Sitting of 2 February 1965

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PARLIAMENT (700th ANNIVERSARY)
Mr. Speaker: I have to acquaint the House that I have received a copy of a Resolution passed by the House of Representatives of Oklahoma, with the concurrence of the Senate, in commemoration of the 700th anniversary of the birth of the House of Commons and have had it placed in the Library for inspection by hon. Members.
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL
  To be read a Second time Tomorrow
  BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL
  Read a Second time and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

  BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
  CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL
  COVENT GARDEN MARKET BILL
  FLINTSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (HIGHER FERRY SALTNEY FOOTBRIDGE) BILL
  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
  To be read a Second time Tomorrow

  HOLY TRINITY, SOUTHWARK BILL
  Read a Second time and committed.
  HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL
  To be read a Second time Tomorrow.
  LONDON TRANSPORT BILL
  Read a Second time and committed.
MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL
  MERSEY TUNNEL (LIVERPOOL/WALLASEY) ETC. BILL
  To be read a Second time Tomorrow.
  ROCHESTER BRIDGE BILL
  Read a Second time and committed.
  SAINT ANNE, SOHO BILL
  Read a Second time and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
SAINT MARK, CAMBERWELL BILL
  UNIVERSITY OF LEEDS BILL
  Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Basildon New Town
    Mr. Gardnerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will make a statement about the proposed increase in the population of Basildon new town; and what is his policy regarding the final figure of population.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Richard Crossman): I have asked the development corporation to prepare a technical study showing whether and to what extent the population could be increased beyond the present planned figure of 106,000. I can make no statement until I have received and considered its report.
    Mr. Gardner: Can the Minister say whether it is his intention, if there is to be an increase in the population of the new town, that this increase of population should be achieved by an invasion of the green belt areas surrounding the new town of Basildon and the adjoining towns of Wickford and Billericay? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a considerable fear that any dramatic expansion will inevitably be accompanied by such an invasion, and can he assure the House that no such invasion will take place?
    Mr. Crossman: I am aware of the anxiety felt, and the corporation has been asked to indicate to me how the present designated area could be replanned to take more people. I have asked the corporation also to consult with the local authorities and statutory undertakers in preparing its report, and these consultations will take place.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is the Minister aware that many of the east London boroughs, particularly East and West Ham, would like to expand into Basildon because it would politically help the hon. arid learned Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) to lose his seat?
    Mr. Gardnerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will make a statement about the steps he proposes to take in order to transfer all the assets, including houses, shops, offices and land, in the new town of Basildon to the Basildon Urban District Council.
    Mr. Crossman: Basildon new town is still a long way from completion and the question what should ultimately happen to the assets does not yet arise. But I am prepared to consider whether any change should be made in the respective responsibilities of the local authority and the development corporation as the town grows bigger, and I have asked both bodies to give me their views.
    Mr. Gardner: Is the Minister aware that when the Prime Minister was Leader of the Opposition in July last year he wrote a letter to the Socialist leader of the Basildon Urban District Council promising that a Labour Government would honour the pledge given in the New Towns Act, 1946, by providing for the transfer of each new town to the ownership and control of the appropriate local authority? Can the Minister give an assurance that no such transfer will take place?
    Mr. Grossman: I doubt whether the hon. and learned Member listened carefully to my reply. There is no prospect in the immediate future of the completion of this town, and so of the problem of turnover arising. I have suggested, however, that as the town grows consultations should take place between the Corporation and the local authority as to what form of devolution is possible and practical between the two.

    Private Roads (Use)
    Mr. Loveysasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will consider reviewing the present legal rights of developers to use private roads leading to development sites, in view of the damage to such roads being caused by them.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. James MacColl): No, Sir. My right hon. Friend does not think this is the right approach to the problem the hon. Member has in mind.
    Mr. Loveys: Does not the hon. Member agree that the position is most unsatisfactory in cases where developers do great damage to private roads which are adjacent to the properties that they are developing but are under no legal obligation to put back those roads into a good state, or to compensate the owners in any way whatsoever?
    Mr. MacColl: It is not for me to express any opinion on the legal responsibilities. As for the practical responsibilities, probably the best answer that I can give is to say that as soon as possible these private roads should be made up and adopted by the local authorities.

    Public Parks
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will set up a committee to investigate the steps to be taken to encourage the use of public parks, particularly in cities, by a greater percentage of the population.
    Mr. MacColl: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend does not think a committee would help. Local authorities know the local needs and are best able to judge how the public may most readily be encouraged to use these parks.
    Mr. Taylor: Does not the Minister agree that the ever-increasing pressure on public land and other open spaces and the ever-increasing dangers on the roads make it more important than ever that more use should be made of public parks? Is he further aware that in some cities the lack of imagination of local authorities and the unnecessary restrictions enforced by them are limiting the use of public parks? Should not the Minister at least give some guidance to local authorities on this matter, if he is not prepared to set up a committee?
    Mr. MacColl: A very good pamphlet on this subject has been produced by the London County Council, which has been outstandingly good in the use of its parks. A circular was issued jointly

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    by my Ministry and the Department of Education under the previous Government. I agree that it is most desirable that full use should be made of the parks. It is a question of the initiative and enterprise of good local authorities.

    Abandoned Scrap Metal
    Sir R. Russellasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware that much scrap metal, in the form of old bedsteads, bath tubs, bicycles, perambulators, broken toys and other things, is to be found under hedges and in streams and ditches close to urban areas in many parts of the country; and if he will seek power to encourage the recovery of this metal.
    Mr. MacColl: This material probably costs more to recover than it is worth as scrap. But my right hon. Friend welcomes action by local authorities to deal with the dumping of rubbish as recommended in the Department's Circular No. 15/60, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.
    Sir R. Russell: Does not the Minister agree that this is a colossal waste of material, even if collection is expensive? Will he also add motors cars to the list? They have been discovered in great abundance since I tabled this Question. Will he encourage local authorities to do something about the matter, rather than merely to write letters?
    Mr. MacColl: We had an interesting discussion of this matter on an Adjournment Motion moved by the hon. Member for Hexham (Sir R. Speir) a few weeks ago. I would commend to the hon. Member the discussion that took place on that Motion if he wants more information as to what can be done. I agree that the more local authorities improve their cleansing services the easier it will be to prevent this abuse of roads by the deposit of refuse.
    Mr. Lipton: Would it not help if my hon. Friend circularised local authorities, some of whom are very choosy about the refuse that they collect from private houses? Would it not help if either local authorities or the refuse collectors employed by them were given definite instructions to remove all household refuse from the houses from which they collect?
    Mr. MacColl: We are hoping soon to issue a circular on the disposal of old motor vehicles. On the more general question, at the moment there is a Departmental working party on refuse collection. When it has completed its inquiries we hope to get in touch further with local authorities on the matter.
    Mr. Corfield: In the light of experience, will the hon. Member consider whether it would be right to extend the provisions of the Litter Act so that it covers the leaving of litter on private as well as public properties?
    Mr. MacColl: That would require legislation, of which I do not see much hope in the near future.

    Town Centre Redevelopment Proposals
    Mr. Ogdenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the average length of time between the holding of a public inquiry on town centre redevelopment proposals and the publication of his decision.
    Mr. MacColl: Fourteen months. Where, exceptionally, a second inquiry has to be held the average time taken is about twice the normal average.
    Mr. Ogden: Will the Minister use his influence to see that the new regional planning boards help to shorten this procedure? Will he give particular attention to the situation in Middleton, a non-county borough in Lancashire, where a public inquiry was held on 14th January last year, but where no final results have yet materialised? Will he give this question special attention, since the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby happens to be the Chairman of the Middleton Town Centre Redevelopment Committee, and his municipal term of office expires in May this year?
    Mr. MacColl: The citizens of Middleton will regret the departure of my hon. Friend, and the exercise of his responsibility. It may help him if I tell him that after the inquiry was held in January a number of modifications were made to the scheme, and that those were sent to the county council on 4th November last. We are now awaiting its conclusions on those suggestions.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: Will the Minister give thought to extending the system of inquiry by letter, which cuts out a lot of time involved in bringing witnesses and having to discuss the question at the normal public inquiry? If the present system of statements by letter were extended so that it was more comprehensive it might save a lot of time. Will the Minister give thought to a possible extension of this system?
    Mr. MacColl: My right hon. Friend is giving particular and immediate attention to the problem of shortening the whole of the procedure in the matter of planning appeals and similar questions. But many of these schemes of central area redevelopment are extremely complicated. There is a great deal of human emotion, and the schemes are violently contested. I would not have thought that they were the sort of cases which could be resolved by an exchange of letters. I would have thought that the publicity of an inquiry was the fairest way.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: In the Minister's reconsideration will he bear in mind the need for giving objectors adequate notice of plans of this sort? In other countries one is required to give long notice if one wishes to build a house or a block of flats, so that people may have an opportunity to object. In this country there is now a tendency for objectors not to hear of these plans until it is too late—when a Ministerial decision has been taken. Will the rights of objectors be preserved?
    Mr. MacColl: My right hon. Friend his been shot at for taking too long in considering objections. He is now being criticised for not giving enough time to objectors. If he adopted the hon. Member's proposal it would tend to hold up proceedings. This illustrates the difficulty of the matter. One has to hold a balance between the understandable anxieties of the public and the importance of getting a move on with these proposals. My right hon. Friend's unhappy duty is to hold that balance.

    Oxford and Cambridge Colleges (Rates)
    Mr. Woodhouseasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) whether he will renew his pre- 870
    decessor's undertaking with regard to any jointly agreed scheme which the colleges and City of Oxford might put forward as an alternative basis of assessment of the rate liability of the Oxford colleges;
    (2) when he will announce the outcome of his dicussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the possibility of special grants being made to Oxford and Cambridge colleges through the University Grants Committee in lieu of rates.
    Mr. Crossman: As the hon. Member knows, I have the question of the colleges' rates under consideration. It is complex and I cannot give a date for announcing a decision. I will, of course, take account of any proposals that are put to me, but cannot commit myself at this stage to any particular line of approach.
    Mr. Woodhouse: I appreciate the difficulty of the Minister, to which, indeed, I drew attention in public on many occasions when his supporters in Oxford were claiming that there was no difficulty at all. May I ask whether he recollects that exactly a year ago the General Secretary of the Labour Party gave an undertaking that under a Labour Government there would be early discussions with a view to finding a solution to the problem on precisely the lines set out in Question No. 8? May I ask how long a delay he considers compatible with the term "early"?
    Mr. Crossman: I think that I gave an assurance 30 years ago, when leading the Labour councillors on the Oxford City Council, that this grievous burden should be considered. The longer we wait the more difficult it becomes. All I can say is that the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well how delicate is this matter. Consultations are taking place. If I may say so, I have, in memory, some sympathy with the ratepayers, but we have to face facts. We have to keep the colleges like any other charitable institutions and complications would follow from unilateral action of any kind.
    Sir H. Kerr: May I ask the Minister to bear in mind that the problem relating to college rates applies equally to Cambridge and that the extra burden borne by the ratepayers has caused most undesirable friction between the city and the university?
    Mr. Crossman: I was aware that there would be some contact or connection between the two problems.
    Mr. Woodhouse: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter again.

    Synthetic Detergents
    Mr. George Craddockasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government, in view of the latest progress report of the Standing Technical Committee on synthetic detergents, if he will take steps to compel manufacturers of detergents to use a softer basic material, which will more readily be decomposed by bacteria in sewage processes and rivers.
    Mr. MacColl: The latest report records substantial progress in the production of a softer detergent and there should be further progress following the manufacturers' undertaking to cease using hard-base materials by the end of last year. My right hon. Friend thinks it is too soon to consider compulsion but he is keeping an open mind.
    Mr. Craddock: Will the Minister be good enough to take the strongest possible measures to compel manufacturers to use this softer material which he has described? I think that this will have to be soon. Does he agree that it will have to be resolved at the top level in order to get a solution?
    Mr. MacColl: I think that there are two points about this. First of all, the softer material is only now available in sufficient quantities for experiments to be undertaken to see how effective it will finally be. Secondly, if we were to introduce compulsion too soon, the danger is that it would become accepted as standard, whereas what we want to do is to see a steady improvement as technical progress goes on producing better and better materials for detergents. I do not think that this moment is the best time for compulsion.

    Retirement Pensioners (Rates)
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will introduce legislation designed to relieve all retirement pensioners from any increase in rates in respect of houses occupied by them between date of receipt of pension and date of death.
    Mr. MacColl: I must ask the hon. Member to await the outcome of the Government's examination of local government finance.
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    But my right hon. Friend's first reaction to his suggestion is that it would produce rather arbitrary results.
    Mr. King: Does the Minister agree that when a pensioner retires he arranges his affairs in accordance with his known and thereafter unalterable income and that his grievance is not so much at the level of his pension as at the constant inflation of his expenses—often by the Government—and that while he may arrange or rearrange some part of his affairs, the one part which he cannot rearrange is the house in which he lives, because there is nowhere else for him to go? Does not this constitute an injustice which the Minister should put right?
    Mr. MacColl: I think that the evidence undoubtedly is that the sector of the community most badly affected by rates are old people who are living on fixed incomes. I would not quarrel with that at all. The Allen Report indicates that that is so and will be seen to indicate it when it is published. The difficulty about the hon. Member's proposal is that it would make a very arbitrary distinction between the people who had reached their retirement age when the rate was fixed and those who reached it shortly afterwards. The problem is difficult and my right hon. Friend is examining the whole question.
    Sir J. Eden: When may we expect the publication of the Allen Report? Shall we have to await the publication of this Report before we get any views expressed by the Government on the problem of rating and rate increases, or shall we have to wait until the whole local government review has taken place? When shall we have some decision from the Government?
    Mr. MacColl: The publication of the Allen Report is the subject of another Question. My right hon. Friend's review is continuing and will continue. It is not waiting for the publication of the Report. As the hon. Member knows well, from his experience in the last Session, there has been a good deal of delay in waiting for these reports. It is only now that we are able to push on with the inquiry.

    Housing Estates (Children's Play Spaces)
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the dissatisfaction caused by

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    the failure of local authority and private housing estates to provide areas to be set aside for children's play; and if he will take steps in respect of estates of appropriate size to make this obligatory.
    Mr. MacColl: Adequate provisions for children's play space is important and the Department has issued advice on how provision can best be made. My right hon. Friend does not, however, think it would be sensible to make provision obligatory.
    Mr. Shepherd: If it is the case that these recommendations are not being adhered to, and that highly unsatisfactory situations are being created, why does not the Parliamentary Secretary think it advisable to take more specific action?
    Mr. MacColl: I am a little surprised at the number of occasions upon which my right hon. Friend is being pressed to order local councils what to do. It seems to me that in good local government the proper thing to do is to give them standards and advise them and encourage them to achieve those standards. That is what my right hon. Friend is doing. The exact relationship of play space and housing varies enormously from place to place.
    Mr. Snow: Is my hon. Friend aware that this problem is a developing problem in the rural areas, where there has been, in recent years, a very great increase in heavy motor traffic through small villages? Some of these villages are extremely dangerous. Would he consider issuing a circular to local authorities, possibly at county level also, to see whether they could not examine the machinery by which consideration of play areas and the putting into effect of playgrounds could be speeded up?
    Mr. MacColl: "Homes For Today and Tomorrow" recommended a standard for assessing play spaces but my right hon. Friend does not regard that as the last word. We are watching the position and we shall try to improve the standard of provision by advice whenever we can. I do not think that the time is yet ripe for any sort of directive or compulsion.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is it not a fact that this shortcoming applies to private housing estates as well, and have local authorities
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    no power to compel a private housing estate to provide the necessary playing facilities?
    Mr. MacColl: The local planning authority could make this a condition of giving planning permission.

    Kent (Population)
    Mr. Costainasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government to what extent he has taken into account the Kent County Council's views on the importance of incidence of population between East and West Kent, referred to in observation (e) of the letter addressed to his Department by the County Council on 26th June, 1964.
    Mr. Crossman: The County Council's proposals would imply a considerable movement of Kent people from one side of the county to the other, and I am not convinced that this is right. I shall, however, be having further discussions with the Council before long.
    Mr. Costain: Did the Minister hear his Parliamentary Secretary say in answer to an earlier Question that good local government requires to have some authority of its own? Is not his suggestion, that he should overrule the County Council, contrary to his colleague's statement?
    Mr. Crossman: The Kent proposals were put up in a criticism of the South-East Plan. I pointed out that I wondered whether they appreciated that if they had their way, 30,000 people would have to be moved from West Kent into East Kent. I doubted whether they would want to go. However, I shall, in the near future, be having consultations with the Home Counties about the whole problem of overspill and the green belt, and I hope to discuss and thrash out these figures with the Council then.

    Planning Decisions
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government on how many occasions he has consulted the Minister of Land and Natural Resources before coming to a decision on a planning matter; and what proportion this represents of the decisions he has reached on such matters since 16th October, 1964.
    Mr. Crossman: My right hon. Friend and I are in constant contact over policies relating to the supply of land. With regard to particular planning decisions I do, of course, consult my right hon. Friend on cases involving national or regional planning considerations, and in particular on any case affecting a National Park or other like area of countryside of sea-coast.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Would the right hon. Gentleman now be good enough to answer my Question, which was as to the number of occasions on which he has consulted his right hon. Friend?
    Mr. Crossman: The right hon. Gentleman was in Government long enough to know that he may ask me whether I consult but that to ask me to give him a list of occasions when I consult is an impertinence which I do not take seriously.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that characteristically courteous answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that his answer makes it clearer than most of his answers do that there has been no such consultation, and that in those circumstances his answer makes a nonsense of the Prime Minister's statement that the Minister of Land and Natural Resources has responsibility for decisions on the use of land?
    Mr. Crossman: The implications which the right hon. Gentleman draws from my answer—
    Sir H. Nicholls: On a point of order. Since the Table approved a Question which contained the words "on how many occasions", is one to presume that the Table connived at impertinence?
    Mr. Speaker: One of the good fortunes of the Table is that they do not have to discuss such matters.
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Crossman: If the House would like me to continue my answer, I would only say to the right hon. Gentleman that the implications which he drew from my answer are as irrelevant as many of the implications which he draws from answers in the political world.
    Mr. Graham Page: Does not the necessity for consultation between two
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    Ministries mean that this will lengthen still further the time for these town planning decisions to be made? Would the Minister consider hiving these off to an independent tribunal, by using the powers in the 1947 Act?
    Mr. Crossman: I can assure the hon. Member that we are cutting the time of consultation as short as possible.

    Local Government Finance (Committee's Report)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he intends to introduce early legislation based on the Report of the Allen Committee.
    Sir J. Edenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether, in the light of the Allen Committee's Report, he proposes to make any changes in the rating system before next April so as to alleviate those areas which have been especially hard hit as a result of revaluation and subsequent increases in local government expenditure.
    Mr. Crossman: The Report will provide valuable material for the Government's examination of local government finance and they will not delay, when this is concluded, in bringing forward legislation. But is must be obvious that legislation could not be in time to affect next year's rates.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Is the Minister aware that he is being most tortoise-like in publishing the Report? Is the Minister aware that his Parliamentary Secretary has referred to this Report? Is it not high time that it was published?
    Mr. Crossman: It is indeed high time, and that is why, as I explained on the last occasion that I was asked, we are hurrying on with it. As I told the House before, there are a number of very complicated statistical tables which have to be published. I can assure the hon. Member that there is not a great deal of political capital to be drawn by either side from this Report.
    Sir J. Eden: Has not the Minister had the Report in his hands since his appointment, or at any rate for some months? What is holding up the publication of the Report itself? May we have an assurance that, together with

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    the publication of the Report, will come some White Paper from the Government indicating their assessment of its views?
    Mr. Crossman: I replied before that it would be an impertinence to the Committee to publish the Report without the statistical tables. Those statistical tables are a most important element in the Report. I do not know why I should have to say that once again to hon. Members.

  HOUSING

    Mortgages (Interest Rates)
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is aware that Her Majesty's Government's policy not to introduce legislation during this Parliamentary Session on the subject of interest rates for mortgages has caused uncertainty amongst those contemplating house purchase; and whether he will give an assurance that any major design to reduce interest rates shall apply to all persons repaying mortgages and not just those taking up new mortgages.
    Mr. Ian Gilmourasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proposals he has made to the Building Societies Association with a view to enabling its members to reduce mortgage rates.
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proposals he has for alleviating the high cost of mortgages to young married couples.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloydasked the
    Minister of Housing and Local Government what proposals he has for alleviating the high cost of mortgages to young married couples.
    Mr. Dudley Smithasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now take steps to ensure the reduction of current mortgage rates to 3 or 4 per cent.
    Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress he is making in the discussions he is having with a view to providing for lower interest rates on house mortgages.
    Mr. Fisherasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action he proposes to take to help home owners, in the light of the higher mortgage interest rates announced by the Building Societies Association.
    Mr. Danceasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he expects to announce details of low interest loans to house purchasers.
    Mr. Crossman: It remains the Government's intention to take action as early as practicable to reduce the burden falling on house purchasers. In carrying out their social programme the Government decided that priority must be given to measures for the relief of the old and the sick. As I have already informed the House, I also wish first to complete the review of housing subsidies and finance. It will therefore not be possible to introduce legislation on house purchase this Session. Preparatory work is proceeding, but I am not yet in a position to give details of the proposals which the Government will be making.
    Mr. Walker: Will the right hon. Gentleman now consider answering my Question, whether the legislation which will be introduced next Session will apply to all those involved with mortgages or just to those taking out new mortgages?
    Mr. Crossman: This is one of the questions we are considering. All I would say is that the second alternative is not excluded.
    Mr. Gilmour: In view of the fact that the high interest rate is a direct result of Government policy, would not it have been open to the Government to change their policy instead of abusing the building societies?
    Mr. Crossman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He has put to me fairly what we are trying to do. He is quite right. The proper attitude to high interest rates is to get them down and not, in this emergency, to tinker with legislation. We want a permanent solution to the problem of interest rates. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion. The best thing to do is to get the interest rates down.
    Mr. Ridsdale: In view of the pledge of the Labour Party at the last election, can the Minister say what would be the

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    cost of reducing the mortgage rate to 3 per cent.?
    Mr. Crossman: The hon. Gentleman knows quite well that that was not a pledge in the manifesto—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—I remember quite clearly. We are pledged, as a party, to help house purchasers with their interest rates. We shall do so and there is, therefore, no calculation to make, since we gave no specific figure of the reduction.
    Mr. Lloyd: With regard to the reference to 3 per cent. made by the Minister's colleague, the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, shall we soon hear from the Prime Minister that he has no responsibility at all for this—like Leyton?
    Mr. Crossman: I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he might put the question to my right hon. Friends the First Secretary and the Prime Minister. I make this reply to him. I find it very strange that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who for 13 years under a Tory Government watched interest rates for house purchasers rising steadily, should have been so rapidly converted by their 100 days of opposition into ardent advocates of what we have been advocating for years and what we shall, of course, do—which is to lower the interest rates to house purchasers.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: May I ask whether the Minister is aware that a significant number of otherwise pro-Tory electors in key marginal constituencies voted for his party at the last election purely because of the pledge that the mortgage rate would be reduced to 3 per cent. given by the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he owes it to these poor miserable people to take action now, to make sure that this is one pledge which is not broken?
    Mr. Crossman: Let me repeat to the hon. Gentleman what I said before. We are going to honour our pledges with the proper priorities—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"]—and we have already honoured a major pledge to the old and to the sick which we promised would come first. We made perfectly clear that this was a five-year programme and there was no question of doing everything in
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    the first Session, let alone in the first three months. I will say to the hon. Gentleman that he will find that these people are going to have these pledges honoured to them, and they will respect us for doing so in the right order.
    Mr. Fisher: In view of the preface to "The New Britain"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—
    Mr. Loughlin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order to quote from a document at Question Time?
    Mr. Speaker: It is not in order to quote verbatim from a document in a question.
    Mr. Fisher: May I put it in this way? Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel a certain embarrassment in postponing to the indefinite future the keeping of his party's election promise because, in the light of Leyton and Nuneaton, if the right hon. Gentleman does not honour it now he may not be able to keep the promise at all?
    Mr. Crossman: So far from postponing this to the indefinite future, I am now actively engaged in sorting out the alternatives and in preparing legislation. There will be no postponement to the indefinite future. These are plans which will be carried out. I will say this, that those people opposite who are chiefly responsible for the high rates of interest have no right to complain.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his failure to give the assurance asked for in Question No. 9 must inevitably discourage young couples from taking out mortgages for the time being, because otherwise they might find themselves saddled with higher rates of interest than is necessary? Is that the intention of the Minister? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that his remark about fulfilling pledges in due order might carry weight if rates of interest had remained constant, but that there is an air of cynical detachment about this Government presiding over an increase in these rates in the face of their declared pledge to reduce them?
    Mr. Crossman: There is actually no evidence whatever, accordinig to reports from building societies, of any falling off in the numbers of those who wish to become house purchasers. It is very

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    striking that the demand has been sustained despite the high interest rates. I should like to get the rates down. I repeat what I said before, that really it is intolerable that hon. Members opposite, who are responsible for creating the conditions under which we had to raise the Bank Rate, should start talking as if they had nothing whatever to do with it.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: I look forward to the early introduction of cheap loans, but is it not odd that the building societies have increased their borrowing rates by ¼ per cent. and raised their lending rates by¾ per cent.?
    Mr. Crossman: I repeat, in answer to my hon. Friend, what I think the Prime Minister said a few days ago: "Whatever they did they claimed to do it because of the Bank Rate and I hope that they are going to take it down again as quickly as they put it up."
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon Gentleman aware, in view of his remark about the intolerable nature of those who remind him of his election pledges, that those pledges were given with a full knowledge of the circumstances by himself and his right hon. Friends, and that it cuts no ice at all to follow what is now the normal practice of trying to blame someone else for this Government's failure?
    Mr. Crossman: I repeat once again that our election pledges were a five-year programme. The Opposition are now trying to make party political capital out of the fact that the whole of the programme has not been done in three months. That is plainly ridiculous. It is quite clear that the average elector, when he studies this kind of party political attack, will begin to realise the insincerity of those who make it.
    Mr. Peter Walker: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that Answer, beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Landlord and Tenant Legislation (Holiday Industry)
    Mr. Blakerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what consultations he proposes to have with the holiday industry before introducing permanent legislation on the relations between landlord and tenant.
    Mr. Crossman: I will see a deputation from the holiday industry shortly if the hon. Member and his hon. Friends would care to arrange it.
    Mr. Blaker: While I welcome that reply, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman recalls that in the debate on his temporary Bill he conceded that that Bill raised a problem for the holiday industry which he had not been able to solve, although he had had no consultations with the industry? Will he give an assurance that this time the consultations will be more than a formality?
    Mr. Crossman: A Minister could, after all, not meet a back bencher further than I met the hon. Member in my original Answer. We shall have the discussions, and I think that I shall be able to remove their alarm.

    Standard Improvement Grants (Electrical Installations)
    Mr. Peter Walkerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will recommend local authorities to provide standard improvement grants for the improvement and replacement of electrical installations.
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what representations he has received from the Electrical Association for Women with regard to the inclusion in local authority standard improvement grants for the cost of replacement of electrical installations which have aged to the point of being potentially dangerous; and what reply he has made.
    Sir J. Edenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will authorise the local authority standard improvement grant to householders to include grants for replacing electrical installations which have aged to the point of being potentially dangerous.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Robert Mellish): My right hon. Friend has received a number of representations. Standard grants are designed to provide basic amenities lacking in older houses, not to renew existing equipment as it wears out. This is maintenance and is a normal responsibility of ownership.
    Mr. Walker: Will the right hon. Gentleman examine this again, particularly from the point of view of the danger factor involved? Is he aware that a considerable danger exists in a badly wired house? Would he give further consideration to this matter?
    Mr. Mellish: We take the point. We realise that some of this repair and renewal is essential in many houses. But the hon. Member knows that his own party, when in Government only last year, amended the standard grant legislation. It was not then thought necessary to include the sort of provision for which he is asking, and we do not think that it is necessary now.

    PRESIDENT DE GAULLE AND DR. ERHARD (TALKS)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister what discussions he has had with representatives of the Federal Government of Germany and General de Gaulle in the month of January; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I was able, on the occasion of their presence in London for Sir Winston Churchill's funeral, to have short but useful talks with President de Gaulle and Dr. Erhard.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the Prime Minister aware that we shall all seek to encourage him and shall give him every encouragement in any action which he takes which seeks to promote the most cordial relations with France?
    The Prime Minister: I think that there is a general desire on both sides of the Channel to see that improvement in relations, and I hope to have something further to say in a particular concrete point on this later in the afternoon.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: While welcoming what the Prime Minister said about the desirability of improving our relations with France, may I ask him whether he took advantage of General de Gaulle's recent presence in London to undo some of the damage which he did by his unnecessary proposals for an atomic nuclear force and his ill-considered rejection of a European deterrent?
    The Prime Minister: I did not know that a European deterrent was the policy of the Conservative Party, but we are always willing to learn. We may hear that later in the afternoon. My impression of my discussion with General de Gaulle was that he was in no sense influenced by the propaganda of the hon. Member or other hon. Members.

    PRIME MINISTER OF U.S.S.R. (VISIT)
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Prime Minister what arrangements have been made for the forthcoming visit to this country of the Prime Minister of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Mr. Ioan L. Evansasked the Prime Minister what arrangements he has made with the Premier of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with a view to a conference between them.
    The Prime Minister: As I told the House on the 16th December, Mr. Kosygin has accepted my invitation to visit this country. The precise date is being agreed through diplomatic channels.
    Mr. Campbell: Following what appeared to happen on television during the recent visit of a Scandinavian Prime Minister, will the Soviet Prime Minister at any stage be invited to join members of the Cabinet in publicly singing the Red Flag? Secondly, in order to avoid any risk of an incident on this occasion, will the right hon. Gentleman restrain the enthusiasm for dialectics of his colleague the First Secretary of State?
    The Prime Minister: Diligent researches on my part in quite a number of visits to Moscow in the past have established that the tune to which the hon. Member is referring is totally unknown in Moscow. [An HON. MEMBER: "Did you sing it?"] I did not sing it there. An attempt to pick it out with one finger on a rather out-of-tune piano in the National Hotel established a very strong resistance to my playing a well-known American folk tune with a number of animadversions on Irish deviationism.
    Mr. Evans: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that his efforts are greatly appreciated in the country and does he realise that he has done more in 100 days than the Conservatives did in 5,000 days?
    Sir C. Osborne: When the Soviet Prime Minister arrives in this country, if it were possible would the Prime Minister try to make arrangements for him to address hon. Members on both sides of the House in a Committee Room upstairs?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think that would be an extremely useful proposal. I hope that it would be possible to fit it into the Soviet Prime Minister's timetable.
    Mr. Ioan L. Evansasked the Prime Minister if, when he meets the Premier of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, he will discuss the possibility of calling a summit conference between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United States of America and Great Britain.
    The Prime Minister: I cannot anticipate the subjects which may be discussed during my talks with the Soviet Prime Minister.
    Mr. Evans: When this meeting is held, will my right hon. Friend consider making proposals for a reduction in military expenditure in view of the crippling effect that this is having on our economy?
    The Prime Minister: I think that one of the most important questions which the whole House has agreed should be discussed at the earliest opportunity, both with our allies in N.A.T.O. and of course in any East-West discussion, is the prevention of the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I imagine that this would be a very important subject for discussion and I would feel also that the question, over a period of time, of a reduction of forces and weapons on both sides of the Iron Curtain is something which is of mutual interest to both East and West.

    ELECTORAL LAW
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in the inter-party discussions on electoral reform.
    Mr. Gowerasked the Prime Minister whether he will now make a statement arising from the inter-party consideration of possible changes in electoral law and procedure.
    The Prime Minister: I hope to be in a position to make a statement about this very shortly.
    Mr. Hamilton: Would my right hon Friend indicate that when he makes that statement he will be able to announce a successful conclusion to the negotiations, because there are very many abuses in the present electoral law which need remedying?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that when I make my announcement I shall be able to announce a conclusion on all these questions. I think that it is the general view of the House that with your good will, Mr. Speaker, there should be consideration of these matters through a Speaker's Conference? There have been some discussions on this question, but we have to have further discussions with right hon. Members opposite before we are in a position to make a proposal to the House.
    Mr. Gower: With regard to one important aspect of this question, does the Prime Minister agree that it seems unreasonable that thousands of people should be disfranchised simply because of holiday arrangements made before the announcement of an election, which arrangements cannot easily be broken?
    The Prime Minister: I have no doubt that that is amongst the questions that will be considered by a conference organised under your chairmanship, Mr. Speaker. There were some 29 or 30 other proposals which we felt were inimical to the working of our democracy, which we put repeatedly to right hon. Members opposite when they were the Government, and which I think will also fall to be considered.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is it the policy of the Government to resist any attempt on the part of private Members to improve electoral law until this comprehensive review has been completed?
    The Prime Minister: I understand that the hon. Gentleman has a Bill. I think that we had better wait and see what happens to it when he moves it in the House.
    Mr. Kershaw: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that the system of election recently used at Leyton seems to be a pretty good one?

    SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS (EMPLOYMENT)
    Sir Richard Glynasked the Prime Minister what steps he is taking to ensure that the scientists and engineers, who will become redundant as a result of his proposed reduction in the existing programme of research and development on weapons, change over to civil industry in this country in preference to continuing their present work overseas on behalf of other countries.
    The Prime Minister: Until the review is complete it is not possible to say what redeployment of scientists and engineers will be involved. Meanwhile, the Departments concerned with scientific research and the technological drive in industry are pressing ahead with plans for extending research in the civil field, particularly in export industries.
    Sir Richard Glyn: Can the House assume from this Answer that the Government are taking no steps whatever in this regard? Is the Prime Minister aware that his Government's policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—no, I am not reading, with respect to the Prime Minister. Is the Prime Minister aware that his Government's policy has created the maximum of uncertainty amongst aircraft workers in this country, that they are exposed to offers of £60 a week plus £40 overtime, making £100 a week, to transfer their skills to overseas countries, and that, if the Government, having created this uncertainty, are doing absolutely nothing to retain these skilled workers in this country, they are promoting a brain drain of the most excessive and dangerous form?
    The Prime Minister: I hope, Sir, as I said yesterday, if I catch your eye later in the afternoon, to deal with the whole problems raised in the aircraft industry, problems raised by the facts, by the cost, and by the time scale of some of the projects which were in force.
    Mr. Peter Emery: Does the Prime Minister realise that there are considerable rumours at Aldermaston about mass redundancy at Aldermaston? Will he give some assurance, as indeed his colleagues gave assurances before the election, that there will not be redundancies at Aldermaston?
    The Prime Minister: I shall be quite prepared to make a statement on Aldermaston if the hon. Gentleman will table a Question about Aldermaston.

    RETIREMENT PENSIONS (INCREASES)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Prime Minister on what date he received a letter from Glasgow Corporation on retrospective payment of increases in pensions to aged persons; and whether he intends acceding to their request.
    The Prime Minister: On 11th January. The reply which has been sent refers to the detailed explanation of the reasons why it is not possible to make retrospective payment of the increases, which was given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance when she saw representatives of the Corporation in Glasgow on 30th December.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of that reply, would my right hon. Friend consider ensuring that at the point of payment the pension will have the value which it had when it was decided to increase it?
    Hon. Members: Oh.
    The Prime Minister: The increase in the pension which the House has approved, on the initiative of the Government, is the biggest increase in the pension since 1946 and, though a number of prices have risen and a large number of prices were rising before the election, I think that my hon. Friend will find that when the pension is paid, in real terms it will still be by far the most substantial pension that we have given the old-age pensioners.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will the Prime Minister ascertain from his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health how much money the old-age pensioners will save through the abolition of prescription charges?

    INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION YEAR
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister what steps he proposes to take to ensure national observance

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    of the International Co-operation Year in 1965, the twentieth year of the United Nations.
    The Prime Minister: Her Majesty's Government fully support the aims and cbjectives of International Co-operation Year, which has evoked a widespread response in this country. A non-governmental committee has been set up, with Government support, under the chairmanship of my noble Friend Lord Kennet, and the Government have made a grant of £10,000 towards its administrative expenses. The Committee will be issuing details of the very full programme of activities it has arranged. This includes a national publicity campaign to focus public attention on international co-operation.
    Mr. Henderson: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that all those who strongly support the declared intentions of Her Majesty's Government to seek to strengthen the authority and influence of the United Nations will welcome the small steps that are being taken in connection with this proposal?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Fell: I wonder what influence the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] May I ask the Prime Minister if he will use every endeavour to ensure that there is some international co-operation within the United Nations to try to solve their financial crisis?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think all of us, or most of us, feel that is extremely important. If my memory serves me right, I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman was quite so helpful in this matter at the time of the peacekeeping operations in the Katangan affair which has caused the financial crisis.
    Mr. Fell: In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I shall beg leave to raise it at the first possible date on the Adjournment.

    TYPHOID OUTBREAK, ABERDEEN (MILNE REPORT)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of Recommendation 4(v) in the Milne Report that
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    the powers available to medical officers of health to close premises in which infection may exist should be re-examined to consider whether strengthening of the present powers is desirable; and what steps he has taken and plans to take to implement that recommendation.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health has invited the views of interested parties on the recommendation in so far as it applies to England and Wales. In Scotland the question is to be looked at in a general review of public health legislation.
    Mr. Hughes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that since I tabled this Question the Secretary of State for Scotland has written me a letter expressing appreciation of the work of Dr. MacQueen, the Medical Officer of Health in Aberdeen, and his staff and indicating that he intends seriously to consider this particular recommendation?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, and in answer to a Question on a related matter by my hon. and learned Friend not long ago he will recall that I expressed the appreciation of, I am sure, all of us for the magnificent work of Dr. MacQueen last year.

LONDON GOVERNMENT REORGANISATION
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. ARTHUR LEWIS: To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will now make a further statement on the reorganisation of London government.
The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Richard Crossman): With permission, I will now answer Question No. 61.
The Government have examined all the changes timed to come into full operation in London government on 1st April. Our initial reservations about the London Government Act remain, but our return to office came too late to allow us to reshape the new system in any material way. The new borough councils and the Greater London Council had been elected and were far advanced in their detailed preparations for the assumption

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of their new responsibilities. The desirability of a different allocation of functions had to be weighed against the danger of disrupting services by a last minute change of direction.
None the less, we have been considering whether, in view of the strong feeling which exists in certain quarters, we should not even at this late date legislate to transfer to the Greater London Council responsibility for certain specialised aspects of the children's service in the Greater London area. Consultation between my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary and the interests concerned showed that while there is considerable support for such a step, opinion is not unanimously in favour.
There is, moreover, a widespread fear that a change of arrangements at this stage might be detrimental to the operation of the children's service and to the interests of the children themselves. We have, therefore, concluded that we must allow the transfer of functions to take effect without amendment.
In this situation we shall now do our utmost to ensure the success of the new system. But we propose to keep the working of the Act under review to ensure, for instance, that housing loses none of its impetus. We shall maintain close consultation with the Greater London Council, the London Borough Councils and the Common Council, and we will not hesitate to introduce amendments at a later date should experience suggest that it is right to do so. In particular, we shall consider the requirement to review educational arrangements in inner London before 1970 which is imposed on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science by the London Government Act, 1963.
In the meantime, it is essential that local authorities in the Greater London area should work closely together to coordinate the operation of the social services and, in particular, of the children's service.
Mr. Lewis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most people anticipated that, unfortunately, the Government would not be able to undo a great deal of the damage which is in the Act? Is he also aware that the progressive councils of East and West Ham, which have wonderful
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children's services, will be pleased at this result? Can my right hon. Friend say how much money will be saved by this scheme? The previous Government said that this reorganisation of London government would save a lot of money.
Mr. Crossman: This reorganisation of the children's service will cost a great deal more, because each borough has to organise its own service and this will be a heavy extra burden on the rates.
As for the previous part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I do not want to exacerbate feelings. I know that there are differences of opinion inside parties and inside boroughs, but I very much hope that now that they take over this responsibility for the children's service the boroughs will seek at all costs to maintain certain central features which were a great advantage of the central L.C.C. service. I am thinking of the statistical service, training, central control of remand homes, and so on.
I am doing everything I can to encourage them to do it together jointly and to try to reduce what, inevitably, will be a loss of certain vital efficiency in the service as a result of the break-up of these central features.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be much relief that he has resisted the attempt, even at this late stage, to alter part of the pattern of the system of local government as laid down in the Act? Is he aware that the House will agree with him that the right approach is for all of us to wish for the new authorities, which under this immense reform are taking a heavy responsibility, the best of wishes in the formidable task which they are undertaking?
Mr. Murray: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there will be considerable concern among the staffs of residential establishments and specialist establishments in London in view of his Answer? Is he also aware that there will be concern at his statement about the 1970 review?
Mr. Crossman: I am aware that there are people in the service, and especially in the specialist services, who will be extremely anxious that what I have said will be carried out, but still I have reasonable hope that the boroughs, by cooperation, will be able, if they are determined to do so, to maintain these

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specialist services by one of them keeping and running one of the services, as often happens now in the country, on behalf of the others. But it will take a great deal of effort and we must make sure that nothing is lost as a result of what I have announced.
Mr. Hogg: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say when the educational review to which he referred in his original Answer will begin, or what form it is likely to take?
Mr. Crossman: I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman must have misunderstood my Answer. The educational review is something to which the Act committed the Government before the end of the five years. I said that we were going to review whether we should have such a review.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Hogg: Whether we review the—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must enable some back benchers to take part. Mr. Goodhew.
Mr. Goodhew: In view of the right hon. Gentleman's specific mention of the need to ensure that Londoners are properly housed, may I ask whether he will do his best to ensure that the Greater London Council does what it can to see that those who really need houses are provided with housing, instead of pursuing the policy of the L.C.C., which was to provide housing for people regardless of their means?
Mr. Crossman: This is going very far beyond what I stated. We are mainly concerned to ensure that, with the new responsibilities given to these borough organisations, the impetus of housing is maintained.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his statement today, going back on very much that was said by hon. and right hon. Members opposite in debates on the Local Government Act, will be much appreciated by the great majority of Londoners? Is he further aware that the new London boroughs feel themselves quite competent to run the children's service by themselves, and jointly, in the future?
Mr. Crossman: I suggest to the House that on this issue the best thing now is to forget the past and try to make the thing work. I say that as one of the people who disliked the whole reorganisation, but since it has happened, we have, in a democracy, to make it work now. That is what I said in my statement.
Mr. Lubbock: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any consideration to the possibility of forming an Inner London children's authority, analogous to the Inner London Education Authority, to prevent the disruption of the L.C.C. children's service, which will now, unfortunately, take place? Since the right hon. Gentleman said that he hoped that the impetus of the housing programme in Greater London will be maintained, may I ask what encouragement he is giving to Greater London local authorities to form consortia?
Mr. Crossman: If a special Question were put down on the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary would answer it in full.
As for the first half of the hon. Member's question, we considered the possibility, but, of course, it would require legislation. It has also to be remembered that, by the time we came to consider this matter, children's officers had been, or were being, appointed in the boroughs and that an organisation had been established, which made it difficult to go back. It was only regretfully that we did not, because we were convinced that, in principle, a centralised children's service, such as the L.C.C. had previously, had everything to commend it and that we were sustaining a loss in efficiency as a result, but since this had been done we want it to work as efficiently as possible.

ABERDEEN TRAWLER (LOSS)
Lady Tweedsmuir(by Private Notice) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement on the Aberdeen trawler "Blue Crusader", missing since 13th January in the North Sea and now presumed lost with a crew of 13.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Roy Mason): The trawler "Blue Crusader" left Aberdeen on 13th January

895
with a crew of 13. She was in radio contact with another trawler at 7.30 p.m. that evening near the Orkneys, but there has been no radio contact since. There was a Force 10 gale that night. As soon as it was reported that the trawler was overdue, all shipping was alerted and an extensive air search lasting three days was instituted over the whole Orkney and Shetland area.
Shipping and aircraft in the area, as well as H.M. Coastguard, are continuing to keep a look-out, but so far without result. I am afraid that there can now be little hope for the ship or her crew.
I am sure that the House will wish to join me in expressing our deepest sympathy with the relatives of those who were on board.
Lady Tweedsmuir: I thank the Minister for his statement, and I join with him in expressing very deep regret and sympathy with the relatives of the very fine skipper and crew.
Does his statement mean that the ship is now officially lost, and, if so, will he institute an inquiry to see whether any of the facts can be ascertained?
Secondly, he will be aware that fishing vessels often do not keep in regular contact with their shore base, and that there was in this case a gap, apparently, between 13th January and the day when the "Blue Crusader" was due in port, 26th January, before a search was started. Will the hon. Gentleman consider making a recommendation that all ships should, after severe storms, contact their shore base?
Mr. Mason: There will certainly be an inquiry, more likely in private, and by the Wreck Commissioners.
One obvious piece of evidence which has come out of this whole incident is that on the day when the gale took place and for 13 days thereafter neither the owners nor anyone else seemed to worry about the whereabouts of the ship. No radio contact was made, and no inquiry was sought of the ship. What has alarmed me in my reading of all the details of the matter is that trawlers are going to sea and are not regularly making
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radio contact. Obviously, there is a piece of evidence here which needs examining, and I intend to do so.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Can my hon. Friend say why radio contact failed? Will he investigate the scientific aspects of the matter, because there is a feeling that much of this kind of danger could be met in a properly scientific way?
May I, at the same time, express my sympathy with the relatives of the skipper and crew, adding the earnest hope that such disasters may be averted in the future?
Mr. Mason: What my hon. and learned Friend has said will certainly be looked into.

NEW MEMBER SWORN
Mr. MasonRonald Carlile Buxton, esquire, for Leyton.
BILLS PRESENTED
  TRADE DISPUTES
  Mr. MasonBill to prevent actions founded on tort, or of reparation, being brought in respect of certain acts done in contemplation of furtherance of trade disputes, presented by Mr. Ray Gunter; supported by Mr. George Brown, Sir Frank Soskice, Mr. Houghton, Mr. Frank Cousins, the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General; read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 70.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT 1947 (AMENDMENT) (No. 2)
  Mr. MasonBill to withdraw from ex-officio members of local authorities the right to vote conferred on them by the provisions of section 330 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947, presented by Mr. William Hamilton; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday and to be printed. [Bill 71.]
  CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

  ACTIONS OF HER MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT
  Mr. Speaker: In the ensuing debate, I shall select the Amendment standing in the names of the Prime Minister and other right hon. Members, and no other.
  3.48 p.m.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I beg to move,
  That this House deplores the hasty and ill-considered actions of Her Majesty's Government during their first hundred days of office and has no confidence in their ability to conduct the nation's affairs.
  The best epitaph on the 100 days of Socialist Government so far is the arrival in the House today, by popular vote, of my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton, (Mr. Buxton), and, I must add in fairness, the arrival yesterday of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Cousins).
  I am, glad to see the right hon. Gentleman in his place at last, for what we feel will be the short time available to him in the House, and I hope that he will not take it amiss if, during the next few weeks, we press him to justify his existence as a Minister and the existence of his Ministry. I must say to him that we do not so far know very much what it is about.
  When I spoke to the House at the opening of this Session of Parliament, in the debate on the Address, I expressed my misgivings as to the prospects for the country under applied Socialism. The First Secretary of State had said, "Let us get in and you will all be mightily surprised by Christmas" The Prime Minister had acclaimed in advance the virtues of the 100 dynamic days. The mood of the country, having elected the Socialists, was to give the Government a fair trial and, in this atmosphere of general euphoria, we gave the Government on every possible occasion the benefit of the doubt, even to the point of being severely criticised for doing so by many of our supporters.
  Now we have had the surprises—and more than enough of them, if I may say so. The dynamism about which the Prime Minister spoke has been the dynamism of the bull in the china shop. The pronouncements of the Government and their methods of proceeding have
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  made confusion worse confounded, though I must now announce that the honeymoon is over, and for the best of all possible reasons—that the promises have proved false and the solemn vows undertaken at the General Election have been dishonoured.
  That the Government are at odds with the people seems to be dawning on hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I notice that a committee of Ministers has been set up, with the Prime Minister in the chair, to keep the Prime Minister and his colleagues in touch with the people—a very comic conception, I must say. I will, if I may, suggest an agenda for the first meeting. On the left-hand side would be the statements made by right hon. Gentlemen opposite at the General Election. On the right-hand side would be the facts after the 100 days. It would read something like this:
  "Let's Go With Labour"—7 per cent. Bank Rate and credit restrictions.
  "The World wants it and welcomes it"—The surcharge.
  "The British people want it, deserve it and urgently need it"—The petrol tax and the Income Tax.
  "We will mobilise the resources of technology under a national plan"—The Concord and the aircraft industry.
  "Labour is ready poised to swing their plans into instant operation"—The higher interest rates for the house buyer.
  That would be an agenda which the Prime Minister might well study. It is a record of sterility and incompetence that can scarcely ever have been paralleled in the early days of a Government. There is now so much on the debit side of the Government balance sheet that I must begin the count-down on the Government now.
  My first count against them is closely related to the Amendment which they have put on the Order Paper, and I intend to treat that Amendment seriously, as well as the argument in it. They, in their Amendment, say that they inherited a crisis. We say, and this is now capable of proof, that the crisis was created by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The Prime Minister will answer this charge and speak to his Amendment, so I hope that hon. Members opposite will listen to the

  899
  argument on the other side. We say that this is capable of proof.
  The export trend of the last three months, the record export figures for December and the renewed increase in production fulfil exactly the forecasts made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) throughout the summer to the House. What is more, they fulfil exactly the account of the economy and progress that the country was likely to make which he gave to the Commonwealth Finance Ministers in September and to the International Bank. There was no suggestion at either of those meetings that there was, or was likely to be, any crisis involving the value of the £.
  It was recognised, of course, that there was the problem of increasing exports from this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] If hon. Gentlemen opposite will allow me to continue this sentence I think that they will not disagree with what I am saying. There was the problem of increasing exports to rectify a balance of payments deficit, and it was serious. But there was not a crisis and no suggestion of a crisis involving the value of the £ sterling.
  There was no crisis, I would remind the Prime Minister, on the rundown to the General Election, nor during it, although it was a very testing time, nor after it, even though right hon. Gentlemen opposite, for what they conceived to be political advantage, on every occasion bandied about the figure of the assessed deficit of £800 million. There was no crisis, even then. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I have no doubt that the Prime Minister and his hon. Friends will listen to what I am saying, because the Prime Minister admitted all this as late as 23rd November, and I will quote what he said to the House.
  The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "… so far as the trade gap is concerned … there were reserves and borrowings more than adequate to meet this, but in the course of the past week"—
  that was the week preceding 23rd November—
  "there has been this new development arising from confidence factors …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd November, 1964; Vol. 702, c. 933.]
  In saying that it was a new development the Prime Minister was right,
  900
  because if he will consult the records of the movement of foreign exchange at that time he will see that it is quite apparent that the real crisis involving the value of the £ dated from the time when people overseas got the double shock of the method which led to the surcharge fiasco and the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget, which was irrelevant to the problems of the time.
  However, everyone knew that Britain had to get through a particularly difficult period in 1964, in particular the last months of 1964. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I should have thought that hon. Members opposite would know why, for 1964—I would inform the vociferous hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence), in particular—was a year in which industry was restocking so that it could surge forward in a new expansion in the latter part of 1964 and the early part of 1965. In fact, this is what is happening now, because hon. Members opposite will have seen the trend for exports and the increase in the production figures. They will not deny it, I hope, because it is happening. What the situation demanded in the autumn of 1964 was calm, financial skill and confidence, and those are three skills singularly lacking in the Socialist Government. Instead, we had panic measures.
  The trouble was that right hon. and hon. Members opposite were hypnotised by their own political propaganda and could not resist the temptation of giving hysterical and exaggerated accounts of Britain's problems. They could hardly complain, particularly after the notorious performance of Her Majesty's Ministers at the E.F.T.A. meeting, if foreigners took fright. If we got through the crisis of confidence, it was not because of the Government's actions but in spite of them.
  It was in spite of a Socialist Government's actions and the breach of treaties that they involved, and the distrust they showed of friends and allies by failure to have any consultations with them whatever, that the international bankers—a fine stroke of irony for the party opposite—believed in the integrity of Britain, because they had always experienced it and had faith in the fundamental strength and future buoyancy of the British economy.
  If the export situation now is really improving—and I believe and hope that

  901
  it is—that is good, but the improvement is due to export orders placed long ago, and when the right hon. Gentleman got as near as he did, on a television programme last night, to saying that the improvements we note now in the economy are due to actions taken by the Socialist Government, he really stretched credulity to breaking point.
  If the advice of my right hon. Friends and the Conservative Government had been taken in the autumn there would have been no crisis involving the value of the £ sterling; so my first count against the Government is that they shook confidence in Britain—an unforgiveable thing for a British Government to do. The Government's Amendment is the last fling of misrepresentation. Nobody is any longer deceived.
  My second count is that it is the people who will pay a very heavy bill as a consequence of the Government's hasty action. It is a direct consequence of Government action because, against everything that the Prime Minister and his right hon. Friends ever said in the past, or any Socialist on those benches so far as I know, they have now slammed on the brakes. It was on this aspect of our affairs that the Prime Minister and his right hon. Friends were most specific in their pledges.
  On 26th October, the Government said that they rejected any policy based on a return to stop-go economics. Three times the Prime Minister said that the Bank Rate would not be raised. On numberless occasions, he and his right hon. Friends poured scorn on the credit squeeze. There is now one operating. How many electors, attracted by the slogan "Let's Go With Labour", thought that in a few months they would be up against that? I can only say that the Government have done all these things that were solemnly pledged not to do, and if there is any rectitude left in them, they should go—
  Mr. E. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman want a General Election?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman will have his chance to speak, but I do not wonder that the Patronage Secretary was getting a little
  902
  agitated, because he will have to arrange the demise when it comes.
  The results of the Government's action will be felt in future, and for the rest of this year still further, because the right hon. Gentleman the First Secretary of State, in particular, must know that firm after firm—and local authorities, too—have had their plans for development held up. Already the country is saddled with increased debt, and if we are to avoid unemployment in the autumn—and every one of us in the House wants to do that—it will not be because of the Government's actions, but in spite of them.
  This adverse position has been immensely aggravated by the Government's habit, apparently incurable, of announcing in principle—if that is the right word—what they want to do, without stopping to examine whether it is possible. They have done this time and again during the last 100 days. The first example I would give is that of the Concord. They first christened it a prestige programme. In doing so, and in the way they handled the matter, they laid themselves open to the accusation by a partner and ally of bad faith and breach of contract.
  The Concord is saved, and the programme goes forward—at least, I assume that it does—but that is not because of the Government, but in spite of them and, in particular, because my right hon. and hon Friends insisted that this was not a prestige project but one that involved our aviation industry. I say that the whole of this operation on the Concord, as conducted by the Government, was unnecessary, and has been highly damaging to Britain.
  The second example I would give is the aircraft industry. I think that the Prime Minister is making the aircraft industry a feature of his speech this afternoon—for transparent reasons. The Government are, of course, right to keep the development of these large aviation and aircraft programmes under constant review—no one would complain about that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is the method of handling all these matters that is so much at fault, and I want to make some very serious points to the right hon. Gentleman on our aviation and aircraft development.
  Nobody has been pressing the Prime Minister to make announcements about

  903
  this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]In fact, it is well within the recollection of the House that early in this Parliament I begged him not to make hasty judgments on these matters of defence and security. Indeed, I pressed him to take time. Yet, within a few weeks of the Government's coming into power, the rumours began to leak out in Government circles, and became more and more circumstantial, that this or that aircraft under development was to be scrapped.
  Then we were told that the Plowden Committee was being set up to consider the future structure and rôle of the aircraft industry in Britain. The rumours multiplied until it was clear—and this was apparent to the workers in the factories—that the Government were preparing to scrap large parts of the aircraft development and production programme to an extent that would fundamentally affect the structure of the industry. This was the point at which everyone, including those in the factories, was alerted to the real danger. It was obvious that they were doing this before they had decided whether it was Government policy to sustain an aircraft industry in Britain and on what scale.
  The reason why it is so vital to take the big decision first is that it is so very easy to create a situation in which design teams and technicians are disbanded because there is nothing worth while left for them to do. If that happens the country will be left without the ability to develop sophisticated aircraft of this kind at all. There would then be no alternative—let us face this—but to buy American at America's prices. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I am coming to the reason if hon. Members will keep quiet for a moment.
  It is necessary sometimes, of course, if the price is right and it fulfils a need, to buy American aircraft, but there is all the difference in the world—I hope that hon. Members who interrupted will understand this—between that situation and one in which there is an American monopoly and nothing else. Nothing could be more expensive for this country than that.
  We are a much smaller country and in that sense at a disadvantage with the
  904
  United States both in the scale on which we can produce and the scale on which we can order the final product, but so, too, are France, Italy and Germany. The answer to this problem, I believe, is to exploit as far as we possibly can the joint development of aircraft and weapons in Europe with other Euporean countries. I can only say—and I believe that the Leader of the Liberal Party agrees with this part at least of what I am saying—that it is no preparation for future partnership with European countries, first, to throw away the asset of good will, which the Government did in the case of the Concord, and secondly, to abandon our ability to make a technical contribution through our design teams.
  The Prime Minister has elected himself to announce the decisions, or some decisions, today in the middle of a Motion of censure debate. We shall, of course study his statement with the greatest care. I say to him now that it will clearly need a separate debate in which we can study these matters, and I hope very soon.
  I make only two more points before I leave this question of aircraft and aircraft development and production. I hope that the Prime Minister will not be tempted to write down the aircraft and the weapons which are in service, or coming into service, as being obsolete or inadequate. The Lightnings, the Buccaneers in service, the VCIO in Transport Command, Blue Steel in Bomber Command and the new weapons of which the Prime Minister is aware, but which I shall not mention here—he knows that these are all of the highest quality. In addition, the TSR2, the P1154, the HS681 and the Belfasts will give the Royal Air Force a strength unexampled in its history.
  The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. George Brown): When?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I will not shirk anything if the right hon. Gentleman will listen to what I have to say.
  I hope that in assessing and comparing costs and time scales given by American and British companies, the right hon. Gentleman will exercise some caution. We are dealing with very narrow margins in a field of ruthless competition and I beg the Prime Minister to remember that

  905
  many people would like to see us out of this business altogether.
  Our Government, the Conservative Government, contrived a bomber force and we were able to rely upon using every one of those bombers if we wished to do so and if we wished to deploy them. They have a very important conventional rôle. If we give away half our bomber force to an international force, which we could not use, for instance, in the case of the defence of Malaysia, we shall reduce the effective strength of our Air Force. I hope that what the Prime Minister says today will not be a cover for any such plan. I have constantly called attention to the dangers of losing control of our ability to employ our own forces, and I repeat that now.
  My next count against the Government—and I shall not spend as long as I should have liked to on all these headings, but leave some of them to my hon. and right hon. Friends—is the doubt and confusion which they have inflicted on the country by their taxation policies.
  Mr. George Brown: The Prime Minister—[Laughter.] The Leader of the Opposition said that he would shirk nothing, and that he would certainly deal with the question I asked him, which was when those aeroplanes he referred to would be available. He has now moved off that subject, without dealing with the point which he said he would not shirk. Will he now tell the House when the aeroplanes he enumerated were, in his view, to come into service?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman eventually got it right, I hope that his prophecy will prove more accurate than many of the Government's have proved. What I said was that these time scales are extremely narrow when we have to consider whether to have the TSR2 or the TFX. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] The time—
  Mr. Brown: When?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I cannot answer a question if I am not allowed to speak.
  The time scale of an American estimate for 1968 and ours for 1967–68 is a very narrow scale. I want right hon.
  906
  Gentleman opposite to consider that very carefully when making their decisions.
  My next count against the Government, to which I must direct the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is on the Government's taxation policy. I have already reminded the Chancellor of the statement which he and others made to the effect that Socialism would not mean general increases in taxation. I will give him one refresher. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet forecast that Socialism would mean increases in taxation, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this was screwy, nursery school stuff. Who was screwy? It was not my right hon. Friend.
  In the event, no one could have believed, in view of the Prime Minister's advertised reputation for competence the mess, the muddle and confusion that spread throughout business owing to the method of approach by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the corporation and capital gains taxes. No one can tell the effect that those taxes will have on future business prospects. This Government of planners have, in fact, made planning impossible. We shall do our best to clarify these taxes in the debates on the Finance Bill, if and when we reach it.
  There are many other counts which I could bring against the Government. I must leave some for my right hon. and hon. Friends, but I must mention prices. The Government cannot evade the charge that in their autumn Budget they gave a boost to rising prices. How many housewives, having to meet higher prices over the widest range of goods, were taken in by the promise of the First Secretary that he would tackle rising prices at the roots?
  I do not question the right hon. Gentleman's intentions. He has a statement of intent on incomes policy, which I welcome. He is establishing machinery, I understand, to inquire into rising prices. I understand that he is calling it a court. I hope that it will not be an inquisition. We shall be vigilant to see that it is not. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]
  That is the attitude of a great many hon. Gentlemen opposite. They like an inquisition; they like the full paraphernalia of Socialist controls, under which they wish to keep the nation. But what is the use of intent when the cost of living soars and wages go chasing after?

  907
  I am afraid that those who receive the extra pensions and benefits will have an experience similar to that which they had under the last Socialist Government, when increased benefits were continuously eroded by rising prices.
  The First Secretary has said some tough things about certain price increases. He may be right; I do not know. But let him be cautious. For instance, let him ask the local authorities how much the autumn taxes are adding to their estimates for 1965. He will find all over the country very substantial additions, and these have to be carried by the rates; and local authorities are not interested in squeezing the public.
  My next indictment is that if the Government have a shred of political integrity, they ought to resign. [Laughter.] Let the First Secretary get his laugh over. He will not laugh again during what I have to say. I refer to the specific pledge given to the electors by the Prime Minister and the First Secretary, and repeated by other Ministers on the Front Bench and every hon. Member on the Government back benches, that interest rates would be reduced for those who wish to build houses for themselves.
  The pledges are within the recollection of everybody, and they were over a wide range. They included 100 per cent. mortgages, lower mortgage rates, and lower interest rates. The Prime Minister said, "We shall cheapen the cost of housing by our interest rate policy." The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "House owners are to be aided by favourable interest rates."
  A great many people were deceived by this. The First Secretary went so far as to suggest that the interest rate might be 3 per cent.
  Mr. George Brown Mr. George Brown indicated dissent.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: This must have disappointed very many people. I have a letter from a gentleman who decided to take advantage of the right hon. Gentleman's 3 per cent. scheme and wrote and asked the right hon. Gentleman for papers explaining it. The letter was handed to the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and after a month this gentleman got the following reply:
  "Any local authority which makes loans for houses will supply details if application is
  908
  made to them. There is no Government mortgage loan scheme."
  That is what the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Housing and Local Government said. Could any elector have thought, after the General Election, that if he wrote to the right hon. Gentleman he would get that reply?
  Let us suppose that the man goes to the London County Council. It would charge him 7¼ per cent., I understand. If he goes to some other local authorities, they will be forced to tell him that they have had to stop loans for house ownership altogether. So little faith has the London County Council in the Socialist Government and Socialist promises that it has floated two new loans at 6¾ per cent. In such circumstances it is useless for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to rant at the building societies. With terms of that sort coming on the market, what can the building societies do if they are to attract funds?
  Also, the President of the Builders' Federation has said that the effects of the autumn taxes together have added between £90 and £100 to the cost of building an average-size house. He adds that it would be fair to say that the new three-bedroom houses being built by local authorities will cost about £100 more as the result of the autumn Budget. Are we now to see the effects of these extra costs in rent and rates?
  If pledges given at General Elections are to be meaningless, what happens to democracy? I do not know how right hon. Gentlemen opposite can sit complacently in their places with this litter of broken pledges all around them. If I may say so to the Leader of the Liberal Party, I do not know how he can keep them there.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington) rose—
  Hon. Members: Give way.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I cannot give way. Hon Gentlemen opposite will notice that the Leader of the Liberal Party is still sitting in his place.
  So much for the final sentences of the Government's Amendment to our Motion of censure.
  If, after this appalling record, the Government still want to go on clinging to office, they must get their priorities

  909
  right. I do not see the President of the Board of Trade here, but I welcome the measures that have been taken to stimulate exports. But what right hon. Gentlemen opposite do with their right hand they undo with their left. I have pointed out time and again that we cannot afford to sacrifice exports because of political prejudice. I would quantify for the House, and particularly for the Prime Minister, the orders that we might have received from Spain. The country and, in Particular, the people in the factories manufacturing the electronic equipment can see the attitude of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  The first batch of orders was for £11½ million. The next batch of orders will be worth about £100 million, and we could have got a large proportion of it. The unspeakable folly of this is that these orders have gone to the United States—our ally in defence of democracy. I hope that the British workers who are deprived of their work and earnings will march on Downing Street, because this loss was the Prime Minister's own doing.
  The first task of the Conservative Government to come will be to restore confidence in Britain and to convince the foreigner—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"]. I have plenty of time. If hon. Members opposite will keep quiet a little more they will not have to wait much longer, but they are going to get one or two more nasty blows.
  The first task of the Conservative Government which must succeed this one will be to restore confidence in Britain; to convince people that it is profitable to bank and invest here; to start repairing the damage caused to E.F.T.A. and Europe; to make it clear that partnership means consultation and trust; that we mean to continue as banker for the sterling area; and that our purpose is to resume steady economic growth; to achieve the widest possible economic base for British industry; to add to such joint exploits in Europe as the Concord and E.L.D.O. projects; and to put the first emphasis on competitive industry and give our technologists the chance to hold their own.
  Finally, I must say to the Government, in spite of what the Prime Minister said to the country last night on television, that they should drop the nationalisation of steel. It is recognised by the electors
  910
  at home as the ultimate folly and abroad as being foolish. The record of the Government so far, if it is coupled with the nationalisation of steel, shows that they have no theme for the greatness of this country, but that they are small-minded, introspective men.
  I reminded the House at the beginning of my speech of the statements by right hon. Gentlemen opposite which preceded the 100 days. We are now getting more considered and erudite statements about the attitude of the Government to the next 100 days. One example has been given by Lord Bowden, in Australia. He said:
  "Mr. Wilson needs to give Britain a kick in the backside and if he cannot do it, nobody can."
  I want to ask—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): Order. I hope that the House will give the Leader of the Opposition an orderly hearing.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Perhaps hon. Members opposite will let me ask the Prime Minister one question. Does this speech by Lord Bowden represent Government policy? If so, then the muddle continues, because, in a moment of candid confidence, not very long ago, the Prime Minister, speaking of himself, said:
  "I fly by the seat of my pants."
  It seems that the boot may be on the other foot and that very soon the country will see to it that the right hon. Gentleman does. Not for the first time will it be necessary for a Conservative Government to clear up the mess of Socialism, and we are ready to so.
  4.35 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I beg to move, to leave out from "deplores" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "the irresponsibility of the former administration leading to the serious situation which confronted Her Majesty's Government, and pledges its support for remedial measures to strengthen the country's economy and security and provide rising standards for the British people".
  I think that the all-time high or low of the Leader of the Opposition's speech —it depends how one looks at it—in terms of measuring his sincerity was his thrice-repeated call for an early General

  911
  Election. This, from a right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."] We have plenty of time. This was from a right hon. Gentleman who clung to office to the very last humiliating minute because he was afraid of the electorate, and who, by doing so, made much worse an economic situation about which his own Chancellor of the Exchequer had warned him.
  I was interested in some of the right hon. Gentleman's obiter dicta. Most of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was taken from a Tory Central Office pamphlet, which I have here. He missed a rather neat point on page 45, I thought. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Bernard Braine: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The Prime Minister has referred to a pamphlet which is not in the possession of the House. Fortunately, I have a copy in my hand. The right hon. Gentleman referred—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The House must listen when an hon. Gentleman is trying to put a point of order.
  Mr. Braine: I wondered whether the Prime Minister was referring to the point in the pamphlet which says—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I hope that the House will not indulge in the habit of trying to introduce argument under the guise of a point of order.
  The Prime Minister: I was about to refer—
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Sir Rolf Dudley Williams: With respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I would have thought that it was relevant and in order for the Prime Minister to refer to a document which points out that—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Exeter (Sir Rolf Dudley Williams) is experienced enough in Parliamentary ways to know that that is no more a point of order than was the first interruption.
  Sir Rolf Dudley Williams Sir Rolf Dudley Williams rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to obey the Chair.
  Sir Rolf Dudley Williams: On a point of order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Has the hon. Gentleman a point of order which he wishes to raise?
  The Prime Minister The Prime Minister rose—
  Mr. Braine Mr. Braine rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I said before that I hoped that hon. Members would not waste the time of the House by raising alleged points of order which are not points of order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to put a point of order, I will listen to it.
  Mr. Braine: My point of order was simply that in referring to a pamphlet which he hoped nobody else had the Prime Minister was making an innuendo, which was that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was missing a point on page 45 of the pamphlet. That was a clear innuendo. I seek your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. If it is improper for me to read the passage from the pamphlet, which is in my hand, will you invite the Prime Minister to—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman claims the right to refer to an innuendo in his point of order. But it was not a point of order. As for the Prime Minister's speech, innuendoes are a matter of argument, not of order.
  The Prime Minister The Prime Minister rose—
  Sir Rolf Dudley Williams: Will the Prime Minister give way?
  Mr. Shinwell: Throw him out.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must ask hon. Gentlemen to conduct themselves in accordance with the best traditions of the House.
  Mr. Victor Goodhew (St. Albans): On a point of order. I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to put this point of order, which is new. The Prime Minister referred to a document. Is it not within the rules of order that if a Member refers to a document he should disclose to what it is he is referring?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That was not a document within the rules of the House.
  Sir Rolf Dudley Williams Sir Rolf Dudley Williams rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must ask the hon. Member, who has risen several times, to conduct himself in accordance with the traditions of the House.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Can I help the right hon. Gentleman?
  Mr. William Hamilton Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, West): rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition wishes to address the Chair on a point of order.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: It was not on a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I want to say to the Prime Minister that I think I can help here. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Gentleman will be quiet, I will simply say that I have now had the chance to read page 45 of the document. I only intended to tell the Prime Minister that I had not, of course, consulted page 45. I did not quote from it and I did not evade anything in it. Now he can get on with his speech.
  The Prime Minister: I can understand the obvious unwillingness of hon. Members opposite to get the facts which they are going to get in the next half an hour.
  Mr. Braine Mr. Braine rose—
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan): He ought to be gagged.
  The Prime Minister: I was about to refer—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. May I make one observation? Hon. Members have deprecated the practice outside the House of not allowing candidates at General Elections to speak and to be heard. I hope that the House will extend to its own Members the courtesy which it demands for each of its Members outside the House.
  The Prime Minister: I was about to mention the reference by the right hon. Gentleman to the word "court" in connection with the proposed new body to inquire into incomes and prices. This came very strangely from the right hon. Gentleman, since it was his Government which set up the Restrictive Practices Court, with all the inquisitorial powers to which he objected.
  914
  The main burden of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was to complain, as he did in his concluding words, that pledges given in a General Election had not been carried out in the first 13 weeks of office. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman remembers how many pledges the 1951 Government carried out in their first 13 weeks. I will tell him. It was their pledge given to the brewers to allow them to open tied "pubs" in new towns. The one pledge. Their other two pledges in that election—to "mend the hole in the purse" and to reduce Government expenditure by £700 million—were never carried out in 13 years.
  I do not intend to spend too much time on the right hon. Gentleman's speech itself, because we all recognise that in moving a Motion of confidence—[HON. MEMBERS: "No confidence."]—it is a bit hard to tell sometimes—and in calling for a General Election, the right hon. Gentleman has no intention or hope of succeeding with either. [HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."] I will take advice from some Members, but on the question of an early General Election not from the right hon. Gentleman or those sitting behind him.
  There is only one election in which the right hon. Gentleman is interested—the election of the Leader of the Conservative Party. In this succession of continual Motions of censure which we have been promised we are to get the whole parade of all the candidates. What we are getting now is a prolonged Tory selection conference without the wives. I will leave that point by saying that we on this side of the House are united in support of the right hon. Gentleman's own candidature, which is more than can be said about hon. Members opposite.
  Mr. Goodhew Mr. Goodhew rose—
  The Prime Minister: I am going now directly to the main theme of the Opposition's Motion, summed up in one word in their Motion, "hasty", which they say our measures have been. Whatever else one likes to call our measures, they certainly have not been that. Overdue, if one likes, long overdue—six months, a year, two years or more overdue, because for two years up to last October we had no government in this country. Indeed we can take a longer period.

  915
  If we take the period of the Common Market negotiations, to which the then Government looked as a means of having decisions taken for this country which they were unwilling or unable to take for themselves, we have a period of well over three years in which virtually nothing was done and nothing was decided, and in which an already serious situation deteriorated. We then had this long paralysis because the right hon. Gentleman was unable to make up his mind about the timing of the election. Nothing was more irresponsible than the right hon. Gentleman postponing the election, and postponing any remedial action to deal with the economic situation until the last possible date.
  Which measures does the right hon. Gentleman think were over-hasty? He gave us a few illustrations; but, of course, he was very selective. I will remind him of one or two others which were introduced on which it would have been interesting to know his attitude, which he never mentioned. I might mention the first Act to receive the Royal Assent in this Parliament. It was only a small Act, but it was one which ended the indefensible anomaly in our law which prevented old-age pensioners in many parts of the country from getting free bus passes while others were getting them. I know that this was something which the Tories held up. Successive Ministers of Transport held it up for nine years when we pressed them to do something about it. The Leader of the Opposition was dickering with it right through last spring and summer. But when we introduced the Bill in fulfilment of an election pledge hon. Members opposite did not oppose it. They did not even have the courage of their nine-year old convictions. Of course, they would never have done it. Do they say that we were hasty in putting this matter right?
  Take another one—the abolition of the earnings rule for widows. Again, hon. Members opposite did not oppose that when we brought it forward. They never got round to it in 13 years. Was that hasty and ill-considered, as we are told in the Motion? If so, why did not hon. Members opposite oppose it? If it was necessary, why did not they do it?
  916
  Take our decision to raise the retirement pension, unemployment and sickness benefits, the widows' pension, the widowed mothers' allowance, the long overdue addition to the so-called 10s. widows and the decision to increase National Assistance rates. Were they hasty and ill-considered or not? The right hon. Gentleman did not tell us. Certainly, hon. Members opposite would never have dealt with those matters, because, knowing them, if they did not do so before an election they would certainly not have done so after. But, again, when we proposed to deal with those matters hon. Members opposite did not vote against it. They did, of course, vote against the means of paying for the increases. This is a measure of their responsibility.
  We should know the attitude of hon. Members opposite to this question, because we are talking about the record of the first 100 days of this Government. Was it hasty of us to raise pensions or not? If it was unnecessarily precipitate —[Interruption.] I should have thought that the last people in the House to talk about delays in paying the increased pension would be hon. Members opposite. The delay was due to the fact that they were never going to increase pensions and they left a machine which could not be speeded up.
  A by-election address circulated by hon. Members opposite reads:
  "Pensions
  Another winter with nothing for the old folk while M.P.s get a huge rise immediately".
  Is that the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman, when he was responsible for not paying the increased pensions, and when he was as committed, as we were, to the pay rise for Members of Parliament? That, again, is a measure of the right hon. Gentleman's sincerity.
  I will press the question of the pension increase further. If hon. Members opposite accepted the need for the increase, and if they did not vote against it, how did they think that it would be paid for? I take it that I carry the right hon. Gentleman with me when I say that it could not have been paid for by adding to the overall Budget deficit. I think that the right hon. Gentleman would agree that if we had simply added the cost to the deficit that would have been inflationary.

  917
  He does not disagree with that, I take it.
  I must put these questions to the right hon. Gentleman, because we get so many different answers from different Front Bench Members who claim to be the alternative Government, although the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) would disagree with a lot of them on everything. I have to ask the Leader of the Opposition, as mover of the Motion, where he stands. Since he agrees, presumably—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]. Hon. Members opposite have had our answers. We introduced the Bill increasing the pensions and we had the integrity to say how it would be paid for. We did not vote for the increased pensions and vote against the means of paying for them—
  Mr. Braine Mr. Braine rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman knows that if the Prime Minister does not give way he must resume his seat. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to control himself.
  Mr. Braine Mr. Braine rose—
  The Prime Minister: This is a question of the integrity of the Opposition Front Bench, not of the hon. Gentleman. What I am asking is this: did they consider it hasty to introduce the Pensions (Increase) Measure or not? If they thought that it was not hasty, how did they think that it would be paid for except by the Budget introduced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  Mr. Braine Mr. Braine rose—
  The Prime Minister: I will give way to the Leader of the Opposition if he wants to answer these questions. I have some more to ask him.
  If the right hon. Gentleman intends to agree with the pensions, but to object to the taxes which we put in the Budget, what other taxes would he have put in? The whole integrity of his case is destroyed when we put this question to him.
  Take another case, the Act introduced to prevent—
  Sir Keith Joseph Sir Keith Joseph (Leeds, North-East)rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. John Farr: On a point of order. In view of the obvious
  918
  importance to this debate of the page in a booklet to which reference has been made, would you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, be good enough to arrange for an extract from that page to be included in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is wasting the time of the House.
  The Prime Minister: I will give way to the so-called Leader of the Opposition, not to the candidates.
  Hon. Members: Cheap.
  The Prime Minister: Now, I turn—
  Mr. William Yates: On a point of order. Is it in order for the Prime Minister to refer to the Leader of the Opposition, who is a paid Member of the House and draws a salary, as "the so-called Leader of the Opposition"?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not customary, but it is in order.
  The Prime Minister: Now, I come—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I intend to make the speech I came to make, whatever hon. Members opposite may do. The Leader of the Opposition made his—
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: On a point of order—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Before I can call the hon. Member to put his point of order, may I deprecate from the Chair the spending of a lot of time on points of order in what is a very important debate.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: We are grateful, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for your Ruling about my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition being described by the Prime Minister as the so-called Leader of the Opposition. My point of order is to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether it would be in order to call the Prime Minister the so-called Prime Minister.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I would hope that in this debate, and in other debates, hon. Members would end the practice of raising bogus points of order.
  The Prime Minister: I should have thought that the hon. Member opposite had enough responsibility for some of the speeches to which we have had to listen

  919
  without adding to our gaiety this afternoon
  I want to come to another question, to see whether hon. Members opposite regard our actions as hasty. I refer to the Act to prevent over-hasty evictions by landlords. The whole House must agree by now that the Tory Rent Act of 1957 has failed in its purpose of equating supply to demand, that it has caused intolerable hardship and that it has destroyed security of tenure for hundreds of thousands of families. There cannot be much argument about that.
  We asked in the election for a mandate to repeal that Act and we shall carry out that mandate. We are working on the Bill now. As every hon. Member knows, however, the knowledge that landlords would lose their freedom to evict tenants for unjust reasons meant a great increase of threatened evictions last October. So we acted quickly with my right hon. Friend's Bill.
  Again, hon. Members opposite, who were up to their necks in responsibility for the Rent Act and its consequences, did not oppose our Measure. It was a hasty Measure, I agree. It was hasty because it was dealing with an urgent and critical situation. Do hon. Members opposite say that it was too hasty? This one was not mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition.
  The question of prescription charges—was that hasty and ill-considered?
  Mr. Nigel Fisher Mr. Nigel Fisher (Surbiton) indicated assent.
  The Prime Minister: Does the Leader of the Opposition think so? Why did he not vote against it? Our new Bill to establish Law Commissioners to deal with all the ancient, moss-grown system of 5,000 Acts of Parliament, is this hasty? This, surely, is long overdue.
  Again, there is a wide range of measures, to which the right hon. Gentleman did not refer, not involving legislation. He referred to and praised the diligence of my right hon. Friend the First Secretary in securing the declaration of intent on incomes and prices. He did not suggest that that was hasty and ill-considered, I take it. The right hon. Gentleman has been telling us for years that it was necessary if we were to get
  920
  expansion without inflation. The trouble with hon. Members opposite was that, while they were willing the end of an incomes policy, they were too doctrinaire to produce the means necessary to get one.
  During the election, however, a note of urgency crept into the voices of right hon. and hon. Members opposite on this question. Then, the Leader of the Opposition said that he would require the unions to deal with these issues, whatever he may have meant by that. But does he feel that our action in pushing on with plans for an incomes policy was hasty and ill-considered?
  Again, the Leader of the Opposition is not really responsible—he does not tell us these things—because he is in serious difficulty here as well. The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) rightly says that this is essential, whereas the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West—it is only a few weeks since the "shadow" fatted calf was killed for him on his return to the Front Bench—has, if he was correctly reported, described an incomes policy as being a nonsense, a silly nonsense, a transparent nonsense and, what is worse, a dangerous nonsense.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Wolverhampton, South-West) indicated assent.
  The Prime Minister: I am glad to have confirmation from the right hon. Gentleman that that is his attitude to our incomes policy.
  Does the right hon. Member for Barnet agree with that? Very well. We know that he is very coy about these things, but where does the Leader of the Opposition stand on this one? After all, he was even talking this afternoon about being an alternative Government. Look at them! I do not wish to confuse counsel by referring to the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), but I noticed that in one of those outbursts of sick humour in The Guardian this week he was put in the short list of three for the candidature.
  To take another case, the decision announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to halt all major railway closures except those where the position had been decided by his predecessor. Was this a hasty decision?

  921
  [Interruption.] Some say "Yes", some say "No" and the Leader of the Opposition says nothing at all.
  Then there is our decision to reverse the action of the previous Government, when time after time for, I should have thought, doctrinaire ideological reasons they refused to allow railway workshops to tender for private contracts for rolling stock on a competitive basis. We put this right. Was that hasty? Did right hon. and hon. Members opposite agree with it or not? [Interruption.] Wrong again. As I say, I should like a little help from the Leader of the Opposition on these answers, despite the fact that the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) is trying to answer some of these questions.
  The Leader of the Opposition did not single out any one of these instances which I have mentioned of important legislation or action by the Government. He did not deal with any of these. He had his own short list, and to that short list of his I now turn. [Interruption.] The House will recognise that I am moving an Amendment. I am speaking to that Amendment and I intend to go on speaking to it.
  The right hon. Gentleman did not even stick to his Motion, but I will refer to the case that he made. On the question of tariff surcharges, does he really think that we acted precipitately? Does he? [HON. MEMBERS: "Tell us."] I wonder whether he really thinks that we could have gone on with that ominously mounting trade gap as it was, without taking action? The real charge against the late Government is their monumental irresponsibility in letting that gap get worse, neither taking action, nor having an election to make way for those who were prepared to take it.
  We are talking of a very serious issue here. If the House will be serious for a moment, I will give those who are interested, and able to understand them, the figures quarter by quarter. These are the figures of the visible balance of trade from the beginning of 1963, seasonally adjusted. These are the straight trade figures, the balance of imports against exports and re-exports. These are the straightforward trade figures on an f.o.b. basis—nothing to do with financial transactions, no speculative movements, no leads and lags, just the straightforward
  922
  balance of trade measurable figures which are available to the whole House. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about capital investment?"] That does not enter into the figures of exports.
  I am giving the trade figures, and if hon. Gentlemen listen carefully they will see where they lead. These are the straightforward figures on the new f.o.b. basis, both ways. In the first quarter of 1963 the country had a favourable balance of £23 million—plus 23. In the second quarter we had an unfavourable balance of £6 million—minus 6. In the third quarter, an unfavourable balance of £24 million. In the fourth quarter, an unfavourable balance of £42 million. In the first quarter of 1964, we had an unfavourable balance of £108 million—minus 108.
  This was the quarter when the right hon. Gentleman started to go round repeating that the economy had seldom, if ever, been stronger, and when, in fact, the balance of trade was then running at a rate well over £500 million a year worse than a year earlier. In the second quarter of last year the figure was minus £135 million. In the third quarter, the last period when they were in office, the figure was minus £156 million. And all this time the invisible balance, too, was worsening. Of course, it was in the third quarter when the right hon. Gentleman was making his election speeches accusing us of trying to take the country into a crisis.
  Those were the figures, so in seven quarters we had a progressive worsening—plus 23, minus 6, minus 24, minus 42, minus 108, minus 135, and, finally, minus 156. From a surplus at an annual rate of nearly £100 million in the first quarter of 1963, we moved to a deficit in the quarter ending September last at an annual rate of £624 million. All that the right hon. Gentleman could do then was to go on his interminable whistle-stop tours proclaiming that the economy had never been stronger.
  All that the right hon. Gentleman can say today is that urgent action to deal with that situation when we came in was over-hasty. Let me remind the Opposition that they dined out for 13 years on the 1951 legend. Although the 1951 figures were immeasurably worsened by fantastically high import prices due to

  923
  Korea, which no one will deny—the import prices index was one-third higher than in 1964—even so the basic trade and payments position which we found in October last was worse than in October, 1951.
  Last November right hon. Gentlemen questioned the estimate of a balance of payments deficit of £700 million to £800 million. Since then we have had the published figures for the third quarter ending 30th September. The deficit in those three months was £283 million, representing an annual rate of nearly £1,130 million, and that was the figure which we faced when we took office. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to have any reputation for integrity in this matter, he must answer that. He must have known these figures, which were available to the House, and if any hon. Member who catches the eye of the Chair wants to shoot them down, he is free to try to do so. These are figures which have never been questioned. They are the official figures published mainly by the Party opposite when they were in power. I got the figure of £1,130 million by multiplying £283 million by four, and if anyone else does the same sum he will get that answer.
  Sir John Rodgers Sir John Rodgers (Sevenoaks) rose—
  The Prime Minister: I will give way when the Leader of the Opposition rises to answer this. He must have known of the worsening payments situation throughout last year.
  I think that to go on repeating his claim that the economy had seldom, if ever, been stronger, when he knew the facts, and to use his authority as Prime Minister for this kind of electioneering, was a total misleading of the country. Does he still think that he was right in saying that the economy had seldom, if ever, been stronger? Does he, in the light of these figures, think that he was giving the country an honest picture when he said that? I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman if he wants me to do so. They were all in it.
  Hon. Members: What about aircraft?
  The Prime Minister: I can understand hon. Gentlemen opposite not wanting this to be rubbed in. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said right through 1964.
  924
  Some hon. Gentleman opposite would not have been here if some people in the country had not believed what the right hon. Gentleman said. They believed that he spoke with authority, and now he has not got the guts to stand up and say that he stands by the decision he made then.
  That was the background to the surcharge, because, as I think the House will agree, the most serious element in the worsening position was the big increase in the import of manufactured goods, many of them goods in whose production and export not long ago we led the world. The right hon. Gentleman denied it a year ago when I said it. The right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) devoted a great part of his speech during the Budget debate to a sustained attack on me for having said it, but we have the figures now. Manufactured goods imports rose 122 per cent. in the past five years, adding £460 million a year to our import bill, and they rose nearly 30 per cent. last year compared with 1963, but they said that this action was not needed, so we had to take urgent action ten days after we came in. Was this over-hasty against the figures which I have given? In my submission, it was long overdue, but did we take the right action?
  I wonder whether the Opposition have been right to condemn surcharges. There were really two choices if we were to contain this dangerous increase in imports. The day before our announcement was made, the right hon. Member for Barnet said, in the Sunday Times:
  "I thought it wise in the summer to prepare measures against the posibility that the trade gap would prove more stubborn than we expected and I set afoot a full re-examination of import controls, tariff surcharges, and incentives to exports."
  As between surcharges and import quotas, rightly or wrongly we chose surcharges. I have some experience of administering import quotas in the system that we inherited at the end of the war, and the Government felt that import quotas would do far more, and lasting, damage not only to the general pattern of world trade, but to production and industry in this country. In choosing surcharges rather than quotas we had the backing of the right hon. Member for Barnet, because, as soon as we had made the announcement, he issued a statement saying that we had chosen his diagnosis and his remedies.

  925
  The right hon. Member for Bexley, presumably because his right hon. Friend had supported surcharges, denounced them—because one does not find any agreement between those two right hon. Gentlemen on anything, as far as I can see. Again, the Leader of the Opposition has not told us where he stands between these competing factions. Does he support his ex-Chancellor, who supported surcharges, or his ex-President of the Board of Trade, who denounced them? I will not ask the Leader of the Opposition about some of his other hon. Friends.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that we should have consulted our trading partners. Does he really mean that we should have informed them so that the shock would be less, or does he mean that we should have told them what we had in mind and said that we would not go on with it unless we could secure their good will? If he means the second of the two alternatives, the surcharges could never have been brought into operation and we would not have stopped the bleeding. He knows that the surcharges, as a temporary measure, were necessary. The former Chancellor is much straighter about this.
  The Leader of the Opposition does not like the way that we did it. It is the last refuge of an Opposition which are not quite sure, to say about something, "It is all right to do that, but you should not have done it in that way." The right hon. Gentleman, in his most improbable rôle as scat singer, is proclaiming "'Tain't what you do; it's the way that you do it". We fully understand the feelings of our trade partners on this question. We have emphasised—and I emphasise again—that this is a temporary emergency measure which will be relaxed and then removed at the earliest possible moment. We want to see a month or two's trade figures first. We are always told, quite rightly, by hon. Members opposite that one does not decide what is happening to trade figures on the basis of a single month.
  Let me tell the House what hon. Members opposite would have done, faced with this situation, and with an election behind them. They would have introduced panic measures, as in 1957 and 1961. In 1957 and in 1961, with a situation which was, both on trade
  926
  and payments, incomparably less bad than that which we faced last year, they met the situation with a slamming on of the brakes, with three years stagnation, each time resulting in unemployment and short-time working.
  I am sorry that I have not got to this part of my speech earlier, but there have been rather a lot of interesting points of order. I said that I would answer the points made by the right hon. Gentleman, and I am trying to do so as far as possible in the order in which he raised them.
  I now come to the question of the Concord. As the House knows, we have now decided to go ahead with this project. The right hon. Gentleman argued that we were too hasty in asking for a review of the programme. Were we? Is he saying that any responsible Government, finding that some major item of expenditure, to which their predecessors have committed them, has slipped in time and escalated in cost should not ask for a review of such a programme? The estimates had risen from £150–£170 million when the scheme was announced, in November, 1962, to £275 million less than two years later, with a recognition that further large sums would be necessary to develop the aircraft and engine after initial certification. There was no guarantee against further escalation.
  Let us suppose that the cost continued to escalate and that it rose to £700 million, and then to £1,000 million. Would it then be wrong to ask for a review? At what point is it right to take action in order to protect the taxpayers' interest in these matters? At what point would right hon. Gentlemen opposite consider it to be over-hasty?
  After dealing with one other aspect raised by the right hon. Gentleman I shall come to the wider aspects of the aircraft programme and expenditure, as I promised. First, however, I want to refer, as did the right hon. Gentleman, to the autumn Budget—the November Budget. Unless the right hon. Gentleman is going to say, which he did not, that we should not have increased pensions, he must accept the need for that Budget. [Interruption.] I know that hon. Members opposite do not do things the way that we do them. In the matter of increased

  927
  pensions they would not have taken action. But once it has been decided to increase pensions, they have to be paid for.
  I am willing to give way to the right hon. Gentleman. He made a charge, and he has gained an answer. If he thinks that I am unfair he will no doubt say so. Once we accepted the Pensions Bill we accepted the need for some increased taxation. The right hon. Gentleman has not yet responded to my invitation, which I repeat, to say which items of taxation he would have increased.
  There is another point which I am sure that a number of right hon. Gentlemen opposite will accept, namely, that in addition to raising the money needed for the social services expenditure it was necessary, if we were to extend exports and to contain the rising imports, to make the necessary overall financial provision. This was one of the elements of the right hon. Gentleman's own Budget last April.
  As the House knows, if one is living on imports which one is not paying for, if one fails to achieve one's export targets, things are disinflationary—as long as one can go on doing them one can do it without having to make room in the economy. One does not need budgetary provision for it. But when the nation begins to deploy more of its industrial resources on exports, and more factories produce the goods that we need, so that we do not have to get them on the slate from abroad, we need a bigger Budget surplus. That is what my right hon. Friend's Budget aimed to achieve. [Interruption.] On every question I ask, whenever I want an answer somebody opposite wants me to slip on as quickly as possible to another subject. I can understand that.
  I shall now refer to what the right hon. Gentleman said about the corporation tax and the capital gains tax. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman referred to this matter, and he shall be answered. I was not quite clear whether he supported or opposed the principle of a corporation tax. He was not very clear about it. I do not know whether or not hon. Members opposite support it. Conservative Chancellors have been very much in favour of it. The right hon. and learned Member for Wirral
  928
  (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) announced his support of the principle in his 1961 Budget.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I never announced my support for, or ever examined the possibility of, a corporation tax which would mean double taxation—first, the corporation tax, then a separate tax on distributed dividends.
  The Prime Minister: This is very interesting, because the right hon. and learned Gentleman, a year later, said that he supported this corporation tax, unifying Income Tax and Profits Tax.
  Mr. Lloyd: Unifying them.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, and in his second and last Budget speech he said that he had instructed the Board of Inland Revenue to frame a scheme and to discuss it with professional bodies. He said:
  "We have got beyond the stage of general talk about the desirability…of a single tax and can now look at a possible scheme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1962; Vol. 657,
  c. 972.]
  Mr. Lloyd: A unifying scheme.
  The Prime Minister: If we are to be told by the right hon. and learned Gentleman that to announce in principle a new corporation tax of any kind—whether one supports one kind of corporation tax or another—is causing unsettlement, what was he doing in announcing in two successive years that this was his policy?
  Right hon. Gentlemen on both sides have stressed its great value in encouraging firms to plough back profits for productive investment. No one will deny the need for that. It will be the end to many disreputable tax avoidance devices, like the payment of dividends out of capital allowances, which was scathingly reported on by the Public Accounts Committee last year.
  Again, on the question of a capital gains tax, I was not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman was for it or against it. It has long been the declared policy of this party, and I think that the case for it is fully established, not least in ending the manifest unfairness of a system which, under any Government, imposes a high rate of tax on the top earned incomes and no tax at all on the increments of spending power which arises from unearned capital gains.

  929
  Again on the question of uncertainty, the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral announced his own capital gains tax, such as it was—a poor thing but his own—on 25th July, 1961, and he did not bring forward legislation until 16th April, 1962. And when we hear from the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon that this is causing uncertainty and unsettlement in investment—[HON. MEMBERS: "It is."]—I am not quite sure how the right hon. Gentleman reconciles that with the declared intention of industrialists to increase their investment this year by 10 per cent., and there has been no fall in that compared with three months ago.
  I promised to deal with the question of aircraft procurement. I am sorry that I have been so long in coming to this, but there have been a lot of interruptions from hon. Gentlemen opposite. I hope to be able to give them a statement on this, but if they do not get it, it will be their fault, not mine. As I have already told the House, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is engaged in a detailed round-the-clock, round-the-globe examination of our defence policy, our commitments—[HON. MEMBERS: "Round and round."] I am prepared to leave this and to make the statement on another occasion if hon. Gentlemen interrupt, if they are more interested in the kind of behaviour we have had than in a matter of vital concern to the defences of this country. Some of the points of order we have had, well, really—[HON. MEMBERS: "Get on with it."] I shall be glad to get on with it if hon. Gentlemen will allow me.
  As I have already told the House, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is engaged in a round-the-clock examination of our defence policy, commitments, the total burden, the three rôles we have been trying to discharge without any attempt to determine priority. He is also looking to see what this means in terms of expenditure. He will be reporting to the House in due course, but I think it right to make a statement in broad terms of our intentions concerning military aircraft. But I want to say one or two general words before coming to the question of aircraft.
  As the House knows, right hon. Gentlemen opposite have spent a figure of £20,000 million during the past 13 years
  930
  on defence. Although we did not expect much when we came to office we have been appalled at what we found, and what we have not found. The right hon. Gentleman and some of his supporters have attacked the fact that we have had to call in question some of the vastly expensive programmes on which they had embarked, apparently without thought and certainly without cost control. I submit to the House that it is the duty of any responsible Government, with the responsibility that the Government and this House owe to the taxpayer, to review all such programmes when, as is manifestly the case here, they have flatly got out of timing, out of hand, and costs have increased out of all proportion. But there is a more urgent and overriding consideration even than the control of expenditure.
  The first duty of any Government of any party is to ensure that the nation's defences are adequate and effective, that the nation's security is fully defended. This means that if this House, as a matter of defence or foreign policy, puts British Service men into the field, or into the air, to fulfil national commitments, those who take up those burdens must have the right to feel that they are adequately equipped. Although I intend to give the House some grave figures of costs on the programmes we have inherited, if at the end of the day I felt that our security and the efficiency of our Service men, whether at home or abroad, could be guaranteed only by costs of this magnitude, I should not hesitate today to say so to the House, whatever the implications. But the problem we face is not only, or even primarily, one of cost. It is a question of the time scale and the availability of the necessary equipment. That is what I am dealing with principally this evening.
  The House will recall the many statements, many changes of policy about replacements for the R.A.F. Hunter and the Royal Navy's Sea Vixen. In July, 1963 the project P1154 was going to meet both requirements. By November there was a wobble in policy. In February, 1964, this was all changed and the then Government decided to buy American Phantom aircraft as the Sea Vixen replacement. This was their decision. Meanwhile, the P1154 was to go on to provide a replacement for the Hunter when that was withdrawn from service.

  931
  I have to tell the House that this is not a practicable proposition. It is not so much the question of cost, though the present estimate, made when the aircraft is still only in the design stage, is a very heavy estimate indeed; and, of course, our experiences of other planes and missiles produced over the past few years suggest that estimates made at this design stage invariably escalate sometimes many times. The problem here is that on these present estimated requirements, and on the latest realistic estimate of the remaining life of the Hunter aircraft, the P1154 will not be in service in time to serve as a Hunter replacement. That is the real answer to the right hon. Gentleman, who made some rather glib comments on this this afternoon, when he comes to examine the time scale. We are perfectly prepared, and I keep offering, to place all this information at the disposal of right hon. Gentlemen opposite if they will come and study it. When the right hon. Gentleman studies that, he will find that there is a time gap of some years which no Government can ask either its Service chiefs or its Service men to accept. In these circumstances, on defence grounds alone—quite apart from the cost argument—it will be necessary to extend the late Government's purchasing programme for Phantoms and to use this aircraft as a partial replacement for the Hunter. This is the only way to close the time gap. All of us regret it, but this has been forced on us by the facts.
  They will have British engines and will incorporate as many British components as possible. We are urgently examining the possibility of manufacturing, or at any rate assembling, them, and making some of the parts in this country. We have been urgently surveying the needs of our forces in the light of present revised estimates of commitments. We believe that there is an urgent need for an operational version of P1127, a successful aircraft which, in its present experimental form, is about to go to an American-German-R.A.F. squadron for evaluation by all three countries. As soon as it can be negotiated, a contract will be placed for a limited development programme so that the R.A.F. can have, by the time they need it—it is no good having this wonderful twinkle-in-the-designer's-eye kind of aircraft, we have
  932
  to have them in service when needed—an aircraft which will in fact be first in the field, with vertical take-off for close support of our land forces. We shall see to close control of the cost of this scheme. We are also going into the question of further R. and D. on this, to see whether it can be boosted into something much more substantial.
  The House will be glad to know that after we had examined a wide range of different aircraft, Comets, specially modified to meet the requirements, will be ordered as a replacement for the Shackle-ton Mark II which has given splendid service for many years.
  Now I turn to the transport plane. Hastings and Beverleys are still in service, although we all expressed concern at the time of the Cyprus airlift about their short range. Again, while the proposed HS681 can be developed at a cost—again a very high cost even on the first estimate and which might well escalate, for this also is at its earliest design stage—the fact is that its development was authorised so late that it cannot enter service at a date which will meet the real needs of the Forces. We have therefore—I say this with very great regret—to buy planes that are already in existence, with performance and capabilities—to say nothing of their cost—that are known, and which can be provided in time for the duty for which they are required.
  The range of possibilities is not very great and in our view, after very thorough consideration, there appears to be no alternative to buying the American C130 which, though offering a lower performance than the HS681, can be ready much earlier. The problem is having them there when they are needed.
  There is, of course, a very considerable saving to the Exchequer. Each C130 costs, off the production line, about one-third of the present very early estimate of the cost of the HS681, one-third per plane. And, of course, I think the expectation may well be from past experience that the early estimate of the HS681 will possibly escalate still further. I do not think that the House can really ignore the saving—one-third of the estimated cost—but even if that were not the issue at all, the question of time scale, having it for the right time, is the important one.
  Mr. Lubbock Mr. Lubbock rose—
  The Prime Minister: I should like to complete this point by referring to the Canberra replacement.
  Mr. Lubbock: I was going to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is possible to fit the Lockheed C130 with British engines.
  The Prime Minister: I think that this will be doubtful, because it is currently in production. I know that we are trying to do it for all the planes we may have to buy. I should not like to give the hon. Member an off-the-cuff answer on this matter.
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East) rose—
  The Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Gentleman wants to ask about the Belfast. The Belfast is in production. We are very concerned, as the hon. Member is, about the effect of what I have just announced on the sub-contracting programme for Short and Harlands. We are very much concerned. One of the things which we want to look at—I do not want to raise hopes too much—is the possibility of getting some other subcontracting either as a result of the manufacture in this country of Phantoms or in the matter of some of the other new planes which we have announced, whether the Comet, the Kestrel or one of the others.
  Mr. McMaster: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that assurance, I should like to ask him whether he has really considered the alternatives carefully between the C130 and the Belfast. I am very well informed that the Belfast will do what the C130 will do, and can be delivered as soon.
  The Prime Minister. I hope that the House will accept from me that some of us have spent very many weeks and months on this. I have myself spent 30 or 40 hours on this, not only with my colleagues but with leaders of the aircraft industry. I only wish that I could agree with the hon. Member. I only wish that the Government could feel that the Belfast could do the job which is required. I am afraid that although we feel that there is a place for the Belfasts ordered by the previous Government, we
  934
  have come to the same conclusion as the previous Government about the Belfast's capabilities.
  I will turn to the longer-term problem of the Canberra replacement. In 1958 the Secretary of State for Air announced in the House that it had been decided to develop the TSR2 as a Canberra replacement, that is, as a tactical strike and reconnaissance aircraft, and this was approved. It was at a later stage—the history of this has inevitably been clouded by nuclear controversy—that what the right hon. Gentleman the then Secretary of State for Air called the "nuclear bonus" concept came into being. There has been a certain amount of confusion all along about this, which was increased by the Leader of the Opposition speaking from this Box last March, when he said that nuclear bombers would be phased out by the time that Polaris came in in 1968. The TSR2, at its earliest, would not be in squadron service by that time.
  Few aircraft have been surrounded with greater controversy than the TSR2, not excluding passionate controversy over cost estimates. I shall go no further in that controversy tonight. But there has been criticism of the Government for calling the TSR2 programme into question. I must say, again, that it is the duty of any responsible Government to call into question any programme of this kind as soon as it discovers the facts of costs, of time, to say nothing of possible questions about its capabilities. So far as costs are concerned, the original estimate for R. & D. for this aircraft was £90 million. It has now risen to the region of £300 million and the most authoritative estimate which I can get today for research, design and production is £750 million, which, on an order of 150, would cost £5 million per aircraft or 25 times the cost of the Canberra which it is designed to replace. No one can be frivolous about a question of this kind, when each plane is costing about as much as a pre-war battleship.
  I do not intend to apologise to the House for the time which we have spent on this problem. On grounds of defence, of the cost, the future of the aircraft industry, which has been central in our minds, it was right that this should be examined and re-examined, that all possible options and combination of options

  935
  should be carefully analysed and where possible costed. I want to say that one apparently attractive proposal that we could combine 50 TSR2s with 50, 60 or 100 TFX's or any other kind of plane is—I am quite sure the House will agree once Members have thought about it—not a practicable proposition, because, with the need to have some held back for training or anything else, the number of planes in squadron service, whether here or overseas, would be very much smaller if based on a mixed package than if we had a single package of one or the other.
  The aircraft flew for the first time in October, over a year behind schedule. It has flown a number of times since at slow speeds and, of course, has not begun to be tested as a complete weapons system—for that is what it is—with all the terrain following capabilities for which it was designed. Even at its present stage many technical adjustments are having to be made every week, though many of them, of course, are quite minor. It is still far too early to say whether, operationally, it will succeed or not. Among the problems we have to deal with are those of metal strain in low-level contour flying which exposes the aircraft to very special buffetting. This will mean still more evaluation tests, which are going ahead.
  Now let me say what considerations are in the mind of the Government on the decisions which will have to be taken. I have mentioned the cost. To replace the TSR2 with the nearest equivalent—which would mean going to the United States—would, despite the amount already committed and writing off the millions which have already been spent, certainly save at least £250 million of public money. On the other hand, it would involve additional dollar expenditure, which no Government would lightly undertake. We are also deeply concerned about the effect of any such decision on the aircraft industry, both in the immediate future and further ahead.
  Equally, the decision which, one way or another, must be taken is no easy decision. I am only trying to suggest that there are some very difficult problems here. This is not a matter on which it is easy to make frivolous or short-term
  936
  replies or even one to drag into the centre of political controversy. The decision, when it is taken, must have inevitable reactions on employment in certain areas, not only of the many thousands who are at present engaged on production, but on the much more intractable problem of design teams. I am not normally one to lose sleep, but when I got, as I did, from one of the factories concerned, a letter signed by a large number of design team men and women, with their qualifications, their technical abilities as aerodynamicists, technicians or whatever they may have been, I realised what a decision to cancel the TSR2 would mean for them, with the difficulties of re-employment on similar work in this country. I emphasise that this is not an easy decision. It is an agonising decision and the House must realise it.
  What this House wants to ensure and what the State of our economy demands is a healthy and balanced aircraft industry, an industry which never again becomes virtually dependent for its existence on one highly costly venture of this kind. We have always said that this was a brilliantly conceived and designed aircraft or, rather, a flying weapon system. Whatever the unhappy history of this case, the Government believe that, properly deployed on the right types of work, the aircraft industry has an important and vital rôle to play both in provision for our defences and in its contribution to the national economy. In addition to schemes which I have mentioned for making engines and other components and assembling U.S. designed planes in this country, we have also been discussing urgently with the leaders of the industry those lines of future R. & D. which are best suited to the needs of the industry and of the country in the years which lie ahead.
  One of the basic problems with which we are faced has been the growing R. & D. costs of developing a modern and sophisticated aircraft combined with the relatively small number required for our own Service and for our own purposes. The total cost of R. & D., when it amounts to the figure which I have quoted, divided by the number of aircraft which we have ordered obviously becomes very high compared with what some other countries are able to achieve.
  It is for this reason that we are now examining a number of possibilities for

  937
  joint R. & D. both with the United States and with the French and other Continental partners. In particular, we intend to enter into immediate discussions with the French Government and, if possible, with other European countries about a jet strike trainer, using the variable geometry concept which was first developed in this country by our own people and tragically neglected by us. The House must recognise that R. & D. expenditure is so heavy that joint production rather than separate and costly ventures must be the pattern of the future, and this may apply in the long term increasingly to civil as will as to military aircraft. All these questions will be central to the work of the Plowden Committee. But meanwhile we are going ahead, without waiting, with joint projects with our Continental partners.
  I have indicated the principles which must dominate this critical decision. The future of the aircraft industry, the requirements of our defences, the cost to the taxpayer, our balance of payments: all these are inextricably linked and we cannot at this stage form anything like a final assessment either of the cost of TSR2 or of the cost of certain possible replacements. Still more important, I cannot tell the House that we can at this stage take a final decision either about the capabilities or about the time scale of the TSR2 or whether it will ever succeed at all.
  For those reasons, there is no one in the House or in the country who can suggest that it was not the bounden duty of the Government to submit this whole problem to a searching and factual examination. I hope that no one will criticise that. Equally, I hope that I have said enough in relation to cost, performance and uncertainty about alternatives, and not least certain recent problems encountered in development and testing, to show that this decision cannot be taken today.
  We have therefore decided, first, against the background of our long-term commitments and requirements, that we need to have the immediate evaluation of the future TSR2, to which I have referred, which we have not yet got in terms of some of the technical problems which I have mentioned. Secondly, we need an authoritative estimate from the firms concerned of the final cost of the
  938
  aircraft, backed by the strictest contractual conditions as to price, performance and delivery. We cannot go on with estimates. We shall have to have fixed prices, guaranteeed, with penalty clauses on delivery and the rest, if we are not to put the time scale still further back. We must have that before we can decide.
  Thirdly, we need more information than we have at present about the certainty, capability and cost of certain possible alternatives. This information will take some more months to assemble. As soon as we have the minimum required on which to take this important decision, we shall do so and inform the House. Meanwhile, TSR 2 will go on. When that decision is taken, as I have said, it will be against a background of our operational defence requirements, of the cost to the taxpaper, and of the future of our aircraft industry.
  Meanwhile, the House should know that the combined effect of the other decisions which I have mentioned just now will enable us to save at least £300 million over the next ten years in terms of Government expenditure, even on the basis of present cost estimates of the planes mentioned, and taking no account of further escalations on British aircraft. Moreover, as far as these decisions are concerned, the R.A.F. will be guaranteed delivery at the right time of the aircraft which it needs to discharge its operational rôles.
  Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: When the Prime Minister refers to a possible saving of £250 million, is he taking into account the cancellation charge on TSR 2? Is the figure based on Mark I or Mark II TFX? In referring to the TSR 2, the Prime Minister will agree that the weapon system, which has been carried in another type of aircraft, has made good progress in that aircraft.
  The Prime Minister: Of course, full allowance was made for the cancellation charge and other charges and all things of that kind. In addition, no credit at all has been taken for the very large sum of money which as already gone into the aircraft and which will be written-off. That, of course, is money down the drain if the project is cancelled. It is probably money down the drain anyway in terms of the cost about which we are thinking. The point about the TFX Mark I and Mark

  939
  II was the point which I had in mind when I referred to alternatives. We still do not know what the production programme will be for either, whether Mark I will be dropped for Mark II, what is the cost and what the operational capabilities of either may be. We must know more about these things before a decision is taken. Meanwhile, TSR 2 goes on, but the House should bear in mind that going on will cost the taxpayer about £4 million a month while it goes on, possibly to no end result.
  Had there not been a rather long delay at the beginning of the debate, I wanted to refer to some of the major developments in production and export policy. I was not able to make a statement to the House about exports although, as the House knows, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade made a very full statement outside the House when the House stood adjourned last week. As part of the national development plan with which my right hon. Friend will be dealing tonight, top priority must now be given to increasing the proportion of our national production going to new investment and to increasing the proportion of that investment which takes the form of the most modern, particularly automative equipment.
  A century ago we were the workshop of the world. Now our task is to be the machine shop, the tool room, above all the R. and D. centre of the world. This means a massive programme of technological advance and of the application of the results of that advance to accepted and time-honoured processes of industry. It means a new attack on the problem of the abuse of monopoly and of restrictive practices.
  The Government must be able to satisfy themselves that the public interest is advanced and that industrial efficiency does not suffer, even though competition is reduced, by monopoly or mergers. We intend to introduce this Session important new legislation in this field. Its purpose will be to increase the size of the Monopolies Commission, to authorise it to work in panels, and to enable the Government to ask it to investigate mergers and also monopolies and restrictive practices, such as price-fixing, in the provision of services. It will also provide new and stronger powers for the Government in dealing
  940
  with mergers and with monopolistic abuses.
  But more than monopoly legislation will be needed to turn this part of the statement of intent, signed by my right hon. Friend, into a reality. A great deal of thought, and urgent thought, has been devoted on both sides of industry to problems of the most efficient use of human resources—our greatest national asset—including the question of industrial relationships. The Government consider that the time has now come to carry this forward further.
  I am able to inform the House that Her Majesty the Queen has been pleased to approve the recommendation that a Royal Commission should be appointed with the following terms of reference:
  "To consider relations between managements and employees and the rôle of trade unions and employers' associations in promoting the interests of their members and in accelerating the social and economic advance of the nation, with particular reference to the law affecting the activities of these bodies; and to report."
  I am glad to be able to anounce also that the Queen has approved the appointment of Lord Donovan as Chairman of the Royal Commission.
  What we are really debating today—and I am sorry that I had to spend so much time on the aircraft problem, although I think the House wanted to know our position on this—behind the party barrage of censure Motion and Amendment is the survival of our country and the resumption of purposive economic advance. And what this means, above all, is a readiness to accept, to welcome, change. We regarded the nation's decision which led to the formation of this Government as a mandate for change. The Measures in the Queen's Speech last November, the Measures now before the House, and those which will shortly be before it, are a fulfilment of that mandate. But still more—and this is the test—it must be in our industry, in our factories, in our board rooms, in our bank parlours, in trade union branches, in the negotiating chamber, in our docks, on the railways, in our distribution system, that the process of change must be felt.
  What we all in the House will insist is that the change be democratic and under the control of this House; what we—especially this side of the House—will

  941
  demand is that it be socially just, purposive and fair. This is what we have tried to achieve, despite the enormous difficulties which we have faced. As I have said, those difficulties have forced some backward steps on us—I mentioned the tariff surcharge—which some will seek to turn to their short-term advantage. But that will not deter us from the task to which we have set our hand. A hundred days. A thousand days will be needed, and more, before we can solve the inheritance of five thousand days. Let no one, at home or abroad, doubt our determination or our ultimate success.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. J. Grimond: I believe that many people when they study the debate will be thankful that there is a third party in this country. We have spent most of the afternoon ploughing over one of the most miserable stories of economic defeat which this country has suffered. We have gone over and have been forced to go over a record of muddle. Only in the last half an hour of the Prime Minister's speech did he turn to the future, and it is about the future that the House ought to be concerned.
  We are always told that the Conservative Party is a party of business men and patriots. Yet it left office at the last possible moment, having run up a deficit of over £700 million. The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) has told us that he was worried about this and that he had had remedies prepared. We were told that they were exactly the same remedies that the Government have put into effect; they were compiled while the right hon. Member for Barnet was at the Treasury and they were there for the Labour Government when they took office.
  But this afternoon we have heard from the Leader of the Opposition that he does not consider that this was a serious matter at all; on the contrary, he practically planned it. The impression he gave was—why were we worried; why should anyone be concerned about the total failure of British exports; the Conservative Party knew that this was happening; it was taking no steps about it; why should we have been concerned at all about this deficit; of course the Tories knew it was going to happen and if only they had been returned to office con-
  942
  fidence would have flowed back to the country and all would have been well. What an extraordinary beginning to a Motion of censure and what an extraordinary defence of the record of a party which has been in charge of our affairs not for 100 days but for 13 years.
  Now about the future. We are always asked by the Conservative Party to state what our policy is. Today we heard not one single word about what the Opposition's policy is. I believe that it will not be very long before the Conservative Party very much misses the new Master of Trinity. I am sure that I speak for the whole of the Conservative Party, as well as for the Liberal Party, when I express our regret that he has departed from us. I only hope that, now that he is freed from his shadow membership of the Cabinet, he will feel a little freer to comment more often on the political scene. I look forward to a constant stream of remarks and encouragement to the Conservatives emanating from the lodgings of Trinity College.
  Another feature of Conservative tactics is always that nothing is their fault. We were told that the reason why the Labour Government are kept in office is all because of the wicked Liberals. I find this very, very flattering, but in point of fact I must point out the inaccuracy of it, because, whatever the headlines in the Conservative papers say, however many of the Opposition vote this evening we cannot defeat the Government. This is a matter of mathematics. It does not even need matchsticks.
  I will tell the House another reason why we will not defeat the Government—because it is the very last thing that the Conservatives want to do. What they want to have is a Labour Government in office and the Liberals to blame. There is nothing that terrifies the Opposition Chief Whip more than if he thinks there is going to be a near Division. He rushes out and people are locked in lavatories. I must say to the other parties, "We are not going to have anything to do with you, nor with you either"; but if there comes a time when our combined forces may defeat the Government I shall look for a bigger turnout from the Conservative Party than we have had in our debates so far.
  Another reason which the Leader of the Opposition told us this afternoon is that

  943
  a honeymoon period has been going on. Not even I ever suggested that I was on a honeymoon, either with the First Secretary or with the Prime Minister. We are told that up to now the Conservative Party has been helping and encouraging the Government. I hope that the Government enjoyed it, but they can hardly then complain about other people keeping the Government in office.
  I turn, before I come to the main part of my speech, to what we have heard from the Prime Minister about the aircraft industry. I would hope that at some point one or two questions will be answered. First, many decisions seem to have been taken before the Plowden Committee has considered the industry. It would be helpful if the House could be assured that the work of the Plowden Committee will not be done before it has reported. Secondly, as regards the Belfast, am I not right in saying that its cost is not very much more than that of its Lockheed equivalent and its performance much better? Thirdly, is it not true that, whatever economies may eventually come from changes in the policy on aircraft, we cannot see any diminution of the defence budget for many years?
  I believe that this debate should be about the future, and principally about the future economy of the country. But it may be relevant to consider for a few moments what has gone wrong in the past. The real indictment of the Tory Government is that when things were easy for this country they did not seek to put right the fundamental defects in our economy. After all, things were very easy. World trade was booming during much of the period of office of the late Government. Other countries have expanded at a phenonemal rate compared with us. The Tories cannot complain that they had any drastic international economic difficulties during their period of office, but they did not take advantage of the sun when it shone to put right the fundamental defects in our economic structure. This is the real indictment of the Tories.
  What do I mean by the fundamental defects in our economic structure? First, the home market was too soft: there was not enough competition. Secondly, we failed to get into Europe. We never
  944
  tackled the problems of regional imbalance and industrial relations. I very much hope that the present Government, whatever they may have been doing up to now, will bend their mind to certain of the obvious defects in the economy.
  Right at the head of the list I put this. We must make up our minds where the steam is to come from to drive the economy. What is to be the driving power in the British economy? What is going to make the docker work on Sundays? What is going to make the chap with an idea chance his arm and put it into operation? I do not dissent from the proposition that an incomes policy may be a necessary element in our economic structure, but it will not put steam into the economy. Most of the wealth in this country is made by private enterprise. Private enterprise works on the profit motive. So long as this is the sort of economy we run, we must show people, from the docker right up to the man in the board room, that there are incentives and that they will get better rewards for extra work, more enterprise, and more courage in taking decisions. I refer to the men who go out and open up new markets as much as or even more than the men who sit at home.
  As for the incomes policy, I hope that it will not be an instrument mitigating against change. I want to see the sort of thing that went on at Fawley, the type of agreement where one gets rid of a whole lot of restrictive practices in return for a big increase in wages all round. I want to see a reduction in direct taxation. I want to see all sorts of incentives, and I welcome those already given, to people who go to the export markets, which are not fun as once we were told but are hard work. One view only is held in the country at the moment and that is that we must work a free enterprise economy.
  I believe that we must look again at Europe. One of the fundamental reappraisals which the Government should be making now, and I hope that we are doing it, is of our position in the world in general. Where I disagree with much said from the Front Bench opposite is that I do not believe that our rôle is to act as a general policeman. I am also sceptical of a sort of open-ended obligation east of Suez. We should get used to the fact that the route to the

  945
  East lies across America and that bases in the Indian Ocean are becoming much less important. We should concentrate on the rather narrow obligations which are all that we can fulfil. I am convinced that in the next two or three years this country must go back to Europe. Let hon. Members consider what was said today about the aircraft industry and the inevitable logic of events. The Prime Minister said quite rightly that we have not a big enough market to support our aircraft and electronic industries. Where are we to look? There is only one place and that is across the Channel. A movement is going on in Europe whether Britain pushes her head in the sand or does not, and we should be very foolish to behave like ostriches.
  I hope that the Prime Minister will make every effort to explore the thinking of President de Gaulle and to convince him that the British do not believe that they are not Europeans. I hope that we shall have a conference on the whole future of the electronics industry of Europe, including our own, and that we shall review the whole field of defence and foreign affairs, as N.A.T.O. is reformed, moving towards the idea of a European diplomatic or political community.
  We must tackle restrictive practices. I welcome what has been said today. But we must go further. Some restrictive practices should be made illegal. We should look very closely at those industries which are still protected by high tariffs and yet have a near monopoly of the home market. I know that the Government have said that the 15 per cent. surcharge is the last swig from the bottle of protection, but this is always said by drunkards. They always have one more last drink, but I hope that the Government will resist the temptation to keep not only the surcharge but tariffs for a moment longer than is essential.
  Incentive is the key to everything that we want to do to encourage the hoped for 4 per cent. growth in productivity. We cannot build roads and hospitals out of a deficit. We must get back to expansion and no one knows that better than those on the Front Bench opposite. This is not going to be easy, but they must put at the top of their priorities expansion and a drive in the economy, and a great many good things must wait
  946
  until we have earned the wealth to pay for them. The expansion of the economy should be the No. 1 priority and I trust that when the Government consider this matter they will give a high priority to the abolition of restrictive practices and monopolies, to widening our market in Europe, and putting more steam behind the economy.
  Mr. Dan Jones: When the right hon. Gentleman talks about restrictive practices, will he give some attention to restrictive practices among the professional classes and the way in which they affect the economy?
  Mr. Grimond: I will not do that now. I am already in hot water for doing it. The Liberal Party is full of lawyers and I have already been extremely critical of the restrictive practices of the Bar.
  I do not believe that there would be anything dishonourable or dishonest in the Labour Party reorientating its priorities. There seems to be a feeling in the Labour Party that there is something dishonest about its postponing its proposals on steel. I do not believe this. The Government must broaden their basis of support in the country. If they are to do that they must go forward with the sort of Measures which will command a wider support. There is a series of Measures, some of which were included in the Queen's Speech, which will do just that. There is the question of regionalism and the attack on restrictive practices. I want to see these Measures put at the head of the programme and those Measures for which there is no wide support put at the bottom or dropped out altogether.
  In the last few weeks there has been a great deal of euphoria in the country and many things have been said about the British character which cannot be supported by the facts. It is not always true that the British respond to leadership or that they like to be told the truth. They have been told the truth about the economy again and again. Sir Winston Churchill gave them lead enough before the war but they did not respond. It is no good going on making incantations and exhortations. There has been far too much talk, promise and generalisation from the Government and too little action.

  947
  The type of action that appealed to me was the decision to stop arms going to South Africa. When that was announced one could almost feel the effect in the House. We were so used to having announcements of this kind carefully followed by conditions and clauses in small type covered up to mean not this year or next year that when the Government said that they would not send arms to South Afrcia one could hear a sharp intake of breath in the House because that was the kind of thing that had been lacking here for many years. These were precise words followed by precise action. Words of themselves have no effect on the British people. They are like water off a duck's back. But though they may not like actions at the time they may get to like them. Even Dr. Beeching is getting quite popular, and when he is getting popular that is certainly something.
  Let us, therefore, have the clear priority that the one thing that the country must do is to generate wealth, encourage exports and get the economy right. It should be accepted that the major section if not all of wealth-producing industry is run by private enterprise and that the tax system should be reformed to encourage it. We have spent far too little time in considering whether we can carry the present enormous public service on the back of the economy which we now have, but since we are doing it let us by every means encourage production by the entrepreneur, the scientists, the technicians and the men on the shop floor, and let us reward them by reforms in our tax system. Let us bring out the good points and not only the unpopular points in the proposed reforms. Sometimes when one hears the Chancellor speaking one would think that the system was designed to whip industry. Changes in taxation ought to allow us to give incentives to the right sort of people. If this is done and if these promises are followed by action and we get away from that disastrous treadmill to which we got back last autumn, with higher Bank Rate, 15 per cent. surcharge and a credit squeeze, we can use the break in the clouds which I am sure will come for a short time to tackle the inherent weaknesses in the economy.
  This Parliament may be short. I have no fear of a General Election. I do not
  948
  think that the people mind a General Election. Rather than have this Parliament wearing itself out on futile arguments, let us have a General Election by all means. I would much prefer to have an election than that we should sit here bickering, passing Motions of censure on one another and getting no business done. I do not believe that the country would welcome a Parliament which simply frittered itself away in party manoeuvre as we have done today. I do not agree with the Government about everything. If we Liberals did, we would be Socialists. But there is a job to be done, and some of the things which the Government say they will do we shall support because we think that the country needs a good dose of radicalism. Unless it gets it, the future will be very bleak. Britain cannot afford to return to the 1964 type of Conservative Government. The Conservatives know this, and they know full well that if they went to the country now under the leadership of last autumn they would be beaten, and, this time, beaten squarely.
  6.20 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Williams: I realise that a Motion of censure is hardly the ideal Motion on which to be making one's maiden speech, but I should like the House to know that I have, on two previous occasions, endeavoured to make my maiden speech, but, unfortunately, I have been too far back in the queue of new Members. I hope that, within the context of the Motion before us, I shall be forgiven if towards the end of my speech, I make some points which may, perhaps, be interpreted as mildly controversial.
  Before I come to my main theme, however, I wish in all sincerity to say that I am extremely proud to have the opportunity of speaking in the House of Commons. I realise very well that this is a privilege and an honour enjoyed by very few. For this reason, the House will understand that my present situation slightly overawes me, as, indeed, does one's first entry into the House. I can only hope that today's trial will pass as pleasantly as did my first day here when I was sworn in. My favourite recollection of the House so far is that, within the first five minutes of my sitting on one of these benches, I turned to one of the longest-standing Members of my party and

  949
  said to him, looking at the Government benches, "After 13 years, it must be wonderful to be sitting on this side". He replied, "It is wonderful. The sun gets in your eyes on the other side".
  I am particularly proud to represent a constituency in Swansea. Swansea has a radical tradition, so radical, indeed, that it even departed on one occasion, for a short time, from its own tradition and temporarily flirted with the forces of Conservatism. Now, however, it has realised its error and returned to the true radical fold.
  Swansea as an industrial port is, perhaps, unique. It combines many advantages. It has the amenities of a city, although it is only a medium-sized town, with the traditional friendliness which one associates with a smaller Welsh village and, at the same time, it offers the pleasures of a seaside resort. For this reason, it is understandable that it has been seen as an ideal location for many new firms.
  The people of Swansea, like the people of Wales, are politically sophisticated, and, speaking as a politician, I suppose that that means that they vote in the right direction. Because they are sophisticated, they will regard today's Motion of Censure with considerable scepticism. They will have in mind that, for every single day which we have been on the Government side, hon. and right hon. Members opposite had nearly 50. They will ask themselves a series of questions in connection with this debate. They will ask what Wales has had from the 100 days of Labour Government, and, for answer, they will point to the Secretary of State for Wales, to the pledge on leasehold reform, to the machinery for regional planning which is being set up, and to the promise of a new town for Wales.
  The people of Swansea will ask themselves what Wales got from the 4,700 days of Conservative Administration. Did we get a Secretary of State or his equivalent? All we got was a Minister whom we had to share with the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and who, by some peculiar quirk of geographical convenience, happened to be the right hon. Gentleman who sits for a Yorkshire constituency. For this reason, we can, perhaps, regard the present situation on the opposite benches as an improvement. At least, the Opposition have got as far
  950
  as Hereford. They are getting warm, and, in the distant future, we may even see a Welsh Member on the Conservative benches speaking for Wales. In the meantime, the people of Wales will, understandably, keep in mind that we have a Secretary of State whose single responsibility is the wellbeing of Wales, a Secretary of State with a seat in the Cabinet in his own right. They will remember that this move was opposed by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and they will ask whether that opposition means that, if the Conservatives were ever returned to power, they would abolish the office of Secretary of State for Wales and give Wales once more a part-time Minister to look after its interests.
  They will ask whether anything was done during the 4,700 Conservative days about leasehold reform, a subject so important to Wales. They will remember that no promise was made and they will recall the speeches which came from the responsible right hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Minister of Housing and Local Government told us that there was no evidence of hardship being caused by leasehold interests. I suppose that, in a sense, one can say that this is correct if one does not count losing one's home or the ownership of one's home as hardship. But, of course, we on this side do not share that view. The people of Wales will remember, also, the Minister's speech in Cardiff when he said that legislation was too heavy a weapon to use against a few ground landlords. But a heavy weapon is better than no weapon at all, which is all we were offered by the Conservatives when they were in power. In any case, to say that only a few ground landlords are involved is to misrepresent the magnitude of the problem. The fact that they are few in number does not undermine their importance. A few of them happen to own, as companies, hundreds of freeholds. Therefore, legislation is all the more necessary, and it must not be forgotten that every individual ground landlord is, by the nature of his contract, a monopolist. It is essential that something be done, therefore, to equalise the balance of bargaining power in favour of the leaseholder.
  Did Wales have any planning or the benefits of planning under the Conservatives? Did we have our fair share of the new prosperity talked about so much by

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  right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite? During the election, the Minister for Welsh Affairs said that Wales did have its fair share. But look at the facts. During the 13 years of Conservative Administration, the number of jobs in Wales increased by only half as much as it did in England. There was a 5·3 per cent. increase in the number of jobs in Wales, and in England and Wales taken together the increase was 9·6 per cent.
  The people of Wales will ask whether anything was done to stop depopulation, the problem which we are now trying to meet with our new town. Again, they will look at the facts, remembering that over 43,000 Welshmen had to leave Wales during the 13 years of Conservative rule. Moreover, the rate of depopulation in Mid-Wales actually doubled in that time.
  Did any benefits accrue to Wales from the fact that the Minister for Welsh Affairs was, coincidentally, the Minister of Housing? Did it mean that, during the period of Conservative Government, the housing problem of Wales was solved? The answer must be an overwhelming "No". The statistics are most damning. In 1954, 15,800 houses were built in Wales. Four years later, in 1958, not 15,000 but 10,000 houses were built—two for every three. In the following year, 10,000 were built, in the next year 11,000, and in the next year 12,000. In fact, one had to wait 10 years before the Conservative Administration could ever reach the output of houses which it achieved in 1954. On the basis of the 1954 output, this means that in the six years from 1957 to 1963, Wales lost the equivalent of one whole year's output of housing. This was despite the fact that we were in a period when the building industry was expanding.
  I suggest that the House can hardly wonder that Wales, far from censuring the Labour Government, will welcome the first 100 days of Labour office. As for the criticism that the action has been hasty, the people of Wales will make the point that, by comparison with the pantechnicon progress made by the Conservatives, any motion whatsoever must appear today as unseemly haste. They will reject the argument that our policy has been ill-considered, and will counter with the argument that Welsh problems during the last 13 years of
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  Conservative Administration, so far from being ill-considered, were, unfortunately, unconsidered.
  6.30 p.m.
  Sir Derek Walker-Smith: In accordance with the pleasant tradition of the House, it is now my agreeable duty and privilege to extend to the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Alan Williams) the congratulations of the House on making his maiden speech. I am sure that I speak for all hon. Members in saying how much we have enjoyed the felicitous speech which he has contributed to or proceeding.
  The hon. Member began by saying that it was perhaps a bold thing, and it is, indeed, perhaps, an unorthodox thing, to make one's maiden speech on a Motion of censure, but, having taken the bold course, he succeeded very well in steering his barque between the Scylla of irrelevance and the Charybdis of controversy. If just from time to time in the very interesting observations that he made it looked as if he were in either danger, it might perhaps be that he was coming a little closer to the Charybdis of controversy; but after all, this is a censure debate, and I am sure that that was a wise choice.
  The hon. Member touched on a variety of matters of great interest to his constituents, and, indeed, to Wales and the whole country generally, and I am sure that the House will look forward to hearing him again on these matters, and I myself look forward with particular pleasure to his contributions on the vexed problems of leasehold reform in which I have long taken a close interest.
  This debate on a Motion of censure on the Government after 100 days of their conduct in office is exceptional in the sense that if as a result of the debate hurt ensues to the Government—on the facts, it is very difficult to see how any other result can be arrived at—it will be in the nature of a self-inflicted wound in that there is nothing in our constitutional practice or Parliamentary timetable to compel an Administration to subject itself to express assessment and adjudication at the end of this precise period or, indeed, any particular period.
  Mr. Dan Jones: The Government have a sense of dynamism.
  Sir D. Walker-Smith: A sense of dynamism does not necessarily mean that the Government must emulate the antics of the Gadarene swine; they also showed a sense of dynamism, but they showed it at the wrong moment and in the wrong direction.
  Sooner or later, all Governments, be they good or bad, have to submit themselves to judgment, and it would be very difficult to think that at the end of the day the present Government, unless there is a miraculous improvement, would not sustain conviction. But the curious thing about the present trial—because the Government stand on trial for their conduct in office over the 100 days—is that it is an occasion of their own contrivance. It is by their own will and their own action in formulating the 100-day period that they stand on trial at this time. There is, after all, nothing unusual in the spectacle of a prisoner standing his trial, but it is unusual to the point of being unique to have a prisoner who insists on erecting his own dock and, indeed, on climbing into it, although in the ordinary way his case would not come into the calendar at that time.
  The Government have, I think, a weak case, and it has been made no more convincing by the speech this afternoon of their chosen advocate, the Prime Minister. His speech in defence of his 100 days put me in mind of the young barrister who, having made a very long and eloquent plea in mitigation on behalf of his client, the accused, was somewhat disconcerted to hear the judge say, "Before I heard your learned counsel in mitigation I was minded to put you on probation, but now I feel I have no alternative but to send you to prison."
  I would give a great deal to know the secret thoughts of the Prime Minister and his colleagues at present in regard to the formulation of the 100 days. What then no doubt seemed to be a bright idea has turned out to be the albatross of the present Government. It was always historically inept for their purpose, although in the event it has been strikingly prophetic of what has happened. The 100 days in history were, of course, Napoleon's 100 days from Elba to Waterloo, days of doubt, difficulty, decline, disaster and defeat. Those were the 100 days in history,
  954
  though I suppose it is fair to say that if Napoleon had possessed the imaginative ingenuity of the Prime Minister he might on the morrow of the battle have sent a dispatch showing how, in spite of superficial impressions to the contrary, it was really a great victory.
  It was not only the historical judgment of the Prime Minister that was at fault. It was an act of vainglory and boasting to make the pronouncement about the 100 days. It was an act of hubris, which was bound to attract, as the Greek tragedies would have told the right hon. Gentleman, its fate in the end; and if the right hon. Gentleman was not going to take warning from the Greek tragedies, then at least he could have paid regard to the wise counsel given in the Book of Kings:
  "Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off."
  The fact is that the 100-days concept has caused, or at any rate certainly substantially contributed to, the sorry state of affairs which has overtaken the country in the last few months. In the ordinary way a Government start their period of administration in an atmosphere of reasonable calm, and indeed, good will. They have an opportunity to play themselves in, which is appropriate in a cricketing nation. That Governments do normally start in this way is appropriate. It is part of our democratic system, and part, I suppose, of the sporting spirit to see what the other side can do, and, indeed, it is probably also a part-heritage from the practice of the later part of the nineteenth century when there was a sort of turn and turn about, an alternation, which came to be taken almost for granted—six years of Gladstone followed by six years of Disraeli or Salisbury, as the case might be.
  That is not a bad working system, at any rate in an ideal democracy, because the longer one spends in politics the more difficult it is to accept holus-bolus the party convention that an absolute monopoly of wisdom is vested in one particular section of people. However, perhaps that is a theme not very suitable to a censure debate and to be treated as strictly parenthetical at the present time.
  Be that as it may, there is much merit in a calm beginning to any period of Government. It enables right hon.

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  Gentlemen who have been in Opposition to get the feel of administration, which is a very different thing. It enables them to test what can only be the theories and aspirations of Opposition against the hard rock of practicality. It enables them to apply Cavour's well-known maxim—le tact des choses possibles, which is ordinarily translated as the "art of the possible" but is perhaps better rendered as the "feel of the possible". This is something one cannot do in Opposition but which can only be got by actual experience in Whitehall.
  If this be the case in ordinary circumstances, how much more was it the case last autumn when those who took office were necessarily untried and untested in administration because, by the will of the electorate, they had spent 13 years in Opposition and the sum total of their administrative experience was necessarily very small.
  I remember an article in the Economist a few years ago which said that Ministers required six months to get out of their administrative nappies, as the phrase went. Right hon. Members of this Government have refused a period of six months, of six weeks or even of six days for that indispensable if rather inelegant and inconvenient period. I will not follow up, though tempted to do so, the possible elaboration of the metaphor because that might lead one into difficulties, besides trespassing on the time of the House, but I will say that not only have right hon. Gentlemen opposite sought to run before they can walk; they have climbed out of the playpen—indeed, some of the more exuberant of them started to break up parts of the playpen—even before they could toddle.
  The effect of changing the ordinary custom of a quiet period at the start of the Government has been to create a feverish climate ill-suited to calm decision and dispassionate judgment. Speed rather than sagacity has become the criterion of the decisions of Ministers, and recklessness rather than reasonableness has been the hallmark of their conduct.
  A seventeenth century statesman observed that when it is not necessary to change it is necessary not to change. That may seem dull and uninspiring doctrine to modern progressive minds but at least one would think that it is better than that false syllogism to which I referred before
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  Christmas as animating the conduct of the present Government—"something must be done; this is something, therefore let us do it."
  This country is particularly ill-suited to this feverish approach of the so-called 100 days. In any country Nemesis would be bound to overtake such an approach sooner or later; but circumstances make it certain that in this country fate overtakes any Government which transgresses more quickly and more completely than anywhere else. The reason lies in the particular characteristics of this country.
  We are more dependent on world conditions and world confidence than any other country. We have no great land mass economy like the United States or Soviet Union that can insulate us against the shifts and shocks of changing world conditions and opinions. We are a country depending for our well-being on our exports and, in particular, on the invisible element in our exports—banking, insurance, merchanting, services and so on, all of which depend in a particular degree on confidence.
  It is certain that, whatever else one can nationalise, one cannot nationalise confidence. But one can bruise it and break it very easily. That being so, any Government of this country, with our razoredged economy, must tread their path with prudence and sensitivity. It is not a matter of choice or of party preference; it is something imposed by economic fact and inescapable circumstances.
  As we know, Nemesis has hastened after this Government with sure foot and accelerating speed. In the great days of Lord Chatham's Administration, it was said that a man had to get up very early in the morning if he was not to miss news of the latest great victory. Under this Administration a man has to get up very early in the morning if he is not to miss news of the most recent misfortune.
  The prime causes of these misfortunes are clear. There are three. First, the 15 per cent. surcharge and, in particular, the method of its imposition with its apparent indifference to international obligations. Secondly, the stress that was laid on Britain's difficulties in justifying the surcharge and its manner of imposition. Thirdly, the interim Budget.
  We can, of course, agree to differ about individual provisions in the Budget—whether we think them to be good or

  957
  bad—but the inescapable fact is that, in the objective eyes of overseas observers, that Budget was judged irrelevant to the real and immediate needs of the country; and by creating uncertainty about the tax position the Chancellor and his colleagues eroded confidence at the very moment when it was vital to the well-being of the economy that it should be promoted and sustained.
  Of course, the surcharge and the reasons given in justification of it and the stress on Britain's difficulties reacted upon each other and reinforced each other. To justify the surcharge it was necessary to stress the difficulties. To stress the difficulties eroded confidence and created the very situation that the surcharge was intended to avert.
  Mr. Robert Maxwell: Where, amongst these misfortunes, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman place the open invitation by his right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) to businessmen of this country, when he joined Kleinwort Benson Ltd., to start a run on sterling? How does the right hon. and learned Gentleman justify the fact that, of the £900 million sterling sold short, £600 million was due to the actions of British businessmen at the invitation of the right hon. Member for Barnet?
  Sir D. Walker-Smith: I am certain that my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) gave no such invitation as this broad paraphrase put forward by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell). No doubt if the hon. Gentleman had addressed his question to my right hon. Friend, my right hon. Friend would have been able to have told him in the first place precisely what he did say and do and, secondly, precisely where the hon. Gentleman was wrong.
  I want for a moment to turn to the reference in the Amendment to the remedial measures on which we are asked to rely. First of all, I suppose that it covers those remedial measures which have already been taken, and these, as I have sought to show and as the House well knows, have aggravated rather than ameliorated the situation. Secondly, there are remedial measures in the context of the immediate legislation going on. One finds little of value in that. This week's business, apart from today, is hardly of
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  a nature to make any epoch-making change in the economy of the country. For example, there is a Superannuation (Amendment) Bill in store and while can readily understand the interest of right hon. Gentlemen opposite in the subject of superannuation, having regard to their likely early retirement, it is not a major matter.
  It is apparent that we have to look to the future to see what these remedial measures are. I make this one reference to what the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister said about the aircraft industry. What he said and the figures he gave will, I am sure, be closely studied by my right hon. and hon. Friends who are especially charged with the surveillance of these matters on behalf of the Opposition. No doubt they will call the right hon. Gentleman to account in debate and will apply these tests of operational necessity, the saving of the taxpayers' money and the well-being of the aircraft industry—all of them proper tests.
  I will say only this now. It is a well-known fact that the civil part of the aircraft industry depends in large measure on the military part and that the aircraft industry as a whole is the spearhead of a much wider technological development. Therefore, there is a great deal at stake. First it must be proved that the money will be saved and then, if that be proved, it must be shown that it is not too great a price to pay in terms of British industry, British exports, British jobs, British prestige and Britain's future.
  For the future, two main so-called remedial measures are already held out for the attraction of the country. They are land and steel, the Gog and Magog of the Socialist theology. About land I agree that there is a problem. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] I said so in the last Parliament, when hon. Members opposite were not here. I will go further and say that I do not think that the Conservative land policy was as good as it could be. Unfortunately, that does not mean that Labour policy will not be as bad as it can be. Though there is a problem here and though there is no doubt some action which could profitably be taken, I am very much afraid that here again the Government will apply their false syllogism of "Something must be done; this is something, let us do it."

  959
  If in order to solve the problem of betterment the Government put forward land policies which have the effect of distorting the market in land, drying up the provision of land, frustrating good development and expropriating property, it will be a classic case of imposing a great and certain detriment in pursuit of a small and hypothetical gain, a classic case of burning down the house to get roast pig.
  When these land measures are produced I will certainly, if I am fortunate enough to catch the eye of Mr. Speaker, then have some contribution to make—[Interruption.]—and I do not think that my background of experience and knowledge on this subject will make me less fitted to contribute than the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) who is new to the House and who is such a persistent sedentary interrupter. No doubt he will learn in time.
  Sir Robert Cary: Now steel.
  Sir D. Walker-Smith: Surely steel, which has served the interests of this country and in general our great engineering industries for so long and so well is above all something to which Lord Falkland's dictum as to change should apply in present circumstances. For any Government to press on in present circumstances with their measures for the nationalisation of steel is to combine risk and irrelevance in a degree which is explicable only on the old basis that those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. This is a clear case of back to the old devotion to dogma for dogma's sake, and this is very disappointing. In spite of all the efforts at education and modernisation, the fact is clear that Clause 4 is still the No. 9 of the Labour Party, still the universal prescription for all economic ills which, in spite of every experience to the contrary and every demonstration of its non-therapeutic and even dangerous qualities, Socialists insist on using indiscriminately, even to the point of industrial death.
  Right hon. Gentlemen forming the present Administration are an amiable and cultured body of gentlemen, with Oxford degrees, diplomas from the London School of Economics—and I am sure that the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr.
  960
  Albu) is one of them—but this is only a surface veneer when it comes to the nationalisation of the steel industry. Scratch a Socialist Minister—and, thanks to the Ministers of the Crown Bill, there is ample scope for such an exercise—and there will be found a good aboriginal, flat earth fundamentalist. All over the world eager technocrats and dedicated industrialists are pressing forward on the confident assumption that the world is round and that it moves, but somehow the Treasury Bench remains obstinately deaf to the good news. Ministers are still applying the flat earth policies of early Socialism. The new Socialism is the old shibboleths writ large and Socialist Ministers are the contemporary Bourbons who have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.
  If these are the remedial measures—and these are all we have been told exist under that head—they will be applied with detriment to the country and hazard to the Government. The only way in which they can afford a remedy is the indirect way of expediting a change of Government. That brings a great opportunity to my right hon. and hon. Friends and, like most opportunities, it carries a high responsibility, that of perfecting and presenting our policies so as to meet the needs of the country. If the policies of the Government do not change course—and we are assured by the Prime Minister that they will not—then they will attract and invite early shipwreck of their fortunes. We on this side will see to it that on the same strong sea which overtakes their inexpert navigation we are ready to launch a new Conservative Government well able to carry the cargo of the nation's interest.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: I beg my colleagues who entered the House for the first time at the last election not to pay too much attention to the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith). We older Members are accustomed to the empty and meaningless rhetoric of which he happens to be a master. While he was speaking, I wondered what he was driving at. What was his purpose? He made a reference to the virtues of the Conservative Party which made me wonder whether he had any thought of being included in the short list for the leadership of that party. If that was his idea,

  961
  he will be singularly unsuccessful. His opponents are too weighty for him.
  Apart from a few mixed metaphors—very mixed indeed—[An HON. MEMBER: "Which were mixed?"] They were so mixed that I failed to understand them. The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to Napoleon and the Elder Pitt and the Younger Pitt and made references to history which did not appear to me, with my limited knowledge of history, to be wholly accurate. What can one expect?
  Mr. Robert Cooke Mr. Robert Cooke (Bristol, West) rose—
  Mr. Shinwell: I must ask for the indulgence of the House. After all, interruptions will disturb the thread of my discourse. At least, I have something to say.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East will forgive me if, in the customary method adopted in this House, I do not follow him. I am not likely to follow him in any fashion. I prefer to make acquaintance with the Leader of the Opposition.
  Mr. Maxwell: Which one?
  Mr. Shinwell: Recently I have been reading in the newspapers—the reputable Tory newspapers—that the battle is about to commence and that the Tories are in an aggressive mood. I gather from the speeches which they have made and which have been reported in the Press that some of them are in a bloodthirsty frame of mind. For example, the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath)—I did not intend to refer to him, but he happens to be on the Opposition Front Bench—made a speech yesterday, I think—a sort of by-election speech. I saw it in one of the newspapers this morning. He referred to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and warned him that he was on the horns of a dilemma. He was between the Scylla of acceptance of the Tory policy and the Charybdis of danger from the Left. Referring to my right hon. Friend, he said, "One of these days, if he is not careful, he will be torn to pieces by the Left". I happen to be one of the Left. Let me assure the right hon. Gentleman that he is barking up the wrong tree. There is no danger from the Left, and I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why.
  962
  Those of us in the Labour Party who are alleged to hold Left-wing views have to choose—and please forgive the language—between an effete, decadent, rapidly deteriorating Tory Party with a policy which is not worth twopenny worth of gin, and a Labour Government with, true enough, a majority much smaller than I anticipated, but nevertheless a majority, which is more than the Opposition have. I am resolved that we should remain here as long as we possibly can and carry out our policy, irrespective of what the Opposition might think about it. Therefore, the right hon. Member for Bexley need not worry about danger from the Left. This is a united party, which is more than can be said for the Opposition.
  As I have said, we are told that the battle is about to commence. The Leader of the Opposition knows that I regard him as a very genial and affable person. Occasionally, when he was Foreign Secretary, in a moment of understanding—I hope that I will not be accused of momentary aberration at the time—I thought that he was doing an excellent job on behalf of our country in foreign affairs. I congratulate him. But that is as far as I am prepared to go.
  The right hon. Gentleman started this afternoon, the battle having commenced, by firing off a pistol with blank cartridges. But that is not the end of the story. At the end of the day along will come the big gun—I see him there, "Big Bertha"—the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer. I feel in a mood of interrogation and therefore I want to ask a few questions.
  I have long experience of this House. I have always believed that the most fascinating part of it is the facilities provided for asking questions—not that one always gets satisfactory answers—and the cut and thrust of debate. I do not care for set speeches. I believe in listening to the other fellow and then arguing the matter out with him. That is what this House is for. That is the essence of democracy.
  The Leader of the Opposition moved the Motion of no confidence in the Government. I ask myself why. What was the reason? Was it merely fun and games? Was it merely that the Opposition wanted to enjoy themselves? "After all, the country is not in a mess", says the right hon. Gentleman, "so we

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  can have a bit of pleasure." Was that the reason? Or did the right hon. Gentleman seriously intend that the Government should vacate office and that the Opposition should come over to this side of the House?
  Mr. Edward Heath Mr. Edward Heath (Bexley) indicated assent.
  Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman nods his head in assent.
  Therefore, I ask one or two questions, and the first is this: if the Tories, by some electoral misfortune, took office, what would they do? Would they reimpose the prescription charges? It is a fair question. The electors are waiting to hear. Would they decide to withdraw the arrangement for the implementation of an increase in old old age pensions? If hon. Members opposite want to come back to this side of the House, that is the sort of question they will be asked. The electors want an answer. Perhaps we can get it at the end of the debate from "Big Bertha", the big gun who is on the short list for the leadership.
  Would the Opposition decide to remove at once, expeditiously, even with ill-conceived haste—a term used this afternoon by the Leader of the Opposition—the import surcharge, irrespective of the effect on the balance of payments, to carry out Tory policy? The fact is that they would continue to pursue Tory policy such as we have experienced it for the past 12 or 13 years. In my judgment, that would be fatal to the interests of the country.
  I hope that the right hon. Member for Bexley is not now leaving us, because I want to put this to him. I am glad to see that he has resumed his seat beside his right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). The right hon. Member for Bexley may have heard that during his speech this afternoon the Leader of the Opposition spoke about the absence of a crisis when the Tory Party were in office. Nobody knows more about crises than the right hon. Member for Bexley, who spent 2½ years in fruitless negotiations in the endeavour to enter the Common Market—and why?
  From this side of the House—I remember it so well, sitting on the
  964
  benches opposite—speeches were made in denigration of our country. The country was practically finished in an economic sense, no longer a country with power. That was the reason advanced for entering the Common Market.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: Macmillan said it.
  Mr. Shinwell: It was said by the then Prime Minister. It was said often by the right hon. Member for Bexley when he occupied the Front Bench on this side of the House.
  What was the purpose of entering the Common Market if we were strong and powerful economically? The reasons that were advanced were that we could no longer rely on ourselves and that we had to integrate with other countries to raise our economic prestige. I could have gone into the Library today, looked at HANSARD and picked out a large number of quotations which would condemn the right hon. Member for Bexley but which, at the same time, would have the effect of defeating the purpose of his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.
  Mr. Heath: I always listen to the right hon. Gentleman with the greatest interest. He both informs and entertains the House. At the moment, however, he is being less than fair and beneath his usual standard. Throughout the whole of those negotiations and the debates in the House, there was no occasion when I denigrated my country. Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman has never been able to grasp the purpose which those of us had who were engaged in the negotiations, which was the political purpose of creating a greater unity in Europe, with which would be associated—[HON. MEMBERS: "The right hon. Gentleman always played it down."] Hon. Members can refer to my first speech about the subject as Lord Privy Seal at the Foreign Office and they will find it clearly set out.
  It was a unity with which would be associated very large parts of the Commonwealth in Africa and Asia. In addition, the economic purpose was to give this country a market of 300 million people with the other European countries to sustain the technology which is necessary today. What the right hon.

  965
  Gentleman does not recognise is the disadvantage at which this country is, technologically speaking, as long as we do not have that large market.
  Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman has made matters worse. He has now stated that one of the purposes, if not the primary purpose, was to create political union with the Six. That was denied from his own Front Bench at the time. I remember taking part in the debate.
  Mr. Heath: May I help the right hon. Gentleman? I said that the purpose was to create a political unity. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the statement which I made to the Western European Union on 18th April, 1962, in London, he will find the whole blueprint for that set out clearly. It was published at the time as a White Paper.
  Mr. Shinwell: Obviously, it is no use Arguing with the right hon. Gentleman when he is in this mood, when, for some reason or other, he is afraid to admit—
  Mr. Heath: Rubbish.
  Mr. Shinwell: Of course he is; that is obvious. He is afraid to admit what was the purpose behind the attempt to join the Six at the time. Moreover, what about the references to the Commonwealth? The Commonwealth, we were told, was finished. Trade with the Commonwealth was declining. The Commonwealth was no longer important. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] All this was associated with the belief, amounting almost to a conviction, on the Tory side that we had to associate ourselves with other countries to boost our trade or even to retain the volume of trade that remained with us.
  That was a crisis. We talked in terms of crisis. If hon. Members opposite read the speeches that were made at the time, they will find in them the implication that there was crisis. Of course there was. The right hon. Member for Bexley knows it. I recall to the right hon. Gentleman what my late leader, Mr. Hugh Gaitskell, said on this matter. When he was asked what would be the consequences of entering the Common Market or remaining outside, he said that if we went in there would, perhaps, be no disaster and if we remained outside there would be no disaster; it would have no deleterious
  966
  effects upon the country's economy. He was dealing in this House with the arguments advanced about the gradual decline of the country in the economic sphere.
  I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), the Leader of the Liberal Party, is not present, but perhaps some of his hon. Friends will convey my remarks to him. After listening to the major part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, I could not understand why members of his party proposed to abstain from voting tonight. There was only one objection to the policy now operating which has been introduced by my colleagues on the Front Bench, and that was a reference to steel.
  In the course of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, he referred to the need for operating the system of private profit. It never occurred to him, apparently, that there are nationalised industries which produce what in some circles is called profit and what we describe as a surplus. Take, for example, the electricity undertakings, with a profit last year of over £70 million. Take some of the nationalised airlines, making a considerable surplus. Take the Gas Council and even the Coal Board, which sometimes makes a profit. At any rate, it is doing something which is essential in producing what is necessary to meet the country's needs in fuel and power and in a variety of other ways. That is what is done by the nationalised industries. Why object to that? The assumption that a surplus can be created only by private enterprise is simply nonsense.
  Moreover, it struck me that the right hon. Gentleman, and, presumably, members of his party, are a bit more doctrinaire than they think and say we are. They are doctrinaire because they advance no reason why we should not make steel a nationalised concern.
  Mr. George Y. Mackie: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many of the nationalised industries provide their own capital for expansion and what proportion of our exports they provide?
  Mr. Shinwell: The provision of capital applies not only to nationalised industry, but also to private industry. Private industry has to raise money. It creates new issues and goes into the market and raises

  967
  new money. I do not want to be offensive and refer to subsidies to agriculture.
  The fact is that this industry is regarded as indispensable. I remember the discussions in this House when I was piloting schemes for the nationalisation of coal and electricity. The argument adduced by the Opposition was that this was doctrinaire Socialist policy, and the assumption was that if the Tories came in they would immediately decide to denationalise those industries. They did so for steel, but not for coal, electricity, gas, or the Bank of England. The fact is that there is nothing doctrinaire about the concept of bringing under national control an industry which is regarded as indispensable to the economy of the country, and if it is under national control, it must be nationally owned.
  I cannot understand why the Liberal Party has decided to abstain from voting. The Leader of the Liberal Party condemned the Leader of the Opposition, the Tory Party, and the late Tory Government, in terms which were more condemnatory than have ever been used on this side of the House. In those circumstances, I cannot understand the reason for their abstention, but of course they decide these matters for themselves.
  I do not want to pretend that everything in the garden is lovely. Of course it is not. In spite of the senseless interruptions from the benches opposite, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in a remarkable speech, proved this afternoon that what had been decided on and achieved in what I will call 100 days, if the right hon. Gentleman prefers it, instead of three months, has been to the advantage of this country, and that without it we would have been in the throes of disaster.
  The right hon. Member for Barnet, the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, knows only too well that in 1965, in 1966, and perhaps in 1967, we cannot afford a prolonged period of stagnation without effective capital investment, and without the effective organisation of our resources. I give him credit for having that knowledge, but in the Conservative Party what chance has he of putting those concepts into practical application? The answer is none at all.
  If the Opposition are going to try to make trouble in this House by bickering,
  968
  by having fun and games, by enjoying themselves, and by having a little pleasure now and again merely for purposes of their own, their behaviour may be regarded as extremely and utterly disgraceful. If, on the other hand, they are prepared to get up and say that they will make every effort, perhaps in the next month or two, to gather their forces, and perhaps enlist the services of the Liberal Party, to condemn this Government, we shall understand the position. In fact, we may welcome the opportunity, because I am satisfied that if we go to the country again, the country, knowing the facts which have been paraded this afternoon, and particularly the facts about the aircraft industry, will return us to power.
  I deplore the fact that aircraft workers may be disemployed as a result of some adjustment of aircraft production, but I remind the House that during the past 10 years 150,000 miners were disemployed, yet there was hardly a whimper of protest from the Tories. When we were complaining about the closure of pits and the social consequences of such closures, there was no protest from the benches opposite. It must be remembered, too, that in the last few years more than 100,000 railway men have become redundant.
  Mr. Dan Jones: And 150,000 textile workers, too.
  Mr. Shinwell: My hon. Friend speaks with authority about the textile industry. I deplore the possibility of aircraft workers being disemployed, but let us face the facts. We do not want military aircraft merely for the sake of providing people with work. If we need military aircraft, we want them for the defence of the country, or at any rate for the security of the country. We do not want them merely to provide work.
  How often have we heard Members from Belfast demanding that more aircraft and more naval vessels be built? I have often wondered why. Is it because we need them? The answer is not at all, or not necessarily so, but merely to provide work. There are other ways of providing work for the workers of this country. We need more skilled workers. We may require effective mobility. We may require the adjustment of skilled labour in the country. All these things may be regarded as necessary, but do not

  969
  let us pretend that we can improve the country's economy and provide economic security merely by constructing more military aircraft or more naval vessels. That is not the way to deal with the situation.
  I am sorry that the Leader of the Opposition has left the Chamber. I do not object to that. Perhaps my views will be conveyed to him. His speech this afternoon was full of contradictions. At one point he said that things were bad and we were in a crisis. At another point he said that in spite of the Labour Government things were improving. It was an inane, inept, insipid, incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial speech. That is not the sort of thing that we expect from a Leader of the Opposition. What is more, I could say the same thing about some of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite on the Front Bench. For example, the egregious right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) described my right hon. Friend in the most offensive terms. It is really quite remarkable. Some of us are expected to sit quietly by and be calm. After what they have done, they tell us to be calm. It is impossible to remain calm when we consider what they have done. When we are attacked, and when attempts are made to humiliate us, we strike back. I do not regard this place as a garden party on a Sunday afternoon where the dear vicar takes the chair. It is a place for argument, discussion, and controversy. I mean, of course, with the right people. If the Tories want a fight, they will get all they want.
  7.28 p.m.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: I regret that I cannot accept the invitation of the right hon. Member for Eastington (Mr. Shinwell) to engage in a debate on the Common Market. Tradition forbids that, much as I would enjoy it.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to Big Berthas. Unfortunately, I have only a damp squib. I am not, like him, a coruscating Catherine-wheel, self-igniting. I have to light this myself, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will not deny me the privilege of doing so.
  I expect that I am not the first Member in this House to confess on rising to address it for the first time to being somewhat overwhelmed by the sense of
  970
  occasion and privilege. It does not help me to know that to the House this is a relatively minor matter, and that its generosity and indulgence on these occasions is virtually inexhaustible, for the longer one stands on the top board the higher seems the dive, and I have already stood there for so long that my friends have been sending up sandwiches and coffee.
  I have the honour to represent the electors of Portsmouth, Langstone, a young constituency which has been represented in this House with a devotion which I cannot hope to emulate by Geoffrey Stevens. The energy and sense of duty which he brought to that task became apparent to me when, for nearly three years, I had the privilege of nursing his constituency. The House will remember especially his long and devoted service to the Finance Committee and will, I am sure, wish him godspeed and a well earned rest from public office.
  I hope that the House will allow me a moment to express the particular sense of pride which the people of Portsmouth felt on Saturday. The occasion symbolised the almost proprietary feeling which the Royal Navy had about its greatest First Lord—and, of course, Portsmouth has always had a somewhat proprietary feeling about the Royal Navy. The magnificent bearing and precision of those young sailors expressed most fittingly Portsmouth's sense of privilege and loss. In the signal sent to all ships of the Royal Navy on 28th January there was the phrase:
  "he forced every sea and land to be the highway of his daring."
  This is a tribute with which the people of Portsmouth would particularly wish to be associated, and a perpetual challenge to the youth of Britain and, indeed, the whole free world.
  One cannot become a Member of this House without incurring a particular debt of explanation. This is especially true of someone like myself, born in, although no longer a citizen of, what is now sadly a country owing no formal allegiance to Her Majesty. I left South Africa before this occurred, partly because I felt the loyalties of blood and language, and, indeed, the loyalties of my childhood, to be stronger than

  971
  those of a brash and somewhat discordant nationalism. I am conscious, in saying this, of a certain inconsistency with my belief that the claims of nationalism are largely spurious and invariably dangerous.
  But it was not the only reason. I left partly, also, because of a profound despair at the political creeds which had begun to poison the mainstream of what, in my youth at least, had always seemed a pattern of race relations in which the partnership of hope and common sense could usually outwit that of cynicism and prejudice. I left not least because I had a feeling then, and I still feel, that the political dialogue in this House has an importance in Western affairs that many commentators have misjudged. I was conceited enough to think then—and I have had no reason to abandon my conceit—that in this place we were getting some of our answers profoundly wrong.
  I hope that the House will not altogether forget, as its preoccupation becomes ever more domestic to this island, the three-and-a-half million people whom fate has disfranchised on the Continent of Africa. We should remember that they are not necessarily endowed with exceptional wisdom, and that the circumstances of a multi-racial society impose special difficulties which those not born into one cannot begin to understand. They require an altogether new dimension of human charity.
  It was Burke who once said that
  "the whole class of the severe and restrictive virtues are at a market almost too high for humanity."
  We are always relearning the truth of those words. In saying this I have said something which I have long wanted to say in a place where I have long wanted to say it. It has always seemed to me unfortunate that as the Empire grew into a Commonwealth the Mother of Parliaments did not see fit to develop some appropriate constitutional device which would enable the voice of the Commonwealth to be heard in this House. However right the devolution of responsibility and power may have been, the influence of Westminster will continue to be felt not only in the Commonwealth but in all those parts of the world where the great freedoms which are cherished and entrenched in this island influence
  972
  the affairs of men, for winds of change originating in this House can easily develop in less matured and ordered continents into monsoons of misery.
  Lest the House concludes that I am merely the latest example of the truth of Pliny's dictum on Africa, cast by a freak chance of the electoral process on the shores of Westminster, I hasten to point out that the first of my forebears sat here in the Parliament of Mary as long ago as 1553 and that 11 others followed almost without a break under 11 reigns, and in the Long Parliament. I had hoped to find some inspiration today from their Parliamentary records, but I was not encouraged to discover that my immediate predecessor in this House sat here for six years under Disraeli without saying a word.
  I was, however, given some political encouragement by discovering that in 1693 another of my predecessors procured, in the words of that age, "a most glorious act" by denationalising the mines. I would not be so rash as to suggest that this illustrious precedent presents me with a legitimate target for my own ambitions, but I would not be sitting on this side of the House if I did not believe, despite Professor Galbraith, that the scope of the public sector has greatly outstripped the administrative capacity of public men, and now imposes on us something more than the vast tax burden which it creates.
  There cannot be many of us who, after the last election, did not have an uneasy feeling that the predominant political mood in Britain was that of "a plague on both your houses." This phrase perhaps does not do justice to the Liberal Party, but perhaps I can enlarge it appropriately by saying, "a plague on both your houses and the potting shed." Naturally, the inhabitants of the potting shed think otherwise, and attribute their spasmodic electoral success to the desire of a second option. Though I believe their analysis to be superficial, I do not wish to introduce an inappropriately partisan note to my speech. I merely suggest that the electorate is dissatisfied with the quality of political choice which this represents and with the character of the governmental process which is described by the present dialogue within this House and that between this House and the Executive.

  973
  It is emphatically not in the interests of Parliament that vast numbers of electors, whether articulate or not, should share the feeling that the momentum of Government proceeds in an orbit predetermined by the hostility of most established institutions to change, the random spread of technology and the heavy chains of political inertia. I am convinced that the electorate expected much less from the "100 days" than hon. Members opposite, and that the wish of hon. Members on this side of the House to display the gap between promise and performance, however serious it may be, arouses the concern mainly of the politically committed. The public expected such a gap and they discount our promises and counter-promises with a severity born of long disillusion.
  They are discontented, for example, with our inability to think about any issue which we cannot analyse in terms of those obsolete political categories, "Left" and "Right", as if all human problems are still structured predominantly in terms of envy or malice. There is discontent, too, with the tendency to associate both the desire to adopt modern and radical solutions and a general concern for the public interest, exclusively with a particular political party. The statistical distribution of the willingness and capacity to change is surely as much a function of age, education and experience as of political philosophy and allegiance. Is it not time that the conduct of political affairs gave more explicit recognition to the validity of this political judgment?
  Despite Mr. Dean Acheson's scepticism, I have never doubted the rôle of Britain or this House in the post-Churchill era. It is to re-establish confidence in democratic institutions in the scientific age and to buttress political judgment with scientific objectivity, wherever this is possible. First, we must reconsider the place, purpose and method of Parliamentary Government in the context of the information explosion, the revolution in communications and the massive enlargement of our capacity to simulate and explore complexity made possible by the computer.
  During the last few centuries the number of radical changes in Parliamentary Government have been few. The pace of change in human affairs has been slow. The rarity of new ideas has reflected the
  974
  rarity of the highest orders of human insight and genius. But, from time to time, Parliament has responded to the pressures from new philosophies, new wealth or new levels of education and, in transforming itself, has achieved an increase in the level and amount of involvement in the affairs of Government.
  Before these great moves forward take place there is generally a feeling of disillusion and discontent. Cocooned in the comforts of Westminster, such as they are, we tend to underrate the cynicism of Press and public. At such times the electors do not vote for parties or platforms. They vote to keep open the option for democracy, and to keep alive the hope of re-establishing the reality of Government by consent on a viable basis. It is my profound belief that such a vote was cast at the last election, that this explains the electorate's reluctance to entrust any of us with a large majority, and that the Mother of Parliaments, having lost her greatest servant, now faces one of her greatest challenges.
  We need all our national genius for political pragmatism if we are to reconcile the true spirit of democracy with the uncompromising impatience of science and of a world desperate for its products. Our greatest task is to demolish the constraints which ignorance and inertia impose on scientific advance more effectively than they are demolished in authoritarian societies which scoff at the importance which we attach to the individual. The superiority of the alliance between true science and freedom over that between scientism and collectivism must be endlessly demonstrated, especially in this House.
  When the Danes were raiding the coasts of Wessex centuries ago, in ships which gave them a decided advantage in battle, another great philosopher king, Alfred the Great, countered this threat by ordering long ships which were shaped, in the words of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, "neither in the Frisian manner nor in the Danish, but as it seemed to him that they might be most useful". This, I think, suggests the best guide to the vital task of reshaping our Parliamentary institutions.
  It would seem that our problems are primarily economic, that our criteria of

  975
  judgment are economic, and that the dismal scientists have come into their own. Adam Smith and the old Adam seem, in some men's careers, to have become virtually indistinguishable. As I see it, we face two major problems in attempting to sit in judgment on the 100 days. The first is to be certain that the statistics we all employ accurately describe the whole situation. The second is to demonstrate convincingly the direct and precise relationship of cause and effect between the political decisions of Government and the economic consequences of those decisions alone. I never cease to be amazed at the dogmatism of statements made about these questions. Both Richard Stone at Cambridge and Oskar Morgernstern at Princetown have described the inherent crudeness and unreliability of even the most refined modem economic statistics. These do not describe a situation so much as what is, as a matter of convenience and tradition, statistically visible. What is invisible is generally as large and even more dangerous than the submerged nine-tenths of the iceberg. It is largely for this reason that it is almost impossible to distinguish satisfactorily, as a basis for policy making, the influence on our final economic position in the second half of last year, first, of our basic visible and invisible trading position; secondly, of the short-term capital movements resulting mainly from the acceleration or delay of trade payments; thirdly, of short-term capital movements generated by political confidence factors which have been discussed so much this afternoon, and fourthly of short-term movements of reserves as a result of special arrangements with the central banks and the I.M.F.
  The figures simply do not and cannot tell the complete story. It can, of course, be argued that an experienced captain does not need an anemometer to tell him when his ship is in a gale and that it is sufficient to know whether it is force 4 or force 8. But throughout this crisis there was a tendency to ignore the fact that Britain had completely rebuilt her massive overseas investment position since the war and this was the one factor which changed significantly, if not sufficiently, between each of the post-war balance of payments crises.
  976
  It is this basic improvement—and no mere act of political will—which might conceivably have justified an attempt to drive the ship forward through the storm confident that her frames had been sufficiently strengthened to endure it without reducing speed. But if we ourselves persistently understate our true economic strength and superimpose upon this a violent campaign of national self-criticism, not entirely confined to the General Election, then, however justified and overdue some of this may be, we must not be surprised if our banking and trading partners take fright. This is not, of course, inconsistent with a perfectly justifiable view that our national wealth could have been greater—it always could—our crises could have been fewer—they always could—and less severe, and the last avoided completely.
  As the House is sensitive, I am sure, about using such old-fashioned similes, I shall revert to its favourite simile, the motor car, to illustrate the argument about stop-go economics. Four times at least since the war we have smelt burning rubber and brakes and reduced speed. Four times we have reported the fault, and four times we have put the car back on the road with the same brakes, an overheating clutch and poor wiring—which one might translate as restrictive practices, inadequate social communication and obsolete technical and commercial designs. This state of affairs is the responsibility of everyone who built and serviced the economic car, and that, in this context, as some hon. and right hon. Members have recently observed, does mean everyone.
  If I may seem to hon. Members on my side of the House to be offering the Government a perfect escape from responsibility, it is because I think that we should be concerning ourselves with two aspects of a much more fundamental disagreement. The first is a disagreement about the limits of legislative and executive competence. The second is a disagreement about the criteria by which we should now begin to judge our national economic performance. The first is possibly the more important because it relates closely to the expectations surrounding the word "planning".
  If we believe our economic instruments to be both relevant to the type

  977
  and sensitive to the degree of control which we wish to exercise, then we are entitled to be optimistic about planning, whether of investment or income. For "planning" must only mean the application of the best judgment to the most timely, relevant and complete information which can be obtained. Neither the experience of the last 100 days, nor of the last hundred months in France, nor of the "guide-posts'" era in the United States, convinces me that our desire for better economic control, particularly of cyclical fluctuations of the type experienced by all advanced economies, is matched by the quality and relevance of the information we require to exercise this control. We have certainly improved, but we have a long way to go. The limits of human competence in the economic field are still more severely circumscribed, in my view, than hon. Members opposite are prepared to concede. The challenge to ingenuity is immense and the computer has merely exposed, like a flash of lightning in the Himalayas, the size of the unconquered peaks.
  Is this, then, a counsel of despair? I think not. It is a counsel of caution, a belief that there is nothing quite so dangerous in the twentieth century as to allow our administrative ambitions to outreach our statistical and analytical grasp. The complexity of human motivation, the unpredictability of technology and the stupidity of régimes which put prestige before profit are a constant temptation to Governments to exceed their effective powers. It must be resisted.
  What, then, are the new criteria which we can use? Can they be developed rapidly? Will they come to fruition in the life of this Parliament? That would be a remarkably optimistic assumption. Would they enable a Government of any party to do significantly better than the present Government? I suggest that the electorate's judgment of the meaning of significance is different from that held in this House. I believe the answer to be "Yes".
  I will not weary the House by expanding my thoughts on this theme, but I must suggest a few examples of what I mean. Both parties have, until very recently, been acutely sensitive to the index of unemployment. This, I submit, is now a
  978
  crude and irrelevant criterion, as useful as using a canary to test the level of radiation in a Polaris submarine. Keynes taught us all how to solve the full employment problem. We must now develop much more refined concepts. The first that I suggest is an index of mis-employment, to give some idea of the proportion of labour in various age groups and skills which is employed in industries with a technologically limited life; which is employed on obsolete or output-restricted machines; which is hoarded, for whatever reasons; which is awaiting retraining or being prevented from being retrained. This is a much more difficult thing to measure and much more relevant to our present problems.
  Many, though not all, symptoms of economic malaise are the result of another factor which we do not yet measure effectively. When we talk about growth and compare it to national economic performance, we are really discussing two things. The first is the mobility of resources, and the second is the effectiveness with which mobile resources are redeployed. As a great trading nation, our pattern of resource utilisation must follow closely the pattern of world demand. We can influence this only to the extent that the pattern of national demand in this country and the pattern of economic and social changes in this country assume a shape which the rest of the world will seek to emulate. This requires a high and continuing rate of resource mobility, of labour re-employment, of capital re-investment, and the acid test, as always, is profitability. We get nowhere at all by covering the profit indicators with a red cloth or distorting the vital cybernetic mechanisms which underlie the free enterprise system. Hostility to profits is as pointless as hostility to the mercury in a thermometer.
  The third basic condition of success for which we have as yet no successful index is a high rate of absorption and dispersion of technical and scientific ideas. To some extent, this comes back again to profits, for what we are trying to measure is, firstly, the rate at which resources are moving into undertakings of high technical merit—and this usually means a high risk. Secondly, we have as yet no successful index of the rate at which new technology spreads outwards from the pioneers to the followers. Over

  979
  15 years ago the width of this gap in British industry between the progressive few and the rest was stressed by almost every one of the productivity teams which visited the United States. This gap is still too wide and the devices which assist its elimination, such as the Centre for Inter-firm Comparison of the British Institute of Management, receive little support. We need several such centres and we need to extend the range of comparison both to the United States and to Western Europe.
  If we develop such criteria of information on a national scale, then, and only then, can we contemplate the construction of what, to use the modern terminology, is called a critical path network for the allocation of our national economic resources, something which will mean much more than wishful tinkering. At present we dress guesswork up in the trappings of economics and make the mistake of believing that the result is inherently more rational and therefore more desirable than the uninhibited play of the free market. No one believes that the free market can order the entire allocation of resources in a modern economy but it is the utmost folly to hamper its operation in those spheres where nothing better can be put in its place.
  I have suggested some of the instruments which I believe we must develop to provide Governments in a supersonic age with the equivalent of the Machmeter. I am not easily convinced, from the record of virtually every advanced economy, that the fact that we do not go through the economic sound barrier without creating a violent shaking of the balance of payments relates solely to the fact of whichever party happens to be in power. It is related primarily to the quality of the economic instruments by which all parties attempt to fly the plane. We need misemployment meters, resource mobility meters and technology dispersion meters, and if we do not know what these are, we must try to create them. We must have a careful regard for their inherent error factors, for the equivalent of variation and deviation in the national economic compass.
  If we are to have such instruments, may I plead that there should be, here in this Palace of Westminster, a national economic chartroom in which Members
  980
  of this House may familiarise themselves with the data and information which at present reaches us only after a prolonged regurgitation in Whitehall. We need less instant Government and more real-time Government. An ounce of implementation in Westminster will be worth 10 lb. of exhortation, whether measured by the weight of HANSARD or that of Royal Commission Reports, from Westminster.
  This, then, is the challenge facing us—to come to terms with a new age. We shall not do so by pursuing narrow party advantage. If we do we may still sit on here, we may still fight and win elections, but we shall have become a living historical monument, more colourful and expensive than the Beefeaters but less useful, and we shall eventually all be pensioned off by some new technological Cromwell entrenched with his computers behind the barricades of power.
  I am grateful to the House for its courtesy and patience, and I hope that I have not trespassed on convention by casting the net of my discussion too wide and taking rather too long to do it.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamilton: It falls to me to congratulate the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) on a quite remarkable maiden speech. It had almost all the qualities which we expect of a maiden speech, except one. He was non-controversial, he was certainly humorous and eloquent, but brevity was not exactly the hallmark of it. Nevertheless, I think I express the wishes of the whole House when I say that we look forward to hearing him very often in the future—so long as I am not waiting to speak after him.
  I am sorry that the Leader of the Opposition is not in his place, because until he spoke I did not know what the motives were for tabling the Motion. It was a case of the Tory Party leading with its chin. I want to try to assess what the motives were. At least, I tried to do so before the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition spoke. Of course, one expected them to seek to cash in on the Leyton by-election result. This is perfectly understandable and perfectly legitimate. We have no complaint on that score. It is all part of the party game. It certainly was a setback for the Labour Party. No one denies

  981
  that. It will be corrected at the next election, if the lessons have been learned. I want to take this opportunity of putting on record my view of that result. I believe that the first lesson which we on this side and the Opposition have to learn from the Leyton result is that we must not take the electorate for granted. We should not insult them by using them for purely party political convenience.
  This by-election was little more than a crude attempt at ballot rigging and I do not defend that—not in Leyton or Nuneaton or Altrincham and Sale or East Grinstead, Salisbury or anywhere else. The post-election Honours List was nothing and is nothing more than party political jobbery and the electors, understandably and rightly, objected to that kind of insult being hurled at them by the political parties. I hope that they will do it more often. I hope that they will do it at Altrincham and Sale on Thursday. There we have the spectacle of a senior Tory Minister of the last Administration, rejected in October, being given a safe seat which even he cannot lose. One of the pleasing aspects from our point of view on this side of the House of the last election was the fall of Ministers—Mr. Barber, now the candidate for Altrincham and Sale, Mr. Rippon, Mr. Bevins and Mr. Maurice Macmillan, and a very near thing for others.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) made Hampstead a marginal seat. The right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) had a near shave, too. Since then, these defeated ex-Ministers have been trailing round the country like political itinerant whores, trying to sell their wares to whoever will buy them. They have all now got clients—all except Mr. Bevins, and he has been too busy revealing the inner secrets of the Tory Party in the Sunday Express,, though it never struck me that he was one of the inner magic circle of the Tory Party.
  If I may come to today's debate, the situation is intriguing, for never can a party moving a Motion like this have been so vulnerable to complete devastation and never can a party have been so terrified of the prospect of the Motion being carried. The one thing that they do not want is to win the vote tonight. If they had thought for a single minute that they would win, they would never
  982
  have put the Motion down in the first place.
  The prospect of an early election petrifies them, and the reasons are there for all to see. In the first place, they do not want to admit—indeed the Leader of the Opposition went so far as to deny—that there was a crisis. Certainly they do not want to accept the responsibility for the sorry mess which was left and for the unpopular measures which would have to be carried out, even supposing there were a change of Government tomorrow. We on this side of the House do not deny that the measures which have had to be carried out were not in our election manifesto. How could they have been, when we did not know all the facts of the situation, which had been carefully kept from us and from the country?
  Certain of these measures have been unpopular. In some instances they have been unjust. They have certainly been harsh. Few, if any, of the leaders of the Tory Party now deny that there was a very serious situation which had to be dealt with. Some of them are on record as saying so. The right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), speaking to Conservative women at Sutton on 26th January, said:
  "I am not saying that some of the steps taken were not necessary."
  I should like to ask him, through the right hon. Member for Monmouth, who is on the Front Bench, which steps were necessary in their view and which steps were not necessary? And why were the steps necessary—which in their estimate were necessary—if there were no crisis?
  On 26th October the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) used these oft-quoted words:
  "It is true that the Labour Party have inherited our problems."
  These are the problems which, according to the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon, did not exist. They were, he said, created by us. But his right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet said that we had inherited their problems and that we had also inherited their solutions. The only difference, according to the speech which he made on that occasion, between the right hon. Member for Barnet and the Labour Government was that he would probably have waited another month or two before taking action.

  983
  The Guardian put it very succinctly in its leading article of 29th January, when it said:
  "The real starting point and cause of Tuesday's censure debate in the Commons will be the Treasury's forecast of October 26 that the overall balance of payments' deficit for 1964 would be between £700 millions and £800 millions. … The Conservatives may contend (in the motion they have put forward for debate on Tuesday) that the steps the Government took to meet this problem were hasty and ill-considered, but they cannot blame the Government for the problem itself."
  The problem was there. It was recognised to be there by everybody who took an interest in these things. The only difference between us is in which steps should be taken to deal with it, when they should be taken and how they should be taken.
  No action was taken by the right hon. Member for Barnet in the critical months of June to October last year solely and wholly because of party political and electoral considerations. When midsummer came, when June came, it was clear that an election had to take place within the next four months and therefore, for four months at least, no matter how desperate the economic situation, no action could be taken or would be taken by the Government.
  The Sunday Times said in its editorial of 4th October:
  "Sir Alec Douglas-Home should not accuse other people of irresponsibility in raising this issue."
  They were referring to the issue of the economic situation, which my right hon. Friend, now the Prime Minister, raised during the election. Referring to the present Leader of the Opposition, the Sunday Times said:
  "He chose the election time knowing perfectly well the economic risks that were involved. … The situation that now exists is therefore of his own making."
  The newspaper went on to refer to the "exceptionally large deficit" of 1964, to which my right hon. Friend referred this afternoon.
  The City editor of the Daily Mail on 28th September, 1964, said,
  "Our trading deficit is described even officially as massive and is larger than at any time since the war."
  He discussed the possible Tory post-election measures. We have heard singularly little about what the Conservatives would have done if they had won the
  984
  election. The Daily Mail City editor suggested that there would have been postponements in the investment programmes of the nationalised industries.
  "A rise of Bank Rate would surprise no one",
  said the Daily Mail.
  "Mr. Maudling would almost certainly try a mixture of import controls and import incentives"
  —which is precisely what we have done and precisely what the right hon. Member for Barnet said we would do. Yet the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, as reported in the Financial Times of 1st October, 1964, said:
  "I do not see evidence of overheating in the economy".
  That was a few days before the election.
  It seems to me that any Government which had inherited a situation of that kind would have had to take action. There is no question about that. Action was inevitable. Both parties made it clear in their manifestoes. Certainly we did. We said that our programme depended on a steady annual average growth of 4 per cent. The White Paper which the previous Government issued on Public Expenditure in 1963–64 and 1967–68, Cmnd. 2235, spelled it out in paragraph 38:
  "This rate of growth, if maintained between now and 1967–68, should be enough to support public ependiture on the general scale foreseen in this White Paper; and implied by the Government's policies".
  It said,
  "But if these policies seemed likely to make a larger claim on resources than is here envisaged, or if the prospects for economic growth substantially worsened, it would clearly be necessary for the Government to review their policies accordingly."
  Everything depended on this steady 4 per cent. rate of growth per year.
  The Labour Party's manifesto had these words to offer to the electorate:
  "We offer no easy solution to our national problems. Time and effort will be required before they can be mastered."
  Judged by the Conservative's record over the 13 years in which they had power, they were never likely to achieve anything like the growth which was necessary to fulfil the promises which were made in that White Paper. They have boasted that their programme had been carefully costed, but it is one thing to cost a programme and quite another thing to pay

  985
  the bill. When we came to power, we found a programme which was costed but no national economic resources to meet the bill.
  We must ask the Conservatives this question. Facing the problems of their own creation, which parts of this programme in the White Paper, which was issued before the election, would they now be cutting? Would it be defence? The white Paper showed a prospective increase here of £265 million in the four years 1963–64 to 1967–68. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister indicated this afternoon that the TSR2 alone is likely to cost £750 million. An article in the Observer in November, 1963, indicated that by the time we got 50 TSR2s into squadron service the figure would be more likely to be £1,000 million, which is more than three times the total increase in defence expenditure over the whole field which the Conservative Government envisaged in the next four years up to 1967–68.
  The Tory Party has been pressing this Government ever since they came to power to go full steam ahead with the TSR2, the Concord and every other aircraft which has been mentioned. The Tories have been complaining, not about acting too hastily, but about dillying and dallying and not making decisions. The right hon. Member for Monmouth yesterday asked whether the Prime Minister would now make a statement. Then the right hon. Gentleman rose and said he did not want it. The Tories must make up their minds whether they want decisions now or whether they want careful consideration before the decisions are taken.
  I do not think that the Conservatives, had they got power in October of last year, could have cut defence expenditure. This is not the field in which they seek economies. They seek economies in other fields. We can pour out £1,000 million on TSR2. We can pour out millions of pounds to Ferrantis. We can pour out millions of pounds on all kinds of projects and write them off without a blink of the eyelids. But the Tories will not cut the defence budget.
  I want to make this personal comment about the TSR2 and the aircraft industry. I do not believe that we can continue pouring out hundreds of millions of £s of public money year by year by year, and much of it going astray, simply to keep
  986
  men in jobs on the "phoney" argument that, if we did not do this, the technicians, the skilled scienists and such people who are currently employed in the industry would thereby be unemployed and would leave the country. I do not believe that diagnosis. Robert Hellier in the article in the Observer in November, 1963, to which I have referred, said this, referring to the estimate for the TSR2:
  "£1,000 million cannot really be justified as outdoor relief for the aircraft industry."
  He is right. The Conservatives would not have cut back on defence.
  Education, however, has often been a target for retrenchment by successive Tory Governments over the last 12 or 13 years. Would they have gone back on their commitment to Robbins on university education? The signs are that they would. We have had the Newsom Report on the deplorable condition of our secondary modern schools. We could not cut back there. We have had the devastating report on school building, which was held back deliberately until after the election. Could we cut back there? Clearly not.
  Would the Tories have cut back on the social services? I think that they would. There were signs in their election manifesto that this was how they were thinking. They have been asked this question this afternoon. We have never yet had an answer. Would they now go back on the abolition of prescription charges? Would they now say that the National Insurance propositions which we have put forward would be forgotten? Certainly there was no machinery left; there was no evidence of any planning for any increases for the old people, the unemployed, the sick, the widows. We come back to the proposition in the Motion. What were "the hasty and ill-considered actions"?
  Mr. Emlyn Hooson: On a point of order. This is a debate on a censure Motion moved by the Conservative Party. I see five Conservative Members here at 8.15 p.m. I ask for a count.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Samuel Storey): At the present moment a count is not allowed.
  Mr. Hooson: Further to that point of order. Is there a quorum in the House at the moment?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker.That does not arise between 7.30 and 8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Hamilton: I appreciate the hon. and learned Gentleman's motives in asking that question. I am only sorry that it is not in order, because the hon. and learned Gentleman is right. My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) talked about the "wonderful Opposition". It is the Opposition's Motion of censure. They could not form a football team at the moment! This is the Opposition which the Leader of the Opposition said was healthily aggressive. If we have nothing more to fear than this, we should last the full five years. Then we shall see some results.
  Meanwhile, we have had to engage in these short-term measures. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite describe them as "hasty and ill-considered". They say that there has been lack of consultation, for instance on the surcharge. They say that we have broken treaties. I remind them of what the right hon. Member for Barnet said about international obligations and treaties. I recollected his saying this, so I looked up his remarks. In February, 1963, when we were debating the Common Market negotiations, the right hon. Gentleman made these remarks about international treaties and obligations:
  "We are not over-scrupulous about international obligations…I am often told that we are the mugs and that everyone else cheats in these matters. This is just not true."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1963; Vol. 671, c. 1247.]
  These were the remarks of the right hon. Member for Barnet about international obligations. Yet the Tories have the affrontery to tell us that, facing the desperate situation we faced, we should have gone to every member of E.F.T.A. and to all our European partners and asked them for permission and engaged in a series of negotiations. This is like asking the fire brigade when it is called out to deal with a fire to consult other fire brigades to see whether perhaps they should not deal with it. When the fire is started, the important point is to get the damn thing out and then talk about it later, and that is the situation with which we have been faced. We had to take quick action. We had to offend some people. We are very sorry about it, but in the long term they will benefit as well as we shall. These are short-term desperate measures to deal with a desperate situation.
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  The Conservatives jacked the Bank Rate up to 7 per cent. in a situation which was less serious than the situation is now, and I want to say something about the effect of this on the building societies. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made some play this afternoon of the hardship that results as a direct consequence of putting up the Bank Rate to people who are buying their own houses. I have seen a letter which has gone out from the Abbey National Building Society to a mortgagor explaining to to him why his interest rate has to go up. In the covering letter the Society says that this has to be done in view of the impending increased taxation of building societies.
  I shall be tabling a Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer but I hope that he will deal with this point tonight because I think that it is important. If the building societies are distorting the truth to the disadvantage of the Government and leaving the mortgagors to believe that there is impending increased taxation to be imposed upon them, the Government should make it abundantly clear that this is not true. On the contrary, if I recollect aright, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said exactly the opposite—that the result of the corporation tax to be imposed in April would benefit the building societies. I hope that my right hon. Friend will put that point right.
  As for the Bank Rate, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it quite clear in a speech in Swansea as long ago as last January that the rate might well have to be increased and that in the short term we might have to increase it because this was the only instrument that would be available to us if we took over in a situation of crisis. The speech is on record for anyone to read.
  The Motion before us is the most arrogant, the most impertinent, and most dishonest Motion that has come before the House for a very long time. The Opposition know that it will be defeated, and they very much hope that it will.
  8.23 p.m.
  Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe: I should like to join the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) on his maiden speech. As all of

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  us can recollect, it is something of an ordeal to make a maiden speech, but my hon. Friend expressed himself with fluency and confidence and in a manner which many of us older Members envied. That was due perhaps to the inborn feeling handed down to him by his many ancestors, to whom he referred, who sat in the House in bygone days. I should like to pay my tribute to him and to say that we look forward to hearing similar contributions from him on future occasions in the House.
  I think that I have listened to all the speeches in the debate and I wonder sometimes whether hon. and right hon. Members opposite are now beginning to regret that they laid quite so much emphasis on the famous 100 days. When a slogan miscues it is always very embarrassing, and when a large-scale advertisement with a good deal of detail in it miscues it is more embarrassing still. The plain fact remains that there is absolutely nothing left of the Government's manifesto. It is all in shreds.
  The Prime Minister made great play with the increased pensions and other benefits which are to come into operation next month, but during the election we were told that we could have increased benefits without increased taxation. [An HON. MEMBER: "No, we were not."] Certainly in two or three broadcasts that was made absolutely clear, but we now have had 6d. on the Income Tax and 6d. on the petrol tax, and other taxes as well. This is not what the electorate were led to expect. Moreover, by the end of March or April when the increased benefits come in they will have been offset by increased prices.
  Rather oblique and somewhat confusing promises were made about lower mortgage rates on house purchase. If I may venture to give advice in retrospect to the Government, they would have done much better to have taken as adviser Mr. Gulbenkian at 5 per cent. than their present advisers at 6¾ per cent. Tremendous emphasis was also laid during the election on ending the stop-go policy—a policy which it was said was entirely due to the machinations and incompetence of Tory administration and which was never to happen again.
  The strange thing is that the Prime Minister told us quite clearly today that
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  throughout last year we were getting increasingly worried about the economic situation. The writing on the wall was there to see, but if during the election campaign the writing was so clear that the right hon. Gentleman was absolutely certain about the sort of situation which he might have to face if he won the election, then had I been him I would have been more modest in the promises that I made.
  At the beginning of the campaign there was the great speech in Edinburgh when, referring to the high Bank Rate, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "We have the bitter experience of … 7 per cent. Bank Rate, higher mortgage payments, higher purchase restrictions …"
  and in November the present Chancellor of the Exchequer said that
  "On our first week-end, when the present Prime Minister formed his Administration, we determined that we would not tread that path again."
  The right hon. Gentleman was referring to the Bank Rate imposed in 1961.
  The truth of the matter is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer failed to realise that the Chancellor of the day, whoever he may be and to whatever party he may belong, is the bank manager of the sterling area, and as such he has to behave in exactly the same way as any other bank manager behaves. There are two golden rules for bank managers which they must never break. The first is that they must not panic, and the second is that they must be polite to their clients. The Chancellor of the Exchequer broke both these golden rules.
  Whether the panic was synthetic or genuine I do not know, but the point is academic because, once one creates the impression of panic, as the Chancellor did, the clients naturally queue up to withdraw their deposits while there is still something left in the kitty. One cannot be offensive, in one breath, to quite a number of one's clients both here and overseas and, in the next breath, ask them to underpin one's reserves, particularly when one has, as the Chancellor had, just introduced a high cost Budget which is quite irrelevant to the problem which one has inherited. In trying to restore confidence, as the right hon. Gentleman said

  991
  he was trying to do, the one thing one must not do is to create uncertainty, yet that is precisely what he did in his Budget statement.
  The Chancellor is in a very difficult position. He has announced the capital gains tax and the corporation tax. He cannot announce any details because to do so would anticipate the Budget statement in April. So he is on two hooks and cannot get off them. As a result, no one knows what to do. No trustee knows what to do with trustee investments. No one in charge of the investment of pensions funds knows how to do it. No one knows whether gilt-edged securities redeemed at par are or are not to be subject to the capital gains tax. No one in agriculture knows whether one ought, between now and April, to try to rewrite the Domesday Book, if that were possible, and have a valuation of every single agricultural holding lest at some subsequent date, it might have to be sold. No one knows anything about how the capital gains tax or the corporation tax is to operate. All we know is that football pool and betting winnings will be exempt. That is all, and it is a strange commentary on the measure of priorities offered by a Socialist Government.
  A word now about the surcharge. It seems to me that the Government have had the worst of both possible worlds at the same time in this matter. They have created the maximum amount of ill feeling and offence, with the minimum result. If the surcharge was to be kept on for any length of time, then we of all countries in the world would be about the most vulnerable to retaliation. In fact, there are signs of retaliation coming now. If, on the other hand, the surcharge is to be taken off fairly soon, it cannot have done the trick. I do not suppose that it has bitten at all.
  As regards exports, listening to some of the things said by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and his hon. and right hon. Friends recently, one gets the impression that they have suddenly discovered a new problem. They alone have revealed that exports are a great problem and that Britain cannot live without them. They are like the newly independent countries which always think that all history prior to the
  992
  date of independence is buried in the Neolithic age. In fact, there is no new problem here at all. The Government have discovered some of the problems in boosting exports, and they find that it is not as simple as appears at first sight.
  No Government of this country now or at any time can afford to discriminate in exports on political grounds. To do so is fatal. I am not talking about the strategic list. We all know about that and accept it. But apart from the strategic list, I am absolutely convinced that we should not discriminate on political grounds as to whether we export to one country or another. We must export to any markets wherever they are.
  Just before Christmas, the President of the Board of Trade went off to China and, on his return, if I recollect aright, he made the usual statement at London Airport, saying, in effect, that he had gone out to try to open up new markets, that there was a considerable untapped market for British exports in China, and that he thought we ought to be a little more energetic in trying to sell there. I entirely agree. In my view, we ought to export more to Communist China, and we ought to export, and probably could export, more to Iron Curtain countries. I am entirely in favour of that.
  I find it rather difficult to understand, nevertheless, how one can say, on grounds of political philosophy or whatever the right phrase is, that the Government of Communist China are more democratic, more liberal-minded, more bubbling over with the milk of human kindness towards fellow creatures of other nations and of different colours, including the Indians, than are the Governments of Portugal, Spain or South Africa. On grounds of political philosophy, I find it very difficult to distinguish between the advantages of exporting to China and the advantages of doing away with markets which we had in our pocket in the other countries I have mentioned.
  Mr. Hooson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. It is now five minutes past the dinner hour and I see that there are still only five Conservative Members in the Chamber on this violent motion of censure. I now ask for a count.
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
  House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
  8.36 p.m.
  Mr. George Brown: In view of the remarks just made by the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe), which I know he means very sincerely, will he explain how it came about that it was the Conservative Party when in Government which voted for the United Nations Resolution about an embargo, which is what we are now carrying out?
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I did not know that there was any United Nations Resolution about an embargo on exports to Spain or Portugal in respect of which we have lost orders, though there was a Resolution, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, couched in very general form about an embargo on arms to South Africa. The then Government's position was put absolutely clearly in an explanation of vote by the United Kingdom representative in the Security Council at the time. Everybody interested, including, I suspect, the right hon. Gentleman, knew the Resolution to have a much wider content.
  Mr. Brown: Might I clear this up? The Government of the day committed Britain to an embargo on arms to South Africa. We are carrying that out. We are not doing anything else. I wonder what the hon. Gentleman is grumbling about.
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: The Resolution did not talk about an embargo on all arms to South Africa. It talked about an embargo on arms which could be used for what might be described as internal security purposes. It was nothing to do with the Buccaneers or any of the other contracts which in the early days of the life of the present Government were very much in question.
  I repeat for the benefit of the right hon. Gentleman what I was saying, that, purely on grounds of political philosophy, I can see no difference between opening up new markets in China and all the discrimination on political grounds against markets which were in our pocket in Spain and Portugal and, in certain respects, in South Africa. That policy makes no sense.
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  I read the other day that a new British Embassy is to be built in Madrid, and it will be circular in shape. That seems to be very appropriate. I have no doubt that it will shortly receive, if it has not done so already, a circular from the Foreign Secretary which will be sent to all missions emphasising the need to boost our exports and asking them to do their utmost to increase our exports to the countries in which they are situated. I dare say that in various countries the staff of the embassies will be reinforced by persons from the Board of Trade who may well have joined the new Diplomatic Service. But when this document reaches the embassy in Madrid, it will not apply to Spain because apparently that embassy is not allowed to boost British exports to Spain.
  Mr. Brown: That is not true.
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: The right hon. Gentleman bawls out that it is not true, but we have already lost an order for £11 million from Spain.
  Mr. Brown: For what?
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: For naval construction.
  Mr. Brown: We are not talking of armaments. We are talking of trade.
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: Are not arms trade? Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that, while our embassies in general are to be asked to step up British exports, the staff of the embassy in Madrid are to sit back with their arms folded while those with naval construction contracts to place are no longer in London but in Washington, Paris or Bonn, which are getting orders which were virtually in our pockets at one time? If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that that is the wisest way to boost British exports, I profoundly disagree with him.
  Mr. Brown: In that case, why not send arms to Russia or China?
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: Spain is not in any case on the strategic list.
  Mr. Ioan L. Evans: Is the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) making a case that the Government should sell arms to all countries?
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I am simply saying, on the basis of boosting British exports, that one cannot discriminate between one country and another, except on the strategic list. I am simply claiming that naval orders which we could have got from Spain are not on the strategic list. They are being taken instead, therefore, by the Americans, the French and to some extent by the Germans, all of whom are our N.A.T.O. allies.
  In the Labour manifesto and a great many speeches made by the right hon. Member the First Secretary of State and others in the election campaign, there was a lot which bore no relation in terms of defence to what is going on now. I seem to remember the right hon. Gentleman and others waxing very eloquent upon the subject of saving defence costs.
  Mr. Brown: Not me.
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: The right hon. Gentleman did not want to save defence costs.
  Mr. Brown: I never said that.
  Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: The right hon. Gentleman never suggested that there could be savings on nuclear forces and in making the conventional forces more efficient. He must have been the odd man out, therefore. We were told that our conventional forces could be stepped up and our weapons made more efficient. We were also told that the Labour Government would get rid of a lot of oversea bases which were costing a lot of money and which were quite unnecessary.
  Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was the odd man out in that as well. Some very funny things have happened since. The Deputy-Secretary of State for Defence has been to the Far East and, quite properly, has underwritten and reaffirmed the guarantee of the defence of Malaysia. What is more, the Prime Minister has retained part at least of the V-bomber force for use east of Suez. That was not said in the election speeches.
  In the light of the reaffirmed pledge of the defence of Malaysia, what is happening to the bases that hon. Members opposite talked about? Where are these bases that were to be done away with? Are they, indeed, to be done away with? Is Hong Kong included? I think not,
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  for it is in a special category. Is Singapore to be included? I would be very surprised if it were because, without it, we could not supply Malaysia. Is it to be the Aden base? If so, the Government would be doing away with the only staging post or port where ships and aircraft can be refuelled and troops acclimatised. In other words, none of the bases along the Far East route which the Labour Party said during the pre-election period that it would get rid of is to go, for the Government have found that they cannot get rid of any of them. At least we can congratulate them on having come some way back into some kind of sense before the end of the 100 days.
  The order of priorities of the famous 100 days was all wrong. The Government were obsessed with doing something. They acted first, talked afterwards and thought last. I hope that before the next 100 days are up—if they survive the next 100 days—the process will be reversed and they will sit down quietly and first think out some of the problems, then talk about them and finally decide on a course of action. If they do that, they might get some way out of the mess and restore some of the confidence in the country which they have lost.
  8.46 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Lever: The hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C.Mott-Radclyffe)has made a speech not untypical of the thinness of argument in support of this Motion of censure. Like his predecessors in title on the other side of the House, he made great play with the fact that the Government introduced a 7 per cent. Bank Rate, as though that were a unique attribute of the Government. It seems that if within a matter almost of hours of taking office the Government are compelled by financial pressure to impose a 7 per cent. Bank Rate, that is evidence of serious financial and political misdemeanour, while when on two previous occasions, after six years and 10 years, respectively, of comfortably wielding power, a Tory Chancellor introduced a 7 per cent. Bank Rate, that was mere financial prudence dictated by the unfortunate financial rhythms which were imposed regretfully on a sagacious Conservative Administration.

  997
  As to the suggestion that businessmen cannot live with uncertainty and have all been thrown into extreme panic by the mere suggestion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may impose a corporation tax and a capital gains tax, we on this side of the House are put in difficulty when, like myself, we have zealously defended the City's position as a national asset and when we have stressed the necessity of encouraging the lively private enterprise therein contained. If businessmen in the City are thrown into such a state of maidenly dither by the mere threat of an alteration in tax rates that they cannot get on with their business, some of their more severe critics on this side of the House are more justified than I had s apposed.
  I want in the few minutes at my disposal—and I shall be very brief—to say that the Leader of the Opposition has adopted a fundamentally wrong approach in inviting us to show a lack of confidence in the Government by seeking to survey the measures which the Government have taken to see whether we can discover some imperfection or fault, whether in their timing or execution. The real question to ask some three months after the Government have taken office is whether they are addressing themselves to the major problems of the country in the kind of way that enlightened opinion demanded when it gave a significant vote against the last Government. I have concluded that on all major issues they have replaced drift and lack of confidence and lack of intelligence and zeal with a determination to tackle the country's real problems.
  For example, almost within hours of coming to power they faced the problem of pressure on sterling and imposed a 7 per cent. Bank Rate. What is worth considering in the context of a Motion of censure is not whether they might have produced this Bank Rate change an hour or two earlier, or ended it a week or two sooner than might be the case, but whether with a 7 per cent. Bank Rate they are tackling the consequential problems which were so helplessly evaded by previous Tory Administrations in these circumstances, namely, how to protect the £ with a high Bank Rate temporarily
  998
  without throttling back all the efforts to increase production. This was a problem which the Tories never faced. This is a problem which we are facing.
  For example, the Tories, in imposing a 7 per cent. Bank Rate, wished to solve but did nothing about solving the problem of the impact of high Bank Rate on financing exports. The Government, in a relatively short time, have got down to tackling that problem. Instead of the impotent non possumus of the Tory Party, we have formulated measures so that a high Bank Rate shall not have a throttling effect on exports. I am sure that in a relatively short time we shall see in various ways the impact of a 7 per cent. Bank Rate on our economy, but in the sensitive and important capital expenditure of both private industry and public industry we will see the Government taking measures to shield those industries and capital expenditure from the kind of stop-go consequences which flowed while the Tories were in power.
  Much has been made of the fact that in the relatively short time of three months the Government have not produced a comprehensive solution to the complex problem of preventing the consequences which happened earlier of a 7 per cent. Bank Rate on people's homes and the rates of interest which they have to pay in financing them. The Tories were faced with this problem and I am sure that they sincerely wished to solve it, but they were never able to begin to attempt such a solution. It can be confidently stated that the Government will produce a solution for that problem, too, in the not too distant future. At any rate, they are not throwing up their hands helplessly and ignoring the problem and saying that nothing can be done about it.
  If I had time, I could go comprehensively through the major problems which are facing the Government. What is important is not whether the Protection from Eviction Bill has a detailed imperfection of drafting or timing in it, but that the Government are tackling one of the great domestic problems of the country, and that they are doing so in a manner which repudiates the callous anachronism which permits the homes of millions of our fellow citizens to be at the unrestricted whim and say-so of private landlords.

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  What matters about the Land Commission is not whether we will immediately and everywhere produce a solution to the land problem, but instead of helplessly saying that nothing can be done, as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said, the Government are attempting to solve a problem on which enlightened opinion is united, namely, rocketing land prices. The Government, with all energy and zeal, are seeking to find a solution. There is no doubt that some solution, even if it is not perfect, will be found.
  The same is true of old-age pensions. It is not of fundamental importance whether old-age pensions could be increased a few weeks later or earlier. What matters is that by increasing the old-age pensions the Government have recognised that economic advance and social justice must march hand-in-hand. That is the kind of consideration which concerns me.
  I could go through the list of things which the Government have done, including the First Secretary of State's achievement on an incomes policy. The Government have invaded an area where drift had appertained in the past, and they have invaded it with energy and a great deal of success. What matters is not that a perfect incomes policy should be achieved overnight but that the Government are actively taking steps to achieve the best possible incomes and wages policy open to them and are preparing the ground for such a policy.
  Not only am I unable to disagree with the Opposition's Motion of no confidence in the Government; I feel that in all these areas their behaviour stands in inspired contrast with that of their predecessors in tackling the country's problems.
  In considering the alternative Government, perhaps I may be permitted to say a word of profound regret from this side of the House that the man with the most constructive and progressive mind in the Tory Party has found it impossible to remain on the Opposition Front Bench and to offer himself for further service to the country. It is a sad reflection on the Conservative Party that at the age of 62 one of its wisest, most experienced and statesmanlike men who is much respected in the House and who has a vast record
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  of public service in many Departments should find himself compelled to leave politics because he sees no future on the Opposition Front Bench and no hope, presumably, of his talents being satisfactorily used by it.
  The Government have done badly at two by-elections. There were very special circumstances and there were very trying immediate—[Interruption.] There were special circumstances. They have been much commented upon and analysed, but I see no reasons why the Government's record of achievement will not impressively sink home as time goes on and as their efforts are successful and understood by the people.
  It is interesting to me that abroad the Government's reputation is already rocketing. The £ sterling is stronger than when the Conservatives were in office. What I find difficult to understand is how an economy which, we were told, was at the apotheosis of its steadiness when handed over to us a few weeks ago should, merely on the basis of timing and execution alleged against us by the Tory Party, so soon be in such a parlous condition. It has not been documented in their argument.
  The Government should continue, as they are now doing, tackling every major problem unafraid of the fact that the Conservative Party did not feel able to achieve any success in these problems which so oppressed the economy. In housing, the Land Commission, taxation and social services, the Government in a very short time have a record of which they are rightly proud.
  The Tory Party prefer passive inaction to energy and successful achievement by the Government. I urge the Government to continue and I am sure that when they have their record of achievement fully before and understood by the country, they will receive a further renewal of the country's and the people's confidence.
  8.58 p.m.
  Mr. Reginald Maudling: The debate has included two maiden speeches. One of them, by my hon. Friend the Member for the Langstone Division of Portsmouth (Mr. Ian Lloyd), which I had the pleasure of hearing, was, I think everyone would agree, particularly thoughtful and interesting. The passages which my hon. Friend gave us about the

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  reasons why he came to this country and his analysis of many of our political problems were such as to lead us all to look forward to hearing from him again soon and often. The other maiden speech, which, I regret, I did not hear, was from the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Alan Williams), but I gather from those who listened to him that his speech also was persuasive and of excellent quality.
  In an episode which occurred when I was not present but of which I have a report, I understand that the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell), in an interruption, said something about me and my activities which I must take seriously, even coming from the hon. Member. If the report which I have received of what the hon. Member said bears any relation to his words, it has no truth whatever and I trust that when he has reflected upon it he will either withdraw or apologise, or both.
  Mr. Maxwell: I will not withdraw. It is a fact that the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a most irresponsible way, attacked sterling and the actions of the Government in defending it. His friends in the City will all testify to the fact that his actions have encouraged British businessmen in buying sterling forward in such quantities as to do us incalculable harm.
  Mr. Maudling: I must look at the record. I understood the hon. Gentleman said that I was inviting people to sell sterling short. If he said that, it is wholly untrue, and unworthy even of him. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]
  In the course of his speech the Prime Minister made a statement about the aircraft industry. It was a very important statement, and I am sure that it is one which will need full debate on a suitable occasion. The implications for the aircraft industry as a whole, and for some of the units in the industry, are clearly very serious indeed, and we on this side of the House will want to study them, as I am sure the whole House will, and debate them on a suitable occasion.
  Certainly several matters are obscure, and I think need clarification. To give only one example, a comparison was made between the cost of the TSR2 and the American TFX, but we are not clear
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  whether the comparison was with the Mark I or the Mark II aircraft. Nor is it clear how such an accurate assessment can be given of the saving claimed by the Government in buying American when the cost of the American equipment must itself be so highly uncertain. That is the sort of point which I think needs further probing, and which we shall certainly wish to do on a suitable occasion in a full debate.
  I turn now to the subject of this Motion of censure which invites the House to declare that we have no confidence whatever in the ability of the present Government to manage the affairs of this country. This invitation has already been gleefully accepted by the voters of Leyton and Nuneaton, whatever may be said by the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) about special factors. Whether the special factor in both cases was merely the choice of an unsuitable candidate, I do not know. What the other special factors are, I cannot imagine. The verdict of those electors on the first 100 days was, however, crystal clear, and was wholly condemnatory. We therefore ask the House this evening to vote in condemnation of this Government, and to show its lack of confidence in this Government. For the benefit of the Leader of the Liberal Party, I say that we have no hesitation at all in doing all we possibly can to bring about the defeat of this Government at the earliest possible moment.
  Mr. Hooson Mr. Hooson rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Maudling: Seldom can any Government have achieved such a complete loss of confidence in themselves both at home and abroad in such a short period, and the reasons are clear. It has been a tale of confusion and folly, discord and chaos, and we now have a Government of abuse and excuse. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault—the wicked building societies, who, I think, are doing a pretty good amount to encourage housing in this country; the traders, who I thought were co-operating in the Government's incomes policy; the bankers, who have just done the most important thing to increase the export finances of this country; and the gnomes of Zurich, whom we always hear about,

  1003
  who I think played a not inconsiderable part in helping to support sterling in the latter part of last year.
  It is always someone else who makes the mistakes, never the party opposite, never the Government. But of course their major and favourite alibi is the one of the Tory legacy, the one the Prime Minister paraded again this afternoon with an unusual list of bogus statistics, even more bogus than usual. But what the party opposite has not noticed is that steadily, in the last few weeks, its own figures have been blowing its excuse to smithereens.
  The Government say that they came into power at a time when production was stagnating, and when the balance of payments was deteriorating. In fact, the figures in the Government's own publications now show that when they came into power production was at record levels and rapidly climbing, and that our exports were doing the same. In November, 1964, production was 7 points up on a year before. In 1964 the output of the construction industries rose by 12 per cent.; steel, both in terms of output and exports, reached record levels, and the motor industry boomed both in the home market and in exports. These are the facts of what was happening to the economy in 1964.
  On more than one occasion the Chancellor of the Exchequer said how grieved he was to have to tell the House that we had had only a 2 per cent. growth rate in 1964. He is very sorry about this. I can bring him a message of good cheer. If he examines his own figures he will find that the rate of growth in industry between November, 1963, and November, 1964—the latest 12 months period for which figures are available—was between 5 per cent. and 6 per cent. I do not know what that means in terms of national output, but it is far nearer 4 per cent. than the 2 per cent. which he has talked about.
  When I asked him what was the increase in national output up to November, 1964, he said that the figures were not then available. In that case I am not quite clear where his figure of 2 per cent. comes from. The fact is that in the last 12 months of the Conservative Government we saw a rate of increase of between 5 per cent. and 6 per cent.
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  per annum in industrial production. If the party opposite have abandoned the 4 per cent. growth rate target, we have not—and we have achieved it. I state the facts; the Chancellor does not.
  Hon. Members opposite say that we have twisted the figures. I turn to the First Secretary. I want to put a serious point to him. He accused us of cooking the books, which I take to be an accusation that false figures were deliberately produced—because cooking the books means nothing else. He has made the accusation that false figures about the economy were deliberately produced. In this House I cannot use the word "lie", because it is unparliamentary. That does not stop him from using it outside about me, fairly often. I say that there is not one word of truth in this, and that the right hon. Gentleman ought to know it.
  Let the right hon. Gentleman tell me what figures that we produced were deliberately false. Were the figures of the balance of trade wrong? Were the figures of the balance of payments wrong? Were the figures relating to gold reserves wrong? What were these false figures?
  Mr. George Brown: There were quite a number. For a start, the right hon. Gentleman might deal with the Post Office.
  Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that figures which were known to be false were deliberately published by the Post Office.
  Mr. Brown Mr. Brown indicated assent.
  Mr. Maudling: This is a serious matter. The accusation of cooking the books can refer to nothing else than the publication of figures known to be false by the people publishing them. I cannot imagine a more serious charge. If the right hon. Gentleman produces this charge in by election campaigns and will neither justify it nor withdraw it, he must expect to be treated with the contempt that he deserves.
  Mr. Brown: I repeat, the Post Office. The Government published figures that they knew to be false, having cut out figures they knew should be there. Now that I have justified it, can the right hon. Gentleman show that I am wrong?
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Mr. Maudling: If the right hon. Gentleman says that figures were published by the Post Office which were known to be false at the time—that is what he did say—then we must have this out. But so far as the Treasury is concerned—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."]—and I suspect that he was talking about the Treasury, because it is the Treasury that publishes the nation's accounts—no figure was ever emended, no figure was ever delayed. In the middle of the election we published the balance of payments figures for the second quarter of the year without emendation, without delay. It is a disgraceful accusation.
  I turn to the other argument put forward by the party opposite about the balance of payments, about the £800 million. I have said that this figure is an exaggeration. I repeat it again tonight. But it is nothing like as big an exaggeration as the Prime Minister's figure this afternoon. He took the third quarter and multiplied it by four. Talk about spreading alarm and despondency abroad. The figure of £1,100 million coming this afternoon from the Prime Minister was not exactly helpful. On statistical grounds one knows perfectly well that of the so-called gap, more than half will be shown clearly to be either overseas investments or the repayments of old debts and that three-quarters of the deficit for the year had been handled, and handled effectively, without damage to the confidence in sterling before this Government took over.
  Look at the Prime Minister's famous speech on 23rd November to which my right hon. Friend referred earlier. He said quite clearly that the resources available were perfectly adequate at that time to cover the trade gap. He said himself, quite clearly, that the crisis of confidence it sterling was something that arose subsequently, a few days before 23rd November when he made this speech. I was interested in the Prime Minister's statistics. This afternoon he produced some figures about the visible balance of payments, the visible balance of trade. He produced them up to the third quarter of last year, but the fourth quarter he did not mention. In fact it was so much better, that is why he did not mention it. I remember the Chancellor of the Exchequer making a speech in December, I think during the Third Reading of
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  the Finance Bill, asking where were the exports I was talking about, where was the great increase in exports. He could not see it, but it was happening at that very moment. Despite delays at the docks, British exporters were piling up the highest export total ever achieved. The number of orders in order books in the engineering industry rose sharply in November at home, and even more so abroad. The fact is that the figures for December show that the balance on current account was virtually level; that the deficit on current account in December had, in effect, been eliminated. None of this has anything whatever to do with the Government.
  I am sure that if the Prime Minister were present—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—he would agree that the surcharge had no significant effect whatever on December trade figures; and that, after all, is what has been said by the Board of Trade. As to exports, the only effect of Government policy on exports by December had been the result of the 7 per cent. Bank Rate with the cost load on export finance of the effect of the surcharge and the inevitable effect of the retaliation which businessmen have experienced from many countries which were so shaken by the way in which this surcharge was imposed.
  We had quite clearly from the Government's own recently published statistics the fact that in the fourth quarter of last year—as we always said it would—without any influence from them production was at record levels and rising exports were precisely the same. This is the fact of their inheritance. As to the sterling crisis, as the Prime Minister's speech in November showed clearly, the cause was the complete and sudden collapse of confidence at home and abroad in the ability of this Government to govern once people had seen what they were doing and how they were doing it. I do not think that it was so much a matter of their doing things which were wrong as the way in which they did them. They had not the faintest idea what they were doing and they seldom had any idea of the consequences of their actions.
  To turn to the way in which the surcharge was handled, the Prime Minister said this afternoon, "We understand well the feelings of our trading partners." Good heavens, if anything could be more the contrary of established truth than

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  that, I should like to hear it. The one thing the Government have not understood is the feeling of our trading partners. If only they had given them more warning in advance. If only they could have avoided giving the impression that the Americans were informed before our friends in E.F.T.A. These are the things which matter in Europe. We all of us see many people in Europe, and those of us who have talked to them know that what really annoyed them and what sunk into people's minds in E.F.T.A., in particular, was the way in which this was handled, the lack of consultation, the suggestion that any objection was mere spitefulness. This, together with the extraordinary blunder of the Concord, picking out this one Anglo-French project and highlighting this so-called prestige project, this extraordinary blundering in international relations, is the first charge against the Government—the real damage which they have done to our international position and our international trade.
  I turn to Bank Rate. Here again they clearly have no idea what they are doing. They started off by saying that they would not increase Bank Rate. Incidentally, they blamed me for not having done it earlier, but that is another story. And then, finally, they were forced into it in a panic measure, in a form in which it had no effect, because it pushed money out instead of drawing it in. What did the Chancellor think the Bank Rate was supposed to do? On 24th November he said that the rise in Bank Rate
  "… is a reinforcement of our earlier measures to check the pressure of demand."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Tuesday, 24th November, 1964; Vol. 702, c. 1103.]
  And yet the very day before the same Chancellor said:
  "I hope it will not work through the domestic economy for reasons that will be obvious to the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Monday, 23rd November; Vol. 702, c. 916.]
  If the reasons are obvious, the logic is not. But, of course, the effect of Bank Rate and the general move in interest rates has been very serious for house purchasers. As Mr. Three Per Cent. himself is answering the debate, I want to know where we stand on this, because I think that there is no doubt that the impression given to many people in this country was that a Labour Government would do something about reducing the
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  cost of housing loans. Of course, the effect of their policy has been to drive up the cost of housing to unprecedented levels. It is no good the Chancellor blaming the building societies. On 19th January he made a statement in which he said that for the time being he was going to leave the interest rates charged on the quota of loans which the local authorities draw unchanged, but he did not say that, at the same time, on the generality of Public Works Loan Board rates the Government intended to raise the rate from 6⅛ per cent. to 6⅞ per cent. or 7 per cent. And when the Government put up the cost of money to local authorities to 7 per cent., the local authorities have to charge well over 7 per cent. to house purchasers. Why, then, should the building societies be blamed for charging higher rates?
  It is another example of muddle and misunderstanding and self-contradiction. The right hon. Gentleman should know that building societies have to charge to borrowers what they have to pay to draw in the funds which they need. They are not wicked capitalist organisations giving lush dividends to top-hatted shareholders. They are mutual organisations. They are institutions which help house-ownership by borrowing money and lending it again. They cannot lend money unless they can borrow it. If Government actions put up the general structure of interest rates in the way they have done, then of course building society rates will go up, too.
  Mr. Callaghan: Then why did the Chancellor of the Exchequer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—why did the right hon. Gentleman, who occupied Government office for so long out of the last 13 years, indicate to the building societies in August that he did not wish them to put up their interest rates and that he would prefer that these rates should remain down? If that were the case, why did not those economic considerations apply then?
  Mr. Maudling: It is one thing to discuss with building societies their interest rates policy, but it is their policy, and it is quite another thing to blame them for doing what they have to do.
  Mr. Callaghan: As the right hon. Gentleman raised the question of the structure of interest rates, may I ask

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  whether the same considerations did not then apply and why was it suggested that building societies should keep their interest rates down in August—unless it was because of the approach of a General Election?
  Mr. Maudling: It is always perfectly reasonable for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to discuss interest rates policy with any people who have a big influence on the money market of this country. What is unreasonable is for the Government to blame the building societies for doing something made necessary by the Government's own policy.
  I turn to the new corporation tax and the capital gains tax. This is a matter on which I think the First Secretary was rather cross with me for issuing a statement. I issued a statement when I failed to get any informaton from the Chancellor of the Exchequer about certain features of those two taxes because the impact upon British industry of the corporation tax, in particular, and of the capital gains tax could be very serious.
  There is no doubt that it is quite impossible to take one feature of the American tax system and to graft it on to the British system, the rest of which is entirely different from the American system. In trying to do this the Chancellor has created doubts and worries in the minds, particularly, of international companies operating from this country, who bring large resources into this country in foreign exchange and whose whole position might be revolutionised by a tax change of this kind. There is no doubt that there has been a definite effect upon investment. I know about the 10 per cent. figure taken in November, but let hon. Members look at the bank figures and let them talk to people who are investing. There is no doubt that there has been an effect upon the level of investment and, possibly more important, an effect on people investing from abroad in this country at a time when we particularly wanted that investment.
  I said on 15th December:
  "A very serious situation has been created by the Government's refusal to give more information about the corporation tax and the capital gains tax. The grave uncertainty is bound to have damaging effects on markets and on the strength of sterling."
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  That was a statement of fact, however much the First Secretary of State may dislike it, and I have yet to believe that it is approved constitutional doctrine that the Opposition should sit in approving silence when the Government make a hash of the economy and then refuse to put it right.
  These are the charges which we bring against the Government. We say that the sterling crisis of November, the resulting damage to this country's position in the world and the damage to our economy arose from the follies of the Government. This is shown by the Prime Minister's speech on 23rd November. They arose from those follies and from nothing else. The situation occurred for one reason—because they lost their nerve and because they were determined to make everything look as black as possible to suit their own party interests. This is the fundamental ground on which we censure the Government and declare our total lack of confidence in them.
  9.25 p.m.
  The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. George Brown): I would say, on the whole not a bad speech. Only two people were upset by it—the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) and, I suspect, the chairman of Kleinwort Benson, because if the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) figures in the City as he figured here tonight, heaven knows what will happen to that company's investments.
  In the course of the debate there have been two maiden speeches, one from the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd), which I heard, and one from my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Alan Williams), part of which I heard. May I join the right hon. Gentleman in saying very sincerely to both hon. Members that they made a very distinguished debut—I am bound to say a good deal more distinguished than the one I made—and we all look forward very much to hearing them both again.
  As we come to the end of the debate, anybody summing it up is bound to have one problem: that is, trying to identify the purpose of the Motion. Clearly, it has nothing to do with the state of the nation or with the future of the nation. Neither the terms of the Motion nor the

  1011
  speech of the Leader of the Opposition had anything to do with either. To judge from the terms of the Motion and from the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, there might never have been any problems facing this country. I agree on this point with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party. [Laughter.] There is nothing wrong in the whole country knowing that the idea of anybody agreeing with the Liberals is derisory in the view of the Conservative Party. On this limited point I do agree with them. That is, that the only connection between the Motion and the Leader of the Opposition's speech today was the old familiar party dogfight. I know from my contacts in the country—but the party opposite does not know—that there is nothing that the people in the country are so fed up with as the old sterile party dogfight.
  Sometimes the House can act extraordinarily out of touch with the feeling of its constituents. So it did early this afternoon, and so obviously a part of it is determined to do tonight. It is not for me to join in that kind of battle, because there are much more worth-while things to discuss and, so far as I am allowed to discuss them, I shall do so.
  Just before I turn to the more worthwhile things in which people outside and a few people inside are interested, perhaps I can do something to sweeten the atmosphere by establishing a little inescapable background which, though I describe it as inescapable, seems somehow to have fallen out of the memory of the right hon. Member for Barnet. If it be true that this Government have hurried over their decisions in the last 13 weeks, this is because of the time the Tory Party wasted in the last 13 years.
  Secondly, if it be true that we have considered our decisions less fully than hon. and right hon. Members opposite think we should have done, the answer is the size, the nature and the urgency of the problems which they bequeathed to us. If it be true that the country was unprepared for the nature of the changes we had to ask it to make, the reason is the long and deliberate deception practised by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. They created the problems, they fashioned the mood, they evaded all the decisions, they debilitated the morale of the administrative machine. Our responsibility is
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  limited to trying to deal with the consequential mess which they left behind them.
  In my present mood of sweetness, let me say that since then their untiring efforts have been devoted to making it all the more difficult to clear up the mess and to inspiring and stimulating all the opposition they could possibly achieve. They had a noble and patriotic record before the election and they had the same one afterwards, and it has been the full run of Tory tradition for centuries.
  But having said a word about them, I must be fair and must not forget the Liberal Party before I turn to other matters. In this general atmosphere of sweetness and light, let me say to the Liberal Party that I believe that the terms of their Amendment on the Order Paper and of their Leader's speech today must be described as a work of art.
  Broadly speaking, as I understand it, they are against sin. They disapprove of sinners and they are in favour of all good works. Speaking as an Anglican, I must say that theologically that is a very good posture but in human and practical terms it must be regarded on the whole as a trifle idealistic. It is not surprising, therefore, that they have decided to contract out of the issue at the end of the day. I want to say to them that life has to go on. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] It may be a very good question for the hon. Member who asked "why", but someone has to fight. Someone has to fight for improvements and for development even though it means getting one's hands dirty. The result of the Liberal decision to abstain from voting tonight is that they leave it to Labour to go on alone as far as the radical Left of this country is concerned.
  After that non-controversial start, I come to the issues which we had to tackle all at once and all together when we came into office. I reiterate, as my right hon. Friend made clear earlier today, that it was no desire of ours that these questions should have to be tackled all at the same time, all in one package. But the fact remains that every difficult, complex and harsh decision had been postponed by right hon. Gentlemen opposite before the election, and no incoming Government, even their Administration if they had come back again, would have been able to avoid answering

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  the problems. No incoming Government would have had any choice except to make difficult and unhappy decisions for the most part.
  First, we dealt with the import-export gap, which the former Chancellor did not seem to think was there, and we operated against it on two fronts, as right hon. Members opposite would have had to do. One was on imports, which is where one can save most quickly. Right hon. Members opposite left behind a choice of remedies. They know exactly what they did. They left an enormous pile of paper on quantitative restrictions worked out to the last detail, and the right hon. Member for Barnet was in favour of this. Also, they left something on tariff surcharges. We had to decide, because those are for practical purposes, short of devaluation, the only two alternatives. One or the other would have been chosen by right hon. Members opposite had they been returned.
  We chose the surcharge because, of the two, it is the least permanent, it requires the least bureaucracy, it is the easiest to amend and to reduce, and it involves the least interference with the pattern of trade. It may well be that some hon. and right hon. Members opposite would have preferred the other, but what it is not open to them to say is that, if they had come back, they would not have chosen one or the other.
  Sir Cyril Osborne Sir Cyril Osborne (Louth) rose—
  Mr. Brown: Second, we went to work to get exports up. If one wants to maintain only a very temporary interference with imports, the answer for this trading nation is that exports must be stimulated. Since the beginning, by the rebate, by the announcements made last week, we have gone on giving as much assistance to exporters and to exports as our position under the G.A.T.T. and the Stockholm Convention will allow us to do.
  All of this has been done immediately, and, of course, the doing of it, in order to make our position a bit better quickly, hurts those who sell to us. But the situation had to be put right. We could not repeat that deficit this year and next year. What the nation needed was some help from the men who made the mess to explain why the remedies had to be taken.
  Sir C. Osborne Sir C. Osborne rose—
  Mr. Brown: Next, we decided, as the right hon. Gentleman said today that we should, that the country ought to accept that the urgent industrial requirement was to become more competitive. This, I accept, is an absolute, urgent requirement, particularly as we must not remain, or seem to remain, protective in any sense.
  What have we done to get more competition? We went straight away to get a prices and incomes policy. I am not very clear—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—hon. Gentlemen opposite carry their undergraduateness into old age; it never leaves them—whether right hon. Gentlemen opposite regard this as basic or not to becoming competitive, I do. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) thinks it is not. The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) thinks it is. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) both thinks it is and thinks it is not. But what does the Leader of the Opposition think? Is it?
  We are very much nearer actually establishing a policy than hon. Members opposite have ever been. The Trades Union Congress has already accepted it. I expect and hope next week to be able to tell the House that the manufacturers, the employers, have also accepted it. That will mean that the only sneerers and jeerers sit on the other side of the House?
  Sir J. Rodgers Sir J. Rodgers rose—
  Mr. Brown: We have also tried to break the spiral of price and wage advances in the interim. We have had a great deal of help. We have had help from businessmen, from people like Mr. Kearton of Courtaulds, from distributors, from paying Conservatives like Mr. Sieff. The only people who have obstructed us have been right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. [Interruption.] Does the Opposition Chief Whip want to know who? It was the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, who told all businessmen that they should refuse to bring their prices down.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd Mr. Selwyn Lloyd rose—
  Mr. Brown: Thirdly, we decided that the Government should re-examine the

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  commitments that we had been left on defence spending by the previous Administration. We set out to examine a situation where unless something was done we should not only be the only major nation in the world whose defence budget was rising but should have a defence budget which was absolutely rocketing, and with much of it being spent on weapons systems that never seemed to come into operation. We have, therefore, gone ahead to examine the problem.
  I shall not repeat what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said earlier, but I say to this House and to the country that if we are to get competitive, if we are to pay our way in the world, then we must stop wasting the money that we are wasting, we must stop misusing resources that are being misused and we must pay much more attention to effectiveness. [Interruption.] When the bucolic gentlemen opposite stop jeering they may remember that we are now doing what they did not do.
  One hon. Member who was paying more serious attention than the Front Bench opposite asked about the C130 and whether it could be powered with the British Tyne engine. We hope so. We are examining that proposal now, but it is not possible to say whether it is practicable. We certainly aim to have this done if it is possible.
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East) rose—
  Mr. Brown: I will come to Short Bros. and Harland in a moment.
  The fourth thing that we have set out to do is to redeploy resources and manpower. That is why we set out, as a matter of urgency, to provide measures to enable men and women to move more easily. One of the problems of our society is that if we have under-use of resources in the North-East and over-use in the South-East we are not able to get people to move because we have not made it possible for them to do so. [Interruption.] Folk outside are concerned about this, although hon. Members opposite may not be.
  That is why we are now pressing on with placing before the House proposals for severance pay and for wage-related unemployment benefits. That is why we
  1016
  have gone on quickly with arrangements for the effective regional planning of the use of our resources. That is why we are now having a national review of the resources that would be freed by any changes in the defence spending programme—in particular, in the case of the aircraft industry.
  It is not our purpose to leave people without jobs nor to leave factories underused. It is our purpose to see—unlike the party opposite—that they are used for things that will enable this country to pay its way and to expand the economy.
  I have been asked about Short Bros. and Harland. [Interruption.] Perhaps hon. Members opposite will let the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) hear me. We recognise that the abandonment of the HS681 will present that firm, which is largely publicly owned, with a particularly difficult problem, since it had been counting on getting a substantial share of the work. We are urgently considering what other work can be fed in to replace this. Shorts occupy a special place in the economy of Northern Ireland, and it is important that the fullest use should be made of the company's resources. We therefore propose to appoint consultants—[Interruption.] Hon. Members for Northern Ireland would no doubt like to report how their colleagues are reacting. If they do not, I will tell the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland myself. We therefore propose to appoint consultants to carry out a comprehensive review of the company's potential and to advise on making the best use of its labour force and its other assets. The consultants' review will be primarily concerned with the scope for redeploying Short's resources. It is not, of course, intended to prejudge the company's place in the aircraft industry which the Plowden Committee will be considering.
  Mr. McMaster: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that. Is he aware that the factory and the equipment at Short Bros. and Harland are suitable only for aircraft work? Can he give any undertaking that the design staff will be employed there?
  Mr. Brown: That is the purpose of asking the consultants to come in. I know the company well, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and I know the management well. I do not think he will find

  1017
  that this is badly received over there. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Gentleman can go and find out. I am making a carefully considered statement and I think that he will find that Short Bros. and Harland, and Belfast, are looked after by this Government far better than by the last.
  Fifthly in this programme is the drive for industrial modernisation and for a switch of effort. The Leader of the Liberal Party asked me this afternoon about the rate of growth. We have not abandoned the 4 per cent. growth rate. The fact is that when we came into power there was no 4 per cent. rate of growth. I shall be meeting the National Economic Development Council tomorrow morning when we shall be discussing the targets which we ought now to adopt.
  What I propose to suggest is that we should aim for a 25 per cent. growth in our national product by 1970. That would mean a very substantial rise in the rate of growth. We have to reach it as quickly as we can. It will mean starting as we are from a figure well below 4 per cent. We have to reach 4 per cent. and surpass it between now and 1970.
  The Economic Development Councils, the industrial advisers now working in the Department of Economic Affairs, all of whom with one exception are Conservatives and all of whom are managing directors or the equivalent of large companies have, unlike the sneerers opposite, come to help the nation—and some of our largest enterprises have been willing to pay their salaries so that they could work for the nation—a very good lesson for those opposite. The technological development with which we are pushing on and the attack on restrictive practices are all aimed at this. May I draw the attention of the House to paragraph 10 of the White Paper on Prices and Incomes?
  Never before in this country have we achieved this, and it is a tremendous indictment of right hon. and hon. Members opposite that they are not willing to say a word of tribute even to their own friends, let alone ours. The White Paper states:
  "We"—
  that is, the Trades Union Congress, the F.B.I., the B.E.C. and the Association of
  1018
  British Manufacturers and the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, without a single dissentient—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir J. Rodgers) is quite wrong. Will you listen? May I read it:
  "We"—
  that is—[Interruption.] No, you are quite wrong. Will you listen?
  "We, therefore undertake, on behalf of our members: to encourage and lead a sustained attack on the obstacles to efficiency, whether on the part of management or of workers, and to strive for the adoption of more rigorous standards of performance at all levels by both sides of industry"—
  something which hon. Members opposite could never achieve and which they are doing their best to sabotage. We are trying to put the economy on its feet. We have also made a beginning on an attack on the social evils which hon. Members opposite also left behind them.
  Sir A. Douglas-Home Sir A. Douglas-Home rose—
  Mr. Brown: I do not—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: I speak with some diffidence in the presence of right hon. Members who have been here longer than I have. We have had debates on Motions of censure before. I should think it most unlikely that they were conducted in silence, but I think that the House should be mindful of its reputation.
  Mr. Brown: I do not give way because I have only two minutes left. When the Leader of the Opposition was asked to intervene this afternoon, he would not do so. He just sat there.
  All that I can say at the end of this debate is this. This is the way that we have tackled—[Interruption.]—the right hon. Member for Bexley is such a shouter in here, such a little man outside, so much smaller than he looks—this is the way that we have tackled the situation. The present position of our nation, as shown by every City page today, is far better than it was when we came to power—ask the City editors, ask Douglas Dillon, ask the European banks. All that hon. Members opposite can do is bellow, sneer and shout while we do the job.
  Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 289, Noes 306.

  Division No. 51.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Commander Sir Peter

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Emery, Peter

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Farr, John

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W.

  Fell, Anthony

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Astor, John

  Fisher, Nigel

  Longbottom, Charles

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Awdry, Daniel

  Fletcher-Cooke, Sir John (S'pton)

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Forrest, George

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Balniel, Lord

  Foster, Sir John

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Barlow, Sir John

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Batsford, Brian

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

  Bell, Ronald

  Gammans, Lady

  McMaster, Stanley

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Gardner, Edward

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maginnis, John E.

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan

  Maitland, Sir John

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Biffen, John

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Marten, Neil

  Bingham, R. M.

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Mathew, Robert

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Maude, Angus

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Goodhew, Victor

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Blaker, Peter

  Gower, Raymond

  Mawby, Ray

  Bossom, Hn Clive

  Grant, Anthony

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Box, Donald

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. J.

  Gresham-Cooke, R.

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Grieve, Percy

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Braine, Bernard

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Brewis, John

  Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Gurden, Harold

  Mitchell, David

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Monro, Hector

  Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  More, Jasper

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

  Morgan, W. G.

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Bryan, Paul

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Murton, Oscar

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Neave, Airey

  Buck, Antony

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Maccles'd)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Burden, F. A.

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard

  Buxton, R. C.

  Hawkins, Paul

  Onslow, Cranley

  Campbell, Gordon

  Hay, John

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Carlisle, Mark

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Hendry, Forbes

  Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Chataway, Christopher

  Hiley Joseph

  Page, R. Graham (Crosby)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hill J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Peel, John

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Percival, Ian

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

  Peyton John

  Cole, Norman

  Hopkins, Alan

  Pickthorn, Rt. Hn. Sir Kenneth

  Cooke, Robert

  Hordern, Peter

  Pike Miss Mervyn

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hornby, Richard

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame P.

  Pounder, Rafton

  Cordle, John

  Howard, Hn. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Corfield, F. V.

  Howe, Geoffrey (Bebington)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Costain, A. P.

  Hunt, John (Bromley)

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Pym, Francis

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Crawley, Aidan

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Jenkin Patrick (Woodford)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Crowder, F. P.

  Jennings, J. C.

  Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Curran, Charles

  Jones Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Jopling, Michael

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Dance, James

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr)

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge)

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Dean, Paul

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Roots, William

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Kitson, Timothy

  Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

  Doughty, Charles

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Lambton, Viscount

  Sharples, Richard

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Shepherd, William

  Eden, Sir John

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  1020

  1021

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Webster, David

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Smyth, Rt. Hn. Brig. Sir John

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Conway)

  Whitelaw, William

  Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Speir, Sir Rupert

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Stainton, Keith

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Wise, A. R.

  Stanley, Hn. Richard

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Stodart, J. A.

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Woodhouse, Hon. Christopher

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Walder, David (High Peak)

  Wylie, N. R.

  Talbot, John E.

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Younger, Hn. George

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Wall, Patrick

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Walters, Dennis

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Teeling, Sir William

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Mr. McLaren and Mr. MacArthur

  Temple, John M.

  Weatherill, Bernard

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Driberg, Tom

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Albu, Austen

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Dunn, James A.

  Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline)

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hunter, A. E. (Feltham)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  English, Michael

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Ennals, David

  Jackson, Colin

  Barnett, Joel

  Ensor, David

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Baxter, William

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Beaney, Alan

  Evans, Ioan (Birmingham, Yardley)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

  Bence, Cyril

  Finch, Harold (Bedwellty)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Fletcher, Sir Eric (Islington, E.)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Binns, John

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Blackburn, F.

  Floud, Bernard

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Foley, Maurice

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Boardman, H.

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Boston, T. G.

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Kelley, Richard

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Ford, Ben

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics S. W.)

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Boyden, James

  Freeson, Reginald

  Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

  Bradley, Tom

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Lawson, George

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Garrett, W. E.

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Garrow, A.

  Ledger, Ron

  Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)

  Ginsburg, David

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & Fbury)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.)

  Gregory, Arnold

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Buchanan, Richard

  Grey, Charles

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Griffiths, Will (M'chester, Exchange)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Carmichael, Neil

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Hale, Leslie

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McBride, Neil

  Chapman, Donald

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  McCann, J.

  Coleman Donald

  Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.)

  MacColl, James

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hannan, William

  MacDermot, Niall

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Harper, Joseph

  McGuire, Michael

  Cousins, Frank

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  McInnes, James

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Cronin, John

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mackie, John (Enfield, E.)

  Crosland, Anthony

  Hazell, Bert

  McLeavy, Frank

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. R. H. S.

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  MacMillan, Malcolm

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Heffer, Eric S.

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Dalyell, Tam

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Darling, George

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Holman, Percy

  Manuel, Archie

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Horner, John

  Mapp, Charles

  de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Marsh, Richard

  Delargy, Hugh

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Mason, Roy

  Dell, Edmund

  Howarth, Robert L. (Bolton, E.)

  Maxwell, Robert

  Diamond, John

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Dodds, Norman

  Howie, W.

  Mellish, Robert

  Doig, Peter

  Hoy, James

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Millan, Bruce

  1022

  1023

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Randall, Harry

  Taverne, Dick

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Rankin, John

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Molloy, William

  Redhead, Edward

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Monslow, Walter

  Rees, Merlyn

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Morris, Charles (Openshaw)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Thornton, Ernest

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Richard, Ivor

  Tinn, James

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (SheffieldPk)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Tomney, Frank

  Murray, Albert

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Neal, Harold

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Newens, Stan

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. K. (St.Pancras,N.)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn.Philip (Derby, S.)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Norwood, Christopher

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Rowland, Christopher

  Wallace, George

  Ogden, Eric

  Sheldon, Robert

  Warbey, William

  O'Malley, Brian

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  Watkins, Tudor

  Oram, Albert E. (E. Ham, S.)

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Weitzman, David

  Orbach, Maurice

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Orme, Stanley

  Silkin, John (Deptford)

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Oswald, Thomas

  Silkin, S. C. (Camberwell, Dulwich)

  Whitlock, William

  Owen, Will

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Padley, Walter

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Paget, R. T.

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Small, William

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Park, Trevor (Derbyshire, S. E.)

  Snow, Julian

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Solomons, Henry

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Soskice, Rt. Hn. Sir Frank

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Steele, Thomas

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Pentland, Norman

  Stonehouse, John

  Woof, Robert

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Stones, William

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Summerskill, Dr. Shirley

  Zilliacus, K.

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Swain, Thomas

  Probert, Arthur

  Swingler, Stephen

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Symonds, J. B.

  Mr. Short and Mr. George Rogers.

  Question put, That the proposed words be there added:—
  The House divided: Ayes 306, Noes 289.

  Division No. 52.]

  AYES

  [10.14 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Carmichael, Neil

  Ensor, David

  Albu, Austen

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Evans, Ioan (Birmingham, Yardley)

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Chapman, Donald

  Fernyhough, E.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Coleman, Donald

  Finch, Harold (Bedwellty)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Conlan, Bernard

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Fletcher, Sir Eric (Islington, E.)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Cousins, Frank

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Barnett, Joel

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Floud, Bernard

  Baxter, William

  Cronin, John

  Foley, Maurice

  Beaney, Alan

  Crosland, Anthony

  Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hn. F. J.

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. R. H. S.

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Bence, Cyril

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Ford, Ben

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Dalyell, Tam

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Darling, George

  Freeson, Reginald

  Binns, John

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Bishop, E. S.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Blackburn, F.

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Garrow, A.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  Boardman, H.

  de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey

  Ginsburg, David

  Boston, T. G.

  Delargy, Hugh

  Gourlay, Harry

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Dell, Edmund

  Gregory, Arnold

  Bowden Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics S. W.)

  Diamond, John

  Grey, Charles

  Boyden, James

  Dodds, Norman

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Bradley, Tom

  Doig, Peter

  Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Griffiths, Will (M'chester, Exchange)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Driberg, Tom

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hale, Leslie

  Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)

  Dunn, James A.

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & Fbury)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.)

  Buchanan, Richard

  Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Hannan, William

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Harper, Joseph

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  English, Michael

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Ennals, David

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Hattersley, Roy

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Rowland, Christopher

  Hazell, Bert

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Sheldon, Robert

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Shore, Peter (Stepney)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Manuel, Archie

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Mapp, Charles

  Silkin, John (Deptford)

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Marsh, Richard

  Silkin, S. C. (Camberwell, Dulwich)

  Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K' town)

  Mason, Roy

  Silverman Julius (Aston)

  Holman, Percy

  Maxwell, Robert

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Horner, John

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mellish, Robert

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Howarth, Robert L. (Bolton, E.)

  Millan, Bruce

  Small, William

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Howie, W.

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Snow, Julian

  Hoy, James

  Molloy, William

  Solomons, Henry

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Monslow, Walter

  Soskice, Rt. Hn. Sir Frank

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Morris, Charles (Openshaw)

  Steele, Thomas

  Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline)

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Stonehouse John

  Hunter, A. E. (Feltham)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (SheffieldPk)

  Stones, William

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Murray, Albert

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Neal, Harold

  Summerskill, Dr. Shirley

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Newens, Stan

  Swain, Thomas

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Swingler, Stephen

  Jackson, Colin

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Symonds, J. B.

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Norwood, Christopher

  Taverne, Dick

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Oakes, Gordon

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Ogden, Eric

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Oram, Albert E. (E. Ham S.)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Thornton, Ernest

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Orme, Stanley

  Tinn, James

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Tomney, Frank

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Owen, Will

  Tuck, Raphael

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham,S.)

  Padley, Walter

  Urwin, T. W.

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Paget, R. T.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Kelley, Richard

  Palmer, Arthur

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Wallace, George

  Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

  Park, Trevor (Derbyshire, S. E.)

  Warbey, William

  Lawson, George

  Parkin, B. T.

  Watkins, Tudor

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Weitzman, David

  Ledger, Ron

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Pentland, Norman

  Whitlock, William

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Wigg, Rt. Hn. George

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Probert, Arthur

  Williams, Ll. (Abertillery)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Williams Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Loughlin Charles

  Randall, Harry

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Rankin, John

  Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)

  McBride, Neil

  Redhead, Edward

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harlod (Huyton)

  McCann, J.

  Rees, Merlyn

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  MacColl, James

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  MacDermot, Niall

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  McGuire, Michael

  Richard, Ivor

  Woof, Robert

  McInnes, James

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Zilliacus, K.

  Mackie, John (Enfield, E.)

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. K. (St. Pancras, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  McLeavy, Frank

  Rodgers, William (Stockton)

  Mr. Short and Mr. George Rogers.

  MacMillan, Malcolm

  Rose, Paul B.

  NOES

  Agnew, Commander Sir Peter

  Bell, Ronald

  Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Braine, Bernard

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Brewis, John

  Allason, James (Hemel, Hempstead)

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W.

  Biffen, John

  Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry

  Astor, John

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Bingham, R. M.

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Awdry, Daniel

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Bryan, Paul

  Baker, W. H. K.

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Balniel, Lord

  Blaker, Peter

  Buck, Antony

  Barlow, Sir John

  Bossom, Hn. Clive

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Batsford, Brian

  Box, Donald

  Burden, F. A.

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. J.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  1026

  1027

  Buxton, R. C.

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

  Campbell, Gordon

  Hendry, Forbes

  Peel, John

  Carlisle, Mark

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Percival, Ian

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Hiley, Joseph

  Peyton, John

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Pickthorn, Rt. Hn. Sir Kenneth

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Chataway, Christopher

  Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

  Pounder, Rafton

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Hopkins, Alan

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Hordern, Peter

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Hornby, Richard

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Cole, Norman

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame P.

  Pym, Francis

  Cooke, Robert

  Howard, Hn. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Howe, Geoffrey (Bebington)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Hunt, John (Bromley)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Cordle, John

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin

  Corfield, F. V.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Costain, A. P.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Jennings, J. C.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Crawley, Aidan

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Crowder, F. P.

  Jopling, Michael

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Roots, William

  Curran, Charles

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

  Dance, James

  Kilfedder, James A.

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Sharples, Richard

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  King-Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Shepherd, William

  Dean, Paul

  Kitson, Timothy

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Lambton, Viscount

  Smyth, Rt. Hn. Brig. Sir John

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Doughty, Charles

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Speir, Sir Rupert

  Drayson G. B.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Stainton, Keith

  Eden, Sir John

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Stanley, Hn. Richard

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Stodart, J. A.

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Emery, Peter

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Longbottom, Charles

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Farr, John

  Longden, Gilbert

  Talbot, John E.

  Fell, Anthony

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Sir John (S'pton)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Teeling, Sir William

  Forrest, George

  MacIean, Sir Fitzroy

  Temple, John M.

  Foster, Sir John

  MacIeod, Rt. Hn. Iain

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Conway)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

  Maginnis, John E.

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Gammans, Lady

  Maitland, Sir John

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter

  Gardner, Edward

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan

  Marten, Neil

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Mathew, Robert

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Maude, Angus

  Vaughan-Morgan Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Mawby, Ray

  Walder, David (High Peak)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Gower, Raymond

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Wall, Patrick

  Grant, Anthony

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Walters, Dennis

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Gresham-Cooke, R.

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Grieve, Percy

  Mitchell, David

  Webster, David

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Monro, Hector

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick)

  More, Jasper

  Whitelaw, William

  Gurden, Harold

  Morgan, W. G.

  Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Murton, Oscar

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Fermanagh)

  Neave, Airey

  Wise, A. R.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Maccles'd)

  Nugent, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Wylie, N. R.

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  Younger, Hn. George

  Hawkins, Paul

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Hay, John

  Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Mr. McLaren and Mr. McArthur.

  Page, R. Graham (Crosby)

  Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House deplores the irresponsibility of the former administration leading to the
  1030
  serious situation which confronted Her Majesty's Government, and pledges its support for remedial measures to strengthen the country's economy and security and provide rising standards for the British people.

  IMPORT DUTIES
  10.27 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Edward Redhead): I beg to move,
  That the Import Duties (General) (No. 10) Order 1964 (S.I., 1964, No. 1986), dated 15th December, 1964, a copy of which was laid before this House on 21st December, be approved.
  The House will wish to know that the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments has determined that the special attention of the House does not require to be drawn to the Order. Indeed, as far as I am aware, there is no real contention concerning this Order. It does three things. It consolidates as at 31st December, 1964, the Import Duties (General) (No. 3) Order, 1961, and the various Orders amending it. These Orders prescribe the rates of protective duty for all imports into this country and a consolidating Order is normal and necessary from time to time. Secondly, it reduces the rates of import duty on goods to which the E.F.T.A. Convention applies. This is the sixth time that reductions have been made in accordance with the agreed E.F.T.A. timetable.
  Thirdly, it incorporates in the United Kingdom tariff a number of amendments to the Brussels Nomenclature. The Order as a whole is subject to the affirmative rather than the negative Resolution procedure only because implementation of the Brussels Nomenclature amendments results in a number of minor increases in duty. I intend, therefore, to confine my remarks to the Nomenclature Amendments. The Brussels Nomenclature is an international system of tariff classification which is now used by over 70 countries. The United Kingdom, the European Economic Community and E.F.T.A. countries are among the 19 contracting parties to the Nomenclature Convention.
  We adopted this form of tariff on 1st January, 1959, and subsequently undertook to bring into force on 1st January, 1965, a series of amendments recommended by the Customs Co-operation Council, the organisation which supervises the operation of the Nomenclature. As a matter of convenience, to avoid unnecessary reprinting of the tariff, we and some other E.F.T.A. countries brought the amendments into force on 31st December,
  1032
  1964, the date on which the sixth E.F.T.A. duty reductions were due.
  The amendments are numerous and in many cases complex and I will not attempt to describe them in detail. In brief, they bring the Nomenclature up to date by taking into account technological developments in the production of certain goods. They also rectify some anomalies of classification and clarify the text of some of the 1,100 tariff headings in the Nomenclature and of some of the legal notes which govern classification as between those headings. Many of the amendments are textual changes but others transfer goods from one tariff heading to another.
  In many cases these transfers relate to goods of little or no trade significance. Where, however, goods of known trade importance have been reclassified under a tariff heading with a different rate of duty, subheadings have been opened to maintain the former rate. To take a simple example, a new subheading has been raised under heading 92.11, with a duty of 16 per cent. for recorders and reproducers for television. These were dutiable at 16 per cent. under heading 85·22, their previous classification, from which they were transferred to heading 92.11 which carried a rate of duty of 33⅓ per cent. In the absence of a new subheading, the rate would have been increased from 16 per cent. to 33⅓ per cent. Similarly, new subheadings have been raised to avoid a reduction in the rate of duty applicable to goods transferred from one heading to another.
  This Order should not, therefore, result in duty changes in items of real significance in trade terms. If, however, it should prove otherwise in any particular case, the Board of Trade will consider the need to raise further subheadings and will be open to receive representations on these matters.
  10.33 p.m.
  Mr. John Hall: The House will wish to thank the Minister of State for his clear explanation of the reason for this Order, and we fully understand the reason for it. I understand that this Order has not yet been considered by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments. Is there a reason for that?
  Mr. Redhead: I prefaced my remarks by saying that the House would wish to

  1033
  know that the Select Committee had determined that the special attention of the House does not require to be drawn to the Order.
  Mr. Hall: I apologise that I missed the hon. Gentleman's remarks.
  In a speech in the debate on the Address on 4th November I had occasion to refer to the rate of import duties on goods to which the E.F.T.A. Convention applies, when I pointed out that the effect of the 15 per cent. surcharge had been to eradicate practically all the benefits of the reduction in tariff rates that had been negotiated over months. Does this still apply? Has the 15 per cent. surcharge more than restored the tariffs for the E.F.T.A. countries to what they were before we began to negotiate these reductions, especially in the case of certain special steels which we import where up to last November the duty was even higher than it had been before we began to negotiate the reduction?
  Mr. Redhead: I have already answered the first point which the hon. Gentleman made. On the second, the position as regards the E.F.T.A. is not altered by the Order. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it remains the Government's intention to deal with the import surcharge on a different basis, and to treat that at the earliest possible moment.
  Mr. Hall: With respect, the Minister has not quite answered the point. Perhaps I did not make it clear. What I panted to know, and what I think the House wishes to know, is whether the duties now laid down in the Order before us for the E.F.T.A. countries are increased or decreased by the imposition of the 15 per cent. surcharge. There have been negotiations over the months gradually to reduce the E.F.T.A. tariffs, in accordance with the Convention to which we are signatories. Have those reductions been more than offset by the 15 per cent. surcharge, and are we back in a worse position in relation to the E.F.T.A. countries than we were when the surcharges were imposed?
  Mr. Redhead: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it would be impossible to give a general assessment or answer on that without a detailed examination. The reductions in the E.F.T.A. scales having occurred over a
  1034
  considerable range, it would be impossible at this stage to say what those new rates reflect in relation to the import surcharge.
  10.36 p.m.
  Mr. Graham Page: I congratulate the Minister and his Department on producing this consolidation Order. It was before the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments only today, and, as the Minister said, the Committee saw no reason to report anything to the House. I must say, however, that the Committee was extremely pleased that the Department had produced a consolidation Order of this kind. It is most useful for those who have to refer to them that these Orders should be consolidated frequently. As is shown on page 443, this one consolidates no fewer than 41 Orders, and to this extent it will be a most useful document of great benefit to those who have to refer to these matters.
  10.37 p.m.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: We all approve the tidying-up process which the Order represents. This is the kind of Departmental work which often goes unsung and unheralded, but it is extremely useful and much to be commended.
  I wish to draw attention to the clever or diplomatic evasion by the Minister of the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall). I suppose that it is not possible at this stage to say whether or not, in actual terms, the 15 per cent. surcharge is more than the reduction in the tariffs, but the House would do wrong not to recognise that, although we cannot, at this moment, ascertain precisely whether the surcharge has outweighed the benefit of the tariff reductions, the surcharge has interfered with the spirit of relations between the E.F.T.A. countries. At a time when we were moving along so well in the direction of having a closer understanding and better working with the E.F.T.A. countries, a time when, otherwise, this Order could have been a matter for congratulation of the Government on having taken the road which we all want them to take, it is a pity that so much has been spoiled by the atmosphere brought about by the surcharge.

  1035
  The Minister could not answer in actual terms whether or not one has been greater than the other, but, in passing the Order, we ought to recognise the damage which has been done and hope that it will not be long lasting.
  10.39 p.m.
  Sir Peter Roberts: The Minister will know that there has been some discussion about the importation of benzole and hydrocarbon oils and that the home-produced benzole has over the years, had a charge laid upon it which the Government recently decided to withdraw. In terms of item 27, referring to hydrocarbon oils and light oils, does this Order in any way affect the position of manufacturers of home-produced benzole who are suffering a considerable amount of loss in production and allowing the same amount to come in from outside, for which we have to pay dollars or sterling? I am not sure whether this is related to the question of the duty on benzole, and should be grateful to be informed.
  Mr. Redhead: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I am in a very similar difficulty to him in so far as this is a very complex matter involving so many different headings that, without notice. I should find it impossible to give an answer with assurance. If I may, I will write to him after making a further examination of the matter.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Import Duties (General) (No. 10 Order 1964 (S.I., 1964, No. 1986), dated 15th December, 1964, a copy which was laid before this House on 21st December, be approved.

  CONTROL OF OFFICE AND INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to impose further restrictions (with retrospective effect, in the case of land in the metropolitan region) on the development of land in so far as any such development may relate to office premises, and to provide, in relation to industrial development, for modifying the exemptions conferred in England and Wales by section 39 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1962 and in Scotland by section 19 of the Local Employment Act 1960, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any
  1036
  administrative expenses incurred by the Board of Trade in consequence of the provisions of the said Act of the present Session, including any increase attributable to the last-mentioned Act in the administrative expenses of the Board of Trade under any other enactment.
  Resolution agreed to.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend paragraph 20 of Schedule 3 to the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 to enable provision to be made for the payment of pensions to the widows or other dependants of teachers who die without having completed ten years' service, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State under that Act and of any increase attributable to that Act in the sums so payable under any other enactment.
  Resolution agreed to.

  IMMATURE WHISKY (EXPORT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lawson.]
  10.42 p.m.
  Mr. J. A. Stodart: I am certain that every hon. Member will agree on one point, that after the turbulence which rocked the House some few minutes ago it is most suitable that we should before we go to bed turn our attention to that miracle of beverages which can operate either as a sedative or as a stimulant depending on what mood one is in.
  During the last five years I have been a persistent questioner on the subject of exports of whisky which is immature. For the benefit of anyone who is not aware what immature whisky is, I ought to state that whisky, like rum and brandy, may not be sold in this country under three years old, and any whisky sold elsewhere under three years old is classified as immature. This restriction dates from the Immature Spirits Act, 1915, and if any hon. Member wishes to know what the effects of drinking immature whisky are, I recommend him to read the words of the Attorney-General in April, 1915, when he gave a somewhat horrific account

  1037
  of the effects on those who drink too much immature or young whisky.
  Despite objections to its sale here, which were, according to the 1915 Act, largely on health grounds, we seem to have no scruples about causing possible ill health to people abroad, and also causing harm—more than possible harm, I think—to the reputation of what is perhaps in its true form the most remarkable drink in the world. It is remarkable because of the incredible number of distinctive flavours with which Nature alone has endowed it. It is remarkable too, if I may say so, because of the way in which it is winning more and more favour all over the world. In many countries in Europe and in Africa today one is not, if I may use the phrase. "with it" unless one drinks whisky and soda.
  Mr. John Hall: And water.
  Mr. Stodart: We shall get into the realm of discussion about malt whisky and blended whisky if we get into argument about soda versus water.
  This general response to whisky in the rest of the world is, of course, quite wonderful for British exports. In 1963, a total of £85 million was earned by the export of Scotch whisky. Last year, it was £93 million and this year the total is expected, not over-optimistically, to be over £100 million.
  But I find it somewhat ironical that it is this outstanding success of a high-quality article which has been quoted by successive Ministers at the Board of Trade—and I pray that the Minister of State will not follow in their wake—as an argument against refusing to allow into the export markets immature whisky, which is not allowed into our own market, and which those who sell the genuine article have always maintained makes their task less easy, successful though the result has been, even if it does not do them actual harm.
  It is true that, in contrast to the quite astronomical figures I have quoted of the export of Scotch whisky, immature material amounts to a trivial quantity of about 1 million proof gallons in a year and that this brings in less than £1 million, representing about only 1 per cent. in value of the total sales overseas and about 3 per cent. in volume.
  1038
  When Ministers at the Board of Trade refer to the tremendous success of Scotch whisky despite the competition of immature whisky and say that, therefore, there is no need to clamp down upon immature exports, it is not unfair to retort that surely a trifling amount of £1 million worth—1 million proof gallons—is really not worth upsetting a thoroughly hardworking export industry with.
  It would be quite wrong if I did not refer to the exports of immature whisky that go to Sweden, because two-thirds of our exports of immature spirit go there. I believe that the figure last year was 618,000 proof gallons. It is bought by a Swedish Government monopoly, which blends and sells it under its own label and guarantees it to have been kept three years in Sweden before sale. One can have no complaint about this particular trade in view of the fact that the maturing in Sweden is guaranteed by the Swedish Government. All the same, it would be reasonable and right to say that it would be preferable to blend and mature that whisky in this country, because we can do it better here than it can be done elsewhere.
  Surely it would not be difficult to discriminate, if need be, between the export of this spirit to Sweden and that quantity which goes elsewhere. This need not require what was described to me by one Minister at the Board of Trade as an apparatus of controls. The export of whisky was banned, except under licence, for a period in the early part of the 1950s. Why do the Government even risk damaging a reputation and why do they go out of their way to irritate a dollar earner of £100 million for the sake of less than £1 million, or, excluding Sweden, very much less than £1 million?
  It may well be asked whether, if a ban were placed on the export of immature whisky, it would stop liquid being sold abroad under the name "whisky". That is a different aspect of the subject on which I shall not dwell long tonight. Combating false descriptions of this or any other commodity is the responsibility of, in this case, the Scotch Whisky Association, a responsibility fully accepted by the Association which spends a considerable sum of money in litigation in other countries every year. There is no doubt that if young whisky were banned from the export

  1039
  markets, that would help to stop the selling of "whisky" under a false label by drying up at the source what forms the main part of the contents of this so-called whisky.
  The great advantage about immature whisky for those who deal in it is that it can be bought in this country for less than £1 a gallon as against about 48s. a gallon for the genuine article. It may be that the Government have a soft spot for those who trade in immature whisky merely because they do not wish to interfere with the right of people to trade, but if this is the case they are misguided. I am convinced that most of the trade is done on the basis that the immature whisky is the genuine article.
  I have with me the photostat of a letter, which I shall be glad to give to the hon. Gentleman, from a firm with a London address which offers to sell to an agent in Germany barrels of young whisky at 14s. a gallon for a consignment of more than 150 barrels—there are 40 gallons in a barrel.
  The letter goes on to say that labels will be posted from this country to the German agent for putting on the bottles there. The photostat copy of the label which is offered in the letter and which is named "William the Conqueror" reads like this—and let it be remembered that this whisky has been offered as young whisky:
  "William the Conqueror Scotch Whisky. 100% Scotch Whiskies perfectly blended. Distilled, blended and aged in Scotland."
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I am interested in the hon. Member's problem, and it is a serious one. He said, however, that there was a softness on the part of the Government for these whisky sellers. Has this arisen simply within the last three months?
  Mr. Stodart: If the right hon. Gentleman had been here, he would have heard me say that I have been a persistent questioner on the subject for the last five years. I am not by any means attributing this to the recent change of Government.
  The reputation which Scotch whisky enjoys took years to create. It could be very much more quickly destroyed. What could easily be responsible for a
  1040
  decline in a long-term export asset which is based fundamentally upon a quality article is the continued export of an inferior immature product. I hope, therefore, that the Minister of State will express more than sympathy for the banning of this commodity.
  10.57 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Edward Redhead): The hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) and I might regard ourselves as enjoying a mutual nightcap on a subject of this character at this late hour. I have considerable sympathy—I mean this sincerely, notwithstanding the hon. Member's last remarks—with the purpose which, I believe, underlies his remarks tonight. I know that he is concerned to ensure that the exports of Scotch whisky are given every opportunity to continue to expand, as I acknowledge they have been doing significantly in recent years.
  The record of exports of Scotch is a fine one and I join the hon. Member in paying tribute to the enterprise and efficiency of this trade, which is one of our largest and most profitable forms of exchange earner. Scotch is now one of the most popular drinks in the world, as the hon. Member has rightly said—a compliment to the increasing discrimination of consumers in all countries. Indeed, the greater the reputation which the genuine article achieves, the less and less do I think there is any risk of immature spirits being mistaken for the genuine article.
  It is true that against this background of steady increase in the exports of the genuine Scotch whisky there have been spasmodic calls for the Government to intervene and prohibit exports of immature whisky. As the hon. Member has said, each year for the past four or five years he has asked the Government to produce figures of the extent of these exports. I appreciate that he is indeed a persistent advocate of banning the export of the immature spirit. It is true that during this period trade in the immature spirit has increased. The hon. Member has quoted the statistics which my Department has provided and these indicate that the increase has been from 360,000 proof gallons in 1959 to an annual rate of about 1 million proof gallons in 1964.

  1041
  The hon. Member has, in fairness, acknowledged that this does not tell the whole story, because these totals include a high proportion, varying between 65 and 85 per cent., which is exported to Sweden to be matured locally. This trade is on all-fours with that of mature whisky, differing from it only in the local practices of our Swedish customers, and, as I understand the hon. Gentleman, he does not regard this as an aspect of substantial complaint. Indeed, he goes so far as to suggest that if his main contention were admitted, it would be easily possible to differentiate and to make an exception in the case of exports of this commodity to Sweden.
  But if the figures of exports of mature whisky to Sweden are excluded from the totals which have been quoted, I think it will be seen—and we ought to appreciate this fact—that we are talking about quantities of immature spirit which, as percentages of mature exports, are very small indeed, and even in their absolute are hardly significant. In 1964 exports of immature whisky to destinations other than Sweden amounted to only 179,000 proof gallons, or about 0·5 per cent. of mature exports in the same period.
  If it is true that substantial quantities of immature spirit are being passed off abroad as whisky, then quite clearly the ingredients must come from countries other than the United Kingdom, and if there are sources of supply outside the United Kingdom, banning exports of immature whisky from this country would not of itself relieve the apprehensions which the hon. Gentleman has of such immature whisky, or admixtures of it, being passed off in other countries as the genuine article.
  The concern felt in this matter has, I think, largely been directed to the position in France and Western Germany, and it is upon the latter than the hon. Gentleman has relied for examples tonight. In most of our other principal markets there are satisfactory methods of control imposed by the countries concerned, mainly for their own domestic reasons. In these countries Scotch whisky can be imported only if it has been matured for more than three years, and Her Majesty's Customs and Excise facilitate exports of whisky to those markets
  1042
  by providing, as necessary, certificates of age and origin at the request of any exporter.
  The countries which have such regulations include the United States of America—our most important export market—most of the Commonwealth countries, and a number of Latin American and West European countries such as Switzerland and Italy. The Government consider that this is generally the most satisfactory way to control the trade in immature spirits and to prevent, or limit, the possibilities of these immature spirits being passed off as genuine Scotch whisky in other countries, and every opportunity is taken to make this point to those countries which have not so far adopted legislation on these lines.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the alleged harm to health from drinking immature spirits. I gather that that is sometimes disputed. I do not think that I need go into an argument about that, even if I were competent to advance one, for I think he rests most substantially on the harm which he feels is done to the reputation of genuine Scotch by crude imitations sold abroad at cut prices to undiscerning customers.
  I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern. I need hardly say that that sort of abuse is utterly objectionable, and I share the feelings that he expressed in that regard. Hon. Members will have seen the counterfeit products which can be bought abroad; bottles which are labelled with tartan designs and aristocratic titles, careful, of course, to avoid the word "Scotch", to suggest that the contents of the bottle are just that.
  The remedy against these practices, however, lies in the courts, like those of the particular instances which the hon. Gentleman quoted tonight, though I acknowledge that it is often difficult to institute successful proceedings in the courts of other countries where such cases of abuse come to light. However, my Department's overseas commercial officers give every assistance to the British exporter in prosecuting actions against fraudulent and misleading appellations.
  Export control—and this I must emphasise—would do nothing to prevent these abuses. Moreover, for some years now we have been participating in the work of the Council of Europe Com-

  1043
  mittee on Exports in connection with the production and marketing of vine products and spirits, with the aim of securing, among other things, international protection for the descriptions "Scotch Whisky" and "Whisky". For a number of reasons progress in the Committee is very slow, and I cannot predict the final outcome.
  The question of export control would not materially affect the position. The basic trouble lies not in any exports of immature spirit from this country, which, as I have pointed out, are relatively small, but in the immature spirits produced abroad, which are either misleadingly described as whisky or are blended and mixed with other—often genuine—Scotch spirits to produce an inferior brand. Placing a degree of control upon British exports of this immature whisky would not, therefore, make any real contribution to the solution of the problem to which the hon. Member has referred.
  I know that it is sometimes suggested—as the hon. Member has suggested tonight—that it is illogical for the Government to prevent the sale of immature whisky in the United Kingdom but to allow its export. At first sight this is a plausible-sounding argument, but with respect I suggest that it does not stand up to examination. What is prevented in this way—the control is affected by the Customs—is the release for consumption of whisky that has not been matured for at least three years. Of course, only whisky which has been distilled in Scotland and then matured for at least three years may be described as Scotch whisky. Our domestic regulations do not, however, prevent the sale of immature spirit altogether. Under Customs control it is released for compounding and mixing. It is a respectable raw material, regularly bought and sold. After compounding or mixing so as to produce gin, vodka or liqueurs it may be sold for consumption as such.
  It is a general rule that we do not seek to subject goods that are exported to the regulations which apply to those goods when sold on the home market. Each country has its own domestic regulations, and exporters have to comply with these and not with the domestic requirements
  1044
  in their own countries. I agree that in this instance it is particularly in our interest to try to bring other countries into line with our own practice. This we have been seeking to do through the Council of Europe and in other ways to which I have referred. But the banning of the export of immature whisky in itself would achieve little and, indeed, might deprive us of quite valuable exports, even though the hon. Member has sought to minimise the significance they represent.
  Certainly it would deprive us—unless there was a discriminatory form of control, which he suggests—of the exports of immature spirits to Sweden. It should not be assumed, however, that exports of immature whisky are necessarily used for other than respectable purposes. Export licensing is a mechanism which should be—and, I submit, is—used sparingly. Of course, we control the exports of arms and military equipment and, in the case of some destinations, also of strategic goods, but outside this it is the well-recognised view that there is only a handful of controls for strictly limited purposes—for example, for humanitarian purposes, such as safeguarding the welfare of horses and live cattle exported from this country, for safeguarding national treasures, for the purpose of safeguarding supplies of essential raw materials such as ferrous and non-ferrous scrap, and other similar purposes.
  The hon. Member has made reference to the fact that immature whisky exports were banned for a period in the 1950s. But it was for entirely different reasons from those which he urges in this instance. In the Government's view it would not be proper to use their wide emergency powers, which were originally taken for defence purposes, to stop exports except for reasons that were explicitly in the national interest and which unquestionably commanded widespread support. In our view there must be a general bias against any measure which stops exports. The onus of proving a case to the contrary must lie with those who propose it. In this instance my impression is that there is by no means unanimity in the trade. It is the Government's view, therefore, that most of the trade in immature whisky is useful, and that banning it would not stop the abuses

  1045
  which we all deplore. We rely rather on the alternative method of approach which I have indicated, for we feel that the instrument of export control would be inappropriate and ineffective in this instance.
  Mr. Gordon Campbell: Before the Minister sits down, may I put one point to him? He has dealt with simulated Scotch whisky, but the point which my hon. Friend was putting, and which he explained very well, was confined to exports of immature whisky. The Minister's argument is that the amounts exported are insignificant. If in future exports of immature whisky were to increase to countries where there was not the legislation which he has mentioned as guaranteeing maturity, and if it then looked as if exports were suffering as a whole because of damage to the reputation of this very important export, Scotch whisky, would he and his Depart-
  1046
  ment look at the matter seriously to see if something ought to be done?
  Mr. Redhead: That is a hypothetical question. I can only answer it in these terms—it would require, as I indicated before, a much more substantial case than we feel has so far been advanced to persuade us to take a different course than that which we feel is appropriate in this case.
  Mr. John Hall: Would the Minister agree that the legislation originally introduced to prohibit the sale of immature whisky in this country consumed as whisky—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY- SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twelve minutes past Eleven o'clock.

HOUSING
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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Coventry
The Lord Glentanar—Took the Oath.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon—Took the Oath.

POST OFFICE CHARGES AND EFFICIENCY
2.35 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Post Office intends to meet rising costs by increasing its efficiency or by raising its charges.]
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Postmaster General is not yet in a position to make a statement.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I thank the Minister for that Answer and ask him whether he has considered this: what would happen if Her Majesty's Government practised what they preached?
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, in every respect up to the moment I think Her Majesty's Government are practising what they preach.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether they are doing so on the subjects of electricity in England and gas in Scotland?
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord's attention has been drawn to British Rail, where fares were raised yesterday and, if anything, efficiency reduced?
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, it is part of my present duty to answer for the Post Office, but not for British Rail.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords is the Minister not aware that much of the increases in price of electricity and gas are due to the late Conservative Government's financial provision for nationalised industries?
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, I agree.

ARRESTS OF BRITONS IN TANZANIA
2.37 p.m.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many British subjects have been placed under some form of arrest in Tanzania during the past nine months; what steps have been taken in each case by the British High Commission to obtain their release, and what satisfaction has been obtained in each case.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD TAYLOR): My Lords, my right honourable friend and his predecessor have received reports of the arrests of fifteen British citizens in Tanzania during the past nine months. Five were brought before the courts and convicted. The rest were released without being charged. In all appropriate cases the British High Commissioner has immediately approached the Tan-zanian authorities to seek an explanation of the arrests and to press for the release of the persons detained. Of the ten persons arrested but not charged, six were released following the High Commissioner's intervention, though two of these were subsequently deported or asked to leave the country. One other, who was also expelled, was detained for only a few hours and had already been released when the High Commissioner instituted his inquiries. In the remaining cases, the persons concerned did not seek the High Commissioner's assistance and he came to hear of the arrests only much later from other sources.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord

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for his Answer. I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the fact that Tanzania is not the only African member of the British Commonwealth where such things are happening, they will make it clear that (in words which were used on an historic occasion many years ago) they are "not amused"?
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I do not think this is a subject for amusement. I think Tanzania is learning the difficult job of self-government; and there is evidence that it is steadily improving.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Tanzania is learning under Chinese instructors?
LORD TAYLOR: No, my Lords, I was not so aware.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether these newly-independent East African countries are not naturally very sensitive to all forms of criticism from visiting journalists or from other sources; and, while we deplore any attack on the freedom of the Press, is it not most important for visiting journalists or other visitors or European residents to be most careful in all matters in regard to the feelings of these newly-independent countries? May I ask a second question? Would it not be possible to consider suggesting to the Governments of these countries that they might consider adopting conditions for deportation such as are laid down in the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, in this country? Indeed, one might perhaps go further and consider suggesting to all Commonwealth countries that they might get together on a plan for adopting similar conditions for deportation between member States of the Commonwealth?
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, for his helpful questions. With regard to the first, I think he is quite correct. There is no doubt that these countries are very sensitive to articles which appear in the Press, and that they do not realise that in Britain we do not take quite so much notice of the Press as they think we do. With regard to the second question, I will certainly investigate and see if that can be done.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, if in fact it turns out to be true (which I understand it is, from what the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, said) that Tanzania is under the tutelage of the Chinese, may I ask the noble Lord what steps the Government propose to take to counteract the effect of this tutelage?
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am not in a position to say whether the allegation of the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, is correct or not; but I think the best thing we can possibly do is to demonstrate the value of British democracy to these countries. I must say that when I was in Jamaica at a meeting of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association the Tanzanian representatives played a leading and good part.

PREVENTIVE DETENTION
2.43 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they propose to abolish preventive detention and what form of imprisonment or sentence they intend to put in its place.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM): My Lords, legislation is, of course, required to abolish preventive detention, but there is unlikely to be time for it in the present Session. As to what should take its place, my right honourable friend has as yet reached no conclusion. We want to take a wide and constructive view of the problem of persistent offenders. They are not all of one kind, and we do not believe that our only approach should be to lock them away for long periods. We are anxious to ensure, on the one hand, that the public is properly protected from those offenders from whom it really needs protection and, on the other hand, that offenders are not detained unnecessarily for excessively long periods.
The solution depends partly upon new legislation, which will not necessarily

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follow the lines proposed by the noble Lord in answer to a Question on July 23 last, and partly upon the development within the prison system of better means of assessing the character and needs of particular prisoners and relating them to a wider and more effective range of training facilities and prison industries. The further development of the hostel system and of after-care, to which much effort is being devoted, are also important factors.
My right honourable friend will make a statement about his proposals as soon as he is ready to do so, but I cannot at the moment say when this will be.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, is the noble Lord really telling us, after all the things he said repeatedly in the last Parliament, and after all the things the noble Earl the Leader of the House repeatedly said in the last Parliament, and two years after the Advisory Council have published their recommendations, that Her Majesty's Government have still not made up their minds on this question?
LORD STONHAM: No, my Lords. What I am saying is that on May 1, 1961, after persistent pressure from the Opposition, the noble Lord's Government appointed a sub-committee to consider preventive detention and announced their decision to abolish preventive detention on July 23, 1964—that was some 1,200 days afterwards. I do not complain about the fact that after 100 days, the noble Lord complains that we have taken no action. In fact, I regard that as a friendly assessment by the noble Lord—perhaps over-generous—of the relative efficiency of the two Governments.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, was this House not repeatedly told by the noble Earl the Leader of the House, and by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that the Party opposite had made up their minds about this matter and that we had not done so? May I ask this further question? The noble Lord said that there would be no Parliamentary time this Session. What has Parliamentary time got to do with it, when the Government have not made up their minds about what to put into a Bill?
LORD STONHAM: No, my Lords, the noble Lord is wrong on two counts. First
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of all, the Government have made up their minds to abolish preventive detention. There is no question whatsoever about that. The point on which we have not wholly made up our minds is what to put in its place. What my first Answer was intended to convey was that we have not necessarily accepted what the previous Government had said they would put in its place, as announced in the noble Lord's Answer of July 23. If we carried out the previous Government's intention, it would mean that a man of 25 who for a third time stole a bottle of milk could be sent to prison for ten years. That is the kind of thing we are reviewing. It seems wholly unlikely, therefore, that we shall accept such a provision. We will announce our final intention in this matter, together with other matters which are needing urgent consideration, as soon as we are ready to do so.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My lords, while recognising that preventive detention was introduced by the last Labour Government and that the present Government are firm in their decision that it was wrong to introduce it and that it should go, are we to take it from what the noble Lord has said that we shall not have any statement as to what is to take its place, and as to legislation to put something in its place, until after this Session has ended, whenever that may be?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I would say, in answer to the noble and learned Viscount, that there will be a statement as to what will take its place, but I think it unlikely that we shall be able to find time for a comprehensive measure, including the abolition of preventive detention, during this current Session.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, should I be wrong in thinking that the noble Earl the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, think, with me, that this further delay is really quite outrageous?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I cannot answer for my noble friend the Leader of the House; but, for myself, I wish to see the abolition of preventive detention as much as any noble Lord in this House, but I also do not wish to

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see, as apparently the noble Lord would, something put in its place which would be even worse.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, are the Government being dynamic?

PERFORMING ANIMALS BILL [H.L.]
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Performing Animals (Regulation) Act 1925, and for purposes connected therewith. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la.—(Lord Somers.)
On Question, Bill read la, and to be printed.

THE LATE SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL: MESSAGES OF CONDOLENCE
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I have to inform your Lordships that I have received, on behalf of the House, Messages expressing respect for the late Sir Winston Churchill and sympathy in the loss which the nation has suffered. I should like to express our gratitude for these Messages, and I have arranged for suitable replies to be sent to them. In order that the terms of these Messages should be available to your Lordships, I am arranging for them to be printed in the Official Report.
The Messages were as follows:
"To the Lord Chancellor, House of Lords, Palace of Westminster.
The Netherlands people and States General mourn the death of the man to whose un-flinchable determination and indomitable courage we owe our survival as a free nation. Sir Winston Churchill was a great Parliamentarian, a great war leader and a great statesman. It is perhaps only in England that there exists the constitutional framework required for such a unique combination of greatness to fully reveal itself.
We rejoiced on the 9th of May, 1946, to have this illustrious Parliamentarian address both our Chambers sitting together in the Knights' Hall.
With deep sorrow we now join his countrymen standing at his bier, and pay our final tribute to him, the memory of whose greatness will be enshrined in our hearts for ever.
Jonkman, President of the First Chamber of the States General.
Van Thiel, President of the Second Chamber of the States General."
"KOREAN EMBASSY,
36 Cadogan Square,
London, S.W.1.
25 January, 1965
My Lord,
I have the honour to enclose the following cable message addressed to you and to the whole House of Lords from the Speaker of the National Assembly of the Republic of Korea:
'We are overwhelmed with astonishment and sorrow at the sad news of the passing away of the late Sir Winston S. Churchill, the great hero of the century whom we hold in our highest respect.
It is a great sorrow not only to the British Commonwealth but also to the whole world and to the Republic of Korea to lose the great Statesman of the century who has made an unprecedented contribution towards peace and freedom for the whole of mankind.
On behalf of the Korean people, the National Assembly of the Republic of Korea wishes to express deepest condolences to the House of Lords. In this hour of sorrow, we pray for the late Sir Winston's eternal sweet repose.
Hyo Sang Lee, Speaker of the National Assembly, Republic of Korea.'
Please accept, my Lord, the assurances of my highest consideration.
(General) Honkon Lee,
Ambassador.
The Rt. Hon. Lord Gardiner,
House of Lords,
Westminster."
From the President of the Belgian Senate. [Translation.]
"The Lord Chancellor, Speaker of the House of Lords, London.
The death of Sir Winston Churchill has profoundly moved the Belgian Senate, which remembers with undying gratitude the outstanding part played by that illustrious statesman, master of policy and poet of action, during the terrible years of war, in achieving the victory of the peoples who were threatened with servitude and in furthering the liberation of my own country.
I pay tribute also to the generosity of Sir Winston, and to the courageous initiatives which since the end of the war he has constantly undertaken for the sake of the union of the peoples of Europe. We shall all cherish the memory of the indomitable pilot who knew how to ride the storm, who ever enjoyed the honour and respect of the British Parliament and was the very image of devotion to democratic institutions.
I offer to the House of Lords my most sincere condolences, together with those of the whole Senate.
Paul Struye,
President of the Senate."

LONDON GOVERNMENT: THE CHILDREN'S SERVICE
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that at a suitable moment after 3.30 my noble friend Lord Mitchison will be making a Statement on the Children's Service in Greater London.
AIRPORTS AUTHORITY BILL
Brought from the Commons on Tuesday last, and printed pursuant to Standing Order No. 44A. Bill read 1a.

DOGS BILL [H.L.]
2.51 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Your Lordships have no doubt read the Bill and know what its purpose is. I have received a great number of letters approving of the Bill and, as might be expected, a few in the contrary sense. Let me make it clear, first of all, to remove any such illusion, that this Bill is not motivated by any dislike of dogs; quite the contrary. So far as I am concerned, I am very fond of dogs, and I hope that they like me. When I was a small child living in the Canadian prairie far away from any other habitation my constant companion and guardian was a dog, and I have not forgotten that. This Bill is directed to what I hope is a small minority of dog owners who do not control their dogs, but allow them to become nuisances to the general public.
I am sure all your Lordships are quite familiar with the fact that in cities such as this, one finds day after day the pavements defiled by excrement of dogs which are allowed by the owners to excrete on the pavement. This is not only offensive and incompatible with the dignity of civilised life, but also insanitary and dangerous. I have received complaints about this from many parts of England, Wales and Scotland. Only a short time ago, when I went out of my front door one evening at six o'clock, I found the matron of a day nursery which is situated just beside my house busy washing down the steps with a bucket and a mop. A
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dog had got in and had fouled the entrance to the day nursery, and she was busy cleaning it up to prepare for the children who were coming in the morning. This is a matter which particularly affects housewives, from many of whom I have received complaints of a similar nature. One unfortunate lady, for example, told me about how her small child fell on the pavement and had her clothing defiled, some of it so badly that it had to be destroyed. I do not think I need emphasise this, because I feel that it is within your Lordships' knowledge.
Many of your Lordships no doubt also know that by-laws are made by a number of local authorities which make it an offence to let a dog on a lead foul the footpath. These by-laws, in my experience, are not obeyed. In many cases they are not advertised—the citizens do not know of their existence; and, in any case, they are not enforced. If they were enforced, and if proceedings were taken, it would no doubt be reported in the local Press and might lead to some improvement. In addition, the penalty is very small. Therefore, the first purpose of the Bill is to make it part of the general law of this country, and not a matter of local by-laws, that it is an offence to permit a dog to foul the pavement; and the second purpose is to raise the penalties to a level which is more appropriate to the economic circumstances of this country as they now are, because the fines which the by-laws generally impose represent a quite negligible amount.
The next question which required consideration was to what area of the country any legislation of this kind should apply. I have proposed in this Bill that it should apply to what one may, legally speaking, describe as an urban area; and for that purpose I have borrowed, with some modification, a definition which is contained in the Road Traffic Acts, and have defined it as a place where there is street lighting. It is obvious that one cannot control it in terms of local authority areas, because many urban districts contain considerable areas to which it is not necessary to apply any provision of this kind.
The next point to which I want to direct attention is the question of enforcement. As I have said, at the present moment the by-laws in most places are not enforced. So far as I am aware,

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the police pay no attention to them whatsoever; and in many cases the local authorities who make them also do not seem to bother. I have therefore proposed that enforcement should be in the hands of either the police or the local authority, in the hope that at any rate one or other of them will see that something is done about this grievance. Secondly, the by-laws which are made refer to dogs which are on a lead. They are, therefore, very easily evaded by the owners letting their dogs run free without any lead; and day after day I see dogs let out in the morning for this purpose without any attempt to control them. Therefore, I have proposed that where dogs are found straying—by which I mean, out of control of their owners—the police or the local authority shall have the power to take and detain them; and if the owner then reclaims his dog, he should pay for the expenses which have been incurred in the detention.
Some of your Lordships will remember that we had a debate some time ago, which was initiated by my noble friend Lord Ailwyn, with regard to dogs, and, in particular, to accidents in the streets caused by dogs This is another reason why it is desirable that dogs which are found straying in the streets should be taken and detained. I noticed recently that in Birmingham last year 1,640 dogs were involved in accidents in the streets. A considerable number of the dogs themselves were killed in these accidents, and in a much smaller proportion of cases there were also people injured. As traffic in the streets becomes denser and denser, the danger of dogs, untrained and uncontrolled, being allowed to roam in the streets becomes all the greater.
My Lords, I should mention that I have had a letter from the Association of District Councils in Scotland approving of this measure, desiring (which the Bill does not do at the present moment) that the powers thereby conferred should be extended to district councils as well as to other local authorities. The National Dog Owners' Association, with the work of which I dare say some of your Lordships are familiar, have also intimated that they approve of this in principle but they would desire, if the Bill obtained a Second Reading, that some modification should be made: in particular, that, if
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it is possible, an owner should be notified that his dog is detained; that the period within which it should be claimed should be extended to three weeks instead of two weeks; that dogs should be destroyed only if a suitable home cannot be found for them, and that they should in any case, of course, not be destroyed with any cruelty. That, I think, would always be the case. But so far as I am concerned, if amendments of that kind commended themselves to your Lordships I should be very happy to accept them.
Let me repeat that this is not a Bill which is intended to discourage people from having dogs; it is merely a Bill which is designed to encourage them to handle and to train their dogs properly—a thing which is perfectly easy. After all, dogs are domestic animals, and have been so for many thousands of years. They are affectionate and amenable to discipline and, therefore, no hardship is imposed upon anybody who likes to take the trouble to control his dog. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Douglas of Barloch.)
3.4 p.m
LORD SILKINmoved, as an Amendment, to leave out "now" and after "2a" to insert "this day six months". The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be read this day six months, which to put it in plain language, means that I am inviting the House to reject the Bill. I do not deny that there is a certain amount of fouling of pavements, but I think my noble friend has made far too much of it. I believe that he is grossly exaggerating both the nuisance and the ill-health (about which he did not elaborate) caused.
We are a nation of dog lovers—at least we pride ourselves on being so. There are over 2 million dogs licensed in this country although, of course, there are considerably more dogs if we count also those that are not yet of an age requiring them to be licensed. Of those dogs, something like, I should guess, 1½ million inhabit towns and places to which this Bill would apply. A large number of these dogs are great friends of their owners and are pets. In many cases they are companions. For many old people, dogs provide the only companionship they have, and anything we did that affected

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this relationship, and made it harder for old folk, blind people, and others who keep dogs for companionship and health, would be rendering a great disservice to a considerable section of the population. It is because I believe that this Bill would be rendering such a disservice that I am strongly opposed to it.
The vast majority of dogs, I think, are orderly, well-behaved and do not foul pavements. But dogs are uncontrollable, especially male dogs who have a predilection for lamp-posts; and I imagine that, under the terms of the Bill, any action as against a lamp-post would be regarded as an offence. However well-trained a dog may be, there are occasions when it really is uncontrollable; and to make such action an offence punishable by law is going much too far. And, frankly, I believe that we have far more important things to do at the present time.
I have referred to old people. There are also, of course, blind people who rely on dogs to take them about. There is no guarantee that in no circumstances will a blind man's dog foul a pavement, or even an open space. Sometimes dogs are exercised by children. If a child is in charge of a dog which happens to foul a pavement, is it the intention that either the child or the owner of the dog should be punished? Then there are police dogs. Even they sometimes nod; and one cannot guarantee that, however well trained a police dog may be, it will never offend against this Bill, if it is made law. I am told that there are sheep dogs which are taken to market. Sometimes they foul the market. What about them?
We really do not want to multiply offences of this kind, and to provide for a penalty of £20 for each offence after the first is monstrous. It indicates, if I may respectfully say so to my noble friend, the kind of approach that he has to this question. It is, after all, I would say—and my noble friend will understand it—de minimis. It is not a thing with which we should trouble the Legislature. The more effective thing would be to induce local authorities to clean their streets daily. That would solve the whole problem. I do not thing I need elaborate the hardships.
Now let us look at the question of enforcement. At the moment, there are a number of local authorities who have by-
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laws which, as my noble friend said, are not being enforced. They are supposed to be enforced by local inspectors. I imagine that they are not being enforced because the local inspectors have far more important things to do; and if you want the by-laws enforced you must appoint more local inspectors. No local authority is either willing or able to get more local inspectors. They are very short. Every local authority could do with more local inspectors to enforce these by-laws. How it came about that local authorities asked for these by-laws I do not know, but it may be a reflection (I say this with great respect to my noble friend Lord Merthyr) of the fact that Private Bills are not sufficiently scrutinised. At any rate, we know that many of these things go through in Private Bills which perhaps closer investigation reveals ought not to. I admit that there are a number of local by-laws, but, as my noble friend says, they are not being enforced.
My Lords, if this Bill became general law it would be for the police to enforce it. Can noble Lords imagine the police being diverted from their efforts to deal with crime, or with the increasing number of motor offences, to go chasing dogs to see if they are fouling pavements or open spaces? Do your Lordships think that that would be a legitimate use of the police? Admitting that there is some nuisance in a limited number of cases, do your Lordships think that the public would be prepared for our police, who, in any case, I am afraid, are able to detect something like only 50 per cent. of the crimes that are committed in this country, to be diverted away from detecting that crime to the pursuit of dogs which happen to be using lamp-posts or are otherwise fouling the pavements? It seems to me fantastic that anyone could consider such a thing.
I cannot think that your Lordships will want to pass this Bill. If it is given a Second Reading, I cannot imagine that it will go through Committee, and I hope that we shall reject this Bill this afternoon without any further question. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
To leave out ("now") and, after ("2a"), insert ("this day six months")—(Lord Silkin.)
3.12 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the speeches of the two noble Lords who preceded me,

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and I am ready to say at once, of course, that the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, has introduced this Bill very persuasively and made it perfectly clear that the Bill is not aimed against dogs so much as against their owners. On the other hand, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, put the matter into fair perspective and demonstrated the relative importance, or perhaps I may say unimportance, of this Bill.
When I heard about this Bill I was very intrigued. This question of dogs in London and in towns in general is a very intriguing problem, and I was particularly intrigued to discover how the noble Lord proposed to set about preventing dogs from doing their private business exactly where and when they wanted to. Having read the Bill, and after listening to the speech of the noble Lord, I find that one of his main methods for doing this is to increase the penalty. In other words, he wishes to introduce a larger deterrent than already exists under local by-laws. I would say that anybody on being fined once for allowing his dog to foul a pavement or public place adjacent to a footway would be sufficiently annoyed by losing £5 in that way to take every reasonable step to prevent it from happening again. I do not believe that an increased fine up to £20 would really have any significant effect on whether or not this offence was committed a second time; and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that the sum of £20 is really altogether too large for such a trivial offence, especially when we come to consider that the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, said that this Bill is aimed against only a small minority of dog owners. It does seem rather as though he is bringing a sledge-hammer to crack a nut.
I also approach this problem from the point of view of the dog. I am a dog owner and a dog lover. I have two small dogs in my house at this moment. Neither of them is actually mine; they belong to my family; but for a long period I had a most beloved and wonderful boxer of which I thought highly enough to bring it with me all the way from Southern Rhodesia when I returned to this country some years ago. That dog brought up my four small children in my household, guarding them in their prams, watching
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them in the nursery and playing with them, and she was really the most efficient nursery-maid I ever had.
I came to understand the dog mentality, I think, very well; so much so that, soon after my marriage, my two small stepchildren whom I inherited, noting that I was not very loquacious in the home—a fact which may surprise some of your Lordships who have heard me speak in this Chambe r—engaged in the following conversation: "Daddy," said one, "does not speak very much, does he?" "Oh," said the other, "but you should hear how often he talks to his dog." So I do think that I have an understanding of the dog mentality.
My Lords, I would turn to the real defect of this Bill, which is its effect upon the responsibility and discretion of the local authorities in this matter. The noble Lord would make this Bill a national obligation upon all local authorities. At the moment they have permissive powers, and I believe that nearly all (perhaps all those who have control over urban areas) do have a bylaw to prevent, in so far as possible, this nuisance. But it seems to me that if we were to pass this Bill that discretion, even in urban areas, would be very severely limited, because at the moment urban authorities do allow certain public open spaces to be used for dogs running free. This is so in my area, where a part of Holland Park is allowed for the free running of dogs, though on the greater part of it dogs must be kept on a lead. Is it really intended that local authorities should not be allowed to exercise that sort of discretion? Because, surely, if people are going to have dogs in London at all, they must have some free range; and it seems to me that the Bill would stop this.
Then, local authorities differ in their requirements and in their environments. In the county district areas, where there are small market towns and villages, which are paved and would come under this Bill (because in these days, of course, they also have modern street lighting), there is no nuisance at all because there is so much countryside and pavements are not very much affected. Even if they are it hardly constitutes a nuisance, and it seems rather unreasonable that the local authorities should have to have legislation of this nature imposed upon them, willy-nilly.

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My Lords, when it comes to the question of enforcement, which both noble Lords mentioned, the difficulty of enforcement, whether by the local authority, a public authority or the police, is evident. I can see the possibility of most unneighbourly rows going on. If people are going to be caught for this sort of thing, even if it is not on purpose—because it is not they who are doing it: it is their dog—and you get people who do not like dogs or their neighbours, there are going to be all sorts of tales going round and there will be complicated prosecutions. I do not think the Bill is very helpful from that point of view.
Then there is the-question of justice. I inquired from my local borough council, at Kensington, who have had a by-law of this nature on their books since 1939, and I am told that it has a very important proviso which I am quite sure should be in this Bill, if it is given a Second Reading. The by-law, with the proviso, is as follows:
"No person being in charge of a dog shall allow the dog to foul the footway of any street or public place by depositing its excrement thereon:
"Provided that a person shall not be liable to be convicted of an offence against this by-law if he satisfies the court that the fouling of the footway by the dog was not due to culpable neglect or default on his part."
I would ask noble Lords to consider whether some such proviso is not necessary, and how difficult it is to prove whether or not there: has been culpable neglect.
If a dog is off the lead it might be held to be culpable neglect. But, even when the dog is on the lead, does the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, really maintain that you can prevent a dog which is following you along the pavement from lifting its leg quickly against a lamp-post or a tree? And in my street we have both, very conveniently planted, growing out of the pavement with a nice little circle of earth around the base. And of course canine intelligence tells the dog that it has been put there for its own particular purpose. When the noble Lord talks about its habit being incompatible with the dignity of civilised life, surely all he means is incompatible with the dignity of lamp-posts. One might consider that the dog believes that this lamp-
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post is put there conveniently for its own purpose; and it might even be expressing an aesthetic opinion upon the lamp-post very much in accord with the views, for example, of my noble friend Lord Bossom—because these lamp-posts are not very beautiful things.
How can you get the dog to walk in the road or the gutter? After all, dogs, being intelligent beings, do not like to walk in the road or gutter any more than human beings do, because they do not want to be run over by a bus, or even by the butcher's boy's bicycle. Therefore, I would say that, even when the dog is on the lead, it is virtually impossible, with normal care, to prevent a dog from committing a nuisance on the pavement. Moreover, if it is going to be a larger rather than a smaller nuisance, and the dog is on the lead, the most desperate tug-of-war takes place. You can do your best, but you cannot effectively control a dog's natural habits, and therefore I believe that this Bill will not be effective in what it sets out to do.
It is not a necessary Bill, because the local authorities already have these powers, and even if their discretion is interfered with by this Bill on a national level, I do not believe that either they or the police would be able to carry out its purpose any better than it is carried out to-day. I sympathise with the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, but I think Lord Silkin is probably right in suggesting that the answer is the cleaning of the streets more often, especially in those areas where this sort of nuisance occurs. I have to traverse the pavement to get to public transport every day by this main entrance into the park, and it is at times rather dirty and unpleasant. It seems to me that the local authorities might think of cleaning these particular stretches of pavement more often than they do, and I think that that would be the best way out of this problem. Of course this is a Private Member's Bill; there is no Whip of any sort on it. But I do express the view, I am given to understand, of my colleagues on this particular Bill; and I am naturally expressing my own personal and private view about it, too. I shall not vote for the Second Reading of this Bill, which I believe to be an unnecessary Bill and one that would not prove to be effective.
3.25 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, with one thing which the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, said I am in total agreement; that is that dogs in urban areas should not be allowed to run free outside their own homes off the lead. They are too often the cause of very bad accidents. Any motorist will swerve, naturally, almost instinctively, to avoid a dog running on to the street, and in swerving he may of course very easily go into a head-on collision with somebody coming the other way. I think that is very true. But in every other way I am afraid I am absolutely against the Bill. The chief reason is that, to my mind, it is totally unenforceable, as other noble Lords have said. I think the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would agree that the worst thing one can do is to create legislation which is unenforceable. This Bill is unenforceable for one reason. No legislation, however efficient it is, can contradict an even stronger law, and that is the law of nature. And it is the law of nature, unfortunately, that a dog feels from time to time that it has to relieve itself, and nothing on earth that we can do is going to alter that. A dog has been trained from the earliest time that it must not do so inside the house but that it is perfectly all right to do so outside it. Is it now going to have to learn another lesson, that there are two kinds of outside? I would be the first to say that dogs are extremely trainable creatures, but to teach a dog the difference between the macadam on the pavement and the macadam on the street, I think is really expecting too much of it.
What is more, of course, on the pavement there are certain upright articles. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, mentioned lamp-posts, and my noble friend Lord Hastings mentioned trees. The male dog of course makes instinctively for these. Upright articles are almost invariably on the pavement; they are not on the street, and as a one-time motorist I am very glad they are not. They are, and will remain, on the pavement. Therefore, I feel that it is perfectly impossible for any owner of a dog to train the dog that it must never relieve itself except in the gutter; and even that, as my noble friend Lord Hastings said, is dangerous with traffic as it is to-day. And, lastly, are the Government really satisfied that
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the penalties as they are proposed in the Bill are going to prove a sufficient deterrent to the dog to prevent it from relieving itself? I myself very much doubt it.
3.30 p.m.
LORD DOWDING: My Lords, a deal of good common sense has been talked this afternoon and I do not propose to go over it all again. I should merely like to point out one or two aspects of the case which so far do not seem to have received due attention. There are two questions which I should like to ask the noble Lord who moved this Bill. Perhaps he could answer them before I say any more. The first is about nuisances. Are our nuisances all of one kind or are there major and minor nuisances? The noble Lord cannot answer that? The other question relates to the fact that many dogs are trained, whether it is reasonable or not, to defalcate into the gutter. I should like to know whether that would be an offence or not. It is true that it is not exactly on the footway but it is just adjacent to the footway, and people are often compelled to step off the footway while they are walking along a crowded road.
Something that really worried me more than anything else was the provision that, in public open spaces which adjoin a road, a footpath shall also be considered as a footpath within the meaning of the Bill. I think that is a terrible thing. To begin with, it would exclude dogs from having their run in all the parks in London. One could not even take a dog for a run on Wimbledon Common because there is a footpath all along one side of it. To take an extreme case, one could not take a dog on to Salisbury Plain. So I think that is a bad provision in the Bill and whatever is done that should be dealt with.
In regard to the fines for these offences, I feel inclined to use the word "ferocious". Fancy being fined £20 because one morning your dog has slipped out and made a mess on the pavement! In any event, these fines will have a most alarming effect on dog owners, especially those who are not well educated or well informed. If this Bill were introduced and enforced, the effect of it would be to persuade a large number of people to get rid of their dogs.

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The dog would perhaps be out all night, and when it came in in the morning the owner would be afraid that it had committed some offence during the night, and he would take the little round disc of identity from the dog's collar and turn the dog out of doors. It seems to me a terrible thing to have to say that people would do that, but it is well known that they do such things when their pockets are in any way threatened.
Finally, there is a provision to the effect that the police or district authorities may destroy or dispose of unclaimed dogs. That would be an open door to the resumption of the capture of stray dogs for vivisection. For many years the laboratories have tried to get permission to be given stray clogs by the police for laboratory purposes. So far those pleas have been successfully rejected. The Bill says only that the police or the district authorities may destroy or dispose of unclaimed dogs. If this provision were to become law it would permit them to sell the dogs to civilian purchasers whose bona fides had not been checked; and we should merely be opening the doors of the laboratories to a large number of fresh victims.

LONDON GOVERNMENT: THE CHILDREN'S SERVICE
3.37 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON): My Lords, if I may be allowed to intervene for a moment, I should like with your Lordships' permission, to read a Statement that is being made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government in another place in answer to a Question about the reorganisation of London Government,
The Statement is as follows:
"The Government have examined all the changes timed to come into full operation on April 1. Our initial reservations about the London Government Act remain, but our return to office came too late to allow us to reshape the new system in any material way. The new borough councils and the Greater London Council had been elected and were far advanced in their detailed preparations for the assump-
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tion of their new responsibilities. The desirability of a different allocation of functions had to be weighed against the danger of disrupting services by a last minute change of direction.
"None the less, we have been considering whether, in view of the strong feeling which exists in certain quarters, we should not, even at this late date, legislate to transfer to the Greater London Council responsibility for certain specialised aspects of the children's service in the Greater London area. Consultation between my right honourable and learned friend the Home Secretary and the interests concerned showed, however, that, while there is considerable support for such a step, opinion is not unanimously in favour. There is, moreover, a widespread fear that a change of arrangements at this stage might be detrimental to the operation of the children's service and to the interests of the children themselves. We have therefore concluded that we must allow the transfer of functions to take effect without amendment.
"In this situation we shall now do our utmost to ensure the success of the new system. But we propose to keep the working of the Act under review, to ensure, for instance, that housing loses none of its impetus. We shall maintain close consultation with the Greater London Council, the London borough councils and the Common Council, and we will not hesitate to introduce amendments at a later date, should experience suggest that it is right to do so. In particular, we shall reconsider the requirement to review educational arrangements in Inner London before 1970, which is imposed on my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science by the London Government Act, 1963.
"In the meantime it is essential that local authorities in the Greater London Area should work closely together to co-ordinate the operation of the social services, and particularly the children's service."
3.41 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, when one remembers the many statements made by the Leader of the House (I am sorry he is not here at the present

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moment), and others in the Party opposite, as to what changes they would definitely make in the London Government Act if they came into power, this is indeed an astonishing Statement. It uses a great many words to seek to justify the fact that this is another instance of the Party opposite eating words uttered before they came into power. I am not seeking to dispute the Tightness of their conclusion, and I certainly welcome the statement that they will now do their utmost to ensure the success of the new system.
I am puzzled about one passage in the Statement. It says that the Government
"propose to keep the working of the Act under review."
Then, a little later, the noble Lord, quoting the words of his right honourable friend, said:
"In particular, we shall reconsider the requirement to review educational arrangements in Inner London before 1970 … "
May I ask him what that means? There is the requirement to review those arrangements before 1970. To reconsider that requirement would appear at least to indicate the possibility of introducing legislation to dispense with it. That does not seem to me to accord very well with the general statement that they will keep the working of this Act under review. I shall be grateful if the noble Lord will explain what is meant by those words.
I, too, endorse the concluding paragraph of the Statement where the Minister of Housing has said:
"… it is essential that local authorities in the Greater London Area should work closely together to co-ordinate the operation of the social services and particularly the children's service."
We always recognised that as being essential under the provisions of the Bill we introduced.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I am glad to hear that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, is in favour of co-operation in this matter. It is indeed seriously needed, and it should be the concern of all who have the children's service at heart. I am a little surprised that he is surprised. I think he must have missed the second sentence of the Statement which I made, and I will read it out again:
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"Our initial reservations about the London Government Act remain, but our return to office came too late to allow us to reshape the new system in any material way."
If the noble and learned Viscount will look at the statements made at the time by various members of my Party he will find that they all contained, I think, a reservation that they would not attempt to do what was impracticable. Even if they did not, I should have thought that was obvious and would be well understood by everyone concerned.
As to the last paragraph, I am not here to add to anything that my right honourable friend has said (or is saying) in another place, but I took the statement to mean that he would keep this matter under constant review, as the usual phrase goes, and would re-examine it in that sense. It seems to me unwise to preclude a Minister charged with these very grave responsibilities in the matter of London Government from examining any side of it. It was a single sentence. I so understood it; I may have been wrong—I do not know—but I will gladly, if the noble and learned Viscount wishes, pass the question on to my right honourable friend and ask him to let the noble Viscount have an answer. I have given him my own reading.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord is in some difficulty in explaining what is meant by a sentence spoken by his right honourable friend in another place. I should be grateful if he would take steps to find out exactly what is meant and inform us of the precise meaning. Having said that the whole operation will be kept under review—and, of course, any Government would keep the operation of the Act relating to local government under review—he then apparently picks out this requirement to review before 1970 as something special, and says that that requirement will be reconsidered. It does not seem to me to follow. I may have missed something and I will not pursue it. But I hope the noble Lord will take that step.
In regard to the noble Lord's remark about the second sentence, that any pledge given was conditional on the practicability of the fulfilment of the pledge, may we take it that the same applied to a pledge given with regard to the reduction of mortgage interest rates?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, if I may say so, that is really, to the noble and learned Viscount's own knowledge, an entirely different matter. On the first point, I would thank him for his courteous understanding of the position in which I find myself over this matter, and I will ask my right honourable and learned friend whether he can add anything to what he said. Personally—and I am speaking only personally—I have not much doubt about the meaning, which I gave to the noble and learned Viscount, but he well knows that one can read things which appear clear to one person and less clear to another.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, many of your Lordships who remember the passage of the London Government Bill through this House will understand exactly what I mean when I say that this Statement to-day has given me the most profound satisfaction and also caused me a considerable amount of amusement. I had to bear the brunt of the then Opposition's attack because of the provisions in the Bill which concentrated all the personal services in the London boroughs—opposition, which was very often ferocious, led by the noble Earl, the Leader of the House (I can well understand why he was not here to listen to this Statement), and nobly supported by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. Now, so far as I understand the Statement, there is complete vindication of what we put into the Bill. My satisfaction is profound.
LORD LINDGREN: It is Hobson's choice.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, may I be allowed to read, for the third time, the second sentence of the Statement I read out? It says:
"Our initial reservations about the London Government Act remain, but our return to office came too late to allow us to reshape the new system in any material way."
That is what the: Statement says. It indicates no change of attitude at all, except that that which might have been practicable if there had been an earlier Election became impracticable when the Election, for certain reasons, was postponed till October.
LORD NEWTON: Let me say this, my Lords. It is very difficult for the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, to justify his
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Statement, because he was not a Member of your Lordships' House at the time the London Government Bill passed through it.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, may one who was a Member at that time interject to say that I was one of those who offered to rescind the original measure. But we were expecting that the Government would go to the country at a reasonable hour and not wait until we were faced with a fait accompli.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, the noble Viscount who spoke for the Opposition expressed some surprise at the Statement which has now been read. I express surprise that he dared to speak in the kind of way he did. His Government clung to office until the very last moment. When certain statements were made in this House and in another place, it was thought that there would be a General Election at a much earlier date than when it actually occurred. But the Government of which the noble Viscount was a Member stayed in office until the last moment, and to expect the Government which has succeeded it in those circumstances to make changes in the very complicated matter of the government of London and of Greater London is an unreasonable and a Party point which no responsible speaker for a Party ought to make in this House. I am saying this because the criticism which has been made from the Front Bench and elsewhere on the other side of the House has been dealt with on this side with great reasonableness, moderation and caution; and charges of the kind which have been made from the Opposition require to be met with the kind of language which the noble Viscount used.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): My Lords, may I suggest, as there is no Motion before the House, that we are now going into a debate, which I think is quite unreasonable. There will be ample opportunity to put down a Motion on this matter if it is felt desirable, but I think that we should now resume the debate on the Dogs Bill.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, before that happens, I think, in view of what has just been said, that I ought to say this. I was just rising to my feet to say that we are not debating when the

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date of the Election was, and if the noble Lord thought it right to deliver an attack upon me I do not propose to answer him or to reply to it. I do not think it is worthy of him. All I do say to the noble Lord is that I understand quite clearly from him that there is no prospect now held by the Government of making any changes. They do not propose to make any changes at all, despite what they said, in the terms of the London Government Act until they have seen how it works in operation. That I welcome.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, may I just add one word in conclusion? The first sentence used by Mr. Michael Stewart, who was then attending to these matters from the Opposition Front Bench in another place—true, it was said at a Press conference but it will serve—was this:
"What we do is bound to be governed by the date at which we come into power."
That was said as long ago as March, 1963. I feel confident that my right honourable friend will exercise the same foresight in managing our foreign relations as he showed in another sphere by that sentence at that time.

DOGS BILL [H.L.]
3.54 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, to come back to the somewhat quieter subject of dogs, there will be few of your Lordships who do not sympathise with, and approve of, the object of this Bill. Nobody will deny the necessity for some sort of action to remedy the nuisance, which grows rather than diminishes as years go by. My one uncertainty relates to the probable effectiveness of the noble Lord's proposals for meeting this problem. Can they be enforced? I am reminded of a remark by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth—he is not here now—who said in a debate on dogs which we had a few years ago:
"What is the good of cluttering up our Statute Book with enactments that are not enforced or cannot be enforced?"
Does the noble Lord opposite feel that an overworked and undermanned police force will take note of, let alone take action against, an offence of this nature?
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The answer to the problem, as I see it, is something very different. I think the answer is drastically to reduce the number of dogs in London and other big towns and cities. The way to reduce that number is to put on a whacking great licence fee for all dogs so kept. The current 7s. 6d. dog licence, which, as your Lordships know, dates from somewhere about 1878, long before most of us were born, is in any case grossly inadequate, besides being notoriously evaded by all and sundry. But bring in a law requiring all residents who own and keep their dogs in London, or other big towns and cities, to pay on January 1 each year a sum of, say, £3—I very nearly said £4 or £5—for which they will be given a tag to be attached to the dog's collar showing that that £3 licence has been paid, and you may then see a considerable reduction in the urban dog population.
In any case, generally speaking, dogs have a pretty miserable existence in London and big cities and, as a dog lover, which most of your Lordships are, I should like to see them banished from towns altogether. So while I admire the public-spirited action of the noble Lord opposite, and congratulate him on the efforts he is making to clear up the streets, I am not enthusiastic about the particular proposals he makes. Nevertheless, I will not oppose the Second Reading.
3.58 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, I should just like to support the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on his Amendment. I consider that this Bill is quite unnecessary and impracticable. Clause l (1) (a) is unnecessary because, as we have already heard, this matter is already covered by existing by-laws. For instance, there is the shepherd driving his sheep into market. He cannot help it if his dog fouls a pavement or, for that matter, if a sheep fouls a pavement, and, if you are going to have him up because his dog fouls the pavement, to be practicable you should also have him up if his sheep fouls the pavement. Under the by-laws, of course, the man is had up only if he is proved to have been really blameworthy, but under the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, he is blameworthy in any event, so far as I can see.
I should just like to point to paragraph (b) of Clause 1 (1), where the whole Bill

1105
falls down: it falls down on the word "adjoining". What is the legal definition of the word "adjoining"? How far have you got to be from an object before you cease to be adjoining? For instance, have you to be 100 feet, 100 yards or 100 miles'? We talk about England adjoining Ireland, but I am in England and if another human being is in Ireland I am not adjoining that human being. So it would appear that the word "adjoining" depends to a certain extent on the size of the objects said to be adjoining. Therefore, until we have a proper definition of the word "adjoining" in this Bill, where it occurs in the phrase
"a public open space adjoining any such footway"—
in other words, any public place adjoining where the lamp-posts are not more than 200 yards apart—it might mean anything. It might mean a public open space miles away. To me, it is nonsense.
However, I cannot agree with my noble friend Lord Ailwyn, who said that all dogs in our urban areas should be done away with. We have in urban areas over a million people who own dogs, and a great number of these people are widowers or spinsters. They are lonely people, and a dog is a great comfort to them. I really cannot agree with my noble friend there. You also have the question of guide dogs for the blind. It would be monstrous if, under this Bill, a blind person should be "had up" if his dog fouls the pavement. It would be quite impracticable.
I should like to make just one further point about Clause 2. I think the police or requisite authority ought to allow three weeks for the claiming of a dog; and they ought not to be allowed, if the dog is not claimed, or if it cannot go to a responsible person, to send the dog to be used for research purposes. It ought to be humanely destroyed. I say that—it may seem sentimental—because there are establishments in this country that breed dogs for the purpose of research; and if you take a stray dog that may have come—presumably has come—from a home where it has been a pet and send it for research, then in my opinion it will suffer more than a dog which has been brought up in the impersonal atmosphere of a big kennel. My Lords, I will end by saying that I shall vote against the Second Reading of this Bill if it goes to a vote, as I
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presume it will. Therefore, I heartily support the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his Amendment.
4.3 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF EXETER: My Lords, may I intervene for one moment? Perhaps I should declare an interest, because I am the master of a pack of foxhounds, and, were I to take twenty couple to a meet in a neighbouring town, and if the stars in their courses should fight against me, by a simple process of arithmetic I might find myself liable to a fine of £200. Many noble Lords have already gone into this matter in a good deal of detail, and I do not propose to refer to that part of the Bill, the central part, which refers to the lamp-post, although I should have thought that common usage over the centuries would perhaps have given our canine friends a certain right, and that they should be allowed to exercise it in this way.
But I think that both the noble Lord who has proposed the Second Reading of this Bill and the noble Lord who has moved the Amendment have one point very much in common. What we should like to see stopped is the deliberate fouling of the pavements. With a dog that is out on its own—and dogs will always have their walks on their own—I do not think it is reasonable to expect that it can be stopped: because it is careful enough to avoid being killed by traffic. But this sort of thing has happened, and will continue so long as we have dogs. But what I think annoys us all very much is to see someone, with a dog on a lead, hopefully looking into a shop window while his pet fouls the sidewalk. It is in this sort of case that action should be taken. Instead of "yo-yoing" it straight into the gutter, they just stand there looking into the shop window. This, I feel, is the centre of the problem. It is not a matter for a Bill in your Lordships' House, but is more properly dealt with in by-laws made by the local government authorities in the various districts concerned.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, may I remind the noble Marquess that the second time it happened it would not be £200 but might be £800?
THE MARQUESS OF EXETER: That seems to be a good point for the anti-blood sports people.
4.5 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, perhaps I might also remind the noble Marquess that, under the terms of this Bill, the fact that he was hunting his pack, presumably, in a rural area would by no means guarantee immunity: it would almost certainly be in an area which was governed by this Bill. Apart from the somewhat equivocal support from the noble Lord, Lord Ailwyn, I think that every noble Lord who has spoken in this debate so far has spoken against the Bill, and I do not propose to disturb that unanimity. Not only do I speak on my own behalf, as this is a Private Member's Bill, but I also think it right to give some indication of the Government's attitude.
I always enjoy listening to the speeches of my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch. There is a sonorous quality in his delivery which has something of a musical appeal, and his arguments also appeal to the intellect. But on this occasion, sadly, while the music was as attractive as ever, the words, it seemed to me, were almost an affront, not only to dog owners and to dogs, but to the intelligence. I strongly support the arguments which were advanced by my noble friend Lord Silkin in moving his Amendment, and, indeed, most of what has been said by other noble Lords during the debate; because where the Bill's proposals are not virtually impossible of enforcement, they are either quite unnecessary or so ill-conceived as to cause positive hardship.
No-one disputes—and this point was made many times during the debate—that the fouling of footways by dogs is a nuisance, and that any reasonable measure to reduce that nuisance is worthy of support. As my noble friend Lord Silkin made quite clear, county councils and borough councils already have powers under Section 249 of the Local Government Act, 1933, to make by-laws for the suppression of nuisances. And, indeed (and this has not been made clear during the debate), a great many local authorities have made bylaws which make it an offence to permit a dog to foul the footway of any street or public place.
This is the most convenient and, in fact, almost the only appropriate way
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of dealing with nuisances of this kind, because local authorities, with knowledge of their own areas, are in a better position than anyone else to deal with this sort of nuisance in the areas for which they have responsibility. My Department has a model by-law, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, referred, which provides that no person in charge of a dog shall allow that dog to foul the footway of any street or public place; and the by-law includes other provisions, including that of a fine not exceeding £5.
My Lords, as one would expect, by-laws on this subject are difficult to enforce, because the offences usually occur when there are no witnesses and it is not possible to trace the offenders. The duty of enforcement rests mainly with the local authority, and our experience shows that these by-laws are effective only in those areas where the local authorities have taken active steps to enforce them and to continue to give publicity to them. Whatever we did about this Bill, that would still be true; and without the active cooperation of the local authorities nothing we did would have any effect. There will be no advantage whatever in the Bill's proposal to make a kind of national rule, because local authorities will be energetic in enforcing such a rule only if there is a proved local need. I would point out that there is a major difference between existing arrangements regarding the fouling of footways of streets or public places and the proposal in Clause 1 of my noble friend's Bill. The Bill not only defines the footway as any highway where there is a system of street lighting with lamps not more than 200 yards apart but it enlarges the area of possible offence to include any open space adjoining such footways.
I was very pleased to hear my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch say that at one time when he was far away from any habitation his constant companion was a dog. When I read the Bill I thought that that might not be the case. I do not know how far away from human habitation he was, or where the place was; but I can think of many places in this country—the New Forest, for example—far away from human habitation, in which it would become an offence under his Bill for him to exercise his dog. There are many urban areas where the street lamps are not more than 30 yards apart

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—which from the viewpoint of a dog is ideal—but the 200-yards provision would include in the area many lighted highways far beyond the built-up areas. And, as the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, mentioned, the term "public open spaces" would also include all parks, commons and other open spaces, as well as the grass verges and small greens set in the midst of streets, all of which are often the only places in urban areas where dogs may be exercised without nuisance to pedestrians and without causing danger to traffic.
The noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, raised the point of the meaning of the term "adjoining". I live at the top of Highgate Hill, with a choice of open spaces within 200 or 300 yards. I would assure him that they are so "adjoining" the streets, with street lamps every 30 yards, that one has only to take a single step from the highway to be in the public park or open space. And I can assure your Lordships that, despite the difficulties which some noble Lords appear to experience, when I take my dog for a walk he exercises what I can only call a noble restraint in passing the area of lamp-posts at 25-yard intervals and then does whatever is necessary in the adjoining place, out of sight and without harm to anyone, as soon as we get to the nearest public open space. Under my noble friend's Bill, this would be an offence. A few days ago I travelled by night from Highgate, where I live, into Surrey. I took particular notice of how far I had to travel before the street lights ended. It was 22 miles. If this Bill were accepted, dog owners in London would have to hire helicopters if they would legally exercise their dogs.
I mentioned that the power of enforcing by-laws is exercised mainly by the local authorities; although, of course, the police can take action if they wish. But the Bill now before us proposes general legislation, which means that the duty of enforcement would be transferred to the police. This, apparently, is the intention of my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch. But, as my noble friend Lord Silkin has made clear, this would certainly not be welcomed by the police; and it would be contrary to the views expressed by the Royal Commission, and by all of us, against unnecessary increase in the duties of the police. It would be par-
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ticularly undesirable at present because of the shortage of manpower, and it cannot reasonably be expected that the police should prosecute for provisions of this kind designed to preserve public amenities.
I do not subscribe to the view that this matter is beneath the notice of your Lordships' House. I do not agree that the subject is unworthy of your attention, but I do say that it is intolerable to foist on to the police duties of this kind, when we are all too painfully aware that their numbers are too few to cope with the ever-mounting duties they have to perform in the way we and they would like. It is notable that local authorities are required to enforce the Litter Act, and it is right that responsibility for the enforcement of analogous legislation should also be left with them.
In Clause 2 of his Bill my noble friend deals with dogs that may be found wandering. It covers the same ground as Section 3 of the Dogs Act, 1906, but very much less adequately. I do not want to read out the whole of it, but Section 3 of the 1906 Act contains ten subsections and it sets out in most satisfactory detail what has to be done with regard to stray dogs. This has worked very well for nearly sixty years and I am at a loss to know why Clause 2 should have been put in the Bill at all, particularly as it lacks many of the safeguards of the 1906 Act and contains some differences of substance affecting the police.
For example, Clause 2 of my noble friend's Bill is not limited, as it should be, to dogs found in highways or places of public resort. It also requires dogs to be kept for fourteen days before destruction or disposal, compared with seven days in the 1906 Act. This would unnecessarily increase the trouble and expense to which the police are put in dealing with stray dogs. That may not be my noble friend's intention, because he does not provide in his Bill that the dogs should be properly fed and maintained during the fourteen days.
Then, under the 1906 Act the owner cannot have his dog back until he has paid the police expenses. That is a very simple procedure. But under my noble friend's proposals the owner could claim his dog as of right, without having first to pay the police expenses. That would

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leave the police with the onus of recovering the expenses as a civil debt. In fact, my Lords, Clause 2 of the Bill adds nothing useful to the provisions of the 1906 Act.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, on this point is it not also true that this Bill does not even say that if the owner's name and address is on the dog collar the police must inform him before destroying the dog if it is not claimed within the fourteen days?
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, that is another omission. Those of your Lordships who are interested should read Section 3 of the 1906 Act which contains ten very comprehensive and sensible provisions, not only to ensure that the owners should be able to claim their dogs but also for the protection of the dog while in custody. Very little has been said in this debate about the proper protection and care of the dog. There seems to have been a general assumption that the dog is to be regarded as an offender; and that is something I completely reject.
There are many other objections to this extraordinary Bill, including, as my noble friend Lord Silkin mentioned, the hardship likely to be suffered by elderly, blind or disabled people, who depend very much on their dogs, as well as by the great majority of the 2 million dog owners in this country to whom their dogs are personal friends which they treasure very highly. If the Bill were passed, it would inflict hardship on the whole community of law-abiding dog owners and well-behaved dogs. I appreciate my noble friend's motives, but I hope he will accept that his proposals for furthering those very laudable motives would create serious difficulties. I think it has been made clear during the debate that to a large extent his Bill duplicates existing powers, which work reasonably well. Where he seeks to add to those powers he has failed to show that a need exists. But the greatest objection to the Bill is that if it were enacted we should be putting on the Statute Book legislation which was unnecessary, unreasonable and virtually unenforceable. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will decide to withdraw the Bill. But if he is not willing to do that, I would ask your Lordships to support the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Silkin.
4.22 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, experience of more than fifty years of public life has taught me that arguments in favour of the status quo can always be produced with great facility. It does not really matter whether they are consistent or otherwise. My noble friend Lord Stonham and other noble Lords who have spoken have said that these proposals are not enforceable. At the same time, my noble friend speaks for the Home Office, which is the body which sanctions and approves by-laws made by local authorities which, in substance, are very much the same as the provisions of Clause 1 of this Bill. If the Home Office is engaged, time after time, in approving by-laws which are useless and unenforceable, I feel very much surprised.
The truth of the matter is that they are not unenforceable. It is merely that people do not take the trouble, where by-laws exist, to enforce them. I am suggesting, in all humility, to your Lordships that this is a very undesirable state of affairs. If the local authorities who make the by-laws do not choose to enforce them, then it would be better if we had some public legislation which could be enforced by the police. I am told that the police are very busy and over-strained. In very many cases, that may be true. But are we going to have a holiday from all legislation which requires enforcement procedure by the police? Have we had such a holiday in recent years, and are we likely to have it in the future? I shall be very surprised, indeed, if that happens. It is a convenient argument to use in detail against some particular piece of legislation, but it is not an overriding reason.
I am sorry that local authorities make these by-laws and do not enforce them. I think it is extremely reprehensible. But there is a considerable amount of public uneasiness in this matter. As I have told your Lordships, I have received many complaints from all over this country. This is not a laughing matter; it is quite a serious matter. Nor is it true that this is a proposal which is going to inflict hardship or inconvenience upon old people and blind people. Guide dogs for the blind, I may point out to your Lordships, are so carefully trained that without any guidance or control by their owners they take to the gutter when they

1113
want to relieve themselves. It is part of their training. They do not have to be instructed by their owners; they are already instructed. And all of us who have dogs can easily guide them to do the same thing. There is not any real difficulty about it.
The only difficulty is to get provisions which will safeguard the streets passed and put into operation. I do not want to detain your Lordships very long. It may be that there are details in this Bill which are capable of improvement. I should be the last person to suggest that there were not, and few noble Lords who have introduced a Private Member's Bill have not been faced with the difficulty that the ingenuity of whatever Government Department is concerned has found something which it considers to be capable of improvement. That I am always willing to listen to, and I hope that I shall pay heed to any constructive criticism. But for anybody to say that these provisions cannot be enforced is to say that it is perfectly useless to have any by-laws at all and that they ought to be repealed. That is the logical consequence of it. I do not accept this.
As to the question of manpower, some noble Lords have said that this proposal is going to be solved by having the streets swept more frequently. I wonder how much more frequently. Where I live, the streets are swept every day. Are they going to be swept two or three times a day, and is that a means of conserving manpower? Surely this is an argument which cannot hold water. It is only a minority of owners—quite a handful—who are responsible for this trouble, and who let their dogs out every day or deliberately take them along the street and do not attempt to guide them to any place where offence would not be caused. To say that it will cause the employment of a great deal of manpower in order to cope with it is not at all correct. Anybody who has studied it knows that this is not so. Neither is it correct to say that dogs cannot be trained and controlled by their owners. In my opening speech, I referred to the National Dog Owners' Association, which has devoted itself for years past to explaining to the owners of dogs how they can train their dogs so that they will be obedient and conform to what is required. There is no real difficulty about this at all. I am sorry that points of that kind should be raised. Points of a constructive
1114
character suggesting amendment to the Bill I should always be delighted to accede to, but to say that, in principle, this is a thing with which we cannot cope, I cannot accept for a single moment.
4.28 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I had hoped that after the numerous and devastating speeches that have been made on both sides of the House, but principally on the other side, against this Bill, my noble friend would see that discretion is the better part of valour and would withdraw the Bill. Apparently, he is not willing to do so. I have the last word, but I do not think I need to say much.
The noble Lord referred to the fact that by-laws have been ineffective or have not been acted on. He makes some play with the fact that the Home Office approves these by-laws. I, myself, took the view that these by-laws were unenforceable. One would expect them to be unenforceable, and, speaking for myself, I am sorry that the Home Office have approved these by-laws which are not enforceable. But that is no reason why we should go further, bring in the police and do something which is even more unenforceable.
Most of the difficulty of which my noble friend complains takes place in the course of exercising dogs, and dogs are exercised mainly early in the morning or late at night, or on Sunday. If my noble friend goes to any of the parks—Kensington Gardens or Hyde Park—on a Sunday morning, he will see hundreds and hundreds of dogs being exercised, giving joy not only to the dogs, but to their owners. It is true that on those occasions if we had an army of policemen they might exercise some control. But how one can expect the police to be on duty early in the morning and late at night to supervise the activities of dogs is quite beyond me; and moreover those are just the times when they are needed for other purposes. So I base my case largely on the fact that this Bill will be unenforceable, as has been demonstrated by the fact that the by-laws are unenforceable.
I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Ailwyn, referred to the desirability of reducing the number of dogs.
LORD AILWYN: In London.
LORD SILKIN: In London or anywhere else. Dogs are a great comfort

1115
and pleasure to most people who own them, and it would be a great pity if we decided to reduce their number. But, in any case, to reduce the number by imposing a higher tax seems to me to be quite the wrong way to do it, because what you are then doing is penalising people who by and large are not able to pay this extra tax. It is mostly the poor people who enjoy the company of dogs and who need their companionship. To say that those people must be deprived of their dogs or made to pay a heavier tax, so causing them great sacrifice and hardship, is, I think, quite wrong. Indeed, I would go the other way. There are some cases where I would relieve people altogether of taxation in this respect. The old-age pensioner, who in many cases relies so much on his dog, and others of that kind, to whom even a 7s. 6d. tax is something of a hardship, I would relieve altogether of the obligation to pay this tax. Be that as it may, I think that the case has been fully made out against this Bill, and I hope the House will have the good sense to vote against it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

SOLICITORS BILL [H.L.]
4.32 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TANGLEY: My Lords, I am well aware that to divert your Lordships' attention from the excitement of a dog's life to the humdrum routine of a solicitor's life must necessarily be something of an anticlimax. Yet I must do this, because the professional life of solicitors is largely governed by statutory provisions, and as conditions change, so it is necessary from time to time to invite Parliament to change the legislative framework to keep pace with the social changes that are going on all the time. That is really what I am inviting your Lordships to do this afternoon. The last time your Lordships had an opportunity of considering the case of solicitors was nine years ago, in 1956. That Bill was followed by a Consolidation Act in the following year, 1957. Apart from one quite trifling amendment in 1959, there has
1116
been no legislation since 1957. Therefore, it is necessary to ask your Lordships, if I may put it in this way, to bring the law up to dale.
May I say one word about the drafting of this Bill? It looks longer than it really is. The reason for this is that instead of merely trying to insert a phrase here or a phrase there into the Consolidation Act, we have, so far as possible, in drafting the Bill, where we have amended a section, repealed the section and re-enacted it as amended. That may make the Bill a little longer, but it makes it much easier to construe in years to come; and I hope your Lordships will feel that the solicitors have set a virtuous example in this respect.
I should like to say how grateful I am to have the countenance of the presence of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, his predecessor, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, and the Master of the Rolls, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning; and I hope that before the proceedings have finished the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parker of Waddington, the Lord Chief Justice of England, will be here, too. The holders of these three great offices of State bulk largely in this Bill, and I should like to thank them not only for being present here to-day but also for the help which solicitors have had from them in the past. During the 28 years that I was a member of the Council of the Law Society, with my colleagues and members of the staff, I must have had innumerable meetings with the holders of these great offices. I cannot pretend that I always came away from those encounters with a feeling of unqualified satisfaction, but, none the less, we knew that we should have sympathetic and understanding treatment; and we have always had it.
I think this Bill can most conveniently be considered as dealing with five separate matters, as follows: education and training; the Compensation Fund; certain preventive provisions; certain provisions about the Disciplinary Committee; and certain consequential and procedural matters. I believe it will be for the convenience of your Lordships if I deal with them in that way.
Education and training is just as important for solicitors as it is for dogs—in fact, more important. One of the great difficulties one has is to combine

1117
—and this applies not only to the solicitors' profession but, I think, to all professions—a general education with the necessary vocational or professional training, and to decide how within the scope of that vocational training one can best combine the academic and practical elements which, certainly so far as solicitors are concerned, there must be. After all, for a solicitor it is not sufficient only to know the law; he must also know what to do and how to do it. All these things have somehow or other to be combined, and the training has to be finished, let us say, at least before the student reaches middle age. The gap between biological and technical maturity is already too great to-day, and it is something that we must always recognise.
The system of training for solicitors is changing quite fast It is very different from what it was when I was articled, which was 50 years ago this year. Then the normal system was fairly standardised. You had to have a certain educational standard. You served five-years articles, which could be reduced to four years for certain things. You passed an intermediate examination at the end of the first year, and then a final examination at about the end of your articles. If you had a degree from a university, then the period of articles was reduced to three years; and if you had a law degree, you got exemption from the intermediate examination as well. But these exemptions were the exception in those days, and the five years' period of articles was the rule. There were no Government grants then, of course. You had to pay a premium to your principal to be allowed to serve in. his office, and there was no sort of pay while you were serving under articles.
Things are very different to-day. Social changes have led to what is really quite a new system. Sixty per cent. of the entrants to-day come with university degrees and, therefore, serve no more—though sometimes they serve less—than three years. Very few solicitors ask for a premium in these days; that is a dying custom. Most solicitors pay their articled clerks during their period of service. The Intermediate Examination has been abolished and has been replaced by the division of the Final Examination into two parts: the first, a general examination in the law from which a university law degree exempts, and then the second
1118
part, a specialised examination with a wide choice of specialised subjects. Then there is attendance at law school.
The result of all this is that it is possible to get through to-day with only two to two and a half years' practical experience. In almost all cases the newly admitted solicitor needs, and usually gets, further practical experience as an employee before being really fit to practise on his own or to become a partner. Although he is still called an articled clerk, the articled clerk is rapidly becoming a different kind of animal from what he was when I was an articled clerk. His life really is divided into three parts: first of all, his academic life; secondly, his practical and vocational training with some kind of pay, and thirdly, the further experience he gets after qualification at a higher rate of pay. I think the Law Society are to be congratulated on the adaptations that have already been made to these rapid changes. But much more remains to be done, and I believe it is necessary to proceed experimentally step by step.
I do not believe we shall get the right final answer all in one move. Here, the Law Society and the profession are handicapped by the fact that the legislative system governing the training of articled clerks for their examination is a mixture of Statute and regulation. Some of the items can be dealt with by regulation made by the Law Society (with the approval, of course, of the three Judges I have mentioned). Some of the changes would require the Law Society to come back to Parliament from time to time and ask for changes in the Statute law.
The first change, therefore, that is being asked for by the Bill—and I suggest to your Lordships it is a reasonable and constructive one—is that all these matters might be dealt with by regulation instead of partly by regulation and partly by Statute. That covers the first three clauses of the Bill and, with it, Clause 6 (1) (a) and (b), which deals with the conditions which the Law Society can attach to a practising certificate given to a young man who has had only two or two and a half years' actual experience in an office.
Looking at Clause 6 (1) (a) and (b), I am not quite happy about the drafting of it. I think it may be construed as authorising the Law Society as registrar

1119
to refuse a certificate altogether. That would be unnecessary, and going too far. If it has that meaning, then it should be amended, and if your Lordships are good enough to give a Second Reading to this Bill then perhaps we could deal with that on a later occasion. That is what I wanted to say in justification of the clauses about education and training in this Bill.
The second item is the Compensation Fund. The Compensation Fund, as your Lordships know, is a voluntary fund established by the solicitors' profession, contributed to by solicitors, out of which compensation is paid to the victims of those very rare but very sad cases where solicitors defraud their clients. It is called a Compensation Fund because it is for compensation. It is a discretionary fund. There is no legal right to make a claim upon it. We have never called it an indemnity fund, but in fact all admitted claims have been paid. The money comes from a contribution of £10 a year from every practising member of the profession, and that has proved adequate over the years to meet the ordinary run of claims. But the Fund, I must admit, has had some very narrow escapes with the big, rare, deliberate, frauds which sometimes take place.
The great problem which has been exercising the Law Society is what is the best way of building up a reserve which would meet those big cases. Should one increase the normal contribution of £10? How can one tell what the increase should be? It may be too big, in which case too big a fund would be built up. It may be too small, in which case your problem would remain unsolved. No actuarial computation is possible with regard to claims upon this Fund.
Therefore, the proposal hit upon by the Law Society, and included in this Bill, is that the present contribution payable by everyone should not be changed, but that there should be a right on the part of the Law Society to make a levy on every solicitor, with certain exceptions, of a maximum of £50 in any one year. There would be no levy made in the case of a solicitor who does not handle clients' money, such as an employed solicitor, a local authority solicitor, or a Government Department solicitor. There would be no levy made for the first three years of
1120
a solicitor's life, and the levy for the next three years would be only half the normal rate. May I say that this is only, so to speak, a reserve power. There is No 1ntention of making such a levy at all if it can be avoided. There is certainly No 1ntention of making any sort of annual levy. In fact, if things go on in the future as they have in the past, it should not be necessary to make this levy at all. It is merely putting the whole resources of the profession behind the Compensation Fund as a reserve.
I am glad to tell your Lordships that this proposal has the very strong support of the profession. The idea was circulated to the provincial Law Societies nearly a year ago. They have had ample opportunity to consider it. They did consider it, and discuss it, with representatives of the Law Society at a conference held last summer, and the only amendment they suggested was this: whereas the Law Society had originally suggested a maximum of £40, the rank and file of the profession thought it was better and safer to increase that limit to £50. I can assure your Lordships that this proposal has the overwhelming support of the profession, after the profession had an opportunity of considering it thoroughly. Having got this reserve, if your Lordships will give it to us, it is felt that a long-desired extension of the type of case that could be met out of the Compensation Fund is now feasible: that is. the case of a person who suffers loss, not because of any actual fraud or dishonesty on the part of a solicitor, but because of undue and unexplained delay. Clause 16 of the Bill includes that as an additional category. Again I think it may be necessary to look at the drafting of that clause when we come to a later stage of the Bill, if your Lordships give it a Second Reading to-day.
I think I need say no more about the Compensation Fund, but may I say a few words about what I call the preventive provisions of the Bill? We have an elaborate code of discipline. We have the Disciplinary Committee; we have the Compensation Fund, to which I have already referred, but, what is far better than that, far better than either of those things, is to see whether one cannot prevent loss to clients arising at all. Of course, the Law Society over

1121
the years have been given by Parliament very wide powers of interference with solicitors, with the object of preventing loss from occurring, and in this Bill we have quite a number of clauses which carry a little further the existing powers of the Law Society in those respects. Most of these provisions, I think, are details of procedure and machinery of application for the issue of practising certificates and the conditions which may be attached to a practising certificate. Clauses 4, 5, 6 and 7 relate to practising certificates.
I think that I ought to draw your Lordships' attention to two specific points, particularly on Clause 5, which should be taken with Schedule 2. The Law Society have power at the present time to charge a maximum fee of £5 for the issue of a practising certificate, which is an annual certificate. It is proposed to increase that figure to a maximum of £20, the actual level to be approved from time to time by the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice and the Master of the Rolls. That may strike your Lordships as being a somewhat startling thing, but I have looked at the accounts of the Law Society, and at their budgets for the next five years, and I am afraid there is no doubt that some substantial increase in the certificate fee will be necessary. I do not think that £20 or anything like it, will be necessary. I doubt very much whether a case could be made, on application to the three Judges in question, time. That is merely a maximum.
In order to follow these points I think I must just tell your Lordships a little about the way the Law Society work. The functions of the Law Society apart from their statutory functions under the Legal Aid Scheme, are fourfold. First of all, there are statutory powers and duties, which are very onerous and very expensive; secondly, the law school and legal education generally; thirdly, activities on behalf of the profession as a whole, including, I may say, a great deal of public work in preparing evidence for Royal Commissions and departmental committees and other such bodies; and, fourthly (this is really quite a minor matter), the running of a club, with the usual club facilities, in London The expenditure
1122
of the Law Society covers those four different kinds of function.
The Law Society are, of course, incorporated by Royal Charter. Membership is voluntary, although the vast majority of solicitors in practice are, in fact, members. There is power under the 1957 Act, by order, to put compulsory membership into force with the approval of the Lord Chancellor, but that has never happened and I deeply hope that it never will. I think that voluntary membership is by far the best thing for everyone concerned.
The Society's income comes, first of all, from members' subscriptions; secondly, from examinations and law school fees; and, thirdly, from the fees for practising certificates and certain other documents. The club activities are meticulously paid for entirely out of members' subscriptions; and examination and law school fees go entirely towards legal education. All statutory duties, and the activities on behalf of the profession as ! a whole, have to be paid for out of the practising certificate fees. And much of the legal education, which is not self-supporting, has to be paid for in the same way.
I have told your Lordships that, as things stand at the moment, the Law Society will soon be running into a heavy deficit, so that an increase in this fee is inevitable. Which is the better way of doing it: to have to come to Parliament frequently, or to fix a maximum and leave the three Judges to decide from time to time what increase, if any, is necessary? I am pleading for the second course. There are many safeguards. Accounts have to be submitted to the Judges annually, and they have to be made available for inspection by any solicitor. One would have thought that the scrutiny of these three Judges was a sufficient safeguard. There is no public money involved here; we are dealing merely with payments to be made by solicitors.
The other matter I must mention to your Lordships, arising out of this clause, is the statutory provision which exists to-day about the division of the Law Society's income. Under Section 11 (2) of the 1957 Act it is provided that, of the £5 fee, 5s. should be applied to the

1123
Law Society's own use, and that the remainder should be applied:
"(a) in such manner and to such extent as the Society may consider necessary, towards the expenses of law schools provided or approved by the Society; and
(b) subject thereto, to such other purposes of this Act as the Society may think fit …".
Those words
"the expenses of law schools provided or approved by the Society;"
are not wide enough to-day to describe properly what the Law Society does in the matter of legal education. It would not cover, for example, the refresher courses run by the Society; special courses of lectures, or week-end courses, such as those which have been held on the Common Market and Common Market Law. It is proposed, therefore, to substitute the words
"the facilitating of the acquisition of legal knowledge".
That phraseology goes back to the actual wording contained in the Law Society's own Charter.
It is proposed also (and this perhaps needs a little more close attention) to abolish the statutory provision that only 5s. may be applied to the general purposes of the Society. Inevitably, in the nature of things, by far the largest part of the fee income must be absorbed in the statutory functions of the Law Society and legal education. Must one, every time there is a change in the level of contribution, do the arithmetic needed to secure that precisely 95 per cent. is spent in that way and only 5 per cent. for the general purposes of the Law Society? Here again the proposal is that the matter should be subject to the control of the three Judges. This is a very desirable safeguard, although I do not think it is a necessary one, because the record of the Law Society in public service and legal education is such that we would confidently claim that the Society can be well trusted by Parliament to make a proper division of their expenditure on their own account. But that is not asked for in this Bill. There is the safeguard that the three Judges should decide; and obviously it would be impossible to go to the three Judges and ask for an increase in the fees unless one were in a position to establish the purposes for which that increase was required and for which it would be spent.
1124
My Lords, there are a few other minor matters, in Clauses 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14 and 15, which are all extensions of the power of the Law Society to step into a solicitor's practice to prevent client losses. The clauses extend those cases where it has been found that there are certain gaps. I need not draw your Lordships' attention particularly to any of the provisions in these clauses, but if any noble Lord wishes me to explain them, either to-day or on some subsequent occasion, I shall, of course, be glad to do so. Clauses 12, 13, 14 and 15 apply to a solicitor practising alone on whom some calamity falls, and they would enable the Law Society to do what the other partners, the surviving partners, of the solicitor would do if he were practising in partnership. Clause 12, for example, authorises the Law Society to take control of the practice on death. Clause 13 entitles the Law Society to work the clients' account before probate. Clause 14 enables the Law Society to step in where there has been no probate or administration taken out within three months. Clause 15 provides that a certain kind of freezing order should be treated as an act of bankruptcy.
The only two of those clauses I want to comment on are No. 14 and No. 15. I am bound to tell your Lordships that the Senior Registrar in the Probate Division of the High Court does not think that Clause 14 is necessary; he believes that the matter could be dealt with under existing legislation, Section 162 of the Judicature Act. I would ask your Lordships' permission to reconsider that point before Committee stage and to speak further about it then. Clause 15, I must confess, gives me a certain amount of anxiety myself. Whenever you step in to do something for the clients you run the risk of being unjust to the solicitor. And here the President of the Board of Trade has pointed out that we are making something an act of bankruptcy which does not necessarily imply the existence of a debt, still less an unpaid debt, and it may be that there one is being unfair to the solicitor. Again, I should like to have an opportunity of reconsidering that before the next stage, but my present inclination is to ask your Lordships to omit that clause from the Bill.
The fifth matter—and I am coming very nearly to the end—is that there are

1125
certain points about the Disciplinary Committee. I think Clauses 20, 21 and 24 are those I should mention. First of all Clause 20. The quorum is three, and this clause proposes that if one of the three is absent, as may very well happen—a provincial solicitor coming from the North, held up by snow or fog or illness—then the other two should be entitled to say to the parties, "Do both of you want to go on or do you prefer to wait until our third colleague can be here?" This is entirely for the benefit of the parties to the litigation, who may have their witnesses, documents, counsel, solicitors and everybody necessary there.
There was, I am bound to tell your Lordships, a clause dealing with this subject in the 1956 Bill which was rejected in another place. There the matter was dealt with differently because it enabled the Disciplinary Committee to say, "We are going on hearing this with only two, unless either of the parties objects". That is a much more embarrassing statement, I think your Lordships will agree, to be put to an advocate than the statement proposed to be put under the clause as drafted in this Bill.
Clauses 21 and 24 say that an application to reinstate a solicitor who has been struck off or suspended may be heard by the Disciplinary Committee, with an appeal to the Master of the Rolls, instead of its being made directly to the Master of the Rolls as is the case under the present law; and I believe the Master of the Rolls sees no particular objection to the use of that procedure.
That is all I have to lay before your Lordships upon the Bill as it stands, but there is one final matter I think I ought to mention. That is a decision which has recently been come to in your Lordships' House, sitting in its Judicial capacity, in the matter of Brown v. Commissioners of Inland Revenue. That in form was a tax case and it came from Scotland; but, none the less, in spite of those two disadvantages it has led to a decision which is binding on all solicitors everywhere. It is a very awkward decision, I am bound to tell your Lordships, because, while entirely accepting the decision of the House of Lords in its Judicial capacity, the profession is in this position: that it cannot carry out the law. It is not practicable to carry out the law. As things stand, there is an impasse: the law says do one thing; practice says that
1126
it is impossible to do it. It arises out of the question of what is to be done with interest earned at the bank on clients' money held in the clients' account if it is put on deposit and earns interest.
I should like to pray in aid what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Upjohn, said about this matter in the course of his Opinion:
"I reach this conclusion with some regret. The practice whereby a solicitor uses his clients' money, too small in individual amounts or held for too short a time to make an individual investment worth while in the interest of the client, but which in the aggregate amounts to a large floating sum, to earn interest for him is an entirely innocent and common sense practice which harms no one and probably indirectly benefits the general body of clients."
Unfortunately, in view of what your Lordships' House was constrained to say, if interest is earned in those circumstances the most elaborate calculations must be made and the interest apportioned among the various interests. This is not practicable and I will ask your Lordships at a later stage to consider a clause which I hope will remove the impasse between a perfectly right decision, one which is accepted throughout the profession as right, and a perfectly impossible practical situation. It is a situation which certainly ought to be resolved, and I shall give your Lordships the opportunity of doing it at a later stage in the Bill. I am not going to keep your Lordships any longer. I hope that I have adequately explained the main provisions of this Bill. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.——(Lord Tangley.)
5.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, for the way in which he has expounded the provisions of this Bill. I must confess, and I think your Lordships will agree with me, it is not easy to perceive, just from reading it, what its effect will be. I fully appreciate that the way in which it has been drafted will make the task of consolidation very much more easy, and it is obviously drafted in that way in contemplation of the possibility that a Consolidation Act will follow shortly after this Bill reaches the Statute

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Book, as indeed happened in 1957. I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor may perhaps be able to say that the process of consolidation of this Bill, when it becomes an Act, with the 1957 Act can be, and will be, very speedily accomplished.
The Bill deals, as the noble Lord has made clear, with a wide variety of matters. But before I comment on any of those I should like to pay a tribute to the Law Society, who have the responsibility, subject to Parliament, for managing the affairs of solicitors, upon the way in which they have tackled these difficulties and are seeking to bring the law in relation to solicitors up to date, not only for the purpose of providing better training and education for the young man and facilitating learning of the expertise of the profession, but also, as this Bill proposes, for extending the benefits to the public and the security of clients of solicitors. I give my support, for what it is worth, to the provisions contained in the Bill. There are, however, one or two of them on which I should like to say a few words. I will deal, if I may, with the subjects in the same order as the noble Lord dealt with them.
He dealt first with education and training, and I think he made out an overwhelming case for replacing the present statutory conditions with regulations. Regulations permit of much more flexibility; they are far easier to change. I listened with interest to the noble Lord's observation—I cannot quote his words—when he said that he did not think that the right answer had yet quite been found. It is a continuous process. As new developments take place, as new burdens are cast upon lawyers by what happens in this House and in another place, so the process of education and the system of training must constantly be reviewed and brought up to date. I think that the provision of regulations instead of statutory conditions is an important change and will aid in that respect.
I have always been keen—I have said so on a number of occasions in your Lordships' House—on seeking to develop not only a modern but, so far as possible, a common system of education between the two branches of the profession, so that those who first became solicitors might, if they thought
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that the other branch was more suitable to their qualities, fairly easily have changed to that branch, and vice versa. I believe and trust that the replacement of these statutory conditions by regulations may perhaps help that, too, to be accomplished.
The noble Lord drew attention to the possible amendment of Clause 6, which he said might be construed as enabling the Law Society to refuse to grant a practising certificate. I cannot express any view upon that—I have not myself considered the point—but what I should like the noble Lord to do, if he is considering an amendment to that clause, is to consider another point in relation to it which gave me a little concern. Under that Clause 1t is possible to refuse the grant of a certificate without conditions not only on the first application of a newly-admitted solicitor, but on subsequent applications by him, if he has not held a practising certificate free of conditions since the date of his admission. That is Clause 6 (1) (b). I do not for a moment suggest that the Law Society would do it, but if I understand the matter correctly, year after year and for an indefinite period a newly-admitted solicitor might be refused a certificate free of conditions. I am sure that is not the intention and that that would not be done, but I believe it would be an improvement of this clause to insert some limiting period for the imposition of conditions of that kind in respect of the newly-admitted solicitor.
I am not suggesting that there should be any limit prescribed in the other cases to which that power applies, but I think the case made out for this in relation to newly-admitted solicitors was the fact that they can now manage to qualify in two and a half years; and that does not give them sufficient practical experience. I am sure that it is right and proper in their own interests to provide that they cannot act on their own and go into partnership immediately upon admission until they have had that practical experience, and I trust that it would be an improvement in this Clause 1f, when he comes to consider amendments, the noble Lord would put down a limit in relation to newly-admitted solicitors for the time during which the practising certificate must be subject to conditions. I hope

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that the noble Lord will not take my suggestion in any way amiss; it is put forward merely with a view to improving the Bill.
I turn to the Compensation Fund. Here again, I should like to pay a most sincere tribute to what the Law Society have done. I think they have set a great example to other professions which handle clients' money. It is a great thing that this Compensation Fund should be contributed to, and indeed be totally provided, by other members of the profession. On; naturally hopes that the claims upon it will always be few, and that in the course of years they will be reduced. But it is the fact, as I think a great many of us know, that unfortunately from time to time that fund has been called upon to meet, and has had to meet, substantial liabilities. I think it is most remarkable that the noble Lord is in a position to say that any admitted claims have been paid in full.
I do not think that any of your Lordships will take the slightest objection—at least, I trust net—to the Bill's containing this power to impose a levy to replenish that Fund should that necessity unfortunately arise. Again, I do not think that anyone would have anything but praise for the fact that the Law Society, on their own initiative, are coming forward with a proposal to extend a power to pay out of that fund where there has been a loss because of undue and unexplained delay upon the part of the solicitor. I do not propose to say much about the fee in relation to practising certificates. Quite clearly, the need for an increase of the fee has been made out, and I have no doubt that the Law Society will keep the fee as low as they possibly can having regard to their other commitments.
I should like now to turn to what the noble Lord referred to as "the preventive provisions". Again I have no doubt that they are fully warranted. On reading the Bill I felt somewhat concerned about the particular provisions in relation to the solicitor acting on his own—I refer to the provisions which apply in the event of his death and as to control of the solicitor's practice. On first reading of the Bill they look to be somewhat drastic; but then one realises that the only effect of what is provided for here is to make the Law Society, as you might say, the partner of
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the single solicitor at the moment of his death: and the automatic partner, the Law Society, then acts as a partner. I think that these provisions are right, fully justified and desirable in the public interest and in the interests of the clients of that solicitor.
I, too, felt considerable concern about Clause 15. Under paragraph 7 of the First Schedule, to which that Clause 1s tied, the High Court Judge is given a drastic power. Paragraph 7 reads as follows:
"The High Court or a judge thereof may, on the application of the Society, order that no payment shall be made without the leave of the High Court or a judge thereof by any banker named in the order out of any banking account in the name of the solicitor or his firm."
That is a drastic and a far-reaching power. I have no doubt that "the High Court or a judge thereof" would not exercise that power unless the case was a serious one and the need for its exercise was fully warranted. I must say that I fail to see why, if that power is exercised by the High Court, it should also be treated as constituting an act of bankruptcy, and. as the noble Lord has said, it may be without there being any insolvency on the part of the solicitor. So it was with some considerable relief thai I heard the noble Lord say that on the Committee stage he may move to omit that clause from the Bill. I do not think that it is necessary for me to say anything with regard to Clauses 21 to 24.
I should like to say one word about the final matter to which the noble Lord referred, the decision in Brown v. The Commissoners of Inland Revenue. He told us that is was not practicable to carry out the law as laid down in that case and that he would come forward with a proposal to relieve the impasse due to the present impossible, impracticable situation. I do not quite know what it is he has in mind. If it be to reverse the effect of that decision, I dare say that may prove to be a somewhat controversial clause, because there is at present a Bill before another place called the Clients Money Accounts Bill which applies to accountants, architects, auctioneers, business transfer agents, estate agents, travel agents and so on, and which, at a cursory glance, would seem to me to follow the line of the decision in Brown v. The Commissioners of Inland Revenue in relation to those professions.

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I mention that Bill because perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, would wish to consider its provisions. I do not know how far it has got. It is a Private Member's Bill. But, obviously, any proposal to deal with that case is something which would have to be very carefully considered. But I hope that we shall be able to find a way, without arousing much controversy, in which a solution can be found to the problem to which the noble Lord has referred.
That is all I wish to say on the Second Reading of this Bill. It is a good Bill, a thoroughly beneficial Bill, and, in my belief, a much more important Bill to a great many people than one would realise from reading what it contains for just the first time. I wish it well, and I congratulate the Law Society on its production. It must have necessitated a very great deal of work on the part of the Law Society's staff, and, to my mind, they have produced a Bill which we should do our best to assist in getting upon the Statute Book.
5.23 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: I should like to join with the noble Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, in congratulating both the Law Society on having introduced its Bill, and the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, on the way in which he has explained its rather complicated and somewhat discursive provisions. It gives me particular pleasure to congratulate Lord Tangley, because he referred to the fact that he was articled fifty years ago; and so was I. We were fellow students at the Law Society and, I hope I may say, we were friends—at any rate, we knew one another. If we at that time had forecast that he would one day be introducing, on behalf of the Law Society, a measure in the House of Lords dealing with the solicitors' profession, and that I should be supporting him, I think that we should both have been accused of extreme fantasy, and a good deal more. But here we are. Since those days the noble Lord has distinguished himself, not only in the field of law but in many other fields. He has been a member of the Council for many years and President of the Law Society, neither of which distinctions I myself have ever achieved. He comes here with very high credentials, and certainly he has
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explained this Bill with all the clarity of which he is capable.
The Law Society has taken a great deal of trouble about this Bill. It is the result of a committee which was set up some time ago to deal with a number of matters which required legislation, and I think in the main, though not in all cases, they have sought to implement the recommendation made by the committee. I feel that the Law Society and the legal profession are very often misunderstood. Very few people realise that legislation which they seek to introduce—and we are very much more closely governed and administered, I think, than any other profession which exists—is for the benefit of the public as a whole.
I have often heard in this House, which ought to know better, but certainly outside it, that when we support a particular piece of legislation we are doing so because it is complicated and helpful to the profession and will create work for them. Nothing could be further from the truth. No 1mportant firm of solicitors desires to make money out of seeking to interpret a complicated piece of legislation. If I may impart a secret to noble Lords, the litigation which most solicitors engage in is the least profitable part of their practice. Indeed, in my own case we make a slight loss on our litigation. Therefore, the last thing we want to do is to increase it or welcome it. I say, with emphasis, that there are very few professions which are more public-spirited and more eager to do the right thing by the general public than the legal profession, and I think that this Bill is an example of it.
The noble Lord, Lord Tangley, referred to a number of provisions in the Bill and divided them into four sections, I will try to do the same. The first section with which he dealt was that dealing with training. I agree with him and with the noble Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, that life has become so much more complex, for there is so much more legislation dealing with business affairs and with the relationship of the public with Government and so on, that it requires a far greater and wider knowledge and understanding of affairs, and that this should be reflected in the training of solicitors. I agree also that this is a changing matter and that it is certainly far more convenient that any changes in the training

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and education of solicitors should be by way of regulation rather than by introducing legislation from time to time for that purpose. The caveat I should like to enter is that we need a constant flow of articled clerks into the profession. I think it is true to say that at the present time the profession is undermanned. We need more solicitors and, therefore, we need more articled clerks. So we want to do nothing which will discourage solicitors from taking on articled clerks.
It is quite true that in the days of the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, and myself, before a clerk could become articled he had to pay a very heavy premium, heavy stamp duties and fees, and that during the whole time of his articles he received no remuneration. To-day that is out of the question: a premium is practically unheard of, and virtually all articled clerks get some remuneration. Indeed, in many cases they get an ordinary salary. But it must be recognised that during the first part of their articles they do not earn their salary. They know very little about the profession and can be of very little help, and their work is bound to be of a menial character. Towards the end of their articles they leave their firm altogether and go to the Law Society, where they are at present engaged full-time in training. So the amount of time that they are able to devote to the service of the firm to which they are articled is limited.
I would ask the Law Society to be very careful about still further limiting the time of service which an articled clerk can give to his firm and, ipso facto, to the amount of practical training he is able to get, because the best training is with the firm for which he is working. If the Law Society are so going to amend their regulations and system of training as to cause the articled clerk to give less time and service to the firm, I think they will find that more and more firms will become reluctant to accept articled clerks at all. It is already—and I speak from practical experience—a considerable inconvenience to find that an articled clerk to whom you have given a good deal of responsibility, who is able to conduct minor matters with slight supervision, suddenly has to go off to the Law Society, leaves all his matters unfinished, to be passed on to somebody else, and probably never returns. By the time he has completed his course his articles have
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come to an end. So this is a question which requires very careful consideration, and I am sure that the Council of the Law Society will give it.
Another point that I want to make on the question of regulations is that, as the Bill stands, it is contemplated that regulations will be used to a far wider extent, and they will have to be approved by the Lord Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls and the Lord Chief Justice. Of course, one could find no more appropriate body to approve these regulations than those three gentlemen. But I should have liked to see a solicitor also concerned in approving the regulations; somebody who has had practical knowledge and experience of the regulations which it is proposed to introduce. After all, these three lawyers have spent the whole of their working lives in another profession. They have no knowledge or experience of the workings of a solicitor's office or of such questions as training. Not only would it be better if a solicitor were involved; it would also give greater confidence to the profession to know that the difficulties of the solicitor's profession were appreciated in approving the regulations.
My other point about the regulations is that I hope that in every case where it is proposed to submit these regulations for approval the profession will have the fullest opportunity of discussing them and of approving them, and that any proposals they may make in connection with these regulations will be taken fully into consideration. I have no doubt that that will be so, but I want to emphasise that, unless there is complete and full discussion and understanding of the proposed regulations by members of the profession, there will not be the general support of them which one hopes they will carry,
I should like to express my complete agreement, as I have done before, with the noble Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, about common training for both solicitors and barristers. I am sure that would be of mutual advantage. This matter has been mooted for a considerable time, but I do not know what steps have been taken to bring it about. I should like to go even a little further, though I do not know whether I should carry the noble Viscount with me, because I appreciate how difficult barristers are about even having a cup of tea with a solicitor, let alone entering a solicitor's office. I think it might do a barrister some good if he were

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able to spend a little time in a solicitor's office as part of his training. That may be too revolutionary, but I think it is worth considering. I hope that when the discussions take place about the common training of the two professions it will be taken into account. Some six months in a solicitor's office, towards the end of his training when he might be of some use, would certainly be an advantage to the proposed barrister.
On the question of compensation, of course I fully support the giving of full compensation out of funds provided by members of the solicitors' profession to victims of solicitors' defalcations. I am a little less certain about compensation for delay, negligence, physical or mental incapacity and so on. I think there is some responsibility upon the client to ensure that he goes to a solicitor who is reputable and competent to carry out his business. I know that some clients are ignorant and think there is not much to choose between one solicitor and another. It may be true that a client who has a small matter will go to the nearest solicitor, especially if he does not have a regular one, and that nearest solicitor may turn out to be one of the people in the category I mentioned. But if a person has a really important matter to deal with, I think there is a responsibility upon him to make some inquiries and to go to somebody reputable, and not to go to a one-man firm where, perhaps, if the solicitor falls ill or meets with an accident, the whole of his practice may go to pieces. Therefore, I am not so sure about full compensation in those cases. I would not actively oppose it, but I think it is worth considering whether some distinction should be drawn between the one case and the other.
I should like to say one word about the disciplinary procedure of the Law Society—and here I hope that they will not take it amiss if I say that in my opinion, in their desire to enforce ethics and the best practice among solicitors, they have tended rather to lean over backwards. That is the impression I have. I am very fortunate: I have never had to come before them, so I have no personal interest. But the impression I have gained, from reading a number of cases, and from hearing a number of experiences, is that they have been a
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little more severe than the justice of the case has sometimes required. If I might respectfully suggest it, a little humanity and a little appreciation by the Disciplinary Committee of the difficulties of solicitors when dealing with disciplinary matters that come before them might not be amiss. For instance, I agree that a solicitor should put clients' money into a separate account. But something may go wrong; and, so long as there has been no defalcation, this is not, in my opinion, a matter which is necessarily a case for striking a solicitor off the Rolls. I do not say that that would be done in all cases, but I believe that there is a case for combining justice with mercy, and I hope that the Law Society Disciplinary Committee will be a little more merciful in some of the cases they have to deal with.
Finally, there is the question of Brown v. Commissioners of Inland Revenue. I appreciate the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Dilhorne. This would conflict with a Bill which is at present before the House, which I believe was prepared in the days of the last Government and which the present Government are carrying forward. I think that is so.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I think the Bill is a Private Member's Bill.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): In the other place.
LORD SILKIN: Then my point does not arise in that form. But the fact remains that I think it is a Bill that will command a good deal of support. Certainly we know that a great many estate agents collect deposits and presumably put them on deposit account in the bank, but never account either to the purchaser or to the vendor for the interest. And there are many other cases of that kind.
While I can see the difficulty, in practice, of paying out to each client the exact amount of interest which his particular money has earned in the relatively short period it has been in the solicitor's possession, I cannot see any difficulty, assuming that the solicitor pays all monies of that kind into a deposit account, in paying the client the average interest earned, whether it is one per cent. or two per cent. for the period during which the money has been in the possession of the solicitor. That would be a

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compromise; and if, somehow, that could be provided in the clause which it is proposed to introduce, I think that might well be the solution to the problem.
It is only right to say that I do not think this interest belongs to the solicitor; and it certainly does not belong to the bank. The only person to whom it can possibly belong is the person on whose behalf the money is in the hands of the solicitor. If the only difficulty is that of calculating the amount of interest to which he is entitled. I would suggest that a rough-and-ready practicable method of giving it to him would be either to lay down that interest at bank rate, or something of that sort, should be paid for the period in which the money is in the solicitor's hands, or to stipulate some arbitrary figure. At any rale, the client should receive the amount of interest which the money has earned.
My Lords, I have dealt with some Committee points, just as the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, did in introducing the Bill. I am sure that this Bill will have a very close scrutiny. Although it is not a Bill of general interest, it deserves the closest scrutiny, and I hope that it will receive a Second Reading.
5.47 p.m.
LORD DENNING: My Lords, in my capacity as Master of the Rolls I have an inherent jurisdiction over solicitors—indeed, rather a paternal jurisdiction. So much so, that the Master of the Rolls has been said to be the father-in-law of all solicitors. As there are 20,000 practising certificates issued, one sees what a large family it would be. But in this capacity I have, of course, studied this Bill closely, and I should like to add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, for his very lucid exposition of it. It is really a modernising Bill, in which the Law Society bring themselves in line with the conditions of to-day. I am thinking particularly, at first, of the education provisions. As Master of the Rolls, I have still to admit every solicitor to the Rolls. I have to certify as to his education and his fitness. In this regard, the new trend away from articles towards a university degree in law plus practical training is the way forward in line with most professional qualifications.
One word about the Bar and common examinations. Of course, very different
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from solicitors, members of the Bar do not come under any Parliamentary regulation; whereas solicitors, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, are perhaps under more statutory control than any other profession. But I am glad to say that there is now sitting a joint committee of members of the Bar and of the Law Society with the very object of considering an easier interchange between the two branches of the profession, whether by common examinations, towards which quite a lot has been done, or in any other way. I hope that before long that committee will produce practical results, because I am sure that everyone concerned with the profession will realise the advantages of easier interchange, whereby a solicitor who is better fitted to be an advocate can become an advocate, or vice versa.
There is only one other matter I would comment upon, and that is the disciplinary procedure. At the moment, every application for restoration from a solicitor who has been struck off the Rolls comes before me and I consider whether or not he should be restored to the Rolls. I hope—and I have tried to follow the precepts which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has mentioned—to exercise a little humanity in the matter, so that after a time, if the man has really rehabilitated himself, he can be restored to the Rolls. I hope and think that none of the solicitors whom I have restored have ever failed. In the Bill, it is proposed that that jurisdiction of mine should be altered in this respect: that in future the application should first go to the Disciplinary Committee for them to exercise their views and decision on the matter, and that from there there should be an appeal to me. That, I think, would be a help; because I should like to know what are the views of the Disciplinary Committee, the people who struck him off, on whether he should be restored or not, before the power is exercised by me on appeal.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask this question? Would it come before the noble and learned Lord on appeal; or would he have the final word merely acting on the advice of the Disciplinary Committee?
LORD DENNING: As I understand the Bill, it would come before me on appeal, so that I could decide it as a Judge of

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Appeal, and could reverse it and take a different decision from that of the Disciplinary Committee.
The other matter which remedies a crying injustice and which has been mentioned is this. Hitherto a solicitor's clerk could be condemned equally with the solicitor, if he had been a party to the solicitor's fault. There was a case a few years ago where a solicitor had been guilty at fault and suspended for three years, and after his three years' suspension he was restored to the Rolls and regained his reputation in the City of London. But nothing could be done to help the clerk. He could not get employment with any solicitor except by the permission of the Law Society, so every time he wanted a job his past had to be brought up by reference to the Law Society. The Divisional Court commented on that. They said they hoped it would be remedied. Under this Bill, it will be. The solicitor's clerk, equally with the solicitor, can go before the Disciplinary Committee and ask, so to speak, for his character to be cleared: and, again, if they refuse there is an appeal to me as the Master of the Rolls.
I will not go further into the detailed provisions, but, having regard to the very clear exposition by the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, I would say, in my own personal examination, that I would commend the measure to the House as being a very wise, modernising and improving Bill.
5.53 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think that all those of us who have had much concern with the Law Society have always been impressed by the energy and efficiency with which they carry on their task, and by their evident concern, in the interests of the public, to maintain the traditions of their very old and great profession. As the object of this Bill is to increase their facilities for that purpose, the Government welcome it—very much, if I may say so, for the reasons given by the noble and learned Lord, the Master of the Rolls.
There are one or two relatively small points on certain clauses that I would mention. Clause 6, as drafted, would, I think, enable the Law Society to refuse a certificate altogether; and I gathered from what the noble Lord, Lord Tangley,
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said, that that was not the intention. If so, no doubt he will think it right on Committee stage to put down an Amendment to make the position clear.
Secondly, I should like to associate myself with what the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, said with regard to the number of different applications in relation to which conditions might be imposed. As I understand it, the object of this provision is that if there is a young man who has just qualified but has not had sufficient practical experience to make it desirable for him to start straight out on his own, he can have a condition to that effect attached to his practising certificate. That may be quite reasonable in circumstances of that kind; but I would suggest for the consideration of the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, that that power should be limited, say, to the first two applications.
Clause 14, I suggest for his consideration, will not do. I need not trouble your Lordships with it in detail, but I suggest that its object could be achieved by an existing power—namely, by making use of Section 162 of the Judicature Act. I need not go into this point in greater detail, because, as the noble Lord knows, the Law Society, as I understand it, would quite accept that position if some practice direction were issued setting out the conditions under which a grant made under that section would be made; and I believe that something of that kind is under consideration. It may well be that by the time we come to the Committee stage some agreement to that effect will have been made.
I must also agree with what the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, said in relation to Clause 15, which provides that if the solicitor's bank account is frozen this is to be treated as an act of bankruptcy. It has always been the essence of an act of bankruptcy that it involves at least prima facie evidence of a debt; and the bankruptcy law is based on a question of debt. I have had the advantage of discussing this matter with the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, and I know that he well understands the objection. I think I ought to make it plain that the Government would feel bound, if necessary, at the Committee stage to press for that clause to be deleted.
The only other clause on which I need say anything is Clause 20. It provides

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that, with the consent of the solicitor in question, the Disciplinary Committee can be constituted of two members, instead of three. I would say, with a fair amount of experience of appearing for both sides before that Committee—not, I hasten to add, in the same matter—that my experience was rather in line with that of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. If there is any criticism to be made, it is that it is a body which tends to be extremely severe, and sometimes gives the impression that the members of the Committee are all very big solicitors who do not always fully understand the conditions of work of the small solicitor struggling with a small staff on his own.
I would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, that in a great profession like this, a Disciplinary Committee of three is, in any case, an extraordinarily small one. When one thinks of the size of the General Medical Council, or of the Benchers of the Inns of Court or the Professional Conduct Committee of the Bar Council, three seems a very small number on which a man's whole future should depend. I recognise the good intentions of saying, "Well, if one of the three has been held up because the traffic lights in Trafalgar Square have gone off, why can we not get on with two?", but I can see some disadvantage.
Any advocate who was asked if he would agree to the proceedings being continued with two would always feel difficulty in saying "I would object," because he would imagine that it would prejudice those who were there against his client. He would suppose their attitude would be: "Blast this man who is going to keep us all this time!" In such a case the advocate is under considerable restraint and, more or less, in practice is bound to say that he agrees. It is a matter for consideration, I suggest, whether the intention in fixing the number at three was that that should be the minimum number for a proper tribunal. If that is so, then it is not really right to say to the man whose whole future depends on the views of these people, "If we cannot in certain circumstances give you the proper tribunal, have you any objection to an improper one?" For those reasons, three ought to be the minimum number.
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I am sure we shall all be extremely interested if the noble and learned Lord is going to provide us with the proper solution to the case of Brown v. Commissioners of Inland Revenue. If he does, I think it would be the quickest period in which a decision of your Lordships' House, in its judicial capacity, had been overruled by a Bill in your Lordships' House in its legislative capacity. I know it will raise great difficulties, but I think the only advice I can properly give, without going into details, to the noble Lord, Lord Tangley, is not to pay undue attention to the suggestion that there is some other Bill which is likely to achieve this result.
Finally, with regard to common education, I should like to associate myself, if I may, with what the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, said. I think that a great many of us have both thought and said for a long time that to a considerable extent the education of the intending solicitor and barrister ought to be the same. The Law Society and the barristers have for a long time supported this, but, for some reason, one just does not seem able to get it done. For my part, I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Viscount said. Therefore, while there are one or two matters on which the Government may wish to express a view on Committee stage, for the reasons I have given the Bill is one which I would ask the House to accept on Second Reading.
6.3 p.m.
LORD TANGLEY: My Lords, may I express my sincere gratitude to your Lordships for the sympathetic and kind way in which this Bill has been received? May I also thank noble Lords who have said kind words of the Law Society? They are nonetheless welcome because I believe them to be justified. May I also thank noble Lords who have made suggestions as to how this Bill might conceivably be improved?
I will first of all take up the point raised by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack about Clause 20. This clause, as I have said, is inserted entirely with the interests of the parties in mind, There are cases where there are a lot of books, witnesses, counsel and solicitors all ready, and a solicitor coming from the North or from Wales is held

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up. As it stands at the moment, there is nothing for it but adjournment. With respect, I accept what the noble and learned Lord said about the embarrassment to which an advocate might be put if asked the question, "Do you object to our going on?". I can well understand that. I have had that question put to me over and over again and know how difficult it is. But that is not the question that will be put under the clause as drafted. It would require this question to be put: "Which would the two parties prefer, to go away and throw away the day's proceedings or to go on before two?". It may only be for one or two hours until the third man turns up. This is a matter put forward entirely in the interests of the parties. I do not regard it as a very important one and I certainly will be prepared to consider it further when we come to the next stage of the Bill.
Curiously enough, I observe that the clauses which have been criticised, not only by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack but also by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, are the exact clauses about which I myself was not very happy; and I said so in my speech. Clause 6 is the first one. I am not happy about the drafting of this clause. I think it wants looking at; but what is intended is that, for the first three years, the Law Society should not have the right to refuse a certificate but should have the right to attach a condition that the holder should not practise alone or in partnership. I think that the drafting of the clause gets nearer to that than might at first appear. But that is the intention, and I will certainly look at it again before Committee stage to see that the intention is properly carried out in the Bill.
May I say how much I welcome the remarks that have been made by several noble Lords about the conversations between the Law Society and the Bar? They are proceeding now more quickly than they have in the past, principally because some of the constitutional difficulties of negotiation have been removed by the Bar. I must confess, though I did not mention it in my speech, that I had very much in mind the possibility of facilitating such discussions as are going on, if we had the power in the Law Society to make regulations rather
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than having to hold things up until we thought it proper to make another claim on Parliamentary time. That is an additional reason, in my own mind, why it would be proper to substitute regulation entirely for a mixture of regulation and Statute.
As one would expect, the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, raised a number of practical points, with all of which I think I agree. Certainly we do not want to stop law students from having proper practical training in the office. For many years I was chairman of what was then called the Articled Clerks' Committee of the Council of the Law Society, and I seem to have spent a disproportionate part of my life in trying to get a quart into a pint pot, so far as legal education is concerned. One must have a proper knowledge of the law, which involves academic training; one must have some practical experience of suitable length in an office and one must have a final examination which is a fairly difficult thing, because, after all, a solicitor is let loose on the public when given his practising certificate. Somehow or other, as I said in my speech, we have to get all this through before a man reaches middle age. If we had ten or fifteen years in which to do all these things it would be easy, but we have only five or six, and it is not so easy. But I assure the noble Lord that the Law Society is just as keen as he is that the practical training should be given as much emphasis as is possible, having regard to the difficulties I have mentioned.
Certainly the profession would be consulted about all these matters. I think there is a better system of consultation now between the Council of the Law Society and the general body of the profession than there has ever been before, owing to the perfecting of the system of local law societies. They used to be called provincial law societies, but one of the provisions in this Bill, which I did not think it necessary to mention, changes the name to local law societies. The reason is that there are two or three in Middlesex, and I am afraid I cannot be heard to say in this House that Middlesex is part of the Provinces any longer, particularly after the statement made on behalf of the Government this afternoon.

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There is nothing to prevent Bar students from coining into solicitors' offices for some months. We have had them in our office in the past, and it has been quite successful. I do not see chat there is anything against it. Once they have become barristers, then the quarantine provisions come into effect.
The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, about the Compensation Fund is, if I may say so with respect, not quite justified by the wording of the clause. It may be that I was not sufficiently clear in explaining it, but the additional condition under which a grant can be made out of the Compensation Fund does not involve any kind of delay or negligence, but only unexplained delay in paying the money due to a client, which is a much narrower thing than the noble Lord had in mind.
I am sorry to hear that there is some thought that the Disciplinary Committee is unduly severe. Certainly the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, of a man who has been guilty of a breach of the accounts rules, though, somehow or other, the client has not suffered, I regard as a very serious offence. If we once relax and let it be thought that a man will not get into trouble for a breach of the accounts rules unless somebody suffers loss, then you might just as well tear up the accounts rules. I hope that the Disciplinary Committee, however merciful it may be in other respects, will never give way on the essential necessity of maintaining the full integrity of the accounts rules and the rules about handling clients' money.
That leaves me to deal with the question of Brown's case. If I may say so, I think the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack rather overstated what I promised the House I would do at the next stage. I do not think I promised to find a solution. What I said was that I would give the House an opportunity of considering a solution. That is not necessarily the same thing, although I hope that in the end it may turn out to be the same thing. The real trouble is that you
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get a solicitor in practice who has a large number of small amounts that come in from clients. Some may be in for weeks, some may be in for many days and some may be in for one or two days; and the monies will be coming in and going out for various purposes. Any one of those amounts, individually, could not be put on deposit at the bank. It would be impossible to put them on deposit, and they could not possibly earn interest. It is only because they are agglomerated with a great many more that the solicitor can do this.
If he had to work out exactly how much interest had been earned by each particular client, it would entail an impossible amount of work. The sort of result to the client would be an additional charge in the Bill: "To working out the amount of deposit interest due to you, 10s. 6d. Less deposit interest, 6½d. Minus tax at the standard rate, 4d., 2½ d. Total bill, 10s. 3½d." It is not practical politics to segregate these tiny sums in the cases where they are on deposit for a short time. Where you have a rather large sum on deposit for a reasonable time it is the practice of solicitors to account for the interest and pay it to the client concerned. We feel that we ought to try somehow to find a solution to what is a very practical problem, so vividly described by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Upjohn, in the passage from his Opinion which I quoted. I repeat that I am grateful to the House for the reception given to this Bill. I think it is a good Bill, and I am very much comforted to have had that confirmed by so many noble Lords.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; and read 1a.
  THE RAMSAY WILLIS COMMITTEE REPORT
  THE RAMSAY WILLIS COMMITTEE REPORT
  LEGISLATION AFFECTING FIREARMS
  LEGISLATION AFFECTING FIREARMS
  THE M.4 MOTORWAY
  THE M.4 MOTORWAY