Sitting of 10 March 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME CORPORATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
  BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL (By Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  UNIVERSITIES

    Wales (Veterinary Science)
    Mr. C. Hughesasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will authorise the establishment of a faculty of veterinary science in one of the constituent colleges of the University of Wales.
    The Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science (Mr. Quintin Hogg): The report of the Departmental Committee of Inquiry into the future needs for veterinary graduates under the Chairmanship of the Duke of Northumberland is now expected during the next two months. It would be premature to consider the establishment of a new veterinary school in advance of the report.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that many Welsh students are unable to take up this profession because of the lack of places in provincial universities? In view of the great need for veterinary surgeons in this country, and especially in the under-developed countries, will the right hon. and learned
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    Gentleman take action as soon as the report comes out to ensure that discussions take place with the University of Wales authorities?
    Mr. Hogg: I will certainly take action to ensure that it comes before the University Grants Committee, which, no doubt, will do exactly as the hon. Member suggests.
    Mr. Crossman: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also bring to the University Grants Committee's attention the disappointing record of the Cambridge Veterinary School, which, I think, cost£500,000 to build, costs £200,000 to run, has a staff of 40 and produces 15"vets" a year? Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman make sure that that is not repeated?
    Mr. Hogg: This Question relates to a new veterinary college in Wales, but I will bear in mind what the hon. Member has said.

    Wales
    Mr. Gowerasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science what representations he has received for the authorisation of an additional University in Wales.
    Mr. Hogg: I understand that representations have been received from the Borough of Flint, Hay Urban District Council, Llandrindod Wells Urban District Council and Montgomeryshire Education Committee for the establishment of a new university in their respective localities; the Monmouthshire Federation of Trades and Labour Councils has proposed Builth Wells, whilst the Rural District Council of Builth has supported Mid-Wales. In addition, hon. Members and other individuals have written to support these representations.
    Mr. Gower: Has my right hon. and learned Friend noted that the Civil Estimates, just published, reveal that Newcastle University alone will receive in grants something like three-quarters of the recurrent expenditure that the whole of Wales will receive and that Scotland, with less than twice the Welsh population, will receive nearly three times as much? Surely, this indicates that Wales is not getting a fair crack of the whip.
    Mr. Hogg: I assure the House that the University Grants Committee will take great note of what my hon. Friend has said.

    Scotland
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he is yet in a position to announce the siting of the new university in Scotland.
    Mr. Millanasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science when he expects to be able to announce the site for the new university in Scotland.
    Mr. Rossasked the Lord President of the Council, and Minister for Science what are the reasons for the delay in announcing the site of the new university in Scotland.
    Mr. Willisasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science when the University Grants Committee is expected to visit the possible sites for the proposed new university in Scotland.
    Mr. Hannanasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science how many submissions have been made of sites for new universities in Scotland; and if he will consult the Secretary of State for Scotland before making a decision.
    Mr. Hogg: As I told the House on 27th January, I have asked the University Grants Committee for advice on the choice of a location and I understand that the Committee is about to get in touch with sponsoring bodies with a view to arranging discussions and visits to the suggested locations which are seven in number. The decision will be taken only after full consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland but this important matter has to be thoroughly and fairly explored and the decision cannot be announced for some time yet. Until now the University Grants Committee has had to give priority to the emergency programme of university expansion to 1967–68, to which a new university would be unable to make any appreciable contribution.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is it not the case that discussions have already taken place betwen the U.G.C., the Scottish Education Department and the Scottish Development Department? Is it not also the case that one reason for the delay is the difficulty of arranging an itinerary for the U.G.C. in Scotland? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is anger and dismay in Scotland at this continued delay and the lack of evidence of any sense of urgency by the Government?
    Mr. Hogg: I am not aware of any of those things, but I will make inquiries as to what the hon. Gentleman has said. I must remind him, however, that the new university forms part of the 10-year plan, and, as I said, cannot make an appreciable contribution to the crash programme.
    Mr. Millan: Quite apart from dealing with the short-term emergency, is it not desirable to decide on the site of the new university in Scotland fairly soon? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the reason given by the U.G.C.—the difficulty of arranging visits to various sites—seems to us in Scotland thoroughly inadequate to explain the further delay over the selection of the site?
    Mr. Hogg: I should have thought it more important to get the site right than to get it at once.
    Mr. Ross: This situation is not new. Nor has is grown up only in the last two or three months. For years we have been trying to persuade the Government of the need for a new university. A fact-finding committee has been at work and Professor Walker Chambers has himself expressed disappointment that, after all this time, the Government still have not a sense of urgency. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether there will be further delay before the U.G.C. explores possible sites? Will not he think again about this and inject a certain urgency into the matter?
    Mr. Hogg: I still think that I would be wise to take the advice of the U.G.C. about the matter.
    Mr. Willis: Instead of taking advice from the U.G.C., will the right hon. and

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    learned Gentleman take steps to see that it visits these sites before the end of the year? Is he aware that it has been reported that it will not visit them until the end of the year? That is far too long to wait even for visits by the U.G.C.
    Mr. Hogg: I have not seen the reports to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I will draw the attention of the U.G.C. to what he has said.
    Mr. Hannan: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind the observation of the Robbins Report about the difficulties of the provision of student accommodation and that the delays at Keele, for example, arise out of that consideration alone? Will he also bear in mind that the new universities in England and Wales were provided in a much shorter space of time because the promotion committees for universities had already put in some hard work and these sites were visited? Is he aware that, in both these respects, East Stirlingshire has already indicated that it is well qualified?
    Mr. Hogg: I am sure that the U.G.C. will remember the advantages the hon. Gentleman claims for East Stirlingshire.
    Mr. Baxter: While one appreciates the need for great care to ensure that the new university is in the right place, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman see that a report is provided within a reasonable time—at least before the end of the year?
    Mr. Hogg: The Government have decided to accept the advice that there should be a new Scottish university and I am sure that the U.G.C. will not spend any more time than it deems absolutely necessary to decide on the site.
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be in order for me to advocate the claims of Inverness as a site for the new university?
    Mr. Speaker: No. Not now.

    Branching Teaching Machines
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science whether he will set up a committee to co-ordinate university teaching staff in devising programmes suitable for branching teaching machines.
    Mr. Hogg: I am aware of the development represented by branching teaching machines, which is now being considered by the Committee on Audio-Visual Aids in Higher Education, set up jointly by the University Grants Committee and the Education Departments. I would prefer to reserve my view of the hon. Member's suggestion until the report of the Committee is available.
    Mr. Dalyell: When is it expected?
    Mr. Hogg: Early next year, I am told.

    Physiology Departments (Professors)
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science how many physiology departments in British universities possess more than one full professorship.
    Mr. Hogg: As far as I have been able to ascertain there are four such departments.
    Mr. Wainwright: Does the right hon. Gentleman know that, according to information I have, there is only one physiology department in this country which has more than one full professor? Will he bear in mind that the ratio in America, taking the equivalents of staff and students, is one in 3·2? Is not this one of the main factors in the growing exodus of professors and lecturers from this country? There is no hope of promotion for them here.
    Mr. Hogg: Birmingham University has a professor of physiology and also a professor of physiological chemistry. Cambridge has chairs of physiology and a professor of the physiology of reproduction. University College, London, has two chairs of physiology, while Guy's Hospital Medical School has a chair of physiology and a chair of physiology with reference to dentistry.
    Mr. Crossman: As the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Department has advised him to look on professorships as the main cause of the "brain drain", what steps is he taking to increase the number of departments with more than one professor?
    Mr. Hogg: The allocation of posts and the setting up of chairs is, apart from the Royal Society professorships, of which I spoke the other day, for the

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    individual institutions and the University Grants Committee. I accept the recommendation of the Robbins Committee about the necessity for multiple chairs in university departments and the view that the one-professor faculty is outmoded.
    Mr. Crossman: Having accepted it, what will the right hon. and learned Gentleman do to impose his view on the Committee?
    Mr. Hogg: I do not think that it is the function of the Minister to impose his view on the U.G.C.

    Mathematics
    Mr. Boydenasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister of Science what is his estimate of the number of new honours graduates in mathematics required by the schools, industry and the Government service, respectively, in September, 1964; and how many honours students in mathematics are likely to graduate this summer.
    Mr. Hogg: To maintain the present proportions of honours graduates in mathematics in the teaching force at secondary schools for which the local authorities are responsible, it will be necessary to recruit about 500 in 1964. One-fifth to one-quarter of these are likely to be graduates of the current year. The Government service is estimated to need 90 honours graduates. About 850 students are expected to graduate with honours in mathematics this summer.
    Mr. Boyden: Are not the right hon. and learned Gentleman's estimates of the number of graduates coming forward far too modest? Does he not recognise that in the grammar schools there is a deficiency of about 2,500 honours graduates in mathematics?
    Mr. Hogg: If I had thought that they were too modest, I would not have given them.
    Mr. Boydenasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister of Science what is his estimate of the number of new mathematics teachers required in universities and colleges of advanced technology, and extra research mathematicians required in industry and
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    Government service, respectively, in September, 1964; and how many postgraduate students are likely to complete Ph.D.s in mathematics this summer.
    Mr. Hogg: The estimate for the colleges of advanced technology is 33. The universities have estimated that a 50 per cent. increase in their teaching staff in mathematics is needed between 1962 and 1965. The needs of the Government service and of industry for research mathematicians are not separately estimated.
    The estimate for new Ph.D.s in mathematics this summer is about 100.
    Mr. Boyden: Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman continuing his modesty? Is there not a need very much to increase the number of Ph.D.s in mathematics in the universities in order that the flow down to the schools can be very much more accelerated?
    Mr. Hogg: Whether or not my estimates are modest, I agree that there is a need to increase the number of mathematicians in all grades.
    Mr. Ross: Just as a matter of interest, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell me whether he is answering this Question in relation to the whole of the United Kingdom? Is he applying it to the needs of technical colleges, universities and schools in Scotland, and where does he get his information from?
    Mr. Gower: Wales as well?
    Mr. Hogg: I think that they are United Kingdom figures.
    Mr. Ross: Think?

  SCIENCE

    Scientific Policy and Expenditure
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will publish an annual White Paper on Scientific Policy and Expenditure, as recommended in paragraph 113 of the Trend Report.
    Mr. Hogg: This is an integral part of the reorganisation recommended by the Trend Report and follows from the changed position of the Minister and the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy. I

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    would therefore expect it to be implemented when the new organisation has been established. Up to now, of course, as the House knows, annual reports have been published by the Advisory Council. Research council reports will not be affected.
    Mr. Lubbock: Is there any reason why this recommendation should not be implemented now, before the new machinery is established?
    Mr. Hogg: I rather think that there is. This suggestion has been made before. The difficulty is that the Advisory Council, all the four research councils and the Atomic Energy Authority produce annual reports, which leaves very little for an annual report by the Minister.

    Reactors (Joint Appraisal)
    Mr. Lubbockasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science when the joint appraisal by the Generating Board and the Atomic Energy Authority of the merits of various new types of reactors is expected; and if it will be published.
    Mr. Hogg: I have nothing as yet to add to the Answers on this subject given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 27th February.
    Mr. Lubbock: The Answers given by the Prime Minister concern the Report of the Powell Committee, do they not? What I am asking in this Question is that the joint appraisal by the Central Electricity Generating Board and the Atomic Energy Authority which was presented to the Powell Committee and on which its recommendations to the Minister were based should be published as a separate report so that the House can appreciate the technicalities involved.
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, Sir, but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that he was considering the form in which the information should be given to the House. This would cover both the Report and the evidence before the Committee.
    Mr. Albu: Can the Minister confirm the rumours that the recommendation is for 5,000 megawatts of advanced gas-cooled reactors, but that the Central
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    Electricity Generating Board has insisted on competitive tendering for this and for the American boiling water reactor? If this is so, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that it is time that the results of this inquiry were published so that the very serious insecurity in the industry and throughout the Atomic Energy Authority can be ended?
    Mr. Hogg: It is very desirable that there should be full ventilation of the subject in public.
    Mr. Lubbock: Following on the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), supposing that it is some time before a decision is taken on the next generation of reactors, will the Minister consider placing an order for another station of the Magnox type in order that the consortia can be given enough work to keep it going?
    Mr. Hogg: The hon. Member will remember that the placing of orders for full-scale reactors as distinct from research and pilot-scale reactors is a matter for the Central Electricity Generating Board, and questions relating to them should be put to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power.

    Atomic Energy Authority (Naval Architects)
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science the numbers of naval architects attached to the Atomic Energy Authority.
    Mr. Hogg: The research association design team seconded to the Authority includes two naval architects. This team also receives technical support from industry in the preparation of designs and has the assistance of other experienced naval architects and marine engineers as required.
    Mr. Wainwright: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that we have sufficient naval architects attached to the Atomic Energy Authority? What intentions does his Department have to increase the numbers because of the Polaris submarines that we are building? Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider proposals for a nuclear surface vessel instead of one of

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    the Polaris vessels, to ensure that we are not left behind in this race?
    Mr. Hogg: Those are three rather different questions. The two naval architects to whom the Answer relates are engaged in preparing preliminary specifications and investigating special construction features required for nuclear ships. They are part of a team consisting of four marine engineers and two naval architects and they are concerned with surface nuclear ships. I do not think that I am responsible for the construction of nuclear submarines. The third part of the hon. Member's supplementary question escapes me.
    Sir L. Ropner: Is it not the Minister of Transport who is primarily responsible for the design of atomic propulsion for the mercantile marine?
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, Sir. That would be so if one proceeded to the extent of a full-scale vessel, but the Atomic Energy Authority is concerned with research into the necessary reactors. It is reasonable in those circumstances that the British Shipbuilding Research Association, for which I am answerable, should have seconded two naval architects to the Atomic Energy Authority.

    Diesel Exhaust Fumes
    Sir R. Russellasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science what consideration has been given by the Medical Research Council to the harmful effects of benzpyrene in the fumes emitted by diesel engines.
    Mr. Hogg: The Council has for many years carried out research into the possible effects on health of diesel exhaust fumes, including their benzpyrene content. There is at present no evidence to suggest that such fumes are a specific health hazard.
    Sir R. Russell: Is not this chemical the same as is present in cigarette smoke? As cigarette smoking has been condemned as a possible cause of cancer and as this chemical is present in far greater concentration in diesel fumes, should not a similar kind of warning be issued about it?
    Mr. Hogg: The relationship between cigarette smoking and lung cancer is well established, but it is not established in
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    relation to cigarette smoking which of the possible carcinogens causes the cancer. As far as I know, the concentration in diesel fumes, as and when they are ingested in the atmosphere, is nothing like as great.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: Nevertheless, does my right hon. and learned Friend understand that quite a number of medical experts believe that diesel fumes are a contributory cause towards lung cancer, particularly in built-up areas? In view of the seriousness of this matter, will he ask the Medical Research Council to look further into it?
    Mr. Hogg: My hon. Friend should distinguish two or three separate issues. The first is whether air pollution causes lung cancer. The answer is almost certainly "Yes", just as with greater certainty cigarette smoking does. That diesel fumes in particular out of the various and many components of air pollution in cities cause lung cancer is a much more questionable proposition. Indeed, I am told that the exhaust of an ordinary petrol engine is much more likely to be suspect.

    Perceptive Deafness
    Mr. Pavittasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will make available, in the House of Commons Library, information concerning the work of the Medical Research Council into problems of perceptive deafness.
    Mr. Hogg: As I informed the hon. Member on 11th February, studies relating to the problem of perceptive deafness form part of the Council's general programme of research on deafness. Summaries of this are published in the Council's Annual Report to Parliament, which is available in the Library.
    I am arranging for the Medical Research Council to send the hon. Member a fuller explanatory note on its work in this field.
    Mr. Pavitt: In thanking the Minister for the facilities which he is placing at my disposal, may I ask whether he is aware of the increasing need for further studies in the management of perceptive deafness in old people in view of the

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    larger number of old people who will be facing this problem in the next 10 years?
    Mr. Hogg: The Council has two units devoted entirely to research on otological problems. This represents the Council's recognition of the truth of what the hon. Member has said.

    Meat Research
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science by what methods the Meat Research Institute conveys its scientific knowledge of quality beef production to the farmers themselves.
    Mr. Hogg: The results of the meat research undertaken at the Low Temperature Research Station are published in scientific journals. Articles in more popular form appear in the trade and agricultural Press and in the Station's Annual Report. In addition, the Agricultural Advisory Services will reflect the results of this research in their advice to farmers.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the production of quality beef is of great importance to farmers' incomes? Is he aware that although it may not be easy to bring home to farmers themselves the results of the Meat Research Institutes experiments, that would nevertheless be a great help to farmers, particularly in regard to the production of a more uniform quality of beef?
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, Sir. I think, however, that the ordinary channels for communicating this to farmers, apart from the journals which I have mentioned, should be the Agricultural Advisory Service.

    Underground Nuclear Explosions (Detection)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will make a statement on new techniques recently developed for the detection of underground nuclear test explosions.
    Mr. Hogg: No, Sir. There have been no recent developments in the technique of detecting and identifying underground nuclear explosions of sufficient signifi-
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    cance which would call for a separate statement by the Government.
    The Atomic Energy Authority is preparing for publication an account of the relevant scientific work on seismic research undertaken in this country.
    Mr. Allaun: Will the Minister confirm that there have been developments at Aldermaston which would make it possible now to detect all underground explosions except those so small as to be of no significance militarily?
    Mr. Hogg: No, Sir. I have seen reports in the Press to that effect, but I am informed that they are misleading.

    Marine Nuclear Propulsion
    Mr. Albuasked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will make a statement about the future of the development of marine nuclear propulsion by the Atomic Energy Authority.
    Mr. Hogg: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) on 28th January.
    Mr. Albu: The Parliamentary Secretary said in another place that the integral boiling water reactor has been abandoned because it entailed a long-term development programme for fuel elements. Does this not imply that such factors do not apply to the other system? Does not the reply given in another place mean that the Government have given up the idea of developing a nuclear-powered ship in the foreseeable future?
    Mr. Hogg: The answer to the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is, "No". The Government have not taken a decision on that matter. The position regarding the integral boiling water reactor is as stated by the Parliamentary Secretary. Our work on the Vulcain and an associated type of reactor continues.
    Dame Irene Ward: Since the Americans have gone off the "Savannah" and the Admiralty seems to have gone off a British reactor, can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the Government have gone on with the development of a nuclear reactor for marine propulsion? What active operation is to

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    take place to that we get on with the job and let Britain take the lead?
    Mr. Hogg: The Americans are, think, less keen on the "Savannah". The Admiralty is concerned with a different type of reactor than that to which the Question refers. The supplementary question about a Government decision on the development of a ship is not for me but it will be a decision for the Government when it comes.
    Mr. Crossman: There is considerable alarm about these researches. They began in 1961 and already about£3½ million has been spent on them. The total is due to reach £5 million by the end of the year. Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman really nothing to say about the expenditure of all that money? Cannot he give some information?
    Mr. Hogg: Full information on what the money has been spent on has been available, The experiments on Vulcain have technically been very successful but whether or not, as a matter of commercial judgment, we should develop a nuclear ship out of the reactor experiments which have so far been successful is not a question to be addressed to me.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Income Tax
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what Income Tax is paid by three retired couples whose gross incomes, consisting only of National Insurance and other pensions, are £520, £560, and £600 per annum, respectively.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Alan Green): None; not more than £18; and not more than £34, assuming of course one or other of them has reached the age of 65.
    Mr. Ridley: Does not my hon. Friend think that it is a regressive form of taxation which takes £34 out of a slice of £80 at this level of income? Without asking him to anticipate his right hon. Friend's Budget statement, may I ask him to have another look at this?
    Mr. Green: Of course I sympathise with elderly taxpayers, as with all taxpayers, but I am grateful to my hon.
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    Friend for realising that I cannot possibly comment on the substance of his question
    Mr. Oramasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that errors and misunderstandings about their liability for Income Tax frequently arise in the case of people retiring from work, particularly in the first year and if they take up part-time work; and if he will issue instructions to officers of the Inland Revenue to be careful in making explanations to such people so as to avoid unnecessary anxiety for them.
    Mr. Green: I know that changes of this kind in a taxpayer's circumstances sometimes give rise to difficulties. Anyone in doubt about his position should consult his tax office as soon as possible after retirement, when the Revenue will do its best to explain matters to him.
    Mr. Oram: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I personally have come across four or five such cases in my constituency in recent weeks—some errors on the part of the Inland Revenue and others a lack of suitable explanation of the situation? Cannot something be done to make sure that these misunderstandings do not arise?
    Mr. Green: The hon. Member has been in correspondence with me about this. When there has been a mistake on the part of the Inland Revenue, it is very much regretted and, I hope, proper steps are taken to put it right. Notes accompany Income Tax returns and draw the attention of pensioners to the need to inform the tax office when they become entitled to receive a pension. However, if I can find other means to make the situation even clearer, I will willingly adopt them.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Since this genuine grievance has been drawn to the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would not the simplest way of dealing with it be to apply to it the remedy applied to the legal profession and the judiciary—that the last year's earnings before retirement are entirely tax-free, one of the most munificent benefactions which the House has ever bestowed on any part of the British electorate? Will the Government consider applying a similar principle to ordinary people who are being mulcted of tax which they ought not to pay?
    Mr. Green: There is no question of people being mulcted of tax which they ought not to pay. If such cases arise, the Inland Revenue does its best to put things right. The rest of that supplementary question does not call for an answer from me now.

    Central and Local Government
    Mr. Owenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to present to the House the report on the financial relationships between central and local government.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Reginald Maudling): It is too early to say.
    Mr. Owen: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the increasing burden of rates and the growing concern of local authorities? Will he not recognise that this is a matter which merits an urgent report to the House?
    Mr. Maudling: I agree that the matter is very important. The rising level of expenditure, on education in particular, is of course a burden, as it must be, on both the taxpayer and the ratepayer. However, any consideration involving allocations between the two is complex and should not be rushed.

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why girls' low-heeled shoes above size three are to be excluded from Purchase Tax exemption.
    Mr. Maudling: Because increasing quantities of shoes of the types affected were being bought for adult wear.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is not this a retrograde step? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this tax has been an unfair burden on parents of large children? Does not the Treasury regard it in that way? Would it not be better, to avoid confusion, to withdraw the tax on footwear altogether?
    Mr. Maudling: It is always simpler to abolish taxation, but the trouble is that one still has to get the money. When giving special treatment to children's things, one often finds that it is abused by people buying what is de-
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    signed for children for wear by adults. I agree that it is not easy, but this is the right step to take now.
    Mr. Vane: Will my right hon. Friend look at this again? It is not just parents of children with large feet who are concerned, but also the manufacturers of shoes, because over the years the distinction between shoes which bear Purchase Tax and shoes which do not has been very complicated. In order to make it work smoothly, it should be simplified.
    Mr. Maudling: I agree that it is not easy and I will gladly consider any evidence from my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member.
    Mrs. Slater: As the tendency is for children to be larger and therefore to have larger feet, and as most of the shoes for school children are so designed that an adult would not want to wear them, would it not be better in the interests of the parents of these children to take this tax off shoes of this kind?
    Mr. Maudling: There may be a tendency for children's feet to be bigger, but the tendency for adults to buy shoes which are supposed to be children's shoes grows rather more rapidly.
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will end the Purchase Tax placed on infant girls' nursery sets, as similar gifts for boys are excluded from such a tax.
    Mr. Maudling: No distinction is made for purchase tax purposes between infants' play outfits for girls and those for boys.
    If the hon. Member will let me have details of the maker of the outfits he has in mind I will have the suggested differentiation investigated.
    Mr. Dempsey: May I ask the Chancellor whether he is aware that I have seen an invoice showing that children's nursery sets are taxed at 25 per cent., whereas Western outfits, guns and tomahawks, are free of Purchase Tax? Does not that paradox suggest that something should be done to eliminate the anomaly to try to protect even at an early stage a noble profession, the nursing profession?
    Mr. Maudling: I must declare a personal interest, as a fairly frequent purchaser of both types. If the hon. Gentleman sends me the evidence, I shall be very glad to look into it.

    The Groat
    Mr. Turtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will reintroduce the groat.
    Mr. Maudling: No, Sir.
    Mr. Turton: Now that London Transport has raised the basic fare from 3d. to 4d. and rural transport is doing the same, would not my right hon. Friend consider the replacement of the 3d. bit by the 4d. piece, which was in circulation for more than 330 years and whose use would be a convenience to the traveller and an economy to the Royal Mint?
    Mr. Maudling: This is an interesting suggestion which I have considered with the Mint. On the whole, it is a bad thing to have a proliferation of coins. Pennies and 3d. bits would still be used and the introduction of the groat would not get rid of the 3d. bit. I can console my right hon. Friend by saying that groats minted since 1817 are still legal tender.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will be greeted with immense satisfaction by all those who are firmly convinced that if he replaced 3d. bits by groats, the cost of living would go up by at least 33⅓ per cent. and that we have had enough of the rising cost of living under the present Administration to last us for a long time to come?
    Mr. Maudling: As always, I would not accept the premises of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, but I hope that all Treasury answers are received with great satisfaction.

    Customs (Seizure of Publications)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what instructions he has issued to Her Majesty's Customs officers regarding the seizure from travellers of copies of publications held to be obscene under Section 2 or 3 of the Obscene Publications Act, 1959.
    Mr. Maudling: Customs officers are instructed not to ask travellers whether they have obscene books with them, but if books which appear to be obscene are found in baggage, then, like other prohibited articles, they are detained or seized. The Customs naturally have regard to previous decisions of the Courts, whether given under the Customs Acts or in relation to the Obscene Publications Act, 1959.
    Mr. Digby: Does not my right hon. Friend think that we are getting into a rather illogical position when the police are seizing books printed here while plenty more seem to be coming in from outside?
    Mr. Maudling: The law is a little different between what the Customs are empowered and in duty bound to do, and what the courts determine. I agree that it would be quite illogical to prevent the import of books which could be freely circulated here. In general, my hon. Friend will find that Customs officers in their decisions keep in line with the recent trend of decisions in the courts.

    Cameras (Import duty)
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he approved the cuts in camera import duty without any estimate of the loss to the Revenue which will result.
    Mr. Green: No reduction of duty has been approved, or recommended by the Board of Trade.

    Government Contracts (Technical Cost Officers)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will instruct all Government Departments to make the placing of Government contracts conditional on the contractor allowing freedom of access to the appropriate Minister's technical cost officers at all stages in the design and production process.
    Mr. Green: No, Sir.
    Mr. Dalyell: Why should negotiators operating on behalf of the Ministry have to negotiate in ignorance of facts known to the contractors?
    Mr. Green: That is a somewhat surprising suggestion. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case in mind, I should like notice of it. The negotiations are not undertaken in ignorance of the facts.
    Mr. Dalyell: Would the hon. Gentleman care to repeat that in the case of Bloodhound I?
    Mr. Green: I think the hon. Gentleman knows that this matter is now under investigation, and I think that it would be unwise to comment on it.

    Stationery Office Publications
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what margin is allowed to retailers who sell the publications of Her Majesty's Stationery Office.
    Mr. Green: The standard discount allowed to retailers who buy their supplies of Government publications direct from Her Majesty's Stationery Office is 25 per cent.; but 33⅓ per cent. is allowed on a small number of the more popular titles.
    Mr. Digby: Is not that a considerable rate of discount, and is it not the fact that it is on information like that that the Government are proceeding with the Resale Prices Bill? It it right that the Government should demand such a large rate of discount?
    Mr. Green: It is not a case of the Government demanding it. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, the Government are conceding it to retailers. I am sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate that there is no necessary connection between allowing a discount and insisting on resale price being maintained.
    Mr. Bence: Are these books provided to retailers on a "sale or return" basis?
    Mr. Green: I think that I would want notice of that question.
    Mr. Milne: Does not the hon. Gentleman consider that the Answer that he has just given about margins of profit strengthens the case that we have presented to him for the opening of a retail branch of Her Majesty's Stationery Office in Newcastle?
    Mr. Green: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's interest in this matter, and I promise him that his interest has not been lost sight of.

    Banknotes, Scotland
    Mr. Hannanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that eight different types of £5 banknotes, some of them very similar in size and colouring to £1 notes, are in use in Scotland, and are causing inconvenience and disputes among the public, shopkeepers and business houses; and if he will introduce legislation to remedy this.
    Mr. Maudling: I do not think that such legislation would be appropriate.
    Mr. Hannan: While agreeing, on reflection, that legislation is not necessary, may I nevertheless ask the Chancellor whether he is aware that the chairman of the Glasgow Savings Bank, at the annual meeting, was highly critical of the fact that 20 notes—not eight as in my Question—of 11 different sizes —£1 and £5 notes—are being circulated in Scotland, leading to wasteful man-hours in the bank? Will the Chancellor consider consulting the Joint Stock Banks and the Bank of England to try to come to an amicable agreement after their long-drawn-out talks in this matter?
    Mr. Maudling: This is a familiar problem, but the Scottish banks have had the right to issue notes ever since 1845, and I think that I should be a bold man if I tried to interfere with it now.

  MINISTERS
  Mr. Loughlinasked the Prime Minister what conditions he imposes for the acceptance of Ministerial office with regard to the continued ownership of shares in firms or companies during the period in which the Minister continues to hold office.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): The directions given to Ministers on these and similar matters were circulated in full in the OFFICIAL REPORT on 28th January, 1960. As was stated in paragraphs 7 and 8, a Minister

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  is expected to divest himself of a controlling holding in any undertaking if there is any danger of a conflict between his private interests and public duty; and there may be exceptional cases where, even though the Minister has not a controlling holding, a danger of a conflict is created by the holding of particular shares in concerns closely associated with his own Department, and where the Minister should divest himself of that holding.
  Mr. Loughlin: I am very grateful to the Prime Minister for informing the House of the general position. Will he consider cases in which his Ministers hold shares in companies which benefit from the policies pursued by the Department of which the Minister concerned has an oversight so that there can be no question that public and private interests clash in this respect?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think that it is a Minister's duty, if he has any doubt about his position, to consult the Prime Minister.

  NORTH-EAST
  Mr. Pentlandasked the Prime Minister what correspondence he has received from the Town Clerk of the City and County of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and the Secretary of the North-East Federation of Trades Councils, regarding the economic and unemployment problems of the North-East region; and if he will state the nature of his reply.
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister what reply he has sent to the representations of the North-East trades councils and the Newcastle Corporation on the subject of unemployment in the North-East.
  Mr. Fernyhoughasked the Prime Minister what was the nature of the reply he sent to the letters recently received by him from the Town Clerk of the City and County Borough of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and the Secretary of the North-East Federation of Trades Councils regarding the economic and social problems of the area.
  The Prime Minister: I have acknowledged the receipt of these communica-
  246
  tions and have informed the Town Clerk of Newcastle-upon-Tyne that the terms of the resolution he forwarded have been noted. The points in it have in fact been dealt with fully in this House.
  Mr. Pentland: Will the Prime Minister tell us what immediate action he intends to take to overcome the dissatisfaction that was expressed in this correspondence by local authorities and the trade unions about the Government's plan for the North-East? Secondly, will the Prime Minister give the House a categorical assurance that, despite the country's economic and financial difficulties, the Government will not abolish the concessions that were granted to the development districts in the Budget of 1963? May we have that assurance?
  The Prime Minister: If any further consultations are required between the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade and the local authorities in the North-East, I know that my right hon. Friend will be only too glad to have them.
  As to what the measures have achieved up to now, as the hon. Gentleman knows I was in the North-East only a short time ago. I learnt that last year unemployment dropped by 30,000, and the hon. Gentleman will be glad to hear that the unemployment figure for February dropped from 4·3 to 4·1 per cent. That shows that we have a long way to go, but the process has begun.
  Mr. Shinwell: When the right hon. Gentleman paid his recent visit to the North-East, did he make actual contact with the 53,000 unemployed in that area, or with the thousands who are still living in slums? In view of his recent statement in the House that his purpose in travelling around the country was to eliminate contamination, was the right hon. Gentleman afraid of being contaminated?
  The Prime Minister: I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that my primary purpose in going to the North-East was a public-speaking engagement—and I am glad that they took it in—but it was also to see some industries. I was not on that occasion visiting the unemployed or the regional organisations. Perhaps on another occasion I shall do so.
  Mr. Fernyhough: Does not the Prime Minister realise that although there may have been a reduction of 30,000 in the number of unemployed, the figure was still higher than it had been in any comparable post-war period, and that that is the big grumble of the North-East?
  In those circumstances, will the Prime Minister give us a firm assurance that whatever economic and financial difficulties may overtake the present Administration, the pledges which have been made about increasing the social investment programme in the North-East will be honoured, irrespective of anything else?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. The whole purpose of our regional policy is to attract investment to the North-East and to bring employment to that area.
  Mr. Pentland: On a point of order——
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Montgomery.
  Mr. Pentland: As the Prime Minister deliberately evaded the second part—[interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot hear the point of order.
  Mr. Pentland: As the Prime Minister did not answer the second part of my supplementary question, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
  Mr. Montgomery: Mr. Speaker, as you called me to ask a supplementary question, am I now entitled to ask it?
  Mr. Speaker: Quite frankly, I was not sure what the precise sequence of time was. I was trying to get somebody else to help me with it. I think that it was so essentially simultaneous that I must in the circumstances allow the notice.
  Mr. Bourne-Arton: They are running away.
  Later:
  Dame Irene Ward: On a point of order. May I ask for your guidance—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—it is not for you to say! May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker? You have ruled on many occasions that if you have called a Member by name he is entitled
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  to ask a supplementary question. Hon. Members on this side of the House thought we heard you call the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Montgomery). Are you changing the procedure of the House?
  Mr. Speaker: I am not changing anything. I had to decide a question of fact whether the hon. Member on my left claimed his point of order, to give notice, before I called the hon. Member on my right. I certainly called him, but I thought that the sound of the hon. Member in my left ear came to me first. It is a very nice point of time. If I am wrong, I am sorry, but I must decide these matters.

  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS (MEETING)
  Mr. Bottomleyasked the Prime Minister if he will now make a statement on a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to what I told the House on 21st January.
  Mr. Bottomley: In view of the fact that there has not been a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers since the very unsatisfactory meeting in September, 1962, does not the Prime Minister think that it is time that they had another meeting? Is not he aware that there are problems of trade and defence, besides the problems of Malaysia, East Africa, Southern Rhodesia and Cyprus? These are all very important matters. They are Commonwealth matters, and ought to be considered by Commonwealth Prime Ministers.
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows that all the Commonwealth Prime Ministers have to agree before we can settle a time for a Prime Ministers' meeting, but if the right hon. Gentleman would like me to do so, I will keep in touch with him on the matter.
  Mr. Bottomley: May I assume from that reply that consultations are taking place, and that in due course there will be a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers?
  The Prime Minister: That is the right hon. Gentleman's conclusion, but when I have anything to report I shall do so directly to the House.

  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES
  Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider the operation of the nationalised industries, with particular reference to the railways and the coal-mining industry.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Wyatt: Does not the Prime Minister remember that in the debate on the Address in this House in November, 1950, he said that the nationalisation of —[Interruption.]—hon. Members opposite ought to want to know what the Prime Minister said. Cannot he remember that on that occasion he said that the nationalisation of coal and the railways had been a great mistake? He went on to say:
  "We should like to see 100 per cent. private enterprise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1950; Vol. 480, c. 859.]
  As he believes very much in straight talking, will he tell us now whether he thinks that he was making a fool of himself on that occasion, or whether, if he wins the election, he proposes to introduce denationalisation by the back door?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has succeeded in introducing me by the back door—[Interruption.]—in more ways than one. I think that hon. Members opposite were surprised to see me here. Now the hon. Member asks me about a speech I made in 1950. I should like notice of that. But today he asks me to set up new machinery for considering the operation of nationalised industries. Whatever I said in 1950, the industries have been nationalised, and the setting up of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries was the right procedure to adopt.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when he was here before he made a famous speech saying that we could help to solve the problem of unemployment among the miners by bringing them down to London as domestic servants? Will he not be man
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  enough to admit that nationalisation in Scotland has been a great success, and that it is going from strength to strength?
  The Prime Minister: I never did approve of nationalisation, but when nationalisation was made the law I naturally respected the law. I do not recollect the speech to which the hon. Member refers, but I will read his book and see whether he has included it.

  CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (SPEECH)
  Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Stockport on 21st February about economic matters represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Wyatt: Does the Prime Minister realise that in that speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer attributed the adverse nature of our February trade figures to the stocking up of raw materials, whereas the real reason was that the import of manufactured goods had increased by nearly twice? Will not he now address himself seriously to the problem of our balance of payments position and stop making madly optimistic speeches in order to try to win the election?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has the wrong month and the wrong facts. Perhaps I may give him the general position. About 15 per cent. of our total imports are manufactured goods, but imports of industrial—[Interruption.]—I am giving the general position. I was going to say that the general position—[Interruption.]—if the right hon. Member will listen for a moment he will understand what I am saying. The general position is that 15 per cent. of our total imports are manufactured goods, whereas imports of industrial materials account for about 40 per cent. of that. In the months from November to January imports of industrial materials rose by 9 per cent., so that the hon. Member is not accurate. Last week I advised him to wait for the February figures. This week I strongly advise him to wait for the February figures.
  Mr. H. Wilson: But since we have expressed our concern about the three months' figures—and not merely what we all hope is a temporary fall in exports in one month—does not the Prime Minister agree that the Board of Trade last week said that in recent months the percentage increase in manufactured goods has actually been higher than the percentage increase in raw materials? That is something that he missed from his answer. Since my hon. Friend in any case was talking about our balance of payments, will the Prime Minister, having said that our economy has seldom been stronger, tell us whether our balance of payments is now running at the £300 million or £400 million surplus that we need, or whether it has any surplus at all?
  The Prime Minister: We had better wait for the next balance of payments —[Interruption.]—hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite would be much wiser to wait for the figures. I have warned them several times that they will regret it.
  Sir N. Hulbert: Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister realise that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a most admirable speech in my constituency and that it was appreciated not only throughout the County Borough of Stockport, but throughout the whole country?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, but when the right hon. Gentleman said that we must wait for the next month's figures I had just asked about the balance of payment figures, and assuming that the right hon. Gentleman does appreciate the difference between balance of payments and balance of trade—[HON MEMBERS: "Oh."]—is he not aware that they are not published monthly at all?
  The Prime Minister: Certainly. I do not know, then, why the right hon. Gentleman asked the question.

  SCOTTISH AFFAIRS
  Matter of the Brunton Report, being a matter relating exclusively to Scotland, referred to the Scottish Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Mr. Selwyn Lloyd.]

AGRICULTURAL NUISANCES
Mr. James Boyden: I beg to move,
That leave be given to introduce a Bill to remedy nuisances arising from the use of factory methods in agriculture.
The scope of my proposed Bill is rather more limited than was that introduced by the late Mr. John Dugdale on 23rd November, 1960, and which was supported by hon. Members on both sides of the House. It would also relate to a narrower front than the series of articles in the Observer dealing with the various aspects of this problem. The provisions of the Bill would be entirely directed to the planning and the amenity side of the problem. These methods employed in factory premises are very often not agricultural at all. They are biological and their use is quite inappropriate if the premises are sited near a town or a small village.
There is an economic incentive to place these factories on the edge of a village or a small town because the cost of bringing electricity and water, and making access roads, is cheaper. Therefore, there is an economic incentive to to put these factories in places which are most inappropriate. The type of factories which are causing a nuisance are broiler houses, premises connected with the intensive breeding of pigs, the intensive breeding of rabbits and the sort of store where beef cattle and calves are penned up and highly concentrated. Mink and other fur-bearing animals are treated in the same way and the whole process is continually growing. The result is that several sorts of nuisances are created with which it is impossible to deal under the provisions of the existing law.
At many of these premises the noise is continuous. The ventilating fans used in broiler houses have been described as making a noise which sounds like the droning of an outsize vacuum cleaner and it goes on all day and all night. I submit that this is a very serious matter for anyone who owns a house or a bungalow near premises from which this continuous noise is emitted.
When these premises are cleared out the smell is extremely unpleasant. Some are cleared out about once a year. The

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only means of disposal is by spreading the droppings over the adjoining fields and distance, therefore, becomes extremely important. Even if the droppings are removed more frequently, an extremely unpleasant smell is experienced by the occupants of houses in the neighbourhood while the operation is in progress.
Perhaps the worst feature is the infestation by flies and mice. When one poultry house, measuring 84 feet by 20 feet, was cleared out, 10,000 mice were killed during the operation. The owners of houses which are near to premises containing poultry have to keep windows shut in the summer and spray continuously against flies from the beginning of spring until the end of autumn. I am told that there is no scientific way to keep down the number of flies. Unfortunately, conditions which are good for the poultry are also good for the flies.
No particular connection has been established between the smells, the flies and health, but, obviously, there must be a serious deleterious effect from the presence of flies in these numbers. Anyone who has the misfortune to live in a house near one of these premises must suffer considerably from the various troubles which arise.
The purpose of my Bill is to amend Section 221 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, by giving the Minister of Housing and Local Government power to issue an order excepting these premises from the term "agricultural". At the same time, the provisions would be flexible so that new factory processes could be added to the definition from time to time. In this way new developments would be controlled. An applicant who wished to set up an agricultural factory of this description would have to apply for planning permission in the same way as it is necessary to apply for planning permission in respect of a house. He would have a right of appeal under the planning appeals machinery. It would not affect existing agricultural practices, at least not at once. It would not affect existing broiler houses and other premises. Nor would it affect the
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existing uses of land in this way, but only the use of other land.
The present position is quite ridiculous. Planning authorities control the elevation and position of a house or a bungalow in the narrowest detail. But permission must be obtained in respect of a large agricultural building only if it occupies an area of over 5,000 sq. ft. If it is 4,999 sq. ft. no permission is necessary. Factory buildings of this sort—broiler houses or large pigsties of just under 5,000 sq. ft.—are erected and placed at 100-yard intervals. Under the present law it is possible, two years later, for another of these buildings to be placed near to the existing buildings; so it is possible to erect a whole clutch of these poultry houses, within the provisions of the existing law, right on the doorstep of houses in a pleasant village or suburb.
I know that this is possible, because there are three of these kinds of buildings in a small town in my constituency and in two villages. It is necessary to see, in order to appreciate, the harmful effects caused by the presence of such premises. The local authorities take the greatest trouble to see that private houses are built properly and conform to standards of amenity and planning. But broiler houses and pigsties three times the size of a house, from which are emitted noises and smells and which harbour flies, may be erected to the detriment of the amenities in the area where they are built.
I therefore ask leave to introduce the Bill to remedy such nuisances.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Boyden, Mrs. Slater, Mr. Ainsley, Mr. C. Johnson, Mr. Pentland, Mr. Randall, and Mr. Woof.

AGRICULTURAL NUISANCES
Bill to remedy nuisances arising from the use of factory methods in agriculture, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 17th April, and to be printed. [Bill 105]

RESALE PRICES BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Minister it might be convenient to indicate the position about the selection of Amendments. The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) and other hon. Members is selected:
That the Bill be read a second time upon this day six months.
The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) is not selected:
That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which may threaten the livelihood of many small independent traders without attempting at the same time to deal with restrictive practices by large commercial monopolistic organisations and trade unions, which have a far more profound effect on the national economy.
3.41 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development and President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Edward Heath): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The purpose of the Bill is to prohibit the practice of resale price maintenance except where exemption has been granted by the Restrictive Practices Court. I hope that it will be convenient to the House to give something of the background to this Bill before coming to its exact provisions. I begin by putting the Bill into its proper perspective. It is one element, and an important element, in a comprehensive policy.
The object of this policy is to promote more competition throughout the economy. If we are to obtain a sustained and steady rate of growth, undoubtedly we must make the most efficient use of all our resources. This, in my view and the view of the Government, can best be obtained by increasing competition over a wide field. This is why it is essential now, at a time of expanding economy where the level of incomes is all-important and where industry should be cost-conscious, that prices need to be kept down. That is why, in my statement in the House on 15th January, I made it clear that our proposals go much wider than the present Bill. They cover the whole field of monopolies, mergers and restrictive
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practices in addition to resale price maintenance.
This is not a new element in the Government's approach. The various steps we are taking and planning follow on from the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, and they derive from the experience which we have had of it. The White Paper which was published last Thursday on these matters set out the Government's policy. Undoubtedly, there will be an opportunity, if the House so requires, to debate these matters at length. I do not therefore propose to deal with them today, except to say that there has been some comparison between the Bill and the proposals in the White Paper. Indeed, an Amendment on the Order Paper refers to that.
I emphasise to the House that the proposals in the White Paper are of major importance. The Government intend to ask Parliament for powers to strengthen the Monopolies Commission by the appointment of a registrar, increasing its size and widening its scope to include the investigation of mergers and commercial services. That is a major step. Secondly, we shall ask for power to give effect to all the recommendations of the Monopolies Commission where we decide that it is right so to do, even to the point of calling upon a monopoly to divest itself of interests. Finally, we would ask Parliament to approve proposals for making the 1956 Restrictive Trade Practices Act more effective.
These are major measures covering the whole field of monopoly, mergers and restrictive practices for which the Government will be asking considerable powers coupled with parliamentay safeguards. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), who, I understand, is to follow me, will not in any way underestimate the importance of the measures which are put forward in the White Paper. In scale, these measures and the powers required are very substantially greater than the action which is being taken by the Bill.
Mrs. Barbara Castle Mrs. Barbara Castle (Blackburn) rose——
Mr. Heath: Perhaps I may be allowed to set out the matter generally.

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All these measures, taken together, add to a further attack on a wide front on restrictions which stifle competition. We believe that they are necessary in the struggle to maintain stability of prices together with a high level of employment in an expanding economy. It is, of course, true that legislation alone cannot produce competition, but it can create conditions in which it is much more difficult for obstacles to competition to survive. Such legislation is now recognised as an essential element in present-day economic policy.
Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman has said something very important. Are we to understand from what he has said that the legislation against monopolies is to be introduced before the General Election?
Mr. Heath: The legislation is now being prepared and will be introduced by this Government directly after the General Election.
I hope that the influence of the changes we are proposing will spread far beyond their legal scope. They should help to change the whole climate of our economic life and enable us to get away from the atmosphere in industry and commerce in which sometimes keen competition is thought to be hardly respectable. The consumer and the nation can pay a heavy price for comfortable devices which raise industrial costs. We intend to create a much sharper and more bracing environment.
The number of people employed today in distributive processes is growing faster than the number in manufacturing industry. We are now making great demands upon our industry. It is only right that we should also look to the distributive services for a similar response. It is just as essential to have increasing productivity and a high degree of efficiency in distribution as it is in production.
I turn now to the nature of resale price maintenance. This is a complex subject on which there has been a great deal of debate and concern for many years. Let me, first, define it. It is a practice whereby a manufacturer determines the price at which the wholesaler or retailer, or both, sells his goods. The manufacturer determines the price at which that happens. This means that, however efficient he is, a shopkeeper, large or small, cannot pass on the results
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of his efficiency to the consumer by a reduction in price. It follows that there is no incentive to be efficient in this form. It means that there is less pressure on manufacturers to be more competitive and I to reduce their prices.
I shall now deal with its scale. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research recorded that, in 1938, very approximately 30 per cent. of consumer expenditure on goods went on price-maintained articles. Today, the best estimate we can make is that it covers about 40 per cent. of consumer expenditure on goods, perhaps as much as £5,000 million every year. Resale price maintenance is practised by most manufacturers of branded goods outside the food trades. I have seen a number of suggestions that there is no need for Government action because the resale price maintenance system was already disintegrating. In fact, our evidence is that the system is still firmly entrenched.
In recent years it has broken down completely in foods and groceries. Despite this, the proportion spent on price-maintained goods is higher today than it was before the war. I take an example of its operation. There may be two distributors in the chain between the manufacturer and the retailer, but the manufacturer may fix the ceiling price of his goods at each stage of distribution.
Of course, he is fixing, at the same time, the margin which each distributor is allowed to retain; thus all retailers will charge the same price for that manufacturer's goods and so the result is precisely the same as a price-fixing agreement between the retailers. In other words, all price competition is ruled out.
I would like to make one point plain. This, of course, is quite different from the question of the prices which a manufacturer may himself charge for his products when he himself sells them. The price at which the manufacturer sells his goods is something quite separate and we are not, in this legislation, attempting to determine this in any way. That must be left to the forces of competition and the manufacturer's own judgment. [Interruption.] I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen opposite have misunderstood what I am saying, or whether they have in mind the thought that there should be strict control for every item a manufacturer sells.

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I am saying that the first price at which the manufacturer sells he fixes for himself. Nor are we in any way removing a manufacturer's right to fix maximum prices, if he so desires. Similarly, however, we think it right that a retailer should, in general, have the right to decide what price he should charge to his customer, and, certainly, the customer should not be required to pay a retailer more for his services than that retailer thinks necessary.
A number of inquiries have been held as a result of the concern expressed on this matter by Governments in this and other countries and it might be of help to hon. Members if I mention some of the facts. First, there is the Report of the Lloyd Jacob Committee, in 1949—and it must be remembered that that Committee met at a time of scarcity and shortage and, perhaps, its thoughts were coloured by that. Collective enforcement of resale price maintenance was then a normal and lawful commercial practice. It was condemned in unqualified terms by that Committee and the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. 1956, which was introduced by my right hon. Friend who is now Minister of Defence, made collective enforcement unlawful.
It has been suggested that the Lloyd Jacob Committee's conclusions on individual resale price maintenance endorse the arguments of those who are opposed to legislation on the lines of this Bill. I suggest to the House that that is not so. The Lloyd Jacob Committee certainly concluded that if collective enforcement were banned, individual manufacturers could be left free to enforce resale prices for their own branded goods, but this was because they also believed—and this is important and I will quote from the Report—that it would be feasible to devise safeguards to ensure that individual resale price maintenance did not
"…obstruct the development of particular methods of trading…impede the distribution by another manufacturer of competitive goods or…deprive the public of the benefits of improvements in distribution. Public policy requires adequate distribution of goods with provision for such price reductions as are justified by low-cost distribution or by a regular policy of distributing surplus profit to the customer".
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That was a clear and firm reservation, made in 1949, by the Lloyd Jacob Committee, in its Report. As a result of it, consultations were held at that time with representatives of industry and commerce about these provisos and the result of the consultations made it quite clear that satisfactory safeguards of this kind could not be devised. By Section 24 of the 1956 Act collective resale price maintenance became unlawful and, at the same time, the individual enforcement of resale price conditions by a supplier was facilitated by Section 25, which gave suppliers the right, in certain circumstances, to take action against traders with whom they had no contractual relationship.
In moving the Second Reading of what was then the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence emphasised that a first step was being taken in a complex sphere in which no earlier Government had made any progress. He indicated that the provisions on resale price maintenance could not be regarded as a last step. Indeed, experience of the operation of the 1956 Act showed very soon that the move from collective to individual enforcement made comparatively little difference to the economic effects of the resale price maintenance system, and that those who said that by the removal of collective enforcement it would wither away were shown not to have been justified in their expectations.
So we come to the present position. It is now apparent that there is no halfway house. The choice is as simple as this. We can permit resale price maintenance to go on in every case, with all that it entails in the way of higher costs, a less efficient distributive system and less opportunity for consumers' preferences to influence supply, or we can provide for price competition, and facilitate the introduction of new and improved methods of distribution by ending resale price maintenance, except when it can be shown that it helps the consumer and is not contrary to the public interest. That is really the alternative with which we are faced.
The Government have given very careful consideration to this matter and have decided, in the context of modernisation

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and the essential development of a competitive economy, that the arguments in favour of ending resale price maintenance, with the safeguards set out in the Bill, are conclusive. At a time when our effort is being devoted to getting goods to the ultimate purchaser as economically and as cheaply as possible, how can we continue to sanction a system under which a man can be taken to court for lowering his prices?
In 1958, the Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes—the Cohen Committee—drew attention to this anomaly and suggested that the law should be reconsidered. Since then the Government have undertaken an extensive fact-finding inquiry. We collected information in confidence from representatives of commerce, industry, trade unions and consumer organisations. In all, evidence came from 74 associations. Over 7,000 questionnaires were distributed, which were returned by about 2,000 retailers, 150 wholesalers and 350 manufacturers. We have also made inquiries about conditions in other countries, in particular Canada, France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the United States.
These inquiries showed that in those countries the stimulus to competition had had beneficial effects on prices and methods of distribution. They showed, moreover, that the ill consequences which the genuine supporters of resale price maintenance had feared, did not follow. Experience shows that consumers in those countries have welcomed greater freedom to "shop around" for the combination of service, quality and price which they want.
As between two countries, or one country at different times, it is virtually impossible to say that this or that change is due to a particular factor. [Interruption.] I think that the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) will have an opportunity to speak later. I was saying that if one is examining the experience of a number of countries it is not possible to say that a particular change is due to a particular factor, since many factors are involved. For instance, in Sweden, since the end of resale price maintenance, prices have risen a little faster than in the United Kingdom. That is perfectly true but, on the other hand, Swedish wages in the same period have
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gone up twice as fast as ours, so the figures are, indeed, complex when making this sort of comparison.
An interesting example has come from studies made in the United States of comparative prices in States which permit resale price maintenance and those which do not. When one is considering a country in which the other factors are fairly equal over the whole sphere, but where resale price maintenance is allowed in some States and not in others, it is possible to draw conclusions; and some of those which have been drawn are extremely interesting. Some of them were put forward by the United States Assistant Attorney-General, Mr. Orrick, in a speech about a month ago before the Senate Committee of Commerce on the so-called "Quality Stabilisation Bill"—a euphemism for resale price maintenance.
Mr. Orrick said that resale price maintenance was being used to step up selling prices of certain well known products ranging from fountain pens to household electrical goods by amounts ranging up to as much as 40 per cent. in the case of a well-known fountain pen. He drew attention to a special study of the prices consumers were paying for spirits in Washington, D.C., where resale price maintenance has never been allowed, and in New York. New Yorkers are paying between 20 per cent., 30 per cent., and in one case 40 per cent., more than the inhabitants of Washington.
This conclusion is also borne out by the results of a research study which compared prices of electrical household goods in Washington with prices in Baltimore and Richmond before and after these two towns abandoned resale price maintenance. Before they did so, prices were 35 per cent. and 40 per cent. higher than in Washington. When they ended it, the prices in Baltimore and Richmond fell over a wide field.
If we are to discuss specific examples, and many may be put forward in this debate——
Mr. W. E. Padley: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Heath: No, not on this point—we should endeavour to take comparable circumstances for figures which are quoted about the effect.
Mr. Padley Mr. Padley rose——
Mr. Heath: It has been said that the American Congress is about to make r.p.m. legal across the whole country, but I think that we should note that the President of the United States has advised Congress to—
"resist new steps to legalise price fixing".
If we want more experience from other countries, in Norway, Sweden and Denmark the abolition of resale price maintenance is now taken for granted. Indeed, there is pressure in Denmark to remove price maintenance on two of the items which have previously been exempted.
So, after studying that experience, I would like to explain why we have reached the conclusion that resale price maintenance should be prohibited.
Mr. Richard Marsh Mr. Richard Marsh (Greenwich) rose——
Mr. Heath: I am sorry, but I cannot give way.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: If the Minister does not give way, hon. Members must desist.
Mr. Marsh Mr. Marsh rose——
Mr. Heath: No. This is a very complex subject and I am endeavouring to develop the argument dealing with each of its aspects.
Miss Margaret Herbison Miss Margaret Herbison (Lanarkshire, North) rose——
Mr. Heath: If there is more than one hon. Member on his or her feet, it is very difficult for me to decide to which one I should give way. I give way to the hon. Lady.
Miss Herbison: I thank the Minister for giving way. The right hon. Gentleman has been giving us details of a great many comparisons and studies which have been made in other countries. During those studies was anything done to find out what happened even to the most efficient small shopkeeper and whether, once the small shopkeepers were put out of business, the big monopolies did not hold the housewives to ransom and, indeed, cause the rise in prices which the Minister says was due to higher wages?
Mr. Heath: Of course there has been study of the effects on the retail distribu-
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tion system in other countries. I said earlier that the apprehensions which have been expressed of the kind the hon. Lady mentions were not borne out. In some places there has been a reduction in the number of shops. That is going on in a variety of ways in this country at the moment with r.p.m. Each of these things must be looked at according to the circumstances.
In Sweden, for example, I gather that there has been a general movement of population into towns from rural areas. This itself has affected the number of shops. I stick by my general statement that the apprehensions, certainly the one that this would lead to monopolies which put up prices, have not come about, as will be seen from the level of prices which I have quoted from the statement of the United States Assistant Attorney-General.
Mr. Marsh Mr. Marsh rose—
Mr. Heath: No.
I will now develop the reasons why we came to this conclusion. Where price maintenance prevails, all distributors are obliged to charge the same price, irrespective of variations in their costs and overheads. If they were free to compete, they could build up custom by adopting more up-to-date and efficient methods. If they cannot pass on the benefit to their customers in price reductions and so increase their business, there is no incentive to make changes. Resale price maintenance distorts the system by locking up reserves of capital and labour which are wanted elsewhere, and this, surely, deserves the closest scrutiny at a time in this country when consumer expenditure is increasing and the most urgent need is to make the most productive use of our scarce economic resources. As consumer expenditure will undoubtedly continue to increase substantially year by year, and as our population is also increasing, it makes it doubly necessary to look at this system.
What about the consumers? Under this system, people have to pay the same price for a particular product, irrespective of the sort of shop they go to and of the service they want. Another result is that shops vie with each other in a variety of ways—in selling gimmicks,

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and so on—because they cannot compete in price. This is not to the advantage of the public.
Some people prefer cheaper goods and less service, but the present system does not allow consumers to make their choice between price and service. The real point is that consumers ought to have that choice and retailers should be free to give consumers the choice they want. This is a view which, in this country, has been supported by the Consumer Council, and it is the experience of other countries, where consumers have made it plain that they welcome the opportunity to "shop around".
It is surely a striking fact, when one is having many examples quoted to one from other countries across the world, that, where resale price maintenance has been abolished, there is no evidence to show that the consumer organisations or the consumers are demanding to have it restored or reinstated.
We have our own everyday experience of the view that the housewife today takes of the variable prices which she now has in groceries since r.p.m. has broken down. At the Board of Trade we do not get consumers complaining about the opportunities for finding bargains which now exist in that trade. But people do not have to go looking for bargains and others, whose time is money, may pay a premium for proximity, for going to shops which are much closer and are local; but I see no reason at all why others should have to pay the same sort of premium on the Roods which they buy.
Some retailers have told me that the maintained prices on the goods they sell are needed to subsidise other services which they offer. I suggest to the House that we ought to follow this through, because price maintenance means that a product costs the same in all shops. So, if the margin is fixed at a level high enough to subsidise services some of them offer, it goes without saying that it is not appropriate to other shops selling the same product but not providing the service. Is this fair to the consumer?
I should like to take the service argument a little further. The services offered by many retailers in this country are of a very high standard, but that standard is not universal. We must be
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realistic about this, because personal experience shows that standards of service are in fact extremely patchy. What is obviously true is that resale price maintenance does not guarantee a high standard of service. On the contrary, it means that the customer has no choice about paying for the service and paying the same amount whatever standard of service is offered. Therefore, in taking this action we wish to restore to the consumer the right to choose what he wants to get.
How can this happen? It means that, where there is freer competition, there might be changes in the pattern of specific services offered to the public, particularly those of the repair and maintenance type. Some specialised service businesses might grow up. Indeed, in some trades this is already the normal practice. We must not assume that the present pattern is the best or is necessarily here for all time. The true test is which will best serve the public.
The same thing goes for quality. The Government have a responsibility for ensuring the standard of quality which is necessary for the protection of public health or of safety. They have similar responsibility to protect the consumer from being misled or deceived. There is a body of law, to which both parties have contributed, with these objects—the law on food and medicines, the various Merchandise Marks Acts, the Weights and Measures Act, the Consumer Protection Act, the Consumer Council, the new Hire-Purchase Bill, and so on. This legislation is designed basically to inform and protect the consumer, and I believe that today it is the right way of doing so.
Once we have safeguarded these fundamental requirements by legislation the issue becomes quite different, because thereafter it becomes a matter of choice and taste. I do not accept the argument that consumers need to be nursed along; I believe that they know what they want. There is nothing immoral about preferring something cheap and expendable to something durable and more expensive. There is a whole range of demand in between, and that choice should be provided.
Finally, amongst these arguments we have been told that resale price maintenance guarantees a special standard

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of what one might describe as commercial ethics. That is usually put in the popular form that if resale price maintenance is removed we shall see a very grave deterioration in the whole ethics of the distributive system. I do not believe that this is the case. More than 60 per cent. of retail purchasing today is outside of r.p.m., and I do not believe that these things that are so criticised happen within that 60 per cent.
Last year, consumers spent about £8,000 million on goods without r.p.m.—mainly food, though there was a sizeable amount of clothing and furniture, and the rest on a wide range of miscellaneous articles. I do not believe that when the consumers did that shopping they found a decline in business morality as compared with what they obtained when they shopped under r.p.m.
To sum up, I am not convinced by the arguments advanced in support of the practice of, r.p.m.——
Mr. Marsh: Will the right hon. Gentleman relate some of his remarks to the net book agreement, and the decision reached in that connection?
Mr. Heath: I was about to come to that particular point, and to say that we accept that there may be trades and circumstances in which one or more of the things I have been describing do apply; where there is this need for service, quality or variety. That is why we have drafted the Bill in its present form.
It has also been argued that the existence of r.p.m. keeps in being a wide variety of shops of different kinds. But, agreed, generally speaking, that it is for the consumer, by his actions, to decide the general pattern of retail outlets—and again in answer to the hon. Gentleman —it can be envisaged that without r.p.m. there would be a closure of shops which might cause real hardship to the public and, again, that is why we have made provision for this possibility to be considered under the Bill.
That brings me to a point that has been much discussed recently about the threat to the small shop. I should like to point out that the small shop holds a monopoly in some of the things that attract custom, and which I have
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just been discussing. These are local shops, and proximity is worth a good deal to housewives, and to others who shop at them. Often, they are centres of social life, and a good many people would not regard cost saving as a compensation for the loss of the personal service they get at their local shop.
Again, for the local shop there is no long chain of command going back to an office in another town. The owner himself can adapt his stock, his service and his hours—within the limits of the Shops Act—directly to the demands of the neighbourhood. Indeed, many of us know of circumstances in which the small shop next to the supermarket has been able to exploit that situation to its own advantage—it has happened in my own constituency—because it has concentrated on complementing the service supplied by the larger store, and we all know that elsewhere the small shops have been doing this.
Further, the grocers have shown what can be done by independent traders to compete on more equal terms with the multiples. They have formed their own buying groups or have joined groups sponsored by wholesalers. In 1961, the turnover of independent grocers belonging to groups of this kind—which give them the advantages of larger discounts on bulk buying—was £500 million. Good management can explore new techniques of accounting, of stock control and service. In the grocery trade, the wholesalers' groups I have described will often help the retailers, through an advisory service, to improve their facilities and techniques in regard to such things as stock control. That shows what can be done for the small independent retailer when price maintenance breaks down or is removed.
I know that many of the anxieties about the Bill centre on the small trader, and I believe that it is also known that I regard these fears to be exaggerated. The experience in other countries has shown this to be so. The small retailer, because of his characteristics, is an essential part of the distributive system—indeed, more than that, in this country, as in others, he is an integral part of our national life. There have been times in the past when people have said that the small trader was going under—it happened when the

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multiples came into the retail distributive trade. But it has never happened that the small trader has gone under, and it will not happen now. The reason is that the efficient small shopkeeper is flexible, and adapts himself to the needs of the consumer. As a result, he prospers, and deserves to do so.
I have at some length—and I make no apology for doing so—set the background of the subject of the Bill, and I should now like to turn to the Bill's actual provisions. Its general effect can be expressed very shortly: it makes it unlawful for any supplier to fix a minimum resale price. This general prohibition is accompanied by an exemption procedure which allows the arguments in support of resale price maintenance to be considered. We believe that this is a fair and just method of handling the matter.
Perhaps I could first emphasise that maintained prices do not depend on any legal contract or condition enforceable at law. A supplier can enforce his published prices by refusing to supply a dealer who does not observe them. So the fixing of prices, and their enforcement, is prohibited by Clause 1. But this would be ineffective if we did not, at the same time, prevent the other methods of enforcement. That is the object of Clause 2, which prohibits withholding of supplies. We have decided, and it is in the Bill, that manufacturers should be free to recommend an appropriate price, to advertise that price, or to print it on the packet. That point was made to us by many in the consultations we have had since I made my statement to the House on 15th January, and we have embodied it in the Bill. But the manufacturers may not enforce a recommended price by withholding supplies or refusing to supply except on terms less favourable than those offered to other dealers.
I should like to make it plain that this provision will not in any way affect a supplier's freedom to decide, on any other grounds, with whom or on what terms he will do business. It has been brought home to us by trading associations and retailers as being of the utmost importance that they should be able to make their own decisions as to the selection of their retailers. Some suppliers
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prefer to restrict their outlets quite deliberately, perhaps because they want people with particular qualifications or training. That is entirely unaffected by the Bill, and rightly so.
In deciding whether there has been a breach of Clause 2, and a withholding of supplies, the question for the court to decide will be whether the supplier would have withheld supplies if the dealer had not been selling below the recommended price. That is really the question that has to be answered. That means that a manufacturer may not withhold supplies on the grounds of someone selling below the recommended price, but it also means that the rest of the arrangements are entirely under his control.
Clause 3 deals with loss-leadering, and the supplier's right to take action against that practice. Every country that has attempted to deal with loss-leadering has found immense difficulty in doing so, but most countries have found, in practice, that it has not been a significant problem. Very few cases have been brought to our notice in which this has been a problem. In Canada, where an amendment was made to the Act, very few cases have been brought under that amendment.
This is the practice of selling goods at a loss to attract custom. Some manufacturers dislike it because they fear that it may cause other shops to give up stocking the goods in question. If a manufacturer refuses to let his goods be used as loss-leaders we do not want the general prohibition in Clause 2 to prevent him from doing so. Therefore, Clause 3 permits the withholding of supplies from a dealer who has recently been selling goods of the same kind as loss-leaders. I emphasise "of the same kind". Loss-leadering is defined in the Bill as selling at or below the price actually paid, allowing for carriage and any form of taxation or Purchase Tax, but not allowing discount and not allowing for the overheads of the business.
This is why the Clause is framed in this way. In fixing a price, a dealer must normally be at liberty to distribute his overheads as his commercial judgment suggests to him. This is done throughout innumerable firms whether they are distributive or manufacturing. As I have

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said, it is normal for the dealer to distribute overheads as he wishes and, therefore, the only practicable test for an Act of Parliament is the price actually paid for the goods. Many retailers, including small shopkeepers, want to be able to allocate their overheads in the way they think suitable and the consumer is not in any way suffering when they do this. Therefore, we believe this to be a fair arrangement for loss-leadering.
I should like to say a few words about the remedies provided throughout the Bill. We believe that it would be wrong to make an attempt to keep resale price maintenance, other than by exemption, a criminal offence. We believe that civil proceedings for damages or an injunction should be taken against suppliers who contravene the provisions of the Bill. Proceedings for an injunction can also be taken by the Board of Trade and this should help the small trader who could not afford the cost of going to court. These provisions, dealing with means of enforcement, have been brought home to us by many who have discussed the matter and we have met the case by making them civil proceedings.
As for the exemption procedure, the tribunal for dealing with applications for exemption will be the Restrictive Practices Court. Clause 9 allows the appointment of additional judges for this purpose. There is however one inherent problem in devising a procedure for exemption. It arises from the fact that resale price maintenance is something which is carried on individually by a large number of manufacturers. Clearly, we could not have a separate hearing for every manufacturer, but it is important that the procedure should be fair and capable of working reasonably speedily.
We have, therefore, reached the solution, which is set out in the Bill. Any supplier who wishes to maintain resale price maintenance can apply to do so. When the applications are received it will be for the Registrar to sort them out and group them so that the cases brought before the court relate not to a particular manufacturer's brand but to a whole class of goods.
Mr. Dan Jones: Why not have economists and not judges sitting
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on the bench of the Restrictive Practices Court?
Mr. Heath: We have had experience of the Restrictive Practices Court in operation. The judges are helped by assessors. Expert opinion is available to them. We think that the obviously right way of dealing with these matters is by grouping cases together, because the argument must apply not to one trader, but all traders in this particular class of goods.
I have already mentioned the considerations which we had in mind in constructing the issue which will be before the court. This is dealt with in Clause 5. This has something in common with the similar provision in the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, but there are various important differences because resale price maintenance is a single, well-defined practice. Therefore, in drafting the conditions in Clause 5 it is possible to be much more specific than in dealing with the whole range of practices covered by the Restrictive Practices Court.
I have drawn the attention of the House to the fact that Clause 5 has been deliberately constructed on the basis of arguments which have been put forward for the retention of resale price maintenance by those who wish to retain it, in other words the quality and variety of goods, the number of establishments, and the necessary services. It has been deliberately drafted in that way, but this brings me to the very important question of the burden of proof.
I emphasise to the House that these are not criminal proceedings. There is no question of guilt or innocence. They are commercial matters under civil proceedings. But it has been suggested in discussions since the publication of the Bill that the question of the burden of proof is purely a technical, legal matter, which can, therefore, be easily changed in the Bill merely by reversing the onus and that it would still be perfectly compatible with the general principle of the Bill to turn it round in this way.
I must assure the House that this is not so. The burden of proof goes to the very root of the general conclusion which I announced to the House on 15th January—that resale price maintenance itself is incompatible with a

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competitive economy and, save in exceptional circumstances, should be brought to an end. I accept the view that many supporters of this practice sincerely believe the opposite. They believe that the practice is harmless and that only in exceptional cases should it be forbidden. I accept that that is the view of many of those who support resale price maintenance, but if we had reached this conclusion it would not have required this sort of legislation, and, therefore, there would have been no ground for a general ban on resale price maintenance.
The approach which we believe to be right, and which is embodied in the structure of the Bill, is fundamentally different from that. In coming to the general conclusion that it was incompatible with a competitive society and a competitive economy and, therefore, should be presumed to be against the public interest, we are led automatically to the method that resale price maintenance should be prohibited but that it should be possible for some to have exemptions, as I have been describing them. I think, therefore, that it is right that we should follow the practice of the 1956 Act and ask that those who want an exemption should make an application for it and state their case. This is the procedure used under the 1956 Act, and what we are doing in Clause 5 is to lay the grounds which have to be established to show that a particular case is exceptional.
As I have said, Clause 5 fairly represents the arguments which have been put forward about the interests of the consumers. The Clause as drafted will, I believe, enable the Court to give the arguments fair and adequate consideration. There will be every opportunity for all those who believe that their case is justified to put it before the Court and for the Court to reach a decision.
As for the timetable, under Clause 6 suppliers will have three months, starting one month after the passing of the Bill, to make their applications. Until four months after the Bill is passed, the provisions of the first four Clauses will not be brought into effect, that is to say, the Order making the prohibition cannot he made until after the end of the period for making applications for exemptions. But prohibition will not apply to goods in respect of which an application for
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exemption has been made until that case has been heard.
The adoption of a judicial procedure in the Bill carries with it another important consequence which I should like to put before the House. It is for Parliament, in its discussions on the Bill, to lay down the principles to he applied, but it for the Court then to interpret those principles. This is basically the reason why we came to the conclusion that it would not be appropriate to make statutory exceptions in the Bill itself, because this would amount to Parliament laying down the general considerations, the Court examining those considerations and making judgments but Parliament also making an arbitrary decision in advance of the Court's consideration. This was the reason why, after very careful consideration, we came to the conclusion we did.
What I am sure we ought to do in Parliament is to satisfy ourselves that the criteria in the Bill fairly represent the grounds of which account ought to be taken, it then being for the Court, by its established procedures, to apply them to the circumstances of particular cases in the light of all the evidence which is available.
I believe that the Bill incorporates many desirable safeguards which have been urged on the Government. If there is substance in the arguments which have been put to us, they can be put to the Court, which can be depended upon to assess them.
I shall say a few words now about the legitimate interests of the retailers. Retailers of course, are greatly concerned with the resale price maintenance system. Clause 8(3) gives those concerned the right to be represented before the Court in support of an application by a supplier. It has been suggested that retailers should themselves be entitled to apply for exemption, but this, as I think the House will realise, would involve one in a dilemma. It springs, I think, from a misconception, which I endeavoured to dispel at the beginning, of the nature of resale price maintenance. Resale price maintenance is something done by the manufacturer for the protection of his brand. No distributor can compel a manufacturer to carry out resale price maintenance. If, today, any particular manufacturer drops resale

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price maintenance, that is the end of it, and no retailer, either in the 40 per cent. of the trade covered by it or not, is in a position to do anything about it. Therefore, it would not benefit the retailer to be able to secure from the Court an exemption for a supplier which the supplier had not applied for and was not prepared to use.
Although applications may be made—indeed, they must be made—by people who are actually practising resale price maintenance, we have made sure by one provision that retailers can make their case heard. The retailers' special contribution to the case will certainly not be overlooked because there is conferred on them by Clause 8(3) a right of very substantial value. They will be there not only to give evidence on behalf of the applicant, the manufacturer, but they will be free to brief lawyers and contribute to the deployment of the case. Therefore, the retailer will have every opportunity, either in a group or through his association, to make his own case heard.
The last provision I mention is that providing for the decision of the Court to be reviewed after two years, if circumstances have changed.
I have endeavoured to explain all the provisions of the Bill. The Government are satisfied that the principles embodied in it and its basic provisions are right but this, of course, does not mean that our minds are closed to practical and constructive suggestions for improving the Bill which may be made in our discussions in Committee. However, we believe that the principles of the Bill as I have set them out are right and should be carried through to implement the statement which I made to the House.
I conclude in this way. I think that the Bill will be an important addition to the body of legislation designed to foster competitive trade in all sectors of the economy. The greater freedom will produce a better distributive system. Consumers will enjoy benefits in the form of lower prices. Retailers will have freedom to lower their prices as they see fit.
It is true that it is not possible precisely to measure these benefits, but this does not make them any the less
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important. The trader can improve efficiency, cut his prices and expand his trade. The pattern of retail trade will change and traders ought to be encouraged to meet the demands of the consumer. Let the consumer choose, and pay for, the type of service that he wants.
I think that there is sometimes a danger of forgetting that all this comes back to the consumer. The whole apparatus of production and distribution exists simply so that the consumer—that is, each one of us—may be supplied as cheaply, as efficiently and exactly as possible with what he wants. It is sometimes implied that he can hardly look after himself. I do not believe that the public are so helpless. They are the best judges of what suits them and of what they want to pay for in the way of variety of goods, convenience or services—whatever it may be.
The consumer needs certain basic protections, and these the Government give. The Government's policy is really to obtain greater competitive efficiency within the economy as a whole and to set out a framework of legislation for the basic protection of the consumer. The Bill will be a means of adding to the consumer's freedom of choice and of assisting with the stabilisation and reduction of prices. But, much more even than that, it is part of a policy to make the economy more dynamic for producing the sustained expansion on which depend all the programmes for modernisation which the country so much desires, and to which the whole country can contribute by greater enterprise and greater initiative whether in the economy as a whole or in the distributive trades. I commend the Bill to the House.
4.37 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Jay: I hope that it will not be out of order for me to intervene at this stage in the rather savage controversy which is raging on the benches opposite. I realise that, if I do this, I run the risk of being struck by some missile aimed by one faction opposite at one of the others; but this is a risk which peace-keeping forces have to accept all over the world, and I gladly accept it.
I can well understand that so many hon. Members opposite are aghast at the record of their own Government. There

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are three main issues involved in the Bill and the White Paper which was published last week: first, resale price maintenance, that is, manufacturers' control over retail prices; second, the power of the Monopolies Commission; third, the control of mergers by the Government.
First, let us look at the Government's record on resale price maintenance proper. In 1956, the present Minister of Defence, who, very properly, is with us today, introduced the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill, giving manufacturers the power, which they had never had before, to enforce by law on retailers price contracts to which those retailers were not a party. We opposed that provision. The Government forced it through, and they are now reversing it by Clause 1 of the Bill now before the House.
The present Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, who now wants to reverse it, was, in 1956, the Government Chief Whip who marched all his troops through the Lobby in its support. He marched his soldiers up the hill then, and now, apart from a few gallant mutineers, he is marching them all down again. The Minister of Defence, who then so eloquently exhorted us all to support his Section 25, will tonight be obediently voting against it.
Secondly, let us look at the Monopolies Commission. Before 1956 it worked in more than one group and, therefore, much faster. The Government, in their 1956 Act, curtailed its size and scope. During the Second Reading of that Bill on 6th March, 1956, I was rash enough to say this:
"Our third serious objection to the Bill is that…the President of the Board of Trade is drastically curtailing the scope of the Monopolies Commission."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1956; Vol. 549, c. 1952.]
We said that this would seriously slow down the whole process, and that the Commission should be allowed to go on in separate groups. But the Government, with the help of their resolute and efficient Chief Whip, forced this curtailment through the House.
Now we have the White Paper, which says, on page 3:
"The Government consider that the Commission should again be enlarged and given the right to work simultaneously in groups on several inquiries at once. These changes should also enable the Commission to work more quickly."
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Thirdly, let me turn to the other issue of mergers. In the I.C.l.—Courtauld debate on 14th February, 1962, just over two years ago—I am sorry to quote myself again, but I happened to be speaking—I was audacious enough to say this:
"The time has come to give a standing public authority, possibly a reinforced Monopolies Commission, the job of looking into major merges."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1962; Vol. 653, c. 1337.]
The then President of the Board of Trade, now the Minister of Power, who is also with us today, replied that this was quite impossible. On the same day he said:
"The experts"—
that is, the experts carrying out the inquiry—
"would have to have a clairvoyant sense if a public inquiry of the character suggested was to be of true value.…I believe that the Government are right…not to make a change which might create awkward and undesirable precedents.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1962; Vol. 653, c. 1354.]
Last week's White Paper states, on page 4:
"…the Government propose that the new Monopolies Commission should be empowered at the direction of the Board of Trade, to inquire into any proposed or recently completed merger…."
This is a record which, I think, speaks for itself. However, nobody should suppose, despite all these somersaults, that on monopolies and mergers, as opposed to retail prices, this new White Paper carries us very far or very fast. When examined carefully, it turns out to be slow and timid.
On monopolies, although the Government will ask some day for more legal powers, they are also introducing another delaying stage into the process. There is to be a new Registrar of Monopolies, in addition to the Registrar of Restrictive Practices. There will, therefore, now be at least five stages in the approach to each monopoly. Let us remember, in passing, that in the recent case of motor electrical equipment the existing two stages: first, investigation by the Commission; and, secondly, meditation by the Board of Trade—have occupied six years and one year respectively; and still we have no decision.
In future, three bodies will be involved and at least five stages. First, the

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Registrar will select cases for inquiry by the Commission. Secondly, the Board of Trade will, or will not, I suppose, approve references to the Commission. Thirdly, the Registrar will investigate the facts and, in the White Paper's words,
"set out the issues".
Fourthly, the Commission will decide where the public interest lies, and make
"such further investigations and elucidations as It thinks necessary."
Fifthly, the Board of Trade then meditates—which usually takes a year—on the Commission's report and, perhaps, some time, some day, accepts it, and presents an Order to Parliament.
On the Government's record in recent cases, I should have thought that the treatment of a single monopoly by this procedure would take anything up to 20 years. In any case, the Registrar cannot even be appointed or the Commission enlarged until we have more legislation, and we shall not have any legislation of this kind in this Parliament.
On mergers, it seems to me that the proposals are about equally speedy and effective. There is, first, to be an inquiry into any recently proposed or completed merger by the Government. The White Paper says that the Government do not intend to hold up a proposed merger while it is being investigated. The Commission will report after the merger has gone through and, we are told in the White Paper, that then
"it would be for the Government to take such action as they believed to be necessary".
But does the Secretary of State really think that it would be a sensible or, indeed, practical procedure to allow a merger, such as that between and Courtaulds, to go through and then to unscramble it many years afterwards? I should have thought that that would be as unfair to I.C.I. and Courtaulds as to the rest of the community.
There is one further proposal on restrictive practices in the White Paper which does not seem to have been much noticed. This does not strengthen existing powers, but positively weakens them. The right hon. Gentleman said nothing about this matter. The Government propose to introduce a new ground for establishing that a practice is in the
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public interest in addition to the famous gateway which the Minister of Defence put in Section 21 of the 1956 Act. But a new ground means a new gateway, and that makes it easier to get through. We are told that the new one is intended for the information agreements which are now being brought into the net. But we are also told that its use will not be limited to them. Therefore, here the legislation is being weakened.
What stands out in all this is the astonishingly different treatment meted out by the President of the Board of Trade to the great combine, on the one hand, and the small shopkeeper, on the other. In addition to what I have said, there are two other glaring forms of discrimination. In the first place, whereas r.p.m. is presumed to be against the public interest unless those practising it prove that it is not; when we come to monopolies, the Government propose to presume that they are in the public interest unless the public authority proves that they are not. But even more important and more glaring are the Government's priorities. When the small shopkeeper's livelihood is at stake, we get precise and, in some respects, rather drastic legislation now. But when it comes to monopolies the combines, mergers and commercial services, we are put off for legislation, until perhaps next year, some time, never.
I ask the Secretary of State what possible justification there is for this priority. I do not see the Government's answer to the charge of outright discrimination against the small man. The President of the Board of Trade has had plenty of time. He took up his job last October; I do not think that he will deny that. The previous President of the Board of Trade told us in the I.C.I.-Courtauld debate two years ago that the Board of Trade's private inquiry into mergers and monopolies was already going on.
Therefore, the present Minister must have found the conclusions from the Board of Trade's inquiry on mergers and monopolies as well as on r.p.m. waiting for him when he took office in October last year. If he had time to draft a Bill on the one, why had not he time to draft a Bill on the other?

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Not surprisingly, many people other than the shopkeepers are drawing the conclusion that we may never get this further legislation on monopolies.
The Government, I believe, are also misleading the public in giving the impression—we have had it all again today—that substantial and early falls in prices will result from the Bill. The White Paper starts with a great flourish about reduced costs of production and distribution—and the right hon. Gentleman said it several times this afternoon—and says that it is against this background that these proposals should be judged. Very well. The truth is that the Bill will make no difference for quite a time, and very little difference even in the long run, to the cost of living.
The right hon. Gentleman quoted from other countries. Incidentally, since a Bill rather like this was passed in France the cost of living has risen by 60 per cent. I know that that was not cause and effect—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why say it?"] If the right hon. Gentleman will wait, that is exactly my point. The truth is that the presence or absence of r.p.m. makes comparatively little difference to the level of prices as Compared with all the other economic forces which are at work. Indeed, probably much mere could be achieved by attacking the problem of manufacturers' costs and prices.
The right hon. Gentleman now tells us—this is a new figure; I accept it for the purpose of this debate—that 60 per cent. of retail purchases by value are not price maintained. Of the remaining 40 per cent. which are still price-maintained, the end of r.p.m. will not reduce prices on average by more, I should have thought on experience, than a few per cent. Most foodstuffs, we were told today, are already outside the scope of r.p.m. In any event, I am not sure that I regard a reduction in the price of cigarettes, gin and whisky, however desirable, as a very long step towards Utopia.
One of the oddest of all the features of present Government policy is that while the President of the Board of Trade is so keen to reduce the price of cigarettes, whisky, cars and television sets at almost any cost to the retailer, Government policy is, at the same time,
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actively pushing up both rents and the price of food. Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that his colleague the Minister of Agriculture is forcing through Parliament a Bill which will enable him to persuade our overseas suppliers to charge us more for food and to place special taxes on all the main foodstuffs if he does not succeed at the first attempt?
Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: Why does the right hon. Gentleman use the expression "forcing through Parliament" when the Bill was welcomed from the Opposition Front Bench?
Mr. Jay: The hon. Member cannot have listened to the debate. That Bill was severely criticised and has been considerably amended since. We are not, however, considering that Bill today.
Having thus looked at the Bill against the background which the White Paper proposes, we can judge its main provisions in better perspective. Clause 1, in effect, takes away from the manufacturer and wholesaler the right given to him by law to enforce in the courts a minimum price on retailers who have not signed the contract. We on this side opposed the granting of that power in the 1956 debates, both on Second Reading and in Committee.
We did that for two reasons. First, it is a fairly steep proposition in law and in equity—economics is not the whole of this argument—to allow anybody to enforce a contract on people who were not a party to it. This, at least, needs strong justification. Secondly, we did not then think that a sufficiently strong economic justification had been made out.
Price enforcement of this kind by the manufacturer takes away freedom of choice from both the retailer and the consumer. It deprives the retailer of freedom to charge what price he chooses in accordance with the services which he offers and the costs which he incurs. It certainly deprives the shopper of freedom to choose between extra services and convenience at a higher price and fewer services at a lower price. There must, therefore, be some force in the argument that r.p.m., enforced by Section 25 of the 1956 Act, prevents real economies—we do not know how much

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—being passed on to the consumer. Indeed, if the extreme defenders of r.p.m. did not believe in their hearts that its abolition would lead, on balance, to a fall in prices, I doubt whether they would be as passionate in their opposition to abolition.
We on this side, therefore, having opposed Section 25 in 1956, accept its reversal now for basically the same reasons. Since we have more respect for consistency and responsibility than the party opposite, we shall for that reason not oppose the Second Reading tonight.
We shall, however, criticise a great deal of the Bill, because the Government go much further in this rather curious Measure that the mere removal of Section 25. In 1956, the Minister of Defence, having outlawed the collective boycott—and everybody would have agreed with him on that—could have left things like that; but he did not. He brought in the law with a crash in his Section 25 on the side of the manufacturer.
The President of the Board of Trade now might have simply repealed Section 25 and left the whole issue to the play of business forces. That, I believe, is what prevails in Belgium and Holland, for example. But the Government are not doing that either. They now swing right round with a violent jerk in Clause 2 and bring in the law equally heavily against the manufacturer.
By Clause 2 the manufacturer, having lost—as I think, rightly—the power to enforce his prices by law, is now to be compelled by law to supply retailers whom he does not want to supply. He is even to be forced to supply a retailer whom he does not want to supply and never has supplied, as the right hon. Gentleman will find if he looks at Clause 4(4.a) of his own Bill. The manufacturer is to be presumed in these circumstances by the courts to be withholding supplies in fear of price-cutting simply because he is supplying other retailers and because the retailer in question previously had cut his prices. That seems, at first glance at least, to be fairly steep in the other direction.
The manufacturer might be small and the retailer might be large. Although it may be necessary in some circumstances to force a manufacturer to trade against
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his will, it surely needs a much stronger justification than does Clause 1, which merely deprives him of the right to enforce his prices on other people against their wishes.
One of the oddities of the right hon. Gentleman's Bill is that it proposes exactly the same procedure of exemption for Clause 1 as for Clause 2. Many traders will argue that because the Bill puts the onus of proof upon those asking for exemption, the Minister is, in effect, presuming people to be guilty and requiring them to prove themselves innocent. I do not regard that as a fair criticism if the manufacturer is asking to be given back the power to enforce his dictated prices by law. It may, however, be a cogent criticism if he is merely asking to be relieved from the new obligation to supply retailers whom he does not want to supply.
Therefore, even if we leave the onus of proof on the trader in the case of Clause 1, one of the main Amendments which we must consider in Committee is whether, in the case of Clause 2, it should not be placed upon the Registrar.
Our next criticism of the Bill is that in the proposed procedure for claiming exemption the President of the Board of Trade puts the retailer and the distributive worker in an inferior position to the manufacturer. According to the Clause, any supplier—which means the manufacturer or wholesaler—can give the notice which starts proceedings, but the retailer cannot. Nor can the distributive worker. Nor, indeed, can either of their associations. The right hon. Gentleman said that this was because it was the manufacturer who actually enforced the prices, but that is really no answer. It might well be that a manufacturer is willing to do so, but that the retailer wishes the case at least to be argued before the court.
Therefore, I see no justification for leaving the retailer out of this. It is rather characteristic of the right hon. Gentleman that he seems to treat the small shopkeepers as second-class citizens in this respect.
Mr. Heath: I must protest against such an unnecessary statement. I explained clearly why we adopted this procedure. In the case mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, if the manufac-

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turer is willing to do it, he applies. There is no difficulty.
Mr. Jay: That is the right hon. Gentleman's argument and I do not agree with it. The retailer might wish to start the proceedings and we believe that he should be allowed to. But the right hon. Gentleman goes even further. In Clause 8, he permits the retailer at least to be represented at the hearing but the distributive worker is not allowed to be represented. He is treated almost as a third-class citizen.
We regard this discrimination as intolerable. Whatever form this legislation takes, there really must be equality before the law. And that means that retailers and distributive workers and their associations in each case should be put on an equality with manufacturers and wholesalers. I can promise the right hon. Gentleman that some Amendments will be put down to that effect in Committee.
Sir Alexander Spearman: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what would be the advantage to the retailers if they could not enforce it?
Mr. Jay: I have already pointed out that the manufacturer might wish to enforce and, therefore, it is desirable that the retailer should have a chance to argue the case.
There is a strong case, also, for giving both manufacturers and retailers, under Clause 5, which defines the grounds of exemption, a chance at least to argue that any benefit to the consumer is exceeded by a greater damage to themselves. At present, the Clause as it stands rules that the case must wholly be argued in terms of benefit to the consumer. But surely, in fairness to the shop keeper and the shop worker, Parliament should at least allow for the possibility that the benefit to the consumer might be outweighed by a greater damage to the retailer.
If the right hon. Gentleman says that it would be beyond the power of any court of law to determine relative benefits of this kind, I must remind him that it was the Government and not we who insisted in 1956 on handing over this decision to judges rather than to Ministers. We opposed it then and I am still far from satisfied that it was right.
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Nevertheless, the Government have set up this system and they have based the Bill on it; so that if we are to have that sort of machinery we must ensure that justice is done by it to all.
Finally, we are far from satisfied with the loss-leader Clause. Parliament cannot ignore the evidence from a great many countries that loss-leader practices are a serious problem and that traders fears about them, even though they may be exaggerated, are nevertheless genuine. We must, therefore, have a loss-leader Clause. Apparently, the right hon. Gentleman agrees because there is one in the Bill. But if we do have such a Clause it must be genuine.
I find it difficult to believe, however, that the right hon. Gentleman regards the Clause as it stands as very much more than a sham. All that the supermarket has to do is to charge ½d. more than it paid for its goods. It may be a television set, or a washing machine or, indeed—although not in a supermarket—a car. If it does so, then it will be totally exempt from the Clause. If even that fails, it merely has to announce, apparently, that it is having a clearance sale.
This Clause will have to be materially amended. Since the right hon. Gentleman himself believes it necessary to include a less-leader Clause, it is just as much up to him as to the rest of the House to see that it is genuine and not one which brings the law into ridicule and contempt.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is to reply to the debate. Since he has been at the Treasury, on and off, through all the disasters of the last 10 years, he will remember that, when the controversy was raging about Purchase Tax losses of retailers' stocks, some traders got round this difficulty by arranging to keep goods in the legal ownership of the manufacturer right through until the goods passed into the hands of the consumer, thus treating the distributors as agents. Is there any provision in the Bill which would prevent manufacturers from doing the same again and circumventing the Bill? If there is no resale, then the Bill, as I understand it, does not bite at all. Could that not easily be done with motor cars, or with a number of other goods?
I hope, also, that, both today and at later stages the Secretary of State will

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fulfil his promise to listen seriously to the criticisms made and the Amendments proposed from both sides of the House. I hope that he will not turn down everything after reciting prepared briefs and without listening to the argument. He is sometimes rather obstinate in the House, and is sure that he is right and everyone else wrong. One of his critics on the benches opposite is reported to have said that we cannot do with two General de Gaulles in Europe. I do not think that there is room for even one General de Gaulle in this House—
Mr. Wilfred Proudfoot: Or for Poujade.
Mr. Jay: —and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will approach with an open mind the Amendments which will be proposed from both sides.
The remark of the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Proudfoot) about Poujade shows the attitude of some hon. Members opposite towards shopkeepers.
Mr. Proudfoot: The right hon. Gentleman should know that I am a small shopkeeper. I own only four small stores.
Mr. Jay: It will be interesting to see how the hon. Gentleman votes tonight.
It is clear, on any examination, that the Bill has many defects and is sorely in need of amendment. Because, however, we on this side favour the enlargement of consumer's freedom of choice, and do not believe that price competition should be sweepingly forbidden by law, we shall not oppose the Second Reading.
Despite that, the Government's record over the wider issue of monopolies and mergers, their repeated vacillations and retreats, their soft treatment of the great combines and rough treatment of the small man and their neglect of the problem of manufacturers' costs and profits—all these deserve, and will soon receive, the condemnation of the country.
5.10 p.m.
Mr. Keith Stainton: It is with a great and sincere sense of humility and a real feeling for the historical background of the House that I rise to speak here for the first time. First times can vary from
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the glittering occasion to what I have heard described in Westmorland, where I was born and raised in quite modest circumstances, as the first, last and the ruddy-well monumentally everlasting. I sincerely hope that not only on this occasion but henceforth I shall be able to contribute to the proceedings of the House both in human and useful political terms.
In this my maiden speech as the new Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge, I am sure that my primary duty, and my overriding wish, is to pay tribute to my predecessor. John Hare has gone to another place. But I have no doubt that hon. Members on both sides of the House will join with me in wishing him all the best as Viscount Blakenham of Little Blakenham—there is a Great Blakenham over the hill—in the County of Suffolk. I have no doubt that just as John Hare won the affection and admiration of the people of Suffolk, so, as a distinguished Member for no less than 18 years, he enjoyed the good will of all hon. Members. His friendliness, humility, approachability and, above all, his willingness to see all sides of any question have made him a whole host of friends, whatever their calling or political complexion.
From a number of Press cuttings which have come my way, I gather that the result of the by-election in Sudbury and Woodbridge surprised many. A certain cartoonist even pictured Sudbury as the lone swallow which did not necessarily make a summer. I hesitate, however, to describe the characters depicted in the cartoonist's shooting party out after their pheasants. Similar pundits have toyed with the idea of portraying a mad March hare scampering in crazy zigzag fashion over the fallow winter fields. May I remind the House that even the vitriolic Cobbett in his Rural Rides spoke of Suffolk as a county of true abundance and good husbandry. Alas, in one phrase he said that he always found Suffolk men great boasters of their superiority over others. But, after a semi-colon, he added that he had to say that that was not without reason.
The purpose of the debate is to consider the Government's Bill to restrict—and I emphasise restrict as opposed to abolish—the practice of resale price

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maintenance. I must now address myself to this important departure in the business practice of this country. Before doing so, I must declare an interest as a director of a public company which acts as general wholesalers and operates a chain of retail outlets. Foodstuffs, "near" foods and alcohol are our line of country. In declaring this interest, I hope that I am able to convey, without undue precociousness, some intimate appreciation of the Bill.
I understand—indeed, I could not have failed to register after all the advice which has been heaped upon me—that a maiden speech must be non-contro-versial. This I intend to make my endeavour, even if a pebble or two are dislodged underfoot, My task in this regard is enormously facilitated by the fact that all political parties have committed themselves to the same objective, albeit some more harshly and forthrightly than others.
The Bill must commend itself to the House even if only because we as a nation do not wish to be daubed as the last outpost of Poujadism in the West. The attitude, temperature and thrustfulness of business management is all-important in our endeavours to drive forward to the goal of modernisation and fuller economic wellbeing. Coupled with the White Paper on further action against monopolies and restrictive practices—including, I am glad to see, "information agreements" and "price leadership"—I regard the Bill as an important contribution to the modernisation of Britain.
It would be wrong, however, to concentrate too much on the immediate price benefits to the consumer from a restriction of r.p.m. This will in any case be unlikely to exceed an overall reduction in the cost of living of one or two points over the next year or so—whatever the dramatic gestures with bottles of whisky and washing machines and T.V. sets. This, quite simply, is because the effective area over which r.p.m. now operates is not overwhelming. Spending on foodstuffs is virtually 30 per cent. of consumer expenditure, and r.p.m. went out of the window in this respect two or three years age, as I realised in very salutary terms, having reacted in my own company. Perhaps a further 40 per cent. of spending is also unaffected.
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This leaves us with a balance of 30 per cent. or so of recurrent consumer expenditure which is covered by ostensible r.p.m. I stress that it is ostensible r.p.m. because we all know of what in Germany is called the "grey market" —staff association club cards; knowing someone who knows somebody else who can get it wholesale; the argy-bargy of trading in one's old T.V. or washing machine or car—and 90 per cent. of new cars are sold against trade-ins. The real meaning of the Bill is basic and long term.
I have already stressed the thrustfulness of management and the keen edge of competition, and I should now like briefly to turn to the structure of the retail trades to see what might happen if this thrustfulness and keenness of competition make themselves felt. We have available to us the Censuses of Distribution of 1950, 1957 and partly for 1961. Looking at those 1961 figures which have been published, one is struck by the fact that the average size of retail outlets in terms of retail over-the-counter sales is £15,500. This is from 577,000 retail outlets. If out of this latter figure one takes a mere 3,750 department, variety and general stores, the average size of shop falls from £15,500 takings a year to £13,000. This average must surely conceal a situation of proliferation of small units from which resources could be better deflected to other parts of the economy.
I would a so draw attention to the poor productivity record in retailing. By a process of deflating prices in the 1961 Census of Distribution to the basis of 1950, it is possible to estimate that the true increase in productivity in retailing over the decade 1950–61 has been a mere 10½ per cent., while between 1952 and 1963 the productivity index in total manufacturing rose by three times as much. This contrast must be seen in the light of nearly two million persons engaged full time in the retail trades, and nearly 700,000 employed there part-time.
In some sectors of the retail trade performance has been better than that. Only a deeper analysis can reveal the areas now open to us for improvement, but it is this prospect of improvement and its impact on our general economic development over the years which should

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command our attention and which should commend the Bill to the House
5.20 p.m.
Mr. W. E. Padley: It falls to my lot to congratulate the hon. Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge (Mr. Stainton) on his maiden speech, delivered with knowledge and sincerity and, I think, with courage, because, as the hon. Gentleman said, it is a tradition not to indulge in controversy. Anyone who in a maiden speech deals with resale price maintenance, which gives rise to strife not only between the parties but within the parties, is a man of deep courage and moral principle, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that we look forward to hearing many more contributions from him.
In common with the hon. Gentleman, I must declare my interest, but I think that before I have finished speaking it might be a declaration of disinterest. I am, of course, president of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. Our 360,000 members work in the co-ops, in the multiples and in the supermarkets. It might be said, therefore, that I would be in the camp of passing on the economies to the consumer and, through negotiations, sharing the spoils with the big employers.
During the course of my speech I shall give the minimum conditions for my union going along with the Bill. I find it difficult to sit and listen to arrant nonsense, and this is a subject on which much arrant nonsense is talked. I sought to interrupt the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, but he declined to give way.
The statistics which the right hon. Gentleman gave from the United States of America were statistics of particular commodities in large towns. They were not the price level indices for the States which he quoted, and anyone with any knowledge of this subject knows that there are two certain consequences of the Bill. One is that three new judges will be appointed, and the other is that prices will go up everywhere except in the centres of the large towns. That is the common experience of every country in the world where r.p.m. has been abolished, and I speak as one who has an intimate knowledge of the countries
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in which this has happened and in which the trade union leaders are personal friends of mine. The only argument about the price level is whether prices in the centre of big towns will come down more than they go up outside those centres.
The right hon. Gentleman did well for a Conservative Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. Referring to the fact that prices had gone up a wee bit more in Sweden than in Britain, he said that wages had gone up twice as much in the same period. Indeed they had, partly due to a Labour Government, and partly as a by-product of economic policies which included the abolition of resale price maintenance. Resale price maintenance was abolished in Sweden in 1954, and there is now a strong differential between prices in the centre of Malmö, Gothenburg, Stockholm and other large towns in the rest of the country.
When the last wage bargaining took place in Sweden, there was an axis between the agricultural and forestry workers' union and the shopworkers' union. The wage bargain was that, whereas everybody else got a 4 per cent. increase, agricultural and forestry workers got a 13 per cent. increase and the shopworkers' increase varied between 18 per cent. and 22 per cent. paid on the ground that they had not shared in what the Swedes called the wage drift.
I confess that I do not fear the impact of the Bill in conditions of full employment and inflationary pressure on the wages and working conditions of my members. But, if it goes wrong, I warn the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who I am glad is here, and the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the shopworkers' union and the agricultural workers' union in Britain will be as tough as their Swedish counterparts if it is necessary to defend the standards of life of their members.
The Secretary of State for Industry and Trade said that 40 per cent. of consumer purchasing is covered by resale price maintenance. Most people would think that that is an exaggeration.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: It is.
Mr. Padley: I have been trying to understand why the right hon. Gentleman more or less doubled the usual

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figure. I suppose that the impact of taxation on tobacco, on alcohol, on motor cars and on radio and electrical goods means that of the 40 per cent. well over 10 per cent. will be a direct transfer to the Exchequer.
I suspect, also, that the right hon. Gentleman has included in the figures direct price maintenance as well as resale price maintenance. It is important for the House to understand that the Bill does not deal with price maintenance. It deals with one form, the old form, the cartel form. The new form, direct price maintenance, the monopoly form, the form of the future, is to be encouraged by the Bill. As Rosa Luxemburg said 60 years ago, "Today the capital-list State legislates for the cartel; tomorrow it will outlaw the cartel to enthrone the trust". It is true that the Bill, like the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill of 1956, seeks to outlaw the cartel, and I ask my hon. Friends to realise that it also enthrones the trust.
Today it is commonplace, even in the Financial Times, to say that the 1956 Act has encouraged mergers and takeovers. In 1950, 1954, 1955 and 1956 I said that and it was not commonplace. It was then regarded, if not as a Marxist aberration, at least, as a heresy derived from Luxemburg or Hobson. I predict today, as I did in 1955, that the result of the Bill will be to encourage both vertical and horizontal monopolies.
Let us deal first with vertical monopolies. In the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman about resale price maintenance, I do not know what calculations his advisers made for the footwear trade, but in that trade resale price maintenance today is relatively unimportant. The important thing is direct price maintenance. Two years ago the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor said that the British Shoe Corporation controls about one quarter of the retail market and that a substanial slice of its supplies were made in its own factories. A few groups dominate half the retail trade, and therefore the managing director of "Tuf" was right when he wrote to the Guardian a few weeks ago saying that this would weight the competitive battle on the side of direct price maintenance against resale price maintenance.
Again, in the figures which the President gave, I do not know what the
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House thought about the position of r.p.m. with regard to rubber tyres. When the Monopolies Commission produced its report, Dunlop had approaching 50 per cent. of the production and a 20 per cent. interest in distribution. That slice is direct price maintenance and not resale price maintenance, and the House can take it from me that if the Bill goes through it will not make manufacturers compete with one another. I doubt whether a price war in motor tyres is a desirable social objective in view of the number of accidents on the roads. This Bill will not solve the problem of monopolies at the producer's end of road tyres confronting a "monopsony", that is, monopoly buying power by the five big car groups. If we want to bring down retail margins on tyres we need price control, and probably a dose of public ownership, in the form of a takeover of Dunlop, the price leader.
Mr. Proudfoot: Will the hon. Member explain how I manage to buy any well-known make of tyre at 3s. in the £ discount as an ordinary retail grocer?
Mr. Padley: That point was answered by the hon. Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge. It does not affect my general argument. I predict that the trend in recent years will continue, whereby large retail firms, backed by financiers—the "Charlie" Clore outfit was not a growth from a small trader upwards, but a great concentration of financial and economic power—will go back to the manufacturing industry. Likewise, manufacturing industry will reach out into the retail trade. I want everyone to understand, therefore, that the party opposite does not legislate in the interests of consumers. It is the creature of big business, and this Bill is introduced in the interests of big business.
Secondly, whatever may be said about large multiple supermarkets which employ my members, they are not in business to pass on to the consumers the economies derived from large-scale operations. They are in business to pass on those economies to their shareholders. We have had the experience of Canada and Scandinavia. It is impossible for the President of the Board of Trade or his advisers to quote a single case where the abolition of the resale price main-

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tenance has reduced prices. In most cases—and this is more significant—gross margins have risen.
Statistics drawn from other countries can be tedious—the more tedious because they are difficult to check. But what about British statistics? Following the 1956 Act and the outlawing of collective boycotts, r.p.m. in the grocery trade collapsed. But what happened to prices and gross margins? On 7th February the right hon. Gentleman's own Journal gave us the answer. Did the census of distributive figures, comparing 1961 with 1957, show a reduction of gross margins in the grocery trade? No; it showed a rise from 15·4 per cent. in 1957 to 16 per cent. in 1961, thus justifying what I have been asserting dogmatically against Fabian employers, as well as some of my economist friends, over the years.
This is a staggering thing, because in the period from 1957 to 1961 the self-service revolution was proceeding apace. Whereas in the seven years from 1950 to 1957 about 10 per cent. of the grocery trade had turned over to self-service, from 1957 to 1961 that 10 per cent. had become 20 per cent., with a very substantial saving in manpower. The President of the Board of Trade again boobed on his figures. He said that manpower in the distributive trades was expanding. It is not.
In commenting upon the census, his own Department said that between 1957 and 1961 the effective labour force in the distributive trades dropped by 2 per cent. and the number of full-time employees dropped by 100,000. The Ministry of Labour figures take in part-timers and schoolgirls working in Woolworths on Saturdays, and if we equate those with adult male workers we can obtain the figures referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. But this means that from 1957 to 1961, in the conditions of an Eastern bazaar, with its bargains and gimmicks, £10 million a year was added to the grocery bills of British housewives.
In addition, all the economies of the self-service revolution were swallowed up by the advertising industry, the stamp trading companies and the shareholders of the large firms. I admit that my members benefited to some extent, but
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this benefit was much less than that justified by the growth in productivity. In the old days the manufacturer advertised the goods; today he advertises them and the retailer advertises the prices. We have the additional advertising on television, including that of the London Co-operative Society. Moreover, there are the stamp trading companies that we were discussing the other day. We must remember that 4d. out of every 6d. which the retailer pays to the stamp trading company is a direct imposition upon the consumer. My hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) agrees with me about that, as does the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne).
This means that the advertisers, the stamp trading companies and other middle men—the parasites—have been battening on the housewives and, to a lesser extent, upon distributive trade workers. This should not surprise us, because there was a time, not long ago, when great British economists discarded the outmoded nonsense of Adam Smith. John Hobson, who advised the Independent Labour Party, wrote the report of the Committee on Trusts in 1920. He was supported by others, including Sidney Webb and Ernest Bevin. The Committee on Trusts said that in some trades r.p.m. might be outlawed as being against the public interest, but that in other cases it should be permitted to continue, provided it was under public supervision and, in rare cases, under a system of price control.
To hon. Members of the Liberal Party I would say that Maynard Keynes, in the Liberal Yellow Book of 1927–28, in one of his lesser known but delightfully written essays, followed Hobson and added a few ideas of his own. He also took the view that in some cases r.p.m. should be outlawed while in others it should be retained, but always under public supervision or control. In the post-war period we have seen the enthronement of the old Adam of 1776 and the little Smiths of the post-war period. It is not surprising that Hobson and Keynes have proved to be as reliable guides on the problems of the distributive trades and monopolies and restrictive practices as on the bigger issue of economic crises.
In my view this Bill is right, in a very restricted sense, in that it wants to

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make r.p.m. publicly accountable. To that extent it is in line with everything that I have said since I have been in the House. To the extent that it provides only two alternatives—either to outlaw r.p.m. or to permit it to continue as a private form of price management, without any public supervision or control, it misses the third position—the position adopted by Hobson and Keynes and the T.U.C.—in the evidence which George Woodcock submitted—to the Lloyd Jacob Committee in 1947–48, and the position that I have taken up in this House.
From the trade union angle I am not unduly fearful about the passing of the Bill, but I believe it to be my bounden duty, before making a few practical trade union points, to warn everybody that it will not solve the problems of the distributive trades, bring down prices and reduce gross profit margins. The best academic advice—until academic economics retreated into its old position of the abysmal science and became more concerned with obscurantism than with enlightenment—is to the effect that we must increase public intervention, supervision and, where necessary, control. And where r.p.m. is linked with monopolies at the producer end there should be measures of public ownership.
The Bill provides a judicial procedure for appeals, and I am glad of that. I think that the public interest ought to be defined a little more widely. I accept that the public, as consumers and users, must have the paramount interest in such a Bill as this. But, as it is drafted at present, there could be a situation where 100,000 self-employed retailers and distributive workers could have an income reduction of £3 or £4 a week, and if one single consumer got ½d. benefit that ½d. benefit to the one consumer would outweigh the loss to the 100,000 retailers and distributive workers. That is the public interest as at present defined in the Bill. I am prepared to accept the paramount interest of the public as consumers and users. But surely there must be some qualification of the public interest so that there must be a comparable advantage to the public as a whole to offset what could be a drastic loss to an important section. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider that point.
On the right to appear before the Court I reinforce what was said by my right
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hon. Friend. Obviously trade unions must have the same rights as retailers in this matter. How often trade unions would want to go before the Restrictive Trade Practices Court is open to argument. They have been already, and certainly in the book trade I can think of a smaller trade union which would want to give evidence against the abolition of r.p.m. in respect of books. Most hon. Members would agree that it is commonsense to give equality as between representative sections of the community.
I wish next to refer to loss-leaders. The loss-leader Clause is all that my right hon. Friend said it was. It is a hollow farce. I accept that it is not easy to devise a loss-leader Clause which is effective. But, added to the price paid by the retailer should be a nominal markup of 5 per cent. or 7½ per cent., and, of course, the enforcement against loss leaders should be done by injunction and not by the withholding of supplies. Many goods go through wholesalers. The idea that loss-leaders can be stamped out by the right to withhold supplies is an illusion. Haying used injunctions as a weapon of enforcement in every other case under the Bill, I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman suddenly drops it and replaces it by the withholding of supplies in order to stamp out loss leading.
Loss-leading in the narrow sense is not the biggest problem created by the Bill. The bigger problem—it has cropped up in other countries—is the sort of problem about which everyone knows. Even in conditions of boom and full employment, the electrical industries, for example, have their ups and downs. There is always the danger and the possibility that a large supermarket firm will go to a leading manufacturer, say, of vacuum cleaners at a time when production is running down and about to halt and make a bargain offer for 100,000 or 250,000 vacuum cleaners at a price well below marginal cost and proceed to sell them over the years at prices with which no retailer can possibly compete no matter how efficient he may be.
If the President of the Board of Trade thinks that is far-fetched, I advise him to talk to the leading manufacturers in the radio and electrical trades, as well as with leading figures in the retail

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trades. This means that if we are to have free competition and the abolition of r.p.m. the State will have to hold the ring very much more tightly than is provided for in this Bill. In addition to a strengthened loss-leader Clause, we need either—if I may use a verbal shorthand—a common carrier—common freight, or most favoured customer provision: that is, that a manufacturer would be obliged to supply goods to normal customers on the same terms, allowing for quantity discounts and so on, as he has sold in the preceding period to his most favoured customers. Unless we have that kind of discipline, the whole thing will break down.
I do not for a moment underestimate the difficulties which have been encountered in North America, France and Scandinavia in seeking to devise these remedies. But, unless they are devised, the purposes for which the Bill is said to have been introduced will not be realised. If this Bill reaches the Statute Book exactly as it is now drafted, and nothing else is done, in my considered opinion the honest traders and the consumers in Britain will have less protection than those in any country in Western and Northern Europe. I do not say that in any political party sense.
In the debate on trading stamps I made a very simple point. I was glad to see that Dr. James Jefferys, who did the monumental studies on the distributive trades for the National Institute of Economic and Social Research—it may interest hon. Members to know that my union had special cheap paper-wrapped editions printed for circulation to the membership and that Dr. Jefferys comes to our summer school every year, although he has not always converted my members to his point of view—came up with the same idea which has existed in France since 1st January, 1963, that it is a fraud to stick up a lying price, cross it out and substitute another. But anyone can do that in Britain. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say that the consumer does not need this kind of protection. But, once conditions are created which resemble an Eastern bazaar, we have what my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) would call an imperfect market—a market so imperfect that the
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classical canons of economics do not work at all. That is the difference of emphasis between my hon. Friend and myself in these things.
To sum up, therefore, in my view, it is right that r.p.m. should be made publicly accountable. I think that this Bill is wrong in so far as it says that it should be either outlawed or kept as it is. There is a third position, of keeping it in certain trades under public supervision and, where necessary, public control. I think that the public interest needs to be redefined, including the interest of self-employed shopkeepers and distributive workers, leaving the interest of the public, as consumers, as the paramount interest. I believe that the loss leader Clause must be strengthened and further measures for the prevention of fraud, such as outlawing double price tickets, must be considered in Committee. I should have welcomed a totally different Bill which would have helped to create the planned distributive economy which I regard as necessary in a Socialist Britain.
5.48 p.m.
Mr. A. R. Wise: I beg to move, to leave out "now" and at the end of the Question to add "upon this day six months."
I shall base part of my argument on the speech of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) with almost the whole of which I entirely agree. The hon. Gentleman pointed out so many difficulties about the Bill that, in my view, he made quite clear that it is incapable of amendment to fulfil any of the things which he said were necessary. I only hope that he will believe with me that the best thing to do is to give time for all parties in this House to reconsider the Bill to see whether they can produce a better one, instead of trying to make an extremely bad Bill only a very little bit worse.
With the exception of the Liberal Party, which I believe is unanimous in this matter, I think that there are divisions among hon. Members on both sides of the House. I have every reason to believe that there are hon. Members opposite who do not like the Bill despite the fact that they are allowing the Second Reading to go by. I am certain that there are hon. Members on this side who do not like the Bill at all.

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We were given the reason that this was part of a great scheme for dealing with monopolies, restrictive practices and the like. It might well be that this is true. On the other hand, to pick out one of the minor bits of this great complex which, after all, has been fairly hallowed by tradition and proved by experience, does not seem the right way of going about it. I see no indication in the White Paper or elsewhere that we are to deal seriously with monopolies and restrictive practices.
I am not at all sure that it is either possible, or, indeed, desirable, but I hope that hon. Members opposite will realise, when I run through some of these monopolies and restrictive practices, that I am not condemning them, but merely announcing that they exist. If we are to take the whole thing in one great sweep, we must bring them all in and not carry out a selective series of actions on monopolies. I see no indication that we shall deal, for instance, with the coal monopoly. That is a protected monopoly. We have even forbidden firms to import coal to this country to produce slightly cheaper steel. If we are trying to reduce prices, let us be logical and get down to reducing the basic prices of all. I see no indication that we are to deal with the transport monopoly, from which I personally suffer a great deal in the City of London.
Restrictive practices? Is the closed shop a restrictive practice or not? I am not saying that it is undesirable. It may well not be, but I do not think that it can be denied that it is, in fact, a restrictive practice. When the Conservative Government were putting through the 1956 Bill, they came very close to including it in their list, because the present Minister of Defence, in the course of a speech on that Bill, pointed out that the dividing line between traders limiting entry to a field of supply and a closed shop limiting entry to a trade was not very wide. I ask the Board of Trade: is that true? I do not know, but if it is, and if we are to have this really wide-swept attack on all restrictive practices in the interests of a much freer economy, let us be courageous enough to face all its implications. That is not indicated even in the White Paper.
The first thing which horrified me most was when I came in the White Paper to
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the question of monopolies. Paragraph 8 says:
"The Government therefore reaffirm their view that it would be wrong to introduce into the law any presumption that monopoly is in itself undesirable…"
Surely it is not illogical then to introduce into the law the presumption that resale price maintenance is not in itself undesirable? This is not being consistent. This Jack the Giant Killer of great monopolies and restrictive practices may be wholly admirable, but one begins to think less of Jack when one finds him hunting around for a very small giant to start on.
Restrictive practices are dealt with in the White Paper, which makes great play with the fact that they were wholly condemned by the 1956 Act, but that is a misrepresentation. The Minister responsible for putting it through made it perfectly clear that individual price maintenance was never condemned by any report and was supported by a large number of organisations which thought that they derived benefit from it. It is not fair to include it in the White Paper as having been previously condemned when, in fact, it was not.
It has been suggested by many of my hon. Friends who dislike the Bill intensely that we should not divide the House on Second Reading, but concentrate on seeing what we can do in Committee. I have the greatest doubts that we can do anything in Committee. I see no signs of any indication of concession or yielding on the part of the Government, on any of the things which would make this into a tolerable Bill. I think, therefore, that we can only fall back on Omar Khayyam:
"Could thou and I with Fate conspire To grasp this sorry Scheme of things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits—and then Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!"
The Second Reading is the time to make this protest. The onus of proof is the main thing which sticks in the throats of nearly everyone who dislikes the Bill. It is a curious assumption that it should be suddenly thrown on those who approve resale price maintenance to prove that they are not villains.
We were told by my right hon. Friend that there was a terrific concession made when these things were taken from the

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criminal courts and made into civil actions. I suppose that we can be thankful that no one can actually be hanged for them, but that is hardly a concession. The Lloyd Jacob Report, which was a good one, made it quite clear that the onus of proof should be on the part of those who objected to the practice. What is the reason for the change? I do not know, but it seems as logical as it would be to restore the doctrine that a man with a red flag should precede a motor car. That was the law about the time when resale price maintenance was starting. It seems that we might possibly even find our way back to that.
We are told that this is in the interests of fair competition. Is it possible to maintain that? Are the Government prepared to alter Purchase Tax to make competition more fair? Have they realised that a person selling sweets, who buys in small quantities, not only does not get the benefit of discount for a large part of his trade, but pays more tax because it is levied on the amount which he pays for the supply? If that remains, there is no question of fair competition.
The small trader, we are told, will be able to survive. In my view, he will have to be astonishingly efficient. The definition is very hard to come by. I shall not fall back on sob-stuff, because I do not believe in doing that in the House, but many small traders, instead of settling down peacefully and living on National Assistance, have decided to try to see whether they can make a living by selling things over the counter. What chance are they to have? I submit, absolutely none. Once the Bill is through the small trader will not have a chance.
Are we prepared to make competition fair and to prohibit discounts for quantity? The hon. Member for Ogmore came very near to suggesting that we should make at least an effort to get a most-favoured-trader clause. I think there is a lot to be said for his idea, but it would be impossible to include it in this Bill. What are we to do about loss-leading? If we are to have any effective protection against loss-leading it will have to be fixed at the price paid by the purchaser plus a fixed
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percentage under which he will be compelled to sell. What is that but r.p.m.? Why should we not ditch the whole thing and keep r.p.m. as it is?
There are a number of anomalies in the Bill and in the policy behind it which I find difficult to understand. On the one hand, we have the Board of Trade trying to increase spending. On the other, we have facets of Government policy designed to reduce spending. If the Bill were successful all the efforts that have been made to relieve the strain on our manufacturing industry would fall to the ground, because that industry would be so overstrained that the troubles which the Chancellor is trying hard to avoid would recoil to an ever increasing degree.
The Lloyd Jacob Report is not quoted as much as it should be. It is interesting to note its recommendation on page 33:
"We recommend that no action should be taken which would deprive an individual producer of the power to prescribe and enforce resale prices for goods bearing his brand."
To say that circumstances have changed since that recommendation was made is not a valid enough argument. On this side of the House we cannot use that argument at all, because what we were saying about the state of our economy in 1955, just before the introduction of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, and what we are saying now are very much the same thing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There is no need for hon. Members opposite to be surprised at that, for in both cases we are telling the truth. It is no good arguing that circumstances have changed because they have not, certainly not enough to make a serious impact on policy.
It must be remembered that the Lloyd Jacob Committee was not reviewing the circumstances of 1949, but the habit of restrictive practices and r.p.m. over the previous 60 years. During those years the economy had as many ups and downs as it has had in more recent years. It will always be that way. In any economy, whatever the circumstances and however full or low employment, there will be ups and downs. There are always bound to be fluctuations.
The Lloyd Jacob Committee found, as a result of gathering evidence, that individual r.p.m. acted to the benefit of

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the consumer. The Committee quoted evidence in its Report from a number of consumers' organisations—and I am referring not to any modern growth organisation such as the Consumer Council, but well established and respectable institutions—and found that consumers had derived benefit from r.p.m. We should take full account of what the Lloyd Jacob Committee pointed out on this score.
My right hon. Friend seems to believe that by cutting the retailer's profit, which is what the Bill will do, he will start a sort of price war among manufacturers. That does not in the least follow. I cannot see that the Bill will make the slightest difference to manufacturers, who will get the same prices for their goods and for whom, although a large number of outlets may be curtailed and they may suffer in the end from that, the Bill will have no direct interference with their activities.
To knock 1d. off a packet of cigarettes will not produce paeans of joy within Imperial Tobacco and to knock 1d. off a 6d. bar of chocolate will not lead Cadburys to start a price-cutting spree. Yet we are told that this is one of the objects of the Bill.
Does my right hon. Friend want to go on record as the Minister who, while the Minister of Health was trying to stop people smoking, made it cheaper for people to smoke, and as the Minister who, in the days when we were still striving for temperance, made it cheaper for people to get drunk? These points reflect the basic principle of the Bill, which will affect prices in a way that will do harm but certainly no good. It will not have any effect on the vast range of prices involving the vast proportion of goods, the majority of which are not controlled by r.p.m.
Figures were given by my right hon. Friend in a Written Answer at the time showing, a rise of 4·2 points in the cost of living between January, 1962, and December, 1963. Goods controlled by r.p.m. rose by only 0·28 of a point. In other words, uncontrolled goods rose by over twelve times that of controlled goods. I cannot see, therefore, that the consumer is likely to derive much benefit from anything the Bill may achieve.
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What evidence do we have to show that the consumer has benefited from the abolition of r.p.m. in other countries? All we have heard might be used as evidence on either side of the argument. Prices have risen rather more where r.p.m. has been abolished than they have in this country. I am prepared to admit that there may be other causes, but it is absolutely unproven that the abolition of r,p,m, would do the slightest good for any one in Britain.
We should, therefore, be ill-advised to go so violently against the welfare of so many people who have benefited from the presence of r.p.m. Any possible benefits from its abolition are purely conjectural and are almost impossible to prove by almost any form of statistic. Allied to this we have assembled against the Bill a vast number of persons—the small shopkeepers obviously, their organisations obviously, the union most concerned and many of the multiple stores.
In addition, the chairman of Boots, a large and flourishing chain store, has come out strongly against the Bill; and it is worth remembering that he is the chairman of one of the multiples which might be said to stand to benefit from the Measure. We also have on our side an organise don which one might not expect to see in support of r.p.m., the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, that highly respectable body with a deep free trade tradition.
The Bill will do much harm to a great many people. That is clear. My right hon. Friend made that more or less clear himself when he said that it was necessary to put more people into industry and that shops were overstaffed. Does that remark mean the transfer from shops to industry of people who do not really want to be transferred? If so, that is not a good thing to do.
Time and time again, the Board of Trade—who, I think, are basically the sinner in this business—have pushed forward such a Measure as this. I have not had official information, but I believe that it has been turned down by the highest authority, not once but twice in the last two years. Whenever anyone gets involved with the Board of Trade he seems to be infected by this heresy. We are putting the old adage into reverse,

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and shoving the pigeon in among the cats.
The Government have, I think unfairly, faced hon. Members with a deliberate choice between two evils. Hon. Members can either oppose their own Government at a critical time—which, I can assure the Government, hon. Members are very unwilling to do—or they can choose what they consider to be the lesser evil; which is either passing without protest or actually supporting a Measure they genuinely do not like. That is not a question of sacrificing conscience; it is being deliberately faced with a choice of evils, and that was not a fair dilemma with which to face Government supporters.
Some of my hon. Friends and I have chosen what we consider to be the lesser evil. We are proposing to divide the House when the time comes, and to those who may consider this to be a wrongful action I would say that there comes a time when one must take action in response to a very deeply rooted belief—a belief that the Government are making a very grave and fatal mistake; not that we are making a mistake, but that the Government are making one.
As this is the Shakespeare fourth centenary, and we are putting his portrait in the most revolting way on the most revolting postage stamps, perhaps I might conclude my remarks with the following quotation from King Lear:
"…be Kent unmannerly,
When Lear is mad…
Think'st thou that duty shall have dread to speak,
When power to flattery bows? To plainness honour's bound,
When majesty falls to folly."
6.13 p.m.
Mrs. Freda Corbet: The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) has made a very serious contribution to a debate on a very important subject that ought not to have been rushed on the House in this way. The hon. Member spoke of a time-hallowed practice. A practice that has persisted as long as this one has must have its merits, but I could conceive of the need for a thorough inquiry into the practical effects of this practice on our economy, industry by industry, before the House proceeded any further.
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I am, perhaps, one of the very few hon. Members who have some practical experience of small shopkeeping, in which labour is hardly employed at all, in times of great difficulty—in the 1920s, when price cutting in the confectionery trade was a very serious menace to keepers of sweet shops. There is no doubt that the severe price cutting then carried on by what I would call unscrupulous traders in the great centres of population—very often people incurring heavy debts with the big manufacturers—had a very serious effect on the small shopkeepers who were just managing to get along and make a modest livelihood.
Today, I am inclined to believe what some of my constituents have said in their letters, and I have no doubt that other hon. Members have received similar letters. I have received one that reads:
"As a small newsagent and tobacconist the position seems very serious. Large stores have started selling cigarettes at the same price I purchase them, and while papers offer a better margin of profit, this is offset by a loss on unsold copies, cost of books and news bags and newsboys wages. With my rent increased threefold and rates doubled in the fifteen years I have traded here, you can well see the position I will be in.
Should the small shop be forced to close, then the public will not only lose a personal service, but also the opportunity to buy when large stores are shut."
That letter briefly sums up what so many of us must feel, as responsible representatives of their constituents, is the possible fate of a large number of extremely worthy, hard-working and efficient people.
I should say that efficiency amongst the small shopkeeper population is probably much greater than we find when we go to the large stores. I have not the slightest doubt that the small shopkeeper, particularly in the news agency and tobacconist business, works very hard for very long hours, and very effectively, taking a very small margin of profit on price-maintained goods.
The Minister has spoken as though the margins allowed under resale price maintenance are large. That may be so in the case of certain goods, when, surely, the right course is to inquire into the class of article, but these newsagents businesses, these tobacconists' businesses, and the businesses of licensed victuallers, operate

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on margins of as little as 14 per cent. or 17 per cent.—
Mr. F. A. Burden: Is the hon. Lady aware that the gross margin return on a packet of cigarettes is 10 per cent., and that it is about 9·5 per cent. on pipe tobacco?
Mrs. Corbet: I should know those figures, but I have not sought to get out detailed figures as I thought they were well known to the House. My argument is that over a very wide section of the resale price maintenance sphere there is not a very large margin of profit. A good many shopkeepers would prefer it if they did not have to answer demand created by advertisements. They would prefer to sell other articles, which are not protected by resale price maintenance, because they could get a larger margin of profit, and such margin of profit as they could extort from their customers in the case of some unscrupulous traders.
The margin of profit is low in many cases and were it to he cut as it might well be by traders operating under entirely different conditions probably in large premises employing many workpeople and operating in centres of population where there are great opportunities for trading, the small shopkeeper would suffer badly. Small shopkeepers do not operate in that way as a rule. They have the less good positions and they do not attract the large number of customers necessary for the large turnover which would allow prices to be cut. If they find that the prices of certain staple articles which they sell are being cut by the larger stores and supermarkets, and they seek to retaliate by using similar price-cutting, they find that they have undermined the whole or the larger part of their profits and they are not able to continue in trade.
The House is well aware that there is not a bottomless pit of purchasing. People will buy as a rule only what they want. The result is that if the supermarkets take a large proportion of the trade there is only a small proportion left for those people who are not in a favourable position geographically or because of some other circumstances to compete with the larger shops.
Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: I am trying to follow the hon. Lady's argument. The gist of it seems to be that
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she is expecting a large diminution in the numbers of traders. Would not that be covered by the exception provided in Clause 5(2,b) and would not the manufacturers then apply for an exemption in that case?
Mrs. Corbet: I thank the hon. Member for that useful point. I hope that that is what the courts would decide, but we do not know what they will decide and neither will the poor shopkeepers know.
There will be a period of intense agony for the small shopkeeper. There will be the greatest disadvantage for him in that intervening period, inasmuch that if it were necessary for him to dispose of his business he obviously would not obtain the price for it that he would have obtained before the Bill was implemented. This is a direct loss to him. It might be necessary for the House to look at the question of compensation for such hardship, just as many hon. Members would like to compensate shopkeepers who are badly hit by the clearance operations which are being carried out in so many parts of the country at the moment.
I should like to draw the attention of the House to the position of many shopkeepers who have bought their business and have laid out their capital. Tobacconisus lay out a great deal of capital to pay Government tax. This is unremunerative capital which in my view ought not to be borne by them at all. They have not only done that but they have put a life's work into the business and have possibly no other trade to which they can turn if they lose the business.
I do not claim to be an economist. All I claim to be is someone who once studied political economy more or less on her own at a time when all that could be taught was the merits of competition. Those days have gone. Now, we do not seem to be living in a time when free competition is operating at all. We have to pay architects certain fees according to the price of the building that is being erected, and even if the fees go up in between times because the prices have gone up we have to pay the architects more money although they have not done any more work. Wages, salaries and payment for services are

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governed all round and it looks as if retail trading is the one field where there is to be intense competition and the worker is not to be entitled to a fair day's wage for his over-fair day's work.
I look with some dismay upon suggestions made by some people that the remedy is to allow the small shopkeeper to open his shop all the hours of the day and night. This may be all very well for those who have never worked in these shops. I have, and my husband did. I remember a time when we were never free in our sweet shop until 9.30 at night and it was necessary to work on Sunday. I had to attend the ice cream-making machine and do my knitting at the same time. I was glad when opening hours were restricted, when the war came.
How wrong it is to expect this of people who are operating shops and businesses where today they cannot get any help. People will not come into these businesses because of the hours and because of Saturday working. It is wrong to expect these people to open their shops for long hours and deprive themselves of the recreation and leisure to which every human being is entitled.
I view with dismay the abolition of a system which introduced rational planning into business and which had the merit of dealing with cut-throat competition which hitherto had reduced the industries of the country to despair. That rational system had certain merits. The trader could rely upon a certain margin and could be fairly sure of selling the goods that he stocked. The trader was prepared to order regularly all the year round and this kept the wheels turning in the factories which produced the goods.
I notice that it is claimed by the Motor Agents' Association that in America, in the absence of our system of resale price maintenance, car factories are sometimes closed for several weeks because the retailers will not hold the cars in stock, as they never know what kind of price they will get for them. This is a very serious state of affairs. It has not occurred in the motor trade in this country, and the system which we have here has, in fact, been a great help to the industry with its giant export programmes. The fact that
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the industry can rely on a good, solid, planned home market has made it easier to venture into the more difficult and hazardous business of selling abroad.
These are arguments which we cannot afford to ignore. They are arguments which ought to be carefully examined industry by industry. I hope that the House will make sure that the Bill does not do any damage to the good features which can be shown to exist in the system of resale price maintenance. I shall not vote against the Bill, for the reasons given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), but I hope that I shall be able to assist in shaping it so that when it finally emerges, it will not harm the worthy people to whom I have referred or the important interests in this country which have been maintained under the present system.
6.31 p.m.
Sir Lionel Heald: I firmly support the Bill in principle and, of course, I must, therefore, firmly oppose the Amendment. Before giving my reasons for so doing, I shall, if I may, comment on the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet). I cannot hope to follow her in her eloquence, or her knowledge and experience of retail business, but I feel that it would be quite wrong not to say a word or two on the topic which she has raised.
I have certain reservations about particular provisions of the Bill, notably Clause 3, which I believe ought to be given, and can be given, much stronger teeth. I agree with the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) that consideration should be given to the question whether some sort of conception of unfair competition could be introduced in the Clause. It has been done in several other countries, in some cases with success. This is a difficult thing to do. It is a conception which is rather foreign to our law, but, after all is said and done, a lot of what we are talking about now and have been talking about for some years on this subject would have been considered foreign to our law a little time ago.
On Clauses 3 and 5, a great many right hon. and hon. Members have received, as I have, representations from traders individually and from organisations and

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groups representing them. I know that many of my hon. and right hon. Friends will agree, irrespective of our views about how we should approach this Second Reading, that we should acknowledge the very courteous and moderate terms in which, almost without exception, our correspondents have expressed themselves. Their anxiety and concern is very natural. One thing we can all agree upon is that it is our duty in the House to do what we reasonably and properly can to ensure that, where they have a real case to justify the continuance of the present system, there will be a fair and adequate opportunity to put it forward and have it properly and judicially tested by the Court. This is a matter which will have to be considered when the Bill goes to Committee. I have very great sympathy with the point of view expressed by the hon. Lady, and I am sure we all approach the matter in that spirit.
Further than that, however, I cannot go. Our future in this island depends on our ability to compete in the world of today and of tomorrow. If our national efficiency does not increase, and increase rapidly, no business of any kind in this country can survive, however well its home prices may be protected. I adopt at this point one or two sentences from a leading article in yesterday's Daily Telegraph, a great journal with which I do not always agree and which has very seldom agreed with me.
On this occasion, however, I adopt what it says as being, I venture to think, an admirable statement of the basic principle with which we are concerned:
"The decision to abolish R.P.M. is not an isolated act of policy. It is part of a broad strategy of structural reform in the British economy…Increased powers for the Monopolies Commission and more effective checks on price-fixing…are part of the strategy. So, too, are the growing activities of the National Economic Development Council."
In my view, we must look at the matter in that context. Although we may have to harden our hearts against some of the very moving appeals we receive, we must try to look at the matter from a wider standpoint.
We know what the present position is, but I think that it is worth while getting it clear in our minds again, particularly after the speech of my hon. Friend the
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Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise). My hon. Friend covered a good deal of ground in moving the Amendment, but he did not deal very much with the basic principles of the Bill, and, since we are now dealing with the Second Reading, there is no harm in talking a little about the basic principles.
At present, under Section 25 of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, any and every manufacturer has an unlimited legal right to prevent any competition whatever among retailers in the price at which his goods are sold. I fully support my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade in his insistence that we cannot allow this state of affairs to continue in 1964. One has to remember that this is not a matter of individual contract, as the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) pointed out. I found myself in agreement with most of what the right hon. Gentleman said, except when he presented the "Gentleman from Whitehall" as a friend of the little man. I thought that that was more like a modern version of "Red Riding Hood and the Wolf".
The right hon. Gentleman was quite right to point out that this is not a question of individual contract. Individual contract will not be interfered with. It is most important that this should be appreciated. The system of approved and regular agency will be maintained. This, of course, can be of great assistance in the situation alluded to by the hon. Lady the Member for Peckham, when she spoke about the state of affairs in America when motor car companies were forced to cease production for a time. This situation can be met by a system of approved and regularly constituted agencies, and there is no question of affecting this in any way. A number of traders have inquired of me what would happen, and I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend make quite clear in his opening speech that no change was intended. We can be quite sure about that.
What we are concerned with here is the existence of a legal right which goes right outside any contractual relationship and covers third parties who know nothing of the manufacturer's business. In the Unite States, these people are known, rather picturesquely, as "non-signers", which is really self-explanatory. We should contrast this with the con-

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ception of a monopoly. A monopoly is a state of affairs which is not illegal and does not require any particular law to deal with it until an abuse arises.
No one can deny, and no one has attempted to deny, that there are already instances of whole classes of goods where r.p.m. has been swept away by the force of circumstances and no one seriously has suggested that it should or could be restored. There are also certain cases of r.p.m. in which, although some people want to retain it, the Monopolies Commission, an independent body which consists of experienced people from all walks of life, reported that the system in force was definitely against the public interest and recommended most strongly that it should be abolished.
Take, for example, the electrical accessories and wallpaper cases. The Government are faced with the position that reports have been made and that there is a widespread public demand that action should be taken. The Government have no power whatever to take action, and they can have no power to do so unless and until Section 25 of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, is drastically amended. An ad hoc Act of Parliament to deal with a particular case—for example, electrical accessories —is obviously an impossible and inconceivable way of dealing with the matter. Can anyone seriously suggest that the Government should not be able to deal with those cases which are crying out for attention? That is what we should be suggesting if we did what my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby is asking us to do in refusing to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Mr. Burden: Surely my right hon. and learned Friend is quite wrong. The Bill will have no effect whatsoever on the manufacturers of wallpaper or on any other monopolies which exist at the manufacturing end. This Measure deals entirely with control at the resale level, and does not impose any control elsewhere.
Sir L. Heald: That is true, but the reports with which we are concerned deal with r.p.m. and action cannot be taken in respect of them. In one of those cases—I have the report of it, but I should not delay the House by refer-
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ring to it—it was mainly on the question of resale price maintenance that the Monopolies Commission took its strongest view. The fact remains that there is no power to deal with these cases today.
I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) intervened, because he has shown that it should be pointed out to those who contemplate voting against the Bill or abstaining from voting that what they are doing is saying that nothing should be done at all. The argument that we should not do anything, until we can do everything, is not one which I am prepared to accept. The House of Commons never has accepted it. We proceed by stages in these matters.
Once we accept in principle that the existing unlimited legal right of manufacturers to enforce prices and thereby to interfere with the freedom of third parties in their contracts should go but that individual cases must be considered with a view to their being exempted, it is inevitable that the individual should have to make out his case. It cannot be done in any other way. The individual is the only man who knows the circumstances. He is the only person in a position to bring them forward and to make the case. All that the Registrar can do is to say, "Here are the general circumstances, the general principles, the general position. Why do you say that you should be entitled to continue this system?"
The statements which have been made by organisations—they have been sent to me and I am sure to other hon. Members—are, in effect, enshrined in Clause 5. I do not believe that this so-called onus of proof controversy is very serious once one understands the position.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: My right hon. and learned Friend has said that that is all the Registrar is able to do. Alas, it is not, because under Clause 6(4) the Registrar can gather together any number of applications or decide their order and completely prejudice the subsequent judgment of the Court by his unilateral and unchallengeable right to arrange the exemption applications in any order he chooses.
Sir L. Heald: That is a matter which can be discussed in Committee, but I do not think that it affects my argument.

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At the moment, I am dealing with the so-called onus of proof. This applies in every case in our law when an individual claims exemption from some general rule. It is absolutely elementary. When it is alleged, for example, that something has been done "without just cause or excuse", the person concerned must show the just cause or excuse. It does not mean that he cannot do it. In a very large number of cases he can.
The same applies in the case of a man who is liable for damages "unless he proves", as the Statute says, A, B, C or D. There is nothing unusual in that. He is the man to show that his is an exceptional case. It is not a question of proving a negative. On the contrary, one is doing only the normal thing. The person who affirms a fact is the person to prove it. I think that it may be necessary to give further consideration to paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) in Clause 5(2) and it may be that one addition or more should be made. But these are matters essentially within the knowledge of those concerned. I believe that in many cases people can put forward their case.
Even if one said that, in the first instance, the onus should be on the Registrar, all that he could be required to do would be to put forward the general case. Then, in accordance with our normal process, the onus of proof shifts to those on the other side for them to show the contrary. It should be noted—this has not been mentioned so far—that the proposed wording of Clause 5, which may be the subject of considerable discussion in Committee, is substantially different in at least two important respects from that of Section 21 of the 1956 Act.
The first is that Section 21, which has been criticised, requires the court to be "satisfied", in these words:
…a restriction…shall be deemed to be contrary to the public interest unless the Court is satisfied…
That is a very strong onus which has been criticised a great deal. Those of us who have had something to do with it know that in a large number of cases it is absolutely impossible so to satisfy the court.
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The language in the Bill is different. The Bill says:
"…if it appears to the Court"
that a certain thing has happened, paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) will operate. That is a much less heavy onus. In fact, it is hardly an onus at all. It is much more the wording of what would be the result of an inquiry, rather than on the lines of the very strict burden of proof in the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. Section 21 requires proof of "specific and substantial benefits". Clause 5 does not use that most unsatisfactory phrase at all. It puts the matter in much more practical and comprehensible words.
Returning to the question of principle, something is being said in the House, and a lot has been said outside it, about what has been or is being done in other countries in this matter. I doubt how far it helps us very much to know what people have been doing in other countries. The facts and circumstances are very different and we have to solve our own problem as we meet it. If, however, we are to consider at all what is done in other countries, we must be careful to see that we have the facts right.
I have with me—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that my hon. Friends are in agreement, because I am referring to a pamphlet which has been sent to every hon. Member by an organisation called the R.P.M. Maintenance Co-ordinating Committee. Members of Parliament have no right to complain at anything that is sent to them, but they are entitled to look the gift horse in the mouth and carefully examine the soundness of its teeth.
When one does that and looks at the teeth of the pamphlet, the result is such that for a moment or two I should acquaint those hon. Members who do not already know it with the position. On pages 7 and 8, the pamphlet deals with the position in the United States. It describes the so-called Fair Trade Act, under which, it says,
"forty-six individual States passed legislation in the depression of the 1930s."
It is quite short and it goes on as follows at the top of page 8:
"In the majority of these, R.P.M. is fully enforceable and at the present time the United States Congress is considering a Quality

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Stabilisation Bill which will, if passed, make R.P.M. a federal law. According to The Times of 11th February, 1964, 385 members out of 435 in the House of Representatives are wholly in support of the Bill. The legislation has been approved by a Committee of the House and, writes The Times, will soon be approved by the appropriate Senate Committee."
Reading that, anyone would imagine that it is just about to become law in the United States. The article from The Times, however, had been quoted with considerable economy and the House should know what The Times article said which is not quoted. It first said:
"The United States Congress is considering the idea of enacting a national retail price maintenance Bill. President Kennedy discouraged the effort and President Johnson is equally opposed to the legislation…The rallying point for Senator Humphrey and his many followers… is the purported plight of the small shopkeeper in the United States…small merchants claim that their survival is in doubt.
The fact, however, is that various lobbies of manufacturers and retailers have been seeking national price maintenance since 1914…They met with no success until the 1930s, when they persuaded Congress to permit the states to establish price maintenance systems. Thereafter some 45 States adopted price maintenance laws"
as stated in the pamphlet.
The Times article goes on, however, to say that:
"these had a short life and at present only 23 out of the 50 States still have them."
It goes on:
"Price maintenance advocates in the United States have always cloaked their crusades with euphemisms. 'Fair trade' was their slogan in the past. The new term is 'quality stabilisation'…Congress paid little attention to the 'fair trade' or 'quality stabilisation' lobby until 1962. At that time a group of influential manufacturers joined forces with the National Association of Retail Druggists and set out to influence Congress. Senator Humphrey, whose father was a pharmacist, enlisted gladly in the lobbying effort and wrote the legislation now under consideration. He…. began a long effort to bring President Kennedy to his point of view. The President was not won over but agreed to maintain an open mind….
With that accomplished, Senator Humphrey and others in Congress increased their efforts.…. The Administration, however, has not been converted. The Defence Department contends that price maintenance could add many millions of dollars to military costs. The Justice Department says that price maintenance is a violation of anti-trust principles, that it would destroy retail competition, and that it would add perhaps 15,000 million dollars a year to consumer costs. President
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Johnson in his economic message last month advised Congress to 'resist new steps to legalise price-fixing where competition should prevail'."
Unfortunately, space, no doubt, did not allow that to be included in the pamphlet.
The pamphlet ended by saying:
"The legislation has been approved by the appropriate House Committee and will soon be approved by the appropriate senate Committee."
But the correspondent of The Times goes on like this:
"The lobby has, however, encountered one obstacle which it had not expected. The highly conservative Rules Committee must approve the legislation before it can be voted upon in the House. The lobby had expected to get this approval as a matter of course. For reasons not yet explained the Rules Committee has put the Bill aside and it may never emerge. In this event, the price maintenance crusade is dead."
Mr. Wise: Has anybody who opposes the Bill rested his case on that pamphlet? If not, why has my right hon. and learned Friend quoted it except with the idea of creating prejudice?
Sir L. Heald: No, that is not the reason. It has been sent to every Member of the House of Commons. I speak as a Member of the House and I am not in the least interested in my hon. Friend's views on this point. We in this House are entitled to protest if a public relations organisation which is running a campaign on behalf of the resale price maintenance organisation sends us a document of this kind which is misleading.
I did not want to go on for more than a moment, but my hon. Friend has tempted me. The document goes on to deal with the Common Market and it states, on page 13:
"In the countries of the Common Market other than France resale price maintenance is completely legal and enforcible."
That statement is quite wrong. It does not deal with Germany, and there are others. Holland is just on the point of introducing a Bill. I must pay tribute to those who prepared the pamphlet, because they at least say that in Holland, "at the moment", there is no special legislation, and that is true. It is just coming. I must not delay the House with it any longer, but that is a matter which should be brought forward.
Some of my hon. Friends may have been influenced by the pamphlet. I am sure that it was intended to influence

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them, because it was given great publicity and was quoted in the Press. It was said that it was being sent to every Member of Parliament and I should be surprised if, when they knew that a document like that was available, Members of Parliament have not taken the trouble to read it. When it is sent by an organisation of that kind, it is their business to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby should not object to my referring to it. At least, I did not require his permission for that and I have read it.
There it is. I do not know whether it is much use asking those hon. Friends of mine who have already declared war —it is, perhaps, not much good talking to them—but there might be others who thought that the thing to do was to sit on the fence about the Bill. I earnestly suggest to them that they should not do so and that they should support the Bill.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. W. A. Wilkins: I have not based my judgment, and I do not propose to do so now, on the document which has been quoted by the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald). This is a more down-to-earth business than dialectical arguments such as we have just heard. There was only one passage in the whole of the right hon. and learned Member's speech with which I was in sympathy and that was when he said that consideration should be given to the possibility of unfair competition.
I ask the House to accept that my attitude to the Bill is dictated by what I regard as considerations of justice and fair play to ordinary people who make their livelihood in our small shops.
When I listened to the right hon. Gentleman today the apprehensions with which I viewed the Bill earlier considerably increased. I thought that I noticed a number of contradictions in his speech, not the least of which was his claim that this was an effort to produce stability of prices. I have a vivid recollection of the cut-throat price competition two or three years following the end of the war. How that can be interpreted as contributing to stability of prices I do not know.
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If the Government are to let these people run a free-for-all, obviously we will not have much stability. How can a variety of prices in the High Street contribute to stability? The right hon. Gentleman asks for stability of prices yet says that, with the abolition of resale price maintenance, there will be differing prices That is not stability but a free-for-all.
The Minister made one thing clear. He said that the legislation would not be imposed until after his party had been returned at the General Election. That can only mean one thing—that the Conservative Party is running this as an election gimmick. Can he offer any other explanation?
Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood. I was asked about legislation on monopolies, mergers and restrictive practices. It was to a question on that subject that I replied in that sense and not on resale price maintenance legislation.
Mr. Wilkins: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. I had misinterpreted what he said. As we were discussing the Bill, I got the impression that he was telling the House that it would not be enforced until after the party opposite was returned at the General Election. I thought that I was fairly entitled to adduce from that that this was an election gimmick.
My observations on the Bill are of a somewhat more "earthy" character, for they deal with the people who are involved in the implications of the Bill. My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said that we should be attacking manufacturers' prices and this is the basis of what I want to say.
I have a friend who is in a one-man business. Actually, he employs two assistants, but, technically, it is a one-man business. It is a small ironmongery shop. [Laughter.] I can understand those interested in multiple shops not wanting to know about the difficulties of the small man. We saw, when the Bill was published, how multiple shops immediately began cutting prices and how their shires increased in value on the Stock Exchange.
I was conerued—still am—as, I think, instinctively most Englishmen are concerned, to see that the little man is not

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battered to death by the big fellow. As a party, we on this side have no political interest in this. For us, it is a matter of justice. That is the only basis on which we can argue.
I want to put on record two instances which indicate the kind of action we should be looking for in the future on price maintenance. There is a well-known mop on the market. I was talking to my friend about resale price maintenance and I chided him because he had not written to me opposing the Bill. At first, he said that he was not troubled about the issue and did not care which way it went. But, as an afterthought, he said that he was not sure after all. He pointed out the mop and said that he retailed it at, I believe, 30s. 6d. and bought it through the wholesaler at 20s. 6d.
He added that one of the great multiple stores, buying at the rate of 50,000 a time, had been able to get the mops at 13s. 6d. each through the wholesaler and had retailed them at the same price he paid the wholesaler—20s. 6d. I asked what the foundation for this information was. He said that in a High Court action judgment was given for the manufacturer against the firm which was selling this mop at the price which an ordinary one-man business had to pay.
The second instance is perhaps even more telling. It concerns a well-known brand of paint. He told me that twice within six or seven months there had been an increase in its price. He had first received notice from the manufacturer that the price of a quart tin must go up 6d., of which he and the manufacturer would get 3d. each. Within three months the price was again increased by 3d., this time the manufacturer taking 2d. and leaving ld. to the retailer. Thus, my friend had to accept an increase of 4d. within a short time. But he told me, "I was already getting 4s. 3d. profit on each quart tin and I was perfectly happy with that." [Interruption.] I am trying to impress this on the Minister. If he knows that this sort of thing goes on I cannot understand why he has drafted the Bill as it has been presented to us.
The Government should be launching its attack on the manufacturing end and that is my only criticism of the Bill. We
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are attacking at the wrong end—the small man. We are not going for the bigger fish, the manufacturer.
Another thing which hits the smaller man is discounts. Huge discounts are obtained by the juggernaut organisations of multiple stores which put the small man at a grave disadvantage. I am only speaking now simply from what I term the natural reaction one normally has when one sees the small chap having to struggle against a much bigger organisation. I believe that the Government are misdirecting their attack. They should be going for the monopolies. They should be going for the big fish—not the little fish in the big pond!
Mr. Heath: I have listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman. In the Bill we are dealing with the manufacturer. It is the manufacturer who is enforcing on his friend the price at which he must sell these goods, though he himself does not want to charge those prices. The Bill will mean that the manufacturer will not be able to do that, so it is the manufacturer that we are tackling. The Bill will give to the retailer the freedom to sell at any other price.
I fully realise that small shopkeepers are at a disadvantage in obtaining discounts, and that they feel strongly about it, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would suggest that these large discounts should not be passed on to the consumer. I think that the answer lies in the organisation of a number of small retailers so that they can get the advantage of large buying and discounts.
Mr. Wilkins: But that is only one instance. I am glad to find that that provision is there, but there is nothing to prevent the manufacturer from Increasing his prices and passing on the cost. It therefore goes back to attacking monopolies and restrictive practices in industry.
If and when the Bill becomes operative, and the larger organisations are set free and are able to cut their prices in what is supposed to be a free market, there will probably be many millions of people who will take advantage of that and who will shop where prices are down. That does not appeal to me as being a fair method of trading.
One of the things which grieves me more than anything else about what I

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would call the ordinary workers is that so many of them are good trade unionists only when they are earning their money and not so good when they spend it. They want all the advantages of trade unionism for their own wages and conditions, but they will run to the nearest cut-price shop to buy their goods, paying very little regard to what is happening to the man serving at the counter, or to the worker at the manufacturing source.
If we have a vicious cut-price war, while it may not have the effect of reducing the standard of life of workers in the distributive trades, it is an almost certain bet that it will restrict any possibility of their making progress in better conditions and better wages, because firms will not be able to meet such additional charges. I appeal to my fellow trade unionists to think of their fellow men and to have some regard to seeing that they have the same conditions and standard of living which they would wish to have for themselves.
This battle should be fought at the monopolies and restrictive practices end. It is all very well for the Minister to give us a White Paper on Monopolies and Restrictive Practices, but I have quoted before—and I can produce the document—what the Conservative Party in 1947 called the Industrial Charter, in which hon. Members opposite said that Conservatives hated monopolies. They went on to say in so many words that they would destroy them. It has taken them 17 years to get around to it. There have been innumerable reports from the Monopolies Commission, but in only three instances has any action been taken, and then it has been only slight. It is there that the battle should start and not at the small shopkeepers' end of the distributive process, for the small shopkeeper has probably built up his business over the years, putting much time and work and energy into it, and now sees the possibility of all his work disappearing.
I do not believe that this is a matter of political consideration for us. It is a matter of justice and equity, particularly equity, for the smaller man.
7.15 p.m.
Sir Hugh Linstead: The speech of the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Wilkins) was particularly interesting because it brought out a
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point which has given me the greatest concern throughout the discussions of the Bill during the last few weeks. It is the distinction drawn by the Government between those matters which are dealt with in the White Paper and this subject of resale price maintenance, with which the Bill deals.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) spoke of the necessity of regarding the Bill not as an isolated matter, but as part of a grand strategy. I could have understood that if all the matters dealt with in the White Paper and the Bill had been dealt with in a Bill or in a White Paper. Much confusion and difficulty has been caused by the fact that they ale being dealt with in separate ways.
I have reluctantly concluded that I shall not be able to support my right hon. Friend in the Division Lobby and that I shall have to vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. This is only the third time in 22 years in the House that I have voted against my own party. I feel that the abolition of resale price maintenance will not achieve the objectives which my right hon. Friend has in mind and that, in so far as it does and in so far as it reduces retail prices, it will do so at the expense of the independent trader. I can see nothing but injustice in taking out of the pockets of the independent trader sums of money which are a substantial part of his income in order to bring about what will probably be an extremely small if not insignificant reduction in, for example, the index of retail prices.
The problem is that retail distribution is not home geneous and is not a simple unified structure. Each trade and each activity is different, and to try to deal with the whole spectrum with one weapon is almost to guarantee inequity and even injustice.
As the House knows, for all my working life I have been connected with pharmacy, although not with the commercial side, and it seemed to me that I ought to try to use my association with pharmacy to discover in that limited field what were likely to be the effects of the abolition of resale price maintenance. There is a tendency to discuss the subject in a vacuum, to gaze

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into a crystal ball in order to determine whether certain things will or will not happen. I therefore went to the National Pharmaceutical Union, which represents proprietor pharmacists, and about a fortnight ago I asked it to set up a small working party and to let me have a report on the effects which it foresaw following in their sector of distribution if this Bill became law.
I had the report two days ago, and if the House will bear with me I should like to quote from it. I shall not go into great detail, but I think that hon. Members will find it instructive to see how the Bill is likely to hit one group of people. The 1961 Census of Distribution, which is a public document of course, shows that 30 per cent. of those practising pharmacy had a turnover of less than £10,000 a year. That is extremely small. Forty-seven per cent. had a turnover of between £10,000 and £20,000 and 23 per cent. a turnover of more than £20,000.
The working party took a typical pharmacy with a turnover of between £10,000 and £20,000. It found that one-third of that income came from the National Health Service and two-thirds from sales over the counter. Sixty per cent. of the counter sales are price-maintained articles. Whether that be a good thing or a bad thing, that is the situation. A total turnover of £15,000 a year gives a net profit or about 7·5 per cent.
Let us suppose that the Bill becomes effective, and that price maintenance disappears in this sphere. If the result is a reduction of only 1d. in the 1s.—and if it is not more than that the operation is scarcely worth performing—that will reduce the gross profit by about £500 a year, and it will reduce the net profit by the same amount because the overheads will continue. If the effect of the abolition of r.p.m. is 2d. in 1s. it will reduce the net profit to £129 a year. That is with a turnover of £15,000, and one asks what will be the position of the 3,350 pharmacies with a turnover of less than £10,000 a year?
Because of competition, on average, every year during the last seven years, 97 pharmacies have gone out of business and from the figures that I have quoted one can see that the effect of the abolition of r.p.m. in this important field could be
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to accelerate the tendency represented by that figure of 97 pharmacies a year, with a serious effect on the National Health Service and the general service that pharmacists give.
My right hon. Friend has been very sympathetic in the representations that I have made to him, and I know that his answer is that Clause 5 has been put in the Bill precisely for that purpose. I accept that he has tried to meet this problem by putting in Clause 5, but counsel has already advised that, judging by the practice of the Court in its other capacity, he can give no sort of assurance that they will in fact be able to get through the gateway of Clause 5.
What we tend to forget, when we talk about the possibility of going to the Court under Clause 5, is that there is bound to be a long queue of applicants waiting to go to the Court, and that during the months, and perhaps years, that they are waiting to have their cases called the whole climate of opinion will change. Manufacturers will shrug their shoulders and say, "This is not worth waiting for. We will change our trading policy", and by the time these people get to the Restrictive Practices Court and their cases are determined, their success will be valueless because the manufacturers may well have changed their policy and not desire to continue to maintain prices.
During the Committee stage of the Bill I shall table, among others, three Amendments, which I should like to mention now. They are Amendments which, I hope, will do something to make possible what I believe my right hon. Friend and probably a considerable number of hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to achieve. I wish, first, to amend Clause 2, which compels a manufacturer to supply a retailer whom he may not want to supply.
I do not think that when one is dealing with medicines a manufacturer should be compelled to supply a retailer—[Interruprion.] If I am wrong, I shall be glad to be corrected, but my interpretation of this Clause is that a retailer is in a position to require a manufacturer to supply him with goods. If I have misinterpreted the Clause, so be it. I shall have to examine it again. I think that a manufacturer must be free to protect

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his goods by not being required to sell them to any retailer irrespective of questions of price cutting.
I think that the escape provisions in Clause 5 ought to be enlarged. The conditions do not seem to me sufficient to allow those whose livelihood includes a large element of services, or whose existence depends on the sale of a wide range of goods, and not on a limited range—both meritorious classes of distributors—to get through the gateway or even to give the Court grounds for considering them.
The broad principle of where the onus is to lie has given great concern to my hon. Friends and myself. My right hon. Friend's argument is simply that he cannot alter the onus, but the only reason that he has given for that is that the Government feel that the onus should be where it has been placed in the Bill. I cannot help saying, in reply, that, in 1956, Parliament decided something quite different. I see no justification for saying that we are necessarily right in saying one thing in 1964, when we said something completely different in 1956. I do not believe that we shall be able to persuade the ordinary retailer, the ordinary man engaged in commerce, that he is getting a square deal if the onus remains where the Bill proposes to place it.
I also agree with those who have criticised the loss-leader Clause. I am sure that its weakness springs from the fact that the draftsman took far too literal an interpretation of the words "loss-leader". We shall have to devise a way of making it clear that loss-leading is not selling at less than the cost price, but is selling goods at a low price to attract customers in the hope of selling other goods. There is no doubt that today the loss leader is used not for a purpose of selling a particular article, but for the purpose of attracting people into the shop so that other goods may be sold to them.
I come back to my preliminary point, which is that the great weakness of the Bill is the confusion between the monopoly and restrictive practices element in the White Paper and the resale price maintenance element in the Bill. This morning I received from the owner of a grocery, cigarette, tobacco and confectionery store in my constituency a letter which, I think, puts the mystification of
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the small retailer in as clear-cut a form as it could be put. It is because of that apparent injustice, which this letter reflects, which the Bill is likely to produce for this type of trader, that I feel unable to support my right hon. Friend.
The letter reads:
"To be fair, the Bill must have in mind the need of the greatest number of people and this, of course, means the public. If the abolition of r.p.m. does benefit the country as a whole, then I must be in favour of it, but the abolition must be complete and it must be just.
Just, however, it will not be, for it seems that shopkeepers alone are to be singled out for attack. Public transport is 'price maintained', for no competition is permitted. If r.p.m. is abolished, will 'pirate' buses once again be allowed to serve the public?
The product which trade unionists 'sell' to make a living is their labour, but they are allowed to agree price maintained' rates of pay and prevent 'price cutting' even to the extent of striking. Shopkeepers, on the other hand, who sell goods to make a living are not to be allowed to agree prices, although they are forced to pay 'agreed' wage rates to their staff."
That letter may contain a good deal of special pleading, but that sort of sentiment is common among the small shopkeepers, ant it explains why they feel that they will not be getting a square deal if the Bill becomes law.
7.30 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Holt: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead), who appears to have polished up his argument since he took part in a similar debate on 17th January. With respect to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise), I believe that the hon. Member for Putney put the core of the argument for those who are against the abolition of r.p.m. He showed that they think that, if r.p.m. is abolished with a few exceptions the small retailer will be driven out of business. Rather than that should happen they wish him to be given a concealed subsidy provided by the rest of the retail trade.
The hon. Member for Putney started by saying that the Minister's objectives would not be achieved by the Bill. He said that if the Bill brought down prices it would be at the expense of the small retailer and that the overall reductions would be so small, in terms of the retail price index, as not to be worth the trouble. He gave us some interesting

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statistics about the pharmaceutical retail trade, but in the end his argument simply amounted to saying that the small retail shops would go out of business unless r.p.m. was continued for them.
That is a quite proper and reasonable stand to take up. If there really was a danger that nearly all our small retailers would go out of business, many people who are now in favour of the abolition of r.p.m. would have more than second thoughts. Although many of the small retailers will be marginally affected—and they are being affected now, as the hon. Member said, under r.p.m., since 97 are going out each year—I am sure that the hon. Member would not wish to freeze the distribution system for ever. Changes are bound to take place. If we do not take an exaggerated view of the effect upon the small retailer the case for removing r.p.m. is very much stronger.
It is not so much that we can be certain that we are going to have many price reductions of a significant nature; the important argument in favour of the abolition of r.p.m. is surely that it enables us to obtain the maximum flexibility in the distributive trades, so that such new techniques as appear from time to time can be fully used and that such reductions in cost as a result can be passed on to the public.
I can well believe that the price of some articles may rise. This is quite likely in the case of some chocolate products, because the margins are already extremely small.
Mr. Burden: The hon. Member has made an important point. The whole question revolves round the margin averages. In other words, a firm's buyers or accountants may tell it that it must make a certain margin on its turnover and if it drops on one article it must average its margins up by increasing the price of another. Therefore, the Bill will have no beneficial effect.
Mr. Holt: Some products are distributed under r.p.m. with very bare margins to the wholesaler and retailer, but there are certainly others which are distributed with very large margins. If
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anybody insists, I am willing to accept that some products may rise in price. But it is obvious that the prices of many others will be greatly reduced.
But we should not decide this argument on the price element. On balance, the overall result should be a reduction in prices, although I agree that it is marginal. I am much more concerned to achieve flexibility in our distribution methods, so that we can take full advantage of the improved techniques that now exist, or will come about in the near future.
The Government are in their present difficulty because of the protective climate that we have had ever since the 1930s. They must take their share of the responsibility for that. Under the situation that existed in the past, when there was a total shortage of demand, many businesses not surprisingly rushed to adopt methods of protection. The Government aided and abetted them by the Import Duties Act, but by doing so they made the situation worse and not better. Later, many people realised that what was required was to increase the total demand.
But the old protective attitudes still carried on. The Government have done nothing like enough in making a drive to change the present anti-competitive atmosphere to one of vigorous but fair competition. But the abolition of r.p.m. is very small beer considered in the context of what the Government can do. This step will probably have less impact on prices than other policies that might just as well have been adopted.
I do not know where the Minister gets his information that 40 per cent. of the products bought by consumers are retail price maintained. This is a new figure for the House. I agreed with the figures given by the Parliamentary Secretary in a previous debate, which included services, but I should be interested to know where the right hon. Gentleman's figure comes from. It may or may not be accurate. As a matter of reality I should think that it is inaccurate, because many products—motor cars, television sets and the like—qualify for an allowance when they are traded in, and r.p.m. goes by the board, although it still exists in theory. I should be surprised if r.p.m. covers 40 per cent. of the articles bought by consumers.

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I now want to turn to some of the other measures which, had the Government taken them, would have led many people to give the Bill a far better reception. First, as was pointed out by Dr. Chester recently, public authorities —this includes nationalised industries —spent 44 per cent. of the gross national product each year. His figures refer to 1962. This amounts to about £11,000 million. What are the Government doing about their attitude when they buy things? Are they removing the escalating clauses in contracts which provide that if wages or raw materials go up the price of the contract is automatically increased? Lord Robens had something to say a bout this, but I have not heard much from the Government about it.
In previous years the Government have been tackled about it, and I should have thought that a serious drive in this direction would have had far more effect on stabilising prices and forcing those who give wage increases—as we wish them to do—to see that the increases are paid from greater efficiency and not automatically passed on to the purchaser. A much more determined drive in this direction would make a considerable improvement in dealing with the problem of prices.
Secondly, a much tougher and less tender attitude should be adopted towards monopolies, mergers and restrictive practices than is shown in the White Paper. We have made our points about this and I do not propose to develop them now.
Thirdly, perhaps the most powerful weapon of all for bringing back a competitive atmosphere and holding down prices is unilateral tariff cuts. To me it is extraordinary that after twelve or thirteen years in office this Government have never, so far as I remember, used that weapon in this capacity. I hold no dogmatic view on the subject. I should be delighted were they to use it to deal with monopolies. They could have used it when the Courtauld-I.C.I. row was going on, and on many other occasions. It could have been used more widely to keep down prices over a range of manufactured goods where it was thought that competition was not effective. I should not mind had they used it in some respect and shown they rea-
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lised the powerful nature of this weapon. But they have not used it at all.
I wish now to deal with some of the main aspects of the Bill. It has been a mistake to insist that the Restrictive Practices Court deal with these exemptions. At the time when the 1956 restrictive practices legislation was passing through the House we had long discussions about the relative merits of courts and tribunals. In view of those debates and the experience since, I should have thought that there was a far stronger case for having the exemptions considered by an expanded or reborn—if hon. Members wish—Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission as it used to be.
Basically, under the provisions of this Bill the ultimate decision will still be a politico-economic decision. The Commission and its staff would build up an approach to competitive matters and views about special cases where exemption might be granted. It would provide a much more coherent plant than we shall get from the Restrictive Practices Court particularly when there is a change from one judge to another. My right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend will be puling down Amendments to cover this aspect.
Having decided that we are to have real competition, we must take every possible step to see that the competition is fair. I do not know anyone who supports competition which is patently unfair. Many techniques have developed, quite naturally, from the growth of companies and the growth of multiple shops and discount houses which did not apply thirty and forty years ago. These could have a deleterious effect on the competitive nature of business and could act against the public interest. We have to be quite open-minded about it. This is an extremely difficult problem, and I and my hon. Friends wish to produce what might be called a fair trading charter. I know this has been tried in other countries and there may be arguments about whether it serves a useful purpose. But we should be failing in our duty it we did not examine this aspect carefully during the Committee stage discussions. I hope that there will be other Amendments on the Notice Paper to see whether we can produce a satisfactory fair trading charter.

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I mean exactly that, a satisfactory fair trading charter. I do not mean any inroads to be made on the main principle in this Measure, which is that r.p.m. shall be abolished and we shall have exemptions only where there should be exemptions. But, having agreed to that principle, we must examine whether some of the practices which are going on today and which may be increased when r.p.m. ceases may be effectively dealt with by the House. We shall put down Amendments to outlaw unfair discrimination in selling and loss-leaders designed to lessen competition and so, perhaps, completely to remove a competitor and deceitful pricing. If this is done, we may well end up with a Bill which would be satisfactory.
I hope that the Minister will respond and will produce some ideas of his own. We want to get this Bill much more right than we got the restrictive trade practices legislation. Had some of the Amendments which we put down to that legislation been accepted by the Government regarding the present Section 25, which we did not favour, and about the size of the Monopolies Commission and its duties, the Government would have been relieved of some of the difficulties which face them now. We shall support this Bill which we think deserves a Second Reading and which is capable of considerable improvement. We reserve our right to decide upon our course of action at Third Reading until after we have seen the response by the Government to our proposals.
7.50 p.m.
Mr. R. H. Turton: Where I fall out with the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) is when he assumes that in every system of resale price maintenance there is an absence of competition. If we take the example given by my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead), in pharmacy there is intense competition between the manufacturers of the branded product and such firms as Boots and Timothy Whites and Taylors which are practising direct price maintenance. This, in some cases, can be a system which is against competition and is bad, but in other cases it might be highly beneficial to the whole community, especially to those who live in the sort of rural areas which I repre-
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sent. It is therefore, a matter on which it is very dangerous to come to hasty and early judgments such as I felt that the hon. Member was doing. The hon. Member illustrated the falsity of his argument by admitting that in many cases the abolition of resale price maintenance could put up the price of the article. I agree, and that is what I fear most from what my right hon. Friend is doing by this Measure.
I find myself in a very difficult situation tonight, because I do not agree with either of the two extremes. I know that many hon. Members want to speak in this debate; therefore I shall limit myself to under 10 minutes so that others may take part. I do not see how I can possibly take the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Putney, who agrees with me in thinking that there may be cases where resale price maintenance is against the public interest, yet none the less found that he could not support the Bill.
This is a Second Reading of a Measure which has for its Long Title the description:
"To restrict the maintenance by contractual and other means of minimum resale prices in respect of goods supplied for resale in the United Kingdom; and for purposes connected therewith."
That seems to me to be so wide that it is entirely in line with my attitude on the Bill, which was summed up very well by the Prime Minister when he said, "We have decided to end resale price maintenance where it acts against the public interest." For that reason, and that being the description by my leader of this Measure, I shall certainly vote for a Second Reading of this Bill, but I am extremely worried about some of its provisions. It is very difficult when one finds that the Bill places the onus of proof on the manufacturer to prove that it is in the public interest and at the same time in the Government White Paper one finds this approach to monopoly:
"The Government are satisfied that the 'neutral' and uncommitted approach to monopoly on which present legislation is based remains fundamentally right and they do not propose to introduce into the law any presumption that monopoly or size are in themselves undesirable."
Yet at the same time they are introducing in this Bill the presumption that resale price maintenance is undesirable.
Mr. Heath: I do not want to take up any of my right hon. Friend's ten minutes, but in dealing with monopolies we are defining monopoly by size and by saying that it is about 30 per cent. of the market or a substantial amount. This is purely a definition by size. What we are dealing with in resale price maintenance is a restrictive practice. In the 1956 Act, Parliament decided, on the initiative of the Government, that restrictive practices should go. What we have decided in this case is that this particular restrictive practice is against the public interest. It is a judgment on a particular kind of action, not merely on size. When we come to the question of what size it is, in other words, the practices of monopolies, we shall be taking full powers to deal with them. There is no doubt about that.
Mr. Turton: This obviously will be discussed in Committee, but I do not find the argument of my right hon. Friend completely convincing. I hope that we shall be able to persuade him to alter it in Committee. Let us assume that he is taking the method of the 1956 Act, a very cumbrous way, to deal with resale price maintenance agreements. Then I ask him to have another look at Clause 5. It seems essential that the same criteria used in the 1956 Act should be here in this Measure. At least they should not be narrower than they are in the 1956 Act. I hope that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer replies to the debate he will give the assurance that he will secure Amendments to Clause 5 to make it resemble completely the 1956 Act.
The importance of that seems to be that there are a number of systems which have already been examined either by the Monopolies Commission or the Restrictive Practices Court and it is essential that those which have been already declared to be in the public interest should not have to go through the costly procedure of appearance before the court and the argument entailed in that. If the criteria is different in this Bill from those in the 1956 Act, it is clear that those systems will have to go through the whole argument again. I am sure my right hon. Friend would not want that to happen.
Mr. George Brown: Is the hon. Member sure?
Mr. Turton: I am sure from the way in which my right hon. Friend has drafted the Bill that he has tried to avoid making those who have already argued their case recently having to do it again. I am sure that if I am wrong my right hon. Friend will correct me.
Mr. Max well-Hyslop: My right hon. Friend has recently written to a firm in the book trade saying the exact opposite, that the net book agreement is not to be taken as in any way implying that resale price maintenance has the approval of the Government.
Mr. Turton: I may have misinterpreted the intention of my right hon. Friend. I think that in this Bill he is trying to allow for certain exemptions, but the Bill does not carry that out as it is at present drafted. The House and the country in general do not want the parties to the net book agrement to have to go to the expense of another £33,000 to argue their case. In Committee we shall try to prevent that happening. My right hon. Friend has given the assurance that he would be ready to improve the Bill in the discussions we shall have on it. In view of that assurance, I personally shall vote for a Second Reading of the Bill tonight.
7.58 p.m.
Mr. Edward Milne: The Secretary of State, in opening the debate, stated that the main purpose of the Bill was to increase competition over a wide field of retail and distributive trades, and he linked that with the Government's White Paper on Monopolies, Mergers and Restrictive Practices.
The Minister said that the forces of competition in our main streets would be increased and strengthened by the Government's proposals on resale price maintenance. I am wondering, on the question of mergers and monopolies, why the Government have hesitated until 1964 before dealing with this aspect of the mechanics of distribution. Although the Minister has defined a monopoly as a firm controlling a third of any particular trade, that is no way to deal with monopolies, to wait until they have achieved a certain degree of strength.
I want the Parliamentary Secretary to take particular note of what has been happening in retail distribution since the end of the war, and particularly during

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the last 10 or 15 years. Consider the development of Great Universal Stores Ltd. Just before the war the organisation had about 100 stores and about 7,000 employees. By 1958, it had grown into a vast empire, with 2,672 stores and more than 100,000 employees. Its activities cover all sorts of trades and sections of retail distribution.
If one looks at the shops in Britain's main shopping centres one has the impression of competition, although underlying it one has the feeling of certainty that monopoly activities are at work. Take, for example, Allied Suppliers Ltd., a group of Unilever Ltd. Its activities include the Meadow Dairy Co. Ltd., Pearks' Dairies Ltd., the Maypole Dairy Company Ltd., Retail Investments Ltd., which is particularly strong in the North-East and Scotland, Galbraith's, Templeton's, Massey's, Cochranes' and others in the centres of retailing in Scotland. I hope that the Chancellor will tell us tonight what will be covered by the Government's definition of "monopoly" in this sphere.
Loss-leaders and the Clause covering them have been discussed at length today and I believe that the weakness of the Bill in its ability to define these things is shown on this subject. Heinz, for example, sells products to shopkeepers throughout the country, although there are at least eight different prices for the commodities the firm produces. I agree with the Minister about the quantity buying of the large stores compared with the small shopkeeper. The latter is bound to be at a disadvantage. The large retailer buys in bulk and large firms of food manufacturers and canners have "special weeks" for certain items. When goods are purchased at a special rate during those weeks it is simple for the large retailer later to sell those goods at the normal price, although they were designed to be sold during a special week, and thus make an even bigger profit.
"Loss-leaders" is in some respects a misleading term, because any retailer who wants to stay in business, and who indulges in the practice of loss-leading in its true sense, will find himself out of business. Loss-leading really means the shopkeeper selling a number of commodities, a fraction of the lines he sells, at cost or even below. He then proceeds
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to mark up the rest of the articles—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to disagree with me, but they know that this happens in the retail distributive trade. It is obvious that if any shopkeeper is selling goods at cost, or below, he must, if he wants to stay in business, mark up the other items.
Mr. Angus Maude (Stratford-on-Avon): Surely the hon. Gentleman has not taken account of the fact that if the loss-leader system works, and gets more people and trade into the shop, the turnover in the other commodities goes up and it is not necessary for the shopkeeper to increase the prices of the other articles.
Mr. Milne: The hon. Gentleman can resolve that one with his own Front Bench. He is really making my point; that the turnover in the other goods should lead to an honest reduction in prices, but because the retailer must offset the losses on his loss-leader items by marking up the prices all round he is restricted from passing on the reductions to the customer. However, I am not here to conduct a war of attrition with hon. Members opposite. They must sort it out for themselves.
To get a true picture of consumer interest in this matter we must study at length the Lloyd Jacob Report of 1949. Several hon. Members have taken the view that that Report was published too far back to be of great consequence today. Despite the tremendous changes that have taken place in the types of distributive outlets, retail distribution in Britain has remained basically what it was when the Lloyd Jacob Committee examined the matter. It is interesting to note what the Committee had to say in paragraph 47 about branded goods and fixed prices:
"Some of the evidence given by manufacturers and distributors referred directly to benefits which consumers derived from resale price maintenance and to their alleged likes and dislikes. We made a special effort, therefore, to find out at first hand what ordinary shoppers thought about fixed retail prices."
The Report went on, in paragraph 48:
"It is notoriously difficult to discover anything which can be confidently described as the collective view of the shopping public, but we had discussions with representatives of three national women's organisations."

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They were the National Council of Women, the National Federation of Women's. Institutes and the Women's Co-operative Guild.
The Report continued:
"The members of these organisations are drawn from different sections of our society and in each case their representatives took steps to find out the views of as many of the members as possible."
Mr. John Stonehouse: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Women's Co-operative Guild does not necessarily take the same view today?
Mr. Milne: That is not entirely correct, because I intend to deal with paragraph 19 of the Report, which is still substantially the view held on this issue of branded goods by the three women's organisations that I have mentioned.
Paragraph 19 stated:
"The representatives of the various women's organisations who gave evidence before us were, without exception, strongly in favour of branding. They found it convenient when shopping not to have to examine everything they bought in order to assess its quality; they had found that the containers in which branded goods are normally sold helped to keep the article in a satisfactory condition…"
The Report went on to deal with the safeguards shoppers had, the prices of goods and the fact that they were buying branded articles.
The Bill is not a good Bill, not merely because of the criticisms which can be directed against it, but because it is incapable of carrying out what it is intended to do. The Minister spoke about the forces of competition and the Government's wish to help the consumer and tackle monopolies. The Bill is contradictory. If it went on to the Statute Book in its present form, it is possible that within six months or a year afterwards things could be precisely as they are now in retail distribution.
The Bill will allow all the present agreements to continue in operation, if certain conditions can be satisfied. The operation of the Bill will not give the consumer, the shop worker, or the trader any of the things which are needed in a modern society. The tendency towards monopoly in the retail distributive trade is rather dangerous. Any of the vast multiples are able to buy up shops and close them at will.
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Another big change which is taking place in retail distribution is that which I illustrates by referring to Allied Suppliers Ltd. At the moment, it has seven or eight retail distributive outlets in the grocery trade in the main street of any large city. We can rest assured that four or five of these outlets will be closed and that there will be concentration.
Another factor which must be considered is the case where the manufacturer is also the retailer. How much longer will some of the smaller shopkeepers who are so eloquently talking about competition—some hon. Members opposite are their allies in this matter —he given freedom to sell the goods the outlets for which manufacturers themselves are buying up? In short, the tendency towards monopoly in retail distribution is our main danger. It is not merely the question of resale price maintenance.
8.13 p.m.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley: The hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) seemed to be more frightened of size in itself than of the abuses which flow from size. I am not frightened of size. I am frightened of monopoly. I was not sure that the hon. Member made that distinction.
We must start our consideration of the Bill with the Reports of the Monopolies Commission, which made it abundantly clear that iii the two cases of wallpaper and electrical components the practice of resale price maintenance had a very deleterious effect indeed. The following sentence appears in the Report in connection with wallpaper:
"We think that the practice actually does preserve that near monopoly."
This is the answer to some of my hon. Friends who have questioned whether the Bill would have any effect upon the manufacturer. I believe that it will, because until this near monopoly can be broken we shall not be able to break their prices.
Mr. Burden: There has been much trotting out of the Report in connection with the monopoly in wallpaper. It is such a big monopoly that it cannot be broken by any control over or abolition of resale price maintenance. One way in which it could be broken overnight is by abolishing the duty on wallpaper.

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That would bring in such a flow of wallpaper as to force out the monopoly.
Mr. Ridley: I am not averse to greater international competition. I go along with any hon. Member who wants to see our tariffs lowered. We must start by recognising that this practice in monopolistic or semi-monopolistic industries must be brought to an end. I believe that the abolition of r.p.m. will have the effect of forcing traders to put pressures upon manufacturers. I am certain that this point of view has validity.
The practice of resale price maintenance has been roundly condemned. Nearly every hon. Member would agree that in at least the two cases of wallpaper and electrical components, and perhaps in others which have not yet been investigated, there are very strong grounds for abolishing it. Therefore, the Government must take some action.
The issue boils down to this. Either we ban restrictive practices where proof can be produced by the Board of Trade that they are against the public interest, or we make them illegal and put the onus of proof on the supplier or trader. Here we have put the onus firmly on the trader. There are some very strong reasons why, out of two possible courses—I repeat that these are the only two possible courses—we have chosen the right one.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: If the Board of Trade has the information which my hon. Friend hopes it has, can he suggest why it must keep the secret to itself? Why could not the Secretary of State give us a single fact today to support his generalisation?
Mr. Ridley: I am sorry that my hon. Friends are making me go on rather longer than I had intended. I cannot answer for the Secretary of State. All I can do is to read the two Reports of the Monopolies Commission, which make me, for one, certain that action should be taken.
I want now to elaborate on the question of where the onus of proof should lie. In principle, I will not disguise the fact that I stand entirely for competition, for a free and untrammelled system of marketing. I remind hon. Members of a definition which appears in Article 85 of the Treaty of Rome,
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because I think that they are the right words:
"The following shall be deemed to be incompatible…practices which are likely to affect trade…and which have as their object or result the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition…"
This seems to me to be the principle on which we should stand.
We have been reminded that the law in England presumes one to be innocent until one has been proved to be guilty. This is a bogus analogy. To take a very exaggerated example, if we wish to say that a man cannot beat his wife we do not say that all men can go on beating their wives until we have investigated each case and found some grounds for it continuing. We say that nobody can beat his wife but that if he can make out such a good case for doing so we might be prepared to make an exemption. This is surely the right approach.
Some of my hon. Friends—I agree with them on this—believe that restrictive practices in other parts of our economy are equally, if not more, damaging. I refer to restrictive practices among labour. I do not think that there is any excuse in this age for restrictive machine manning schedules, for demarcation as between trades, or for the restriction of apprenticeships which still goes on in some major industries.
Mr. H. Hynd: What about the restrictive practices in connection with barristers and solicitors?
Mr. Ridley: I cannot excuse these in principle. I am sorry that we are still making no progress against them. I do not think that my hon. Friends would be happy were we to move against these restrictive practices and say that they can all go on until one by one they have been before a court and exempted. That is not a means of proceeding. It would be better to say that all such retrictive practices are wrong unless they can be shown to a court to be in the public interest.
The third reason I advance for the onus of proof being where it is placed by the Bill is that in ten or twelve years the Monopolies Commission and the Restrictive Practices Court have considered only ten industries and brought out reports on ten trades. This is but a minute fraction of our total trade. I do not know what skeletons we have not

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been told about still lie in the cupboard. I am not satisfied with the rate of progress.
I should have thought that most of my hon. Friends would have accepted the principle of competition, and I am surprised that there can be those on this of the Chamber who would not follow me in that simple proposition. Perhaps some of them are frightened of the electoral consequences of this Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) seemed a little frightened of the chairman of Boots, but I do not think that we would mind if we were to lose that gentleman's vote. At the same time, my hon. Friend should not have these feelings of apprehension as he has already said, as have other hon. Members, that he will not contest the next election. It would therefore seem better to leave it to those of us who have to contest the next election what attitude to take before we make up our minds on this Bill.
Some of my hon. Friends do not seem able to subscribe to the application of a policy of modernisation. They seem to shirk its consequences. It is easy to vote here for the Beeching Plan and then to oppose in one's constituency each railway closure that is suggested. It is easy to talk about a policy of modernisation, and then to oppose each Measure brought forward to implement it. We should accept modernisation, with all its consequences —we should be ready to welcome it, and go forward with it. I see this Bill as an essential step in the modernisation of our economic system.
I must say that my hon. Friends are a great deal more consistent than are the Express newspapers. I am at a loss to understand the attitude of those newspapers. In 1951 they came out unique-vocally against resale price maintenance, saying of the Labour Government's White Paper:
"The White Paper condemning price-fixing is a first-class document. For why? Because here at last is the promise of legislation which will give a break to the most important person in Britain—the housewife hammered by the cost of living."
I find it hard to understand this change of view over a period of only 13 years during which, as far as I know, no new factors have cropped up to make people violently change their minds. I seriously wonder whether there could be
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any connection between this present attitude and the fact that it is my right hon. Friend who has brought forward this Bill—
Mr. Burden: Does my hon. Friend know that in 1956 the Government came out wholeheartedly in favour of r.p.m.? Therefore, if there is inconsistency on the part of the Beaverbrook newspapers between 1951 and now, there is much greater inconsistency on the part of the Government in a much shorter time.
Mr. Ridley: I really would be frightened if I thought that my right hon. Friends did not have some flexibility of approach in the matter. They moved against collective resale price maintenance in 1956, and they now realise that another bite at the cherry is right. If we cannot do that, I do not think that progress is possible at all.
It will be extremely difficult to operate Clause 3, which deals with loss-leaders. In fact, I do not think that, as it now stands, it can be made to work. I do not see how it will be policed, or how we shall know when this practice is taking place. The proof seems to be put on the shoulders of the supplier, but will the supplier have a number of people going round to see whether loss leaders are being offered in all the shops up and down the country? Further, what happens if he is wrong. The words in the Clause are:
"…has reasonable cause to believe…"
that loss-leader tactics are being used. What redress has the retailer when the supplier proves to be wrong?
The traders' associations themselves think that this Clause in unworkable, and I rather question whether it is needed. Loss-leadering has been made out to be the most wicked and shocking practice, but I do not see that it is as unfair as all that. I understand that Canadian legislation against loss-leaders has hardly ever been used. What is wrong in a manufacturer wanting to reduce the price of a few lines in order to attract customers? Is not that a perfectly legitimate weapon of competition? I doubt whether we should ban it. It would seem that once r.p.m. has gone these is very little motive left for operating loss-leader tactics. I cannot see attractiveness of cutting 6d. off the price of something that does not

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have a controlled price. I doubt whether we need this Clause.
My right hon. Friend has gone very far with the three conditions in Clause 5, and, in particular, his second condition, in subsection (2,b):
"…the number of establishments in which the goods are sold by retail would be substantially reduced…"
I want to compare that with the Common Market rules. Those rules equally ban r.p.m. completely, equally say that the onus of proof must be on the traders, and say that the conditions upon which exemptions from the banning of r.p.m. can be granted are
"Any concerted practices or classes of practices which contribute to the improvement of the production or distribution of goods, and to the promotion of technical or economic progress, while reserving to users an equitable share in the profit resulting therefrom."
That is a much tougher ground for exemption than the three conditions in the Bill, and my right hon. Friend must not water down this Measure to such an extent that it will have none of the good effect he has claimed in its support. The "number-of-establishments" provision gives the shopkeepers a fairly good guarantee that they will not be forced to close by economic pressure, because if there is such a threat they can plead that as a ground for exemption.
It is worth comparing this state of things with that of the small farmers —another class that is having economic pressure applied to it. The small farmers cannot blame claim that the Price Review is wrong and should not be applied to them because the number of establishments will be substantially reduced as a result. That claim cannot go forward. It therefore seems that this provision takes away one of the main strengths of the Bill, and it will make it harder to achieve the objects set out for it.
When one looks at the figures of the decline in the number of shops, one is staggered to see that since 1957 there has been no reduction in the number of grocers shops, despite the breakdown of r.p.m.
It is also interesting to see that between 1957 and 1961 the number of confectioners, tobacconists and newsagents declined from 77,000 to 71,000
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despite the existence of r.p.m. in those trades. I am tempted to come to the conclusion that r.p.m. does not affect the number of shops, the number of outlets nor the conditions of trade in them. It seems to me, as in the case of the small farmers, that this is one of the economic facts of life. Where there is room and economic need for shops or more farms they come in, and where economic forces are moving against them they tend to disappear. This is not the time or place to go into the many factors which must be acting, but one can maintain that the importance of r.p.m. in the pattern of distribution has been grossly exaggerated.
Modernisation of the system of distribution or of any other parts of our economy must, does, and will involve change. I am sure that we all share the apprehensions and fears of those who may be affected by that change and who may be personally involved, but that should not be a reason for preventing us going forward. Rather, it should be a reason for making us redouble our efforts to help the victims of change wherever it occurs.
I am sad that the Government have not in this Session brought in their Measure to deal with redundancy payments. Any Measures which can be brought forward to make changes attractive or less unpleasant for a section of the community, whether shopkeepers, farmers or trade unionists, are to be welcomed. These are the lines on which we should be thinking while at the same time pressing forward in making our economy more efficient.
8.31 p.m.
Mr. John Stonehouse: As the sponsor of an earlier Bill to abolish resale price maintenance, I support the principles of this Bill, but I regret the way in which it has been introduced and the ill-considered drafting which has resulted in every speech in the debate opposing the Bill in one way or another.
One of the surprises of the debate has been that although there have been two speakers on the Conservative side to speak in support of the Bill, and only two, they gave the Bill only qualified support. There have been many others anxious to intervene in the debate from the Conservative side who are obviously

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wholly opposed to the Bill. The Bill demonsrates the complete disarray of the Conservative Party.
The party opposite cannot expect to be able to implement a Measure of this character effectively before the election, because its own supporters are so totally divided about it.
Dame Edith Pitt: As one of those who would very much like to show their complete support of the Government, but who look like being defeated in that object, I hope that the hon. Member will confirm that when I debated this matter with him on the radio I showed my complete support for the proposals.
Mr. Stonehouse: I am happy to do that and I will limit my remarks to 10 minutes or so to allow the hon. Lady, and so many of her colleagues who want to have the opportunity of being called, to take part in the debate.
I agree with the Guardian, which said, on 26th February, that
"However quickly the Bill gets through Parliament its effect on prices in the shops can bring no, certain rewards this side of an election."
This is absolutely right. It is a window-dressing Bill. It will have no real effect on prices. It has been brought in now to try to create a good image for the Conservative Party.
The Guardian went on to say:
"The Conservatives have taken thirteen years to do what the last Attlee Government would have done if it had had another year in office. For thirteen years since then prices have risen annually. The fact that the Government has done the right thing now does not mean that the Conservatives' failure to do it before was anything but harmful to the economy as a whole".
If the Bill is right now, why did not the Conservative Party act many years ago?
If it is right now, why did the Government force the House of Commons to accept the 1956 Act, with its iniquitous Section 25, which gave power to manufacturers to insist that their prices were adhered to not only by the wholesaler, but the ultimate retailer, a power which exists in no other country but our own and a power which is quite medieval in its concept. If the Conservative Party believed in modernisation, and in passing
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the benefit of competition on to the consumer, it would have got on to this line a very long time ago. Frankly, I am not very impressed by this late conversion.
There ate several reasons why I am concerned about the way in which the Bill has been introduced. First, there are Clauses in it which are ill considered. Hon. Members opposite have pointed out how inadequate the drafting has been. Another aspect of the matter is that the Government are putting the decision on whether or not r.p.m. should continue in certain trades on to the judiciary. The Restrictive Practices Court will have to make the decisions. The Court is to be strengthened by more lawyers, but, apparently, it is not to be strengthened with enough laymen and economists, people who, we hope, would be able to bring the consumer's voice into the matter.
I do not believe that the Restrictive Practices Court is the body to decide on the issue, of resale price maintenance. The Board of Trade should make the decision. The Evening Standard wrote:
"The practice of handing over a political decision to the judiciary is becoming a common abuse today. It is entirely indefensible. Like those ostriches back in the Cabinet of 1962, the Government is simply leaving someone else to do is own dirty work."
The Evening Standard is absoutely right.
The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) referred to the interesting experience of men who beat their wives. What he did not make clear about the Bill is that it will allow the man to go on beating his wife until the wife or some other person is allowed to make an appeal against it. In fact, resale price maintenance will continue in all cases in which an appeal takes place before the court and, as a result, there is unlikely to be any effective breaking of r.p.m. for many months or even years. There will have to be the tedious process of appeal to the Court, and this will lead to a long delay of, perhaps, five or six years before the system is effectively broken.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: It is fair to make this distinction, is it not, that a wife cannot change her husband with the same facility that a consumer can change his brand? If the consumer does not wish to buy a brand subject to resale price maintenance he will have, in a

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large number of cases, the alternative of buying a brand which is not subject to it.
Mr. Stonehouse: That is not entirely so because, in many goods, there is a common understanding to apply resale price maintenance to all commodities. This applies particularly to cars, electrical accessories for cars and hardware.
The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury referred to the Reports of the Monopolies Commission. Here I agree with him. The Monopolies Commission condemned r.p.m. in very strong terms. We have it condemned in relation to wallpaper. We have it condemned in the Report on electrical equipment for motor vehicles at pages 364 and 365, where there is a very careful analysis of the case put up for price fixing and that case is entirely demolished. The Monopolies Commission took six years to produce its Report, and it came out with a clear recommendation that the practice of resale price maintenance on these goods should be terminated by all suppliers of such goods.
Are we to understand that, although the Monopolies Commission has given this clear condemnation of resale price maintenance, the matter is to be referred to yet another tribunal, namely, the Restrictive Practices Court, before the practice is discontinued?
This is a time-wasting procedure. The Board of Trade should have been honest enough to accept the recommendations of the Monopolies Commission on wallpaper and electrical appliances for cars and on the other commodities in regard to which it is strong enough to make up its mind and to instruct suppliers to discontinue the practice forthwith.
We have heard precious little in the debate about the interests of the consumer. A great deal has been said about the interests of the small shopkeeper. I consider that it is the interest of the consumer which should be paramount in all this. When I introduced my Bill, some time ago, I received a tremendous amount of correspondence from pressure groups. In particular, I had documents from the P.A.T.A., which speaks on behalf of chemists. The same organisation recently sent a document to all Members of the House which, I think, shows that
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its case is feeble, flimsy and anaemic. It seems to believe that the reiteration of a slogan is a substitute for argument. When one boils down its case, it amounts to this, that wholesale pharmaceutical dealers are entitled to a reasonable profit. They are, apparently, the ones, who must determine with their suppliers what that profit shall be. It is an arbitrary determination. That is entirely indefensible.
The second point which they made—the hon. Member for Putney also made it today—is that because the chemists are an essential part of the National Health Service, and depend on price-maintained commodities to make a reasonable profit, price maintenance must continue so that they can continue to supply drugs and to dispense prescriptions under the National Health Service. This is entirely wrong. A chemist should not be subsidised in his work by the buyers of cameras or roll films. The people who buy these commodities should not have to subsidise the Health Service.
Some of the more interesting correspondence which I received came from consumers. I should like to read a letter which I had from a consumer who wrote as follows:
"Dear Sir,
Thank you very much for trying to bring about an end to price fixing. I feel very strongly about this. I am a working man's wife trying to manage on a very small wage and out of it having to meet the very high prices. I am enclosing for you a small ticket which came on a toy sewing machine I purchased just before Christmas. This I bought for my little grand-daughter who, by the way, is suffering from a muscular complaint and had she not been longing so much for this I should certainly have returned it and demanded my money back. The sewing machine was the Vulcan and I consider profits like this a disgrace and the sooner you put this Tory lot on the dole the better. When I think of how much I had to sacrifice to pay this big profit to the big people for a toy for a poor little invalid child. I truly feel ashamed to belong to the human race; and I hope you at least will send this ticket to the wholesaler in question. Again, thank you for trying to help us, and you know where our vote will be".
My correspondent encloses a slip which is from L. Rees and Co. Ltd., of 31–35 Wilson Street, London, E.C.2. This shows that this commodity cost the retailer 24s. It was sold at 52s. 6d., which is a gross mark-up of 112 per cent. The profit to the retailer on this toy machine is 27s. 6d.
I agree that that is an exception. Many commodities are not sold with a 100 per cent. mark-up, but many are sold with a considerable mark-up and I should like to quote a few. A Sunbeam cycle is sold for £9 19s. 6d. The markup is £2 17s. 3d. The retail price of a Triang car is £6 5s. The margin is £1 15s, 5d. The Bex Bissell Shampoomaster—I have given this example to the House before—allows a mark-up of over 80 per cent. to the retailer.
There are many other examples, but I do not want to quote all of them. They range from hardware and furniture to clothing and many other examples showing mark-ups of between 50 and 100 per cent. on the original buying price. This may be a fair price in a department store, where a service is provided, but it is not a fair price in a self-service store or discount house in which the customer helps himself. The point which should be made on behalf of the consumer is that he is entitled to choose the sort of service that he wants. If he wants a reduced service in a self-service store or discount house, he is entitled to get the price reduction which should come with it. In all the examples on my list, the margin could be cut by 50 per cent. in a self-service store.
Examples have been quoted from other countries to show that where r.p.m. has been abolished, prices have gone up. I beg to differ with those examples. Sweden has been a case in point. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) genuinely believes that prices have gone up in Sweden. As I have seen from experience, however, the customer in Sweden can choose, not only in the centre of the towns but also in the countryside, whether he or she goes to an expensive store or to a cut-price store or discount house where goods can be bought at cut rates. There are discount houses, for example, on the outskirts of Stockholm where dry goods or non-food commodities are sold with a 10 or 15 per cent. mark-up compared with the 50, 60 or 75 per cent. mark-up of the department store.
In Sweden, the United States and other countries, discount-store type selling has been growing and the customer benefits because he or she is able to choose what sort of service they want. If they choose
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to get service which is not as good as in the department store and take advantage of a cut price, they can do so.
I believe that we must have that sort of freedom for the customer in this country and encourage greater efficiency in retailing. This, in turn, would bring pressure to bear upon the manufacturers, who in many fields—the Reports of the Monopolies, Commission confirm this—have become slothful because they can rely on a guaranteed consumer market and do not have pressure coming up at them from the retailer to reduce their prices.
I believe that there will be benefits in efficiency in retailing and efficiency also in producing if the principle of the Bill is implemented, but I regret the way in which the Bill has been introduced and the ill-considered way in which it has been presented to the House. I hope, however, that before long, after we have won the General Election, it will be possible for us on this side to do something effective to achieve efficiency in retailing and to protect the consumer.
8.47 p.m.
Major Sir Frank Markham: This is one of those rare occasions in the history of our Parliamentary democracy when the Conservative Party is split. It has often been said from the other side of the House that the Tories are stupid but united. We are not as stupid as we look, and occasionally we are not as united as we look.
When there is a division in the Conservative Party, it goes down to very deep roots. In the past, in the divisions that I can remember—for example, on Suez and on the Common Market—deep roots were being disturbed. The same is true of today's Bill. Part of the shock to the party derives from a sudden, inexplicable change on the part of the Board of Trade as recently as January this year.
Let us look at our own Tory history in this matter of resale price maintenance. At the last election, many of us throughout the land could give pledges to some of our most earnest workers and keenest questioners that the Tory Party would not interfere with resale price maintenance. We could do that or the authority not only of the

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Lloyd Jacob Report but of speeches in the House of Commons by men of the distinction of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) and my right hon. Friend who is now Minister of Defence. Indeed, several Cabinet Ministers said, not only in the House but in the country during the election campaign of 1959, that a Conservative Government had no intention of altering the existing resale price maintenance.
I was pledged, as were many other hon. Members on this side of the House. Indeed, no hint was given of any change, not even as recently as the Queen's Speech of November, 1963. Not a hint was given that anything was brewing either in the Board of Trade or in the Government or that a change was on the way. Still more recently, the "bible" of the party, the fighting war book, the "Campaign Guide", published only a few weeks ago, devoted only two paragraphs to resale price maintenance, very meek and mild and more or less indicating that it was worth while continuing with it.
Into this stream we suddenly got a decision by the Secretary of State that a Bill would be introduced to abolish resale price maintenance, and this—and I put it down as a charge against him—without any consultation with any of the usual bodies like the 1922 Committee of the Conservative Party in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] This is very important.
If the Government want to change policy, surely the first thing they should do is to approach their own supporters —through the normal channels on this side, and hon. Members opposite of course have their own organisation. If the Secretary of State had done that, if he had come to the 1922 Committee or called a special meeting of the party's Trade and Industry Committee and said, "This is what we propose. What is your opinion and advice?" we should have been glad to have co-operated in the drafting of a Bill.
But there was no choice of that at all, and in consequence the Secretary of State must bear the charge of rocking the Conservative boat pretty badly at a very delicate time. We are described as rebels because we are adhering to
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policies which have been worked out in the past and have been reaffirmed consistently. We are not rebels. The rebels are on that Front Bench and in the Cabinet. It is they who have changed consistent Conservative policy adopted and approved over the years.
What will be the consequence of the Bill? The Secretary of State made it clear that one of his objectives is to reduce the numbers working in the shops. Obviously, he cannot do that, by dismissing workers in individual shops because already shopkeepers large and small review their staffs with a fine toothcomb at every opportunity. The staff numbers are not excessive in relation to the number of shops. The Secretary of State can only achieve his purpose of reducing the numbers in the retail trade by achieving directly or indirectly a reduction in the number of shops, perhaps a large reduction. How can he secure the extra competition which he says he wants if he reduces the number of shops? He will, instead, increase the little local monopolies.
The first product of the Bill will be to reduce the number of shops, especially in the small towns and villages, creating monopoly shops in their stead. There is no doubt that the Bill, if successful —and I do not think that the House will let it go through in its present form—will drive many small traders into bankruptcy, leaving others to charge whatever prices they can get. I believe that the small trader is a very valuable asset to this country and that we have the best distributive system in the world. The public has an absolutely free choice as between the little man around the corner, the large store, the supermarket and the great departmental store with its opulence and display.
This Bill strikes at the little man. It eases him out because, as the Secretary of State has said, the little man somehow or other is redundant to the Secretary of State's pattern of what the future should be. I stand here not just for the small trader, who is a very necessary part of the British picture. I stand here for the consumer as well. It is the interests of the consumers which are being attacked by the Bill. There will be much less choice of retailer and no possible way in which prices can be reduced.

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I now refer to the Clause dealing with loss-leadership. I have already pointed this out to the Secretary of State upstairs—I could not get any answer from him, and I will see if I can get an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I am certain that he knows far more about economics than does the Secretary of State. The Bill defines a loss-leader as anything which is sold at less than cost. Any tradesman, any local ironmonger, knows that he can display loss-leaders by the dozen and still sell at something above his net cost. A loss-leader is made a loss-leader not by selling below cost but by a diminution of discount. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has much greater knowledge, frankly to tell the House that the Clause as drafted would make permanent and legalise loss-leaders in a way which no other Measure could. It will basically legalise the loss-leader, because any trader would be able to say that his discount was 15 or 20 or 25 per cent. and so long as he sold at just a fraction above his invoice costs he would be acting, perfectly legally.
But that is not my main complaint. I have already made the point that I and my colleagues are not the rebels; the rebels are on the Treasury Front Bench. It is they who have rebelled against good sound policies which have served this nation well, and it is they who are now diverging from good practices into the unknown: a divergence that will sacrifice many little tradesmen. It is they who are changing Conservative policy and it is we who are sticking to the good line that has been tried out so successfully for a generation or so.
My main objection to the Bill has been echoed by hon. Member after hon. Member. One of the interesting things in the debate has been that hon. Members speaking in favour of the Bill, like my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), have said that although they approve of the Bill they want to change root and branch at least three of the major Clauses. The major Clause in my view is that dealing with the onus of proof.
Time and again, individually and collectively, we have asked the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade to modify this provision. He has refused every time. I and those associated with
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me find this Clause the biggest stumbling block of all. It has been traditional in Britain that a man or a firm is innocent until proved guilty. The onus of proof Clause lays it down that a firm is assumed to be guilty unless it can prove that it is not acting to the public detriment; and it will cost a firm £25,000 or more to defend itself.
I find that shocking. I know that there is one precedent for it, and I know that the Secretary of State has hung on grimly to this precedent as if it were an angelic lifeline from the depths of hell. But there is no reason why there should be this distortion of our traditional English practices. Unless the Secretary of State or the Chancellor of the Exchequer can assure us that this onus of proof Clause will be amended and that in all these matters of trade, as in other respects, a man or firm will be regarded as innocent until proved guilty, I and my colleagues will divide the House tonight. It may well be that there will only be a dozen or so of us going into the Noes Lobby and only a score absta ning, but we know from talks which we have had in the country and upstairs that the great heart of our party is dead against the Secretary of State on this Measure, and I hope that it will be defeated.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: Time does not permit me to follow the hon. Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham), but I do not accept what he said about the onus of proof. I welcome the Bill, though I hope that people will not confuse support for it with outright opposition to the small man.
My attitude to the Bill is vicarious. Some of its features appeal, for I think that they will assist the retail revolution which is long overdue in this country. Resale price maintenance has undoubtedly held back retail innovations like the American discount store. On the other hand, it must be recognised—and I do not think that the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade faced this this afternoon—that intense price competition will force some small shops which still remain in the High Street, notably the hardware stores, into other parts of the town. This will not mean an end of the small shopkeeper. On the contrary, I think that

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the Bill will oblige the small man to think out new ways of proving his usefulness in the modern economy. Small shopkeepers can do much for themselves through collective action.
On the other hand, small shopkeepers should not regard their rôle in r.p.m. as entirely passive and entitling them to the undiluted sympathy of the public. Many manufacturers would be happy, especially in the present state of over-capacity, to sell to discounters and orthodox retailers alike. But some suppliers who offer their goods to cut-price retailers find that their other shopkeeper-customers refuse to display, or even to stock their goods.
Incredibly enough, according to Which, of September, 1961, the Yorkshire Evening Post was even under pressure from some of its advertisers not to accept advertisements of cut prices on behalf of the Grandways discount store, in Leeds, and I am sorry that it spinelessly submitted to that pressure.
Much could and should have been done in the field of distribution in recent years, given the revolutionary changes which have taken place. Yet in this modern world of bewildering variety, controlled to an increasing degree by large companies and powerful trade associations, the consumer, the housewife, has stood almost alone, and the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade seemed to recognise that only this afternoon when he said that the consumer needs a certain basic protection, and that the Government would provide it.
My major criticism of the Bill is that it has come several years too late, so the test that I apply to it is not whether it will make for a reduction in prices, but how soon? The Bill is, therefore, to be criticised less on its scope than on its timing, and on the ground that it provides for exemptions. There is no question but that if the right hon. Gentleman and the Bill are to be taken seriously the onus of proof must be on the supplier.
But in so far as the right to maintain prices will remain until an appeal to the tribunal has been heard, the new legislation will not be effective for many months and perhaps not for more than a year to come, because manufacturers who apply to retain r.p.m. will be able
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to enforce it until the Court has given its decision. This should be reversed, if only for the sake of the Court. Evidence of the effect which the abolition of resale price maintenance would have would be far more convincing than mere speculation as to what might happen if it were abolished.
Secondly, how will the tribunal interpret its terms of reference? Thirdly, loopholes will be found in the new Act as quickly as they were found in the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956. Finally, exemptions should be kept to an absolute minimum. If the Bill is tightened along those lines it will ensure that any reduction in distribution costs is reflected in prices.
I do not accept the finding of hon. Members, including those of some of my hon. Friends, in their research forays in other countries. Price movements depend so much on the general economic framework and not just on retail profit margins that international comparisons can be misleading. Comparisons before and after retail price maintenance are very difficult to establish when the secular movement of prices is upward. The simple logic of the matter is that since costs vary widely between retailers because of differences in buying ability, salesmanship, higher efficiency, administrative skill and location, it is reasonable to suppose that lower costs reflecting higher efficiency will be translated into lower prices.
If we are to be guided by American experience it is clear that new techniques of selling can lead to large reductions in distributive costs. Lower prices are not the only benefit which is likely to accrue. A wider range of choice, which is just as important to the housewife, will probably result.
Let us assume that price cuts, even of the magnitude forecast by Professor Yamey, are unlikely to follow the abolition of r.p.m., or that they will not persist. There is still a need for experiment in the kind of low price retailing that has swept the United States. Far too much investment has taken place in distribution in this country recently for us to go on being indifferent to its yield. We shall get this only if legislation of this kind is passed—although I would have preferred it to be more positive and less watered down.
9.6 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: My first duty is to congratulate the hon. Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge (Mr. Stainton) on what all who heard it will regard as a remarkable maiden speech. I am sorry that he is not here now to hear me say this. I thoroughly enjoyed his speech. But, like me, he may have to work very hard to make his second speech as good as his first. We shall all enjoy hearing him for a second time.
I almost feel like apologising for intervening in the debate. A great argument has been going on among hon. Members opposite, and I feel that perhaps I should not have come into the debate. The Conservative side is split and confused, and the confusion goes much deeper than is evidenced by what they have said today. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) and other hon. Members opposite have had a row with each other, but their differences go much deeper than might be thought.
When the Chancellor replies to the debate shortly he must answer not only the hon. Member for Rugby and other hon. Members opposite, but some of his colleagues in the Government. The present Minister of Defence, who is not here now—no doubt out of a sense of self-preservation—put himself on record when he was President of the Board of Trade as saying:
"There have been some criticisms that the new legal right of suppliers"—
that is, the right to defend themselves under the present Act"—
"goes too far…"
I see that the right hon. Gentleman has now entered the Chamber. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The cheers of hon. Members opposite shows how worried they were lest he did not arrive.
When he was President of the Board of Trade he put himself on record as saying:
"There have been some criticisms that the new legal right of suppliers goes too far and gives a force to resale price maintenance which should not be there. I have defended it and will, if necessary, defend it again."
The Bill destroys this. Which of the two right hon. Gentlemen is for it?
The right hon. Gentleman went even further. He said:
"I accept the Lloyd Jacob contention that there are solid, respectable economic argu-
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ments in favour of the right of the individual manufacturer to preserve his contract over prices right down the line…"[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th May, 1956; Vol. 552, c. 1063–73.]
I am prepared to give way to the right hon. Gentleman. Does he still take that line?
This non-understanding goes far beyond the hon. Member for Rugby. Ministers and the Government do not know where they stand on this matter. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer answers in a minute or two, for whom will he be answering? For himself? For his rival? For the Minister of Defence—who is nobody's rival? For whom will he be answering?
Sir Cyril Osborne: What about your rival?
Mr. G. Brown: No, there are no rivals on this side of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The point is that there is nobody on that side who can possibly say for which point he stands on this argument about the freedom of the manufacturer or the distributor There is not a Minister who can do so. They have all committed themselves to different positions.
As we have listened today, what have we heard? We have heard the—Lord President is it?—the Secretary of State for this, that and the other—over-selling the Bill. Everyone knows that the right hon. Gentleman is over-selling it. The Bill is not that big. It will not do what he said it would do. I suspect that at the end of the day it will have an effect upon prices but, at the end of the day, how much of an effect upon prices? It will be marginal. My guess is that it will be in favour of the consumer, but it will be marginal and the time is a long way off before it will affect anybody.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested that it would be a rather powerful Bill in favour of the consumer. It is a little "tiddler" of a Bill. The Bill has its own defects. I have never heard the answer to the question why the retailers should not have a right of appeal. They could be put out of business. They could be upset by the arrangements. Why should not they be able to appeal? There is no provision in the Bill for workers whose business may also be affected, and why should not they have the right to initiate appeals?

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The Bill provides no real arrangement for dealing with loss-leaders. There is no arrangement for the loss-leader practice to be shut off. I am not at all clear why we should have two years' continuation of a practice which the right hon. Gentleman says is wrong, before we shut it off. Why should it be, if the practice is wrong, that we should continue it for two years and then start a new appeal procedure at that point? So the Bill has its own inbuilt defects. At the same time, as we know, it will not really contribute very much at all to cutting down the cost of living.
Just as the case for the Bill is exaggerated, as I believe it was by the right hon. Gentleman, so the case against it is exaggerated. We have heard from the hon. Member for Rugby and others the case for the shopkeepers. This, also, is exaggerated. We all accept that shopkeepers, like other people, are entitled to a decent standard of living, but the point is that shopkeepers render a service to the public, not the other way round. The public does not owe them a service. I have a feeling that the case against the Bill is as overstated as is the case in favour of the Bill.
Our feeling on this side of the House is that we ought to make life easier for the consumer. There is no question but that the consumer is being held to ransom in a number of ways. I have a feeling that this Bill, marginally, will help her. Clearly, all the consumer associations have expressed themselves as being in favour of the Bill for the marginal gain it will make. If the Bill were a part of a real integrated attack upon the things for which the consumer is over-charged I should be for it, but it is not that. There is no integrated attack upon inefficiency in industry, upon the power of monopoly in industry, upon the restrictive parts of industry. It is not part of that at all.
What have we had over some years now? We have had a period of dallying by the Government. They themselves, in 1956, weakened the Measures we left behind us to deal with monopolies and restrictive practices—[HON. MEMBERS: "Read your brief."] There is no brief here. They have failed to follow up the attacks which either the Monopolies Commission or the Restrictive Practices
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Court have made on these restrictions. They failed to follow up and deal with them. There has been no encouragement to industry to make itself more efficient. There have been no penal arrangements on those parts of industry which did not make themselves efficient.
The House saw last week in the Observer an article about the "Half-Stretched Country". [HON. MEMBERS: "In the Sunday Times."] Clearly, the House has seen it. There has been no effort by the Government to deal with this. The Bill, which is an attempt to deal with prices, could be a part of an entire attack on the whole field. If it were part of an attack on the whole field, of an attack on prices, inefficiency, restrictive practices and monopoly, it would have a part to play, but on its own it has no part to play.
Hon. Members: Get on with it.
Mr. Brown: Speaking in the House at this hour is always a problem. [Laughter.] Right hon. Gentlemen opposite know that to be true.
A Bill to deal with prices could be part of a major attack in this field if that attack were directed at inefficiency in industry, the monopoly power of industry, and if it were really serious business. However, the Bill stands by itself, fits into no pattern and is rather a small business which leads us nowhere at all. The reason why it does not get us anywhere is that the Conservative Party has its own paymasters on the benches opposite.
We should be going after monopolies, take-overs and mergers. [HON. MEMBERS: "And unions."] Yes. If we were doing all of these things we would be going after them, too. If hon. Members opposite were willing to deal with mergers, take-overs and monopolies, I would be willing to talk to my friends about restrictive practices on our side.
Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of Thanet) rose——
Mr. Brown: I will give way.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Brown: I cannot be expected to ask my friends to deal with the mote in their eyes when hon. Members opposite, who have all the power, refuse to deal with the beam in their eyes.
Mr. Rees-Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman say that if we are prepared to deal across the board with these matters he will be prepared to advise——[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. If we cannot hear the hon. Gentleman's intervention it will be, unduly prolonged as an intervention in the right hon. Member's speech.
Mr. Rees-Davies: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say that he would advise his colleagues opposite that the time is now right when we should have an inquiry into the whole range of trade union law and into restrictive practices on both sides, management and labour, with the setting up of a Proper court of inquiry?
Mr. Brown: That is exactly what I was saying. If the Government were prepared not to try to deal with prices by themselves and not to attempt to deal with the small shopkeeper by himself, but were really willing to deal with restrictive practices right across the board—including rents, interest rates and capital gains—then, speaking as a trade union official, I would be prepared to take it right across the board. But the Government have so far refused to do this. They throw in this Bill, which sets the little people who are shopkeepers against the little people who are housewives and leaves alone the big people, who are free. This is the whole point.
If the Bill were part of a wide attack upon monopoly power, upon restrictionism in industry, of an attempt to modernise industry and distribution, it would have its part to play, but it would have to be amended to do it. We shall, therefore, table Amendments in Committee.
I cannot say that we will vote against the Bill. On the other hand, it is not big enough to mean anything by itself. The Government put it forward just by itself. It is not part of a big attack on the issue. [An HON. MEMBER: "You are becoming tired."] It is becoming almost impossible to make a speech at this time of night, in view of the conduct of hon. Members opposite. The Bill is not, as some have claimed, a housewives' charter, nor is it a shopkeepers' disaster, as other hon. Members opposite have
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claimed. It is neither. It is not part of a real attempt to modernise industry or give the consumer a fair deal; by itself, it is very meagre.
If we could suitably amend the Bill—we will try to do so in Committee—it could be part of a drive to modernise industry. It could be part of a drive not only to modernise industry, but to bring reinforcement to distribution and give the British way of life a boost. As it stands, it is a muddle. It is quite clear that the Government cannot and will not make an attack on the real problems that face industry at this time..
Therefore we cannot vote with them. We can simply say to the country that the Government are playing a charade. They are playing a piece of miming. They go through with this business of the Bill, which will not reduce any prices for a very long while to come, awaiting the time when a Government will plan and organise to bring down prices and allocate resources. In due course we will do that. Until then we shall watch the game which is being played by the Tories by means of this rather unimportant and unrealistic Bill, which it is alleged, will reduce prices.
9.29 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I will start by joining with the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge (Mr. Stainton) on an excellent maiden speech, in which he set before the House a great deal of knowledge and thought. I am sure that all of us, on a both sides, look forward very much to hearing my hon. Friend again taking part in our debates.
I listened carefully to the right hon. Member for Belper and to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). As far as I could gather—because they did not say much about the Bill—they seemed, on the whole, to be in favour of this Measure. They talk about divisions on out side, but I am not so sure that there is altogether unanimity on their side. The hon. Lady the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet) did not seem to like the Bill, and the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) made a very powerful speech saying what a bad Bill it was and then finished up by saying that he would not vote against it. I

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congratulate the Opposition on this occasion on coming at least to the point of unanimous abstention on something its Front Bench supports.
The right hon. Gentleman described the Bill in the elegant phrase of its being a little tiddler, asked how much effect it would have on prices, and thought that the effect would take too long to be achieved. I take it, therefore, that the party opposite would like a far more vigorous Bill coming into effect far more quickly. [Interruption.]
Turning to the case for the Bill, I would say that it is an integral part of our whole economic policy [Interruption.] I would not support it if that were not the case. I will not stress the importance of economic policy in these circumstances, but I will stress, as did my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald), the importance of efficiency for the country. The limitation on our economy of rather slow growth in our population and also limitations on raw materials mean that we must have maximum productivity throughout the economy.
In a country in which more and more, year by year, our resources of manpower, in particular, are being used in distribution, efficiency in distribution is clearly just as important as efficiency in production. In both cases, we must follow policies designed to increase capital investment in modern machinery and designed to improve the organisation and methods of industry. Therefore, we need a system that gives people the incentive to invest in new machinery and methods and also enables the benefit of those new methods and that new machinery to be passed on to the consumer in lower prices. That is the basic Purpose of the Bill.
We all recognise—I think that it is a commonplace amongst us—the need to keep down costs and prices. And I believe that we now have a very reasonable chance, if we seize it sensibly, of getting a very reasonable stability of prices. The recent announcement by the Director-General of the N.E.D.C. about prices in some basic industries is particularly important. But for this purpose it is most important for the benefits of efficiency and new methods to be passed on to the consumer in lower prices.
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A little while ago I saw a letter in The Times from a small retailer, and I thought that it went right to the heart of the whole problem. He said:
"I fully appreciate that the big stores buy very large quantities. I think they are entitled to buy more cheaply and I would not mind paying 11½d. for a recognised 1s. article, even if the big stores got it for 8d. But to take advantage of big buying to put that article up to sale at, say, 9d. because of big buying is not fair."
I think that is at the heart of the whole problem. If the big organisations, or more efficient organisations, can buy something for 8d., as the writer says, for which he has had to pay 11½d., why should they be compelled to take the extra 4d. profit? Why should they not be able to pass to the consumer the benefit of their more efficient bulk buying? This surely is the basic economic argument.
Mrs. Corbet Mrs. Corbet rose——
Mr. Maudling: I am sorry, my time is very short.
Mr. Padley: I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to give way.
Mr. Maudling: I have a consecutive argument to give and hon. Members have addressed the House.
Mr. Padley: There is no such commodity in Britain as that mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Maudling: There is certainly such a letter. It comes from a retailer. This really is the essence of the problem which we all see—that the techniques and systems of modern distribution can produce great economies in the hands of the person who is going to sell to the public. If so, why should he not pass on to the public the benefits of his own efficiency? Does the party opposite really want him to retain those benefits entirely for himself? This is the whole difficulty.
Mr. Padley Mr. Padley rose——
Mr. Maudling: I listened to the hon. Member. Perhaps he will be kind enough to listen to me. I heard his point about grocers, and the writer of this letter is a grocer. The point is that in the grocery trade we have seen a very good example of how greater efficiency

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can lead to lower prices without a reduction in the retail margins of the grocer concerned. These are the figures. The hon. Member gave them earlier.
Mr. D. Jones: Play the game and give way.
Mr. Maudling: Hon. Members do not want to listen to arguments. I do not think that the shopkeepers who are concerned with this matter will be impressed by the loud noises of the Opposition. They are more concerned with the argument.
Mr. Jones: We have had plenty of noise from the other side of the House.
Mr. Maudling: Here is the substance of the problem. A small retailer says, "I recognise that someone else is in a position to sell cheaper than I can, but is it fair that he should do so?". We must resolve the problem of passing to the consumer the benefits of modern methods of retailing without affecting the small man, and through the Bill and, for example, in the grocery trade where the breakdown of r.p.m. has brought about new methods of distribution and greater efficiency, we see the answer to this problem.
I was talking about the need to stimulate efficiency in our economy. There are two different points of view about how this should be done. The party opposite believes in central control, nationalisation and direction. Through many speeches from the benches opposite, from the speech of the right hon. Member for Battersea. North to that of the hon. Member for Ogmore, there beat quite clearly the desire to control prices by Statute. This is their idea. If they believe in the control of prices by Statute and they believe in nationalisation, let them say so. We believe in competition. The party opposite may perhaps have observed that the difficulties which we have been encountering in the course of the Bill are precisely because we believe in competition.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Would the right hon. Gentleman, who was at the Board of Trade part of the time, tell us why a party which believes in competition took seven years to get that report on batteries and motor components?
Mr. Maudling: Because it was being done by an impartial body. I suppose that the party opposite would tell the Monopolies Commission how to do it, how quickly to do it, and what to say.
The point about the comparative treatment of monopolies, restrictive practices and resale price maintenance made by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North is not, with respect, a sound one. We must not make a confusion between size and restriction. It is a very good thing for a is country to have a large number of big units in industry. In the modern world, with modern competition, with all the giants of America and the Continent of Europe, everyone knows perfectly well that large units are desirable. But, under our rather strange definition of monopoly, any firm which has one-third of the market is called a monopoly. I remember once an hon. Member opposite complaining about the terrible competition of the giant monopolies—a strange situation.
In our monopolies legislation, we do not assume that mere size is a bad thing in itself. What we do say is that if size is used to restrict new ideas, keep up profit margins and eliminate competition, that is something to be dealt with. This is exactly how the Monopolies Commission works. This is the whole idea of the thing and how it always has worked. When we come to practices designed to restrict competition or artificially to keep up prices, we have the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, which laid down as a principle that restrictions of this kind among manufacturers are undesirable unless, in particular cases, they can be shown before a court to be a good thing.
This is precisely the principle we are following in regard to resale price maintenance. People ask, "Why are you now dealing with the retailers? Why do not you deal with the manufacturers?" The answer is that we dealt with them eight years ago. In the 1956 Act, we dealt with the restrictive practices of manufacturers. At this stage, we are dealing similarly with restrictions in retailing. [Interruption.] The party opposite may not like these arguments, but they are true.
We have had many objections today to the Bill. First, it was argued by my

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hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. Wise) that prices would go up, not down, as a result of more competition. This seems to be contrary to both logic and experience. People do compete by reducing prices. Overseas experience shows that competition has reduced prices. Experience in the grocery trade, for instance, shows the same. Although motor cars are, theoretically, price-maintained, we all know that if one wishes to trade in a second-hand car one can, by shopping around a bit, get a better price for one's second-hand car.
In any case, those who argue that prices or profit margins will not go down with the abolition of resale price maintenance cannot at the same time argue that the small man will be ruined. They cannot have it both ways.
Mr. Padley Mr. Padley rose——
Mr. Maudling: Apparently, some people still want it both ways.
Mr. Padley: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that both the small shopkeeper and the consumer can get the worst of it if advertising expenses go up, if stamp traders come into the business and if middlemen and wholesalers come in driving up the cost to the consumer and, at the same time, damaging the retailer?
Mr. Maudling: I know nothing of the sort, and all the practice and evidence I have seen is to the contrary. One cannot, at one and the same time, argue that prices will go up and that people who are retailing will be ruined.
I think that the second argument has much more force than the first. I do not believe that there is any reason to suppose that prices will go up if there is more competition. All the evidence is that prices will come down. There is a far more substantial case to be made for saying that if prices come down it may create difficulty for some people in business.
The argument put forward for saying that prices will go up is linked with the suggestion that if r.p.m. is abolished the small man will disappear, as some of my hon. Friends have said, and that the big people will take over and establish a monopoly. I remember very well the
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arguments about the Restrictive Trade Practices Act and the position of manufacturers. It was said then that if we abolished restrictive arrangements the little man would be abolished and the big man would take over. It was said that if we had a restrictive practices Act there would be widespread unemployment. Someone said to me, "If you pass this Measure the yield to the Government from Profits Tax will fall by 25 or 30 per cent.".
All these things were said about the 1956 Act which was designed to bring and which has brought more competition into manufacturing. It has not been enough, I agree; that is why my right hon. Friend will stiffen it up. None of these predictions have happened. All the doleful consequences which we were told would follow have not followed.
Mr. Cyril Bence: Why do prices keep going up?
Mr. Maudling: We can argue tomorrow about why prices keep going up. I shall have a few things to say about the reasons for that.
The argument that the abolition of r.p.m. will lead to monopolies is surely least likely to be true in retailing where the number of different outlets, different methods of sale and differences in product is so great. There is clear evidence in this country from the figures that the existence or non-existence of r.p.m. does not affect the trend towards large or small business. Looking at the figures of retailing, it is clear that the sales of the independents in retailing generally across the country have fallen in the last ten years from something over 60 per cent. to nearly 50 per cent. These falls have occurred both in trades which have been practising r.p.m. and in trades which have not been practising r.p.m. Experience in both has been very much the same. My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) called particular attention to this.
Take, for example, the particular position of the grocery trade, which is interesting, because there in recent years we have seen a clear and definite collapse of r.p.m. on branded goods and we have had time to examine the effect which this has had on the position of

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the retail grocer. Certainly from all the figures which I have obtained his position has not worsened compared with the position of other traders who have had what they regard as the benefit of r.p.m. Take the figures of turnover from 1961 to 1963. In all kinds of businesses, independent traders show an increase from 100 to 105. Those trading in durable goods show an increase front 100 to 102; confectioners and tobacconists from 100 to 107; and grocers, where r.p.m. has collapsed, from 100 to 106. Looking throughout the main groups of the retail shops, recent experience shows clearly and consistently that the general trend is very much the same, whether r.p.m, has been in existence or not, or, as in the case of the grocery trade, has collapsed.
I should hope that these figures would give a good deal of comfort to many of the retailers who are feeling concerned for very genuine reasons—no one will deny that—but whose fears have sometimes been exaggerated and stimulated by some of the propaganda put up by particular people who are interested in the campaign and who are concerned about what is happening. It is not wise or right to exaggerate the difficulties which retailers will be facing. I accept that they have reason for concern; no one will deny that. At the same time, the figures clearly show that when r.p.m. has been abolished or has collapsed, as in the case of the grocery trade, bringing new methods and ideas into the organisation of wholesaling and retailing, the independent retailer is able to stand up in competition and is still able to pass on to the customer, as he wants to do and should do, the benefits of lower prices.
A number of other points have been raised. Loss-leading was referred to by many of my hon. Friends. I agree that the wording of Clause 3 wants looking at very carefully, because it is not easy to establish exactly the right position.
It is important that we should enable the full benefit of increased efficiency and lower costs to be passed on to the consumer. At the same time, we are prepared to ban selling at an actual loss. To go beyond this—doubtless it ill be considered at a later stage—in practical terms would be extremely difficult; but also it could lead us to the sort of posi-
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tion to which my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby referred when he would define loss-leading as selling below cost plus a certain profit margin. Surely, the point of the Bill is that we should not enshrine particular profit margins. We should try to bring pressure to bear upon profit margins by competition in the interests of efficiency wherever we can. I appreciate the difficulty here, and I am sure that it will be discussed. I warn my hon. Friend that if he tries to go beyond the definition in the Bill, it will be very difficult to do. [An HON. MEMBER: "He will have to do it."]
Then there is a question of particular exemptions. I am sure that it is right in the Bill, where we are providing for judicial determination of individual applications, not to provide for particular exemptions. The purpose of the Bill is to lay down a general principle which should be of application to the economy and the distribution system as a whole and then to provide that the Court should decide whether in any given instance there is a case for special treatment.
The reasons which can be advanced to the Court for special treatment, which are set out in the Bill, are the main reasons which are normally argued by the advocates of r.p.m.: a possible reduction of quality and variety of goods, a possible reduction of retail outlets and a possible reduction in the number or availability of necessary services.
Mr. Stone house: Will the Court be strengthened not only with lawyers but also with laymen and, perhaps, economists who can throw light on these points?
Mr. Maudling: The Court already has the necessary expert assistance, and that will be expanded. One of the strong points is the ability of the Restrictive Practices Court since the 1956 Act to make decisions on precisely these things.
To my hon. Friends who have advanced arguments on behalf of many different and legitimate interests, I would say that if the case on behalf of those people or products is so strong, as well it may be, surely they can rely upon the Court on the basis of its practice during the last few years to give full weight to those considerations and determine what is in the general interest. My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton)

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raised the point of people who have already been through either the Monopolies Commission or the Restrictive Practices Court. Those earlier determinations were on a different basis. Often they were against a rather different background and they were before Parliament had taken the determination, for which we are now asking, on the general principle of individual resale price maintenance.
One cannot, therefore, accept those decisions as conclusive either in condemning r.p.m. or enabling it to continue in any particular case. I feel confident that it is right not to make exceptions in the Bill, although it is important to ensure that those who have a real claim, and believe that they have one, should be able to put it before the Court.
The same is true of access to the court. Resale price maintenance is a right of a manufacturer. He applies the right to insist that someone else who buys from him does not sell his product below a certain point. Surely, the man who holds the right—the manufacturer —must be the man who must ask for permission to continue that right. It would not be proper or sensible to suggest that retailers should be in a position to press the manufacturer to ask for a right of restriction if he does not wish to do so. Certainly, combining to impose such a thing upon the manufacturer would be in contravention of Section 24 of the 1956 Act.
These are some of the main points that have been raised during the debate. This is both an economic and a human problem and in discussing the Bill this afternoon the House has been concerned with both the economic and the human aspects. There has been some special pleading by some industries or representatives. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey pointed out, some of the literature which has been circulated has been, on the whole, rather misleading.
I am sure that the House will ignore the special pleading and get down to the real argument, which is the fair treatment of the small retailer or trader in a world where size of itself it tending more and more to give economic benefits which should not be lost to the nation, but where these economic benefits to the
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nation should not completely override the genuine social position of the small man.
This really is the balance we are trying to hold under the Bill and which I believe we are establishing at the right point. Of course, many points remain to be considered in Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hope that the party opposite does not mind that. The question tonight is that of principle—whether we extend the freedom of price competition, which we have been establishing between manufacturers, into retailing. Do we want to maintain the barriers which exist at present to the use of new methods and the passing on of the benefits of new ideas to the consumer generally?
As I have said, the exceptions given in the Bill are wide and important. The arguments are whether there will be substantial loss of quality or variety to the consumer and substantial reductions in the number of retail outlets and in the necessary services. If any of these things can be shown, then, so long as the Court is convinced that the loss to the consumer thereby outweighs any benefit from the abolition of r.p.m., exemptions can be granted.
These surely are the arguments which have been advanced on behalf of r.p.m., and if its proponents are so strongly convinced of the strength of these arguments, they should have the confidence that the Court will also recognise that strength and give the necessary exemptions.
I ask those of my right hon. and hon. Friends who are thinking of voting against the Measure to consider what that means in the light of the provisions of the Bill. If we turned down the Bill either the consumer would suffer or the variety of goods would suffer or the shops and services available would suffer. If we do not pass the Bill we shall not give freedom to the retailers to pass on the economic benefits of better distribution which they can achieve, which is one of the things we want to do.
My hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead) quoted the letter of a grocer who wrote to him. In this Bill we must consider the right of the consumer as a whole. If it is in the interest of the consuming public as a

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whole, if it enables benefits of modern methods to be passed on, and if we include these defensive provisions for protection in particular circumstances of particular trades, then surely it must be in the national interest to pass the Bill.
I therefore appeal to the House to support the Second Reading. I say only one thing to my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby, who moved the Amendment very carefully, cogently and with great courtesy. He talked about the difficult choice which he must make and quoted Shakespeare. When he comes to make his decision I ask him to remember another quotation, from Hamlet:
"The friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;"
Question put, That "now" stand part of the Question:—
The House proceeded to a Division—
Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington) (seated and covered): On a point of order. Being unable to get into the Lobby owing to the press of hon. Members at the entrance to the Chamber, I was not able to vote. Have I any remedy for not being able to go into the Lobby to vote, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: I do not understand the hon. Member to be suggesting that there was any improper obstruction of his presence, save by those who were seeking to do the same thing as he was. I do not think that any difficulty arises about that.
The House divided: Ayes 287, Noes 20.

Division No. 42.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Agnew, Sir Peter

Cooke, Robert

Gresham Cooke, R,

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Cooper, A. E.

Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

Allason, James

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Grosvenor, Lord Robert

Arbuthnot, Sir John

Corfield, F. V.

Gurden, Harold

Ashton, Sir Hubert

Costain, A. P.

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Atkins, Humphrey

Coulson, Michael

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Balniel, Lord

Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Barber, Rt. Hon. Anthony

Crawley, Aidan

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Barlow, Sir John

Critchley, Julian

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Barter, John

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col- Sir Oliver

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere(Maccleef'd)

Batsford, Brian

Crowder, F. P.

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Cunningham, Sir Knox

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Bell, Ronald

Curran, Charles

Hastings, Stephen

Bennett, F, M. (Torquay)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hay, John

Bennett, Dr. Reginald(Gos & Fhm)

Dance, James

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Berkeley, Humphry

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Biffen, John

de Ferrand, Basil

Hendry, Forbes

Biggs-Davison, John

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Hicks Beach, Maj. W.

Bingham, R. M.

Drayson, G. B.

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

du Cann, Edward

Hobson, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Bishop, Sir Patrick

Duncan, Sir James

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Quintin

Bossom, Hon. Clive

Eden, Sir John

Holland, Philip

Bourne-Arton, A.

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Holt, Arthur

Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

Elliott, R. W. (Newc'tle-upon Tyne, N.)

Hooson, H. E.

Box, Donald

Emery, Peter

Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Hopkins, Alan

Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Errington, Sir Eric

Hornsby, R. P.

Braine, Bernard

Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

Brewis, John

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col.Sir Walter

Farr, John

Hughes-Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Fletcher-Cooko, Charles

Hughes-Young, Michael

Brown, Alan (Torrington)

Foster, Sir John

Hulbert, Sir Norman

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Fraser, Rt. Hon. Hugh (Stafford&Stone)

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Bryan, Paul

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Buck, Antony

Freeth, Denzil

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Bullard, Denys

Gatbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

James, David

Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

Gardner, Edward

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Butcher, Sir Herbert

George, Sir John (Pollok)

Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Gibson-Watt, David

Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

Campbell, Gordon

Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Carr, Rt. Hon. Robert (Mitcham)

Glover, Sir Douglas

Kershaw, Anthony

Cary, Sir Robert

Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

Kimball, Marcus

Channon, H. P. G.

Godber, Rt. Hon. J. B.

Kirk, Peter

Chataway, Christopher

Goodhart, Philip

Lagden, Godfrey

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Gower, Raymond

Lambton, Viscount

Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

Gram-Ferris, R.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Cleaver, Leonard

Green, Alan

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Studholme, Sir Henry

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

Summers, Sir Spenoer

Lilley, F.J.P.

Partridge, E.

Tapsell, Peter

Lindsay, Sir Martin

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Litchfield, Capt. John

Peel, John

Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

Percival, Ian

Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

Longbottom, Charles

Peyton, John

Temple, John M.

Longden, Gilbert

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Loveys, Walter H.

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

Pitman, Sir James

Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Pitt, Dame Edith

Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

McAdden, Sir Stephen

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. peter

MacArthur, Ian

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

McLaren, Martin

Prior, J. M, L.

Thorpe, Jeremy

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy(Bute&N. Ayrs)

Pym, Francis

Timer, John (Wavertree)

McLean, Neil (Inverness)

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

MacLeod, Sir John (Ross&Cromarty)

Ramsden, Rt. Hon. James

Turner, Colin

McMaster, Stanley R.

Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. Sir Peter

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Rees, Hugh (Swansea, w.)

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Maddan, Martin

Rees-Davies, W. R. (Isle of Thanot)

Vane, W. M. F.

Maitland, Sir John

Renton, Rt. Hon. David

Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon Sir John

Marlowe, Anthony

Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

Vickers, Miss Joan

Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

Ridsdale, Julian

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Marten, Neil

Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

Wade, Donald

Matthew, Robert (Honiton)

Robinson, Rt. Hn. sir R. (B'pool, S.)

Walder, David

Maude, Angus (Stratford-on-Avon)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Walker, Peter

Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Roots, William

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

Mawby, Ray

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Wall, Patrick

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Mills, Stratton

Russell, Sir Ronald

Webster, David

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Miscampbell, Norman

Scott-Hopkins, James

Whitelaw, William

Montgomery, Fergus

Shaw, M.

Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

Shepherd, William

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Skeet, T. H. H.

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Morrison, John

Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Neave, Airey

Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Woodhouse, C. M.

Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

Stainton, Keith

Woodnutt, Mark

Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Worsley, Marcus

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Stevens, Geoffrey

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Hendon, North)

Stoddart, J. A.

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Storey, Sir Samuel

Mr. Chichester-Clark and

Mr. Finlay.

NOES

Burden, F. A.

Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Clarke, Brig, Terence(Portsmth, W.)

Iremonger, T. L.

Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Talbot, John E.

Cordle, John

Jennings, J. C.

Ward, Dame Irene

Currie, G. B. H.

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Duthie, Sir William (Banff)

Kenyon, Clifford

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Hiley, Joseph

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Mr. Wise and Commander Kerans.

Hollingworth, John

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. MacArthur.]
Committee Tomorrow.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That the proceedings on the Industrial Training Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Selwyn Lloyd.]

RESALE PRICES [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
[Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to restrict the maintenance by contractual and other means of minimum resale prices in respect of goods supplied for resale in the United Kingdom, it is expedient to authorize—

(a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses under that
382
Act of the Registrar of Restrictive Trading Agreements, and any increase attributable to that Act in the sums required to be defrayed out of moneys so provided under section 35(1) of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1956;

(b) the charging on and issue out of the Consolidated Fund, and the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any increase in the sums required respectively to be so charged and issued or paid which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session increasing the maximum numbers of puisne judges of the High Court and judges of the Court of Session who may be appointed.—[Mr. du Cann.]

Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

INDUSTRIAL TRAINING BILL
Lords Amendments considered.
INDUSTRIAL TRAINING BILL

  Clause 7.—(PROPOSALS FOR EXERCISE OF BOARD'S FUNCTIONS AND FOR LEVIES.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 7, line 15, leave out from "board" to end of line 16 and insert:
  "during such period, not exceeding six months, as may elapse before new members are appointed".
  10.15 p.m.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. J. B. Godber): I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
  This Amendment limits to six months the period for which a person authorised by the Minister may act in the place of members of a board which has been declared in default. This point was raised in another place, and it seemed to us that there was substance in it. We are happy to insert these words to replace the words suggested originally.
  Mr. R. E. Prentice: This Amendment was suggested in another place by Lord Lindgren. This is one of the many ways in which members of the Opposition in both Houses, by their vigilance, have been able to make improvements in the Bill. We support the Amendment. We would all agree that the powers in Clause 7 should be regarded as reserve powers, and we hope that they will never need to be used. But they are there as an alternate sanction for the Minister, and in that context a six months' limit is probably about right.
  Question put and agreed to.

  New Clause "A".—(POWER OF INDUS- TRIAL TRAINING BOARD WITH RESPECT TO TRAINING FOR EMPLOYMENT OVERSEAS.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 12, line 21, at end insert new Clause "A":
  "A.—(1) If the Minister so requests, an industrial training board may exercise such functions in connection with the training for employment in any activity of industry or commerce carried on outside Great Britain of persons temporarily in Great Britain as are exercisable by it under subsections (1) and (4) of section 2 of this Act in connection with the
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  training of persons employed or intending to be employed in the industry for which the board is established.
  (2) An industrial training board may delegate any power exercisable by it by virtue of this section to a committee (which need not include members of the board) appointed for that purpose or to any committee appointed under section 3 of this Act.
  (3) An industrial training board shall keep separate accounts—

  (a) with respect to its functions under this section; and

  (b) with respect to its other functions under this Act;

  and no money raised by a levy imposed under this Act shall be carried to an account kept in pursuance of paragraph (a) of this subsection, and any expenses and liabilities incurred by the Board under this section shall be disregarded for the purposes of sections 4(1) and 9(3) of this Act."
  Mr. Godber: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
  This is an entirely new Clause. I apologise that we did not bring it forward earlier. The point was raised in our discussions and the Clause is designed to meet the desires particularly of my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Technical Co-operation and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development both of whom are especially interested in the need to ensure that students from overseas will be able to obtain training in this country in ways which would not necessarily be connected with employment. The point was that students or trainees coining to this country should be able to be assisted under the provisions of this Bill. This Clause has been designed to make provision for that.
  The powers proposed under this new Clause are to be exercised only at the request of the Minister. A board will not be required as a matter of course to make special provision for these overseas trainees; nor will it be able, on its own initiative, to propose a scheme of training for them. It seemed right to us that this provision should place the responsibility for initiating action on the Minister, at the request, no doubt, of the Secretary for Technical Co-operation. The initiative would be taken by asking a board to make special arrangements. This is in contrast to other provisions in the

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  Bill which require a board to secure provision for training and then to submit proposals to the Minister.
  When a board secures training facilities under the Clause for overseas persons to be trained in industry, or makes grants for training such persons, the expenses incurred will not be met by the levy. They will be accounted for separately and met by the Minister who in turn will be reimbursed by the Department for Technical Co-operation or the Board of Trade, whichever is appropriate. We do not feel it fair to impose the cost in the form of a levy, so accounts will be kept separately for this purpose. This is a convenient vehicle for providing for assisted training of overseas students. I feel confident that this will commend itself to the House.
  Mr. Prentice: I very warmly welcome this new Clause. It is one which should command general support. There should be close links between the industrial training programme in this country and the countries in the programme of technical assistance.
  One hopes to see growing a practice by which trainees from Britain spend a year or so in developing countries as a few do under the programmes of Voluntary Service Overseas. That is a good thing from any point of view, including that of the firms which help it to be done. Secondly, there is an organisation in this country for trainees coming here. Of the training and education carried out in Britain at the moment for people from overseas perhaps too great a proportion is in university training for professions. I am not saying that that should be reduced—it probably should be increased—but probably there should be a larger proportional increase of training in skills for work relevant to developing countries. I hope this power will be used extensively and that the Ministry of Labour and industrial training boards will co-operate in a growing, plan of this kind.
  Mr. Austen Albu: I wish to support this new Clause, which is of very great importance. I hope that the function of the Ministry of Labour in this regard will be no more than a "post office" in this matter and that requests
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  by the Secretary for Technical Cooperation will receive immediate assent to carry out these functions.
  I support my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) on the need to increase the use of industrial training for those countries which we are helping. In the past we have felt, and those countries are beginning to realise it, that there has been too much emphasis on professional training at university level and that there is a need for craft training and apprenticeship training, with which the Bill is mainly concerned. This will be an increasingly difficult job, because it is becoming increasingly difficult to find training places for our own people in industry. The Secretary for Technical Co-operation will have to be energetic and forceful in getting industry to accept schemes for apprentices for those places.
  The Ministry of Labour and the Secretary for Technical Co-operation will have to look at the question of training for industry very seriously. It is becoming very necessary at all levels. We hope that the Bill will be helpful, but it is certainly the case that, inasmuch as we can find some means of increasing the number of places available for training in industry, this Clause by itself will not be of much use because, a fortiori, it will be likely that there will be fewer places for those from overseas.
  On the question of payment, I suppose that under this Clause it will be possible for the Secretary for Technical Cooperation to support a training board directly by making annual contributions towards its income without having to consider every individual case on its merits. A proportion of the funds of the boards could be supplied by the Department of Technical Co-operation on the basis of the amount of work that will have to be done in finding places, supervising students and so on. I hope that the machinery for carrying out the functions of the new Clause will be adequate, will be made as simple as possible and that the interest of the Department in this matter will be brought home to the boards.
  Mr. James Boyden: I am glad that the new Clause has been added, even as an afterthought, although I regret that it was not before us in Committee so that we could have

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  had a longer discussion on the matter, for this is an extremely important subject. I have written to the right hon. Gentleman about representation on the boards so that overseas training can be properly considered. The right hon. Gentleman gave me only a partially satisfactory answer; that the Department of Technical Co-operation would be in attendance on occasions when this sort of thing is being discussed.
  Subsection (2) refers to the delegating of power by industrial training boards to committees. I hope that on those committees will be represented people from the High Commission Offices and, if they cannot be permanently represented, that they will be called in from time to time when problems affecting their areas are being discussed. It might also be desirable to have a representative from the Commonwealth Education Liaison Unit who is in close touch with the problems.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) pointed out, the placing of overseas students for industrial training is a difficult task. I have with me a letter which I received today from the Honorary Secretary of the Council for Education in the Commonwealth. It concerns Kenya students and states:
  "The other point we should wish to make in connection with degree courses at new universities concerns the promoted C.A.T.'s who now become Technological Universities".
  The next sentence is particularly important, for it states:
  "As a general rule sandwich courses are of no use to us here at all, as we simply cannot arrange the industrial training."
  I am well aware that one cannot just create places for these students, but I hope that the Bill will give impetus to the provision of places and that every effort will be made to provide them.
  All sorts of difficulties can arise when placing overseas students, and in some firms and industries there are security factors which make the task even more difficult. Some firms are disinclined to accept overseas students. This difficulty is overcome in the Royal Naval colleges and military colleges by having special courses. I hope that the same degree of application which is made in those courses will be provided by the
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  industrial training boards. I also hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, as a normal course, give a direction to the boards to consider this aspect.
  Another difficulty arises over the question of liaison, particularly the speaking of the English language for overseas students. Many of them have insufficient English to carry forward their technical studies. They get what is known as "language dryness". I hope that this aspect will be dealt with jointly by the Secretary for Technical Co-operation, the Minister of Education and the Minister of Labour through the industrial training boards.
  The boards will need to do more than make provision for places. They will have to provide information abroad as to the ways they will deal with overseas students, either through the British Council, the Department of Technical Co-operation or in some other way. It is vital that information should be put out in the developing countries concerned, either through the High Commission Offices there, the British Council or in some other way.
  When the Bill was in Committee we many times expressed the importance of explaining its purposes to the general public, to industry, to employers, apprentices, and all concerned, so it is absolutely vital that there should be the maximum amount of information and cooperation in the application of the Clause. I support the Clause, but I think it a pity that it has not had greater discussion at a more convenient hour.
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: I have great pleasure in supporting this Clause. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) has called it an afterthought from another place, but that only shows that afterthoughts from another place occasionally have a certain forward look about them. We ourselves did not think of this point in Committee.
  It is generally recognised in the House, and in the country, that it is very important that we should give a certain amount of our resources to the education of people from overseas. This climate of opinion has developed rather slowly, but that opinion is now gathering force. It is also recognised that if we do not

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  play our part, other countries, such as America and Russia, have every intention at doing so, and will certainly gain influence where we will fail to do so if we neglect our duty in this regard.
  Training in industry is quite as important as other forms of education, and there is a great deal of advantage in linking it with the education these overseas students are receiving in our technical colleges and universities. Education and industrial training are both right and have a certain amount of self-interest in them. When people trained here go back to their undeveloped countries—whether those countries have been in the Commonwealth and are now independent or have never been part of the Commonwealth—they take with them not only their skill and training but a certain feeling for the British way of life. I know that a great many firms find it to the advantage of their export trade to train these people from overseas. When the men return to their own countries the firm knows that it has contacts with people who have had their technical training on the machinery that the firm makes, or knowledge of its other products.
  It is also satisfactory that in the Bill we have so far recognised the essential co-operation there will be between the Minister of Education and the Minister of Labour, but I understand that we now have a ministerial threesome in the business; I see on the Government Front Bench the Secretary for Technical Cooperation. There is everything to be said in favour of having all three Ministers working together in this sphere.
  It has been said that it may be difficult to fit overseas students in the establishments that will be set up by the boards, so I hope that—perhaps not at first, but in due course—my right hon. Friend will find it possible to reserve a certain number of places for overseas students. That is not an immediate matter but, as the programme gathers momentum, I think that it will be worth considering.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: I compliment the Minister on introducing the new Clause. I had a Question down on 25th February to the Secretary for Technical Co-operation, who has kindly enlarged on his Answer to me by sending me some figures show-
  390
  ing the number of students who have been trained in this country. It is an excellent experience to see on the Government Front Bench both the Secretary for Technical Co-operation, who we all know is deeply concerned in technical training, and the Minister of Labour.
  I hope that the Secretary for Technical Co-operation will not mind if I say that the figures are not as good as we should like to sec. They are not bad under the conditions of severe competition for training which exist throughout the world, but we want to see better. We are training people through the universities and technical colleges, and if we set up training centres on the craft side and can increase the flow of students—some increases are shown—then we may be able to help meet the shortage of teachers. We may be able to recruit teachers for three years from students passing through the universities to train in some of the training centres before they return to their own countries.
  In their own countries, although they have university degrees and high qualifications, they must feel frustration and meet difficulties because they have not the broad artisan base which they found when undergoing their university training here.
  What we have here is excellent. I hope that co-operation between the two Departments will continue and that, whichever Government is in power, the Ministers in those positions will expand the work which we wish to see started.
  Mr. Godber: I am most grateful to hon. Members on both sides of the House for their warm reception of the Clause.
  One should always give credit where it is due. Here the credit should go to my right hon. and technical Friend, if I may so describe him, the Secretary for Technical Co-operation, who has always taken such a keen interest in matters of training. He suggested this new Clause, which wilt be of help to many and which we warmly accepted.
  I had a good deal of sympathy when listening to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) about the need for training at different levels. We certainly do not want to cut down on degree or graduate training, but I recall very well when, in a previous incarnation, representing this country at U.N.E.S.C.O. at a biennial

  391
  conference, I discussed these matters with people from developing countries. Of course they want higher training, but they also want this broad base about which the hon. Member spoke. We must not paint too rosy a picture of what we shall be able to do under this Clause but we are laying a foundation on which we can build.
  I was interested in what was said by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden). We have to work closely together in the best way possible to produce the results which he and I want to achieve. The Central Training Council and the individual boards will be able to give advice. I assure hon. Members that I very much welcome the way in which they have received this Clause. We shall work closely with the Department for Technical Co-operation in seeking to bring about what both sides of the House want to achieve.
  Question put and agreed to. [Special Entry.]

  Clause 14.—(DISQUALIFICATION FOR MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF COMMONS.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 12, line 31, at end insert:
  "or paid deputy chairman of such a board".
  Mr. Godber: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
  The Amendment is consequential on that which follows, if I may put it in that way. If the House will be kind enough to accept this Amendment, I can explain the position more fully on the next.
  Question put and agreed to.

  Schedule.—(INDUSTRIAL TRAINING BOARDS.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 14, line 16, at end insert:
  "and, if the Minister thinks fit to appoint as deputy chairman a person appearing to him to have industrial or commercial experience, the deputy chairman so appointed; and references in the following provisions of this Schedule to a chairman shall include a deputy chairman."
  Mr. Godber: I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
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  I deeply appreciate the way in which the House accepted the previous Amendment without demur, and I hope that I have not committed them irrevocably to something which they will deplore. It occurred to us that, particularly in some of the larger boards, there would be value in appointing a deputy chairman who could take some of the load off the chairman and who could do a considerable amount of the work.
  We want to make provision in such a way that it would be possible for him, if necessary, to be paid. Therefore, the words in the Amendment
  …and references in the following provisions of this Schedule to a chairman shall include a deputy chairman."
  are inserted to bring into effect the subsequent words in the Schedule. I think that it is a useful provision. I do not know how many we shall wish to provide for but this would be helpful certainly in one or two of the larger boards.
  Mr. Prentice: I again express support for the Amendment. I looked carefully at the Amendments in the hope that we should find something to criticise, but unfortunately I was not able to find anything. The Minister knows me well enough to realise that I tried hard. The Amendment is useful in the context that the chairmanship of the board is clearly of such importance that there may be occasions when it will be useful for him to be supported by someone else on a paid basis.
  It is clear from the Bill that the success of this whole operation will depend on certain key points. One is the Minister and the work he does through his Department in consultation with the Ministry of Education and the Central Training Council. The board itself and its chairmanship are also a key point. The paid chairman and the board of unpaid part-time people will be entering on a big new job. A tremendous lot will depend on the chairman to get things moving quickly. We want to see the chairman acting in such a way that initiatives are taken quickly and he is able to have a large say in appointing the committees which will be needed, in instituting ideas, galvanising the board itself into action, and spreading new ideas through industry.

  393
  This job is so big that it will be essential, especially in some of the large industries, for the chairman to have a vice-chairman particularly because the Minister, as I understand, is rightly thinking in terms of a hoard operating on a broad basis. The Minister, for example, has resisted the wish of some people to have separate boards for different types of engineering. He has contemplated an engineering board covering 3 million workers with complex training problems and thousands of establishments throughout the country. There is a strong case for having a chairman and vice-chairman, each working full-time, partly because it will be necessary to have people with different qualifications and backgrounds who will complement each other in this work. I therefore think that the Amendment is a useful provision which it will be necessary to use more particularly in the larger industries.
  Mr. Boyden: I also welcome the Amendment. I am sorry I did not think of it myself during the Committee stage. Obviously I ought to go to another place where one can think in peace and quiet. The Amendment meets in some degree the anxieties expressed in Committee about the balance of the boards. I hope that one way in which it will be used will be to get a good balance between a prominent employer and a prominent trade unionist in the chairmanship and vice-chairmanship, or vice versa.
  10.45 p.m.
  There might also be in the same way a balance between youth and age. We on this side of the House were somewhat in favour of having younger people —people with some established reputation but not too sere and yellow. The Amendment seems to give the opportunity of having a very experienced employer or trade unionist, perhaps on the point of retirement, as a paid chairman, with a younger vice-chairman who might be run into office in a year or two. We could thus have a balance of youth and age. Whatever may be the combination, I welcome the Amendment, because it gives flexibility as regards age, experience and balance in the industry, and a certain amount of flexibility to someone who perhaps at the time of appointment cannot give as much time to the task as he would wish but at a later stage would be able to,
  394
  and who might be made a vice-chairman to begin with and subsequently promoted to the chair.
  Question put and agreed to. [Special Entry].

RAILWAYS (PYLE-PORTHCAWL LINE)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Pym.]
10.46 p.m.
Mr. Join Morris: I am delighted to have this opportunity to raise the issue of the Pyle-Porthcawl railway. Time is running out in more senses than one. It is fortunate that I have this opportunity to raise the matter. I am particularly concerned with regard to the summer service. The winter service has already closed. The summer service ran last year. The Minister has now consented to the complete closure of rail facilities to Porthcawl, and this summer, for the first time, there will be no service.
Porthcawl is a very important holiday resort in South Wales. People from all over the country and, in particular, from the valleys go to the town to enjoy their summer holidays. The town is greatly dependent for its prosperity on the incoming holidaymakers. Its season, as in other parts is a short one. There is a very important holiday caravan site there and talk of further development. The rates are incredibly high. There is a very large proportion of old-age pensioners there. Having regard to all these circumstances, there is an enormous burden on the citizens of the town. Although they will have some relief from the Rating Act, this is no more than a temporary measure, and I would think that it would have been much preferable to make a proper inquiry into the whole of the rating system.
The town has had two severe blows in recent years. The first, two years ago, was the smallpox epidemic in the valleys. As a result, the town's trade suffered in that year. The town lost a very large proportion of its holiday custom in that year. One example of the loss was the cancellation of the annual conference of the Women of the Labour Party.

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The T.U.C.C. had its inquiry on the B.T.C. proposals to close the line altogether in July, 1962. The case was argued very ably on behalf of the town and its trading interests. The result of the inquiry was announced as far back as August, 1962. The T.U.C.C" having considered all these circumstances, suggested that the line should be kept open in summer. In my opinion, that was a very suitable suggestion.
The second blow falls as a result of the T.U.C.C. inquiry in that there has been in 18 long months complete uncertainty as to the future of the line. Holidaymakers who wish to come to Porthcawl did not know, and had no means of knowing, whether the line would be in existence not only this summer but last summer. For month after month we have had this monstrous delay over an announcement from the Minister.
That obviously caused difficulty for holidaymakers, difficulty for those who intended to come to Porthcawl and difficulty for those who planned the holiday facilities of the town and the caravan site. The delay of 18 months by the Minister in announcing a decision about the future of the line was almost as long as the pregnancy of an elephant, which is two years. Since January last year I have been continually pressing the Minister to see me to discuss the future of the line. In Shakespeare's words, it was almost a case of
"Make me a willow cabin at your gate".
Month after month, I persistently wrote and telephoned to the Minister's office, and always there was a reason for further delay. In the end, he wrote to me in October suggesting that he would reach a decision in a couple of weeks. Two weeks passed. I wrote again or telephoned, and the reason then given to me was that the Parliamentary Recess had been prolonged because the present Prime Minister had gone electioneering in Scotland. Surely, the fact that Parliament was not sitting should have enabled the Minister to got on with the task much sooner, rather than taking that as an excuse for prolonging the decision which the Minister hoped to reach as far back as October hut which he did not take until February this year. It is beyond any sense of understanding what the Minister is doing.
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My view is that the Minister has too much on his plate and cannot give adequate time to reaching proper decisions about the future of the railways. Having regard to the delay in this case and the uncertainty about when he would come to a decision, I have great doubt, as do my constituents, about the correctness of his decision. That may be the case concerning not only this instance, but with railway lines generally.
The Prime Minister and the Minister of Transport have told us from time to time that adequate alternative transport would be provided when closures occur. I emphasise, as Lord Stonham has done in another place, the word "adequate". The Parliamentary Secretary has kindly sent me tonight a copy of the Minister's recommendations that there should be suitable supplementation of the bus services between Bridgend and Porthcawl during the summer months, including the Whitsun weekend.
I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what that means. How many more bus services will there be? What will happen if, after a few years, those bus services are withdrawn? Obviously, the peak traffic is in the summer months. For ten or eleven weekends, there is immense traffic to and from Porthcawl. People come for the day or for the week or fortnight. Whole families come to stay in the caravans.
The important point is that if the Prime Minister's words are to mean anything, there must be adequate alternative facilities to include luggage. If the families who come from the valleys to stay in the caravans have a number of small children, as I have, they have to travel with almost anything except the kitchen sink if they stay for a week's or a fortnight's holiday. They have to bring their baby carriages, provisions and everything else. Even if the existing bus services are augmented, they will not afford suitable, adequate alternative transport, because there will be no facilities for luggage.
I was interested in the Minister's reply to his hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Sir Richard Glyn) on 11th February concerning bus trailers, when he said:
"My proposed new requirements for bus trailers and their towing vehicles have already been circulated to interested parties and to the

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Press. The necessary changes in Regulations will be laid before the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th February, 1964; Vol. 689, c. 53.]
Will they be laid before the House before the summer? Will there be adequate facilities for luggage for Porthcawl this summer? Will the Minister or somebody else have to go before the Traffic Commissioners to get their advice and consent before the new bus services are put into operation? If they are not brought into existence before the summer months, the holidaymakers of Porthcawl will not, in the Prime Minister's words, have adequate alternative transport this summer.
A few weeks ago, the Minister announced that there would be many other closures and that those applying to holiday resorts would not come into effect this year if announced after 12th February. This closure was announced on 5th February, and I wonder why the arbitrary date of 12th February was chosen. Why cannot the travelling public of Porthcawl have the additional reprieve for this year, in view of the uncertainty which they have had to endure for eighteen long months?
The roads on the way to Porthcawl are narrow, and I shall be interested to hear what provision has been made for their widening and what expenditure in this respect the Minister has in mind.
I have some experience of transport users' consultative committees in Wales. I have been to a fairly large number of them, and I pay tribute to the work which they are able to do within very narrow terms of reference about actual hardship. While there is no dissatisfaction with them, having regard to their narrow terms of reference, there is great anxiety, not only in Wales, but in the country generally, in that there does not appear to be any independent organ of sufficient stature with sufficient assessors and technical knowledge to canvass and consider the wider issues beyond mere personal hardship—attracting industry to the area, the expense to the State of providing other roads, and planning for the future—and able to give the Minister independent advice in which the public could have confidence.
There is deep anxiety on that score. Of course, at the end of the day it is for the Minister to decide, and I would be the first to agree that he should,
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but much anxiety would be removed if the whole T.U.C.C. procedure were considered and a smaller body were set up instead able to consider the wider issues and to remove some of the present anxieties.
10.58 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): However long it has taken the Government to deal with the problem of the Pyle—Porthcawl line, the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. J. Morris) has been quick off the mark in arranging for this Adjournment debate. Although I am delighted to be answering tonight, I hope that not too many of his hon. Friends follow his example, because this week four out of the five Adjournment debates are to be answered by the Ministry of Transport.
As we all know, the hon. Gentleman has shown a great interest in railway closures generally, as well as in this case, but I hope that he recognises, with the Coryton line and Central Wales line having been kept open, how carefully my right hon. Friend has looked into railway structure in the Principality and how in no sense has he been a rubber stamp to Dr. Beeching, but has exercised his judgment independently, and, I hope the hon. Gentleman will agree fairly.
This closure is not, as I am sure the hon. Member appreciates, part of the Beeching Report proposals. The proposal was put forward not by the Railways Board but by the British Transport Commission and heard by the Transport Users' Consultative Committee before the Transport Act, 1962, came into force. This means that the railways could have closed the line without going to the T.U.C.C. and that the closure did not require the consent of my right hon. Friend and that he could not make any conditions about it. Nevertheless, in spite of that statutory position, the Railways Board put the proposal to the T.U.C.C. and made a recommendation to the Minister under the 1947 legislation shortly before the 1962 Act came into force. Under the transitional provisions of the Seventh Schedule, the Minister had the same power to give directions in respect of the matter in the recommendation as he had under the

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1947 legislation. So what my right hon. Friend has done is to tell the Board he accepts the closure proposal, and that is what brings the hon. Gentleman here to the House tonight.
The first question he asked me was why it should take so long to reach this decision; the proposal, after all, has been with the Government for 17 months. The matter, however, is not entirely a simple one, because the Transport Users' Consultative Committee made two recommendations. The hon. Gentleman agrees with both. The first was that the proposal to close the services in winter should be accepted; and that the summer service should be retained.
The original difficulty, which the hon. Gentleman did not refer to, about the second half of the recommendation, was that the Transport Users' Consultative Committee had been given the impression by an off-the-cuff statement at the hearing that the summer service would just about pay its costs, excluding track maintenance. Eventually, when this was gone into, it was discovered that this off-the-cuff assessment was untrue.
It was first of all necessary to obtain an accurate assessment of the cost of the summer service, and we discovered the Board would have had to make a surcharge of 12s. on each return ticket—which shows the burden which would have had to be borne either by those actually using the line or by the taxpayers if the line were to be viable economically. These inquiries, together with further studies of the road situation, obviously took some time, and when it became clear that a decision on the summer service was some way off my right hon. Friend decided to accept the recommendation that the winter services should be closed and to continue the study of the problem of the summer services. Then on top of all this the Beeching Report was published with its list of proposed closures, many of which affected holiday resorts.
So we thought we ought to examine in general the questions of the risk of damage to local interests, hardship to traders rather than to travellers, the possible effect on the tourist industry, and such allied matters, and we thought it right to look at these questions as a whole before considering them in relation to any particular case. This is why
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it has taken my right hon. Friend some time to come to his decision. He has not been inactive at all. He would have liked to have joined the hon. Gentleman in his wigwam or whatever it was he built outside the Ministry of Transport, but unfortunately he was too busy considering more serious matters, such as this proposed closure.
The proposed closure was, however, announced at the end of January, that is, well in advance of the summer season, so that it seems to me that intending travellers have ample time to make their arrangements.
The hon. Gentleman raised the question of the alternative services. I think he was suggesting that my right hon. Friend should make sure that the provision of alternative services would be a condition of his consent to closure. I suppose my right hon. Friend could have done this, but his formal powers under the 1947 Act—and we must remember that all this is done under the 1947 Act—are somewhat inflexible, and in the past the Railways Board and its predecessor the British Transport Commission have always carried out the understandings reached in respect of alternative services without the need for my right hon. Friend to invoke his powers of direction. In this case the operators informed the Transport Users' Consultative Committee that they would provide sufficient vehicles to carry passengers from the railhead at Bridgend, which is only six miles away.
The hon. Gentleman asked, too, about the Traffic Commissioners. They do not come into this because the operator's licence already allows him to duplicate this service if required.
The Minister's agreement to that rail closure was, of course, subject to the understanding that these services would be available and would be provided, and if by any chance they are not provided, the Minister has power, under paragraph 11 of the 7th Schedule to the Act, to give directions to the Railways Board. He has this power, but I do not think that he will ever have to use it if past experience is anything to go by. I think, however, that it should reassure the hon. Gentleman and his constituents to know that the power does exist in reserve.

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When this sort of closure occurs, with heavy peak loads to which the hon. Gentleman referred, travellers, and indeed the public generally, are concerned as to the ability of the operators to cope with the extra traffic. I have looked into this carefully, and I have obtained figures for rail travel to Porthcawl on peak weekend holidays in the summer. I think that the figures are rather interesting. I took last summer, which was not a smallpox epidemic year, and the figures show that the total of arrivals on 12 peak Saturdays was 5,700, and on the Sundays 2,276, making an average for the Saturdays of 475, and 190 for the Sundays. The highest number arriving on any one day was just under 1,600. That was on one Saturday.
The bus operator told the T.U.C.C. that he could carry up to 1,000 rail excursionists at a time with his own vehicles, and that he could quite easily carry more by hiring vehicles from associated companies. But, as the hon. Gentleman realises, arrivals and departures would normally be spread over several hours. They probably would not all arrive together, and even as large a number as 1,000 visitors means only 40 bus loads—even less if they are all double-deckers—so I do not think that there is any doubt as to the ability of the bus operator to cope with extra traffic.
The hon. Gentleman then referred to luggage. It is extraordinary the number of old men who come to me and ask about perambulators. It is not the kind of quest on that one expects a man to ask. One rather expects a lady to ask about them. Although the hon. Gentleman referred to his family, I am not suggesting that he is an old man, but it shows how kindhearted the male is.
As regards the adequacy of the buses for carrying luggage, some operators already provide large luggage spaces, and others take out seats, or, alternatively, reserve seats for luggage at peak holiday times. My right hon. Friend, who has taken a great interest in this matter, has personally reminded bus operators of the importance which travellers attached to luggage space, and they have undertaken to do what they can to help travellers in this matter.
The particular operator who is concerned here—and I think that this is
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very important—has informed us that he is used to dealing with heavy traffic for holiday camps and to caravan sites on this route, and the buses apparently have luggage racks. He also takes out the last four seats at the buses at peak times to make room for the additional luggage.
In addition—and this leads me to the question of trailers which the hon. Gentleman raised—my right hon. Friend has already explained that he is considering the present regulations so as to allow buses to tow luggage trailers in appropriate circumstances. We have now had comments on the proposals from the various interested organisations, and I hope that we shall soon be able to lay the appropriate regulations before Parliament. though how soon, which is what the hon. Gentleman asked, I am sorry I cannot say. But I should like to stress to the hon. Gentleman and to his constituents that it is not necessary to wait for these new regulations, since there are other ways of dealing with the traffic problem, some of which I have already mentioned, and some of which are already being used on the Porthcawl route.
The hon. Gentleman then asked about roads. Before my right hon. Friend came to a decision, he naturally had special reports Iron his advisers on road congestion in this area. These advisers report that roads to Porthcawl are generally adequate for normal purposes. They admit, however, that congestion does occur in the centre of the town on the access roads, particularly in the evening and at a few peak weekends in the summer holyday season. This is a fairly general problem, which affects many holiday resorts and the roads leading to thorn.
The figures that I have given for travellers show that even at its peak the volume of traffic diverted from rail will be comparatively small. We calculate that it will add only about 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. to the existing traffic at the most congested point—the roundabout giving access to A.48. There are two peculiar features about this case which I should point out. In the first place, the problems for traffic to and from Porthcawl are not due to the access roads themselves but to the difficulty which returning traffic has in getting on to the A.48 at the Red-hill roundabout and the existing congestion on the main road from that point

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onwards. In fact, the congestion is there already, but it exists only on a few occasions throughout the year, and the extra traffic from the rail closures will have only a very marginal effect. We have been considering schemes for the comprehensive improvement of A.48, and this might well include a grade separated junction with the Porthcawl road.
The hon. Member asked about the cost. We estimate that it might cost about £250,000, but the whole project could be much more expensive. Here, I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Member because, as it is only in peak weekends that the traffic is high, I cannot yet say when we are likely to be able to do anything about this, because the Government's policy is to concentrate funds where traffic is heavy all the year round, and I think that this policy has the general approval of the House.
The second peculiar feature is that congestion in the town is to a considerable extent due to the railway itself. This occupies a very choice site in the centre of the town, immediately behind the Eastern Promenade, and the main road linking the eastern and western parts of the town is actually cut by a level crossing at Station Hill. The Railways Board indicated at the transport users' consultative committee that it would be closing the line to freight, which would get rid of the level crossing, and that it would be willing to release land for development. While the closure may therefore add marginally to the peak traffic, the loss of the service ought to reduce the congestion in the town. It should release valuable land for redevelopment, and it might eventually provide the route for an improved northern approach road.
The hon. Member asked why the Porthcawl line should be closed towards the end of January while other holiday resorts were apparently reprieved until mid-February. He might have thought that my right hon. Friend had some grievance against Wales. This is not so, as the hon. Member can now see. In fact, in his recent announcement what my right hon. Friend said was that where a closure was proposed, that is, where a statutory notice was given after 12th February—the day upon which he made his statements; which is why that
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date was particularly chosen—then, if the decision was that the line should close, the closure must not take place until October, after the end of the holiday season.
But he also said that in making his decision on proposals already published or under consideration—that is, his consideration on pipeline cases, like that which we are now discussing—he would bear in mind the possible effect on holiday travel arrangements this summer. I can say that this was very much in my right hon. Friend's mind when he gave his decision in this case, but he felt that an announcement at the end of January, when the possibility of closure had been known for a year and when the line had in fact been shut in winter, gave those concerned adequate notice and enabled them to make alternative arrangements.
The hon. Gentleman asked me about the T.U.C.C. I doubt whether I could satisfactorily answer that question in the time remaining. Since the hon. Gentleman was speaking from a constituency point of view I thought that I would concentrate my remarks on points of detail. However, if he will read the speech I made on 19th December last when replying to another Adjournment debate and the speech made the following day by my right hon. Friend on the same subject I think that he will find satisfactory answers to the remaining questions I have been unable tonight to answer.
I realise that some local people are afraid that their trade will be hurt. Nevertheless. I believe with the urban district council, if the Press reports since the decision represent the council accurately, that the town will on balance lose little, if anything, from the decision to close and that, with the alternatives available, there should be no hardship to travellers.
I particularly want to make it clear that great care and thought has gone into all the implications of this decision. It may not have been reached quickly, but it could not have been considered with greater thoroughness or sympathy, bearing in mind all the issues which are at stake.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes past Eleven o'clock.

SCIENCE
  Scientists (Emigration)
  Scientists (Emigration)
  Footpaths (Maintenance)
  Footpaths (Maintenance)
  Teaching Machines
  Teaching Machines
UNIVERSITIES
  Science Students
  Science Students
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Books and Magazines (Customs Seizures)
  Books and Magazines (Customs Seizures)
  Government Departments (Expenditure)
  Government Departments (Expenditure)
  Developing Countries (Aid)
  Developing Countries (Aid)
  Incomes Policy
  Incomes Policy
  Overseas Service Volunteers
  Overseas Service Volunteers
  Dividends
  Dividends
  Teaching Machines
  Teaching Machines
  Toll Bridges (Income)
  Toll Bridges (Income)
  Coast Preventive Men (Motor Cars)
  Coast Preventive Men (Motor Cars)
  Band Instruments (Tax)
  Band Instruments (Tax)
  Prestwick Airport (Customs)
  Prestwick Airport (Customs)
FIJI
  English Language
  English Language
  Natural Resources Survey
  Natural Resources Survey
PITCAIRN ISLAND
  Administration
  Administration
BASUTOLAND
  Constitution
  Constitution
MALTA
  Constitution
  Constitution
ST. HELENA
  Admiralty Jurisdiction
  Admiralty Jurisdiction
  Doctors and Nurses
  Doctors and Nurses
ADEN
  Historic Documents
  Historic Documents
TANGANYIKA
  British Forces
  British Forces
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Building Industry (Report)
  Building Industry (Report)
TECHNICAL CO-OPERATION
  Research Staff
  Research Staff
  Education (Loans and Grants)
  Education (Loans and Grants)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Local Government Commission (Reviews)
  Local Government Commission (Reviews)
  Planning Applications
  Planning Applications
HOUSING
  Leaseholders
  Leaseholders
  Land Prices, Swansea
  Land Prices, Swansea
SCOTLAND
  Tay Road Bridge
  Tay Road Bridge
  Doctors and Dentists
  Doctors and Dentists
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Drinamyl
  Drinamyl
  Prisoners (Escapes)
  Prisoners (Escapes)
  VIETNAM AND CAMBODIA
  VIETNAM AND CAMBODIA
  NORTH-EAST (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  NORTH-EAST (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  DUNBARTON AND VALE OF LEVEN (EMPLOYMENT)
  DUNBARTON AND VALE OF LEVEN (EMPLOYMENT)
  MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (STATEMENTS)
  MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (STATEMENTS)
  PRESTWICK AIRPORT
  PRESTWICK AIRPORT
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Farmers' Incomes
  Farmers' Incomes
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Light Aircraft
  Light Aircraft
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Drugs
  Drugs
SHIPPING
  Life-rafts
  Life-rafts
EMPLOYMENT
  Wages and Working Hours
  Wages and Working Hours
  Apprenticeships, Wales
  Apprenticeships, Wales
  Kirkcaldy
  Kirkcaldy
HOSPITALS
  Children (Visiting By Parents)
  Children (Visiting By Parents)
  Hospital Building
  Hospital Building
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Retirement Pensioners, Wales
  Retirement Pensioners, Wales

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool

MEDICAL SCHOOL PLACES: PERSONAL STATEMENT BY LORD TAYLOR
2.35 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I wish to make a short personal statement. In Hansard last Thursday there appeared a Written Question by the noble Baroness, Lady Horsbrugh [Col. 317.] It read as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government
"Whether it is correct that as stated by Lord Taylor on January 22, 1964, there were 30 male applicants and 200 female applicants, properly qualified for each place in our medical schools in 1963."
To this Question the noble Earl, Lord Bessborouc4h, replied:
"No."
The noble Earl went on to give a calculation to support his contention. I am sure that this calculation is accurate, but it is irrelevant, for a reason which will appear in a moment. The noble Lady, no doubt inadvertently, omitted a qualification I made to the figures she quoted. I said: [OFFICIAL REPORT, VOL 254 (No. 26), col. 948.]
"There is some overlap:"
in the applications, that is—
"but the demand for places certainly enormously outruns the available number of places."
The overlap arises because, owing to the pressure, young men and women now habitually apply to more than one medical school. It is for this reason that the noble Earl's calculation is irrelevant to my figures.
There is no official source for the figures I quoted. I have therefore made personal inquiries at six of the London medical schools, and I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the detailed results of these
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inquiries.* The totals are, however, as follows: 7,625 applications were received at the six medical schools from men, and 344 were admitted; 3,360 applications were received from women, and 90 were admitted. It follows that one man was admitted for every 22 applications received, and one woman was admitted for every 37 applications received.
These are the most accurate figures I can obtain, but I must again emphasise the point about applications to more than one medical school. I must apologise for having misled your Lordships in the earlier figures which I gave, and I should like to thank the noble Lady for having forced me to re-do my homework.

MALTA
2.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they still intend Malta to be independent by May 31, and if so, what proposals they have for a new Constitution.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, as was announced on the 28th February, the constitutional talks between my right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary and the Prime Minister of Malta were temporarily suspended pending my right honourable friend's return from Africa. He intends to resume the talks as soon as possible, and I must therefore ask the noble Earl to wait until then for a statement.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Marquess. Can he say whether it is still the intention, as I asked in my Question, that Malta shall be independent by the end of May? Can he further say whether, when the Constitution has been decided on by Her Majesty's Government, in consultation, of course, with
* We are unable, by rule of the House, to publish the Table.

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the leaders of the Malta parties, there will be a referendum in Malta on the Constitution before it is put into effect?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Lord's Question, the answer is, Yes. As regards the second part, I should be obliged if he would not press me, in view of the fact that the conversations will be resumed very shortly.

OLD PALACE YARD AND WESTMINSTER REDEVELOPMENT
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when considering the plans for the redevelopment of the Palace of Westminster/ Bridge Street area, they will give attention to the possibility of restoring to Old Palace Yard its character of a precinct by converting the existing road into an underpass.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, as I informed your Lordships last week, in reply to another Question, my right honourable friend the Minister of Public Building and Works is proposing to appoint a planning consultant to look at the various proposals which are under consideration for redevelopment in the Whitehall area. The consultant will be asked to confer with the planning authority and the highway authorities on road traffic arrangements in the whole area, including Old Palace Yard.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for his reply. May I ask him one further question; namely, whether he has ever seen the picture which is hanging in the Liberal Whips' room on the Second Floor showing what the precinct was like before the main road was built on to the Embankment?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am looking forward to the opportunity, which I am sure the noble Lord will extend to me, of doing so.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Government will
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bear in mind a scheme which was proposed, I think, between ten and fifteen years ago by an authoritative body (I think the Architectural Association), which envisaged a precinct all the way from Parliament Square to Lambeth Bridge? As my noble friend's Question seems to bring this to the forefront and make it less impossible than we were told it was at the time, I should be grateful if they would bear that in mind with a view to having space, with no roads at all—only paving, grass, trees—all around the area of Henry VII Chapel, your Lordships' House and Palace Yard.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I was not aware of the precise scheme, though I was aware that the Abercrombie Report proposed some very large precinct in this general area. But I will certainly ask my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport whether he will bring this sort of possibility to the attention of the London County Council when they are considering the longer-term road pattern for London.
LORD REA: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Earl.

THE LAW OF CONTRACT
2.43 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of the judgments delivered in McCutcheon v. David MacBrayne Ltd., they propose to introduce general legislation to secure that when contracts are made in circumstances in which there is no scope for free negotiation of the terms, they are made upon terms that are clear, fair and reasonable and settled independently as such.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, the noble Lord has made an extremely wide proposal, which Her Majesty's Government would not consider suitable for general legislation. I might add that the present law of contract requires that the terms

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are sufficiently brought to the notice of both parties.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his reply, but is it not rather unfair that a large organisation, enjoying monopolistic conditions, can present its customers with a printed document headed "Conditions", containing 3,000 to 4,000 words of small print, divided into 27 paragraphs, of which Paragraph 19, in the opinion of one of the noble and learned Law Lords, is enough to absolve the respondents several times over of all negligence?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, if, as I gather, the noble Lord wishes to refer to a particular industry, from which this case arose, I cannot say more than what my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor said on January 23—namely, that this is a matter which is under consideration at the present time.

ATOMIC ENERGY AUTHORITY AND BELGONUCLEAIRE
2.45 p.m.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish the terms of agreement between the Atomic Energy Authority and Belgonucleaire, what financial contribution has already been made and what is the total commitment.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH): My Lords, in broad terms, the work and any substantial commercial rights are shared equally between the parties. The United Kingdom contribution up to the present has been in terms of manpower and work done solely in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom will bear a half share of the cost of testing the fuel in the Belgian reactor B.R.3. However, as I said last Tuesday, Belgonucleaire is a commercial undertaking and its agreement with the
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Atomic Energy Authority is necessarily cast on commercial lines. In these circumstances, it is not possible to publish the terms of the agreement between the two organisations, nor the expenditure which will be incurred. So far, work on this joint project has proceeded satisfactorily.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for dying me an Answer, but I am lost in amazement that such an Answer could come from Her Majesty's Government. This is taxpayers' money that is being handled. I understand that already £3 million voted for three years' work has been absorbed in two years' work, and the noble Earl himself announced that for the current year there will be an additional £2 million. I suppose that we can understand, therefore, that all other objectives are being ruled out and that, if we are putting all our reliance on the Vulcain project, the whole of the £2 million will be spent on tests going on this year. May we assume, therefore, that eventually we shall have to contribute between £3½ and £4 million to the examining and testing of Vulcain?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I think that the figure given by the noble Earl is roughly correct and, as I say, work is proceeding satisfactorily. I am sorry that it is not possible to make public further details but, as the noble Earl will be aware, the Atomic Energy Authority is itself in some respects a commercial organisation, and the Public Accounts Committee have accepted that its commercial agreements should remain confidential.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask one other question upon these terms, then? Is the agreement on the basis of a tender or on the basis of an order given for testing work to be done over there at cost plus profit? If the latter, has the noble Earl had time to examine what happened to expenditure of this sort when we were producing armaments before the last World War at cost plus 10 per cent.? That was the condition I found when I went into office and I had to go into the matter and get it reduced. I am amazed to think that Parliament should he excluded from information of this kind on this basis.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sorry that, for the reasons given, I cannot give any further information, but I will certainly represent the noble Earl's views to my right honourable friend.
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, can the noble Earl give an undertaking that the amount of money paid to Belgonucleaire will appear in the published accounts of A.E.A., when they lay their report before Parliament?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I cannot give any undertaking on the part of A.E.A. in this connection.
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, can the noble Earl state what reason he has for making that statement, in view of the fact that all accounts are normally published in the annual report of the Authority laid before Parliament. Why this difference in this case? What is the reason and what is the authority for departing from practice?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, the general accounts are published, but in this case it is a commercial undertaking between the two organisations.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his courteous replies, may I ask him whether this information is being withheld for defence reasons or for some other reason, because normally the published accounts contain the results, if not all the details, of commercial transactions?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, there is no defence consideration in this matter.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, is it not a fact that the monies to which the noble Earl drew our attention in the debate are definite grants made by Her Majesty's Government to A.E.A., and therefore this is not a strictly commercial operation between A.E.A. and Belgonucleaire? This is the use and expenditure of Government money. Would not the noble Earl agree that there are many occasions, particularly in the aircraft industry, when the Government announce what they have placed for the development of a particular aircraft or other weapon? Why
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are we faced with this situation? Is it a question of the Government having something to hide, as many of us suspect?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, the Government have nothing to hide in this matter. I regret that I can give no further information, but I shall certainly transmit the noble Lord's views to my right honourable friend.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, this is the third time that I have to say I am wholly dissatisfied with the answers. It is a shocking state of affairs, and now it is beginning to be understood by the Press. The Press also seem to be in great criticism of the Government. The Financial Times wants to know what is the answer to the question: "What is the time for decision?" It is time for decision now, as to what you are going to do. Reports come to us that the Government are not concerned yet whether they will he able to regard the Vulcain as satisfactory—and the expenditure goes on. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answers, I shall put an Unstarred Question down for Monday.
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, will the noble Earl draw the attention of his right honourable friend to the fact that, when the Bloodhound contract was being discussed, the price was revealed, and also the amount paid to Ferranti's who were the contractors? Is not this on all fours with that business arrangement?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, if there is to be an Unstarred Question, perhaps we may continue this discussion later.

CHAPEL STREET CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH (SOUTHPORT) BURIAL GROUND BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LEGAL AID BILL
Read 3a, (according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

WAR DAMAGE BILL
2.52 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, when the Battle of Britain was going on in the Autumn of 1940, Sir Winston Churchill announced that a comprehensive scheme would be introduced to compensate the owners of property which had been damaged by enemy action, and Sir Kingsley Wood before the end of the year brought in the first War Damage Bill. The Chairman of the War Damage Commission which was set up in 1941 was the noble Lord, Lord Silsoe, whose maiden speech this afternoon we look forward to hearing. The noble Lord continued to be Chairman of the War Damage Commission until 1949. I think that the smooth and successful accomplishment of the Commission's work, which included the establishment of sixteen regional offices, and the assessment and classification of 3½ million claims, is a fine tribute to the administrative skill and energy of the noble Lord.
A sum of £1,300 million has been paid out by the War Damage Commission, and to that must be added another £230 million paid by the Board of Trade in respect of business goods and chattels. The figures of £1,300 million and £230 million are a measure of the importance of the War Damage Scheme in our post-war reconstruction. These payments have been of two kinds: payments on a cost-of-works basis for rebuilding and repairs when the rebuilding or repairs have been done, and payments for loss of value in respect of damage when rebuilding or repair is not practicable. Your Lordships may perhaps wonder why any claims should still be outstanding now, so long after the war has come to an end. The delay has sometimes been due to uncertainty as to whether rebuilding will be consistent with town and country planning developments, whose future has not yet been clearly determined. But the proportion of possible remaining claims is very small, and it has long been agreed that the War Damage Commission
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and the War Damage Scheme ought to be wound up soon.
When the Government's proposals for winding it up were published in the White Paper of 1961, it was estimated that remaining claims still to be made or paid out might be as much as £40 million. But since then, possibly owing to the knowledge that time was running out, very rapid progress has been made, and it is now estimated, at the beginning of 1964, that the residue of claims cannot be more than £20 million. Our proposals in the Bill are simpler than those in the White Paper. We do not require, as the White Paper did, that claims should be registered, but only that they should be presented within specified limits of time.
Clause 1 of the Bill provides that claims either for rebuilding or repair on a cost-of-works basis or, if that is not practicable, claims for loss of value, must be presented within four years after the date of the commencement of this Act, which is October 1, 1964. That means that the last date on which claims can be entered will be September 30, 1968. Clause 7 allows a further period of six years for claims which, although they have been presented within the appropriate time, have not yet been pursued and finally settled. They do not finally lapse until 1974. After that, they will no longer be valid unless the fault for the delay is shown to be the fault of the Inland Revenue and not the fault of the claimant.
Clause 2 transfers the functions of the War Damage Commission to the Inland Revenue, who will take over its staff so that continuity of experience and knowledge may he preserved. As for any future claims which cannot be foreseen at all, such as damage done by unexploded mines or unexploded bombs going off, we propose that those should be dealt with by the War Office on the same basis as they deal with damage arising from tactical exercises.
Clause 4 applies to the Church War Damage Scheme, and it was represented by the Church Commissioners that there might be a few cases in which it would not be possible to decide by the end of 1968 whether a church destroyed in the war should be rebuilt on the same site or somewhere else. But there has now been an exchange of letters between

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the main Committee of the Church Commissioners and the War Damage Commission in which it has been agreed that when uncertainty may prevent the necessary work from being carried out within the four-year time limit, the Commission would agree that the appropriate amount of the Church payment may be allowed in respect of the cost of a new church elsewhere.
My Lords, this Bill has been through all its stages in another place without opposition and without amendment, and I hope that it may be similarly approved by your Lordships. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
3.0 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I must confess that when this Bill first came to my notice, before I actually read it I was somewhat at a loss to know why there was any need at this stage to have a War Damage Bill at all. I must confess also that it passed through my mind to wonder whether the Government were looking forward to some future unpleasant event and showing extraordinary foresight. But it soon became clear that it was a very reasonable tidying-up operation of what was, and still is, a highly important piece of legislation.
Some people, I know, have felt that the War Damage Commission has been perhaps unduly slow in carrying out its work and that it is a matter of surprise to some that there should still be any claims outstanding even now, very nearly nineteen years after the end of the war. But I was reminded by a friend that we are not by any means alone in dealing with these matters in what, at first sight, appears to be a rather slow fashion. In fact, I believe in Paris in the early part of this century there was a serious flood which caused widespread damage and the Commission which was set up to deal with this was not, in fact, wound up till 1952 or 1953. Undoubtedly the problems with which the War Damage Commission of this country had to deal were infinitely greater than anything that has ever taken place before. So I do not think it would be right for anybody to criticise the Government or the War Damage Commission for slowness in their work.
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I think they have been extremely reasonable to people who have very frequently had good reasons for delaying their claims. And, as the noble Earl has suggested, there are even now from time to time claims which arise from acts of the late war, which could not have been noticed until the present time. So I would not only entirely dissociate myself from anybody who grumbles at the slowness of this work, but would associate myself, as we on this side do, with the noble Earl's remarks concerning the noble Lord, Lord Silsoe, and the admirable work he and his colleagues have done in carrying out this very great work indeed. We look forward very much to hearing from the noble Lord in his maiden speech, and to some of his reflections upon this admirable operation which has been carried out.
It is, I think, something that we can all look back on with a certain amount of pride that this country decided during the war itself that damage which arose to individuals and to groups of people through an act of the war should not be borne by them personally but should be shared by the whole country. That was manifestly the right idea and it has been carried out in an admirable fashion. Not only has a great deal of considerable hardship which otherwise would have arisen been avoided, but, as the result of the actual damage from the war and in return for the vast amount of money that has been spent, and ungrudgingly spent—£1,300 million, to which the noble Earl referred, and the £230 million for chattels in addition to the other sums for buildings—we have some very great cities and portions of cities that have arisen; and I think we should look with pride on the bright side of this rather sombre picture. I would single out in particular the magnificent rebuilding in Plymouth and in Coventry which would have been impossible had it not been for the work of the War Damage Commission and for the provisions of the Act we are now seeking to supersede.
It is clearly right, however, that the time should come when an end should be brought to this Commission. It cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely, and it is clear, too, that there will be no hardship to any individual by the provisions of this

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Bill. They will now be given four years in which to lodge claims and then be given an additional six years in which to carry out the work. It seems that in that way the balance between the community at large, the taxpayer and the individual sufferer from war damage has been very fairly held.
I think a very important provision of this Bill, which the noble Earl mentioned, was that if after that period any future damage should arise through such things as unexploded bombs and mines, the sufferer will not be precluded from receiving compensation even though this takes place after the four years has expired. That has been taken care of in this Bill. In that way we can rest assured that there will be no suffering by individuals themselves. Although the £20 million outstanding appears to to be a rather large sum, if it is taken as a proportion of the £1,500 million which has already been paid out, it is clear that only a very small proportion still remains. So, as far as we are concerned, the noble Earl need have no fear but that we welcome the Bill and shall assist its passage in any way we can.
3.7 p.m.
LORD SILSOE: My Lords, the controlling words of this Bill appear in Clause 2:
"The War Damage Commission is hereby dissolved".
In speaking, therefore, on this Bill I must formally declare an interest, since I was appointed some 23 years ago now to be an original member of the team who formed that Commission. I use the word "formally" because there should be few of your Lordships who would not need to declare an interest in war damage, either as beneficiaries from the Fund or as having played some part in administering this great experiment. No fewer than one in every four of the rateable units of property throughout the United Kingdom received greater or less degrees of damage.
My Lords, I am indeed grateful that I shall receive the usual understanding accorded to one who speaks for the first time in this House. I shall need it, and shall need it more than others who on arrival in your Lordships' House have had previous experience of speaking
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in another place. I am a complete tyro in making such speeches, though I had been fortunate, as a member of the Parliamentary Bar, to address your Lordships in Committees in this House. I am not sure whether or not some of those speeches would be considered controversial, but in speaking on this Bill about war damage it would be difficult indeed to trespass against the custom that a maiden speech must never be controversial.
There is one other aspect of this matter that I ought to mention. I am well aware of the practice of the House that a Peer who has been a member of a public body appointed by the Government must in no circumstance appear to speak for or against the policy of the Government of the day in relation to that body. There is no danger that I might be accused of transgressing that rule this afternoon. May I make a personal interlude and thank the noble Earl who moved this Second Reading and the noble Lord who spoke for the Opposition for the kind remarks that were made about myself?
I wish to speak for a short time on three aspects of war damage: one, the general scheme of the Act; two, what I hope and suggest will live after these rather frightening words "The War Damage Commission is … dissolved;" and, third, to express a few words of thanks to the thousands of people who have played a part in this scheme. In a sentence, or two sentences, to be exact, the scheme of this Act was that all worthwhile buildings should be repaired out of the Fund at the price or cost existing on the day of the repair. Secondly, non-worthwhile buildings were to receive some compensation, based on value, but the Government of the day was invited to increase that value (a process which became known as "escalation") at a later date if values changed. It turned out that 19 out of 20 properties which were damaged came in the first class and only one out of 20 in the second class. As the noble Lord who spoke from the Opposition stated, this was a tremendously important part of the scheme, but it was a very near-run thing that it did not happen at all.
Before the war, insurance companies had for years refused to underwrite any

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insurances against war damage. In 1936, that great institution, Lloyd's, said that they would not underwrite any loss. In May, 1937, if I may be allowed to quote the words, the Government of the day stated:
"No scheme of insurance of property against war risks would be appropriate to the conditions of a future war."
The most effective form, the Government said, of protection against air raids lay in the effective prosecution of rearmament. In January, 1939—a great step forward—the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after agreeing that no insurance scheme was possible, said:
"Compensation for war damage ought not to be treated as merely the concern of those who suffer. It must be regarded as falling on the community as a whole and as a proper subject for public funds."
The Government, it was stated, proposed to make such contribution as circumstances made possible when the extent of the damage was known; in other words, a statement that they would contribute a part of the cost, but only after the war.
There was a great deal of pressure against that statement, and a Committee of five important people was set up in July, 1939, who confirmed the Government's view and said that no payments could conceivably be made until after the war. The war started. A Committee of experts was then set up, under Mr. Justice Uthwatt (one of his many Committees), to recommend a method of assessing compensation. They were unanimous that the compensation could be based only on pre-war levels (and they fixed March, 1939, as the relevant date), and could be paid only after the war. The war continued. Bombing started in August, 1940, and it was not until one year after the war had been going that this great decision was made, by a Coalition Government of all Parties, that compensation should be paid on the basis mentioned, and there was a definite promise that for good buildings, at least, payment should be made in full as and when the properties were mended.
The second subject I should like to raise, quite briefly, is which of the various things that had to be done in War Damage Commission days will live after their death. Your Lordships may not remember that in 1941 a statutory
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body without a Minister at its head did not exist. There are a good many of them now, but in those days there was none that had important relations with either House of Parliament. The relations between a Commission of that sort and Parliament had to be worked out gradually. This was done by Members of both Houses. For example, it was unheard of in 1941 for a Member of this House or the other place ever to write a letter direct to the Chairman of a Commission. At the end of the war, over 90 per cent. of such letters were written: it was thought to be a better "drill," because, if I may be allowed to say so, it was quicker, and because the letter was better. In those days it was unheard of that a member of the Commission, or the Chairman, should be invited to the Committee Rooms of either House to speak and be questioned by Members of Parliament, of both Houses. Such a procedure started gradually. In the first place, meetings took place with a Party in one House, then with both Parties in one House, and finally with both Parties in both Houses. I hope that this drill, which necessarily had to be worked out, will continue long beyond the death of the War Damage Commission.
Had the Bill been as was proposed for the first year of the war, what would have happened? Mention has been made of £1,300 million paid out. The present staff of the War Damage Commission have been kind enough to supply me with figures relating that sum to pre-war figures of cost, and it is almost exactly one half, or about £650 million. On average, therefore, all war damage sufferers would have received about one half of the cost. But averages are highly dangerous in this matter, because when you could mend your property did not depend upon your own will but depended upon building licences, upon planning consents and the like. Some came early, some came late. Those who came early got much nearer to the figure which would have been paid on pre-war levels; for by the end of the war building costs had not gone up tremendously. Some people, however, had to wait a long time.

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Your Lordships will forgive me a short story about an old member of the Bar. When he retired he was talking to a lad, and he said, "During the early years of my life I lost a lot of cases I should have won, but during the later years of my life, fortunately, I won a great many cases I should have lost. So justice has been done." My Lords, justice would not have been done had we had pre-war figures. We should not have been able to say, as the Prime Minister did, that, "We all stand in together". Those who came last would have suffered. Of those may I mention (perhaps to declare yet another interest) the four Inns of Court? I believe that, of all people in the country who owe a debt of Gratitude to the War Damage Act, it is the four Inns of Court, perhaps in even greater proportion than the Churches. In fact, £4 million has been paid to the four Inns of Court. What would have happened if, instead of £4 million, £⅓ million or £1¼ million or even £1 million, depending on the levels, had been paid? Coventry Cathedral received £1 million. What would have happened if they received one-third of £1 million? And what of the City halls, churches, and, if I may mention it, Lambeth Palace, which received £200,000? I was proud to be present at a service which the late Archbishop of Canterbury held in Lambeth Palace immediately after its reconse ration, in which he told us from the pulpit that this, he thought, was the first service thanking Almighty God for an Act of Parliament.
Two other things which stem from the War Damage Commission will form an important part of our life: the first is a committee which was formed in the war in order collectively to ask the Commission for money for churches of all denominations and all religions. That is now called the Churches Main Committee. It is not statutory. We all meet together and we discuss various claims from the Government. I venture to suggest that that is a most useful thing which will never die.
Finally, there is a body, which some of your Lordships may know well, called the Lands Tribunal, a court of record of this country which stemmed entirely from the Appeals Tribunal of the War Damage Commission, which, for the first time, arranged for a statutory court consisting partly of lawyers and partly of surveyors.
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A third matter I wish to discuss is the question of thanks. I want to mention one person who I believe has not been mentioned before publicly, the draftsman of this Bill. It was a really magnificent effort to produce from a brief, which I have read, on one side of one sheet of notepaper, the whole of this complicated system, and it was found later that few Amendments had to be made by Parliament to put it right. His name is Sir Alan Ellis. He lived long enough to see the success of his work; and I wish, I believe for the first time, to mention a name to whom I personally, at any rate, and I think the public, owe a great deal.
Then, of course, there is the staff of the Commission. First of all, there was the administrative and executive staff, headed of course by a few permanent civil servants who formed and guided policy. Most of the staff and all of the Commission were amateurs. They were collected together in 1941, not an easy time to find a staff; they were either much over age or much under age. They included a lot of boys and girls waiting to be called up and the like, and many people who had passed their working life a long time ago. I remember a curious statistic, that the eldest was 85 and the youngest 14½. It is an unusual feature. They totalled at one time 2,500 people, and they performed most extremely valuable work.
The technical staff also was difficult to find. They came from private practice where they had been used to making valuations professionally, but biased in favour of their clients. Almost at once they were able to become impartial and to give a decision which was in favour of neither one side nor the other. Then there were the valuers of the Inland Revenue, known to all of us, who worked in such a colossal way for this War Damage Scheme. Statistics I think show their worth. They had 200,000 value-payments decisions to make. All of them were appealable to a court; only 300 were in fact appealed against, and only 100 appeals succeeded.
Then, the most extraordinary agents of the War Damage Commission were local authorities. I believe that they played as important a part in this huge scheme as anybody else. Out of that figure of £1,300 million no less than £300 million was expended by local

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authorities on repayment by the Commission. May I also say a special word of praise to the London local authorities who had to face the V.1 and V.2 bombs. The chairman of the Commission of the time was asked to co-ordinate this work. He was given no staff and he obtained from places which did not suffer war damage ten good people from local government to supervise. We all—the chairman and the staff—are delighted that they were nicknamed "eavesdroppers". Those of you who remember my other name will see the point. Then, architects, surveyors, solicitors, and other professional men—a huge force of labour—all concerned with sending in claims to the War Damage Commission and all really acting broadly in a fair way, all deserve thanks. Also, I am sure your Lordships will allow me to mention those wonderful voluntary workers of the Women's Voluntary Services, the Citizen's Advice Bureaux, poor man's valuers and the people of that kind who all worked this big scheme.
Lastly, a very important part indeed in the success of the scheme was played by the Press, both the general Press and the technical Press. It was absolutely vital that it should be got over to these 3½, million claimants, first, what the scheme was, what the dates were, and what should be done about late claims. Only once did the Commission have to pay a penny piece by way of paid advertisement to get information in. No fewer than 200 Press statements went in in full for the public. All these many thousands of people, some paid, many not, were working in one way or another to help the 3½ million claimants, and helped to form this large war damage team. Speaking, if your Lordships will permit me, as an ex-Chairman, I think thanks should be given both by the Commissioners and by their customers to all these many people.
The war damage task has, it is generally thought, succeeded. Probably the finest part of it was the grand concept that we would win the war, that the full repair cost could be promised with certainty, and could be promised at a time when we were out of Europe; we were winning, but had not won, the Battle of Britain, and we were without Allies outside the Commonwealth. Although the Commission will soon be
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dissolved, its members and staff are grateful for this great decision made by all Parties in Parliament in 1941; and they are grateful, too, that they were allowed, by using this huge sum of money, to play a part in rebuilding destroyed and damaged buildings and, in so doing, to build a much better Britain.
3.29 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, it is with a great sense of pleasure that I speak immediately after the noble Lord, Lord Silsoe, and so have an opportunity to congratulate him on the excellence and clarity of his maiden speech. His modesty and the way he has presented the facts have prevented him from revealing how much he himself has played in this great enterprise. But I can assure your Lordships that we owe almost everything to his leadership in one of the greatest enterprises of the war. We are intensely grateful to him. I venture to hope that the noble Lord will frequently be here, speaking in your Lordships' House, in the future.
On behalf of the Church of England and the other Churches represented in the Churches Main Committee, I should like to express our entire satisfaction with the way in which this War Damage Scheme has been operated. Under the War Damage Act, 1943, properties used for ecclesiastical purposes were wholly or partially relieved from the payment of war-damage contributions. The amount of any payment in respect of war damage was left to the discretion of the Commission after suitable consultations, but a pledge was given that the Churches would be treated no worse because they had not paid contribution or had paid only a reduced contribution.
The principles on which what is known as the Church Scheme was to be operated were settled in an exchange of letters between the then Bishop of London (later Archbishop and now Lord Fisher of Lambeth) and the Chairman of the War Damage Commission, whom we so heartily welcome in your Lordships' House as the noble Lord, Lord Silsoe. This exchange of letters took place on the advice of a Committee composed of almost all denominations of the Christian Churches in this country, and was presided over by the Bishop of London. This Committee has become

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known as the Churches Main Committee. It is a matter of great satisfaction to all concerned that the denominations were thus able to agree among themselves the principles on which the payments should be based; and in the twenty years which have now elapsed since that time the Churches Main Committee has established itself as an important and valuable piece of Government machinery.
I believe I am right in saying that the total number of churches damaged in the United Kingdom was about 12,000, and in the administration of the Church Scheme the Commission paid out, up to 1962, a sum exceeding £40 million. Among the Churches assisted are, of course, many of the most famous in the country. I myself, first in Plymouth and later in Liverpool, have been very conscious of the devastation of war damage. I was vicar of the mother church of Plymouth, St. Andrew's, which was very badly damaged but has been beautifully restored. And when I went up to Liverpool I found the two main churches of the City, St. Mary, Woolton-on-the-Hill, and the parish church of Liverpool, Our Lady and St. Nicholas, both extensively damaged. Both have been beautifully restored. I therefore know first hand of the devastation of war damage, and I am also conscious of the invaluable help which we have received from the Commission.
Her Majesty's Government have now decided, reasonably enough, that steps must be taken to bring the Scheme to an end. The principles of the Bill before us are quite clear. There is to be a four-year time limit from the appointed day, namely, October 1, 1964, during which claims have to be made and the work carried out. The Churches Main Committee has collected particulars of outstanding cases, and the War Damage Commission have reviewed all existing applications. I understand that applications amounting to about £2 million are still outstanding, of which the great majority are in the Church of England and, to a lesser degree, in the Methodist Church. I am advised that, in general, there will be no difficulty whatever in complying with the four-year time limit, though it is important that Church authorities should take steps at once to see that
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their applications are in order and that the work is in train.
The particular clause with which the Churches are concerned is Clause 4, which deals with the special conditions operated under the exchange of letters in 1943 and known as the Church Scheme. Provided that the repairs to existing churches or the erection of new churches in substitution for war-damaged buildings is carried out within the terms of the Bill, there should be no difficulty whatsoever. But it is possible that there may be some exceptional cases where, owing to factors largely beyond the control of the churches, work cannot be completed within the time limit. The Churches Main Committee have been in correspondence with the War Damage Commission, and it appears that there should be no difficulty in meeting these few difficult cases. It is good to know that, in the best traditions of the Scheme, complete understanding and agreement have been reached between the Commission and the Churches Main Committee. It should be noted in passing, however, that under Clause 7 of the Bill there can normally be no right, after the end of the period of ten years from the appointed day, to receive payments from the Commission in respect of any war damage. It only remains for me to express again, on behalf of the Churches, our appreciation of the generous and understanding way in which this Scheme has been worked and to congratulate all those concerned in its operation.
3.37 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not think there is anything left for me to say, except to convey the congratulations of all your Lordships to the noble Lord, Lord Silsoe, on a maiden speech which I found to be of absorbing interest in every way. I hope that we shall often hear him again. I thought he was historically interesting in describing to us the history of insurance against war damage. It was also of some constitutional interest, because I did not know that the War Damage Commission had had so much influence on the relationship between Members of Parliament and non-Parliamentary Commissions. It was also of some religious interest, for he told us that it had resulted in the first religious service in which

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thanksgiving had been offered for an Act of Parliament.
And, finally, even in the demise of the War Damage Commission it seems to have conferred yet a further blessing, according to the noble Lord, in enabling this Bill to be brought in—which is the first example the noble Lord has seen of a Bill which is fairly comprehensible. I thought the noble Lord spoke with some little feeling on this point. No doubt this may be due to the fact that he is much more familiar than most of your Lordships with the previous Act, the Act of 1943, which I happen to have with me, and which I see contains, in Section 13, the following gem of English language:
"In the case of a value payment made in exercise of the power conferred by this section in respect of war damage in respect of which a payment of cost of works would have been payable if the kind of payment to be made in respect thereof had fallen to be determined under section seven of this Act apart from any other provision, the material time shall, subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of the Seventh Schedule to this Act, be the date of the determination of the Commission to exercise that power."
I am glad to think that the language of the Bill which I am now commending to your Lordships for approval is perhaps a little easier to understand and I should like to thank those of your Lordships who have supported it.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

UGANDA BILL
3.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Perhaps I might begin with a brief account of its origin and purpose. On October 9, 1963, Uganda ceased to be a part of the Queen's Dominions, though remaining within the Commonwealth. The Bill before your Lordships' House is consequential upon the Uganda legislation which enacted this and certain other changes in the Constitution which Uganda had enjoyed since Independence, exactly a year before. Our own legislation is necessary in order to make it
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legally possible to treat Uganda in British law as if she were still for practical purposes a part of the Queen's Dominions.
Your Lordships may wonder why there has been a delay in bringing forward the Bill and why its application is retrospective. First, I would say in this connection that the Uganda legislation which has necessitated this Bill was not of our making. Furthermore, we received short notice of the intention of the Uganda Government to take this step. Thirdly, some features of the Uganda legislation in its possible effects upon British law, and the drafting of the Bill, required a good deal of technical discussion. There has also been a very considerable amount of consultation with the Government of Uganda. The time schedule was further prolonged by the incidence of the Parliamentary Recess and, more recently, by the events in East Africa which inevitably and rightly have been a first charge on our attention.
The Bill is drafted to have retrospective effect to the date when Uganda modified her Constitution, because there would otherwise be an awkward hiatus in the operation of certain enactments in our own law as they might affect Uganda—just to give one example, the law governing maintenance orders. As my honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State said when commending the Bill in another place—and I do assure your Lordships of this—there is nothing in any way sinister about the retrospection.
Perhaps I should preface my exposition of the Bill's provisions by some reference to the nature of the main changes brought about in the Constitution of Uganda by the legislation passed last October by the Uganda Parliament. As I have said, Uganda then ceased to be a part of the Queen's Dominions. The office of Governor General was abolished and a President was elected. As Your Lordships will know, the first President is the Kabaka of Buganda, the largest of the four Ugandan Kingdoms, which still survive as monarchical elements in the State of Uganda. It may possibly be of some interest, also, to some of your Lordships to know that the first President of Uganda served for some time with the Grenadier Guards

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during the war, and that regiment has seen fit on the occasion of his becoming President of Uganda to make him an Honorary Colonel of the regiment.
This constitutional peculiarity of these monarchical Constitutions within the main State of Uganda is invoked by the Government of Uganda as the reason for denying the title of "Republic" to the new Constitution. Dr. Obote, the Prime Minister, has in fact repudiated the title of "Republic", preferring that his country should be known as "the Sovereign State of Uganda".
The Bill itself is fundamentally a technical one. It follows broadly the provisions of similar enactments passed when India, Pakistan, Cyprus, Ghana, Tanganyika and, most recently, Nigeria became republics. With your Lordships' permission, I will now run through the clauses with one or two comments on each. Clause 1(1) provides that, as regards the places named in Clause 1(2), all existing laws and, as regards other places to which any Act of Parliament or Order in Council extends, the operation of any such Act or Order shall not be affected as a result of Uganda's change of status. Clause 1(3) gives the whole of Clause 1 retrospective effect to October 9, 1963, which is the date on which Uganda's constitutional changes took effect.
Clause 2 gives power to make such adaptations to any Act of Parliament, by Order in Council, as appear necessary as a consequence of Uganda's change of status, and provides that such Orders or any other Orders varying or revoking previous Orders may be made retrospective to the same date, October 9. Clause 3 generally relates to appeals to the Privy Council that are pending. This clause does not follow the recent Nigeria Republic Act, but returns to the form of similar sections in the Ghana and Tanganyika Republic Acts. This is because Uganda chose to deal with appeals to the Privy Council in a way similar to Ghana and Tanganyika. The clause provides for pending appeals to continue to be heard by the Judicial Committee as the result of arrangements made with Uganda.
Clause 3(5) is, however, a departure from the two precedents which I have given to the House. In those cases, the subsection provides expressly for the
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termination of all appeals to the Judicial Committee save those dealt with in the subsection—namely, those appeals which are pending (of which, I understand, there is only one case). But Clause 3(5) prevents this Bill from affecting any right of appeal which may continue to subsist under Uganda law. This provision is necessary as we understand that the legislation in Uganda providing for the recent constitutional changes did not have the effect of expressly abolishing the right of appeal in all cases. We understand that it has been abolished in civil and criminal cases, but it is possible that appeals in constitutional cases under Section 96 of the Uganda Constitution may continue to lie to the Privy Council. This can be clarified only if and when such an appeal comes before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council when that Committee will decide whether or not it may hear the case, or further legislation is enacted in Uganda. Our object is simply to leave the matter open.
Clause 4 is self-explanatory. This is a slight departure from the Tanganyika and Nigeria precedents in order to avoid the use of the term "Republic" which, for the reasons which I have given to your Lordships, would not in this case be appropriate.
To conclude, I should like to recall that the Prime Minister of Uganda, Dr. Obote, on the occasion of the change of constitutional status from which the need for this Bill arises, paid graceful tribute to Her Majesty the Queen as
"the head and symbol of unity of the free and independent Commonwealth nations"
and went on to express his appreciation of the Commonwealth. It was my good fortune to be the guest of the Uganda Government on this occasion, and I should like to pay a personal tribute to the warmth with which I was received and to the hospitality which I received from their Government. I was made to feel a very, very welcome guest. I know that we for our part—your Lordships on both sides of the House will, I know, join me in this—will wish Uganda well under her revised Constitution, and continue to value her participation in the Commonwealth. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
3.48 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I think we are all very grateful to the noble Duke for his extremely interesting explanation of the background of this Bill, and for his very lucid and accurate account of its contents. I shall not myself complain about the delay in introducing the Bill because, although it is perfectly true that there has been a delay, I do not think it has caused any serious inconvenience to anyone. Of course, Bills of this kind have now become common form when a Commonwealth country ceases to be part of Her Majesty's Dominions. But as the noble Duke pointed out—and I think this is an extremely important matter—there is one important difference between the constitutional change in Uganda and the constitutional changes in other African countries such as Tanganyika, Ghana and Nigeria, when the Queen ceased to be Head of State in those countries.
The latter—the three countries to which I have just referred—became Republics, whereas Uganda has become a sovereign State with a Presidential Head; and, as the noble Duke rightly said, the Prime Minister of Uganda attaches very great importance to the recognition of this new status of Uganda. Of course the difference between a Republic and a State with a Presidential Head is much more than verbal. Republicanism is, after all, regarded by most people as incompatible with monarchy, and this view would certainly be taken in Uganda. But as your Lordships are aware, Uganda has a number of ancient monarchies which, before the British came, were the established system of government, and they have therefore played a much longer part than we have in the history of that country. The people of Uganda still feel a justifiable pride in their ancient monarchies, and intense loyalty towards their traditional rulers.
It was therefore most desirable—and, indeed, an admirable achievement in the Constitution of Uganda—to preserve these monarchies in this new, independent and united country. By framing the Constitution so that a President, elected for a limited period of time, becomes Head of State, each of the traditional rulers becomes eligible for this post, and I am sure nothing will
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do more for the unity of this new country than this wise association between loyalty to the State, loyalty to Uganda as a whole, and loyalty to a traditional ruler.
I am sure we are all delighted, as the noble Duke has said, that the Kabaka of Buganda has become the first President of Uganda, and we wish him the utmost success in his great office. Those who have the good fortune to know him will realise his devotion to his own people and the affection which he still has for this country which goes back to the time that he spent with fellow members of his regiment here in this country, and which has survived, in spite of the years of exile which he has shared with many other leaders of the new Commonwealth.
We are also delighted that Uganda, under its new Constitution, has elected to stay a member of the Commonwealth. Of course, one of the many advantages of Commonwealth membership is the unwritten obligation of mutual aid in times of difficulty, and Uganda was in a position to realise the advantages of Commonwealth membership very soon after it chose to remain one of us, for this made it possible for Mr. Obote to ask for our help when faced by mutiny among his armed forces. He knew that not only should we send our troops immediately, as we did, but that we should withdraw them the moment we were asked to do so—and I understand that the Secretary of State has already agreed to withdraw these troops very shortly from Uganda. This is surely a striking illustration of the value of the Commonwealth relationship. I hope that the Secretary of State, from whom we hope to have a report on his return from East Africa, will have taken advantage of his visit to Uganda to find out what further assistance we may be in a position to offer in relation to the training of the armed forces.
There is one unsolved problem in Uganda which I hope your Lordships will allow me to mention, because of the fact that I and my colleagues, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Molson, where unable to solve it when we were in Uganda in 1962 and because of the importance of a solution of this problem for the future peace and stability of the country. I am referring

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to what is commonly known as the problem of the lost counties of Bunyoro. It does credit to both Uganda and Bunyoro that since independence there has been no serious violence over the lost counties, but whether this can be avoided later on will depend on the willingness of both tribes to accept the referendum in the lost counties as the means of a final settlement. I am speaking in an entirely personal capacity, and I trust that no one will think that I am interfering in the domestic affairs of another country. I am merely taking the opportunity of expressing an opinion because I and other noble Lords had occasion to be associated with this problem so recently.
There is the possibility, I think, of a final settlement; but the outcome of the referendum will depend on whether the referendum itself is conducted with scrupulous fairness, and I have no doubt that the central Government will take every care to see that this is the case. If this is done, if the referendum itself is conducted with impartiality, then it only remains for both tribes to accept the popular verdict; and no one can doubt, I think, that the peace and stability of Uganda will depend on whether a reasonable settlement of this longstanding dispute is arrived at.
There is only one question I should like to address to the noble Duke, and it is on the subject of Clause 3, subsection (5), to which he referred in his opening remarks. This, I believe—and I think the noble Duke said this himself—is the only respect in which the provisions in this Bill about appeals to the Privy Council differ from the provisions in other, similar Acts, such as the Ghana and Tanganyika Acts. This subsection will allow appeals in constitutional cases, though appeals in civil and criminal cases will no longer be permitted.
I think we are all delighted when any Commonwealth country wishes to retain any element of the right of appeal to the Privy Council, but it was certainly not made clear in another place—and I do not think the noble Duke, if I may say so with respect, made it clear this afternoon—whether this retention of the right of appeal in constitutional cases was in fact the wish of the Uganda
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Government or whether it was just a slip, such as occurs very often in legislation both here and elsewhere, in Uganda legislation dealing with this matter. Of course, if it was a slip, then clearly it will be corrected later on by the Uganda Legislature; but I should be very much obliged, and I think that many people who have followed the discussion on this Bill, both here and in another place, would be grateful, if it were possible to provide an answer to that question. My Lords, I support the Bill, and I sincerely hope it will receive a speedy passage through your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, may I ask him whether there is any other Constitution in which an hereditary monarch has been described as ruler of a "tribe"? I noticed that the noble Earl twice said "tribes". These hereditary monarchies are of some age.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, in Africa, as the noble Earl will no doubt be aware, the hereditary system prevails, and many of the tribal chiefs are in fact known as kings. They are, therefore, monarchs.
3.58 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends and myself, I should like to support this Bill. We think a very interesting constitutional situation has been created by the position in Uganda, with an elected President in a monarchy. Taking the Commonwealth as a whole, I think we have in it almost every type of Constitution possible, and this is another one—an instance of how wide-ranging and all-embracing the Commonwealth is. Of course, its nature is changing the whole time, but, so far as I am concerned, I welcome the change because I believe the Commonwealth is adapting itself to an ever-changing world, particularly an ever-changing Asia and Africa, and this is a good thing.
The strength of the Commonwealth, I feel, can be shown in a hundred ways, but I will instance only two. One is the one instanced by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, when he said that three territories, in fact—Uganda, Tanganyika and Kenya—came to us for military assistance when difficulties arose recently in East Africa. To my mind, that is one of the finest tributes that

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could be paid to us in this country. We are all very glad indeed to have been able to give this assistance; and we commend our own troops on the fine performance they put up in these various countries.
The second instance is the instance of our own people. We have in Kensington a place the noble Duke knows very well, the Commonwealth Institute; a new institute which has been put up. It is a very attractive building and no fewer than 13,000 visitors go to it every week. In permanent exhibition terms, this is quite a lot; and, apart from that, a large number of activities are carried on by the Commonwealth Institute throughout the country: travelling exhibitions, schools advisory services, film strips, lectures, conferences, and, of course, at the Institute itself there is a reference library, a first-class art gallery, a theatre, and so on. All these are being more and more utilised; people, and especially young people, are ever more interested in the Commonwealth. There is a branch in Scotland as well. The only failure—and this is a failure not of the Institute, but of the Treasury—is that we have not yet been able to get a very modest branch in Wales. I do not know whether the Treasury thinks that Wales is not interested in the Commonwealth, but we hope next year to be able to start in Wales as well.
This is just an instance of the sort of feeling existing in this country about the Commonwealth. I would say that there is apparent in this country a warmer feeling towards the Commonwealth at the present moment than I have ever known in my time, and I have been connected for many years with both the Commonwealth and the Empire. I am not talking about the few people who were, shall I say, 110 per cent. Empireminded; I am talking about the average schoolchild, particularly, and the average men and women in this country. They are very anxious to know all about developments in the Commonwealth.
I was going to say that this is not the place to discuss the question of the intended merger of the Commonwealth Relations service with the Foreign Service and the retention of the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and his Department, with the noble Duke—if he is still at that time
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in office—and his colleague Lord Lansdowne; but, instead, I will say that this is not the debate in which to discuss these things. However, I would say—and this is the place to say this—that I hope that, when the arrangements are carried out, great care will be taken in the beginning in Africa, and in States such as Uganda, because we have a very special relationship there. I hope that some of the old Commonwealth Relations people will be retained in this sort of country, which has a long history of association with us and great feelings of friendship to us, as, indeed, we have to them.
I would particularly stress to-day the economic advances that have taken place in Uganda in the past ten or eleven years. These have been achieved largely by the Uganda Development Corporation—though not entirely so; there was a great deal of other development as well. But the Corporation has made an immense contribution to the development of Uganda. It was set up by the Uganda Government to assist, in association with private enterprise, in development in finance, property, industry, mining, commerce, hotels and tourism; and its work has been greatly appreciated. And I am sure that the man who has been responsible for this more than anyone else is the present Chairman, Mr. J. T. Simpson, who is retiring before the end of the year as Chairman, but who is to stay on as a Director. I should like to pay a tribute to him now, as this is possibly the last chance we shall have to do so. He has assisted in building up this quite remarkable corporation.
My Lords, I should now like to say a word on the question of military assistance. I gather from reports in the Press, and particularly those in The Times, which I have read in the last few days, that we are soon to withdraw our officers and N.C.O.s from the Uganda forces, and that in their place will be sent out a military mission to the Uganda Army. I gather that flying training for Ugandans will be carried out under the scheme established in Kenya. I believe this is the right course to take. I feel that the practice of having European officers or N.C.O.s in armies in Africa is probably coming to an end; and this military mission is far more appropriate in the I circumstances.

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I have only one regret that I must convey to the noble Duke on this Bill. He will expect it, for I have voiced it on every Bill of this kind in the last six or seven years—and perhaps longer—though without the slightest effect. That is that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is no longer to receive appeals, except those which are already pending. There is one doubt in this case, to which I will refer in a moment; but I have felt for years past that we in this country have shown a singular lack of imagination, a singular lack of initiative and a good deal of parochialism in not being prepared, and in not taking the necessary steps—and this is the point, that we have not taken the necessary steps—to fit the Judicial Committee for its new role, so that it could become a real Court for the Commonwealth as it had been for the Empire. Those steps have not been taken; we are faced with independent country after independent country going out from within the ægis of the Judicial Committee; and hence there is no body of law being built up, as there used to be under the old set-up. We now have Supreme Courts or Courts of Appeal in large numbers of territories, with possibly very differing judgments on the same issues. This is a serious matter, and attention has been called to it by university law teachers, among others. This is, to me, one of the important points, though not the most important: the most important is that here is another Commonwealth link being unnecessarily severed, and due to our own fault. We cannot take any pride in this.
I gather from the noble Duke to-day that the Judicial Committee, although it will not be able to hear appeals in civil and criminal matters, may be able to hear appeals on constitutional questions. I am surprised that there is any doubt on this. I should have thought that in this Bill, when we are dealing with the whole matter, it should be possible not only for us but for everybody else to be clear as to what the position is. To have doubt at this stage seems to me extraordinary. The Judicial Committee either can or cannot hear appeals in the future. There is nothing against making the situation quite clear in this Bill. Why some unfortunate litigant will have to
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go to the enormous expense of coming from Uganda, taking an appeal to the Privy Council here, in order to ascertain something that we should now be doing for him by putting it in the Bill, I cannot understand. There may be a reason for it; but the noble Duke has not given us any. No doubt he knows the reason—perhaps he does not want to give it: in which case I will not press him too hard. I am certain that if he could give the reason, he would do so. But I feel that we should register surprise that at this stage in the proceedings a matter of this kind should be left in tile air, so to speak. That is all I have to say on this Bill, my Lords. My noble friends and myself wish the sovereign. State of Uganda well, and we shall look forward to steady progress in that part of Africa in the future, as in the past.
4.10 p.m.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl and to the noble Lord for the way in which they have welcomed this Bill and for their most helpful and constructive speeches. The convention of the House forbids me from alluding to them as "my noble friends"; but they both are that; and I am grateful to them on this occasion, as on many occasions in the past, for their support on a measure such as this.
The main question that both noble Lords raised was of appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. I must apologise to the noble Earl, because I am afraid I misled him. I had intended to say that on constitutional matters appeals "may be heard", rather than "will be heard". I think the noble Earl understood that. I should like, if I can, to try to throw some light on this point. It is a highly technical matter, and I am afraid that, by trying to throw light on it, I may only add to the confusion.
The position is this. Appeals come under Section 96 of the Uganda Constitution and this is an entrenched clause. The Uganda Government, for reasons of their own, did not see fit to propose the necessary measures to amend this entrenched clause; therefore it remains in their Constitution. We have had considerable discussions with the Uganda Government on this subject. At the risk of being probably

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too frank, I would say that they made it quite clear that, for their own reasons, they did not want to go through the procedure necessary to amend their Constitution. The position is obscure, but we are not in a position to force the Uganda Government to take the necessary measures to amend this entrenched clause in their Constitution. For that reason, it will be put to the test only if a case comes before the Judicial Committee to decide whether or not an appeal does lie before that Committee. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore: we did all that we could, but there was nothing that we could do to force them to amend this clause.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I thought I had made it clear that I appreciate that this is only permissive. It leaves the Uganda Government merely with power to appeal in con-constitutional cases. But what I want to know is whether it was the deliberate intention of the Uganda Government to leave this section of the Constitution unamended or whether they are likely to amend it and therefore this right of appeal will disappear.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I find myself in some difficulty, because I do not wish to put the intention of the Uganda Government, which may not be ours. Perhaps it will be sufficient if I say that I think it remained unamended due to the complications of the existing Uganda Constitution, containing all these monarchies, and that they preferred to leave the matter unresolved rather than take a final decision. But I would make it clear that this is not something we are imposing upon them. The decision is entirely theirs.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, will not expect me to follow him in his interesting remarks on the Commonwealth Institute. I know he has done a great deal of work in the Commonwealth Institute and I think it is only a matter of time before Wales becomes a member of the Institute. Perhaps I was anticipating his remarks about the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and came armed with some evidence from the debate when this Bill was before another place, when something was said which might have given him
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some hope; but unfortunately my noble friend Lord Dundee removed my copy of Hansard when he left the House, and I have been disarmed. But if the noble Lord will look at that, I think that he will be interested. He will also know that there is to be a conference of the Commonwealth Law Society, and we may hope that something on the lines of what he has long been advocating may be proposed. If so, a great deal of the credit will have to go to the noble Lord. I will not detain the House any longer and again thank the noble Lords for the co-operation I have received.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

RATING (INTERIM RELIEF) BILL
4.15 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD AILWYN in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Grants by reference to proportion of elderly persons in population
1.—(1) If in the year 1964–65 or any subsequent year not being later than the year 1967–68 the number of persons over the age of sixty-five estimated to be included in the population of any rating authority's area exceeds one-tenth of the estimated total of that population, the Minister shall pay to that authority a grant in respect of that year at a rate of five pounds per head of the excess.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "over the age of sixty-five" and to insert "under the age of sixteen". The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, I should like to make two preliminary remarks. The first is that I hope that this Amendment will not be regarded as hostile to the Bill. We approved the Bill on Second Reading—I hope we were not too devastating in our approval—and certainly have no desire to sabotage the Bill in Committee. The Amendment is an attempt to be helpful and to provide what we regard as a more helpful

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criterion for hardship in Clause 1 than the criterion which is contained in the Bill as it stands.
Secondly, I want to apologise for the form of the Amendment. I quite realise that we have not gone far enough, because the clause provides that there is to be a grant of £5 "for each such person in excess of that population". We are substituting a different criterion and it may be that £5 per person may not be the appropriate figure but some other figure—probably a smaller one. Therefore I hope that, in discussing this Amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, will not make too great play with the fact that the Amendment is not perfect as it stands. I should be happy if he were to say to me that he accepts the idea in principle and that he would bring forward at a later stage of the Bill an Amendment which would make the necessary provisions in the proper manner.
The case for the Amendment is that under Clause 1 we are seeking to give grants to local authorities in respect of a number of years for each person over 65 years of age who goes to make up more than one-tenth of the population. It is assumed, and I think it has been clearly stated, that although the local authorities which receive the grant in respect of these old people are under no obligation to use it for the purpose of relief, nevertheless it is a criterion and will be taken into account in the relief which is given generally to deal with hardship under the rating provisions.
We criticised Clause 1 on Second Reading. We pointed out that local authorities receiving grant were under no obligation to use it for the specific purpose. But I am not making that point to-day. I am simply making the point that in deciding whether grants should be made we think that the grant would be more appropriately made and it would be a better test of hardship if it were on the basis of the number of children under the age of 16 in a given community than the number of old people over 65.
I have not in the time avalable been able to get many figures to support this, but I have been able to obtain a few from the Census. Among the local
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authorities who have the highest proportion of children under the age of 16 are Leeds, Leicester and Oldham. These are typical industrial towns which one would assume would have a high proportion of people who would suffer hardship under the revaluation provisions. In each of these cases the proportion of children under the age of 16 is of the order of 24 per cent. On the other hand, in Worthing, which I am told is typical of a large number of seaside resorts, the figure is 15·8 per cent. So that whereas under the Bill as it stands Worthing, Bournemouth and other such places would get relief, because they are towns with a high proportion of old people, if the Amendment I am moving were accepted the relief would be given instead to places like Leeds, Leicester, Oldham and other of the industrial towns, because they have a higher proportion of children under the age of 16.
I do not want to impute evil motives—I never do—but I understand that the seaside resorts are very much looking forward to the benefits of this Bill; and I have had a considerable number of abusive letters—some of them very abusive—from people in seaside resorts because I am seeking to substitute the criterion of children under 16 for the criterion of people over 65. I would say to the noble Lord: do not worry about Bournemouth, Worthing, Eastbourne and so on. They are all right for the Conservative Party, and will always be loyal. If you are really thinking of the Election, think of Leeds, Leicester and Oldham, which are much more marginal, and where you stand a chance if you do justice.
However, I am not suggesting that this Bill is an electioneering. Bill, although, if I take the Prime Minister at his word, I might assume that it was, because he has said that everything the Government now do is directed to one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is the coming Election. From a purely electioneering point of view I would give the noble Lord a piece of friendly advice and ask him to accept this Amendment, because it would do him good in those quarters where he needs good, and it would not harm him in those quarters where he has it already. To be more serious, I suggest that, if the Government really want to do justice

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and help local authorities who have a considerable number of people suffering hardship, the test that I put forward, of the number of children under the age of 16, is a far more reliable and satisfactory test than that in the Bill. For that reason, I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, leave out ("over the age of sixty-five") and insert ("under the age of sixteen").—(Lord Silkin.)
LORD LINDGREN: I do not want to insinuate that there is a split on this side of the Committee, abut I am not inclined to be quite so generous towards the Government as my noble friend Lord Silkin is—perhaps because I have not been here long enough to mellow. In the Second Reading debate I described the Bill as a phoney Bill, for political purposes, because, as my noble friend has said, it does nothing to ameliorate what is an undoubted hardship, from one end of the country to the other, arising from the heavy increased rate burden placed upon ratepayers. That burden has been placed upon them, rightly or wrongly from the Government's point of view, by their own deliberate action in transferring the costs of local government services from the Treasury to the local rates—in other words, from the taxpayer to the ratepayer—to say nothing of increased interest charges due to their forcing of local authorities on to the open market to borrow money, and the added cost that comes to local authorities because of the debt burden they have to bear.
This Amendment is really a test of sincerity, so far as the Government are concerned. Are they concerned with the burden of rates on the ratepayers throughout the country, or are they concerned, for political purposes, in regard to certain of the seaside towns? The proportion of persons over 65, as my noble friend has said, is no test of the hardship or burdens falling upon local authorities or individual ratepayers. The greatest cost on a local authority's budget to-day is education. I have no quarrel with this: it is all to the good and something of which we can be proud. The local education authority has to make provision for children of school age; for those under school age
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but coming up to it, for those above the statutory age in further education—for day release (as we were discussing a few weeks ago on the Industrial Training Bill), university awards and that sort of thing.
We have had recently in this House excellent debates on the Newsom Report and the Robbins Report. The Government have indicated that under Newsom the school-leaving age is to be raised to 16 by 1970; and even between now and then certain aspects of the Newsom Report are to be adopted by local education authorities. All this will cost money. Equally, university awards are, quite rightly, a heavy charge on a local authority's finances, and if the Robbins Report is implemented, that will be a still further heavy charge on the costs of local authorities. I hope that the Minister will not say that to accept this Amendment would mean further legislation, because I submit that it could be done under the general grant—and this might perhaps be part of the Government's argument for not accepting the Amendment.
The general grant is in two parts, one the basic and the other the supplementary. Under part II of the basic there is a grant of £0·77 per child for the estimated number of children under 15, and under part II of the supplementary a grant of £0·87 for children of school age, per 1,000 of the population. A variation in either of those sections can be made without legislation, and I would submit that we can do it if there is real good will on the part of the Government to relieve the rate burden on ratepayers.
I want to point out, too, that while the general grant covers the children under 15 and those of school age, there is no provision within the general grant for further education, day release or university awards. Those costs are very considerable, and will rise if we treat the educational system of this country on a real basis of making it effective for the population. I want to point out, too, as I said in the Second Reading debate—and it is worth repeating—that the Government are talking about wage increases of 3½ to 4 per cent., and yet rates this year throughout the whole country have gone up on average 8 per cent.

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May I say as a trade unionist, and one who has had to take part in negotiations, that rates, together with other costs of living, are part of the basis of a wage demand. If the Government want to reduce the wage demands that trade unions are bound to put forward, then they ought to take some action to reduce the incidence of rates on the householder. I am going to admit straight away that this will mean an added charge, and it was intended, so far as I was concerned, to be an added charge, and a transfer of benefits from the Treasury to the ratepayer.
As the Bill stands, £6,500,000 is going to local authorities. If the Bill were implemented—and I can give only what I hope is an intelligent guess—it would cost some £37 million if we took it on the £5 and 10 per cent. of the population, as specified in the Bill. As my noble friend has said, if either the poundage or percentage needs to be altered, that is a matter for consideration. But I suggest that if it is intended to be an interim relief Bill, then it can be made a real interim relief Bill only if some method such as this, dealing with the basic and highest charge to the local authority on its rate burden, is dealt with. I hope we are not going to be told again that the Allen Committee and the Working Party are looking into the financial relationship between central and local government in the rating system generally. What is required is some relief now, and to do that I think this Amendment, or a slight variation of it, is a valid contribution to the local authorities of this country.
4.33 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: When I read this Amendment, I must say that I was a little puzzled as to what was meant. While I am certain that it has been put down in all sincerity to improve what is admittedly a not particularly convincing Bill, I feel that this is a rather expensive way of doing it, even though, as the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, fairly said, it would give more relief. But this is an interim measure, and whether one considers it a good measure or not is a matter of opinion. The number of children under the age of 16 is very large, and if it is to be calculated on that basis it would be very costly.
LORD SILKIN: Perhaps I did not make myself clear. It is my fault, and due to my incapacity to use the English language adequately. I thought I said in my introductory remarks that the percentage would have to be altered. I am not asking for more money. I was asking only that it should be distributed in a more satisfactory way on the basis of the number of children under 16, rather than on the basis of people over 65. I am not asking for more money under Clause 1.
LORD AUCKLAND: I take the noble Lord's point, and I apologise if I in any way misrepresented him. The fact is, of course, that places like Leeds, Leicester and Oldham are industrial centres. Under the 1961 Act industries are now fully rated, which should to some extent help householders, although that is not always the case. For example, at Purfleet, which is an industrial centre, the rates for householders still continue to rise, despite the large amount of industry, pulp mills, and so on, in that area. But I feel that under this interim measure it is the seaside resorts which deserve some benefit. I quarrel with the point that they are necessarily bastions of Conservatism. Particularly in local government there have been a number of radical changes recently. Eastbourne was mentioned. I know Eastbourne well, and recently the council there has taken on a somewhat different political complexion, even though the Conservatives still retain control.
There is a scheme in many of these resorts to alleviate the unemployment which often occurs out of season. I feel that the Bill, as at present drafted, may well be of advantage to these resorts who are trying to relieve unemployment. However, if it is put to the vote, I shall remain neutral, because although I do not support this measure for the reason I have given, nevertheless I do not believe that the Government's own remedy at present is the right one, because the relief, as I understand it, is going to the local authority as a whole and not to those who really need it, as I said on Second Reading. Although, as I say, I believe that the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is a genuine attempt to improve the Bill administratively, I believe there will be difficulties, and I hope that the Allen Committee will report and that the Report will be

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acted on soon so that hardship can really be discussed and action taken in a more practical manner.
4.38 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS): I appreciate very much the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, saying right at the beginning that this Amendment was not designed to ruin the Bill but to help the Government, and that he thought that as a criterion of directing payments towards the relief of hardship it was a better provision than the one taken, or partly taken, by the Government under Clause 1. Also, of course, I took his point absolutely about the question of the sum of money per head of population. He made this perfectly clear, and he need not apologise at all for his use of the English language.
Of course, the result of this Amendment would be that the areas in which the elderly, retired people were most numerous, and where the Government believe the incidence of hardship seems likely to be greatest, would get a smaller share of the grant. Areas where children were more numerous would get the larger share. I immediately dispatch this point about the money: in point of fact, if we allowed £5 on the basis of the noble Lord's Amendment, it would mean the Government's spending about five times as much as we envisage spending under the present Bill. So the figure would have to be £1 and not £5. But that is not important in the context of the general argument, in view of the noble Lord's explanation. The number of children under 16 in each rating area is not readily available but, of course, the number of children under 15 is one of the factors in the distribution of the general grant, and figures up to that age are available from all county boroughs. The three with the highest number of children per population, in descending order, are Bootle, Middlesbrough and West Hartlepool. In none of these areas does the rate payment of the average householder amount to the national average of £30 12s.
LORD LINDGREN: I am sorry to interrupt, but I do so because this use of the average is very misleading. It is true that the average, so far as an industrial town is concerned, is lower,
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but the incidence on the individual is no lower because industrial rating is included within the domestic hereditament to arrive at the average; whereas, if you have a town such as Bournemouth, where there is little industry, of course it is a straight one, but the incidence so far as the individual is concerned is just as high.
LORD HASTINGS: I should appreciate it if I were allowed to make my argument. I am perfectly capable of understanding the fallacy inherent in all averages. There are extremes, of course. There is above and below the average, otherwise you could not have an average. But an average does give an indication, at any rate, of where hardship exists in considerable proportion, and if noble Lords will bear with me for a moment, I think they will see how this operates.
I was going to say that in these three places I have mentioned it is well below the national average, and nor does the average increase in that payment since 1962–63 amount to the national average of just over £3. The noble Lord will remember that there has to be a minimum increase of £5 before any refund becomes payable, yet the Amendment would give proportionately the most grant to those areas. West Hartlepool, for instance, where the average rate payment per house is still only £21 6s. per year, would get a 7d. rate relief, equivalent to about 30s. off the rates on the average house.
The three county boroughs with the fewest children per 100 population are Blackpool, Eastbourne and Bournemouth, and in all three the average rate payment and the average increase per house are far above the national average. The average Bournemouth rate payment is nearly £47, and the increase since last year is £15. So I think these figures give an indication, if nothing more, of where the hardship lies and the numbers in which it is likely to be found.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, mentioned other cities and I have been given a few figures here which illuminate the same sort of point. In Leeds, the average rate payment in 1963–64 was £24 8s., but the average increase since 1962–63 in rates was only £1 4s. In Leicester, the figures were £32 5s. and

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£2 12s. respectively; Oldham, £20 14s. average rate payment, £2 18s. average increase; Worthing (which the noble Lord mentioned as at the other end of the scale) average rate payment is £53 2s., average increase £6 14s. So I think the same sort of picture evolves out of consideration of all those places, whether the ones I have taken or those which the noble Lord opposite has brought forward as examples. Given that the object of Clause 1 is to put proportionately more grant into the areas where householders' rate increases following revaluation have been most severe and the incidence of hardship in those increases is likely to be highest, there seems to me to be no question but that the proportion of elderly—imperfect though it is, and we have admitted that—is a better criterion than the proportion of children.
To come to another aspect of the result of the noble Lord's Amendment if it were accepted, in counties, for example, we must remember that the grant under Clause 1 is, in any case, payable to county district councils and not to county councils; and, of course, it is the county councils who bear the burden of expenditure for education. Another point is, that if we take the three places I mentioned, Bootle, Middlesbrough and West Hartlepool, all three already have about three-quarters of their expenditure on education—I think one can tie this with the Amendment because it is based on children under 16—and the other big general grant services met by general grant and rate deficiency grant, while Blackpool, Eastbourne and Bournemouth, at the other extreme, have well below half their expenditure on these services met by grant.
I would turn to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, who said that this is an interim relief Bill, but he wanted to direct his relief really towards the general ratepayer. We want to direct it towards a particular class of ratepayer who is hit by hardship arising, not out of the general incidence of rate burden, but out of the specific increase due to revaluation, and only revaluation. Therefore, if one considers that is the purpose of the Bill, I am quite sure from the figures I have given noble Lords—and I hope they will be sure, too—that Clause 1 will be more
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effective and will produce the effect we require much better if we stick to the payment based on the numbers of elderly people over 65 and do not switch to the grant based on the number of children under 16. Since this is, I think, the proven fact, and since the purpose of the Bill is, as I have said, not to deal with the general rate burden and deficiency of payments made by the Exchequer, on the one hand, towards local authority expenditure and by the rates, on the other—it has nothing to do with that but is entirely directed towards the question of hardship on a temporary basis due to revaluation—then I must say that I think it would be quite impossible for the Government, with the best will in the world, and even with gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for having put this forward as a better idea, to advise the Committee to accept this Amendment, which really would make a completely different sort of Bill, which we do not want at all, and would defeat the Bill's main object.
LORD SILKIN: I do not want to press this, but I must say that, with all the logic that the noble Lord has produced, his results were extraordinary. You can, if you are skilful enough, always manage to produce the best possible reasons for getting the most illogical result. That is what the noble Lord has done. He has demonstrated to his own satisfaction that places like Eastbourne, Worthing and Bournemouth ought to get relief from the Government, but that places such as he described in the North of England, where unemployment is high and rateable value is low, should not. In these circumstances I am unable to accept his contention. I will not go to a Division, but I think we ought to let the Amendment be negatived.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
4.50 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall be agreed to?
LORD LINDGREN: Perhaps I may say a word at this point. Before I do so, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, will not start quibbling in debates like this. Just now he said that district councils under Clause 1 get the grant, whereas county councils bear the cost of education. That was a little naughty, because he must give us some

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credit for knowing something about local government. I would ask him where the county councils get their money from. Is he not aware, being in the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, that a county council precepts on the district councils, and that it is the district councils that pay the education rate, which is still the highest part of the rate which the district council has to levy on its ratepayers?
Dealing with that point here, under Clause 1, the district councils and the county boroughs get the grant, but nowhere in the Bill is there any requirement on the local authority to use that money for any purposes other than the general rate relief. And yet the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, resisting the Amendment, criticised it because it was a general rate relief. Under the Bill a local authority can take its grant and make no grant to anybody, and the shopkeepers of Bournemouth, of Blackpool or of Eastbourne are the only persons who are going to benefit. What steps will the Government take to see that the grant made under Clause 1 is in fact used for the relief of the hard-pressed ratepayer, the ratepayer who is suffering hardship? Because, with the greatest respect, I have seen far more hardship in Middlesbrough and Bolton than I have ever seen in Bournemouth or Eastbourne.
LORD HASTINGS: The noble Lord was not here, I am bound to remind him, at the end of the Second Reading. The noble Lord has just made two Second Reading speeches during Committee stage, and the points he has made were put and answered fully when I replied on Second Reading. Briefly, although this is in the form of a general grant under Clause 1 it is designed specifically to offset the likely payments to be made by the local authorities for hardship under Clause 2; and that is really the purpose. But the grant is not tied; there is no compulsion to use it in that way, because that would he taking away from the local authorities a degree of their responsibility to their own ratepayers as to how they operate Clause 2, for which they get only half in Exchequer grant, and in some cases two-thirds, under Clause 5. That, very briefly, recapitulates the argument which I expounded at greater length at
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the end of the Second Reading. This point has been threshed out in both Houses.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

TRADE UNION (AMALGAMATIONS, ETC.) BILL
4.53 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD McCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: My Lords, I have been asked to introduce to your Lordships the Second Reading of this Private Member's Bill which went through another place almost "on the nod". It so happened that it was introduced on a very busy Private Member's Bill day, Friday, and it was reached only at 3.57 in the afternoon, which allowed only three minutes for its consideration. Such was the bustle that the Parliamentary Secretary actually talked the measure out at 4 o'clock, but by some neat rearrangement on the part of my honourable friend it was taken again the following week and passed through all its stages without further debate. I therefore think that, as it is a Bill of some complexity and some importance, something should be said in your Lordships' House about it, even if in another place it passed without much comment.
I would start my remarks by saying that the Bill, although a Private Member's Bill, has the full support of Her Majesty's Government, the British Employers' Confederation, and, I believe, of the Trades Union Congress, too; I am hoping to hear more of that from the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. Some people might say that if that formidable combination all approved of this Bill, there must be some catch in it somewhere; but I would assure your Lordships that, in this case at any rate, I do not think there is any catch at all.
The Bill endeavours to deal in a small, modest way with the present effort that is being made in many quarters to streamline our industrial organisation. The British Employers' Confederation,

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the Federation of British Industries and other employers' organisations are all working to see whether some form of merger would not be more acceptable to the modern age. This Bill endeavours to help trade unions—and the British Employers' Confederation is a trade union—to modernise themselves if they so wish. But, of course, if we wish to make easier the course of modernisation and the merger of trade unions and the like, we must see to it that the proper safeguards for the individual union member are there and that they are maintained, and I hope to show in my few remarks on this Bill that we do maintain those safeguards.
The present structure of the trade union movement I suppose owes its existence almost entirely to historical accident. Like Topsy, it has grown up. And although efforts have been made from time to time to make amalgamations and mergers when they seemed desirable, yet they were not easy. There are hybrid unions, craft and non-craft alike; there are craft unions, there are general unions and various types of what are known as white-collar unions; and although this diversity is not a bad thing in itself, it can make for overlapping and difficulties and lead to demarcation disputes and arguments. From the employers' point of view, industrial relations may be made unnecessarily complex if the employer has to negotiate with a multiplicity of unions in his one trade; and everybody, I believe—employer, trade union and the general public—deplores demarcation disputes. Yet I regret to say we have them with us. The T.U.C., as I am sure Lord Williamson will remind us, themselves acknowledge that it is necessary to take stock. I believe that in 1961 or 1962 a motion was passed through Congress to that effect. As was widely reported at the time, the T.U.C. approached Lord Blakenham, who was then the Minister of Labour, to see whether something could be done to relax the existing laws governing trade union mergers and changes of name. I believe that the Minister on that occasion welcomed the T.U.C. approach and promised to examine the proposal sympathetically.
Perhaps I might remind your Lordships that the existing law is rather trict: if two or more unions wish to
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amalgamate, each must hold a ballot in which at least 50 per cent. of its members take part, and there must then be a six to five majority in favour. It is not so much the point of the required majority to which people object, but that it is difficult to get such a high proportion of members to take part in the voting—50 per cent. for a merger or, if there is to be a transfer, 66⅔ per cent. In these days, everybody knows that it is extremely difficult to get a large number of people to vote on any important measure; indeed, from time to time we see criticisms of trade unions for not being able to get more than 10 per cent. of their members to vote on important subjects. So the reported proposal of the T.U.C. was that, provided that all members had an opportunity to vote, the law should not require that a certain proportion must vote, nor lay down how large a majority it should be. I must confess that in present-day circumstances that idea seems all right, and this Bill endeavours to follow it out. The Bill makes a simple majority of those voting sufficient to approve an amalgamation or a transfer of engagements between two trade unions. This is a considerable relaxation of the present law, and therefore, as I have said, safeguards must be added. First, the Bill seeks to ensure that members are fully informed about the effects of a merger before a vote is taken. Secondly, members will have a right of complaint to the Registrar of Friendly Societies against voting irregularities.
To come to the Bill itself, Clause 1 lays down conditions and requirements which are to govern the holding of a vote on an amalgamation or transfer. It will be seen that at least a week before the vote members are to receive a notice about the merger, and this notice must contain sufficient information about the proposed merger so that members can make a reasoned judgment on the matter. To ensure that the notice gives sufficient information it has to be approved, before it goes out, by the Registrar. Clause 2 seeks to give the union executive a fairly free hand in making arrangements for voting. Unless it did, there could easily be confusion as to whether or not any rules existed. However, if a union so desires, it can say in its rules that this provision is not to apply, and can, again,

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tie its executive to a particular procedure for the future. When a union absorbs another, it may need to adapt its rules to those of the other union for this purpose. Clause 3 gives the executive power to make the necessary changes, unless the union's rules expressly say that they are not to do so.
Clause 4 deals, as I have already indicated, with the right of complaint to the Registrar. A member has six weeks after the application to register a complaint. The Registrar is given power to decide complaints, and his decisions are final. He may refer to the High Court any matters of law. I am informed that in Scotland the Court of Session takes the place of the High Court. Clause 5 reproduces the substance of existing law which enables the property of unions which are merging to be easily transferred. The T.U.C. also thought that the law with regard to changes of name was too strict. At present two-thirds of the members' votes are needed before a registered union changes its name. Under Clause 6 we have endeavoured to make that situation a little easier, so that a registered union will be able to change its name in accordance with its rules—as indeed an unregistered union already can—so long as the new name is not the same as, or is not calculated to be muddled up with, an existing name. Clause 7 gives the Minister of Labour the necessary powers to make regulations on detailed matters.
Clause 10 deals with Northern Ireland. This is rather complicated, because the Bill does not extend to that country, apart from ensuring that the Parliament of Northern Ireland has power to enact similar legislation, if that is thought fit. But mergers between unions based in Great Britain and unions based in Northern Ireland will be possible, and here Schedule 2 will apply. What will happen is that unions based in Great Britain will go through the procedure in this Bill, and those based in Northern Ireland will follow any procedure which the Northern Ireland Government lay down.
My Lords, I repeat that this little Bill has the support of the Government—indeed, Government drafting has been widely used in its preparation. It follows the principles which were suggested by
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the T.U.C. to the Minister of Labour, and in turn referred by him to the employers for their consideration. I think I have said enough to show that the Bill is widely welcomed by all those closely connected with industry. I am quite sure that the more we can streamline our industrial organisations the better it will be for all concerned. There are many unions which can easily, and with great advantage to their members, merge. There are some unions which may wish to transfer some of their members to other unions, with equal advantage to all. I hope that this little measure may assist to that end, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord McCorquodale of Newton.)
5.8 p.m.
LORD WILLIAMSON: My Lords, first of all, I think we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, for introducing this Bill into your Lordships' House and for explaining its provisions. I think that the Bill is to be welcomed, not because by itself it is going to create amalgamations or indeed cause amalgamations, but because it will facilitate the requirements of the law in trade union amalgamations and transfers and changes of name. In these days of tremendous change, it is not surprising that there should be such great interest in trade union structure which has been haphazardly built up over the last fifty, or so in some cases one hundred, years; or that there should be interest in some reorganisation in this field, which is long overdue.
One of the obstacles which have hampered unions who were desirous of coming together and creating more efficient units—particularly those unions where there is an identity of interest—is that it has not been possible to secure the requisite number of votes in accordance with the law. This Bill eases the legal requirements, and should go a long way towards ensuring, as time goes on, a more efficient and modern trade union structure.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, that there is not any "catch" in this Bill. It is long overdue. Indeed, it is surprising and almost unbelievable that the laws govern-

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ing amalgamations of unions were passed so many years ago. One Statute dates from 1876, a time when unions were small local organisations. Because of some amalgamations and mergers which have taken place since, we now have very large national unions, some with a membership of several hundreds of thousands. Under present procedures unions wishing to merge or amalgamate must secure a vote in each union involved of at least 50 per cent. of the members, and very often these members are spread not only over a whole district but over the whole country, and in some cases even abroad.
Not only must there be not less than a 50 per cent. vote, but those voting in favour must exceed by 20 per cent. those voting against. This Bill provides for a simple majority. As matters are at present, it means, in effect, that nonvoters are counted as voting against any amalgamation; therefore a sufficient number of members who are indifferent or who may abstain can obstruct and prevent a well-thought-out amalgamation from taking place. Indifference on the part of trade union members to voting in these matters and in trade union elections generally is often subjected to severe criticism in the country. But this lack of responsibility—and lack of responsibility it is—is no worse than the indifference which is shown in our local government elections, where very often not more than 20 or 30 per cent. of the electorate take the trouble to vote.
This apathy is probably characteristic of our democratic system, but it ought not to prevent desirable changes, essential for the better and more efficient running and performance of our democratic institutions, from taking place. In the past many possible amalgamations of unions in identical fields have been prevented by the antiquated law governing these matters. The sensible amendments proposed under this Bill should be welcomed, and I am sure they will be welcomed by your Lordships' House.
The noble Lord who introduced the Bill did not make too much of a point of this, but it is the case that in many industries and in many firms the employers have to deal with such a large number of unions that this hampers the
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taking of decisions and creates a good deal of industrial unrest. I hope your Lordships will forgive me for giving a few figures. In engineering, shipbuilding and vehicle building there are 50 unions; in cotton, flax and man-made fibres, 30 unions; in other textile industries, 30 unions; in transport (outside railways), 23 unions; and in insurance, banking and finance, 23 unions. Indeed, on looking up the Chief Registrar's report for 1962 I discovered that there are 388 registered unions with a membership of 8½ million. Yet I calculate that 16 of those unions—16 out of 388—cater for 6¼ million; and the other 2¼ million are catered for by 372 unions.
Many of these unions are very small indeed; and of course there is nothing wrong with a small union as such. Many small unions are very good, and the members comprised in them are proud of their unions, proud of their membership and jealous of retaining their union's individuality. But in these days, for a trade union to play its proper part and to take its proper rôle it must be highly efficient and possess adequate financial resources to maintain professional and trained staff for research, education, negotiation and administration generally, including a legal department for the protection of its members. There is plenty of evidence that where the smaller unions have merged and made a more viable unit there has been greater efficiency and better services to the membership, with advantage all round.
In this country we have some of the most responsible and well-run unions in the world. Trade unions are an essential and vital part of the modern State, and it is important that the law governing them should not be restrictive. The shortcomings of the British trade union movement—and it is not by any means perfect—are no greater than those which democratic society accepts in other fields as the price for the maintenance of a free society. The British Trades Union Congress fully recognises the defects in its structure and organisation and displays a readiness to remedy these defects. Up till now, the law has hampered progress in this direction, and this Bill, which has received universal support outside and unanimous approval in another place. I feel sure will have the blessing and goodwill of your Lordships' House.
5.18 p.m.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT BLAKENHAM): My Lords, may I say a brief word on this Bill? The Government very much welcome the Bill. I regard it as a family affair, because, as the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, pointed out, the Trades Union Congress came to talk to me last July about the possibility of getting some legislation of this sort on to the Statute Book. I very much welcomed their approach. It coincided with my own views at the time, because all sensible, thinking people realise that the law is rather out of date, is too ponderous, and is going to make more difficult a process which in many cases is desirable. Therefore, for those reasons, I promised at the time to give the help and support I could to any means of producing a Bill of this sort. As Lord McCorquodale of Newton is my brother-in-law and as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, is an old friend of mine, I regard this occasion as a family occasion.
LORD McCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Blakenham for his remarks, and also the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, for his support of this Bill. I think I ought to explain why it is a Private Member's Bill. Government time is very difficult to come by, but an honourable friend of mine in the other place was fortunate in the ballot, and he selected this subject as his contribution to the Private Members' Bills. Thus, it has a possibility of getting on the Statute Book before Easter, and I hope that it will play its small part in the modernisation process which we have been discussing.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PROTECTION OF ANIMALS (ANAESTHETICS) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUILDINGS OF ARCHITECTURAL OR HISTORIC INTEREST
5.22 p.m.
LORD MOLSON LORD MOLSON rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Acts for the protection of buildings of special architectural or historic interest are adequate for the purpose and that they are being implemented effectively. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Question is addressed to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. It does not relate to the grants made by the Ministry of Public Buildings and Works on the advice of the Historic Buildings Council under the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, 1953. I was at one time desirous of bringing the whole matter of building preservation within one machine and under one Ministry, but I was convinced, at the time that the Bill of 1953 was being drafted, that that was probably impossible, and certainly undesirable. I understand that the matter has again been reviewed by Ministers subsequently, and they have come to the same conclusion.
Responsibility for the preservation of buildings of special architectural or historic interest rests, under Section 32 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, upon the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and under subsection (1) of that section the Minister is required to compile lists. As I understand it, when lists have been compiled under subsection (1) they become provisional, and when the provisions of subsections (2), (3) and (4) have been complied with they then become statutory. As I understand it, the general view is that decisions on proposed demolition are normally left to the local authorities. The Minister is often urged by amenity societies, and by other people interested, to intervene, but in the official report of the Ministry it is stated that he does so only in exceptional cases.
The first question that I should like to put to my noble friend is: how has this procedure of listing worked so far? How far has it proceeded? In the second place, I believe that there is a serious lag in time between the preparation of the provisional lists under subsection (1), and the time when they become statutory. I should have thought

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that that was a dangerous interval, because the owners would be put on their guard that when the whole procedure had been complied with they would not readily be able to demolish the houses, and they might seek to do so at once. So I would ask my noble friend: what is the time lag between the drawing up of provisional lists, and the time when they become statutory? As I understand it, the normal way in which listed buildings are preserved is by the refusal of the local authority to grant planning permission to redevelop. I would ask to what extent the Ministry have found that this has proved a satisfactory and adequate safeguard for buildings of special architectural or historic interest. Are these lists printed? I believe that it was originally stated that they would be printed, although a change was made under the Government of Sir Winston Churchill. I gather that the position today is that the lists are published, although they are not printed.
My Lords, I turn to Section 30 of the Act under which building preservation orders can be made either by a local planning authority or by the council of a county district. The Minister has reserve powers to make a building preservation order, if he feels that such an order should be made and the local authority has neglected to do so. I would ask my noble friend how far this general procedure has worked satisfactorily. Have an adequate number of building preservation orders been made by local authorities, and in how many cases has it been necessary for the Minister to use his reserve powers? But even when a building preservation order has been made, the powers of preservation are very limited. Although a building may not be demolished or substantially altered, there is nothing to prevent the owner from allowing it to fall into decay and to collapse. I fully understand the difficulty of compelling an owner to spend money upon a building on which he does not wish to spend money. Nevertheless, there can be real abuse if he deliberately allows such a building to fall into decay and then claims that, as it is a useless building, the preservation order should be removed. Is it, as I believe, not infrequently the case that the building preservation order is withdrawn after the owner has allowed a
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building to fall into a completely ruinous state? I should have thought that there was a case for preserving the building preservation order, in order that the owner should not obtain financial benefit from deliberately defeating the purpose of the building preservation order.
Under the 1962 Act the local authority has power to purchase a building upon which it has made a building preservation order, but in many cases that is the only positive action that can be taken to preserve the building. Is that frequently done? Perhaps my noble friend can tell us in how many cases it has happened. In 1962 Parliament passed the Local Authorities (Historic Buildings) Act, and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government subsequently issued Circular No. 68 giving guidance to the authorities about the loans and grants that could be made to the owners of buildings of historic interest and importance in order to help those owners who were unable themselves to find the money necessary to restore and preserve them. To what extent have local authorities acted in accordance with the powers provided for them by Parliament?
My Lords, I turn to the future, which I think in some respects is even more important than the past. In the debate last week, on March 4, my noble friend Lord Hastings, on behalf of the Government, held out prospects of large-scale work in the redevelopment of urban areas, and noble Lords on both sides of the House were very glad to know that the Government had these intentions. Of course, if there is going to be large-scale redevelopment in our towns, then it is extremely important that those areas which are of special beauty, interest and charm should be preserved. Indeed, that is specially referred to in the Buchanan Report. There, for the first time, as we nearly all of us agreed last week, the Buchanan Report talks about the environmental areas in which it will be a pleasure for pedestrians to walk and people to live. The Report emphasises that that can be done only if they are made into precincts, and if something is done to prevent large amounts of modern traffic from hurrying through. When we have this prospect before us—a prospect that we welcome—we do want to know what Her Majesty's Government are going to

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do to preserve these environmental areas of very special interest, beauty and charm which exist in so many of our old cities.
The Buchanan Report had a special paragraph dealing with Norwich, and pointed out that here was a very remarkable city of very great importance and that it would be possible, in accordance with its recommendations, to make provision for most traffic to by-pass the city and for there to be four environmental areas inside Norwich where, again, it would be a pleasure for people to live and to walk. I would congratulate my noble friend again on the production by his Department of Bulletins No. 1 and No. 4, dealing with this matter of environmental areas. But it really will be necessary for some guidance to be given from Whitehall. To take a case where I believe that, fortunately, at the last moment, things may yet be saved: the beautiful and interesting city of Salisbury. There, a land company called, I believe, Hammerton's, acquired some 2½ acres or more of land near the city, and had proposals for its complete redevelopment. The city council gave provisional planning approval to this scheme. Fortunately, as a result of public agitation, the county council called the matter in for their own determination, and they disapproved the plan. As a result, an extremely skilful town planning consultant was appointed, and new proposals have been made which are at any rate an immense improvement upon the original proposals and are, I believe, satisfactory.
There is a warning to the Government and to Parliament that, in the matter of these ancient cities, which are so vital a part of our national heritage, it would be quite wrong to leave these matters to be decided without any help or guidance by the local authorities. At present, there is no difference drawn between the authority of local authorities and planning authorities in areas of 19th century industrial sprawl and their authority in these priceless and irreplaceable historic cities of the past. I do beg Her Majesty's Government to realise the need for an initiative to be taken from the centre, in order to make certain that the redevelopment of these very beautiful places should not be left to the unguided discretion of the local
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authorities. I understand that in France this matter is being dealt with by quite revolutionary methods under the de Gaulle Government, and that Monsieur Malraux has been given special powers for making certain that the ancient cities which are the glory of France should not unwittingly and carelessly be destroyed and spoiled at a time when redevelopment is necessarily taking place, in order to bring them into harmony with the requirements of the 20th century.
My Lords, these are the questions which I would put to my noble friend. Some relate to what has been done in the past, but the more important part of my Question is asking for some assurance that Her Majesty's Government will take an initiative at the present time, rather on the lines adumbrated by the Buchanan Report and also by the two Bulletins which his Ministry has issued, and also for some assurance for the future.
5.36 p.m.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, I think we would all agree these are critical times for our country because its whole future appearance is going to be determined by what happens in the next few years. I think that there is an awakening, an awareness, among people—particularly young people—which I have noticed. But, of course, the danger is that this awareness may not make itself felt until too late. Those who are doing very good work are, I think, the voluntary societies. Perhaps I should declare an interest here, as I am president of a voluntary society, not a society for preserving buildings but for preserving the countryside around the Solent area. The great difficulty of these societies is that they are not official, and very often do not get information until it is too late. I should like to suggest to Her Majesty's Government that these bodies might in some cases be given some sort of official standing, which would allow or enable them to get necessary information and study the subject. They are mostly reasonable and helpful societies, and they would then be in a position at least to examine the pros and cons of any future development.
We all know that there is tremendous pressure for building and development

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to-day. There is a trend in the North to come into the South-East of England, a trend which the Government are finding very difficult to control. So this is not a simple problem at all, particularly as, when it is a question of a new development, planners and developers find it much easier to pull down and begin again than to adapt what is good and try to organise new development around the adaptation. I would submit that this country is so rich in its private buildings, its villages, bridges and churches that it would be a thousand tragedies if we were to allow them to be nibbled away little by little. That is the danger—not so much a clean sweep, as a gradual eroding of this extremely beautiful architecture of the past. Of course, there is a strong school of thought behind modern development which looks on the television set, the car and the washing machine as the ultimate satisfactions of life; but I submit that the other view is equally important. The visual sense is a very real one, and when more of our population have been educated to enjoy their leisure, they must be given the advantages and the possibilities of doing so.
To go from the more general to the particular, I think one could divide this question into three categories. One is ecclesiastical, which does not really arise on this Motion, because the ecclesiastical buildings are outside the Acts. And I must say that the Church of England have, on the whole, been very good. They have done their best to preserve. But there is tremendous pressure at the moment to acquire some of the more valuable sites of churches in our big cities, for development. These sites have gone up in value a hundredfold, and there is a tremendous temptation and pressure to relinquish the church in the city and then to build a smaller church outside in the suburbs. In some cases that might be no loss, but in others it would be a great tragedy. I am sorry that we have no representative whom one could question on the policy of the Church to resist this pressure, but I hope they will go on doing so and continue to save some of our finest architectural buildings.
However, this Motion is really concerned with private buildings and houses, some of which are extremely
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interesting and beautiful, though I am not so much thinking of what are known as the stately homes of England that charge visitors 1s., 2s. 6d., 5s., or whatever it may be. The only way these lesser buildings can be safeguarded, so far as I understand it, is by a preservation order which the noble Lord, Lord Molson, talked about. I very much agree with him on what he said. This order must be confirmed by the Minister, as I understand it. When the order is given the building can be neither demolished nor altered to such an extent as to change its character. But there is one point which I should be grateful if the noble Lord who is to reply would make clear. Section 33(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962 says that a building cannot be demolished, nor can there be any
"alteration or extension in any manner which would seriously affect its character".
What I am not quite clear about is who is to judge. Is it the Minister, the local authority or the owner? If it is the owner then it is, of course, no safeguard whatever. It does not seem quite clear to me, but perhaps the noble Lord will tell us who is the final authority.
There is one example which I can give of the sort of procedure that goes on, which I think is happening all over England to-day. A good many people, and also the London County Council, have been interested in trying to preserve Tower House, Melbury Road, on the Ilchester Estate near Holland Park. I was very interested in that because it was a well-known artists' colony which, amongst others, had Lord Leighton's house in it. Tower House, built by Burges in 1870, has a unique interior. There is no other house in England quite like it. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it is absolutely unique. The London County Council applied for a preservation order; an inquiry was held in 1961; and, in spite of the Minister's representative being in favour of an order, the Minister finally decided he would not give it. I do not know on what grounds the refusal was based. As a result, this building is gradually becoming derelict, and if it is left long enough it will, I suppose, fall into disrepair and become a complete ruin. That would be sad.
This sort of situation is a problem for the private owner of houses, and, as the

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noble Lord who initiated this Motion has clearly put, the owner very often cannot, or in some cases will not, provide the money to support the house. I would suggest this as a step to help him. Would it not be possible to be more generous with interest-free loans for him? In many cases where an owner of a house like this could have a loan of money which he could advance for repairs he might take advantage of it and do something about it. Otherwise, as the noble Lord, Lord Molson, said, the trouble is that, in spite of the preservation order, all the owner need do is to leave the house to fall down. In the course of time it becomes useless, the preservation order may be removed, and the owner can sell the site at a considerable profit and England has lost another of her assets. I would much support the idea of more advantageous loans to help the owner.
I think we are beginning to appreciate the architecture of the last century, of Victorian times; and it would be a pity if some of the best examples of that very fast diminishing number of buildings were not preserved. I would ask the noble Lord who is to answer whether he could speed up the making of the statutory lists of buildings between, say, 1837 and 1914. This has been on the stocks for a very long time, and unless something can be done too many of these buildings will disappear.
The final category that I would bring up is the most important of all. It is the buildings controlled by Her Majesty's Government. Of these, the one that obviously leaps to mind is the Foreign Office which has been the subject of great debate and controversy. Personally, I think it would be a great pity if the particular character of the building and its skyline were not preserved. I know it would be an expensive undertaking, but I should have thought that the interior could be redesigned to make it workable, still keeping the essential facades and the outlines and the shape of the skyline.
In view of the immense responsibility which the Government have of looking after some of the finest of our buildings—and I have given the noble Lord notice of this question—would not the Government, before considering the demolition or reconstruction of some important
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building over which they have control, be prepared to publish or exhibit plans and elevations of the new building which is to take its place? And will they also take notice of the criticisms which might arise, and ensure so far as possible that the highest standards of design are used? It is very difficult for experts—and even more for the public—to give the final judgment unless they know what kind of building is going to replace one due for demolition. I think it would be a great advantage if in all these big controversial cases some kind of plan and design were shown before a decision were to be taken.
I do not wish to keep the House much longer, but I should like to say that I think we are entering into a transitional stage of architecture and it might well be that the new architect, with new ideas and new material, will develop something very fine indeed. We see a possible start abroad in the case of Brasilia. Up to date, we here have not gone very far in this direction. Indeed, it is a tradition in this island for our architects to be a little behind the times, and for movements from the Continent to arrive rather late. I would urge on Her Majesty's Government and on this House that it would be disastrous to let go what is already so good unless we can be very sure that what is going to take its place will be equally beautiful.
5.49 p.m.
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, I am sure we are very grateful to the noble Lord who introduced this subject, and we look forward to the Minister's reply in due course. My only reason for speaking is that I should like to raise one or two questions which I consider relevant. I think it is generally admitted that there are serious defects in the law as it stands, either through omission or through ambiguity.
May I take, in the first place, those buildings that have been or are likely to be listed under the Town and Country Planning Acts? There is always the question of the interior. It has never been made clear whether it was intended, under the original Act of 1944, to include the interior; and, if so, to what extent. Naturally, the main timbers, the roofs and walls are included, but what of historic fireplaces, panellings and stair-

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cases? In France they have the same difficulty, which I believe they have never overcome. The noble Lord who raised this question may remember the case a few years ago of a house in the Circus, Bath, having its fine fireplaces removed when it changed hands. I myself brought this matter to the notice of the Minister, without being given any definite assurance or satisfactory reply. A few years later, the same thing happened at Ston Easton, in Somerset, again with no satisfactory conclusion. In that case, an historic overmantel and fireplace were removed; they were part of the structure and could hardly be called a tenant's fixture.
I am quite aware of the difficulties of including the interiors of historic houses as part of the structure which should not be removed or altered. I remember being told by the noble Lord's Department of a house at Croydon which was considered of great interest and which the owner could not dipose of except to a purchaser who wished to have the interior gutted. Eventually, he came to terms with the Ministry, and it was agreed that the house would be preserved on condition that he would be allowed to change the interior. A similar case happened in Queen's Square, Bath, where again a house had to lose its interior, otherwise it would probably have been demolished.
Nevertheless, I think that it would be helpful if the noble Lord who is to reply to this debate would clarify the position, if he is able to do so. Is it really necessary, as I believe his Department consider, or used to consider up till recently, that the matter can be resolved only by Case Law?
My next point concerns the preservation of buildings schedule by the Ministry of Public Building and Works (which I know are excluded from this debate), and of buildings listed under the Town and Country Planning Acts of 1944, 1947 and 1962. As has already been mentioned by two previous speakers, there has been a studied practice by some owners, who wish to be rid of their historic houses but cannot sell them, except with a vacant site, and who cannot get a demolition order, just to allow them to deteriorate. In such circumstances, the Minister cannot very
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well refuse a demolition order eventually. In this way, we have lost many valuable buildings.
The serving by the local authority of what is called a "dangerous structure" order is not entirely the answer; nor, I imagine, is a preservation order. Am I right or wrong in suggesting that if a local authority issue a preservation order, they have to buy the house itself? That used to be the case, but it may well not be so any longer. In any case, I think that the Legislature should take notice of this fact, and make some attempt to meet the difficulty; that is, how can the Government compel an owner to do what it is presumably in the public interest he should do—namely, to restore his house—if he has not the cash to do it? Or he may turn round and say that he does not agree with the Minister; that restoration is not worth doing. There must be some solution to this problem. It has been suggested, as one way out of the difficulty, that the owner should receive a grant. The same difficulty arises in France. Your Lordships may be aware of the case of the famous Abbey of Jumièges. I happened to be there at the time when the negotiations were going on. The owner had been told by the Government to repair the Abbey, which is of enormous historic interest. He said that he had no cash. They eventually came to a very satisfactory solution. The owner gave the Abbey to the Government and sold the adjacent château to the Government for use as a rest house for decayed architects—a wonderful solution, and one that saved him a lot of money.
I now come to the question, a very important one, to my mind, of preserving the amenities and precincts of historic buildings. Your Lordships will remember that in April of last year in another place a Bill was introduced by Mr. Robert Cooke to amend the law relating to the granting of permission to develop land in the vicinity of historic buildings. That Bill failed to get a hearing. Does it not follow that the site and precincts on which an historic building are found are of great importance and must be respected? To put up an unsuitable structure near a historic building should be made illegal, as it has been in France for many years.

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I had some correspondence over this matter with the Minister about a garage that was being built in the vicinity—in fact, in the enclave—of an interesting fifteenth-century chapel, which in the old days had been used as a stopping place for pilgrims on their way to Glastonbury. An inquiry was held, and the Minister upheld our objections, but a compromise was reached with the local planning authority, who allowed the owner to erect a garage on the spot, but with stone and tiles that matched the chapel. He had been going to do it with concrete blocks, which did not look at all suitable. But before long, on Monday morning, out came the washing. That did not improve the scene, though I quite like to see the washing out. After all, we are told that cleanliness is next to Godliness; so why not washing next to the chapel? However, I do not think that is a good argument. Of course, the real answer should have been not to allow any structure in the precincts at all, even though, as in this case, the surrounding land did not belong to the Church. Whoever made over the chapel to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners did not make over the land surrounding it, and that is what he should have done.
Your Lordships may remember that at the time of the introduction of Mr. Cooke's Bill, the Minister of Housing and Local Government gave an undertaking to issue a circular to planning authorities, arising out of this Bill. That circular, No. 51/63, duly appeared on August 7 last. One can only hope that planning authorities will act on it far more than they have in the past. I think that interference on the part of the Ministry might be quite a good stimulus.
I now come to gardens of outstanding interest. Your Lordships may wonder why I introduce this subject. It is because gardens have not been introduced and I feel that it is time they were. Many of these gardens, as your Lordships know, are safely in the joint hands of the National Trust and the Royal Horticultural Society, but there are many which are not and, with the incidence of death duties, may well be lost to the nation as well as to their owners. We have a unique climate in Devon and Cornwall, where practically any temperate plant can grow in what the catalogue compilers usually call
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"favoured districts". It would be a thousand pities if, through the lack of any far-reaching national preservation measures, some of the best of these gardens failed to survive. I particularly draw the noble Lord's attention to this question, because it is something about which we should like to know more.
Next, I come to a matter where I feel that a grave blunder has been made, and I can only hope that it is not too late to repair the damage. I refer to the case of Westbury Court, in Gloucestershire, a charming water-garden with pavilion, dating from about 1690, and the only remaining garden in England conceived in the Dutch manner of that time, a fashion introduced no doubt by our Dutch Monarch. This property changed hands about four years ago and the new owner obtained planning permission to build a number of houses on it, in spite of the fact that the water table was only a few inches below the surface. It seems a strange idea to give planning permission for such a scheme. I am glad to say that recently a further application to renew planning permission was refused.
The gardens consist of rectangular stone-faced canals, with a remarkable pavilion at the far end, facing a brick wall with gazebo and various ornaments and an ornamental grille. The two buildings I have mentioned are listed under the Town and Country Planning Acts. Attached to the pavilion was an ugly Victorian house which the present owner demolished, pulling down at the same time one side of the pavilion and leaving it in a parlous state. The fine gazebo has fallen in, and the gardens look dilapidated. But it is not too late to save them, and I understand that real efforts are now being made to do this and to rehabilitate the canals and listed buildings.
At the moment, considerable interest is being awakened in the historic tie between Holland and England. An exhibition, of which your Lordships no doubt are aware, known as "The Orange and the Rose", is to take place next autumn, under the auspices of the Arts Council. I suggest that it would be an opportunity to show our enlightenment by restoring these historic gardens at Westbury Court to their original state. My Lords, I will end on that note, and

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trust that the debate will at any rate have allowed some of us to air our grievances.
6.2 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, this is the second debate in less than a week raising matters on which the beauty and indeed the reputation of this country may largely depend. The Question of my noble friend Lord Molson deals with action under the Town and Country Planning Acts. In fact, those Acts are now included in the consolidated Act of 1962, which therefore is the only one that we need consider in this connection. The relevant provisions of this Act, as has been mentioned by noble Lords who have already spoken, really fall into two parts. They are Sections 30 and 31, which deal with building preservation orders, and Sections 32 and 33, which deal with listed buildings—the statutory list of buildings of special architectural or historic interest which have to be compiled. This is the chief requirement imposed on their owner: that he must give to the local planning authority two months' notice of work of demolition, alteration or extension. The Act also contains Sections 52 to 55 dealing with enforcement, Section 69 dealing with compulsory acquisition and Section 71 dealing with acquisition by agreement.
Of these various provisions, the ones that particularly interest me are those for listed buildings. In fact, I can claim in part to be the inventor of that part of the law, because some twenty years ago, with some devoted civil servants in the then Ministry of Town and Country Planning, we devised Section 42 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, which was the first Statute providing for these lists of buildings. That provision, Section 42 of the 1944 Act, with improvements, constitutes the present law about listed buildings. If my noble friend, when he comes to reply, can say that those provisions have been extremely useful, nobody will be more delighted than I.
Since some amenity societies have from time to time complained that this listing of buildings gives very little protection, let me say that that was always known. If noble Lords like to refer to the debates of October and November, 1944, in the House of
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Commons, they will find that we were able to carry, without too much difficulty, this provision for listed buildings (we hoped the list would be capable of being made with reasonable speed, and, be it noticed, without any consultation of the owner and without the owner having any right to object) precisely because it conferred no disadvantage of any sort on the owner, apart from the small delay which I have mentioned. The advantage, from the point of view of the preservation of our heritage of good architecture, was this: that at least it provided a pause in the destruction or demolition of a good building during which the planning authority or the Minister might be able to make a building preservation order. It was the building preservation order, and that alone, which provided actual security against demolition.
In dealing with these lists and this whole subject, the Minister is now advised by an Advisory Committee of great distinction and knowledge, sitting under the chairmanship of my friend Sir William Holford, and meeting regularly. How has this machinery worked? We look forward to hearing what the Minister is going to say. My own knowledge is derived from three main sources. The first is from using my eyes and seeing what is happening in towns and villages, and in the capital itself, to buildings of great value. Secondly, from the year 1943 until this year I have been continuously a member of the National Buildings Record, with the exception of the years from 1951 to 1955, when, since I was in office as Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, I severed my connection with that body. For the last few years I have served as its Vice-Chairman and, since the death of Sir James Mann in 1962, as its Chairman.
I am glad to say that a colleague on that body is the noble Lord who is to speak next, and I think he will bear me out when I say that the work we did over the years in securing photographic records and making measured drawings of important buildings was very good, so far as it went. But those who study the annual reports year by year will find nearly always on the outside the picture of some building of great value which, though we recorded it by photographs and permanently kept measured

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drawings, has gone; that part of our historic heritage has in fact been lost. That body, the National Buildings Records, has now been taken over under the new policy by the Royal Commission on Historical Monuments.
My third source of information and knowledge is based on membership of and serving on the council or executive committee of such bodies as the National Trust, the Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings, the Georgian Group, and other societies. That, perhaps, gives one considerable experience, for this reason: that it is to those societies and to the enlightened local authorities that we must look for the initiation of the making of building preservation orders. Using those three sources of knowledge, I can only give my impression of how these provisions have worked in practice. Let me say at once that, whatever happened in the past, I think the machinery is now being fairly successful in preventing, or, at least, making unlikely, the destruction of buildings of the highest grade. To that extent the machinery is working, and working well. My impression is equally definite that it is being far less successful in protecting valuable buildings of the second grade, however important their preservation may be in securing the survival of some of the greatest beauties in our historic towns and villages, and even in the capital itself. I remember a phrase which I quoted long ago in another place, but I think is not inappropriate to describe some of these market towns, villages and historic cities, but particularly the villages and the smaller towns. Gilbert Chesterton called them "the Crown Jewels of England".
I do not think that this machinery has been or is being very successful in securing the survival of some of these second-grade buildings. Further, it seems to me, it is being even less effective sometimes in securing the survival of valuable groups of buildings, which are as important as any individual building that there is. What has been the Minister's attitude to the grade 2 building? I think it is not unfair to say that this attitude has been that the grade 2 buildings are, in effect, the primary responsibility of the local authority. That will not save a great many of these buildings in those cases where the local authority attaches no value whatsoever to these matters.
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But there is another difficulty. The Minister, having said that these grade 2 buildings are the responsibility of the local authority, does not always back up that local authority when it is wise enough to make a building preservation order. To take first the attitude, "This is a matter for the local authority", but, when the local authority acts, then not to back up that local authority, endangers our heritage. Let me say at once that the Minister, whose personal concern for these matters I do not doubt for one moment, often does take the right action. Of course, as a Londoner I am perhaps more familiar with the work of the L.C.C. than with the work of other local authorities, but I think the London County Council has made building preservation orders, which have been confirmed by the Minister, on 34 buildings and 24 groups of buildings. The noble Lord who is to follow me will speak with greater authority on this part of my speech. But I am not saying for one moment that good work is not being done. In a matter of this importance, I think I shall be serving the interests of this House if I give some examples of cases where I do not think it is working satisfactorily.
I mentioned groups of buildings. Think of the importance of that in such a town as Stamford. There are there 320 listed buildings, but there are innumerable others, seemly and neighbourly, that form part of important groups. If we preserve nothing that is not in itself first-rate, we shall lose a priceless part of such a gem as Stamford. I could say the same of York, Salisbury, Norwich and, indeed, of many other places. I remember, 20 years ago in the House of Commons, giving the example of the High Street of Lewes, in Sussex. But the examples that will occur to noble Lords are innumerable.
The point I want to impress upon the House is this. We shall lose something that is priceless if we preserve nothing that is not in the top class. My noble friend Lord Molson, quite rightly, drew attention to the bad results that could follow if a building preservation order were refused on the ground that so much damage had already been done, or that the house was coming into a state of disrepair. I wonder whether I might quote one example where, I am afraid, I do not know the house myself, though

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I have a photograph. It is the case of Great Clayne Farm House, on which the Gravesend Corporation desired the Minister to confirm a building preservation order. It was precisely that type of smaller, beautiful, 18th-century house which, when put in a proper state of repair, would be considered a highly desirable place in which to live.
The matter to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is what in fact happened. This was a case in which the house had been empty since 1960; the owner had done little to prevent deterioration, and was objecting to a building preservation order that would prevent the demolition of the property. The value of the house was not denied by the inspector or by the Minister. But the building preservation order was not confirmed because the repairs would have been very expensive, though they certainly would not have been so expensive that there would not have been a purchaser, had they been made. Indeed, perhaps I may just read one paragraph of what the Minister said in his letter giving the decision:
"The Minister sympathises with the council's reasons for wishing to retain the building and he regrets that it has been allowed to get into its present bad condition. He has concluded, however, that he would not be justified having regard to the amount required to repair and modernise the building in attempting to insist upon its preservation. Accordingly he has decided to accept his Inspector's recommendation not to confirm the preservation order. The Minister hopes, nevertheless, that before the owner reaches a final decision on the question of the demolition of this building she will re-consider the possibility of selling it to a purchaser who would be prepared to restore it for further use."
That is what the Minister wants, and that is what, in fact, would have happened if the Minister had confirmed the building preservation order. But I fear now that the owner will greatly prefer to demolish the building.
In conclusion, my Lords, I turn to the last case, which concerns a place in London, known already, I expect, to many noble Lords; but any of them can go and look at it to-morrow before worse has happened to it. I am referring to Ely Place, in Holborn. By a piece of irony it is actually illustrated on page 21 of Professor Buchanan's Traffic in Towns. He illustrates it in
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order, quite clearly, to show something valuable which is cluttered up with standing cars. The legend underneath the illustration is:
"… the crowding out of every available square yard of space with vehicles …"
But Professor Buchanan would not have chosen that illustration had not the houses been rather good. It is an oasis of architectural decency and good manners, and of the greatest interest and value to London. It is found as a delightful surprise in the place where it is.
My Lords, I do not know what other noble Lords will think, but my view is fairly clear. If this were in Paris or Rome, it would, quite certainly be preserved. Let me say at once that, of course, a great deal of damage has been done to many of these houses. In one there may be an insertion of an inappropriate window; many glazing bars have been removed; and other mistaken alterations have been made. But none of this damage is irreparable; indeed, some of it was being remedied gradually by the L.C.C. as opportunity arose. If I may give an example, the proper fenestration of No. 27 was to be reinstated when the house was altered, and this was the result of a condition imposed by the L.C.C. when planning permission was given for some alterations to the house. The Georgian Group were strongly in favour of preservation and one of their best-known experts gave evidence. So was the Society for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings. The London Society is very much shocked by the fact that the Minister has refused to confirm the building preservation order, as I have reason to know, since I have recently become President of that body in succession to my noble friend the late Lord Esher who, if he were alive, would so greatly have enriched this debate.
The L.C.C., who have possibly the greatest experience of all local authorities in applying for building preservation orders of this kind, know the law and the practice very well. They were both shocked and highly surprised by the Minister's decision. The architecture of these 18th century terraces, the character of the enclosure and the historic interest of the site all make preservation desirable. The Minister, I think, takes

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the view that under the terms of Section 30 of the Act the architectural interest must be of a special nature. Yet surely this architectural interest was of a special nature, because Ely Place is obviously outstanding as a survival of architectural good grace and manners in this part of our capital. But the letter giving the decision of the Minister had an alarming and puzzling phrase in it. Perhaps I might read the sentence:
"It was essential, however, under the terms of Section 30 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, that for the preservation of a building to be warranted its degree of architectural interest should be of a 'special' nature. If the buildings in the order were of special architectural interest, which was doubtful, he still found it impossible to recommend that their preservation was justified."
My Lords, all I can say is that I am as puzzled as the L.C.C. I am puzzled by the decision that these terraces were not considered special; and I am equally puzzled by the statement I have just quoted, that, even if the Minister had come to the other conclusion that they were special, he still would not have confirmed the building preservation order.
My Lords, if I may sum up, it is bad enough if all grade 2 buildings are to be left to the tender mercy of local authorities, some of whom take little or no interest in saving them. I know some who think nothing, for instance, of pulling down a priceless grade 2 building in order to provide for freer access to traffic into some ancient market place from which public policy would require that more traffic should be excluded. In other words, they would destroy the building to facilitate precisely the sort of traffic that Professor Buchanan has said ought to be avoided. It is bad enough, therefore, if the preservation of all these buildings is to be left to the tender mercies of local authorities, some of whom, but not all, are foolish or indifferent to our architectural heritage. But matters seem to be even worse. Even when a local authority is enlightened enough to list a building or group of buildings, and make a preservation order, the Minister refuses to confirm the order merely because some of the individual buildings are not sufficiently exceptional to justify, in his view, the word "special". My Lords, like others, I look forward to
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hearing what the Minister has to say, but my experience and my observation of what has happened prevent my viewing this matter with any complacency.
6.30 p.m.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I find myself in complete agreement with all the previous speakers, and, indeed, coming rather late in the debate, there seems to me to be comparatively little that I can add, particularly after the admirable speech we have just listened to from the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, with whom I share some experiences in this particular field. We have separated recently, and I have now for some years been chairman of the Historic Buildings Sub-committee of the Town Planning Committee of the London County Council. It is therefore with the deepest regret that I confirm the impression the noble Lord had, from the Reports of the National Buildings Record, of what was, in fact, happening; and now I, alas! have exactly the same experience almost every day of the week over at County Hall.
I was very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Molson, and the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, devoted so much, in fact the greater part, of their speeches to dealing either with the provincial city or with groups of buildings in London. Like them—and particularly like the noble Lord, Lord Conesford—I find myself unable to be quite sure what the Minister's policy is. Originally, it is perfectly true, this procedure was supposed to apply only to buildings of special architectural importance. We were then given to understand that the Minister would consider the listing and giving of building preservation orders in the case of buildings which, though in themselves not of immense importance, were none the less, as examples of town planning, or of good relationship between buildings, of immense importance—more important perhaps, in some ways, than a solitary building even of the best quality. These agglomerations of buildings are the backbone of our lives in a way which the bigger, more important buildings perhaps are not, and therefore it is with the deepest regret that we have had the experience that the Minister has not backed us up, has not shown himself willing even to do additional listing which we have wished to see done for this purpose.

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The noble Lord said, too, that he understood that it was the Minister's policy that grade 2 buildings should be the responsibility of the local planning authority. First of all, I would say that in fact there is no real line of demarcation between grade 1 and grade 2 buildings. You will find buildings whose charm and importance one finds it very hard to recognise in the grade 1 or statutory list. You will find buildings—or sometimes, alas! not find them even there—but you may find buildings of first-class quality on the supplementary list. Appearance on this list entails, of course, slightly different procedures, but in fact, as the noble Lord said, it means only a stay of execution which enables the local planning authority and the Minister to decide whether these buildings are to be preserved.
There are, I suggest, two factors which inevitably influence planning authorities when considering the imposition of a building preservation order. I apologise to Her Majesty's Government, since I have spoken on this matter before, and they did last year introduce a Bill which dealt with the so-called Third Schedule; that was the Third Schedule to the Act of 1947, under which any developer was entitled to rebuild his house as often as he might wish, or as seemed to him necessary or desirable, on condition that he did not add thereto more than 10 per cent. of its cubic capacity. This had the most disabling results, though the position has been somewhat improved by the Act of 1963, in which it is said that the increase must be only one of total floor area. This is a help but it is by no means a total victory. In areas where value of land and building are high, the compensation which falls to be paid remains so great that it is only with the greatest hesitation that a planning authority can face up to it.
Another factor which seems to me likely to influence the Minister is the case of the building which comes within the purview of what is called the Part VI claim. Under Part VI of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, Sections 58 to 68, any owner of land had a right to register a claim, against a notional sum of £300 million which was administered, and is administered, by the Central Land Board, for loss of development
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rights, though such claims had to be made by the appointed day and need not be—and in many cases were not—made at all. But where owners are prevented from developing their property they have a claim, which they should agree with the Central Land Board, who calculate the value of the land as for development on the appointed day.
This has resulted in some cases in which the Minister has upheld the building preservation order, and I should point out that in these cases the building preservation order is extremely important to the developer, because it is about the only, and certainly the easiest, form of evidence of the fact that he is losing development value, without which of course he can make no claim. The procedure then becomes one under which the intending developer or applicant for permission to demolish and develop provokes the local authority to put a building preservation order on his land, and that is evidence of loss of development value and he can then claim. The Minister has on various occasions supported such building preservation orders, but in others he has refused to do so, and it has seemed quite possible that he has been influenced in this matter by the fact that in his view the claims made were excessively large. None the less, the buildings were lost.
There is a curious anomaly in the Act of 1962. Section 33(1) requires an applicant for permission to demolish to give two months' notice to the planning authority, but in fact this requirement is not limited to any particular person. It is not even, apparently, covered by Section 16 of the Act, which lays down as a requirement production of a certificate of ownership or consent of the owner. Apparently anybody can apply, on giving two months' notice, for permission to demolish any listed building. There is no limit to the time during which that application runs. If the two months elapse and the planning authority does not resist the application, it becomes operative. Surely this has led to the peculiar position in which I, or any of your Lordships, can apply for permission to demolish all the listed buildings in London; and after two months, if the local authority has not put building preservation orders upon all of them, they will to all intents and purposes be unlisted buildings. I draw

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the Government's attention to this rather peculiar matter, because although the suggestion is perhaps a little exaggerated, it is, I think, legally what would happen.
I do not wish to keep your Lordships longer. I feel that something has to be done to preserve our towns and buildings all over the country. As other noble Lords have said, they are part of our heritage. It may be that it is a heritage for which we shall have to pay. I do not believe that such payment should be excessive. It seems to me that most of these extravagant values of lands and buildings are what one might term a social augmentation of price and of value, and if reasonable compensation were paid I do not see that owners would have any justification for feeling that they had been badly done by. The problem is a difficult one, but it is one which I am convinced will repay dividends—and I am not talking about tourist traffic. It will repay dividends by preserving for us and for our children the amenities, the beauty and the interest of our country and of theirs.
6.42 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I should like for a few moments to support the plea of my noble friend Lord Methuen on behalf of the interiors of listed buildings, and to raise the question whether local authorities are as interested in interiors as they are in exteriors. I think they certainly should be if they read the reports of the Historic Buildings Council, whose latest report is full of details about the restoration of interiors. But one experience of mine would lead me, if I were a Scotsman, to say, "I ha'e ma doots".
I have the good fortune to occupy a listed building. It is, I think, in its small way one of the stately homes of England. It is a stone built house of 1720 or thereabouts. One day I received from my local authority a statutory notice under Section 16 of the Housing Act, 1961, which deals with the admirable subject of safe means of escape from fire. This excellent objective, however, was in the opinion of the local authority to be achieved by a means which, from any artistic standpoint, was quite deplorable. I was required to erect a three-sided structure of wire-glass to enclose the foot of the staircase,
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which would have quite spoiled the hallway of the house with its two period fireplaces. Indeed, this hideous structure would have cut into and seriously marred what I think is the most admired feature of the interior of the house—an ornate, coloured stucco ceiling. Fortunately, I was able to put forward an alternative suggestion, which I am glad to say the local authority at once accepted, and they withdrew their really quite monstrous requirement.
The reason why I mention this is that, if my experience is a typical one, I am seriously concerned about it because not everybody is prepared to do battle with his local authority in the way that I showed that I was prepared to do. The statutory notice was served upon me without any prior consultation at all. It did not even have a covering letter accompanying it. It arrived by itself in a registered envelope—a cold document, starting, in capital letters "TAKE NOTICE …". One of the advantages of being a lawyer is that documents of this kind perhaps strike less terror into one than they do into some other people. It arrived on the day that I was setting out for my summer holiday. I do not say that there is anything sinister in this; it just so happened. But it gave me only six weeks in which to carry out the required work which, had it ever needed to be carried out, would have been difficult for me to arrange in that period.
I do not believe that the local authority considered the artistic aspect of what they proposed at all until I raised it with them, notwithstanding that this is a listed building under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947. I simply do not think that owners ought to be treated in this way. As I have said, some may be, for one reason or another, timid about doing battle with a local authority. Others, I suppose, may be old and weary and will do what is required of them in order to be left in peace as soon as they possibly can be. Again, others may be unimaginative in thinking up alternative schemes less disfiguring than the scheme of their local authority. Yet another class of owner, I suppose one must confess, may be unappreciative of the artistic surroundings in which he lives and will allow ill-considered disfigurement to take place.

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I should like to think that in every other case except the one I have mentioned the local authorities most carefully consider the artistic aspect of the building; that they make friendly approaches to the owner who is their ratepayer; that they consult him, and do not resort to the statutory notice procedure except as a last resort in the case of an owner whom they consider to be obstinate and unco-operative in the extreme. I hope that the Minister in replying to this debate can give an assurance that in 99 cases out of 100 local authorities do act in this latter manner; and if by waving his magic wand, or in some other way, he can ensure that those 99 cases become 100 out of 100, in that respect alone this debate will have been worth while.
6.50 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, it must be a long time since an Unstarred Question evoked such enormous interest among so many noble Lords, and I know that were it not for another event taking place now in another part of this building there would be present a great many noble Lords who were here at the beginning of this discussion. I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Molson for introducing this Question and for the meticulous way in which he dealt with it. I will do my best to answer very nearly all the questions which fell rather rapidly, one after the other, from his lips. During the course of my speech I shall succeed at least in answering all his questions, even though not all my answers may prove to be thoroughly satisfactory; and I will do my best to pick up points made by other noble Lords.
Although the procedure is well known to noble Lords who have a special interest in this matter, I think it may be just as well if I were to run through and describe very briefly the relevant provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, at any rate for the benefit of those noble Lords who are not quite so familiar with them. Section 32 requires the Minister of Housing and Local Government to compile lists of buildings of special architectural or historic interest for the guidance of local planning authorities. Owners and occupiers have to be notified when their properties are listed and the appropriate
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entry has to be made in the Register of Local Land Charges. Provision for the compilation of such lists was, of course, first made in the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944.
My noble friend Lord Molson asked whether these lists were published. They are not printed and available to the public in that sense, but these lists are of course registered as land charges. Any member of the public can inspect the lists at council offices, and indeed will be sent one on request if interested in this matter.
Section 33 requires any person who proposes to demolish, alter or extend a listed building in any manner which would seriously affect its character to give at least two months' notice to the local planning authority. The noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, asked who decided what was meant by "seriously affecting the character of a building". Of course, it is the owner or the person who wishes to undertake works in the first place, but he is under the obligation to give the two months' notice. If he should chance his arm and not give notice, he could thereby commit an offence for which he can be fined £100. He can also be made to restore the building to its original condition, assuming it is not such a major operation as to be impossible. There is not a great deal of risk that the owner might go ahead without giving the statutory notice of two months. Copies of the notice must be sent by the local planning authority to the Minister and, where appropriate, to the district council concerned—that is to say, where there is one. In a county borough it is a different matter.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, to interrupt the noble Lord for one moment, may I ask him who is the ultimate authority if the owner says he has altered the building but has not altered its character? Who decides who is right, the local authority or the owner?
LORD HASTINGS: The local authority, because it may become a question of planning permission and appeal. These arrangements which I have just outlined ensure that the preservation of each listed building will be considered when any threat to it arises.

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Before going further, my Lords, I should like to pay tribute to the invaluable help successive Ministers have received from the Advisory Committee on Buildings of Architectural or Historic Interest. This Committee, whose Chairman is now Sir William Holford, is composed of eminent architects, antiquaries and historians. It has been meeting at frequent intervals since 1945 to give authoritative guidance on the selection of buildings for listing and upon the problems of preservation.
The basis of listing laid down by the Advisory Committee in 1945 is that all pre-Georgian buildings which survive in something like their original form are included. By far the larger number of Georgian buildings are also included, and the lists embrace even the ordinary small houses of that period where they form significant groups. The choice is more selective, however, when we come to the Victorian and Edwardian eras. Here the aim is to select buildings of definite quality and character, paying special attention to the main works of the principal architects. However, even here the standards listed were in fact revised in 1960 to take account of the increased appreciation of Victorian architecture to which the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon referred. As a result, all those areas rich in Victorian buildings of good quality have been, and are being, re-surveyed in order to repair the omission of buildings of this period from the original lists.
It should not be thought, my Lords, that the approach to listing is a purely academic one, resting on nothing more than strictly individual merit building by building. On the contrary, the visual qualities of buildings are recognised as of great importance. Full account is taken not only of the intrinsic merits of individual buildings, but also of any value they may derive from their setting—where, for example, a particular building is important as part of a larger composition.
This point has been laboured by several speakers, especially my noble friend Lord Conesford. It is a point in which I have taken a great personal interest recently and into which I have carried out some investigations. I was very interested to find out, and would remind your Lordships, that the
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Minister's view of the legal validity of this group value in assessing the merits of a building was recently upheld by the Court of Appeal in a case concerning a preservation order for two buildings in St. James's Square. It is now quite clear that, whatever may have happened in the past, the Ministry is giving this question of group value very great attention indeed.
In connection with this aspect of drawing up lists, it may interest your Lordships to know that some ancient towns—for example, Winchester, Canterbury and Chichester—have already been resurveyed to give greater weight to buildings which have group value but only moderate intrinsic merit. This usually involves upgrading from the supplementary to the statutory list—in other words, from Grade III to Grade II. In addition, the Advisory Committee on Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest are considering the problem of the preservation of the character of historic areas which were specially mentioned by my noble friend Lord Molson. They are making pilot studies of several ancient towns to test out the idea of defining areas within which special standards should be applied. That, again, is a considerable advance.
These lists are made by surveying literally every highway and byway in the country. This has proved an immense task and it has taken a long time, but the work is now nearing completion. Out of the 1,474 local authority areas in England and Wales, 1,403 have been surveyed; the others are generally remote with few buildings of importance in them. Provisional lists have been issued to local authorities for 1,293 areas, and statutory lists have been completed in 1,090, including all the county boroughs, nearly all the boroughs, and most of the urban districts. There is, unfortunately, a delay (about which we have heard this evening) between provisional and statutory listing, because of the very large amount of clerical work involved in serving notices, in correspondence, and in compiling and publishing the final lists. Nevertheless, there are now about 85,000 buildings on the statutory lists and 93,000 on supplementary Grade III lists. The latter, however, have no legal effect. The

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Grade I and Grade II lists are statutory lists. Of course, it should be realised that the provisional lists, which are the first stage in compiling statutory lists, are themselves of very great value since they put the necessary information immediately into the hands of the authorities responsible for the control of development before they receive the statutory lists.
As a result of these processes, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government receives copies of all notices of intention to demolish or alter statutorily listed buildings. Local planning authorities usually consult the Ministry, also, about applications for planning permission for development which would directly affect a grade I or grade II building, even when it is only provisionally listed. Hence the value of the provisional list to which I have just referred. I hope that this has set the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Molson, somewhat at rest. The more important cases are referred by the Ministry to the Advisory Committee, and the National Preservation Societies are also notified of proposed demolitions so that they can make representations to the local planning authority and offer their help when appropriate. The Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings, in particular, often provides valuable technical advice.
The noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, opposite asked whether these voluntary societies could be given greater recognition. As I said, the national societies are informed. It is virtually impossible to write to all of the local societies, but many of them have arrangements direct with local planning authorities to be kept in touch with this question. They can also, of course, inspect the register of planning applications if they wish to do so.
At this point I think I might turn to the question of interiors, which was dwelt on very properly at considerable length by the two Liberal noble Lords opposite. I am very pleased to be able to tell them that the interiors play a very important part when listing buildings, and some buildings are in fact listed for their interiors. Certainly when it was a question of listing the building in which the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, lives, the
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interior was taken into consideration He is therefore quite correct to say that local authorities should pay particular attention to interiors. I might remind noble Lords, who may have read this in the papers, that quite recently a preservation order was confirmed on Scarisbrook Hall in Lancashire which has a most remarkable interior. Having sold the building, the developer wished to remove some panelling and pictures encased in the panelling, together with some statues, but was prevented from doing any of that on the basis that this is an essential part of the house and should be preserved as such.
Therefore local authorities should certainly take into account the value of the interior and, if any alteration is involved, they should certainly be very careful as to what is done so as not to affect the character of the building. I am not quite sure whether the noble Lord was himself carrying out some form of conversion or alteration. In that case, of course, the local planning authority have a right to go into the question in respect of what works are going to be carried out under the Act. But, of course, I am sure I must be right in saying that no local authority can come to an owner who is not proposing to do anything to his statutorily listed house, and say, "I do not like your staircase. Put a bit of glass round it in case it catches fire". That would only arise, I think, in the case of any works being proposed or being undertaken.
At the same time the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, brought up the question of Tower House. I happen to know that area very well myself, and it is an interesting matter. The Minister decided not to confirm the preservation order, it is true, but he did at the same time see that some of the buildings in the area of Melbury Road, including Tower House, were added to the statutory list, so that advance notice of demolition or alteration would have to be given. I understand that no such notice has up to this moment been given. Of course, if Tower House is vacant and neglected, which in fact I happen to know it is, a preservation order would not by itself help, unless the local planning authority were prepared to acquire it. I quite realise it may be argued that a building preservation order will assist or encourage

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somebody to maintain it—that is a moot point—but the local planning authority have powers, of course, to do something about it if they feel they would care to afford the expenditure involved.
Another matter with which I might conveniently deal at this moment is the noble Earl's other point about Crown buildings. They come outside the Act but, of course, the practice is to consult with the Ministry and with the local authorities interested if any alteration or demolition is proposed. In point of fact, this is a matter for my right honourable friend, the Minister for Public Buildings and Works, and not my Ministry. But I will certainly refer the noble Earl's remarks to him, particularly the suggestions of the noble Earl in respect of giving the public an opportunity to see a model or proposals of the reconstruction of Crown buildings. I am sure he will give the matter his careful attention.
The other important statutory provision of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, is to be found in Section 30. This enables local authorities, including both county councils and district councils, to make orders for the preservation of buildings of special architectural or historic interest. These preservation orders are not effective unless confirmed by the Minister, and he must consider any objections from interested parties before deciding whether or not to confirm them. The effect of an order, when confirmed, is to prohibit the demolition or alteration of the building without the consent of the authority. The Minister may indeed make a preservation order himself after giving notice of his proposal and considering any objections. But this is in the nature of a reserve power and, in answer to my noble friend's question, it is used on average twice a year—sparingly, in other words.
I have no doubt that it will interest your Lordships to know that 1,148 buildings are now covered by preservation orders, and that orders covering about another 100 are at present being considered by the Minister. However, I should like to emphasise that these figures give no real indication of the value of the powers of protection which I have been outlining. Apart from actual building preservation orders, I think there can be little doubt that the larger part of preserving our architectural and historic
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heritage is achieved by the educational and deterrent effect of listing, as well as by the refusal of planning permission. This question of planning permission and refusals is, so far as we can see, working quite well. We do not know, of course, of all refusals but we understand they are usually effective. It is only if the owner or proposing developer refuses to accept this decision of the local planing authority and makes an appeal that the matter would come to the Minister. In such cases the local planning authority may well have in the meanwhile applied for a building preservation order, and joint inquiries are quite often held into a planning appeal and an objection to a preservation order at one and the same time. I think this system really works pretty well.
It was, I think, in connection with the planning permissions that the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, was very much alarmed at the possibility of other people being able to apply for permission to demolish a building which they did not even own. Of course, this possibility is not confined to building preservation orders or to the preservation of historic and architectural buildings. It is part of the general planning procedure. Any developer can make such an application—and I believe often does—seeking to get permission for development before trying to buy the property. But, of course, the applicant cannot force the owner to sell if he does not want to do so. I think that is the real point. But the point the noble Earl raised is, in fact, appreciated, and I think it is one which can be borne in mind if and when any further legislation is being considered. I agree that it does seem rather a peculiar possibility.
My Lords, the sort of action that local authorities can take, to which I have been referring, is sometimes reinforced by the offer of grants by the Minister of Public Building and Works under the Historic Buildings Act, 1953, which falls rather outside the scope of the Question before us, or by grants or loans by the local authorities themselves under the Local Authorities (Historic Buildings) Act, 1962. The circular of December of that year sent out by my right honourable friend followed up the passing of that Act, and I commend it to your Lordships' attention. I think that in that Act, and

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certainly in that circular, the question of gardens is referred to, and local authorities can make loans and grants for the maintenance of gardens attached to buildings for which they are willing to make such loans or grants.
LORD METHUEN: Even for gardens not attached to buildings?
LORD HASTINGS: That is a point on which I am not entirely clear. I understand that it is a matter which comes within the concern of the Minister of Public Building and Works, and that he has agreed to examine that particular problem.
Apart from the encouragement and good advice that that circular gives to local authorities, it goes at least some way towards filling the gap which we all know exists as a result of inability to enforce the proper maintenance of buildings which have been placed on a statutory list. I would say to those who believe that powers should be taken to compel the proper maintenance and repair of such buildings that here we should be very careful, because we should be treading on dangerous ground. Quite apart from the practical difficulties, a compulsory obligation to maintain at standards laid down by Statute might well deter people from accepting, or from continuing to accept, as the case may be, responsibility for the buildings we want to see preserved, and thus defeat its purpose. As it is, where a statutorily listed building is not being maintained in good repair, local authorities can acquire it for preservation by agreement; and this does happen in a good many cases. They also have compulsory powers of acquisition where a preservation order is in force, but this is a more difficult thing, I think, and these powers have, in fact, been used only twice. Purchase by way of agreement is obviously the more satisfactory, and usually the easier, way of the two.
I would remind the noble Lord that again there is always this question of penalties for demolition, although not for lack of maintenance. When it comes to the possibility of somebody deliberately allowing a building to be demolished, in the hope of being able to redevelop more profitably, he can, of course,
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theoretically, be asked to reinstate the building; and, of course, he can also be refused planning permission for any redevelopment. One realises this particular difficulty, and that this gap in the legislation exists, but I do not think it is used very frequently in the unfortunate manner which noble Lords fear.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, would my noble friend say that he can be compelled to restore it if he does nothing but allow it to drop down? I thought he could be compelled to restore it only if he had taken positive action.
LORD HASTINGS: I think that is in fact correct: if he has demolished it, he can be compelled to restore it. But I think that in this case the real sanction would be the refusal of planning permission for redevelopment. However, these cases are very rare indeed, fortunately; and, although one does recognise there is a weakness in the present procedure, it is very difficult to put it right without interfering unwarrantably with private rights and getting into all kinds of practical difficulties.
I am asked whether all these provisions are adequate for the purpose for which they were designed, and whether they are being implemented effectively. The answer, on the whole, is, "Yes". The Government are satisfied that the present arrangements ensure that the merits of buildings of real value are brought to the attention of the local planning authority, and that they are fully considered in consultation with the Ministry when threats to them arise. In view of criticisms which have been voiced in the past, and which continue to be voiced from time to time, I think it is worth while reminding ourselves that, although the purpose of existing legislation is to preserve buildings of special architectural or historic interest, it is not the purpose of this legislation to ensure absolutely that all such buildings are always to be preserved regardless of the circumstances.
However much we may value buildings of historic or architectural merit, or however much we may want to see them retained, we must surely recognise that preservation is not always possible. Preservation may, on occasions, conflict with other important objectives, and it may not even be in the public interest.

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Good buildings are sometimes lost, it is true, but in fact the number of statutorily listed buildings which have been demolished amounts to a figure which is not very great. One cannot be exact about it, but it is somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000, probably, out of a total of 85,000 statutorily listed buildings. I suggest seriously to your Lordships that that is not a sufficient reason for deducing that the machinery of preservation has failed.
This was the view taken, I think by my noble friend Lord Conesford at the beginning of his speech. He thought that the Acts and the procedure were working well in regard to buildings of the highest grade, but he was not so sure in regard to those in the second grade. But the end of his speech—in fact, the last half of it—was really a vigorous criticism of, if not an attack upon, the Government based upon the single case of Ely Place in Holborn. I do not wish to enter into arguments or discussions on an individual case. Of course, we can always find individual cases and base a whole argument or series of arguments upon them. I do not deny that in the past mistakes have been made. I do not deny that cases before us recently, and perhaps cases before us in the near future, will arouse controversy and will lead to differences of opinion. I think that is inevitable. They contain extremely difficult problems and a great deal of care is taken about the decisions in matters of this importance. But certainly I hope I have dispelled any ideas the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, may have had in respect of the neglect of group value, because that certainly is now no longer the case.
I do not think I can reply in detail to the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, who said that he did not quite understand the Minister's policy. This is, and must necessarily be, a rather subjective matter. These questions are often balanced very evenly, and so many pros and cons have to be taken into account. I do not think it can really he maintained that because a local planning authority wishes to put a building preservation order on a particular building, every time it does so it must automatically be supported. I am sure that in the majority of cases local authorities are supported, but there are occasions when
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it does not seem to my right honourable friend right to do so.
There is no doubt that the growing momentum of urban renewal, which we were debating only last week, has brought very special problems in its train—problems of building redevelopment, problems of roads and transport, problems of improvement, conservation and preservation: all these are interconnected. In particular, the problem of town centres and the preservation of the character and quality of buildings within them, which have been stressed during the course of this debate, have also been stressed by the Planning Bulletins No. 1 and No. 4, issued jointly—and this is important—by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Ministry of Transport.
The general question of development near buildings of special architectural or historical interest—a very important matter—which was brought up by the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, was also the subject of a circular sent out by my right honourable friend on August 7, 1963—in fact the noble Lord referred to it. This circular emphasises the great importance attached to any new development near buildings of special interest, and explained how the new development should be fitted in, with attention being paid to the bulk, the size, shape and materials used—
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, may I ask whether the law makes that quite clear: that where buildings are of architectural interest nothing should be put near them to spoil their appearance and value?
LORD HASTINGS: It is not the law. It is not in the Act. But the point is that, when planning permission is being given, the local authorities always have power to control the sort of development and make conditions as to the sort of buildings which shall be erected. The importance of this question has been emphasised by the Minister's sending out this circular to remind the local authorities and give them advice as to their approach in this particular matter.
We have to face the fact—and I think I can say that we did face up to it last week—that there must be changes in our cities and in our towns, and even sometimes in our villages, if we are to

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meet the challenge of to-day and if we are to plan wisely for the future. Nevertheless, the Government are determined to protect the treasures of the past from unnecessary destruction. I hope that what I have said this evening has reassured many noble Lords, and that we can claim that, with the passage of time, procedure has been improved and tidied up with general benefit. We believe that the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Acts and, in particular, the way in which they are being put into operation do enable me to say truthfully that we are well equipped to give this protection.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I wonder whether, before the noble Lord sits down, he could say a word about the operation of the Third Schedule.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am not sure; but I thought I had answered all the points. I am not quite clear.
LORD FARINGDON: Ten per cent. extra.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I think the noble Lord himself answered this
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point. We have altered that Third Schedule. I am sorry my Lords, I did not take up that point. I made a note; but it escaped me. This question is really related to an owner's power to serve a purchase notice on a local authority to obtain a form of compensation; and such notice can be served on a local planning authority only if it can be proved that the buildings in their present form or by conversion cannot be put to beneficial use. And of course "beneficial use" does not mean that they have to be as profitable or as good as the buildings would be if they were redeveloped. It is a much lower standard. If buildings can be used in any way beneficially—and the classic example is Stratford Place, off Oxford Street—compensation will be refused. If the buildings can still be put to a beneficial use, the question of compensation does not arise. I hope that that answer will at least clear up some of the points which have been put.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past seven o'clock.