. I will say no more about that, because obviously some detailed examination of the evidence in that case is needed. I shall regard it as being

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sub judice for the moment Although we can register progress in the realm of industrial cancer, at the same time we must not allow that progress to breed complacency.
This is not a national problem; it is a world problem. The best brains of every civilised country in the world are engaged upon it, and they arrange for interchanges of their discoveries and their information. We do not know where the breakthrough is going to come. We have to search for the fundamental cause and, at the same time, have to expand the use of such ameliorative treatments as are already available to us now. It may come through improvements in surgery, by earlier diagnosis, by the use of these electrical instruments, by the study of hormones, and perhaps even through developments in connection with drugs which may provide a cure, or may provide immunisation, but in respect of which enormous research in many pans of the world has not yet really led to any substantial results.
Perhaps the breakthrough will come accidentally—such scientific discoveries often have. We all remember Newton's apple and James Watt's kettle. But do not let us have to cut our coats according to the cloth that happens to be available. The prize is enormous and I think we should spare no effort, withhold no money, that might take us a step along the road. I think we should invest our money and our effort on a grander and more imaginative scale than we have ever done before. And if, through applying our minds to this subject, we can convince ourselves that this is the right thing to do, and then if we do it, I think that in the coming years millions of men and women will bless this House.
6.01 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I have the pleasure of following two of my noble friends who have made their maiden speeches this afternoon, and I should like to congratulate them both. First there is my noble friend Lord Segal, who was a colleague of mine in the other place and who, of course is very near and dear to me because we are both members of the same profession. I want to congratulate him, as I have congratulated him years before this, on an excellent exposition of a medical
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subject. Indeed, in the way in which I propose to follow him one would have thought that we had consulted together before this debate; but, as my noble friend knows, we have not discussed the matter at all. Nevertheless, if I may, I shall dot his "i's" and cross his "t's".
I also follow my noble friend Lord Leatherland, whom I had the honour of sponsoring. Many of us have for years watched his wonderful work on the Essex County Council, and as we sat and listened to him to-day we were reminded of his humanity, of his application of science to the needs of the ordinary human being I hope very much that on other occasions when we have health debates we shall have equally good contributions from both my noble friends.
I am very sorry that on the other side of the House the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, is not in the Chamber at the moment. I just missed the beginning of her speech, but I understand that she reminded the House that I muttered to somebody when she came here that this was a "job for the girls" at last. In a House of this kind it is rather refreshing to see another woman's face, and any noble Lord who heard her this afternoon will realise that we have added to the House a woman of experience, knowledge, and, if I may say so to my noble friend in front of me, one obviously coming from the Principality—because that is why she had such facility of language. I hope, therefore, that we shall hear her again.
Many of us here have taken part in similar debates before, and we must thank the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for putting this Motion on the Order Paper in order to give us another opportunity to speak on the various aspects of the National Health Service. He said, I think quite wisely, in his opening remarks that he had No 1ntention of adopting a political attitude. I will say quite gently to him that it would be a little difficult to charge the new Government with not having remedied all the omissions in the Health Service which we inherited. If evidence of this is wanted, one has only to read almost any newspaper any day to find articles and letters from doctors stating their long-standing grievances, which have culminated in a sense of frustration.

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Now, of course, the situation has reached a climax: with 400 general practitioners emigrating every year. We are, in fact, as I have said before, in the most curious position of finding doctors who qualify here emigrating to other countries, while we are introducing into our hospitals and general practice doctors from Commonwealth countries, some of whom, of course, take a little time to grasp our language in order to be able to communicate quite freely with the patient. Indeed, the position is so bad that one of the doctors' organisations is contemplating strike action; and even the ultra temperate British Medical Association, which has dragged its feet for far too long, is writing letters of protest to The Times. This is indeed revolutionary in the field of medicine.
It takes years of neglect and incompetence in high places to create this situation. A recent cartoon well illustrated the position, with a sketch of a bent, over-burdened general practitioner and a youth entering a medical school. The youth was calling out: "Don't give up, Doc; I'll be out in eight years". The fact is, my Lords, that owing to the failure to meet the demand of potential medical students we cannot hope for any improvement in the doctor—population ratio before the 1970s. We have had Committees on the subject. The doctors have waited patiently. The latest Committees, the Porritt Committee and the Gillie Committee, have examined the grievances of the family doctors—grievances other than those concerning remuneration—and have made it clear to the Government of the day that these grievances were well founded. However, it was deemed necessary to set up a Working Party, under Sir Bruce Fraser; and again the exasperated doctors have been asked, collectively and individually, to submit their complaints. Nothing new has emerged, and my noble friend Lord Taylor, who is to reply to this debate, will know what I have in mind when I put to him certain things which I think might be done immediately. There was no need for me to warn him about them: he knows all about them, because he has read about all these various Committees year after year.
The fact is that the general practitioner has a responsibility for his patients for
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24 hours a day throughout the year. Furthermore, he must provide a deputy for holidays, sickness and time off. In a community where the tendency is towards a shorter working week, these men and women, whose work involves physical and mental strain, are denied adequate leisure, and their sense of vocation is exploited. I emphasise that point, because there was a letter from a member of the Church in The Times the other day which charged the medical profession with being a little greedy. He said that they had a sense of vocation, and that they should remember that. We have heard about these girls in the various professions supplementary to medicine, to whom the same applies: their sense of vocation is being exploited, and it is for us here in Parliament to come forward and protect them. The general practitioners formed a rota system which was devised by doctors, on their own initiative, to give them some relief. But even this is now becoming more and more difficult to work, since the individual is so over-worked during his own day that he feels unable to offer his neighbour, when he is away, his time and his energies because it means double work.
May I put this point to my noble friend? In the hospital field, the Service provides adequate relief for its medical staff. Why cannot the same attitude be adopted for the general medical service? I suggest that the Executive Council, in close collaboration with the local medical committee, could operate a scheme whereby the family doctor is equally well cared for. Furthermore—and perhaps noble Lords are not aware of this point—the personal responsibility which a doctor carries for the acts and omissions of his deputy is undoubtedly a great hardship. When the doctor is away, even on his holiday, if by chance he has a locum who drinks, and he finds, on his return, that the locum has not fulfilled his duty properly, it is not the drinking locum who is held responsible, but the doctor who owns the practice and who has been away on his holiday. It has been strongly represented by the doctors that a qualified doctor in charge of another's practice should be required to accept full responsibility for his own actions.
The latest burden, I feel, that has been placed on the back of the doctor is to act

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as a tester, let me call it for pharmaceutical firms who are more concerned with making quick profits than with the safety of the public. Each week up to a hundred reports of adverse reactions to drugs are being received from doctors by the Ministry of Health Committee on the Safety of Drugs. The overworked general practitioner has been asked to report on the side effects of drugs which should surely have been adequately tested before their release to the public. The pharmaceutical firms who are using the public as guinea-pigs are ensuring that they are afforded some protection if there is another thalidomide scandal, by blaming the doctors for not reporting side effects. It seems that there is no control being exercised over this very powerful industry.
The profession are aware, of course, of the pressure tactics of the pharmaceutical commercial travellers who pester them endlessly, and they are advised by the Ministry of Health to use the equivalent of the national formulary for proprietary drugs. I know, and my noble friend knows, that in order to try to keep down the cost of the Health Service—and the average prescription now costs 9s.—we have regional medical officers who examine doctors' prescriptions, and if they find they have been over-prescribing the doctors concerned are warned. I should like to suggest to my noble friend that, as well as this warning, letters should be sent to doctors who consistently ignore the national formulary in favour of expensive proprietary drugs.
If any noble Lord here thinks that the picture which noble Lords are giving of the doctor's life is over-stated and the doctor is not suffering from overwork and inadequate leisure, he should examine the Registrar General's figures, which disclose that the highest rate of coronary thrombosis is found among doctors. We all know that the profession is now awaiting with impatience the report of the review body, and meanwhile, as my noble friend has said, it seems that there is no support for the pool system of assessing remuneration. May I put this question to my noble friend? If it is decided to continue the capitation system, why is no attempt made to estimate what would be the fair capitation fee for looking after one patient for one year? Under the pool system it works out at something like
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18s. a year, but I am hoping, of course, that the pool system will end when we hear the announcement from the Minister. The capitation system was introduced in 1911 and one wonders whether the time has not arrived seriously to consider whether it has served its purpose.
While the older people in the profession, I know, do not favour a salaried service, nevertheless most young doctors regard it favourably. And again I was so pleased to hear what my noble friend said on the subject. Under a salaried service the doctor would be free to express his candid opinion of a malingerer or a compulsive drug taker and withhold unnecessary prescriptions. However, under the capitation system if the most honest man pursues this policy in his consulting room he may well jeopardise his whole livelihood. How can you expect an honest, idealistic young doctor with three children to bring up to say, "Now I will be so honest with my patients that they will walk out of the room and take their cards to another doctor", or indeed charge the doctor in the consulting room, which is not at all uncommon, and say, "If you are not going to give me this drug I will go elsewhere"? This surely is too much to expect from a young doctor. I think that a combination of the capitation system and a salaried service could be introduced immediately by paying a salary to part-time doctors practising from a health centre. This could well serve as a trial run for a salaried service, and of course if it proved unsatisfactory it could be dropped.
We have to-day heard so much about physiotherapists; we heard from the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, with his great knowledge. All of us here applaud what he said and absolutely accept his attitude towards the question. Doctors, not only those in hospitals, but general practitioners all over the country, who deal with the problem of the aged persons living at the top of a building and wanting some help other than that of the doctor feel that if a physiotherapist could visit them it would help tremendously, and they are pressing for a domiciliary physiotherapy service. What hope is there of meeting their needs? There were 3, 907 physiotherapists practising in 1955, and 3,912 in 1962. This means an increase of five in seven years. What an appalling picture of stagnation! And yet

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these are auxiliary workers who would of course help the overpressed general practitioner. I am told that this situation is true by and large of each of the professions supplementary to medicine, and the shortage is primarily due to low rates of pay.
I feel we should be constructive. It seems to me that a Review Body similar to that of the medical profession should be set up and charged with responsibility to determine fairly the relation of one profession to another, and salaries which will attract both men and women. I see no reason why these other professional groups should not be treated in the same way as the medical profession when it comes to a question of assessing their remuneration.
Another constant source of irritation could be removed if the admission procedure at hospitals were improved. Unfortunately, hospital doctors always seem to be far removed from the general practitioner and they do not realise how precious the time of the general practitioner is, and if the admission procedure could be improved this would save the precious time of the general practitioner over emergency admissions.
I now come to the maternity services. I listened to my noble friend Lord Sorensen and I rather gathered from him that we should not have a sufficient number of beds until 1975. I may be wrong; I will read his speech again. Every noble Lord must know that the need for beds is very pressing. I have said this before and I must say it again: it seems to me as if we are living in an underdeveloped country when I read of women being discharged from hospital 24 hours after their confinement, as they are: in England to-day. Therefore the need for more maternity beds is one of the greatest urgency.
There is also a strong feeling that those doctors who elected to practise obstetrics should be provided with refresher courses at intervals of at least five years. Doctors complain of the shortage of midwives. Yet what can we expect when we consider the miserable conditions of service of these fine women? As I drive to the House every day I pass a woman in blue with her equipment, riding on a bicycle in the heart of London's traffic. She is one of our midwives, going to do work of
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paramount importance. I feel that this symbolises the attitude of authority towards the auxiliary workers in the National Health Service.
I want now to say something about certification. I have already said that the general practitioner's time is precious. I think the whole question of certification needs examining. If it is clear that a patient will be at home for more than a week, why cannot a doctor exercise his discretion and give a first certificate for a longer period? Why should he, or she, in this weather, being grossly overworked, be required to attend a patient weekly at home merely to issue a certificate, when no medical treatment is necessary? I have sought to make it clear that there are widespread grievances which need not wait upon the Report of the Review Body. I ask my noble friend, who has again escaped me—
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): He is not far away.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: His ears are with me; that is the most important thing. I ask my noble friend to make a gesture of sympathy, because he has it in his power and he understands these things. If you understand these things you can take much more action than if you have to sit back and are told about them. I ask him to make a gesture of sympathy to the long-suffering family doctor, by expediting the means whereby these legitimate complaints can be dealt with.
6.23 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I should like first of all to associate myself with the most sincere and well-deserved tributes that have been paid to our four maiden speakers to-day. My noble friend Lord Auckland listed them all at the beginning of the debate, and I think I can fairly say that the expectations that he raised then were well realised in the event. Speaking for these Benches, I hope that we shall have the pleasure of hearing all four of them again many times in your Lordships' House. I cannot remember an occasion in your Lordships' House when, in one debate, we have had four maiden speakers; so it may be that one record has been broken this afternoon.

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I should also like to add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Auckland for initiating this debate to-day. I think it has been a valuable debate, and it has covered, as I felt it would, a wide field. Your Lordships may remember that the last full-scale debate in your Lordships' House in the previous Parliament was concerned with the Hospital and Medical Services. That was at the end of July, and many noble Lords who are now sitting on the Government Benches were at that time not slow in offering criticism of many aspects of the National Health Service and in urging prompt action in the implementation of their solution to the problems that they raised. I hope that I successfully defended my own Party's record on that occasion.
The priority to-day remains the same as it was then—namely, how best to serve the public for whom, in terms of human happiness and security, the National Health Service is perhaps the most important of all the public services. I think your Lordships will wish to hear this afternoon how the Government, after nearly four months in office, are approaching this part of their responsibilities. I quite agree that four months is not a long time, but I may say that so far I have not seen any great sign of action. The 100 days seems almost to have passed by the Ministry of Health; but, judging by its effect in some directions, perhaps that is just as well.
We have had one measure, the abolition of prescription charges, for which the Government can rightly claim to have a small mandate. It will certainly, as I said on the occasion of the announcement, and rightly so, benefit a number of people—the chronically sick, those on National Assistance, and war disablement pensioners. But I still feel that it would have been better to deal with these categories more selectively, and possibly to save the greater part of the £20 million-odd that total abolition will cost, for perhaps some of the more urgent needs of the Health Service which many noble Lords have raised this afternoon, for there are indeed—I think this is recognised on all sides of the House—many problems within the Health Service which are troubling your Lordships.
I should like briefly this evening again to refer to a few of them, in the hope of eliciting some information which I am
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quite certain that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, with his usual kindness and courtesy, will do his best to provide. First—and this is something which has been raised many times—there is the really urgent problem of the remuneration of general practitioners and the general shortage of doctors. The noble Lord, Lord Segal, in his most interesting speech, I thought, gave the House a valuable analysis of the feeling among the profession. He suggested different types and systems of remuneration which might be adopted. I think we shall all be most interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has to say about that.
I understand that the Report of the Review Body is now before the Prime Minister. I should like to know when a decision on it can be expected; and I would, along with other noble Lords, urge most strongly that it should not be too much delayed, for, like the noble Lord, Lord Segal, 1, as a layman, have been increasingly disturbed lately by the number of sensible, level-headed and dedicated doctors up and down the country who are obviously becoming increasingly alarmed and restive over this matter.
I do not myself think that at the moment the National Health Service, as I have seen suggested, is in any real danger. It would be a terrible tragedy, worth doing anything to prevent, if this were true. There is no doubt that morale among general practitioners is low and is getting lower, and a situation is obviously developing where every effort must be made to improve it, in the interests not only of the doctors but of the patients as well. I know full well what a complex, technical and difficult problem this is, and I hope that the noble Lord can assure us that it is being faced urgently.
I should like also to try to find out from the noble Lord how Her Majesty's Government are approaching the problem of the general shortage of doctors. Are they, for instance, going forward with the late Government's plan to increase the number of places in medical schools, and to build a new medical school at Nottingham? Or are they going to follow the proposal—made by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, among others—for four new medical schools? And, if so, has it yet been possible to ascertain what

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the cost might be? Those are two points connected with the medical profession which I wanted to raise. In view of the time, I will not detain the House any longer on those points. There are, however, two other matters which I believe are causing increasing concern in the country.
The first—and I must apologise that this is some way away from the mainstream of the debate—is the question of ill-health among immigrants. I believe that there is a statistical Question on this point on the Order Paper for to-morrow, and I do not wish to go into that side of it. But we ought to be careful to make it clear that this is not basically a racial or even a colour problem. The British have always had a tradition of tolerance and neighbourliness towards immigrants. Yet we do like to be certain that they are healthy, and also that they can live in conditions where good hygiene; is possible. I think that somebody in Newcastle remarked, and very rightly, that it was less a problem of colour than of plumbing. But I was amazed to read that, according to one estimate, it costs the City of Birmingham authorities something in the region of £60, 000 a year to deal with T.B. among immigrants. Nationally, the figure must be very much higher, and it would be interesting to have an idea of exactly what it is. To my mind, it is an incredible sum. If it could be saved, it would certainly make the Minister's life very much easier, and would also save a great deal of time in relation to the doctors themselves.
I am very glad to welcome the action that has already been taken. I understand that a new X-ray unit for the investigation of suspect immigrants has been, or is about to be, opened at London Airport. Doctors are being increasingly exhorted to be on the alert for infection, and immigrants are now being encouraged, as soon as they arrive in the country, to join the National Health Service and register with a doctor.
I am certain that all these steps will help, but I do not think they will solve the problem entirely. The technical and financial difficulties of screening every immigrant, at every port of entry, are very great. I am not personally convinced that this is the answer. I feel—and this has been suggested elsewhere—that the long-term answer would be for would-be
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immigrants to be screened at their country of origin and issued with a medical certificate which they could present here on arrival. If there were then any doubt about any particular person, he could no doubt be re-examined in this country. I should like to know whether the Government are considering, as a long-term measure, trying to set up a system of this sort by international agreement. Is this not something in which the World Health Organisation might play a useful part? Even if the noble Lord cannot answer these questions to-day, I should be very grateful if he could at some time give me some indication as to the Government's views on this subject.
LORD TAYLOR: I have not quite followed the point. Is it the question of medical investigation in the country of origin?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Yes, as opposed to carrying it out in this country.
I should like now to say a word about the Hospital Service, which, in essence, I suppose, affects more personally and directly every man, woman and child in the country then any other part of the National Health Service. The noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, in a most interesting and stimulating speech, said practically everything there was to be said on the subject, although at one point she told us that she could have gone on for a great deal longer.
The Ten-Year Hospital Plan, which was drawn up by the late Government and revised every year, laid the basis (for the first time, I think) for a sound progression towards an up-to-date and efficient Hospital Service for the whole country. The Plan has certainly been criticised, by noble Lords opposite and by people outside this House, who have been impatient to get more done than was physically and financially possible. But we do not at this moment know what the position is. It is of the greatest importance for the morale of everyone connected with the hospital services to know what the Government intend to do about the plans. There have been rumours in the Press of cuts. I should like to know whether Her Majesty's Government are going ahead, and, if not, are they considering alternatives? When can we expect an announcement about this? I

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believe that the Minister has the subject under review.
There is another point in relation to the Ten-Year Plan which I wish to mention. Here I take a slightly different view from that of my noble friend Lord Auckland, who was pleading for more new hospitals at the expense of upgrading many of the older hospitals. I believe that the Government should resist this temptation. It is tempting to spend your resources on building new, nice-looking hospitals; it is a sign of achievement and they are marvellous places. But it is important to strike the right balance in this regard and to proceed at the same time with a steady programme of upgrading. The late Government did this with success, and I hope that the present Government will continue such a policy in the future.
I have kept your Lordships perhaps too long already and have asked a great many questions, but I have attempted to concentrate on what I believe are some of the more urgent priorities. As this is our first opportunity to find out from the Government how they propose to translate their words into deeds, I feel that the noble Lord will have expected an interrogation, and I hope he will not mind it. I hope even more that he will be able to give us some positive news and not merely tell us that all these matters are still under review.
Of course, anyone who has had the privilege of having something to do with the National Health Service knows that its many achievements are the fruits of years of patient and loyal devotion by all those connected with it in Whitehall and throughout the country. Just as the development of the health services is something for which no political Party can take all the credit, it does, to a great extent, depend on the support and encouragement of the Government in power. That is why I am still a little apprehensive that in the overall pattern of the Government's calculations the National Health Service, and the nation's health in general, possibly does not stand quite so high as I think it should.
The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in our debate last July, a little unfairly, I thought, accused my Party of treating the Ministry of Health as a second-class Ministry. I must say I would not have
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thought that the present Prime Minister's action in demoting the Minister of Health from the Cabinet and scrapping one of his Parliamentary Secretaries savoured very much of what I might call "the V.I.P. treatment", but I hope that this is not indicative of the Government's attitude to the development of the National Health Service as a whole. I shall be only too glad to be told by the noble Lord that my fear about this is unjustified; and I am sure that all your Lordships look forward to hearing what he has to say with great, and indeed critical, interest.
6.40 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am setting myself the task of answering this debate in under 30 minutes, and it has taken nearly 4½ hours to deliver, so if I leave a number of questions unanswered I must apologise at once. I cannot do otherwise, because every speech that we have listened to has been cogent, well argued and full of facts. There has not been a single one which was what might be loosely described as "waffle". Everybody had serious points to raise. It is physically impossible, therefore, to answer all the points raised, so I must try to draw a general picture.
I am, however, a little disappointed in one respect. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, who moved this Motion and to whom we owe a debt, as we always do when he introduces these Motions on health services, gave us a specific subject to consider—namely, ancillary workers. If we just look at his Motion it says:
"To call attention to the Hospital and Medical Services, with particular reference to the shortage of physiotherapists and other ancillary grades; and to move for Papers."
That is fair enough. In this House one can stretch any Motion just as one likes. But I think the debate has been less valuable than it would have been if we had concentrated on one or other aspect, or had not diffused our energies over the whole sphere of the National Health Service. I have to try to answer on the whole sphere of the National Health Service.
Let me begin by saying how grateful I am to have a colleague in the shape of my noble friend Lord Sorensen. It gives me immense pleasure and real support to have him sitting beside me, and to have him deal with most of the

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points—and I think he dealt very well with most of the points—which the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, raised. Lord Sorensen is an old friend, a valued colleague, and I am sure we are all welcoming him very much. I am welcoming him, not because I did not value my noble friend Lord Stonham as a colleague on this subject—I did—but because Lord Sorensen is also going to be my colleague or Commonwealth Relations and Colonial matters. To have somebody to whom I can turn when the burden gets a bit heavy, and somebody who knows these subjects even better than he knows health, if I may say so, is a real relief; and we will try to give your Lordships better service than we have in the past.
The next point is to say a word about the maiden speeches, and there has been a series of very fine maiden speeches. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, has had to go. She gave us a grand and vigorous speech of the kind we should expect, and I was very pleased, also, to see her husband on the steps of the Throne. It is a real pleasure to see my noble friend Lord Segal back; though, my goodness me, he was critical! There was an air of gloom. I came to this debate feeling rather gloomy myself, and as time went on it got gloomier and gloomier. But I became rather mere cheerful, which is a shocking thing to say, but this in fact is what happened. My noble friend Lord Segal pointed out the dire possibilities which could follow all the possible methods of paying doctors, and I am going to come back to that in a minute. But it was a very good analysis.
Then I come to my old friend and former boss Lord Leatherland. I used to work for him when he was news editor of the Daily Herald, and I was the "dog's-body" who did the medical stuff. I always remember that his people used to ring up and make such remarks as, "What do you do if a duck swallows a domino? Is this unusual?" I had to think of five lines to dictate back over the 'phone. Lord Leatherland is, I know, a very devoted public servant. As a matter of fact, due to him as much as to any other single human being, we have growing in Essex a very fine university. So I am delighted to see him here and it is a real pleasure to welcome him.
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Now I come back to the subject matters raised in the debate, and let us start with the Hospital Plan. The Hospital Plan, as the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, thought, is being very carefully examined. I do not think the fundamental principles have been changed, and I agreed with him rather than with his noble friend Lord Auckland, that the right thing to do is not to lay all the stress on new buildings but to improve existing buildings.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, may I just make one point quite clear here? I was not advocating the pulling down of all old, existing hospitals, but there are some which seem to me to be too old to improve on economically. It is those hospitals—and I have pictures here of some of them—to which I was specifically referring.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, of course there are hospitals which could with benefit be pulled down. But, again, one is back to this awful problem of priorities and getting one's priorities right all the time. Time and again the right thing to do is to "make do and mend"; to do the best one can with what exists and have a plan for steady progress and gradual upgrading. Where a new area is developed, there build a new hospital: build as wisely and as well as one can. Here I would say that the general principle of the district hospital, the highly specialised hospital, seems to me to be the right one. It is also right that we should not spend too much money on each hospital that we build Sometimes in the early days of hospital building we did spend too much money, but I think, since the Ministry of Health followed the example, if I may say so, of the Ministry of Education and started to work out functional guidance notes for the building of hospitals, the cost of hospitals is now getting more reasonable.
The noble Lord mentioned the hospital at Hatfield and Welwyn for which he has great affection and for which I must say I have affection, too. I think that is a reasonable and a good department. Yet, once again, he mentioned that it was too small for physiotherapists; there was not enough space for physiotherapists. Whatever we do, there will always be not enough for all we ought to do, and that is one of the facts of life. My noble

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friends were talking about tests for cervical cancer, a very important subject indeed. Yet it is one of the most difficult subjects to decide how to tackle properly, because it requires a great technical skill to read these smears. Nobody knows the right intervals at which to take the smears, and it is even questioned as to whether some of the things that are detected are in fact pre-malignant. It is not easy. These are frightfully difficult technical problems.
My noble friend Lord Leatherland, in a very interesting speech, spoke of the various aspects of cancer research, of various types of electrical devices. I could give your Lordships—and I will see that he is sent—a full statement of the position about all these different devices: about the linear accelerators, about the betatron, about the machine that is being purchased at Guildford, about the work of the Hospital Friends in raising this money, which I for one think is a very fine job—indeed, as he indicated, they raised a great deal of money for this machine—and about the long-term planning for radiotherapy. I think it is not bad planning; I believe it is good planning. I think that the experts who have advised the Ministry of Health have, on balance, done their work as well as human beings can. They have made mistakes; we all make mistakes. But it is a pretty good plan that they have got, and it will provide for a remarkable diffusion of these new devices. But each one has to be decided on and proven. The one at the Churchill Hospital at Oxford is by no means proven. We think it is better than the Swiss machine, the betatron. We are not sure, but it looks as though it is.
Then the noble Lord asked, "What about £10 million?" My Lords, it is a good thing to put a figure on the amount of money that Governments ought to give to particular projects. I remember the stimulation the "mental million" had, and the noble Lord will remember it very well. I once had a scheme for a "mental million" for research. I tried to persuade Her Majesty's Government to give a "mental million" for research. But my noble friend Lord Sorensen and I, with our colleagues from the Medical Research Council, spent a long time yesterday going over the amount of money that was being spent.
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It is of the order of £1 million a year that is being spent by the Government specifically on cancer research; but there are also lots and lots of other moneys being spent on cancer research by the Medical Research Council which you cannot precisely allocate because it is research into the way that cells work, into the way that tissues function and things of that sort. To make an exact computation and an exact calculation of the amount spent is beyond the power and the wit of man.
In exactly the same way, there is a balance about these voluntary bodies. It is comparatively easy in this country to raise money for cancer research, and, in consequence, there are two large bodies for cancer research—the noble Lord mentioned them—which command large funds. Now there are many other worthy research bodies which are less popular (and yet the diseases are in some respects as tragic) and which command very small funds. If the Government start giving money to voluntary bodies which are themselves fund-raising—
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I wonder whether he could address this side of the House as well.
LORD TAYLOR: I am sorry, my Lords. I must apologise to the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian. I will speak louder and into the microphone, and hope that it will bounce back at the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland. If the Government are to give sums of money to voluntary bodies which are engaged in fund-raising, there is the risk all the time that the public will be discouraged from giving to these voluntary bodies because they know that the Government will make up the deficit. It is always a question of balancing up the scales.
The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, used two phrases when he described his thesaurus. Whether, among all these pieces of paper, I can find the one I want, I very much doubt, because I have never had so much paper presented to me for any brief. The noble Viscount's first point, if I remember aright, was shortage. The word "shortage" can be applied to the position of every conceivable kind of person that we can deal with in the Health Service. I can hardly think of a single kind of person of whom one could

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not say that there is a shortage, and of whom one could not say that they ought to be paid more. The second word that the noble Viscount used—and, indeed, a number of other noble Lords used it—was "morale". The noble Viscount shakes his head; he did not use it.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: No, my Lords, I did not.
LORD TAYLOR: Then it was another noble Lord who spoke—in fact, a number of noble Lords did—of low morale. It may indeed have been my noble friend Lord Archibald—I am not sure—but certainly low morale was mentioned. I think that the key to the situation is the morale of all of us, both inside and outside the Hospital Service. Somehow or other we must break the vicious circle. We must all push a little bit harder, if you like. We must all put up with things we do not like. We must all determine that we will make the National Health Service a success, in spite of the disadvantages, difficulties and shortages. We cannot avoid these things. There is a shortage of pharmacists, as the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, described. I will certainly undertake to describe to my right honourable friend—and, indeed, our officers from the Ministry of Health will have heard of them—the strange and bizarre effects that such a shortage produces because of the underpay of hospital pharmacists as opposed to other pharmacists.
We could go through every profession supplementary to medicine and point out the follies and fallacies, the inequality of pay, the fact that somebody is not getting quite as much as somebody else. But, in the last analysis, it is the work that we do, or the work that each person does, that gives us our satisfaction. If we get on with the job, or if they get on with the job, and, of course, try to get a fair, decent and just remuneration, and if we all organise and work hard and try to get a just remuneration for all, it will come right in time. But the matter is so incredibly complicated, the balance is so fine all the time, that the only way to push it over and get it going in the right direction is by raising our own spirits and morale by making a positive attack on it.
As I listened to what my noble friends were saying I felt that this was not quite
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the way we ought to do it. I felt that we ought really to be doing it positively, rather than negatively. I felt we ought to be looking, not at how bad things are, but at how much there is that is good as well—and there is so much that is good as well. I find that it was the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, who spoke of the low state of morale.
My Lords, I have only two or three minutes more, because I am rationing myself quite ruthlessly, but I want to say at once to every noble Lord who has raised these numerous points that we will try to answer them all. I shall try to send them the information that they want. But the Government clearly have not completed formulating their plans; the Review Body has. As the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, thought, the Review Body has reported, and its findings are now being considered. Not only has the Review Body reported, but, equally as important, the Minister will be making a Statement about the Hospital Plan very shortly. So my right honourable friend in another place and his colleague have not been wasting their time. I do not think noble Lords should feel that the Ministry of Health has been downgraded. As anybody who knows the present Minister of Health—and the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, knows him well, and many of us know him well—is aware, we could not have a better man in charge. But Government is getting more complex all the time, and there is, again, a real problem as to how many Ministers we ought to have, and what is the right number. Well, my Lords, we have got to work hard and do the best we can with what we have. We may not always succeed; but we must keep on trying. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, warned me he was going to leave before the end of the debate, and I will therefore write to him.
One has a vast sheaf of paper here with which one might deal, but I will just say one final word about what I think is not perhaps the most important aspect—for they are all important—namely, how to decide how much money should be paid. There is no perfect machinery for doing this. The Whitley Councils are imperfect and the criticisms

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made of them by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, were perfectly reasonable. However you do it—whether you have reviewing bodies, whether you attempt negotiation in a slightly artificial atmosphere because the true employer, as it were, the Treasury, and the ultimate employer, the British public, have no seat on the Council—you are bound to have trouble and difficulties. My right honourable friend the Minister of Health has met the members of the staff side of the Whitley Councils and of the Trades Union Congress to hear what they have to say about these very difficult problems.
My Lords, we shall make improvements. We shall improve this negotiating machinery (which I know we are already improving) as well as such things as the occupational therapy services in both mental and general hospitals, just as we are slowly improving our physiotherapy services and just as we are slowly improving our maternity services. We must watch all the time to see that we are pushing in the right direction and are winning the battle. Fortunately, there are indices such as the infant mortality rate and the maternity mortality rate to keep us informed of these things and to help us to watch how we are doing. It is only by honest and straightforward endeavour, by the application of honest, decent science, and by sticking to it and going on and on, that we shall improve the National Health Service and shall in due course build the kind of National Health Service which we should all love; although even then there will not be perfection.
7.4 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, we have had a most useful and interesting debate. The four maiden speeches we have had have been of outstanding quality. My noble friend Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte made a speech of the characteristic charm and ability which all those who know her would expect. The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, made a most moving speech on this dreaded disease of cancer. I remember a short while ago going to a children's hospital in Derby and seeing a child with cancer of the mouth. It was one of the most tragic sights that I have ever seen. I asked the ward sister how long the child
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had to live, and she replied: "Six weeks". I have seldom been more nearly moved to tears.
The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, took me to task, quite fairly, for the width of this Motion. Quite obviously, this is not a Motion on which long speeches should be made; but I felt that, at a time when the medical services are in the public eye, such a Motion should be made as wide as possible so that all aspects could be considered. I was in some difficulty over its framing; but I am very satisfied with the contributions that have been made. I think that your Lordships' House as a whole has recognised the desperate shortage of doctors and physiotherapists, and there is no doubt whatever that if factory workers worked under the same conditions as some of our doctors there would be still more strikes.
My Lords, I would end by saying once again that this House and the whole nation owe a very great debt of gratitude to all who staff our medical services with, relatively, so little remuneration. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, and I now beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BLIND-LANDING EQUIPMENT FOR CIVIL AIRCRAFT
7.5 p.m.
LORD BRAYE LORD BRAYE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether it can now be stated what progress has been made with electronic blind-landing equipment for civilian transport aircraft; and whether any other type of blind-landing device is under consideration which would help to reduce the numerous delays to passengers and air mail at Airports in the United Kingdom during foggy weather. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I feel that I should apologise for again raising in your Lordships' House the matter of blind-landing equipment for civilian aircraft. But, as your Lordships are aware, there are at times considerable delays to passengers and air mail. If you book a flight anywhere, you are now quite likely to be rung up by the airline and told that they are sorry but the flight has been cancelled. Or, worse, if there is fog you are taken down to the airport, where you sit and wait and look at the fog-bound

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aircraft, only to be; told eventually over a loudspeaker that the plane will not, after all, be able to take off.
I know that a great many experiments have been carried out on devices for blind landing, or landing in fog. There are two main questions that I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government to-day. One concerns the progress being made with electronic landing gear, or automatic landing apparatus, in which experiments are, I believe, being carried out. Secondly, if they have not yet perfected this system (and I think that this might take a very long time; obviously, it must be at least 97 per cent. fool-proof before putting it on a passenger-carrying aircraft—it is impossible to have anything in the air which is completely foolproof. I would ask whether any other form of device to enable aircraft to land safely on a runway in fog is still being worked on by the Ministry of Aviation.
The last time I moved for Papers on this question, there was a lot of talk about putting up a type of Fido running on oil—though not the type of Fido we had in the war. The reply the Government gave me then was that experiments were still being carried out in that direction. I know that this; is a difficult subject, but from the pilot's point of view—and many captains of aircraft confirm this—it seems to me that he would far sooner be able to see the runway when coming in with 60 passengers aboard than to have to depend on electronic apparatus. It is quite true that the pilot may get used to this apparatus; but it may take a very long time, and meanwhile delays continue. I should like to know from Her Majesty's Government how we are getting on and in what fields the experiments are proceeding—that is, provided that the Government can divulge them.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have intervened in your Lordships' House, and I am sure that on this non-controversial, or at any rate politically non-controversial, subject I can expect your Lordships' customary indulgence. I am supported in this by the recollection that when I last spoke for the Government in another place on civil aviation, I received very real moral support from my noble friend Lord Longford, when he was two corri-
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dors and a Central Lobby away. Now he is only two feet away, I am sure I shall have even greater support.
May I also say, having turned up some of the Questions on the subject, how much I admire the tenacity of the noble Lord, Lord Braye, in his pursuit of this subject. I hope he will maintain both his interest and his pressure. I agree with him that if we could get absolute reliability, and ensure that all delays due to bad weather were eliminated, that would be a tremendous step forward for civil air transport. But I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that in our quest for reliability in air services we must never even appear to be overlooking the factor of safety. In part, the time which has been taken in the experiments in these matters is rendered necessary by the very high safety margins which the licensing authorities require.
So far as the present position is concerned, research is being carried out into this problem of all-weather landing at both the Ministry of Aviation's establishments at Farnborough and Bedford, and a number of techniques are being considered which may be used for future generations of aircraft. These techniques include the long-term improvement of the I.L.S., instrument landing system, the improvement of head-up displays, which, as the noble Lord will know, is a system of presenting information to the pilot on the windscreen before him, and also the use of inertial guidance. The possibilities of other landing techniques are kept under review. So far as Fido is concerned, the position under this Government remains the same as that which was expressed in this House to the noble Lord on February 6, 1963, namely, that No 1nstallation of Fido was being considered, either for Heathrow or for any other airport in this country.
Work on the system that the noble Lord mentioned, an electronic automatic landing system, is being carried on as regards both ground and air-borne elements. The experiments are proceeding satisfactorily. Indeed, I, myself, gave them some consumer tests last Monday, and I can endorse the claim that they are proceeding satisfactorily. It is hoped that this automatic landing system will be in operation by the end

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of the 1960s. Meanwhile, partly in order to familiarise pilots and operators, and also in order to establish the complete confidence of the pilots, which is essential in this matter, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, it is planned that the system will be available for use by 1967 on commercial passenger flights at suitably equipped airports in conditions of good visibility and down to present weather limits of operation. It is anticipated that the Trident will be the first civil aircraft in the world to operate on scheduled services with an automatic landing system.
I should add that when these systems are installed, and proven, that will not be the end of the problems. There are still other problems on the ground. There is no point in putting aircraft down to the ground in conditions of fog unless the passengers can be moved. So it will be necessary to have taxi-way guidance, and to ensure that there is complete support of safety services. For example, there was a crash at London Airport when a Viscount came down in fog, and the five engine had difficulty in finding the crash. That kind of thing presents problems which are being considered. I assure the noble Lord that there is no delay in the attention which the present Government are giving to these problems.
LORD BRAYE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his very kind reply.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, while I do not wish to say anything of substance, I should not like this short debate to terminate without congratulations from
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these Benches to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, on a winning first appearance in your Lordships' House. I think that we have gained an admirable recruit. We have also gained someone who knows a great deal about this subject, as his reply this evening has made very clear to your Lordships. I would most sincerely congratulate him on his maiden speech in this House.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much.

GULF OIL REFINING BILL [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day), and read la.
  PROPOSED NEW CITY NEAR BLETCHLEY
  PROPOSED NEW CITY NEAR BLETCHLEY