Sitting of 16 June 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SAINT PAUL, PORTMAN SQUARE, ST. MARYLEBONE BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL
  Question proposed, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered.
  Mr. P. Williams: On a point of order. I cannot find any reference to these Bills on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker. Is this an error of omission or just a plain mistake?
  Mr. Speaker: Bills appear on a separate sheet of the Order Paper. The matter of separateness is, I am afraid, due to a mistake. It is a kind of annexe to the Order Paper which is part of the Order Paper.
  Mr. Williams: In that case, Mr. Speaker, is the matter in order if the Bills have not appeared on the Order Paper?
  Mr. Speaker: I believe it to be in order, the validity of the Order Paper not being dependent on it being attached to the rest of the Order Paper.
  Mr. Bottomley: Is it not possible, Mr. Speaker, for the House to be informed before the sitting begins by some means, or even at the sitting by yourself?
  Mr. Speaker: About that I would have to inquire. I did not know that I was going to be the sole possessor of this portion of the Order Paper. If hon. Members will hear the titles of the Bills we will then consider them. I do not
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  think that there will be any difficulty arising about this because the Bills will already have been brought to the notice of the House at another stage. With regard to the London County Council (Money) Bill, the Question is, "That the Bill be now considered".
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill, as amended, considered accordingly; to be read the Third time.

  WORCESTER CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third lime.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOUTHERN RHODESIA

    Mr. Joshua Nkomo
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what reply he has now sent to the formal request from the Government of India that Her Majesty's Government should intervene to secure the release of Mr. Joshua Nkomo in Southern Rhodesia.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and for the Colonies (Mr. Duncan Sandys): Since the British Government are not responsible for the internal affairs of Southern Rhodesia, we have suggested to the Government of India that they might consider approaching the Southern Rhodesia Government direct through the Indian Commissioner in Salisbury.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Does not the Secretary of State agree that this country still has ultimate responsibility for the position in this Territory and that the influence that we can wield is greater, therefore, than that which can be exercised by India? Cannot he say what he is going to do to secure the release of Mr. Nkomo? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there can be no real peace in this Territory until Mr. Nkomo and other political leaders now in gaol are allowed to return to political life?
    Mr. Sandys: That raises a much wider question. The Question on the Order Paper, to which I have given a reply, related to a communication from the Indian Government.
    Mr. Fell: As we are not responsible for the internal affairs of Southern Rhodesia, may we have an explicit promise that none of the affairs of Southern Rhodesia will be discussed by the Prime Ministers at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference unless in front of the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Sandys: I think that that supplementary question is as far removed from the Question on the Order Paper as the last supplementary question.
    Mr. Bottomley: Bearing in mind that it is reported that 1,000 settlers are leaving Southern Rhodesia a week—there are now 200,000—and that there are 4 million Africans for whom we have responsibility, could not the Government join with the Government of India in making representations?
    Mr. Sandys: As I have explained, we have no responsibility for the internal affair of Southern Rhodesia. I think that the House understands the position quite well.
    Mr. Goodhew: Will my right hon. Friend remind the Indian Government that the trouble here is that Mr. Nkomo has refused to take the opportunities open to him to fight constitutionally and that that is why he is under detention?
    Miss Lee: If the Minister agrees that he is giving good advice to the Indian Government in asking them to make direct representations to Southern Rhodesia, would he act on that good advice, and can he assure us that he will make direct representations to the Government of Southern Rhodesia? Can he also assure us that the British Government will take up the same enlightened attitude as the Indian Government?
    Mr. Sandys: I think the House knows well that we are very anxious to see a peaceful and honourable settlement of the political problem in Southern Rhodesia, and we have made it quite clear that we are prepared to do anything we can to achieve that.
    Mr. Longden: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since we have no responsibility for the internal affairs of Southern Rhodesia, how is it that Questions such as this are allowed on the Order Paper?
    Mr. Speaker: The Question relates to a formal communication from the Government of India, and for that reason the Question became in order.

  BECHUANALAND

    Hereros
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what arrangements have been made for 154 Hereros who have crossed into Bechuanaland from Southwest Africa; and if the status of refugees will be accorded to them.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Nigel Fisher): They have been issued with temporary residence permits for 6 months. Their residence is restricted to a radius of 12 miles from Makunda. They have not claimed refugee status.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that three of these individuals are prohibited immigrants and, as such, come within the terms of political refugees; and that another 147 of them, if not political refugees, have been driven from South-West Africa because the land has been appropriated, under the Bantustan system, to Europeans? That being so, will something be done for them? They cannot gain a livelihood within 12 miles of Makunda and, if driven back to South-West Africa, they are liable to a sentence of three years' imprisonment, with six strokes of the cane each. Will the Government do something to save them from that?
    Mr. Fisher: The maximum penalty for leaving the Republic or South-West Africa is, in fact, two years' imprisonment. Nine of the immigrants have returned of their own accord, and no report has been received of any punitive action taken against them at all. I therefore do not think that these people are in danger, but if they establish that they are political refugees, naturally, they will not be returned to South Africa.

  SWAZILAND

    Sir Brian Marwick (Speech)
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies whether he authorised the speech made by Sir Brian Marwick at the end of April on the situation in Swaziland.
    Mr. Fisher: No, Sir.
    Mr. Wall: Would my hon. Friend agree that it is wrong for the Queen's Commissioner publicly to criticise the Swazi Ruler? Is he aware that the new Constitution, which was overwhelmingly rejected in the referendum, is the sole reason why the Ngwenyama has had to descend into the political arena?
    Mr. Fisher: This did not purport to be a statement of British policy. Sir Brian Marwick made it quite clear that it contained only his personal reflections at the end of a lifetime of Government service, most of which had been spent in Swaziland.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that there will be widespread support, as I think, on both sides of the House for the views expressed by Sir Brian Marwick on the possibility of constitutional development in Swaziland?

    Police Force
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies how many officers and men there are in the Swaziland police force; and how many of them were born, educated, or formerly resided, respectively, in South Africa.
    Mr. Fisher: The answer to the first part of the question is 438, and to the second, 62.
    Mr. Swingler: Is it made crystal clear to all members of the Swaziland police force that they owe allegiance to a Government who oppose apartheid, and that it is no part of their task to collaborate in applying the laws of apartheid which, unfortunately, temporarily prevails in the surrounding country?
    Mr. Fisher: I do not know whether the hon. Member is suggesting that the loyalty of these officers and men is in question
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    but, if so, I must say that I am entirely satisfied that there is no foundation for that statement at all.

  MALTA

    Discussions
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies if he will now make a statement on constitutional developments in Malta.
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies (1) if he has considered the request of the Leader of the Opposition in Malta for further consultations with the representatives of the political parties in the Island on the question of independence, in view of the inconclusive electoral decision;
    (2) if he discussed with the Prime Minister of Malta at their recent interview the questions of defence and a financial agreement; and if he will now make a statement.
    Sir W. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies in view of the fact that the defence factor in the future of Malta is necessarily unpredictable over a period of years, to what extent the British Government is prepared to help Malta to change her economic structure to one based on competitiveness in world markets and to implement the recommendations of the Report of the United Nations Economic Team under Professor Stolper which they have had in their possession since April, 1963, and which is the basis of Malta's second five year plan begun in April, 1964.
    Mr. Sandys: I have promised to make a general statement about Malta as soon as the present talks are concluded.
    Mr. Wall: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is possible to reach a conclusion on Malta's Constitution until we know what long-term financial help Malta will receive from this country? Is it really fair to ask the Prime Minister of Malta ever here and keep him here for several weeks when, apparently, the Treasury has not made up its mind on this matter?
    Mr. Sandys: I do not think that is a correct representation of the position. I suggested to the Prime Minister that he should return to Malta about a fortnight ago while further discussions were proceeding between officials, but he thought it desirable that he should stay here. The question of finance is being discussed, but it is only one of the matters that are under discussion.
    Mr. Bottomley: As the constitutional conference arises from the recent visit of observers of the referendum to Malta, can the Secretary of State say when the observers' reports will be published?
    Mr. Sandys: I shall inform the House of the views expressed by the observers when I make my general statement.

  SOUTH ARABIAN FEDERATION

    Constitution (Talks)
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what steps he is now taking to associate the political leaders in Aden Colony with the constitutional discussions on the South Arabian Federation.
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies if he will make a statement on the constitutional conference on the Federation of Southern Arabia.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies if he will make a statement on the conference on constitutional advance in the South Arabian Federation.
    Mr. Sandys: The talks started on 9th June, and are still proceeding. With regard to representation at the conference, I have already explained the position fully to the House.
    Mr. Bottomley: Will the Secretary of State reconsider the question of consulting the representatives of the political parties from Aden? Further, as those representatives are not being consulted in any way, can an assurance be given that no elections will be held in Aden by the Federation except with the consent of this Government?
    Mr. Sandys: The Federation does not hold elections in Aden. With regard to the position of the other parties, the P.S.P. has stated recently that the British Government are well aware of its views already. That is perfectly correct. I had a long meeting with members of the P.S.P. when I was in Aden. I think that I can say to the House that most of the views held by the different political parties in Aden are represented in one way or the other at the conference—I do not say fully, but to a large extent. In so far as their views are not being advocated there, we are fully aware of them, and will, of course, take them into account.
    Mr. Bottomley: Can the Secretary of State say that the Federation itself will not be given power to hold up elections, but that if the people of Aden want elections, elections can be held?
    Mr. Sandys: It is not a matter for the Federation to decide when elections are to be held in Aden.
    Mr. Thomson: Is it not utterly unrealistic to go ahead with a conference of this sort without any really representative element from the Aden Colony? Whilst the views of the P.S.P. may be known to the right hon. Gentleman, is it not quite unreal to hold a conference without these people being represented? Will he give an assurance that at the conference he will try to promote democratic advance in the Protectorate States?
    Mr. Sandys: That is, of course, the purpose of the conference, and is in accord with the wishes of the people about whom the hon. Member speaks.
    Mr. Sorensen: Prior to the conference were there consultations with the leaders of the several parties in Aden? Further, can the right hon. Gentleman indicate the likely termination of the conference?
    Mr. Sandys: I cannot say. It would be very rash to try to say when these conferences will be likely to come to an end. We are making progress. It is difficult enough, I can assure the House, to get the agreement of representatives of 14 separate States, many of whom have quite different views from one another. As to prior consultation with the political parties in Aden, I myself went to Aden the other day. I received delegations from all the political groups in Aden but, in order

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    to ensure that they had an additional opportunity to express their views, I arranged for my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State to go out to Aden before the conference and make himself available to receive the views of any political parties that wished to add anything to what they had already told me.
    Mr. Wade: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that in the development of Southern Arabia it is most important that Her Majesty's Government should avoid the errors which were committed at the time of the setting up of the Central African Federation when a large and important body of opinion was ignored? It is true that there are many different points of view, but is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that all important political points of view are being considered and taken into account in this development?
    Mr. Sandys: Yes, I am. All important political views are being taken into account.
    Mrs. Hartasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies which of the Rulers of the States of the South Arabian Federation at present attending the London Conference were appointed to their position by Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Sandys: None, Sir.
    Mrs. Hart: Is it not a fact that, over the last few years, four of the Rulers of States have been deposed by the British Government? Can the right hon. Gentleman say how, in the absence of any kind of democratic structure in these States, new Rulers have been appointed?
    Mr. Sandys: It varies from State to State, but the normal method of appointing a Ruler is for the tribes to appoint the Ruler in accordance with tribal custom. After that, the British Government recognise the new Ruler. That is the procedure.
    Mrs. Hart: If the normal practice of the British Government is to recognise a Ruler whom the tribe appoints, how is it that the British Government take the right to depose a Ruler? Does not this totally disclose the nature of the London conference now going on?
    Mr. Sandys: That has nothing to do with it.

    Yemen Border (Situation)
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the present situation on the South Arabian-Yemen border.
    Mr. Sandys: In recent weeks there have been no open violations of Federal territory by Yemeni forces, though arms and other supplies continue to be sent from the Yemen to the rebels in the Radfan mountains.
    Mr. Henderson: Have any overtures been made by the rebels in the Radfan area? If so, should not the policy of Her Majesty's Government be flexible in response to such overtures?
    Mr. Sandys: The right hon. Gentleman's Question dealt with the border. This is a different matter. Certain approaches have been made, but I do not wish to encourage too high hopes that these will lead to an immediate cessation of the hostilities. Naturally, not only we but the Federal Government, who are primarily concerned in this matter, are anxious to encourage any steps which would lead to the ending of this trouble.
    Mr. Warbey: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the policy of inducing the rebels in the Radfan area to submit to their feudal authorities by deliberately starving out their women and children—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]
    Mr. Brockway: That is admitted.
    Mr. Warbey: —and that has been admitted by the Minister of Defence—is a policy conducive to a successful political settlement of the problems of the area? Will the right hon. Gentleman assist a political settlement by announcing that the person responsible for this crime against humanity will be dismissed and punished?
    Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member's supplementary question is not related to the one on the Order Paper. All I would say is that he has presented a

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    wholly distorted picture of the position and one which I can only imagine is calculated to cause mischief and do damage.
    Mr. Warbey: On a point of order. I understood the Minister to say that my question was calculated to do mischief and damage. May I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that that is an imputation of a dishonourable and malicious motive which the right hon. Gentleman has no right to make?
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is at liberty to say that. I do not say that it is right or wrong, but I think that it is permissible.
    Mr. Bellenger: On a point of order. Is it in order for hon. Members to impute dishonourable motives?
    Mr. Speaker: I think that the words were "calculated to" which means prima facie "that is the result of". [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is quite capable of meaning that, and if that is so I must not construe it in a worse form.
    Mr. Bottomley: With respect, may I suggest that it is the intention that counts? If the intention has the result which my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) suggested, I submit that it should be ruled out of order.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the words used were out of order, for the reason which I have given.

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA

    University College
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies, in agreeing to make further financial contributions to the University College of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, what guarantees he secured that the College will in future be multiracial in character; and what evidence he obtained regarding the extent to which the college is at present open to students of all races.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and for the Colonies (Mr. R. P. Hornby): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given
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    by my right hon. Friend to my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) on 4th June.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that Answer did not state how many places at the college would be kept open to Africans from other Territories? In view of the fact that the Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland authorities have dissociated themselves from this college, and in view of the substantial contribution made by the United Kingdom towards the build-up of the college, have guarantees been given that proportional places will be kept at the college for Africans from other African Territories?
    Mr. Hornby: If the hon. Member will refer to the agreed statement which was made by both the British Government and the Southern Rhodesia Government, he will find that the multi-racial character of the university was written into that and also into the college charter. I therefore think that a further guarantee will be unnecessary.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Has final agreement now been reached on who is responsible for the control of the university? Is it one of the Federal assets which has passed over completely into the control of the Southern Rhodesia Government, which would be highly unsatisfactory to many of us? What arrangements have been finally arrived at?
    Mr. Hornby: Control of the university is now the responsibility of the Southern Rhodesia Government.

  BRITISH GUIANA

    Situation
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies if he will make a statement on the situation in British Guiana.
    Mr. Sandys: Since my statement yesterday I have received reports of some further acts of inter-racial violence. But the situation is generally quiet.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those of us who are receiving communications from British Guiana have no doubt at all that it is the desire of the overwhelming mass of the people that racial conflict shall

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    end? Is not it the case that if a bitter political controversy recurs, that conflict will also recur? Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, again consider the proposal of some Commonwealth intervention in this matter? Will he consider, for example, a proposal for a Commonwealth committee of conciliation, representative of both India and an African country, which would appeal to the races in this territory and, with the backing of the people who want a settlement of this problem, would provide a constructive way of reaching a solution?
    Mr. Sandys: I answered several Questions on that point at Question Time yesterday. I have nothing to add to what I said then.
    Mr. M. Foot: Is not it the case that the result of the action of the Governor in making some of these arrests is to alter the balance of the parties in the Legislative Assembly? What is the right hon. Gentleman's comment on that situation? How does he think that the Government can carry on? Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman say again, when he has considered the matter afresh, whether any charges are to be brought against those who have been arrested? Is he aware that if he continues to back actions of this nature whilst rejecting any proposals from any quarter for trying to seek a different constitutional settlement, we can only draw the conclusion that his actions are calculated to cause mischief and damage?
    Mr. Sandys: I thought that the last point was a fair retort.
    Mr. Brockway: And not a slimy one.
    Mr. Sandys: On the question of a majority in the Legislature, the Governor, naturally, did not choose those people to be detained in the interests of public safety with any regard to what their functions or positions were. He had to deal with a difficult security situation and I do not think that it would have been right for him to treat differently people whom, in the interest of public safety, he considered should be detained, just because they were members of the Legislative Assembly.
    I cannot say anything at the moment about the question of charges, but the
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    purpose of these emergency regulations, as in all countries in situations like this, is to enable people to be detained whom it is thought desirable to detain for the sake of public safety. Very often, as the House knows, and I think that I have made this clear before, it is not easy to bring charges against people even when the fullest evidence is available, for the simple reason that, in a country like British Guiana, it is extremely difficult to get witnesses to appear in open court, or even in camera, and to give evidence against somebody when they think that their house may be burned down the next night.
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what agreement has now been reached between the major parties for a Coalition Government in British Guiana.
    Mr. Sandys: None, Sir.
    Mr. Chapman: For a start, should not a word of public thanks be given to Dr. Eric Williams for trying at least to bring the two parties in British Guiana together? Second, was it absolutely clear, before the present state of emergency was declared, that Dr. Williams's attempts had entirely failed to bring the two parties together? Third, what attempts are still going on, despite the emergency, to bring the two parties together for this, the only possible long-term solution for British Guiana?
    Mr. Sandys: I have already said in the House how warmly I welcomed Dr. Williams's efforts in trying to bring the parties together. I welcome also the efforts made by Sir Alexander Bustamante and by Mr. Barrow from Barbados. Since Dr. Williams's last effort, Mr. Burnham, in the Legislative Assembly, put forward a proposal for a Coalition Government. This was not accepted by Dr. Jagan, who put forward a counter-proposal, which has not been accepted by Mr. Burnham. That is the position.
    Mr. Brockway: Is it not a fact that, after quite long negotiations, first the mission from Ghana, then the continued efforts of Dr. Eric Williams and others, the margin of difference on a proposal for a coalition is now very small indeed and "that, if the right hon. Gentleman and

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    the Government had been exerting their pressure to get an agreement about a coalition, it would not have been necessary to impose the emergency powers?
    Mr. Sandys: That is not right—
    Mr. Brockway: Yes, it is.
    Mr. Sandys: —and it is very unfair.
    Mr. Brockway: No, it is not.
    Mr. Sandys: I have been doing everything I could for two years now to try to get these people to work together, both at two conferences in London and at meetings which I had myself in Georgetown. Dr. Williams has tried. The West Indian leaders have tried. The Ghanaian good will mission has tried. Every effort has been made. It is no good saying that the differences are very slight. They may be slight. But they are the difference between each one's calculation as to what is in the best interests of his party.

  INDIA

    Retired Service Men and Widows
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what representations he has received from the United Kingdom Citizens' Association about the financial problems of the retired officers and officers' widows and other ranks who are British citizens and who remained in India after independence; and if he will give assistance to the Association to enable it to help these persons.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and for the Colonies (Mr. John Tilney): None, Sir. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.
    Dame Irene Ward: As my right hon. Friend has ducked this Question, will my hon. Friend ask my right hon. Friend to fight the battle for these people with the Treasury? I have a great respect for my right hon. Friend's courage, but I wish that he would exercise it on the Treasury instead of in other aspects of our Commonwealth life? Many of these people have been extremely badly treated by the Treasury, which I am sure is not my right hon. Friend's wish,
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    so why does not he get on with putting a bit of real stimulus under the Treasury to do what ought to be done?
    Mr. Tilney: If my hon. Friend is referring—
    Dame Irene Ward: To everything.
    Mr. Tilney: —to the inability of those resident in India to receive pensions increases under British legislation, I can only reply that this is a problem which has been very carefully considered on many occasions. A great many factors are involved, and it has not been found feasible.
    Dame Irene Ward: So much the worse.

  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND COLONIES

    Technical College Students (Hostels)
    Mr. Benceasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies how many places under the official scheme for providing hostels for overseas students have been provided for students at local authority technical colleges.
    Mr. Hornby: The allocation of places under the Overseas Students Welfare Expansion Programme is based on the individual needs of students, not on the type of course which they are studying. The figures for which the hon. Gentleman asks are not, therefore, available. But I can assure him that students at local authority technical colleges are treated in the same way as all other students.
    Mr. Bence: Is it not essential, if we are to play our part in the development and expansion of the economies of the under-developed countries, that we should give places in our technical colleges and hostel accommodation so that we can help to produce technicians of the grade necessary for the development of these territories?
    Mr. Hornby: I entirely agree about the importance which we attach to this. Hence, the expansion of the hostel programme to which I have referred. I assure the hon. Gentleman also that technical college students are regarded as a very important group in this connection.
    Mrs. Slater: Does not the hon. Gentleman know that provision of this kind is time and time again being cut out of local authority building programmes because it is considered not very important, although it is almost impossible to find accommodation for these people, particularly in many of our large towns? Will he have further consultations with the Ministry of Education to see how provision of this kind could be speeded up?
    Mr. Hornby: I am always ready to consider any suggestions such as the one the hon. Lady makes, and I shall certainly look at any possible improvements which might be made, in conjunction with my hon. Friend at the Ministry of Education.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities which have wished to take advantage of the scheme in order to provide hostel accommodation for overseas students at their technical colleges have had their plans turned down by the Government?
    Mr. Hornby: The point about the rules for the hostel programme, the O.S.W.E.P. scheme as it was explained to Parliament, was that one condition should be the provision of a certain proportion of the funds from voluntary organisations. If that condition were to be fulfilled through the local authorities, then, perhaps, one might be able to give help under this scheme to students at technical colleges.

    South Pacific Commission
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what progress has been made as a result of the conferences of July, 1963, and February, 1964, in London of member Governments of the South Pacific Commission.
    Mr. Fisher: Discussions have been in progress for some time about modifications of the Agreement establishing the South Pacific Commission, to provide in particular for the admission of Western Samoa to membership.
    Mr. Godman Irvine: As the discussion has been going on for some time, has any thought been given to the possibility of a regional council acting on
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    behalf of the bigger council so that it could meet more frequently than once every three months?
    Mr. Fisher: This really is a regional council, constituted as it is. I acknowledge the delay, but I hope that it will be possible to make an announcement before long.

  ADEN

    General Election
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies when the geenral election in Aden will take place.
    Mr. Sandys: Not later than 25th October, 1964.
    Mr. Thomson: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the last elections took place as far back as 1958, on a 25 per cent. poll, and twice since then they have been postponed by Her Majesty's Government? Will he now give a firm assurance that there will be no further postponement and that they will, in fact, take place on 25th October?
    Mr. Sandys: I have no thought of taking any action to postpone them further.

    Newpapers (Licensing System)
    Mr. M. Footasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what restrictions are imposed on the grant of licences to publish a newspaper in Aden; and why such a licensing system is required.
    Mr. Fisher: The grant of licences is at the discretion of the Chief Minister of Aden State. He has explained that among the factors he takes into account when considering applications are the financial, technical and literary capabilities of applicants, the supply and demand for publications in Aden and considerations of security.
    Mr. Foot: After all that rigmarole, will the hon. Gentleman tell us why the People's Socialist Party in Aden is not allowed to publish a newspaper?
    Mr. Fisher: I understand that the application of that party to do so is at present under consideration by the Aden Government.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what qualification the Government have for judging the literary capabilities of the editors of a Socialist paper?
    Mr. Fisher: That is not a question for me. It is a question for the Chief Minister of Aden State.

  CYPRUS

    Situation
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the present situation in Cyprus.
    Mr. Sandys: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will be speaking about the Cyprus problem in the debate this afternoon. On the general situation, I have nothing to add to my statement to the House on 2nd June.

  ST. VINCENT

    Mass Meetings (Resolutions)
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies whether he is aware that mass meetings of citizens in St. Vincent have passed resolutions of no confidence in the island's Administrator for his refusal to dissolve the Legislature and order new elections; and what action he is taking to investigate the further corruption and fraud which the resolutions allege against the island's government.
    Mr. Fisher: The answer to the first part is "Yes, Sir" and to the second "None".
    Mr. Chapman: Does this mean that the Government are going to leave things exactly as they are in St. Vincent? Is it not the case that all possible evidence shows that there ought to be some form of public inquiry to see whether such charges as the wrongful sale of public land to private friends of the Government which are being bandied about have any grounds in fact? Would it not be much better to clear the air in St. Vincent by having some inquiry?
    Mr. Fisher: I know about these allegations of mal-administration. I have
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    been in touch with the Administrator about them and have been into them carefully, but he does not consider—and I agree with him—that there is sufficient foundation for them to warrant any special action.
    Mr. Talbot: Is not my hon. Friend aware that for some time past it has seemed that the Government in St. Vincent have been unable to assimilate the principles on which it is desired to translate Western democracy to former Colonies? Is it not time to make a decision to have a fresh start?
    Mr. Fisher: The Government command a majority in the Legislative Council in St. Vincent. Frankly, I do not wish to defend every aspect of Mr. Joshua's Government—we have had to criticise it on several occasions—but no particular incident has in itself justified a dissolution or a suspension.

  MALAWI

    Independence Celebrations
    Mr. M. Footasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies who will represent Her Majesty's Government at the Malawi Independence celebrations.
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what criteria were used in selecting the members of the United Kingdom Government delegation to the Malawi independence celebrations.
    Mr. Sandys: The Government are represented at such celebrations by a member of the Cabinet. As already announced, the British delegation to the Malawi Independence Celebrations will be led by my noble Friend, the Lord Chancellor.
    Mr. Foot: Is this the Government's idea of a square peg in a square hole? Is it intended that the Lord Chancellor will take with him a copy of the Devlin Report bound in vellum, or would it not be more gracious if the Government decided to send Lord Devlin himself to the celebrations instead of one who has been so bitterly opposed to the Nyasaland freedom movement?
    Mr. Sandys: Dr. Banda sent me a message to say that my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor would be very welcome.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there will be a tropical kit of a white sheet issued to the Lord Chancellor? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is a calculated insult to Nyasaland in view of the really shocking speeches which the noble Lord made when he was discussing the Devlin Committee's Report in this House in 1959?
    Mr. Sandys: All I can say is that if Commonwealth leaders who have said rough things about one another were not able to meet, we should have a very depleted table at Marlborough House next month.

  FIJI

    Balance of Trade
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies what was the 1963 balance of trade in Fiji.
    Mr. Fisher: There was a trade surplus of about £1·3 million sterling in 1963 compared with a deficit of about £1·5 million in 1962. This was due mainly to increased exports of sugar, and to the higher prices for sugar sold on the world market.
    Mr. Godman Irvine: As this is only the third occasion in the last 12 years when there has been a similar result, could not my hon. Friend offer some word of congratulation to the negotiators involved in it?
    Mr. Fisher: They were very good, and I am very pleased about it, but it is really due to the higher production of sugar, on which we can congratulate Fiji, and the higher price of world sugar, which is quite an extraneous factor.

    OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
    Ql. Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Minister of Overseas Development.
    The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): I am not satisfied on the information before me that it would be advantageous to separate overseas
    1106
    development from our general Commonwealth, Colonial and Foreign policies of which it is an essential part.
    Mrs. Castle: Has not the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development revealed once again the extent to which these problems overlap and heightened the confusion about Ministerial responsibility in this field? Is it not absurd that the President of the Board of Trade should be making important proposals on development at Geneva when it is other Ministers who are responsible to this House for the British end of those policies? Should we not make much more effective use of our development aid if we rationalised its administration under one Minister?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that we should necessarily achieve this result by putting one Minister over, for example, the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because these matters go very much into the sphere of both of them. What happens is that Ministers meet and arrange policy, and whenever it is necessary for a Minister to speak at Geneva or at meetings of the International Fund, that policy is put forward by the Minister most appropriate.
    Dr. Bray: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that sufficient Ministerial attention has been given to the United Nations Trade Conference in Geneva in view of its outcome?
    The Prime Minister: I should have thought that if the hon. Member read the proceedings he would find that the British delegation, with my right hon. Friend at its head, probably saved the conference from complete confusion.
    Mrs. Castle: As the President of the Board of Trade has at Geneva made proposals for extending the powers and resources of the International Development Corporation, for example, will the Prime Minister arrange that in future he should answer to this House for the work of the I.D.A. instead of the Treasury, which knows nothing about it?
    The Prime Minister: I have said that I think we must divide this work sensibly. We should not necessarily get the result which the hon. Lady wants by putting one Minister over the heads of others.

    1107
    I am always open to receive any suggestion for improving the machinery, but I just do not think this would work.

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDUSTRY AND TRADE (STATEMENT)
    Mr. Storehouseasked the Prime Minister if the official statement of the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development on 28th May to Opera Mundi on the political aspects of Great Britain's relations with the Common Market represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. BIytonasked the Prime Minister if the official statement of the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development to Opera Mundi on 28th May on Britain's political policy with regard to the Common Market represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. BIyton: Is the Prime Minister aware that the statement made still shows that the Government are hankering after the Common Market? Does he not think it ought to be a General Election issue so that the people can decide whether our economy is to be handed over to Europe to decide for us and whether it will shatter our Commonwealth and our agriculture? The Labour Party has determined its situation. Can we know where the Prime Minister stands?
    The Prime Minister: We have always believed that a wider political and economic unity in Europe was good for our own country, for Europe and for the Atlantic Alliance, but there is no issue before us now, and, therefore, I think that this is not a General Election issue.
    Mr. Grimond: Is it not apparent from the Questions and Answers and also from Answers given by the Foreign Secretary in this House on 3rd February that Her Majesty's Government do not intend to take any political initiative in Europe?
    The Prime Minister: At the moment I think that the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly aware what the position is. The Six have formed their own association. We are trying to keep as close to them as we can, because we do not want
    1108
    policies necessarily to diverge. As to the future, I cannot state what circumstances will arise, and, therefore, I am not going to make hypothetical guesses.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Common Market is the biggest importer in the world and the biggest trading group? Is it not, therefore, madness to stick our heads in the sand and ignore it altogether?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. As I have said, we are trying to see that our policies do not diverge. We want to make the most of the opportunities in this great market.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for this not to be an election issue means an assumption that it is not likely to come up in the next Parliament? In this Parliament terms were put forward by the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade for British entry into the Common Market which were in direct contradiction to pledges given by the Government before the last election. I am quite prepared to send the Prime Minister copies of those pledges if he does not know them. In view of all this, will he give an undertaking that, as long as he is in charge of affairs, there will be no question of entry into the Common Market on the conditions negotiated by the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade in Brussels before the intervention of President de Gaulle?
    The Prime Minister: I cannot say whether this issue will arise in the next Parliament. I have already told the House many times that, if it did, we should seek a new mandate from Parliament. It would be an entirely new situation.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Prime Minister aware that he is being less than frank on this very important issue and that the electorate, as well as Parliament, before the election will want to know where he stands? The Secretary of State for Industry and Trade gave a most important interview with Opera Mundi. Why did he do so and not the Foreign Secretary?
    Is the Prime Minister aware that the Secretary of State, in a very long interview, at no stage referred to the Commonwealth or to protection for the Commonwealth? Does the Prime

    1109
    Minister agree with that? Furthermore, does the Prime Minister agree with the reply that the Foreign Secretary gave yesterday when he said, in reply to a question, that he was not prepared to set out the conditions under which Britain's entry into the Common Market would be renegotiated?
    The Prime Minister: I have just said that we are not prepared to set out conditions under which British entry could he renegotiated, because we do not know what the circumstances will be or, indeed, whether this issue will come up again. I am perfectly content to leave this to the judgment of the electors as between the party opposite and the Government on this matter.
    Mr. H. Wilson: So that the electors can judge by knowing what both parties stand for, and since we have stated quite clearly our five conditions for British entry, and since the Prime Minister two weeks ago said that he did not accept those conditions, will he tell us which of them he is opposed to?
    The Prime Minister: I will have to refresh my memory about what I said on that occasion. However, I have the five conditions here. They are very broad principles and if—I trust that it will never be so—the right hon. Gentleman were ever in a position to pursue negotiations he could not rest on them.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We simply must make some progress.

    YOUNG WORKERS (EDUCATION AND TRAINING)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Prime Minister what steps he is taking to coordinate the plans of the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Minister of Labour in providing education and training for young workers.
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friends concerned with this matter are in close consultation as is shown, for example, by the vigorous implementation of the provisions of the Industrial Training Act passed this year.
    Mr. Boyden: Is the Prime Minister aware that many new features will
    1110
    develop with the Industrial Training Act and the expansion of day release? Does not he consider that he should strengthen the Ministry of Labour and the Department of Education and Science, ask the local education authorities to strengthen local organisation and set up some new organisation to cope with this new development?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that, so hard on the heels of the Act, there is need for a new organisation. My right hon. Friends the Minister of Labour and the Secretary of State for Education and Science work together very closely on this matter. If the hon. Gentleman has any specific thing in mind, I will consider it.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: Nevertheless, does not my right hon. Friend agree that the Act marks a major advance in the facilities available for young people?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. It is an extremely valuable Measure.

    CANNED MEAT (GOVERNMENT STOCKS)
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Prime Minister if he will now instruct the Ministers concerned to withdraw from distribution to the public the recent consignment of 13-year-old Government canned meat which has been identified by the Aberdeen medical officer of health as a possible origin of the typhoid outbreak.
    The Prime Minister: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland informed the House on 2nd June, there is no foundation for any suggestion that the infection at Aberdeen originated in canned corned beef from Government stocks.
    Dr. Mabon: Is the Prime Minister aware that that is not the view of the man in charge of the exercise in Aberdeen, the Medical Officer of Health? Would it not be prudent, irrespective of whether that gentleman is right or wrong, for this consignment of stock to be withdrawn, along with the others authorised to be withdrawn by the Secretary of State for Scotland? Will the Prime Minister look again at the activities of Ministers in this regard and consider whether the Government inquiry should not have wider terms

    1111
    of reference, including Ministerial responsibility, and be headed by a person other than Sir David Milne, an ex-civil servant?
    The Prime Minister: A great many people know Sir David and feel that this inquiry could not be in better hands. We want to find out how this infection started and the source. I can only repeat that there have been most careful inquiries into whether any tins came from stocks of Government meat into this supermarket. The answer as far as we know is "No".
    Mr. Peart: Is the Prime Minister aware that on Friday I put a Question to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food as to whether stocks now held had been cooled in unchlorinated water? I further asked the right hon. Gentleman
    "…whether he will require all future consignments of corned beef to be cooled in chlorinated water before acceptance."
    In other words, we must err on the side of safety. Is the Prime Minister further aware that I received the surprising reply that no records were kept and that the Minister added
    "What matters is not whether the water is chlorinated, but whether it is hygienic "?—OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th June, 1964, Vol. 696, c. 111.]
    Was not that Answer both unsatisfactory and shocking? Will the Prime Minister insist on his own Ministers finding more information about Government stocks?
    The Prime Minister: I gather that there are other ways of purifying water than by chlorination. One can distil or boil water. However, I am not standing on this, because the Question is about stocks of meat from Government sources. Questions on detail of how water should be purified should go to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
    Mr. H. Wilson: All of us have great respect for Sir David Milne, but does not the Prime Minister feel that it is wrong to appoint to an inquiry the recent head of a Department the activities of which must be under review and who was himself partially responsible for creating the system to be investigated?
    With regard to the withdrawal of stocks, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that, because of the danger to
    1112
    health of canned corned beef which had been cooled in unchlorinated water, ships on the high seas were diverted and not allowed to land their stocks here? In these circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the inter-departmental machinery to see why similar stocks which had already been landed were not withdrawn?
    The Prime Minister: We have been through all that before. [Interruption.] If hon. Members had been in their places, as I have been in mine, they would know that we have had this subject debated by question and answer time and again. I am asked today whether any Government stocks were in the supermarket concerned in Aberdeen. The answer, as far as we know, is "No".

    MILITARY OPERATIONS (OFFICIAL HISTORIANS)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister how many official historians are now employed writing histories of military operations.
    The Prime Minister: The number of historians now engaged in writing the military histories of the Second World War is 13.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that students of history at Eton and Oxford are greatly handicapped because no official historian has written the story of the war in Suez? Is he satisfied that this history should be written by a Chicago professor who, if his version is correct, has some very serious aspersions to cast upon the Lord Privy Seal? Are there not unemployed historians in this country who are perfectly capable of writing the history, including one eminent Oxford historian, Mr. A. J. P. Taylor?
    The Prime Minister: I have no doubt that we could mobilise plenty of historians to do the job, but I do not think the Question on the Order Paper has anything to do with Suez. It asks how many official historians are employed writing the histories of military operations. I have already answered Questions about Suez. Official historians deal with military matters and I do not think that there is any case for an official history of the Suez operation.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Prime Minister take the view that Suez was not a military operation but a fiasco?
    The Prime Minister: That may be the hon. Member's view of it, but I do not think that this matter would be carried any further by having an official historian confirm or deny it.

MANCHESTER NEW TOWN
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Sir R. CARY: To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will now make an announcement in regard to the Manchester new town.
Mr. C. MORRIS: To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will now make a statement indicating the location of the new town to meet the housing needs of the City of Manchester.
The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Sir Keith Joseph): With permission, I will now answer Questions No. 47 and No. 48.
To help Manchester and their neighbours to carry out their slum clearance programmes I have decided to propose the designation of a new town of about 50,000 people to the east of Warrington.
Its general location would be between the Mersey and the East Lancashire road, and the M.6 motorway and the Glaze Brook, including the former Admiralty Stores Depot at Risley; its precise location and area must depend on a detailed survey which I am arranging.
The local planning authorities are aware of this proposal and they will be consulted further on the draft designation Order.
I propose, also, that a planning study should be made to identify the relationships between this new town, the County Borough of Warrington and the new town of Runcorn, so as to promote a balanced development within this general area, and I shall be consulting with the local planning authorities and the Runcorn Development Corporation about how this might be carried out.
Sir R. Cary: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that announcement will be received with the greatest satisfaction in the City of Manchester, particularly as the site at Risley falls within the frontiers of South Lancashire, where there are already good transport facilities by rail and the East Lancashire road into the city? Would he care to name the exact authority which will be discharging the task of developing the new town?
Sir K. Joseph: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. If the new town finally gets the approval of the Government after the due processes, it will be administered by a new town corporation specially set up for the purpose.
Mr. C. Morris: Is the Minister aware that after 13 long, frustrating and vacillating years, reasonable people will accept that today he has arrived at a not too hasty decision? Is he aware that this location will make almost total the urbanisation of the whole of the South Lancashire area between Liverpool and Manchester? Is he aware that in the area indicated in the statement 1,100 people were recently declared redundant at the British Transport Commission's Viaduct Works at Earlestown? Can he give me an assurance that, as this is the first of the new towns to be designated since the publication of the Buchanan Report, the principles adumbrated in that Report will be borne in mind by the planners of the new town?
Sir K. Joseph: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's comment that this will mean total urbanisation of the whole area. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade has set up a planning team to work out a regional study for the whole of the northwest area which should be published early next year and within which this new town must be seen. Employment prospects in the area will undoubtedly improve if the new town goes there. All Government new towns will be designed with close attention to Buchanan principles.
Mr. Lee: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Risley is in my constituency, but that Warrington Rural District Council has never been consulted about the matter until today? Is he further aware that every railway station in this area is due for closure? Is it not a

1115
little difficult to know how to plan a new town while making quite certain that new industries cannot go there because they would be unable to transport their goods?
Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Gentleman is being very inaccurate.
Mr. Lee: I am not.
Sir K. Joseph: Some relatively minor railway lines are proposed for closure by the Railways Board under present plans, but, of course, before making any decision on these proposals my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport will take into account the new situation brought about by the proposed designation of the new town.
Mr. Gardner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, whatever may be the state of the railways in the North-West, serving new towns which are to be built, when the party opposite planned Basildon new town in my constituency it did not plan a railway station, and that there is no railway station in Basildon new town? Is he aware that it is the view of the majority of people, industrialists and others, who live in Basildon new town that there is no need for a railway station?
Sir K. Joseph: I think that my hon. and learned Friend is quite right to point out that industrialists take their road communications extremely seriously. Of course, they might need freight railways and there might be a need for passenger railways, too, and this will be taken into account by my right hon. Friend. But the Risley area will have superb road communications.
Mr. W. T. Williams: What consultation has the Minister had with Warrington Council about this developing new town? Has he considered the effect of the creation of this new town at this time upon Warrington's wishes to expand its own boundaries? Will he keep in touch with Warrington, bearing in mind its need to expand, before any further procedure?
Sir K. Joseph: The local authorities concerned have been informed of the Government's proposal, but the next stage, after the ground survey which I
1116
have described, is to make a draft designation Order, when I am statutorily bound to consult all the local authorities in the area. That is the stage at which they will be fully consulted.
Mr. Lee: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Atomic Energy Authority now has an establishment of 5,000 people at Risley and that the whole area, including Croft, is now far more heavily populated than ever before? As British Railways has closed down a huge wagon works in the same area, and there is no alternative employment, other than in areas outside Newton and Risley, people are now travelling by the railways to go to work. Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it to be antisocial that people who are rendered unemployed should try to get work outside the area? Will he ensure that Dr. Beeching does not prevent them from getting such work by closing the local railway stations?
Sir K. Joseph: These are all considerations for my right hon. Friend before any decision is made.

UNITED NATIONS CONFERENCE ON TRADE AND DEVELOPMENT
3.40 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development and President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Edward Heath): Mr. Speaker, with your permission and that of the House, I should like to make a statement on the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, which opened in Geneva on 23rd March, and which ends successfully today.
The recommendations adopted by the conference will be presented to the General Assembly of the United Nations at its 19th Session in the autumn. They include proposals for diversifying and expanding the exports of manufactures from developing countries, on access to markets for primary products, on commodity policy and proposals concerning aid for development.
Among the latter is an important recommendation, which the British delegation initiated, inviting the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development to study the feasibility of

1117
a new scheme for multilateral aid, and, if appropriate, to work out such a scheme. This would be administered under the International Development Association. It would be designed to help developing countries whose development programmes were threatened by adverse trends in their export proceeds of a nature or duration which could not be adequately dealt with by short-term balance of payments support.
I was also able to inform the conference today of four additional measures which Her Majesty's Government propose to take in the field of multilateral aid. These are:

(1) At a conference to be held next autumn we shall announce an increase in our contribution to the Special Fund and the expanded programme of technical assistance for 1965.

(2) Together with other Western countries we are willing to support an increase in the United Nations budget which will make possible an expansion of the activities of the United Nations Secretariat in the field of industrial development.

(3) We are willing to provide capital assistance to the African Development Bank at the appropriate time.

(4) We are also willing to examine sympathetically the possibility of assisting other regional development banks including the Inter-American Development Bank.

Another important recommendation adopted concerns the future institutional arrangements for dealing with matters considered by the conference. It recommends that the conference should be established as an organ of the General Assembly of the United Nations, meeting at intervals of not less than three years, and that when the conference is not in session its functions should be exercised by a Trade and Development Board composed of 55 members representing the different groups of States participating in the conference. The conference and Board will function over broadly the same area as the conference which has just ended; they will have power to make recommendations, but these will not be mandatory. I believe that the proposed new institutions can do constructive work in many fields which
1118
are not adequately covered by existing international bodies.
I am glad to say that despite some last-minute difficulties broad agreement was reached over this wide range of issues. Perhaps the most encouraging feature was that it proved possible to negotiate compromises which, in general, avoided resolutions being passed which stood no chance of being implemented and which would have served only to emphasise differences of interest and approach between the richer and poorer nations.
This has been the largest and most important conference ever held on international economic relations. Its outcome will influence the course of world affairs, political as well as economic, for a long time to come. Its failure would not only have been a setback to the expansion of world trade; it would have been a severe disappointment to the hopes and aspirations of the developing countries. Its success can contribute to the creation of a greater prosperity in which all can share.
Mr. Jay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we warmly welcome the rare occasions on which we can give broad support to his policy? Can he make quite clear that Her Majesty's Government support the recommendations of this conference, and that if they are approved by the United Nations Assembly we shall do our best to push them forward? In particular, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what became of the British proposals for wider preferences and for wider access for the underdeveloped countries in markets of the industrial countries?
Mr. Heath: We were able to support a large number of the recommendations put forward, and I think that the whole conference will agree that the British delegation took a constructive approach. Our position on each specific recommendation is set out in the voting on each recommendation and in the full explanation given in the committee and in the plenary.
It was not possible to reach agreement at the conference about extending preferences, and, therefore, this matter has been remitted to the continuing machinery in specific terms for further examination in an attempt to secure agreement on it.
Mr. Turton: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on his personal part in saving the conference, may I ask what steps were taken in line with his proposals for securing the greatest stability of commodity prices?
Mr. Heath: There has been a different approach on commodity prices between the full proposals for what might be termed a managed market and proposals which we supported, and have done in the commodity arrangements of which we are members, for stability in prices, but not tying these prices to changes in the terms of trade. There was general agreement about the desirability of stability in commodity arrangements, There was full support for this, and the General Assembly and the new machinery will now discuss how these should be carried out.
Mr. Wade: While welcoming the decisions reached at the conference, including the setting up of the proposed standing organisation, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether Her Majesty's Government will follow this up with discussions at the Commonwealth Conference with a view to achieving a common policy on trade and aid to the developing countries?
On the subject of preferences, would Her Majesty's Government be prepared to propose the setting up of a study group of members of the Commonwealth with the object of revising the preferences so as to extend them to all developing countries?
Mr. Heath: These matters were very fully discussed by all the members of the Commonwealth at the meeting which we held for this purpose immediately prior to the opening of the conference. In Geneva we have had three meetings with all the Commonwealth countries about the conference as it has proceeded.
I should like to explain that one of the most important features of this conference has been the emergence of the group of 75 developing countries working together. These countries include about 14 members of the Commonwealth who are all developing countries, including New Zealand, Nigeria, Ghana, as well as the smaller Commonwealth countries.
The policies which we have been supporting are policies which are not only
1120
supported, but have been asked for, by all the developing countries of the Commonwealth, and have been supported by Australia and Canada, the developed ones, too.
As regards the future of the preference arrangements, the Commonwealth, again, is in agreement with the proposals in the form in which we put them forward.
Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan: As this was such a very important conference, will Her Majesty's Government consider publishing a White Paper amplifying the statement which my right hon. Friend has made today?
Mr. Heath: I shall give full consideration to that, and also make available in the Library all the documents as they are completed. As I understand that the conference consumed 2½ metric tons of paper daily, I think that hon. Members would like me to provide something of a summary of the proceedings.
Mr. Bellenger: Although it is a matter for congratulation that eventually unanimity was displayed by 75 countries, nevertheless there was one issue which, I gather, was left in abeyance, namely, the system of voting in the future. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the principle of one nation one vote is to prevail, or whether any compromise is to be made on that point?
Mr. Heath: There was agreement that the principle of one nation one vote should prevail, but the Secretary-General of the United Nations was asked to set up a committee, after consultation with the Powers, to examine conciliation procedures so that a consensus of opinion could be obtained. Certain countries reserved their right to put before the committee proposals for quantitative voting. There has been some confusion about weighted voting in which case a country might have more than one vote for that purpose. That has been discarded, and the principle of one vote one country has been adhered to. Some countries wish to put forward proposals for qualified majorities in various way. They will be able to do this to the committee. The committee will make recommendations and the General Assembly will decide.
Mr. Wall: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on his rôle at this

1121
conference, may I ask whether he can assure the House that British aid to Commonwealth countries will in no way be decreased by the arrangements agreed for aid to all the underdeveloped countries?
Mr. Heath: They will benefit from the further arrangements which I have announced today.
Mr. Prentice: Can the right hon. Gentleman say any more about the proposals to increase the Special Fund and the programme for technical assistance? Is it the intention that the targets suggested by U Thant in 1960 can be reached in spite of the fact that these funds have fallen short of the target in the years since then?
Mr. Heath: I cannot give specific details of the amount. The pledging conference is the conference to which I referred, which will be held in the autumn, and there, with other Powers, we shall make known what additional amounts we can make available.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We cannot discuss this further now.

NEW MEMBER SWORN
Walter Harold Alldritt, esquire, for Liverpool, Scotland.
BILL PRESENTED

  SUSPENDED SENTENCE
  Bill to amend Section 3(5) of the Criminal Justice Act 1948 by providing that courts when making probation orders shall indicate to the offender the sentence which they intend to impose in the event
  1122
  of a breach of the probation order, presented by Mr. R. Gresham Cooke, supported by Mrs. Emmet, Mr. Stratton Mills, Miss Vickers, Mr. Iremonger, Mr. Gurden, Mr. Dudley Smith, Lady Gammans, and Mr. Holland; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 26th June, and to be printed. [Bill 164.]

NOTICE OF BUSINESS
Sir John Maitland: On a point of order. At the beginning of Questions today several hon. Members were obviously rather upset because they had not been informed that notice was not given that Private Members' Bills were dealt with. Members like to know what is to happen, and I wondered whether, when important Government statements are made, as was the case today, some notice should be given, if possible on the Order Paper, or—as that obviously is not always possible—verbally at the beginning of Questions, the reason being that many hon. Members are particularly interested in certain statements, and that would give them an opportunity of hearing them and, if necessary, asking questions. That would further the policy that the House has gradually introduced, of letting Members know a little more than they used to know about what is to happen in the House.
Mr. Speaker: I am obliged to the hon. Member. As he speaks to me, I am not sure how much I can do about this. I rather think that the hon. Member's observations should be addressed to the Leader of the House in this context. No doubt we can now proceed with our business, because what he has said will have been heard, and from the interest involved in it it seems a matter which the House would obviously like to think about.

COUNTY COURTS (NON-SUIT)
3.54 p.m.
Sir Barnett Janner (Leicester, North-West): I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide that non-suits in county court actions shall be subject to the discretion of the court.
The Bill which I hope to introduce seeks to remedy an archaic provision in the procedure which is at present prevailing in county courts. In my attempts to introduce previous Bills I have used the expression "believe it or not", and I can use it again. Believe it or not, when an action is taken in a county court, after all the evidence in the action has been given by the plaintiff in support of his case, and the defendant in reply, and after the concluding addresses to the judge have been made by the respective parties or their legal representatives, the plaintiff is still entitled, as of right—and I am sure that this fact will be unknown even to hon. Members who have been in practice for many years—to ask that he be non-suited, and in such circumstances the court has no alternative but to accede to that request. I see some hon. and learned Members pricking up their ears.
This means, in as simple terms as I can use, that a plaintiff, although he has put the defendant to the expense and trouble of preparing his case and bringing his witnesses to court, and incurring additional expense for legal representation and such other incidentals as arise, and after the time of everybody concerned, including the court, has been taken up, possibly for days—as occurred in a recent case in which I was engaged—the plaintiff can set aside all those considerations by asking that the case shall be non-suited.
This means that the position in respect of the matters at issue stands exactly where it was before the case started. It is true that, as occurred in the case to which I have referred, the court can award costs, substantially higher than those allowed under the usual prevailing scales, to the defendant. But in many respects this does not compensate him.
The House will readily understand the serious difficulty of getting witnesses
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to court. A witness may leave the district in which he was living after the case had been heard, and he must be traced. If he is not prepared to go to court willingly he has to be subpoenaed. Inevitably, the parties and their witnesses, in meeting the convenience of the court in respect of the date of the trial, have to make arrangements in respect of their business, and professional or domestic matters, which disturb the ordinary routine of their lives.
It may be that one or other of them will be ill, or away on important business on the next occasion when the plaintiff chooses, at his own discretion, to set down the new case for trial, in respect of the very same subject matter that was brought before the court on the previous occasion. The plaintiff will have a right to enter the case for trial at a court on a date which suits his personal convenience.
It is true that in such circumstances the defendant can apply to have another date fixed by the court, and I suppose that in those circumstances the court would arrange to meet the convenience of the defendant, but if it had no dates available for that time it would be very reluctant to fix another date. This entails an application to the court, and it may not suit the court to give another date.
This is a ridiculous position, which does not prevail today in the High Court. In the case of Clack v. Arthurs Engineering Limited, when the court had to make a decision on an issue of this nature, heard in the Court of Appeal in 1959, Lord Justice Willmer, referring to the anomaly which I am seeking to remedy, said:
"We cannot leave this case, however, without venturing to offer the suggestion that consideration might well be given to the desirability of abolishing the power to non-suit in the county court, as it has been abolished in the High Court. Non-suit was a remedy suitable enough in an age when the plaintiff won or lost his case according to the way in which it was pleaded, and when no right of amendment existed such as exists today. Bearing in mind the right of discontinuance which is conferred by the County Court Rule, Order 18, and the abundant facilities for amendment provided under County Court Rule, Order 15, we find it difficult to appreciate what object is served by preserving in the county court today the

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old common law remedy of non-suit, which we venture to think few practitioners of today fully understand."
I am not asking that we should dispense entirely with the right of the plaintiff to ask for a non-suit, but there are circumstances in a county court—which is the people's court—in which a layman may overlook something or other which the court may think entitles him to have the case tried again. My proposed Bill would place the question within the discretion of the county court judge—a discretion which I am certain he will use if he thinks that the slightest unfairness would befall the plaintiff if he did not grant it.
It would obviously not be exercisable in a case when the plaintiffs had been properly and fully represented, but certainly, in the case of a layman, it might just be possible that this should be allowed in spite of the fact that it was taken away in the High Court.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir B. Janner, Mr. Graham Page, Mr. Wade, Mr. Lipton, Mr. Sidney Irving, Mr. Randall, Mr. Stones, Mr. van Straubenzee, Mr. Skeffington, Mr. Talbot, Mr. Hector Hughes, and Mr. Hendry.

COUNTY COURTS (NON-SUIT)
Bill to provide that non-suits in county court actions shall be subject to the discretion of the court, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 26th June, and to be printed. [Bill 165.]
ADJOURNMENT
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Redmayne.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
4.1 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. R. A. Butler): I hope that in this debate we shall be realistic and take note of some of the fundamental changes which are taking place in the world. Our diplomacy must deal with the problems of the future and not of the past. In the Communist world, we are witnessing de-Stalinisation and heightened friction. Meanwhile, we in the West have been through a rapid sequence of decolonisation coinciding with a period of greatly reinforced allied strength.
All this period of movement has presented a great challenge to our diplomacy, which we have kept flexible and resourceful. These qualities have been very much needed since, for our size and resources, we have become deeply involved in a variety of testing situations to a more widespread extent than any other Power, including the two colossi, the United States of America and the U.S.S.R. With the support of the House, it is my conviction that we shall emerge from these testing situations with credit.
I should like to pay a tribute to our allies and to the alliances which have been such a great help to us in this period and will be so in the future. I should also like to refer to Anglo-American solidarity, to which I should like to pay a special tribute since I have enjoyed so much of the friendship and help of our American colleagues.
In this debate, much of the interest will centre on the circumference, whether in the Far East, Indo-China, Aden or the Eastern Mediterranean, but I will deal first with the centre. At the centre, for more than a decade the West has been preoccupied with building up a reliable defence against threats to the security and integrity of our American and European N.A.T.O. allies. These threats culminated in the Berlin and Cuba crises. They were met with strong resolution and a refusal to be flurried. We can now legitimately say, and I say so after attending two N.A.T.O. conferences, that the issue of the main confrontation is no longer in doubt provided that we maintain our defensive power. This power includes the maintenance and possession of our own

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nuclear deterrent as a basis of our foreign policy.
I will now say a word about the Communist world. Changes are taking place in it of a nature which it is hard to estimate exactly. The myth of Communist solidarity has gone. Even the most professional apologist can no longer discern in Communist practice the application of an inspired theory, which is scientifically worked out, of universal validity and transcending national differences.
Even the most deeply hypnotised onlooker can hardly believe now in a relentless advance along the paths of history by a single centrally-controlled Communist juggernaut. Indeed, many Communists, not only the Yugoslavs, now preach polycentrism and the need for differing approaches to national Communism. All this is specially important in relation to Eastern Europe, and towards Eastern Europe generally we have been pursuing a forward policy.
During the past year, the trend towards greater flexibility has become much more noticeable. This poses problems for the Soviet Government. Mr. Khrushchev himself has admitted that the Eastern European countries have become like children who are now too big to spank. This, together with the open split between Moscow and Peking, explains the important statement published in Izvestya last week that
"nationalism has now become the main danger for the Socialist commonwealth ".
I believe that we in this country can take credit for perceiving with promptness the change in Eastern Europe. We have decided to raise the status of our missions, we have liberalised our trade, we have increased cultural exchanges, we have shown readiness to adapt our policies and, I assure the House, we shall continue to encourage the evolutionary trends apparent in Eastern Europe. The House is aware of our policy of trade with the area generally. We have just renewed our trade treaty with the Soviet Union, which should increase our trade with the Soviet Union. Hon. Members will be aware of the financial guarantees which are now available to do business with the Soviet Union and other countries.
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Of course, the main schism is between the Soviet Union and China. The two major Communist Powers are now deeply divided. They are divided by conflicts of national interest and by ideological disagreements on the international and internal policies which Communist States ought to adopt in the modern world. They are openly competing with each other for influence in the developing countries, in the Middle East, the Far East and in Africa. As if this were not enough, internal developments in the Communist countries obstinately refuse to conform to the pattern laid down in the sacred books. Far from there being a crisis of capitalism in the West, it is in the Communist world that the problems of economic growth are proving intractable.
Of course, we are not surprised. We have never believed that the system envisaged by the Communist economists would be very successful at producing the goods, but we take no satisfaction in the spectacle of the consumers in those countries going short and we are pleased to see that the economic assumptions are coming under discussion.
Taking all this situation into account, it is not surprising that in negotiating with the allied Governments the Soviet Government have shown little disposition to make such changes in their policy as would permit progress on the major questions of Germany and disarmament. On both these questions, British diplomacy has been playing a leading part. We are fully aware of the aspirations of the German people. Conversations have been proceeding between the Federal Government of Germany, the United States, France and ourselves on how best to approach the problem of the integration of Germany and to secure a future for Berlin which is in accordance with our pledges to the West Berliners.
The House will probably agree that there is no easy or quick solution to these problems. There is, however, no reason why they should not be approached bit by bit. We may be able to make progress on procedure—that is, machinery for discussing these problems—before we can decide the issues themselves. In this connection, the House will have seen that on 12th June, the Soviet Union signed a treaty of friendship and mutual assistance with the East German régime.

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This has not changed the situation in any way. Our rights and obligations with regard to Germany and Berlin remain firm, and we have made it clear that no unilateral act by the Russians can modify our continuing obligations and responsibilities or in any way affect the rights of the Western allies.
Now, as regards the disarmament negotiations, we have also been active. The main difficulty, as I have said before in this House and at the Geneva conference, lies not in producing new plans but in arriving at any detailed negotiation of the plans already on the table. That is why, when I was at Geneva, I made some proposals about getting down to these matters in committee work.
I notice that the main discussions which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had in Moscow related to disarmament questions. He brought back eleven points from the Kremlin. Moses was content with ten from Mount Sinai.
Mr. Harold Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman has got his analogy a bit mixed. We did not bring them back; we took them there.
Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman also took great pride in exhibiting them when he brought them home. Despite the fact that these are not written on tablets of stone, most of them are generally well known to us since we have been making our own progress on them. I will give the House the following examples.
First, we want to contain the further development of nuclear weapons, and that is the essential aim of the proposals for a comprehensive test ban treaty. Second, we support what is, in fact, the President of the United States' plan for freezing the production of nuclear delivery vehicles. Third, we have already supported the bonfire—that is, the earlier physical destruction of some armaments. I suggested an additional number of armaments when I spoke on 25th February at the Geneva conference. Fourth, we have put forward proposals for observer posts. Fifth, we have put forward proposals for improved verification. Sixth, we propose to pursue the possibility of signing an agreement on non-dissemination and non-proliferation of nuclear weapons.
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As I shall be dealing with peacekeeping, with nuclear-free zones and with the master plan about which the right hon. Gentleman spoke so much, this leaves few proposals which I have not covered. It is, therefore, not surprising that Lord Russell complained in a recent letter to The Times on 1st June that he could at present detect on a number of points no appreciable difference between the policy of the Opposition and that which I have described as our own approach.
On disarmament, I want to pursue this question of the master plan. If this means finding a compromise between Soviet and American ideas, this seems to me rather a dangerous misrepresentation of what can be achieved. It overlooks the fact that we have played a key part in framing the Western plan. It is our plan as much as the Americans' plan, and, having put it forward, we cannot immediately go back on it.
As regards peace-keeping, we have already made a number of specific proposals to this end. These include an increase in the size of the staff of the Secretary-General's military adviser, the preparation of contingency plans and studies of previous peace-keeping operations.
We have welcomed the steps taken by certain countries to earmark stand-by forces for United Nations' peace-keeping. I am sure that all of us who were able to talk to Mr. Haekkerup, the Foreign Minister of Denmark, when he came and gave a talk on this subject in the House will realise what a valuable contribution in this matter has been made by the Scandinavian countries. There is room for further constructive initiative of this kind. This is a subject which, I think, might be discussed constructively at the forthcoming Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference.
But, as I say, the best way to keep the peace is to be strong.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker rose—
Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman is to speak later, and I am sure that he can develop the point then.
Mr. P. Noel-Baker: The Foreign Secretary has said something very interesting about the master plan. Would

1131
he perhaps quote and explain what the Prime Minister said about the master plan in Geneva two years ago?
Mr. Butler: As the Prime Minister will also be speaking, I should not like to get in the way of either him or the right hon. Gentleman.
As I was saying, the only way to keep the peace is to be strong, and that is why we intend to maintain our own nuclear deterrent—and make no mistake about it. What made the partial test ban agreement possible was that we negotiated from strength, realising our own strength.
This brings me to a discussion of the multilateral force. In trying to negotiate a non-dissemination agreement we have, so far, come up against a blank wall in the Soviet argument that a multilateral force such as is now being discussed in the N.A.T.O. forum is inconsistent with non-dissemination and would open the way to the acquisition of control over nuclear weapons by the Governments of countries which contribute to the force. We recognise that the project is intended to serve the twin causes of European integration and Atlantic partnership, and we share the belief that the nuclear defence of Europe is not to be found separate from the United States, but in partnership with them.
For this reason, and because we want to consider the military aspects further, we are taking part in the discussions on the multilateral force, but we have not yet decided to join the multilateral force. Our discussions are without commitment as to ultimate participation. We have made certain constructive proposals to improve the concept of the force in the military sense. But whether we decide to join the force or not, we have repeatedly said that it is non-disseminatory. In any multilateral force there would be more fingers on the safety catch than there are now, not more fingers on the trigger. If the Russians have any doubt about this, then their best assurance would be to sign a non-dissemination agreement now. This would give them the formal assurance that they want that a multilateral force could not lead to dissemination.
I should like to mention one more specific proposal which has been the
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subject of much careful thought by Her Majesty's Government. This is the Polish proposal for a freeze of nuclear warheads within a limited zone in Central Europe. There are, as we see it, a number of military and political difficulties in any attempt to limit within the main area of East-West confrontation the freedom of either side to dispose of its military resources as it wishes, and the problems of inspection would be very considerable.
However, we welcomed the opportunity of studying the Polish proposals in detail, not only with our allies, but also in February with Polish officials. As I have suggested, there are various major difficulties about these proposals in their present form, but we have replied to them fully and are ready to resume discussions with our allies and with the Polish Government if this appears to be useful.
I should now like to say a word about Europe. I noticed that in one of his weekend speeches the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition asked us to say something about Europe. The right hon. Gentleman is becoming even more "Expressive" on this subject than that newspaper.
Our picture of Europe is set in an Atlantic frame, and it is this belief in European integration within an Atlantic partnership which we share not only with the United States but with the vast majority of our European allies.
Since our last foreign affairs debate. I have taken part in two meetings of the Council of Western European Union and two meetings of the Atlantic Council. In both these organisations we are working to make our view of the European and the Atlantic partnership prevail. There is no doubt that, whatever our relations with the rest of the world may be in the future, Britain will always remain a European Power. We continue to believe in the need for an ever-growing European unity.
As I see it, we have a rôle to play in Europe. This rôle can be played effectively only if we go further than simply exchanging views: we must seek conscientiously to work out a way of living together and common policies in the world with our European allies. This is precisely what we were discussing at the Western European Union on the

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occasions when I have been there, and I shall be going to the next meeting next month.
This is not an easy task since entry into the European Economic Community has not been open to us. It has not been since the Brussels negotiations broke down in January, 1963. I should like to add that we can expect to resume negotiations only if there were a real political will among all the countries represented that they should succeed. Meanwhile, we are doing all we can to strengthen the fabric of consultation through the Western European Union and through the normal diplomatic channels.
The House will be glad to hear that our trade with Europe is flourishing. Trade between us and our fellow members of the European Free Trade Association—E.F.T.A.—has expanded from £780 million in 1959 to nearly £1,150 million in 1963, an increase of 47 per cent. in five years. We have also maintained a very high level of exports to the Community itself, France, Italy, Germany and Benelux. In recent months, however, we have begun to feel the effect of tariff discrimination in Europe. This we are trying to remedy by making a success of the Kennedy round of tariff negotiations, which must have a major place in our European and worldwide policy.
Besides this—I think that we shall hear more and more of this tariff problem as the months go by—there is a wide feeling in Europe, reflected in the recent declaration of M. Monnet's Action Committee, that Britain should be associated with any resumed movement to create closer political union in Europe. I have stressed at all the meetings which I have attended that if any conversations take place we want to be in on them from the start. So far, no formal conversations have been held.
There are, of course, a great variety of suggestions, ranging from Professor Erhard's view that the Six countries may need a political roof for their own activities, to other and wider ideas of a looser association between some members of the European Free Trade Association and the Six, or between the Six and other countries outside. Our ideal remains that there should be a strong and united Western Europe and we are convinced that Britain can and should play a part in this without jeopardising her world-
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wide interests. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that such interests would be impaired were we to shrink from our rôle in Western Europe.
I now come to what I described earlier as our involvement, our widespread involvement, with the countries of the Middle East, Asia and the Far East. We maintain our bases whether in Cyprus, Libya, Aden, or Singapore because we believe that they play a vital part in preserving stability. They help to deter Communist aggression against our allies in CENTO and S.E.A.T.O. and they enable us to honour our commitments to our particular friends in each area.
In all these areas we have worldwide interests and historical responsibilities which we cannot and will not ignore. We are determined to defend the integrity and independence of Malaysia, which is as entitled to its independence as any other country. We are likewise determined to honour our obligations to the States of South Arabia and the Persian Gulf, and defend them—as in the case of Kuwait, in 1961—against any predatory neighbour.
So much for the general. Now for the particular. I wish, first, to refer to Cyprus. My right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary and I have been engaged in talks with the mediator and with Mr. George Ball, the United States Under-Secretary. Our aim has been to prepare the way for a practical and lasting solution and a series of talks are now to start in Washington which, we hope, will result eventually in the mediator being able to put forward a solution which is practical and acceptable to all the different interests concerned. We shall keep the closest contact not only with the United States Government, but with the United Nations and U Thant, the Secretary-General.
I should like to refer to some features of the local situation in Cyprus. We have drawn the attention of the United Nations Secretary-General to the continued buildup of arms and military forces in the Island by both sides. We have also drawn his attention to the steps taken by the Cyprus Government to introduce conscription to the Island. This has been done contrary to the constitutional procedure which would require the approval of the Vice-President. We have also

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pointed out that in our view it is in contravention of the Security Council resolution of 4th March, which called upon all member States to refrain from any action or threat of action likely to worsen the situation in the sovereign Republic of Cyprus or to endanger international peace.
There has also been an increasing tendency among the Greek Cypriots to attack the rôle played by the British troops in the United Nations peacekeeping force. This is particularly unjust and deplorable when one considers the immense services rendered by British forces to the Cypriot people as a whole in helping to bring peace to Cyprus since last Christmas. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I say that the behaviour of our troops, who have been operating under particularly difficult conditions and have frequently been exposed to gross provocation, has been beyond all praise.
The existing mandate for the United Nations force expires on 27th June and the Security Council will be considering this week whether or not to renew it. I understand that the Secretary-General will be producing a report on the present situation and the Security Council will no doubt wish to take this into consideration before deciding what further action may be necessary. We have made it clear to U Thant that we regard the United Nations force in Cyprus as providing a vital contribution to the maintenance of peace in the Eastern Mediterranean and that we greatly hope that the Security Council will decide to renew its mandate for a further period. If so, as we have informed the Secretary-General, we are prepared to make a further financial contribution of 1 million dollars towards the expenses.
As my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary informed the House on 2nd June, we have also told the Secretary-General that we remain anxious to do all we can to help the United Nations force to fulfil its mission. Before entering into a firm commitment to provide a British contingent for a further period we shall wish to be satisfied, particularly in view of the hostile attitude shown to our troops, to which I have just alluded, that our continued participation
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in the force is generally supported by all the other countries concerned.
The Secretary-General has pointed out that the original three months' period recommended by the Security Council for the stationing of the United Nations force does not apply to the mediator, upon whose efforts no time limit has been set. We do not yet know when the mediator will be producing his recommendation, but, as we have repeatedly made plain, we remain ready to offer our full co-operation in helping to promote any recommendation which is likely to prove acceptable to the main parties concerned.
Now let me look at South Arabia. Here, we wish to ensure the completion, in an orderly and constructive fashion, of the evolution to independence of the Federation of South Arabia. This is something for which we hold an historical responsibility, which we cannot and will not ignore. Our base at Aden is important not only for our defence commitments in the Persian Gulf, also in the area, but for Commonwealth and Western defence links across the world. The base has assumed renewed importance in relation to our ability to meet requests for assistance and co-operation from the emergent nations of East Africa, as we have so recently seen. We intend to maintain our base in Aden and look to the support of the House in this determination. I hope that the Leader of the Opposition has not been put off by the whiff of grapeshot from Mr. Mikardo on this subject.
Hostility to the Federation and to our position in Aden arises immediately, of course, from the conflict in the Yemen. Her Majesty's Government still think that the best policy is to keep out of the Yemen conflict. There has, however, been abundant evidence that subversive effort from the Yemen has been directed against the Federation in a variety of ways, of which support for the Radfan revolt is only one example. We are in process of quelling that revolt and we shall fight subversion wherever we find it.
As regards other interference with the South Arabian Federation, I should like to tell the House that, thanks to our determined attitude, there have been no further incursions into our territory and no repetition of incidents. We rightly attach first importance to diplomatic

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action. At the United Nations, the Security Council resolution of 9th April invoked the Secretary-General's good offices in the difficulties between the Yemen and the Federation. We said in the debate preceding that resolution that we wished to see demarcation of the frontier, where there has been difficulty, and the installation of United Nations' observers. The Secretary-General and his staff have urged our suggestions on the Yemeni Republican authorities, but I am sorry to say that so far there has been no positive response, although there are signs that the recently reconstituted Republican administration may show greater interest than previously.
I now come to Indo-China, where we have no intention to permit the objectives of the settlements of 1954 and 1962 to be undermined by the Communist advance. I have told Mr. Gromyko, who shares my responsibility as co-Chairman of the Geneva Conference, that we accept in principle the Polish proposals for a preliminary meeting at Zurich to seek means of restoring the 1962 settlement in Laos. Our Ambassador in Moscow is now trying to reach agreement on the terms of the invitations to such a meeting. If he is successful we shall be assisted in our deliberations by the Canadian, Indian, Polish, and Laotian delegates.
Consultations in Vientiane are still in progress and the reports and recommendations they produce will be invaluable to us if the Zurich meeting takes place. The Vientiane consultations also have the function of giving the Communist Powers time to reconsider their initial demand for a full-scale Geneva conference with no prior conditions.
I should also like to say a word about the problem of Cambodia and Vietnam. Our aim remains—and here we agree with the French Government—to ensure the neutrality of Cambodia. This problem has temporarily been transferred, at the instigation of the Cambodian Government, to the United Nations in New York. Until the Security Council has received and debated the report of the Commission it has appointed for this purpose, there is nothing I need or should say about Cambodian differences with Vietnam.
In South Vietnam, the cruelly unnecessary insurrection is still fomented from outside and still combated, with generous
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assistance from the United States, by the legitimate Government in Saigon, Because of our preoccupations in Malaysia we can offer little assistance beyond administrative advice and technical aid, but we wish these gallant people and our American friends every success in their long and arduous struggle.
On Malaysia and Indonesia, our policy is governed by the same twin principles as in Laos. That is, determined solidarity with our allies and the patient search for a just and peaceful solution. When I visited our Japanese and Philippine friends last month I explained to them that it is for the Malaysian Government, not for us, to decide whether a settlement with Indonesia is possible and what its terms might be.
Our rôle, apart from encouraging the negotiations which it was my privilege to do when I was in the Fast East, is simply to help Malaysia defend herself against arbitrary aggression meanwhile, thus ensuring that her representatives enter the conference room on a secure and equal footing. I emphasised in Tokyo and Manila that if there was to be an agreement between Malaysia and Indonesia it must be based on acceptance of the independence and integrity of Malaysia. We shall do nothing to urge agreement against the better judgment of the Malaysian Government themselves.
These frank statements fortified Senor Lopez, the former Foreign Secretary of the Philippines, in his efforts to secure Indonesian acceptance of satisfactory conditions for a further meeting of the Malaysian, Indonesian and Philippine Governments. As I speak it is still too early to predict the prospects of success for the negotiations, but a Foreign Ministers' meeting is likely to be held and I hope that that will be followed by a summit meeting of the leaders of the countries in Tokyo. The Indonesian Government must bring themselves to accept the fact of Malaysia's independence, but as long as Malaysia feels herself threatened and seeks our help she will have it.
We have treaty obligations laid down in our agreement on external defence and mutual assistance and we intend to honour them. I was glad to be able to be in these capitals at an

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important time and to take some part in encouraging this meeting which is to take place. What I think must strike anyone who has the arduous duties of a Foreign Secretary at present is that, while not for a moment abating our determination to defend the independence of Malaysia or any other country with whom we have treaty obligations, the art of diplomacy must be used to buttress our resources and defence services at present.
These, then, are some of the problems which I in conjunction with my colleagues have to deal with all over the world. The very extent of our commitments makes it vital that our diplomacy should work hand in hand with our strength and our resources, the one supplementing the other. This combination of flexibility and strength has been the feature of our policy in the Far East, the Middle East, and the Eastern Mediterranean. In this way Britain is and will remain a great international Power, but we must be forever active and ready to undertake any mission that may be necessary in the cause of peace.
I ought to tell the House that Mr. Gromyko has extended an invitation to me on behalf of the Soviet Government to visit the Soviet Union. I look forward to going to Moscow for talks with him as my fellow co-Chairman and with Mr. Khrushchev some time around the beginning of the Summer Recess. So the House will realise that there will be no rest in our search for understanding. In that task and in the whole range of problems I have outlined we depend on the support of the House as a whole and the support of the British people, confident that the broad lines of British policy are national and should be and will be reinforced by the will and resolution of the House.
4.39 p.m.
Mr. Gordon Walker: I listened with very great interest to what the Foreign Secretary said. I do not think that it would be unfair to comment that he said very little new at a time when, as he pointed out, the world is changing, and landmarks with which we have become familiar are shifting, and we have to do a great deal of new thinking.
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I shall be taking up many of the points made by the right hon. Gentleman during the course of the remarks I intend to make, but there are a couple of things I should like to comment on now as they will not fit in to what I have to say later. I quite agree with him that the treaty between the Soviet Union and East Germany affects nothing whatever but merely seems to give Herr Ulbricht paper satisfaction. The impression with which we came back from Moscow on this matter is that Mr. Khrushchev does not want to stir up trouble over Berlin. He said that the building of the wall had made this problem much less acute from their point of view.
On the question of the Common Market, I think that the right hon. Gentleman transcended his own high-powered standards of ambiguity. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has asked, and he did so again a day or two ago, simple and clear questions on this matter. One is that the present Government should not commit us to new negotiations on the basis of the terms that were negotiated by the Secretary for Industry and Trade, and also that the Government should give us a clear statement that they will not agree to terms which would prejudice our trading relations with the Commonwealth. I hope that we shall have from the Prime Minister just enough plain speaking to give us plain answers to those very simple questions.
I do not think that ever in peace time have our forces been so widely committed in so many different parts of the world and so tightly stretched. One thing that all these activities have proved is the immense value to us of conventional weapons. I do not think that there is one single action in which we are involved in which the possession of nuclear weapons has had the slightest influence one way or the other, but these actions have certainly shown how gravely we are in need of better conventional weapons. In Malaysia, in Aden, for instance, our men are crying out for helicopters, equipment that they very badly need. We would be in a much better position today if we had laid out our defence expenditure differently.
I should like to say a word or two about one or two of the commitments and involvements that we

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are in. I think that it was absolutely right to go to the aid of India and Malaysia. We simply must face the need to carry out our obligations to Commonwealth countries when they ask us for aid and also to carry out operations of a peace-keeping nature which we are invited to participate in by the United Nations.
As to Aden, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has just come back from there, and if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, he will be able to talk with fresh knowledge about this problem. I want to say only a few words. As an Opposition we clearly do not, in the way that the Government do, know all the facts. We do not know, for instance, the range of aircraft and all the technical matters, but on our present information we think that it is right and desirable to keep the base in Aden. It is necessary to aid Commonwealth nations that ask us for our aid and to take part in peace-keeping operations. But any question of maintaining the base is at root, of course, a political question. We cannot, in the long run, hold any base anywhere against the opposition of the local population. That is a lesson that this country under the present Government has learned at the cost of hundreds of millions of pounds.
My own view is that if we wholeheartedly accept the will of the people of Aden as expressed in elections, it should not be too difficult to negotiate a freely accepted continuation of the base, which is of very great economic importance and some security importance to the people of Aden. But we would not succeed in doing this if, as it appears possible, it is the Government's intention to create a Federation in which undemocratic sheiks and emirs dominate a democratic Aden.
On Cyprus, I find the situation here extremely unsatisfactory—very grave indeed. Not only must the United Nations mandate be renewed, but, as the right hon. Gentleman implied, it must be very greatly strengthened, and we must not automatically commit our forces to a second term of service unless the mandate is properly strengthened. The United Nations forces must have the power and the weapons to restore and maintain order. We cannot allow the situation to go on in which British troops are
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humiliated and in which we are subjected to the kind of attack to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. The lives of British and other United Nations forces must be properly protected.
The sinister disappearance of Major Macey and Private Platt is yet another proof that there is no effective Government at all in the island. I am sure that I carry the House with me when I say that we regard the question of the disappearance of these two men as a matter of the highest gravity and that Archbishop Makarios would be extremely unwise to ignore our very strong feelings on this matter.
In any case, it seems to me that the British contingent is too large a proportion of the whole force. This tends to put us in a position in which we have responsibility without authority, and we must press very hard indeed for other United Nations forces from other countries to be sent to Cyprus so that we can run down or reduce our own contingent.
I made it clear yesterday, in exchanges at Question Time with the right hon. Gentleman, that we are not at all satisfied by the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to the treason trial in South Africa. The right hon. Gentleman himself made strong and proper statements of his views, but it is the public stand of the Government that is equivocal. The Guardian wrote today, and I wholly agree with it, that
"Wherever the worldwide revulsion against South Africa is made articulate, Britain's voice is the feeblest."
Can the Prime Minister, or someone else in this debate, explain to us why we refused to vote the other day at the United Nations because the matter was sub judice when, on a previous occasion when it was sub judice, we voted in favour of a similar resolution of the United Nations? We demand that the Government should, without equivocation, express the overwhelming abhorrence felt in this country about this trial, both at the United Nations and by representations to the South African Government that the sentences passed under a monstrous law should be remitted.
It is in the light of the general feeling of horror on this matter that I must come back to the question of the export of arms to South Africa. We should forthwith stop all exports of arms. We should

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go further, I think, and draw up a list, with our allies and, if possible, with other Powers, of strategic goods whose export to South Africa should be banned.
May I say a word about Laos. Here again, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East will be able to report freshly to the House. In Warsaw, Mr. Rapacki told me of the plan he was about to publish for the calling of the preliminary six-Power conference of which the right hon. Gentleman has told us. I am very glad that the Government are favourable to this. I told Mr. Rapacki that I thought it was a very valuable idea which we ought to back, although it must, I said, be a preliminary to a full 14-Power conference and not a substitute for it.
My right hon. Friend and I had fairly detailed talks about Laos with Mr. Khrushchev. Considerable differences of course, appeared about our analysis of the problem, the attribution of blame and on some immediate policies, but we agreed, after a good deal of discussion, that our general objectives seemed to be close. The Soviet Union unquestionably wants to maintain the Geneva conference settlement and it wants a neutralist Government in Laos, and—this was reiterated on a number of occasions with emphasis—under Souvanna Phouma. It seems to me that here is a favourable factor in this difficult situation.
There is one other point which I want to make which, in my view, is not sufficiently emphasised, namely, that China seems to be being extremely careful to avoid a direct confrontation with the United States of America. It is not, in fact, behaving in an imprudent, arrogant or dangerous way. It is behaving with considerable prudence. We for our part must strongly oppose any idea of taking the war to North Vietnam, which would risk the very confrontation which must be avoided.
The right hon. Gentleman said that all these and other events, difficulties and actions which will figure in the debate are occurring against a background of a world situation which is very rapidly changing and which, as the Foreign Secretary said, involves us and our allies, and indeed other alliances in the world, in very great challenges. It is clearly necessary to analyse these changes with very great care.
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It seems to me that the Prime Minister has been taking too simple a view of what is happening. He constantly repeats that the one new factor is that the Soviet Union has given up aggression as an instrument of policy. I think that that is true, and that it is important. But something more profound than that is happening of which it is only a part and which he never goes on to discuss.
What I think is the great fact today is that at Cuba both these super-nuclear Powers made the final discovery that we cannot use nuclear weapons because they are weapons of suicide. As Mr. Khrushchev said the other day, with his usual vigour, "If your reach for the push button you reach for suicide". This is a question of both Powers; it is not merely that the Soviet Union has taken aggression out of its instrument of policy.
This recognition by the two super-Powers has had the curious consequence of very greatly limiting their capacity for action. They now command too much power. They command weapons which are so destructive that they cannot be used, and they cannot get into positions in which the other Power might think that they might be drawn into using them. The direct corollary of that is that the liberty of action, even of military action, of the smaller Powers has been enhanced. When either of the great super-Powers is faced by these new kinds of independence, it is nonplussed, it is hamstrung, by the superfluity of its own power.
This relative shift—unexpected, I think, if we look back a year or two—in favour of the smaller Powers is having effects in the third world, in the neutralist developing world within each alliance, and, of course, upon the relations between the alliances. First, perhaps, I might look at our own alliance, N.A.T.O. We regard the Western Alliance and our alliance with the United States as the sheet anchor of our defence and foreign policy, but it must, of course, be adapted to the prevailing circumstances. This is one of the consequences of these very great changes which are occurring in the world. N.A.T.O. today is a very different kind of alliance from that which it was in 1949, when there was a war-shattered Europe. The whole internal balance is changing. There are many strains, of which the attitude of General de Gaulle is the most extreme symptom.

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The problem facing us is: how should we adapt N.A.T.O. to the new conditions of the world? I regard it as a very disturbing factor in the alliance that the United States is pushing its proposals for the multilateral force so very hard. This was, after all, originally intended and presented as designed to meet the need of the allies. Now it seems to be something which is going to be thrust upon the allies whether they want it or not.
I think that it is high time that the Government gave us an answer on this matter. They have had access to all the facts. They have had a very long time to consider the matter. The suspicion is inevitable that the reason they are not giving an answer is that they are frightened that they might split their own party because of the answer which they give. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am not saying that this is the fact. I am saying that the suspicion is bound to arise, because it is known that there are different views on this matter on the Government side of the House. The suspicion is bound to arise.
When we were in Moscow we made two points about the M.L.F. I said that as long as Soviet intermediate range ballistic missiles were trained on British and European cities, this was bound to encourage the forces in Europe which the Soviet Union most fear and to which we are opposed, namely, the forces which want the M.L.F. and even want an independent European deterrent. We also said that we do not oppose the M.L.F. on the ground that Germany would get a finger on the nuclear trigger. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the maintenance of the American veto with that of the other participating Powers would exclude this.
We are opposed to the M.L.F. on other grounds which we find overwhelmingly conclusive. It is, in our view, an elaborate pretence which will divide the alliance. Especially will it divide the alliance if there is any intention of going on with a purely American-German weapon. It will not long satisfy the appetite which it is designed to still and which it would itself stimulate—the appetite in Europe towards the desire for independent nuclear weapons. It will unquestionably make the negotiations on disarmament more difficult. It
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will divert expenditure in Europe from conventional to nuclear forces, and it will tend to consolidate the Eastern Alliance at the very time when there, too—and much more than in the West—ties are beginning to loosen.
But the problem which the M.L.F. seeks, in my view ineffectively, to solve is a real problem. We do need a greater real sharing in nuclear policy inside the alliance as a whole. This will not be easy to achieve, but if the United States gave as much thought to this as it is giving to the M.L.F., I have no doubt that some way could be worked out between, us which would give the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, and France when it wants it, a real share in the shaping and the control of nuclear policy in the alliance. I am sure that in the end this, and not a little pretence substitute for it like the M.L.F., is what we need; only this kind of reorganisation will maintain the vigour and unity of N.A.T.O.
Here, I should like to make a point of some seriousness. We are approaching two important elections, one in this country and one in the United States, which will overlap to a considerable extent. All of us must, of course, be extremely careful not to get mixed up in the American election, just as we do not want to get the Americans mixed up in ours, but I must say that any Conservative attempt to exploit any aspect of the United States election politically will cut both ways. There is already a tendency for some Conservative circles and newspapers to say, "Labour's defence policy involves dependence upon the United States. What would happen if a particular President were elected?"
What is said is not true, but it is a very dangerous argument indeed. What is the Government's policy on the Polaris submarine but to hand over control of our next nuclear weapon, as they plan it, to the United States? It would depend upon the United States' President and Congress for provision and maintenance, for new technical improvements, and for the replacement of the missiles which would be in the submarines. There could be no greater dependence upon the United States than the policy proposed by the Government.

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I say in all seriousness that we would be much wiser if we dropped this kind of argument between us, but if we are attacked we will counter-attack and we will not do either ourselves or the country much good and we will get involved in an American election. But, of course, if we are attacked, we will counter-attack. It would be much wiser if we kept out of this kind of argument. [Interruption.] We are perfectly happy to have it, if it is wanted, but if hon. Members think about this they will realise that it would not be a very wise argument to have.
The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): No one is thinking of using the kind of argument the right hon. Gentleman has used, but he started the argument by saying that he would get rid of our nuclear deterrent.
Mr. Gordon Walker: The right hon Gentleman's predecessors started it by saying that they would buy a weapon from the United States and be dependent upon the United States for it. This is an argument which cuts both ways, and we can have it out on the hustings; and we would enjoy it if we had to do it, because we have a very good argument, but we would sooner not do it.
Now I want to say a few words about the other alliance, which is in much graver difficulties than any difficulies we are facing in the West. As the Foreign Secretary said, the central issue is the Sino-Soviet dispute. I thought that Mr. Gromulka was right in the speech he made yesterday or the day before yesterday when he said that at root this is a struggle between two great Powers for hegemony inside the Communist world. I heard the same kind of analysis advanced in Roumania.
In my view, this split is deep and lasting, and it is having very many important effects. As I was told during my recent trip to Communist countries, one of the most important new factors is that neither China nor the Soviet Union can any longer rely on the automatic support of its lesser allies. A new national Communism is arising, and this is all the more disturbing because the Warsaw Pact was so closely dominated by the Soviet Union. The relaxations that come from this are all the more difficult for them.
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The position of Roumania, where I recently was, is particularly interesting and significant. It was lagging behind the other Warsaw Pact countries in this kind of development. It is now rapidly getting into the van. In Roumania, one constantly hears the word "sovereignty"; it comes in all the time. Indeed, it is figuring in the public polemic across the air that is now taking place between the Soviet Union and Roumania. I think that "sovereignty" used like this is a new word in the Communist vocabulary. At any rate, it was not a very commonly used one.
The main difference between the Soviet Union and Roumania is on the nature of COMECON. It is an issue about economic policy. The Soviet Union wants to turn COMECON into a kind of Common Market with majority voting, central organs, and all the rest of it. Roumania is using arguments which were only too familiar to us at the time when the Government wanted to take us into the Common Market. They say, "We do not want to become a province in another State. We do not want to hand over the control of our affairs to remote bureaucrats who are not answerable to us". Such arguments as these, which are extremely familiar to us, are being used.
Similar things are happening in all other parts of the Warsaw Pact, except East Germany. I have a feeling that Mr. Khrushchev is in some danger of having half a dozen General de Gaulles on his hands before very long.
We must conduct our own alliance policies, including our attitude to the M.L.F., and so on, with this kind of development in mind. There are great opportunities opening out for Britain to get closer relations with these Eastern European countries. I draw a distinction—I may say that I made it in all the capitals I was in—between East Germany and the other countries. I regard the other countries as being in a completely different category. East Germany is a puppet State which has to build a wall to keep its citizens in. The other countries are true nations, and one draws a true distinction between them and East Germany.
In regard to the rest of the Eastern European countries, we have great opportunities, but we must act with

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great prudence. Although I think that the Eastern bloc is significantly changing—indeed, I think that it would not be an exaggeration to say that it has changed from a bloc into an alliance—none the less, it is still an alliance to which its members attach very great value indeed, and it would be a fatal error on our part, or on the part of our allies, to try to seduce any country from this alliance through getting better relations with it.
However, I repeat that we have very great opportunities. I was a little sorry to notice the rather mocking tone, the almost gloating tone, in which the Foreign Secretary described the developments which are going on in the other alliance. I do not think that is the right kind of approach. Eastern European nations are, I think, more susceptible than ever to Western public opinion. I was very upset and surprised to find that we have not got a single British correspondent in Bucharest. We do not get news: we do not get ordinary bread and butter daily news coming out of these countries. It seems to me that our Press and our agencies should remedy this situation.
The chief form in which our ties are getting closer is in trade. They are much more willing to have trade with the West. The problem is not to sell them things, it is to buy things from them so that they have a balance of payments. We may here have to call in the help of the International Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and so on.
I would here like to ask a question about the stories of a negotiation for the sale of a British nuclear power station to Rumania. Was this vetoed here by the Government? When the same proposals were made to the United States, did they not look on them with considerable favour? If that is so, I should like to ask why we do not take rather more initiative in these matters and why we do not take as much right as the United States to propose, when it is proper, amendments to the embargo list. We are entitled to an answer on this. There has been a very great deal of talk about it, both in Rumania and in many other countries.
I think that there may be one very dangerous consequence of the Sino-Soviet dispute. The Foreign Secretary touched on this. This is the sharpened
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competition between them in the third world. It is already clear that Mr. Khrushchev, for instance, is talking much more toughly about a revolution in other parts of the world than he was a year or two ago. This is a very marked change. I think that they would be gravely tempted to competitive exploitation of any social unrest or revolution which occurred in Africa or Latin America.
This could involve us in very grave problems. I think that there are some things which we can do in this connection. Obviously, we must give the highest priority to aid to developing countries. We are grateful to the Secretary for Industry and Trade for the statement today on the United Nations Trade and Development Conference. It will take us a little time to work out exactly what has been achieved at the conference, but, clearly, the right hon. Gentleman played a very valuable and important part by his persistence in pursuing compromises, and we would like to congratulate him on that.
I think that we have to go further still and that it is, above all, necessary to get the relationships right. This seems to have improved at Geneva, but very often Western aid has poisoned instead of improved relations with the countries to which the aid has been given. We must increase and strengthen our contacts with and influence in Latin America. It seems to me that we are very lagging indeed there. We must do everything we possibly can to end the dangerous isolation of China, the isolation of China by both East and West, and render China more accountable to world opinion. It seems to me that the time has come when we must go forward and establish full diplomatic relations with China and do all we possibly can and use all our influence to gel China into the United Nations.
To conclude, I want to say that the supreme objective of foreign policy must be the achievement of disarmament. Since the Test Ban Treaty, the momentum which was then got has been lacking. The main purpose of the visit that my right hon. Friend and I paid to Moscow was to try and find out the next most promising line of advance to get the momentum going again. We, like the Foreign Secretary, support, and strongly argued in favour of, President Johnson's

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proposal for a freeze of nuclear delivery systems and a bonfire of bombers, but I must regretfully tell the House that the impression we both came back with was that the Soviet Union is not prepared to agree or even to negotiate about this. [An HON. MEMBER: "The freeze, or both?"] Much more the first, the freeze, than the bonfire; but I am only relating the impression with which we came back.
The most hopeful lines of advance seem, first, to be an anti-proliferation agreement, and I agree with the Foreign Secretary that it would be wise for the Soviet Union to sign such an agreement and then try to apply it to the M.L.F. That would certainly be sensible. Apart from the M.L.F., there appears to be a good possibility of an anti-proliferation agreement being reached.
I also think that there is a fair chance of an agreement on a variation of variant of the Gromulka plan for freezing nuclear weapons in an area of Europe. When we were there I told Mr. Rapacki that we welcomed this as a first step to a larger plan, but I pointed out that the area in the West could not be limited to West Germany, that it must be extended in the West and East and that the plan should apply to missiles as well as warheads, partly to get a better inspection system, but, also, that we wanted to attach to his proposal the idea of control posts against conventional surprise attack.
The most important hope of advance lies, I think, in the idea of a minimum deterrent. The Soviet Union seems to be genuinely interested in this and it would certainly open up very important prospects for an advance towards disarmament. We also discussed the possibility of an international agreement controlling the supply of arms to the Middle East, but I did not see that we were getting far with that, although we discussed it along with the possibility of a United Nations convention which would both ban the sale of private arms and involve the registration by States of any deliveries of arms they made to any country, making them public.
One other general impression we had was that the Soviet Union seems to be keen to preserve the improved atmosphere in East-West relations and not to disturb it.
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Although there are obviously many difficulties, possibly with setbacks ahead, I am not altogether unhopeful when I look into the future, for it is my considered opinion, after the talks we had and having thought a good deal about the subject, that when the British and United States elections are over there may be a real chance of a breakthrough in disarmament. That is a chance we must take, a chance we must not miss.
5.12 p.m.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I rise to make my maiden speech with a good deal of humility and trepidation. I would like, first, to pay a tribute to my predecessor, Sir William Aitken, who was popular and respected both in the House and in Bury St. Edmunds. The best tribute I can pay him is to do my utmost to serve the people of Bury St. Edmunds in the same way as he so successfully did for 12 years.
It is not easy for a newcomer to this House to follow such distinguished speakers as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker). I would like to draw attention to one issue where they showed agreement: that at the centre of affairs in the world there appears to be an improvement in the atmosphere between East and West, whereas on the circumference—in Malaysia, the Middle East and elsewhere—conditions have not so far improved as at the centre.
We are right to consider some of the reasons why the improvement at the centre is not matched on the circumference. It may be that the improvement we have noticed in East-West relations has arisen in large measure because the Western Alliance, particularly the United States and the United Kingdom, has stood shoulder to shoulder against Soviet aggression. One of the main reasons why that improvement has not been matched on the circumference is the U.S. and the United Kingdom are less well co-ordinated in their policies for such areas as Malaysia, the Middle East and elsewhere.
Why are Britain and America in some ways divergent on these subjects? The biggest factor is that there has

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been in the world, including in America, a very great change in the last 10 years—10 years which I have had the experience of living mainly in the U.S. On many subjects, from time to time we achieve a meeting of minds; the fact that I was able to serve for nearly 14 years as an editor of many large American publications is one small and humble illustration of the kind of special relationship on the person-to-person level that can and does exist between this country and the U.S.
But there are taking place in America today profound and important changes. One might illustrate them by speaking of America's having to face up to military vulnerability. Ten years ago in the United States it was possible to think of a strategy based on the "Fortress America" concept. At that time it was virtually impracticable for any foreign State even to consider an attack on the American heartland. That is no longer the case, and one of the most important psychological factors among the American population today is the gradually widening awareness that New York and Cheyenne, Wyoming are as vulnerable as Bury St. Edmunds and Newmarket. That is a fact which is greatly affecting thought and policy in the United States.
The second consideration of change worth considering is that the economic paramountcy of America, with which we were all glad to live 10 or 12 years ago, is no longer a fact of such obvious acceptance in the world at large. I remember only too well those days when not a week went by without some European Prime Minister flying across the Atlantic and virtually asking, "Brother, can you spare a dime?" Those days are no longer with us, and one of the other important factors in American psychology today is the fact that more and more American Ministers are flying to Europe to ask the rich banker nations on this side of the Atlantic for support for American economic policies; for example in the Alliance for Progress Plan. Along with these changes towards military vulnerability and the move away from economic paramountcy, there is in America a political altercation, the result in part of the racial difficulties in the Southern States. It is no longer easy for America to gain global acceptance of her strictures on the colonial policies of other countries.
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With these three changes in the American political body, there has been a reaction in Washington which has turned in two distinct directions. On the one hand, there is the reaction to the fact that the United States no longer is so easily able to achieve its objectives today, whether in Cuba or, as in the past, in Korea, or whether today in Vietnam. One recognises that the great power of the United States is not able so easily now to achieve the political purposes which Washington sets.
This has created among some Americans anger, frustration and anxiety, and it has led to some cases of very extremist views being expressed on one side of the American scene. We must recognise that one of the factors in the American scene—and the right hon. Member for Smethwick touched on this—is the emergence of a political sentiment which looks, rather nostalgically perhaps, for the possibility of using big stick policies in the world.
On the other hand, and much more wisely, there is in America a tendency to react to this new situation of dwindling power in a way that tries to come to terms with the new realities as they exist. I think one might associate the name of Senator William Fulbright with this attempt to bring American policy into reality with the facts of life today.
The object, surely, of British policy must be to ensure that the Fulbright side of American policy and not, if I may venture the name, the Goldwater side of that policy shall be uppermost in the conduct of American and Alliance policies. I therefore suggest with the greatest respect that if we want to achieve this there are three principles on which we might well found our policies towards America, and I say this with deep affection for the United States.
First, I believe, it is necessary that we must speak very plainly in Washington on behalf of British interests and if I may say so with the deepest respect, our present Prime Minister has done this. I should like to quote the words of a very senior member of the Johnson Administration after the Prime Minister's recent visit, when he said:
"The Prime Minister said to us the one thing of all things that we did not want to hear, namely, that Britain would continue for its own reasons to trade with Cuba. We did not like to hear this, but we respected him for saying it. We have taken it on the chin and we accept what he says."

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That is a quotation from a very senior member of the American Administration, and I think it shows that plain speaking to the Americans is something that they appreciate and that if we do more of it we shall be understood and appreciated for saying what we believe.
The second principle, I suggest, in our relations with America is that we should get much more mixed up together with them in our economics and technology. If I may say so in a speech which I hope is uncontroversial, I was on the second day of sitting in the House surprised to hear hon. and right hon. Members deploring the fact that a recent investment of American capital in the British motor industry was in some ways injurious to our interests. I have lived in the United States for many years, and I have been deeply conscious of the way in which British capital and technology have gone into the United States. I think I am right in saying that on private account we have something like 3,000 million dollars worth of shares in American industry and that on public account the British Government are very substantial investors and have done rather well from the American Stock Exchange boom.
It is worth noting that we own on Government account considerable shares in General Motors, in Eastman Kodak, and, I am very glad to say, that there is investment in at least one film studio and in one of the largest manufacturers of doughnuts. My point is simply this, that we should not conclude that because the British people like to watch American television or because hundreds of thousands of our teenagers wear blue jeans, or because the Americans come here and put their money into industry in this country, that this nation is becoming the 51st State of America. We should have more self-confidence than that.
I suggest that if the Alliance is to mean anything—and it is the heart of all our policies—it must involve the free flow back and forth of capital and technology, and, indeed, of scientists, too. That is what the Alliance must mean and not merely be an endless series of English-speaking dinners.
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The third and last of the principles that we should apply in our policies towards the United States is that we must retain sufficient power so that we enjoy the Americans' respect. I believe that, just as the Americans appreciate plain speaking, they also understand power. In the Anglo-American Alliance we must therefore have enough British power to deter an attack on our island and to ensure that we are not subjected to international blackmail: Above all, we must ensure that our voice is listened to in Washington.
It is possible to say many things in the United States, but it is not always easy to be heard, and the condition of being heard is that one retains that measure of power. We do not require to hold on to power for reasons of prestige or grandeur. We can leave that to General de Gaulle. We should retain this measure of power vis-à-vis the United States because we have something to say and because we have as a country something to offer. I believe that in the two areas mentioned by the Foreign Secretary earlier, both at the centre and on the circumference, that what Britain has to offer is something rather special.
At the centre, in the contest with the Soviet Union, I believe that it is the patience and the plodding, often in the face of great difficulties, of British Governments that enabled us gradually to bring together East and West in order to sign the Test Ban Treaty. So that if there is now an improvement in the international climate at the centre this Government can take a measure of credit for it. I believe, too, that on the circumference, whether it be in Malaysia, East Africa or elsewhere, this country has equally something to offer as we have seen in the actions of British troops in recent months and, indeed, years.
I would say that the problem that confronts us beyond the cold war is the problem of how to relate the poor world to the rich world and, somehow, to bridge the gulf which exists between the haves and have nots in the world. I think that this country, with its experience of having sent overseas for centuries men and women who have brought order where there was no order and law where there was no law, has something to offer.

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To conclude, I would reiterate the three or four things which are paramount if we are to refurbish the Anglo-American Alliance and make certain that it enables the security of the world to be maintained. The first is that we must have a hard, new look at it unsentimentally and with modernity. If we do this we can expect the Americans to do the same. We can hammer out some general policies so that whether it be in Malaysia or the Middle East we diverge less and share common priorities.
The second thing is that we must continue to talk straight and expect to be talked straight back to. The third is that we must get more mixed up together. I believe that in an age of jet aircraft and Telstar communication satellites it would be absurd to seek to limit, or to seek to stop, the great flood of capital and technology bringing the two sides of the Atlantic together. If we sought to do that we should be untrue to what has been the history of our country and to its future, too. Finally, it is essential that we maintain a measure of power in order that in the United States we can retain respect and maintain that working partnership which alone means a true alliance.
5.28 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: It is a great pleasure on behalf of the House to congratulate the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths), to whose maiden speech we have just listened. The command and the fluency of the hon. Gentleman would not have disgraced his late mouthpiece. We should, perhaps, commiserate with the Prime Minister on having a lost pen, though he may have gained a voice. I sincerely hope that we shall hear the hon. Gentleman very often, particularly on the subject which he has chosen of Anglo-American relations.
I found myself in agreement with a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman said. He came near to being controversial, though he did not specify what sort of power we were to retain in order to enable our voice to be heard most clearly in Washington. We should no doubt disagree as to the type. Again, I thought that he trod on dangerous ground when he recommended Government investment in. private companies. I noticed among the companies that he mentioned
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was not News Week, but I thought it a most admirable speech and one delivered with the greatest confidence and in a most agreeable manner.
The hon. Member thought that while international affairs had improved at the centre they had deteriorated at the periphery. I put the situation rather differently, It; seems to me that both the Communist and non-Communist worlds are now facing the same problems, and this, in itself, is encouraging. I believe that these problems are very largely connected with what we may call the breakup of the old Power structure or, as Mr. Kennan has called it, polycentrism; the decline of various empires, and the change of the structure of various sovereign Slates. We see this in Eastern Europe and in the Commonwealth—and across the Atlantic in the break-up of the Monroe doctrine.
This seems to me to be the new situation with which we must contend and towards which we must have new policies and new departures in our thinking. Unfortunately, we must face the fact that this change does not come about through any sudden, new-found, widespread belief in democracy, but has been brought about very largely by a rise in nationalism. Many of the current difficulties in foreign affairs are due to racialism, where they are not due to nationalism. If we are to contend with that sort of situation—the situation, for instance, in Cyprus, Malaysia and British Guiana, and, indeed, the situation that the Communists have in Eastern Europe—we must look at the whole structure of Government and international action.
To begin with, many of our problems are not soluble at all in terms of the old sovereign States, yet, as has been said, there is a demand for sovereignty in Eastern Europe and in Africa today. I do not think that the problem—of trying to control nuclear weapons, or the questions that lie behind the idea of the multilateral force, are soluble at all as long as we think of disparate sovereign States completely controlling their own affairs. In regard to the multilateral force, for instance, if we think in those terms, we come back to control, and we cannot get round the fact that someone has to press the button. If we think in terms of new groupings and a new spread of power, we shall be in accord with what is happening in the world.

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The growing distance between the rich and the poor countries is something to which the Prime Minister himself has constantly drawn attention, and it is certainly one of the most worrying features in the modern world. We shall not tackle that problem until the rich countries feel that they have an interest in sharing their wealth and, furthermore, feel that they share some sort of common citizenship with the poorer countries. Otherwise we are in exactly the same condition as most European countries were in the eighteenth century, when poverty was regarded as something to be treated by some sort of charity. Until we got the deliberate national policy of spreading wealth we never got the type of affluence we now have; that came about partly because people saw that it was in their own interest, and partly as a result of a fellow feeling for citizens of their own country. We do not have that feeling throughout the world, but the sooner we get it the better.
The particular difficulties that face us stem from the common difficulty that the world faces of the rise of nationalism, of the strife between different races, of the growth of new centres of power. We find that, historically, we have been left responsible for law and order and defence in certain places where it is now clear that the type of Government should be changed; where the reasons for our presence and the reasons why those places are governed as they are have completely changed.
For instance, we went to Southern Arabia to protect the route to India against pirates. This is no longer a reason for our presence there. Again, the situation in Africa, British Guiana and Malaysia has changed completely. Furthermore, these particular places are relics of imperialism. Their frontiers were drawn, not to accord with their own natural boundaries, but because of agreements between the various imperial Powers.
In this situation, what should be the first object of our policy? To my mind the object is clearly to enable a peaceful change to take place in these places. That is to say, our object should be to achieve change without leaving a vacuum into which other Powers will flow, possibly leading to a crisis. In the
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old days the world usually relied on war for change. War is now too dangerous a method of change, but we have not yet developed, either in the United Nations or elsewhere, any other method of change.
Our aim, for instance, in Southern Arabia or British Guiana is not simply to maintain the status quo. It is very revealing that a Conservative Secretary of State should himself say that our responsibilities in British Guiana are an embarrassment. It is very encouraging that it should be made absolutely clear that we are not in Cyprus to defend any imperial interests or to maintain things as they have been for the last 50 years, but that we are there to maintain peace and to try to find a solution to the problem—and not necessarily a solution on the old lines of the last 20 or 30 years.
The question then is: how are we to achieve orderly change without leaving a vacuum? One question that has so far not been touched on is on whom the responsibility lies. Is it the responsibility of the Foreign Office or is it the responsibility of the Commonwealth Relations Office to deal with this type of problem? There seems to me to be the strongest argument for at least having this made crystal clear, and, having read the debates on the subject, I would say that there are strong arguments in favour of combining the two Ministries into one. But we should be informed quite clearly whose responsibility it is.
Secondly, and here I follow the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds, we should have better co-operation between ourselves and our Allies. For instance, as the hon. Member mentioned, we have claimed our right to trade with Cuba, and we are sending lorries there. Now, there is a British firm, though it has a large American investment, which is talking of selling lorries to Indonesia. We do not know as yet what the Government's policy on this will be, but there is no doubt that the Indonesia-Malaysia war may drag on for a very long time. If it does, we must consult our Allies on how it is to be conducted, and it is extremely important that at the very outset we should be quite clear about this sort of question of how far we will trade with nations of which one or other Ally disapproves.

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We have had this question over long-term credits for Russia, and we may have it over the arrangements by which the Spaniards will have the know-how of our frigates. We have it over nuclear reactors in Roumania. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there should be the very closest consultation between the Allies on these matters. Furthermore, when dealing with Eastern Europe, it is most important that we should not appear to be competing with each other in encouraging satellite States to break away from Russia but should have a common policy towards Eastern Europe.
As I say, I do not believe that the troubles in the world, and I regret it in many ways, are due to any great upsurge of democracy. For instance, if we look at the Aden Peninsula, it is difficult to urge that we should have some sort of democratic system in the Federation. I find it very difficult to visualise a sort of Parliamentary system working there in the near future, though it may come in time.
Mr. William Yates: The right hon. Gentleman surely has been to Libya and knows that Libya was made independent in 1950 and has a democratically elected Federal Government.
Mr. Grimond: I feel it possible to have a type of régime in the South Arabian Federation which is more acceptable to the people there, but a great deal of the talk about it implies that the population are engaged in the same political controversies as we are engaged in and are concerned with the same political ideas and dogmas, which I very much doubt. I doubt very much whether the population are even appraised of the importance of the present war. Many of them are accustomed to sporadic fighting. War is more familiar to them than peace. We should not translate our methods of political controversy to other parts of the world where they have little relevance.
I should have thought that in the Aden Peninsula we have to look in the long run into the question whether we shall have to find some satisfactory heir to the old relations which we had with the sheikhs. I think that in the forseeable future the ideal is that there should be a growth of sensible pan-Arabism and that the Arab countries should be encouraged to get together.
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I have always thought that it is totally false for this country to set up in any way as the enemy of pan-Arabism. This may mean in the long run coming to terms with President Nasser. I do not approve of what President Nasser's planes are doing in the Yemen, nor what the Yemen Government are doing, but the old Yemini Government were not above reproach. They indulged in such things as flogging, public executions and slavery. Looking at it in any dispassionate terms, we must hope that that part of the world will become attached to its natural colleagues, the Arabs who live in the surrounding countries. No doubt we shall then be able to buy oil on a commercial basis.
More difficult is the question of the Aden base, because there we have responsibility to the United Nations and to the general peace-keeping functions of the Western nations. I do not believe, therefore, that we can give up the base, although in the long run we may be able to get some arrangement with the indigenous people for its maintenance, perhaps even under the United Nations.
In Cyprus, it seems to me that we must have some arrangement with the neighbouring countries which will relieve us of responsibility. In an article in the Guardian this morning an hon. Member suggests that Greece might take this responsibility. I do not feel that that is the only way. I think that we should exploit further some joint arrangements between Greece and Turkey, though it looks as though Greece must play the part in the long run. But Cyprus must find her place in some arrangement involving her neighbours.
On the subject of Cyprus, I should like to refer to the question already raised by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) about Major Macey and Driver Platt. Have we any further information about them? It is indeed a most unfortunate incident that they should disappear without trace and apparently without the Government of Cyprus being able to do anything to protect them or people who in future may be in the same position.
I should like to look now at a similar type of problem that faces Russia. The Observer published last Sunday an article by Mr. Kennan, with whom in general I

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agree, but I confess that in this article there was a certain amount of muddled and wishful thinking. I do not believe that what has happened in Eastern Europe is due to what the West has been doing to any considerable extent. Mr. Kennan himself has rather forgotten his own warning that the Russians and the Communists dislike us for what we are and not for what we do. There is truth in that. Further, Mr. Khrushchev, with all his virtues and his appreciation that there must be no nuclear war and his increased tolerance within Russia, is a Communist and has always made it clear that he believes in the domination of the Communist Party in whatever country it is in power. I cannot see any diminution in that belief.
Furthermore, I do not believe that we shall have any great effect upon the Russians by loosening our own alliances. On the contrary, I think that the movement towards unity in Europe was one of the things which impressed the satellites in Eastern Europe. In that context, too, I do not think that Mr. Kennan appreciates the changes which have taken place in European countries. Mr. Monet's group has put forward proposals for making an approach to the satellite countries. There is a notable change in German thinking. While in the days of Dr. Adenauer any approach to Eastern Germany was regarded with extreme suspicion we now have the situation in which Dr. Erhard, who has been travelling in Europe and America, is urging that we should keep together to make some approach.
The time has come when it is possible that we can bring in West Germany itself into an approach, and when there will be no question of going over the head of West Germany to Moscow but a question of getting West Germany to put forward proposals to lessen tension between Eastern and Western Germany. There are signs that a crisis may be brought about by an attempt by the East Germans to improve their position. This would put a great strain on West Germans. They would be under extreme temptation to go in and help, and this might lead to a disastrous form of war.
Our own attitude to these changes in Eastern Europe—to the demand, for instance, of the Rumanians that they
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should not be under the industrial orders of Russia—should be that we should take advantage of this to increase trade and tourism and to infiltrate ideas of justice and liberty. But we should not take advantage of this either to increase the tensions of the cold war or, indeed, to subvert their Government. If we did that, we might solidify the position in Eastern Europe, which is the last thing that we should do.
I agree with Mr. Kennan and with Senator Fulbright that it is extremely wrong to regard all manifestations of Communism as an equal menace to us. There are many varieties of Communism, and not only Russian and Chinese. There is the Yugoslav variety, and every country is developing its own variety. We should try to infiltrate into them reasonable ideas of liberty and justice and impress upon them that we, too, have many of their problems and that we are anxious to help and not to hinder them in their solution. I am sure that this would be the right policy for the West, and I believe that we can take a more positive initiative about it, but we should delude ourselves if we thought that we could achieve quick results.
When Mr. Kennan warns us that we have offended many people in our own Empire by failing to understand their aspirations and he equates this with what we may be doing in Eastern Europe, I cannot follow him. I do not believe that people in Eastern Europe are likely to blame us for their condition, nor do I believe that they would have any justification for doing so. I feel that there may now be a chance of getting into touch with them, but we should be clear that we do not simply want to encourage nationalism or make mischief within the Eastern bloc. What we want to do is encourage in the different countries of the Eastern bloc the growth of the same values as we try to pursue in the Western bloc. Just as I believe that this should be done in consultation among Allies, particularly, of course, consultation with our American Allies, so do I believe that it is on this sort of approach to world affairs that our prestige should rely.
I do not deny that the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds may be right in saying that we can talk to the Americans because we have a certain amount of power. To end on a controversial note,

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I believe that the sort of power which we ought to apply is political power and conventional arms. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the sort of power which enhances our prestige with the Americans is nuclear, then I say that he is wrong.
5.50 p.m.
Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe: I am delighted to follow the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) in the very generous and wholly deserved tribute which he paid to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) on his quite admirable maiden speech. Everyone on both sides of the House, I am sure, greatly enjoyed it. Speaking for myself and, I feel, for a good many other hon. Members who have been in the House some time, I found my hon. Friend's clarity of expression and felicity of phrase causing a good deal of envy in my breast. The whole House will look forward eagerly to hearing speeches of equal quality from my hon. Friend in the near future.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) once again tried to imply that the proportions in our defence expenditure had gone wrong. He implied that the Labour Party would spend more on the conventional and less on the nuclear. This was roughly the line of argument followed also by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland in his concluding remarks. I have not looked up the figures lately, but my recollection is that about 10 per cent. of our defence expenditure goes on the nuclear and about 90 per cent. goes on the conventional arm. I shall be corrected if I am wrong, no doubt.
I am sure that if we now have a world which is firm at the centre, in the middle of Europe, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said, this is because we have spent 10 per cent. of our defence expenditure on the nuclear weapon. If it had not been for that 10 per cent., there would be no firmness at the centre. If it had not been for that 10 per cent., there would probably have been no nuclear test ban treaty.
If the Opposition intend to spend less on the nuclear and more on the conventional weapon, this suggests to me
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that they are very close to playing with the idea, if not actually proposing it, that it would be a good thing to reintroduce conscription. Is that what they mean? The House and the country would like to be told before the end of this debate whether that is what they have in mind.
Rather obliquely, I thought, the right hon. Gentleman also alleged that we on this side of the House would follow the party opposite in proposing to abandon the nuclear deterrent. We propose to do no such thing. It is not who manufactures the deterrent that matters. What matters is who controls it. This was a mistake which the right hon. Gentleman ought to have known better than to make.
The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion in relation to South Africa was quite surprising. All of us in the House are deeply concerned about the events at the Mandela trial. There is no one in the House, wherever he sits, who does not deplore the system of apartheid, both on moral grounds and on every other ground, and who does not deplore what happened at that trial. But I thought I heard the right hon. Gentleman suggest that we ought to consider applying to South Africa a strategic list. I do not think that I misheard him. The prospect of sharing a strategic list, as he suggested, with allies—presumably, in this context, this would mean the Soviet Union—would be quite interesting. If this is really what the right hon. Gentleman is asking for, what it amounts to, in a slightly shaded form—I am not using the word "shady"—is economic sanctions.
The purpose of a gesture of this kind, whether it be called limited economic sanctions or the imposition of a strategic list, would be to bring about a political objective, namely, to ameliorate or liberalise, whatever one calls it, the policy of apartheid in South Africa and to try to secure better conditions and less discrimination against the coloured peoples of South Africa. That would be the object of the exercise, of course. Does anyone seriously imagine that the application of a strategic list upon South Africa, in conjunction with allies, is likely to achieve that result? Is it likely to make the South African Government more liberal? Is it likely to

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persuade them to be less tough in applying the policy of apartheid?
Limited economic sanctions are a very dangerous weapon. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman looks so startled. Just before he returned to the Chamber, I was saying—I have no wish to misrepresent him—that I understood him to be asking that the Government should consider applying a strategic list of goods to South Africa—in conjunction with allies—I think that that was the phrase he used—as a kind of political weapon to apply pressure against the policy of apartheid. That is what I thought he said. If he did not, I withdraw it. I went on to say that this is really, in one form or another, economic sanctions.
Mr. Gordon Walker: I conceive of this simply as an extension or completion of an arms embargo, as, indeed, is the embargo list upon exports to Communist countries. It is merely an extension of the arms embargo. It is not in any sense an economic boycott.
Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: It is not in the same category as an arms embargo, nor is it applied for the same purpose. The object is quite different. Before the right hon. Gentleman returned, I was saying that I thought that a policy of that kind would be unlikely to achieve the desired result. It would be more likely to irritate the South African Government rather than otherwise, and I do not for a moment think that the best interests of the coloured population, the Africans themselves, would be best served in that way.
I remind the House that very limited economic sanctions applied against Italy at the time of the Abyssinian war converted that war from a thoroughly unpopular venture in Italy into a national challenge. According to my recollection, the party opposite broke off diplomatic relations with Spain, as a gesture, shortly after they came to power in 1945. Did that make the Franco régime any more liberal?
Moreover, if one wishes to follow that sort of line, one must apply it universally, without discrimination. If one proposes to take a moral line of that sort, one cannot apply it in the places where one thinks one will get away with
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it and not apply it in those where one thinks one will not. Does anyone suggest that we ought to restrict, diminish or cut off economic aid to Nyasaland because nine Jehovah's Witnesses were murdered for the crime of not voting for Dr. Banda? Where does one stop? If this is the line which the Opposition intend to take about South Africa, I beg them to realise that there must be some co-ordination between the head and the heart.
I turn now to the subject of Cyprus. Here, up to a point, I agree with a good deal that the right hon. Gentleman said. The situation in Cyprus is very bad. If it deteriorates further, it will have immeasurable repercussions. We have counselled moderation upon the Turks, and the Turks have accepted our advice. This, to my mind, imposes upon both us and the Americans a very heavy moral obligation to ensure that Turkish vital interests are not penalised by reason of the restraint they have shown.
What has happened? Is the United Nations force in Cyprus holding the ring, pending negotiations? I do not think it is. As I see it—I may be wrong—the United Nations force has been an almost passive witness of the gradual erosion of the whole Turkish position step by step, and in this process British troops have unwillingly been participants.
I agree with what has been said on both sides of the House already, that the House and country owe an immense debt to the British troops for the restraint, good humour, discipline and courage which they have shown, but I think they have been absolutely disgracefully treated by President Makarios. They have been asked to operate in circumstances which are deplorable and humiliating. When we get to the stage where a British officer and his driver, both attached to the United Nations force, are simply kidnapped and disappear into thin air and nobody can find them—largely, I suspect, because the United Nations force, as the right hon. Gentleman said, has not the power of search—this is something which even Gilbert and Sullivan never conceived.
When the Cyprus crisis broke out, it was the Labour Party which was rather

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critical of the Government for not seeking straight away a United Nations solution. I wonder whether hon. Members opposite think like that now. When the crisis broke out, speed was the essence of everything and Britain alone could act speedily. We had troops on the spot and troops which could be moved quickly, and moved quickly they were, to the credit of the Government. I believe that if they had not been moved quickly into the area it is likely that there would have been a war between Greece and Turkey.
Moreover, we were perfectly entitled to act on our own both as a signatory of the original Zurich Agreement and as a N.A.T.O. Power. But Archbishop Makarios did not want speedy action. He wanted delay, and if delay was his essential ally, naturally, a United Nations force was his essential weapon. Inevitably in the assembly of a United Nations force weeks would have to elapse before the troops of the various nations could be got together from the four winds of heaven and put down in Cyprus, and even after the lapse of a number of weeks they were operational only because of the facilities we offered them from the British base.
Once the United Nations force was assembled with the British element in it, the Labour Party began expressing all sorts of anxieties. It must have been obvious that uncertainties would be bound to arise directly there was a United Nations force. Of course they would. The Labour Party asked "Were the orders clear?", "Who was in command?", and "Could the British troops defend themselves and, if so, under what circumstances?" The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) went so far as to suggest that heavy tanks should be used to dismantle road blocks and strongpoints—a very sensible suggestion, too. But the trouble with a United Nations force—let us be frank for this is inherent in the origin and composition of a United Nations force—is that it has never dismantled a strongpoint or a roadblock either in the physical, literal sense or in the metaphorical sense if that strongpoint or roadblock has been erected by a majority. No minority has much to hope for from the United Nations today, unless the minority has a propaganda value of
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an anti-colonial nature within the ambit of the General Assembly.
I invite the House to contrast the immense pressure which we and the United States and, to a lesser extent, the Secretary-General rightly put on the Turks not to land troops, though, as a matter of fact, under the original treaty they were entitled to do so to protect their own minority—that pressure has, happily, been successful—with the comparable lack of pressure applied to Archbishop Makarios not to proceed with conscription or to buy heavy equipment, which he is not entitled to do. The truth is that the United Nations, to put it quite frankly, is being taken for a ride by Archbishop Makarios, the Prime Minister of a newly independent Commonwealth country which would be bankrupt within a month but for the revenue accruing from the British base and the subventions from Her Majesty's Government.
This cannot go on. I am sure that all hon. Members will agree that some solution in the form of a rather more practical method must be reached fairly soon. The trouble is how to get a solution. I agree that the original Zurich Agreement has stood no chance of lasting very long. But various other solutions are being canvassed in the Press and elsewhere. One is the solution of partition. I do not think that Cyprus is a very easy place to partition. One would have to swap the population about a good deal. I also believe that if in the present heat we attempted a serious partition of Cyprus, quite apart from the physical and economic difficulties, we should have to have a kind of permanent Gaza strip right along the frontiers on the island.
A second solution which is discussed is called double Enosis. If I understand the term, it is another form of partition. There would be the Greek portion of the island belonging to Greece and the Turkish portion belonging to Turkey, so that we should have an international frontier running down the island. I do not know whether that is feasible. I should have thought it very difficult for the same reason as before.
The third solution put forward appears to be to hand the whole island over to Greece—which is single Enosis

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—and compensate the Turks territorially elsewhere. I do not know whether anybody could tell me where else they could be put. What other islands are there in the same strategic position as Cyprus? If they are to be compensated on the mainland, it would mean giving them a large slice of Thrace.
All these solutions which are being mooted really involve a transfer of population in one form or another, particularly the last solution—a transfer of population on something like the 1922 scale. That in itself is a kind of major surgical operation. One can do a surgical operation on a patient when his temperature is normal, but it is much more dangerous to do it when the patient's temperature is 104°F. I hope that the foresight and skill of my right hon. Friend and his colleagues in N.A.T.O. and elsewhere will lead them to appreciate the urgency of the problem.
To end, I very much hope that the British Government will not be party to a settlement which does not commend itself to the Turkish Government and take into account the vital Turkish interests. This is not a simple minority problem. There is a very considerable historical, geographical and strategic element in it. The Turks are very staunch allies in both N.A.T.O. and CENTO, and if they were to feel that some solution was being bandied about which did not take into account Turkish vital interests and that they were being let down by their two major allies in N.A.T.O., America and Britain, the effect on Turkey would be very bad indeed, with a consequent effect which would be even worse in both N.A.T.O. and CENTO.
Mr. A. Woodburn: I have listened with interest to the hon. Gentleman's analysis of the situation and his very clear elimination of all the solutions that have been proposed to the problem of Cyprus. I was looking forward to the moment when he would suggest that was the solution. Now that he has rejected all those alternative solutions, has he any idea what the real solution is?
Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: What I said was that I hoped that no solution would be seriously considered which did not
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commend itself to the Turkish Government and take into account vital Turkish interests.
Mr. Woodburn: We all want that.
6.9 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Henderson: I find myself in partial agreement with what the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) has just said about the functions of the United Nations peace force in Cyprus. I think we are all anxious, certainly if the British contingent is to remain, that the powers conferred upon the force should be strengthened and that it should have the right to move road blocks, disarm irregulars and so on. But I strongly disagree with his criticism of the United Nations.
I think that that criticism was untrue. The hon. Gentleman adduced no evidence to support his charge that the peace-keeping force had given all its aid and its favours to the Greek Cypriots at the expense of the Turkish Cypriot minority. According to information I have had, that is not so. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman felt it necessary to criticise the United Nations in this way.
Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I said nothing of the sort. I said that the U.N. force was almost a passive witness of a process of erosion of the Turkish position.
Mr. Henderson: If the hon. Gentleman looks at HANSARD tomorrow he will find that he made the statement that the Turkish minority had little to thank the U.N. peace force for during the time it has been in the island.
The hon. Gentleman also challenged the Opposition about the nuclear deterrent. Time and again we have tried to make our policy clear, but the more we speak about it the more the Government ask what we mean. We put forward the proposal that in course of time, after the R.A.F. bomber squadrons have run down—which will be some years from now—rather than build up an alternative nuclear force, whether with Polaris or the TSR2, we should concentrate our efforts on building up our conventional Forces.
The hon. Gentleman suggested that this means that we shall have to reintroduce conscription. Nothing of the

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kind. We would seek to build up the qualitative efficiency and fire-power of our Forces and that does not necessarily mean that there would have to be a great increase in personnel. The mere fact that we would make our conventional Forces more efficient does not indicate that we should have to ask the country to accept conscription again.
Why do we take this position? The Prime Minister knows the answer as well as I do. I have had the opportunities to acquaint myself with the huge air power of the United States. I have visited Cape Kennedy and have seen a great deal of U.S. strength. There is no doubt that the U.S. today is in possession of nuclear striking power sufficient to kill humanity two or three times over. In the position that will arise in a few years' time, there is no reason why we should not leave that responsibility to the United States.
If we persist in maintaining our nuclear deterrent there is no reason why France, Germany, Italy and a dozen other countries should not say, "If Britain has the nuclear deterrent we should also have it." As we want to stop proliferation of nuclear weapons, that is our second reason for taking up this position.
Mr. Julian Critchley: If the Opposition are so keen to stop the diffusion of nuclear weapons, especially to Germany, why do not they support the M.L.F.?
Mr. Henderson: Because it seems a most unfortunate policy to follow during the sittings of a disarmament conference. What is the point, at a time when we are seeking to reduce armaments, of building up another force of this kind? I am not aiming my fire at Germany alone. I say that no other country need have nuclear weapons provided that the U.S., on the one hand, and the Soviet Union on the other maintain the stalemate which exists at present in nuclear forces
The Foreign Secretary has now left the House, but I am glad that the Prime Minister has remained. I listened to the Foreign Secretary with great interest and I must confess that I had a measure of concurrence with some of the things he said. But I was disappointed at his throwing over of the Prime Minister.
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In March, 1961, the Prime Minister, as Foreign Secretary, made a speech which I have quoted many times since. I thought that it was a very constructive suggestion. He said that in his view the American and Soviet disarmament plans might be amalgamated into what he called a master plan. I thought it a very good idea and I hope that the Prime Minister will not throw it over.
The Prime Minister: My idea of a master plan is not one which automatically takes a half-way house between the Russians and the Americans, which is what the Socialist plan would do.
Mr. Henderson: I would agree with the Prime Minister in talking about a "half-way house", but surely the position is that, if the Soviet Union and the United States each put forward a plan, two plans are in existence. Neither the Soviet Government nor the U.S. Government will give up their plan. Therefore, if we are to break the deadlock we must get a third plan. I do not mind changing the term "master plan" to "third plan".
I ask the Prime Minister whether the Government have provided a third plan. If not, it is time they did. I am realistic enough to know that, during the next six months, there is little likelihood of any substantial progress in disarmament, but I see no objection to producing, even if only as a basis of discussion, a third plan or a master plan which would, in due course, break the deadlock existing today.
I realise only too well—we must all accept it—that the world problems are complex and complicated. The picture is more sombre than for some time. I do not think I am exaggerating in suggesting that the world is a simmering cauldron of violence and fear. This to me only intensifies the urgency of the problem of disarmament and, even though we may have to wait until after the elections in the United States and Britain, I still regret that the Government have not shown the initiative that they might have done in producing a third plan.
I said that I thought the world was faced with many complex and complicated problems. One of the most difficult is the apartheid policy in South Africa, manifested in the recent trials that have outraged the conscience of the

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world. The South African Government appear to take the view that they are covered by Article 2(7) of the United Nations Charter which provides that the U.N. shall not
"intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any country."
I do not believe that the fathers of the Charter, in drafting that provision, ever contemplated that it would allow any nation to carry out a policy which breached the principles of the Charter itself—a Charter which seeks to protect human rights and the fundamental liberties of every individual, irrespective of race, creed or colour. Therefore, I do not believe that the South African Government should be allowed to interpret Article 2(7) to exclude consideration by the United Nations of this line of conduct which outrages the conscience of the world.
At the Security Council yesterday, there was a debate on the proposal to impose economic sanctions against South Africa. Sir Patrick Dean, our representative, expressed our Government's doubts as to the advisability of such a policy. I share those doubts. I do not think that the way to handle this problem is to embark upon a policy of economic sanctions which would bring misery, unhappiness and suffering to millions of innocent people and which would have behind it the sanction of force. Having said that, I am sorry that our representative at the Security Council did not put forward alternative proposals, which merit attention and which come within what are called the peaceful settlement clauses of the Charter.
Why could not the Government have proposed, under Article 34, which authorises the United Nations to carry out an inquiry into any situation which threatens international peace, that the United Nations send a mission of inquiry to South Africa to make this investigation? Under Article 36, the Security Council would then have power to recommend to the Government of South Africa necessary adjustments in its policy. If I am told that there is no means of compelling the South African Government to respond, I refer the House to Article 6, which permits the expulsion of any country which is acting in contravention of the purposes and principles of the Charter. I should have thought that sustained
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moral pressure on those lines might eventually cause a change of mind and heart among the South African people and might well have brought about the change to which Sir Patrick Dean referred yesterday.
I should now like to deal with the position in the Middle East. In reply to a question put to him yesterday, the Foreign Secretary said that the Tripartite Declaration of 1951 was still in force although, as he put it, it was inactive. I wonder whether that is so. Since the Suez campaign, the 1951 declaration has become very much less effective. The situation has changed considerably and I do not believe that the three Governments concerned would in any event operate the Declaration if there were an emergency in the Middle East.
Mr. W. Yates: President Kennedy made a statement to Congress saying that the Tripartite Declaration was operative for the United States.
Mr. Henderson: Let me be fair; the Foreign Secretary did not repudiate the Declaration but merely said that it was inactive. Of course it is inactive, because the situation with which it was intended to deal does not exist. I am not saying that it is not legally binding, but I very much doubt whether it is the political instrument which it was considered to be five or 10 years ago.
After all, we all know that the Egyptians have received powerful armaments—submarines, aircraft and tanks—and have the services of many German scientists who, we are told, are developing and may be producing forms of rocketry. The balance of armaments to which the Declaration refers has become very much an imbalance. I do not mix in Israeli Government circles, so I do not know what Israel has been able to secure as a counter-balance to what Egypt has secured from Russia and Czechoslovakia.
Mr. W. Yates: Israel has the finest of the three armoured divisions available in the Middle East and has a reactor on which French scientists are working.
Mr. Henderson: I have seen, perhaps more than the hon. Gentleman, something of the Israeli forces and I am not worried about what would happen if there were an invasion of Israel by any of the

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forces which the Arab countries could put forward. But an arms race is going on in the Middle East and we do not know to what it will lead. Do we believe that the Arab countries will be able to drive 2 million Israelis into the sea? Of course they will not be able to do so.
I suggest to the Prime Minister, amplifying what my right hon. Friend said earlier, that we should propose to the Governments of the United States, France and the Soviet Union that the four Governments should enter into an agreement for the regulation and control of arms supplies to all the countries of the Middle East, coupled with a declaration, similar to that of 1951, that the four countries would do their utmost to safeguard the peace of the Middle East by siding with any country attacked by the other side. If that were possible, the problems of refugees, water supplies and even boundaries could be discussed in an atmosphere very different from that now existing. I ask the Prime Minister to give this proposal his serious consideration.
My final comment is that the racial conflict, which is causing so much trouble in various parts of the world, is not the main threat to world peace and world stability. Yesterday, the Prime Minister himself put his finger on what many of us believe to be the major problem. It is that the world is divided into haves and have-nots, two-thirds have-nots and one-third haves. The extraordinary thing is that the more we do to help the have-nots, the greater the difference there is in the standards of living of the two-thirds as against the one-third.
In this changing world, this is a situation which cannot endure indefinitely, and I wonder whether this will not be one of the major topics at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. I believe that the British Commonwealth of Nations has a great contribution to make in the affairs of the world, not only in the maintenance of world peace and not only in the cause of disarmament but in this great constructive crusade to raise the standard of living of 2,000 million people who are today living on the margin of misery, poverty and subsistence. On this aspect of the debate I wish Godspeed to the Prime Minister in the conference which is to take place next month. Let us
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hope that the Commonwealth countries will agree to lead this great crusade in favour of world social and economic justice.
6.30 p.m.
Viscount Lambton: Listening to many of the able speeches which have been made this afternoon, one is reminded of agents for Cooks, because one speaker after another has gone round the world from one country to another, and looking at my speech I find that out of necessity I shall have to do very much the same.
In his last great speech at Gettysburg shortly before his death Abraham Lincoln said:
"We are engaged in a great Civil War, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure."
Those words are very applicable today, for the whole world is now engaged in a great struggle, and the Western world is deciding whether its system, which is conceived in freedom and so dedicated, can long endure. The world has changed quite immeasurably in the last 100 years, and science has made every country each other's neighbour. The Western world is now challenged by that portion of it which believes in totalitarianism and the denial of free thought and action.
I would have thought that such a challenge would have united ourselves and our allies and caused us in this last decade to have had at least a measure of agreement on foreign policy. But such has not been the case, and although the differences which have divided the Western world have been the splitting of hairs compared with the differences which has separated us from the Communist bloc, during the last 10 years we have never ceased to divide and bicker amongst ourselves.
The question which I should like to ask this afternoon is whether that can be changed; whether we can get some greater unity. In a way, I think that things are more hopeful now than they were, for 12 years ago the Western world was faced by China and Russia who were engaged in promoting identical policies by every method except a worldwide war. That is not now the case, and there exists a deep bitterness between them. Yet deep as that rift is, it has

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never caused either country to turn actively towards the free world or to abandon schemes and the instigation of petty wars for the destruction of the Western world.
It means that at the moment we have to face two underground enemies, China and Russia, both determined on our overthrow and on the political conquest of the new and inexperienced countries. Surely in a sense their division is our opportunity, and we should take advantage of it by achieving now a unified Western policy which would not only check the advance of Communism, but cause its retreat.
As I have said, the world is divided into two power camps, those who believe in individual freedom and those who do not. But there is also the third bloc of multitudinous new nations, many of whom are uncommitted, and who will be the future battleground of the world, for many of them are little more than vacuums which cannot stand on their own and which will, inevitably, under the force of economic circumstances, have to throw in their lot with one side or the other. It is, therefore, all the more important that we should face this opportunity united and not divided.
Of course, there are many difficulties in the way of establishing a common Western policy. Indeed, while countries retain their individuality it will probably never be possible. This in itself may be desirable, but surely it is not necessary that there should be such disarray as there has been in the past. If we look at our Western bloc at the moment, we can find hardly any joint purpose which is shared by France and the United States while, as the right hon. Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) said, Turkey and Greece are nearly on the verge of a war. As there is this unnecessary division in Europe and among our allies, ought not Britain and the United States to make some attempt to establish at any rate a measure of a common policy and achieve or set in motion the machinery which might enable the two countries to have one?
That would be an advantage to both sides, for while the United States is the
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greatest Power in the world, and a country to whom we all owe our survival, this country still has many great links and associations with the emergent nations. If we could establish closer consultation, contact, and purpose between ourselves and America, it would not only be to our advantage, but would be an example to Europe and would illustrate the value of close cooperation.
Curiously enough, I believe that our chances of achieving a joint policy with America are better now than they have ever been, for in the past, despite everything that was good in it, the very nature of British Empire was antipathetic to American idealism, and was something which America, despite her own interests, found that it could never justify or support wholeheartedly. But we must be frank with ourselves and admit that the British Empire no longer exists. The challenge that faces us today is whether we can get what comes after it allied with the Western nations. Therefore, surely it is worth while making an attempt to see whether Britain and America can cease frustrating one another, as we are doing in certain parts of the world, or, equally bad for our own interests, damning each other with faint praise.
I would argue that now is the time when we should try to do this, and what I should like to try to do this afternoon is to examine those parts of the world where we are contradicting each other, where America has cause for complaint and where we have cause for complaint, and where it is possible to bring to an end the disunity which exists.
I should like to begin by referring to our position in the Far East, to which my right hon. Friend referred this afternoon. It is common knowledge that for many years our trade with China has annoyed America. It is possible to argue that we are right and that they are wrong, but at the same time it is important to look at the whole Far Eastern scene as one problem and not as a series of problems.
If we do that, we can see that America is very nearly at war with Vietnam and Laos. She clearly believes that unless she proves her determination to fight, and is indeed prepared to do so, the

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whole of old French Indo-China would come under the Communist sway, and that Thailand would follow, which would leave the Malaysian Federation, which we have built up, like a nut between the pincers of Indonesia and China. Therefore, whether one likes it or not, if one analyses the situation, the fact is that we are engaged in commercially helping a country with which America is on the verge of war.
Before making any comment on that, let us look at what is happening further south in Indonesia. The main purpose of Indonesian foreign policy at the moment, as outlined again and again by President Sukarno, and as carried out by warlike threats and warlike action in Borneo, is the destruction of the Malaysian Federation—the preservation of which is one of the main justifications for American intervention in Vietnam.
At the moment Indonesia receives a certain amount of economic aid from the United States. In the past it has received a great deal. Only a few months ago Mr. Robert Kennedy, the American Attorney-General, came here after visiting Indonesia and argued that the problem out there should be settled by the Asiatic nations alone. Fortunately he appeared later to change his mind. Nevertheless, the visit was made. President Sukarno received encouragement, and he will continue to do so because he continues to receive American aid. This must blunt his belief that he is faced by a united West.
So it is clear that in the Far East Britain and America are spending huge sums of money attempting to stop the advance of Communism and, at the moment, America is on the verge of war with China, with whom we are building up trade, and we are engaged in a guerrilla war against Indonesia, which still receives friendly aid and diplomatic visits from America. Were it not so serious, the contraditions of the situation would be laughable. Judging the matter from any angle, it is difficult to see how either of us is actively helping the other. Each is carrying out policies which makes the task of the other more difficult. Thus, even in an area of joint interests, the two countries at the moment have no unity of purpose or common policy.
I turn from the huge area of the Far East to the much more limited zone of
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Cuba. Here again, there is disagreement between ourselves and America. America believes that Cuba should be subjected to a complete economic blockade, and that America's allies should join her in carrying out this blockade. We do not agree with this view, and we are continuing to trade with Cuba. Once again, the question arises whether it is wise to frustrate American policy in spheres vital to her for a limited advantage to ourselves.
Let me carry the argument further and consider another country where our aims appear to differ from those of America—British Guiana. There we have the phenomenon of a desire on the part of the United States for the continuation of British colonial rule, the reason being, that, if we leave, there will be a chaotic vacuum in that part of the world. America believes—and she has good reason to do so—that this would result in the Communists establishing a foothold on the South American continent. Despite this, we have been pushing on independence, and in the last year it has seemed almost as if we have been trying to get our own back on the Americans for hurrying us on elsewhere. It previously seemed doubtful whether the British Guiana constitution could succeed, and the present crisis suggests that it will not.
Once again, should not we consider falling in with American opinion, despite the difficulties which that course will inevitably bring, if, in return, the United States are prepared to fall in with our wishes in other parts of the world? Might not we consider the world situation as a whole and of our confrontation with the whole Communist world?
Having dealt with three areas which are of vital importance to American policy and in respect of which they believe we should align our policy with theirs and where no alignment whatever exists at present, I now turn to a part of the world which is of vital importance to us and where we appear to be receiving less than absolute American cooperation or support. I refer to the Middle East.
There is often a danger of hon. Members—especially on this side of the House—regarding the Middle East as an area of permanent importance. It may

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well be that if the reserves of natural gas under the North Sea fulfil their promise the importance of the Middle East will be greatly diminished. But that is something for the future; all that we can say at the moment is that the oil reserves there are of vital importance to us, and we must presume that at any rate in the foreseeable future the oilfields of the Trucial Coast, Iraq and Persia will mean a great deal to this country and should, if possible, remain under independent Governments. It is also important for America that Saudi Arabia should remain independent.
There is no doubt that President Nasser thinks precisely the opposite. There is no doubt, also, that he is steadily attempting to achieve his hardly-concealed ambition to dominate the whole Arab world. It is, therefore, obvious that his aims are directly contradictory to those of this country and those countries in the Middle East which wish to maintain their independence.
For years Egypt has bitterly attacked us on the radio, and war propaganda has been waged unceasingly against us throughout the Middle East, and yet in the past the whole Nasser régime has been saved by American loans. At a moment when the whole stability of his régime is doubtful, which is not only threatening us but Israel and therefore the whole security of the area, America continues to support him. Why, despite our interests, does America wish to maintain him in power? Apart from that, there is his active intervention in the Yemen.
All these examples make it quite clear that in certain areas we are frustrating America and in other areas America is working against us. The importance of Cuba, British Guiana and China to the Americans, must be offset by the importance of the Middle East and the maintenance of the Malaysian Federation to us. Considering what is at stake I should have thought it essential that instead of this disunity, somehow or other we should have been able to achieve a joint policy.
We have been unable to do that. Sometimes we have acted separately, sometimes in unison and sometimes
1184
without any, but hardly ever have our actions been taken as the result of any forethought or anticipation. The time has come to bring this situation to an end. We should consider the suggestion made many years ago by a former Prime Minister—Lord Avon—that we should establish a tactical committee, not dissimilar to the war-time Anglo-American Chiefs of Staff Committee, to take a long-term look at the world situation.
This committee would, of course, not have the right to decide, but it would advise and anticipate. I believe that at least it would be an attempt at co-operation. Looking back once again to the last war, very often England's and America's ideas were not identical, but as a result of joint consultation they nearly always worked together effectively. Why should this be impossible in peace time? We have a joint purpose. Could not we see, therefore, whether it would be possible to join together in the implementation of our plans? The chief sufferers of our disunity are ourselves and not the Communists.
Had we acted jointly, I do not believe that the situation in various parts of the world would be as serious as it is today. Look at Cyprus, where it was perfectly plain for many years that the constitution was breaking down. Had Britain and America concentrated on a plan, we should not be on the edge of a Turko-Grecian war or find the Eastern axis of N.A.T.O. divided. If one takes a look around the world one can be sure that the future will hold many similar shocks and changes for us.
Let me give examples. Have we a policy prepared if Nasser launches an attack against Israel? Libya is now an extremely important country with oil reserves. Early this year the King resigned. A day or two later he came back to his throne. That is typical of the confusion which exists throughout the whole country. During the past decade there has been a large-scale infiltration of Egyptians into the country. What will happen if a plan has already been made for a country already racially divided into three sections to be physically divided between Egypt and Algeria? Are we prepared for that? What would be our action if the present official Government called to us for aid? These are the problems which face us today and what is so alarming is

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that we do not know what our joint policy is. I am not saying that there is no close liaison between ourselves and America—there is. But should not we establish first with America and, leading from that, with Europe, machinery by which we could plan and anticipate? After all, is not planning and anticipation the basis of every successful operation?
It is difficult to see what harm such an advisory committee could do. I believe it possible that it could do an enormous amount of good. It could greatly decrease the spheres of disagreement. It could enoble us to be prepared to take positive action and it could enable us to have a general policy in spheres where at present we are divided. In the past many of the Anglo-American misunderstandings have been unnecessary mistakes. I am sure that we all hope that this will not recur. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, at some time in the future, will attempt to initiate talks with President Johnson concerning the establishment of such a joint advisory committee to try to give the West the unity which it has lacked in the past.
5.54 p.m.
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) has taken us on a tour of the world looking at the individual danger spots, and he found the situation alarming. I must say that I found it alarming too, and not only because of the nature of the troubles in the danger spots. I found it alarming also because of the sort of remedy which I felt the hon. Member would apply to those problems, except in one instance when he said that there should be consultation. That is, of course, immensely important, though I do not know why it should be limited to consultation with America and then with Europe.
Viscount Lambton: I said I thought that we should start with America. There is not enough unity in Europe.
Mr. Mallalieu: Evidently the hon. Member wishes to go further, which is exactly what I want. The mere fact that he has to look at these problems in isolation and finds them alarming but does not look beyond to see what could possibly be the remedy—except consultation in what I thought a rather
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imperialistic manner with America and later with France—is indeed alarming from another point of view. However, I do not think he is the only source of alarm.
We listened to a speech from the Foreign Secretary which I felt was a really frightful performance. The trouble with Ministers is that whatever good intentions they start with, they very soon get so bogged down with a round of ceremony and appalling drudgery of detail that they are just unable to see the wood for the trees. The longer they are in office, the worse it becomes. Their plight becomes one in which they are quite unable to follow through any conclusion, any idea that they might have. In fact, I think it true to say that the Front Benches of the world are groaning under the weight of unimaginative drudges. It is not always their fault, as I have tried to explain. It is because of the circumstances in which we live today, with so many problems on our hands and so much attention to detail.
I found the speech of the Foreign Secretary a puffy, flabby wedge of platitudes. Oh yes, he was donnish. He gave the impression from time to time of missing his blackboard. He took us round looking at each problem in isolation and he left us with no suggestion at all about how the whole might be painted. He did not have any picture to show of the world as a whole in spite of the fact that he travelled so far in his tour.
What is this world picture which I feel that Ministers are incapable of seeing, not because of any lack of intelligence or ability but because they have been placed in Ministerial positions and have been there for far too long? Is it the world of South Africa or Southern Rhodesia? Is it South Arabia, or South Vietnam? Is it the difference in the social systems of the East and the West? Is it even the difference in the economic level between the struggling newer Powers and the more long-established industrial Powers? I should be the last person to suggest that all these things are not of extreme importance. I cannot imagine the world really being at peace with itself until these matters have been dealt with.
In my submission these are only the colours. I make this assertion, that if

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there were the political will among the greater Powers in the world today, steps could be taken which, in the space of 10 years only, might make war impossible. These steps of a mechanical order have already been taken in such a way as, for instance, to make war absolutely impossible between Scotland and England, or between the States of the American Union or between the Cantons of Switzerland. It was a matter of mechanics, and these mechanics have been effective in preventing war. No one, certainly not I, is suggesting that we can alter human nature by mechanical arrangements, but it is possible—it has been demonstrated to be possible—to make war impossible in certain spheres. I regret that what we heard from the Foreign Secretary this afternoon failed to show any glimmer of understanding that such things might be brought about if an imaginative lead were given.
If only four of the great Powers came together and willed it, there could be a world federation in the measurable future. I believe that the idea of world federation is already in existence in a great many countries—I should say the great majority of small countries, even if it is not in the bigger ones. If the smaller ones knew that the bigger ones willed that machinery they would fall in behind them. I am not just talking from imagination. I have had the good fortune to visit a great many of the countries of Africa, for instance. There is not a country in West Africa, with the possible exception of Ghana, which would not fall in without a murmur, except to cheer the bigger Powers, if they would give a lead in that direction.
Yet it is very nearly four years since that very remarkable Conference of Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth in which they made the statement which, in effect, said that we cannot expect to maintain world peace unless we have a world authority capable of maintaining and enforcing world law. It was a most remarkable statement. Her Majesty's Government were a party to it. What have they done about it since? I know of nothing, except possibly two very unfortunate incidents which have happened this year. Both relate to the Foreign Secretary. In answer to a
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Question yesterday he said that he was going to refer to this matter today, but he did not do so.
Twice this year the Foreign Secretary, with a great blaring of trumpets and all the publicity he could muster from Press conferences and so on, has said, "I am going to such-and-such a conference"—in one case the Geneva Disarmament Conference and in the other the Cento Conference—" to make a breakthrough in this matter of a permanent world police force." On one occasion he failed entirely to mention it at the conference and on the other he virtually failed to mention it. I suppose he did this under the shadow of the oncoming General Election. I suppose he gathered whatever personal kudos was to be gathered from making statements of good intention, and, maybe, he gathered it for his party. I do not know, but these two incidents, coupled with a lifetime of elegant and fine scholarly utterances by the Foreign Secretary which have earned the admiration of opinion in this House but which have always been completely lacking in follow-up by appropriate action, give me a complete lack of confidence that he will lead us anywhere.
On the contrary, they lead me to believe that he is someone who has never believed in anything in his life and that, therefore, he is the last person on earth to lead a nation of idealists such as we are, although we have our feet on the ground in practical matters. He is the last man on earth to lead us at this time when these great changes are coming about on the foreign scene. He shows himself unable to take any notice of them at all, except that he says he will take note of them and gives us a donnish lecture about all these matters being under constant review. This, I feel, is a complete and absolute tragedy.
If the human race is to survive this century we have got to have a world federal government. It is no use just pointing to difficulties in Aden and South Vietnam. Of course there are difficulties, and always will be, about foreign affairs. The difficulties are extremely intractable and they become more so through misunderstanding caused by language and upbringing, but we must see the picture as a whole. That, I am afraid, the present Government have

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failed to do. There must be, what they called for nearly four years ago, a central authority having as a minimum the power to have a monopoly of arms and to make war impossible.
Only so can we achieve that general and complete disarmament which everyone thinks is a prerequisite to a stable peace. Only so can war by accident be prevented by the complete elimination of arms right down to police level in the hands of sovereign States. Only so can the disparity in economic fields between the have-nots and the haves be done away with satisfactorily. I imagine that very few people think now that either Khrushchev or Johnson is going to start a war voluntarily. We all know that they will lean over backwards to prevent any war starting lest it escalates into a bigger war. What we are likely, far more likely, to see is a huddle between them in their efforts to stop the further spread of nuclear weapons.
I am glad that Her Majesty's Government are going to push in behind that with any weight they may have in international affairs, but no one can be sure—all the "hot lines "notwithstanding—so long as nuclear weapons are in the hands of sovereign Powers that there will not be a war by accident. It that happened we all know there would not be a single human being on this planet who would be unaffected, not even if he stayed in a cave in Mongolia for years on end. That gives us every reason to hope that even the Chinese, who are often regarded as a complete stumbling block in the way of this plan for general and complete disarmament, that even they, since they are intelligent people—at least as intelligent as we are—will have the sense to see that it is in their interests, exactly as it is in the interests of the Russians and everyone else, at all costs to get to the central problem of general and complete disarmament.
I have no doubt that, apart from the ones I have mentioned such as being bogged down in detail, the main reason which stops Her Majesty's Government going ahead with a tremendous drive in this direction is that other people will not follow it. What reason can they have now for thinking that the Soviet Union will not act in its own interests? Is it not in its own interests to survive and do away with nuclear war? They were
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the first to say that they wanted general and complete disarmament because they believe that we could not entirely abolish war and the fear of war unless we have complete disarmament. There may have been reasons some time ago why it was prudent to consider that the Soviet Union was not sincere in its expressed desire for general and complete disarmament, but that is no longer the case.
I hope the House will bear with me for a few moments while I tell hon. Members of something which happened in Switzerland this year, in the heart of the Inter-Parliamentary Union Conference. I know that many on the Front Bench—perhaps I should say the Front Benches, I do not know—have perhaps a rather poor opinion of the Inter-Parliamentary Union. If they have they should bear in mind that it was due to discussions in the Inter-Parliamentary Union that the World Court came into existence. It was very largely due to discussions in the Inter-Parliamentary Union that the League of Nations became a fact with its descendant in the United Nations.
The Inter-Parliamentary Union consists of ordinary independent Members of Parliament for the most part, Members who are not briefed by Governments and who have an independent expression of a point of view—for the most part, but not all. They have, of course, their constituents tugging at their coat tails and are an extremely progressive body on the whole and enlightened.
This Easter the whole of the Iron Curtain countries—in fact, their decision was unanimous—and the others agreed to something which I would have thought was quite unbelievable, at any rate from the Iron Curtain countries, even a couple of years ago. Each hon. Member can put his own interpretation on why this happened. They agreed to do things with regard to peace-keeping machinery. They agreed that ultimately, in the second stage, there must be, if we want to have general and complete disarmament, a world law as distinct from international law which applies only to Governments—a world law applicable to individuals, so that if an individual was found manufacturing arms contrary to the treaty he could be dealt with. That world law must be against violence and against the

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possession of arms without the permission of the central authority.
Secondly, there must be world courts, not the International Courts, to interpret and apply that law, and, thirdly, there must be a force to impose that law. That is in the ultimate. To those three things, in a package deal, the Soviet Union delegates have agreed, and they cannot at the Inter-Parliamentary Union or anywhere else agree to something which is absolutely contrary to what their Governments say, although we can. They agreed to these three things in the ultimate. In the immediate future, they agreed to the setting up as soon as possible of a United Nations emergency force, not only of general staff at the United Nations—military, medical, legal, administrative and scientific—into which cadres troops could be fitted, contributed by national Governments. It agreed not only to that but that there should still be this world law against violence and the possession of arms without the authority of the emergency unit, and legal machinery to deal with such things as the breakdown of law and order, as occurred in the Congo.
Mr. W. Yates: The Secretary of State for Defence, in Geneva, put forward some ideas on a court for world delinquency. I should like the hon. and learned Gentleman to be more specific as to how the culprit would be arrested, who would charge him and how the machinery would work. That seems to be an important factor.
Mr. Mallalieu: I appreciate the hon. Member's desire to understand exactly what I mean. I am afraid that I cannot give him the full details which would take me another 10 minutes or so. I can say that the charge would be made by these legal cadres in the case of the emergency force. If it had been in existence at the time of the Congo and the chiefs of staff there and the Staff Committee of the United Nations and the legal men had planned it in advance, it could have gone into the Congo with 50 times more effect than it did, in circumstances which we know about only too well. My point is that here are the Iron Curtain countries agreeing to something which some of us in this country had been working at and pleading for during the last 10 years. We
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have talked to them in the Inter-Parliamentary Union about it for nearly as many years as that, and we might as well have talked to blocks of concrete until this year.
Everything seems to have changed. But what has changed with the Foreign Secretary? All that he says is that we must note this change and be prepared to deal with it. No attempt at a lead has been given and no indication as to the path along which he hopes to go, still less any indication of the goal to which he should be leading us.
For far too long too many people have been thinking that they will arrive at disarmament by merely going to disarmament conferences. It is apparently the argument that they themselves are good and that if they sit round the disarmament conference table they will be able to persuade other people that they are good and the other people will then disarm. Of course they will not. Nearly 40 years of disarmament conferences have shown that this will not happen and that there will never be disarmament of sovereign States until someone has sufficient vigour to put forward an alternative system of security to that which people think that they have at present by arms.
Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Is it any good disarming unless we find some alternative methods to force to settle disputes? Must we not have a world law generally accepted as to how the disputes are to be settled?
Mr. Mallalieu: I thought that that was precisely what I was saying. We must have this world law both in the immediate and ultimate stage, and we must have the machinery to interpret it and enforce it. That is the most important thing.
I should like to feel that in view of this change which appears to have come about amongst the Iron Curtain countries the British Government would propose and press precisely what these countries have now agreed to. Is that too much to ask? I am certain that if the British Government did it, all of us on this side of the House would be prepared to forgive them for clinging on to office to the last possible legal moment contrary to the wishes of the electorate—but I do not expect to be called on to exercise that forgiveness.
7.17 p.m.
Mr. Humphry Berkeley: In the absence of the Leader of the House, I should be grateful if the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs could draw his attention to the somewhat unsatisfactory nature of this debate. In the first place, it is quite deplorable that we should not have had a foreign affairs debate in this House for a year. It also seems to me to be wholly inadequate for us to be discussing over a two-day period problems as remote from each other as Berlin, Indo-China, Cyprus and Cuba. I do not think that it is possible for us to have a very coherent debate in these circumstances.
It is quite remarkable when one thinks that just over a year ago we continually had debates about the Common Market. It is right that we should have regular debates on certain defined subjects within the foreign sphere, and it is certainly not true to say that foreign affairs have suddenly ceased to be important since the Common Market negotiations ended. Yet that might well be the view of anyone who looks at the amount of time devoted by this House to debating this subject. When I think of the number of utterly worthless subjects on which this House spends hours discussing—subjects that are, I suspect, of little interest to hon. Members and of even less interest to our constituents—I think that I may ask the Leader of the House to be slightly more accommodating in regard to foreign affairs debates in future.
Precisely because one could roam over almost anything in this debate, and because I believe this to be unsatisfactory, I propose to devote my remarks exclusively to Cyprus. I visited Greece, Cyprus and Turkey a few weeks ago. I had the opportunity of having discussions with Greek and Turkish Ministers—the Prime Minister of Turkey, the Deputy Prime Minister of Greece—and all the major interested parties on the Island of Cyprus itself.
Cyprus is, as it happens, the only place to which I have ever been that appears to be worse on the ground than it is from afar, and when I recall that I have been to Aden, the Yemen, Zanzibar and other strange places, that is really saying something. One gets the most appalling sensation of evil, which
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is the result of ungovernable hatred having broken out between the races.
I do not think that there is much point in jogging back to see which race was responsible for this breakdown in human relations; both races in Cyprus have behaved at times rashly, at times with folly, at times provocatively. What we must do is look at the events that have taken place since January, if only to teach ourselves certain lessons in case a peace-keeping operation of this character has to be undertaken again. It is at this point that I find myself in disagreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe).
It was, of course, correct for us to send in our troops when we did—there was no possible alternative—but I believe, and I said so within a few weeks of this crisis breaking out, that it was a cardinal error on the part of our Government to assume that this was a problem that could be solved either by Britain or by Britain and Greece and Turkey—or even by N.A.T.O. I therefore feel that the first diplomatic mistake we made was not only in not taking the matter to the United Nations but, in the early stages, resisting the taking of it to the United Nations.
There are two quite separate problems to be dealt with in Cyprus. They are interrelated—and, indeed, one follows on from the other—but they are separate, and until our minds are clarified as to what the problems are we are liable to fall into the same confusion that has in some sense affected the United Nations itself. The two problems are, first, pacification and, secondly, the eventual long-term solution.
We shall not get a solution of any kind even being considered until pacification has been achieved. This, in my judgment, was the basic weakness in the appointment of Mr. Tuomioja, the mediator, with the terms of reference he was given when he was appointed. His terms of reference were to sound out the communities and report back to the Secretary-General about the areas of agreement between the communities that might lead to an ultimate political solution.
As I saw for myself, there is no physical contact between the communities. The bulk of the island is controlled by the

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Greek Cypriots, but a sizeable portion of Nicosia, and almost all the territory along the road from Nicosia to Kyrenia is in the hands of the Turks. I had to pass through nine separate armed road blocks, manned, on the one hand, by illegal Turkish police armed with Sten guns and, on the other hand, near Kyrenia, by Greek-Cypriot irregulars in rather bizarre uniforms, also armed with Sten guns. My passport had to be produced, my car was searched. There was no freedom of movement whatever. The two communities are not in communication with each other by writing, or even by telephone. When I went to see Dr. Kutchuk from the Ledra Palace Hotel I had to drive myself, because no taxi driver from the Greek quarter was prepared to chance his life in the Turkish quarter.
The clear deduction from this appalling breakdown in human relations is that until peace is restored no progress whatsoever can be made. It is no good talking, as I did, to Mr. Inonu in Turkey. I saw him two days after 32 Turks had been kidnapped. Eventually, eight of them were returned, but 24 of them have not been returned and we can only assume that they have been murdered. It is no use expecting the Turkish Government to be politically able to discuss, even if they wished to, ultimate solutions for Cyprus as long as their people in Cyprus are beleaguered and in a state of mortal physical danger. Therefore, if we can, in our minds, separate the question into the short-term problem of peace-making and the long-term problem of political settlement, we come to what is the absolute crux of the matter, and that is the rôle of the United Nations.
Various hon. Members have suggested in this debate that in some way or another the United Nations mandate is inadequate. I believe this to be the case. At the present time, the United Nations has no power to search. It has no power to disarm. It has no power to take down road blocks. The only power it has is that if it happens to see a fight breaking out it can try to stop it.
I am quite convinced, therefore, that we must see with clarity that the power that is likely to be effective in this strengthened mandate is the giving to the
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United Nations of complete control over all military and police operations on the island; that is to say, to give it the power to disarm all the irregulars, whether on the Greek or the Turkish side, and to give it physical control over the Greek police and the Turkish police, but with the United Nations making use of the two forces. The urgent, prime task is to make the United Nations force take over the patrolling of the Nicosia-Kyrenia road, charge it with the obligation of removing the road blocks, and give the Turkish community guarantees of protection by the United Nations force against any attempt on the part of the Greeks to move into their part of the territory.
That seems to me to be the essential need, and I hope that in New York our Government will insist that unless this over-riding mandate is given to the United Nations we shall feel compelled to withdraw our contingent from the force. I think that we have had enough humiliation as it is. I never felt happy about the idea of British troops acting in a peacemaking rôle in Cyprus where, after all, we have in the past been militarily involved in a somewhat unpopular way. But if our men are to be there, we must be there in reasonable circumstances and under a strong and effective mandate. I therefore hope that the Foreign Secretary will see that when the question of the mandate comes up at the United Nations, Sir Patrick Dean is given instructions to insist that without a strengthened directive we do not believe that the British contribution to this peacemaking force can any longer be effective.
We must ask ourselves whether this mandate would be acceptable not only to the Greek and Turkish Governments but to the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities. Let us take, first, the Turkish Cypriot community. These people have now reached a state of appallingly low morale. They are be-leagured, beaten and frightened. They see only two possibilities ahead of them which can prevent them from being massacred. The first is a Turkish invasion, which is obviously what they would like best. The second is United Nations help. I believe that they are in a state of such despair at present that the Turkish Cypriots would accept an overriding mandate of this kind.

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What about the Greek Cypriote? I think that Archbishop Makarios would obviously have reservations on a strengthened mandate at present. On the other hand, he must recognise that any solution for Cyprus to which the United Nations is a party is bound in the long run to favour the principle of majority rule. Archbishop Makarios excuses the arming of some 30,000 irregular gangsters with Sten guns on the ground that they are necessary to protect him against an invasion from Turkey. Again, if the United Nations were to assume military control over all operations in Cyprus and if the United Nations were to indicate that invasion, from whatever quarter it came, would be resisted by force, the public ostensible justification for Makarios arming these irregulars would immediately be swept aside.
I know that it has been said—my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor said it—that the Turks have a right under the Treaty to invade. We should be quite clear what their legal right is. Under Article 3 of the Treaty of Guarantee each of the contracting parties has a right to take action to carry out one objective, and one objective only—that is, to restore the constitutional position of the existing Cyprus Constitution, and for no other reason at all. If the Turks were to invade to bring about partition, they would be committing aggression. If they were to invade to bring about federation, they would be committing aggression. If they were to invade to bring about a double Enosis, they would be committing aggression. It is only in this strictly limited sphere that a Turkish or a Greek invasion could have any legality at all.
As now none of the parties in Cyprus and none of the interested Governments favours a return to the 1960 Constitution, it seems to me that any invasion of Cyprus could be interpreted by the United Nations, quite rightly, as an act of aggression. It is essential for the United Nations to do two things. The first is to undertake to protect each race—such a United Nations guarantee would be of far more value to the Turks—and the second is to undertake to prevent outside intervention. I believe that this is the only argument and the only action which may force Makarios to agree to the disarming of his irregulars. It is the key to the restoration of law and order.
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This is the preliminary. It is necessary to separate in our minds what the two problems are. Pacification is the first problem. If law and order can be restored; if we can arrive at a situation in which people are no longer kidnapped, if we can get the sandbags down in Nicosia and the road blocks down on the Nicosia—Kyrenia road; if we can get a situation in which a Greek can go into the Turkish part of Nicosia without being murdered and a Turk can go into Kyrenia without being shot, then a situation will be created in which some sort of relationship begins to exist between the races, and only then will it be possible for us to consider what the long-term solutions may be.
What both parties and all Governments will have to consider is that, if the United Nations, which is the only body which can now do it, takes on to itself a direct commitment of this overriding kind, the United Nations becomes the most directly interested party in achieving a settlement in Cyprus. Both sides must recognise this before it happens.
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor sketched around the long-term solutions. This is a matter which we can spend some months thinking out, if only we can get the United Nations mandate straight. I am convinced that no solution in Cyprus can conceivably work which perpetuates indefinitely the racial distinction between Greek and Turk. Under the existing Constitution, the now unworkable Constitution, a Turk who stole a motor bicycle had to go before a Turkish court and not a Greek court; a Turk convicted of murder had to go in front of the Vice-President for reprieve and not the President. At every stage of the Constitution he was legally defined as being a Greek or a Turk. Therefore, at no time since 1960 when independence came was there any movement to bring the races together. On the contrary, on each of my six visits there in those three years it imperceptibly became clear to me that the races were growing further apart.
Nor can one ever have a solution in a territory which has a majority of 82 per cent. and a minority of 18 per cent., which in effect gives a power of veto, and therefore a power of government, to

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a small minority. My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor quite rightly said that we ought not to look for a solution in Cyprus which would humiliate our Turkish friends and bring about gross hardship to the Turkish-Cypriot minority. When visiting Cyprus at present one cannot fail to give all one's sympathy on the parlous position of the Turkish minority.
What are the guarantees that the Turkish minority needs? What would prevent the Turkish Government from undergoing a humiliation? What any racial minority requires is, first, the opportunity to live in peace, the opportunity to practise its religious faith, to abide by its local customs, to educate its families according to its traditions, and to have legal defined rights in the sight of the law. These are the fundamentals which any racial minority must require. These are the matters which we have tried to ensure that Europeans in our former African Colonies have retained after independence has been achieved. This is the whole object of producing Bills of Rights.
What will be in the basic interests of the Turkish Government in Ankara? Is it really going to be in their interests to have partition in Cyprus, with a frontier which is ill-defined, which probably cannot be easily defended and over which there will always be fighting? Is it in their interests to have in Cyprus an independent Cypriot Government with overwhelming power, neutralist in theory but heavily impregnated with Communism in practice? Is that in the best interests of Turkey—to have this, only 40 miles from the Turkish mainland? Or might it conceivably be in the best interests of both the Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish Government to have a Cyprus united with Greece, ultimately part of N.A.T.O. with a N.A.T.O. presence and base and a Turkish contingent as part of that presence, part of a country implacably opposed to Communism and determined to keep Communism out at all costs? Is that not perhaps in the long run the argument which might most appeal to the Turkish Government?
What about the Turkish Cypriots? Might they not in the long run have more favourable treatment under a Government ruled by a metropolitan Power which has
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had to deal with the problem of Turkish minorities before? Might not a more comfortable life be assured to those who wish to stay? I give no dogmatic answer to these questions. Indeed, I have indicated that these are questions which can be discussed only when temperatures are lowered, when lives are no longer in danger and when peace is restored.
It is because, having been there, I am confident that peace can be restored only by the United Nations having this overriding mandate, and because I believe that we—as a result of our historical ties with Cyprus and our military involvement with that country, along with our base in Cyprus—are as interested as anybody in securing a favourable outcome of this problem, that I ask the Prime Minister to see that Britain takes the lead to achieve this mandate, which alone can bring peace when the matter is debated in the Security Council a week from now.
7.42 p.m.
Mr. R. W. Sorensen: The debate has ranged over a wide field and I am sure that hon. Members will forgive me if I do not immediately follow the corner of overseas problems which the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley) discussed in his admirable speech, which was made obviously out of his own experience. I wish to deal with one aspect of foreign affairs which, although it has been touched on, has by no means been exhausted. I refer to the Arabian Peninsula, particularly the Yemen.
Some years ago I had the advantage of going to the Yemen before it had become as prominent in the news as it is now. It was a very fascinating experience for me because the Yemen was, and still is, a kind of medieval remnant left over from the past. I soon discovered, from talking privately with some citizens of the Yemen, that behind the superficial peace of the country—a peace secured largely by intimidation and cruelty—there were smouldering fires waiting to burst into flame at any moment. Those fires have now burst into flame and the result is that the Imamic régime has passed, although the present Imam, the successor to the previous Imam, then the Crown-Prince and now the claimant to the Imamate, has a certain number of Royalist troops in the mountains. A Yemeni Charles the First prevails in one

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part of the country, while Yemeni Crom-wellians rule the towns.
In the cities and towns—in, for example, Taiz and Sana—there are Republicans still retaining a certain strength. Were it not for the 30,000 to 40,000 Egyptian troops now in the Yemen it might not be possible for the Republicans to retain what they have won, but I am convinced that both the Royalists in the mountains and the Republicans in the towns are at one in demanding that at some date there should be a union of their own country with what they call the Southern Yemen.
When I talked with the Yemenis I discovered it was their burning conviction that the southern part of the peninsula, adjoining their country, had been forcibly taken from them in bygone days and that it should be restored to them. In 1839, when we acquired Aden Colony and then secured the hinterland which was later called the Protectorates, the territory was certainly acquired by force—not from the Imam of the Yemen but, rather, from the Sultan of Lahej. It is important to recognise this because just as the Sultan of Lahej broke away from the Imam and set up his own domain and authority—and we recognised him in the original agreement we had with him, no doubt under duress—I submit that we should also recognise that there has been a revolt against the Imam, a more modern Imam, in the Yemen.
This has lead to the establishment of the Republican régime in the towns and we are, therefore, as entitled to parley and negotiate with the Republican régime, seceded from the present Imamate, as in 1839 we parleyed and entered into an agreement with the secessionist Sultan of Lahej. Certainly it was an acquisition on our part to serve our interests. There was, of course, a reason or excuse for this acquisition, which was that our sailors, when shipwrecked, had been maltreated. We know enough about such events to know that that was the occasion rather than the real cause—and that on that occasion we secured a valuable station for commercial and strategic purposes. We secured it by defeating the troops of the Sultan of Lahej and, under duress, the Colony was acquired. Later we entered into arrangements with a number of
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chiefs to secure a valuable and necessary buffer between Aden Colony and the Yemen.
When Britain is condemned, as often she is, for such an imperial acquisition—and I admit that it was such to serve our own interests—we should point out that many of the critics do or have done exactly the: same. The Yemen itself was not once what it is now. It grew from humble beginnings. At one time a number of nomadic chiefs dwelt in their own lands, travelling from place to place, but by force, absorption agreements and a variety of means the Yemen came into being. Much the same thing happened, but on a larger scale, to form the British Empire, which grew and expanded throughout the world. I mention this because it is not for any country to point the finger of scorn at this country for having been an imperial nation in the past. It is the way things happened. It is the way in which human nature behaved in the past. All nations and all people were involved in the same process, but in the course of time we learned greater wisdom.
It was done for reasons of expediency, and for the same reason of expediency I maintain that it is essential today to recognise the existence of the new Republican régime. I know it can be and has been said that it is difficult to ascertain who has the controlling power in the Yemen. All one can say is that in the cities and other urban places where people dwell, rather than wander around or live primitively in agricultural pursuits, the Republicans are strong. That being so, we must make up our minds whether we wish to support the Royalist régime, which may still be strong in the mountains, or whether we wish to support the Republican régime in the cities.
Can there be any doubt that our interest as a democratic country must be with the Republicans? Much might be said for withholding recognition until such time as one or other of the rival forces can prove their strength, but I say that it is in our interest and both wise and expedient that forthwith we recognise the Republican régime. I hold this view for one or two reasons. First, I believe it would assist the Yemenis themselves to increase their resistance to the infiltration of their

1203
country by Egypt. There are 30,000 to 40,000 Egyptian troops in the Yemen. Possibly they came there in the first place at the request of the Republicans to help them defend themselves against the Royalists in the mountains. Possibly, as I have admitted, with the withdrawal of the Egyptian troops the Royalists would become dominant, aided no doubt, by Saudi Arabia in one way or another, and overthrow the Republican régime.
But that does not alter the fact that by recognising the Republican régime we should give some assistance to those Yemenis who are becoming increasingly critical of the presence of Egyptian troops in the country. Although one can admire much that Nasser has done—and he has done a great deal—and while on the other hand we can criticise much that he has done, the fact remains that there is much fear in some parts of the Middle East that Egypt may be taking the place of the old Ottoman Empire for which there was formerly great detestation. If that is so, it seems to me that we can encourage the Yemenis to intensify their national consciousness and to strengthen their resolve not to be subordinated to Egypt if we recognise the Republican régime.
The second point is that by recognising that régime we go a long way towards meeting those who in what they call Southern Yemen and what we now call the South Arabian Federation claim that they desire union with the Yemen—and certainly large numbers do. These are by no means confined to the Yemenis who have infiltrated from beyond the border. In Aden itself, undoubtedly the great mass of politically conscious men—I do not say "women", because they hardly seem to count in this context, unfortunately—are desirous at some time of union with the Yemen. That being so, we should recognise it as a desirable aim which we should assist, which may not be attainable immediately but which nevertheless is a desirable and laudable aim on the part of the Arabs both in Aden and in the Yemen.
There is such a fact as Arab-consciousness, a strange thing maybe but very powerful. I stress this because I disagree with those who are inclined to explain all the conflicts between nations and communities on economic grounds. Economic factors are very
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powerful. No doubt they are embedded in the conflict at present in the Arabian Peninsula, but they do not represent the only factor. We human beings have multiple motives and multiple components in our behaviour. There are economic, cultural, historic, psychological and religious factors.
In the Arabian Peninsula there is the intense factor of Arab-consciousness. We must think of that and recognise it as a fact. It may not go very far, and it may not succeed as it is hoped that it will succeed. One weakness of the Arab world is their apparent incapacity to implement the union which they so ardently desire. But it does not alter the fact of Arab-consciousness, and if we recognise that as a fact it seems to me we shall go some way towards encouraging a greater understanding between Arabs and Britain by admitting the aspiration which they have, in the Yemen, in Aden Colony and in the Federation for ultimate union, as desirable.
Mr. W. Yates: Would the hon. Member say whether their aspirations run counter to British interests in that part of the world?
Mr. Sorensen: I was about to come to that. On the contrary, I do not think that they run contrary to British interests. I touch on a matter which will be debated at some other time after what I hope will be the fortunate conclusion of the present conference in London, but I anticipate it, I think justifiably, by saying that one reason why we are hesitant about recognising the Republican régime or this aspiration for ultimate union of the Yemen is our belief that by so doing we may lose very powerful interests in Aden Colony, particularly in respect of our military base. Certainly, in consistency with our own democratic professions, we must lay it down that we cannot hold on to that base, no matter how valuable it may be to us, against the will of the people. If there is no real desire on the part of the population of Aden that we should be there, obviously at some time we must clear out. If we do not, we should be betraying the very principles we have openly and justifiably proclaimed and implemented in other parts of the Commonwealth.

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Reference has been made today to the fact that the Empire has almost gone and that just a few fragments remain. Personally I am glad it is being replaced by what I think is the nobler concept of the Commonwealth. But be that as it may, we are bound by our own consistency to apply to Aden what we have applied elsewhere, which means that we recognise that we have no right to remain in possession of any part of the Arabian Peninsula against the wishes of the people.
But I do not think that there is any real clash in this matter at all. I am quite convinced that once we demonstrate our consistency, particularly in the ex-Colony of Aden, and show that we desire it to be independent and self-governing, then two facts will flow from this. The first will be the recognition that from an economic standpoint the base is of immeasurable value to the people of Aden. A large number have found employment directly or indirectly from the base and from British troops and British interests there. Secondly, I think that they will also appreciate that by the British remaining in Aden Colony for a while, they can look to the British, as others have looked elsewhere, for protection against any possible attack on them by the feudal lords and rulers of the Protectorate.
For those two reasons I believe it would be possible to negotiate freely between an independent self-governing Aden, on the one hand, and ourselves, on the other hand. Both sides would, I think, gain by an agreement, freely negotiated, by which, on the one hand, we retained the base for a certain period and, on the other hand, there was general economic benefit to the people and Government of Aden.
Between the Aden and the Yemen there is the amorphous East-West area with upwards of a million people living in effete feudal ways, with a number of rulers with considerable power—although this varies between tribe and tribe. It is important that we appreciate the resentment on the part of the more politically conscious people of Aden that they, with a certain measure of democracy, should be forcibly linked with those more feudalistic and perhaps reactionary communities in the Protectorates.
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Therefore, whilst recognising the right of Aden to be free and independent, we should give the Protectorate rulers notice that our present agreement for protection will at some time come to an end, so that they can thereby be induced to make terms, on the one hand, with Yemen and, on the other, with a democratic self-governing Aden. I hope, therefore, that in this small part of the world the Government will be bold and will take the initiative. I believe if they announced that we will recognise the Yemen Republican régime and if they did all they could to induce the Royalists to negotiate with that régime to secure a united Yemen, and also establish an independent Government in Aden, this would go a long way to encourage friendship and confidence between ourselves and the democratic forces of Southern Arabia and lead to a new situation in which none would lose and all would gain.
8.1 p.m.
Mr. John Biggs-Davison: The hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) made, as usual, a constructive and humane speech. He spoke from personal experience and I think it was a rather dangerous personal experience of the Yemen and of Aden. I do not fully agree with what he said and will offer my own comments on it in a moment.
No reference has yet been made from this side of the House to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu). I object to his attack upon my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He made a personal attack upon my right hon. Friend's character and he made an attack on his speech. He chided my right hon. Friend for not being able to see the wood for the trees, but having listened to the speech of the hon. and learned Member I was unable to see the wood for the wool.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and indeed the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) and other speakers from both sides of the House, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths), who treated the House to such an admirable, able and eloquent maiden speech, have drawn the attention of the House to the repeatedly changing

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international scene. The 1960s are very different from the 1950s. Cuba was a climacteric and the lesson of Cuba was that the nuclear deterrent does indeed deter. No longer are most of the nations of the world panicked or polarised into one or other of two blocs. There has been a revival of diplomacy. The "hot line" between the Kremlin and the White House is an earnest of the tentative Soviet-American rapprochement which is hopeful but which also could prove dangerous for those Powers which are in the middle.
The Communists, particularly in the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, emulate aspects of Western capitalism. North American corn rescues Premier Khrushchev from some of the consequences of a collectivism which has achieved something more than the Czars ever achieved, namely, famine from the River Elbe to the Pacific Ocean. China, described by Napoleon as a "sleeping giant", has awakened. He is stretching his limbs along the Himalayas. Napoleon said that when this "sleeping giant" awoke he would "astonish the world." To use the jargon, Communism is no longer monolithic, it is polycentric. In the Muscovite church there is a pope and an anti-pope, but which is the Leninist pope and which the revisionist pope I would hesitate to say.
Europe is in renaissance and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds said, it is now European bankers who lend to the Americans. The right hon. Member for Smethwick urged us not to try to intervene in the United States Presidential election. I think that we politicians can safely leave that to the Press, but that the coming changes in the United States are matters of which in this House we have to take note though I believe that at least some of the fears expressed are exaggerated.
I remember some supposedly well-informed people expressing grave anxiety when General Eisenhower succeeded Mr. Truman. They feared a dangerous lurch in United States foreign policy. It did not so prove, but I think that the British people are entitled to consider and we in this House are entitled to consider, whose finger would be on the trigger if a Socialist Government came into power, which is unlikely, and phased out the British nuclear deterrent.
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There are other changes in the United States. The terrible racial problem will not be resolved by the acceptance or rejection of the Civil Rights Bill. The racial virus has spread and may prove worse in the harsher conditions of the Northern cities than in the more lackadaisical and segregated South, and the eyes of United States statesmanship will inevitably be turned inwards. On this racial question we who do not have to deal with it should at least try to understand rather than to condemn. This applies both to the United States and to the Republic of South Africa.
Today Europe is relatively stronger and North America is relatively weaker, and the West confronts a Communist empire whose decay and disunity can probably be arrested only by Western folly and weakness, or by a change of dictatorship or doctrine either in Moscow or in Peking.
Mr. Arthur Holt: The hon. Member is anticipating events a little fast.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: No, I do not think so. I am referring to disunity in the Communist camp, but what has not been brought out in the debate so far is that perhaps there is in this very disunity in the Communist camp a new source of danger to the West. In Latin America, in Asia and in Africa the Communist Powers, China and the Soviet Union, are competing for the allegiance not merely of the Communists but of the uncommitted. China and Russia are each on their mettle to prove who is the lustier anti-imperialist. The cold war may well have ended in Europe, but there is a lukewarm war, as our soldiers well know, being waged by proxy in the mountains, jungles and deserts of other continents.
A gentleman called Mr. Gafurov, Director of the Institute for Asian Peoples in Moscow, has denied that it is Soviet policy to stand for peaceful co-existence between "imperialism and the oppressed peoples". There is still, I believe, a sinister geographical symmetry to Communist strategy. The Communists, whether they are in competition or whether, sometimes, they are in collusion, are still trying from South America to envelop North America, not necessarily by military means, and to roll up Europe from Africa. It is significant, and it symbolises this symmetry of Communist

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strategy, that the Afro-Asian People's Solidarity Organisation has extended its scope to Latin America.
Mao Tse-tung has said:
"Once Asia and Africa are separated from the capitalistic centres of Europe, the European continent will completely collapse economically. This capitulation will be a natural consequence of the above-mentioned events. The crisis in Europe will be followed by complete economic insolvency and industrial catastrophe ".
It was not a colonialist, it was not even a neo-colonialist, but it was a brilliant and farsighted African statesman, President Houphouët-Boigny of the Ivory Coast, who, as long ago as 1959, gave warning of the Communist ideological and political penetration of Black Africa. M. Houphouët-Boigny said:
"Africa, like China, is an under-developed continent. But if Africa is under-populated, China is not; she is over-populated ".
Africa, he concluded, must be the extension, the prolongement of Europe, not the extension of Asia. Mr. Chou En-lai, I understand, is to return to the continent where, on his last visit, he announced that "the prospects of revolution are excellent". His experts are in Brazzaville. They are in Usumbura. They are helping Mulele in the Congo. On 30th June the United Nations Forces are to leave the Congo, regrettably, in much the same state of chaos in which they found it.
In this country, we all welcomed the visit of General Mobutu, who is a brave, talented and enlightened leader. It is our hope that Great Britain, with other European Powers, will be able to assist him with equipment. Now that Katanga, despite the late Dag Hammarskjöld's statement that only token United Nations forces would enter the province, has been duly reduced to the surrounding level of incoherence, people are taking a more dispassionate view of Mr. Moshe Tshombe. Indeed, some people are complaining that he has too many Left-wing friends in Brazzaville. Mr. Tshombe has recently been elected President of the Conakat Party, which is the most important and representative of the Katanga parties, and it may well be that, should he return to the Congo under amnesty, he will be able to join hands with other responsible leaders in Leopoldville.
Soviet Russia, thanks largely to what has happened in the Yemen, about which
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the hon. Member for Leyton spoke, now has a "red route" from the Caucusus, through the Yemen, to the Horn of Africa. The Chinese, apart from the Russians, are busy in irredentist Somalia. In Zanzibar, 300 Tanganyika police confront the People's Liberation Army, which is Russian-trained and armed. It remains to be seen who took over whom when the United Republic of Tanganyika and Zanzibar was proclaimed.
Cuba, Zanzibar and Cyprus—there is a Communist strategy of islands for the penetration of continents. Cairo figures for Moscow, and with Moscow, in the Cyprus situation. It fishes in the troubled waters of the Eastern Mediterranean. I have myself been a critic of United Nations operations, but I pay tribute to those countries and troops who are undertaking this impossibly difficult task in Cyprus at the moment. But I think that the Government were right, and the Opposition were wrong, when the Government preferred that the situation should be handled, so far as international forces were concerned, by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation to which the United Kingdom, Greece and Turkey belong. That is now the past, but N.A.T.O. should not disinterest itself in the future of Cyprus. The southern flank of N.A.T.O. is at stake, and CENTO's sheet anchor is the Royal Air Force squadrons in the sovereign bases.
It was, perhaps, a little unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition chose the moment he did to visit Premier Khrushchev in Moscow. We understand that the right hon. Gentleman wanted to discover Premier Khrushchev's views. Premier Khrushchev had made his views on the Middle East quite clear in his utterances in Egypt and elsewhere. In his opinion, "the unity of the Arab peoples is called upon to serve" the anti-imperialist camp. Arab socialism is a weapon for the overthrow of Arab monarchy, whether in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Yemen or Southern Arabia.
What is remarkable is that it is the West which has been financing the Arab Socialist movement of President Nasser. In 1962, the total foreign aid received by Egypt amounted to 357 million dollars, of which 247 million were provided by the West. Last year, the total foreign aid received by the United Arab

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Republic amounted to 305 million dollars, of which the West provided 257 million and the Communist countries 54 million. The National Bank of Egypt, in a recent report, and the United States Development Agency have concluded that the plight of the people of Egypt is only better than that of the Arabs of the Yemen. In other words, after the Yemen, the real standard of living of the Egyptian people is the worst in the Arab world, despite the substantial aid which has been provided largely by the Western Powers.
This is not entirely the fault of President Nasser. Egypt has a fearful problem of population pressing upon resources. But part of the trouble has been that the aid which Nasser has received from the West has been spent upon armaments, upon military adventures, upon Nazi technicians and propagandists, upon assassinations and attempts at coups d'état, upon terrorism and subversion in the Middle East and Africa.
In speaking about the Yemen, the hon. Member for Leyton said that the Royalists were holding out in the hills. I would say that the Royalist resistance in the Yemen is one of the most remarkable and positive factors in the Middle East in recent years. The Republicans, on the other hand, said the hon. Gentleman, are holding the cities. Of course, it is in the cities where one finds the Egyptian army of occupation.
I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Leyton, who said, in effect, "Let the people of the Yemen decide". Yes, indeed—let them decide their future. But how can they decide their future when there are 30,000 or 40,000 foreign troops on their soil?
The hon. Gentleman urged Her Majesty's Government to accord recognition to the Republican régime. It is true that the United States recognised the Salal Government, but what is sometimes forgotten is that the United States made clear that its recognition should be dependent upon the withdrawal of foreign forces from the Yemen. This is what we should press for. Then, certainly, let the Yemeni people come together. I believe that they would come together. I believe that they may well have been united,
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despite tribal and other differences, against the cruel and repressive occupation by Egyptian military forces.
It has been noticeable in the debate that Nasserism has been less highly regarded on the benches opposite. We owe to Tribune a report of President Nasser's interview with Dr. Gerhard Frey of the neo-Nazi Deutsche National und Soldaten Zeitung, in which President Nasser, according to this report, rejected any "peaceful solution of the Israel problem." Furthermore, President Nasser is quoted as saying:
"the lie about six million murdered Jews is not taken seriously by anyone, not even by the simplest man here in our country."
This is quite a serious report.
Mr. John Hynd: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us the date of that declaration.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: I am quoting from Tribune—not the current issue; the one last week. It is a recent interview. I have not the exact date, but it is recent. I am not sure that the exact date is particularly relevant to the discussion. The views of President Nasser on the question of the "final solution" of Hitler are not important. Whether or not there can ever be a peaceful solution to the Israel problem is the important matter, and I direct the attention of the House to it.
This is very serious, because, although last December Premier Khrushchev called for agreement renouncing the use of force for the settlement of territorial and frontier disputes, an official spokesman of the Soviet Union has made it clear to Sheik Sabah, the Foreign Minister of Kuwait, that Israel's frontiers are not covered by President Khrushchev's declaration. Some people say that there will be a point of danger in the Middle East when Soviet technicians are taken away from Aswan. I do not know, but what I strongly feel is that if the Western Powers leave the Middle East in any doubt about what their intentions would be in the case of an act of aggression, we might find ourselves drifting into very great danger indeed.
I do not want to repeat what has been well said on both sides of the House about the importance to the people of Aden and to our interests of

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the Aden base. The Leader of the Opposition has certainly set a good example to his party in this matter. He has spoken of a British rôle of putting out brush fires across the world. Our forces have been doing this, and doing it with courage, patience and skill. But with this policy of the Leader of the Opposition goes the policy of abandoning the British nuclear deterrent which enables our forces to operate across the world without our being subjected to supreme blackmail.
I would, therefore, sum up the Leader of the Opposition's strategic policy as the chores for the British and the control for the Americans. At this hopeful moment Britain has much to give and much to do, but the Liberal and Labour parties offer the nation an ignoble choice between exposure to Communist blackmail and subservience to a changing America.
8.24 p.m.
Mr. Charles Loughlin: I want to echo the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Berkeley), who regretted the arrangements made for this debate. Perhaps the Prime Minister will bear this in mind and have a word with his right hon. Friend about it. This is a debate when we paint a broad canvas. It is extremely difficult to get down to any detailed examination of specific areas without a degree of criticism of not participating in a debate. My experience in the House has been that when I have taken part in a debate I have usually debated in the fullest possible way, but this evening I want to restrict myself—I ask other hon. Members who have participated to forgive me—to the Aden issue. I, along with other hon. Members, have been trying for some months to get a debate on the situation there and its implications to our people.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) was very reasonable. He argued his case for the recognition of the Yemen and the recognition of the situation in Aden and the necessity of the situation with Aden in a very reasonable, logical way. But I do not think one can be reasonable in dealing with this situation and in dealing with the present Government,
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because if there is a situation in the world with regard to which I am thoroughly ashamed of the actions of the British Government and in the name of the British people, it is the crimes that we have committed in Aden and the Protectorates.
I would caution the Prime Minister about the dangers in pursuing a policy in respect of which he has created a situation in which he has negated every political principle that the Conservative Party and the Labour Party have been advocating for the last 50 years. What have we done? We have imprisoned without trial, denied freedom of assembly, denied political freedom, denied the rights of the trade union movement in every possible way, bombed men, women and children needlessly, and destroyed food in an area where people are near starvation. This is the record of the Conservative Government in the past six months or more.
I know that the question of the base is involved. I know that the question of oil is involved. But in this country we have been advocating the rights of the individual in every possible way—the right of the individual to stand trial if he is charged and the right of the individual to walk around free in the knowledge that the knock on the door will not be the knock of the secret police. We have said that there is no currency in the principle of forcible deportation of people from our territory. This is the type of policy that we have pursued.
I want to sum up the position of Aden and the crimes of the Conservative Government by making reference to the leading article in The Observer on 7th June. This is not a revolutionary political newspaper. It is a sane, very staid newspaper which ranks as a quality newspaper and has a reputation for objective analysis of political issues. The leading article said:
"It is no longer the white man's burden that brings British forces into action in Radfan. It is the fear that unless we hold on to our last imperialist bastions such as Aden we shall lose the advantage of cheap Middle East oil, payable m sterling. What is now happening in Arabia stripped of humbug really means killing persons in their own country for money."
That is the view of one of our leading newspapers about the policy being pursued by the Government. Quite frankly, I am ashamed that anyone can say of

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Britain, of any set of men governing Britain, that this is the policy being pursued.
The Foreign Secretary said that he wished to touch upon the situation in Aden but said so little about it that it would have been as well had he not mentioned it. I cannot say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) was any more explicit. I would have preferred him to say precisely what I am saying about the situation. I do not believe this to be a matter of electoral advantage. It is a moral issue that must be faced by at least one political party in the country.
It may be that our base in Aden is essential. I am not arguing the pros and cons of that question. No one is arguing about the base. It is a false issue. When I was in Aden earlier this year I met representatives of every political school of thought in Aden Colony. No one argued that we should withdraw from the base, not even members of the People's Socialist Party, most of whom were in gaol at the time. Indeed, I had to go into prison to meet the leader of the party, Abdullah A1 Asnag. He and I discussed not only the state of emergency but other issues.
My colleagues and I were concerned about the implications of independence. We discussed with a number of people the possibility of the continuance of Aden as a Colony if the British withdrew. But no one there argues that Britain should get out. They are arguing the simple proposition that Britain should negotiate with representative people of the Colony for the use of the base, just as we have negotiated leases of bases elsewhere in the world.
However, Her Majesty's Government have decided that they are not bothered about democracy, or about the Aden T.U.C. or about the views of the People's Socialist Party, although that party is by far the most influential political organisation in that part of the world. The Government have decided that, whether the Adenese want it or not, there is to be a federation of Aden Colony and the Aden territories. In practice, they are bolstering the sheiks and sultans, and a federation of this kind will never work.
Mr. W. Yates: It is bogus.
Mr. Loughlin: As the hon. Member says, it is bogus. I do not think it possible to operate a federation in which one tries to mix a number of States where representative institutions are primitive in the extreme with a Colony which has a degree of European sophistication and development of democratic political institutions.
In the territories, the concept of subversion is that tribesmen are given political leaflets. That was what one of the sultans told us. He accused the People's Socialist Party of subversion of his tribesmen. I asked for an illustration and he said that it was distributing leaflets among them. We discovered that these were ordinary political leaflets.
If one considers most of the States within the Protectorate, it is true to say—and I want to be careful here—that an element among the tribesmen is politically conscious to a greater degree than for many centuries. At the same time, there is no democratic organisation within the tribal areas. The sultans are intent upon ensuring continuance of a situation in which democratic institutions will not emerge.
I do not want to be unfair, but I must say that, as far as I can see, the policy pursued by the British Government, advised by the High Commissioner—who gave me the impression that he thought he was Lawrence of Arabia—is the continuance of the present situation with the intention of imposing upon Aden Colony not the will of its people but the will of the sultans and sheiks of the Protectorate, bolstered by British power.
In these circumstances, do hon. Members opposite imagine that the political organisations which have emerged in the Colony of Aden are likely to tolerate the imposition of the will of the sultans and sheiks? The penalty for their refusing to do so has been their suppression. The People's Socialist Party and the Aden T.U.C. boycotted the last general election, with the result that only 27 per cent. of the people eligible to vote, even on a restricted register, took part. The people of Aden are determined to ensure that the Colony develops politically as we have developed, that they have trade unions and other political organisations so that they can develop democratically. All they have received in return has been suppression by the British Government.

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In an attempt to ensure that the Federation should continue against the will of the majority of the people of the Colony of Aden and, so far as I could see, against the wishes of an increasing number of tribesmen in the Federation, there is now a conference in London. Of course, there is a political solution to this problem. We cannot continue with our military operations. If it is suppressed, the Radfan tribe will be quiet for a time and the next nutcracker operation will be against the Hadhramaut tribe, for this is an uprising not against Britain but against the ruling sultans and sheiks. I challenge the Government to state the reason for the Radfan uprising.
Mr. W. Yates: The Government say that it was caused by the Yemenis over the border, but was it?
Mr. Loughlin: My information is that the political adviser sent for the headsmen of the Radfan tribe to tell them that they were to come into the Protectorate under the Emir of Dhala. They said that they would be prepared to participate in the Protectorate as they were, under the seven beadsmen, but were not prepared to be subject to the Emir of Dhala. They were told that they were going in under the Emir. This is why they are in revolt, and this is why the Radfan tribesmen have been bombed and why women and children have been killed.
The London conference is a conference of the sheiks and nominated members of the Federal Legislature representing no one but themselves, and yet the one political organisation in the Colony of Aden which has the support of the majority of people is excluded from the conference and not recognised by the British Government.
What is the good of setting up another huge constitutional conference to determine that we shall not have any further general elections; that we shall produce a system of elections which does not involve the franchise at all? What is the use of holding a conference in London to try to solve the problem in that area when the only people who, in the end, will constitute the Government of Aden and the Protectorates are excluded from it and are hounded daily by what have now become the secret police in Aden? There is only one solution to the Aden
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problem. I think that in the end there will be a linking up of South Arabia with the Yemen. I do not think that the Canute-like attitude of the British Government can stop that tide rolling on, no matter what happens.
We have to try to safeguard the interests of the British people, and at the same time give the people of Aden and the Protectorates the opportunity of evolving their own political democratic organisations in the proper way. We have a responsibility to these people. We have been in control of their destinies for 125 or 130 years. We have a responsibility to make good some of the deficiencies which have existed for far too long. We have a responsibility to try to bring to this part of the world social services, education, and decent housing. When I was out there I saw houses which made me ashamed to think that we had been associated with this part of the world for so long. I was ashamed to see the conditions under which some people were living. We have a responsibility, not to the sheiks and sultans, not to the oil companies, but to the people of Aden and the Protectorates, and it is about time that the Government faced it.
8.47 p.m.
Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison: Like the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin), I should like to devote some attention to Aden, and to the civil war in the Yemen and its effect on the South Arabian Federation.
I spent five years in the Aden Government, and I have kept up my interest in that part of the world. I can honestly say that most of the speech of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West was utter nonsense. In fact, it was complete balderdash.
Until the commencement of the Second World War material progress in Aden was fairly slow, and desperately slow in the Protectorates. Thereafter, the area took on a new lease of life, due largely to the expansion of air communications, to the enlargement of the port, which is now used by 500 ships a month, and to the building of the large oil refinery which was begun when Abadan was taken over. A great deal has been done in Aden and in the Protectorates in education, including

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technical and political education. First, the local people took part in their own local government, then in elections for the Legislative Council, and now we have a system of Ministerial responsibility and government on democratic lines.
During this period relations with the Yemen were reasonably good. Tribal raids took place, but they were not serious. The border was never closed, even if such a thing was possible in that wild and mountainous country. Thousands of Yemenis came into Aden to work, and very often as many as 60 per cent. of the patients in the Aden hospitals were Yemenis. This demonstrates clearly the friendship of both Britain and Aden with the Yemen. This is a fact that should be made known in U.N.O. and stressed elsewhere.
It may be that as the sheikdoms and sultanates of the Protectorates were formed into a federation and material advances were made, especially in roads, education and the provision of medical facilities—and such projects as the cotton-growing scheme at Abyan—the Yemenis looked upon these things with concern, perhaps tinged with jealousy, but there was no fundamental hostility.
In recent years, however, the climate of opinion and relations between the two countries have become very much worse. I blame this entirely on President Nasser. He has very grandiose dreams of becoming undisputed leader of the Arab world. No doubt he has his eyes on the oil revenues of the Persian Gulf and elsewhere. Clearly a British base in Aden and the material and political development in the Protectorate stand in the way of his achieving his objectives. It may well be that some years ago Al Bad'r, when he was Crown Prince of the Yemen, had some sympathy with Nasser and his aims, but when Al Bad'r became Imam or King he looked at affairs rather differently. For example, he refused to join the United Arab Republic or to declare his hostility to the kings and other so-called imperialists in the Middle East.
This led to the breaking off of relations between the two, and the engineering of the coup d'état in Sana in September, 1962. Sallal, leader of the rebels acting under Egyptian orders and with
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Egyptian aid, failed to kill or capture the Imam. Since then the war in the Yemen has been continuous. In my view the Government were absolutely correct in refusing to recognise the Yemeni Republicans, and the Americans were much too hasty in doing so; in fact, I do not understand their attitude in the matter. If left alone there is no doubt that the Royalist forces in the Yemen would come out victors.
In the early stages of the civil war both sides received outside help—the Royalists from Saudi Arabia, with arms and money, and the Republicans from Egypt, with money and men. The Saudis have every right to give aid under the treaty of 1956 between Saudi Arabia and the Yemen. The Egyptians have no such treaty, and their actions are nothing more than a gross interference in the internal affairs of another country. Last year an agreement was made between the Saudis and the Egyptians, in an endeavour to localise the war and bring it to an end. The Saudis promised to cease supplying arms and the Egyptians agreed to withdraw their troops, now numbering about 30,000, and to stop bombing villages.
As I see it, and from reports that I have received, the Saudis have stopped giving aid, but Nasser has not withdrawn a single soldier; indeed, he has reinforced and changed his troops. The United Nations mission in the Yemen has proved entirely ineffective. It has posts on the Saudi border and it has done nothing whatsoever to stop indiscriminate bombing by the Egyptians or to ensure that the Egyptian troops are withdrawn. That is the position today. Clearly Britain is involved and must be deeply concerned. While there is war in the Yemen and attempts at subversion among the tribes of the Protectorates it is impossible to build any solid hope of making firm and undisturbed progress in the Protectorates or with the development of the South Arabian Federation.
The question therefore arises, what action should Britain take? In my view, we should make it very clear that there is no question of our moving from Aden or reducing our influence in Southern Arabia but that, on the contrary, we intend to strengthen it. For more than 120 years this country has had close and happy connections with Aden and since the 1880s we have had treaty rights

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and duties with the Protectorate States. Certainly these are not to be interfered with or adversely affected by a paltry dictator from Egypt. There must be no desertion of our friends.
Secondly, in my experience the people in Aden and the Protectorates are very keen on the development of their lands, on making progress with education and in other directions. We should make it clear that we favour this and are prepared to assist with finance and knowledge. Thirdly, I suggest that further contacts, be made with the Saudi Arabian Government to see what suggestions they may have for further assistance to the Royalists force if Egyptian troops are not soon withdrawn. Lastly, we should press at the United Nations for the implementation of Nasser's agreement to withdraw troops. It is absolutely useless being on the defensive in this matter. We should take the initiative and call Nasser to account. I very much hope that my right hon. Friend will take all these points into account when considering his future action in this part of the world.
8.57 p.m.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I wish to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Clark Hutchison), if I understood his closing words, about the United Nations. We are having what I suppose may be the last debate on foreign affairs in this Parliament. I remember that in the first debate after the Second World War, while the sound of the bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was still reverberating in our ears, Lord Avon, speaking at this Dispatch Box, said that the United Nations was humanity's last hope. I want to talk about the United Nations.
What have the Tory Governments done since 1951 to strengthen that hope; To uphold the sanctity of the U.N. Charter as binding law; to make the International Court, the General Assembly and the Security Council the instruments for the settlement of all serious international disputes; to ensure that the United Nations has the money and the manpower to expand its work as the need of international society require; to give powerful, consistent British leadership in building up its general work; and, above all, to pro-
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mote the early and comprehensive disarmament agreement by which, as the Commonwealth Prime Ministers said three years ago, all else will stand or fall?
I will not try to survey the Government's 12-year record—Suez, Cyprus, the volte face on disarmament in 1955, the abortive Summit of 1960 and all the rest. I will try to deal with matters of recent interest; to illustrate the Government's present thinking and their actions as they ask the electors of the country to give them another lease of power.
Everyone has been thinking of South Africa in these last grim days and weeks and of the grave world disaster that is so plainly looming there. Who can believe that for many years Tory Ministers here and Government delegates in New York were proclaiming that apartheid was a matter of domestic jurisdiction, that under Article 2(7) of the Charter South Africa could do exactly what it liked? Who would believe that only three years ago the then Prime Minister was doing his utmost to prevent a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference even discussing the question of South Africa at all?
We can only guess how much this lamentable and shortsighted error has done to stiffen the South African Government in their obstinate resistance to the U.N. Coming from Britain, with our traditions, and our Commonwealth connection, it may have been a very powerful factor in preparing the blood bath we may have to see. And how lamentable it is that even today Britain's condemnation of Friday's great injustice has not been spoken loud and clear.
Looking at Cyprus in 1964, who would believe that year after year Government spokesmen argued in the General Assembly that Cyprus also came under Article 2(7), that it fell within our exclusive domestic jurisdiction and that all others must keep their mouths shut? What a long, ghastly tragedy might have been avoided if, instead of using 40,000 troops in an attempt to keep the Cypriots in perpetual colonial subjection, we had said from the very start that the rest of Article 2 applied; that the matter must and would be settled by peaceful means; that we would neither use nor threaten force. If we had asked the General Assembly to help

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us to make the general political settlement that was required, who knows what might have happened?
As late as Christmas, when trouble flared in Cyprus, my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) urged at once that it should be taken to the U.N. For months, while things got worse and worse from day to day, the Government insisted that N.A.T.O. must be used. When at last they decided to go to the Security Council, I urged on the Foreign Secretary that he should go himself and use his gifts, which we all respect, and the prestige of his great office to seek a settlement. Remembering his work in the Central African Federation, I thought he might succeed. But he gave me the usual stereotyped reply:
"The Government have every confidence in Sir Patrick Dean".
Of course we all have confidence in Sir Patrick Dean. But General Smuts said in 1919 that we did not want a League of Nations that would simply be "a fifth wheel to the diplomatic coach". In the first decade of the League I watched our senior Ministers—Lord Balfour, Sir Austen Chamberlain, Lord Cecil, Arthur Henderson—the eminent father of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson)—working in the League Assembly and Council, settling disputes just as difficult as Cyprus is today. If Cyprus is some day settled it will be by the U.N. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will give the time and effort which he gave to Central Africa to clearing up the tragic mess in Cyprus for which the Government bear so great a share of blame.
Mr. Victor Goodhew: The right hon. Member is surely not suggesting that when this trouble blew up at Christmas the United Nations could have got troops to Cyprus anything like early enough to have prevented a war between Greece and Turkey?
Mr. Noel-Baker: If we had gone at once to the United Nations we could have saved two months. If we had made it plain from the very start that we were giving our full support to the United Nations action, perhaps other Governments would have come forward much more quickly.
Mr. Goodhew rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): The hon. Member must not persist.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I must sit down at 9.30.
The point that I am making applies to all important U.N. work. In the General Assembly, in the Councils, in the Agencies, the I.L.O., F.A.O., W.H.O. and all the rest, our Ministers ought to play a large and leading part. The statement made today by the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade greatly strengthens what I am trying to say. If at Geneva he has saved the economic conference from failure, he has rendered a great service to us all. But no one could have done it without Ministerial authority and prestige, and the whole episode shows, in glaring contrast, the meagre rôle played by Tory Ministers in U.N. affairs.
I am convinced by four decades of watching, studying and taking part in international institutions that what I have said is true at the highest level of Ministerial responsibility as well.
The Prime Minister made a speech the other day to which The Guardian gave a heading "Excessive Summitry". We have not had much summitry in the last 12 years—two Summits, both abortive, leaving no trace of valuable result behind them. Let us have no more Summits of that kind. But the heads of Governments are deeply concerned with international affairs—they have to be. Apart from lesser matters, they hold in their hands the keys of nuclear war. It is grotesque, almost incredible in the jet-aircraft age, that they do not meet at regular, indeed at frequent intervals of time. I am convinced that the plan put forward by the Leader of the Opposition is practical and right. The heads of Governments should lead their delegations to the General Assembly of the U.N. They should meet both within the framework of the U.N. meetings and in private gatherings outside, as they desire. They should personally launch the big new projects which they hope that the U.N. will carry through, leaving other Ministers in the General Assembly and the Secretariat to work out the details and to execute the decisions that may be made. If they do that, they will get to know each other

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and each other's point of view. They will make contact with the leaders of the middle and the smaller Powers, they will gain a picture of world politics as they really are and they will contribute very powerfully to the authority and the efficacy of the United Nations.
Let me turn to another aspect of the Government's policy in the United Nations. How have they treated humanity's last hope when it comes to paying the bills? Let us get it in perspective. The total United Nations expenditure—the budget, the Congo, U.N.E.F., Sinai, Arab refugees, the lot—is 0·2 per cent. of the world expenditure on arms. Our contribution is 0·06 per cent. of our expenditure on arms. Yet how often have we heard complaints from the Conservative benches about this heavy burden?
Let me give some recent and topical examples of the Government's parsimonious approach in matters in which, as an ex-colonial Power, our responsibilities are great. Last year U.N.E.S.C.O. organised a fund to give financial aid to its new African members in education. Education is the very key to their future welfare. The Government gave U.N.E.S.C.O. £35,000. To the F.A.O.'s Freedom from Hunger Campaign, the success of which is vital to our own prosperity in years to come, they gave £55,000.
Mr. Goodhew: What about other countries?
Mr. Noel-Baker: To the F.A.O. World Food Programme they gave five million dollars spread over a period of three years.
Mr. Goodhew rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) must not remain standing.
Mr. Goodhew: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I am sure that he wishes to be fair to the House. Surely he will not pick out our figures in isolation but will compare them with the contributions made by other countries. This is surely an indication of how well-meaning we are in the whole affair.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I am asked to mention Ferranti.
Mr. Goodhew: That is quite irrelevant.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I answer the hon. Member. If other Members of the United Nations do not do well, that is no reason why we should do badly, too. I answer him again. We have not been more generous than many other nations. I will give examples and I will give reasons why we should be more generous ourselves.
I come back to what I was saying. To the F.A.O. World Food Programme the Government gave 5 million dollars spread over a period of three years. To the Children's Fund, to U.N.I.C.E.F., with hundreds of millions of mothers and children in the Commonwealth needing what U.N.I.C.E.F. can give, we contribute £335,000 a year, what we spend on arms in 90 minutes.
Mr. Goodhew: Out of what total?
Hon. Members: Shut up or get out.
Mr. Noel-Baker: As I have said—
Mr. Goodhew: Surely the right hon. Gentleman intends to be fair to the House now. He has had a second opportunity. Will he tell us what is the total out of which this sum is taken? Let us get some idea of perspective. It is no good his lambasting this side of the House and ignoring the rest of the world.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I have given the hon. Member three opportunities, and I will try to be fair to the rest of the House.
Mr. Goodhew: But the right hon. Member has not answered me.
Mr. Noel-Baker: As I did not understand his last intervention I am afraid that I cannot make an answer to it.
Mr. Goodhew rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Goodhew: The right hon. Gentleman is dodging the issue. He should answer the question.
Mr. Noel-Baker: In 1960 we voted—
Mr. Goodhew: Answer.
Mr. Noel-Baker: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will listen, and he will be able to interrupt better if he does.

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In 1960 we voted for the United Nations Development Decade and for the proposition put forward by the Secretary-General, U. Thant, that the Technical Assistance Fund and the U.N. Special Fund should between them be given 150 million dollars a year by 1962 and 300 million dollars a year by 1970. We are nearly half way through the decade. The Government up to today had increased our contribution by 2 million dollars. The total that we give to this stupendous U.N. task is 10 million dollars a year.
Mr. Goodhew: What is the total from the rest of the world?
Mr. Noel-Baker: Today the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade has told us that we are to make an increase.
Mr. Goodhew: The right hon. Gentleman is frightened of giving the figures.
Mr. Noel-Baker: Mr. Speaker—
Mr. Goodhew rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I am waiting for the hon. Member to begin to listen.
Mr. Goodhew: I am waiting for the answer. What are the figures for the rest of the world?
The Prime Minister: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is being less than usually fair. Therefore, my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) is certainly entitled to make the protest that he is making. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that in our total support of the United Nations we fulfil every assessment, that our support of the United Nations is second only to that of the United States and that the Soviet Union and the Communist bloc give no support of any kind at all.
Mr. Noel-Baker: Of course I shall deal with the Prime Minister's point. Let me say at once that if the Communists give no support, that is a reason why we should give the more. I was saying that the total which we have given to the U.N. task of the Special Fund and Technical Assistance has been 10 million dollars a year. Today the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade
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told us that we are to make an increase. It is a death-bed repentance, and we will wait to see what it may mean in cash.
I take one other example, which the Prime Minister will certainly recall, the sorry story of our contribution to President Kennedy's U.N. bonds. Up to now we have bought 80 per cent. of our appropriate share, the share based on our assessment for the U.N. budget. The United States has bought 150 per cent. of its share. Italy has bought 200 per cent. The Scandinavian countries have bought 200 per cent. up to 250 per cent.
Mr. Goodhew: Let us have the other figures.
Mr. Noel-Baker: I know that the Government make the reply which the Prime Minister has given and which I foresaw.
Mr. David James: Would the right hon. Gentleman indicate the scale of Labour munificence in these international affairs if the Labour Party were to take office?
Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid I was unable to hear what the hon. Member said.
Mr. James: May I repeat it?
Mr. Speaker: If the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to give way, the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. David James) must resume his seat.
Mr. James: On a point of order. The right hon. Gentleman said that he could not hear my question. Surely he was inviting me to repeat it?
Mr. Speaker: If that was so, the right hon. Gentleman withdrew his invitation by seeking to continue his speech. Mr. Philip Noel-Baker.
Mr. Noel-Baker: Mr. Speaker, I was most anxious to hear the hon. Member, because I went to Moscow with him and I have for him a great regard, but I am afraid, in view of what the clock is doing, that I must get on. I was talking about President Kennedy's bonds, and the answer which the Government make when we say that they do not do very well by the financial needs of the United Nations. The Government say, "Yes,

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we paid for the Congo, even when we have disagreed with what the U.N. has done. We have paid for Sinai, for the Arab refugees, and we are the second-highest contributor to U.N. funds". Of course, we are the second highest contributor. We pay not only for ourselves but for the remnant of the British Empire. We are the second richest country in the world. Much of what the U.N. is doing is helping to liquidate the responsibilities which we have had in times; gone by. Of course, we are the second largest contributor. But we do not do well enough.
And as unfortunate as the miserable figures which I have quoted has been the whole attitude of the Treasury delegate at the Fifth Budget Committee of the General Assembly—questioning every new item of expenditure, making all the smaller, poorer Powers feel that we grudge every dollar and that whenever we can we want to cut the budget down. Either the United Nations is humanity's last hope or it is nothing. If it is; humanity's last hope against nuclear war, its budget and expenditure must expand rapidly year by year.
Mr. Goodhew: Britain is always wrong, according to the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Noel-Baker: It is fantastic to think that the United Nations' peacekeeping functions in the Congo, Cyprus or elsewhere should be hampered, delayed or limited by the lack of money. I wish that we could make the whole world see, by strong, new British leadership, that we regard our contribution to the United Nations work as the most productive of all the public expenditure we make. If we did that, we would help to solve the United Nations' biggest problem, be on far stronger ground against the Russians, and we would revitalise the whole of the United Nations' essential work—
Mr. Goodhew: The right hon. Gentleman is certainly setting a good example.
Mr. Noel-Baker: The United Nations will never have adequate resources for these vast social and economic tasks until we get disarmament. And on this subject I still believe that what the Prime Minister said two years ago to the Committee of Eighteen is the only sensible approach. I quote his words, to which
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my right hon, and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton referred. Speaking of the Draft Treaties laid before the Committee by the United States and Soviet Governments, the Prime Minister said:
"All the elements of a Disarmament Treaty are in the plans before us. The task of the Committee is to move towards general and complete disarmament as quickly as possible, from nought per cent. to 100 per cent. We on the British side intend to keep open minds. We support the United States plan, and we helped to frame it. We are not pressing specifically or exclusively for its adoption. What we must find is a master agreement, drawing on what is best in all the proposals before us".
He went on:
"We begin to see much in common between the Russian and the American plans. If we can work on this common ground, we should be able to produce a master plan of our own, which could lead to the physical destruction of weapons, beginning now, and going on till the business is complete without a check".
This afternoon the Foreign Secretary called that a dangerous approach. The Prime Minister will settle that one with him tomorrow afternoon. Certainly our delegates in the Committee of Eighteen have thought it dangerous. I search their speeches and I find nothing to suggest that they have tried to take the best of both plans. I find that 90 per cent. of all they say is trying to prove that the Western plan, in all particulars, is right and that the Soviet plan, in all particulars, is wrong.
I give some trifling but significant examples from the last few months. At the beginning of March, after six weeks of effort, the American and Soviet co-chairmen reported that they could not agree on an agenda for the Committee—on the order in which a dozen or so collateral measures should be discussed. Of course, it did not matter in what order they were discussed. If the Committee had met every day instead of on two mornings, from 10.30 to 12—a three-hour week—it could easily have discussed them all. But when the co-chairmen reported their fantastic failure, the Soviet delegate proposed that the full Committee might perhaps take up the question of the agenda. The British delegate opposed the Soviet suggestion. He insisted that the agenda be sent back again to the co-chairmen, who, in six weeks, had certainly exhausted all they had to say. That

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seemed to me, when I read it, to be cold war, and a rather shocking waste of time.
The Soviet delegate proposed as a "collateral" measure that the Committee should recommend to all the Governments a budgetary reduction of from 10 per cent. to 15 per cent. in what they paid for arms. I doubt myself whether that was a practicable proposal, but it had considerable support. The British delegation, of course, was against it, and when the Soviet bloc proposed a compromise resolution simply inviting all Governments to reduce their armament budgets, the British delegate rejected even that extremely modest plan.
Let me deal very briefly with three important points from this year's debates. After the Moscow Test-Ban Treaty, I asked a leading member of the Government what he hoped for next to keep up what is called "momentum". "Observers", he replied. "Good", I said, "But you will never get observers unless you give some armament restrictions in exchange ". Well, the Government have offered absolutely nothing in exchange. Their idea of keeping up momentum was to wait nine months and then to put in a paper, ENDC 130, dated 26th March, entitled "Observation Posts"; a paper so general, so thin, so ambiguous that it could evoke nothing but suspicion in any Soviet breast. If that is their idea of negotiation on observers, they had better start again.
I am afraid I think that the British delegates have shown a singular defeatism about Mr. Gromyko's offer to retain a minimum nuclear deterrent until the end of the third stage of the disarmament process. It was Americans at a Pugwash Conference—I was there—who first proposed it. It was from them that the Soviet Foreign Minister took it up. Throughout the world it has been recognised as a very promising plan. In the Committee, General Burns of Canada has made a sustained effort to face the real difficulties and to highlight the real merits of the plan. He has had no help from the British delegates at all.
On 7th April last—I have it here—the Minister of State made a speech in which he almost reduced the argument to farce. He made it plain to my mind,
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and certainly to the Soviet's, that he was not taking Mr. Gromyko seriously at all. If he thinks that I do him an injustice he will say so; but I ask, if he wants a minimum nuclear deterrent, why does he not put forward a plain concrete proposal which will iron out the difficulties he sees in what the Russians have proposed? It is now two years since this plan was first put forward. Spinning words and asking questions does not help to get a practical result.
By far the most important event in the Committee in 1964 has been President Johnson's freeze. I think the Russians have been very wrong not to give it serious consideration; but I must say that I think they have been encouraged by us. Of course, as on other matters, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister of State gave the President's proposal a verbal welcome in the Committee of 18. But the Minister of Defence said in the House of Commons, with ferocity, that it would not apply to us. He said:
"There is no question and no proposal whatsoever that the United Kingdom should in any circumstances forgo the five Polaris submarines."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1964; Vol. 690, c. 481.]
The Prime Minister went even further. On 17th March he said that, of course, he was ready to discuss the President's plan, but he went on to say:
"…it will not affect our Polaris programme or the American programme of missile construction."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 17th March, 1964; Vol. 691, c. 1179.]
Mr. Fisher, the President's spokesman, said in Geneva that the plan would stop the construction of 1,000 American I.C.B.M.s, of any B70 bombers, of any more B58s or B52s. It would halt the planned improvement of the B58s and B52s, and the introduction of the Polaris A3. Mr. Fisher claimed, as I think rightly, that it could be an immense and an immediate step towards the ending of the spiralling arms race in the most costly and most dangerous weapons that exist.
The Prime Minister says that it would not affect the American programme, and that in any case, by jingo, it would not apply to us. What has happened to the fine hopes of taking the best of both plans, and making a master plan for physical disarmament, beginning now, which he voiced so eloquently in Geneva two years ago? Alas, it is all too plain.

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Having reached the highest point of power, where he could make his will prevail, he has simply given up to the forces of inertia that oppose him.
President Johnson makes new proposals; the Prime Minister has surrendered in advance.
"Certainly we should go on with our Polaris programme…"
the Prime Minister told us, thereby postponing disarmament for at least eight years, and he added:
"We shall not arrive at an international disarmament scheme in the forseeable future."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th April, 1964; Vol. 693, c. 232.]
He also said:
"…I am not in control of the pace of the Committee of 18's deliberations."—[OFFICIAI. REPORT, 17th March, 1964; Vol. 691, c. 1180.]
No, indeed, he is not. His delegates have hardly played a useful part at all. On what, three years ago, the Commonweath Prime Ministers called the greatest and most urgent question in human affairs, Britain's voice has sunk to a timorous, plaintive whisper. And that is one reason why his fellow-countrymen will turn the Prime Minister out in three months from now.
9.32 p.m.
The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Peter Thomas): I should like first to add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) on a maiden speech which for content and for the eloquent way in which it was delivered was undoubtedly admired and appreciated by all who heard it. My hon. Friend brings to the House considerable experience and knowledge. I personally would fully endorse his view on the paramount aim of strengthening in every way the human, material and political ties which exist between this country and our closest Ally, the United States. I fully endorse also what he said about Senator Fulbright. All those who know him would agree that he expresses admirably the new and growing views on international affairs which are abroad in the United States. I am sure that everyone on all sides of the House looks forward to hearing my hon. Friend again.
After having started on that happy note perhaps I can say this about the
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speech of the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker). The right hon. Gentleman is a person who is held in high regard not only in this House but far afield. I personally have held him in high regard on many matters for a long time but, and I am saying this very frankly, tonight I do not think that he was up to his usual fair standard. I was surprised that he took this opportunity to exaggerate, with venom, matters which might be at issue between us. I was surprised, for instance, that he used phrases like, "a tragic mess in Cyprus today for which the Government bear so large a share of the blame". I am sure that he will, on reflection, wish that he had not exaggerated the situation to that extent.
Mr. P. Noel-Baker Mr. P. Noel-Baker indicated dissent.
Mr. Thomas: In the same way, what the right hon. Gentleman said about United Nations finances went, as I am sure he will accept, beyond that which is normal in a debate when one wishes to say that the Government should do more. In many respects, indeed, we should like to give more to United Nations agencies. But to suggest, as the right hon. Gentleman did, that the amount we were giving was paltry was quite wrong. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out, we are the second largest contributor, and our contributions to the United Nations funds and agencies are much welcomed by all members of the United Nations and bear very good comparison with those of other countries.
I wish to apologise to the House for not being able to be present for quite a large part of the debate. However, I heard many of the speeches, and I can say—I hope that I shall be accepted as doing so without any degree of patronage—that there has been a high standard of debate on this the first day of our two-day foreign affairs debate. Various questions have been asked. I shall attempt to answer some of them, but I cannot answer them all. There is another day tomorrow. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be speaking, and winding up will be my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.
I take, first, one or two of the matters raised in particular by the right hon.

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Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker). He asked two questions about Europe. He asked for an assurance that, in any new negotiations for entry into the Common Market, we would not be committed to the terms of the previous negotiations. Second, he asked for a pledge that, in any new negotiations, Commonwealth trade would not be prejudiced.
In response to the first very hypothetical question, I can only say that it is pointless to talk of the terms of negotiations when none are in sight. As to the second, we should at all times do our best to preserve Commonwealth trade to the maximum possible extent. Obviously, no Conservative Government would want to curtail trade with the Commonwealth or with any of our trading partners. But I do not see the value of trying to express this objective in the terms suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. He knows very well that, in a free economy, one cannot predetermine levels of trade by pledges or by any other means. Trading patterns are continually changing. Some traditional markets, such as that for cotton textiles in India, disappear, and new ones take their place.
The Commonwealth and the Common Market are not, and never have been, regarded as alternatives by this Government. One of our highest tasks has been to foster the Commonwealth, to preserve its values and to safeguard the interests of its members; but precisely how these objectives can best be achieved in a set of hypothetical negotiations at an unspecified date in the future is, again, something which can only be decided at the time and in the light of all the relevant conditions.
At the moment, it is obvious that the basis for further negotiations does not exist. Moreover, it is not possible to foresee the precise situation in which a new opportunity might arise. In the circumstances, I suggest that it would be a waste of the time of the House to discuss hypothetical terms. If a further opportunity does arise, then will be the time to consider the conditions. In our view, it must be for Parliament as a whole to decide, in the light of all the circumstances at the time, what those conditions should be.
Mr. H. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that before the last General Election Ministers gave a pledge that they would do nothing in any negotiations to interfere with the free entry into the United Kingdom of Commonwealth food and raw materials. Since we are at a time in our history when we have to look five years ahead—all of us—and we are throwing questions across the Floor at one another, what my right hon. Friend was asking the Prime Minister was whether they will repeat that pledge in regard to any negotiations which might have to be undertaken in the new Parliament if by any chance right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite get back.
Mr. Thomas: No, Sir. At the time when these things were said, negotiations were either taking place or about to take place. The question is wholly hypothetical at the moment because no negotiations are in sight.
The right hon. Member for Smethwick also asked about the multilateral force. He said that we have now had an opportunity to go into this matter and that we should come clean, I think he said, or, perhaps the expression was, tell the truth about the Government's policy towards the multilateral force. I can only repeat what my right hon. Friend said earlier today. We have agreed to take part in an objective examination of the American proposal for a mixed-manned nuclear force without commitment as to our eventual participation in such a force. That is still our position, and there is no mystery about it. Our eventual decision will depend on a number of factors, not least the shape of the proposal when the negotiations are completed. But one thing that one can say quite clearly is that, whatever these proposals are, it is clear that it is not intended that they should involve dissemination.
Another matter raised was our attitude towards the Rivonia trial. Our attitude was described yesterday at Question Time by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. However, perhaps I can just mention the charge made by the right hon. Gentleman that there is a discrepancy between our favourable vote on last autumn's resolution in the Assembly and our abstention in the Security Council last week. There is no

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discrepancy. As my right hon. Friend said yesterday, we abstained last week because of the timing of the resolution and the possible adverse effects which its passing at that time and our vote in favour of it might have had on the verdicts at the trial. It is quite clear that these considerations did not exist at the General Assembly eight months ago.
The right hon. Gentleman also raised the subject of trade with Eastern Europe. In particular, he asked whether we had applied a veto and so prevented British firms from competing with American firms to supply a nuclear power reactor to Rumania. This is not so. Rumanian interest in a reactor became known to us on a visit of experts here early in the year. At that time, as they were told, in the present circumstances an export licence could not be granted. That was a pure statement of fact.
Since then the Rumanians have voted for the adoption of the International Atomic Energy Agency's safeguard scheme for large power reactors. This simplifies the removal of the present embargo on the export of the plant, and, as we have made clear, we favour seeking modification of the embargo to facilitate the export of individual reactors subject to proper safeguards. But until the countries concerned in the embargo see fit to lift it, no deal can be made. This applies equally to American firms, which are thus in no favourable position over British firms. I certainly agree with the right hon. Member for Smethwick about the value of trade with Eastern Europe generally. We should certainly seize the present opportunity for increasing both trade and contacts. I am happy to say that current figures show that we are already moving forward.
I have a quarter of an hour before the end of today's proceedings, and I should like to refer to the second part of the speech of the right hon. Member for Derby, South about disarmament. It gives me the opportunity to state once again that disarmament is one of the over-riding aims of our policy. We are pledged to work for it, we have worked for it, we are working for it and we will work for it with determination and zeal.
Our ultimate objective, as the right hon. Gentleman says, is an agreement for general and complete disarmament
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which will put an end for all time to the costly and perilous competition in armaments. I agree with him that this competition reflects the long accumulation of distrust and suspicion that today divides nations. It also constitutes one of the main causes of the divisions between them. We believe, just as passionately as he does, that disarmament is a worth while goal towards which we must all strive. We say that, incidentally, not in a spirit of idealism. We say it because, in the nuclear climate of today, it is the sanest form of realism.
One thing is clear. The task of reaching a comprehensive disarmament agreement can never be an easy one. It is, of course, a revolutionary objective. Success would be without precedent in human history. It is, therefore, misleading and a disservice to all those engaged in the complexities of the disarmament negotiations to minimise the problems that face us or to suggest that there are simple solutions to them and, indeed, to show irritation and to some extent venom when progress is somewhat slow.
Disarmament raises far-reaching issues involving our nation's security. Decisions in such matters must be weighed with considerable care and great deliberation. Despite the vital importance of our ultimate objective, about which we are all agreed, we must not allow ourselves in our enthusiasm to take risks and gamble with the security of the nation. To do so would be criminal folly.
There are, therefore, serious obstacles to rapid progress. This does not mean that I am pessimistic. In spite of our understanding of these difficulties, we approach our task at Geneva of working for comprehensive disarmament with patience, detemination and real hope. Meanwhile, in the shorter term, we are continually searching for areas of lesser agreement, such as collateral measures which will lead to lessening of international tension and pave the way for wider agreement.
The right hon. Gentleman appeared to urge that, in order to make progress on disarmament, we should take the initiative at Geneva and put forward a compromise British plan which would, so to speak, split the difference between the United States and Soviet plans

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already on the table. We doubt the wisdom of this approach.
The suggestion that Britain should take an independent initiative overlooks the fact that we were closely associated with the preparation of the American plan. In such a vital matter as disarmament, we must move forward in concert with our Allies if we are not to undermine the structure of the alliance on which the security of the West is based.
When one is in Government, it does not mean that one loses ideas or the desire to take initiatives. It means that it is one's responsibility to put these ideas forward first between the Allies and to explore them before one puts them forward before the world. That is what we are doing. We have a continuing series of consultations with our Allies.
When I was in Geneva last week, Mr. Zorin came to see me and we had a long talk. I took the opportunity to make clear to him that we, as members of an alliance which has proved of the greatest value to us in preserving peace, could not be expected to take an initiative contrary to the policies of that alliance. Such an initiative would be of no practical value in reaching agreement. In any case, the Western plan offers a sound basis for negotiation. It is our aim to draw the Soviet Government into a detailed discussion of the issues arising out of the two plans and to try to reach areas of common agreement with them.
It was in that sense that Mr. Dean Rusk, for instance, spoke at the beginning of the conference of a
"master agreement for general and complete disarmament, drawing upon the best of all proposals present in those two programmes submitted and in those which come from other quarters".
Later on, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said something similar. I take it that that is what right hon. Gentlemen opposite have in mind when they call for a master plan.
It is quite clear that when they spoke as they did my right hon. Friend and Mr. Dean Rusk intended to summon the conference to honest negotiation and did not intend for us to put forward a compromise plan which would overlook the fundamental differences which underlie
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the major questions at issue in this conference. There are differences on the key questions of the reduction of nuclear delivery vehicles, verification and peace keeping, and these are differences which, unless the Soviet attitude changes, afford little opportunity for compromise.
I have spoken of the need for determination and great patience. It is worth recalling that the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty of August, 1963, was preceded by more than four and a half years of negotiation at Geneva. We endured the shock of the Soviet decision in 1961 to resume tests, on a massive scale, in the atmosphere, and we continued to negotiate. In August, 1962, a British and American proposal to end nuclear tests in the three environments without international verification was put forward at Geneva, and for nearly a year was disregarded by the Soviet Government. Yet, in 1963, we were able to achieve a treaty which had precisely the result which we put forward. We should do well to remember this at all times when we find agreement with the Russians difficult to reach and our proposals apparently unacceptable to them.
As my right hon. Friend has said, we believe that the prospects of success in the disarmament negotiations would be much better if the conference agreed to adopt more businesslike procedures. Something is needed besides the general discussions which have so far occupied the conference. These have identified the questions at issue. Now we need to get down to informal discussions of these problems and possible solutions to them.
We have therefore urged the establishment of informal working groups at the conference. There has been considerable support for this idea from the representatives of the non-aligned Powers as well as from the Western delegations. Let us hope that during the present session the Soviet Union and its allies will change their attitude and see the merits of such an approach. I am happy to say that there are signs that they might. At the same time, it is essential not to lose sight of certain key principles. Luckily, there is a wide measure of international agreement on these principles. They were set out both by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers in 1961 and by the United States and the Soviet Union in their joint statement later that year. My right hon.

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Friend restated them when he visited Geneva at the end of February.
The difficulties which arise are due to a dispute about how the principles should be applied. To settle these difficulties is the fundamental task of the Disarmament Conference, but I am convinced that no international disarmament treaty could be agreed if it failed to observe these principles, and perhaps I should remind the House of them.
First, there is the principle of balance. A disarmament plan must be phased and balanced in such a way that at no stage does any State gain an advantage. This may sound simple, but I am sure that on reflection right hon. Gentlemen will agree with me that the complexity of modern, armouries is such that it is no easy task to work out a scheme which does justice to the interests of all.
Secondly, there is verification. There must be strict and effective international verification and control of the disarmament process. Again, this may sound simple. Indeed, I am happy to say that the Russians have admitted the need for it in principle. But, again, there are wide differences about how much verification is needed to be effective and about the points at which verification constitutes a danger to national security. This is a problem which demands much thought and study. We, like the Americans, are giving close attention to it and we hope to produce proposals soon, but these will not succeed unless the Russians are prepared to relax their present rigid attitude and to start to discuss possible compromises.
Thirdly, there is peace keeping which was mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu). Disarmament must be accompanied by reliable arrangements for the maintenance of international peace and security in a disarmed world. Today we are increasingly aware of the need for strengthening the peace-keeping capabilities of the United Nations. How much greater, then, will be the need when nations discard their weapons? An effective and reliable peace-keeping force will provide the only answer.
To those that I have mentioned I would add just one more, and that is building up confidence. Disarmament
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is not an objective which can be pursued in isolation. It forms part of our foreign policy as a whole. Progress in solving the grave political problems on the international scheme would certainly help create the right atmosphere in disarmament negotiations. The reverse is also true.
The successes that we have achieved during the last 12 months—the hot line, the partial nuclear test ban, the agreement not to place nuclear weapons in outer space, and the declaration on the cut-back of the production of fissile material—have all contributed greatly to the lessening of tension.
All these agreements, of course, are limited in scope. Even taken together they are in. no sense a substitute for disarmament, but they are steps in the right direction. They have brought a new feeling of hope, respect and confidence into the relations between East and West, not only for disarmament matters, but on a much wider plane, and I agree with those who have spoken today that the momentum must not be lost.
The best hope of moving forward now lies, as I have mentioned, in the field of confidence-building collateral measures. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has already mentioned those on which we particularly hope to make progress.
The right hon. Member for Derby, South talked about the minimum nuclear deterrent, and the right hon. Member for Smethwick, too, said that the Russians were very interested in the idea of a minimum nuclear deterrent, or what they call a nuclear umbrella. So are we. It is a stage which we must reach in the course of executing the disarmament treaty, though not at such an early stage of disarmament as the Russians sometimes suggest.
We welcome the Russians' apparent willingness to explore the question, and we hope to make progress, but it is far from certain that this will be swift. I had the impression from talking to Mr. Zorin last week that the Russians might insist that our discussions in detail and in depth of this question will take place only if we discuss, their own type of umbrella. This begs the question. Any discussion in depth must take account of all points of view, and, as the right hon. Gentleman

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knows, Western ideas are significantly different. We must ensure that they have an equal part in the negotiations.
In his opening speech my right hon. Friend referred to the importance of an agreement on the non-dissemination of nuclear weapons, and to the Soviet objection. Such an agreement has been a major objective of Her Majesty's Government's policy. I can assure the House that this remains our objective. We recognise that if the Russians continue to argue that the multilateral force is an obstacle to agreement our hopes of progress are blocked, but the fact that the Russians say this does not make them right. We are still hopeful that they can be satisfied that any arrangements which may be made for a multilateral force would be compatible with the non-dissemination principle, and that only such arrangements are envisaged. As long as the M.L.F. provides, and is seen to provide, for the nuclear Powers in it to retain the right of veto over the use of nuclear weapons in the force, no question of dissemination can arise.
As for the Russians, we ask them earnestly to consider their own interests once more. We hope that on reflection they will perceive that, whatever they may think about the M.L.F., their interests would be best served by an agreement on non-dissemination. That would substitute a precise international agreement for the present de facto coincidence of policies and allay their anxieties, whether well founded or not, about the possible evolution of the M.L.F.
The session at Geneva has just begun. We have hopes of progress from it. There is much work for us to do. We for our part are determined to make the best of the opportunities for progress in the months ahead. If all our partners in the negotiations were of a similar mind, the outlook would be good.
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

ROADS (EAST ILSLEY BYPASS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Peel.]
10.10 p.m.
Mr. Airey Neave: Tonight I wish to discuss the section of the road known as the A.34 which passes through my constituency from East Ilsley to the Southern Bypass near Oxford. I know that my hon. Friend has many Adjournment Motions of this kind to answer, but I am sure he will agree that this is a serious one, to the extent that it concerns the village of East Ilsley and the whole length of the A.34 to which I have referred.
The section that I am discussing starts just south of East Ilsley and continues through the dreadfully congested streets of Abingdon to the northern beginning of the Oxford southern bypass. Along it an increasing volume of traffic, particularly heavy commercial vehicles, passes to and from the North and Southampton. The total length of the A.34 to Manchester is 198½ miles, and although the section to which I have referred is a small one it suffers considerably from this traffic.
It is extremely dangerous in many places. It is a fast road over the Downs, in the Berkshire section, and the times of peak traffic to and from the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell make it exceptionally so, where it runs to Abingdon and Oxford. The proposed bypassing of Abingdon is one of the subjects that I shall mention tonight, but since the case of East Ilsley is much more immediate and serious I will begin with that village.
A local newspaper—the Oxford Mail —has described the situation in the village as "a scandal". I quite agree. Indeed, the damage caused by vehicles entering the village by what is known as Star Hill, from the south of the village, gives the main street the appearance of having undergone shellfire. No one can blame the anger of the villagers; many of their houses are being swiftly demolished, and those villagers who remain are extremely anxious for the safety of their families. The insurance companies are having their doubts about the risk to property in the village. I hope that my hon. Friend realises the state of real exasperation at

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the delay in making decisions about this proposed bypass. That is what gives rise to this part of the Adjournment Motion.
On 9th May, at 6.40 p.m., a ten-ton lorry wrecked the house of a Mr. Serralls, who, with his five children, lived in a house called "Wheatsheaf"—I believe that at one time it was an inn—part of the way down Star Hill. Luckily the family were in the garden at the time and escaped, but they were rendered completely homeless. I saw the house next day. The whole front had been completely destroyed. The danger of this road is that it descends sharply at that point, on a right-hand bend, into the narrow village street.
Two days before this a goods tanker, also travelling north in the same direction as the vehicle that destroyed Mr. Serralls' house, finally wrecked the "Lamb" public house, now disused. The other half had been totally destroyed six months before. As a result of my visit on 9th May, I had a look at the police reports which were provided for me. They showed that since 22nd October, 1962, no fewer than 17 accidents had occurred in the village involving personal injury or death. A great many others that had occurred, but which were not reported because personal injuries were not involved did considerable damage to property. Indeed, some villagers cannot sleep at night on account of the threat to their lives and properties
If the by pass, as my hon. Friend will agree, is the solution, what can be done in the meantime. Most of the vehicles referred to in these accidents were going much too fast. The entrance to the village requires warning notices of a quite exceptional kind, for the villagers clearly live in terror of a recurrence of these accidents. One of them is already building home-made defences to protect his children on the sharp slope in question in the village street to which I am referring.
On 13th May, in answer to no fewer than eight Written Questions which I put to my hon. Friend about the A.34 at East Ilsley, he stated, among other things, that the 30-mile an hour limit was well observed. If my hon. Friend will forgive me for saying so, I think that he was badly advised to make that answer. The speed of vehicles is why
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the accidents are occurring at East Ilsley. The place, particularly the steep slope I mentioned from Star Hill down into the village, is so dangerous that he should consider seriously ordering a special speed limit of 20 miles an hour on account of this rapid descent.
I mention this because the section of the A.34 to which I am referring is a fairly fast road from East Ilsley towards Abingdon, and if anyone living in the street loses his life as a result of what is going on now it will be certainly largely due to vehicles coming down the hill too fast. It is an exceptional danger and requires exceptional measures, including, perhaps, special signs reading, for traffic descending the hill, "Very dangerous descent", or for traffic going the other way, "Very dangerous entrance to this village". I am sure that the Berkshire county police would co-operate to see that such a speed limit was observed.
Since the accident on 9th May, the county council has installed traffic lights on a one-way system. This has done some good, but it has not prevented serious accidents. I wonder whether the Minister would assure me that the lights will stay there until the bypass is completed? Will he also ask the divisional road engineer, in co-operation with the Berkshire County Council, to ensure that the lights are three-phased as the present two-phased lights were rather hurriedly placed there after the accident of 9th May?
The history of the bypass project for East Ilsley is really rather deplorable. It dates from well before the war, and the route has often been amended. Various orders have been made since the time when I first raised the matter with my hon. Friend's Department. In 1959 I was told that the completion of this bypass was possible in 18 months. In November, 1962, in answer to a Written Question, the Minister told me that work might start in the autumn of 1963. This statement has particularly angered the villages of East Ilsley, because no such thing has happened.
In August, 1963, the Minister issued the necessary Side Road Orders in connection with the route of this bypass and correspondence ensued with the county council. Some objections from

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landowners and comments from the East Ilsley Parish Council were made in January of this year have received no reply from anybody. I went to East Ilsley on Sunday last and was informed then that such objectors as there are had had no contact whatever with the Ministry about this matter since the publication of the Order in August, 1963. That seems to me a most unsatisfactory position. The Ministry has known for years that East Ilsley was an urgent matter. Will my hon. Friend give some reasons for the delay and say when the work will commence as some of these objections may not in effect be very substantial? They no doubt will be taken into consideration, but I want to know why since 1963 no one has pursued with any energy the question of land acquisition.
In order to give my hon. Friend the maximum time to reply, I now go to the rest of A.34 and the southern bypass. There have been discussions about a new route for this road east of Abingdon. They have gone on for a considerable time. Now they have been complicated by the re-appearance in the discussion of an alternative route to the west—a western bypass of Abingdon. The county council. Abingdon Council, myself and others were under the impression that a western bypass was not still the subject of discussion. We had indicated for several years past our preference for the eastern route. Abingdon Council, the county council and other local councils affected on the section of A.34 referred to from Chilton to the southern bypass, are in favour of the eastern diversion of A.34 and would very much prefer it.
What they want from my right hon. Friend the Minister is a decision. It is not understood what the factors are which caused the Ministry once again to survey a western bypass. We were led to believe that the western bypass was no longer under discussion. Can we be told when a decision will be made about which side of Abingdon the road is to go? There is no question that this is causing maximum inconvenience to local authorities and others. My hon. Friend will remember a question I asked on this point. Could not a decision be announced before the draft Order as to
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whether the road is to go east or west of Abingdon? Obviously the details of the actual line of the route will have to be the subject of the draft Order, but can my hon. Friend say this summer or as soon as possible which side of Abingdon he intends the road to go?
The inconvenience caused is obvious. What is less obvious is the statement in reply to a Written Question I put the other day that the construction of the 2,000 megawatt power station at Didcot will not affect the priority of this diversion of A.34. I should like to know more about what effect my hon. Friend thinks it will have on the existing roads in the neighbourhood. I hope that my hon. Friend will soon relieve East Ilsley from its nightmare and give us a firm statement tonight about the beginning of this bypass which has been the subject of so much discussion and so many assurances since long before the last election. Will he insist on his Department giving a decision on the Abingdon diversion of A.34?
10.14 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): I am glad to be having this debate with my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave). I hope it may help to iron out any difficulties or misunderstandings which may have arisen in the past to which my hon. Friend referred in his speech. My hon. Friend has been very active in his championship of the need to improve A.34. Quite apart from all he has done in the past to represent very forcibly and persuasively—and also reasonably—his constituents' interests, he has recently asked no fewer than eight Parliamentary Questions and has also written at length urging the need for speedy action.
I do not complain in the least of this spate of activity. I understand quite well how he and his constituents feel, but I am only sorry that he is not unique. If he were it would be quite easy to help him, but unfortunately there are many other roads just as hard pressed as the one in which he is interested. For example, only last night I was answering a somewhat similar Adjournment debate about another road, the A. 12 in another part of the

1249
country. It is because there is this competition for treatment that improvements on my hon. Friend's road have still to come.
I know that, as he said, a special sense of urgency has been added to his campaign for better conditions on the A.34 by the recent accidents which have occurred at East Ilsley. My right hon. Friend and I were extremely sorry to read of these accidents, and we can well understand the sense of fear and frustration which has gripped the village and to which my hon. Friend has referred so graphically. It would perhaps not be appropriate for me to venture an opinion now as to the extent to which bad driving may or may not have contributed to these accidents, but my right hon. Friend fully appreciates the importance of getting the bypass, to which my hon. Friend referred, built as quickly as he possibly can.
As for the timing of the work on the bypass, to which my hon. Friend referred at some length, I am sure that he realises that one of the causes of delay in road improvement is the need to follow the statutory procedures which Parliament has laid down for dealing with this subject. These procedures can be galling to those who are anxious to improve matters quickly, but we must remember the interest of householders and, indeed, the interest of the whole local community, which can easily be affected by a new route. There is here an inevitable clash of interest, and to see that justice is done to those who want improvements and to those who own houses or property naturally takes time.
In this instance my hon. Friend will be glad to know that my right hon. Friend has decided to overrule objections to the making of the Side Roads Order under Section 9 of the Highways Act, 1959. A letter informing objectors of this decision should have been received by them today, and the Order will be effective on 23rd June. I hope that this is something which my hon. Friend and his constituents will appreciate.
So as to save time, instructions to the district valuer to open negotiations for the necessary land have already been issued, and provided that we do not have to resort to compulsory purchase order procedures, this means that we should
1250
be able to start work on the bypass in the autumn of this year. Of course, I recognise that this is a good deal later than we had originally hoped and, indeed, later than we had led my hon. Friend and his constituents to believe. But our original design for the bypass met, as he knows better than anybody, considerable objection. As I said, this is something which often happens. In trying to meet these objections and suggested improvements in details, delays inevitably occurred. The new design is, I think, better than the old design, and if the compulsory purchase procedures to which I have referred do not have to be used—and in the circumstances I very much hope that they will not have to be used—the scheme should get off to a good start this autumn.
The scheme will cost nearly £600,000, so that it is of considerable size, but I am sure that this expenditure is well worth while. I think that with reasonable progress the work should be finished by the summer of 1966, and I hope that, after all the previous disappointments, this news will encourage my hon. Friend's constituents, and that with a definite improvement to look forward to they will be able to put up for a bit longer without the bypass which they have so rightly sought for such a long time.
We have, however, to deal with the interim period between now and the building of the bypass, and several suggestions have been made as to ways of improving the safety of the road through East Ilsley until the bypass is completed. My hon. Friend will be glad to know that the divisional road engineer has been in close touch with the county authorities to see what can be done to improve safety.
As my hon. Friend knows—indeed he referred to this—temporary traffic signals were installed as an emergency control measure while the road was blocked with rubble. It has been suggested that these signals might remain until the bypass is built, but this form of control is really appropriate only where the road is obstructed and cannot carry traffic in both directions at the same time. This situation no longer applies at East Ilsley now that the rubble has been

1251
removed, and therefore it does not seem to me that there is any point in maintaining signals of this nature.
Another suggestion that my hon. Friend made was that a special speed limit should be imposed, but again I am afraid that this would not achieve very much. First, many of the accidents occur at low speed and are due to the narrowness of the road, so even if cars were going at only 20 miles per hour this might well be too fast for the nature of the road. Secondly, in these instances where speed is high there is no reason to suppose that a limit will reduce the speed. The speed may be higher from sheer negligence, or perhaps due to defective equipment of some sort. Anyway, this is not a suggestion put to my right hon. Friend by the county council, nor is it supported by the police.
At the moment, as my hon. Friend knows, there is already a 30-mile-an-hour speed limit through the village, and I am informed—I realise that my information is different from my hon. Friend's—that this is reasonably well observed, but enforcement of the speed limit is, as my hon. Friend is well aware, not a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.
Mr. Neave: May I go back to the traffic light point? Does my hon. Friend realise that there is a one-way system through the village into the main street, which makes a traffic-light system there effective for curtailing speed?
Mr. Galbraith: Yes. It may well be that my hon. Friend and I are talking at cross-purposes. I have a map here. I do not know the area as well as my hon. Friend does. I realise that there is a one-way system. I thought that what my hon. Friend was trying to suggest was that towards the point where the accident occurred there should be one-way working. I do not think that the road is narrow enough to justify that now that the rubble has been removed. However, I will look into the point.
Mr. Neave: If my hon. Friend would do that, it would help.
Mr. Galbraith: Certainly. From what I have said, I do not want my hon. Friend to think that our approach is entirely negative and that we intend doing nothing
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over the next few months. We are in fact negotiating with the owner concerned to obtain an easement, which would enable a road widening scheme at the "Lamb" public house to take place. This would extend the width of the road at this rather dangerous point to 22 ft. and would help very considerably. I know that compared with the many suggestions which have been made, this may not appear to be very much, but the real solution for East Ilsley lies, as my hon. Friend knows—I agree with him—in the bypass and, in the meantime, I think that this widening will do as much as is possible to improve conditions in the village itself.
I should like now to turn for a minute or two to the wider question of improvements to A.34 as a whole south of the Oxford Southern Bypass. One thing I want to make quite clear is that I accept completely what my hon. Friend said, that improvement to this road is necessary. The only difficulty is that we must be absolutely sure before initiating the necessary long-drawn-out and complicated statutory procedures under the Highways Act, 1959, that we have chosen the best possible line for the road. The delays at East Ilsley are a warning of what can happen, and indeed of nothing more than road building is it true to say, "More hurry, less speed".
As I think my hon. Friend knows, we have two alternative proposals in mind, one to the east of Abingdon and the other to the west. Studies already completed have shown that the balance of advantage when the two are compared is much narrower than we had originally thought.
In these circumstances, we have learned from experience that the quickest way in the long run to resolve the problem is to make the most careful and detailed examination beforehand so that the scheme as advertised is the one which has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of my right hon. Friend to be the best overall solution. And here there are inevitably many factors involved—of finance, amenity, effect on property, as well as traffic considerations and the engineering problems of actually building the road. All this apparently delaying preparatory work will, however, pay dividends in the future.
I appreciate the anxiety of those concerned who want to have a line fixed quickly and who see no sign of activity

1253
likely to lead to a decision. I can assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend is well aware of this natural feeling and, without prejudicing a wise decision which inevitably takes time, he is pressing on as quickly as possible, and will announce a line whenever he can.
Another point raised by my hon. Friend is the priority this improvement should receive once the line has been decided. This is another hurdle that often causes delay. Here the principle that guides my right hon. Friend is that, if the resources made available to him for major road improvement are to be used to the best national advantage, he must ensure that the cases which are most pressing nationally are dealt with first. Naturally, what is right nationally often causes severe disappointment locally, but I am sure we are right to insist on a national system of priorities.
My hon. Friend urged the case for speeding improvement of A.34 on the ground of the extra traffic from the proposed new power station at Didcot. I do not think that the extra traffic from the power station will justify, by itself, an increase in the priority which improvement of this part of A.34 would command in its own right because additional traffic will be only marginal. My hon. Friend asked if I would give an estimate of the amount of traffic. We estimate that it would be rather less than one year's normal growth on a road of this kind.
Another point which might be taken into account is the effect of the South-East Development Plan on this important road between the North and South. It is too early at this stage to know what effect that will have on the future of this road.
I know that a good deal of what I have said sounds rather tenuous and vague, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the tremendous increase in the road programme over the past few years should encourage my
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hon. Friend and his constituents, for although we can promise him no special favours, we are determined to press ahead as vigorously as the economy will allow. As our record shows, that is fairly fast going.
Over the last five years the Government have spent on new construction work about £382 million, and in the next five years we will be spending another £800 million. As regards improvements on A.34, to show my hon. Friend that this road is not being neglected, in the past four years about £40,000 has been spent on large-scale minor improvements in Abingdon.
Work on reconstructing, widening and realigning the Vineyard, Abingdon, has just started, at a cost of about £40,000. Bus bays between East Ilsley and Abingdon have been built at a cost of about £3,000. Rowstock crossroads, on A.34, will be improved this autumn at a cost of about £30,000 and another improvement on A.34 in this year's programme is at Boars Hill. The cost there is £25,000, but the scheme has been delayed because of compulsory purchase order action. All this mounts up and I can assure my hon. Friend that both in the problem at East Ilsley and in the wider issue of the A.34 south of Oxford my right hon. Friend will continue to do everything he can, within the limits set by finance, statutory procedures for the protection of individual interests, and the need for detailed and patient planning, to effect major improvements on the whole of the A.34 as quickly as their proper priorities justify; and I am sure my hon. Friend would not seek more than that.
Mr. Neave: Will my hon. Friend have a further discussion about the traffic lights at East Ilsley?
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester

TINNED CORNED BEEF AND HEALTH RISK
2.35 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether tins of corned beef cooled with unchlorinated water are still on sale to the public.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, the direct Answer to the Question is, Yes. But I should point out that what is important—as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, will appreciate—is not whether the water is chlorinated but whether it is clean. The mere addition of chlorine may not always achieve that; on the other hand, it may not always be necessary, because the water is already clean.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend how much corned beef cooled with unchlorinated water is, in fact, being sold, and how much is in stock?—because, judging from the figures given so far, there are vast quantities of corned beef cooled with unchlorinated water on sale to the public and presumably carrying a risk.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I never want to be at cross-purposes with the noble Lord. We are both looking for the same answer. The point I made in my substantive Answer was that what is more important is not whether the water used in cooling particular batches of tins was chlorinated but whether it was pure. What we have done is to single out those batches canned over a particular period which we have reason to suppose were
1108
cooled in unsatisfactory conditions, and those have been withdrawn and/or are being withheld from sale.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the batch responsible for the typhoid cases at Harlow last year, details of which have recently been reported in the medical Press, is among those now withdrawn from sale?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Yes, my Lords. Measures were taken at the time, long before this, to withdraw the stocks which formed part of the batches involved in the three outbreaks at Harlow, South Shields and Bedford; and those stocks have not been re-issued.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, is it not the fact that in order that there should be any danger, two circumstances are necessary—namely, that the cooling water shall be infected with typhoid, and that the tins should be defective in order that the water gets inside them?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Yes, my Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. The fact is—if I may put it in a picturesque way —that it is necessary for a droplet of water containing bacteria to coincide with a pinhole or a tiny fault in the seam of the can through which it can obtain entry. This might conceivably happen in one in several million tins.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, arising out of that question and answer, may I ask whether the tins in question are labelled in the country of origin and whether or not any examination is carried out of the gum by which the label is affixed and which might be infected and so might infect the contents of the tin in the act of opening?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I regret that I cannot answer that question without notice. I thought that my noble friend was asking whether the tins are stamped as having been canned and processed under satisfactory conditions. In fact, that is so. Every batch of tins of meat coming from abroad carries a certificate to that effect from the Government of the country of origin.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, as I have had experience of infected gum on the labels of tins in tropical countries, it occurred to me, when thinking of

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the minute pinhole and of the actual opening of the tin, that it is conceivable that the gum (which is a protein, I believe) might be infected, and I wondered whether the gum had been examined.
LORD ST. OSWALD: No, my Lords, I do not think so. We have absolutely no evidence of infection caused by the gum from the inside of the label finding its way into the tin.

EXPORT OF VEHICLES TO INDONESIA
2.41 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice; namely, whether they will refuse licences for the proposed export by Vauxhall Motors of 756 trucks and 252 bus chassis to Indonesia.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CARRINGTON): No, my Lords. Bus and lorry chassis are not subject to export licensing and the approval of Her Majesty's Government is not therefore required for their export. It is in any case not the general policy of Her Majesty's Government to impose restrictions on trade in non-strategic goods.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, may I then ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will not reconsider this question and take powers to impose a ban in this case? Is it not a fact that Indonesia is in a virtual state of war with our ally, Malaysia, and that our own troops are actually fighting in the field? Although, certainly, from the nature of the terrain, these vehicles could not be employed in the forward areas, could they not equally be used for transportation of both reinforcements and supplies from the port and base areas, and so indirectly contribute to the deaths of our men and our allies?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think I ought to emphasise that this is an ordinary commercial transaction, with no political or military significance, and, as Her Majesty's Government have always made clear, we are not opposed to the continuation of normal trade with Indonesia. Of course the export of arms
1110
and of materials which can be used against our troops have been prohibited since the beginning of the "confrontation" policy.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, does not my noble friend recall that on November 26 last he informed me in this House that Her Majesty's Government had asked the American Government not to issue an export licence to an American commercial firm for spare parts for American-built troop transports belonging to the Indonesian Government? Is not their present attitude extremely illogical, and can they not undertake to hold up these licences until President Soekarno's policy of "confrontation" in Malaysia has been abandoned?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, of course, that was entirely different, because the Government believed—and I am sure that we were right in thinking—that these transport aircraft were being used directly in aid of the Indonesian policy of "confrontation". The same is not the case, and could not be the case, with these lorries.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, is it not a general proposition worthy of consideration by the House that, where there are differences of political opinion, trade is the best way of resolving them, and should it not be Britain's aim to maintain as widespread and as general a trade as possible?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think that the general proposition that economic sanctions do not do much good is one that will be accepted by everybody.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, in order to get this clear, may I ask whether it is not a fact that there is a statutory power for Her Majesty's Government to require a licence for the export of arms; but is there in fact any power for any Government Department to restrain the export of purely commercial material, or would special legislation be required to enable that to be done?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, as I understand it, there are no powers which the Government have at the moment which they could use to prevent this export order from being fulfilled.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord properly answered the noble Lord who asked the original Question. Will the noble Lord say whether these vehicles, or parts, are capable of being used for the movement of troops of a country with which we are, at any rate in a secondary sense, at war?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, anybody who knows the country which we are talking about will realise that lorries are not much good for this purpose. There are not any roads within forty miles of the frontier. In any event, the Indonesians are supplying their troops by air, sea, river and porters, not by road.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, as one who knows the country, I think it is unlikely that they are going to have the lorries used on the frontier, but may I ask the noble Lord whether he thinks that this action will encourage Malaysia to believe that we are serious in our support for them? May I further ask whether this is going to be financed in part with the help of Government funds —in other words, an export credit guarantee.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord's first question, I should have thought that what Britain has done to help Malaysia in the last six months was very good evidence of the support we are determined to give it. There are many thousands of British troops in Sabah and Sarawak and many have lost their lives. I should have thought that that was a very good indication of our support. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question, it would be contrary to normal practice to reveal whether application for cover had been made to the Export Credits Guarantee Department on behalf of particular firms for particular projects, but in the present circumstances the E.C.G.D. are unable, on purely economic grounds, to cover business with Indonesia on any substantial scale.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, there is just one question I should like to ask. Have we received any representations from the Malaysian Government on this subject? If we have not
1112
and representations were made, would the Government then be prepared to consider the matter again?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, so far as I know, there have been no representations, though, of course, if the Malaysian Government made representations, Her Majesty's Government would naturally consider them.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that, at a suitable moment after 3.30 o'clock, my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn will be making a Statement on the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development.

UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (INSANITY) BILL [H.L.]
2.48 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD DERWENT): My Lords, I move today the Second Reading of a measure which represents a useful and liberal reform of the criminal law. It implements the recommendations of the Criminal Law Revision Committee on a number of questions relating to the issue of insanity in criminal proceedings, as set out in the Committee's Third Report which was published as a Command Paper (Cmnd 2149) last September. The Bill is in the form of the draft Bill annexed to the Committee's Report, subject to a few modifications and the addition of provisions relating to courts-martial. I should like to take this opportunity of saying that the Government are most grateful to the Committee for their valuable Report on these difficult issues.
The first question which the Committee were asked to consider was the form of the special verdict of "guilty but

1113
insane", which is given when a person charged on indictment with a criminal offence is found by the jury to have done the act charged but, owing to insanity, to have been not criminally responsible for it. This verdict, although in form a verdict of guilty, is in substance one of acquittal, and its present form was laid down in the Trial of Lunatics Act, 1883. Both the 1923 Atkin
Committee on Insanity and Crime and the 1953 Royal. Commission on Capital Punishment felt that the verdict should be one of acquittal in language as well
as in substance, and this view was shared by the Criminal Law Revision Committee. Clause 1 produces the necessary result, and provides that henceforward the verdict shall be that the accused is not guilty by reason of insanity.
The second question put to the Committee, which is dealt with in Clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill, was whether an appeal should lie against the special verdict. There is at present no right of appeal against it, because under Section 3 of the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, it is only a person "convicted" on indictment who may appeal, and, as I have said, the special verdict amounts to an acquittal. The Atkin Committee thought that there need be no right of appeal, because in practice the accused must himself have put forward the plea of insanity, and because the issue of insanity was never raised if there was any real question whether the accused committed the act.
The position, however, has been to some extent affected by the introduction in the Homicide Act of the defence of diminished responsibility, and in giving the judgment of the Court of Criminal Appeal in Regina v. Duke, in October, 1961, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice said that the absence of an appeal might work injustice, although he did not suggest that it had done so. The Committee recommended that a right of appeal should be given, either against the part of the verdict which implies that the accused did the act, or against the finding of insanity, or both, and that it they substituted a verdict of guilty for the special verdict the Court of Criminal Appeal should have the same power to sentence the appellant as the court of trial would
1114
have had, save that the sentence for murder would always be life imprisonment, even when the murder was capital. No one, I think, would question that the death sentence should not be imposed as the result of any appeal against the special verdict.
Clause 4 of the Bill makes amendment to the law which governs the situation when a person appearing before a superior court on indictment for a criminal offence is found unfit to stand trial by reason of insanity—that is to say, if he cannot understand the proceedings so as to be able to make a proper defence, to challenge a juror to whom he might wish to object, and understand the details of the evidence. The present procedure is regulated by Section 2 of the Criminal Lunatics Act, 1800, which, according to the preponderance of judicial authority, requires that any issue as to the fitness of the accused to stand trial should be determined by a jury at the outset; the section goes on to provide that a person found by a jury to be insane so that he cannot be tried shall be ordered to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure. The procedure is open to the objection that it provides no opportunity for testing the prosecution's case before the issue of insanity is put to the jury, and that consequently a person who would have been entitled to an acquittal on the facts, had he been able to stand his trial, may suffer injustice.
The Committee found some difficulty on the question whether the issue of fitness to plead should, as normally happens at present, be determined on arraignment or immediately it arises, or whether postponement of the issue should be allowed, as has occasionally been done; and they were unable to reach a unanimous decision. Some of the members felt that the possibility that injustice might result is in practice so small, and the difficulties about allowing a trial to start without first investigating the accused's fitness to plead when that issue has been raised are so substantial, that postponement should not be allowed. The majority of the Committee, however, favoured allowing postponement up to the opening of the case for the defence, including the determination of any submission that there is no case for the accused to answer, and that is the course which the Government think should be adopted.

1115
I should perhaps add that deaf mutes, even though not insane in the usual sense, are dealt with under the 1800 Act if by reason of their disability they do not satisfy the criteria of fitness to plead, and it seems particularly desirable in such cases to be able to delay the testing of the issue of unfitness if there is any real possibility that the prosecution will not be able to prove their case.
Here I should perhaps mention that the clause differs slightly from that in the Committee's draft Bill in providing specifically that in considering whether to allow postponement the court should take into account the nature of the supposed disability. As a further safeguard, the Committee recommended that there should be a right of appeal against a finding of unfitness to plead, and this is provided in Clause 4(6). A successful appeal against a finding of disability would result in a fresh trial, unless the Court of Criminal Appeal considered that the appellant should have been acquitted before the issue of fitness was determined.
Clause 5(1) of the Bill deals with the treatment of persons found not guilty by reason of insanity or unfit to plead. As the law stands, the effect of a special verdict or finding of unfitness is that the accused is ordered by the court to be kept in custody during Her Majesty's pleasure, and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary then orders his detention in a specified hospital from which he cannot be discharged without the Home Secretary's consent. There is also power under the Mental Health Act, 1959, which is sparingly exercised, to remit to prison to stand trial a person found unfit to plead who later recovers.
It might be suggested that in dealing with persons found not guilty by reason of insanity or unfit to plead, the courts, instead of having to order detention during Her Majesty's pleasure, should have the same discretion to make hospital orders, with or without the restrictions on discharge which make the patient subject to the Home Secretary's control, as they have in dealing with mentally disordered persons who are convicted. The Committee, however, came down in favour of retaining the present system, subject to slight modifications, primarily on the ground that it works satisfactorily in practice, that
1116
the Home Office is in a better position than the courts to investigate the questions relevant to the accused's treatment and that uniformity is highly desirable and is more likely to be achieved if cases continue to be handled by a single experienced authority rather than by a great many different courts.
I should emphasise that we are dealing here with a very small class of persons who have been charged before a superior court with an indictable offence, but who by reason of insanity have not been convicted. They are in a special category and they can properly be distinguished from mentally disordered offenders as a whole.
The procedure set out in Clause 5 will differ from the present system only in that the archaic reference to Her Majesty's pleasure will be eliminated, and that the court, not the Home Secretary, will order the accused's detention in hospital, although it will as at present be for the Home Secretary to specify the hospital concerned. In their report the Committee proposed a further modification, namely, that where a person was found, either by the trial court or on appeal, to be either under disability so as to be unfit to plead or not guilty by reason of insanity, the court should have discretion to release him if they were satisfied that it would be safe for the public and the accused to do so, instead of requiring his admission to hospital.
The Government, however, consider that difficulties would be caused by dividing the responsibility in this way between the Home Secretary and the courts, and enquiry which has been made of the judges by the noble and learned Lord Chief Justice has revealed that they are also of that opinion. We have therefore decided against including this provision in the Bill. In cases where the offence is not serious the Home Office is always ready to authorise discharge, even after quite a short time, if the accused person no longer needs treatment in hospital and no risk to the public is involved.
Clause 5(2) provides that the Court of Criminal Appeal, when they allow an appeal against the special verdict and substitute an acquittal, shall in certain circumstances order that the appellant should be temporarily detained

1117
in hospital for a maximum period of 28 days. The grounds on which such detention would be ordered are equivalent to those on which any mentally disordered person may be temporarily detained for observation under Section 25 of the Mental Health Act—namely, if his disorder warrants his detention in the interest of his own health or safety, or with a view to the protection of other persons. In the great majority of cases the appellant will already be detained in hospital in pursuance of the special verdict when his appeal is heard, and the order for his temporary detention in suitable cases will give a breathing space in which to make the best possible arrangements for his disposal. In some cases the hospital authorities may wish to invoke other provisions of Part IV of the Mental Health Act (which relates to non-criminal mentally disordered persons) in order to continue the patient's detention beyond the initial 28-day period.
The Committee were also asked to advise on another point referred to by the Lord Chief Justice in his judgment in Regina v. Duke. Under the Homicide Act, 1957, a person charged with murder may plead something less than insanity —namely, diminished responsibility. Acceptance by the jury of such a defence means a verdict of manslaughter, and may result in a fixed, and sometimes comparatively short, period of imprisonment. A verdict of guilty but insane, on the other hand—that is, the present verdict—means that the accused is liable to indefinite detention in a hospital and that his discharge is subject to the Home Secretary's consent.
The Lord Chief Justice pointed out that there was conflict of practice on the question whether, if the accused put forward a defence of diminished responsibility, the prosecution could call evidence to the effect that the prisoner's mental condition at the time of the offence went beyond diminished responsibility and that he was in fact insane. The Committee recommended that, to avoid uncertainty, provision should be made to allow the prosecution to call evidence of insanity when the defence is one of diminished responsibility, and that, although the matter is not in
1118
dispute, there should also be express provision for the converse situation by allowing evidence to be called showing that the accused was suffering from diminished responsibility when a defence of insanity is put forward.
Clause 8 of the Bill and Schedule 2 make corresponding provisions in the law concerning courts-martial, and Clause 9 is merely ancillary to the purposes I have described. The Bill, except as respects courts-martial, does not apply to Scotland or to Northern Ireland. I hope, from what I have said, that the Bill will commend itself to your Lordships as making a significant improvement in the law. I am sorry that I have been somewhat long in describing the Bill, but I thought it better to go into detail at this stage, and perhaps answer in advance some of the questions your Lordships might have put. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Derwent.)
3.3 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the House will be obliged to the noble Lord for the explanation he has given on this Bill, and I can assure him that he was by no means too lengthy. I can also assure him that I shall not be even as lengthy as he was. As the noble Lord said, the Bill certainly represents an improvement in the law, and I am sure that the whole House will be willing to give the Bill a Second Reading. As the noble Lord said, it arises from a Report of the Criminal Law Revision Committee, about which we had some discussion last Thursday. It is perhaps relevant to that debate to remind the House that this Committee was set up on February 3, 1959, and reported over four and a half years later, which is rather a long time. Of course, this is no reflection on the Committee itself; it is a reflection, as we said last week, on the manner in which these Committees have to do their business. They sit whenever they can afford to spare the time, and naturally a matter of this kind is bound to take a long time. But I submit to the House that more than four and a half years for the deliberation of a Committee on a matter of this kind is a long time.
Another interesting feature is that the Committee actually drafted the Bill,

1119
and although there have been some minor modifications the Bill is substantially in the form of the draft submitted. So there can be no excuse on the part of the Government of lack of Parliamentary draftsmen: the job was done for them.
The Bill itself can more appropriately be discussed in Committee. In principle, we agree with it. There is just one point which struck me as being a little doubtful, and that is in Clause 2, which provides that the Court of Criminal Appeal may dismiss an appeal if it is of opinion that but for the insanity of the accused the proper verdict would have been that he was guilty, but they may say he was guilty of an offence other than the offence charged. Now that seems to me rather peculiar. I do not know whether it is unique in English law, but for a Court of Criminal Appeal to find that a person is guilty of an offence other than the one with which he was charged seems extraordinary. The person charged will have had no opportunity on appeal of putting up a defence to the other offence upon which they are finding him guilty, or of calling evidence or anything of that kind. Therefore, it seems to me that he may be punished by the
Court of Criminal Appeal for an offence with which he has never been charged. It may be that this point can be better threshed out in Committee, but if the noble Lord has a ready answer now I should be very grateful to hear it.
Subject to that, I am sure we shall all give the Bill a welcome, particularly the rather humane provision—I think it is a humane provision—that where a person, but for the fact that he has had this special verdict would have been sentenced to death, appeals unsuccessfully, he is no longer liable to have the capital punishment imposed. I think that is right. Such a person has been through the ordeal of going through two hearings, and I think it is probably right that in those circumstances he should be treated as being guilty of homicide. We shall look at this Bill again in Committee, but I am sure we shall all wish to give it a Second Reading.
3.8 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I hope that the House will give this Bill a warm welcome. It is a moderate Bill of
1120
liberal intent, and based on humanity. I can assure your Lordships that I shall be even shorter than the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. I agree that the points we want to discuss are better threshed out in Committee than now, but perhaps I might ask the Minister one question. I gather that one effect of this Bill will be to wipe out the verdict of "guilty but insane". Is it not possible that a crime may be committed where a man is in full possession of his senses but becomes insane before or when he is charged? A proper verdict, surely, should be "guilty of the crime, but insane at the time of the trial" and therefore, of course, meriting mercy.
3.9 p.m.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I am sure we shall all welcome the Second Reading of this Bill. I am not quite clear why the final words of subsection (1) of Clause 5 of the draft Bill prepared by the Criminal Law Revision Committee appear to be going to be dropped, but no doubt we may consider that in the Committee stage. While I welcome the Bill, it cannot, I suggest, be put forward as a major contribution to the field of law reform. It has always been a principle of English law that if the insanity of an accused person was proved with that degree of strictness which the law requires, it must result in a verdict of not guilty, because that has always been a defence: not guilty on the ground of insanity. Whereupon, of course, the person charged was removed to what in those days was called a lunatic asylum. In 1883, however, when a lunatic shot at Her late Majesty, Queen Victoria, she expressed the very strong view that, as he had shot at her, he must be guilty whether he was insane or not. When the then Prime Minister was, unfortunately, unable to persuade Her Majesty that this was a wholly illogical view, it appeared that Her Majesty would not be satisfied unless the law was altered. Accordingly, after consulting the Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister felt, for the sake of peace, compelled to introduce the Trial of Lunatics Act, 1883, substituting the verdict of "guilty but insane", which is, and always has been, in law, a contradiction in terms.
One appreciates that, having regard to those relations which no doubt should subsist between the Sovereign and her

1121
Prime Minister, it may well have been difficult to cure this obvious anomaly in English law during the lifetime of Her Majesty. But, since her late Majesty, five sovereigns have reigned, and this is an anomaly which obviously ought to have been cured by every Government since 1900. It is not a point which matters very much; it is a fiddling little point in relation to those reforms in our law which really are necessary. But the nature of the anomaly and the fact that it should be reformed was strongly recommended by the Atkin Committee, who reported 41 years ago, and was endorsed by the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment in 1953. Normally, as I think I have ventured to point out to your Lordships' House before, once all lawyers are agreed that there is an anomaly in our law which ought to be reformed, on an average it takes only 35 years to have it put right; whereas, on this occasion, allowing for the fact that it would have been difficult to do it in her late Majesty's lifetime, it has taken 64 years. It cannot really be put forward as if to say to foreigners: "Look with what lightning speed we, in England, correct anomalies in our law". Therefore, while welcoming the Second Reading of this Bill, we cannot, I suggest, regard it as of any major importance in the field of law reform and can welcome it only on the principle of "Better late than never".
3.14 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to add a word or two to what my noble friend has said. As one of those who took part in the discussions some years ago which led to at any rate some of these problems being remitted to the Law Revision Committee, I think that what has happened in regard to this matter strongly bears out what my noble friends Lord Silkin and Lord Gardiner have said in relation to it as an illustration of the slowness of law reform and its uncertainty in this country.
It was because this matter was raised in this House that these, I admit, very difficult problems in relation to the trial of people whose sanity is in doubt were referred to the Law Revision Committee —and I think that that ought to be borne in mind. This was not referred to the Law Revision Committee by anybody whose job it was to see that
1122
law reform was carried through; it was the direct result of debates in this House; and The Times drew attention to the point which had been made by speakers in these debates. Therefore I think we are entitled to claim some credit in this House; and we are entitled to regard this as an illustration of the very chancy and happy-go-lucky arrangements to which my noble friend Lord Gardiner and other speakers in the debate last week drew attention and underlined. That reinforces the need for having a permanent Commission to keep under review the state of our law, because if that had existed obviously this matter, which was very well known to the Judges and to practitioners in criminal courts years before it happened to come up for discussion in this House on another Bill, would have been remedied. Surely this proves beyond any question that we need very much better arrangements.
On the whole, I agree with the Government's view in relation to the actual proposals which have been put up by a majority in the Law Revision Committee on this particular matter. I think the Government have made the right decision. It may be, as my noble friend Lord Silkin says, that we shall wish to make some small changes at Committee stage, but I, too, would strongly endorse the actual contents of this Bill.
3.16 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I am very grateful to your Lordships for the general welcome you have given to this Bill. I take it that the historical speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, was welcome, although it dealt with the past and not with the present. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I think he is a little unfair about the Committee's work. In fact, since 1959 they have reported on Indecency with Children, on Suicide, on Criminal Procedure (Insanity), on the Order of Closing Speeches in Trials on Indictments and on Criminal Procedure (Jurors); and this particular matter we are discussing today was, in fact, sent to the Committee in 1962. It is a very complicated subject and I think they have worked extremely quickly on this matter, considering the number of people who have had to be consulted.
The other point the noble Lord raised

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was about the other offences of which the appellant may be found guilty. This refers to cases in which under the ordinary law a person charged with one offence can be convicted of some other related offence on the basis of the same indictment. It refers to cases where a man can be found guilty alternatively. I hope that I have made myself clear. On the question which the noble Lord, Lord Rea, raised, about the man who was sane at the time of his offence but insane at the time of his trial, I think it is true to say that he would be found unfit to plead.
May I say one word to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley? He is indeed right in saying that this matter was raised in your Lordships' House not so long ago by the
noble Lord himself, among others. If I remember aright, he moved some Amendments to a Bill which came before your Lordships' House, and I think he was told at the time that that particular Bill was an unsuitable vehicle for his Amendments. But we are not unmindful of the fact that he did at that time press this particular point.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I was not claiming any kudos for myself, but wished to emphasise that it was as a result of discussions in your Lordships' House that this measure was put forward.
LORD DERWENT: That, indeed, is true. Again, I am grateful to your Lordships for the general welcome given to this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES [H.L.]
3.18 p.m.
Report of Amendments received (according to Order).
Clause 5:
Consequential amendments
(2) In paragraph (a) of the proviso to section 4 of the British Nationality Act 1948 for the words from "possesses such immunity" to "His Majesty" there shall be substituted the words "is a person on whom any immunity from jurisdiction is conferred by or under the Diplomatic Privileges Act
1124
1964 or on whom such immunity from jurisdiction as is conferred by that Act on a diplomatic agent is conferred by or under any other Act".
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved to leave out subsection (2). The noble Lord said: The noble Lord, Lord Molson, is, unfortunately, unable to be here to-day and, curiously enough, he has asked me to move his Amendment. I do so with great readiness because the point raised by the Amendment is one which I raised myself in Committee—namely, the clause which was moved in Committee, as in addition to the Bill, by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. Your Lordships' House may remember that on that occasion I complained that the language of the new clause added to the Bill was quite incomprehensible to the ordinarily intelligent person; and, although the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, gave us an explanation of the clause, which I have since read and which I think is intelligible, nobody would have connected the two or could possibly have guessed that the explanation related to the particular clause.
We had some discussion on it. Other noble Lords felt the same. And the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said two things: first, that the Parliamentary draftsman was listening to what was being said. He also said that he would see whether it was possible to simplify the language. I see nothing on the Paper simplifying the clause, and I submit that this House ought not to pass measures which are quite incomprehensible. I would therefore support the Amendment which was to have been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, leaving out subsection (2), which is the subsection in question.
If the House agrees with me that this subsection should be deleted, I am sure that the noble Lord will be able to come back and, with his powers of persuasion, bring back to us a provision which means the same thing but says what it means in much more simple language. I will not trouble the House by reading out the subsection which I want to delete. The noble Lord himself admitted it was very difficult to follow. Indeed I would go so far as to say it is impossible to understand what it means. I would therefore ask the House to delete this subsection, and if the noble Lord

1125
attaches importance to having something of this kind in the Bill, he can put down something simple on Third Reading. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 13, leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Silkin.)
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I hope that by the time I have sat down your Lordships will find the subsection as it now stands a good deal more explicable than the unholy alliance between the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and my noble friend Lord Molson. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has explained, as I expected, that the purpose of his Amendment is not in effect to criticise the provisions which we have put in the Bill so much as to protest at the language used to achieve this end. The noble Lord and your Lordships are well aware that if the subsection were indeed to be left out the consequences would be very embarrassing. I explained this last week and I do not think it necessary for me to do so again. But it certainly would not be the intention of anybody in your Lordships' House that British nationality should be given to the children of members of foreign missions born in this country.
I will therefore confine myself to the drafting of the clause, which was the
subject of a good deal of criticism during the Committee stage. I said on that occasion that I would look at the drafting, I would consult lawyers in the Foreign Office and Parliamentary Counsel and would see what I could do to make the wording simpler, if it were possible. I gave no further undertaking. I have faithfully carried out this undertaking and have had a number of consultations on this matter. But I regret to tell your Lordships that it has been found impossible by those who are experienced in these matters to find any simpler form of words which could be substituted for those in the Bill as it stands at present. The difficulty is that this is quite a small point but it is a very complicated one, and it is not very easy to convey what is necessary in entirely simple language.
I wonder whether your Lordships or I were quite right in saying that the Amendment as it was on the Committee stage is as mystifying we thought on the last occasion, and here perhaps I was at fault in suggesting that that was so. Per-
1126
haps I might explain a little more fully exactly what this subsection does. When one Statute makes consequential Amendments to another it just is not possible to set out in full what is being amended to show it in its amended form. The Statute Book, which is bulky enough as it is, would be enormous if every time we had to set out in full a section as amended. And I should have thought that the right question to ask is whether when you read the new words called for by the amending Bill in their correct place in the amended Act they achieve their effect in an intelligible and economical way. This means that you must get hold of the amended Act and look up the relevant section and then put the amending clause alongside it.
May we do that with Clause 5 subsection (2)? We refer to Section 4 of the British Nationality Act, 1948. Substituting the words as required by Clause 5(2) the result is this—and I ask your Lordships to listen carefully:
"Every person born within the United Kingdom and Colonies after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by birth:
Provided that a person shall not be such a citizen by virtue of this section if at the time of his birth"—
here the new words are inserted—
"his father is a person on whom any immunity from jurisdiction is conferred by or under the Diplomatic Privileges Act, 1964"—
I think the meaning of that is quite clear: a child is not a United Kingdom citizen, even if he is born here, if his father enjoys immunity from jurisdiction under the present Bill. And then it goes on:
"or [is a person] on whom such immunity from jurisdiction as is conferred by the Act on a diplomatic agent"—
that is to say, the full immunity under Article 31 of the Convention—
"is conferred by or under any other Act".
As I explained to your Lordships at the Committee stage, there are various Acts of Parliament which confer diplomatic-type immunities on people who are not
diplomats in the strict sense. At present such people are covered by the saving
to Section 4 of the British Nationality Act if they enjoy an envoy's immunity. Under the Bill an envoy's immunity is that enjoyed by a diplomatic agent, so that is why we refer to
"such immunity as is conferred by the Act on a diplomatic agent".

1127
The reason why it looks more complicated than the existing saving to Section 4 of the British Nationality Act is that there will be various levels of immunity under the Bill, whereas at present diplomats all enjoy the same immunity—namely, such as is accorded to an envoy. As I have already said, the net effect of it all is that the same people will benefit, the same children will avoid being made into United Kingdom citizens against their parents' wishes.
My Lords, having looked at it again and looked at it rather carefully, I am quite sure that, provided you read this carefully, this is a comprehensible way of achieving this purpose. I agree you have to stop and think about it, but I do not think that is objectionable. I am no lawyer, but if I can understand it, I am perfectly certain the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, can understand it. I hope, therefore, that in the light of the explanation I have given and in the knowledge that I have done my best —and I really have tried—to find alternative words and failed, your Lordships will allow the Bill to remain as it is and the noble Lord opposite will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, it is quite true that the noble Lord now understands this clause. He was not quite so sure when he first presented it to the House. Since then he has had the opportunity of a number of conversations with the Foreign Office and with Parliamentary draftsmen. He has had ten days in which to think about it, and now at last he comes back to the House and says, "I understand it". Well, no doubt he does, but other people might do so as well if they had all the advantages that the noble Lord has.
LORD CARRINGTON: Noble Lords have had the advantage of listening to me!
LORD SILKIN: Is it not possible to reproduce the new position in the Bill? The noble Lord read out what the words would be if paragraph (a) of the proviso to Section 4 of the British Nationality Act, 1948, were amended in the form he wants. Why cannot that be inserted in the Bill?
LORD CARRINGTON: I explained that.
LORD SILKIN: I doubt whether it would be any longer at all, and it would at least be explicable. I would ask the noble Lord just to think about that. We have recently had a debate on reform of the law. One thing we talked about on Thursday was simplification. This is one way of simplifying it. Why not put what you really want into the Bill, instead of simply saying "instead of the proviso to the 1948 Act, read so-and-so"? It is then all there and anyone can understand it. If the noble Lord will give an assurance that he will think about this suggestion, I will gladly withdraw the Amendment. I hope he will be able to give that some consideration.
LORD CARRINGTON: As I think your Lordships know, I always try to help the House in these matters. I tried to explain why it would be most difficult to do what the noble Lord suggests. In Bills of this kind—and this is not by any means the worst example; it has happened in many Bills which have been passing through your Lordships' House in the last year or so—there have been consequential Amendments of this kind in large number; and if we did what the noble Lord suggests, the Statutes which we are passing would really be enormous. It would be creating a precedent which I am advised would be a dangerous one, and I am afraid that I cannot accept the suggestion made by the noble Lord.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, may I, in support of my noble friend, say that I do not think it is quite as simple as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggests. I agree with him that it would, of course, he rather simpler if, on looking, at this Bill, you could see what the proviso to Section 4 of the 1948 Act would be hereafter. But if the Amendment were simply to do away with that proviso as it exists in the 1948 Act and substitute a new one, it would be difficult for the lawyer who had occasion to refer to the 1948 Statute to see precisely what was the Amendment that had been subsequently made. Lawyers hereafter may find it necessary not merely to look at this Act to see what it says, but to see precisely what was the Amendment made in the former Act. The view I formed on reading this subsection was that, difficult as it is, it does state in the

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minimum amount of words what it sets out to achieve; and the opportunity to bring about the result desired by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will come when there is some consolidation.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
3.33 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON LORD CARRINGTON rose to move. after Clause 6, to insert the following new clause:
Saving for certain bilateral arrangements
".—(1) Where any special agreement or arrangement between the Government of any State and the Government of the United Kingdom in force at the commencement of this Act provides for extending—

(a) such immunity from jurisdiction and from arrest or detention, and such inviolability of residence, as are conferred by this Act on a diplomatic agent; or

(b) such exemption from customs duties, taxes and related charges as is conferred by this Act in respect of articles for the personal use of a diplomatic agent;

to any class of person, or to articles for the personal use of any class of person, connected with the mission of that State, that immunity and inviolability or exemption shall so extend. so long as that agreement or arrangement continues in force.
(2) The Secretary of State shall publish in the London, Edinburgh and Belfast Gazettes a notice specifying the States with which and the classes of person with respect to which such an agreement or arrangement as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section is in force and whether its effect is as mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of that subsection, and shall whenever necessary amend the notice by a further such notice; and the notice shall be conclusive evidence of the agreement or arrangement and the classes of person with respect to which it is in force."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, during the debate in Committee, I said that we should be putting down a Government Amendment which would have the effect of preserving certain agreements and arrangements relating to immunity from jurisdiction and customs exemption. Before moving the Amendment, I should like to say something in explanation of it. Although the purpose of the Vienna Convention is to codify International Law on diplomatic privileges and immunities, it includes provision in Article 47(2)(b) by which it is open to the parties, by custom or agreement, to confer privileges and immunities beyond those laid down in the Convention. It would have been in accordance with this provision not
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only to preserve the present special arrangements for some States, but also to grant special treatment by agreement in the future. In theory, on this basis, we might give complete immunity to all members of the staff of a mission, and continue customs exemption to all; we might remove the exceptions to the immunity from jurisdiction under Article 31 and so on. But in the Bill there is no power to give effect to Article 47(2)(b). In other words, the Bill applies the Convention as it stands, and accepts it as containing all that is needed in the way of privileges and immunities.
This has been a difficult decision to take. Originally, we had intended to include a general power to make agreements going beyond the Convention. After careful consideration, we have concluded that the Convention should in principle be taken as being the last word on the matters with which it deals, and that such reductions in privileges and immunities as it entails should be accepted. But, as I said on the previous stage, in two respects, we cannot accept the Convention as it stands; and these are dealt with in the new clause. The effect of the clause is extremely limited. It relates only to existing agreements and arrangements. There is no question of our setting out to conclude any further arrangements.
The clause relates to two matters. The first is the immunity from jurisdiction and from arrest or detention and the inviolability of residence of persons connected with a mission other than members of the diplomatic staff. At present, all members of a mission, their families and certain private servants enjoy complete immunity from civil and criminal jurisdiction under United Kingdom law. However, under the Diplomatic Immunities (Restriction) Act, 1955, provision was made for withdrawing certain immunities from persons connected with a mission of a country which was not according the same immunities to our representatives to it. As a consequence of the 1955 Act, Her Majesty's Government took steps to discover the immunity position in foreign countries, and in 1956 an Order in Council was made under the 1955 Act withdrawing immunities to a greater or lesser degree from persons connected with certain missions in London. A few foreign countries themselves had a rule of reciprocity in the

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matter of diplomatic privileges and immunities, and it was possible to come to an understanding with those countries that the complete immunity should be recognised on a reciprocal basis. On this basis, certain countries either were not included in, or were deleted from, the 1956 Restriction Order.
I have already dealt more than once during the passage of the Bill with the security aspect of the immunity from jurisdiction or persons connected with our missions abroad. I am sure that I need not labour the point to your Lordships. I will merely say that, from this point of view, the vital thing is to be able to assure the persons concerned, in particular sensitive countries, that in no circumstances whatsoever can they be made subject to legal process or proceedings against the wish of the head of mission. What we are proposing in the Amendment is to maintain the complete immunity from jurisdiction of persons connected with a mission in those cases where we already have an arrangement to that effect with a foreign country. On the face of it, this may seem to be a major exception to the policy which I have described of accepting the Convention as it stands. In fact, however, so far as we can tell at present, the provision will probably not apply to more than four States. Understandably, it so happens that these are States where the immunity is needed.
The new clause also deals with the customs exemptions of non-diplomatic staff. Under the Convention and the Bill, diplomatic staff enjoy customs exemption throughout their tour of duty. Administrative and technical staff enjoy exemption only in respect of articles which they import at the time when they first take up their post. At present, customs exemptions arc based on reciprocity, and in the case of non-diplomatic staff do not continue throughout their tour of duty unless there is a specific arrangement with the foreign country concerned to that effect. We have such arrangements with a number of countries. These arrangements cannot simply be terminated by us at will. As and when the States concerned become parties to the Vienna Convention, we may well be able to negotiate their termination.
It may perhaps help your Lordships
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if I add a few words of explanation about subsection (2) of the new clause. The purpose of this subsection is to enable public identification of the States to which the provisions of subsection (1) will apply. The States will, of course, be only those with which we already have special agreements or arrangements. The subsection will also enable States to be removed from the list when particular agreements or arrangements come to an end. As I have said, no new agreements will be possible, and we hope that circumstances may allow at least some of them to disappear in course of time. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 6 insert the said new clause. —(Lord Carrington.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I would say to the noble Lord that at least this Amendment is intelligible and he has explained it fully. As I understand him, this applies to four States with whom we have existing agreements, and the purpose of this Amendment is to give wider immunity to diplomatic agents and their staff than would be available under the Vienna Convention.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, it applies to four States with regard to subsection (a), and nine States with regard to subsection (b).
LORD SILKIN: I will not ask the noble Lord for the names of the States, but I understand that they are going to be published.
LORD CARRINGTON: Yes.
LORD SILKIN: I was puzzled about how much wider the exemption could be. I thought that the Vienna Convention gave pretty wide exemptions from arrest, from detention, inviolability of residence, and all the rest, which it was possible to give both to diplomatic agents and, to a lesser degree, to their staff. It would be helpful if the noble Lord could explain what further diplomatic immunity there is. It may not be the same kind of immunity in all cases. I found it quite difficult from reading this to see how much further it was possible to go, for I thought that the Vienna Convention went almost all the way. That is on subsection (a).
In regard to subsection (b) and the exemption from Customs duties, is it

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really the intention to grant not only to diplomatic agents but to members of their staff—even the proverbial chauffeur —the right to import goods at will without any restriction at all, so long as they are for personal use? I should be grateful if the noble Lord could tell us what we are letting ourselves in for. I quite understand the reason behind it—that these are reciprocal arrangements which we have to honour because our people overseas are getting similar privileges.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, if I may answer the two points made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I would emphasise that this is not giving anything new to anybody. It is merely a continuation of something which is in force at the moment. With regard to subsection (a) in relation to the fair countries, what we are doing by this is only restoring to those people immunities which they had before the Convention. Under the Convention certain people lose some of their personal immunity. All we are doing is restoring to them file personal immunity as it was before the Convention is ratified by the passing of this Bill. It is not anything over and above the full immunities of the diplomatic agent. With regard to the noble Lord's second question, this immunity does not apply to chauffeurs. It is diplomatic privilege to such people as consuls who normally enjoy it only on first installation in their office. It is a reciprocal arrangement with other countries which we can
not abrogate unilaterally.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

U.N. GENEVA CONFERENCE ON TRADE AND DEVELOPMENT
3.44 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to read the text of a Statement which is being made at about this time in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development and President of the Board of Trade:
"The United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, which opened in Geneva on March 23, ended suc-
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cessfully earlier to-day. The recommendations adopted by the Conference will be presented to the General Assembly of the United Nations at its 19th Session in the Autumn.
"The recommendations adopted by the Conference include proposals for diversifying and expanding the exports of manufactures from developing countries, on access to markets for primary products, on commodity policy and proposals concerning aid for development.
"Among the latter is an important recommendation which Her Majesty's Government initiated, inviting the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development to study the feasibility of a new scheme for multilateral aid, and, if appropriate, to work out such a scheme. This would be administered under the International Development Association. It would be designed to help developing countries whose development programmes were threatened by adverse trends in their export proceeds of a nature or duration which could not be adequately dealt with by short-term balance of payments support.
"I"—
that is, my right honourable friend—
"was also able to inform the Conference of four additional measures in the field of multilateral aid. These are:
First, at a conference to be held next Autumn we shall announce an increase in our contribution to the Special Fund and the expanded programme of technical assistance for 1965.
Second, together with other Western countries we are willing to support an increase in the United Nations budget which will make possible an expansion of the activities of the United Nations Secretariat in the field of industrial development.
Third, we are willing to provide capital assistance to the African Development Bank at the appropriate time.
Fourth, we are also willing to examine sympathetically the possibility of assisting other regional

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development banks including the Inter-American Development Bank.
"Another important recommendation adopted concerns the future institutional arrangements for dealing with matters considered by the Conference. It recommends that the Conference should be established as an organ of the General Assembly of the United Nations, meeting at intervals of not less than three years, and that when the Conference is not in session its functions should be exercised by a trade and development board composed of 55 members representing the different groups of States participating in the Conference.
"The Conference and Board will function over broadly the same area as the Conference which has just ended; they will have power to make recommendations, but these will not be mandatory. I believe the proposed new institutions can do constructive work in many fields which are not adequately covered by existing international bodies.
"I am glad to say that, despite some last-minute difficulties, broad agreement was reached over this wide range of issues. Perhaps the most encouraging feature was that it proved possible to negotiate compromises which in general avoided resolutions being passed which stood no chance of being implemented and which would have served only to emphasise differences of interest and approach between the richer and poorer nations.
"This has been the largest and most important Conference ever held on international economic relations. Its outcome will influence the course of world affairs, political as well as economic, for a long time to come. Its failure would not only have been a set-back to the expansion of world trade; it would have been a severe disappointment to the hopes and aspirations of the developing countries. Its success can contribute to the creation of a greater prosperity in which all can share".
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we are much obliged to the Minister for giving us this statement. There can be no doubt about
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the importance of the Conference which has been in session, and there is no doubt a good deal of relief in this country because, although at one point it looked like breaking down, it has not in fact broken down but, I gather from the Statement, has come to certain conclusions. The Statement today, of course, summarises some of these, but we have not got the official report of the Conference itself. That will have to be examined in fairly close detail when we get it.
It is important for us to have another look at the four points which the Government have in mind with regard to the statements to be made in the autumn. But it would probably be helpful if we knew in advance that the increased contribution which Her Majesty's Government are prepared to offer in the autumn was likely to be supported. We talk about the other nations of Western Europe, but will they include France will they include Germany and the like? No doubt we shall have to wait for further information about this. We are hoping to have a debate next Wednesday week on the matter covered by this particular Conference and the statement today, but perhaps the Minister could get in touch with us to see whether it is possible for us to have certain further details in the meantime?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said. I shall, of course, do my best to see what further information can be made available to the House before the debate next Wednesday week. Noble Lords will realise that my right honourable friend returned from Geneva only this afternoon, so that it has not been possible for me to get much more information than I have been able to give to the House. But in these circumstances, and as we are to debate this matter on Wednesday week, perhaps noble Lords will be prepared to leave the matter there for the time being.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether in the next day or two there will be an official communiqué from the Conference itself, giving the results of the Conference? I take it that what we have just had is a personal statement by the Minister on the work—it just summarises. But surely there will be in the next day or two an

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official communiqué covering the results of the Conference. That is really what we should like to have before next Wednesday week.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am sure that the resolutions of the Conference, which I understand were carried through one by one yesterday, will be available by then. But I am afraid that I am not in a position to inform your Lordships exactly what other information will be available.
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, while welcoming the statement generally, I should like to ask whether the noble Lord can give an assurance that the terms of this agreement will not apply to those underdeveloped nations which have not paid their subscriptions to the United Nations?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, if they were represented at the Conference, and took part in the Conference, no doubt they will be represented equally in the permanent body which is to be set up and which is to have the 55 members. But I do not think that the noble Lord will expect me to say more than that on this subject.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord just three questions, because I think the answers might be helpful to us in the debate which we are going to have next week? The first arises out of reports in the Press that there was agreement between the developed nations about giving 1 per cent. of their gross national product per annum in money for overseas aid. My first question is: was such an agreement reached? The second question— and it arises from a question put by my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough—is whether the other Western countries, including the United States of America, have agreed to associate themselves with the scheme for compensatory finance through the International Development Association, which appears to be the most important of all these recommendations. My third question is whether the proposals for increases in multilateral aid, to which Her Majesty's Government have agreed, will mean an increase in the total amount of overseas aid which we intend to give; or whether there will be a reduction in the overseas
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aid to which we are already committed in other directions.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, if I might answer the last question first, my understanding is that what is intended is that there should be an increase in aid. On the other two subjects, with your Lordships' permission I think it would be wiser to wait until we see the actual text of the resolutions. I should not like to mislead your Lordships on this subject.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for the Statement, and while welcoming the recommendations that have been made, may I ask him whether he could obtain information on two other points, in addition to the many important points that have already been raised to-day, before the debate on June 24? The first is: are the Western countries referred to in the Statement prepared to waive import restrictions, tariffs and other barriers on trade, so that these other countries may export their products to the richer parts of the world? Secondly, will the provisions under this agreement comprehend the necessity for rural development especially the expansion of small farmers' operations in these territories?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the first question is a very general question. Your Lordships will understand that different countries have different approaches and different reservations to the various recommendations for the way in which access for primary products should be assured and commodity agreements should be made, so it would be quite impossible to give a general reply to that question. The second question is rather more specialised and, with respect, I would suggest that this is the kind of point that would come out more easily in the debate.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, would the noble Lord be good enough to explain the situation in respect of some matters which have been raised by a national newspaper to-day? For example, will Egypt, which has declared its intention to push us out of the Middle East and to destroy Israel, and the country that is in trouble with Malaysia—along with whom we are in battle—be treated as well as members of the British

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Commonwealth which are developing, or will there be a distinction in these circumstances? Are the British Commonwealth countries, including the developing countries of the British Commonwealth, to be treated not less advantageously than the countries which I have indicated?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I think I should say that the Statement I gave does not mention preferences, since all that could be agreed upon at the Conference was to study this matter further.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is it not the case that unless the study takes into account the fact that these people have not only to produce goods but to sell them in the rich markets of the world, the study will be quite valueless?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, this, of course, was one of the main factors that was at the basis of all the discussions in the Conference. Again, I think that this is the kind of matter which could not be dealt with quickly in question and answer.
LORD HOBSON: My Lords, does the noble Lord's reply to my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth mean that the question that the agreement should include Egypt or Indonesia is still a matter for further consideration, or have we agreed to treat them as, say, friendly members?
LORD DRUMALBYN: No, my Lords. What I tried to convey in my answer was that agreement has not been reached at all on this matter so far. The only agreement is to study the matter further.

LAW OF PROPERTY (JOINT TENANTS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
ADOPTION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

TREATMENT OF OFFICERS OF CENTRAL AFRICAN FEDERATION
4.0 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have further considered the situation with regard to undesignated federal and territorial officers, resulting from the ending of the Central African Federation. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I beg to ask the Unstarred Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I hope that the House will not feel that I am being unduly importunate if I raise yet once more a matter arising from the breakup of the Central African Federation, but I feel I must bring to the notice of your Lordships the hardships—indeed, in my view, the injustices—which this settlement seems to have inflicted on undesignated civil servants, both in the Federal Service itself and in the territorial services.
I would emphasise that these undesignated officers are confined to no race: they include Europeans, Asians and Africans alike. Indeed, the Africans who were in the Federal Service are, I think, probably in the worst category of all. Designated officers, as your Lordships know, are expatriate civil servants recruited in this country for service abroad, and undesignated officers are officers who did not at the relevant moment, at the ending of the Federation, come within that definition, either because they had ceased to be expatriate members of a Colonial Service (for a reason which I will explain in a moment) or because they were locally-recruited, and therefore never had been expatriate.
First, I should like to deal, if I may, with the Federal civil servants. So far as I know, the designated do not come too badly out of the ending of the Federation, though I understand that even here there have been cases of hardship. What I personally have to say to your Lordships this afternoon is concerned with the undesignated officers of all races. Practically all of these, I feel, have had a raw deal; and, of them, the most hardly treated of all have been, in my view, those who had been expatriate civil servants up to the time when the Federation came into being in 1953. There were a number of these Colonial

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Service officers who at that time happened to be serving in Central Africa and were faced with the extremely difficult choice of either joining the Federal Service, with the wholehearted blessing of Her Majesty's Government, or retiring with such pension as their service entitled them to at that time, but with no compensation for loss of career—and, indeed, with a certain amount of obliquity, for think how shocked everyone would have been if they had refused to take part in this great new experiment! Indeed, in a certain number of cases—I believe in a considerable number of cases—they can hardly be said even to have had that choice. Their departments became incorporated in the Federation, and those who worked in the departments became, almost automatically, Federal officers. In effect it was a matter almost outside their control.
Yet, what is the position of these people now? If they had continued to rank as expatriates, they could have claimed a full pension based on the number of years served plus, I understand, either a lump sum compensation for loss of career or an additional pension which usually amounted to something in the nature of one-third of their earned pension. But, because these people elected to try to make a success of the newly-established Federation, what is their situation today? They are undesignated—as it were, untouchables. They get no lump sum compensation at all for loss of careers; they get only their earned pension plus one-third if they are not offered re-employment by one of the territorial Governments, and only their earned pension with no addition at all of any kind if they are offered such employment and do not feel able to accept the offer.
There are also, of course, many cases of undesignated officers who were recruited locally. It might be argued that their case was not so hard, for they never have had expatriate status; but they are all men who joined the civil service of the Federation at a time when they had no reason to suppose they were not undertaking work which was greatly to the public interest and likely to last the remainder of their lives. And yet now, unless they undertake to accept employment under the new African Government,
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in circumstances where they will have no comparable security at all, many, through no fault of their own, but purely by reason of a change of policy by Her Majesty's Government here, suddenly find themselves, as it were, thrown on the scrapheap at an age when it is often very difficult to find new employment. One cannot think of their bleak future without a feeling of deep distress. So much, my Lords, for the Federal officers. Nor is the position of the undesignated officers who have been serving territorial Governments, and who find it impossible to continue their work under conditions where they have far less security of employment than before, a very rosy one, for they, too, had jobs which they had every reason to believe were blessed and sustained by Her Majesty's Government and which, they equally had every reason to believe, would last their lifetime. Now they find that that secure ground is cut from under their feet.
I recognise that some of your Lordships may feel that in what I have said I have overstated the case, and that the position is not all that bad. These unhappy people, it may be pointed out, might have got nothing at all, whereas Her Majesty's Government have at any rate remembered them in the settlement which they made. But I should like to give the House, if I may, one or two examples of how these terms actually work out in practice. I should make it clear that the cases I am going to quote relate to ex-Federal officers, though there are no doubt cases of comparable hardship in the territorial services.
First I should like to give the case of a man aged 45. He had been in the Department of Agriculture, and receiving a salary of £1,650 a year. He was married, with four children, and had a housing bond of £4,000 on his shoulders. He gets a pension, my Lords, of £256 a year. Now I give your Lordships a second instance. It is of a man aged 54, with thirty years' experience in a hydrographic survey. He, too, is married, and he has a housing bond of £2,000. He was getting a salary of £1,700 a year; he now has a pension of only £278 a year. Finally, I should like to give a case where the officer in question appears to be an African, not a European. This officer had been employed in the Customs; he had nineteen years' service,

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and his salary with the Government had been £828 a year. He is married and he has eight children. He gets a pension of £68 a year.
Even if these officers do make a great effort and try to get a job under the new, independent Governments, their situation is not really very much better. I have here the case of a man who, by his name, is probably an Indian, who tried to get such a job. He had been employed under the Federal Ministry of Education, and had fourteen years' service. He was earning a salary of £1,290 a year. He got in touch with the Nyasaland Government, and what was he offered? A purely temporary post at £512 a year. Nor, my Lords, are these unique cases. I could quote your Lordships many more cases of Europeans, Asians and Africans. The examples I have given are only three typical examples of a shattering blow which has been inflicted on these unhappy people, often elderly and with very little prospect of getting another job, or at any rate a job nearly as good.
Nor are these pensioners certain that they will get even the "mingy" pensions that I have described. Her Majesty's Government have accepted no responsibility for their payment: they have passed that over entirely to the local African Governments. They have not even obtained an assurance that these pensions will be paid in sterling. In fact, it is now certain that that will not happen; and if, therefore, by the mismanagement of its affairs, one of the African Governments—and this is not impossible—found that its currency had depreciated, the real value of these small pensions would go down with it.
Why these people who have worked so hard, so long and so successfully to uphold the dignity and efficiency of British rule should be given so poor a deal I do not know. It was not so, I understand, at the end of our rule in India or, more recently, at the end of the West Indian Federation. In the case of the West Indies, when the Federation was wound up a locally-recruited—not an expatriate —officer was offered comparable employment in the territories of the Federation and received, at his option, either his full earned pension plus one-third extra, about which I spoke at the beginning, or his pension plus a lump sum in compensation.
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But it seems, for some reason hidden from me, that there is a different standard for Africa. Moreover, although there is a nominal provision for dealing with cases of hardship, the definition of hardship has been so stringently interpreted that, although a special commissioner has been appointed, those closely in touch with these matters tell me they know of only two cases where he has made a grant of any kind at all. Indeed. it is made clear in the form which is sent to officers that there can be no question of compensation merely for loss of office.
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government may have intended to be fair in the terms given to these people; but one cannot but feel that the treatment they have had given to them has turned out in practice to be extremely shabby. What I want to ask my noble relative the Duke of Devonshire to-day is that Her Majesty's Government should, in the light of the experience now gained, at any rate give the matter further consideration. This is something that I feel I can very properly do; for in the debate which took place on December 17 last on the subject of the Order in Council for winding up the Federation, your Lordships' House showed itself—and noble Lords who were there will remember it—deeply shocked on two points. The first was the provision dealing with Federal loans and the other was the terms offered to undesignated civil servants, which is the question we are discussing this afternoon. Indeed, the feeling was so strong that I believe that, if we had asked the House to divide on that debate, the Government would have been defeated. One of the main reasons why we did not press the matter to a Division was that we had an assurance from the noble Lord the Leader of the House that if we raised the matter at a later date in the light of the practical application of the Order in Council he would see—and we were most grateful for what he said—that it would have at any rate sympathetic consideration.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Marquess was good enough to say that he was going to mention this point and I therefore took the opportunity of looking it up. I do not think this is very important; but I did not say that.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I apologise for misrepresenting the noble Lord; but he gave me reason in the speech he made at the end to think that he would consider what we had said. At least that was the impression I got; and that was one of the reasons why we did not press the matter to a Division. But I agree that it is not really of great importance.
My Lords, I have not reverted this afternoon to the question of the Federal loan; but I am afraid that everything we prophesied came true, and those who put their money into those loans trusting the good name of Her Majesty's Government have made a poor investment indeed. Perhaps we may revert to that question later. But we are definitely concerned to-day with the treatment meted out to a number of most deserving civil servants. Here, at any rate, the Government can, if they wish, still rectify to some extent what many of us must feel are injustices done to a most deserving class of people. I would most earnestly ask the noble Duke to give us some assurance this afternoon that the Government will re-examine, in the light of the facts, the terms reached with regard to these people and will report to the House the result of their re-examination. That, I am sure the House will agree, is the least they can do in a situation of this kind. I fully realise that this is a Question and not a Motion and that I have no right to reply; but I reserve the right to raise the matter again if the answer of the Government should prove to be unsatisfactory.
4.16 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am very glad indeed that the noble Marquess has raised this matter again and I am quite certain that the House will agree that he was not unduly importunate in doing so, because I think we should all take the view that our responsibility for these undesignated officers of all races, the ex-Federation officers, has not ended with the finishing of the Federation last year. I do not think any noble Lord who was present at the debate on December 17 to which the noble Marquess referred is satisfied by the arrangements proposed by the Government for the payment of terminal pensions to the undesignated officers of the Federal Government.
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One of the many unsatisfactory features of the proposed arrangements to which the noble Marquess did not refer was that they could not be concluded during the lifetime of the Federation. This meant that many loose ends were left to be tied up after we had lost our Parliamentary and constitutional responsibility. However, I think the Government have in fact recognised that we still have continuing moral responsibility for these officers, even if we do not have continuing legal responsibility. As part evidence of this, I should like to refer to the fact that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor was good enough to write to me in January to reply to some of the points I raised in the debate in December and to bring me up to date about the position of these officers. I am still completely unconvinced by the noble and learned Lord's reasons for maintaining, as he did both here and in his letter to me, that the locally-recruited officers of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland should have been treated differently by Her Majesty's Government from the locally recruited officers of the Federation of the West Indies. I agree with the noble Marquess that this is a perfectly valid parallel.
The essential difference is this: one must remember that in the case of the West Indies those officers who were unable to get employment with the territorial Governments in the West Indies after the Federation was wound up received a lump sum in compensation; whereas in Central Africa those officers who failed to get employment with the territorial Governments in Central Africa received no compensation at all. They had only the derisory sum of one-third added to their earned pension; and to this the noble Marquess has already referred. The simplification of the situation in these two cases is surely that since both Federations were terminated by an act of policy of the British Government, the public servants who lost their employment as a result of this act of policy should have been treated in the same way. The Lord Chancellor's justification for treating these Federation officers in Central Africa quite differently from and much worse than the officers who lost their employment in the West Indies is that

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the Central African Governments had agreed to it. Of course those Governments agreed to it. Her Majesty's Government held the purse strings and they had to do what Her Majesty's Government insisted that they should do.
The real reason for this difference in treatment is, quite simply, that Her Majesty's Government had a different policy in the case of Central Africa from the policy they were pursuing in the case of the West Indies. It is a fact that the British civil servants who argued the Government's case about the arrangement for these terminal benefits in Salisbury had been instructed to press for no compensation. Those were the instructions they received from Her Majesty's Government. If Her Majesty's Government had taken a different attitude and tried to persuade the African Governments to agree to giving a lump sum in compensation, and had, naturally, been prepared to give a contribution to the bill, I have no doubt at all that a compensation scheme would have been worked out and accepted. The Government really cannot escape their responsibility for this mean and shabby treatment of these public servants by saying that the Governments in Central Africa were responsible.
We cannot undo the past, unfortunately, and all we can do now is to alleviate the hardship, to work for a square deal for pensioners and to join in the request of the noble Marquess for a further consideration of these financial arrangements. Of course, if there had been compensation for loss of employment there would have been no need for special arrangements to deal with hardship cases. These officers would have drawn their money as of right, instead of being placed in the humiliating position that they are now placed in, of begging from a public authority. The difference is between drawing assistance from the Post Office and appearing before a public assistance committee. I think that one of the things the Government should most regret is that they have placed these distinguished public servants in this humiliating position.
I believe that a special commissioner has been appointed by the required agency to look into these hardship cases and I should like the noble Duke to answer one or two questions about the
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position of the special commissioner. Can he tell us what instructions the commissioner has received in relation to his handling of these hardship cases? He must surely have had some guidance about how to deal with them. I have seen the form of application for relief to which the noble Marquess referred and which applicants have to fill in, and the particulars on this form which have to be supplied suggest that the commissioner is expected to act as a sort of Scrooge. I hope that he is not. I hope that the noble Duke, when he replies, will be able to satisfy us that that is not the case.
Of course, everyone would agree that applicants should declare their income from all sources—that is only fair and reasonable. But is it reasonable that they should have to declare the value of their vehicles—a bicycle would be a vehicle—their furniture, and other household effects? Does this inquiry really mean that the special commissioner has been instructed to carry out a stringent means test? Surely a means test that goes beyond current income and forces a man to declare his savings if he is to receive any payment, is grossly unfair. This would penalise the thrifty man, who had saved during his life as a public servant, as against the spendthrift. I think it is important that we should know what assets would be disregarded by this special commissioner in the assessment of needs and what his instructions have been in regard to that.
There are many hard cases among these ex-officers. I had intended to quote some cases, but as the noble Marquess has quoted some I will not do so, because I think that one or two examples are typical of many others. It is extremely important to people living on as little as these men are living on that they should know whether, if they applied, they would be entitled to relief. It is widely believed in Salisbury that a man would have to be starving before the commissioner would recognise hardship. I hope that this belief is entirely unfounded, but, naturally, so long as it is entertained, it deters people from putting in an application. Can the noble Duke tell us, when he replies, how small a man's income has to be, and what he is allowed for his dependants, before he qualifies for relief?

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Finally, there are two matters I should like to raise in connection with the pensions that these officers receive. The first was mentioned by the noble Marquess. These pensions will not be paid in sterling, which is what the officers wanted, but in local currencies. This, of course, gives the pensioners no safeguard against devaluation, and I should like the noble Duke to consider whether the Government could not at any rate give them a guarantee against financial loss in the case of the devaluation of a currency in which their pensions were paid.
My second question relating to pensions was not referred to by the noble Marquess, but I think it is just as important as maintaining the monetary value of pensions. No undertaking has been given to these pensioners about increases in their basic pensions to bung them into line with rises in the cost of living. As your Lordships will remember, this is a statutory obligation in the case of expatriate officers, or designated officers, as they are sometimes called, who are covered by the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962. I must say that I cannot see why locally recruited officers should not be treated in the same way. The three Territorial Governments should surely be asked by Her Majesty's Government to review the basic position at regular intervals and compare it with the cost of living prevailing at the time, and if an upward adjustment is necessary then the Government should be willing to contribute, with the other Governments, towards this additional payment.
We are not asking for any great sum of money. These are all small matters of public expenditure. I am sure it is not a subject which would give any anxiety at all to any Minister responsible for the expenditure of a Government Department. But if it is generally agreed, as I believe it is, that both we and the Government have a continuing responsibility for these men, I think the Government should respond to the request of the noble Marquess for further consideration and reexamination of the financial arrangements that have been made for terminal benefits of these officers. I do not imagine that a single noble Lord will defend these arrangements. I expect that at the end of this debate it will be obvious that the whole House takes the view that these
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pensioners are not being fairly treated. Therefore, I hope that the noble Duke—incidentally, may I congratulate him on the honour that has just been conferred on him: we are all delighted that the noble Duke, who has worked so hard in this House, has been recognised in this way—when he takes into consideration the view of the House in the matter, will be willing, together with his right honourable friend, to reconsider this matter.
4.29 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I should like to support all that my noble friend Lord Salisbury and the noble Earl opposite have said about those described in the Question as the
"undesignated federal and territorial officers of the former Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland."
Many of these matters have been discussed at great length and in great detail in your Lordships' House on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, very little progress has been made in dealing with this most important of the human problems posed by the dissolution of the Federation. The position, when we last debated this matter on December 17, was that while Her Majesty's Government felt unable to reopen the main issues covered by the agreement between the five Governments, there were certain supplementary points on which it was understood that Her Majesty's Government might be able to meet some of the grievances of the former Federal civil servants. Then, your Lordships will remember, some further light was thrown on this matter in a letter which the noble Duke addressed to me and which appeared in the OFFICIAL REPORT on January 30.
Before I attempt to deal with these and other points which have arisen subsequently, I should like to say a word about the general attitude of the British Government towards the fate of the former Federal civil servants. At the time of the Victoria Falls Conference Her Majesty's Government made it clear that they intended to deal with this matter with the greatest sympathy. Mr. Butler, then First Secretary of State, said on July 11 last:
"We shall he judged by how we solve it."
Your Lordships will also remember that he said in another place, in regard to the Federal Public Service:
"Their future is in our hands."

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In practice, from the very beginning the attitude of the United Kingdom civil servants on Committee A and the Civil Service sub-committee which dealt with the detailed arrangements left much to be desired. With their great knowledge on matters of compensation, they undoubtedly succeeded in forcing their views upon the representatives of the Territorial Governments and the Federal Government, who lacked their experience of these affairs. Then, I am sorry to say, at a later stage the Commonwealth Relations Office, with no doubt the Treasury firmly behind them, have shown themselves, in my judgment, to be unsympathetic and niggardly to the point of meanness.
This unjust treatment of the Federal civil servants stands out all the more sharply because at this very time the expatriate members of the Oversea Service in the two Northern territories of the Federation are being offered terms of compensation, in the form of bonuses, amounting in some cases to twenty times what they would have received had they been Federal civil servants. The justification advanced by Her Majesty's Government for this shabby treatment was that the Federal Service was recruited locally. We all know, of course, that this was not always the case, and that the Federal Civil Service included a number of officers of the former Colonial Service who, because their departments were transferred wholesale to the Federal Government, had no alternative but to go over with them. We also know that, subsequent to the establishment of the Federation, large numbers of officers, mainly in the technical categories, were recruited in Britain and elsewhere overseas. But even granting the premise that it was technically a locally recruited service, the fact remains, as my noble friend has pointed out, that in the break-up of the West Indies Federation, which is analogous, local officers who were not offered further reappointment received similar terms to the standard expatriate terms.
I have pointed out previously in your Lordships' House that in the case of the Federation, on account of its multiracial character, very special considerations apply to the European and Asian civil servants taken over by the Northern
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Rhodesia Government and to the African civil servants taken over by the Southern
Rhodesia Government. In the case of Southern Rhodesia I am informed that 16 African members of the staff at Harare Hospital have been dismissed after accepting permanent transfers to the Southern Rhodesia service from the Federal Ministry of Health only a few months ago. Indeed, there are strong indications that, as was repeatedly pointed out by the Federal Public Service Staff Association, the Southern Rhodesia Government had recruited more civil servants than it could afford to employ: and the fear has been expressed that there is a risk that substantial reductions in salaries may have to be made in the near future.
Furthermore, there are about 1,200 officers from the Federal Service now serving in Southern Rhodesia on a provisional basis only, and these include doctors, teachers, agriculturalists and specialists in various spheres of administration. Many of them have already left, and I am afraid that many more will be leaving in the next two to five years. Warnings were given again and again by the staff associations—warnings which were repeated in this House—that this would happen if officers, and especially the technical officers, did not receive the treatment to which they thought themselves entitled.
To turn to Northern Rhodesia, there again the position of the civil servants transferred to the Northern Rhodesia Government is also giving rise to grave problems. The conditions under which offers of employment to former Federal civil servants would be made by the Government of Northern Rhodesia were accepted by the Federal Public Service Staff Association, and also by the Federal Government, on the assumption that no policy of Africanisation would be implemented during the career of the officers concerned. The Northern Rhodesia representative on the subcommittee for the Federal Public Service in fact strongly denied that a policy of localisation—which means the recruitment of officers of Northern Rhodesian origin—in Northern Rhodesia would mean Africanisation. It was on this basis that it was agreed there should be different terms for employment in Northern Rhodesia from those in Nyasaland, where a policy of Africanisation

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was fully admitted from the start. The Federal civil servants now employed by the Northern Rhodesia Government find themselves faced with a wholesale policy of Africanisation. They are deeply disturbed about this, and feel that they were "double-crossed" both on the sub-committee of the Federal Public Service and on Committee A. They are now asking that each officer should be allowed to have a second chance to opt whether to accept the previous provisions of service or to take contract terms, or, in the event of his refusing, to qualify for abolition of office with the additional one-third of his earned pension.
As I have also pointed out in a previous debate, there were a number of former Federal officers, who, on transfer from Northern Rhodesia to the Federation, were paid an allowance of £240 a year for a period of fifteen years on the basis of their having purchased or built houses within the Federal area. The Territorial Governments have refused to continue comparable housing grants. This means that a number of officers who had made their personal financial arrangements on the assumption that grants would continue have been placed in great financial difficulties.
When, at the insistence of the United Kingdom representatives on the Federal Public Service Sub-Committee, the Governments concerned finally agreed there should be no lump sum compensation it was also decided that sympathetic consideration should be given to cases of hardship. Those of us who felt strongly that lump sum compensation should be given throughout, as in the case of the Oversea Civil Service, reluctantly accepted the position on the assumption that this undertaking for dealing with cases of hardship would really mean something. What has it meant in practice? A special commissioner was appointed to consider these cases. He is a chartered accountant in Salisbury, and I understand that he was expected to complete his work by the end of last month. While everyone feared that an appointment of this sort meant that there could be no general scheme of compensation for redundant officers, we all thought that at least there would be a real attempt to provide adequate compensation for those most seriously affected.
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As the noble Earl opposite said, the terms of the special commissioner have never been divulged. But, as has already been said, out of 40 cases submitted to him only 2 have been accepted, and each of these was for a very limited amount— in one case, it was for a temporary officer in Nyasaland, an old lady, who received two months' pay. Each of the officers applying for relief of hardship had to fill up a form which I can only describe as a degrading type of means test, which included a number of items, to which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has already referred. My noble friend Lord Salisbury quoted some examples of those rejected. If you read through the list, so it continues. They are mostly people with over twelve years' service and no prospect of employment, because of age, health or for some other reason. Surely, my Lords, it is not too late for this list to be revised on a different basis which would give some greater measure of satisfaction to these unfortunate people.
In other ways, too, the former Federal public servants are being discriminated against. On March 26 this year there appeared in the Daily Telegraph an advertisement on behalf of the Civil Service for 15 posts in the Commonwealth Service of the Home Civil Service. Special age concessions were given to candidates with regular service in Her Majesty's Forces, the Oversea Civil Service or the Sudan Service, but none for the former Federal Public Service. Is there any reason why a concession of this sort, especially in Commonwealth service, should not be extended, so as to include ex-Federal officers, at any rate those who were recruited from the United Kingdom?
I have repeatedly drawn your Lordships' attention to the discrimination against the former Federal Public Service in regard to the application of the Pensions (Increases) Act, 1962. It has been stated by the Government that members of the Southern Rhodesian and Federal Public Service would not be eligible under that Act. This is perhaps understandable in the case of Southern Rhodesia which, having been self-governing for some forty years, can be expected to extend fair treatment in the matter of pensions increases based on the cost of living to its retired civil servants. But in the case of the Federal civil servants, there will be no Federal

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Government and no one else to make any increases; nor will there be any funds from which increases can be made. It has been argued again that because the Federal Public Service was not recruited in this country or under the authority of a Secretary of State, it could not be brought within the scope of this legislation. But, surely, my Lords, this has no validity at all, considering the fact that the Sudan civil servants, who were far more remote than the Federal civil servants and, indeed, the former Egyptian civil servants from pre-1923 were included in the Schedule to the Act. It would seem that the barest justice would demand that the Federal Public Service should at once be brought within the full purview of this Act.
I was informed recently in Salisbury that a Permanent Pensioners' Association has been formed, and has applied for affiliation to the Overseas Service Pensioners' Association in London. I hope that they will be accepted, and I hope also that they will be recognised by Her Majesty's Government as the permanent channel for representations to them in matters affecting the former Federal Service.
There are many other questions I should have liked to touch upon this afternoon, some of which have already been mentioned. The question of currency was one, and security of pensions was another. I do not wish, however, to detain your Lordships any longer. I have been deeply perturbed by the attitude of Her Majesty's Government over the past nine months in regard to the interests of the former Federal public servants. It seems to me that there has been a most conspicuous lack of generosity and fairness towards members of that Service, the dissolution of which in the last resort depended on decisions and actions of Her Majesty's Government.
It seems to me that if there ever was a time when pressure should have been brought to bear on the Treasury to go out of their way to be generous, it was surely this. Instead, there seems to have been a policy of disengagement from matters concerning the implementation of the agreement on the Federal Public Service by Her Majesty's Government. In a recent letter to the Federal Public Service for example, the Commonwealth
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Relations Office said that in the application of the terms of the agreement the British Government were not competent to intervene. This leaves the former Federal officers with virtually no channels of appeal in matters of interpretation of the agreement by the territorial Government or Her Majesty's Government. Surely it is a responsibility of the British Government to keep a watch on this situation and to hear appeals where necessary, at any time during the period at any rate of provisional transfer which extends up to May 31, 1969.
I trust that when my noble friend replies he will be able to satisfy us on some of these points this afternoon. I can only say that, failing that, I hope that my noble friend will put down a Motion before Parliament rises, when we shall have an opportunity of bringing the matter to a Vote and testing the feelings of the House on this sorry affair.
4.44 p.m.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, I think your Lordships must have been shocked by the case histories which my noble friend Lord Salisbury gave to you at the beginning of this discussion. I think you must have been shocked and ashamed at the things that are done in your name. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in a very persuasive speech, said that after all it was no great sum of money for which we were asking. But is that not the trouble? When it is a question of spending hundreds of millions of pounds of the taxpayers' money, the Treasury goes remarkably quietly—it is practically a passenger. But when it is a question of squeezing out a few hundred pounds for some loyal subjects of Her Majesty, whose only crime is that they have served Her Majesty faithfully for a number of years, then the Treasury shows that it has the strength and the power that it had a generation ago.
I should like briefly to give your Lordships one more case history. It concerns a humble person, a clerk stenographer, a woman, a person of no means whatever, the kind of person with whom the Treasury delights to have a trial of strength. This lady has served the Nyasaland Government for a period of seventeen years. She is not a designated officer, although at least half a dozen in precisely the same circumstances

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have been designated, two of whom were not even British subjects, one being an Austrian and one a German. This lady made such representations as she could, and she received a letter from the Chief Secretary of the Nyasaland Government
saying that he was ordered by my right honourable friend the Secretary for
Technical Co-operation to reply thus:
"I am to say that you are not acceptable for designation … as you were recruited in 1947 as a temporary clerk on local temporary terms and your initial appointments in 1940 and 1947 were to temporary posts which did not enjoy expatriate terms of service and which were not posts for which the Colonial Office or the Crown Agents were a normal channel of recruitment."
In other words, there were three points outstanding against this application.
The first point was that the lady was recruited as a temporary clerk. In fact, two years after her appointment as a temporary clerk in 1947 she was confirmed as a member of the permanent Civil Service. The second point was that her original appointments were on a temporary basis which did not enjoy expatriate terms of service. Again, when she was confirmed as a permanent member of the Civil Service it was on the normal expatriate terms of service, and in fact she went on overseas leave in 1950, 1954, 1958 and 1962. Finally, it was said that it was a post for which neither the Colonial Office nor the Crown Agents were a normal channel of recruitment. In fact, the Crown Agents were the normal channel of recruitment. She was able to show that each one of those three arguments was invalid, and nobody has denied that. When I raised the matter with my right honourable friend the Secretary for Technical Co-operation, he did not dispute that the points on which she had beer refused were groundless. All he could say was that you had to interpret the scheme in the broad spirit that there would be hard cases, and that this was one of the hard cases. I believe that that was very shabby treatment indeed, and I think it was unjustifiable.
When he raised this Question, my noble friend dealt with the whole field of non-designated officers, Federal or belonging to any of the three Territories, and I am confining myself simply to the case of Nyasaland because it is the Territory with which I happen to be
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more familiar; and the case of the Nyasaland non-designated officers seems to me to have very special circumstances. There are only a dozen of these unfortunate people, and, as the noble Earl said, it would cost practically nothing to give them fair treatment. It would not, in fact, create a precedent, because, in Nyasaland, as distinct from the other two Territories, there was no locally-based service; the whole service was expatriate. So the Government could deal with Nysaland, if they wanted to, without creating a precedent anywhere else.
There is just one other point I should like to make on Nyasaland. If it had not been a constitutional development, this case of the non-designated officers would normally have gone to arbitration under the Whitley Council machinery. But Her Majesty's Government, in the new circumstances, have said that arbitration is not appropriate. This lady, of whom I have been speaking, this unhappy clerk-stenographer, a middle-aged woman with no future to look forward to and nd compensation, personally wrote a letter to the Prime Minister, Dr. Banda, asking him whether, in default of Her Majesty's Government, he would not submit the matter to arbitration. She received a reply through the Prime Minister's Secretary in which he said that the Prime Minister had studied her representations and
"while he appreciates the feelings which have prompted you to address him on the matter, he feels bound to observe that, in essence, the issue is one between the officers concerned and Her Majesty's Government."
He goes on to say that
"… even if he were to agree to arbitration, such arbitration would necessarily he fruitless unless Her Majesty's Government was prepared to be a party to it and to accept the arbitrator's ruling."
So, as far as Dr. Banda is concerned, the ball is firmly in the court of Her Majesty's Government, and it seems to me that they ought to play it. But not only did Dr. Banda send that reply to the clerk-stenographer; he also asked her to go to see him; and I think that is an indication that the Prime Minister of Nyasaland is not feeling very happy about the treatment which is being accorded by Her Majesty's Government.
My Lords, I hope that the noble Duke who is going to reply in a few moments

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will be able to say that the Government will have another look at this which seems to me to be a really quite scandalous situation. The Government must have another look at it. If he is not able to say that, then I very much hope that my noble friend will raise the matter on another occasion when we can put it to the test.
4.55 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, in company with most noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon, I have also been in these three Territories fairly recently, and I have come across a good many former Federal civil servants who are very closely connected with the matter we are discussing to-day. But I will not repeat, though I easily could, a further list of hard cases, because those noble Lords who have spoken have said quite enough to make it abundantly clear that there are not just a few isolated instances of shabby treatment; they are, unhappily, far too widespread. That, I think, must be
accepted by all who have listened to this debate and who have studied the question. I would rather deal with the wider aspects of the matter.
It is surely a question essentially of what is just, fair and decent treatment. Here we have a group of men and women, Europeans and Africans, high and low-level civil servants, clerks and stenographers, male nurses, hospital orderlies, people of that kind, who, when federation started, for one reason or another decided that they would work for the Federation. Some of them went into the Federal Civil Service because, in fact, there was no other job for them to do. Others went in because there were certain opportunities for promotion, and very many went in because they really believed that this offered the solution to the problems of the countries where they had made their homes, where some of them had been born and to which some had gone out from this country. In other words, they went there to do a job which was considered important, which our Government
in this country also considered important and which they were doing their best to make a success. For reasons into which we need not go that venture has failed.
The question, quite simply, is: is there any moral, not legal, obligation, upon
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the Government and the people of this country to treat those men and women who tried to make a "go" of things fairly, generously or legalistically? It is not a question of putting the blame on the Treasury in this country. It is quite right, of course, for the Treasury to do its best to minimise the burden on the British taxpayer and to keep a very close eye on the expenditure of all Departments. So it would be wrong for us to think that this is purely a Treasury matter. It is a matter involving the goodwill of the Government and their desire to do the right thing to people who we all admit are being shabbily treated and who we all admit have done their best to do a good job, whether it was at high level or low level.
We often talk about the impersonal-ness of the Civil Service as a whole; how it operates by precedent; how it is afraid of doing anything new; how it is bound by rules. It is right that it should be bound by rules; it is right that it should be frightened of creating precedents. It is not the job of the Civil Service or the Treasury to create precedents or to embark on an action which is going to open the door wide to all sorts of expenditure in the years to come. But it is the job of the members of this Government from time to time, when the occasion warrants it, to say to the civil servants: "We agree that this is a dangerous thing, that this may create a precedent; but, in the interests of justice, fair dealing and the good name of this country, we are going to do it, knowing full well what we are doing." There is no mistake about that.
Surely, what should guide Her Majesty's Government in this matter is to make use of the same standards of behaviour that any member of Her Majesty's Government would use in his own business and in his own private affairs. I suggest to noble Lords and to the noble Duke opposite that if any of Her Majesty's Ministers in his personal capacity were confronted with the situation where he had been instrumental in bringing about a merger of three considerable businesses and had persuaded some of the executives in them at various levels to give up their jobs, their pension rights, and their prospects with the businesses they had been with all their lives and join the

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larger consortium because it was going to be good for the group that that should be done, and then some ten or twelve years later the consortium failed, went bankrupt, he would not wash his hands of his responsibility towards those people whom he had persuaded to go into that bankrupt business. He would not say, "We will leave it to the accountants, leave it to somebody else to work out what compensation should be paid". Of course, that would not happen. Of course, the individual members of the Government would feel personally responsible for the people they had personally persuaded to change jobs and would do all in their power to see they were not sufferers from having listened to that advice ten years ago.
And this is all we are asking Her Majesty's Government to do to-day. We are asking them to undertake the responsibility for the wellbeing of these people, of whom we have heard only a minute proportion of examples out of the total, so that they will not be the sufferers. And I can assure Her Majesty's Government that if they were to do this there would be no outcry whatsover from the country that taxpayers' money was being squandered; there would be a feeling of great relief that for once this country was acting in an honourable—not generous, but honourable—manner towards these people who had served us well and who, through no fault of their own, were being thrown out with pitiable pensions and very often no prospects at an age when it is impossible to get any other job.
I will not detain your Lordships longer. Enough has been said already to show that this case is one of the strongest which has been put forward to the Government for a very long time, and the sums of money involved are not astronomical at all; they are well within the competence of the Government to deal with speedily. All I would do is to echo the hopes expressed by other noble Lords who have spoken. While I very warmly congratulate the noble Duke on his new and very well-deserved honour, I express the hope that the fact that he has received this honour, which is an indication of the esteem in which he is quite rightly held, will add to the weight of his personal voice in these matters, which I am sure
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will be on the side of righteousness, and that he will be able, having listened to these arguments, even if he was not already convinced, to persuade his colleagues in the Government to think once more about this matter, and before it is too late prevent this wrong from being done to this large number of deserving cases who are dependent upon nobody at this stage other than Her Majesty's Government.
5.3 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am quite certain that all of us who have listened to this debate have been extremely impressed, and indeed moved, not only by the eloquence but by the burning conviction of Members of this House who have spoken on this matter. I have also been greatly struck by the fact that this criticism has come from all parts of the House. When I think of what some noble Lords have said, and the fact that their remarks have been agreed to by noble Lords from the other side of the House; and when I recall the radical differences of opinion on the future of the territory of Central Africa, I can but feel that the suggested adversity of some of the undesignated former officers of Central Africa has certainly made strange bedfellows this afternoon.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: What does that mean?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: It means that people who differ radically on how the future of Central Africa should be conducted are agreed on this point.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, this is the second time to-day—the other occasion concerned the Leader of the House, I think—that a Minister has rebuked two Members sitting on opposite sides of the House because they agree about something that is not of a Party political character. Is there something offensive about noble Lords on opposite sides agreeing?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, perhaps I might intervene, since the noble Lord mentioned my name. I am beginning to wonder what has happened to his sense of humour.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, perhaps the noble Duke will excuse my interrupting, as he has been interrupted already. I would point out that ever since India became independent both Parties have taken an equally responsible, and I think equally wise and generous, view of the deserts of British servants overseas.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I would certainly agree, and I would beg the House's pardon. In what is perhaps not an easy undertaking this afternoon, I was only making a remark that this was the case; and if I distressed the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition I am sorry, but it seemed a point worth making.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Hearing us called strange bedfellows I remarked on the strangeness of the language used.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I will, if I may, deal first with the officers who have served only in one of the three territories and then go on to discuss the position of the ex-Federal officers. In Northern Rhodesia there are approximately 800 overseas officers who have not been designated under the Oversea Service Aid Scheme, which is administered by the Secretary for Technical Co-operation. The reason is this. The definition of eligibility for designation under the Oversea Service Aid Scheme, which has been agreed with the Northern Rhodesian Government, is based on the two concepts of overseas status and recruitment through one of the recognised channels for Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service. The officers in Northern Rhodesia who have not been designated have thus failed to qualify under one of those two criteria. In many cases they have been officers locally recruited to posts for which the Secretary of State or the Crown Agents have not been a normal channel of recruitment, and in other cases we have had to regard them as local officers who could not satisfy the test for classification as an overseas officer.
Much as the Secretary for Technical Co-operation regrets the need to refuse designation to many officers of British origin serving in Northern Rhodesia, it should he borne in mind that the Aid Scheme was designed only for those officers for whom the British Govern-
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ment have over a number of years accepted special responsibilities as members of the Oversea Civil Service, and for contract officers recruited in the same way.
It has been made clear on a number of occasions that the British Government cannot acknowledge a direct responsibility for these non-designated officers comparable to that they have accepted in relation to members of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service, and that their terms of service are not the Secretary of State's direct responsibility. The question of any improvement of their terminal benefits lies, therefore, with the Northern Rhodesian Government. There is no possibility of designation for this whole group of officers; but individual officers' cases will continue to be carefully examined by the Department for Technical Co-operation.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I intervene? We understand, of course, about the entry into the Colonial Service in the past and the basis of qualification that would be required for designation. But surely there must be many cases among the people now concerned who have been appointed because you could not get other people to do the work through these designated channels, and who have been serving right the way through. Surely, on the basis of ordinary contract between employer and employee, in such circumstances there ought to be some humanity in the relationships now handed out to them.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I understand the noble Earl's point, but Her Majesty's Government have taken the view, and remain in the view, that the distinction must be drawn between designated and undesignated officers. The Northern Rhodesian Government have, however, shown an awareness of the position of these officers by introducing last January a special scheme under which they can now leave with earned pension, which becomes payable at once. Formerly these officers would have forfeited all pension rights if they had retired prematurely. In addition, if they either extend their service by another two years or alternatively are displaced in favour of local officers their pension is increased by one-third. And then they may compute part

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of their pension at a higher rate than obtained before.
The representatives of the non-designated officers have from time to time sought to have this scheme improved, and the matter was recently considered by a special Whitley committee, which agreed to recommend an improved scheme which would include an element of lump sum compensation. The Northern Rhodesian Government did not accept this recommendation, and the staff association has subsequently declared a dispute with the Government, who have now agreed to the appointment of a conciliator to try to bring the two parties together.
There are also a number of expatriate officers serving on local terms, who have voluntarily opted in the past to take these terms, and thus given up any link with the Secretary of State. The Northern Rhodesia Government have recently announced their decision to accept a policy of Africanisation in place of the previous localisation policy; and they have also decided that the officers who opted for local terms may now be allowed to give them up and so become eligible to retire on the same terms as in the non-designated officers' scheme which I have already described.
I come now to my noble friend Lord Coleraine. My figures are that in Nyasaland there are 16, as opposed to 12, pensionable non-designated officers, and the Nyasaland Government has introduced a scheme which allows them to retire at any time on earned pension. If they are required to retire they are eligible for abolition-of-office terms, which are broadly similar to the terms being given to the Northern Rhodesia officers. With all respect to my noble friend, I think it would be difficult to take Nyasaland in isolation from Northern Rhodesia. I take the point, but I still think it would be extremely difficult to regard Nyasaland in isolation from the other territories.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, I accept that. Then the answer would seem to be: treat them all alike, treat them more generously.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, the Southern Rhodesia service is a wholly local service and is not within
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the Overseas Service Aid Scheme, so no question of designation arises.
I turn now to the position of ex-Federal officers whose terminal benefits are provided for in the Dissolution Order in Council on terms agreed between the Federal and the territorial Governments in Central Africa and the British Government. These benefits took account of the fact that as the terms of service of the Federal Public Service admitted no connection with any country outside the Federation, no question therefore arose of accepting Federal civil servants as members of Her Majesty's Government's Oversea Civil Service, or providing them on designation with the benefits of the Overseas Service Aid Scheme. As I said in the debate on December 17 of last year [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 254 (No. 19), col. 121]:
"These arrangements were formulated after most careful and exhaustive discussion in Committee, and in the view of Her Majesty's Government constitute a fair and equitable balancing of all the complicated factors which had to be taken into account. They were agreed and accepted in full by all the Governments concerned—that is, by the Federal Government, as well as by the three territorial Governments and by Her Majesty's Government."
My noble friend Lord Colyton raised the matter of hardship cases. As the noble Lord will know, the Federal Public Service Association, before dissolution, submitted proposals which had the support of the Federal Government that, to give effect to the undertaking of the Governments concerned to give sympathetic consideration to cases of hardship among officers to whom no offer of further employment was made, there should be a general scheme of compensation over and above the terminal benefits for the public service provided for in the Dissolution Order. The territorial Governments and the British Government carefully considered these proposals, but took the view that a scheme of this nature would go beyond the intention of their earlier undertaking and would involve reopening the principles of the agreement on terminal benefits already reached. The Governments did agree, however, that there should be a scheme for the relief of individual cases of hardship among redundant Federal officers, and that the responsibility for this scheme should be placed on the Liquidating Agency as the competent body for making actual payments.

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The special commissioner for the consideration of hardship cases was appointed by the Agency and is responsible to it. His terms of reference and method of work are entirely matters for the Agency which, as my noble friend will know, consists of representatives of the three territorial Governments. Again, my figures are not quite the same as those that have been quoted on hardship cases. I understand that 28 applications for assistance have been received; five have been accepted; 21 rejected, and two are under consideration. I think we should consider these figures against the background that, out of a total of 35,000 former Federal officers in employment, 400 established officers were not offered employment by the Federal Governments; and in those circumstances 28 applications for hardship grants is not perhaps as unsatisfactory as might be considered if you take in isolation the figures of applicants applying and of applications being granted.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, might I ask the noble Duke a question? Neither he nor the Government have given the terms of reference of the investigator. Of course, within the limitations placed upon him it may be that he has done his best. But it might not be possible for him to take account of many of those factors which to most of us are relevant. I wonder whether it would be possible for the Government to issue the terms of reference that have been given to the investigator.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Duke whether he is in a position to answer my question, about what the special commissioner regards as a living wage? Does a man, or his family, have to be starving before he can get any help? If that is the view, as I believe it is in Salisbury, obviously a great many people who are entitled to help are not asking for it. Can he give any idea of what is regarded as being a living or a minimum wage, below which anybody would be entitled to help from the special commissioner?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, as I have said, this is a matter for the commissioner appointed by the Liquidating Agency. I cannot give the
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House his terms of reference, but I have no reason to suppose that he is an inhuman man.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Nobody is suggesting that he is an inhuman man. I am sure that the last thing anybody in the House would like is for the special commissioner, or anybody in his office, to feel that we think that he is behaving in an inhuman way. All we want to know is what rules are being applied, and whether those rules can be regarded as equitable and fair.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I take the noble Earl's point. It is a question of how hardship is assessed. I can only repeat the figures that I have given, that, of the cases remitted to the commissioner, by no means all have been refused. I agree that it is far from totally convincing, but it is evident that what the commissioner regards as hardship is reasonable. If I were asked to define what is "hardship", my reply would be that it is difficult to do so, as I am sure the noble Earl would agree. But it is for the Liquidating Agency to appoint the commissioner, and it is for the commissioner to decide. I think I can go no further than that.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask why we cannot have the terms of reference?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am afraid that I have not the terms of reference with me; but I will certainly obtain them and let both noble Earls have them.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I know that it is unfair to press the noble Duke for details that he has not with him at the moment; but surely it is impossible for the House to come to a determination as to whether or not these people are being fairly treated without knowing what are the rules which are being applied and the terms which are being applied. It is true that that may not be a matter for Her Majesty's Government—I think most likely it is not: it may be a matter which has been settled by the Liquidating Agency. But surely it is impossible for the House to come to a conclusion as to whether we are dealing fairly with these people—in equity, not in law—unless we know what the conditions are. Would it not be possible, without now pressing

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the noble Duke for details that he does not have, for him to put in the Library, so that we can all see them, a statement of the conditions which this Liquidating Agency has laid down for the gentleman who has to assess the applications for compensation? Without such information, it seems to me, nobody could come to any conclusion as to whether or not this is fair.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREI will readily give the House an undertaking to get as full information as possible from Salisbury as to the terms of reference for the commissioner who is to inquire into cases of hardship and the yardsticks by which he is to assess when a case is one of genuine hardship and when it is not. I will make the information available to the House as soon as I possibly can.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, can the noble Duke also give an undertaking that there will be an extension of the period during which people can apply? I have been given to understand that it ran to the end of May. if there have been only 26 applications out of many hundreds, there ought to be an extension of the period to enable others to come forward, for I am sure that they exist.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: That is an undertaking which I cannot give, because the last word is not with the British Government. But no doubt this debate will be read by all those concerned, and the remarks of my noble friend will be duly noted. It would be wrong for me to say that I will give an undertaking that this will be done, because I have not the authority to say so.
I should like now to turn to the eligibility of ex-Federal officers for Home Civil Service competitions. It has been agreed that such officers who were previously members of H.M.O.C.S. and who subsequently transferred to the service of the Federal Government should be allowed the same concessions for entry as other ex-members of H.M.O.C.S. It is not possible to extend these concessions to Federal officers without previous H.M.O.C.S. service, since, as I have already said, the terms of service of the Federal Public Service admitted no connection with any country outside the Federation and the concessions are limited to those overseas officers for
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whose recruitment the British Government were originally responsible.
Representations have been received from the Federal Public Service Association to the effect that, since the Northern Rhodesian Government has now announced a policy of Africanisation, and thus moved away from the former policy of localisation which was in force when these people exercised their option whether or not to join the Northern Rhodesia service, they should be given the opportunity to reconsider their choice of option. My noble friend Lord Colyton made this point. The Secretary of State is in communication with the Northern Rhodesia Government on this matter, but I am not in a position to say anything further to-day than that discussions are going on. I should, perhaps, draw attention to the fact that, under their present conditions of service, these officers already have the right to retire after two years' territorial service with their pensions increased by as much as one-third.
My noble friend Lord Colyton raised a number of further matters relating to the general Public Service settlement. It is not possible at this stage to reopen these matters, already agreed between five Governments, but I might usefully say a few words in further explanation on a number of them. As your Lordships have noted, the three territorial Governments and the British Government have now entered into a Public Officers Agreement, to-day published as a White Paper (Cmnd. 2387). In this Agreement the Governments undertake not to alter to the detriment of any ex-Federal officer the pensions and terminal benefits laid down by the Dissolution Order and to maintain the arrangements for the Pension Fund, the Pension Agency and the Trustees of the Fund. The Crown Agents for Oversea Governments and Administrations have been appointed as Trustees of the Fund.
Clause 5 of the Agreement expresses the accepted obligation of the Governments to make good in agreed proportion any actuarial deficit in the Pension Fund to the extent necessary to meet the terminal benefits. Clauses 6 to 8 provide for
the Currency Option which all the Governments have agreed should be available to pensioners when separate territorial currencies come into operation.

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This was raised by my noble friend Lord Colyton. In view of the local character of the Federal Public Service and the nature of the Fund from which pensions will be payable the Governments did not feel able to accept the proposal that pensions should be calculated and paid in sterling. In Clauses 5(6) and 8(2) the Governments undertake not to place exchange control or other restrictions on remittances either to the Fund itself or to individual pensioners. Clauses 9 and 10 provide for the taxation arrangements which will be applied by the
Governments to pension payments and for the scheduling by the three territories of pensionable service with other Governments, so that arrangements can he made for calculating mixed pensions from all the Governments concerned when the officers retire. Finally, as regards pensions increases the British Government have carefully considered the suggestion that Federal pensions should be brought under the United Kingdom Pensions (Increases) Act, 1962.
This Act provides for the payment of pension supplements to officers of H.M.O.C.S. and certain other persons, such as members of the Sudan Political Service, for whose recruitment the British Government was responsible. The position of ex-Federal officers is basically different, since they were
recruited by their own Government, as members of a locally based service, and not by or on behalf of a Secretary of State. Moreover for the British Government, unilaterally, to provide for payments to ex-Federal officers under the Act would be inconsistent with the agreement reached on this matter between the Governments concerned.
Former members of H.M.O.C.S. transferred to the Federal Service will, however, be eligible for pension supplements in respect of that part of their final pension deriving from service in Northern Rhodesia or Nyasaland or any other overseas territory scheduled in the Overseas Service (Pensions Supplements) Regulations, 1963.
I think it was my noble kinsman Lord Salisbury who raised the point of Her Majesty's oversea civil servants who joined the Federal Service. This was carefully considered in the inter-govern-
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mental Committee last December before dissolution, but it was concluded that it was not possible to differentiate in regard to terminal benefits between those people and other members of the same Service.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Why?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I was not present at that Committee, but, as I understand their reasons, they were that once you drew a sub-distinction between two different members of the same Service you got yourself involved in a greater degree of inequality than you would do if you maintained them as one Service.
The position of ex-Federal officers is basically different, since they were recruited by their own Government as members of a locally-based service. Former members of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service transferred to the Federal Service will, however, be eligible for pension supplements in respect of that part of their final pension. The Territorial Governments have accepted—and their acceptance is embodied in Clause 11 of the Agreement—that they will give the same general consideration to the interests of Federal pensioners as they give to the interests of their own pensioners. I think we should draw full significance from that.
Having listened with great interest to the debate, I am aware that much of what
I have said will be unsympathetically received by those who have taken part in
the debate, and possibly by those who have listened to it. This matter was gone into very fully by a Committee of all five Governments last December, and I am afraid I cannot accept (I am not sure which noble Lord said it, but it was said during the course of the debate) that the Britain Government told their representatives exactly what to say. I think that less than justice is being done. This Committee, represented by very distinguished civil servants, discussed the matter fully and frankly, and these are the conclusions which they have come to as being just and right. It would not be fair to cast Her Majesty's Government as the complete villains of the piece.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I was responsible for that remark, and I suggest to the noble Duke that, on

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reconsideration, he would agree that the Government must take responsibility for the actions and words of civil servants.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I would certainly do that, but what I intended to imply was that we were only one of five delegations. All five delegations were in agreement on it.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am suggesting that the Government instructed their own civil servants. I am not suggesting that they instructed the civil servants of other Governments.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I must have misled the noble Earl. I was saying that we did not rule the whole roost at the conference. We were one delegation among five.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, the noble Duke said that all five Governments were in agreement on this matter. Does he really maintain that if the British Government had accepted the responsibility for its own people the other four Governments would have objected? That does not seem to me to be probable.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, as I say, I was not myself present at the Conference, but we were one delegation among five. I can only repeat what I have said: that these conclusions were unanimously agreed to by all five delegations.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, the noble Duke has had a great many interruptions, but may I ask him about two points on which I did touch? One concerned the question of the advertisements for the British Civil Service, and whether it would not be possible to extend to the ex-Federal public servants the same age concessions as are extended to other members of the Oversea Civil Service? The other point is the question of housing allowances for the ex-Northern Rhodesian Federal civil servants.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I should like to look at the first point, and perhaps I could correspond with my noble friend. On housing, I have made inquiries during the course of the debate to clear up this point, and I can say that it was put to the Territorial Governments at the Conference but
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received very strong opposition from the Territories, particularly from Southern Rhodesia, who did not want to make this a precedent condition.
LORD COLYTON: It referred only to the Northern Rhodesia officers, as I understand it.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I think that other Territories thought that if a concession of this kind were made it would make a precedent for this case. But the reason why it was not taken up was because of opposition from the Territorial Governments.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sorry to prolong the interruptions of the noble Duke. I think he has done his best to reply in the debate. But would he not agree that the circumstances in the case which the noble Marquess has raised today have no real precedent in the case of many of the countries for which we have agreed to independence in the last two or three decades, and that it therefore needs to be treated on a somewhat different basis? In almost every case that I remember there has been an ad hoc Government remaining for the ad hoc territory which has been given independence. Perhaps the biggest difference was the division of Pakistan from India; but, nevertheless, there were two Governments there, of native capacity, dealing with the whole territory then getting independence.
Here is a different situation. Here is a territory set up by the British Government, not in every case on a basis accepted by the constituent members of the territory to be set up, but set up by British Statute, in order that there may be a Territorial Government of that country. That Government was brought to an end by a decision of the British Government after certain troubles had arisen therein. Surely, on that basis they have an overwhelmingly greater responsibility for ensuring justice for the civil servants concerned than even there was in the previous cases which had mostly been settled so satisfactorily. Therefore, I think the noble Marquess has been absolutely right in raising the points which he has done, and I wish the noble Duke could assure us that the Government have a greater appreciation

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of their responsibility in this matter, and could say whether or not their general financial proposals were sufficient in the light of the matters now being proceeded with.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I should very much like to be able to reassure the noble Earl, but I can only repeat what I have said. Her Majesty's Government have given this matter long and repeated consideration, and they believe that the conclusions to which they have come and the agreement that has now been signed to-day, and which can be read in the White Paper to which I alluded, are just. This is not a snap decision—we have given it long and anxious thought—and all the many long and complicated factors involved in it have been given full weight and full consideration. I can only say that Her Majesty's Government can see no reason to reconsider their decision.
EARL DELA WARR: My Lords, may I reassure your Lordships that I do not have the slightest intention of prolonging this debate? I came into the House not intending to speak, and having heard
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much of the case that was put to the Government I could not conceive that we should not get a satisfactory reply. There really seemed nothing more to say. I should just like to express profound sympathy, which I believe many of your Lordships will share, for the noble Duke in being sent into your Lordships' House with so miserable a case to present to us. I can only tell him, and other members of Her Majesty's Government here, that not only I but, I believe, many of your Lordships have found it most profoundly unconvincing, and I sincerely trust that the noble Marquess will take this matter further and will put down a Motion so that it will be possible for your Lordships to give expression to your feelings.

ISLE OF WIGHT RIVER AND WATER AUTHORITY BILL NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE CORPORATION BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before six o'clock.