Sitting of 29 June 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Unemployment Benefit (Personal Case)
    Mr. C. Morrisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce legislation to amend the National Insurance (Unemployment and Sickness Benefit) Regulations to obviate the anomalous situation which arises when an employee ceases to be entitled to unemployment benefit as a result of a reduction in his weekly working hours, details of which have been supplied to him by the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): No, Sir. The hon. Member is referring to a claimant who during the winter works part-time only. The adjudicating authorities decided that during the period in question he had been employed to the full extent normal for him. Unemployment benefit is not intended for days when a man does not in the normal course expect to be working. I am writing more fully to the hon. Member about the particular case.
    Mr. Morris: While thanking the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for that reply, may I ask her if she is aware that, through no fault of his own, John William Marshall, a park attendant in Manchester, finds himself in a situation in which, if he were not more conscientious than he is, he would derive greater financial advantage by drawing unemployment benefit than by working for his living? Surely this anomalous
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    situation is worthy of more consideration than it has received so far, and I ask the hon. Lady to reconsider the decision not to amend the Regulations.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I have been through all the details of the case which the hon. Gentleman sent to me in advance. It depends on the "full normal extent" rule, the principle behind which is that a person should not be entitled to benefit for days when he would not normally be working. This rule was considered in 1955 by the National Insurance Advisory Committee and it recommended no change.

    National Assistance
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the number of persons in receipt of National Assistance in the County of Durham; and what was the average amount paid to them at the last available date.
    Mrs. Thatcher: In the areas served by the Board's offices in the County of Durham, there were 89,793 cases in receipt of National Assistance on 26th May, 1964. I regret that information about the average payment in the County of Durham is not available.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the existence of 89,000 persons in receipt of National Assistance in one county alone indicate that because the pension is inadequate the majority of old-age pensioners are compelled to apply for National Assistance? How does the Ministry justify that situation? Why cannot the hon. Lady give me the figures of the average amounts paid? Surely that information must be in the possession of the Department?
    Mrs. Thatcher: If I may take the last point first, information about the average amounts paid comes from a sample inquiry. That sample is accurate for large areas but not for areas as small as Durham. The average amount of payment for the Northern Region as a whole is 38s. 9d. The Northern Region includes Northumberland, Durham, the North Riding of Yorkshire, Cumberland and Westmorland.
    As to the earlier part of the supplementary question, had the Government followed the principle of not putting up

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    National Assistance benefits when they put up retirement pensions, there would be fewer people on National Assistance than there are now. The Government took the view that it was more important to give those in need a share in the rising standard of living.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the sum of 38s. 9d. which the hon. Lady has furnished, being the average for the Northern region, indicate that the pension itself is wholly inadequate? That is the point that I wish to impress upon her. Would she agree that the pension is inadequate and that, therefore, probably a majority of old-age pensioners are forced to apply for National Assistance?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I would not necessarily agree with the right hon. Gentleman. As he knows, the 6 million people drawing retirement pension cover many ranges of income groups. The pension rates were put up by about 17 per cent. in May, 1963.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many applications were made for National Assistance in the first five months of 1964 in the County of Durham; and how many were rejected.
    Mrs. Thatcher: In the areas served by the Board's offices in the County of Durham, 39,035 applications were received, of which 5,564 were rejected, withdrawn or not proceeded with.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it not a strange situation that in five months of the year nearly 40,000 people have had to apply for National Assistance? Does this indicate the prosperity which the Government have been bragging about in the North-East?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Government are quite right to provide a Department charged with the duty of getting help to those in need. I do not find anything strange in the fact that people in need should go to the Department whose duty it is to do that job.
    Miss Herbison: That is not the point that my right hon. Friend was making; of course, the National Assistance Board helps people in need. Does the Answer not show, however, that in the northeast of England there is a far greater
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    proportion than in many other parts of the country of people who are in such great need that they have to apply to the National Assistance Board? Does not this also show, as my right hon. Friend has suggested, that the affluent society has certainly not touched the North-East?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The average amount of grant payable in the North, which I gave as 38s. 9d., is less than the figure for the country as a whole, which is 40s. 1d.
    Captain W. Elliot: Can my hon. Friend tell the House what proportion of old-age pensioners were drawing National Assistance in 1951 and what proportion are drawing it today?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The proportion is approximately the same as in 1951. It has remained remarkably constant at approximately 22 per cent. of retirement pensioners.
    Mr. Clive Bossomasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what improvements there have been in the standards of National Assistance since 1951.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The rates have been increased eight times and the rate for a single householder is now 111 per cent. higher than at October 1951. Over the same period, the Index of Retail Prices shows an increase of 50 per cent. Changes in the treatment of resources have also been made, the disregards being increased by some 50 per cent.
    Mr. Bossom: While thanking my hon. Friend for that enlightening Answer, may I ask whether he does not agree that this shows that a Conservative Administration gives top priority to looking after those who are less well off? As there sometimes appears to be misunderstanding about who can apply for National Assistance, can my hon. Friend make a statement on what the disregards are?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that if the Government had not increased assistance rates as often as they have there would be far fewer people on National Assistance. Also, if they had not increased the disregards as they have there would be fewer people on National Assistance. The capital disregards, broadly speaking, are

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    these. An owner-occupied house is disregarded entirely; war savings up to £75 each for husband and wife are disregarded completely; other savings up to £600 do not disqualify a person from receiving assistance. On the income side, the disregards are: 30s. and half the next 20s. of earnings; 30s. war disability pensions; 15s. superannuation; and 15s. charitable payments.
    Mr. Mitchison: Without wishing unduly to interrupt the orgy of self-congratulation which is going on, may I ask whether the Government do not think that it is high time some inquiry were made into the effect of changes of prices on the type of people, the groups of people, who are affected over National Assistance and so on, instead of relying on a general retail index of prices which may not have by any means the same effect?
    Mrs. Thatcher: As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, there is a number of inquiries made, particularly through the National Food Survey and the Household Expenditure Survey. I deliberately did not confine my Answer to the Index of Retail Prices, giving other comparisons by which to measure the increase in National Assistance rates. One can compare it with the increase in average earnings. The increase in scale rates then compares with an increase in average earnings of 102 per cent., the increase in scale rates being 111 per cent.

    Widow's Pension
    Mr. McLeavyasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what representations he has received from women's organisations urging an increase in the 10s. widow's pension to 20s. and for the removal of the earnings rule in respect of all widows; and what reply he has made.
    The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Richard Wood): Five such organisations have written on these points during the last 12 months, although none suggested exactly the combination of proposals to which the hon. Member refers. The Government's views on these matters were given on 30th January last during the debate on the Measure which improved the provisions made for widows under the National Insurance Scheme.
    Mr. McLeavy: Is the Minister aware that, apart from the organisations which have made representations to him, a recent conference of Conservative women passed a resolution, against the Minister's advice, to abolish the earnings rule? If the Minister feels that it is not possible to abolish the earnings rule altogether, will he consider the rather modest suggestion contained in my Bill, which has been blocked by hon. Members opposite, whereby widows would be relieved from the earnings rule? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House why it is not possible for the Government to make this reasonable concession to widows, who have great responsibility and who, in my judgment, are entitled to this consideration?
    Mr. Wood: I was aware of the resolution passed by the conference to which the hon. Member has drawn my attention. The reason which I gave on that occasion, and which it is perfectly suitable to give on this occasion also, is that the removal of the earnings rule, either for widows, or for widows and retirement pensioners also, would impose a substantial extra cost. That, however, is not the main consideration, which is that the substantial extra cost would not be devoted to helping the most needy among the widows whom the hon. Gentleman has in mind. That is precisely why the Government have opposed the principle of his Bill and introduced their Measure early this year to help widowed mothers, for whom great sympathy is felt on all sides of the House.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Will not the Minister at least bring up the 10s. to the present-day value of what it was when it was first paid?
    Mr. Wood: This matter also has been debated. To increase the 10s. widow's pension would merely widen the gap between widows in exactly similar circumstances, some of whom have reserved rights and others of whom do not. I do not think that this would be the right thing to do.
    Mr. Lipton: Is it, therefore, the Government's final determination to do nothing for the 10s. widow or in respect of the abolition of the earnings rule for widows during the lifetime of the present Government?
    Mr. Wood: The hon. Member must continue to be patient.
    Mr. Lipton: There is still a chance?
    Mr. Wood: He may hear all kinds of information about all kinds of subjects which may be very interesting to him.

    Retirement Pensioners
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether in view of the fact that budgetary provision has already been made, he will now announce an immediate increase in retirement pensions.
    Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if, in the light of the budgetary provision already made, he will make increases in retirement pensions and other National Insurance benefits.
    Mr. L. M. Leverasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if, in view of the fact that budgetary provision has already been made, he will now take steps to increase the basic pension in order to assist retirement pensioners to meet travelling expenses.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether it is Her Majesty's Government's intention to introduce an increase in the retirement pension before the General Election, in view of the fact that budgetary provision has already been made; and when it will start to operate.
    Mr. Wood: No, Sir. I would refer the hon. Members to my reply to the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) on 23rd June.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that, in view of that Answer, there must have been calculated deceit of the electorate in the Devizes bye-election by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he said:
    "We have budgeted for further pension increases"?
    Does not the right hon. Gentleman recall that, when his hon. Friend was answering Questions last week, she referred to the White Paper on Public Expenditure, in paragraph 11 of which these words are used:
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    "The figures given for 1967–68 do not represent decisions by the Government to spend particular sums in that year".
    In view of that, will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that there will be an increase in the lifetime of the present Government, which means during the next month?
    Mr. Wood: I do not think that my noble Friend can be charged with calculated deceit. The hon. Member could as easily be charged with calculated indifference to the contents of the White Paper, paragraph 21 of which points out clearly that this is an exercise based on constant prices. Consequently, the Government have not committed themselves to figures of exact expenditure. They have merely outlined the kind of level at which benefits, if prices remain constant, would be in 1967–68.
    Mr. Bence: The White Paper, Cmnd. 2235, gives a figure of assistance and benefits plus £60 million. That is the figure which, we presume, is budgeted for in 1967–68. Is this a budgeted figure for an increase in pensions, or is it an estimation of further inflation, from which we seem to be suffering under the present Government?
    Mr. Wood: As I pointed out to the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton), this is an exercise based upon constant prices, so that it has nothing to do with inflation. This is a measure of the extra amount which the Government foresee being spent on benefits of various kinds in 1967–68 if prices between then and now remain constant.
    Mr. Lever: The point of Question No. 25 is the question of travelling expenses for retirement pensioners. Is the Minister aware of the serious hardship to many old-age or retirement pensioners who wish to travel and who have to pay the present high cost of fares? If the Minister will not increase the basic pension, will the Government introduce a system of concessionary fares to retirement pensioners?
    Mr. Wood: The latter part of that question is not a matter for me. My duty is to watch over the level of retirement pensions. The position is that the cost of living has increased by 3 per cent. since the last pension increase, and,

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    therefore, the present rate of pension is still well above, in real value, any other previous rates.
    Mr. Allaun: Since the pledge has been given that a Labour Government will introduce its basic pension increase at the earliest moment after its election, does not the Minister think that this should force the Government to make an announcement very shortly?
    Mr. Wood: The hon. Member had better wait and see.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what estimate he has made of the number of retirement pensioners whose total income is such as would entitle them to a supplementary grant from the National Assistance Board, but who have not applied for assistance from public funds.
    Mr. Wood: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) and the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) on 22nd June.
    Mr. Dalyell: Does not his reply to my right hon. Friend commend to the Minister a minimum income guarantee to overcome this problem?
    Mr. Wood: The Questions put by the right hon. Member for Llanelly and the hon. Member for East Ham, North, related to some kind of inquiry, but there was no suggestion of a minimum income guarantee. The suggestion was that I should undertake some kind of inquiry to see whether there were people who could be entitled to National Assistance who were not applying for it.

    Family Allowances
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the value of the present family allowance as measured in 1951 terms; and whether he will now increase the allowances.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if, in view of the deprivations of children of many low-paid workers with large families, he will now increase family allowances.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The figures asked for by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) are, in terms of 1951 prices, 5s. 2d. for the second child and 6s. 6d. for the third and subsequent children. My right hon. Friend has no proposals for increasing family allowances.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the hon. Lady not agree that that is a shocking reply in view of the Government's declared intention that all sections of the community shall share in the increasing affluence about which she so often talks? How do the Government explain that big families, where there is increasing evidence of malnutrition, are not to share in this affluence, nor does the White Paper about which the hon. Lady has talked make any provision for any increase in family allowances between now and 1967–68? How is she prepared to defend this shocking treatment of big families?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. Member asks about large families, and I will give him figures for four- and five-children families. In 1951, family allowances for a family with four children were 15s. The present equivalent of that would be 22s. 5d. In fact, the amount paid is 28s. For five children the allowance in October, 1951, was 20s. The present equivalent would be 29s. 11d., and the present rate is 38s. We have also to remember that average male weekly earnings have increased very considerably, from £8 6s. in October, 1951, to £16 14s. 11d. in October, 1963.
    Mr. Allaun: Is it not a fact that the 8s. for one child recommended by Beveridge in 1944 would be worth 28s. today? Does not the Parliamentary Secretary remember that last month, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), she said that there were 100,000 children of parents who, because of the wages stop, were getting less than the National Assistance Board level of income, and that these children, plus an even larger number of children of parents who are working but on very low wages, are getting insufficient and inadequate food to eat? Is that a correct state of affairs in the affluent society? Surely, in the name of humanity, there should be an increase?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I understand that Beveridge recommended 8s. a week, but his proposals were ignored by the Labour

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    Party, who introduced 5s. a week. I also understand that in spite of what the hon. Member said about malnutrition, children are generally heavier and taller than they were 12 years ago. I understand from the Report of the Chief Medical Officer to the Ministry of Education that the percentage of children in England and Wales found to be in an unsatisfactory physical condition on medical examination at school was 2·9 per cent. in 1951 and was down to 0·54 per cent. in 1963.
    Miss Herbison: Since average wages of £16 a week mean nothing at all to the man who is earning about £9 a week, and since average size and weight mean nothing at all to under-nourished children, will the Minister at least have another look at this matter, and will she give serious consideration, in particular, to the problem of children of low-wage earners in this country and what might be done through family allowances to help them?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I think that the hon. Lady knows that the amount spent by the Government in looking after the nutritional needs of children, by way of cheap milk, free school milk, cheap school meals and free school meals to those living on small incomes, is very considerable. This year the cost of school meals to the Exchequer will be £62½ million and the cost of free school milk will be nearly £13 million.

    War Pensions
    Sir Richard Glynasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the total weekly compensation paid in pension and related allowances to an almost completely disabled ex-private with a wife and two dependent children in October 1951; what would be the total paid now if it had increased in proportion to average industrial earnings; and what is the total now paid in the circumstances set out above.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Lieut.-Commander S. L. C. Maydon): In 1951 £8 6s. 7d. was paid; the amount necessary to match the increase in men's average earnings between then and October 1963 would be £16 16s. 1d.; and the amount paid today is £19 7s. 3d.
    Sir R. Glyn: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware of the general satisfaction
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    at the fact that the income of this substantial group of disabled ex-Service men has increased very much faster than the average increase in industrial earnings?
    Captain Elliotasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many allowances have been awarded under the arrangements to help widows of severely disabled war pensioners during the weeks immediately following their husband's death; and what has been the average period of delay in putting them into payment.
    Mr. Wood: In the first six months the special allowance for widows of severely disabled war pensioners has been awarded to 469 widows for the thirteen weeks after their husband's death. In nearly all cases the allowance order book was sent to the widow within two working days of the notification of death reaching the Ministry. Amounts have ranged up to £18 a week and the most common is between £12 and £13 a week.
    Captain Elliot: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the whole House will heartily agree with his last sentence? Does he not agree with me that the greatest credit is due to those in his Ministry who deal with these allowances and who, by their prompt and efficient action, have brought much-needed help to these people?
    Mr. Wood: I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Will the Minister contrast those figures with the amount paid to the 10s. widow?
    Mr. Wood: I do not think that the figures are quite comparable.
    Captain Elliotasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what improvements have been made, other than in rates, in the war pensions scheme since October, 1951.
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: The new benefits which have been introduced are the age allowance, the elderly widows' grant, the severe disablement occupational allowance and the temporary allowance for the widows of severely disabled pensioners. A number of improvements have enabled various benefits like the comforts allowance, constant attendance allowance, clothing allowance and widows'

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    rent allowance to be paid more widely among pensioners. The War Pensioners' Welfare Service has been steadily developed, particularly by the extension of visiting to elderly widow pensioners.
    Captain Elliot: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that this is an extremely good record and one of which the Conservative Government can be proud? But is he satisfied that all those who are eligible for these benefits are aware of them? Will he consider the possibility of wider advertisement of them, in newspapers, placards and in any other way, which will bring to these people the knowledge that they are entitled to these benefits?
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: From time to time my right hon. Friend issues leaflets publicising all increases and improvements. In addition, these matters are publicised through the Welfare Service and through the very good work of the war pensions committees in various areas. There is no reason to think that they are not well known to all those eligible for them.
    Mr. Mitchison: How many of these war pensioners have had to apply for National Assistance?
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: I have not the figure immediately available, but I will certainly let the hon. and learned Gentleman know if he will be good enough to write to tell me exactly what he wants.
    Miss Vickersasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what a war pensioner entitled to un-employability supplement received at the latest convenient date compared with 1951.
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: A disablement pension at the 100 per cent. rate, with unemployability supplement, and with comforts allowance which since 1957 has been automatically paid with it, totals £9 19s. The corresponding amount in 1951 was £4 and, allowing for increased retail prices, the present rate is worth 66 per cent. more.
    Miss Vickers: While thanking my hon. and gallant Friend for that reply, and agreeing that many of these people are better off, may I ask how many are in receipt of this benefit? In view
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    of automation, does he feel that some of them might be rehabilitated and perhaps employed in some occupation, which would give even more satisfaction?
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: About 5,500 pensioners are in receipt of the higher disability rates. I am glad to say that the figure for the occupation allowance for the very severely disabled is only a few hundred.
    Mr. Farey-Jonesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the current basic rate of war pension for a 100 per cent. disabled man; how this compares with the rate in October, 1951; and whether the increase has been in proportion to the rise in average industrial earnings.
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: The rate in 1951 was £2 5s. If it had been increased exactly in proportion to the rise in 'men's average earnings, the rate would be £4 10s. 9d. The actual rate today is £5 15s.
    Mr. Farey Jones: I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for that remarkable Answer. Will his Department keep a watchful eye on this matter in view of the supreme importance to these most deserving of all the people concerned?
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: It is our intention to keep a continuing watch on this very point.
    Mr. H. Hynd: I congratulate the Government on improving pensions in accordance with the fall in the value of the pound, but why do they not apply the same principle to the 10s. widow?

    Wages Stop
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware that Mr. Derick Dunkley of Blackburn, who has a wife and five dependent children, has had his National Assistance reduced from £10 4s. 6d. to £8 16s. owing to the operation of the wages stop; and whether, in view of the hardship caused in this and similar cases, he will review the operation of this regulation.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I am aware of the facts of this case. The hon. Lady's constituent is currently receiving £8 16s.

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    a week from the Board. In addition £1 18s. is received in family allowances. The Board believes that the regulations have been correctly applied in this case. As regards the principle of the wage-stop, it would be wrong for a man to be better off out of work than when he is employed.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Lady aware that the manager of the National Assistance Board told me that had it not been for the operation of the wages stop this man and his family would have received £10 4s. 6d. plus family allowances, so the addition of the family allowances factor is, therefore, irrelevant to the comparison? Is it not astonishing and disgraceful that under a Conservative Administration a man can still be earning wages which are less than the National Assistance Board calculates as being the minimum necessary for subsistence? In view of this fact, and in view of all these panegyrics of "the Conservative administration which have been so carefully planned this afternoon, can we now have from the hon. Lady some action in a case of hardship which has been brought to her attention, as she promised last week that if such cases were brought to her attention she would deal with them?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I have looked into cases brought to my attention. I have looked into this case, and I can tell the hon. Lady that the Board was satisfied that in this case the wages stop provision had been correctly applied. She is now either challenging the principle, in which case she says this man should be paid more than if he were in work, or else she is challenging the application in this individual case. If she is challenging the latter, perhaps she would advise her constituent to appeal to the National Assistance Tribunal.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Lady aware that I am perfectly satisfied that the Board locally has done the correct thing under the current regulations? It is not, therefore, the administration I am challenging but the principle. Is it not obvious that such a principle, operating under a Conservative Administration, where wages are so low in many cases, is one which cannot be reconciled with the humane treatment of five children in such a family?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. Lady would, I should have thought, have known that wages are paid regardless of the family. Wages do not vary according to whether a man has five or 10 or 15 children, but the amount which a man can be paid out of National Assistance is calculated by reference to his family commitments. The principle is absolutely defensible that a man should not receive more when he is out of work than he can get by returning to work.
    Mr. Gower: Can my hon. Friend explain how it is that at a time when average earnings are of the nature at least of £16 a week this man seems incapable of earning more than about £10 or £11 a week?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I would not be responsible for the wages paid in a particular area, and I would not like to make any further comment on this particular case, except to say that this gentleman was classified at the employment exchange as a factory labourer.
    Mr. Mitchison: Does not a man need, and do not his family need, enough to live on, and are not National Assistance scales intended to provide him with enough to live on in reasonable comfort—just to live on? Is there not, therefore, something wrong in a principle which results in a reduction, in what is awarded, below a reasonable standard of living for a man and his family?
    Mrs. Thatcher: For the first time we appear to be getting from the hon. Members opposite a fairly clear enuniation that the Labour Party, if it were to be returned to office would pay a man more when he is out of work than he would get if he returned to work.
    Mrs. Castle: In view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of this reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many unemployed persons in receipt of National Assistance within the Mother-well area have a total weekly income which is less than the National Assistance scale rate because of the operation of the wages stop.
    Mr. T. Fraserasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how

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    many unemployed persons in receipt of National Assistance within the Hamilton area of Lanarkshire have a total weekly income which, because of the operation of the wages stop, is less than the National Assistance scale rate.
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many unemployed persons in receipt of National Assistance within the Edinburgh area have a total weekly income which is less than the National Assistance scale rate because of the operation of the wages stop.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the hon. Lady think it rather strange that she is so much less well informed than her predecessors were? Is she aware that I was given an answer to similar Question on 17th December 1962, when I was told that 18 per cent., or about 176, of the persons mentioned were suffering in this way? Are the hon. Lady and her Department now trying to hide what is happening under this wages stop procedure?
    Mrs. Thatcher: No, Sir. As I and my immediate past right hon. Friend explained to the hon. Gentleman after he had asked a question on this subect, wages stop figures are taken from a sample. That sample is taken in December in each year and I cannot therefore give him the figures current today. I can give the hon. Gentleman the figures from last December when there were 6,500 wages stop cases in Scotland. The only departure from the sampling technique comes when we have an up-rating operation, when a special count is taken. That is why the hon. Gentleman got special figures on one previous occasion.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the hon. Lady agree that, if 6,500 people are affected in this way, this represents a problem of sufficient size to warrant continuous information and scrutiny? Will she see that there is continuous information about and scrutiny into this problem? Will she look again at the manner in which the wages stop is applied? I am not objecting to the wages stop as such, but to the way in which it is applied in many cases.
    Mrs. Thatcher: To take the latter point first, very little use appears to be being made of the appeal procedure to the National Assistance Appeal Tribunals which, as the Hon. Gentleman knows, are independent bodies and therefore can give a totally impartial decision. I have already given my views and I do not think that there is anything that I can usefully add about the principle of the wages stop provision.
    Miss Herbison: But are not the hon. Lady and the Minister seriously perturbed that there are more than 6,000 families—because they are almost all family men—who are living below what even this Government consider to be the mere subsistence level? Are not they aware that it is amongst the children of those families where we find malnutrition? Is not the Minister also aware that, in the working of the wages stop, there may be a man who is classed as a general labourer, and a wages stop is applied to him, but he can prove—as has been proved to me—that he has worked many hours overtime, as labourers do, earning about £20 a week? Thus, we are not asking that they should get more when they are idle than when they are working. Will the Minister and her Department examine these matters much more thoroughly than they have done so far?
    Mrs. Thatcher: If, as the hon. Lady contends, a person is wrongly classified, she ought to let us have details of the particular case. Since I made the offer last week to look into individual cases, there has been only one, from the hon. Lady herself, and another which was referred to me as a wages stop case, but in fact was the case of a widow who does not get benefit. I stand by the general principle and will look into individual cases.

    Pensions and Benefits
    Dame Edith Pittasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much the real value of the pensions and benefits of the National Insurance and Industrial Injuries schemes his improved since October 1951.
    Mr. Wood: As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, include a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Dame Edith Pitt: Would I be right in thinking that all these figures show an increase in purchasing power since 1951? Does this not mark up two credits, one to the Government, who have honoured their pledge that pensioners shall share in the increased prosperity, and secondly, to the management and workpeople who, under a private enterprise system, have brought about the production which has made the increase possible—contrary to what happened when the party opposite was in power?
    Mr. Wood: My hon. Friend is totally correct on all counts.
    Mrs. Slater: Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that none of us is unaware of this death-bed repentance of Tory Members on the back benches, and that this pre-election stunt with no promise of doing anything for these people counts neither here nor outside? Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that this argu-

    —

    October, 1951

    Increase in real value comparing present rate with 1951 rate

    Present rates of benefit

    Rate payable

    Equivalent at May, 1964 prices*

    Amount (at current prices)

    Per cent.

    £

    s.

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    Unemployed or sick person—

    Single man or woman

    3

    7

    6

    1

    6

    0

    1

    18

    11

    1

    8

    7

    73

    Married couple

    5

    9

    0

    2

    2

    0

    3

    2

    10

    2

    6

    2

    73

    Married couple with three children†

    8

    11

    0

    3

    7

    0

    5

    0

    4

    3

    10

    8

    71

    Widow, no children

    3

    7

    6

    1

    6

    0

    1

    18

    11

    1

    8

    7

    73

    Widow, three children†

    9

    0

    0

    2

    15

    0

    4

    2

    4

    4

    17

    8

    119

    Retirement pensioner—

    Single person

    3

    7

    6

    1

    10

    0‡

    2

    4

    11

    1

    2

    7

    50

    Married couple

    5

    9

    0

    2

    10

    0‡

    3

    14

    10

    1

    14

    2

    46

    Industrial disablement pensioner with pension at 100 per cent. rate (or persons with injury benefit)

    5

    15

    0

    2

    5

    0

    3

    7

    4

    2

    7

    8

    71

    * On the basis of the Retail Prices Index.

    †Including family allowances under Family Allowances Act 1945.

    ‡The higher of the two rates of retirement pension in payment from the autumn of 1951.

    Benefits
    Dr. Brayasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what general instructions he has given to local officers of his Department regarding the payment of benefits where the regulations are imprecise and refusal to pay a benefit would result in an act of inhumanity, such as when a mother cannot pay for the burial of a child.
    ment which is being put up, that all these increases have been given to people, bears no relation at all to the circumstances in which people are living, and that the hon. Lady herself says that the Tory Government do not intend to abolish prescription charges, which bring in £200 million a year, and that that is an added burden for the old-age pensioners and other people to whom these Questions relate? Do the Government intend to make an announcement before the election, or are they once more making frothy promises to the electorate?
    Mr. Wood: The answer to the hon. Lady is that the Government have made a series of announcements since 1951, not only improving the benefits at frequent intervals, but improving benefits over a very wide range indeed. There is no question at all of a death-bed repentance. This has been a continuous operation since 1951.
    Following are the figures:
    Mr. Wood: Awards of National Insurance benefits are made by independent statutory authorities, in the light of the available evidence. I am sure that the law is humanely applied. Now that the hon. Member has sent me details of the case which he has in mind, I will make inquiries and write to him about it.
    Dr. Bray: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that inquiries have been on foot

    929
    in his Department for three weeks about this extremely distressing case of a mother who was refused payment of death benefit on the ground that she had only the death certificate and not the burial certificate? Does he not feel that the fact that such an appalling incident should happen in his Department shows a lack of supervision and general awareness of the terms under which the public need to be served? Will he make a very thorough-going inquiry of the assumptions and attitudes of local officers, most of whom are certainly extremely conscientious about the purposes of their duty, but who in some instances seem to have got the wrong impression from above, from the Minister, of the objective of their services?
    Mr. Wood: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be perfectly fair. For reasons of which I am well aware, I received his letter about this matter this morning. In his letter he has made various charges which I shall certainly investigate, and I shall write to him as quickly as possible.

    Committee on Assessments
    Mr. L. M. Leverasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will give the terms of reference of the Committee on Assessments which he announced recently.
    Mr. Wood: As the terms contain detailed references to the existing provisions, I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I explained the effect of these terms of reference in answer to Questions on 22nd June.
    Mr. L. M. Lever: How long will it be before the Committee is constituted and gets down to the urgent work on behalf of limbless ex-Service men?
    Mr. Wood: I am sorry that I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a specific time. I shall certainly get on with the composition of this Committee as quickly as possible and I hope that thereafter the Committee will be able to start work without delay.
    Dr. King: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that limbless ex-Service men in particular welcome his initiative in this new scientific approach to the measurement of disablement? Will he consider including on this expert Com
    930
    mittee one limbless ex-Service man, who could contribute to the work of the scientific investigators his own life's experience of disability?
    Mr. Wood: I appreciate the force of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but it is not only limbless ex-Service men who understand these problems.
    Following is the information:
    Terms of Reference
    To examine Schedule 1 and Schedule 3, Table 1, to the Royal Warrant of 24th May, 1949 (Cmnd. 7699) and Schedule 2 to the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) (Benefit) Regulations 1964 (S.I. 1964 No. 504) which relate to the assessment of certain disablements, and

    (i) to consider, in the light of any relevant developments since 1948, whether any, and if so what, modification in the lists of specified disablements, or variation in the assessments of such disablements is desirable; and

    (ii) to consider whether there is any case for special provision by way of supplementary compensation confined to disablement due to amputation, either generally or in relation to advancing age;

    and to report.

    Deferred Retirement (Pension Increments)
    Mr. Johnson Smithasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much a man retiring this year can draw by way of flat rate retirement pension for himself and his wife if he has deferred his retirement until 70 years of age, and earned increments.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The flat-rate pension of a man retiring this year at the age of 70, together with the pension paid on his insurance to his wife if she is not more than five years younger than himself, can be £7 0s. 6d. a week.

    Widowed Mothers
    Mr. Johnson Smithasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much of the weekly National Insurance benefit now paid to a widowed mother can be kept by her irrespective of earnings; and how this compares with the position in October, 1951.
    Mr. Wood: At present £ 3s. 6d. of a widowed mother's National Insurance benefit is not affected by her earnings if she has one child, and £4 13s. if she

    931
    has two children. In October, 1951, the corresponding amounts were 10s. and 12s. 6d.
    Mr. Johnson Smith: I appreciate my right hon. Friend's answer. To what extent would he agree that during the next five years of that Conservative Administration further relaxations of the earnings rule ought to be made in this particular category, according to need?
    Mr. Wood: I suggest to my hon. Friend that he might be wise to base his expectations of the future on the happenings of the past, and in the past, as my Answer makes perfectly clear, there have been progressive relaxations in the earnings rule which have led to very satisfactory results.
    Miss Herbison: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it plain to all hon. Members that besides the increases in benefits, which everybody welcomes, there have also been very great increases in contributions, even by the lowest paid workers? Would he also tell the House what proportion of benefits are now paid by the Exchequer compared with that paid by the Exchequer in 1951? In case this is something which he does not have written down for supplementary answers, will he tell the House that the Exchequer is now paying the smallest proportion ever paid since National Insurance began?
    Mr. Wood: As the hon. Lady seems to know the answer, I do not think that there is much need for me to give it. I do not have it among my supplementary answers because hers was an entirely different question. The answer to her question about contributions is that contributions have increased considerably, but, as I pointed out to one of her hon. Friends last week, they would have to be increased even more if the Labour Party's proposals, which would cost a lot, were brought into effect.

    Industrial Injuries (Death Benefits)
    Miss Herbisonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in view of the facts that the balance in the Industrial Injuries Fund at the beginning of the financial year 1962–63 was £288,093,000 and that there was an increase in the fund at the end of that financial year of £16,433,000, if he will
    932
    make a substantial increase in the death benefits paid to widows under the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Acts 1951 and 1954, as amended.
    Mr. Wood: No, Sir. It has always been planned that the income of the Industrial Injuries Scheme should substantially exceed its expenditure in its early years in order to build up a fund, so that income and expenditure may be in balance when the scheme reaches maturity.
    Miss Herbison: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the widows mentioned in the Question suffer grave hardship on the death of their husbands? Is he not aware that such husbands and wives often have an income on which they can live fairly comfortably, but that when the husband dies from these diseases the widow's income is immediately reduced to £ 7s. 6d. with the very small sum which she gets from the Pneumoconiosis Board?
    Mr. Wood: The hon. Lady has directed my attention to the Acts of 1951 and 1954, whose purpose, as she knows very well, was to put the widows concerned in broadly the same financial position as industrial injuries widows. This has been effected by the payment of death benefit to them which, together with the National Insurance widow's pension, brings them to about the same level as the industrial injuries widow. If they were given any further payment out of the Fund, they would have an advantage over industrial injuries widows, which would not be correct.

    Deserted Wives
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that a deserted wife, who is left with a child to support and whose husband cannot be traced, is in a worse position than a wife whose marriage has been ended by divorce or annulment, in that she gets no contribution towards the support of her child from her former husband, cannot become entitled to Child's Special Allowance, and will not be able to claim widow's benefit unless she can produce evidence that the husband is dead or can be presumed to be dead, and on which it can also be decided on or about what date

    933
    he died; and if he will introduce legislation to allow deserted wives to be paid Child's Special Allowance, and to provide that the husband can be presumed dead after a specified period.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Widow's benefit or child's special allowance can only be paid if there is evidence that the husband is dead, or can reasonably be presumed to be dead. My right hon. Friend does not think it would be reasonable to provide in the national insurance scheme for benefits for deserted wives, but they are eligible for help from the National Assistance Board.
    Mr. Johnson: Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is grossly unfair that a wife who has been deserted by her husband should be left to bring up a child as best she can, getting no help from her husband, cannot have child allowance, and, according to my hon. Friend's interpretation, can never even become a widow? Surely the least that can be done is to arrange for a specified period after which death could be presumed. How can such a woman ever prove that her husband is dead if she does not know where he is?
    Mrs. Thatcher: There is provision in the courts for dealing with presumption of death, which would terminate a marriage. I understand that the difficulty in this case is that there is not sufficient evidence from which death can be presumed. Deserted wives and divorced wives are exactly in the same position in this respect. To get benefit, each would need to prove that her husband was dead. There is no difference in that respect.

    Motor Vehicles
    Mr. Boardmanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is satisfied with the administrative arrangements for dealing with applications for motor vehicles by disabled persons; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Wood: The provision of motor vehicles for the disabled is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. He has asked me to say that these arrangements are reviewed from time to time and that he is satisfied they work fairly and efficiently.
    Mr. Boardman: I am grateful to the Minister for answering on behalf of the Minister of Health, but may I ask him to ask his right hon. Friend to put an end to the practice whereby, on receipt of an application from a disabled person, an inspector is sent to the home of the applicant to inquire into the siting of the garage before a decision is made? This applies in clear-cut cases where people are outside the regulations. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, apart from the incredibly stupid waste of manpower and money involved, it cruelly raises hope when no hope exists?
    Mr. Wood: I shall see that that consideration is brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend. Clearly inquiries have to be made about the facilities to be provided, but I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will take account of the proper order in which these inquiries should be made.

    Graduated Pension Scheme
    Mr. Smallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will refrain from deducting graduated contributions from those workers who will not benefit from such payments.
    Mr. Wood: No, Sir.
    Mr. Small: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that this did not exist in 1951, and that it is immoral to extract contributions when there is no reward at the end? Will he tell that to these contributors to get them to support the Tory Party?
    Mr. Wood: Those who pay graduated contributions will find that, when they finally draw their pensions, they will be drawing benefits worth many times the value of all the contributions which have been paid, even if they have been paying since 1926. I therefore think that National Insurance retirement pensions are a good bargain for all.
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will now make transferability of pension rights a condition which must be observed by any pension scheme which is contracted out of the graduated part of the National Insurance Scheme.
    Mr. Wood: Preservation of pension rights, which may be by means of a transfer, up to the maximum which could have been acquired in the State graduated scheme over the same period of employment is already required for every employed person who leaves contracted-out employment. It would not be feasible to require more than this degree of preservation as a condition for contracting out.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is ample evidence to show that what people want is that if there is a good private scheme by law it should be made transferable? Is it not the case that many people are being driven into the State graduated pension scheme, which they do not want to be in, knowing that they are paying very much more in contributions than they get in benefits? Will he introduce a Measure, which we shall support, making all private schemes transferable by law?
    Mr. Wood: The contracted-out equivalent part of the private scheme is fully transferable, because a contracted-out man, when he leaves a job, must be able to take with him at least the equivalent of what he could have earned in the graduated pension scheme if he was earning at the maximum end of the scale. What the hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing is that we should go further and make transferable in National Insurance the whole pension even if it was very much higher than is provided by the graduated scheme. I think that that would have undesirable consequences.
    Mr. Lawson: The argument for this was set out when the Bill was going through the House. It was argued that private schemes should be regarded as payments of right and be fully transferable. Will the right hon. Gentleman make private schemes fully transferable from one scheme to another? That is what we are asking for.
    Mr. Wood: If we made the private pension fully transferable, when a man left contracted-out employment it would have the effect of putting a premium on the poor schemes and penalising the better schemes. I do not think that that would be a wise action to take.

    Widows (Unemployment Benefit)
    Mrs. Slaterasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what provision is made for widows in receipt either of 10s. pension or no pension in areas of high unemployment when unemployment benefit ceases to be paid.
    Mr. Wood: The arrangements which the Government introduced in 1957 make it possible for these widows to get unemployment benefit for up to nineteen months. Beyond that National Assistance is available as it is for other people who are unemployed and whose title to unemployment benefit runs out.
    Mrs. Slater: But does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that, after 19 months, these widows are forced on to the National Assistance rate? It seems impossible to convince some people how much the people whom I have in mind object to applying for National Assistance. They consider that because they have made efforts in the past they ought not to be considered when unemployment in many areas of the country is so high that they do not stand a chance of getting a job at all.
    Mr. Wood: Figures show the vast majority of single women and widows who have exhausted their unemployment benefit are not deterred, as the hon. Lady suggests, from going, as they have a right to do, to the National Assistance Board. I must point out that the existence of this problem only at the end of a certain period is due to the very important improvements made in 1957 to give these widows a running start for unemployment and sickness benefit.
    Mr. Ross: If the right hon. Gentleman says that the vast majority are not deterred, he must have something to go on. Can he give the figures of those who, after this time, have to go on to National Assistance? Can he also give us figures in relation to particular areas where the obvious lack of employment opportunities produces the highest figures?
    Mr. Wood: The answer to the first part of the question is that the total number of single women and widows who exhausted their unemployment benefit and went on the register for work at the employment exchanges in May was

    937
    just over 7,000. The number receiving National Assistance was 6,300. I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Lady comparable figures for areas, but unemployment among women is 2·6 per cent. in Scotland, which is lower than for men. I am glad to say that in the hon. Lady's area only six women are unemployed out of every 1,000.
    Mrs. Slater: But does not the Minister know that my area bears no comparison with others? Stoke-on-Trent has always been an area where a large number of women have been employed. Unfortunately, very low wages have been paid for their employment in the industry, and in those circumstances a comparison with other areas is of no use at all.
    Mr. Wood: I hope that the tradition of the high employment of women continues in this area.

PORT ORGANISATION
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): Mr. Speaker, with your permission and that of the House I should like to make a statement on port organisation.
I asked the National Ports Council last year to advise me on the future of the ports in the Forth Estuary and the Bristol Channel. I hope that it will be able to let me have its reports on these particular questions shortly. In the meantime, it has told me that it has found it impracticable to consider organisation in these two areas without at the same time coming to a provisional conclusion about estuarial organisation generally, with particular reference to the future of the British Transport Docks Board.
The Council has now reported to me its conclusions on these questions of principle. First, the Council is satisfied that, in general, its national plan should be based on a limited number of major port authorities, in most cases on an estuarial basis, on the lines proposed by the Rochdale Committee. The organisation and ownership of these new authorities may well follow varying patterns, depending on what is best suited to the area. But it recognises that there will continue to be a number of independent
938
medium-sized and smaller ports with important functions to fulfil.
Secondly, certain of these major groupings should be under the control of the British Transport Docks Board. In these cases methods will be worked out to secure full consultation and co-operation between the Board and local interests.
I told the House on 10th July last year that the Government accepted in principle the general idea of estuarial or regional groupings wherever likely to promote greater efficiency. In most cases these groupings will be brought about by harbour reorganisation schemes in accordance with the Harbours Act. Detailed proposals will, of course, have to be considered on their merits in accordance with the procedures, laid down in the Act. I have asked the Council to go ahead on the lines is proposes. But I have made it clear, in view of my responsibilities as Minister under the Harbours Act, that I am not forming any opinion in advance about any particular amalgamation scheme.
I welcome the Council's proposal that the Docks Board should continue as a permanent feature of the ports industry. The Board has achieved a major success since its establishment under the Transport Act of 1962. In some areas the Council's proposals for estuarial reorganisation may mean the loss by the Board of certain ports. In other areas, where the Board is already the predominant dock authority, the proposals may involve the assumption of wider responsibilities.
So much for general principles. Today, I can only speak about one particular case—that is, the Ports of Bristol and Newport. The Council has told me that it sees no advantage in proceeding with any amalgamation of these two ports. I accept this conclusion.
Mr. Mellish: We welcome the Minister's statement, which shows that the National Ports Council is already getting down to this important job. I should like to ask one or two questions. First, I gather that a report will be made to the right hon. Gentleman reasonably soon about both the Forth Estuary and the Bristol Channel. Will the House be informed of the decision of the Minister?

939
Secondly, in his statement the Minister said:
"The organisation and ownership of the new authorities may well follow varying patterns, depending on what is best suited to the area."
Many of us who have port interests, would like to know exactly what that means and how it is proposed to be worked out. I ask the Minister for an assurance that the House will have a chance to discuss it.
Thirdly, we welcome the Minister's remarks about the Docks Board. There is only one mistake in his statement. He refers only to 1962. Before he brought in the 1962 Act the Docks Executive also did a magnificent job. We welcome its continuation, but would like an assurance that the work that it is given to do is compatible with the best interests of the whole nation.
Mr. Marples: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) for welcoming the statement. As for the Bristol Channel, the whole of the Bristol Estuary must await the detailed proposals of the National Ports Council. I mentioned only two cases because I thought that it was desirable to get them out of the way as quickly as possible.
Secondly, the House will have many chances under the Harbours Act to discuss any proposals that the National Ports Council may put forward, and I am sure that those hon. Members who are interested in certain ports will have their chances to say what they wish to say.
Finally, I agree that the Docks Section of the British Transport Commission did very well. I think that it has done even better since 1962.
Mr. Webster: I appreciate that the same sort of formula will not apply to different estuaries, but can my right hon. Friend tell me whether there is any chance of a voluntary amalgamation between Newport and Bristol? Has he anything further to say on that point?
Mr. Marples: The information that I have, and the advice that I have received from the National Ports Council, is that an independent port authority would not be desirable there, nor would it be desirable for Bristol to take over
940
Newport or for Newport to take over Bristol. I accept that conclusion.
Mr. Hoy: In connection with the Forth Estuary, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when we can expect a decision from the Ports Council with regard to the proposed extension of the Leith Docks, which has been before the Government for four years how, and which has been warmly supported by the Rochdale Committee, the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the employers? Can he now give us a date when he can make an announcement about the future of this scheme?
Mr. Marples: I cannot give a date about the scheme, for the simple reason that the Ports Council is at present working on this and hopes to make a submission to me shortly. I saw Lord Rochdale last week and I specifically asked him about this, because I knew that the hon. Member would be in his place and I forecast what question he would ask. I therefore asked Lord Rochdale what his views were. He said that he had not formulated them finally, but when he had he would let me know. I asked whether he could tell me today and he said, "No". I hope to have a decision from him in the near future.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Has my right hon. Friend any immediate plans for the reorganisation of those ports serving the rivers which empty into the Wash? In particular, can he give me an assurance that before any change takes place in respect of the amount of trade which is encouraged at King's Lynn the Borough of Wisbech will be considered as a harbour authority for that port?
Mr. Marples: I said in my original statement that I could not say anything about plans for particular groupings in any estuaries until the National Ports Council had made specific proposals. That is what the Council was set up to do, and I cannot decide anything until it does. But it will be some time before it comes to my hon. Friend's area, because the docks and ports there are on the small, side.
Mr. Callaghan: Is the Minister aware that there will be general satisfaction with the energy that the Docks Board is showing in connection with South Wales, but that there will be one major disappointment in respect of his statement, namely,

941
that it contains no reference to the future of the Port of Barry? As there is a growing trade in the port, and as the Rochdale proposals have been initially condemned by nearly everyone, can the Minister tell us why it has not been possible to say that Barry will continue as a port?
Mr. Marples: Again, as I said originally—I put this in the statement quite deliberately—in respect of Barry, as in the case of other estuaries, I must wait for the Council's report. I should like to meet the point put by the hon. Gentleman if I could, but I am sure that I cannot until I have received the full report of the Council.
Mr. Thorpe: The Minister mentioned smaller ports which will still have important functions to discharge. Would it be within the terms of reference to consider the need for harbours of refuge? Is he aware that there has been discussion of the point that, apart from the Port of Bristol, there is no harbour of refuge from Bristol to Land's End? Would it be possible for these matters to be considered by the Council?
Mr. Marples: If it were something necessary for trade, yes. I should like notice of the question about ports of refuge.
Mr. Callaghan: The Minister will realise that Barry occupies a special position, as it is under sentence of death, unlike other ports about whose future there is no doubt. Can the Minister, therefore, ask the Council to give a special decision about Barry in advance of its general reorganisation proposals as firms there are waiting to know what the future will be before proceeding with other developments?
Mr. Marples: I realise that there is uncertainty in the case of Barry, but I must point out that there is uncertainty about almost every other estuary. I will convey to Lord Rochdale the sentiments and feelings of the hon. Gentleman.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Redmayne.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [20TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1964–65

    CLASS V VOTE 1. MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a sum not exceeding £15,400,000 be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1965, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew; and of the White Fish Authority and Scottish Committee.—[£8,000,000 has been voted on account.]
    Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Redmayne],—put and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  AGRICULTURE
  3.43 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I beg to move,
  That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to produce an effective long-term policy for British agriculture.
  The House will appreciate that it is the Opposition who have proposed a debate on agriculture. This is an important industry and this is the last opportunity for this Parliament to debate some of its problems. For a long period Parliament has been preoccupied with the details of agricultural legislation. From time to time we have discussed Orders and Schemes which have flown from that legislation. Today, we have an opportunity to discuss the broad sweep of agricultural policy. It is the duty of the Opposition to analyse and criticise and to indicate their alternative principles and policies.
  We must ask ourselves, first, what should be our policy for agriculture. Do

  943
  we need a positive policy? This important industry must be considered in relation to that broad question. Agriculture provides food for the nation and an important living for our farmers and farm-workers. Opportunities are provided for many people engaged in the ancillary industries which are of importance to the countryside—the fertiliser and the agricultural engineering industries, to mention only two.
  Agriculture makes a major contribution to the economic growth of the country and plays an important part in the solution of our balance of payments problems. As I have always said—I am sure that I carry the House with me—to achieve a policy we must consider various interests, and these interests must be balanced.
  There are, first, the interests of the producers, the farmers and farmworkers; and, secondly, the interests of the consumers. I trust that this afternoon we shall bear in mind that the Minister of Agriculture is also Minister of Food and, therefore, that it is right and proper to bear in mind the effect of any policy on consumer interests. Thirdly, there are our obligations to the Commonwealth, which are important, in view of the discussions on Commonwealth matters soon to be held in this country at the Prime Ministers' conference. Fourthly, we must remember our obligations to E.F.T.A. and lastly our obligations to the G.A.T.T.
  In the post-war period successive Governments sought to balance these interests. Often they have been reconciled, but sometimes they have not. In the immediate post-war years we had a Labour Government who, in 1945, had to face a world food shortage. Gradually, as the 1950s came upon us, we saw the emergence of an imbalance between the agricultural production of the more affluent Western world and that of underdeveloped countries, especially in Africa and Asia. I recognise that there are exceptions. I recall conducting a survey in Southern Italy for the Council of Europe, where the poor living conditions in backward agricultural communities created serious problems for the Italian Government. A brave effort was made to conquer these problems.
  Today, we have a world in which there is the possibility of surpluses. At
  944
  the same time, a great many people are still hungry and countries are underdeveloped. We have to consider a number of new factors. First, there is a change in the pattern of diet. There is a demand for meat and meat products which is apparent in a dramatic fashion in Asia, for example, in Japan. Another new factor is the increased use of fertilisers and pesticides and a third is the development of what is known as "agribusiness", the growth of larger units and the consequent creation of increased production. This leads to serious social problems in the agricultural industry. We must ask ourselves how successive Governments have matched up to the changing post-war agricultural situation.
  The Labour Government of 1945 passed the 1947 Act, which is still a charter for the industry. In 1947, this country was engaged in a major production drive. There are hon. Members opposite who sometimes seek to belittle the work of that Government, but I still believe that Tom Williams—Lord Williams of Barnburgh, as he now is—was the best Minister of Agriculture that we have ever had. I make no apology today for the work of that Labour Government. I should like to refer the Minister to the childish sneer which is contained in a recently published Tory document, "Agriculture and the Nation".
  On page 52, there is a statement that Socialists have held office during only nine of the 45 years since 1918 and for six years in the last 20 years. It is stated:
  "They have, therefore, had comparatively little influence on the evolution of agricultural policy since the end of the First World War."
  This is rather remarkable in a Tory document as usually the Tories are more accurate. On page 53 it is stated:
  "The Agriculture Act, 1947, and the companion Act, the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1948, were, nevertheless, the foundation of post-war agricultural legislation."
  It is remarkable how the Tories change.
  Since 1952, there has been a period of uncertainty, of drift, of indecision. Here and there, pressure of events has forced the Government to act. There were two major problems. In previous agricultural debates we have discussed these at great length. First, there was the growing problem of Exchequer support.

  945
  I need not quote the White Paper which was submitted to us after the Price Review negotiations. Support is now running at approximately £204 million. I need not quote the estimates for 1964–65 covering, first, the guarantees to Review products and, secondly, production grants running at over £100 million. There has been growing Exchequer support.
  In farm incomes, despite the last Price Review, there has been a relative decline. I have with me documents which every hon. Member must have received from the National Farmers' Union. They indicate in great detail some of the difficulties which the farming community have experienced over the last 10 or 11 years. The National Farmers' Union Annual Review, 1964, Vol. 19, No. 1, says that
  "in real terms, net income is estimated to be 10 per cent. below the 1952–53 level; on the basis of normal weather conditions, it is nearly 4 per cent. lower. Production, however, during the same period has risen by some 27 per cent. These facts demonstrate that the industry has had little or no reward for its increased production and productivity in the last decade."
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House have had to face increasing pressure from organised farm opinion in rural constituencies. Considerable difficulties have been created for small producers. From the end of the 'fifties to the beginning of the 'sixties there has been a virtual crisis in the countryside. This is not just my view. I quote a distinguished right hon. Member opposite, the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), who said in 1960, when speaking of the then Minister of Agriculture:
  "However, I want my right hon. Friend to realise that my farming constituents and people in agriculture generally are worried, not because of the prices which he has imposed, but because, unlike the Budget, his White Paper contained no clear policy and no reassurance for the future."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th May, 1960; Vol. 623, c. 975.]
  That was on 16th May, 1916. [Laughter.] I mean 1960; the right hon. Member is far in advance of 1916, but many hon. Members opposite are not. There has been no coherent policy and the problem seems to be insoluble in spite of the promise given by the Government to stand by the guarantees in the 1957 legislation.
  946
  Then we come to the Common Market negotiations. The present Minister of Agriculture clutched at the Common Market solution. I make my position clear on this matter. I respect those who believed that the answer was to be found in the European solution and that we should advance to a form of federalism, but for the Minister and some of his colleagues it was an escape route. He had no agricultural policy. If Whitehall was to do nothing, Brussels would.
  The Minister of Agriculture and the present Secretary of State for Industry and Trade were virtually the Tweedledum and Tweedledee of Common Market politics. The tragedy is that they never really negotiated. They were too enthusiastic for entry. The Minister of Agriculture lauded the managed market which he now condemns when he chides the Liberal Party. He even defended the cereals regulations, which were one of the first groups of regulations emerging from the Common Market discussions.
  We have always stressed that the interests of British agriculture must be safeguarded. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, the late Leader of the Opposition and the party, at its Brighton conference, all stressed that our own agriculture should not be thrown overboard. The Prime Minister has said that this is "a dead duck". It seems to be a funny duck, for it still squeaks. I should like to know what Government policy is on this matter. I am suspicious. I still believe that the Government would like to solve many of their problems by going into the Common Market. I hope that the Minister will reply to this argument.
  Coming to matters affecting home conditions, the right hon. Gentleman said at Exeter, at the beginning of this year:
  "The difference between Conservative and Labour agriculture policies was that, while the former favoured a free market system and a minimum of regulations. Labour wanted controlled commodity commissions, with all the paraphernalia of State trading."
  How naïve can hon. Members opposite be? I am sure that the Minister was speaking from the Conservative Central Office brief and not from one of the excellent briefs from his own Department.

  947
  Why does the right hon. Gentleman say that this is the choice? Is he aware that the Government have taken over some of the most rigid control systems ever introduced to the industry. The Agriculture and Horticulture Act, 1964, gives the Minister tremendous powers of control. These are not minimum regulations. My hon. Friends—indeed, hon. Members opposite—stressed time and again that Part I of this very important Act has given the Government greater power over agricultural imports than any other Government has had. It has aroused considerable controversy. Part I enables the Minister to control, by means of import levies and a minimum price system, products coming into this country. These are not minimum regulations, but a Ministry control and planning operation. He knows that he was talking nonsense at Exeter. The Government, by the pressure of events, have had to adopt a measure of planning.
  What about the Minister's agreement on meat products? What about the bacon agreement? We are now controlling the market and British industry has been given a share of the British market. For 1963–64, it is to be about 216,000 tons. British producers are to have an allocation. The simple fact is that the logic of events has forced the Government to act and, inevitably, there will be some measure of State interference. I once called the right hon. Gentleman a crypto-Socialist. I think that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) would call him something worse than that.
  Sir Richard Glyn: Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. Peart: Not yet.
  The agricultural issue is not one between public and private enterprise, between planning and no planning, between organised marketing and free trade. It is not an issue between cooperation or non-co-operation. The question is: what should be the degree of partnership between the State—that is, public enterprise—and private enterprise? How far should the Government intervene? To what degree shall there be State or Government planning? What
  948
  degree shall there be of organised marketing? What degree of co-operation will take place between private producers, and how far will the State—that is, the Government—help in this process? The real issue is, how far is the community involved?
  First, how far will we give Exchequer aid? Secondly, how far will we still plan assured markets and guaranteed prices? Thirdly, how far will we keep intact the basic principles of the 1947 and 1957 Acts? I have never said that these Acts should be sacrosanct. They should be adapted to changing conditions. What will be the degree of planning within the industry itself, and what form will it take? Will it be private and public, or will there be a combination of both?
  The remarks of the Minister at Exeter were very silly. They were almost as stupid as the fatuous remark of the Prime Minister that we have a junk yard of nationalisation. The National Agricultural Advisory Service is a nationalised concern. Is that a junk yard? I should like to know. I ask the Prime Minister, who is here: is the Forestry Commission, for which the Ministry of Agriculture has a responsibility, a junk yard of nationalisation? Is the position in agriculture, where the State has intervened very well, in keeping with his frank talk? Will the Prime Minister respond to my challenge? Are these bodies covered by his silly remark? He remains silent. No doubt he will reserve his answer for Conservative women's gatherings, where he cannot be heckled.
  I come to some of the main issues in agriculture. We must consider the issue of support and production, the problem of marketing and the rôle of imports and the structure and our obligations. I have always argued that the deficiency payment system is a right one. I have accepted it in principle. I have also accepted the view that production grants are a means of injecting capital into different parts of the industry. Nevertheless, this Exchequer support should be controlled and supervised, and that is why, on previous occasions, we have always sought, in administration, to analyse critically some aspects of Government financial policy.
  I have accepted, too, the principle that we must have standard quantities. This

  949
  is a view which we stressed in the 1947 Act, in which it was said that we should produce
  "such part of the nation's food and other agricultural produce as in the national interest it is desirable to produce in the United Kingdom".
  Incidentally, that part of the Act was opposed by hon. Members opposite, but now they accept standard quantities. Will these standard quantities be restricted? The Scottish National Farmers' Union has been critical. The National Farmers' Union for England and Wales has accepted the principle of guarantees and standard quantities with reservations. Nevertheless, as I have said, we on this side are prepared to examine where support has gone and how far it has benefited the industry.
  As I have shown, many small producers have faced hardships. Many of them have not benefited from the increased Exchequer support. We have the example of our small milk producers. Whether the Minister likes it or not, there could well be a milk crisis this year if we have unfavourable weather conditions. We have seen a pattern emerging in the industry. [Laughter.] This is no laughing matter. I will give the Secretary of State for Scotland the figures for England and Wales. I am sure that the figures for Scotland are just as bad.
  From 1955 to 1964, there has been a strong decline in the number of registered milk producers. The reason is that they have been dissatisfied with the Government's pricing policy. In 1955, the number of registered producers was 142,792. By 1960, it had dropped to 123,137. By the end of March this year, it had dropped again to 105,576. I know that many of these producers have not gone out of business; they have switched production. But many of them—in Cornwall, Devon, and other parts of the West Country and in Cumberland and Wales—have had to face a very serious crisis for a long time as a result of the policy pursued by the Government.
  There has been a failure on the part of the Government to make their intentions clear. This view has been expressed by many leaders in the industry. What is the production policy of the Government? I should like to see a five-year policy. I believe that this is possible.
  950
  The representatives of the industry and the Government could meet every year during the February Price Review negotiations. There should be some indication of a broad policy pursued by the Government. This view is held by the National Economic Development Council. In the Council's "Growth of the United Kingdom Economy to 1966" there are some suggestions for the Government to take up.
  The section dealing with agriculture, on page 67, states—and no doubt this may coincide with the N.F.U.'s point of view:
  "Effective planning is limited to some extent by uncertainly about national food requirements and prices of farm products. Particular problems to which the industry has drawn attention are"—
  and it then goes on to talk about more effective marketing, and so on. It is accepted that we could improve our production policy by more effective planning. That is the Opposition's view.
  We have always argued that a deficiency payment system working in a free market will inevitably produce the crises which we had at the end of 1961. In February, 1962, the Minister had to come to the House and ask for an increased estimate of nearly £90 million. That is why we argue that the main emphasis should be on a marketing policy.
  For the last 10 years the Government have done literally nothing. We have had a period of drift. The Minister has dillied and dallied. He is a Minister of dilly and dally. He has always said, "Leave it to the industry. I wash my hands of it. It is not for me". He said that over meat. He would never have introduced the Verdon Smith Committee if there had not been that crisis. It was during the crisis debate over the Estimates that he announced the Verdon Smith Committee. He says, "Leave it to a committee. Let the committee come to conclusions and we will look at the matter again." No doubt we shall have a period of delay.
  What do the Government propose to do about the Verdon Smith Committee? I have tabled Questions on this matter. Are we to have a reply before the General Election, or will the Government evade the issue? The importance of

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  meat marketing has been brought out by the recent shortages of beef following reduced imports from our traditional suppliers like Argentina. No doubt today many hon Members will devote their speeches exclusively to the question of meat. Are the Government certain that the meat crisis, which is still with us—I use the word "crisis" in a wide sense—is due to shortages because of the position in Argentina?
  On page 36 of the Commonwealth Economic Committee's Intelligence Bulletin for June, 1964, there are some extremely interesting figures about Argentina's position. They show that Argentine exports of meat to the United Kingdom from January to April, 1963, were running at 100,000 tons. They are now down to 51,000 tons. But for France the figures for the first few months of 1963 was 300 tons. The latest figure is 2,700 tons For Italy, the figure was 27,000 tons. The figure for 1964 is 36,000 tons. For Western Germany, the figure has gone from 5,500 to 26,200 tons. For Switzerland, it has gone from 600 to 4,100 tons. For other European countries, too, there has been a tremendous increase.
  In other words, a large proportion of Argentine exports is now going to the Common Market countries and Switzerland. Is that the real reason for the trouble, or is the drought in the Argentine the reason why we have not had supplies in this country? We negotiated a voluntary agreement with the Argentine. We want to know now what the Government are doing about Commonwealth supplies, too. What assurances are we giving to Australia and New Zealand, for example? We have a right to know because our Commonwealth producers were for some time discouraged by the Government's attitude towards the Common Market.
  In the pig and bacon industry, are we still to have uncertainty and a policy of "stop-go", such as we had for a long time? Our producers want to know what the Government's intentions are. No doubt, the Minister has read what is said in the editorial in the July issue of that very important journal, Pig Farming:
  "From the pig industry's point of view, the Government's record has been one long failure to foresee the need for expansion."
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  This is not Transport House speaking. These are the words of the leading pig farming journal:
  "Two years ago the Ministry back room boys by their miscalculations of the market's needs deprived producers, it is estimated, of £7 million, and at the last Price Review Mr. Soames blundered when he cut prices by 6d. a score, knowing that it would be touch and go whether we could fulfil our share of the home bacon market."
  In pig farming there is great uncertainty, because the Government have had no marketing policy.
  We have had no indication of the Government's policy for horticulture. Over and over again, my hon. Friends have stressed the need for proper marketing arrangements. For instance, in our debates on the Horticulture Act, 1960, we stressed that the Horticultural Marketing Council, which was then to be set up, should have some powers and opportunities to deal with imports and advise the Government. Our recommendation was rejected, and we know the sad history. The Horticultural Marketing Council has now died and there is no body to take its place. Are we to have a statutory authority? What do the Government propose to do, particularly in relation to the provision of wholesale markets, to give just one example?
  There has been prolonged delay in deciding what to do about Covent Garden Market, arousing criticisms even from right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Now that a decision has been reached to go to Nine Elms, what do the Government intend to do? Are we to have a regional plan for wholesale markets in central London and outer London? We have waited too long already. These are vital questions affecting not only London, but many other parts of the country.
  What about existing marketing schemes? Are the Government satisfied that they are adequate? For instance, what is to be the position of the Egg Marketing Board and what are its powers to be? Are we to have a wider scheme? The industry is now facing a critical period when there could be considerable over-production and many of our small producers could go out of business. What do the Government propose to do?

  953
  Now, the main issue, imports. The Government have sought to co-ordinate imports with home production according to the terms of the 1964 Act, but is the Minister proposing to create some real machinery for this purpose? Last May, he declared in this Chamber that machinery would, perhaps, have to be adapted or adopted. He said:
  "The detailed arrangements for the different commodities which we would aim to agree with our overseas suppliers might well need to include: a body to keep under review the level of supplies and also the phasing of those supplies in our markets in the light of changes in the pattern here and overseas and other factors such as the opening up of new markets."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd May, 1963; Vol. 678, c. 449.]
  I admit that he went on to say that it might be unwise then to decide on the machinery before we could see clearly what its task would be. Can he now see clearly? Are we to have some new machinery? All we get from the right hon. Gentleman is a silly gibe at the Labour Party's proposals on commodity commissions.
  I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the National Association of Corn and Agricultural Merchants and the compound feedingstuff manufacturers have had something to say about this. I shall not quote from their documents—they have been submitted to hon. Members on both sides—but these very important bodies in the industry have come out in favour of a commodity commission. I admit that they do not want a trading commission, but they do require some new machinery. So far, the Government have done nothing; they have merely said, "We will enlarge part of the Civil Service". Are we to have new administrative machinery to match the implications of the new legislation which has been brought forward? This is a vital question.
  What do the Government intend as regards the structure of the industry? They have spoken with two voices. The Minister seems to suffer from schizophrenia, wishing, on the one hand, to give aid to small farmers, while, on the other, wishing to squeeze them out. This has been the effect of the Government's policy, of course, and we have seen what has happened. What does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do for many of our small farmers in the hill farm areas? We must examine
  954
  closely some of the difficulties created by his review of the cow subsidy, for instance. What sort of development scheme are we to have for our hill areas?
  As for the poultry industry, do the Government intend to sit back and see large monopolies dominating the scene? This is an industry which shows the features of both vertical and horizontal integration to a large extent. Is the Egg Marketing Board to be given powers? Is the small producer to be finally driven out? Do the Government intend to encourage more producer co-operation, and when will they get a move on with marketing? Are there to be credit facilities, as we suggest in our policy document, through the creation of a new credit agency backed by the Treasury? This is a vial question for many of our small producers. Is the National Agricultural Advisory Service to be expanded? The industry wants to know.
  Lastly, what is the Government's attitude towards wider international questions? Some time ago, the National Farmers' Union produced a very imaginative farm and food policy, a policy approved by producers at their national conference. I want a new world authority. Although we see within parts of the Western World the accumulation of great surpluses, millions of our fellow beings are still starving. As the late Ernest Bevin once said, we can never have peace out of hunger. How right he was! The tractor and the plough become more important than the machine gun and the tank. This is where we want more British initiative. It is not idealism. I want a world food board for sound, practical reasons. We should have a world food board to stabilise the prices of agricultural commodities on the world's markets, including the provision of the necessary funds for the stablising operation. Secondly, we want a world food board to establish a world food reserve adequate for any emergency. Thirdly, we want it to provide funds for financing the disposal of surplus agricultural products.
  There is now a world food programme organisation, but I want this body to cooperate also with organisations concerned with international credits for agricultural and industrial production and development. In my view, this is a "must". It

  955
  is the sort of thing which a Minister of Agriculture, backed by an imaginative Government, should be doing at United Nations level. It is vitally important because, in the end, whatever we do as regards our own production policy at home must be matched with developments elsewhere.
  I want an organisation of this kind to supervise international commodity agreements. I want this country to have a confrontation of its own policy with other national policies in O.E.C.D. and also with Commonwealth countries. I want the limited agreements, such as the Bacon Agreement and the agreements we have with New Zealand and Australia, to be supervised by this wider organisation.
  What do the Government intend to do? The simple fact is that they have done nothing. For these reasons, we say that the Government have followed a policy of indecision, have had no imagination, and can be removed only by going to the electorate.
  4.20 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Michael Noble): I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "welcomes the developments in the Government's agricultural policies, which provide the best basis for the continuing prosperity of the industry".
  I am very grateful—I am more grateful than I expected to be at this moment—to hon. Members opposite for giving us the opportunity to have a debate on agricultural policy. I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) on being the only Scot visible on the Opposition benches for this important occasion. [An HON. MEMBER: "Look behind."] I was aware, having looked behind me, of the considerable support for the Government, including that of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
  This support has enabled us to listen to a speech by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) which did part of what he set out at the beginning to do. He said that it was the duty of the Opposition to analyse the position, to criticise it, and above all—he said this at the beginning of his speech—to
  956
  declare in the coming months their own policy for agriculture. I know that the hon. Gentleman belongs to the rapidly dwindling number of people who believe that the Opposition may become the Government, but I should have thought that at this stage we would have had a serious attempt to produce a policy and set forward the ideas the Opposition will offer to the electorate in the coming months.
  Mr. Peart: We will.
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Gentleman says that the Opposition will do that, but what better occasion than this? I am certain that the farming community all over the country will read the hon. Gentleman's speech carefully. It contained a great deal of good sense, largely supporting the policies which the Government have, in fact, carried out.
  The second reason why I am grateful to hon. Members opposite for giving us the opportunity of this debate is that I believe that it will be possible to demonstrate how futile the Opposition Motion has been. I shall be able to show—my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, when he winds up, will be able to drive many of the points home—not only that we had a clearly defined policy, but that we have already made a powerful start in implementing the new approach to our present-day problems on the lines outlined by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture in May, 1963.
  What is more, I shall show that that policy is still in the course of further development, with prospects of still further benefit to producers and the public generally. The main objective of our policy is this. We have always stood behind the principles of the 1947 Act. The hon. Gentleman referred to Lord Williams of Barnburgh as the sponsor of that Act, and I agree with him. We stand for the promotion and maintenance of a thriving agriculture, but there has been a technological revolution in production.
  The position is very different today, as the hon. Gentleman admitted, from what it was in 1945 or 1947. We welcome this revolution, and we have done much to promote it both by our research programmes and by our advisory services.

  957
  But we have seen that changes are needed, if these advances are not to be frustrated by the disorganisation of the market by surplus supplies, possibly small surpluses and temporary ones, whether from home or from overseas.
  Let me remind the House what the Government have already done to provide for this new situation in regard to the main farm commodities. In all cases I will remind the House of what we have already accomplished in implementing the broad programme announced by my right hon. Friend in May of last year and what we have in hand to do still further to bring that policy to its full fruition.
  Let us look at the main commodities. First in importance for British farmers is milk, which accounts for about 23 per cent. of the value of farm sales. The home farmer supplies the whole of the nation's requirements of liquid milk. Up to two years ago, milk output was rising much faster than liquid consumption. Because so much of the extra milk had to be sold for manufacture at low prices, farmers were experiencing a steady erosion of the pool price paid by the boards.
  By the beginning of 1963 there were signs that farmers were realising the need to stabilise production. Although output was severely affected by the winter of 1962–63, taking that year as a whole output was virtually unchanged from the previous year, 1961–62. In 1963–64, output has been about 3 per cent. lower than in either of the previous two years. The effect of this has been seen in the supplies of milk available for manufacture and in the rise of the pool price.
  The hard winter of 1962–63 also had its effects on milk production throughout Western Europe. Butter prices on our market rose steadily until the autumn of last year, but the quota arrangements which we have with our overseas suppliers are essentially flexible, and we have been able to maintain fairly steady prices since last autumn. The supplies we hope to obtain from North America in the next three months will further help to stabilise the position.
  Milk yields at home are now resuming their upward trend and, although there has been heavier culling in the dairy herd than usual on account of the strong demand for beef, I expect a recovery in
  958
  the milk producing herd in the coming year. The increase in the number of heifers in calf from 742,000 in March, 1963, to 782,000 in March, 1964, is a healthy sign. We were able, at the last Annual Review, to make a substantial increase in the guaranteed price of milk. There is no question of a shortage of milk for liquid consumption, unless one accepts the hon. Gentleman's theory that, if the weather is disastrously bad, there could be a shortage. So there could be in every other single agricultural commodity in this country and in any other. The Government would like to see the increase in milk production kept in line with the continuing growth of liquid consumption, because only in this way can the pool price be maintained.
  There has been a most striking increase in the production of cereals. Grain production has risen by more than one-third in the last five years. Barley production has doubled. The market has done very well in absorbing these increased supplies, but it has been evident for some time that action was needed to match both home and overseas supplies more closely to the needs of the market. All too often prices were depressed by weak selling of the home crops and by the incursion of supplies from overseas at what one might call bargain basement prices. The subsidy bill on cereals rose from £52 million in 1958–59 to £77 million in 1963–64.
  As a result of successful negotiations with our overseas suppliers, and of discussions with the farmers' unions at the last Annual Review, we are introducing for the coming year the system of standard quantities and target indicator prices for the home crops of wheat and barley and minimum import prices for the competing grains from overseas. In this way we intend to bring greater stability to the market and to provide reasonable opportunities for both home and overseas suppliers to share in the growth of our market. We are not setting out to raise prices or to impose any burden on the consumer, but we shall have brought the Exchequer cost of support under control; and we have provided a framework in which to develop the improvements in marketing of our home cereals crops, to which I shall refer later.
  Now, if I may say a word or two about pigs. In the past, pig production was

  959
  bedevilled by the uncertainties caused by recurrent pig cycles—pigs were either muck or money. Both the Government and the farmers' representatives were in agreement in thinking that we must seek to avoid excessive fluctuations in pig numbers. The flexible guarantee arrangement introduced in 1961, and tightened up at the 1963 Review, has given us a real measure of stability, and the prospects are of continued stability for as far ahead as we can presently see at a high level of around 12 million pigs a year.
  As a result, the demand for pork and other pigmeat products, which two years ago was falling behind the rapid expansion of production and causing low market prices and high subsidy payments, has been able to catch up. In recognition of the strength of the demand for pork, and the existence of the Bacon Market Understanding, we were able this year to raise the middle band of the flexible guarantee to give producers an immediate increase in their price. Greater stability of production and of prices goes a long way to promoting a more healthy market and guarantee position. Not only does it enable our pig producers to have greater confidence; it should also provide the sort of conditions favourable to the economic operation of our pig processing industries.
  Bacon is in a rather different position from pork. Imports constitute a big part of our total supply. Through the Bacon Market Understanding, we aim to secure more stable prices for bacon on our market. Our bacon curers, anxious to maintain and, indeed, expand their share of the market—and with an interest in regular purchases of pigs under contract with producers—are naturally concerned lest the bacon and pork markets should pull in opposite directions.
  I understand the reasons for their concern. Indeed, it was because of this that we undertook to examine with them and the other interests whether further provisions are necessary to influence or regulate United Kingdom bacon production at the levels laid down in the Bacon Understanding. We are pressing on with this examination. Moreover, the price relationships between the bacon and
  960
  pork markets have been better recently from the point of view of the curing industry.
  The hon. Member for Workington made some play with the beef situation. He accused the Government of a lack of foresight and said that we should have done more to encourage home production. I must remind him that over the four years from 1959–60 to 1963–64 home production of beef has been increased by 30 per cent. Without seeking to claim too much, I consider that to be an extremely reasonable record.
  We now produce at home more than 70 per cent. of our beef. As long ago as the White Paper of December, 1960, we said that there was clearly scope for expansion of beef production. We raised the guaranteed price by 10s. a cwt. at the 1961 Review, and this year we gave a further stimulus of 3s. a cwt. and increased the steer calf subsidy by 10s. a head.
  To understand the real cause of our difficulties we must look overseas. It has been estimated that only about 6 per cent. of world beef production passes into international trade. Quite small changes in either production or consumption in the exporting countries can, therefore, bring about disproportionately large fluctuations in the volume of exports. In addition, prices are sensitive to marginal changes in supply.
  For these reasons the beef market has been subject to instability, though there has never been anything like a world surplus of beef. Supplies and prices of other meats on our market have fluctuated considerably too, and it was against this background that my right hon. Friend made his statement of 22nd May, 1963, announcing the Government's intention to secure greater stability in the meat market.
  The basis of our proposal to our overseas suppliers regarding beef and lamb was that supplies should initially be stabilised at current levels, with the opportunity to share in the expansion of the market. In return, the overseas suppliers would have agreed not to exercise rights of unrestricted entry in terms of quantity. This was a considerable decision for them, but one which, in principle, they were willing to take.

  961
  The negotiations broke down largely because the exporting countries were insisting on the right to send quantities which were both greater than we thought appropriate in market terms and which would have given an undue share of the market to imports as compared with home production. The total quantities we were prepared to write into the agreement as annual minima were substantially in excess of what imports now seem likely to be in 1964. Concurrently with our own negotiations, there have been discussions in Geneva by the G.A.T.T. Meat group, of which the United Kingdom is a member, on an international agreement for meat. This group has been set up largely because the exporting countries wished, as part of the Kennedy Round, to improve their opportunities for access on reasonable terms into the markets in the industrial countries and because of the general desire to bring greater stability into the meat markets.
  We, as an importing country, look to overseas suppliers to maintain a reasonable continuity of supply to our market. There can be no stability if supplies from overseas are here one month and not the next. If our traditional suppliers are to secure their future access, we must look to them to recognise an obligation to maintain an assured and reasonably level supply to our market.
  This was the approach on which we we were prepared to negotiate, and we believe that these principles are capable of wider application. Britain's' constructive approach has been welcomed and has met with support from a number of both importing and exporting countries. The United States has, in fact, carried through agreements with its major suppliers of beef on very similar lines to those that we have been advocating. We are continuing to work in the G.A.T.T. meat group towards an international agreement as part of the Kennedy Round. Depending on the progress made there we shall decide whether it is necessary to resume discussions with our suppliers on special arrangements for the United Kingdom market.
  Mr. Harold Davies: I do not wish to make a party point, but to clear up an important matter. I have with me Cmnd. Paper 2339, in which it is stated that the Minister of Agricul-
  962
  ture, Fisheries and Food and his colleagues negotiated with many countries—and I have particularly in mind the United States—and reached agreements which, according to the White Paper, are terminable on four-months' notice, or, according to paragraph 12, if special and specific reasons arise. Would the Minister comment on that, bearing in mind the fact that the United States has been increasing its acreage under wheat and now has 21 million acres of wheat, also remembering that the wheat lobbies at international organisations and conferences are bound to become even more important as the years go by?
  Mr. Noble: I think that the hon. Gentleman is perfectly right in saying that these agreements—and he refers to cereal agreements, I take it—are terminable. That must be so with any agreement of that sort. The important thing is to be able to bring the major countries—the United States, Canada, Australia, and so on—round the table, and start by fixing some agreements that we all intend to keep. That is the first step, and it is right that it should be taken.
  I do not think that the hon. Gentleman wants to bind the country to five-year or 10-year agreements, because in all these things the markets change very quickly indeed. The House saw what happened to the whole cereal and wheat production in Russia last year, and how it changed the whole world picture overnight.
  In the meantime, a Meat Study Group has been set; up, consisting of the United Kingdom and its principal suppliers, where we can exchange information about supplies to our market. We believe that this will make an important contribution to the better phasing of the available supplies than has sometimes been the case in the past. It is now well known that the present high beef prices result partly from a shortage of imports and partly from the strong demand for beef on the Continent. But let us get this matter in perspective. My right hon. Friend will deal with particular points later in the debate. While in the April to June quarter just ended beef supplies are down on the corresponding quarter of last year, the total supplies of all other carcase meat and poultry have been

  963
  well maintained and, indeed, are slightly higher than in the corresponding period last year.
  Certainly, the beef shortage has led to higher beef prices on Smithfield, and this has had some effect on the prices of other meats. Because of the high level of demand, and because supplies cannot be rapidly increased, prices of beef are bound for some time to stay higher than in the past. We should not be justified at present in taking any steps to stop or restrict exports. If we were to try to lower the price on our market by interfering with the export trade, this would widen the gap between our price and Continental prices and the only result would be to divert supplies away from our market to the Continent. Depending, as we do, on imports for some 30 per cent. of our beef supplies, we cannot hope, in times of shortage like this, to insulate our market from other free markets.
  We must expect, therefore, that beef prices will remain high so long as a strong demand and a virtually free market exist on the Continent. The price of beef on the Continent is still much higher than in the United Kingdom, and demand there seems likely to remain high for at least several months.
  The hon. Member for Workington stressed the importance of marketing. I intend to say something on this subject in relation to the three main sectors, horticulture, cereals and meat. First, horticulture, where good marketing is vital. The grower's produce goes from holding to housewife unprocessed; and it is mainly highly perishable produce. Because of this, marketing is the immediate concern of the grower, and good marketing pays him immediate dividends.
  We are helping him to reap those dividends, first, by providing grants for a wide range of marketing equipment. The new Horticulture Improvement Scheme, now approved by Parliament, extends the list of eligible equipment, and includes, for the first time, buildings and equipment for co-operative markets. Secondly, we are helping growers with the working capital they need to form or expand marketing co-operatives. Thirdly,
  964
  we are making grants available to the small grower to help him key in his production to the demands of the market. Then, fourthly—and I attach the utmost importance to this—we are helping to ease the bottleneck through which the great bulk of horticultural produce flows.
  I mean, of course, the wholesale markets. I have seen it suggested that there is no future for the wholesale market; and that not even the stimulus of the grants we are providing will induce market authorities to rebuild. I should like to rebut both those suggestions most emphatically. I am convinced that—at any rate, over the next 20 or 30 years—the great bulk of the horticultural produce grown in this country will continue to pass through the wholesale markets.
  Every major country in Western Europe is building new markets. America, the land—one could say the home—of the supermarket, is building new markets. Here, no less than there, new or improved markets are vital to the future prosperity of horticulture. It is, therefore, a very welcome fact that nearly every authority responsible for an important market that needs redevelopment has positive plans for that redevelopment. It is the main purpose of the grants to accelerate the translation of those plans into action, and I am glad to say that many of the leading market authorities have already made approaches in connection with the new grants.
  But new markets alone will not ensure good produce. If the produce from our holdings is to stand up to foreign competition it must be equally well graded. That is why we have taken powers to introduce compulsory grading. Draft grades for the first five commodities—apples, pears, tomatoes, cucumbers and cauliflowers—will go to the growers and traders for comment within the next few weeks. We shall begin to train the first intakes of grading inspectors in the autumn. This is an urgent task, and we are tackling it as fast as we can.
  All this adds up to a comprehensive programme for better marketing. I am sure that the industry will respond to these measures, for I think that it is increasingly understood that only good and competitive marketing can bring the assurance of future prosperity.

  965
  The marketing of cereals is an extremely intricate problem, and has stood up remarkably well, I think that the House should realise, over a period when wheat and barley production at home has doubled over the last 10 years. None the less, I do not think that anyone on either side of the House would doubt that there is room for improvement. The main problem is one of phasing our supplies, both home supplies and imports. If this is achieved satisfactorily it is equally good for the farmers and for the buyers.
  The Government introduced a seasonal scale of guaranteed prices for wheat some years ago, and an incentive scheme for barley. This has helped both the growers and the users, but the users would, I think, like to be certain of greater regularity of marketing arrangements. The users of home-grown wheat would like to be able, if possible, to be as certain of getting home grain at specific times as they are able to achieve with imported grain, where they can make forward contracts with firm delivery dates.
  The second problem which makes phasing difficult is that of the weak sellers, to whom I have referred earlier, who, in the autumn, perhaps, want to get rid of a crop as quickly as possible, because they either want or need the cash, rather than wait to see how the market goes. This problem needs a good deal of further thought by the National Fanners' Unions and ourselves before we can be certain of the right answer. Certainly, one key problem is adequate marketing intelligence on the supply of these grains, the demand for them and their prices, so that we can phase both home and imported supplies.
  The Ministry is now putting out regular and detailed reports every month, and I think that this has been of great benefit to the trade and to the farmers. But the House knows that we import half of our total supplies of grain, and a happy solution of the complex problems of the cereals trade can only be found if all sides will work together, whether they are farmers, importers, compounders and other sections of the trade, or the Government. It is the only way of getting better marketing. Discussions are now going on, and in my view we must try to get the right answer rather than the quick answer which the hon. Gentleman would like.
  966
  There is also the meat marketing problem. The hon. Gentleman referred to the problems which a sudden surplus threw up in 1961. As with cereals, I think that the phasing of our meat supplies is the key to a good deal of this problem.
  We set up the Verdon Smith Committee in April, 1962, and that Committee reported in January of this year. It was looking at all these problems—the phasing, the whole question of fatstock and meat marketing—mainly at home, though obviously the supplies from abroad had to come within its consideration. The House, I am sure, is familiar with the detailed points that this Committee found were weak in our marketing system.
  The central theme again, to my mind, was the lack of market intelligence, as in cereals, and also perhaps, particularly for me, speaking as a Scotsman, a lack of quality specification. The special characteristics of supply and demand in the meat industry led the Verdon Smith Committee to come out strongly against central ownership and trading, which at the time was supported by the National Farmers' Union, and the Committee's reasons for rejecting this seem to the Government to amount to an impressive case which it is difficult to refute.
  The Committee's approach, therefore, was based on these main points, that competition was essential in the meat trade but that it should be made more effective by new and better marketing aids and by promotion and co-ordination of research It recommended that a fat-stock and meat authority should be set up to carry out these and related functions. This would, indeed, be a major step forward, but the Government have, rightly I think, been collecting the views from all the many interests concerned.
  The hon. Member for Workington wants an answer today—or a week ago, or whatever it may be. This Committee took just on two years to look at this extremely complicated problem, and I do not think it is fair that the Government should not be allowed some time to collect the views from the many interests concerned before they make a decision.
  Mr. Peart: But is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there was plenty of information about some of

  967
  the problems discussed by the Verdon Smith Committee? That is really an excuse. May I have a simple answer to my question? Are we to have a statement on the Verdon Smith Committee's recommendations before the General Election?
  Mr. Noble: It depends how the consultations go. Just to explain to the hon. Gentleman the sort of problem, the National Farmers' Unions at one time, as he knows, were backing the complete meat marketing board. The Verdon Smith Committee came down against it. Of course, we knew the problem beforehand, but, naturally, the National Farmers' Union asked at one point for time to consider the problems, because we are dealing with something where 200,000 farmers are contributing in one way or another in respect of fatstock, and a good many of them are the small ones about whom the hon. Gentleman was talking.
  Mr. John Morris: Surely our farmers are entitled to know where the Government stand on this. Are we to understand that the Government have not yet made up their mind whether or not there will be a statement before the General Election?
  Mr. Noble: Of course the farmers are entitled to know where the Government stand. The farmers did not get one iota of policy out of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Equally, the National Farmers' Union, as the representative of the farmers, is perfectly entitled to have extra time to consider this, and it has asked for that from the Government.
  There has been a considerable growth in the contract system which has been growing up recently and which, we think, is a useful step. But do we need perhaps some even more positive steps than the Verdon Smith Committee recommended? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] I think that perhaps we do. If so, do we need an authority, or should we perhaps go for an expansion of producer groups? These are the sort of problems the National Farmers' Union is asking us to consider with it, and we are doing so. The trade is, of course, equally concerned in a very big way.
  If I could sum up our approach on marketing, we believe that individual
  968
  enterprise and the freedom of our traders to exercise their judgment and initiative provide the best assurance that the housewife will be able to obtain the food she wants at reasonable prices. We need a degree of planning and overall management of the market, but we recognise that it is the producers and the traders of this country who are the driving force for the whole of the economy. We should provide a framework within which they can operate to ensure the steady expansion of production and trade which is essential to growth and the rising standards of living we all aim to enjoy.
  When the debate opened, I hoped—I was doubtful about it—that I should get a clear picture of the Opposition's policies. I know that the party opposite has had a good deal to say—not today in the House, but outside it—about commodity commissions and the virtues of long-term contracts. But the Opposition must also, if this is their policy, make clear—I hope today, from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) who will be winding up for them, but certainly very soon—what the duties and responsibilities of these commissions are to be and the extent to which they would take over the functions which the trade performs.
  It is now 17 years since the Lucas Committee put forward the idea of commodity commissions. That was at a time when food supplies were short and a great many people expected the shortages to continue indefinitely. The situation today is totally different in every respect; yet it appears that the Opposition have not advanced their thinking one iota. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If I am wrong, the right hon. Member for Belper—
  Mr. Peart: May I answer the right hon. Gentleman? He has asked me a question.
  Mr. Noble: No; the right hon. Gentleman will be able to do so.
  Mr. Peart: But the right hon. Gentleman has challenged me.
  Mr. Noble: The right hon. Gentleman will be able, I am sure, to clear up all these points for the benefit of the House.
  It is easily said that commodity commissions would co-ordinate home production and imports. But how are they

  969
  to do it? Would they acquire the ownership of the home produce, as the Lucas Committee recommended? What part would they play in the operation of the guarantee system? How extensive would their financial operations be? How far would they be responsible to the Minister and Parliament for the conduct of their operations? These are key questions to which we are entitled to have answers.
  The hon. Member for Workington seemed to have in mind that the commodity commissions would be more concerned with controlling imports and making long-term contracts. Would the commissions tie up the whole of our imports under long-term contracts? How could they forecast exactly what we should need five or 10 years ahead? If the contracts covered only part of our imports, they obviously would not prevent supplies which were not under contract from being attracted to our markets if they proved more remunerative. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Workington wants to answer all these points just now, he can, but I think that he would probably like a few moments just to get his breath. We have already seen that quite small changes in supplies can have a substantial effect on prices in our market, and even where supplies were under contract, they would not be proof against the effects of drought or other natural hazards such as are now affecting our free market.
  The hon. Member for Workington did not tell us anything about the powers to be enjoyed by the commodity commissions in the field of trade. Are they to have such sweeping powers that they will be able to control their respective trades and dictate to meat wholesalers, butchers, millers, bakers, compounders and so on, or are they going to put these people out of business? The House is entitled to know the answers to these points. If the commissions are neither to trade nor to regulate the market, what are they to do? All we are told is that they will co-ordinate production and imports.
  Are they to enter into commercial treaties, negotiating bacon agreements with Denmark, butter agreements with New Zealand or cereal agreements with Canada and the U.S.A.? If the Opposition accept that the vitally important field of commodity policy is the respon-
  970
  sibility of the Government, then their commodity commissions cannot be anything more than merely bodies to give advice to the Minister or agents to act on his behalf.
  These are questions which I am certain need answering, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman who winds up will do his best to address himself to them and take the opportunity which the Opposition themselves have sought, through this debate, to explain to the trades and the agricultural industry what they would intend to impose upon them.
  I shudder to ask the right hon. Gentleman one more point, but perhaps—and I have had many questions on this recently from the farmers—he could tell us what are the Opposition's intentions on the wealth tax. There are many farmers who have 150 or 200 acres and no other assets, and I think that they should be told clearly and frankly where they stand if the wealth tax is part of the Opposition's policy for the future.
  5.1 p.m.
  Mr. T. G. Boston: No one can possibly rise for the first time in the House without some feeling of awe and without being at least a little apprehensive. I think that this is especially so when, as now, a new Member is rising during a somewhat controversial debate. I shall fully understand if any hon. Member feels that anything I say cannot pass without immediate comment. I had hoped that I would be making my maiden speech after the General Election, because I hoped that my predecessor, Mr. Percy Wells, might have been in the House to have heard it. I think it true to say that Percy Wells has been held in very high regard by hon. Members on both sides of the House, and, I think, not only ill high regard but also with some affection. I think that that is even rarer.
  There is no doubt at all, as we in the Faversham constituency know, that he fought very hard for his constituents. Right from the early days after the First World War he fought for the farm workers, and I can remember him telling us of negotiations in which he engaged in which farm workers wages were raised to 9d. an hour. He worked until the end as a member of the Central Agricultural Wages Board and

  971
  took part in the negotiations for the last rise agreed not so long ago.
  I must say, too, that I consider myself fortunate to have had the benefit of spending 2½ years with him and the benefit of his guidance during this time. I think, therefore, that it is appropriate that as his successor I should speak first on agriculture. Percy Wells had also a keen sense of humour, so that I do not think that he would mind if I were to try to establish my right to speak on farming policy by a lighter reference to the Faversham by-election. Hon. Members will remember that the by-election was fought the day after Derby Day. Two days before polling day my principal opponent was rash enough to describe me as the Santa Claus of Faversham. I am not a racing man, but I understand that Santa Claus did win the Derby, and this has left me with an even greater love of animals than I had before and, therefore, a greater desire to speak about agricultural matters.
  Last week also provided an almost irresistible desire to speak for the very same reason in the debate on sport and leisure, and in view of the fact that Santa Claus was an Irish horse it almost persuaded me to speak in the international affairs debate as well. But there is another reason which provided equal grounds for seeking to speak in that debate and this one and that is an interest in Commonwealth agriculture. This is partly because of a close Australian family tie. When speaking in the House about people outside Parliament one has to speak very carefully, but in fact my closest supporter not only campaigned and cooked for me but voted for me as well, a combination that requires remarkable devotion. She happens to be an Australian, and was described by one Sunday newspaper during the by-election as "Labour's Secret Weapon". I can only say that this is one Anglo-Australian venture which got off the launching pad the first time.
  However, to come to more serious matters facing the House, the Faversham constituency is one of just a handful of Labour held constituencies in which the farm vote has been very influential. One of the main points upon which I should like to dwell this afternoon is the need
  972
  to relate farming policy more closely to land policy. In spite of improved techniques which have made land more economical, I think it is true to say that there is a growing shortage of valuable farm land, especially in the South of England, and I think it is important to save as much of this land as possible. It has been said on one occasion that the onus of proof when deciding to use agricultural land for other purposes, as put forward by the Scatt Committee on land utilisation, was that potential alternative users should have to prove that it was in the national interest to use the land for agricultural purposes. but I think that usually the custom since then has been that the agricultural user must prove that it is needed for agricultural purposes rather than the other way round.
  While I think that that is the right onus of proof and the one most commonly followed, I think it is also essential that the agricultural owner gets a fair hearing, but sometimes he does not. It is essential to protect this valuable agricultural land and this is one reason why we in Faversham have been so very disappointed as have others in other parts of Kent that the Isle of Sheppey was left out of the South-East Plan. This affects hon. Members on both sides of the House and people outside the House. The Isle of Sheppey was not even mentioned in the Government's South-East Study. This is an area where there is ample land for industrial and housing development purposes without ruining some of the valuable horticultural and agricultural land in other parts of the area, especially in the Sittingbourne and Faversham districts.
  During the past six or seven weeks some hon. Members on both sides of the House have had an opportunity to find out just where the Isle of Sheppey is, and other hon. Members on both sides of the House have probably also found out not only where it is on the map but that it is on the map. I realise that this matter is not a direct responsibility of the Minister of Agriculture, but I hope he may use his influence with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government to bring to his attention the fact that there is land available on the Isle of Sheppey which by being used for industrial and housing purposes would keep valuable horticultural and

  973
  agricultural land in other parts of Kent much freer from the pressure exercised upon it at the moment.
  I say, too, that the Government owe a duty to the Isle of Sheppey to bring more industrial development there, because the unemployment level has remained around the 6 per cent. mark ever since the closure of the dockyard. I do not intend to dwell upon this matter more this afternoon but rather on the less controversial aspects. I think it is agreed by local people on all sides that there is a need to protect farmland. It was stated in the Kent Development Plan in the paragraph headed "Major urban areas which, from an agricultural standpoint can be expanded" that the Sheerness, Queenborough and Minister area could be developed to the south, south-east and south-west.
  It also said in the paragraph headed "Major Urban Areas to whose expansion there is serious agricultural objection" that these areas should not be expanded, Sittingbourne to the east, south and west and Faversham also to the east, south and west, where there is valuable agricultural land.
  With regard to the part of the plan concerned with agriculture particularly, it said that in the Sittingbourne and Milton vicinity
  "no further material expansion … could easily be justified by a regional planning policy having regard to the very good agricultural land on the periphery of the town and the existence of other centres, such as Sheerness and the Lower Medway complex."
  It further said under a paragraph headed "The North Kent Fruit Belt":
  "These advantages"—
  that is, the advantages of the land—
  "combine to make this the most favoured area in the country"—
  not simply in the county of Kent but in the country—
  "for the production of tree fruit. Cherry and pear orchards predominate with small acreages of soft fruits, hops and market garden crops It is clearly in the national interest that … this unique area should be reserved, without qualification, for agriculture."
  I think that a substantial case has been made out for efforts to be made to see that the pressure is brought off the land in these areas and that the land on Sheppey should be used instead. It is true that this must go hand in hand with a policy to deal with land prices, which have the effect of increasing the
  974
  pressure on agricultural land, and it is something which we had a great deal to talk about on both sides in the by-election campaign.
  The way in which price increases have taken place in the area can be seen from one or two examples. There is the case of a house in the Sittingbourne area which was sold for £4,850 just over two years ago, and just over two months ago it was sold for £5,500—a tremendous increase in a short time. There is another plot of land in Sittingbourne which was bought for £6,000 and three years later, quite recently, it was sold for £0,000. In the nearby outskirts of the town there is a plot of land where barley is now growing. That land cost £1,000 an acre, four times the normal price for agricultural land. This shows that there is likely to be a growing pressure on the land in this area.
  It is true to say that not only in our area but in other areas as well many people pay a quarter of their incomes on mortgages, and it is not surprising, therefore, that people, for instance on our new estates, see some sense in the arguments which the Labour Party has been putting forward in connection with Labour's Crown Land Commission proposal to stabilise land prices. It may be going too far to say that these will bring down land prices, but certainly it is the one plan yet put forward which will have the effect of stabilising land prices.
  One other example which I should like to give concerns a farmer in my area who was saying how difficult it is to get hold of agricultural land. The wife of the farmer told me that they farm 100 acres, which is not a very large farm area, but their son is shortly completing his studies and they want to put him on the farm as well. Unfortunately, it is too small for an extra farmer to manage a complete section of the farm himself, and so they are anxious to get hold of an extra 50 acres. But this cannot be done at the moment. This is one example of the sort of shortages which farmers are finding.
  Here again the Labour Party's plan to relieve farmers, and perhaps especially the more elderly ones, from the burden of land which they cannot manage for one reason or another, by providing them with a good lump sum or an annuity to

  975
  be dealt with by an Agricultural Land Commission would help to remove the difficulty of land which is being held by farmers who do not really want it and so help to provide it for those who really do. I should like to mention one warning about the Agricultural Land Commission. Any land that it acquires, it must sell as soon as possible. This is essential.
  One other matter to which I should like to refer, and one which I have already mentioned, is that Faversham is a very large horticultural area. I have already mentioned cherries, apples, pears, peas and hops in another connection, and I dare say that some hon. Members might prefer hops to some of the other commodities. I should like to ask the Minister about the future of the apple and pear import quota. The Minister is expected to announce shortly the import quotas for next year, and I do not think there is any doubt that farmers are anxious to emphasise that this is the only way to protect top-fruit producers from competition from countries which are inherently capable of producing apples more cheaply than we can in view of our soil, climate and living conditions.
  A considerable number of people in my area have invested a great deal of money in production, storage and packing equipment associated with top-fruit, and I know that they would like to know what proposals the Government have for the long-term future of horticulture. In particular, anxiety is felt amongst the farming community over long-term arrangements. Whilst it is true that in their last agriculture and horticulture Measure the Government provided substantial sums to improve horticultural production and marketing, the question of the extent to which the industry might or might not be swamped with imports has been left open and very uncertain. A long-term assurance would be of extreme value to the farming community.
  There are many other problems connected with agriculture which we could discuss. The only other one to which I should like to refer is that to which my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) has referred, and that is the need to get world food surpluses dealt
  976
  with as a matter of extreme urgency. This is a practical necessity and will be of great value to the developed and developing countries. Another important point is that it appeals to people's sense of idealism, and one cannot always say that about all the matters which are discussed either in this House or elsewhere. This is one of the fundamental problems and one of the biggest issues which will face the next Parliament. It is the duty of this Parliament to hold out hope for what will happen when the new Parliament is elected in October, and I hope that this will be one of the tasks which that Parliament will deal with enthusiastically.
  I may have touched upon some controversial matters in a maiden speech, and it may be unusual, but I think that the importance and value of Parliament is that Members can put forward their views and discuss their own policies sincerely. It is in this spirit, I hope, by putting forward my own views with sincerity, that I have tried to speak in this debate.
  5.18 p.m.
  Mr. R. H. Turton: I should like, on behalf of the whole House, to offer my congratulations to the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Boston). He made a clear and engaging speech and I thought that he well fulfilled our tradition of avoiding controversy. We all remember with affection his predecessor, Mr. Percy Wells, and the way in which he looked after his constituency. I thought that the hon. Gentleman's references to the problems of his constituency fully lived up to the example set by his predecessor. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
  I should like to refer to the hon. Member's closing remarks. I am certain that I speak on behalf of both sides of the House when I say that the biggest problem for the next five years will be the world food problem. This was touched on by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), though he had forgotten that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development and President of the Board of Trade had put forward 11 points at Geneva to the United Nations, presenting Her Majesty's Government's policy on this very problem. I hope that we will not have to wait until October

  977
  for further developments. After all, the Commonwealth Prime Ministers are coming here very shortly—at the beginning of July. I hope that the Government will discuss with them these problems of the stabilisation of commodity prices, the disposal of surpluses and a way of helping developing countries to get an income from their produce.
  I want to concentrate my remarks on the question of meat. During the Whit-sun Recess a number of speeches were made by members of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition said,
  "Meat policy is in total disarray."
  He was speaking in Inverness on 23rd May. Although the right hon. Gentleman thought that meat policy was in total disarray, he has not troubled to come to this debate. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling), who is present today, wrote in the Co-operative News:
  "The meat trade is completely chaotic. No one knows what is going on. Farmers, importers, wholesalers, and traders have to guess."
  It was clear from the speech today of the hon. Member for Workington that he did not know what was going on in the meat trade.
  Mr. George Darling: Mine was precisely the same statement—in different words, but with the same meaning—as that made by the Secretary of State for Scotland this afternoon. My plea was for a marketing information service. That is precisely what the Secretary of State wants.
  Mr. Turton: I am not sure that that is what my right hon. Friend wants, but the hon. Member for Hillsborough said that the meat trade was chaotic. In fact, the meat trade is doing an extremely good job—far better than that done in any other country. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), who is to wind up the debate, said:
  "We are in this jam about our meat supplies because of the policy the Government pursues."
  After that blast from the Whitsuntide beaches, the N.F.U. publication, The British Farmer, stated:
  "Now that the top brass of the Labour Party has taken up the meat cudgels and uttered war-like cries about the total disarray of the Government's policy it is morally bound or politically obliged to lay about Mr. Soames next week in the Commons."
  978
  That was 30th May. Nothing happened. Hon. Members opposite have forgotten about the meat trade being in disarray. The hon. Member for Workington had very little to say today about the meat problem and still less to say about how the Opposition would deal with it.
  We should have been in total disarray over meat and in chaos if the Government had not pursued many years ago a policy to increase supplies of beef in this country. The three steps which they took were, first, to increase the guaranteed price from 106s. in 1951 to 170s. this year; secondly, to bring in the Farm Improvement Scheme, which has provided the buildings, especially the yards, for the production of more meat; and, thirdly, to introduce the hill cattle subsidy scheme, with the result that we now have more cattle on the hills.
  The hon. Member for Workington quoted a criticism which I made of Government policy. But that was about four years ago when I was complaining that the Government's policy on guaranteed prices, good as it was, was bound to be incomplete unless it dealt with imports. The hon. Member no doubt had forgotten that last year the Government dealt with that. I do not say that they accepted my advice, but we now have a policy for more production at home with some control of imports. [Interruption.] I know that the hon. Gentleman will be making a speech later. If he would make his remarks then, I will listen to him in silence.
  As a result of the Government's policy, there has been a remarkable transformation in the beef position, and it is well to have it on the record. In the first four months of 1951, British agriculture was producing 140,000 tons of beef and veal. From January to April, this year it produced 330,000 tons. That is a tremendous increase in 13 years. The prospects for the future show that there should be an even greater increase because in 1951 the number of cattle below one year was about the 2 million mark. The last figure available, for June, 1963, shows that the number is just below the 3 million mark. I agree that some of those cattle will be going into the dairy industry, but there is the prospect and

  979
  possibility of greater beef production in this country.
  In 1951, 58 per cent. of our total supplies of beef were home produced. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland said today, last year we produced 73 per cent. of our total supplies. This has happened at a time when there has been a decrease in beef supplies throughout the world. It is interesting to note that last year nearly all the continental countries were producing less meat. The reports say that in France less meat was produced and that they have had to decrease their exports by 36 per cent. In Italy less meat has been produced. The demand is growing steadily and Italian imports last year went up by 170,000 tons. In West Germany last year numbers went down by 250,000 head, and they are having to import. In Austria there was a drop of 5 per cent., and the number of cattle are down in Denmark.
  We are to be congratulated, especially the farmers—and I think that the Government should take a certain share of the credit—in having brought about this revolution in beef production, out we must realise that there will be need for a further increase in beef production in this country for some time ahead. There will be a general meat shortage. That is nothing to be ashamed of. As the developing countries obtain a higher standard of living, they are turning to eating beef. Countries on the ranching type of meat production, as is carried out in the Argentine, tend to turn to dairy farming. Therefore, we cannot expect large imports of beef in the next few years. My right hon. Friend is perfectly right to try to get a phased agreement so that we have regular imports, but we cannot again expect to reach a beef import figure of 390,000 tons as was the case in the early part of the 1950s. We should be thinking about how we can put the matter right.
  At the moment we are importing roughly 500,000 store cattle a year, chiefly from Ireland. With the continual rise in meat prices throughout the world, and with the developments in Southern Irish farming, I doubt very much whether that store cattle trade will continue. We vitally need stores. How can we increase
  980
  the production of store cattle in this country?
  I notice in "Agra Europe", a paper on continental farming, that the French statistical service put out inquiries to a selection of dairy farmers in France asking them why they had chosen dairy farming rather than beef farming, and that the reason which was tabulated was that in 75 per cent. of the cases it was because they got more regular receipts out of milk than out of beef. I believe that this is the key to the problem. Take the farmer on the uplands. He is in milk because he has a small amount of capital and he needs regular payments, and therefore he has to rely on his monthly cheque.
  I would say to my right hon. Friend that if he could devise some way of giving the small farmer regular advance payments on his store cattle I believe that by this means he would do more than by any other to get our position right, so that we did not have shortages of meat and, indeed, could increase our beef production still further than we are doing at the present day.
  The other worry I have is that—if I am right that the key to the whole of this problem of an increase in beef production rests on the quantity of our store cattle—we have got to realise that the kind of intensive beef production which many of us practise today, particularly in producing 8 cwt. worth of "barley" beef in 11 months, is not really economic for the nation, when we remember that if that animal went on traditional feeding we should be getting 12 cwt. in probably two and a half years. It looks economic, through getting a quicker turnover, but so long as we have a shortage of store cattle we really ought to be encouraging people to produce heavier weights over the longer period. In that way we should get more meat out of the quantity of cattle available. I see the hon. Gentleman smiling.
  Mr. Charles Royle: I was smiling, and I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon, but I was wondering how in butchers' shops one could serve some modern customers who want 2½ lb. of sirloin out of 15 cwt. cattle.
  Mr. Turton: What we are dealing with is the Friesian animal. It can produce beef in 11 months but otherwise it is

  981
  no good till the animal is two and a half years old; two and a half year old steers are saleable but not so economic to feed.
  However, I shall leave that there giving my right hon. Friend the thought whether he can give greater encouragement to produce heavier weights over the longer term.
  My other point is on the question of Australian meat. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Workington talked rather glibly about how he would like to have long-term contracts with Australia. Do let us remember that at present any meat which we get from Australia can only be for the manufacturing trade in this country. The ordinary housewife certainly would not like the 15 cwt. beef cattle the hon. Gentleman the Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle) was talking about. Nor would she like to eat Australian frozen meat. I believe that Australia has a great future in helping us over our meat problem and that what we must try to get is chilled meat coming from Australia.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend, when he winds up this debate, will let us know if there is any hope of any arrangements with shipping companies for developing the "chiller" trade with Australia. Australia is sending meat to America for manufacture, but I believe Australia to be anxious to develop a quality meat trade with Britain, if she can get the refrigeration space in ships for the purpose.
  Broadly, I think that the future of our beef industry depends on the farmers of Britain. They have done well in the past. They must be encouraged to do even better in the future. I notice that the Verdon Smith Report was talking of what I believe to be the best development for the marketing of beef—by contract. Whilst the Report put in qualifications, it recommended that the authority should set out model contracts. I think that is one of the matters that my right hon. Friend and the Ministry might be thinking about even now, trying to suggest model contracts for the contracting of beef, because I believe that the contract system is the way to get right the amount and quality of beef produced, with close consultation between the buyer and the producer. It works well
  982
  already, and many of the large firms in Smithfield are doing it. I believe that if it were extended to farmers and groups of farmers the better our beef would be, and the smaller would be the difference in price between the producer's price and the market price.
  I want to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the policy which he has developed, following the 1947 Act, in the 1957 Act and in the 1964 Act. The policy has had very great success in all branches of agriculture, but especially the one I have been talking about, particularly today. Nothing shocked me more in the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Workington than when he said that in his view neither the 1947 Act nor the 1957 Act was sacrosanct.
  5.37 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Davies: The House has listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), bat I regret that it did not match the level of the debate as a whole, and that he so departed from his usual level. He sought to score a debating point about the criticism of the meat trade. No matter who uttered the criticism, the facts are there. The complexity of the trade and the chaotic state of the trade are all set out in this Blue Book, and no matter who makes the criticism, whether a Conservative, Liberal or Labour Member of Parliament, the actual stark reality of the British meat trade is that it is chaotic.
  The Verdon Smith Report, on page 208, says:
  "The auction system is a complex mixture of a competitive marketing system and a routine with social and economic side-effects which play a part in the life of the countryside and small towns Slaughterhouses, particularly in England and Wales, have been affected by considerable oscillations"—
  which is a euphemism for chaos in the slaughterhouses—
  "in Government policy over the last 25 years. Imports are a significant proportion of supplies and also a significant element in the economics of the main meat exporting countries."
  Let us cut out the hyperbole of politicians on political rostrums. If the meat trade is in a difficult position the right hon. Gentleman has to find an answer for it, and I believe that we on

  983
  this side of the House are justified in criticising the Government, who are proud of the fact that they have been in power for thirteen years. We are justified in saying that the position is more chaotic than ever it was before, and has become so especially since this Government have been in power.
  Let us take another economic fact about meat and this time look at the Annual Review and Determination of Guarantees, 1964, Cmnd. 2315. The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton knows what he is speaking about, never mind his quips. From the graphs on page 19 of this document, we see that even less meat is imported from abroad than pre-war. The 64-dollar question for our farmers who produce is, what share of the market are they entitled to?
  This is our constructive criticism of the Conservative Government. Somewhere, some day, somebody must come to the conclusion what proportion of the gross national product is to be devoted to agriculture. Is it to be 4, 4½ or 3 per cent.? That difference of ½ or 1 per cent. when playing with small farmers up in the hills or on the uplands, even the dairy farmer and the big people, can be chaotic in its effect upon individuals.
  Are the Government taking a kind of che sarà sarà or manana attitude that if we have a gentle euthanasia of the small farmers—in Leek, on the uplands of Wales and elsewhere—bit by bit, while farm income may go up, people who traditionally have devoted their lives to agriculture will be told what to do by arid economists, like those who produce such erudite documents for the Institute of Economic Affairs, to which I am a subscriber, and who write articles oozing with intellectuality and completely lacking the earthy wisdom of the good old English farmer.
  I turn to this weighty document—pedantic, verbose, tautological and weighty with economic platitudes.
  Mr. Julian Snow: Otherwise, it is all right?
  Mr. Davies: At page 58, after looking at certain reports, we are told:
  "Such a reform would create the economic and legal environment"—
  984
  Fancy having to stick in about the legal environment when thinking about milking a cow or taking a boar to the sow!
  "Such a reform would create the economic and legal environment within which a more efficient, a more vigorous, independent and prosperous agriculture can develop, because it will be more securely based on service to free consumers than on uncertain alms from harassed, capricious and importunate politicians."
  If that is supposed to be balanced writing in referring to the problem of agriculture, my name is not what it is as the hon. Member for Leek.
  My criticism is that we are having so many people writing books about farming who are not really in the job and who are not working and rubbing up against the facts of farming. They produce blueprints from their swivel chairs. We get so many of them that the advice of the people on the job is often neglected. Outside the type of advice that we get from the National Farmers' Union, we must remember that much more advice should be taken from the small farmer before we decide that it is uneconomic to keep the small farmer going. We all know that the small farmer has suffered. If I had my way in my party, the Motion would have been ten times rougher than it is. It is in too gentlemanly language.
  I accuse the party opposite of messing about with agriculture for two years. Agriculture is at a standstill. As the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) does not have my copy of the Tory Party policy which he is after, I will quote from page 19 of "Agriculture and the Nation". This is done in green, which is a good colour for the Tory Party these days. On page 19, it states:
  "The European Economic Community has also emphasised that trade policy in agricultural products should take into account not only internal agricultural considerations, but also the need to maintain trade with third countries. This is a liberal approach with which we fully agree and would like to see implemented in practice,"
  What we and the British farmer want to know is where the party opposite stands at the General Election on the Common Market and whether that party will put into its election manifesto its aim to get into the Common Market. We are entitled to know.
  My accusation against the party opposite, who are turning out pamphlets

  985
  down Victoria Street—there is one yammering pamphlet, ululating—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] "Ululating" is Parliamentary, although my feet may not be. We are entitled to know. The British public were entitled to know how much the party opposite would mess about British agriculture in its five years of stolen power. It did not tell the British farmer, in Leek or in Wales, the Welshman or the Scotsman, that after a certain period of power it intended to go into discussions leading, if it could, to the Common Market without consulting the electorate.
  In one of the greatest changes in the history of the British people and British agriculture, one of the greatest changes in the history of our relationship with the Commonwealth and one of the greatest changes in the relationship of our country with Europe—namely, the Common Market—not a word came out of the party opposite at the last General Election.
  Tonight, I am asking, will the party opposite go to Faversham, Leek, Cornwall and the rural areas and be square with the public and say, "If you put us into power for the next five years, we, the Tory Government, are taking you into the Common Market"? I want an answer tonight.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: But the hon. Member will not get it.
  Mr. Davies: Let us have no weak answers to the fiddling little questions that hon. Members opposite have been asking. They are the bunch, on the benches opposite, who have the experts behind them. If they want statistics, they can get them. They have computers to serve them. They can add up all the little sums and then come with the answers off the back of the arithmetic book—and half of them are wrong, anyway.
  This is the challenge here tonight from this side of the House. The Labour movement—and, much more important than the Labour movement, the British people—want to know what the party opposite will do with British agriculture if it gets into power for the next five years. If the Tories intend taking us into the Common Market, let them put it in black and white in their election manifesto and fight on the rostrums on
  986
  this issue concerning agriculture. I will give way if any hon. Member opposite wants to give me the answer. There is one hon. Member who is usually rude, the hon. Member for Exeter (Sir R. Dudley Williams), who is muttering with his finger halfway down his throat. I will sit down if he will answer. I am accustomed to his mutterings.
  There is no difference between the two sides of the House about the need for Exchequer support. The questions are how much support, to what it is to be related and what responsibilities it is to entail. One of the responsibilities is that the consumer must have a fair deal. More effort should be made to explain to the British public that the support is not given away, but is only money moved from one pocket to another, because of the £400 million a year which is saved in balance of payments. If it were not for these support prices, these food stakes would have to be bought overseas. By operating in this manner, we keep the country healthy and in good husbandry, and, if it should ever be needed strategically, agriculture is one of the most important lines of our defence.
  Let us get rid of the silly idea, which is sometimes put forward when subsidies are paid out, that they are money down the drain. There must be checks on them by the Estimates Committee and the Public Accounts Committee, for taxpayers have to be protected from the rapacity of those who might try to fiddle; but the impression that the farming community is swindling Exchequer grants and subsidies is a travesty of the facts, for 99·99 per cent. of the farmers are taking their subsidies justly and without any effort to cheat the public.
  The one man left is the little farmer, who is standing with his back to the barn. As he generally does, the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton again said much with which the House agreed when he said that if we could find a means of getting something similar to the milk cheque going into the pocket of the livestock man, we would make a major change in his traditional position. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle), who is a butcher, that the pattern of eating has altered. Whereas my grandfather would eat a whole leg, nowadays what is wanted is a dainty little joint for the

  987
  wenches of today. They do not want great legs of meat, for there are no longer the great families. The meat trade has to cater for the modern kind of family.
  There is no quarrel between us about the necessity for having standard quantities. We have to find a formula and the use of standard quantities was the method adopted in the 1947 Act. When hon. Members opposite talk about White Papers and bureaucracy, they should remember the minimum import prices and levy arrangements for cereals which are used by the Ministry of Agriculture and all the forms that such work entails. There are many forms to be filled in giving details of registration, prices and so on.
  But if a Minister is to try to regulate supplies and to get a fair share of imports balanced with a reasonable share of home production, then, no matter how much the economists and journalists may scoff, forms and papers have to be produced in this complex society in which we now live. I know how difficult it it, but I ask that as soon as possible the Minister should project his policy and put a plan before the farmers and hon. Members so that we can debate production of cereals and livestock.
  The Bacon Agreement, Cmnd. 2318, is to come into force on 1st April. We are producing 615,000 tons a year with a reserve capacity of 2,500. Has the Parliamentary Secretary any information to give the House about the Bacon Marketing Board and how it is likely to work? Can he say whether the Bacon Agreement looks like being a success? The Agreement is among ourselves Denmark, Poland, Hungary, the Irish Republic, the Netherlands, Sweden, Northern Ireland and Yugoslavia. I believe that it can give a chance to our pig and bacon producers.
  I have spoken long enough and, although there are three other points which I want to make, out of fairness to my colleagues and opponents I shall shortly sit down. However, before doing so I should like to suggest that the forestry programme be linked with upland areas, which small farmers look like leaving. By the end of the century, we could have 10 million acres of forestry—our present ambition is 5 million acres. With 10 million acres,
  988
  we would have a 60-year rotation with the conifers being thinned out every 20 years. In cubic feet, Hoppus measure, our conifer production could be twice as good as Germany's and four times as good as Finland's.
  For a century we have neglected our forestry programme. Its value can be seen in Scotland and in the North-East and in Liverpool in the production of hardboard and plywood. Whatever party is in power after the General Election, it should plan timber production for the next 40 years. By the end of the century, 500,000 people could be employed in forestry. I do not want to spin it out now, but I hope that at some time the Minister will consider a rapid expansion of our forestry programme which in some upland areas could take the place of small farming.
  Finally, there was an interesting suggestion in this week's issue of the Farmers' Weekly. It is only a small suggestion, but it could earn a lot of money for upland farmers and for areas round the Welsh lakes. Only a small amount of money would be required for research and this could easily be undertaken by a university. The research might cost only about £2,000. Those of us who have travelled in the Far East have seen fish bred in paddy fields in China and throughout the South-East of Asia right down to Indonesia so that the peoples of these areas have their proteins, rice and carbohydrates. Could we not expand fishing in some upland areas where the streams are still fresh and clean, and in this way work against pollution? Schemes like this, and especially forestry, must be considered for upland areas. In these areas modern farming as we now know it is becoming increasingly difficult.
  I conclude by repeating my accusation that the Government have neglected British agriculture, especially for the last two years, by messing about with the Common Market to the detriment of British farmers.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. David Ronton: The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) said that there were too many people writing books about agriculture, but I thought that that was a rather ungenerous complaint, because if he had

  989
  not read and quoted them so eloquently the House of Commons would have been the loser.
  I was so entranced by the hon. Gentleman's phrases, gestures, and fine footwork that I did not get completely the thread of everything he said. I gathered, however, that he wants to know where we stand on the Common Market. He will no doubt get a very good answer to that, but I think that we are entitled to know where the Socialist Party stands on the question of nationalisation, which is a much more immediate threat if there is any possibility, which I hope there is not, of the other side winning the next General Election.
  The hon. Gentleman also referred to the small farmer, and here I strike a note of sympathy with what he said, because I probably have as many small farmers in my constituency as there are in any farming constituency in the country, because the Huntingdonshire County Council has the largest smallholding estate in the country. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that in any farming policy the interests of the small farmers must be considered, and preferably a good many of the small farmers themselves need to be consulted.
  But, having said all that, I think that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) made a major mistake in their speeches, because when nearly everything is going so well in farming and the outlook for the future is as healthy as it is today, speeches like the two to which I have referred do not ring true. What is more, it makes it rather easy for us on this side to draw comparisons between things as they are and the dismal state of affairs which the Opposition would like to see, but cannot with such a successful Minister of Agriculture as we have.
  The same may be said of the Opposition's Motion which regrets the failure to produce an effective long-term policy. This is just playing politics with farming. We have the 1957 Act with its long-term guarantees, which was not only a welcome blessing when it was introduced, but—and I think that we should bear this in mind—to the great benefit of the farmers the Government have kept well within its limits and have not made anything like the full use of its power to reduce guaranteed prices which that
  990
  Act gives. Now we have the 1964 Act with import controls and minimum import prices linked with commodity agreements, and we are entering a phase which gives even better long-term prospects.
  I congratulate my hon. Friend on his success in getting this policy going. It was much needed and it has great possibilities. Indeed, one splendid thing about it is that it can be used to achieve further expansion in our farming industry if the policy is applied in the right way.
  In some circles "expansion" is a controversial word when applied to farm production. When applied to anything else it is regarded as sheer necessity, and I have never understood the reason for these two different attitudes. I am glad to say that farm production has increased by more than 20 per cent. since 1951, and that it is now running at more than 80 per cent. above the pre-war level and is still rising. I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland point out that we are now producing 70 per cent. of our own beef.
  The expansion which has taken place so far has been due to three things: first, capital injected by the Government on behalf of the taxpayers; secondly, increased efficiency of our farmers; and, thirdly—and this is sometimes overlooked—greater output by our farm workers. The British farm worker helps to feed 30 people a year, whereas the Russian farm worker by comparison feeds only five people a year.
  During the last eight years British farming has increased its output faster than any industry has done, and I dread to think how our balance of payments would have suffered if we had not had that expansion in farm production. I was glad to understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that that expansion will continue, and here I come to the rather pertinent question asked by the hon. Member for Leek, who wanted to know what proportion of the gross national product would be devoted to agriculture. I put it another way. How much further expansion should be aimed at and encouraged in the years to come?
  I hope that we shall have the largest possible further expansion in farm production and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he has fresh fields yet to

  991
  conquer, but his battle will probably be in Whitehall. Guns may be tired in Fleet Street, but farmers will be cheering him from the shires.
  The Liberal Party will perhaps on this occasion sit on the fence, but that will be a change—
  Mr. Thorpe: Like the National Liberals.
  Mr. Renton: No. We are very firm allies. But sitting on the fence for the Liberal Party will be a change from its previous habit of fighting on both sides where farming is concerned. The Labour Party would be so keen to get things planned that expansion would be left to chance.
  I have four reasons for advocating maximum further expansion, and this is all that I want to talk about in my short speech. First, it is a good thing in itself. Farming is still our largest industry by any criterion that we can apply—the number of people employed in it, the capital sunk in it, the total value of its product, or whichever yardstick is used. Surely it is best that it should flourish like other industries do in the modern world, and it can flourish fully only if it expands continuously and considerably.
  My second reason is economic. We live in a highly competitive world and one which is becoming more so. We have had numerous balance of payments scares and even crises since the war, some of which might have been avoided altogether if we had relied less on food imports and more on our own capacity. I therefore suggest that the aim should be to enable our farm industry to make the greatest possible contribution to our economic strength, and this goes back to the question put by the hon. Member for Leek.
  I am familiar with the arguments of those who say that we must import so that we can export. Exports are, of course, vital, but foreign markets are competitive and uncertain, and I doubt the wisdom in the long term of basing our economic stability and prosperity on the assumption that exports and imports should always be the overriding economic factor, and that farming should fit in as best it can. Surely it
  992
  would be best to consider, first, what maximum contribution can be made by our greatest industry, always provided, of course, that it is operating efficiently and economically.
  My third reason is that our population is increasing very rapidly, and the main demands made by a growing population are for food and for houses. They are conflicting demands and I was rather interested in the remark of the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Boston), in his very interesting maiden speech, when he said that we need to link farming policy more closely with land policy, and I would add with population policy, too.
  In considering how to feed our people in future, we need to consider the long-term implications, and this brings me back to the economic argument. If the terms of trade should turn against us at some time in the future, and not remain as relatively favourable as they are now, and look like remaining for the rest of this decade, we or those who follow us will have a tough job feeding our increased population in the years to come. But this can be provided against or mitigated if in the meanwhile the Government have embarked on a policy of maximum continuous expansion of food production here.
  My fourth reason—which I need mention only briefly, because it has already been discussed—is that we should make our proper contribution towards solving the world food problem. We can do it either by exporting some of our own food to the needy countries, or by making ourselves as nearly independent of food imports as we can. I know that we have a long way to go, but that is a contribution that we could make, and that is a further reason why we should aim at a policy of continuous considerable expansion of farm production.
  Therefore, although I congratulate my right hon. Friend—and I do it most warmly, as a neighbour, and as a colleague in the House—and I wish him well, I express the hope that he will agree in principle to a policy which gives the highest priority to agricultural expansion. I am glad that under the 1964 Act he has taken powers which will make this possible to a very great extent.
  6.11 p.m.
  Mr. A. V. Hilton: I agree entirely with many of the points made by the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton). I agree with what he said about small farmers, and the necessity to consult them. I also agree with his last point, about maximum continuous expansion. I disagree with him on some of his facts, but I am in general agreement with him.
  I am pleased that my party has made it possible for us to have this debate.
  Mr. Thorpe: Hear hear.
  Mr. Hilton: I am glad to have Liberal support.
  Agriculture is an important industry; indeed, to many hon. Members it is our most important industry. Nevertheless, although requests have been made by hon. Members from both sides of the House—and in particular from hon. Members opposite—the Leader of the House has consistently refused to allow Government time for a debate on this industry. I therefore thank my own party for making the debate possible.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House are agreed that, especially since the war, agriculture has a splendid production record. There is no need to elaborate it. Since the war production has increased by about 86 per cent., and less than 4 per cent. of our total employed population produce about 50 per cent. of our food. We can all be proud of this record, especially since it has been achieved at a time when the labour force has been continually running down. In fact, since the war it has fallen by 200,000. I regard agriculture as not only our oldest but our most important industry, with an annual output of £1,800 million.
  My hon. Friends and I believe that people who invest their money and labour in agriculture are entitled to as good a return as is obtained by those who invest their money and labour in other industries. There can be no doubt what an important job is done in the production of food, as compared with some of the articles produced by other industries.
  Many of those who invest their money in food production, and, certainly, those
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  who invest their labour in it, are not getting a fair deal. I am sorry that the Secretary of State for Scotland is not here now, because his last question to my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr Peart) concerned a wealth tax on farmers. I can give an effective reply to that question. I have here a booklet issued by the National Farmers' Union, which sets out farm incomes for last year. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman is very familiar with it.
  The 1947 Agriculture Act has been mentioned more than once this afternoon. Earlier, its architect was in the Gallery, listening to the opening speeches. The objective of that great Act was to provide proper remuneration and living conditions for farmers and farm workers, and an adequate return for investors in the industry. Until the return of a Conservative Government, in 1951, there was undoubtedly general satisfaction among farmers and farm workers, but it is generally agreed that since then there has been a gradual deterioration.
  The little booklet to which I have referred, entitled "Farm Incomes, The Facts", tells us that last year two out of every five farmers earned less than £600 and two out of every three less than £1,000.
  Sir Richard Glyn: I understood that the hon. Gentleman was replying, in part, to a question asked by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland concerning the wealth tax pro-nosed by some hon. Members opposite. The hon. Gentleman appeared to confine his remarks to income, but some people think that the wealth tax should apply to capital. Does the hon. Member agree with that?
  Mr. Hilton: The question put by the Secretary of State for Scotland referred to a wealth tax, and he talked of farmers farming up to 200 acres. The farmers to whom I have referred all farm less than 200 acres. The inference is plain for everybody to see: in many cases there is insufficient for these small farmers to live on, never mind their being able to pay a wealth tax.
  If further evidence is needed, I should point out that it is only just over a year ago that farmers from Norfolk

  995
  came to the House to lobby their Members of Parliament, and the main plank of their complaint against the Government was that their incomes were so low that they did not get sufficient to pay their farm workers the wage that they were entitled to. Because the Minister refused to see the farmers I was deputed to hand him a petition signed by hundreds of Norfolk farmers.
  The Parliamentary Secretary will recall that only last week I showed him a letter I had received from a small farmer constituent of mine who stated quite clearly that the £70 which is in dispute between him and the Ministry represented the difference between his swimming and sinking. Many small farmers are in a similar situation. After the latest Farm Price Review we know that many farmers were very dissatisfied.
  The Government Amendment gives the impression that agriculture is a prosperous industry. It talks about "continuing prosperity in agriculture." This is one of the things that I fail to understand. When the average income of small farmers is £795 a year we cannot regard them as prosperous, in these days. Obviously, farmers with such small incomes are not enjoying prosperity. It is not unknown for many many small farmers to be "gobbled up" by their big brothers.
  Another indication of the lack of prosperity in the industry is the disinclination of youngsters to take advantage of the agricultural apprenticeship schemes. Norfolk is an important agricultural county, but there hardly any young people are prepared to join the scheme. The same thing applies in many other counties.
  I am glad that the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire paid such a glowing tribute to the farm workers. The Secretary of State for Scotland did not bother to mention them. The farm workers have played an important part in agricultural production. Here I must declare an interest as I am honorary vice-president of the National Union of Agricultural Workers. The tribute of the right hon. and learned Gentleman was one of many which have been paid to the efforts of farm workers. It is all very well to pay such tributes, but they do not fill hungry bellies.
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  The national minimum wage for farm workers is still only £9 10s. a week and for many it is also the maximum. All hon. Members will agree that that is a miserable pittance for workers in an industry which hon. Members opposite maintain is so prosperous. If the industry is as prosperous as they say, the small farmers and the farm workers whom I represent are not getting their fair share of that prosperity and should have better treatment.
  There is a difference in the average earnings of farm workers and industrial workers amounting to £4 10s. to the disadvantage of farm workers. I am not saying that the industrial workers receive too much, but I say emphatically that farm workers get far too little. It was reported only last week that the average family income is about £22 a week. To the farm worker an income of £22 a week would be like living in fairyland. I think that I have proved by the figures which I have quoted that, if the agriculture industry is so prosperous, the farm workers who do such a good job in helping to produce that prosperity are not getting their fair share of the prosperity.
  Farm workers are still subject to the tied cottage system. I know that hon. Members opposite do not like to mention that. Only three weeks ago a family in my constituency, a father, mother and four children, were turned out of a tied cottage and had nowhere to go. Most fair-minded people would agree that in the year 1964 such a state of affairs should never be allowed. I am glad that the Labour Party, which will form the next Government, has given a definite assurance that under a Labour Government no farm worker will be turned out of a tied cottage until a suitable alternative accommodation has been provided.
  I wish to know what are the proposals of the Government for the future of small farmers and I recall what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) about the undoubted intention of the Government, a couple of years ago, to take this country into the Common Market. Had that happened, it would have been the end for thousands of our small farmers. The Labour Party believes that the efficient small farmers who have played such an important part in the history of the industry, have an important part to play in the future and that they should be encouraged.

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  I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will note that I wish his right hon. Friend to take up with the Chancellor of the Exchequer the question of Purchase Tax on blackcurrant juice. Blackcurrant crops are grown mainly by small farmers. Because of the imposition of this tax a great many people who previously produced such crops now find it unprofitable to do so. Any relief in this direction would be much appreciated.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House, including my hon. Friend the Member for Workington have referred to the World Health Bank. Despite our record production figures, I think it possible for even more food to be produced by our farmers. In the Western world we have food surpluses and in other parts of the world millions of people are starving. I do not believe it impossible for a country such as ours, where £2,000 million a year are spent on defence, to find a means to divert food surpluses to areas where that food is so urgently needed.
  I support the pleas which have been made for such a course of action and I hope that the Minister will agree that something should be done along these lines.
  6.28 p.m.
  Sir James Duncan: The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton) began by trying to defend his party on the subject of a capital wealth tax. I do not think that he gave the answer to the question which we want answered. We are told by his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) that there will be a wealth tax imposed on all capital sums of over £20,000. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland quoted a figure of 200 acres per farm at £100 an acre capital value. That adds up to £20,000. We wish to know whether a wealth tax would be applied to farms. Perhaps my right hon. Friend and I may receive an answer to that question from the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) if he replies for the Opposition. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), who is at present occupying the Opposition Front Bench, will make a note that the Secretary of State for Scotland and I would like a balanced and fair answer to that question.
  The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West welcomed the fact that there is a
  998
  debate today on farming. So do 1, first because this probably will be the last opportunity I shall have to address this House on farming, or on anything else, and secondly, because there seemed to be some doubt in the minds of hon. Members on the Front Bench opposite about whether they wanted a debate on farming. In fact we had to provoke them two or three weeks ago when Questions about meat were being asked. We asked whether it would be possible to have a debate on farming and the Opposition were completely silent.
  The Opposition Motion says:
  "That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to produce an effective long-term policy for British agriculture."
  I shall try to answer that. Before doing so, I wish to refer to two strange things which were said by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart). In an incautious moment he hinted that the 1947 Act, the Bible of the Labour Party, needed revision. I agree that Section 1 of that Act gives immense discretion to any Government to advocate and arrange such volume of production as they think to be in the national interest to be produced and it is worded in a very wide phrase. If we are to revise that, we should know in what way it is to be done. I cannot believe that the hon. Member would be such a traitor to Lord Williams that he would ever dare to suggest that consciously. I think he must have been done in an aside semi-consciously in the state of excitement he gets into sometimes.
  Secondly, and certainly more seriously, he was prepared to advocate five-year guarantees. I am all in favour of the longest term for guarantees as is possible but let us consider the question of pigs. The pig is such a prolific animal that if we based the guarantee in the year 1964 on 11,750,000 pigs and that was just enough to tip the scale for increased pig production and then continued the guarantee for five years, the whole country would be smothered in pigs. The Treasury would have to go on paying. These are the sort of practical points which are extremely difficult to organise five years ahead. We can do that kind of thing in relation to some things but not for all.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton) talked about expansion. I agree

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  with him that we want to expand, but in what? Are we to expand in egg production? As the years go by, according to the Egg Marketing Board, there will be an increase in the laying flock. What shall we do about that? Do we want to encourage expansion in egg production? If so, what are we to do about the guarantees? These are one or two difficulties about giving five-year guarantees. I suggest that the hon. Member for Workington was talking through his hat when he talked like that in a serious debate such as this, which will be read by farmers throughout the country in an effort to penetrate the inner secrets of Labour agriculture policy before the election.
  What is our policy? I shall try briefly to show that there is and has been an effective long-term policy in British agriculture. As has been said already, we want stability. On that I refer to paragraph 3 of the Annual Review, which says:
  "In formulating such arrangements, the Government's aim has been to secure a greater degree of stability in the market."
  As the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) said, we want a balance between imports and home production. Paragraph 4 says:
  "The Government's objective has also been to maintain a fair and reasonable balance between home production and imports, starting from broadly the present proportions of our market which are supplied from home production and imports."
  This is already laid down in the Price Review which was published last March.
  It is said that the farmers want an increased share of the market. I turn to paragraph 7 and I read:
  "the Government intend to provide British farmers, and also overseas suppliers, with the opportunity of securing a fair share in the growth of the market. The Government intend to increase the levels of the standard quantities as required to provide this opportunity for home producers in the future."
  The effective policy is there.
  We want a share in the general prosperity of the country. I read in paragraph 11:
  "In the light of these objectives and considerations it will be the Government's intention, subject to consideration of all the relevant factors at each Annual Review, to make such determinations as will advance these objectives and provide the opportunity for
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  agricultural producers to share in the growing prosperity of the community generally."
  The Review also says that in view of this it will be possible in future because of the new arrangements
  "to give greater weight to farmers' returns than would have been possible in the absence of such arrangements".
  There is an effective policy, one with which we can go into the future with confidence. I entirely reject the terms of the Motion and I support the Amendment.
  I have mentioned eggs. I want to add one more thing about future policy. We are now exporting in one way or another about £48 million to £50 million of agricultural produce a year.
  Sir John Maitland: More than that.
  Sir J. Duncan: It was about £50 million last year. It is quite a considerable sum. Figures have been given for cattle, horses, grain and so on. I forget the actual details. This year we have exported eggs to our troops in Germany. We have opportunities for selling pedigree stock in far greater quantities than before to countries such as Russia and Czechoslovakia. At the moment there is a Czechoslovakian delegation looking at animals in Scotland. Resulting sales-may not amount to a large sum, but this all helps.
  One of the biggest difficulties in the past has been that although under the G.A.T.T. it has been possible to export provided no one complained, if anyone complained because of the subsidy element in the export we had to stop. If we are to have the Kennedy Round again, that part of the general arrangements for lowering taxes, even though we keep our subsidies on to protect the standard of life of our farmers, should be dealt with in such a way as to allow us to export in the ordinary commercial sense to other countries where there is a need.
  This is quite separate from the F.A.O. conception of sending foodstuffs to developing countries in order to increase their nutritional standards of diet. We can do that with cereals and so on. In the new arrangements under the G.A.T.T. we should be left freer to export agricultural products than we are at present. I leave that thought with my right hon. Friend. I believe that, if our

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  agriculture is to expand, British farmers want not only their share of the British market today and an expanding share of the British market in the future but a further expansion through their ability to export, whether it be cattle, eggs or milk products, whatever it may be, to countries abroad.
  May I now change the tune? In this lovely June weather, farmers in Scotland are not worrying very much about politics. They are watching their crops, which are looking lovely. They are getting in their hay, they are hoeing their roots, they are watching the potatoes grow, which are too early to get the diseases whatever the disease may be. At this time of the year, the countryside is something which everyone connected with the land will realise is lovely. We have forgotten the bad weather, the diseases we suffered from, the bad lambing in some hill areas, and the difficulties of cultivation in the spring. We have forgotten these things, and we are looking forward optimistically to the future.
  Although this is the season of the big agricultural shows—we had a very good one in the Highlands last week—there are always two worries in the back of farmers' minds. One is the danger of disease. We had a tragic example at the Highland Fair last week when pigs worth £50,000 had to be slaughtered. They were prize pigs, probably the best pigs in Scotland and, indeed, in Britain, but they had to be destroyed because of swine fever. This is one of the risks always at the back of farmers' minds.
  The other is costs. Costs are continually rising, whether it be for fertilisers, for labour or whatever it may be. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West that the agricultural worker deserves everything he gets—perhaps I should say that I hope that he will get everything he deserves. Normally, this is taken into account in the Price Review. By an increase in efficiency farmers can manage to pay better wages as arranged by the agricultural wages board. But two wage awards in a year is a bit "hot". It is very difficult to absorb two wage awards in one year. The second will be in September. [Interruption.] Yes, it is fixed for Scotland anyway. It
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  seems to me, with all respect to the National Union of Agricultural Workers and the union members on the wages board, that it should be arranged that there be only one wage increase a year, because the farmers can only recoup in increased prices once a year. I will not say more than that, but it is another worry that, out of the blue and for the first time, there should be two wage increases in one year.
  We are hoping for a good harvest. Although we are instinctively against change, if we are thinking in terms of politics at all, I think it right to say that we are prepared to accept change in the interests of the nation, if it is rightly thought to be in the interests of the nation, but we do not want to be left behind. One of the main complaints last year was that, whereas industrial income was rising, farming income was not. I hope, therefore, that the paragraph in the Price Review White Paper which I have already read will be taken seriously by the next Government—which, I have no doubt, will be a Tory Government—and that there will be a greater return for farmers to make up for the very serious losses they had two years ago.
  I conclude with three points. The first was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, the question of cereal products and stability of prices. May I relate a personal experience? I put in a grain drier. It cost me quite a lot of money. I did it with the object of conserving the grain so that I could sell when the merchant wanted it. I did it last year, and I did it the year before, but I have not had an extra penny out of all the money I put in as a reward of doing what the merchants wanted done and what my right hon. Friend says should be done. This is wrong. Admittedly, there is a differential, 1s. 3d. plus, if one keeps it long enough—I am talking about barley—but it is admitted now that this is not enough. It ought to be possible to recoup by increased prices from the merchants in the spring the capital cost of such a grain drier, which, as the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie) will know, is fairly high. This ought to be possible if I, for instance, contract and agree to have the grain ready

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  to be delivered to the merchants whenever they want it, in March, April, May or June. But no one would give me a contract. I have tried.
  I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend, in further negotiations on the arrangements for the marketing of cereals, will bear this point in mind, that those of us who are going out of our way to try to meet the needs of the merchants and compounders do expect them to have the decency to enable us to recoup part at least of the extra expense we have gone to in trying to deliver the grain dry and in good condition at any time they want it.
  My second point is a small one, but it seems to have been wholly overlooked and omitted when the Horticulture Act, 1960 was passed. Forest tree nurseries are not eligible for assistance under the Horticulture Acts, 1960 or 1964, because the 1964 Act depends on the definition in the 1960 Act. This is stupid. One is supposed to get round it by planting a few rose bushes, prunus trees and ornamental shrubs, in which case part of the forest tree nurseries becomes eligible.
  But forest tree nurseries are not forestry. They do not qualify for any forestry grant. It is only when one arrives at the stage of taking trees out of the nursery and putting them in the woods to be planted that they become eligible for grant. This is a small point; it may not affect many people, but it seems stupid to have omitted it. I suppose that I must take part of the blame for missing it myself. It was never brought to my attention until last month, and it is far too late to do anything now. I read the whole of the proceedings on the 1960 Act and the 1964 Act, and it was never mentioned once.
  Mr. Harold Davies: Did not the hon. Gentleman bring it up in Committee?
  Sir J. Duncan: No one brought it up. It is a very strange omission, and I hope that it will be put right in the next Parliament.
  Third, the price of sugar beet. We had an increase of 3s. 4d. a ton in the price of sugar beet which was 16 per cent. sugar. This is an expensive crop to grow. We have only one factory in Scotland, which is capable of handling 16,000 or 17,000 acres. It was allocated
  1004
  a little more this year, the official allocation being, I think, 14,000 or 15,000 acres. In fact the contracted acreage was down to 11,000. If it gets any lower, the existence of the Cupar factory and the livelihood of the workers in it will be in jeopardy. The costs of producing sugar from sugar beet are very high. This is not entirely a Scottish problem. I believe that the same problem has arisen in one or two English factories, particularly in the Kidderminster area, where they have not been able to take up then-acreage.
  I therefore hope that at the next Price Review my right hon. Friend will make a determined effort to increase the price of sugar beet. Last year it was increased by only 3s. 4d. This year the transport cost arrangements were modified to such a extent that the position was against the farmer's interests. He had to pay more for transport than he used to. In view of the increased costs, if we want to keep the acreage up and the factory in being we estimate we would require £1 a ton extra. In view of the world price of sugar, which is far higher than it used to be, and in view of the Commonwealth price of sugar, which is nowhere near the British price of sugar, there would seem to be room, without in any way interfering with the price of sugar to the housewife, to give us another £1 a ton and thereby encourage the Scottish farmer to grow more sugar beet and keep the factory in Fife in full production.
  I sincerely hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will fight very hard, because there seems to be absolutely no reason why it should not be done. It is a very good crop, although in my own experience the tops are not as valuable as some say for fattening lambs. Nevertheless, it is a very good crop to grow. It is an additional alternative in the rotation of crops, which is a useful thing to have. In case we get too many potatoes from Lincolnshire, it is an alternative crop in the rotation. In every way, it is a crop which ought to be encouraged. Instead, in this Price Review it has been so discouraged that we are 4,000 or 5,000 acres short of what we should have.
  I emphatically repudiate the Motion. I believe that the Conservative and Unionist Government have deserved well of the country in agriculture. I believe

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  that the farmers, broadly speaking, are satisfied with their conditions. They have their doubts, because they are conservative with a small "c": they do not like change. Nevertheless, they are prepared to accept change from this Government, because they can rely on this Government to see that they are not let down.
  6.53 p.m.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: The hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) fired a series of questions at the beginning of his speech, but, as they were exclusively directed at the Labour Party, and as I am not my brother's keeper, he would not, I think, expect me to answer them.
  The hon. Gentleman's experience as a barley grower, with which I have much sympathy, would perhaps have been easier had he been a Russian barley grower, because he will recollect that, by the Schachtian economics of Her Majesty's present Government, when the barley growers in Russia were planning to export barley to this country at £17 a ton they were asked by this Government if they would be so kind as artificially to uplift the price to £20 a ton so that it would not compete with the price of our own growers. Had the hon. Gentleman been a Russian barley grower, perhaps he would have had an artificial bonus.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not think it presumptuous of me if I say that we will miss him very much indeed from our agricultural debates. There are a band of us who meet regularly on these occasions—not as regularly as one would wish. My best recollection of the hon. Gentleman, which I shall always carry, is of a furious argument between him and the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie) as to whether potatoes should or should not be put under clamps. I cannot remember which hon. Gentleman had the better of the exchange, nor can I remember what it was really about.
  Mr. John Mackie: The hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) has changed his tune, at least about putting barley into stacks. He has now gone in the right direction and put it into grain store.
  Mr. Thorpe: May I also add my words of congratulation on the admirable maiden speech of the hon. Member for
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  Faversham (Mr. Boston). His speech was lucid and interesting. The constituency points were of general application. Above all, his speech contained a humour which, I hope, will sharpen some of the duller moments of the House in the future. I have had the advantage of being produced by the hon. Gentleman in a broadcast by the B.B.C. Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman is now no longer in a position to do that, unless we both take advantage of the wide facilities provided by the Postmaster-General for illegal broadcasting.
  May I say to the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Ren-ton) that it is hardly fitting of a politician who calls himself a National Liberal and a Conservative to criticise others for what he calls fighting on both sides. I fly a Liberal flag, and I nail it to a Liberal mast. It is not for me a flag of convenience to be put on somebody else's mast because that happens to be taller and on a bigger ship.
  I warmly welcome the debate, but I must say that I regret the rarity of the occasions upon which we debate agriculture. I hope that it will be noted in the country that this time has not been provided by the Government. Many of us are getting a little tired of asking the Leader of the House for time merely to be told, "This is an affair for the Opposition. Let them provide a Supply Day". If that is the view of the functions of government, I suggest that the Opposition, and indeed the Liberal Party, are given an increased allocation, because we at least know what to do with Supply Days.
  As in the last debate we had on foreign affairs, there are so many issues touching on today's subject for debate which one wants to discuss that it is very difficult to compress them into the compass of one debate. There is the Price Review. There is the standard quantities concept, about which I personally am very uneasy. There is the state of our agreements on imports. There is the meat position. There is the hill cow subsidy review. There is the operation of the Egg Marketing Board and other statutory bodies.
  There is, the position of private afforestation schemes, which are artificially forcing up the price of land and which are not subject to the same planning as is the Forestry Commission.

  1007
  There is the problem of rural development generally. There is the development of factory farming. There are other what I call signposts for agriculture.
  I had at one time felt tempted, to teach the Leader of the House a lesson, to make a long speech upon each of these subjects in turn, but such was my respect for the House that I felt that I must select a very few. Therefore, I should like briefly to touch on what I might call the signposts for the future for agriculture, the position in regard to meat, how I think that production grants and credit facilities should be extended, and particularly a dispute in egg marketing.
  I found the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland very disturbing. He asked all sorts of questions about commodity commissions—what powers would they have; could they control imports; would they have exclusive monopolistic powers; what position would they have in regard to research. He spoke rather like a man who had never heard of commodity commissions before and to whom they held out the fear of the unknown.
  The right hon. Gentleman belongs to an Administration who applied to join the European Common Market—unfortunately, too late in the day. This is an organisation which has a managed market. That managed market is operated by commodity commissions. Those commodity commissions have target prices. Those commodity commissions have power to buy in the market to hold the price. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the Government went round the country telling the farmers that they had no need to worry about this system. They told the farmers that they were satisfied that it was an excellent system and, even though they had made violent speeches against it in the 1959 election, that violent opposition no longer held true.
  I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman is now somewhat lacking in enthusiasm for this idea and whether the Conservative Party is going back to the position that it adopted in 1959?
  Mr. Noble: I noticed, when I was speaking, that the hon. Member appeared to be disagreeing with me and it was at that point that I asked those
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  questions about commodity commissions. I wondered, since I thought that the hon. Member was nodding, whether he would care to make his party's position clear. I was not talking about the sort of commodity commissions that exist in the European Community, but was wondering what the view of the hon. Member was on this issue.
  Mr. Thorpe: What an extraordinary position—that the Government of the day should believe that they must be told all about these commissions. Obviously, they have not made up their mind on them. Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that it is not the job of the Opposition, but of the Government, to decide these issues. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to know the sort of powers these commodity commissions will have he should read the Verdon Smith Report. I recommend paragraph 845, where he will see that these aspects are discussed in some detail. I must say, from the Answer the Prime Minister gave me on 9th June and from the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman today, that further digestion of the admirable Verdon Smith Report would be meritorious from the Government's point of view.
  However, I wish, first, to deal with the general philosophy—the general pattern—we want to see in farming. The 1947 and 1957 Acts, which all three parties voted for, had as their intention to give a measure of security to the farming community, to provide a regular flow of food at the right price to the housewife and to maintain a relatively free import policy. We now know that in recent years those Acts have failed to achieve those objectives.
  Although the cost of farm support has risen from £190 million in 1954–55 to £20 million in 1964–65, the Index of Retail Prices has still gone up by 15 per cent. Although the net output of the farming community has gone up by 50 per cent. since the war, their incomes have gone up barely 10 per cent. compared with the 40 per cent. to 50 per cent. in other parts of the economy. Therefore, the aim of keeping down food prices and giving stability to the farmer has not been achieved. It is obvious that those Acts have to some extent been successful, but certainly not

  1009
  to the extent it was hoped—and they have certainly not enabled the farmer to keep pace with other sections of the community. Indeed, the taxpayer has been facing an increasingly higher subsidy bill.
  As a result of all this, the Government, rightly, introduced a Measure which gave them certain powers regarding the limitation of imports. We Liberals go much further, and support the concept of the managed market. We consider this to be the only logical way of dealing with these matters. We supported the idea of the managed market in Europe and we are equally in favour of it for this country. A managed market, with target prices to be fixed after an Annual Price Review, with commodity commissions for cereals and meat, with powers to intervene on the market by stocks and to advise the Minister to regulate markets, is obviously the only answer.
  I believe that it would enable the farmer more and more to derive his income from the market and less and less from support. This would be the right way to move forward. We could also hope for more efficient marketing, particularly when one considers that at present for every £1 the consumer pays, only 6s. goes back to the farmer. If one studies the margins of meat profits elsewhere one finds that, for example, in Germany the housewife and farmer have a price not nearly as far apart as the price which exists in terms of meat profits in this country. It is essential that we work towards a managed market, but we will not be successful in doing that unless and until we have commodity commissions, at any rate for these two products.
  This brings me to the subject of meat, and it is interesting to note that while we had a surplus in 1961—and needed a £78 million Supplementary Estimate—we have had a shortage in 1964. Both events appear to have had one thing in common—that they took the Minister by surprise. Despite the massive labours of the Verdon Smith Committee, the Government have not yet agreed to a single measure or proposal put forward in that Report. Why, for example, have the Government not been able to do something along the lines of the sug-
  1010
  gestion made in paragraph 895, where it is stated:
  "To enable consumers to judge and compare prices and to improve competition between retailers, we recommend that, as a minimum requirement, all meat retailers should display in a prominent position comprehensive price lists of the meat currently being offered for sale; and further that, if it is practicable, the marketing of cuts of meat with both the price per lb. and the total price of the joint should be made compulsory …".
  Surely it should have been possible for the Government to have introduced a suggestion of that sort by now. There is no reason why months and months of negotiation should be necessary to ensure that that suggestion is enforced. Why, for example, have the Government not taken any action over the suggestion the Verdon Smith Committee made in paragraph 899, where it is stated:
  "Genuine price competition is … the correct means to ensure the efficiency of the retail meat trade. … Attempts by retailers to prevent wholesalers from selling meat directly to caterers and institutions are not in the interests of efficient distribution …".
  In paragraph 892, the Committee suggested that far more evidence about the chain of costs involved in the various centres should be made available to the public. It was on this subject that the Prime Minister was, perhaps, not as familiar as he might have been with the contents of the Verdon Smith Report, because on 9th June I asked the right hon. Gentleman:
  "… whether, to allay widespread anxiety over margins charged in the meat distributing trade, he will instruct the President of the Board of Trade to consult the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with a view to publishing simultaneously each week the retail prices of meat already collected weekly by the Ministry of Labour …"
  to which the right hon. Gentleman replied:
  "In its report to Agriculture Ministers last February the Verdon Smith Committee stated that it could find no evidence that margins in the wholesale or retail meat trades in the period 1958–62 as a whole had been excessive."
  Obviously, the Prime Minister had not read the Report properly, because he should have known that in paragraph 487 the Committee stated:
  "As we have already pointed out, detailed comparison of wholesale and retail prices is impossible because of the inadequacies of the data, and the results of the survey of independent retailers' accounts ending in 1962 were probably considerably influenced by their trade

  1011
  in the second half of 1961. We therefore regard this evidence as inconclusive."
  The Prime Minister told me that there was no evidence to support the allegation, but that was certainly not what the Verdon Smith Report stated, for that Report specifically spoke of "the inadequacies of data".
  It is interesting to note that in his reply to me on 9th June the Prime Minister said, after I had pressed him to go further:
  "I am certain that my right hon. Friend is always willing to consider whether he can give any better figures which would serve the public …"
  Following that, I asked the right hon. Gentleman, since none of those figures were published in any event, whether he realised that it was difficult for the consumer to judge whether or not the figures were good, to which the right hon. Gentleman replied:
  "I did not say that these figures were published. I said that if my right hon. Friend could help the public in any way he would certainly do so. But this is certainly not a way in which the public could be helped."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th June 1964; Vol. 696, c. 235–6.]
  I urge the Government to give us more information about their intentions in regard to these statistics because there is no doubt that if we do not have a statutory authority, such as that recommended by the Verdon Smith Committee, we will certainly need some form of board which will be in a position to make forecasts of important trends and pricings and advise the Minister.
  The third point to which I wish to refer today is the question of production grants. I am certain that not only is the purpose of agricultural support to provide a steady flow of foodstuffs, but also to give a reasonable price with reasonable security to the farmer. Production grants are vital if farmers are to become more efficient and competitive. I would like to see the Small Farmer Scheme extended, at least as a start. It has been a good scheme, but at present accounts for only 2 per cent. of the total bill. We should abolish the man-hours formula, which is hopelessly archaic and artificial, and in its place I would like to see grants of up to 50 per cent. available for the erection, alteration and enlargement of permanent farm buildings, excluding farm houses. I know that under Part II one can get one-
  1012
  third grant spread over 10 years, but more often than not that does not go to the large man.
  Another form of assistance is the hill cow subsidy payments. I come from a part of the country where we are having an extensive review of the eligibility of farmers to continue to receive assistance. Unfortunately, our worst fears have now been realised. I am happy to see that the Secretary of State for Scotland appears to be getting a fair amount of enjoyment from my speech, but perhaps I may tell him something that may alter his expression. I am talking of a series of farmers who have every expectation of being put out of business by the Government and by this act; and this will not be forgotten.
  The latest available figures in Devon show that 436 farms have been reviewed to see whether they were eligible for continued hill cow subsidy payment. Of those, 254 have been declared ineligible, and I understand that, so far, of 100 appeals, 10 have been successful, three have been partly successful, and 87 have been rejected. In North Devon alone, 52 farms have been reviewed; three have been kept in, three have been partially kept in, in the case of three there has been no decision, and 39 have been excluded.
  That means that farmers who came in on the inducement of the hill cow subsidy scheme, whose land at the time was not thought suitable for any other purpose, are suddenly to have this assistance withdrawn from them. This is not a review so much as a complete reinterpre-tation of the scheme ab initio.
  Perhaps I may give an example of how viciously—and one may say that—this review is working. A farm at Knowstone, in my constituency, is 750 ft. up. In 1952, it was selected by the agricultural executive committee as a representative example for the whole of the West of how, £ for £, the Livestock Rearing Act could help on marginal land. The land is marshy, and one finds the breeding herd hidden for the most part by heavier rushes. This has been a livestock rearing area for centuries—it was really not much good for anything else. As I say, this farm was such a perfect example of the sort of terrain for which the hill cow subsidy was meant that it was the subject

  1013
  of articles in the farming Press, and was specially selected by the A.E.C. in 1952.
  The farmer has now been told that it is suitable for crops, dairying, and the fattening of cattle or sheep. I should have thought that to be an impossible act even for the Archangel Gabriel, were he to turn his hand to such an activity. The farmer appealed, and has received a duplicated form—there are so many of them they have to be duplicated—to say that his appeal has been rejected. That man now loses his subsidy, his winter keep, he is left with a very barren farm, and his income will at once drop by £750. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to look again at how this review is being carried out in the West Country, because very many small farmers who hve no alternative means of gaining a livelihood are finding that the carpet is being pulled from under their feet.
  Page 44 of the Conservative Party's publication on agriculture, referred to by the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies), says, of credit:
  "The Conservative Party has never believed in easy credit for agriculture."
  How right that is. When one considers that the average interest charges on loans to the agricultural community run to about £26 million a year, one begins to realise how vital credit is to farmers, and particularly to small farmers.
  A survey recently carried out at the University of Exeter showed that 40 farms that had benefited from the Small Farmer Scheme had insufficient capital. The farmers bought seeds and fertilisers with Government assistance, and then found that they had not enough money to buy the cattle or sheep to put on the ground that benefited from the fertiliser and seed put in the soil.
  We have to tackle afresh the whole idea of credit for the agricultural industry. The L.I.C. is doing quite a good job, but it cannot make advances on the security of any holding under 50 acres. The A.M.C. can only lend at Bank Rate plus 1½ per cent., and thereafter must show a profit on borrowings. I should like to see both the L.I.C. and the A.M.C. closed down, and a land bank established which could give credit facilities of up to 100 per cent. of the value of the farm, at current rates of interest, backed initially by the Treasury, and
  1014
  which could also guarantee other banks making loans. There is nothing radical in that suggestion; many other countries successfully operate such banks. If we are to have the concept of a managed market, production grants properly angled and credit readily available, then agriculture can face a secure and expanding future.
  I want to refer with emphasis to the activities of the Egg Marketing Board. The House knows that under the Egg Marketing Scheme the Board was given wide powers. All producers except those with flocks of 50 or under were required to register, and all eggs were to be sold by the Board, except in those instances where a licence was granted to sell direct to consumers or retailers.
  A problem now arises relating to what are known as "seconds"—second-quality eggs. Prior to 1st January, 1964, egg packing stations could sell second-quality eggs to anyone they wished, but as a result of an announcement made by the Board on 24th October, 1962, only processers approved by the Board could purchase second-quality eggs. That date—24th October, 1962—is very important. This trade is worth nearly £1½ million per annum, and it becomes apparent that the Board was in possession of a monopoly, and a very valuable monopoly. Since the Board was set up by Parliament, since it was armed with statutory powers by Parliament, since the Minister has already, under Section 19 of the 1958 Agriculture Act, made a reference to a committee of investigation about the activities of the Board, one is entitled to ask whether that power of approval has been exercised wisely and fairly.
  One small farm in the West Country—in the constituency of the Parliamentary Secretary—takes the view that the Board has not acted fairly, but has, in fact, acted in a way that is not only manifestly unjust, but which will put this small company right out of business. I think that the facts will show that the Egg Marketing Board has behaved disgracefully that the committee of investigation has not probed sufficiently into the available evidence and, even on the evidence available, has reached conclusions that are totally unacceptable. Here I pay tribute to the newspapers who have probed this case.

  1015
  What are the facts of this case? There are two men in Cornwall, Mr. Roose and Mr. Baker, both of whom have been in the egg industry for several years; Mr. Roose, back to 1958, and Mr. Baker from 1961. At the end of 1961, a large bakery firm in Plymouth stated that it was not any longer prepared to buy unpasteurised liquid eggs, but that if pasteurised eggs could be produced locally it would be happy to give the processers a long-term assurance. Mr. Roose and Mr. Baker therefore decided to pasteurise liquid eggs for bakery and other industrial purposes. They had every right to do this. Second quality eggs were freely purchasable from packing stations. It was a trade they understood.
  In March, 1962, they had discussions with a firm which was a supplier. It was a little time before the specifications arrived, because the plant was manufactured only in America, but eventually—in September, 1962—they received their quotation, and on 5th October they paid a deposit of £390 on nearly £1,300 worth of equipment. So, on 5th October, they had entered into a contract, had paid their deposit, had agreed to take delivery and had hire-purchase facilities with a firm which would help them to pay off the balance.
  Suddenly on 24th October, with no prior warning, came an announcement from the Board that it, and it alone, would decide who had the right to process second quality eggs. Straight away these men wrote to the Board and said, "We should like to tell you that we are in this business and have just bought some very expensive equipment, and we take it that it will be in order for us to buy eggs from you." The Board replied on 19th November that it surmised that the installation of the plant had been stimulated by the news of the announcement that the monopoly would be handed out. There was not a shred of evidence for this conclusion, but throughout this has been the reaction of the Board.
  That was the attitude of the Board. What is much more serious is what followed—the evasion of the Board. By December, 1962, it wrote and said that it could not give a guarantee and was not hopeful of granting a franchise
  1016
  because, in any event, a very great deal of preparatory work had still to be done. But we already know from the findings of the Committee of Investigation, on page 10, that before the Board made the decision it had already virtually selected as the Board's agents a firm in Taunton, which was thereby going to be given a monopoly for the whole of the South-West. There was no question of inviting applications; there was no question of going through the applications on their merits. There was a prior arrangement before there was any question of a public announcement, and this firm, to the exclusion of all others, was promised a monopoly.
  It took the Board one year to "come clean" and say definitely that this little firm should not be supplied. We now know that there has been a carve-up between 10 firms, and that the Board met the 10 successful firms after the Cornish application had been received and that that application, from all that one can tell, was never properly considered by the Board. The effect is that the men I mentioned face bankruptcy and ruin because they cannot get supplies as they are not one of the 10 processors approved by the Board.
  The Board went further, and it is this behaviour which leads the Committee of Investigation, set up by the Minister, with a Queen's Counsel presiding, to say that there were no grounds for complaints that the Board acted unreasonably. The Board felt that it had to give excuses for its rejection. It had already given a monopoly before announcing the scheme. It said that the standards at the packing station did not comply with the Board's standards of hygiene and quality.
  That has been rebutted by the finding of the Committee of Investigation. We also know that, although these allegations were made on 5th February, it was not until 6th February that the Board carried out an inspection. So it rejected on 5th February and inspected on 6th February. This is the Board of which the Queen's Counsel said that there were no grounds for complaint that the Board had acted unreasonably.
  There is a final point of interest. The Board is told by the Committee of Investigation that if it had broken the

  1017
  contract with the company supplying their machinery no action for damages would follow, in the view of the Queen's Counsel who presided, because a man from the selling company had stated that he did not think his firm would ask for the cost of installation or for the deposit to be forfeited. This comes from a Queen's Counsel who says, on page 10:
  "In the absence of anything in writing, we do not know precisely what passed between the parties to this contract when the question of a possible breach was raised."
  On that evidence he concludes that no action could have been brought.
  In an Answer to a Question today from the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) the Minister was asked whether he would make a Section 20 direction to the Board, and he has refused. In a sense, the Minister has no alternative but to refuse. By Section 20(4,a) he can make a direction only if he has not been told by the Committee that there have been errors or omissions. Therefore, the only course open to the Minister is to order a fresh inquiry, and, in my view, this he has the power to do. If the Parliamentary Secretary has any doubt, I am prepared to argue the legal toss with him on a later occasion.
  I merely say that, first, the inquiry dealt only with the facts submitted. The transcript of evidence is not available, and I believe that the Minister should request both sides to agree that it should be disclosed. The interests of persons affected have been ignored, and the series of conclusions reached are either inadequate or based on non-existent evidence.
  I should like to know how the lucky 10 were selected, and when. We know, for example, that the managing director of one of the lucky 10, given this "licence to make money", was formerly a member of the Special Committee. It would be interesting to know whether he had attended a meeting of the 10, and if so, in which capacity—as a member of the special committee granting the franchise or as the managing director of a firm about to receive it.
  I should like the Minister to agree that the little firm that I have mentioned is not asking for special treatment. It is asking for fair treatment, and it has not been given it. I would ask the Minister to
  1018
  agree that it is a valuable monopoly which is being granted, and that it is vital in the public interest to ensure that the power is being fairly exercised. It is clear that prior agreement was granted to the Taunton firm—before the publication of the scheme. It is clear that there was no proper consideration of the application of the Cornish firm. It is clear that the rejection was based on a report which was written before the inspection was carried out. It is clear that there was a long and unreasonable delay before these people were finally told that they would not be permitted to have supplies.
  I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that in this case the firm has been wrongly treated by a statutory Board. It is a firm which faces ruin. These people have as much right to have their claim considered as any other company connected with the egg industry. If we are to have this worst type of bureaucracy on the part of a public board, with arrogance, deceit and evasion, as it seems to be, surely this is a case where the Minister must decide there should be a thorough inquiry, and that, pending that inquiry, the firm should be allowed to buy second quality eggs, upon which it depends for economic survival.
  7.28 p.m.
  Sir Anthony Hurd: We have all fallowed with great interest what has been said by the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) about some aspects of this case concerning pasteurised eggs and the licences given by the British Egg Marketing Board. I shall be interested to know what the Minister himself has to say about it when he replies to the debate.
  I am left with the thought that if members of the Liberal Party are so horrified by the actions of the statutory marketing board, would they, would the farmers and would Parliament really like to be under the thumb of commodity commissions, which would have just the same kind of powers and would be exercising them widespread? I doubt it.
  Mr. Thorpe: There are two things to be said about that. The first is whether one has statutory bodies, and the second is whether one allows them to exercise their powers wisely and justly. The answer to the first point is,

  1019
  "Yes, one can be in favour of them." The answer to the second point is, "They must act wisely and justly."
  Sir A. Hard: Yes, and, the hon. Gentleman will agree, they should be subject to the kind of inquiry which has been made into the pasteurised eggs—and perhaps that will give no satisfaction to the people concerned.
  Since 1945, I must have taken part in a score or more of agricultural debates, when we have ranged widely round the problems of the land and farming in Britain. I do not remember an occasion when a Motion of criticism—for this is not a Motion of censure—has been based on such a rag-bag of odd bits and pieces, quite incoherently sewn together with some vague generalities. This is certainly not a Motion of censure; it is very mild. It says:
  "That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to produce an effective long-term policy for British agriculture."
  I was disappointed not to have had something more clear and definite from the Opposition Front Bench. I was rather looking forward to hearing what the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) would say for his party. Now I have got to wait until later this evening.
  I wonder what sense some of the speeches in this debate will make in the country. Those of us who earn our living by farming, and who are in close touch with farmers and farm workers, know that our industry has never shown more vitality than today. Of course, it has its problems. One can always conjure up a whole host of things, including Purchase Tax on blackcurrants and goodness knows what else, with which to criticise the Government of the day.
  In fact, under a Conservative Government, for the last 12 years, the industry has generated a vitality which is the envy of the world. Why is it that Russia asked us to put on a show in Moscow? Why is it that next week's Royal Show, at Stoneleigh, will attract hundreds and possibly thousands of overseas visitors to see our livestock, our ways of farming, our equipment and machinery which we have developed and for which there
  1020
  is a market overseas worth over £100 million a year? These are all signs of a vigorous industry which has not been suffering under the maladministration of the Government for 12 years. I am doubtful whether much of what has been said on the benches opposite will worry farmers and farm workers. They have a job to do and will get on with it.
  I thought that my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) was right when he drew attention to the value of the consistent policy of Conservative Governments in fostering and supporting meat production, and particularly beef production. Indeed, how fortunate we are that this has been a successful policy. We should be having much less beef than we consume today and paying very much higher prices if we had not pursued this policy. One only has to look around to judge how food prices have moved in neighbouring countries compared with our own. This is one of the best testimonies to the dual benefits which our policy has provided—stability and assurances for the farmer, and steady supplies to the consumer at world prices or below.
  I have a table of figures given in the United Nations Monthly Bulletin of Statistics showing how food prices have risen in this country and in other European countries between 1956 and December, 1963. Food prices in the United Kingdom have risen by 13 per cent., a very modest rise when set against rises of 50 per cent. in France; 39 per cent. in Sweden; 22 per cent. in the Netherlands; 19 per cent. in Germany; and 19 per cent. in Italy. Our record is good. Our policy has achieved its purpose. It has increased and maintained home production of food and it has assured our consumers steady prices and a good range of quality supplies.
  I was interested when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland referred to the high prices now ruling for beef. I do not think that they are really high. They may seem high for us, but they are not high by world standards. In fact, they are still low. If that were not so, we should not have Continental buyers coming here to purchase livestock in Scotland and the Eastern counties. We must accept that beef prices will stay fairly high so long

  1021
  as cattle stocks in Europe are at a low level. We are maintaining and increasing ours, but we shall not draw big supplies of beef from the Argentine in the next few years, nor indeed from Australia because her standard of living is rising and she is consuming more of her better quality beef. We do not care for the low-quality frozen beef, which finds a rather better market in the United States, where it is used for manufacturing purposes.
  When we look at these comparisons in food prices, we find that ours have stayed comparatively steady and our price increases have been modest. Our policy has paid good dividends. I was about to say that the Opposition should have waited, but, on reflection, I do not think that they should have paused any longer. They paused long enough before putting down the Motion. But if the Opposition had looked around the countryside to see what was going on and had "taken the temperature", they would have seen that they could not get much out of a debate criticising the Government's agricultural policy.
  In my time in the House since 1945, we have had a succession of Ministers of Agriculture who devoted their talents and powers to the good of British agriculture, and in that way they have served the country well. I include in that company Lord Williams of Barnburgh, the first Minister of Agriculture I knew in this House, right through to the present Minister. Our present Minister—quite a different man from Lord Williams, and a very effective Minister in today's conditions—is doing a good job for our agriculture and for the country.
  I only hope that whoever is the next Minister—whatever may be the complexion of the Government—will do an equally good job so that British agriculture will, as our Amendment says, continue to prosper.
  7.37 p.m.
  Lady Megan Lloyd George: I wish to join issue with the hon. Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd). It is not the policy of this Government which has produced this upsurge of vitality in agriculture; it is the increasing efficiency of the farmers and productivity of the workers. That was brought about by the security provided, in the first
  1022
  place, by the 1947 Act. It is this policy which the Government have over the years attempted to erode.
  That is one of the reasons why we have put down this Motion. Now the Government are seeking, in this election year, to draw a veil over the gradual erosion of that policy and they have produced a Price Review which is to be a sort of smokescreen. The Prime Minister said some time ago that it was not possible, when speaking about the adverse balance of payments, to judge the situation by the figures for one month. It is certainly impossible to judge the Government's agricultural policy by one Annual Price Review—and that in an election year.
  We have been accused of making political capital out of this; and who can blame us? The circumstances are very suspicious, for several reasons. In the last eight Price Reviews there have been five disagreements between the Minister and the fanners. Yet there was no disagreement in 1955, before the election, and no disagreement this year, again before the election. I ask the farming community to observe, however, that there were disagreements in the year immediately after the election. I am sure that members of the farming community will draw their conclusions from that.
  Secondly, this is the first Review when increased costs to farmers have been fully recouped. This is a very remarkable change. For the past ten years the average under-recoupment to the farmers has been at the rate of £17½ million per annum. Then we have had an increase in the price of milk—true, at the expense of the housewife. But still, the Government claim, here is an increase in the price of milk. We welcome that increase for the producer; it is most opportune. But again it represents a new trend, a change, in Government policy because milk producers have had hard times.
  Between 1955 and 1963, the average price of milk declined by 10 per cent., although, I might add, the retail price increased by 28 per cent.
  The Government have certainly failed to produce an effective long-term policy for meat.
  Sir A. Hurd Sir A. Hurd indicated dissent.
  Lady Megan Lloyd George: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but when

  1023
  people talk about disarray and chaos in this question I do not think that they are putting it too high. I welcome the powers which the Government have taken to regulate imports. I welcome what the Secretary of State for Scotland said today about the negotiations with other countries, which I hope will succeed. But a vital part of the problem is left untouched, and that is the marketing of meat. This is the heart and core of the matter.
  We have had the Verdon Smith Report. This was an object lesson in how not to go about solving a great commercial problem. The Verdon Smith Committee produced an accurate, interesting and very useful account of the production and sale of meat. It was admirable and could not have been better. But the recommendations had nothing to do with the case. Given the facts, the recommendations, such as they were—and they were very trivial, although some of them were quite useful—were completely incomprehensible.
  I should like to deal with some of the facts which the Verdon Smith Committee produced, but let me first deal with the facts produced by the National Farmers' Union. That body took from 1958 to 1962 a sample of 357 typical farms, concerned mainly with livestock, and their conclusions showed that their profits went up by 3 per cent. That is not much with a declining purchasing power. The Verdon Smith Report pointed out that in the same period the profits of provincial wholesalers went up by 51 per cent. and the profits of retailers went up by 36 per cent. Yet this Committee said that it did not think that these profits were unreasonable and that there was no reason to alter the system because of them. If ever there were a complete non sequitur, I should say that that was it. Because it is the system which is at fault. There is no doubt about that, and yet the Verdon Smith recommendation is to entrench the system more firmly, to make it more dominant in the marketing of meat.
  The increased efficiency and technical advance which the farmers have brought about demand new techniques in marketing. The farmers have done their share, but they have not been met by increased
  1024
  efficiency and unless and until we can secure a modernised and effective system of marketing the producer will not be assured of a fair return and the consumer certainly will not pay a reasonable price. There is to be no marketing board, as the N.F.U. suggested. There is to be no centralised organisation. That is the recommendation of the Verdon Smith Committee.
  I should like to know what the Minister thinks about this. We had a sort of preliminary skirmishing from the Secretary of State for Scotland, but, speaking as a Welsh Member, I want to know what the Minister who represents for this purpose my part of the world, thinks. First, he left it to the industry. Then he left it to a Committee. Now he cannot leave it to anybody else. He really must tell us now what he proposes to do The Secretary of State for Scotland said today: "We must have more time." Someone asked him whether he would give a decision before the election. If he waits until after the election, he will have all the time that he wants. I hope that we shall hear something more definite about this matter before the debate is over.
  I want to say a few words about the small farmer. My hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies), in his robust speech with its unmistakable Celtic fervour and flavour which appealed to me very much, spoke movingly about the problems of the small farmer. We are continually being told that we must consider adjustments in subsidies and price support for the industry. If we are to do that, they must be adjustments which will prevent too large a share from going to some farmers and not enough to others. The subsidy was never intended by Parliament to swell the profits of big business or great fertiliser firms. We all know that it has in fact swollen the profits of great fertiliser firms. Lord Nether-thorpe showed once again what a shrewd businessman he was when he left the presidential chair of the N.F.U. for the chair of Fisons.
  There is no doubt that the small farmer is not getting his fair share. He has had the thinnest time of all. With the agricultural worker, he is the hardest worker in the industry. Very often he gets about the equivalent of the agricultural wage, and sometimes even less.

  1025
  There are farmers in marginal areas of Wales, Scotland and the West Country who at the end of the day, when all their accounts have been settled, have as much to live on as if they were on National Assistance. I have such cases in my constituency.
  Those people are the least represented in any negotiations. They have the smallest "cut" of the subsidies. The small dairy farmer—who represents the majority of the smaller farmers, certainly in Wales—gets no subsidy, not a penny farthing. Even in the Farm Improvement Scheme, which, we are told, is so admirable, the prudent landlord clause militates against him because the return on the investment is so small. When providing buildings for a large farmer, the risk is not very great, but for the small farmer it is not such a good investment.
  There are rumours of the possibility that milk farmers will have transport discrimination made against them. That is to say, farmers who live at a great distance from London or other great population centres will get less for their milk than those living in the areas nearer to the great cities. I believe that the Milk Marketing Board has expressed its opinion against this idea. I hope that the Minister tonight will give us a categorical answer because this is a matter of great importance to marginal farmers, that this will not happen.
  The great asset of the small farmer is his labour, but he needs credit. This is where I so much agree with the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe). The small farmer needs credit and assistance to pay for equipment, for timber, cement and whatever he needs to re-equip his farm. Instead of giving him a grant equivalent to one-third of the cost, I believe it would be better to give him a long-term loan. But it is credit at reasonable rates that the small farmer needs.
  It is strange that the banks seem to apply two totally different standards to industry, on the one hand, and to agriculture, on the other hand.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames)The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames) indicated dissent.
  Lady Megan Lloyd George: The Minister disagrees, but if he went to a bank in disguise as a small farmer—[Laughter.]—I admit that he would find
  1026
  it difficult so to disguise himself—he would find the chances of getting a loan very small, whereas he would be able to bluff his way into some sort of credit for a small industry.
  What is to be done for the small farmer who is struggling on marginal land? All kinds of solutions have been put forward. One is to amalgamate the small farmers into viable units. If they are willing, well and good. If not, what are we to do? Pension them off? Euthanasia, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leek suggested? Are they to be starved out?
  I am convinced that the solution which is suggested by the Labour Party—of ensuring that the small farmers get their credits at reasonable rates, through a credit organisation backed by the Treasury—is the only conceivable way. We should thank heaven for the small farmer, for his sturdy independence and the fact that he is prepared to carry on, on the very small pittance which he earns.
  Wherever they are, the small farmers represent a good solid backing in the community, whether in Wales, the West Country, Scotland or the North of England. They have a sense of vocation, like the small farmer who said, "A man toils among the hills on his bit of land, not because he is out to make a fortune, but because this is a way of life which, he knows, is good for him and for his family". We ought to be glad that that spirit still exists.
  A debate on agriculture in the House of Commons is always regarded as the preserve of the agriculturists or of those who represent rural constituencies. It is, however, a vital matter for the House as a whole. When we consider subsidies, here is a question which has to be faced by the whole community. The subsidies, do not let us forget, were intended to benefit the consumer as well as the farmer. The consumer will suffer if those subsidies are done away with or drastically reduced.
  In that case, the consumer would have two alternatives. Either he would have to pay the farmer his full production costs, as he pays for the products of every other industry, or he would have to be dependent upon foreign imports,

  1027
  in which event he would certainly be held to ransom. Therefore, when considering this matter as a whole, as a House of Commons and representing all constituencies, we must consider whether we are prepared to see an increase, and a considerable one, in the price of food.
  We too often forget that the balance of payments is greatly affected by agriculture. If there were a deterioration in the balance of payments, and there is an idea that there might be—the figures are due soon—how much greater would that deterioration be were it not for the contribution of agriculture? The greatest single contribution that is made to our import bill by any industry is made by agriculture. As an important import saver, the increase in agricultural production since the war is worth nearly £400 million a year. That is quite a contribution. If the production of agriculture declined, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and any Government would be hard put to it to find how to fill the gap.
  Agriculture is a great and vital industry, vital to the economy of the country. It is because we honestly and sincerely believe that the Government have failed to produce a long-term policy for the industry that we on this side have moved our Motion today.
  7.59 p.m.
  Sir Henry Studholme: The noble Lady the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) has a very nice sense of humour and I am sure that we all enjoyed her reference to the big Minister as a small farmer. We all agree with her in her sympathy with the small farmer. However, there are some things which she said I must disagree with her about.
  The noble Lady said that the Price Review was a smokescreen. Well, of course, the awards made under the Review were made because the facts warranted them. My right hon. Friend has had four price reviews; two of them have been agreed, and two not agreed; but the fact remains that we were able, fortunately, to have a nice Price Review this time, and that was because the facts warranted it.
  The noble Lady said that there is no long-term policy for meat. I should like
  1028
  to point out that, thanks to Government encouragement, 73 per cent., I believe, of the beef we consume is now produced in this country. The Minister will, no doubt, make a statement in due course about the Verdon Smith Report.
  Having listened to the speeches from the opposite side, I would repeat what my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd) said, that they form a sort of rag-bag of accusations which do not add up to justification for the charges set out in the Motion. When I read the Motion I thought it was very unwise of the party opposite to make these charges, because the policy which my right hon. Friend is engaged in implementing is the right one, and it is the one most likely to provide long-term stability for British farming, as far as we are able to look ahead at present. It will certainly put a bottom in the market and will enable our people to go on getting food at reasonable prices.
  It is, of course, a logical adaptation of the system of guaranteed prices with unrestricted food imports combined with anti-dumping duties which all responsible people, including the N.F.U., agreed to be best suited to the country's needs and to our responsibilities to the Commonwealth, but it had been breaking down latterly because world conditions have changed from conditions of shortage when the scheme was devised to the present-day conditions when there are surpluses in a great many countries. Of course, to get the right system of support for agriculture is the first priority, and hand in hand with that we have to get improved marketing. That is exactly what the Government are already helping to do under the 1963 Act and the new Agriculture and Horticulture Act which has just been passed.
  The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) muttered something about this being a chance for the party opposite to declare its policy. I have been listening, and I am very disappointed, that the party opposite does not seem to have any coherent policy. Before the debate I searched "Signposts to the Sixties" very minutely to see whether there was anything about agriculture in it. There is not a word, any more than there is a word about defence. One would have thought that there would have been something in that document about these two very important subjects; but no, nothing at all.

  1029
  It is very strange—though, perhaps it is not very strange, because on these two particular subjects the party opposite is strangely divided. As far as I can make out, apart from general references to a world food plan, combined with international commodity agreements and commodity commissions for cereals and livestock, we know very little of what that party has in mind and we have no details of how these things it proposes would work.
  I am sometimes rather sorry for the hon. Member for Workington because we get people like the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman)—I regret that he is not here—saying that farmers can produce as much as they like because a Labour Government could easily dispose of it in a hungry world. I do not know how he would combine that with the policy of international commodity agreements. I do not think that one could combine the two. The hon. Member for Coventry, East did not reveal how it was to be done. He is a very brilliant man, mentally, but is not renowned for consistency.
  Let us take three pegs on which the Socialist Party appears to hang its policy. First there is a world food programme under U.N.O. and the F.A.O. with the object of raising the level of nutrition in countries where nutrition is low. It is not the brain child of the party opposite. It has been going a long time, and the Government already support it, and we are, I believe, the third largest subscriber, but anyone who has talked to Dr. Boerma, who is in charge of it, will appreciate the practical difficulties and realise that, encouraging though progress is, one cannot expect rapid or spectacular results, and it would be quite dishonest to suggest that this is going to provide any magic or simple solution to the problems which confront Western European agriculture.
  As for commodity agreements, the Government have for some time been discussing these under G.A.T.T. auspices. As for commodity commissions, one feels one must ask hon. Members opposite how exactly they would work and whether they would have powers to control imports. I hope we shall get an answer from the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up, because control of imports, as far as I can see, is a responsibility which the Government
  1030
  and Parliament should not delegate to any outside body. I have a nasty feeling that what the party opposite is really hankering after is a return to its beloved system of controls, State trading, and bulk buying.
  Long-term contracts, the virtue of which the party opposite is always ramming down our throats, can be very useful in certain conditions, but they are apt to lose their attraction in times of plenty. We have been told by some Socialists that the recent beef shortages could have been remedied by long-term contracts, but no amount of Socialist planning or long-term contracts can alter climate or prevent droughts in the Argentine, and, as for the beef shortage, as has been pointed out before, there were plenty of other forms of meat available.
  This is probably the last debate on agriculture which we are likely to have in this Parliament, and, that being so, I should like to hand a bouquet to my right hon. Friend the Minister. There can be few more difficult jobs than that of Minister of Agriculture. My right hon. Friend is not unaccustomed to receiving brickbats: one cannot please all the farmers all the time; it seems to me that sometimes one cannot please any of them.
  I would say that in these last years, with food surpluses increasing, my right hon. Friend has had a more than usually difficult task, because while we were quite rightly negotiating to see if we could get acceptable terms to go into the Common Market we could not, for obvious reasons, which some people did not see, make any alteration to our support system. So it was a most frustrating time, and I do not believe that even if the Archangel Gabriel had come down from heaven to become Minister of Agriculture at that time he would have made a better do of it than my right hon. Friend. It is all the more creditable that my right hon. Friend has been able to achieve what he has in this year.
  Today the industry, I am sure, is in good heart. I am thankful to say that the small livestock farmer is in a much happier position than he has been for several years. This is very important in the West Country where I come from, as we have a preponderance of small livestock farmers there.

  1031
  I should like to quote a letter from a farmer constituent whose comments are not always so complimentary, and I pass this on to my right hon. Friend. This is what he says:
  "In the farming world prospects are brighter than they have been for a year or two, and I should like to assure the Minister that in the West Country at least there is quiet confidence, which the industry so badly needed. At every market there is a good trade for all stock, and the future for milk and meat is very promising."
  As a farmer myself in a small way, I believe this to be true, and when I look at my milk cheque and livestock sales I feel much happier.
  Mr. George Brown: What was the date of that letter?
  Sir H. Studholme: About three weeks ago.
  Mr. Brown: Yes, after the Price Review.
  Sir H. Studholme: My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) referred to the question of hill cattle and hill cow subsidy. We know the importance of making the best use of our uplands in this country, and my right hon. Friend knows that I have been worried about this question of the review of the hill cow subsidy. We know that my right hon. Friend has a statutory obligation to review these subsidies and that he is anxious to do the right thing and to be fair. I sincerely trust that in any marginal case where there is doubt, the farmer will be given the benefit of the doubt and treated as generously as possible.
  In paying tribute to my right hon. Friend for what he has done, I should like also to thank my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who has been unfailingly sympathetic and helpful whenever I have brought my troubles and problems to him. The Minister has never courted publicity and whatever he has done, whether it has been popular or unpopular, he has done it believing it to be in the best interests of the industry. He has been a good steward and in the last year has laid the foundations of an effective long-term policy. I therefore hope and believe that the House will roundly reject the Motion.
  8.11 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir H. Studholme), because what I want to say is fairly new to the debate. I say at once that I have no practical experience of agricultural production. I know very little about farming, but I know something about marketing and the distribution of agricultural produce. In particular, I know something about the distribution of meat, and I have a fairly extensive knowledge of the marketing of meat. I introduce into the debate the view of the distributor and, because of my knowledge of retail distribution, the view of the consumer and, because the taxpayer is affected, the view of the taxpayer.
  There is a distinct danger of the debate being dominated by hon. Members who have an expert knowledge of farming, many of them with practical experience. It would be wrong for the debate to be so unbalanced and I propose to balance it by dealing with the view of the distributor and the consumer. I am glad to have heard the opinions of farmers on both sides of the House. I have been anxious to hear something of the controversy about the application of the deficiency payments system to large as against small farmers and especially to small hill farmers as against the large farmers.
  I have been concerned about this because we have been told by the national Press that big business has invaded large-scale fanning which is rapidly becoming commercialised. I do not know whether that is true, but I am told that that is the tendency. If it is true, there arises the question of whether the original purpose of subsidising farming is still justified in those cases where there is intensive commercialism.
  However, what I am eager to discover is whether those connected with the final business of agricultural produce, those who hand it over the shop-counter or deal with it on the butcher's block, are having as far a crack of the whip as the farmer. If in what has been a misapplication of the 1964 legislation, or a miscalculation of imports, the Minister has injured those people, injuring their businesses as well as their relations with the general public, which now believes that the high prices of meat revealed over

  1033
  the last few months mean that butchers have been overcharging, then I am glad to have the opportunity to contradict that impression.
  I want the original idea of subsidising agriculture to be effective. I want there to be equity between the big and small producer and I want the use of the taxpayer's money to be reflected in the prices of meat, milk, bread, eggs and so on. I am not the only one thinking like that. That view is expressed in a leading article in The Guardian this morning. I do not grumble about British farmers being subsidised—indeed, before I have finished I shall have questioned whether the subsidies are enough—if subsidies keep prices stable and low and keep agriculture efficient.
  Even though there have been great increases in the totals of subsidies over the last few years, I am not one of those who grumble about those totals, because I believe that subsidies have helped towards greater efficiency in British agriculture. I question whether they have yet met the need to keep prices low and stable commensurate with what has been paid.
  I come from a non-agricultural district. The last farm in my area has now been sold because the farmer found that he could get more from ground rents for the new houses built on his land than he could from farming it. I have discussed the economic problems of this country with many industrial workers. They all agree that the payment of subsidies to agriculture has been justified, but they do not like the attitude adopted by the Government in recent times. They do not like the "go-as-you-please" attitude of the Government, because they consider that it has resulted in the Government adopting the motto that nothing matters.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) referred to the Minister adopting a disguise to enable him to put a certain point of view to the small farmer. Workers in the heavy industry think that the Minister must be very good at amateur dramatics, and that at the moment he is disguised as Micawber waiting for something to turn up. They take that view because they do not consider that they are getting a fair crack of the whip. They do not consider that
  1034
  the latest meat prices are justified in view of the subsidies which are being paid. They agree that it is right to pay subsidies to farmers, but only if those subsidies are properly controlled. They are convinced that something is wrong somewhere.
  Two years ago the Minister brought in a Supplementary Estimate for about £98 million, £68 million of which was to subsidise cattle. At that time there was no problem about importing foreign cattle. There was a good flow, we were at the peak kill in this country, and bacon pigs were being fattened for pork and pushed on to the market. This resulted in the British taxpayer having to find an extra £68 million to meet the deficiency payment system. Johnnie Dubb, the British taxpayer, had to pay that extra £68 million. If the original idea for subsidising British agriculture had been really effective, the payment of that money would have been reflected in the price of meat. Paradoxically enough, the retail price of meat increased at a time when the heaviest subsidisation took place, so Johnnie Dubb had to pay twice—first in subsidies, and then in extra retail prices.
  Three months ago the British taxpayer was faced with the reverse situation. Instead of there being a plethora of meat, there was a scarcity. The man in the street was told that as there had been a drought in the Argentine we could not get supplies from there. The Minister knows that we have told Australia and New Zealand to find new markets for their meat. They have turned to Japan, where they get a better wholesale price than they do in this country. The result is that, despite the increase in the numbers of our own cattle, we do not have enough meat to feed our people.
  Sir Richard Glyn: The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) quoted from page 36 of the Intelligence Bulletin issued by the Commonwealth Economic Committee. Page 35 of that document shows that the total cattle sold in Argentina this year was 25 per cent. down on last year. It is not simply a question of the distribution of exports. The problem arises from fewer cattle being available.
  Mr. Winterbottom: I shall deal with that point, but the fact is that Argentine

  1035
  exports to many Continental countries have been greater this year than for many years past. The 1964 Act led to the cutting oft of Argentine supplies at a time when they were vitally necessary here, and the scarcity led to increased prices.
  I speak with knowledge of workers in the distributive trades, in the meat processing factories, and in slaughter houses. It was my job to help to organise these people, before I had the honour of being elected to this House. I have received reports from responsible trade union officers in every district of the country on the meat crisis of the last three months. If I may paraphrase these reports, they say that workers in wholesale meat distribution and those engaged in meat processing are suffering as a result of the meat crisis, as redundancies are common throughout the country. This happened at a time when we were nearing the peak kill. Slaughtermen who should have been working overtime were being sent home on what is called the fall back wage. Workers in the meat processing factories were dismissed as redundant. These serious effects were felt not only in the meat processing factories, but also in the bacon factories. The Minister knows that I have these reports. He has had them.
  I do not say that I disapprove of the 1964 Act in general. It is right that the Government should have some control over imports. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen was very near the truth in what she said; the Minister cut off too many supplies at the wrong time. Even though a mistake was made, I approve of the 1964 Act. I believe that it may prove to be of general benefit.
  My real purpose is speaking is to dispel the illusion that butchers were living in a financial paradise during the meat crisis. On 12 April this year an enterprising journalist went to an auction where a bullock was sold, and traced that bullock right through from the slaughterhouse to the butcher's block, weighing everything and comparing prices. He gave a factual report to his newspaper. I thought that I would do the same thing in respect of a bullock of the same weight, so I went to a butcher friend of mine and we traced a bullock—
  1036
  20 months old and 952 lbs. on the hoof-right through until the stage where my butcher friend bought it from the wholesaler.
  The farmer who sold the bullock did not get very much profit. Although, after 20 months of looking after it and spending about £70 or £71, he made a profit of only £20. That prompted me to think that our farm subsidies were not quite as good as they might be. The bullock eventually became two sides of beef; the hide, the offal, and the hoofs had disappeared. The carcase, or the two sides, then weighed about 530 lbs. The butcher then had to start trimming and boning, and by the time he had done that he had 410 lbs. of meat, for which he had paid 2s. 7½d. a lb. He paid about £69 for the whole carcase.
  He had 410 lbs. of meat, and the price of the highest cut was 8s. 6d. a lb. Many people would think that he would get 8s. 6d. a lb. for the whole of the 410 lbs. Nothing of the kind. It is not possible to get so much fillet steak, rump steak and porterhouse steak out of one bullock. Half of that 410 lbs. he had to sell at less than cost price because it was rough stuff. When we finished reckoning up we found that he had made £11 on two sides of a bullock that had cost him £69.
  Whatever the Verdon Smith Committee may say and whatever mistakes it may have made about the profits that go to the wholesaler, in terms of gross value, 1d. per lb. is usually charged, and this is reduced to ¼d. per lb. net. For a bullock of the type I have referred to the profit will be £1. Nor does the farmer make a tremendous profit. Therefore, in my view taking the situation as a whole the general public is not unfairly treated. Surely the time has come when what is happening on the production side of industry and the distribution side should be more fully revealed in the interests of an educated democracy, so that people may understand completely.
  I do not wish to deal too harshly with the Government. I condemn them only for making a mistake. It was a costly mistake for some. When I visit old people in my constituency and ask them what they have to eat I find that rarely has it included the best cuts of meat. When old people who have—as most of them have—given of their best in the

  1037
  service of their country and industry—cannot afford to buy meat, at the time of life when they are going down the Western slope, something should be done to remedy such a serious state of affairs.
  As was said in the leading article in The Guardian this morning, there should be a complete review of the system of production and distribution, so that there can be a more complete understanding on the part of the general public.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: I hope that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Winterbottom) will forgive me if I do not follow him to closely into the intricacies of the meat trade apart from saying that he made a very energetic and interesting speech. I wish to refer to two outstanding speeches which might be regarded as the first and the last, namely; the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Boston), with which he began his Parliamentary life, and the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), which will probably be his last Parliamentary speech. I reiterate what has been said by other hon. Members, that we hope to hear the hon. Member for Faversham on many future occasions.
  To be perhaps more controversial, I wish to record my regret that the hon. Lady the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) should have referred to the ex-president of the National Farmers' Union in the way in which she did. I knew Mr. Turner, as he was then, extremely well, and in common with many other people who met him when he was president I have the utmost confidence in him.
  This has been a varied and an interesting debate. The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) took us through the "paddy fields" of Wales and the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) went into great detail about an egg-processing plant in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Knowing my hon. Friend, we may be sure that this matter can be safely left in his hands to be dealt with impartially and fairly without the hon. Member for Devon, North sticking a long and inquiring nose
  1038
  into it. I should have thought that there were quite a number of matters in North Devon, some of which have made headlines in the national Press, to which the hon. Member could well turn with more satisfaction to his constituents and possibly to Members of Parliament who are responsible for adjoining areas.
  Mr. F. H. Hayman: The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) is being less than fair to the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe). He drew attention to a case concerning action by the Egg Marketing Board. There was no reflection on the Parliamentary Secretary. Those of us who know something of the case felt that the hon. Member for Devon, North made a good point in suggesting that there should be some further inquiry.
  Mr. Farr: I am obliged to the hon. Member far his views. Of course, one can interpret the action of the hon. Member for Devon, North in differing ways. Some of us think that he might have read about the case for the first time in the newspapers on Sunday and believed that he could get a bit of publicity out of it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
  All hon. Members, particularly those on this side of the House, are extremely grateful to the Opposition for releasing a Supply Day for this debate. It is true to say that the countryside has never been in better trim than it is today. It is also true that in the past 10 years farmers—and many of us on both sides of the House live close to the land—have grown to have more confidence in their Government—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Nonsense.
  Mr. Farr:—than they ever had in the years 1946 to 1951 when farmers could sell whatever they grew. Today they are producing under entirely different conditions.
  It is so much more difficult to produce goods and satisfy those who produce them from the land when in many parts of the world there is a surplus of food. That is quite different from satisfying farmers when people will virtually eat anything that the farmers turn out. The picture is very different today. Production statistics do not lie. Production has

  1039
  increased, fertility yields have improved, and efficiency has improved beyond imagination. This largely is due to the imagination of successive Conservative Governments who have encouraged and financed modernisation throughout the industry.
  The old picture of the perhaps gaitered farmer or farm rustic is still with us, but in the fields in the past decade he has been joined by a younger, more vigorous man dressed in a boiler suit or a pair of blue overalls, who in his way is a mechanical wizard. The picture of the old farmer with his stick is slowly being replaced by that of the more versatile, younger man in overalls. That transformation is not the result of an accident but has been encouraged by successive Conservative legislation.
  Referring again to modernisation, I point out that increased efficiency in agriculture in the past decade has amounted to about £250 million in total. It does not need a statistician of the calibre of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) to work out that in another 10 years at this rate under good Conservative Government efficiency will improve by another £250 million. At that rate, we shall be going a long way to providing still the cheapest and best food in the world, with the greatest variety for the British housewife, but at the same low prices in the future without the same amount of Government support as has been given in the past.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: The hon. Gentleman has drawn a picture of successive Tory Governments bringing about an evolution from the old style farmer to the man in the boiler suit. This has occurred in every country in the world, even in Communist countries. It has nothing to do with Tory Governments.
  Mr. Farr: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is referring to Scotland when he speaks of every other country in the world. All I can say is that many farms in the great majority of countries on the Continent of Europe have never felt the wheels of the petrol engine vehicle or the tractor. There is a vast difference.
  The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) is no fool.
  Mr. G. Brown: Would my hon. Friend say that about the hon. Gentleman?
  Mr. Farr: I see the hon. Member for Workington looking a little surprised. However, he knows that in this Conservative basket of eggs there are no bad ones to pull out. Many of us on this side were wondering why he had chosen this subject for discussion, and, before we heard him, we thought he might take the opportunity to elaborate the new, vital and vivid Socialist policy for agriculture which awaits an expectant Britain.
  We waited with interest to hear what he would say, but we heard virtually nothing at all about Socialist policy. We heard very little of the detail of the 15 points to which the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) referred in his speech at Swaffham, which, we understood, represented the blueprint for a Socialist agricultural policy for the coming years. I shall, therefore, be unique on this side of the House, perhaps, in referring to that speech of the right hon. Gentleman. He will forgive me if I do not go through it all. I wish to refer to the summary at the end of it and ask him whether he will be good enough, for the benefit of the House and the country, to elaborate some of the matters which are not as clear as we should like.
  The fifteenth point is:
  "A Socialist policy would considerably widen the scope of the Forestry Commission for the benefit of all employed in the industry."
  That sounds laudable enough, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the past year or two, an expanded forestry programme has been agreed upon which now calls for the planting of 450,000 acres over a ten-year period as opposed to 300,000 acres before.
  Second, how will the additional land be obtained? Is it to be confiscated by compulsory powers, as, I understand, is suggested in the Scottish version of "Signposts for the Sixties", whether people want to dispose of their land or not? We should like to know whether land is to be nationalised for this purpose.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Why not?
  Mr. Farr: The hon. Gentleman asks, "Why not nationalise the land in Scotland?" Perhaps that is what the

  1041
  hierarchy of his party think. But I want to know what the right hon. Gentleman thinks, because he, I believe, speaks a little more for the Labour Party as a whole.
  Mr. G. Brown: Only a little more.
  Mr. Farr: The second point which intrigues many of us on this side is in Socialist land commission. Farmers, especially if the Socialists come to power, face a pretty sticky time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] At one end of the scale, farmers near towns, villages or any built-up areas—there are many thousands of such farmers—will have all their fringe land confiscated by some statutory body. At what cost will that land be taken from the agricultural community? Will this statutory body compensate the farmers at less than the price they paid for it? At the other end of the scale, if a farmer wants to leave his farm, apparently the land commission will take over the farm and presumably put another person in it and let him carry on farming under the auspices of the State.
  It seems to me that there will be two types of land confiscation, whatever the Socialists call it—first, the peripheral land round villages, towns and developing areas; and, secondly, willy-nilly, here and there, even in South Ayrshire, land is to be confiscated by people farming and put to some dubious use by the State.
  Another point which amuses me considerably in the summary by the Socialist Party of its agricultural policy is point No. 3, which is that they will ensure the sensible regulation of the major food imports through commodity commissions. Actually, it does not amuse me. It frightens me to think of the Socialist commodity commissions—their cereal commissions, their meat commissions. A member of the Socialist Party has said that one of the first things the Socialists will do when they form their meat commission is get rid of all the slaughterhouses and centralise the slaughterhouse policy in two or three big State-owned abattoirs.
  This gives me an opportunity to compare this wholesale confiscation policy of the Socialists with the policy the Conservative Government have followed since the Slaughterhouse Act, 1958. We
  1042
  have encouraged the small slaughterhouse man to remain in business, provided that he is efficient. In my constituency, there is a small slaughterhouse man who caters for two or three villages. The Government have made him, much against his will, spend almost £5,000 on new equipment—chilling equipment, refrigeration equipment, and sanitary arrangements in his slaughterhouse to bring it up to date.
  Mr. G. Brown: Who is he?
  Mr. Farr: The butcher concerned is Marcus Stevens, if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to know. This butcher has been asked to spend nearly £5,000 on this project of making a really good first-class slaughterhouse. The Conservative Government do not believe in their complete abolition because they happen to be nuisances under the centralisation of the whole slaughterhouse industry under two or three State-owned corporations. On the contrary, the Conservative Government have encouraged the small man to remain, if he is efficient and does a good job.
  I have had the chance to mention only three of the main points in the Socialist fabrication for agriculture. Before I close, I want to refer to the speech of the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton). The hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I know, if I, as one who has attended these agricultural debates pretty frequently, say that I have heard previously one or two of the points he made so ably and efficiently. In particular, I hear the tied cottage plea by the hon. Member every time with irritation. He thinks that this is something of which the Conservative Party should be ashamed, but has he really gone into this matter? What is the difference between a tied cottage for, say, a tractor driver and one in which the country policeman lives? What is the difference between one tied cottage and another which the vicar has for his rectory?
  Mr. Hilton: What about the Prime Minister's cottage?
  Mr. Farr: Will the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West tell me the difference between the tied house in which the village school teacher lives and the tied cottage which is the home of the local bank manager? I am sure that,

  1043
  on reflection, the hon. Member will see that there are many industries and jobs where tied houses are essential.
  Mr. Hilton: Since the hon. Member has asked me so many questions, will he tell me of one instance where a vicar, bank manager, policeman or school teacher living in a tied cottage has been turned out of it with nowhere to go?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): Order. The hon. Gentleman has spoken once and it is not in order for him to try to make another speech.
  Mr. Farr: I am obliged to you for that ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, which I will respect and not refer to the hon. Member's remarks, except to say that if he will see me afterwards or outside the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—I will give him all the written evidence he needs.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. George Brown: Although I did not find the whole of the speech of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) completely agreeable, he was, at least, the first hon. Member opposite not only to ask questions about our policy but to appear to have taken the trouble to have read the speech which I made almost a year ago, at Swaffham, for the purpose of stating our position. He had certainly read it, but I wish that I could say that he had understood it. However, I am grateful for his having read it.
  For me, coming back to these fields which I used to walk, after so many years, is a very great pleasure. It is also rewarding to find that the problems one left behind so long ago are still being trotted out, indicating that the Government have still not yet found answers to them. Although it is a long time since I last walked these fields, I must say that I used to regard these matters, as I still do, as of vital importance to the national economy. My entry into the debate today leads me to say that these matters are still of extreme importance to the nation.
  I am sure that the whole House will join me in saying how impressed we were by the maiden speech of my hon.
  1044
  Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Boston). It may be a partisan observation to say that he won a most gallant and distinguished victory. But it is by no means partisan to say that all hon. Members were impressed by his first speech here. I have told him privately how impressed I was and that he did very much better than I did when I made my maiden speech. I hope that these remarks will encourage him to enter our debates regularly in future.
  The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland was in some respects astonishing. It could be divided into three parts. First, his speech was fairly consistent with that of any of his colleagues might make nowadays—wholly complacent. He gave the impression that there was no problem, no shortage of food supplies, no high prices in the shops and no bother about future production. Everything was being beautifully done, according to the right hon. Gentleman. All I need say is that his remarks need not be answered by me. He was effectively, elegantly and vigorously answered by his right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), whose answer was more valuable for the purpose of debating than mine would be, particularly that part of his speech in which he spoke about beef supplies.
  The second part of the Secretary of State's speech dealt with the residual problems. He went on for a very long time reciting problems that are not only 13 years old, but on many of which I remember being given very much the same brief rather more than 13 years ago. He trotted them out in much the same terms, and they are clearly still problems 13 years after the Conservatives succeeded us as the Government.
  The third part of the right hon. Gentleman's compound was what was quite clearly 10 minutes of Central Office political padding—the obvious sub-heading was "Part III 'We want to know.'" I must say that for men who have not been able to find an answer to a single one of the problems we left behind 13 years ago to say that they want from us, in a few weeks, answers to all the problems that they are leaving behind seems to be going rather far.
  It is time that this came to an end. We get it in every debate, and it is not

  1045
  peculiar to the Conservatives. It has happened before. They are not the first Administration, in their dying days, to think of the device of asking the Opposition, who are clearly about to become the Government, what they would say. It was done before them. It was done by the Labour Party towards the end of our period of government, and it was answered classically by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). I commend this answer to the Minister of Agriculture and also to the Prime Minister.
  The right hon. Member for Woodford was speaking as Leader of the Opposition in a debate in which, quite clearly—I have not read the whole debate, but it is apparent from the context—a number of hon. Members on the Government side had been asking, "Tell us what you will do." The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "What was the reply of the Government? It was the same as they are so anxious to use today, namely, ' Please say exactly what your economies would be.' They do not ask this in order to gain good advice but in order that their canvassers at by-elections, or at a General Election, can go from door to door and endeavour to accuse"—
  us, in this case—
  "of being the enemies of social welfare and improvement."
  The right hon. Gentleman ended that part of his speech by saying:
  "That has certainly been the atmosphere in this debate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1949; Vol. 468, c. 1622.]
  He might have been speaking about this debate.
  That was the third part of the Secretary of State's speech, and it has already been dealt with. We have had it for so many years. I imagine that if we went back to the days of Gladstone and Disraeli, or as far back as we like, we would still find it—the old froth of debate.
  The issues that we really have to discuss are stated in part in The Guardian this morning. They are, first, the ensuring of supplies of food to the consumers, and, secondly, the prices in the shops—not in Smithfield Market, as the Secretary of State said. I do not know about Scotland, but here in London the housewives do not buy in Smithfield. What we must have in mind are the prices at which the food arrives at and is charged to the housewives in the shops. The Guardian
  1046
  thought that to be the whole story, but it is only part.
  The issues we have to settle go further. They involve the conditions of production—that is, rewards, terms of work, return on capital for the farmers, and the conditions of the farm workers, the reconciliation of that with our necessary external trade policy, and the contribution that the taxpayer—no matter that he is also consumer—should be required to make to them.
  In dealing with these issues, there have been some reflections in the debate to which I would refer. There has been a good deal of emphasis on the expansion in agricultural production for which this industry has been responsible. I heard particularly the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton), among others, on this subject. Of course, it is absolutely true. I myself quoted at the Guildhall, at the opening of the Dairy Exhibition, the very figures to which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State referred. There has been a tremendous expansion by the agricultural industry, far beyond anything that the rest of the nation understands. I entirely agree about all this. Our balance of payments problem would look absolutely impossible but for the tremendous expansion for which the industry is responsible. There would be no chance of touching that problem but for this expansion.
  But the point is—I do not think that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite really face up to this—that this expansion has been left very much to chance already. It has occurred in all kinds of unrelated parts of the industry, and it has caused problems which have always been dealt with only after the event. It has been unrelated to the world food situation and to the level of prices and, consequent upon that, of taxpayers' payments.
  The Government have continually been trying to deal with the expansion subsequent to its happening, and this has led to the tremendous fluctation in producers' prices and the general downward trend in producers' incomes over the last few years'. Although we applaud the production expansion, many a farmer—particularly many a small farmer and many a farm worker—has had cause to regret it because of the farm price changes which have been made in the subsequent Price Reviews.

  1047
  Another thing which has characterised the debate has been the repeated references to the 1947 Act and the claim from the Government Benches that we are all 1947 "Acters" now. We are aware that we are all land nationalisers now. The Minister of Housing and Local Government is one of the great land nationalisers. We are all planners and 1947 "Acters" now. One would never believe that in the Standing Committee we went through enormous agonies to get the essential Part I of the Act through against total and maintained opposition all the way through.
  But my criticism is not that the Tories have come to the repentance stool and confessed. One must hope for that, even on the part of Tories. My criticism is that they have not maintained the 1947 Act. The price guarantees provided for in the Act have been abandoned. The 1957 Act did that. Part II, the other half of the bargain—the provision for efficiency on the part of the producers—has been repealed. The Tories repealed that one because they abandoned the other.
  The provisions about tenant security and rent control have been abandoned. Part IV of the Act, which provided for a smallholdings ladder for the small man, has been made totally nugatory by the Tories. The right hon. Gentleman well knows this because he has had a conflict with me about the way in which he has been treating the Derbyshire Smallholdings Committee, which wanted to do the job and has been totally prevented by him.
  So the Tories have destroyed the Act, the Act which they tried to oppose when it came in. They have destroyed it during its lifetime. All this sudden pretence that they are in favour of the Act is merely something put up for the greater misleading, as they would hope, of the farmers during the coming General Election. The consequences of all this have fallen on the taxpayers, the consumers, the producers and the distributors, and it is not a bad thing to look at how they have fallen.
  As for the taxpayer, the consequence of the Government's agricultural policy has been that his requirement for support has gone up by about £100 million—almost 50 per cent.—in the last 10 years.
  1048
  The prices to the consumer have gone up. One can go over a whole range of things from bread to meat, taking in butter, milk, sugar, tea and margarine on the way, and the prices of these commodities have gone up by anything from one and a half to two or three times in the same period. The taxpayer is paying half as much again, and so is the consumer. The producer's returns have gone down by about 17 per cent. in real terms—not in money terms—since 1951.
  If one analysed the situation a bit closer and looked at the N.F.U. farm account scheme, one would find that the actual amount that is left as a return on capital in that period is hardly existent. The taxpayer is paying more, the consumer is paying more, and the producer is getting less. What is the answer to this equation? The answer is in the distributor, and it is quite fascinating to look at the Verdon Smith Report and the N.F.U. survey on the question of distributors' margins. Whereas everybody else is paying more or receiving less, the distributors' margins—that is, retailers and wholesalers—for meat have gone up by anything from one-third to one-half, and in the case of the cereal people by anything from 64 per cent. to 100 per cent. These are the men who have gained out of this policy. I repeat—the taxpayer up, the consumer up, the producer down. The only beneficiaries from this policy have been the distributors and, for the most part, the wholesalers.
  Present agricultural policy makes little or no contribution to the solution of problems that face us and which have been mentioned by hon. Members opposite. I was immensely impressed when I heard the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton. The tremendous problem of the hungry nations of the world is with us and will be ahead of us for years to come. It is a problem which is compounded of many things but, in part, of getting some food surpluses from the well-developed agricultural nations to those other countries. Our present agricultural policy makes no contribution to that at all. Indeed, at the very point where we might be about to produce a surplus, action is taken by the Government to stop it.
  The policy makes no contribution to the problem of the under-developed nations, the poor nations, which might

  1049
  also be the hungry nations. This is a different problem. The poor nations have primary products to sell, and they therefore need long-term contracts, assurances and security. The policy makes no provision for them. In a sense we are making things worse because the agreement which the Minister made not so long ago with the Australians and others was that we should provide a floor from which we could buy from them, but no ceiling. It is not surprising that when Mr. Khrushchev was asked, "Please do not sell wheat to us below X price" he simply could not understand the ways of capitalism.
  There was a time when I could not understand this. I sympathise with Mr. Khrushchev. Once I could not understand him. In this case, I can. He said that he could not understand why the suppliers should be asked, "Please do not supply us cheaply; please charge us more". We are saying, "We will put a floor in, but we will not put a ceiling in". We are putting ourselves in an impossible position with the developed nations, but we are making no contribution to the under-developed nations.
  The third respect in which the agricultural policy of the Government is making no contribution is this. It has brought to a virtual halt the reorganisation and redevelopment of home agriculture. The Government have virtually adopted a Pontius Pilate attitude of washing their hands of reorganisation and redevelopment of our home farming. It is quite true that the election year review—I was fascinated to see the way in which some hon. Members hid behind the electioneering review—like the Price Reviews conducted in previous election years, has partially obscured the view. I think that I am right in saying that the only time that we get an agreed review is in an election year.
  Despite that, there is surely no doubt that over the last 13 years the Conservatives have increased the farmers' problems without helping the interests of the consumer, the taxpayer or the overseas supplier, and especially the Commonwealth overseas supplier. I emphasise that, while all of those who come from what the hon. Member for Harborough called "the shires" think a lot of our farmers, let us keep in mind
  1050
  when debating agricultural policy in this House that it is as much a matter of the consumer and the taxpayer as it is of our constituents in the shires.
  The issues for settlement, if we can settle them, seem to me to be these. First, to establish the headings of a policy which will resolve or mitigate the conflict which clearly exists between the interests of the taxpayer, consumer and producer. It seems to us that the way to do that is by restoring long-term confidence and belief in stability of market and prices to the producers; to ensure that the consumers benefit out of this by virtue of guarantees of supplies and stability of price; to justify it all to the taxpayer in terms of better use of basic national resources; and an ability to align our external trade and even foreign policy aims with home market economic direction and development.
  I need not spend more time proving that the Government have failed to do any of those. The major interest on the benches opposite today has, once again, almost flatteringly, been in how we would deal with it, and how we will deal with it, in a few weeks' time.
  As the hon. Member for Harborough pointed out, in a speech on 17th July last which I am surprised hon. Members opposite have not paid mote attention to, I set out the matter in a number of points In the time remaining to me I will rapidly go through them again.
  Mr. J. M. L. Prior: More rapidly then ever.
  Mr. Brown: Hon. Members opposite do not mind spending six hours in asking the questions. The thought that I would give any answers is an awful nuisance to them.
  Mr. Prior: The trouble is that we know all this stuff, but we want it spelled out in greater detail.
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman—and he is not unique in this—spoke before he thought.
  I will give as much time to this as I can. There are six broad headings of the policy that we will do our best to implement when we come to power. First, we must attach much more

  1051
  importance to and somehow try to succeed much better than hon. Members opposite have done in establishing a world food plan.
  Nobody imagines that this is solely in our hands—of course it is not—but much greater leadership must come from here. This involves two different things. One is the production and distribution of surpluses from the developed agricultural countries, of whom we are one, as an attack on hunger and the second is the negotiating of long-term commodity agreements for our requirements with the underdeveloped primary producers overseas.
  I recognise that proposals have been made at Geneva by the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, but, alas, they are so late. We are all a bit cynical in this country about the deathbed repentances of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. People overseas are much more so. The proposals which have been made by the right hon. Gentleman at Geneva are so late and so timid and there is so little for which they provide. Secondly, we have to provide an orderly and integrated machinery for the assessment of our own requirements and possible supplies and for the marketing of those supplies. Around this has turned a good deal of the discussion from the Government side of the House today.
  We have said that there are two ways of doing that. They are complementary. One is by setting up commodity commissions and the other is encouraging the industry to establish rather more producer boards with real marketing powers. I do not mean some of the half-baked things that pass for marketing boards these days. Nobody will want me to defend the case for producer marketing boards. I am sure that we are at one on this problem. The problem with right hon. and hon. Members opposite seems to me to be about commodity commissions. In paragraph 16 of the speech which I made at Swaffham, rather more than a year ago, which must have been analysed in the Ministry, I set out the way in which I thought that commodity commissions could work. There are a variety of ways in which they coud operate.
  1052
  One of the functions of a commodity commission is to work for the Minister, who, obviously, would retain full and final power. Ultimate decisions must be those of the Minister. They could not be anything other in any Government. The commodity commissions must have the duty of assessing supplies and requirements and, subject ultimately to the decisions of Ministers, the integrating of the home supplies, which are obtained via the home producer boards, and the overseas supplies, which may be wholly or in part obtained by the commodity commission, and then integrated and traded in by the private trade or by the commodity commission. It could be either.
  Mr. Denys Bullard: It sounds a mess.
  Mr. Brown: I rather waited for that; I was sure that somebody would say it.
  I wonder whether right hon. and hon. Members opposite have looked at the way in which the Sugar Board operates. There is a Sugar Board—I see the Prime Minister nodding—which is in the same position as a commodity commission. It could be called a commission. There is a Sugar Corporation, which could be called a marketing board. The Sugar Board buys from overseas—the Commonwealth—and the Sugar Corporation buys from home. The private trade buys anything else from overseas, "Mr. Cube" is happy and Tate and Lyle stays in business.
  The Sugar Board operates for the community. There is a price pooling arrangement. There are long-term contracts for our suppliers, there are long-term contracts for our producers here at home and the whole thing works.
  Mr. Bullard: Would the right hon. Gentleman say—this is a genuine inquiry—how that would have helped in the recent meat situation? Whatever arrangement we had with the Argentine, it could not have helped. A commodity commission could not deal with that sort of situation.
  Mr. Brown: The hon. Member thought that it was a mess, but, quite clearly, it works at the moment, and it could work in other fields, too. There are a number of other ways in which it

  1053
  could work, as I set out originally. It would work with any other commodity. Hon. Gentlemen think it is funny to mimic and to put their fingers up. If I knew the hon. Gentleman's constituency I would name him. It is the hon. Gentleman the Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells). I am sure this his constituents would think that two fingers held up like that is not upholding them.
  It can be done in other ways with other commodities, but there are just three or four other things which I should like to deal with.
  The third thing we would do would be to maintain the Price Review, not simply as it is done now, but we should return to the idea of prices for assured quantities and try to move away from this terrible annual fight over the whole field, and to move as quickly as we could with long-term global decisions, but with annual changes with changes in production costs and other things of that kind—which is not what is done now. I thought the right hon. Gentleman was going to say that is not what is done now.
  Fourthly, we should give much more assistance and encouragement to producers—in research, through the Agricultural Research Council, and so on, and an extension of it through the advisory service which I think the Conservative Party quite wantonly reduced in the field of its operation; through greater training facilities for farmers and farm workers; through much greater credit provisions, which my noble Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) was talking about, for small fanners, and also for cooperatives for requisites, operations and sales.
  Fifthly, we would have arrangements to enable those who, because they are marginal farmers, or are farming marginal land—and the two things are quite different—or have holdings which are too small, wish to go out, to go out decently, through the land commission paying them annuities or lump-sum payments, and assuming their land, thus being able to help the regrouping of units to make it easier for young would-be farmers, who are competent and have the capital, to get land.
  1054
  Finally, we should insist upon much better conditions for the employed workers. We know that the number of employed workers on the land must decrease. We recognise that it is decreasing and will decrease. The tragic thing is that far too big a proportion of the decrease is among those aged between 25 and 41. I think that I am right in saying that it is about 50 per cent. of the whole. It is certainly very large. Yet it is that very age-group we want to retain on the land. This is partly a matter of wages, partly a matter of conditions. I am glad to repeat now in the House what I said outside, that a Labour Government would introduce legislation to ensure that the agricultural wages board can bring in sick pay schemes for farm workers.
  We would end the tied cottage tragedy. That does not mean not recognising that tied cottages are required. [Laughter.] That sort of giggle shows the incompetence of hon. Members opposite. Tied cottages there will always have to be for a limited number of jobs on the land, but it means recognising that evictions cannot take place until alternative accommodation has been found. It means providing a genuine farm ladder of opportunities via small holdings for good workers in an industry where opportunites for becoming managerial people are so few.
  This is our answer to the problem. These are the headings of an agricultural policy which would make sense for those who live in the shires, for farming, whether farmers or farm workers, and all others, who, as consumers or taxpayers, are very dependent on this vital area of our economy.
  I trust that the Motion will be supported in the Division Lobby.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames): I am delighted to be able to add my congratulations: to those of many who have spoken in the debate to the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Boston) on his most thoughtful maiden speech, which all of us who were lucky enough to hear it enjoyed, not only for its matter but for the manner in which it was delivered. Like the right hon. Member for Belper

  1055
  (Mr. G. Brown), I have had the opportunity of saying this privately to the hon. Member, and we hope that in the immediate future we will hear him often.
  The hon. Member referred to the need for encouraging housing and industrial development to take place on the worse, as opposed to the better, agricultural land. I agree with him. This is a most important matter, and I assure him that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and I and our officials are always in the closest touch to ensure that when agricultural land is taken, as of course it must be with an expanding population and the industry which goes with it, whenever possible development is channelled towards the worse as opposed to the better agricultural land. The hon. Gentleman referred, in particular, to the Isle of Sheppey in his constituency, and he will of course know that the Isle of Sheppey has some of the better land in his county.
  On a Supply day a year ago we had a debate on agriculture, during which I told the House of the changes which the Government intended to make in their arrangements for food and agriculture both at home and abroad. The debate ranged widely over the fortunes and interests of the industry as a whole. In that debate, the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) said:
  "We endorse the main principle of policy which has now been accepted by the Minister and put forward by him today …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd May, 1963; Vol. 678, c. 455.]
  There was no Division at the end of that debate.
  Today, a year later, the Opposition have put down a Motion:
  "That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to produce an effective long-term policy for British agriculture."
  The hon. Member for Workington and the right hon. Member for Belper have tried their best to make out a case. They have found it very hard indeed, and we know how expert the right hon. Gentleman is at making a case with very little. They have done their best to sustain this argument, and right hard have they found it.
  The right hon. Gentleman based it, first, on the assertion that the consumer was not getting value out of these
  1056
  arrangements; secondly, that we had not moved towards world food agreements and the channelling of food towards the poorer nations; and, thirdly, that agriculture had not prospered over these years as it should have done. I should like to say a word on each.
  Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the last major debate on this subject on 22nd May, 1963. On that occasion we moved to reduce his salary.
  Mr. Soames: But when we came to debate the measures which we had put forward flowing from this, the hon. Gentleman accepted—though I am sure that there were many of his right hon. and hon. Friends who did not readily do so—the line of policy as set out by the Government.
  Dealing with consumer interest, the right hon. Gentleman said that prices had risen in the shops and that the consumer had not benefited. He said that the only person who had benefited was the trader. How have prices risen in recent years? Between 1959 and 1963 the all-items index rose by 2·6 per cent. per annum on average. The food index rose by 1·8 per cent. per annum on average—considerably less than the all-items index. This is because we have the advantage of this particular and unique system of agricultural support; but the fact remains that it has worked, and the food index has risen notably less than the all-items index.
  Of course it is difficult to compare like with like in different years, but as the right hon. Gentleman is saying that everything was marvellous in the garden when he and his party left office and that now it is so much worse, it is worth pointing out that between 1948 and 1952 the reverse was the case. The all-items index rose on average about 6 per cent. a year, and the food index rose by 10 per cent. a year. I do not want to make too much of that point, but I think that it ill becomes the right hon. Gentleman to assert that everything was going splendidly then and that it has gone a lot worse from the point of the consumer since he left office.
  Mr. William Ross: Why not bring the figures up-to-date by giving the 1964 figures?
  Mr. Soames: The right hon. Gentleman talked about world agreements. [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] All that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) is going to ask is what happened in 1964. I have not got the figures, but I am certain that the same thing happened in these few years.
  The right hon. Gentleman made much of the fact that we have been in power for all these years and that there are no world agreements. It takes more than one country to make a world agreement. The right hon. Gentleman also asked what part the Government had played in working towards a responsible world food policy. We are the biggest commercial market for food in the world, and in the past year we have obtained an agreement on cereals with a number of major agricultural producing countries. We have also made a market sharing agreement on bacon. We have also gone a long way, and in fact we have won agreement in principle, over meat supplies in general. There is no other country which has taken it as far as this. We have discussed this agreement in the Kennedy Round in G.A.T.T.; we hope that out of this will grow further agreements. As all hon. Members know, the Kennedy Round and G.A.T.T. are labouring under many difficulties, but we have made our position abundantly clear.
  Then there was the United Nations Trade and Development Conference, at which my right hon. Friend put forward a number of propositions. That conference was also going forward fairly stickily, and it is quite understandable that that should be so, because so many interests are pulling in different directions. But, if any country could be said to have taken a lead in this conference, it was this country with the policies of Her Majesty's Government, as put forward by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development.
  We are the third largest contributor to the World Food Programme. Our contribution is small at the moment, but that is because the United Nations, which is running the programme, realises that this is a matter where one cannot simply jump in and say, "Let everybody grow as much food as he likes; we shall channel it to the poorer coun-
  1058
  tries". The programme must be organised and properly arranged, and this is being done by Dr. Boerma. I do not believe that anyone who has met Dr. Boerma and discussed the programme with him thinks that he is running it in any other than the right way. Dr. Boerma and the F.A.O. know the support that they have had and will continue to have from Her Majesty's Government in the development of this world food programme.
  We share the feeling expressed by hon. Members opposite of some disappointment that more progress has not been made towards further world food agreements, but I do not believe that anyone can say that this Government have not played their part, and more than played their part, in working towards that end.
  The next most common theme running through the debate concerned marketing.
  Mr. Harold Davies: In 1958 agreements were made with New Zealand and Australia, to operate until 1967, for the import of commodities. Those agreements came to an end during the Common Market negotiations, with the result that Commonwealth commodity arrangements were in a state of upheaval. We have not heard anything from the Minister about the way in which the Government upset the agricultural world by their action.
  Mr. Soames: Of course, this is not true. The agreements were not upset. They are still in existence. They were not upset by the Common Market negotiations in any way whatsoever.
  On the question of marketing, horticultural products, cereals and meat are the three major commodities which require help. It has been generally agreed that as a result of the Act we passed this year we have gone a long way, with the modernising of horticultural markets, grants for growers and co-operatives and the preparations for the introduction of grading. We had all this in great detail in Committee, but there was precious little to show that the party opposite could think of any additions to our proposals. [Interruption.] As the Bill has come before the House on Third Reading—[Interruption.] I agree that many changes were suggested by hon. Members on both sides in Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I meant that I do

  1059
  not believe that in the Third Reading debate hon. Members opposite made many more suggestions.
  The question of marketing in cereals and meat is a big subject, which merits a debate of its own. Improvements in the marketing of both cereals and meat must be made. First, we need better market intelligence—more of it and its better dissemination—and, secondly, we need a more even flow of goods from our farms to the markets. These are the two major features which are called for, and it is towards these that we are working.
  We have not had a report on cereals similar to the Report of the Verdon Smith Committee on meat, but I believe that here there is considerable scope. There must be agreement between the farmers and the trade, those who have to operate the machinery, and I believe that with such agreement it is possible to obtain improvement in marketing information and to have a better plan. Equally is this so in respect of meat, and here we have the benefit of advice from the Verdon Smith Committee on meat marketing, which is much more complex.
  The hon. Member for Workington made great play of the fact that as yet there has been no announcement of the Government's decision on the Report of the Verdon Smith Committee. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider this matter with some sense of responsibility. The Committee took two years to produce its ideas. So far we have had three months not only to consider and analyse the ideas of the Committee on this complex industry and the recommendations it has made, but also to seek the views of the many interests concerned.
  The hon. Gentleman will agree—I hope that he will—that the Government must give themselves the necessary time to consider these matters. We shall make up our minds as soon as we can consistent with what we believe to be the right answer—
  Mr. Peart Mr. Peart rose—
  Mr. Soames: One second. The N.F.U. is working intensively on its own ideas, and other interests concerned are equally anxious to come in—
  Mr. Peart: Why will not the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Soames: Some discussions have taken place between us and more will be needed—
  Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman challenged me.
  Mr. Soames:—and all interests are equally anxious that there should be a right solution. For this more time is needed. In answer to the hon. Member for Workington—I think I know the point he was going to put to me, and I think I can answer without having the benefit of his question—for this more time is needed, and I cannot and will not pin down the Government to any fixed date.
  Mr. G. Brown: The public is entitled to know.
  Mr. Soames: We are all entitled to know, but there is no obligation on the Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—
  Mr. Peart: Give way.
  Mr. Soames: There is no obligation on a Government to reach a decision on a matter as complex as this in such a way as to time the announcement to fit in with a Supply Day chosen by the Opposition—
  Mr. Brown: It will be you next time.
  Mr. Soames: May I say a quick word upon the question of a commodity commission. The hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) told us that he was answering a question by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland about what the Labour Party meant by a commodity commission. In fact, I think that the hon. Gentleman was telling us what he meant by a commodity commission. This has been put out in the Liberal plan for farming. Target prices would be decided each year. A commodity commission for cereals and meat would come on to the market and prevent prices falling below the target price. This would be a commodity commission such as has existed in Europe, with target prices that are high in our estimation. The commodity commission takes a lot of meat off the market to ensure that the price remains the same and would mean the end of the 1947 and 1957 Acts.
  Mr. Thorpe Mr. Thorpe rose—
  Mr. Soames: When the right hon. Member for Belper—
  Hon. Members: Give way.
  Mr. Soames:—was talking about a commodity commission he genuinely tried to explain to the House what he had in mind. He spoke about sugar and said that we should have something rather like the Sugar Board—
  Mr. G. Brown: I said we may have.
  Mr. Soames: All right, we may have something like the Sugar Board, presumably for meat and for cereals. Of course, the Sugar Board is in operation in order to enable the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement to continue. For nine years out of 10 it has been buying sugar, because of the obligations we feel towards sugar-producing countries, at roughly double the world price of sugar. If this is the concept for a meat commission and a cereals commission there will be a very happy time for the consumer in this country.
  Mr. Brown: Does the Minister think the operation of the Sugar Board a bad thing or a good thing?
  Mr. Soames: For sugar and for the small sugar-producing countries of the Commonwealth it has paid enormous dividends. It is right and proper that the Government should have introduced and kept to the Agreement, but the extent to which Mauritius and the West Indies depend on sugar for a livelihood and our responsibilities towards them are totally different from having a meat commission on the same basis dealing with the Argentine.
  Mr. Brown: But we are buying from the Commonwealth.
  Mr. Soames: We are now hearing that the commissions are to buy from the Commonwealth, but only from the Commonwealth. How then is the Argentine to send her meat here? I do not think we are a lot "forrarder" on this.
  What is the situation in the agricultural industry which has led the Opposition to put down this Motion? The change in the world commercial food markets from a situation of basic under-supply in the post-war years to that of today of potential and not infrequent
  1062
  over-supply has meant that if we were to maintain the advantages of our food and agriculture policy while keeping the costs within the bounds in regard to the taxpayer and the Exchequer, we had first to persuade overseas suppliers to give up rights to unrestricted entry of foodstuffs to cur markets. Secondly, our farmers needed to adapt their thoughts and plans to lay greater emphasis on business management rather than on production almost regardless of cost, which has rightly been the doctrine to which they have been accustomed for a long period of years.
  It was not easy to reconcile the different interests which our home producers and overseas suppliers have in our markets and fit that into the national interests. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton) said, I believe we can claim to have moved a long way this year towards doing that. The alterations we made in our home arrangements were incorporated in the outcome of this year's Review and were done in agreement with the farmers unions. We have made agreements on bacon and cereals with overseas suppliers which imposed limitations, in the first place, quantitatively and in the second place, fiscally on their levels of exports to us. What is more, in the difficult and complex negotiations in the Kennedy Round in the G.A.T.T. the international arrangements which we have made are being widely talked about and considered as a suitable pattern for wider international agreements.
  In the general national interest, we can now look forward to continuing with our system of agricultural support adapted as it has been without imposing an undue or unexpected charge on the Exchequer and the taxpayer and can expect it to provide the advantages of comparatively cheap food in a way which no other agricultural support system is capable of doing. What are the fortunes of the agricultural industry itself?
  Few, indeed, are the countries which are satisfied with the relationship between the incomes of their agricultural population and those of workers in the rest of the economy, especially in times when agricultural production is tending to rise faster than consumer demand. But in this respect we can

  1063
  at least say that, thanks to the efforts and skills of our farmers and farm workers working within the broad lines of policy dictated by the Government, we are high in the international league table. I believe that only Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands have a better record than ourselves in this respect.
  The general tendency throughout the whole of the economy in recent years has been towards larger and, therefore, fewer units of production, and agriculture has been no exception. The industry's productivity and incomes have been rising, and the larger income has been shared among fewer farmers.
  At this point, I say a word about the different sections of the industry. Dairy farmers, who in recent years have been through difficult times, with a price squeeze essentially because their production was rising so much faster than demand. The industry have now got these two factors into proper balance again and they are reaping the benefit from it. The pool price last month was 4d. higher than it was two years ago.
  Our pig herd, which had traditionally fluctuated wildly both in terms of numbers and in terms of profitability, is now under the steadying influence of the flexible guarantee arrangements and all pig producers are benefiting from this. Thanks to our bacon agreement, the quantities to be imported from abroad are now limited and controlled.
  Our beef herd, together with the offspring from the dairy herd, today satisfies about 70 per cent. of our requirements for beef, a higher percentage than ever before, and with the two increases we have made in the guaranteed price in the last four years, amounting together to 13s. a cwt., the beef producer is looking forward to the future with a sense of confidence. If any hon. Member doubts this, I ask him to go into Hereford or any other great beef producing county.
  The cereal grower is benefiting from the tremendous improvements in techniques of growing and in the yield of his crops, and he can now be satisfied that his market will not be undermined by unrestricted imports.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: What about early potatoes?
  Mr. Soames: Thanks to the Act which we passed this year, the horticulturist is now looking forward to a period of modernisation, with Government grant, not only of his marketing methods and the markets which he serves but also in his production methods and techniques which, taken together, should notably improve his competitive position.
  Looking back over the past, there have been certain years which have been landmarks in the fortunes of agriculture. The year 1947 was, obviously, one such when the Act was passed which laid the firm foundations for our post-war agricultural policies. The year 1957 was another, when the new Act consolidated this and gave firm assurances for the future. I believe that this year will be another, the year in which our support system was geared, through import controls and standard quantities, to fulfil its purpose in the changing world supply and demand pattern which we are likely to be living with for a long time.
  What is more, these changes have been brought about in full agreement with our Commonwealth and other suppliers and also with the closest co-operation and agreement of our own industry. This fact should, surely, give us confidence that they are durable arrangements. Let us not forget that they are now enshrined in an Act which, we understand, has the approval of the Opposition.
  Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may say, anyone in close contact with agriculture will aver that its confidence has never been stronger than it is today, and it feels well poised to make a strong and growing contribution to the national economy. Investment is high. Farm land is much sought after. The products of our agricultural industries are highly thought of in Russia, as the recent exhibition made clear. Yet this is the time which the right hon. Gentleman chooses to put down a Motion condemning the Government's agricultural policy. It seems that everyone is out of step except George. The right hon. Gentleman does not believe his own Motion, for he said as much when he spoke at the Mansion House but three weeks ago.
  Mr. Marcus Lipton: Before the right hon. Gentleman concludes—
  Mr. Herbert W. Bowden Mr. Herbert W. Bowden rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
  Question put accordingly, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 274.

  Division No. 120.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  O'Malley, B. K.

  Ainsley, William

  Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

  Oram, A. E.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Gunter, Ray

  Owen, Will

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Padley, W. E.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hannan, William

  Paget, R. T.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Harper, Joseph

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Beaney, Alan

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Parker, John

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Paton, John

  Bence, Cyril

  Healey, Denis

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Benson, Sir George

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Blackburn, F.

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Peart, Frederick

  Blyton, William

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Pentland, Norman

  Boardman, H.

  Hill, J. (Midiothian)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Boston, T. G.

  Hilton, A. V.

  Probert, Arthur

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Holman, Percy

  Rankin, John

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S. W.)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Redhead, E. C.

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Bowles, Frank

  Hoy, James H.

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Boyden, James

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M,

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Hunter, A. E.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Ross, William

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Silkin, John

  Callaghan, James

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Chapman, Donald

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Cliffe, Michael

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Collick, Percy

  Kelley, Richard

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Small, William

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  King, Dr. Horace

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Cronin, John

  Ledger, Ron

  Snow, Julian

  Crosland, Anthony

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Grossman, R. H. S.

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Dalyell, Tam

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Steele, Thomas

  Darling, George

  Lipton, Marcus

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Lubbock, Eric

  Stones, William

  Delargy, Hugh

  MacColl, James

  Swain, Thomas

  Diamond, John

  MacDermot, Niall

  Symonds, J. B.

  Dodds, Norman

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Taverne, D.

  Doig, Peter

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Driberg, Tom

  McLeavy, Frank

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Duffy, A. E. P. (Colne valley)

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Thornton, Ernest

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Mahon, Simon

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Edelman, Maurice

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Wade, Donald

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Manuel, Archie

  Warbey, William

  Evans, Albert

  Mapp, Charles

  Watkins, Tudor

  Fernyhough, E.

  Marsh, Richard

  Weitzman, David

  Finch, Harold

  Mason, Roy

  Whitlock, William

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mellish, R. J.

  Wigg, George

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Forman, J. C.

  Millan, Bruce

  Willey, Frederick

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Milne, Edward

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Willie, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Ginsburg, David

  Monslow, Walter

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Moody, A. S.

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Gourlay, Harry

  Morris, Charles (Openshaw)

  Woof, Robert

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Grey, Charles

  Moyle, Arthur

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Mr. Lawson and

  Mr. Charles A. Howell.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Barter, John

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Batsford, Brian

  Allason, James

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Arbuthnot, Sir John

  Bainiel, Lord

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Gurden, Harold

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Bidgood, John C.

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Biffen, John

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Partridge, E.

  Bingham, R. M.

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Peel, John

  Bishop, Sir Patrick

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Percival, Ian

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Bossom, Hon. Clive

  Hastings, Stephen

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Pitman, Sir James

  Box, Donald

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Hendry, Forbes

  Pounder, Rafton

  Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Hiley, Joseph

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Braine, Bernard

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Hocking, Philip N.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Quintin

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Bryan, Paul

  Holland, Philip

  Pym, Francis

  Buck, Antony

  Hollingworth, John

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Bullard, Denys

  Hopkins, Alan

  Ramsden, Rt. Hon. James

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. Sir Peter

  Burden, F. A.

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.)

  Campbell, Gordon

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Rees-Davies, W. R. (Isle of Thanet)

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Renton, Rt. Hon. David

  Carr, Rt. Hon. Robert (Mitcham)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Chataway, Christopher

  Irvine, Bryant Codman (Rye)

  Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  James, David

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Jennings, J. C.

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Roots, William

  Cole, Norman

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Cooke, Robert

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Costain, A. P.

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Seymour, Leslie

  Coulson, Michael

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Sharples, Richard

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Shaw, M.

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Shepherd, William

  Crawley, Aidan

  Kitson, Timothy

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Critchley, Julian

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

  Curran, Charles

  Leather, Sir Edwin

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Dance, James

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Stainton, Keith

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. P.

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Lindsay, Sir Martin

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Doughty, Charles

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Alec

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Talbot, John E.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Tapsell, Peter

  du Cann, Edward

  Longbottom, Charles

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Duncan, Sir James

  Longden, Gilbert

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Elliott, R. W. (Newc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

  Emery, Peter

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Teeling, Sir William

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  MacArthur, Ian

  Temple, John M.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  McLaren, Martin

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Maclean, SirFitzroy (Bute&N. Ayrs)

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Farr, John

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

  Fell, Anthony

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Fisher, Nigel

  Maddan, Martin

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Maginnis, John E.

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Foster, Sir John

  Maitland, Sir John

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (Stafford&Stone)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Marshall, Sir Douglas

  Turner, Colin

  Freeth, Denzil

  Marten, Neil

  Turton Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Gammans, Lady

  Maude, Angus (Stratford-on-Avon)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Gardner, Edward

  Mawby, Ray

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Walder, David

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Walker, Peter

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Wall, Patrick

  Goodhart, Philip

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Webster, David

  Cough, Frederick

  Neave, Airey

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Gower, Raymond

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Whitelaw, William

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)

  Green, Alan

  Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Grosvenor, Lord Robert

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Hendon, North)

  Wise, A. R.

  1068

  1069

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Woollam, John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Worsley, Marcus

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and

  Woodhouse, Hon. Christopher

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Mr. J. E. B, Hill.

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Question put, That the proposed words be there added:—
  The House divided: Ayes 272, Noes 179.

  Division No. 121.]

  AYES

  [10.11 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Longbottom, Charles

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Foster, Sir John

  Longden, Gilbert

  Allason, James

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (Stafford&Stone)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Arbuthnot, Sir John

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Freeth, Denzil

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  MacArthur, Ian

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Gammans, Lady

  McLaren, Martin

  Balniel, Lord

  Gardner, Edward

  Maclean, SirFitzroy (Bute&N. Ayrs)

  Barter, John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Batsford, Brian

  Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Maddan, Martin

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  Maginnis, John E.

  Bidgood, John C.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Maitland, Sir John

  Biffen, John

  Goodhew, Victor

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Gough, Frederick

  Marshall, Sir Douglas

  Bingham, R. M.

  Gower, Raymond

  Marten, Neil

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Bishop, Sir Patrick

  Green, Alan

  Maude, Angus (Stratford-on-Avon)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Mawby, Ray

  Bossom, Hon. Clive

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Grosvenor, Lord Robert

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Box, Donald

  Gurden, Harold

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Braine, Bernard

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Neave, Airey

  Bryan, Paul

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Buck, Antony

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Bullard, Denys

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Burden, F. A.

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hendry, Forbes

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Hendon, North)

  Campbell, Gordon

  Hiley, Joseph

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Carr, Rt. Hon. Robert (Mitcham)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Hocking, Philip N.

  Partridge, E.

  Chataway, Christopher

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Quintin

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Holland, Philip

  Peel, John

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Hollingworth, John

  Percival, Ian

  Cole, Norman

  Hopkins, Alan

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Cooke, Robert

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Cooper, A. E.

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Pitman, Sir James

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Costain, A. P.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Pounder, Rafton

  Coulson, Michael

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Crawley, Aidan

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Critchley, Julian

  James, David

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

  Jennings, J. C.

  Pym, Francis

  Curran, Charles

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hon. James

  Dance, James

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. Sir Peter

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.)

  Doughty, Charles

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Rees-Davies, W. R. (Isle of Thanet)

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Alec

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Renton, Rt. Hon.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  David Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  du Cann, Edward

  Kitson, Timothy

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Duncan, Sir James

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Elliott, R. W. (Newc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Leather, Sir Edwin

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Emery, Peter

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Roots, William

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Lindsay, Sir Martin

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Farr, John

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Fell, Anthony

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Seymour, Leslie

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'd field)

  Sharples, Richard

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Shaw, M.

  Shepherd, William

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

  Whitelaw, William

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)

  Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Stainton, Keith

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Wise, A. R.

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Turner, Colin

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Woodhouse, Hon. Christopher

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Talbot, John E.

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Woollam, John

  Tapsell, Peter

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Worsley, Marcus

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Victors, Miss Joan

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

  Walder, David

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Walker, Peter

  Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Teeling, Sir William

  Wall, Patrick

  Mr. Chichester-CIark and

  Temple, John M.

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Mr. J. E. B. Hill.

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Webster, David

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  O'Malley, B. K.

  Ainsley, William

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Oram, A. E.

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

  Owen, will

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Gunter, Ray

  Padley, W. E.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Paget, R. T.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Hannan, William

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Beaney, Alan

  Harper, Joseph

  Parker, John

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Bence, Cyril

  Hayman, F. H.

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Benson, Sir George

  Healey, Denis

  Peart, Frederick

  Blackburn, F.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis)

  Pentland, Norman

  Blyton, William

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Boardman, H.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Probert, Arthur

  Boston, T. G.

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Rankin, John

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hilton, A. V.

  Redhead, E. C.

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S. W.)

  Holman, Percy

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Boyden, James

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Hoy, James H.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Ross, William

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Silkin, John

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Callaghan, James

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Chapman, Donald

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Cliffe, Michael

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Collick, Percy

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Small, William

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Kelley, Richard

  Snow, Julian

  Cronin, John

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Crosland, Anthony

  King, Dr. Horace

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Ledger, Ron

  Steele, Thomas

  Dalyell, Tarn

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Darling, George

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Stones, William

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Swain, Thomas

  Delargy, Hugh

  Lubbock, Eric

  Symonds, J. B.

  Diamond, John

  MacColl, James

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Dodds, Norman

  MacDermot, Niall

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Doig, Peter

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Thornton, Ernest

  Driberg, Tom

  Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Duffy, A. E. P. (Colne Valley)

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Wade, Donald

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Mahon, Simon

  Warbey, William

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Watkins, Tudor

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Weitzman, David

  Evans, Albert

  Manuel, Archie

  Whitlock, William

  Fernyhough, E.

  Mapp, Charles

  Wigg, George

  Finch, Harold

  Marsh, Richard

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mason, Roy

  Willey, Frederick

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Forman, J. C.

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Millan, Bruce

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  George, LadyMeganLloyd (Crmrthn)

  Milne, Edward

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  Ginsburg, David

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Woof. Robert

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Monslow, Walter

  Yates, Victor (Ladywell)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Morris, Charles (Openshaw)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Grey, Charles

  Moyle, Arthur

  Mr. Lawson and

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Mr. Charles A. Howell.

  Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House welcomes the developments in the Government's agricultural policies,
  1074
  which provide the best basis for the continuing prosperity of the industry.

  CEREALS (GUARANTEE PAYMENTS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the Cereals (Guarantee Payments) Order 1964 (S. I., 1964, No. 840), dated 9th June 1964, a copy of which was laid before this House on 15th June, be approved.—[Mr. Scott-Hopkins.]
  10.23 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I do not intend to make a long speech. We have had a major debate on agriculture today and many of the issues which we have discussed are covered by this Order. However, I should like to have a few words from the Minister.
  This Order seeks to provide for standard quantities, and it also confirms what was stated on pages 8 and 9 of the White Paper, the Annual Review and Determination of Guarantees, 1964. It is laid down in paragraph 19 of that White Paper that standard quantities will be imposed as follows:
  "For 1964–65 the standard quantities will be 3·3 million tons for wheat and 6·5 million tons for barley, together totalling 9·8 million tons."
  We do not oppose these quantities. We have accepted standards of quantities in principle in view of the quid pro quo relating to the control of cereal imports. I am sure that some of my hon. Friends would like to ask—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Members opposite wish to be contentious, I will pursue the argument and delay the House; but that would not be in keeping with the spirit of the House this evening.
  I merely ask the Minister to answer some questions to be put, in particular, by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), who speaks on Scottish affairs. In the farming world there are contradictory views on this matter. I can speak only for England and Wales. Our N.F.U. accepted with reservations the principle of standard quantities in relation to cattle. There is general agreement on cereals. However, I will leave this to my Scottish colleagues.
  10.26 p.m.
  Mr. Denys Bullard: I have always had misgivings about the
  1076
  principle of standard quantities. The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) has just said that they were accepted by the farmers—and I think that that is broadly the case—in return for undertakings about importations. I have studied the Order very carefully to see whether my misgivings have been overcome by the regulations now to be made. I think that they have, to a large extent.
  My misgivings about standard quantities apply to those commodities which are produced from acres of land, to put it that way. I have never had any doubt that there had to be some limitation on those commodities produced from farm materials—pigs, for instance—other than cereals which are in the nature of a factory process and which can be carried on irrespective of the acreage of land being managed or farmed. But for cereals—and the same applies, to some extent, to beef—I have never been quite so sure that the principle was valid, because these acres should be used in the best possible way. If it is in the best interests to grow corn on them, it seems to me a pity to impose a top limit.
  However, on analysing the process by which this is to be done, I feel that cereal growers have no real ability to claim that under these regulations they will be restricted in their acreages. They will still be absolutely free to grow the acreages which they require, but if the national acreage over-tops the acreage laid down as the standard quantity, or the quantity produced exceeds the standard quantity, they are to take a slightly lower price than they would have done otherwise. That is a reasonable and rational method of dealing with the matter, and, therefore, I approve of the Order.
  In view of what the hon. Member for Workington said in the debate which we have just had, I am surprised that he should have given his approval in the way that he has done. This seems to me to be a method by which the importation of cereals is to be regulated—
  Mr. Peart Mr. Peart rose—
  Mr. Bullard: The hon. Gentleman must hear me out. He cannot reply to me, because I have not said yet what I propose to say.
  Mr. Peart: What does the hon. Member propose to say?
  Mr. Bullard: If the hon. Gentleman waits a moment, I will put it in the clearest possible language.
  This is a method of regulating the importation of cereals, and it is to be done by international agreement, of which the hon. Member for Workington and his colleagues say they approve. It is a method which will fit in those importations with our home-grown acreage. It has the great virtue, in my opinion, that it will operate without board, or commission, or any other elaborate organisation so much beloved by hon. Members opposite.
  From that point of view, it is a commendable arrangement. I believe that it will be much better done by what I might call the automatic operation of the processes set out in the Order than by any high-powered commission staffed by retired generals and others who would attempt to regulate affairs and who would, I believe, fall down completely on the job. Therefore, for these reasons, despite my early misgivings about standard quantities, I approve of the Order.
  Mr. Peart: The hon. Member, who has now given way, should realise—
  Mr. Bullard: I was not giving way. I had finished.
  Mr. Peart: I thought that the hon. Member had more courage. When we discussed these details in Standing Committee, we took the view that we accepted co-ordination of imports for cereals—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but as the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Bullard) has not given way, strictly he is not in order, because the hon. Member cannot make a second speech.
  10.31 p.m.
  Sir James Duncan: The Order deserves a word on this occasion, because this is the first time that we have had this new system of target indicator prices operating in our agricultural policy. The standard quantities are between 3·2 million and 3·3 million tons for wheat and between 6·3 million and 6·5 million tons for barley. The guaranteed price to start with for wheat
  1078
  is 26s. 6d. and for barley 27s. and the target indicator price is 20s. for wheat and 19s. for barley.
  Mr. Peart: Per hundredweight.
  Sir J. Duncan: Yes, or £19 a ton. I was hoping that the target indicator prices would be nearer the guaranteed prices. The European prices are all much higher than the range that the target indicator prices involve.
  If we are to have a flood of barley this year, there is a danger that the target figure of tonnage may be exceeded and that the target indicator system may have to be brought into operation, reducing the indicator price. I am watching this with interest, because unless we can put a really solid floor to the British price and the target indicator price, there is danger that we Scottish farmers who grow barley and wheat may be discouraged from supporting the system envisaged in the Order.
  I hope, therefore, that Ministers who negotiate the next Price Review will not be too tied to these figures and will take the experience as it comes from year to year and not be in the least afraid of raising the target indicator price as opposed to raising the standard quantity, because that would put more heart into Scottish agriculture than anything else.
  I note that there is nothing in the Order about oats, except that there is no change. I am grateful for that. The guaranteed price is 27s. 3d. and we accept that. But I have not been able to find anything in the White Paper about maize. In any agricultural policy for the future, whether by the Order or the Annual Price Review, I am convinced that maize must come in.
  The whisky distillers can make whisky from either barley or maize. It is the relative cost of maize or barley that determines whether the distillers make whisky and spirits generally from maize or from barley. If the price of maize is low and that of barley is high, they will not buy the barley. I think I have the sympathy on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I hope that in the future determination of arrangements for the cereal market maize will come in, too. I am glad that oats and rye are left out of the Order and are unchanged, but I thought it worth rising

  1079
  to make these few comments on this new arrangement, which is in operation for the first time this year.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mr. J. M. L. Prior: This Order really forms part of the Government's long-term policy for agriculture as such has, I think, the support of the Opposition. It may be construed as strange that the Opposition should have just voted against our agricultural policy and yet, at the same, will now presumably, approve this Order without a Division.
  Mr. Peart: That is a silly remark.
  Mr. Prior: The fact is that this is an essential part of the Government's long-term policy, and, as far as I know, this policy has received the support of the Opposition.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Member cannot continue the debate which has just been concluded.
  Mr. Peart: The hon Member is being silly.
  Mr. Prior: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. It may seem silly to the Opposition, but not to Members on this side of the House.
  Last July, my hon. Friend was kind enough to answer a debate about four o'clock in the morning on cereals marketing, and during that debate he made a statement to the effect that fanners were doing everything they could to achieve what at that time were voluntary price arrangements agreed by the working party committee on cereals. I hope that he will stress tonight the importance of all farmers trying to obtain the target prices laid down for wheat and barley, because if farmers can obtain those prices, quite obviously they are helping themselves to better the overall guaranteed price, than they would if they allow those prices to fall. I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing in the Order. It will do a great deal to stabilise cereal production and cereal prices, and we shall no longer have the ups and downs which have been a constant source of worry to cereal producers over the last few year.
  My hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) mentioned the question of maize. As I understand it, all products which will be used for feedingstuffs
  1080
  which are imported are covered by the Act which we recently passed, and they will, therefore, not be allowed to compete unfairly with our cereals at home.
  In addition, I believe that the Minister has got the target prices just about right for the moment. If we were to go higher we should put an added burden on livestock producers. I declare my interest: I am a cereal producer; but I believe that the burden on the livestock producer would be unfairly great if we pushed the prices too high.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend, and I hope that he will ensure that the farmers know how this very complicated scheme works, and that it will have the support of the industry as a whole. It is very important to the Government's forward policy for agriculture, and one which deserves the support of the whole House.
  10.40 p.m.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: This Order has to be read with very close reference to page 42 of the Annual Review and Determination of Guarantees, 1964, Cmnd. 2315. I should like my hon. Friend to explain why it is that while, in the White Paper in paragraph 4 on page 42, these words occur,
  "If a change should be made in the course of the cereal year in the relevant minimum import prices, an identical change will be made in the target indicator price, and an average target indicator price for the cereal year would be used throughout the calculations"
  in the Order there is no reflection of that proviso. It seems to be very important that it should be made absolutely clear tonight that where paragraph 3 of the Order refers to the target indicator price, there is no going back on that undertaking in the White Paper.
  We have to face the fact that whatever figure is taken as the target indicator price, it is possible that it may prove to be unsuitable in the light of events, and it is very important that the Minister should reserve to himself—I should have thought through the Order—the right to vary the target indicator price accordingly. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that if this introduction of the standard price is to work fairly to home producers, it is absolutely essential that the target indicator price should

  1081
  be closely related to imports and world prices. We would, therefore, welcome an assurance on that issue.
  My second question is concerned with paragraph 10, which raises the issue of how the Minister will determine whether unsuitable land is being used for growing a crop and whether, in the previous 12 months of harvesting, a crop has been produced in a manner likely to impair fertility and whether the cereal seed sown was not sufficient to provide a proper crop, or whether the cereals were self-sown. How will this be supervised? Will it be done through the National Agricultural Advisory Service? There is no reference to any statutory stipulation and it would be helpful to know how this is to be supervised. This is the sort of issue which could be contentious and lead to the dragging out of argument for months. In the meantime, if the farmer happened to be in the right, presumably payment would be withheld, which could be to his disadvantage. It is only fair to the producers that they should know where they stand on this matter.
  Any legislation which the Government are prepared to introduce, or any Orders which they are prepared to lay, likely to relate to the importation of commodities similar to those being produced in this country will always have my support. I am certain that the Opposition have made for far too long the mistake of assuming that the 1947 Act, or any other Act in which they were interested, made sense so long as the Government had the right to interfere in home production without having the right to interfere with imports.
  I sincerely congratulate the Government on having seen the light in this respect. I think that my hon. Friend knows that for many years some of us have stressed the importance of this fact, which makes it all the more easy to welcome this Order and the fact that the Government have shown some recognition of the need for this important consideration to be borne in mind.
  10.44 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: I am tempted to make a speech more relevant to our earlier debate than to the debate on this Order. Some strange things have been said by hon. Members opposite in the course of this debate, but the
  1082
  strangest, in view of the truth and the facts, has been that of the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke).
  For too long the Government have failed to appreciate that if one is to do justice to one section, the home production section, it cannot be done by ignoring the effect of that on other producers. For the first time they have realised that it can be done only in a managed market. Our doubt is about whether the way in which they are doing this will produce the best results.
  The Preamble to the Cereals Order says:
  "The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretaries of State respectively concerned with agriculture in Scotland and Northern Ireland, acting jointly, in exercise of the powers conferred upon them … with the consent of the Treasury and after consultation with such bodies of persons as appear to the said Ministers to represent the interests of producers, hereby make the following order. …"
  I understood from what the Minister said during his closing speech in the last debate—and, indeed, it is implicit in some of the speeches from the benches opposite daring this debate—that this Order was made in conformity with agreements reached between the Government and the representatives of the farmers.
  The farmers of England, Wales and Scotland are represented by two different unions. It appeared to me that the Scottish National Farmers' Union did not accept the principle of standard quantities. I want to get clear whether the statement in the Preamble to this Order means that the Scottish N.F.U. accepted the principle of standard quantities for cereals. The answer to that must be "Yes" or "No". I do not want hon. Members from the back benches opposite to give me the answer to that question. There are two Ministers on the Government Front Bench, one of whom is a Cabinet Minister. I apologise for not having heard the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland earlier today. It would not make too great a demand on my time if I was present every time the right hon. Gentleman spoke, but my absence today was due to the fact that I was at an important meeting with the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

  1083
  I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether the Scottish National Farmers' Union agreed to this Order. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite are more conscious of the historic nature of this Order than is the Minister, who was prepared to let it go through on the nod. This Order marks a considerable change from previous Orders of this nature. The hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) asked, "Why not vote against?" He knows that without this Order deficiency payments could not be made to farmers this year. We have had this argument before. We do not cut off our noses to spite even our agricultural faces. I hope that if hon. Gentlemen opposite intend to talk about these Orders, they will bring themselves within the rules of order, and talk about what is in them. I hope that they will show a little parliamentary sense.
  This is a complicated Order, and many farmers will want it to be explained. We now have not only guaranteed prices, but target indicator prices, average realised prices, and three, or possibly more, out-turns in the relationship between these prices and the calculations which have to be made. We must appreciate that much of this will depend upon the determinations which are made according to the Order—and that determination is the determination of the Ministers,
  "with the approval of the Treasury having regard to the minimum import price levels prescribed for wheat and barley respectively by order under section 1(2) of the Agriculture and Horticulture Act 1964".
  The hon. Member for the Isle of Ely knows that the answer to his question about variations within the Order was implicit in the assurances given during the discussion of the 1964 Act. We were then told that it would be possible to change the minimum import price in relation to any situation that might arise. That was the great value of the Act. But we are certainly entitled to an explanation of the way in which this will be taken into account, and how the changes will be made.
  It is said that the target indicator price is related to the minimum import price, and if the minimum import price changes there can be a change in the target indicator price. This has all
  1084
  helped to complicate the matter. It is now almost impossible to assess what will happen.
  Then there is the question of the new mention of the standard quantity. We have known about the standard quantity before. The Secretary of State for Scotland will appreciate the amount of argument we have had about milk, and particularly about the feelings of Scottish producers—going back for two or three years—when they were concerned not only about the standard quantity but about the limitations in respect of zoning, and the rest. They felt that they could do better than they were doing.
  The incidence of this Order and its effect upon farmers should be determined by the standard quantity as fixed by the Minister. It is not a question of restricting the acreage. The Government could let it run. There has been a certain amount of concern about the formula, and whether it will mean a reduction in price. The Minister says that he is quite happy about the Order. He has to be happy about it, because we are too close to a General Election for him to disagree with his own Government, and, as he knows, it is something that we cannot amend. We cannot put forward any changes. We either accept it or we do not, and if we do not accept it we realise the practical consequences that flow. There was never any great danger of the Government being opposed on the Order.
  But the Government should clear up the doubts about the Order. They should explain the formulae, and the possible changes in the minimum import price. There are things here that might offend people who are coming new into the industry. Is the term "registered growers" a new one? Apparently it is not entirely new. The party opposite says that it is concerned about freedom. People are rather inclined to talk loosely about freedom in agriculture. It is clear that there is now less and less freedom.
  The whole position in agriculture, both in home production and as it is affected by imports, is more and more in the hands of the Government. This is something completely new. It may be inevitable, but it is something about which there is a considerable difference in the view about how it should be handled.
  10.56 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Scott-Hopkins): The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) chided me for not introducing this Order, but I was seeking to save the House from hearing two speeches from me on it. I shall answer the points which he and my hon. Friends have made. As the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) said, this is one of a series of Orders dealing with our cereals policy. I am glad that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) said, the Opposition agree with this particular part of our policy, especially on imports.
  The present Order is complementary to the previous Orders on this subject. It is concerned with the new standard quantity arrangements on the home front for wheat and barley. These were announced after this year's Annual Review and formed part of the general settlement arrived at in agreement with the farmers' representatives. It is true that Scotland did not agree in principle to the standard quantity concept, but I think it has accepted that this Order should embody the new standard quantity arrangements.
  In the White Paper following the Review we set out in some detail the new arrangements to apply to wheat and barley for the 1964 crop. Perhaps I might be allowed to refer here to one of the points made by my hon. Friends. My right hon. Friend decided that for wheat and barley, in addition to the guaranteed price, there should also be a standard quantity and a target indicator price. There seems to be a little confusion about the target indicator price. This is determined by my right hon. Friend and he is empowered to do it at the end of the year in the light of any changes in the minimum import prices during the year. The target indicator price is directly related to the minimum import price.
  My hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) wanted to know if we would keep the minimum import price firmly maintained. This is so. If he looks at paragraph 4 on page 42 of the Annual Review White Paper, he will see the relationship of the target indicator price to the minimum import price. It says:
  1086
  "If a change should be made in the course of the cereal year in the relevant minimum import prices, an identical change will be made in the target indicator price, and an average target indicator price for the cereal year would be used throughout the calculations."
  There is a close relationship between the target indicator price and the minimum import price.
  Mr. Ross: What is more confusing is that the hon. Gentleman started by saying that the target indicator price would be determined at the end of the year. How, before the end of the year comes, can changes be made in it?
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: The hon. Member is not quite "with it". If he looks at page 42, as I am sure he has done, he will see that the target indicator prices are fixed at 20s. per cwt. for wheat and 19s. for barley. These are fixed in direct relationship to the minimum import prices for these commodities. If there are changes during the year, the target indicator price will move in relation to them. Obviously at the end of the year my right hon. Friend will have to work out an average target indicator price. If one studies the matter, as I am sure the hon. Member has done, it will be seen to be clear.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: This is very much on the point I put to my hon. Friend. He will realise that the annual White Paper does not have the force of law or of an Order. The point which concerns me is that although that is in the White Paper, it is not in the Order. Unless it is embodied in an Order, what authority his my right hon. Friend for doing what my hon. Friend has just said he would do, in the event of it being necessary to vary the target indicator price from the 20s. or 19s. per cwt.?
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: My hon. Friend will realise that the authority stems from the 1964 Act, and the Orders which my right hon. Friend can lay under that Act.
  A slightly different aspect of the same point arises on the question about maize raised by my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus. The reason that maize is not mentioned in the Order is that it is not a home-grown crop, and this Order relates to home-grown crops. My hon. Friend will remember that, when we were discussing the orders specifying the

  1087
  commodities on which the minimum import prices would bite, so to speak, maize, compounds of maize and related products were involved then. This is the reason why we felt it necessary to incorporate related products in the Act, although the hon. Member for Workington took such exception to it at the time. This particular phrase was brought in for that reason, and I can assure my hon. Friend that he need have no anxiety on the point. His fears about competition between maize and barley are unfounded.
  My hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) asked about paragraph 10 of the Order, which deals with bad husbandry. There is nothing new in the bad husbandry provisions. They have been carried on since 1954 and have been operating quite successfully in the intervening ten years until now. They are operated through check inspections by our field officers, not the advisory service officers, and serious cases can lead to a reduction of the subsidy. I think there has been no difficulty in the operation of this system since 1954.
  Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: will my hon. Friend explain a point on paragraph 4(b) which is not clear to me? In line 4 appear the words
  "to which amount shall be added a proportion of the amount by which the average realised price exceeds the target indicator price".
  Does the phrase
  "to which amount shall be added"
  apply to the three preceding words, "average realised price" or to
  "the amount, if any, by which the guaranteed price exceeds the average realised price"?
  There will be a different answer according to which is taken.
  Mr. Ross: Wait till the end of the year.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: No, the hon. Gentleman is too gloomy. My hon. Friend need not wait till the end of the year. This is the most difficult part of the Order to understand and see how it will work. Here, we are dealing with the range just below the standard quantity, between 3·2 and 3·3 million tons for wheat and 6·3 and 6·5 million tons for barley. This relates to the second lot of words which my hon. Friend quoted.
  1088
  Payments to producers of these two cereals will be affected by the extent to which the production is greater or less than the standard quantity, and the extent to which the average price realised by growers is greater or less than the target indicator price.
  The main object of the Order is to provide for these new arrangements for wheat and barley from the 1964 harvest. As we are not proposing standard quantities for rye, oats, or mixed cereals, the new Order makes no change in the method of calculating and paying subsidy on these crops. Also, no change is made in the tonnage basis for wheat payments or the acreage basis for barley payments.
  I hope that I have covered the various points which have been raised, and I commend the Order to the House as a necessary step in the implementation of the Government's policy for cereals on the domestic front.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Cereals (Guarantee Payments) Order 1964 (S.I.,1964, No. 840), dated 9th June, 1964, a copy of which was laid before this House on 15th June, be approved.

  AGRICULTURAL LIME SCHEME
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the Agricultural Lime Scheme (Extension of Period) Order 1964, a draft of which was laid before this House on 15th June, be approved.—[Mr. Scott-Hopkins.]
  11.5 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I would like to ask the Minister a number of questions about this Scheme, because, like the last Order we discussed, it is extremely important. The White Paper we have been discussing shows that the subsidy under this Scheme has been running at about £9 million a year, a considerable sum indeed. For 1962–63 it was £10 million, the latest forecast for 1963–64 is £7·8 million, and it is estimated that it will be about £9 million for 1964–65. For many years it has been about £9 million.
  What alterations, if any, are the Government now making in the Scheme? As we all know, this subsidy flows from an Act of 1937, which authorised the payment of a contribution towards the costs

  1089
  of occupiers of agricultural land in applying lime to improve the soil. The Scheme has been amended from time to time and tonight we are dealing with further changes. It is because the Scheme is so important to agriculture that we deserve an explanation from the Government on the latest changes proposed in it.
  I have with me a considerable amount of information. I have a memorandum issued by the Lime Committee of the National Association of Agricultural Contractors. It was handed to the Ministry some time ago. Is the trade satisfied with the proposed changes? I understand that unfortunate instances have occurred in the past, and it is to be hoped that under the new or altered Scheme they will not happen again. In view of the importance of this matter, it is vital that there should exist a partnership, so to speak, between the Government and the trade, particularly since the contractors are anxious that the Scheme should work well.
  I can assure hon. Members opposite that there is no controversy here. I hope, therefore, that they will not gibe my hon. Friends and I about merely supporting what the Government are doing. Nevertheless, we are entitled to an explanation from the Minister about the Scheme. In this connection, the Minister may have seen an interesting bulletin produced by the North West Limestone Association. Produced earlier this month, it has been sent to me bcause it contains details of the use of lime in various counties.
  I also have information about the way in which this sort of subsidy is paid by some Common Market countries to their agricultural industries. Such subsidies are also paid by some E.F.T.A. countries. In Germany, for example, there is a scheme covering all fertilisers, including lime. Another, for Denmark, is listed. This is normal practice, and we want it to work well here. It helps to improve soil fertility. We would like to know the Minister's views, and what progress has been made in improving the scheme.
  11.10 p.m.
  Mr. Aidan Crawley: Whether we regard this as part of long-term or short-term policy of the Government seems to me to depend on how long we expect this Government
  1090
  will be in power. The Order means an extension for five years, and I should like to regard it as a short-term measure, but I am sure that we all agree with the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) that it is a good thing that the Scheme should be extended. There have been some alterations in it recently, both as to methods and payment and as to its general working, which improve it, and will cut out the various abuses to which reference has been made.
  One of the changes under the extension is that the Scheme will in future be worked by an Advisory Committee on which the various bodies connected with the Scheme will be represented. The two points that need to be particularly stressed are, first, that the Advisory Committee should meet at regular intervals and, secondly, that it should have an independent chairman. Both seem to have considerable force. An Advisory Committee that meets only occasionally is unlikely to be effective and one that has as its chairman someone from my right hon. Friend's Department is only too likely to give the Minister the advice he wants to get. Has the composition of the Advisory Committee been settled, and has it been decided, with the agreement of the various bodies that are to be represented on it?
  11.12 p.m.
  Mr. Henry Clark: I have three points that I want to raise with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. The first relates to transport subsidy. Can my hon. Friend tell us clearly why we in Northern Ireland should get a lower transport rate between 20 and 30 miles? We fully accept that we are fortunate in the distribution of lime throughout Northern Ireland and that no subsidy should be paid at over 30 miles, but though in some parts of the country a rate of 4d. a mile is paid for distances from 5 miles to 30 miles, that rate is paid only for distances from 5 miles to 20 miles in Northern Ireland, and only 2d. a mile thereafter.
  The Minister will almost certainly tell me that because we have good distribution the payments have been scaled down. If so, will he say why they have not been scaled down in the same way in Montgomeryshire, Cardiganshire and Merionethshire,

  1091
  Cornwall and the west of England? If we scale down in Northern Ireland, why not scale down in other places—or scale up for the more distant places? That does not seem to have been done.
  The second point is, perhaps, a constituency one. The Scheme has special provisions for hard, white limestone, and the north-eastern part of Northern Ireland has the hardest and whitest limestone in the world. Special provision is made elsewhere for this material, as it is a good deal more difficult to grind. Can my hon. Friend say why no special provision has been made for the hard, white limestone of Northern Ireland?
  The third and much the most important point is that related to burnt lime This has been discussed at very considerable length between the Lime Association of Northern Ireland and the Ministry officials there. It is fully appreciated that the subsidy there will be £1 less under the new scheme than under the old, and there is no question that this will hit the burnt lime trade there very hard. I am told that the Ministry said that the burnt lime industry in Northern Ireland is a dying one, and quoted a very considerable reduction in sales in 1963.
  The fact remains that ground limestone sales in 1963 were down considerably, and 1963 was a remarkable year for many statistics. However, the early part of the season when many farmers in Northern Ireland are distributing their lime is not a suitable time for shifting bulk commodities round the countryside or distributing them on the fields.
  The burnt lime industry is not a dead one, though it may be slowly declining, but it has been hit a death blow. We shall create unemployment in quarries all over Northern Ireland, particularly round my constituency. I visualise five or 10 men being put out of work in a dozen small industries.
  I am not asking the Minister to review the subsidy on burnt lime to bolster up a dying industry. The industry in Northern Ireland has been very go-ahead. It is developing new uses for lime, particularly as a concrete aggregate, fillers for plastering and other things. These are in the future and are expanding, but if the scheme is put through without
  1092
  assisting a little more the producers of burnt lime, we shall knock people out of the industry and out of employment before the new developments have come along to supply jobs.
  I ask the Minister to look into this carefully. He will create unemployment. There can be no argument on his behalf. It is fully accepted by the officials in Belfast that the burnt lime will get about £1 subsidy less than before and will be far too expensive for the farmers.
  11.17 p.m.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I hope that my hon. Friend will take the opportunity when replying to elaborate a little on paragraph 41 on page 12 of the Annual Review and Determination of Guarantees, which warns us that this Order will be necessary in view of the present Order expiring in July this year. It says in the new Order that for a further period the existing percentage grant system will be replaced by a flat rate subsidy contribution which will bring the arrangements more into line with present-day conditions in the lime trade and lead to greater administrative efficiency and control. I should like my hon. Friend particularly to elaborate on what are the particular aspects into which we shall move more into line as a result of this operation.
  In Appendix V we see what the cost is likely to be. I notice that this year the estimate is that we shall be spending £9 million in grants for lime. That will be £1·2 million higher than the latest forecast for 1963–64, but that still will not be as high as it was in 1955–56. I should like my hon. Friend to explain the assumptions on which that slightly below average figure has been decided. Is it a lower acreage, is it a smaller quantity of lime, or is it the fact that the new arrangements will ensure that the lime goes on to the farm cheaper than before?
  I have always had some misgivings about production grants. These grants form part of a total of £105 million a year on all the farming grants and subsidies other than the implementation of price guarantees for the commodities produced. When considering the figure, it is sometimes worth remembering that, whereas before the war 12s. in every £

  1093
  spent by the consumer went on food, today it is only 5s. 6d., or was on the basis of the 1962 figures, and that the subsidies themselves add only about another 6d. on top of that. Therefore, one could say that if only the consumers could be persuaded to pay for their food one half of the amount of every £ that they used to spend before the war on food, probably these subsidies would be totally unnecessary. I realise that if that were done, it would increase the price of food and that it is no good doing that unless we have the agreement of the trade unions. But we must recognise that so long as we pay less than we ought for our food, so long will these subsidies be necessary.
  11.20 p.m.
  Mr. James H. Hoy: I should like to follow the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) on the question whether people should have subsidised products or whether the prices of food should be increased. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the price of food should be raised, it would be interesting if he were to go before his electorate and tell them that the way to solve the problem is to increase food prices, for if that were done it would be bound to lead to a demand for increased wages. I cannot believe that the hon. Gentleman would do that.
  The hon. Gentleman asked what was happening about paragraph 10 of the last Order, and the Minister replied that it had been in operation for 10 years. Apparently, the hon. Gentleman had not heard of that. One would expect from the hon. Gentleman a higher standard of knowledge than he displayed on that aspect of agriculture.
  I want to say a few words about the lime subsidy, because it has come under the surveillance of the Public Accounts Committee. We on that Committee considered this matter seriously, because undoubtedly abuses had occurred. While the Public Accounts Committee, like the House as a whole, had no objection to the payment of the lime subsidy because of its contribution to soil fertility, we wanted an assurance that public money was being well spent—in other words, that certain abuses could be eradicated from its application.
  1094
  I should like to know whether the new scheme will make it easier to have proper supervision of the distribution of these subsidies. It is important that we are able to reassure the taxpayer. Whatever the hon. Gentleman says about the payment for foodstuffs, whether the full amount is paid in the price or in the form of subsidies, the money has got to be found from the taxpayer's pocket. We should like an assurance that in this new scheme the Minister has taken steps to see that, as far as is humanly possible, these misdemeanours of the past will not occur in the future. We want to be assured that the money is properly spent and that the taxpayer's purse is safeguarded.
  11.23 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: For a time I wondered exactly what we were discussing tonight. As I understand it, we are dealing with the Agricultural Lime Scheme Extension period. I congratulate the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Mr. H. Clark) on having made a speech that was entirely out of order, and nobody seemed to notice it. It shows how well up he is with events, because the Order to which he referred, I gather, was laid last Thursday and he still has 40 sitting days in which to put down a Prayer and keep us up for about three-quarters of an hour some night during which time he might get the explanations which he requested tonight. I can assure him that I will join him because I, too, am concerned with the question of transport costs in certain parts of Scotland.
  All we are concerned about tonight is whether or not we shall extend the possibility of having a scheme for another five years. I do not doubt that the House will agree to this. Even when the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Crawley) was a Labour Member he had no objection to it. I thought that he would have changed his mind by now. The fact is that the Scheme now in force would end on 31st July without the passing of this Order, so that, apart from any conditions which may exist, if anyone wants anything after that date the House must pass this Order tonight.
  I do not think that there are any complications about the Order, but I am looking forward to seeing all the hon.

  1095
  Members from Northern Ireland here another night to make again the case which was made a little earlier this evening, although I suspect that the chances are that it will be on a Prayer put down by hon. Members from this side of the House.
  There is little or nothing more to be said about this Order tonight. We are concerned only with a matter of timing. It is only a question of giving the Government extended time. We know that there is to be a new Scheme, and we could say that we would not agree to the passing of this Order until we had been given details of that new Scheme. I will not, however, exercise any back bench or Front Bench ingenuity in order to keep the debate going longer. We will await the discussion on a Prayer of the vital details of how this £9 million is to be spent in the coming year, when we hope that all the Northern Ireland Unionist group will be present and not just the hon. Member for Antrim, North to take part. As the hon. Member knows, time is limited on those occasions and I appeal to him to let stand the speech he made tonight and to give some others of us an opportunity to take part in that debate.
  11.28 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Scott-Hopkins): We are discussing, as the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) has just said, the extension of the agricultural lime subsidy and, as he also pointed out, it is an extension for a further five years of the payments which will end on 31st July if this Order is not passed tonight. I would point out that his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) was just as clever in talking about a different Order as was my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Mr. H. Clark). Indeed, the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) set the pace for this and the hon. Member for Leith followed it up.
  It is a little difficult to talk about a different Order which we may have the pleasure of discussing at a later date, but what is relevant tonight under this Order is the point concerning consultation with all the interests concerned—the trade and the National Farmers' Union, and so on
  1096
  —in order to look into the workings of the Order after it has been in operation for a few months so that we can see if it is satisfactory. The trade and the National Farmers' Union agree with the Scheme and with this Order but in a change-over of the kind which we are making here it is not to be expected that everyone would be satisfied. So far as the point about the consultative committee is concerned, as my right hon. Friend the Minister said when answering the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), he does not think that a formal committee would be either necessary nor appropriate. We are more than ready to meet the interests concerned.
  The Order which we are discussing tonight does not go into the details of the Scheme. As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock has said, it merely asks for an extension of time by five years for the additional payment of the home subsidy and, on that basis, I commend the Order to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Agricultural Lime Scheme (Extension of Period) Order 1964, a draft of which was laid before this House on 15th June, be approved.

  RAILWAYS (BISHOP AUCKLAND-DARLINGTON LINE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Finlay.]
  11.31 p.m.
  Mr. James Boyden: I am asking tonight that two railway passenger services, mainly in my constituency, be kept open. They are the Crook—Bishop Auckland—Shildon—Darlington line and the Middleton-in-Teesdale — Barnard Castle line. It may be confusing to the House for me to take them together, but as this may be my last opportunity this Session to speak about them I hope that I may be forgiven if I try to discuss them together on general principles which, in varying degree, apply to each line.
  We are asking to hold on to what we have got, because under the present Government scant regard is paid to the industrial development of South-West

  1097
  Durham. The closure of these lines would be a blow to future industrial development. On 15th June, unemployment was 1,970 in the five travel-to-work areas that these lines largely cover. In Bishop Auckland, the unemployment rate was three times the national average. None of the constituencies in the growth zone and in the area between Barnard Castle and Upper Teesdale even forms a development district. This makes a marked contrast with care taken in the constituency with the revival of coalmines and the institution of trading estates after the war under the care and interest of the late Hugh Dalton.
  These two railway lines play a vital part in what the Government set out to be the rôle of South-West Durham. I do not accept that rôle, but I am arguing tonight on the lines on which the Government should be arguing in the terms of their own policy. I cannot be held to claim that I approve of the Hailsham Report or the rôle that it sets out for South-West Durham.
  The rôle set out for South-West Durham in the Hailsham Report—"The North East"—is referred to in paragraph 119 as follows:
  "In this area, including Barnard Castle, Tow Law, Crook and Wellington, Bishop Auckland, Shildon, Spennymoor, Aycliffe, and Darlington, the main prospects for expansion seem to lie on the line Spennymoor—Aycliffe—Darlington; the other places mentioned are not regarded as being in the growth zone."
  It goes on to state:
  "Darlington and a larger Aycliffe must be expected to accommodate much of the increase and to meet some of the needs of the places to the north-west where local employment opportunities are likely to go on declining. Within these latter localities there will be increasing need for selectivity as regards the places at which to build up further social capital."
  The transport implications of this are that the people all along these lines, from Crook to Bishop Auckland and Darlington, and from Crook to Middleton-in-Teesdale, Barnard Castle and eastwards, must travel to Aycliffe, Spennymoor and Darlington and even beyond to Tees-side to get their jobs. Therefore, in the interests of the Government's plan, it is suicidal to shut these lines.
  In addition, the Hailsham Report, the plan for the North-East, makes a special reference to the desirability of mobility. Paragraph 98 states that the growth zone
  1098
  is small and that because of that, people will have to travel, but it contains this soporific phrase:
  "Most of those likely to be coming to work there from elsewhere"—
  which covers most of my constituency—
  "will be from towns or villages not far away. The distances of travel-to-work involved will therefore be quite modest and in line with present trends."
  If these railways are closed, the time of travelling will not by any means be modest, nor will it be in line with present trends. In fact, I should have thought that paragraph 66, which refers to railways, would already have been invoked by the Minister to stop these closures taking effect. It states that
  "the Minister of Transport has arranged to take account of the local travel implications of the region's development needs when any railway passenger service closure proposal comes before him for decision."
  I should have thought he might have spared all the agony of discussions and conferences and public meetings by saying that these lines should be kept open, and so be done with it.
  The transport users consultative committees have sat very carefully to consider these problems, and in both cases they have said hardship will be caused by the closure of the lines. On the Middleton-in-Teesdale to Darlington line the Committee gave careful consideration to the representations which were made, and after taking into account the alternative services existing and proposed, reached the conclusion that withdrawal of the train service would cause hardship in varying degrees to present users of the service and that in some instances this hardship would be severe. The committee considered that the operation of additional bus services as proposed by British Railways, and the introduction of special buses for the conveyance of scholars, would only partially alleviate the hardship which had been brought to notice. This is a very moderate recommendation by the committee.
  In the case of the Crook-Bishop Auckland line, the first hearing was a complete disgrace. The railways had practically no discussion with the bus companies and practically no alternative arrangements to suggest. In fact, what happened was that the T.U.C.C. heard many representations and adjourned so

  1099
  that the railways could get together with the bus services and make alternative proposals. I said at the time, and I say again, that I think this was completely disgraceful—for the railways, as it were, just to throw away their obligations and the Minister to allow them to do.
  The T.U.C.C. made a second attempt in that case, and I think the Minister ought to have intervened at that stage and finished with the proposals for the closures. When the committee reassembled and heard again the evidence about alternative bus services this is what it said:
  "The Committee gave very careful consideration to the representations put forward, and after taking into account the existing and proposed alternative services, they reached the conclusion that the withdrawal of the train service would result in serious hardship to the large body of passengers who use the trains to travel to and from their daily work. The operation of additional bus services, as proposed by British Railways, whilst effecting material improvements in the alternative road services, would not eradicate the hardship which has been brought to the Committee's notice."
  The bue service would miss the expresses from London to Darlington and from Darlington to London.
  I concentrate my case on the hardship for the workpeople, because it is on them that the greatest hardship rests. What I would hope is that the Parliamentary Secretary will see that every case of hardship is investigated, and any clues leading to other cases of hardship are followed up and an assessment made of all the hardship likely to be caused, because I am quite convinced that on any fair judgment of the hardship caused he would stop the closure of these lines.
  A good many of the local journeys are extremely convenient to workpeople. For example, the Crook—Bishop Auckland line makes possible journeys to places like the Wilton Park and the Aycliffe Trading Estate, and a very considerable number of people have to go to Wilton Park. The same applies to Middleton and Teesdale. There are probably 12 to 15 cases of local journeys which will be made much more tedious at the very least by bus, even where the bus service is possible, and in some cases it will not be possible. The closures will cause unemployment, and what the
  1100
  Minister will be doing by approving the closures will be adding substantially to the length of working day of a considerable number of people and an increase in their costs.
  In fact he will be depressing the standard of living of a good many of my constituents by not taking positive action to keep the line open. I have always thought that the Bishop Auckland and Crook business people had a legitimate case for a special express train, as is the case with Darlington, leaving for London in the morning and coming back again at night. This is going a very long way and is looking forward to the sort of integration of transport policy which the Labour Party would like to carry out.
  There is considerable feeling in my constituency and in neighbouring constituencies about these closures. This is completely non political. At the public meeting at Barnard Castle Parish Hall I was asked to represent the Startforth Rural District Council, Barnard Castle Urban District and Barnard Castle Rural District Councils. They agree absolutely with the arguments which I am now putting forward and none of those councils is Labour controlled. There was also a public meeting at Barnard Castle which was specially organised and which was one of the best attended meetings ever to be held there. I was asked to address it, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I had no hand in organising it. The Bishop Auckland Town Hall was practically full for the Bishop Auckland hearing. All the local authorities put forward a variety of objections and the social organisations, women's institutes, religious bodies, sporting clubs and so on made strenuous representations, as did many individuals. This degree of representation must have been supported by many people who could not get to the hearing because, of course, they had to go to work.
  I conclude by referring to what is a fairly common form of hardship which runs throughout railway closures and particularly these. There will be considerable difficulties for children travelling to private schools. Contract bus services will be provided for children going to State schools, but even then there will be hardship. There will also be difficulties for holiday visitors to

  1101
  Teesdale and many emigrés, if I may call them that, coming to visit sons and daughters, or sons and daughters visiting parents, who, if the line is shut, will have great difficulty getting from Darlington into Teesdale and Weardale. There are the special categories of old people, people visiting hospitals, people with prams wanting to travel by train, women's institute visits, which are likely to be cut off, Barnard Castle public school boys coming and going at the end and beginning of school holidays.
  The Hailsham Report refers to the development of tourist facilities in areas like Teesdale. Teesdale is not specifically quoted, but paragraph 107 of the Report says that as modernisation gets under way in the region's communications, public services and amenities, more money will come in from tourists. It looks as though the exact opposite will happen in Teesdale.
  The cost of road development and ancillary development of buses, shelters and so on, will be of an order which will put the saving to the railways in the shadows. I will quote only the examples of the Newton Ap Book road into Bishop Auckland via Shildon and Redworth and Heighington, where two double-decker buses could hardly pass, and almost the whole of the Teesdale road, which is too narrow for a bus service.
  The social cost of closing these lines will be out of all proportion to the relatively small savings that the railways will make. I hope most sincerely that the Minister of Transport will not add to the catalogue of complaints against the Government for their neglect of this part of the country.
  11.45 p.m.
  Mr. Timothy Kitson: I support what the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) said about the railway line to Barnard Castle. This line serves many of my constituents, and, like the hon. Gentleman, I made representations to the T.U.C.C. meeting at Barnard Castle. Since that meeting there has been a deterioration in the bus services. I have sent the figures to the Minister, and I hope that he will consider them carefully when he is looking at the possibility of keeping this line going.
  My second reason for supporting the hon. Gentleman is that this is very much
  1102
  a residential area for Tees-side, and if the railway line goes, the alternative road will prove grossly inadequate. Even during last winter, which was extremely mild, on one or two occasions the bus was unable to run. Anybody who knows the roads in this part of the country knows that trains can get through at times when buses are unable to do so.
  We are trying to encourage people to come and live in what is essentially a residential commuter area for Tees-side and Darlington. It would be a detrimental step for the dales if the Barnard Castle-Darlington line were closed. I hope that my hon. Friend will look carefully at the bus services which it is proposed to use as an alternative, because they are not sufficient to meet the needs of the area.
  11.46 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) say that he was regarding this matter as non-political. I was a little worried at one stage when he referred to an integrated transport system. I am afraid that that is really a pipe-dream which he is unlikely to be able to fulfil, because I am certain that his party will not win the next election.
  Tonight's debate is not a political debate at all. It is the second stage in the discussion which the hon. Gentleman had with me about the future of these two lines in his constituency following a Question which he first asked on 6th May. At that time I did my best to answer him, but, unfortunately, he was not at all satisfied and because of that we are having this debate tonight. I do not know whether he is going to be much more; satisfied tonight, because I shall not be able to tell him much more than I did on that occasion when he told me that he did not think that my Answer was satisfactory.
  The reason why I cannot tell him any more is that, as both he and my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Kitson) know, the case is sub judice, so I cannot comment on the merits of many of the points which have been raised. I am sure that they both appreciate this, and indeed it may well be that this matter was raised tonight

  1103
  less as a means of getting any answer than as an opportunity for underlining the various objections to the closures which were made at the T.U.C.C. hearing, or which have been represented to my right hon. Friend since then, for example, representations from the various local authorities.
  As the hon. Gentleman knows, the history of the matter is that the Railways Board published these two proposals in the normal way last year, first to close the rail passenger service from Middleton-in-Teesdale via Barnard Castle to Darlington, and, secondly, the line from Crook via Bishop Auckland, also to Darlington. When these proposals were made, an objection was lodged—in fact, several objections were lodged—and this brought into operation the procedure laid down in the 1962 Act to protect the interests of passengers. The hon. Gentleman has been trying to do that, but the procedure is laid down in the 1962 Act whereby, if there are objections, a closure cannot take place without both an inquiry before the T.U.C.C, and the consent of my right hon. Friend.
  The T.U.C.C. has considered these objections and has reported to my right hon. Friend. The hon. Gentleman knows about this because he represented his constituents at both hearings. Indeed, I am not sure that I should not say at all three hearings because, as he said, the T.U.C.C. held a second hearing on the Bishop Auckland line after new proposals for alternative services had been put forward. At the Barnard Castle hearing the hon. Member had the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks, and at both the Bishop Auckland ones of the hon. Member for Durham, North-West (Mr. Ainsley). I know the interest which the three hon. Members have in the proposal, and I am glad to see two of them here tonight—one on each side, which shows that this is a non-party matter. I must apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) for not noticing that he, too, is present.
  As all hon. Members know, these lines both run into Darlington from the west. They both carry commuters and school children, not only into Darlington but
  1104
  also to intermediate points. They are, however, in many ways very different. The southern line runs through a predominantly rural area to Barnard Castle, which is a small market town and a centre for school children from further up the valley. Then it goes up Teesdale to Middleton, which is a centre for visitors to an area of great attractions, that include High Force and other beauty spots. Approximately 500 journeys are made on this line each weekday, mainly by commuters and school children to and from either Barnard Castle or Darlington. That is the character of the southern line.
  The more northerly line runs from Darlington past the south-western corner of Aycliffe Trading Estate to Shildon, with its large railway workshops. Beyond there it passes through Bishop Auckland, which is a centre for the South-West Durham mining areas. Then it goes to Crook, which itself serves as a railhead for other mining towns. such as Tow Law. On this line about 3,600 journeys are made each day, mainly by workers into Bishop Auckland, Shildon, the Aycliffe Trading Estate and Darlington. Though the towns and villages which these two lines serve are very different—as is the volume of traffic; 500 on one and 3,600 on the other—both lines have one thing in common: they carry people from areas of high unemployment to work in the growth area of Darlington—Aycliffe and on Tees-side. The bulk of each line lies through areas just outside the growth zone of the North-East, but the northern line lies wholly within the development district area.
  As this is a special area, with special problems, as the House knows, these problems were fully considered last year, under the aegis of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, who was then Lord President of the Council with special responsibilities for the North-East. I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland that the Government had given scant attention to the problems of the North-East. They have given very careful attention to those problems. Those who are concerned with the preparation of the North-East Study were aware of the closure proposals which were put forward by the Railways Board.
  Mr. Boyden: For the record, I said that scant attention had been paid by the Government to South-West Durham. The hon. Gentleman may not agree, but that is what I said.
  Mr. Galbraith: I do not agree that the Government gave scant attention to anything. This part of the world received a great deal of attention.
  The hon. Member referred to the Report on the North-East, and quoted from it. I also want to quote from paragraph 66, which says:
  "The Minister of Transport has arranged to take account of the local travel implications of the region's development needs when any railway service closure proposal comes before him for decision."
  This is what we are doing in this area and it is what we do everywhere. There is nothing new about it.
  A good example is the two Highland lines which my right hon. Friend decided should stay open although there was a very compelling financial ground for closing them. He did not close them because there were other considerations to be taken into account. That is a matter which I should like to go into the minds of the hon. Member and my hon. Friend.
  So much for the history of the case. The position now is that these two proposals are before my right hon. Friend and he is considering them in the light of all the relevant factors. In the exchange which we had at Questions, the hon. Member suggested that my right hon. Friend was, to use his own word, "pondering" the matter at undue length. I think that an unfair interpretation. If my right hon. Friend came to a decision quickly and if it was a decision which the hon. Member disapproved of, he might legitimately criticise my right hon. Friend for giving the matter insufficient attention. When my right hon. Friend does give his decision—and I cannot say what it will be—he will have reached it only after laborious and exhaustive study of the many conflicting considerations involved. It is because of this that time has to be taken. Of these considerations which my right hon. Friend has to balance, the report of the T.U.C.C. is one of the most important. The T.U.C.C. has considered what the effect of the closure would be on the traveller, how he will
  1106
  be able to get about without a railway, how long it will take and what it will cost. All these matters are vital to passengers, not the wider financial and economic considerations, although this is often suggested as something which the T.U.C.C. has to consider; but its function is to consider hardship.
  In these two cases the T.U.C.C. found that the withdrawal of the Bishop Auckland service would cause serious hardship to the large body of passengers who use the trains to travel to and from work and that the proposed additional bus services, while effecting material improvements in the road services, would not eradicate the hardship. With regard to the closure of the Barnard Castle service, it found this would also cause hardship in varying degrees to users of the service. It concluded that additional bus services would only partially relieve the hardship. So the advice of the T.U.C.C. is that the present alternatives would not relieve hardship.
  My right hon. Friend, however, is not content with the report on hardship. He has also had a report in each case on the effect which the proposed closure would have on the roads and the traffic on them. This is an important consideration and it is sometimes sufficient to prevent a closure to which my right hon. Friend might otherwise have agreed. For example, it was the condition of the roads which resulted in the Alston-Halt-whistle line being kept open. I mention this because it is so often said that the whole procedure is a farce and that the decision is a foregone conclusion. Nothing could be further from the truth and the Minister does not work in these important matters on his own. In reviewing the wider social and economic considerations he has the help of his colleagues. Here my right hon. Friend has the help and views of the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development and also of the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Labour. These questions are not decided just by the Minister of Transport rubber stamping Dr. Beech-ing's proposals, as the hon. Member suggested without a grain of truth, but they represent a considered judgment of all the Ministers concerned.
  In the light of all the information which becomes available to my right hon.

  1107
  Friend, he reaches a decision on a much wider view than that of the Railways Board, which has a statutory duty to cover costs and operate with efficiency, or with that of the T.U.C.C.'s who are concerned only with hardship. The fact that my right hon. Friend is able to deal with these matters on a much wider scale will, I hope, bring some satisfaction to the hon. Member and his constituents. I am afraid that in the time available I cannot deal with details which the hon. Member referred to about times and fares, or the weather conditions and holiday resorts questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks.
  1108
  They are the sort of factors which my right hon. Friend will be considering when he makes a decision. All the facts which have been brought forward tonight have been brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend through the T.U.C.C. and the various representations will be borne in mind.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Monday evening and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at one minute past Twelve o'clock.

PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
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  Earnings-Rule Limits
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  Unemployment Benefit
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MINISTRY OF HEALTH
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HOSPITALS
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EMPLOYMENT
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  Engineering Firms, Gateshead (Boys)
  Cost of Living Index
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  Unemployment
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  Gateshead Youth Employment Office (Benefits and Grants)
  Iron and Steel Industry Training Board
  Iron and Steel Industry Training Board
  Construction and Civil Engineering Industry, Scotland
  Construction and Civil Engineering Industry, Scotland
  CONGO
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  MALAYSIA (INDONESIAN GUERRILLA OPERATIONS)
  MALAYSIA (INDONESIAN GUERRILLA OPERATIONS)
  CYPRUS (GENERAL GRIVAS)
  CYPRUS (GENERAL GRIVAS)
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
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  Underground Car Park, Welwyn Garden City
HOUSING
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  Modernised Houses, Batley and Morley
SCOTLAND
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  Oversized Classes
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INDUSTRY, TRADE AND REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT
  Government -Financed Factories, Sunderland
  Government -Financed Factories, Sunderland
  MALAWI INDEPENDENCE (GIFTS)
  MALAWI INDEPENDENCE (GIFTS)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
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EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
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NATIONAL FINANCE
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  National Incomes Commission (Written Evidence)
  National Incomes Commission (Written Evidence)
HOME DEPARTMENT
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MINISTRY OF POWER
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  Coal, Gas and Electricity (Prices)
ROADS
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  Traffic Engineering (Post-Graduate Courses)
  Motorways
  Motorways

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Coventry

PREVENTIVE DETENTION AND AGED DETAINEES
2.35 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many men now serving sentences of preventive detention were, when sentenced, above "the maximum qualifying age for preventive detention, as stated in the practice direction" of the Lord Chief Justice; and of this number how many are at present aged 70 years and over.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD DERWENT): My Lords, I do not know of any practice direction which states a maximum qualifying age for a sentence of preventive detention. There are at the present time sixteen male prisoners undergoing preventive detention who are more than 70 years old.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, when the Lord Chief Justice referred the other day to the case of a man of 62, I understood that he must be referring to a maximum age for preventive detention. That is how I took it. Can I ask the noble Lord, with regard to the fourteen men over 70 years of age—
LORD DERWENT: Sixteen.
LORD STONHAM: I am sorry—the sixteen men now over 70 years of age, what has happened to them, in view of the fact that Parkhurst is no longer being used as a P.D. prison, that these men can therefore no longer be in the geriatric ward there, and there is no other provision of a similar character in any other prison?
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I have not got the details of each of these sixteen men. I do not know where they are at the present moment. If the noble Lord would like to put down another Question, I could probably answer it.
LORD STONHAM: Will the noble Lord then ask his right honourable friend to inquire into the sentences of these sixteen men?—because it does seem absurd and unnecessary to imprison men of that age in a secure prison.
LORD DERWENT: The noble Lord will know, of course, that the length of sentences is nothing to do with the Home Secretary.

MOVEMENT OF ABNORMAL LOADS FOR EXPORT
2.37 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the difficulty experienced in moving heavy indivisible loads is a serious barrier to the expansion of our export trade in electrical gear, boilers, chemical and engineering equipment; and whether they have any plans for dealing with the problem on a national scale, including greater use of the major inland waterways and the provision at main ports of heavy lift cranes of up to 300 tons capacity.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, my right honourable friend is aware of the difficulties experienced in moving heavy indivisible loads, and has been in touch with representatives of industry, who have undertaken to let him have particulars of their needs. The investigation of certain additional road routes for very heavy loads is already in hand, and as soon as the information is received from industry he will consider what further steps should be taken to deal with the problem.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that responsible representatives of some of the largest industries in the country have said

429
that the lack of these facilities is holding back our export drive? Is he aware, too, that there is a demand for indivisible loads of some 300 tons for export; and can he say anything about that part of my Question which refers to the use of the waterways, in view of the fact that A.E.I. propose to build barges to carry loads of 500 tons if the facilities are there?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, as I tried to indicate in. my Answer—and I had hoped I had succeeded—my right honourable friend is aware of these problems. In fact, he has been in touch with the Abnormal Loads Committee of the Conference of Heavy Engineering Industries, and it is that body which has undertaken to give him a comprehensive and detailed picture of the needs that they have. When my right honourable friend receives that, which I understand will be in the quite near future, he will consider what are the best plans to make, and I certainly would not rule out the use of any form of transport which might be useful in the circumstances.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, would the noble Lord suggest to his right honourable friend that he might approach industry, especially those industries which make equipment of the kind mentioned in the Question, with the suggestion that they should so fabricate this equipment that it can be carried upon the transport facilities that are at present available? The noble Lord will be aware, I have no doubt, that the more the size of the roads is increased to accommodate abnormal loads, the greater the abnormal loads will become; and the greater the roads will have to become to carry them. Would it not be a sensible thing to start at the other end and suggest to industry that they use their brains to prefabricate these loads into different sizes?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, that, I am happy to tell your Lordships, my right honourable friend has already done, and, I am even happier to say, with certainly some success. But the industrial requirements of these manufacturers are such that it is not always possible.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is becoming a custom for a number of importers to send their goods packaged in enormous parcels, weighing, in some cases,
430
hundreds of tons, and that particularly is this the case now in the timber trade? Is the noble Lord also aware that this stuff which ought to be travelling by water and by rail is being put on to the roads? In particular, is the noble Lord aware that Brentford Dock, which still has a cargo handling of 100,000 tons a year, is being closed; that all this cargo is being put on to the roads, and that the only crane capable of handling such cargo at the dock has already been scrapped?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, without notice I cannot answer to-day the second part of the noble Viscount's question. If he cares to put down another Question, I shall be delighted to go into it. I should have thought that if timber was moving about this country in packages weighing several hundred tons there would be severe physical difficulties in moving it by rail, by waterway or even by road.

RECOMMENDED ABOLITION OF PREVENTIVE DETENTION
2.42 p.m.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they intend to announce their decision on the report of the Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders, which, in January 1963, recommended the abolition of preventive detention.]
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, the Government hope to make a statement shortly.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, may I ask whether that means before the House rises for the holidays?
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I cannot give the noble Earl a date, but the Government will make every attempt to make a statement before the Recess.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: Perhaps I might just ask whether the noble Lord is aware that preventive detention has no friends anywhere, and that almost everybody concerned with these ques-

431
tions is utterly disgusted at the long delay involved.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I cannot agree that the delay is unduly long. The noble Earl will remember that it was a Labour Government which brought in preventive detention in order to deal with the very difficult problems of recidivism. Before doing away with it, as I have already said three times in your Lordships' House, this Government are determined that whatever takes its place shall be satisfactory.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, a lot of water has flowed under the bridges since the last Labour Government, but may I ask the Minister this: Is he aware that there is to be an important debate held in your Lordships' House on a Motion introduced by my noble friend Lord Gardiner? Will the Minister use his best endeavours to see that we have a statement before that debate, because I think it would be very useful not only to your Lordships' House but to all people who are interested in this very important matter?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot add anything to my original Answer. As soon as we are ready to make a statement we will do so.
LORD SHEPHERD: But, my Lords, the noble Lord can use his best endeavours. Can he at least give me an assurance as to that?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, "the noble Lord", as a matter of fact, does not actually decide what is going to happen. Until that is decided no statement can be made.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that an answer precisely similar to the one he gave my noble friend Lord Longford was given me by his predecessor, Lord Jellicoe, in July of last year, when he then expressed the hope that an announcement would be made before the Summer Recess of that year? Can the noble Lord be a little more definite and assure us that he will get a statement of the Government's intentions before the end of this July?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am afraid I can only repeat my original
432
Answer that a statement will be made shortly.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, does the noble Lord not think it rather hard on the courts, and perhaps the other persons concerned, to have this prolonged uncertainty over seventeen months with the courts not knowing what the position is going to be? Perhaps prisoners would have been dealt with quite differently if the Government had made up their minds within a reasonable time.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, it may be that the original decision to introduce preventive detention was introduced too quickly and without adequate thought. We are not going to make the same mistake again.

EDUCATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF POLICE RECRUITS
2.46 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in the light of the finding of the Royal Commission that the Police Service was not attracting its proper share of young men with higher educational qualifications, what remedial measures they are taking.]
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, in the last two years, with the full concurrence and support of the police authorities and of the representatives of the Service associations, a new system has been introduced into the Police Service for the selection and training of young men of exceptional promise, and under a new regulation made by my right honourable friend, which comes into force on July 1, constables of as little as three years' service will be able to compete for selection for the new special course at the national Police College at Bramshill. Successful completion of this course carries with it automatic promotion. Taken with the generally improved conditions of service, these new arrangements should substantially improve the attractiveness of the Police Service to young men of good education.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. Can he say whether headmasters and appointments officers in our universities are fully informed of the prospects in the Police Service, since they may be in a good position to help both the Service and suitable applicants?
LORD DERWENT: Yes, my Lords: my right honourable friend the Home Secretary addressed an experimental meeting between police officers, university appointments officers and headmasters which was held at the Police College. The meeting was a success. There was a frank exchange of views, and a number of suggestions which were made are being followed up. It is hoped to arrange other meetings at the College of a similar character.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, while not being entirely out of sympathy with the purpose of the noble Lord who put the Question, may I ask the Minister of State whether he can assure us that products of the primary schools will not, in due course, be excluded from the police force or denied the opportunity of promotion within the police force? Is it not a fact that many products of elementary schools in many walks of life, inducing the police force, have done good work for the community?
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I fully agree with the noble Lord. In that respect ex-primary schoolboys will have just as much chance as anyone else. These new arrangements for what I may call higher education in the police are to make certain that those police officers who already show promise on the beat and are rather unusually intelligent will be able to have some accelerated promotion because of their intelligence.

PORT ORGANISATION
EARL ST. ALDYN: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Chesham will be making a statement on port organisation.

HOUSING BILL
2.48 p.m.
Report of Amendments received (according to Order).
Clause 2 [Power of Corporation to make loans to housing societies]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, during the Committee stage I promised noble Lords opposite that we would have another look at Clause 2 and at subsection (1) in order to see whether we could find a form of words to make it clear beyond doubt that the Housing Corporation could make loans to a housing society of up to 100 per cent. without prejudicing the Minister's powers to give directions under Clause 1. This Amendment and the second one have been devised for that purpose. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 34, after ("make") insert ("loans")—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 35, leave out ("loans to meet") and insert ("for the purpose of enabling the housing society to meet the whole or any part of any").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19 [Dwellings outside improvement areas]:
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, Clause 19 provides for the giving of notices for work to be done on premises which fall within Part II of the Bill, and that the notice to the owner shall be of twelve months. During Committee stage it was pointed out that in some cases twelve months was unnecessarily long, particularly where the full works contemplated in the Bill would not be required to bring dwellings up to the requisite standard—it might be necessary to provide only cooking facilities in a kitchen or water or something of that kind—and in that case it should be within the discretion of the local authority to give notice of a period shorter than twelve months. That is the purpose of this Amendment and I hope it will be acceptable. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 23, at end insert—
("(c) If the works are to a lower standard than full improvement, the improvement notice may. at the discretion of the local authority, specify a period shorter than twelve months.") —(Lord Silkin.)
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, in respect of Clause 19 certainly the Government would think it right to advise local authorities to exercise care when specifying a shorter period than twelve months, and in any case not to go below six months; but subject to that, I have pleasure in accepting this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, after Clause 34, to insert the following new clause:
Rent limit in Rent Act 1957: increase for improvement under Part II
" .—(1) In the case of an improvement effected in compliance with an immediate improvement notice or final improvement notice or an undertaking accepted under this Part of this Act, section 5 of the Rent Act 1957 (increase for improvements) shall have effect subject to the provisions of this section.
(2) If—

(a) the landlord, or a predecessor in title of the landlord, is the person who expended money on the improvement, and

(b) a standard grant under section 4 of the Act of 1959 in respect of the improvement, although obtainable, has not been obtained,

the said section 5(4) (under which, as amended by section 27 of the Act of 1959, the making of a standard grant reduces the increase of rent authorised by that section) shall apply as if that standard grant had been obtained.
(3) In any proceedings relating to the increase authorised by the said section 5 in respect of the improvement it shall be assumed, until the contrary is proved, that a standard grant was obtainable in respect of the improvement.
(4) The local authority shall, at the request in writing of the landlord or the tenant, give to him an estimate in writing of what the amount of the standard grant would have been if it had been obtained, and for the purposes of any such proceedings that estimate shall be sufficient evidence of what that amount would have been.
(5) Section 25 of the Rent Act 1957 shall apply for the interpretation of this section."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new clause has been put down by Her Majesty's Government in order to achieve the object of the Opposition's new clause which was moved in Committee and which I accepted in principle. Your Lordships will remember that I suggested
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then that it would be better to achieve this object by reference to the Rent Act, 1957, and that has been followed out. The substance of the new clause is in subsection (2), which provides that the amount spent on the improvement, on which the rent increase is calculated, shall be the cost less the grant, as if the grant had been taken, whether it has been taken or not. Subsection (3) puts the onus on the landlord of proving that the grant was not obtainable, and subsection (4) obliges the local authority to supply an estimate of what the grant would have been if a grant had been asked for and given. I think that this will meet the requirements which noble Lords want to put into the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 34, insert the said new clause. —(Lord Hastings.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, this is certainly an improvement on what was in the Bill before. It gives us some of the things we asked for, and I am very glad indeed to support it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN): My Lords, this Amendment is the Scottish counterpart of the Amendment to which your Lordships have just agreed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 34, insert the following new clause:
Increase in controlled rent in respect of improvement under Part II
".—(1) In the case of an improvement effected in compliance with an immediate improvement notice or a final improvement notice or an undertaking accepted under this Part of this Act, section 2(1)(a) of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act 1920 (increase for improvements) shall have effect subject to the provisions of this section.
(2) If a standard grant under section 19 of the Act of 1959 in respect of the improvement, although obtainable, has not been obtained, the said section 2(1)(a) (under which the amount of the permitted increase in rent in respect of expenditure incurred by the landlord on the improvement of a dwellinghouse to which the said Act of 1920 applies is limited to an amount calculated at a rate per annum not exceeding twelve and one half per cent of the amount so expended) shall apply as if for the reference therein to the amount

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expended on the improvement there were substituted a reference to that amount diminished by a sum equal to what the amount of the said standard grant would have been if it had been obtained.
(3) In any proceedings relating to the increase permitted by the said section 2(1)(a) in respect of the improvement it shall be assumed, until the contrary is proved, that a standard grant was obtainable in respect of the improvement.
(4) The local authority shall, at the request in writing of the landlord or the tenant, give to him an estimate in writing of what the amount of the standard grant would have been if it had been obtained, and for the purposes of any such proceedings that estimate shall be sufficient evidence of what that amount would have been.
(5) In this section 'landlord' and 'tenant' have the same meanings respectively as in the said Act of 1920."—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39 [Exclusion of dwellings controlled by Crown or a public authority]:
LORD TAYLOR LORD TAYLOR moved, in subsection (2), to add to paragraph (c):
"Provided that the housing association is recognised by the Corporation as a bona fide association, formed for the benefit of the tenants,".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment tries to make sure that premises controlled by housing associations formed for something other than a bona fide purpose do not escape being dealt with by control orders. When we were dealing with this matter in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, promised to look into it. He said that, in a sense, it was a possible gap in housing association law, rather than something which ought to be dealt with here, but his final words were that he would look into the question and report to us again, to see whether anything could or should be done. May I say that we are grateful for the kindness which the noble Lord has shown to our proposals so far? Long may it continue! I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 21, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Taylor.)
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I did look into this matter carefully and, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is no doubt aware, I wrote to his noble friend Lord Silkin, to say I regretted that we should
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not be able to accept his suggestion. My reason for saying that was that this would really be taking a large mallet in order to crush a very small gnat. This Amendment would exclude many hundreds of provident and non-profit-making housing societies from the exemption made in this clause, and we should hardly be justified in doing that. We feel, moreover, that housing associations, like local authorities and development corporations, can be relied upon to act responsibly in regard to the improvement of their dwellings—and in this Part of the Act we are dealing with improvements and not with other matters. I think that it would be derogatory to the housing associations not to treat them in a responsible manner, particularly at a moment when we hope to get many more housing associations started.
As regards the Amendment itself, there are other objections, apart from that of principle. First, there is the question of recognition. This cannot be a function or purpose of the Housing Corporation, whose primary function is to lend money to housing societies. Before it does so, the Corporation will go thoroughly into the background of a society, its formation, its stability and reputability. It is not likely that it would lend money to a housing society which has not been formed with the view to helping people who want to build houses for themselves at cost-rents or who want to share in cost-rent schemes. Apart from that, by the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, recognition is really vested in the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies. That is where the test comes. The societies must not be trading for a profit, and it is difficult to see where these other societies would creep in or be any sort of danger.
Secondly, the Amendment is rather vague, because it does not make provision for machinery of recognition, if the bona fide of the association has to be decided by the Housing Corporation. Therefore, I do not think that the Amendment would stand in its present form. But our main objection is to the principle that, in order to catch one or two potentially unsatisfactory housing associations, we should put into Part II of the Bill a proviso which would limit the exemption of housing societies from the liability to compulsory improvement

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orders. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will not wish to press his Amendment.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I see the objections which the noble Lord has raised, that we are introducing a new function for the Housing Corporation, in making it, as it were, the registrar of bona fide housing societies. Our concern is with people who would form a housing society in order to avoid the effects of the application of a control order, as a sort of crooked operation—and that could be done. But let us hope it will be seldom done; and if it is done, we must try to expose it in due course and deal with it in some other way. I realise that to try to do it in the way we have suggested may be impracticable, and we do not wish to press the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 46 [Standard grants excluded for certain houses and other buildings in multiple occupation]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is also put down to meet an objection raised by noble Lords opposite on the Committee stage. They wished to enable a standard grant to be paid for the improvement of a house in multiple occupation to the level of the full range of standard amenities. This Amendment restores the availability of grant for improvements to that full standard in the sort of case noble Lords opposite had in mind. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 28, after ("1959") insert ("so far as it relates to applications made by virtue of section 43 of this Act").—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, this Amendment and the next one substantially redeem the assurance the Minister was good enough to give on the Committee stage. It strengthens the clause substantially and meets the point the local authorities had in mind. We are grateful.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 29, leave out from ("made") to ("in").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 54 [Conditions attaching to improvement grants and standard grants in England and Wales: rent limit]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a minor Amendment repairing an omission. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 23, after ("Sections") insert ("2,").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 58:
Amount of improvement grant for dwellings provided by conversion of houses of three or more storeys in England and Wales
58.—(1) Section 32(1)(b) of the Act of 1958 (which limits the amount of an improvement grant under Part II of that Act for each dwelling provided by the improvement works to four hundred pounds or such other amount as may be prescribed) shall have effect in relation to a dwelling provided by a conversion of a house which consists of three or more storeys as if for the words "four hundred pounds" there were substituted the words "five hundred pounds".
(2) The reference in the foregoing subsection to the number of storeys shall, if any of the dwellings provided by the improvement works is a dwelling all or part of which is in the basement, include the basement as one of the number of storeys of the house.
(3) The Minister's power under the said section 32(1)(b) to vary the amount specified in that paragraph shall be exercisable separately as respects the amount of four hundred pounds mentioned in that section and as respects the amount of five hundred pounds substituted by this section in the cases specified in this section.
3.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "effect", and to leave out subsections (2) and (3), and insert:
"as if for the words 'four hundred pounds' there were substituted the words 'six hundred pounds'."
The noble Viscount said: My noble friend Lord Colville of Culross is unable to be here to-day and has asked me to move this Amendment for him. I must apologise for a mere Scotsman moving an English Amendment, but if it is for the convenience of your Lordships I will speak to this Amendment and the next one, which is a Scottish Amendment, at the same time, and then I will move them separately.
I have been supplied with a lot of figures relating to England, and I am sure that Her Majesty's Government have these

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figures. Therefore I will only summarise them, because I do not wish to bore your Lordships with too many statistics. The Country Landowners' Association in England approached 46 rural district councils, who replied. Of those 40 rural district councils, 6 said that, as a matter of policy, they did not pay the maximum grant in any case. Eleven sent in detailed figures for 1961, 1962 and 1963 which show that, out of 973 approved cases, the approved cost of 453 of the houses was over £800; and out of 941 cases, the approved cost of 245 was over £1,000. The discrepancy in the total numbers arises through Malton, which I understand is in Yorkshire, who give their figures as averages, and their average cost over those three years was £1,273 per house, £942 per house, £1,081 per house, and for a part period, £1,249.
Her Majesty's Government on the Committee stage rested their case, I thought, on average figures of grant paid. I should like to nail the fallacy and danger of this argument, I hope once and for all, by three quite simple examples. Ten houses costing £800 each, which is a total of £8,000, rank for an average grant of £400. Five houses at £1,000, and five houses at £600, total average cost £800, would rank for an average grant of £350—the same cost for the same number of houses, but a totally different figure, because you are playing with averages. I will give one last example. Five houses at £900, five houses at £700, a total of £8,000, would rank for an average grant each of £375. The total cost is exactly the same, the total number of houses is the same, but, on the average figure for grant, you have three completely different answers. I think tint proves the fallacy of trying to get at this through averages. That is the general theme for England and Scotland, although the figures vary.
Converted houses, of course, mean better living conditions for workers and—an important point—for retired folk and people who find it difficult to be housed other than by local authorities. In other words, conversion will relieve the pressure on local authorities, and it is a cheap way of getting this done. Nevertheless, the conversion or improvement of a house results in an increased rateable value, and often in the particular district an increased poundage on the rates. Therefore, quite a "cut" comes back to the local authority.
Conversion also, theoretically, results in increased allowable rent. But this is, in country districts, largely a theoretical exercise, because the rent you may charge is governed, certainly for agricultural workers, by the Agricultural Wages Act, which limits the rent at the present moment to 11s. a week. You can appeal to the Board and possibly get it put up, but if you did that, you would not get a farm worker, and I think that is why nobody ever does it. On the other hand, the bigger the grant you receive, the less increase in rent you are allowed to pass on, which is very just and proper. Private enterprise housing in the country seldom passes on the rent or rate increase to the agricultural worker, because the rent and rates is payable by the farmer and owner. Local authorities, on the other hand, have to pass on the whole.
There are some factors in cost of construction which to some degree affect England and parts of Scotland. Cost of materials in remoter places includes cost of transport. As an example of that, I will quote the cost of cement in the London area, which is of the order of £5 to £6 a ton, as compared with a not very remote part of the world, Stonehaven, near where I live, where it is over £9 a ton. And all other materials include a fairly heavy delivery charge. Also, workers' travelling time has to be allowed for. When the workers have to go into the country you have to pay both for the travelling time and the transport to get them there. There is more bad weather in some parts of the country than in others, which again has to be paid for; and, in particular, in the country districts, there is the cost of drainage, electricity and water (this is not so in every case, but in a large number of cases) which is bound to put up the cost.
Another factor which does not seem to be accounted for is the size of accommodation which is often necessary in country districts to prevent overcrowding, no other accommodation being available. Costs of new houses vary largely from house to house and district to district. The cost of land is not always shown in the cost of the scheme; very often it is shown differently. Also the costs of roadworks, drainage and sewerage are often in a separate scheme, and, therefore, these figures are very difficult to compare. By the time all the loans have

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been paid off on a house originally costing about £2,000 the cost of that house is probably much nearer £5,000. The cost of converting a house, which the Government and the ratepayers would find between them, even if the cost of building or converting the house is in the order of £1,800, would be a figure of not much more than that, so it is a very good bargain however you look at it.
I have given the noble Lord the totals of the costs of actual housing in Kincardineshire, my own county—I will not quote them all to your Lordships—which I took from the housing factor's files from 1950 to 1963–64. The total is for 835 houses. At the beginning the average cost of a house—and I am again using averages—was £479. In 1963–64 the average figure was £1,186, which shows the rate at which the costs have been going up. The first nine houses in 1964–65 cost an average of £1,254, and they all received the maximum grant. With regard to local authority conversions, my own local authority converted some houses. In 1960–61 they converted eight houses at an average cost of £1,240. In 1963, they converted three others at a place called Auchinblae, two of them at a cost of £1,460, and one at £1,336. So their costs are comparable to private enterprise costs.
I should like to draw attention to the houses in Cove Bay because the local authority applied to the Secretary of State, and because they said that they had architecturally to fit them into the rest of the village they got an increased grant. Last year a private individual improved another house in the same village and had to comply with exactly the same conditions. His costs for doing that were £1,031, as against the local authority's costs of £1,240, and he did not get an increased grant. The Inverness-shire totals, which I have also with me, are really rather shattering. Inverness, of course, is very remote, as one knows; and again I will try to keep the figures to the absolute minimum. In 1961, they converted 21 houses, 15 of which were above the cost of £800. The average price was £1,028. In 1962, they converted 29 houses, 24 of which were above £800, and the average cost was £1,214. In 1963, they converted 37 houses, 26 of which were above the £800 mark. The average grants they received on these houses were,
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in 1963 £381; in 1962 £387, and in 1961 £376, which again brings out the point of the danger of averaging these things. It just does not fit the bill at all.
I have a rough knowledge of the Scottish conditions because I have myself converted and re-conditioned about 2 per cent. of the total number of houses which have been converted in that county, which amounts, I think, to 18 to date. I have done the surveying, I have made up the bills of quantities, the specifications and the drawing myself, and obtained prices. The fact that there are two yet to do is one of the reasons why I am keen on this subject. Nevertheless, I claim that the fact that costs of building have gone up—this is nothing to do with averages at all—proves that what I am saying is true; and, so far as I know, it applies to England and Scotland. It appears to me that the Secretary of State has inadequate figures on this question, because when I sent these figures to him after a little bit of shuffling, St. Andrew's House rang up the housing factor in Stonehaven and asked him what it was all about. Therefore, I think the liaison is not quite what it might have been.
So far as individual application to the Secretary of State for an increase in grant is concerned, by and large it takes somewhere between nine months and a year to get through the paraphernalia before you can carry out a renovation. If after that you have to go to the Secretary of State before you can do a job, it is going to take another five or six weeks, at the very least, and my experience is that any approach to the Scottish Office takes considerably longer than that. Therefore, I do not think that that answers any of these problems.
The Association of County Councils were approached, and I believe they recommended this Scottish figure of £500, which at this month of this year I do not quarrel with. I am looking to what will be happening in the general rise of building costs in the future. The Association of County Councils are an interested party, and therefore it would be a good thing to discuss it with the other parties interested in this bargain. I would suggest that a way out might be that in the quarterly housing returns (which go into minute detail of the appliances fitted to each house, and where and why, and all the rest of it) could be added the number of houses

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ranking for grant above the 50 per cent. figure. That would give us a clear indication, without any averages at all, of just how many people were having to pay a large sum above the 50 per cent. grant. I do not think this would cause any real difficulty, because all the machinery appears to exist. I think it would give us a feeling of confidence that if the Secretary of State and the Minister of Housing did not review these grants, and if evidence was laid that it was necessary to put them up, we could then have the normal opportunity of asking questions or, at any rate, of putting on a little pressure. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 67, line 18, leave out from ("effect") to the end of line 32, and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Stonehaven.)
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I should like to support my noble friend in this exercise, because presumably these limits were right when they were set, and during the several years that have passed since then there has been an almost unprecedented rise in the cost of building, particularly of the smaller items such as repairs. If the Minister values this form of providing proper up-to-date housing —and I believe he does—I should have thought it was a good thing to keep this grant figure constantly moving to keep in touch with the rising cost of building. We all know that this increase has been going on. I know, particularly from a church point of view, that repairs are very much more expensive to-day than they were a few years ago. Indeed, the Minister has said himself that the industry is heavily overloaded, and we believe that there is very strong bidding between the contractors for labour, so that a great deal of building labour is costing far more than the trade union rates for any particular job. I do not know sufficiently about the background of the Bill to know precisely when these particular limits were set, but certainly I would suggest that the grants should be kept in line with the cost of building.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, I rise to support this Amendment, because I believe that one of the most important things we have to do, if we are to have really good housing in this country, is to go further and more speedily with conversions. We have
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talked for a great many years of the benefits of conversion. I remember being on two Housing Committees, one to deal with English housing and the other with Scottish housing, before the war, and in both Reports which were issued it was recommended that more effort should be made to convert houses for the use for which they were then, and are now, really wanted. We have done a certain amount, but I am perfectly certain that we have not gone sufficiently far and with sufficient speed in this matter. I feel that if we do not do something further now, those who come after us, in ten, twenty, thirty or forty years' time will be making the same type of speeches and will still be imploring the authorities for more houses; and we shall have had an enormous waste of housing in this country.
We can build new houses, but there is a great deal more which can be done by further conversion. I quite agree with my noble friend about the difficulties of averages; but, after all, he himself had to fall back on averages. We all know that the average cost is one which applies to no specific house at all. I would ask Her Majesty's Government whether there has been a detailed examination of the costs. As my noble friend has pointed out, he has gone into the question of improvements in his own area and has given us some of the details, and it is quite extraordinary what the variations are. I suggest that we should be able to have a clearer statement of costs as they are to-day. As the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has said, they are going up. I believe that the greatest effort should be made to get on with this job of conversion. Yet I think I am right in saying that in some areas less has been done in the last few years than was done, say, about five years ago. I would ask Her Majesty's Government to consider this question of conversion very seriously, as one of the ways, as we have known for many years, that can make an enormous difference to the housing problem—in other words, make available good and comfortable housing for the people of this country.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I, too, should like to support this Amendment and, more especially, the next one —for I gather that we are discussing the two together. In Scotland this particular

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clause applies only to houses of three or four storeys, and this often means, when improvements are undertaken, that it is necessary to add a room to the house in order to create a bathroom; otherwise, the house becomes so small that economically it is not worth improving. The trouble is that in these days of high building costs it is quite impossible to do so for as little as £1,000. The cost is nearly always between £1,200 and £1,400, as I know only too well from experience. I feel that if the limit were raised from £400 to £600, instead of £500, as provided in the Bill, it would encourage more landlords to undertake these improvements. After all, they are so ly needed, and the longer they are delayed, the greater the cost will be, both to the landlord and to the country. I hope, therefore, that the Government will be able to see their way to accepting both Amendments No. 11 and No. 12.
3.25 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL NAVY (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, having been exposed to something of a barrage, I rise, very diffidently, to reply to these two Amendments, which, as my noble friend suggested, I think it would be useful to take together. First of all, I should like to repeat one main point which I made at Committee stage: that I am at one with my noble friend who has moved this Amendment and those of my noble friends who have supported him; and, more important, the Government are at one with them in agreeing on the importance of doing what we can to encourage house improvements either by standard grants or by discretionary grants. And that, of course, is why we are taking steps, in both Part II and Part III of this Bill, in various ways to encourage more rapid and more comprehensive improvements of houses.
Having said that, I should like to try to clear away what I think is a common misconception here, and one which, to a certain extent, I have heard reflected in some of the things which have been said this afternoon. The discretionary grant—the one we are dealing with here —is not intended to cover half the cost of the works of improvement, whatever that figure may be. Strictly speaking, a discretionary grant is a contribution based on a percentage of up to 50 per cent. towards the first £800 of the cost
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of improvements. For this reason, it is not enough simply to point to the substantial rise in building costs since 1954. I would agree entirely with my noble friend that building costs have risen substantially since then. I cannot quite recall the precise figure which my noble friend quoted, but I think they have risen by anything from 45 to 50 per cent. in the period with which we are dealing—that is, since 1954, when the £800 limit was fixed.
But the acid test is whether the works of improvement required to bring the house up to the 12-point standard, as it is known, can reasonably be carried out within a maximum figure of £800. That is the point. During Committee stage I promised my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, Who then moved the Amendment that my right honourable friend and his Ministry would continue with their examination of the evidence that was being collected on the cost of grantaided schemes of improvement, and that I would say anything more I could at Report stage in the light of that reexamination. We have looked at this matter, and the Ministry have reexamined the evidence, and I come back now to give the results of it.
We have taken a random sample of the schemes approved in rural areas in the United Kingdom during the first quarter of 1964, and we have given very detailed examination (for which I think my noble friend Baroness Horsbrugh was asking) to it. I have called it a random sample, but it was not quite a random sample, because the schemes we were looking at were those selected by the Rural District Councils' Association—and I should like to pay tribute to the co-operation which they have given over this—and related to the cases that had been brought to my right honourable friend's attention by the mover of a smilar Amendment, Mr. Ridley, in another place. They were the specific cases which the proponents of this scheme had brought to the Minister's attention.
We looked at 170 cases. In 54 of these the cost of the improvements came to over £800, which is the crucial figure here. However, after applying the necessary three tests which are laid down in the practice notes (and I will remind your Lordships in a moment of what those

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three tests are), there were only 7, or 4 per cent. of the 170, where the works need have cost more than £800. What are these three tests? They are, first, that the cost should not be above or near the cost of providing comparable new accommodation; secondly, that the grant-attracting element of the cost should exclude all items not necessary to bring a house up to the 12-point standard; and thirdly, that the local authority should calculate the cost-attracting element of the grant by reference to the standards used for the improvement of their own houses. So far as I know, my noble friends have not queried those tests. When those tests were applied, only 7 of the 170 cases—4 per cent. of the cases —need have cost more than £800.
LORD HAWKE: Could my noble friend say why he has chosen 170 cases for rural areas? I should have thought that the greater need for modernisation was in the towns.
EARL JELLICOE: I do not think that is the case. I think it is precisely in the rural areas where this is most likely to hit. But we have looked carefully with the Association of Municipal Corporations at the town cases. There was no pressure for any increase from them. I think the pressure for this increase, both in this House and another place, has been mainly in respect of rural areas, save in Scotland for the tenements. But because of that—and I would ask your Lordships to believe that the Ministry have looked at this very carefully—we still take the view that there is, as yet, insufficient evidence to warrant a general increase in the maximum amount of the discretionary grants. Nevertheless, as I also endeavoured to point out at Committee, the Government do not wish to be inflexible on this matter, if for no other reason than that they, like my noble friends, wish to get this improvement going forward and going forward more rapidly.
I should like to apprise your Lordships of two developments that we have in mind. First, it has seemed significant to us that in each of the 7 cases where the reasonable cost of improvement would have exceeded £800 a substantial item of the cost was that for providing a new floor to replace the existing brick, earth floor or stone flag floor. Your
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Lordships know (I mentioned this point, also, at Committee stage) that in particular cases, provided that my right honourable friend agrees, local authorities may pay grant above the normal maximum. My right honourable friend therefore proposes to advise local authorities that they may seek his concurrence to pay more than the normal maximum of discretionary grant where they consider that the need for this arises from the provision of new floors in the circumstances I have mentioned. That is the first assurance.
The second is perhaps more substantial. My right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government feels that it would be right from now on to conduct a continuous running review of the cost of grant-aided schemes. I think this is the sort of thing my noble friend Lady Horsbrugh had in mind. This will be carried out by a small special technical staff who are being recruited over the next few months specifically to supervise this work of improvement. This will, we believe, provide my right honourable friend with the eyes and ears he needs, the information he needs on which he can act, if necessary, to alter the present statutory maximum of grants. As your Lordships know, the Minister already has power to vary by order, at any time, the amount of grant, and it would certainly be his intention to do so should he find it necessary in the light of this continuous running review he proposes to institute. I would only add that in Scotland my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland proposes to do precisely the same thing: to institute a continuous running review. If that review shows that the cost of improvement is rising substantially above £1,000 (it is £1,000 in the case of Scotland), he will take precisely the same action as the Minister of Housing and Local Government proposes to take in England and Wales. I hope that, with those two assurances, my noble friends will not press these two Amendments this afternoon.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that the very fact that these 170 cases were taken in the first quarter of this year—when it was well known that this Bill was coming forward; in fact I think

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it had already been published, raising the maximum grant receivable from £400 to £500—would mean that nobody would be likely to come forward with cases costing more than £800? This, I feel, may have biased the figures in some way towards the cheaper schemes during this particular period, and I feel he might have got a completely different result if he had taken schemes coming forward before there was any wind of what was in this Bill.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am not quite certain that I follow the argument. In fact the schemes are in respect of England and Wales, where the increase does not apply. This information was furnished by proponents of an increase themselves, and presumably they would not have furnished evidence, as it were, against themselves.
3.36 p.m.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, this is a worrying debate, and I do not find it easy to come down flat one way or the other on the merits of the case. What does worry me a little is that the Minister of Defence for the Royal Navy—who is just as good at defending the Ministry of Housing and Local Government as the Navy—has intimated that, if this additional work on floors and indeed the whole business has to take place, then this great Ministry of Housing and Local Government, which is a pretty extraordinarily big show, must have some additional specialist staff in order to handle it. The Government have lost control over their establishment altogether. They expand the Civil Service staff on the slightest provocation, and this is a slight provocation; and every expansion of staff means an expansion of accommodation and so on, and this Bill in itself is somewhat inflationary in character. But the other interesting thing about the discussion is that the whole debate has been in favour of inflation. Every speaker on the other side, every noble Lord and the noble Lady, has been making an inflationary case to put up public expenditure and put up grants. They may have a case. They say that wages have gone up; indeed one noble Lord has said that in the competition for labour employers are
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in some cases paying well above trade union rates, so that the whole thing is inflationary.
What we come back to every time is that everybody has a case for something or another, and they make it, and all of them have their spokesmen in Parliament; it may be wages, salaries, technicians, professionals, the higher Civil Service and so on, and they all make a case. And what is the case based on? That the cost of living has gone up. That prices have gone up. And this is, of course, the fundamental point to which the Government ought to give their minds with greater energy and determination than they have done so far. It is this steady increase in prices for one reason or another, some of them understandable and some of them not understandable, that leads to these claims for increased wages, salaries and public expenditure of one sort and another. But if this were not a debate about grants to aid property owners to improve their property—which in itself is a desirable thing in principle, as long as it is not unduly taken advantage of; if this were a debate about the claims of work people or even lower ranks of the Public Service to increased money, we should have heard from the Minister and from the spokesmen opposite warnings about inflationary influences. But as this is a debate about grants to enable property owners to improve their property nobody on the other side has mentioned inflation and it has been left to this common or garden Socialist to mention the possibilities of inflation. It is funny, but it is also serious. So noble Lords opposite are in favour of inflation where their own friends' money is concerned; they are against it when the pockets of humble people are concerned. However, the lesson for all of us is that the sooner the Government can somehow keep prices level, keep them down, the better it will be, and the less we shall have of these inflationary arguments which have entirely monopolised noble Lords opposite this afternoon.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I should like to ask him: Does he not agree that it is better to convert and repair houses, if it can be done well, than to have to build all new houses?
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: I concede that that may well be true; but it does not invalidate my argument in the least.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, I think I should have replied before. I am so sorry: I was asleep.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am afraid that I have now put the Question and collected the voices; the noble Viscount is too late.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I can make my speech on the next Amendment.

PORT ORGANISATION
3.41 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, may I ask your Lordships' leave to interrupt the proceedings for a moment because, with your Lordships' permission, I will now repeat a statement on Port Organisation which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport:
"I asked the National Ports Council last year to advise me on the future of the Ports in the Forth Estuary and the Bristol Channel. I hope they will be able to let me have their reports on these particular questions shortly. In the meantime, they have told me that they have found it impracticable to consider organisation in these two areas without at the same time coming to a provisional conclusion about estuarial organisation generally, with particular reference to the future of the British Transport Docks Board.
"The Council have now reported to me their conclusions on these questions of principle—
First, the Council are satisfied that in general their national plan should be based on a limited number of major port authorities, in most cases on an estuarial basis, on the lines proposed by the Rochdale Committee. The organisation and ownership of these new authorities may well follow varying patterns depending on what is best suited to the area. But they recognise that there will continue to be a number of independent medium-sized and smaller ports with important functions to fulfil.
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Second, certain of these major groupings should be under the control of the British Transport Docks Board. In these cases methods will be worked out to secure full consultation and co-operation between the Board and local interests.
"I told the House on July 10 last year that the Government accepted in principle the general idea of estuarial or regional groupings wherever likely to promote greater efficiency. In most cases these groupings will be brought about by harbour reorganisation schemes in accordance with the Harbours Act. Detailed proposals will of course have to be considered on their merits in accordance with the procedures laid down in the Act. I have asked the Council to go ahead on the lines they propose. But I have made it clear, in view of my responsibilities as Minister under the Harbours Act, that I am not forming any opinion in advance about any particular amalgamation scheme.
"I welcome the Council's proposal that the Docks Board should continue as a permanent feature of the ports industry. The Board has achieved a major success since its establishment under the Transport Act of 1962. In some areas the Council's proposals for estuarial reorganisation may mean the loss by the Board of certain ports. In other areas, where the Board is already the predominant dock authority, the proposals may involve the assumption of wider responsibilities.
"So much for general principles. To-day I can only speak about one particular case, that of the ports of Bristol and Newport. The Council have told me that they see no advantage in proceeding with any amalgamation of these two ports. I accept this conclusion."
My Lords, that is the statement.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, for giving us this statement. I listened to it—I had the advantage of looking at it beforehand—with rather mixed feelings. I think there is a little contradiction here and there. However, having got over the first organisational difficulties, this Committee which the

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Minister has set up has now come to a conclusion on how it is going to consider the matter and it is to go on looking at the question of estuarial as well as other types of organisation. Then, at the end of the Statement, it transpires that it has made a decision at any rate about the Bristol Channel which is final and decisive—namely, that there is to be no amalgamation on an estuarial basis between Newport and Bristol.
Having been brought up in Bristol for many years in my youth—something like eighteen years—I personally think that is a wise decision. I know Bristol. Bristol has a municipally owned dock organisation. It is the only one of its kind in the country owned in that way. It has been extraordinarily successful. I would have hesitated long at any time to want to see it placed under some estuarial organisation which would not know half so much about the matter as the Bristol City Corporation do, with decades of experience. So I greatly welcome the last part of the Statement. But I just cannot yet understand how the other wanderings to be conducted through these inquiries are going on; and how far the example of the decision for the Bristol Channel is likely to be effective elsewhere.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, for repeating this statement to us to-day. I, too, should like to welcome the decision, which the Minister has taken on the recommendation of the Council, not to proceed with the amalgamation of Newport and Bristol. From what I know of the situation, I am quite sure that that is the right decision to take, and I am quite certain that it will be warmly received in South Wales. So far as the future is concerned, may I ask the Minister whether he will recommend to his right honourable friend that, before taking any decision about future amalgamations affecting South Wales, he will have regard to the fact that in the next year or so there are to be fast motor roads between South Wales and London and the Midlands, and that this may affect the ports in South Wales to a great extent?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, on the whole, I must be grateful to the noble Earl and to the noble Lord for what they have said about this statement. Of
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course, when schemes are proposed to my right honourable friend he will take into consideration just the kind of factor that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has put forward, as well as other factors which may bear upon them. Although, of necessity, I have had to speak in terms of principle only with regard to the estuarial and regional groupings—they can be spoken of only in principle—it is a fact, which I do not think has really been inconsistent, that this negative information, if I may call it that, about Bristol and Newport should be taken at this stage because of the great interest, and to some extent anxiety, that the matter of Bristol, in particular, and also Newport has caused locally. In fact, the noble Earl stressed to us the importance of this, and I thought it only proper that this piece of information, negative though it may be, should be put before the House as soon as possible.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged. This gives me the opportunity to say that I also welcome the decision to continue the National Docks Board.

HOUSING BILL
3.50 p.m.
Report stage resumed.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVENmoved in subsection (1) to leave out "five" and insert "six". The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I now reply on both these Amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, has roused me slightly. I was not going to bring out these facts, but while I agree with him that this Bill is, in a way, inflationary, I would point out that the proposal for collecting these figures is not necessarily inflationary. Our own local authorities have all these figures at their finger-tips. It is merely that they are not being used properly by central Government. Therefore, I do not think that that will add very much to the cost.
I must revert to one of the real reasons why it is so necessary to give all the encouragement one can to the carrying out of these improvements. In the area of St. Clement's in Aberdeen—Aberdeen, as your Lordships know, has been run by a Socialist Council for a long time —there live to-day some 3,200

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families. Among those 3,200 families—this is something I am not proud of—there are 280 baths; only 65 of those 3,200 families have the luxury of a separate w.c.; 388 of those families have no separate piped water, and only 153 of those families have all "mod. cons." I am not proud of these facts. These are the people I want to help. A Socialist town council for years has not managed to do so.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, it is all very nice for the noble Viscount to say that. He has referred to the disgraceful state of affairs and has taken a side-swipe at the Socialist town council. But who built these properties without these amenities? Conservative private enterprise developers, whom the Government are now encouraging again.
LORD HAWKE: Was the noble Lord brought up with all "mod. cons."?
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, Lord Morrison of Lambeth will remember that the w.c. was a Scottish invention, but it was not invented until fairly recent times. The buildings and properties to which I am referring have been there for a very long time indeed; and furthermore, as an alleviating fact —not one I am proud of—the rent of this accommodation is only 11s. a week. Therefore, while admittedly I perhaps took a side-swipe at the Socialist town council—I would not deny it—I thought also that the noble Lord took a sideswipe, or rather made a frontal attack, at the suggested "inflation" from this side of the House. I thought "fair do's for all", and I hope he does not mind, because there is no malice in this at all.
I am delighted to hear the remarks of my noble friend the Minister, for this review is just the thing that is wanted. Obviously, a Back Bencher can produce only limited figures and cannot possibly see the whole picture, and while we feel strongly and always think that we are right, we know that we cannot possibly be right overall. I ask the Minister to urge upon his noble friends not to hide their light under a bushel and to let somebody else see these figures, too. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 67, line 41, leave out ("five") and insert ("six").—(Viscount Stonehaven.)
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I beg leave to
withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD TAYLORmoved, after Clause 66, to insert the following new clause:
Inspection of houses by local authority.
.—(1) On the request in writing by a person who is or has been within the last three months a tenant or lodger in a house to which Part II of the Act of 1961 applies, the local authority shall as soon as practicable cause the house to be inspected, and shall take any appropriate action under the Act of 1961 which the condition of the house or the circumstances of its ocupation make desirable.
(2) The local authority shall within three months inform the person making the request of the action it has taken.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall move this Amendment briefly. I just want to say that I think it was Sir Charles Harrington who invented the water closet. Whether he was a Scot or not, I do not know. He was a courtier at Queen Elizabeth's Court and he described it in a book called Ajax, but I did not know he was a Scot.
Amendment No. 13 seeks to do something we tried to do at much greater length at Committee stage, namely to enable ordinary individuals to make a complaint about the conditions under which they live and to get an answer from the local authority. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, was very conciliatory, because we proposed that action should automatically follow. He pointed out that this might be folly. We agreed with him, and we struck out the third and fourth portions of our Amendment. We also took out the word "forthwith" to describe the action of a local authority on receiving a complaint, and put in its place "as soon as practicable", which seemed to make the proposal very moderate indeed. Lord Hastings said that he was willing to consider our subsections (1) and (2) about inspection and report of information, and the question of the local authority's letting the tenant or lodger know the result of the inspection. I very much hope that the Government will look with sympathy on this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 66, insert the said new clause. —(Lord Taylor.)
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am grateful to Lord Taylor for recapitulating so briefly what happened on the previous occasion. He made some complimentary remarks about my being conciliatory and helpful. If I may say so, he and his friends were helpful, too, in withdrawing the two last subsections, (3) and (4), in the previous Amendment, and Riving us an opportunity to discuss the first two subsections of it in a rather different form. I have gone into this matter thoroughly and have written to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, about it. Noble Lords opposite realise that they still have not got over two difficulties in the drafting of their clause: that is, to prevent frivolous and repetitive requests, and also to avoid the situation in which, unknown to the applicant, a recent inspection has been made and thus the local authority would be required to make another which would be quite unnecessary.
After discussing these matters at great length within the Department, we have come to the conclusion—and this is something upon which I was not fully briefed on the last occasion—that it would be setting a precedent which it would be desirable to avoid. The general pattern of housing and public health legislation, going right back to the Public Health Act, 1875, in Disraeli's time, has been based on the supposition that local authorities will act responsibly in the exercise of the general powers vested in them; and, indeed, in the case of many of the provisions of Part IV of this Bill, new powers have been actively sought by the local authorities on the ground that they will use them responsibly, a situation in which we acquiesce.
It is normal, however, to provide certain default powers in extreme cases where a local authority fail in their duty. The pattern is repeated in the Housing Act, 1957, which, noble Lords will remember, is to be read together with this Bill. Therefore it is difficult to put in this Bill something entirely new which does not conform with the general powers in the Housing Act, 1957, and which constitutes a precedent compared to all previous legislation in housing and public health affairs. These default powers provide machinery whereby any four local government electors or other people acting on their behalf may complain, either to the
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county council or to the Minister as the case may be, that the authority
"have failed to exercise their powers under the Act … where those powers ought to have been exercised".
This power of complaint is, of course, associated with the power of the Minister to hold public inquiries and to make directions as to the remedy for the authority's default. But noble Lords opposite will not seriously suggest that this is precisely the same as enabling just one person to requisition, positively to enforce, one inspection. That, surely, is a very different thing.
I am again forced back upon the argument that the local authority departments are already hard pressed and they are going to be very much more hard pressed as a result of this Bill, particularly their public health and surveyor's departments. They will be having a lot of extra work as a result of this Bill and they will hardly be able to cope with it, particularly those aspects which touch upon slum clearance and improvement and compulsory improvement areas, without making a programme for their work and covering their whole area systematically. Therefore we really think that it is asking too much for them to be diverted from their plans by one person, in conditions which sometimes might not be at all justifiable.
To anticipate objections which may be made from noble Lords opposite and which have, I think, been made on a previous occasion, I would say that I really do not think we are depriving the private citizen of any inherent right. As I have said, he has not had this right in previous legislation on these matters and, after all, people are not slow in these days to write to their local authorities to complain, nor, indeed, to write to the Minister or their Member of Parliament; and it is certainly not our general impression in the Ministry of Housing and Local Government that local authorities disregard these complaints when they get them.
It may be said that some housing authorities are so big that they cannot possibly know what is going on in every part of their area, but as a matter of fact our experience again teaches us that it is very often the largest authorities who know the most, because they are very well organised with a specialist staff, having the funds to tackle this

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matter in a more systematic and highly specialised manner than smaller authorities. Therefore, in spite of the fact that noble Lords are merely trying to do something which seems to them eminently fair and reasonable, I think they are really making a bit too much out of this, and that the private citizen will not be at a disadvantage. The local authorities, on the other hand, would have very great difficulty in working this sort of provision, and I feel that we can have complete faith in their responsibility and in their ability to tackle these problems conscientiously and systematically, so that people will not be left very long before their problems are dealt with. Obviously, the local authorities will have a sense of priorities and will tackle the worst areas first. I hope therefore that noble Lords will feel they need not press this Amendment.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Part of his reply was similar to the reply he made when we moved the former Amendment—namely, that it would force the local authorities out of their planned order of campaign for dealing with these areas. We accepted that, and we said that we were not going to push that point at all. All we want to make sure is that an ordinary member of the public who is in a situation where the landlord is really doing something which he ought not to be doing knows that he can get an inspector along, that the inspector will look, and that he will hear the result of the inspection.
I would accept at once that if there has been a recent inspection, that is a fair reason for not immediately re-inspecting; and, also, that there might be frivolous people who would abuse this right. But I cannot, for the life of me, see that it is wrong to put this provision in here, and I am sorry the noble Lord has not felt that the Government could accept it. But it is a small matter, and I have no doubt that most local authorities will do as we want them to do and will, in fact, act in exactly this way. But there will be some who do not, and for their failure to act the Government must be responsible. We certainly do not propose to press this Amendment, but we are sorry that the Government are not accepting it.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
4.6 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, after Clause 68, to insert the following new clause:
Security of tenure during the operation of notices under Part II of Act of 1961
".—(1) Where any notice under section 15 or section 1 of the Act of 1961 is in operation in respect of a house possession of that house or of any part of it shall not be obtained by means of a notice to quit until the works listed in the notice or in the notice as varied by a court under section 17 of the Act of 1961 have been executed or the notice has been revoked under that section:
Provided that the person who has served the notice to quit may apply to the court for possession if the local authority certifies that that is necessary for the proper execution of the works and that alternative accommodation is available for those dispossessed.
(2) On the application of the local authority or of any person to whom the notice to quit applies and after considering any representations by the person who served the notice to quit, the court may suspend its operation for a period of three months from the date when it would have come into effect under the foregoing subsection."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an Amendment which was moved in another place. It received a considerable amount of discussion there, and I believe that at the end of the day the Minister promised to look into the points that had been raised. Very briefly, this new clause provides that where a notice has been given under Section 15 or Section 16 of the 1961 Act—that is, a notice requiring certain work to be done in a house which is in multi-family occupation—the tenants shall be protected against eviction until the work has been finally completed.
This Amendment arises mainly from the experience of the City of Sheffield. They found that in a large number of cases where valid notices had been given under Section 15 of the 1961 Act, because the house was over-occupied in relation to the amenities provided, landlords had got rid of some of their tenants, with the result that the house was no longer over-occupied, so that the notice was no longer valid, and the landlord was not obliged to comply with it. Once that position obtained the landlord was free to re-let, and the local authority were compelled to go through the same process all over again. That would have sounded fanciful, but for the fact that the Sheffield Corporation say that they have had a great deal of

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experience of this very thing—of landlords turning people out in order that the house should not be over-occupied. Then, with the notice becoming invalid and the landlord re-letting, the local authority have been compelled to serve a fresh notice and the same thing has happened.
Very briefly, what the Amendment provides is that the landlord may give a notice to quit, but that he shall not be given possession until the work has been completed. When the work is complete, of course, then the ordinary law obtains. If the landlord desires to get possession he should be free to do so, and the tenant has the normal defences open to him. But the landlord should not be given possession merely on the ground that a notice has been served and the work is required to be done. The Amendment provides, also, that where it is essential for the landlord to have possession in order to carry out the work, and the authority so certify, and so long as alternative accommodation is provided for the tenant, that will be a ground for getting possession.
During the discussions in another place a number of objections were raised by the Minister. One was the well-worn objection that in cases of this kind the compulsory purchase order proceedings are available. I want to say a little about that in connection with an Amendment which I am moving later, so I will not dwell on it now, except to say that in many of these cases a compulsory purchase order is not available. But I will leave that to one side, and not try to argue the merits of this simple Amendment that I am moving, deferring possession, as against the heavy hand of the compulsory purchase order.
There were two other grounds which the Minister mentioned, from one of which I thought he rather ran away because he referred on a number of occasions to the fact that the Milner Holland Report would be forthcoming at some time in the future, and gave the impression that that was a ground for not taking action at the present time. I must admit that he did not put that very strongly: it was not in the forefront of his argument. His real case was that it would be possible for a landlord to take action for possession, and that, if this
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Amendment were incorporated in the present Bill, he would do so all the more readily as soon as an inspector came along to view the premises, even though nothing might come out of the inspector's inspection; that landlords would anticipate the possibility of their being served with a notice, and would straight away take steps to get rid of a tenant. That argument, however, strikes me as being quite unrealistic.
The serving of a notice has to be followed by steps to get possession, and anyone with experience of these matters will know that it takes some months before a case is heard in the county court and before an order for possession is made. During that time, obviously, the inspector will have reported on the premises, and the local authority will have decided whether or not they will serve the notice. If they decide not to serve the notice, then the position remains as it is at the present time. If the local authority decide to serve the notice, then under my Amendment the tenant would be protected until the work had been completed. I therefore do not think that the objection is very serious or realistic. I thought that, apart from the compulsory purchase order suggestion, they were the only real answers to this Amendment. I hope, therefore, that the result of the consideration by the Minister of the points raised in Committee and on Report in another place will be favourable to this Amendment; and if I have said anything which may help to turn the scale, I shall be very glad. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 68, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Silkin.)
4.14 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, it is true that this Amendment was discussed in another place, but I think not by your Lordships during the Committee stage. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has raised an interesting point, and it is one that we have been considering. But the truth of the matter is that this point was not overlooked when we were drafting the Bill. We considered it very carefully, even before the Bill was printed in its final form. The noble Lord opposite has anticipated one or two arguments which I should have made, and which were made in another place by my right honourable

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friend. Apparently, the noble Lord does not think very much of the argument that if this sort of protection were given to tenants—the prevention of their eviction during the period of operation of a works notice—a landlord would tend to give notice previous to receiving the works notice, as soon as he got wind of anything like that in the air and of the inspector coming round.
LORD SILKIN: What I said was that the landlord possibly would, but that the notice would not be effective if the local authority acted speedily and made up their mind as a result of the inspector's visit.
LORD HASTINGS: Yes; I was just coming to that point. The noble Lord thought it would not be effective, and he was relying very greatly, of course, on the time factor. I do not think that I can argue about that in detail at the moment. That is not in fact the advice I have received about the matter, but I should not care to enter into an argument on what is, we might say, a quibble one way or the other. The real point here, I think, is that the protection which the noble Lord wishes to afford the tenant in these circumstances is very limited in any case. It is only for a short time, between the coming into force of a works notice and the completion of the works; and either before or after that time the landlord can get rid of that tenant. It was when we studied this matter and found that it was so extremely difficult to overcome all the difficulties that we decided, almost in the last resort, that the compulsory purchase order procedure for cases of this nature offers, in the long run, the best remedy. Again, I shall follow the example of the noble Lord opposite and I will not go into all the procedures, including the possibility of a compulsory purchase order. We shall be arguing them again in a few minutes, on another Amendment. But I have one or two more things to say about this which I hope will make the noble Lords opposite feel that this power, this protection, is not quite so necessary as they thought.
Those who support the Amendment base their case on the experience of Sheffield, which is rather alone in this field in the extent to which it has suffered from this sort of behaviour on the part of landlords. Now things have been made a good deal easier during the course
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of this Bill. Noble Lords will remember that under the 1961 Act local authorities have always had default powers. They could, in fact, undertake these works themselves if landlords refused to do it, were not doing it properly or were too slow. They could go in and get the job done and then charge the landlord with the expense. That, of course, was the great difficulty: they could not always get hold of the right man, and they could not always be sure of recovering their expenses; because there were holding companies, subsidiaries, leases, subleases and so on—all sorts of troubles and difficulties.
But now, under Clauses 62 and 63 of this Bill, a local authority can use their default powers, carry out the works and make a legal charge against all the interests in the premises. So they cannot possibly fail to recover their expenses. That, therefore, is a great inducement for them to use their default powers; and I am bound to say, in this connection, that Sheffield never did use its default powers. It was not willing to do so. Now, under the Bill, there will be no difficulty in any local authority's doing so, because they know that they will be able to get their money back.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves that point, as I understand it the local authority will now be able to recover only where the expenditure has been reasonably incurred. In the case of a house which had, say, ten tenants, five of whom had been dispossessed in anticipation of the work actually taking place, I think it would be held by the court that, in those circumstances, if the work had been done for the purpose of making the house fit for ten tenants, the expense was not reasonably incurred in view of the fact that there were only five tenants actually in the dwelling when the work was commenced. That is a difficulty, as I see it, of the procedure which the noble Lord has outlined to us.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a very ingenious point that the noble Lord has put, and possibly a legalistic one, but I should rather doubt whether the noble Lord would be right, because under the powers of Part II of the 1961 Act a local authority can lay down the standards to which a house should be

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improved in relation to the number of people it is capable of housing or ought to house. Those provisions are in Sections 12 to 17 of Part II. If the house is overcrowded, for example, the local authority, as the noble Lord knows, can say that it should be put into proper repair for a lesser number of tenants than the existing number. The existing ones are not turned out, but the landlord is not allowed to replace them as they leave of their own accord. I think, therefore, the reverse must be true also: that if it is necessary to exercise a works order or use the default power it must be based on the number of occupants of the house which that house is capable of accommodating, based on reasonable standards, set out in Section 15 of the Act which refers to all matters such as ventilation, heating and plumbing. I think the noble Lord, if I may say so, is wrong on that particular matter.
LORD SILKIN: I do not know whether it is convenient to thresh out this matter now, but I think that the noble Lord is, with respect, "taking a chance" on it because that is not the wording of Section 15. That section says:
"… having regard to the number of individuals or households, or both, accommodated for the time being on the premises, as not to be reasonably suitable for occupation by those individuals or households,"
Now, that is "for the time being". If it turns out that for the time being a number of families have been dispossessed by the landlord, it may well be that it would not be reasonable to have this work done. That is the difficulty that Sheffield has experienced. "At the time they give the notice" is one thing; but if the people have been dispossessed, then it is no longer reasonably necessary to carry out the work of which they gave notice. Therefore, they could not recover.
LORD HASTINGS: We are getting into a technical argument; but my advice is that if the work is done to comply with the notice, then reasonable expenditure is reasonably incurred. It cannot be circumvented by reducing the number of people, and the default power is to do the work required to be done by the notice under Section 18(1). So I think that the difference in the Bill as a result of Clauses 62 and 63 is as I said, and it will put the local
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authorities in this very much stronger position. An authority which has had difficulties as Sheffield has had need not have them in the future, because there would be no reason why they should not operate that sort of power. Again, in their particular case, they have not been willing to use the power of compulsory purchase, which is, and always has been, available for them to use.
It is true that in this discussion the Sheffield Corporation received some support from other local authorities, but I think it is fair to make it clear that they have not the backing of the local authority association mainly concerned, that is, the Association of Municipal Corporations, who, although naturally sympathetic to the argument, do not feel that it is sufficiently powerful to ask for an Amendment on this particular point; they are, in fact, willing to work the Bill as it stands. I say this, because the noble Lord brought up the particular case of Sheffield. But, for the various reasons given, I think the powers now in the Bill are sufficient for the local authorities not to be worried during the limited period when the works notice will be in operation. I hope, therefore, that noble Lords will not feel it is necessary to press this Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I must say that on this occasion I am not satisfied with the reply; but I would ask the noble Lord whether he would be willing to go back and have another word with his right honourable friend on the subject. I am not asking him to commit himself; but if he feels able to do something about the arguments which I have put forward—and I think they are sound and based on the actual experience of Sheffield—I will, in the meantime, be willing to withdraw this Amendment and hope that on Third Reading it will be possible to do something.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 70 [Restriction on recovery of possession after making of compulsory purchase order]:
4.29 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
"(1A) Subject to this section, in proceedings

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in the county court instituted during the relevant period to enforce against the former lessee the right to recover possession of the premises the court may if it thinks fit—

(a) suspend the execution of any order for possession of the premises made in the proceedings for such period, not exceeding the period of twelve months beginning with the making of the said compulsory purchase order, and subject to such conditions, if any, as the court thinks fit, and

(b) from time to time vary the period of suspension (but not so as to enlarge that period beyond the end of the said period of twelve months), or terminuate it, and vary the terms of the order in other respects.

If at any time the Minister notifies the local authority that he declines to confirm the said compulsory purchase order, or that order is quashed by a court, or, whether before or after that order has been submitted to the Minister for confirmation. the local authority decide not to proceed with it, it shall be the duty of the local authority to notify the person entitled to the benefit of the order for possession of the premises, and that person shall be entitled, on applying to the court, to obtain an order terminating the period of suspension, but subject to the exercise of such discretion in fixing the date on which possession is to be given as the court might exercise apart from this subsection if it were then making an order for possession for the first time."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is to make an improvement upon Clause 70. The general effect of that clause is that if the local authority make a compulsory purchase order in respect of a multi-occupied house, then for the "relevant period"—which has been laid down as twelve months—it is an offence to recover possession against the tenant who has been given notice to quit expiring after an order is made, otherwise than by order of a county court. Though the clause was welcomed in general it was pointed out in another place, and it has since been represented to us by the municipal corporations, that a more explicit power to stay possession should be given to the county court because its powers are limited under Common Law.
Although a landlord cannot give notice to quit during the relevant period except by applying to the court, the county court can give a stay of possession for only a month or so. It would actually work out a little longer, since there must be twenty-eight days' notice as well. Therefore, it was obviously necessary to give the court the power to extend the period up to the maximum length of the relevant period, which is twelve months. That
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is what this Amendment does. Nevertheless, since the relevant period may come to an end before the period of suspension allowed by the court, by the withdrawal, the non-confirmation or the quashing of a compulsory purchase order, then the landlord would be in a position to apply for the period of suspension also to be terminated. So the closing words of the Amendment provide that the court can still have recourse to its discretion if it thinks it desirable, under Common Law, to grant a more limited breathing space. Those are the two things that this Amendment does to strengthen Clause 70 and to meet the objectives of noble Lords in all quarters of the House. I hope it will be acceptable to noble Lords opposite. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 38, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, this Amendment, I think, satisfies the criticisms that were made earlier as to the possible ineffectiveness of the clause, and we are much obliged to the Government for introducing it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 15. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 39, at beginning insert ("'Subject to this section,'").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this Amendment is also consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, leave out line 44 and insert—
("(2A) Subsections (1A) and (2) of this section shall not apply—").—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 15, at end insert—
("(a) for any reference to the Minister there shall be substituted a reference to the Secretary of State;").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 17, after ("1946") insert ("and").—(The Marquess of Lothian).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 18, leave out ("and to the Minister").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 20, after ("1947") insert ("and").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 21, leave out ("and to the Secretary of State").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 21, at end insert—
("(b) in subsection (1A), for any reference to the county court there shall be substituted a reference to a court of competent jurisdiction;").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 22, after ("(2)") insert ("(2A)").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 23, leave out ("subsection") and insert ("subsections").—(The Marquess of Lothian)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 24, after ("(2)") insert ("Subject to this section,").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, leave out line 35 and insert—
("(3) Subsections (1A) and (2) of this section shall not apply").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 71:
Control orders
Making of control order
71.—(1) A local authority may make an order under this section (in this Part of this Act referred to as a "control order") as respects a house in their district which, or a part of which, is let in lodgings, or which is occupied by members of more than one family—
4.34 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, in subsection (1), at end of paragraph (b) to insert:
"or
(c) if it appears to the local authority that, by reason of the action of the landlord, the safety, health, welfare or security of tenure of the persons living in the house are in need of protection as a result of intimidation, noise, offensive smells, the behaviour of other residents or other social conditions."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is what I described on Committee stage as a rather important Amendment. It is somewhat different from the Amendment which I moved on the earlier occasion. I think it meets at least one of the criticisms which the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, made, possibly with some force. Clause 71 provides for an unprecedented procedure: for the making of a control order by a local authority where a house is in multi-family occupation and where it falls short of certain standards and certain other conditions obtain, as set out in paragraphs (a) and (b), on which I need not spend any time. The effect of this is that the local authority can enter into possession and take the place of the landlord, and can do so for a period up to five years.

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As I say, I do not propose to deal with the two grounds mentioned in the Bill, on which a control order can be made. The purpose of my Amendment is to introduce a third ground, which is that the landlord is guilty of conduct which amounts to intimidation of tenants, in consequence of which it becomes unbearable for a tenant to remain in possession. When we discussed this subject before, certain examples were given, such as setting a savage dog on a tenant, the creating of unbearable noise, making offensive smells, and all sorts of things like that, in such a way as to cause the tenant to give up possession. We know that that sort of thing has been taking place. There are many examples of it in a number of London boroughs —Paddington, for one. It has become known by the tern of "Rachmanism". And the purpose of this Amendment is to enable a control order to be made where these conditions exist in a house.
I would refer to some of the arguments that were put forward last time by the Government against the inclusion of this provision in the Bill. In the first place, they said that, as the Amendment was then drawn, it was out of keeping with the general purpose of the Bill and in particular of this clause, which relates to houses which are let in lodgings or occupied by more than one family. My previous Amendment, as drafted, was much wider, and no doubt the noble Earl was right in saying that it was out of keeping with the general structure of the Bill.
Then, our friend Sir Milner Holland was trotted out. We were expecting a report from him at some time which would give the ex tent of the difficulties that were encountered in this way and enable the Government more easily to deal with the problem. It was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, that as this power was only for five years, at the end of that time the landlord could repeat his conduct and get rid of the tenants whom he wished to dispossess. We have an Amendment down to increase the period to seven years. Perhaps that will make the noble Lord happier about this proposal. At any rate, it will give the tenant security for two years longer.
The two main objections to the
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Amendment—and I think that in a way they were contradictory—were, first, that local authorities were not suitable bodies for dealing with problems of this kind: they were qualified to look at the physical condition of premises and make decisions on that basis, but they were not suitable bodies for making decisions on the conduct of landlords, such as intimidation. At the same time, both the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, and the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said that in any case a compulsory purchase order was more suitable for dealing with a problem of this kind—omitting to state that, in order to make a compulsory purchase order, they would still have to form a judgment on exactly the same set of facts. The question would still be: was the conduct of the landlord such that a compulsory purchase order would be suitable in the circumstances?
I should like to say a word about compulsory purchase orders. For the purpose of my argument, I am going to assume that a compulsory purchase order would be available for this purpose, but I am not at all sure that it would be. A compulsory purchase order is a very drastic procedure. It involves expenditure on the part of a local authority, expenditure here which is not primarily in order to deal with unsatisfactory premises but because there is an unsatisfactory landlord. I should have thought that was not primarily the function of a compulsory purchase order. Moreover, it is recognised—at least, the Minister said so in another place—that it takes an average of eight months to get a decision as to whether or not the Minister will confirm a compulsory purchase order.
Although it is quite true that provisions have been incorporated in this Bill which protect the tenant from a landlord getting possession while waiting for the result of a compulsory purchase order, it does not protect the tenant against such conduct of the landlord, which we are discussing, as forces the tenant out. What is wanted here is not summonses which will bite in eight or ten months' time, but something which will operate at once. The control order is something that operates immediately. If a tenant is being harassed with savage dogs or offensive smells or noises and the rest of the paraphernalia, that tenant cannot afford to sit there and

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wait until the Minister confirms a compulsory purchase order. What is wanted is the local authority to use the control order procedure and step in and take the place of the landlord, and to take the place of the landlord for the next five or seven years.
It is for this reason, among others, that I feel the compulsory purchase order will not satisfactorily deal with the problem. I know it is drastic, but it does not necessarily penalise the landlord, because under the 1959 Act compensation has to be paid to the landlord for the value of the premises, presumably on the basis of the rents he is receiving or could receive. Therefore, it is not necessarily penalising him to acquire his premises compulsorily. But my point is that it does not protect the tenant. The landlord can carry on with this course of conduct and, if he so desires, get rid of the tenant while he is waiting for the result of the compulsory purchase order.
Throughout the earlier proceedings on the Bill the Government expressed themselves as being anxious to deal with the problem of Rachmanism. They have admitted that there is the problem, and. in fact, at one time the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, gave me the impression that the Bill as it stood, without amendment, was capable of dealing with that problem. I accept the noble Lord's explanation that that is not what he meant to say, although he certainly gave me that impression. But, even accepting the noble Lord's explanation, he recognised that this is an evil which has to be dealt with. Therefore, I would ask the Government why they are not prepared to deal with it in this Bill.
Now that I have, as I hope, put the Amendment in a form which is acceptable, or nearly acceptable—that is, it does not interfere with the general structure of the BillI— trust that it will be possible, if not to accept the exact words, to accept the general idea that Rachmanism has to be dealt with in this Bill, and broadly in the way that I have put forward in the Amendment. We have had a long argument about this before, and I do not want to enlarge on it. However, I feel that no other method of dealing with the matter is satisfactory, and I hope the Government will take the view that this can now be incorporated in the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 78, line 6, at end insert the said word and paragraph.—(Lord Silkin.)
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I think it may be for the convenience of the House if I speak at this early stage in our discussion on the Amendment, because, in the first place, the Amendment is, as the noble Lord said, drawn in somewhat different terms from a similar Amendment that we debated on two previous occasions, and it will enable me to express the Government's view; and, secondly, it will give me the opportunity of clearing up one or two possible misunderstandings which seem to have arisen in our previous discussions, on a matter which is very complicated. I think, even from the few words the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has spoken to-day, it is clear that some of these misunderstandings still exist. So during the course of what I have to say I hope we shall be able to examine just what the problem is; whether the problem, as put to your Lordships by the noble Lord, exists, and to what extent; and whether, if it exists, it is or is not dealt with in this part of the Bill.
It is true that the Amendment as drawn is in rather narrower terms on this occasion, and that it leaves in the Bill the words in lines 7 to 10 concerning the living conditions in the house, to which the Government attach such importance. It was proposed to take out these words in the previous Amendment. Nevertheless, if I may say so without disrespect to noble Lords opposite, the greater part of the proposed paragraph which they wish to insert adds little or nothing to what is already there. Indeed, by introducing the necessity to establish a link between bad conditions and positive action by the landlord, which is referred to in the Amendment, it tends, if anything, to have an unduly limiting effect. What the proposed words really amount to, when sifted, is an alternative ground for making a control order (whether or not subsection (1)(a) or (b) of this clause referring to the 1961 Act can be made to apply) if security of tenure is threatened by intimidation. That is what it comes down to; and I see the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, agrees. Although the words are different, the principle about which we are arguing is the same as before.
The living conditions referred to in the clause as drafted would cover, as I

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explained before, events observable by way of living conditions, such as deliberate rowdyism and flagrant prostitution. These words are therefore adequate to cover any case where it is also possible to take action under Part II of the 1961 Housing Act. This is laid down in subsection (l)(a) and (b) of the clause, and that has hitherto been the bone of contention.
A house may attract action under Sections 12, 14, 15 or 16 of the 1961 Act, but it may suffice if I refer now, by way of example, to the words to be found in Section 15. It refers to power to require execution of works in multi-occupied houses which are defective in respect of the following matters:
"Natural and artificial lighting, ventilation, water supply, personal washing facilities, drainage and sanitary conveniences, facilities for the storage and cooking of food and for the disposal of waste water, installations for space heating or for the use of space heating appliances",
and, in each and every case,
"having regard to the number of individuals or householders."
The very essence of Rachmanism is the exploitation of tenants by means of exorbitant rents in relation to the living conditions. The profit comes from the fact that the physical conditions are bad, and that the house is defective in the way or ways alluded to in Section 15 of the 1961 Act. The defects which I have enumerated do not have to be very serious for action to be taken by the local authority in order to enforce the necessary improvements—that is, under the 1961 Act as it stands; nor do they have to be very serious in order to put on a control order under this Bill if the living conditions should at the same time be bad enough to necessitate a control order for the protection of the safety, welfare or health of the persons living in the house. For the application of this clause, it is the living conditions upon which emphasis should be put.
If the multi-occupied house is not thoroughly well-equipped—in relation to the numbers of householders living there—with sanitary facilities, or with lighting, ventilation, heating and the other relevant amenities, or if the multi-occupied house is not thoroughly well-managed in terms of maintenance, lighting, cleanliness of common parts, disposal of refuse, fire escape arrangements,
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and so on, then the 1961 Act could be applied. In any such property any observable pressure upon the tenants—that is, observable by the eye, the ear, or the nose—would be the ground for a control order if in the view of the local authority it threatened their safety, health or welfare.
There has not been brought to our attention any single case where pressure has been alleged to have been brought to bear on tenants when the equipment and management of the property was of such a standard that the 1961 Act would not bite. My right honourable friend in another place specifically challenged the Opposition there to produce such cases, with no result at all. We can, I think, regard it as almost axiomatic that barbarities of the sort we have in mind are not practised in well-equipped, well-managed properties.
Assuming, therefore, that the condition requiring that the property should be subject to the 1961 Act treatment is a very low hurdle to jump, I now turn to the requirement that the pressure should be observable in the living conditions. Again, every example quoted—systematic rowdyism, offensive smells, flagrant prostitution, overt intimidation —is observable; and if the local authority think that the welfare, safety and health of the tenants are endangered, then the control order power operates. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in connection with compulsory purchase orders, envisaged a situation where a tenant had to wait for six months before the order was confirmed, and might have his life made intolerable. But not by savage dogs; that, surely to goodness! is observable. That comes under one of the observable living conditions which enables the local authority immediately to impose a control order. So that will immediately spring off the procedure for a control order.
It is only if there were surreptitious, furtive, unobservable intimidation or pressure that the control order power would not be available. I must repeat that we have no evidence of such a case. In such circumstances then, and then only, the compulsory purchase order procedure would be there for the local authority to use. It is therefore absolutely right to say—as I have said

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all along in spite of the misunderstandings that we have had—that Rachmanism is dealt with, and dealt with severely, in respect of multi-occupied houses, in Part IV of this Bill. I never said that it was not dealt with. All I have said is that it was not dealt with in the wider field to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, was referring in previous speeches. Rachmanism is dealt with in multi-occupied houses in this Bill.
Now a word on the compulsory purchase order. If an authority did wish to step in where the rights and wrongs were by no means clear, and where there was no observable evidence of bad living conditions for tenants, then the compulsory purchase order procedure would be available. The tenants' security would be safeguarded for twelve months by Clause 70 of the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, realised, and the Minister, through a public inquiry, could sort out whether it was right to hand the property over to the local authority because the landlord had, by his bad behaviour, threatened homelessness to his tenants.
I think it was at this point that we fell into a state of some confusion during the Committee stage, and I am only too willing to take the blame for that. There had been a good deal of questioning to and fro and, in particular, a number of noble Lords, notably my noble friend Lord Molson, wanted to know why one should use the more drastic powers of a compulsory purchase order to deal with cases of intimidation alone, rather than have it dealt with by means of a control order under this Bill. The relevance of this question loomed larger in the minds of noble Lords, in view of the fact that it was generally understood that in both cases there would be an appeal to the court.
My Lords, I am afraid that this is where I went wrong, even though I am sure that other noble Lords with great experience in the field of housing must, on reflection, have realised that I, and, indeed, all of us, went wrong at that point. The appeals under this Bill are to the county court, which is basically a court of civil jurisdiction and does not normally have the job of considering matters which arise under criminal
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law. Where a c.p.o. is concerned, the Minister decides the case after the public inquiry, and the only appeal from his decision is to the High Court on the ground that an order has been improperly made or may be ultra vires. The appeal does not, and may not, deal with the merits of the case.
It will be seen from what I have said that the essential difference in dealing with cases of alleged intimidation by means of the control order procedure, on the one hand, or by the compulsory purchase order, on the other, is as follows. The control order takes immediate effect and penalises the landlord before he has even been heard, thereafter remitting his case to a county court, whose discretion must necessarily be circumscribed by a justiciable formula, enunciated in the Bill; whereas the procedure followed once a compulsory purchase order has been made not only ensures that the case will be thoroughly investigated at a public inquiry before the landlord is penalised, but also enables the Minister to consider the whole matter from the standpoint of the general public welfare—and that is a very wide standpoint indeed.
Therefore, I hope your Lordships will appreciate that the procedure of a c.p.o. is preferable when dealing with a threat of homelessness not linked with observable bad living conditions, both on the grounds of equity and justice, and on the grounds of public policy. It should be remembered that the effect upon the occupants of a multi-occupied house is as immediate in the case of a c.p.o. as it is in that of a control order. As I say, under Clause 70 of the Bill it is made clear that a tenant cannot be evicted for twelve months, except by order of the county court, once a c.p.o. has been made by the local authority. The protection to the tenant is thus afforded immediately, and does not have to wait for the confirmation of the c.p.o. by the Minister.
I hope that I have now persuaded the noble Lord opposite that this question of savage dogs and any observable intimidation can be, and would be, dealt with under the control order procedure. To sum up, I hope that I have been able to convince your Lordships that this Amendment is both unnecessary and undesirable. I hope that the reasons I

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have given are now perfectly clear, and I hope, furthermore, that it will be realised that, should this Amendment be passed, the whole purpose of the clause will be altered. It would not be possible to allow the references to Part II of the 1961 Act to stand on their own in the clause as a sufficient reason for the exercising of a control order without reference to the living conditions as an additional reason.
As it stands, the Bill deals with squalid conditions and with Rachmanism in all the manifestations which have come to light in multi-occupied houses. If there were to be cases when, against all our experience, either the management and the equipment of the property was first-class, and/or the pressure on the tenant was unobservable, then the c.p.o. procedure, with full protection for the tenants during its course, is available. I hope now that the whole matter will be clearer to your Lordships, and that you will see fit to reject this Amendment, should the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, press it to a Division.
LORD SILKIN: I do propose to press this Amendment to a Division, because I am in no way satisfied with the reply of the noble Lord. I do not think that anything would be gained by prolonging the debate. He has not really replied to many of the points I made as regards the unsatisfactory nature of the compulsory purchase order for protecting the tenant who requires immediate protection against eviction. It is true that he does not require protection against a court order, but the very essence of this is that a tenant's life is being made hell and that he is being forced to go. He is not protected at all by a compulsory purchase order. However, I see no point in going on with the argument. We have discussed this on several occasions and I hope the House will now decide.
5.1 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, before the House does proceed to a Division I should like, even at this late stage, to say a few words to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, as mover of the Amendment, I have the right of reply, and I thought that I had exercised it. But if the noble and learned Lord
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is now going to continue the debate, I hope that I shall be still permitted to exercise my right of reply.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I myself shall have no objection to that course. The noble Lord rose very quickly; I was waiting to see if any other noble Lord wished to speak, because there are a few things I wish to say to your Lordships on this particular Amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, began his speech by saying that the local authorities were just as suitable bodies to determine whether a control order should be made as to determine whether a compulsory purchase order should be initiated. I am not seeking to challenge that proposition at all, but I should like your Lordships to bear in mind that the noble Lord's Amendment does not seek to alter the preliminary words and first two conditions of Clause 71—namely subsections (1)(a) and (b); it is merely to insert the new paragraph (c).
If Rachmanism (using the word in the same sense as the noble Lord has described it) does affect the living conditions in the house, the noble Lord cannot seriously suggest that the clause as it is now drafted does not cover that. I do not think there can be any doubt at all that it would enable a control order to be made. There is, indeed, a very considerable overlap between the noble Lord's Amendment and what is already in the Bill. The Amendment refers to the noise, smells, and the behaviour of other residents or other social conditions. If noise or smells or behaviour of other residents affects the living conditions of the people living in the house then Clause 71 bites.
But there are two significant differences. One is that the new proposal, this Amendment, only applies where it can be shown that the situation arises "by reason of the action of the landlord,". That is a limiting factor. I do not see how this new paragraph (c) could stand alongside paragraph (b). As the Bill now stands, all that is necessary is to show that the living conditions are affected in the way described by the Bill; it is not necessary to establish that that is due to the action of the landlord. In that context I must say that the Bill is better without the Amendment.

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When you examine it, the only direct difference between the Bill as it now stands, apart from that particular point, is the inclusion in the Amendment of the word "intimidation". What is meant by "intimidation" in this context? We were teased the other day, in our discussions on the Resale Prices Bill, about "imprecise" language. I must say that I think the word "intimidation" in this context requires some definition. It has been said that one form of the tort of intimidation is intentionally to compel a person by means of an illegal threat to do some act whereby loss accrues to him. Presumably the word in this Amendment is intended to cover the same thing. This brings me to an important point, on which my noble friend Lord Hastings touched, but I hope your Lordships will not mind if I say a little bit more about it.
Your Lordships will see that Clause 71 gives the local authority power to act when certain conditions appear to them to exist. I want to remind your Lordships what those conditions are. There is no trial, no inquiry, before the control order is made. I am sure your Lordships will agree that the making of a control order on a landlord, on the grounds contained in this Bill, does constitute a very grave reflection upon the landlord. Where the control order is made on certain conditions appearing to the local authority to exist, the landlord has to submit to the control order—he can only appeal against it, ex post facto to the county court. It would probably take four months before that case could be heard. I think this machinery is acceptable when the living conditions are observable. The public health inspector can visit the premises and see for himself what the living conditions are. If, for instance, it is said that there is so much noise that a man cannot get any sleep, the public health inspector can satisfy himself of that and report to his local authority. But if a control order is made on the ground of intimidation, an illegal threat to do some act, the public health inspector is not likely to be a witness to that.
My Lords, just suppose for one moment that some ill-disposed tenants—and not all tenants are well-disposed—
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make a series of allegations of intimidation; and suppose that the local authority believe them and make a control order in consequence. If this Amendment were accepted, then the landlord would be condemned unheard—and I am sure your Lordships would never accede to the proposition that a man should be condemned unheard and then just be allowed to appeal. Yet this is what this Amendment proposes: that the local authority shall be able to make a control order if it appears to them, without any inquiry and without the landlord having any opportunity of showing that the allegations made against him are false, that the landlord has been guilty of intimidation. I suggest that this really will not do; and on this ground alone I ask your Lordships to reject this Amendment.
Where the local authority think that there has been intimidation likely to affect health, safety or welfare or, indeed, the security of tenure, I do support what my noble friend has said: that the right course would be for the local authority to seek to exercise their powers of compulsory purchase. If the landlord wishes to challenge what is said against him, he can object to the order and there must be an inquiry before the order is confirmed. The landlord thus has an opportunity of showing, before the order is confirmed, that the allegations are false. It has been said that the sanction of a compulsory purchase order is heavier than that of a control order. I am not sure that that is the case, but if it is, I am not myself opposed to the sanction being heavier, bearing in mind that this procedure has the advantage of allowing the landlord to secure a public inquiry before he loses his property, whereas under Section 71 he has no right to an inquiry before being dispossessed.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said that a compulsory purchase order would mean compensation based upon the sweated rents charged. There was a suggestion that he might be entitled to that. I am advised that that is not the case. It has been held by the Lands Tribunal that they disregard any element of value that derives from a use that could be restrained by any court or is contrary to law or detrimental to the health of the occupants of the premises or to the public health.
I have intervened at this late stage merely to put these points to your Lord-

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ships. I make this point finally. I find it very difficult to believe that if a landlord is engaging in Rachmanism he is going to rely upon intimidation alone. If there is anything in the kind of intimidation that affects the living conditions, then I reiterate the tenant is fully protected by Section 71. The only thing that this Amendment really adds—while it is limited in the sense I indicated to being restricted to having to establish action by the landlord—is inclusion of the word "intimidation", and if there is a case of intimidation standing entirely by itself, things said or done or written by the landlord or his agent to the tenant, I believe, for the reasons I have given, a compulsory purchase order is much the better machinery for dealing with it.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I am sure we are very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for intervening. He has made, I think, two main points: one, that the Amendment is really unnecessary because it is possible to deal with a question, other than intimidation which is not observable, by the earlier provisions of this clause. I world only say that this is an additional ground. It does not prevent a local authority from making a control order under paragraph (a) or (b) if it is applicable, if the conditions of the dwellings permit it. But this is an additional ground which has been deliberately inserted as applying to actions
for which the landlord is responsible. In addition to the grounds to which the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, and the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, referred, giving a right to a local authority to make a control order, we want to give them this further ground so that they can deal with actions by the landlord designed to get the tenant out without the legal machinery. We know that this is happening, and I still fail to understand why the Government—whether they like the particular words or not—are not prepared to accept the further strengthening of the powers of the local authority in addition to what is already in the Bill for dealing with this particular evil.
In my view, these provisions in paragraphs (a) and (b) to Clause 71(1) are not sufficient to deal with this particular problem. I do not think I need enlarge on the matter. I hope that the House will be prepared to incorporate in the Bill express powers for dealing with this specific problem which everyone knows exists, whether accompanied by the problem of the condition of the premises or not. I hope, therefore, I shall be supported in this Amendment.
5.23 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 28) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 36; Not-Contents, 57.

CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Gardiner, L.

Samuel, V.

Alexander of Hillsborough, E.

Henderson, L.

Shackleton, L.

Amwell, L.

Hobson, L.

Shepherd, L.

Archibald, L.

Latham, L.

Silkin, L.

Attlee, E.

Lawson, L.

Summerskill, B.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Lindsay of Birker, L.

Taylor, L.

Champion, L. [Teller.]

Listowel, E.

Uvedale of North End, L.

Chorley, L.

Longford, E.

Walston, L.

Colwyn, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Williams, L.

Crook, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Faringdon, L.

Mottistone, L.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Gaitskell, B.

St. Davids, V.

Wise, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Denham, L.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Alport, L.

Derwent, L.

Hanworth, V.

Ampthill, L.

Devonshire, D.

Hastings, L.

Atholl, D.

Dilhorne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Hawke, L.

Auckland, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Horsburgh, B.

Blakenham, V.

Ferrers, E.

Iddesleigh, E.

Bridgeman, V.

Forster of Harraby, L.

Ilford, L.

Carrington, L.

Fortescue, E.

Jellicoe, E.

Chesham, L.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Conesford, L.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

Long, V.

Coutanche, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Lothian, M.

Crathorne, L.

Grenfell, L.

Mabane, L.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Monsell, V.

Spens, L.

Mancroft, L.

Newton, L.

Stonehaven, V.

Margesson, V.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Stang, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

St. Oswald, L.

Stuart of Findhorn, V.

Merrivale, L.

Sandford, L.

Thurlow, L.

Meston, L.

Sinha, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Milverton, L.

Soulbury, V.

Waleran, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 80 [Appeal against control order]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I apologise for having made the longest speech during the Report stage. I shall now make the shortest. This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 22, leave out ("is") and insert ("was").—(Lord Hastings.)
Clause 84 [Termination of control order]:
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, this is an Amendment which the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said that he would not mind seeing and did not feel strongly about. He did not mind if the period was seven instead of five years. Therefore, I thought I would put it down and give him an opportunity of saying that he agreed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 94, line 27, leave out ("five") and insert ("seven").—(Lord Silkin.)
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the noble Lord has moved his Amendment most winningly. If I remember correctly, he said at Committee stage that he did not wish to put too high the case for seven years as opposed to five years. I thought it right to return the compliment and say I did not feel passionately about five as opposed to seven, although I preferred the former. I think, from the point of view of strict historical accuracy, that is the position. But I did say that the Government preferred five years, and that is, in fact, still my position.
We have in fact looked at this again—that is not just a phrase—and we should still prefer five years for the control order, and that for the two reasons which I mentioned at Committee stage which I shall rehearse briefly now on Report.
The first is that we feel that five years is really a sufficient period for the local
488
authority to get the conditions which they are worried about put right. The first control orders will presumably be made this year, and therefore any local authority making them will have until 1969 to put the conditions right. Surely that is a sufficient period of time. As I mentioned on the Committee stage, it is as long a period as the First World War, and perhaps I might mention now, on the Report stage, that it is only one year less than the period of the Second World War. I would have thought it was sufficient time.
The second point which I made on Committee was that, if the land or property was really beyond redemption, then quite possibly a control order is not the right instrument in any case. It may well have been better for the local authority to go for a c.p.o. in the first instance. But if the local authority have not gone for a c.p.o. but have opted for a control order, then that does not preclude them during the period of the control order from going back to the c.p.o. procedure if they so desire. That is expressly provided for in Clause 72(5) of the Bill. We feel that five years is really a sufficient time. I do not wish to claim any particular merit for it. The noble Lord has not claimed any particular merit for seven, other than, presumably, that it is a luckier number than five. He has not argued the merits of it, and I feel that five is a sufficient period. I would suggest, again without expressing passionate feelings about it, that we should rest on five.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, it has to be remembered that, if the control order is made for the reasons set out in the earlier clause, there will be a lot to do to put things right and it may well take time. There may be difficulties of construction of one sort or another, or legal proceedings. Therefore, it is desirable that they should have adequate time. Moreover, the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, said earlier that what we were asking for in the previous Amendment was all in the Bill; that you

489
could deal with Rachmanism fully under the Bill as it was. Therefore, this period is a matter of some importance. I must say, incidentally, that the Lord Chancellor said it would be wrong to deal with Rachmanism in the way that we want under the Bill. However, he overthrew the argument of Lord Hastings. But this is tied up, at any rate, with the existing paragraphs (a) and (b) in the earlier clause which contemplates a pretty serious state of affairs.
Indeed, this problem of housing and bad conditions, and so on, aroused the protests and public manifestations of two right reverend Prelates in London, the Lord Bishops of London and of Southwark, who led a procession from St. Paul's to Southwark Cathedral. I sympathise with them in doing so, even though it was a little inconvenient to the London County Council. Therefore, it is to be much regretted that, when we are dealing with Rachmanism and some aspects of homelessness this afternoon, neither the Bishop of London nor the Bishop of Southwark, nor any other Bishop, is here either to speak, or to vote. I have mentioned this before. I really do think that, so long as they remain Members of your Lordships' House, they ought to be here on matters of this sort.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I would just say to the noble Earl that I did not put forward any argument for the Amendment because I was under the impression, no doubt wrongly, from what he had said previously, that it would be accepted. I thought that there was no point in wasting words if it was going to be accepted. One of the arguments put forward against the previous Amendment was that at the end of five years the same conditions will apply—that the landowner will once more indulge in intimidation, and so on. The answer to that is to extend the period. Once such a drastic step as a control order is made, it should be made for a sufficient period to enable the house to be put into proper order, not only from the structural point of view but from every other point of view, to get the tenants living happily together and to ensure that thereafter the place will be properly conducted. This is not one of those Amendments one would fight to the death about, but it is an important Amendment, and I think that once a control order is made it is right that it should be made for a longer period.
5.31 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 30) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 29; Not-Contents, 52.

CONTENTS

Alexander of Hillsborough, E.

Hobson, L.

Silkin, L.

Archibald, L.

Listowel, E.

Summerskill, B.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Longford, E.

Taylor, L.

Champion, L. [Teller.]

Milner of Leeds, L.

Walston, L.

Colwyn, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Williams, L.

Crook, L.

Mottistone, L.

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Faringdon, L.

St. Davids, V.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Samuel, V.

Wise, L.

Gardiner, L.

Shackleton, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Henderson, L.

Shepherd, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailwyn, L.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Merrivale, L.

Ampthill, L.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

Milverton, L.

Auckland, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Molson, L.

Blakenham, V.

Granfell, L.

Monsell, V.

Bridgeman, V.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Newton, L.

Chesham, L.

Hanworth, V.

Poole, L.

Conesford, L.

Hastings, L.

St. Aldwyn E. [Teller.]

Coutanche, L.

Hawke, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Crathorne, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Sandford, L.

Denham, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Sinha, L.

Derwent, L.

Ilford, L.

Soulbury, V.

Devonshire, D.

Jellicoe, E.

Stonehaven, V.

Dilhorne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Lansdowne, M.

Stuart of Findhorn, V.

Drumalbyn, L.

Long, V.

Thurlow, L.

Ferrers, E.

McCorquodale of Newton, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Forster of Harraby, L.

Margesson, V.

Waleran, L.

Lothian, M.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Wolverton, L.

Fortescue, E.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Clause 101 [Other minor amendments of Housing Acts]:
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Page 112, line 13, leave out ("a house") and insert ("any premises").—Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.40 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, after subsection (2), to insert:
"(3) In section 69(3) of the Act of 1957 (under which a local authority may issue a certificate that a house is fit for human habitation and will remain so fit for a specified period, not being less than five nor more than ten years) for the word 'ten' there shall be substituted the word fifteen'".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment requires lust a brief explanation. Section 69 of the Housing Act, 1957, enables the owner of a house who proposes to improve it to obtain a certificate from the local authority that the house is fit, and will with reasonable care and maintenance remain fit for a period of not less than five years nor more than ten years. During that period the local authority is debarred from taking action to secure the demolition of the house as unfit for human habitation, either by means of including it in a clearance area or by means of a demolition order under the Act of 1957. The situation is that the local authority must be satisfied before making a standard grant that the house will remain fit for not less than fifteen years, and it is the same for a discretionary grant; and the same period again is also the test in the case of compulsory improvements. Therefore, it seems to the Government that it would be right to amend Section 69 of the Act of 1957 to remove this discrepancy.
As this is the last Amendment, and in anticipation that it will not be very controversial, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have contributed so much both to the Committee stage and to the Report stage of this Bill. We have had quite a number of Amendments to-day which have been agreed between us, meeting points on one side or the other. I should like also to thank my noble friend beside me, not for actually abandoning the defence of the Navy, but for coming to the assistance of the defence of his old Department. I hope we shall feel that we have done good work on
492
this Bill and improved it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 112, line 28, at end insert the said subsection—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, since the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, in the latter part of his remarks in support of this Amendment, was entirely out of order, I shall be out of order in supporting the Amendment and saying that, while we recognise that this Bill is a much better Bill than it was before, we should have been completely satisfied if only the last Amendment on which we divided, and the one before, had been accepted by the Government. I still regret very much that they have not been accepted. There is still time; there is another stage of the Bill, and I do hope—not with very great confidence—that the Government will have another look at this matter to see whether it is possible to provide in this measure for the fears which so many of us have. This practice of Rachmanism is still continuing, a great many people are suffering as a result of it, and this Bill gives us an opportunity of dealing with this matter. If only that can be done, then my satisfaction with this Bill will be almost complete.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

FILMS BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
EMERGENCY LAWS (RE-ENACTMENTS AND REPEALS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
BETTING, GAMING AND LOTTERIES (AMUSEMENTS WITH PRIZES) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a and to be printed.
PROTECTION OF BIRDS ACT 1954 (AMENDMENT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
NEW TOWNS (No. 2) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DEVELOPMENT AND FINANCE) (SCOTLAND) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (PECUNIARY INTERESTS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a and to be printed.
HAIRDRESSERS (REGISTRATION) BILL
Brought from thee Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
YOUNG PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

ANIMALS (RESTRICTION OF IMPORTATION) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask whether all these nine new measures which have now been given a First Reading all emanate from the Government, or are they all Private Members' Bills?
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: They are Private Members' Bills, my Lords.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: It seems a pity that the Government have not been a bit more busy with their own legislation

BRITISH NATIONALITY (No. 2) BILL
5.47 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This is not a very long Bill. Its main object is primarily to fulfil some of the conditions which this country agreed to in the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, which was agreed to in New York at the United Nations on August 30, 1961; and, also,
494
at the same time, to remove a certain number of anomalies that exist with regard to British nationality. It is a Bill of six clauses, none of them of any great length, though possibly at first reading not quite so clearly understandable as one might hope some Bills to be. Therefore, I will very briefly, to the best of my ability, describe to your Lordships what the actual provisions of the clauses are.
Clause 1 sets out the additional grounds on which British citizenship can be claimed by registration. There are in fact three classes of people who can claim. The first and the most important class of person, perhaps, is the person whose mother was at the date of his birth a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, but who in fact was born in a foreign country, if such a person would otherwise be stateless. In other words, should some English girl or woman find herself in a foreign country giving birth to an illegitimate child, where there is no father acknowleged as in certain countries, such a child would be stateless. But by reason of his mother's nationality being. British, he is under this Bill entitled to claim British nationality.
The second class of person is a child who is actually born in the United Kingdom and Colonies, but who nevertheless would be stateless. That seems to be an unlikely thing to happen, though it can in fact happen from time to time if an illegitimate child is born in the United Kingdom or Colonies and does not acquire citizenship by birth, if his father, who is not himself a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, possesses diplomatic immunity, or if his father is an enemy alien and the birth occurs in a part of the United Kingdom and Colonies under enemy occupation. Some such children may be stateless at birth; and, if so, this Bill enables them to acquire citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies.
The third part of subsection (1) refers primarily to certain transitional classes defined in detail in the Schedule to the Bill. Broadly speaking, a person is qualified under this provision by reason of parentage if he was born before one of his parents automatically acquired citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies, or, by reason of residence and

495
parentage, if he is the child of a British subject without citizenship and has resided in this country. As I said, the particular objects set out in paragraphs (a) and (c) of this clause are necessary in order for us to conform with Article 4 of the United Nations Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness.
Subsection (2) of Clause 1 provides that subsection (1) shall apply to persons born before, as well as to those born on or after, the date on which the Bill comes into force. Subsection (3) provides that a minor aged 16 or over may apply on his own behalf, and that a parent or guardian may apply on behalf of a minor whatever his age may be. Subsection (4) applies Section 8 and, in certain cases, Section 9 of the British Nationality Act, 1948. The effect of applying Section 8 is that Governors of Colonies and Protectorates will automatically have authority to exercise the Secretary of State's functions in relation to persons living in their territories; and, in the Commonwealth, that the Secretary of State may make arrangements for British High Commissioners to exercise his functions.
There is further provision for the purposes of the transmission of citizenship. A male person in category (b) above will he in the same position as any other citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies who is actually born in the United Kingdom and Colonies. He can transmit his citizenship to his children automatically, wherever they are born. But as to the male persons referred to in categories (a) and (c), they, like other United Kingdom citizens born outside the United Kingdom and Colonies, will be regarded as citizens by descent. Unless, therefore, such a person is in Crown service, his children born in an independent Commonwealth country will not, if they acquire the citizenship of that country, acquire citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies, while his children born in a foreign country will do so only if their births are registered at a British consulate.
Clause 2 refers to the same class of persons as is referred to in Clause 1(1)(b)—that is, those who, though born in the United Kingdom and Colonies, are nevertheless stateless; in other words,
496
certain children of diplomats and enemy aliens. The subsection there provides that where such a person is born after the Bill comes into force of a mother who is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, that person should acquire citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies automatically. Subsection (2) refers to a foundling found in the United Kingdom and Colonies after the commencement of the Bill, who, until the contrary is shown, shall be deemed to have been born in this country. I cannot state from any personal experience that there are a large number of foundlings still deposited on the doorsteps of certain great houses in Grosvenor Square and elsewhere, but, in case that should happen, their future is now assured. Clause 3 deals with the late registration of birth for the avoidance of statelessness, and provides that the Secretary of State shall not withhold his approval to such late registration if the child is, and always has been, stateless. Subsection (2) makes a similar modification to Section 17 of the Act of 1948, which deals with the registration, after January 1, 1949, of births occurring before that date.
Clause 4 deals with the restriction on the deprivation of citizenship. Subsection (1) provides that the Secretary of State shall not deprive a naturalised person of his citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies on the grounds specified in a certain section of the earlier Act if such deprivation would render him stateless. In other words, it makes it impossible that anybody, by being deprived of United Kingdom citizenship, should then become stateless. Subsection (2) repeals two other provisions relating to deprivation. One of these provides for deprivation if a naturalised person has lived abroad continuously for seven years and has neither been in Crown Service nor has registered annually his intention to retain citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies; and the second provides for deprivation if a person has been deprived of the citizenship of another Commonwealth country. Both those two, it is proposed by Clause 4, should be repealed.
Clause 5, the last of the substantive clauses, deals with British protected persons, enabling certain classes of persons to be declared by Order in Council to be

497
British protected persons by reason of their connection with a former Protectorate, Protected State or United Kingdom Trust Territory. Its purpose is to enable the Order in Council which gives effect to the Statelessness Convention to cover the children of persons who have retained the status of British protected persons under any of the recent independence Acts.
My Lords, I cannot pretend that this Bill will affect the lives of a very large number of people; but, for all that, I commend it to your Lordships, not only because it brings us into line now with the United Nations Convention on Statelessness to which we have subscribed but which, as the law stands at the moment, we are in certain respects unable to implement, but also because, when such cases as I have described do take place—and from time to time they do, particularly with regard to the illegitimate children of British mothers, who would be otherwise stateless; it is not a completely unknown thing to happen—it will avoid a very large amount of personal suffering and unhappiness. For that reason, if for no other, I think this Bill is well worthy of your Lordships' thought, and is one which I hope will become the law of this country with the smallest possible delay or argument. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Walston.)
5.58 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to add a word in support of the argument which my noble friend has addressed to the House in introducing this Bill. I had the interesting—indeed, valuable—experience of working for a time in the Nationality Division of the Home Office during the war, and that brought home to me the fact that there are quite a number of anomalies in our law relating to British status and citizenship. I am therefore glad to see that, to some extent, at any rate, the Bill which is before us this afternoon removes some of these, particularly those which are concerned with the very anomalous and tragic position of statelessness.
During this particular period—and, indeed, during the years immediately prior to the war. when refugees from Hitler were coming to this country—time and
498
again the terrible tragedy of statelessness was brought before those of us who worked in trying to help these people. The tragedy of that situation led to this Convention, which it is the main object of this Bill to implement. It is a very tragic position to be stateless; and while one hopes and prays that the sort of situation through which we went in this period may never be repeated, certainly, if it were, this Bill would prove of the greatest value in preventing the kind of tragic desolation which came home to very many of us during that time. That is the main reason why I want to support this Bill.
There are, perhaps, one or two points in the Bill which at first sight might appear open to objection. It is a very valuable part of the law that a person who has, so to speak, abused, his citizenship should be deprived of it from time to time. But I am quite sure that if the consequence is to make him stateless, then the result is out of all proportion to his offence—if offence it be—not only from the point of view of the man himself but also from the point of view of the general administration of the law and of the authorities in the Home Office. it would be of great value to prevent that sort of situation arising. I am not quite sure whether Clause 4 (2) makes it as clear as it might that it will apply only in a situation which will result in statelessness. I suppose that one can say that is the implication, but it is not absolutely clear; and it might be just as well at the Committee stage to make it quite clear.
It is also not over-clear that there is a certain amount of overlapping between Clause 2 and the earlier part of Clause 1. Perhaps that point also could be looked at by the Government draftsmen. No doubt the Government, if they accept this Bill, will see to it that any necessary tidying-up of this kind is carried through, since it is important that the law in relation to citizenship should be very clear. During the experience to which I have referred many difficulties were caused as the result of lack of clarity in the law. I therefore hope that great care will be taken in this Bill by the draftsmen, who are so competent to deal with these problems, before it finally reaches the Statute Book.
6.3 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, may I say a word on behalf of the Government? It gives me a great pleasure to welcome the action of the noble Lord, Lord Walston, in sponsoring this Bill, which makes a small but significant contribution to the reduction of statelessness—an object which will I am sure command the sympathy of your Lordships' House.
For many years there has been much concern over the problems arising from statelessness. This concern is shared by Her Majesty's Government, and the United Kingdom took an active part in the two Conferences held under the auspices of the United Nations, in 1959 and 1961, on the reduction or elimination of future statelessness. As a result of these Conferences the United Nations Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness came into being in August, 1961, and was signed on behalf of the United Kingdom Government immediately it was open for signature. This Bill results directly from our signature of that Convention. Noble Lords will not expect me to comment in detail upon the ways in which the Bill seeks to change our nationality law; these have already been explained by the noble Lord. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, that the Government draftsmen are satisfied about the points he raised on Clause 4; but I will look at it again to make quite certain. I should, however, like to assure your Lordships that if the Bill is passed, the, Government will be prepared, as soon as the necessary consultations with the overseas territories for which we are responsible have been completed, to deposit with the Secretary-General of the United Nations Organisation the United Kingdom's instrument of ratification of the Convention. It may well be that the United Kingdom will be the first country to ratify the Convention, and I should
500
like to express my sincere hope that this will encourage other nations to accede to it.
In conclusion, may I repeat my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for taking upon himself the care of this Bill through your Lordships' House. The Bill has the Government's full support and I trust that your Lordships will feel able to give it a Second Reading.
6.5 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, for his remarks and, more particularly, for his support of the Bill on behalf of the Government, and for the help his Department has given in its preparation. I would also thank my noble friend Lord Chorley for his comments, and I should like to reiterate what he so well brought out: the sad plight of these people—few though they may be in number—who find themselves stateless. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that it will be a considerable triumph for this country to be the first to take positive action to endorse the fine words which are so often spoken by international bodies when so often the action needed to implement them is delayed. I hope, with him, that we shall be the first to do this, and set a good example which others may follow.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESinformed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the Order made on June 3 last, discharged, and Bill committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  NAMING OF ROUNDABOUTS
  NAMING OF ROUNDABOUTS