Sitting of 2 July 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  ISLE OF WIGHT RIVER AND WATER AUTHORITY BILL
  Lords Amendments considered and agreed to.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Further consideration, as amended, deferred till Thursday next at seven o'clock.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Transfer to Secondary Education (Plowden Committee)
    Mr. Crossmanasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will request the Plowden Committee to present an interim report on the issue of the age of transfer.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in view of the evidence they have now received from the London County Council and other authorities, he will reconsider his decision not to request the Plowden Committee to present an interim report on the age of transfer.
    The Lord President of the Council and Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Quintin Hogg): I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) on 18th June.
    Mr. Crossman: Whilst appreciating that reply and also, I think, the further reasons which the right hon. and learned Gentleman gave in the debate last night,
    1516
    and which I have carefully read, may I put two supplementary questions to him? First of all, has he given due weight to the problem of those local authorities where the so-called experiment has been going on for some years and where there is a danger in two or three more years of its hardening into an irreversible fait accompli, as, for example, in Coventry? Secondly, has the right hon. and learned Gentleman given due weight to the powerful evidence of the National Union of Teachers given to the Plowden Committee, where it insists that some order must be introduced into the administrative chaos now developing?
    Mr. Hogg: I have considered both points. The second one, I think, tells in favour of my Answer, that this is a matter for the Plowden Committee and I must be guided as to the possibility of separating this issue from the other issues involved.
    Mr. Dalyell: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that this is a matter of great urgency for those parents who move from one part of the country to another and who may well be confronted with sending a son or daughter, who has been at a secondary of the particular problem which my hon. Friend has in mind—school, back to a primary school, if schemes such as the West Riding one are put into effect?
    Mr. Hogg: As I said last night, I agree that there is an element of urgency about it, but this is a fundamental question of educational organisation, and it is more important to give the right answer in due course rather than the wrong answer quickly.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that with regard to transfers it quite often happens that people are transferred and then find that the educational arrangements of local authorities differ tremendously in the terms and grants given as between one local authority area and another? Has my right hon. and learned Friend ever had this examined so as to ensure that, by and large, people who are transferred get the same kind of treatment as that they started with?
    Mr. Hogg: I am not absolutely sure
    Dame Irene Ward: I will let my right hon. and learned Friend know.
    Mr. Hogg: —but if she will make it plain to me, as I am sure she will, I will look into the question.

    St. Albans Roman Catholic Secondary School, Blackburn
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why he has refused to include the rebuilding of St. Albans Roman Catholic secondary school in the major school building programme of the Blackburn authority for 1965–66.
    Mr. Hogg: The authority gave priority in its 1965–66 proposals to a large county secondary school project which has been approved. It was not possible to include another project of similar size in the same programme.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the Minister aware that this county project in Lammack school is designed to replace buildings which were condemned as unsuitable for secondary education 17 years ago, but that equally the St. Albans Roman Catholic Secondary School is urgently needed to replace conditions which, according to his own inspectors' report, are quite intolerable from an educational point of view? Is it not unfair to play off one project against another when both are of such equal and admitted urgency?
    Mr. Hogg: The Roman Catholics in the hon. Lady's constituency got a secondary school, St. Mary's, in this year's programme. They are going to get in the year 1966–67 the primary school attached to the one about which she is talking and which is allowed for 1967–68, so that I do not think that they have done very badly.

    Lung Cancer (Exhaust Fumes)
    Mr. Dudley Smithasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what investigations are taking place into the theory that petrol fumes may be a primary cause of lung cancer; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State for Education and Science (Sir Edward Boyle): There
    1518
    is no evidence to suggest that petrol engine exhaust fumes are an important cause of lung cancer, whether primary or not, but research on the possible effect on health of these and other types of exhaust products continues to be undertaken by the Medical Research Council as part of its programme of work on air pollution.
    Mr. Smith: Would my right hon. Friend agree that pollution from petrol and diesel fumes has increased dramatically in the past few years in urban areas and also that the lung cancer figures for the same areas have increased dramatically? Is not this more than a coincidence? In view of this, does not my right hon. Friend think it important to undertake as intensive an inquiry as the medical profession undertook into the dangers of cigarette smoking?
    Sir E. Boyle: I am not sure that a professional logician would put the point quite as simply as my hon. Friend has put it. Petrol fumes are more hazardous than diesel fumes in the sense that, unlike diesel fumes, they contain carbon monoxide which is a toxic gas, but there is no evidence that they are more likely to be a cause of lung cancer.

    Education Facilities, Stoke-on-Trent
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals for improved education facilities have been made to him by the City of Stoke-on-Trent; what provision has been approved by him; to what extent the Newsom and Robbins Reports are to be implemented in the City; and by what dates this will be achieved.
    Mr. Hogg: The authority has made plans for the introduction of comprehensive schools and the establishment of a junior college. Notices of the proposals under Section 13 of the Education Act, 1944, have been published and the statutory period for objection is now running. I cannot therefore make any further comment on this.
    With regard to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the speech of my right hon. Friend on 27th January.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Am I to take that Answer to mean that the Minister is going to co-operate with the local education authority to the maximum extent in order to get the best results?
    Mr. Hogg: It means that I hope that I will co-operate with the local education authority and that the local education authority will co-operate with me to get the best results.

    Primary Schools, Lancashire
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many schemes have been submitted to him by the Lancashire Education Department for the replacement of unsatisfactory primary schools; how many of the classes in the schools concerned contain more than 30 pupils; how many such schemes have been approved; how many are within industrial areas; by what date such new primary schools will be provided; and by what date the Newsom Report will be implemented in Lancashire.
    Mr. Hogg: The authority proposed 27 projects for the 1965–68 major programmes which would result in the replacement of existing primary accommodation. The schools had about 140 classes with more than 30 pupils. Twelve projects have been approved. Of these 10 are in urban areas. I cannot forecast when they will be completed, but it normally takes about 18 months to build a small primary school. The recommendations of the Newsom Committee which call for local initiative are not of the kind which can be implemented by specific dates.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Is the Minister aware that those of us who have spent our lives in the industrial conditions existing in this part of the country, and our relatives who live there, are affected by the terribly black legacy that has been left to us? Should not this large industrial area be given complete priority in order to bring about the standards which the people deserve and which our economy demands?
    Mr. Hogg: The hon. Member's interest in his old county is well appreciated, but I rather doubt whether complete priority given to it would meet with the complete approval of other hon. Members.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I am not concerned about other hon. Members. I want to make it quite clear on behalf of the people whether it is the Minister's desire to implement the Newsom Report as quickly as possible.
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, we have accepted the main recommendation and have said exactly what we are going to do about it, but the hon. Member asked me about its implementation in a particular area. I understood him to mean, not the raising of the school-leaving age which must be done on a national scale and by a date which has been announced, but the many other recommendations which do not all allow of a specific date to be mentioned. For instance, there is the in-service training for teachers and so on.

    Speech Therapists
    Mr. Merlyn Reesasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the national shortage of speech therapists in the School Health Service, particularly in the City of Leeds; what action he is taking to remedy this; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, there is a shortage of speech therapists, especially in the North. The training course at Manchester is now producing fully-trained speech therapists. Further developments including a three-year degree course at Newcastle University are being planned, and I have the position under review.
    Mr. Rees: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that until very recently in the City of Leeds the education authority had no speech therapists and that only through the greatest of effort were the services of three obtained? Could he inform the House what is the major factor causing the shortage of speech therapists?
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, my Department has begun discussions for that reason with the Leeds education authority about the establishment of another training course for this particular purpose. The shortage is mainly in the North, for reasons which are not peculiar to speech therapists.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that one of the causes of the shortage is that the remuneration of speech therapists compares very unfavourably with that of others in the education service and that this arises out of the complications in the Health Service, by which they are employed? Would he and the Minister of Health meet one or two of us from this side of the House to discuss the problem?
    Mr. Hogg: The question of salary scales for speech therapists, as the hon. Member suggested, is a matter for the Whitley Council for the Health Service, and any specific question related to that part of the matter would have to be put to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would it be of advantage to the right hon. and learned Member if he obtained the services of a speech therapist in order to avoid some of the speeches he has made recently?
    Mr. Hogg: I should hope that they would be more generally heard and more generally understood.

    Atomic Energy Authority (Exports)
    Commander Courtneyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is satisfied that the Atomic Energy Authority is properly equipped to exploit the export potential of advanced British nuclear reactors, techniques, and material; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir E. Boyle: The Authority's main task in relation to exports is to support the engineering industry's efforts to open up markets abroad for reactor systems, knowledge and material developed in the course of our own nuclear programme. I am satisfied that it is well equipped to do this. It has also had considerable success on its own account in selling radioisotopes, fuel and reprocessing services in overseas markets.
    Commander Courtney: Will my right hon. Friend answer two points? First, we have a great deal to sell, particularly in connection with advanced gas-cooled reactors and fast breeder reactors. Secondly, our American competitors are
    1522
    well ahead of us in this high pressure national salesmanship, as is shown in the aviation industry. Will he look at this matter again, because as he will appreciate from having been to America, his Department is not geared to a specific export drive?
    Sir E. Boyle: I shall gladly look at any evidence my hon. and gallant Friend chooses to send to me, but I should point out that for some years now the Authority has been the largest exporter of radioisotopes in the world and has a considerably encouraging record in the export of fuel elements and other special materials.

    Medical Education
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is now able to announce his decision to set up an inquiry into medical education; and what form the inquiry will take.
    Sir E. Boyle: No, Sir, but my right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement very shortly.

    School Building, Burntwood and Hammerwich
    Mr. Snowasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in deciding the future primary and secondary school building programme, he took into account the present population and the planned future population, including overspill, occupying both local authority and private development housing, in the parish of Burntwood, Staffordshire, and at Hammerwich.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Christopher Chataway): Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Snow: In view of that Answer, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that in this area there is acute disquiet about the congestion in classes in primary schools, especially where even under the development plan the numbers in classes are above the maximum permissible figure? Is he aware that I have today received from Staffordshire education department a revised calculation factor for estimating overspill population coming in and that, as a

    1523
    result of this, there is a serious deficit of primary school places?
    Mr. Chataway: As the hon. Member may know, Staffordshire has put to us two primary objects for 1965–68, one for 1966–67 which would have added only 16 places, which my right hon. Friend was not able to approve. The other is the Chase Terrace Primary School which was put forward by the authority initially for 1967–68, but which, in view of the new evidence, it has asked my right hon. and learned Friend to consider earlier. This he is prepared to do.

    Chase Terrace Secondary School, Staffordshire
    Mr. Snowasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will advance the starting date of the conversion of the Chase Terrace secondary modern school, Staffordshire, to a six-form comprehensive school, in view of the rapidly increasing population, including overspill and private development, and the limited share of grammar school places received by pupils in the area concerned, and in the light of the recommendation in 1960 by Her Majesty's Inspector.
    Mr. Chataway: My right hon. Friend can make no additions to the major school building programme for 1965–66, which is fully committed. He is quite willing to consider a proposal from the Staffordshire authority to exchange the Chase Terrace project which is in its 1966–67 programme for any other in its 1965–66 programme of the same value.
    Mr. Snow: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is absolutely unreasonable and that there is some evidence to suggest that there has not been a recent survey of the number of children in this area following the arrival of large numbers of overspill population? In view of this, is he aware that there is no freedom of choice at all for children who have achieved good results in the 11-plus examination and there is considerable frustration as a result of the tardy programme for the establishment of this comprehensive school?
    Mr. Chataway: These decisions are taken only on the basis of the best evidence available. On the basis of that
    1524
    evidence my right hon. and learned Friend was satisfied that the inclusion of the Chase Terrace project in 1966–67 would meet the area's needs.
    Miss Lee: Am I to take it from the Minister's reply that he is offering our local authority a choice of projects and that if it gives up something which is already included in the proposed building programme it can substitute something in its stead? After hearing all the representations made to him from the county and constituency level and knowing that this is an expanding area with considerable overspill populations, is this all that he can offer us?
    Mr. Chataway: I can assure the hon. Lady that the figures that the local education authority has collected have been very carefully studied by my right hon. and learned Friend, but the 1965–66 programme is now fully committed and it is not possible to add further projects in that particular area.
    Mr. Snow: On a point of order. In view of the nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment very soon.

    Shorthand and Typewriting Teachers
    Sir J. Pitmanasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) how many classes are teaching shorthand and typewriting, respectively, in maintained secondary schools; and how many teachers who are employed to teach these subject are certificated as teachers and hold a teacher's certificate recognised by him for the teaching of such skills; how many are not certificated teachers but hold a recognised certificate for such skills; and how many hold no such certificate;
    (2) how many classes are teaching shorthand and typewriting, respectively, in further education institutions; and how many teachers who are employed to teach these subjects are certificated as teachers and hold a teacher's certificate recognised by him for the teaching of such skills; how many people are not certificated teachers but hold a recognised certificate for such skills; and how many hold no such certificate.
    Mr. Hogg: I am sorry to tell my hon. Friend that the information requested is not available.
    Sir J. Pitman: Will my right hon. and learned Friend recognise that the information which is unofficially available is that there is an immense shortage of such qualified teachers and that with the present policy of seeking to have qualified teachers in the service, it is inevitable that something will have to be done about the training of teachers of shorthand and typewriting, seeing that the present annual out-turn is not enough, with marriage, even to keep abreast of the deficiency? Will he kindly look into this?
    Mr. Hogg: I will certainly consider any material which my hon. Friend puts in my hands.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is not this a serious reflection on the Department's education statistics?
    Mr. Hogg: I do not think so. The situation is that up to now there has not existed any statistical information about subjects taught in schools. A pilot survey of 13 schools is at present in progress and may be followed by a broadly-based sample survey. At further education establishments, which may be more important in this connection and certainly not less important, details are collected only of courses leading to recognised qualifications, and shorthand and typewriting courses are not within this category. Local and area colleges of further education, numbering about 500, and evening institutes, of which there are 7,700, normally provide classes in shorthand and typing.

    Retired Teachers
    Mr. Boydenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will temporarily revise the pension and salary arrangements for superannuated teachers in order to give a substantial financial inducement for retired teachers to continue in teaching.
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will open negotiations towards adjusting the earnings and pension rights of retired teachers in such a way as to attract those willing to return to employment during the current shortage of teachers.
    Mr. Hogg: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given by my right hon. Friend, the Chief Secretary, to the
    1526
    hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) on Tuesday last.
    Mr. Boyden: Surely the right hon. and learned Gentleman wants to retain more superannuated teachers in the schools and is abysmally failing to do so. Yesterday, he was anxious to clear away cobwebs in the procedure of the House and to put right an odd anomaly. Does he not appreciate that this question is full of anomalies. Will not he apply his mind to it and discuss it with several of my hon. Friends in order to get something done?
    Mr. Hogg: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it has been considered and that many minds have been applied to it. I do not think that it is quite as simple as he says. Of course I will reexamine the matter yet once again, perhaps now, or at any rate if further information is available.
    Mrs. White: As he is responsible for educational standards and as this is a possible source of supply in the acute shortage which faces us over the next decade, at least for the schools, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that he must stand up to his colleagues in the Treasury who are concerned with other branches of the public service and point out that in the interests of education something should be done?
    Mr. Hogg: I understand the hon. Lady's point of view, but I do not think that it is quite as simple as that. Retired teachers now normally work to about half-time without any loss of pension. One has to consider the situation of teachers who retire and go back full-time, which is the main subject. Of course it is arguable that some more would go back full-time—more than now in spite of the strong financial incentives which there already are to make them do it—but, equally, if the regulations were changed, some, perfectly properly, would resign altogether on Monday and begin again on Tuesday, and no additional teachers would thereby be provided while a certain amount of extra expenditure would be incurred.
    Mrs. White: Cannot the right hon. and learned Gentleman do something about those who have retired at a salary level which has since been exceeded by those doing; comparable work? It is one

    1527
    of the greatest sources of irritation that future earnings should be determined by the level of salary at the time one leaves the service. This would not apply to the persons who, as he suggested, might resign on one day and start the next. If this matter were resolved, it would very much alleviate the situation.
    Mr. Hogg: I am obliged to the hon. Lady. I will look at all these matters yet once again. What she has said is a narrower issue that that put forward in the two Questions.

    Students (Dependants' Allowances)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science from what date he proposes to approve the increase in the dependants' allowances for university, training college, and other students in higher education; and by how much.
    Sir E. Boyle: The rates of allowances to students' dependants and the general value of the level of awards are, determined after taking into account the advice of the Standing Advisory Committee on Grants to Students. This Committee has only recently begun a review of the rates fixed in 1962 and its recommendations will be considered as soon as they are received.
    Mr. Boyden: Is it a fact that the Committee will not be able to make a recommendation in time for the next academic year? If so, this is very serious because it must be agreed that some of these students would not otherwise be brought into the teaching and other professions. Here is a pool of recruitment to teaching which is very much required, namely, mature people with families.
    Sir E. Boyle: The hon. Gentleman is quite correct in the first half of what he says. There is no desire to delay this matter, but it is for the Standing Advisory Committee to advise how much should be paid to the dependants of students. The current review is concerned with a number of matters, including those determining in what circumstances the dependants of students should qualify for allowances, but the issue of how much is a matter on which we must await the advice of the Standing Advisory Committee, which will be considered as soon as it is received.

    Medical Research Expenditure, Scotland
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of total medical research expenditure is incurred in Scotland; and to what extent this proportion has increased in the last 10 years.
    Sir E. Boyle: About 10½ per cent. of Government financial expenditure on medical research in 1963–64 was incurred in Scotland. The corresponding figure for the beginning of the decade 1954–64 is 9 per cent. These figures are approximate.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the right hon. Gentleman regard this trend as satisfactory? Is the proportion which Scotland is getting increasing satisfactorily, and, if not, can he say what the Government's policy is for improving and speeding up Scotland's share?
    Sir E. Boyle: Considering Scotland's share of the population of the United Kingdom, I consider that both the absolute figures which I have quoted and the trend are reasonable.
    Dr. Dickson Mabon: Should not the interests of medical education push aside these rather nationalistic issues and should we not concern ourselves with figures not related to population but to the distribution and output of medical schools and existing medical facilities, and should not the present Scottish proportion therefore be higher?
    Sir E. Boyle: If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on medical schools, which is an issue rather wider than that in the original Question, we will try to answer it.

    Marine Nuclear Propulsion (Padmore Report)
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now make a statement on the recommendations of the Padmore Report on marine nuclear propulsion.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has now studied the official report on marine reactor research; and if he will make a statement on Government policy towards the possible courses of action proposed by the working group.
    Sir E. Boyle: I cannot yet add to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) on 18th June or to that given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport yesterday to the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall).
    Dr. Mabon: Is not that a very disappointing Answer? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that since his right hon. and learned Friend in the last debate on this subject bolstered his argument by using the Padmore Report, which had not then been published, opinion on his own side has joined the Opposition in feeling that the Government must make some decision about this soon? Is it not perfectly reasonable to ask the Minister to make a statement before the House rises at the end of July?
    Sir E. Boyle: I was prepared to answer in reply to supplementary questions that this Report was submitted to Ministers at the beginning of April. On all accounts, this is a difficult problem in which the issues are well-balanced. The Government obviously want to base their decision on all the relevant considerations, but my right hon. and learned Friend would hope that it would be possible to announce a decision before the Summer Recess.
    Mr. Willey: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has just said, promising a decision before the Summer Recess. Will he also promise that the House will have an opportunity to discuss the matter before the House rises?
    Sir E. Boyle: I was careful to say on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend that I would hope that it would be possible. It is our hope and intention if at all possible to announce the decision before the Summer Recess, but a debate is clearly a matter for the usual channels and the Leader of the House.
    Mr. J. H. Osborn: Would my right hon. Friend take into consideration the fact that an experiment to prove or disprove various theories would be a very great advantage in the future? Practice is much better than theory.
    Sir E. Boyle: I see my hon. Friend's point. There is, frankly, a good deal
    1530
    of money at stake here. This is a major decision one way or the other. I can say that my right hon. and learned Friend will fully bear in mind the concern of both sides of the House that the House should have an opportunity of considering this matter once again before we rise.
    Mr. Willey: The right hon. Gentleman has expressed a hope. Would he give an undertaking that the Government will make a statement before the House rises?
    Sir E. Boyle: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will consider it. I would prefer not to go further this afternoon. I hope I have made it plain that my right hon. and learned Friend understands the importance the House attaches to this.

    Awards to Students (Regulations)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what improvements in vacation grants for students are proposed for the current year.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends, to publish the revised university and other awards regulations.
    Sir E. Boyle: I hope to lay before the Summer Recess regulations amending in certain respects the existing provisions for awards to students as from 1st September, 1964.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentle-aware that in April, 1963, when I raised the case of Mr. Dinnis of Blackburn in the House, who was unable to obtain any grant for his wife and children, I was promised that there would be an early review? Is the right hon Gentleman aware that it is very difficult for people like Mr. Dinnis to plan their academic future, because they cannot face another academic year on £6 10s. a week? Can we have an earlier statement of the outcome of the review?
    Sir E. Boyle: I can tell the hon. Lady, and also the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White), that certain issues in relation to dependency have been identified in the course of this review and the solution to these is being

    1531
    pursued independently of these Regulations. I am well aware of the cases that cause most concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    Mrs. White: May I be clear about what the Minister's answer meant? Does he mean that for this coming vacation there will be additional vacation grants, as opposed to the dependants' allowances which are the subject of the Question of my hon Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)? If these Regulations are to be enforced from 1st September, do they run for the coming vacation?
    Sir E. Boyle: I do not want to anticipate the results of the review, but I think I could say, without indiscretion, that certain matters relating to vacation grants have been under consideration and any changes made as a result of the review will affect the next academic year.
    Mrs. White: That is not the question. My question was about the coming vacation, because, if the grants are not available for this coming vacation, students will have to make arrangements to take paid work, on which the Association of University Teachers and the National Union of Students have made most emphatic representations to the right hon Gentleman's Department. This applies to this year, not what happens in the next academic year.
    Sir E. Boyle: I am in a position to say something about this, but I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive me if this afternoon I answer by saying that it is proposed that any change in the provisions should take effect from 1st September.

    School Building Programme, Staffordshire
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, in view of the fact that in Staffordshire 42 per cent. of the senior classes and 20 per cent. of the junior classes are oversized, if he will reconsider the local authority's proposals for a larger school building Programme in the light of the need to attract more teachers.
    Mr. Hogg: No, Sir. The Staffordshire authority's quota of teachers and their school building programme for the two
    1532
    and a half years 1965 to 1968 represent a fair share of the resources available for England and Wales as a whole.
    Mr. Swingler: Has the Secretary of State taken into account the factor of negligence and backwardness in the past? Is it not a very serious matter that there is in Staffordshire such a high proportion of over-sized secondary classes? Is he aware that one of the main problems in attracting more teachers to Staffordshire is the fact that there are so many old buildings and so much obsolete equipment? Therefore, would he consider Staffordshire's proposals in the light of these facts?
    Mr. Hogg: I am always prepared to consider proposals where they are not fully committed, but the proportion of over-sized senior classes in Staffordshire in 1963 was less than in England and Wales as a whole—42·3 per cent. against 43·6 per cent.
    Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in one part of the area to which my hon. Friend is referring, as a result of overspill the local population has doubled, and there is no evidence to suggest that his Department is fully informed, for instance, of the case of private development building where the number of children just does not seem to be known?
    Mr. Hogg: My reply referred to Staffordshire as a whole. If the hon. Gentleman puts material before me which we have not yet got, it will be considered.

    Schools, Staffordshire (Replacement)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will publish in HANSARD a nominal roll of the 114 schools in condemned or obsolete buildings which remain for replacement in Staffordshire, together with a list of the dates on which each building was first condemned as unsuitable.
    Mr. Hogg: No, Sir. The schools to be replaced fall short of the statutory building regulations but are not condemned or obsolete in any technical sense.
    Mr. Swingler: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman care to explain

    1533
    exactly what that means, in the light of the Answer I was given a short time ago? Is it not a fact that there are over 100 schools in Staffordshire which are condemned in this way? The rate of replacement is very small and very slow indeed. Would he care to look at this matter again?
    Mr. Hogg: If the hon. Gentleman asks me, of course, I will look at it again. I have been at great pains to discover whether his condemnation that buildings are of an obsolete character was a correct description of these schools. I have been informed that it is not.

    Oceanography
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the total amount spent annually on all branches of oceanography in the United Kingdom.
    Sir E. Boyle: The total expenditure in the United Kingdom in 1964–65 on all branches of oceanography and marine biology is estimated to be about £2·17 million.
    Mr. Digby: How does this compare with the expenditure of other maritime nations? In view of the undoubtedly increased importance of oceanography from the commercial point of view, as well as from the defence point of view, would my right hon. Friend re-examine this figure and see whether there is not a case for augmenting it?
    Sir E. Boyle: I will certainly consider the question of what is spent by other countries. This figure excludes major capital items and also excludes the costs of university departments met from University Grants Committee funds. I will gladly see if I can give my hon. Friend further information.

    Teachers, West Riding
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many teachers were employed in maintained primary and secondary schools in the West Riding of Yorkshire in 1951; and how many are now employed.
    Mr. Hogg: The numbers in the West Riding local education authority area were 8,300 in January, 1951, and 10,800
    1534
    in January, 1963. The figures for 1964 are not yet available.
    Sir L. Ropner: Are the figures which my right hon. and learned Friend has given for the West Riding of Yorkshire more or less favourable than the general level throughout the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Hogg: I fear that I could not answer that without notice.
    Mr. Duffy: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there was an acute shortage of teachers in the West Riding of Yorkshire in 1963, the figures being 500 for primary schools and 1,500 for secondary schools? What is he doing about this?
    Mr. Hogg: I think that the teacher training and supply position is well known. What we are doing is to treble the output of teacher training colleges between 1957 and 1970. The output has already been doubled.
    Mr. Wade: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give the breakdown in the figures he gave between men and women?
    Mr. Hogg: No, not without notice.

    Primary and Secondary Schools, West Riding
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many maintained primary and secondary schools have been completed in the West Riding of Yorkshire since 1951; and how many have been modernised.
    Mr. Hogg: One hundred new primary schools; and 42 new secondary schools have been completed, including first instalments. Two primary and 6 secondary schools; have been remodelled, and major extensions and adaptation work have also been carried out at 5 other primary and 32 secondary schools.
    Sir L. Ropner: I congratulate the Government on the progress which has been made during the last few years. Can my right hon. and learned Friend give me the assurance that still further progress will be made during the next period of office of the Conservative Party?
    Mr. Hogg: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Duffy: Is the Secretary of State aware that in the Colne Valley constituency of the West Riding of Yorkshire more than three-quarters of the primary schools were built in the nineteenth century, more than one-half of them are dependent on outside lavatories, and more than one-third of them are without a staff room? Three such primary schools in this West Riding constituency are dependent on outside chemical closets. Does the Secretary of State think that he is entitled to be complacent?
    Mr. Hogg: The West Riding of Yorkshire has a building programme of £3·8 million for 1965–66 and about £3·7 million for 1966–67.

    Secondary Education, Thornaby
    Dr. Brayasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what facilities he proposes to provide for the reorganisation of secondary education in Thornaby-on-Tees in the North Riding of Yorkshire, in view of the reorganisation proposed for the secondary schools in Middlesbrough used by Thornaby children.
    Mr. Chataway: I understand that the Middlesbrough local education authority intends to consult the North Riding local education authority about its secondary reorganisation proposals in so far as they affect Thornaby children.
    Dr. Bray: Is the Under-Secretary aware that this well illustrates the difficulties into which both local authorities and the public are plunged because of the confusion in the mind of the Government about comprehensive secondary education? Is he aware that where the education provisions of neighbouring local authorities overlap and progress is made at a different rate, very great hardship and injustice is imposed on a large number of parents? Is he not going to tell the House of any Government policy to deal with these problems, wherever they occur?
    Mr. Chataway: I would be prepared to concede that some of the problems the hon. Member has in mind might be avoided if the Government were to impose comprehensive secondary schools on every local education authority, but
    1536
    I understand that that would give rise to far more serious problems.
    Mr. Willey: In view of the debate we had last night, will the Government consider publishing a White Paper on the reorganisation of secondary education?
    Mr. Chataway: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will consider that suggestion.

    Universities (Expansion)
    Dr. Brayasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science by how much the expansion plans accepted by existing universities have exceeded the estimates made by the Robbins Committee; how much of this expansion has been met by agreement temporarily to overload existing staff and buildings; and how many student places are to be provided by new facilities approved since the publication of the Robbins Report.
    Sir E. Boyle: The additional capital and recurrent provision for the universities announced by my right hon. Friend on 5th February and 14th May and estimated at a total of about £75 million was determined in the light of recommendations 170 to 173 of the Robbins Report relating to the short-term emergency. The Government recognise, as the Report itself states, that the achievement of the new objectives will mean improvisation and pressure, but it is not possible to quantify this in relation to this additional expenditure.
    Dr. Bray: Cannot the Minister give the House any figures at all in view of the widespread impression that exists in the universities that they have squeezed their accommodation and staff rather harder than the Robbins Committee expected in order to be able to cope with the bulge? Is he aware that they are feeling that the Government are not meeting this by a comparably generous and vigorous effort to meet the demand for higher education?
    Sir E. Boyle: As the hon. Member will no doubt recall, the extra capital allocation to the universities as a result of recommendations 170 to 173 was £36 million, which was larger than the biggest single normal annual allocation to the universities. I suggest that, really and

    1537
    truly, the Government have met the demand of the increased programme and have fulfilled the pledges and promises set out in last autumn's White Paper.
    Mr. Peter Emery: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether, in effect, the Government are immediately approving all the recommendations made by the University Grants Committee as soon as applications for expansion are lodged by universities? Is it the position that applications from universities for expansion are in certain cases holding up some of this expansion, and not the Government's decision on the recommendations?
    Sir E. Boyle: The distribution of the additional grants authorised by the Government between individual universities is, as my hon. Friend will be aware, the responsibility of the University Grants Committee, but all the announcements about the extra capital and recurrent grants to be made available to enable the Robbins 1967–68 target to be fulfilled have now been made.
    Mr. Crossman: Is it not a fact that what has been requested by the universities in terms of both capital and recurrent sums to pay for the Robbins expansion has by no means been conceded by the Government?
    Sir E. Boyle: The answer is that the University Grants Committee asked the universities how far they would be prepared to contribute towards the new objectives. The offers made totalled considerably larger numbers than Lord Robbins suggested in his Report. I have been asked in the Question to quantify the element of overcrowding, which it is not possible for me to do. I therefore pointed out that the extra capital sum allocated was very considerable and, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, this is true of extra capital and recurrent amounts as well.
    Mr. Crossman: I asked whether the amounts requested by the universities to fulfil their obligations under the expansion plan were greater than what the right hon. Gentleman has conceded.
    Sir E. Boyle: The offers of the universities added up to considerably greater numbers than Lord Robbins proposed. I have said that the Government are
    1538
    making sufficient special capital and recurrent sums available to enable the Robbins target to be fulfilled, and to enable the Government promises made last autumn to be implemented.

    C.A.T.s and Technical Colleges (Industrial Liaison Centres)
    Mr. G. Johnson Smithasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made to implement the plan he announced recently for setting up industrial liaison centres in colleges of advanced technology and technical colleges.
    Sir E. Boyle: Industrial liaison officers have now been appointed in four colleges: these are in addition to the five appointments previously made at Scottish colleges. The scheme has been accepted at nine other colleges and recruitment is proceeding there. Preliminary negotiations are in progress with nine further colleges.
    Mr. Johnson Smith: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on the progress which has been made, and which I am sure will be greeted favourably outside the House, may I ask on the question of recruitment, to what extent these centres have been able to attract people from industry as visiting professors?
    Sir E. Boyle: Perhaps my hon. Friend would put down a Question on that specific issue, but to the best of my knowledge recruitment is going well.

  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' MEETING
  Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister if he will propose to other Commonwealth Prime Ministers the offer of a joint Commonwealth military contribution to a United Nations police force.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): It is for the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' meeting to decide collectively what subjects are discussed. This and kindred matters can certainly be discussed if Prime Ministers so wish. Much depends on the nature of any particular proposal. Some Commonwealth countries, like ourselves, take part in United Nations collective opera-

  1539
  tions. It would be for their Governments to say whether "earmarking" is practical.
  Mr. Healey: Yes, but while it is for the Commonwealth Prime Ministers collectively to decide their agenda, surely every Commonwealth Government is free to make any proposals it thinks suitable? Indeed, the Tunku of Malaya has already made certain proposals and says that he proposes to present them at the conference. In view of the fact that the Commonwealth Brigade already exists and that the Prime Minister has said that he wishes for other collective Commonwealth initiatives, and since at least three Commonwealth countries have made contributions to United Nations forces, will not the Prime Minister take the initiative here for a change?
  The Prime Minister: I should like to consider this matter a little further with my Commonwealth colleagues. The Commonwealth Brigade, for instance, is entirely occupied in Malaysia, occupied in connection with a treaty obligation. I have no doubt that the Commonwealth countries, all of them, would be willing to contribute if they could to United Nations operations. The question is whether a Commonwealth force earmarked for certain purposes should be so allocated; and this is a very different and much more complex question.
  Mr. H. Wilson: If it is not too far out of order, Mr. Speaker, might I, in a brief interval between more polemic exchanges, express to the right hon. Gentleman our best wishes, in a strictly non-electoral sense, for many happy returns?
  Even more in order, might I ask him a question arising out of my hon. Friend's supplementary question? Is the Prime Minister aware that—I admit, following strict precedent—he has been fairly uncommunicative with the House about the conference, as his predecessors have been; but since there has been obviously some fairly full briefing of certain newspapers about what is likely to come up and even the days on which those subjects are likely to be discussed, and since the Prime Minister himself was very communicative in his broadcast the other evening about the
  1540
  conference, would he give a little further thought to seeing how and in what way, without destroying the secrecy of the conference, he can be more communicative with the House?
  The Prime Minister: I am trying to be quite communicative with the House, but we must meet before we decide what is finally on our agenda. Certain subjects will be discussed—world and economic affairs and, no doubt, we shall discuss disarmament and related matters such as the right hon. Gentleman raises—but I cannot say, before I meet them, whether the Prime Ministers will want to discuss this particular proposal.
  I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his congratulations on my birthday and I assure him that I will try to stay here as long as I can.

  DAY RELEASE
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if he will take steps to coordinate the activities of the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Labour to ensure that they consider what additional statistical information is needed in order to assist in planning the development of day release.
  The Prime Minister: The Department of Education and Science, in consultation with the Ministry of Labour, is considering what additional statistical information is needed in planning the development of day release. No special action on my part is required.
  Mr. Dalyell: Why is not special action required? Why do not the Government treat the Henniker Heaton proposals on day release with the same alacrity as Robbins?
  The Prime Minister: No special action is required on my behalf, because action is already being taken by my right hon. Friend. That is the answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. The answer to the second part is that we have agreed and accepted the proposal that 250,000 extra persons should be released for day release classes, and that is what was recommended by the Henniker Heaton Report.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: Can the Prime Minister say what liaison exists between

  1541
  the Ministry of Labour's Manpower Research Unit and the Statistical Department of the Ministry of Education?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman should put that question down to my right hon. Friend.

  CYPRUS MILITARY OPERATIONS
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint an official historian to write the history of the military operations in Cyprus during the emergency prior to the Zurich Agreement.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Hughes: If the Prime Minister is reluctant to have an official history of operations in Cyprus because it would be such a record of colossal Tory Government blunders, as we have spent over £100 million could we not have a balance sheet, if anything can be found on the profit side at all?
  The Prime Minister: It is not the purpose of an official history, as I understand it, to produce a balance sheet. Official histories are accounts of military operations, giving the facts of those military operations. I sent the hon. Member, for his edification, a list of the official histories of the First and Second World Wars, from which he will see that they deal with military facts and campaigns. That is not, I think, what the hon. Gentleman has put down.
  Sir Richard Glyn: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the military operations in Cyprus were between E.O.K.A., with the declared attention of achieving Enosis, which it failed to achieve, and British forces, whose declared objective was to retain the essential bases, which they did achieve? In those circumstances, would my right hon. Friend not hesitate to appoint an official historian as soon as it is convenient?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that it matters what the result of the military campaign was—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] What was asked was that there should be an official history, and I do not think that this is necessary.
  Mr. Hughes: Will the Prime Minister stop quibbling? Were there not very extensive military operations in Cyprus for a number of years?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. But the question is whether an official history of this ought to be written now, and I think not.
  Mr. Kershaw: If an official history is written now, will my right hon. Friend see that the advice of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition that heavy tanks should be employed against Cyprus citizens is included in it?

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA
  Mr. Brockwayasked the Prime Minister what reply he has sent to the letter of 25th June from the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia about the future of Southern Rhodesia.
  The Prime Minister: No reply has yet been sent. The contents of such exchanges are, of course, confidential.
  Mr. Brockway: While the House will appreciate the confidential character of this exchange, can the Prime Minister say whether it has now been made quite clear to the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia how serious would be the effects of any unilateral declaration of the independence of that territory? Surely, that should be made clear.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. This has been made absolutely clear, but I hope that such an event will not take place.
  Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is anxiety, perhaps ill-founded, lest the full and inevitable consequences of such an act are not known to the inhabitants of Southern Rhodesia? Will my right hon. Friend, in his own good time, see that the position is made crystal clear?
  The Prime Minister: I would consider this. The question I was asked, and the question to which I replied, was whether the Government understood the serious consequences, and my answer is, "Yes."
  Mr. Stonehouse: When the Prime Minister writes to Mr. Ian Smith, will he tell him that he agrees with Sir Robert Tredgold, former Federal Chief Justice,

  1543
  who yesterday said that a unilateral declaration of independence would amount to treason? Would he also take up with Mr. Ian Smith his unconstitutional action in consulting Mr. Verwoerd, the Prime Minister of South Africa, bearing in mind that Southern Rhodesia, as a non-sovereign State, has no responsibility for external relations of that description?
  The Prime Minister: We have made it clear that a unilateral declaration of independence would be an unconstitutional act. Whether Mr. Smith meets Dr. Verwoerd or not is no concern of mine,

  MALAYSIA
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether, following recent Indonesian aggression against Malaysia, he will propose to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers a policy of Commonwealth support for Malaysia in resistance to such aggression in accordance with the United Nations Charter.
  The Prime Minister: All Commonwealth Governments recognise Malaysia, and several have given her material support in her effort to maintain her integrity and independence.
  Mr. Henderson: In view of the statement made yesterday by the Soviet Deputy Prime Minister that the Soviet Government intend to supply arms to Indonesia, will the Prime Minister make it clear that Her Majesty's Government, while being ready to co-operate with any other Government in securing a peaceful settlement of the Indonesian-Malaysian problem, intend to stand firm behind Malaysia in response to any aggression that takes place?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I do not think that I could make it clearer that this is the decision of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Healey: Can the Prime Minister say whether he has yet consulted the Prime Minister of Malaysia with a view to raising Indonesian aggression at the United Nations as a threat to peace?
  The Prime Minister: We are in continuous consultation with the Prime Minister of Malaysia. Tunku Abdul Rahman will be here in a few days, and no doubt we shall have a discussion of these matters.

  TURKISH PRIME MINISTER (CONVERSATIONS)
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister what decision was reached between himself and the Turkish Prime Minister in the recent conversations on the situation in Cyprus.
  The Prime Minister: As the joint communiqué made clear, Monsieur Inonu and I agreed on the urgent necessity for the attainment of a lasting solution to the problems of Cyprus by negotiation and agreement.
  Mr. Shinwell: But will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the situation in Cyprus is giving more concern and anxiety now than hitherto? Has he taken notice—no doubt he has—of the references made by both sides to General de Gaulle and President Johnson, both of whom have committed themselves to express concern at the situation in Cyprus? Would not the Prime Minister make the suggestion direct to the Secretary-General of the United Nations that countries that have expressed concern might go a bit further and provide some contingents for the United Nations forces in Cyprus in order to expedite a possible solution of the problem there?
  The Prime Minister: We should welcome forces from other countries to help in this matter.
  Mr. Shinwell: But would not the right hon. Gentleman agree to make some representations, through the Secretary-General, to those who have expressed their concern, in order to ensure that we are supported in Cyprus?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. But it is for the Secretary-General of the United Nations to recruit the United Nations force, not me.
  Sir J. Eden: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the Turkish element has exercised great restraint under considerable provocation in Cyprus? In those circumstances, was he able to assure the Prime Minister of Turkey that the Turkish case would certainly not be allowed to go by default?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think that we have certainly taken every possible step that we can to acquaint the

  1545
  Secretary-General of the United Nations with the seriousness of the situation, and the importance of not allowing, under cover of the United Nations operations, one community in the island to do damage to the other.
  Mr. Bottomley: Is the Prime Minister aware that it is reported that, as a result of the talks he has had with the Turkish Prime Minister, a suggestion has been made that the Turks in Cyprus should be transferred to another Greek island—
  Mr. Buck: Another Greek island?
  Mr. Bottomley:—and can the right hon. Gentleman deny this?
  The Prime Minister: I do not know where this report came from. Further, when the right hon. Gentleman talks about another Greek island, I do not think this is quite an accurate description. What is to happen now, as I understand it, is that the mediator hopes to bring the representatives from Turkey and the representatives from Greece together in Geneva, and we shall not arrive at a solution of this problem unless Greece and Turkey agree on it, and that we must try to achieve.
  Mr. Grimond: The Prime Minister, in his last answer but one, said that it was important not to allow the situation to be changed to the detriment of one part of the Cyprus people under cover of the present situation. Has the right hon. Gentleman any information to give to the House about allegations of secret troop movements in Cyprus?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that I have any information to give on that. All I can say is that we have made it clear to the Secretary-General of the United Nations that we think that it is the duty of the United Nations force to prevent one community from taking action that would act to the detriment of the other.
  Mr. Bottomley: In order to clear the matter up, when I said "another Greek island" I meant to say "Thrace or another Greek island".

  DETECTIVE-SERGEANT CHALLENOR (CASES)
  The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
  Mr. DRIBERG: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the statement given in evidence by the Principal Medical Officer of Brixton Prison, that Detective-Sergeant H. Challenor is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and has been mentally abnormal for some considerable time, he proposes to reopen cases in which convictions were secured wholly or partly on evidence given by this officer.
  Mrs. BUTLER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now hold a full public inquiry into all the cases with which Detective-Sergeant Challenor has been concerned in the past eighteen months; and if he will now release all the men who were convicted in these cases and who are still serving prison sentences.
  Mr. PAGET: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will move to appoint a Select Committee to investigate the events leading up to, and resulting from, Detective-Sergeant Challenor's insanity.
  Miss BACON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of public anxiety, and in view of the delay in his Department in investigating all aspects of the case of Detective-Sergeant Challenor, he will now move to set up a select committee of inquiry.
  Mrs. JOYCE BUTLER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what investigation he is making into evidence that Detective-Sergeant Harold Challenor took bribes in the course of his duty; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. GRIMOND: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will move to appoint a select committee to inquire into the allegations arising from the case of Detective-Sergeant Challenor.
  Mr. DRIBERG: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what date he first instituted investigations into the whole background of

  1547
  the cases with which Detective-Sergeant Challenor was concerned; on what date doubts of this officer's mental stability were first reported by his colleagues; and if he will make a statement detailing the course of the inquiries that have been held so far and the further action that he intends to take.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Brooke): I will, with permission, now answer Questions Nos. 54, 63, 65, 66, 70, 72 and 74 together.
  Detective-Sergeant Challenor is a man with a record of great bravery during the war, who, by excessive devotion to duty and overwork in the police service, appears to have precipitated a mental breakdown. He was pronounced medically unfit for duty on 6th September, 1963, and seven weeks later was certified insane.
  I have been investigating cases in which he is known, or is alleged, to have been concerned since the autumn of 1962. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT further details about these cases and the reasons for my conclusions. I find no grounds for taking any action in the cases of Andreas Loucaides and Wallace Gold.
  I propose to exercise my powers to refer to the Court of Criminal Appeal the cases of Ricardo Pedrini, John Ford, Alan John Cheeseman, Joseph Oliva and James Thomas Fraser.
  I have decided to recommend the grant of a free pardon to Lionel King, David Silver, John Ryall, Ronald Alfred Ryall and Colin Derwin.
  I pass now from these individual cases to the central problem of the behaviour of Detective-Sergeant Challenor.
  I think that there are two matters on which there is public anxiety: first, as to the circumstances in which it was possible for him to continue on duty at a time when he appears to have been growing mentally affected by overwork; second, as to whether there is evidence of criminal practice such as corruption that might give rise to further criminal proceedings.
  I have decided to set up a statutory inquiry, under Section 32 of the Police Act 1964, with authority to compel the attendance of witnesses and to take evi-
  1548
  dence on oath, to inquire into the first of these matters.
  As regards the second, there has already been a very full investigation and report by a senior officer of the Metropolitan Police, and the Director of Public Prosecutions has decided that the report provides no ground for further action on his part, apart from the cases which have recently been prosecuted.
  There are now fresh allegations of corruption which require immediate investigation. I have decided that the right course is to appoint a senior police officer unconnected with the Metropolitan Police to inquire into these further allegations, to review the report which has already been prepared, to make such further inquiry as seems to him necessary, and to prepare his own report as quickly as possible.
  The Commissioner, at my request, has invited Mr. Norman Goodchild, the Chief Constable of Wolverhampton, to do this. If this report discloses any ground for the consideration of criminal proceedings, it will be submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
  I myself will be able to take it into account in determining the terms of reference for the inquiry which I intend to set up under the Police Act, because that inquiry cannot in any even be launched until the 1st August when the requisite statutory powers, which I do not at present possess, become available to me.
  Mr. Driberg: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that none of us underestimates the personal tragedy of this man or the other personal tragedies of various kinds that are associated with this business, including that of men who have been wrongly imprisoned—the pardon for whom we gratefully welcome—and the tragedy of the young policemen who were serving under Detective-Sergeant Challenor and are now in prison? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether and why he has fixed on a point in time—perhaps in the autumn of 1962, in view of his statement—before which he is certain that this officer was completely sane?
  Mr. Brooke: I am obliged to the hon. Member for what he has said. I have no reason whatever to believe that there

  1549
  was anything wrong with the state of mind of Detective-Sergeant Challenor before the date, but, of course, I am ready to examine any argument or evidence that is put before me. Obviously one must go back to a certain date and it seemed to me that the autumn of 1962 was the appropriate date to take.
  Mrs. Butler: I thank the Home Secretary for the announcement which he has just made and the action which he has taken, but is not it now clear that if he had agreed to a full public inquiry when it was first demanded in the House, last autumn, a great deal of trouble to everyone concerned, and of suffering to some, would have been avoided? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the procedure which he is now recommending will really answer the disquieting questions which have been raised on this sorry affair, will do justice to the police and to everyone else concerned, and will help to restore good relationships between the police and the public unless the public and the Press can be admitted to the proceedings and the proceedings are fully reported?
  Mr. Brooke: I think that the hon. Lady will find when she has time to examine my statement in detail that it will in full meet all public anxiety.
  As to the inquiry, when I decide its terms of reference I shall have to consider whether it should sit in public, but at present I should like as much of it to be in public as possible. The House, of course, will appreciate that if evidence has to be given about aspects of operational police working against criminals, that is not the sort of evidence that should be given in public because it might put ideas into people's heads.
  As for the hon. Lady's suggestion that all this could have been settled if we had had a public inquiry some months ago, I am sure that she appreciates that one cannot have a public inquiry and then have criminal proceedings, because the criminal proceedings would inevitably be prejudiced by the outcome of the inquiry which had been held in public. My concern throughout has been to ensure that where criminal offences appear to have been committed the Director of Public Prosecutions should have the opportunity to consider whether a prosecution should lie, and to separate those matters from
  1550
  the other matters which I have said today I think now should be the subject of a public inquiry.
  Mr. Paget: In other words, the fact that innocent men have been held in prison is a minor matter compared with consideration of the convenience of prosecutions, Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that nine months ago, in September, he found that a considerable section of the prison population for which he is responsible were there because of the enterprise and the evidence of a man who had turned out to be a dangerous lunatic? Is he aware that he has kept a number of these men, whose innocence he now recognises by recommending a free pardon, in prison for nine months since then? Is he also aware that in this matter he who refused a public inquiry is now the principal accused and that it is quite outrageous that he should attempt to appoint a public inquiry when nothing can meet this save a Select Committee of the House, and does he refuse to appoint one?
  Mr. Brooke: The hon. and learned Member's insinuations are quite disgraceful. There are these five men whose cases I propose to refer to the Court of Criminal Appeal. They were convicted on other evidence apart from that of Detective-Sergeant Challenor and I am sure that the House agrees that it is a court, the Court of Criminal Appeal, that should consider the situation now.
  Miss Bacon: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we recognise the personal tragedy of Detective-Sergeant Challenor and that we are pleased that the right hon. Gentleman is to refer this case to a committee of inquiry and that this is to be done under the new Police Act, which means that it will be possible to call witnesses on oath?
  Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that we on this side of the House, as well as many people in the country, think that there has been a great deal of delay and that those men who are in prison at present and are being released as from today have been in prison for nine months longer than they should have been if the right hon. Gentleman had taken action earlier?
  On the question of corruption, is there any other way in which the right hon.

  1551
  Gentleman could have this matter looked at instead of by means of an investigation by a police officer?
  Mr. Brooke: On the last point, it is surely quite clear that any matters that may give rise to criminal proceedings should be investigated in the first instance by the police and not by anybody else.
  There has been no delay whatever. The fact that there was cause for concern about the handling of cases by Detective-Sergeant Challenor was first brought to the notice of my Department in September. The first written report that I received was on 9th October. I announced on 24th October that I had asked the Commissioner of Police for a report on all of what are known as the "half-brick" cases. That report was sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions on 15th January and certain criminal proceedings followed, which have just recently been concluded.
  The senior officer conducting the investigations then continued with his investigations of the other matters and produced a report, extending to about 1,200 foolscap pages, which was sent to the Director on 19th May. There has been no delay whatever.
  Mr. Grimond: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that suggestions were made that the cases of the five men which he is now referring to the Court of Criminal Appeal should have been so referred two or three months ago? Can he assure the House that these cases will be heard with the utmost expedition? Can he say when they may be heard and disposed of?
  Mr. Brooke: That is a matter for the Court of Criminal Appeal, but I am sure that it will wish to proceed as rapidly as possible. I do not see how it would have been possible for me to refer those cases to the Court of Criminal Appeal while the proceedings with regard to the "half-brick" cases were still in progress.
  Mr. Curran: Does my right hon. Friend propose to pay compensation to the people who have been given a free pardon?
  Mr. Brooke: Those who have been fined will certainly, of course, be able to claim reimbursement. As regards those who have suffered imprisonment, in accordance with normal practice when a free pardon is granted I shall be pre-
  1552
  pared to consider any claim which these men may make for ex-gratia payments.
  Mr. MacDermot: Can the right hon. Gentleman say on what principle he has distinguished between those cases in which he has granted a free pardon and those cases which he has referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal?
  Mr. Brooke: I did not think that my statement should be too long and, therefore, I have set out all that detail in a further statement which will be published in HANSARD. Of course, I shall be open to questions on these matters.
  Mr. Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when an occurrence of this kind takes place which causes considerable disturbance to public opinion and to the Metropolitan Police, it would be more satisfactory if, instead of referring the matter to Mr. Goodchild, for whom one has the greatest respect, it were referred to an independent person outside the police?
  Mr. Brooke: No, Sir. We discussed this point at length during the proceedings on the Police Bill. In these cases outstandingly where an investigation may give rise to criminal proceedings, it is essential for the police, and nobody else, to carry out that investigation.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Harold Wilson. Business question.
  Mr. Lubbock: On a point of order—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
  Mr. Speaker: If there is a point of order, I want to hear what it is.
  Mr. Lubbock: I have been trying to see the Home Secretary about these five cases since March of this year, and I should like an opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman a question, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I am very sorry, but we have had quite a number of questions, including one from the Leader of the hon. Gentleman's party. I think that we ought now to move on.
  Following are the details of the cases:
  1. Andreas Loucaides was convicted at the County of London Sessions on 25th September, 1963, of attempted housebreaking and possessing housebreaking implements by night, and was sentenced to concurrent terms of eighteen months' imprisonment. Loucaides has alleged

  1553
  that Challenor was present at his arrest and left a jemmy to be planted: that, of the other police officers involved, one was concerned in the Pedrini case and another was one of those recently convicted: and that he has known Challenor since he met him when serving in Egypt during the war in the military police. In fact, neither Challenor nor either of the two constables mentioned nor any officer of his Division was concerned with Loucaides' arrest. One of the constables named by Loucaides was at that time on leave, and the other off duty with an injured knee. Challenor was never in the military police nor did he serve in Egypt. I can find no grounds for any action in this case.
  2. Wallace Gold, at the County of London Sessions on 9th January 1963, was sentenced to nine months' imprisonment after pleading guilty to receiving 347 cigarette and pipe lighters. He has now alleged that Challenor, who was the arresting officer, planted one cigarette lighter when searching Gold's premises. Gold made no such complaint at the time, and it would appear that the evidence against him was in any event clear. I find no grounds for any action in his case.
  3. Riccardo Pedrini, John Ford, Alan John Cheeseman and Joseph Oliva were convicted at the Central Criminal Court on 18th December, 1962, of various charges including conspiracy, possessing (in the cases of Pedrini, Cheeseman and Oliva) offensive weapons and (in the cases of Pedrini, Ford and Cheeseman) demanding money with menaces. Against these men there was other evidence in addition to that of Challenor. Pedrini was sentenced to seven years' imprisonment in all, Ford and Oliva to five years, and Cheeseman to three years. James Thomas Fraser was convicted together with them of possessing an offensive weapon and has now served his sentence of 15 months' imprisonment. I have decided that the right course is to exercise my powers under Section 19(a) of the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907 and to refer all these five cases to the Court of Criminal Appeal.
  4. Lionel King was convicted at the County of London Sessions on 20th June, 1963, of charges connected with the possession of detonators, and was sentenced to concurrent terms of two years' imprisonment The case against King, who has throughout contended that the detonators were planted on him, was based mainly on evidence by Challenor. In all the circumstances, I have decided to recommend the grant of a free pardon to King, and have authorised his immediate release from prison. I have also recommended the grant of a free pardon to David Silver, who was convicted together with King, but is no longer in custody.
  5. John Ryall, Ronald Ryall and Colin Derwin stand convicted of charges of possessing an offensive weapon—a piece of brick—which were heard at Marlborough Street Magistrates' Court on 8th August, 1963. John Ryall and Ronald David Ryall were fined £5 each; Colin Derwin was conditionally discharged and ordered to pay £5 costs. The evidence against these men was given by the constables who have since been convicted of conspiracy to fabricate evidence. In all three cases I have decided to recommend the grant
  1554
  of a free pardon, which will entail the remission of the fines and the repayment of the costs.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. H. Wilson: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 6TH JULY—Debate on a Motion to approve the White Paper on Monopolies, Mergers and Restrictive Practices (Command No. 2299).
Remaining stages of the Fishery Limits Bill.
TUESDAY, 7TH JULY—Second Reading of the Zambia Independence Bill.
Remaining stages of the Obscene Publications Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 8TH JULY—Supply [22nd Allotted day]: Committee.
Debate on Transport.
Motions on the Police Pensions Regulations and the Street Sunday Cinematograph Order.
THURSDAY, 9TH JULY—Second Reading of the Spray Irrigation (Scotland) Bill [Lords], and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Motions on the Local Government Burton upon Trent, and the Roads and Bridges (Scotland) Orders.
At seven o'clock, opposed Private Business.
FRIDAY, 10TH JULY—Second Reading of the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Bill [Lords].
Remaining stages of the Zambia Independence Bill.
Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Housing Bill.
Motion on the Furniture Industry Development Council (Amendment No. 2) Order.
MONDAY, 13TH JULY—The proposed business will be: debate on Accommodation.
Mr. H. Wilson: On Thursday's business, the Motion on the Local Government Burton upon Trent Order, on the

1555
merits of which, obviously, one does not express any opinion at this stage, is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of suggestions that this may well be sub judice in view of an action in the High Court challenging the powers of the Minister in this respect? Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman look at that point carefully and consider whether we ought to be debating it at all?
Secondly, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether he is prepared to find Government time next week for the consideration of the Bill, most unfortunately wrecked last week by hon. Members opposite, which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) to increase widows' 10s. pensions and to abolish the earnings rule for widows? Is this not one of the most important pieces of legislation that Parliament should be passing at this time?
Mr. Lloyd: In reply to the right hon. Gentleman's first question, I was aware of the point. I do not think that it is a matter of fact for me to decide, but account has been taken of it. It is a matter which can be argued at the time but it is not for me to decide this matter. It is a matter for whoever is the occupant of the Chair at the time.
The right hon. Gentleman's second question involves certain policy matters, but, so far as Government time next week is concerned, the answer is, "No".
Sir Knox Cunningham: Is my right hon. and learned Friend now able to say when the debate on Northern Ireland will be held?
Mr. Lloyd: I hope early in the week beginning 13th July.
Mr. Mitchison: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Burton upon Trent Order may be concerned with a document which the court will declare invalid because there has not been sufficient compliance with the provision for a statutory inquiry beforehand? Do the Government think it right to bring before the House for discussion a document the validity of which as an Order is at present being
1556
challenged and falls to be decided upon by the court?
Mr. Lloyd: I quite agree that this is an important matter. It has, of course, certain implications and it can be discussed at the time, but I repeat that I do not think that it is for me to pronounce on this. If one possibility is that one might hold up an Order coming into operation simply by issuing a writ, that would have certain implications for the Executive.
Mr. Mitchison: But is not the practical difficulty that the Government must consider whether it is proper, in the light of relations between the House and the judiciary, to bring forward an Order to be given effect at the moment when the whole question is before the court? Of course, the matter may be raised again on a point of order when the Motion comes before us, but the Government ought first to consider their own duty to the House.
Mr. Lloyd: My own view is that the time for this to be further discussed is when the Order comes before the House.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Has my right hon. and learned Friend studied the Motion on the Order Paper, signed by a great many right hon. and hon. Members on this side, dealing with the grave news that this country has lost orders from the Spanish Government? Work on these orders might well have continued for a great many years. The manufacture of turbines and electronic equipment could have been of great help to the development districts and to tens of thousands of British people who are concerned about their prospects of employment.
[That this House recognising the vital importance of exports to our economy and to the maintenance of full employment, deplores the cancellation of a substantial export order to Spain, involving no question of British security, as a result of the irresponsible and doctrinaire intervention of the Opposition.]
Mr. Lloyd: There was a good deal in what my hon. Friend says. In view of the very strong line taken by the Leader of the Opposition, I was waiting for a proposition from the Opposition on the subject.
Mr. Brockway: In view of the nearness of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference, will the Leader of the House now grant facilities for my Bill against racial discrimination?
Mr. Lloyd: I have nothing to add to what I have said to the hon. Gentleman on earlier occasions.
Mr. Jennings: Will the Burton upon Trent Order be debated early in the evening? Further, is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the dangerous precedent in regard to the validity of tabling this Order, having regard to the fact that, on a previous occasion when the South Staffordshire authorities were affected in similar circumstances, and writs were issued against the Minister, the Order was not laid?
Will my right hon. and learned Friend, as Leader of the House, inquire closely into the reason why Burton has been so insidiously singled out for treatment in isolation?
Mr. Lloyd: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question is, "I hope so". I shall certainly consider what he said in the second part, but, at present, I have nothing to add to what I have said already.
Mr. M. Stewart: The Leader of the House has twice suggested that the validity of the Burton upon Trent Order could be discussed when it comes before the House. Does not he agree that, when the Order comes before the House, the House ought to be free to discuss its merits, and its legal validity is a question for the courts? Is there not a danger, therefore, of wasting the time of the House by asking us to discuss and, perhaps, approve or not approve an Order which may subsequently be declared invalid?
Mr. Lloyd: I have said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings) that I shall consider this matter. What I was trying to say earlier was that I did not think that the interpretation of the sub judice rule was a matter for me.
Dame Irene Ward: Can my right hon. and learned Friend give us an assurance that, when we debate transport next week, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport
1558
will on that day be able to announce whether we are to have a nuclear-powered merchant ship, as an undertaking was given earlier today at Question Time by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science that we should have a statement before the House rose, and we should like to debate it?
Mr. Lloyd: I shall convey to my right hon. and learned Friend what my hon. Friend has said.
Sir B. Janner: Has the Leader of the House considered Motion No. 106 on the Order Paper about compensation for victims of Nazi persecution, to which I and over 100 hon. Members on both sides have put their names? Will he give time to debate the matter, particularly as the Federal German Government are susceptible to understandings and opinions coming from this country about those who suffered under Nazi persecution? As time is running out for many of those widows who would receive pensions if what we are asking for were granted, will the Leader of the House do something about this matter and ensure that those who suffered distress, imprisonment, and so forth, are in some way encouraged to realise that we are thinking of them at this time?
[That this House, noting the final amending law in respect of restitution and compensation to the victims of the Nazis is now under consideration by the Federal German Parliament, expresses the hope that provision will be made for the inclusion on equal terms of entitlement to compensation of the thousands of victims who through no fault of their own and by the application of arbitrary time limits for claims are excluded under the present law, and is encouraged in this hope by the fact that such inclusion and more liberal grants of compensation generally would not constitute a significant burden on the continued thriving economy of West Germany.]
Mr. Lloyd: I shall bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman said towards the end of his question. As regards the possibility of a debate, I think that the right thing now is for claims for compensation to be submitted.
Mr. Webster: Is Wednesday's debate on transport to be a wide-ranging debate,

1559
embracing rail and road haulage, the threat to nationalise road haulage, and compensation?
Mr. Lloyd: The debate will arise on a Supply Day. Whether the Opposition will decide to concentrate upon the question of nationalisation, I do not know.
Mr. Lee: It is now three weeks since the Minister of Aviation received Sir Giles Guthrie's report about the cancellation of the VC.10 orders. On a number of occasions we have asked about the statement which the Minister will make on the matter. Can we now have an assurance from the Leader of the House that it will be made next week?
Mr. Lloyd: No, not next week, I think.
Mr. Farey-Jones: With further reference to the cancellation of the order by the Spanish Government, is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that a most gratuitous insult has been offered to a great, proud and friendly people by the Leader of the Opposition? Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise that there is grave danger—
Mr. C. Pannell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are we not discussing the business for next week? How far are hon. Members of the Opposition—[Laughter.] I am sorry that I anticipated a few months. How far are hon. Members opposite permitted to go on debating now an issue which might very well come up later? Is this not an abuse of the business question procedure?
Mr. Speaker: I always encourage the whole House to confine business questions to business. I do not think that either side, or, indeed, I myself, was ever blameless in the matter, but we ought to try to do that.
Mr. Farey-Jones: As I was asking when I was so crudely interrupted, will my right hon. and learned Friend provide at the first possible opportunity a full day when the House can discuss this whole subject?
Mr. T. Fraser: Can the Leader of the House say whether there will be a statement next week on the ruling by the Restrictive Practices Court on steel prices? Further, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman arrange for the public-
1560
cation of a White Paper, setting out the ruling of the Court, so that hon. Members and the general public, who are entitled to know, may see precisely what the Court said about competitive private enterprise in this industry?
Mr. Lloyd: My reply to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is, "Not without notice". The matter which he raised in the second part is not for me, but I shall convey his request to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Montgomery: When can we expect a statement from the Government on concessionary fares for pensioners? [Laughter.] I do not know what the Opposition find so funny in that. My question refers to an experience which many people in this country have. May I remind my right hon. and learned Friend that he seems to show sympathy in this matter, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in reply to a recent supplementary question, promised to look at the anomalies in this situation? Yesterday, however, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport gave a very unsatisfactory reply to a question put to him. In the circumstances, will my right hon. and learned Friend find out what it is in the Ministry of Transport that is proving so difficult in this matter, and straighten it out?
Mr. Lloyd: Answering the question on business, as far as that is the content of my hon. Friend's question, I have nothing to add today to what I have said before. I will see that the other matter which my hon. Friend raised is brought to the attention of my right hon. Friends who are concerned.
Mr. Short: Will the debate on transport be wide enough to include concessionary fares? If not, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ask the Prime Minister to let him see a letter from an old-age pensioner which I sent to him three weeks ago and to which he has not even had the courtesy to reply?
Mr. Lloyd: I said that the debate on Wednesdy will be a Supply Day and that the choice of topics and the terms of the Motion are for the Opposition.
Mr. W. Clark: May I again press the question of an urgent debate on trade with Spain? Has my right hon. and

1561
learned Friend noticed various Motions on the Order Paper signed by many hon. Members? Does he not agree that it is essential for this matter to be debated—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—so that we may know the difference between supplying frigates to Spain and supplying jet engines to Russia in 1946?
Mr. Lloyd: As my hon. Friend knows, there is a shortage of Government time at this time of the year, but the enthusiasm with which his suggestion for a debate was received on the other side of the House leaves me very confident that the topic will be chosen for an Opposition day.
Mr. Morris: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that the Minister of Aviation makes a statement to the House next week on his proposals to bombard over the next three months eight counties of Wales and the Border with 75 echo flights in an attempt deliberately to break the sound barrier?
Mr. Lloyd: I will see that my right hon. Friend is aware of what the hon. Member has said.
Mr. F. M. Bennett: As one of the sponsors of a Motion on trade with Spain, to which reference has been made, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether there is a method by which we could all meet the convenience of the House in this matter? Could he say whether on Monday's business, the debate will be wide enough to include the discussion of restrictive practices by the Opposition, interfering with international trade?
Mr. Dalyell: To facilitate a more informed debate on Monday week on accommodation, would the Leader of the House make available for hon. Members a full list of the varied uses to which the 1,500 rooms in the Palace of Westminster are put, both in theory and in practice?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that the hon. Member has asked me to undertake a very substantial task indeed.
Mr. Fell: I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend and the House will forgive me for referring again to the Burton upon Trent Order, 1964. A number of hon. Members are extremely
1562
worried about this Order and about our freedom to be able to debate it fully when it comes up for debate. In spite of what my right hon. and learned Friend said, I do not think that any of us is quite clear what will happen when this matter arises for debate next Thursday. May we have an assurance that it will be possible to debate it? If not, would it not be a good idea to withdraw it and to put it down another day?
Mr. Lloyd: It will be exempt business.
Mr. Fletcher: May I ask a question about next Wednesday's business? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that generally when Police Pension Regulations are brought up they have been uncontroversial but that on this occasion the Police Pensions Regulations which the Minister is bringing forward next Wednesday have not yet been agreed with the Police Council, particularly that part of them which deals with the gratuities which should be paid to the widows of policemen who are killed while on duty?
In those circumstances, will he consider the advisability of postponing the Regulations so that those parts which are non-controversial could be relaid and the others deferred until they have been agreed with the Police Council?
Mr. Lloyd: I will consider what the hon. Member has said, but there is, I understand, an urgency about this matter. We had better see how we get on next Wednesday.
Mr. Fell: I am grateful for another opportunity of asking the same question. My right hon. and learned Friend did not understand me at all. Perhaps that was due to the way in which I put the question. I am asking whether the debate on the Order will be limited owing to the fact that it may be ruled that a debate on it is sub judice.
Mr. Lloyd: I have said that I will consider that matter. I said previously that I did not think that it was for me to rule whether certain Orders were ruled out of order because they were sub judice.
Mr. W. Hamilton: When the right hon. Gentleman arranged the business for Tuesday afternoon did he realise that the

1563
Government have arranged that the Scottish Standing Committee should meet on Tuesday afternoon for the fourth sitting of the Committee, at 4 p.m. to discuss the Divorce (Scotland) Bill and that a dozen Scotttish hon. Members will, therefore, have a conflict of duties between whether to attend the Obscene Publications Bill down here or upstairs?
In view of the obvious importance which the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Government attach to the business in the House on Tuesday afternoon, and also in view of the fact that the Bill upstairs was a Private Member's Bill, will the Government now drop the Bill which we are discussing upstairs so that we may pay attention to our duties on the Floor of the House?
Mr. Lloyd: No, Sir.
Mr. Milne: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the tremendous inconvenience which is being experienced by British holidaymakers as the result of the activities of some unscrupulous travel agents in Britain? Will he provide Parliamentary time to introduce legislation to protect them from these experiences?
Mr. Lloyd: I cannot promise any time for that next week.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the concern of hon. Members who signed the Motion about trade with Spain, could the Leader of the House say whether he has had any request that an official invitation should be given to General Franco to pay a visit to this country so that he may inspect the very large number of obsolete naval vessels which are at our disposal—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that that comes within a discussion of next week's business.
Mr. Mitchison: I am sorry to revert again to Thursday's business, but may I ask whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman is aware that the question which he is being asked is about the proper performance of his duties as Leader of the House in arranging the business which comes before us. As far as I can see, the question either today or when the matter has to be ruled upon
1564
on Thursday is not under the sub judice rule. It is a question of the relations between this House and the judiciary.
Mr. Lloyd: I have said that I will consider that matter. The scope of the debate is not a matter for me.
Mr. Thorpe: So that the Leader of the House shall not feel that the request for a debate on Spain comes only from one side of the House, may I urge him to give consideration to the possibility of a debate on this matter? Is he aware that it is firmly felt that the cancellation of this contract may lead to grave economic consequences, and possibly a flight from the £ and mass unemployment, unless this country can continue to trade in arms with Fascist countries?
Since it is a long and honourable tradition of the Conservative Party to supply arms, for example, to Mussolini up to three days before the outbreak of the war, is it not right that this matter should be debated urgently?
Mr. Lloyd: It would be a very good thing if it were debated early so that some very foolish statements could be corrected quickly.
Mr. Ross: Is the Leader of the House aware that when there is an afternoon sitting of a Committee, it is very rare and usually takes place towards the end of a Bill? It is not a situation with which we are usually faced when a Bill starts going through Committee. Will he consider the application of my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton)? Does he appreciate that there is no fixed time for ending a sitting which starts at 4 p.m.? A morning sitting must finish at 1 p.m., but if the Committee meets at 4 p.m., no time is fixed at which it must end. The last Committee which we had sitting in this way, for Scottish Members, ended at 12.37 a.m. the next day.
Does he therefore appreciate the difficulty of Scottish Members in relation to two important Bills, one being dealt with on the Floor of the House and one in Committee? Are the Government prepared to steamroller this through to the extent of keeping Scottish Members till unreasonable hours in Committee on Tuesday?
Mr. Lloyd: The reason I said "No" to the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) was that he asked me whether I would arrange for the Bill upstairs to be dropped. The answer to that is, "No". I realise that there are sometimes conflicts of duty which involve hon. Members in inconvenience. I will see whether there is anything that I can do about it, but I rather doubt it.
Mrs. Castle: May I reinforce the plea for an early debate on the subject of arms for Spain, so that the Government can explain their policy on arms exports, their current embargo on the export of arms to 14 countries, including Cuba, and the action they intend to take to replace the exports and employment lost by that embargo?
Mr. Lloyd: I note the hon. Lady's interest. Perhaps she will address her advocacy to those who still have four Supply Days available.
Mr. Lipton: May we expect a statement from the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food about the suspicious details surrounding the relationship between the Egg Marketing Board and the Western Egg Pasteurisation Company, Ltd.? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Minister, despite urgent requests from this side of the House, failed to deal with this subject during our debate on agriculture on Monday? May we, therefore, have a statement, to clear up a very unsatisfactory situation?
Mr. Lloyd: I cannot answer that question without notice. But the hon. Gentleman has a perfectly obvious way of getting the information he wants. He can put down a Question.
Mr. Steele: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you say how long business questions will continue? It is now ten minutes past four and we are hoping to have a Scottish debate on education today.
Mr. Speaker: I have great sympathy with the hon. Gentleman and I would like to get to it. So far, I have adopted the practice of treating business questions as the back benchers' opportunity to raise any topics which interest them and I have
1566
called all those who have risen. But I shall not be able to continue to do so if the occasion is abused
Sir B. Janner: I am sorry to have to raise this point again, but is the Leader of the House aware that he has mistaken the purport of the Motion to which I referred concerning compensation? While I appreciate that he is sympathetic to those who are making claims, is he aware that the Motion refers to those who are at present not making claims because they are debarred from doing so? They were behind the Iron Curtain before and up to 1953 so that they were unable to do anything about their claims.
In these circumstances, and in the light of his sympathetic answer, will he reconsider whether the Motion can be given a place for discussion so that the West German Government may realise that the victims concerned were, through no fault of their own, unable to put in their claims by October, 1953?
Mr. Lloyd: I am aware that this subject commands great interest and sympathy on both sides of the House. I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. C. Johnson: We are to have a debate on accommodation in the Palace of Westminster. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall that, a few weeks ago, I drew his attention to the fact that most Reports by earlier Select Committees on Accommodation were out of print? Since it may prove to be essential to refer to some of these Reports during the debate, has he been able to make arrangements for them to be available to hon. Members who wish to take part?
Mr. Lloyd: I was not aware that the hon. Gentleman would raise the matter again today. I will look into it again and send him an answer.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Redmayne.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [21st ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1964–65
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a further sum, not exceeding £40, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1965, for the following services connected with Education in Scotland, namely:—

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1964–65

  £

  Class III, Vote 2, Scottish Home and Health Department

  10

  Class VI, Vote 10, Scottish Education Department

  10

  Class VII, Vote 1, Universities and Colleges, etc., Great Britain

  10

  Class I, Vote 4, Privy Council Office

  10

  Total

  £40

  SCOTLAND (EDUCATION)
  4.15 p.m.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: We have here for discussion today the Report of the Scottish Education Department for 1963. The references to improvements in that Report will be welcomed by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, but there are so many aspects of Scottish education which give great cause for concern that I propose to devote my remarks to these. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will give minute details of the improvements.
  The gravest problem facing Scottish education is the shortage of teachers. I emphasise at once that there is no easy solution. Anyone who thinks that there is is being very foolish. In 1963, there was a shortage of 3,482 teachers, representing an overall shortage of 8·5 per cent. The position is even worse among categories of specialist teachers, particularly among teachers of mathematics. In this category, the shortage last year was
  1568
  22 per cent., which is very serious. It is estimated that, in 1966, the shortage will have grown to 5,000 and, in 1975, to 7,000. This is not, therefore, a short-term problem but one which will face us for a considerable time.
  In estimating future shortages the figures of 5,000 and 7,000 take no account of the proposal to raise the school-leaving age to 16, nor of very much-needed development in further education. Successive Secretaries of State have had more advice on the problem of the shortage of teachers than on almost any other, but I say advisedly that the tragedy is that so often they have rejected it.
  The latest report published on this problem came recently from the University of Glasgow Appointments Committee. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has already had a copy of it, but I advise him very strongly to study it and to act on its suggestions. I cannot deal with all the excellent proposals it contains, but I draw the Committee's attention to certain parts of it. The Committee examined various aspects of the shortage, particularly as it affects graduate teachers, and made this comment on page 5:
  "If it is accepted that in this highly competitive field of recruitment, teaching is unlikely to improve on its present share of available man-power, the only logical argument thereafter is to try to increase the numbers taking degrees or their equivalents."
  That seems obvious indeed, but the Knox Committee, appointed by the Secretary of State in 1957, seven years ago, made the very point that is made in this report from Glasgow University. What is more the Knox Committee not only made that point, but suggested means of increasing the pool of educated manpower.
  In its examination of the problem the Knox Committee was very concerned indeed at the number of pupils who left senior secondary schools in Scotland without completing their courses. Although more pupils are remaining at school today—and it would be very surprising if the figure were not higher, since we have a greater number of children in school due to the increased birthrate, and, of course, we welcome the increase—the position is still very far from satisfactory.

  1569
  The Department's Report for 1963 says that 67 per cent. of all pupils leave school at the earliest moment possible, that is, when they reach the age of 15. Of those pupils following courses leading to the Scottish Certificate of Education, nearly 40 per cent. left before completing their fourth year. It is shocking that 40 per cent. of those who were considered fit to take a certificate at the O grade, or to take a certificate at the higher grade, did not remain in school long enough to take any of these examinations. I do not suggest that all of them could have obtained qualifications to enter a university or to enter colleges of education, but I am convinced that quite a large proportion of them could have done so.
  The Knox Committee was also convinced of that, because in May, 1957, it wrote to the Secretary of State on the draft bursary regulations and urged that school bursaries should be raised considerably. It suggested that the bursary for those in the fourth year of a secondary school should be £78, and that for those in the fifth and sixth years it should be £104. We all know how the cost of living has increased under Tory Governments over the last seven years, but at the beginning of last year, six years after the Knox Committee proposals were made, fourth year students instead of receiving £78 received £45, and fifth and sixth year students, instead of receiving £104, received £60. Those figures are far below what the Knox Committee considered was necessary to encourage more of these young people who were fit to take certificate courses to continue at school.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: I had the honour to be a member of the Knox Committee and I recall the evidence on the point which the hon. Lady has made. If the hon. Lady reads all the relevant paragraphs, I think that she will agree that one compelling factor in the point that she is making had nothing to do with bursaries, unfortunately, because that was a matter which might have been put right, but had to do with social reasons, particularly in relation to the very large earnings open to those young people in competitive alternatives in civil life.
  Miss Herbison: The hon. Lady has backed to the hilt my case and the case
  1570
  put forward by the Knox Committee. I did not want to waste hon. Members' time. I thought that everyone would take it for granted that young people, once they saw their friends earning big wages, while they themselves were receiving these small grants, would feel that they wanted to leave school and be like their friends. I have read the Knox Committee's Report many times, and did so again only yesterday. The hon. Lady's intervention has backed up the case that I was making.
  Six years after the Knox Committee made its recommendations, students were still receiving very much less than it proposed. The Government have now raised the figures to £70 and £100 respectively, but they are still a few pounds below what was suggested by the Knox Committee, seven years ago, and I stress again that there has been a considerable increase in the cost of living during those seven years, and there has also been a considerable increase in the wages which young people can earn. This shillyshallying, parsimonious Government must be held responsible for the loss of a considerable number of potential teachers.
  I propose now to say a word about the responsibility of parents, because this is something which I stress whenever I speak on education. I believe that a boy or girl of 15 ought not to be allowed to decide to leave school. The home background and the influence of the parents can play an important part in ensuring that more young people remain at school. I hope that every hon. Member will stress this point when speaking to parents or to the public.
  I deal next with another part of this report from Glasgow University. The appointments committee interviewed a number of students. It was trying to discover the deterrents; the matters which prevented graduates from entering colleges of education. Under the heading "The Post-Graduate Year Spent in College of Education", the Report says, on page 10:
  "The argument for payment during training has become more insistent during the past few years and is likely to grow in strength as time goes on … Most students are well aware of the normal practice in industry, the Civil Service, nationalised undertakings and certain other professions where graduates are paid during (raining and they argue strongly

  1571
  that there should be some form of payment at the same stage in teacher training. We are fairly certain that the matters which have been discussed under this heading now form the most commonly stated deterrent to the recruitment of graduates to teaching."
  This is not news, and it certainly is not news to the Secretary of State and to his predecessor, because in 1957 the Knox Committee recommended that during the period of teacher training grants equivalent to those paid by the D.S.I.R. should be paid to those in training. The Government scorned the advice of their own Committee. They took no action on that important recommendation. The Report marks this as the greatest deterrent in attracting graduates to the teaching profession. The Secretary of State and the Government must be severely criticised for the loss of potential teachers. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, even at this late date, to urge a change of heart on the question of payment to those who take teacher-training.
  I turn to the shortage of places in universities, because it is very germane to the shortage of teachers. The increase in the number of those desiring university education consequent on the increase in the birth rate was absolutely foreseeable. But not for this Government. Where were they hiding their head, I just would not know. It is a most reprehensible situation that hundreds of fully qualified Scottish students cannot find a place in our universities. I ask the Secretary of State how many teachers we have lost because of the shortage of university places.
  For years, Labour Members have been urging the Government rapidly to expand our existing universities and above all, to build a new university in Scotland. We have had precious little help from any Scottish Tory Member in our fight. Finally, the Government hid behind the Robbins Committee. They said that they could not make an announcement until the Robbins Committee reported. Why this should be so no sensible person in Scotland will ever know, because for a considerable time there has been irrefutable evidence that a sixth university is a "must" for Scotland.
  Can the Secretary of State today tell us whether a decision has been reached on the site of the new university? Can he say when building of this sixth uni-
  1572
  versity will begin? Can he give us a categorical assurance that no university expansion is being held back through a lack of capital investment? Most knowledgeable people in Scotland believe that quite a number of projects are being held back because the Government are unwilling to put up the necessary finance.
  On the question of the supply of teachers, I indict the Government on at least three points: first, for failing to raise bursaries; secondly, for failing to pay students in training; and thirdly, for failing to provide university places in sufficient numbers. Because the Government have failed in all of these matters they have starved our schools of desperately-needed teachers.
  I turn for a short time to the question of attracting married women back to the teaching profession. Is the Secretary of State convinced that everything possible is being done to attract married women back to teaching? From my own experience of teaching, I realise all the difficulties of arranging a timetable to suit women who possibly want only part-time work. But I also realise that much greater efforts must be made to overcome these difficulties. Many married women would be willing to work, say, half a day of five days a week. Others might be willing to work two or three full days a week.
  Have the Government done anything to encourage education authorities to make greater use of those women who are willing to do part-time teaching? Have they given any encouragement to local authorities to prepare a register of all the married women teachers in their area? In this respect, as in so many others, more drive and imagination is required from the Government.
  I turn to the vexed question of the employment of uncertificated teachers in Scottish schools. In 1951, there were 910 uncertificated teachers. Last year, there were 2,525—and the number is still increasing. This figure represents 6 per cent. of the entire teaching force in Scotland. But the situation is much worse than that in some areas, like Lanarkshire and Glasgow, which have very much more than their share of uncertificated teachers.
  In 1951, the Labour Government introduced the special recruitment scheme for

  1573
  teachers. There was no dilution in it at all. I am very pleased that 4,730 teachers have been recruited under this scheme and that 3,610 have completed their training. Had it not been for this scheme, Scottish education would be in a very much worse state than it is. Can the Secretary of State name a single bold, imaginative scheme for the recruitment of teachers which has been produced by the Government over the last 13 years? The answer must be, "No".
  Has the Secretary of State taken the trouble to read the resolution on uncertificated teachers which was adopted at the annual general meeting of the Educational Institute of Scotland? If he has not, I advise him to do so before he gets hot under the collar, as he has done, and is blatantly offensive to the vast body of Scottish teachers. The greater part of the resolution was constructive.
  In the Department's Report we are told that 473 uncertificated teachers had qualifications seriously below standard. Has the Secretary of State, who knows very little about Scottish education, any idea of the damage which can be done to our children by such people, no matter how well-meaning they are? Has he no sense of responsibility for the education of so many of our children who, during almost the whole of their time in school, are being taught by uncertificated teachers, some of whom, in the Department's own words, are seriously below standard? I urge the right hon. Gentleman—and I say this deliberately—to ensure that not one of those seriously sub-standard teachers will teach for another day in a Scottish school.
  The other uncertificated teachers should continue to be employed, but on very strict conditions. Many of them are graduates. Many could take their training under the special recruitment scheme. The Secretary of State should lay down a definite time within which they must become certificated. The time suggested in the resolution of the E.I.S. might be too short, but after consultation the Secretary of State should specify a definite time after which, if any of these uncertificated teachers have not become qualified, they will not continue to teach. This will not happen, however, if the Secretary of State continues only with weak exhortations.
  1574
  Page 74 of the Secretary of State's Report states that
  "The advantages of becoming certificated were drawn to the attention of 2,500 persons employed as uncertificated teachers in June through a letter addressed to them by the Secretary of State and distributed by the education authorities."
  That is not enough. Again, it shows a lack of imagination by the Government, who, I stress, should lay down a time by which the teachers will become trained.
  The Secretary of State should forthwith begin discussions with our colleges of education to find how best they can help to give the training. It need not all be done during the ordinary sessions. This is a matter of great urgency and it seems to me that we could have a crash programme to train some of the uncertificated teachers. Why not have discussions about classes at weekends or during vacations, and particularly the longer vacations? If the Secretary of State could be seized of what could be done in this way, I am sure that a great many of those teachers would ultimately become certificated. If the Secretary of State would do what I have been asking, it would go a long way to restore the confidence of teachers and to enhance the status of their profession.
  I turn for a short time to the question of school building. I have no doubt that when the Secretary of State replies he will tell us that capital investment in school building is the highest ever. We do not challenge that. The Government's stop-go policy has, however, made it impossible for education authorities to plan ahead. If an education authority like my own builds up a strong team of architects and is ready to launch an all-out attack on our slum schools and the provision of new schools in the development districts, it is always then that down comes the Government's brake on such local authorities.
  The Plowden Committee drew attention to this matter. I shall not quote the Report—I intended to, but I have been speaking rather long—but I advise the Secretary of State to read what the Plowden Committee said about the effect of the stop-go policy on public expenditure.
  When my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) asked a

  1575
  series of Questions, he was told that some of the information which he requested had not been collated. So he could not have it. It seems strange to us, particularly in the last few weeks, that when the Scottish Tory Members have been putting down "stooge" Questions, and even when they have been asking "stooge" supplementary questions, somehow or other the Secretary of State had all the information in his brief but that important information about the increase in the cost of school building because of the Government's stop-go policy has not been collated. This is disgraceful. Not only should all Scottish Members have this information, but Scottish parents and the public in Scotland should be able to have it, too.
  Even the building employers have stated that their industry has suffered more than any other from constantly being used by the Government as a major economic register. Most of them, I imagine, are the Government's friends, but we find proof of what the building employers say when we look at the tables in the Government's own Report. We find that in 1955 the value of projects approved was about £13¼ million. That was an election year. There is always lots of money for capital investment in this, that and the other in an election year. In the following year, however, it dropped to under £10 million, a fall of £3¼ million in one year, not because we did not still need the schools, but because once the election was over, and the Government had won, they did not seem to think that there was any urgency in the building of schools.
  In 1962, the value of projects approved was about £27½ million. At that time, we were expecting to have an election, but there were some little local difficulties which prevented the Government from holding one and in 1963 they could not maintain that figure. It was an election year figure and it could not be kept up. In 1963, there was a drop of £2¼ million.
  Every education authority has had its estimates drastically cut. The City of Glasgow, which has the biggest pupil population in Scotland, received only 33 per cent. of its estimated needs. It is no wonder that there is a shortage of
  1576
  teachers in Glasgow when one thinks of some of the slum conditions of the schools. In Lanarkshire, we did a bit better, with 66 per cent. of our estimated needs. But Lanarkshire is in the central growth area. The Government boast of the great improvements which they will carry out in the infrastructure of the growth areas. I ask the Secretary of State; is there anything more important in building up the infrastructure of any growth area than the building of schools and technical colleges?
  Mr. Archie Manuel: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Government are not treating all growth areas similarly, even though the cut in Lanarkshire was bad enough? Is she aware that the value of the three-year school building programme of the Ayr County Council was cut from £7 million to £3 million? Is she further aware of the great concern of parents in the Burgh of Irvine, a growth area, because of the lack of accommodation and having to cope with overspill from Glasgow?
  Miss Herbison: I have looked at the figures for every local authority in Scotland and what my hon. Friend has just said could be said by every hon. Member from every constituency in Scotland, whether Tory or Labour. I will deal with overspill in connection with another matter.
  Not only is Lanarkshire the centre of the central growth area, but it has a new town and a big development area, like the one to which my hon. Friend has referred. The Under-Secretary of State told me recently that the special working party had advised the Secretary of State that no special allocation should be given to education authorities with new towns within their boundaries. What did the Secretary of State expect when he gave this remit? With the working of the general grant scheme, every local authority knows that if more is given to another local authority, the authority itself will suffer and receive less. The decision about what should have been done for new towns and big overspill development areas was one that rested fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Secretary of State. He has shuffled off this responsibility, but the Scottish people realise that he was the only person who could have made the decision.

  1577
  I turn to West Lothian, which was getting 53 per cent. of its estimated needs. It has a new town growing within its boundary, in the very early stages. It wants to attract industry, as we do to the central growth areas. Again, adequate facilities for education are of the greatest importance in these developments. In this field again the Secretary of State has shirked his responsibilities, with the result that thousands of Scottish children are being taught in over-crowded and slum schools and, in some instances, in overcrowded new schools.
  The headmaster of a new school in my constituency finds the building too small already and has two classes in another school. He has had to give up one of them because of the growth of population in Bishopriggs, and when he opens in August one of his classes will be taught on the platform of the hall in this almost brand-new school. That is a picture of our school building.
  I do not ask the Secretary of State today to announce any further grants for this purpose. I do not think that there is any sense in doing so, because I am certain that the Scottish people will ensure that there is another Secretary of State by the time we have another Scottish education debate.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: They have already shown that in Scotland.
  Miss Herbison: Perhaps I should add that the people of Britain will see to it that we have another Secretary of State for Scotland.
  I turn now to the question of day release. Here again, we find disgracefully low figures. In 1956–57, 11 per cent. of workers under 18 were enjoying day release classes. By 1962–63, the figure had risen to only 12·4 per cent. What have the Government done to improve this? Have they any imaginative schemes? They have done very little indeed. Delay after delay in providing technical colleges has denied many of our young people who leave school at 15 the chance to get the further education which they ought to have. Again, I stress that many of the young people between 15 and 18 are the ones who suffered from being educated in overcrowded classes, had uncertificated teachers very often and were often educated in slum schools. Our
  1578
  position in day release is worse than that in England and Wales. Indeed, it is worse than in almost any other country in Western Europe.
  My final point concerns the Wheatley Report. In this field the Secretary of State has shown a deplorable lack of any sense of good public relations. In November, 1961, he appointed the Wheatley Committee. It reported in June, 1963, more than a year ago. The contents of the Report are of great significance to the future enhancement of the status of teachers. Some time after June the Secretary of State asked interested bodies to give their views on the Report, and those views had to be in his hands at the latest by January this year. So I take it that he has had the Report for more than a year and the views for five months, and yet since then there has been complete silence.
  On 17th June my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) asked the Secretary of State whether he had any statement to make. The right hon. Gentleman said a great deal had to be discussed. Have discussions been initiated, and, if so, with whom? Mo discussions have been initiated with the teachers of Scotland on the subject of the Wheatley Report. The right hon. Gentleman also said that there was no question of legislation this Session. Apparently legislation to improve education propects is of little importance to the Government compared with legislation on divorce and the Measure dealing with tourism, which was ill-conceived and took three of our valuable mornings in Committee before it was withdrawn. This illustrates the incompetency of the Government. On this matter of such prime importance to teachers and education the Government cannot find time for legislation.
  I tell the Secretary of State that even at this late stage the Opposition will facilitate the passing of such legislation before the end of July. Let it be a Government Measure, not a trumped-up, pretended Private Member's Bill. Let the Minister come forward with it, and we will give him every facility to get it through Parliament. I can tell him that teachers are suspicious that he has decided to reject the recommendations, and who can blame them? His delay in

  1579
  bringing forward legislation has already led to cynicism among the teachers.
  There is great resentment at his statement in the House to my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill, when he said that strike action was bound to raise doubts in the minds of Members of Parliament and the public whether the teaching profession should be given wider powers to control its own affairs. I just ask the right hon. Gentleman to read an article in The Times Educational Supplement, not a Labour publication, which said that it was unfortunate that in answering a Parliamentary Question the Secretary of State coupled the teachers' mild reference to strike action with the issue concerning the approval of the Wheatley Report.
  The Secretary of State's arrogant attitude ill-befits one who has such serious problems on his hands. Even if he cannot cope with legislation because of all the pseudo-Private Members' Bills with which we have been dealing, perhaps he will today announce what he accepts and what he rejects in the Report. I wish to put on record our praise and thanks for the devoted service by teachers in Scotland, a devotion which is sometimes very sorely tried. At the same time, I condemn the Government who, after 13 years of complete power, have left us with a growing shortage of teachers, almost unbelievable slum conditions in many schools, overcrowded classes, sparse provision for further education and a shortage of university places. Tonight, we shall register our protest, on behalf of Scottish children and parents, in the Division Lobby.
  5.0 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Michael Noble): The hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) started her speech welcoming the many improvements which were set forth in the Education Department's Annual Report. She finished her speech—before the last few lines, which were clearly meant to catch the headlines in some newspapers—
  Mr. Willis: Silly man! Do not be childish.
  Mr. Noble: —by saying that she—
  Mr. Willis: Remember that you are the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Sir Thomas Moore: Quiet.
  Mr. Noble: —wanted to praise the teachers who have done such great service for Scotland over the years. Those sentiments of the hon. Lady's are echoed by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee.
  The hon. Lady said, with reasonable foresight, that at least part of my speech would be concerned with the good things which have been done. This is right. If the Committee is to debate this matter seriously we must have truly constructive and helpful criticisms from hon. Members on both sides. The hon. Lady gave us the advantage of many of her ideas, and I admit that some of them are constructive. But it is also right that this annual stocktaking debate should contain a reasonable assessment of the position from the point of view of the Scottish Office.
  I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee would not wish me to try to cover the whole field of education, because it is an enormous one, and I know that many hon. Members wish to speak. I shall, therefore, try to concentrate on some of the features that seem specially important at present. Many of them have already been raised by the hon. Lady. Naturally enough, I want to say something about the crucial question of teacher supply, and something about school building—and I shall also talk, not too long, about some aspects of the curriculum and of the work of further education.
  Hon. Members will recall the debate which we had upstairs in March on the Brunton Working Party's Report, when we devoted two mornings to considering the new approach that we must make to the secondary education of the large majority of our children—those who are not following courses leading to the Scottish Certificate of Education. General agreement was expressed with the main recommendations of the Report, and I have since then asked education authorities to give effect to the recommendations as soon as possible. My inspectors are working with them preparing plans, and by the end of November this year the authorities

  1581
  will be reporting what their intentions are for carrying out the various recommendations.
  In view of our earlier debate I shall not seek to go over this ground again, but I still regard this as one of the most important problems ahead of us. The raising of the school-leaving age makes it even more essential that we should have soundly-based secondary courses established of a kind which will not only stimulate the interest of the young people concerned but will also equip them for work and for life.
  I should like to turn now to some of the specific issues which face us in the stock-taking of which I spoke. The hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North said a great deal—and rightly—about the critical importance of an adequate supply of teachers. Certainly, all our plans for the future of our schools depend on our having enough properly qualified teachers to carry them through. But while the difficulties exist—and I shall say more about them presently—I think it right to put them in perspective, and draw the attention of the Committee to the very real progress that we have made.
  Last October, almost 40,000 certificated teachers were employed in education authority and grant-aided schools in Scotland—the highest number we have ever had. The average ratio of pupils to certificated teachers—and I stress the word "average"—was 24 to 1; lower than ever before. Since 1951 the number of certificated teachers has risen by almost 20 per cent., by 6,500. The number of men in the profession—graduates and the non-graduate teachers of what are somewhat confusingly called "technical" subjects—has risen by 35 per cent.
  In the same period we have recruited about 17,000 newly trained young women from the colleges and have brought back to the schools several thousand married women. Yet the increase in the number of women teachers since 1951 is only 2,600. One thing that Secretaries of State dare not do is to prevent Scots women teachers from marrying and having their families earlier than ever before. This is a fact of the supply situation which we have to accept.
  1582
  Last October, the education authorities and other school managers estimated that they needed 3,482 more teachers to fill vacancies, to bring all classes within the prescribed maxima and to enable them to dispense with the services of the teachers over 70 years of age who were still in the schools and of all uncertificated teachers. I think that I should make three points about this figure of 3,482 teachers needed. First, it is not the number of unfilled vacancies. The majority of these posts are filled, and, in my view, often quite adequately filled. Secondly, the shortages are not spread uniformly. The greatest difficulties are in the industrial areas, especially in the west.
  My third point is one that is probably not widely understood. Nearly two-thirds of the total number of teachers required are needed in secondary schools. The main part of the deficiency there is not in the recognised academic subjects—English, mathematics, and so on. Most of the teachers needed are teachers of art, music, homecraft, commercial and technical subjects, physical education, and so on—that is, teachers who are rarely, if ever, university graduates, but have been trained elsewhere. The shortages in these fields account for more than one-third of the total teacher shortages.
  If we are to get a sufficient supply of teachers we must do two things—attract more people into the profession and ensure that those who wish to come in are given the opportunity to train for it. I have also read the report made by Glasgow University Appointments Committee, to which the hon. Lady has referred. She quite properly picked out one or two points in respect of which she thought I had some responsibility for taking action. She has read the report carefully, and she realises that some other matters were stressed in the same report. I shall not give them any publicity, because I believe that if I did it could have exactly the reverse effect to that which we all want, namely, to attract teachers into the profession.
  One important inducement is the level of salaries. Few people are ever satisfied with the pay that they get, but I think that over the last few years we have built up a structure of salaries for Scottish teachers which is just and

  1583
  attractive. Over 3,700 people entered training last autumn—more than ever before—so the attraction is there. The picture is not all black. I need say little on salaries today, because a settlement was reached last year, to stand until 1966. This agreement suited both sides. The teachers had the advantage of the larger increase for the whole period, and I welcomed the stability of a three-year agreement.
  For people in other occupations who can be induced to become teachers we have the Special Recruitment Scheme, which the Labour Party brought into force. Since the scheme was introduced in 1951, as the hon. Lady told us, 3,610 teachers have become certificated under it, and the numbers are rising each year.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: While we are on the question of finance, and in the presence of the Minister of State for Education and Science, I should like to ask what consideration has been given to the question of Income Tax allowances for married women who come back to teaching, and I should also like to know whether any tax incentives can be given in respect of domestic help. These are important issues.
  Mr. Noble: There are a great many important issues of this sort, all of which have to be considered, but I should like to make my speech in my own way. The hon. Gentleman has made his point and it may well be one which can be considered.
  Increasing numbers of young people are taking up the extra places in higher education now being provided. From them we hope and believe we shall draw the teachers that we need. I have already approved a major programme of expansion, amounting to £7 million, which will double the capacity of the colleges of education, and still further expansion may be necessary when this is completed.
  A year ago the Scottish Council for the Training of Teachers proposed a crash programme of two colleges, each for 600 girls, to open this October. It was a bold proposal and it has been carried through with skill and vigour. The two colleges will open on time, each
  1584
  with a first year of 200 students. I take this opportunity of congratulating all those concerned on this achievement.
  What of the future? We shall continue the measures already being taken and develop them as necessary. The great imponderable in all calculations of future supply is the number of women teachers who will return to teaching once their families are off their hands. The number of girls qualifying for primary work each year is rising fast and now approaches 2,000. If half of them—and of all the other women teachers training with them—come back to the schools later, when their other responsibilities permit, our staffing difficulties will be very much less.
  I shall certainly do all I can to help. Already, this year, I have run a second publicity campaign to encourage married women to come back to teaching. If an education authority can show me that by setting up a nursery class for teachers' children it could get back a group of such teachers I shall be ready to agree that the authority should provide it. If there are any other specific ideas which the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North, or anyone else, can think of to try to attract back married teachers, I will consider them.
  Not only do we need more teachers. If we are to meet the needs of the majority of our young people who are not in the academic stream, we need a great many teachers trained differently than in the past. For many years the colleges have been somewhat circumscribed in the courses which they could offer. Within the next few weeks I shall publish the draft of new Teachers' Training Regulations which, while mainly consolidation, will introduce some changes which are I believe acceptable. By removing some restrictions we shall make it easier for the colleges to train teachers as they ought to be trained, and as the colleges wish to train them, for the work that they are to do.
  I have mentioned briefly the efforts we have already made, or have in hand. We are constantly watching their effect and whatever more needs to be done we shall try to do. On any further measures which may become necessary we shall, as in any other matter which

  1585
  so closely concerns the teaching profession, consult their interests and take their point of view fully into account.
  Now I turn to educational building. The hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North, said that she had no doubt that I should be able to announce a total which was higher than ever before, and that is so. This year, work on all educational building in Scotland, excluding universities, was over £61 million, which is 18 per cent. more than at March, 1963. May I take the hon. Lady up on the figures she produced and the arguments which she advanced about the stop-go policy for education in Scotland? Until two years ago, to the best of my knowledge, not a single education authority in Scotland was stopped by me, because of finance, from building any school which it wanted to build. That was up to two years ago. If there has been any stop-go, it has been in the hon. Lady's own county. She knows very well that in the year 1961–62 Lanarkshire did not build any schools at all—or, rather, start any new schools.
  I think it a travesty of an argument to say that there has been a stop-go policy in Scottish school building which has prevented counties from going ahead. I think that what the hon. Lady means is that an education authority may make an estimate and propose to spend £5 million, £10 million, or £15 million, but the situation may be such that my Department cuts the estimate. That is not what is normally meant by a stop-go policy.
  Miss Herbison: I wish to take up the Minister's indictment of Lanarkshire County Council. At no time did the council stop building schools. It went ahead with every school that the Secretary of State and his Department allowed to go ahead. If the Secretary of State does not know, his Department will know that very well. If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to the amounts which have been spent on school building each year—I gave some of them—he will see that in truth there has been a stop-go policy.
  Sir Myer Galpern: Will the Minister tell us why every education authority in Scotland joined in a deputation last year—it was probably the strongest deputation ever sent
  1586
  to St. Andrew's House—to protest in the strongest possible terms about cuts in the educational building programmes?
  Mr. Noble: This is an entirely different problem. I do not in the least object to the hon. Lady saying that there were cuts last year in what local authorities hoped they might be able to do. But this is not what is generally meant by a stop-go policy. As I said to the hon. Lady—I am quite prepared to withdraw it if I am wrong—my information is that in the year 1961–62 the Lanarkshire education authority did not ask to start a single school; it may be that was a year which was perhaps beneficial to other education authorities because they were able to use the money which Lanarkshire did not use.
  The actual work done in 1963 amounted to almost £22 million, an increase of about 16 per cent. on 1962. These are record figures, but let me make it perfectly clear that certain education and other authorities have very serious problems in providing schools, particularly because of large increases and shifts in the school population, overspill, and so on. The criticisms which are often made of educational building have to be looked at against the very real achievements of the last decade—I think that even the hon. Lady would agree with that—and, in particular, the last two years.
  This summer, we shall indicate the value of programmes for each authority up to the middle of the financial year 1967–68. This means that authorities will know how much work they can start up to the autumn of 1967. They will be able to see their way clear ahead for a period of three years. We intend to go on doing this each year so that there will always be a firm programme for three years ahead.
  I hope that education authorities will make the best use of the opportunities which this programme offers. The larger authorities, in particular, should find it much easier to adopt the best methods of contracting, such as serial contracting, or the extended use of industrialised forms of construction. If the three-year programme is to work, each authority will have to decide which schools it proposes to build first and stick to that decision except in the most exceptional circumstances. Any chopping and changing at

  1587
  a later stage will simply mean that the real advantages of forward planning will be thrown away and it will increase the cost.
  Mr. William Ross: I hope that the Government will take that unto themselves. A short time ago they prescribed a hospital building programme for Ayrshire, Paisley and Motherwell. Now we are told that the Government have cut it.
  Mr. Noble: I do not think that that has any part in our discussion today.
  Mr. Ross: The Government said that three hospitals would be built in last year's plan and now they are not to be built.
  Mr. Noble: The amount of money spent on hospitals has steadily gone up.
  The total amount of investment which will be available for school building in Scotland as a whole is: starts to the value of £17 million in 1965–66; £17 million in 1966–67; and £9 million for the first part of 1967–68.
  Mr. James Dempsey: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Noble: I cannot give way again. If hon. Members desire to take part in the debate they must not expect me to keep giving way.
  I have told education authorities that allowance will be made in 1967–68 and subsequent years, if not before—when the demands can be clearly assessed—for the additional accommodation shown to be essential for raising the school leaving age.
  And now a word about building for further education. The amount of work done in 1963 was over £5 million for the first time. Over £14 million worth of work is under construction and over £10 million of this should be completed in the present financial year. Among the important new buildings coming into use in the next session are Napier College, Edinburgh, and the Kingsway Trades College, Dundee. Here too, I hope to notify authorities soon about the programme for a period ahead.
  These facts and figures show how the educational building programme is expanding, but expansion has to proceed smoothly. We have to see that our
  1588
  resources are devoted to the right projects at the right prices. And I want to emphasise that it is the completion of buildings that matters. It is useless to start more and more if it means taking longer and longer to finish.
  I believe that most education authorities appreciate that there is a real limit to the amount of work that can be put in hand at any one time, that the present volume is about as much as they can get on with at a reasonable rate—some £45 million worth on schools alone. Indeed, I think the House should know that a comparison of the work on school building in the two countries shows that in England and Wales the work actually gets done about one-third faster than it does in Scotland. I think this comparison suggests that we would achieve much better results in Scotland by building faster than by putting more work in hand at any one time. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock laughs.
  Mr. Ross: I laugh because I have just seen the report of the Civil and Building Engineers in Scotland.
  Mr. Noble: The hon. Gentleman laughs, but it is none the less true that at the moment in Scotland for joiners, plasterers, plumbers, slaters and so on there are more vacancies for workers than there are skilled men available. In those circumstances, is he suggesting that we should put a great deal more work in hand in Scotland?
  I would like to see all those concerned with school building making a real effort to reduce the actual construction time for the average school, from the day work starts on the site until it is completed.
  I turn now from teachers and building to the work that is being done in the schools. The most significant thing in the past year has been the decision to raise the leaving age. Last week I asked education authorities to take stock for their own areas of the situation which the raising of the leaving age will create—in terms of pupil numbers, accommodation, staffing and, perhaps most important of all, the kind and quality of education to be provided in the extra year. My officers will help Directors of Education with these problems in any way we can. And we shall, of course, also, at all times

  1589
  keep in touch with the teachers' associations in our forward planning. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Kilmarnock should not carry on conversations on the Front Bench. Apart from it being very rude, it is generally very stupid.
  One of the points I made to education authorities which attracted attention is that it will be open to authorities to decide whether to make provision for the extra year of full-time education in further education. We do not feel it is possible at this stage to lay down any general rules. This is very much something to be decided according to local circumstances—for instance the availability of facilities for vocational training in schools or in neighbouring further education centres. What we are really saying is that where an authority considers that a pupil could use the extra year more profitably either wholly or partly at a further education centre, then they should let him do so. It may be that our present statutory provisions do not cover adequately what we shall want to do. If that is so, we shall certainly consider amendments.
  We have already discussed some aspects of school work in the debate upstairs on the Brunton Report and I should like to say something today about developments in the primary schools and the senior secondary schools.
  While this major reassessment has been going on, the schools themselves have been showing great initiative in extending and broadening their teaching. Experimental work in science, mathematics and modern languages is taking place in more and more schools, and the idea of introducing these new subjects in the primary schools is now firmly established.
  Turning now to the senior secondary schools, we find that developments I mentioned last year have continued. The new syllabuses in physics and chemistry introduced in 1962 have now been adopted by almost all schools. This means that school science in future will provide a much sounder base for the pupil who is going on to study it in further education or at a university. And the pupil who is not going to be a scientist will see much more readily than before the relevance of the work he does in the school laboratory to everyday experience.
  Very much the same thing is now taking place in the teaching of mathematics. A committee of practising
  1590
  teachers and Inspectors of Schools have completed a revision of the syllabus which is being tried out in various schools. Here again the object is to take account of modern developments both in the content of mathematics and in its method of presentation, not merely for the benefit of the pupils who are eventually going to specialise but for the type of pupil who has hitherto regarded mathematics as a closed and alien book. I believe that this radical revision of the teaching of mathematics and science in our schools will be of great significance and will increase the number of mathematicians and scientists produced by the schools.
  Modern languages will be tackled next. Here again we are appointing a committee of teachers and Inspectors to draw up alternative syllabuses which will be tested in the first place in a group of schools. The object here will be to make language teaching less an exercise in grammar, syntax and literary appreciation, and more a basis for the speaking and understanding of the language.
  Television each year is playing a more important part in the classroom. The number of schools watching the broadcasts is now about 700.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: What is the proportion of 700 out of the total of the schools?
  Mr. Noble: I have not the figures here, but I will certainly get them and my noble Friend will give the answer. Glasgow is the first education authority in the United Kingdom to go ahead with the installation of a closed circuit system. All Scottish Members will, I know, join me in congratulating it on its enterprise and courage. I am giving it all the help I can.
  Mr. Dalyell: Will the noble Lady in winding up say something about the problem facing—
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir J. Duncan): I cannot have two hon. Members standing up together.
  Mr. Noble: I come next to further education, technical and commercial. Perhaps the commercial side—with its business courses, retail distribution and so on as well as accounting and secretarial work—is not so widely understood as the technical side.

  1591
  Many hon. Members will have seen for themselves the many new colleges which have recently been completed in Scotland, or which are now under construction. The numbers of both full-time and day-release students have been rising steadily by about 10 per cent. each year. I hope and believe that as the new places become available and as the opportunities are more widely understood, we shall go faster, because we still have a long way to go. The measures which are being taken by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour under the new industrial Training Act should do much in the next few years to ensure that the arrangements for the education and training of skilled workers match the growing needs of Scottish industry and commerce. In particular, I expect that day-release will increase much more rapidly as a result of the work of the Industrial Training Boards, some of which are holding their first meetings this week.
  To achieve this expansion, we must ensure that both teachers and buildings will be available. I am glad to say that the new arrangements, which were introduced a year ago, for training further education teachers by means of a combined pre-service and in-service course extending over a year, have proved very successful. I have now asked the Committee on Supply and Training of Further Education Teachers to consider what further provision should be made.
  I referred earlier to the building programme for further education. It will ensure not only that we can take in a much greater number of students than at present but that they will have facilities of a much higher standard than was previously available. Any hon. Member who has visited one of the new colleges will have heard that their attractiveness and equipment are far more effective than any other form of publicity in gaining support for technical and commercial education.
  The colleges now under construction or being planned will give us in a few years' time about double the present number of places for students. Indeed, some of the newly opened colleges, which were expected to meet local needs for some years ahead, are already under pressure, and plans are being made to relieve them. By and large, however,
  1592
  the provision of new accommodation has so far matched the increasing demand, and we shall try to maintain this position.
  Not only are new colleges opening but a great variety of new courses are being provided, both full-time and part-time. Many courses have been revised so as to provide ladders to the top at every level of skill. The Brunton Report drew attention to the need to give further information, both to industry and to the secondary schools, about the wide variety of courses now available. In about a week's time I am publishing a new Directory of Day Courses in Further Education which I hope will provide useful guidance for a great many young people in fitting themselves for their chosen career.
  I would like, finally, to take this opportunity to say a word about the criticisms that have been made from the Scottish point of view about the Ministerial arrangements for higher education. I recognise that it is vital to education in Scotland that there should be continuity between the schools and the various institutions of higher education, including the universities. In all matters of common interest closer working relationships must be developed. The argument may be that these things would be easier if I and my Department were directly concerned with the Scottish universities as well as the schools.
  If that were so, it would mean a division of responsibility for the universities. There seems to be general agreement with the Robbins Committee's view that the Grants Commission principle should be maintained—that we should not have a central Department dealing directly with each university. It follows that if we were to meet the critics and to separate the Scottish universities, we should have to have a special Grants Commission for Scotland, or, at any rate, the Grants Commission would have to advise me rather than the Secretary of State for Education and Science about the Scottish universities.
  The Scottish universities themselves, through their principals, made it very clear to us that they would view with concern any arrangement which involved their being dealt with separately from

  1593
  universities in England and Wales. They have close ties which they are anxious to preserve, and they greatly value their relationship with the present Grants Committee. It is difficult to believe that the best way of ensuring continuity between the schools and the universities would be to take a step which meant, for the universities themselves, the breaking up of established associations.
  Sir M. Galpern: Would their academic ties be broken?
  Mr. Noble: I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite like to take part in the debate by shouting out remarks while sitting down. I have been listening quite carefully to the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) and other hon. Gentlemen.
  The other alternative to what has been done would be to transfer the responsibility for Scottish schools to my right hon. and learned Friend as Secretary of State for Education and Science. I assume that no hon. Member would suggest that. If neither of these alternatives commends itself, there remains, I think, only the course we have in fact taken, which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister explained in his statement on 6th February and subsequently in his answer to the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire on 17th March. I am sure that we have adopted the best course in the circumstances. It would be quite wrong to think that the relationships between the universities and the schools can be strengthened only by Government, or, indeed, that this is the best way to strengthen them. We shall continue to help where we can, as we have been doing, and I see nothing in the new arrangements for Ministerial responsibility that need hinder these efforts.
  It must also not be forgotten that the function of a university is not simply to teach but to advance the frontier of knowledge by carrying out research. From this point of view, the arrangements for universities throughout Great Britain must be associated with the treatment of research in other areas, such as the Medical and Agricultural Research Councils. The development of civil science, both in the universities and elsewhere, must clearly be considered for
  1594
  Great Britain as a whole, and this is reflected in the present arrangements.
  There are other topics which I would like to have touched on, had there been time. I believe that we all recognise, on both sides of the Committee, the importance of education both for the national economy and for our way of life.
  Mr. Dalyell: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will give way on the question of a sixth university.
  Mr. Noble: I would like to commend the hon. Member on the fact that he at least stands up before he makes an intervention. My noble Friend heard, I am sure, his comment. It was exactly the same point as that made by the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North.
  We all know that we need more new buildings, more teachers, more teaching aids, more research, more courses and new teaching methods. Hon. Members will no doubt make many points of this kind in the debate, but if this is to be a constructive debate, then I think that we all have a duty to say not only what ought to be done but to indicate how it might be done.
  For example, as I said to the hon. Lady, I would welcome constructive ideas as to how the supply of trained teachers can be expanded even more rapidly or how it can be better deployed. Teaching will, we hope, take its full share of the increasing numbers of pupils leaving school and able to benefit from higher education. But any very rapid expansion would mean that we must somehow divert people—graduates or non-graduates—from some other fields of employment which are alternatives for them. We are, for example, acutely short of mathematics teachers. Do we want to divert people with a mathematical training from industry or from research or from university teaching in order to have more in the schools?
  Whatever we may say about policies and programmes, we really have to come down in the long run to the sheer human effort—in skill and labour—that is needed. It is easy to say, too, that we should spend more money, without, of course, saying whether there should be more on taxes or on the rates. But on education most of our

  1595
  expenditure goes, and is always likely to go, on salaries. It obviously makes no difference to the pattern of employment if everybody's salary goes up. If anybody argues that we should raise teachers' salaries, perhaps he will name the occupation—the competing occupation—whose salary is not to be raised. I have yet to hear anyone say what these occupations are.
  I am not for a moment arguing that nothing can be done to reduce the various shortages further. Much has already been done and a good deal more can be done on the same lines. As I said, I would welcome suggestions as to how we can use our resources better or increase them in these fields where, as so often, they are very scarce.
  I hope that the House will realise from what I have said just how much has been achieved in the last four years and how much promise there is today for the future in the developments which are now going forward.
  5.39 p.m.
  Mr. Harry Gourlay: The Committee has just listened to a most disappointing, discouraging and complacent speech from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland, which has failed to meet the challenge of education in Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman said that this was the annual stocktaking debate. All I can say is that the stocktaking so far has revealed the bare shelves of Tory policy in respect of Scottish education.
  The right hon. Gentleman also said that the pupil-teacher ratio of 24 pupils per teacher was the best so far. I propose to deal with this subject later on. However, the right hon. Gentleman made a contradiction in his speech, because earlier he said that the shortage of teachers in secondary schools and so on was not so much of teachers of mathematics out of teachers of the practical subjects. Then, towards the end of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman said that there was a shortage of mathematics teachers, and I think that all local education authorities will agree that that is their experience. He also made reference to the accusations of a stop-and-go policy, but that is exactly what has been happening
  1596
  in the last 13 years. I was a member of a local education authority before I came to this House. I can well recall, as many hon. Friends can, the various circulars which emanated from the Scottish Department telling us to go ahead with expansion and the modernising of old schools. Then, no sooner were the plans on paper than another circular would come telling us that we could not go ahead.
  I am pleased to see that the Prime Minister is again with us. He spent a few minutes in the Committee earlier this afternoon. I understand from the Press that he is to have a night out on his birthday at the Duchess Theatre to see his brother's play, "The Reluctant Peer". I hope that he will have some sympathy for the reluctant Ministers whom he leaves behind.
  When discussing the subject of education, one wonders—to use the modern jargon—whether the Government are really "with it". The difficulties on the educational scene have not suddenly emerged. They were foreseen by everyone but the Government for many years. This is despite the fact that there have never been so many committees and working parties advising the Secretary of State as there have been during the last few years. If the Government have excelled in anything, it must be in their high productivity rate in setting up advisory panels and committees and, not in producing schools or teachers.
  The Report on Education in Scotland, 1963, is of little improvement on the Report for 1961, which we debated two years ago. Lack of financial provision by the Government is largely at the root of the troubles in education. While we have the usual moaners about unnecessary frills in education, the Government blithely offer £4½ million too much to Ferranti. This is just chickenfeed compared with the hundreds of millions which the Government squandered on Blue Streak and other misguided missiles. After 13 years of Government mismanagement, we read in the Report that there are no fewer than 58 classes in Scottish primary schools with more than 50 pupils. That is ten more than last year.
  How can the Government claim that there is equality of opportunity with

  1597
  classes of that size? Although the number of those on the secondary school roll has fallen by 5,729 pupils in the last year, there are still 1,159 oversized classes in secondary schools. That figure is still far too high. It could have been brought down by vigorous action by the Government. It represents about 8 per cent. of all the classes in secondary schools. On reading this section of the Report one senses a degree of complacency in the Government about this distressing position which obtains after 13 years of Tory rule in this so-called affluent society. The Report in some parts certainly smacks of the Tory materialistic doctrine, "'I'm all right Jack'. I can afford to buy my children a good education, which should be the birthright of every Scottish child".
  What are the reasons for oversized classes'? Shortage of buildings is one, but shortage of qualified teachers is another. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) touched on that. So far the Government have played around with this question in their painfully weak attempts to find a solution. On 7th November, 1960, the previous Secretary of State, the former right hon. Member for Renfrew, West, said:
  "From what my right hon. Friend said in opening the debate and what I propose to say, it will be seen that the Government have an intense sense of urgency about the education programme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1960; Vol. 629, c. 773.]
  If the position we find ourselves in today is the result of three-and-a-half years intense urgency by the Government, I am certain that the majority of Scots will make sure in October that we shall be spared another term of weak, ineffective Tory rule.
  In dealing with the staffing crisis in secondary schools, the Government have failed to recognise the extreme urgency of the problem. How can education authorities expect to attract qualified people to teaching when teachers have to wait, 10, 12 and sometimes 14 years before reaching maximum salary? Earlier the right hon. Gentleman said that everyone seemed reasonably happy with salaries, although no one is ever content. It is this long waiting before getting to the maximum which is one of the difficulties in the situation. A little extra money, which I am sure the
  1598
  Government could well afford if they did not squander so much, could reduce the incremental period, particularly in faculties where there is a tremendous shortage of teachers. No wonder that graduates are attracted to industry where maximum salaries are paid much sooner, to say nothing of the perquisites attached to jobs, such as houses, cars and expense allowances.
  Another improvement which might induce more graduates to go into teaching would be effected by paying them something approaching a teacher's starting salary while in the teacher training college. It has been suggested that if grants of the standard given to the D.S.I.R. were awarded that would be an attraction. Once a person has decided to take up teaching, every possible encouragement should be given to him. He should not be dependent on a grant but should have payment in lieu of salary. That would attract many more to the training colleges. A more imaginative realistic course of training for graduates would assist in removing one of the niggling factors which militate against recruitment of graduates. Many people have criticised the waste of time and the methods which are used in the training colleges. All these things should be looked into.
  More retired teachers could be attracted back to the profession if, as was recommended by the Knox Committee, such teachers had full pay and pension. From an Answer I received to a Question I asked yesterday, I find that in 1961 284 retired teachers were in the schools and in 1963 that number had fallen to 219. It may be that the supply had diminished, but I am sure that if something could be done on the lines of the Knox Committee Report we would have a greater number coming back. Mathematics and science teachers are already in short supply, and almost 60 per cent. of them will be retiring between 1972 and 1976 at a time when the secondary departments will need them in even greater numbers with the raising of the school leaving age.
  The only reason which so far the Government have given for not accepting the recommendation for full pay and pension was that it conflicted with a fundamental principle. Paragraph 6 of the Report says:
  "Yet the Government themselves departed from this principle when it was necessary under

  1599
  conditions of crisis to augment the police force during war. We consider that the staffing crisis in the schools during the next few years will be sufficiently serious to justify a similar departure from the principle; indeed we suggest that the rejection of this recommendation would be evidence that the Government were not seized of the seriousness and urgency of the need for more teachers in Scotland … Furthermore we consider that the possibility of repercussions outside teaching cannot properly be made the basis of an argument against our recommendation; our recommendation is put forward in order to meet a crisis and where there is no crisis those who have retired would not be employed."
  Here is a damning indictment of the Government for not waiving this principle in times of crisis. There has been a crisis in teacher recruitment and there will be one for many years to come. Remember that the Report from which I have quoted was presented to the Secretary of State back in February 1959, but the Government have staggered on blindly hoping that some bright day when they waved their magic wand the teachers would suddenly appear. Or perhaps they do not care. Their record seems to suggest that that is the answer.
  If we are ever to be in a position to meet the increasing demand for teachers, we must increase the pool of educated manpower. This is another aspect of the problem with which the Government have failed to deal effectively. I return to the Knox Committee's Report. Paragraph 39 reads:
  "It is not only families with no strong tradition of higher education which demur at its cost today. The financial incentives, both direct and indirect, have become serious for certain sections of the population who have been traditionally willing to educate their children at considerable personal sacrifice. We suggest that the nation can no longer rely with certainly on a continuation of the self-sacrifice of these parents … This is a danger sign. Every disincentive to higher education should be removed."
  It is true that last year the Government increased the miserably low school bursaries when they thought that the election would be in October. But the new school bursaries now in operation are hopelessly inadequate, especially in the sixth year, where the maximum bursary is £100. When the same pupil in a matter of two months becomes a university student, he can qualify for a grant of £240 if he stays at home; if he takes lodgings he can qualify for a grant of £300; and if he lives in a university hall of residence, he will get £320,
  1600
  all these figures exclusive of fees. In addition, the student has certain other advantages, because with the long vacation he can often find employment to improve his financial position, whereas the sixth year pupil is not able to do so because of the shorter holiday period and is often denied the opportunity to supplement his meagre allowance. This often causes particular hardship for the families of widows and lower income group parents.
  Under this Prime Minister the Government have gone about saying, "We wish to modernise Britain". Let the Government set about modernising Britain in a practical way by removing this real grievance and thus increase the teacher potential. Circular No. 562 issued to local education authorities by the Scottish Education Department on 24th June refers to the need for 4,000 extra teachers in 1970 as a result of the raising of the school leaving age. In paragraph 6 we read:
  "… exceptional measures will be necessary to recruit these teachers. It is the Secretary of State's intention in the first instance to continue and develop the measures already being taken to increase recruitment and to encourage the return of married women to the teaching service."
  This paragraph highlights the Government's ineptitude, for their present methods of recruitment, which they say they intend to continue, have proved insufficient to meet the demands of the present. But we read in the same paragraph:
  "… but sustained effort will be needed on the part of all concerned—including education authorities, colleges of education and the teachers' associations—to secure an effective increase in the numbers engaged on full-time or part-time teaching service".
  What does this mean in practical terms? I say that it means nothing. It is pure, unadulterated, bureaucratic waffle. It is the platitudinous verbiage of a ham-fisted Government.
  I return once more to the question of the pupil-teacher ratio. On page 16 of the Report on education we read that
  "There were on the average 23·9 pupils per certificated teacher in the public and grant-aided schools during session 1962–63."
  The interesting sentence is the next:
  "The average is kept down by the large number of small classes in rural schools and in the later years of senior secondary courses".

  1601
  The Report would perhaps have been a little nearer the truth if it had stated that the inclusion of the direct-grant schools mentioned in the table on page 15 of the Report was a considerable factor in keeping the average down to 23·9. In the next Report perhaps we could have in the table on page 15 the respective figures for public schools, direct-grant schools and private or independent schools, as they are sometimes called. In addition to those figures, perhaps we can also have the financial aid per pupil stated, because at present the statistics in the Report very carefully mask the extent of Government support to direct-grant schools.
  On the last occasion that I received information from the right hon. Gentleman's Department I discovered that Dollar Academy had a ratio of 13 pupils per teacher and George Watson's in Edinburgh had a ratio of 10 pupils per teacher. There is no doubt, therefore, that if these figures were deleted from the table on page 15, the considerably higher ratio of pupils per teacher in local authority schools would be seen more clearly. It is a lot of poppycock to say that it is purely the small classes in rural areas and the top classes in the senior secondary schools which are helping to keep this figure down. It is the direct-grant schools, included in the table, which are largely responsible for this.
  I object strongly to the more favoured treatment given to the direct-grant schools in the form of financial assistance. Two years ago the Edinburgh Group of Merchant Schools received a grant equal to £72 per pupil. Dollar Academy received £76 per pupil. The local authority schools in Scotland received the miserable sum of £36 per pupil. Yet the direct-grant schools are regarded as charitable institutions and are thus relieved to some extent from paying their rates, too. With all this Government assistance these direct-grant schools are therefore in a very much better position to maintain the satisfactory pupil-teacher ratios which I have given. All this is at the expense and disadvantage of local authority schools.
  I turn to the question of school building. It was only last week that the noble Lady the Under-Secretary of State, answering one of the questions which had been put to her, said that she was proud to proclaim that on 31st March about £44·9 million of schoolbuilding was in
  1602
  progress. This was a considerable advance over £36 million at the end of December, 1963. Yet the Fife Education Authority had to make the strongest possible protests to the Secretary of State for Scotland only last December to be allowed to proceed with its school-building programme. Great play is continually made by the right hon. Gentleman that no local authorities are ever prevented from going ahead with their programme, but it was only after a deputation had been to see him in London and after considerable pressure that the Secretary of State relented and allowed them to proceed with the programme. One of the schools concerned was in Glenrothes, and because this new town is the brain-child of the Government they could not prevent the authority from proceeding with that building. We are entitled to know whether this was a deliberate hold-up of building of schools before March this year in order to provide the Tory Party with some election propaganda.
  In 1961 the Estimates Committee was investigating school building, and the Scottish Education Department on that occasion told the Committee that about 1,200 of the schools in Scotland were more than 80 years old. That was three years ago. I wonder how many of them have been closed in the interval. I also wonder whether the Secretary of State knows how many Scottish schools have outmoded lavatories outside the main buildings of the schools, where the lavatories are primitive and unheated and where there is no hot water available even in the main school buildings. How many schools are like that?
  No doubt many such schools received the leaflet which the right hon. Gentleman issued during the typhoid epidemic encouraging everyone to wash their hands. Therefore, it seems that the right hon. Gentleman has been lax in trying to prevent typhoid epidemics by not encouraging authorities to do away with insanitary conditions in Scottish schools. To my mind, it is a tremendous indictment of the Tory affluent society that it cannot even afford to modernise buildings at a time when there has been a sufficiency of labour and materials. They always hark back to 1945–51 when great difficulties were in the way of the Labour Government, but the Tories have no excuse for not dealing with this problem.

  1603
  In dealing with school building to meet the raising of the school leaving age in 1970, this famous Circular 562 says this in paragraph 9:
  "Allowance will be made in the building programmes in 1967–68 and subsequent years, if not before, for the additional accommodation shown to be available for the raising of the leaving age in 1970–71."
  Does this mean that authorities should be in a position to commence building in 1967, or just to submit plans in 19671 If it means the latter, it will be too late for the raising of the age in 1970, because it takes two years from the time the calculation of the size of the building is made until the first brick is laid. So I ask the Under-Secretary to clear up this point when she replies.
  There is an impression abroad in Scotland that not enough experimentation in education is being carried out by Scottish local authorities. I should, therefore, like to make a personal reference to some attempts which are being made to improve the present organisation in education. The promotion of children from primary to secondary education has been one of the pressing problems in recent years. There are the advocates for the abolition of the promotion test and the advocates for comprehensive schools. There are others who say that comprehensive schools would destroy the many excellent senior secondary schools which we have. This is the debate which took place in the Chamber last night—grammar schools versus comprehensive schools. I do not wish to enter into the aspect which was discussed last night, except to say that the allegation that the comprehensive school will destroy the grammar school is completely without foundation and certain authorities in Scotland have proved that this need not arise.
  The promotion difficulties in Fife have been well nigh eliminated by transferring all—I ask hon. Members to note the word "all"—primary school children in a given school area between the ages of 11 years and 9 months and 12 years and 3 months to a junior high school. At the end of two years in the junior high school, and without any special examination, all the pupils who can profit from the more academic type of course then transfer to the high school, while all those pupils remaining in the junior high school pro-
  1604
  ceed to "O" level courses or work-based courses, as desired.
  This method has the advantage of a more economical use of qualified teaching staff and a greater opportunity for the pupils. It has been most successful in eliminating the worst feature of the 11-plus examination—that is, the educational snobbery of the parents under the old system.
  Page 39 of the Report says this:
  "In April an experiment in closed circuit television using microwave transmission was carried out in Glasgow under the auspices of the Education Authority: the experiment underlined the potential value of developments in this field and showed that programmes of high technical quality could be transmitted in closed circuit."
  I was pleased that the right hon. Gentleman referred to this. I very much welcome this step forward which has been taken by Glasgow Education Committee. It should be noted that Kidbrooke Comprehensive School on the outskirts of London also has a closed circuit television system installed.
  Mr. Dalyell: Does my hon. Friend recognise that this is a very cheap form of educational investment and that the Kidbrooke costs are no more than £4,000?
  Mr. Gourlay: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention. The scheme in Fife cost much less; it cost £2,000, and, if I may say so, it is a much more efficient and economical system.
  Sir M. Galpern: Instead of listening to the praises being offered to English schools, some of my Scottish hon. Friends should concern themselves with Scottish schools. No closed circuit television educational scheme at £4,000 is worth the money spent on it. The city of Glasgow is spending no less than £25,000 so that we can get some educational return from what we consider to be a useful adjunct in the existing circumstances of teacher shortage.
  Mr. Gourlay: If my hon. Friend is making comparisons, he should compare like with like. The scheme envisaged in Glasgow is one which uses a multiplicity of schools. The closed circuit television systems applied in Kidbrooke and Queen Anne School, Dunfermline, deal with one department only and are much more effective.
  Mr. Dalyell: For the purpose of keeping the record accurate—
  Mr. John Rankin: On a point of order. May I suggest, Sir James, that each speaker be allowed to proceed with his speech so that others may have a chance?
  The Temporary Chairman: If an hon. Member who is speaking gives way, it is difficult for me to stop an interruption.
  Mr. Gourlay: I think that my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) was about to make the additional point that in the Kidbrooke experiment they are linked to a training college. Perhaps in next year's Report we might have a reference to the Fife experiment in closed circuit television, because it is somewhat different from the Kidbrooke and Glasgow experiments.
  They have installed a system in the Fife school of full pupil participation in the television lesson. The lesson is given in four class-rooms simultaneously, and any pupil can put a question to the teacher on the screen at any time without rising from his or her desk. All the children in the four classes hear the question, and obviously hear the answer. To my mind, this is a great advance on the more passive acceptance of information from the national network of schools television programmes, of which the Glasgow experiment is really an extension. Closed circuit television has the advantage of having the knowledge and experience of all the teachers in the department concerned pooled in the preparation of the television lesson, and this has proved to be an enormous improvement on normal teaching methods.
  Finally, I should like to refer to a teachers' re-education centre which has been set up and is proving to be extremely valuable. A course on the "New Outlook on Primary Education", which ran for one evening per week for ten weeks, was attended by no fewer than 500 Fife teachers. A new mathematics course, which was given in the same centre, attracted no fewer than 88 honours and ordinary graduates. This is an indication of the interest teachers have in education and shows that they are not merely concerned with the mercenary aspect—their salaries.
  1606
  This centre, I understand, was not exactly enthused over by the Scottish Education Department when it was first mooted, but I am sure that the Department now appreciates its value and I hope that it will encourage more such schools to be provided throughout Scotland as the frontiers of knowledge move quickly forward.
  I have been referring to some of the efforts of local authorities to show initiative in tackling the modern problems of education. The Government, however, have shown no indication that they regard the economic future of this country as being largely dependent on a first class education system, one which provides an education for every child suited to his age, ability and aptitude, and produces the maximum of highly educated manpower capable of holding its own with any nation in the world.
  The Government in the past thirteen years have, in my opinion and in the opinion of all my hon. Friends, lamentably failed to meet the challenge in education. I give notice to the Prime Minister that it is only the certain return of a Labour Government in the autumn which will obviate the necessity of some future author writing a book on the "Decline and Fall of Scottish Education under the Tories".
  6.10 p.m.
  Sir Colin Thornton-Kemsley: I wonder whether the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Mr. Gourlay) has really read the Report that we are debating? It is a document which is full of encouraging and exciting facts, a document of which all Scotsmen and Scotswomen may well be proud.
  I begin by taking up the two principal points made by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs. The first was the teacher training position and the second school building. The number of entrants into the profession is not un-encouraging. In 1961–62, there were 2,778 prospective teachers in training. By the following year, 3,147 had entered training and by 1963–64 the number had increased to 3,674, an increase of 60 per cent. in the last five years. Meanwhile, the total number of graduates entering training was nearly 40 per cent. higher than it was five years ago.

  1607
  Hon. Members opposite have produced two proposals for dealing with teacher shortage. Each differs in substance materially from what the Government are doing. The first was their ill-fated proposal for half day schooling for five year olds. The Labour Party Study Group, presided over by the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Grossman), produced that idea on 8th May of this year, but it was torpedoed by the party five days later, and sunk without trace.
  The second proposal they have produced—and this, too, was probably originated by the hon. Member for Coventry, East, with whom I do not often agree in these matters but with whom, in this case, I feel some sympathy—is that graduates who have benefited from State expenditure for their schooling and university education might make some return by devoting one year, either before or after graduation, to teaching.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, East wrote about that idea in The Guardian on 31st May, 1963, when he described it as a "really creative idea" by which graduates should be obliged to undertake a quite new form of what he called "peaceful national service". My hon. Friends and I are always ready to look at good ideas, from whatever source they come, and I urge my right hon. Friend to have a look at this one. It is worth looking at to see to what extent it is administratively practicable.
  I have said that the Report we are debating contains some exciting points. There are many of them, but time permits me to mention only a few which particularly appeal to me. The first is about school meals and milk. It is interesting to note that about 40 per cent. of children in Scottish State schools—
  Mr. Ross: To take the hon. Member back to the question of teacher training, was he saying that every graduate should go right into our schools, even without training?
  Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: The hon. Member had better ask his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East about that. He has suggested that graduates who have benefited from State scholarships and who have gone through State-aided schools, up to universities, might
  1608
  give some return to the State for the benefits they have received from the State; and that that might be in the form of devoting a year to helping out in our schools. I said that it did not seem a bad idea. I am rather inclined to agree with the hon. Member for Coventry, East on this occasion and I have suggested that my right hon. Friend might look into it.
  Miss Herbison: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of the difference between the qualifications for teachers in Scotland and those in England? He referred to graduates helping out in schools either a year before or after graduation. Does he realise that in Scotland, at least for men, they must all be graduates and all be trained?
  Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: In that case let us get them a year after graduation in Scotland. I merely said that it seemed an idea worth looking at.
  We must all be encouraged to find that about 40 per cent. of the children in Scottish schools now take mid-day meals in school, while nearly 90 per cent. take school milk. Another fact one gleans from the Report is that the provision of kitchens is now sufficient to provide meals for 54 per cent. of the number of children on the school rolls.
  I asked a Question of my right hon. Friend the other day about children staying longer at school after the age of 15. It has been encouraging to learn that as recently as 15th January this year 66,000 children aged 15 and over were in our schools, and that, of these, 12,400 were 17 and over, twice as many as in the corresponding period 10 years ago.
  I turn to the second principal point discussed by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs, school building. This is increasing and while at 31st December, 1963, £36·2 million was being spent on it, in the same period this year £44·9 million was being devoted to school buildings. That is a good thing, and I recall, among other of my hon. Friends, my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) reminding hon. Members in a debate we had on this subject a year ago that about half our children in Scotland are now studying in virtually new schools.
  However, during the next 20 years the load on the building industry generally

  1609
  —and I speak about Great Britain as a whole because I do not have separate figures for Scotland—is likely to increase by 60 per cent., whereas the labour force will increase by only 6 per cent. It follows that if we are to fulfil our commitments in Scotland—in slum clearance and rehousing, hospitals, university expansion, along with the building of schools—industrial building techniques will have to be introduced on a wide scale.
  On previous occasions we have spoken about an organisation known as C.L.A.S.P., which is derived from the initials of the Consortium of Local Authorities Special Programme. C.L.A.S.P., basically by the use of simplified foundations for buildings and standard parts, has enabled savings to be made of up to 30 per cent. in time and about 8 per cent. in terms of better value for money. Before an organisation can join C.L.A.S.P. as a full member it must commit itself to an annual C.L.A.S.P. programme exceeding £250,000. Some larger authorities, such as Glasgow and Lanarkshire, have been able to commit themselves to that and are full members of the organisation, but a programme of this order is beyond the power of many smaller authorities.
  Would it not be possible for the Scottish Education Department to form an association of local education authorities which could itself join C.L.A.S.P., and thus reap the benefits of pooled resources and quantity production which membership of that body makes possible? In a Scottish Estimates debate a year ago, my right hon. Friend said that he was studying industrialised building, and I should like my noble Friend the Under-Secretary to tell us what progress has been made, and what prospect there is of doing something on the lines that I have suggested.
  As I know that a number of hon. Members want to take part in the debate I purposely jettison several points, but I want to finish on what is, perhaps, a note of warning. We are holding this debate almost, as it were, under the shadow of a General Election, and I cannot close in the debate on Scottish education without some reference to the threat to independent schools which is contained in the Labour Party document "Signposts for the Sixties". Hon. and right hon. Mem-
  1610
  bers opposite want to integrate what in England is called the public school into a State system. They propose to set up in England and Wales an "educational trust", to consult the schools and advise the Administration how this integration should be done. By contrast, "Signposts for Scotland" states baldly that the educational privilege of fee-paying schools will be ended. There is no nonsense here about prior consultation—no eye-wash about educational trusts. Fee-paying schools in Scotland are to be ended—and that is that.
  I doubt whether even the Scottish Labour Party has ever committed itself to a more damaging proposal. Schools like Fettes and Loretto, Glenalmond and Gordonstoun—or, for girls, St. Leonards and St. Bride's—have made a great and distinctive contribution to the character of our Scottish people. Entry to these schools is far from exclusive; their doors are open wide to ability and promise. To seek to extend the scope of entry by scholarship and by bursary would be understandable, but Socialist proposals go far beyond that. Scottish electors would do well to heed the warning that has been given in this regard.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I am afraid that the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) does not quite understand the difference between fee-paying schools and the independent schools of which he spoke. In Scotland, there are a few—a very few now—public local authority schools which charge fees. They give privileges for those fees although, for the most part, they are maintained by the public funds. These are entirely different from what the hon. Gentleman calls the independent schools—Fettes, Loretto and the others—which will be dealt with all over the country in the way he has indicated.
  It is right that we should congratulate the Prime Minister on what we regard as his happy day. It is the first birthday that he has ever passed as Prime Minister, and it may be the last. He will understand, of course, that in this year we cannot wish him many happy returns in one sense—we hope that it will be a Labour return in October and not many happy returns for the Prime Minister.

  1611
  Personally, however, we wish him every good fortune in those years ahead. I would remind him that Bernard Baruch has said that a person who is old is someone who is 10 years older than oneself, so we can always take comfort and hope from that.
  We sometimes get so immersed in figures that we forget that the problem is to see that Scottish children receive a proper education. Sometimes, when teachers who give devoted service—some of them live for their work—discuss these matters, they become quite immersed in their own conditions and problems and forget about the problem of the public and children. It is the business of everyone to solve the problem of providing teachers so as to give every child a full education. Suggestions and proposals so far made will not solve this problem, because we are told that we will still be some thousands of teachers short in 1970. The numbers of children are growing faster than the number of teachers capable of dealing with them.
  As I have said before, whenever there is a shortage of labour in any other walk of life the solution is found in improved machinery and methods. All over the place we see new methods being used to overcome labour shortages—what is being done in the banks, for example, and elsewhere, is quite remarkable. Machinery is taking away the drudgery of labour even in the home. The only place where progress seems slow is in education.
  I was horrified the other night to hear some university students, discussing their professors, speaking of there being 60, 70 or 80 students in a university class for a whole hour, and not understanding a word the professor said because he talked in such a fashion that he could not be heard. To have this in the modern age is scandalous. I know many professors, and I am sure that they make every word clear, distinct and intelligible, but it is just nonsense and a sheer waste of time to have students listening to professors whom they cannot hear. I understand that in the old days they had to buy the notes of previous students to find out what the lectures were about. If that is happening, it is not modern education—we are living in the age of the Ark.
  1612
  None of the plans I have heard of is likely to remedy the shortage of teachers, and for some time ahead—perhaps for ever—there will not be enough qualified teachers for the work we would have them do. Machines are being adopted. It is five or six years since I first raised the question of television in the schools, and today we are told that there are now about 700 of these sets. On the other hand, there are 3,200 schools in Scotland. I was very happy to learn of the Glasgow development. I discussed the matter with E.I.S. representatives, who argued that we could not do without the individual teacher and the personal work of the teacher, yet within three or four months of our discussion we hear of this system being adopted there to make up for the shortage of teachers.
  We were all interested to learn from my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Mr. Gourlay) of the Fife experiment. I have been in touch with the Minister of Education and know of experiments in England. A great deal of work has been done in America, and in some backward countries, where there are no teachers at all, the children in the outlying villages in the mountain areas are supplied with television sets and taught from a centre.
  I repeat that there is something which television can do that no teacher can do. I have seen and heard wonderful leotures on the B.B.C. television programmes. The other day a man lecturing on the eye gave a whole lifetime of experience in the space of one hour. No general teacher could do that because he cannot devote a lifetime to preparing for a lecture. On television all the resources of a man's life are freely available to millions of people. I have suggested previously that these programmes ought not to be wasted on the desert air. Once these lectures are given they disappear forever. They should be recorded on film and be made available to schools and to institutions for further education for use by teachers to help them with their work.
  The B.B.C. approached me on this matter, but I was told that it was not the Corporation's business to arrange this. Its business was to produce television programmes, though representatives of the Corporation agreed that this

  1613
  ought to be done and that films should be made available. They said that it was up to the education authorities to get in touch with the B.B.C. and take these facilities from the Corporation and make them available to the schools. They agreed with me that the Film Library in Glasgow was doing wonderful work with still films, which are so valuable for educational purposes, and they said it ought not to be beyond the power of the Education Department to put these lectures on permanent record so that they could be made available to the schools when they were needed.
  One of the disadvantages of broadcasts to schools is that they may not be broadcast at a time when the teacher needs that particular lesson. If the broadcast were filmed it could be transmitted on closed circuit so that the schools could use these lessons when they wanted them. This would be much more economical than spending £4,000 to £5,000 on an hour's broadcast. This applies to medical schools, universities and ordinary schools.
  A great many people still insist on teaching by methods which were invented in the time of John Knox. We need to bring ourselves up to date and to use modern methods. I hope that the noble Lady the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will give us some information about what is done in training colleges, because encouragement to people to use new methods should start there.
  A great deal is heard about the conservatism of people in schools, and, whatever we may claim, no Government can secure reforms in schools without tremendous persistence and hard work. I knew of a case where a young teacher was taught to use the latest methods, but when she went to a school in an outlying district the headmaster said, "Forget all that nonsense you were taught at Moray House. This is how we do it here." I hope that a great deal more effort is made to see that television is made available in schools and to see that everybody has a chance of using it.
  Are we falling down in the quality of education? I occasionally look at the Daily Mail and read articles by the Earl of Arran. I understand that this is a popular form of literature among younger people today, but if that is
  1614
  the standard of education reached by these people, heaven knows what happened to them when they were pupils. It is terrible to think that this is the standard that we produce and that people can enjoy that kind of writing. On the other hand, I am encouraged when I hear "Top of the Form" and other discussions on television to find children as bright as ever they were, and probably much more sophisticated and educated than they were in the past. They put on a splended performance. Every day and night we have examples of the vitality and great capacity of youth to tackle their own problems.
  There is need to defend youth today. We find the papers portraying youth as a lot of child horrors and we get exaggeration of incidents at Clacton and Brighton. I understand that at Brighton the maximum amount of physical damage to any person was that a lady was pushed aside in a café, and there was £40 of material damage. I saw in a university building watchmen's lanterns, the tops of lamp standards and policemen's helmets kept as trophies. This was supposed to be bright, youthful larking, but if it happens in Clacton it is the work of child horrors and juvenile delinquents. I was glad to hear an hon. Member say recently that he was a juvenile delinquent in his day. If everybody was honest we would all admit to this too.
  There is a great deal of exaggeration today and a great need to defend youth. The fact is that there are more children at evening classes any night than there are in dance halls. Many more young people are studying in further education, and there has been a steady increase in the number of children taking evening classes after they have left school. There has been an increase of 25 per cent. in this respect among those aged between 17 and 18. Young people are learning with great keenness and enthusiasm in the apprentice schools to train themselves for their future jobs. I could say a good deal also about the morals of young people. Statistics show that there is a great deal of exaggeration on the subject. All that is really happening is that what was done in secret before is done more openly now, and there is probably not much change in morals.
  The Scottish Council for Physical Education shows in its Report that

  1615
  children develop their bodies healthily. They are keen to develop their physique and to achieve success in sport. The achievements of Scottish youth in swimming are remarkable, and generally in various sporting activities the youth of today take a healthy interest in life. We should stop slandering them and should give them every encouragement to go on. The youth of today are not decadent. If there is failure in what comes out of the schools that failure is not in the youth, it is in ourselves. We let the job down.
  As I have said, a great deal could be done to improve methods of education. Many of the methods employed today are those of the days of John Knox where pupils are seated at a desk and preached at for hours. It is contrary to nature to keep physically fit youngsters tied to their desks for hours on end. Their energy will out, and unless education provides a way of getting it out in a healthy manner it will come out in an unhealthy way.
  We have solved the problem in the nursery schools, and I am sorry that we have not built an adequate number of new nursery schools. However, I am glad to see from the Report that Edinburgh and other authorities are improvising nursery schools. If we could introduce something on the lines of the Montessori system to the later stages of education I think we would solve this problem of the 14 to 15-year-olds who get bored stiff when they are kept sitting still, as it were, in a prison. Some schools have made a remarkable advance towards solving the problem, but I think the education authorities and the Government must take the problem in hand and interest the children in education so that they keep at it without the urge to find outlets for showing off in other directions.
  This is one satisfactory aspect of the continuation classes, but it is not everybody who is a bookworm. Some people are more physically active. After all, there is education to be gained from doing things. We abolished the exploitation of children, but there is a great deal to be said for the idea that there should be a greater combination of work and education. Many of us did not realise the value of education until we had left it
  1616
  behind. When we went out into the world we began to realise that it would have been worthwhile having a great deal more education.
  It may be that the ideas which I have suggested will not be in time to meet this terrible shortage of teachers. I hope that Glasgow's experiment is successful. Nevertheless, I would rather have a class of 60 pupils than see children not being taught at all. If children have to be sent home from school and miss lessons, the effect will be disastrous. After all, there are people who years ago were taught in classes of 60 and who managed to learn grammar and a few other things. I am certainly in favour of keeping the sizes of classes down, but if that is not possible I would rather they were large than see children not being taught at all.
  When children leave school and go out to work there must be more and more opportunities for education. The day release scheme must be developed, and it is far better if this is done as part of the job. The colleges which we have erected, like Napier College and the college in Falkirk, are a great step forward in the provision of technical and further education as a whole. Whatever Government have to finish the job, I wish them well because it will not be an easy task to tackle.
  6.43 p.m.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: In a debate on a subject such as this it is extremely difficult to be selective. However, before making my few comments I should like to refer to the speech of the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) and to say how much I agree with his compliment to youth.
  We often make the mistake of forgetting that it is, roughly speaking, 98 per cent. of the youth of the country of whom we should be proud and something like 2 per cent. of whom we should be rather more dubious. We should certainly take the opportunity of complimenting the 98 per cent. for the contribution which they make and which I am convinced they will continue to make, probably rather better than we do.
  The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire referred to the shortage of teachers and said that he thinks there will never be a sufficient number of qualified teachers. The hon. Member for

  1617
  Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) omitted to mention that I wrote a minority Report on the Knox Committee's recommendations, in which I recommended something which was considered to be a suggestion of dilution towards the profession. I can assure hon. Members that I had no intention of suggesting dilution to the profession.
  I made the recommendatoin for reasons which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave when he pointed out that many of the 3,000 teaching vacancies in schools today are in secondary schools and that many of those secondary school vacancies are in the field of art, music and home work. It was in this sphere that I believed—and nobody has convinced me to the contrary—that it was possible to recruit along the lines which I recommended in the minority Report to the Knox Committee.
  It has been stated that I have said before—which is true—that half the children in Scotland today are being taught in new schools. If half our children are enjoying the privilege of being taught in new schools, there must have been considerable progress in school building. I am not one of those who are concerned about the rate of school building. I think that we have done great things. The fact that half our children are enjoying the result of this progress should be a matter for congratulation of the Government. I also believe that the numbers staying on at school is a matter for congratulation. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North would not accept my point that the question of staying on at school is not merely one of deciding whether a certain amount of money is a suitable bursary. I do not think that she would expect a school bursary to be raised to a level which could in any way be comparable to the amount of money which these young people could earn.
  Miss Herbison: I did not say that.
  Miss Harvie Anderson: I am glad to hear the hon. Lady say so, but that was the impression she gave me.
  The point which I should particularly like to raise today is one which is perhaps more relevant to my constituency and is very important in the context of the industrial development of Scotland.
  1618
  Reference has been made to the question of overspill and the educational problems that it raises. I hope that my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State will take note of what I am saying, not in a spirit of criticism of what has gone wrong in my area but because I think that there is a lesson to be learned from it.
  Linwood is perhaps one of the greatest developments that we have had in Scotland. It has also presented the education authorities with one of their greatest challenges. It was estimated that about 2,000 houses would be built at Linwood and that, as a result, there would be an additional school population of 7,500 children. It would be wise to remember that 7,500 children represent rather more children than there are in one-third of the educational areas of Scotland. We are, therefore, dealing with a very special problem comparable in size to the total problem in certain more sparsely populated areas.
  This problem of overspill should be studied closely. It relates not only to those areas where there is actual overspill, but also to all those areas of expansion, including London and the South-East. I think that it is true to say that three extra primary schools and two extra secondary schools were required in Linwood to absorb the growing population. These schools should have been built far earlier in the general scheme of things. The lesson to be learned is that we should revise our priorities for building wherever great industrial development takes place.
  As well as the schools in Linwood itself, one primary school and one secondary school were required in Barrhead and a further five schools were required in Johnstone. These, of course, are connected with the same development. In terms of staffing, great problems have been created. As I see it, there should be a programme of school building which would put schools on the site ready for use at the same time as houses were placed on the site for occupation.
  We are now mid-way through 1964, and we have not caught up with the programme in the Linwood area which was envisaged for 1962. The lesson to be learned from this is that we started too late. Two years is too short a time to make adequate development to meet the situation.

  1619
  I want no one to imagine that the Rootes factory is unwelcome in the area. Far from it. We welcome all developments like this in Scotland. Since the plant started, 85,000 motor cars—"Imps"—have been made at Linwood. We want the work to go on and we are very happy to realise that in Scotland we have the plant which makes this motor car and will continue to make it there. There is no other comparable plant in the world.
  However, as we provide for the social services behind such great industrial development, education must obviously be foremost in our minds in dealing with a community which has grown very rapidly, which is continuing to grow, and which will enjoy in the foreseeable future the benefits of what has been established at Linwood.
  Is there not a case for a completely new approach to school building in areas of this kind? In my view, such a new approach would apply not only to the developing centre of Scotland but to all the development areas of England, including the South-East. Should we not consider forming some sort of consortium, following the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley)?
  What I have in mind is something on the lines of the Scottish Special Housing Association. Such a body could take these difficulties out of the hands of the hard-pressed local authorities. It will also put the finances on a different and more satisfactory footing. It seems to me, also, that my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State might find it easier to command such an organisation than she has found it to handle the various local authorities, with their differing interests, under the present system.
  Such a scheme would alleviate the financial difficulties of the counties concerned. As hon. Members opposite have said, where there is an allocation and, in the same area, there is a heavy overspill problem, the allocation for the area does not take fully into account the effect of overspill. If we are to take our overspill, we should take our resources from a central authority, not
  1620
  from the allocation of the county concerned.
  To help in teacher supply, it might be easier if conditions for teaching were more acceptable than they were in Linwood at the start of the project. It is difficult to expect teachers to come into a new area, where there is no community spirit, and mould together children from different places who do not even know one another, unless they can do it in reasonably modern and attractive conditions. This is another aspect of the problem which should be tackled far more in advance than was done in the case of Linwood.
  I do not wish to detain the Committee, but there are several other points which are much in the minds of people interested in education. First, I refer to the rising success rate in examinations in Scotland.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: Before the hon. Lady goes on, may I raise a question on her last proposition, which I found most attractive? Does she suggest that there should be a sort of Scottish Special Education Association which would undertake direct building and which would be provided for by the Treasury through the Scottish Office?
  Miss Harvie Anderson: Yes, that is, broadly, my proposition. It would enable the Scottish Office to use—I hesitate to call them such, but I can think of no better term—prefabricated schools of varying design to meet the various needs. Such schools could be put up quickly at moderate cost—again, I have in mind what was said on this point by my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns—and they could be of the same design for the same type of area, wherever appropriate.
  The tables on pages 120 to 124 of the Report on Education in Scotland show very encouraging examination results, but I wish to draw attention to the disappointing use made by girls of their successes in qualifying. The findings of the working party of the Association of Headmistresses—I realise that it concentrated on a restricted number of girls—show that of the girls who gained five O levels in the G.C.E. 80 per cent. received no more education, and that of the girls who gained two A levels 33 per cent. received no more education.

  1621
  The comparable figures for boys were 39 per cent. and 1 per cent. receiving no more education. Here is a huge reserve of educationally qualified manpower, quite unused.
  There is good ground for the view either that the curricula are wrong in some respects or that girls are not encouraged in mathematics and science. In an article in the Sunday Telegraph of 28th June, there was a remarkable statement about the lack of girl scientists at Oxford. Presumably Oxford has the pick of the girl scientists of the country. If the existing places cannot be filled, this suggests either that girls are not being diverted into this stream of endeavour, or that teachers are not encouraging girls to go into a field where, according to the article, there is known opportunity.
  If we could provide greater flexibility in the curricula and facilitate the possibility of transfer, the situation might be improved. I do not believe—I am sure that constituency correspondence generally bears this out—that it is easy for a child to change from one type of curriculum to another. Nor do I believe that it is sufficiently easy for a child to be transferred from one type of school to another. I shall not weary the Committee by developing this point, but I believe that it is one of the most important of all and it should be gone into much more thoroughly than I have time to do today.
  I am sure that the late developers do not get their full chance and that parents would be infinitely happier if they could feel that there was a wider second chance than there is under our present system. I know that many experiments are going on at present, and I hope that my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State will refer to some of them, but I feel that here again we waste a great potential.
  My greatest fear about raising the school-leaving age, and perhaps raising it so quickly, is the most significant tribute to the work which the Government have done in education over the past 10 years. Unless this opportunity is matched by the programme that is offered to those who remain for the extra year, we shall not give young people the full benefit of that opportunity. There was strong criticism over two or three years that the last raising of the school-leaving age was a complete waste and that children got bored because they had to
  1622
  repeat what they had done in the previous year. In my view, they were not taken out into the world and shown enough of the world which they were about to enter.
  I hope that a bold and imaginative plan for the new final year is being devised now, because only by a really significant final year will the wonderful work which is being done to bring about this raising of the school-leaving age give young people the full benefit of this step forward.
  7.3 p.m.
  Sir Myer Galpern: I listened very attentively to the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland which, in my opinion, was delivered with a wholly unjustifiable smugness and complacency. While listening to him, I was attempting to assess what effect a speech such as that which he made would have had upon a Glasgow audience. I should like to organise a great demonstration of Glasgow parents, irrespective of political allegiances, and invite the Secretary of State to it to deliver the speech which he delivered this afternoon. I am satisfied that if he gave the opportunity for asking questions he would leave the meeting a very much disillusioned individual.
  It is all very well to bandy about in the House of Commons percentages and ratios of teachers to pupils and to talk about the number of additional teachers who have come into the profession. What that audience would ask the Secretary of State would be this: "Can you tell us why we have in the east end of Glasgow 5,000 children in primary schools receiving part-time education for a large number of months?" That is the sort of question which the right hon. Gentleman would be asked. This is how we see our educational problem. Glasgow people are not interested in the fact that the average number of pupils per teacher is 23·4. They know quite well that there is not a school in Glasgow where that average applies. It is no good talking about these fantastic and anaesthetising figures. It will not work. We are concerned with the practical problem as we see it in a large city like Glasgow, which is providing education for a quarter of the children in Scotland.
  I welcome the tribute which the Secretary of State paid to the education

  1623
  authority in Glasgow and to the director of education and his band of deputies for the excellent work that they are doing because I do not think that in Scotland or, for that matter, in Great Britain could there be a more dedicated and more enlightened band of people. But, despite that enlightenment and all the methods of ancillary education, such as television, and the inducements which teachers are offered, we are not able to solve the problem of the teacher shortage and the large number of pupils in our classrooms.
  Let me remind the Secretary of State of the teaching position in Glasgow. In 1958, we had 6,769 certificated teachers and 128 uncertificated teachers. The number of certificated teachers required to fill our vacancies in 1958 was 941. The deficiency percentage was 12·4. In 1962, we had a smaller number of certificated teachers—6,729—but the number of uncertificated teachers had doubled to 254. The number of certificated teachers required to fill the vacancies had risen from 941 to 1,328 and the percentage deficiency had increased from 12·4 to 16·7. This is the position in Glasgow from a practical angle.
  We have spent a lot of time, rightly, this afternoon on the acute and continuing shortage of teachers. I reject the finding of the appointments board that students are not interested in salary scales, because later it contradicts itself by saying that the lack of opportunity for promotion keeps them away from the teaching profession. What else does promotion mean but an increase in salary? I doubt very much whether we would recruit any traffic wardens from London under the special recruitment scheme, because they start with a higher salary than a male graduate in the teaching profession. Surely no one can justify a commencing salary for a male graduate under Chapter IV of £730. That is less than a traffic warden in the City of London gets.
  I am glad that the Minister of State for Education and Science is listening. We are in difficulties in Scotland vis-à-vis the situation in England. In England, a male teacher does not require to be three-year trained. Up to a year or so ago he did only two years' training. All these are factors which militate
  1624
  against us paying a reasonable salary. It is a statutory requirement in Scotland that every male teacher must be a graduate. To fix a starting salary such as the one which I have just mentioned is wholly unrealistic if we hope to attract more males into our primary schools, which is where we need them. One reason why we are not getting graduates coming into our teaching profession in competition with industry and commerce is the lowness of the salary.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland invited us to make suggestions. I thought of the suggestion box which one finds in some factories and commercial undertakings. If a suggestion picked out of the box would not cost much money, it is adopted, but if it would cost a lot of money it is rejected and thrown in the wastepaper basket.
  It is a nice pre-election technique to invite the Opposition to give the Government suggestions—at least there is only one hon. Member present on the Government side to do it. The right hon. Gentleman has, I suppose, invited suggestions from any quarter of the Committee. There is no need to invite suggestions from us at this late hour about how to get additional teachers. You have had any number of Committees, which have given any amount of advice, which you have rejected.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Robert Grimston): Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but I wish that he would remember to address the Chair.
  Sir M. Galpern: I am sorry, Sir Robert.
  I will remind the Secretary of State of one suggestion which has been mentioned here frequently today—the recommendation of the Knox Committee regarding teachers who have retired. We were told that the Secretary of State was quite willing to provide nursery classes to look after the children of married women who returned to teaching. Surely, that would cost money to put into effect. Why, then, reject the scheme proposed by the Knox Committee, which would give the people their salaries and their pensions at the same time? This proposal must have been before our educational leaders time

  1625
  and time again as a ready-made method of at least retaining some people who have experience.
  I mentioned the Glasgow figure for a specific purpose because of what I consider to be—I say it in a friendly way—the cowardly action of the Secretary of State in running away from the recommendation which he himself was prepared to put forward, that in view of the difficulties of the staffing situation in the City of Glasgow he was prepared to accept the recommendation of the National Joint Council that £50 be awarded as a special allowance to those serving in the city.
  Fifty pounds was the sum that was paid to teachers in Glasgow way back in 1932. If we were realistic, and if £50 was merited in those days, we would say that, at the least, the figure should be £250. Having accepted that recommendation, however, the Secretary of State for Scotland ran away from it as soon as other authorities complained that it might result in a drain upon their teaching service. I would not complain about the drain; Glasgow has enough to complain about. If we study the figures under the voluntary recruitment scheme, we find that there has been a progressive decline in the number of teachers which Glasgow has attracted from among those who leave the colleges of education. Surely, by virtue of the small numbers coming into its service, Glasgow has established that she is entitled to a weighting allowance to induce people to come her way and into her service.
  For the very reasons that the hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) indicated, we have special problems, just as the hon. Lady has in Linwood, affecting our teachers—for example, the distances which they have to travel and the considerable slum-clearance problem which the local authority is not permitted to carry out. In Glasgow we still have to pay £¼ million in transporting pupils to old slum schools because we do not yet have permission from the Scottish Education Department to erect new schools for them, as the hon. Lady has asked should be done for part of her constituency at Linwood.
  Therefore, we in Glasgow feel that despite the subsequent finding of the
  1626
  National Joint Council, the Secretary of State should have stuck to his guns and not watered down his proposal to something which seems stupid. Whoever else would have thought of setting teachers in one school against teachers in another, or teachers in the same school against each other, by being prepared to award £50 to teachers in one classroom but denying it to others? This was the most stupid thing; that anybody could devise. I would have resolutely opposed such a scheme which distinguished between one school and another and between one teacher and another in a school in Glasgow.
  The final decision rests with the Secretary of State. He should have had the courage to say that he would recognise these difficulties and, despite the recommendation of the National Joint Council and the fact that a working committee has been set up to examine the situation, to say, as the teachers in Glasgow expect him to say, that he will accept the recommendation and give them something for the not inconsiderable difficulties confronting them in the city vis-à-vis other parts of the country. The Secretary of State knows quite well that already there are discriminatory and additional payments in areas where it is difficult to get teachers.
  My next point concerns the niggardly contribution made by the Scottish Education Department towards adult education. If the children are suffering as they are in Glasgow and, I presume, elsewhere from inefficiency due to teacher shortage and part-time education in their formal years of instruction at school, we should compensate them somehow by providing them with adequate facilities when they grow up if they desire adult education. I was amazed when I learned from a Written Answer that the amount which was contributed last year by the Scottish Education Department to adult education in Scotland was the miserable sum of £13,000 out of a total expenditure in Scotland of £65,000. When we think of Newbattle Abbey and the valuable work that is being done there, and the great shortage of funds which it suffers in wanting to expand and develop as it urgently needs to do, one hopes that the Secretary of State for Scotland will look again at the contribution from

  1627
  the Scottish Education Department to adult education.
  I subscribe wholeheartedly to the view expressed by the hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East in referring to the type of curriculum which we should be thinking of for the pupil who is to remain at school for an additional year from 1970 onwards. I agree that one of the greatest challenges to our educational system over the past two decades concerns the curriculum provided for the junior secondary school. I confess that we have not mastered that problem. Even with the working parties and the co-operation of teachers, directors of education and people from the Scottish Education Department, we have not so far been able to devise a curriculum which would wholly induce pupils from 14 to 15 years of age in our junior secondary schools to feel that they are benefiting from that year's education.
  Therefore, having some knowledge of what we have been able to provide and to achieve in residential school accommodation, I suggest that we should conduct a pilot experiment in residential education for pupils in their final year's school from the age of 14 to 15. We could not do it for everyone, because, unfortunately, two out of three of our pupils in Scotland are in the junior secondary school category. We could then see how the scheme developed later at the ages of 15 and 16. Let the pupils go there for 12 months at least.
  In Glasgow we have done remarkable work with short-term residential education. The teachers praise the system. They tell us that in the residential period at school they are able to recognise facets in a pupil which would never have been detected had the pupil been sitting at a desk for as long as 20 years.
  Related to the great need of an educated democracy, upon which the prosperity and future of Scotland depends, we should try to instil into pupils in that type of education in their final year at school a spirit of communal understand and an ability to live with each other and to stimulate in them an interest in other than the formal type of education which they receive in the classroom, not wholly abandoning it but bringing them into contact with their fellow beings for, say, a year's residential education.
  1628
  I feel certain that a scheme along the lines of that final year in a residential school would be the answer to the problem of junior secondary education which has eluded us so far. One would like to see a pilot scheme started now. Even with a pilot scheme going, a working party could be set up to ascertain how far it would be feasible, practicable and desirable for such a scheme to be rapidly expanded to cover the whole of the Scottish school population for that final year.
  7.20 p.m.
  Sir John Gilmour: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern) was no doubt right when he began to pose the difficulties of Glasgow and his part of the world, but he was less than fair to the Secretary of State in trying to suggest that they were common to education in Scotland. I am certain that the fact that there are difficulties and black spots points to the success achieved in certain fields, but it certainly highlights the fact that there is further work to be done.
  I was more in accord with the hon. Member in the closing part of his speech. One knows from the experiment carried out by a headmaster in Fife in taking his pupils away from the classroom and living with them how much impetus one can give and how much one can discover of talents in children which in the ordinary classroom one never knew existed.
  While we have very much brought the debate down to accommodation and teachers, I think that one is unfair to the Secretary of State if one gives the impression that educational building in Scotland has been suffering from a stop-go policy. I know that education authorities in my county have had difficulties over their education programmes, but, by and large, with co-operation, those have been overcome.
  As has been said, it was only two years ago that we met the situation where education authorities began to find themselves short of money. One of the changes that came about at that time was that the Education Department in Edinburgh tried to relate more closely the amount of work which was being estimated for by education authorities and what was within their

  1629
  power to do. Before that time there were many instances where authorities had put forward estimates far in excess of the work that could actually be done. Very real problems were encountered in this sphere, because when one begins building schools in new town areas, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) described, by introducing one more school into a year's programme one can add up to £500,000, perhaps a quarter of the total amount, through the introduction of that one effort.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, East suggested that that type of school might be built through an agency typified by the Scottish Special Housing Association. I know that there is real fear in counties where new towns are being built that an unfair proportion of the money available has to go to the new areas because these are areas which can be catered for only by the building of a new school. There is no old school to be brought up to date. One has to start from scratch or do nothing. There is real need to make certain that the new town areas do not prejudice the modernisation and extension of schools elsewhere in the authority's area which have been in existence perhaps for hundreds of years.
  The same problem exists in university building. I was pleased that my right hon. Friend said that we are now trying to work a three-year period forward. The same problem exists in connection with capital grants for universities. The universities know that their current grant is based on a quinquennial allocation. There is real need to have a quinquennial programme for the capital expenditure of universities. In the case of St. Andrews, it appears that in May grants were intimated for capital expenditure up to March, 1966. It would be a very great help if the figure up to March, 1968, could be given to make certain that the planned expansion of the university can continue. It now amounts to 3,200 places and will build up to 4,800 places in 1967.
  It would also be helpful if the capital grants could be dealt with by the same forward planning method, not necessarily for a certain university but for the universities as a whole, so that the plan could be fitted in to ensure that the
  1630
  required number of student places can be provided. Our plans to increase the number of students in universities will fail if enough student places are not made available.
  I welcome very much the fact that during this year we have had an announcement that a further university is to be built in Scotland. The exact location of it is, I suppose, sub judice with the University Grants Committee. However, if we think of the types of place to which the oldest university went, we find that they did not of necessity go to the places which were at the time the most populous, and I do not think that it has ever been shown that they have in any way been hindered in their development as seats of learning by the fact that they were not located in capital cities. I trust that this point will be taken fully into account when the location of the new university is eventually decided.
  When we have been talking about the shortage of teachers, we have also always had in mind not only the fact that it is a problem which we know exists and which we face today, but the fact that there is to be a raising of the school-leaving age which will accentuate the difficulty. Also, it should be borne in mind that at present there is a rise in the number of students in primary and secondary schools, and that the forecast is that the figure will rise from 907,000 last year to 912,000 by 1965, and that by 1975, without the raising of the school-leaving age, the school population will be over the one million mark.
  This emphasises the very real need, mentioned by the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) and others, to use the very latest and best methods to overcome any deficiency in teaching staff which we know exists and which in many ways, because we know that there is a shortage of skilled men in almost every trade, we cannot help feeling will remain in spite of the efforts that are being made.
  When reading page 18 of the Report, which deals with teaching methods and how much stems from the actual work of teachers themselves, I was struck by the phrase:
  "New and refreshing experiments are being tried, more frequently than at almost any time in the past".

  1631
  I will not bother to quote any more from the Report, because hon. Members can read it. It seems a pity that we have not taken the necessary steps to make it obligatory for education authorities to have teachers on their education committees. If we are to create the interest and the extra impetus that we need we must consider the present composition of our education committees.
  I know that many people on education committees are dedicated to their work, but these are large committees, and many of those serving on them find that they are out of their depth when they try to do the work. They would welcome a greater degree of co-option of people who could give specialist advice, to make certain that proper use was made of all the aids to teaching which many hon. Members have described.
  If we are to make progress in this matter, when we consider such matters as the teaching of languages by new methods we must remember that unless, at the same time, we alter examination standards, and the methods by which people are examined, we shall not be able to make full use of the new techniques of teaching. The way in which people are taught will not enable them to answer the questions in the prescribed way. If we are to take advantage of new teaching methods we must also be prepared to consider the types of examination we set and the way in which people are tested at the end of the day.
  Naturally, the biggest problems arise in our cities and large centres of population, but we must remember that a great deal of good work has been done in our village schools. When I read of village schools being closed down I wonder whether we could not give thought to the possibility of finding a few volunteer teachers to go to those schools, rather than move the people who are left on the school roll into a populous centre. If that were done some of the schools which would otherwise have begun to fall below the required level of pupils could easily be kept up to the correct level, so that in three, four or five years' time the natural growth of population and an increase in the number of people living on the farms might easily result in such schools being able to re-
  1632
  turn to a full-time one-teacher or two-teacher establishment.
  Few of us have paid sufficient attention to the question of education. The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire was right to pay tribute to the majority of our young people. We know from the number who wish to take part in such organisations as Voluntary Service Overseas that more young people than ever are offering to do practical things. The difficulty is that insufficient opportunities are provided for them. We shall do a great deal to help the furtherance of education if we think in terms of trying to provide better jobs and better spare-time facilities for pupils in their last years at school.
  Listening to a wireless programme the other day I heard a headmaster say that when the announcement about the raising of the school-leaving age was made a number of pupils were disturbed, and their efforts in class fell off—although the announcement was in respect of something that would not happen until four, five or six years after those pupils had left school. The announcement had a depressing effect upon them. They felt that it meant another year's grind. Between now and the time when the extra year comes into force we must meet the challenge and make certain that we provide the necessary opportunities and create an atmosphere in which pupils will wish to stay on for their extra year, and will regard it not as a chore but as something which will help to fit them for later life.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Neil Carmichael: I was interested in the remarks of the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour). I would like to have pursued a number of the points which he raised in connection with such matters as the representation of teachers on education committees, which is a very contentious point. I would be inclined to agree rather than disagree with him about the necessity completely to change the examination system as we bring in new teaching methods.
  Since many other hon. Members wish to speak, however, I shall confine my remarks to a more specific point, which has been touched on by one or two hon. Members. I agree that such questions

  1633
  as the shortage of teachers and school buildings, and specialisation in the curricula of schools, are of vital importance, but I want to talk about the rôle of the junior secondary schools in Scottish education.
  Almost every country has come to the conclusion that its greatest natural resources are its people. Even those countries which have a tremendous amount of physical natural resources have realised that if they are to compete in the modern world they must use to the full the ability of their people. Only then can they use their natural resources economically and efficiently.
  It is no longer possible, as it was 50 years ago or even more recently, to run an undertaking with one literate manager who is highly educated and knows the technology of his industry, supervising gangs of work horses who do not need to be educated but are merely hewers of wood and drawers of water. That situation has changed very rapidly in recent years. Last week I was in a mine in Nottingham, and I found its technology quite staggering. The coal-cutting machine—the main part of which was made in Scotland—was something which could no longer be looked after merely by an ordinary technician. It needed very complicated workshops.
  We have reached the stage where, even in respect of one great scientific endeavour—such as the building of the Concord or the TSR.2, or the building of a single plant, such as a petrochemical plant—we probably use more technicians than were available for the whole of our technology 30 or 40 years ago. We must realise this. We must have many more people at all levels of technology than we have at the moment.
  I hope that I shall not appear to be digressing too far if I say that when the Russians launched their sputnik what staggered me was not the fact that they probably had captured one or two German scientists—I realise that they did receive enormous help from them—but that technology in Russia was more sophisticated than we had ever thought possible. It meant that they had teams to produce the guiding mechanism and the instrumentation and the craftsmen or draftsmen who designed everything
  1634
  down to the coupling for the fuel hoses. This was an indication to me that this was not merely a small, isolated pocket of technology, but that it had a sophisticated industry behind it.
  We were not surprised at the activities of the Americans. We know that for 30 or 40 years they have been building up their technical colleges and universities until a point was reached when many of the older European universities tended to sneer and considered that the Americans were going over the mark; that the American degree was not quite the thing. But during the last World War and the Korean War the results achieved by American technology showed how wise the Americans had been and how fundamental was their programme of educating large masses of people. From them a lot of "cream" was skimmed off.
  What has been done by the Americans and the Russians we must do, but in Britain we have many important steps to take. There are still far too many barriers. The children about whom I am concerned represent 70 per cent. of the school population. Until now, and particularly in Scotland, the lad of parts has been able to batter his way to the top through the universities because of the particularly good system which exists in Scotland and which enables the bright boy to get through.
  However, we are reaching the end of the supply of very bright boys from the working classes. The machinery is there already to provide them with an opportunity. No longer can we rely on recruiting from the old areas from which the universities have previously drawn their students. That intake comes very largely from the middle-class areas. We have gone sufficiently far in that direction. In fact, some people at the universities are convinced that we have gone too far and that too many middle-class children have been pushed through. To this some university people attribute the comparatively high failure rate in the first year of the Scottish universities.
  The Report of the Robbins Committee shows that far too few children from unskilled, semi-skilled and even skilled workers' families are given a chance of higher education. I do not believe that we can afford to allow the figures revealed by Robbins to continue without

  1635
  alteration. We must find a great deal more talent than we have got from this 70 per cent. in the past. A significant increase in the entrants to universities must come from groups of the community where there is no academic or professional ancestry. That is the big problem which faces us. We cannot afford to wait for the bright children to push their way through. We have to start to dig for them.
  On Tuesday, I presided at the prize-giving at a junior secondary school in the East End of Glasgow I refuse to believe that children from that school, particularly those who received prizes, would all have been denied the opportunity of higher education had they lived in the better, middle-class districts on the West side of Glasgow. What chance had these children had? In a school where there is a staff of 36 teachers there have been 14 changes in one year and another five teachers will be leaving at the end of the term. That is typical of what happens in junior secondary schools, and it is true of the type of schooling which these children have had since they commenced school at the age of five.
  The turnover in staff in these schools, which are classed as poorer schools, is much higher than that in the schools of the West End and certain parts on the other side of Glasgow. There are many reasons for this. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern) referred to geographical reasons. The area which he represents is hit particularly hardly in this respect. It is a long distance from where it is traditional for teachers in Glasgow to live. There is a teacher shortage, and most of the teachers live in different areas. This makes education administrators desperate, and when someone is prepared to teach in a school in the East End the administrators are chary of imposing too many conditions in case they lose the services of a potential teacher.
  We must re-examine the whole question of extra payments for teachers. That has been referred to today. We must examine it not merely in terms of Glasgow as a whole but from the point of view of each school or area. We must consider also the question of money.
  1636
  Few teachers will be attracted by a sum of £50 a year, when they take into consideration such things as additional transport costs. In terms of money we must think more imaginatively.
  Perhaps even more important is the need to re-examine the whole quota system. That may prove unpopular particularly with the teachers. I think it wrong that because there happen to be schools for which teachers are available in a certain area automatically that area should get an advantage, while schools in other parts of a city get little or no choice. At present it is the case in most big cities that if there is a need for a teacher to teach a particular subject in a school in a poorer area, and also in a school in a better part of the city, it is the junior secondary, or the poorer school, which is the last to get such a teacher. We have to make sure that these less attractive schools are properly staffed.
  Most hon. Members who have spoken have referred to the shortage of teachers, and in the junior secondary schools this shortage is appalling. Hon. Members will be aware that many headmasters refer to this shortage, and the children are made aware that there does exist a sort of second-class school citizens in these junior secondary schools. The headmasters are not being cruel, the children know that academically they are grouped as second-class material. No matter how nicely we may try to phrase it or how smoothly we may attempt to put it over in terms of developing the ability of every child to the maximum, these children are not deceived. They know that when they get to a certain age the so-called bright children will go in one direction and the remainder will go in another.
  During the debate yesterday on English education, the point was clearly made that different children have different abilities, and that we all recognise. All have ability and we try to find ways to develop it. Surely we know sufficient now to realise that the old-fashioned idea that intelligence is something one can touch or measure with a ruler is wrong. Intelligence is a most complicated physical function which can be developed or retarded, and it is affected by a great many factors from birth onwards. The type of environment in which a child is brought up has a much greater bearing on

  1637
  intelligence than was once realised. We must pay a great deal more attention to the question of nurture rather than nature. How can boys or girls realise to the full the standard of life which they can lead if they live under bad housing conditions and on an unbalanced diet?
  Most of the children that I speak of in the junior secondary schools are from families where the parents had much the same educational experiences as their children are now having. School for them was a place of unhappy memories to be got through as quickly as possible so that money could be earned and, with it, some measure of independence and illusory freedom. If we are to reach the Robbins target and beyond, which I think we must do, we must break this pattern which has been going on for so long. We want to get every boy and girl into some form of higher education for our own industrial survival. Everyone must be given a chance in life, if we want to call ourselves a first rate nation. In a materialist world people may get a chance in life because ultimately industry and commerce will need to develop people of a higher standard of education.
  After all this criticism, it is only right that I should say something about the practical steps that we must take. Some of these could be brought into effect with minimal expense, and the rewards would be quite considerable. We must start by making all parents much more conscious of the importance to their children of their own attitude to Education. We must put education before people, and it is terribly important that we should do it in a language that parents understand.
  The complications of modern education are such that many headmasters who have spent their working lives in education do not know from month to month what the requirements of higher education will be. I have spoken to some of them fairly recently and they have said that they can hardly keep abreast themselves of the requirements for entrance to the various universities and institutions for higher education. What chance then have parents who left school 20 years ago of being able to guide their children when they find that the teachers talk a language which is just a bit beyond them. In some parts of England special work has been done in this connection. Sheffield has made a special study of the presentation of the
  1638
  problems of their children to the parents in a language which the parents can understand.
  We must also start to give the junior secondary schools a much fairer share of the teachers, using either monetary incentive or a slightly more rigid quota system. Most of all, we must use every means possible through the ante-natal clinics and through television to impress upon parents the importance of the physical well being of their children in relation to their mental development.
  An hon. Member mentioned the fact that teachers who go to residential schools find that after a short period when they get to know the children they are brighter and respond much better—they are a totally different type of animal. This is understandable, because at the residential schools the children are getting a rigid curriculum which they get to like. They go to bed at a reasonable time, the food is well-balanced, they are in healthy, fresh, open surroundings, and the atmosphere is conducive to their participation in the education that they are receiving.
  We must start making the parents aware of these things. I think that with a little skill and understanding people who can manage to sell detergents by advertising on television could manage to get across these simple ideas to the parents. I make no apology for confining myself almost exclusively to the question of the junior secondary schools, which provide for 70 per cent. of our school population, because we must use these children much more effectively than we have done in the past. We could awaken the hunger which I am sure exists in these children for knowledge and mental exercise. That hunger is illustrated at present by their knowing all the football teams in their area, the names of the footballers and where they come from. They know the "Top Twenty" for this month and can give the names of the ones who went before. If children are interested in these things, surely we should spend some time in trying to understand why they shy at the idea of ordinary academic lessons.
  If we can do this, we shall have gone a long way towards liberating the energy which will create a new generation of brighter, fitter and much more inquisitive children who will take an active part in the world around them.
  7.57 p.m.
  Mr. D. C. Anderson: My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour) drew attention to the position of the village schools. I feel that attention should also be given to the position of the even more remote country schools which exist where there may not be even a village or hamlet—the small schools in the high upland areas of the southern uplands and places such as that.
  There is an impression which may not be well-founded, but is very general, that, administratively, these schools are closed with too much emphasis on the economic results and too little on the social and other reasons which require to be borne in mind. One of the social reasons was mentioned by an hon. Member opposite—the effect of the environment upon the pupil. In these small country schools the environment is very much quieter than it is in the towns and cities. Instead of the noise of traffic, the pupil may hear the call of the curlew and peewit from outside the window.
  There is an air of freshness, the effect of the scenery of the hills and the upland valleys and the greater impact of the personality of the teacher, especially in the smaller one-teacher schools. The school is more of a team and, again, it is a matter of impression but I suggest that research would show the service to the country and the character of the average of the citizens produced by these schools in the remoter parts.
  In saying that, I am in no way belittling the contributions made by the pupils in the cities, but the contribution made by the pupil in the small upland school is different and he perhaps possesses a greater degree of self-reliance. If these small schools are kept up for other than economic reasons, depopulation in such areas will be discouraged. The school is there as an additional social amenity in the high valley in the case I am thinking of particularly.
  The time has now come, as in the case of railways in remote regions, to think of other than economic reasons why they should not be closed. The matter should be looked into closely. The same has been the case for a long time as regards farms in upland regions which get special hill subsidies and other assistance recognising the difficulties
  1640
  with which they are faced. Surely one of the most precious of all our national products is the character of the children who are being produced in such areas. They should be helped, artificially if need be, by leaning somewhat heavily away from purely economic reasons.
  I mention that class of small upland school of even more remote character than the village school which was brought to our attention by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East.
  8.1 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I, of course, agree with the speech of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Anderson). He can rest assured that my hon. Friends and I, when we cross the Floor, will see to it that the small schools in the upland districts of Scotland to which he referred will receive far more attention from a Labour Government than they have so far received from a Tory Government.
  Our debate today has been largely concerned with the practicalities of education. With that I have no quarrel. That will be my theme in dealing particularly with the city from which I come. I am certain that hon. Members will agree that the practicalities of education must never obscure the vision on which education lives and thrives, for when vision departs from education it will lose its greatest value. Often there may tend to be conflict between the vision of education which we all have and the practical issues which arise in trying to materialise our vision.
  I agree that there should be no real conflict between these aspects. Nevertheless, it does happen, particularly when we deal with the provision of finance. How much shall we spend on the future? What shall we allocate to the present? That balance may be hard to strike, but in my view too little attention and too little money are being devoted towards preparing youth, not so much for the future as for the kind of future to which it is committed. No one has emphasised that aspect more than my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Bridgeton—
  Mr. Carmichael: Woodside.
  Mr. Rankin: I am sorry, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Woodside (Mr. Carmichael). I suppose that is

  1641
  one of those natural errors into which one may fall, especially those of us who knew his father. My hon. Friend emphasised that aspect very well when he said that in Scotland today, instancing specially the city he knows so well, cheap education is still the theme in too many places in Glasgow. The Secretary of State for Scotland must be aware of the fact that junior secondary education, as it is called, was created almost to keep a certain section of the community clear of what we call the senior secondary schools.
  The important thing today, as I have said, is not just the future but the kind of future which faces our children. Most people believe that the new technologies will provide more leisure. If they do provide more leisure, in due course a Secretary of State for Scotland must realise that we have to educate for leisure just as much as we have to educate for work. That is very important to recognise because within leisure we shall have a great wide field, not merely for sport but for art, music and a whole new type of culture. It will be new to many people. If it is important that people should work, it is equally important that they should be able to employ their leisure usefully and effectively towards the raising of the whole cultural value of the community in which they live.
  This also means a new attitude towards the qualifications of the men and women who will be teaching those children in the years that lie ahead. I wonder if the Secretary of State realises how very far we are behind the practice of other countries in our attitude towards leisure. Does he realise that today sport is a subject for a degree in certain universities outside Britain? Sport is given the status which is given to music, to mathematics, to English and all the other subjects that are normally regarded as qualifications for a degree. Sport is now raised to the same eminence as those academic topics.
  In Shanghai University an immense stadium is provided for students. There is accommodation for living at the stadium with a tutor and others qualified to carry on the training of students to the level of acquiring a pass in the subject of sport. In other words, they will go out to the schools not in any way inferior academically to any other
  1642
  member of the staff. They will have a university education equal to that of any mathematics teacher or any other teacher on the staff.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: May I make a suggestion to my hon. Friend? He is dealing with education in the future, education for work and education for leisure, but he has not said a word—and I should like him to say a word—about education for service to the community. There are some universities, as he knows, which give education under the heading "Science and work". The Military College at Camberley teaches "Science and warfare". I suggest that there should be "Science and service" and—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. James McInnes): Order. I thought that the hon. and learned Member was putting a question to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin). He cannot make a speech.
  Mr. Rankin: I did not realise that my hon. and learned Friend was inserting a speech within my speech. While I always listen to him with pleasure, I am not quite so happy when he tries to curl himself quite so closely into my arms as he did. I have been sitting on this blessed spot since 3.30 p.m. and it is now 8.11 p.m. My stomach is empty and my head is full, because ideas have been growing all the time I have been sitting here. I was tempted to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) in the most interesting speech which he made on methodology in schools and in defending the youth of today. What marvellous young men and women we are growing in our midst and how little credit we give to them! Anything they do wrong, or anything which is done wrong by one of their number, immediately receives enormous headlines in the Press. But seldom do we see a word of credit given to the good work which they do in organised groups and bodies.
  I should have loved to follow other hon. Members in their arguments, too, but I am thinking that one or two of my hon. Friends have, like myself, been sitting in the Chamber for a considerable time, and I do not want to be too long. I must therefore discourage my hon. and

  1643
  learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), however estimable may have been his interruption, and I must leave it to him to develop for himself what he thought he might develop out of me.
  I return to the point which I was making.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: I apologise.
  Mr. Rankin: There is no need to apologise.
  I turn to the point which I was developing, that the new technology will provide more leisure. I agree that at the moment this is not fully in evidence, but radiation and reactor technology will not only have a marked effect on productivity, earnings and employment but will also tend to speed up the application of automation. One of the results of this change in industry is to install into the machine or the process man's basic skills and consequently to diminish the margin between skilled and unskilled labour. Automation, as I see it, includes integration, electronics and computers; and it contains within itself the means of enriching the lives of people; ending poverty; providing more leisure and leading to a new cultural life for all.
  It is for these advances that the schools of today must prepare. When I say schools, I mean schools at all levels, and the universities. I say nothing about the location of universities still under consideration, but if I were to do so I should agree fully with the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Gilmour) who suggested that their proper location is not necessarily in the populated areas but in those areas of Scotland which are least populated.
  Schools must include universities, technical and technological colleges and further education in all its aspects. I was delighted to hear what the Secretary of State said about further education and what it means today in our schools, but I was sorry that he did not develop it as far as he might well have done. As the former head of one of our great further education centres in the city of Glasgow with a staff of 80 teachers and 1,400 pupils, I required seven schools to contain the courses and classes which had to be carried on. One headmaster to organise everything! When I say that,
  1644
  the Secretary of State will realise what a poverty-striken state those schools were in for equipment when I needed seven separate places to carry on further education. There is also compulsory education for the young.
  This is the step forward with which I particularly want to deal. The school-leaving age is to be raised to 16 by 1970–71. I come up against the harsh practicalities, although I am not forgetting the risks which are involved in that decision. The Government's resolve to raise the school-leaving age fully commends itself to me, but it demands more money, more schools, more teachers and more playing space. At the moment, Glasgow schools are short of playing space to the extent of 200 acres. If by 1970–71 the decision which the Secretary of State has taken on behalf of his Government is implemented, then Glasgow will be short of 440 acres of playing space for the new and the former schools.
  The Secretary of State told us that colleges of further education will require 12 to 13 acres of space for their premises. I fully approve of that. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that there are few schools in Glasgow which have been able to preserve the seven acres of school premise space for secondary schools and the four and a half acres laid down in the code for primary schools. In Glasgow, as a result of the Secretary of State's decision, 12 new schools will be required to house the extra pupils absorbed by the new leaving age. The education authority estimates that £10 million of capital expenditure will be necessary to provide those new buildings made necessary by this change. This sum, the authority says, should be spent during 1968–69 and 1969–70 if these school buildings are to be ready to accommodate the new pupils. A few moments ago, before the Secretary of State arrived, I think, the hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) said that we must have the schools at the same time as other necessary adjustments.
  In addition, says the authority, projects already on the building programme would require to be started before 1968. This involves the spending of £5 million, if the authority is to do that job. Faced with that situation, this year Glasgow

  1645
  is being allocated only £2½ million per annum for the new accommodation which it requires. The present building programme to meet the needs now existing in the city will be far from completed before the authority is called on to provide more room for the extra year.
  If the Government will the deed, as they are doing, it is their job to ensure that funds are available for its achievement. They must not, in practice, actually retard what they profess to be promoting. It is sheer deception to talk of raising the leaving age to 16 if, when the time comes, the buildings to house the pupils are not available. In Glasgow, where 15,000 new places must be found, the problem is particularly acute. There is the difficulty of sites. These are just unobtainable. If the Secretary of State thinks that he can find a site in Glasgow on which to build a new school for the raised leaving age, I ask him to come and do it. He will not find it. Therefore, for 1970 additional building to meet the Secretary of State's requirements will require to be in the form of fourth year blocks at other existing school in the city.
  This solution will eat up presently used playing space. Therefore, the new schools, if they are designed properly, must allow for games halls within their walls. I hope that the Secretary of State understands the meaning attached to games halls. They are reputably about the size of three ordinary gymnasiums. Students will have to go inside if the playing space cannot be found outside. Alternatively, we shall be faced with the waste of educational time involved in long journeys to the city's playing fields in the marginal areas.
  I see that waste of educational time going on just now. The children in Pollok must come by bus to Pollock-shaws baths for their swimming lesson. That journey alone consumes the best part of half an hour. They spend half an hour in the bath. Another half hour is spent returning to school. A whole hour is thus wasted every time a class goes for a lesson which, in itself, requires only half that time.
  Then there is the problem of staffing. This is where cheapness in education may again intrude its head. So I lay down two axioms. First, teachers cannot be fully prepared for their job in
  1646
  the age of automation by automative methods; nor, at an age when the boys of Eton are only leaving school, should they necessarily be precipitated into the onerous task of equipping today's youth to play its proper part in an exciting and exactly world.
  Secondly, Scottish education has been run too cheaply for too long. We must lift it on to the plane nearer that which education occupies already in many other countries but which has been denied to Scotland for too long. This attitude has intensified the existing problem of teacher shortage which now faces the Secretary of State. If Glasgow is to meet the demands of raising the school-leaving age to 16, it needs 1,000 extra teachers. These must have a far greater variety of qualifications than teachers trained earlier are supposed to need. They must have greater experience, greater qualifications and better training.
  These facts simply emphasise the axioms I have stated. Glasgow's shortage of teachers today is 1,063. Add to that the 1,000 which Glasgow will lack in 1970 and we have the city facing a shortage of over 2,000 teachers to meet the demands of the Secretary of State. For Scotland as a whole, the estimated teacher deficiency in 1970, when the school-leaving age of 16 becomes operative, will be 5,150. The new leaving age will require 5,000 additional teachers. Therefore, the Minister faces the fact that 10,000 more teachers will be required by 1970–71 if he is to crown with success the programme he is putting before us tonight.
  The conflict between the real and the ideal in education is a continuing dichotomy. I have not had time to say much about the ideal, but in education it must never be submerged at any time by the clamant and pressing needs of the present.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Forbes Hendry: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) will not expect me to follow his discourse too closely. Nobody speaks with greater authority about Scottish education than the hon. Member; and after he has dealt with something, usually very little remains to be said about it. The hon. Member

  1647
  spoke about the difference between the real and the ideal and in education that is true. I would like to confine my remarks to what I think is the real, and deal a little more fully with what the hon. Member called the harsh, hard practicalities flowing from the raising of the school-leaving age.
  I am sure that I speak for all hon. Members when I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his courageous action in deciding to raise the school-leaving age in 1970 to 16. A great deal has been said about this and the difficulties which will flow from it. However, in congratulating my right hon. Friend on taking that decision, I wish to congratulate him in connection with another matter which has not been mentioned; the careful and masterly appreciation he has had of the situation.
  I have had the privilege of reading the Scottish Education Department's Circular No. 562. It illustrates the tremendous amount of forethought which has been given by my right hon. Friend to the difficulties arising from the various problems we have been discussing. The statements in that circular contrast with the rather woolly suggestions that are made by hon. Members opposite from time to time in connection with raising the school-leaving age. They talk about raising it "as soon as practicable" and make other statements, while my right hon. Friend has got down to the problem, has thought it out and has reached the conclusion that 1970 is about the right time to do it.
  It is clear from the circular that my right hon. Friend has gone into all the aspects involved in doing this, including the preliminary action which must be taken by local education authorities in preparation for raising the school-leaving age, along with making forecasts of their difficulties and planning courses for the children who will be affected. He has dealt with the supply of teachers and the problems of school building. We must all agree that my right hon. Friend has done remarkably well, certainly better than any of his predecessors on this question of school building.
  As has been mentioned, school building has reached a record figure and it
  1648
  is interesting to see how the achievement in school building has increased regularly year by year under the present Government. The most interesting features are that in the last two years, 1962–63, the achievement in school building has exceeded the whole of the expenditure on school building during the period 1945–51. On that, everyone will wish to congratulate my right hon. Friend.
  Although my right hon. Friend has done remarkably well on school building, has he done enough? It seems that greater capital investment is required immediately to achieve more school building. In the circular to which I refer my right hon. Friend directs local authorities to increase their school building programmes for the express purpose of meeting the increase in the school-leaving age. They are directed to increase it from 1967–68 onwards. It would appear from that that my right hon. Friend is being a little optimistic, in view of the great amount of school building that is still required.
  This presents difficulties from many points of view. We heard from the hon. Member for Govan of the difficulties in Glasgow. They are not so great in other areas, particularly where there is a pool in the building industry and where the industry can easily handle the increase. I urge my right hon. Friend to consider the ability of local education authorities to produce the buildings which are urgently required.
  Hon. and right hon. Members opposite have spoken of the theory of fair shares for all but, in this instance, we should depart from that. If a local education authority finds that it has the labour and the finance necessary to get on with building, it should get on with the building. That area should not be held back because of the difficulties of another.
  In this matter my right hon. Friend has to wear another of his hats. He has to remember that he is Prime Minister of Scotland, that trade and industry in Scotland must be maintained, and that where there is—as there is in the north of Scotland—a decided danger of rural depopulation and a running down of the building industry he will have to take that into account and allow local education authorities which have

  1649
  the ability to get on with the building of schools, irrespective of whether or not they get on faster than others.
  I turn to my right hon. Friend's instructions to local authorities to get on with the building of schools from 1967–68 onwards with a view to the raising of the school-leaving age. I believe that he is being unduly optimistic. Any sizeable school extension will normally take two or three years to complete, so that if the very last of the building schemes for this purpose were to be started in 1968 they would not be ready in 1970. My right hon. Friend must, therefore, think again, and instruct local education authorities to start building, wherever practicable, for this purpose in anticipation of 1967–68, if we are to have the buildings ready for 1970, when the school-leaving age is increased. I truly believe that if the building does not begin until 1967, necessary accommodation cannot possibly be ready in time.
  In a great many local authority areas it is very difficult to say how many schemes will be required for this purpose, because local education authorities do not know what will be the policy of the Scottish education authority in regard to the centralisation of schools. In Aberdeenshire, West a great many small secondary schools are likely to be closed, and the work centralised in bigger establishments. The same thing will happen in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon). Between us, we have no fewer than 50 schools that at present take secondary pupils. We do not know how many of them will be closed and the work centralised, and my right hon. Friend should tell us definitely so that we may plan ahead. If we have the information, we can concentrate on what he considers to be the real centres which will be the secondary schools after the leaving age has been raised.
  In giving his instructions on this subject, I would ask my right hon. Friend to give very careful thought to the whole question of centralisation. It has many attractions, it leads to a saving in teachers, and can result in courses that the little schools cannot provide, but at the same time, it creates great human hardship. It should not be a matter of sitting in Edinburgh, thinking out, and putting on paper, what the repercussions are. My
  1650
  right hon. Friend must think of children having to walk through the snow to get to a secondary school two or three miles away, or further. I hope that he will be merciful.
  The little schools have been mentioned several times today, and they constitute a serious problem in centralisation. The parents of children at one such school in Aberdeenshire, East have threatened to raise an action in the Court of Session to prevent their secondary school being closed. I hope that local education authorities in Aberdeenshire and elsewhere will not have to ride roughshod over the wishes of parents by insisting on undue centralisation.
  The more we centralise, the bigger this problem will become and the bigger the centres will have to be, and more individual schemes will have to be undertaken in connection with the raising of the school-leaving age. Even if in Aberdeenshire, for instance, we have to start 20 such schemes out of the 50 in 1967 or 1968, the whole position seems quite unrealistic in view of the present allocation of money for this purpose by the Scottish Education Department.
  School building is urgently required for other purposes. This has been mentioned by other hon. Members, principally representing city constituencies, who have spoken about what they call "slum schools". I do not call them slum schools, but they are schools which are not up to modern standards and they are to be found as often in the countryside as in the cities. This is a serious problem which must be tackled. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to think again about the whole question of money for school building and of giving local authorities who can do this work—and many can—their head to get on with the job. I assure him that the local authorities will co-operate to the best of their ability. All they ask for is the encouragement which is so much lacking at present.
  Apart from school building, there is also the problem of the supply of teachers. This has been dealt with at great length already in the debate. Anything that I would have to say about it would be to a large extent tedious repetition, but the success which has already followed from the steps taken by my right hon. Friend is striking. Many figures have been bandied about in the debate. I would only

  1651
  mention one striking example and that is that whereas, in 1961–62, the number of teachers in Scotland was 37,140, in the subsequent year it was 37,794, an increase of over 650 in 12 months. We ought to congratulate my right hon. Friend on this and hope that in future that increase will not only be continued, but will be accelerated until we have by 1970 the number of teachers which we so badly require.
  The departmental circular which I mentioned earlier urges all concerned to get on with this. It is worth while pointing out its exact words:
  "Sustained effort will be needed on the part of all concerned—including education authorities, colleges of education, and the teachers' associations—to secure an effective increase in the numbers engaged in whole-time or part-time teaching service."
  On this subject I should like to repeat what I have said on other occasions. It is that it seems to me that there is a possibility of recruiting a new type of teacher, not a university graduate but a male teacher from the Services or men from other walks of life who are first-class instructors and who, with a little instruction, could be made into effective teachers to lead boys, particularly along the less academic walks of life.
  During my time in the Services I saw many excellent instructors. These men are wasted once they leave the Service. I remember particularly one first-class instructor who was a natural leader of men. He had had a reasonable education. He could easily teach a non-academic class with a little encouragement, but he is wasting his days delivering letters as a postman. He is doing a useful job of work, but he and many like him could do useful work as teachers if their services were recruited after a certain amount of training.
  No mention has been made so far in the debate of the unfair treatment meted out to retired teachers when they are brought back into teaching. It is monstrous that these people, who have spent a lifetime in teaching and who are excellent, most experienced teachers, should find their pensions cut off when they are persuaded to come out of retirement and return to part-time teaching. It is monstrous that there
  1652
  should be one payment for teachers before retirement and another for some teachers who go back to help the nation in dire need.
  I should like to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to a most pathetic letter from a retired teacher which appeared in The Times Educational Supplement on 26th June. This is what he wrote:
  "I retired eight years ago (age limit) and I was immediately asked if I would take a part-time job—2½ days per week—in a local school. I was quite glad to do so, as there was such a shortage of teachers in the district … but when I count up the amount of pension I have lost during these eight years … it just makes by blood boil. The princely sum I receive per month for pension is £6. I wish that something could be done for us poor unfortunate victims of chance."
  These are very worthy and excellent people—it would not be possible to get better teachers—who are helping out to the best of their ability. They are invaluable and they should be encouraged instead of discouraged, as has happened over the past few years. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to give these people the encouragement which is their right. They have paid for their pensions and if they help out the educational authorities in time of need they are entitled to proper payment.
  The other point which is dealt with at length in the circular is the question of courses. The Brunton Report, which was published last year, rightly draws attention to the need for making secondary school courses more realistic and interesting by relating them more closely to the vocational interests of the pupils. The circular asks local authorities to develop work-based courses in junior secondary schools, and I believe that most education authorities are doing that. But local education authorities are finding considerable difficulty in many cases in organising these courses.
  In Aberdeenshire, and other parts of north and south Scotland, the most important industry is agriculture. My local education authority in Aberdeenshire has developed plans for an agricultural course for junior secondary pupils at various places, but it looks as though these will be held up for some years possibly for want of capital investment. There is a lack of money. I believe that local education authorities will co-operate

  1653
  with the Government in every possible way in producing these courses if they get the facilities.
  In agricultural education my right hon. Friend can do a lot by wearing another of his hats. After all, he is Minister of Agriculture for Scotland as well as Minister of Education for Scotland. These courses have got to be worked out in collaboration with the local agricultural colleges. The Aberdeenshire course that I have mentioned has been worked out in collaboration with the agricultural college, but it does not appear to be collaborating as it ought to do. I do not know whether it is short of money or not, but I ask my right hon. Friend to do what he can in his other capacity, to make sure that these agricultural courses get the encouragement they deserve.
  The Aberdeenshire authority has participated in a block release scheme for agricultural apprentices in connection with the North of Scotland College of Agriculture. But the college does not appear to be in a position to collaborate in the way that one would hope. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to do everything he possibly can to bring together the various Departments of the Scottish Office to make sure that all these vocational courses proceed in the way they should.
  I apologise for having spoken for so long. I started by congratulating my right hon. Friend on his bold and wise decision to increase the school-leaving age by 1970. I am perfectly certain that this is practicable. If I have been critical of my right hon. Friend, I have tried to make my criticisms practical criticisms. I feel that from this appreciation contained in the departmental circular he understands very well what the position is. I am certain that I speak for every local education authority in Scotland when I say that we are willing and anxious to co-operate with him in every possible way to make this decision an unqualified success.
  8.50 p.m.
  Dr. Alan Thompson: I begin with a comment about television. There have been various references to Glasgow's great achievements in using television, achievements which I greatly applaud, but I must tell the Committee that Queen Ann's School in Dunfermline was the pioneer of a com-
  1654
  pletely new form of school television almost unique in this country, and, I believe, unique in Europe. Under this system, there is mutual class instruction and discussion back and forth among students. It reflects great credit on the headmaster and on Fife County Council which pioneered it.
  I turn now to the specific point which I wish to raise on page 11 of the Report, which refers to the impact of Robbins on Scottish education. We read:
  "Among the many recommendations in the Report of significance in the educational sectors with which the Secretary of State is concerned are various measures for the improvement of co-operation between institutions of higher education and the schools; the introduction in colleges of education of four-year courses for suitable students leading to a degree awarded by universities … the granting of university status to the most advanced Scottish central institutions".
  The first point is vital—relations between higher institutions and the schools We must build better bridges between the different levels of our education system. Our bridges in the past have been very rickety. There has been almost no liaison, although the fault has not been with the schools or universities. The decisions of the board formerly concerned with university entrance have been more or less imposed unilaterally on the schools and entire school curricula have had to be changed as a result. In this matter we must see Scottish education as a whole.
  This brings me to the problem of university organisation within the context of Scottish education. The universities rightly do not want to be placed under the Scottish Education Department, yet there are certain problems in Scottish university education common among the universities themselves, as distinct from English universities, and concerned with the links between the Scottish schools, which have their own education system, and the universities. The Minister rejected the idea, rightly, I think, of putting the universities under the Scottish education Department, but I am not sure that he can thereby write them off.
  We are unique in Scotland in having had a special Act, the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889, which has kept the universities together to some extent and at the same time has, to some extent, kept them in contact with other sectors of

  1655
  Scottish education. I understand that the Act is now to be repealed, or drastically amended. If this Act is repealed, as a result of the new U.G.C. organisation, Scotland will lose the overall approach to education which has been so valuable in the past. How can we maintain the Secretary of State's responsibility for Scottish education if, as soon as boys and girls have left school, they pass completely out of his province of responsibility? We must strengthen the links between the Scottish universities and other educational levels, if necessary having on the university governing councils some representatives from the Scottish teaching profession. The universities would also benefit from representatives from a wide cross-section of national life—business men, local authority people, the trades unions and others—on their governing bodies. I know that this is already done to some extent. If necessary, we could have ministerial appointees on the governing councils of the universities who will be able to act as the bridge with the special problems of our Scottish schools. They would not be the Minister's delegates in the sense of carrying out his instructions. They would be much more like people appointed by the Minister to hospital boards who, once appointed, act independently in the interests of the board on which they serve, though preserving the kind of links with other bodies which are so vital. Although I greatly value the independence of universities, I think that appointees of this kind who would be able to act independently in the interests of the university concerned could be most valuable in bridging the gap. I do not think that they would undermine the autonomy of the universities.
  Another solution would be to have a Scottish Minister concerned with the allocation of U.G.C. grants to Scotland. I should not make this Minister the Under-Secretary of State, with all respect to the noble Lady. This is nothing personal against her. I am talking now about the Department. This would give departmental control of the universities, which they do not want, but I see no objection to a Minister as overlord, a Minister of State in Scotland, who would have some vague and general responsibility for the universities, who would
  1656
  be in touch with the unique characteristics of Scottish education and who, in this way, would help to build this bridge which is so important.
  The bridge can be built in other ways. The universities must go out to the school. Some universities, such as Edinburgh, do this. There should be conferences of headmasters held at the universities. Students should be taken on tour and shown what is available at the universities, and should discuss with university dons on the problems that they face in their sixth forms and what they hope to do at the university.
  Scotland is better than England in one respect, in that we have the Scottish ordinary degree, which is a very good idea. The trouble in English universities is that students come from school and are forced to specialise before they have acquired the knowledge to enable them to choose the subject in which they might want to specialise. They base their choice on the fact that they were good at a certain subject at school. But a university offers a much wider range of subjects. This is why English students often specialise not in subjects like social studies but in subjects that they did at school. A student may decide to specialise in a subject because he liked the teacher who took that subject at school. These are considerations based on the past and not on the future.
  The ordinary degree gives the student the choice of a group of subjects which he might want to take further. One might call the first year of the ordinary degree one of planned procrastination, but it gives the student the opportunity to compare one subject with another and find where his interest and aptitude lie.
  Similarly, the four-year honours degree in Scotland enables the student to defer his specialisation until he has had the chance to look round. This is a very important point. A fateful choice of speciality in the first year commits a boy or girl for a lifetime.
  The Minister of State for Education and Science (Sir Edward Boyle): I should like to take up what the hon. Gentleman was saying about Scotland and the U.G.C. No English Minister

  1657
  decides in detail the allocation of university capital finance. This is a matter for the U.G.C. But, first, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is concerned as I am to see that the universities globally get enough finance. Secondly, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no reason why my right hon. Friend should not have personal access to the Chairman of the U.G.C. He is in fairly close personal contact with him. There is no desire to keep the U.G.C. away from my right hon. Friend.
  Dr. Thompson: I am glad to have that assurance, but I think I still prefer a Scottish Minister, perhaps a Minister of State, without direct detailed control, accessible to Scottish universities. However, I have not time to pursue this very important problem.
  The English consider that their pass degree is a degree for casualties, for those who fall by the wayside. The Scottish ordinary degree, on the other hand, which is part of the planning of the combined Scottish university legislation, has a lot to commend it. It is a good degree in its own right.
  I would like now to look at the 1889 Act. Obviously, many of the provisions of this Act are obsolete and plainly must be changed. The amendments made to it should not shackle the Scottish universities. They should not put difficulties in the way of creating new chairs or make it impossible to carry out useful reforms as has sometimes happened in the past. These restrictive aspects of the Act are bad, but in so far as the Act provided an area of consultation in which Scotland could consider its educational problems, to develop historically its own degrees—and, in many respects, they are very good degrees—the deliberative and consultative aspects of the Act should be maintained. I should be very sorry to see them go.
  I turn to internal university organisation. The problem of the universities is to become more responsive to outside opinion—teacher opinion, student opinion and parent opinion. I have already said that I should like to see governing bodies including many more consumer interests. I am a great believer in consumer interests being represented on all bodies, whether
  1658
  universities or any other form of professional organisation. I should also like to see much more internal self-government. I should like the university governing bodies to have more junior staff who have a say in the matter. I should like to see the American system of rotating headships of departments. It is a bad thing that an eminent professor of, say, physics should become head of a department and get obsessed and involved in paper work, dictating numerous letters and attending committees and in this way getting snowed down under it all to the detriment of his academic work. What is worse, he might actually come to like it.
  The question of staff-student ratios has already been mentioned. In the Scottish universities, we must really try to reduce the size of our classes. In the smaller class, there is an area of curiosity and investigation and provoking the student to new ideas which cannot be done in the larger classes. A small class provides intimate contact; it gives a delicate mechanism of inquiry and response, of quest and discovery. Again, however, the Scottish universities are dependent upon what money the Government give them to do this.
  The point about the universities is that they have a research and a teaching function. One of the problems is that the research function is vastly changing. The scale and character of modern research call for a much greater range of skills and of equipment which is expensive and complex. In the 1920s, Sir John Cock-croft spent £1,000 on an experiment which had profound repercussions upon the whole of science in the modern world. To develop similar experiments now would need machinery and equipment worth £10 million. In this sense, the scale of research is changing. Scientists no longer work so much alone but in teams. Universities must be large enough to accommodate these big research departments and to spread the equipment overheads. This is why we need a much more flexible organisation of subjects in universities. The fact that a subject has existed for 200 years does not mean that it should necessarily continue for another 200 years.
  We should experiment more with new studies. Scotland has been backward in the social sciences, research into the problems of modern society, education,

  1659
  old age, the sociology of economic growth, and so on. We need these studies to fill the administrative posts that our Welfare State will make more and more necessary; for example, administrative posts in government, local government, the welfare services, hospitals and the rest. The enlightened amateur must give way to the professional in the realm of social studies. Here, Scotland has, perhaps, lagged a little bit.
  Social studies are important in bridging the gap between the arts and sciences. Social science has improved by becoming statistical and analytical. On the other hand, it still involves humane judgments and a liberal approach to the problems of society that one associates more, perhaps, with the arts.
  I have spoken of the fact that the tradition for a department to have a permanent head is a bad one. More flexibility is needed, with rotating headships. We also need more flexibility in university government and to change the people on the committees from time to time not restricting membership always to professors. We need to give professors a rest from administrative work at intervals and to bring on younger dons, who often benefit from this kind of committee experience provided that it does not go too far and occupy all their time. It gives them a sense of responsibility and an idea of public work, the reconciliation of university problems with national needs and the way in which universities must adjust themselves to changing conditions.
  I turn now to the shortage of resources. I would not be as revolutionary as to propose an additional university term in the academic year, because we must leave the so-called vacations for staff research, the writing of papers and the like. We may, however, have to experiment with more weeks in a university term. In this age, universities should not close down for quite as many months of the year as they have done. Although a new term might be too revolutionary, I see no reason why we should not experiment with more weeks in the term.
  My last point is one mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern). We are
  1660
  very niggardly about adult education in Scotland. If we believe that the rôle of the university is to integrate itself in regional life and develop the cultural and educational life of a region, we must do more in this sphere. It may be adult education at an advanced level. It may be the bringing of professional men back to make them up to date on their subjects which they may have stopped studying 10 or 15 years ago. It may be refresher courses for married women who want to take up teaching or return to the university. It may be courses for non-graduates, the casualties of the age when it was not easy to get into the university, or youngsters who developed late.
  We must provide adult education. Many bodies can do it and should be used. Universities can do it well; they can provide adult education at the highest intellectual level. I urge the Minister to look into the question of more money being devoted to adult education, not only through existing associations and institutions but channelled through departments of extra-mural study at the universities. Adult education in this sense can bring many more people into touch with modern studies, though I do not say that all modern studies are better than old studies. I believe that adult education should keep its concern for the humanities. It can bring up into touch, for instance, with the arts and history. I have always believed that history gives us a sense of perception about the present and enriches and deepens our experience of life. Studies of old civilisations can improve and instruct us. I should like to see studies in the universities in the regions, bringing more people in touch with the educational and cultural life of Scotland.
  9.7 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: The noble Lady the Under-Secretary of State, who is to reply to the debate, does not want a full half hour, so we have, therefore, a fair amount of time to spread between us. Before I continue I should like to say that Scottish Members appreciate that an English Minister has stayed as long as the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of State for Education and Science has been listening to us.

  1661
  I am relieved that my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Dr. A. Thompson) made the speech he did. It has fallen to my lot, in the division of labour in this debate, to deal with higher education. Since the debate began I have had the feeling that I might seem to be a little out of touch, because, although a great many of the problems of the year have been concerned with university and other higher education, the bigger problems concerning other forms of education have remained. The bulk of the debate has been concerned with them.
  I should like to take up one or two matters in the sphere of higher education. The noble Lady will be prepared for that because a number of my hon. Friends have been raising these matters in Questions, and so on, for some time, and she and her colleagues know very well that we are concerned about a number of matters in the realm of the universities and the other higher education institutions.
  The point of view just expressed on so many key topics in higher education by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline Burghs is one which is very genial to me. As he went on with his speech, I found myself thinking that here was the matter being put that I wanted to put, but being put rather better and perhaps rather more economically than I could put it.
  I will try to avoid duplication, but I must go over the one matter that the Secretary of State dealt with in connection with the universities—the question of Ministerial responsibility. He will know from earlier evenings in the House that we are very dissatisfied about this, and I do not think that many of my hon. Friends will have found their dissatisfaction much decreased by what he said today.
  It does not seem to me that the right hon. Gentleman dealt with that point at all. I suppose there has been a slight advance, in that what we have always been met with before has been plain stonewalling. We have been told simply, "This is that", and that is about all. At least, he has varied that a little, and gone a little beyond it, but he has not taken up the points that we are really concerned about.
  The Robbins Report suggested that there should be two Ministers who were
  1662
  concerned with education—one with higher education and the other with lower. The decision of the Government on this point was deferred, as the Prime Minister explained, until public opinion could be consulted. Finally, the Prime Minister decided upon a single Minister for England and Wales. The Prime Minister and the Ministers concerned with the relevant Departments explained to the House that this decision was based on principle, and was not an expedient or a casual solution to a problem which just happened to be there and required to have something done about it.
  Under the old arrangement the universities were under the Treasury and the schools under the Ministry of Education. This was being changed, we were told, because the first principle was that school education cannot be separated from higher education. We were told that there was a continuous spectrum running from the primary school to what the Minister apologised for calling tertiary education. He need not have called it that. We knew what he meant.
  It was not we who argued this; it was the Minister's colleague. There is no need for him to put to us any contradiction, modification or diminution of that point of view. We accept this point of view and the importance of this principle, but it was not we who put it forward, or who took a decision on it; it was his Government—his own colleagues. We agree that there should be one Minister to preside over the junction between school education and higher education; one Minister—so far as it can be done by a Minister—to harmonise relations between one group of teachers and the other, one Minister to deal with questions of examination relations between the two groups, and so on.
  We accept that, because we realise that the job of teaching is a very important part of the work of the universities. Their other job—the job of inquiry—has tended to become rather more prominent in public statements than is necessary, and has tended to suggest that decisions about the future of the universities must depend on that and not mainly on the work of teaching institutions.

  1663
  This decision, made in respect of England and Wales and specifically stated to have been based on principle, was not applied to Scotland. That is our objection to this policy. On various occasions the Ministry has boasted that it has not applied it to Scotland. It has said that there has been no substantial change in Scotland and no alteration in the position of the Secretary of State. Ministers have told us that, and have appeared to pat themselves on the back when doing so, in spite of having congratulated themselves earlier for taking a new decision in principle for England and Wales.
  No reason was given why Scotland should be dealt with differently, until the right hon. Gentleman's first attempt this evening. I doubt whether many of us will find his arguments particularly convincing. We wonder just why this decision was reached for Scotland. "Consult the public", said the Prime Minister. When he made that announcement my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) asked him whom, among the Scottish public, he would consult, and she received no answer.
  We could ask that question again, because it is of importance, but I am certain that, once again, we would get no answer. We could hazard a fair guess at what the answer would be. It is, in part—and very likely in whole—that he has consulted the principals of the universities. I doubt very much whether, in Scotland, he consulted anyone else. The Scottish universities are perfectly content with this arrangement, so we are told. I can understand that. They did not want unification under one Ministry.
  I wonder how many of the principals and vice-chancellors of English and Welsh universities did want the unification with England and Wales. Has the right hon. Gentleman, with his colleagues, consulted other than the university authorities when dealing with the question in its English and Welsh aspects? I wonder, and I doubt, whether they consulted anyone outside the university authorities in Scotland. If the noble Lady can tell us that they did, I shall be very interested indeed to learn who they were, and what opinions they gave.
  1664
  The position of the Secretary of State is protected, in so far as words can protect it. The Minister of State restated it a few minutes ago, in a variation of what we have been accustomed to be told; that the Secretary of State will be consulted and will be kept in touch, and that kind of thing. One would expect that. One would hope that that sort of thing would not be overlooked.
  What we want is some Ministerial responsibility in a Scottish Minister, and this could be achieved. There is one particular and special question which illustrates the difficulty of not having achieved it and that is the position of the colleges of education. They are now under the Secretary of State for Scotland. They are to be under the Secretary of State for Education and Science, on the assumption that the changes suggested by Robbins go through. So not only are the universities and the schools in Scotland under separate Ministers, but the colleges of education and the schools in Scotland are under separate Ministers. The colleges of education could supply the teachers for the schools which use the schools as a training ground for their students, but they are to be under a separate Minister.
  These institutions supplying teachers to the Scottish schools will be, in fact, under the Minister who controls, among other things, the English and Welsh schools, but they will not be under the Minister who controls the Scottish schools. This seems to us quite paradoxical, and perhaps the most flagrant and most obvious instance of this policy—which, in general, is wrong—being clearly and obviously wrong.
  Mr. Noble: I thank the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to interrupt him. This is pure assumption. No such decision has been made.
  Mr. MacPherson: I think that I put in a phrase which suggested that I was aware that this rested on the way in which the Robbins recommendations were developed.
  Mr. Willis: It has never been said.
  Mr. Ross: We have never heard that said.
  Mr. MacPherson: That chorus from my hon. Friends makes clear what we feel.

  1665
  If the Minister had something in his mind about this he might have been more forthcoming.
  Mr. Willis: This is what we should have been speaking about earlier.
  Mr. MacPherson: When he spoke earlier the right hon. Gentleman dealt with the possibilities that occurred to him as alternatives to the present arrangement. He suggested that one or other of these might be what we wanted. Let me make clear that we do not want to separate the universities of England and Wales, on the one hand, and those of Scotland, on the other. They belong to the same community now and there does not appear to be a strong reason for breaking that community. We do not want, in the phrase of the right hon. Gentleman, to break the academic ties, and transfer the Scottish schools to the Minister of State for Education and Science for the United Kingdom.
  To take up another of his points, we do not think—just by the way—that Ministerial responsibility is the only way in which relations between schools and universities can be improved and helped. It is an important way, but certainly not the only way. We would like to keep the universities as one body and the U.G.C., too. We are not suggesting two U.G.C.s, although there has been in Scotland a number of people who have asked themselves whether two U.G.C.s would be a good thing, or whether we need a separate Scottish committee of the U.G.C., or something of that sort, and there has been by Mr. J. P. Mackintosh a suggestion for a separate Scottish Minister of Education.
  We do not want that. What we suggest is contained in the point made by my hon. Friend. I will put it perhaps a little more specifically than he did. We want ministerial responsibility in Scotland. The U.G.C. might well be responsible to the two Ministers together, the Minister of State for Education and Science and the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  This is not constitutionally impossible—indeed, it is constitutionally as easy as it could be—and it is not, presumably, practically impossible because one imagines that the two colleagues work closely enough together for friction not to develop and it recognises the special
  1666
  relationship between the Scottish Minister and Scottish educational institutions. It also, to some extent, expresses what I imagine will be a fairly clear opinion of the Scottish people when the dust settles over these changes.
  I do not believe that the Scottish people will be satisfied in a few years from now with the present situation. I do not believe that they will accept a position in which English and Welsh universities and schools are under one Minister, with the advantage that has been stated in principle, and the Scottish are not. I think that in the course of time, when the dust settles and the Scottish people see all these things clearly and as part of their ordinary daily life—things that they will become accustomed to—they will demand what we are asking for now, that there should be a unified control of the schools and universities in Scotland. If it is impossible to have the U.G.C. responsible jointly to the two Ministers in the way I have suggested, I hope that the noble Lady will say why.
  There are one or two other matters in connection with higher education that are fairly urgent and which my hon. Friends have raised, and I should like to say something about them. First, I should like to say a word about the new university. The importance of that is, of course, that a new university is coming to Scotland. We are concerned just now with the decision as to its location, but this is secondary. I should imagine that the citizens of all the competing places would think, first of all, that it is a good thing that Scotland should have a new university. This is the important thing.
  That being the case, it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues should have made it clear to the U.G.C. that it should be settled quickly where the new institution is to be located. There was no urgency about it, and except for the pressure of my hon. Friends I do not think that there would have been a decision anything like as early in the year as appears to be now likely. We were told that there was no priority.
  On 10th March, the Minister of State for Education and Science said that the U.G.C. had had to give priority to other things. He added that the new university
  "cannot make an appreciable contribution to the crash programme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1964; Vol. 691, c. 226.]

  1667
  Of course it cannot; it is too late. Therefore, it was not to get priority from the U.G.C., but why cannot it make an appreciable contribution to the crash programme? I have with me a report of the decision which was given in the Scotsman on 9th May, 1961. It is headed:
  "No Fifth University for Scotland."
  It says, in part:
  "There is to be no fifth university in Scotland. The University Grants Committee advised against it and Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, accepted their views. … Sir Keith Murray said last night that the question of a new university for Scotland was not altogether closed. The fact that universities could at present absorb the bulge did not rule out altogether the possibility."
  That is why it cannot do anything appreciable to help the present crash programme, because Ministers made a bad decision on bad advice a number of years ago, when hon. Members on this side of the Committee were pointing out that Scotland needed a fifth university, as it then would have been.
  We were supported by considerable informed Scottish opinion. The information on which the right decision was possible was in general available at that date, but we had to wait until the Robbins Committee reported. The Robbins Report has changed the picture completely by producing a different kind of advice based on fuller knowledge than the earlier advisers found it possible to give. We know that the U.G.C. has made a recommendation, but we do not know what it is. We await the decision of the Government.
  If the Ministers concerned accept the decision of the U.G.C., very well, Scotland, I have no doubt, will be satisfied, but the decision rests with the Ministers. If they take the recommendation of the U.G.C. and turn it down, and do so for a reason which is clear and recognised to be nationally important again, I think Scotland will understand. But if they take the recommendation of the U.G.C. and turn it down because of what is rumoured to be happening now, because of some kind of pressure lobby, they will be in for well-deserved criticism.
  There are two special questions I wish to ask about the new university. According to the Government there is to be one new medical school. We think that there
  1668
  should be more than one. Depending upon where it is located, will population needs around the new medical school be kept in mind in choosing a possible site for it? What kind of charter is it to have? Is it to have a charter which will meet the criticisms that have been levelled at some university charters, for example, by non-professorial staffs and others outside the universities?
  That leads to the next general topic on which I wish to speak. The charter for the new Strathclyde University has just emerged from the Privy Council. The draft of this charter, in accordance with the College Charters Act, 1871, was laid before this House. It escaped the eagle eye of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Hannan), who was on the look-out for it, but the final charter has not been laid. I understand that the final charter came from the Privy Council about a week ago. It has been published but, not merely has it not been laid in this House—I understand that there is no obligation to lay it, although I do not know why—it is not even available. I cannot get it from the Library. I have a copy of the draft charter, but the Library has not got the final charter.
  This is a little remiss of the Government. It is apparently a minor point, but it ought to have been before hon. Members, at least in the sense of being in the Library in time for this debate. The procedure in granting the charter for Strathclyde causes us a good deal of disquiet. In the Privy Council it was not referred to the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council, which includes not only Ministers but a number of distinguished laymen—not perhaps a very wide Committee, but it does not consist simply of Ministers. It was referred to a special committee which, as was explained in the House, means simply the Ministers acting together.
  Here they are acting together and producing to the House, with no discussion and no publicity except for laying the draft on the Table, a charter which may or may not be to the wishes of hon. Members, of members of the staff of the university concerned—apart from the senior members—and of the general public in Glasgow and elsewhere in Scotland or anyone else. In other

  1669
  words, we feel that this kind of procedure is a bit too narrow. Even if the draft charter had been noted by a number of hon. Members and something done about it when it lay on the Table of the House, hon. Members would have been in no different position from members of the public. On seeing the draft charter, anyone could have sent a petition about it to the U.G.C.
  The House has no particular right, no particular interest in the matter—and it is not as if there were any kind of readiness to accept radical ideas or new ideas of any kind. What is obvious in the procedure is a keeping of things away from the public and from the representatives of the public. I have not been able to look in detail at the draft charter, which is perhaps just as well, because it is only a draft and there may be changes in the final charter. But a glance at the draft charter does not reassure me greatly. Convocation, which is not a system with which I am familiar in other Scottish universities, is, under the draft charter, to include one representative of the trades houses of Glasgow and one representative of the merchant houses of Glasgow. The trades union council made recommendations about the draft charter. But there are no trade union representatives comparable with those of the trade and merchant house representatives.
  This is the draft; it may be altered in the final charter—I do not know. But this is the kind of thing which we on this side of the Committee do not like. It would be far better if this kind of thing were done openly so that the ideas going into the charter could be weighed and we could decide whether privileges were being perpetuated or whether an especially favoured group was being still more favoured, whether new ideas or old ideas were being accepted or rejected.
  I ask perhaps a rhetorical question—whether the Government comtemplate that the same kind of procedure would be used in connection with the charter for the new university. I hope not. I hope that we shall be assured that it will not be used by making a change in the people concerned.
  I must not spend time on the 1889 Act. It is clear that there are some good things in it and some not so good. There are some things in it which my
  1670
  hon. Friends and I like and some that other people like—and some which are just out of date. I am not quite sure which phrase my hon. Friend used, but he said much what I wanted to say: the 1889 Act is irrelevant at present. If it is repealed it should be replaced by something which will cover not simply the four older Scottish universities, but the whole group of Scottish universities. If it is amended, it should be amended sufficiently widely.
  The interest of the public should be, if it is at all possible, represented or expressed through whatever Act or amendment replaces the existing 1889 Act. I do not think that right hon. and hon. Members opposite or the universities need be at all afraid of the interest of the public. The public's interest in universities is legitimate and is now strong. From time to time I am surprised to discover how strong it is.
  The one particular point of which much has been made by my hon. Friends and myself, as well as by people outside the House of Commons, is the question of responsibility for student failures. This is a matter on which public interest ought to be satisfied, so far as is reasonably possible. Prospective students, parents and prospective parents, members of local authorities and the general public, have a right to know the facts. We should like information to be given about this. We do not particularly feel that it is a good thing to have it channelled and processed through the annual report or the quinquennial report of the U.G.C. It would be much better if it were given by individual institutions.
  This is one aspect of the increasing public interest in universities which the universities themselves and Ministers should accept is friendly, respectable and responsible. I do not think that the general public in Scotland take the universities lightly. They realise that as well as teaching the youngsters the universities are engaged on inquiries which may be of enormous importance for the future of mankind. They realise that universities are great institutions which shape much of the future of the people. The public is not likely to be casual about the universities. If the

  1671
  universities take steps to bring themselves rather more closely to the knowledge of the people, neither the people nor the universities themselves will regret it.
  9.37 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lady Tweedsmuir): When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State ended his speech at the start of the debate, he said he hoped this would be the start of a constructive discussion. We can all agree that it has been. Behind all the speeches, behind the criticisms and, once or twice, the party political points, hon. Members have shown a very genuine wish to do what they can to ensure that our educational system in Scotland shall be second to none.
  We in the House of Commons and those working outside must always remind ourselves of the responsibility resting on us to present to the Scottish people an accurate picture of what is going on in Scottish education. Sometimes too many self-questionings tend to give the outside world the impression that our education system is on the decline, and that I emphatically deny. If it is under strain, that strain arises not from decay but from the enormous effort to grapple with this era of rapid scientific, technological and social change.
  The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) spent nearly all his speech talking about the arrangements for ministerial responsibility in relation to universities. I am sure he will agree with me when I say that we all much appreciated the speech made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Dr. A. Thompson) and that many of us are very sorry that the hon. Gentleman has felt himself forced not to stand again at the next election. The hon. Gentleman made a very worthy contribution. In deciding on the arrangements as between Scotland and England for ministerial responsibility for higher education after the Robbins Report, the Government had this problem to face; they must, on the one hand, take account of the need for keeping the academic unity of the universities in Great Britain and the close association of the universities with science and the research councils and, on the other, take account
  1672
  of the differences between England and Scotland in other sectors of education. I suggest—and I shall amplify this—that the present arrangements are, in all the circumstances, the best practicable.
  The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs said that he did not wish to see two University Grants Committees, but both he and the hon. Member for Dunfermline Burghs seemed to suggest that it might be a better arrangement to have a Scottish Minister, perhaps a Scottish Minister of State, who would be primarily responsible in some way. I put it to them mat the Secretary of State for Scotland keeps his overall responsibility for higher education, as he did before, except that the universities remain, also as before, under the U.G.C. This Committee advises the Secretary of State for Education and Science on all universities in Great Britain and, of course, the Secretary of State for Scotland is in very close personal touch on all these questions of education as a whole. On the suggestion about colleges of education, put forward in Robbins, absolutely no decision has been taken on this whatever to date.
  It has been stated that under the new arrangements for ministerial responsibility, Scottish universities might be tempted to follow the lead of English universities in certain academic developments in a way which would be out of line with the schools system in Scotland and which would be prejudicial to the latter's interest. I do not agree with this because the Scottish universities have in the past shown themselves alive to the quite different approach to secondary education in Scotland from that in England. The Robbins Report showed their continuing attachment to broad general degree courses based on non-specialised secondary education as the basic aim of Scottish education. All the signs to date are that the universities favour the retention of the higher grade of the Scottish Certificate of Education as the basic entrance qualification for universities.
  It is not at all clear that ministerial control would be an effective or appropriate means of harmonising the development of schools and universities. The best way to keep policy in line is by other means than statutory measures or direct Ministerial interference with

  1673
  the development of individual universities. I suggest that this harmonsing can best be secured by arrangements for consultation between the universities and schools on subjects which are of common interest.
  A great deal of this is already happening in Scotland. For instance, we have the new Examination Board and in the committees on the development of the curriculum in chemistry, physics, mathematics and so on there is a great deal of close consultation and working together. I do not think that enough is known about the measures which are taken by individual universities and departments within universities to keep in touch with teachers at senior secondary schools. Groups meet all the time to discuss individual subjects and university staffs go to schools in some areas to discuss with potential university entrants the problems of transition from school to university. Short-term fellowships are offered to teachers to spend some months in study at the university. I therefore suggest that it is along these lines that the two sectors of education can be brought closer together and we, for our part, will do everything in our power to encourage this.
  The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs asked about the new university—
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: Before the noble Lady goes to that point, I follow what she has been saying—and I suppose that we shall just have to accept that the links between school and university will have to be forged in this way, and on those lines—but does she realise that we do not find any strength in the distinction that she makes between the Scottish situation and the English situation in this field?
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I realise that the hon. Gentleman himself is anxious about the situation, and that is exactly why I went to some length to explain it. However, I would very much like to pass on, as I have just under a quarter of an hour in which to deal with the rest of the debate—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) likes to interrupt from a sitting position.
  My right hon. Friend will be in a position to make an announcement about the location of the new university in Scot-
  1674
  land next week or, at the very latest, the week afterwards.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), very naturally, spent a good deal of time on the problem of teacher supply. She was absolutely right to do so, because the crucial factor in all advancement of our educational system is the degree to which the Government, the education authorities and the teachers work together. It can be said that in no country in the world does the teaching profession exercise as great an influence on the development of education as it does in Scotland.
  The hon. Lady said that there is no easy solution to the shortage of teachers, and that is perfectly true. Earlier, my right hon. Friend went over the various measures that we have been taking, and will continue to take, to increase the supply of teachers. As he said, the raising of the school leaving age in 1970–71 undoubtedly makes the problem of teacher supply even more critical, and this has been rightly stressed by hon. Members on both sides. I do not intend to go over the same points that my right hon. Friend made, but I think that we have to be clear about the types of teacher whom we should be training to meet the requirements of those pupils—about 65 per cent. of any age group—who are not following courses leading to presentation for the Scottish Certificate of Education.
  I suggest that this is the whole crux of the matter. We are in consultation with the Scottish Council for the Training of Teachers, but it is perfectly obvious that we need the help in the very fullest measure, not only of the education authorities but also of teachers' associations. I should like to refer to the speech made by Mr. Kenneth Macdonald at the recent annual meeting of the E.I.S. just before he demitted office as President of the Institute. Talking of teacher supply, he said:
  "This may require … a rethinking of many previously accepted beliefs by us and by others."
  He went on to talk of the important part which the teachers as a profession must play, and he called for
  "… practical wisdom in the consideration of this problem."
  If I may say so, I would suggest that that is a very constructive and wise

  1675
  remark from a leader of the teaching profession.
  The hon. Lady quoted certain figures which came from the Fourth Report of the Departmental Committee on Supply. Those have now been overtaken because, without attempting to take into account the extra numbers which would be necessary with the raising of the school-leaving age, the Robbins Committee estimated that if its recommendations were carried out, as they will be, the overall shortage would fall to 300 by 1970, and that there would be a surplus of 3,800 teachers by 1975. On the assumption that some 4,000 teachers will be needed for the raising of the school-leaving age there will, of course, on Robbins estimates, be a shortage of 4,300 in 1970, but not of 7,000 as I think the hon. Lady said, and this should disappear at the present rate of recruitment by 1976, or 1977 at the latest.
  Miss Herbison: Do the figures which the noble Lady has now quoted mean that consideration has been given to the lowering of the size of classes and to a great expansion in the provision for further education for those who leave school at the school-leaving age?
  Lady Tweedsmuir: We have not at the moment come to any decision about altering the code on the size of school classes. We do not think that that would be responsible at the present time.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Woodside (Mr. Carmichael), whose speech I regret I did not hear, advocated allowances for particular schools to try to meet this teacher shortage, but I understand that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern) criticised the proposal to pay allowances in certain parts only of Glasgow and said that we ought to pay an extra £50 allowance to all Glasgow teachers. But there is a higher proportion of uncertificated teachers in Lanarkshire than there is in Glasgow and this shows the difficulty of confining an allowance to Glasgow alone. This is why the Scottish Joint Council has suggested, and we have accepted, that there should be a further examination of this problem to see whether any solution can be found.
  There has been a good deal of criticism recently of the employment of uncertifi-
  1676
  cated teachers and I should like to give some of the facts. Last October, there were 2,425 uncertificated teachers in full-time employment, and of these almost 2,000 had some qualification or experience which fitted them for this work. About 1,050 of the 2,000 were mainly engaged in teaching subjects like music, homecraft, and technical and commercial subjects, and they were skilled practitioners of the subject or craft which they were teaching. Although they had had no professional training, many of them had a long experience of teaching. Over 300, although untrained and not graduates, had achieved the standard of general education testified by the possession of one or more degree passes or the equivalent.
  Over 200 were graduates who had not had professional training, but many of these were experienced teachers. Some were from England and Wales, where graduates may be recognised as qualified teachers without training. Finally, there were some 350 trained teachers, although they had not obtained or were ineligible for a Scottish certificate. These included some who had recently arrived in Scotland and who had applied for but had not received certification. Some were young teachers from the Commonwealth who intended to spend only a year or so in Scotland.
  There were also within this group non-graduate men teachers fully trained in England and Wales, but who, because they were men, were not eligible for certification in Scotland. There were also non-graduate women teachers trained south of the Border and not yet eligible for certification in Scotland. Only one-fifth of the uncertificated teachers had on paper qualifications below standard, but, while the Scottish certificate is a guarantee of competence to teach, and, obviously, it would be a good thing if all could have it, nevertheless it does not mean that all those who do not have a certificate are incompetent to teach. Indeed, the education authority often finds that they are by any standard teachers of quite considerable excellence.
  Various hon. Members have raised the question of school building and investment. I would only say that the main figure—the annual public expenditure on education for which my right hon. Friend is responsible—was £135 million in 1963

  1677
  against £43 million in 1951. This represents an increase from £8 per head to £26 per head of the population of Scotland, which is to say that in money terms we have trebled our expenditure over a period of 12 years. When we allow for the fall in the value of money, it is still true that there has been in real terms a doubling of our national expenditure on education.
  Therefore, the increase even on school building year by year has been uninterrupted since 1951. In fact, we are now doing three times as much work in real terms as we were doing in 1951. I therefore say to those hon. Members who are concerned about their particular building problems that I certainly recognise that we must have an overall control of investment, but what we want now is to improve the rate of our building. We have gone very far with expenditure on our building, but we are a good deal slower in what we complete in Scotland than we are south of the Border.
  Many hon. Members have made some most interesting points which I will study again in HANSARD and I will write to each one whom I have not been able to answer personally.
  In conclusion, may I say that I have tried to show that the Government are
  giving far more of their material resources to education, but we shall not get the value for the money we are going to spend unless all those in education believe in it and are ready to adapt their thinking and their methods to the fast changing world. As Robbins said, talking of higher education, though it applies to all:
  "Public opinion will not support the cost unless teachers are actuated by a high sense of professional obligation and students by a corresponding sense of obligation to work."
  Above all, if there is any lesson to be drawn from experience in education in the past and in this debate it is, I suggest, the need for us all, in tackling the demand in this half of the twentieth century, to be swift to adapt to change. Despite the difficulties in education in Scotland, it is true that never before in the history of our country have the chances to learn been so great, and I am proud to have been a member of a Government which has played such a large share in it.
  Miss Herbison: Since the pride of the noble Lady is not shared in many places in Scotland, I beg to move, That Item Class III, Vote 2 (Scottish Home and Health Department), be reduced by £5.
  Question put:—
  The Committee divided: Ayes 136, Noes 196.

  Division No. 127.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Albu, Austen

  Fitch, Alan

  Kelley, Richard

  Alldritt, W. H.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Foley, Maurice

  King, Dr. Horace

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Bellenger, Ht. Hon. F. J.

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Bence, Cyril

  Forman, J. C.

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Lubbock, Eric

  Benson, Sir George

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Blackburn, F.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  MacColl, James

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S. W.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  MacDermot, Niall

  Bowles, Frank

  Greenwood, Anthony

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Boyden, James

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

  Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  McLeavy, Frank

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Carmichael Neil

  Hayman, F. H.

  Manuel, Archie

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

  Mareh, Richard

  Chapman, Donald

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Millan, Bruce

  Cliffe, Michael

  Holman, Percy

  Milne, Edward

  Collick, Percy

  Houghton, Douglas

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hoy, James H.

  Monslow, Walter

  Cronin, John

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Moody, A. S.

  Crosland, Anthony

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Mulley, Frederick

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  O'Malley, B. K.

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Owen, Will

  Darling, George

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Padley, W. E.

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Paget, R. T.

  Delargy, Hugh

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Dempsey, James

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Parker, John

  Diamond, John

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Doig, Peter

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Peart, Frederick

  Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Pentland, Norman

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Probert, Arthur

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Whitlock, William

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Rankin, John

  Steele, Thomas

  Willey, Frederick

  Redhead, E. C.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Stonehouse, John

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Rodgere, W. T. (Stockton)

  Swain, Thomas

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Ross, William

  Swingler, Stephen

  Woof, Robert

  Short, Edward

  Symonds, J. B.

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Silkin, John

  Taverne, D.

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Mr. Lawson and Mr. McCann.

  Small, William

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  NOES

  Allason, James

  Goodhew, Victor

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

  Gough, Frederick

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Anderson, D. C.

  Green, Alan

  Peel, John

  Arbuthnot, Sir John

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Pitman, Sir James

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Barter, John

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Batsford, Brian

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Price, David (Eastleight)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Pym, Francis

  Bidgood, John C.

  Hastings, Stephen

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Biffen, John

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. Sir Peter

  Bingham, R. M.

  Henderson, Sir John (Cathcart)

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Bishop, Sir Patrick

  Hendry, Forbes

  Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

  Renton, Rt. Hon. David

  Bossom, Hon. Clive

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Box, Donald

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Quintin

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Holland, Philip

  Roots, William

  Braine, Bernard

  Hopkins, Alan

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Sharples, Richard

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Shepherd, William

  Buck, Antony

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Iremonger, L.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Speir, Rupert

  Campbell, Gordon

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Stodart, J. A.

  Carr, Rt. Hon. Robert (Mitcham)

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Chataway, Christopher

  Kirk, Peter

  Tapsell, Peter

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Teeling, Sir William

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Temple, John M.

  Corfield, F. V.

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Costain, A. P.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

  Coulson, Michael

  Lloyds, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Longden, Gilbert

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Curran, Charles

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Currie, G. B. H.

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Turner, Colin

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  McLaren, Martin

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Dance, James

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Maddan, Martin

  Walder, David

  Doughty, Charles

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Walker, Peter

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Alec

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

  Drayson, G. B.

  Marshall, Sir Douglas

  Ward, Dame Irene

  du Cann, Edward

  Marten, Neil

  Webster, David

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Maude, Angus (Stratford-on-Avon)

  Whitelaw, William

  Elliott, R. W. (Newc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Wise, A. R.

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Foster, Sir John

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Woodhouse, Hon. Christopher

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Gammans, Lady

  Neave, Airey

  Worsley, Marcus

  Gardner, Edward

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Gibson Watt, David

  Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

  Giles, Read-Admiral Morgan

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Hendon, North)

  Mr. Chichester-Clark and

  Mr. Finlay.

  Original Question again proposed.
  Sir Stephen McAdden Sir Stephen McAdden (Southend, East) rose—
  It being after Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That the Proceedings on the Malicious Damage Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]

  MALICIOUS DAMAGE BILL
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT 1949 (AMENDMENT) [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of this Session to amend subsections (1)(e) and (3)(a) of section 12 of the Representation of the People Act 1949 so as to enable persons temporarily absent from their qualifying address to vote as absent voters, it is expedient to authorise—

  (1) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any increase attributable to the said Act of this Session in the sums payable out of that Fund under section 20 of the said Act of 1949;

  (2) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the said Act of this Session—

  (a) in the sums payable by way of General Grant, Rate-Deficiency Grant or Exchequer Equalisation Grant under the enactments relating to local government in England and Wales or in Scotland;

  (b) in the sums payable under section 43(2) of the said Act of 1949 out of moneys so provided.—[Mr. Brooke.]

  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS [1st July]
  Resolution reported,
  DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES
  That it is expedient to authorise such charges to income tax and estate duty as may arise from replacing existing diplomatic privileges and immunities by those provided for by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
  Resolution read a Second time.
  Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 90 (Ways and Means Motions and Resolutions), and agreed to.

  EDUCATION [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to enable county schools and voluntary schools to be established for providing full-time education by reference to age-limits differing from those specified in the Education Act 1944, as amended by the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1948, and to enable maintenance allowances to be granted in respect of pupils at special schools who would be over compulsory school age, or, in Scotland, over school age, but for section 38 (1) of the said Act of 1944 or section 32 (4) of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962, it is expedient to authorise any increase attributable to the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under any other enactment.
  Resolution agreed to.

  CIVIL AIRCRAFT (SUPERSONIC BOOM)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]
  10.12 p.m.
  Dr. Jeremy Bray: I wish to raise on the Adjournment the question of the boom from supersonic civil aircraft. It will help the House if we get clear from the beginning what kind of boom we are talking about. When any aircraft flies faster than sound it makes a bang on all points along its flight path and for 20 miles on either side, creating a continuous disturbance throughout its flight. This bang is a characteristic double bang, one being separated from another by only a few miliseconds. It is, therefore, easily distinguishable from any other type of explosion the public may hear.

  1683
  The loudness of the bang depends upon the height, speed and weight of the aircraft making the noise. Certainly, at low altitudes and high speeds, the bang can cause very serious damage to both persons and property, and it has done so in many parts of the world. There is no suggestion that supersonic airliners should fly under such conditions as to make such severe bangs as this. At the other extreme, the bang may be so slight that it is lost against the background noise. In these circumstances, one would expect no complaint.
  The problem arises, however, of the intermediate levels—in technical terms, in the ½ lb.—2 lb. per sq. ft. increase in normal atmospheric pressure. In these conditions, the bang sounds like a clap of thunder a few miles away, loud enough to distract attention and to wake people—shift workers, children, Members of Parliament and such like—to make people sit up, perhaps to frighten children and, perhaps, even to delight the aerodynamicist who designed the aircraft. It is in this intermediate range that the boom from the Concord airliners will fall. I am satisfied that the designers of the Concord have sought to minimise the effect of the boom at the flying altitude and speed at which the aircraft will operate. It is obviously in their interests. It also minimises the drag on the aircraft.
  It is true that the exact effect of the Concord boom is not known, but if it may be a little more of a "whoomf" and less of a "crack" than the boom from a Lightning, it is true that the change of pressure lasts for a rather longer time and so the secondary effects in shaking windows and doors and glass and so on will probably be greater than those experienced with lighter aircraft. So we know broadly the picture of what we can expect.
  What we have to do, therefore, is to weigh the slight increase in convenience to air travellers against the deterioration in the environment of the whole community. It is not a question of what the aeronautical world, the aviation industry and the airlines can get away with, though these are the terms, I am afraid, in which aeronautical people sometimes talk. We are not a Fascist country, and we have to strike
  1684
  a genuine balance of advantage for the community as a whole.
  If we look at how the Concord might be operated, on the London-New York flight there is no need for the aircraft to go supersonic until it gets well over the sea and no need for any boom to be heard over land at all. But on flights into Europe, to the Middle East, the Far East, South-East Asia, Australia and Africa, not to mention inside the North American Continent, substantial parts of the routes, the main trunk routes of the world, are over land, and if we want to fly over other people's territory we must expect other people to want to fly over ours at supersonic speeds. We must expect, in particular, flights from Northern Europe to America to pass over Britain.
  The only estimate that I have seen of the numbers of flights likely to be involved is that 20 Concords may well be operating on these routes, making an average of three flights a day—which means 60 booms a day over Britain. If these are spread over three bands across the country, we might expect 15 million people to hear a bang about every half hour.
  It is argued sometimes that people must just get used to the bangs as we have got used to traffic noise. But there is a big difference in that every member of the community both benefits and suffers more or less continuously from traffic and the nuisance and the benefits that it conveys. But for aircraft only a tiny proportion of the population flies, and that for only a tiny proportion of the time. Even in America today there are only 33 passenger flights a year for every 100 of the population, and these are probably made by less than 5 per cent. of the population. Therefore, the flying community is very small, and it is likely to remain so for many years.
  But it is said that flying is on the increase. Very well. What will be the situation if every person in Britain makes one Concord flight a year over land? If the bang is heard by an average of 5 million people, everyone will have to listen to 50,000 bangs a year, or a bang every four minutes during the day, which will amount virtually to a continuous thunderstorm.

  1685
  It hardly seems worth it for the convenience of knocking a couple of hours off the flight to Istanbul once a year. So supersonic overland flying, whether for the whole population, which is out of the question, or for a privileged minority, exhibits really the most atrocious manners.
  Fortunately for the Concord, the range and the fuel consumption per mile are more or less the same whether the aircraft is flying at subsonic or supersonic speeds. Therefore, mixed sea and land stages are possible. On a flight to Sydney, for example, if a speed restriction is applied over land to subsonic speeds, the flight will take 21½ hours, compared with a wholly supersonic flight of 16 hours. The increase in cost which would occur because the aircraft was occupied for a longer time would be about 20 per cent., which is hardly an insuperable economic obstacle.
  Certainly if there were a restriction to supersonic flight only over the sea there would be an economic penalty in the number of aircraft ordered, but it has been estimated that the market would still provide a demand for 130 Concords, which is substantially more than is now hoped will be needed to reach a breakeven point in the numbers manufactured.
  While nothing can be done about the kind of boom we can expect from the Concord, it is not true that supersonic flight always causes a bang. For example, the satellites do not cause an audible bang on earth, nor at any stage in their flight. The exact height and, consequently, the speed at which a bang would not be heard upon the surface of the earth is not known, but no doubt it will be found in due course, although not during the lifetime of the Concord. Indeed, there are aero-dynamic shapes which can pass through the atmosphere at supersonic speeds, even at a low altitude, without causing a boom at all—swallowing their own boom as they go.
  In the House this evening my objective is not to knock the Concord. I support the project wholeheartedly, and I wish it every success and look forward to flying in it. But the Government should be warned, and should warn quite unmistakably the aircraft industry and the airlines, that supersonic flight overland is just not on, and that there will be a
  1686
  very strong public reaction once the public begin to experience the effect of the boom on their daily lives.
  The Oklahoma City tests are only one stage less naïve than some of the tests carried out by the Ministry of Aviation itself, by which it is true it sets no great store. They consist of exploding charges suspended from a balloon over an explosive research establishment, where the local community makes its living out of the bangs. The more bangs the greater the pay packet. Whatever tests are made are bound to be synthetic, and we have to use our ordinary human and political nous as to the total balance of advantage to the whole community.
  I want to make two specific suggestions. First, since the Ministry of Aviation is an interested party—bearing in mind the fact that the scientists and engineers involved have given their lives to this project for the past 20 years they are passionately involved and rightly so—the problem of the supersonic boom should be handed to a Ministry which is used to weighing delicate questions of social and public amenity. I suggest that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government is well equipped to do this. I do not think that it would want such a hot potato, or that the Ministry of Aviation would be very keen to hand it over, but I am sure that in the interests of good Government this would provide a fairer and, in the long term, more helpful assessment of the problem for all concerned.
  Secondly, I suggest that it should be specifically stated that supersonic flight overland for the Concord is not on, and that any further planning of the project which is now under way, relating to modifications, flight testing and production, should be made on the assumption that supersonic flight overland will not be acceptable in this country or elsewhere.
  This is a question for Britain. It will face us before it faces the United States. As for France, I cannot help feeling that de Gaulle would feel that the bigger the bang the better. What more glorious symbol of the power of France than a French boom—albeit an Anglo-French boom—circumnavigating the globe, going into every hut, skyscraper and home. But this is not the way that Britain behaves. This is a difficult question for

  1687
  any Government, but it is literally too explosive merely to slide over. If this Government or their successors do not grasp this nettle, with all the international and technical complications involved, I suggest that it will be for this House, in its duty to protect the interests of the community and the established rights of the whole population, to pass a Private Member's Bill, prohibiting civil airliners from making supersonic bangs over Britain.
  10.25 p.m.
  Mr. Rupert Speir: I do not seek to intervene for long in this necessarily brief debate. It is obvious that this subject will have to be discussed more fully in the House in the near future.
  I should like to thank the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) for raising this very important subject. He has directed attention to a horrifying new threat to life in this modern world. It is a menace which will very soon face us all in Britain. Today, it faces particularly people living in rural Britain.
  After what has been happening lately, I am not now surprised that when I piloted the noise abatement Act through the House, a year or two ago, the Ministry of Aviation was determined and emphatic that aircraft and aerodromes should be excluded from its provisions. As America has already discovered, and we in Britain are now to discover, the supersonic bang problem is very much more serious and worse than we ever feared that it would be.
  In recent weeks, in rural areas in the north of England, we have suffered from the sound barrier having been broken on at least a dozen occasions. The dreadful and worrying thing, I think, is that no one knows just how much damage the resulting shock waves have done to life, both human and animal, or to property—to foundations, walls, roof tiles and panes of glass. I do not suppose that we ever shall know exactly how much damage these shock waves do cause. We know that the damage has been quite considerable already. Some of it is obvious and some is hidden. Some of the damage is open for anyone to see, but a great deal will remain secret for many years to come.
  We also know that although the Americans now consider that a shock
  1688
  wave of even 1½ lb. per sq. ft. is excessive, the Ministry of Aviation is calmly authorising fights to take place at supersonic speed overland in Britain which give rise to shock waves 25 per cent. above the level which the Americans now consider the maximum which should be allowed. I consider that this position is pretty well intolerable. It is unacceptable and monstrous that the Ministry of Aviation should decide that during the next 12 weeks no fewer than 75 supersonic flights should take place overland in Britain without a full knowledge of all the consequences and side effects that these supersonic flights may well cause.
  I understand—I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to comment on this if he can—that some of these flights will take place at heights below 35,000 ft. I say emphatically that supersonic flights generally ought to take place only over the sea. If, for a special experimental reason, they must take place overland, arrangements should be made for them to take place somewhere abroad, over sparsely populated country. I consider that the Ministry of Aviation is treating this problem far too casually. If the Minister will not accept some limitations he will find that the whole of rural Britain is up in arms, and on this occasion I think that rural Britain will win the fight, and will deserve to win it.
  10.29 p.m.
  Mr. John Cronin: I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) on having raised this subject and on the lucid way that he explained the problem. The Opposition have always supported the Concord project. We always support any opportunity to deploy the technical resources of Britain, and to help our prosperity and give increased employment to the aircraft industry. But we have given our support always with reservations. One principle reservation has been in respect of the amount of noise which is likely to be generated by supersonic aircraft.
  There is no evidence so far that this noise problem has been overcome or is likely to be overcome in the immediate future. It would seem that there is danger that hundreds of thousands may be grossly inconvenienced in giving increased speed of travel to a few dozen people each time there is a supersonic

  1689
  bang. We regard such a situation as quite intolerable. Mr. Halaby, who in the United States is the equivalent to our Minister of Aviation, said a few weeks ago:
  "We do not think the President should be asked to sanction our proceeding with the supersonic transport without some knowledge of this problem."
  He was referring to the supersonic boom. These are very grave words on the matter of supersonic transport.
  I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will give us a comprehensive reply to the points put by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West. I hope he will tell us what is to be done about the Concord. Is it to be confined to operating only over the Atlantic? If so, will it be economically viable? Perhaps he will also take the opportunity to tell us the revised estimate of the supersonic aircraft. There has been evidence to suggest that the cost will be more than the £180 million originally budgeted for.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman will tell us to what extent this enormous investment is likely to be jeopardised by the problem of the supersonic boom.
  10.32 p.m.
  Mr. Timothy Kitson: I endorse the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir). I, like him, have a very sparsely populated constituency. In fact, mine is the most sparsely populated in England, and the Ministry of Aviation makes far too many tests over it. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to say how those who suffer damage are to be compensated.
  In a dales area, such as Wensleydale, Swallowdale and Teesdale, where roofs are of stone, damage is considerable. Damage is not so much due to Concord tests as Lightning tests. It is absolutely essential that these tests should be made over sea or over land abroad much more sparsely populated than my constituency. If there are 75 supersonic tests during the next 12 weeks the number of letters we shall receive from constituents will be prohibitive. I hope that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will explain how compensation can be granted to individuals.
  10.33 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. Neil Marten):
  In the few minutes left to me, I am afraid that I cannot give a comprehensive reply to the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin). Perhaps, on a future occasion, we can have a further debate on this extremely important subject.
  I am glad that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) has raised this subject. We can regard this debate as a cocktail to quite an orgy. He has drawn attention to what undoubtedy will be a very important factor in the operation of civil supersonic transport aircraft, and one which I can assure the House the Government are taking most seriously. We have already done a vast amount of work on the subject of the boom, and we shall continue our researches and experiments with the utmost vigour.
  As the hon. Member said, when aircraft fly at supersonic speeds they create a sound wave, just as a ship moving through the water creates a bow wave. From an aircraft there are two waves, one from the nose and one from the tail. Sometimes the double wave merges and we get a single boom. The loudness of the noise depends on a variety of factors—proximity of the actual flight path, the height of the aircraft and its size, atmospheric conditions, ground topography and so on. Our latest findings tend to indicate that the rate at which the pressure rises—and so affects the eardrums—may be more important than the actual degree of over-pressure measured. The noise heard on the ground may also vary with different aircraft. As the hon. Member said, it is sometimes a "woof" and sometimes a bang.
  I have listened to a series of bangs I went to Aberporth, in Cardiganshire, and had a whole series of these bangs made over me. The over-pressure which was measured on that occasion was between 1½ and 2½ lbs. per sq. ft. I listened to these bangs both out of doors and indoors, and I must say that I did not find them particularly worrying or alarming. But that is me—and it is a subjective matter. At about 2 lbs. per sq. ft. my reaction was that it was rather

  1691
  like an explosion which one would hear from a stone quarry about a mile away.
  I think that it is important that we should not, by this debate, generate any alarmist thoughts about the problem. In my view, it is something which people will learn to live with—and I do not agree with the hon. Member here—just as they have learned to live over the last 100 years with railways, motor cars and jet aircraft.
  Dr. Bray: Will the Minister mention his attitude to the imbalance between the number of people who are inconvenienced and the number who will be benefited?
  Mr. Marten: This is all part of the research which is going on and which will go on before the Concord comes into service. We shall be studying that in great detail.
  I want to tell the House what is being done on this matter, because it does not seem to be known by the public at large. The Royal Aircraft Establishments at Farnborough and Bedford have been working on it for some time. Considerable theoretical work has been done in predicting the waveforms and the overpressures which can be expected from supersonic flight. This has been substantiated by wind-tunnel measurements and by measurements on the ground from Lightning aircraft—sometimes over Hexham, I am afraid—in flight.
  The hon. Member said that only the Ministry of Aviation is responsible. In fact, the Applied Psychology Research Unit of the Medical Research Council has been studying this question at Cambridge. It has been studying the relative annoyance of sonic booms and ordinary aircraft noise and it is engaged in studying the effect of sonic booms on working efficiency. In addition, the University of Southampton has been investigating the importance of waveform characteristics. The National Physical Laboratory has been examining noise levels indoors, and it is following up the work done by Southampton University with more elaborate experiments. The work is not restricted to the Ministry of Aviation, which I agree has, or ought to have, a vested interest in the matter.
  The Royal Aircraft Establishment has carried out an exercise over a three-
  1692
  month period to find out the subjective reaction of a community to explosive noise similar to that of the sonic boom, and it has concluded that people do get used to it to some extent. Measurements are being made to determine variations in sonic boom over-pressures caused by meteorological conditions. This is one of the varying factors. At the same time, the Americans are carrying out their tests over Oklahoma, and they hope to conclude these tests in August. When he was in America earlier this year my right hon. Friend visited Oklahoma, where these tests are being carried out. He told me that the main controversy, about which we have read in the newspapers, was not so much about the bangs themselves as about the political issue of whether and where the tests should be carried out.
  Certainly, Oklahoma is a very important experiment which the Americans are carrying out, and we and our French partners in the Concord project are in close touch with the Americans about it. We have already received certain preliminary information, and I have a booklet here which I will let the hon. Member read if he is interested. We shall be receiving the remainder of the information on the work which they are doing, but until the tests have been completed and thoroughly analysed it is premature to start trying to draw deductions from them. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham claimed that the Americans had said that 1½ lb. per sq. ft. pressure was unacceptable. I do not think that they have yet come to such a conclusion. Many of us have seen various newspaper articles commenting on the tests, and this may be what my hon. Friend had in mind. These inevitably give only very partial reports, and I suggest that it is important not to be swayed one way or another by them.
  The important thing is to await the full analysis of the tests and to relate them to our own knowledge of the subject. Only when that has been done shall we be in a position to decide whether we should carry out a large-scale experiment of this sort in this country. At that stage we shall bring in other Government Departments, as the hon. Member suggested, and we shall have to consider how we should handle the social survey, which we should have

  1693
  to make and which would be a necessary part of the experiment. I am grateful to the hon. Member for having raised the point, which I note, and which will be given further consideration when the time arises. I can assure the House that we would consult fully with the local authorities in any areas which might be involved.
  Mr. Kitson: What about compensation?
  Mr. Marten: I will write to my hon. Friend. [An HON. MEMBER: "Get it on record."] If the hon. Member will put down a Question I will answer it and, that way, it will be on the record. There are well laid down procedures and compensation is paid.
  From the point of view of this country, aircraft operating out of our airports will almost always be over the sea before they go supersonic and we shall mainly be concerned with supersonic overflights.
  1694
  With respect to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West, I think that the figures which he gave were rather exaggerated. We have power to control the routes and heights of aircraft overflying this country.
  I hope that I have said enough to show that both we and the French are taking this aspect of the Concord's development very seriously. We are both doing a great deal of research on the problem, and this will continue. We certainly have no intention whatever that the Concord should be operated in such a manner as to become a positive nuisance to those areas over which it passes. On the contrary, it is our firm intention to develop this aircraft so that it will fit satisfactorily into the pattern of living of the 1970s and 1980s.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Reactors
  Reactors
  Universities (Scotland) Act 1889
  Universities (Scotland) Act 1889
  Medical Research
  Medical Research
  Scientific Documentation (Research)
  Scientific Documentation (Research)
  Youth Service
  Youth Service
  National Chemical Laboratory (Resignations)
  National Chemical Laboratory (Resignations)
  Teachers, Essex (Religious Instruction)
  Teachers, Essex (Religious Instruction)
  Forensic Pathologists
  Forensic Pathologists
  Falmouth Art School
  Falmouth Art School
  Teachers (Pay)
  Teachers (Pay)
  Diploma in Art and Design
  Diploma in Art and Design
  World Health Research Centre (Biologists)
  World Health Research Centre (Biologists)
  Universities (Building Programme)
  Universities (Building Programme)
  New Universities (Cornwall)
  New Universities (Cornwall)
  Education in Advanced Technology (North-East)
  Education in Advanced Technology (North-East)
  Motor Vehicles (Suppression of Fumes)
  Motor Vehicles (Suppression of Fumes)
  Independent Schools
  Independent Schools
  Schools and Technical Colleges (Television Sets)
  Schools and Technical Colleges (Television Sets)
  National Physical Laboratory (Autonomics Division)
  National Physical Laboratory (Autonomics Division)
  Universities (Residential Accommodation Grants)
  Universities (Residential Accommodation Grants)
  Sixth Form Colleges
  Sixth Form Colleges
  West Suffolk
  West Suffolk
  National Academic Awards (Council)
  National Academic Awards (Council)
  Victoria and Albert Museum (Attendances)
  Victoria and Albert Museum (Attendances)
  Research and Expenditure
  Research and Expenditure
  Lichfield and Tamworth
  Lichfield and Tamworth
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Juvenile Delinquency and Hooliganism
  Juvenile Delinquency and Hooliganism
  Criminal Law Revision Committee (False Pretences)
  Criminal Law Revision Committee (False Pretences)
  Bows and Arrows (Injuries)
  Bows and Arrows (Injuries)
  Transport House (Disturbances)
  Transport House (Disturbances)
  Epidemics (Compensation)
  Epidemics (Compensation)
  Irish Nationals
  Irish Nationals
  Prisoners (Segregation)
  Prisoners (Segregation)
  Elections (Finances of Political Parties)
  Elections (Finances of Political Parties)
  Public Holidays
  Public Holidays
  King's Avenue, Chadwell Heath (Complaint)
  King's Avenue, Chadwell Heath (Complaint)
  Southern Rhodesians
  Southern Rhodesians
  Greek Cypriots
  Greek Cypriots
  German Unexploded Bombs
  German Unexploded Bombs
  Vehicles (Road Fund Licences)
  Vehicles (Road Fund Licences)
  Petticoat Lane and Club Row (Street Gaming)
  Petticoat Lane and Club Row (Street Gaming)
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Gas, Electricity and Coal Boards (Financial Objectives)
  Gas, Electricity and Coal Boards (Financial Objectives)
  Nuclear Power
  Nuclear Power
INDUSTRY, TRADE AND REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT
  Gateshead
  Gateshead
  Morecambe Bay Barrage Scheme
  Morecambe Bay Barrage Scheme
  North British Locomotive Company
  North British Locomotive Company
  Steel Price Agreements
  Steel Price Agreements
HOSPITALS
  Geriatric Beds
  Geriatric Beds
  Specialist Services, Cornwall
  Specialist Services, Cornwall
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Polaris Missiles (Warheads)
  Polaris Missiles (Warheads)
EMPLOYMENT
  Commonwealth Immigrants
  Commonwealth Immigrants
RAILWAYS
  Branch Lines (Closures)
  Branch Lines (Closures)
  Unstaffed Halts
  Unstaffed Halts
ROADS
  Straight Road, Old Windsor (Accidents)
  Straight Road, Old Windsor (Accidents)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Multilateral Force (Nuclear Weapons)
  Multilateral Force (Nuclear Weapons)
SCOTLAND
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889
  Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Trade and Industry (Donations to Schools)
  Trade and Industry (Donations to Schools)
  Disarmament (Economic Consequences)
  Disarmament (Economic Consequences)
  ANGLO-NORWEGIAN FISHERY AGREEMENT (TALKS)
  ANGLO-NORWEGIAN FISHERY AGREEMENT (TALKS)
  UNITED NATIONS (SOUTH AFRICA)
  UNITED NATIONS (SOUTH AFRICA)
THE RHODESIAS AND NYASALAND
  Government Aid
  Government Aid
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Retirement Pensioners (Increments)
  Retirement Pensioners (Increments)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Bristol Corporation (Grants)
  Bristol Corporation (Grants)
HOUSING
  Bristol
  Bristol

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark

LORD CHANCELLOR'S VISIT TO MALAWI
3.5 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make a personal statement. In my capacity as Lord Chancellor, I have been invited to lead the United Kingdom Government delegation to the Malawi independence celebrations in Blantyre and Zomba at the beginning of next week. I hope your Lordships will consider that it is right that I should have accepted this invitation and taken the opportunity of representing the Government at the celebrations. This visit will involve my leaving London next Saturday morning, July 4, and, all being well, I hope to be back on the morning of the following Thursday, July 9. This means, therefore, that I shall miss only three sitting days of the House. Accordingly, I ask your Lordships to agree to my being absent from my place on the Woolsack during that time.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for giving us this notice to the House, and we quite agree.

SCHOOLS' COMBINED CADET FORCES
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether financial assistance from the Ministry of Defence to Combined Cadet Forces in schools is dependent on membership of the Forces being compulsory.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD): My Lords, the grants paid to contingents of the Combined Cadet Forces are not dependent on membership being compulsory. Combined Cadet Forces regulations state that the C.C.F. is a voluntary and part-time force.

COUNTY COURT SENTENCES AND SOCIAL INQUIRIES
3.7 p.m.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the substantial rise in recent years in the number of individuals committed to prison under county court orders, they will consider the appointment of social workers to provide county court judges with social inquiry reports, to undertake means inquiries and to offer such other advice and information as the courts may require.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, while the number of committal orders made in the county courts in 1963 increased, the number of those actually committed to prison fell slightly. It is, I fear, the case that a considerable number of debtors do not comply with a court order until a committal order is made. Before making a committal order, the county court judge must be satisfied that the debtor has, or has had since the date of the judgment, the means to pay. I do not think that the reports of social workers or their advice would assist in the discharge of this judicial duty. It is only after hearing evidence in court, usually from the creditor or his agents and from the debtor, that the judge decides. I know and welcome the fact that in some areas probation officers, despite the heavy burden of their ordinary work, voluntarily help persons and families in financial difficulties with advice and guidance. While I recognise the importance of this work, I do not think it would be practicable to impose a duty to do this on all probation officers having regard to their other obligations.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, for his reply. Would he not agree that in fact, although in the last year the number of persons committed to prison may have fallen slightly, in the past ten years the number has increased tenfold and there is here a serious social problem? Would he not agree that it could well be an advantage, both to the debtors and to the courts, if the same sort of facilities as are available in magistrates' courts, in cases of maintenance orders and things of that sort, were available in county courts? Further, would it not be possible to employ retired probation officers or such people for this work, without in any way putting a heavier load on the existing service?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with regard to the first question, it is true that the number of persons committed to prison has increased over the last ten years, but the number of judgment summons has also increased; in fact, the percentage has not varied substantially. In regard to the second question, I do not think you can compare the functions of the magistrates in relation to maintenance orders and things of that sort, with the functions of the judge with regard to the collection of debts. As to the third question, I do not think myself, as the judge depends upon evidence given in public before he makes his order, that it would be possible to institute a system such as the noble Lord has suggested. What is really required—and voluntary effort can do a great deal towards it—is assistance for the families, and guidance and advice when these families have got into financial difficulties.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: My Lords, as has been indicated, a reason for the large increase in the number of those in prison at the moment is the increase in the number of those sentenced for debt. Could the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor indicate, first, whether Her Majesty's Government have any intention of instituting an inquiry as to the reason for this serious increase in the number of those imprisoned for debt; and, secondly, whether any study into the ethics and expediency of imprisonment for debt could be implemented?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not agree with the right reverend Prelate in his preliminary statement. They are not, in fact, sentenced for debt. If they are committed to prison they are committed for contempt, for disobedience of an order made by the court after the court has been satisfied that the debtor has, or has had, the means to comply with the court order. With regard to the second question put by the right reverend Prelate, and the third, the answer is, No. I think it is necessary to keep the sanction of a committal order to ensure payment of debts by recalcitrant debtors. As I pointed out in my original Answer, I fear it is the case that a substantial number of debtors at the present time do not pay until a committal order has been made.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: My Lords, with respect, I do not feel that my question has been answered. It was this: have Her Majesty's Government any intention of instituting an inquiry as to the reason for this serious increase?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I would reply, first of all, that I do not think this question arises out of the original Question at all. But the answer to the question is, I repeat, No. The reason for the increase is quite obvious—namely, that people against whom orders have been made have not chosen to comply with them, although they have the means to do so.

OVERCROWDING IN PRISONS
3.12 p.m.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what measures they are taking to reduce the number of prisoners who are having to sleep three in a cell: and what measure of success they have achieved.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD DERWENT): My Lords, on June 2 there were 5,925 men sleeping three in a cell, which is a reduction of 2,700 from the peak figure of 8,625

709
in March, 1963. Since February, 1959, when the current building programme was announced in a White Paper (Cmnd. 645), twelve new prisons and borstals and one remand centre for males have been provided and staffed. Two new establishments for women and girls, releasing accommodation for males, have also been provided. Four further secure prisons for men, one secure borstal for boys, and eight remand centres have been put in hand. Further projects are under consideration.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask whether he can say when the building programme to which he has referred will be completed? Can he also say whether the programme, when completed, will eliminate the need for three to a cell?
LORD DERWENT: The building programme we expect to be completed within four years; and, provided that the prison and borstal population does not rise between now and then, we expect that that building programme will eliminate the need for three in a cell.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, while expressing the pleasure of all concerned with penal reform at some reduction in the number who are sleeping three in a cell, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that when Mr. Butler became Home Secretary there were rather more than 2,000 sleeping three in a cell, and there are still nearly 6,000.
LORD DERWENT: The prison population has gone up since then.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, can the noble Lord give us any news about the closure of Dartmoor as a prison?
LORD DERWENT: I am afraid I cannot. That is a different question, and I cannot give the noble Lord an answer at the moment.

DEVELOPMENT OF NAVIGABLE RIVERS
3.14 p.m.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the large part waterways now play in the transport system of the West European Continent, and the steady increase in the volume of heavy traffic on our roads, they will set up a comprehensive inquiry into the possibilities of extending the navigable rivers of this country, and of restoring and developing the canals by which they can be linked.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, these possibilities are already being taken into account by the British Waterways Board in the course of the comprehensive review on which they are now engaged following their interim report on The Future of the Waterways which they submitted to my right honourable friend last December.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, arising out of that Answer, will my noble friend bear in mind the fact that over 30 per cent. of heavy goods traffic in West Germany is now carried by water, that the geographical and geological conditions in this country are now very well suited to modern canal construction, and that, unless we have a comprehensive overall plan for the transport system of this country by road, air, rail and water, we shall never solve the transport problem?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I was, of course, aware of the situation on the Continent, and indeed in some ways feel envious, because the noble Lord certainly must have overlooked the very considerable difference caused by geographical and historical factors which enable that kind of thing to happen. It is very different in this country, and always has been. What the future may be I do not know, but in the course of the review I mentioned it is precisely considerations of the kind which

711
the noble Lord has in mind that the Board are thinking about.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, could the Minister say whether in the comprehensive review that is now taking place consideration is also being given to the use of these waterways for storage and distribution of water as well as as a means of communication?
LORD CHESHAM: My noble friend, I am sure, knows that the Waterways Board have the statutory duty on them to try to work out the best possible use, in whatever way it may be, of the waterways.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind, when all these matters are being considered, the fact that the canalisation of the Moselle River has reduced the cost of transport by a percentage varying between 40 and 55 per cent., due to competition between waterways transport and railway transport?
LORD CHESHAM: I am quite sure that if the Board feel that bearing that in mind is useful, they will do so.

PRIME MINISTER'S CRITICISM OF SOCIALISTS
3.18 p.m.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, this is the time when I usually raise questions of Business. I want to do something which I very much hesitate to do, and did not want to do, and that is to raise the question of how we, as a Socialist Opposition, are to be treated in future in this House and what exactly we are to make of the speech of the Prime Minister last night. I know he has felt very vexed about certain statements made in connection with quite another matter, but when he says,
"I have always known that the Socialists were too dangerous to allow them to form a Government",
then makes reference to their present position as an Opposition, and then says that there is only one thing to be done: that they must be voted out of public life, as a result of which they would not be able to do any more harm, I
712
think those words require a little explanation in Parliament.
We as an Opposition had great friendship with the Prime Minister in this House. I think we worked with him very well. We appreciated his qualities as Foreign Secretary, as Secretary of State at the Commonwealth Relations Office, and as Leader of this House; but we are Socialists and we have served in Government after Government. We served for more than nine years in a Labour Government. We were the balancing factor which, in May, 1940, made Sir Winston Churchill Prime Minister. And we left to the present Government a state of organised defence forces without precedent in the history of our country in peace time.
I resent tremendously the implication of the Prime Minister's words, and I should like to know still further whether the real aim behind it is to lead to single-Party Government. We must know where the Prime Minister stands in relation to those with whom he has worked, and worked successfully, who are Socialists, in this House and elsewhere. This kind of statement cannot be allowed to go unchallenged. If, therefore, the reply is that all these statements are justified and form the opinion of the Conservative Government, then, of course, we shall have to look to see how we organise our position.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister was seeking to make, and I thought made very clearly, the point that if the policy which has been followed over the frigates for Spain is indicative of the sort of policy that a Labour Government would follow, it would be too dangerous for us as a country to have a Labour Government. My Lords, I do not think that the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition need be too frightened of his position. I would remind him that even if the entire Labour Party opposite me disappeared from this House, which on personal grounds I should greatly regret, we should still have the Liberal Party as an Opposition.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, let me say at once, with regard to the reference of the

713
Leader of the House to the Spanish armaments interest, that I wonder what would have been said if at any time there had been a Labour Government in power which had made part of its policy the supply of armaments whenever requested by a Communist Power. What would have been said? There would have been just as much criticism as may have been made in this case with regard to the supply of armaments to a Fascist State. Surely, therefore, the basis of comparison has been quite unfair in this matter.
The position of the Opposition in the future will have to be very largely affected by what the Prime Minister says to the country from time to time on matters and issues like this. I want that to be clearly understood. At any rate, those of us who have served not only in Labour Governments but right through the last Great War in the defence of our country resent, and resent bitterly, the implication that the Socialists should be voted, not out of the next Election but out of public life. That is what he said. We have as much right to be in public life in this democracy as any other section of it.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I point out that the Party for whom I speak have been in Opposition far longer than either of the other Parties. Therefore, we are far more experienced, and in our experience we find that when General Elections come along things of this sort are apt to be said. Would not the noble Lord the Leader of the House also agree that both the larger Parties, in their heart of hearts, would welcome a one-Party system?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, there is something in what the noble Lord said with which I agree, but I do not think I would agree with his last observation. The fact remains that, owing to some of the things that have been said by members of the Opposition, a very large order indeed has been lost, with an even greater potential. It seems to me that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister was perfectly right, and perfectly entitled to point out that if the Opposition had been more responsible in what they said, this would not have happened.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, the Prime Minister holds the most responsible posi-
714
tion in the country, and, therefore he, at any rate, should be the most responsible in his speeches. I think I have clearly indicated to the House that he was quite irresponsible in his references to Socialism in general in this country to-day, and about what his intentions are. I might say to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, that the Liberal Party certainly have a long experience—I give them that credit—but perhaps this is the worst type of attack on a political Party that we have had since the days when Sir Winston Churchill made his famous speech as a Liberal. He said then that the Tory Party was the Party of vested interests, with corruption at home and aggression abroad to cover it up; with dear food for the millions and cheap labour for the millionaires, and all that kind of thing. We know all about that. But in this case this is trying to vote Socialism out of public life. We have as much right to be in this democracy as any other.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I really do not think I ought to let the noble Earl, much as we all respect him, get away with that sort of remark. It seems to me that the Prime Minister was saying that in his view, and I think in the view of all my noble friends behind me, the policy which has been followed, the speeches which have been made by the Opposition on this matter of trade with Spain and frigates for Spain, have been totally irresponsible. And if this is the sort of policy that the Labour Government are going to follow, then the sooner we return a Conservative Government the better.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I want to point out that what the Prime Minister said in this particular speech was:
"I have always known that the Socialists were too dangerous to allow them to form a Government."
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I just ask the noble Earl who leads the Opposition not to be too mealy-mouthed in this matter. For goodness' sake! let us have some good healthy, hearty controversy between the Parties. The noble Earl has greatly praised Sir Winston Churchill. I would remind him that Sir Winston Churchill described the Labour

715
Party as "a Gestapo", and that was worse than anything the present Prime Minister has said.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, are not some people getting very thinskinned? Is it really so much worse to say that the Socialist Party should not be given office than it was to say that the Tories were "lower than vermin"?

PERPETUITIES AND ACCUMULATIONS BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments to be printed.

STATUTE LAW REVISION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

HOUSING BILL
3.27 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to signify to the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Housing Bill, has consented to place Her Majesty's interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS): My Lords, in moving the Third Reading of this Housing Bill, I do not think I need add very much to what has already been said at some considerable length on a number of occasions. I believe that this is a useful Bill and an important Bill. It came from the other place, where it was given close scrutiny
716
and was undoubtedly improved upon, and when it reached your Lordships' House we in our turn considered it carefully and have made some substantial improvements. I am convinced that the objectives which the Government have set out in the Bill will, in fact, be achieved and I would recapitulate only very briefly what these objectives are.
First of all, in Part I we are setting up a new Housing Corporation in order to assist and encourage the creation of new housing societies which are to be developed throughout Great Britain for the purpose of building houses for cost-rent and houses on a co-ownership basis, one-third of the money to be raised from the Housing Corporation and two-thirds from the building societies. I think we all agree that this, if achieved, will fill a useful gap, and I am convinced that this objective will in due course be achieved. In Part II of the Bill we have set out procedures for the compulsory improvement of dwellings to provide standard amenities, by way of both area improvements and improvements applied for in respect of dwellings outside designated areas as well. Part II of the Bill should perform the most valuable task of accelerating an improvement of the 2 million or more houses which should now be improved and which are still structurally sound. This ranks high in the priorities of the Government's housing programme.
In Part III of the Bill, which deals with assistance for the improvement of dwellings, we have made more liberal grants available for improvement to the full range of standard amenities. In some respects we have made grants available for amenities to the reduced standard where one cannot reach the full standard. We have also raised the limit of discretionary grant in respect of improvements in Scotland, and for three-storey conversions in England and Wales. An annual review of the situation, in regard to the cost of rural dwellings and their improvements in particular, has been promised by my right honourable friend. It was in connection with this part of the Bill that criticisms were made of its extremely complicated phraseology and cross-references. It was, of course, dealing very largely with alterations and amendments to the existing scheme of grant, and cross-references to earlier

717
legislation were therefore hardly avoidable. But certainly there is a lot to be said for bringing all the relevant legislation into one place, and this is something which the Government have in mind and they feel can usefully be done as soon as a suitable opportunity presents itself.
Finally, on Part IV of the Bill, which deals with houses in multi-occupation and which, of course, has been the most controversial aspect of this Bill, I think there is only the one matter outstanding to which I need refer, and that is that on Report stage the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked me to discuss yet once again with my right honourable friend the proposed new clause he had put forward which was designed to give a limited measure of security of tenure to tenants in a multi-occupied house during the execution of works required by the local authority—the Amendment which we might briefly refer to as "the Sheffield Amendment". I have, of course, had this discussion, and my right honourable friend and I are still of the same mind as I indicated at Report stage. Therefore, I do not think I should recapitulate now the rather long argument against the Amendment which I then made.
We feel that Part IV is a very important part of the Bill, and, after the very long arguments we have had on an Amendment which has now become known as "the Rachman Amendment", the Government are convinced that all the objectives we set out to achieve by way of the improvement of bad conditions in multi-occupied houses and the prevention of exploitation of tenants in those houses will in fact be achieved, and that we have dealt a death blow at the would-be Rachmans of the future. My Lords, I do not think I need say any more. I believe we have done our job well in this House. I was slightly out of order on Report stage in thanking noble Lords opposite and my noble friend Lord Jellicoe, who have done so much to help, but I shall be in order in doing so on this occasion. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Hastings.)
3.33 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we are very much obliged to the noble Lord for the statement he has made, and I personally
718
have no particular quarrel with what he has said. He has described this measure as useful and important. I would agree that it is useful; I would not agree that it is important. I have always had my doubts as to how far it is going to help in the solution of our housing problem. After all, as I pointed out on Second Reading, this is the twenty-seventh housing measure which the Conservative Government have introduced since they first came into office in 1951. I would say that it falls into line with the other twenty-six. They have all played their part, but to describe this as important is, I think, a considerable exaggeration. But we shall see how far it goes. I very much doubt whether it will go very far.
The other thing I want to say is that, whatever may be said about driving the Opposition out of public life, the fact remains that the efforts of the Opposition in this House on this Bill have very substantially improved it. We have been able to secure greater protection for persons pending the confirmation of compulsory purchase orders; we have been able to secure greater protection to other people during the course of proceedings by local authorities; and, generally, I think the Bill is a far better Bill than when it first came to this House. I therefore feel that the Opposition here have certainly justified their existence.
I do not want to go through all the parts of the Bill to which the noble Lord referred, but I want to say that I think the Government have made a profound mistake in dismissing the appeal we made to them to deal in this Bill with Rachmanism. They had the opportunity. It would have been perfectly possible for them to introduce, or to accept, a simple clause by which a control order could be made, and that would have had immediate effect in providing for those people who are quite unable to look after themselves—people who are intimidated and frightened out of their wits, and whose lives are being made a hell because their landlords want to get rid of them. The Government have found every possible and impossible excuse for not acceding to this. I am very sorry indeed, because this Bill would have been far more useful if it had dealt with what I regard as one of the major evils in housing—successful attempts by bad landlords to get rid of

719
their tenants by this means. However, I repeat that this is a useful measure—I will not go further than that—and I hope it may have good effect.
I should like to pay my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, for the very capable and reasonable way in which he has dealt with this Bill as a whole, and also to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, who played, of course, a secondary part in this matter. Apart from the differences we have had, I am glad to say we have discussed this matter in a civilised way. The noble Lord has tried to answer the points that have been made on this side of the House and on others, and I think this Bill has been discussed in a way in which measures of this kind should be discussed. We have had our differences, and I am not satisfied in all cases with the result, but I have conceded many times, as have my noble friends, where we thought that the noble Lord had made a case, and we have withdrawn our Amendments. I hope that when the tables are turned and the noble Lord finds himself having to move Amendments to Bills, they will be dealt with in the same spirit.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: My Lords, I did not interrupt the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, but he said something which I do not think ought to be allowed to pass without correction. He said it was the intention of the Conservatives to drive the Socialists out of public life. There has been no such suggestion at all, as I understand the position, but to drive them "out of public office". There is a great deal of difference between being in office and being in public life. Being in public life and taking a proper part in opposition is a very different thing from being in office and therefore having the responsibility of office. I thought it right that that point, made by the noble Lord opposite, should not go uncorrected in this House.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, if it had been possible to put down an Amendment which dealt effectively with Rachmanism, I should certainly have voted for it. The Opposition did put down an Amendment, and I looked at it, but in my humble opinion it was unworkable, so I did not vote for it. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested lines on which such an Amendment might have been made, but, with all due respect, I did not think that his sug-
720
gestion was in the least workable, because you are always up against the difficulty of malicious allegations. It is quite impossible to prove terrorism and intimidation, and that is the great difficulty in dealing with this sort of thing. Many of us would have voted for any practical solution, but I do not think there is one.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, your Lordships may remember that recently, on the Report stage, I made some reference to the emptiness of the Bishops' Bench. I referred to Bishops generally, and in particular to the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of London and to my friend the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Southwark, whom we are very glad to see here this afternoon. I referred to the fact that the Lord Bishop of London and the Lord Bishop of Southwark had led a procession from St. Paul's to Southwark Cathedral on some housing problems, particularly homelessness, and that I was sorry they were not here when we were dealing with Rachmanism so that they could have said a word about it. Indeed, there were no Bishops present; and I took the opportunity for, I think, the second time, of rather reproving the Bishops' Benches for not having somebody in attendance.
The right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Southwark has since written me a nice letter stating the inevitable ecclesiastical engagements that he had that day and which he was unable to cancel; and I accept that. I ought to have remembered that he has recently been the victim of a severe motor accident; but, having seen him the week before, I thought he was "fair game" this week. But he has sent me a letter which explains his absence and I accept it. I had dictated and signed—and it had gone off before I saw what happened—a letter in which I had got as near a chap of my temperament can get to making an apology for what I said.
I sat through the greater part of yesterday's debate and there were four Bishops here for the debate on world population. When, having listened to most of the debate, I had gone, because I had an engagement—not an ecclesiastical one, but one which I had to keep—the right reverend Prelate said [col. 694]
"I endorse and support everything that has just been said by my noble friend Lord Taylor.

721
As I look across the House, my one regret is that my other noble friend, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, is not present to hear such an important speech. I should have thought he would regard it as his duty to be present. Having said that, I endorse all that has been said. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, will read, mark and inwardly digest what has been said in the debate."
I heard most of the debate, and I am now in the process of reading the rest. It was a perfectly fair retort on the part of the right reverend Prelate which I take as good sport and I do not in any way resent. The interchange that we had—I should not say "interchange" because I was not here at the end; I left at a late point, but he took advantage of my absence by coming in late when I had gone—I do not resent. I hope that this interchange will leave the right reverend Prelate and me the best of friends, as we have always been.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said. The score was "deuce" and it has now gone to "vanout" to him. I will bring it back to "deuce" by saying that I realise I ought not to have criticised the noble Lord for his absence yesterday in view of the nature of the debate, it being on birth control, and I realise there was no need for him to be present.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, after this little diversion from the strict subject before us, the Third Reading of the Housing Bill, I should just like to say—
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I cannot let the noble Lord say that without some observation. This trouble originated on the Housing Bill; therefore, it is perfectly relative to the Third Reading.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. He had an entry into the discussion.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for some, but not all, of his remarks. I still maintain that this is an important Bill and will achieve what we say it sets out to achieve. The fact that it happens to be the 27th Bill in a long line of legislation is quite irrelevant to its importance. I would say only one thing: upon almost every occasion in Committee and in Report, and now again, I have said, again and again, that
722
this Bill does deal with Rachmanism and noble Lords opposite have said it does not. I must have the last word on this. It does deal with Rachmanism in all respects except that of where the landlord uses intimidation which is not connected with the living conditions of the house. I explained it very logically to the utter satisfaction of all my noble friends behind me. If noble Lords opposite will allow themselves to be really objective in this matter it will be logical even to them; and I will prove to their satisfaction that this rare case, in fact, virtually never arises end never has arisen in respect of multi-occupied houses. Nevertheless, when intimidation does occur without relevance to the living conditions then a compulsory purchase order can be used. I hope that is the last word on this matter. We have dealt with Rachmanism in Part IV of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 32, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

RESALE PRICES BILL
3.46 p.m.
Report of Amendments received (according to Order).
Clause 1 [Avoidance of conditions for maintaining resale prices]:
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON moved, after subsection (2), to insert:
"()If a supplier whose normal practice has been to supply goods to any dealer for sale seeks by entering into an agency agreement with that dealer to sell on consignment and thus to retain ownership of the goods until the customer has taken delivery, and if it appears to the Registrar that the object of the agreement is to circumvent the provisions of this Section, then the Registrar may refer the agreement to the Restrictive Practices Court; and the Court may, if it thinks fit and after hearing such evidence and argument as appear to it appropriate, declare that agreement void, and thereupon this section shall apply accordingly."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 1, I must apologise to your Lordships for bringing up a subject which we debated very fully on the Committee stage. The purpose of this Amendment is to stop a possible loophole by which someone wishing to maintain resale price maintenance would be enabled to do so by supplying goods on consignment and retaining ownership

723
until the customer had taken delivery. We had a very interesting debate on the Committee stage; the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor was extremely forthcoming and he gave us very clear and interesting answers.
I would not have brought this up were it not that I think I am able to make rather a stronger case than I was on the last occasion. We argued on the last occasion that an attempt to get round resale price maintenance could be made by some device as a result of which the manufacturer retained ownership of the goods until after the sale or until the point of delivery; although, I admit, there was a flaw in our previous Amendment. We argued that this would be likely to apply especially in the motor trade; it might apply in the case of motor cars or tyres—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Latham, gave an example of tyre companies who appoint certain persons as stockists. We are not seeking in this Amendment to upset established practice in regard to stockists and others who act as agents; but there is a possibility that a particular group of manufacturers, and certainly a single manufacturer, might wish to retain control over prices, and that under the Bill as it stands it would be perfectly legitimate for this to be done.
The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, like the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, produced a number of arguments designed to suggest that such an event was unlikely. He suggested, for instance, that it was unlikely that a supplier or a manufacturer would wish to take the responsibility involved in being a principal in a transaction of this kind. He rather suggested that this would be so onerous that in such circumstances the supplier would not contemplate—or would, at least, be averse to contemplating—such an arrangement. I would reject that argument because there are very many agents who operate quite happily, and clearly a manufacturer in such circumstances takes very good care to ensure that whoever has his agency behaves reputably; although I must admit that there are certain additional responsibilities. It was further suggested that this was a very unlikely event. I think the noble and learned Lord Chancellor suggested that he had had actual assurances
724
from manufacturers that they were unlikely to take advantage of this method of avoidance. I would stress, as did my noble friend Lord Latham, that avoidance would be perfectly legal. We wish to stop up the loophole and not put manufacturers in the position of having the Government subsequently (in the words of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor) "crack down" on them. This would be most undesirable. It would entail some retrospective action, because manufacturers would at least have to undo the arrangements into which they had entered.
There was the further objection that it would not be possible under this Amendment, as then drafted, for the court to take action effectively, because the matter would merely be referred to the court and nothing would then happen. We have redrafted the Amendment to enable the court to intervene. If the principles contained in this Amendment are acceptable, and the redrafting is not satisfactory, I do not doubt that the Government will be able to put it into satisfactory form. All I have said so far is theoretical. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said that it would be impossible to predict the effect of this provision in view of the various devices that may be adopted by various individuals and concerns, but he went on to say that the risk would be slight. It so happened that, on the very day of the debate, I was speaking to an American lawyer and found that, only within the last few weeks, such a case had arisen in the United States, Richard Simpson versus Union Oil Company, in precisely the same circumstances which we in our prophecy, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, had foreseen might take place.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to this case. It was with some difficulty that I managed to get a photocopy of the report of the proceedings, and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will have received a copy only recently. An American dealer found that the oil company, which supplied him with gasolene, wished him to sell it at a fixed price and they proposed an agreement, a lease, under which they would be able to insist on his selling at the price they set for a certain period. The dealer brought suit and, after various processes, the case went to the Supreme Court where, in a ruling (if that is the right

725
word), this arrangement was declared illegal under the anti-trust laws of the United States. I should like to quote from this ruling.
"Dealers, like Simpson, are independent businessmen; and they have all or most of the indivia"—
indications; perhaps my noble and learned friend Lord Conesford can help us on this—
"of enterpreneurs, except for price fixing. The risk of loss of the gasoline is on them, apart from acts of God. Their return is affected by the rise and fall in the market price, their commissions declining as retail prices drop. Practically the only power they have to be wholly independent businessmen, whose service depends on their own initiative and enterprise, is taken from them by the proviso that they must sell their gasolene at prices fixed by Union Oil. By reason of the lease and consignment' agreement dealers are coercively laced into an arrangement under which their supplier is able to impose non-competitive prices on thousands of persons who otherwise might be competitive."
The oil company in question used the argument that all those who seek to maintain prices use—namely, that they provide a good service in the interests of the community and of the dealers generally. But Parliament is in process of deciding that, except within very limited terms, resale price maintenance should be illegal. I suggest that the case we put forward is a relevant one. It is likely to happen, and it is the duty of Parliament to stop up in advance loopholes of a kind of which it would be perfectly proper for people to take advantage. I hope that the Government, if they are not able to accept the Amendment as it stands, will at least accept the principle and agree that an additional Amendment will be introduced at a later stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 19, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I wish to support my noble friend in this Amendment. For some time I have felt that in a trade like the selling of petrol there could be a circumvention of the principles of the Bill. I am sure that the Minister will be aware that in recent years there has been a considerable increase in the number of petrol stations that are owned directly by the oil companies. Whereas four or five years ago the number was approximately 300, to-day, it is well over 3,000, and this
726
increase has taken place largely during the last two years. Undoubtedly, there is a definite policy behind the petrol companies' decision to increase the number of stations they own.
What will be the consequence of this Bill to them, with their continuing capital investment? The Government say—and here we agree with them—that the privately owned petrol station should be allowed to sell petrol at whatever price they consider right. What will be the policy of the petrol companies, when they see the activities of private stations selling in direct competition with them and gravely affecting the returns on their own stations? I submit that the natural result, which will be perfectly legal, unless the Bill is altered, will be that the boards of the petrol companies will do something to ensure that the returns on their stations will be continued at the same level; and if they cannot impose a retail price upon petrol, they will get round it by bringing the private stations into agency agreements, similar to those instanced by my noble friend when he gave his illustration of what had happened in America.
It was interesting that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said that he had obtained assurances from the industry. He did not say which industry. It may well have been the petrol people. If that is the case—and from the nod the Minister gives I surmise that it was—
LORD DRUMALBYN: With respect, I myself said that it was from the motor industry, not the petrol industry.
LORD SHEPHERD: Therefore, we have not an undertaking from the petrol people. It is within the distribution of petrol and oil that we get some of the most vicious restrictive practices. Is it not a fact that the oil companies impose regulations upon their distributors as to the types and brands of oil that they may sell? A company that sells one particular brand of petrol, and is at the same time selling oil under the same market, prohibits by agreement the sale of other brands of oil. I should have thought that this was one of the most vicious forms of restrictive retail practice. It is well known in this trade. Therefore, we have a case where the oil companies are operating restrictive practices, and

727
they may now find—as I think they will—that the present method of distributing petrol at a fixed price will be undermined. I imagine (they certainly have the resources to do it) that they will circumvent the intentions of this Bill by adopting agency agreements. I do not think the Government intend that this should be so. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor suggested that it was not likely and that the possibility was remote. We have tried to put some of the possibilities.
I should have thought that the Government would welcome the opportunity of closing a gap. The Amendment does not affect any of the present or the future agreements. If it were approved it would give power to the Registrar, if he felt that the agreement had been entered into to circumvent the intentions of Parliament in passing this Bill, to refer it to the Restrictive Practices Court. I should not have thought that there was any clash of principle or opinion between noble Lords on this side and the Government. We want to see this Bill strengthened and to have a proper balance. I should have thought that, if the Government accepted the Amendment, we should have gone a considerable way to achieve it.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for the way in which they have spoken to this Amendment, which is undoubtedly an interesting one. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said in the course of his speech, that if the Amendment was not satisfactory, no doubt it would be possible to put it in a satisfactory form. I do not think he will be surprised to hear that, as a matter of drafting, the Amendment is not satisfactory. Moreover, as a matter of administrative machinery it would not effect what he seeks to achieve.
However, let us consider rather the substance of the matter, because I think this is what noble Lords opposite want us to do. I have only in the last half hour had some indication of this case brought to my attention. I think it would be wrong to go into the merits of the case in a different country with a federal system and all the various implications that are involved there. I do not even
728
know whether I have the latest "state of play" on this particular lawsuit, or series of lawsuits—I do not know which it is. So I would rather not discuss that. Nor should I wish to discuss whether that case is on an exact parallel with the kind of arrangement which, at any rate according to the drafting of the Amendment, the noble Lord has in mind.
What I think is important is that the noble Lord has indicated one field in which it is conceivable that this kind of arrangement might be introduced. Financially, this is a field which we considered earlier: we did not entirely neglect it in considering the various developments that might take place and the loopholes that might arise. But we still think that this is a loophole that is unlikely to arise. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, pursued this in various ways. He talked about petrol stations that were owned by oil companies. But it by no means follows that a petrol station owned by an oil company might not already have a consignment agency system.
LORD SHEPHERD: It would.
LORD DRUMALBYN: That would not be stopped in any way. There is no intention of interfering with normal methods of trading. What the noble Lord plainly has in mind is that he does not want a change to an agency arrangement to be introduced as a means and for the purpose of avoiding the effects of this Bill. We quite accept that. But we still do not think this is likely to arise in this case. For one thing, in this particular field, the Monopolies Commission are inquiring into the solus site system. I think it would be as well, from that point of view, to await their Report before we, as I think my noble and learned friend put it, "slammed down" in any particular direction.
I think it would be quite impossible to anticipate where loopholes might arise. We have examined this, but I still think that loopholes are unlikely to arise in this way. I still take the view expressed by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor that it would be wrong to try to close loopholes in general. The right course in dealing with a new field of this kind is to wait and see where the loopholes are likely to arise, and then close them, and make certain of closing them. I say, again,

729
that this particular Amendment would not close this particular loophole, and for that reason I would ask your Lordships to reject the Amendment.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, with permission, I should like to make one point in regard to loopholes. We were told on previous legislation this afternoon that we have had 27 Bills on housing, and two Acts of Parliament, each dealing with loopholes. Some of them may have been anticipated by the Government, and many of them have been anticipated by the Opposition. It occupies a great deal of Parliamentary time and creates considerable inconvenience and uncertainty within the trade. If there is this loophole, and it is recognised as a loophole, surely it would be sensible to close it up.
4.8 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, could reaffirm a point which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor made when a similar Amendment was discussed in Committee. The noble Lord will recall that I instanced the practice of sending goods on consignment where the ownership did not pass from the manufacturer and the dealer never really owned the goods at all, because at the moment that he sold them to the customer that was the only moment when he became responsible for paying for the goods to the manufacturer. I pointed out that that was a well-recognised and fairly widespread practice in a number of industries; and I have been thinking of others since.
For example, even in the food trade, in wholesale markets, where there is a good deal of selling on consignment ment—which is another word for selling on commission—the wholesalers or dealers never own the goods. But in cases where prices are fixed by the haggling of the market, there is no possibility of maintaining the price. In many cases goods are sent on consignment without ownership passing. But where the supplier of the goods in wholesale markets—and I am still talking about food markets—does retain ownership, and does fix the price, he gives instructions that the goods shall be sold at that price, and the dealer merely gets a commission when he actually sells the goods.
730
As I understand the position from the discussion in Committee, that is not an offence; it is not a matter which would have to be referred to the Restrictive Practices Court. There would not be any need for registration of such practices. If that be so—and that was certainly my understanding when the matter was discussed in Committee—then my noble friends Lord Shackleton and Lord Shepherd are perfectly right in their representations of this Amendment: namely, that there are exceptions to the Bill that if there is this loophole, as he described it, then it is an open invitation for that form of trading to be used in extenso by suppliers who are so disposed in order to evade the consequences of this Bill, without any liability whatsoever to go to the Court; and, therefore, the Bill could be set aside with immunity. I think, therefore, that before we leave this Amendment, it is important for the noble Lord—who I am quite sure would have the leave of the House to do so—to deal with that point with which he did not, in my submission, deal in his first speech.
4.12 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, by leave of the House again, may I reply to the noble Lord? It is quite true, of course, that the consignment agency system at present exists—and this is not a legal term, but a loose trading term. In the normal way, where that takes place the manufacturer or supplier retains control of the goods. He sells the goods through the dealer by the agency of the dealer to the customer. The goods are his throughout. That is a system which already exists, which this Bill does not touch, which we use all over the world, and which we do not think it reasonable to touch in this Bill.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, what does the noble Lord mean by "we use all over the world"? We are talking about resale price maintenance.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, what I meant was that this system of consignment agencies is used in appropriate circumstances, not only in this country, but in our export sales as well. I quite agree that it is not relevent, but, at any rate, it is an indication that perhaps it would not be a very good idea to try

731
to interfere. The point the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is getting at—and I think the only point with which we are concerned—is the adoption of such a system purely in order to evade the effects of this Bill in cases where, at the present time, the supplier sells to the dealer and the dealer sells to the customer. This is the point at issue at the present time.
I would suggest to the House that there may be particular cases, and there may be very different reasons indeed for changing over to a consignment agency system. There may be good commercial reasons for doing it. What the noble Lord has in mind is that this should not be done purely in order to evade the effects of this Bill. I think the House should appreciate that in most cases changing from one system to another would involve great difficulties for the supplier. It would mean, in many cases, that he would have hundreds of agencies all over the country, and he would retain control of the goods throughout the shops or depots, whatever it may be, of the various dealers who were the agents for the goods. We do not think it is likely that, merely in order to avoid the effects of the Resale Prices Bill, such extreme steps would be taken on any large scale by suppliers. This is the point I was putting to the House, and this is the reason why we do not think it necessary to accept this Amendment in principle.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, having listened to the arguments, I must say that I think the Government have been almost as obstinate on this as they were over my Amendment concerning putting in exports as an additional gateway. All they say is that this is not likely to happen very often and, therefore, it is not worth putting in. I cannot say I am convinced by that. I cannot see the harm in putting in the words
"… if it appears … that the object of the agreement is to circumvent the provisions of this section, then the Registrar may refer the agreement to the Restrictive Practices Court …"
What is wrong in that? I am afraid I am not convinced at all.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I really do not think the Government have addressed their minds to this at
732
all. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, did not have this paper more than half an hour ago. I gave notice through the Library to the Lord Chancellor's Office that I was going to quote an American case, and perhaps I should congratulate the Library in getting the details so quickly.
The noble Lord has repeatedly said that this is not likely to happen. He has argued without any grounds and, if I may say so, without very much experience—I do not mean this offensively—that suppliers will not go to the bother and expense of setting up hundreds of agencies. He said, "We use it all over the world." Of course we do. This is the normal process of trading in certain fields, and certainly in a large field of industrial goods people operate through agents and retain possession. Certainly this is so very often in export. But we are dealing here with resale price maintenance. The Government have introduced a Bill the purpose of which they hope is to introduce more competition, ultimately with a view to bringing down the prices. Admittedly, the legislation is very difficult to draft—we have seen that in discussing some of the other clauses.
But the Government in this House have been completely obstinate. As the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, pointed out, they refused to consider arguments on the subject of bringing in an additional gateway which I, personally, found convincing, and I hope other noble Lords will see that this is a genuine attempt to stop up an obvious gap. This is one which is likely to occur, and which is open for anybody to take advantage of. In an extreme case a tobacco wholesaler—this is very unlikely—could retain the ownership of the cigarettes. It is very unlikely, but in certain fields it is likely and, indeed, has happened. It has happened in the United States, and action has had to be taken. There are other difficulties to cope with. I really find it very difficult to believe that the Government have considered this matter at all seriously, and unless we can get some undertaking—and obviously one is not forthcoming—we shall have to divide to test the serious intention of the Government in this matter.
4.20 p.m.
On Question: Whether the said Amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Clause 3:
Exception for measures against loss leaders
3.—
(2) The reference in this section to the use of goods as loss leaders is a reference to a resale of the goods effected by the dealer, not for the purpose of making a profit on the sale of those goods, but for the purpose of attracting to the establishment at which the, goods are sold customers likely to purchase other goods or otherwise for the purpose of advertising the business of the dealer:
Provided that a sale of goods shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as the use of those goods as loss leaders—

(a) where the goods are sold by the dealer at a genuine seasonal or clearance sale, not having been acquired by the dealer for the purpose of being resold as mentioned in this section;

(b) where the goods are resold as mentioned in this section with the consent of the manufacturer of the goods or, in the case of goods made to the design of a supplier or to the order and bearing the trade mark of a supplier, of that supplier.

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 30; Not-Contents, 56.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Listowel, E.

Saye and Sele, L.

Amwell, L.

Mackintosh of Halifax, V.

Shackleton, L.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Meston, L.

Shepherd, L.

Champion, L. [Teller.]

Monson, L.

Silkin, L.

Colwyn, L.

Morrison, L.

Stonham, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Morrison of Lambeth, L.

Strang, L.

Hobson, L.

Peddie, L.

Summerskill, B.

Iddesleigh, E.

Rea, L.

Williams, L.

Jessel, L.

St. Davids, V.

Williams of Barnburgh, L.

Latham, L.

Samuel, V.

Wise, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Ebbisham, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Allerton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Malmesbury, E.

Alport, L.

Falkland, V.

Margesson, V.

Amory, V.

Ferrers, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Arbuthnott, V.

Forster of Harraby, L.

Merrivale, L.

Bessborough, E.

Fortescue, E.

Milverton, L.

Blakenham, V.

Fraser of North Cape, L.

Monsell, V.

Carrington, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Newall, L.

Chesham, L.

Greenway, L.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Cholmondeley, M.

Grenfell, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Sandford, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hastings, L.

Spens, L.

Conesford, L.

Hawke, L.

Suffield, L.

Coutanche, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Swinton, E.

Denham, L.

Ilford, L.

Thurlow, L.

Derwent, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Twining, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Lambert, V.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Dudley, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Waleran, L.

Dundonald, E.

Long, V.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4.28 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to establish whether Clause 3, which is concerned with loss leaders, is intended primarily to benefit the customer or to protect the supplier. I personally believe that the purpose of this clause is to protect the supplier. I am not, I may say, in favour of the clause anyway, but we may as well get it clear. Therefore my Amendment is to clarify the purpose of the clause. Subsection (2) says:
"The reference … to the use of goods as loss leaders is a reference to a resale of the goods effected by the dealer …"
My Amendment is to insert, after the word "dealer"
"in such a manner or subject to such description as to give a supplier reasonable cause to believe that the use of the goods in such a way was prejudicial to his goodwill."
It is only a very minor Amendment and I move it more in the hope of getting clarification rather than with any idea of insisting on its acceptance. But I

735
think it would help to clarify the purpose of the clause. I think the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, would agree that there is perhaps some doubt as to whom the clause is really intended to benefit. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 7 after ("dealer") insert the said words.—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the Amendment which the noble Lord has moved would not, I am afraid, be acceptable to the Government because it does not seem to take account of the fact that a supplier may withhold supplies from a dealer even if he has been using somebody else's goods as loss leaders, as the noble Lord will see from the last words of page 3:
"… whether obtained from that supplier or not".
The result is that it would, I think, throw an impossible burden on the supplier who wishes to withhold supplies on the grounds that the goods of another supplier have been used as loss leaders. I think the noble Lord will agree that it would be impossible for one supplier to say that the use of another supplier's goods as loss leaders has prejudiced the first supplier's goodwill, and for that reason the Amendment would not fit in with the structure of the clause and we would have to reject it.
The noble Lord raises a wider question as to whom the clause is intended to benefit. I suppose the right answer is both the supplier and the customer, because to the extent that the supplier is injured, and his marketing and sale of his product disrupted, so it might be said to be to the disadvantage of the customer who wants those goods. So think one would have to answer that the clause is primarily intended to benefit the supplier but, secondarily, also the consumer. I think one has to say quite plainly that the loss leader exception has been introduced out of a sincerely held conviction of many suppliers that the practice is intrinsically harmful to their interests. And I think it would be extremely difficult to require the supplier to prove a reasonable cause for fearing such harm in a particular case. I think it is better to rely on the clause as it stands now. If I am right in inter-
736
preting the previous debate in the House, the House felt it is going to be difficult enough in any event to ask the supplier to prove that his goods were sold for the purpose of attracting to the shop at which the goods are sold customers likely to purchase other goods, or otherwise for advertising the business of the dealer. That is what he is going to have to prove, and I do not think it would be right to add this additional requirement and put that on him.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I do not want to press this, but there is one point on which I should like clarification. The noble Lord said the benefit is mainly for the supplier, and if the customer benefits from this at all he benefits indirectly. I accept that that might be so. It is therefore clear that even if a dealer goes in for loss leading with goods supplied and agreed to by one manufacturer, the other manufacturer can regard this as damaging for him. This seems to be clear on the last line of page 3. I should have thought, therefore, there was something to be said for restricting it in the way I have done in relation to the particular supplier whose goodwill is damaged by the goods being used as loss leaders. We are clear on this point. If I as a dealer sell with the agreement of the manufacturer, who says "By all means go ahead and go in for loss leaders as much as you like; it does not hurt me", other suppliers can say this is damaging to them. It is for that reason that I should have liked to clarify and restrict it.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, this was certainly not the intention of the clause. I cannot exactly see how to answer that from the point of view of the drafting at the present time, except to put it in this way. Subsection (2) gives the definition of what "loss leader" is, whereas subsection (1) merely says it shall not be unlawful to withhold supplies in these circumstances. I will certainly look into this point.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will look into this because, quite clearly, my noble friend has made a very pertinent point. I must admit I did not spot it when I went through this clause, but certainly it is a case where difficulty might arise.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I should have thought the answer was quite clear in

737
that the definition makes it clear that it is not to be considered as loss leading if a manufacturer gives his consent to goods being sold at prices which would otherwise have been considered loss leading. That being so, as it is not to be considered loss leading, I do not see how another manufacturer could claim to withhold goods as if those goods had been treated as loss leaders. I think the situation is quite clear, but I will look into it. But I have no doubt that is the answer.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I do not want to get more tangled in this. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON moved, in the proviso to subsection (2), after "leaders" to insert:
"(a) where, at the time of sale by the dealer, the goods so sold were no longer in current production; or".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to clear up a difficulty in Clause 3 and to clarify that in certain circumstances the sale of goods would not be treated for the purposes of this clause as the use of those goods as loss leaders. If your Lordships will look at subsection (2)(a) and (b) you will see that there are certain circumstances in which it is possible for a dealer to dispose of goods—for instance, during a seasonal or clearance sale or with the consent of the manufacturer. I am not sure whether the word "or" is right; that is another point that we shall come on to. I was concerned about the position where a firm buys a special line for a sale.
It is a well-established practice in the retail trade for shops to buy up lines at all sales and clearance periods; they are usually discontinued lines, bought from manufacturers, and this is an important part of the stock clearing process at the manufacturer's end. This is how the manufacturer whose stocks have not been moved or whose lines are being discontinued gets rid of them. Clearly this is a thoroughly desirable and proper action. It is possible (and that is why I have moved my Amendment) for a manufacturer to insist that certain of his goods bought in as a jobbing line should not be sold in a way that might lead to a possible charge of loss leading. I should mention this is a matter which has caused
738
some concern in the retail trade. I have put down an Amendment to provide an additional ground on which goods would not be treated as loss leaders—namely,
"where, at the time of sale by the dealer, the goods so sold were no longer in current production."
This seems to me to be desirable and a perfectly reasonable proposition. It is not going to open the door widely, but it will provide protection for the retailer. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 10, after "leaders" insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am not going to argue what "in current production" means because the noble Lord has made quite clear what he does mean: that this relates to discontinued lines but not to lines not for the moment being produced. I think the point surely is this. In the circumstances that this Bill will introduce, where a manufacturer believes that the sale of his goods as loss leaders could do damage to his interests he is given the right to withhold the goods. Surely, there is no difficulty about this in any way, because where there is any doubt about it the dealer can obtain the consent of the manufacturer. But what does seem to be quite wrong is to introduce a kind of artificial conception of implied consent when it is perfectly easy for real and actual consent to be obtained in these circumstances.
I should have thought that in the particular case where the whole of an end of line production was purchased by a particular dealer, there would be no objection from the manufacturer's point of view at all; he would not mind at what price the goods were sold in the ordinary way, although there might always be certain circumstances in which he would have reservations about their being sold at too low a price, because it might affect the prices of those lines, and possibly similar lines which are still in production. I should have thought that this is not really a necessary or desirable suggestion, bearing in mind how easy it is to obtain the consent of the manufacturer in the circumstances.
LORD SHACKLETON: My only point is that it is these goods which are no longer in current production that retailers are most frequently anxious to move, and

739
which lead to most allegations of price-cutting. I quite agree that this is a fairly unlikely event, although there is some concern and there have been accusations of this type. But I do not think it is a major point and, unless others of your Lordships would wish to pursue the matter further, I would beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, this is a small drafting Amendment, and f am sure the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn will help me. Do we need the word "or" in line 14, and, if not, why not? Are not both paragraphs (a) and (b) alternates, or do they hang together? I quite agree that that "or" was, to a large extent, consequential on the previous Amendment, but it has occurred to me that it might also be necessary in the Bill as it stands; or does the semicolon in those circumstances equal "or" rather than "and"? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 14, at end insert ("or").—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right in thinking that they are alternates. I am told that, strictly speaking, the "or" is not necessary; but if I may put it in this way, for the removal of the noble Lord's doubts I am happy to accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.43 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON moved, in subsection (2), to add to proviso (b):
"or with the implied consent of the supplier by virtue of the goods having been acquired by the dealer on terms indicative of a clearance of stocks by the vendor."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is only the second occasion upon which, when I nearly did not move an Amendment, I found that the Government were going to accept it. I express my appreciation of this improving degree of flexibility on the part of the Government, and I hope that they will be sympathetic to the last of the Amendments I have to move, which again closely ties up, or at least is parallel, with Amendment No. 5. Indeed, in moving Amendment No. 5, I am afraid I may have confused the issue by using some of the arguments that
740
apply strictly to this Amendment, but the two hang together.
I shall not take long over this Amendment. Again, it is concerned merely with the question of clearance of stocks. Here I am suggesting that there should be no danger in regard to action for loss leading if the stocks have been acquired by the dealer on terms indicative of a clearance of stocks by the vendor. But I suspect that the noble Lord will again say that this is not necessary, and that obviously this will be done by agreement with the blessing of the manufacturer. However, we are not all quite so confident of this and perhaps we could hear from the noble Lord on it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 19, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Shackleton.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, as the noble Lord referred to this idea in his previous remarks, I, too, referred to it, and I thought that I answered him then. I think that this also would not be a wise change to make, simply because of the ease with which the dealer can get the consent of the supplier to sell at any price he likes. I see no great difficulty about this. I do not think that the noble Lord really expects this Amendment to be accepted. It would mean that, by implying consent, one was introducing an artificial conception here, and, as I have said before, one would be doing it where it would be perfectly easy to obtain the consent of the supplier. I should have thought that in cases of this kind there would, in general, be no difficulty in getting that consent, especially where the dealer took the whole of the end of the line. In that case, all the supplier is normally concerned with is getting as good a price as he can. He will not mind so much what price the dealer gets. There may be cases where the supplier has a particular interest in seeing that the dealer sells as usual, in order to get a profit, and not merely to attract customers or for advertising purposes. Therefore, I think we should stick to the provision that the consent of the supplier should be obtained.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I must press this a little further, really going back to the earlier part, to subsection (1), where it is open to another

741
supplier in such circumstances to withhold goods. Supposing, in fact, a dealer buys some goods on terms indicative of a clearance of stocks by the vendor, and another supplier then sees them being sold, and in circumstances in which he accuses the dealer of loss leading. The dealer then says, "I was only clearing somebody's stocks for them" and the other supplier, who is after him because he does not like these stocks being sold at this low price, says, "You have to prove it. Where is your consent?" It is just conceivable that that consent may not be forthcoming. This sounds a little hypothetical. But what happens, for example, if the original supplier has gone out of business? I should have thought that this was a simple and reasonable Amendment to accept. I wonder whether the noble Lord would think a little further about it? I admit that I think that there is a stronger case for this Amendment now than when I first moved it.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, is the noble Lord arguing that the supplier of another type of article than that which is alleged to be used for loss leading can take action?
LORD SHACKLETON: Yes.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Surely that is entirely wrong. The only supplier who can take action against a dealer who is loss leading is the supplier of the goods which are affected by that action. There is nothing in this Bill to say that all and sundry suppliers can take action against a supplier or a dealer in regard to an article which is not of their manufacture.
LORD SHACKLETON: Will the Minister explain to the noble Lord, or shall I?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it is the usual rule that one speaks only once in the course of debate on Report, so to help the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, I will perhaps answer the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. If the noble Lord looks at the Bill more closely, he will see that the supplier can withhold supplies of his goods if goods of that kind or of a similar character are being used as loss leaders. Therefore, to take the analogy of electric irons, a supplier of electric irons
742
who finds that somebody is loss leading with an electric iron which is in fact produced by another supplier will be entitled under this Bill to say, "I will not supply electric irons either".
LORD SHACKLETON: May I, with permission of the House, ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, feeling very dissatisfied?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5:
Power of Court to exempt classes of goods
(3) On a reference under this section in respect of goods of any class which have been the subject of proceedings in the Court under Part I of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1956 the Court may treat as conclusive any finding of fact made in those proceedings, and shall do so unless prima facie evidence is given of a material change in the relevant circumstances since those proceedings.
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
"()—

(a) on a reference under this section in respect of any goods the supply of which has been investigated by the Monopolies Commission the Court shall take into account any relevant facts established by the Monopolies Commission;

(b) in this subsection 'Monopolies Commission' means the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission constituted by the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act, 1948, or the said Commission as reconstituted under the name of the Monopolies Commission by the said Act as amended by the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, as the case may be."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment has the purpose of ensuring that the Restrictive Practices Court should take into account any relevant facts which have already been ascertained by the Monopolies Commission. I was pleased to note the more favourable attitude met a few moments ago by my noble friend Lord Shackleton, and, as this is the last non-Government Amendment to be moved on Report, I hope I shall enjoy similar success. During the various stages of the Bill there have been some sharp disagreements on a number of aspects, but I do not think there is any doubt at all that all Parties have fought for the general purpose of the Bill, which is to ensure greater flexibility of retail prices by means of a discontinuance of resale

743
price maintenance, except for those particular goods or classes of goods which may be found by the Restrictive Practices Court to qualify for exemption under Clause 5. I believe that in general the Bill is likely to have some effect, at least, in promoting freer competition and in protecting the public interest, but there is no doubt at all that the so-called gateways in Clause 5 will not be at all easy to get through. In fact I think "needle's eye" is a more apt description than "gateway" because, in order to get through it, you must have not only a very good case but a considerable amount of money.
The onus of proof places heavy burdens on the supplier. This creates a real difficulty because an industry may believe, and may prove to the complete satisfaction of the Court, that the practice as they operate it is not, and is not likely to be, against the public interest, and yet be unable to prove that the discontinuance would be positively to the detriment of the public as measured by the test laid down in Clause 5. I would ask whether it is possible to argue that it is in the public interest to discontinue a practice which has already been shown, after complete investigation, to be not against the public interest. I do not claim that, either in principle or in general, resale price maintenance is in the public interest. Certainly throughout my own business life in my own business I have persistently refused to fix retail prices, but there are undoubtedly cases where it is in the public interest.
Everybody operating such a system who feels that he has real grounds for believing that the public interest is not harmed by his practice and that it has positive advantages to his trade, will when this Bill becomes an Act, give notice of application for exemption. There may also be cases, less fortunate cases, where an industry feels that it is clearly desirable from the point of view of its own interests, yet it has little chance of passing through the gateways in Clause 5. Those industries who wish to be able to continue with the practice will continue as they are for as long as possible. If they consider they have any kind of case, enough money, and can stand the expense and trouble, they will submit a case to the Court so as to defer the evil day for as long as possible. The
744
Court is already overburdened and provision is made for the appointment of three more puisne Judges. These hearings take a lot of time, and are costly not only to the industry concerned but also to the public purse.
It is because of this and what I regard as the extreme fineness of the distinction, on the one hand, of something which is not, nor is likely to be, against the public interest, and, on the other hand, of something whose discontinuance would be to the public detriment, that an Amendment was moved in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, to give the Court power to exempt a practice as applied to a particular class of goods where the practice had been held by the Monopolies Commission to be not against, or not likely to be against, the public interest. Although that Amendment appeared to be reasonable enough, the Government could not accept it. I hope I can fairly summarise the Lord Chancellor's quite powerful objections as being two. First of all, he said that if the Amendment were accepted it meant that for certain trades the Restrictive Practices Court would be obliged to make an exemption order regardless of the application of the gateways. Secondly, he said that it would be contrary to the intention of the Bill, which is that resale price maintenance in all trades, if it is to continue, must be examined by the Court in the light of the criteria in Clause 5—which means that no goods should be automatically exempted from any liability to be judged by the Court.
I submit to the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, that the present Amendment I am moving completely meets those two fundamental objections. It surely is not too much to hope that, bearing in mind what the Lord Chancellor said about what is already the practice of the Courts, the Government will accept the present modest Amendment. It would merely, I submit, write into the Bill recognition of the point that where the Court is satisfied that there is no material change in relevant circumstances, facts established on an investigation by the Monopolies Commission may be taken into account without requiring them to be proved or established all over again. I realise that, even without this Amendment, the Court can have

745
regard—and, indeed, as the Lord Chancellor pointed out during the Committee stage, they have already had regard in other cases—to the contents of Monopolies Commission Reports; but this Amendment does no more than seek to consolidate that position by specifically providing that the Court shall take into account any relevant facts established by the Monopolies Commission. It would obviously be for the Court to determine what are, or are not, facts relevant to the particular application before them and to make their own judgment on the basis of those facts.
I submit that in no circumstances would this Amendment offend against the principle of the Bill or even knock down a single gatepost, but it could save a great deal of unnecessary time, trouble, expense and anxiety without, by any stretch of the imagination, putting an applicant whose goods had been the subject of investigation by the Monopolies Commission in a privileged position in the sense of making it more likely than it is now that the application would be successful. The judgment of the Court will still be based on the facts in relation to the gateways in Clause 5, but this Amendment could ease the time, trouble and expense of proving the facts.
In my view the only possible argument against the Amendment is that it is unnecessary, but even if the Government arc not convinced of its absolute necessity I hope they will see fit to accept it. If they do so they will be giving some recognition to the feelings that exist among many industries, and I believe among your Lordships, that this would be a wholly reasonable provision to make. In some industries it will also relieve the anxieties of tens of thousands of small retailers who have every reason to fear that they will be at the mercy of supermarket chains who will have no hesitation in using these particular products as loss leaders thinly disguised as bargains. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 23, at end insert the said paragraphs.—(Lord Stonham.)
5.2 p.m.
LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGE: My Lords, the Three Musketeers who have banded themselves together to promote and defend this par-
746
ticular Amendment are, as your Lordships will know, recruited from entirely different parts of your Lordships' Chamber; indeed, I think it true to say that they reached their opinions on the subject quite independently. As the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said, we proposed in the Committee stage that if a firm had already satisfied the Monopolies Commission that its arrangements for maintaining the retail prices of its goods were not objectionable in the public interest, it should be saved having to go through practically the same distasteful, time-consuming and costly process all over again before the Restrictive Practices Court. But the Government rejected our Amendment very firmly; therefore we are not putting it forward again.
We are putting forward a very modest Amendment. We are asking merely that something should be done which would make this tiresome, time-consuming and costly process just a little less irksome, a little less time-consuming and a little less costly for the firms concerned. The Amendment is completely innocuous, and though the Government may not think it is very necessary we hope they will agree to it, if only to show some measure of sympathy for firms who have to go through this horrible process twice, and show to them and to others that the Government are not wishing to go out of their way to persecute them. I support this Amendment.
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE: My Lords, the two noble Lords who have spoken on this Amendment have covered the points so fully that the third Musketeer will occupy your Lordships' time for only a few minutes. However, I should just like to make the point that although one recognises what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said in the Committee stage, that the inquiry of the Monopolies Commission is conducted in an administrative field and on different criteria from those which the Restrictive Practices Court will operate, what we are concerned with here is facts. I think it is immaterial whether the inquiry eliciting the facts was conducted in an administrative field and on other criteria. If the facts still remain—and this is the basis of the Amendment—and are held to be unchanged, then we suggest that it would be a great

747
economy of time and money if the Restrictive Practices Court could take account of this.
5.6 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not know whether it would be proper for me to refer to the mover of this Amendment and the supporters as the Three Musketeers. They have tried to represent to your Lordships that this Amendment should be more attractive to the Government because it really is a very small infant compared with the Amendment which was moved during the Committee stage. Despite the attractive way in which the Amendment has been supported, I am afraid that the Amendment itself is no more attractive to Her Majesty's Government. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, will forgive me for not following him over the wide range of his speech in relation to this Amendment, but the Amendment itself falls within a pretty narrow compass. It is quite true that a very much more far-reaching Amendment was moved in Committee, which would require the Court to make an exemption order where the Commission had concluded that resale price maintenance did not operate against the public interest. This Amendment does not require the Court to do that, but only to take account of any relevant facts established by the Monopolies Commission. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, I gathered that he meant that, if they did receive in evidence the conclusion of the Monopolies Commission, the Restrictive Practices Court would be required to accept it as proof.
There is no question here, if I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, of any endeavour to persecute or be oppressive. But what we think is wrong, when we have created by this Bill the matters which have to be considered by the Restrictive Practices Court, is that certain trades or industries which have come before the Monopolies Commission should be put in a different position from anyone else so far as the determination of the case is concerned. This Amendment proposes that it shall apply to all facts found by the Monopolies Commission, and to that
748
extent I suppose it is put forward as advantageous to the trades whose resale price maintenance had, if one could use the expression, been "cleared" by the Monopolies Commission—for instance, the tobacco trade. But, my Lords, if it was favourable to them it would be prejudicial to the trades whose resale price maintenance had been condemned—wallpaper and electrical components for motor cars, to give two examples.
So the Government think it would be wrong to require a court of law, like the Restrictive Practices Court, to "take into account", whatever that expression may mean, the findings of an administrative body which was not having regard to the criteria contained in this Bill. There really is no parallel between this Amendment and the provisions of Clause 5(3), which relate to the findings of fact by the Restrictive Practices Court. But I can offer to the noble Lords some small crumb of comfort, and I will follow their example of trying to dress it up as attractively as possible. I draw their attention to Rule 55 of the current Rules of the Restrictive Practices Court, which of course it falls to my lot to consider and to make. The terms of that Rule are as follows—and I will leave out the irrelevant words:
"Where it appears to the Court …"
—that is, the Restrictive Practices Court—
… that the Court would be assisted in determining any issue in the proceedings by the admission of evidence (whether oral or documentary) which would not otherwise be admissible under the law relating to evidence, the Court may make an order allowing the admission of such evidence."
My Lords, that is a very wide provision, and all that will be required is for the counsel appearing for one industry—say, tobacco—which comes before the Court, to satisfy the Court that it will assist them if they look at these documents in determining a question in the proceedings. If it is going to lead to the saving of considerable time and to the avoidance of considerable expense, I have no doubt at all that the Court, in its discretion, will say, "Yes, we will look at them." So while I am not prepared to advise your Lordships to accept this Amendment, because I do not think it is right to do so, at the same time I point out that there is already machinery before the Restrictive Practices Court whereby the ordinary rules of evidence can be relaxed if the Court thinks fit, and if the Court thinks

749
it is proper to do so for the purpose of assisting the Court in the discharge of its duties. Speaking from recollection, I think I am right in saying that even in cases that have come before the Restrictive Practices Court already there have been occasions when the Court, under this Rule, has in fact looked at the Reports of the Monopolies Commission.
My Lords, that is the short explanation. I hope I have made it clear, and I hope it will satisfy your Lordships that, despite the persuasive eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, and his noble friends, this is not as good an Amendment as all that and should not be inserted in the Bill.
5.11 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I can assure the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that the gleanings on this particular Bill have been so small that we will certainly not overlook the benefit of any crumb that he is able to offer. In fact, when he read out the extract from the existing enactment he made it sound like not a crumb but an éclair. I can only hope that it will not turn out to be the carraway seed that is so often revealed when we have this kind of assurance. But I find it extremely difficult to understand how the noble and learned Lord can say that the Government found this Amendment no more attractive than the earlier one, because in this Amendment—there is no question about it—we met the two fundamental objections which he had to the previous one.
The only other points I would make are these. It is not clear to me how the Restrictive Practices Court would, through this Amendment, be required to accept it all as proof when they would merely be instructed to have regard to it. The other point is that on the Committee stage the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor pointed out—and I quote his words [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 259 (No. 87), col. 160]:
"It is already the practice of the Court to have regard to the contents of the reports of the Monopolies Commission where these would be relevant … And I can see no reason why a similar procedure should not be followed in exemption proceedings under the Bill."
If that is the case—and it is—then all objections about having to accept something as proof would apply, as the noble and learned Lord said they would apply
750
if this Amendment were accepted. I cannot see any real difference in practice between the statement made by the noble and learned Lord which I have just read out and what we are asking for in this Amendment, except that if the Amendment were accepted then everyone would know, whereas if it is not accepted they will always be in doubt. I should have thought it would be to the benefit of the industries concerned, of the Court, of traders and of the public if these doubts were removed, and that is why we moved this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 7 [Late application to, and review of decisions by, the Court]:
5.13 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I hope it will be to the convenience of your Lordships if I talk both to this Amendment and to Amendment No. 10, which is in identical terms. These are purely drafting Amendments involving no change of substance. Their purpose is simply to distinguish between the procedures under the two subsections. Clause 7 makes provision for two distinct types of application: late applications for exemption, under subsection (1) of Clause 7, and applications for the review of previous decisions of the Court, under subsection (2) of that clause. The Amendments are designed to ensure that proper distinction is drawn between them. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 34, leave out ("in accordance with this section") and insert ("under this subsection").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 42, leave out ("in accordance with this section") and insert ("under this subsection").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11 [Interpretation]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved to leave out subsection (2) and to insert:
"(2) Where the dealer referred to in section 2(1)(a) or section 3(1) of this Act, or the supplier referred to in the said section 2(1)(a), is one of a group of inter-connected bodies corporate within the meaning of the Restrictive

751
Trade Practices Act 1956, the reference shall include a reference to any other dealer or, as the case may be, any other supplier, who is also a member of that group."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 11, standing in the name of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. On Committee, my noble friend Lord Hanworth moved an Amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Jessel adding a proviso to subsection (2) of Clause 11, which excluded its operation in relation to Clause 4. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor then indicated that the Government were giving further consideration to this provision, and on that understanding the Amendment was withdrawn. We are grateful to the noble Lords for drawing attention to the fact that, as it now stands, subsection (2) of Clause 11 is too wide. The Bill as now drafted, for example, requires a supplier company and its supplier subsidiary to be treated as one person for all the purposes of the Bill. This would produce undesirable anomalies. For example, unlawful conduct by one person is treated as unlawful conduct by another person, and renders that other person liable to legal proceedings.
My Lords, the Amendment substitutes a new and narrower subsection (2) of Clause 11, which requires suppliers and dealers who are inter-connected bodies corporate—that is to say, members of a group (in the company law sense of the word)—to be treated as a single dealer or supplier in relation only to the withholding of supplies, including withholding on account of loss leading. It might be convenient if I were just to indicate how this will work out in practice. The new subsection works in conjunction with subsection (1) of Clause 2 and subsection (1) of Clause 3 in the following way. If you have three inter-connected companies, A, B and C, and three inter-connected dealers who are inter-connected companies X, Y and Z, then, first, A may not lawfully withhold supplies from X on the ground that X has been cutting the price of B's or C's goods; secondly, A may not lawfully withhold supplies from Z on the ground that Y has been cutting the price of A's or B's goods; and, thirdly, A may lawfully withhold supplies from X on the ground that Z has been using similar goods as loss leaders. This is the
752
effect of the change proposed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 39, leave out subsection (2) and insert the said new subsection.—,(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I should like the Minister to clarify for me one point about which I think I have been misinformed. Does this Amendment have the result that a parent company will not be allowed to regulate prices of a subsidiary? That is not so, is it?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, that will be the effect of the Bill, and was always intended to be the effect of the Bill. The relationship between two companies within the same group would be that resale prices could not be maintained there, any more than anywhere else. But, of course, one will no doubt be able to recommend prices to the other.
LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE: My Lords, I am sorry to be stupid on this point (I am afraid that I must be), but in the. case of a subsidiary which is the manufacturer and the supplier, in the circumstances set out in the explanation, as I understood it, they would not be re-selling. They would be the original sellers, would they not? If I correctly understood the question of my noble friend Lord Jessel, I thought it related to that. We are talking of resale, are we not, essentially?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I think the question of my noble friend Lord Jessel was related to what was meant by "inter-connected bodies corporate" for the purposes of this subsection, and whether it would mean that there could be resale price maintenance as between a parent company and a subsidiary. The answer to that is that there cannot be resale price maintenance between those two, any more than in any other section of industry, without the sanction of the Restrictive Practices Court; but there can, of course, be recommended prices.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, this is a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 23, leave out from ("date") to end of line and insert ("of the passing of this Act").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

RIDING ESTABLISHMENTS BILL
5.21 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Licensing of riding establishments
1.—
(4) In determining whether to grant a licence for the keeping of a riding establishment by any person at any premises, a local authority shall in particular (but without prejudice to their discretion to withhold a licence on other grounds) have regard to the need for securing—
(a) that there will be available at all times, for horses, accommodation suitable as respects construction, size, number of occupants, lighting, ventilation, drainage, and cleanliness;
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD moved, in subsection (3), after "authority" (where that word occurs a second time) to insert, "or on or after that date". The noble Viscount said: The Committee may remember that during the Second Reading debate it was pointed out that Clause 1(3) was in difficulties inasmuch as it did not cover the initial application for a licence. Clause 1(3) requires that a local authority shall not reach a decision on an application for a licence unless they have received and considered a report by a veterinary surgeon, or a practitioner authorised by them, of an inspection carried out by him within the period of twelve months immediately preceding the date on which the application is received. Obviously, in the case of an initial application a local authority cannot ask the veterinary surgeon to carry out an inspection relating to the premises in question until after the receipt of the application; because until they have the application they do not know where the premises are. It would therefore be quite impossible in an initial application for the local authority to have an inspection
754
in the twelve months preceding the application. My Amendment, by enabling the inspection and subsequent report to be carried out "on or after the date" on which the application is received, remedies this defect in the drafting of the original clause.
Perhaps, before asking the Committee to approve the Amendment, I should point out that the reason for having the inspection carried out in the preceding twelve months is to avoid the need for a further inspection on application for renewal of a licence when, as is likely to happen in most cases, a satisfactory report of a fairly recent inspection has been received by the local authority. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, after ("authority") insert ("or on or after that date").—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
LORD SILKIN: I do not think I have any objection to the Amendment, as such, but I think it is very badly drafted. I think this provision needs a little looking into to make quite clear what is intended. If the noble Viscount will look at the clause, as amended, I think he will agree that it is not very clear. It reads as though they have to have a report from the inspector and that he can make it at virtually any time. The noble Viscount said it was not practical to have a report made before the application was received, because the inspector would know neither the address nor anything else about the establishment. Nevertheless, the noble Viscount still provides for a report to be made within twelve months before the application. I am not objecting to the idea; but perhaps the noble Viscount would consider whether he is satisfied with the clause in its final form, and, if not, will bring up something on the Report stage. If he will do that I am quite prepared to let it go this afternoon.
LORD DERWENT: I will come to my noble friend's help on this matter. The Amendment was drafted by Parliamentary draftsmen, and we are satisfied that it means what the noble Viscount has said. But I will see that it is looked at again by the Parliamentary draftsmen.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, in subsection (4) after "authority shall" to insert:
"have regard to the suitability, qualifications and experience of the person applying for a licence and shall".
The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment which requires the local authority, before granting a licence, to look at the applicant for the licence. Subsection (4) provides for a lot of criteria which have to be satisfied about the conditions of the premises. Paragraphs (a) to (f) all relate to conditions of the premises; but there is no word about the suitability of the applicant. We know that the practice of running a riding establishment has grown rapidly in the last few years, and people are coming to run these establishments not so much for love of horses, as used to be the case, but purely as a profit-making concern. There is no requirement at all that the applicant for the licence should be a suitable person, should know anything about the business, should have any experience of horses or should be of good character.
These people are handling animals and human beings, the riders, and they are capable of inflicting damage on the general public. As I said on Second Reading, I have myself seen horses being managed by young people who have no particular experience of them, who have had quite inadequate training, if any, and have been a menace to the public because they have allowed the horses to run into heavy traffic in a way that might have caused serious accidents. We know many accidents have happened to young riders in the course of their being taught to ride. I feel, therefore, that the local authority, before granting the licence, should have a look at the applicant to see whether, in the words of my Amendment, he has the necessary "suitability, qualifications and experience".
In my Amendment I am deliberately leaving it to the discretion of the local authority to interpret these words as they please. But I think there is sufficient indication in the Amendment of the kind of things the local authority should look for when granting licences. What I am particularly anxious about is that they should look at an applicant to see whether he is a suitable person to run a riding establishment. I am not wedded
756
to the exact words and if anyone can think of something better, I am perfectly prepared to accept it, but I should like the principle of the suitability of an applicant to be established and provided for in the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 14, after "shall" insert the said words.—(Lord Silkin.)
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I have some sympathy with the noble Lord on the word "suitability", but when we come to "qualifications and experience", particularly "qualifications", I find some difficulty. So far as I am aware, we have no machinery in this country at the present time by which a civilian can become qualified to run a riding establishment. In the case of motorists, we have schools of motoring licensed by the local authorities. In the case of horses, we have private courses in horse management run by private individuals, but we have no statutory body to lay down any form of qualification. So, while I have sympathy with the noble Lord's intention, until we have the machinery available for teaching people these qualifications I do not really see that we can insert the word "qualifications" in the Bill.
I should like to draw the noble Lord's attention to the wording on Page 2, lines 13 to 15—
"… a local authority shall in particular (but without prejudice to their discretion to withhold the licence on other grounds)…".
As the noble Lord knows better than I, the local authorities are not fools and if an applicant was obviously quite unsuitable they would refuse to grant a licence. And if it so happened, by some mischance, that an unsuitable person got a licence there is a veterinary inspection every twelve months and the licences are renewed every year. I think we could be sure that local gossip about a person's being unsuitable would permeate through to the local authority and at the time a licence came up for renewal any unsuitable person would find that his licence would not be renewed.
I have great sympathy with the noble Lord's intention, and I am sure that everybody is extremely pleased that the noble Lord, with his wide experience of legal matters, has taken such an

757
interest in this Bill. However, I think that "qualifications" will have to be ruled out, but my noble friend Lord Derwent is going to say a few words on this and perhaps it may be possible to redraft the Amendment to make it acceptable.
LORD FERRIER: I strongly support this Amendment. I think that I am right in saying that the Institute of the Horse has a diploma and that the Pony Clubs are developing a system of diplomas. I think that we are suffering from the absence of the mounted Yeomanry. which used to provide a standard for qualification.
If the word "qualifications" presents difficulties, perhaps some other word of the sort could be embodied in its place, because I feel sure that it would be a great improvement to the Bill to have something of the sort included.
EARL FORTESCUE: I should like to support the Amendment because, as the Bill stands at the moment, it is permissive for local authorities to find reasons for turning an applicant down, but nothing obliges them to have a jolly good look at him before they start. I am not going to express an opinion on the word "qualifications", but we ought to have something of this kind in the Bill.
LORD DERWENT: I wonder whether I can be of help both to the Committee and to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin? If the noble Lord's Amendment were accepted, there would have to be a Government Amendment on Report stage, because the drafting is defective. May I say straight away that we are in sympathy with the noble Lord's intention, but we see difficulties about the actual wording, some of which have been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard. One possible result of adopting the Amendment as it is at present is that it might be interpreted by some local authorities as meaning that licences should not be granted to persons who have no proper qualifications, such as a certificate, but may otherwise be suitable. Therefore, the Government would like to look at this again.
At the moment, we feel that the word "suitability" really covers all the points that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, wants. The word "qualifications" is perhaps
758
too difficult to operate, or may operate unfairly. I would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that the word "suitability" ought to be retained, and if he is prepared to withdraw his Amendment now I will undertake—although this does not affect my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard in any way—to draft a Government Amendment for the next stage to carry out the intention of the noble Lord.
LORD SILKIN: It would be ungracious if I did not accept that offer in principle. I would only say in reply to the noble Lord that merely to leave "suitability" in might mean just suitability as to character. It would have no relationship to the knowledge of horsemanship that is required. What I meant by "qualifications" was, not that they should have some specific diploma, if that is not practicable, but that they should have some knowledge of horsemanship, particularly if they are going to teach other people to ride. I realise that the licence can be withheld at the end of the year, but that is, after all, to use the noble Viscount's own parlance, locking the stable door after the horse has gone. You are giving this person a year's run, and I do not recollect any machinery for withdrawing a licence during the year. It is far better to deal with it in advance. What I would suggest is this. Perhaps the noble Lord will not mind my seeing the Amendment before it is put down. We can have a word about it, and possibly come to some understanding. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 34, leave out ("the").—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.42 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, in subsection (4), after paragraph (f) to insert:
"(g) that the horses are in a good state of health and suitable for the purpose of a riding establishment;".
The noble Lord said: This subsection again sets out all the matters which the local authority have to look into in

759
granting a licence. The various matters included in paragraphs (a) to (f) all relate, in greater or lesser degree, to the conditions under which horses are to be kept. But there is nothing here that I can see which relates to the condition of the horse itself. I have seen horses that are quite unfit to be used for the purpose intended: they are aged horses, too old to carry the burdens that are required of them; horses, particularly at the seaside, that are grossly overworked and overburdened; and horses which are in obvious bad health. I can see nothing here which requires any kind of supervision over them, or which enables the local authority to have regard to the condition of the horses themselves in granting a licence. I submit that when the veterinary surgeon goes round and examines the stable, the feeding, the water supply, and so on, he should have power, also, to say that in his opinion the horses are not fit to be used for the purpose for which they are intended. I am sure the noble Viscount will have sympathy for the object of the Amendment, and I can see no practical reason why it should not he incorporated in the matters which the veterinary surgeon is required to look into. I beg to move
Amendment moved—
Page 2. line 36, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Silkin.)
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, but I should like to point out that at the time a person applies for a licence to keep a riding establishment he may not have bought any horses. It would be quite a gamble for him. He might go and buy some horses and not be successful in his application. Alternatively, he might have one or two horses at the time of the official inspection and after the application is successful he might then buy, perhaps, twenty horses. I would draw the attention of the noble Lord to Clause 3. In that clause, the offences clause, the condition of the horses is fully dealt with in paragraphs (a) to (d). You cannot have a stronger clause than that to safeguard the condition of horses in a riding establishment. I feel that Clause 3 amply covers the noble Lord's point, and I would ask him to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: If the noble Viscount is saying that he thinks the point ought to be covered but that it is covered by Clause 3(4), paragraphs (a) to (d), then I would ask him to look at those paragraphs again. Paragraph (a) relates to accommodation being suitable with regard to lighting, ventilation, drainage and cleanliness. That has nothing to do with the condition of the horse. Paragraph (b) relates to horses being maintained at grass at various times, and that there should be adequate pasture and shelter.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I think the noble Lord has the wrong clause. Clause 3 has nothing to do with horses being maintained at grass or there being adequate pasture and shelter.
LORD AIREDALE: Is not the objection to invoking Clause 3 here the same as was mentioned just now: that Clause 3 starts to apply only after the person has had a run? He may be quite unsuitable. I can see the difficulty that an applicant for a licence may not have his full complement of horses at the time he applies for his licence. But might it not be a good plan to have an Amendment along the lines of saying that any horses for the time being present in the establishment when the licence is applied for shall be suitable for the purposes of a riding establishment?
LORD FERRIER: In the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has said, still believe that Clause 3 does not cover the point that was being made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and I would support, if not the actual Amendment he has put down, something of the sort: that horses should be in a fit state of health and suitable, or something like that. I have personal knowledge of a case in which a horse was let out on hire this spring. It was a perfectly sound horse, but it had on its heavy winter coat. It set off with a party of young people to travel across country for four days at an average of fifteen miles a day. The horse, in its winter coat, was not fit, and the result can well be gathered: the trip was a failure. I do not think the horse was submitted to any suffering, because the people were very sensible about it; but it did get saddle galls. I think the noble Lord,

761
Lord Silkin, is right in suggesting something of this sort in the place he has, as an additional paragraph to Clause 1(4), in order to make it absolutely watertight that the people in charge of the establishment should see that their horses are fit for letting out; and not only fit physically but fit, as I have indicated, in terms of their coats.
LORD HAWKE: Is not the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in the wrong place? Is it not, as my noble friend in charge of the Bill would say, putting the cart before the horse? Would not a proper place to have such an Amendment be in Clause 2, because first of all the man gets his licence, then he buys his horses, and then the local authority may send in a man to inspect at any time? Surely it is at that stage that the inspector should have power to say whether the horse is fit, and so on.
LORD DERWENT: May I say something which might help the discussion? I must say that we are entirely behind what the noble Lord has in mind, but we do not like the Amendment. Perhaps I may explain at some length, because I think it is applicable. Where the horses are already in the stables at the time of the inspection, a local authority already has power to withhold the grant of a licence if the horses are unlit or unsuitable, under the general discretion given to them under Clause 1(4) to withhold a licence on grounds other than those specified in paragraphs (a) to (f). My noble friend is quite right that the provisions of Clause 3(1) are also relevant. These make it an offence for any person to hire out a horse in such a condition that its riding would cause it unnecessary suffering—which I think covers saddle galls—or to keep a sick or injured horse without providing suitable curative care.
LORD FERRIER: The point I was making was that this pony to which I have referred was perfectly fit for an hour or two a day in the spring before it was clipped out, but it was not fit for a trekking expedition. Therefore I feel that a provision of this sort should be in the Bill.
LORD DERWENT: May I go on? Among other things, it is not quite clear what is meant by "suitability". I am afraid that if this Amendment is accepted
762
it will give rise to difficulties of interpretation. Apart from the health aspect, which is referred to separately in the Amendment, the suitability of a horse for use in a riding school might depend upon its age and physical characteristics. Even from these aspects, however, suitability depends to a considerable extent on the extent to which a horse is to be hired out, and by whom it is to be ridden. An elderly horse might, for example, be suitable for limited riding by children, but not for more extensive riding by adults. I am merely reinforcing what my noble friend said.
The matter which worries the Government is this. We think it is very doubtful whether the Amendment, or anything on those lines, if accepted would be enforceable, except, of course, under the general powers of a local authority which I have already described, and which are very far-reaching. We are here dealing with people who want to evade the law, who do not care about horses if they are unfit or in pain, and so on. Riding establishments often accommodate horses other than those which are kept for hiring out—for instance, young horses which are being broken in, those kept for the personal use of the proprietor or his family, or horses kept at livery. It would be relatively easy—and we are talking only about people who are trying to get round this measure—for a proprietor to claim that any horses which were alleged to be unsuitable were not kept for. hiring out. There is, too, the point that certain horses may well be unfit at the time of the inspection, but may be receiving appropriate treatment and not being hired out for the time being. Even if they were being hired out, you would have to catch them being hired out. An inspection might be carried out in the stables, and the owner might say, "I am not hiring these out at the moment", and it might be difficult to prove that he was doing so.
I think it would be unreasonable to expose a riding school to the possible refusal of a licence on the general grounds that some horses were not in a good state of health at the material time. It may be, and it probably is, the case that some horses are at present being hired out for riding which are not fit or suitable for the purpose, or perhaps both. But this is the sort of defect—and this is what I want to bring to the noble Lord's attention—which local authorities may be

763
expected to ask inspectors to have in mind when reporting on the suitability of establishments for licensing. In our view, because of the difficulties in enforcement and for the other reasons, and for the wide powers that are already in the hands of local authorities, we think it would be preferable to rely on the general discretion to withhold licences given to local authorities under Clause 1, and on the provisions, as my noble friend said, in Clause 3(1). We think we shall get into immense difficulties if we write anything more specific into the Bill.
LORD SILKIN: What I am saying is that the local authority should have regard to these things; that is all. They are being asked to have regard to a number of matters such as feeding, pasture, and so on. Why should you not say in the Bill that they should have regard to what I regard as the most important question of all? Once more, I am prepared to recognise that the Parliamentary draftsman can make a better job of it than I have done—he always can. Sometimes the words are intelligible, and sometimes they are not. But if the noble Viscount who is in charge of the Bill is prepared to look at this again to see whether words can be formulated which will give expression to what we all want—that unsuitable horses should not be used in riding establishments, even if they are there for curative purposes-I shall be quite happy to withdraw the Amendment. But I think it is worth considering to see whether words can be inserted to deal with what we all recognise is a need.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I will certainly have words with the various organisations and with my noble friend Lord Derwent.
LORD SILKIN: Then I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Inspection of Riding Establishments]:
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 47, leave out ("section 1 of").—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: This is a further drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 6, leave out ("above") and insert ("of the foregoing subsection").— (Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Penalties and disqualifications]:
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: May I take Amendments Nos. 8 and 10 together? Subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 4 refer to "Section 2(5)" of the Bill but, of course, we do not have a Section 2(5), only a Section 2(4). These Amendments correct that error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 4, leave out ("2(5)") and insert ("2(4) thereof").—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: This is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 6, at end insert ("such").— (Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line S. leave out ("2(5)") and insert ("2(41").—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6:
Interpretation
6.—
"local authority" means the council of a county borough, the council of a London borough or the Common Council of the City of London; as respects any non-county borough or urban district which

765
has according to the last published census for the time being a population of 20,000 or upwards, the council of the borough or urban district; and as respects any other area the council of the county; and in Scotland means the council of any county or any burgh;
6.0 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION LORD CHAMPION moved, in the definition of "local authority", after "county borough" to insert "or county district,". The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the next standing in my name go together. I think that their purpose is quite clear. It is to make all rural and urban district councils local authorities for the purposes of the Bill. I find it a little difficult to see why the sponsors of the Bill selected a population figure of 20,000 or over and said, in effect, that any rural or urban district council with a smaller population is not a suitable body for this purpose—and the purpose is, of course, the functions of licensing, inspection and prosecution under the Bill.
It is strange that the sponsors of the Bill should have taken this figure, since Parliament has already decided that, for the purposes of the Pet Animals Act, 1951, and the Animal Boarding Establishments Act, 1963, county districts, no matter what their population, shall be the local authorities for this purpose. Both those Acts make provision for licensing, inspection and prosecution by the county districts without any reference to the size of their population. Section 4 of the Pet Animals Act, 1951, makes provision for inspection by a veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner of any premises licensed by the local authority on any authorisation by the local authority. Section 2 of the Animal Boarding Establishments Act, 1963, makes exactly the same provision. Clause 2 of this Bill, with the addition of a very few words which in no way increase or decrease the right of the local authority to cause an inspection to be made, has the same effect as Section 4 of the 1951 Act and Section 2 of the 1963 Act.
There have been no complaints at all, so far as I can gather, of the functioning of those county districts I have mentioned under the, in many ways, comparable Acts of 1951 and 1963. Nor have the county districts experienced any difficulties in carrying out their functions, which, in the main, can be economically
766
and expeditiously executed by public health inspectors who are in the employment of the county districts. I think, too, that mention should be made of the fact that under Clause 1 of this Bill a person disqualified under either the 1951 or 1963 Act from keeping an animal establishment (presumably as a result of action by a local authority) is precluded from applying for a licence under the Bill.
Perhaps I might call in aid of my Amendments the words of the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, on the Second Reading of the Bill when he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 259 (No. 87) col. 113]:
"May I say one word, rather 'off the cuff', about the private argument that has ensued between the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. and his noble friend Lord Lindgren. Having heard this argument for the first time between the noble Lords, I believe, on balance, that the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, is right."
My noble friend Lord Lindgren was taking the point of view that I am now expressing: that the county districts are suitable authorities for carrying out the provisions of this Bill. After some further words the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, went on (col. 114):
"One must remember, too, that the general public, in regard to complaints about horses being in bad condition and so on will want to go to their local member. If he is a county councillor he may be too far away; but if he is a man who lives in the next street it can be mentioned to him, and the local authority may then be prepared to send somebody round to look at the premises."
He concluded:
"I think that is really the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren."
Of course he supported it, but I admit that he said his remarks were "off the cuff". He said that he had not consulted his Department about it, and I accept that absolutely.
But the Government's spokesman in another place was not speaking "off the cuff" when, on the Third Reading of the Bill, he said [OFFICIAL REPORT (Commons), Vol. 694 (No. 106) col. 1638]:
"The provisions of the Bill closely follow the provisions of the Pet Animals Act, 1951, and the Animal Boarding Establishments Act, 1963. The former has not given rise to any difficulties of administration, and there is equally no reason to believe that the latter which has only just come into operation, or this Bill, if it becomes law, will not work smoothly and effectvely;".

767
So to that extent, I think we can be optimistic. It is true that he was talking about two Acts of Parliament and was also talking about this Bill which contains this 20,000-population provision. But he clearly was arguing that the Acts passed previously by Parliament were suitable in every way for this purpose.
My Amendment is, I think, soundly based on experience under the 1951 Act, and on my experience as a member of an urban district council. I believe that the urban district council and the rural district councils are suitable bodies for this purpose; and my Amendment is certainly in line with the previous enactments.
I am bound to say that if I thought for one moment that adoption of this Amendment would kill the Bill, I would not even move it. I would certainly withdraw it without a great deal of argument, if either the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, or the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, assured me that if this went back to the other House it would be such a controversial Amendment that it would kill the Bill. The last thing I want is to see this Bill killed: I want it to operate as soon as possible. No one who has ever seen anything of these establishments, who has ever thrown his leg over the back of a horse, would want to see the treatment continuing which is quite often meted out to horses in these establishments. I was bound to think when I heard my noble friend Lord Silkin speaking about the qualifications of some of these people who keep these establishments. I am worried tremendously about the instructions the youngsters give, and no one who has ever seen harsh hands sawing at the sensitive mouth of a horse could ever feel other than worried about the treatment meted out to them. Nevertheless, this is not such a controversial matter as all that. This is a matter of administration and I believe that if this Amendment went back to the other place—which, of course, passed the 1951 and 1963 Acts—it would be approved quite rapidly and without the Bill being held up or killed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 27, after ("borough") insert ("or county district,").—(Lord Champion.)
LORD DERWENT: Before the noble Viscount who is sponsoring the Bill speaks, perhaps I may be able to help. I am not going to argue the merits of this case, but I have had put to me what would be the position of this Bill if this Amendment were carried. Therefore, I thought I would make my only intervention now, if the noble Lord agrees. I am not speaking "off the cuff" to-day, and having gone into the matter, I do not feel strongly either way, any more than the Government do. But, as he has asked me, I would say this to the noble Lord, Lord Champion.
This is a matter about which the different local authority associations feel very strongly and on which they have differing views. The Bill as it stands is, in fact, the result of a compromise reached in the other place and, I am told, to some extent, of discussions outside. All I would say is that if the Bill is amended on this particular point I feel that there may be a serious risk of losing the Bill altogether. Because, as I say, the present wording is a result of discussion and is—I say this quite frankly—a compromise. I thought that I had better put that point at once.
LORD SILKIN: Since I have been referred to, I would say one word. This Amendment has been moved with my noble friend's usual persuasiveness and he has put the case for it as strongly as it can be put. Nevertheless, there is another point of view. My noble friend has quoted a number of Acts which are analogous to this present Bill, but he did not quote the Riding Establishments Act, 1939, under which the local authorities responsible are exactly those set out in this Bill. I think that is a much more reliable precedent than those he has quoted. For those reasons, and for the reason which the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has just given, that this is a compromise, I myself would be prepared to stand on this compromise and accept the Bill as it stands, although my own opinion is that the more suitable authorities would be the larger ones who have under their control the inspectors and veterinary surgeons, and so on. But if my noble friend is prepared to do a deal with me and accept the Bill as it stands, I am prepared not to move at a later stage for the larger authorities.
LORD BURDEN: Like my noble friend Lord Silkin, I agree that my noble friend Lord Champion has put this case admirably to your Lordships. I intervene only because of what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that this measure is a compromise, and I have been asked to state the position of the Association of Municipal Corporations in regard to the Amendment. The Association has considered the Bill during its progress through another place, and it considers it will be a most helpful measure if and when it receives the Royal Assent. But in regard to the Amendment the Association feels that, since this Bill is intended to re-enact the Riding Establishments Act, 1939, with amendments, it is reasonable that the pattern of administration provided by that Act shall be followed on this occasion, leaving the question whether there should be a redistribution of function for consideration in a wider context. In those circumstances, and particularly in view of what has been said by the Minister, and my noble friend's anxiety for the Bill to become law, I do hope that we shall not have this Amendment pressed on your Lordships this afternoon.
6.14 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: I join with my noble friend Lord Champion in supporting this Amendment, and also in desiring not to do anything at all to delay or damage the prospects of getting the Bill on the Statute Book. I want to register one point of disagreement in regard to the suggestion—and I know it is true—that this is an agreed measure. it rather seems to be one of those agreements where at least some of the parties do not agree at all, and certainly that appears to be the position of the Rural District Councils Association because they are very much behind this Amendment moved by my noble friend, as indeed I am.
With regard to the question of suitability, I am not now thinking of the riding schools providing courses for trotting round Rotten Row; I am thinking of riding schools and riding establishments in rural areas. There are some 474 rural district councils, of which 301 have less than 20,000 population. So if the Bill goes through in its present form, and I know it will, it means that two out of every three of the rural district councils will not be local authorities under this
770
Bill when it becomes an Act. I would just say this. In roost cases the rural districts with these small populations not only are the authorities that have the facilities for administering this Bill, public health inspectors and vets readily at hand, but they have a number of riding establishments.
I see the noble Earl, Lord Fortescue, in his place. I am thinking of rural district councils such as Dulverton on the edge of Exmoor, where, of course, almost everybody rides and where quite a large number of horses are hired out, some for hunting, others for going over the moors, and where the need for this Bill is just as apparent as, or even more apparent than, in some urban districts. It has quite a small population, but nevertheless, they have everybody at hand, everything suitable for administering a Bill of this kind. They are indeed the people who know, and I think therefore it is a pity that this deal, as it were, was made outside and that the smaller authorities are going to be excluded. I think it is a mistake, because in many cases they would be the best authorities to administer this kind of legislation.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I do not have any precise knowledge of the number of rural district councils and urban district councils, but I should imagine there must be between 1,500 and 1,800. There are only 2,000 riding schools, and it is surely rather ridiculous to have, say, 1,800 authorities inspecting 2,000 riding schools. It is really rather like Alice in Wonderland.
LORD STONHAM: I think that after this Bill becomes an Act the noble Viscount will find he has a lot more riding schools than he thought. There are many riding establishments hiring out horses which are not registered as riding schools.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: It remains to be seen. But surely it is far better to have the power of inspection and granting of licences in the hands of the authorities who presumably will have within their jurisdiction the necessary officers. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who mentioned the precedent of the Riding Establishments Act, 1939. The county councils have been using their powers in the carrying out of that Act. They do know the business. I feel that if we are going to

771
hand it over to all these small district councils it is going to cause a great deal of unnecessary trouble.
One noble Lord opposite brought up the question that the local inhabitant of a small county area would be far more inclined to lodge a complaint with his local authority, the rural district council. That probably is so. But, on the other hand, there are considerations against that, too. You may have Mr. Smith who is friendly with Mr. Brown on the local council, and perhaps he may have a grudge against the man who owns the riding, school. Human nature enters into this. I personally would be of the opinion that it is far more satisfactory to have this power in the hands of the big authorities.
One noble Lord opposite brought up the question of the precedent of the Animal Boarding Establishments Act, 1963, and the Pet Animals Act, 1961, which of course are administered by district councils. But these are completely new Acts, and we do not really know how they are operating; I think it is too early to say. They have not been working long enough to set a precedent for new legislation relating to riding establishments. As I have already mentioned, the county councils have been exercising these functions for many years, and to operate this Bill sufficiently well it is far better to allow the authorities who already have the available powers and machinery to carry on with the good work.
LORD CHAMPION: I am not going to spend a long time replying, because I said at the outset that if there appeared to be the slightest chance that this Bill would be lost if it went back to another place, I certainly would withdraw my Amendment. I am bound to say to the noble Viscount that the fact that many authorities would have the powers does not necessarily mean that all those authorities would exercise them. They would only exercise them in cases where they happened to have such establishments within their area. There is just one other point that I would mention. The noble Viscount said that somebody on this side suggested that the local member would be approached. It was his noble friend who made that point on Second Reading. I was merely calling him in aid. I shall
772
not prolong this discussion because I think there is something in what the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, said. Having regard to the local authority associations and their feelings in connection with this matter, they might get their champions to ride fearlessly into battle. If this Bill went back to another place, it might cause it to be lost. In the circumstances, I am happy to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported, with Amendments.

TRADING STAMPS BILL
6.25 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair]
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODhad, on Thursday last, moved an Amendment to add to Clause 3 ["Redemption of trading stamps for cash"] the following new subsections:
"(6) Upon delivery of a trading stamp to any person (in this and the next two following subsections called the holder') in connection with the sale of any goods or the performance of any services there shall enure to the holder the right either—

(a) to redeem that stamp (subject to the provisions of this section) for the cash value shown thereon, or

(b) to exchange that stamp for any goods properly described to the holder as being exchangeable therefor;

and any condition or term of any contract or offer which purports to enable that right to be extinguished without the oral or written consent of the holder shall be of no effect.
(7) In the last preceding subsection 'goods properly described to the holder as being exchangeable therefor' means goods—

(a) which have been described in any announcement or advertisement as being exchangeable for stamps of the kind delivered to the holder, or

(b) which have been the subject of any declaration or allegation, made to the holder by any person concerned in the transaction in connection with which the holder's stamps were delivered, to the effect that they were so exchangeable.

773
(8) At the time of delivery to the holder by a supplier of any goods in exchange for that stamp as provided for in subsection (6)(b) of this section of this Act, there shall subsist between the holder and the supplier a contract for the sale of such goods within the meaning of section 1(1) of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893, and to which the provisions of that Act shall apply."
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: The Committee will now resume discussion upon Amendment No. 27, the Question upon which, pursuant to Standing Order No. 50, was left undecided on Thursday last.
Does the noble Baroness wish to speak again?
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: No, not at the moment.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I wonder whether it might be to the convenience of the Committee if I said a word at this stage, because there were a great number of points raised in the debate upon this Amendment last week, and it would certainly be of great assistance to me if I could try to pin-point some of the matters which your Lordships wish to see dealt with, by means either of this Amendment or something like it. I am bound to say that I am not altogether clear what the specific points are at the moment, and I would ask your Lordships' indulgence if I run quickly over what was said. If I then try to put the issues to the Committee, so that we can have a further discussion about them, it may crystallise the matter and make it clear.
First of all, may I deal with the point of the Sale of Goods Act. My noble friend Baroness Elliot of Harwood made a tremendous speech upon this, among other things, at the end of the Committee stage last time, and I should greatly like to know whether she has come to a conclusion upon this point, and whether other noble Lords have come to the same conclusion or a different one. The points at issue seem to me to be these. You have to weigh up whether you want at this stage a complicated Amendment, which I think it would be, which would attract suitable provisions (they would not all be suitable; but some of them might be) out of the Sale of Goods Act and put in a proper legal arrangement to deal
774
with a sale for the purposes of that Act, with a buyer, a seller and a price.
Then, secondly, one must face the fact, that having done that, one is content with a situation whereby, as under all the Sale of Goods Act provisions at the moment, the trading stamp company could quite easily contract out of the whole thing, thereby nullifying all the protection which the Act might have provided and which the Amendment in this Bill would seek to provide. What protection would this give? I ask this because I want to know what your Lordships think about it. I suspect—and my noble friend Baroness Elliot of Harwood referred to them with approbation—that the good companies would probably play fair anyway. I think that the bad companies might easily contract out. Therefore, I am afraid that the attraction of the Sale of Goods Act as it is to-day would probably come to nothing at all.
LORD SHACKLETON: May I interrupt the noble Viscount? On the contracting out, what actual process would they use? Would it be possible to distinguish between the good company that did not contract out and the one that did, so far as the consumer is concerned?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: do not think so. It is comparatively simple. It would require something written, perhaps on the catalogue or some other document constituting the scheme, simply saying that "it is a term of this scheme that Section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act does not apply", and you take it or leave it if you want to go into the scheme. I understand that it is as simple as that, and therefore if a company chose to do it it could do it, and there would be nothing that anybody could do to counteract this action, because one would then have to accept the scheme as such or not at all.
LORD SHEPHERD: Would the noble Viscount not agree that the attention of the stamp collector would be clearly drawn to the fact that the company has contracted out of what is one of the recognised obligations under the Sale of Goods Act?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I should have thought it could be done in such an obscure way that the ordinary

775
consumer would not have taken the point with that degree of ease. But be that as it may, I should like your Lordships' views on this. However, if you wish to stop this, of course it might be done by some form of limitation of the powers to contract out or prohibition of it. This is precisely the Molony Committee recommendation, and is something which my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn promised was going to be looked into in the whole field of the Sale of Goods Act, and not simply as applied to trading stamps. Is it right to put something like that in this Bill ad hoc? My noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood thought not on the Committee stage. Or is it better to leave it until the whole matter is dealt with and, by taking my noble friend up on his assurance that it will be dealt with, see that trading stamps—
LORD CHORLEY: Would the noble Viscount agree that, if we do not have it in this Bill, when the Molony proposals are carried into law they will not bite on this; whereas if it is in the Bill now, when the Molony proposals become law they will bite on it and we shall have solved the problem?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I do not think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Chorley, has read the assurance given by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn last Thursday on this particular point. This was covered and there was an assurance given that there would be a new clause in the new Sale of Goods Bill.
LORD SHACKLETON: Not quite.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think so. I think that it is in col. 419 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 259 (No. 89)]:
"I can give the assurance that it will be considered in connection with the consideration of the Sale of Goods Act as a whole,"
LORD SHEPHERD: Yes, considered.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I do not know that my noble friend could have gone further than that. This is an assurance which he has given, and I should be content to abide by it as being given in every good faith. I should hope to take him up on it if, when the time comes, it was not done.
LORD GARDINER: Is the Bill to be introduced this Session?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I should think not.
LORD GARDINER: Is the assurance worth anything?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This depends, of course, upon what happens next Session. However, that is the issue, as I see it, on the point of the Sale of Goods Act, and I should he grateful for the views of the Committee on this matter.
To go on to the other part of the noble Lady's Amendment, the first provision about redemption in cash need not be discussed any further, as it is already perfectly well covered in Clause 3. Therefore, the remaining point is a statutory contract for redemption of goods. The noble Lady—and I say this in no form of criticism of the noble Lady—set out within a few lines of her speech two different types of contract of this nature. It seems to me to be very important to find out which of these two your Lordships would prefer. Perhaps I could quote them very simply in the noble Lady's words. The first proposition is this [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 259 (No. 98), col. 422]:
"If the consumer wants to collect for an object I think it should be an obligation on the company to try to supply that object."
The second proposition was a few lines later, and was different. The noble Lady said that, when the collector has collected the correct number of stamps for a given article, there is an obligation on the company to have that article in stock, or to provide a good excuse why it is not in stock, or to provide the next best equivalent to it. There are two propositions there. Either you create the contract at the time when the stamp collector gets his first stamp, and thereafter the company is bound to provide him with the goods that he wants; or you feel that that could not be done and wait until the collector has the right amount of stamps or right number of books for the given object. The first of these two propositions seems to me to have a certain number of difficulties. To start with, it is not a hire-purchase type of transaction. If the collector has not collected

777
the correct number of stamps for the goods, it seems to me wrong that there should be a contract at that stage by which he can insist on having those goods. It would inevitably have to be deferred until the stamps had been collected. Secondly, what evidence, or what possible machinery, could there be at that stage for the stamp collector and for the company to pin down the object that the stamp collector has in mind? He might not want what he originally decided on when it came to the point.
It works the other way round, too. If a contract for that article was going to he created at that stage, would it not also be binding on the stamp collector to take it when he collects enough books? Would it not be possible for the stamp company to enforce it against him, as well? This might not be at all a desirable thing. I do not think this would be at all easy to work when collection of stamps spreads over a long period of time, during which all sorts of things might happen—new types of goods coming in, prices changing, and different sets of circumstances occurring at the end of a few years when the books are full and the collector is ready to go and get his article. Those are practical difficulties which would have to be dealt with in drafting a contract at that stage.
The only other alternative I can see is to wait until the stamp collector has the proper number of books for the article which he chooses. Say that it is two books. At that moment you could say that there should be a contract for anything in the catalogue which can be acquired for two books. This would meet the point of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, at any rate to a certain extent. I do not think you could say that there should be a contract at that stage for any specific goods, because how would you decide from the outside what goods the stamp collector had in mind? It could be done only when he had gone to the shop or done some other equivalent act and actually chosen the particular article. I do not think one can do it in a vacuum. The difficulty about this is that in most cases the terms of a trading stamp scheme in itself provide a contract which has exactly this effect. I do not think they all do, but
778
the majority of them would. There is an offer, there is an acceptance, and I think that there would be a contract for a collector to go along and say "I have two books. You advertised certain articles that I may obtain for these books. Here they are. May I have the article?". I think that this in most cases would be a contract, and to make it statutory might add nothing. I hope that that is a synopsis of what was said, and I should be grateful if your Lordships would let me know which of those points, if any, you would like me to try to get into this Bill.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am sure we are all grateful for the manner in which the noble Viscount has refreshed our memory of the debate of last Thursday. I am quite sure that those of us who were present that evening are gratified to see there are now more noble Lords present in the Chamber to help us come to a decision in this matter. I do not think there is any doubt that in all quarters there is some uncertainty as to the effect of the Bill in the protection of the consumer.
The noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, when moving this Amendment, made perhaps the main point when saying that the stamp collector at present has no right at all to the stamps. It is a fact that in many of the catalogues and the conditions that go with them it is clearly stated that the stamp holder has only one right—and that is to place those stamps in the book; that the stamps, the book in which they are collected, and the catalogue remain the property of the issuing company throughout. It may well be that under Clause 3(5) of the Bill in the case of cash redemption we are in some ways giving a right to the stamp collector in the sense that the clause itself gives them a right to redeem the stamp for cash. Subsection (5) makes void any agreement that may be entered into by the stamp company with the stamp collector if it were to take away this power for cash. So in regard to cash redemption, the position of the stamp collector is satisfactory.
We now come to the question of goods. Here again—I repeat this, for it is important—in the case of the presentation of stamps to the stamp company for redemption, the stamp collector has no rights whatsoever—none. I was attracted

779
to subsection (8) which is the subsection dealing with the Sale of Goods Act. It may be that this Act, which has been in existence for many years, has only marginal effect in that it can be avoided by the contracting out of the merchant. But it is a fact that the trader, if he wishes to contract out, has got to go through the particular physical act of so doing. At the present moment, however, the stamp company does not have to do anything, until the moment at which the stamp collector presents his stamps in order to redeem them for goods.
I should like, first, to speak on a very narrow issue, as to what goods shown in the catalogue the stamp collector may receive. These catalogues are produced in very fine form, with good paper and good photographs, and in some cases with definitions—but not always. It may well be that the catalogue has a photograph, shall we say, of a "Hoovermatic" washing machine which many housewives would like, and it may be obtainable for a very large number of stamps. What happens, however, when the housewife sends the stamps to the stamp company and says, "I want the Hoovermatic'"? She may anticipate from the catalogue that she will be receiving a new "Hoovermatic". What happens if the company sends her a rebuilt, secondhand "Hoovermatic"? Will she have any right to change her mind and say, "I asked for that. It does not come up to my requirements. It is not what I believed I was going to get. Therefore, I wish to have something else"? Will she have that right, or will the stamp company say" We supplied you with exactly what we offered"?
We know of the problems and disappointments that arose from newspaper advertisements. In fact, we had to legislate to control the advertisements. I am not sure whether or not that was done under the Sale of Goods Act, but we certainly legislated to protect the consumer from receiving goods which did not meet with what the advertisement would have led the applicant to expect. I appreciate the difficulty of asking the noble Viscount to accept a part of the Amendment or the whole Amendment—certainly, it would be difficult within the Rules of the House to be asked to accept half an Amendment—and this is why I respond very much
780
to the noble Viscount's suggestion that we should try to get clear in our own minds what we should like to see. Certainly, I should like to see some provision which would give the consumers protection. Perhaps it can be done within the Sale of Goods Act. That may be the only vehicle that we have for drawing attention to this matter.
It may be that the wording is imperfect, but the stamp company would have to take a physical act. It would have to state in its catalogues that it was contracting out of the requirements under the Act. I should have thought that that was better than to leave the public, perhaps, to think that the goods in the catalogues were offered under the Sale of Goods Act, when they were not. I should have thought it was infinitely better, even if the wording is imperfect, to put it in so that if the company wished to change its relationship it would have to take a physical act. We appreciate the tremendous difficulties under which the noble Viscount is working, owing to the shortage of time, but I hope that he and his noble friends who are supporting this Bill will consider this matter very seriously, because I think there are many dangers here, and the consumer might be placed in a position where he felt he had had a rather bad deal.
6.45 p.m.
LORD SAINSBURY: Once more I must declare an interest, but I should like to say this in support of my noble friend Lord Shepherd. I have received many letters from housewives complaining of their bitter disappointment—some with very strong criticisms of certain stamp companies—when they have tendered their stamps for a certain article which has been advertised in the catalogue only to be told that the article is no longer in stock. And in some cases they have not even been told that, but have been given a different, an inferior article. I think that the Consumers' Association, would say that they, too, have received a large number of complaints from disappointed people, but have been unable to do anything about them. I am no lawyer, and I appreciate the difficulties; but I do feel that even the perhaps inadequate protection of the Sale of Goods Act would be of some help in protecting the housewife against this, in some cases, sharp practice.
TILE EARL OF SANDWICH: I apologise to your Lordships for coming late into this debate, and I did not hear the opening statements. But from listening to what I have just heard in the last few minutes from the other side of the House, I should have thought it quite clear that a purchaser of goods by redemption of stamps could always investigate the situation, where he or she was doubtful about something in a catalogue, by going to one of the redemption centres and seeing for himself or herself. If customers were to buy the grocery goods of Lord Sainsbury's great establishment as pigs-in-a-poke, no doubt their wild imagination would disappoint them greatly when the goods arrived. But as they, fortunately, go in very large numbers to his grocery establishments and see them for themselves, they are constantly reassured. Anybody who is doubtful about whether the glossy covers in the catalogue do not quite "hit off" the actual article, can go to the redemption centre and see for himself.
I do not think that this Amendment will really fit the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, did not actually state whether the example he gave—of a shopper who wanted a "Hoovermatic" machine and who found, when the stamps were redeemed through the post, that the machine which arrived was a rebuilt second-hand affair—would be caught by the Amendment which has been moved by the noble Baroness. It may be that there is full provision for that sort of thing in Section 1(1) of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893—I do not happen to have the Act by me. But if the case which he has made out is not covered by that subsection, then it certainly is not included in any of the wording in the rest of the Amendment. I think the noble Lord is conscious of that and, if he wants to catch up with that situation, some fresh Amendment will have to be put down.
LORD AIREDALE: I do not find the first part of what the noble Earl said very reassuring, because there must be, I suppose, a number of stamp collectors in towns about the size of Knaresborough or Richmond, in Yorkshire. I do not suppose there are gift redemption centres in Knaresborough or Richmond, and one could hardly expect a stamp trading company to open a gift shop in small
782
towns like that. I do not know where one has to go from those towns. I should think one would probably have to make an expedition to Leeds for the nearest gift redemption centre. Having saved up enough stamps for a "Ken-wood" mixer, a lady might be quite prepared to go off to Leeds to collect the mixer; but I do not think she would be prepared to go to Leeds just to have a look in advance: to see whether there really was a "Kenwood" mixer in the shop in Leeds corresponding to the "Kenwood" mixer in the glossy catalogue which she had seen in the grocer's shop.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I am not going to delay the Committee, because I am going to withdraw this Amendment. However, various points of some substance have been made, and perhaps they could be looked at by the noble Viscount. I should like to thank him very much for the summaries which he made at the end of the debate last Thursday which, as your Lordships know, was very late. I do not want to press anything very strongly beyond the question of some protection under the Sale of Goods Act. I have been told, and perhaps my information is incorrect, that under that Act as it stands (and, like the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, I do not have a great knowledge of the Sale of Goods Act) one could cover the stamp-trading companies, and such people. It could be done.
The noble Viscount says that it would be very easy for them to contract out. I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that if they say they are contracting out, that would at any rate warn people that they could not make any claims under the Sale of Goods Act, and they would therefore know it was going to be no good for them. It is a weakness, I agree, and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, who promises to review that Act and bring it more up-to-date, will in the future be able to make it more effective in this particular respect.
think it is something which the consumer should be granted, in view of the importance of the principle of that Act to consumers who are already covered, or can claim to be covered, by its terms.
The other point with which the noble Viscount did not deal is this curious business about the stamps not belonging to

783
the person who has, in fact, earned them by purchases. It seems to me, in all fairness, that that is something which should be included in the Bill. If the stamps that I earn by my purchases are not mine, whose are they? They are the stamp company's, I suppose. But I have obtained that discount through my purchases, and I have paid for those purchases. It seems to me a little difficult to say that the stamps are not mine. The noble Viscount could no doubt explain why they are not mine, but I think they should be. Those are the only two points in which I am interested, but I hope that, perhaps on Report stage or at some future time, the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, will be able to satisfy us that the Board of Trade really intends to make a serious contribution to this subject by bringing the stamp-trading interests under the Act when it is revised. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
LORD SHACKLETON: Would the noble Lady, before she withdraws it, allow the Committee to have a little more time on it?
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: Certainly.
LORD SHACKLETON: Perhaps the noble Viscount would like to answer the noble Lady's question first.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, would rather precede me.
6.54 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: I expect the noble Viscount would like to reply to all the speeches in one go, rather than have several bites at the cherry. I must say that those of us who heard the debate last week very much appreciate the efforts which the noble Viscount has made, and I echo what my noble friend Lord Shepherd has said. It is a pity that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, was again a little behind time and did not hear some of the noble Viscount's opening remarks. We are all agreed that this particular Amendment is not suitable, and the noble Baroness never thought it was. She does not claim to be a skilled Parliamentary draftsman; and this matter has caused difficulty even to such a skilled lawyer as the noble Viscount—and I really think the noble Viscount
784
must be a pretty skilled lawyer, because of the clarity of his explanations. When he tells us it is exceedingly difficult to draft something in this Bill, then I absolutely accept that. None the less, there was some gleam of hope in his speech. He rather asked the Committee to express views on certain matters. I agree very strongly with the noble Baroness—and, surely, everybody must agree—that it is a ridiculous situation that the stamps do not belong to the person who holds them, if this is in fact so.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I do not think that this necessarily matters. It may be indicative of the fact that there is no contract, or it may mean nothing at all; but it would be cured, I think, by the creation of some sort of contract, if that is the way your Lordships' Committee would like it to be done. If a contract were created, I still do not think it would matter whether the stamps belonged to you or not.
LORD SHACKLETON: I entirely agree with the noble Viscount, but it is an indication of the extreme peculiarity—indeed, the ridiculousness—of the situation that there is no contract nor do the stamps belong to the individual who thinks they belong to him.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: There may be.
LORD SHACKLETON: There may be, and that is the point I am coming on to. It is apparent that in a situation of this kind Parliament or the Government ought to try to provide safeguards of the kind that are provided in many other fields, and which have been provided not merely in the last few years but in the last fifty or more years. It is obvious that some sort of contract needs to exist. I must say that I am attracted by the idea, taking into account the practical side, that such a contract should exist, should be created or should be deemed to exist at the time the individual hands over the completed stamp book. One would very much like it at the time he got the stamps, but this is obviously not practicable. Customers may hold on to them for years. If, therefore, a contract could be created at that time, this would seem to me to be a satisfactory advance.

785
It would also make it more possible, perhaps, to apply at the same time certain sections of the 1894 Sale of Goods Act. I am not going to press the noble Viscount too far, but he will recall that in Clause 1 certain sections of the Companies Act have been applied. I think it is obvious that certain parts of the Sale of Goods Act would not be suitable: nor am I clear whether it would be possible to draft a clause in the form that not only is a contract deemed to take place but a sale, also, is deemed to take place at such a time, because I am not sure that otherwise it is a sale. It presumably is not. It might be that, in those circumstances, if it were deemed to be a sale, no reference to the 1894 Act would be necessary at all; it might be that the words "for the purposes of the 1894 Act" would suffice; or there might be a reference in relation to particular sections only—those relating to conditions and warranties; for instance, Section 10. If this could be done, I think there would be a very real advance.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Shepherd and other noble Lords that the fact that it is open to a stamp company to opt out is not an insuperable difficulty, or is not one that is decisive. It seems to me that if the stamp company has to opt out in some way, they have to opt out in precise terms. I do not know where this disclaimer would be. It would presumably be on the catalogue—or, rather, either on the catalogue or on the stamp book itself, because, after all, the stamp book would be the document in the possession of the customer or consumer. This is a point on which possibly my noble friend Lord Gardiner would be able to help, if the noble Viscount feels unable to clarify it.
I should like to know how this disclaiming has to be done. On a railway ticket or an airline ticket it appears, perhaps, on the ticket. In the case of a cash transaction, I am not quite sure. After all, the Sale of Goods Act makes a cash transaction a contract for the purposes of that Act. I am not quite sure where this disclaimer comes in. It may be that perhaps I ought to know. Equally, my noble friend Lord Sainsbury might be able to help on this point. It is quite important to the precise consideration of
786
this matter, and I therefore hope that we shall not shrink from applying the Sale of Goods Act if it is possible, even though it is equally possible for people to disclaim. We all agree that the good stamp company does not need this—although even the good stamp companies have gone in for some rather odd things, and it may be that some of the complaints mentioned by the noble Lady have related to stamps from even good companies. But I hope that we can get this right.
The problem would not exist, of course, if we had been able to write into the Bill a proper cash value—and this is the point that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, made— because in the last resort people can always ask for the cash. But we have been unable to do this; and I think this is the best hope of doing so. I am sure the Committee—and I hope we are all in agreement on this—will welcome any effort that the noble Viscount can make, both to apply the Sale of Goods Act and to establish a contract at some stage, presumably in relation to the current catalogue at the time the goods are handed over. People may say that that will be of no value because at any moment the companies can alter the value of their stamps in relation to the catalogue.
It is astonishing how totally unprotected people still are on this point. At an earlier stage there were some attempts to establish the prior rights of the stamp holder and various speakers in your Lordships' House and in another place asked: "Why should their claims come before that of the trade creditor?" But at the moment they do not come anywhere at all. It is still open for the stamp company, instead of writing down its shares, to write down the value of the stamps, provided that they do not go below the actual cash value; but they may be only 25 per cent. of what individuals had thought was the real value. This is, even then, a limited protection: for there is no protection against the company which is forced, through bad trading or management, into a situation—or does it wilfully—where it cannot meet its obligations. Such a company can still opt out.
However, we are reckoning that most of these trading stamp companies will go on, and the catalogues, one hopes, will be valid. People will notice if new catalogues come along with infinitely less value; and there is, in any case, the effect

787
of competition—which seems to provide quite a good protection. I wish we could do more; and I would only add that I think the Government's attitude over this has been extremely feeble. It must be apparent to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, that much more thorough legislation is necessary. None the less we congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, who goes on battling, for the way he has taken notice of our criticisms.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am grateful to the noble Lord and to other noble Lords who have spoken, because I think my task is a great deal clearer. At any rate, I have the views of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, as to when the contract is created. The stage he suggests, I think, might be practicable. Earlier on in the process I did not think it could be done even at that stage. I might say to the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, that I do not think it will be the panacea he is seeking; because if you start collecting in this year and do not collect enough stamps until 1970 to redeem the article of your choice it is perhaps not surprising that it is not the same as it was at the beginning of this year. We cannot reasonably rule out the freedom of the stamp company to bring in new articles, to bring their stamps scheme up to date, and, if necessary, to change their prices, if they are forced to do so.
I am grateful to noble Lords for the greater clarification I have had on this issue. It may be that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, wishes to attract some provision other than the sale of Goods Act; because I am not certain that the point he raised is covered by it. If he can give me specific references, I will look at them. However, I understand that the noble Lady is to withdraw her Amendment, and I have now a considerable amount of information to get my teeth into before the next stage, and I undertake to have a thorough look at this.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Does the noble Lady wish to withdraw her Amendment?
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: Yes, I wish to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
7.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved, after Clause 4, to insert the following clause:
Advertisements referring to value of trading stamps
" .—(1) It shall be unlawful for the promoter of a trading stamp scheme, or for any person carrying on a trade or business in which a trading stamp scheme is operated, after the coming into force of this section to issue or publish, or cause to be issued or published, an advertisement in any medium which conveys, or purports to convey, the cash value of any trading stamps—

(a) by means of a statement which associates the worth of any trading stamps with what the holder pays or may pay to obtain them, or

(b) in terms which are misleading or deceptive.

(2) A person contravening this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.
(3) For the purposes of this section an advertisement issued by way of display or exhibition in a public place shall b treated as issued on every day on which it is so displayed or exhibited, but in proceedings brought by virtue of this subsection in a case where the display or exhibition began before the date of the coming into force of this section, it shall be a defence to show that the defendant had taken all reasonable steps to secure that the display or exhibition was terminated before the date."
The noble Viscount said: I hope that at least this Amendment will bring a little joy into the life of the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, because this does, I hope, meet the third of the criticisms that were put forward in the Consumer Council pamphlet on the deficiencies in the Bill. This new clause will prohibit the misdescription of cash value of trading stamps in any kind of advertisement. The examples of this are well known to us all. There is the "£1" voucher with which the front of the document I have referred to is well and truly embellished and there have been other examples. One was given by the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, in his speech in the Second Reading debate. But, at any rate, I hope that this Amendment will stop this practice.
It will make it a criminal offence for a promoter of a trading stamp company or a retailer or any person operating a scheme, in other words the person in

789
control of the trading stamp scheme, to issue one of these advertisements. But I would ask the Committee to note that the clause prohibits only advertisements describing the cash value of trading stamps either in terms of the amount expended to obtain them or in any other terms that are misleading or deceptive. I think this will cover misleading advertisements, but will not prohibit the proper advertisements. The penalties will apply only to the promoter and not to the advertising medium, whatever it may be, through which the advertisement was put out. I think this is fair, because I feel the person we want to deal with is the promoter. I think the penalty is the proper one and is in line with other penalties for similar offences in other Acts which have already been passed by Parliament.
I would draw the attention of noble Lords to two further points in subsection (3). The first part provides that there would be a continuing offence if one of these advertisements were left up. In other words, every day it stays a new offence is committed for which a new fine is imposed. The third subsection also provides a transitional provision which will enable the promoter already displaying such advertisements to protect himself if they are beyond his control, if when the subsection comes into ford he is not in a position to withdraw the advertisements. If he shows that he has taken reasonable steps to stop them he will have a defence under this particular subsection. I think that that is right because withdrawal may have gone beyond his control at that stage. Apart from the these technical provisions at the end, I hope this clause will be precisely that for which the noble Lady is asking and that it will be acceptable to the Committee.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I welcome this clause. The noble Viscount is right. This is the first time I have seen something come forward on this Bill which I think really will be of some protection to the consumer. As he knows, I had in an earlier Amendment mentioned a number of practices indulged in by the stamp companies which I thought were misleading and should be made impossible. It seems to me, on listening to the noble Viscount,
790
that in fact this is going to happen under this clause, and I have great pleasure in supporting what he said.
LORD AIREDALE: I wonder whether the word "associates" in the first line of paragraph (a) is really intended to be "equates"? I ask this because, if the word "associates" remains, this will knock out my Amendment No. 30 before we even get to it. This is like having the linesman calling "Fault!" before you even strike the ball.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am very willing to look at that point. If I have succeeded in displacing the noble Lord's Amendment, it may be that I have been even more cunning that I thought. I do not wish the word "associates" to do anything here, in the context of the display of a notice in the shop, but to explain the terms of the scheme and how many stamps one gets for the money spent. If there is any other effect I will see that something is done about it. On the other hand, I do not think that the word "equates" would be right, because it is ofen done in a far less accurate way than that word would require, and it is still extremely misleading. Therefore, this is a matter I should like to look at again. Subject to that, I hope that the Amendment may be accepted.
LORD SHACKLETON: Obviously we welcome this Amendment. I have only one question. Is the noble Viscount satisfied that this covers the most glaring case, that of the voucher which purports to be something else? Can this be called an "advertisement" in the terms of the Amendment?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am advised that that is so.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5 [Display of information in shops]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSShad given Notice of three Amendments to subsection (1), the first being after "operated" to insert ("(a)". The noble Viscount said: I think that it might be convenient if, with this Amendment, I speak to Nos. 33 and 36, which are part of the same point. Their purpose is to ensure that whenever a trading stamp promoter issues a gift catalogue a copy

791
of the current edition is available for inspection by customers in all shops that operate under that stamp scheme. This is the second time that an attempt has been made to put an Amendment of this type into the Bill. On the first time, in another place, the Amendment was found to be faulty. So this is a matter which has been under way for some time.
There are one or two points I would make about what is provided by these three Amendments, taken together. The main point is that it is not made compulsory to issue a catalogue or display. This is because there is, for example, one scheme which only redeems in cash and therefore no catalogue is necessary. There is also the type of scheme which redeems in goods in the shop itself; and here again no catalogue is necessary, because there they are in the shop for all to see. So there is no requirement that there should be a catalogue in all cases. But if a catalogue is issued, these three Amendments require that it shall be on view for the people who are taking advantage of the scheme. I believe that this would be an improvement to the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 27, after ("operated") insert ("(a)").—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD AIREDALE: I think that on balance these Amendments are worth while, but I wonder whether the practical effect will be that fewer catalogues will be issued to stamp collectors to study in their own homes. I mention this point because the last page of the catalogue is used for the purpose of contracting out. If the collector has an opportunity of consulting the catalogue only in the shop, she is much less likely to read the conditions about contracting out on the last page, whereas if she has a catalogue in her own home, she can read at her leisure the whole of those provisions, which we may regard as rather mischievous.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This is one of the disadvantages of putting in the Sale of Goods Act. However well-intentioned the noble Lord is, I rather think that, even if customers read the last page, the purport of contracting out would remain obscure. I do not think that the noble Lord need fear
792
anything about this. One of the points taken care of in this Amendment is that the current catalogue should be on display in the shop. There are difficulties in making a current catalogue available to take away; but, of course, the catalogue is the main sales instrument of any scheme. The promoter has lavished an enormous amount of attention and care on printing a coloured catalogue, and the noble Lord need have no fear that the stamp companies will seek to limit the distribution of these catalogues; because if they did so, they would not be getting the benefit of the attraction of the goods shown in them and their advertisement of the scheme. I do not think that the Amendment will have this effect.
LORD SHACKLETON: Is the noble Viscount satisfied with the definition of "shop" which arises in connection with this Amendment? On looking at the Interpretation Clause, I see that "shop" is drawn as widely as humanly possible, but even then are there any trading stamp activities which may take place outside
"any premises, and any vehicle, stall or place other than premises, on or in which any retail trade or business is carried on:"
It might not be a retail business—I am thinking of the garage which, under manipulation under the Resale Prices Bill, ceases to be a retail establishment and instead becomes an agency.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: I wonder whether my noble friend would look at the possibility of substituting the word "copies" for "copy", in line 4 of Amendment No. 33. We all know what happens to a much-used London Telephone Directory on the slab of a large hotel. It seems to me that if we are to require only one catalogue to be kept in a large departmental store or multiple grocery, it will soon get into a tattered condition and there is no requirement in law for the owner to renew it, except when a new catalogue is issued. If "copies" were substituted, then, of course, they could be confined to two, which would not be too expensive for a small shop or store.
LORD AIREDALE: Or perhaps at the next stage, before "copy" we could insert the word "clean".
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think that is asking for litigation. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, raised the

793
question of the definition of "shop". This is a highly complicated matter and there is a great body of court decisions upon the meaning of "shop", as well as numerous definitions in various Statutes. Without having had notice, I do not know how this particular definition fits in. At the moment, I can think of no activity that would be carried on outside this definition. Perhaps the noble Lord will be able to think of such an activity. If he will write me about what he has in mind, I will see whether it can be covered. I think the definition is drafted as widely as it can he at the moment.
I should like to look at the point raised by my noble friend Lord Sandwich to see whether it can be dealt with in a way that will not be too burdensome and require too many copies of these fairly expensive catalogues to be produced. I think it is a good point, and I should like to study it. Otherwise, I think the Amendment is acceptable.
LORD SHACKLETON: I was thinking of a house-to-house salesman who might carry the catalogue but might not carry the current catalogue. I do not think that is a shop, although perhaps if he comes on a vehicle, or stands in a stall he becomes a shop. I will leave it with the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: If this itinerant salesman comes round, does he not convert the front door step on which he is doing business into a shop?
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
7.22 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE LORD AIREDALE moved, in subsection (1), after "number" to insert:
"and aggregate cash face value".
The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment to that part of Clause 5 which requires retailers to display in their shops notices which will enable stamp collectors to know the number of trading stamps to which they will be entitled in relation to purchases they make. The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that not only the number of trading stamps shall be stated, but also their cash value. If trading stamps are going to have cash values of, say, one-seventeenth of a penny, and the lady shopper is entitled on a certain purchase
794
to 23 trading stamps, her arithmetic may not be up to calculating what is the value of 23 trading stamps, each worth one-seventeenth of a penny. I should have thought it was a help to everybody, and particularly to the shopper, that not only the number of stamps should be displayed on the notice, but their cash value as well. Presumably, stamp trading promoters will not be ashamed of their cash values—they will be quite pleased that people should know them—and, in my submission, it will be of great help if not only numbers of stamps but cash values, as well, are shown on these notices. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 29, after ("number") insert ("and aggregate cash face value").—(Lord Airedale.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am a little puzzled about the problem that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has here in mind. It may be that some people want more help with their arithmetic than others, and probably I need as much as anybody, but, seriously, I do not think there is any need to legislate on behalf of the ordinary person in adding up this type of thing, even if it could be done. Perhaps the noble Lord does not quite appreciate how I envisage this system of notices working. The noble Lord at one stage (I think it was in his Second Reading speech, or perhaps it was privately to me) suggested that the effect of Clause 5, as at present worded, would be to require a shopkeeper to put up a list of literally every item in his shop, with the price and number of trading stamps against it. This would then, no doubt, be a format into which the noble Lord's Amendment could fit, because then it would be possible to add up the face value of whatever number of trading stamps was set against the particular article. But I think this would be a ludicrous form of notice to put up. Imagine, first of all, the size of it. It would be impossible for the shopper to find her way through a prodigious notice of every article in one of Lord Sainsbury's stores, supposing that there were such a thing as a trading stamp in one of them.
I do not think it is reasonable to ask the shopkeeper to put up that type of notice. The type of notice that I

795
envisage going up under the terms of Clause 5 is something on these lines:
"For every 6d. spent in this shop one trading stamp will be delivered, except for chocolate and cigarettes, for which you will get no trading stamps; but on Tuesday you will get two trading stamps for every 6d."
I envisage something quite simple, in that form, setting out the way the shopkeeper is operating the scheme, setting out the goods for which you get no trading stamps, and any particular terms, such as the Tuesday one I have mentioned, where he is prepared to try to attract people to his shop on a slack day. I do not envisage anything more complicated than that, and into that type of notice the noble Lord's Amendment could not fit, because there would be nothing to add up and no list of goods against which the aggregate could be set. The notice he suggests is not the sort of notice that I should wish to see provided under Clause 5, and I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.
LORD AIREDALE: I admit that I did express (and it was privately) those fears which the noble Viscount has perfectly accurately recollected and expressed. I am only thankful that my fears were unfounded, and that a complete inventory of all the items of the shop will not be published, with the numbers of trading stamps against them. Nevertheless, however simple the notice is, and even if it says that for every 6d. you get one trading stamp, and says nothing more, my Amendment seeks to ensure that it shall say in addition: "One trading stamp worth one seventeenth of a penny" or whatever it may be. Then, customers going into the shop for the first time and wondering whether they will become stamp collectors will have a clear idea of what the cash value of these trading stamps is, and will be able to make up their minds whether they want to join the scheme or shop somewhere else. I hope, therefore, that the noble Viscount may find the Amendment acceptable.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The "aggregate" is not the correct word, because there will be no aggregate against which any sum can be set; nor will it help on arithmetic, because it will be the simple value, which is shown
796
clearly under the other clauses of the Bill, on the face of every stamp in the shop. If a customer wishes to know the value of a stamp, all she has to do is to ask to look at one. I do not see that this will help at all.
LORD SHACKLETON: Now that we have this clear, I think that it becomes a rather more attractive idea. The Amendment as it stands is, of course, not suitable, but if the shopkeeper is required to put up the number of trading stamps for the transaction, even if it is one trading stamp for 6d. or whatever it may be, why not put up the cash value at the same time? The noble Viscount says that they have only to get the trading stamp to see the value; then they have only to buy something to know how many trading stamps they get. It would seem to me that one is giving a little more information. I suggest, quite seriously, that this does seem to be advantageous in relation to cash values.
The noble Viscount argued quite eloquently in an earlier debate—at least, I think he did; certainly some noble Lords did—that competition would be effective in relation to cash values. This is one way in which one can encourage that competition. People go into a shop; they see what they get in the way of stamps, and they see the cash value of the stamp. They can see that in one scheme they only get 056 of a penny, and in another they get 78, or something like that. I should have thought that this was an idea worth exploring, and if would seem to require only a fairly simple Amendment. I do not mean the Amendment, as drafted. I think the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, accepts that this is based on a misconception, and I may say that it is one that I shared. But now that we have this point clear, I think there is something in the idea. and perhaps the noble Viscount would like to consider it. I am urging this quite seriously.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I do not think there is any particular objection to this. The rest of the terms of the scheme are to be displayed in the shop, and if the noble Lord thinks this might be an improvement I will certainly look at it again. I see no reason, on the face of it. why if the number of stamps you are to get is displayed in the notice you should not also have some

797
remark about the face value of them. I will certainly respond to the noble Lord's suggestion, but not to this Amendment.
LORD AIREDALE: I am obliged to the noble and learned Viscount. I, too, quite accept that the Amendment in this form is not satisfactory. I must confess that it was not until I heard the noble and learned Viscount's exposition just now that I got a picture in my mind of how the provisions of Clause 5(1) were going to be applied. That is why this Amendment, in its present form, is defective. In the hope that we may return to this subject later, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD AIREDALE: This Amendment also springs from my difficulty in appreciating the true meaning of Clause 5(1). It occurred to me that the quickest and simplest way to express, for the benefit of shoppers, the number of trading stamps to which they would be entitled would be to do it on the notice in the way this Amendment says—that is to say, in respect of every 10s. spent on purchases or on any other transaction. I am not wedded to the sum of 10s. If you like to take every 5s. or £1 spent I do not mind at all. But I thought that this Amendment was perhaps clearer, if I may say so, than Clause 5(1) in its present state. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 29, leave out from ("entitled") to the end of line 30 and insert ("in respect of every ten shillings spent on purchases or on any other transaction").—(Lord Airedale.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think this also arises, as the noble Lord said, somewhat from the same cause. I am a little unhappy about the terms of this Amendment. There is a limit, I am perfectly certain, to the degree which one can in legislation spoon-feed the customer in a matter of arithmetic. If the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is right, and a notice is to be put up of the face value of the stamp, then it really cannot be beyond possibility that a customer can work out how much he or she will get for 10s. or any other sum. The danger I foresee arising out of the noble Lord's suggestion is that, if customers are in such need of help and instruction in their
798
arithmetic, it perhaps presumes that the noble Lord is thinking of people who may not be very clear about the whole terms of the scheme. If you suggest to them that you get a certain number of stamps for 5s., 10s., or whatever it may be, it may appear to them to be the case that you get stamps only if you spend 5s. or 10s.; they may not realise that this is merely a logarithmic calculation, or whatever it may be, to assist them in their arithmetic. I think this may be quite misleading, and I should like the noble Lord to think about that, because, after all, the last thing one wants in putting up notices to help customers is to do them out of the stamps to which they are entitled. I seriously think that this might be the result.
LORD SHACKLETON: The shopper will not need a logarithmic table, but it might be desirable to provide a slide rule. Some of these calculations will be anything but simple. I would not press this, but I should still like to see some noble Lords multiplying 0·164 by 15, or whatever it might be. Perhaps just a bit of pencil and paper is needed, or it may be that a suitable table is needed at the check-out point.
LORD AIREDALE: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I put down this Amendment in order to meet a point the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, mentioned to me privately. I do not intend there to be a large list of all goods in the shop and I thought that possibly the word "given", in the place where it appears in this clause, would suggest that this was the intention. I do not think it does any harm to leave it out, and if you agree, I think it will produce the type of notice I have already explained to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 30, leave out ("given").(Viscount Colville of Calross.)
LORD AIREDALE: I am a little disappointed in the noble and learned Viscount, because at one stage I thought that his Clause 5 was going to require a complete inventory, and that this was his secret weapon for destroying stamp trading altogether.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I have already spoken to this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 30, at end insert ("and
(b) if any current catalogue has been published for the trading stamp scheme by or on behalf of the promoter, a copy of that catalogue shall be kept where it can be conveniently consulted by customers.")—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This Amendment provides for the insertion of a defence for the shopkeeper who fails to comply with what are now the two requirements in Clause 5: first of all, to keep up a notice showing the terms of the scheme and, secondly, to keep a current catalogue. As your Lordships will appreciate, there may be occasions, particularly when it comes to the catalogue, where the failure to provide it, or to provide a current one, is outside the control of the shopkeeper. It may be that his catalogue has been lost in the post, or was not posted by the trading stamp company in time, or something of that nature. Technically, as the clause now stands, he would be absolutely guilty of the offence, and he would have no excuse whatever to bring when he came before the magistrates' court. I think this is unreasonable, and I have therefore provided him with a let-out if he can show a reasonable excuse why he has not complied with the provisions of this clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 33, after ("If") insert ("without reasonable excuse any of").—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AIREDALE: I understand that the law of England recognises personal injuries, on the one hand, and damage to property, on the other. But this subsections says:
"If any person 'injures' any notice …"
I should have thought the phrase "if any person damages any notice" was more appropriate. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, leave out ("injures") and insert ("damages").—(Lord Airedale.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This Amendment causes me a certain amount of grief, because at one moment
800
I thought I should be able to accept at least one of the noble Lord's Amendments. But in this case I am afraid I cannot do so, and I will tell the noble Lord why. This subsection is treated in exactly the same way as Section 138(4) of the Factories Act, 1961, which also deals with notices which you must not pull down, injure or deface. It is, I think, in the interests of conformity to statutory language, where you are dealing with a precisely similar set of circumstances, that you should use, if it is possible to do so, precisely similar words. It is true that the word "injure", when it is applied to an article is of somewhat archaic usage, but I do not think it is entirely impossible to understand it in the clear sense in which it is meant, and it might be a little broader than the word "damage". I should like to quote one authority which is one I found in Murray's Lexicon for the use of the word "injure" in this particular sense. It goes as follows:
"Those parts of the wall which are near to the ground, but the alternate injuries of dust and wet are very apt to moulder and rot."
That comes from Leoni's translation of Alberti's Architecture, 1726. So it is possible to find a precedent, and I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.
LORD AIREDALE: I do not mind a bit what the Factories Act says, and I am not going to withdraw this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 39, at end insert—
("(5) In this section 'current catalogue' means any such catalogue as is described in section 4(1) of this Act, being a catalogue which has not been superseded or withdrawn.")—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 5, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
7.40 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: I should like to say just a few words. I am very grateful for the noble Viscount's explanation as to what the promoters had in mind in regard to the notice that must be posted

801
in the shop premises, but, as I understand it—and I think this is right—it will be the duty of the shopkeeper to put up the notice. Equally, I understand that it is the duty of the shopkeeper himself to prepare the notice. Therefore, we may well have many types of notice in all the different shops with the same object of giving information.
It may well be that one shop will have its notice in a fairly large print coming within the definition that it "will enable customers readily to ascertain". Equally, I should have thought the notice might be a small typewritten notice done on a machine with a very small type-face. It could still be claimed that it enabled customers "readily to ascertain", but it might be very difficult when relating that type of notice to the premises in which it was being displayed. This morning I went into a small shop in Streatham in which it was very difficult to move around because of the amount of goods on display. Apart from that there may be a mass of advertising literature and notices perhaps showing "knock down" prices that one sees in many shops.
I should have thought that if the notice is not very clearly readable, or of such a character that the public's attention is drawn to it, the notice will be of very little value. I wonder whether the noble Viscount would perhaps have some consultation with the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, whose Department, I think, was responsible for the Weights and Measures Act (and I believe also some other legislation, including the Hire-Purchase Bill on which we had some discussion over the legibility of documents) to see whether subsection (1) can be re-phrased. I think that responsibility should be laid on the shopkeeper to ensure that the notice is of such a character that it can be read easily and without difficulty by the harassed shopper.
I appreciate what the noble Viscount has in mind with regard to the notice. It may well be that the shopkeeper would have a very involved notice, not with the intention of making things difficult, but in order to give information to the shopper; but it may be so confusing that it may be of little value. I should be grateful if the noble Viscount would have
802
consultations with the Minister for his Ministry have had some experience in drafting provisions in legislation dealing with this problem, and I am sure that one or two words added to this subsection could make the responsibility of the shopkeeper clearer.
LORD AIREDALE: Might I ask why this clause begins with the words:
"In the case of every shop … there shall be kept posted a notice …"?
Why does it not say: "In every shop there shall be kept posted a notice"? If you say only, "In the case of", it might mean that the notice could be kept posted on the pavement outside the shop. Would the customers have to go and stand in the rain in order to study it?
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I should like to support the noble Lord Lord Shepherd, on this question of legibility, because so much difficulty is caused when people who wish to escape their obligations print things in fine print which one cannot read. We have had this point before, in connection with hire-purchase agreements, and so on. I think it would be a great help, and also very wise, to include some such words as "clearly written", or some similar phrase. These notices should not be typed in tiny print on very flimsy paper which tears so easily that it becomes useless. I think it would be of value to put in a word or two to this effect.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think this is probably a good point but I wonder whether it would be adequately dealt with in the mind of the noble Lord and noble Lady if the subsection read:
"There shall be kept posted such a notice as will enable customers readily to ascertain …"
I think the main difficulty, where there is a penal provision that will have to be interpreted in the magistrates' courts, in most cases, is that it is undesirable to get involved in requiring a whole lot of things to be proved. If you use words like "clear" and "legible", as well as "readily ascertained", this provides three things upon which a dispute could arise in a magistrate's court. That, I am sure, is undesirable. If it can possibly be done in one word, that is the best way of doing it. I will look into the noble Lord's suggestion to see if the wording can be

803
improved. So far as Lord Airedale's point is concerned, I have no idea what the answer is. It has always been thus in the Bill. I will see whether it should remain so.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Interpretation]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 6, leave out ("herein") and insert ("in this definition").—(Viscount Colville of Cuirass.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This Amendment also is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 10, leave out ("herein") and insert ("in this definition").—(Viscount Colville of Cuirass.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraph (c) of the proviso, and to insert:
"(c) in the case where a business is carried on at six or more separate retail establishments, the stamp is one of a kind obtainable at no more than six of those retail establishments, and not obtainable by the public elsewhere and the arrangements under which it is redeemable are entirely separate from arrangements under which any other stamps, whether trading stamps or not, are redeemable."
The noble Viscount said: This is a fairly important point, although perhaps not a very large one. I am sorry to have to inflict upon your Lordships and upon the public the definition of trading stamps which appears in this Bill at the length it does, but in order to be perfectly clear what is to be caught by this Bill and what is not I think it is necessary to go into some detail of the types of things one has in mind, because, of course, there are all sorts of sales promotion other than trading stamps which one does not necessarily wish to treat in the same way as trading stamps.
The clause, as it at present stands, does not, I think, carry out the purpose which was intended. I refer to paragraph (c)
804
of the proviso to this definition. The present wording would enable any chain of shops with six or more retail outlets to carry on a trading stamp scheme without complying with the provisions of this Bill provided that the stamps were redeemable only either at the particular shop where they were issued or at the head office of the firm. This seemed to me to let in the sort of scheme which, although perhaps from the point of view of its promoter is quite different, from the public's point of view is quite indistinguishable from any other trading stamp operation. Because, after all, if a large chain of shops issues coloured pieces of paper which have precisely the same effect as any trading stamp issued by a trading stamp company separate from the shop from which the trading stamp is issued, I do not see any reason why, from the consumer's point of view, you should differentiate between them, and why you should not have face value and the rest of it written on them.
I have sought in this Amendment, therefore, to change the provisions of this definition. Although paragraph (b) for the most part exempts from the terms of the Bill, as not being a trading stamp, the type of retail trading stamp when it is issued on a small scale, the new provisions of paragraph (c) will, I think, tidy it up. It says that if a chain of shops issues trading stamps of one particular brand in one particular scheme in more than six of these shops. then these shall be trading stamps. The number "six" is purely arbitrary, but I think it is as good a figure as any other; and I do not think there is any likelihood of there being a misuse of this provision because I cannot envisage any sensible company making entirely separate provision for each group of six shops in order to get out of putting the face value on the stamp. I think this closes a loophole and will be to the benefit of the consumer and give a little more protection under the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 15, leave out lines 15 to 21 and insert the said new paragraph.—(Viscount Colville of Cuirass.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9 [Short title, extent and commencement]:
7.51 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I explained the purpose of this Amendment at an early stage last Thursday. I would just remind the Committee that it is a result of Lord Shepherd's suggestion that different parts of this Bill might come into force at different times. It provides for Clause 1 to come into effect earlier than the later, more difficult, administration Clauses, Clauses 2 to 5, and I hope it will have the approval of your Lordships. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 45 leave out subsection (3) and insert—
("(3) Section 1 of this Act shall come into force at the expiration of a period of six months beginning with the date of the passing of this Act, and sections 2 to 5 and section (advertisements referring to value of trading stamps) of this Act shall come into force at the expiration of a period of twelve months beginning with that date.")—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD SHEPHERD: I am most grateful for what the noble Viscount has done in this matter, but I think it would be very ungenerous of me if I did not say that the germ of the idea in fact stemmed from the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, on Second Reading. Therefore, in accepting the credit, I should like to associate the noble Earl with it.
LORD SHACKLETON: Since this is the last Amendment, I do not think we should leave the Committee stage without noting that this has been rather a profitable hour-and-a-half, and I hope the Chief Whip is more reconciled to our performance the other night. I notice he is here to see we do not get out of order on this occasion. I think that we have achieved quite a lot. I am sure the whole Committee have recognised the great amount of hard work the noble Viscount has put in. I must say I think his reputation has gone up steadily throughout this Bill, and if he felt a little short-tempered on occasions he also realises that the House has ways of curbing such activities.
We were greatly helped—and this I think was the decisive point in the Bill—by the quite spirited action of the
806
noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, who has fought for the consumer all the way through, rather despairingly at times; and I think it was the last flush of battle in her eye that stirred us into making this further effort. I think even the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, an extremist, like all Liberals, was not so saddened by some of the concessions that were made. What has been most notable has been the total silence of the Government during the last part of the debate, which I can only say is typical of their attitude towards the interests of the consumer.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I should like to join in the congratulations to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for his handling of this Committee stage. I am bound to say that, having said what I had to say at the end of the last debate, I felt I should expedite matters much better by remaining silent, and so I think it has proved. I think we have had a valuable discussion on the remainder of the Bill.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: As I am afraid I held up the Committee several times, I would add my thanks to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for the way he has listened to my pleas for the consumer. I am sorry to tell him they are not entirely finished, but on this occasion I would add my thanks and congratulations on the very skilful manner in which he has handled an extremely complicated Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with Amendments.

BEDFORD CORPORATION BILL
Reported, with Amendments.

PERPETUITIES AND ACCUMULATIONS BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments to be printed.
House adjourned at four minutes before eight o'clock.