Sitting of 17 June 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    House of Lords (Legally-Aided Appeal Cases)
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the average time taken to bring a legally-aided case for appeal from the Scottish courts to the House of Lords; and what is the average time taken for a decision in such cases.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Michael Noble): On average, nine-and-a-half months and eight weeks, respectively, but actual times vary widely.
    Mr. Willis: Does not the right hon. Gentleman regard this as scandalous? Is he aware that the overall average length of time between cases leaving the Court of Session and being heard in the House of Lords is 10½ months and that recently it has been between three and four months after a case has been heard before a decision has been given? Will the Secretary of State take steps to try to speed up this process? This is far too long.
    Mr. Noble: With regard to the last part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, the longest period which occurred in a recent case was just over three months, but the average, as I have said, is eight weeks.
    Mr. Willis: That is too long.
    Mr. Noble: That may be the hon. Member's feeling, but he will, I think, agree that it is not for me to comment on the conduct of business in another place. The length of time taken in getting these cases to the House of
    1256
    Lords is not unreasonable in view of the great deal of work which has to be done.
    Mr. D. C. Anderson: Can my right hon. Friend say how many cases have been brought since the scheme began and what the total cost so far has been?
    Mr. Noble: Ten cases have been brought and the total cost is just over £1,200.
    Mr. Woodburn: Would not a great deal of time in the House of Lords be saved if Scots people would accept the decisions of their own courts and not bring cases to the House of Lords unless they are matters which concern the whole of Britain?
    Mr. Noble: I do not think that the House would like me to comment on that suggestion. Scotsmen should avail themselves of whatever rights they have if they so wish.

    Slum Clearance, Edinburgh
    Mr. Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in slum clearance in Edinburgh since 1959.
    Mr. Noble: About 3,600 unfit houses have been closed or demolished since the beginning of 1959 up to the end of March of this year.
    Mr. Hutchison: In welcoming this advance, may I ask my right hon. Friend what further progress might be expected? Can he tell the House that it is not lack of funds which is holding things up? Is it, perhaps, a shortage in the building force?
    Mr. Noble: The position, I understand, is that Edinburgh Corporation has a number of schemes on hand and is ready to go forward with them. This should certainly increase the rate of clearance. I am not aware of any shortage of funds, although I know, as do other hon. Members, that there are shortages of certain skills in the building trade.
    Mr. Willis: Is the Secretary of State aware that Edinburgh Corporation has the worst housing record of any of the large towns and that, under the Tory Government, a Tory town council has not been able to reach even its own inadequate targets?
    Mr. Noble: I am sure that we all hope that Edinburgh Town Council will catch up.

    Deer (Scotland) Act, 1959
    Mr. Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many prosecutions there have been for offences under the Deer (Scotland) Act, 1959.
    Mr. Noble: From the time the Act came into operation until the end of December last, proceedings have been taken against 76 persons.
    Mr. Hutchison: Does my right hon. Friend consider that the Act is working satisfactorily and that we now have the measure of these cruel cowardly games?
    Mr. Noble: It is fairly satisfactory that of the 76 persons against whom proceedings have been taken, 65 have been fined. The numbers have probably decreased since the passing of the Act. I do not think that it can be criticised on the ground that more cases have not been brought. It looks as though the Act has achieved its purpose.
    Mr. Manuel: How many of the prosecutions were against crofters who were trying to protect their holdings?
    Mr. Noble: I have no information on that point.
    Mr. Rankin: Can the Secretary of State give an idea of the nature of some of the offences for which prosecutions were instituted?
    Mr. Noble: If the hon. Member would like full details, I will try to get them for him, but I cannot give him the answer without notice.

    Herring Industry Board
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the results of his recent discussion with the Chairman of the Herring Industry Board.
    Mr. Noble: The discussion which I have had with the Chairman of the Board has satisfied me that the mistake which was made over the buying price at Stornoway last winter was an isolated error.
    1258
    The Board had, however, initiated some time ago studies of its administrative arrangements and the Chairman has undertaken to lay before me plans which the Board is formulating. He has also written to the fishermen's representatives re-emphasising that the Board is very willing to try to meet any suggestions they might make, and suggesting regular meetings to promote mutual understanding. I do not consider that any further measures are called for.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am not sure that fishermen will regard it necessarily as just an isolated error? Is he further aware that after this new revelation as to how the Herring Industry Board has conducted its affairs, there is a real and, I think, enduring crisis of confidence among the fishermen on the issue of how their money is used and whether it is used well or not? How, in consultation with the Chairman of the Board, does my right hon. Friend propose to meet this real feeling among the fishermen?
    Mr. Noble: The Chairman of the Board has been in office for two years. A new Board was then set up. I believe that his explanations to me of the mistake which occurred over the Stornoway price were very frank and full. The measures which he is taking to prevent such a thing happening again, and particularly his suggestion of closer co operation with the fishing industry itself, will, I hope, quickly re-create full confidence.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Apart from the question of closer co-operation with the fishermen, to what further measures does my right hon. Friend refer?
    Mr. Noble: As I told the House, the Chairman is initiating some new administrative arrangements. I have not yet seen them, but he is going to send me a copy of them.

    Building Standards Regulations
    Mr. Brewisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when there will be a uniform set of building regulations in force in Scotland to guide those concerned with the construction of new buildings.
    Mr. Noble: A comprehensive and uniform set of building standards regulations came into operation on Monday, 15th June, and the Building (Scotland) Act, 1959, as a whole also came into operation that day. I hope that this code will prove of great benefit to all concerned in the building industry and to all its clients.
    Mr. Brewis: Is it not the case that, with the promulgation of these regulations, Scotland is ahead of both England and Wales? Could my right hon. Friend say what provision there is for altering these regulations in respect of new and improved methods of building in future?
    Mr. Noble: It is true that Scotland is ahead of England and Wales at the moment. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works has just announced his intention of introducing legislation modernising building control in those countries. I think that both he and I are alive to the fact that, where possible, as suggested by the Ban-well and McEwan Younger Committees, these regulations should be dovetailed together. In answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I agree that at no given moment will any set of building regulations necessarily be the last word. We shall watch the position, and if there is need for changes we will make them.
    Mr. Ross: Surely these are the building regulations which came before the House on a Prayer a short time ago when the hon. Gentleman was not sufficiently interested to be here. Were not these the regulations in respect of which his Department earned a rebuke from the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments for irregularities?
    Mr. Noble: That may well be true. I cannot say whether my hon. Friend was here or not. I think that there are very few people in the House or in Scotland who are not pleased that we are going forward and are ahead of England and Wales in this respect.

    Housing Subsidies
    Mr. Brewisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the number of authorities in the current year receiving £12, £32 and higher basic subsidies, respectively, under the Housing
    1260
    (Scotland) Act, 1962; and how the average subsidy so received compares with the rate payable before that Act was passed.
    Mr. Noble: Claims by 113 local authorities for the basic subsidies under the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1962, have so far been settled for the financial year 1963–64. Fifty authorities have qualified for £12 per house in respect of a total of 1,222 houses, and 63 authorities for £32 or more in respect of a total of 6,742 houses. The average subsidy paid on these claims is £30 11s. per house, compared with the flat rate of £24 per house paid under the Housing and Town Development (Scotland) Act, 1957.
    Mr. Brewis: Is it not clear that these changes in the subsidy provisions are helping very considerably with the housing programme in Scotland?
    Mr. Noble: The number of tenders approved this year would suggest that my hon. Friend was right.
    Mr. Ross: If that is so, why was it that we built a greater number of local authority houses in the year before these things were available compared with the number built after?
    Mr. Noble: I am not sure to which year the hon. Gentleman refers, but certainly the figures for this year show a very encouraging rise.
    Mr. Gourlay: Can the Secretary of State say how a comparison of the two subsidy rates which he announced this afternoon is relevant when in a Written Answer yesterday to a Question which I put to him he stated that the comparisons which I suggested were not too dissimilar were irrelevant? What justification does he have for refusing hon. Members information which is available to him?
    Mr. Noble: I do my best to give hon. Members all the information available to me.

    Road System, Central Scotland
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsleyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when it is expected that the main new trunk and motorway system planned for central Scotland will be completed.
    Mr. Noble: Subject to the provision by Parliament of the necessary funds, I expect the trunk road and motorway proposals outlined in the Central Scotland White Paper to be substantially completed within 10 years.
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House what the plan amounts to in miles of road?
    Mr. Noble: Seventy-nine miles of motorway and 206 miles of trunk road. Of these, 14 miles of motorway and 116 miles of trunk road, including one or two pre-war sections, are completed or in hand.
    Mr. Steele: Is this an "Irish" 10 years, because nine years ago I received a letter from the Secretary of State for Scotland indicating that there would be a dual carriageway from Uddingston to the English Border in 10 years' time? The most difficult parts of this road have not yet been completed, and there is only one year to go.
    Mr. Noble: I think that the whole House is aware of the extreme difficulty of forecasting with accuracy what will happen in 10 years' time. The House will have noticed that I said,
    "Subject to the provision by Parliament of the necessary funds … "
    We do not know which party will be in power in the next Parliament, and we do not know whether the funds will be available.

    New Houses
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsleyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what the average annual figure for completions of new houses in Scotland was in the periods 1945–51 and 1951–63.
    Mr. Noble: The average annual numbers of houses completed by all agencies, including temporary houses, in the periods 1945–51 and 1952–63 were 20,857 and 31,502 respectively.
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: Can my right hon. Friend add to that satisfactory reply any forecast about the progress of slum clearance?
    Mr. Noble: I have told the House that our aim is to increase the number of Houses to 40,000 a year. If this is achieved, we should hope that 20,000 of these would be available directly for slum clearance purposes.
    Mr. Ross: Is it not disappointing that, taking the first period mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, the figures rose from 2,000 within the average for the first year to 28,000 after three years, whereas, in the second period he has taken, the total fell from 39,000 completed in 1953 to 28,000 last year? How does he explain that?
    Mr. Noble: In exactly the same way as I have explained it to the House on many occasions. As anyone who has even looked at the problem understands, we have moved from building on comparatively easy green sites to central redevelopment of towns and that is bound to be slower and more difficult.

    Winter Keep Scheme (Appeals)
    Commander Donaldsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many appeals in connection with the Winter Keep Scheme have been heard, and how many are still outstanding.
    Mr. Noble: The total number of appeals received up to 31st May is 2,286. The number which has been settled is 1,174 leaving 1,112 still outstanding.
    Commander Donaldson: Of the 1,174 which have been heard, how many have been successful and how many unsuccessful?
    Mr. Noble: The number of appeals granted is 517, and 104 have been refused. The remaining 553 appeals were withdrawn by the farmers after consultation with officers of my Department.
    Miss Herbison: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that many farmers in the upland areas of Lanarkshire are suffering greatly because they cannot benefit from the Winter Keep Scheme, although they benefited considerably from the previous system? What representations has he had from those farmers, who have to work very hard indeed for a very small return?
    Mr. Noble: Is the hon. Lady referring specifically to those who produce milk?
    Miss Herbison
    Mr. Noble: If that is the case, then, in this category, 262 appeals have been received. Of these, 66 were subsequently withdrawn after discussion with my

    1263
    Department, and in 60 cases my Department now considers, after detailed assessment, that the occupier is not dairying to a material extent and the appeal has been granted. Certainly some people have had their winter keep reduced or have fallen out of the Scheme, but on the other hand many hundreds have come into it.
    Commander Donaldsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland by what date all the appeals in connection with the Winter Keep Scheme are likely to be heard.
    Mr. Noble: I hope that the appeals at present outstanding will all be dealt with by the autumn but there may be some further appeals still to come in.
    Commander Donaldson: Is the Secretary of State satisfied with the rate of progress, especially since many appeals are still to be heard and perhaps some will not be heard until late in the autumn, and will he say whether those whose appeals are heard late in the year suffer financially as a result?
    Mr. Noble: The answer to the last part of the supplementary question is "No". I think that progress has been quite satisfactory and I would pay tribute to the appeal panel, whose members have given a great deal of work and time without payment in order to achieve that progress. One must bear in mind that during the winter period it is much more difficult to assess this kind of problem. On the whole, progress has been good.

    Tourists
    Mr. N. McLeanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the estimated number of tourist visitors to Scotland in 1963.
    Mr. Noble: The Scottish Tourist Board's latest report estimates the number of visitors in 1963 as 5·1 millions. These figures are based on returns from Scottish hotels and guest houses. They include visitors from England and Wales, from other parts of the United Kingdom and from overseas.
    Mr. McLean: Do not these figures show that the tourist industry will and must play an increasingly important rôle in the Scottish economy? What estimate
    1264
    has my right hon. Friend of the number of visitors to Scotland over the next few years?
    Mr. Noble: I see no reason why the numbers should not continue to go up. It is difficult to split up the available figures, but I see that the British Travel and Holidays Association has estimated that the number of overseas visitors to Scotland last year was 710,000. This was a considerable increase over any of the previous three years.
    Mr. Bence: Does that figure include the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean)?
    Commander Donaldson: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that one factor this year causing concern to the tourist industry and to the Tourist Board is the number of cancellations, stretching as far ahead as to the end of August, made of hotel bookings as far south as the Border following the Aberdeen typhoid outbreak? Will my right hon. Friend soon make an authoritative statement about the outbreak and the clearance of the trouble, as this affects tourists from the south of Britain considering visiting Scotland during the season?
    Mr. Noble: All I can say at the moment is that among the 5 million people I mentioned one would expect a certain small number of cancellations. That is only natural. The epidemic seems to be dying down now and I have every hope that the available tourist accommodation in Scotland will be full again very quickly.

    Pulp and Paper Mill, Fort William
    Mr. N. McLeanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total cost of the pulp and paper mill project at Fort William; and what amount is now being advanced by the Government through local authority investment on houses, schools and roads.
    Mr. Noble: I am informed that the estimated total cost of the project is of the order of £20 million, including working capital. Identifiable Government expenditure on roads, housing and schools is estimated at about £3 million.
    Mr. McLean: In view of the importance of this project to the whole of north

    1265
    and north-west Scotland, will my right hon. Friend make sure that the necessary funds are available from the Government for the development of ancillary services, especially for roads and access to the pulp mill and roads to get the timber out of the forests, since these at present are not adequate for the scale on which this factory will function?
    Mr. Noble: Officers from my Department have been keeping in very close touch both with the authorities of the pulp mill and with the local authorities in order, as best they can, to make certain that these and other ancillary services are adequate by the time the mill opens.
    Mr. Ross: Would it not be fair to the local authorities which have to provide these services to allow them as cheap a rate of interest as he is making available to the authority building the pulp mill?
    Mr. Noble: The local authority in whose area the mill is being built will have very considerably better assets as a result of this project.

    Beef Calves (Certification)
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many beef calves were certified in Scotland during 1953 and in 1963, respectively.
    Mr. Noble: Two hundred and fifty thousand four hundred and sixty-six calves were certified for calf subsidy in 1953 and 429,402 in 1963.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Does my right hon. Friend consider that this increase will be sufficient to meet the demand for good quality calves in Scotland, particularly in view of the present rather uncertain situation of beef supplies overall?
    Mr. Noble: It is very difficult to forecast this with certainty, but I do not think one could regard an increase of 70 per cent. in 10 years as unsatisfactory, because the raising of beef calves is a comparatively slow process.
    Mr. Lawson: How much is paid per beef calf?
    Mr. Noble: If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on that I will answer it.

    Tay Road Bridge
    Sir J. Gilmourasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the programme for the building of the Tay Road Bridge is up to schedule; and by what date the bridge will be open to traffic.
    Mr. Noble: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given to the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig) on 15th June.
    Sir J. Gilmour: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this progress reflects great credit on the Scottish contracting firm concerned? I understand, however, that it is running into more difficult conditions as it approaches the south side of the river. Will this have any effect on the cost of the bridge?
    Mr. Noble: I do not think at the moment that there is any likelihood of the cost which was forecast being exceeded. At the moment, we are running well within the estimated figure. It is a little difficult to forecast questions of delay in the remainder of the building of the bridge because that depends so largely on things like the weather, over which the contractor has no control. But he is well ahead of his programme at the moment.
    Mr. Doig: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider engaging this contractor to see that roads are also built as speedily as the bridge so that they will be there when the bridge is ready?
    Mr. Noble: I am certain that this contractor's record has been noticed by many people, not only in the Scottish Office but also outside. If roads are wanted he will have the same opportunity as anybody else of obtaining the contract.

    Secretary of State (Moscow Visit)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the object and achievements of his recent official visit to Moscow.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his recent official visit to Moscow.
    Mr. Noble: Yes, Sir. I visited Moscow from 21st to 25th May to attend the British Agricultural Exhibition. The exhibition was markedly successful in attracting visits from high ranking Soviet Ministers and from agricultural specialists from many parts of the Soviet Union and beyond.
    Both at the exhibition and elsewhere I met and had talks on trade, agricultural and veterinary matters with a number of Ministers and senior officials. They emphasised how grateful they were to the United Kingdom for arranging the exhibition, which they regarded as only the beginning of co-operation in the sphere of agriculture, and they made it clear that they were impressed by the high quality of the exhibits. From the discussions I had, I am confident that there is a good prospect of increased trade with the Soviet Union in which Scotland is likely to share fully.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any concrete results have yet been obtained as a direct result of his visit? 'Can he say whether the Russians have a palate for 12-year old corned beef?
    Mr. Noble: I did not discuss the second question with any of the Ministers whom I met in Russia. I am not certain what concrete results could have been achieved as a result of my visit. The exhibition as a whole has had very useful results and I hope that my visit may carry these forward into the future.
    Mr. Hughes: Is it true that the right hon. Gentleman caused a tremendous sensation in Moscow and completely stole the publicity from Marlene Dietrich and Major Yuri Alexeyevitch Gagarin by appearing in a kilt? Does he intend to lend this kilt to the Foreign Secretary? Can he tell us whether he was really impressed by Communism in Russia and found that it was not such a terrible, awful nightmare after all?
    Mr. Noble: I am not certain that the Foreign Secretary would wish to have my kilt, or that it would fit him, but I am sure that he will note the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. There were many things in the course of my visit to the exhibition in which I found a great deal to interest me in Communist agriculture.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: As one who visited the exhibition, may I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I was enormously impressed by the way in which it was put on and by the keenness and ability of the people who were running it, and, as far as I could judge, the very great interest of leading Soviet people and ordinary Soviet citizens? It seemed to be admirable.
    Mr. Noble: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for those words. As he probably knows, I was interested in the very start of the exhibition some years ago. I should like to join with him in paying tribute to the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Gibson-Watt) and others who played an excellent part in running the exhibition.

    Orkney (Hydrofoil Service)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the hydroplane suggested for the North Isles service in Orkney.
    Mr. Noble: The hydrofoil built by Aquavion in Holland has qualified for a Class III passenger certificate from the Ministry of Transport and is due to start a two-month period of temporary passenger service in the North Isles of Orkney as an experiment. Unfortunately an engine broke down shortly after the craft arrived in Orkney, and repair may take a little time.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are naturally greatly interested in the progress of this vessel, whose development is rather overdue, and that we are glad to hear that this further repair may be the last? Can he say whether there is any evidence of its performance in rough water?
    Mr. Noble: We have no direct evidence of its performance in very rough seas and I think that for this reason the certificate will lay down what are regarded as safe operating conditions for it. The whole of the rest of Scotland will be interested in this experiment to see whether there are further ways in which craft of this sort can be used.

    Shetland Herring
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what outlets he anticipates for Shetland herring this

    1269
    season; and what steps are being taken to expand the continental market.
    Mr. Noble: I understand that the normal outlets are available for freshing, quick-freezing, curing and reduction to oil and meal.
    The Herring Industry Board informs me that export markets are available in Russia and East Germany for hard-cured herring and in West Germany for matjecured herring and that the Board is constantly seeking to assist further export trade. If it has any spare-capacity at the freezing works at Lerwick—after meeting the needs of commercial firms—the Board will stockpile suitable Shetland herring in anticipation of export orders.
    Mr. Grimond: Was the right hon. Gentleman able to discuss the subject of Russian imports of herring when he was in Russia? Can he give any idea of the quantities which may be taken by the Continental markets which he has mentioned?
    Mr. Noble: I regret that I did not have an opportunity to discuss herring with the Soviet Minister for Trade and I do not have an estimate from the Herring Industry Board of what may be taken, but if the right hon. Gentleman would like the figures, I will ask the Board to provide him with them.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is my right hon. Friend aware that while expansion of the Continental markets for herring is necessary, those markets are limited and there is a need for an expansion of the markets for herring all over the world, especially in Australasia? Will he take steps to see that the Herring Industry Board undertakes a campaign in those countries to assist the home industry to sell its products abroad?
    Mr. Noble: I entirely agree about the importance of getting these markets. I eat herring myself whenever I get the opportunity—and I expect that my hon. Friend does. I am sure that the Herring Industry Board will take note of what he has said about further publicity.

    Factory Farms
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many factory farms there are in Scotland; and how often each is visited, on average per year,
    1270
    to ensure that there is no cruelty in the methods employed to prepare the animals for the market.
    Mr. Noble: As was indicated in reply to a Question by the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) on 29th April, while there has been some development of intensive broiler and egg production, there is nothing in Scotland which can be described as a factory farm, although there are one or two projects now being developed which might be described as such.
    Mr. Rankin: Will the right hon. Gentleman take a close interest in this sort of development to see that the conditions which prevail in Scotland are an improvement on those now prevailing in England? Will these projects be rated as industrial projects? Are they qualified for farm subsidies? Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the cruelty in the rearing of these animals? Is he aware that during their brief lives veal calves under this system are kept in almost continuous darkness, seeing daylight for only two brief half-hours each day when they are fed? Will he see that these conditions are not recreated in Scotland?
    Mr. Noble: As the hon. Gentleman knows, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and I are setting up a technical committee to study the problems of factory farms. I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman's question about rates and subsidies, should these farms be created in Scotland, because it is a hypothetical question.
    Mr. Rankin: The right hon. Gentleman says that the committee is just being set up. Is he aware that it is nearly two months since the Minister of Agriculture told me that, and that, evidently, nothing has been done so far? When is the committee to be created?
    Mr. Noble: As soon as possible, my right hon. Friend or I will announce the membership to the House.

    New Towns (Houses)
    Sir J. Gilmourasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses were built n the Scottish new towns in the 12 months ended 30th April, 1964;

    1271
    how many houses were under construction at that date; and how these figures compare with those for 12 months previously.
    Mr. Noble: In the year ended 30th April, 1964, 2,202 houses were built in the Scottish new towns compared with 1,449 in the previous year. Four thousand five hundred and forty-three houses were then under construction compared with 3,261 a year earlier.
    Sir J. Gilmour: How does this good progress compare with that being made in England?
    Mr. Willis: Very poor.
    Mr. Noble: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis). In the last financial year, both Cumbernauld and East Kilbride completed more new houses than any other new town in Britain did.
    Mr. W. Hamilton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Glenrothes, which is in a development district, completed fewer houses in 1964 than in 1963? Can he explain that?
    Mr. Noble: Without notice, I could not explain it.

    Gaming Clubs
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from Edinburgh Corporation concerning gambling clubs and the giving to local authorities of powers of licensing and inspection; and what action he proposes to take to limit their unrestricted growth and to ensure that adequate safeguards against fire and other dangers are enforced.
    Mr. Noble: The Edinburgh magistrates have recently suggested to me that local authorities should have some control over gaming clubs and other clubs providing entertainment in order to prevent the use of premises which are insanitary or unsafe in case of fire.
    The Government intend to introduce comprehensive fire prevention legislation, which will cover club premises. Sufficient powers already exist to deal with insanitary premises.
    As regards control of gaming, I am not convinced that the time is ripe to
    1272
    amend the recent Betting and Gaming Acts.
    Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while we are glad to know that he is going to do something about these dangers arising from fire, all the other matters concerning these clubs are of great moment to most of the local authorities in Scotland, and that there is widespread anxiety among ordinary people about the manner in which these clubs are springing up here, there and everywhere? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the time has come when he ought either to license them or to do something about them? Is it not rather absurd that a betting shop has to have a licence, but that one can open a gambling club without any controls at all?
    Mr. Noble: As I think I have said to the House before, it may well be that some legislation or some new control may be necessary. I do not think that the evidence is sufficiently clear on this, but if new legislation was required a good deal of consultation would have to take place with the local authorities and others concerned.
    Commander Donaldson: But is not my right hon. Friend aware that there has been concern about this problem not only in Edinburgh but in other parts of Scotland for a considerable time? The South-East Regional Fire Board, of which I have some knowledge, is very concerned about this. What steps, if any, can my right hon. Friend take in the meantime to see that people who frequent these clubs are protected against the fire risks which are so worrying to the fire authorities?
    Mr. Noble: Apart from the legislation which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has announced to the House, I understand that Edinburgh Corporation itself is at the moment preparing a provisional order which will enable it to require adequate fire precautions to be taken.
    Mr. Ross: Will the right hon. Gentleman give more thought to this matter and reconsider his whole attitude? Is he aware that, quite apart from the fire risks involved, many people in Scotland are concerned about this whole question of the unrestricted growth of these gaming houses? Will he, for instance, look

    1273
    at the debate of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in this respect? This is not purely an Edinburgh matter, but something which is affecting the life and attitude of the whole of Scotland.
    Mr. Noble: I am well aware of the feelings often expressed—well and clearly—by sections in Scotland about gambling.

    Gairloch-Braemore Road
    Sir John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress with the reconstruction of the road from Gairloch to Braemore in Wester Ross.
    Mr. Noble: A series of schemes is being carried out under the Crofter Counties Programme to reconstruct this road. Twenty-six out of the 44 miles have been completed; work is in progress on five miles and will be authorised this year on a further five. Two more schemes will be required to reconstruct the remaining eight miles, and these will be authorised within three or four years, as the work now in hand is completed.
    Sir John MacLeod: As the tourist traffic is continually increasing, and as there is no railway in this region, have those factors been taken into account in the standards laid down for the reconstruction of this road?
    Mr. Noble: Yes, Sir. All the road which has been reconstructed since the war, or which has still to be rebuilt—about 32 miles from Aultbea to Braemore—is being provided with an 18-ft. carriageway.

    Ullapool-Kylesku Ferry Road
    Sir John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects the series of schemes for the reconstruction of the road from Ullapool to Kylesku Ferry to be completed.
    Mr. Noble: The reconstruction of the 33 miles from Ullapool to Kylesku Ferry is being carried out by Ross and Cromarty and Sutherland County Councils with 100 per cent. grant under the Crofter Counties Programme. The work will be complete in mid-1965.
    Sir John MacLeod: Can my right hon. Friend say how much this will cost, and by whom the cost will be met?
    Mr. Noble: The likely cost is about £1·6 million. As I have said, it is met under the Crofter Counties Programme, so no part of the cost will fall on the local authorities concerned.

    Typhoid Outbreak, Aberdeen
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the concern caused by the growth of the typhoid epidemic in Aberdeen, he will set up an independent committee of inquiry to investigate both the causes of the epidemic and the manner in which it has been handled.
    Mr. Noble: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Dunfermline, Burghs (Dr. A. Thompson) on 8th June.
    Mr. Hamilton: I am aware of that reply, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it does not satisfactorily answer the latter part of my Question about an inquiry into how the outbreak was handled, particularly at the central departmental level? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a good deal of anxiety about the administrative procedures which are set in motion when an outbreak of this kind occurs? Will the Secretary of State consider extending the terms of reference of the Committee to look at the administrative problem, so as to allay any anxiety which may exist?
    Mr. Noble: I do not think that I should like to increase and widen the terms of reference of this Committee, because I think that it is of the greatest importance that we should get quick answers to the main problem at which we have asked the Committee to look.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, without waiting for any inquiry of any kind, the work and skill of Dr. MacQueen and his staff have diminished this epidemic and enabled Aberdeen quickly to recover its ancient reputation as a clean and healthy seaside resort?
    Mr. Noble: Yes, Sir. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that on several occasions in the House I have praised the efficiency of Dr. MacQueen, his staff,

    1275
    and the hospital staff, and I think that the House can now see the effects of this in what we hope is the almost completely successful containment of the disease to Aberdeen, and the very rapid rundown in new cases.
    Mr. Brewis: Is it not the case that the central administration has worked very well in tracing contacts in other cities, and that those cases of typhoid which have broken out in other cities have all been known of and suspected before the actual case was confirmed?
    Mr. Noble: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding the House of that fact. Medical officers of health in the rest of Scotland have been very quick in getting on to likely suspected cases.
    Mr. Ross: We can congratulate the medical officers of health on being very much quicker off the mark than the Government were with regard to the withdrawal of the corned beef. It was nine days before we got a statement on the matter from the right hon. Gentleman. Can he assure us that the terms of reference are sufficiently wide to enable us to get a proper investigation and to draw the right lessons in respect of the import, distribution, control, and early withdrawal of suspected corned beef?
    Mr. Noble: I think that it is likely that the inquiry will give us this information, but if, as a result of the inquiry, the Government and the House consider that further points need looking into, it will of course be possible to consider those later.

    Unfit Houses (Replacement)
    Mr. Lilleyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many unfit and other houses have been replaced since 1955 in Scotland in general and in the City of Glasgow in particular.
    Mr. Noble: Known replacements to the end of 1963 were over 118,000 in Scotland, including about 24,000 in Glasgow. I have no information about wholly private replacements.
    Mr. Lilley: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that information, which I think is very helpful indeed, may I ask whether he will bear in mind that the people of Glasgow are becoming a little tired of so much being pulled down and
    1276
    not enough going up? Not enough houses are being built in Glasgow to meet the demands of redevelopment. Will my right hon. Friend bear that in mind when future redevelopment schemes are being formulated?
    Mr. Noble: As I said to the House in answer to an earlier Question, the problem nowadays is that many of our new houses are being built in the centre of cities in redevelopment areas, and it is necessary to pull down before one can put up.
    Mr. Millan: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it is that since the Government's slum clearance drive started in 1958 the number of slum houses dealt with has gone down steadily from 11,000 in that year to only 8,600 in 1963?
    Mr. Noble: And they are now going up again.

    A.8 (Motorway Section)
    Mr. Lilleyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for extending the motorway section of A.8 when the Harthill bypass has been completed.
    Mr. Noble: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given on 15th June to the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison).
    Mr. Lilley: Can my right hon. Friend tell me when the Harthill bypass is likely to be completed?
    Mr. Noble: The completion date is spring, 1966, but if the contractor is able to keep to his accelerated programme the main part of the bypass should be opened to traffic by the spring of 1965, with a temporary connection back to the existing trunk road.
    Miss Herbison: I welcome the belated pre-election interest of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Mr. Lilley) in this road, but I deprecate the lack of any co-operation from hon. Members opposite in the past when hon. Members, including myself, through whose constituency this road runs, were fighting for it. Since the double carriageway from Baillieston to Newhouse was completed six months ahead of schedule, and since the right hon. Gentleman recently informed me that the Harthill bypass was months ahead of schedule, may we take

    1277
    it that instead of waiting for five years for the completion of this road from Edinburgh to Glasgow the completion date will be at least one year before that?
    Mr. Noble: I hope that the hon. Lady will prove to be right. I understand her constituency feelings about the road, but I am sure that she will realise that many of us who do not live in her constituency will also be using the road.

    Hunterston (Second Reactor)
    Sir F. Macleanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the second reactor at Hunterston will be commissioned; and what the output will be.
    Mr. Noble: The South of Scotland Electricity Board expects that the second reactor at Hunterston will be commissioned some time next month, and that it will have an initial output of 150 megawatts.
    Sir F. Maclean: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this will give great satisfaction locally?
    Mr. Manuel: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that owing to the main contract work now being practically run down there has been an upsurge of unemployment in the area, stretching from Irvine to Largs? Can he indicate how many permanent jobs will arise when the electricity board brings the generator into operation next month?
    Mr. Noble: I cannot give the hon. Member those figures without notice, but one of the problems of finishing any great construction work is that jobs disappear.

    Local Government Reorganisation
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the report of the working party of officials set up to consider the question of local government reorganisation has yet been considered by the steering committee of elected members; and if he will now make a statement on the subject.
    Mr. Noble: The working party's first report was published last week. The introduction records the steering committee's agreement that it should be accepted as a basis for further consideration, and that the working party should proceed to
    1278
    examine possible boundaries. This is now being done.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Secretary of State agree that there has been undue delay in this matter? What recommendations are being made by the steering committee, and what steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to implement its recommendations? Can he expedite the matter?
    Mr. Noble: The delay was not unexpected. I did not hope at any stage that all these very difficult and concentrated problems would be settled for a considerable time—and they will not be, yet. Copies of the report of the steering committee are in the Vote Office, and I am sure that the hon. and learned Member will be interested to read it.

    Day-Release Courses, Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that up to the end of 1963 the number of firms in Aberdeen granting day release to students for study in Aberdeen Commercial College in commercial and distributive subjects was less than in building, engineering, printing and similar subjects and was also less than in comparable English cities; and what steps he has taken to rectify this disparity since his letter of 10th December, 1963, to the honourable and learned Member for Aberdeen, North, on this subject.
    Mr. Noble: Education authorities were asked in a recent circular to take steps to achieve increased support among local employers for all day-release courses, and I am confident that there will be a significant improvement as a result of the measures being taken under the Industrial Training Act. In Aberdeen, work started in January on a new commercial college which will provide greatly improved facilities.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister recall the correspondence that I had with him some time ago about this matter of training? Does he agree that the extension of day release is very important for trade, industry and employment in Aberdeen? Will he attend to that aspect of the matter and see that something is done quickly?
    Mr. Noble: I remember the correspondence that I had with the hon. and

    1279
    learned Gentleman. I entirely agree with him, and I should like to see an extension. The local education authority is doing its best to bring about what he and I both want.

    Teaching Profession (Wheatley Report)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will now give legislative effect to the Wheatley Report on matters relating to the teaching profession.
    Mr. Noble: I cannot add to the reply given to the hon. Member on 22nd April.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply is a scandal of the first order, and that this Report has been in his hand for over a year? Is not this just another example of the utter incompetence of the present Government in dealing with educational matters? Now that the right hon. Gentleman is faced with a threatened strike of teachers in Scotland as a result of his delay, despite the repeated warnings of my hon. Friends and myself, will he take steps to reassure the teachers on the question of the uncertificated members in their midst and give some reassurance to parents that the teachers will be as qualified as the doctors and dentists who examine their children? Will he treat this matter as one of great urgency?
    Mr. Noble: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is a scandal. He knows as well as most other hon. Members that this cannot be done without legislation, and there is no question of legislation this Session. I am sure that he does not expect me to anticipate next year's programme. The problems which the Committee had to take into consideration were the question of striking a proper balance between the requirements of the education service and the interests of the teaching profession. This it has done, and there is a great deal to be discussed before final decisions are reached. As for the strike, like many other hon. Members I regret threats of this sort, because they are bound to raise doubts in the minds of hon. Members and the public whether the teaching profession should be given wider powers to control its own affairs.
    Mr. Hannan: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Public Libraries and Museums
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to introduce legislation concerning public libraries and museums in Scotland.
    Mr. Noble: Legislation ought in my view to await the outcome of the present review of local government organisation. I have had no representations from local authorities that it is urgently needed.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the speech made by the Chairman of the Scottish Libraries Association regretting the fact that Scotland was excluded from the provisions of the recent Public Libraries and Museums Bill, and that although the Bill was very limited in scope there were nevertheless certain advantages which Scotland could have derived from it but of which she has been deprived? Will he consider the question again?
    Mr. Noble: I was aware of the speech. We are in the process of considering a complete reorganisation of local authority functions and boundaries in Scotland, and I think that we should await the result of that.

    Motorways
    Mr. Steeleasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many miles of motorway have been completed in Scotland.
    Mr. Noble: None, Sir, as yet.
    Mr. Steele: Earlier on the right hon. Gentleman was complimenting himself on putting forward building regulations quicker than his colleague in England and Wales. It is all right for him to compliment himself on that, but is he aware that 300 miles of motorway have been completed in England and Wales? Why is it that there is such a great delay in Scotland?
    Mr. Noble: I am delighted that the hon. Member should think that my

    1281
    stating the facts amounts to my complimenting myself. The need for motorways in England is of a very different order from what is required in Scotland.
    Mr. Brewis: Is it not the case that many miles of motorway are under construction? Can my right hon. Friend give some indication of how many miles will be opened, say, in three years' time?
    Mr. Noble: I would hope that about 19 miles would be opened.

    Accused Persons (Remand in Custody)
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has completed his investigations into the extent and nature of the practice by Scottish courts of remanding persons in custody before trial; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Noble: The investigation is nearly completed. I am proposing to include the main information obtained in the annual Prisons Report which should be ready for publication by the end of July.
    Mr. Lawson: May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that it was in February that he told us that this investigation was to take place? Will he bear in mind that at the end of July there will be no opportunity to comment on what is said in the Report? Will he ensure that we have the Report early in July, and not at the end of the month, so that we may have some chance of saying something about it in the House?
    Mr. Noble: I will try to give the hon. Member the information as soon as it is available. But, as he knows, the detailed analysis of a great many cases is a fairly slow operation.
    Mr. Lawson: Is the Minister aware—he said it himself—that they were taking a selection of cases, only a sample of cases, extending over two months in order that this matter might be examined in some detail thoroughly and quickly? Surely this is something which ought to have been done long before now?
    Mr. Noble: I think that it has been done as quickly as has been possible.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
    Miss. Braddock: May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether any approach has been made by the Ministry of Defence for permission to answer Question No. 69 now, in view of the very serious position which arises? Have you had any request from the Ministry for permission to answer this Question?
    Mr. Speaker: No, I have had no such request.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock—[The Prime Minister.]

ROAD TRAFFIC ACT 1956 (AMENDMENT)
3.32 p.m.
Sir John Langford-Holt: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to exclude the revenue from parking meters from liability to taxation.
The House is to continue an important debate shortly, and I shall, therefore, confine my remarks to the bare minimum and be as quick as I can in the interests of hon. Members.
The first matter to examine on this Motion is the purpose of Parliament and the Government in providing parking meters. Different people have different views, but, within certain limits, the purposes of Parliament and the Government are, in my view identical; first, that the highway should not be used as a long-term parking place; secondly, that a charge should be made to discourage this habit; and, thirdly, that the money thus provided should be used for the purpose of providing off-street parking places.
When we look more closely at the problem we find that it is the aim of the Government, by classing parking meter operations as trading, and by taxing the net income of those operations, to force local authorities into creating losses by spending money on building garages. In 1959, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Sir R. Nugent) was Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, he said:
"The present structure is such that there is the greatest possible incentive for local authorities which are collecting motor revenue to build some off-street garages …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th June, 1959, Vol. 608, c. 412.]
This was a fairly clear statement of what the Government had in mind. My right hon. Friend referred to "off-street garages" and at some appropriate time I should be interested to know his definition of an off-street garage.
The results of this policy have been very nearly nonsensical. Out of every 6d. which goes into a parking meter 1⅓d. is expended on the setting up and maintaining of the scheme, loan charges on meters, their size and carriageway markings. I am quoting from a Ministry of Transport Press notice. Another 1d. goes on administration expenses and 1⅔d.
1284
goes on enforcement—the wages of the attendants and wardens. Thus, 4d. is expended on these necessary expenses. Of the 2d. which is left, ½d. is taken by the Inland Revenue as tax. That means that if Income Tax were not deducted, there would be an increase in the revenue by one-third from the present level.
I could quote examples from London's boroughs to show that the result of all this has been that off-street parking facilities are not being provided, as was intended. What happens is that local authorities notice that the Government take 25 per cent. of the net income and accept the fact that it will take just that much longer to provide the off-street parking facilities that Parliament intended should be provided from the revenue; with the alternative that the authorities could create large financial liabilities for themselves and for their ratepayers.
Up to a point, the aim of Parliament was the same as that of the Government. We had in mind that the highway was not a place where long-term parking could be permitted; that a charge should be made to discourage it and that the net income should go to provide off-street parking. From inquiries which I have made I am certain that hon. Members never thought that the revenue would be subject to taxation. It was thought that all the net income from parking meters would be devoted to the provision of off-street parking facilities. This, in my view, was a condition of the support of hon. Members for the scheme and of motoring organisations as well, grudging though that support may have been.
Parliament intended, and still intends, I submit, that this should be done. It never intended that the meters should feed the Inland Revenue. In parenthesis, I might say that Parliament would probably be more reluctant to approve increasing meter charges if it were known that a greater proportion of that increase would be devoted to benefiting the tax man. If I am wrong in my view about what Parliament thought, then I hope that permission to introduce my Bill will be denied to me. If I am right, I hope that the House will grant me that right.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir J. Langford-Holt, Mr. Maude, Sir H. Linstead, Mr. Hocking, and Sir R. Russell.

ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 1956 (AMENDMENT)
Bill to exclude the revenue from parking meters from liability to taxation, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 26th June, and to be printed. [Bill 166.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [18TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHBR-GRAY in the Chair]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1964–65

  CLASS II
  VOTE 1. FOREIGN SERVICE
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a sum, not exceeding £19,305,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1965, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; for sundry services; and for certain grants in aid.—[£12,664,000 has been voted on account.]
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Redmayne], put and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Redmayne.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
3.40 p.m.
Mr. Denis Healey: One striking feature of yesterday's debate was the wide extent of agreement between both sides of the House, which, I think, is reflected in agreement on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, that the danger of war in Europe is receding and there is a growing possibility of reconciliation between Russia and the West, at least in so far as the security of Europe is concerned, in co-operation on some form of arms control.
On the other hand, the danger of war outside Europe is patently growing. In fact, war is a reality in many parts of the world. At this very moment British troops are engaged in fighting in Borneo

1287
and South Arabia and in recent months they have been fighting in Cyprus and East Africa; and American troops are heavily committed in fighting in South Vietnam. I think that we must all admit that this is bitterly contrary to our hopes. All of us believed that Britain's military commitments overseas would be reduced by the end of our old Empire and the creation of an independent Commonwealth, but, in fact, the military burden falling on us has, if anything, increased in recent years.
I have myself, during the last few weeks, had the opportunity to see British troops fighting in the forests of Borneo and among the crags of Southern Arabia. Like everyone who has seen them there, I have been impressed more than I can say by their gallantry, courage, patience and good humour. But it is right that we should ask the questions: why are they still fighting there; and what legitimate purpose do we serve by asking our young men to make these tremendous sacrifices?
Two answers are commonly given to this question: first, that our troops are overseas to protect Britain's national interests; and, secondly, that they are overseas to prevent the advance of international Communism. In my view, neither of these answers is fully adequate. If we look at the argument that our forces are protecting our interests overseas in the narrow national economic sense, I think that we should learn, from the events of 1956, that it will be rarely right or possible for Britain, or any other country, to use forces on foreign soil simply to protect its economic or commercial interests.
Moreover, I think it highly doubtful whether, if we define interests in this narrow economic or commercial sense, the value to our country of the present system under which we obtain oil from the countries around the Persian Gulf and obtain tin and copper from Malaya is really sufficient to justify the enormous cost of our overseas military capacity. If the protection of our economic or commercial interests there were our only concern I think that we might well decide that it would be wiser to rely wholly on diplomacy to win consent for the retention of our interests in foreign countries, because we might well discover
1288
that the losses we would risk by relying solely on diplomacy would probably be less than the cost of maintaining a military establishment overseas at anything like the present level.
The other argument which is often used to justify our military presence overseas is that we must retain our base in Aden, or in Singapore, and large military establishments which go with it, to fight the advance of international Communism. At first sight, this is a more plausible explanation. We see at the present time the use of force by Communists in Laos and Vietnam to extend their territorial control, but in Borneo this is not the problem we face. Nor was this the problem we faced when British troops went to the independent Commonwealth countries of East Africa last January.
If we are honest we must admit that many of the conflicts in Asia and in Africa in which we have been called on recently to intervene have nothing whatever to do with international Communism. They arise out of the political instability which is an inevitable consequence of the revolutionary changes now sweeping the continents of Africa and Asia and which may shortly be spreading also the continent of Latin America. Many of these conflicts have nothing whatever to do with Communism. They arise, in some cases, out of the legacy of imperialism and in other cases out of local power politics. The conflict between Algeria and Morocco, the conflict in Ruanda between the Hutu and the Watutsi, the conflict between the two communities who live on the island of Cyprus and between India and Pakistan over Kashmir—in all these conflicts, and hundreds of others like them, Communism is not a major factor.
At worst, Communist parties or Powers may wish to exploit the instability, but are not themselves the prime cause of this instability which is so common and which, alas, in many parts of Africa and Asia, seems to be increasing rather than declining and presents a major danger to world peace. I believe that it presents a danger to the Communist Powers no less than to the Western Powers.
The idea that international Communism is the problem which we face

1289
in Africa and Asia is a nonsense from the start, because, as the Foreign Secretary pointed out yesterday, Communism internationally is no longer, as it once was, a single monolithic bloc. The solidarity of the Communist world movement has been shattered beyond repair and the process of distintegration will go a great deal further before it is finally halted. We all in Britain, I think, have accepted, and a large part of the American people have also accepted, the fact that polycentrism, as it is sometimes called, is a reality in Europe, a reality which, in many respects, produces a more favourable situation for world peace, a reality which we can seek to encourage although we should not seek to exploit it overmuch.
But this polycentrism is no less a reality for Asia, too. Every single Asian Communist Party today is split in the ideological struggle between Moscow and Peking. A few days before I arrived in Tokyo the Japanese Communist Party split and a courageous member voted for the Test Ban Treaty. Even those Communist Parties in Asia which sympathise with China in the international Communist schism show themselves extremely reluctant to accept subordination to China in the conduct of their national policies. Even the Communist Parties of North Vietnam and North Korea, which support the line of Mao Tse-tung in the great ideological dispute, have shown themselves most unwilling to accept the Chinese view on how the ideological argument with the Russians should be conducted.
For this reason, in those parts of Asia where Communism is clearly at work, subverting institutions of the non-Communist world, it would be a mistake to assume without evidence that that Communism is centrally directed from Moscow or even from China. There is much evidence to suggest that even the Vietnam Communist Party, although it holds heavy responsibility for Laos and South Vietnam, is not acting as a satellite of Peking.
In this respect, I think that we might take some warning from the recent revelation of the Yugoslav Communist, Mr. Djilas, that during the Greek civil war of 1944 and 1945 the Soviet Communist Party was, in fact, trying to hold the Yugoslav Communist Party back and that the main external sponsors of the revolt were in Belgrade rather than in Moscow.
1290
I believe that the real justification for the British military presence in Asia, Africa and the Middle East is that Britain can make an indispensable contribution to the stability of these great continents, a contribution which, at the moment, no other country in the world is capable of making, certainly in the vast area between Suez and Singapore. The presence of British troops in these areas in itself can act as a deterrent to local conflicts and can reduce the risk of war; and if war breaks out, the commitment of British troops can prevent avoidable human suffering and, above all, can help to prevent a small war from turning into a large war in which the world Powers become directly engaged.
I suggest that we have not only an interest but an obligation to make a contribution in this field, above all because we are a key member of an international Commonwealth which has important members in these continents, many of whom are bound to us by treaty. The interest which we are satisfying by our presence in these areas is not only a British interest, not only an interest of the local peoples, but an interest of the whole world.
If I may be permitted a digression—this struck me very much during my recent visit to these countries—when we offer a country such as Malaysia assistance against external aggression, we are not simply fulfilling a juridical obligation. In this case we are protecting a society which, in Asia, is a shining example of human welfare and racial co-operation in striking contrast to the country which at present threatens it. In this sense we are performing a human responsibility as well as a national and juridical one.
But if this is the real justification for our presence in these continents, if our rôle is essentially peace keeping and a contribution to international stability, as I believe it is and as, I think, right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite believe it is, then we are performing a rôle which is at least as worth while as, and in my view infinitely more worth while than, any rôle which we have performed in these continents in the past. But we must accept that it raises problems with which we are totally unfamiliar and in which our imperial

1291
tradition can give us little guidance. Inevitably, when one travels among British troops in these parts of the world one finds impatience and frustration at the limitations imposed on British action.
Before I come down to detailed cases I should like to offer some tentative general thoughts on the nature of this problem. First—and I do not think that anybody can deny this—if British troops operate in these Asian-African areas, we can do so only with the consent of the local peoples. We could not, even if we wished, any longer impose our will on these peoples as if they were still British Colonies. Moreover—and perhaps this is more difficult to accept—we shall very rarely find ourselves in a position to decide an issue ourselves. Our rôle is to provide support for independent Governments, and the success of our contribution will depend primarily on their ability to meet the challenges which face them. If they fail, there is nothing that we, or for that matter the Americans, can do.
I agree very much with what the Foreign Secretary said on his recent tour, and, if I may say so, I found that he had left the most happy and favourable memories behind him in Tokyo and Manila. I agree very much with him when he said that only Asians can find solutions to Asian problems. I hope that he will agree with me, too, that only the peoples of the Middle East can find solutions to Middle Eastern problems.
On the other hand, if we assume the responsibilities of this peace-keeping rôle not for selfish national gain but as a contribution to international stability, then I think that we can justifiably claim certain rights to go with our responsibilities. We must be able to give advice to those whom we assist. We cannot unconditionally commit ourselves to act as a police force if we have no part whatever in decidinig the laws which we are upholding.
This is particularly important if, as I hope will very rarely happen, we are called on to assist in keeping internal order, because if ever British troops find themselves committed to preserving internal order in a foreign country they must be satisfied, and the Government
1292
who send them there must be satisfied, that the order which they are protecting is a just one.
The other general point which I should like to make is this: when British troops fight in Borneo, or perform a rôle in Africa or the Middle East, they are operating not just on behalf of Britain, or even on behalf of the local people, but on behalf of all those who have interests in stability in the area. I think that we also have the right to demand the relevant co-operation from those other Powers which have interests in the area the stability of which we are seeking to preserve, whether those countries are, as in the Far East, Australia and New Zealand, or, as in the Middle East, America and Western Europe.
Nobody who has thought about these problems or has looked at them on the ground can deny that the problem of creating the right political framework in which to operate is one of daunting complexity and difficulties. For this reason, as well as for many others, I believe that whenever possible our operations should take place within a United Nations context and under United Nations auspices, athough we must accept that in many cases we shall have to act first in response to a request and seek later to construct the framework of United Nations support which will enable us to stay there, as indeed we did, although in the view of this side of the House belatedly, in the case of Cyprus.
Moreover, I think that it will usually be in our interests to encourage cooperation on a regional basis between the local powers. As the Foreign Secretary said when he was in the Far East, the concept of Maphilindo may prove to be very fruitful in helping to end the conflict in Indonesia and Malaysia. I believe, for example, that many of the problems in Indo-China might be rendered easier to deal with if the Mekong Valley development scheme could be got under way.
Unity among the Arab peoples would be a most valuable contribution to stability in the Middle East and one which we should always make it our aim to encourage. The problem is one of great complexity. Our rôle essentially is to create the conditions of peace in

1293
which others can seek political solutions, not to find, still less to impose, a solution ourselves. The major responsibility must always lie on the people of the area themselves.
But, besides the contribution which we can make towards creating stability in Africa and Asia, Britain, as a world Power, has certain opportunities to ease problems by seeking agreement with other world Powers, above all with Russia, to assist in achieving stability in these continents. This point has been made before, but I return to it because I am more convinced than ever of its importance.
If the great industrial Powers of East and West could get together and agree on limiting their arms deliveries to the countries of the Middle East, Africa and Asia, they would make an enormous contribution towards a reduction of the instability which now torments those continents. It seems to me that it is a criminal diversion of scarce resources from the battle against poverty to encourage the local Powers in Africa and Asia to enter upon a spiralling arms race against one another, whether Egypt against Israel, or Indonesia against Malaysia. I hope that either the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary will be able to give us his views on this issue.
I believe, also—I think that there is no disagreement between the two sides of the House on this—that it is very desirable to try to reach agreement with the Russians that neither they nor the West will seek military advantage from the political changes which are inevitable in Africa and Asia. We had one such example of a neutralisation agreement, though it was rarely recognised as such, in the agreement between Russia and the United States over Cuba in 1962. As I understand that agreement, it involved an American undertaking not to try to overturn the pro-Communist régime in Cuba by force, in return for a Soviet undertaking not to try to take military advantage of the existence of such a régime in Cuba. The only other example we have so far is the agreement in 1962 on neutralising Laos, to which I shall return in a moment or two.
However, if we are honest, we must admit that Russia's power to decide what happens in the Far East is now very limited. The key to any great Power
1294
understanding in the Far East is some sort of understanding between the West and Communist China. I admit that the isolation of Communist China today is partly self-imposed. Nevertheless, the Chinese quarrel with Russia has given us opportunities for improving our relations with China as dramatic as those we all recognise it has given us to improve our relations with the Soviet Union. It is a great mistake to assume that everything the Russians say about the Chinese in their ideological argument is true. Much has changed in the Soviet Union since the death of Stalin, but one thing which has not changed is the totally dishonest and unscrupulous nature of inter-Communist polemic.
If we look at Chinese behaviour and compare it with Soviet behaviour, we are struck by the fact that the only obvious risk of war between a Communist Power and the West was that taken by the Soviet Union over Cuba in October, 1962. China, on the other hand, has conducted her relations with the West with extreme care. She has not even laid a finger on the Portuguese colony of Macao, which is right inside her own territory.
We must do our best to establish more normal diplomatic relations between the West and China. I believe that the time is long overdue when the Communist régime should take China's seat in the United Nations. I realise that this feeling, which, I think, is shared on both sides of the House, still causes deep revulsion in the United States, but I believe that many Americans are beginning to recognise that, whether they like it or not, their position on China and the United Nations is likely to become untenable in the next few years. It is not too early, even though we disagree about this question, for us to consult with our American allies on some of the contingent issues which will arise if the United Nations votes to elect Peking to the Chinese seat, particularly the right of the people of Taiwan to self-determination and a revision of the structure of the Security Council to take account of the tremendous changes in the world since 1944, when the United Nations Charter was first drafted.
After these, I hope not too boring, general comments, I turn to the central problems which threaten peace today, the

1295
problems of the three Indo-Chinese States, the confrontation between Malaysia and Indonesia and the problem in South Arabia—all areas which I have been fortunate enough to visit in the past few weeks. I realise that my acquaintance with these problems is of necessity very superficial, but I have been rather heartened to find that even experts who have lived in the areas for 30 years disagree with one another about the solution of them, so perhaps an attempt at a disinterested outside judgment may not be entirely without value.
First, Indo-China. On both sides of the House, we all hope that it will be possible to neutralise Cambodia and Laos. We should use all our possible influence to this end. I believe that there is no disagreement about this between the Foreign Secretary and hon. Members on this side. But it is very difficult—I confess this to my hon. Friends—to apply the same solution to Vietnam at this time. In the first place, it is very difficult to apply a Laotian solution to Vietnam if the Laotian solution is not seen to work, and, at present, the neutralisation of Laos is still very much an uncertainty.
Secondly, we must accept that Vietnam presents a problem of unique difficulty. Incidentally, the uniqueness of the situation in Vietnam should be warning against assuming that what happens in Vietnam must necessarily set a pattern for what happens in other parts of Asia. Vietnam has a large and old Communist Party, the leaders of which were trained mainly in Moscow and France, not in China, a Communist Party which has been totally committed to guerrilla warfare for the last 20 years, first against the Japanese, then against the French, and then against the Government of South Vietnam and their American supporters.
It is a Communist Party incredibly skilled in all the tactics of guerrilla warfare. For example, when I was in the Mekong Delta, I heard of its guerrillas talking down an American helicopter, a type of problem which, fortunately, we have never faced in our experience of guerrilla warfare. It is a guerrilla movement which is extremely well led by General Giap who, one must confess, is one of the outstanding
1296
guerrilla leaders of all time. Moreover, Vietnam is a country artificially divided by international agreement in 1954.
The central problem in South Vietnam is to win the confidence and support of the local population. It is now universally admitted, I think, that, under the Diem régime in South Vietnam, appalling errors, both military and political, were committed, and the price was paid in full after the inevitable fall of the Diem régime last autumn and the capture of almost two-thirds of the country by the Vietcong guerrillas in the administrative chaos which followed the end of the Diem régime.
My impression, from a very short visit during which I visited two of the so-called "new life" hamlets, one near Cambodia and the other in the Mekong Delta, is that many of the mistakes made in the past have now been corrected. In particular, the "new life" hamlets, or strategic hamlets as we used to call them in Malaya, are now being established intelligently, by persuasion. Hamlets are not being established until the security of their inhabitants is totally guaranteed. The troops do not move on from one hamlet until they and the local population are quite satisfied that its inhabitants can afterwards fend for themselves.
There is no doubt that the very rapid decline in the situation which followed the collapse of the Diem régime was slowed down considerably in March on the adoption of the new pacification programme. I believe that the decline can be stemmed and reversed on one condition, and that is that the South Vietnam Government continue to offer their people a simple, consistent and patient policy, roughly along the existing lines. It is impossible at present to say whether the policy is being successfully applied. We shall know better in the autumn. But, certainly, the United States can do no more.
If I may say so, I thought that it was an extraordinary ungracious slogan which the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) used yesterday, that the Americans are leaving all the chores to the British and keeping all the plums to themselves. No one who has seen the way the American soldiers are facing the problem which faces them in

1297
Vietnam can doubt that the Americans are making sacrifices in this field certainly comparable with any which so far we have been called upon to make. Certainly, the United States can do no more. The essential responsibility now for the situation in Vietnam lies with the Government in Saigon.
Now, if I may pass to Malaysia and Indonesia, here we have a totally different problem. The Federation of Malaysia was set up by the consent of all the peoples concerned, a consent which was verified by the United Nations' mission. All the territories in the Malaysian Federation are healthy, thriving societies. Co-operation has been achieved, to a degree which many would never have conceived possible, between the Malay and Chinese peoples and the peoples of Sabah and Sarawak. Singapore, I think, presents an example unique in Asia in democratic socialist government, achieving standards of housing and welfare for its population which many European countries would envy, and we have a secure base in Singapore with the full consent, given again and again, of the local population.
The problem which faces us in Borneo today is very unlike the problem in Vietnam. There is a flagrant violation of an international frontier by forces of the Indonesian regular army. Incidentally, the irregular forces which the Indonesians sent in have proved so incompetent at their task that, I understand, a larger and larger proportion of Indonesian regular forces is now being committed. It seems to me rather extraordinary that an admitted violation of a frontier by regular armed forces should be accepted with such equanimity by so many countries in the world.
Nevertheless my impression was that the small number of Malaysian and British troops now engaged in protecting that frontier do have effective control of it, although 10,000 men are trying to control 1,000 miles of mountainous forest, and so far there has been no internal response of any consequence to the Indonesian attempts to subvert the peoples of Sabah and Sarawak. Indeed, there is some evidence that it is the strain on the Indonesian forces at this time which has persuaded President Sukarno to call for a Summit conference and he is attending the one now taking place in Tokyo.
1298
I sincerely hope—I think that we all, on both sides of the House, must hope—that President Sukarno will now recognise that he miscalculated the situation in Borneo, and that he is facing there a united population, and that a continuation of the confrontation is no more in the interests of Indonesia than it is in the interests of Malaysia, though I must say that the auguries for agreement were not encouraging when I was in Borneo.
The day I arrived there was an incursion of between 70 to 100 Indonesians into central Borneo, and I believe that there has been another major incursion since. Here again, I think that it is just conceivable that the outside Powers, by supporting the concept of Maphilindo, particularly in supporting the concept of a Maphilindo economic development plan, might perhaps provide an incentive for co-operation between the three local States which would help to overcome their political rivalries.
If I may, I should like just to make a brief comment on the military situation, though I promise the Secretary of State for Defence that I shall make it very short and, I believe, not very controversial. As I said earlier, I think that the courage and ability and patience shown by the Malaysian and British troops in this situation is well-nigh incredible. I think that we have learned certain lessons from Borneo which we could well apply in any war of this nature. One lesson, which I know the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) would agree about, is the supreme value of Gurkha troops in such a situation. I say no more about that. The second is the quite exceptional value of unconventional forces such as the Special Air Services, the eyes and ears of the Army. I hope that the Secretary of State for Defence will consider expanding this force considerably.
Thirdly, and perhaps most important of all, is the crying need for helicopters. One of the local commanders has said that one battalion with helicopters is worth a brigade without them, and, if anything, it seems to me that that is an understatement, because in this type of country one can travel at 60 miles an hour in a helicopter but can only travel one mile a day without it. Quite frankly, it would be a waste of time putting more is evolving very fast; something, let me

1299
needed, unless one can provide them with helicopters at least on the scale on which they are provided at present in Borneo, although I would say that scale is still inadequate.
One of the lessons which I think one learns in South Vietnam and also in Aden is the irrelevance of expensive sophisticated weapons in this type of war. Even the replacement of the Javelins by Lightnings is likely to present a problem of control in Borneo which would render these highly sophisticated aircraft almost useless. If the Secretary of State for Defence is right, as I believe he is, in saying what he has so often said, that the main weight of Britain's military efforts should now be overseas, the balance of our arms production requires very substantial correction compared with the type of production we organised when we saw the main problem as the defence of Europe.
Finally on Malaysia, a political point. Tremendous efforts are being made by the Indonesians to win over the tribes in Sabah and Sarawak and to subvert the Chinese population, and there is also in Sarawak a very formidable clandestine Communist organisation of about 800 to 1,000 members who have recently been receiving military training from the Indonesian army in Kalimantan. I believe that Malaysia has nothing to fear from confrontation by Indonesia so long as the local peoples in Borneo get fair play and equal treatment. If they get fair play and equal treatment there is no danger of subversion by the Indonesians, and I have every confidence provided that this is achieved. Unpleasant and disagreeable as is the task of defending Sarawak and Sabah from incursion it is a tolerable one, and it is a duty we must perform as part of our responsibility to a Commonwealth ally and as part of our general contribution towards supporting the Afro-Asian world.
I want to deal, finally, with the situation in Southern Arabia. Anyone who travels from Malaysia to Southern Arabia must be struck by the very disappointing situation in Southern Arabia compared with Malaysia. I think that the problems of these two areas are today very similar. In both areas we have separate units of the population, on the one hand, detribalised city dwellers working in a
1300
base area which is totally separate from its hinterland, and, on the other, a hinterland of traditional rulers, Malay princes in Malaysia, tribal sheikdoms in the case of Southern Arabia, but in the case of Southern Arabia, still tormented by many internal conflicts among one another.
A third similarity which springs to mind is that in both cases one has pressure on these political units from a neighbouring State which has nationals in the base areas, Yemenis in the case of Aden, and sympathisers also in the sheikhdoms.
One of the problems that we have all been bitterly condemning in recent months is the tribal conflict inside the States of the Protectorates. The Radfani tribe, against whom the recent operations have been mounted, have resisted administration for 80 years. It is extraordinary to look back on the history since 1882 when the Radfani first announced their unwillingness to accept the authority of the Emir of Dhala.
There is no doubt that in recent months, partly, I think, owing to the inadequate resources of the Federal Government—I believe that the Secretary for Defence now will bitterly regret what he said about the irrelevance of economic questions in a situation like this—many of the Radfani went over to the Yemen because they were offered military training and rifles and were paid by the Yemen out of all proportion to what they were offered by the Federal Government in the Protectorates.
As I say, a military operation has been mounted, and all the evidence is that it is now over. I had the extraordinary experience last Friday of helicoptering up to the top of the Djebel Huriya, which had just been taken by the East Anglians—I doubt whether the East Anglians have ever fought in territory more unlike that where they were recruited—and looking down on almost the whole of the Radfan territory with not a single human being or animal in sight other than, of course, the troops who were occupying the area.
The real test now is that of the political wisdom of the Federal Government and their British advisers over the next six months, and the real test of the wisdom and success of the military operation which has just been concluded

1301
is whether the Radfani now return to their lands and whether they remain loyal when the harvest is over and the British troops have gone. I believe that the military job is now done. There is now a tremendous political and economic job facing Britain and the Federal Government in providing incentives for the Radfani to remain loyal citizens of the Federal State.
The troops have done their job magnificently, but I think that it still has to be seen how far these people can be offered the incentives to return. Nothing is more sad, incidentally, then to stand on the top of Djebel Huriya and look down on the incredibly ingenious terracing of these barren mountain sides and to see the green crops springing up in the fields and not a soul in sight because the whole of the local population has fled and dispersed in fear into neighbouring territories.
I hope that either the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary will have something to say later in the date about the steps which are now being taken, now that the military operation is over, to win the Radfani back. Incidentally, I hope that one of them will comment on the report in the Guardian today that in October last year seven petitioners from the Radfani tribe approached the High Commission or the Federal Government with requests for changes in the constitution, particularly in the relationship of the Radfani to the Emir of Dhala, and that the petitioners were arrested and all but one are still in gaol, and that one was let out of gaol only on condition that his son took his place as a hostage. I really cannot feel that the political aspects of the problem have been handled in the past as they should have been, and I hope that we can at least get some assurances for the future when we get the Government reply to the debate.
I turn to the broader issues of the South Arabian Federation and the Aden base. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) repeated yesterday, we on our side of the House believe on the information that we now possess that the Aden base is necessary to Britain's military rôle in
1302
Africa and the Middle East. The facilities which it now provides could, I suppose, be replaced or recreated elsewhere, but I am very doubtful whether the cost of recreating those facilities would be in proportion to the political and military advantages of recreating them.
Clearly, we must try to keep a military base in Aden, but we must accept—surely we have learnt this lesson again and again over the last 15 years—that a military base is useless without the consent of the people who live and work in it. It is no good at all having a military base if one has to commit so many troops to protecting it against local attack that one is not able to spare any troops to use from it, and, in particular, in the Middle East it is no good having a base if the steps that one takes to maintain it make one's friends unwilling to call on one for military help.
This, I think, has been a real danger in recent weeks as far as Kuwait is concerned, as the Prime Minister will recognise in the light of the statements made by the Kuwaiti Foreign Minister during his recent visit to London. The consent of those living and working in the base area is indispensable to the retention of the base, but what strikes any visitor to Aden is that those living and working there are Adenis, and that the base area is as separated—both Little Aden and Aden itself—from the hinterland as Gibraltar is from Spain.
The key to our position in Aden is the good will of the population of Aden Colony themselves. I myself cannot resist the conclusion that we should have followed in Southern Arabia the path we followed with such success in Malaysia. That is to say, we should have won the good will of the Adenis by giving them self-government as we gave self-government to the people of Singapore, and then, with their good will, we should have sought to construct some relationship between Aden and its hinterland.
The Government, as we all know, took the opposite course. They halted political development in Aden in order to force the Adenis into a federation with the hinterland, a federation of a type which put this comparatively advanced population of Aden under the control of the traditional rulers of the Protectorates. I believe that the main reason why the

1303
Government have called a current conference on Aden is to correct these errors and revise the constitution accordingly.
It seems to me that three steps are absolutely indispensable. The first is that elections should be held in Aden to produce a more representative Aden Government. I was disturbed to find, when I was there last week, that so far only 6,000 people have registered out of the 24,000 qualified to register for the election and out of a total population of 220,000 in Aden Colony.
Secondly, there must be a looser relationship between Aden and the hinterland, perhaps on the model of the Malaysian relationship, so that Aden would be one unit in the Federation and the other combination of the Protectorate States would be a separate unit. A thousand years of history separate the societies of the hinterland from the society in Aden Colony, and it seems to me on my brief acquaintance with the problem to be just as unrealistic to think that one can make the Adenis march at the slow pace of the sheikhdoms in the Protectorates as to think that one can make the Protectorates march at the much more rapid pace of the Adenis in the Colony.
Thirdly, no independence agreement must be reached for the Federation until this revision is achieved, otherwise we shall be doing in Southern Arabia what we did in Zanzibar, where we gave independence to a State where the balance of constitutional authority did not represent the balance of opinion at all. If we take these measures—I am sure that it is not too late—I believe that we shall get the willing consent of the Aden population for Britain's retention of the base. I think that they all recognise that the base is necessary for their prosperity. Many of them feel that it is necessary for their security. One of the striking consequences of recent events is that enthusiasm in Aden, even among the Yemenis, for immediate union with the Yemen is very much on the wane.
Mr. Charles Loughlin: Will my hon. Friend explain what he hopes to achieve from the London conference when the personnel invited to the conference are sheikhs, sultans and nominated members by the British authorities with no representatives
1304
of the population? How can the London conference achieve anything in the context of the present situation in Aden?
Mr. Healey: My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will be dealing with this problem in more detail later this evening. If the Government are not now aware of the feeling of the Aden population, they jolly well ought to be. They ought to take the feeling of the Aden population, as it is being presented to them unofficially by the opposition parties, into account in reaching any agreement in the conference.
The long-term security of the base in Aden—I think that this cannot be stressed too strongly—must depend on the nature of Britain's foreign policy in the Middle East as a whole. One of the most extraordinary remarks I have read in years was one made by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies when he was in Aden a fortnight ago. The hon. Gentleman was quoted by the Daily Telegraph as saying that
"the British base in Aden was a purely 'domestic matter between Britain, Aden and the Federal Government. He was not interested in what the Arab world or others thought about it."
Surely, by now, the Government know that when a colonial problem is solved an international problem is created. It is impossible, especially if one is considering giving independence to South Arabia, to expect South Arabia to remain totally immune from all the currents and tides of opinion in the rest of the Arab world.
The Government's whole policy in the Middle East in recent years seems to assume that the wind of change in Africa stopped dead when it reached the western shores of the Red Sea. The fact is that the wind of change in the Middle East is older and stronger even than the wind of change in Africa. In the Middle East, Nasser's Egypt, whether we like it or not, is as important as Mao's China is important in the Far East. British policy in the Middle East must not be continually distorted, as it has been in recent years, by a guilty jingoism or by the psychological trauma which the Government inflicted on themselves at Suez eight years ago.
It really is an extraordinary fact—I confess that I had not been conscious of

1305
it until I was in Aden—that at one time last year we had no diplomatic relations with any of the States bordering on the South Arabian Federation. I am glad to say that we have restored diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia in the last 12 months. We still have none with Somalia or with the Yemen. A basic reconstruction of our attitude towards the Arab peoples is absolutely essential if we are to continue to obtain oil from the Persian Gulf on reasonable terms and if we are to continue to maintain a base in the Middle East. I think that the Kuwait Government see this very much more clearly than the Government in London. Incidentally, in 1961, when we did intervene in Kuwait, we had the support of the Arab League and we handed over the responsibility later to troops from Egypt and from South Arabia.
The political genius of Britain has always been best expressed in our ability to adjust ourselves to change and to accept realities for what they are. If we can apply this genius to the Middle East as we have already applied it in Africa and Asia, then we can guarantee ourselves a central rôle in fighting the great battle against instability and poverty in Africa and Asia and in the Middle East as well. I believe that it is the part we play in these battles which will make Britain once again truly great.
4.35 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): One of the most agreeable aspects of yesterday's debate was that the House had the pleasure of hearing the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths). My hon. Friend made a speech of real distinction. There was a great deal of original thought expressed in it, with the maximum economy of words. When an hon. Member can achieve that, he will always have the ear and the respect of the House. I would only add that, if my hon. Friend had ever written my speeches, they would have been even better than they were.
I think that the House will agree that we have listened to a very thoughtful review of his Far Eastern and Middle Eastern tour by the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). I was very interested in it, and I do not find that
1306
I quarrel in any way with the analysis that he made of the policies which should be directed towards solving the problems either in Laos or in South Vietnam or as regards the Malaysian-Indonesian conflict.
The House will have been encouraged to have had from the hon. Gentleman as a witness the very encouraging statement that he made about the progress of the multi-racial State of Malaysia. I myself have always thought that a final settlement in this part of the world would be covered broadly by the word which the hon. Gentleman used, namely, "Maphilindo"—an economic and political plan, and perhaps a defence plan, covering the security of that area. The timing of it would have to be extremely carefully worked out, and this is not a solution, I think, at this moment which could probably be put forward with advantage.
I will ask my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to answer some of the detailed questions which the hon. Gentleman put about the Middle East. I have no quarrel with the hon. Gentleman's statement that it is essential for us—and, indeed, for the free world, I would suggest—to retain the base at Aden. Nor would I quarrel with the hon. Gentleman when he went on to say that it is necessary now to find a political settlement which will make that base secure. I think that that is right, and it would be agreed.
I think that the best service I can do to the House is to try to bring together now some of the wider ranging themes which ran through the speeches which were mad; by hon. Members yesterday and by the hon. Gentleman today. When my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary opened the debate yesterday he was able to mark a new flexibility in international relations. All the speeches which followed my right hon. Friend's were consciously seeking ways of escaping the old confrontations of the cold war which have consumed so much of our resources in recent years and have threatened us from time; to time with extinction since the end of the last war.
Our debate—I am glad that this is so—is an extension of a debate which is now being carried on on both sides of the Iron Curtain, and, indeed, far further afield. There are two aspects

1307
of it which, I think, perhaps struck hon. Gentlemen, as they struck me, which are both connected with the contrast which there is between this debate which we hold now and other foreign affairs debates which we have held in either House in recent years.
One aspect of this which has struck me in particular—this was mentioned by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) and by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton)—is that it is no longer accurate to talk of an East-West confrontation in terms of two blocs. That is new. Russia is now divided from China and the countries of Eastern Europe are now questioning the right of the Soviet Union to take decisions which will control matters which they consider to be of their own national interest.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick had some experience of this when he visited Roumania. I marked this change almost two years ago when I was at the Foreign Office, and we were able to take certain steps to improve the contacts between this country and the countries of Eastern Europe, with the exception, which he made, of East Germany.
The right hon. Gentleman said that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary had said little that was new, but these two facts are new: that Russia and China are divided and that there is a new flexibility in Eastern Europe. The implications of them are profound for the future of humanity everywhere in the world. Just as significant as this fact is, I suggest, the cause of the breach between the Soviet Union and China, and to that neither the right hon. Gentleman nor some other speakers gave perhaps enough attention. I think that it is partly a physical pressure over thousands of miles of frontier, largely, let us remember, undefended, of a country which has a population which is increasing very fast—China's population is increasing at an Asian rate while Russia's population is increasing at a European rate—and also the proximity to a neighbour which has a history of expansion.
Both these things must be causing the Soviet Union great anxiety, but I
1308
suggest that the change in attitude of the Soviet Union is mainly because the Russian leaders have a new knowledge of what nuclear war means. In particular, they have gained that since Cuba. The Chinese still refuse to admit this, but the Russians have understood now that one cannot risk brinkmanship with nuclear weapons because to do so would be catastrophic. Mao Tse-tung still believes that he can threaten with nuclear weapons, but the Russians know better. And this situation, again, is new and of profound significance to the world.
One of my hon. Friends laid his finger on a point which, again, is of immense significance, because this new interpretation by the Soviet Union of Communist doctrine which has hitherto included the use of force, means just this: that the Russians have admitted that the nuclear strength of the West is a deterrent power and is likely to remain so. The second admission is that in their eyes the scale of nuclear power now commanded by the West has made nonsense of the Communist doctrine, which has so far been a religion of the Russians and Chinese, that force is a legitimate instrument to gain political ends.
If I were to make a long-term prophecy—and I go not very far from the hon. Member for Leeds, East in this—and speculate as to the attitude of the Chinese, I believe that they, in turn, will come to recognise, and recognise before it is too late, that the sole result of a nuclear strike by any nuclear power is immediate annihilation by the second strike of another. That is a fact of modern power, and two things about it are worth noting. First, that that situation will prevail so long as there is a threat and so long as the nerve of the West holds. Secondly, that in any threat by China which might start a nuclear war it is worth remembering, as we look forward, that the interests of the Soviet Union and the West would coincide and would be as one.
I hope that we shall never come to that terrible day, when the Chinese might be tempted to use a nuclear weapon which they will acquire. Far better, as the hon. Member for Leeds, East said, that China should be in the United Nations, that there should be increased contact between the West and China and that

1309
China should be gradually weaned away, as we have weaned the Russians away, from this policy of including force in Communist doctrine [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I think that hon. Members opposite will not quarrel with what I am saying, for it is true.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick—
Mr. William Warbey rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
The Prime Minister: I will give way, but I want to complete this point first.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick said yesterday that when I spoke of the effect of nuclear weapons and stressed its impact I always stressed its impact on the Soviet Union's thinking but never stressed it on that of the United States. He is mistaken. In another place, in February, 1963, I said:
"Nuclear power is putting its restraints on national ambitions. Even the giants are not in these days wholly independent. Interdependence is working on them, and if it is true of the Russians and of the United States it is certainly true of us."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords. 6th February, 1963; Vol. 246, col. 607.]
I said that also at a dinner of the Pilgrims in the United States. I have said it many times, so the right hon. Gentleman does not always think of everything first.
However, that does not imply, if I may follow up what he said—as I suspect it does in his mind and in the minds of his colleagues—that Cuba had an equal effect on the United States and Russia, because at that time, until Cuba, Russia had been advocating a policy of force and the United States had rejected any such doctrine. At Cuba—and this is the important point to remember—Russia tried to upset the balance of power which was keeping the peace and the United States was determined to retain it. So since the purposes of the two protagonists cannot in that case be equated, I suggest that the effects cannot be equated either.
That leads me to put renewed emphasis—and I believe that hon. Members must make up their minds about this, because I believe it to be true—on the fact that it is the nuclear balance of power which keeps the peace. I say
1310
that because hon. Gentlemen opposite so often give the impression that they want to change the balance between the nuclear and the conventional. Let us say—and I think that this is what they would do—that they would add to our conventional forces. I do not know how they would do it without conscription, but, having added to our conventional forces, other countries—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about equipment?"] I am coming to the subject of equipment—would follow suit. But is that not exactly what other countries did before 1914 and 1939, and is this not the pattern of armaments which failed to prevent war twice in my own generation?
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said yesterday that if there is a reduction in tension it is not because of benevolence; and that is quite true. I do not know how many serious wars there would not be at present if we had not got the nuclear weapon to deter. In these circumstances, therefore, I feel bound to tell the party opposite that its proposals to discard our nuclear arm and, at the same time, to increase conventional forces would contribute nothing either to avoiding war or to adding to collective security.
Mr. Warbey: I should like to follow the Prime Minister's argument that it is the threat of the use of nuclear weapons that has produced a state of stability and the prospect of peace in the world. Has he given thought to the fact that Mao Tse-tung is maintaining his power and, in the view of the party opposite, continuing the threat to the peace of the world, not by using nuclear weapons at all, but by failing to use them?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Membe starts with a misapprehension. I have never said that the peace of the world depends on the use of nuclear weapons. What I say is that it depends on their, not being used—on their deterring effect.
I must say that the strangest argument that I heard used yesterday in this connection was that our deterrent is under the control of the United States. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite are apparently willing to discard our Polaris submarines and, in so doing,

1311
hand over the total security of this country to the United States, but they are not prepared to trust the United States to deliver the machinery for the submarines. Not surprisingly, the country finds this attitude very difficult to follow.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) said yesterday, it really does not matter who makes the weapons; it is who controls them that matters. I might point out to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition that when he is increasing his conventional forces—tanks, armoured cars, and all the rest—they are, after all, as is every one of our armaments at present, run on imported supplies. Let him remember that.
The point is that our control over our nuclear arm is absolute—
Mr. Harold Wilson: This is a very interesting argument. Would the right hon. Gentleman say how many tactical nuclear weapons we control in Europe that are not controlled by the Americans owing to their control of the warhead? Will he give us the number? [HON. MEMBERS: "Security."] There is nothing secret about it. Will the Prime Minister tell us the types of tactical nuclear weapons—which, in his argument, are of fundamental importance—that we uniquely control in Europe?
The Prime Minister: As is well known, we operate under the key-of-the-cupboard system for nuclear weapons—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] As is also well known, when we get our Polaris submarines—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—we shall have our own warhead. I am talking about the nuclear deterrent; the right hon. Gentleman is talking about tactical weapons. If he wants the figure of tactical weapons, I can no doubt supply him with that, but I am now talking about the nuclear deterrent, over which we have complete control and for which we shall have our own warhead—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] That is what I understand the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends are to discard.
The second change that I think the House noted yesterday—perhaps a little less controversial—is that Soviet society is evolving very fast; something, let me
1312
suggest, that those who are hottest to act against other political systems of which they disapprove might do well to ponder. As the Russian people get more, they will want more. What is more, they will be less ready to risk what they have. Therefore, on the evidence before me, I have persisted in my view, put rather crudely, perhaps, that a fat Communist is to be preferred to a thin Communist. These arguments seem at long last to be making some impression on the United States of America. [Interruption.] I did not think that right hon. and hon. Members opposite quarelled with that. I thought that their whole purpose—and in this I believe that we feel the same—is that we should increase trade with Russian, and try to take advantage of the fact that I have recorded that society in Russia is evolving very fast.
The difference, if I may say so—and I believe this to be true—between the Russia of Stalin and the Russia of Mr. Khrushchev is that though one was and the other is a Communist—and we must never forget that—the people in Russia today are able to express their views and wishes. I have the strongest impression that any move by Mr. Khrushchev makes towards conciliation or co-operation with the West, to reduce tension and avoid conflict, will have the strongest support of the Russian people; indeed, that they are urging him on.
This we should mark, and did mark yesterday in speech after speech, as one of the significant features of the new world into which we are moving. Therefore, I welcome the increasing contacts, both political and social, that we are making with the Soviet Union. I want them to be multiplied, and I want them to be multiplied, too, with the countries of Eastern Europe.
Therefore, I feel that the foreign policy of this country—which, for the sake of shortness, I have often described as a two-handed foreign policy, is basically right; strength on the one hand, and conciliation on the other. By strength, I mean total firmness when Communist countries do, or try to do, things they ought not to be doing, and dogged determination to find out, or rather to create, common, ground on which we can agree and co-operate.
The result of the foreign policy of strength is shown, in the N.A.T.O. area, in

1313
which we have not, let us remember, lost an acre or a free man to the Communist countries. There will, nevertheless, be in the N.A.T.O. Alliance arguments as to how many divisions we might wish to put on the eastern frontier of Germany, or what weight of weapons, or penetration of weapons is to be allocated to SACEUR, but those are quite secondary matters.
What matters, and what matters most, is that N.A.T.O. is fulfilling its primary purpose of preventing the invasion and, therefore, the destruction, of Western Europe. The answer to the fuller use of the N.A.T.O. Alliance lies in two things—the fuller use of the Council by the allies and, as I think the right hon. Gentleman indicated yesterday, the fuller use of the nuclear committee both for nuclear planning and targeting and for nuclear matters in general.
To sum up this section of what I have to say, I think that it is the policy of nuclear strength, above all, that is keeping the peace, but that the policy of conciliation is showing results in the marked reduction of tension between the Soviet Union and Western Europe. The House will have marked the contrast between the urgent, strident demands made on the allies on behalf of Germany and Berlin only two years ago—I remember that very well, because I had to sit with Mr. Rusk at a very dangerous time, when Russia was threatening the Berlin Corridor—with the treaty signed the other day with the so-called D.D.R.
There is less tension, too, between the Soviet Union and the United States since the withdrawal from Cuba. The House will have noted that, though the Cuban crisis is only a short distance in time away, the United States is today selling wheat to Russia. We have been able to agree the Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty for banning tests in the atmosphere, there is the outer space agreement and the agreement on fissile material. We have been able to develop Anglo-Soviet trade to quite a significant extent and, as I have said, we have been able to increase the official and social contacts between our two countries.
The hopeful thing is—and this is my strong impression—that both in the Soviet Union and in the West we greatly prefer today to yesterday in our new relationship. But, on the evidence before me, I
1314
think it is legitimate to conclude that we are through what I might call the first stage of the trial of strength with this part of the Communist world. A condition of success was that the nerve of the West should hold during the cold war, and it did.
This is no time to weaken the deterrent, but it is time to negotiate, and that, rather than going for the increase in the number of conventional forces all over the world, is the use that I would make of the umbrella of the stalemate of nuclear power. So I claim that we can say that the results of strength and conciliation and diplomacy are with us today, and not the least of the credit for this goes to the British who have played a large part in the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
A number of speeches, particularly from hon. Members opposite, encourage me to say a word about psychological diplomacy when we are dealing with the Russians. We in the West—I think it is worth noting this—are in a hurry for results; the Russian is never in a hurry. I can give several examples of this out of my own recent experience. I have constantly pressed the Russian leaders to tell us what is needed to complete the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, that is to include the underground tests as well. I have suggested to them—I think that this will seem a sensible suggestion to the whole House—that Russian, United States and British scientists should get together to tell the Governments what is required for this purpose. They will not do so; and they will not do so because they are not yet certain that they want it. When the time does come probably we shall have to move with speed, but it is not yet; they take their own time.
It is the same with disarmament. We have come forward with many ideas on disarmament, many of them very reasonable, but so far the Russians have countered them all with the objection that they require inspection—the two right hon. Gentlemen will have found this—and that they equate inspection with espionage. This is an excuse—it is not the reality—and it is, I believe, because, faced with the Chinese, they cannot make up their mind yet whether they want disarmament at all. I judge in this context that, with his problems at home and the difficulties that he has with his friends, Mr. Khrushchev has not a great deal of time to spare at

1315
the present moment for long negotiations with the West, and it would be very unwise, if this is so, to press him. Nevertheless, we must use diplomatic channels to the full and have our plans ready in case the opportunity arises.
Under the general heading of disarmament, and in another field to which the hon. Member for Leeds, East referred, I should like to say a word, because I made a suggestion in a speech at Toronto not long ago and invited the Russians to explore the possibility whether they could not join with the United States and the United Kingdom in joint action to assist the developing countries of the world. I made this suggestion because they are neither members of the International Bank—I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition knew this when he was in Russia. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Well, the right hon. Gentleman did know.
I was going on to say that they are neither members of the International Bank nor are they members of the International Development Association; they are members of neither. I think that it would be a very good thing if they would come into these international organisations and therefore show that they could give disinterested aid to the developing countries.
Mr. H. Wilson: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his interest, I may say that he will find this very fully dealt with in the epilogue to a book called "War on World Poverty", which I wrote in 1954.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman always remembers all that he has written and all that he has spoken and is always able to produce it at very short notice. I am making here a serious point that I believe that it would be a good thing—I hope hon. Members opposite will not dissent—if the Russians were able to join with the United States and ourselves in these international organisations which give aid.
I shall not dwell very long on the individual possibilities in the field of disarmament, but there again, following the right hon. Gentleman's visit to Moscow, I must say that he is less well informed
1316
than I think he is if he is really convinced that the initiatives with which he returned are new. I read them through and through, and I really cannot find any that are new. I would never belittle any suggestions, but I know the frustrations in this field of disarmament. Let me say that, as far as nuclear free zones for Africa and South America are concerned, this, of course, has been before everybody for a very long time, and there is no obstacle except that the countries concerned cannot agree whether they want them or not. This is true of the Middle East. I am perfectly willing to consider if we can restore in this field some kind of regulation of armaments into the area. We tried to get it once, but Israel and Egypt managed to find ways of buying arms.
Then again, there is the question of the bonfire where we could burn obsolete weapons and, we would hope, be able to add to the obsolete weapons some coming off the production lines; but the difficulty here is that it has always broken down, and this, I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, is because the Russians will not allow inspection, and if there is not inspection in this field we cannot possibly tell when weapons are burned that they will not be replaced from the factory the next day.
There again, if I may take another question which he raised, and that is the earmarking of troops for the United Nations, I would only say on this that, in a way, our British troops are always earmarked in that they are trained and at short notice, up to date, ready to be moved to any part of the world at any moment. Should we agree that the purpose of the United Nations is one that we would wish to see fulfilled, we can immediately supply the Secretary-General with troops on any occasion.
Mr. Arthur Henderson: What is the objection to Her Majesty's Government following the example which has been set by the Canadian and other Governments, not specifying particular units necessarily, but giving an undertaking, in effect, to the United Nations that a certain number of troops would be available on call without specifying particular units?
The Prime Minister: We have told the Secretary-General that there will be

1317
no difficulty about this if he wishes to have troops on any occasion. What I am doubtful about is earmarking in the sense of saying that they will come out of the German theatre or some strategic reserve at home or from some other geographical area. That I am not sure is a good thing to do.
The right hon. Gentleman is interested in this. I think there are two suggestions which are worth following up and which we have been at a long time but, nevertheless, on which I hope there might be progress one day. The first is observers against surprise attack. This is practical. It also has the attraction that it is, I think, the only way to create enough confidence to arrive at the thinning out of forces at some later date. I think that if there were observers in position that people on both sides of the frontier would begin to say, "Why do we need so many troops here for so long?" But one cannot get a definite plan unless one first has observers in position. The difficulty about that is that the Russians equate anybody in East Germany with spies.
On non-dissemination, whatever the real Russian reason is for rejecting non-dissemination arrangements, I think that it cannot be because of the possibility of a M.L.F. at some future date. I think that the right hon. Member for Smethwick agreed yesterday that the only result of the M.L.F. would be that with this proportion of the deterrent one would have more fingers on the safety catch than one has at present. I tried in New York to persuade Mr. Gromyko to go ahead. I believe that we must go to the Russians and ask them seriously to consider non-dissemination arrangements and that if the multilateral force ever came into reality we could fit the multilateral force into the arrangements, because there is no question of the multilateral force disseminating nuclear weapons to other people.
I cannot leave this question and the subject of the United Nations without one reference, and I regret it, to the speech of the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) last night. He accused Britain of paltry, ridiculous, mean contributions to the United Nations. I seldom in politics feel the emotion of anger, and I hoped never to do so with the right hon.
1318
Gentleman, but I feel bound to support the protest of my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew), because the right hon. Gentleman was grossly unfair to this country.
The assessment of our contribution to the United Nations is 7·58 per cent. of the total United Nations budget. Except for one item, out of 22, on which the right hon. Gentleman picked, the United Kingdom contribution exceeds what is required of us by a very considerable percentage. It is sometimes up to 15 per cent. The one on which the right hon. Gentleman picked was the contribution to U.N.I.C.E.F., which deals with assistance to children. We cannot feel guilty as a party and as a Government on this when we take into account, for instance, United Nations operations with which we did not wholly agree and when I tell the right hon. Gentleman that for the Congo operation, for example, the United Kingdom produced £10 million and that the total annual contribution of the United Kingdom to the United Nations runs at around £24 million a year.
In the one case on which the right hon. Gentleman picked, I agree that our percentage is 5·2, but when his party was in power the contribution which it gave in 1949–50 under this head was nil. It rose to £100,000 in 1950–51, and then it was reduced to nil again in 1951–52. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] Right hon. and hon. Members opposite cannot possibly fling in our teeth that we are ungenerous to the United Nations, and the most charitable thing that I can say about the right hon. Member for Derby, South is that he had a very bad off-day.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: Far from withdrawing, I repeat that a country like Great Britain, which is the second richest in the world, ought to be setting up much higher standards for other nations. Many of the contributions which I quoted last night, like the £35,000 for U.N.E.S.C.O. for education in Africa, are a shameful sum. I believe that the Prime Minister is quite wrong in saying that our total contribution is £24 million; it is £12 million, and much of that goes towards

1319
liquidating responsibilities which we had in the past. The sum of £2 million goes to help Arab refugees. Who ruled Palestine for 30 years?
The Prime Minister: With all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, he has his figures wrong. The 12 million that he is quoting are 12 million dollars and represent the contribution which we made under the United Nations bond system. The annual sum which we expend towards the United Nations budget is £24 million or thereabouts each year.
There is only one other subject arising from speeches made from the benches opposite yesterday on which I should like to say a few words, and that is the question of South Africa. Our emotions on this side of the House—and I ask hon. Members opposite to credit us with reasonably human emotions—are just as deep and just as concerned as theirs with the enforcement of the policy of apartheid under arbitrary laws. But when we come to ask what in addition to what we are doing in protest we can do, I find myself very largely in agreement with the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson). I do not believe that we should employ sanctions, and for the reasons which he gave. I hope that his Front Bench will be as explicit as he was. [Interruption.] I am glad to hear it. I am glad to know that the Socialist Party does not believe in sanctions.
Mr. H. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman talking about economic sanctions?
The Prime Minister: When they talk about an arms embargo on South Africa, I beg hon. Members to remember, before they commit themselves, that an arms embargo would be the end of the Simons-town Agreement. I beg them to ask themselves, if we get involved in a war in the Persian Gulf or in the Indian Ocean or in Malaysia, how we can get to that war if the Suez Canal is closed, which is likely, without staging posts for the Navy and the transport routes which we have today under the Simonstown Agreement.
Mr. Wilson: I shall be dealing with this if I catch your eye tonight, Mr. Speaker, as I have dealt with it many
1320
times. Will the Prime Minister now give the House an assurance that during his premiership no arms have been shipped to South Africa other than those specified in the schedule to the Simonstown Agreement?
The Prime Minister: We do not export arms to South Africa, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, which we think will be used in any way—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—I am asking the right hon. Gentleman before he goes the whole hog and says that his party will put an arms embargo to consider the strategic position and strategic interests of Britain.
I shall not deal with Europe today. I have answered so many questions on this, and there is no political issue now. I am doubtful whether there will be a political issue in the next Parliament. I tell the right hon. Gentleman that when he goes thrashing about outside on this question he is beating a dead duck and I do not think that he will get a quack out of it.
On the evidence then, I think that we are justified, looking at the international situation as a whole, in being optimistic, but we must guard against euphoria. I have always thought that one of the great tragedies of history was that the beginning of the Communist Revolution coincided with the emancipation of the colonial territories, because Communism became identified with the struggle for self-determination and independence when in fact, of course, it is the biggest suppressor of both. I think that as the situation has worked out the feature which is prevalent today, as far as the independent countries are concerned, is not so much of allegiance to Communism as to nationalism. I follow the point very closely made by the right hon. Member for Smethwick yesterday and touched on by the hon. Member for Leeds, East, which has been very much in my mind for a long time.
The danger is that, as we move out of the Soviet-Western conflict, Russia, because she cannot drop the habit of subversion, and China, because she desires it, and both because they are rivals for leadership in the world and see in subversion a card which may be advantageous to one or the other, will play this card ruthlessly and cause total confusion in Asia, and perhaps in Africa. But the danger of this is,

1321
perhaps, not quite so much nationalism as this total confusion which will result in a racial division of the world.
I think that there are plenty of people abroad who would delight to see such a division and would do a great deal to promote it. I have been thinking in particular—[An HON. MEMBER: "South Africa."] Certainly South Africa is one country in which the habit of apartheid contributes to this racial feeling. I have been thinking in particular of the poor nations and the coloured nations as against the rich nations and the white nations, but that is not the only division. There is the division between negro and Indian, which we see in British Guiana, and between Arab and Jew, which we see in the Middle East. This is why this rash of trouble, to which the hon. Gentleman referred and of which he saw a lot in his tour of the Far East and Middle East, is so deeply disturbing to anyone who looks to the peace and stability of the world.
The hon. Gentleman asked the question, perhaps a little rhetorically, because he answered it a good deal in his speech, why do we send our own men overseas? The answer is because we have treaty obligations in S.E.A.T.O. to keep the stability of that area, and because we have obligations to Malaysia. He did not actually say because of our obligations, but it is really because of our defence obligations that we send them overseas. We have an obligation to Malaysia and we have a rather more unwritten obligation to the members of the Commonwealth who ask for our help.
Finally, we are seeking a political settlement with Nasser, and it should be possible to make a political settlement for him to withdraw from the Yemen; and with Sukarno it ought to be possible to make a political settlement so that he ceases confrontation on the frontiers of Borneo. Unless we get these settlements there is no alternative but for British troops to be out in the field defending our obligations and helping those to whom we have a duty. Of course, as long as they are there, we shall see that they get the tools for the job, including the helicopters about which the hon. Gentleman spoke.
While we must, of course, do our duty, we must use our influence to divert these
1322
national racial energies from sterile strife and try to produce co-operation for the common good, and Britain is particularly well qualified for this rôle. In Geneva we made a supreme effort. When hon. Members see the White Paper which my right hon. Friend is going to produce they will realise that we made a crucial contribution persuading the developed countries at Geneva that they must cooperate in trade policies that well help the economies of the developing countries both to expand and to earn; and to do something to persuade the developing countries that they must produce a climate of confidence if investment is to thrive in their countries.
We have made a promising beginning and will follow this up in the United Nations. At the end of a long meeting—and I think that we should mark this in this foreign affairs debate today—the gain was that North and South produced a practical programme of work rather than airy resolutions which sound well and mean nothing.
Finally, we have, of course, the Commonwealth, and again I think that we should do well to mark that the Commonwealth consists of coloured and white, of rich and poor, and of the powerful and the weak. It consists of countries with experience in harmonious living, and on this we must build. We will try very hard to do so at the coming Prime Ministers' Conference, attempting to increase our service to each other and, collectively, to give an example of stability and peace to the world. I hope that the July meeting will result in definite progress in this way.
I have spoken of broad things. All of us are searching for peace in a more peaceful world. While there is danger, strength will be maintained. I repeat that we cannot escape the fact that it is the nuclear weapon which holds the peace, although I balance that by saying that the spirit of conciliation today is abroad. To those who say that Britain has lost her way, I would say that Britain has played a crucial rôle in lessening the East-West conflict and is playing a crucial new rôle in averting conflict between North and South, the developing and the developed. These are our aims. If people are searching for a new rôle for Britain, this is it.
5.26 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn: One of the hopes which we all had in the House as we contemplated the advent of this foreign affairs debate was that we would get away from the over-simplicity of analysis which has characterised debates on foreign affairs ever since the cold war began and try to analyse in depth the real changes which have taken place in the world since the last major foreign affairs debate in the House.
I can only say, after listening to the Prime Minister, that he has produced more and more dangerous new myths than any we had in the past. Somehow, the cold war having subsided, the right hon. Gentleman confides to the House that it was his steadiness of nerves during the difficult years that frightened the Communists and he is happily now able to report to the House that the troubles are over. If we keep nuclear weapons which the Americans will supply to us—and which we do not produce ourselves and cannot even test ourselves—then in this way the peace of the world can be maintained.
I think that the House will lose a great opportunity if it limits itself to the narrowness of the analysis which the Prime Minister has given. If he underestimates Mr. Khrushchev as much as he under-estimates my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, it is very unlikely that he is as frightening to Mr. Khrushchev as he thinks himself to be. Did the right hon. Gentleman by any chance tell Mr. Khrushchev that the Russians were not in the World Bank?
The point is that there have been some fundamental changes, and I want to begin by trying to give a slightly different angle on the way in which these changes have developed. The first one is, of course, that the two colossi have become very much greater relative to the other countries of the world and much more powerful than they were only five or 10 years ago. The argument which the Prime Minister produced, that it was the possession of British nuclear weapons that brought the Russians to the new sense of reality of the world situation, is, I think, to overestimate the rôle of British nuclear weapons.
1324
The fact of the matter is, and nobody is surprised at this, that for this Government to maintain a nuclear posture they have to go to the United States. They claim that in getting the Polaris submarines from the United States they will establish independence from the United States. I only want to put to the right hon. Gentleman a point which ought to be in our minds today and which we all very much hope will not take place, the possibility that Senator Goldwater might become President of the United States in the autumn. Is it then conceivable that a British Conservative Government, depending on President Goldwater for the supply of Polaris submarines, would be able to pursue an independent rôle at all in world affairs? Of course not. Indeed, President Goldwater's first ultimatum would be, "Do not send the buses to Cuba or you will lose your Polaris submarines." The realities of the world make it clear that the two super-Powers are themselves maintaining the balance and that whether this country has Polaris submarines is largely irrelevant to it.
The second point is that the détente of which the Prime Minister spoke is more than a détente. It is a recognition by both the United States and the Soviet Union of a common interest in certain clear items of policy. One is the test-ban agreement. That is why it was brought about, because it was in the interests of the United States and the Soviet Union. Similarly, the non-dissemination of nuclear weapons is in the interests of both those countries. It adds point to the rather curious postscript to the Cuba story that the Americans may be a bit safer if the Russians stay in Cuba than if they leave, because the Russians have to some extent exercised a moderating influence on the excesses of the Cuban Government.
The next development which the Prime Minister should have mentioned is that the break-out of argument in the Communist bloc is paralleled by an equally fervent argument in the Western world as well. If Mao Tse-tung does not accept the Test Ban Treaty, neither does Senator Goldwater, who voted against the Test Ban Treaty in the United States Senate. A man who is capable of coming as close as he has done to the Republican nomination for the

1325
American Presidential elections this year is a force to be reckoned with.
What we want to know from the Government, and what we have not had during this debate, is a clear indication of the way in which they intend to strengthen the forces inside both East and West which are now dedicated to developing the detente and carrying it a stage further. I greatly regret that the Prime Minister has not done what his predecessor did in March, 1959, when he went to Moscow. It was not popular with the Americans at the time, but the Russians recognised that the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) was trying to use British influence. It had electoral advantages for him as well, but he was genuinely trying to use influence to develop and build up the possibilities of detente.
When the Prime Minister talked about polycentrism, he confined himself entirely to Eastern Europe. We are all familiar with the story of Eastern Europe—of Tito's break with Stalin, the Polish moves to liberalisation and the interesting potentialities of Rumania. The Prime Minister, however, was able to make a foreign affairs speech without once mentioning General de Gaulle. The blindness of the British Cabinet towards the realities of French policy in the world astonishes me, particularly when I remember that the Foreign Secretary yesterday, in one of his many bromide phrases, said that although we were kept out of the Common Market, we were doing all that we could to see that policies between this country and Western Europe did not diverge. There is hardly any point on which British and French policies are in agreement. Polycentrism in Western Europe is infinitely as interesting and as important in the development of British and world policy as the polycentrism in Eastern Europe.
If we really are to look at the new situation of a Western Alliance that is no longer united in this sense, or an Eastern Alliance that is no longer united, we must consider the implications of alternative courses of policy. It is all very well the Prime Minister saying that the multilateral force does not involve dissemination of nuclear weapons. He had that wonderful phrase which he used in another connection about our tactical
1326
nuclear weapons in Europe being kept under what he called the key-of-the-cupboard theory—a nursery tale analogy. If, however, the Russians are convinced that the multilateral force means a German-American nuclear force which makes it that much easier for Germany to acquire control of nuclear weapons, they may well take the view, which the Americans took at the time of Cuba, that this goes a stage beyond what they are prepared to tolerate.
The Prime Minister makes a great mistake if he thinks that there would be a wide body of British or Western European—and certainly not Eastern European—opinion that would be prepared to see a German-American multilateral force set up against bitter Russian opposition. The Russians would have the opportunity in Europe of conventional pressure of the kind that the Americans had around Cuba at the time of the 1962 crisis. Nothing of this was said by the Prime Minister. All we had was merely an assurance to the Russians that if they signed the anti-dissemination agreement now, they need have no anxiety about the multilateral force.
The question of the Oder-Neisse line was not mentioned by the Prime Minister, and yet anybody who knows anything about the fears of the Eastern Europeans recognises that the anxiety that the Poles and the Czechs have about the feeling of the Germans that they must get back to their pre-war frontiers is one of the greatest forces which keep the Eastern countries under the Russian umbrella. Although the British have been very negative upon this, General de Gaulle has said that for his part the Oder-Neisse line represents the eastern frontier of Germany. That has not prevented General de Gaulle from entering into close relationships with the West Germans.
One of the causes of paralysis in our European policy is still the fear that if we do anything it might weaken our capacity to get into the Common Market. I could understand this in the past. A rabbit sitting in the way of a motor car might be paralysed by the headlights, but the Prime Minister must be the only rabbit who is paralysed by the tail lights of a receding vehicle. It would be different if British entry into the Common Market were to become a reality, but the

1327
Prime Minister said that it was a dead duck. I did not know whether that was an autobiographical phrase.
What is wanted in Europe is a British initiative. Whatever one may say about General de Gaulle—there are many aspects of his domestic and foreign policy which I do not like—he dreams of a world in which Europe holds the balance, of the Six dominated by France, led by General de Gaulle. That is his view, and I understand it. But his policy in Asia and in relation to China, however, is a lot more realistic than that adopted by our Government, who on this issue, as on many other issues, are ambiguous.
The third development which the Prime Minister never mentioned in his analysis of the world was the growing importance of the non-aligned States as a force in their own right at the United Nations. It is a great mistake to think that this is the end of the anti-colonial battle, because the anti-colonial battle is not yet finished. One of the consequences, however, of the deadlock in the Security Council was that power passed increasingly to the General Assembly.
If I try to analyse the point in time at which the Prime Minister began to have doubts about the United Nations, it would be the point at which, owing to the arrival of new members of the General Assembly and the failure of the Security Council to be effective, power began to move more and more towards the General Assembly. That was not the idea of the United Nations that the Prime Minister had in mind.
It is interesting to see the way in which the controversy about the United Nations has altered since the war. At the end of the war, it was thought of as a continuation of the League. It was primarily a white organisation with an international civil service in the League tradition. We hoped that it would work better. That was what Lord Avon meant when he spoke about "humanity's last hope". The United Nations has, however, evolved in a quite new way. At every stage, the Government have been stepping back stage by stage reluctantly accepting the development of the United Nations.
The things that the non-aligned countries care about in the world are the remaining anti-colonial issues. Southern Rhodesia united the whole of Africa
1328
against the stand that our Government have so far taken on the Southern Rhodesian issue. Issues like the British support for the French in the Algerian war are the issues that the non-aligned countries care about. They reflect their anxieties and their power through the United Nations. The racial issue, to which the Prime Minister referred—in Mississippi, South Africa, Rhodesia, Notting Hill and Smethwick, and all over the world—is the predominant one. It is on these issues that the British Government are, at best, neutralists.
One cannot justify the continued supply of arms to South Africa without, at the very best—but this is the kindest thing that can be said—being neutralist on the question of human rights in terms of colour.
The next great development since the war has been the way in which the United Nations has been able to make itself felt even against a major Power. It was not the United Nations itself which stopped the Government at Suez, but the United Nations was the only body capable of taking over from us. Hon. Members opposite say that the United Nations has never scored any successes against the Soviet side, and they cite its ineffectiveness in Hungary. I am not so sure about that. The Soviet Union suffered enormously as a result of its actions in Hungary in 1956. It also suffered a major defeat on the troika. Mr. Khrushchev had set his mind on three Secretaries-General and came up against the united opposition of the non-aligned world and had to capitulate in favour of their pressure.
The United Nations is a reality in the world today, and one of the tragedies about the British Government is that they do not see the opportunities which the United Nations offers for the exercise of British diplomacy. They think of the United Nations as being a separate and outside body and not a forum where British ideas and initiative can be well deployed. I say nothing against Sir Patrick Dean, but nobody in London takes very seriously a permanent civil servant, sitting at the end of a telephone line, in the United Nations. We take him seriously in the sense that he is a man capable of transmitting messages both ways, but not as a man capable of negotiating in the sense in which the

1329
Foreign Secretary will be able to negotiate when he goes to see Mr. Khrushchev in Moscow this summer. Would it be as good to send Sir Patrick Dean on this mission which the Foreign Secretary is to undertake? Clearly not. Why? Because what is required is negotiation and discussion at the highest level.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, in saying that he will send a Cabinet Minister to the United Nations, will be doing the first essential. He will be putting there a man whom other nations will wish to consult about all the issues which come before the United Nations.
The second thing is to strengthen the Secretary-General. If we do not recognise fully the rôle of the Secretary-General, the non-aligned countries do. One of the things which impressed me most when I visited New York not long ago was talking to an official at the Secretariat about the hot line. It is well known that this country wanted to be on the hot line. It presented its V-bombers and said, "Look, we have a ticket on the hot line between Moscow and Washington", and was disappointed to discover that this nuclear ticket did not get us an extension on that telephone line. However, if we had used our influence to try to get the hot line to go through the Secretary-General's office, we could have succeeded, because the non-aligned countries want to be consulted if ever the world reaches the brink. If Britain, which had its own V-bombers, had thrown itself in with those countries which wanted to see that there was some international check on the last words of goodbye said between the White House and Red Square, it would almost certainly have succeeded.
I now turn to the question of peacekeeping and the mockery poured by hon. Members opposite on the idea of the British Navy having a special United Nations rôle while, at the same time, entering into discussions on a multilateral mixed-manned nuclear force. What is wanted is a mixed-manned peace force—that really would make some sense—in which the United Nations adopted the multilateral idea in order to make available forces which were genuinely international in character. Until such a thing can be developed, the next best thing is that Britain should make available on a
1330
much more regular basis forces which might be needed for peace-keeping operations. Hon. Members opposite say that the United Nations acts too slowly. If our forces were always available, it would be able to act almost as rapidly as if we were acting on our own.
The final function of the United Nations is to provide a place where people can talk. The Prime Minister has rather played down the idea of regular Summits, saying that they do not do any good. Listening to debates here, one sometimes wonders whether they do any good in the sense of reaching agreement. But the continual dialogue, argument and discussion and getting to know each other is one of the most essential developments in international affairs as the United Nations increasingly becomes a sort of Parliament.
I come now to the rôle of China. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) referred to it in his speech. If ever there was a time when the Chinese issue had to be looked at seriously, it is now. Neither the Prime Minister nor the Foreign Secretary, in their analyses of the new factors in the world, took account of the enormous power of China in her own right. They said that there was a split between Russia and China and seemed inclined to the view that this was all to the good and that in a way it made things easier for us that there should be disagreement between them. But what is important is not only the disagreement but the fact that China should be beginning so clearly to stand for certain things in the world.
I hope that we do not under-estimate the Chinese: revolution and its technical capacity for development in the way in which the West consistently underestimated the Russian revolution from 1917 onwards. I was in America just after the first Russian Sputnik went into orbit. It was like a hammer blow for America to realise that Russia had the technical Capacity to put a satellite into orbit. Why? Because the American Press, for years, had convinced the American people that Communism was not only evil but was also a total economic failure, and they were not led to appreciate what was happening.
Although China has many difficulties, such as crop difficulties, and has not

1331
developed as fast as she would have liked and is losing her help from Russia, we should not under-estimate her capacity to be a major force in a short period of time. The challenge to Russia is partly ideological. It is also about co-existence and whether it is possible to co-exist. But no one seems to ask why China doubts the value of the coexistence policy. The answer is that she does not enjoy the benefits of coexistence. There is that part which the British Government recognise as part of China, Taiwan. The Cairo Agreement, signed by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), said that Taiwan should be returned to China. If there is an American force there maintaining a defeated army in a civil war, why should the Chinese believe in the possibilities of peaceful coexistence?
If we allow China to be isolated, what possible advantage can that bring us, even if we accept—and I do not accept it—the crude language of the Prime Minister about fat Communists being better than thin Communists? Does not this apply to China too? Or does China come into a separate category? What justification is there for maintaining a much more comprehensive embargo list against China than against the Soviet Union? The only answer is that the British want, on this issue, to keep in step with the United States.
I think that it is time that we tried to help the Americans to overcome some of their own mythology about China. Perhaps one of the best ways to do it would be to refer the Americans to the State Department memorandum handed to President Truman when he took over the Presidency in 1945. He quotes it in his book "Year of Decisions". This is what it said about China:
"Political. Towards both the immediate objective of defeating Japan and the long-term objective of peace and security, we seek to promote establishment of a broadly representative Chinese government which will bring about internal unity, including reconcilement of Kuomintang-Communist differences, and will effectively discharge its internal and international responsibilities."
That was the first reference. But there were other references, too, one of which said:
1332
"We are also seeking to bring about vitally needed Chinese military unity through integration of the Communist forces with those of the National Government."
This was the view of the American State Department and of President Truman in the summer of 1945.
It still remains true that, unless we can, somehow, solve this problem of Taiwan and bring China into the United Nations, she will remain outside threatening the whole conception of United Nations solutions and winning increasing support from those nations which, because of their population explosions and difficulties of development, are doubting whether they can develop by peaceful means.
It is therefore urgent that at the General Assembly this year the British Government should make more than just friendly noises about China and should try positively to campaign to bring her in to her rightful place.
There is a very good prospect of this for two reasons. One is that General de Gaulle has now had the sense to recognise the reality of China—and he has done it the whole way. He has a Chinese ambassador in Paris and a French ambassador in Peking. We do not have an exchange of ambassadors because we have a consul in Taiwan. We heard yesterday from the Foreign Secretary that the consul is accredited to nobody. He is there just in case people want to pop in and see him. Yet for that reason we lose the enormous opportunity and advantage which might come from full diplomatic relations with Peking at ambassadorial level.
How do we solve the Taiwan question? The Chinese themselves reject the concept of two Chinas. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East mentioned the move for self-determination for Taiwan, but we must not forget that if there is one thing on which Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Tse-tung agree it is a refusal to subscribe to any idea that Taiwan does not belong to China. They agree that there is only one China, made up of the mainland and Taiwan.
What makes the position doubly difficult, of course, is that the Americans are very deeply committed to the Chiang régime and are reluctant to abandon their support at this stage. However, we are fortunate in the fact that the meeting

1333
of the General Assembly has been postponed this year until after the American presidential election, so that it will take place when President Johnson is beginning four years of office and when the Americans will be escaping from the electoral dangers which surround any discussion of China. It may well be that a solution might be found along the lines of that found in 1945 for the admission of the Ukraine and White Russia to the United Nations.
Under such a solution, a representative of the Peking Government would displace the representative of Chiang Kai-shek at the United Nations and consideration could be given to the idea of Taiwan occupying a place in the General Assembly pending a solution. Its position would be similar to that occupied by the Ukraine, which is a part of the Soviet Union and, as such, is represented by the Soviet delegate, but also has some independent representation of its own. I would think it unlikely, if the Peking Government were admitted to the Security Council, that Chiang would for long wish to hold out against some sort of settlement with the mainland.
If one looks at this situation from the point of view of British self-interest, I find myself, in looking to the year 2,000, asking whether we shall be any safer in the world if China is still isolated from the world community. By then she will have a population of 1,500 million. She will have her own nuclear weapons, since she accepts every one of the present Prime Minister's arguments about the need for nuclear weapons. Will it be a safer world in the year 2,000 if we merely repeat the follies and mistakes that we made in our relations with Russia in the early revolutionary years when we deal with China as she struggles with her immense development programme?
The new situation in the world opens up new possibilities and new dangers. What depressed me about the rather complacent analyses we have had from the Front Bench opposite—the Minister of State's was best of the three but his was the exception—is the failure to identify major issues and the rôle Britain should play. Should we not be trying to strengthen the East-West détente? What is our line to be on the dominating race issue, especially in South Africa? What are we to do about the United
1334
Nations in order to make greater use of the forum to bring knowledge, wisdom and understanding to bear on the problems of the world? And what relevance has a British Polaris to any of this? Finally, what possibility is there for a British initiative to bring China into the United Nations this year?
I think that there has been a measure of agreement across the Floor of the House in this debate. The extent of the disagreement which exists lies at least as much in a differing analysis of what is happening as in recommendations as to what should be done in any area of policy. Despite the new look given by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, I suspect that they do not understand or even wish to understand the full significance of all the changes that have taken place in East and West. They do not understand the new freedom movements that have developed from the anti-colonial struggle which evoked the most bitter opposition from hon. Members opposite. They always cheered when they learnt of British troops going in to restore order and of political leaders being gaoled—men who later were accepted by the Government and appointed Prime Ministers of their countries.
On the benches opposite there is lack of sympathy with the new world and certainly a lack of faith in Britain having any influence without having the power to use or having available the Polaris missile. It is the fundamental defeatism of the party opposite that distresses me. When we on this side see the great opportunities in the world that exist for this country and urge the great rôle that Britain can play, we repeatedly find hon. Members opposite coming back to the same insistent plea that Britain is finished without an American-supplied nuclear weapon. That is really the heart of the Government's foreign policy. I do not accept it for a moment.
The traditions of this country are those of compromise, improvisation, energy, adventure and many other qualities which we can bring to bear in the new world. Our parliamentary traditions alone give us a special advantage in the United Nations, which is an embryonic Parliament of man. All these are opportunities that we want to see exercised and utilised. I find little in the speeches from right hon. and hon. Members opposite to

1335
suggest that they have any faith any longer, even in themselves.
5.57 p.m.
Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: The ordeal which faces anyone speaking for the first time in this place is well-known. It is not made any easier for me by having the additional problem of following in the wake of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). I know that the House traditionally affords indulgence to newcomers, and I ask that this should be granted to me today. In exchange, I realise that I must avoid all matters of controversy, although this will not be easy in view of some of the views I have heard expressed.
The subject I wish to cover primarily is the peace-time use of our Armed Forces as instruments of British foreign policy. But before dealing with this I would like to say a few words about the constituency which I am so proud to represent. Winchester was for centuries the capital of England, long before London had any such aspirations. Winchester is the seat of a bishop: it has a world famous cathedral: it is the headquarters of the Green Jackets Brigade and the Hampshire regiment; and it has the oldest public school in England. Moreover, Winchester is an entirely non-controversial public school because it has provided many distinguished Members of this House, on both sides.
Many of my constituents are smallholders, horticulturists, dairy farmers, retail shopkeepers, young married couples in need of homes, or retired people living on small fixed incomes. Many of these people, as the House knows, have their own special difficulties in these days which one might expect would diminish their interest in foreign affairs, and preoccupy them to some extent, but I do not find this to be the case. In parenthesis, I think that this may call for a tribute to my distinguished predecessor, Mr. Peter Smithers, who has now gone on to fresh fields in the Council of Europe.
I think that this interest in foreign affairs may also call for a tribute to the Press, radio and television. If this tribute is deserved, I am very happy to pay it, but with particular reference to their news and documentary features.
1336
To come to what I have to say about the employment of our Services in support of our foreign policy, what are our principal assets here? First and foremost, there are the sterling qualities of the British fighting man. There have been no fewer than 49 occasions since the war when British soldiers, sailors and airmen have been called in to restore that very basic commodity, law and order, in various parts of the world, all too often in conditions of danger, heat, discomfort and embarrassment. Tribute to these men has already been paid by several hon. Members in this debate.
Our second asset—and very valuable it is—is the support which we still receive from many countries of the Commonwealth. Perhaps Australasia provides the best example: Australian and New Zealand forces have worked, and still work, very closely with our own in the Far East. I like to recall the words of Mr. Robert Menzies, as he then was, at the time of Suez, when he said, in the House of Representatives in Canberra:
"Well, I do not know too much about this; but if Britain is in it, we are in it."
I am bound to say that that was a great deal better stuff than one heard from—perhaps I should say, some individuals in this country at that time.
In India and in many other Commonwealth countries I have found a wonderful reservoir of good will towards the British Raj. In a remote mountain fort on the North-West Frontier, an officer of a Pakistani regiment showed me with great pride an entry in the visitors' book which read:
"Archibald Wavell, Captain. 1912."
Field Marshal Lord Wavell now lies buried in the cloisters of Winchester College
Turning to Africa, at the end of 1961, I took my ship to the Tanganyika independence celebrations in Dar-es-Salaam. Since then, Tanganyika and other countries in East Africa have asked for, and have immediately received our military help in times of temporary difficulty—what the hon. Member for Leeds, East called times of political instability. The fact that these requests were made to the British, of all people, is not only the highest compliment which could possibly be paid to us and to our colonial

1337
record, but is also a very great tribute to the generosity of thought, the com-com sense and statesmanship of some of these newly independent régimes. We might have to help these people again, and I hope that we shall be very ready to do so.
Our third asset in this context is the strength of our various international alliances, such as N.A.T.O., CENTO, S.E.A.T.O., and ANZAM. In particular, great progress has been made by the military committees within these organisations, and military co-operation and understanding have reached a level in this way which would hardly have been considered possible 10 or 15 years ago.
Fourthly, it is fair to say that our Service Ministries have been very forward-looking in developing new methods and new equipment. The concept of commando carriers landing Royal Marines by helicopter in cold war conditions, the re-equipment and the great efficiency of Transport Command of the Royal Air Force, and the jungle fighting techniques developed by the Army, as seen in Malaya and Borneo, are all excellent examples of what I mean.
To these concrete assets it would be fair to add two others, namely, British experience and "know-how" in this sort of arena, and the overwhelming material power of our firm friends and close allies the United States of America. I sometimes think that one of the things that Western man least clearly understands about Eastern man is the presence of physical fear in many parts of the world today. We supposedly civilised nations have advanced beyond the stage at which if we disliked, say hon. Members opposite, we would go at them with half a brick; but that condition still prevails in many parts of the world: and there is no doubt that many individuals and many small countries appreciate the friendship of a strong and well-armed Power.
I have discussed our assets in these cold-war conditions, but there is another side of the balance. I believe that we have some shortcomings, and that there are some ways in which we might be more constructive and more imaginative. As we have heard from both sides of the House, there are plenty of constructive tasks to be performed. I know
1338
that many commanding officers find this a perplexing problem, because they realise that the threat against which we should be preparing is not the straightforward threat of armed aggression—practically nowhere is that the case—but the threat of subversion and political infiltration.
For instance, I once heard a commander-in-chief make a most urgent plea for a radio station in Aden so that we could stand up for ourselves and counteract the poison which, as we all know, has been disseminated from Cairo Radio for so many recent years. What a curious thing it is to hear the generals and the air marshals—leaving the admirals out of it for a moment—asking not for more jets or more tanks, but more radio stations! Unfortunately, the ledgers in Whitehall have appropriate columns for tar and hemp, and muskets and bullets, but not for radio stations.
This whole subject of the deployment of our resources in the cold war is most difficult, but the great gleam of hope lies in the reorganised Ministry of Defence. This now has the opportunity of bringing all three Services together in their organisation and training, and of shaping our expenditure to meet those threats which really face us—perhaps most important of all by gearing our military activities much more closely with those of the Foreign Office, the Commonwealth Relations Office and the B.B.C.
This being now in progress, I am convinced that the Armed Forces of the Crown will continue to play a most effective part as instruments of our foreign policy, and in helping to preserve the peace of the world.
6.8 p.m.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: It is my pleasure as well as privilege to offer not merely my own congratulations but, I am sure, the congratulations of the whole House to the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles) on the admirable maiden speech which he has just delivered. He has delivered it with care; he has delivered it with preparation; he has delivered it with lucidity; and he has avoided what was obviously a great temptation to throw a few half-bricks himself, resting in the confidence that by tradition of the House no one could throw the other half back.

1339
We have listened to the hon. and gallant Gentleman with very great interest and respect and we shall be happy to hear him again. Whether we shall hear him again in a debate of this nature in this Parliament may be a little doubtful, but perhaps next time he will prepare himself on some other subject which we might be able to get around to before next October.
I should like to offer an observation or two of my own. I do not propose to do what it is so tempting to do in a foreign affairs debate, and what I suppose in the more important speeches is esential in such a debate, namely, to go to the different points of conflict, or to conflicting policies all over the world, and advance my own notion of how they should be dealt with.
I am sorry that the Prime Minister left the Chamber before I had time to say this. I found his speech a most depressing affair. I think that it is almost humiliating to have the Prime Minister of this country making a long and important speech, in what he presumably thought was an important foreign affairs debate, when he was obviously so ill-equipped and ill-prepared to do it. It was about the most politically illiterate speech that I have heard on this subject for many years.
But that, perhaps, is natural, because this really is not a foreign affairs debate in Parliament at all. We have a Prime Minister who has never really been a Prime Minister, speaking on behalf of a Government who very shortly will not be the Government, and are not really functioning as a Government now, in a Parliament which very shortly will not exist. The only real comfort to be derived from the Prime Minister's speech is that when next we have a foreign affairs debate, at any rate he will not be expounding the views of the Government.
It is fashionable nowadays to say, and it has been said repeatedly in this debate, that the world is virtually at peace, that we do not really have to worry any more, that there is an uneasy equilibrium, which, nevertheless, will be maintained, that a nuclear war which may have been a real threat at one time has long ceased to be a threat, that the areas of disagreement are narrow, and
1340
that all can be tided over, or compromised, or dealt with in some fashion so that no longer need we fear a world conflict, and that a world war will never happen again.
The Prime Minister himself gave us the most implausible reasons for taking that view. He seemed to be saying that the real reason why the world is at peace, and will remain so, is that the Soviet Union has so many nuclear weapons. He did not say it in so many words, but that is the clear implication of saying that peace is being preserved by an equilibrium, by a balance of power, by a balance of forces, and that one must not disturb the balance of those forces. Of course, there could be no balance of nuclear forces if the Soviet Union had not got any. What he is really saying, therefore, is that our reliance on the preservation of peace depends on keeping the Soviet Union strong.
I do not share that view. It does not seem to me that peace can be preserved in the world by a balance of forces, or by a balance of armaments. There has never been an occasion when an armaments race to maintain the balance, with first one side and then the other seeking to get the edge on the other, has not ended in what was for that day ultimate catastrophe, and there is no reason to think that the same causes will not produce the same effect, although it may be delayed a little by the greater forces available and by the greater arms to be used.
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that wars have been caused by an imbalance?
Mr. Silverman: I do not think so. I do not know of any case where that has happened.
Sir F. Maclean: What about 1914 and 1939?
Mr. Silverman: That was not an imbalance. There was a Conservative Government in power the whole time. The House of Commons voted every penny that they wanted for every rearmament plan which they had. It may be that hon. Gentlemen opposite can say that we opposed them, but, if we did, we opposed them ineffectively. They were

1341
not without money. They were not without rearmament powers. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that they wasted them, he is throwing against them a greater indictment than they deserve. The greatest imbalance in my time was when the United States had nuclear weapons and the Soviet Union did not.
When people talk about the danger of the Communist threat to use nuclear weapons and that kind of thing, it is at least fair to remember—and historically accurate to remember—that the only country which has ever used nuclear weapons in the history of mankind is the United States of America, and that it used them without notice and without warning on two open, unarmed cities, against an enemy who was already defeated, and was at that moment suing for peace. Those are the facts which we must remember.
What are the causes of war? They lie much deeper, as we all know When people say that we are not in any danger of war now, they must be saying, at least by implication, that there are no deep-seated causes of conflict or dispute in the world. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said that British forces were engaged in warfare all over the world to a greater extent than can be recalled by any of us in peacetime. That is the fact.
In Europe, there is an uneasy balance, based on an abnormal situation which everybody hopes will last for ever, and which nobody will ever disturb. It is an abnormal situation. One cannot really suppose that there is any normality, or any stability, or any permanence, in a Germany divided in this way, but divided particularly in such a way that half of one of its main cities is deemed by one side to be part of a country whose border is 200 miles away. I am not suggesting what the solution is; I am only saying that some day there must be one. It is an abnormality which is fraught with continual danger, and it is a task of wisdom to make every possible approach to see whether there is some way of normalising the situation.
Viscount Lambton: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that our forces should be withdrawn from every sphere in which they are engaged?
Mr. Silverman: I am not suggesting anything at the moment. I am only inviting the noble Lord and other hon. Members to realise that a divided Berlin, 200 miles inside a divided Germany, is not a situation on which one can rest hopes of peace in Europe. Some day something will have to be done. In those circumstances, is anything done to tackle the prbolem of pretending that West Berlin is part of Federal Germany, knowing perfectly well that nobody in the world, except Federal Germany, accepts that, and knowing that there is no legal or juridical sanction or basis for it?
This is particularly so when the Federal German Republic is still disputing the frontier even of a reunited Germany. Supposing it had its way and could incorporate East and West Germany in one nation, where would the frontier be? There has been no intimation by those who most insistently claim that East Germany is part of Germany, and that the Federal Government is the Government of Germany, that if they had their way the frontier of that reunited Germany would not remain a source of ultimate conflict and disturbance in Europe.
Ways of dealing with this problem have been suggested. I am not discussing them now. I am only saying that, given that situation, anyone who regards peace as secure, stable or inviolable merely because his country has atomic weapons, is living in a fool's paradise.
What about other parts of the world? Does anyone think that the Middle East is an area of peace, stability and security? It can flare up at any moment; perhaps it will. Let us go to the Far East. Here we have a situation in which war is at any moment inevitable.
Mr. Gordon Walker: Inevitable?
Mr. Silverman: I should not have said "inevitable". I should have said that war is at any moment possible.
People talk about the way in which to deal with the situation—about who will yield, and who will make agreements, and they ask how it can be dealt with by neutralising it. Nobody has defined what neutralising it means, or what being neutral means, in those circumstances. Nobody remembers that

1343
if the 1954 settlement at Geneva had been supported by all the prestige and ability of the United States of America there would have been no trouble in that part of the world today. The only reason why the attempt at neutralising this part of the world failed is that although the United States undertook that it would not seek by military means to upset it, it nevertheless would not support it. It did not support it, and never has supported it.
Let us go to other places. In South Africa we have a situation that could set Africa ablaze from end to end if the policy there is not ended. Let no one think that this would be a small or localised war, or that we could contemplate it with any kind of equanimity.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Wedgwood Benn) talked about what the situation might be in the year 2000. I do not know; in all probability I never shall know. But I am familiar with the situation not 50 years' hence, but 30 years' back, and when I consider what the state of Europe and the world was in the first four years that I spent in the House of Commons, and the debates we had then about international affairs, I find very little to distinguish that state of affairs from the present one. If we are not careful to realise that this is so we may find that this is the inchoate stage of a third world war, instead of the heralding of a millenium of peace—because then, too, we had quarrels, disputes and difficulties all over the world, in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Abyssinia, Albania and Spain.
The present Foreign Secretary was then Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and when, the other day, he was called upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) to defend his record, and asked whether he had not an uneasy conscience about it, he said "Not at all", that what he was doing was trying to keep this country out of the Spanish war. He kept this country out of the Spanish war, but what kind of war did he land us in as a consequence?
Throughout all those years people were saying, as they are saying now, "Do not worry. War is unthinkable. War will never happen. War is too destructive. War is too murderous, too dangerous. We
1344
shall find a way through. We will make an accommodation here, and a compromise there, and a forestalling action somewhere else. We shall have a disarmament conference now and again, at which, at any rate, we shall keep people talking. Nothing will happen." The result was that it did happen. I do not see any great distinction between the state of Europe and the world in the early 1960s and what it was in the middle 1930s.
What is it all about? The noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) made an extremely interesting speech yesterday, in which he said that the world was fighting a kind of civil war. He did not use that expression; he quoted Abraham Lincoln talking about civil war in the United States of America. He appeared to forget that Abraham Lincoln, at Gettysburg, was speaking 100 years ago. and that he would come out of his grave and make another speech if he could realise what his successors, as the spokesmen and leaders of the great Republican Party in the United States, are saying today—because, whatever may be true of other men, in the real civil war that is going on in the world, Senator Goldwater is on the wrong side, and we shall be his allies if he becomes President of the United States.
Mr. William Yates: Why should one presume that Senator Goldwater stands any chance of success at the convention?
Mr. Silverman: I do not know whether he will or will not, but he may. At the moment, the chances are that he will. This is being said by a confident and, at the moment, a leading candidate for Presidential nomination in the United States. It is not possible to say whom the American people will elect.
What is the real civil war? The noble Lord said that the world was divided between those who believed in personal freedom and those who did not. That is not the real division. We are in an age in which one world is dead and another world is struggling to be born. This was true 50 years ago as much as it is true today. In all these widespread sources of conflict all over the world it is not only a question on which side nations will align themselves

1345
in the eventuality of war between the two main blocs. It is not only a question of defensive arrangements or military possibilities.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East was quite right in saying that it was a great mistake to suppose that all these conflicts were inspired or originated by outside Communist forces. By what are they originated? What is it that these people who are in revolt want? What is it that they want in Indo-China, in Vietnam and in Laos? What is it that they want in Africa? They want to be free of the old world. They want to be free of the feudal land system and from the tyranny of landlords. It is not only a question of their country being backward and that they need aid from the well-to-do nations. Naturally, we should help because we are rich and they are poor. That alone would entitle them to our assistance.
It is also a question of what keeps them poor. Why are these countries underdeveloped? Because their social forces have never been developed; because their natural resources have never been developed. They are struggling for freedom. What Abraham Lincoln said which is apt to our present situation was that it is impossible for a world to remain half-slave and half-free.
No doubt one of the causes for alarm in the Western world is that these countries have accepted assistance, not always altruistic assistance, from Communist countries. But why should not they accept such assistance? If they are struggling to overset the internal systems that deny or are inconsistent with any kind of social justice, why should not they take aid from any country in the world which is ready to grant it? Is there something so very wrong, wicked or shameful about accepting the assistance of a Communist country? We did not refuse it.
The Soviet Union was our ally and we were glad of that alliance in the days of our Gethsemane. If any of these people wish to bring what they call social freedom and justice—we may not call it that—to their country, and can get no assistance elsewhere, why should not they get it from China and the Soviet Union? Believe me, there is no difference on this between the Soviet Union and China. We know why not. It is because it alters
1346
the balance of force and we must not alter the balance of force, because on the balance of force, the Prime Minister tells us, rests the peace of the world.
Ought not we to have made clear long ago that we are on their side? When my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East talks about the Yemen and Radfan, does not he realise—I am sure that he does—that it is the social causes behind this unrest which are the important things, and not whether Nasser has or has not troops in the Yemen? My hon. Friend talked about the security of oil supplies; and certainly they must be secure, and we must pay for them. We do pay for them. But have we no interest at all in what becomes of the money? So little of it is spread among the inhabitants of the country whose material resources are represented by the oil.
There are things about which we cannot be neutral. We can be neutral between two armed forces in the event of an imminent conflict—and the more countries which remain neutral in such a situation the better for them and for the world—but we cannot be neutral, between right and wrong. We cannot be neutral between the oppressed and the oppressor. We cannot be neutral between justice and injustice. We cannot hold the balance even between the two. There is a natural weight which comes down. Neither can one for long go on, as was once said of a liberal English writer,
"Playing on your fuddled fiddle somewhere in the muddled middle."
The Labour Government which came to office in 1945 had an opportunity to do something about this, when all the world was looking for a new lead, and most of it was looking to the Labour Party in this country to give that lead. We did not give it. Between 1945 and 1950 the Labour Government, so far as their domestic policies were concerned, were a remarkable Government. They were constructive, progressive, and far and away the best Government that this country had ever had—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, certainly they were, and I always said so. If they had matched their international policy to the springs which motivated their domestic policy, the world would have been a different place today, and my right hon. Friends would never have lost office.

1347
By the time we next nave a foreign affairs debate in this House it may be that my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) will be the Foreign Secretary. Certainly, he will be a member of a Labour Government. So, I have no doubt, will my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East. My appeal is not to this Government, it is not to those hon. Members ranged behind the Government, some of whom will be back in the next Parliament but who will be sitting on the benches on this side of the House. They have nothing to do with it any more. They have had 12 years in which to do something with the situation, but everything that they have touched they have made worse—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes. The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations travels about the Commonwealth and sets everybody by the ears and then comes back and stands at the Dispatch Box and demands that my right hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench provide the plan which he has not been able to imagine for himself. That has been the Government's record. Nothing that they have touched has been improved, abroad or at home.
I hope and beg that in approaching this question—I know that there are difficulties, that we cannot always job backwards, or begin from the beginning, and that we shall be faced with the embarrassments and inhibitions which have been historically produced during the last 20 years—my hon. Friends will approach it in a new spirit. No one expects them to overturn things at one throw. But we all hope that the problem will be approached in a new spirit; that they will not hold the reins or even the balance, but will assist the new world in its birth pangs.
6.39 p.m.
Mr. Iain Macleod: The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) started with some graceful words about the maiden speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles). With that part of the hon. Member's speech at least, I should like to concur. We all agreed very much with what he said. We were very glad to listen to my hon. and gallant Friend. From the philosophy which permeated
1348
the rest of the speech of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, and particularly his concept of the balance between war and peace, I think that I found myself very nearly as distant as did right hon. and hon. Members on his own Front Bench.
Considering that this is a two-day debate, and on the Adjournment, I think that it has been a coherent one in that the number of themes have been limited. I should like to start, as so many others have done, by saying a little about Aden, both because it is the most topical of subjects because of the conference, and also because it is a complex in which defence, foreign affairs, Commonwealth relations and many other subjects meet. The hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) today, when talking about Aden and, more widely, about the reasons generally why we had bases abroad, said that in his view the interests of the free world were the main reasons for our being there. I agree very much with him. I think this comes far in front of any considerations about oil or even of our relations with the rulers of those territories, although of course we have treaties with them which we must keep.
I am not sure that the argument, so much developed—I am not talking so much now about his speech—is soundly based. I think many people feel that, because of the swift and successful exercise in East Africa when we were called in by newly independent States, a new rôle has come for Britain, envisaging this country as a sort of combination of "Dixon of Dock Green", on the one side, and an amateur fire-fighting organisation on the other coming to the aid of those countries at their request. The idea of this bush fire theory will prove, I think, in time to be unsound.
For this reason the two most remarkable things about this exercise in East Africa were that we were called in and then went out. In many ways it will be the second which will be held to our credit. As Mr. Mboya said, it required a great deal of courage on the part of the newly-independent countries to call in British aid just at the moment when they were freeing themselves from so many years of colonial rule, but, having done the job, we went away again. Everyone knows that if the Russians are called in to a territory they do not go away again. There are people who, perhaps

1349
unfairly, would say the same about the Americans. I am convinced that even after the exercise is itself forgotten it will be remembered that we did a job in the service of those countries and then left.
Is it right to expect this sort of situation to go on? If perhaps a newly independent country—or a country which has been independent for some years, for I am looking a little ahead—is involved in a tribal dispute, will we wish to go in and take sides? It does not seem at all likely. The hon. Member for Leeds, East said he thought the Aden base was essential to the part we played in Africa and the Middle East. I have a feeling that is more important still to the rôle we have to play in Asia. The Leader of the Liberal Party said yesterday that we first went to Aden to protect from pirates our routes to the Far East. That, of course, is true in part. The other reason is that we went there to use Aden as a coaling station. If for "sea" we now read "air" we are coming closer to the original concept of the Aden base.
The Leader of the Opposition, when he came back from Moscow, said that the Opposition would reserve for this debate some of their comments on Aden and the Government's attitude towards the Federation itself. The right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) touched on this yesterday, but there was one thing missing from his speech. That was a condemnation of President Nasser for the subversion which in my view is the true threat to Middle East stability. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition would like to touch on this matter when he speaks tonight.
I want to go back to a very fine maiden speech made yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths). He mentioned in particular, when considering American thinking at present, the name of Senator Fulbright. I think he had in mind a speech which many hon. Members will have read, made on 25th March this year, in which Senator Fulbright drew a distinction between the myth and the reality in American policies. He allowed himself to think what he called "unthinkable thoughts" about a number of subjects including Panama, China and most particularly, Cuba.
1350
It was interesting that as he thought these thoughts and carried his argument to a logical conclusion, he happened to move nearer to the point of view which we in this country hold. This was true of Cuba and also of China. I wonder whether there is a lesson for us in this, because if it is possible to move towards American policy I believe that this is a great gain for the future of the alliance.
I think that we might permit ourselves for a moment to think unthinkable thoughts about President Nasser. I share the feeling—some people would call it phobia—that many people have about President Nasser. I remind the House, before anyone gets up to remind me, that I was a member of the Cabinet at the time of Suez. I agree, incidentally, wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), who said yesterday that President Nasser's policies are inimical to ours. If we consider President Nasser's position and if we follow Senator Fulbright's example we need not find this an obstacle to the attainment of our objectives.
I want to read one sentence which, I think, is the key sentence from Senator Fulbright's speech. Perhaps hon. Members listening to me as I read will translate, that is to say, they will substitute for "Cuban Communism", "Arab nationalism", for "Cuba" read "the U.A.R." and for "Castro" read "Nasser". This is what Senator Fulbright said:
"I think that we must abandon the myth that Cuban Communism is a transitory menace that is going to collapse or disappear in the immediate future and face up to two basic realities about Cuba: first, that the Castro régime is not on the verge of collapse and is not likely to be overthrown by any policies which we are now pursuing or can reasonably undertake; and second, that the continued existence of the Castro régime, though inimical to our interests and policies, is not an insuperable obstacle to the attainment of our objectives."
There are many Nassers, the Arab Nationalist and also the man who lives on the continent of Africa who can hardly have been exhilarated by Mr. Chou En-lai's comment that revolutionary principles were exceedingly good in Africa and also the believer in his own form of system who cannot have liked hearing Mr. Khrushchev saying to all who listened to him that Communism

1351
was for them a quicker way home. If we allow ourselves to let the same thoughts that Senator Fulbright had about Cuba at least pass through our minds about President Nasser it may be that in the fullness of time we shall move closer to American policy in the Middle East.
The next subject on which I want to touch is the subject of the M.L.F. The right hon. Member for Smethwick dealt with this to some extent yesterday and I think he called for a clear statement of Government policy. I have no doubt that that statement must and should await the experiments now being carried out, particularly the extremely interesting one on the U.S. "Biddle". In that, contingents from America, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece, Turkey and this country are joined. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that there are differing opinions on this side of the House. Of course there are. This is such a big issue, such a complicated issue, the kind of issue in which defence and foreign affairs are completely intermingled, that it would be strange if there were not.
My own view is that on balance—and I have moved increasingly towards this view—the decision to take part was right and, secondly, there is much more to be said on the political side at least for the development of this force than I thought when I first started examining it. When I was in the United States almost a year ago, at a time when we were contemplating taking this decision, and therefore at a time when I had long discussions with members of the Government in the United States, I remember using a phrase to President Kennedy which, I think, was first used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) about democracy—a phrase which the hon. Member for Leeds, East, may recall that I used on another occasion. I said, "Like democracy, it seems to be the worst of all answers except for all the others."
We must agree that there is a dilemma, and perhaps there is a solution. I should like to draw the attention of the House to a speech—a very important speech—made by Mr. Gerard Smith, Special Adviser to the Secretary of State, at Annapolis on Wednesday, 22nd April.
1352
This is how he stated the dilemma, and I do not think that anyone would disagree with him:
"How can the United States share strategic deterrent responsibilities with its N.A.T.O. allies without promoting independent national nuclear forces?"
Here, at least, I think that we can all agree. He discussed three possible answers. One of them would be the provision of M.R.B.M. He dismissed that almost at once, and so do I.
There remained the question of increased consultation, which in basis is what the Labour Party would like to see, and the M.L.F. This is what he said about consultation:
"If consultation about Alliance strategic forces remains imperfect, it is not for lack of good will or machinery. Rather it is because the consultation is one-sided. So long as consultation means other countries advising the United States about what to do with American strategic power, to which they have made little contribution, I have the feeling that it will, while useful, remain limited in effect. The effectiveness of consultation is apt to be in direct proportion to the degree of participation, by the consulting nations, in the operation they are consulting about."
In other words, if one can reduce that to an epigram, "No consultation without participation ".
We on this side of the House have always thought that it could not make sense to try to barter a weapon—particularly a weapon which was denigrated in the way in which the Labour Party have denigrated our deterrent power—against increased consultation when one is oneself not a participant. If the Labour Party will not take that, as I think, simple point of view from these benches, perhaps they will take it from an official speech from a senior American adviser.
Mr. Michael Foot: What deduction does the right hon. Gentleman think that President de Gaulle or the German Government would draw from the point which he has just made?
Mr. Macleod: It is exactly that point which arises. I did not want to read all the quotation, but immediately after the sentence which I quoted Mr. Smith went on to say:
"Moreover, participation in nuclear matters within Europe is unequal. Some countries already have national nuclear weapons programmes. … For all these reasons, European leaders are likely to find nuclear consultation

1353
with the United States an inadequate substitute for a rôle of active participation in the operation of strategic weapons."
There is this problem still, because I think that the right hon. Gentleman is right when he says that there is a strong feeling in America that they intend 8 possible to go on with this project. I think that we must judge our participation and the weight of opinion which we give to the military considerations against what is, to me at least, the overriding importance of trying, if we can, to keep this great issue one of agreement between America and all her allies.
Lastly I should like to make a brief reference to the journey which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition—I am sorry that he is not here; I gave him notice—and the right hon. Member for Smethwick made to Moscow. I am sure that both of them will take my remarks in the amiable sense in which they are made, for the last thing I want to do is to stop them from making those robust speeches on foreign affairs which have aroused such enthusiasm below the Gangway. All these remarks, particularly some of those by the Leader of the Opposition, pay a double dividend; they are useful abroad and they madden at least 50 per cent. of the Labour Party.
I see. that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has returned. [HON. MEMBERS: "Say it again."] I was encouraging the Leader of the Opposition in well doing and particularly in the robust speeches which he has been making. For example, he made an extraordinary statement about our using our heaviest tanks in Cyprus and urged other countries to do the same. This is probably against the United Nations directive. The heaviest tanks which we have are in B.A.O.R. and could scarcely be available. For the purpose which he had in mind, bulldozers plus covering fire from armoured cars, which are in Cyprus, are infinitely preferable. Heavy tanks would ruin the roads—and the heavy tank is not a very suitable vehicle for conciliation. Apart from that, it is a splendid idea.
Mr. H. Wilson: I am sorry that I was out. The right hon. Gentleman has had his fun. As for the suggestion being contrary to the United Nations directive,
1354
I said that we should immediately raise with the United Nations the need for a new directive to enable these things to be done. [Laughter.] This is really not a laughing matter. If the right hon. Gentleman will read the whole of that speech in context—a few hon. Members opposite might take the smiles off their faces—he will realise that what I was referring to was the fact that British troops were in cross-fire between Turkish and Greek frontiersmen. I said that it was important that they should be given any kind of protection, by armour or any other means which would save their lives, so that they could do the job. Would the right hon. Gentleman address himself to that point?
Mr. Macleod: Of course. I have the quotation here if the right hon. Gentleman would like me to read it to the House. He directed this point specifially to road blocks and gun emplacements, and so on. I was merely pointing out that there are already in Cyprus far better methods for dealing with this sort of thing.
The moist interesting proposal of the right hon. Gentleman's 10 or 11 or 14, or whatever it was, in the Moscow visit, was that for annual Summits. It was not answered by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister this afternoon, perhaps because Shakespeare answered this very point 400 years ago. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman, when thinking of bringing together the great men of the earth to this sort of consultation, remembers the boast of Glendower and the retort from Hotspur. Glendower said:
"I can call spirits from the vasty deep."
Hotspur replied:
"Why, so can I; or so can any man:
But will they come, when you do call for them?"
Mr. Ellis Smith: That was 400 years ago.
Mr. Macleod: And very good sense, too. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to continue his voyage, he might go to Colombey les-Deux Eglises and ask that particular spirit there.
It is not surprising, with these sorts of views, that when the Leader of the Opposion and the right hon. Member for Smethwick went to Russia, President Khrushchev treated them in much the

1355
same way as President Johnson treated his beagles. He lifted them by the ears. They then come back to tell us his reaction to a series of proposals. We find that Mr. Khrushchev warmly agreed with all the proposals that suited Mr. Khrushchev and rejected all those which did not. It is not a very remarkable conclusion, it was not worth a journey, and it is just one more proof that when the Leader of the Opposition comes on to the stage of world affairs he treads those boards always as a party politician, never as a statesman.
Mr. Gordon Walker: Did the right hon. Gentleman prepare that part of his speech before he knew that the Foreign Secretary was going to Moscow?
Mr. Macleod: I did not prepare that part at all.
7.1 p.m.
Mr. Desmond Donnelly: I am very glad to have the opportunity to follow the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), though I thought that the latter part of his speech obscured the admirable first half. I must confess to the House that the other day I went to sell an article about the Middle East to an admirable periodical presided over by a distinguished editor. To my surprise, I found that the editor was in entire agreement with my views about President Nasser. I was glad to hear those views reinforced today in such revealing terms.
During the course of this debate there have been a number of speeches. Some have dealt only with specific issues and some have attempted to achieve some form of grand design. There was, for instance, the remarkable maiden speech of the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) yesterday. I should like to add my congratulations to those which have been given to him from both sides of the House. I would like to follow in the general pattern of the wider grand design. Perhaps I may say a few words which are rather wider than those which have been uttered so far in the debate.
A great deal of the discussion has been about the situation as it is today. Very little has been said about what the situation might be tomorrow or what steps the British Government of the day
1356
should be taking in the next Parliament. Therefore, I would like, first, to say a few words about the basic principles of British policy and the limitations of each, secondly, a few words about the conditions in which this country must operate in the next decade and, thirdly, about certain steps that we should be considering and the general pattern of our effort for the future.
First, the basic principles of British policy. Earlier this afternooon my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) spoke about the United Nations. I should be the last to criticise the basic concept of the United Nations, but I think that in any consideration of British policy being based upon the United Nations we must remember always the limitations of the United Nations as well as its advantages. The last two or three years have shown very clearly the grave limitations on the efficacy of the peacekeeping police operations of the United Nations. This is for a variety of reasons. It is partly because of the administrative arrangements. It is partly because of the political climate in which United Nations police forces have to operate and the kinds of countries which are the only acceptable countries to send forces for many of these operations.
But in the last analysis it comes down to the actual structure of the United Nations. A central theme of British policy in the years ahead must be directed to getting this structure right. The fact is that the present administrative control of the United Nations, resting as it does in the present arrangement of the General Assembly and the Security Council, is unsatisfactory for all the tasks which the United Nations is asked to discharge, except one, which is that it is a deliberative assembly which acts as a meeting place of the countries of the world.
The present arrangement—the voting arrangement, the present loading of the voting arrangement, the present membership of the United Nations—is an unreal factor in world affairs. On any of the major issues with which we have been confronted during the last few years, the classic example of which was the Cuban operation in 1962, the United Nations itself ceased to be an effective instrument at a time of crisis. It was by-passed by the Major Powers. This is not a criticism of the concept. It is an acceptance

1357
of reality; and a recognition of the conditions by which British policy must be guided in the future. We must face the fact that in present conditions a country of a few hundred thousand people, newly emergent with its independence, which has the same voting rights and the same authority as the United States and the Soviet Union is an unreal factor. It is as unreal in the world pattern of democracy as the system of this Parliament in the days of the Rotten Boroughs, before the 1832 Reform Bill.
Our second basis of foreign policy is the Commonwealth, but the Commonwealth that we knew no longer exists. The hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles) referred to how the Australians used to say, "If Britain is in it, although we do not know too much about it, we, too, are in it". That concept of community in the Commonwealth exists no longer. We are now a Commonwealth which has shed the membership of the South Africans. It is a Commonwealth which still retains the membership of Ghana. I personally do not accept the principle of double standards in international affairs. An inhumanity to a man done by a black man is just as bad as when it is done by a white man.
Therefore, we must be realistic about the lack of political efficacy of the Commonwealth as it stands today. The Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference, which is to be held shortly, will have to face many of these problems. Whilst this country must preserve and conserve that which is good and rescue all we can, we must also recognise the limitations of basing our foreign policies on the wider myth of the Commonwealth, because it is basically a myth.
There is the third aspect, which is our Anglo-American Alliance. The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds spoke about it, as did the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton). Other references have been made to it. This special relationship is passing, if it has not passed already. The Anglo-American Alliance stands or falls on the contribution that Britain makes to the alliance and the importance that the United States attaches to the British aspect of the alliance. The special relationship which we had through vital years of history is now
1358
changing and much of the emphasis is passing within the Western Alliance in terms of American evaluation to other countries, due to the increasing importance of Western Germany.
Many of those who, I regret, on the extreme Right and on the extreme Left, decry Anglo-German friendship fail to recognise that one of the most important ways of retaining our influence within the Western Alliance is by enhancing that Anglo-German friendship rather than by denigrating it. We must work within this wider framework.
There is, finally, the whole concept of Britain's relationships with Europe. I am disturbed in this period of hiatus in British politics when we tend to avoid many of the basic arguments because an election is facing us. We are too often concerned with electoral advantage and too little with the longer-term national interest or national perspective. I am concerned about the anti-European attitude of those on the extreme Left and Right. This country is part of Europe. It is inconceivable that we could be other than in association with Europe if we are to exercise an important influence in international affairs.
These are the wider thoughts, but we must consider in what kind of world we are operating. Reference has been made to the ending of the cold war, but it is premature to say that it is ending. There have been traumatic changes, as the Prime Minister said in his wide-ranging speech. These traumatic changes have been partly internal and partly brought about by external events. The consequence of these is that, from the point of view of the Soviet Union, over a period of time there has been a gradual easement and acceptance of the second half of the twentieth century. The Soviet Union has begun to emerge into the realities of the modern world.
This has led to conflicts with China. The present conflict with China in itself has compelled the Soviet Union to consider her position in Eastern Europe and to grant greater easements and independence in Eastern Europe. There is a direct parallel between the Chinese relationship with the Soviet Union and the Soviet relationship with Marshal Tito. When Marshal Tito has been persona grata in Moscow,

1359
the Chinese have been persona non grata and vice versa. The reason is that Marshal Tito is the outrider, the focal point of Eastern Europe, to which they can turn. In all these happenings there will be many changes. Therefore, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) when he said, "I believe in looking into the future, but I do not believe in looking further than I can see".
The first possibility in the Eastern European scene is that we have great potentialities and opportunities of trade, new relationships and contacts.
But, next, we face a serious problem of containment in regard to China. If one looks down the map of South-East Asia and at the unstable political situations in the Far East one can see the possible dangers, stretching into the early 'seventies, of the expansionism of the Chinese in South-East Asia and the possible dangers to Australasia as well. This may be one of the major problems which may face us in future. These are the problems to which we in this House, in the next Parliament, will have to address ourselves in considering British policy in the Far East.
These are part of general patterns which exist. When we come to specific issues, one can consider the situation in Europe, in the Far East, or the situation in the Middle East. Perhaps I might borrow from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Enfield, West and look for a brief moment at the Middle East.
A good deal has been said about Aden and the internal arrangements of the South Arabian Federation. I do not propose to deal with the internal arrangements of the Federation. By an accident of history and the circumstance of geography this country has been left with an important political position, even today, in the Persian Gulf—or the Arabian Gulf, as some people like to call it. It is easy for us to decry the importance of the British position from 5,000 miles away, but if one looks at it from inside—and different parts of the world look different from where you stand—one gets the proper picture. As the Foreign Secretary said yesterday, the British landings in Kuwait in 1961 may have been decisive in preserving the stability
1360
of the Persian Gulf, certainly for three years, perhaps longer.
This happens to be an area which is the central reservoir of all the basic energies of Western Europe. It is possible that Britain might withdraw. That has been considered by a number of people and many people have said that we should concentrate entirely on commercial interests and forget about everything else. The truth is that the case for the British presence is not related to the price of oil or its actual extraction. It is related to the political stability of the area. It happens to be a highly valuable area because of the great prizes available.
If Britain were to withdraw we would find a power vacuum which could be dangerous to world peace. The Kuwaitis might be seized by Iraq, as General Kassim threatened in 1961, or Buraimi might be seized by Saudi Arabia. Bahrein might be seized by Persia. A British withdrawal there in the present circumstances of instability—and I am by no means saying that we should stay there for ever; I would be the last to suggest that—would represent an abdication of responsibility and a grave dereliction of duty by this country. It could lead to the first volley of the next Sarajevo.
Our interest there is not British in the narrow sense. Nor is it even a Western European interest. In the long run it is a generally Arab interest, too, because, as is recognised, many of the responsible rulers in the area—and this is nothing to do with the social arguments about which we may be divergent in our views, or the progress most of us want to see—accept that this is their interest.
This brings me to Aden. Like many other hon. Members, I have had the opportunity to visit that area during the last few days. I had expected, on arriving there, to find a beleaguered base, like Cyprus was in 1958. I found, instead, an air-conditioned, relaxed community. I had expected to find in the Radfan a large-scale war comparable with the number of newspaper column inches devoted to the subject here. Instead, I found a small operation, a difficult one, but fundamentally small, on the pattern of the old North-West Frontier. I had expected to find a large-scale political move for the removal of the British base. Instead, I talked to a wide spectrum of the People's Socialist

1361
Party, the ruling sultans and others, about the British base, and I found nobody who advocated the immediate removal of the base.
This is all in direct contradiction to many of the thoughts one reads in many newspapers and the climate which is hotted up in many circles. Of course there are problems in Aden, social and constitutional, but, fundamentally, the Radfan fighting has nothing to do with the Aden base. The constitutional talks have nothing to do with the Radfan fighting because they were decided upon beforehand. And the Aden base has nothing to do with either, or the price of oil, as has been suggested in some irresponsible Sunday newspapers.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: The Observer.
Mr. Donnelly: Yes, the Observer.
The plain fact is that the problem is much wider. It is more important and more serious than these narrow considerations. The truth is that the problem of Aden is not basically military. In the last analysis it is a problem of will—and the answer must be given here, in London. I repeat, this is one area where the British will still counts and where a British decision must be one of determination and no vacillation. In addition, we must have wider thoughts in other respects.
Now I should like to return to another subject for a future defence debate. It is outside the basic terms of reference of this one, but I wonder whether the next Parliament will be able indefinitely to discharge the obligations we are now considering without some form of selective National Service. My own view is that it is not possible. If we propose to play the rôle in the world that I would like to see, I do not think that it can be done without National Service. We in this House have to accept the responsibility, and have the courage to say so. There is no point in evading this issue—it is far more important than any question of votes and elections. Much more important than winning elections is governing the nation.
This brings me back to the first thoughts that I uttered. They are very much on the lines of those of the right hon. Member for Enfield, West. We can
1362
do certain things, in a limited form, up to a certain point, in distant areas, but we can never do them alone. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the multilateral force. I am aware of the military arguments against that force. I am aware that the efficacy of the multilateral force is questioned, but the right hon. Gentleman advanced a very powerful argument indeed.
In my view, any British Government which stayed outside the multilateral force, if it were to come into being, would be a Government acting in opposition to the long-term national interests of the country. It is a watershed of decision as important as the Common Market. We cannot afford to be outside again. We must have the perspicacity to take the long view.
These are the general thoughts. Perhaps I might conclude with one other thought which is related to this. If I may detain the House with it, it is a personal story. Some time ago I visited a friend who lives in the Wiltshire hills. He is a former Member of this House, whom we all know and like regardless of party views. It is one of the better things of one's life that party issues depart and personal friendships remain, because, at the end of the day, personal friendships are more important than any other consideration. What matters is one's friends, and little else.
As I was leaving my friend, I drove down into the village, and turned my car to drive further westwards to Wales. In the village I passed the statue of an earlier Foreign Secretary, a man of an earlier era—basically a Foreign Secretary, although a Royal one—and a man who came from those parts, also. On the statue were inscribed some words. Where they come from, I do not know, but they are not a bad text for the next Parliament, and for the future direction of British foreign policy. They read:
"For him, a sinking nation's fame to save,
To foster latent worth and patriotic zeal
And build on virtues based, a nation's common weal."
This may be the last foreign affairs debate of the present Parliament. "For him a sinking nation's fame to save" is not a bad motto for hon. Members of the next Parliament to consider in the years ahead.
7.25 p.m.
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: I have listened with interest to yet another robust speech from the benches opposite, and I have listened with some measure of agreement. This is not a defence debate, so I will not give my reasons for agreeing with what has been said by the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) on the subject of manpower and the need for a measure of selective service. I have given my reasons so often in the last seven years that I need not repeat them now.
I thought that the hon. Member also had some very pertinent things to say, not only about the need for British troops in a great many different parts of the world but about the changes that there have been in the world and, in particular, in the Communist world. The first of those changes is in the character of the Communist bloc. It is a bloc no longer. It has ceased to be completely monolithic. Cracks have appeared in the monolith. Deviations have occurred to left and right. Revisionism is rampant.
There are now two "Romes" in the Communist world—Peking and Moscow—and satellites all over the world have a choice of which to turn to and, by the very fact of that choice, have acquired a certain, though limited, independence. Polycentrism, instead of being a rather obscure theory of the Kremlinologists, has become a reality, and what has been happening in Rumania in the last few days is an illustration. No wonder that the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) was greeted, in his own words, as some kind of Rumanian "Beatle"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I was only quoting the Daily Herald which, I thought, should be a reliable source of information.
The second change has been in the character of the Soviet régime itself. It is a change that has been reflected to a greater or less extent in most of the other Communist countries. Stalin believed in taking no risks. He allowed no freedom in the Soviet Union. He allowed no contacts with the outside world. He shot first and asked questions afterwards.
1364
When I first went to Moscow, 27 years ago, I found a reign of terror unparalleled in the whole bloodstained history of Russia. Fear and suspicion seeped in everywhere. It was the reign, as Khrushchev himself has said, of a homicidal maniac, and one cannot really better that description. Foreigners, in particular, were "bad news." To have any dealings with a foreigner was the biggest risk a Soviet citizen could take.
That is not the case today. The Soviet Union is not, of course, a free country, and the standard of living is not high by Western standards, but, by comparison with Stalin's Russia, there are enormous changes. The average Soviet citizen does not go in fear of his life, and an even more important change is that, within strict limits, he has a chance to express his views and his personality. Finally, and I think most important of all, he is permitted, up to a point, to have indirect, and sometimes even direct, contacts with foreigners and with the outside world.
"Under Stalin", Khrushchev said some years ago, "the whole machine was beginning to seize up." Partly deliberately, and partly because he could not help it, Khrushchev has changed all that. He saw that they could not operate a modern technological society with a lot of cowed, brainwashed helots. He took a tremendous gamble, and relaxed the pressure. There was not an explosion and, to a great extent, the gamble has paid off.
Khrushchev's position, of course, is still not easy, and he needs all his very considerable skill to maintain it. He has China to worry about. He has agricultural troubles and economic pressures to contend with. At home, having once relaxed the pressure, he finds himself on very much of a slippery slope. In fact, he could not turn the clock back now even if he wanted to. He has to maintain a balance between those who want more freedom and are crying out for it all the time, and those who warn him against giving too much freedom. In short, human nature is beginning to assert itself, and human nature, given the chance, can in the long run make hay of any ideology or political system, especially one like Communism, which does not take sufficient account of it.
That is what is happening in the Communist world today. Stalin by terror

1365
and by immense force of character managed to arrest the normal workings of humanity, the normal processes, for over a quarter of a century. Khrushchev could not do it now if he wanted to. The result has been the emergence from the drab uniformity of Stalinism of a whole lot of highly coloured human phenomena, some of them not particularly edifying but all of them intensely human. There is youth in rebellion; Mods, Rockers, Beatniks, Teddy boys—the lot—in spite of the régime, in spite of the party and the police. There is an intelligentsia with a craving for knowledge of and contact with the outside world. I remember bringing Alan Sillitoe and the Russian poet Yevtushenko together. I did not particularly agree with either of them but was interested to see the pleasure it gave the two of them to meet, having only heard of each other before. Then, of course, there are the women, craving for foreign fashions, for cosmetics and for status symbols and, like women everywhere, somehow managing to get them.
There is now for the first time in Russian history and I say advisedly "Russian" and not Soviet history, a self-perpetuating upper class of which anyone who goes to Moscow will be very conscious. I remember being on a pleasure steamer in the Black Sea. As we were coming in there was a message over the loudspeaker system which said, "This is to inform Alga Ivanovna"—and a little teenager got up—"that her car, her chauffeur and maid are waiting at the quayside" On the Clyde that might have caused a certain amount of comment, but it did not cause any comment at all in the Soviet Union. Then there are the guards regiments with officers who behave with the same more or less effortless superiority as guardsmen the world over. There are politicians and officials with an eye to the main chance. There is a flourishing black market and, last but not least, something that has not been known in Russia for 30 or 40 years, and not really then, there are the makings of a public opinion. If one goes among the Russians and talks to them in Moscow and elsewhere one becomes very conscious of all these things.
What is there in all this for the West? What are the implications for us of these changes? In summing up a situation of
1366
this kind there are two main dangers. There is the obvious error of failing to notice that there has been any change and there is the other less obvious error of failing to notice that certain factors have not changed but have remained constant and must, therefore, be constantly taken into account.
To anyone who like myself knew Russia in Stalin's day, the changes are so staggering that one is disposed to assume that this is a different animal altogether. That assumption would be premature, to say the least of it. Today the declared aim of Soviet policy remains just the same as under Stalin and under Lenin. That aim is to impose a Soviet system and Soviet domination on the rest of the world. That is what Khrushchev meant when he said, "We will bury you". "The struggle continued by other means" is his definition of peaceful co-existence. That is something that we have to bear in mind the whole time.
As for the Chinese, their chief complaint against the Russians is that they are too half-hearted in the pursuit of their revolutionary aims. They too want to bury us, only sooner and deeper and faster. They too are racing the Russians for power in Africa, Asia and even in South America. That is something again which we cannot leave out of account. "The revolutionary prospects in Africa are excellent", said Chou En-lai with commendable frankness, on his recent visit there. And to judge by what is happening at this moment in Zanzibar, I think that there may be something in what he said.
That is why, however encouraging some of the signs may be, we must on no account lower our guard. I was glad to find that the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) was also of that opinion. The West must retain an effective nuclear deterrent. As the Prime Minister said, it is the nuclear balance of power that keeps the peace and nothing has ever been more fundamental than that. We must do that to prevent a hot war, and in order to play our part in the numerous cold war situations that are forced upon us we must have adequate, and I mean adequate, conventional forces. They too, as the hon. Member said, are a stabilising influence.

1367
In the course of the past 15 years or so, since 1949, the Western Alliance has achieved many, perhaps most, of its purposes, but the fact of its success is no reason to jettison it now. N.A.T.O. in particular is as necessary today as it ever was. So are CENTO and S.E.A.T.O. and so are our own garrisons overseas. It would be a fatal mistake to weaken any of them. What is needed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) said yesterday in what I thought was one of the best maiden speeches I have heard in the House, as was also said by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), is a much closer integration and co-ordination of allied policy, so that we and our allies—and our American allies in particular—do not constantly find ourselves pulling in different directions in different parts of the world.
Meanwhile, against this very real background and against the balance of terror and the cold war, there are without doubt very great new opportunities for an active and constructive foreign policy. The cold war is largely a war of ideas. Stalin, who realised that, was not taking any chances. He was not going to allow his people to be exposed to the contagion of Western ideas, hence the Iron Curtain. Khrushchev, much more of a gambler by nature, is prepared to take a chance. He is prepared in this respect to meet us on equal terms and try out his ideas and his system against ours. This is a challenge which we cannot possibly refuse. We are bound to accept it if we have the courage of our convictions. We must accept it in the political, economic and cultural fields, and I believe that we have nothing to fear from such an encounter.
Whatever some hon. Members opposite may say, Marxism has had its day. It is nothing but a busted flush. Our own ideas are better and stronger, and I say of them, as the Russians say less correctly of Marxism, that they are bound to win in the end. That is why I am not afraid of any contacts with the Russians. In fact, our ideas are winning already. When Marshal Tito introduces, as he recently did, commercial television into Yugoslavia it is high time that the party opposite—and I do
1368
not mean the Liberal Party—began to revise some of their early nineteenth century political thinking. Mr. Khrushchev's speeches are already beginning to read more and more like Tory Central Office pamphlets. To paraphrase Karl Marx, a spectre is haunting the Communist world today, the spectre of freedom, the spectre of freedom and free enterprise.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can it not be that Tory Central Office documents are getting more and more like the speeches of Mr. Khrushchev? As to the hon. Member's analysis of Marxism, does he not forget that this country is rapidly moving towards monopoly capitalism which shows that we have a great deal to learn yet from Karl Marx?
Sir F. Maclean: The hon. Member has that, as so many other things, the wrong way round.
I think, for all these reasons, that the Government have been absolutely right to neglect no opportunity of talking to the Russians at all levels. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) once said in a memorable phrase, "Jaw, jaw is better than war, war". I welcome what the Prime Minister said on this subject of contacts and conversations today. In 1959 my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) took what the Leader of the Opposition recently described as an inspired initiative—and I think that for once the Leader of the Opposition was right—of going to Moscow and talking to Krushchev. It did not produce any particularly spectacular results at the time, but it broke the ice and opened the way for further talks. He was accompanied, I believe, by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) but even that did not hinder him.
Last year the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary went to Moscow to sign the Test Ban Treaty. A couple of weeks ago my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland came back from a highly successful and extremely interesting and significant visit to Moscow to see the British Agricultural Exhibition. They found the Russians most ready for contacts and exchanges and collaboration in

1369
agriculture and in the technical field generally. There have been other successful talks this year at Ministerial level in the fields of foreign trade and aviation.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I.C.I.
Sir F. Maclean: Yes, and I am sure once again that the Russians had more to learn from Mr. Chambers than he had from them, especially about fertilisers.
All this is something which can be and will be no doubt extended to other fields where mutual interests exist, and it is very good news indeed that the Foreign Secretary is shortly to go to Moscow.
Nor does this apply to the Soviet Union only. We should also seek contacts with the satellites. There is the example of Rumania. The fact is that States which have a common ideology are not necessarily indissolubly bound to each other—any more than the Christian States have ever stayed united in history for any great length of time. The development of Soviet-Chinese relations has shown this well enough, and there is also the encouraging example of Yugoslavia. If these countries want to trade with us, why should we not trade with them provided that there is mutual advantage in it and we do not supply them with arms to use against us?
Finally, there is China. I recently went there and found an atmosphere of centralised control out of touch with the outside world which would have made Stalin green with envy. I say this without fear of giving offence to anybody. The Chinese like to be thought Stalinist and Stalin, in the modest little tomb to which they have consigned him outside the Kremlin wall, would no doubt like to hear such news of the Chinese. But the fact remains that, boycotted by the Russians and the Americans simultaneously, the Chinese are bound to seek other contacts with the outside world, and the Chinese being just as human as anyone else, if not more so, in the long run these contacts with the outside world are bound to have the same emollient effect as they have in the Soviet Union.
How should we in the West regard all this? I would say with cautious optimism. Whatever the leaders may want, the ordinary people of the Soviet Union and of China certainly do not want
1370
war, either hot or cold, and the more say they have in the conduct of their own affairs the less likely they are to let their countries become involved. Therefore, it seems to me that our best hope of peace and humanity's best hope of survival lies in the gradual evolution of the Communist world, of Russia and China in particular, into something a little less difficult to live with than it is at present. This is a process which, however slowly, has already begun and which we should do everything on our part to encourage.
7.46 p.m.
Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Like the rest of the House, I have listened with fascination to the speech of the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean). T hope he will forgive me if I do not follow him, except in seeking to emulate the moderate tone with which he always addresses the House.
I want to say a few words about Cyprus, a problem and a place with which I have become very familiar since I first went out in 1956 in the very curious circumstance of a double invitation to do so from Sir Anthony Eden, as he then was, and the Archbishop. I have been to Cyprus very frequently since, and I have been there twice in the course of the last five months. I want to start by emphasising how dangerous the situation in Cyprus now is and how rapidly it has deteriorated in the last few weeks. Unlike other hon. Members who have spoken in the debate, I want to urge the need for a radical and final settlement and to warn the House that in my opinion any new time-buying promise could only lead to more bloodshed, more instability, and grave new dangers.
The fact that a United Nations Mediator is now at work seeking a settlement does not mean that new initiatives are not needed from the British Government and the other N.A.T.O. Powers. On the contrary, if a settlement is to come quickly, as I think it must, it can come only from the combined efforts of the United Nations and the Governments most immediately concerned, Greece, Turkey, the Republic of Cyprus itself, the United States, Britain and the other N.A.T.O. countries. Indeed, the United Nations and N.A.T.O. should be working simultaneously by different methods though seeking the same objectives, but

1371
with the efforts of the NA.T.O. Governments mainly directed to easing Greek-Turkish relations and preparing Athens and Ankara for a final settlement.
The British Government, of course, have now lost the preponderant position which they had until recently, even after the independence of Cyprus. British policy is now only one of a number of influences which can decide the outcome. There are the Secretary-General of the United Nations and his mediator and his military commander. There is the Secretary-General of N.A.T.O., with his watching brief, and there are the United States Government and the United States Sixth Fleet, which at this moment is the predominant military factor in the situation. There is President Johnson's new approach to the Prime Ministers of Greece and Turkey, which we all hope will have good results. Nevertheless, the United Kingdom continues to have special responsibilities towards Cyprus, particularly because of our relationship in the past with the island and because of past mistakes and because of the military foothold which we still retain in the island.
During the past two weeks I have had a series of private discussions with a number of the people most directly concerned with the problem—United Nations officials, N.A.T.O. officials, the Government of Cyprus and senior representatives of the Greek, Turkish and American Governments. In an article published yesterday morning, which some hon. Members may have seen, I set out some of the conclusions which I have reached. My main conclusion is that there is now only one possible basis for a settlement of the Cyprus problem in the interests of all the parties concerned, including Turkey, and that is the union of Cyprus with Greece. I believe that a way has to be found to implement that union with the least possible delay. I do not believe that any new interim settlement, any fresh compromise or any new formula can restore peace and stability to Cyprus or protect the proper interests of the other parties concerned, including Turkey.
I am well aware that some hon. Members may think that I am specially sympathetic to the Greeks, and, of course,
1372
I am, as anybody whose family has had connections with that country since the days of Lord Byron is bound to be, and as anybody would be who had studied British-Greek history since that time and thought about the last two world wars. I have a special affection and a special appreciation for Greece and the Greeks. Nevertheless, I have always tried to keep very much in mind all the other interests concerned—first, of course, the interests of our own country and of our N.A.T.O. allies, and then the interests of the mainland Turks and of the Turkish minority in Cyprus, some of whom I visited only a short while ago in their beleaguered sector of Nicosia. There are also—and this is, perhaps, the most important of all from the point of view of world peace—the interests of the United Nations.
There are also the interests of the Greek Cypriots themselves, who represent four-fifths of the total population of the island and who have their own rights and aspirations, which often seem to be overlooked, as they were with such disastrous results in the settlement which was imposed upon them in 1960, which has now proved unrealistic, unworkable and unjust. I was one of the few hon. Members who said so at the time when we were discussing the settlement then made.
What are the alternative solutions for Cyprus other than union with Greece? In the past, Conservative Ministers and others used to threaten partition. I will not repeat the arguments against partition, because the Prime Minister himself, publicly and categorically on behalf of the British Government, has rejected it. No hon. Member has commended it during the course of this debate, and I believe that all the parties concerned in this problem, except Turkey, and all the other members of N.A.T.O. and of the United Nations have now come to accept the fact that to try to implement partition would be perilous in the extreme and that it would be impossible to do so.
If one eliminates partition, one is then left, apart from union with Greece, with some new form of independence. There are two kinds of independence. There is real, genuine independence with no strings attached, which must include the right of free self-determination for the majority. That, of course, would lead directly to union with Greece, because

1373
that is what four-fifths of the population have wanted, still want and will continue to want and to struggle for whatever obstacles are put in their way.
Full independence would be a quick step to union with Greece. Any other kind of limited independence, independence with strings or independence which excluded union with Greece, would simply mean attempting to perpetuate the disastrous Zurich agreement which led directly to the present breakdown. It would not be tolerated either by the Greek majority in Cyprus or by the Turkish minority, whose fighters would continue to wage war on each other. In the case of the Turks, they would continue to seem to provoke intervention from the Turkish mainland. Therefore, I do not believe that limited independence is a possibility. Full independence would certainly lead to Enosis at once.
But if there were to be some attempt at a compromise solution perpetuating in some form the present arrangement, it would not only be from Turkey that intervention would come. Quite apart from the inevitable Greek counteraction if there were a Turkish invasion, there is also the grave and urgent threat of intervention in Cyprus from other Powers. As the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley) said yesterday, Cyprus is terrifyingly full of arms—small boys with tommy guns and sten guns. It is difficult to exaggerate the situation. Not only is the island already full of arms, but there are offers of more from all kinds of quarters. When N.A.T.O. Ministers speak of the danger of Cyprus becoming a Cuba in the Eastern Mediterranean, that is no idle speculation. It is a real and immediate threat, and it will happen unless a radical and final solution is implemented very soon.
During the debate, a number of hon. Members have spoken about the need for strengthening the United Nations force. Like my right hon. parent the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker), who wound up the debate yesterday for the Opposition, I certainly want the United Nations to be strong and effective wherever it acts. It can only be effective, however, if behind the United Nations force there are plans for a settlement which are fair, just and
1374
democratic and which are accepted by the parties concerned.
When we speak of strengthening the United Nations force—and I have seen it at work and discussed these problems with its commander—we would do well to remember that we are talking about 7,000 United Nations soldiers and that for a number of years in the days when we had colonial Governors like Lord Harding and Sir Hugh Foot in Cyprus, we had 40,000 troops and police reinforced by everything from informers and police dogs to aeroplanes and naval craft, deployed against a small handful of fighters with, perhaps, one-thousandth part of the equipment that is in the hands of the Cypriots today. At the end of that struggle, we had totally failed to disarm and pacify the island.
Therefore, one should not expect too much of a United Nations force of 7,000 or 14,000 or even 24,000 men. They will not be able to do it unless they are operating m the context of a settlement which is accepted by the majority of the people of the island. This is another reason why union with Greece is the only practicable solution, because I cannot imagine any other force, national or international, which could in practice disarm the Cypriots and restore real law and order to Cyprus except the Greek Army and the Greek police.
Let me state two other principal advantages of union with Greece as a solution. First, I believe that it would ensure proper protection for the Turkish minority in Cyprus in precisely the same way that the Greek Government has protected the large, peaceful and contented Turkish minority which now lives in Greece. One of the few heartening features about the situation is the way in which, in spite of what has happened in Turkey and in Cyprus and in spite of the riots in Istanbul in 1955, the Greek Government has never fallen to the temptation to take it out of the Turks living in Greece. They have continued to live happily and peacefully, represented by two Members in the Greek Parliament, and no one has ever complained about their treatment.
The second further advantage of union as a solution to the Cyprus problem is that it would automatically bring Cyprus into N.A.T.O. It would finally dispose of the Turkish military fears by making

1375
it possible for Turkey to participate directly in the defence of Cyprus and it would make it possible for the United Kingdom to share our so-called sovereign bases with our allies. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), speaking from the Opposition Front Bench this afternoon, restated the simple fact that one cannot have military bases that are any use unless they are on the territory of friendly people. The only context in which I can see our military installations and facilities continuing to be effective in Cyprus is in the context of an arrangement which brings them into an alliance.
I know that in public at least the Turks still continue vehemently to oppose any mention of union of Cyprus with Greece. Nevertheless, I do not believe that any responsible Turk would willingly risk a Cuba in Cyprus to prevent it. It is true that some Turkish spokesmen have lately been threatening that if we displeased Turkey over Cyprus they would go neutralist or perhaps pro-Russian. It is true that some Western diplomats have been saying that the Government of Turkey is so unstable and insecure that it may collapse at any moment to be replaced by some kind of Nasserite revolutionary régime. This does not fit very well with the story which we were constantly told by Mr. Lennox-Boyd, as he then was, and other Conservative Ministers, namely, that we could not displease the Turkish Government at that time because Turkey was so loyal and stable.
But, of course, there is a problem. If Turkey is to be persuaded to repair her relations with Greece and other N.A.T.O. Powers and accept the only possible final settlement of the Cyprus problem, clearly her Government is entitled to expect some understanding and help. What other advantages could we offer the Turks, apart from the military security, the protection of the Turkish minority in Cyprus and the pacification of Cyprus, which would result from union with Greece?
There was some talk in this debate yesterday of possible territorial readjustment. The possibilities here are so limited—I know that they have been examined by the United States Government and other people—as to have only
1376
a very small but perhaps symbolic significance. But the possibility of a further exchange of populations to supplement and complete the exchange made after the First World War is something which could be explored. It is very sad to have to admit in 1964 that in some cases the only way to deal humanely with minorities is to remove and exchange them. Nevertheless, this may be part of the solution.
It might be enough to offer an optional resettlement in their motherland, perhaps under a scheme organised and financed by the United Nations, only to those members of the Turkish and Greek minorities in Greece, Turkey and Cyprus who desired to leave their homes. Personally, I doubt very much, if it came to the point, whether very large numbers of Turks, even Turks in Cyprus, would wish to do so, particularly if, as would certainly be acceptable to the Greek Government, some special arrangement for supervision of remaining minorities by the United Nations could be made in Cyprus and, perhaps, in Greece and Turkey as well.
I wish to say a brief word about the position of the United Kingdom troops in the United Nations force and in the base areas. I have listened carefully to everything that has been said about them in this debate. I spent some time with these troops at the beginning of the peacekeeping operation, and I should like to echo everything that has been said about the patience and devotion of the British troops in Cyprus. I still believe, however, that it is quite wrong to have a United Kingdom contingent with the United Nations force. I hope that it will be withdrawn and replaced as soon as replacements can be found.
I also believe that our bases and facilities will be rapidly rendered useless for the strategic purposes for which they are ostensibly required, unless they become allied bases on the territory of a friendly allied power. I hope that one day we may not need to have allied bases of this kind and that perhaps they, or part of them, can become a headquarters for United Nations forces in this area. We have not reached that moment yet.
So far, I have argued for a radical solution of the Cyprus problem through union with Greece on practical grounds—because I believe that it is the only possible

1377
solution which can protect the legitimate interests of the various parties concerned, can restore their friendship and bring back peace and stability to the Eastern Mediterranean. But to these arguments must be added one more, which is the most important of all. Four-fifths of the inhabitants of Cyprus are Greeks—Greeks by religion, Greeks by language, Greeks by culture and Greeks by a great hellenic tradition going back into the mists of pre-history. To seek to protect a small, weak, retarded Turkish minority left in Cyprus by the Ottoman occupation is certainly a very important duty. To grant freedom and self-determination to the overwhelming Greek majority is not only expedient; it is also common justice.
8.5 p.m.
Sir Hamilton Kerr: The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) speaks with authority on Cyprus based on personal experience. I only wish that I were qualified to take up some of the points which he made. He said that all of us were anxious to find a lasting settlement, and I suppose that many of us are worried that in that lasting settlement the Turkish minority may not receive just treatment. Would they be happy, with all the bitter memories of the civil war, to accept union with Greece? Is another solution partition of the island, or the repatriation of the Turks to the mainland of Asia Minor; or would they be willing to exchange an island for Cyprus with Greece?
I should like to take up briefly one point made by the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). Having connections with the United States myself, I was particularly interested by his references to our special relationship. I could not help recalling a story of the Secretary of State of President Theodore Roosevelt, in the early part of the century, who came to our ambassador, Lord Bryce, and said, "The trouble with you British is that you seem so damned superior", and then, after a short pause, added, "And what is far worse, you damned well are". We cannot take that, superiority for granted. We have to work hard for it.
I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths), in his admirable speech. The great asset of dealing with the Americans is, first, complete frankness
1378
and then their respect for success based on economic and political strength.
I want, very briefly, to come back to a scene far nearer home, namely, to France and our relations with France. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) once defined our policy as three intersecting but complementary circles—the first circle the Commonwealth, the second circle the United States, and the third circle Europe. I am afraid that the third circle has, for the moment at any rate, become disjointed from the others. How can we get it back? Perhaps it is the duty of some of us who love France and her people, and admire her history and achievements, and yet see her from the other side of the Channel, to try to explain some of the loyalties, motives and policies not only of the people of France, but, perhaps more important still, of the great man who presides over French policy, President de Gaulle.
I do not think that any of us question President de Gaulle's passionate love for France. When I read of his achievements I often recall the words written by Lord Rosebery about our own great Chatham, "He loved England with intense and personal love. He believed in her power, her glory and her public virtue until England came to believe in herself". I believe that we must admit that President de Gaulle has achieved the same thing for France almost single-handed. He has given her back her self-respect.
I think that this feeling, this love, for France draws its main strength from what the French call the civilising mission of France. It is interesting to note that a great many Frenchmen throughout history have had that same instinct. Perhaps hon. Members recall a fascinating passage in Lord Keynes' "The Economic Consequences of the Peace," when he described the aged Clemenceau, "the Tiger", sitting at the conference table, apparently old and exhausted, with closed eyes but always ready to pounce when the vital interests of France were at stake. As Keynes wrote, he felt about France what Pericles felt about Athens: she had unique virtue in her.
There is surely some jusification for this faith of President de Gaulle in France. After the experience of the

1379
disasters of 1940, when the German armoured columns had torn the French armies apart, when the Vichy Government was the prisoner of Berlin, and the uniforms of occupying soldiery were seen in every city and village of France. France never lost her prestige as a centre of cultured living. I believe that General de Gaulle and Frenchmen, see this worldwide mission in terms of civilising mission because they conceive that, owing to their geographical position and their history, they have been able to evolve a synthesis, a junction, between the two great tides of European thought and European culture, the one coming from the Mediterranean and deriving from Rome and Greece and the other from the North.
If I may use an architectural simile, France combines within her borders in the south the Roman Maison Carré at Nimes and in the north the Gothic cathedrals of the Ile de France. This explains President de Gaulle's intervention in South and Central America. This is not inspired by hostility to the United States, but from knowledge of the history of Central and South America. What is that history? The Portuguese and Spanish people there overthrew the original kingdoms, they left behind them their religion, culture, but a distrust of the former colonial Powers. Central and South America have, unfortunately, remained disjointed, weak and politically unstable.
Perhaps Simon Bolivar, the great liberator, felt the truth of this when he said, "America is ungovernable. Those who promoted independence merely ploughed the seed." The people of South America looked northward to the success of the North American peoples, where a great country with a vast, ingenious, active population has been able to achieve unity, even fighting a great war to do so. That is the basis of the great American power.
I remember talking to Dr. Trevelyan, late Master of Trinity, Cambridge. I asked him his opinion on Herbert Agar's book on American Presidents. I said that Lincoln wanted to save the Union and did not know why. Dr. Trevelyan said that Lincoln intuitively wanted to save it because he knew that the future would bring America power, as has
1380
been proved by her successful interventions in two world wars. In South America, the great success of the North has cast a shadow and, in spite of the immense generosity of the American people, has left a certain amount of jealousy.
This was expressed in the phrase of a great Mexican President, "Poor Mexico. So far from God, so close to the United States." What has happened? To these divided and weak poor States has come a new challenge, the challenge of Communism in the form of Castro. T think that President de Gaulle feels that there need be no direct challenge between American capitalism and the Communism expressed by Castro, that there could be a third alternative—the help and interest of Europe in South America—we know that, although Spanish and Portuguese are the presiding languages, always the intellectuals have looked to France for their inspiration. President de Gaulle is, I believe, making an effort to try to offer a third alternative to the people there.
What other qualities do we denote in his policy? First and foremost, the love of the military art. His first objective is to build a position of strength from which he can launch his operations. Hon. Members will remember his great speech in Westminster Hall, when he came here a few years ago. He talked almost with envy of the safe political base from which my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford was able to operate.
I believe that President de Gaulle is trying to build up a position of strength first by healing the age-old rift between Germany and France and ending the appalling Algerian war, a fratricidal war in which every French family sent a member to fight and which, like all civil wars, left behind great bitterness. I also believe that he is also trying to build a position of strength for two reasons. The first is to see that the United States, at some future time, does not reach an agreement with the Soviet Union at the expense of Europe. We have to admit that the memories of Yalta and the exclusion of the then General de Gaulle from the Yalta Conference have left bitter memories. I believe that France, whose fields were fought over in two world wars, dreads

1381
the possibility of a third world war, when American help might come too late.
I think that President de Gaulle feels that a strong Europe could help draw Russia more effectively towards itself. He sees Russia with an eastern frontier facing nearly 1,000 million Chinese and perhaps he recalls Napoleon's words about China, "Let the dragon sleep. When it wakes it will shake the world." I think that he feels that, sooner or later, the Chinese will explode on the line of least resistance—on those hundreds of miles of Mongolia and empty territory. He feels that this threat by China and the revived strength of Europe will make it possible to deal with Russia, which, in turn, would lead to a measure of greater relief and liberty to her present satellites.
Mr. Ellis Smith: We are listening with great interest to the diverting and eloquent speech of the hon. Member, but I am wondering, because I know President de Gaulle, where we come in in view of our relationship with the President as an individual and the French nation when we were standing alone.
Sir H. Kerr: I take the point. I am trying to argue that we can sympathise with many of the President's objectives, but that, perhaps, we are unnecessarily offended by the manner in which they are presented. I think that, if President de Gaulle had come, during the war, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford and had said, "I know that you love my country and I rely on you as a man of honour not to take advantage of the weakness of France", my right hon. Friend would have done anything to maintain that trust. But President de Gaulle chose a different approach and Yalta was a result.
I will not accept the present coolness towards France as a permanent thing. Our peoples share too many memories together. Our soldiers fought side by side on the battlefields of Flanders, Picardy and Macedonia in the First World War. They fought side by side in France, North Africa and Italy in the Second World War. Not only soldiers but civilians fought together as well. Let us not forget the heroic French resistance, the secret parachute drops, the showing of the V-sign
1382
for scattered farms, the help for those escaping from the Germans. There are ample memories and affectionate cause for our friendship for France.
Let us try to do four things. First, let us try to keep our personal friendships alive as much as possible. Secondly, let us, as much as we can, collaborate in such great enterprises as the construction of the Concord. Thirdly, let us collaborate in Africa, where the new nations of the French Union stand side by side with members of the Commonwealth. Finally, let us give ungrudging praise to the genius of President de Gaulle. I remember those wonderful words, which I translate perhaps inadequately, at the end of his history of the war:
"Old France, over-borne with history, shattered by wars and revolutions, coming and going without pause between glory and decline, but refreshed from century to century by the genius of revival".
8.19 p.m.
Mr. Dick Taverne: This has not been a real debate. It has roamed far too widely over too many subjects. We have had a fascinating insight into life in Russia from the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) and a most eloquent and interesting speech from the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr). I will not follow the hon. Gentleman because, I repeat, too many issues have been raised and, too often, speakers have tended to deal with a little here and a little there and to give a global survey without going into detail.
Perhaps some time we could have separate debates on the various aspects of foreign affairs instead of such a wide ranging discussion which only touches on topics here and there. Perhaps we could separately debate the Middle East, the Far East, Europe and our relations with Russia. These odd references with a few minutes spent on each subject do not reflect much credit on the House and do not take us very far with those subjects.
I wish to return to the subject of Southern Arabia. The future of Southern Arabia is not unimportant to us, because it affects our relations with the whole Arab world in which we have interests of great importance, but the future of the

1383
Federation of Southern Arabia is something which it would be unwise to discuss at the moment, as a conference on this subject is now taking place in London.
However, there is one comment on the conference which I should like to make. Clearly, Aden's rôle in the future Federation will be of the greatest importance. First, Aden is the main reason for our presence there. Secondly, Aden is a viable State which is expected to subsidise and does subsidise the rest of the Federation. Thirdly, Aden is economically, politically and educationally much the most advanced State.
Elections are bound to take place in Aden by 24th October. One of the questions is who will win the elections in Aden. There are different assessments about that, just as about other elections which are to take place in October, but one of the two main parties which may well win the elections, or certainly emerge as the largest party and which may well form the Government of Aden after October, is the People's Socialist Party. It is certainly the party representing by far the largest number of people living in Aden, which include many not Aden-born who do not qualify under the very restricted franchise.
Mr. W. Yates: Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that there will be elections in Aden and that the news that there will not be and that elections will be forgone for a new constitution is not correct?
Mr. Taverne: I have not seen any news of that kind. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has any inside information. I cannot give an assurance, because, unfortunately, this is a matter for the present Government, but I understand the position to be—and we have certainly had a number of assurances from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in the Government—that there will be elections and that they will take place before the end of October.
If these elections take place and if, as is perfectly possible, the P.S.P. wins them, what is to happen about the results reached at the present talks to which the P.S.P. has not been invited and in which it is not participating? This is something which requires careful explanation. If the results of the talks
1384
are not acceptable to what is to be the future Government of Aden, if the party winning the election in Aden objects to the results of those talks, what will then happen? It would have been very much better not to have had the talks in those circumstances, for we will then have a choice of forcing whatever conclusions are reached at the present conference on the people of Aden against the will of their elected Government, or of holding new talks, with the result that other parties to the present talks will feel that there has been some sort of breach of faith by the British Government.
Whichever course we take, it is quite likely that the result of the present talks will not help the situation in the South Arabian Federation but be more likely to hinder progress. It should at least be made quite clear that if the elections are held and a new Government is elected which does not accept what has been settled at these talks, this is not something which we will force on the people of Aden against their will.
My second comment relates to our own vital interests, as they have been called, in the area, what has been frequently referred to in a recurrent theme of the debate, namely, the base. It is said that the base is vital or essential. This is a statement more often badly made than defended by reasoned argument, but from time to time there have been arguments advanced as to why we should stay in the base.
The first point to make is whether we really mean what we say when we refer to the base as vital or essential, because if we mean it—and in the past we have often said it and then been shown not to mean it—presumably that means that we intend to stay there come what may at any price, wanted or not wanted. However, I presume that that is not what we mean. Let us consider the base and think some unthinkable thoughts, in the words of the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod). Let us consider the justification for the base and how far it goes.
There are four ways in which the base is justified: first, by reference to oil in general; secondly, by reference to Kuwait in particular and to the other Gulf States; thirdly, by reference

1385
to Aden being needed as a staging post for the Far East; fourthly, it is said that Aden is needed as a centre for other operations bordering on the Indian Ocean. Let me take those considerations one by one.
One thing which is clear is that our military commitment in the area to defend oil cannot prevent the nationalisation of British companies. No country has any right in international law—and no country has recently tried to enforce any such right in international law—to prevent any other country by force from taking over companies owned by foreign Powers. That is perfectly legal if compensation is paid. The factor which restrains the nationalisation of oil companies is the structure of the oil industry, and in particular its marketing arrangements which mean that no greater profit, no greater revenue, would be obtained by the producing countries themselves if they took over the oil themselves. Many of them realise, and this is why there has not been any take-over in Iraq, that nationalisation of the oil companies with the present structure of the international oil industry would not secure them more income.
It is also clear that our military commitments in the area would not stop the flow of oil. As the Arab leaders have actually admitted, they cannot drink the oil but can only sell it. Western Europe is their best client and it is inevitable that if we approach the matter not on a basis of military commitments but on the basis of commercial relationships, we will be in a position to buy oil just as these countries will want to sell it.
The third point is that our military commitment in the area is often not so much a safeguard as an irritant, often leading to a conflict with Arab nationalism, and that it would be a lesser threat to our oil interests in the area if our military commitment were withdrawn. It is not very likely that the countries producing the oil will cut off the flow of oil and deprive themselves of their incomes. It is perfectly possible that countries like Syria, or others through which the oil pipelines pass, at a moment of excitement, when there is a clash between Arab nationalism and Britain, would cut the pipelines and the flow of oil.
1386
Again, the point of view, which is sometimes held, that a military commitment in the Middle East is necessary because it somehow keeps off the threat of Communism is an argument which will not stand examination, because it is clear that a conflict between British interests and Arab nationalism would be likely to drive Arab nationalism into a closer association and alliance with the Soviet Union than would be the case if the military commitment were withdrawn, when there would be a much greater tendency for Arab nationalism to follow its natural course and remain one of the non-aligned forces in the conflicts of the world.
The second way in which the argument has been stated—and it was put this way by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly), among others—is that our presence is necessary for Kuwait and stability in the Gulf. It is clear that the smaller Gulf States do not require a major military commitment and the presence of large forces, because there is no threat to them by any modern army. The case therefore rests on Kuwait.
It is perfectly true that we have an agreement with Kuwait to go to its assistance if asked, but the difficulty about using Kuwait as a justification is that the Kuwaitis themselves strongly refuse to be used as any such justification. They have said themselves that they do not intend to ask us, that they do not see the 1961 position recurring, that they have no fears of Iraq, and that they will not have us use them as a reason for our presence in Aden and keeping the Aden base.
If we are: really going to use that argument, we are driven to the somewhat uncomfortable position of saying, "We are going to protect you, whether you like it or not". That is an utterly unjustifiable position. The 1961 situation is not particularly likely to recur especially with the present position of Kuwait within the Arab League. With the wealth at its disposal, it is possible for Kuwait to maintain its position by diplomatic means. History does not repeat itself, though military planners do.
Thirdly, there is the argument about the staging post. It is said that Aden is the vital staging post to the Far East.

1387
This argument undoubtedly has a certain point, though to my mind a lot of the talk about such bases is to a large extent a psychological hangover from the days when we thought in terms of the lifeline of Empire. I would accept the commitment in Malaysia. But the world is round, and, as even Columbus realised, one can travel westwards as well as eastwards.
There is a possible alternative route to Singapore, and that is via Canada and the Pacific. It is true that this route is more expensive, but there are a number of points to be made about it. One point is that it is politically much more safe. There are a number of possible difficulties about air access routes through the Mediterranean and the Middle East. Another point is that it may become less expensive in the future when we have new forms of transport planes with larger pay-loads and longer ranges. The last point is that if the eastwards route demands the maintenance of expensive bases, then the west-about route is very much cheaper.
Fourthly, there is the argument that we need Aden as a centre of operations for other areas in the Indian Ocean. Again there is something in this, but it is undoubtedly exaggerated, and here I agree with the point made by the right hon. Member for Enfield. We tend to think in terms of what has happened before. The fact that we have been called on to assist in East Africa before does not mean that we shall be called on again. In fact, one rather doubts whether the leaders of East Africa can survive, and not become far too vulnerable, if they have to admit that once again they are dependent on British assistance. One wonders whether, if they had to call on British assistance again, they could continue to maintain their status as self-respecting African nationalists.
It may be that we will be called on again, but the question arises whether in future this kind of commitment is not more likely to be a United Nations commitment. If it is, the question arises whether Britain should form only a proportion of such a force, rather than supply the whole of it. Cyprus has shown too clearly the dangers of Britain being dominant in an area where she
1388
recently claimed interests, and in an area where she has had a history of close association, which has not always been fortunate, though in East Africa it has been a happier association as a whole.
It is sometimes suggested that Aden would be the centre for operations in such places as India, yet during the Indian-Chinese conflict, although the Indians were only too ready and glad to receive arms from the West, there was never a whisper of any contribution of forces from the West.
My conclusion is that while undoubtedly there is a rôle to be played, it is one which is exaggerated, and that leads me to my conclusion on the value of Aden as a base. I do not say that it is valueless—certainly not—but I do say three things: first, that Aden as a base is not vital but useful; secondly, that in the area as a whole we are over-committed; parts of our present commitments are not justified, and, in general, they are exaggerated; thirdly, that there are alternatives, particularly for operations in the Indian Ocean, admittedly to start with at slightly greater expense. There are feasible alternatives in the way of the Seychelles or Mauritius.
From those three conclusions a number of effects on policy in the area of South Arabia follow. The first of these is that Aden, or the continued interest which we would seek in Aden, does not justify operations of the Radfan type. I wish that I could share the confidence of the hon. Member for Pembroke that there is no connection between the base and the Radfan operation. There is a connection between the base and the Federation, and there is a connection between the maintenance of the Federation and the operations of the Radfan, because what we have tried to do is to force into the Federation areas which were previously unadministered, and which did not want to be part of the Federation.
We are now following a policy which the Foreign Secretary announced, and which I found disturbing. He said yesterday:
" … we shall fight subversion wherever we find it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th June, 1964; Vol. 696, c. 1136.]
Subversion does not always have the meaning in Southern Arabia which it

1389
might have in other contexts. If we try to force into the Federation areas which are unadministered, and which do not want to be part of the Federation, we shall find our military commitments overstretched. It is already the fact that, apart from our own military commitments in the area, out of the £4½ million subsidy that we give the South Arabian Federation, we are spending £1·8 million on the Federal Army, and more than £1·2 million on the security forces, the Federal National Guard.
Mr. W. Yates: Is it any of our business to force these people into the Federation?
Mr. Taverne: The hon. Gentleman and I are at one on this.
Secondly, we should look for possible alternatives. It has been pointed out by several speakers that there is no great opposition to the Aden base by any of the parties in Aden. That is true. If we say that we accept the principle that it must be freely negotiated, that it may be subject to certain terms of not being used for offensive operations against other Arab countries, it may be possible to negotiate an agreement, but a price will be asked, and I think that we should bear in mind that we do not want to pay too high a price. For that reason, I think that we would be wise to look for possible alternatives.
In conclusion, I say that once our relations with all parties and people in Southern Arabia are on the basis of give-and-take in free negotiation, and once we have become disillusioned of the idea that our interests conflict with Arab nationalism, the whole future of the area becomes one of hope, and once our general relations with the Arab countries are put on a commercial basis, it may be that an unhappy chapter in our relations with the Arabs will come to an end.
8.47 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Wall: The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) concentrated his remarks on the current crisis in Aden. I do not want to follow him too deeply on that subject. As I see it, the present constitutional crisis is a struggle for power between, as the hon. Gentleman would put it, democratic Aden and the reactionary Federation. Omitting those two adjectives, I agree that that is what is happening. He would like to see a strong Aden. In the Aden political
1390
parties Yemeni influences predominate, and they are to some extent controlled by the Egyptians.
I, on the other hand, would like to see a strong federation. I believe that the rulers of the Federation have the training and experience to use power, and that in the long run they would make a better show of the Federation—indeed they have done pretty well so far—than would the politicians of Aden. Whichever course is followed—whether Aden comes out as the strongest member of the Federation, or whether the sheikdoms come out on top—I believe that in five, six or seven years' time the National Guard or the Arab Army will take over from the squabbling politicians and run Aden themselves on the modern pattern of Arab nationalism and Socialism. In those circumstances, the immediate crisis that we are discussing may not be so vital as we think.
Hon. Members are sometimes criticised for spending too much time, in foreign affairs debates, talking of the present and the immediate future of the immediate crises which make the newspaper headlines and which occur almost daily. This criticism may give rise to the view—I think it is a wrong view—that the foreign policy of both sides of the House tends to be built on short-term expediency rather than long-term planning. I want therefore to consider what I believe to be a fundamental question, namely, where we in Britain shall stand in ten years' time.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) often referred about three complementary and interlocking circles, of each of which Britain was a part—the Commonwealth, Europe and the North Atlantic. I want to examine those three circles and try to estimate what Britain's position will be in each of them in ten years' time.
First, I want to deal with the Commonwealth. As the Prime Minister has pointed out in many speeches, the Commonwealth is the only effective bridge which exists today—and, as far as I can seee it, it will probably be the only one that will exist in ten years' time—between rich and poor, strong and weak, white and coloured. The Commonwealth has great intangible strength, but the greatest supporter of the Commonwealth—and I count myself as one of its strong

1391
supporters—could not claim that as a bloc with a common voice or even a common purpose. As the Commonwealth continues to expand and it expands every year, I wonder how its shape will change. It certainly does not look at though it will form a cohesive force in ten years' time, or that all Commonwealth countries will adopt the same world policy.
As for Europe, it looks as though as long as de Gaulle is President of France Britain will not enter Europe. It becomes increasingly obvious that the Common Market is a tightly-knit, inward-looking organisation. In ten years' time after there has been ten years of French leadership I wonder whether we shall have found a place in the European Economic Community? Then, what about Russia? It is possible that the thaw in the cold war, which has been talked of so much tonight, may diminish tension to such an extent that Russia will become part of Europe. Can Britain compete on equal terms with a Russia that is part of Europe?
It seems to me that it is to the third circle that we should look. Let me speak aloud some unthinkable thoughts. Very often our policy and that of the United States of America seem to be based on rivalry instead of partnership. In many parts of the world our respective policies act in opposition to each other, as has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-on-Tweed (Viscount Lambeton). I wonder whether we should not direct our thoughts during the next ten years towards creating greater unity between the United States, Britain and the members of the old Commonwealth.
Canada, Australia and New Zealand are already entering the American econofic and, perhaps, political orbit. The object of the Common Market countries is to create a common Parliament. Should not we in ten years' time think of creating a common Parliament, consisting of the Americans, ourselves and the English-speaking countries of the old Commonwealth? I believe that British influence in such a union of the English-speaking nations would be far more powerful than British influence in a United States of Europe.
What would the Americans get from such a common Parliament? I do not
1392
want to go into the matter in detail, but America would for one thing have the world dispersion that she needs together with access to raw materials which do not exist within the confines of the North American Continent. That thought may be unpopular in some quarters, but in thinking of the three circles to which I have referred—the Commonwealth, Europe and the North Atlantic—we should concentrate much more than we have in the past on the third and consider our relations with the Americans. If the Common Market ultimately means a united Europe, we should be thinking of unity with the United States of America.
I now turn to a more topical subject and would ask what is the basic threat in the world today. The debate has shown that hon. Members on both sides agree that East-West differences are dying down. It has been stressed from my side of the House, that this diminution of the cold war is due largely to the success of the nuclear deterrent. This country has had many enemies in the past—Spain, France and Germany—and, I suppose, Russia, but if we were asked to think ahead and name the Power on the horizon that seems the most potentially hostile, I suggest that we would name China. China, not only because she will be a nation of 1,000 million people at the turn of the century, but because she is the greatest country in the undeveloped world. She is the great "have-not", an Asiatic and agricultural country.
It seems to me that the real problem which we always have before us in the world today is caused by the existence of the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots". Our efforts must be directed towards closing this gap. Is it possible to do so? A short time ago I was talking to experts in Paris on this matter and I put the question to them; if the developed countries of the world, including Russia, doubled their present programme of governmental and private enterprise assistance to the underdeveloped countries, what would happen to this gap between the rich and the poor nations of the world? The answer I got was that the gap would remain exactly where it is and that if we did not double our aid the gap would widen. That seems to me to present a pretty appalling prospect.

1393
In this country we have managed to close the gap by evolution rather than by revolution—
Mr. Ellis Smith: Oh! Is the hon. Member quite sure?
Mr. Wall: The hon. Member may not think that we have closed it tight enough. But he will agree that the "two worlds" of Disraeli are now one world, which we achieved without a revolution. Our task now is to see whether we can close this world gap by evolution. If we fail we shall have revolution on a world scale. The information to which I have just referred, which I obtained from experts in O.E.C.D., does not present a very good augury for the future. For the remaining part of my speech, I wish to refer to this objective and to what must be the responsibilities of a Government faced with the problem of closing this gap. First and obviously, they must do everything possible to lessen the disparity between rich and poor. We may under-estimate that task. We are giving Government aid and help to the under-developed countries to the tune of something like £220 million a year, and there is, in addition, £300 million going in from private enterprise and private investment. That is a pretty good sum for a country of 52 million people, but it is not even closing the gap, only just maintaining the same level.
I believe that the Geneva Economic Conference which has just ended—in which such a prominent part was played by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development—shows the lines on which the world should move. I doubt whether the world will move fast enough. We have to face the fact that the developed countries, excluding Soviet Russia, are, by and large, democratic countries. They are controlled by the vote and by the voice of the taxpayer. We talk about doubling the present amount of aid, but the taxpayer will have something to say. There are, therefore, restrictions. Our emotions may wish us to equalise as rapidly as possible, but there are definite restrictions on what the richer nations of the world can do to close this gap. I do not want to labour these points merely to point out how difficult is our task. Many other
1394
right hon. and hon. Members are thinking about this issue and probably know far more about it than I do.
If we fail to close the gap and secure evolution in the world, we shall be faced with a revolutionary situation. Surely it is the responsibility, indeed the duty, of any Government to make the necessary preparations. These must be to guard against the final dying kicks in the conflict between East and West. They have also to prepare for the possibility of a North v. South conflict led by China.
I cannot attempt to cover all the world crisis points in the short time that remains for me in which to speak, or describe all the preparations which I think should be made, but I will mention three areas which I know well. First, the Middle East. There we are concerned more with the old East-West conflict than the new North-South conflict. I should like to refer to the speech of the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker), who has spoken many times in this House about Cyprus. Today he managed to speak on that subject for practically the whole of his speech; he hardly mentioned Turkish rights and interests. All I would say is that Turkey is the link between N.A.T.O. and CENTO and that any solution reached in Cyprus must be acceptable to the Turks. Whatever happens in Cyprus, it would create a far more serious situation in the Western world if as a result of the Turks feeling that the allies had let them down Turkey turned to neutralism. That would mean the collapse of Persia and the Russians would have access to the Persian Gulf, a dream the Tsar have had for many decades.
I shall not touch on the question of Aden, because I referred to it in my comments on the speech of the hon. Member for Lincoln. In referring to Middle Africa, I would mention Zanzibar, which I visited a few days ago and which is now a Communist State with the Chinese and the Russians vying for leadership. The strength of Chinese Communism in Africa is underestimated. Generally the African is not Communist and is not interested in Marxist philosophy, but the Chinese come in and say, "We are Asiatics. We are coloured people. We are the largest

1395
'have-not' nation in the world. We are an agricultural nation and we have come to help you." That is very effective.
The Chinese have the largest delegation in Zanzibar and are sending plane loads of Zanzibaris to visit Peking. They are not interested in the direct government of the country as are the Soviets or Germans but they are interested in agriculture. They send many tractors and it is said that each has a driver and an interpreter. Evenutally the tractor and its crew merges into the countryside. Not only has Chinese Communism penetrated into Zanzibar, but it is penetrating in Tanganyika; it exists in strength in Burundi and the Congo and Kivu where Pierre Mulele, its local leader, is making considerable progress, and it is strong in Brazzaville. It has penetrated across the African Continent from Zanzibar to Brazzaville.
I beg the House to treat the question of southern Africa as a whole not so much as a question of emotion but of what are our real interests. Of course we want to see an end to the racial policy of the present South African Government, but we do not want to go so far as some organs of the Press and the public and to ask for economic sanctions. If we support sanctions we may have to go the whole hog and prevent oil being landed. That could only be by Powers with aircraft carriers, that is, Britain, the United States of America and France, and it would mean war with South Africa. To suggest that because apartheid is wrong and because of this we and other countries should go to war with South Africa seems to me to be arrant nonsense, but it is an argument which was advanced in at least one responsible Sunday newspaper. There are four million white people in southern Africa and they will not be eliminated.
I believe it is in our interests to see that white leadership—not domination—remains in southern Africa, because I believe that southern Africa will be absolutely essential if we ever have to face the catastrophe of a racial war. Otherwise how could we bring aid to Australia? How could we replace the 70 per cent. of the Free World's gold which comes from South Africa? If we could only get a combination of the Portuguese attitude to
1396
race and a non-racial social system, the Rhodesian attitude to government and local government and the South African attitude to economic matters, we might be able to restore some form of stability to that part of the world. I am not for a moment advocating apartheid. I believe it is wrong and that it should go, but let us face the problem that southern Africa is a key area of the world realising that if we let our emotions take charge we shall create a bloody revolution which will be to no advantage to this country or to any race in the African continent.
In conclusion, may I repeat my basic question? Can Britain continue to stand alone in ten years' time? Can the unity of the North Atlantic be better achieved through Europe or through the union of the English-speaking world? I believe that such an Atlantic union would make it much easier to close the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots" and that if things went wrong and we were faced with a world racial conflict we should be better able to stand up to China and her allies. I believe that time is not on our side and that among the statesmen of the world only the Prime Minister seems to have faced up to these immense problems.
8.56 p.m.
Mr. Harold Wilson: This debate has been made remarkable by two maiden speeches. I should like to add my tribute to those of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles) and the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths). As the Prime Minister said, the reputation of the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds has preceded him in this place. Now that we have heard him speak, what puzzles some of us is how the gold of his eloquence was transmuted into the base lead of the speeches which we heard from the Prime Minister.
This has been a wide-ranging debate. There have been far more issues for debate than in any foreign affairs debate which we have had for a long time and no one has been able to take up more than one, two or three of the issues which have been raised. I must begin by expressing my profound disappointment with the Foreign Secretary's speech yesterday, which the Conservative Press told us was to be a tour de force. Whatever

1397
it was, it was not that; but he has another chance tonight. All we had yesterday was a weary and sterile speech from a very weary and sterile Government who have no ideas of their own. It is a Government who are reduced both in Parliament and in the country to discussing our ideas. Even the Conservative Press devotes more acreage to what we think than to what the Government think.
The Prime Minister's speech this afternoon was, I thought, rather more philosophical than the Foreign Secretary's speech. Some of it, perhaps because of being foreshortened a little, seemed rather compressed in its argument and a little crude in its analysis. The Prime Minister's philosophy, which we get week after week—
Sir Cyril Osborne: Come off it.
Mr. Wilson: I want to deal seriously with the very serious arguments of the Prime Minister if I have half a chance from the hon. Member.
The Prime Minister's philosophy is that because of our nuclear deterrent the Soviet Union has renounced force, though, of course, we must be vigilant, and has taken to subversion. As usual, he manages to confuse the question of whose deterrent it is which has achieved this state of affairs. "Our deterrent" is what he says. Sometimes he means "we, the West ", and sometimes he means "we, Britain ". We get this grateful allusion all the time to Western nuclear strength.
Of course, it is the American strength which is responsible for the Western contribution to the nuclear stalemate. The right hon. Gentleman is always trying to suggest that the British nuclear deterrent is responsible for all this, but no one outside the right hon. Gentleman and some rather uncritical Conservative audiences think that it adds anything to Western nuclear strength. More and more as the weeks go by the right hon. Gentleman is claiming for the British deterrent what belongs to the Western deterrent, which, in terms of credibility, is the American deterrent.
However, I agree with much that the Prime Minister said this afternoon about the Soviet Union. Perhaps he will allow me to put the analysis rather differently,
1398
although with many of the same conclusions. I feel that the more relaxed attitude of the U.S.S.R. and the greater prospects for conciliation today are probably due to three things. First, there is the rift with China, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. That is right, but I think that it is highly dangerous to keep trading on it. To say to Mr. Khrushchev, as I think the right hon. Gentleman was in danger of saying, that the wind from China is blowing Mr. Khrushchev into our arms is the one way to ensure that it does not happen.
Again, the right hon. Gentleman said—I think that he was right to say—that there is popular support in the Soviet Union for conciliatory moves by the Soviet Government. I think that is right, but we must not forget the elements in the Soviet Union who take a different approach to these things, elements which, in Washington terminology, would be called the hawks as opposed to the doves, I suppose, and who are very suspicious of any moves towards the West. These are not, as far as we can tell—there is a lot of mystery about this, obviously—just the old Stalinists. There are some younger men high up in the party hierarchy who view with grave suspicion Mr. Khrushchev's flirtation, as they would see it, with the West
This is why, as some of us have frequently urged, it is very important, where it can be done without dropping our guard or giving away any vital Western interest, to help Mr. Khrushchev to get agreement, so that he has some answer to give to those who are criticising him for being conservative. About this I am sure we all agree.
The second factor is the one to which the right hon. Gentleman rightly drew attention—the acceptance of the fact that neither side can now obliterate the other in a single stroke, what the West call the balance of terror. I felt, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) felt, when talking to Mr. Khrushchev, that this produced a feeling almost of security, almost of cosiness, in the way he described the situation. The Prime Minister tends to dramatise this in terms of Cuba, where there was a very dramatic nuclear confrontation, though, once again, I think that he will agree that it was not our V-bombers and

1399
free-falling bombs which were at issue. It was the Americans'.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested this afternoon, I am sure because of compression, that Cuba converted Mr. Khrushchev, as it were, in a blinding flash of Damascus-road enlightenment. It was a spectacular confrontation, and things cannot be the same again after Cuba. We all recognise that. But I believe that the acceptance of the nuclear stalemate, or whatever one calls it, has developed over a longer period. There was, for example, as we all know—the right hon. Gentleman was Foreign Secretary at the time—a confrontation over Berlin in 1961.
However, I think that it is important not to underrate the fact that the Russian feeling is partly based on growing Soviet confidence in the pacific intentions of the United States under the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations, as compared with the days of John Foster Dulles and the loose American talk of massive unilateral use of United States nuclear power. At that time I think that the Soviet Union, or many of the Soviet leaders, were genuinely afraid that this would happen and that even a small move would be met by this kind of massive development.
I think that the third reason lies in the changes in the Soviet Union. Again, the right hon. Gentleman touched on this. I refer, first, to changes in the Soviet Government and, secondly, to the change in Soviet society. The change in the Soviet Government, above all the replacement of Stalin by a more genuinely collective leadership, is one of the keys to what has been happening, which has been a progressive change over the past few years.
Some of us, on, I think, both sides of the House, saw this as long ago as 1953 after Stalin's death. Some of us said so. I shall refer in a moment to something said by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). If hon. Members will turn back in any leisure moments they have to the debate on German rearmament in this House, which was a very serious and probing debate, in March, 1954, they will, I think, find that some of us at that time said that the change from the Stalinite system to the collective leadership would have a
1400
very marked effect on relations with the West, but it needed, as the right hon. Gentleman fairly said, these other developments to consummate the possibilities.
From March, 1953, onwards there was a different team, in fact a different generation—not, as Stalin was, hagridden, suspicious, neurotic and obsessional. There was a team of men who were constructive rather than revolutionary, a team of men of a new generation more able to reflect the new nature of Soviet society—the technocrats, the businessmen, who, as many hon. Members know from business and other contacts with them, are highly sophisticated and intelligent and could not be treated as Stalin used to treat the Russian people before 1953.
There is also in Soviet society the importance of the consumer. If the House will permit a short personal reference to the right hon. Member for Woodford, in May, 1953, I was invited to the Soviet Union by Mr. Mikoyan. For several years none of us had been there. It was one of the worst periods in the cold war. The occasion of which I speak was two months after Stalin's death. I was talking to the right hon. Member for Woodford, who at that time was not only Prime Minister but in charge of the Foreign Office, because Sir Anthony Eden was ill.
The right hon. Member for Woodford said to me, "This is very interesting. You will hear a lot there which we cannot get through the ordinary channels. What I would like to know is what Russia intends to do about expanding consumer goods and increasing her standard of living". That was a revealing question and on that occasion, not for the first or last time, the right hon. Member for Woodford was speaking of a real problem, for he realised that once the Russians started to go for a higher living standard, conditions for conciliation would exist.
On other aspects of the Prime Minister's speech, I welcomed his very frequent references to the North-South problems these days and also to his recognition, which he stated clearly, of the unique power of the Commonwealth through its multi-racial character in the contemporary post-colonial world. This

1401
is to be welcomed because it was the emphasis on the multi-racial character of the Commonwealth which was the main theme of Hugh Gaitskell's historic speech at Brighton in 1962, although that speech did not secure very much acceptance by a Government who, at that time, were hell-bent on getting into the Common Market on terms which would have virtually destroyed our relations with the Commonwealth, certainly in economic terms.
Hon. Members: Rubbish.
Mr. Wilson: Hon. Members opposite say, "Rubbish", but I have asked the Prime Minister to tell us whether it would be his intention at any time to try to seek entry on those same terms. It is interesting to see so many hon. Members opposite regarding those terms as acceptable, which we would not. But I will not pursue that matter today because it is difficult to get answers from the Prime Minister on this subject. There will, I hope, be another occasion.
As I have said, this has been a wide-ranging debate and I do not propose to follow my right hon. and hon. Friends on the subject, for example, of Laos, on which, as far as I can see, there is complete agreement on both sides of the House—indeed, between ourselves and the United States and ourselves and the Soviet Union. The subject of Vietnam was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), and on the question of Cyprus there has been a full discussion.
All I would do is underline the warning about Cyprus given by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East, which was echoed by several of my hon. Friends, the discussion about which was started by the Foreign Secretary yesterday and which was followed in an extremely interesting speech of the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley)—on the problems of the position of British troops and the conditions under which we should be prepared to stay in Cyprus and the conditions under which we should not be prepared to stay in regard to the policing rôle.
There is only one question on the problem of Cyprus which I wish to put to the Foreign Secretary, and I hope that he will give me a reply. Will he comment on Press reports to the effect that Her Majesty's Government have now decided
1402
to evacuate the sovereign base there over a period of time? This was prominent in some Sunday newspapers and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether or not that is the decision.
I turn to the issue of British Guiana. This is not strictly within the scope of a foreign affairs debate, but the situation there has deep overtones, going far beyond the very grave internal position. This is no time for an inquest on what has happened; the position is too grave for that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley) put our views clearly and with great restraint in the debate on the matter a few weeks ago.
In addition to what he said, I deeply regret that the Government, a year ago, did not accept our proposal for a Parliamentary delegation of one or two senior Privy Councillors on each side of the House to go there to see and report to the House. Things have gone too far now for that to be done, for the reasons my right hon. Friend stated. However, I wish to urge a new initiative on the Government which I hope they will consider. All of us have for long realised that there is not, and is not likely to be, the confidence or trust for a simple British Guiana solution, least of all on the basis of what we regard as a fiddled Constitution; fiddled by the right hon. Gentleman.
Because of this very fact we have at various times suggested a Commonwealth presence to guarantee human rights, and to guarantee the independence of judiciary and police, perhaps by a Canadian or West Indian Chief Justice and Police Commissioner. The same thought, of course, underlay the imaginative initiatives taken some time ago, and again very recently, by the Prime Minister of Trinidad.
Tonight, I would make this suggestion to the Government. They should put this on the agenda of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference. They should propose that a high-level Commonwealth mission, consisting of, let us say, representatives of Canada, Trinidad, Jamaica, India, and a West African State, should go there—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ghana."] This is not the time for pursuing hon. Members' prejudices. This is a very serous situation. The mission should go there to attempt to work out a solution, including whatever ultimate

1403
Commonwealth presence may be necessary. I hope that we shall be told that the Prime Minister is prepared to consider that suggestion.
I want now to come to one of the central issues of the debate which has been taken up by a number of hon. and right hon. Members—Aden and the Middle East. During the height of the fighting in the Radfan mountains, I made a statement on the situation—about a month ago; an interim statement—looking forward to this debate. The first thing I said then was that while that fighting was at its height, and fighting in the most intolerable conditions of heat, acute thirst—and, indeed, tribal brutality—we would not raise the wider issues of why the troops were there and what were the wider foreign policy aspects at stake.
But, committed as they were, I felt it right to say that the Government were right to back them with air power. I said that. This did not express support for the bombing of Harib, which we have condemned, as has the whole of world opinion as expressed through the United Nations. [Interruption.] That is a very different thing. That was an entirely separate operation—[Interruption.] It was crossing the frontier, and bombing another country. The support I gave in that statement was for the use of air power to back up our troops fighting in the Radfan mountains within the Federation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where would you stop?"] Where would I stop? I would stop at the frontier. It is quite simple. It is one of the simplest points in defining the whole concept of international aggression.
In my statement, reserving the wider comment for this debate, I also referred to the question of the base in Aden. Our position on bases is this. We believe that the peace-keeping rôle, which will over the next generation be the main contribution of this country to world affairs—peace-keeping on behalf of the Commonwealth, of the Western Alliance and of the United Nations—will mean a very big rôle for this country east of Suez. I believe that many of our allies in the Commonwealth, and the United States, are coming round to a view I have heard expressed at the highest level, and no doubt the Prime Minister
1404
has, that, at the margin, another 1,000 troops deployed east of Suez is a bigger contribution to world peace than another 1,000 in Germany.
This means bases where we can get them, not by force but by agreement, and in my statement—[Interruption.]—these are really important matters—I stressed, and I repeat:
"In the long run, the security of a base depends on the willingness with which it is accepted by the local population."
Surely we have learned our lesson over the years—that a base held against the wishes of the local Government and the local population is not only morally indefensible but militarily indefensible as well.
Which bases do we need? Frankly, until an Opposition becomes the Government it does not possess—[Interruption.] Well, this Opposition is trying to become the Government in October, but until then the Opposition does not possess the secret military information required, nor do back bench Members opposite—[Interruption.] If hon. Members will listen they will, perhaps, follow the argument.
I have just said that until an Opposition becomes a. Government, it does not possess, for example, information on what other bases we are to have within reasonable distance. Indeed, no one, including the Government, can forecast our position a year ahead in Libya. On the other hand, no one, a year ago, would have forecast that the independent Government of Kenya would now be asking us not to take troops out of Kenya.
Again, one has to have knowledge of the range of our transport aircraft: if we are to rely on the Hastings and the rest, so many of which had to refuel at Nice or Malta in the Christmas airlift to Cyprus, obviously one needs bases, or at least landing strips, at more frequent intervals than if one can provide Transport Command with planes with a very much longer range. Again, an Opposition have not, as a Government have, or we hope have, knowledge of over-flying facilities and conventions governing them, many of them obviously secret. So, in opposition, as I have said frequently, one cannot take a final line on which bases we shall need and, even

1405
when the Government, one has to be flexible and adaptable about it.
I therefore stick to what I said in my statement—that on all the information available to us, and subject to what may be found on the issues that I have just mentioned, I reckon that we do need Aden. [Interruption.] It would be more helpful in a debate on vital issues, affecting men's lives, if hon. Members opposite who have not been here throughout the debate would listen to those who have.
So far as one can see, we need Aden as an essential centre for peace-keeping operations in a wide area around it, and as the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) said, it is an essential staging-post in our communications with the East, particularly India and also Malaysia, to whose support against external aggression we are as fully committed as are the Government.
This has nothing to do with oil imperialism. We shall get our oil on a commercial basis or not at all, and we have already, 7½ years ago, seen one desert pipeline broken and spluttering in the sand. But, as I have said, no base is viable if it is not acceptable to the local population.
This brings me to the third point of which I gave notice a month ago, which is the whole basis of the Government's policy in the area. The first question I want to ask is this. I am sure that this is a question that the Foreign Secretary repeatedly asks himself as he sits on the Isle of Mull and watches the Colonial Secretary operate in such areas of great sensitivity with all the finesse of which he is capable.
The question that I ask the Foreign Secretary is: where are we heading in South Arabia? We have hastily committed ourselves to a Federation dominated by feudal rulers in the Protectorates and to a Government in Aden who are almost certainly totally unrepresentative, elected on a Constitution which is now superseded, and who are retained in office by the last resort of a beaten and discredited British Government—postponement of the election.
The totally unrepresentative Parliament which was elected—in Aden, I mean—in 1959 was due to go four years
1406
after that event, but its life was extended by the 1962 Constitution to January, 1964, and extended a second time to July, 1964. I hesitate, in the presence of the right hon. Gentleman, to remind the House that the Aden Government had, in fact, been kept in being not just by defying all precedent in running their full statutory term, but actually by extending their statutory term beyond the normal limit. I really hesitate to mention this to the right hon. Gentleman lest he should start thinking on these lines.
The Aden 1962 Constitution, which contains a section guaranteeing human rights, provided for a Legislature of 16 elected members, elected on a more representative franchise than the present Constitution provides, and six nominated members. The present Legislature, therefore, is quite unrepresentative, and I cannot understand why the Colonial Secretary in this London conference should base the representation on the 1959 Parliament and thus exclude the P.S.P. and by that fact almost certainly fail to represent the majority of the Arab population.
What is needed in Aden is elections on the new franchise and a new Constitution, and a clear declaration that progress towards democratic rule in Aden is not going to be retarded by the backward nature of some of the Protectorates. The Government tell us that we are bound by treaties with the feudal rulers, but we must ask why British troops have had to be used to bring under the control of the rulers areas like the Radfan which have not bean under them before. Our obligations to the rulers related to their territories, to their writ at the time of the agreements, and not to extending them. In the case of the Radfan, we are told, there is the added point that the tribesmen had repeatedly petitioned the British Government not to force them in under the ruler of Dhala. If that is so, it may well be that the rebellion is not quite so sinister as has been sometimes suggested by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and by the more jingoistic sections of the Press, as having been originated by the Yemen with gold and munitions from Egypt and originally from the Soviet Union. It may well be to a large extent a matter of tribal loyalties.

1407
I ask the Foreign Secretary to answer clearly a question of which he has had notice. Did the tribesmen petition the Crown and, if so, what answer did they get? Is the story in The Guardian true that their emissaries, who had gone to present the petition, were arrested and the fighting started next day? We want a clear, unequivocal answer to this. If we cannot get it, we should should ask for an impartial inquiry. Lord Devlin is free, anyway.
I have said that progress in Aden should not be slowed down to the pace of the slowest ruler. Another point to which I drew attention in my earlier statement concerns our relations with the Yemen. Our recognition of the Yemen is a matter of who is in control. This has always been our traditional test, but, pending recognition, we are asking for trouble in an already disturbed area by our conduct of Anglo-Yemen relations. We do not any longer supply arms to the Imam, we are told, but it would be interesting to know when that stopped. [Interruption.] The Prime Minister does not always speak for Egypt, but he does speak for our colonial position there.
Can we be told whether there are in Aden itself recruiting depots, ostensibly passport offices, for the Imamite forces? Is it not a fact that charter aircraft fly recruits via Beihan to the Royalist forces? If we really seek peace and stability in Southern Arabia and in the Middle East generally we shall have to come to terms with the facts of Middle Eastern life, which include President Nasser. I agree fully with the right hon. Member for Enfield, West, who, tonight, was laboriously working his passage back, in what I thought was the best point in his speech, when he was taking Senator Fulbright's speech and applying it mutatis mutandis to the Middle East. What he said there should be taken to heart very much by the Prime Minister.
My last point on the Middle East relates to economic aid. Our answer to Yemeni pressures—and I do not believe that A1 Asnag or his followers want to come under Yemeni suzerainty—is to make Aden a shop window of economic advance. There is no time now to read a number of things which I wanted to quote, but the Daily Mail for example, according to its man on the spot, reports
1408
that the Colonial Secretary, when he was in Aden, seems to have realised this, a bit late.
"… with a bit of luck",
says the correspondent,
"Britain has just enough time left to atone for a lamentable lack of foresight in this part of the Arab world. I understand Mr. Duncan Sandys has admitted that the British Government failed to provide the economic stimulus essential to the success of the South Arabian Federal Government.'
If the right hon. Gentleman reads that cutting—perhaps his missed it when he was away—he will find a long succession of failures in quite small economic help.
As the Sunday Times put it:
"Despairing irrigation engineers here are idle from lack of the few thousands of pounds by which vast areas could be transformed in a year."
We are told by the Federal Foreign Minister that
"In the 130 years we have been under British protection only 11 miles of tarmac road has been built"—
a pace of road building which only Scotland, I think, can match.
If any of us needs proof of the importance of economic advance, we have had our warning with the presence of Mr. Khrushchev at the opening of the Aswan Dam. That was a triumph for him. As the Daily Telegraph said:
"Nobody can deny Mr. Khrushchev his great hour at Aswan."
It was a triumph that the West let him have through the petulance and lack of foresight of John Foster Dulles and our support of him and the whole duplicity and lunacy of Suez. I hope that we have learned the lessons of the Aswan opening and that we recognise the need for more imaginative policies than those which we are pursuing. I hope that we all recognise that the individual bravery of our troops in the hills, and that all the Hunters, rockets and 1,000-1b. bombs will not do the job that economic advancement, aid and development can alone do.
Before I conclude, I want briefly to refer to one or two other points which have been raised in the debate. The first is South Africa. The reaction of all sections of opinion in this country to the outcome of the Rivonia trial and all, that it means transcends the ability of any of us to find words to express what we feel about this situation. The

1409
Government voted for the resolution which pledged all nations to do everything in their power to put pressure upon South Africa. We are bound by that resolution. I hope, equally, that all of us, as a nation, will throw our whole weight behind the proposals of the United Nations special committee for a national convention in South Africa.
Mere protests and diplomatic démarches, however, are not enough. The Opposition have never supported, and do not support, the idea of unilaterally-imposed economic sanctions. I have always felt that the idea of an international blockade, too, would be appropriate only in conditions in which South Africa by external action endangered the peace of nations, whether vis-á-vis Southern Rhodesia, the Protectorates, or South-West Africa.
One thing however, is clear. The equivocal position of Her Majesty's Government on the export of arms is steadily lowering our influence, both in the Commonwealth and in a wider setting. When I called for an embargo, 15 months ago, I was violently attacked by the Tory Press and Tory Ministers in this House. It was only after the United States had imposed its embargo, in common with almost every Commonwealth country, and after the United Nations voted clearly against arms shipments, that Ministers then began to claim that this had been their policy all along.
The Prime Minister clings now to two lines of defence. The first is a distinction between arms supplied for internal repression and those supplied for defence against external attack. Two years ago, I demanded from this Box a ban on the shipment of tear gas and tear gas making equipment, but I was refused by the right hon. Gentleman. Was that required for defence against external aggression? What about helicopters, the troop carriers and the small arms used at Sharpeville?
The Prime Minister's second line relates to Simonstown. As I have made clear a number of times, we have never sought to denounce Simonstown. The Prime Minister knows well, however, that the schedule of supplies under the Simonstown Agreement expired in December, 1963, and there is no more left to ship. Nor did that schedule
1410
include aircraft or supplies for the Army or the police.
I asked the Prime Minister this afternoon, but he did not answer me—I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell us now—whether, during the period that the right hon. Gentleman has been Prime Minister—I will not press him about the period when he had a direct responsibility as Foreign Secretary—no arms of any kind have been shipped to South Africa outside the list specified in the schedule to the Simonstown Agreement. I think that we are entitled to an answer to that.
While I am on arms, I turn to the singular agreement Her Majesty's Government have negotiated, or are in the course of negotiating, with General Franco. Before the war there were deep differences in the House about the Spanish civil war, and it so happens that the three most senior members of the present Government were strongly and personally identified in those days with the point of view which this side of the House, and, I think, a substantial number of people in the country, regarded as wrong.
But that is all a quarter of a century ago and perhaps right hon. Gentlemen, in common with many other features of the landscape, have changed. They may have, but Franco has not, and all of us on this side—indeed, I believe on all sides—look forward to a change which cannot now be long delayed. When that occurs we shall be ready and willing to welcome Spain into the comity of nations. To supply valuable information about naval vessels, radar and other equipment to a democratic Spain is one thing. To supply it to Fascist Spain is quite another. The Government's policy towards Spain should be the same as it is to Eastern Europe and Cuba, where we support the line that the Government take. Trade, yes. We do not use trade boycotts to underline dislikes or differences. But arms, no.
A few months ago right hon. and hon. Members tried to create trouble about what a London newspaper had inaccurately reported in a speech of mine about transferring the Navy to the United Nations. This particular plot came unstuck. But now, apparently, naval secrets are to be sold to Spain.

1411
Are we as hard up as all this? Must a country whose economy, according to the Prime Minister, has seldom, if ever, been stronger sell drawings and details of frigates to a Fascist country for a few million pounds? It is not even creating much employment in British shipyards. We are building up the Spanish Navy at the very time when right hon. Gentlemen have allowed the Royal Navy, in terms of effectiveness and number of vessels in commission, to sink to an all-time low. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] Yes.
In our last debate on the Navy Estimates we were told that the total naval strength in the Mediterranean was three destroyers or frigates, four small wooden coastal minesweepers, two submarines, used for anti-submarine training, six more minesweepers and an antisubmarine frigate in reserve—all these and the commander-in-chief's yacht. So low have we sunk as a result of Ministers' nuclear posturings that all we can do now is to try to get money by an arms deal with Spain.
I ask the Foreign Secretary one last question before he speaks. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We agreed the time between us. Let the right hon. Gentleman tell us—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] Hon. Members opposite are taking time out of the Foreign Secretary's speech. I am prepared to stay here until I have finished. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] You are taking the right hon. Gentleman's time.
Mr. William Ross: Do you want to hear the Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Wilson: Has the right hon. Gentleman received from the Franco Government a withdrawal of their claim on Gibraltar? Has he made that a condition of the arms deal? The House is entitled to an answer to that.
Now I yield to the Foreign Secretary, so that he can make his speech. I hope that we shall have from the right hon. Gentleman an answer to that question and an answer to the questions on South Africa, the mixed-manned force and the Common Market. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite are taking the Foreign Secretary's time, not me. We should like an answer—[Interruption.] I intend to finish this sentence. We should like an
1412
answer to the questions which my right hon. Friends and hon. Friends have put to the right hon. Gentleman in what is the last foreign affairs debate in this 13-year-old Conservative Administration.
9.35 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. R. A. Butler): First of all, I would like to pay my tribute to the two maiden speakers who took part in the debate and if I do not say more about them it is because I have very little time in which to reply. I assure my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles) that we greatly appreciated his references to the British Armed Forces in peacetime, which, as he said, form an important part of our foreign policy. The Leader of the Opposition, in his somewhat electric speech, did at least pay tribute to our Forces, as he has done before, and has not been put off that important recognition. We ourselves recognise that, throughout the world, our Forces have performed vital service.
In answer to the hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. Healey), I will refer to helicopters, for I must take all the points quickly as they come. We are taking steps to augment our tactical lift capacity which, by the first few months of next year, will be approximately half as great again as it is at present. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation announced on 18th March, we are buying 150 light helicopters which, I am sure, will have their effect in supplementing the Forces where they are most needed.
In relation to the Leader of the Opposition's point about the diagnosis of the debate, I think that there has been general agreement. I am glad to see that he agrees so warmly in his diagnosis with the diagnosis I myself gave yesterday. The only diagnosis I do not accept is when he refers to the fact that there is preoccupation with Labour policy. I hope that there will be more preoccupation with Labour policy between now and the General Election. The more we study it and the more we explain it the more certain we are to be returned.
We accept the right hon. Gentleman's diagnosis in relation to the Sino-Soviet dispute, to the changes in the Soviet Union, to his remarks about my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford

1413
(Sir W. Churchill) and to consumer demand in the Soviet Union. All these I included in my opening speech yesterday, about which he made such pejorative remarks. I need say no more about them now, particularly as I referred to the very thing that the right hon. Gentleman referred to—the de-Stalinisation of the Soviet régime, which he himself, with his marked ability, pointed out was one of the great features of the Soviet Union. I therefore do not need to dwell very much upon the right hon. Gentleman's opening remarks because they followed so closely my own of yesterday in opening the debate. I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says about Laos. We are still in discussion with the Soviet and Polish Governments about the Polish proposals.
I would like to make some remarks about Cyprus, but first I would say, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question about British Guiana, that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has assured me that his request will receive consideration. This being a foreign affairs debate, however, I will not go into further detail about British Guiana.
I noticed that, despite the forecast of his speech—and he referred to forecasts of mine—the right hon. Gentleman has not devoted any time at all to the Common Market or Europe. Having prepared a very voluminous reply I shall not need to use it at all. All I need say is that we are not committed to Europe in any way. I have attended two meetings of the Western European Union and two of the N.A.T.O. Council, and the matter of our rejoining the European Community is not practical politics and not open to us.
Mr. Ross: Rejoining?
Mr. Butler: The situation, therefore, is that if this matter is ever raised by Europe, we shall come to the House and make our statement to the House in the way that we ought to do. We shall do that if the matter is raised again and request the agreement of the House on all aspects of the matter before we take any further action.
I would only say that we remain—and I should like to make this clear at the outset of my remarks—keen and ardent Europeans. We believe that European unity is vital to the success of the West, not only in nuclear strength but in economic
1414
and political strength. I have made it quite plain that if there is to be any political union in Europe, we wish to be in on the ground floor and to be in on any discussions which may take place on that subject.
I had also prepared a most invaluable portion of my remarks, which I can also jettison, on the right hon. Gentleman's journey to Moscow, which, after all the éclat of that journey with his right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), I had thought that the right hon. Gentleman would have referred to in a speech of nearly 40 minutes. However, I am afraid that he has not given us the benefit of his advice on the matter of disarmament, raised by the Prime Minister, or on any others. I am glad that the right hon. Member for Smethwick gave us at least the benefit of his advice on these matters. I will say only that the right hon. Gentlemen followed the proper tradition of keeping the Government of the day fully informed of their activities, and we are very grateful to them for telling us about all their episodes.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick raised several matters, namely, European security, Indo-China—where I am co-Chairman with Mr. Gromyko—disarmament, non-dissemination, minimum nuclear deterrent, collateral measures of disarmament. I shall attempt to pursue these matters in the course of my visit to Moscow at the end of the Session.
I want to make one or two references to Cyprus, not mentioned in the right hon. Gentleman's speech, about which he asked me one specific question and which has excited a great deal of interest in the House. I should like to answer his question immediately. There is no question of the evacuation of any of our sovereign bases in Cyprus. This issue has not been raised, has not been discussed, and we are not prepared to discuss it.
I have been much impressed by the anxiety expressed on both sides of the House about the situation in Cyprus and in particular the manner in which the mandate of the United Nations is being carried out. The United Nations force is in Cyprus by virtue of the resolution of 4th March, and the directive to the commander I placed in the Library at the request of the House.

1415
In view of the pile-up of arms, the obstruction of roads, the lack of ability of the force to take any effective action, I have decided that further representations should be made to U Thant, the Secretary-General, before the resumption of the mandate takes place. I have decided to convey to him the feelings of the House as expressed in this debate. Being himself a good parliamentarian, I think that he will understand the strength of our feeling.
I have also been asked about the disappearance of Major Macey and his driver, Driver Platt. We have made representations not only to the United Nations, which is primarily responsible for finding him, but to President Makarios. This evening, I have had from President Makarios a message to say that he regretted that he did not let us know sooner his regret at this event and his determination to try to find Major Macey and to investigate this matter. That is the latest news that I am able to give the House, and I assure the House that we shall follow this up. I say that, in particular, to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), who raised this matter in the course of the debate. We are also particularly upset by the apparent inability of the Cypriot authorities to control their own extremist elements.
It is against that background that we have been considering the future of the United Nations British Force in Cyprus. We have informed U Thant that before entering into a firm commitment to provide a British contingent for a further period we shall wish to be satisfied that its continued presence is desired in the island by all those concerned. I should also like to inform the House that we shall not take a final view about the British contingent continuing when the mandate is renewed until we have answers to all the matters that I have put to U Thant.
With regard to the future settlement, my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) raised all the different possibilities in the course of the debate. They were raised also by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley), and by others who have taken part in the debate. The House
1416
will not expect the British Government at this stage to opt for any particular solution. Conversations are to take place in Washington between Mr. Inonu, Mr. Papandreou, the Prime Ministers of Turkey and Greece, respectively, with the American President and Administration. What the British Government want to make sure is that arising out of those discussions some extra force or power may be able to be given to the mediator, and that the mediator then may be able to perform his normal function in coming forward at the United Nations with a solution which is both lasting and fair.
During the course of the debate we have had many references to the Turkish Government, and I think that we should try to remember that there are two sides to this problem. The Turks are in the minority, and as such should be respected, but it is also important to find a solution which satisfies the aspirations of the island. It is in our view, therefore, essential that the minority wishes should be respected, that something practical, and if necessary physical, should be found to provide satisfaction for them, and that at the same time the mediator should come forward with a solution which is lasting in this unfortunate and unhappy island.
I now come to the right hon. Gentleman's reference to Aden. As the right hon. Gentleman made reference to Fort Harib, the only answer that I shall give is that since that episode, in which we showed our determination, there has been no repetition of the invasion of our territory, or any incursion whatever. Whatever views may be held on that subject, I think it proves that we acted in the right way.
The right hon. Gentleman then went on to say that he accepted the base in Aden, and I should like to say that we are very gratified that so much support has been given to our base in Aden, for one reason or another.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to my absence in Mull. Perhaps in future we can exchange post-cards between us, between the Scilly Isles where he resides, and the Isle of Mull. I should be glad if we could exchange reminiscences about the means of transport from these islands. Perhaps we could do something with our various right hon. Friends to make them better.

1417
As regards the situation in Aden, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, a conference is sitting of the rulers of the Federation. The rulers of the Federation—sheiks; as they are called—have themselves put forward proposals for constitutional advance and constitutional improvement. This, I think, is an advance. I do not think that I can go into details about the conference which is at present sitting in Marlborough House, but in regard to Aden itself, one of the reasons why the Aden Legislature is not fully representative is that certain elements boycotted the last election, and people who boycott an election cannot complain if they are not represented.
Elections are to take place in Aden this autumn, in the same way as other elections are to take place in this country and America. I hope that as a result of that there will be more political fluidity to please the right hon. Gentleman.
I turn now to the question of the Radfan trouble, which was referred to by the hon. Member for Leeds, East. Obviously it is the wish of my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary that the tribes of the Radfan should return to their normal cultivations now that the war there has been virtually won. I have to tell the House that the Federal Government are paying subsidies and subsistence to the refugees from the Radfan area. That is an indication of the wish of the Federal. Government to help the refugees who have had to leave their lands in that area.
The right hon. Gentleman himself referred to the need of a massive programme of economic and social development in the whole area. That is being undertaken under the guidance of my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary, not only in respect of roads, but also health, education and other subjects. I agree with the hon. Member for Leeds, East in his long speech on the subject this afternoon, that we should make this a vital feature of our policy in the Federation.
I want to answer the question raised about the petition. I have read the article in The Guardian today, and I must deal with it in full. It is alleged that in the autumn of 1963 the British High Commissioner in Aden brought pressure to bear on the Radfan tribes
1418
to swear allegiance to the Amir of Dhala, thereby bringing them into the Federation by the back door. In fact those tribes swore allegiance to the Amir of Dhala at the time of his accession in 1955, and were not asked to renew their oath at any time thereafter.
Shaikh Seif Hassan, who is alleged to have protested that he was forced into the Federation, is one of the representatives of Dhala in the Federal Council, and is still receiving a salary as such. Since the article appeared in The Guardian and the matter was raised at the Box this afternoon there has not been time for me to trace the petition that had been referred to, but I have been assured that it has nothing to do with the shaikh's arrest. His arrest was ordered by the Federal Government after the interception of a letter from him and other Quatabi leaders to President Sallal of the Yemeni Republic, in which he offered to join in the rebellion provided he was sent sufficient arms and money.
The general suggestion that this alleged incident in October provoked the outbreak of the Radfan rebellion is obviously untrue, since the trouble started several months earlier, in July. That is my answer to this allegation.
I do not want to leave out any matters raised by the right hon. Gentleman, so I shall now come to the question of arms for South Africa. The right hon. Gentleman asked the Prime Minister whether any arms were allowed to go to South Africa from this country other than those listed in the Annexe to the Simons-town Agreement, and for purposes of greater accuracy I have brought with me a copy of the Agreement. It relates only to certain naval vessels, which are not mentioned in the Annexe but are in Paragraph 3 of the Agreement, and attached to the letters. Anyway, I have it here, and we can exchange views on it afterwards.
We reserve the right to supply arms to South Africa for the purpose of self-defence against external aggression, under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter and for the defence of the sea route round the Cape in order to fulfil the purposes of the Simonstown Agreement. We do not supply South Africa with arms for the purpose of the enforcement of apartheid.

1419
If the Simonstown Agreement is regarded as important—and my hon. Friends and I regard it as important—and if our view is that the strategic needs for it remain strong, we must obviously continue to be prepared to provide arms which are necessary for the support of Simonstown and for the self-defence of the country. It is unreasonable to think that we can have a total arms embargo of arms to South Africa and still expect that country to continue with the Simonstown Agreement. That would be quite impossible.
Our answer, therefore, is that the arms are not limited—and this is answering the right hon. Gentleman's question directly—to the Schedule in the Agreement, but are related to the arms necessary for the defence of South Africa under Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations. The right hon. Gentleman—
Miss. Barbara Castle rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Miss. Castle: Can the Foreign Secretary give the House an assurance that this country is not supplying any spare parts of the Saracen tanks or other equipment that is clearly related to the South African Government's policy of apartheid?
Mr. Butler: I made inquiries before coming to the House this evening. We are not exporting tanks and so I presume that we are not exporting parts. If I may, I should like notice of that question so that I can give an accurate reply.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to arms for Spain. Of course, what strikes us on this occasion, as on many occasions in the past, and in the days when I used to be Under-Secretary of State at the Foreign Office, the right hon. Gentleman persists in confounding British policy with Labour prejudices. This is not the way to conduct the foreign policy of a great country.
In answering Questions yesterday, or rather on Monday, I referred to the Spanish arms deal and I made quite clear then that we follow exactly the same rule in sending or delivering arms to Spain, or giving facilities for arms to Spain, as we do with any other country in the world.
Mr. H. Wilson: Eastern Europe?
Mr. Butler: We follow the same rule. In Eastern Europe we are banned by the arrangement against strategic delivery. In the case of Spain we follow the same rule as we do for countries not within the bloc. That is the right policy to adopt and it is taken on the understanding that these arms are not likely, or intended, to be used against other countries or for aggression. I say firmly to the right hon. Gentleman opposite and to his hon. Friends that if we had not accepted to go in for this engagement, our competitors even among our allies would have had the job instead of us That would have meant a loss of many millions of pounds to our Exchequer.
I appeal to the House on this before I conclude. My appeal is that the arms for Spain deal has not yet been concluded. We have received no final arrangement or answer from the Spanish Government and I only hope that this exchange in the House will not make the deal impossible.
It is natural that many speakers should dwell upon our difficulties rather than our successes. As the House will have realised—
Mr. H. Wilson: Gibraltar?
Mr. Butler: As regards Gibraltar, I will answer that immediately. There has been no raising of the Gibraltar question in relation to this deal. We still adhere to our attitude to Gibraltar in relation to Spain—
Mr. Wilson: Does Spain?
Mr. Butler: —but the matter has not been raised in the course of these negotiations. Those are the facts. The right hon. Gentleman asked what are the facts. As I am responsible for any exchanges in foreign policy I can tell him what the truth is, and that is the truth.
The House will realise from my opening remarks that we are deeply conscious of the changing world scene which flows from the great events of West and East—de-colonisation in the West and de-Stalinisation in the East. Many sections of the House have, I think, shown broad agreement on the general lines of British foreign policy and this debate has, therefore, been of

1421
considerable encouragement to the Government. We have found that we have the broad support of the House as a whole. We find in the negotiations with Moscow that on nine of the eleven points we were already making progress before the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition took them to Moscow himself. There is, therefore, considerable identity of view whether in relation to the Moscow visit or whether in relation to foreign policy as a whole. All I would say now, at the conclusion of a foreign affairs debate wound up by the Foreign Secretary, is that the more we can assume a national posture in our foreign policy the better, and for such I am obliged to the House.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Martin Redmayne): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

YOUNG PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).

Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to extend the kinds of occupations in the case of which the hours of
1422
employment of young persons employed therein are regulated by the Young Persons (Employment) Act 1938 and to increase the penalty for an offence against Section I of that Act, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys so provided by way of Rate-deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland.—[Mr. Woodhouse.]
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

ANIMALS (RESTRICTION OF IMPORTATION) [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).

Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to restrict the importation of live animals of certain kinds, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any sums required to defray or contribute towards the expenses of the Advisory Committee on the Importation of Animals established under that Act.—[Mr. Chataway.]
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

AGRICULTURE (HILL SHEEP)
10.3 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Peart: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Hill Sheep (England and Wales) Scheme 1964 (S.I., 1964, No. 656), dated 5th May 1964, a copy of which was laid before this House on 12th May, be annulled.
I move this Motion with the object of asking the Parliamentary Secretary to explain the impact of the hill sheep subsidy. In explaining it he may be able to declare what will be the general policy of the Government on this very important part of hill farming.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Am I right in taking it that it would be convenient to the hon. Member for this and the next Motion:
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Hill Sheep Subsidy Payment (England and Wales) Order 1964 (S.I., 1964, No. 657), dated 5th May, 1964, a copy of which was laid before this House on 12th May, be annulled.
to be taken together?
Mr. Peart: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because one deals with a scheme which arises from the Order which is mentioned in the other Motion. The two are interrelated.
I ask the Government to declare their intentions. The Hill Sheep Subsidy Payment Order arose from a very important Act passed by the Labour Government, the Hill Farming Act, 1946. The Act was amended by the Livestock Rearing Act, 1951. Under this legislation there is power to pay a subsidy. Statutory Instrument No. 656—the Hill Sheep (England and Wales) Scheme 1964—gives details of the scheme presented by the Minister. This is extremely important.
In the White Paper of 1964—the Annual Review and Determination of Guarantees—mention was made of aid to our hill flocks. I will not delay the House by quoting it, but it contained interesting figures which show the support given to this very important part of British agriculture. We see from Appendix V that in 1955–56 the aid was
1424
£1·1 million, which rose to £1·4 million in 1962–63. The latest forecast is that in 1963–64 we shall spend about £2·4 million, which it is estimated will rise in 1964–65 to £2·5 million.
I approve of this subsidy. This is a very important production grant which gives aid to an important section of agriculture mainly concerning our northern areas and Wales. I am glad to see Cumberland mentioned in the scheme, and that it is listed in the Schedule. Cumberland and Westmorland are generally linked, and both are mentioned. It also applies to Derby, Devonshire, Durham, Hereford, Lancaster, Monmouth, Northumberland—
Mr. Harold Davies: What about Staffordshire?
Mr. Peart: Stafford is also in the Schedule. My hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) attends assiduously in the interests of small farmers, and he will appreciate the importance of this subsidy.
I ask: what is the Government's intention? I have given an estimate of the future cost of the subsidy as shown in the Annual Review which was agreed between the Government and those representing producers. But what is the Government's broad policy? Do they believe that the hill farming subsidy is working, or do they think that something new is needed? I remember a debate not long ago on the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, when it was suggested that we should have a special commission of inquiry into the hill farming areas. Has this committee of inquiry achieved any results? Has a report been submitted to the Ministry? Will any action be taken on it? Is the hill farming area to be regarded as a special area of development? Do we believe that the Hill Farming Act, 1946, and the amending legislation to which I have referred is sufficient to stimulate activity in these areas?
I do not want to go wide in the debate—indeed, I should be out of order in doing so—but we have a right to know what is the Government's policy. Are we merely to have schemes submitted every year which will fulfil the obligations of the 1946 Act and the amending legislation which flowed from it, or are

1425
we to have a new attempt by the Government to bring aid to these areas? I am always anxious to bring aid to these areas, not just because I have a constituency in Cumberland, which is included in the area which we are discussing, but because the development of our flocks is important.
One important section of the White Paper illustrates the growth of imports as compared with the home production of mutton and lamb. In view of recent events, it is important to stimulate home production. Therefore, any subsidy, any forward-looking policy in respect of hill farming areas, must receive the blessing of all hon. Members. I served my Minister as a P.P.S. when he introduced the 1946 Act. I am glad that it was a Labour Government who brought aid to these areas. I am proud of what my Government did when I was a very humble Parliamentary Private Secretary.
Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have sought to develop much of the work created by a Labour Administration. Where do we go now? Are the Government serious about a major inquiry into hill farming areas? We could have debated tonight many other Orders affecting the industry, but I should be out of order if I discussed them. There is great anxiety in the farming world on this, as the hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) will agree.
Have the Government a policy? If so, is it purely a policy of expediency? Is this a matter which we debate merely once a year on the Annual Price Review? This Measure comes from the Price Review. Shall we have a forward-looking policy to develop our sheep industry—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but surely this scheme is merely to give effect to arrangements for continuing subsidy payments.
Mr. Peart: I accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
I am asking what is the policy behind the Government's development of the subsidy arrangement. I could go into greater detail on the scheme. I have avoided doing so to assist the House. The scheme deals with subsidy payments
1426
on a shearling ewe or any ewe. It describes the sheep. I am glad, because of my constituency interest, that Herd-wicks are mentioned. The scheme goes into great detail in describing flocks, the standard rate, and the reduced rate. It would be wrong of me to get involved in too much detail.
Without trespassing on your good nature, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am sure that you would agree that I am entitled to some indication of Government policy We are dealing with a very important hill sheep subsidy which involves an important element of Exchequer payment. It is surely right to ask what the Government's intentions are; I do no more than that. I do not ask the Parliamentary Secretary to go into too much detail. I ask him to have confidence in the industry.
I urge that there be no curtailment of the subsidy. There should be an attempt to do something more for an area that has been neglected. We tend to forget that these people are subject to greater hazards from the weather than lowland farmers. I ask the Government to be sympathetic. In view of a promise which was given when the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act was in Committee, I ask the Government whether they have carried out the survey to which I referred and, if so, what conclusions they have reached.
I will not advise my hon. Friends to divide the House on this Prayer. I am using this means of raising this matter to enable hon. Members to probe and so find out what are the Government's intentions. I wish every aid to be given to this important section of British agriculture and, in this desire, I am sure that I carry all hon. Members with me.
10.16 p.m.
Mr. R. H. Turton: The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) has placed us in some difficulty, because he put a great many questions which were out of order and which it would be clearly out of order to try to answer. I am sure that he agrees that these subsidies have resulted in there being a tremendous improvement in conditions in the last 15 years. I give Lord Williams of Barnburgh full credit for initiating them, remembering

1427
that he had the unanimous support of my party when in opposition.
I rise tonight to ask two questions on the administration of these subsidies. Paragraph 9 of the Hill Sheep (England and Wales) Scheme, 1964, states that a condition of making a subsidy payment is that the sheep are
"… kept on hill land under natural conditions in accordance with the recognised practice of hill sheep farming".
Sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 9 states:
"The Minister may treat a flock as satisfying the requirements of the preceding paragraph"—
which I quoted—
"if, where any such requirement is not satisfied, the management of the flock in that respect conforms, in his opinion, to the recognised practice of hill sheep farming in the district …"
One of the developments in hill sheep farming in recent years is the need for hill sheep farmers to have a more careful watch over their sheep than they needed to have in the past. That means that they sometimes have their sheep in the inby land for certain periods. In the old days there was less stealing of sheep—remembering, of course, that it was once a capital offence to steal a sheep.
I have spoken to constituents who have been at a disadvantage because they need to have a more careful watch over their sheep, and, to do so, must bring them from the hill on to the inby land. This has resulted in some of them being disallowed the hill sheep subsidy. This has resulted in some dissatisfaction because it has meant that one hill sheep farmer has appeared to have been treated differently from another. This is one of those occasions when the matter could easily be better explained by the Ministry's officers.
It must be remembered that these hill sheep farmers are all in very much the same state of farming. Often it has been the small men who have been penalised and I urge the Minister to look at this matter again. I have drawn it to his attention in correspondence. The Ministry must realise that in some of these areas it is necessary for hill sheep farmers to have their sheep under greater supervision than was the case in the past.
The second point I wish to raise concerns paragraph 13, where the conditions for making a subsidy payment are stated.
1428
Here again, there is some dissatisfaction among hill sheep fanners because they frequently receive visits, sometimes too frequently, from Ministry officers and they have come to expect, as a matter of right, to receive an application for a subsidy payment. They have normally received this form, just as we receive the 4th June return. They fill it up, and in due course receive the hill sheep subsidy. If, for some reason, they are not given that application form then, sometimes because of very reprehensible neglect, they are late in sending it in and are disallowed the subsidy. That seems unfair.
It also happens that a farmer may one year be disallowed a subsidy payment. After the Ministry's officer has looked at the flock and said, "It will be perfectly all right, you will get the subsidy next year" the man expects to receive an application form by post. If it does not come, as happened in my constituent's case, the application is made too late, the subsidy is disallowed, and no letters from the Member of Parliament to the Parliamentary Secretary result in the redress of that grievance.
Talking to hill sheep farmers, I have found these to be real minor worries, and I think that the Ministry should so improve administration as to ensure that when someone from the N.A.A.S. has been on the farm and knows that the man has a hill flock, the farmer should receive his application form. If he is not qualified to receive the subsidy it does not matter, because the application will be disallowed in due course, but it is wrong that these people should not be sent the application form. After all, one even gets an application form sent one for a driving licence. These hill sheep farmers are entitled to this measure of service from the Ministry. I hope that my hon. Friend will look into this question, in view of the changing practice in hill farming of having more sheep on inby-land because of the danger from sheep stealers.
10.22 p.m.
Mr. Clifford Kenyon: I have to declare an interest as a hill sheep farmer. What has always puzzled me is the way in which applications are made and examination of the hill sheep farm takes place. Taking the present application, we have to state the number

1429
of sheep we held on 2nd December, 1963. The application form is sent to the farmers in May, 1964—on this occasion we ourselves received it about the middle of May. The examination of the sheep takes place in August. The number of sheep we held on 2nd December, 1963, and the number of sheep we will hold in August, 1964, may differ quite a lot.
Losses resulting from dogs worrying sheep have become a regular occurrence, and last year we found a difference of 46 between the numbers in December and August on that account alone. There are also the ordinary losses that take place at lambing time. There may be only a few lost in this way, but the number may be rather more in a bad season. Then, as the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) said, sheep stealing is becoming more prevalent and we lose a number in that way. There is also death by such natural causes as enterotoxaemia.
When August comes round and the inspector comes to number the sheep it is absolute guesswork. He cannot say whether the farmer is telling the truth about the number of sheep worried or stolen and about the deaths which have taken place. According to the Order he must make an allowance. He must add and must deduct, but on what basis will he add and deduct? I submit to the Parliamentary Secretary that some other method should be found to count the sheep in December.
If this is the number of sheep which the farmer must declare in December, let them be counted as near as possible to the date when the number has to be declared, otherwise there can be all kinds of "fiddling"; and I know that fiddling is taking place. I feel that the Ministry is very lax in sending out the application forms for the December number in May and then having the count between May and September. This is a point which should be considered far more seriously than it has in the past.
Another point concerns the half-rate flock subsidy. I know that the Minister has had some difficulty about this. The Parliamentary Secretary knows my views on this question. I have expressed them
1430
in Committee. I disagree with the half-rate flock subsidy. The point is that the hill farmer puts to his ewes a lowland ram and, therefore, he does not breed the true hill lambs. He produces fat lambs. The purpose of putting a lowland ram to hill ewes is to obtain earlier fat lambs which fetch a far better price in the market than the ordinary true-bred hill lamb.
The farmer gains in two ways. He gains from the better price for his fat lambs and from obtaining the half subsidy. The purpose of the subsidy in the first instance was to encourage the breeding of true hill sheep which can run on the hill all the year round if needed. The subsidy defeats its purpose when one begins to apply it to the fat lambs, and the fat lamb breeder gains, in the difference between the price for fat lambs and the price for hill lambs, more than the subsidy itself provides. This point, therefore, should be examined very carefully, because the purpose of the Government is defeated in the sense that one does not breed a true hill lamb.
30.30 p.m.
Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: One point which requires clarification arises in paragraph 8 of the scheme, entitled "Hill Land". It appears to have two completely different interpretations. It reads:
"In this Scheme the expression 'hill land' means mountain and hill land in the areas specified in the Schedule to this Scheme which is suitable only for use for the maintenance of sheep of a hardy kind …"
Those words could have two meanings. They could mean that the only kind of sheep suitable are sheep of a hardy kind, or that the land is not suitable for anything other than sheep—in other words, that it is not suitable for hill cattle.
As there are those two completely different interpretations possible, I would be grateful if my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary would let us know definitively which interpretation is intended to apply.
10.31 p.m.
Mr. Harold Davies: I am glad that the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) raised the question of the interpretation of paragraph 8 of the scheme, particularly as he is a practical sheep farmer who knows what he is talking about.

1431
I should like to refer to one matter which concerns the area which I represent, and which was raised by the right hen. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) a few moments ago. I refer to the words "according to custom". In areas like North Staffordshire—and it applies to Wales, too—it is found that as towns expand and housing is moved further into the country, it becomes more difficult for the small man to maintain profitable sheep farming because of the worrying of sheep by dogs. As a result, the farmer is compelled to bring his sheep down from the hill land. I hope my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will have something to say on that matter.
I am sure that I speak for hon. Members on both sides of the House when I say that we wish to see the encouragement of the expansion of sheep farming, and that we welcome these Statutory Instruments.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. Roderic Bowen: I wish to reinforce some of the points that have already been made. Some dissatisfaction is felt by those whose applications for subsidy are rejected, in the sense that the basis of the rejection is not always made clear, whether it be by reason of the provisions of paragraphs 6, 8 or 9. I suggest that a greater effort should be made to explain the precise reason why a claim is rejected.
Obviously, a line has to be drawn somewhere, but the fact that a person happens to be just on the wrong side of the line makes it all the more desirable for an explanation to be given to that person why he is on the wrong side of the line. It is clearly not always easy to know where to draw the line, but everything possible should be done to avoid creating dissatisfaction as the result of a decision for which the local community can find no rhyme or reason.
10.35 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Scott-Hopkins): I should like to answer the various points which have been made during this rather short debate on this important subsidy. My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) questioned me
1432
about paragraph 8 of the scheme and whether it refers to the sheep or to the hill. I hope my hon. Friend is not confusing this definition with any other definition of hill land for the hill cow subsidy or the like, because they are different definitions. In this case, it refers to the land as being suitable only for hill sheep.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) asked two specific points, of both of which he has given me notice during recent weeks when he has made known to me his strong feeling on the matter. His first point concerns the fact that because of sheep stealing or for some other reason, farmers in his area bring down their sheep from the hills at an earlier date and probably keep them down longer after lambing than has been the recognised custom in the past. My right hon. Friend said that in some cases, if the sheep had been off the hill for a fairly long time, they do not qualify for the hill sheep subsidy in the years when that subsidy is paid.
Mr. Turton: It is also to see how many sheep have been stolen that farmers tend to collect the sheep and bring them inby and then let them go back again. This point probably has not come out in correspondence.
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: When a farmer brings down his sheep for counting, he does not necessarily have to bring them right down to his in by-land. If a farmer brought them down for counting and put them straight back on to the hill, I am certain that this would be an acceptable practice. It would not be an acceptable practice if a farmer brought his sheep down and kept them for several days on the in by-land and tried to pass it off as a matter of counting the sheep.
The point which must be made clear is that the purpose of the subsidy is to encourage and to maintain hardy hill sheep flocks in hill areas. I understand the concern of my right hon. Friend's constituents, but if the sheep are brought off the hill land for more than the normal period of lambing—which would mean putting them back on the hill again by about 1st June—and they do not go back on the hill by that time, it is extremely difficult to say that the flock is a hill flock which is being maintained on the hill.

1433
That is the stumbling block. As the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen) pointed out, there must be a dividing line. Although I am prepared to be sympathetic in matters of this kind, one must have a dividing line and adhere to it. Above all, there must be fairness as between one farmer and another, as, I am sure, my right hon. Friend will agree. I hope that the House will accept that there must be a set time during which the hill sheep farmer is allowed to bring the sheep off the hill for lambing and so on, but that they must go back on the hill within a reasonable time. If they do not, they must cease to be regarded as a hill flock and. therefore, cease to qualify for the subsidy.
My right hon. Friend's second point concerned the sending out of application forms and their late receipt. He suggested that officials of my Ministry had the duty to ensure that farmers got their forms as of right. He instanced the case of a driving licence where, automatically, if one possesses a licence, a renewal form is sent to one. But equally, where one does not have a driving licence, one does not get an application form, and this subsidy is in precisely the same position. If a farmer received the hill sheep subsidy last year he will get the form this year. If not, he will not get an application form.
Over and above this is the fundamental point that, if a farmer wishes to have the subsidy, it is up to him to claim and to see that he claims correctly and within the time limit which, in fairness as between one farmer and another, we must lay down. I know that my right hon. Friend is ever vigilant in safeguarding public funds and that he will realise the necessity for a time limit.
We must, of course, allow a certain amount of flexibility. We try to be as sympathetic as possible in dealing with late claims and if it is a question of illness, or of the post going wrong, or of administrative faults, then we consider such claims.
Mr. Turton: I think that my hon. Friend is misunderstanding the point. We are not talking about a duty on the Minister, or even a right. We are talking about a courtesy. Where a farmer is in constant association with Ministry officials who are advising him and telling
1434
him, "This year you will not qualify, but you may qualify next year", one would think that it would not be beyond the Ministry's power to see that an application form was sent in such cases at the proper time.
No doubt I was in error in giving my hon. Friend the advantage of pointing out that, if one does not have a driving licence, an application form will not be sent to one, but one would receive a form if the local authority knew that this was the time that one was going to apply for a renewal. It is merely a question of courtesy and I hope that, after the case I have quoted, where a farmer lost his subsidy through what I think was a lack of courtesy on the part of an official, it will not happen again.
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: I have no desire to be discourteous to anyone, nor have my officials. But I must stick to my point. When our advisory officers advise a farmer that perhaps next year he will be in a position to qualify for subsidy, I am quite certain that, at the same time, they add, "Do not forget to send in the form". Indeed, I know that they do.
The fundamental point is that it is the responsibility of the farmer, if he thinks that he qualifies for the subsidy, to make application for it. We give the greatest publicity to this and to the fact that the applications should be in by a certain date. I know that the majority of my right hon. Friend's constituents, like other hill fanners, are fully aware of these rules and do take precautions to see that their applications are in in time. It is only occasionally that we have the difficulties to which my right hon. Friend has referred.
The hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) is an expert and a practical working farmer. As he rightly surmised, I know his views on these matters although I do not necessarily agree with all of them. I listen to him with the greatest interest and read what he writes about them elsewhere.
The hon. Gentleman's first comment was about the qualifying date. As the House knows, the rate of subsidy is determined on the basis of the economics of hill sheep farming during the previous year, so that this year's subsidy takes account of the effects of the winter of

1435
1962–63. The decision whether to pay subsidy on the basis of conditions in 1963, is taken in 1964. The hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out that the appointed day was 2nd December. He knows full well the reason for this appointed day, and there is no dispute between us about that. By that time, the sales and the drafting of the ewes have taken place and most hill sheep farmers have their flocks in regular age groups to qualify for the subsidy.
The hon. Gentleman will also appreciate that the calculation to see whether the subsidy should be paid takes some time, because samples have to be taken over the country to see whether the subsidy is justified on the performance of the past year. Therefore, with the best will in the world one cannot decide whether the subsidy is to be paid until some time in the middle of March. It so happens that this coincides with the normal time for the announcement of the results of the Annual Review.
The application forms are then sent out to the farmers who apply on the basis of the flocks which they had at the qualifying date. The hon. Gentleman commented on the fact that there was a delay between then and the date of inspection, which is during June, July or August, but he knows that that is the right time to see whether the flock is on the hill.
There is the possibility of loss, and the hon. Gentleman mentioned the various hazards which might change the numbers of the flocks between December and inspection time. However, he will remember that during that period comes the application date, which is in May when—and one assumes that the fanners do these things honestly—the farmers will know what they had in their flocks m December. The losses between December and May will not vary all that much unless there are exceptional circumstances, as was the case in 1962–63. As the hon. Gentleman said, my officers have the opportunity and the discretion to make allowances as they are going round.
The hon. Gentleman made the very grave accusation that "fiddles" take place, but my officials take the average conditions in the district and they know what the average losses have been. They
1436
question the farmer concerned and in that way a reasonable figure is reached if there is any discrepancy between an August inspection and the December figure. I maintain that, on the whole, the system is working well and does not need revision, although I am more than prepared to look at it again to see whether it can be improved.
The hon. Gentleman's second comment concerned the half-rate flock. This is an old chestnut, as he knows full well. What it comes to basically is that the hon. Gentleman does not agree with half-rate flocks having the subsidy. I must beg to differ with him about that. As he knows, there are safeguards about the kinds of ewes which can qualify and about the ram used being of the kind laid down in the scheme. There are differences between a full-rate flock and this type of flock which still constitutes a flock kept according to normal hill practices. I accept that some of the lambs coming from flocks of this kind are more suitable—and I emphasise "more suitable"—for fattening than are lambs which come straight from a pure hill flock. I hope that the hon. Gentleman was not mixing up the type of fat lamb which comes from crossing with close wools and the in-country type of lamb. Both types of flock can have up to 15 per cent. of their ewes crossed with a lowland ram and still qualify for subsidy at half rate or full rate. If 15 per cent is exceeded, the flock does not qualify for subsidy at all. I hope that the hon. Gentleman was not confusing the two.
Reverting to the half-rate flock, if we specify the breeds of ram which can be used on the pure hill ewes—and these are still hardy rams, though not as hardy as the pure breed—surely the point of difference between us ought to be resolved. I know that the hon. Gentleman will not be convinced by my argument, and equally I shall not be convinced by his argument either.
I turn briefly to the speech of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart). He made a great point of the fact that the scheme was brought in by his Government in 1946. He knows that in fact the hill sheep subsidy came in in 1940, during the war. There has been little change in the scheme since then. The 1946 Act enshrined the principles

1437
adopted by the Government of the day in 1940, and the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that that was not a Labour Government.
Another question asked by the hon. Gentleman was his usual question about what is the general policy of the Government. This Scheme follows the policy which was started in 1940. It has been carried through since then by successive Governments right up to the present time.
These Statutory Instruments demonstrate the Government's intentions with regard to helping hill sheep. I would be out of order if I were to refer to other kinds of cattle maintained on the hills.
It is extraordinary that no mention has been made tonight of the level of subsidy being paid this year in respect of hill sheep. Last year it was 10s. and this year it has gone up to 25s. That again demonstrates the importance which the Government attach to the position of hill sheep.
As a result of the Annual Review in March various measures were taken to help hill lambs. I think that the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that the Government are continuing the policy, which they have successfully pursued for the past 12 years, of supporting the maintenance of flocks on the hills. The fact that there has been little change in the size of the flocks shows how successful that policy has been in maintaining them in what everybody will agree are difficult conditions and a difficult climate. The farmers and the shepherds have to cope with extremely difficult conditions.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the committee of inquiry. This committee is looking into the whole position of hill farming. The hon. Gentleman knows that we talked about this a year ago, and I am sure that he realises that this is an extremely complex matter.
What I have said illustrates the Government's intention to ensure that the hill flocks are maintained.
Mr. Peart: The committee of inquiry was announced a long time ago. It is incredible that a year has passed since then, and it is only because I forced the Minister to give us some information that we were told anything about it. When will the committee report?
1438
Why has there been such a delay? It is not because of the complexity of the problem. If there is a will to do so the report can be produced quickly.
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: As the hon. Member knows, this is not an easy matter. He must not press me too hard on this. The enquiry does not cover merely the question of hill sheep. There are other matters which it would be out of order to talk about this evening.
Another question concerned supplies of lamb. The hon. Member is aware that this year it is our hope that there will be an increased supply of lamb in the latter part of the year, as flocks have increased. The hon. Member can set his mind at rest about the level of lamb supplies.
I do not want to continue for too long, and I think I have answered the points raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House. Successive Governments have recognised the essential part played by the hill farmer in the pattern of British agriculture. Last year the House authorised us to continue to pay the hill sheep subsidy for a further four years. It is the Government's view that the Orders provide a fair basis for the payment of the subsidy in 1964. I invite the House to reject the Motion. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Workington for saying that he did not intend to ask his hon. Friends to vote against the scheme.
Mr. Peart: I merely used Parliamentary means to raise certain issues which are of importance to a section of our agricultural industry. For the reasons that I have mentioned, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. H. G. DUNSMORE
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Pym.]
10.57 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel J. K. Cordeaux: During this week we have heard a great deal about oppression and injustice suffered by people all over the world—in Cyprus, British Guiana, Greece, Spain, and so on. We often become more excited about cases of

1439
injustice to foreigners than about injustice to our own people, but tonight I want to call the attention of the House to what I consider to be a case of grave injustice, under the law, suffered by a constituent of mine—a Mr. Harold Graham Dunsmore, of 15, Clarence Street, Nottingham. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that he has suffered a grave injustice, because when new evidence was produced about his case my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary ordered the remission of the remainder of his borstal sentence, and also his immediate release.
The main facts of the case are not in dispute, but for the benefit of the House it is right that I should give a brief account of them. This young man is a person of not very stable character at present. He is aged 20, and possibly his character is in some sense influenced by the fact that he suffers from epilepsy. Not long ago, at the end of last summer, he left home to go south, either for a visit or to look for work, and on 25th September he was stopped by two police officers in London and questioned. The time was 2 a.m., an hour at which the police in London are naturally suspicious of people wandering about the streets without any apparent motive.
During the course of the discussion it came about—I think Mr. Dunsmore volunteered information to the police officers—that he was in possession of a cigarette lighter. This was engraved with initials other than his own, and this caused the police officers to be suspicious. As a result, they questioned him about two other objects in his possession—a ring and a wrist watch. The ring also had initials on it other than his own. Mr. Dunsmore gave the police officers his name and address in Nottingham, and I am afraid that that was the last truthful thing he told them that night. He told them not one lie but two successive contradictory lies, concerning the way in which he came into possession of these three objects.
First of all, he said that he had bought them from a friend in Leeds. Next he said that he had bought them from a friend in London. Naturally enough, the police officers were not satisfied with this explanation and told him that he would have to go with them to the police station.
Then he did something more foolish than telling lies to the police. He ran
1440
away from them. Why he behaved so foolishly I do not know, and I do not think that he does himself. The probability is that he was in a complete panic and did not know what he was saying or doing. About 10 days later he came up before the magistrate at Bow Street charged with being in unlawful possession of these three objects, the wrist watch, the ring and the cigarette lighter.
In court he told yet another story about how he came into possession of the articles, but in this case his story as regards at any rate the watch and the ring was true and showed that he was innocent of being in unlawful possession of them. However, he called no evidence in support of his story and a good deal of play was made of the successive lies that he had told about the articles. The result was that he was convicted.
I think it is easy to understand why he called no evidence in his defence. He had not been given bail and had been in custody since the police picked him up. He is not the type of young man capable of looking after himself in conditions of that sort without advice, and he was not prepared to tell his family because he hoped to be acquitted and that they would not need to know anything about the matter.
Also, he was not granted legal aid. I am not sure whether he asked for it on this occasion. I doubt whether he did, but I would say in passing that it seems most unfortunate that the court did not see that he got it. After his conviction, the seriousness of his position apparently came home to him and as a result he told his family what had happened. He lodged an appeal against conviction and applied for legal aid.
The appeal was heard by the County of London Sessions on 23rd November, and his application for legal aid was then refused. I consider, and I am sure that subsequent events have proved this, that the refusal to grant legal aid on that occasion was an absolute disgrace. At the appeal he repeated his story which, as I said, was true in substance about two of the articles, the watch and the ring, and produced another story about the third, the lighter, which was that he had found it the previous summer when out for a walk with his brother.
A certain amount of evidence, not very much, was called on his behalf.

1441
The appeal was dismissed and he was sentenced to borstal training. It was at this point that I was brought into the case as the result of a letter from Mrs. Dunsmore, his mother. I was absent from London at the time and my private secretary forwarded the letter from Mrs. Dunsmore to my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and a month later a reply was received saying that the representations had been carefully considered and inquiry had been made but that no reason could be found for thinking that there had been a miscarriage of justice and that there were no grounds for action on the part of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
The boy's mother then appealed to the People newspaper, which sent an investigating team to Nottingham to make inquiries. I have not the time to go into the details of the inquiries made-or, indeed, the rather complicated details of the way in which Dunsmore actually obtained these articles. The result of the inquiry showed that, as far as the ring and the watch were concerned, he had come into possession of them in a perfectly lawful manner.
I think that great credit is due to the People newspaper for the action which it took and the results which it obtained, though I think that the newspaper would be the first to admit that its task was not a particularly difficult one, certainly not in the same class as the inquiries which it has been making into the way that footballers have been taking bribes. All that the newspaper had to do was to check Dunsmore's story as he had given it in court with the witnesses that he had named. This the newspaper did and obtained signed statements from witnesses. I should like to know why the police did not take action previously to check that story when he told it in court. They would have been in a much easier position to check it than the People.
I want to know particularly why these inquiries were not made as a result of my representations. I was definitely told in the letter of 31st December from the Home Office that inquiry had been made. Did the inquiry include checking Dunsmore's statement? If not, I should like to know what use it was. If Dunsmore had been granted legal aid when he asked for it at his appeal, his
1442
counsel would certainly have seen that these inquiries were made to check his statement and if necessary to have the case remanded in order that that should be done.
On the strength of this new evidence, my right hon. Friend ordered a new inquiry by the police. This fully substantiated the facts established by the People. As a result, my right hon. Friend then issued a statement on 9th May in which he stated that it had been proved that Dunsmore was in lawful possession of two of the three articles—the watch and the cigarette case. As a result, the remainder of his borstal sentence would be remitted and he would be released immediately. He was released the same day.
There remains the third article, the cigarette lighter. After telling lies about it, Dunsmore had said that he found it on a walk with his brother. The only evidence given about that was by his brother. From whom else could it be obtained? It is worth pointing out that the brother, who fully confirmed the story, had not the opportunity of contacting Dunsmore because he was in custody the whole time. No doubt the police made inquiries in an effort to find the owner of the lighter, but did not succeed.
When I raised the question on 4th June in this House and asked if a free pardon could be recommended for Dunsmore, the Home Secretary said that this would not be possible because it was impossible to accept his story as regards the lighter because—this was the effect of his answer—he had already told lies about it. I absolutely refuse to accept that as a good reason, because he had already told two sets of lies about the other two objects and then his third story had been proved absolutely true and had proved his innocence. Surely the obviously likely solution to the business is that exactly the same happened in the case of the cigarette lighter. In a panic he told a lie about that and then told the truth. The only possible evidence that can be produced confirms that.
It may be that he was guilty of stealing by finding the lighter, but it was a very trumpery lighter. My hon. Friend may be able to say what it was worth. I believe it would not be worth more

1443
than £1 when new. How many of us have not been guilty technically of stealing by finding? How many of us, finding a threepenny bit in the street have taken it to a police station; how many of us have put it in our own pocket? In any case, this charge of being in unlawful possession of an object seems to me an exceedingly peculiar charge, and I believe that it is unique in English law. I am open to correction, but I believe that it is the only case in which the accused is required to prove his innocence rather than the prosecution being required to prove his guilt. When all is said and done, how many of us, if challenged, could prove in court that we were in lawful possession of every single object which we owned under £2 in value? I am sure that none of us could.
Firstly, I would ask my hon. Friend for definite answers to a number of points. First, is Dunsmore to be refused a free pardon because on his own statement he is considered guilty of stealing by finding this cheap, trumpery, cigarette lighter? From the reply which I received from my right hon. Friend a week ago, I think not. If not, is a free pardon to be refused to him because his final story about finding the lighter is disbelieved merely because he told lies about it beforehand, remembering that he told lies about the other two objects yet his final story was proved to be entirely true?
Secondly, what was the nature of the inquiries which, I was assured, were made as a result of my representations on 31st December? Did they or did they not include a check on Dunsmore's story which he told in court and which was true? If they did not include that, then I can only assume that they were completely superficial and utterly useless, and I feel that I must say that the statement made to me in the letter on 31st December—that inquiries had been made—was only in order to keep me quiet. As a result, I do not feel that any such general assurance which I ever have in future in a similar case from my right hon. Friend could be accepted.
Although I have been refused an answer to this question once before, I ask it again: why was Dunsmore refused legal aid when he applied for it at the time of his appeal? Does not my hon
1444
Friend agree that if it had been granted to him he could not possibly have been convicted? I do not envy the court concerned which refused to grant that legal aid when it sees the miscarriage of justice which resulted.
I make this plea to my hon. Friend. Nobody who has listened to my very sketchy and imperfect account of this case could doubt that a very grave miscarriage of justice has occurred. I am sure that my right hon. Friend believes that. He would never have remitted the whole sentence and released this boy immediately if he had not done so. He admits it in his statement on 9th May. But, as a result, this boy has been in custody or in borstal for over six months. Whichever way we look at it, that could not have happened if the truth had come out at his trial.
I am afraid that I am in no way cut out to be a barrister, and I have probably pleaded this case very poorly. Nevertheless, I ask my hon. Friend as earnestly as I possibly can, not to say now that a free pardon will be recommended for this lad—I ask nothing of the sort—but to say that she and her right hon. Friend will not close their minds to the case but will consider the arguments which I have adduced tonight and will go into the case again with all the care and consideration which I know they always give to cases of this sort, and that they will see whether they can change their minds about it.
11.15 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Miss Mervyn Pike): My hon. Friend has, as one would expect, gone to a great deal of trouble on behalf of his constituent and has argued his case very strongly. I have listened with great care to everything he has said, and I will convey his argument and pleas to my right hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend contends that as this young man was convicted of being in unlawful possession of three separate objects and as subsequent investigations showed that he was in lawful possession of two of them—with the result that my right hon. Friend thought it right to recommend the remission of the whole of the remainder of his sentence and to order his immediate release—it would have been only right to remove the effects of

1445
the convictions altogether by recommending a free pardon.
Naturally my right hon. Friend considered very carefully whether the circumstances justified this course. But a free pardon is, rightly, regarded as an exceptional act of grace to be granted only in very special circumstances, and by long-standing practice the innocence—moral as well as technical—of a person must be unquestionable before a free pardon is recommended. This, I am afraid, does not apply in the case of Dunsmore, whose complete innocence of all the charges on which he was convicted has not been fully established.
As my hon. Friend said, Dunsmore was himself very largely responsible for his conviction and detention by his lies to the police and his refusal to tell the true story until late in the day. I will briefly relate the facts of the case. The facts are that on 25th September, 1963, two Metropolitan police constables saw Dunsmore running from the Mall and looking behind him as he did so. Their suspicions being aroused, they stopped and questioned him. He told them that he had come to London two days before with a friend called John, had been sleeping out and was now lost.
He was found to have in his possession a lighter with the initials "H.A.W.", a ring with initials which they read as "W.M." or "M.W." and a Smiths watch. The police questioned Dunsmore about his possession of these articles. He said that he had bought them all two weeks previously from a friend in Leeds whose name he could not give. Asked to give the make of the watch he said it was a Timex. Further questioned, he said that he had bought the articles from a friend in London a week before. Told that his explanations were unsatisfactory, he ran away.
He was caught and taken to the police station, where he was told that if he would give the names and addresses of the people from whom he had bought the articles, inquiries would be made to check his story. He would only say that he bought the articles from John. Dunsmore was charged with having in his possession a cigarette lighter, ring and wristwatch suspected of having been stolen or unlawfully obtained.
1446
After appearing at Bow Street Magistrates' Court, he was remanded while police inquiries were made to trace the owners of the property, but these were unsuccessful. On 2nd October he was convicted at Bow Street of the offence, and on 18th October, following a remand for probation and borstal suitability reports, he was sent to London Sessions for sentence with a view to borstal training. At the same time he was committed for sentence for an offence of stealing property from a shop for which he was on probation.
During the magistrates' court hearing the clerk of the court pointed out to Dunsmore that it would help him if he could name the persons from whom he had obtained the articles. He still said nothing. Dunsmore appealed to quarter sessions against his conviction. In his grounds of appeal he explained his possession of the articles as follows; first, that he had bought the wristwatch off a friend, John Duke, it being John Duke's property; secondly, that he had bought the ring off a neighbour, William Watson, for five shillings; and, thirdly, that he had found the lighter.
At the appeal hearing, on 20th November, John Duke gave evidence in support of Dunsmore's story. William Watson was not called, but Dunsmore's mother handed in a note from a William Warrington, who said that' he had sold the ring to Dunsmore. The appeal was dismissed, and Dunsmore was sent to borstal training for the current offence and for the offence for which he had been on probation since February, 1963. He had previously been on probation in 1962 for an offence of larceny from a schoolroom.
It was at this stage that Mrs. Dunsmore approached my hon. Friend. She disputed the police account of how they had first encountered Dunsmore and the police evidence of what Dunsmore had said to them. She mentioned that "We have seen two men whom he bought the watch and ring off, one went with us to the appeal", but she produced no additional evidence. My hon. Friend then asked me for information about the case, and I obtained a full report from the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police. This, I think, is the answer to my hon. Friend's question about inquiries. This

1447
report did not disclose any information which had not been available in court.
While my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is always ready to examine any new evidence that may be brought to his notice after a trial, it would be quite improper for him, as I am sure my hon. Friend will understand, to purport to retry a case on the same evidence that had already been considered and rejected by the court. Accordingly, we were bound, on the information then before us, to take the view that we could find no grounds for recommending any interference with the sentence imposed by the court, and so I informed my hon. Friend.
In March, as my hon. Friend has said, our attention was drawn to an article in the People reporting investigations it had made following an approach by Dunsmore's mother. The People claimed to have uncovered evidence showing that Dunsmore was, as he said, the lawful owner of the ring and the watch. It said that William Warrington's story that he sold the ring to Dunsmore was supported by Mrs. Warrington. It also said that it had evidence to support John Duke's claim to have sold Dunsmore the watch. Duke's cousin, Alfred Dale, was prepared to say that Duke gave him the watch to pawn, and subsequently sold the pawn ticket to Dunsmore, who redeemed the watch. Duke's mother was prepared to give evidence of seeing Duke sell the pawn ticket to Dunsmore, and the pawnbroker named by Dunsmore remembered the watch being pledged and redeemed.
This, if true, amounted to new evidence, and we thought it right to ask the police to investigate it. Their investigation took some weeks, but by the end of April they were able to report, after questioning the persons named in the People and obtaining other, corroborative evidence, that the account in the People was substantially correct. Although it was clear that Dunsmore could have been convicted, on his own admission, of stealing by finding the lighter, it was considered that some action to mitigate his sentence ought to be taken by the Home Secretary.
There were three possible courses to be considered, and the first was whether a free pardon was appropriate. As I have indicated earlier, however, a free pardon
1448
is recommended only when innocence is complete and unquestionable, and this was not so in Dunsmore's case. My hon. Friend has represented that, in keeping the lighter after he had found it, Dunsmore was doing no more than very many people would have done. But keeping the lighter was an offence, and the fact that other people might have done the same thing in similar circumstances is, as I am sure hon. Members will agree, no sufficient reason for lowering the standards which successive Home Secretaries have always felt must be satisfied before Her Majesty can properly be recommended to grant a free pardon.
Secondly, consideration was given to whether Dunsmore should be released on licence. The release of a borstaller on licence is something the Home Secretary has power to do under Statute, and this would have had the effect of restoring supervision to which, had it not been for the current conviction, Dunsmore would have been subject until February, 1965, by the probation order. But it was decided that the right course was to recommend the use of the Royal Prerogative to grant Dunsmore unconditional remission of the remainder of his sentence, and he was released on 9th May.
My hon. Friend has expressed dissatisfaction that his earlier representations did not lead to this result. There was, of course, no question of greater regard being paid to the newspaper than to his representations. The difference was that the People indicated the existence of evidence which was not before the court and might, if true, provide grounds for recommending interference with the court's decision.
My hon. Friend has asked why Dunsmore's request for a defence certificate was refused by London Sessions in November, and he has suggested that had Dunsmore been represented his story would have been more thoroughly checked, and the appeal, perhaps, have succeeded. This is not a point on which I can usefully say very much. The decision whether or not to grant legal aid is entirely for the court to which application is made, and it would be outside the province of the Home Secretary to inquire into the court's reason for its decision, or to comment on what it decided.
As I said at the very beginning, I have throughout listened very carefully to my

1449
hon. Friend's arguments, and to the very forceful pleas he has put forward. I assure him that my right hon. Friend has gone very carefully into this case, but I can assure him also that we will look at it again, but on the facts as I see them, I cannot give any great hope that new facts will come to light to change
1450
the Home Secretary's decision. However, we will look very carefully into all the arguments my hon. Friend has put tonight.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-jour minutes past Eleven o'clock.

SCOTLAND
  Cumbernauld, Denny and Bonnybridge By-passes
  Cumbernauld, Denny and Bonnybridge By-passes
  Road Accidents
  Road Accidents
  Typhoid Outbreak, Aberdeen
  Typhoid Outbreak, Aberdeen
  Forth Road Bridge
  Forth Road Bridge
  Scottish College of Commerce (Russian Course)
  Scottish College of Commerce (Russian Course)
  Local Authority Houses
  Local Authority Houses
  Illegitimate Births, Argyllshire
  Illegitimate Births, Argyllshire
  Housing (Elderly Persons)
  Housing (Elderly Persons)
  House Building Completions
  House Building Completions
  Law of Succession
  Law of Succession
  Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy
  Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy
  Winter Keep Scheme
  Winter Keep Scheme
  School Teachers (Married Women)
  School Teachers (Married Women)
  Legal Aid
  Legal Aid
  Typhoid
  Typhoid
  Industrial Building Methods
  Industrial Building Methods
  Hospitals (Capital Building Works)
  Hospitals (Capital Building Works)
  East Fife Hospitals (Report)
  East Fife Hospitals (Report)
TRANSPORT
  British Waterways Board (Legal Staff)
  British Waterways Board (Legal Staff)
  Bus Shelters
  Bus Shelters
  Yellow Headlamp Bulbs
  Yellow Headlamp Bulbs
  Car Parks
  Car Parks
  Learner Drivers
  Learner Drivers
  Channel Tunnel
  Channel Tunnel
ROADS
  Loading Bays (Meter Zones)
  Loading Bays (Meter Zones)
  Merry Harrier Junction, Penarth
  Merry Harrier Junction, Penarth
  Severn Bridge
  Severn Bridge
  Burton-on-Trent Bypass
  Burton-on-Trent Bypass
  A.5 (London-Fazely)
  A.5 (London-Fazely)
  Accident, East Ilsley
  Accident, East Ilsley
RAILWAYS
  Mail Van Fire (Macclesfield)
  Mail Van Fire (Macclesfield)
SHIPPING
  Penmarch Point (Metal Containers)
  Penmarch Point (Metal Containers)
  Departmental Expenditure
  Departmental Expenditure
  Shipping Divisions (Staff)
  Shipping Divisions (Staff)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Air Traffic Facilities, Dundee
  Air Traffic Facilities, Dundee
  Prestwick Airport (Landing Fees)
  Prestwick Airport (Landing Fees)
  Fokker Jet F28
  Fokker Jet F28
BRITISH ARMY
  Hanzin Prison, Swaziland (British Service Men)
  Hanzin Prison, Swaziland (British Service Men)
  Recruitment (Northern Ireland)
  Recruitment (Northern Ireland)
ROYAL NAVY
  Rosyth Dockyard Workers (Housing)
  Rosyth Dockyard Workers (Housing)
  Recruitment (Northern Ireland)
  Recruitment (Northern Ireland)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Recruitment (Northern Ireland)
  Recruitment (Northern Ireland)
  Helicopter (Use)
  Helicopter (Use)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Major Macey and Driver Platt
  Major Macey and Driver Platt
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Foremanship and Supervision Examinations
  Foremanship and Supervision Examinations
  Medical Research (Expenditure)
  Medical Research (Expenditure)
  Secondary Education (Orpington)
  Secondary Education (Orpington)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Corned Beef Stocks, Scotland
  Corned Beef Stocks, Scotland
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Nationalised Industries (Cost)
  Nationalised Industries (Cost)
  Rating Valuation (Caerphilly)
  Rating Valuation (Caerphilly)
  Radio Ships "Caroline" and "Atlanta"
  Radio Ships "Caroline" and "Atlanta"
HOSPITALS
  Standardised Equipment
  Standardised Equipment
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Sewage Disposal, Birmingham
  Sewage Disposal, Birmingham
  Valuation Appeals, Caerphilly
  Valuation Appeals, Caerphilly
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Ships and Aircraft (Safety Frequencies)
  Ships and Aircraft (Safety Frequencies)
  Radio Transmitting Stations
  Radio Transmitting Stations
  Radio Ships "Caroline" and "Atlanta"
  Radio Ships "Caroline" and "Atlanta"
  Regional Sound Broadcasting
  Regional Sound Broadcasting

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Manchester), The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
The Lord Lindsay of Birker—Took the Oath.

REGIONAL HOSPITAL BOARD AREAS
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the changes in the local government administration following the creation of the Greater London Council, it is intended to alter the existing areas of the Regional Hospital Boards.]
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, the existing areas of Regional Hospital Boards will have to be redefined in terms of the new boroughs created by the London Government Act. This is a technical consequence of the Act, but the opportunity is also being taken to consider whether there should be any alterations in the areas for which the Boards are responsible. As consultations with the Hospital Service have so far proceeded, it seems unlikely that any major changes will be proposed, but the views of the local authorities concerned will be sought before any alterations are made.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his Answer. I should like to ask him, if I may, when it is likely that a decision on this matter will take place; and whether it is not important that, so far as possible, the administrative layout of the social services in the country should conform to the changes in the local government administrative areas.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, it is intended to revoke all the existing regulations with effect from April 1, 1965, and to replace them wish new regulations taking account of the changes that will
1178
have been made by that date. It is recognised that health services should, wherever possible, recognise general geographical limits for common purposes, but in London the use of hospitals is determined primarily by preference for the facilities they offer and by ease of communication, rather than by the local authority areas in which the patients live.

OIL POLLUTION OF THE SEA
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in the light of the continuing damage to wild life and to seaside amenity from oil pollution, what further action is being taken or is contemplated, either by Government or by shipping interests, in the way of research or changes in operating procedures to bring this problem under control.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, at my right honourable friend's request, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is undertaking research on an improved oily water separator for use in ships and on the development of a device to detect, measure and record the oil content of discharges from ships. The Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation has recently set up a Sub-Committee on Oil Pollution to co-ordinate and promote measures agreed at international conferences for combating oil pollution.
Your Lordships will doubtless have heard this morning's announcement of the new "load on top" system for oil tankers that is being adopted by the Shell, British Petroleum and Esso Companies, who believe that, if adopted by the industry generally, it will quickly bring about a substantial improvement. My right honourable friend regards these proposals as of the greatest interest. He will continue to keep in close touch with their progress, with a view to furthering them if action on his part would help.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I thank the Minister for a helpful reply.

1179
Before asking any supplementary questions, may I first say that I think we all enormously welcome the initiative shown by Shell, particularly, who have taken a lead in this matter, and B.P. and Esso, who are going along with them? May I ask the noble Lord two supplementary questions? First of all, will it be possible for Her Majesty's Government to bring some influence to bear on any tanker companies which are either resident in this country or have ships discharging in this country and which do not voluntarily go along with the proposals of the big oil companies—because there is a danger of their continuing not to adopt this system? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether he thinks the reception facilities available for the discharge of this oily waste are adequate, at least within this country?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, on the first part of the question I think the noble Lord will understand if I say that there has not yet been time to study the implications of this system. I think that, at the present stage, until there has been time for such a study of the implications in full, both national and international, I ought perhaps not to say any more about it. So far as concerns the possibilities of the discharge of oily wastes, I think the oil companies have found certain difficulties around the world in the lack of suitable reception facilities for their oily waste. In fact, I think I am right in saying that one of the reasons why this system has been developed was to avoid ships carrying about oily waste which simply has to be discharged, and to arrive at a much more manageable system. I would have thought, as I understand the proposed system, that the actual discharge is reduced to a minimum, which will very much alleviate that problem.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be possible for Her Majesty's Government, at an early date, to make it clear that they would not themselves charter any independently-owned tanker which did not adopt the new system of dealing with oily wastes?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, formal public announcement of this system was made only this morning, and as I have
1180
said, time has so far been a little short for a study of all the implications of it, which I should prefer to have happened before I said any more.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I do not wish to appear unreasonable, but in point of fact this system has been under consideration by the Department which the noble Lord represents for at least two years; and, while I agree that we are immensely indebted to the initiative of our own oil companies, I do not think the problem burst upon his Department with quite the novelty he suggests. At any rate, any action Her Majesty's Government could take to put themselves behind this obviously practical method of dealing with a difficult situation would have a great effect throughout the world upon such shipowners who in this matter are not as enlightened as our own.
LORD CHESHAM: Of course, I would never pretend that I was better informed than the noble Lord in any respect, but I would certainly say that what he has said is one of the matters which will require serious consideration.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, may I assure my noble friend that his Answer will be received with satisfaction by the local authorities of seaside resorts? But may I ask him whether particular attention will be paid to the Sussex coasts, where holidaymakers are still having clothing very badly stained by oil pollution from these ships?
LORD CHESHAM: While having every sympathy with Sussex, I do not think there is any area particularly interested in this matter. After all, this very objectionable business of the discharge of oil at sea affects all the oceans in the world.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether his Department has yet made any approach to the Admiralty with regard to the practice, which ought to be adopted now in view of the Shell initiative, which applies to naval auxiliaries, naval tankers and all naval ships?
LORD CHESHAM: Frankly, my Lords, without inquiry I cannot say to-day.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I ask one more or less hopeful supplementary question? May I ask whether the Government will continue

1181
their strongest efforts in regard to research, particularly in regard to oil already in the sea? There are several millions of tons of oil floating around in the sea and it will continue to float around and foul our beaches and kill the birds for many years ahead.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, we were aware of that. It is not only a question of what will happen from now on but what has happened in the past. I would certainly say the answer to the noble Lord's supplementary question is Yes.
LORD REA: My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether Her Majesty's Government will try to co-ordinate this matter with other countries, so that it is taken up universally?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, that is what we are doing our best to do already, and we will certainly continue.

OIL POLLUTION CONVENTION AND AMENDMENTS
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many countries have ratified—

(a) the 1954 Convention on Oil Pollution;

(b) the 1962 amendments;

and whether Her Majesty's Government contemplate any further initiative internationally or otherwise to bring the 1962 amendments into force.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, 28 countries have, to date, accepted the 1954 Convention on Oil Pollution, and eleven countries have accepted the 1962 amendments. It is the responsibility of the Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation as the Bureau for the Convention, to lake steps to expedite the acceptance of the amendments. Her Majesty's Government have fully supported the efforts which the Organisation have made; they hope that the latest
1182
steps taken by the Organisation to hasten acceptances will produce results.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, since the full effects of the 1962 amendments cannot come into force until a larger number of countries have signed those amendments; and since the number of countries who signed the 1954 Convention goes up all the time and this makes it more difficult to get the necessary number of ratifications for the 1962 amendments, could I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government would themselves take an initiative in support of IMCO. Indeed, may I ask in what way they have been supporting IMCO in their worthy, but so far unavailing, attempts to get a number of further countries to agree to the 1962 amendments?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, of course the noble Lord is quite right. We must have a further eight acceptances before the 1962 amendments can take effect. I agree with him that it is extremely desirable that this should happen. It is difficult to see what more we can do. We are part of IMCO and we have supported every effort they have made. The only other thing we might do ourselves is individually to lobby countries and urge them to accept these amendments. I have been thinking about this and I will look into it to see what I can do, because I think this is very well worth doing.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, without being importunate, may I suggest that, much as we value the action Her Majesty's Government have already taken, there is one respect in which they could intervene without difficulty, and that is to use their good offices with other members of the Commonwealth who have still not yet ratified the amendments. If that were done, it would, at any rate, make a move in the right direction.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I most certainly will consider that, and of course it would be part of the action to be taken under my earlier Answer.

SHELL COMPANY OF AUSTRALIA BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
ST. GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE BURIAL GROUND BILL
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, I would inform your Lordships that a plan showing the land affected by the provisions of this Bill has been deposited in the Royal Gallery and is now there for the benefit of any noble Lord particularly interested in this Bill.

INDUSTRIAL DESIGN
2.45 p.m.
LORD PEDDIE LORD PEDDIE rose to call attention to the Annual Report of the Council of Industrial Design and to stress the importance of encouraging original industrial design as a factor in the stimulation of British exports and improvement of Home standards; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I believe this is the first time that the subject of industrial design has been discussed in this House. I recognise, as many noble Lords will, that a great number of people to-day consider design as being concerned solely with appearance and æsthetic qualities. During the course of my comments I shall not make much reference to the artistic aspect, because I think there are many who are far more qualified so to do. It is my intention to deal almost exclusively with the economic aspect of design and to endeavour to bring a sense of reality into one's assessment of industrial design.
I believe that the people and the Government to-day recognise the need for greater economic production, recognise it as the basis of our economic strength and the key to a higher standard of living. This has been reflected over the past years in many debates in your Lordships' House on the subjects of production, management, automation, research and so on. All are important; but they are not all-embracing. I fear that there has been a tendency in the past to emphasise volume terms of production. Volume is not enough; there must be the right type of production. For that, and that alone, creates the value with which we are more particularly concerned in terms of export sales. There lies the basic reason for this debate: to draw attention to the true significance of industrial design and the substantial contribution that the
1184
Council of Industrial Design have made and are making towards the recognition of greater appreciation of industrial design to-day.
I cannot deny that there has in recent years been some improvement in the general standard of industrial design, and I know that some of our traditional products attract overseas buyers; but I think one could state, with regret, that there is no industry in this country today which could claim that our designs are universally acknowledged as being the best in the world. Therefore that, and that alone, justifies a measure of criticism, and particularly a criticism of the management attitude, which I believe carries a high measure of responsibility. Yet, at the same time, it is interesting to note that Britain has the longest interest in the subject of industrial design, or industrial art as it was once called, and this is not surprising, because of our long industrial history. Going back to the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, we find that in 1754 the Royal Society of Arts offered prizes for good design in employment, trade and manufacture. But later good taste and æsthetic qualities were submerged in the avalanche of solid production arising out of the Industrial Revolution. The Great Exhibition of 1881 showed only one concession to design, and it was the engraved decorative rosebuds on various products.
We have never truly and fully escaped from that experience. I believe the true purpose, by modern conception, of industrial design was expressed in 1915 when the Design and Industries Association (and I quote):
"Sought to harmonise right design and manufacturing efficiency"—
and expressed the thesis—
"that the first necessity of sound design is fitness for use."
This view is the basis of my comments.
I believe that, if we accept this definition, it destroys the prejudice against increased attention to industrial design to-day. I believe that bad design in industrial products is the greatest single cause of economic waste, industrial loss and the relative fall in overseas sales. I am certain that there are many industrial and manufacturing organisations in this country to-day which, if the truth could be expressed, would be able

1185
to declare that they have time and again suffered substantial losses, merely because they are not capable, or are not willing, to produce goods of the right design. I will save the blushes of British manufacturers by merely making reference to the American experience of the Edsel Ford car, which mechanically had everything, which supposedly met every requirement the consumer could expect, but which, because of bad design, resulted in a loss of millions of dollars.
It is interesting to note that the National Economic Development Council quite recently indicated the necessity for greater attention to the general design of products if we were to increase our exports. I know that noble Lords in this House have time and time again expressed their faith in scientific research. We all recognise the need for it, but it is not the sole instrument of progress. It is true that it is necessary to extend the boundary of scientific knowledge, but it is equally necessary to ensure the best use of our existing resources. And I believe that the exploitation of our existing resources is the major means to secure a higher standard of living in the decades ahead.
I think that it could be established that markets have been lost through lack of recognition that good design is as important as, if not more important than, soundness of material. Slick salesmanship is no compensation for bad design. It is interesting to refer to the Fielden Report on Engineering Design, published recently. It expressed the view that
"Britain's share of international trade in engineering goods has been declining. In spite of some notable successes, many British products are being out-classed in performance, reliability and sales appeal. Imports of machinery have been increasing."
Engineering goods are sold on the merits of their performance, reliability, appearance, delivery and price. And, as the Report indicates, design determines most and affects all of these factors. The Report goes on to state:
"There is evidence that the importance of design is not sufficiently appreciated by management of engineering businesses."
I could refer to the comment made by the Economist, following the publication of the Fielden Report, which shared the view that design standards in British engineering were too low and called for
1186
a higher assessment of the services of design engineers. Incidentally, they comment on the fact that they know of only one company in this country that pays its industrial engineer designers more than its research engineers. It is of real significance to note that that one firm is the Rolls Royce Company, with a world-wide reputation, with a great tradition and a thrusting modernity.
The Fielden Report urged the raising of the standards of design. It is interesting to see the position to-day as indicated by the published survey of the University of South Wales, which found that 47 per cent. of engineers earning from £1,800 to £2,900 were in management and only 8 per cent. in engineering design. The position is equally bad in consumer design. A friend of mine told me recently about having the experience of calling upon a designer in the pottery industry. He was not available in his studio. He was in the packing room, where he was expected to assist when he was not busy designing the pots. I think that that is the general attitude of mind of many of our manufacturers.
I believe that design in industry was never more important than it is to-day. Since the war there has been great development in design in those countries with which we compete for the world's markets, and world competition is getting fiercer. To-day in Tilbury a Japanese ship will dock, the Sakura Maru", which cost £2½ million to build, and which is designed exclusively as an exhibition ship. She will carry 400 displays and will show Japanese capital and consumer goods all over the world. In contrast, the British Government's expenditure on overseas exhibitions, so far as I can ascertain, has never been more than £875,000 a year. Increased competition and easier access on the part of other countries to raw materials and new methods of production make one realise that the design of products becomes increasingly important, in terms of both the influence on the production of goods and the attraction of the product. Thus, the imaginative designer is essential to countries like Britain. Recently, the Export Council for Europe stated that the firms most successful in exports are those which make a careful study of the consumers' requirements and this includes, they state, right design.
I know that there are many established industries in this country which are proud of their tradition, but, unfortunately, they are beginning to make the tradition a straitjacket. In Sheffield, for example, the cutlery industry is rightly proud of its great reputation for quality. But it is now feeling the competition of Scandinavian production. That challenge, cannot be met by dependence on tradition; nor is it sound policy to copy slavishly the Scandinavian designs. It is necessary to evolve new designs that reflect national characteristics together with modern trends. It is my belief that all too many producers of consumer goods do little to cultivate better standards, and all too many manufacturers underestimate the standards that consumers expect. It is fundamentally wrong to assume that good design is associated with expensive goods only. In many cases the responsibility for the maintenance of this assumption is that of the manufacturer himself. I believe that the opposite should be the case, because well-designed goods are simple in form, and productionwise are more economic of effort and of materials, and therefore should in the long run be less expensive.
It is regrettable that in this country, at least, industrial design is mentally closely identified with art. The hardheaded businessman seems to recoil from this. But in Scandinavia the term is more often used and accepted as a component of industrial thinking and of everyday life, and this is reflected in the quality of their products. I would comment on the Scandinavian Design Cavalcade, which year after year shows the products of the Scandinavian countries, stimulating home standards and having its influence on exports. Design, I suppose, basically appeals to the eye and to the sense of good taste, but I am pleased that it has also a strong and practical aspect, in that it not only involves State consumer requirements but is an integral part of the whole process of production. In my view, that is a factor which too many British manufacturers fail to appreciate. Modern industrial design is far more fundamental than mere styling. I believe that it is a basic and dangerous error to assume that it is simply an expensive
1188
appendage to the product or glossy package.
I hope that the discussion in this House—and there are many far more qualified than I am who will be taking part in the debate—will destroy the illusion that design management is an expensive luxury. I believe that the basic aspects of industrial design are to design so that the product functions efficiently; that, by choice of materials and design of their conformation, the cost of material is kept as low as possible; that choice of materials and design of components reflect the maximum effort to minimise cost. When these criteria are satisfied the problem of achieving clean and attractive design is more simple, because extraneous matter has been eliminated.
It is interesting to note—and I think this is of tremendous importance—that in the United States of America, and in the case of a number of progressive companies in this country, a recognition of the fundamental purpose of industrial design is seen in a new and important tool of management, a new method of design study called "value engineering". It is aimed at reducing the cost of production and maximising utility and attraction of product. Basically it is used as an orderly process of reasoning which permits the breakdown of engineering design into a detailed study of effect evaluation of component function. I regard this design analysis as a most significant development. It has been demonstrated in the United States as being so valuable in securing cost reduction and good engineering design that to-day it is absolutely necessary to have design engineers capable of this approach in order to secure United States Government contracts. I have no intention of introducing any political discord into this debate, but I would express the view that recent experience demonstrates the necessity that similar approach should be taken by our own Government when great orders are being placed.
I know that to-day management techniques have many fancy names, and we engaged in commerce tend to be a little cynical about them. In this computer age and "O. and M." period we see the growth of many mystiques which operate like a magician's circle; unless you know the jargon you are not accepted into

1189
membership; and the more involved the jargon, the greater is the air of mystery, and, presumably, the greater the fee of those likely to be involved in these new techniques. But there is no doubt that value engineering in relation to industrial design has demonstrated its value without any air of mystery and has become almost standard industrial technique to-day in the United States and, to some extent, among progressive firms here. While I was preparing for this debate, I had some discussion with one of the largest and most successful manufacturers of durable goods in this country. They informed me that they had found that good industrial design cut the cost of materials and labour by 10 per cent.; and that was achieved by a constant review of basic designs in the light of the latest material and production technology. Imagine what could happen to British production costs and the possibilities of increasing our export trade and strengthening our competition if that could be claimed by the majority of concerns in this country to-day!
Yet it is recognised that at its highest good design is an expression of creative genius. Britain has never been short of human material endowed with imaginative faculty capable of giving a lead; but I think even genius needs encouragement. We have to dispense with the attitude that the designer merely adds a bit of styling. I believe that there is an increasing indication of a group awareness of the importance of this subject, and the Financial Times is to be congratulated upon the large supplement dealing with industrial design which was published recently.
The Council of Industrial Design, under the direction of Mr. Paul Reilly, has since 1944, when the Council was first established, played an enormous part in increasing that awareness. It is interesting to note from the Report (which I hope all noble Lords will read) that it makes certain points that are of enormous importance. The Council point out that the years ahead are years of opportunity for British designers. They say that we are going through a period of great social and industrial change, and a revolution in buying habits; that there are prospects of great programmes of investment; and all this together with a public unrest at the prevailing mediocrity in design. They also
1190
point out (and I think this is very significant from the Government's standpoint) that foreign designers did not achieve their success single-handed, but were stimulated by imaginative manufacturers and by their Governments. The Report goes on to indicate and emphasise the need to replace the lowest-tender mentality with something more constructive, and to secure higher value, which involves persuading people to produce and buy, not down to price but up to a standard. So the whole of the Report urges the need for higher design standards, better training and for industry to give more attention to the problem of design management; and it urges greater pressure on the Government and local authorities to raise the standard of design in bulk purchasing, because the influence of corporate buying, for good or ill, is enormous in the economic as well as in the social spheres.
What are we to do about it? We recognise that there is need for great improvement. We recognise the significance of industrial design, and the need to encourage it, if we are to play a greater part in the export trade. We also recognise that when dealing with human skill, imagination and creative faculty there is no easy road to progress. I agree that we cannot solve problems of this character by legal enactment, because so much depends on the mind and attitude of industrialists and buyers as well as the Government. Nevertheless, we do not exonerate the Government from responsibility, because they can play a part, by example and inspiration, and by assisting in the provision of more training facilities. The Government should increase their support to design institutions that encourage public interest in the sphere.
It is fair to mention that in recent years some Government Departments have demonstrated their increasing awareness of industrial design. The Post Office is collaborating more closely with the Council of Industrial Design. The Ministry of Works have made some improvement, but they still have a long way to travel. One can appreciate this when it is realised that in furniture and furnishings alone the Ministry of Works spend £3 million a year for use at home, and some £500,000 for our Embassies abroad. Imagine what influence can be exercised on the development of

1191
standards by a better recognition of the need for a higher standard of design on those products which have been purchased! I do not know just how much is expended by the Ministry of Health on all the hospitals; but if we take buildings, and the furnishings of hospitals, where people are compelled to live on occasions for a comparatively long period of time, the total is a fantastic sum. Imagine the influence if the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Health both had the full recognition of the necessity for lifting the general design standard. Britain cannot rest on its historical tradition, and I believe that it is dangerous for a trading nation like ourselves to get the reputation of being an Old Curiosity Shop. It may be good for the Travel Board—I have no doubt it is—but it will win no reputation of British goods. Therefore, while one might have some sympathy with the attitude of the Travel Board, their propaganda is not in the best interests of British industry.
Design requirements should be given far higher priority in Government contracts. I know that some purchasing authorities have design panels. but that is not true of all. But this activity, I feel, must increase. Local authorities and the Government are the greatest single buyers of consumer and durable goods in this country. Their attention to design could offer enormous influence upon public appreciation and design policy of manufacturers. I believe that, so far as local authorities are concerned, no purchasing officer employed by a local authority should be appointed unless he has some appreciation of design elements. In this field I am certain that the Council of Industrial Design could assist. I believe that it is necessary to step up substantially the work of the Council of Industrial Design, and to extend its activities into industries not at present covered by the Design Centre, capital goods and engineering industries.
One would hope that there would be opportunity for the presentation of awards for the best design in capital and engineering goods, similar to the award for consumer goods awarded by His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh. This development into capital goods, which is so necessary to the future of
1192
this country, would, I think, justify a closer association between the Council and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. There has been an indication over the years of the enormous influence of the Council, particularly through the Design Centre, for I understand that no fewer than 2,600 people pass through the Centre each day. With the improvement in British standards, which I hope will follow, there could be stepped up overseas exhibitions to create an overseas awareness and stimulate British producers. I am glad of the fact that the Board of Trade and the Export Council for Europe have invited the Council of Industrial Design to participate in the exhibitions in Düsseldorf and Copenhagen.
Basically—and this is my last point—the real factor lies in education. Much more needs to be done in the education of industrial designers, who at present are all too few, particularly in the field of engineering. I believe that in all engineering courses the elements of design should be part of the curriculum. In Britain to-day there are only 250 engineering industrial designers at eight colleges taking a full-time course in industrial design for engineering. Without basic education we cannot hope to lift design standards. A design student's curriculum must not be confined to art and the ability to draw. Modern standards demand knowledge of mathematics, of the properties of materials, of basic engineering, quality control and production methods. In this field of education it is encouraging to see that the Royal College of Art, which in the past has emphasised the fine arts, is now recognising the need for greater attention to the problem of industrial design. I understand that the Royal College will shortly be raised to university status. I am also stimulated to learn of the proposal for a University on Design and Technology in North Middlesex. I think it is an idea which need not run counter to the development of the Royal College of Art. This is a proposition which demands close examination on the part of the Government, for it is a new conception in which designers, engineers, teachers and architects would receive graduate training, and associate and work together with the full curriculum allied to industry and commerce.
I end with the comment that, with the raising of living standards, there will be developed almost spontaneously on the part of the mass of the people a desire for something better. It becomes the responsibility of industrialists, manufacturers and the Government to see that that demand is met. It is necessary for us to recognise that good design is good business and carries with it a commendable social objective. I hope that, as a result of this discussion in this House to-day, there will be sufficient stimulus to ensure that these desirable objectives are achieved at an early date. I beg to move for Papers.
Moved, That there be laid before the House Papers relating to the Annual Report of the Council of Industrial Design and to the importance of encouraging original industrial design as a factor in the stimulation of British exports and improvement of home standards.—(Lord Peddie.)
3.16 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, I am sure I speak for all your Lordships when I express the thanks of the House to the noble Lord for having raised to-day this question of industrial design associated with, and in the context of, the Council of Industrial Design, and for the extremely interesting and admirable speech with which he has opened this debate. At one stage in what he had to say, he asked: what is to be done? My reason for intervening at this stage is that I think it may be helpful to your Lordships if I say now what is being done, particularly by the Council of Industrial Design (and this is, I think, the first time that their Report has been debated) and with the assistance of the Council of Industrial Design.
I should like to start by going back a little into history in order to put the whole question of design into perspective. I do not propose to go quite so far back as 1754, but I should like to say this. The importance of industrial design has not always been recognised. For the fact that it is to-day, our thanks are largely due to the Council of Industrial Design, whose Report we are now considering. For its origins, we have to look back to the years between the wars, because at that time people were increas-
1194
ingly coming to see that in industrial products there should be a direct relation between function and appearance; that though the function was mundane, line and proportion were not unimportant, and that the artist had a contribution to make which was more fundamental than the role of superficial decorator to which the hard-headed industrialists of the nineteenth century had often relegated him—more fundamental, to quote the words of the noble Lord, than the role of adding a "bit of styling". I agree very much with the noble Lord that design is an integral part of production, and should be treated as such.
It was in 1935 that an exhibition of British Art in Industry was organised by the Royal Society of Arts and the Royal Academy. That exhibition not only did much to foster co-operation between artists and industry; it also attracted public attention to the subject. Shortly afterwards, the Council for Art and Industry was set up, with a small grant from the Treasury and with the main task of surveying the field of industrial design. In 1936 the new profession of "industrial designer" was formally recognised, which is less than thirty years ago, when the Royal Society of Arts founded the distinction of Royal Designer for Industry. Eleven were originally appointed. There are now 48, and in addition there are thirteen honorary foreign holders of the distinction.
The war-time Coalition Government foresaw that exporting in the post-war world was going to be a much more competitive business than anything we had known before. They first set up the Central Design Council under the Board of Trade, which would, among other functions, carry on a permanent exhibition of the best of modern design. In December, 1944, the Council of Industrial Design and its Scottish Committee were formed with terms of reference
"to promote by all practicable means the improvement of design in the products of British industry".
It was in 1946 that the Council first came before the public with the "Britain Can Make It" Exhibition, intended to draw attention to the need for higher standards of design in post-war production. In 1948, and for the next three years, the Council turned the major part of their energies to the Festival of Britain Exhibition,

1195
particularly the selection and display of manufactured exhibits. In 1956 came the establishment of the Design Centre in Haymarket. The following year the Design Centre in Glasgow was opened.
The Design Centre in Haymarket, as noble Lords will know, provides permanent, but changing, exhibition of durable consumer goods selected by the Council from Design Index. The Design Index is a record, with photographs or samples, of some 10,000 products chosen by the Council's Selection Committees as examples of enterprising and original design, and, as the noble Lord said, the number of people who visit the Design Centre averages over 2,500 a day. The choice of these products for Design Index is made from products submitted by manufacturers, and since 1961 the Centre in Glasgow has been conducted on similar lines. Smaller design centres, with duplicate copies of Design Index, have recently been set up in Bristol, Nottingham and Manchester, with financial support from local interests. The design centres are the hubs of the Council's work. They are linked with, and backed up by, a wide range of activities.
Perhaps I may now say a word about the aims, activities and methods of the Council. First, the Council are trying to get manufacturers to see that, as the noble Lord said, good design is good business. They try to convince firms that it is in their interest to employ qualified designers and to give them their proper place in the managerial structure. To help manufacturers to find suitable designers, the Council maintain a record of designers from which, for a small fee, the Council will provide a short list of designers knowledgeable on any particular type of product or problem. The Council also encourage manufacturers to submit products for inclusion in Design Index, as I have said, and for exhibition at the Design Centre.
Where a product has been rejected, they send one of their industrial officers to visit the factory and explain why. As a result he may be asked to recommend a designer to the firm. The industrial officers are constantly visiting factories' drawing offices and showrooms to discuss design problems with firms. These visits also assist the Council to see in which industries help is particularly
1196
needed and to consider what form the help should take. The Council also run design appreciation courses for engineers. Four such courses were held last year, for heads and members of engineering design offices.
The Council have no direct responsibility for the training of industrial designers, but there can be no doubt that they have exercised a considerable influence in encouraging young people to take up industrial design as a career. As the noble Lord said, the basic education of a designer is of the highest importance. The whole field of education for art and design is one in which developments are taking place very fast since the Coldstream Committee first reported on Art Education in 1960. We recognise the importance of this and there is no doubt that both the D.S.I.R. and the Ministry of Education recognise it, place very high value on it and give it every support, and we shall watch the progress of the new diploma and post-diploma courses in three-dimensional design with the greatest of interest.
The second main direction in which the activities of the Council go is to try to encourage a progressive attitude towards design among retailers and their customers, and the recognition that the pressure for good design must come, to a large extent, from the users and from the trade. For example, the Council hold special exhibitions in large towns, one of which, "The Design Centre comes to Leeds", is described in the Report to which the noble Lord referred. An exhibition of this kind is made the occasion for a general drive to interest everybody in the area in design, with television publicity, discussions, lectures, visits by schools and professional people, and so forth. The Council also organiise exhibitions in big retail stores, sometimes also linked with a major design promotion in the area or with exhibitions at the Design Centre, for example, the exhibition of the Design Centre Awards.
In this connection, your Lordships may be aware of two Awards given each year to encourage good design. First, there is the Duke of Edinburgh's Prize for Elegant Design. This is awarded to the designer of a product, selected by a panel over which His Royal Highness presides. Secondly, there are the Design Centre

1197
Awards made to the manufacturers of up to twenty products selected by an independent panel. The Prize and the Awards are presented by the Duke of Edinburgh at a special ceremony, which this year took place in Manchester at the College of Science and Technology.
The third main direction of the Council's activities is in seeking to persuade buyers in the Services and other Government Departments, local authorities, hotels, hospitals, offices, transport undertakings and other large organisations to give serious thought to the design of what they buy. As the noble Lord has said, this can have an immense influence on the appreciation of design in the country as a whole, and I think the noble Lord will be interested to know that this is one of the points on which the Council of Industrial Design are concentrating at the present time.
In 1961 the Council held a Congress of Corporate Buying at which about 200 delegates from Government purchasing departments, local authorities, industry, including nationalised undertakings, and the hotel and catering industries were brought together. The Council view courses for retailers, planned to help them to appreciate the factors in good design and also to bring them into contact with manufacturers, as an important part of their functions. The courses are residential and include visits to factories. Apart from what may be called "publicity" activities, the Council aim at educating everybody they can reach, from schoolchildren upwards, in the importance of the appreciation of design. If I may be allowed to say so, I think I have personally benefited from that education. The Report records that in 1962–63 the Council organised several hundred group visits to the Design Centre, involving some 10,000 people in all, and that they either themselves gave, or arranged for lecturers from a panel to give, the best part of 1,000 talks.
My Lords, last but not least, the Council publish a monthly magazine Design in which there are articles on all aspects of design, new products are reviewed, and so forth. The Council regard this magazine as one of their most most effective ways in which to get manufacturers to think constructively and originally about their products. In this connection, I think it is worth adding
1198
that when the Council were considering the Awards for this year they called for more truly creative work which, as they said, would
"offer something more than fitness for purpose, sound manufacture and pleasant appearance."
The noble Lord, Lord Peddie, has referred to industrial design as a factor in the stimulation of exports. This, of course, was one of the reasons why the war-time Government decided to set up a Council of Industrial Design. It was realised then that to keep our position in world trade we must keep abreast of developments in design. It is, of course, not the Council's job to engage in export promotion as such. Their role is to encourage new ideas and modern design in goods produced in this country. A critical and well-informed public taste at home is important if our manufacturers are to have well-designed goods to offer in competitive export markets.
The council does have a part to play, however, in winning a reputation for this country in the world at large. At present, Britain relies to a great extent on exports of well-tried and traditional lines. But that is not enough; we must also be recognised as a country where lively contemporary work can be found. So the Council often display goods for which there is as yet no great demand, confident that the market for new designs will grow as the taste for them becomes more widespread. We have to ensure that wherever British goods are displayed overseas, the best of the forward-looking designs are brought before the public as well as our traditional products. The Council have arranged displays in retail stores in several countries, including Japan and the United States of America. But their main contribution is in selecting goods for the British stands at overseas fairs and for use in British weeks, such as the one at Dusseldorf last month to which the noble Lord referred, which was an undoubted success. As their Report shows, the Council have helped in many ways in export promotion activities, ranging from Tokyo to San Francisco and from Stockholm to Melbourne. The Council are also preparing an exhibition for Moscow to open in August. Its principal aim will be to show the part which the industrial designer plays in this country. Similar exhibitions have been held

1199
in Prague and Warsaw, and attracted a good deal of interest.
Perhaps the most useful opportunity for the Council to enhance the reputation of this country in international design is offered by the Milan Triennale, the leading exhibition in the world for industrial design, with a far-reaching influence in both architecture and design. Each exhibition has a unifying theme which is treated in different ways in the various national pavilions. In 1960 the theme was "Home and School", and my noble friend Lord Eccles, who was then Minister of Education, arranged for a complete prefabricated primary school to be displayed. It was a school developed by the Nottinghamshire County Council on the CLASP system and it gained the Premier Award. This year's Triennale, which opened a few days ago, has as its theme "The Uses of Leisure"—a subject which your Lordships recently debated. The Council of Industrial Design and the Board of Trade, have collaborated in presenting a British pavilion which I believe illustrates this theme admirably, and also shows some of the many articles this country produces to make more of leisure time.
As a result of what has been done, many British firms already recognise the importance to them of the latest developments in design, and have been well able to hold their own with design-conscious competitors in other countries. But undoubtedly much still remains to be done, as the noble Lord suggested. In particular, there is more to do in the capital goods field. Even in the consumer goods industries, some firms are still content to rely solely on traditional lines. I would not for a moment decry well-established designs, but it would be unwise to assume that they will sell for ever. If we are to keep our place in the export markets for consumer durables, it will not be enough merely to offer the best we have produced so far; we have continually to produce new ideas as well.
This, of course, is one of the justifications for finding public money for the work of the Council of Industrial Design, in competition with the many other calls on the public purse. The grant to the Council last year was £250,000. To enable the Council to expand their work in various directions, we have increased
1200
the grant to £325,000 in the current year. Many of the Council's activities earn money—indeed, in total nearly as much as we have been providing by way of grant. The Council's total turnover this year is likely to be over half a million pounds. With their increased resources the Council will be able to develop their direct impact on industry, especially in the capital goods sector. Hitherto, the Council have had only one member of the staff working exclusively in that field, but the response from manufacturers, technical colleges and designers has been so encouraging that it is proposed to engage more staff.
Linked in part with this development, the increased vote will enable the Council also to equip additional exhibition space at the Design Centre. In this space, they are planning to hold a series of "thematic" exhibitions, with the object of showing manufacturers how the industrial designer can be of service in the design of such products as aircraft, vehicles, machine tools, scientific instruments, and so on. In this new development the Council are working in close co-operation with the Federation of British Industries and the D.S.I.R. as well as the British Productivity Council. We shall await its outcome with great interest. Capital goods account for a quarter of our total exports, so that this is a subject that we cannot afford to neglect. We cannot afford not to concern ourselves with the impression that capital goods make on our customers, and indeed where performance is just about equal it is very often appearance that can be the decisive factor in selling. This increase of £75,000 in the Government grant, substantial as it is, was not sufficient to provide for all the activities which the Council would have liked to undertake.
In conclusion, I should like to say that I agree very much with the Council's belief that the mid-1960s could be years of great opportunity for British design and British designers. This country has a tradition of experiment, development and self-renewal—an openness to new ideas, from whatever quarter they may come. We should seize every opportunity to demonstrate this vitality in British design both at home and abroad, and there is not the slightest doubt that the degree of vitality is increasing. I think noble Lords will agree that the

1201
Report we have be fore us this afternoon records an immense amount and variety of work in pursuit of that objective. I am confident that this intensity of effort is being maintained.
I thought it right to say what is being done, particularly by the Council of Industrial Design, as a background for this debate, in which so many noble Lords who have distinguished themselves not only at the Board of Trade but also in the Council of Industrial Design are to take part. I would say that a sound indication of the prestige of a public body is the willingness of men and women of the highest distinction to serve on it. The Government are most grateful to Sir Duncan Oppenheim and the other distinguished members of the Council, past and present, for giving so much of their time to such good effect. The Council are certainly very fortunate in their director, Mr. Paul Reilly who, incidentally, was awarded the Bicentenary Medal for 1963 by the Royal Society of Arts. Perhaps the best impartial tribute to the Council, and something that shows that we are not so backward in this situation as some would have us believe—and, indeed, very far from being backward, we are in the lead—is to be found in the extent to which other countries are modelling their own institution on the lines established by the Council, and in the extent to which advice and guidance are sought from overseas. Of course, the interest and emulation of foreign countries means that competition will be keener than ever and that we cannot afford to relax our efforts.
At least we can take comfort from the fact that the task of encouraging design is in good hands; and, looking to the future, I am sure your Lordships will agree that that work, which is of such great importance to Britain as a manufacturing country, is in good hands. I am grateful to your Lordships for allowing me to say, as a background to this debate, what is being done. If your Lordships will permit me, I shall naturally be glad later to pick up the points that are made in the course of the debate.
3.41 p.m.
LORD LLEWELYN-DAVIES: My Lords, I shall confine myself this after-
1202
noon to talking about one aspect of the problem which the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, has raised—namely, the education of designers, and in particular the education of designers who work in the field of industrial design, because I think, as the noble Lord brought out in his opening speech, that the field of industrial design, that is, the design of the products of manufacturing industry, is probably the most vital of all the fields from the point of view of the national economy and the success of our nation in coming years.
I should like to say that I entirely agree with, and support, the noble Lord's definition of good design as "fitness for purpose"; and when I talk about the education of designers I shall be talking about their education to do this sort of design. I also agree with his broad view that we cannot at the present time claim such pre-eminence as we might rightly wish to claim for this country's design in the international field, and that this is not as satisfactory as it should be and that more remains to be done to make it so.
I should like to refer to the one example quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, of the great international success achieved by British design which was the famous school exhibited at the Milan Triennale. I cannot refrain from saying that, of course, this great success was achieved by architects and had little to do with industrial design as we are discussing it this afternoon.
This failure to achieve world-wide pre-eminence was not always so. In Lisbon, in Portugal, there is a fascinating museum which has horse-drawn coaches and carriages. It is an international museum, and it is the only one of its kind in the world. I went round it not long ago. You proceed through a vast collection of the most magnificent objects—gilt baroque, carriages with angels blowing trumpets from every corner, absolutely magnificent coaches which had even travelling lavatories. These are the coaches of Italy, Sweden, Spain and other countries. They are huge, vast masses of wood and ornament. At the very end of the exhibition you come, rather to your surprise, tucked away in a corner, on the one and only example of British design. This is an eighteenth century British carriage, and it is incomparably better than all the others.

1203
When you see this carriage you suddenly experience the same sensation as we had when we saw the Comet compared to the old piston-engined aircraft. Here was a carriage which was really fit for its purpose. For every member of the Italian and French carriages which is cut out of baulks of timber, this has a beautiful, tapered, engineered piece of timber, of exactly the right tension at every point for the load it had to bear. This carriage is a quarter of the weight, and I think it would have beaten the others to an absolute standstill at Le Mans, if there had been a Le Mans for carriages in the eighteenth century. And going round this exhibition, as an Englishman, you are struck with enormous pride that there was a technology and a standard of design that left the contemporary Continental design absolutely at the starting post.
This was designed in the eighteenth century. What has happened since? Well, since then, of course, we have had the Industrial Revolution and the split which the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, referred to between art and technology, art and engineering, art and industry; and this split, which is really an imaginary split in the minds of men and not a split in the way of thinking or of acting, has bedevilled us ever since. A most interesting book has recently been published by Professor Quintin Bell in which he describes the history of schools of design, and he shows how this dilemma between the fine arts and practice bedevilled our thinking about design, and how to train designers from the Industrial Revolution to the present day. I do not believe that we have really completely cleared this misconception from our minds.
To-day we have the Council of Industrial Design, and their work in this field is magnificent. But the majority of the people who are being trained to fill this gap in our national life in industry to-day are being trained under what is known as the Diploma in Arts and Design, which has recently been set up as a result of the Coldstream Report. This diploma has as its foundation stone the belief that the fine arts are the basic disciplines for design. This is not really discussed or debated in the Report; it is more or less taken for granted and
1204
I do not think myself that this is quite a sufficient basis. It may be satisfactory in certain fields, in what is known as two-dimensional design, but the moment you come into three-dimensional design, into design where you are concerned with objects that people use, that they sit on, tools, the things they get into and out of, then the fine arts are not the basis on which the training of such designers should be built.
The numbers of people in the present Dip.A.D. category who are going to be industrial designers in the engineering field are terrifyingly small. My figures are perhaps from a different source from that of the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, and they are even more gloomy. I understand that in the 1963–64 intake only about 50-plus students are expected to emerge in the field of industrial design from the course for the Diploma in Art and Design; and if we add to them those taking the rather different and, I believe, fine course in the Royal College of Art, we add another 12, but this is a very small number indeed. Of the colleges operating the Diploma in Art and Design, which number 29, on my reckoning only about 6 are offering the courses in industrial design for engineering, and I do not believe that this is going to fill the bill.
We have, therefore, on the one hand, a fantastically small number of designers coming through trained in art schools for the Diploma in Art and Design. We also have the useful appreciation courses which the C.O.I.D. have organised for engineers—Bridging the Gap is the name of the pamphlet, appropriately enough, I think. But I am afraid that it leaves a gap, because, on the one hand, we should have leading engineers, heads of industry, who have had a course of a week or two designed to make them less prejudiced than they may otherwise have been about what designs can do; on the other hand, we should have about 25 or so young men emerging from the Dip.A.D. course; and I do not really believe that this is going to solve our problems.
I want to turn aside for a moment and talk about a possible side-track or wrong course which industrial design risks taking, not merely in this country but in all other countries in the world.

1205
To do so I want to tell the story of the American automobile industry based on Detroit. Until the slump in America the automobile industry brought out a new model when it had a new technological advance. When they brought out a new model it was a different car, with a different chassis, different engine and so on. But after the slump there was a major change of policy, and the great automobile companies decided that they could not go on "monkeying about" with engines, transmission and suspension, but at the same time they thought that it would not do not to make new models. For this reason the American automobile industry are the greatest employers of designers in the world today. Their designers' task is to design in obsolescence by fashion. When you buy a new model there you are buying a differently shaped fin pointing in a different direction, but underneath is the same old engine, the same old suspension, and the same old brakes which the old model had.
That is what we do not want from industrial design. We do not want its main rôle in industry to be the engineering of artificial obsolescence. We see in the Citroen and Volkswagen, foreign as they are, the correct use of designers, and the change in fins to be an incorrect use. It is extremely important, when we think about the education of our designers, to think about the basic sciences and fundamental attitudes which a professional designer should have to prevent his becoming perhaps the unwitting instrument of this artificial obsolescence by fashion. Here I think we see the value of an education which is to some extent university-based and has certain basic scientific and arts disciplines as a fundamental underlayer for the skills which are required in design.
There are, of course, big changes in taste over a period of years. It is not true that there is a perfectly right design which never changes. We must accept that there are certain long-range changes. We all know the old Gothic buildings, with their tall pointed roofs in the early Gothic period, when all the knights and crusaders and their ladies whom we see pictured were very tall, with pointed hats and long thin legs. We all know that later on, in the late Gothic period, for example, in King's Chapel, the arches grew flatter,
1206
King Henry VIII stood in a stolid fashion, his breeches grew much wider and his hat was very flat. These changes pass through the world of design, and it is wrong to expect designers or anyone else to be independent of them. We are none of us independent of this. Some of us may have been wearing wide trousers in the days when the Prince of Wales wore plus-fours. We now wear narrower ones. There is a long-range wave in taste and character which is part of design, and sensitivity to this is nothing wrong in a designer and it is nothing to do with, and quite in opposition to, the artificial engineering of obsolescence.
The clue as to where we need to direct the majority of our attention in the next few years lies in the Fielden Report, to which reference has been made. An integration of design and training of engineers, economists and many other people is absolutely crucial, and we must see design not as something remote from other kinds of academic training but as something as much a part of it as logic. We in England have a culture which has historically been oriented to the verbal. Nearly all our examinations and papers for entry into university are concerned with verbal, rather than visual, skills. There is not much doubt that this is one of the things which have contributed to the separation of the artists, on the one hand, and the businessmen, engineers and others, on the other. We have to break down right throughout educational system, in the schools and the universities, this dichotomy between visual and verbal skills. We have to alter our examination structure so that visual skills are rated more or less in the same bracket with our verbal skills.
The schools of architecture in the last few years in this country have been facing this problem—they have it on their plate. They are partly technical, partly practical, and at the same time visual. In several of the leading schools of architecture to-day research is going on into the wedding of these two strands in our culture. In the School of Architecture at London University there is a Leverhulme research project into creativity. This project is concerned with trying to find the means to identify among schoolchildren those who have these visual gifts and to analyse and

1207
criticise the arrangements in the university so as to foster these gifts rather than suppress them.
In this connection we have come across an interesting piece of research which is being carried out in America. In the United States they pay great attention to the intelligence quotient, or I.Q., as a means of judging a student's intelligence before he comes in. Students are all rated by their I.Q.s, then their performance in examinations is watched, and it has been reported by the people whose books we read that those students who unfortunately did much better in the examinations than their I.Q. suggested they should were put in a category called "over-achievers" and were often sent to see the college psychiatrist.
These researchers endeavoured to identify groups of students who had distinct powers of innovation or for doing the unexpected, and they set a series of tests for them such as giving them a blank sheet of paper and saying to them, "Draw a picture of children playing in the school playground". A large bunch of these students with the highest I.Q. did a good, straight picture of the playground, with decent perspective, showing several children playing in it. Another group of children did rather funny things. One returned a blank sheet with the title at the bottom: "Children playing in the school playground in a thick fog". Others did similar off-beat responses to this question. This group were found to have I.Q.s not much, but a little, below the average, and to constitute the "over-achievers" about whom the Americans were so worried. Of course, these are our future designers. One of the things we shall undoubtedly have to do in education is find the means of spotting these children. We do not yet know how to do it—it is foolish to pretend that we do—but it is worth trying to find such a means and then to make sure that in the educational process to which they are subjected gifts of this sort, instead of being choked back and suppressed, as they often are now, are positively encouraged and brought forward.
What are the main positive steps that we need to take at the present time in
1208
these matters? First of all, we need to establish more very high-class postgraduate schools and institutes for design into which we take people who already have a foundation in some other discipline. I do not believe that we are going to solve the problem of training designers simply by taking a boy from school and saying to him, "You are going to be a designer, my lad", and putting him immediately into a professional design course. I am a great believer that we shall not establish the teaching, the advancement of knowledge and the other things we need in this field, without considerably more work at high level, at a postgraduate level in institutions which are either universities or places of comparable standing among the technological institutions. I also believe that we need to establish industrial designers as a professional body. The time is now ripe for the development of such a body, probably through the Society for Industrial Artists and Designers. This could be a tremendous step forward.
In doing so, we have to think for a moment what a profession really is. A profession is a kind of unwritten contract between society and the body concerned. Society confers on doctors, architects, lawyers and others certain valuable privileges. It removes from them the need to compete with one another, and protects them in a variety of ways. But in return for this, the profession undertakes important obligations to society, and if it does not fulfil these obligations it will soon get thrown out. These obligations are that it sets a standard of professional service, that no member of the profession is permitted to give a service below a certain high standard, and that if he does give such a service he is effectively disciplined. That is the first important responsibility taken on by a profession. This, I believe, designers could and should now do. This means a court of discipline within the profession, because by removing yourselves from the market you are removing from the consumer the power to shop around between good and bad practitioners, and you take on your own shoulders the duty of maintaining a basic standard of service.
The second thing that a profession does —and this is a very important, though less overt, part of the unwritten contract with society—is that it makes itself

1209
responsible for the advancement of knowledge in its field, which is extremely important. It means that the profession takes on its shoulders not the financing of research, but the major responsibility for higher education and the promotion of knowledge that is needed to maintain and continuously improve the standard of the service it gives to the community. This is a great challenge to our designers, but it is one which I believe they could now take up. I hope that they can and that we shall make it possible for them to do so.
4.2 p.m.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, because he approached this subject with education in mind, and he took a view about it with which I find myself in very great sympathy. He also reminded your Lordships that taste, which is an important factor in the demand for design, goes up and down. One learns in business that industry has to produce what the market wants, and the market is very much alive and very sensitive to changes in taste.
The noble Lord did well to mention the eighteenth century which is generally regarded as a high-water mark. The excellence of the industrial arts then associated with building, decorating and furnishing gentlemen's houses is acknowledged by all of us. But if one asks who in Queen Anne's day set the fashion, surely the answer is that the lead came from the top. The architects, the interior decorators, the coach builders whom the noble Lord rightly mentioned, received personally their commissions from the Members of your Lordships' House. It was the excellent judgment of a handful of people which in those days established the standard. The eighteenth century had to come to an end, and a hundred years of so afterwards the enterprising manufacturers in the new towns were turning out goods to be sold ready-made. The workmanship and the materials satisfied the market. They were useful, they were comparatively cheap and, as far as one knows, it did not matter very much how well they looked. But then that age, also, had to come to an end, and I believe it is really remarkable how, since the last war, the pendulum of taste has been swinging again in the right direction.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, for putting down this Motion,
1210
and for the admirable way in which he introduced it to the House. I think he may agree that the reason why if there is not much interest in industry about design, and there is a great deal among the general public, is because the schools, the colleges and the departments of art, the advertising profession—which on the whole does its best to popularise good design—the women's magazines, broadcasting, the Arts Council, the Council of Industrial Design, the Building Centre and many other organisations and services have already accomplished a great deal in educating the public to recognise and demand better designs.
My Lords, this is a many-sided educational advance, and it is in nature altogether different and in scale altogether greater than anything we knew before the war. It is the same with all educational advances of this character: the results take a good long time to come through, but one can already see that the better teaching and communicating of the arts is having a profound effect on all levels of British life. I sometimes think that the growing enthusiasm for the fine arts would not be altogether a good thing if they became isolated and if they were treated as something sufficient unto themselves. This is a point which I believe needs to be made in a debate on industrial design.
I am never very happy when I hear someone say that because a product works well there is no reason why it should not also look well. Such statements create the impression that the two aspects of quality—performance and appearance—are more or less independent of each other, and that if in one product both are excellent that is something contrived from outside the normal workings of the market; a touch of art has been added where it did not naturally belong. I expect that in the nineteenth century it was very difficult to see any close connection between performance and appearance, but that is not true to-day. Since the last war we have made a remarkable social discovery: we have discovered that people who know why a thing works well also want it to look well. Of course, the number of those who know why a product works well has been multiplied many times—those who know what goes on under

1211
the bonnet of the car, or why one piece of kitchen equipment is more efficient than another. Therefore, though it may seem a paradox, it is a fact that scientific and technical education is revealing itself as the most powerful of all stimulants to better industrial design.
I was interested in what the noble Lord said about the motor-car industry. But is it a wider knowledge of æsthetics that is pushing engineers to design better motor cars or better television sets? I think it is much more likely to be the other way round. It is the far wider knowledge of engineering which is prompting manufacturers to take more account of the convenience and the appearance of their products, and of how costs might be reduced by better design.
The desire for information about the performance of articles on sale is a very widely remarked feature of post-war Britain. The noble Baronesses, Lady Elliot of Harwood and Lady Burton of Coventry, know much more about the consumer research organisations than I do. But I think they would agree that the response to these organisations has exceeded even their own expectations.
Where does this intelligent, growing curiosity come from? Where did it start? It must have started in the post-war schools. The better and the more extensive teaching of mathematics, science and practical subjects of all kinds puts the child in the way to ask the right sort of questions about the quality of goods and to understand the expert answers when they are given. And all the time the child is also learning more about the arts as part of the postwar curriculum. This process, which is only beginning since at all levels, in the schools and afterwards, these two kinds of education are rapidly improving, must stimulate a growing demand for better design, not as something separate from the performance of the article but as part and parcel of the performance itself. This is a very important change in the public attitude towards design—or, if you prefer it, in public taste—and it is a point which is often stressed by the Duke of Edinburgh in the speeches in which His Royal
1212
Highness very forcefully calls for greater support for industrial design.
I can now turn to an unusual and challenging feature of to-day's market for consumer and semi-durable goods. If it is true that the rise in the level of public taste is almost wholly due to post-war advances in scientific, technical and art education, then we should expect the demand for good design to come from the younger rather than from the older and more experienced members of society. And this is exactly what has happened. The most insistent customers, the most successful setters of fashion and the best designers are to-day to be found among the young. My generation has not grasped (and perhaps we do not want to) how much the young are forcing their elders to change their ways of looking at things and to change the style and appearance of their surroundings.
A year or two back I was in a secondary school looking at their modern appliances for the teaching of domestic science, and a woman, with her umbrella at a very menacing angle, stopped me. She said, "I'll trouble you not to put ideas into my daughter's head." I was recoiling from this attack when she went on: "You are the man who is responsible for telling Mary that my kitchen stove is no (something) good at all; that I must throw it out and buy another one —and on hire-purchase." My Lords, this woman, when she was at school, had no chance to learn about cookers, curtains or table decorations. But her daughter has; and children like her daughter are changing as rapidly as they can the furnishings and the equipment which satisfied their parents. These young people are doing for hundreds of thousands of small houses and flats exactly what your Lordships' ancestors did for their town and country mansions in the eighteenth century.
There are many other signs, all springing from greater affluence and better education, of the leading part which the young are playing in the revolution in taste. Take the museums, exhibitions or other places where fine things can be seen. They all attract far larger attendances than they did—but who make up the swelling crowds of visitors? They are not a cross-section of the population: everywhere the young predominate.

1213
Thousands of them are brought in parties by their schools; many others come over and over again on their own. Your Lordships may remember that before the war the British Museum itself was almost always empty, but now the tides of teenagers flow in and out daily; and the same is no doubt true of such diverse places as public libraries, Coventry Cathedral or the Design Centre, in the Haymarket.
Such evidence helps to explain what everyone in commerce knows (and here, perhaps, I ought to declare my interest to your Lordships, in that I am a director of a textile firm): that the pressure for the new and better designs is being put on by the very young people. To me, this is inevitable and healthy, and I only wish that more firms found it easier to respond to this pressure and to change their established lines of production. When someone does discover what the young are looking for, and produces those articles, their success is immediate. One can think, for instance, of "jeans" —those skimpy trousers which saved the cheap end of the textile trade; and your Lordships will think of many other such examples. Surprising, sometimes shocking, demands are being made by young people at home and by young nations overseas who, all in their different ways, want the world to look new. Old designs can be just as suspect as colonialism. How then, one must ask, is industry to deal with this upheaval, this rare upheaval, in the youthful end of the market? First and foremost, as has already been said in this debate, those in charge of production should upgrade the industrial designer and look round for young designers who can interpret their generation, give them their chance and risk making a few mistakes.
My Lords, there is one direction in which industry and commerce have only themselves to blame if they have failed to capture these new markets. Too often they pay their salesmen on commission, without reckoning how seriously this system slows up the introduction of new designs. A traveller who gets only a small salary and has to rely on the volume of his sales for his income is afraid to push new lines. He finds it safer to go on selling what he has sold before, and then he tells his directors that what he has sold before is what their customers want—and those
1214
in charge of production are not altogether displeased to hear that. The manager of a shop produces the same bad result, if he is paid by commission, by reserving all the best places in his shop for the articles which have sold well before. All the new lines are tucked away in the background.
I cannot say exactly how serious this payment on commission is in keeping down new designs, but I am quite sure that it is serious enough for industry and commerce to think hard whether in their own interests they should do something about it. They have to face the fact that if demand for gay and youthful consumer goods is not met by our own manufacturers, these goods will be imported. Tariffs are coming down—and a good thing, too!—and anyone can see that the consequences of the millions of trips taken every year by British subjects to the Continent of Europe must be very serious for the balance of payments. When these holiday-makers find across the Channel shapes, colours, designs and styles which take their fancy, they want, when they come home, to see equally striking goods in the shops where they live. If those articles are not being produced by our manufacturers they are going to be imported. That is a very good reason why British design cannot afford to stand still.
Now, my Lords, I will turn for a moment from commercial considerations to the place of better industrial design in our life as a society. I agree with the noble Lord who has just left the Chamber that the spread of good taste among the millions of the population would do more than anything else to heal the divisions which are called the two cultures and which are wrongly attributed to the antagonism between the arts and the sciences. To-day many people are disturbed because the population seems to be divided into technical and non-technical halves, and they pin their faith to the spread of the fine arts among the whole body of the nation. Undoubtedly this is doing a great deal of good, and with the encouragement of the Arts Council and others we know that the arts will continue to do even more good in the future. But why stop at the fine arts? I am sorry to say that Parliament itself still puts the fine arts in a class apart, on the ground that they are

1215
somehow different, less easy to sell and more worthy than industrial design of encouragement by the Government or the local authorities. But is this distinction valid? Is there really any meaning in saying that "pop" art, colleges and mobile constructions are fine art, but that a Mini Minor or the furnishings which can be seen at the Crafts Centre or in a shop like Heal's are not? Or again, what difference in kind can one draw between an abstract painting and a textile design?
Any of your Lordships who visited the Gulbenkian Exhibition now showing at the Tate Gallery must have asked yourselves: "Is all this fine art?" What was one to make of a sculpture called "The Bicycle Race", roughly assembled from odds and ends of wood? How could one say that the two machines in this sculpture were anything like as satisfying as the Moulton bicycle, which has just won a prize from the Council of Industrial Design? Or who, visiting that Gulbenkian Exhibition, would describe as fine art a shabby mohair goat standing on a platform of painted rubbish, his face daubed with pigment and a motor tyre slung around his tummy?
I came away from the exhibition determined to keep my thoughts to myself, and I would have done so if, a day or so later, I had not read an entry in the "Comments" book at the Design Centre in the Haymarket. Four pre-diploma students from the Leicester College of Art had written this about the objects in the Design Centre:
"We think that this is real art and is much more valid than anything in the Tate Exhibition."
I do not go as far as that. Some of the sculpture and painting at the Tate struck me as splendid and worthy of any collection; but that does not diminish the importance of these students' remarks. Here were four young people, training to be artists, saying that industrial design is real art. Can we hope that their verdict, which is the contemporary verdict, will be accepted by the Government and the public? It would make a tremendous difference to Britain's industrial future if it were. The official distinction between the fine arts and industrial design is a relic of the past. It reminds me of the old class distinctions, the upper class, the middle class and the working class; and
1216
it is just about as out of date. But until these old distinctions are abandoned it will not be at all easy to give the industrial designer professional status, as the noble Lord rightly wanted, or to get industry to pay due respect to him or to arrange our educational system so that industrial design occupies its proper place.
My Lords, the noble Lord who preceded me spoke about the Royal College of Art and the other colleges where there are at present some small number of courses in industrial design; and he rightly said that these are undergraduate courses and cover only a very few students. But we must not stop at trying to improve the number of courses at that stage; it seems to me that we have to carry the teaching of industrial design backwards into the schools, where the arts and the technical subjects could be broadened to include an introduction to good and bad design: in engineering goods as well as in textiles, and in transport equipment as well as in kitchen equipment. I have sometimes wondered how I should set about instructing a class of boys in the enormous merits of Mr. Henry Moore's sculpture, and I think I should first get them talking about the difference in the appearance of, say, a Ferrari and a Jaguar. They are already interested in the performance of these cars, and therefore it ought not to be difficult to arouse their curiosity about the design of the coachwork; and from there one could go on to Mr. Henry Moore's shapes and surfaces. It would be an excellent thing if in the schools there could be arranged dialogues of that kind between the teacher of engineering or physics and the art teacher. I have seen it done once, with great effect, and it would be very good for the teacher and would rivet the attention of the pupils.
Much has been made of the Council of Industrial Design and I would add my warm tribute to the Chairman, Sir Duncan Oppenheim, and to Mr. Paul Reilly, the Director. I do not think their premises in the Haymarket are now large enough, and although I look forward to the extension which is going to be possible there I believe that when Piccadilly Circus is redeveloped an opportunity should arise to provide them with a building that will be worthy of

1217
their work. I wonder whether my noble friend who is to reply could give us some encouragement that the Government will do what they can to get the Council of Industrial Design a building designed for themselves when the Piccadilly redevelopment comes about. Meantime, will the Government support the proposal that, either next year or the year after, there should be a really fine exhibition of British design, perhaps held at the Victoria and Albert Museum? This would be of great encouragement to our designers and very good for our export trade.
My Lords, I apologise for keeping the House so long. I have tried to put just two points to your Lordships which, although not strictly commercial, supplement the commercial arguments for good design. The first was that it is an unusual fact that the demand for better design is coming to-day overwhelmingly from the young. In 25 years' time the young will be middle-aged, and then, if we have given the arts their proper place, we may again have a strong and recognisable standard of taste in this country. And the second point is that industrial design can be a much more potent and pervading instrument for reconciliation of the arts and the sciences than has yet been realised. But this means that the old class-like distinctions between the fine arts, the crafts and industrial design must go, and the Government should give us a lead. If these two points were fully accepted, then taste and artistic vigour would spread more rapidly than we have ever known in the past. This debate will have achieved its purpose if it does something to persuade industry and commerce to give the designer his chance and his due. That is something which I believe every one of your Lordships would support. I should like once again to thank the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, for giving me the opportunity of intervening.
4.31 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I wish to deal with the subject of industrial design from the point of view of overseas exhibitions and Britain's image abroad. These exhibitions and Britain's participation in them have as an aim the promotion and sale of British goods overseas. Much excellent work is being done by the Board of Trade, especially by the Export Publicity and Fairs branch, and
1218
by the Central Office of Information, which works to the brief of the Board of Trade. They supply the display material, the staff to mount it and a good deal of the material for display in commercial stores. Frequently, they have the participation of the Council of Industrial Design. For example, this summer there will be a Council exhibit in Milan.
There is, however, a distinction between trade fairs and British Weeks and stores promotions. The organisation of the trade fair is complicated. I spent three years of my life as European director of an exhibition in Jerusalem called "The Conquest of the Desert", which took me to fourteen West European countries to secure their participation. In the United Kingdom it is the Board of Trade which is concerned with participation, and it has a budget this year of nearly £900,000. With this, British participation is secured in 42 trade fairs. Exhibits which are under the auspices of the Board of Trade have to show some commercial return. The Board of Trade is becoming more and more liberal in its definition. So far as purely prestige fairs overseas are concerned, these are a matter for the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office, but these Departments have no control over who is to participate from this country and what exhibits are to be shown. Sometimes a second-rate manufacturer participates and shows fourth-rate products. He may sell them, but the question is: does this represent Britain? I venture to suggest that there is need for greater control, in the interests of preserving the national image abroad.
So far as British Weeks and stores promotions are concerned, there are 20 this year abroad, ranging from exhibits in single stores and in groups of competing stores to exhibits in whole cities. The aim of the stores is to sell more British goods and more goods in general. During these British Weeks, what is it that packs the customers in? In a word, it is Beefeaters. All the traditional images of Britain are employed for publicity overseas—the Lion and the Unicorn, Big Ben, Life Guardsmen, Pipers, Beefeaters and replicas of the Crown Jewels. It is an interesting fact that the Board of

1219
Trade are not permitted to supply replicas of the Crown Jewels: it is left to private enterprise, and there are manufacturers abroad who are making a fortune by making replicas of the Crown Jewels for display in British Weeks overseas. I think that this should be looked into.
What is the significance of this thirst for antiquity? My noble friend Lord Peddie has referred to this interest in the Old Curiosity Shop. Do American visitors to Britain ask first to see an atomic power station? They do not. They want to see the Tower of London and the changing of the Guard. I am all in favour of a spot of colour in a drab climate, and Britain is at a disadvantage in that we cannot use the climate as a drawing card for foreign visitors. I would suggest, however, that with the increased number of visitors from Asia and Africa, those who live in arid zones and suffer from a lack of rain, Britain might even advertise its climate—"You want rain—we have it".
Meanwhile, we have to fall back on the Beefeaters. I have nothing personally against the Beefeaters; I am sure that they are very nice men. But the "cut-outs" sent by the Central Office of Information to Dusseldorf were not at all nice. They were very prosaic. I venture to suggest that Beefeaters can be fun. One needs modern designs, but they can be based on traditional themes, not only Beefeaters. Modern advertising can be witty. We had in the Festival of Britain a great deal of gaiety, lightness and laughter, and I do not see why this should not be employed by designers of British exhibits abroad. The best designs at Dusseldorf were a unicorn and a bobby's helmet—and both those were designed by German designers.
But, however wittily Beefeaters and unicorns are made, there is a danger of encouraging this traditional image. People may say, "Britain is mediaeval. If we want contemporary design, we must go to Scandinavia". It is an interesting fact that at the Design Centre American buyers come in and are agreeably surprised to see new materials, good design and workmanship and competitive prices—and they go on and buy
1220
in Scandinavia. It is not easy to combine the traditional and the contemporary. If you let go of the traditional, you may fail to be contemporary. You may, in fact, end up with a uniform international style. If we take architecture as an example, what is contemporary British architecture? This last week-end I went to see St. Catherine's College at Oxford—which was designed by a Danish architect.
In industrial design, there are some wonderful combinations of the traditional and the contemporary. In pottery, I would cite Wedgwood. Traditional quality, and a knowledge of the export markets and sales, combine with the use both of traditional design and of contemporary design. But all potters are not of that calibre; one firm which was invited to exhibit at a British exhibition overseas refused to show anything except pottery designed between 1730 and 1800. That, I venture to suggest, is over-cautious. The result is that there are many younger British designers who have great difficulty in making a living. They have had excellent training and they are highly skilled, but they cannot get their designs accepted.
The Design Centre is doing a grand job. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said that the Design Centre is a model. It is true that many countries are coming to Britain to look at the Design Centre with a view to establishing design centres of this kind abroad. At the moment, there are delegates from Japan, South Africa and Israel. The total influence of the Design Centre is enormous. Since it was opened, 6 million visitors have passed through its doors, and, as the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, said, it is largely the young people who go there—the "newly weds" who are about to set up house, want to see what lines of furniture are offered, and then they ask for them in the shops. But the choice afterwards is often very limited.
It is true that the Design Centre has a record of qualified designers—there are now some 1,700 on their list—and manufacturers ask the Design Centre for names. Some 600 enquiries a year are received, and short lists of names suggested for each job are sent out. The manufacturers who send in designs for the index send them in at the rate of some 200 a week. There are now 10,000 items on

1221
the index, of which 1,000 are permanently on display. There are, as has been said, two committees, which meet weekly, one for the crafts and the other for light engineering, to approve the designs. The redesign of the exhibits that are not up to standard is suggested by the Council of Industrial Design industrial officer for that particular industry.
Even so, designers have difficulties, and the contemporary field has mainly been left to Scandinavia. The word "modern" to-day is largely taken by buyers and consumers lo mean Scandinavian. The G-plan furniture is by a Danish designer. Where are the British designers? They are just as good. What is Scandinavia's secret. Take Finnish glass, Danish silver or Swedish furniture. I would submit that the secret of these countries, as my noble friend, Lord Peddie, and the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, have said, is the high status of the designer compared to his low status in this country. In Scandinavia the designers are named; they are known and advertised. Here this is very rare. Apart from Gerald Benny, whose name is associated with Viners' cutlery, and the Marquess of Queensberry range of glass and pottery, very few designers are known to the public.
Look at the change when you come to Finland. If you go, as I have been, to the great Arabia glass and pottery works in Helsinki, which is tile largest in Europe, you will see on the top floor half a dozen studios for glass and pottery designers. The leading designers are invited to inhabit these studios. They have their own kilns and free material and labour, and they produce what they like. If the firm likes what they produce it buys the design; it goes into mass production, the designer gets a royalty, and his name appears on every copy. It is considered to be a great honour in Finland to be a designer employed by or working in the Arabia Works.
Something is now being done in this country. There are the design awards; there is the Award of Distinction to designers; and there is the designation "The Royal Designer for Industry". The Society of Industrial Designers, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Llewelyn-Davies, is trying to improve the status of the designer. The Society has 1,700 members, and it has an
1222
entrance examination which raises the level of the membership. It encourages good design through design medallists and through the annual oration. It is now embarking on design research, which my noble friend advocated, or forward planning and the use of research fellowships. It now has a scheme in hand for its own building at a cost of £500,000, with a research library and exhibition halls. I hope that enlightened manufacturers will support this generously. The Society is corn-miffed to drive home the idea that design is not a question of looks or of chromium plating but of convenience, lightness, economy, lower costs and a greater competitive capacity.
People overseas want British goods if they are unique, but Britain has little unique to offer to-day, other than bone china and upholstered furniture. For the rest, we seem to content ourselves with reproductions of Chippendale. It sells well, but is it really suitable for contemporary flats, either in Britain or abroad? We cannot live in the past. The future of British industrial exports lies largely in the hands of designers. They need, I would suggest, not only training, but factory experience and marketing experience. Not only must goods be well designed; they must be made and sold. I suggest that close co-operation between this triumvirate of engineers, designers and salesmen should be fostered by every possible means. When we have such a triumvirate, British exports will be triumphant.
4.48 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I, too, should like to add a few words of support to the Motion that has been put before your Lordships to-day by the noble Lord, Lord Peddie. My qualification, such as it is, for doing so is that I have recently completed a stint of three years as a member of the Council of Industrial Design, a stint which I thoroughly enjoyed and found a fascinating three years' work. I am not certain what the protocol is in your Lordships' House for somebody who has just fulfilled such a task. Perhaps I should play safe and say that anything your Lordships see fit to criticise occurred before or after I joined the Council, and anything of which your Lordships approve occurred while I was a member.

1223
The noble Lord, Lord Peddie, has drawn attention to the Report, and I should like to do that very thing—namely, draw physical attention to the Report itself. I think it is an admirable manner of presenting such a document to Parliament and the country. To start off with, the Report is written in English, which is unusual in cases like this, and for which obviously Mr. Paul Reilly and his staff must be given the credit. I think it is a good example, rightly so coming from the Council of Industrial Design, of how such a Report should be se: out and presented in format, clarity, compactness, printing and design; and it is also produced in accordance with the Design Council's policy of adopting international standard paper sizes. The only thing I can find to complain about is that the price is in shillings. I should have liked to see the price in cents. It is high time that we made up our minds to accelerate the adoption of the decimal currency, not only from a common sense point of view, but also from the view of international trade. It will also give the Council of Industrial Design some chance of getting their hands on our currency and coinage, redesign of which is badly needed. What do we derive, though, from the actual substance of the Report? I would say that the taxpayer, who, after all, contributes nearly £250,000 to the Council, can say that his money has this year not been badly spent. I should say that the most important point that comes from the Report is the greater and growing appreciation of the need for good design—not necessarily a greater appreciation of good design in itself, which is not quite the same thing, but a greater appreciation of the need for good design. The Council of Industrial Design are the spearhead, as I see it, of our new but growing reputation for imaginative, modern design.
Now a few hard things have been said about our standards of design, and harder things will doubtless be said still. I think it is a pity, and I welcomed the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, who has just spoken before me, emphasising that what is really needed is encouragement to the good designer, a greater sense of publicity, and a greater social status for the good designer. We all remember Koko in The Mikado and his list which included
1224
"The lunatic who praises in enthusiastic tone Every century but this and all centuries but his own."
It becomes fashionable to abuse a piece of bad design. Well and good. But let us remember to praise the increasing amount of good design. Let us therefore single out the increasing numbers of good designers who are coming more to the forefront of our commercial and industrial life. If we are not yet leaders in design, we are at least pioneers in the encouragement and the propaganda of good design. I was glad, therefore, to hear many speakers in this debate praise the work of the Council in fostering exhibitions abroad—there have been many more than I think are realised—and not only in doing that, but in giving advice to other countries. Many countries have copied our own Design Centre, many more have asked for our advice, and the Council are in a position to put on exhibitions all over the world at quite short notice. I believe there are five this year alone.
I do not think it is wise, though, to judge the Council's work solely by the Design Centre and its exhibitions. The scope of the Council's work is much wider than that. The Design Centre is really only that part of the iceberg that shows. if I understood my three years' work aright, the Council's main function is so to change the climate of opinion that, whenever a design problem arises, management will automatically reach for a qualified designer.
What, therefore, are the next steps, as we see them, to be taken on the Report which is before us this afternoon? What, for instance, are the next steps to be taken by the Council themselves? I think that the physical increase of space for the Council is obviously excellent, but I would back the plea of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, for, in due course, much larger premises. But assuming they have to work within the existing premises, then I think the Council are on the right lines in branching off into new fields of packaging, presentation, clothing and engineering. In this counrty we have made a lot of progress in packaging—more than most people realise—but in presentation, not quite so much.
One form of presentation to which I hope the Council will draw particular

1225
attention is shop window dressing, in which in some respects we lag behind our competitors abroad. Of course, the real trouble is that the Council's problem is not what to tackle next, but what to omit, because the field is so wide. But I particularly welcome the intention to give more attention to capital goods and machinery. The noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, mentioned the attractive operation of "over-achieving". I think that, in the realm of heavy industry and capital goods, we are going to run into a certain number of under-achievers. We are going to find a lot of manufacturers and engineers who do not believe that there can be any link between design and heavy engineering. People are going to turn round and say, "Well it is a nice idea, but when you get down to it, what is the function of design in a nuclear power station or a marine turbine?" Of course, they are wrong, but we are going to have this opposition and prejudice. There are still some people, I am afraid, in the industrial North who frankly think that design is "sissy". The idea that in the North they make things and that everything south of Leicester is overheads dies hard.
Several noble Lords have mentioned the subject of cars. This is a field, I think, where improved industrial design is much needed. Sweeping generalisations are not going to help, but the number of criticisms both in the consumers publications and in the trade and technical journals concerning the detailed design of many of our cars are too numerous and too pointed to be ignored. I will not go so far as to agree with one of the trade papers, which only three weeks ago pointed out that one of our smaller and, for some reason, popular cars is clearly designed to be driven by an all-in wrestler of 4 ft. 7 in. with three arms. But that there is room for improvement in the ordinary day-to-day field of design in the motor industry, I think will be admitted.
The Council, of course, have to some degree turned their attention to heavy industry and heavy industrial design in the past, and there is serving upon the Council Mr. W. L. Mather of the firm of Mather & Platt, and he had a very interesting article on this subject in the supplement to the Financial Times, to which the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, re-
1226
ferred. In it he made this remark. He talks about the appearance of heavy equipment, and says:
"Appearance and ergonomics should be built into the machine, and not added as expensive afterthoughts."
I trust your Lordships know what ergonomics are? I do now. An ergonomist is one who studies the physical and psychological requirements of the user in relation to the product. It is a word we are clearly going to hear a lot in the jargon of the design boys in the years to come. When you go into the Red Lion and ask for your "usual", and the barmaid pushes across your double Scotch or pint of bitter, she is an ergonomist. I doubt whether she knows it, and she would probably give you a very old-fashioned look if you told her. But that is what she is.
To conclude on the subject of heavy equipment, I would make one practical suggestion to my noble friend who speaks for the Government. Sir Duncan Oppenheim, who has been a wholly admirable Chairman of the Council, must in the foreseeable future hand over the reins of office. I wonder whether it would be possible for the Government to consider appointing in his place a heavy industrialist or an engineer or somebody connected with capital goods in a prominent way. I believe if that were to be done it would give a valuable lead to this important branch of the Council's work.
So much for what the Council can do. What can trade and industry do? Much reference has been made to the Council's record of designers—a unique record. This is not just an employment agency for out-of-work designers; it is a really practical means of helping industry. It is a service of recommendation and introduction between designers and industry. I believe it handles between 700 and 800 requests a year. I speak from personal experience as a customer. I have used the record on two or three occasions with profit and value. I wish that industry would make more use of it, and I wish that those who have used it would pass around the word of the value that can be derived from this service. That is one thing I believe trade and industry could do: make greater use of the Council's record of designers.
There have been several admirable examples in industry over the years of

1227
firms and organisations that have been in the forefront of good design. If we are throwing abuse about—as we have been rightly doing—I think praise should be given where it is due. I would single out four organisations who set an admirable example in this respect—London Transport, the General Post Office, the Orient Line and Harvey's of Bristol. Although I have emphasised the need for bringing the capital goods, particularly engineering, into the forefront of this campaign—primarily because they feature so largely in our exports—we must not, of course, ignore the home market.
The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, referred to the shopkeeper, who has a very important part to play because it is he who is really, as much as anybody, capable of moulding, changing or encouraging taste as it immediately affects the public. The noble Viscount also talked about the variation in taste, and he made, I think, an important point when he talked about the possible damage done by the commission system.
I remember one meeting of the Council of Industrial Design when a particularly popular carpet which has been on the floors of second-class boarding houses at seaside resorts for fifty years (and looks like it) was being discussed, and the Council was indignant about it. It was time it vanished from the whole of our commercial world. We abused it, up hill and down dale. I happened to mention this to one of our leading carpet manufacturers from Kidderminster a few days later. He said: "I am perfectly prepared to bow to the superior taste and experience of you and your colleagues "—those are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. "But ", he said, "this design has been far and away our best selling line. It is the line on which most of our customers make their profit. If we discontinue it the man in the street will merely take his custom to our rivals. Do you wish us to starve?—because that will be the result of your policy."
It is not easy to argue with that and to tell the manufacturer how he should put that right. And there is another side to the coin. At a subsequent meeting of the Council of Industrial Design a new carpet was before us which met with our universal praise, my own included.
1228
It was a beautiful piece of work and it fulfilled every requirement. It received two, if not three, prizes and two international awards. It was highly commended in both the trade and the general Press of this country and it received wide commendation abroad. There was only one thing wrong with it; nobody would buy it. There is, as I say, another side to the coin; and I do not think we have yet solved that problem. It does, however, emphasise the importance that the public can play in this campaign.
The C.O.I.D. have their part to play. Trade and industry have their parts to play. So have the public in refusing to buy shoddy goods; in complaining bitterly when goods are not fit for the purpose for which they are bought. The fact is that the public are undoubtedly becoming more and more interested. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, is perfectly right. I think the interest shown in modern architecture; in things like street furniture and in street signs and traffic signs, shows how much more aware the public are becoming of the need for good design and good taste.
Lastly, what can Her Majesty's Government do?—because, as the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, rightly pointed out, the lead must come from the top. What further lead can Her Majesty's Government give? I say "further lead" advisedly, because I think the Government have done a very great deal in this respect and have given a good lead and powerful support to the Council for Industrial Design. The Council would, therefore, I think, welcome continued support, continued publicity and continued propaganda. A plea for more money is a little too easy to make, and I do not make it, for that reason, although I know that the Council would welcome more to enable them to continue their work, both in education and in propaganda, particularly in the schools, as your Lordships have rightly pointed out, and in a field where television could undoubtedly be a powerful ally.
My Lords, may I suggest to noble Lords opposite that a good field for propaganda would be in the trade union movement? After all, about nine-tenths of the items on display in the Design Centre are made by union labour with union hands. They are made by men and women who should be anxious that

1229
the work of their craft and their hands reflects not only their earning capacity but their own taste and appreciation of the goods which bear their stamp. I am not criticising in any way, but I would suggest that there is a fertile field for more propaganda; for getting the trade unions who are responsible, and the craft industries, the heavy engineering unions about which we have been talking so much this afternoon, much more interested in design. The Government have set a good example themselves in many respects. I mention particularly the General Post Office. I think, by general consent, the ordinary, humble pillar box is one of the most successful pieces of industrial design we can see to-day. The only better design is its Victorian six-sided predecessor.
The Government are not always quite as good as the General Post Office. In hospitals, particularly, there is a great deal of room for improvement; and if you want to know exactly how well-designed a hospital should look, have a look at the Princess Margaret Hospital at Swindon. I will not name the hospitals one should not look at, but the number of hospitals where a casualty from a road accident is brought in on a stretcher straight through the waiting room of the out-patients is too high. One can give numerous examples where the Government could improve their activities. Hospitals, yes; Embassies abroad; Government offices themselves, some of which are shameful examples of any form of taste or design, and London Airport, which started off with such commendably high hopes in the field of design and which has now become an indescribable design shambles. The Regional Electricity Boards, with their siting of power stations and design of substations and nylons, leave a lot to be desired. I hope Her Majesty's Government will make it a rule that they will never launch any project of this sort where there is a design element without setting the example of applying to the Council of Industrial Design far guidance and help and making certain that they are complying with the highest possible standards.
The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, is an ordinary Motion for Papers. His colleague the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, a newcomer to your Lordships' House, the other day questioned what would happen if a
1230
Motion for Papers were moved and not withdrawn. I do not want to incur the wrath of my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, who has never shown me anything but kindness, but I wonder whether it would not be a good idea if the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, were to press his Motion on the Order Paper to-day. The Papers which the Government could give would be a list of projects which are now on their "Order Paper" and which involve some element of design. This would prove conclusively that they had lived up to their own good intentions and consulted the Council, and in each case taken the necessary advice. It is not my business, and I put this forward with some temerity. I am perfectly aware that by so doing none of my old friends at the Board of Trade will ever talk to me again—and I have had enough of boycotts recently.
5.9 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I should like first of all to apologise to your Lordships for not having been here at the beginning of the debate and to express my disappointment that I was unable to hear my noble friend Lord Peddie. As he knew, I have been in the chair all day at a meeting of the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council. The second introductory point I must make is on the same lines as one made by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft—except that mine is in the present tense. I am a member of the Council of Industrial Design, and I should obviously declare my interest.
The Introduction to the Annual Report we are discussing, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has much in it that we can take to heart. There is great interest among all laymen to-day in architecture and design. I find, as I go around, that most people have views, and very strong views, about the new modern blocks of offices or buildings that are going up. And we also find, of course, that Members of Parliament have very strong views upon the projected extensions of our Parliamentary precincts. But, looking at the Introduction to this Report to-day, I do not know that I personally accept the comment that
"The post-war building boom has done little to advance the cause of architecture."
In other countries I think that it has done a good deal, and I must say, with

1231
deference to the noble Lord, Lord Bossom, and others more qualified in this matter than I am, that there are many modern buildings in this country that I myself like. But what I believe is important is that people do hold vehement opinions about these buildings and that, in general, they are considering very much more than in the past what is going up in front of them. This was brought home to me very forcibly during the building of the new Coventry Cathedral, and it really became—I do not know if one can say a political issue, but at any rate a very burning issue at all public meetings in Coventry, whether one did or did not like the particularly modern changes brought about in that building.
I should like to bring to the attention of the House—and I apologise if it has been done already—part of the second need mentioned in the first page of this Introduction, the need
"to persuade people to make and buy not down to a price but up to a standard, not down to a convention but up to a tradition of experiment and development, so that quality in its widest sense, which includes design, should again become our yardstick."
Not long ago I was talking to someone who said that he considered that Continental manufacturers were in general more aware of good design than we were here. He advanced the thought that one reason for this might be that architectural standards were higher in Europe than in this country; and he went on to say that he thought that design should always be considered as an integral part of social development.
The question I should like to put to the House (I do not know if the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, will feel able to answer it) is this: is it true that good design can never flourish in a mediocre environment? Because that was the question I was asked and I did not feel qualified to answer it. Whether or not we deserve such criticism is one matter. But I think undoubtedly there is to-day an increasing concern with actual designing to suit and appeal to the user. I am told that some 60 or 70 capital goods firms have recently used, or are using, industrial designers in order to achieve these aims. At first the figure of 60 or 70 did not greatly impress me, but I think that if we look at this figure within the context of the whole industry
1232
we shall find that it is similar to the number of engineering firms in the consumer goods fields who are also using designers at the present time.
I do not know whether the House is aware of it, but I have been told that industrial designers feel very strongly that they are less subjected to pressures from sales, marketing and advertising interests than are designers of consumer goods. They say that while in both consumer and capital goods fields the production people tend to have the last say, but I know that industrial designers feel that in consumer goods they are subject all the time to the influence of advertising and sales considerations. They say that to them there seems to be a larger margin here for personal expression, and more people think they have a right to express an opinion, whereas with capital goods the contact. is with the engineers rather than with the advertising and sales people.
To-day I should like to divide my brief remarks into two categories, the first being general and the second affecting the consumer. We all realise that generalisation is risky, but I believe that in the world of industry to-day, competitive as never before, efficiency and good design must go together. I believe that if you have efficiency and good design you will always have a better product than if you have only one of those qualifications present. From what background have I come to feel this? It is a background of very much less experience than that of many of your Lordships. But I have come to feel it from the background of the coal industry, as Chairman of the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council; from the motor car industry, as member of Parliament for Coventry, South—and I would endorse all that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said about the stories that come to us, shall we say, of improvements that could be made in our motor cars; and also in the field of consumer durables, where I now have experience, and of course, like the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, in our joint background affecting consumer problems over many years.
In spite of many criticisms I feel that design is now being given more careful consideration by many sections of the economy; indeed, the general attitude towards good design is most encourag-

1233
ing. As I have talked to people it has seemed to me that British industry to-day realises that its main problem is to find more and better designers. But I have also been told that the standard of design in the British engineering industry is falling behind that of our foreign rivals. And the reason for this, I have been told, is that in this country the design office has not remained such an important part of the organisation as is the case with organisations overseas. I do not think that my experience makes me competent to say whether or not that comment is true. But I feel that there must be some truth in it, simply because the engineering industry and the world of industry are looking for these designers to-day. And it seems to me they will get them only in one way; first of all by admitting our need is for more qualified designers; secondly, by being prepared to pay for them; and, thirdly, by being prepared to give them status. I shall come back later to the question of status, and I was glad to hear two previous speakers mention this.
I do not know how many of your Lordships noticed a letter in the Financial Times on July 31 last. It makes some points that I should like to repeat, because I think they are very relevant to-clay, and it may be that the Minister will have some comment to make on them when he comes to wind up. The letter said:
"If the designer today lacks status and recognition this was not so in Victorian times when names such as Napier, Whitworth and Parsons were household words. These men were, of course, not only engineers but also chairmen and directors of their own firms. To-day these positions are most often occupied by financiers and accountants."
The next point has already been brought up by the noble Lord who has just sat down.
"To-day, apart from a few isolated examples, designers have become completely anonymous; this has contributed more than anything else to the general lack of distinction in engineering design."
The letter went on to say something that obviously was pleasant to me:
"The appearance design people manage things a lot better, chiefly through the efforts of the Council of Industrial Design. It is about time the real creators of mechanical and electrical devices are given public recognition."
The letter suggested that this could be done by a system of awards analogous
1234
to the Duke of Edinburgh's Award for elegant design. The writer continued:
"There would probably have to be several categories since it is not easy to compare, say, a hovercraft with a horizontal borer, but this is one way to bring the designer out of the back room in which he has languished for so long."
I should like to ask the Minister whether he feels able to comment on this statement. Do the House, and the Government. consider that more adequate recognition of design and designers is overdue, or do they feel that we really can compete with the rest of the world in this respect?
Coming to the consumer, the Motion we are discussing to-day calls attention of the Annual Report of the Council of Industrial Design. For a great many years I have felt, and still feel, that the Council of Industrial Design stands for authoritative and responsible opinion on any aspect of design. All I stand for is the consumer, without technical knowledge —and that may apply to a great many of us speaking to-day. In this capacity a few months ago I spoke to a conference of designers on the place of the consumer in design. The first thing I want to say to the House is: is there such a place—apart from buying what is produced? And, if there is one, who am I to define it? This is not false modesty. But when considering points like this, my mind goes back to the war years and to the introduction of "Utility". Anybody will agree with me —I am quite sure that any woman will— that, in so far as clothes were concerned during the war years, if you could buy the best "Utility" you got far and away the best bargain in the shops. If you could not afford it, or you bought above it for reasons of snobbishness you did not get anything nearly so good. This, I think, meant a strong advance in public taste in those years, particularly in the clothes world, because some of the best designers first of all made for the mass market.
I was going along quite happily advancing this theory not many years ago, when suddenly somebody pulled me up short and asked, "Who are you to say what is good style for others?". And, who indeed? I have never forgotten that, and I think we must all realise that any of us, qualified or not, who get up in this House, or elsewhere, and venture to tell

1235
people what is good style and what is not lay ourselves open to the same sort of criticism. Well, speaking for the non-technical consumers, what place have we in the work of the designer? I am sure that Lady Elliot of Harwood and I will have some points to advance on this.
Before I took that conference, obviously I read what I could and sought opinions where I could; and on this question of the place of the consumer I came up against many queries. I am going to mention only three of them to-day—namely, is design for the professional? Does the consumer know what he wants? Surely a manufacturer must make what he believes to be right and not get the customer to make that decision for him? On that last point I myself have a query. It is this: Do manufacturers underestimate public taste? What account do manufacturers and designers take of consumer requirements? I should like to ask industry and designers, whether they feel that we consumers, whether we are large or small purchasers, whether private or public enterprise, are there to have just what is produced? Is that our function?
This, I think, raises a fundamental point. I believe it is one which is becoming more and more important every day, in this age when modern advertising is now so closely involved with market research. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was not a Member of our House when we discussed the Molony Report in November 1962, but I am sure that he will know as well as I do that, on page 287 at paragraph 873, this sentence appears:
"We regard consumer research in the sense of investigating the type and characteristics of goods needed by the consumer, as a consumer luxury and not an essential feature of a system of production (except in regard to safety aspects)".
I, and I think a great many other people, reject this entirely, and I should like to advance, for the consideration of the House, that surely research into consumer needs is much more constructive than collecting complaints after the wrong products, or products with avoidable faults, have been manufactured. I think this tends to be ignored. Since saying that nearly two years ago, I was interested to read, and recommend to your Lordships, an article printed last
1236
November in Design, which is the magazine of the Council of Industrial Design, written by Elizabeth Gundrey, and called, I thought most aptly, "The Trade in After-thoughts". I want to quote only one-and-a-half sentences from it:
"A lot of supplementary enterprises thrive on the dropped stitches of incompetent designers. That they can exist and prosper merely through repairing the omissions of inadequate design indicates on what a large scale bad designs sell, and go on selling, even when generations of purchasers have recognised their badness".
Why I said that I thought this question of research was becoming more important every day, is that it really seems to me that while a large part of our economic activity to-day is devoted to supplying known needs, a considerable and increasing, part of it goes to ensure that we consume what industry finds it convenient to produce. I think that we should not just be mere receptacles for what is turned out. I suggest, therefore, that basic research is also needed to supplement the limited objectives of existing consumer organisations, to research into the goods and services that are not on the market, into the consumer's image of the product, into the basis of his purchasing habits and decisions, into his real needs, and finally into choice itself. In fact, briefly, I think that market research involves, and must involve, an exploration of the requirements of the user. I wonder what the Minister feels about this. In other words, what use does he think should be made of market research by the mass producer and the designer.
Following on from that, we come to a most pertinent query, but one that I think is difficult to answer. What does the consumer mean by good design? To be quite obvious, I think we would all mean something we like. That is the matter in short. But, why do we choose something in a shop? Because we like it. We might like the look of it. We might like the style. We might think, "What a good idea it is". It may be fresh or it may be original. I think all this adds up to what we feel is good design. But when you come to actual pattern in such things as textiles or tiles or china, wallpapers, plastics, or carpets —this, I think, is personal, and you can only like a pattern yourself. Finally, if you say to a person, "What is it

1237
about that that you like?", I think he will often say, "I do not know; I just like it". What do we expect from it? I think that Lady Elliot of Harwood would agree with me: sometimes the impossible.
However, I think we expect to get reasonable value for money. We expect the things that we purchase to carry out the object of their being. I think we must realise that you cannot expect the same service from cheap goods as from expensive ones, as people sometimes do. I think we have to differentiate, too, between "cheap" and "inexpensive". I am sure that it would do a great disservice to the British public, or any public, if inexpensive goods were to disappear. We all know that for a holiday one buys a cheap pair of holiday shoes or a dress, and one is satisfied if these last for just that one holiday. That, I think, is something which is perfectly permissible.
I believe that one of the most important factors in the encouragement of original industrial design, or any design, is this vexed question of status. I should like to comment here—I do not know whether we are worse than other countries—that we are slow to learn on this particular point. What about the status of the designer? I think that the influence of the designer should be paramount on what the consumer actually gets. I think that for two reasons, because I think that a good designer must have two gifts: he must have the ability to analyse consumer problems, whether these are for the private consumer or the public one, and he must have the imagination to solve them. I agree with the expert who said, "Research and facts never created a thing; it is what you do with them that counts".
In view of that, have designers the status to influence manufacturers sufficiently so that what they say goes? I am doubtful whether they have. This is an important point, for I believe that we is consumers need education on design. We need it to appreciate something fresh or something original, whether in goods in a shop, in architecture, or whatever it may be. I am convinced that every noble Lord in this Chamber will agree that, whether it be listening to music, looking at Coventry Cathedral, or watch-
1238
ing ballet, the first time one sees or hears something different one's attitude is likely to be: "Quite honestly, I do not understand it—it is beyond me." But often, if one goes on seeing it, or listening to it, one gradually comes to appreciate it. It is necessary for all of us that this sort of help is given. We must refuse the mediocre, however acceptable it may seem. We should never have got Coventry Cathedral if we had accepted the mediocre. But we need to be educated to that standard. If our minds are to be kept fresh and receptive, we need the constant presentation of good design to enable us to discriminate and to appreciate originality. This is where the Council of Industrial Design have a vital part to play. It is also true to say that knowledgeable and persistent demand for good design in the home market is the best basis for an improvement in the quality of our exports.
On the question of status, I would remind your Lordships that this is nothing new—it keeps cropping up. In our debate on leisure, just prior to the Whit-sun Recess, my noble friend Lord Gardiner referred to a Report by the Select Committee on Estimates in another place which examined the Youth Service in 1957. I was Chairman of that Committee. We sat for twelve months, at the end of which we discovered some obvious factors that should have been known from the beginning. We discovered that the Youth Service was lacking in impact on the public because it had not status. It had not status in the minds of the Government, who did not give it enough money; the people who were working in it had not enough status to encourage recruits. Last year I spoke to the Purchasing Officers' Association, whose members in 1963 spent approximately £10,000 million in this country buying capital goods; and yet the members of that Association felt that they were entirely lacking in the status and prestige necessary to enable them to do their job. And so we go on. I feel that this is something we must take care of to-day.
To return to the Annual Report that we are discussing, we see on page 9 these words:
"No longer a novelty, the Design Centre has become an acknowledged reference point for everyone concerned with good modern design in the products of British industry."

1239
I believe that the Centre deserves the support of individuals, of industry and of the Government of the day.
5.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT CHANDOS: My Lords, I should like to say what an agreeable experience it is for me to hear the noble Lady who has just resumed her seat. It gives me a feeling of nostalgia and makes me regret perhaps the passing of the days when I used to hear her in another place.
I must begin by declaring my interest. I happen to be Chairman of the appeal for £500,000 which is being launched by the Society of Industrial Artists and Designers. This £500,000 is needed to build, equip and partially endow a centre for industrial designers: to be a focus, a headquarters, an academy, for designers of industrial products. It may be asked why a body of professional men are appealing to industry and the public to support such a centre. Are not industrial designers paid—and perhaps well paid? Should they not be able to look after themselves, to realise their own aspirations, to secure their own future by their own efforts? I do not feel that such an argument is well-founded. The truth is that just as the Royal Academy or the Royal College of Surgeons are a near necessity for the portait painter or the surgeon, so is the centre for industrial design. If left to the profession itself to finance, it might take half a century to bring it to birth. In short, in making my contribution to this debate, I not only seek your Lordships' interests; I am also after your Lordships' money, whether individually subscribed for this object (and I hope some noble Lords have taken out their cheque books), or subscribed corporately by your Lordships.
The broad justification for the appeal rests on a lot that has been said this afternoon, but in the main on two arguments, the first commercial, and the second æsthetic, or perhaps even social. I will not discuss the commercial aspects at great length; they should be fairly obvious. The ever-increasing range of products which modern science and modern industry puts at the disposal of the public all over the world demands an ever-increasing attention to their design, if they are to be acceptable. By that I mean what the noble Lady said—acceptable to a public which is be-
1240
coming more and more educated in these matters. You cannot, in 1964, wrap up fish in a sheet of the Daily Telegraph or the Daily Herald and expect to compete. And from that axiomatic proposition, it is clear that we shall fall behind if the design or packaging of any product falls below the standards of our competitors.
Taste is the cheapest and one of the most effective invisible exports. What, for instance, does the French Government owe to "chic", to name only one instance, achieved by its designers? In their way what have Dior, or Schiaparelli, or Balmain, or Chanel, to name only a few which occur to the mind of a man as ignorant on these subjects as I am, contributed? Perhaps they have contributed as much to the French economy as would the export of several thousand tons of phosphate rock or bauxite. To put the matter on its lowest level, we cannot compete with many products designed by the French, and an increasing number designed by the Italians, unless we mobilise our natural taste—which is inherently no less than theirs. Your Lordships know of the far-sighted and imaginative work which is done in many of our academies of art, and of the great and increasing number of brilliant young men who are graduating. But there is a gap, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, touched on this very point. I am sure he is right, and that here is a field in which a great effort must be made to bring these graduates into much closer relationship with the producers and thus improve the whole standard of taste.
I thought that my noble friend Lord Mancroft, after hitting a number of bull's-eyes, then devoted himself to hitting a number of magpies. In a rather pontifical manner, he drew some lessons, based upon entirely false premises, about heavy industry, who he said were far behind the consuming industries in their esthetic approach. I doubt whether the large manufacturers of turbines or even of locomotives would feel very sensitive to this question. When one sees well-designed power stations, I wonder whether the concrete gnomes and flights of duck over bathrooms, and such things, should not make one feel that we in heavy industry ought not to be so criticised. Most of the products of heavy industry go to the great nationalised

1241
bodies, and it is far easier to get a standard of design accepted by a large customer like that than it is to force a good design upon the people who want concrete gnomes in their gardens.
I would ask whether it sounds right that a country as supreme in Europe as we are, for example in poetry, and a country which can claim some fairly distinguished names—Sir Christopher Wren, Nash, and the Adam Brothers amongst its architects, and Chippendale and Sheraton among its designers, should spew out from its factories certain products. I must confess that my own industry on the consumer side is one of the worst offenders; I think we are a little better now. But when I first saw the electric light fittings produced (shall we say?) chiefly by my competitors they appeared to be like a number of illuminated dental fillings; and they are not all that much better now.
Then there are the fabrics in imitation of a lost society. I never feel very comfortable sitting in a chair with the Pytchley hounds in full cry. I feel we could do better than that, and noble Lords will very likely, before they go to bed to-night, have that experience. In my ministerial life at the Board of Trade I was responsible for doing something to further British taste in textiles by official support. I claim that this effort has had considerable success and many of our fabrics reached very high standards of design and attraction. I think that anybody looking at this Report would feel that a great deal had been done since I was a young man—just after the Crimea —when these things were not so good. Now they have certainly improved a great deal, but there is very much more to be done. That is all I have to say about the commercial aspects of this question.
I should like to conclude very shortly by a word on the wider aspects of æsthetic responsibility. It sounds pretty portentous. I can see no reason—it requires only a little trouble—why we should leave monuments to posterity which may well be representative of the lowest and most vulgarised sections of our taste. To-day we have nearly, but not quite, worked ourselves into the belief that what is purely functional is ipso facto æsthetically desirable. If that point of view had any foundation, we could well
1242
imagine the collectors and heads of the museums in the twenty-second century equipping their room containing the products of the twentieth century with nothing but water closets, petrol pumps and Flit guns. But any reflection, I think, would show that what is functional is not ipso facto beautiful. We all know that, and the proposition is clearly absurd, and yet it is hardly less absurd than the converse, which is to imagine that what is purely functional must ipso facto violate, or fall short of, the canons of æsthetic propriety.
Taxation, as I should say, or progress as some noble Lords opposite who are Socialists would perhaps say, has destroyed the patronage of the privileged class. No longer can the eldest sons of your Lordships make the grand tour and return with some of the spoils of the Italian Renaissance to grace English homes, and to help form the taste of future generations. All art depends largely on the patron, and with a wide, increasing and better educated public we must by corporate action replace the private patron, sometimes by State help as in the National Gallery or the National Theatre, and at others by helping private bodies such as the Society of Industrial Artists and Designers, which, without diffidence, I bring to the attention of your Lordships this afternoon.
5.43 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I am not going to delay your Lordships very long. Having just listened to the most entertaining speech of my noble friend Lord Chandos, whom I think we hear too rarely in this House, I will just add one or two points to this debate as Chairman of the Consumer Council. The Report, I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Mancroft, is a most admirable document and beautifully produced; it has everything we want to see and read and it has every merit. There are in it two or three references to the consumer and to the Consumer Council. I think that my organisation has a very close association with the Council of Industrial Design. I think that we can work closely together—I hope we shall—and I can assure your Lordships, and those interested in the Council of Industrial Design, that it is one of the things that

1243
I am most anxious we should do. I think our interests are closely allied.
It is important that everything that can be done to raise the standard of taste and production—that the Council are doing—should be backed up by those of us who are trying to raise the taste of the public. On that my Council has embarked—on an educational programme which I hope will lead to people who go into the shops asking for the goods which are of good design.
My second reason for taking part is that we in the Consumer Council are also working for something which has not been mentioned to-day, but which I think is part of the whole idea of design, and that is the Craft Centre and the work of craftsmen, which is being threatened by their not having enough money and not being able to develop their work. A great many noble Lords have spoken about the importance of design for industry and the consumer. My noble friend Lord Mancroft mentioned one or two lines on which the Council of Industrial Design are embarking, which I think are most interesting, and will be of great interest to the consumer. He also mentioned (and on this I entirely agree with him) the extraordinary conservatism of taste of the ordinary person in this country. This has nothing at all to do with politics. It is just that what people know, see every day and are used to is what, on the whole, they like. If the "what-not" is not where the "what-not" was before, they really do not like it as much as they thought they would: and this, of course, is very inhibiting to those people who want to encourage originality, as we all do. We want to encourage new designers.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, that the status of the designer is something we want to encourage. Why should people not be known by their names as great designers? My noble friend Lord Chandos has spoken of the great Paris designers who, as he rightly said, have done such marvels for France. Let us see that the great designers of any object are known by name and recognised. It is no good, as my noble friend Lord Mancroft said, producing something which the consumer does not want to buy; and his story of the carpet is, I am afraid, one that could
1244
be repeated on many occasions. Again, how often does one go into a shop and see something which attracts one because it is of good and attractive design, only to find when one looks at it that it comes from abroad; it is a foreign object? It may not be of such good quality, but the design is one that attracts us. Therefore, I think it is most important that we should encourage the British designer to produce original designs.
I well remember the work of the late Sir Ambrose Heal, which was so original and brought quite new ideas and designs into the very simplest household goods many years ago. To-day, the firm of Heal's, under his son, is carrying on and is producing original and beautiful designs. Someone said, I think quite rightly, that it is not only in the expensive shops that we want to see beautiful designs, but also in the shops selling less expensive goods; and that can equally well be done. It is a question of encouraging the designer in the first place. The noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, emphasised the importance of the fitness for purpose of new designs. They must be easy to obtain, and the cost of production must not be too high. We want to encourage good design and the cost must be something which the consumer can pay for.
It is interesting if one looks back. Only the other day, I discovered in an attic in my home a telephone which I think must be sixty years old. It was probably the first ever put into the house, and it was the most extraordinary object I have ever looked at. It bore absolutely no resemblance to the neat, coloured object which we have put on our desk to-day, and when I looked at it I thought to myself: What a long way we have come from this Victorian object—I suppose it was considered a masterpiece in its time—to the present simple and every-day object which is very well suited for the job we want it to do. I think that from time to time it is a good thing to compare the past with the present, because we then see how far we have come in good design.
I should like to say one word about this question of craftsmen and the encouragement of craftsmen. Both in Scotland and in London there are Craft Centres—places where individual craftsmen can send their work, and where it

1245
can be judged by experts. If it is sufficiently good and practical it can be taken for industrial use. I think it is important to encourage originality and new designs in both materials and workmanship, and the Crafts Council exist to encourage this type of work. The Council of Industrial Design are, I know, anxious to display the work of individual craftsmen, and have offered to organise a display when their new display rooms are ready. I want to urge this on the Board of Trade and the Minister, and to ask whether they will support this and not turn it down merely because it will cost a little money. It may, in the long run, save a lot of money, since who knows that some budding genius may not hit on a design of great value to manufacturers and industry, and of great help to the consumer? Of course, it is necessary to he selective, and not all craftsmanship is good; but, in that way, we may find something that will be of great value. I hope that the Design Centre will be able to take this up, and that the Board of Trade will not jib at having to produce £16,000 or £18,000, since that is a very small sum of money, compared to the amount of money which has to be spent on getting good designs; and I hope that this will help in the search for good design and skilled workmanship.
My Lords, I believe that the public do respond. I have said that they are conservative, and it is true that a large proportion of them are. But there is a proportion, perhaps the younger members of the public, which more readily responds to new ideas in this generation than in some others, since they travel abroad; they go and see things which they have never seen before, and their eyes get more accustomed to change. Certainly that is so in new building. If one may take the illustration given by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, that of Coventry Cathedral, what could be a greater demonstration of appreciation of something exquisitely beautiful and entirely new, a conception which staggers one when seeing it for the first time, than the fact that it has brought hundreds of thousands of people to look at new materials used in a new way, with new design, new inspiration? It is something which I do not think any
1246
other country in the world has bettered in our generation.
There is another building which, together with the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, I saw quite recently. I refer to the Co-operative Insurance Building in Manchester, in which everything is contemporary. The design is contemporary, the furnishings are contemporary, the panelling is contemporary and the pictures are contemporary. The only thing I saw which might be called classical was a beautiful drawing by Augustus John, but all the rest, from top to bottom, was entirely new, and in an extraordinarily successful way. I had the pleasure of meeting the people who were working in the building, and they obviously thought it was a most exciting and interesting place in which to work. It was in every sense a splendid demonstration of good design and good workmanship, done in a practical and very effective manner. I think that there is an opportunity to do these things now, when there is so much new building going on, if people have the courage to take the contemporary and use it in the way in which I saw it used that day in Manchester.
But, as the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, has said, craftsmen and designers need patrons, and the patrons of to-day are not the same as the patrons of the past. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, has mentioned some of the patrons of to-day—the big companies, the public bodies, the education authorities, the commercial enterprises—who are developing new buildings all over the country and abroad, where some of our work can undoubtedly have a great effect. I should like to see all those bodies commission the artists, the craftsmen and the designers in work on the buildings which are being put up every day in this country at the present time. Do let us get away from the mock Gothic. I think that a Motion has been set down on our Order Paper by one of your Lordships about not building mock Gothic on to this great Parliament building. That is another subject, but let us get away from the "mock". Let us do things which are genuine and new, and which give people the opportunity of building to-day in the contemporary design and spirit. In all this we have the help of all the modern media, including, of course, advertising, the Press,

1247
the B.B.C., television and so on. All these things can help to create public taste, and I think we ought to accept this and bravely encourage everything that can bring new ideas, new design and new development.
I want to say one final word, and it refers to the consumers—that is to say, all those people who go in and buy all these new and lovely goods—and to the effect that design has on the quality and reliability of goods coming off the production lines into the hands of the consumers. We on the Consumer Council are aware of the very high percentage of complaints which derive from unnecessary faults that develop in consumer goods almost from the moment they are passed to the consumers. These may be caused by faulty design or faulty workmanship. Both these defects could be eliminated by encouraging better design and by insisting on close inspection at the factory before the goods reach the shops. Putting something right once the goods have been taken home is a most time-consuming and heart-breaking job, both for the buyer and for the manufacturer, and could be avoided before the goods reach the shops.
Recently, there was brought to my notice an item in the Press which quoted a case where the cost of a replacement for a faulty part of a refrigerator was 8s. 6d. Whether it concerned any of the industries in which the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, has an interest, I do not know; but, anyway, this refrigerator had some fault in the design of the handle. By the time it was put right, the cost to the unfortunate person who owned the refrigerator was £9, although the actual little thing that was required cost only 8s. 6d. If such faults develop in exported goods, then the harm done is far greater, and more difficult to rectify. Therefore, the design of an article must meet not only the needs of the consumer, but also the needs of production. Many complaints about consumer goods can be traced right back to the original design. I should like to see the voice of the consumer carried right back to the designer.
My Lords, I should like simply to join with other noble Lords in congratulating the Council of Industrial Design on the work which they have
1248
done and are continuing to do; to thank the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, very much for the admirable speech with which he opened this debate; and to say that, so far as my Council are concerned, we shall do everything we can to support the work of the Council of Industrial Design.
5.57 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I at the outset congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Peddie, both on the subject that he chose this afternoon and on the admirable speech which he made in opening this debate? Many of those who have spoken have had the justification of a first-hand experience in industry or, in the case of the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, the experience of being himself a designer. I have no such qualifications, though I have had perhaps an experience which is relevant to to-day's debate. I can claim a continuous enthusiasm for the cause of good design and some experience derived from my long membership of the Design and Industries Association, of which I had the honour to be President from 1957 to 1959.
It was in the early days of that institution that I first met Frank Pick and Sir Ambrose Heal, who have been mentioned, and discussed some of these great matters with them. A little over twenty years ago I addressed that Association on the subject of "Design and Mass Production ", and just over seven years ago I addressed them again on the recently opened Design Centre, with the plans for which I had been much concerned at the Board of Trade between 1951 and 1955. May I say how much I agree with all noble Lords, on both sides of the House, who have said what admirable work the Council of Industrial Design has done, and how well it has served the national interest. If I may mention one name which I think has not yet been mentioned, I would mention in addition to my friend Mr. Paul Reilly the great contribution made by the first Director of the Design Centre, Sir Gordon Russell.
My Lords, there is another body mentioned this afternoon with which I have also been connected and which has given me some experience in this matter. That body is the Royal Society of Arts. It may be known to noble Lords that

1249
the Royal Society of Arts gives every year a number of bursaries for designers who win practical competitions in many fields; and it has been my duty as a member of the Council to be chairman of one of the juries for a year or two acting with experts in judging the entries submitted. That enables me to pay a tribute to the admirable work being done by some of our schools, such as the Central School of Arts and Crafts and the Royal College of Art.
The work submitted by young pupils from these and other bodies all over the country is both promising and increasingly promising each year. It is rather pleasant, when we have awarded the bursaries, that we see the winners and they tell us how they propose to spend the money included in the bursary on improving their qualifications and their capacity to produce good design. They nearly always choose—and they are encouraged to choose—travel abroad; and they often include a visit to the Milan Triennale which has been mentioned in several speeches.
If I may, I propose to concentrate on what I believe to be the most important truths about good design. I believe that the cause can be made much more comprehensible to manufacturers, traders and customers than is often supposed. I also believe that many erroneous beliefs are still widely held. I was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, at the outset of a speech with which I almost entirely agreed, said that he fully accepted the definition of "fitness for use" or "fitness for purpose" as the very essence of good design. Fitness for purpose is, and must always be, the main criterion of whether an article is good or bad. An article of good design is a delight to the eye and a delight to the mind; it satisfies both the æsthetic sense and the reason by serving with precision and economy the purpose for which it was made. For supreme excellence something more may be needed; but without fitness for purpose no excellence is possible. There is nothing new about this; nor will it ever cease to be true.
In my final message, I think, as President, to the Design and Industries Association I ventured to give them two quotations, one from a great philosopher and one from a great designer—Plato and the great Josiah Wedgwood. The quo-
1250
tation from Plato occurs in The Republic and is this:
"May we not say generally that the excellence or beauty or rightness of any implement or living creature or action has reference to the use for which it is made or designed by nature?
"Yes.
"It follows, then, that the user must know most about the performance of the thing he uses and must report on its good or bad points to the maker. The flute-player, for example, will tell the instrument maker how well his flutes serve the player's purpose, and the other will submit to be instructed about how they should be made."
Now let me quote a short extract from a letter of Josiah Wedgwood to his partner Bentley:
"Mrs. Wedgwood has tried our new teapots, of which we send you one, and gives them her sanction, as the best and most pleasantest to the hand she has ever used. I wish Mrs. Bentley would be so good as to use this pot and favour me with her corrections that we may bring them out as perfect as may be."
My Lords, the result was the Wedgwood teapot which is still, I think, quite unbeatable and which sells, and will continue to sell, all over the world. Contrast the Wedgwood teapot produced by the method I have described with those saucepans you can still, or could recently, find in the shops, with a lip from which to pour the contents but from which it is, in fact, impossible to pour.
Honesty is absolutely fundamental to good design. If an article is dishonest, it is bad, and sooner or later will repel everyone of taste—everyone, that is to say, with a good eye and a good mind. The dishonesty of an article can take three forms, and I will give an example of each. First of all, the article may pretend to be a different article from what it is: an electric light pretends to be a wax candle; and to make it convincing the wax candle pretends to gutter. Or an electric fire imitates a coal fire and flickers—and there are some very unfortunate examples of that not very far from this Chamber. The first form of dishonesty, therefore, is that the article pretends to be a different article from what it is. The second form of dishonesty is that it pretends to be made of one material when, in fact, it is made of another. Plastics, for example, are made to imitate wood. Plastics form a very important and excellent industry; they ought to stand on their own merits.

1251
It is not a good idea to think that plastics ought to imitate anything else.
Finally, my Lords, the most extraordinary example of dishonesty—and one which I would ask noble Lords carefully to note—occurs when an article pretends to be made by one process when, in fact, it has been made by another. The best example of this that I know is silverware. Silver can be raised by the hand or it can be spun on a machine. When silver is raised from the flat by hand, the craftsman takes great trouble to remove the hammer marks and uses a planishing tool for the purpose. When the article is spun on a machine, the more fatuous manufacturer proceeds to break the smooth surface by introducing hammer marks. In other words, he gives the finished article the disadvantages of the process by which it has not been made. Can idiocy go further? I have given three types of bad design, all of which are quite common to-day; and the sooner the public awake to the simple facts the better.
My Lords, I now come to another error that I believe to be very common. The search for good design is a search for excellence. It is not a search for novelty. If you search for excellence and achieve it, your design will very often, but not invariably, be novel. But if you search for novelty, your designs are most unlikely to be excellent. I think that probably the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, will agree with these words of Mies van der Rohe:
"I do not wish to be considered an original architect, only good".
That is the right attitude of the designer. A good designer will seek to attain excellence by designing an article to serve its purpose with precision and economy. If he succeeds, the article will have style and may be beautiful. I agree with my noble friend Lord Chandos that not every article may be strikingly beautiful, but I think a man would be a person with a poor eye and poor mind who could not see beauty, for example, in the shears produced by the Wilkinson Sword Company.
Beauty and style are not added to an article otherwise complete. They are an intrinsic grace or perfection that is found in an article that precisely serves its purpose. One of the worst errors of
1252
manufacturers is to think that style is something to add to the completed article and not an essential part of the article from its inception. I have known manufacturers say to themselves, "Shall it be traditional or contemporary?" One manufacturer of rather poor furniture once remarked to me, "Contemporary style is the style of the future"—which seemed to indicate a curious process of thought, that I have always remembered. When a manufacturer asks himself that question, he is indulging in an absurd dichotomy. A good designer will always design for the age in which he lives. In that sense, all his work will be contemporary. That does not mean that tradition will never influence him. Unlike some retailers, he does not regard traditional and contemporary as alternative forms of fancy dress.
About twenty years ago, during the war, I had a friend who enriched not only the art of painting, but also industrial design—Eric Ravilious, who was lost on a flight to Iceland when serving as a war artist for the Admiralty. He was not only a good painter, as many of your Lordships may know. He visited the Potteries and watched the work proceeding in the potteries themselves. He then did his admirable designs for Wedgwood. The last time I met him, he told me how thrilled he was with his experience in a textile factory. He wanted to know how textiles were produced, before he attempted to design them. No doubt, had he lived he would have been equally distinguished in that field.
In common with most noble Lords who have spoken, I think that in many fields of production our designers and manufacturers, at their best, are as good as any in the world. If I may, I should like to repeat what I wrote about motor cars in 1959. I was giving examples of some things that seemed to me unfit for their purpose. People often talk nowadays as if everything were fit for its purpose, but that is not the case. I wrote:
"How often a new model of a motor car is advertised as 'longer and lower'. By being longer it is made more difficult to park. By being lower it is made more difficult to enter and leave, and less comfortable to sit in. 'Shorter and higher' would make a far stronger appeal to the intelligent, as some enterprising manufacturer will doubtless dis-

1253
cover. By their skill and enterprise our car manufacturers have won a great export trade. In this they have been greatly helped by the American manufacturers, whose expensive, inconvenient and hideous products have caused many potential customers to buy European cars. Our manufacturers are far more likely to retain these oversea markets by a close study of customers' convenience than by the adoption of slogans believed to represent current fashion."
I heartily agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, said about built-in obsolescence, except that I thought that he slightly underestimated the evil, because the search for built-in obsolescence is the deliberate adoption of bad design. You use all your advertising to persuade the public that it is a good design, knowing that, after they have bought it, they will discover that it is as bad as you intended it to be and will wish to buy something else a year later. Built-in obsolescence is a deliberate policy of bad design, and the sooner that is generally recognised, the better.
I have a great admiration for our motor car manufacturers at their best. For example, our largest manufacturing company have discovered a genius in design in Issigonis, and I think there is a great deal for which we should thank them. But I think that what I said in 1959 was fairly prophetic, because I see that my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport has now set up a Committee to urge the motor car manufacturers to do what I urged them to do in 1959. Before I leave motor cars, there is one other thing I would suggest. Ergonomics have been mentioned. During the war, when it was vitally important to produce planes, not only as good as possible but also as safe as possible, medical and other committees were set up at the Experimental Station at Farnborough to design the best possible cockpit for aeroplanes, so that all controls should be at the most convenient place for the man who was operating them, in order that he should be as comfortable as possible and see as much as possible. Has anything equivalent been done for the motor car? I do not think so. The motor car, which can be a lethal object on our highways, and which is generally used by various members of a family, of different heights and reaches, ought to be designed as carefully as the cockpit of an aeroplane from the point of view of safety.
1254
There is only one other industry that I should like to mention, because I think that my point concerns what the consumer can and cannot do. As another example of bad design, I wrote in 1959:
"Women are invited (or compelled by lack of alternative) to buy shoes with stiletto heels. A woman wearing such shoes does far more destruction to the floor of any aeroplane in which she travels than a wild rhinoceros which can be transported without doing any damage at all. Unless this is the intended result, the shoes are clearly of bad design."
I believe that millions of women took the same view. But did that necessarily help them? I may say that a number of housewives either allow me to consult them or give me their views voluntarily. Quite a number of them tell me that again and again they are compelled to buy something which they think thoroughly badly designed because they get so weary going round all the shops, and being unable to find what they want, that they finally buy such goods in despair. One of the things I suggest to industry is this. I do not think they have any intelligence system for recording the dissatisfied customer, who ultimately buys something in a shop, but does so unwillingly. I think that the sooner they have such a system, the better.
The only other matter I would mention in the cause of good design is this. Very few things have improved more in recent years than our capacity for printing and good lettering. I saw at the Design Centre the other day some otherwise admirable washbasins and baths, but on the taps, which were red and green or red and blue, according to whether they were hot or cold, there was the letter "H" for hot and "C" for cold, but, instead of the symbol being put on in decent lettering, some ass had thought fit to use a most revolting Gothic lettering. I wish I could persuade all English industrialists, if they are keen on good design, to watch their design throughout all the details.
I apologise if I have detained the House for too long. I thank the noble Lord who introduced this Motion—and, incidentally, I hope he will not adopt the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and refuse to withdraw it at the end of the proceedings. He has produced a very good debate.
6.22 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, this is another of our series debates. I wonder

1255
what our future list of subjects will be. They all strikingly relate back to a debate we had a short time ago. We seem to have an infinite capacity for new subjects which, one might say, fit into a design of Parliamentary discussion. I am sure my noble friend Lord Peddie is well aware of the satisfaction of the House, not only in the subject he has chosen, but for the admirable way in which he introduced the debate. I think it has been particularly interesting. Again, as one or two noble Lords have said, we have mustered the usual amount of quality and expert knowledge that never seems to fail.
I think it is difficult to single out particular speeches, although 1 feel I must refer to the speech of my noble friend Lord Llewelyn-Davies. He may not know it, but yesterday I was talking to a number of noble Lords, and we all expected a very good speech from him. He did not disappoint us. Nor did the noble Lord, Lord Conesford. I was waiting with great interest for one of his forthright, spirited, firm dissertations on taste; and what he has applied on other occasions to the English language he has applied admirably to design. But I think the noble Lord fell into his own trap. He said that the material must look what it really is, or words to that effect. I do not know what a plastic looks like. I do not know what the basic nature of a plastic should be. It may be wrong for a plastic to look like wood, but apparently it is all right for a plastic to look like linoleum.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, what I mean is that plastics give the designer an extraordinary freedom. I think he should use what he thinks the nicest surface, colour and pattern. What he should not do, it seems to me, is to imitate anything.
LORD SHACKLETON: I should have liked to pursue that point, because I think there are some interesting pitfalls in the argument of the noble Lord. But I am sure we all generally agree with him that we do not want the spurious. The use of Gothic characters in lavatories is, I suppose, a sort of form of concealment of modesty. I am not certain of this, and I should like to ask a psychologist why people should do it. It
1256
is rather like their custom, when saying something in front of the children which they think is immodest, to go into what they call French. There is something of that nature about it.
We have had a not-too-long debate, and I think the subject has been fully covered. A number of noble Lords have said what they believe industrial design to be, and have also attempted to suggest the way it fits into the grand design. Here, I think, is probably the greatest difficulty, because, on the one hand, one finds the proponents of design elevating it to the highest role of importance, while, on the other, are those who, if aware of it at all, treat it as purely an appendage. It is one of many (I hesitate to use the word "components") elements that go into a product. All of these elements go into the making of the product, and none of them is strictly comparable. You put into a product capital, labour, management, skill, engineering, salesmanship and design; but of course they are all different in their way. Certain of them have particular relationships. It is, in a way, like one of those peculiar patterns one sees on a molecule, with a lot of lines. squares and rounds drawn together, and somewhere a design comes into it. But it has a wider factor; it has a cohesive force in this particular model, and of course it is particularly important as a bridge between sales and the manufacturer.
The good designer, like the good personnel officer, simply cannot achieve anything unless the principal management understand what it is all about. It is not only the designer in industry who is frustrated, but also the labour officer; and, in certain circumstances, it may be the engineer. It means that if you have ill-informed decisions, which really means ill-informed directors and ill-informed management, you will get bad design.
This brings me to the point of management. So often when we debate matters in this House which are the subject of dispute and trouble outside, particularly in industry, we are all agreed. Even though politically we may be opposed, clearly we have broken through, so we think, at an intellectual level. The noble Viscount, Lord Chandos (I am sorry he is not here), may look rather like a

1257
picture of a tough tycoon, but he is a very civilised intellectual—he may not like being called an intellectual. No doubt the same applies to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, in his textile firm. It is necessary for management to understand design in the widest way and to realise, as somebody said, that the society which scorns excellence in plumbing, because plumbing is a humble activity, and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy, because it is an exalted activity, will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy. Neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.
This brings us back to management. We have talked a great deal about management in the past, and all we can say is that we want better management. Of course, we want better designers, too, but it is no use having better designers unless we have management, and this means management that is technically competent and, at the same time, civilised. There is general agreement, I think, that in the past our industrial design has not been as bold and as good as that of other countries. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, who spoke about the openness of mind of the British manufacturer, and used a number of similar phrases. It is, of course, a lack of openness of mind and a lack of willingness to experiment that bedevils a great deal of industry. We have said this, and agreed about this, dozens of times. It is here that the Council of Industrial Design and initiative from the Government must come in. It is the stimulus, the catalytic effect, and this is where this particular debate comes in. It is to get across these ideas to management and to the public at large, and to help in the general raising of standards and general appreciation.
There is no doubt that design in certain fields has enormously improved. I do not know what the views of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, are on this point, but I should have thought that, certainly in regard to some textile design, this country was as far ahead as any. There has been a great improvement in standard. There has been a flowering of British designers, and although we may still buy designs from abroad, none the less, I think we have every reason to be satisfied that there is improvement here. There is cer-
1258
tainly improvement in furniture. Even if visitors think they are going to find only beefeaters in this country, and are surprised to find that we can make some fine furniture and nevertheless go off to Scandinavia, at least we can improve our own living conditions. At least we can have some decent furniture in our offices.
One of the most terrible things is the awful state of many offices from a design and furniture point of view, even in enlightened firms. Sometimes they go in for a rather grand and heavy design, related in some way to the status of the individual working in the office. They do not appreciate the extreme importance that furniture, particularly office furniture, should be designed specifically for a purpose. This includes ergonomics. It is necessary for the girl at the desk to be able to put her knees under it. It is not appreciated how important this is for efficiency. However, I would say that there is a good deal of improvement, and a good deal with regard to which we can be encouraged.
Some reference has been made to the retail trade. Here again, we find the most striking differences. You may go to a supermarket with great wide windows, which may have been very well designed, and they are plastered over with the most hideous and badly designed notices about price reductions. There is no sense of feeling or beauty about the fixtures. Yet, if you go to the supermarkets of my noble friend Lord Sainsbury—and I do not particularly want to press his case—you will find a quality of design which ought to bring its reward, at least in bringing some more discerning customers in, because they will feel more at ease and more comfortable.
The problem which the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, raised with regard to selling is, of course, one which is extraordinarily difficult to solve. Personally, I think that commission is something that we want to get away from as much as we can. Certainly many of the departmental stores and many shops have now given up commission. But in the last resort, of course, we must have people selling in the shops who themselves have good taste, and who will

1259
help and encourage the discerning customer. The retailer in this matter, like the B.B.C. in relation to music, must all the time be prepared to give to the public something perhaps a little better than that to which they have hitherto been accustomed. This means that both the buyer and the seller must be bold. They must solve this problem of providing something that is good and, at the same time, saleable.
This brings us to the point which my noble friend Lord Samuel mentioned about availability. It has been suggested, I think by Mr. Paul Reilly, that availability is an additional criterion of good design. It is true that the Council of Industrial Design have frequently complained that the things which may be on display in the Design Centre are unobtainable elsewhere. There is so much of importance in regard to this that one could go on speaking about it for a long time.
I should like to make only two or three more remarks. First of all, I think it is worth noting that several noble Lords have referred to the success of particular undertakings: London Transport, British United Airways and even the L.C.C. The reason why they have had success in design is that, like I.B.M., they have treated the whole of their design as fundamental to all their activities. They have not regarded it as just a fringe activity; they have allowed it to permeate the whole life of the particular activity.
The other question which has been debated at some length is the education of the designer. I am not really competent to say very much on this, beyond the fact that there has been some pretty severe criticism. Perhaps when the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, comes to reply he might refer to the criticisms in the first Report of the Natonal Council dealing with diplomacy in art and design. There are certain paragraphs of that which suggest that the schools are starved of cash, the libraries are inadequate, there are not proper facilities, and that the payment for the staff and its employment are particularly unsatisfactory. I know that the Government will always be blamed for inadequacies, but clearly there are inadequacies, and if
1260
I had a criticism to make of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, it would be that he did not sufficiently point to the weaknesses in the present situation.
Of course, some of the other weaknesses are, first, that when these young men and women finish their training there will not be jobs for them. It needs to be recognised that at the present moment the employment prospects for designers are still nothing like as good as the output of the schools. Nor, I think, are designers, as a general rule, appreciated or paid enough. This is a point which was made, I think, by my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry. But industry—and this is not something the Government ought to do—must be a great deal bolder. They must be prepared to take chances. They may have to take on young men and young women on a five or ten year prospect in order that their creativeness will bear fruit at the end.
My Lords, the final conclusion that I should like to come to is that I believe we have not yet appreciated enough in this debate what the state of this country will be over the next thirty to forty years if the forecasts made in earlier debates in regard to automation, industrialisation and movement of population are realised; and to-day we still see—and I know the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, does his best to battle against them—too many gross breaches of taste. Anyone who wishes to see a particular monstrosity can walk into Hyde Park and, by the Serpentine, he will see a new restaurant which I can only describe as resembling "debased festival style". How can these things be built to-day? It is here that the industrial designer must come in, as should the intelligent architect, to protect us so that in the further development of the economy, which is going to be as radical and far-reaching as anything in the Industrial Revolution, we shall not find ourselves in a different type of slag heap society—and there are dangers of this unless the rôle of the industrial designer is properly appreciated.
6.42 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, if I may speak again, by leave of the House, I promise not to make another full speech, but I have been asked a number of questions and I hope the House will

1261
allow me to reply to them. First of all, I should like to echo what has been said by the last few speakers, and say what an extraordinarily stimulating debate this has been, with a great number of very interesting speeches of the highest quality. The theme running throughout the debate has been, I think, the tremendous importance of design in this country and the integral part of all design in the projects themselves. I think one or two speakers at times seemed to get away from this, trying to discuss whether efficiency and output were separate, whether one could be added to the other, and so forth; but the main theme has been that design is an integral part of the product and, for that reason, designers must be an integral part of management.
My noble friend Lord Eccles drew attention to the fact that in many ways the manufacturer has to produce what the consumer wants; and he then, very rightly I think, took this rather further back and said that one of the things that have to be done is to influence the consumer in what she should want, and he dwelt on what has been done in education and the very great influence that the young people have in decreeing taste at the present time. I think we would all agree that there has been a conscious effort to try to give our young people the opportunity of growing up in an atmosphere in which they see appropriately designed objects round about them.
I thought the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, whose speech we all enjoyed so much, did a little less than justice to the exhibition of the primary school which won the Triennale Fair Award, because it was, of course, completely equipped. It was not just the architecture but the complete equipment of the school which mattered. I think it is in the general environment that we are trying to create for our young people that we place the hope of improving taste in the future.
The noble Lord laid very great stress on education for the designers. We all realise that this is a fairly new field, and I do not think we should expect perfection in this matter in any way. I personally would agree with a great deal of what he said, although this is outside the sphere of the Board of Trade,
1262
but I said in the course of my speech that the basic requirements from the point of view of education for designers are of the greatest importance and they are, of course, extremely wide, which is one of the great difficulties. I liked what the noble Lord had to say about catching the "over-achievers" and fitting them in. The noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, is not here, but I could not help thinking that he showed his usual signs of being an "over-achiever" in the appeal that he succeeded in making for the Society of Industrial Designers.
I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Llewelyn-Davies, that the Secretary of State for Education and Science has the point about post-graduate schools very much in mind and is considering some suggestions from the Coldstream Council about them. The need for postgraduate courses to bring the holders of Diploma of Art and Design up to full professional competence is recognised. Whether it would be feasible to include courses from people of other disciplines is a matter which the Secretary of State will wish to consider further. I am sorry if I in any way gave the impression that I thought everything in the garden was perfect so far as education was concerned. In the nature of the case it could not be so at the present time. All I did was to try to convey the impression that a great deal was happening in this field and that we are watching developments with the closest attention. So many noble Lords have spoken of the need to develop the status of the professional body that I do not think there is anything I need add to that, particularly as it is not a matter within the purview of the Government. But I am quite certain that I speak for the Government when I say that we should be delighted to see developments of this character.
I should like to answer two points made by my noble friend Lord Eccles, first of all with regard to the premises of the Council of Industrial Design. As I said in the course of my speech, the increase in the Council's grant for the current year will enable them to obtain additional exhibition space. What they are going to do is to re-house in a building nearby the offices which at present are occupying part of the space in the Haymarket. In the area which is set

1263
free the Council intend to hold "thematic" exhibitions, the first of which, as I said, is expected to be one of capital goods; and the second, I would say to my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood, is expected to be one of crafts. As to the contruction of new premises, that is a matter which would certainly involve a great deal of money, as well as much careful consideration; and while I am sure this is something to which we may look in the future, I do not think I can say very much to my noble friend as to the immediate prospects.
On the second point he asked, the question of the design exhibition in the near future, I can tell my noble friend that the Council for Industrial Design did put forward his proposals for such an exhibition. We have agreed with the idea and are making an additional grant of £25,000 over and above the vote. We make that sum available towards the cost over and above the ordinary grant to the Council, and I believe that the Council are actively working on the project at the present time.
Both the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and my noble friend Lord Mancroft stressed the need for greater encouragement and improvement in the status of designers. I took note of Lord Mancroft's suggestion that the successor to Sir Duncan Oppenheim, when we come to that, should be someone concerned with the heavy industries. While not necessarily associating myself with his strictures or with the reply given by my noble friend Lord Chandos, I would stress again the importance that we attach to design in the heavy industries. The noble Lord asked what the Government can do and what lead they can give. I do not think we ought to underestimate the lead that has been given, so far as the purchasing officers of Government Departments are concerned, a lead that has been given through the Council for Industrial Design. As he is well aware, the Council of Industrial Design are seeking to raise the standards by having courses for purchasing officers in Government Departments.
Incidentally, I agree very much with what he said about the hospitals. I know that my right honourable friend
1264
the Minister of Health considered that far too many designs of different characters are used in the hospitals, which means that purchasing is not as economic as it might be, quite apart from the fact that there is room for improvement in the design of what is purchased. That is one of the objects of the courses which the Council of Industrial Design are running. Of course the Board of Trade are by no means the only Department involved; this covers a very much wider field.
He asked whether we were consulted, and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, also asked what sort of control was exercised over goods designed for exhibition overseas. Where they are "thematic" exhibitions, control is of course exercised, although generally speaking the control is exercised by the Central Office of Information, which is the Government agent for exhibitions overseas, its chosen instrument. The Central Office of Information is used for the setting up of Government pavilions and the like in other forms of exhibition, whether they be trade fairs or anything else. At trade fairs, where the purpose of course is to sell, the choice as to what is to be displayed on industry's own stands, the space that industry itself takes, must quite obviously lie with industry. The Council of Industrial Design collection at Dusseldorf, for example, and the other places where displays are made are, I can assure noble Lords, strictly controlled, and the Council of Industrial Design normally confine the choice of products shown overseas to those goods on the Design Index at the Design Centre. There was another small exhibit there which showed a British interior at Dusseldorf, and that was organised by the Ideal Home Exhibition which presumably insisted on a high degree of control as well. As I say, while this applies to exhibitions, trade fairs are quite different.
And then, of course, when we come to British Weeks one tries to get focal points with the Council of Industrial Design exhibit, so that the new may be shown, though one expects to have a great deal of the traditional shown at the same time. It is a fact that, so far as the displays arranged by the shops in Dusseldorf were concerned, they

1265
themselves used the old attractions, if I may call them so—the Beefeaters, Guardsmen, pipers and all the rest of it. Sometimes I am told that the bodies had to be carried off in order to be cleaned up—that is to say, the bodies of Guardsmen and the like on duty at various points. It was not unimpressive, and the fact seems to be that it was successful and something one ought not to neglect. According to what I was told (and I did visit the British Week in its last days), the various displays that were run by the big departmental stores undoubtedly had drawn in the public in considerable numbers to the displays of British goods that were being sold inside. And, of course, one object of these British Weeks, one of the reasons why the Council of Industrial Design go and show what might be termed the forward-looking design, is to encourage the firms who are holding British goods, selling British goods and having displays of British goods, to stock and sell the new as well as the old. This, I think, is an important function they perform.
I do not want to detain the House any further. Perhaps I ought just to reply very shortly to what my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood said. I think perhaps she rather underrated as I understand it, the figure that was put in by the Council of Industrial Design for their proposal in regard to the display of craft goods. However that may be, we were not able, as I said, to accommodate it in the extra vote; we were not able to provide for that as well as the increased activities I mentioned in the course of my speech. But this does not mean that we do not appreciate the importance of the crafts. We do recognise they play a part in the life of the community as well as in the education of industrial designers. I am very glad to hear that one of the earliest shows in the new exhibition area will be a special exhibition of craft work. In the meantime, not only is the Craft Centre continuing under the new Director, at Hay Hill, but a new Crafts Council of Great Britain has been formed. I think I should make it clear that, from the Board of Trade point of view, our primary concern with any proposal for public expenditure in this sphere must be the contribution which it would make to the improvement of design in indus-
1266
try generally. However, we shall watch all these developments and we shall always be willing to review the position in the light of experience gained.
I hope that I have covered most of the points made. A great deal of things have been said in this debate which seem to be memorable, not least the speech of my noble friend Lord Conesford. What I think is so significant was the very great degree of agreement that has been achieved throughout this debate. I understand that the noble Lord would like to have this Motion carried. I am quite prepared to fall in with his wishes in that. I only hope that he will make it abundantly clear that in carrying the Motion this implies no criticism whatsoever of the Council of Industrial Design, who have done a magnificent job. I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, say that, while certainly there is a long way to go, there are signs of improvement and that we are going forward in this. On that rather happy spirit of unanimity—and I agree that this debate fits in very well with the debates that we have had in the past—the whole feeling has been that we have to modernise, we have to improve our managements, we have to take advantage of all developments taking place; and it is up to all of us, in the Government and elsewhere, to carry this forward so far as possible and to the utmost of our ability.
7.0 p.m.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I would thank the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for his reply to this debate. It would be churlish on my part to attempt at this late stage to underline many of the comments that have already been made. I merely take this opportunity of expressing my thanks to all who have taken part in the debate and who out of their experience have made a great contribution. I am sure the words that have been uttered during the debate will provide an inspiration and an incentive to those who are responsible for the development of industrial design.
At this stage it is the normal practice to ask for leave to withdraw the Motion; but in view of the words that I have just heard expressed by the noble Lord opposite, and as an indication of the unanimity of the House, I would ask

1267
for the Motion to stand. I would, of course, give a complete assurance that in this there is no criticism whatsoever of the Council of Industrial Design; on the contrary, I think my own speech, and every speech during the debate, has expressed compliments towards, and has been an indication of, the valuable work of, the Council of Industrial Design in the past, and has expressed the hope that they will have the power and the means even to improve upon the great work that they have done and are doing. I therefore ask your Lordships to agree to the Motion.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE BURIAL GROUND BILL
7.3 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I address your Lordships from this, for me, unusual geographical situation so that, should I require legal assistance, I shall be rather nearer its source than I would be in my usual place. The Church of England is engaged in a process of rethinking and in the redeployment of its resources to meet the great new needs which are looming up in front of us. The great new housing areas which are springing up need new churches, new halts, parsonages and so on. We have to improve the meagre stipends of our clergy, and we have to compete with inflation all the time in the question of general expenses. A great campaign is on foot to educate the laity as to their responsibility in these matters.
Any person who is engaged in the operation of raising funds immediately meets the question: what are you doing with your existing unused resources, your redundant churches and unused lands, and so on? It is a question not always easy to answer. When one wants to close a church, as the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of London well knows, immediately a faithful congregation appear, often from many miles away, and claim that their very existence depends on the continuance of this church. If that hurdle is surmounted and it is proposed to demolish the building,
1268
one then comes upon the fact that, however hideous to the lay mind the building may be, it is almost certainly the sole example of the work of some eminent Victorian architect north of the Trent, south of the Trent, north of the Thames or south of the Thames. So the hurdles are numerous, though we are trying to surmount them.
In this Bill, to put to work, so to speak, this disused burial around, we have immediately run against some opposition from the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, who is in tradition in this respect. This Bill deals with a curious place. About 300 yards from Marble Arch, on the north side of the Bayswater Road, there is an iron railing and a little patch of grass, behind which there is a bombed chapel and a one-storey dwelling. Through a rusty gate, secured with a padlock by the caretaker, there are five acres of comparatively derelict land which was acquired as a burial ground by St. George Hanover Square in 1762, and was continued in use until 1854. Its existing use is some three tennis courts, a bow and arrow range, one or two patches of the rather spindley vegetables which are sometimes grown in London soil, a certain amount of ground where the grass has been cut, some fine bramble bushes and quite a decent crop of hay.
The tennis courts were built by tenants whose tenancy, I understand, has now expired, and the Royal Toxophilite Society uses the bow and arrow range, which is a piece of mown grass at the north end of the ground. Knowing nothing about bows and arrows, I would describe this as a miniature bow and arrow range, for I was brought up in the traditions of Samkin Aylward and The White Company and I understand that the long bow shoots to 200 and 300 yards. There is no space for operations of that sort in this ground. In fact, an unsteady hand leading to a few degrees of super-elevation will put the shaft slap through the windows of the surrounding houses. The whole field is surrounded by mews dwellings and flats representing the high-class residential area of that part of London, and there is no public access to this ground.
By this Bill the rector and churchwardens of St. George Hanover Square seek relief from the prohibition upon

1269
building which exists in the Disused Burial Grounds Act, 1884, In May, 1963, the churchwardens and the rector asked for outline planning permission for 3·6 acres residential at 200 persons to the acre, which is the same density as the surrounding residential area's, and one acre for educational purposes, as it was thought that there might before long be a need for a school in that area. A public inquiry was held in October last year and the London County Council supported the application, whereas they had opposed previous applications made in years before. Their change of mind, they said, was due to a new appreciation of the desperate housing needs of London and the fact that a school might become necessary in that area.
The Paddington Borough Council also supported the application, but it was opposed by the St. George Burial Ground Protection Association, consisting, presumably, largely of the residents overlooking the area. Their opposition was on amenity grounds, in that 120 dwellings overlook this area, and they had reason to believe when they took up residence there that it would be an open space, of sorts, for ever. Moreover, they claimed that it was against the County Development Plan and said that Hyde Park, which is a stone's throw, or a short arrow shot, across the way, was no solution since people could not cross the road because of the traffic.
The Minister's inspector supported the case of the applicants, and the Minister gave his concurrence with his inspector in February, 1964. I will read the relevant paragraphs:
"The Minister agrees with the Inspector's conclusions. He is satisfied that the loss of this open space would not be so harmful to the amenities of the locality as to justify refusing permission for the proposed development, particularly in view of the proximity of Hyde Park and of the urgent need for additional housing accommodation of all kinds in London. The Minister notes the Inspector's views on density and layout, and that the Royal Fine Art Commission have expressed a wish to see a model. These are matters which will have to be settled at a later stage and the Minister expresses no views on them now. He considers that in view of the redevelopment proposed in this locality it is sensible to reserve part of the site now for school purposes. If however by the time the detailed layout is available it is clear that no school site is required, he would see no objection to the whole area being used for residential purposes.
1270
"Accordingly the Minister accepts the Inspector's recommendation and for that reason he hereby grants planning permission for the development of St. George's Burial Ground, Bayswater Road, Paddington for residential purposes and for a primary school subject to the condition that the density of the development, the siting, design and external appearance of the buildings, the landscaping of the site, provision of garages and car parking space, the siting and design of the means of access from the site to the highway and the position of that part of the land to be reserved for the primary school, shall be as may be agreed by the local planning authority or, in default of agreement, as shall be determined by the Minister."
Meanwhile, the Bill was in progress, and in another place Clause 5 was inserted, by agreement with the Residents' Association, requiring consultation by the owners of the site with the Residents' Association over siting and design of any building to be erected. If this Bill is passed, subject to any Amendments which may be made by the Unopposed Bills Committee of this House, the rector and churchwardens or potential buyers will be able to apply for detailed planning permission, which will have to pass the local authority, presumably the new London Council, and also the new borough, and the land will then acquire a sale value. The value, of course, will depend on the type of development which the authorities are prepared to allow.
If it gets to the stage of sale, the proceeds will be split four ways: two quarters to the London Diocese (and I hope that the right reverend Prelate will say how he intends to spend that): one quarter to the present Parish of St. George's (which, incidentally, has no endowment at the moment) and one quarter to the old Parish of St. George's, which comprises a much larger area and means that there are nine daughter churches comprised in the old parish.
My Lords, the clauses do not call for much comment, because they are self-explanatory. Clause 5 is a consultation clause Clause 6 regulates the distribution of any sale value and Clause 7 deals with the removal of human remains from any part of the site which has to be disturbed in any building operations. I may add that the tombstones have long ago been removed and placed around the edge of the ground, and for the most part they are indecipherable. But there is provision for relatives to claim them if they are

1271
able to identify them, and wish to do so. I claim that in putting forward this Bill the rector and churchwardens are implementing the new policy of the Church, which is to re-deploy its resources to meet the needs of the present age. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hawke.)
7.15 p.m.
LORD AMULREE LORD AMULREE rose to move, as an Amendment to the Motion "That the Bill be now read 2a", to leave out ("now") and to insert at the end of the Motion ("this day six months"). The noble Lord said: My Lords, when I put down an Amendment to postpone the Second Reading of this Bill to a day six months hence, it was done with one purpose in view, and one purpose only. The purpose was that I felt that in the year 1964 it was not proper that a large open space in the middle of London should be declared ripe for development without the possibility of full discussion of such a project by both Houses of Parliament. That was what was at the back of my mind when I put down my Amendment. But there are one or two more things that I should like to say in support of my contention.
The first is that quite obviously, in 1884, when it passed the Act dealing with disused burial grounds, Parliament did not necessarily envisage them as being developed. So far as I can see, it envisaged that they would be kept as open space. So when it is felt desirable to build or develop a burial ground, it must be done by a Private Act of Parliament.
There is another piece of history that I should like to recall to your Lordships. That is the question of what has become of the London Squares, because it was in 1926 or 1927 when building, took place in the Square at Mornington Crescent and on an open space in Endsleigh Gardens. They were both sold by their proprietors for development, and building was carried out. That immediately caused a good deal of talk, and a good deal of alarm as to what might become of the remaining Squares in London. As a result, two Private Bills were introduced in another place, and in 1927 a Royal Commission was established, which re-
1272
ported about a year later. In 1931 Parliament passed an Act called the London Squares Preservation Act, which listed 419 Squares in London. What the Act said, briefly, was that the Squares were to be used for gardens, or for people to play or rest there, or for recreation purposes, and that no building should be carried out which was not needed for those particular uses. That was done for the Squares in 1931. Surely, my Lords, the same reasoning applies to a great deal of an open space of five acres right in the middle of London in 1964.
I do not want to go into the details of what it is proposed should be done to the burial ground, because the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has already explained what is going to happen to it. Nor do I want to say that I think that the way it is proposed to apply the money is something to which one can possibly take objection. It is a perfectly proper way to apply the money which would result from the development of this site, if it were to be developed. It is its development in too big a way that I trust we may find some means of stopping. Some people say that one does not require an open space in that part of London, because it is quite well planned itself, with quite a number of Squares nearby, as well as Hyde Park, just across the road. But the same thing might have been said at the time when the London County Council, I think it was, bought the land of Kenwood to join on to Hampstead Heath. Hampstead Heath was perfectly good, and if they could have built upon the Kenwood Estate it would have solved a great deal of the housing problems in that part of the town. But the L.C.C. did not do so, and that land was purchased and made into a permanent open space.
There is another point about Hyde Park which one must mention, and that is that pieces of the Park are continually being taken away for one purpose or another. One has seen a large amount removed to make a new carriageway, as well as at the parts near Marble Arch and at Hyde Park Corner. I am not saying for a moment that that should not have been done; I am not saying for a moment that it has not caused a considerable improvement in the flow of the traffic. But it means that a certain proportion of Hyde Park has

1273
been taken away from the people who are supposed to enjoy it. The same thing applies when new restaurants with car parking facilities are built, when another piece of the Park is taken away. Another piece of the Park has been set aside for people who want to play special games; not merely to enjoy themselves in the fresh air. There is a place to play bowls, a place for putting, and there are quite a number of football pitches on the south side of the Park. The provision of all these facilities takes away some pieces of the Park from the general public and makes them available for specialised interests. One can see that if that were to go on further there would be nothing of the Park left at all.
I was wondering whether it would not be possible—I admit that the money has got to come from somewhere, but the Government took away some of the Park to build roads and a certain amount has been taken away for other purposes, too—for the burial ground to be used as a permanent open space for playing games, for example, so that people who wished to play games could play them there and not in the general part of Hyde Park. In addition, as the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, said, the burial ground is not very suitable for building on, because it has a very poor access from the Bayswater Road and practically no other access at ail. So it could not be a convenient site to build on, unless some of the properties around it were pulled down to make another road or two coming into it, and if you are going to pull down some houses in order to build more it does not seem to me that you have progressed very far.
Finally, my Lords, there is another point about London which I think we must bear in mind, and that is that not so very long ago London was a town with a large number of gardens, a large number of open spaces tucked away in all sorts of curious ways. If one went into some of the more expensive streets the houses there had quite big gardens. When they are sold now and pulled down, blocks of flats are put up and the garden is obliterated in so doing. In the slum areas, like some of the parts of St. Pancras which I know, the buildings were deplorable and certainly needed to be pulled down, but they all had their
1274
little garden at the back dating from the time when they were family houses. That garden contained a tree and a shrub and a few flowers of some sort or other, which meant that an agreeable fresh-air atmosphere could be found there; whereas now, when they have been rebuilt with modern blocks of flats, they have become a concrete jungle or a concrete desert, call it what you will.
The idea of the town being a place full of greenery is gradually going away. That is why I wanted to bring this point about the burial ground of Saint George, Hanover Square before your Lordships. I do not do so because I do not sympathise with what the Church wants to do with the land, but I think that your Lordships should certainly be informed about a big project like this. If possible, one should try to sec whether something can be done to preserve this ground and, at the same time, see that the Church is not ruined by being compelled to support a piece of land from which it does not get any revenue at all. That is why I put this Amendment down, and I shall be very interested to hear what other noble Lords have to say OD the matter. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now ") and insert at the end of the Motion ("this day six months").—(Lord Amulree.)
7.27 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, we have all of us, I am sure, great sympathy with the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, to preserve as much open space as possible, and we should all like to see gardens wherever possible. I would have more sympathy with this particular proposition of his if the burial ground in question were in the middle of Camden Town, or some other places which perhaps I had better not specify. I thought, if I may say so, that the noble Lord showed considerable ingenuity in answering the fact of its proximity to Hyde Park. I think this proximity makes a difference, and a very considerable difference.
The real point, I suppose, since the Church cannot be expected to have assets which are of potential value and not be able to use them, is whether the use

1275
proposed in this Bill is the only possible use. I should have thought that this question was really thoroughly discussed in the public inquiry, and that the Minister in giving his decision took into account all the possible uses and had on balance come to the conclusion that an opportunity for providing more housing outweighed the other considerations; and I myself would feel that that decision was right. I cannot, of course, disclaim that the thought that the sum of money which this site might fetch if it were allowed to be sold might be of advantage to the Church has some influence upon my thinking.
As regards the question which the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, left unanswered, as to what the diocese of London would do with the share which the Bill would allocate to it, the answer, I think, is quite clear. It would be used for the provision of new churches and church buildings in areas where they are needed, in the areas to which people have been moved or have moved themselves, where the provision of new churches constitutes a very considerable strain upon the diocese. This is not least because it has already undertaken a very heavy financial burden in the restoration of a number of historic churches in the City, the East End of London and elsewhere, which has strained our resources to the uttermost and undoubtedly delayed the building of new churches in the suburbs. But that is another issue which I should not wish to press because it might only confuse the main issue.
I would not myself support this Bill if I did not believe that the provision of houses on this site is reasonable and proper, and that, therefore, the use to be made of it, which can benefit the Church and at the same time be of value to the community, is a right and proper use. I therefore venture to hope that your Lordships will not accept the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree.
7.31 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, the House and the country, I think, should be indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, for putting down his Amendment. I do not accept the view which has been put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, and by the
1276
right reverend Prelate that the question at issue is whether the Church should be allowed to develop assets which it has got. In the first place, this is not at the present moment an asset of very great value. The purpose of this Bill is to turn it into an asset of very great value; but at the present moment this disused burial ground is subject to a restriction which was imposed upon burial grounds generally by Parliament in the Act of 1884, when Parliament decided that it was not desirable that disused burial grounds should become unrestricted and should be available for development generally. The policy of Parliament quite clearly was that they should remain as open spaces, and that has been re-emphasised by subsequent legislation.
For example, in 1906 an Act was passed by Parliament for the purpose of empowering local authorities to purchase disused burial grounds and to turn them into public open spaces; and I think it was in 1935 (but I speak from memory) that an Act of Parliament was passed relating to London specifically which gave to local authorities in London compulsory powers to purchase disused burial grounds.
Therefore the question which is at issue this afternoon is whether a Private Act of Parliament should be passed for the purpose of altering the general policy which Parliament has laid down with regard to these matters, and, so far as that is concerned, it is entirely irrelevant whether this proposal will add to the financial resources of the Church of England or not. Indeed, that is an argument which should not be allowed to influence the minds of anybody, because the Church of England has been in the position ever since 1884 of holding an asset which could not be used for building purposes and which, in that case, did not have a building value. The sole object of this Bill is to free this piece of land from that restriction which has been imposed generally upon disused burial grounds, and if that is going to be done in this case there is no reason, apparently, why Private Bill after Private Bill should not be brought forward for the purpose of doing precisely the same thing and altering completely the policy which has been approved by Parliament. If that is going to be done, there is only one suitable and proper way of doing it, and

1277
that is by a Public Bill amending or repealing the Act of 1884 and freeing disused burial grounds from the restrictions which have been imposed on them by Statute.
It is quite irrelevant to discuss whether there is a need for more or fewer open spaces in London generally, or in this particular locality. So far as that is concerned, I would sympathise very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, has said. It may be adjacent to Hyde Park; but quite a lot of Hyde Park has been taken away from its primary purpose of public open space and public recreation, and there should be no nibbling away of rights with regard to these things. If it is done in the case of disused burial grounds, as the noble Lord has said, it may just as well be done with regard to the London Squares, which were the subject of a special Act of Parliament passed some thirty or more years ago. I beg the House to accept the Amendment which the noble Lord has moved, and not to allow the principle which has been established by Parliament to be whittled away in this fashion.
7.37 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS): My Lords, although my name is not on the list of speakers, perhaps it behoves me to say something, as my right honourable friend the Minister has had a hand in this matter and as it is really as a result of a public inquiry which he ordered to be held that this discussion arises. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, has very properly brought this matter before Parliament. He is, of course, perfectly within his rights, and I think it is a good thing that a matter of this importance should be aired. At the same time, I should like to assure him and other noble Lords that there has been no intention on the part of my right honourable friend to sidestep Parliament in this matter—and, in fact, as I shall show in a moment, he has not done so.
We have heard very clearly from my noble friend Lord Hawke how this matter arose, but it was precisely because the outline planning permission applied for to the London County Council by the Church Commissioners and
1278
the Trustees of St. George Hanover Square created so much local interest and opposition that the Minister decided that the application should be the subject of a public inquiry. In fact, he called it in, exercising his power under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, requiring that it should be referred to him for his decision. We have heard the results of the inquiry, and the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has read out the Minister's decision on that inquiry, so I need not go into that. The reasons why he agreed with the inspector that this disused burial ground should be available for residential and school building, if necessary, were set out clearly. But, in doing so, he was of course merely expressing his opinion within his own powers, and I would draw attention to Clause 8 of the Bill, which is a saving for the Town and Country Planning Acts; and, even if the Bill is given a Second Reading and Passed by the Committee upstairs without alteration, the Church Commissioners and Trustees would still be subject to the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Acts. That is why they applied in the first place for a hearing of their proposals for development.
But having decided that residential and school development should be allowed, subject to all the various conditions about density, design and layout that have been mentioned, my right honourable friend has not at all prejudiced the position that should be taken in either House of Parliament. The Bill must come before a Committee. It was opposed in the other place, but since then an Amendment has been made, and I understand that the Residents' Association were satisfied with the insertion of a clause giving them the right of consultation and that they have not opposed the Bill as it comes to your Lordships' House. But there are, of course, two different issues. My right honourable friend was specifically deciding, as he was asked to decide, whether, the restrictions of the Disused Burial Grounds Act having been raised in this Committee, the land should be allowed to be built on. His decision, on that request was "Yes, it should be," for the sound reasons which have been given. On the other hand, Parliament and the Committee upstairs, if the Bill gets there,

1279
are asked to decide whether any form of development at all should take place on this ground—because nothing can happen to this disused burial ground unless this House and this Committee recommend that it should be allowed.
That brings me to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, that this is, or should be, a matter of general legislation. As noble Lords will remember, my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross reminded us only in the debate last week that he was anxious to introduce a Bill for the reform of the Burial and Cremation Acts which are in a very confused state, dating back for 80 years, and even more. I had promised him that if he withdrew his Bill a Bill would be produced after full discussion with the interests he represents and others. That is going ahead: in fact we are now in a position to complete those consultations and a Bill can shortly be drafted which will revise and reform the whole of the Burial and Cremation Acts. And of course this necessity for continuing something laid down in 1884 is one of the points which will be looked at.
After all, there have been a great many developments since then, and perhaps we ought to revise our opinion on these matters. Hitherto, a Private Bill always has to be introduced if any exception is to be made to the restrictions; but I would direct attention to the fact that local authorities can themselves get over that difficulty, because under Part V of the 1962 Act they can acquire land; and if they can acquire land themselves they can, under another section (Section 82, I think) of the Town and Country Planning Act overrule these restrictions even in respect of disused burial grounds. But it cannot be done by private owners—only by the public authorities. So there is a way round at the moment; but it is quite right, as the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, said, that private owners must always introduce a Private Bill.
So there are these two considerations: first, my right honourable friend had to decide whether development might be permitted if, and only if, this Bill succeeded in getting through Parliament; and, secondly, it is for Parliament to decide whether the general restrictions of
1280
the Disused Burial Grounds Act, 1884 should be withdrawn in this case. In the Bill there is no mention of building development at all: it is intended simply to withdraw the restrictions to allow the owners to use this disused burial ground for some other purpose unspecified in the Bill. But, as we know, in this particular case they are to be allowed to build upon it. But that is not actually what the House has been asked to decide. That really falls within the responsibility of my right honourable friend; and he has fulfilled that responsibility thoroughly by calling in the application for planning permission for his own personal decision. But Parliament is being asked to decide whether in this case the restrictions should be withdrawn.
Noble Lords have had a discussion on this matter, and I am sure that it has been very useful and helpful. While I do not want to interfere unduly in this private matter I would just say that it is not an opposed Bill, and therefore I hope, in all the circumstances, that your Lordships will agree to give it a Second Reading to-day and allow the Committee upstairs to consider these matters and to make a report upon them.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, will the noble Lord say what he thinks the Committee could do if the Bill were referred to them?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, this is an unopposed Bill. It will therefore be committed to the Unopposed Bills Committee, unless I decide that it ought to go to a Select Committee upstairs—and I am not saying whether I would or would not so decide. At the present moment I do not see any reason so to decide; but I have the power to send it upstairs if a good cause is shown. Otherwise the Bill goes to an Unopposed Bills Committee.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, what I asked was not which Committee it would go to, but what the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, thought the Committee could do with it.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, would it be possible for the Unopposed Bills Committee to find a Preamble not proved, as it is possible for the Opposed Bills Committee so to do, which would

1281
virtually mean the rejection of the Bill? Is that possible in the circumstances?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, if I may answer for the second time, I suppose that the highly technical answer is Yes, it would be possible. I say that because the Preamble must be proved and, of course, from that I would understand that it is conceivable that it could not be proved; otherwise one would not insist on its being proved. But I have never heard of such a case. I have never heard of a Preamble not being proved before an Unopposed Bills Committee. If one went
1282
back into history, then I suppose one might find an example, but I have never heard of one.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I think my noble friend Lord Hastings has really answered the case against the Bill, so I do not propose to make any further remarks.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Bill read 2a, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
House adjourned at ten minutes before eight o'clock.