Sitting of 20 December 1965

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES

    Leasehold Reform
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will give an assurance that educational trusts will not be excluded from his proposed legislation dealing with leasehold reform.
    The Minister of Land and Natural Resources (Mr. Frederick Wiley): I must ask my hon. Friend to await announcement of the Government's proposals.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend saw whether it is the Government's intention to issue a White Paper before the Bill is presented to Parliament and whether we might have an opportunity to debate that White Paper? Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that there will be very few exemptions, such as the one which I have indicated in the Question, since otherwise there might be trouble from this side of the House?
    Mr. Willey: I am aware of my hon. Friend's views, but he must await an announcement by the Government. The question of a debate is not for me, but I can say that it is hoped to issue a White Paper early in the new year.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: While dissenting from the desire of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) to discriminate against education, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give serious consideration to the suggestion which the hon. Member has made that
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    there should be a reasonable interval between any White Paper and legislation so that there may be an opportunity for debate?
    Mr. Willey: That is certainly a matter which I will bear in mind. As I have said, the question of a debate is not for me.
    Mrs. Thatcherasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources when he expects to publish the Bill dealing with leasehold enfranchisement.
    Mr. Willey: It will be in this Session, but I cannot yet give a date.
    Mrs. Thatcher: If the Minister cannot give a date, will he consider making a statement shortly about who will be able to purchase the leasehold and at what price, because it is over a year since the original announcement was made?
    Mr. Willey: Yes. As I have already assured the House, the Government will issue a White Paper early in the New Year.

    Wash Barrage
    Mr. Derek Pageasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what steps he is taking to expedite a decision regarding a feasibility study on the Wash barrage.
    Mr. Willey: I hope to have the advice of the Water Resources Board on the consultant's report on the water resources of the Great Ouse Basin fairly early in the New Year. We shall then consider the next steps.
    Mr. Page: Can my right hon. Friend give any further indication of exactly when he will be in a position to make a decision? Will he expedite this matter, bearing in mind the terrific impact which any such scheme would have on the economy of the whole area?
    Mr. Willey: I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that we ought to wait first for the advice of the Water Resources Board.
    Mr. Derek Pageasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether he will discuss with the East Anglian Regional Economic Planning Council the desirability of a feasibility study of the Wash barrage.
    Mr. Willey: I would certainly consult the Council before putting a feasibility study in hand, but it would be premature to do so at this stage.
    Mr. Page: I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he bear in mind the tremendous impact that any such scheme would have on the economy of the whole of Norfolk, which badly needs extra industry? Will he also bear in mind that this body is the only one that is capable of taking into account all the economic circumstances?
    Mr. Willey: Our primary concern is with water, but, of course, we have to take into account the other factors.
    Sir D. Rentonasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether the preliminary report by consultants of the storage potentialities of the Wash has yet been received; and whether he will make a further statement about this scheme.
    Sir G. de Freitasasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what progress has been made in the studies of the possibility of damming the Wash to create a reservoir by holding back water from rivers such as the Witham, Welland, Nene and Ouse, in order to provide fresh water for use in the dry counties of the East Midlands and East Anglia.
    Mr. Willey: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government has received the report of the consulting engineers, Messrs. Binnie and Partners, on the water resources of the Great Ouse basin. The report recommends further study of a number of possible conservation schemes, including the use of the Wash as a reservoir. My right hon. Friend and I have asked the Water Resources Board to consider the report in the context of their studies of the South-East as a whole and to advise in due course what action should be taken on it.
    Sir D. Renton: Is not it clear from the report which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned that the sooner the Wash is impounded the more farmland will be saved from flooding and the greater the scope for water storage? Therefore, in consultation with the Minister of Housing and Local Government, will the right hon. Gentleman press on with this matter as hard as he possibly can?
    Mr. Willey: I appreciate what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said. This is not altogether clear. We have to consider the Wash in the context of the other proposals made and of proposals which might be made about a reservoir in the Wash, but first of all we should have the advice of the Water Resources Board.
    Sir G. de Freitas: Can my right hon. Friend say when a feasibility study is likely to be started, in view of the enormous importance of this matter not only to Norfolk and East Anglia but to the East Midlands?
    Mr. Willey: We are considering this as expeditiously as we can; but first we have to await the advice of the Water Resources Board, which I am sure will deal with the matter as quickly as it can.

    Countryside (Amenities)
    Mr. Bessellasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether, when he is preparing legislation affecting access to, or control of, amenities in the countryside, he will ensure that those who farm the land are brought into full consultation and co-operation both in the framing of the legislation itself and in the creation or alteration of administrative machinery.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Land and Natural Resources (Mr. Arthur Skeffington): My right hon. Friend will, of course, discuss his proposals with all those affected by them. He will certainly consult the National Farmers' Union among others, but cannot depart from normal practice in these consultations.
    Mr. Bessell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that there is considerable unrest in view of the Minister's statement about proposed legislation on common land and rights of way? May we take it that this will not take place without prior consultation with the interests concerned?
    Mr. Skeffington: My right hon. Friend has already had considerable correspondence and also consultation with the National Farmers' Union. I do not think that the Union is unduly alarmed by any of the proposals, but if the hon. Gentleman has any point in mind I shall be glad to consider it.

    Land Commission Levy
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether, in calculating the yield of the levy foreshadowed in Command Paper No. 2771 at £80 million a year, he took into account reductions in the yield of other taxation; and whether he will give his estimate of such reductions, with separate figures in respect of each particular tax or duty.
    Mr. Willey: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) on 29th November.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Surely the Minister knew when he gave that Answer whether the figure he gave was intended to be gross or net. If he knows that, perhaps he can tell us now.
    Mr. Willey: As I have frequently explained, the figure is a gross figure.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what reduction he calculates would result in the yield of the levy forecast in Command Paper No. 2771 if the sale of owner-occupied houses were exempted from the imposition of the levy.
    Mr. Willey: It is impossible to say because of the wide variety of circumstances in which an owner-occupier may realise development value. Paragraph 31 of the White Paper, in fact, makes appropriate provision for exemption. The sale of owner-occupied houses, of course, normally will be exempted from levy, which only arises where there is a prospect of development or redevelopment.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that paragraph 31 of the White Paper deals with a different situation, that of someone who seeks to build a house to be owner-occupied on land which he owns? If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the Order Paper, he will see that my Question relates to the sale of an owner-occupied house. Is he aware that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made an exception in favour of owner-occupiers in respect of Capital Gains Tax? Cannot the Minister be at least as liberal as his right hon. Friend?
    Mr. Willey: The right hon. Gentleman will, I think, appreciate that there is a difference between capital gains and development levy. As to the value of a house, it is immaterial for the purposes of development value how great is the appreciation in the value of the house. We are concerned here with development value on development or redevelopment.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is not the Minister aware that one of the great incentives to a young couple to undertake heavy obligations to obtain a house is that they are getting a capital value which is of importance to them? Surely he can consider, when redevelopment takes place, making the same exception to encourage owner-occupation as his right hon. Friend the Chancellor has been sensible enough to make?
    Mr. Willey: I can only point out again that there is a difference between the owner of a house being exempt from taxation on the value of his house. We have to consider, among other things, the possibility of his having to acquire another house. Development value is a matter which we can pursue when we discuss the Bill in Standing Committee. I find it difficult to envisage cases in which one could make an exception concerning development value.
    Mr. Corfieldasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will take steps to ensure that where, at the date of publication of Command Paper No. 2771, land is subject to a compulsory purchase order which has not been confirmed, but to which the owner has agreed not to make objection, no levy will be payable as a result of the ultimate compulsory acquisition of the land.
    Mr. Skeffington: I must ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the Bill.
    Mr. Corfield: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that even where a landowner is perfectly willing to negotiate, a compulsory purchase order offers considerable advantages to a local authority and that it is surely wholly unjust that he should be penalised by delay caused by his co-operation with the local authority.
    Mr. Skeffington: I have considerable sympathy with the case that the hon. Member has in mind. I hope that when

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    he sees the Bill, we may be able to arrive at some conclusion.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware, incidentally, that this and many other points are preventing land from being brought forward for development and preventing progress in the building programme? Can he not answer questions of this sort at least in order to secure that the supply of land is maintained?
    Mr. Skeffington: I am not at all aware of the point made by the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Corfieldasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will make special provision whereby the erection of agricultural buildings or dwelling-houses for farmers or farm workers shall not make the owner of the land liable to payment of the proposed levy envisaged in the White Paper, Command Paper No. 2771.
    Mr. Skeffington: Paragraph 27 of the White Paper states that levy will be paid only on value attributable to the prospect of material development and the footnote on page 6 explains that material development will be defined by regulations. It will be possible, therefore, to deal with any special problems that arise in regard to agriculture by regulations.
    Mr. Corfield: May we take it from that reply that the hon. Gentleman intends to provide for this special problem bearing in mind the folly of taxing capital investment in farmland, which is obviously in the interest of the nation?

    Forestry Commission Land (Hunting)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources why he encourages stag-hunting and fox-hunting on Forestry Commission land in the Quantocks rather than using other methods of control.
    Mr. Willey: I neither encourage nor discourage stag-hunting and fox-hunting, which are traditional in this area. A ban on hunting on Commission land would have no material effect on hunting in the Quantocks.
    Mr. Lipton: Is it not deplorable, and, indeed, scandalous, that the Government
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    should exploit the revolting pastime of stag-hunting for the purpose of animal control on this part of the Forestry Commision's estates? Will he not reconsider this decision in view of the fact that on other estates of the Forestry Commission, he introduces his own staff who follow much more civilised and humane methods of animal control?
    Mr. Willey: Of course. I will certainly reconsider it, but we have to leave the Forestry Commission to follow rules of good estate management. The question of blood sports as a whole is, of course, a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary.

    Norfolk Broads
    Mr. Hazelasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether, in view of the demand throughout the area of the Norfolk Broads due to the present unsatisfactory position, he will take steps to set up a consortium of local bodies as suggested in the Report of the Nature Conservancy on Broadland.
    Mr. Willey: I understand that the main local bodies concerned are already working on these general lines. I welcome this initiative. My right hon. Friend and I have instructed our regional staff to give assistance wherever it is required.
    Mr. Hazell: In thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him to contact the Norfolk County Council to see whether it will bring these bodies together at an early date to prevent further spoliation of the area of the Broads pending legislation which, I hope, he will introduce in due course to make the area an area of recreation?
    Mr. Willey: I will have a word with my right hon. Friend. The county council has not yet expressed an opinion about this matter.

    National Parks Act, 1949 (Access Agreements)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will cause a review to be made of the need for additional access agreements under Part V of the National Parks Act, 1949.
    Mr. Willey: I propose to ask local authorities to review the need for more

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    access agreements and to encourage them to make more use of their powers where it is shown to be necessary.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: While welcoming my right hon. Friend's reply, may I ask whether he agrees that big changes have taken place since the last review and that it is desirable that some kind of mandatory action should be taken so that the whole matter may be reconsidered?
    Mr. Willey: There are, I think, two things in particular that we should do. One is to encourage the use of existing powers and the second, as I have already said, is to reconsider the provisions in the Act.

    National Parks (Advisory Committees)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will revoke the directions for the appointment of advisory committees in Snowdonia, Exmoor, Yorkshire Dales and Brecon Beacon National Parks and appoint joint boards for their administration.
    Mr. Willey: No, Sir. I am sure that the planning authorities concerned will seriously consider the advantages of joint boards, but my right hon. Friend and I would hesitate to override their considered opinion.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Does not my right hon. Friend understand that there has been great controversy on this matter, that if he were to take the advice of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield) he would act in the way suggested in the Question and that there is a wide measure of agreement that the present arrangement of advisory committees merely holds up action?
    Mr. Willey: As my hon. Friend is aware, I have expressed my opinion strongly in favour of joint boards. We should, however, wait and see how far we get with persuasion. Certainly, we should not antagonise the authorities but should wait and see how they respond.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: I beg to give notice that in view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

  PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS

    Foreign Office (New Building)
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals he has for a new building to house the Foreign Office.
    The Minister of Public Building and Works (Mr. Charles Pannell): The proposals are as outlined in my statement of 3rd November.
    Mr. Campbell: Is the Minister giving high priority to this matter, as it is generally agreed that the present building is inconvenient and unsuitable for offices?
    Mr. Pannell: Nothing that the hon. Member has said so far is as strong as I opined from the benches opposite and have confirmed during my time in office. We have given this matter the highest possible priority. As I have said, we hope as soon as possible to appoint a first-class architect in private practice, with Sir Leslie Martin as the overall planning consultant.
    Mr. Robert Cooke: Does not the Minister agree that the present Foreign Office is a slum largely due to overcrowding? Will he consider providing another building on the other side of the road to provide for the vast amount of office accommodation that is required and then reorganise the interior of the existing building?
    Mr. Pannell: As to the question about the other side of the road, we are looking into that one. But I do not agree with the hon. Member about the Foreign Office itself. I do not think that it is capable of that sort of treatment. This is a view which was taken by my predecessor and the former Government. When I came into office, I went through the whole question de novo, took a great deal of advice and came to the same conclusion. When the two Front Benches are in such agreement, who is the hon. Member to quarrel?

    Water Distillation Plants
    Mr. Costainasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will list the water distillation plants, with their individual capacity, for which his Department is responsible, together with the starting and completion dates.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Public Building and Works (Mr. James Boyden): I will, with per-

    DISTILLATION PLANTS

    Location

    Starting Date

    Completion Date

    Capacity (gallons per day)

    Ascension Island (3 Distillers)†

    …

    …

    March, 1964

    June, 1966

    2×21,000

    1×9,000

    Cyprus (Dhekelia)†

    …

    …

    November, 1962

    May, 1965

    334,000

    Gibraltar:

    Glen Rocky

    …

    …

    —+

    1942

    34,000

    Mediterranean Cave

    …

    …

    —+

    1945

    34,000

    Rosia Bay

    …

    …

    —+

    1951

    34,000

    N.A.T.O. (East Side)

    …

    …

    —+

    February, 1961

    210,000

    Middle East:

    Sharjah (4 Distillers)

    …

    …

    June, 1963

    June, 1964

    4×8,000

    Masirah (2 Distillers)

    …

    …

    April, 1963

    November, 1963

    2×8,000

    In addition the following electrodialysis plants are operated to provide potable water:—

    Location

    Starting Date

    Completion Date

    Capacity (gallons per day)

    Middle East (Bahrein Islands):

    Muharraq (2 Plants)

    …

    …

    December, 1964

    August, 1965

    2×6,400

    Hamala

    …

    …

    May, 1962

    March, 1963

    3,000

    Jufair

    …

    …

    December, 1961

    November, 1962

    5,000*

    Cyrenaica (E1 Adem) (3 Plants)

    …

    …

    —+

    December, 1961

    16,000

    —+

    September, 1962

    22,000

    —+

    September, 1963

    22,000

    * Two further plants under construction, due to be completed by early 1966, will increase capacity to a total of 15,000 gallons per day.

    † Combined electricity generating/water distillation plants.

    + Precise starting dates not available.

    Service Married Quarters Overseas
    Mr. Costainasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will list the married quarters for service personnel overseas which are at present under construction, together with the completion of married quarters for the years ended September, 1964 and September, 1965, respectively.
    Mr. Boyden: As the list is long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Costain: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him if he can state whether since the Ministry took over the building of these married quarters from the Service Departments, there has been a speed-up in building?
    Mr. Boyden: Only 34 were built in the year ending September, 1964, whereas in the year ending September, 1965, 1,023 were built.
    Following is the list:
    mission, circulate a list in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the list:

    SERVICE MARRIED QUARTERS OVERSEAS

    1. Under Construction (Total 282 quarters)

    Gibraltar

    12 Naval Officers' quarters

    Aden

    64 Soldiers' quarters

    Sharjah

    1 Army Officer's quarter

    Hong Kong

    66 Soldiers' quarters

    West Berlin

    88 Soldiers' quarters

    Wildenrath, West Germany.

    24 Airmen's quarters

    Singapore

    5 Gurkha Officers' quarters

    22 Gurkha Soldiers' quarters

    2. Completed in year ended September, 1964 (Total 34 quarters)

    Aden

    18 Naval Ratings' quarters

    16 Army Officers' quarters

    3. Completed in year ended September, 1965 (Total 1,023 quarters)

    Wildenrath, West Germany.

    12 Airmen's quarters

    Gibraltar

    96 Naval Ratings' quarters

    86 Soldiers' quarters

    80 Airmen's quarters

    Aden

    23 Army Officers' quarters

    208 Soldiers' quarters

    Cyprus

    35 Army Officers' quarters

    44 Soldiers' quarters

    60 R.A.F. Officers' quarters

    196 Airmen's quarters

    El Adem

    101 Airmen's quarters

    Singapore

    1 Naval Officer's quarter

    6 Gurkha Officers' quarters

    70 Gurkha Soldiers' quarters

    Malaya

    5 R.A.F. Officers' quarters

    The above figures exclude hirings and purchases by the Ministry of Defence.

    Quantity Surveyors (South-Western Regional Panel)
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilsonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many firms of quantity surveyors are included in the South-West Regional Panel of Public Building and Works private quantity surveyors; how many of these firms have offices in Cornwall; and on what basis these firms were selected.
    Mr. Boyden: There are sixty-two firms of quantity surveyors included in the South-Western Region Panel and six of these firms have offices in Cornwall.
    The firms were selected according to size and experience on the basis of the information given in their applications.
    Mr. Wilson: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that, provided quality is maintained, there is a national advantage in diversifying the location of the firms on the panel because quantity surveyors add the cost of travel from their headquarters to the site in order to inspect, and for distant parts of the country the item may be substantial?
    Mr. Boyden: My right hon. Friend has abolished the ballot system of putting names on the panel. Any firm which is competent and adequate can now be put on the panel.

    The Arts (White Paper)
    Mr. Robert Cookeasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement on the progress which he has made with the projects concerning his Department in the White Paper, A Policy for the Arts, the First Steps, Command Paper No. 2601; and what plans he has for the second steps.
    Mr. Boyden: With permission, I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Cooke: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a most disappointing reply, and an evasive one? Obviously, his Department has no intention of cooperating with the Minister for the Arts in this matter.
    Mr. BoydenIn view of the pressure to get through Questions quickly, I think that the House would have thoroughly
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    disapproved if I had given the longer Answer, which will be in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many historic buildings in his charge have been adapted as arts centres and what research has been done into building techniques for temporary structures for the arts? Surely the hon. Gentleman can tell us some of these things.
    Mr. Boyden: It is these specific points which have been dealt with shortly. In any case, this Ministry will be first on the list next time for Questions, and the specific points can be tackled then.
    Following is the statement:
    So far as museums are concerned, projects included in the twelve year programme are proceeding as planned, notably the reconstruction of the Western Sculpture Galleries and Central Hall at the British Museum and expansion of the Imperial War Museum. A contract has recently been let for reconstruction of the Mausoleum and Assyrian Galleries at the British Museum and another will be let next year for the Museum's photographic studios.
    Grants for Historic Buildings in Great Britain are expected to show some increase over the figure for last year.
    More pictures and pieces of sculpture have been purchased for diplomatic buildings overseas, official residences and Government offices. They include two notable sculptures by Mr. Henry Moore and Miss Barbara Hepworth. For the scheme for purchasing and distributing lithographs I would refer to the reply given to my hon. Friend, the Member for Barking on October 26th, 1965.
    Special sculptural, decorative and landscaping work in connection with the Ministry's building programme has been applied over some 90 projects in the last five years.
    Future action in the field of the arts includes the planning of the British Museum Library, extensions to the Tate and National Galleries, the reconstruction of the east and west wings at the Royal Scottish Museum, and the modernisation of the public restaurants at various museums as opportunity arises. As regards the preservation of historic buildings, the purchase of pictures and sculpture, and the artistic treatment of buildings, the present policy will be continued and developed as far as possible within the funds that can be made available for this purpose.

    Parliamentary Building, Bridge Street (Architectural Competition)
    Mr. Robert Cookeasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he proposes to accept the winning

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    entry of the architectural competition for the parliamentary building on the Bridge Street site, or whether he reserves the right to seek further designs in the event of the competition entries proving unsatisfactory.
    Mr. C. Pannell: I must, like any other Minister, always reserve the ultimate decision for Parliament.
    Mr. Cooke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is a most disappointing reply? Can he tell us who has decided what shall go into the buildings, whether plans will eventually be presented to a Committee of this House, and what negotiations are now going on to decide how the matter should be tackled?
    Mr. Pannell: In saying that I should always reserve the ultimate decision for Parliament, I envisage that Parliament will set up proper machinery to receive the necessary information. The hon. Gentleman knows from professional experience that this is a very complicated matter, and these professional and technical considerations are not capable of snap answers.
    Mr. Hogg: But will not the right hon. Gentleman reflect that, although the method of competition for individual building has the appearance of fairness, it is now slipping out of use as a means of selecting the best building designs throughout almost the whole of public and private industry?
    Mr. Pannell: I have been seized of that very considerably. The difficulty here is that if we are to discover any new architects it will have to be by means of a competiton. I do not want to refer to the trends in the architectural profession at the present time but we would hope to have the sort of competition which would satisfy everybody and guard against the trends about which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is thinking. It is no use the right hon. and learned Gentleman wagging his head about the matter. I have to apply my mind to it; he does not.

    Whitehall Plan
    Sir H. Kerrasked the Minister of Public Buildings and Works what representations he has received for a public inquiry into the proposals for the redevelopment of Whitehall.
    Mr. C. Pannell: A deputation from the Civic Trust led by the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys); the Ancient Monuments Society; and the Westminster Society, who have suggested the alternative of a Royal Commission.
    Sir H. Kerr: Since the Whitehall area is the special responsibility of Parliament, and, therefore, not subject to the normal processes of inquiry, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that every aspect has been adequately studied, such as accessibility to the proposed precinct for Members of Parliament and the proposed waterside tunnel under the Terrace?
    Mr. Pannell: With respect, the hon. Gentleman has made a paraphrase of the statement which the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) made to me when he came on the deputation. I can only say that all these things are taken care of. I have always made it clear that I have never ruled out inquiries into later phases of the scheme, and I hope to announce one of these before very long. For the present, bearing in mind the failure of previous inquiries, the fact that they have not fructified but have just been laid to rest, it seems to me that what is called for now, to get the scheme off the ground, is one or two firm decisions to stick by, and this we are doing.
    Mr. Chichester-Clarkasked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will reconsider his decision not to hold a public inquiry into the implementation of the Whitehall Plan.
    Mr. C. Pannell: No, Sir, but I am prepared to contemplate inquiries at the appropriate time into certain longer-term aspects of the plan. For the present, as I said before, we need certain firm decisions as set out in my statement of 3rd November.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: While I recognise that the Minister is being a little more flexible today than he was with the Civic Trust—which we welcome—may I ask him why he is being so coy? Why does he not tell us more about the long-term approaches?
    Mr. Pannell: I have not been coy. I looked this up. As far back as last July I indicated that I did not rule out certain inquiries. I have made that perfectly clear all the time, and I think the hon.

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    Gentleman will agree with that. On the question of the phases of the plan, we have mentioned second steps. I cannot go through them all now because the Speaker would be after me. However, we are almost ready to announce the third phase.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the right hon. Gentleman be a little clearer as to which phases of the plan are the ones into which he contemplates the possibility of further inquiry? Can he be precise? Does it mean, for instance, the Foreign Office site? Does it mean the redevelopment of Whitehall itself, or the Treasury building?
    Mr. Pannell: The right hon. Gentleman is working round the wrong way. Firm decisions have been taken on the Foreign Office, the Bridge Street site, the Parliament building and the necessity for a precinct, and we have an inquiry into what one can call the tunnel road. What we have in mind there is an inquiry based on the whole of the Broad Sanctuary site.
    Mr. Sandys: The right hon. Gentleman has said that he considered that firm decisions have been taken in regard to the Foreign Office and the two buildings which it is proposed to put on the Bridge Street site. On the principle of creating a Parliamentary precinct and a tunnel road, I do not think that, except for the Foreign Office, this is a very controversial issue. I should have thought there was a good deal of agreement about that. However, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the other aspects of the plan will be subject to inquiry? That is what we want to know.
    Mr. Pannell: Broadly, yes. However, I would say—this is the difficulty—that it is no use having long-term inquiries into what will happen 10 or 15 years ahead when the treatment of traffic in London may be subject to all sorts of control. All I am saying is that as far as I can see all these things will be phased off, given a certain time scale, and that there will be the fullest possible inquiry.

    Winter Building
    Mr. Channonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will make a statement about winter building.
    Mr. Boyden: Winter building pays.
    Mr. Channon: While I am most grateful for that very informative Answer, may I ask the hon. Gentleman what progress he has made in persuading others of the truth of his statement?
    Mr. Boyden: Very considerable, but still more progress can be made. We shall welcome the hon. Gentleman's assistance in persuading people that a great many elementary things can be done which will increase their profits, to the advantage of everybody.

    Building Materials (Winter Supplies)
    Mr. Channonasked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has made of the rise in the supply of building materials during the winter months.
    Mr. Boyden: Plasterboard is the only major material with a long delivery date. Supplies of this material are being increased, and should meet demand by the spring of 1966.
    Mr. Channon: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has not answered my Question? I asked what he estimated would be the rise in the supply of building materials during the winter months. Would he not agree that stocking of these materials above a certain amount is very uneconomical? Is it not worrying that stocks have reached their present level already?
    Mr. Boyden: Plasterboard is the only main material which is in serious shortage difficulties, and that is what hon. Members opposite are usually asking about.
    Mr. Costain: As the hon. Gentleman has already said that winter building nays, does he appreciate that stocking of bricks does not?
    Mr. Boyden: Neither does the stocking of bricklayers.

  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Death Grants
    Miss Quennellasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether she will review the death grants available to the more elderly retirement pensioners.
    The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Margaret Herbison): I assume that the hon. Lady has in mind the provisions for death grant which were made in 1948 in relation to people who were then within ten years of pensionable age. These form part of the transitional arrangements made on the introduction of the new scheme, and I do not think it would be appropriate to review them now.
    Miss Quennell: Is the right hon. Lady not aware that, in the intervening period, there have been considerable changes in costs and that certain anomalies have become apparent? Since this worries some of the pensioners, will she reconsider it?
    Miss Herbison: The whole question of death grants for the more elderly was examined by the National Insurance Advisory Committee in 1956. The Report of the Committee clearly said that these transitional arrangements were generous and concluded that there was no sufficient reason to recommend any further concession. In response to the letter the hon. Lady sent to me, I examined this matter again very carefully but came to the conclusion that the advice given by the N.I.A.C. still holds good today.

    Widows' Pensions
    Mr. Pounderasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) what plans she has to reduce the 50-year entitlement age for widows' pensions; and if she will make a statement;
    (2) if she will introduce legislation to provide pension eligibility for non-contributory widows; and if she will make a statement on the review of this subject which is in progress.
    Miss Herbison: As announced in the Gracious Speech, proposals in respect of widows' allowances will be brought forward in this Session. As regards other forms of widow's benefit I can only say consideration of them is proceeding as part of the review of social security provisions on which the Government are engaged.
    Mr. Pounder: While I thank the right hon. Lady for that reply, may I ask whethe7 she is not aware that the cost of reducing or even abolishing altogether the entitlement age would be appreciably
    1674
    less than the surplus in the Insurance Fund as at the last quinquennial date? Will she view this suggestion sympathetically, as the present position causes a great deal of hardship to widows?
    Miss Herbison: The position of widows under our National Insurance Scheme is, in general, full of anomalies and in our general review the Government will certainly regard them as sympathetically as possible. However, I should not like the hon. Gentleman to think that the Insurance Fund is there only for widows. What is to be done in the next five years has been made quite clear.
    Mr. Tiley: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the legislation enacted a year ago with regard to widows—which we all welcome—has made the position more unfair as it affects widows generally and that there is now a greater need for a speedy review of their position?
    Miss Herbison: It is true that we helped the 10s. widow considerably last year and I think that that was generally welcomed in the country. The position of the other widows and the anomalies involved are included in the Government's general review.

    Retirement Pensioners (Christmas Bonus)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) if she will give a Christmas bonus to those who are retired and over 65 years of age and who are not in receipt of a National Insurance pension;
    (2) what would be the cost of providing a Christmas bonus for old people on the same basis as was provided last year.
    Miss Herbison: A repetition of the special payments made to people over retirement age last year pending the introduction of higher rates of National Assistance would cost £5¾ million. It was never intended that these payments should be a regular feature of the National Assistance scheme, either for pensioners or for non-pensioners.
    Mr. Ridsdale: As both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have refused to answer this Question, will the right hon. Lady say how it was that the Government were able to afford the payment last year but that,

    1675
    after a year of Labour rule, we are not able to put forward this small increase to a deserving section of the community?
    Miss Herbison: The answer is simple. This time last year, because of administrative difficulties, the old people had to wait until March for their increase payments. In view of that delay, and to ensure that they would not be without fuel and other things that they needed, the £4 payment was made. But I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be very pleased to know that the present pension in real value is 6s. 7d. above the level it was when the last increase was made by his own Government.
    Mr. Tinn: Does my right hon. Friend recall that the special payment was made necessary last year because of years of neglect and that the action she took was on her own initiative without prompting from hon. Members on the other side of the House?
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Does not the right hon. Lady remember that when in Opposition she constantly pressed for Christmas bonuses? Now that she is in a position to grant them, why does not she do more about it?
    Miss Herbison: When it comes to this time of the year and old people are still waiting for an increase it is right to press for such a payment. But I again stress that the actual value of the pension today, even although it has lost some since the increased was made, is 6s. 7d. more than it was when the last increase was made by the former Government.
    Mr. Lipton: Is it not better that the Government should pursue their present policy of increasing the weekly rates as quickly as possible rather than to give the occasional dollops or hand-outs made necessary by the neglect of the previous Administration?
    Miss Herbison: I agree with what my hon. Friend has said. As I have pointed out, if we consider the present value of the £ we find that the pensioners are now receiving an extra payment of £17 2s. 4d. and not the £4 that we paid before last Christmas.

    National Assistance (Rent Increases)
    Mr. Bostonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if she
    1676
    is aware that some landlords and their agents, in sending notices of rent increases to tenants, advise them to apply to the National Assistance Board for a grant to cover the increase or the whole rent, and that because of this advice, some tenants are being persuaded to pay increases which might not be payable if referred to a rent officer or rent assessment committee under the Rent Act 1965; and whether she will seek discussions with the National Assistance Board to deal with this practice by landlords and their agents.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Norman Pentland): The Board is naturally concerned that National Assistance recipients should not be persuaded to pay rent increases which are not properly payable under the Rent Act, 1965. They are instructing their officers to advise recipients on the action they should take in such circumstances.
    Mr. Boston: Will my hon. Friend accept that his Answer is warmly welcomed? One suspects that the aim of the notices, being sent round mainly to elderly people, is more to try to obtain rent increases which may be unjustified than to try to help persons obtaining National Assistance grants.
    Mr. Pentland: The position concerning the Rent Act, 1965, is that the National Assistance Board's local officers will advise a National Assistance recipient of the action he should take if his rent is increased and the larger rent demanded by the landlord has not been determined by the local rent officer. The Board's officers are being given guidance about circumstances in which recipients should be advised to apply to the rent officer for a fair rent to be determined.

  HOSPITALS

    Nurses (Overtime Pay)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of his agreement in principle to pay overtime rates of pay to doctors in the National Health. Service, he will apply the same principle to the payment of all nurses and student nurses.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Kenneth Robinson): Pay and conditions of service

    1677
    for nurses are matters in the first instance for the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council; but my hon. Friend has misunderstood the nature of the proposed new system of payment for general practitioners.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend tell me precisely what it is I have misunderstood? Is it not the case that the doctors have asked, and that the Minister has agreed in principle, that they shall be paid overtime rates? If that is the case—and even if it is not—will my right hon. Friend agree that there is some justification for the claim of the nurses, particularly the nurses, that all hours over the 42 per week should be paid by overtime rates?
    Mr. Robinson: There is no question of paying general medical practitioners overtime. Under the new contract which has gone to the Review Body for pricing, the doctor who continues as at present to be responsible for providing care of his patients throughout the 24 hours of the day will have his remuneration for nights and weekends separately identified. Overtime payments are already made to some nurses in psychiatric hospitals, but, by agreement of both sides of the Whitley Council, the tendency in recent years has beef to reduce the number of grades receiving overtime pay.

    Heatherwood Hospital, Ascot
    Sir C. Mott-Radclyffeasked the Minister of Health what information he has regarding the closing of the operating theatres and the surgery at the Heather-wood Hospital, Ascot, following the outbreak of gangrene; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. K. Robinson: There were five cases of infection, and the general and orthopaedic theatres were closed on 13th December. A full investigation is now in progress to establish the cause of the outbreak and the means of preventing any recurrence. In the meantime arrangements have been made for surgical cases to be dealt with elsewhere.
    Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: Could the right hon. Gentleman say how long the investigation is likely to take before he reaches any conclusions, and, secondly, whether the arrangements for using the
    1678
    theatres in the neighbouring hospitals are proceeding smoothly?
    Mr. Robinson: Yes, the arrangements are proceeding quite smoothly, and I should like to assure the hon. Gentleman that all five cases are progressing well. How long the theatres will remain out of use will depend on the results of the investigation, but I understand that it is hoped to reopen them in about a fortnight's time.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Haemodialysis (Fluoride-free Water)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Health what arrangements have been made to ensure that a supply of non-fluoridated water is available for use in haemodialysis.
    Mr. K. Robinson: None, Sir. I am advised that they are unnecessary.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that an expert body of medical opinion, supported by experimental data, has declared that fluoridated water can have a fatal effect in certain types of kidney disease? If my right hon. Friend has evidence which contradicts that, will he publish it?
    Mr. Robinson: Yes, Sir. I have evidence that experimental work has totally failed to show any hazard due to fluoride levels in the blood of an order which would result from haemodialysis in fluoridated water and no request for the supply of fluoride-free water has been received from doctors in charge of haemodialysis units.
    Mr. Lubbock: Was not a consultant appointed by the Ministry of Health, at the time of the fluoridation studies to investigate any complaints, coming from the areas concerned, of alleged harm due to fluoridation? After five years, was not that consultant still waiting for his first case?
    Mr. Robinson: That is quite correct.
    Mr. Rankin——
    Mr. Speaker: Point of order?
    Mr. Rankin: No, Sir.

    Local Authority Building Programmes
    Sir H. Legge-Bourkeasked the Minister of Health whether he will establish machinery whereby the building programmes of local authorities may be related to the hospital, nursing and maternity home, and other health services, to ensure that adequate facilities are available as and when the programmes proceed.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Charles Loughlin): My right hon. Friend has already asked local health and welfare authorities and hospital authorities to work closely together and with executive councils in formulating plans for the development of their services. It is for these authorities to take account of any building programmes which may alter the need for facilities for which they are responsible.
    Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider his Answer? Is he not aware that regional hospital boards are becoming increasingly concerned about this matter, especially because of the desire of many local authorities to have overspill populations brought into their areas which, when the hospital service is already overstrained, means even greater strain?
    Mr. Loughlin: When I first saw the Question I investigated whether there was any avenue with which my right hon. Friend had not dealt for ensuring co-operation. The specific point mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, population changes, is taken into account.

    Old People's Homes (Sweets and Tobacco)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Health whether he will introduce legislation to prevent local authorities from withholding the weekly issue of sweets and tobacco from residents in their old people's homes.
    Mr. Loughlin: No, Sir. This is a matter for local authorities to decide.
    Mr. Hynd: Like all hon. Members, I am jealous of the rights and responsibilities of local authorities. However, could not my hon. Friend issue a circular to
    1680
    give advice? Does he know that Lancashire County Council is withdrawing the small allowance of tobacco and sweets which is made to these old people? Is not that a rather mean thing to do?
    Mr. Loughlin: I am not sure that I would want to ask my right hon. Friend to issue such a circular. A minimum pocket money allowance is made to old people in the homes which my hon. Friend mentions, but I am not sure that it is dignified, once the basic needs of the old people are met, to dole out sweets and tobacco.

    King Hill Hostel, West Mailing (Visits by Husbands)
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Minister of Health what arrangements have been made by the Kent County Council for visits by the husbands of families in the King Hill Hostel, West Malling, over the Christmas period.
    Mr. K. Robinson: The arrangements are as indicated in my reply to my hon. Friend, the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mrs. Anne Kerr) on 17th December.
    Mr. Lubbock: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that these arrangements are utterly inadequate and that the exception which is made for the Christmas period shows that there is no point at all in this rule? Will he seek to amend the National Assistance Act so as to require local authorities to provide accommodation for a whole family and not just a part of it?
    Mr. Robinson: I do not see any prospect of time for legislation to amend the National Assistance Act at the moment, but, as I indicated in the Answer to which I referred, I am not wholly satisfied with the present situation. It is clear that the short-term measures which the council has taken can provide the basis for further progress, given co-operation by all concerned.

    Disabled Patients (Mini-cars)
    Mr. Woodhouseasked the Minister of Health whether, in his consideration of the desirability of supplying specially adapted mini-cars to disabled National Health Service patients, in place of the

    1681
    single-seater tricycles now issued to them, he will give priority to those patients who also suffer from haemophilia.
    Mr. Loughlin: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend cannot determine priorities until he has completed his review.
    Mr. Woodhouse: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the number of vehicle drivers who are also haemophiliacs is very small, but that they are peculiarly vulnerable to the defects and inadequacies of the three-wheeler vehicle which is issued to them? Will the hon. Gentleman give sympathetic consideration—I know that he will—to any evidence which I send to him about this matter?
    Mr. Loughlin: I will always give sympathetic consideration to evidence sent by the hon. Gentleman, but his campaign itself spotlights our difficulties. He has mentioned one or two categories who ought to have special consideration, but other hon. Members offer other categories. This is a very difficult matter.
    Mr. Paget: Will my hon. Friend also give sympathetic consideration to the Bill which I am to introduce to provide him with the powers to do just this?
    Mr. Loughlin: I am not sure that I can give a complete assurance on that to my hon. and learned Friend at this stage.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is a very poor answer to say that he cannot help anybody because he cannot help everybody? Will he look at this whole problem?
    Mr. Loughlin: I do not say that I cannot help anybody because I cannot help everybody. My right hon. Friend is attempting to help with this vexed problem as far as he can, and immediately the review is completed we shall present proposals to the House.

    Doctors, Birmingham (Victimisation)
    Mr. Hattersleyasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that those Birmingham doctors who were recently appointed to fill general practice vacancies occasioned by resignations from the National Health Service are being victimised by a minority of their professional colleagues; and if he will seek
    1682
    powers to protect doctors from such victimisation.
    Mr. K. Robinson: I would strongly deplore any victimisation but I do not think that legislation would be either appropriate or effective.
    Mr. Hattersley: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he has had any request for assistance from the local health executive council corporately or from its members individually and what he has been able to answer to those requests?
    Mr. Robinson: I think that my hon. Friend is referring to reports about the difficulty of establishing a health centre in Newtown, Birmingham. There is a separate Question about that and I would like to wait until it is reached.
    Dr. Wyndham Davies: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that on this matter it is the Minister himself who is victimising certain general practitioners who have had the strength of mind and purpose to try to improve the National Health Service by resigning from the present unsatisfactory arrangements?
    Mr. Robinson: I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman's self-appointed rôle as spokesman for the Birmingham Action Group, but I hope that in considering these matters even he will put the interests of the patients of Birmingham first.

    New Health Centre (Birmingham)
    Mr. Victor Yatesasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the difficulties which have arisen regarding the establishment of a new health centre in Birmingham; and, in view of the need as expressed in a petition to the Birmingham City Council in November, signed by nearly 2,000 people many of whom reside in the Newtown area of the Ladywood constituency, if he will take action to enable the development of this health centre to proceed without further delay.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Yes, Sir. I regret that some doctors have declared themselves unwilling to work with their colleagues in the area, but this is for them to decide. Health Centre provision is a matter for the local health authority and I hope that they will still find it possible to meet the wishes of local residents.
    Mr. Yates: Is my right hon. Friend aware that while there is an urgent need for a health centre in the part of my constituency which has been developed, there is apprehension that such a centre will be delayed in that part of the area which is in course of development? Can my right hon. Friend approach the health department and the doctors, or take some steps to bring the two together to discuss the matter further?
    Mr. Robinson: I am in touch with all the parties in this matter and at this stage I will only say that in my view it would be most regrettable if this opportunity were lost to provide the well-equipped, well-housed and properly co-ordinated general medical service which a health centre can make possible.
    Dr. Wyndham Davies: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would be in the best interests of the ordinary patient in Birmingham and elsewhere if the facilities required by doctors to practise good National Health Service medicine were made available?
    Mr. Robinson: Yes, Sir, and the five doctors who have refused to work with the three who were appointed to vacancies have not made a very helpful contribution towards that end.

    Old People's Hostel and Houses (Norwich)
    Mr. Norwoodasked the Minister of Health what is the reason for the delay in approval for a scheme to build an old people's hostel and 30 houses at Foulger's Opening, Ber Street, Norwich.
    Mr. K. Robinson: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and I have now been able to approve loan sanction for this scheme.
    Mr. Norwood: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer will give very great satisfaction in the city?

    Drugs (Bonus Offers)
    Dr. Wyndham Daviesasked the Minister of Health (1) what basic price his Department is paying for Econocil-Vk brand of penicillin V. potassium BP, for which some pharmacists receive a bonus of 500 tablets free for every 1,000
    1684
    ordered from a firm whose name has been supplied to him;
    (2) what is his pricing policy for bonus offers to pharmacists supplying the National Health Service of Econocil-Vk, Butazone, Oxymycin and Furan supplied by a firm whose name has been given to him.
    Mr. K. Robinson: The price varies according to the size of the pack. I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    I have not found it practicable to take separate account of individual bonus offers but their collective effect is taken into account in reimbursing to chemists the costs of drugs, and I am keeping the matter under review.
    Dr. Davies: I presume the Minister is aware that this scheme could be used to by-pass his own scheme to reduce proprietary preparations given by pharmacists if they are unscrupulous pharmacists. I hope he will do all he can to discourage this type of thing.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a question.
    Following is the information:
    Basic prices for Econocil VK brand of penicillin V potassium B.P., according to the size of pack from which the prescription is dispensed:

    s.

    d.

    100 capsules or tablets 125 mg

    18

    3

    500 capsules or tablets 125 mg

    90

    0

    1,000 capsules or tablets 125 mg

    178

    0

    2 fluid ozs. syrup 125 mg per 5 cc

    3

    11

    100 capsules or tablets 250 mg

    36

    3

    500 capsules or tablets 250 mg

    180

    0

    1,000 capsules or tablets 250 mg

    358

    0

  MINISTRY OF LABOUR

    Nationalised Industries (Regional Wage Differentials)
    Mr. Higginsasked the Minister of Labour if, when intervening in wage negotiations in the nationalised industries, he will take steps to encourage the establishment of full regional wage differentials.
    Mr. Ernest Thornton: No, Sir. I am only called upon to intervene when there is a dispute and I do not regard it as part of my function on those occasions to urge changes in wage structure on the nationalised industries.
    Mr. Higgins: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that unless the Minister takes this kind of action we are likely to have an increase in inflationary disputes in areas where earnings are above the national average in similar occupations?
    Mr. Thornton: I would not agree with that statement. It is a very complicated issue. I know the hon. Gentleman's deep interest in it, but I am afraid we could not argue it by supplementary question and answer.

    National Wage Agreements
    Mr. Higginsasked the Minister of Labour what steps he proposes to take to eliminate the inflationary effect of national wage agreements.
    Mr. Thornton: This is one of the purposes of the prices and incomes policy.
    Mr. Higgins: But is it not a fact that the prices and incomes policy has failed completely to stop inflation in this country, and is it not high time that the Minister of Labour in fact co-ordinated with the First Secretary of State in order to establish full regional differentials?
    Mr. Thornton: It would appear that the hon. Gentleman seems to get some satisfaction out of what he calls the failure of the incomes and prices policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "No:]—but I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that the increase in weekly wage rates in the last 12 months is less than the increase in weekly rates in the preceding 12 months under the hon. Gentleman's Government. What has happened, of course, is that we have been involved in a hours reduction cycle, a cycle which comes along about every 10 years, and had it not been for that rises would have been much less.
    Sir K. Joseph: Yes, but is the hon. Gentleman not aware that there is widespread disquiet about demarcation—I will not say disputes—issues between the right hon. Gentleman the Minister and his right hon. Friend the First Secretary, and that my hon. Friend's Question is addressed to a very serious subject? We hope that the Government will concert their attitude to inflationary wage claims better in future than they have in the past.
    Mr. Thornton: The right hon. Gentleman's question is completely hypothetical and it is one which I do not accept for a moment. I think the prices and incomes policy will succeed, and my Ministry will make its contribution.
    Mr. Mawby: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that indeed no one on this side of the House gets any satisfaction from the fact that it appears that the prices and incomes policy is not working, and will he really apply his mind to trying to get rid of this apparent dichotomy between the First Secretary of State and the Ministry of Labour in finding a solution to this problem?
    Mr. Thornton: The exposition of the hon. Gentleman is again, I think, indicative of the hypothetical nature of these questions by hon. and right hon. Members opposite.

  UNITED ARAB REPUBLIC (BRITISH NATIONALS' PROPERTY)
  Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in discussions with the United Arab Republic Government regarding the release of re-sequestrated property of British nationals and the implementation of the terms of the Anglo-United Arab Republic Financial Agreement.
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Thomson): There have been recent discussions at the official level with the United Arab Republic authorities on this question. It would be premature at this stage to forecast their outcome or to set a date to their conclusion.
  Mr. Wall: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the Anglo-Egyptian Financial Agreement is not working, in that people are not being allowed to bring their personal property out of Egypt? Could he say whether there is any hope that people who have now been deprived of their property for four years will either receive compensation or have their property returned to them?
  Mr. Thomson: I appreciate the strong feelings which the hon. Member expresses. During my recent visit to the

  1687
  United Arab Republic I stressed to the authorities there the need to reach a final solution to this problem. I prefer not to go any further than my main Answer this afternoon.

  VIETNAM
  Mr. G. Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the Commonwealth Peace Mission for Vietnam.
  Mr. George Thomson: I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) on 14th December, 1964.
  Mr. Campbell: Is the Mission to be kept in existence indefinitely and has its continuing membership been decided?
  Mr. Thomson: On the first point, I have said I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister indicated. We still hope that an opportunity may arise for the Mission to fulfil a constructive rôle in the search for peace.

  RHODESIA
  Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs which of the countries which have a sizeable trade with Rhodesia have now undertaken to impose a trade embargo, and which have not.
  Mr. George Thomson: As the Answer is somewhat long, I shall, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Fisher: Could the hon. Gentleman perhaps give a general indication before we see this list whether it indicates whether sanctions are liable to be effective or not?
  Mr. Thomson: Yes, the response so far to the lead given by the Government in bringing economic pressure to bear upon the illegal régime in Southern Rhodesia is very satisfactory indeed, and reinforces our belief that it is possible, in fact, to produce the kind of changes there which we all seek.
  Following is the Answer:
  The following countries import more than £1 million worth of goods from Rhodesia:
  1688
  Australia, Belgium, Canada, Congo (Leopoldville), Federal German Republic, India, Italy, Japan, Malawi, the Netherlands, Portugal, South Africa, the United States of America, and Zambia. Zambia and Malawi are special cases. Of the others, with the exception of South Africa and Portugal, all of these countries which take significant quantities of Rhodesian tobacco or sugar have announced a ban on its import. The tobacco ban is therefore 90 per cent. effective.
  Many of these countries have also taken action against other imports from Rhodesia.

  ANGLO-ARGENTINE TRAMWAYS COMPANY
  Sir W. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in his forthcoming talks in Buenos Aires in mid-January, he will bring up the question of the shareholders of the Anglo-Argentine Tramways Company receiving compensation for the confiscation of their property, and interest on the sums due over a number of years, as confirmed by the Argentine Supreme Court last October; and if he will press for a satisfactory offer to be made by the Argentine Government.
  Mr. George Thomson: Subject to developments between now and my right hon. Friend's visit to Buenos Aires, my right hon. Friend intends to make inquiries about the progress of the negotiations and reaffirm Her Majesty's Government's interest in a satisfactory settlement.
  Sir W. Teeling: Will the hon. Gentleman remember that the Dutch oil companies—I think it is, or certain other countries—in the last few weeks have been given by the Argentine Government what they claimed in full, and will the Foreign Secretary be properly briefed as to what the offer should be for us and which we very much need?
  Mr. Thomson: Yes. My right hon. Friend is always fully briefed on everything.

  TRANSPORT

    Scottish Transport Users' Consultative Committee
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Minister of Transport if he will refer to the Scottish Transport Users' Consultative Committee the matter of the representations made to him by the hon.

    1689
    Member for South Angus for a report by them on the recording of the evidence taken before them.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler): I understand that the Committee are very willing to make appropriate arrangements for a record of any particular public hearing to be made available in response to any reasonable request.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Yes, but is the Minister aware that in order to obtain a hearing it is necessary for a member of the public to pay for a copy to be made of the transcript which is made by the T.U.C.C.? Would he not agree that a rather better method should be provided to enable the public to have access to the evidence submitted to the T.U.C.C.?
    Mr. Swingler: Well, it depends on the kind of record made. The Scottish committee makes records on tape, and I think that if the hon. Member approaches the committee it may be perfectly possible for him to obtain a copy he wants without payment. But it is matter between him and the committee.

  SCOTLAND

    Scottish Joint Council for Teachers' Salaries (Recommendations)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recommendations he has received from the Scottish Joint Council for Teachers' Salaries and what decision he has reached on these recommendations.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mrs. Judith Hart): I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which my right hon. Friend gave on 13th December to my hon. Friend, the Member for Renfrew, West (Mr. Buchan).
    Mr. Taylor: Is the hon. Lady aware that there is a great deal of unrest amongst the Scots and will she therefore say when the recommendations were given to her and what reply may be expected?
    Mrs. Hart: My right hon. Friend received them on 26th November. He is considering them most urgently and the
    1690
    regulations will be published as soon as possible.

  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Occupational Deafness (Report)
    Mrs. McKayasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to receive a report on occupational deafness, following the investigations now being conducted by the Research Unit on Deafness, King's College; and if the report will be published.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Anthony Crosland): I hope in a reasonably short space of time. A decision on publication will be made when the report is received.
    Mrs. McKay: Could my right hon. Friend consider extending this review? We would like to know why it is possible in the United States for industrial deafness to be scheduled for workmen's compensation but not in this country, and we should like to know if my right hon. Friend can extend the review.
    Mr. Crosland: I will certainly consider all those points.
    Dr. Wyndham Davies: Would the Minister also consider the rising incidence of occupational deafness occurring in this country? It is now a most serious disease which should be scheduled as an occupational disease.
    Mr. Crosland: Yes, Sir.

RHODESIA (OIL EMBARGO)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about the latest developments in relation to Rhodesia and Zambia, and in particular the imposition of an embargo on oil shipments to Rhodesia.
As I have repeatedly stated in the House, Her Majesty's Government were not willing to take action unilaterally on oil supplies; our position was that an oil embargo must be multilateral and likely to be effective. In addition, I referred to our very special concern for the safeguarding of oil supplies to Zambia.

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Discussions on both points were being actively pursued, and agreement with the United States Government was well advanced before I left for Washington last week. In my first talk with the President on Thursday afternoon last, we were able to set the seal on these arrangements and, as the House knows, a mission headed by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations was discussing the organisation of emergency oil supply arrangements with the Government of Zambia at the same time.
When we were clear on both points, the embargo and the airlift—that is, by Friday afternoon—it became possible to make the Order in Council prohibiting British subjects from supplying oil to Rhodesia and prohibiting the import of oil by Rhodesia. The United States Government welcome and support our decision, fully recognise the authority of Her Majesty's Government in this matter, and are advising all United States citizens and enterprises to comply with the terms of the Order in Council. We have also taken diplomatic action to seek the cooperation of the other main oil exporting countries.
I should add that I have heard today that the Governments of France and Italy are co-operating fully in the arrangements to stop the flow of oil.
Simultaneously, the Minister of State's mission has reached agreement on detailed arrangements to provide Zambia with alternative supplies of oil and on equitable arrangements for the financin2 of the agreed contingency measures. These consist primarily of an airlift of oil supplied to Zambia—and we have been assured of all appropriate support from the United States to make it effective—with the result that, when the illegal régime in Rhodesia took the expected step of refusing to maintain oil supplies to Zambia, the first British aircraft carrying oil supplies to Zambia was able to fly in yesterday, Sunday, to Lusaka. The airlift will build up rapidly in the next few weeks, but its success will depend on our receiving full co-operation both from Zambia's neighbouring African States and from other countries who are in a position to help with the transport of essential supplies to Zambia.
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It was for this reason that I was particularly glad to hear from the Prime Minister of Canada during my visit to Ottawa yesterday that the Canadian Government will be considering very urgently how far they can supply aircraft to reinforce the British and American effort.
I repeat that these measures are directed to one purpose only—the return of Rhodesia to constitutional rule—and they are essential to that end. They will mean great inconvenience and hardship, but they are essential if we are to get the quick solution which is needed to avoid much greater dislocation and hardship and if we are to avoid, too, the immeasurable dangers of outside intervention, whatever form they might take—dangers which I was able to sense and assess as a result of continuing exchanges that I have had with Commonwealth and other African countries and as a result of the almost irresistible pressures which are building up for still graver and more far reaching measures in the United Nations.
Mr. Heath: As we are to have a debate on overseas affairs today and tomorrow, may I confine myself to some factual questions to the Prime Minister? Firstly, taking his criterion of effectiveness, to what extent does he consider now that the arrangements that he has made will be effective? How will the United States enforce these measures, and to what extent will other Gulf producing countries take part in them?
Secondly, there have been reports from Washington that arrangements have been made by the President and the Prime Minister to deal with hardship in Rhodesia, particularly in the case of hospitals. Is there any substance in those reports?
Thirdly, to what extent is the supply to Zambia meeting its needs today, and how quickly will it build up?
Fourthly, can the Prime Minister give the House his assurance that these measures are intended to operate in the way in which he has so far announced, and not by military blockade?
Fifthly, is he aware that these measures emphasise particularly the need to state again and again the path by which Rhodesia can come back to legal constitutional government?
The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said.
On the question of effectiveness, he asked about the adequacy of United States enforcement. The United States Government are completely satisfied with the assurance that they have had from the American oil companies that they recognise our authority in the matter and will give full effect to the action that we have taken. There are still important supplying, countries from whom we have not had a final answer, and the Netherlands is obviously very important here. I have every reason to think that we shall get full co-operation. If that is not so, we shall have to consider what action can be taken to deal with any leakage there.
Secondly, on hardship, the right hon. Gentleman is quite right. I did raise this matter in Washington. A great part of the distribution in Rhodesia of the products of the Umtali refinery is in the hands of one company with whom we have some influence. It has distributed stocks all over the country, and we have asked it to do everything in its power to reserve supplies for hospital use—generating plants for hospital surgeries, for doctors, midwives, ambulance services and the rest.
Thirdly, he asked—and this is a question that we were most concerned with—about the speed at which the airlift and the mobilisation of surface means of transport to Zambia can meet all their requirements. It is a build-up. It will take time. The American planes, for example, have not yet crossed the Atlantic. Our first planes have started and are being powerfully reinforced, but the Americans have said that they will join us to make it effective, and we have hopes of planes from other areas. The limiting factor at the end of the day may be airfield capacity rather than aircraft, and we have given satisfactory assurances to Zambia about that.
Fourthly, the right hon. Gentleman asked about a military blockade. We do not contemplate that at this stage, because I believe that the combined effect of the boycott by certain powerful Middle Eastern oil producing countries added to the action of Governments who have important oil distributing companies under their control should be effective. If there should be any seepage or leakage by one or two spivs—and I gather that it
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is possible for spivs to invade the oil trade for the purpose of defeating the laws that have been made; I know that the former Attorney-General does not like the word "spiv", but that is how we would see any such action—we would then have to consider the matter in consultation with our colleagues in this.
Finally, the right hon. Gentleman said that it was important to state again and again the methods by which there could be a return to constitutional rule. I agree, and I did make a statement in the House a week last Friday. We have also had the valuable statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas Home). I agree with every point that he made as to the four points on which we should move forward, although it will be recognised that every one of those four points was turned down categorically time and time again by Mr. Smith. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman in his speech setting forth the detailed working out of the five principles, set out what both of us have in mind and, indeed, what we laboured incessantly to secure before 11th November.
Mr. Taverne: In the event of certain countries hindering or frustrating the oil embargo, will the Government consider promoting a mandatory resolution in the Security Council?
The Prime Minister: I said that if there is frustration of this we shall have to consider what action should be taken. At the moment this question is hypothetical. I do not think that we should try to envisage what measures would be appropriate and I was well aware during my visit to the United Nations last week that Chapter VII resolutions on any aspect of the Rhodesian question might have a habit of escalating.
Mr. Grimond: Is the Prime Minister aware that all those who think that effective steps must be taken to put an end to what is generally agreed to be a police State in Rhodesia will welcome the proposals which have been brought in at last, and will support them? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman two questions? First, do I understand that the American Government are making it mandatory on American oil companies not to send oil to Rhodesia? Secondly, if it is so important to get multilateral agreement for this

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embargo, why are we not raising it under Article 41?
The Prime Minister: I am glad that now all three party leaders have used the phrase "police State" about the Smith régime. It was used by the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) on 10th December. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said that we had brought in this measure at last. I would point out to him—he was very pressing on this, and I understand it, although it was difficult for me to answer at the time—that the talks which have led to this solution were very far advanced at the time he was raising it. I was not able then to give him details, but it shows that sometimes when we are being pressed we are not being more backward than those who are doing the pressing.
There are certain legal difficulties about the United States Government making orders forbidding their oil enterprises to frustrate the purposes of this Order, but I know that the United States Government are fully satisfied with the assurances which they have had from the oil companies.
I am not sure what was the last point.
Mr. Grimond: Raising it under Article 41.
The Prime Minister: That was the alternative way of doing it, and it had certain attractions rather than the somewhat flat means of an Order in Council denying importation, but, as I mentioned earlier, there are certain dangers in dealing with this by United Nations resolution, and Chapter VII language on this, confined to Article 41, might be one thing. What worries us is that there are dangers that this might escalate into other resolutions which would be much less acceptable to this House.
Mr. William Hamilton: Can the Prime Minister say whether the runways in Zambia are adequate to deal with the air-lifted oil? Can he say whether there has been any official reaction from Portugal or South Africa to the proposition which he has expounded this afternoon? Thirdly, will he indicate whether a naval blockade of Beira has not been ruled out in the event of the leakage to which he referred?
The Prime Minister: With regard to runways, it was this which I had in mind when I referred to the possible limit on the air-lift being airport capacity. Action is being taken to extend certain of the runways, but it should be remembered that we occupy a considerable part of the hard-standing on one airfield and part of another with the Javelin operation. At the same time, a lot of urgent action is being taken and we are providing a lot of money to improve surface transport, both road and rail.
With regard to South Africa and Portugal, we are in touch with both those countries.
With regard to the third point about a possible military blockade, I take it that my hon. Friend has in mind a naval blockade of Beira if there were leakages. I have said that this is quite hypothetical at the moment. We would have to consider what was the proper way of dealing with the problem if it arose. There are more ways than one. There are a lot of people, and some whom one would least expect, in Africa who have displayed a considerable gunboat mentality on this question during the last few weeks. Not all of them, however, have gunboats.
Mr. J. Amery: In view of the deep disapproval with which many people view the Government's decision, and in view of the Government's repeated assurances that Orders would be brought to the House as soon as possible, will the Prime Minister undertake that this Order will be brought to the House before Christmas so that those who wish to oppose it can have a chance to do so?
The Prime Minister: I had the great help when I was in the United States of seeing the Motion on the Order Paper from the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, which I am glad to say was treated with just about the right degree of importance we would all attach to it.
Hon. Members: Answer the question.
The Prime Minister: I was answering the preamble. The question of a debate in this House must be a matter to be pursued through the usual channels. The Government would like to get the affirmative Resolution in respect of the Order as quickly as possible to show the people of Rhodesia, one or two of whom

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still have vain ideas that the right hon. Gentleman represents real power in this House, where this House as a whole stands, but we recognise the difficulties in this last week before the Christmas Recess—the problem of the foreign affairs debate, and also private Members' time on Wednesday. I think that this is a matter to be pursued through the usual channels to see what best meets the convenience of the House as a whole.
Mr. Shinwell: Has my right hon. Friend observed that the storm with which he has been threatened during the last few days has failed to develop? May we have an assurance that the deterioration which threatens to destroy the Tory Opposition will not prevent him from seeking every possible means of bringing this affair to a successful conclusions?
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I have not had the chance to read the newspapers on the point made by my right hon. Friend and I do not think that it is really the main issue with which we are faced today. The main issue today is for this House to show that we are determined to bring this matter to a successful conclusion as quickly as possible, because the more quickly we can do this, the less will be the dislocation and economic hardship in Rhodesia, the less will be the bitterness in Rhodesia, the easier it will be to get economic reconstruction, which could be very quick indeed, and the easier it will be to get the tolerable constitutional situation to which the right hon. Gentleman referred a moment ago.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that we have had a good deal of experience in two world wars of naval blockades, and that any proposal to blockade Portuguese and South African ports would lead us into very dangerous straits indeed, and no doubt he will point this out to those African States which want to take instant and warlike action in this way?
The Prime Minister: I have said that the question of a possible blockade through the United Nations or in any other way really raises a very hypothetical question, and only if there were a serious frustration of the Order in Council would we have to consider that
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and a number of other alternative means of dealing with this situation.
What the right hon. Gentleman said about African States wanting to pursue warlike actions strikes something of a chord in my breast. I tried to make this point the other day in the United Nations, though they were not all listening—they were outside reading my speech—why we felt in this House that a military solution was not the right answer to this question.
Mr. John Hynd: I note my right hon. Friend's reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), but in view of the importance of this development, and in view of the solid support that we have had from the United States, France, and other allies, is it not equally important that we should know what is the attitude of the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition?
The Prime Minister: I think that that is a matter for the right hon. Gentleman. We all recognise his difficulties, and he has, if I may say so, over a very difficult period of time been extremely helpful in connection with a large number of measures which were repugnant to him, and are repugnant to us, but they are forced on us by an even more repugnant situation. It would be useful if we were able to get a quick resolution to give effect to this, but I have mentioned some of the difficulties which the House as a whole faces, and I think we had better leave that question to the usual channels.
Mr. Braine: May I ask the Prime Minister whether appropriate support from the United States—those were the right hon. Gentleman's words—includes financial assistance, or is the cost of helping an oil-lift to Zambia to be borne solely by the British taxpayer? Secondly, may I ask whether he is aware that the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs said earlier this afternoon that the response from other countries to a trade embargo has been very satisfactory? Can he explain this sudden haste in imposing oil sanctions?
The Prime Minister: First, with regard to the assurances concerning all appropriate support from the United States to make the airlift effective, any action taken by the United States will be the

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financial responsibility of the United States and not the British taxpayer. We have made a useful contribution in respect of surface transport, and we are bearing the cost of the United Kingdom airlift into Zambia. As to trade sanctions, it is true that day by day we are receiving more and more information that individual countries—and Commonwealth countries have given a fine lead here—are applying very wide-ranging restrictions on imports from Rhodesia. The results are certainly satisfactory. But we have had to consider not only the background of the internal situation in Rhodesia but what some hon. Members may have disregarded, namely, the very grave danger of this becoming a major conflagration in Africa, and it was necessary to get this matter settled as quickly as possible. We took the view that it was right to take this action in relation to oil.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: Would the House be right in understanding from the Prime Minister's original statement and subsequent answers that there is a clear distinction between the position of this country and that of the United States—and, presumably, the other countries to which he has referred—namely, that whereas in this country the prohibition of oil supplies to Rhodesia is thought to require the criminal sanctions of an Order in Council, which the right hon. Gentleman will introduce, in the United States it will rely solely on compliance with the exhortations of the American Government? If that is thought to be effective there, why should it not be effective here, and vice versa?
The Prime Minister: There certainly is this difference, and it arises from the fact—and I am glad to say that the United States was very strong on this point—that instead of its being a joint operation it was an operation taken by Britain with America's full support coming in behind. This was done to reinforce the point that we have made throughout at the United Nations—and it is an important point—that this is our responsibility, and that we are seeking the support of other nations in carrying out the responsibilities that we are discharging rather than asking for international action, in which we would then be only one party.
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As for the methods used in the United States, they have certain legal difficulties about making an order, but they have had satisfactory assurances. We were advised that in our case it was better to deal with this quite simply by an Order, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman—who is a far better lawyer than I ever will be, even if I tried—will know that this is helpful in relation to claims for compensation. This point was also made in the United States.
Mr. Paget: Is not my right hon. Friend very well aware that by using all the available tankers in the Union and other things this embargo cannot possibly succeed in seriously incommoding Rhodesia? Is not the proposal with regard to the sanctions, which he knows well cannot succeed, merely a preliminary step to the next move, which is war? Is it not time for the country to be told fairly and truly that we have reached the point at which the only alternative to negotiating with the existing régime is to fight it?
The Prime Minister: My hon. and learned Friend is wrong on both points. I am a little surprised that the very small minority on this side of the House —I think that it is confined to my hon. and learned Friend—and the somewhat larger minority on the other side are not quite sure whether to attack this Measure because it will be ineffective—which is logical after all that they have said—or because they think that it will be effective. We do not regard it as a step towards a military solution; on the contrary, if my hon. and learned Friend will forget for one moment what he has said in the past few weeks and study the facts, he will be aware as I am aware—and as anybody will be aware who is in touch with African opinion—that in the last week we have been within inches of very serious intervention by other countries. We have said in this House—and I hope that everybody will agree about this—that this is our responsibility. We must take the measures, and must do everything in our power to avoid a military solution being sought by anyone.
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman has already spoken of escalation. Following the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), is the Prime Minister aware that any escalation of these measures into the

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use of force would be entirely unacceptable to those on this side of the House and, I believe, to the people of this country?
The Prime Minister: When I used the word "escalation"—and I think that I did so twice—I was referring to suggestions that have been made by hon. Members on both sides of the House that we should use Chapter VII language at the United Nations, limited to economic sanctions. I referred to the danger that mandatory resolutions in the Security Council, even though limited to economic measures, could escalate into mandatory Chapter VII resolutions relating to much more serious and grave measures. That was the phrase in which I used the word "escalation".
On the general question of the use of military measures for settling this problem, what the right hon. Gentleman said is what all of us have been saying for several weeks past, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will have seen that I stressed this very strongly indeed in my speech to the United Nations General Assembly.
Mr. Heath: On a point of order. For the guidance of the House in the forthcoming debate, it is clear that after the statement of the Prime Minister many hon. Members on both sides of the House will want to discuss the subject of Rhodesia. Would it be convenient to arrive at an agreement between ourselves that today we should concentrate on matters of foreign affairs other than Rhodesia and that tomorrow we should deal for most of the debate with Rhodesia?
Mr. Speaker: On the pure question of order, Rhodesia is in order in the debate, as is the question of oil sanctions. If the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition should commend itself to the House—[Horn. MEMBERS: "No."] Order. If the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman should commend itself to the general sense of the House hon. Members will try to comply with that suggestion, namely, that we discuss foreign affairs generally today and Rhodesia tomorrow. But it will be in order for any hon. Member—we are debating on the Adjournment, and the Adjournment is on foreign policy—to make
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points about Rhodesia or general foreign policies whichever day he is called.
The Prime Minister: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House will be grateful to you for your Ruling, and particularly for your making it clear that references to Rhodesia will be in order in the Foreign Affairs debate going beyond the foreign affairs aspects of Rhodesia. I am sure that many hon. Members will take advantage of that. I want to be clear about this. Quite a number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will seek to catch your eye tomorrow and will want to talk about foreign affairs as well, and I thought that there was a desire on the part of some hon. Members that I should report on my talks in Washington and in the United Nations. If I am confined to the subject of Rhodesia tomorrow it will be a little restrictive. I hope that the advice that you have given will mean that we will be free to range over both subjects as may he appropriate.
Mr. J. Amery: Can the Leader of the House tell us whether he hopes to be able to announce that the Order will be brought before the House before we separate for Christmas?
Mr. Hugh Fraser: I am sure that, however hon. Members feel about this Order, the whole House will agree that it is important that it should he debated before Christmas. It will be a turning point, one way or the other, in the Rhodesian affair. It is, therefore, only right that we should debate it, even if it means having an extra day to do so.
Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Fraser: I am asking the Prime Minister.
The Prime Minister: I have said that this question was being considered through the usual channels. We are naturally anxious to get the Order approved by the House as quickly as possible, but there are other considerations of general interest to the House as a whole, and it is only right that the usual channels should meet in order to arrive at a decision which is acceptable and is to the greatest possible convenience to the House as a whole.
Mr. Wall: On a point of order. Could we have a statement on this matter as soon as the usual channels have met so that we know exactly where we are?

WAR PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE (ASSESSMENT OF DISABLEMENT)
The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Margaret Herbison): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement.
Mr. Speaker: Order. If hon. Gentlemen must leave, I wish that they would do so quietly. We have a long programme of important business ahead of us.
Miss Herbison: With permission, Mr. speaker, I should like to make a statement about the Report of the Committee on the Assessment of Disablement. The Report is being published today as a Command Paper and copies will be available presently in the Vote Office.
Following an all-party Motion, my predecessor appointed in October, 1964 an independent committee under the chairmanship of Lord McCorquodale of Newton. The Committee was asked to consider whether the schedules of certain specified injuries under the war pensions and industrial injuries schemes required alteration, and whether there was a case for any special provision in respect of amputation as such, either generally or in relation to advancing age.
On behalf of the Government I wish to thank Lord McCorquodale and his colleagues very warmly for their detailed and expert examination, which has resulted in a most valuable Report.
I am glad to be able to tell the House that the Committee firmly endorses the general structure of compensation under both schemes. It has recommended only two changes in the Schedules. First, that very severe amputations which involve taking away not only an arm or a leg, but part of the shoulder or buttock as well, should be specifically included at the 100 per cent. level, at which such amputations already receive unscheduled assessments. Secondly, that the present mid-thigh assessment point for a leg amputation should be replaced by one at the knee, with a consequent increase from
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60 to 70 per cent. in the scheduled assessment for amputation above the knee up to mid-thigh. The Committee felt that the Schedules should reflect the importance now attached to the knee joint in the fitting and functioning of an artificial limb by rounding up the assessment of those who have lost their knee and not by reducing the assessment of those who have kept it; but it emphasised that its recommendation does not imply any disturbance in the general relativities of compensation.
I have decided to accept both these recommendations. The best estimate I can make is that getting on for 4,000 war pensioners and perhaps 500 industrial disablement pensioners will receive higher assessments.
On the second part of its terms of reference, the Committee found no evidence to show that amputation in itself constituted a greater relative burden or handicap than other forms of disablement assessed at the same levels for the purpose of the basic disablement pension, and no grounds for any special provision for amputation either generally or in relation to advancing age. It has, however, recommended that a new allowance should be introduced for those pensioners whose disablement, whether due to amputation or other disabilities, is of such exceptional severity that they are receiving constant attendance allowance at a rate above the normal maximum or would be receiving it but for the fact that they are in hospital. I am happy also to accept this recommendation. The new allowance will he at the rate of £3 a week. While, again, I cannot tell the House precisely how many pensioners are likely to be affected, since many of those who may be eligible are in hospital and will have to be medically examined, I estimate that up to a thousand war pensioners may benefit from the new allowance and a similar number of industrial injury pensioners.
My Department will take steps to identify and review all the cases who may be affected by these improvements; no application will be necessary. As the House will appreciate, this process will take some time, but I hope that it will be possible for most of the new awards which depend upon amendment of the Royal Warrant to be made by the end of March. As regards the industrial injuries

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scheme, legislation will be necessary. I hope to be able to include the necessary provision in legislation which will be coming before the House this Session.
The estimated cost of these improvements is of the order of £½ million in a full year.
Mr. Wood: Would the right hon. Lady add my congratulations to Lord McCorquodale for producing a speedy and obviously very lucid Report upon what I realised, when I asked him to undertake the task, was a very complicated subject? Is the right hon. Lady aware that the alternations which the Committee recommended, and which I am glad to hear she is accepting, so far as they relate to amputations will give general satisfaction? As far as the allowance for the severely disabled pensioner is concerned, can she say whether the industrial injuries legislation will allow these pensions to be paid as early as the Royal Warrant will allow them to be paid, and secondly, where medical examination is necessary, will she ensure that there is back-dating if the medical examination is not completed by the time the Royal Warrant comes into force?
Miss Herbison: I shall certainly convey to Lord McCorquodale what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I think that all of us, on both sides of the House, must be delighted at the speed with which the Committee has worked, on a very difficult matter. On the question of war disablement, the right hon. Gentleman knows that this depends on the Royal Warrant, and we hope to have this cleared by the end of March, to have payment in being. The industrial injuries provision will go into part of a Bill dealing with earnings-related short-term benefits. We hope to have this provision very soon after New Year, so that there will not be a great deal of difference in the payments to either set of men.
Mr. L. M. Lever: I would like to add my thanks to Lord McCorquodale and to thank the Minister for her acceptance of the recommendations contained in the Report. Many Reports have been published in days gone by which the Government have not been able to endorse. I am very glad that the Minister has been able to endorse these recommendations and that so many people will benefit as
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a result. This Report will be carefully studied by the British Limbless Ex-Servicemen's Association, on whose behalf I speak, and on whose behalf I enlisted the support of nearly 500 Members of this House, drawn from all parties in the House.
Mr. Speaker: No one in the House questions the keen and devoted interest which the hon. Gentleman has shown in the problems of the Limbless Ex-Servicemen's Association, but we cannot have long statements at this stage.
Miss Herbison: I think that everyone knows of the great work which my hon. Friend has done, in conjunction with Members from the other side of the House, whose names were on the Motion accepted by my predecessor. I am sure that we are all glad to hear his acceptance of this Report, which the Government are implementing.
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: Can the right hon. Lady answer two questions arising from her statement? Can she say, apart from the new supplementary allowance which she has announced, whether she intends the rough differential between the four principal supplementary allowances at present existing and the disability pension to remain unchanged? Secondly, can she say whether the second point which she has accepted from this Report is going to do away with the doubts and disputes which were so often attached to amputation between the hip joint and the knee?
Miss Herbison: The answer to the first question is "Yes". The answer to the second question is that I hope this will go a very long way to doing away with disputes. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, as a former Minister in my Department, knows how often disputes arose.
Mr. Lubbock: While congratulating Lord McCorquodale on the speed with which he presented his Report and the Minister on her acceptance of the recommendations in it, may I ask the right hon. Lady whether the recommendations fully meet the views put to her by the British Limbless Ex-Servicemen's Association and by the British Legion? Is she aware that the British Legion passed a resolution at its last annual conference drawing attention to the position of people

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who had been awarded a disability pension of less than 40 per cent., who, I gather, are not included in these proposals?
Miss Herbison: No, those with a disability pension of less than 40 per cent. are not included. I shall be very surprised if the British Legion and B.L.E.S.M.A. do not accept the findings of this Report. They were given every facility to make their case. I think that when hon. Members read the Report they will see not only how sympathetically every point of view was examined, but valid reasons why the Committee made the proposals which it has made.

CRIMINAL LAW BILL
Referred to a Second Reading Committee.—[Mr. Short.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Short.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [4TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir SAMUEL STOREY in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1965–66

    CLASS X VOTE 4. ROYAL MINT
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to Her Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for the salaries and expenses of the Royal Mint in the production of coins, medals, badges, dies, seals, etc., and for the withdrawal of coin.
    Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Gourlay],—put and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Short.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  Mr. William Warbey: On a point of order. As I wish to oppose the Motion for the adjournment so that the House can consider Motion No. 10 standing on today's Order Paper, would you, Mr. Speaker, indicate how that could most properly be done?
  Mr. Speaker: The only way in which the hon. Gentleman can oppose the Motion now before the House is to speak to it. But that involves catching the eye of Mr. Speaker.
  4.15 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart): In view of the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made a little while ago, I think it will be right for me to begin my speech this afternoon by a reference to those aspects of the Rhodesian problem which are particularly foreign

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  affairs aspects. I shall try not to take too long about this in view of the many other topics which must necessarily be referred to in opening a foreign affairs debate.
  On Rhodesia, despite certain optimistic prophecies—optimistic from his point of view—made by Mr. Smith some time ago, no nation has extended recognition to his régime. The policy of Her Majesty's Government of increasing economic measures against the Smith régime has been receiving a steadily mounting degree of support. The House will forgive me if I now read one or two lists. Certain countries have imposed a complete embargo on trade of any kind with Rhodesia, or economic dealings of any kind—India, Jamaica, Trinidad, Malaysia, Singapore, Nigeria, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Israel. Canada, Australia and New Zealand have banned all imports from Rhodesia. Countries which will not receive any Rhodesian tobacco and sugar are France, Japan, the Federal Republic of Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Italy. The degree of support, both over oil and many other aspects, given by the Government of the United States is well known and was further made clear by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister today and the satisfactory assurances which we had from the Government of France concerning the oil embargo.
  The hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine), who was here a little while ago, asked what was the hurry about the oil embargo. It may be remembered that the United Kingdom voted at the Security Council for a resolution which specifically mentioned an oil embargo among other measures, and it was our clear duty, having voted for that resolution, to take all the steps we could as soon as we could to see that it was put into effect. Indeed, when I spoke at the Security Council, I urged, in view of some of the problems which organising an oil embargo involved, that the Security Council should set up a small group of its own members to examine and report with speed on the methods of making an oil embargo effective.
  I regret that that advice was not followed, but, as it was not followed, it
  1710
  was very clearly incumbent on us, in accordance with the terms of the resolution, to do our very best to make it effective. Therefore, we proceeded without delay to enter into the consultations which have brought about the result described by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister a little while ago.
  I wish to express our thanks to those nations which have already shown in a practical manner their support for the policy of Her Majesty's Government on the Rhodesian question—and this is a list which will continue to expand. I trust that this example will be increasingly followed, that it will become plain to the world that it is the firm intention of the British Government to bring this rebellion to an end, and that the measures we are taking for that purpose will not be in any degree frustrated or hampered either by hesitation on the part of other Governments to deal with their own trade with Rhodesia, or by any rashness on the part of other Governments either to try to take part themselves or to give support to reckless, violent and ill-planned measures. I believe that if we can have steady and enthusiastic support for the measures which we are now taking and for such further measures as it may appear in our judgment of the situation to be necessary, then that continuing support of our purpose, the crushing of the rebellion, can be achieved with the minimum of danger to mankind.
  It was entirely understandable that many of the countries which I have mentioned should take the action they have taken. Some of them are fellow members of the Commonwealth with us. Many are friends and allies. I must add this: I hope that some of those nations which have been most critical of our attitude toward Rhodesia will at least give us their support in comparable economic measures.
  It is noticeable that of the nine countries which have either in whole or in part severed relations with us following the O.A.U. resolution, some have not so far taken any measures to obstruct their trade with Rhodesia. I mention, in particular, Ghana and the Congo (Brazzaville), both of which import significant quantities of Rhodesian tobacco and have not yet—I repeat, not yet—taken any measures to bar those imports. I

  1711
  hope and expect that action of that kind will come speedily.
  As to the breaking off of relations, I think that it will now be realised by those who took part in the conference where that resolution was passed—and will be realised even by those who have acted on the resolution—that if this action of breaking off relations with us over the Rhodesian issue were to have any effect at all, it could only be the effect of giving aid and comfort to the rebellion in Rhodesia; and I trust, therefore, that the unwisdom of this action will be seen.
  None the less, we should be prepared in this country to understand at any rate some of the reasons behind what seems to us to be ill-judged and inappropriate action. Behind the passionate impatience of many African States over this question there lies the long memory of every insult and injustice that has ever been done to a man with a black skin by a man with a white skin. We are having to conduct this affair against the background of a long memory of wrong and injustice.
  I say to those who feel this impatience that one cannot deal with the present and the future wisely solely on a basis of memory of past wrongs, however deep. We have all of us, whatever the colours of our skins, to co-operate in getting this Rhodesian problem solved. Any further measures which Her Majesty's Government may find it necessary to take in pursuit of the policy of dealing with the rebellion will have to be taken in the light of what we judge to be wise and necessary. They cannot be taken as a result of pressure of the kind which it was imagined this breaking off of diplomatic relations would mean.
  That is all I wish to say on the Rhodesian question. There are, of course, many other aspects of it, but I have tried to confine myself to those which were specifically foreign affairs aspects of the whole question.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer one point? He has mentioned several countries, and the Prime Minister at Question Time today mentioned the importance of the Netherlands in this matter. Is it true that under the Netherlands legislation that country cannot discriminate against any country?
  Mr. Stewart: I think that that was not quite correct. I accept that this is a complicated question. I believe that it would not be correct to say that they could not discriminate.
  Sir Derek Walker-Smith: May I ask a wider question on the same point? The right hon. Gentleman made an interesting and important observation about the nine countries which he listed as seking to interrupt their trade with Rhodesia. Has he made any study, or has any study been made, about their position; whether they have the legal powers effectively to interrupt their trade and whether they have the administrative machinery to do so? We know that in this country that only in a sense by the accident of the survival of the emergency legislation of 1939 was that action able to be taken here. However, it does not necessarily follow that that obtains in other countries. Has this matter been looked into?
  Mr. Stewart: We have, since this business began, been collecting information both as to the intended policies of other Governments and the actual, practical results of any action which they might take. The legal position varies from one country to another, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find that the net effect, even when one has made allowance for the point he makes, will be to make a very substantial impact on the trade with Rhodesia. I do not think that the point he makes substantially detracts from the main effect. I agree that in not all countries is there the same exact correspondence between what the law says and what happens as here, as least in this kind of sphere, but I do not think that the point is of very great substance.
  There is a concluding word I wish to say on the Rhodesia issue. The reason why one should refer to it in a foreign affairs debate is, of course, the fact that this is much more than a question between the United Kingdom and Rhodesia. It is a question on the solution of which will turn the whole matter of the relations between the different sections of mankind in future.
  In the first speech I made to the House as Foreign Secretary I mentioned that one of the principles which Her Majesty's Government must pursue if they sought

  1713
  to work for peace was that of resolute opposition to racialism and that if we did not make it clear in our handling of the Rhodesian question that we were uncompromisingly opposed to racialist doctrines we should forfeit any real opportunity of influencing human affairs towards peace.
  There has been much reference in the whole of the argument over Rhodesia to the phrase "kith and kin". Our kith and kin are mankind. These events in Rhodesia, and other events in the continent o Africa, are but one example of a general point that again I have attempted to make in an earlier speech. It is that we must recognise, we who live at this point of time, that we live in a world which is unquiet and which is likely to remain unquiet for a long time—a world in which there is an insistent demand for change, change in the relationships between different sections of mankind, white and coloured, change in political relationships, between former Colonies and former imperial Powers, and change in social relationships affecting land tenure, the distribution of economic power and the creation of social security.
  The process of getting those changes through without causing violent upheaval in the world is the central problem which we have to face. It is a problem that will be with us for a long time. In some parts of the world there seem to be good prospects that these necessary —indeed, unavoidable—changes can be carried through with the preservation of peace and with regard to human liberty. In other parts of the world conflict already rages. But all these events, in a sense, are part of one picture of a world which cannot be quiet, cannot be stable, must move, must develop, must change, and in which our problem is to see that those changes are peaceful, are constructive, are consistent with human liberty.
  Let me refer to those areas where, unfortunately, conflict actually rages and, first, to the terrible conflict in Vietnam. We have all become aware now, I think, of the cruelty of this war; cruelty not only in the sense that the carrying out of the operations of war is in its nature cruel, but cruelty sometimes by deliberate intent. We notice not only the cruelty but the great tenacity with which both
  1714
  sides continue the struggle. I want to refer to one episode in the war that illustrates both the cruelty and the tenacity. It is, in itself, a small episode, but one of very many such episodes.
  A Vietcong force was besieging an outpost held by a small garrison of South Vietnamese Government troops. The Vietcong had captured some of the wives and children of the garrison, and ordered the wives to call on their husbands to surrender. The wives refused to do so. This illustrates, if anything does, the degree of tenacity with which this conflict is being waged. They and their children were shot down. When, finally, the relieving force came to the outpost, it was found that one woman had survived the holocaust. She was a woman expecting a child. She was taken to hospital, where she died. The child was delivered after her death, but itself died a few hours later. This is one episode of thousands.
  There has, I know, been much comment about the ravages in North Vietnam of American air action. It is important, if we are to understand this matter, to remember at the same time the long campaign of systematic murder and terrorism carried out by the Vietcong. It is also necessary to remember the immense tenacity with which both sides have resisted the attacks made by the other. That is the kind of situation with which we are faced—
  Mr. Stanley Orme: I appreciate the terrible incident that my right hon. Friend has just outlined. Would he now explain to the House in as much detail a napalm bomb raid by the United States Air Force?
  Mr. Stewart: My hon. Friend knows very well that the reason why I particularly chose this episode is the enormous publicity that has been given here and elsewhere to the effects of American bombing in the north—[HON. MEMBERS: "And the south."]—and, as my hon. Friend knows very well, I chose this episode so that we should restore the balance. I would point out, too, that when I have heard hon. Members describing the terrible effects of the bombing, I have never interrupted them or objected to their doing so. We should all be prepared to hear all sides.
  But there is one conclusion, inevitably, that we draw from this, and that is the

  1715
  desperate necessity of stopping this conflict, because of its cruelty, and of recognising that because of the tenacity with which it is waged, it will not be stopped by outright victory by one side or the other. It is essential for humanity to stop it. It is particularly essential, as a matter of fact, to see that it must be stopped by recourse to the conference table.
  On what basis could that be done? Both sides have at least this in common, that they say they want to see a settlement on the basis of the Geneva Agreements. This point has been made several times by the Government of North Vietnam and by the Government of the United States, and it was repeated recently in Mr. Dean Rusk's letter to Signor Fanfani. It is true that one may find some difficulty in reconciling respect for the Geneva Agreements with one of the North Vietnamese four points, which says that the future of South Vietnam must be determined in accordance with the programme of the Liberation Front.
  It is difficult to reconcile that point with the reference to free elections in the Geneva Agreements—though I do not believe that this would necessarily prove an insuperable obstacle if once we could get the parties to the conference table. But there is this also to be noticed with the Geneva Agreements. If the things for which they provide, including free elections, are to come about, it is quite clear that they cannot come about until the fighting is stopped, and until North and South have some opportunity to recover.
  That was why I put forward, some time ago, the sequence of events by which I believed a solution could be found—a cease-fire, a conference, a guarantee to North Vietnam and South Vietnam against interference from each other or anyone else and, once that was guaranteed, the complete neutrality of North and South and recovery from the ravages of the war. We would then be able to think with reality in terms of free elections, of the establishment of Governments that could be regarded as representative, and it would then be open to the people of North and South Vietnam to decide for themselves on their relationships with each other. That is how I believe that this matter could be dealt with on the basis of the Geneva Agreements; by those necessary steps which would make it pos-
  1716
  sible to carry out the Geneva Agreements.
  We have now to ask: are the two sides willing to negotiate on this basis? There, I have to tell the House again, as I have told it before, that if we are to take the statements of the parties themselves, we have a clear statement by the United States and South Vietnam of their willingness to negotiate, and the clear statement by the Government of Hanoi of its unwillingness to negotiate —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Members doubt that statement, let them read what has recently been said by the Government of Hanoi, where they say flatly that the presumed offer of negotiations referred to in the correspondence between Signor Fanfani and Mr. Dean Rusk is a complete fabrication.
  I ask hon. Members to notice particularly what it was I said. I said that if we are to take the statements made by the two Governments it is clear that—as far as what they themselves say—America is willing to negotiate and Hanoi is not. Can it be true, as is sometimes argued, that despite these denials by Hanoi, there is a willingness to negotiate?
  Mr. Warbey: My right hon. Friend keeps saying over and over again, as he has said many times during the past 12 months, that it is Hanoi all the time which is unwilling to negotiate. He has just again misquoted a Vietnamese news agency release. He has quoted one part of it only. It says that there was a fabrication. What it says was a fabrication is that Hanoi ever made a peace feeler or a peace probe. What the news agency confirms is that the North Vietnamese leaders did put forward in their discussions with Senor la Pira the terms on which they were prepared to negotiate a peaceful political settlement of the Vietnam question.
  Mr. Stewart: But my hon. Friend has just said it over again, that Hanoi denied that it made a peace feeler.
  Mr. Warbey: Exactly.
  Mr. Stewart: Notice that I do not say that Hanoi did not put forward a peace feeler. I say that they themselves deny it. I was just going on to raise the question: can it be true, despite these denials, that there is somewhere a willingness on the part of Hanoi to negotiate? It may be true. I hope so. But I am

  1717
  bound to say that there is only one authority that can give us absolute certainty on this, and that is the Government of Hanoi.
  There are several ways in which this could be done. It could be done by proposals for both sides to abandon their hostilities and then come to the conference table. It could come by their coming to the conference table immediately and arranging the terms under which hostilities will be brought to an end. However, there must be on both sides a willingness to come to the conference table, either before or after or simultaneously with a cease-fire. What I do not think one could ask of either side is that it should be prepared to come to the conference table on the understanding that it has ceased its military actions unilaterally and the other side has made no corresponding move. I do not think it would be sensible or realistic to expect either side to accept a condition of negotiation on that basis.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Stewart: I have given way a good many times already. Some of my hon. Friends were concerned when I related Hanoi's denials that it had put forward peace feelers. I wish good fortune to anyone who can get Hanoi in the mood where it will negotiate. It may well be that there are moves and intentions of which none of us can have knowledge, but in the end the final test will be whether the Government in Hanoi are prepared to negotiate at all, either before or after or concurrently with a cease fire. What is not realistic is to say that one side must stop its military action without the other doing so. Then we could have a conference, perhaps of indefinite duration, on those terms. That at present is how the matter stands.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: My right hon. Friend has talked about what is realistic. Will he for a moment talk about what he really considers to be morally right?
  Mr. Stewart: When in 1960 Ho Chi Minh called for an all-out struggle by the Vietcong against South Vietnam, I think that it would have been morally right for him to have refrained from doing so. In the dangerous world in
  1718
  which we live, a dreadful responsibility rests on anyone who unnecessarily shifts any dispute from the level of the comparatively peaceful, however uneasy, to the level of all-out conflict; and anyone who does that cannot foretell or control the range of the conflict that will thereby result.
  Mr. Heffer Mr. Heffer rose——
  Mr. Stewart: I really cannot give way again. What I believe would be morally right now is an agreement by both sides to stop all their military operations and come to the conference table. Is anyone going to say that that is morally wrong? I will give way now to ray hon. Friend.
  Mr. Heffer: The point my right hon. Friend is making is that at a certain stage the North Vietnamese called for an all-out war. Is it not a fact that the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese Liberation Front only decided to participate in this sort of action once it was quite clear that the 1954 Geneva Agreement was not being operated and there was no intention of it being operated, and only at that stage did they take to arms to try to settle this problem?
  Mr. Stewart: In the first place, if my hon. Friend is advancing that as the justification for starting a war, it seems to me a very inadequate one. Secondly, I repeat that if one talks of the Geneva accords, they provide for free elections throughout the whole of Vietnam. I put forward again this possibility. Let both sides stop hostilities. Let there be a conference. Let us get from that conference North and South Vietnam neutral, undisturbed, able to carry out the Geneva accords and determine their own future. Nothing that I have heard has ever convinced me that there is anything either morally wrong or practically absurd about those proposals.
  The one thing I cannot accept is a proposal that one side should abandon the conflict without any regard to what the other side may do. It is that fact and that situation which the House, the country, and the world have to face.
  There is one other possibility—that, if it is possible to arrange a Christmas truce, that might be extended and so a kind of de facto door would be open to a settlement. I repeat what my hon. Friend the

  1719
  Minister of State for Foreign Affairs said last week:
  "We very much welcome the Christmas truce proposed by the North Vietnam authorities. It is a very short truce. We would hope that it could be extended to a length sufficient to allow the possibility of real negotiations to take place."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1965; Vol. 722, c. 884.]
  There is one other place where actual conflict rages, though mercifully on nothing like this scale. That is the conflict between Indonesia and Malaysia. There again, there are possibilities and rumours of possible negotiations. There was an offer from Mr. Subandrio to negotiate with the separate component states of the Federation of Malaysia. I do not think that could have been accepted, since one of the objectives put forward for Indonesia's action is to break up the Malaysian Federation. Malaysia could hardly be expected to start discussions on the basis that she was already broken up. The Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia, however, did reply that they were willing to negotiate with Indonesia once the aggression had been stopped.
  For our part we should welcome any solution which would be acceptable to Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia and in which possibly neighbouring countries might be concerned. I believe again, in common sense, that a solution of that kind is possible, but it will be very difficult to find it as long as the armed Indonesian action continues.
  Turning from places where there is actual conflict to that realm of world affairs where we are dealing not with people with whom we are in conflict, not with people whom we want to regard as enemies, but with those who are not our allies and with whom we have many differences, I made a statement to the House not long ago about my visit to the Soviet Union. I now want to say something about relations between this country and the Soviet Union.
  I think that we want those relationships to be at least of the kind that is described by the words "peaceful coexistence", but so that I shall not be accused of slurring over difficulties with a phrase I think that we should notice that one of our problems is that we and the Soviet Union do not always give the same meaning to that phrase "peaceful
  1720
  co-existence". As I understand it, and as I think we in the House generally understand it, it means that despite our profound differences in ideology and forms of government, we are nevertheless resolved to live peaceably side by side and indeed to trade, to have personal and cultural contacts and, it may be, to let history be the ultimate judge of which of us has made the wiser ideological choice. That is one view, that is my own view, of what one should mean by "peaceful co-existence". We have to notice that to the Soviet Union that definition might seem naive, that they have taken the view that it is consistent with peaceful co-existence that they should reserve the right to give help to Communists in any part of the world which they judge fit and to give their approval and sometimes their support to any conflict which they may decide is a war of national liberation.
  This important difference as to what is meant by co-existence makes relations between us and the Soviet Union a complicated problem—a complicated one, but not an impossible one, because the Soviet Union, whatever our ideological differences, certainly has a very great and increasing interest in the preservation of the peace of the world. Indeed, every day that passes that tends to increase their standard of life, to make the preservation of peace worth more to all their citizens, that brings nearer within their grasp the immense programmes of social improvements, which they, like us, have stretching out before them—every day that goes on like that gives them a greater interest in the preservation of peace. We have then this considerable long-term common interest.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that what he has described as the attitude of the Soviet Union to peaceful co-existence, that is, in maintaining the right to intervene at any point where it feels its own interest to be threatened, is precisely the attitude of the United States in, for example, Santa Domingo?
  Mr. Stewart: Perhaps my hon. Friend will remember what I said about the action of the United States there—that I considered that although the original dispatch of forces had the sound motive of protecting lives, the size of the forces

  1721
  dispatched was quite out of proportion to that task. I think that I also said that in the kind of world which most of us would like to see, when Santa Domingo fell into disorder there would have been either tae Security Council or some international body to deal with it. Part of our problem is that we live in a world where that is not so and in which, therefore, there is the temptation to great Powers to take upon themselves a rôle of that kind. That is one of the things which we have been trying to prevent by strengthening the peace-keeping authority of the Security Council or, in default of the Security Council, of the General Assembly of the United Nations.
  But the point which I was making was that this view of peaceful co-existence complicates our relations with the Soviet Union but does not make increasing understanding impossible because we both have a massive common interest in the preservation of peace. One of the lighter episodes in my visit to Moscow was an afternoon spent in discussing with the chairman of the Moscow City Soviet the housing, traffic and town planning problems of a great capital city. While differences of social system caused certain different problems, it was striking how many of the problems were the same. That is true over a wide field of social and economic activity and both countries have a pressing need for peace to try and solve that kind of problem. What we must do, therefore, is to look particularly for those special fields where agreement can be reached and not to lose patience too readily if results are not obtained in time. If we look back over the whole of the last 20 years we shall find that on a good many matters—the Austrian State Treaty was perhaps the most striking example—agreement has been reached between East and West after a long period of frustrations and disappointments.
  As the House knows, one of the fields in which I am anxious to see agreement reached is the formulation of a treaty for the non-dissemination of nuclear weapons, not only because such a treaty would be valuable in itself but because I believe that it could be a platform on which further steps could be taken for the reassurance of those countries which are not nuclear Powers but might become so, and for the general pacification of the
  1722
  world. I should like to state quite clearly to the House how I see both the possibilities and the difficulties here. The Soviet Union not unnaturally, when discussing non-dissemination, lays particular emphasis on the anxieties which it has about the Federal Republic of Germany and argues, as I understand it, that we in N.A.T.O. may make arrangements which will involve disseminating nuclear weapons to West Germany.
  What I believe is the right position about this, and the position which I endeavoured to set out in Moscow, and had the opportunity to do not only in formal talks but to a wider audience over the television, is that we shall not agree for our part to any arrangement in N.A.T.O. which gives to any non-nuclear Power or group of non-nuclear Powers a position in which by itself it could decide that nuclear weapons could be used. If one does not do that one is not disseminating. But it seems to me that, provided we safeguard that essential point, the countries of N.A.T.O. are free to make what reasonable arrangements they choose for the cohesion of the alliance which do not involve the dissemination of weapons. It is now for the Soviet Union to weigh the matter up and I trust that it will come to the decision that it can go forward to the preparation of an agreed draft to a treaty of non-proliferation.
  I mentioned the natural anxieties which the Soviet Union has about West Germany, but there again that means "natural" in the light of past events and what Russia suffered at the hands of the Nazis. But it is right to remember that she was not the only country that suffered at the hands of the Nazis, and that we cannot build for the future if we continually try to base present policies on a belief that nothing has changed or ever will change.
  The other thing which I should like to mention about my talks in Moscow——
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
  Mr. Stewart: I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me, but I have taken a rather long time and I must not delay the House too long.
  Mr. Donnelly Mr. Donnelly rose——
  Mr. Stewart: I cannot give way now.
  The other thing which I should like to mention about my conversations in Moscow was the evident anxiety of the Russians that these talks should be continued; that was specifically mentioned in the communiqué. In diligently reading a translation of the Russian Press after the talks, I found that although many remarks were sharply critical of British policies, the talks were described by Izvestia as having been useful, businesslike and having made a positive contribution to the discussion of Anglo-Soviet relations. I hope that that verdict is a correct one and that the process, necessarily long, sometimes burdensome, of reaching closer understanding will steadily continue.
  Whatever we do, whether it is helping an ally in actual conflict, as we help Malaysia, or whether it is the process of trying to promote agreement between East and West, Britain has to recognise today that she cannot do these things entirely single-handed and that her real influence in the world today has to be done through certain groups—through N.A.T.O., through the Commonwealth, through the United Nations and through relations with Europe. It was a matter of great regret to me that I was not able to attend the recent N.A.T.O. Ministerial conference, but I was glad to notice the heartening unity which there was there, in particular the amount of unity and support for our policy towards Rhodesia and the increasing readiness of the nations in the alliance to notice the importance of events outside the confines of Europe.
  At the United Nations, we have had indeed a difficult session, but it has been something of a triumph that the session was able to be held at all and that we weathered the storm which some months ago threatened to destroy the organisation itself. The problem of the peace-keeping authority of the Security Council or the General Assembly still remains unsolved. We still hold to the view that without prejudice to the authority of the Security Council, there is a place for the General Assembly in making sure that, where necessary, peace-keeping operations can be carried on.
  It has also been possible as a result of work in the United Nations for the
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  Disarmament Conference at Geneva to be resumed. We have been concerned there with proposals with which the House is already familiar and which I need not repeat here. Britain has also played a creditable part in the expansion in the economic and social work of the United Nations.
  I regret that as a result of what I can only call a piece of irresponsible spite, the particular item which we had put down for consideration at the Assembly—the peaceful settlement of disputes—will now have to be further postponed; but we shall persist and take it up as soon as we are able to do so.
  As to our relations with Europe, here again I do not want to weary the House with repetition. I only say that together with our partners in E.F.T.A., we have made a move towards the countries of the Common Market which is welcome to them and the fruition of which waits upon the solution of the difficulties inside the Common Market itself.
  As to relations between Britain and the Common Market, Britain is ready and willing to join the Common Market provided that certain British interests can be safeguarded. Those are mentioned in the five conditions which the Labour Party set down. I have stated, and I repeat, that some of those conditions are now easier of fulfilment than they were at the time they were made, although it is clear that considerable difficulties remain, particularly in agricultural policy.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: I do not want to misrepresent or get an inaccurate rendering of what the Foreign Secretary has just said. Are we to take it that, accepting that there are difficulties, the Government regard agriculture as the chief obstacle? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say what he regards as the chief obstacle to our joining the Six?
  Mr. Stewart: I mention agriculture because it is one of the most knotty. I shall not make a list and award marks for difficulties, but that is obviously one of the most difficult. In another of the conditions—the safeguarding of the interests of our E.F.T.A. partners—the situation has altered by the much greater willingness of our E.F.T.A. partners to consider a move of this kind, whereas the agricultural difficulty has not melted to that extent.
  Mr. Gilbert Longden: Would it not be true to say that the position of the Government which the right hon. Gentleman has just outlined—that we are ready and willing to join the Common Market if British interests can be safeguarded—was exactly the position of the last Administration?
  Mr. Stewart: I am not answering for the policies of the last Administration. Look what happened in the history of the Common Market and the Conservative Party. First, they tried to snub the European Economic Community and failed. Then they tried to get into it and failed. After that, they sulked. I do not wish to pursue the question of the relationship between the Conservative Party and the Common Market any further.
  Mr. Edward Heath: I do not wish to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but if he is going back into history he should go back to the time when the Labour Government turned down entry into the Coal and Steel Community.
  Mr. Stewart: That is true, but is the right hon. Gentleman ascribing the attempts first to snub and then to get into the Common Market and their failure to the action of the previous Administration? Is he really saying that? I do not think so. I might have mentioned also the complete failure to refer to this topic in the election address of the Conservative Party at the last election. I do not see why the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) should want me to pronounce about his party's attitude when they themselves want to preserve silence about it. If we want to get on good terms with the countries of the Common Market, the least said about the last Administration, the better.
  I mention these problems which are in our immediate minds—Rhodesia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Europe, the Soviet Union and East-West relations—but I believe it to be important, and I say this after nearly a year as Foreign Secretary, not to get so preoccupied with the problems which are so immediate that one must necessarily mention them in a speech to this House as to ignore the things that are rising up on the horizon —not, one hopes, problems, but sometimes great possibilities.
  1726
  In that connection, I want to mention certain countries, one of which, Japan, I have visited, and another group of countries, Latin America, which I hope to visit early in the New Year.
  The emergence of Japan as a country working with a democratic form of Government and anxious, after its experiences, to play a peaceful part in the world is something of which I think none of us has yet taken the full measure. We shall have to bring this factor into our thinking about Asian affairs. Similarly with Latin America. We not only have there an area of great importance and interest for its own sake, but in 20 years' time there will be 600 million people living in that part of the world, and probably, in consequence, there will be a great shift in the axes of power and interest in the world. It is also an area of which in 1914 25 per cent. of the imports came from this country. In the years between the wars that proportion was halved, and it has now been halved again. It is time, I think, that we renewed our interest in that part of the world. If find that I shall be the first British Foreign Secretary to have visited South America.
  I understand that many years ago when the people of Uruguay first established their country's independence, they sent a message to the British Ambassador in Brazil, saying they wished to come under the British Crown and enjoy British laws and institutions. The Britannic Majesty's Ambassador in Brazil forgot to forward the communication to his home Government. But who shall say whether this was negligence or foresight? We do not want more responsibilities than we can manage.
  However that may be. I hope and trust that the visit that I shall make there will be of value. I shall be meeting in Lima our ambassadors in the Latin American countries. I shall then go on to visit Chile and Argentina. Later on, my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will be visiting a further considerable number of Latin American countries.
  Finally, I have emphasised again and again that we live in a world that is constantly changing, and that if any of us expect to live in a quiet and stable world, we are certainly going to be disappointed. The immense disproportion between the technical skill of mankind

  1727
  and the comparatively primitive nature of man's political institutions means that we are going to live for a long time in a world of great ferment with one problem arising as another appears to be solved. I have been reminded of the words of one who is, in my judgment, one of the great English tragic poets:
  "The troubles of our proud and angry dust
  Are from eternity, and shall not fail."
  Despite that, I do not believe that that is a reason for facing the future without hope or courage. What it means is that we cannot think of foreign policy as the turning of a single key in a single lock and the door to a garden of complete peace immediately it flies open. We have to think of it as the steady pursuit of peace-loving policies, and for a country like ours, not now among the very greatest countries of the world, it is a matter of example, as well as of policy.
  If we can present to the world an example of a country which itself believes in democratic institutions and can make a success of them and solve social and economic problems with them; if we can present the example of a country which neither underrates its responsibilities nor overrates its powers but has judged how it can most effectively contribute to the solution of world problems; if we can present the example of a country which upholds the rule of law and, further, of a country which will give as much as its means and its wisdom permit to help raise the standard of living of the poorest nations of the world—if we can pursue a policy based on those ideals steadily and consistently, then I do not think we need leave the quotation at the pessimistic point where I left it just now:
  "The troubles of our proud and angry dust
  Are from eternity, and shall not fail.
  Bear them we can, and if we can we must. Shoulder the sky."
  5.15 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Soames: If I may start by welcoming the Foreign Secretary back with us from his illness, we hope that the effort that he has made to come here has not in any way detracted from his travelling along the road to a quick recovery. We are grateful to him for the way in which he has given us his views on some of the great events of
  1728
  the day with his usual and welcome clarity.
  The right hon. Gentleman began by referring to Rhodesia. I do not intend to follow him in this because, consonant with what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said when he raised the matter with Mr. Speaker, my right hon. Friend intends to deal with this in detail tomorrow after he has been able to give full consideration to the statement made by the Prime Minister today.
  The last foreign affairs debate in this House, last summer, was inevitably dominated by the situation in Vietnam and the question of the Commonwealth Peace Mission. Anxieties over the conflict in Vietnam still weigh heavily upon us, but it is certainly time that we had a more wide-ranging debate to take stock of the hopes and fears which are upper-most in our minds, and how we should wish to use our influence to mould events in the latter half of this decade, for the years between now and 1970 must seem from the perspective of the Foreign Secretary's chair to be fateful years in which decisions of immense importance in world terms are likely to be taken.
  Will, for instance, the N.A.T.O. review result in a strengthening or a weakening of Western unity? Will these years see a spread of nuclear weapons, or can we look for a non-proliferation treaty? Is Europe to proceed along the course it has charted for itself with growing economic and political unity, or is the greater European interest going to be subordinated to individual national interests? Is Britain to become an integral part of Europe, or shall we be watching its development from the sidelines? In the Middle East, can we look for a period of greater calm and stability? In the Far East, can we look for the end of the present confrontations in Vietnam and Malaysia, and perhaps to the creation by the free world of a permanent multilateral organisation to guarantee the freedom of the independent States of South-East Asia? These would seem to me to be some of the major questions which loom large, and I should like to offer some thoughts upon them and ask some questions of the Government.
  First, in the Far East, it is surely now common ground, as the Foreign Secretary said just now, that unconditional discussions offer the only route to a negotiated

  1729
  peace in Vietnam. We agree with the Government that it has been abundantly clear for many months that it is the insistence of the Government in Hanoi on preconditions which has been the one factor inhibiting the opening of negotiations. While the monsoon season was on, one felt that this insistence was prompted by the hope of the Hanoi Government that the military advantages which the rainy season brought to the guerrillas would bring important victories to the Vietcong. However that may be, it must now be clear to them that to continue the war will lead not to victory for them but only to greater death, destruction and tragedy both in the North and in the South. We must hope that this will lead them to a major reappraisal of their attitude and to a decision to come to the peace table. This, I believe, is thought to be the nub of the problem by my right hon. and hon. Friends, by the Government and by the majority of the party opposite.
  Mr. Warbey Mr. Warbey rose——
  Mr. Soames: If I may continue, I think that what I have to say will touch upon the point that the hon. Gentleman no doubt wishes to raise. The firm impression at Question Time in recent weeks, made by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) and some of his hon. Friends on the Left wing of the Labour Party, does not lead us to believe that they agree with this assessment. It seems to be their belief that, in some ways, it is lack of a desire by the United States Government that is preventing the convening of a peace conference.
  The Government, to their credit, and the Foreign Secretary again today, have made it abundantly clear that they in no way share that view. As we see it, the United States Government are fully prepared to agree to end hostilities at any time and to come to the conference table without preconditions. The best contribution which hon. Members opposite could make to the cause of peace in Vietnam is not constantly to pull at the American coat tails but to bring to bear any influence they may have on the Hanoi Government to persuade them that the only way to restore peace to their unhappy country is to agree to come without preconditions to the conference table.
  Mr. Warbey: If the United States Government are willing to end hostilities
  1730
  and come to the conference table, and have been so willing, as the right hon. Gentleman claims, for a long time, can he explain why it is that the latest attempt to get peace negotiations going between Hanoi and the Americans and other parties—the attempt in which Professor la Pira was involved—was frustrated and answered by the bombing of Haiphong?
  Mr. Soames: When I first read the reports of this incident, my first reaction was that perhaps the Hanoi Government were putting out peace feelers and I hoped that that was so. But the next day it was made perfectly clear that this was not the view of the Hanoi Government. I am quite clear in my mind that if the Hanoi Government wish to talk peace they will find the means of making that abundantly clear throughout the world.
  Mr. Warbey Mr. Warbey rose——
  Mr. Soames: I am quite aware that the hon. Member will not be dissuaded from what he believes, which is something completely different, but I assure him that it is firmly believed by this country as a whole that it is only an agreement to come to the conference table by the Hanoi Government without preconditions which can lead to peace.
  Meanwhile, we would like to know the Government's reaction to the request which Mr. Dean Rusk is reported to have made at the N.A.T.O. conference in Paris last week for medical aid in Vietnam. We are all deeply disturbed by the sufferings of the Vietnamese people and I ask the Government to consider, perhaps with other Commonwealth Governments, whether a Red Cross mission, be it from this country alone or one in Commonwealth terms, could be sent to Saigon to give succour and aid, especially perhaps to children.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will recall that, on 9th December, in reply to a Question, I said that we had already sent a very distinguished medical representative to Vietnam to see what could be done through humanitarian assistance, such as medical assistance.
  Mr. Soames: That was before Mr. Rusk's request to N.A.T.O. and I hope that the Government will be able to tell us more about it during the debate.

  1731
  I do not believe that there is any difference or lack of understanding between the British and United States Governments over the desire to end hostilities and bring about a peace conference in Vietnam or about how it should be brought about, but I wonder whether there is equal understanding on what should be the long-term policies of the two Governments in South-East Asia.
  We cannot yet tell when the Hanoi Government will agree to talk peace. Nor can we as yet see the end of the confrontation with Indonesia in which we are involved in Malaysia, although, as the Foreign Secretary said, there are perhaps some hopeful signs there and certainly the forceful manner in which the Indonesians have dealt with their Communist Party must give us heart and hope in this situation, especially for our troops out there who have done their job so well in such difficult conditions.
  But even when hostilities in Malaysia and Vietnam are over, pressures and dangers will remain in the Far East. One has only to read the speeches of the Chinese leaders to see that they have every intention of maintaining whatever pressures they can on the independent States of South-East Asia. Of course, it is our hope that over the years China will agree to renounce war as a means of achieving her ambitions and will seek peaceful co-existence. But as yet the reverse is true and so we must face the facts that flow from it.
  Mr. Orme Mr. Orme rose——
  Mr. Soames: I would sooner get on. Many other hon. Members wish to speak. The facts that flow from this situation call for cohesion of policy and decision by the free world in the Far East and this has been hitherto noticeably lacking. Faced after the war with the threat of Communist expansion in Europe, the free world responded by creating N.A.T.O. This has resulted in a degree of international unity of purpose and action, both political and military, which, though by no means perfect, has hitherto proved remarkably effective under the stresses and strains of the last 15 years.
  Today the threat to world peace from the expansionist policies of China, backed, as they will be, by increasing nuclear strength, presents potentially the gravest danger to the rest of the world.
  1732
  Yet there is so far a total lack of any concerted plan within the free world to meet this threat in the long term and no vestige of any agreed political purpose. But these are sorely needed.
  In the long term, the contribution which this country could or should make to this need in economic and military terms is bound to be small in relation to the total requirement. The United States has no desire to be left on its own and to carry all the heavy responsibility of decision-making. I believe that we have the opportunity of exerting an influence out of all proportion to our physical contribution over decisions that will prove to be of the greatest moment —decisions which could determine perhaps whether the free world pursues policies which could lead eventually to co-existence with China or policies which could lead to a collision course.
  Yesterday, in the Press, it was reported that this thought was in the Prime Minister's mind when he had some discussions in Washington with President Johnson and I hope that tomorrow the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether he agrees with what I have said and if so, what initiative he has in mind to take with the United States and other Governments to get agreement on long-term political objectives in South-East Asia and on the decisions which would need to flow from such an agreement.
  Mr. David Ennals: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should increase our defence commitments in the Far East? If he does, how does he square that view with the views of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), who is the Opposition's spokesman on defence?
  Mr. Soames: I did not talk in terms of what our military contributions should be in the long term in the Far East. I was making the valid and important point that the long-term situation in the Far East was one which we should look at in concert with our allies and that we should endeavour to bring about as cohesive a policy for the free world as a whole in the Far East as we have succeeded in doing in Europe.
  Mr. Orme Mr. Orme rose——
  Mr. Soames: No. Many hon. Members wish to speak and it is already late.

  1733
  I wish to turn now to the Arabian Peninsula. Although the situation in Aden has deteriorated since we last debated these matters, events in the Yemen have taken a notably better turn. The agreement which King Feisal, with great diplomatic skill, arrived at with President Nasser, under which all Egyptian troops will be withdrawn from the Yemen during the course of the next 12 months, to be followed by the holding of free elections, could go a long way to relieving tension in the area. If the Haradh conference could be brought to a successful conclusion, there would seem to be good prospects thereafter of a government being set up in the Yemen which would take a responsible view towards an Aden Federation.
  In our view, the Government were right to suspend the constitution in Aden. Indeed, they had no alternative. But they surely felt at that time, with hindsight, that they should have acted sooner in taking a grip on the terrorism and subversion which had been allowed to take a mounting toll of British and Arab lives. It is vital that the Government should demonstrate beyond doubt to all concerned that they are determined to stamp out terrorism and to carry out the policies agreed at the London conference in the summer of 1964. Given that and given the withdrawal of Egyptian troops from the Yemen, could it be that we are within sight of reaping the benefits, at last, in the form of greater peace and stability in the area, of the policies which we have pursued in the Arabian Peninsula over the years, with all the difficulties and burden of cost which they have placed upon us? In the meanwhile, an essential factor is a strong British military presence in the area. We believe that it is the Government's duty to maintain a level of forces which leaves no doubt of our determination, or of our ability, to fulfil our responsibilities there on behalf—let it be well noted abroad—not only of ourselves but of the common good.
  I turn now to N.A.T.O. Even those who in the past have been the bitterest opponents of N.A.T.O. must at least admit that the policies which the West has pursued, of a combination of strength and good will, have been successful so far in notably reducing tension between East and West in Europe. Now that the
  1734
  split between Moscow and Peking appears to be deep and lasting, the Soviet Government must look East as well as West. It has lost that central control of a solid Communist bloc which was formerly so valuable to it in dealing with a group of Western allies who had to concert their plans in common.
  Moreover, the Russian leaders seem to have drawn the firm conclusion that war must be ruled out as a means of achieving world revolution. Indeed, this is the main charge which Communist China now hurls against them. These are all good reasons for the Soviet Government to seek a lowering of tension on its European and Atlantic flank, not from any idealistic or sentimental motives but strictly for reasons of self-interest—and they are none the worse for that.
  This must not lead us to forget that the Soviet Government remains as adamant and as unyielding as ever on many of the major issues which still divide us, and to dismantle our defences or to squander our collective unity in N.A.T.O. would leave the West wide open once more to Soviet pressure.
  At the same time, N.A.T.O. is now clearly undergoing serious stresses and strains within it which must be resolved. First, President de Gaulle has made it clear that changes will have to be made in the arrangements of the Alliance if France is to remain in it, and he has shown his hostility to command integration which is a very bulwark of the Alliance. This could raise serious problems for N.A.T.O. Secondly, there is the highly important problem of nuclear sharing in N.A.T.O., which in turn is inevitably linked with the question of a non-proliferation treaty.
  There never has been and nor is there any difference of view between the two sides of the House on the urgent need for a non-dissemination agreement. But the Russians made it clear some while back that they would refuse to join in any non-dissemination agreement unless Western plans for an international N.A.T.O. nuclear force in any shape or form were dropped. They insisted, as I understand it, that any such scheme must mean extending control over nuclear weapons to non-nuclear European allies and to Germany in particular, in spite of all the steps taken by the right hon. Gentleman to dissuade them of this.

  1735
  It was against this background that the Foreign Secretary expressed some views at a Press conference in New York early last month which were and are of the greatest interest. He said:
  "M.L.F., A.N.F., or other possible arrangements within N.A.T.O. for consulting about strategy as a whole, they are only useful if they add to the efficiency of N.A.T.O. We have got to ask ourselves of any particular proposal on the one hand how far does it add to the efficiency of N.A.T.O. On the other hand, to what extent might it be an obstacle to a major advance in agreement between ourselves and the powers of Eastern Europe.
  It is I think an open question at the moment whether M.L.F. or A.N.F. really have the balance of advantage when you weigh up how much they add to N.A.T.O. or how much they might endanger the possibilities of an agreement with the East. I think N.A.T.O. has to look at this whole matter now with a fresh mind."
  That is what the Foreign Secretary is reported to have said in New York and it showed a considerable change in Government thinking.
  A year ago, after featuring prominently in the election campaign their decision to abandon our independent nuclear deterrent, the Government put forward their ideas of an Atlantic Nuclear Force. As I see it, it seemed to them that it would serve three purposes. First, they presumably regarded it as a serious contribution to the discussion on nuclear sharing. Secondly, they saw it as providing, as it were, a receptacle into which they could place much of our existing and future nuclear deterrent, thus making a semblance of fulfilling their election pledge. Thirdly, by avowing that meaningful discussion of the proposals must await the German elections, which were 12 months after the Government first announced their A.N.F. proposals, they won a year's respite from criticism by their Left Wing that their deeds were not matching their words and promises about disposal of our deterrent. Yet, hardly were the German elections over than the Foreign Secretary was casting doubt on the value of the whole proposal. I had hoped that he would tell us more today of whether it had been finally abandoned, or whether it was still on the table as a live proposal.
  There is surely no room for disagreement between us that more nuclear-
  1736
  sharing machinery in some form is necessary in the interests of preserving the unity of the Western Alliance. To ignore this need or to barter it for the possibility of an agreement with Russia on a non-dissemination treaty would be totally irresponsible.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus Mr. K. Zilliacus (Manchester, Gorton) rose——
  Mr. Soames: The question to which we should address ourselves is whether a solution can be found to the nuclear-sharing problem to the benefit of the Alliance as a whole which is not incompatible with the conclusion of a nonproliferation treaty. There are three propositions on the table. There is the M.L.F., there is the A.N.F. and there is Mr. McNamara's proposal for a special committee which would ensure a greater sharing of all nuclear planning through the committee within the Alliance. Of the three, it has been apparent to us for some time that the committee solution has much to commend it and that the creation of a new nuclear force, be it A.N.F. or M.L.F., has many disadvantages.
  Three spring readily to mind. First, it would not appear to be either necessary or sensible from a military point of view to create a new international nuclear force. Indeed, the support for this concept from military advisers within the Ministries of Defence of the Alliance, other than Germany, is, to say the least, hard to find. Secondly, the Foreign Secretary apparently takes the view that to create such a force would make a nonproliferation treaty even harder to get. It may prove impossible to resolve N.A.T.O.'s nuclear sharing problem without jeopardising such a treaty, but we certainly owe it to ourselves and to succeeding generations to find if we can a solution which is or should be compatible with the wider agreement on nonproliferation. Our third objection to A.N.F. or M.L.F. is that the problem of nuclear sharing which now confronts us in Europe will arise later, whether we like it or not, in other parts of the world; so the solution which we decide upon in Europe is likely to set a precedent for other parts of the world. I do not believe that a number of mililateral nuclear naval forces with mixed manned components sailing the different oceans is likely to

  1737
  commend itself as a whole to the British people.
  These three reasons have seemed to us for some time now to be very real disadvantages to what is termed the hardware solution to the nuclear sharing problem.
  On the other hand, the theme of a more intimate sharing of nuclear planning within the alliance through the special committee would seem to us to have the seeds of a solution which could, and I believe should, be acceptable to the alliance as a whole, and indeed, the recent debates, in the Bundestag seemed to show that the Germans were themselves coming around to this view. It would also be a solution which would certainly not be regarded by the Russians as incompatible with the non-proliferation treaty if they have a real will to achieve one, and it s also one which could set a good and workmanlike precedent if and when similar problems have to be resolved elsewhere in the world.
  Therefore, it is our hope that the Government will give their full support to the committee proposal even though in losing the A.N.F. they would lose the receptacle which they consider would be internationalising our deterrent, to use the Prime Minister's word. It would seem now that the best chance of winning the twin prizes of a solution to the nuclear sharing problem and the non-proliferation treaty would be through the committee proposal, and it is, therefore, our view that only if this proves incapable of satisfying the N.A.T.O. Alliance, and only then, should the question of an international nuclear force be reconsidered, and it would be our hope that the Government, in the weeks and months ahead, while this is being discussed at great length in Washington and in the European capitals, will put their weight behind the committee proposal.
  Before leaving this question of nonproliferation I must say a word about the Foreign Secretary's visit to Moscow to which he referred again today. The statement which he made on his return showed., as we saw it, that he had not, in fact, been able to make progress on any of the major issues between ourselves and Moscow. I do not believe he can be blamed for that, because it is quite clear to us that this was not the moment at which we could hope for anything much
  1738
  more than civilities. Perhaps the Foreign Secretary was expecting this, but, nevertheless, for one reason or another, he thought it wise to make his visit, and I am sure his appearance on television explaining the facts of life of nonproliferation and nuclear sharing to the Russian people was worth while and valuable.
  But the question which I want to raise is about the proposed meeting between Mr. Kosygin and the Prime Minister. If so little progress was made on the major topics on the Foreign Secretary's visit, what is expected to come out of the Prime Minister's meeting with Mr. Kosygin? What is the aim of the meeting? What would it settle? About what? And is the Foreign Secretary of the opinion, following on the talks which he had in Moscow recently, that a meeting in the near future is likely to be fruitful and helpful? If so, if we can really make progress with a non-proliferation treaty, if sufficient preparatory work has been done to make the Government feel that now is the time for a personal meeting between the Prime Minister and Mr. Kosygin, then, of course, we would welcome it, but we find it hard to imagine what good such a meeting can do at this point of time while Russia is taking the line she is over Vietnam and the extent to which this is affecting the relationship between Moscow and London.
  I hope and believe at least that the Prime Minister realises that we would fully understand if he decided to postpone the meeting till the time seemed more propitious, because I believe that meetings between heads of Governments, unless the preparatory work has been done and unless it looks as if something beneficial can come out of them, can he not only nonproductive but even counter-productive.
  Lastly, a word on the situation in the E.E.C. The withdrawal of the French Government last June from the discussions on the Commission's proposals for a common agricultural policy and her refusal thereafter to participate in the Community's business faces the Community with its gravest crisis yet. There is, I believe, general agreement in this House that we wish the Community well in its endeavours to resolve these differences in these circumstances as it has in the past.

  1739
  However, five countries, other than France, have taken up an unequivocal attitude. They have affirmed their determination to pursue the fulfilment of the Treaty of Rome and invited the French to attend a meeting of Ministers to discuss how this may best be achieved, and now that the Presidential elections in France are over it is reasonable to suppose that the French Government's attitude to the continued progress of the E.E.C. will be made known shortly. Then events could move fast.
  The Government must be aware that our friends in Europe who are anxious to do all they can to facilitate our eventual joining of the E.E.C. have in the present situation an exceptionally delicate and difficult hand to play, but how can we expect them to keep our interests in the forefront of their minds if they are uncertain of what is the present Government's attitude to our joining the Common Market if and when the opportunity occurs? This point has been put to me and to my hon. and right hon. Friends time and time again and recently by our friends in Europe, and the Government must surely be aware of it.
  It is indeed small wonder that there is deep uncertainty on the Continent as to where the British Government stand. The Prime Minister is on record as saying that arrangements we could have got during the Brussels negotiations were unacceptable. The insistence by the Labour party on its three conditions is generally interpreted, rightly or wrongly, as being wholly negative. It is not sufficient for the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary merely to say that some of them seem to be getting easier. He thought that E.F.T.A. minded less if we joined the Common Market, but that was the situation years ago.
  Then what is all this about agriculture? Does he mean that he does not think that the agriculture support system within the E.E.C. is such as to enable our home agriculture to flourish, or is it purely a question of the levies and the transference of the levies to Commission funds? These generalisations that the question of British agriculture does not look any easier, and so on, tend to be interpreted woefully on the Continent.
  What about the question of having a total independence for all economic plan-
  1740
  ning? How can that be fitted into an economic treaty? The Government must realise that what they have to do, if they wish to join the E.E.C. at some time in the future, is to create the impression in Europe that they desire to do so. At present the position is one of total uncertainty. The Conservative Party's desire to see Britain join the Community is clearly understood in Europe, but where, it is asked, does the Labour Party stand?
  During the next few months, decisions of great moment affecting the future of Europe are likely to be taken. If the Government take the opportunity to make it clear where they think Britain's interests lie in regard to Europe—and I hope that the Prime Minister will take that opportunity tomorrow—this debate will have been both timely and worthwhile.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Henderson: First of all, I should like to reassure the right hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) about the proposed visit of the Prime Minister to Moscow. What does he think that the Foreign Secretary was doing, amongst other things, during his recent visit? He was doing the same thing as Conservative Foreign Secretaries did when they went to prepare the ground for a visit by their Prime Minister. I am quite sure that when the Prime Minister visits Mr. Kosygin, as I hope he will be able to do in a very short while, the ground will be fully prepared.
  The right hon. Gentleman dealt with the question of a non-proliferation agreement. I found myself in a measure of agreement with him when he indicated that he was prepared to sacrifice the Conservative concept of an M.L.F. which they accepted from the United States and also the A.N.F. which was put forward by Her Majesty's present Government, provided that it would be possible to secure such agreement on the basis of what is called the nuclear committee proposed by Mr. McNamara, the United States Minister of Defence.
  The difficulty is that the Russians have made it clear time and time again that they are not prepared to enter into any non-proliferation agreement if there is an arrangement in N.A.T.O. which provides for the access of West Germany to the nuclear weapon.

  1741
  I would not be averse to putting forward the view that the committee proposed by Mr. McNamara does not give any access, certainly to the nuclear trigger. But the difficulty will be to persuade the Soviet Government that that is the position. All that I can say, as I have said before, is that I believe that the securing of a non-proliferation agreement is so vitally important that no question of new nuclear arrangements should be allowed to stand in the way.
  Under the present arrangements in N.A.T.O., the deterrent which is largely under the control of the United States is sufficient for all purposes of safeguarding the security of the West and of making its contribution as a deterrent towards maintaining the peace of the world. But that is the problem that we are going to have to face if we ask the Russians to accept the concept based on what the right hon. Gentleman called the McNamara proposals.
  The other point which he made and to which I would like to refer is his suggestion that we should enter into a cohesive policy with the United States in order to contain what he called China's expansionism. The Americans might say that that has not been a good proposal because of the precedent that already exists. Many people in this country condemn the Americans for having troops in Vietnam, yet they are there under a treaty to which we are a party —S.E.A.T.O.—at the invitation of the Government of South Vietnam and in accordance with the provisions of that Treaty, one of which is that any one of the three former territories which composed Indo-China should be eligible for protection in the event of aggression.
  One of the main problems with which we are faced today is what I call the covert or hidden form of aggression and what others call "movements of liberation". One could imagine China or some other country one day forming a liberation front with a view to "liberating" this or any other country. I believe that we have to face up to what is a practical problem, because already we are told in the newspapers that a liberation committee has been formed with respect to Thailand, and presumably if the United States were to pull out of South Vietnam so that the whole of South Vietnam fell into the
  1742
  hands of North Vietnam with China behind her, we would probably have to face up to the same problem again in Thailand.
  When we talk about having arrangements with the United States to contain Chinese expansionism in the Far East, the right hon. Gentleman stresses political rather than military arrangements, but I believe that they should be economical as well as political, because it is the failure to raise the standards of living of the teeming millions in the Far East and Africa which makes those areas such fertile ground for Communist propaganda.
  I want now to say a word about Rhodesia, and I would like to say how much I welcomed the statement of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the imposition of an oil sanction against Southern Rhodesia. Those of us who attended the Commonwealth Parliamentarians' conference in Wellington a few weeks ago could not help being impressed with the way in which the African delegations were almost supercharged with emotion about the Government's refusal, rightly in my view, to use force against Southern Rhodesia. But they expressed doubts time and time again whether the British Government and the British people were really more than halfhearted in their desire and in their policies to end the rebellion headed by Mr. Ian Smith.
  A resolution was passed by the United Nations Security Council a few weeks ago which indicated that the oil sanctions should be imposed. We have been told by the Foreign Secretary that our Government proposed the establishment of a committee to consider ways and means of dealing with the situation, but that that committeee has not been constituted. I believe that oil sanctions more than anything else, would convince sceptical Africans—short of using military force of course—that we have a common objective. It would convince Africans, Asians and other people who are concerned with the rights of humanity that we are determined to prevent those in charge of the de facto government in Rhodesia getting away with what they have sought to do. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker) was in this House in 1935, at the time when the League of Nations imposed an

  1743
  oil sanction on Italy because she had brutally invaded Abyssinia. I can only hope that we are going to secure more genuine co-operation from those who are in a position to make their contribution to a successful imposition of oil sanctions than was the case in 1935.
  I propose now to say a few words about South Vietnam. I do not propose to go into the background of this terrible conflict. I believe that it is another example of the fact that until the world is prepared to honour its international obligations situations may arise where, in defence of the security of the free world, it is necessary for a powerful country like the United States to take the kind of action that she has taken in South Vietnam. It is not a question of arguing whether United States troops should be in Vietnam or not. In my view what we have to do is to realise that until all the countries of the world honour their contractual obligations, this is the sort of terrible situation in which we will find ourselves.
  The trouble in this case is that an international agreement has been breached, and indeed breached by both sides. The North Vietnamese breached it in 1962 by sending their regular soldiers and trained and equipped guerrillas, into South Vietnam. South Vietnam did not carry out one of the provisions of the agreement arrived at at the Geneva Conference in 1954, namely, the provision that within two years there should be consultations between the two parts of Vietnam with a view to free elections leading to reunification.
  The problem with which we are faced today is that of getting back to the essentials of the 1954 Agreement. I do not believe that there is a wide abyss between the North Vietnam Government and their published four-point programme on the one hand, and the statements made by President Johnson and other spokesmen for the United States on the other. I have looked very carefully at the four-point programme put forward by the North Vietnamese. There is no real evidence to suggest that the United States has to accept and implement all four points before North Vietnam will agree to a conference. The sooner the North Vietnamese agree to attend a conference, the better it will be for them, because at
  1744
  the moment they are mainly responsible for the war in that area. I believe that those four points are put forward as the basis on which North Vietnamese representatives would rest their case at a conference, but of course at such a conference there would be representatives from the South Vietnam Government and, as at any conference, they would have their basis for negotiation.
  The North Vietnam Government have said that they want all foreign troops out of the country, and all foreign bases removed. They want the people of North and South Vietnam to have the right to elections. Whether they will be free elections in North Vietnam I do not know, but that is what they say. They want changes so that the people of both parts of Vietnam can decide their future. President Johnson has said that the United States Government are in favour of free elections under international supervision. Mr. Dean Rusk has said repeatedly that the United States Government are not interested in maintaining their troops in South Vietnam after peace has been restored and reasonable guarantees have been given for the people of South Vietnam. It therefore seems to me that there is a basis for a conference.
  Reference has been made this afternoon—and it has been referred to also in the Press—to the controversy about whether the United States on the one hand, or the North Vietnam Government on the other, have put out feelers for peace. I believe that we are getting a poisoned atmosphere as a result of the maladroit handling of this question of getting the two sides to attend a conference, and I hope that my hon. Friend will reply to the point that I have made about the doubts and misgivings which I and many other people have about the way in which this matter has been handled.
  We were told that in August of last year U Thant, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, as a result of a proposal that he had made, was able to secure from the Government of Hanoi a readiness to enter into discussions, and that the United States Government rejected that suggestion because they did not think it was genuine. Why did not the United States Government find out whether it was genuine or not? Surely it is far better to test a suggestion like that

  1745
  than to continue the carnage, bloodshed and death that is going on and affecting thousands of men, women and children in Vietnam?
  We are told later that U Thant had told the United States that he would propose a ceasefire, and that he offered to allow the United States' authorities to settle truce lines and the terms of that ceasefire. We then heard that that proposal, too, was declined by the United States Government.
  We have now heard about the letter from Signor Fanfani, and the reply by Mr. Dean Rusk. What was the object of publishing those letters? They are being used almost to prove that the Government of Hanoi are privately suggesting that they want peace, and then putting them in the position of having publicly to repudiate any such suggestion. No one need suggest that the North Vietnamese Government have put forward a peace offer. I hope that through diplomatic channels, and without undue publicity, we can get contact between Washington, Saigon and Hanoi, which may result in a meeting between representatives of the three Governments.
  Mr. Philip Goodhart: It is possible to criticise the Americans for not publishing anything about the supposed earlier peace bid, and also to criticise them for not publishing anything about the supposed peace feeler that has come to them via Signor Fanfani, but it is surely difficult to criticise them both for publishing and not for publishing, in precisely the same speech.
  Mr. Henderson: I am sorry, but the hon. Member has it wrong. I did not criticise them for not publishing the two proposals made in August last year. I criticised them for not accepting them, and that is a very different thing. I hope that I may be allowed to criticise the Americans, having always made it clear that I think that they are absolutely within their rights, under S.E.A.T.O., to have their troops in South Vietnam. Surely I can criticise them when I think that they are acting in a maladroit way, as they have been acting in their handling of these peace proposals.
  Pope Paul yesterday made a call for a Christmas truce. I believe that that call would be welcomed by every man
  1746
  and woman in the civilised world. It is vital that at a time of good will like Christmas there should not be this bitter, fierce conflict raging in Vietnam. Most hon. Members know that if a country goes into a war it has to accept the consequences, and that even if the country is on the weaker side it must still accept the consequences. I would like to see the United States indicate another suspension of bombing. They did this for five days in August. They may say that they had no response then, but let them try again. Let them relate it to the truce for which the Pope has asked, and in respect of which I understand that the Government of North Vietnam have made some offer. Let them make it clear that they will suspend their bombing for a specified period—much longer than five days—not as a condition of anything, but in the hope that some response will come from North Vietnam.
  There may be no response. North Vietnam may continue infiltrating their guerrillas into South Vietnam, and may go on encircling strongpoints. But let the United States make it quite clear that they will suspend any bombing following this truce—if it can be arranged—and will stop sending in reinforcements. We would then expect North Vietnam to make its contribution by stopping its infiltration. This effort may fail, but is it not worth trying? Is it not worth a supreme effort to end this deadlock?—because that is what it is. Neither side is able to extricate itself from the terrible morass that has been created in that country. Is it not worth while, in the interests of millions of ordinary men, women and children whose happiness has been destroyed for the time being as a result of this terrible conflict?
  I hope that in the not too distant future we may be able to reconvene the Geneva Conference. If I were able to reach the Government of the Soviet Union in Moscow I would appeal to them to play their part in co-operating with Her Majesty's Government in their attempt to secure a reconvening of the Geneva Conference so that, once more, an attempt could be made, based essentially on the 1954 Agreement, to restore the unhappy country of North and South Vietnam to a condition of peace.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Royle: I am glad to be able to follow the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson), as I had the privilege of following him when I made my maiden speech six years ago. Hon. Members on this side of the House admire the way in which he has supported his Front Bench in its policy on South Vietnam in past months. We have been interested to hear some of his ideas for getting peace negotiations going and finding some way of bringing to an end the war which has been going on in Vietnam for so long. We all have great admiration for the Foreign Secretary personally. We have all greatly admired, during the past year, the staunch support that he, together with the Prime Minister, has given to our Allies throughout the world, and particularly the courageous way in which he has followed up the Government's policy of supporting the United States in South Vietnam.
  All who know Vietnam well—and I have been there on two occasions—recognise the difficulties, and the confusion that must exist in the minds of many people who have not been there in understanding the difficulties, which the Americans and the South Vietnam Government face.
  Secondly, I welcome the Foreign Secretary's comments on his visit to South America. I know that the fact that he plans to hold a conference of British representatives in Lima, Peru, will be greatly welcomed by the Peruvian Government and people. They are probably closer to us than any other South American nation. They have traded with us for many years. Indeed, it was a British admiral who obtained their independence in 1820. It is nice to think that the first Foreign Secretary to visit that Continent should be holding an important meeting of our ambassadors in Lima.
  Those of my hon. Friends who are interested in foreign affairs must, however, view with gloom the Government's lack of success in the past year. We have had an able and interesting speech from the Foreign Secretary, but he left us with the impression that he thought that his efforts had been—or would be in the near future—crowned with success around the globe. We all remem-
  1748
  ber the Prime Minister, prior to the election over a year ago, making it plain that if a Labour Administration were elected to power they would make Britain count in the world, implying that the Conservative Government had not done so. What has happened over the past year?
  I want to return for a second to Vietnam. Although the Government have supported American policy there their efforts for peace cannot be counted as having been crowned with success. There was the suggestion that there should he a Commonwealth Prime Minister's mission to North Vietnam, but it never got off the ground. To many hon. Members on this side of the House, and to many people throughout the country, it appeared to be a political gimmick on the part of the Prime Minister to quieten the members of the Left wing of the Labour Party.
  There was then the suggestion that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance should go to Hanoi. This also seemed to be an unwise move, because in foreign affairs it is surely always wrong to send someone to negotiate with another country unless the ground has been prepared. His mission inevitably failed. This point was made this afternoon by my right hon. Friend regarding the Foreign Secretary's visit to Moscow.
  To turn to Malaysia. Here, confrontation continues, and it was under the present Administration, during last year, that Singapore broke away from Malaysia, presenting the British Government with a very serious situation in South-East Asia. As far as I can see there are no signs yet of Her Majesty's Government making any move to strengthen the position of Malaysia, politically rather than militarily, in her confrontation with Indonesia, in face of the very grave challenges which she is going to have to meet during the years ahead.
  I thought it extraordinary that the subject of Kashmir was not mentioned by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. Here, for the first time, there was a full-scale war between two Commonwealth countries; the argument that this is a foreign affairs debate and we ought not to discuss Commonwealth matters cannot be applied to Kashmir, because the interests

  1749
  of China and the Soviet Union make it very much a foreign affairs problem. We on this side of the House who know and are interested in Asia wonder what the Government's policy is on Kashmir. Is there any thinking going on by the Government to see how this difficult problem could be resolved? Most of us were shocked that the Prime Minister made no apparent move to try to bring the two sides together when the war was at its height. Here were two Commonwealth nations fighting each other, for the first time in history. Who was the man who brought about peace between them? Not the Prime Minister, not the Commonwealth Secretary, not the Foreign Secretary. It was U Thant, the Secretary General of the United Nations.
  It is depressing to find and to hear of the bitter hatred which seems to have been left behind, particularly in India, as a result of the Government's attitude on Kashmir. Among the suggestions put forward for solving the Kashmir dispute is one of making Kashmir an independent State, guaranteed by both India and Pakistan. This agreement could be reached with the aid of the Soviet Union. There are many other proposals, and I would like to know what the Government's thinking is on this. The Himalayas is the one place in the world where the Soviet Union and Great Britain could join with the United States with the aim of setting up some new security arrangement, a new guarantee for the countries of South East Asia, against the ever-spreading might of Chinese Communism. I hope that some thought will be given to this.
  Another country not mentioned at all by the Foreign Secretary was Cyprus. Those of us who know Cyprus well were surprised that there has been no move made for the last twelve months by the Government or any suggestion or any policy put forward in an attempt to find a solution to this grave and difficult problem in the Eastern Mediterranean. Particularly since so many of our troops and their families are living on the island and we are subscribing troops to the United Nations force stationed in Cyprus. What is the Government's attitude to this? Are we going to support a renewal of the U.N. force after the end of the year? It is strange that no statement has been made public on arranging
  1750
  a round table conference between Turkey, Greece and the Turkish and Greek Cypriot communities, since matters have been dormant for so long. The Turkish-Cypriot community is living in grave difficulties and the problems and miseries which are being suffered by much of the Turkish population on the island are grave. I do not think that this is fully recognised by Her Majesty's Government.
  Over the weekend I have done a certain amount of research about statements made by the Labour Party on foreign policy over the past year or so. One of the matters which has concerned me has been the problem of disarmament. I am sure that the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs remembers this statement very well:
  "First and foremost will come our initiative in the field of disarmament. We are convinced that the time is opportune for a new break-through in the disarmament negotiations, releasing scarce resources and manpower desperately needed to raise living conditions throughout the world.
  We shall appoint a Minister in the Foreign Office with special responsibility for disarmament to take a new initiative in the Disarmament Committee, in association with our friends and Allies. We have put forward constructive proposals:

  (i) To stop the spread of nuclear weapons.

  (ii) To establish nuclear free zones in Africa, Latin America and Central Europe.

  (iii) To achieve controlled reductions in manpower and arms.

  (iv) To stop the private sale of arms.

  (v) To establish an international disarmament agency to supervise a disarmament treaty."

  I know the hon. Gentleman will recognise that extract from the Labour Party manifesto, and no doubt he views with gloom the lack of success in achieving any of the promises mentioned in it. But one promise has been achieved. There has been the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, as Minister of State responsible for disarmament. I do not think that this received the 'overwhelming support of the hon. Gentleman, because at Question Time last week he seemed to consider that the sole achievement of his noble Friend had been to set up a disarmament section of the Foreign Office.
  On this side of the House we have viewed with great concern the lack of any progress made by the Minister of State in charge of disarmament. We

  1751
  read in the Press of him swanning here and flying there. We read that he was in Japan only a fortnight ago, lecturing at the university. We read in vain for any sign of a new disarmament initiative by him. We are not sorry that there has been no setting up of nuclear free zones. I do not agree that the setting up of such zones is practicable, but all of us wish to see some progress made in multilateral disarmament.
  I realise that this foreign affairs debate has been somewhat overlaid by the Rhodesian situation and the statement made by the Prime Minister. I also understand that during the past few weeks, since U.D.I., Government policy has tended to be dominated by the Rhodesian question. In spite of this I must make two more quotations. One is from the Labour Party manifesto dealing with the United Nations. It reads:
  "…our most important effort will be concerned to revive the morale and increase the powers of the United Nations. Every year that has passed since the Conservatives came to power has seen Britain's influence in the United Nations decline."
  Having seen on television the walk-out of delegates in the United Nations when the Prime Minister was making his speech last week, it did not make one feel that Britain's influence in the United Nations had increased, and it hardly supports the view that a Labour Government has enabled Britain's voice to count for more in the United Nations.
  At the Labour Party conference this year the Prime Minister claimed, during the debate on foreign affairs on 29th September, that Britain was leading in disarmament and that no nation was doing more for the United Nations. He claimed that Her Majesty's Government had made the Commonwealth, "a positive instrument for world peace". Over the weekend I was surprised to read in the Sunday Times a quotation by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon (Mr. Francis Noel-Baker). He said, in his constituency, that Britain might be better off without some
  "ill-assorted, demanding partners in the Commonwealth. Sentiment apart, the Commonwealth must give real practical advantages to all its members, including Britain. If it does not it is merely a damaging hangover from our imperial past, which if Britain wants to participate in the modern world, we must bury and forget."
  1752
  Those who understood that the Labour Party supported the Commonwealth through and through must have raised an eyebrow at this comment.
  I confess to sharing, reluctantly, some of the views of the hon. Member for Swindon. Those of us who have always felt and believed that the multi-racial Commonwealth which has been set up following the ending of the British Empire would be a force for good will and peace between the richer white countries of the Northern Hemisphere and the dark and poorer countries of the Southern Hemisphere must be depressed and concerned that this is unlikely to happen during the years ahead.
  Today's debate is on foreign affairs. It would therefore be wrong for me to talk about Rhodesia at length. But it would also be wrong not to touch on Rhodesia before I move on to the main point which I want to make, which is to do with Europe. Over the past weeks I have reluctantly supported Her Majesty's Government in their policy on the unilateral declaration of independence by Rhodesia. I have done so having travelled widely in the old Federation of Nyasaland, Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia.
  But I confess that I have grave doubts about the wisdom of the oil sanctions announced this afternoon by the Prime Minister. I think that all of us are opposed to the use of force to settle the Rhodesian question. The Prime Minister has made clear to the House on numerous occasions that he is also opposed to the use of force. Therefore, it has always seemed to me that it would be wisest to take those economic measures which made it unlikely that they would escalate rapidly into forcing this country to retract that policy. The introduction of oil sanctions must lead to the point of escalation at which we might well have to use force, which, I think, is turned down by both sides of the House as a means of defeating the illegal Government in Rhodesia.
  Secondly, I have grave doubts about whether the sanctions can be effective. They can be effective only if they are supported by both Portuguese East Africa and the Union of South Africa. So far it seems most unlikely that they will support them. What do we do if they do not support them? Do we go on to blockade the port of Beira and the

  1753
  ports of South Africa? Have we the ships to do this on our own? If not, do we bring in other countries to help us out? If we are resisted by the Portuguese or the South Africans, are we prepared to open fire? This is the beginning of a dangerous escalation which will give concern to all those who have been supporting the Government.
  Thirdly, there is another aspect which gives us, all great concern. The Government's contingency planning from the beginning of U.D.I. seems to many to have been deplorable. No contingency planning appeared to have been taken before U.D.I. to set up a radio station which could broadcast successfully to Rhodes a. Only a week or ten days after the announcement of U.D.I., were hurried, last minute, arrangements made to set up a radio station in Bechuanaland. I am doubtful whether even now it has started to broadcast.
  Added to this, we read in the newspapers over the last fortnight of new committees and of rushed visits by Ministers to Zambia and other parts of Africa to get contingency planning going—whether to carry petrol and oil into Zambia, to improve the roads, or to discuss new methods of bringing economic sanctions to bear. This has given the impression to those not in the Government that there has been a disastrous lack of contingency planning by the Government over the last six months to deal with a situation which might arise on the unilateral declaration of independence.
  For these reasons, I confess that I have grave reservations and doubts about the announcement made by the Prime Minister this afternoon.
  Lastly, I turn to the main point which I want to make, and that is to do with Europe. It is, and must be, in Europe where this country's future lies. Those of us who feel, and have felt strongly for many years, that this is vital were depressed by the grave damage done to E.F.T.A. after the announcement of the import surcharge. Many of us felt that this was a mistake and that the matter was badly handled by lack of consultation. But that is water under the bridge. Those of us who were hoping to see some sign of a change of attitude by the Government in their policy towards the European Economic Community were depressed and confused by the Foreign
  1754
  Secretary's extraordinary statements this afternoon.
  Many of us believed that there was a distinct shifting of the Prime Minister's views on this matter. In the past he had put forward the view that a choice faced this country between supporting the Commonwealth and going into Europe. Those of us who are keen Europeans and believe that we should join the E.E.C. realise that there is no choice involved. But we got the impression over the past few weeks that there was a definite move of Government opinion. I was hopeful that the Prime Minister might be changing his mind and preparing his party, and those of his party, and indeed of my party, who perhaps were not keen on joining Europe, for a new initiative to enter the Common Market. But today, I regret to say, these hopes seem to have been dashed, because the Foreign Secretary appeared to indicate that he was standing firm by the five conditions put forward by the Labour Party for negotiating with the E.E.C., and we all know that some of those conditions make it impossible for negotiations even to start.
  I am happy to say that I do not think that the Minister of State shares the Foreign Secretary's views on this matter. I have a feeling that he is more flexible than the Foreign Secretary. I formed the impression today that the Government were back-tracking and not standing ready to take an initiative on this important issue as soon as possible. It was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) this afternoon.
  In spite of the President of France, and in spite of the difficulties within the E.E.C., I believe that there are still hopeful possibilities. It was said by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon that the Tories were keeping quiet on the prospects of joining the E.E.C. This is untrue; it is quite wrong. Not only have pamphlets been published by many different groups in the Conservative Party in favour of joining the E.E.C., but in the party political document "Putting Britain Right Ahead," which was discussed at our party conference in September, we made it clear that we felt that we should prepare immediately by making our domestic policies ready for signing the Treaty of Rome as soon as the opportunity arose. This is our view. It is my view personally. The

  1755
  Foreign Secretary should get it into his head that we on this side want to join Europe as quickly as possible.
  Mr. Heffer: Would the hon. Gentleman clarify what he is saying? On the one hand, he says that it was damaging to our relationship with E.F.T.A. when we imposed the import surcharge, while on the other he says that we should independently enter the E.E.C. Does he mean that we should enter without consulting our E.F.T.A. colleagues?
  Mr. Royle: I have never said anything of the sort, and the hon. Gentleman knows that only too well. We have always said that we would, of course, carry out E.F.T.A. colleagues with us. I believe that the members of E.F.T.A. wish to join the E.E.C. and that they have even been carrying out parallel negotiations on their own account.
  We have suggested that we should sign the Treaty of Rome, and I personally consider that the bridge building about which we have heard from the Prime Minister from time to time is useless; it is a complete evasion of the real issue. I was glad to hear the Foreign Secretary say at Question Time the other day that, on the question of our joining the E.E.C., he took no Hart in this bridge building, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman had made his views plain to the Prime Minister.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Is it not possible that the Foreign Secretary appeared to be hardened a little this afternoon on the question of our joining the E.E.C., because when the Prime Minister heard about what he had said the other day he called for the Foreign Secretary and straightened him out on this matter?
  Mr. Royle: My hon. Friend has no doubt put his finger on it as usual.
  It is wrong for hon. Members to make destructive criticisms of the Government and not at the same time make some constructive suggestions. It is primarily for the Government to make the constructive suggestions and for the Opposition to oppose, but we have not forgotten that when hon. Gentlemen opposite sat on this side of the House they kept telling us that we should make more constructive proposals.
  1756
  How can we make progress in the coming weeks before the chance comes again to apply to sign the Treaty of Rome and join the E.E.C.? The Foreign Secretary said that we must try to use our influence through groups throughout the world, and I welcomed that statement. Why, therefore, cannot we make greater use of the Western European Union? I confess to an interest here, because I am a member of the British delegation to the W.E.U. It is the one organisation in Europe today where the Six, the members of the E.E.C., are members of an organisation with ourselves—the Seven of us.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), at the recent W.E.U. meeting, produced an impressive report, Document No. 354, which was passed virtually unanimously by that W.E.U. Assembly.
  Mr. Heffer: Only virtually unanimously.
  Mr. Royle: As the hon. Gentleman says, virtually unanimously, because he voted against it. In a European assembly of seven nations, the hon. Gentleman was the only one to vote against it. Other Government members supported it.
  I hope that the Foreign Secretary has read that impressive document produced by my right hon. Friend. It contained two main points, apart from the reorganisation of the Command Structure of N.A.T.O. and nuclear proliferation on the defence side, with which I will not deal today. The first was that greater use should be made in obtaining closer cooperation in the purchase of arms in Europe. The House will agree that Europe has not been receiving its fair share of the arms ordered throughout Europe and in the N.A.T.O. Alliance and that we have been suffering from United States domination in this field.
  I do not consider—and this confirms the theme of my right hon. Friend's document—that we will be able to keep abreast in Europe of scientific and technological progress unless we secure a fair share of allied armament orders and that interdependence does not just mean dependence on the United States, with no "inter" at all, which has been the situation. We must use W.E.U. and endeavour

  1757
  to bring European purchases of arms in America progressively more into balance with American purchases of arms in Europe. A European armaments board should be devised with this end in view. There may be good reasons why Her Majesty's Government are against this being done, and I would be grateful, if this is correct, that the reasons should be announced.
  My right hon. Friend's suggestion was underlined by the Plowden Report which was published last week. It was made quite clear in that that we must get closer to Europe and closer to the aircraft industries of the Continent, notably France and Germany, if we are to obtain a fair share of the Alliance's armaments orders. My right hon. Friend's suggestion is a good one; it should be carefully studied.
  The fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation was able to conclude the Lightning deal the other day is a typical example which underlines what my right hon. Friend was suggesting. My right hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) and my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) started the negotiations over the Lightning deal in the Conservative Administration two years ago. They struggled and pressed for the Saudi-Arabian Government to buy Lightning fighters. That struggle was taken over by the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation, and I have been glad to read that he has succeeded.
  Success was reached, however, only because the Americans finally agreed to a package deal; that they would provide the Hawk missiles while the British industry would provide the Lightning fighters. Perhaps one of the reasons why they shifted their position was the chance of selling the F111 to this country. However, it became more and more apparent that we were not going to achieve the sale until the political pressure was altered by the U.S. We must combine with our friends on the Continent of Europe if we are to get a fairer share of the purchase of arms throughout the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
  The second point which was made in my right hon. Friend's document was the suggestion that we should use the W.E.U.
  1758
  for close and continuous co-operation and consultation while waiting for the opportunity to join the E.E.C. I am sure that this could be done, and I urge Her Majesty's Government to look extremely carefully at that suggestion.
  We realise that it will be some time before negotiations can start again for our joining the E.E.C. Most hon. Members now realise that Britain's future lies in Europe, in the E.E.C., both economically and politically. This is 'where we must finally go and, as has been made clear today, events have moved very fast and will move even faster in the months ahead. I pray that Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to take advantage when the next chance comes for us to join our destiny with our friends, on the Continent of Europe.
  6.49 p.m.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: I hope that the hon. Member for Richmond, Surrey (Mr. A. Royle) will forgive me if I do not comment on the wide variety of subjects he mentioned, because I wish to concentrate on the three hot spots in the present international situation and in our foreign policy.
  The first is the question of the inclusion of Western Germany in some capacity in some form of international nuclear force. On this isssue I confess that I am in a state of considerable confusion about the policy of Her Majesty's Government as of today, let alone what it might be tomorrow. Nor do I feel that the Foreign Secretary's sibylline utterances on the subject this afternoon clarify the situation.
  It is worth putting on record the phases through which this policy has passed. The first, while we were still in Opposition, was the statement made on two occasions by the then Leader of the Opposition, the present Prime Minister, in this House on 31st January, and again on 3rd July, 1963. He then said:
  "We are completely, utterly and unequivocally opposed, now and in all circumstances, to any suggestion that Germany, West Germany or East Germany, directly or indirectly, should have a finger on the nuclear trigger or any responsibility, direct or indirect, for deciding that nuclear weapons are to be used."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st January, 1963; Vol. 670, c. 1246.]
  I have emphasised the second half of that statement because only on the 14th

  1759
  of this month I referred to this statement and, in reply, the Prime Minister said:
  "I referred in July, 1963, to the idea of a German finger on the trigger. I also criticised the then current scheme for an M.L.F., which we have opposed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th December, 1965; Vol. 722, c. 1082.]
  The House will probably agree that this is an incomplete rendering of what was said on those two occasions when, on the first occasion, this was put forward as a categoric statement. And on the second occasion the Prime Minister said:
  "I have used exactly the same words at Washington and in Moscow. This is the policy of our party."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd July, 1963; Vol. 680, c. 393.]
  He went on to give a very convincing explanation of why the Labour Party felt it necessary to take this strong and categoric stand. He explained that his visits to Moscow had convinced him that the Soviet Government were unalterably opposed to any form of participation by Western Germany in any kind of international nuclear force in N.A.T.O., and that to go ahead with such a policy would make it impossible to get agreement with the Soviet Union either on nonproliferation of nuclear weapons, on disarmament or disengagement, or on a political settlement in Europe.
  The present Prime Minister, in that statement when Leader of the Opposition, went so far as to say that this might become the point of no return on the road to the next world war and that he therefore rejected that policy out of hand. But on 17th December, 1964 the Minister of Defence said:
  "We offer Germany participation in the ownership, management and control of a new strategic N.A.T.O. nuclear force on terms of absolute equality…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1964; Vol. 704, c. 603.]
  Try as I can, and with the best will in the world, I cannot reconcile that statement with the previous statement, that it is the policy of the party to exclude West Germany, or any part of Germany from
  "…any responsibility, direct or indirect, for deciding that nuclear weapons are to be used."
  The third phase in the situation was an interview given by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on the eve of his leaving Moscow on 3rd December, when he said:
  "I have tried to impress on the Soviet leaders that Britain does not contemplate giv-
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  ing Western Germany access to nuclear weapons."
  What I want to know is: was the first of these two apparently contradictory statements made for consumption in Bonn, and the second for consumption in Moscow, or do they both mean the same thing—and, if so, what is the common thing they both mean? I ask that because, frankly, I do not understand.
  I never forget, of course, the difference in these matters between the Opposition and the Government. On 14th December last the Leader of the Opposition made his position quite clear when he asked:
  "Will the Prime Minister now give an assurance confirming what he has said on previous occasions, that the measures necessary for the nuclear defence of the West will take priority over other political measures, such as the obtaining of a non-proliferation agreement?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th December, 1965; Vol. 722, 1082.]
  The right hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) has today made the same point.
  So, at any rate, we know where the Opposition stand. They are prepared to sacrifice any chance of reaching agreement with the Soviet Union for the nonproliferation of nuclear weapons, or any other issue likely to lead us to peace, for the sake of stepping up preparation for nuclear war against the Soviet Union. I must say that I understand that position, although I do not agree with it. The Prime Minister rejected this view on 14th December, but said that we were trying, at one and the same time, to satisfy Western Germany's demand for inclusion in the management of nuclear weapons and to reach agreement with the Soviet Union. If one could square the circle I have no doubt that that would be a successful endeavour. But I think that it is now time we stopped trying to do incompatible things and took a straight and clear course for peace.
  When, on 12th May, 1949, in the House of Commons, the Labour Government put forward the N.A.T.O. Treaty, Mr. Ernest Bevin, as Foreign Secretary, advanced the thesis that through N.A.T.O. we would strengthen the United Nations and make it easier to reach a settlement with the Soviet Union based on reason and common interest which would unite Europe and open the door to disarmament. Unfortunately, the Government of that day proved tragically wrong.

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  I have always referred to N.A.T.O. as "Labour's Folly". I still think that it is "Labour's Folly", because it does not stand for anything that we stand for or believe in. But at any rate, they got their priorities right then. They quite clearly looked on N.A.T.O. as a means, and the attainment of a peaceful settlement with the Soviet Union in Europe, as the end. Now we have reached the situation where, in the eyes of the Opposition, the preservation of N.A.T.O. has become an end in itself, for the sake of which we must be prepared to sacrifice any reasonable chance of agreement with the Soviet Union.
  Although the Government have not gone as far as that, I think that they have already gone too far in that direction and are trying, obstinately and long after it has become perfectly clear that they were right in saying that the two things are incompatible, to go ahead with this business of having Germany in an international nuclear force under N.A.T.O., although this must hold up any chance of a settlement in Europe and is, in fact, continually aggravating the situation in Europe.
  I hope that in this debate we shall get a clear statement that the Government put the attaining of agreements on disarmament, on disengagement, on a European political settlement, on non-proliferation of nuclear weapons and all the rest, before preserving the Alliance; that the Alliance is not an end in itself, and will not be clung to as a means which destroys the end. It is a wrong means, and we should start realising that.
  The second hot point is our world role east of Suez. On this, the Prime Minister was very categoric in the House on 16th December of last year. He then said:
  "…when we argue about our right to a central place, whether in the Alliance, whether in the United Nations, whether in world affairs generally, about our influence, about our presence at the top table and all the rest of it, let us recognise that our rights depend on this world-wide rôle, that it is a distinctive rôle and that no one else can do it."
  Therefore, the Prime Minister said:
  "…whatever we may do in the field of cost effectiveness, value for money and a stringent review of expenditure, we cannot afford to relinquish our world rôle…our 'East of Suez' rôle…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th December, 1964; Vol. 704, c. 423–4.]
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  He expressed his confidence in our world rôle which, he said
  "no one in this House, or indeed in the country, will wish us to give up or call in question."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th December, 1964; Vol. 704, c. 421–5.]
  He said that he was tremendously impressed by the readiness with which the United States Administration appreciated and welcomed our unique world rôle.
  Unfortunately, the Prime Minister's confidence proved to be misplaced. There has been a swelling volume of opposition to this east of Suez rôle, not only from within this party, where it is growing and going far toward the right of centre, but also in the Liberal Party; and, if I understood what the Shadow Defence Minister said at Brighton, for which he got into a lot of hot water, he also took a critical view.
  We now know why the United States accorded the Government's willingness to shoulder this burden such a flattering acceptance. In The Times on 14th January the Washington Corresponsdent explained that the U.S. Administration thought the Government were being foolishly extravagant in the middle of their very serious balance of payments deficit for, as they put it,
  "proceeding with the construction of Polaris submarines and embarking upon what threatens to be a costly military operation in defence of Malaysia. Yet neither the Secretary of State nor the Secretary of Defence would have it otherwise in South-East Asia. Indeed, the Royal Navy could be called McNamara's Navy because it is doing precisely what the Secretary of Defence wants done East of Suez to avoid higher defence costs for the United States. The claim of successive Governments in London that Britain is a world power is suffered at least partly because it is in the American interest."
  Further light was cast on the American view of Britain's world rôle in a report, this time in The Guardian, on 1st July from Washington, on the talks between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the United States Defence Secretary, Mr. McNamara, who was twisting the Chancellor's arm and trying to insist that we must really keep up all our defence commitments east of Suez and that the United States was unwilling to step in and take over if we pulled out. The correspondent said that the reason for this was not that the United States could not in fact afford to do so, but, as he put it,
  "for internal political reasons, because it is judged that the American people are getting

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  tired of being shot at from Vietnam and the Dominican Republic while playing the part of international policeman."
  The latest phase in the drama was the further report in The Guardian, from New York this time, last Friday on what it called the haggling going on between the Prime Minister and the United States President, in which, according to the report, our Government were asking the United States Administration to say which cuts in defence commitments we might make and which they would not have us make. It seems a rather odd position to me, but that was apparently the position. The reason was that it had now been discovered on a review of existing defence commitments that they would amount to £2,500 million in the next defence budget, and the Government were rather anxious —in fact, very anxious, for understandable reasons—to cut that down to £2,000 million in real terms, as they have promised to do, although no doubt with the rise in prices since last year that would mean a bit more in £s.
  A compromise, according to the Press, has been reached. It has been discovered that, after all, our role east of Suez is not so unique as we had supposed. It is not only we who can do it. The United States can do it, too. So the end of the haggling apparently is that we become incorporated in the Far Eastern policy of the United States, in the service of what The Times has referred to as the new Monroe doctrine. I call it the policy of inverted Trotskyism, of permanent counter revolution; a policy of universal intervention to prop up régimes too reactionary to be tolerable to their own peoples without outside support, which the United States generously provides, whether it is in Latin America or in Asia or in any other place which offers itself for the operation.
  We are seeing this policy in action in Vietnam. I have to say a few words about the past of this, because the Government have been peddling such a very distorted version of what happened, and it has been so uncritically accepted, in the service of our policy of supporting this war, that it is as well to get the record straight. It was in 1950 that Mr. Dulles took over the French colonial war in Vietnam and turned it into an ideological war against Communism. It was fought by the French until 1954, but with the
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  United States paying three-quarters of the expenses and threatening to withdraw Marshal Plan aid from France if France ventured to make peace.
  Finally, came the defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu. Mr. Anthony Eden refused to go along with Mr. Dulles, who wanted to atom bomb the besiegers of Dien Bien Phu, even at the risk of bringing in China. Consequently, that policy was abandoned. Eden's phrase is still to be remembered—that he refused to support a bad policy for the sake of preserving the alliance. I wish I could hear those sentiments from our own Front Bench today.
  Instead of a nuclear war in that part of the world on that occasion, we had the 1954 Geneva Agreements, which laid it down—we were a party to those Agreements; we are still a party to those Agreements—that Vietnam is one country, whose sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity must be respected; that the military demarcation line is provisional and must in no circumstances be treated as a political or territorial boundary; that there should be free elections in Vietnam within two years under international supervision; and that there should be no increase in existing foreign forces and bases and they should all be gradually withdrawn as part of the final settlement and the whole country be militarily neutralised.
  Mr. Dulles refused to sign that agreement, on the ground that it would lead to an 80 per cent. victory for the Viet Minh. Ho Chi-Minh had pressed for those very elections, offered every facility for the expression of different points of view, and accepted full international supervision. It was the other side who rejected that, because they believed they would lose the elections. But Mr. Dulles gave—at least, Mr. Bedell Smith, his substitute, gave—a very categoric undertaking on behalf of the United States. He said that the United States would
  "refrain from the threat or the use of force to disturb the Geneva Agreements, in accordance with Article 2, Section 4 of the Charter of the United Nations dealing with the obligation of members to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force".
  The next step was that the United States proceeded totally to disregard this undertaking. It had at that time imported its own puppet, Mr. Dinh Diem,

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  who had been residing in New Jersey for 17 years, and made him Prime Minister under the French-supported quisling Emperor Bao Dai, who had served under the Japanese first; but he was not fussy, neither were the French nor the Americans. They took him over. The Americans made Dinh Diem Prime Minister and very soon had Bao Dai out. He preferred his old existence in the night clubs of the Riviera, anyway.
  The Americans then proceeded to step up their take-over in South Vietnam.
  On that, a very distinguished American, Senator Wayne Morse, has put the legal position clearly. It needs putting clearly, because it governs the whole situation and it has been glossed over or misrepresented. He said:
  "Immediately upon the signing of the 1954 Agreement, the United States began to support the national government of South Vietnam in a big way. In the decade following 1954, the United States for all practical purposes made a protectorate out of South Vietnam…Each time we increase the number of American boys sent to that country…we violate the Geneva Agreement of 1954. Every jet plane, every helicopter, every naval vessel we furnish South Vietnam or man with American servicemen is a violation and so is every military base and airstrip we have constructed there…as early as its report covering 1956 the International Control Commission found both North and South Vietnam had violated the accords of 1954. the latter in conjunction with the United States military aid activities…"
  The second point that needs establishing is that the South Vietnam National Liberation Front is an indigenous movement which arose out of the local conditions in South Vietnam, to wit the fact that the Dinh Diem Government, contrary to what was laid down in the Geneva Agreements and with the encouragement of the Americans, began a fearful persecution of all the Liberals, Demo-crate, Radical Socialists and Communists who had supported the Vietminh. There were about 2 million in South Vietnam and their leaders were under fierce persecution.
  The second step which he took was that he undid what the Vietminh had done in distributing the land of the big landowners to the peasants. He introduced a land reform unique in history in being the only one supported by the landowners and opposed by the peasants. He restored the land to the landowners with a provision that they should not charge
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  their tenantry more than 25 per cent. of their crops by way of rents. This was ignored and the landlords went back to the good old days of charging as much as the traffic would bear. The third and final element was that the people were cheated of the promised free election to settle the issue.
  This was the foundation of the revolt. Long after the bombing had begun we still have the testimony of Senator Wayne Morse and other reliable American sources that the whole claim that the South Vietnam National Liberation Forces were either being armed or manned to more than an insignificant extent from the North was simply false. Most of their arms were captured American arms, exactly as the Chinese Communists did when they were fighting Chiang Kai-chek. The real reason for the bombing of North Vietnam was to prevent the collapse of the South Vietnam régime.
  Equally false is the claim that the United States have always been ready for unconditional negotiations. Senator Wayne Morse made a drastic comment on this last February which again exposes facts which have been persistently denied and distorted. He said that no doubt President Johnson
  "would negotiate with China and with North Vietnam but not with the Viet Cong who of course are the enemy. Such a position enables the United States to take a public posture in favour of negotiations without any real chance that the offer might lead to negotiations. But never in any presentation in public or in private have I heard any indication from Administration spokesmen that this country is ready right now to sit down with the Viet Cong and to make major concessions in return for major concessions on their part. It seems to be the view of the Administration that our offer to negotiate with the non-enemy is a mark of our national benevolence. But I wonder how benevolent we are to the people of Vietnam. It is our power and our money and our military might that continues the war in Vietnam".
  The truth is that, legally speaking, the United States has no right to be in Vietnam at all. Its whole position in South Vietnam is that of an aggressor in violation of its own undertakings to respect the Geneva Agreements and in violation of its own obligation to refrain from force, as laid down in the United Nations Charter. Also, legally speaking, North and South Vietnam being part of one country it is not legitimate to treat

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  any help from North Vietnam to South Vietnam as a case of international aggression.
  Mr. C. M. Woodhouse: Would the hon. Member elucidate that comment by commenting on the remarks made by his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) a short while ago to the effect that the Americans had every right to be in South Vietnam by virtue of the South-East Asia Treaty?
  Mr. Zilliacus: The South-East Asia Treaty was concluded without the participation of either North or South Vietnam. No Powers have the right to give themselves the right to intervene in the internal affairs of another country. In this case they are all bound by the Charter of the United Nations, the obligations of which override those of any other treaty. The United Nations Charter explicitly forbids interference in the internal affairs of another country.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Would the hon. Member exclude the right of a sovereign Government to invite another nation to come to their aid?
  Mr. Zilliacus: I do not recognise the South Vietnam puppets imposed and paid for by the United States and propped up on United States bayonets as a Government of any kind.
  In all the unhappy record of Government support of this ghastly war one of the worst features is their repeating of what everybody now knows is false, namely, that it is the Hanoi Government that do not want negotiations. The truth is that the Hanoi Government, being under heavy bomb attacks by a world Power which is piling up a huge military build-up in South Vietnam, is in no position to say this. Hon. Members should read James Cameron's accounts of the character of the fighting and should remember what we felt like in the blitz. In this situation the Hanoi Government are in no position to say that they are prepared to negotiate with what they regard, and I regard, as an aggressor in occupation of a large part of their country and who is bombing them. It is therefore true that the first step to make negotiations possible is a suspension of the bombing. I regard the bombing as contrary to the laws of humanity and the
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  laws of war and believe that it should be stopped anyway.
  Another point, and we should be clear about this, is that the Vietnamese are fighting for the implementation of the Geneva Agreements. They were promised those agreements. The United States violated that undertaking and the whole policy of the United States has consisted, first, in denying the Vietnamese the right to decide on their own future by free elections and, secondly, to try by force of arms to partition their country and impose a puppet Government made in the U.S.A. This talk of unconditional negotiations by the United States is only part of the utter humbug in which this subject is wrapped.
  President Johnson's speech of 7th April began by treating North and South Vietnam as two sovereign States and saying that the object of the United States was to defend the independence of South Vietnam. That to start with was a complete misrepresentation of what the Geneva Agreements say. In the second place, Mr. McNamara the other day confirmed that one object of the United States is to crush what he calls the Vietcong in South Vietnam, that is, the S.V.N.L.F., to make an "independent" and "non-Communist" South Vietnam.
  The Times correspondent from Washington on 18th November followed that up by stating:
  "…it has now emerged that President Johnson's offer of unconditional discussions to bring the war to an end is not so unconditional as he said in his Baltimore speech. There are at least two conditions.
  The first is that political recognition of the National Liberation Front as part of a final settlement is unacceptable. The second is that it cannot be permitted to retain a territorial base similar to that given to the Pathet Lao in Laos.
  These conditions, it was learned today, are not open to negotiations; the Administration is not prepared to negotiate without their prior acceptance. The reason given is that political recognition is the first objective of the National Liberation Front, and indeed is what the war is all about. A possible future situation in which the National Liberation Front could take part in a coalition with non-Communist parties is not permissible."
  Very well, we know where we are. It has been fairly obvious for a long time.
  The United States is not piling up these vast forces, air and naval bases, and so on, just because of its passionate

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  desire for free elections or democracy in South Vietnam. To know exactly what that means, all one has to do is to look at its record in Latin America, starting with Santo Domingo.
  Captain Walter Elliot: Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I have no power to prevent interventions, but they prolong speeches and 80 hon. Members wish to take part in the debate.
  Mr. Zilliacus: I will draw quickly to a conclusion, Mr. Speaker, as I was doing in any event.
  I believe this whole policy to be immoral and disastrous. We should stop basing our policy on the American alliance and instead base it on the Charter of the United Nations and on the principle proclaimed by the Labour Party, that the first principle of defence is that defence should be the servant of foreign policy. That was stated by the present Minister of Defence then "Shadow" Minister, on 4th March last year.
  That is a sound principle. It means that we should draw the attention of our N.A.T.O. allies to the fact that we are not obliged to support them whatever they do. We should table our proposals for a European settlement, disengagement and all the rest, and tell them that we want to negotiate on those proposals. If the Soviet Government accepts them as a basis of negotiation and our allies refuse, we should draw their attention to the fact that we are obliged under N.A.T.O. to assist them only in case of unprovoked aggression, that we consider their present policies provocative and, therefore, that we will take our forces out of B.A.O.R., demobilise them and close down the Polaris base.
  The same argument applies to the Far East. We should test the sincerity of the American professions. We should say to them, "Will you cease the bombing? Will you genuinely accept the Geneva Agreements as a basis of negotiation"—and that means the unification of Vietnam and the military neutralisation of Vietnam, including the withdrawal of all foreign forces. We should ask, "Will you make the first object of the negotiations a ceasefire and follow that up with negotiations for the withdrawal of all foreign forces from South Vietnam"—and that in
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  U.S. eyes includes any North Vietnam forces. Only when that process has reached a point where the remaining foreign forces cannot be used to extort a settlement contrary to the Geneva Agreements——
  Mr. Warbey Mr. Warbey rose——
  Mr. Zilliacus: —can we begin negotiations on the substance of the question, i.e. how to implement the Geneva Agreements. We should make this stick by saying that unless we reach agreement with the United States on some such basis of settlement, we will pull out of S.E.A.T.O.
  That is what taking our stand on the Charter means. That is the only basis on which we can exert a powerful enough influence to change the course of events.
  If we do not change the course of events, if we do not lead the forces of opposition in the world, including American opposition, to this policy, I do not see any halting point this side of an escalation into a war with China and world war. Therefore, let the Labour Government give a lead for peace and stop acting as the camp follower of the United States through thick and thin.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: I have listened to the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) at greater length than to any other hon. Member in past years when he and I were in the House together. Although we probably share the same aim of peace in our time, I do not think that there is anybody with whom I agree less on the means to pursue it. That does not mean, however, that I have not listened to the hon. Member or been the subject of his attacks, although I have always felt that he displayed greater benevolence to the Government when he was in opposition to it than he does to his own Front Bench.
  I shall take to heart, Mr. Speaker, what you said about being brief. First, I wish to touch upon the foreign affairs aspects of Rhodesia, to which the Foreign Secretary briefly referred earlier this afternoon. I join other hon. Members, on both sides, who have welcomed the Foreign Secretary's return. We hope that the right hon. Gentleman's health will stand up to what is, possibly, the most

  1771
  taxing job in the Government. I congratulate him on a number of achievements to which I will refer.
  The aspect of Rhodesia which worries me most deeply is the question of sanctions. I was at Geneva at the same time as the hon. Member for Gorton. He was in the League of Nations when I first went there in 1935. If I had known him, I would have sought his advice but not necessarily have taken it. Having seen sanctions applied in the Ethiopia disaster and then not enforced, for two years I was involved in trying to enforce them: my memory is that everybody cheated except the British. Despite what was said at the League of Nations, it was the British alone who really tried to enforce the sanctions.
  Mr. Zilliacus: May I say that I was a League of Nations official at the time and I went through all that? What happened was that Sir Samuel Hoare, as Foreign Secretary, gave instructions to the then Mr. Eden on the Sanctions Committee not to take the lead and not to agree to any measure which might involve a danger of war with Mussolini. That made Mussolini the invisible chairman of the Sanctions Committee.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: That is quite different from my recollection of the papers which I was seeing as another form of civil servant. When the papers are published in due course, we can see which version was right. The House will remember Sir Samuel Hoare saying in the House of Commons that "not a man, not a ship and not a gun" was moved by anybody but the British in trying to enforce sanctions.
  Surely, it is by now generally agreed that sanctions are probably ineffective unless there is a full system of navicerts, which requires a naval blockade, which, I understand, although I am not an international lawyer—perhaps whoever answers for the Government will clarify this—means in effect some form of declaration of war. It is my fear of escalation, in the first place, and, secondly, that we will find that if the sanctions do not work they will be counter-productive, that makes me most deeply apprehensive about what may come out of this latest step.
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  I hope that when the Prime Minister gives us more information about this, he will give us some assurances and spell out in more detail what exactly he is seeking to affect by the sanctions. The Foreign Secretary talked about "crushing the rebellion", but exactly how? Could we not at the same time follow up the suggestion made by the Prime Minister soon after the start of this episode nearly six weeks ago that he might send out a delegation—the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association was mentioned—to keep in touch? What worries hon. Members, I think, on both sides, is that there seems to be no contact. We have lost it. We should make an attempt to get into contact again. All of us, I am sure, regard U.D.I. as an irresponsible decision affecting far more throughout the world than the affairs merely of the United Kingdom and Rhodesia. It is on this account that I mention the point of sanctions on this occasion.
  My right hon. and hon. Friends have mentioned some of the immediate, tactical problems facing us. I want to look beyond those to some of the aspects of future policy, and organisation to implement it. Since I first came to the House our overseas policy on general lines has been national policy, agreed to and established under Mr. Ernest Bevin in the years after the war, when he and others on our Front Bench had served together in the Coalition Government.
  The two aspects of that policy that I shall mention have been supported and carried out by all parties. The first side was our defence of our freedom through N.A.T.O. and the alliances to the East. and the economic support of it by O.E.C.D., G.A.T.T. and E.F.T.A., all within the United Nations. The other aspect of policy that we have all in general supported is decolonialisation with aid to the territories which have succeeded the colonial rule, leading to the latest form of support, U.N.C.T.A.D., which is "trade and not aid".
  Looking back to 1945, I feel that we have succeeded beyond our imagination in the first of these two objectives—material reconstruction after the war, and defence of freedom—both of these within the N.A.T.O. area. As to the other area of policy, I hope that Rhodesia will be the last major problem that faces us,

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  though one can see a number of minor ones ahead. But in this area the constructive period of the last ten years in particular leaves lamentably much to do. We left a power vacuum which I think we underestimated. I certainly did. I hoped and believed, probably foolishly, that the United Nations would be able to take more account of these vacua, and prevent international Communism moving in. One hoped and believed that internal law and order was more stable. Above all, possibly our greatest miscalculation was the population explosion and the shortage of food, a factor which in the next ten or fifteen years will, I think, be paramount.
  But there are two aspects which concern us now. I thought of these when listening to some of the remarks of the Foreign Secretary, when he was painting on a broad canvas some of his hopes for the future, which I believe the whole House will share, for all of us have to make up our minds on what in broad terms are the needs and the best future for us in this country. We must, of course, keep ourselves viable in the United Kingdom, not just for our own material benefit, but for all those in the Commonwealth and elsewhere who still depend considerably on this country; and, beyond that, see how we in Parliament can get support for those policies in Britain and in the world outside.
  Again talking in broad terms, I believe that the House accepts in general a closer association with Europe. Whatever may be the details over which we disagree, I think that there has been in the last five years a very much greater area of agreement. As the Foreign Secretary said, the five points seem to be less difficult than they were. Our aim—that of substantially the whole House, I believe—is for Britain to be part of Europe and for Europe to be the second pillar, in President Kennedy's words, of the Atlantic Community, not just an independent Europe but part of the Atlantic Alliance.
  The ways and means we shall debate for a long time to come. It was Senator Fulbright, talking at Strasbourg in the Spring, who said:
  "If you think all problems cease with union, come to Washington and see what happens afterwards."
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  I think that we can look forward to many years of delightful debate on ways and means, but our ultimate aim must be to carry as much of the Commonwealth and of our allies as we can.
  The second aim to which the whole House will subscribe is that for the time being—one cannot look more than a few years ahead—there is a need for Britain "east of the Suez", in the jargon of today, for our Commonwealth and, again, our allies, through the many alliances there, to help them to protect themselves not only against outside aggression but also against internal subversion, which is the scourge of the modern political world outside the N.A.T.0,. area. Again, we shall no doubt argue between the two sides and within both sides about how this can best be carried out, but I am certain that the alliances from C.E.N.T.O. to A.N.Z.U.S. will have to be consolidated and possibly reorganised; on the economic side we must support U.N.C.T.A.D. with greater energy than has been shown in the last 12 months by this country. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition got this going with great energy about 18 months ago, but I believe that here again is an area for United Kingdom effort to which we have not been giving our full attention in the past few months. But aid from the material side is, I believe, even more valuable if we can give education and training, because here in helping people to help themselves lies the greatest outlet for our efforts.
  Even though these suggestions may sound somewhat platitudinous, I believe that we still have to carry substantial centres of public opinion with us to achieve a greater degree of influence, as my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey (Mr. A. Royle) commented just now. In Parliament we have to vote supply. It has rather horrified me in the last 12 months how we put huge sums of money through Parliament very often with the minimum of discussion. I believe that by having greater Parliamentary discussion of these things—we know that the Estimates Committee works very hard—we might be able to use these sums to greater effect.
  Now in Europe we have two leading institutions of which we do not at the moment make the greatest use—the Council of Europe and the Western European

  1775
  Union Assembly. I have had the privilege of being a member of both in the past year after an absence of some years, and I have been very much impressed by the considerable community of aim among European Parliamentarians—except some of our French allies—in particular the aim to bring the United Kingdom into closer association with Europe. Many of these individuals have had very long Parliamentary experience, and I think that they regard the United Kingdom's failure to take more advantage of the past 15 years or more as one of the great tragedies of those years. I feel that this is so, and history will in due course tell the story of which of us is particularly to blame.
  But what I think the whole House is interested in is: what do we do now? What can we do to speed up our association? France for the moment is holding up closer association, but I hope that after yesterday's election we may see a greater speed. My information from France is that there is growing realisation there that France is becoming isolated, and I do not think that the French wish to go further out in that direction. Some hon. Members may have heard Mr. Maurice Schumann on the French television last night. So I think we may hope to see greater flexibility in the French approach in the next few weeks or months.
  I suggest that we can call in aid the institutions which I have mentioned. Their functions are only exploratory, initially. Their members discuss without commitment, but once they have discussed a subject and collected a consensus of support, it is sent to the Council of Ministers for Governments for action. I find a growing frustration among members of all parties and from all countries at the apparent failure of Governments to take action on the reports which are put to the Ministers. I think that most hon. Members are aware of the system of reports. I believe that it is a good one, in which all parties and nations discuss the issues and reach general agreement, and vote on them.
  These reports are more than outline resolutions. They are drawn up by former senior ex-Ministers of great experience and knowledge of all the realities, both practical and political. So when the Ministers receive these reports,
  1776
  with their recommendations, they can, I believe, count on considerable support not only in their own Parliaments for them but in the rest of the area concerned, be it in the Council of Europe—the 18 nations—or in the seven members of Western European Union.
  I have a particular sentiment for the W.E.U. Assembly because I had the privilege of being at the Foreign Office when it was set up in 1954. In the latest series of reports the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) was an excellent rapporteur on the economic side. I want to draw the Government's attention, however, again to Document No. 354, which has already been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey. This was drawn up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys). I also want to refer to the report drawn up by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. Emery), dealing with defence outside the N.A.T.O. area.
  These two reports contain, in effect and in essence, proposals which cover the major part of the United Kingdom's future policies in N.A.T.O. and beyond. I am sure that Ministers will have seen them. What I want to find out is what the Government's advisers are doing about them. As my hon. Friend pointed out, Document No. 354 was a unanimous report, with the exception of one dissenter from the benches opposite, who is not here at the moment.
  There are two points I want to re-stress, because I do not think that we can over-stress them. The first is the recommendation about a European Armaments Board. This seems to me particularly vital at the moment. Last week we had a debate about the F.111. That is the sort of subject which should be considered by an Armaments Board in Europe in order to see whether we could produce aircraft of this type in Europe. At present, the Minister of Aviation is working very hard, according to the newspapers, but it is not the same thing as having a European Armaments Board to which such a project could be referred. I believe that it is a truism to say that an aircraft industry is the basis of modern technology. What I am afraid of is that after what has been done to our aircraft industry in the last twelve months,

  1777
  we shall find ourselves without one in a year or two, and thus without a basis for modern technology.
  I believe that here is a practical and urgent suggestion of which the Government should take account, for it would help the European aerospace industry to survive in the period ahead. At the same time, it is most important for the Government not to underestimate the political result of such an industry and Armaments Board. The fact that we took a lead in this while we still had a substantial aircraft industry would have a political effect out of all proportion to the results which I believe can be obtained.
  The second recommendation, also on page 33 of Document No. 354, is where the rapporteur talks about
  "evolving a common European approach to the problems of N.A.T.O. and other international issues."
  This links up with the report of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading on defence outside the N.A.T.O. area. I shall not go into details about that for I have already said what I think the aim should be. But it is a little depressing to find out how little our allies in Western European Union have done to participate in the suggestions which have been made.
  Last June, at the W.E.U. Assembly, the British were accused of dominating the debate. Many members of the Assembly expressed interest to me after the debate, but we could not get them to take part in it. I ask the Government whether they see any signs of participation by these other countries of W.E.U. In the days that face us now, except for Australia and New Zealand, there is mighty little help outside the N.A.T.O. area to efforts made by the United States and the United Kingdom.
  In the debate on the Territorial Army last week, the Secretary of State for Defence told us a little of what had been going on at N.A.T.O. and the interesting discussions there. He did not tell us anything about this aspect of the discussions—it would be interesting to know. According to reports, too, the Prime Minister, while in Washington, raised the question of joint forces in the Indian Ocean. Whether or not the subject was discussed between him and President Johnson, it seems an excellent idea to many of us. In particular, we want to know what the Government are doing to
  1778
  implement the recommendation that they should take the initiative in evolving a common European approach to the problems which face us outside the N.A.T.O. area.
  There is no time to discuss the two other areas in which I am particularly interested, but I should like to mention them briefly. I welcome the helpful attitude of the Government to the application of Yugoslavia to join the European Free Trade Area. I have been advocating this in private for some time, with some coyness on behalf of our Yugoslav friends and diffidence on my own. I think that this could be a most useful move.
  I also congratulate the Government on the new association with Southern Ireland. I have always found the Southern Irish particularly helpful at the United Nations and the Council of Europe. Perhaps I might one day go back there. My grandparents left in 1922. I have never found anything but the greatest friendship from the people of Southern Ireland, and I am sure that this new agreement will be a very useful step.
  I believe that some hon. Members opposite might sink their out-of-date feelings towards Spain and try to get a closer association between Britain and Spain and thus be able to find perhaps some sort of solution to the problem of Gibraltar. I spoke about that issue last July and shall not go into it again tonight.
  The other area on the other fringe of Europe that I wish to refer to is the Warsaw Pact area, including Russia as far as the Urals. I congratulate the Foreign Secretary on following the initiative taken by the last Government and developing personal contact with Governments behind the Iron Curtain. As has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames), Germany is still of paramount importance in the affairs of Europe. There are the great problems of the reunification of Germany and its nuclear rôle in future. I think that there is growing realisation in all these countries on both sides of the Iron Curtain that the final solution must be reached in agreement and not in conflict. This realisation has grown particularly fast in the last three years.
  One cannot repeat too often that these countries are an essential part of historic

  1779
  Europe and certainly still feel it themselves. They are now being threatened from elsewhere than Western Europe, and I think that we shall be able to work towards some association. But in doing so we must never suggest that we are dropping our guard until full agreement on disarmament is reached.
  My last point concerns what we are to do about using to greater effect first the Council of Europe, which has been a most useful forum for discussion and agreement among Parliamentarians, and second the Western European Union Assembly. Governments of both parties are always saying that they want to cooperate more closely with Europe. In W.E.U. we have an organisation consisting of the Six and the United Kingdom. It should be and could be an ideal forum for discussion and agreement of the type which I have mentioned and yet at the last meeting, I am sorry to say, no United Kingdom Minister was present. There was only one junior Dutch Minister, our admirable allies always. I can assure the Foreign Secretary that these bodies include those who believe in forward thinking and forward planning.
  When I was at the Foreign Office, the Western European Union Assembly was just starting, but, as far as I remember, we never failed to have a Minister at the Council of Europe. Ministers do not need to make long speeches—ten minutes is long enough for anybody, there or anwhere else—but Ministers would be welcome among the members of the Assembly and it would be of great benefit to the House and the country for us to have Ministers there.
  I say to the Foreign Secretary—and not just to him, but to any Government of whatever party—that more and more Parliamentarians will regard the presence of United Kingdom Ministers at the Council of Europe, or the Western European Union Assembly, as the real test of the United Kingdom Government's sincerity about Europe. I beg the Government to take this matter more seriously and to look at and act upon the practical suggestions which are made by those Assemblies.
  7.51 p.m.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: The purpose of this contribution is to sug-
  1780
  gest that our military presence in Malaysia and Singapore postpones rather than advances the long-term objective of stability in Southern Asia. The mosturgent matter is our relationship with Indonesia, with her 105 million people, one of the world's great nations.
  In September, it was the opinion of the Dayak leaders and the non-Communist leaders of the Sarawak United People's Party that should British troops be withdrawn from Borneo, Indonesia would not attempt a military take-over in Sabah or Sarawak. I shared that view before the events of 30th September and I share it today. The right hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) was perhaps on rather dangerous ground for jumping to conclusions about the favourable nature of the present Indonesian regime. Perhaps it is too early to say.
  I have no doubt that every British Minister would like to believe that my informants are correct in their judgment. From interviews and correspondence which I have had with the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Defence, I have ample evidence that they dislike, indeed, loathe, the Borneo war no less than I do. The issue between us is whether, in calling for our total military withdrawal from Borneo within weeks, I am being naive.
  If constantly reiterated claims by Indonesia that she has no territorial ambitions outside the former Netherlands East Indies are discounted by Britain, certain question have to be discussed. First, why is it that Indonesia has made no move against Portuguese Timor, an obvious area for her supposed ambitions? Secondly, it is argued that Indonesia has behaved aggressively over Western Irian. West New Guinea was part of the Netherlands Indies and there were complex arguments about the timing of a possible "White Australia" policy affecting all other than indigenous Papuans, and in the eyes of many observers, including Robert Kennedy, Indonesia had a pretty good case.
  Thirdly, those who argue as I do are told that we must realise that when confrontation started in the spring of 1963 there were no British troops in either Sabah or Sarawak. That is literally true. The overworked British Ministers genuinely believe that it was Indonesian

  1781
  armed intervention in Sabah and Sarawak which first brought British troops on the scene.
  This belief is deeply misleading. Between 8th September and 16th September, 1962, a so-called rebellion broke out in the tiny but oil rich State of Brunei. It is not denied that Azahari who led the rebellion was perhaps an adventurer, and yet in the view of many observers, not least the constituents of myself, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown) and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Dr. Miller)—the men of the Cameron Highlanders who actually quelled the rebellion—it had massive popular support.
  This is not the place to examine the virtues or otherwise of His Excellency Sir Omar Ali Saifuddin Wasa'dul Khairi Waddin, K.C.M.G., Sultan of Brunei. Sufficient to say that he certainly is not a democrat. From Djakarta it may have appeared that the distinction between Western forces in Brunei and Western forces in Sarawak and Sabah was blurred. Indeed, I would understand it only too well if the Indonesians objected merely to the possibility of Western forces in Sabah or Sarawak and I have a shrewd suspicion that if many of my hon. Friends were young Indonesians, they would object to the possibility of Western forces in the Northern Borneo territories.
  What is factual is that it was only at the time of the Brunei revolt that overt hostility to the Malaysia project first appeared. In May, 1963, British Forces were still in Brunei. Unless one ridicules anything that the Indonesians say in an official capacity, it is significant that Dr. Sudjarwo told the Security Council in 1964 that the revolt in Brunei had been the turning point in Indonesia's attitude towards Malaysia.
  Fourthly, even so, it is said, the Indonesian claim that Indonesia moved several brigades into Kalimantan at very great cost and inconvenience to guard against the so-called Malaysian encirclement of Indonesia cannot be entertained by any sane person. But a prominent Indonesian was asked in my presence how his country with 105 million people could possibly be sincere in feeling herself threatened by a country of eight million
  1782
  such as Malaya. "Why", he was asked very toughly, "was there all this talk of 'crush Malaysia'"? He made it quite plain that the quarrel was with the British and not with the Malayan people. He said, "Look at it this way. Do you agree that America with her 180 million people is the most formidable fighting force on earth? How is it, then, that the American felt themselves threatened by Cuba? It was the forces behind Cuba, and so it is with us".
  Viscount Lambton: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we had any kind of ambitions towards Indonesia?
  Mr. Dalyell: Personally, I do not believe for one moment that we have, of any kind, but however this Cuba analogy may appear to the strategists here in the House of Commons, it does hold water when seen from the rice roots around Djakarta to which politicians in Indonesia are sensitive; they really do see Malaysia as a puppet State—rightly or wrongly, it is their belief. My right hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Berwick-on-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) seem to have left out of their calculations the profound Asian suspicion of Western sponsored security arrangements. There may be an uncomfortably exact comparison between the feelings of the Indonesians today and those of Bolshevik Russia between 1917 and 1921 when the Russians believed that Western Europeans were ganging up on the Revolution. To echo the Foreign Secretary here—I will not say parody him—the background is the memory of every injustice of a man with a white skin against, in this case, a man with a golden skin—the background of the Dutch colonial empire, in its ruthless system of land tenure which was a very different proposition from the British in India.
  I cannot think of anything more calculated to drive the Indonesians against their will into the arms of Peking than the prospect of an Anglo-American nuclear force swanning around at large in the Indian Ocean. The notion of bases at spots such as Diego Garcia appears to be a fruitful source of instability in southern Asia promoting the very cancer of distrust.
  So I urge on my right hon. Friends a direct approach to Indonesia on the basis of mutual respect, offering, first of all, a

  1783
  sincere willingness to withdraw all military forces from Borneo, probably with the promise of a reassessment of voting in Sabah and Sarawak, perhaps supervised by an Afro-Asian commission; secondly, a positive—and it is not out of the question—Malaysian-IndonesianBritish co-operation in preparing educational and technical help to tribes such as the Ibans, the Land Dyaks, Kalabits, Puans and Muruts whose tribal areas extend both sides of the ethnically topographically and artificial frontier between Indonesia and the British Borneo territories.
  Is this a gamble? No, in my view, it is not a gamble: it is a calculation. If we want stability we should make this kind of approach, showing a genuine effort to understand the, admittedly, unusual Indonesian political philosophy, to welcome their recent attempts at currency reform, and to have serious discussions to see how in some way we can help ease the terrible economic problems which would face any government—any government—in Java. And when the Foreign Secretary lays down strict conditions about armed Indonesian action having to come to an end, I think perhaps it is a question of putting carts before horses, and there should be a mutual agreement here, and not an insistence upon a particular onesided timetable.
  The chief objection to such an approach—I have to face it—may be the attitude of the Government of Malaysia, but the time has come when Britain must obtain certain clarifications from Tunku Abdul Rahman. Perhaps he should be asked to come to London, as the distinguished and honoured guest that he always will be in Britain—but, none the less, we must reason together with the Tunku on certain matters.
  First, are the Tunku in particular, and the Malays in general, really serious about the Borneo war? I have a lot of evidence, some of which has been given to the Government, to the effect that the Malays regard the confrontation as primarily a British war and not a Malayan war. In particular, I ask this specific question, has Tunku Abdul Rahman ever suggested to a British Prime Minister, the former right hon. Member for Bromley or the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) or
  1784
  my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson), that given training facilities for Malay troops, Britain can fade out of both the bases on the Malay Peninsula and at Singapore? Because it seems a not unreasonable thing to suggest that if one has 27 per cent. of unemployment among young men in some of the big towns of Malaya, rather less, admittedly, in the rural areas, if they have training facilities, it might seem there would be a possibility of a phased British withdrawal, on the formation of a larger Malay army.
  Secondly, it would help to have a categorical assurance from the Tunku that he is giving no help to former Indonesian rebels at present living in Kuala Lumpur who may have designs of severing Sumatra from Indonesia. A clear understanding on this would be helpful because it matters in Djakarta.
  Thirdly, we must say this: "Tunku, since 50,000 British troops are risking their lives on your behalf in appalling conditions in Borneo and on service in the Straits, do you not think you might have told us in advance about the secession of Singapore from the Federation?"
  Fourthly, we might tell Tunku Abdul Rahman very bluntly that, his Government being responsible for imposing curfews in central Sarawak, on the innocent and guilty alike, they are inevitably creating another Cyprus situation for the British in Borneo. Though it is true that it was the Sarawak Government who decided on a curfew between 7 o'clock in the evening and 6 o'clock in the morning as a punishment for the brutal murders of 27th June, none the less let us be clear that the odium here accrues to the British, whose arms are seen to legitimise the Administration. Do not curfews, we might ask him, make rebels of farmers who were not previously rebels? After all, any farmer in this House on whom curfew is imposed, if he had, for example, to go out to attend sick animals or to look after animals farrowing, would very soon be forced to hide outside his compound, and as soon as people start hiding in jungles it strikes me that they become rebels, even if they were not rebels already.
  Fifthly, we should earnestly ask the Tunku whether he sees any future for the territories of Borneo inside the Federation other than as part of Maphalindo. In no

  1785
  hostile spirit the question has to be put, and we could point out to him that to many people in Borneo the Malaysia concept has gone sour, not least because the promised rural development foreshadowed by the Cobbold Commission in 1962 has not taken place. But we welcome the recently published Malaysian Plan, 1966–70, and the promise on page 11 to give priority to transport, communications and utilities in the Borneo States. This should be welcome and is to their credit.
  But some frank, though friendly, I hope, speaking has to be done with the Malays, and the Tunku might well be wise to ignore protocol and prestige and enter into negotiations with Indonesia, allowing Sabah and Sarawak to do the same separately, or at least to have representatives present as observers, when he discusses the Borneo territories with the Indonesians. Above all, any temporary attitudes struck by the Malay Government should not be allowed to foul our relationship with Indonesia. Yet we must recognise that even if the Borneo war is brought to a rapid conclusion our long-term relations with Indonesia will never be quite healthy till we have stated our timetable for a phased withdrawal from Singapore.
  Are there, then, other reasons, apart from Indonesia, for remaining in Singapore? Trade, perhaps? Well, sufficient to say that the Dutch, surely the most detested of all colonialists, are flocking back to Indonesia as managers, technicians, traders, teachers, and if the Dutch, and the French and the Germans and the Italians are trading all over Asia, I do not see why the British should not do so, or why we have to maintain some military force in order to trade.
  Or is it that we remain in Singapore to contain China? Well, we have the views of Joan Robinson, Joseph Needham and others that China is not expansionist. Their biases, I admit, are well known, yet they are reinforced by other people such as Professor Trevor Roper and Sir Robert Matthew, people who are not known for their Left-wing tendencies. They come back with the same view. Above all, supposing China was expansionist, I cannot think that the British base in Singapore would do much
  1786
  to determine the direction of her calculations.
  Or is it on account of the Americans that we keep the Singapore base? Since America looks to Indonesia in the long term to form a non-aligned power in South-East Asia and the only power in their view to counteract China, that is an altogether unlikely proposition.
  I am aware that the former idiotic activities of the C.I.A. and the plane shot down over the Moluccas soured American-Indonesian relationships, but of late, happily, they have been better, and the Americans can take no joy from either confrontation or Indonesia's suspicion of Singapore.
  Is the argument, then, that we are in Singapore because Lee Kuan Yew wants us there? If so, why does he want us? It is hardly because there is any serious possibility of an amphibious assault, either against Singapore or the Malay mainland, other than of a pinpricking nature. In the words of a non-aligned diplomat recently returned from Djakarta,
  "If Britain believes in the possibility of a full-scale invasion of the Malay mainland, she will believe in fairy tales."
  Obviously, Lee's main concern is economic, in a situation where British Forces provide some 25 per cent. of his gross national product.
  Viscount Lambton: Does the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) think that possibly the Singapore Government desire troops there in order to prevent the Indonesian Government invading them?
  Mr. Dalyell: That is not the view expressed by many people in Singapore. I think the point is that economic aid to thriving Singapore may or may not be justified, but, whatever the position, the preservation of a base is simply not a cost-effective way of doing it. It would be far better to spend some money on helping Singapore's transition from a commercial to an industrial city.
  I would guess that the presence of a British base is not sound from Lee's own point of view. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed raises the question, and I would wonder what goes on in the heads of young Singaporeans, 65 per cent. of whom are under 21 years of age, when they look at the fine residences

  1787
  in the ample acres of the British base covering a lush and significant part of their own overcrowded island. If the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed thinks that my judgment is so wide of the mark, how does it come about that, faced with a dynamic administration such as Lee's, with a housing record second-to-none in Asia, the clumsily-led Barisan Socialists can get 40 per cent. of the votes on a straight Marxist ticket? That is the sort of question that the hon. Member has to answer, and it is certainly not as clear-cut as he makes out.
  So all this is about Britain's place in the world, and I am just asking that we should learn the lesson that France learned 12 years ago at Dien Bien Phu and what the Americans are now learning so painfully in Vietnam—not to meddle in Asian affairs by having permanent bases.
  Before summarising, there is one argument that I rather hesitate to use, and I wait to be convinced about it by my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell), my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett), who have done a lot of work on it. I am rather sceptical about whether, in the short term, any withdrawal from the Far East would significantly help the housing and education programmes to which we are all committed. I would prefer to conduct the argument in terms of foreign policy rather than in the short-term benefit to the British economy.
  In summary, first we should have a direct approach to Indonesia on a basis of mutual respect and immediate withdrawal from Borneo within a given space of time and in consultation with the Malays. Secondly, we must reason together with the Tunku, and particularly about the internal position in Sarawak. Thirdly, we should withdraw or give a time-table for withdrawing from Singapore, give up the purely delusive military influence that goes with bases and substitute the real influence that comes with technical, commercial and educational co-operation.
  Fourthly, this is the time to give two and a half months' warning to the Government that if on 1st March it comes about that we take up the option on the
  1788
  F111 for reasons that appear to be solely connected with the Middle and Far East, I for one will feel unable to support that decision in the Division Lobby.
  Finally, I have a point that I find personally disagreeable, but, before I put it, perhaps I might say that no one in the House has taken more interest than I have in Latin-American studies, and urged the teaching of Spanish in schools, about which I have had Adjournment debates. South America is extremely important, but I do not think that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is spending his time well by going there.
  It seems to me that a Foreign Secretary should conserve his strength and be here in London to take charge of the Foreign Office. A Foreign Secretary should spend his time in the Recess either having a well-deserved holiday or studying critically the briefs that are put up to him by the Foreign Office. There are many Foreign Office knights who love to see Foreign Secretaries, both Conservative and Labour, chasing off all over the world. But, without being impertinent in any way, I would prefer to see my right hon. Friend spending his time, with some leisure, studying critically the briefs that are put up to him on Vietnam, on Malaysia and Indonesia, and on relations with Europe.
  However, if he goes to Lima, perhaps he could find the time to come back via Djakarta, Singapore and Kuala Lumpur and find out for himself precisely what is going on.
  8.18 p.m.
  Sir Hamilton Kerr: As I intend to take the advice of my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) and talk for less than 10 minutes, I hope that the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) will forgive if I do not follow him up on some aspects of Far Eastern policy. Like many of his hon. Friends, he seems highly critical of Government policy and, by inference, of the Foreign Secretary. Perhaps he feels about him as Disraeli felt about Gladstone when he said, "If Mr. Gladstone fell into the River Thames, it would be a misfortune. If some one hauled him out, it would be a calamity."
  These debates allow us a brief opportunity to take a hard look at the realities of the present world. Listening to the

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  speeches of hon. Members, one tries to form in one's mind a clear picture, firstly, of what we are trying to do, secondly, what means we are using to try to attain our objectives and, thirdly and perhaps most important of all, to form a clear picture of the exact priorities that we wish to obtain. It is on that question of priority that I wish to base my few remarks.
  It is a strange fact that in the world today it is the nations that have been conquered which have made the greatest effort. France had her country twice fought over and her railways and bridges shattered by bombardment. In Germany, the night attacks by the Royal Air Force and the day attacks by the American Air Force reduced her industrial cities to stinking rubble. In Japan American Flying Fortresses reduced to charred ashes the great Japanese industrial cities. We, on the other hand, never had the misfortune of being conquered or occupied. We never heard the roar and rattle of German tanks down our roads. We never heard the tramp of German boots in our cities. Nor did we have to read the disgraceful headlines of a doctored Press. But, as a result, it seems that we came out of the war a victorious nation, perhaps feeling that, having won the war with our allies we could carry on exactly as before. Sometimes, in my more depressed moments, I feel that we are almost in a drugged dream about ourselves, and that we as a nation have lost the gift that we used to possess of clear sight.
  It is a commonplace that today we look out on a world of two great power groups, two great Powers which are able, by the weight of their armaments, by their atom bombs, by their guided missiles, to shatter the world in a few seconds—two great powers whose immense economies, with resources in the soil and in the factories, outstrip the rest of the world. We find also a great group of neutral Powers, the so-called Afro-Asian group, sensitive as all young nations, very vocal at the United Nations, which are balancing their forces first one way and then the other.
  At first sight this might seem an alarming picture, but if one looks at the military situation, I come to the conclusion that the danger of atomic war is receding. We are told—the Foreign Secretary will know this better than I do—that Russia maintains about 750 ballistic missiles in
  1790
  East Europe, but should she use these, the forces of retaliation from the United States and her allies would be so formidable in the form of a shower of inter-Continental ballistic missiles, short range missiles, and Polaris submarine missiles, that the Soviet Union would inevitably be destroyed.
  If one looks at the military picture, at so-called conventional weapons, it does not seem that an attack on Europe is imminent. We are told that the Russians have in Eastern Europe about 25 so-called light divisions. Opposing these are 12 German divisions, five so-called heavy American divisions, and in addition the French and British contributions. The Russian force, therefore, is not strong enough to obtain an immediate victory in the course of a lightning attack.
  For many years I have had ties of kinship with the United States, and at present have the honour of being one of the joint secretaries of the British American group in this House. I have a very clear instinct that—by slow but inevitable steps the United States and the Soviet Union are moving to an accord, and I shall try to give the reasons for this apparently mad statement.
  First, I believe that Russia realises the growing danger from Communist China. The Chinese have never been a seafaring people, and their easiest area of expansion would be through the thousands of square miles of Mongolia. In addition, inside the Soviet Union various factors are at work. First and foremost, we are told by experts from the United States and from Europe that Russian production, though excellent in certain aspects, is only about 40 to 60 per cent. of that of the United States. We are told that the new and powerful governing classes in Russia, having with their forefathers, sacrificed the comforts of life to obtain the benefits of the revolution, hydro-electric plants, tractor factories, and powerful armaments, are demanding more consumer goods in the form of better standards of living, better food, better houses, and better clothes for their wives But the fact is plain that the Russian economy cannot support the two aims of immense armaments and an increased standard of living of consumer goods, therefore my instinct tells me that in the course of time she will move to an accord with the United States.

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  Have we any possible fear of the repercussions of such an accord? Will the interests of Europe suffer? I believe not, under one condition, namely, if we proceed—and this is the priority which I wish to stress tonight—to organise European industry on a continental scale similar to that of the United States or Soviet Russia.
  During the war I had the opportunity of visiting great factories in the United States to write descriptions of them for our people here. I saw Detroit able to produce as much armaments as an entire continent. I saw the great factory at Willow Road producing a Liberator bomber every hour of the day and night on an assembly line a mile long and composed of 800,000 parts. I saw the great Rivera Rouge plant producing a jeep every minute of the day and night. I saw the Pratt and Whitney factory at Hertford, Connecticut, producing engines for Liberators and Flying Fortresses, and I thought at the time that if Emperor Hirohito, Hitler and other Nazi leaders could be given a free pass to Detroit alone, they would quickly have sought an agreement for peace.
  I believe that the one hope for Europe and ourselves is to organise industry on a continental scale. If we do not do that we cannot blame the Americans if they invade our markets. It is like trying to stop a tidal wave. As the danger of atomic war recedes, it is our first duty to organise European industry on a Continental scale.
  Those are my three brief points. I believe that the danger of atomic war is receding. Secondly, we must organise European industry on a continental scale. If we do this, there will be nothing to fear eventually from Russian American accord.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. Edmund Dell: My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) tried to dissuade my right hon. Friend from going to Latin America. He did so in a very interesting speech, and I should like to take out that point to try to encourage my right hon. Friend to persist in his current intentions, despite my hon. Friend's remarks. If my right hon. Friend goes there, I think he will find that the rate of increase of the
  1792
  Latin American population is not perhaps as great as he said in the course of his speech. I suspect that even the virility of Latin Americans will not be capable of producing 600 million Latin Americans in 20 years' time. Nevertheless, they are increasing fast. Their importance in world affairs is already great and is becoming greater, and I am sure that it is of the highest importance for this country to make our relations with Latin America very much closer and more friendly than they are at the present, and at the same time to develop much more trade between us than has been our recent experience.
  I have intervened in this debate because I want briefly to discuss the connection between our foreign policy and our economic resources. Since the war we have been learning slowly the implications for our foreign and defence commitments of the fact of scarce resources, and perhaps the greatest of all the dilemmas which have confronted our post-war Governments have been those which have set economic necessity against defence commitments. This is a dilemma which, unfortunately, has not yet been successfully resolved.
  Britain has a slow rate of economic growth, and perennial balance of payments difficulties, and she now has an enormous volume of debts which she has to pay off. Yet the demands placed upon her by the international situation have been as great as, if not greater than, any which she has had to face before in peacetime. The Times, in an editorial today, referring to this debate, says:
  "The lessons of history make it necessary for Britain always to make the utmost use of her strength within those limits"—
  the limits referred to being those of prudence and book-keeping—
  "rather than accepting them as an encouragement to an easy life."
  I am not speaking of an easy life. I am not speaking of promises concerning social security. My hon. Friend has referred to the importance of housing, but I am not speaking of that. I am speaking of getting out of debt and achieving the minimum rate of economic growth without which this country cannot maintain its defence capacity.
  In Europe and in the North Atlantic the logic of our scarce resources has largely, although not entirely, been faced. As one hon. Member has said, we are

  1793
  working through groups. We have an alliance which is of a new kind. In the old days nations brought to alliances a full complement of defensive weapons. They could, if necessary, withdraw and still retain an all-round defensive armament, which meant that in a real sense they could be independent. In this new type of alliance—N.A.T.O.—no one, except perhaps United States of America, provides a complete defensive equipment. Certainly to do so would be far beyond United Kingdom resources.
  We supply a component—not the whole thing, but a part—which means that we have sacrificed some sovereignty and the right to the determination of an independent foreign policy. We can influence alliance policy; we cannot decide it. We cannot withdraw from it without threatening the security not merely of our allies but of ourselves.
  I wonder whether we have understood the logic of scarce resources in our policies east of Suez. There used to be an idea of an independent "east of Suez" rôle for this country—a rôle which would give us a seat at the world's top table. This idea included such proposals as a nuclear guarantee for India which would make it unnecessary for her to manufacture her own atomic weapons. I do not believe that the Indians would find such a guarantee from this country credible. In any case, the idea of an independent rôle for this country east of Suez is fading under the influence of the Defence Review.
  The Defence Review makes explicit a principle long implicit in our affairs—that commitments must be limited by resources. The £2,000 million target expenditure for 1969–70 means that there are certain commitments which we cannot undertake, however desirable they may be. This £2,000 million—and in my opinion the figure is too high, although I am prepared to accept it, in the circumstances—must not be exceeded. I suspect that the Government are finding that the £2,000 million is even more restrictive of commitments that they can accept than they originally thought. I think that they are finding that even after the most favourable assumptions about getting out of Aden in 1968 and about the end of the confrontation between Malaysia and Indonesia, what is left after
  1794
  making essential provision in Europe is very small indeed.
  Certainly it is not enough to provide for an independent rôle for this country East of Suez—a rôle in which we would provide a complete military force, equipped with its own aircraft and aircraft carriers. I suspect that the Government are finding that it is barely enough for a significant component in an alliance. We shall hear more about the results of my right hon. Friend's visit to Washington tomorrow, but it is the implications of this situation that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been to Washington to discuss.
  The American attitude seems fairly clear. They want us to remain East of Suez, first, because they find the Indian Ocean and the area beyond to be a very lonely place and, secondly, because there are certain areas—the Persian Gulf, the Indian Ocean and East Africa—in which they believe we can do things that they might find difficult. The British Government, too, seems to want to remain, because to do so is a qualification for a seat at high table; because unless we do so the Commonwealth will lose a great deal of its substance, and because it is East of Suez today that the current major dangers to peace exist.
  In short, the Americans want us to stay and the British Government wants us to stay. But the Defence Review shows, first, that we cannot afford an independent role and, secondly, that we can afford, at best, only a small component in an allied force.
  Therefore, the proposal emerges for some sort of integrated or co-ordinated defence system in the area, in other words for a N.A.T.O. type of alliance east of Suez for which every one, again with the possible exception of the United States of America, provides merely a component, and in which some sovereignty and the right of independent determination of foreign policy is submerged. There is something of a dilemma here. It is our apparent independence in the area that equips us for the special rôle which the United States of America wishes us to perform. If we lose that appearance of independence we lose that special rôle and hence much of the reason for being in the area at all. Moreover, there are some very specific questions

  1795
  which must be asked about this proposal. The right hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames) put one of these questions, namely what are to be the political objectives of such an alliance, of such an integrated or co-ordinated defence system, if it is created?
  I would like to put some further questions. Can this country provide the effective components for two such different forces in Europe and Asia? Can we share sovereignty in two such different alliances in different parts of the world without conflict arising as to where our prior commitments lie? Will we not be under continual pressure from our alliance partners east of Suez to add to our contribution? Is not such pressure an inevitable result of the very instablility in the area which calls for our presence there in the first place? Could we hope to meet such demands without unacceptable diversions from our commitments in Europe? Would it be possible to make such transferences from Europe without the most dangerous political consequences to our position in Europe? In the end we must be sure that we give primacy to British interests and that means that primacy must be given to our commitments in Europe.
  Will we not be drawn reluctantly but inevitably beyond the £2,000 million limit which the Government have placed on defence expenditure in 1969–70? Perhaps this dilemma can be put a different way. We would have two pillars, one in Europe and one in Asia. To both of these we would have pledged our support. From the pillar in Europe we could not, in any circumstances, withdraw our support. From the pillar in Asia we would not wish to withdraw our support, at any rate without preparation. But, and this is the difference with the Asian pillar, if Britain were forced by an economic crisis to make a choice, it would be from the Asian pillar that we would withdraw, because for us Europe must have priority over Asia.
  It would be utterly dishonourable to enter into commitments which we cannot fulfil, or for a longer term than we could fulfil them. The Government must ensure that whatever rôle remains to us for a few years east of Suez, is one that we can sustain and from which we do not have to withdraw precipitately, leaving
  1796
  behind us a vacuum which it might take a war to fill. It might be best if those two pillars could be brought together to sustain joint burdens. Unfortunately, for the moment, that does not seem likely and if it cannot be done we, too, will have to withdraw.
  Meanwhile if our commitment is genuinely and severely limited and does not escalate we can perhaps stay a little longer. I fear that inevitable pressures will force costs upwards and in that case, if we cannot bring these two pillars together, we will have to go. We are a country with a world view, but without the resources to sustain a world role. I do not ask that we should put blinkers on and ignore the existence of problems merely because we cannot tackle them. But unless we husband our resources we shall end not as a participator in the determination of events but as a helpless victim of them.
  8.40 p.m.
  Viscount Lambton: I should like to say how much I enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell). I wish to take up many of his points later in my speech, and I hope that if the hon. Gentleman is not too hungry he will be able to hear what I say on them.
  I should like to make the briefest reference to the happenings in Africa. It seems to me that Her Majesty's Government are now determined on a course which makes negotiations with an alternative Government in Rhodesia almost an impossibility. They are, therefore, committed to bringing down the Government without there being an alternative Government in sight. The consequences of this will, I fear, be grave both for Europeans and Africans, for as long as both South Africa and Portugal remain neutral the Smith Government have the power to hold on until they can bring the country down in ruin or establish an authoritarian State. I should not have thought that either of these ends was one towards which a Labour Government should be working.
  I wish to speak about a very different subject, which is our foreign policy east of Suez, and if on occasion I stray into the field of defence I hope that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will forgive me since the two subjects are dependent and indivisible.

  1797
  There is an open belief on the other side of the House and, occasionally, a muted belief on this side of the House that we should contain ourselves West of Suez, which, for some reason or other, has become a sort of magic zone beyond which we should have no responsibility and from beyond which we can suffer no repercussion. It is surprising that many of those who hold this view neglect the fact that it was the object of Her Majesty's late Government, and, I am sure, of the present Government, to withdraw from direct responsibility whenever possible. Both parties have had a joint purpose to work towards this end—to create individual States and to support free nations independent in every sense of the word.
  We can point—I speak of the area loosely designated as east of Suez—to the newly created nations of India, Burma and Pakistan. When we conceived the Malaysian Federation six years ago, it was not our intention that we should have 50,000 men under arms within the area. Neither has it been the intention of any politician of any party, as far as I know, who has had anything to do with the creation of the Aden Federation that this should result in anything but a reduction of our direct responsibility.
  At the same time, we have carried out, especially in the Middle East, a policy of support and stabilisation of independent nations, and the success of that policy is surely to be seen in the peace which exists in the Trucial Coast and the Persian Gulf. For the first time we may confidently say that the star of President Nasser, who, after all, has been the great troublemaker in the area, appears to be on the decline, and his partial withdrawal from the Yemen has lost him great face. The growing ascendancy of King Feisal could give the area a leader who policies were not founded on conquest and revolution.
  If this peace continues, the need for British armed presence is reduced. But could anything be more damaging to the achievement of this hope than that we should withdraw too soon, for even the suggestion that we might do so could, by reviving the forces of opposition, unnecessa7ily prolong the period of our armed presence?
  Nevertheless, the fact remains that a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite, in loud tones, and a number of my hon.
  1798
  Friends, in muted tones, still believe that we should withdraw west of Suez and abandon, and reconsider, our alliances from Suez to Hong Kong. I will consider the arguments from each side of the House in turn, for they are quite different.
  The argument from some hon. Gentlemen opposite below the Gangway is that they do not believe in our foreign policy east of Suez, or, for that matter, in our foreign policy west of Suez either. In other words, the supporters of this view do not believe in a foreign policy which is based on strength and they would like to see the £2,000-odd million per year which we spend on arms to give our foreign policy some meaning reduced and the money spent domestically at home. Defence expenditure has always been the pot of gold at the end of the Socialist rainbow. However, their argument is not purely self interested. It is also idealistic, pacifist and, above all, perennial—for precisely the same argument was used to great effect in the 'thirties to encourage this country to disarm when Hitler and Mussolini was arming.,
  Mr. Dell: I hope that the noble Lord is not referring to my remarks in that context, because I specifically welcomed the N.A.T.O. Alliance and because my argument was in no sense pacifist.
  Viscount Lambton: I thought that the hon. Gentleman hoped that we would be able to spend less money on defence.
  In any case, as well as being used in the 'thirties, the same argument was used in the 'forties to dissuade the Labour Party from manufacturing the atom bomb. It is used again today, and I have not the slightest doubt that it will continue to be used with perfect sincerity by hon. Gentlemen opposite who believe that the world can be ruled by good intentions. However, perhaps the fairest estimation of the value of this argument is that while it sways the Labour Party when in Opposition, it has very seldom influenced their policy when in power.
  Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: We believe that the world should be ruled by law whereas the noble Lord appears to think that nothing but military power counts for anything.
  Viscount Lambton: I was not saying that. I recall that the right hon. Gentleman was a Member of the Government

  1799
  who took the decision to manufacture the atom bomb in the years after the last war.
  I turn to the muted argument sometimes used by some of my hon. Friends to the effect that we should concentrate on the defence of Europe and abandon our foreign policy east of Suez. How simple would our problems be if we could solve them in this way. But how can we accept such a 19th century argument when we are engaged in a global cold war and are faced with the same challenge and challengers in all parts of the world? How would this suggestion fit into the context that it proved impossible to put limits on either of the two great European wars and how could it make technical sense to guard merely one avenue in Europe against Communist aggression and leave all the other avenues east of Suez open for the same enemy to go down unopposed?
  Let us have a brief look at our commitments east of Suez. The situation in Hong Kong is totally different from that of the Middle East. It is often suggested that we can make economies both in manpower and expenditure there because the garrison could never be a match for the Chinese Army. Who has ever suggested that it could be? Who has ever suggested that it was? Certainly no one in China, and certainly no one in Hong Kong.
  We keep troops and preserve our influence in China, not to wage war there but to keep internal security in the event of riots. When a few years ago there were riots in Kowloon, practically the whole garrison was needed to keep order. Do we want to risk losing what one can only describe as an ear on China's face, which is of almost inestimable value in allowing us to have some comprehension of what is going on in China? Would it, therefore, be sensible by making reductions here to risk the overthrow of the garrison and its consequent reinforcement by a bigger force?
  Let me turn to another area east of Suez where we really participate most—the Malaysian Federation and Singapore. As I said earlier, it certainly was not our intention when we created the Federation six years ago that we would have militarily to underwrite it as well. This we have been forced to do by the direct
  1800
  confrontation from Indonesia, sometimes supported by China and sometimes supported by the U.S.S.R.
  At this moment, of course, the confrontation has ceased, but it would be an optimist who thought that this was anything more than a momentary lull. There is nothing more tempting to a State with internal troubles than to divert attention to a neighbouring nation which it alleges threatens its own security. Successive Governments of Guatemala have played this game with great zest in British Honduras, and Menderes largely maintained his rule in Turkey by a concentration on the Cypriot issue. So whoever wins in Indonesia, it is likely that this confrontation in Malayasia and Singapore will recommence and as the Chinese Prime Minister of Singapore has made it plain that he will not accept American aid, we shall be called on to give it or risk the Peninsula falling under Communism.
  At this point I would digress to say that there are those who believe that we can have influence without presence. This is, alas, untrue. My second digression deals with a report that the Labour Government—Her Majesty's Government —are asking that we should share our responsibilities with America. Although any discussion upon this subject is obviously premature, it is relevant to point out that if our Forces became too integrated with America, China would resent very strongly our presence in Hong Kong and Singapore would bar our presence from the island.
  Apart from these digressions, we must consider what would be the other implications of our withdrawal. Not only would Singapore and Malaysia be undermined, but the whole American effort in Vietnam would be isolated and we would shatter the whole Anglo-American Alliance. Are we prepared to do this? Are we prepared to argue that it is even remotely sensible to retire to Europe and give the East over to Communism, and to pretend that in Europe we can isolate ourselves from world politics?
  I would argue that there are the very best of reasons for the closest association with Europe but, surely, the most valid criticism of Europe today is that it is becoming inwardlooking in a changing world, and our aim in joining it should

  1801
  be to turn its energies outward, and not to use it as a retreat from responsibilities which we cannot avoid.
  There are other arguments which traduce our efforts by arguing that only by national willpower will nations of the Far East and Middle East resist Communism, that they cannot be supported permanently, and must make their own decisions. This is true, but I would argue that nations should at least be given the chance to decide what their future is to be. If we withdraw at the moment, we should take away support from countries which are taking their first uncertain steps, such as Malaysia or Singapore, or which are, as in the case of Aden, not yet born. If we withdrew guidance, it would mean their destruction and we should never know whether they could or could not have supported themselves. Surely we should not risk such an overwhelming loss that could occur to the free world by merely being logical and arguing that we cannot afford our present defence expenditure and that as a result we should withdraw from four-fifths of the world.
  I would remark, in passing, upon the doubts of relying upon logic as political law, for unfortunately in politics pure logic is sometimes pure nonsense.
  Before we commit ourselves to withdrawal, there are two questions which we should seriously ask. Could we afford to fight the last war? Can we afford to lose the cold war?
  In conclusion, I should like to make it clear that it is my aim, as I am sure it is the aim of all hon. Members on both sides of the House, to advocate economy east of Suez wherever possible. But that must surely be done within a responsible framework and avoiding false economy which could produce great expenditure later, for there would be nothing sillier than withdrawing totally when it is possible for us to economise and retain our influence.
  Mr. Dalyell: Is it not a fact that Tunku Abdul Rahman asked either the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) or his predecessor the right hon. Member for Bromley whether it would not be possible on receipt of certain training facilities in Malaya for Britain to make a fairly quick and complete withdrawal of troops?
  1802
  This fact or non-fact, whichever it is, is the noble Lord's argument be answered.
  Viscount Lambton: The hon. Gentleman cannot honestly ask me to answer for my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) or for the former right hon. Member for Bromley, who is no longer in this House. After being interrupted by someone who made one of the strangest speeches I have ever heard in the House, I return to what I was saying. It is dangerous and a political fallacy to try to look too far into the future. I believe that we should look, as Sir Winston Churchill once said, far ahead but not further than one can see. We must not lose sight of the fact that we are at this moment engaged in a cold war in which the Communists probe and test for any weakness in the Western Alliance and, when they find it, be it east or west of Suez, use it for their own advantage.
  We live today in a contracted world where in a strategic sense each country is each other's neighbour so that no nation may point to another and say, "The internal affairs of that State are no concern of ours"; for if we do we will isolate ourselves from the struggle upon which the future of the free world depends and leave America isolated and alone to bear the whole responsibility of positive Communist aggression, while we will do nothing but rest safe behind the American reared barriers of Europe with our heads in the sand.
  8.59 p.m.
  Mr. Ioan L. Evans: This debate has been wide-ranging and the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) will forgive me if I do not follow him in dealing particularly with the east of Suez issue. On the general question of defence expenditure, the noble Lord misrepresented the views held by many of us on this side. We believe that expenditure on defence should be in keeping with our economic resources. We argue that, with a balance of payments deficit of £800 million, as we had last year, it is foolish to talk of increasing military expenditure.
  When we talk about trying to solve international problems we should have

  1803
  more regard to our economic rather than our military strength. This question of linking defence commitments with international affairs is relevant, because we cannot separate economics from foreign affairs or defence. Our attitude to defence and economic questions is shaped by our attitude towards other countries, and our attitude towards other countries is equally determined by the strength of the economy, which in turn determines what we can spend on defence.
  I should have liked to deal with both long-term and short-term problems. It is a pity that in a debate like this discussion ranges so widely. In future, when we have a two-day debate, we might consider dealing with specific issues like Rhodesia and Vietnam on the first day and on the second day dealing with long-term problems which in these debates we tend to neglect.
  There are many areas of possible conflict in the world at present. Reference has been made to the problem of Rhodesia. It is right that this should be dealt with in a foreign affairs debate because it is no longer a domestic matter. It certainly affects our relations with other countries. We find them lining up to break off political relations with us because they think not that we are doing too much but that we are not doing enough to break the evil Smith régime.
  There will be far-reaching results from what is happening in Southern Rhodesia. If the illegal Smith régime were to succeed temporarily—and we all know that it will not succeed permanently—a serious, explosive situation will develop in Africa. Indeed, it is already developing there. Some hon. Members liken the situation in Rhodesia with the Suez situation, but it is quite different. It is true that on Suez there was division in this country, but at the time the Government sat on one side of the fence and on the other side we had the United States, the Soviet Union, the Commonwealth and the United Nations, all condemning the actions of the then Government. But on the subject of Rhodesia we find the United States and the Soviet Union, the Commonwealth and the United Nations on one side of the fence, all condemning the Smith regime's actions in Rhodesia, together with the present Government and, I hope, the Opposition condemning
  1804
  it. If, therefore, we can succeed through economic sanctions in bringing about in Southern Rhodesia a new Government pledged to multi-racial government, and if this is done without bloodshed, a new chapter will be written in the history of the assertion of the rights of man and a solution will be found to this complex problem.
  Another part of the Commonwealth is involved in conflict. I refer to the tragic situation in India and Pakistan. It is tragic to find these two countries, both members of the Commonwealth, involved in military conflict. Instead of dealing with the problem of poverty, they are whittling away their resources on unnecessary military action against each other. I hope that they will come to realise that a greater enemy—hunger and famine—faces them both. In their situation, surely, they should come together round the conference table to resolve their differences. I was in India when independence was granted. I thought then that the division of the sub-continent was the real solution of the problem, but we have to hope that those divided countries will come to move together in facing their problems.
  Another area of conflict in South Africa, a country dedicated to halting the wind of change, in which, for the time being, it has succeeded. It has, however, created an insufferable political stench. The situation beneath the surface is boiling and the people of South Africa are sitting on a volcano.
  Other hon. Members have dealt at length with the area of conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia. Recent developments in Indonesia and Singapore could, perhaps, lead in the near future to preparations for talks between Malaysia and Indonesia. There should, perhaps, be an initiative to bring Indonesia back into the United Nations. It was the only nation to leave the United Nations, and I hope that an initiative will be taken by the Government to bring Indonesia back, because in this way we might well resolve the difficulties in that area.
  Another area of conflict is the two islands of Cuba and Dominica. This raises the important question of whether countries have the right to have a Communist Government if that is their choice. What right have people outside those

  1805
  islands to say, "No, you should not have that sort of government. You should have a Government which is to our liking"? We must face the fact that although we might disagree with the political system which those countries are developing, it is the system which their people prefer.
  Another possible area of conflict for some time in the Middle East will be between the Arab countries and Israel. I know that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been in Egypt and I hope that the Government will use their good offices in bringing these countries together, because I believe that the people of Israel are trying to create a new Jerusalem, trying to find a national home for the Jewish people. I hope that we will increase our efforts to bring the Jewish and the Arab people of that area closer together.
  Here in Europe, the real point of conflict is the problem of East and West Germany. We would all agree that the real solution would be to try to bring about a united Germany, but there are precedents for divided countries. It was a Labour Government who recognised that what was formerly India had to be divided into India and Pakistan. A war was fought to ensure that Korea remained divided. The Americans are fighting in order that Vietnam shall remain divided. I need not remind hon. Members that we have among us hon. Members from Northern Ireland. We are prepared to accept the division of Ireland. Why cannot we think of accepting the idea of a divided Germany for many years to come? If we could accept and recognise both the East and West German Governments, this would ease the situation in Berlin and would lead eventually to both of them coming into the United Nations.
  In the Far East, there are China and Formosa. People talk about the years ahead. We have to recognise that one person in five in the world is Chinese. Both the previous Government and the present one have recognised the Peking Government and we support their desire to come into the United Nations. In supporting their desire, however, it is not enough for us simply to say that we will vote for them. We must not insist upon a two-thirds majority vote at the United Nations. Surely, a simple majority
  1806
  should be sufficient. It is important that all nations should be represented in the United Nations. China, with one in five of the world's population, should be represented there.
  Vietnam has been dealt with at length today and doubtless will be dealt with again tomorrow, but it is now perhaps the most serious point of conflict in the world. It is important that the Government, who, I know, have done much to seek a peaceful solution to the problem, continue to do their utmost to bring an end to this horrible military operation, in which gas and napalm are used. When we see photographs of the bodies of little children mutilated by napalm bombs, we should use every effort to try to bring this conflict to a conclusion.
  We might have criticisms about the North Vietnam Government and criticisms about the Vietcong. But who do we find leading the South Vietnam Government? It is General Ky, who has said that the man that he most admires is not President Lincoln, President Kennedy or President Johnson but Adolf Hitler. I should have thought that he was hardly a leader of a country with whom we would like to be associated.
  I turn to the long-term problems. I believe that in a debate of this kind we should not only deal with the short-term issues but try to contemplate some of the problems which are likely to emerge at a later stage. One of the fundamental problems is world poverty, and linked with that is the problem of colonialism and racialism. The last war was fought against the "master race" theory, the thesis of Hitler—belief in the herrenvolk. Unfortunately, such ideas are being put forward today in a most sophisticated way in Johannesburg and Salisbury. Those who fought against the belief in racial superiority in the last war will have fought in vain unless we seek to reject that belief in racialism, which has been expressed in the House in a roundabout way. We now find that colonialism is nearing its end. In Southern Rhodesia today we are listening to one of the last swansongs representing the desire of a group of people to keep others under political subjugation.
  Now that the Government are continuing the task, started by the previous Administration, of turning the old Empire into a new Commonwealth. I think we

  1807
  might constructively consider the smaller territories which are too small to become politically independent. In the years ahead we might consider handing them over to be administered by the United Nations. If we could bring the scattered islands in the Pacific and other parts into United Nations' responsibility, it would be a step forward.
  As to the serious problem of world poverty, there were many people in former colonial territories who thought that once they obtained political independence they would solve their problems. They now know that independence itself does not solve economic problems. Having gained political freedom, they now have to work for economic freedom. Two-thirds of humanity is suffering from poverty. I am pleased with the Government's action in setting up the Ministry of Overseas Development. I hope that all the industrialised nations in the Western world will establish similar ministries so that in our cabinet rooms we can discuss what we can do in the more developed areas to help the people in the undeveloped areas.
  I return to the points made by the previous speaker. He said that we might talk of building up our economy but that we should at the same time maintain our military strength. I believe that as a nation we shall not be economically strong in the next few years unless we reassess and review our defence commitments. The world is living under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation. A nonproliferation treaty should be our first priority.
  I was pleased that the Prime Minister, in his United Nations speech, made one of the main features the need to try to get the world away from the haunting fear that in the not too distant future it might destroy itself. We should remind ourselves of what H. G. Wells wrote in his book "The Shape of Things to Come" in the 1930s. He predicted the end of the world in 1966. That is a sobering thought in December, 1965.
  Modern fiction writers have vividly presented the agonising situation in which we live today. For example, there was Nevil Shute's book "On the Beach" and the recent American film "Fail safe". If we are allowed to see it, no doubt
  1808
  the B.B.C.'s production "The War Game" would also show the real dangers of nuclear warfare.
  Today, two-thirds of humanity are living in want. Yet the world is spending about £50,000 million in an arms race for a war that no one wants. Such is the illogical situation. Indeed, the leading nations spend more on armaments than the total national incomes of Asia, Africa, and South America.
  The other main problem to which we must address ourselves is East-West relations. The main ideological struggle has been between Communism and capitalism and we have the situation in which one-third of the world is Communist, one-third supports capitalism and the remainder in between is undecided. I believe that if the conflict is between Communism and capitalism, then a plague on both their houses.
  I believe that the world has something to gain from both these "isms". John Stuart Mill, in his "Essay on Liberty", posed the social problem which faces humanity. He said that the great social problem was to bring about common ownership of the means of production and distribution while maintaining the maximum amount of individual liberty. I believe that it will be through democratic Socialism that the world will eventually be able to have common ownership of the means of production and distribution plus individual liberty.
  The veteran French Socialist Léon Blum said that one cannot have Socialism without democracy nor democracy without Socialism. It is certainly true that one can have a form of one without the other, but, like love and marriage, one cannot have genuine democracy without Socialism nor genuine Socialism without democracy. If the planned economies of the East can develop a more democratic political system and if we in the West can develop planned economies while maintaining democracy we shall be moving towards greater world understanding.
  The hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr) made the interesting suggestion that we should try to organise ourselves on a continental basis in trading organisations. The re-election of President de Gaulle would seem to point towards this being done. When speaking of Europe it is important to realise that it extends

  1809
  from Gibraltar to the Urals and we should try to bring the European Economic Community, the European Free Trade Area and t he Comecon countries closer together and eventually to an outward looking United States of Europe.
  Finally, wholehearted support of the United Nations should remain a cornerstone of our policy. We must support it in all its ways. We must create more effective peace-keeping machinery and see that Governments support it to a far greater extent. We must see that it develops more agencies and extends its activities. In such a way can we take steps towards bringing about the world government which, in the end, is the only true way to bring about world disarmament and lasting peace.
  9.20 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Kirk: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Joan L. Evans) quite rightly said that one of the great problems of a debate of this kind was that it tended to be very discursive. I think that it is fair to say that his own speech illustrated that point, for he covered a great deal of ground which I do not now intend to follow because of the short time for which I have promised to speak. I want to address myself to one problem which has been worrying me more and more over the past months and years. It is the steadily deteriorating situation, as I think it to be, within the Atlantic Alliance.
  By this I do not mean that we are any less determined than we were in 1948 or 1949 to defend the way of life which N.A.T.O. was set up to defend. What I am worried about is that the methods by which we are now choosing to do it seem to be less and less appropriate to the situation which we have to face. We appear to be still ready, still in a posture, to meet with a greater or lesser degree of efficiency a land-based attack in Western Europe, although I think that all of us know that the possibility of this actually happening is so slight as to be almost completely remote. We appear also to be ready to defend our way of life by the use of the nuclear deterrent—and I am sure that that is right—extending over the European area a nuclear guarantee based on the American Strategic Air Force and the Polaris fleet.
  1810
  What we have not overlooked but done absolutely nothing about in alliance terms is the fact that the threat with which we are faced now seems to lie outside Europe and while we have three alliances, only one can be regarded as effective, and that covers only Europe and the Atlantic area. I do not think that the proceedings in Paris last week of the North Atlantic Council, interesting although no doubt they were—and we all regret very much that the Foreign Secretary was unable to attend them and we hope that he is now completely recovered —clarified the situation to any great extent.
  For example, there has been a complaint by hon. Members opposite—and although I do not share it, I can understand their concern—about the lack of connection between our policies in various parts of the world and the policy in Vietnam. I can understand that they can see a certain distinction. From time to time, there has been complaint about the lack of connection, or lack of cooperation, between our policies and United States policy in Latin America. From time to time we might have made a complaint about the lack of connection between our policies and American policy in the Continent of Africa.
  The conclusion which one must draw from this, and the conclusion which many people draw but which nobody seems to do anything about, is that we are operating on an alliance system designed for a situation of 16 years ago but which has now radically changed and that the most urgent need in our policy today is to rethink not simply nuclear questions or simply our policy towards this or that country, but the whole basis on which N.A.T.O. was set up.
  Let there be no mistake—N.A.T.O. itself has succeeded splendidly. It has been the one great outstanding success since the end of the war, and it has succeeded because the countries which came together to work in it worked for a common goal in a limited field and knew what they were doing and had full consultation going on the entire time. It is probably true to say that they knew each other's minds better than any other group of nations almost in the history of the world.

  1811
  Of course, having succeeded it is now beginning to break up. This is inevitable. Anything as successful as this alliance is bound to reach the point where people ask what is the point of going on, believing that they have won. I do not think that we have won. We have won the limited operation in Europe and I give great credit to the part which successive Governments in this country have played. But we have not won throughout the world and certainly if we take the wider concept of what N.A.T.O. is intended to be, we have not won in the sense that we are keeping the peace throughout the world. We are keeping the peace in Europe because of N.A.T.O., but we are not keeping the peace in Asia, or in Africa, or in Latin America. In addition to this, there is another divisive element in N.A.T.O. which I know my own Front Bench when I had a very small say in these affairs was very concerned about, and that is the growing imbalance inside the alliance between one country and the rest because of nuclear power.
  All this, it seems to me, tends towards one conclusion—or, perhaps, two. First we have to tackle the question of nuclear power and control. Various attempts have been made to do this. The Americans put forward their idea of a multilateral force. It did not seem to win much approval. Our present Government put forward their idea of an Atlantic nuclear force. This seemed to win even less. Now Mr. McNamara has come up with the idea of a committee—no doubt an excellent idea, but I cannot see that it is going to achieve very much, unless once again we realise that any solution to this problem posed in purely European or Atlantic terms is bound to fail, for this problem, like many another, is global. I am not, as the House knows, I think, a Gaullist in any sense of the word, but General de Gaulle has pointed out to us more than once with his unshakeable logic that we are just as much likely to be blown up by a nuclear holocaust which starts in Vietnam as by a nuclear holocaust which starts in Europe. Therefore, in this sense, our security is indivisible.
  What we have, therefore, to consider is that surely any system of nuclear control cannot be confined to the Atlantic area but must be one covering the whole of
  1812
  the interests of what we like to call the Free World throughout the world, so that no decisions can be taken—we hope no decisions can be taken—in the nuclear field, which are bound to affect all of us, without our having at least a say in those decisions and how they are reached.
  This is, of course, a pretty wide ranging proposition. I realise to the full that it depends upon a degree of co-operation throughout the alliance and particularly from the United States which is unlikely to be reached in the near future, but I do not think we should fool ourselves as we have been inclined to do, from time to time, by the belief that we can settle this thing on a kind of small experimental basis, by insisting on some kind of nuclear control among ourselves inside the Atlantic alliance imagining that we have then solved the problem. Because we have not. What has been a problem inside Europe and the Atlantic area is rapidly becoming much more than a European or Atlantic interest.
  That is one problem, and it leads inevitably to the second, and the second is that nature of the alliance. I think there should be only one. We have three at the moment, as I have said, one of which is effective, one of which is virtually dormant, and one of which, S.E.A.T.O., seems to be of very little effect. The one alliance must be an alliance covering the world world, and it should contain not only the European and North American countries which it contains at the moment but such Commonwealth countries east of Suez as choose to join, and it would consist, I would hope, of Australia, New Zealand and Pakistan, being members of existing defence agreements with us or the United States, and possibly some other Far Eastern countries such as Malaysia, and as many of the African States as would care to participate. This would be an attempt to construct a multilateral defensive alliance not directed at any specific target but directed to a kind of N.A.T.O. operation in which there would be as much exchange of information as possible, as much exchange of policy as possible to try to ensure throughout the world the sort of settlement which we have de facto at any rate achieved in Europe.
  I think there is one concomitant of this. I apologise for bringing in what I

  1813
  know is my King Charles's head. Nevertheless I think it fits into the pattern. It is that the predominant power of the United States within this alliance has got to be balanced by another power of equal at any rate economic strength, and this can only be, so far as I can see, through a tightly knit European community. So I hope we would be members of it. The European economic community was thought of in purely economic terms, but I would not think of this community primarily or purely in economic terms. It is also a political exercise, and always has been, and although there were regrettably, attempts both in my own party and in other parties to stress the economic matters I am certain that we on this side in the main have not pretended—I have not—that it was anything other than political. Nor can we now.
  I must admit that Government policy on Europe seems to me to be totally incomprehensible. I listened with the greatest possible care to the Foreign Secretary, but the only thing that he did was to repeat the five conditions which he knows make it impossible for us to join the Community, and yet at the same time he said that the Government wanted to join it. Then he proceeded to attack the conduct of the Conservative Party. I have attacked it often enough in past years, but it does not lie in the mouth of any hon. Gentleman opposite to attack it in view of the performance of the Labour Party in the past 10 or 15 years. In my opinion it is time we stopped all this raking over of ancient history——
  Mr. M. Stewart: If the hon. Member thinks that it would be best to stop raking over ancient history, I would point out to him that I only referred to it in response to an intervention from an hon. Member opposite.
  Mr. Kirk: Several matters were raised at that moment, including the responsibility of the Labour Party itself when it was in power before, so it does not lie in the mouths of hon. Members opposite to criticise the Conservative Party, even though individual members of it were pressing for unity with Europe.
  The European Community is not one that can rest finally on the niceties of economic matters. It is something that one has to accept whole or not at all. One of the things that worry me at the moment I must admit, is that with the
  1814
  crisis which the Community is going through at present there is a danger that at some stage France or one of the other five may turn to us and say, "We cannot go on like this. Will you be prepared to start from scratch, and we will renegotiate the whole thing and possibly come up with something on a wider basis, like E.F.T.A.?" If that happened, it would destroy the whole basis on which the Community was built and the whole reason for our going in at all. It is not just a trading basis. It is an attempt, the first of its kind in the world but I hope not the last, to create a new international order.
  It is possible to take objection to the details. We can all take objection to detail in all these matters but, on the principle, I would have thought that almost any Member of the House who cares about international law and order would be prepared at least to accept in principle that it is the way the world is going to be organised in the future. Unless one can start on a regional basis, one is not likely to get it on a worldwide basis. That is why Europe is the vital key and has been for years, though we do not seem to have realised it, to the future world organisation that we seek.
  I would like to believe that it was possible, but I do not think we can move straight away from the present system of divided nationalisms immediately into some kind of embryo world order. Things do not work in that way. The only way in which it can be done is to start with an area which is roughly comparable economically, socially and culturally, and build up from it.
  I have been making two points, I hope fairly clearly. The first is that the state of the alliance as such must be a matter of very grave concern to all, whether we approve or disapprove. The present state of disintegration is not such as can bring joy to anyone's heart except that of a potential enemy.
  Secondly, we have rising up before us, with difficulty, a new system of international order which, whatever the details may be, is in principle the way in which world order to going to develop. It is surely up to us at this stage to try and marry those two facts together and, from them, to devise a policy which makes sense in the second half of the 1960s instead of a policy drawn up for the second half of the 1940s.

  1815
  That is not to say that N.A.T.O. was ever wrong. It has succeeded. It has been a great success story. But now is the time for N.A.T.O. to give way to something bigger, closer and better. I hope that the Government and certainly, when shortly we return to power, our Government, will devote their efforts towards that end.
  9.35 p.m.
  Mr. Reginald Maudling: This debate today, the first day of the foreign affairs debate, has been overshadowed of course by the critical situation in Rhodesia, which has led to a rather unusual situation. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition proposed that, for the convenience of the House, today we should discuss general questions of foreign affairs and tomorrow we should concentrate on Rhodesia, and by and large that is what has happened. There have been some references to Rhodesia, but generally the debate has ranged very wide across the globe, from Latin America to the Far East.
  There is, I understand, and this is why I am speaking at this late hour, to be no Government response this evening. I am not quite sure what plans the Government have for replying to the important points which have been made during the debate from both sides of the House. The Prime Minister will be speaking tomorrow, and I think that the House is expecting to hear from him both his views on Rhodesia and something about his talks in America, about which the Foreign Secretary did not enlighten us, no doubt for very good reasons. The debate tomorrow will be largely about Rhodesia, and I am not quite clear at what stage tomorrow the Government will reply.
  In view of the importance of Rhodesia, I think it will be found that most of the speeches tomorrow will tend to concentrate on this point, and I think it will be expected, certainly by this side of the House, that the Government's answer to tomorrow's debate should deal thoroughly and extensively with the problem of Rhodesia, which we regard as of critical importance at the present moment.
  In the event, today's debate has ranged very wide. The Foreign Secretary dealt with many problems. On this side of
  1816
  the House we admired his particularly stout defence of the Government's position in Vietnam, a position which we support, though I gather not everyone else in the House does.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Soames), speaking from this Bench, explained our position on Vietnam and went on to give a particularly penetrating analysis of the question of European defence organisation. He posed to the Government some questions which are of the highest importance and to which, surely, in the course of this foreign affairs debate some reply must be given. The A.N.F., the M.L.F. and the McNamara proposals are of fundamental and urgent importance, and it is very important that the Government should give some response.
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Thomson): The right hon. Gentleman seems to be asking that tomorrow the Government should simultaneously answer the points which have been raised today and yet confine their remarks to Rhodesia.
  Mr. Maudling: I am pointing out the dilemma in which the Government have left themselves, hoping they will find some way of getting out of this peculiarly difficult situation.
  Mr. M. Stewart: The practice of not having a Government winder-up on the first day of the debate was commonly adopted by the last Government. As to there being a dilemma, the subjects dealt with in tomorrow's debate will be entirely for those who catch Mr. Speaker's eye to choose. It is not for the right hon. Gentleman to lay down whether Members shall confine themselves to one subject or another.
  Mr. Maudling: That is a very good bit of protocol, but these are exceptional circumstances, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it.
  It is interesting to note that during the many speeches made during this debate speakers on this side of the House concentrated very much on the European problem. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey (Mr. A. Royle), my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) and my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk), who made a particularly

  1817
  interesting speech about Europe and the relationship of the European problem to the global Western defence problem, have raised issues of the highest importance. From the other side of the House we have heard some interesting and vigorous speeches, particularly about the Far East. We had the rather peculiar speech of the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), and I shall refer to that later when I get to that stage of my remarks.
  All I wanted to say in opening was to put a proposition about what seems to me to be the background to foreign affairs at the present moment, and how that background has been changing quite significantly. Obviously the purpose of any foreign policy must be to achieve a universal system of law and justice that is working and enforceable. On that I think everyone would agree. As my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden pointed out a few moments ago, there is no possibility of that at the present moment. There is no prospect in the foreseeable future of a comprehensive and effective system of international law. We must therefore base our policies upon achieving harmonious relations among the great Powers. That is the only possible basis of foreign policy.
  What is important is to recognise that the great Powers situation has changed considerably in recent years. It is no longer a matter of a clash between East and West—a clash between the Western world, led by the United States and the Eastern world, led by Soviet Russia. There are now four great Power units —the United States, Western Europe, Russia and China. It is a quadrilateral pattern of power, consisting of four units and not two.
  Our objective, therefore, must surely be to achieve agreement between these four great Power groupings, or, if it is not possible to achieve agreement, at any rate to seek to achieve a working balance. At the moment the balance of terror, as it has been called, is operating. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr) referred to it. Let no one despise the importance of the balance of terror. An adequate supply, even if not an overwhelming supply, of modern weapons can be an adequate deterrent, but the mere power of the weapons them-
  1818
  selves, as they grow stronger and come into more hands—such as those of the Chinese—is leading people increasingly to think that they may become too powerful ever to be used.
  Thoughts are turning again to the question how a deterrent can be provided under the umbrella of nuclear weapons, and the temptation to aggression which can arise in this situation of nuclear stalemate.
  The four great Powers to whom I have referred differ in many ways. Russia and China are still revolutionary—old in civilisation but young in power—and at different stages of their revolution. China is still in an expansive phase—although I know that the hon. Member for West Lothian does not agree; he should ask the Indians what they think about it—and thy; Russians are at a stage of consolidation. The main purpose of Russian policy is to consolidate the present situation and avoid further adventures.
  In a way the United States is still a revolutionary and expansive power. I am often struck by the similarity in conditions in the United States and the Soviet Union. The United States have had thrust upon them a world power and influence which they did not go out to take. It has been presented to them, and in my submission they are carrying it with great strength and integrity of purpose.
  Finally, there is the European power concentration or unit—older, in many ways, than America, and older, in a sense, than the Communisms of Russia and China. Europe has passed through a phase not of expanding but contracting world power and, to some extent, influence, and through it at a time of greatly increasing material comfort in her own countries. All this bears very much on our attitude to foreign policy, the determination of our peoples to carry out really vigorous foreign policies and the need to explain to them consistently why these policies are necessary and why the burdens they involve in terms of our comforts are equally necessary.
  In the situation of these four Powers the greatest danger clearly is an alliance between the two revolutionary Powers—Russia and China. Here there is the possibility of expansive and explosive development. We must always bear that

  1819
  in mind, and our objective must be to secure agreement between the United States, Europe and the Soviet Union. Here, as the Foreign Secretary and my hon. Friend have said, we have in common the same desire, to maintain peace and to avoid the disturbance of international relations by aggressive tendencies. We must work for a tripartite agreement and understanding between Western Europe, the United States and the Soviet Union.
  But even if we cannot get this at the present time, in the meantime, above all, we must aim to maintain the integrity of the West and co-operation between Western Europe and the United States. This is the first point which I wanted to make, and I think that it underlines everything which we discussed in a foreign affairs debate—the maintenance of the integrity of the Western Alliance must come first. If it does not, if it is undermined, it will be very difficult to see what else we can do effectively in any part of the world. We must judge all our actions and policies in foreign affairs against this problem of the four great Powers and against the problem of achieving a possible harmony and, failing that, achieving a balance between them. Every thing which the great Powers do, every shift among them, creates new problems in other parts of the world and everything we do in other parts of the world affects the relationship between the great Powers.
  Vietnam is obviously the most urgent of our problems. The future of the Commonwealth, with the danger of Chinese penetration in Africa, the danger of Chinese pressure on India, the United Kingdom's relations with Europe, the redevelopment with N.A.T.O., the question of the A.N.F., the question of our relations with the European Community, our relations with Latin America and Japan, all of the things which the Foreign Secretary has mentioned have to be looked at against this background of the need to establish a balance in what is now a world of four major Power units.
  I want to say one or two things about Vietnam. We entirely support the line taken by the Foreign Secretary in this debate. We believe that it is a problem arising from Communist aggression. We accept also, and I think that the evidence
  1820
  is clear, that the United States is prepared and anxious to have discussions without conditions, but that this willingness to discuss is not shared by the people of Hanoi. It is logical that the Americans should wish to have discussions. They are not in South-East Asia to gain treasure, they are not in South-East Asia to expand their boundaries. They are leaving their treasure and their blood in Vietnam. They are there not for aggrandisement or enrichment of the American nation but because they believe that they must oppose the aggression of the Communists against South Vietnam.
  The Foreign Secretary rightly said that there is no outright victory to be gained in this battle. When I spoke in the summer with Mr. Kosygin he told me that the Americans could not win. I told him that the Americans would not lose. This is the situation. The collapse of the American position in Vietnam would send ripples of disaster over a very wide area of South-East Asia, an area in which we have great commitments. We have our commitment to Malaysia and I was surprised to hear what the hon. Member for West Lothian had to say about that. He seemed to think that the so-called confrontation of Malaysia by Indonesia, which I would describe as invasion, was the fault of the British. I must say that was one of the most extraordinary arguments I have heard. If he looks at the history of the development of Malaysia and what was said by the Indonesians from the start, he will know that this has been one of the most obvious acts of aggression in the recent history of the world, and we must deal with it on that basis.
  Mr. Dalyell: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that his Government sent in battalions of British troops to put down, somewhat roughly, an uprising in Brunei, which, though it may have been led by an adventurer, was nevertheless a popular movement. If that had happened near our shores, we might have reacted in the same way as the Indonesians.
  Mr. Maudling: It has nothing whatever to do with the invasion of Indonesia. I was in Kuala Lumpur last year when the first Indonesian paratroops were landed on Malaysian territory. If that is not invasion, I do not know what is. We

  1821
  have a most serious obligation in that part of the world and I hope that no one, on either side of the House, would cast any doubt on our intention to carry out our obligations to the people of Malaysia.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that not only was his Administration arming the Indonesians but also that the United States was doing so until very recently, if not until now?
  Mr. Maudling: I think that that intervention, is even more irrelevant than the previous one. The object in Vietnam must be to start negotiations. It must be clear that any weakening of the American position would make negotiations not more likely but less likely. That is why I believe that this Government, in maintaining general support for the American position, are doing the right thing in the interests both of this country and of South-East Asia as a whole. I am delighted that the Foreign Secretary has rejected the criticisms so generously showered on him by his hon. Friends below the Gangway.
  There is clearly great need for the maintenance of British influence east of Suez and for collaboration between Britain and the United States in that part of the world, as my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) pointed out. We have large interests in that part of the world, and so has the whole Western world, which would suffer if there were the collapse of the Western position and if as a result expansive Communist forces spread across possibly the Indian sub-continent to many other areas of South-East Asia. We and the United States are bearing a burden in that part of the world which is of great importance to our friends in Europe as well.
  The significance of Vietnam to the position and morale of Berlin should not be overlooked. In the burden that we are carrying we are entitled not only to understanding but to practical support as well.
  That is all I wanted to say about Vietnam. I want to turn for a little while to the problems of Western Europe which seem to me to stand out from this debate as being the most important problems we have discussed. Clearly the future of N.A.T.O. is in question. Clearly, too, the
  1822
  success of N.A.T.O. to date has been remarkable. The fact that the focus point of danger has shifted from Europe is a tribute to the effectiveness of the N.A.T.O. system. Therefore, we must always start by remembering how important N.A.T.O. is and not by assuming that the dangers which N.A.T.O. was brought into being to deal with have necessarily passed for ever. We must maintain the integrity of N.A.T.O. and, at the same time, recognise that changes in the relative balance of economic power between America and Europe and in the relevant area of threat to the Western world, call for changes in the character of the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
  Since N.A.T.O. was formed, Western Europe has become relatively more powerful economically in relation to the United States. That must be recognised. I do not accept the thesis that in order to be partners with the United States we must be just as powerful as they are. This is not true. I do not think that two partners have to be of equal size and power. What is true is that there must be no domination of one partner by another. But it is equally true that both partners must respect the views and interests of the other and must totally devote themselves to the interests of the alliance or partnership. This is the true purpose of partnership, and it must be reflected in changing the structure of N.A.T.O. to come into line with the changing balance of economic strength and economic potential in the N.A.T.O. area.
  N.A.T.O. will have to be changed to reflect the movement of the threat to the Western world from the immediate position in Europe to the position in the Far East. If N.A.T.O. is to be effective world wide, the other important development must be a move forward in our relations with Western Europe.
  In my concluding remarks, I want to return to the question of our relationship with the Common Market countries which has been referred to so often today by my right hon. and hon. Friends and which, to my mind, is crucial. As the House is well aware, the Community is going through an extremely difficult period with the tension between the French and the other five partners in the Community. It would be the worst possible thing for us to succumb to side with

  1823
  the French against the other five or with the other five against the French. Perhaps the particular English genius in political matters could help to solve some of the problems which are confronting the Six.
  It is clear that some degree of political integration is essential for an effective economic community. If we are to have an effective economic community, there must be central control of economic policy and background. On the other hand, I do not think that this represents in practice any need to move towards a federal system in political terms. The problems of Europe can do with more examination on a pragmatic basis. I do not think that they should be examined entirely, as they tend to be, on bases of theory or philosophy. Our relations with the Six are really of immense importance, and I must stress what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bedford said about the effects in Europe of the attitude which has been taken by the present Government to the question of our relations with the E.E.C.
  Building bridges is not enough. Bridge building may be all right from a temporary point of view, but knocking down barriers and so on—or whatever the particular analogy the Prime Minister favours at any time—are purely temporary measures. The only effective solution to the problem of Western Europe is the entry of Britain, and other Western European countries into the E.E.C. Clearly, this has been inhibited by the present or recent attitude of General de Gaulle, but I think there are some grounds for hoping that even that inflexible attitude may become more flexible in the future.
  However, we will not make progress or deserve or expect to make progress if, in the meantime, we are not preparing ourselves for moving forward into Europe. We could do that in two ways; by building up such collaboration as we can across the tariff barriers—working to reduce barriers on particular items, individual products and so on—and also to make the W.E.U. and the Council of Europe more effective, as my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey and my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham pointed out.
  1824
  These are, of course, temporary matters and will mean nothing to the people of Europe unless there is a clear determination on the part of this country and Her Majesty's Government to seize the first opportunity that shows itself for us to join the Community. And the five conditions just will not stand up to that. The Foreign Secretary was, I thought, a little uncomfortable today about the five conditions. He said that some of them were getting easier to solve—he spoke of agriculture, E.F.T.A. and about the Commonwealth—but these were all dealt with effectively in the negotiations which were conducted by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. The really difficult conditions among the five are those about independence of foreign policy and the right to plan our own economy.
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Maudling: Hon. Gentlemen opposite exclaim "Hear, hear", but that is precisely why the people on the Continent of Europe believe that the present Government are not sincere in what they say on this issue. It is all very well to talk about maintaining our own independent foreign policy, but this afternoon the Foreign Secretary told us solemnly that we must recognise, in the modern world in which we live, that we can only operate through international groups. If one is to operate through an international group, how can one at the same time maintain the integrity of one's foreign policy? We believe that this is inconsistent one with the other.
  The main objection is the condition about planning the economy. The Prime Minister has said what he thinks about the Common Market [Interruption.]—I am always ready to quote the right hon. Gentleman—and about the basis of the Treaty of Rome; that the whole basis of the Treaty of Rome is anti-planning, a competitive economy and so on. If he really believes that, how can he possibly say that we should join the E.E.C. only if we can maintain the integrity of our National Plan? These are the differences between what the Government say and what Europe understands to be the necessity of the forward march of the E.E.C.
  In this foreign affairs debate let the Government not underestimate the

  1825
  damage that could be done to our prospects in Europe if they persist with the so-called five conditions to which they seem to be tied as though with an albatross around their neck. No one in Europe will take us seriously if the Government continue on that line, and, until they do take us seriously, our prospects for the future are dim.
  Mr. Warbey: On a point of order. I beg to move, That the Question be now put.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Bowden.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Bowden): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a business statement.
  With the business for Tuesday, the House will be invited to consider the Motion on the Southern Rhodesia (Petroleum) Order, 1965.
  Mr. Edward Heath: As the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House is aware, since the business for this week was arranged, to which he has now made an addition, there has been the laying of the Order last Friday evening, after the House had risen, and the statement by the Prime Minister this afternoon. In the light of these, the Opposition has placed on the Order Paper this evening a Motion concerned with Rhodesia, which the Opposition would wish to discuss tomorrow instead of having the debate on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Bowden: I am aware that since the business statement we made on Thursday an Order on Rhodesia has been laid for discussion tomorrow night. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition correctly informs the House that the Opposition has tonight tabled a Motion——
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now Adjourn.—[Mrs. Harriet Slater.]
  Mr. Bowden: As I was saying, the Opposition have tabled a Motion on Rhodesia with a request that it should be debated tomorrow, and the Government have tabled an Amendment. There is nothing within the Motion or the Amendment which could not also be debated tomorrow equally well in the Adjournment debate on foreign affairs. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is making a statement tomorrow on his recent visit to the United States. This has been requested. A full debate will take place during the whole day, and anything contained within the Motion or the Amendment could be correctly debated, according to the Orders of the House.
  May I say, also, that to alter the business of the House at this late stage and debate the Opposition Motion and the Government Amendment tomorrow would be quite unfair to the House, which had been promised a two-day foreign affairs debate. I could not agree to such a change at this late stage.
  Mr. Heath: The Leader of the House has said that the Prime Minister is making a statement tomorrow on his visit to Washington. It would be quite normal for the Prime Minister to make a statement after a foreign visit—that has often happened—but although the matter may be in order on the Adjournment tomorrow it does not give the House an opportunity of having, as the Government have now tabled an Amendment, a Division on the Motion and the Amendment placed on the Order Paper. So the House is put in the unhappy position in which it will discuss matters in the Motion and the Amendment but cannot formally express its opinion on them.
  Mr. Bowden: The Leader of the Opposition will be aware that a week ago he asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to open the foreign affairs debate on his return from the United States—which it now appears he could have done because he came back to make his statement—but it should be clearly understood that anything that could be said can be equally well said tomorrow. If it is the desire of the Opposition to divide on the Motion we can certainly debate the Motion and the Amendment at a later stage, but I am sure that tomorrow we must continue with

  1827
  the foreign affairs debate. This can be done when we resume after the Recess.
  Mr. Heath: I do not want to take up the time of the hon. Member who has the Adjournment debate—I do not know who he is—but the Leader of the House has been a little out of touch with reality if he thinks that the House can adjourn on Wednesday and not debate this important Motion and Amendment until it comes back at the end of January. So I must indicate to him that if he is not able to meet the general wishes of the Opposition in this matter in a two-day debate in which the Opposition have provided a day, we must find alternative means of expressing our views in the Lobby.
  Mr. Bowden: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will take the opportunity of dividing the House tomorrow, perhaps on the Adjournment, at the end of this debate. That is rather different from dividing on Rhodesia, and he probably realises that.
  Mr. Heath: No, what is quite clearly realised is that we can indicate precisely the reason why, if we seek to do so, we are going into the Division Lobby, which is always the case on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: I am sure that many hon. Members will welcome the opportunity to have a debate and to give formal acknowledgment and
  1828
  support—or, perhaps, opposition; I do not know—to the oil Order, but am I right in thinking that the Prime Minister originally intended to make a statement tomorrow which would cover many interesting aspects of foreign policy in which all hon. Members are acutely interested, not necessarily touching on Rhodesia—ߞ
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Member will put his point briefly. We are using the time of the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine).
  Mr. Thorpe: Do we take it that we will now only have a statement from the Prime Minister on the result of his talks, and is there not some way in which we can not only debate the Rhodesian Orders but also have a speech from the Prime Minister?
  Mr. Bowden: I see that I have not made myself clear. The Prime Minister will make his speech tomorrow on foreign affairs, and part of it will include Rhodesia. It will be quite in order for any hon. Member to say anything he wishes about Rhodesia or anything about the Amendment that the Government have tabled, or the Motion tabled by the Opposition tonight. The difficulty is that it is not in front of the House now, but when it is, in the morning, it will be seen clearly that that can be debated tomorrow. As for the oil Order, if the House so wishes it can divide against that tomorrow night after Ten o'clock, when it is taken.

  FLOOD PREVENTION, ROCHFORD
  10.5 p.m.
  Mr. Bernard Braine: It is one of the blessings of our Parliamentary system that we spend a great deal of time talking about affairs of worldwide importance, as we have been doing today, but we can also find time to ventilate the grievances of Her Majesty's subjects. That is what I propose to do tonight.
  For some years now the Hockley, Hawkwell and Rochford areas of my constituency have been subject to serious flooding. This is due to the inability of the existing water courses and the River Roach to cope with the surface water. As the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate, the problem has worsened as considerable building development over a much wider area has interfered with normal drainage and has caused an increased run-off of surface water. My latest information is that about 160 residential properties are periodically flooded by surface water and are sometimes cut off completely and that half of these are subject to flooding from foul sewers caused by surface water infiltrating into the sewerage system. Certain roads are flooded and one which serves Southend Airport becomes impassable once or twice a year. The flooding of farmland has resulted in the loss of growing crops and the erosion of soil.
  This has caused and is causing great anxiety and discomfort to a large number of my constituents. Periodic flooding of homes by sewage-contaminated water is not only distinctly unpleasant but carries with it, as our area medical officer of health has recognised, the risk of sewer-borne infection.
  Up to last year there was some division of responsibility for dealing with the problem in the sense that the Essex River Board, or the Essex River Authority, as it has now become, was responsible only for main river drainage at the extremity of the area affected, the internal drainage area being the responsibility of a number of local authorities. In November, 1960 the Rochford Rural District Council formally asked the Essex River Authority to take over responsibility for certain
  1830
  water courses in its area. The authority began an investigation, but no decision was taken at that time.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate that for obvious technical reasons it is not possible to tackle a drainage problem of this magnitude in piecemeal fashion or to leave it to separate local authorities. Suffice it for me to say that improvement of certain channels would only increase flooding elsewhere; it would simply transfer the problem from one area to another. As the Joint Parliamentary Secretary knows, it was precisely considerations of this kind which led to the setting up of river authorities in the first place.
  So it was that in August, 1963 the Essex River Authority proposed to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that it should take over responsibility for an enlarged internal drainage district in the Rochford area and should prepare a comprehensive scheme. Since then two new developments have combined to make a comprehensive scheme imperative. First, the proposed extension of the main runway across Southend Municipal Airport at Rochford involved a major interference with the drainage of that part of the area and in order to prevent serious flooding in the town of Rochford it became necessary for the River Authority to acquire a site for wasteland within the Airport's boundaries. Secondly, a long-delayed traffic improvement scheme for Rochford involving the construction of a by-pass calls for the diversion of the River Roach. Although the Essex County Council as highway authority would have to bear the cost of realigning the river it asked the river authority quite properly to meet the cost of any improvement of the channel. In this it was supported by the Ministry of Transport.
  In the event, the authority agreed to a contribution for an improvement, subject to approval of its scheme for grant aid by the Ministry of Agriculture. The response of the Ministry to the Authority's proposal in 1963 was not too enthusiastic. It undertook merely to look at the problem on the basis of existing needs, ignoring the fact that with rapid development in the area—this is one of the most rapidly developing areas in the country—the problem was bound to grow. It took the view, I understand, that the

  1831
  cost of improvements should be a charge on the developers, in the area, although it gave no indication as to how this might be enforced. However, I understand that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government made it clear that such a requirement could not be imposed as a planning condition.
  By the beginning of 1964 it was clear that unless a sense of urgency was injected into the situation those of my constituents who were already suffering grievously from flooding would soon be faced with an intolerable situation. So it was that in February, 1964 I intervened and pressed my hon. Friend the then Parliamentary Secretary to secure a firm decision on two matters. The first was to resolve the division of financial responsibility to the proposed road works as between the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry of Agriculture. The second was the making of a firm decision on grant aid for the river authority's proposed scheme as a whole.
  In March, 1964, I was told that discussions were proceeding with the Departments concerned and that the Ministry officials would discuss the matter with the river authority. These discussions, incidentally, took place at a time when we had a severe bout of flooding. A few weeks later the Parliamentary Secretary told me that as soon as the authority submitted its detailed proposals the question of grant would be considered. This was great news. Flooding was continuing but at least there was now some light at the end of the tunnel.
  The Essex River Authority lost no time. It submitted its proposals and in May, 1964, the Parliamentary Secretary told me that before a decision was made to offer graint-aid the Minister had to be satisfied that the scheme was technically sound and that the land drainage benefits justified the expenditure involved. This would take a little time to resolve but the Ministry assured me that they were
  "fully alive to the problems in the Rochford area and will complete our examination as soon as possible."
  Then came the change of Government and I had to start pressing a new array of Ministers. In the meantime, traffic congestion in Rochford was getting worse and no progress could be made by Essex County Council, the highway authority,
  1832
  until the contribution by the river authority could be settled, and that could not be decided upon until the Ministry had agreed upon the scale of grant-aid.
  In April the Minister of Transport actually made a decision. He gave his approval for the construction of the bypass and authorised a grant of £66,000 out of the total expenditure of £152,000 and we were all delighted. As expected, the grant did not include any contribution towards the £41,000 estimated cost of carrying out river improvement works, and the county council, not unnaturally, was concerned that no decision was yet forthcoming with regard to the contribution from the river authority.
  I had no option but to return to the attack on the Minister of Agriculture. In May of this year the Parliamentary Secretary told me that his Department's examination of the authority's proposals, estimated to cost about £350,000, would be completed as soon as possible but he was still not able to say whether grant-aid would be forthcoming. This was almost identically the same sort of letter that I had received a year before. Incidentally, flooding was again causing trouble to my constituents, many of them suffering from surcharging from the sewers. In July I again wrote to the Parliamentary Secretary, pointing out that there had been further flooding and asking whether a decision had been reached. I was faced with the same answer and a fresh excuse. He wrote:
  "I am afraid that our examination of the proposal submitted by the Essex River Authority is not yet complete. We have had to consult the Chief Valuer's Office to obtain an assessment of certain benefits from the scheme to existing properties and areas scheduled for development. As the work will also facilitate improvements to surface water drainage in the urban areas, we have also had to seek advice from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. We have to take this information into account before we can reach a decision on grant-aid. We expect to receive the reports shortly, and, when we have been able to reach a final conclusion on this scheme, I will write to you again."
  One wonders what had been happening in the intervening 12 months. In September I wrote again to the Parliamentary Secretary and said that I felt that it was high time that a sense of urgency was injected into the matter which had been hanging fire far too long. I wrote:
  "You said in your letter that you were hoping to receive a report shortly and that

  1833
  you would write to me as soon as you had reached a conclusion. I beg of you to expedite the matter."
  I received a reply, a very polite one, but, again, I was told:
  "We are still not in a position to give a decision over the proposals of the Essex River Authority. I can assure you that we are anxious to find the right answer to this difficult case as soon as possible and I will write to you again as soon as we are able to give the Essex River Authority our decision."
  My constituents and I were left to decide what was the reason for this long delay and for these fatuous excuses. Was it incompetence or was it something else? Was it due, possibly, to an internal struggle between Government Departments? Was the Ministry of Agriculture still trying to persuade the Ministry of Housing to put part of the cost upon developers? If this is the reason, I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will say so, so that my unfortunate constituents can know that they are being made to suffer while two Government Departments engage in a wrangle.
  Accordingly, I resolved to bring the matter to the Floor of the House, and I am grateful to Mr. Speaker for making it possible for me to ventilate it here tonight. It was interesting to note that within a few days of its being known that I was to raise the matter, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary wrote to me saying that the Ministry had been able to approve the authority's scheme in principle and to offer grant on expenditure not exceeding £200,000. Since the proposed expenditure was of the order of £350,000 and not £200,000, however, it will be seen at once that the Ministry's decision falls far short of what is required. Indeed, that decision is quite incomprehensible.
  From the very beginning, it has been recognised that the task of providing proper drainage facilities in this area of my constituency would have to be tackled by a comprehensive scheme. This has never been contested. The authority took endless trouble to produce such a scheme and its details have been known to the Ministry for months past. I suggest that only two conclusions can be drawn. Either the Ministry is trying to force the authority to embark upon a reduced scheme, catering only for present requirements and putting off the need to make adequate provision for the future, or it
  1834
  is trying to eliminate part of the scheme. Perhaps the Joint Parliamentary Secretary can explain what his Ministry is seeking to achieve.
  If the Ministry is seeking to force the authority to accept a reduced scheme after long months of negotiation, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will say so. Let him give the reason. Is it shortage of money? If so, I can tell him now that no responsible river authority is likely to engage in a project which, it knows, must be amended later to cater for future development at a greater cost than would be the case if proper provision were made now.
  Alternatively, if the authority is to be required to drop part of the scheme, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will say what part his advisers have in mind. Is it true that they consider that the proposals for the Hockley-Hawkwell area should be dropped as being less urgent than the others? After years of flooding and suffering from the surcharge of sewers in the area, my constituents are entitled to know what the Government have in mind in forcing a reduction in the scheme.
  The delay in bringing this matter to a satisfactory conclusion is had enough; it stretches over a period of two Governments and several years. But to make a decision which throws a carefully-planned scheme out of gear and forces a number of my constituents to continue to suffer the sort of discomforts which they have suffered for so long is unforgivable.
  Subject to whatever the Joint Parliamentary Secretary may have to offer by way of explanation or fresh information—I hope that he will be very forthcoming—I ask him to convey to his right hon. Friend the Minister my view that the decision is not only mean, but shortsighted. It is neither economical nor just. While clarification is sought and the scheme has to be amended, further delay is bound to be caused. I beg the Joint Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister to reconsider the matter and to do so with the utmost speed.
  10.20 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie): First of all, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) for

  1835
  raising the question. He has every right to ventilate it because it has been a difficult situation. I am sorry that after the change of Government he had to start all over again, but I can assure him that I do not think it made any difference to the train of events, and, important though his raising of the matter tonight is, I do not think it made any difference to the time the decision was made.
  The hon. Gentleman has catalogued the events leading up to the decision. I do not basically quarrel with what he has said, because he has been fairly accurate. It is rather gratifying—I am sure he is gratified—that following the recent rains, which have been clearly heavy all over the country, in Essex, where we both live, there has not been any excessive flooding—none last weekend, I gather. His constituents will be reasonably grateful about that.
  I think from what the hon. Gentleman has said that he appreciates that this has not been an easy drainage scheme either to cost or to decide the amount of grant that would be available, simply because —the hon. Gentleman answered his own point—of the complexity of it. It is not only a rural area with agricultural land, some of which floods and some of it which is affected by flooding, but it is a very highly developed area. There is an aerodrome concerned and there is a new road, and there is work on the river to make provision for this, all of which complicates the situation very much and has led to some of the delays about which the hon. Gentleman complained.
  I should like, first of all, to explain the general considerations that have to be taken into account in dealing with an application of this kind. Before approving a scheme for grant aid, we must be satisfied that the scheme is sound on engineering grounds, and also that the extent of the benefits justifies grant aid. Where the benefits which we take into account for grant aid match the cost of the scheme, there is no problem and approval comes quickly. Where the benefits are less than the cost of the scheme, we do not automatically refuse grant. We would in that case, if the calculated benefits were so much less, consider whether there were other benefits which would justify our giving grant
  1836
  aid towards the scheme although the other benefits were not such as could be directly grant-aided.
  The hon. Member has gone into some of the history of this problem in Essex, and I do not propose to go into it again. However, I should say that the first intimation that the Essex River Board considered work to be necessary on the River Roach and its tributaries reached us in August, 1963. The cost then—this is a very pertinent point—was estimated at £185,000. Before we could tell the board whether grant would be forthcoming, we had to ask for the details necessary to enable our engineers to examine the technical feasibility and soundness of the scheme and also apply the worthwhileness test which is applied to all land drainage schemes.
  There seems to have been a measure of misunderstanding on the part of the river board on the amount of detail which we had to have for these purposes. This led to considerable delay. But the board undertook to give priority to the detailed designing and costing of the scheme. However, I am afraid that, as the hon. Member said, it was not until March, 1965, that we eventually received the necessary technical information. At this point the proposals were shown to cost £350,000, which was substantially more than the first estimate that we received. Work began right away on the examination of the scheme in my Department. Our engineers pronounced it technically sound. It was evident that there was an urgent need for improvements to the carrying capacity of these rivers because of the increased run-off from the rapidly expanding urban areas. This happens wherever one has an urban area expanding; the run-off is quicker than from agricultural land.
  There were other objectives of the proposals which we agreed were sensible. But there were added difficulties in evaluating the benefits of the scheme in monetary terms and in matching the result with the estimated cost of £350,000, nearly double the original estimated cost.
  I will endeavour to expain why it has taken as long as nine months after the necessary information reached my Department from the river authority in March, 1965, to arrive at the decision which was conveyed to the river authority

  1837
  a few days ago. This had nothing to do with the debate. The decision was arrived at in the normal way.
  This requires a brief explanation of the mechanism of the "worth-whileness" test. I fully realise that many river authorities are troubled by the application of the test. There have been discussions between my Department and the Association of River Authorities about a possible change of system and when these discussions are resumed—I hope in the not too distant future—this will be considered further. Meanwhile we have to continue the present system of examination of schemes submitted to us by river authorities.
  The object, as I have said, is to try to assess the benefits of a land drainage scheme so as to compare them with the estimated cost. For example, this scheme should prevent the flooding of roughly 64 acres of agricultural land and make possible the under-drainage of 800 acres more. The benefit to this land is assessed by reference to the increase in production which should result and to the additional capital required by the occupier to bring this about. By a fairly simple calculation of the flooding in the area, one reaches a figure of, according to the hon. Member, 160 residential properties, some roads and, of course, the question of the over-flowing of sewers and so on. My figures are that flooding affects about 56 houses and about 8 acres of urban land.
  Mr. Braine: My information comes from the local authority—the Rochford Rural District Council.
  Mr. Mackie: I am not doubting the hon. Gentleman's figures. But one can have different ideas of what actually is flooding. The measurement of benefit of a flood protection scheme to urban properties is a more difficult problem because there are imponderable social factors as well as others which cannot be precisely expressed in money terms—for instance, there is hardship by flooding, lack of communications and so on. All these things are difficult to assess in monetary terms.
  The basis of the calculation for this class of land is an estimate of the capital appreciation of the property directly affected by the scheme, coupled with an
  1838
  allowance for additional special factors of the kind I have mentioned. The process I have described always takes time. These are not straightforward calculations and it is important to get them right. In this case, when we had the results, it turned out that the benefits calculated on this basis amounted to only £200,000 compared with the estimated cost of £350,000. The extra £150,000 is not eligible under this scheme for assistance.
  Looking into all this took yet more time. However, I am glad to say that the further examination of the scheme showed that it was of sufficient value to the area generally, in view of future development, improved surface water sewage and road construction which it would make possible. We therefore reached the conclusion that we would be prepared to pay a grant of £200,000 of the estimated cost of the scheme. At the present rate of grant of 80 per cent. this would mean a contribution of £160,000. I hope I have made it clear why our consideration of the scheme took as long as nine months and also why we are only able to offer grant on £200,000 of the estimated cost.
  Mr. Braine: Where is the balance to come from—the rates?
  Mr. Mackie: The river authority and the local council are the authorities concerned in looking at that. As far as the law is concerned, the Ministry can only give the grant I have mentioned. I make it clear that we are not pretending to anything like mathematical exactitude in making this test. Many people feel that the worth-whileness of a particular scheme of flood prevention should be left to the judgment of the river authority. But the Government have a considerable stake in this—the total of grant aid on land drainage works today is of the order of £5 million annually. A procedure has therefore been devised to enable us to apply a rough yardstick to the large number of schemes put forward by river authorities to determine which are likely to give the best value for money and to enable us to allocate the funds available to the best advantage.
  I know that our offer has been disappointing to the river authority. But I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have

  1839
  examined all the facts very closely and have done all we can to help. All this, of course, has taken time. Even at this stage we have invited the authority to submit any new and relevant facts which might enable us to increase the offer we have made. I hope that it will do so.
  I hope that I have shown clearly that the consideration of this scheme presented rather special problems to both the river authority and the Ministry. I hope that the authority will be able, in view of the offer we have made, to go
  1840
  ahead with the scheme and satisfy the hon. Gentleman's constituents. I am certain that if it does this the flooding problem there can be solved but I would like him to appreciate that under the present law there is no question—
  The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Oxford

MILFORD DOCK AND HAVEN
2.35 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows.
To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have for the future of Milford Dock.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, these docks are owned by the Milford Docks Company. The Government are aware of the difficulties facing the company, and are watching the position closely.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, which does not take us much further. But may I ask him whether he is aware that Milford Haven is one of the finest natural ports in the entire country? And, since it is a natural port for the import of iron ore would he look carefully into the possibility of making use of this port for the import of iron ore in bulk?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, it is agreed that Milford Haven— the docks apart—has excellent deep water; but, as the noble Lord will be aware, the steelworks are at Port Talbot and Newport. The Government issued a White Paper comparatively recently in regard to this question and I do not think there is any chance of their moving from the view they expressed in the White Paper.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the White Paper envisages ore carriers of up to 65,000 tons. and is he aware that these are already completely out of date; that iron ore is being carried in bulk carriers of up to
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100,000 tons, and that Japan is building one of 200,000 tons? This being the case, would he ask his right honourable friend to have another look at the conclusions in the White Paper?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, it is agreed that the initial capital expenditure of a terminal at Milford Haven might be less, but normal running costs would be higher than where it is proposed to site the jetties. It would mean a very long rail haul from Milford Haven to the steelworks at Port Talbot or Newport. But my right honourable friend, in conjunction with the Secretary of State for Wales, has this matter in hand.
LORD REA: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that we are in some danger of confusion between Milford Dock, mentioned in the Question, and Milford Haven, which is a much bigger area; and the iron ore terminal would be in the Haven, not necessarily in the Dock, which is perhaps a little obsolete. Many of us are hoping that the Haven will be used for the receipt of iron ore?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, in my answer to the first supplementary I tried to draw a distinction between the Haven and the Docks, but I took it that the noble Lord was referring to one of the propositions put up by the new Chairman of the Docks Company to the Secretary of State for Wales and to the Board of Trade.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, do Her Majesty's Government appreciate that British Railways' modernisation plans include the running of liner-trains, which would lower the cost of freighting ore from Milford Haven to the steelworks, and do Her Majesty's Government realise that, although very big bulk carriers may come into Milford Haven, they will in many cases need to be serviced by smaller vessels for which the docks are an essential ancillary?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, all aspects of this question have been gone into. It is not a question of liner-trains but of company trains, or "merry-go-round" trains almost on a continuous belt. But I will call the attention of the Secretary of State for Wales and my right honourable friend to what has been said in this House to-day.

AID TO TANZANIA
2.40 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government (a) with regard to the outstanding loans and advances of £7,327 million to Tanzania, of which £5,238,000 is reported as interest free, what arrangements exist to convert the latter into fixed-interest obligations, and (b) if services of all outstanding indebtedness were calculated at conventional interest rate, say 5 per cent., what relationship the resulting total would bear to the current income budget of Tanzania.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD WALSTON): My Lords, no arrangements exist by which interest-free loans may be converted into interest-bearing loans. An interest charge of 5 per cent. on the total of interest-free loans issued to Tanzania would cost a little under 1 per cent. of Tanzania's recurrent expenditure in the financial year 1965–66.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, with regard to the first part of the Answer, would the noble Lord not agree that it would seem that lenders must be circumspect in their behaviour towards those who borrow money from them? It would be appropriate that something should be done fairly soon to achieve a rapid conversion into interest-bearing loans. Also, would he be able to say, in regard to the point about which I have already given him notice, that since that Question was put down the situation of the borrower had changed? Could he give any indication to the lenders as to the position now of an independent Republic which had broken off relations with the United Kingdom with regard to other expenditure it might incur affecting loans from the United Kingdom?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, with regard to the first part of the noble Lord's question, of course Her Majesty's Government, as all lenders are, or so I hope, are circumspect with regard to the conditions of the borrower. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's
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question, I would first of all thank him for his courtesy in warning me in advance that he was going to raise this particular point. I would in the first place remind him that the object of our loans is to help developing countries and not specifically to influence their political attitudes or actions. But I would further say that this whole matter of loans to all countries in Africa at the present time is subject to very serious thought, and it is probable that my right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development will be making a statement, or at least coming to a conclusion, in the very near future.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, are we not getting into a completely Gilbertian situation when we go on giving loans and aid to a country which has broken off diplomatic relations with us? Has not the time come to be a little more realistic and to take a leaf out of the Americans' book, so that when a country kicks you in the teeth you withdraw aid?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, as I have already said, this matter is under review and no decision has been reached. But I would once more reiterate what I have already said, that the object of our loans is in order to help in the economic development of the countries to which we are lending money, and it is not a backstairs means of influencing their policies.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, arising out of that reply, can the Minister say whether or not all this loan money has yet been drawn?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, it has not all been drawn yet.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for his reply, has he not observed that he did not answer the question, which was: what is the position of the lender to a borrower who has broken off relations with this country and therefore must be in a different condition? Perhaps I should put it in this way. The status of the borrower has changed since I put down the Question on the Order Paper: can he make some comment on that?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I am sorry that I did not answer the question sufficiently specifically for the noble Lord. For the first part of my answer, I can

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only repeat what I have already said—namely, that the whole matter is under review at the present time. But, at the risk of wearying your Lordships, I will repeat the second part of my answer, which is that the object of these loans is primarily to help in the economic development of the countries to which we lend the money, and the economic circumstances of those countries have not changed in any way whatsoever.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord two questions. In the first place, he says that the money is for the benefit of the people, and not of the Government. But to whom is the money being lent? Is it not being lent to the Government, for them to spend as they think best? That seems to me to be the position. The second point is this. He said that the matter was under review. Will the Government make a Statement on this situation before the House rises? This is not a difficult question. It is a question whether we do lend the money, or partly lend it, or do not lend it. It is a perfectly simple question about which to come to a decision, and I think that before rising Parliament has a right to ask the Government to provide a reply.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, as the noble Marquess says, it is a perfectly simple question. I cannot promise that a decision will be reached before the House rises. But if a decision is come to—and I believe that it will be—then undoubtedly the House will be informed. With regard to the first part of the noble Marquess's question, the money is being lent to the Government as they represent the country in question. But it is not for them to spend as they like. It is lent for specific objects which have been settled by discussion and approval between the Ministry of Overseas Development and the Government of Tanzania, and to the best of my knowledge there has been no change whatsoever in those objects or in the method by which they are to be achieved.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, would the Minister take note that there is a considerable body of opinion in this House—and, I believe, outside—who would greatly regret the taxpayers
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of this country continuing to find funds for countries that have broken off diplomatic relations with this country?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, will the noble Lord. Lord Walston, realise that there is a great deal of interest on this side of the House. We are adjourning for, I think, over a month, and will he please represent to his right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary that we should like a Statement before the House rises, so that your Lordships can see what decisions the Government have come to?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I will certainly do that. I will also take note, as the noble Lord has asked me to do, if not of the "considerable body of opinion" in the country—because that is still unproved—at least of the considerable interest taken in the country, and of the considerable body of opinion on certain Benches opposite, with regard to this question.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, may I ask whether the rather astonishing figure of £7,000 million, referred to in the Question, is correct?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I think it should be £7·327 million—with a point and not a comma. May I at the same time call your Lordships' attention to an error for which I am responsible in my reply in a Written Answer to a Written Question of the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, on December 6, which has been corrected in the OFFICIAL REPORT? The error occurred in Schedule B of the Written Answer [col. 99]. It read:
"Tanzania (Tanganyika and Zambia)".
It should, of course, read:
"Tanzania (Tanganyika and Zanzibar)."
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I would thank the noble Lord for that reply. I was puzzled by the Answer and thought there must be something wrong. If I may revert to the present Question, without any political angle at all, I would ask, since this country is the lender and the borrowers having broken off diplomatic relations with us, is the noble Lord in a position to give an assurance that there will be no more advances in this direction until the situation has been cleared up?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, there will be no more advances until the decision has been taken as to whether or not there shall be more advances.

RECOGNITION OF DE FACTO GOVERNMENTS
2.50 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many countries there are outside the Commonwealth in which—

(a) the Government exists de facto and not de jure; and

(b) such Government is recognised by Her Majesty' Government.]

LORD WALSTON: My Lords, in the view of Her Majesty's Government, there are no such countries.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, would the noble Lord say what is the situation in regard to the Dominican Republic?
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, the Dominican Republic, so far as I am aware, has a Government which is both de jure and de facto.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, am Ito understand the noble Lord to say that there are no countries in the category specified in the Question with which the United Kingdom has diplomatic relations? There must he many countries which do not have de jure Governments but de facto Governments—countries like Iraq, which suddenly kill the whole of their Royal Family, and whose new Government the United Kingdom recognise before the blood is dry.

STATEMENTS
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the House may wish to know that at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on the Prime Minister's visit to America; and that my noble friend Lord Bowles will he making a Statement on the Report of the Committee on the Assessment of Disablement.

COMMONWEALTH SECRETARIAT BILL [H.L.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make provision with respect to the Commonwealth Secretariat, and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time
Moved. That the Bill he now read 1ª.—(Lord Beswick.)
On Question, Bill read 1ª, and to be printed.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
2.52 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the First Report from the Committee.
The Committee's Report was as follows:
1. ARRANGEMENT OF BUSINESS
The Committee considered Standing Orders 34 and 35 relating to the arrangement of Business and recommend no change in them. They recognise that in cases of doubt or dispute the ultimate choice as to the order in which Business shall be taken must lie with the House and recommend that in such cases a Business of the House Motion be put down to enable the House to make its decision.
2. STANDING ORDER 24
The Committee have considered Standing Order 24—
"Every Lord is to speak standing and uncovered, except by permission of the House,"
and recommend that women Peers who wish to wear a hat when speaking shall be excused from seeking the permission of the House to do so.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be agreed to, and I think that the House may like to have a few words of explanation and clarification about the two items contained in the Report. The first item is

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concerned with the arrangements of Business. Your Lordships will remember that Standing Order 34, which is referred to in this paragraph, provides that the House shall proceed with and debate the Orders of the Day in the order in which they stand on the Order Paper; while Standing Order 35 deals with the Order in which future Business is entered on the Order Paper. Standing Order 35 sets out various categories of business and the order in which they shall be set down. Within these categories the general principle is that of "first come, first served."
I have to report to your Lordships that at their meeting last week the Procedure Committee were informed of certain difficulties which had arisen in regard to the order of the two Motions on the Order Paper for Wednesday, January 26; namely, the Motion standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, and that in the name of the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk. Some difference of opinion was expressed in the Committee as to the best solution of this difficulty. The second sentence of this paragraph in the Report starting with the words "They recognise" represents the majority view of the Committee. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, is to move a Manuscript Amendment to delete this sentence.
As to the second item, which deals with ladies' hats, I hope that our recommendation—which I trust will give satisfaction to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry—will be acceptable to the House. We do not think that an Amendment to the Standing Order which would create a formal distinction between men and women Peers, when none exists at present, would be desirable. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Report be agreed to. —(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN rose to move, as an Amendment to the Motion "That the Report be agreed to", after "agreed to" to insert ", subject to the deletion of the second sentence in paragraph 1 (Arrangement of Business)". The noble Lord said: My Lords, the first paragraph of the Report (and as many of your Lordships will not have the Report in your hands, perhaps I had better read it) says:
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"They recognise that in cases of doubt or 34 and 35 relating to the arrangement of Business and recommend no change in them."
The Report continues:
"They recognise that in cases of doubt or dispute the ultimate choice as to the Order in which Business shall be taken must lie with the House and recommend that in such cases a Business of the House Motion be put down to enable the House to make its decision."
It is in consequence of that second sentence that your Lordships have on the Order Paper before you a special Motion, in the name of the Lord Privy Seal, on the Business of the House: that Standing Order 35 be dispensed with on the first Wednesday after the Recess in order to set aside the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, in favour of another Motion.
This procedure, so far as I am aware, is without any precedent in the House at all. It is perfectly true that such a Motion is put down at the end of every Session to enable the Government to finish off its legislative programme. But to invoke a procedure like that against a private Member, who is perfectly within his rights, is an unprecedented thing in this House, and I think it would be wrong if this House were to accept it. Nobody who knows me will think that I am making any attack on the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman. I was in a minority in that Committee (about which I will say something in a moment), and I hope that the noble Earl will allow me to say that I was lost in admiration at the skill with which he managed a very difficult Committee; and the finding which is before your Lordships was the finding of a considerable majority of that Committee.
It has long been the custom in your Lordships' House that a Peer can put down a Motion for debate in your Lordships' House. It used to be the case that on Mondays and on Wednesdays the Motions took precedence over Bills. That enabled your Lordships to bring matters before the House as a full House with full attendance and to get them considered on certain days of the week. Subsequently it was represented to your Lordships by the Procedure Committee, on the motion of the Whips, that this was far too much to give to Motions, and the Monday Business was changed, so that on Mondays Bills now take precedence over

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Motions and only the Wednesdays are left.
The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, had put down a Motion for the first Wednesday after the Recess, and as his Motion was the first of which the officials of the House received Notice, it took precedence of the other Motions. I should like your Lordships to allow me to go into the general question of Motions in a few moments. The point in the Committee was that the Whips had found the noble Lord very difficult to deal with and had lost patience, and had decided—
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD): My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, I am not sure how far it is in order to give what purports to be an intimate account of all that was said in this Committee. I do not accept it as an accurate account at all, but in order that we may be able to clear our minds as to what we are discussing I ought to make it plain that I shall not be moving my Motion to-day, because Lord Russell of Liverpool has indicated that he will withdraw his Motion for the 26th on an understanding which he has reached with me. Therefore I do not think we need become too much involved in the subject of that particular Motion, although I agree that the noble Lord is raising a general issue of considerable interest.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I would answer in this way. I am moving an Amendment to the Report of the Procedure Committee. The fact that the other Motion is down on the Order Paper has a connection with this; it is meant to lead up to it. I am perfectly entitled to say what went on in the Procedure Committee because every noble Lord in this House is entitled to attend the Committee. There is nothing "hole in the corner" about the Procedure Committee, and if I say what happens there it is open to anybody to say that I am wrong or to correct or amplify in any way what I say.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I venture to think, with much deference to those who have led the House in past years with much greater experience and distinction than I have, that the Procedure Committee is not held in public.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, would the noble Earl allow me to interrupt? Would the noble Earl mind speaking a little louder? These hearing aids do not work.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, the Procedure Committee is not held in public, and I do not think that the fact that any noble Lord can attend demonstrates the proposition of the noble Lord that one can repeat in public everything that is said in that Committee.
LORD SALTOUN: Very well, my Lords. I leave that point. As I pointed out, the power of your Lordships to have Motions debated has been considerably curtailed of recent years in deference to the Whips. The Whips have moved your Lordships and they have stated what is not a fact: that before putting down any Motion the Whips shall be consulted. That has never been the case as long as I have been in the House. We have the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, who has been here since 1928, and we have the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, who has been here since 1922, and if I am wrong they will no doubt contradict me.
Her Majesty's Government are toying, as I understand it, with the idea of appointing an Ombudsman, and it is perfectly true—and the Government must be as well aware of it as I am—that in any country which is so powerfully administered as our country is there must from time to time arise wrongs to individuals and wrongs to small groups of people who can get no redress under the system and who ought to be treated in some other way. As long as I can remember, your Lordships' House has always acted as a kind of Ombudsman, and if noble Lords who were interested have been able to do so they have put their Motions down on a Wednesday and have debated them. These debates do not generally take very long. The last one in which I was engaged took just an hour and five minutes. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, will remember it very well. It is always memorable to me, because I think it was the last time that my dear and very deeply lamented friend Lord Mathers took part in a debate in your Lordships' House.
The first debate which I ever attended in your Lordships' House—of course, I was not a Member of the House—was

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about 1909 or 1910, and it was on some such question. The whole time I have been in the House, it has always been possible for somebody who has been wronged, and who could interest a Peer, to bring his case before your Lordships, and when that happened one of three things happened: either the case was remedied, or it might be alleviated or nothing happened. But I have found by experience that when a man has been deeply wronged and suffers under a deep sense of wrong, it is some gratification to him to have his case stated and heard, even if he gets nothing.
As a rule these cases proceed by a Motion for Papers which is subsequently withdrawn. Your Lordships might have thought that in such a case nothing happened, but that is not quite true. Your Lordships may not know, but something very often does happen. I can give an example. Some of your Lordships will remember how indignant most of us were about the long delay in the payment of the Post-War Credits after the war. I think that many people will remember that, and the case was raised again and again in your Lordships' House. The Government's answer was never very satisfactory and that could not be avoided, because the Government did not dare give the true answer. The true answer was that the Treasury, in levying the taxes that had lead to the creation of Post-War Credits, had thought that the people had stood so much that they would not stand any more. But when they found that the people accepted even that gladly for the prosecution of the war, they felt sorry they had not made it an out-and-out tax, and they determined that people should get back their money as slowly and with as much difficulty as possible. That was the reason why no Government dared to give the actual facts.
In common with other Members of your Lordships' House, I produced hard cases which had been brought to my notice. I had no indication from the Government that they had been attended to, but I received letters of gratitude from the people whose cases I brought up, which indicated to me that, even though the Motion had been withdrawn and the whole debate seemed to be inoperative, yet one had done something which had caused hard cases to be looked into and
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remedied. Therefore, my Lords, anything which impaired that power of your Lordships to bring cases of this kind, if you are sufficiently interested, before this House would be a very great injury to the ordinary people of this country.
I shall leave that and will come to the particular case of the Committee which is before us. I shall not say what happened in the Committee, but I can tell your Lordships of a great many things which did not happen in the Committee and which will keep you in the picture. The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, is extremely anxious about a case which he is interested in bringing before your Lordships, and which he thinks has never been properly considered, so he managed to put his name down for a Motion for debate on the first Wednesday after the Recess. This is not so easy to do as it used to be because, once more in deference to the Whips, we have made a rule that one can only put down a Motion one month before it comes forward to be debated. So that limits one as there is a definite starting post. The noble Lord had to be up very early in the morning, but he managed to get in and to get that Motion down for debate.
Having done that, he was within his right, and if the Whips had approached him I have no doubt that he would have accommodated them and arranged to take another day, but that did not happen. I rather gather that the Whips took the line that the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, ought to approach them; but I really do not see the argument for that. As a matter of fact, I should never take that line myself, even if I was entitled to do so. If one wants to get something settled, the answer is for the parties to come together, and it does not matter who approaches whom. But I always dislike opposing the Whips because, if they will allow me to say so, I like them all so much that it is difficult to oppose them on occasions. But, as a matter of fact, I have never found Whips easy to deal with. If you have Business down for a Wednesday and they want it moved they always offer you a Thursday after other Business or something like that, and it is therefore difficult to get anything really useful out of them.
The most important point is that, unless you have a right, which your Lordships have enjoyed from time

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immemorial, to have Business taken in the order in which it is put down you will, never get anything out of the Whips. Most of us will generally come to an accommodation. I know that we have had many arguments in the past, but I have always been perfectly conscious that, if one had not an indefeasible right, one would not get anything at all. I know that in recent years a great deal more interest has been taken in the debates in your Lordships' House, and there are a great many people who have strong political feelings who want to put down Motions and have them discussed on a Wednesday. There are a great many things going on which interest people deeply; and, therefore, it has become the custom for the Whips to make a sort of friendly arrangement among themselves about the Business coming up on Wednesdays.
Nobody has any objection to that; but when it is taken so far that it is proposed that all the Business of your Lordships must be done through the Whips, and that the Back Benchers must no longer have any right, except with the consent of the Whips, to put down Motions for debate, then you open the door to a very great deal of maladministration. Because, my Lords, there are a great many things that Back-Bench Peers very often want to bring up and have discussed which the Government would very willingly keep concealed. That happens in the case of every Government. On the occasion I last brought up such a case, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, was the one who answered for the Government. Those matters ought to be brought up; and, if your Lordships do not insist on preserving this right, then I am very sorry to say that I think this House will lose one of its most important functions, and one in which the people at large take great interest. I have said that this particular proposal—hammering down the noble Lord who has got a position of advantage and wishes to use it—is quite unprecedented; and so it is. I hope your Lordships will support me in this, and that we shall not have a proposition of this kind put before us again.
Before sitting down and making my Motion, I should like to point out just one thing. If it is to be put, the Motion before the House—that the Business of the first Wednesday after the Recess should be altered so as to defer the Motion
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of the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool—affects the noble Lord himself, and if it were to be debated I think it would be perfectly within his right to lay before your Lordships all the reasons which move him to wish to be first on the Order Paper. In that case, your Lordships would have the privilege of hearing his case both this afternoon and then again on the first Wednesday after the Recess. So I am not at all sure about the efficacy of the proposal shortly to be made to your Lordships.
My Lords, if the succeeding Motion is not going to be moved, the only way in which your Lordships can support me and show your disapproval of this is by cutting out the second sentence of the Report of the Procedure Committee. The second sentence of the Report of the Procedure Committee, if it had come from any body less august, would be likely to be stigmatised as cheek, because it merely reminds your Lordships of a power which is inherent in you, which always must be inherent in you and which cannot be taken away from you. Therefore, for the Procedure Committee to remind your Lordships of that power, almost as if the Committee were conferring it upon you, is really a little unnecessary. By supporting me, your Lordships will not alter the recommendation of the Procedure Committee; you will not alter its meaning in any way at all; but you will indicate that this is not the way in which private Back Bench Peers ought to be treated. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After ("agreed to") insert (",subject to the deletion of the second sentence in paragraph 1 (Arrangement of Business)").—(Lord Saltoun.)
3.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, before making any observations on the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, perhaps I should say again that it will not be necessary for me to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper. That Motion would have placed the Duke of Norfolk's Motion for January 26 above the Motion standing in the name of Lord Russell of Liverpool; hut, as I explained just now in an intervention, the situation has changed as a result of a talk that I have had with Lord Russell of Liverpool. He has been good enough to say

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that he will postpone his Motion sine die, on the understanding that Mr. Mayhew, the Secretary for the Navy, will see the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, and his friends about the time that the debate would have taken place. Mr. Mayhew tells me that he will be happy to see Lord Russell of Liverpool and his friends, and that, in fact, he has always been ready to see Lord Russell of Liverpool—although I gather that there has been some slight misunderstanding on that point. There will, therefore, be no difficulty, from the point of view of the House, about taking the Duke of Norfolk's Motion as first Business on January 26.
In what follows, I wish, so far as possible, to avoid referring further to Lord Russell of Liverpool's Motion, or to the circumstances concerned with it. That places me in one difficulty: that there is some slight suggestion left by Lord Saltoun's speech that the Whips on both sides of the House have behaved unreasonably. I entirely repudiate that suggestion. However, I do not intend, unless I am forced so to do, to go into that matter further.
The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun has raised a somewhat wider issue, and one that is of general significance: the issue whether, so to speak, a private Member who gets his blow in first—or, as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, says, gets up early in the morning—and, ahead of everybody, puts a Motion down for a given Wednesday, can insist on having that Motion taken first, irrespective of the wishes of the House.
LORD SALTOUN: I beg the noble Earl's pardon, but he is quite wrong. I did not say, "irrespective of the wishes of the House": I said for the Leaders on both sides of the House to put down a Motion directed against him. If the House were to wish it spontaneously, so to speak, I should not have the smallest objection. It is calling on the House and exercising your Whip to command a majority against a Back-Bench Peer that arouses my anger—I beg your Lordships' pardon: not my anger, but my indignation.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: I do not think the noble Lord quite follows me. If this Motion of mine were to be put to the House, the House would have the means of deciding whether it wanted to have the Duke of Norfolk's Motion
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first or the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool. It would rest with the House. No one is taking anything away from the House. The Motion would be brought before the House in the same way as it was proposed to bring this one. I should just remind the House that Standing Order 38 prohibits the placing on the Order Paper of a notice of Business more than one month ahead, and that, in calculating that period, no account is to be taken of any time during which the House is in Recess.
The House will appreciate that our Standing Orders give great freedom to all Members of the House, and I should be very reluctant to see this position changed in any way. I suppose that if any one individual, apart from the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chairman of Committees, is supposed to look to the interests of the House as a whole, that individual is the Leader of the House at the time. I have a duty to the House as a whole. That does not even mean the great majority of the House: it means every Member of the House. So I certainly should be very slow to interfere with the rights of individuals.
Nevertheless, such freedom obviously requires a great deal of organisation if the House is to organise its business effectively. We cannot have complete anarchy here. For example, it is right and proper that the official Opposition should have full opportunities of raising great questions. The Liberal Party, also, are entitled to their opportunities; and so, of course, are the supporters of the Government of the day. And certainly the noble Lords who sit on the Cross-Benches, such as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, with their great wealth of knowledge and experience, must likewise have their opportunities. But this cannot all be left to a kind of smash-and-grab philosophy: there must be some organisation; and I think that most people would agree that the existing organisation works very well. On this question of putting down Motions, experience has shown that to have debates of real quality it is not enough just to put down a Motion, so that busy Peers who may have a contribution to make are informed in advance. These plans have to be laid—certainly in many cases—more than one month ahead.

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I do not propose to explain (there is no secret about it; every Member of your Lordships House has a rough idea of how the procedure works) exactly how all this is achieved. But I am confident that the House is satisfied that what has been done over a period of years has been in the interests of the House; and I repeat that I am not aware of any case in which a Peer who wanted to put a Motion before the House has ever been defrauded of that opportunity. It may well be that he cannot have a particular debate at a particular time on a particular day; but that is hardly, I suggest, one of the essential human freedoms. He is entitled to have his subject debated in the House of Lords, and, as I say, I cannot think of anybody who has failed to do so. In the past, when I was not one of the leaders, I found many opportunities of bringing subjects before the House; and I have never had any difficulty with the Whips.
I should have said—and I must pay this tribute, at least, to the usual channels—that irrespective of who happens to be the Government, the Whips labour hard without exaggerated remuneration; are always sensitive to the feelings of the House; and are very conscious that in the end it must be the will of the House that prevails. I do not believe that the Report of the Procedure Committee in any way reduces the rights of Members. If it did, I should not stand to support it; and I am sure that that would be true of other Members also. The Report reaffirms that the House controls its own Business. I have unshaken confidence in the present arrangements, and I hope that the House will share that confidence with the Procedure Committee.
3.22 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I had not seen either the Motion or the Amendment before I came into the House; but I should like to suggest some reasons why we should support the noble Earl the Leader of the House and why I think that it is not essential for my noble friend Lord Saltoun, who is raising this matter, to pursue it for the purposes he has in mind. There are two Motions on the Order Paper: the Motion for the consideration of the First Report of the Committee and the further Motion which we now hear is not, in fact, to be moved. The purpose of the argument of my noble
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friend Lord Saltoun was to negative the merits of the Motion that is not going to be moved. I can see that the matters he put forward might have carried great weight with many people, had that Motion come forward; but I cannot see that it is necessary to object to the Report of the Procedure Committee.
I should have been, I think, at least as eager to object to that Report if it had claimed some privileges for Her Majesty's Government or had mentioned the Whips. But I read the Report from beginning to end, and I found no mention of Her Majesty's Government and no mention of the Whips. It says simply that, in the event of cases of doubt or dispute arising, the House shall have control over the matter; and it lays down how the House is to be given Notice that the subject is going to be raised. That seems to me to be eminently sensible.
It seems to me that the only objection we could have to the Report of the Procedure Committee would arise if, on reading Standing Orders 34 and 35, we thought it was inconceivable that any question should ever arise on them; or that there should ever be any dispute. Most lawyers, I think, will agree with me that it is very difficult to take two pages or so of any Standing Orders and say that it is impossible that any question will ever arise about them. It seems to me that a question may arise about them, and this Report of the Procedure Committee says simply that in such event the House shall have complete control. I have given, with reasonable brevity I hope, the reasons why I think we can all be quite happy with this Report of the Procedure Committee and can support the noble Earl the Leader of the House in what he has said.
3.25 p.m.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, there are two reasons why I hope your Lordships will allow me to intervene in this debate, apart from the fact that my name has been mentioned a number of times during the last few minutes. Your Lordships may wonder, because of the statement which the noble Earl the Leader of the House has made why the arrangement we have now come to could not have been reached earlier. I hope to explain why that did not happen. Secondly, the impression may have

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been given, from what the noble Earl the Leader of the House and the Lord Chairman of Committees said at the begginning, that difficulties have arisen over my Motion; and that perhaps I am the nigger in the woodpile. There is almost another reason, a third reason, which has cropped up since then—because I rather gather that the noble Earl the Leader of the House was even suggesting that I was an anarchist. That is something that I do not think any noble Lord would believe.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I would withdraw that suggestion. It was not meant to imply that the noble Lord was an anarchist.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I was not saying that seriously. I thought that the noble Earl would have the sense of humour to see that; obviously he had not.
With regard to the question of difficulty, I hope your Lordships will allow me to say briefly how this came about. As you know, there was a Motion on the Swabey case a long time ago moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. After a long space of time I put down a Motion on July 21. It was put down under the Standing Orders, as first Motion. That was altered, without my knowledge, to the second Motion. Then I was informed that it was the second Motion; and when I asked why, I was told: "We did not think that you would mind". But, in fact, I did mind. In my view, it was because of the very late hour that Motion was heard that it was defeated.
After that, against the advice of a great number of friends and of Members of your Lordships' House—and I am sure the noble Marquess will not mind my saying that he thought it wrong—I decided to put the Motion down for a second time.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: A third time.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: I put it down for December 8. On that occasion I was approached by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd (who I see has just come back into the Chamber), who asked me whether I would alter it to another day. So I altered it to December 9. I
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made no fuss about that, no objection. Unfortunately, when the debate was due to be heard—the Motion was due to be raised on the 9th—I happened to be taken ill with bronchitis. That was not my fault: it was an act of God. At all events, I was not able to be here.
I then decided that the Motion ought to be put down for another day. I approached the Table, and was told it could go down as the first Motion on the first Wednesday after the Recess. I put it down for then, as, according to Standing Orders, I was entitled to do. I did not know of any other Motion. Incidentally, when I suddenly saw the Motion on Business which we hear is not now going to be moved by the Leader of the House, I got in touch with the noble Duke the Duke of Norfolk, whose Motion on the Territorial Army was also down for the same day. He knew nothing about this whatsoever.
I appreciate as well as any noble Lord the importance of the Motion on the Territorial Army. I was a member of the Territorial Army at the beginning of the First World War, before some of your Lordships were born, and I served in it during that war. I think it is a very important thing. In my view the irresponsible policy of the Government about it is very reprehensible; and I should have supported the noble Duke's Motion. He did not mind; but, of course, if he had asked me, or if one of the Whips had approached me, I would have been amenable; but on this other occasion no one has approached me to alter that Motion. I should like your Lordships to know this. What you may think of it, I do not know. I know what I think.
3.30 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, may I, as an ex-Leader of the House, support the noble Earl the Leader of the House and revert for a moment to the terms of the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun? I am sorry that in this case I have to oppose the noble Lord because there are few Members of your Lordships' House who know more about its procedure than he does. I am certainly not adverse to a little pre-Christmas "blood sport" of "Whip hunting". Whips are necessary, but usually very tiresome. I should

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certainly be unwilling to agree to anything which appears to interfere with the rights of every Member of this House, as I am sure that your Lordships would be, and certainly I should be unwilling to lay down any more rules for your Lordships' House than are absolutely necessary. I think that one of the great advantages of this House is that there are so few Rules and that we can, at short notice, discuss matters of great importance, which it is not possible to do in another place where there are very much stricter Rules of Procedure and Order.
Unless some sort of arrangement such as that recommended by the Procedure Committee is agreed, we in your Lordships' House may often find ourselves in very great difficulty. If this became the usual practice—I am not suggesting that the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, would do it, or that he meant to do it on this occasion—there might well be an undignified scramble at the exact moment when it was permissible to put down a Motion for a month ahead. Noble Lords might try to pre-empt that day. Two situations might arise. First, there might be a very large number of Motions put down which were not of the greatest possible interest to the greatest number of people in your Lordships' House. Secondly, Motions which would be of great interest and possibly of greater importance to discuss would not be discussed because there would be several Motions in front of them on the Order Paper. There must be some form of discipline, as indeed there always has been. I do not think we can proceed upon the basis of "first come, first served ".
I do not think that any Member of your Lordships' House has ever found that if he wished to raise a matter the Whips of one Party or another, or the House as a whole, has not given him the opportunity to do so. I have never heard of any occasion when any noble Lord found that he could not raise a matter upon which he felt strongly. There can be no suggestion that there would be no time in this House for those who wished to raise matters of hardship such as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, has often raised. I should have thought that what the Procedure Committee suggested was very reasonable and it would be much better, as the Procedure Committee
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suggests, if we left the House as a whole to decide.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I, shortly, support the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in his support of the Leader of the House? I would also support and confirm what he says about the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, whose great experience and wisdom we so very much admire. But the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, gave me the impression—I may be wrong—that he thought that in some way the Government, or the Government Whips, were directing your Lordships on how business should be taken. Surely the noble Lord is mistaken in that. All the Government Whips are doing is putting before your Lordships' House a question for your Lordships to decide. I am sure that even the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, does not think that we are so craven that we accept everything which is said by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd—much as we like him—because he is a Government Whip.
3.36 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, perhaps I may say one word, as a former Leader of the House. I entirely agree with the decision of the Procedure Committee that the matter should be left finally to the House. Clearly that is the right procedure. It is in accordance with all our traditions. I would, however, say this with respect to the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool. I think that the noble Lord has been unlucky. I was not associated with him on this occasion, but I have been on earlier occasions, and it always seemed to me that the noble Lord came in at the end of the list on about the last clay before a Recess, or something of that kind. I remember one occasion when the noble Lord had to postpone his Motion altogether because there were so few people who would have been left in the House that the subject was not likely to receive proper consideration.
Therefore one's feeling, in a House where the rights of individual Peers are so jealously guarded, is that on every occasion of this kind, if there is an unhappy difference of opinion, the Whips should do their utmost to persuade the Peer in question to agree to what they believe to be the general will of the

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House. I am sure that in the great majority of cases he would be quite ready to accept that. In a case where the disagreement continued, I do not think it ought to be resolved by a decision of the Whips, or the Leader of the House. I am sure that it has not been on this occasion; it should be referred back to the House as a whole. That I believe is the only satisfactory method for a House with our traditions.
I would say only one thing more. I understand that, happily, in this case an agreement has been reached which is satisfactory both to the Leader of the House and to the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool. If, however, the present move which is being made for an interview with the First Lord of the Admiralty fails to produce results, and the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, finds it necessary to raise the matter again, as I say I am not concerned on this occasion but, speaking as a Member of the House, I hope he will be given a fair chance of having a good hearing.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I should like to say one thing. Although I do not wish to enter into any argument with the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, I cannot accept entirely his statement about the proceedings which he may have had with the usual channels. The point I think I should stress is that the "usual channels" is not the Government Chief Whip. The usual channels includes the Chief Whip of the Opposition and the Chief Whip of the Liberal Party. None of them makes any decision of this kind without consultation with the others. I suggest—and I think that it has been recognised this afternoon—that this rather loose method of conversation, and of taking into account the opinion of Members on the Cross-Benches, gives us an opportunity to understand what is in the interests of the House.
LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, says that he does not agree with the version I have given. Will he please say what it is that I have said with which he does not agree? I have stated only what in my opinion are facts.
3.37 p.m.
LORD STRANG: My Lords, as a member of the Committee on Procedure, I rise to support the Motion. It is of course
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right that the House should remain the master of its proceedings. It is right, therefore, that on proper occasions the operation of Standing Orders should be either suspended or dispensed with. That is often done in order to enable, for example, more than one stage of a Bill to be taken on one day. It is also right, I think, that this should be done, on occasions, in the interests of the smooth and fruitful conduct of the Business of this House. It is proper that the rights of private Members should be jealously protected, and this the House will always be willing and anxious to do. But there are occasions when, in the general interest of the conduct of Business, those rights should be overridden; but only with the formal consent of the House, if the House so decides. That is what the second sentence of paragraph 1 of the Report is designed to confirm.
As the noble Earl the Leader of the House has said, this is particularly so in the matter of the organisation of our Wednesday debates. Those debates are one of the characteristic and most valuable features of the proceedings in your Lordships' House. They are occasions when the three political Parties and their Members, and the Members on the Cross-Benches, can raise questions of great national moment, and can secure that these may be comprehensively debated in the light of the vast knowledge and experience which your Lordships can deploy. But for this to be possible, as has been said, such debates sometimes need to be organised well in advance, in the secure knowledge that the date arranged for them will be fully available.
I think that the Leader of the House is right in saying that in the past the most advantageous arrangement of the Business of the House has been secured, through the usual channels, with due recognition of the need to satisfy the legitimate desires of individual Peers to bring matters before your Lordships for debate. For these reasons, I wish to support the Motion before the House. I speak personally only. We on these Cross-Benches are not a political Party; we are independent individuals; and therefore I speak for myself alone.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I have listened to everything that has been said

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and I should like to make a few observations. First of all, this Motion for this purpose is without precedent in the annals of your Lordships' House. Even if we went back several centuries, I do not think that we should find such a Motion invoked against an individual Member of your Lordships' House. If nobody had taken the trouble to put your Lordships on guard about this, it would have been a great misfortune.
In the second place, I should like to say that it has not always been the case that a Peer, who has put his Motion down timeously and is in right, will always get fair treatment. If he is a weak character, the place of his Motion might be moved to an occasion which is of no possible value to him. In the old days in Scotland, where the people were very free in their love affairs and ministers exerted a very strict standard of virtue, a minister would get hold of a girl who was in trouble to ask her who was the father of her baby. She would look around her acquaintances for the weakest man she could find, because he would be more likely to succumb to the pressure exercised by the minister. Some of your Lordships are rather in that case. They can be forced into a position where they would give up their proper places.
Going back in my own experience, I remember making a promise to a group of trade union and Socialist workers in Germany that I would lay before your Lordships' House what I had actually seen in Germany. I got a Wednesday for my Motion. But your Lordships have no idea of the amount of trouble I had—it was shifted from one Wednesday to another. Luckily, I insisted on and got a Wednesday—November 6, 1946. I would point out to your Lordships that if the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, had not been in the right he would not have got where he has got now. If he had not been on really sound ground and properly entitled to his position, I do not believe that he would have got where he has got this afternoon. I would add that this is an important matter for your Lordships' House, because when there is a case of this kind to be brought before the House it should be brought before a full House. That is what gives it its value—and that is what makes the position of the noble Lord's Motion on the Order Paper of material importance
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to the unfortunate subject of Her Majesty who is suffering a wrong outside this House.
That is all that I have to say in reply to what has been said. I do not think that it is quite accurate to state that one can always make arrangements. Very often a noble Lord cannot make arrangements. But I have made my point. I have put your Lordships on their guard, and I have also pointed out what I think is the case—that such a Motion is liable to defeat itself because, if the noble Lord was present when the Motion was moved, the whole of his case is the reason why your Lordships should not assent to the Motion—so that he has the opportunity of debating it, even if your Lordships are going to put his actual Motion back on the Order Paper to a later day. Having said that, I do not think that the sentiments I wish to delete from the Report of the Procedure Committee is material one way or the other. Therefore, with your Lordships' consent, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RHODESIA: OIL SHIPMENTS EMBARGO
3.45 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like now to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is making in another place. These are the words of the Prime Minister:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement about the latest developments in relation to Rhodesia and Zambia, and in particular the imposition of an embargo on oil shipments to Rhodesia.
"As I have repeatedly stated in the House, Her Majesty's Government were not willing to take action unilaterally on oil supplies; our position was that an oil embargo must be multilateral and likely to be effective. In addition I referred to our very special concern for the safeguarding of oil supplies to Zambia.
"Discussions on both points were in fact being actively pursued, and

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agreement with the United States Government was well advanced before I left for Washington last week. In my first talk with the President on Thursday afternoon we were able to set the seal on these arrangements, and as the House knows a mission headed by my honourable friend the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations was discussing the organisation of emergency oil supply arrangements with the Government of Zambia.
"When we were clear on both points, the embargo and the airlift, that is by Friday afternoon, it became possible to make the Orders in Council, prohibiting British subjects from supplying oil to Rhodesia and prohibiting the import of oil by Rhodesia. The United States Government welcomes and supports our decision; fully recognises the authority of Her Majesty's Government in this matter and is advising all United States citizens and enterprises to comply with the terms of the Order in Council. We have also taken diplomatic action to seek the co-operation of the other main oil exporting countries.
"I should add that I have heard to-day that the Governments of France and of Italy are co-operating fully in the arrangements to stop the flow of oil.
"Simultaneously, the Minister of State's mission has reached agreement on detailed arrangements to provide Zambia with alternative supplies of oil and on equitable arrangements for the financing of the agreed contingency measures. These consist primarily of an airlift of oil supplies to Zambia—and we have been assured of all appropriate support from the United States to make it effective—with the result that, when the illegal régime in Rhodesia took the expected step of refusing to maintain oil supplies to Zambia, the first British aircraft carrying oil supplies to Zambia was able to fly in yesterday, Sunday, to Lusaka. The airlift will build up rapidly in the next few weeks, but its success will depend on our receiving full co-operation both from Zambia's neighbouring African states and from other countries who are in a position to help with the
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transport of essential supplies to Zambia. It was for this reason that I was particularly glad to hear from the Prime Minister of Canada during my visit to Ottawa yesterday that the Canadian Government will be considering very urgently how far they can supply aircraft to reinforce the British and American effort.
"Sir, I repeat these measures are directed to one purpose only, the return of Rhodesia to constitutional rule, and are essential to that end. They will mean great inconvenience and hardship, but they are essential if we are to get the quick solution which is needed to avoid much greater dislocation and hardship, and if we are to avoid, too, the immeasurable dangers of outside intervention, whatever form they might take—dangers which I was able to sense and assess as a result of continuing exchanges with Commonwealth and other African countries, and as a result of the almost irresistible pressures which are building up for still graver and more far-reaching measures in the United Nations."
That concludes the Statement by the Prime Minister.
3.50 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for repeating that very grave Statement. May I ask him three questions? The Prime Minister has constantly said that the test of oil sanctions is their effectiveness. Can he give us an estimate of how effective these oil sanctions will be and of how quickly he thinks they will work? Secondly, are the Government satisfied that oil supplies to Zambia can be maintained and guaranteed? Thirdly, the Prime Minister is reported on the tape as having said that if certain other countries do not cooperate in the oil embargo further measures will have to be taken. May I ask the noble Earl exactly what that phrase means, and what it implies? Does this mean that the Prime Minister is contemplating a blockade of Beira or South Africa?
LORD REA: My Lords, before the noble Earl answers those questions, I should like to put this question to him. The Prime Minister says that these measures are directed, as we all know, to one

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purpose only; namely, the return of Rhodesia to constitutional rule. Could the noble Earl say, or could he ask his right honourable friend to make clear, again what exactly are the terms? Are they the original five points, or any further points, or any fewer points? In any case, should they not be repeated often, so that they reach the ears of loyal Rhodesians?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for receiving this grave Statement in that way. Perhaps I may deal first with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rea. I do not think that to-day the Prime Minister will be adding anything further to what he said on the subject of a basis for return to constitutional rule. He spoke at considerable length last Friday week in another place, and I do not think he will be adding anything further to-day on that aspect. I agree with the noble Lord that this point of view needs to be continually re-emphasised, and no doubt it will be developed as time goes on.
May I now deal with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington? He asked me whether I feel that these measures will be effective. I am myself sure that they will be ultimately effective, but I should not like to put an estimate on the time it will take. I notice that the Daily Mail to-day—and the Daily Mail cannot be accused of being particularly favourable to the Government—seems satisfied that this is the kind of measure that will be effective.
As regards the supply of oil to Zambia, the noble Lord asked me whether I am satisfied that it will be possible to supply Zambia. I am certainly hopeful that it will be possible to supply Zambia adequately; but how great the cost will be is something that one would not like to estimate at this time.
Finally, the noble Lord asked me a question relative to something which I gather has just appeared on the tape about possible future steps. I cannot indicate any future steps to-day. I should not like to give the impression that the Government reach a certain point, and do not look beyond, but I cannot begin to-day to indicate future measures.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, perhaps I might ask one further question.
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I do not think the last answer given by the noble Earl is very satisfactory. Presumably, the noble Earl is in the confidence of the Prime Minister, and he is in the Cabinet. Surely he must know what the Prime Minister means by this sort of statement; and, presumably, the Prime Minister would not have said it unless he wanted it to be fairly clearly known what he meant. All I am asking is what it means.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I hope that I enjoy a reasonable measure of the Prime Minister's confidence. The noble Lord will realise that I have not had much opportunity of speaking to the Prime Minister, though I have seen him this morning and I know something of what is in his mind. But if he does not wish to say any more about any contingency planning going on, then it would hardly be for me to go further than he wishes me to go.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister has repeatedly said that he is opposed to the use of force. The use of force may involve the use of a blockade. Cannot the noble Earl say that a blockade is still excluded? I would ask him if he would re-emphasise that statement at the present time, in view of what has appeared on the tape. May I also ask one further question? Is the noble Earl aware that on November 23 the Prime Minister said, in dealing with the oil embargo, that he would
"need a lot of satisfying on the technical and economic consequences of this embargo, if this is applicable and effective."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. Commons, Vol. 721 (No. 673), col. 253. 23 /11 /65]—
and then he was interrupted. The Statement we have just heard (and we are grateful to the noble Earl for reading it) does not deal at all with the technical and economic consequences of the embargo. Presumably, the Prime Minister is satisfied about them. May we have some time soon a further statement, or indeed a White Paper, giving the Government's estimate of the economic consequences, so that we also might perhaps be satisfied, as he appears to have been?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I will certainly take note of anything suggested by the noble and learned Viscount. However, I think he is testing

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me rather high if he expects me to comment impromptu on something which has just appeared on the tape. One cannot come to this House equipped to deal with something which has just appeared on the tape; and, quite frankly, I think it would be astonishing if the Prime Minister wished me, or if the House wished me, to add to this Statement something about future steps. But I will repeat, clearly and definitely, that the Government have no intention of using force in any way. I have already given that pledge several times in this House, and will give it again.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, would the noble Earl the Leader of the House answer one question, dealing with something not on the tape, but with the Prime Minister's visit to Washington? The noble Earl emphasised the co-operation of the United States in this, and as they are the largest oil supplier, that must be of enormous importance. But is it or is it not a fact (this is a point raised by my noble friend Lord Coleraine in an earlier discussion) that without special legislation the President of the United States has no power to order any United States individual or oil company not to trade in oil?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I think that that may well be so. I looked into the point when it was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine, and although his version of history, as it happens, did not entirely harmonise with the information I was given, I think that is broadly the position. But the United States are clearly bringing strong influence to bear on the oil companies.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I do not want to embarrass the noble Earl about tape reports of what the Prime Minister has said, because I realise that the Prime Minister has only just returned from Canada and the noble Earl has not had much opportunity of having a conversation with him. But it is really unsatisfactory if the Prime Minister says something in Washington (I am not sure where it was said) which is then reported on the tape, and it goes much further than what he is prepared to say to the House. It leaves the House in a difficult situation. I hope the noble Earl realises this.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am afraid I did not quite follow the noble Lord's account of what was said on the tape. As I understood it, the Prime Minister said that if these measures were not sufficient, then other measures would come under consideration.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, what the Prime Minister said (I am open to correction) was that if certain other countries do not co-operate in the oil embargo, further methods will have to be taken. I asked the noble Earl: what other measures; and what does the Prime Minister mean? The noble Earl says that he has not had much opportunity of speaking to the Prime Minister, and I appreciate that. But all I am saying to him is that it is an unsatisfactory situation when the Prime Minister goes much further in the United States, or Canada, or wherever it was, than he is prepared to go in the House.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I gather that the Prime Minister did not make these remarks in Canada or America. I gather that he has just made them.
LORD CARRINGTON: That makes it that much worse, if the Prime Minister is prepared to state something outside this House and is not prepared to tell us inside.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I think the noble Lord, who is fairness itself, is making a great deal of something which hardly seems to be in front of us. I gather that the noble Lord has seen something on the tape which I suppose relates to something the Prime Minister said a few minutes ago.
LORD CARRINGTON: No.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Then I wonder why it is on the tape now. Surely this is getting rather confused. The Prime Minister has made certain observations, which were fully reported in the papers, about what would occur if there was what he called a leakage and seepage. That is not something which has just appeared on the tape. It is in his statement. He has made it plain what he would have to do in the event of leakage and seepage. Frankly, there is nothing more that I can add this afternoon.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I want to get away from this Statement. I want to get one thing clear, because I think it is important that it should be made clear, and that is the question whether or not a blockade is excluded. I would ask the noble Earl—perhaps he cannot do it to-day—to say whether or not it is contemplated that, in certain circumstances, a blockade will be imposed, because in considering these oil sanctions it is very material to know what is in mind, if anything, with regard to that. If that has been considered, and the possibility of it is excluded, then it is important that that should be known, too.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot proceed on a series of guaranteed exclusions. I understand that the Prime Minister himself, when this question was raised—and, if I may say so, I do not think we are getting into a very satisfactory relationship with another place if we have to comment on reported statements that have been made elsewhere while I am actually on my feet; I cannot think that that is the best way of doing business, and that is what we are dealing with now—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: May I finish?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: It was made in Washington, not in another place.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: May I finish? I think we are getting into rather an unsatisfactory condition at the moment, whether or not through my fault. At any rate, I can only inform the noble Viscount that I believe the Prime Minister has described that class of question—the one the noble Viscount has put—as hypothetical, and I cannot improve on that language this afternoon.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of us will agree that the immensely important questions raised by oil sanctions cannot conceivably be debated by question and answer this afternoon? I think the noble Earl referred in his original Statement to an Order in Council that has already been made. If that is an Order under
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the recent Act, will he confirm that that Order will require an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses; and can he say when it will come before either House for consideration?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, it will in fact be brought before both Houses for Affirmative confirmation, but the question of when it will be brought is under consideration in both Houses through the usual channels.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, the Minister, on another point in his Statement, spoke about full American co-operation. Can he say that that does not include the use of American aircraft or American air crews for the airlift?—because that would be bringing in a third party.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I cannot give any guarantees as to the form that American co-operation will ultimately take. I cannot exclude anything of that kind in the future.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, the noble Earl has repeated a pledge which he gave to this House the other day that force would not be used in any offensive way and which is at variance with what the Prime Minister said in another place. If I may say so, this seems to me to be more double talk. Could he explain what he means by using force inoffensively?
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am criticised by quite a number of noble Lords because I allow these discussions to go on rather longer than we should without suggesting that we draw to a close. I cannot think that that particular discussion arises this afternoon.

DEPUTY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Lord Grenfell and the Baroness Wootton of Abinger be added to the panel of Lords appointed to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session.—(The Earl of Longford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MEAT INDUSTRY (SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH LEVY) (REVOCATION) ORDER 1966
4.4 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): My Lords, I beg to move that the Meat Industry (Scientific Research Levy) (Revocation) Order 1966, be approved. I must begin by making it clear that this Order does not represent a change of policy on the collection of funds for meat research; the idea of a contribution from the industry for research remains basic. All that is intended is to discontinue what has proved an unsuitable method of collecting that contribution. The Order which it is proposed to repeal came into force in April, 1963. It linked the collection of the levy to the Fatstock Guarantee Scheme; a small payment was added to the buyer's bill, and double the amount was collected from the seller out of the guarantee payment.
In the conditions of 1963 this method of collection worked fairly well, because there was then a provisional rate of guarantee announced in advance and very seldom altered. This advance announcement allowed the collection of the levy to be suspended in weeks when the provisional rate was nil. A change was, however, made in the guarantee arrangements in the Annual Review of 1964. Now the guarantee payment is calculated retrospectively by reference to the average of the actual market prices in the week in question. The system also includes provision for an end-of-year payment if the guarantee for the year had not been met.
It was thought that this might have provided a means of collecting the producer's share of the levy due for weeks in which there had been no guarantee payment, but in fact, because of a very large increase in market prices, no end-of-year payment was due at the end of the fatstock year, 1964–65. As collections from buyers had had to continue, since it was not possible to tell at the beginning of a week whether there was to be a guarantee payment or not, this meant that money collected from buyers remained in the hands of sellers and did not reach the Agricultural Research Council for use on research.
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After further experience of this unsatisfactory system in the course of the current year, we are convinced that the Order cannot be made to work efficiently and equitably, and that the proper course is to repeal the Order and to turn to a different method of collecting the levy. We have made provision in the Agriculture Bill which is under consideration in another place, so that charges may be imposed or payments made by the Meat and Livestock Commission in respect of meat research by the Agricultural Research Council. This will, of course, mean that for a short time no money will be collected from the industry for meat research, but the total sum collected will not be altered, and we shall end up with a much better method of collection.
It would clearly be right to take some appropriate action about the money for the levy which was wrongly collected from buyers last year and this year in weeks in which it turned out that, no guarantee was payable. The sum involved looks like being a little under £25,000. Such a sum clearly ought to be devoted to meat research, and we propose that, as a final settlement of this matter, a sum equivalent to the final sum wrongly collected from buyers should be paid out of public funds to the Agricultural Research Council to be devoted to meat research. In this way, the project for which the money was collected will receive the benefit and the total obligation of the industry will be reduced by the amount it has contributed. I ought perhaps to add that a meeting was held with the main interests concerned, at which it was agreed that the action we are proposing to take was a reasonable way of dealing with the situation. Written proposals to repeal the Order were also circulated, and no adverse comments have been received.
I think I should mention two other points. First, the provisions of the Agriculture Bill will apply only to Great Britain. Different action will be required in Northern Ireland, and I understand that the Minister of Agriculture in Northern Ireland will announce what he proposes as soon as possible. Secondly, the present Order applies, as far as Great Britain is concerned, only to cattle and sheep. The Pig Industry Development Authority have made a voluntary undertaking to contribute to the Agricultural

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Research Council an annual sum for meat research equivalent to that which would have been produced had pigs been subject to the levy. My right honourable friends the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for Scotland propose to release the Pig Industry Development Authority from this undertaking if and when the draft Order now before the House is made. The new arrangements in the Agriculture Bill will, of course, cover pigs as well as cattle and sheep.
I think I may confidently commend this repealing Order to your Lordships. Because the guarantee system has been changed, the system of collecting the levy, which when it was originally worked out seemed simple and practical, is no longer so and can no longer be operated without great difficulties and inequities. A new scheme of collection is clearly required and, as I have said, new legislation is before Parliament which will permit a more satisfactory scheme to be prepared, based on a thorough study of all the problems involved.
Moved, That the Draft Meat Industry (Scientific Research Levy) (Revocation) Order 1966, laid before the House on December 1, be approved.—(Lord Champion.)
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Champion for having explained this Order in such detail because it is, of course, a complicated one. I think the main conclusion to be drawn from this is that the principle of collecting money for meat research has not been altered; it is merely the method by which it is to be collected which has been altered, and that is really what this Order deals with. It is not very frequently that one witnesses the spectacle of the Minister coming down to the House and saying, "The scheme that my Department has worked out has been proved to work out incorrectly and has not been satisfactory, and therefore we present a new one which we hope will be more successful." I do not say that in any carping way, because I think it is a gratifying experience to be told that Her Majesty's Government, of whichever Party it is composed, can occasionally make mistakes in the drafting of Orders and Bills and are prepared to come down with a fresh one when it is
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discovered that the existing scheme does not work. I sincerely hope the new scheme will work successfully.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, as one who has been engaged in the meat industry for many years I wonder if I might lend my modest support to the Order. I feel there is a real principle involved here. As the noble Lord has just pointed out, I think the new system will be a great improvement on the other, but the principle I have in mind is that when something is done for the benefit of the community as a whole then it should be the community which bears the cost. This has applied in the past in so far as various sections of the trade have had to pay their levy towards research. In the ultimate that research is not just for their benefit; it is for the benefit of the community as a whole.
If I might go farther, I would point out that in the Bill which dealt with meat inspection the payment of levies for inspection fell upon the trade itself. Inspection is in the interests of the community, to ensure that they do not get diseased meat, and I have always believed that the right principle was that the community and not the trade should bear the cost. I feel that this Order is to some extent in line with that; and if instead of its being in the form of levy which is now imposed it is going to be a payment through the new Commission, which is envisaged in the present Bill going through another place, then that indeed will be a great improvement on the present position. Therefore, while it may be only half way to the principle that I have in mind, I feel that in the end it will at least look much more reasonable and much more fair than the system which was, I think, brought in by the Conservative Government—in which case it is probably the fact that a Labour Government are putting right what a Conservative Government did wrongly.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, my noble friend discussed the principle involved, and it is true that there will be alterations in the Agriculture Bill from the method of collection which was decided in 1963, but I rather think he will again have to put his point when the Agriculture Bill comes before this House if he wants to maintain the

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principle that the public and not the industry must pay. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, said he was glad that a Minister had come to the House and admitted that a scheme which had been prepared by a Department had not worked out very well. Of course the simple fact is that the scheme was prepared by the 1963 Government, which certainly was not ours. It is a scheme which would have worked admirably if the Ministry in 1964, which was the noble Earl's Ministry, had not put into effect a new system of guarantee payments without considering the side effects. It was one of the side effects of that scheme that the scheme of 1963 was rendered unworkable by a decision taken following the Annual Price Review of 1964. I do not make a great point of this, but it is just one of those things which can happen when great changes are made. Alterations have to be made subsequently to put right what, in this case, was purely a side effect. I hope that your Lordships will now agree to this Order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ASSESSMENT OF DISABLEMENT
4.17 p.m.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in another place. Miss Margaret Herbison said:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the report of the Committee on the Assessment of Disablement. The Report is being published to-day as a Command Paper and copies will be available presently in the Vote Office.
"Following an all-Party Motion my predecessor appointed in October, 1964, an independent Committee under the chairmanship of Lord McCorquodale of Newton. The Committee were asked to consider whether the Schedules of certain specified injuries under the war pensions and industrial injuries schemes required alteration, and whether there was a case for any special provision in respect of amputation as such, either generally or in relation to advancing age.
"On behalf of the Government I wish to thank Lord McCorquodale and his colleagues very warmly for their detailed and expert examination, which has resulted in a most valuable Report.
"I am glad to be able to tell the House that the Committee firmly endorse the general structure of compensation under both schemes. They have recommended only two changes in the Schedules. First, that very severe amputations which involve taking away not only an arm or a leg but part of the shoulder or buttock as well, should be specifically included at the 100 per cent. level, at which such amputations already receive unscheduled assessments. Secondly, that the present mid-thigh assessment point for a leg amputation should be replaced by one at the knee, with a consequent increase from 60 to 70 per cent. in the scheduled assessment for amputation above the knee up to mid-thigh. The Committee felt that the Schedules should reflect the importance now attached to the knee joint in the fitting and functioning of an artificial limb by rounding up the assessment of those who have lost their knee and not by reducing the assessment of those who have kept it; but they emphasised that their recommendation does not imply any disturbance in the general relativities of compensation.
"I have decided to accept both these recommendations. The best estimate I can make is that getting on for 4,000 war pensioners and perhaps 500 industrial disablement pensioners will receive higher assessments.
"On the second part of their terms of reference the Committee found no evidence to show that amputation in itself constituted a greater relative burden or handicap than other forms of disablement assessed at the same levels for the purpose of the basic disablement pension, and no grounds for any special provision for amputation either generally or in relation to advancing age. They have, however, recommended that a new allowance should be introduced for those pensioners whose disablement, whether due to amputation or other disabilities is of such exceptional severity that they are receiving constant attendance allowance at a rate above

913
the normal maximum or would be receiving it but for the fact that they are in hospital. I am happy also to accept this recommendation. The new allowance will be at the rate of £3 a week. While, again, I cannot tell the House precisely how many pensioners are likely to be affected, since many of those who may be eligible are in hospital and will have to be medically examined, I estimate that up to a thousand war pensioners may benefit from the new allowance and a similar number of industrial injury pensioners.
"My Department will take steps to identify and review all the cases who may be affected by these improvements; no application will be necessary. As the House will appreciate, this process will take some time but I hope it will be possible for most of the new awards which depend upon amendment of the Royal Warrant to be made by the end of March. As regards the industrial injuries scheme, legislation will be necessary. I hope to be able to include the necessary provision in legislation which will be coming before the House this Session.
"The estimated cost of these improvements is of the order of £½ million in a full year."
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, may I first thank the noble Lord for that Statement? Secondly, may I—and I am sure I speak on behalf of all your Lordships—join in the thanks and appreciations expressed by the noble Lord to my noble friend Lord McCorquodale of Newton and his colleagues for the very detailed work that has been done in this inquiry? I am sure we shall all welcome the two improvements that are made in the Schedules, and the new allowances. But I think that, before we make any further comments, we should like to study the Report, for this is a very detailed and meticulous area of pensions and compensation, and also one which arouses very deep feelings, not only among those who are disabled, but among, for example, the war pensions committees up and down the country. So I feel that we owe it to them to make a full study of the Report before we comment.
LORD McCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: My Lords, I am very much
914
obliged to your Lordships, and to those in another place, to whom I have just been listening, for the very kind remarks about the work of my distinguished colleagues and myself in this matter. I would say that we are still more pleased by the Government's ready acceptance of our proposals, which I hope will at least do something further to ease the lot of these most deserving pensioners.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, I am grateful to the two noble Lords for what they have said.

PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment: Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of December 13), Bill read 3ª, and passed.

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION AND BENEFIT (AMENDMENT) BILL
4.23 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Bowles.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD AILWYN in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Supplementation of workmen's compensation]:
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall be agreed to?
LORD DRUMALBYN: I should like to say a word on this clause because, although the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, was extremely good in answering a great many questions I put to him on Second Reading, there was one, in which I was particularly interested, which he deferred answering. That is on the question of the principles on which the reassessment of what are called the new partials—that is those who are partially disabled and who at the present time are receiving less than the maximum—will be made.

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The noble Lord has been kind enough to write me a letter on this subject (and I would express my appreciation of that) in which he says that it is the intention that the compensation will be based on a comparison over a period of the standards of remuneration in the pre-accident and post-accident jobs. And he goes on to say that it is proposed to read into the scheme a provision for taking account of loss of prospects of advancement. I am sure that this was absolutely right and proper. The difficulty the Committee are in here is that the way in which this particular provision is to be carried out is to be laid down subsequently in regulations. But, as we all know, when the regulations come along, we can either accept the lot or throw them out: we cannot amend them. Therefore, I felt it was important that the House should have this information before it passed this stage of the Bill. I understand, as the noble Lord said on the Second Reading, that it is proposed that the administration of this particular supplementation should be brought into line with the administration of the special hardship allowance, which of course is not at present open to those on workmen's compensation; nor will it be, without further legislation in future. The system, I understand, is to be similar to that.
There is one point that I would make, arising out of the noble Lord's letter to me. He says in the letter that one of the difficulties in the past has been that there has been too great flexibility about workmen's compensation payments; they have been liable to fluctuate too much, and therefore the Government have decided that rates will be fixed and that they shall remain unchanged. The actual letter says:
"The allowance once awarded will remain unchanged other than to meet exceptional circumstances."
My point is simply that, in my own experience, wherever there arises any question of defining "exceptional circumstances", "exceptional change in circumstances", or "unforeseen change in circumstances", the tendency is that they have to be frightfully exceptional and frightfully unforeseen before anything is done at all.
916
All I would suggest to the Government is that, in drawing up these regulations, they should not jump out of the frying pan into the fire; they should not go from supplementation which was too flexible to something which cannot be changed at all except in the most remote and unheard of circumstances. I hope that they will retain some flexibility in this scheme, even although I entirely approve of the general plan that they are introducing of getting much more regularity, much more certainty, about these allowances, and indeed keeping them at a fairly steady rate which can be raised automatically at the time when changes are made in industrial injuries benefits.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, may I just thank the noble Lord for what he has said? I think the answer to this question is this. He having been a Minister of Pensions and National Insurance himself will quite well know that the Ministry really takes great notice of what is said in either House of Parliament. I think that might be of some comfort to him. At least so far as I have got any possible chance of influencing anybody, I will do what I possibly can. But as I understood the position when I was studying it last week, I rather got the impression that the Board has wide powers, which is one of the joys of this scheme, and it takes away harsh interpretation of the Workmen's Compensation Acts by the courts. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Lord.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed:
Bill reported without amendment; Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of December 13), Bill read 3ª, and passed.

RURAL WATER SUPPLIES AND SEWERAGE BILL
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.

HOUSING (SLUM CLEARANCE COMPENSATION) BILL
4.34 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the Consideration of the Commons Reason for disagreeing to the Lords Amendments.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Reason for disagreeing to the Lords Amendments be now considered. It may be for the convenience of the House if I move this Motion formally, so that the main discussion may be taken on the next Motion which I propose to move, That the House doth not insist on the Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Commons Reason for disagreeing to the Lords Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Mitchison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
COMMONS REASON FOR DISAGREEING TO THE LORDS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill (11) as first printed for the House of Lords. The Commons Reason is printed in italics]
LORDS AMENDMENTS
Clause 1, page 1, leave out lines 10 to 16 and insert (" to any such order made before 13th December 1970,")
line 21, leave out subsection (2).
The Commons disagreed to these Amendments for the following Reason:
Because they involve a charge on public funds and affect rates levied by local authorities, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason trusting the above Reason may he deemed sufficient.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth not insist on the Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed. Your Lordships will remember that this Bill was to continue some special relief which had been given to a class of owner-occupiers who bought houses which were thereafter condemned, and who bought them during the period between the end of the war and the resumption of the slum clearance campaign in 1955. The relief originally offered, which was by way of an increase in the compensation allowed on the compulsory purchase or demolition
918
or closing of their houses, was that they should get market value instead of the normal compensation, site value.
The original Act of 1956, subsequently included in a consolidating measure in 1957, provided for that relief to be given to those whose houses were dealt with in this way up to the end of a period of ten years after the resumption of the slum clearance campaign. The period of ten years has in fact now expired by a day or two, and the question that arose on this Bill, and subsequently on this Amendment, was how far it should be continued. The proposal in the Bill itself was that it should be continued, except in the case of those who had occupied their houses for fifteen years or more. The proposal in the Amendment was that it should be continued without that Amendment.
The matter was argued at some length and most carefully, and the case for continuing it indefinitely, that is to say the case for the Amendment, was nut with a lucidity and a fairness which certainly give me no cause for anything but admiration, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and the noble Lord, Lord St. Helens, who supported him. I put, as best I could, the case for disagreeing with the Amendment. It was carried on a Division, and the Bill was therefore returned to another place, who have now produced as their Reason for disagreeing with it what amounts to a claim for privilege. In the matter of money, the proposal in the Bill as it is would cost, so far as one can estimate (and these figures are quite rough), about £3 million; the cost with the Amendment would be about £8 million. The main impact of both these sums would be on the rates. There would be a corresponding, but smaller, burden caused by the operation of the rate-deficiency grant.
That, I think, is all one can say about the matter. I think that there is no deep question of principle. There is, of course, the question of what one feels is fair. If nothing had been done, this special compensation would have lapsed entirely, as it has lapsed. The question is whether, and to what extent, it should be continued. I repeat, the matter was fairly put. I hope that I put it fairly; I am sure that the two noble Lords who spoke on the other side did. Now the Amendments have been returned to us on a question of cost—the question of the money

919
involved. In these cases, as your Lordships know, no other Reasons are given. I therefore beg to move, that this House doth not insist on the Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed. I ought perhaps to add that the second Amendment is purely consequential.
Moved, That this House doth not insist on the Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed. (Lord Mitchison.)
4.40 p.m.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends Lord Newton and Lord St. Helens may I say how much I know they would appreciate the kind words which the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, used in regard to their exposition of the case from these Benches, and to express on their behalf apologies for their inability to be here to-day.
The noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, put the matter this afternoon with his customary blandness and lucidity, but I cannot agree with him that it is a matter as simple as deciding where to draw the line. The fact remains that a considerable injustice is going to be done to those unfortunate owner-occupiers—and I was glad to know that he used the phrase "owner-occupiers" and not "landlords", because in the main it is owner-occupiers which whom we are dealing to-day. We are concerned with people who bought sub-standard houses in the poorer areas of the cities of England during the period from 1939, at the beginning of the war (not at the end of the war, as the noble Lord suggested), to 1955, confident that they could make a go of it by carrying out improvements, often of an expensive nature, and turning what was poor property into cosy homes. And now they find that, in order that local authorities may proceed with their slum clearance programmes, they are to be turned out of these properties and are to be paid only the site value, whereas others who bought similar properties at a more recent date will be paid market value. These people are to be the victims of what is in other respects a beneficient social service—slum clearance.
The measure of the injustice is the amount of money involved, which can be only an estimate—namely, about £8 million. If it is a saving to the Exchequer of
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£8 million, or a saving of that sum to the Exchequer and the local authorities combined, that is the precise measure of the injustice to these unfortunate individuals. They are having to subsidise the slum clearance programme out of their very slender resources to the extent of something like £8 million. Who are these people? They are sensible, decent, worthy citizens who tried to make a home for themselves in difficult circumstances: during the war, when a great deal of property was bombed and destroyed, and in the immediate post-war decade, when houses were in even shorter supply than they are to-day and when no start had been made in an organised slum clearance programme.
Without the Amendments the Bill will hurt particularly those older people at the 1939 end of the situation, who have been in their houses longer. Many of them are old-age pensioners, who have been unable to amass the necessary resources to buy alternative accommodation at current prices, and who are now to be turned out of their nice homes, receiving nothing more than site value. And this in order to save the local authorities and the Exchequer a certain amount of money!
I am sorry the noble Lord has not seen fit to deal more with the human side of what is involved. I am sure the noble Lord, in his conscientious way, will have studied the debates in another place on the Bill, and it is interesting to see the specific examples which were mentioned. I know that I am prohibited by convention from quoting the speeches of honourable Members in another place, but it is worth reading the individual cases which were cited and of the real hardship which will be caused. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that not one single supporter of the Government in another place rose to speak in support of his own Government's position in this matter. Indeed, on this particular matter they did not do so at all while the Bill was going through its various stages in another place. It is also interesting to see that, in the debate on the Amendment, the Liberals in another place spoke strongly in favour of our Amendment, as indeed did noble Lords who spoke from the Liberal Benches in your Lordships' House.

921
The noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, referred to the form of the Commons Reason for disagreeing with our Amendments, but I think I should make plain that this is only a matter of form. When Lords Amendments necessitate an assertion of the Commons privilege, the disagreement is made on the grounds of privilege alone. Therefore, it should not be thought to be a case of another place turning aside our Amendments solely on the grounds of finance. It is the standard form, and one has only to look at the debate in another place to see how deep and sincere were the feelings which were aroused there by the sincerity and the justification of our Amendment. I am deeply sorry to learn from the noble Lord to-day that Her Majesty's Government are unmoved in face of the pleas both by your Lordships and by Members of another place, and that they are not prepared to accept the Amendment as sent back to another place, or some suitable modification of it. They claim to be a humanitarian Government, a Government which stands for the rights of ordinary decent individuals, but when it comes to doing anything for those small owner-occupiers in the heart of our great cities—old-age pensioners, the infirm, decent ordinary folk—they themselves are as stony-hearted as they claim others to be who do not have the same political minds as they.
It now remains for noble Lords to consider whether they should accept the proposition of Lord Mitchison. As I have attempted to explain, the Commons Reason is cast in a common form. It does not preclude us from debating the issue as widely as we wish, but we should not fall into the error of thinking that the Reason as given is the only reason we should fall back on and debate. We must also remember the many difficulties of the present Government at this moment. It is questionable whether we should be helping the cause of these unfortunate people, or indeed helping the Government of the country in their great difficulties, if we were to make this matter the subject of a major clash between the two Houses. It is therefore with deep regret and sorrow that I have advised my noble friends not to divide the House on this occasion but to accept, with extreme reluctance, the flimsy reasons put
922
forward by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, who I know from his own humanitarian instincts must have deeply regretted the stand which he, as a member of Her Majesty's Government, has had to take on this matter.
LORD MITCHISON: Not in the least, my Lords—I am rather glad to take the stand. I am rescuing a number of owner-occupiers from the fate they would have met had the original intentions of the Tory Party been carried out. This was exceptional relief given to people for a limited period. If nothing whatever had been done to rescue them from the malevolence of the Conservative Party, they would not now be getting that exceptional relief. What this Government are doing is to rescue them.
The only question raised in this Amendment is how many of them, and the extent to which they should be rescued at the expense of the ratepayers and the taxpayers. The Government, for the reasons which I expressed on Second Reading of this Bill and in the discussion of this Amendment, have arrived at what they think is a fair figure. It is true that it is much kinder to them than the original Conservative Bill was; it is true that it is much kinder to them than at the time were the Government of which the noble Lord who has just spoken was such a distinguished member. But we have to rescue them from that Government. I am glad that the noble Lord so fully recognises the need for doing it. He is rescuing these people from the malevolence of his own Party. He is rescuing them from the evil intentions of those distinguished "old warriors", if I may so describe them, Mr. Duncan Sandys and Mr. Enoch Powell, who both at the time gave reasons for limiting the special compensation which was being given to these cases.
May I take the opportunity of saying that, of course, I meant the beginning of the war, although I inadvertently said the end I apologise for what was a slip of the tongue, but no more. But the substance of the matter—I am sorry to have to repeat this again, and the reason why we had to do this; I thought that noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, himself, had understood it—is simply the original Tory Act. Looking back now, I think it was a very harsh and unfair piece of legislation,

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but the last Government passed it and it is from that Act that we are rescuing these people now. It really amuses me to hear the noble Lord get up and shed crocodile tears, if he does not mind my using the phrase—it is not meant offensively against him personally; I can assure him of that—over the terrible lot that fell upon these people, which is the result of what his own Government did, the Government of which he was a member.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ABANDONED CARS AND DUMPED RUBBISH
4.51 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they have made towards securing that the English countryside is cleared and kept clear of abandoned motor cars and other dumped rubbish. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this represents my annual assault on the problem of the clearing-up of the countryside. On January 23, 1964, I raised the question first and outlined the problem as I saw it in considerable detail. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, who was the junior Minister at the time, replied for the Government. He admitted that the problem existed. He thought, indeed, that it might become greater, because of the increased prosperity of the country and the increased ownership of property of various kinds. He said that an inter-departmental working party had been set up to consider the matter in May, 1963, but he considered that motor vehicles were a separate problem from the other problem of bulky litter, and that the local authorities were already tackling the question of motor vehicles. He said that the general question of bulky litter outside the ordinary refuse collection would be considered when the working party reported.
On May 13 of that year, I put down a Starred Question, to find out whether the working party had reported, and the answer was, "Not yet". So on November 26, 1964, I raised the matter again in an Unstarred Question, to find out whether the working party had reported, and I was supported among others by my noble friend Lord
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Mancroft, who detailed some dark deeds done down Montagu Square way. I elicited the fact that the working party had not yet completed its investigations, though in the previous July a draft circular had been sent round to the local authorities and such people as scrap dealers. They commented, and on October 22, 1964, a further draft went round, which it was hoped might be a finalised draft.
Apparently, the final circular went out dated February 11, 1965, and the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, was kind enough to send me a copy of it. It was a very excellent circular indeed, as it must be, because it contained almost a précis of our debate of the previous January on the subject, but it dealt only with old motor cars. I would commend to your Lordships' attention the time factor. This was a working party which was appointed in May, 1963, and they sent out a circular on one-half of their job in February, 1965. This seems to me to be a typical example of government by committee which pertains in Britain to-day, and the reason why things are so difficult to get moving is because of the appalling delays of this type of system. I do not know whether there has been another circular regarding the other bulky waste, but the committee's terms of reference, as I understand it, were certainly to deal with other bulky waste as well as motor cars.
There are two points in the circular on motor cars which I think are very apposite, and I should like to refer to them. First of all, in paragraph 10, the working party say:
"To be effective, action should be taken by all refuse disposal authorities."
I should also like to read out the whole of sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 11:
"Section 74 of the Public Health Act 1936 empowers local authorities to make a charge, if they think fit, for accepting a motor car for disposal; but private owners will be most likely to make use of the disposal arrangements if the service to them is free. Old cars are usually abandoned by people who are no longer able or willing to incur any further expense on them and even a nominal charge may prove to be a deterrent."
I agree wholeheartedly with that, because it is a paraphrase of my speech on the subject.
I had confirmation of this even yesterday, when talking to a young relative of

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mine who happened to have a "runner" which had ceased to be a runner and who was considering how to dispose of it. Not for him, if possible, the resort to the scrap dealer who charged, but some quiet corner round his locality, which, needless to say, I told him he must not do. That is a typical example of the impecunious youth who has not got the £2, £3, £4 or £5 for disposing of an "old crock".
In the light of what I read out from that circular, I think the charge of £2 per car for disposal by the Westminster City Council, which I read about in the Press, is a mistake. It will drive owners to go outside the boundaries and dump their cars elsewhere, because, as the circular so rightly says, the system must be universal and free. Obviously, to be able to afford the very expensive crushing machines which your Lordships will remember seeing in the film Goldfinger, more than one local authority will have to share the expenses.
This debate is about all bulky waste —anything, in fact, which is not acceptable in the routine refuse collection. The circular, which was accepted by all local authorities, shows what they are trying to do about motor cars, or what Whitehall thinks they ought to be doing about motor cars, but we are in the dark as to what they are actually doing. At the same time, it throws no light at all on what is happening to the other stuff, and I look forward to having a Government reply on this point.
A private individual can get an impression of only a very small part of England, but in my immediate locality I think the position is a trifle better than it was a year ago. On visiting the favourite dumping grounds around Crawley New Town, mattresses seem rather scarce and furniture is not so ubiquitous as it was. But there seems to be a residue of small stuff, such as drums, large tins, discarded old silencers and portions of motor cars; while, of course, the hot-water cylinder that sprung a leak always finds its way into a hedgerow in the country. Other noble Lords may be able to provide evidence from their own experiences.
I have just been handed a cutting from the Yorkshire Post dated December 13, 1965, in which it says:
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"The county surveyor of Westmorland, in his annual report, reported that during the recent holiday season ten tons of wastepaper, tins and bottles were collected for every mile in one cleaning operation on the A.6 north of Kendal".
I am not thinking primarily of wastepaper, tins and bottles, because I regard those as the smaller waste; nevertheless when it comes to disfiguring the countryside they are certainly just as important as other waste.
In my locality, the rural authority will eventually have a clean-up, I suppose, as they do periodically, but labour is scarce and finance is a problem—and this brings me to another point. In all our discussions I have always stressed the view that the disposal of bulky waste was largely a financial problem. Given the money, the local authority could provide a service good enough to make it not worth while to dump. If there is not a good enough service in the towns, the burden will fall on the rural authority to clear up the hedgerows, which is unfair and is inefficient, because it means double handling—first to dump and then to "undump". One hears that central Government relief for the rates is impending. When this financial settlement is made, will Her Majesty's Government look into the question of providing some relief to the rural authorities to enable them to finance a proper system for clearing their areas of waste, most of which is suspected to emanate from the towns? I think this is fair. The town dweller likes to drive out into the clean countryside; and, as I say, one suspects that much of the mess is created by those from the towns. A uniform burden on the taxpayer to keep the countryside clean would seem more equitable than one on the comparatively smaller number of rural ratepayers.
In conclusion, may I say that I am glad that the problem of the worn-out motor vehicle is at last sinking in here and there, but I remain to be convinced that it is treated universally seriously. However, I do not see great comfort in the efforts so far made to deal with the other forms of bulky waste, and I hope the noble Lord who is to reply will be able to give me more reassurance on that point.
5.4 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I have always supported my noble friend on the

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previous occasions when he has raised this matter, and I am duty bound, of course, to support him again to-day. I complain very slightly, if I may, about the wording of his Question, because he talks about "the English countryside ". My Lords, it is the English town-side as well. I must declare an interest, even though my noble friend may already have declared it for me. I wish he had not mentioned Montagu Square and the dark doings I referred to in our last debate, because the immediate result of raising that matter in your Lordships' House last time was that the very next morning there appeared outside my house a disused baker's van which took me eight days and cost a considerable amount in bribery to get removed.
This problem is common both to countryside and town. If the noble Lord doubts my word, he has only to go and look in Whitehall, where a small Vespa motor cycle was, at least last night, deposited at the end of Whitehall and Parliament Square, and, for all I know, is still there to-day. Perhaps he will go down to Cromwell Road, which is my favourite hunting ground for dumped rubbish but which has been rapidly improved since the railings were put there. Alas! Two days ago it was going back to its old form, and this with a specimen I have never seen in the eight years I have been keeping watch there—an old trombone.
May I briefly commend three points to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison? I apologise for doing it again: I have done it about twenty times. Have we discovered what foreign countries do about this problem, or are they as regardless of it as we are? Have we investigated the possibility of dumping these disused cars and ironmongery out at sea, or is the cost of doing that prohibitive? Whichever course we adopt, I hope the noble Lord will agree with my noble friend Lord Hawke that this matter will have to be considered on a national basis. It must be a national service, which is understood on a national basis, and it must be a charge on the country as a whole; otherwise it will be universally evaded.
My Lords, I was glad to see that our debate last year was reported in that circular, particularly as my own speech
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was repeated in much better English than I myself command. Perhaps I may be excused from taking part in this debate next year, because I have a nasty feeling that the noble Lord will put exactly the same Question on the Paper and I expect will receive exactly the same answer.
5.6 p.m.
LORD CAWLEY: My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lord Hawke. I think I can say that in the Woking area things may not be quite as good as in the Crawley New Town area, because recently I received a full-scale timber-framed mattress, in good condition, with springs, over the hedge into my garden. I would not have objected—I might have been able to use it—but it was deposited on top of a rather rare rhododendron which I had just planted, doing considerable damage to it. That is about the only experience I have had of this, except for bicycle frames and bottles, which of course arrive in my garden by the score. On one occasion I received 24 milk bottles, bearing a Camberley dairyman's name, arranged neatly in a row. I cannot complain: but I must support my noble friend and say that a lot of trouble has been taken about cars, but little has been taken about other objects which may be thrown over the hedges.
I should like to say something about depositing rubbish at sea. I know it is done quite a lot. I know it is done off Plymouth, because when I went on a marine biological course at Plymouth we used to dredge there and there was a most interesting set of animals which lived amongst the rubbish. We used to fetch up old teapots covered with sea anemonies and wormlike creatures which were of great interest. That was certainly an economic and simple way of getting rid of your rubbish.
5.8 p.m.
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, I wonder whether your Lordships will forgive me for joining this debate at a late stage, but one suggestion has been made which I feel has a lot of merit, and I should be grateful for your Lordships' consideration of it. It is that on every new purchase of a car there should be an additional licence fee of two guineas which would be paid into a fund which would be held and could be claimed against by local authorities when they

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had an old, disused car to pick up and dispose of. In that way it would be paid for. As new cars came on the market the fund would grow and the old cars would then start to disappear. With planned obsolescence, the useful life of a car is rapidly decreasing, and instead of having wonderful old Morris Cowleys around there will soon be only five-year-old cars completely disused and appearing on the streets in this way. The problem is going to grow rather than get better, and, as the new cars came along, the fund would grow and could take care of these cars when they in turn became wrecks.
5.10 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, may I begin in all sincerity by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, for raising this subject again. I think it is his fourth effort; but I am very glad indeed that he goes on hammering at it. It is necessary. This is really a matter for the local authorities. There must, of course, be powers to deal with the position in some form or another—they may be powers of prosecution; they may be other powers. That is naturally the business of Central Government. But when it comes to dealing with the question of people dumping bulky rubbish or motor cars, I think that clearly that cannot be done by some sort of campaign from Whitehall. It is a task the local authorities must carry out; and the circular to which the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, referred was sent out to local authorities to help and encourage them and to stress the importance of this question. I am sorry to disappoint him in thinking it was the debate here which was the cause of the circular, because in looking at the time of the debate I find that the circular was already in its final draft and had gone out at that time. Whether it was the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, who prompted the circular or whether it was the circular which inspired the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, is a question we need not trouble about. They were both on the right path.
It is, of course, not true to say that nothing has been done about this question: or that it has been left at the circular stage. What in fact has happened has been that, as regards the motor cars—and I have not forgotten the other dumped rubbish—there has been an
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informal committee with representatives of the Ministry and representatives of local authorities. You cannot treat individually with all the local authorities in these cases; you must deal with the associations, and the associations then have to deal with their members. They have all been represented and the London boroughs, who have a peculiar problem, have been represented by Haringey, which speaks on behalf of the others. This informal committee has led to a very considerable number of authorities —about 50 in the county council range, when I last heard of them—taking action and moving in the matter. The sort of thing they do is to come to arrangements with the trade—arrangements which vary from case to case and which I think ought to be left to the local authorities and to the local trade representatives—about the disposal of these disused motor cars.
The right advice, if I may respectfully say so, to be given by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, to his impecunious young relative is: "Ask the council". That is the right thing to do. Of course, if you can manage it through the trade on a private basis there is nothing to prevent you from doing so; but if difficulties of pocket or circumstances prevent this, then the right course is to go to the council.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the noble Lord said that 50 councils have done something about this. Am I right in saying that there are rather more than 50 councils in England?
LORD MITCHISON: Yes, but I said these were on the county council level—although I think I dropped my voice at that point and perhaps the noble Lord did not hear me. But that is the position.
My Lords, I will now turn from the county councils to the other authorities concerned. The county boroughs have been asked to take action about this, and take a view somewhat like that expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, to-day, which I myself would expect to be true. They say that the trouble is that the people go out and dump outside the borough. One particular town clerk expressed this point very clearly. There is no point in instancing the case; but it clearly must be so. I am not for a

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moment denying the existence of similar difficulties inside the towns, too. But for the boroughs in particular, and especially the boroughs not of the wholly unmanageable size of modern London, there is no doubt it is a problem—not only of what happens there but of their own borough residents going out into the country and dumping motor cars there.
I turn from that to the London problem. I am afraid I did not spot the object at the bottom of Whitehall and did not get as far as the Cromwell Road to-day. However, there is no doubt that a great deal of cars are being left in one place or another. I think the number is possibly exaggerated, but as nobody can produce exact figures it is difficult to say. But there is no doubt the problem exists. The London boroughs are being pretty good about it. They are taking steps to make similar arrangements to those which I have described about getting rid of the scrap. It would take an insufferable amount of time if I went over this position borough by borough and county by county and tried to say what arrangements have been made in each case, and I am not sure it would be a good thing to do so because in many cases the authorities are merely experimenting.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I ask this question? The circular recommended that the service should be free. Do the majority in fact provide this service free or do they, as in Westminster, charge for it?
LORD MITCHISON: I should have to obtain the information to answer that. That would involve the question of how many councils have exactly what arrangements started already. I can try to find out that information. I hope the noble Lord will excuse me from having a special, detailed inquiry. I will inquire about it and give him general information. I agree with what the noble Lord said and I shall come to the question of central funds in a minute. I agree with him that the service ought to be free because the people who are going to throw the cars away are the kind of people mentioned in the paragraph of the circular he quoted: people rather badly off, last owners and probably the poorest owners, and perhaps the least careful owners, of the cars in question. There is
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every case for doing this free and if it is done on a wide enough scale it is thought that the scrap dealers, the breakers-up, can make something out of it and there may be no need to charge. It depends on the scale on which it is done.
On that point, before I leave London, there is one very encouraging feature in that the Greater London Council is taking an interest in this problem. They have not taken any definite steps so far—they have hardly been in a position to do so—but are co-ordinating the efforts made in the first instance by the boroughs. In London, as in the country, this is a question best tackled in the first place by the smaller local authorities; that is to say the district councils in the counties and borough councils in the towns, at any rate so far as collection goes. It may be possible to co-ordinate a little more—and by co-ordinating I mean working together literally—the arrangements for disposal. It can be done and some local authorities are beginning to try out (it has been a little slow, I agree) the possibility of getting larger plant which can deal with a considerable number of cars at a time.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, asked me about the position in other countries. This is a very acute problem in America. They have more cars; but they have one advantage (if it is an advantage) in this respect—namely, they have a great deal more room. But they are trying to get their disused cars broken up, and are using very large plants indeed. I gather that when one says "large" one means over 100 cars a day.
Of course, you cannot deal with them on Goldfinger lines, where. I understand, the car, passengers and everything else were all squashed up into one enormous, glorious lump. I did not see the film, but that is not the practical way to do it. There are parts of a car which are far more valuable when the car is broken up than when it is squashed up. For example, you have to keep other metals away from steel; and there is not much that you can do with decayed coachwork. But I am not trying to teach the scrap dealers their trade; I think they know it pretty well. There is an opening for the disposal of cars, breaking them up into a suitable form, so that the steel and

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other bits can be disposed of, on a scale rather larger than it is now being exploited and carried out.
When I first inquired into this subject I shared with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, the feeling, "Have they done anything about it since the circular was issued?" The information which I have been given, the substance of which I have been trying to convey to the House, convinced me that progress has been about as fast as one can encourage local authorities to move in a matter of this kind. It is a difficult business for them. It varies in different cases and it is a not very attractive problem. There is no enormous immediate advantage to be gained. But it is a public service which requires to be performed.
I wish to turn for a moment to answer a question from the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, about other countries. I asked about this on my own initiative, and I was told that another country which is finding this matter troublesome and doing a good deal about it is Western Germany. I do not know what is happening in other European countries. They are, I think, going on more or less the same lines as we are. But, of course, our system of local government and that of other European countries, and of America, is so different that it is rather difficult to make a comparison on those lines.
Turning to the question of money, I would point out that the present arrangement is that all expenditure, if there was expenditure on this matter, would be borne in the first place by the rates, and if there was a profit it would go in the first place to the relief of the rates. But there is a rate-deficiency grant, and the intention and effect of that grant is that where councils have to bear what I might call an undue burden, a burden beyond their proper share, they should get relief from public funds. Councils which are troubled in that way do get that relief. Not every county gets rate-deficiency grant. It is reckoned on a comparison between what they can levy from the ratepayers and the duties which the council has to perform. This is a duty which would rank for a rate-deficiency grant. I suggest to your Lordships that this is the right way to do it.
In a way, this illustrates rather well the advantages of the rate-deficiency
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grant, Had we no rate-deficiency grant, we could be left with an almost insoluble problem about who would pay what. Take a case where someone took a car from borough "A" deposited it in the rural district of "B", and the rural district of "B", with the assistance of two more rural districts and the co-ordination of the county concerned, finally broke it up and sold it to the scrap dealer. How the burden, or advantage—for it might be an advantage—would fall, would be a very difficult matter to decide. Because that kind of question arises, not only in connection with disused motor cars, but with many other things; we have a rate-deficiency grant. If any alteration is to be made in the relation between local and central Government finance, I feel sure of one thing: there will be, there must be, an arrangement of the same sort in respect of cases now dealt with by the rate-deficiency grant. That is to say, a burden which, in some cases, is heavier than in others, or, conversely, resources which may be greater in one case than another, must be taken into account. I suggest that that is where the rate-deficiency grant, or perhaps a later and better adaptation of the relation between local and central finance, would be useful and the right way to deal with the matter.
My Lords, I have been talking about motor cars and taken them as an instance. It is an instance where this circular has been sent out and one can define, more or less accurately, what has been done. But there is the general question of bulk—
VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORN: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves the question of motor cars, I wish to ask him a question. I have listened to everything he said with great interest. I have always realised that this is a problem which will increase. Can the noble Lord tell me whether the suggested figure of £2, which was put out by certain authorities, for collection and disposal, was based on any knowledge of the cost, or was it a sort of shot? Would £2 bring in a surplus, or would there still be a deficiency? Does the noble Lord know the answer to that question?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question. The fixing of the £2 is, of course, a matter for the local authority. What I think the

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noble Viscount has in mind is that somewhere there must be some figures which would give an idea whether there was a balance between cost and expenditure in a run of cases. All I can say is that I am told that in fact some councils make a charge and others make no charge. Whatever charge is made now, I think that one should bear in mind the possibility that the methods of disposal may be improved by increasing the size of the plant used for the purpose, and as a consequence charges which may now be right may not necessarily be right in a short time. I doubt—I say this speaking off the cuff—whether local authorities would seek to make an undue profit in a transaction of this sort. It may be that they ought not to charge at all, and do charge. But I should have thought that extortionate charges would be unlikely.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I make one point? If there are these varying charges, with some councils charging and some not, people who live in the areas where a charge is made will dump, and it will cost the "dumpee" a great deal more than £2 to collect the dumped vehicle—more than can be got for it. Therefore surely it would be better for it all to be free.
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I am not here to argue any general principle, but I suggest that one has to be rather careful about going too far in imposing rules on local authorities in a matter of this sort. That is the same kind of point which used to arise in respect of library charges, and I think that in the case of library charges there was a much better case for uniformity. What was done in the circular, as the noble Lord clearly pointed out, was that local authorities were pressed not to make any charges at all and were told that they could make it pay. To order them to do it without making any charge would be, I think, contrary to the way in which we usually deal with local authorities, and it would, I believe, cause a disproportionate amount of resentment. I should deprecate that way of doing it. At the same time, I would join with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, in pressing on local authorities the desirability of providing this service free, if possible, and seeing, as indeed my
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right honourable friend Mr. George Brown would see, whether in the circumstances it was possible to improve methods and so to decrease or obliterate the charges, instead of making up for inadequate methods by unnecessary charges. I am not suggesting that the methods are inadequate. I merely say that they may be, and that most methods are capable of some improvement.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, in the part of London where I live it seems to be particularly common for people to deposit their cars. If I find one at a nearby front door, with no number-plates and the licence has expired, and I presume that it has been abandoned, who is the right authority for me to get in touch with: the police or the local authority? Would it be permissible for me to telephone them on the first day I see the car, or must I leave it for a certain amount of time so that it proves to be abandoned?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I think that the right people to ring up are the borough council. There are police powers, but the responsibility is the borough council's. I suggest that it is a good thing that the noble Lord should take every possible opportunity of reminding them of these powers, but remembering, as I hope we all shall, that this is a problem which really arises out of the way we live in a crowded island, and one should not be too hard on people who are trying to cope with this problem, perhaps for the first time.
I am sorry to take so much time. In regard to other refuse, particularly bulky refuse, there is provision for dealing with litter. But litter seems to increase constantly in size and may vary from the cigarette end to the dead elephant. There is a Litter Act. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, and other noble Lords will not be too angry with me if I assure them that there is another body concerned with this matter—this time not a committee, but a Working Party. Like all Working Parties, they really have been working, and they have the advantage of consisting of people who are experienced in the problem they are dealing with. This Working Party hope to report in the spring of next year.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, can we sort this one out? Is this the Working

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Party who were appointed in May, 1963, with, I understand, dual responsibility, or is it the purely motor car Working Party?
LORD MITCHISON: My Lords, I do not think that it is the motor car Working Party, but one specially concerned with dealing with litter. I do not know its date of birth, but I think that it is a younger child than 1963. May I leave it at that at the moment? As I said, they are hoping to report in the spring of next year.
I agree with what has been said about litter being a real problem. I do not think that it is so large as the motor car problem, but it may be. That is one of the matters which the Working Party will no doubt let us know about. From time to time, criticisms have been made of the Litter Act. There may be questions as to whether there ought to be some further legislation, but I am inclined to think, as regards both refuse and cars, that the necessary powers are there. It is a case of organising and encouraging the use of them. If I have not said much about refuse in general, it is because a good deal of the same considerations—the functions of local authorities, and so on—apply here as in the case of motor cars.
I really am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, and to other speakers for raising this question, and for raising it repeatedly, because I am sure that it is a matter where local authorities need encouragement and a reminder that something must be done about it. I am sure that if this problem is neglected it will get worse. In fact, I do not think that it is getting worse; and that is one of the factors which make me think that the efforts that have been made are to some extent being successful. I feel that this question requires constant attention, and is just the sort of thing where Members of your Lordships' House may be able to do something practical to help, either by ringing up local authorities and saying, "There is a 'dead' car at my door" or something of that sort, or, where noble Lords serve on local authori-
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ties, by reminding them that, though this matter does not sound very important, it really is something that has to be dealt with. I hope that I have answered all the questions. If not, I will answer by letter any that I am asked.

SOUTHERN RHODESIA (PETROLEUM) ORDER 1965
Order made under the Southern Rhodesia Act 1965 by Her Majesty in Council: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) under Standing Order No. 62 on Saturday last for Affirmative Resolution; and referred to the Special Orders Committee forthwith.
Fourth Report from the Special Orders Committee made; to be printed, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  THAMES BARRAGE SCHEME
  THAMES BARRAGE SCHEME