Sitting of 12 February 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROADS

    Motorways (Central Barriers)
    Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Transport what arrangement he is making for increasing the width of new motorway central reserves to permit the effective use of rosa multiflora japonica bushes to prevent serious accidents on the motorways; and if he will make a statement of the progress so far made in relation to other central barriers which have been provided and are to be provided on motorways.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): Motorway central reserves would need to be increased to about four times their present width to accommodate a worth-while thickness of this bush. We could not justify this. It would add considerably to construction costs and would take up further valuable agricultural land.
    As regards progress on other types of central barriers, I cannot add to the reply my right hon. Friend gave my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance) on 27th November, 1963.
    Sir B. Janner: What does the Minister mean by the width which, he says, is required for the purpose of these bushes? Is he aware that that is not the case in countries where these bushes are used? As to expense, is it not extremely important that we should use devices which will save life and limb, even though they might cost somewhat more? Is the Minister aware that the use of rose bushes for these purposes is being increased in many countries? Cannot he do something about it here?
    Mr. Galbraith: While I agree with the hon. Member that we must do everything we can to prevent accidents, the central reserves in this country are 13 ft. wide and our information is that, for bushes of this kind to grow satisfactorily, the reserves would have to be about 52 ft. wide, or four times as great. This would add over £110,000 a mile to the cost of roads and I do not think that this would be justified.

    The Hartlepools (Communications)
    Commander Keransasked the Minister of Transport what steps he intends to improve road communications for The Hartlepools in a westerly direction.
    Mr. Galbraith: The special additional roads programme for the North-East announced in the Government's White Paper last November includes improvement of the A.689 which links The Hartlepools with the A.19 and Tees-side, and improvement of communications between Tees-side and Darlington.
    Our divisional road engineer is discussing with the Durham County Council a working programme for the carrying out of improvement schemes. We would hope that a start on this could be made in a year or two.
    Commander Kerans: Will not my hon. Friend agree that proper communications from the Hartlepools to the A.1 are absolutely vital in order to attract industry to the area? So far we have had many Government promises, but very little progress is visible on the spot. Will he do his best to improve the situation right now and not in years ahead?
    Mr. Galbraith: As I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend appreciates, it is not possible to start everything everywhere right now.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, during the last seven years, I have constantly raised the question of the improvement of the A.19 and that on several occasions the Minister has promised to go ahead with it? Now we are told that it is to be started in a year or two. Is that reasonable?
    Mr. Galbraith:I think it most reasonable.

    Gateshead (Western Bypass)
    Mr. Woofasked the Minister of Transport when he expects work to commence on the western bypass through Gateshead County Borough and Whickham urban district linking up with the new Scotswood Bridge.
    Mr. Galbraith: A scheme to provide a better link between the A.1, the Team Valley Trading Estate and Scotswood Bridge is included in the special additional roads programme for the North East announced in the Government's White Paper last November.
    Our divisional road engineer is discussing with the Durham County Council the programming of this scheme. A good deal of survey and design work has to be done. Land will have to be acquired. But all concerned will press on with this as quickly as possible and we hope that work can start within four or five years.
    Mr. Woof: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the best available assessment for this project is that it is likely to cost £4 million and will provide bady needed employment in that area? Does not he agree that it is urgent to develop this road programme in order to enable the authorities to raise the standard of urban environment and traffic planning? Does not he also agree that such effective development is also urgent to give inducement to new industrial and commercial interests and for achieving better access to industrial sites, particularly in the Blaydon area? Will he undertake to bring this programme forward to a much earlier date?
    Mr. Galbraith: I do not think that I disagree with practically anything the hon. Gentleman has said, but while I am fully sympathetic with his point of view, I regret that we cannot bring this forward any faster than we are doing.

    Roads, Cleethorpes (Speed Limit)
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Minister of Transport why he has refused the Cleethorpes Borough Council's proposal to enforce a 30 miles per hour limit from Hewitts Circus for the full length of Grimsby Road, and North Sea Lane, in view of the fact that there
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    have been an increasing number of serious and fatal accidents; if he will review his decision; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Galbraith: We refused to entertain a proposal for an extension of the 30 m.p.h. speed limit for 174 yards along Humberston Road for the reasons set out in my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary's letter of 13th June, 1963. Since consent was refused in April, 1963, there has been no increase in the frequency of accidents. We have now consented to the making of an Order to impose a 40 m.p.h. speed limit between the bridge over Buck Beck and a point 200 yards west of the junction of Church Lane and North Sea Lane.
    Sir C. Osborne: Is my hon. Friend aware that the reasons given in his letter were not satisfactory? Is he further aware that there have been a lot of accidents since I have received it and that my constituents are very worried about this stretch of road? Will he send another official to look at it more sympathetically and give us a better offer?
    Mr. Galbraith: My information shows that accidents have been declining. There were 10 in 1960, 5 in 1961, 5 in 1962 and 4 in 1963. One of these involved a gill jumping off a moving bus and another a dog being run over, so I do not think that I can agree with my hon. Friend.

    Holton-le-Clay (Bypass)
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Minister of Transport if he will give instructions for the immediate construction of the bypass at Holton-le-Clay, near Grimsby, in view of the increasing number of serious and fatal accidents on the long winding road through the village, and of the petition signed by 631 residents which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Louth; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Galbraith: We accept the need for the bypass and are authorising a survey of the route although we have not yet been able to find a place for the scheme in our trunk road programme. As more immediate measures, we are considering the imposition of a

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    speed limit and improvements to give better visibility at junctions in the village.
    Sir C. Osborne: Is my hon. Friend aware that I resent his reply that a girl was hurt merely because she jumped off a bus and that a dog was run over? Is he aware that people are being killed on this stretch of road and that my constituents do not take a funny view of that? Will he see that more money is available to the local authorities to build this bypass at once?
    Mr. Galbraith: We certainly will do the best we can with the bypass. I think that the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question refers to Question No. 10, which we have already passed.

    Trunk Roads, East and West Ridings
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Transport when he expects to receive the report from Messrs. Scott and Wilson, Kirkpatrick and Partners with regard to the present and future trunk road requirements in the East and West Ridings of Yorkshire between the Great North Road and the port of Hull.
    Mr. Galbraith: By the middle of April.
    Sir L. Ropner: Is my hon. Friend aware that waiting for this report has served as another excuse for neglecting the problems presented by the Selby Toll Bridge? Will he give an assurance that, as soon as the report is received, immediate action will be taken to relieve Selby of this long-standing scandal?
    Mr. Galbraith: I cannot accept that this is an excuse for delay in dealing with Selby Toll Bridge, but I cannot give the undertaking my hon. and gallant Friend seeks because we must see what is in the report before we decide what to do.
    Mr. J. T. Price: I have previously had the pleasure of supporting the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Sir L. Ropner) on the question of the public scandal represented by the Selby Toll Bridge. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that both the present Minister and his predecessors have been giving lame excuses in this House in order to
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    avoid taking any action on the abolition of the Selby Toll Bridge? Is it not time the Government cleared up this matter and gave some heed to the protests which have constantly been made in this House during my service as an hon. Member?
    Mr. Galbraith: My right hon. Friend has given an undertaking to provide a high-class road between Hull and the Great North Road and that is precisely what he is going to do.

    Parking Meter Charges
    Mr. Hirstasked the Minister of Transport what stage has been reached in his consideration of the possible adjustment of parking meter charges; and what procedure is to be adopted regarding the consideration of objections to proposals to increase charges, and requirements for public advertisement of such increase.
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): I am considering the comments of local authorities and others on all my proposals for improving the effectiveness of existing parking meter schemes in London, including the adjustment—up and down—of some meter charges. I expect to be able to make a statement shortly.
    Specific proposals for altering charges will be publicly advertised as the Road Traffic Acts require, and I shall take objections into consideration.
    Mr. Hirst: I thank my right hon. Friend for that valuable assurance, which is most helpful, but will he bear in mind that any proposal to increase parking meter charges, which I believe has been suggested in certain cases in the West End by as much as fourfold, would lead to a considerable amount of resentment among the motoring public and would be grossly unfair?
    Mr. Marples: Each proposal will have to be judged on its merits and according to the evidence which is placed before me both by the applicant local authority and by individual objectors, who will have an opportunity to state their cases and give reasons why they wish a change to be made.
    Mr. W. T. Rodgers: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the advantage of having much shorter parking periods at meters so that these can

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    be used genuinely by short-term parkers and not as they are often now, and will be with higher charges, by commuters who are prepared to move their cars every two hours?
    Mr. Marples: I shall certainly consider a shorter period, and that idea was included in the pamphlet which my Ministry sent to local authorities. The House must realise that until it costs more to park on the street than to park off the street people will continue to park on the street, to the detriment of moving traffic.
    Captain Lichfield: Can my right hon. Friend say what progress is being made with his scheme for issuing parking licences to bona fide residents in residential areas which are zoned, or, alternatively, to permit local residents whose roads are metered to park for longer periods?
    Mr. Marples: That is one of the points of principle mentioned in the pamphlet which the Ministry sent to local authorities. I asked each local authority to formulate proposals for its own area if it thought they were desirable. This is a local problem because each locality varies enormously, and I hope that local authorities will bring forward some such schemes for improvements, and we shall see what we can do when we get the objections to, and the support for, them.

    Accidents
    Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Transport what consideration he is giving to bringing into operation some of the Continental practices devised to prevent road accidents.
    Mr. Marples: Our aim is to adopt any Continental road safety measures that would be suitable for this country and there are close contacts at all levels.
    Mr. Bence: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will consider using the Italian system or issuing a red triangle to a motorist, which he puts down 50 metres behind him when he stops in the carriageway for any purpose whatsoever?
    Mr. Marples: I am proposing to make regulations which will permit drivers to put up special signs in an emergency.
    Mr. Gower: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he can explain why we lumber along without any clear priorities at roundabouts? Does my right hon. Friend realise how many accidents are caused by two motorists approaching the same roundabout each assuming that he has priority'?
    Mr. Marples: As my hon. Friend has probably seen, we are carrying out experiments giving priority to traffic coming from the right at certain rounda-abouts, and the Road Research Laboratory is seeing what the results of these experiments will be. If they prove to be favourable we shall consider extending them further.

    Road Junction, Liverpool (Traffic Lights)
    Sir K. Thompsonasked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange for the instillation of traffic lights on the East Lancashire road, Liverpool, at its junction with Townsend Avenue, in view of the traffic hazards to which pedestrians are exposed at present.
    Mr. Galbraith: We do not consider traffic lights are justified at this junction at present.
    Sir K. ThompsonHow does my hon. Friend reach such a conclusion when everyone in the area knows that it is absolutely necessary to have this kind of controlled crossing in order that people may walk across the road? Is my hon. Friend aware that traffic movements have been so successful that the traffic moves so quickly as to prevent pedestrians crossing the road? Surely something should be done to help them?
    Mr. Galbraith: My information is that in the last three years only three pedestrians lave been injured, but in view of what my hon. Friend has said, I am arranging for the divisional road engineer to have a new count taken and in the light of that, we can reconsider the matter.
    Sir K. Thompson: Will my hon. Friend say what is the normal number of accidents which have to happen before there can to a controlled pedestrian crossing?
    Mr. Galbraith: There is not any norm; it depends on each case and each is dealt with differently.

    Swing Bridge, Thorne
    Mr. Jegerasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the delays and congestion at the single-line swing bridge over the canal at Thorne; and what proposals he has for a new bridge suitable for heavy industrial traffic.
    Mr. Galbraith: A new bridge over the canal will be constructed as part of the Thorne by-pass scheme. An order under Section 7 of the Highways Act, 1959, establishing the route of the bypass, was made in October, 1963. There are further statutory processes to be completed and the design work and land acquisition to be undertaken but we hope to authorise construction within a year or two.
    Mr. Jeger: Can the hon. Gentleman say by whom the bridge will be designed—whether it will be decided by open competition or whether his right hon. Friend will choose one of his friends?
    Mr. Galbraith: I am afraid I could not give an answer to that question without notice.

    Tadcaster (By-Pass)
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Transport what are his proposals for the A.64 in connection with the construction of a by-pass road at Tadcaster.
    Mr. Galbraith: A line for the by-pass is shown on the approved development plan.
    There are many more urgently needed improvements awaiting a place in the roads programme and I am afraid it will be some years before this scheme can be included.
    Sir L. Ropner: Could my hon. Friend give a rather closer interpretation of what he means by "some years"?
    Mr. Galbraith: I do not think so. I should like to help my hon. and gallant Friend, but I am afraid I cannot do so. There are a great many more urgently required schemes than this, but it is something which will require to be done eventually.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is great resentment in
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    the area of the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Sir L. Ropner), and in my area, that there is far too much Ministry of Transport concentration on trunk roads and main roads and not enough on the hinterland, particularly on roads leading to the ports from the main roads on which the right hon. Member has concentrated?
    Mr. Galbraith: I quite understand that, but the policy of my right hon. Friend is to deal with industrial roads first. I think he is right, and everyone in this House agrees that he has got his priorities right.

  TRANSPORT

    Dipped Headlights
    Mr. Mappasked the Minister of Transport what reply he has given to the communication of 25th November from the Chief Constable of Oldham dealing with dipped headlights in built-up areas.
    Mr. Marples: The Chief Constable was invited to make comparative tests between his experimental system and another sent to him from the Road Research Laboratory. I am grateful for the information he has recently provided about the results.
    Mr. Mapp: Is the Minister aware that I and, I am sure, the Chief Constable will be pleased at his constructive approach? Is he aware, as I think he is, that we must find the happy compromise between inadequate sidelights and glaring dipped headlights, particularly in towns? It may be that the work done experimentally will find the ultimate solution and I urge the Minister to proceed on those lines.
    Mr. Marples: I am grateful to the hon. Member. I agree with him that we must find the answer, particularly for wet conditions at night, because that is when dazzle arises. What the answer will be, I do not know, but we are studying the results of the dipped headlight campaign and carrying out certain experiments all over the country and ultimately, I hope, we shall find a satisfactory answer. I agree, however, upon the importance of the problem.

    City Centres (Private Motorists)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Transport what proposals he has for banning private motor vehicles from the centres of certain large sities.
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Transport what plans he is making to restrict or ban the use of private motor cars in the centre of London and other large cities.
    Mr. Marples: None. Sir. But I accept the conclusion of the Buchanan and Crowther Reports that sometime in the future some limitation of traffic in the larger cities will be unavoidable.
    Mr. Allaun: While I accept that the decision should be taken locally, may I ask whether the Minister agrees that the time to which he has referred has now arrived in London, Manchester and certain other cities, because at rush hours traffic is being brought practically to a standstill? Would he not agree that to allow only public transport—buses can carry 60 passengers, for example—is the solution in the immediate future?
    Mr. Marples: No, I could not agree, not even in London, because the measures which we have taken in London in the last few years have resulted in an increased flow of traffic at peak hours and an increased volume can be taken by the streets. by such methods as one-way streets. A great deal more can still be done in London and we are to have several major schemes each year for the next two or three years. Therefore, I cannot agree with the assumption made by the hon. Member. Another thing is that we have a positive policy towards parking so that people are stopped from long-term parking on the streets. That in itself will make a significant contribution.
    Mr. Lipton: Does the Minister recall that on 5th December, 1956, I told the then Minister of Transport that
    "…keeping private cars out of central London is the quickest and least complicated solution to the problem."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1956; Vol. 561, c. 1222.]
    When will the Minister grapple effectively with this problem instead of behaving, as he does, like a beetle on a pin—a lot of activity but nothing achieved?
    Mr. Marples: I only wish I had the salary of the Beatles. I must say, however, that traffic is now moving faster than it did in 1956 and there is a greater volume of it. The hon. Member was wrong in 1956 and is wrong again now.

    Dartford Tunnel
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Minister of Transport what estimate has been made of the increase of northbound traffic through Kelvedon Hatch, Essex, since the opening of the Dartford Tunnel; and whether it is proposed to make a count of such traffic in the summer season of 1964.
    Mr. Galbraith: Provisionally at not more than 500 vehicles a day. A comprehensive survey of tunnel traffic in the area, including Kelvedon Hatch, is being undertaken shortly.

    British Road Services (Export Traffic)
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Minister of Transport whether he will direct the Transport Holding Company that British Road Services should introduce a priority system for export orders.
    Mr. Galbraith: No, Sir. British Road Services is fully conscious of the importance of export traffic, and it is for it. in its responsibility for management, to decide how it can best handle it.
    Mr. Goodhart: Does my hon. Friend think it satisfactory regularly to have to move export goods these days from Pembroke to Harwich Dock? The Green Arrow scheme works satisfactorily on the railways. Why should it not work satisfactorily on the roads?
    Mr. Galbraith: I think that my hon. Friend has had a letter explaining the difficulty in that these loads are small, there is no direct line and when there are trans-shipments it is bound to take a little time.

    London Underground System
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Transport if, in considering methods of relieving traffic congestion in London, he will make a special study of the methods of the Paris Metro system, where there are three route miles of railways to every one square

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    mile of the Paris area, with a view to extending the London Underground system, which has only one route mile to every four square miles of the area served.
    Mr. Marples: Responsibility for any new developments on the London Underground system rests with the London Transport Board, which has a direct interest in the relief of traffic congestion.
    Any proposals made by the Board must be related to the particular needs and circumstances of London, which are very different from those of Paris. But London Transport has studied the Paris Metro and other foreign systems for any ideas which might usefully be developed here.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Will my hon. Friend point out to the London Transport Board that the Paris Metro system is 12 times more intensive than the London Underground system and thereby leads to less traffic being on the roads and to less congestion on the buses? Would he also point out that areas like Chelsea and South London are not served to a marked degree by the Underground and that, if the Board wants to relieve congestion, that is the way to do it?
    Mr. Marples: I cannot agree with my hon. Friend and it pains me to say so. Paris is a smaller and more compact city. A larger part of the population lives in the central area and the Metro provides an intensive service for that area. It does not have to serve the outer suburbs and there is no highly-developed network of bus services comparable with that in London for short journeys. The circumstances are very different.
    Mr. Mellish: Surely the extension of Underground facilities in London are a matter not just for the London Transport Board, but for the Minister? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any intention on his part, or on the part of his Department, to extend our present inadequate Underground services?
    Mr. Marples: London Transport is considering certain lines in London, one of them being an extension of the Victoria Line to Brixton, and another a possible link between Aldwych and
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    Waterloo, but it is awaiting the results of the London traffic survey before putting forward any firm proposals.

    Private Cars (Registrations)
    Mr, Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Transport what was the total number of private cars registered in the names of private individuals and of firms and companies, respectively, in 1963.
    Mr. Galbraith: The latest year for which estimates can be given is 1961. The motoring survey undertaken in that year showed that the numbers were 5 million and 1 million cars respectively.
    Mr. Digby: Is not there something to be said for distinguishing between these two types of users? Should not it be taken into account when Buchanan is thought about and discussed, and is not there even a case for the Minister discussing it with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to seeing whether it is right that both should be subject to the same type of taxation?
    Mr. Galbraith: There may or may not be something to be said for my hon. Friend's point of view, but my right hon. Friend's Department is making studies which could shed light on the amount of use made of the roads by various types of vehicles and the purpose for which they are used. I think that when we know that we shall be better able to answer my hon. Friend's Question.

    Winter Weather
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Transport what steps he took between January and December, 1963, by issuing general directions to, and by consulting with, the Railways Board and other appropriate bodies, to minimise delay, hardship, and danger to users of rail and road transport in winter weather.
    Mr. Marples: I consulted the British Railways Board, the London Transport Board, licensing authorities, local authority associations, and other interests, about the problems of road and rail transport in winter and the measures necessary to meet them. I also issued detailed guidance to local authorities about keeping roads clear of snow and ice.
    Mr. Driberg: Is the Minister aware how very, very lucky not only all of us

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    have been but he in particular has been, that there has not been a repetition of last year's weather, or he might have been sacrificed, justly or unjustly, as a scapegoat? Is the right hon. Gentleman now satisfied that, to take one instance only, the points at Shenfield will no longer freeze up if there is a severe cold snap, as points never now need do?
    Mr. Marples: During the recent very short spell of severe weather the main trouble was, of course, the points freezing, but where automatic heaters were installed they were most effective and there is an annual programme for the installation of further heaters.

    Fog (Headlights)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Transport whether he will make the use of undipped headlights in daytime in fog compulsory.
    Mr. Galbraith: Under the present law we cannot compel motor vehicles to use their headlights when there is fog in daytime. This, however, is what the Highway Code advises.
    Mr. Digby: May I ask my hon. Friend whether it is not the fact that during the recent fog, in the middle of the day an appeal was made to do what I am suggesting, and that if it had been made at the outset it might have prevented accidents? Is not there something to be said for making it part of the law of the land, as I believe it is in France?
    Mr. Galbraith: My right hon. Friend would hope at the earliest convenient opportunity when there is future legislation to embody some such provision as this.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Would my hon. Friend also consider making it compulsory at night, because half the motorists in London seem to be mad enough to drive on their sidelights in circumstances of intense fog?
    Mr. Galbraith: Certainly we shall consider that.

    Parking Law
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Transport how the discussions on parking law simplification are proceeding; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Marples: It is not possible under the Road Traffic Acts as they now stand to give greater precision to the law on obstruction, but I am considering the need for future legislation. I am also consulting representative bodies about a new system of traffic signs to be introduced this year which will, I hope, help to convey more clearly to drivers the restrictions on waiting on particular lengths of road.
    The Road Research Laboratory is investigating the effects of unlighted parking on the accident rate.
    Mr. Bossom: I thank my right hon. Friend for that helpful Answer, but may I ask whether he will include, in the present discussions that he is having, measures to improve parking signs, rules for parking without lights, for loading and unloading and also a ruling on the tag-end use of parking meters? I am sure that he will agree that these matters are causing unnecessary friction between motorists, the police and traffic wardens.
    Mr. Marples: I agree, and with the implementation of the Warboys Report on signs I a ink we shall see a welcome improvement. I agree with my hon. Friend that it. is necessary that we should have standard signs through the country, so that when a motorist is in any town he will know quite clearly what is expected of him.
    Mr. Snow: On the question of the lighting of parked vehicles, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is some difficulty in the Midlands? In the overspill area of Birmingham there is one set of regulations, and in Staffordshire there is a different set, which has resulted in some conflict.
    Mr. Marples: This is a difficulty that we find throughout the country, because each chief constable has his own idea of what system should be adopted in his area, and motorists are sometimes confused when moving from one area to another. This is one of the things that I am looking into with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

    Off-street Car Parking
    Mr. W. T. Rodgersasked the Minister of Transport what further studies are being undertaken into the traffic induced by the extensive construction of off-street car parks in town

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    centres and its relation to the capacity of existing roads and anticipated improvements, in the light of the problems discussed in the Buchanan Report.
    Mr. Marples: The Joint Urban Planning Group is examining the rôle of off-street car parks in relation to urban traffic. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and I hope to issue shortly a planning bulletin to local authorities on parking in town centres.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does the Minister agree that this is absolutely crucial in any regulation of traffic in planned cities, to the extent that a complete reversal of policy may be required, especially in the inclusion of parking space in new buildings? Will he push forward this research as quickly as possible so that a formula can be decided upon which can be adhered to?
    Mr. Marples: We will do this as quickly as possible, but the aim is to get an overall parking policy which comprises the restriction of on-street parking together with the provision of off-street parking, in such a way that the best use of the streets is obtained for moving traffic. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall press on with that as fast as we can.

    Buchanan Report
    Mr. W. T. Rodgersasked the Minister of Transport what estimates are now available of the likely costs of implementing fully the recommendations of the Buchanan Report over the period of the next 25 years.
    Mr. Marples: Extensive urban renewal and road improvements are going to be necessary in the years ahead. It is not possible to estimate the extra cost of carrying this out in accordance with the planning concepts advocated in the Buchanan Report.
    Mr. Rodgers: I appreciate the impossibility of giving a comprehensive figure over an extensive period but may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to confirm what the Minister of Housing and Local Government said on Monday evening, namely, that no major reconstruction will take place on the lines of the Buchanan Report within the next four years? Further, does the right hon.
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    Gentleman recall that no provision was made in last December's White Paper for any major reconstruction on the lines of the Buchanan Report?
    Mr. Marples: It is a fact of life that no action can be taken to implement Buchanan until we have had the results of the comprehensive land use transport surveys which are now in hand. They will form the basis of any decision, and until we have that information we cannot make any decisions.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does that answer imply that those towns which are already going ahead with extensive centre renewals will be asked to call a halt to their operations? If that is not the case, why cannot extra finance be made available to them if they want to carry out new and ambitious plans on the lines of Buchanan?
    Mr. Marples: It is no good talking about new and ambitious plans unless they are based upon the results of a comprehensive land use transport survey. We cannot do anything until we have had the results of these surveys.

    Tinsley Methodist Church, Sheffield
    Mr. J. Hyndasked the Minister of Transport when a reply was sent by him to the letter, dated 7th August, 1963, from the representatives of the trustees of Tinsley Methodist Church in Sheffield relating to the compulsory acquision of the church.
    Mr. Galbraith: An interim reply was sent on 12th September, 1963. The district valuer was already trying to help the trustees to find an alternative site and he has, at our request, continued his efforts and been keeping in touch with their agents, as my right hon. Friend explained to the hon. Member in his letter of 3rd January.
    Mr. Hynd: Is not this deplorable? The Minister has admitted that the firm wrote to him on 7th August, 1963, and an interim reply acknowledging this, and stating that the Minister would give a full reply as soon as possible, was sent over a month later, since when nothing has been heard from the Minister in reply to that letter. Surely the Minister should at least send an apology to the firm and provide it with the reply which

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    he promised on 12th September, 1963? So far as I know, the firm has received no reply from the Minister.
    Mr. Galbraith: To a certain extent I can understand the hon. Gentleman's anger. In fact, no letter was sent, because the district valuer was in personal touch with the trustees throughout all this time. My right hon. Friend did not want to send a negative reply, which he would have had to send, while there was still hope that an alternative site might be found. If it will help the hon. Gentleman, I am quite prepared to send a letter to the trustees along the lines of the letter which my right hon. Friend sent to him.
    Mr. J. Hyndasked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to satisfy the Trustees of Tinsley Methodist Church that an alternative site will be available before the church is demolished, following its compulsory acquisition by him in connection with the Aston-Sheffield-Leeds motorway project.
    Mr. Galbraith: I understand that the trustees of the Methodist Church have now been able to make arrangements for the temporary use of other premises but as far as permanent accommodation is concerned, I cannot add to my right hon. Friend's letter of the 3rd January.
    Mr. Hynd: I understand the Minister claims that he has no statutory responsibility in such cases, but is not there a very strong moral responsibility on the Government? They have the power to destroy a church in the interests of road development and they seek to discharge their responsibility by offering money to rebuild the church when there is no site. Is not there a moral responsibility on the Ministry to do something more positive to assist this church to get a site for a new building?
    Mr. Galbraith: It was because we recognised what the hon. Gentleman refers to as a moral responsibility that we asked the district valuer to help. My right hon. Friend has no power to acquire land specifically for those people who are displaced. All we can do is use our good offices; we cannot do more.
    Mr. Hynd: In view of the completely unsatisfactory nature of the replies to
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    this Question and the previous Question, I wish to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Heavy Goods Vehicles (Drivers)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Transport when he intends to bring into operation Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, requiring the drivers of heavy goods vehicles to be specially licensed.
    Mr. Galbraith: We will keep an open mind on this until our inquiries into the M.1 accidents on 21st January are complete. But we do not think present evidence on accidents in general would justify the re-introduction of special licences for drivers of heavy goods vehicles.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Does my hon. Friend recall that before the war there was a licence for drivers of heavy goods vehicles of over 3 tons? Is he aware that lads of 21 are driving vehicles of up to 20 and 25 tons and it is alleged that there are some drivers who drive as much as 400 miles in 10 hours, at 40 miles an hour, in these heavy vehicles and that it is not good enough?
    Mr. Galbraith: As my hon. Friend said, this is alleged. I do not think that there is any proof. It would be better to wait until we have the result of the inquiries into the accidents which occurred on the M.1. May I point out that drivers of heavy goods vehicles have a record of fewer accidents per mile travelled than any other class of driver?
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that some of these vehicles are 60 or 70 ft. long and that such vehicles are being constricted in increasing weights? Is he aware that the driving of these vehicles calls for a different method of handling than is the case with other vehicles? Will the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to these problems so that we do not have trouble in the future?

    Canals
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the British Waterways Board to dispose of unwanted stretches of canal on

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    favourable terms to local authorities and other interested bodies, in order to preserve them for the purposes of boating and walking.
    Mr. Marples: I do not think such a direction is either necessary or appropriate. The British Waterways Board is at present reviewing all its waterways and its interim report makes it quite clear that it will welcome the advice and co-operation of all interested bodies.
    Mr. Harold Davies: Will the Minister encourage the British Waterways Board, particularly in respect of areas about which he is approached, such as the extension of the Trent and Mersey Canal at the Caldon branch, where the local youth group is trying to develop this in the Churnet Valley near Leek, which is one of the most beautiful bits of Britain? Would he see that this stretch of canal is saved for the youth of this area, which is on the edge of the Peak District? Is he aware that some months ago we had a hopeful answer from the Minister during an Adjournment debate about this canal?
    Mr. Marples: I agree that where appropriate canals should be used for amenity purposes. The British Waterways Board in a recently published Report—I thought it an extremely good Report—stated in paragraph 172 that a decision on the future of the Caldon branch would depend on the result of further studies and consultations. The Board is quite prepared to have the necessary consultation with any amenity interests in that area.
    Mr. Talbot: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. May I ask him to consider that all through the industrial Midlands there are lengths of canal which are not of prime interest for transport purposes but have a great amenity interest, and that this includes a couple of most interesting tunnels? May I ask whether my right hon. Friend would go a little further, and in appropriate cases allow the British Waterways Board, without consideration, to dispose of these canals freely to local authorities, because there is great competition among manufacturers to secure the sites and close the canals, which is not in the public interest? May I ask my right
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    hon. Friend to devote particular care to the position in the industrial districts?
    Mr. Marples: I agree that canals are useful for amenity as well as for commercial transport. The British Waterways Board is seized of this point and has said that it would like consultations with any amenity group interested in particular canals. All this depends on the result of further studies and consultations but the Board has shown in its Report how keen it is on this aspect.

    Motorists (Insurance)
    Sir B. Jannerasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that motorists whose vehicles are the property of a partnership or a company seldom know that drivers of such vehicles are not covered for personal injury even under a comprehensive policy and whether he will introduce legislation to make compulsory insurance for injury to drivers of such vehicles.
    Mr. Marples: I am not aware of any general lack of knowledge on this point. I do not propose to add to the existing provisions of the Road Traffic Act on compulsory insurance.
    Sir B. Janner: Will the Minister make further inquiries? Is he aware that not one of the motorists to whom I have spoken knew that this provision obtained, that there was no possibility of getting a claim at all by a person who happened to be travelling in a car belonging to a partnership or driving a car belonging to a partnership or corporation? Will the Minister do something to see that this provision is generally known to the public, so that people may be protected against the consequences of a provision of which they know nothing at the present?
    Mr. Marples: If the driver of such a vehicle is injured by another's negligence, he is covered by the provisions of the compulsory third party insurance under the Road Traffic Act, 1960. If there is no negligence by the other driver, any accident arising out of or in the course of employment attracts benefit under the Industrial Injuries Act for which insurance is compulsory for all employed persons.

  SHIPPING

    Restrictive Practices
    Mr. McMasterasked the Minister of Transport what recent progress has been made in negotiations with other maritime nations in an effort to curb restrictive shipping practices such as flag reservation, flag discrimination and the use of flags of convenience; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Marples: I had a most useful meeting last December with Ministers responsible for shipping in nine other European countries at which we all agreed to work closely together in countering flag discrimination.
    We have not so far considered flags of convenience at these international meetings as there are more pressing problems confronting European shipping.
    Mr. McMaster: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he can say what success has been achieved in negotiations between Europe and the United States in this case? Before any protest is made about sending buses to Cuba, will my right hon. Friend ask the United States to stop damaging our mercantile marine interests in this way?
    Mr. Marples: This meeting in London was really called so that all the maritime nations of Europe could present a united front against United States flag discrimination, and we were successful in getting unanimity amongst 10 European nations, I think for the first time in history. In addition, Japan accepted an invitation to join the 10 and make her protest to America, so we now have 11 countries, including Japan, with well over half the world's shipping, united against the activities of the Federal Maritime Commission of the United States. I am glad to say that the chairman of the Federal Maritime Commission is coming to Europe—in fact I think he is in Paris now.
    Mr. Mellish: I wish this discussion a happy conclusion, but may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that his Harbours Bill is going to introduce, by unilateral action, the necessity for foreign ships to have equipment of British standards, which could lead to trouble in foreign ports if we insisted on doing something on our own? Will the right
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    hon. Gentleman practise what he preaches and try to get general agreement instead of taking unilateral action?
    Mr. Marples: I shall look at that during the Report stage of the Bill.
    Mr. Webster: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that the chairman of the Federal Maritime Commission has restricted authority, and is not this a matter to be dealt with by Congress rather than by the Commission?
    Mr. Marples: It is true that the Commission is a creature of Congress, and that ultimately this will be a matter for Congress. The point is that we stand much more chance of success if the whole of Europe and Japan are united in a common policy.

    Taw and Torridge Estuary (Lights)
    Mr. P. Browneasked the Minister of Transport what consultation took place between his Department and the Elder Brethren of Trinity House before the latter took the decision to move the lights at the entrance to the Taw and Torridge estuary.
    Mr. Marples: The Elder Brethren submitted their proposal to my Department for consideration and approval in the normal way. After obtaining the agreement of the Lighthouse Advisory Committee of the Chamber of Shipping my Department approved the scheme.
    Mr. Browne: That was a pity. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the local master mariners and fishermen who use this estuary are extremely dissatisfied with the proposed new positions of the lighthouses? Is he aware that this will make navigation over a very difficult bar much more dangerous than it already is? Is he quite satisfied that his Department knew what it was talking about when it approved this decision?
    Mr. Marples: All I can say is that I am advised that the present temporary lights give a definite lead in at this estuary, and that ship owners and local pilots are satisfied with them. The permanent lights which will replace them shortly will be of much greater power than the lights at the former sites.
    Mr. Browne: That is not true.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Question time is impossible if it consists of counter-assertions.
    Mr. Thorpe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. Browne) is talking very good sense in this matter, and that the feeling of opposition expressed by the fishermen in his constituency is shared by those in my constituency who also use this bar? Will he consider this matter again?
    Mr. Marples: I will certainly consider it again, but the lights and signals are provided by Trinity House for the benefit of general navigation and not for the benefit of local interests. Fishermen do not pay light dues.
    Mr. Browne: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    British Ships (Repairs Abroad)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Transport what is the tonnage of British oil tankers and dry cargo vessels now being repaired in foreign shipyards.
    Mr. Marples: No official records are kept of the extent to which British ships are repaired abroad.
    Mr. Awbery: Is it beyond the capacity of the Minister to find out what British tonnage is being repaired abroad and what number of men are displaced in this country because ships are repaired abroad and the amount of money paid in unemployment benefit to those men? Will he examine the position again?
    Mr. Marples: I do not think it would be right to restrict British ship owners to British repair yards, because foreign Governments might then restrict repair of their ships to their yards. In 1962 over £8 million was spent by foreign ship owners on repairs done here and this was 13½ per cent. of the total value of work done by ship repairers in this country. It would not be in their interests to follow this suggestion.
    Mr. Awbery: Would it not find employment in a large number of British ship-repair yards for men who are now unemployed?
    Mr. Marples: The point is that if we did this and put restrictions on other countries, they might retaliate and we might lose.
    Mr. McMaster: In view of the value to British shipbuilding yards of repair work, will my right hon. Friend consider extending credit terms, in the same way as for shipbuilding, for the repair of British ships in British yards?
    Mr. Marples: No, Sir.
    Sir L. Ropner: Will my right hon. Friend remember that there is great preference on the part of British ship owners to get their ships repaired in this country, but obviously if a ship breaks down at the other end of the world it cannot he brought home for repair?
    Mr. Marples: I quite agree. There was a recent case of a tanker owned by B.P. which broke down in the Indian Ocean and it could not possibly be brought back to this country for repair.

  RAILWAYS

    Proposed Closures, The Highlands
    Mr. N. McLeanasked the Minister of Transport (1) what information he has received, under Section 56(8) of the Transport Act, 1962, regarding objections lodged with the appropriate area Transport Users' Consultative Committee to the proposed closures of the Aviemore-Grantown-Elgin and Fort William-Mallaig lines;
    (2) what information he has received, under Section 56(8) of the Transport Act, 1962, regarding objections lodged with the appropriate area Transport Users' Consultative Committee to the proposed closures of the Inverness-Wick and Inverness-Kyle of Lochalsh lines.
    Sir J. MacLeodasked the Minister of Transport what information he has received, under Section 56(8) of the Transport Act, 1962, regarding objections lodged with the appropriate Area Transport Users' Consultative Committee to proposed railway closures in the Highlands.
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet received information from the Transport Users' Consultative Committee under the provisions of Section 56(8) of the Transport

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    Act, 1962, concerning objections to the closing, of the Inverness-Wick and Inverness-Kyle of Lochalsh passenger services.
    Mr. Marples: The Scottish Transport Users' Consultative Committee has told me that objection has been lodged to each of the proposals for closure of passenger services in the Highlands of which the Railways Board has given notice, including those of services on the Inverness-Wick, Inverness-Kyle of Lochalsh, and Aviemore-Grantown-Elgin lines, and of certain stations on the Fort William-Mallaig line.
    Mr. McLean: Is my right hon. Friend aware that considerable anxiety is felt in the North lest an insufficient number of days is allotted to the hearings of the Transport Users' Consultative Committee, which, I understand, is the statutory body which will hear these objections? Will my right hon. Friend bear this fact in mind when the Committee submits its opinion to him, or to the Secretary of State for Scotland, whichever the case may be?
    Mr. Marples: The Scottish Transport Users' Consultative Committee is a statutory body and an independent one, but I will call its attention to the supplementary question which my hon. Friend has raised.
    Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the chairman of the Committee has announced that he will see only one or two of the objectors? Will he take steps to ensure that the Committee sees all the objectors? They are very angry about this in the North.
    Mr. Marples: The procedure of the Transport Users' Consultative Committee is settled by the body itself. It is independent of me, and it must do what it thinks best in the matter of hearing objections.
    Mr. McInnes: Since the right hon. Gentleman was largely responsible for the appointment of the individual concerned, will he now take steps to remove him from office?
    Mr. Marples: I do not think that I shall do that.

    Transport Users' Consultative Committees (Reports)
    Mr. Snowasked the Minister of Transport in what form, printed or otherwise, he receives reports from transport users' consultative committees on hardship.
    Mr. Marples: The reports are in typescript.
    Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that members of the public, including passengers on the railways, know how to submit evidence of hardship to the T.U.C.C.s for onward transmission to him? Can he delicately point out to the committees and to British Railways that it is not very tactful, when intimating that the closure of a station is intended, to send this in an envelope franked, "Be sure to go by train"?
    Mr. Marples: I do not suppose they franked the envelopes. I do not know of anyone wishing to give evidence before a T.U.C.C. who was, as it were, backward in coming forward to give evidence or was incapable of giving such evidence. People have always been eloquent and comprehensive in giving evidence before a T.U.C.C. and this evidence is taken into full account.
    Sir J. Duncan: Will my right hon. Friend publish those reports when he receives them, so that they will be available to any objectors?
    Mr. Marples: No. The T.U.C.C.s have their own procedure and prefer that their reports should remain confidential, but some committees indicate in broad terms in statements to the Press the extent to which they have found hardship.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Can anything be done to speed up the hearings, as delay is causing great hardship and inconvenience and the property is depreciating in value? Can my right hon. Friend also do something to reduce the expense caused to local authorities, which amounts to considerable sums?
    Mr. Marples: As the committees are independent statutory bodies not subject to interference by the Minister, it is

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    extremely difficult to do anything about that, but I shall call the attention of the committees to the remarks made by my hon. Friend.
    Sir J. Duncan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I put a supplementary question and the Minister did not answer it.
    Mr. Speaker: No. Sometimes they do not. Mr. Mellish.
    Mr. Mellish: May I ask a question following the point made by the Minister about these reports not being made public? Why should we not be allowed to know why a line is closed and why a committee came to its conclusions?
    Mr. Marples: The whole idea of the T.U.C.C. consideration is that users of transport can express their difficulties fully, frankly and informally. The T.U.C.C.s have decided for themselves that they would prefer this sort of procedure.

    Railway Closures (Bus Services)
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Transport if he will give an undertaking that where bus services have been provided to replace a closed railway service those bus services will not be subsequently withdrawn.
    Mr. Marples: Bus services provided to replace a railway service will be continued for so long as I consider they are needed.
    Mr. Ridley: Can my right hon. Friend go a little further than that? Is he aware that it is not only a question of so long as he considers that these services are needed, but in so far as people who use them consider that they are needed? If he is prepared not to allow a closure unless alternative services are offered, can he not equally maintain that those services shall be continued until alternative services are provided?
    Mr. Marples: It depends on how much the services are used. Some of the services are put on and used a great deal at the beginning and then their use tails off and hardly anyone travels by them. It would have to depend on the merits. There is an example in the constituency of my hon. Friend. Special
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    services of buses were arranged on every Saturday during the summer last year. It was arranged that 252 services should run, but each bus carried an average of only 1·6 passengers. In those circumstances, I do not think it right or reasonable that a subsidy should be paid for the service to continue.
    Mr. Blackburn: How can the Minister control this? If British Railways are allowed to close uneconomic services, how can the Minister say that bus services are not allowed to do the same?
    Mr. Marples: If a railway service closes and a condition is attached by me to the consent saying that a bus service has to be run and it gives an indication of timing and frequency, that cannot be taken off by the Railways Board without my consent. I can also require by direction that the Railways Board should pay a subsidy in necessary cases.

    Leek—Stoke-on-Trent Line (Closure)
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Transport what is his estimate of the savings following the closure of the Leek to Stoke-on-Trent railway line; and what are his estimates of the social and economic costs of providing adequate alternative services, especially in view of the growth and development of population in the Baddeley Green, Stockton Brook and Endon areas, which the line previously served.
    Mr. Galbraith: We have made no estimates relating to this closure, which took place in 1956.
    Mr. Harold Davies: This is it. Is the Minister aware that no real estimates have been made to substantiate even the Beeching Report which in this instance was based on the experience of simply a couple of days in the whole year? Is the Minister to try to get the social costs of this matter in keeping with paragraph 55 of the Beeching Report, which says that the social costs should be taken into consideration? In view of the Buchanan Report and the possibility of North Staffordshire having regional planning, will the Minister say that this line shall be kept open in future because of the growing population of the area?
    Mr. Galbraith: The hon. Member is quite right. This is it, but it is "it" in a sense he does not realise because this line was closed under the Act of 1947 which was brought into effect by the Government which he supported, whereas our 1962 Act would have seen that the Minister knew all about this matter.
    Mr. Harold Davies: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even when his party is on the eve of a General Election social responsibility such as this is not the subject for a cheap crack, but it is a vital issue for the people concerned and not merely for a political party?

OVERSEAS SERVICE (YOUNG VOLUNTEERS)
The Secretary for Technical Cooperation (Mr. Robert Carr): With permission, I wish to make a statement about the expansion of overseas service by young volunteers.
In the urgent attack on world poverty one of our greatest contributions is men and women prepared to work for the developing countries. Altogether, about 19,000 British men and women, provided with the help of the Government, are serving in this cause, mainly in the Commonwealth. Of these, at present about 550 are young volunteers—newly qualified graduates, school leavers and industrial apprentices.
Under plans already announced, the number will increase to 800 in September of this year. The Government want to see the scale of this effort further substantially expanded.
As an immediate step, two decisions have been taken: first, for the 1965 programme the Government will contribute 75 per cent. of the British costs compared with 50 per cent. at the moment; and, secondly, the 1965 programme will be increased to 1,300 volunteers of whom 1,000 will be graduates.
This means that the Government's contribution to the 1965 programme will be about £650,000, compared with £270,000 for the 1964 programme.
The outstanding success of the service given by volunteers from Britain has been due to their high quality and to the worthwhile nature of the projects to which
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they have been assigned. The rate of increase will depend more than anything else on our determination to maintain these high standards. Judged on present trends of requests from overseas the increase is likely to be mainly, but not exclusively, among graduate volunteers.
The Government are in no doubt that volunteers should continue to serve under the auspices of the independent voluntary societies active in this field. The societies as hitherto will work in close co-operation with my Department, and will coordinate their activities through the Joint Committee under the chairmanship of Sir John Lockwood.
This system has worked with great success so far. Its independence and non-governmental character are most welcome both to the receiving countries overseas and to the intending volunteers in Britain.
The voluntary societies have welcomed our target for 1965. Both they and the Government are satisfied that they will be able to expand their programme still further in later years as the demand for volunteers increases.
If this movement is to gather force as we desire, it is necessary to arouse a high degree of public interest and support. To this end the voluntary societies have agreed to the setting up of a new body to be called the Council for Volunteers Overseas. It will receive reports from the voluntary societies and the Lockwood Committee and will advise both them and my Department on questions of policy affecting the programme. It will in no sense duplicate the coordinating work of the Lockwood Committee itself.
The membership will include Sir John Lockwood, the chairmen of the participating voluntary societies, distinguished representatives from the educational and industrial worlds, and also some past volunteers. The Council will be set up for three years in the first instance.
I am very glad to inform the House that His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh has consented to be President of the Council for this period.
Mr. Bottomley: Is it not pathetic that in the dying days of the Government they should find a new interest in overseas and Commonwealth affairs? Last week the

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Prime Minister talked about a Commonwealth Court. Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House have been urging upon the Government for a long time the need to strengthen this overseas volunteer service?
Can the Minister tell us what more this new Council will do that the Lockwood Committee could not do? The Lockwood Committee was to secure the coordination of voluntary services and to bring about increased recruitment. Who will be the chairman of the new Council? We on this side of the House welcome the decision of the Duke of Edinburgh to be the President, but we should much prefer to see him President of a bold and imaginative service and not one such as the Government have brought forward.
Mr. Carr: I am surprised, as I am sure many people of all parties outside the House will be, by the intemperate and wholly unjustified partisan approach of the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley). I regret it. If the right hon. Gentleman asks who is electioneering, he should read his own words in HANSARD.
I believe that it is the wish of a great majority of hon. Members on all sides of the House, and of very many people of all parties outside, that this movement shall be developed as rapidly as possible in a totally non-partisan spirit. That is our desire. It has been expanding rapidly in recent years. There were 175 volunteers in 1961, 380 in 1962, and 550 this year; and there will be 800 going out later this year, and 1,300 next year.
This is a rapid rate of expansion which must be looked at in the context of the 19,000 British men and women serving overseas, an effort unparalleled by any other country.
Mr. Bottomley: Why was the announcement made now and not much earlier, when urged upon the Government by hon. Members on this side of the House?
Mr. Carr: Quite simply because last July I announced the total of 800 who will be going this September. It is necessary to plan ahead for these things, and the voluntary societies felt that if we were to get a bigger number, as we shall get next year, then it was urgent to make
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our announcement about the 1965 programme not later than February of this year. That is the one and only reason. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to talk to some of his hon. Friends—to people of his own party inside and outside the House concerned with this movement—to get this matter in perspective.
Mr. Turton: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on his announcement on a matter quite outside and far above party politics, may I ask whether he has considered giving a higher rate of grant in respect of the travel of these volunteers, bearing in mind that it is the cost of travel which is deterring some of the expeditions which could have been of tremendous value? If a higher grant were given on the actual travel, particularly if it were on British or Commonwealth airlines or British or Commonwealth shipping, it would assist our air and sea services at the same time.
Mr. Carr: We already make arrangements, where possible, for special fare facilities from shipping lines. In addition, the R.A.F., Transport Command, and various other services available to the Government can help occasionally, but the larger the scale of the effort becomes the more difficult this becomes. The cost of travel can be a substantial element in the total cost, to which the Government will be making a 75 per cent. contribution.
Mr. Grimond: I welcome the announcement of increased Government aid. Does the Minister agree that all engaged in industry have been extremely helpful in this matter? Has he had any consultation with industry about keeping jobs open for these volunteers, particularly for graduates, when they return? This is quite a consideration for some of them. Is he aware that there is a feeling that there is a danger of too much administrative top hamper in all this? Is he certain that the Lockwood Committee could not do the work of the new Council? All the voluntary societies have councils and executives of their own. Does he realise that it is extremely important to keep down the administration and to make the scheme as flexible as possible?
Mr. Carr: I fully agree with the right hon. Gentleman's comment on the need

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to keep down the administrative top hamper. If one studies what is being done one finds that most people who have gone into it—I say this with full respect to the right hon. Gentleman—feel that, if anything, hitherto the scheme has had too little administration rather than too much. The purpose of the new Council is primarily to focus and enlarge public interest in this matter. I do not expect that it will have many meetings—it is an advisory committee on policy.
I will bear in mind the third point which the right hon. Gentleman made. Many employers are already very helpful about this. The problem is less acute for the young volunteer going out before he starts his career than it is for someone who goes abroad for two years in the middle of his career.
Mr. Longbottom: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the enormous pleasure which his statement will give to all the voluntary organisations concerned in this work, particularly as he is ensuring that they will continue actively to participate in this scheme? However, will he consider helping to provide project advisers and technical experts so as to ensure that we continue to maintain the very high standard of projects which are undertaken by these volunteers?
Mr. Carr: I certainly regard it as one of the main responsibilities of my Department, through its Social Development Division and through representatives who look after this work in our embassies and high commissions overseas, to be constantly unearthing more and more projects of the right kind.
Mr. J. Hynd: To what extent will ex-colonial civil servants of district and regional commissioner level be co-operating in this scheme? They have a vast fund of experience in this type of work and could be of enormous assistance in an advisory capacity. There are many who are now enjoying annuities in this country who might be prepared to go abroad and lead some of these projects? Finally, will some of these schemes he working in Latin America? If not, why not?
Mr. Carr: Yes, these schemes will be working in Latin America. Indeed, there are some there already.
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As to the first point, it must be realised that no British person goes with any Government assistance to serve in an overseas country unless asked for by the Government of that country. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for us to choose who is to lead these teams. The one point which we must keep in mind about this effort is that it knits in—and we shall ensure that it continues to do so—very closely with the aid from what I may call professional effort, the rest of the 19,000 British men and women. In other words, these people will often be working in conjunction with those older and more experienced people overseas.
Sir K. Thompson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the whole House will applaud his statement and join him in deploring the squalid electioneering of the party opposite? Is it really necessary that there should be this division between graduates and non-graduates in this scheme? Is there to be a ceiling upon those who are non-graduates who may want to take part in this work, or will there be room for all who may come forward?
Mr. Carr: There will certainly be room for non-graduates. The fact is that the demand for graduates is at the moment rising faster than the demand for non-graduates. We must primarily meet the demand from the overseas countries. We believe that in future years, as I hope that I made clear in my statement, there will be room for increases not only among graduates and other more highly qualified people, but also among school-leavers and industrial apprentices of various types.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley): who is to be chairman of the new Council?
Mr. Carr: I hope and believe that it is His Royal Highness's intention to play an active part in this Council. When it meets I presume that he will preside over its meetings.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We shall have to have a Question before the House if we are to debate this.

CIGARETTES (HEALTH HAZARDS)
3.45 p.m.
Mr. Laurence Pavitt: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make it illegal to sell packets of cigarettes which are not clearly marked with a warning of the health hazards which arise from smoking.
My proposed Bill is very small and would be only a small contribution towards the solution of a very large problem. I submit to the House that it is desirable at this stage of the big debate which has been going on in the country ever since the first report on cigarette smoking as a factor in illness, and since the Medical Research Council's statement received Government support in June, 1957, that adequate steps should be taken to make people who are smoking aware of the hazards which arise from that action. There should be at least a warning on each packet of cigarettes about the known hazards which have now been scientifically and technically agreed upon in all parts of the world by a large number of research bodies.
I want to make it quite clear that the health hazards are known quantities. There is always debate about other things which also form health hazards, but the hazards arising from cigarette smoking are known. There is no need for further argument or research on this point between scientists and doctors. What is difficult is to convey this knowledge to the general public and to those who are smoking large quantities of cigarettes, which, in spite of the number of reports of a scientific nature which have been published, each year still seem to sell in larger quantities than were sold the year before. We are especially concerned with young people who are acquiring the habit, rather than with those with whom the habit is perhaps settled and for whom perhaps the warning serves no great useful purpose.
I am trying to emphasise the need to warn about health rather than to warn about death. The purpose of the Bill is to enlarge the area of education and knowledge rather than to enlarge the area of threat and fear. I believe that in this subject we have got past the stage where the threat that if a person
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smokes he will die carries much weight. We know that from lung cancer there is a death every 20 minutes, that today there will be 72 deaths, and that by the end of the week there will have been 500 deaths.
This means nothing to most smokers. One can say as often as one likes that there are 26,000 deaths a year from lung cancer, but it means no more to a teenager than does the risk that he will be killed if he "does a ton" on his motorbike. What I am trying to ensure, in short, is that each packet of cigarettes carries adequate warning of the hazards to health in a form approved by the Minister of Health.
Just as important as lung cancer are the two other major matters which affect health in this country. The first is the living death which can arise from chronic bronchitis. The second is the increasing number of people dying from coronary thrombosis. I am concerned that more people shall be aware about them. Last week I had the opportunity of going into a hospital ward where men were dying of lung cancer. The thing that rather arrested my attention was the man who was gasping for breath; he was suffering from chronic bronchitis and had been so gasping for six years.
Others will know of people whose lungs are more or less gone, but who live on year after year and who struggle for every breath they have to breathe and are invalids, to be nursed by others. These diseases are taking an increasing toll. The risk of a person who smokes contracting coronary thrombosis is 70 per cent. higher than the risk of a person who does not smoke contracting it.
Richard Doll, who is one of the most eminent experts in this field and who was partly responsible for the very first reports which started all this discussion, estimates that at least 15,000 deaths from chronic bronchitis and at least 10,000 deaths of people under the age of 55 from heart diseases can be attributed directly to the causal effects of smoking.
On each packet of cigarettes I would like to see a warning, approved by the Minister of Health, explaining just what the situation is, and certainly stating the tar and nicotine content. The question arises whether it would impose too great a burden on the industry to put a warning notice on every packet. The profits

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of British American Tobacco last year rose by £4·3 million to a new record of £74 million. The profits of Imperial Tobacco Company rose from £28 million in 1960 to £31·7 million in 1963. In the light of the expenditure of nearly £10 million on advertising cigarettes, and since, in any case, the cigarette packet has to be printed, I submit that it would be no great burden on the industry to be required to put an adequate notice on each packet.
I submit also that this would be similar to the warning that, the Minister of Transport puts on the M1 when there are ice and fog about. Of necessity, the Bill would include penalties for manufacturers who fail to comply with the law, but I do not think that this is very important. I think that most manufacturers would willingly accept this obligation. In fact, I hope that one company will take this step without waiting for the Bill to get any further in the House. There would, of course, be no penalties—unlike for the hazards of death from road accidents—for failing to comply with the warning. It would merely mean that smokers were warned, and that if one did not comply it was one's own responsibility.
What the Bill would not do is to prohibit smoking in any way or interfere with free choice to smoke or not to smoke in any age group; and people generally would continue to smoke if they so decided. It would not curtail advertising it would not affect smoking in public places and it does not suggest any intervention by the Chancellor of
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the Exchequer. As I said, it is a small Bill.
I apologise for speaking about cigarettes on Ash Wednesday, but since this is a serious season, I hope that hon. Members nay be persuaded to take this matter extremely seriously. I hope that the House will not decide this issue on prejudices. One of the things that has bedevilled this issue is that people have taken attitudes of moral good or bad. The Bill would seek the introduction of a statement of fact. It would in some measure show that the Government propose to implement their own policy. This would be made apparent to every person every time he felt the need to light a cigarette.
Much more needs to be done than this small Bill, but I hope that it will go out to the country that at least in this House we take this, problem seriously and that we hope, in this small way, to start the process of moving away from pious platitudes and exhortations to more positive action.
Question, put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pavitt, Mr. Lubbock, Sir B. Stross, Dr. Dickson Mabon, Mr. F. Noel-Baker, Mr. Milne, Mrs. Slater, Mr. C. Royle, Mr. Lipton, and Sir C. Black.

CIGARETTES (HEALTH HAZARDS)
  CIGARETTES (HEALTH HAZARDS)
  Bill to make it illegal to sell packets of cigarettes which are not clearly marked with a warning of the health hazards which arise from smoking, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday, 10th April and to be printed. [Bill 88.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  INCOME TAX MANAGEMENT BILL
  3.52 p.m.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Alan Green): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill brings the law governing Income Tax machinery and procedures up to date. It should prove a useful contribution to the modernisation and simplification of the tax code, enabling worthwhile administrative changes to be made immediately and paving the way for possible future reforms. It will assist the revenue to adopt the most businesslike arrangements for dealing with assessments and claims and for collecting tax. I also believe that its proposals will be welcomed by the professional bodies concerned and that it will be to the convenience of the general body of taxpayers.
  The Measure incorporates a number of changes which have been candidates for a Finance Bill in recent years. It is difficult to find room in a Finance Bill for procedural reforms or time for their consideration during the Budget and Finance Bill debates, when other more immediately interesting matters fully occupy the time of the House. This has resulted in the accumulation over the years of a series of acceptable changes, any one of which hardly warranted priority taken by itself, but which, taken together, seem well worth making.
  Accordingly, the Government decided to combine these charges in a Bill which will not affect the scope of the charges to tax and which can, therefore, properly be considered apart from and before the Budget and Finance Bill. I am particularly glad that it falls to me to introduce the Bill, for its most important purpose is to give effect to two recommendations of the Select Committee on Estimates based on evidence given to a sub-committee, of which I happened to be chairman.
  These recommendations were, first, that responsibility for the making of Income Tax assessments should be transferred from the general or special
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  commissioners to the inspector of taxes, as earlier recommended by the Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income, and by its predecessor, the 1920 Royal Commission, and, secondly, that Profits Tax assessments should also be made locally by the inspector of taxes, instead of centrally by the Board of Inland Revenue. Effect is given to these recommendations by Clauses 5 and 10.
  I think that the proposals in the Bill regarding assessing functions will be more easily followed if I deal first with these Clauses and certain associated Clauses. I will come back later to Clauses 1 to 4. In Clause 5 there is a saving for certain income from Government and foreign securities which will be assessed centrally by the Board. Clause 5 also transfers formal responsibility for making Surtax assessments from the special commissioners to the Board, but the Board is given a general power to delegate any of its assessing functions to an officer of the Board. This would enable the administration of Surtax to be decentralised, in whole or in part, without further legislation, if this course seemed desirable.
  This bears on another recommendation of the Estimates Committee; that the possibility of decentralising Surtax should be re-examined. The Board explained to that Committee why it would be desirable to defer a decision on this for a year or two, but, whatever views may be held on the merits, I am sure that it would be generally agreed that a decision on this point should depend on administrative considerations and that this opportunity should be taken of introducing the necessary enabling legislation.
  The removal of nominal responsibility for the making of assessments from the commissioners should be generally welcomed. Nominal though the responsibility may be at present, it has meant that Income Tax assessments have tended to be made in batches two or three times a year. This has meant congestion of work for professional advisers and, therefore, some inconvenience to taxpayers, as well as some additional cost to the Revenue.
  This change will mean the abolition of the office of additional commissioners. These commissioners have done good

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  service and I should like to thank them warmly for the work they have performed. I am sure that the committees which advise the Lord Chancellor on the appointment of general commissioners will have the names of those who have been acting as additional commissioners very much in mind when they make further recommendations.
  The recommendations of the Estimates Committee and the Royal Commission on this topic were unqualified. Further examination of the implications, however, have led us to propose one important restriction on the assessing powers to be given to the Revenue. This is contained in Clause 6, with a corresponding restriction for Profits Tax included in Clause 10.
  Assessments for years outside the normal time-limits in cases of fraud, wilful default or neglect are to be made only with the leave of a general or special commissioner. It did not seem right to give the Revenue unfettered discretion in such cases, especially as the present practice is to draw them especially to the attention of the assessing commissioner.
  The Royal Commission also recommended that the appeal commissioners should be relieved of their other executive functions. Most of these relate to claims for reliefs and the transfer of functions is effected by Clause 9 and its consequential repeals.
  I return to Clause 1. When the assessing responsibilities have been transferred to the Inland Revenue, the general commissioners will be free to devote themselves entirely to the hearing of appeals. It is hoped to help them in this by removing the present limits on the number of appointments which may be made; and Clause 1 also empowers the Lord Chancellor to alter the number and boundaries of the "divisions" for which general commissioners act. This will enable the number of commissioners for any division to be matched to the volume of appeal work for that division.
  It is, of course, the appeal work that has become the main responsibility of commissioners in recent years—and it is a very important responsibility. When Income Tax was first introduced, in 1799, its administration was placed generally in the hands of local bodies
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  of general commissioners. Over the years, this work has come largely into the hands of the Government, but it has remained the position and will still remain the position that the inspector of taxes as the representative of the Government does not have the final say as to the amount of tax that any person must pay. The final arbiters, subject only to appeal to the courts on a point of law, art the general commissioners and they with their local knowledge are the persons best qualified to decide the many questions of fact which come before them.
  It has often been said that the Income Tax system of this country can work only so long as it is accepted, however reluctantly, by the great majority of taxpayers. If that acceptance is forthcoming, and I believe that it is, it is mainly because members of the public know that if they disagree with the assessments made on them, they do not have to accept the inspector's say-so and can put their case to an independent tribunal in whom they may have the fullest confidence.
  This is not, I trust, an inappropriate moment for a Financial Secretary to make his bow to the way in which the great bulk of the taxpayers face up to their responsibilities for the payment of tax. I do not think that it is fully appreciated how much time the commissioners devote to their duties. I should like here to pay them a most warm tribute for the work they do. There are about 5,500 commissioners at work in 700 divisions throughout the country, meeting regularly and in some of the busiest divisions as frequently as once a week, or perhaps a fortnight.
  To preserve the confidentiality of appellants' Income Tax affairs, the public are not admitted to commissioners' proceedings and for this reason the valuable public service which they render goes largely unrecorded. Their work is nevertheless as important within Income Tax as that performed in another respect by the lay justices.
  Like justices of the peace, the general commissioners receive no payment for their services. They have, however, since 1958 received travelling and overnight lodging allowances similar to those paid to justices. The Administration of Justice Bill, now before the House, pro-

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  poses that justices should also be paid day subsistence allowances and we are taking the opportunity of the present Bill to authorise the payment of day subsistence allowances to general commissioners as well.
  At this point I might perhaps mention one or two other changes in Clause 1 relating to the appointment and tenure of office of general commissioners. Since 1958, most appointments of commissioners in England and Wales have been made by the Lord Chancellor. The City of London, certain City corporations and 11 other ancient cities, selected as long ago as 1799, at the time that Income Tax itself was selected, and some of them now relatively small, have, however, retained the power to make a number of additional appointments.
  We propose that all appointments shall in future be made by the Lord Chancellor. We have sought the views of these appointing authorities and I am glad to say that they are all content to surrender these powers. In Scotland, the general commissioners are appointed by the county councils and by certain town councils and we are proposing no change there. Finally, on Clause 1, we propose to introduce a retiring age of 75 for commissioners such as already exists for justices of the peace.
  Clause 2 deals with the commissioners' clerks. It introduces a retiring age of 70, with extension beyond that age to a limit of 75, if the commissioners so wish. This follows broadly the present practice for justices' clerks, and we are also making provision for the payment for the first time of pensions to the small number of full-time clerks to commissioners.
  To dispose of the first Part of the Bill, headed "Administration", I take now Clauses 3 and 4. Clause 3 and its associated repeals makes it clear that inspectors or collectors, wherever serving, may act in relation to any part of the country. They may also continue any proceedings, legal or administrative, begun by any other inspector or collector, without prejudice, of course, to the right of the courts to require any particular inspector or collector to appear.
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  Clause 4 and Schedule 1 generalise the statutory declarations of secrecy, at present limited in terms to Schedule D. This follows a recommendation of the Royal Commission—and the Clause also requires the same declarations to be made by members of appeal tribunals not at present covered. I should also mention here that there is no reason why these first four Clauses should not come into force one month after the passing of the Act and provision is made accordingly. The remainder of the Bill would come into force on 6th April, next year.
  The proposals to which I have referred so far have been concerned primarily with the making of assessments and the determination of appeals. I now pass to two Clauses directed to facilitating the collection of settled liabilities. Clause 8 extends the limits on the amounts of Income Tax which the Revenue can recover by local proceedings by enabling recovery action to be taken in certain cases in the county court as an alternative to High Court proceedings. At present, collectors can take local action for recovery by proceedings before magistrates—in Scotland, in the sheriff court—but only where the unpaid debt is less than £50. The £50 figure dates from 1924. Where the unpaid tax is £50 or more recovery proceedings have to be taken in the High Court—in Scotland, in the Court of Session—which involves heavier costs than local proceedings.
  I think that it is clearly desirable to enable local proceedings to be taken in a wider range of cases, and for this purpose Clause 8 confers on collectors additional rights to take proceedings in the county court—in Scotland, the sheriff court. The ordinary limits on amount in those courts will apply: namely, £400 in England and Wales, £300 in Northern Ireland and £250 in Scotland.
  The other Clause dealing with collection is Clause 13. This will interest the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) particularly. This extends the existing provisions for what is usually known as a "payment on account" to be made before the determination of an appeal. In strictness, such payments follow at present a decision by the appeal commissioners that part of the tax

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  assessed appears not to be in dispute. In practice, agreement is usually reached without bringing in the commissioners but sometimes the payment on account is not, in fact, paid as promptly as it is agreed,. Where this happens the case must be taken to the commissioners for a formal order, with consequent further delay in collection. This Clause, modelled on the provisions under which the appeal itself can be settled by agreement without a formal order by the commissioners, will enable agreed payments on account to be collected without troubling the commissioners.
  Other new provisions requiring special mention relate to Northern Ireland cases. These are to be found in Clauses 14 and 15. There are no general commissioners in Northern Ireland; all appeals go in the first instance to the special commissioners. The Northern Ireland taxpayer can, however, in effect, have his appeal against an Income Tax or Profits Tax assessment determined by a local tribunal by requiring a rehearing by the county court judge if dissatisfied with the decision of the special commissioners. This rehearing provision has caused much unnecessary work and has enabled dilatory taxpayers to delay payment. New arrangements have, therefore, been worked out in consultation with the Northern Ireland Government. Under these the Northern Ireland taxpayer will retain his right to go to the county court. This will, however, be not a rehearing but an alternative to the special commissioners, if the taxpayer so elects.
  Clause 15 also provides for a right of appeal to the courts on a point of law against determination by the county court judge whose determinations at present, on a rehearing, are final. Such an appeal from the county court will go to the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland under the County Courts Appeals Bill (Northern Ireland) 1964, at present before the Northern Ireland Parliament. Provision is, therefore, made in Clause 14 for cases stated by the Special Commissioners in Northern Ireland cases to go to the Court of Appeal also.
  Those provisions of the Bill which I have not so far mentioned can, I think, be disposed of at this stage quite quickly. Clause 7 provides a single statutory base for the annual returns of income in general use. These are at present issued
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  under the authority of an amalgamation of provisions, some directed to income not taxed at source, others requiring information only in support of claims for allowances.
  The opportunity has been taken in Clause 9 to set out anew the procedures for making and determining claims to reliefs and allowances, and we hope that Schedule 2, which lists the standard procedure for virtually all claims, will prove helpful. Such changes as are made accord with accepted practice, and they are in no way prejudicial to existing appeal rights or options.
  Clause 11 and Schedule 3 are required to determine which general commissioners have primary jurisdiction on appeals; that is, to determine the "place of appeal", replacing the present "place of assessment" which ceases to be significant. The rules again preserve all the options at present open to the taxpayer, and new provision is made for transfers of proceedings between bodies of commissioners to be agreed between the parties.
  Clause 12 is largely a restatement of incidental appeal provisions, but new provision it made for the acceptance of late appeals by the inspector without reference to the commissioners, so authorising what is, in fact, generally accepted practice.
  Finally, opportunity is taken in the various Clauses and Schedules of clarifying the existing law and of repealing many provisions which are spent or obsolete. As a result, it will be possible to remove about 65 Sections and five Schedules from the Statute Book and to facilitate that future consolidation which I am sure we all wish to see when time permits.
  I feel quite sure that the general purpose and main proposals in the Bill will commend themselves to hon. Members on both sides of the House, and, certainly, their inclusion in a management Bill will have—I am sure—the support of the hon. Member for Sowerby who has on more than one occasion suggested—and often quite strongly—that such a Measure deserved consideration.
  Administrative matters are perhaps not so exciting as the heady topics we debate on the Finance Bill, and the present

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  administrative arrangements for the Income Tax have served us well for a long time; but I am sure the time has now come to modernise them. A great deal of thought has gone into the proposals in the Bill. I believe that they will give us a sensible and up-to-date code of machinery and procedures for operation. Accordingly, I trust that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
  4.14 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: I am sure that the whole House will thank the Financial Secretary for his very clear and lucid explanation of the Clauses of the Bill. I wish to acknowledge straight away his kindly reference to my own efforts over many years to get a Bill of this kind. I should have appreciated the honour had the Government asked me to add my name to the Bill, because I have been anxious that reforms of administration should be brought before this House at a time when we were not under the stress of the timetable and the controversial matters which are frequently in the Finance Bill itself.
  On the face of it, this is very dull stuff. Only those in the business know what an exciting and historic Bill this is. It ends out-of-date and cumbersome procedures and a long-standing and wasteful fiction in Income Tax administration. The Financial Secretary made it clear to the House that the Bill is administration. It deals in the main with the machinery of assessment and appeals. It neither imposes additional tax nor gives any relief from tax. All it does is sweep away some of the remaining cobwebs of 1842. It repeals more than it enacts, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, towards the conclusion of his speech, and later I shall be referring to the great waste-paper basket of the Bill, which is Schedule 6.
  The Financial Secretary harked back to 1920. I hope that the House will bear with me for a few moments while I sketch the history of the Bill. I am sure that the Financial Secretary is right when he says that this will be a non-contentious Bill, but 43 years ago, when a Revenue Bill was first introduced, it was so controversial that the Government withdrew it before the Second Reading. The proceedings on that Bill
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  were an absolute fiasco, because the Government were beaten by the Daily Mail and the General Commissioners for the City of London before they had uttered a single word in this House in defence of the proposals in the Bill. There has never been an occasion, as far as I know, to equal it.
  Strong forces were gathered behind the preservation of the traditional local administration of the Income Tax. The general commissioners were held out to be the estimable body of gentlemen, and certainly they were—and are—who stood between the tyranny of bureaucracy and the helpless taxpayer; the assessors were men who saw that justice was done; and the collectors held themselves out to be the buffer between the bureaucracy and the taxpayer. Emotions ran high in 1920. The surveyor, as he then was—now the inspector of taxes—the Treasury watchdog, had his function, and no one doubted it, but neither the House, nor, so it appeared, the country, was then willing for the inspector of taxes to exercise legally the functions which, by force of circumstances, he had come to exercise informally within the procedure of the Income Tax Act.
  I think that the story of the Bill may be a slight discouragement to those in the House who are calling upon the country to modernise itself and bring itself up-to-date and somewhat of a discouragement to those in the House who would like to see law reform got under way, because my short story will show that the clarion call comes from a Legislature which takes as its own model not the hare, not even the tortoise, but the snail. That is the history of this Bill.
  We had a Royal Commission in 1920, and Clauses in the Bill are derivatives of recommendations by that Commission. It recommended that all collectors should be appointed by the Board of Inland Revenue and that the general management of collection should be under the Board's control. It recommended that, as soon as administratively possible, all collectors should become civil servants. It recommended that the office of assessor should be abolished and his duties should devolve upon the inspector, and that the functions of general commissioners should be practically confined to

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  appeals. That all sounds commonplace today, and part of it is in the Bill, but it seemed outrageous then. I can only think that the Government did not give way on that Bill except under the strongest pressure.
  On 22nd February, 1921, the then Leader of the House was asked what he was going to do about the Bill and whether it would be taken on the Floor of the House. He said:
  "No, I shall ask the House to send it upstairs. That is the only hope of passing it. If the House treats it as a contentious measure it will not be proceeded with."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February, 1921; Vol. 138, c. 760.]
  And in the event it was not proceeded with. They introduced the Bill on 6th April, 1921—a very appropriate date: the first day of the Income Tax year.
  I looked at that Bill the other day. It proposed to abolish the office of Assessor and the notices to be issued by the Surveyor. It proposed that the power of making assessments should go to the Surveyor in the case of Schedules A, B and E. As regards Schedule D, the power to assess was to be put in the hands of the inspector only if any assessment did not exceed the amount returned for assessment, or was computed from accounts furnished by the taxpayer, or did not exceed the amount assessed for the previous year on the same source of profits or income. That was a real strait-waistcoat for the inspector of taxes, but it was in that Bill of 1920 which, apparently, some vested interest and public opinion could not swallow.
  On 4th May, 1921, the then Leader of the House was asked what was to happen to the Bill. He replied:
  "It is not now proposed to carry the Revenue Bill further this Session"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th May, 1921; Vol. 141, c. 1045.]
  The next relevant entry in the OFFICIAL REPORT is "Bill withdrawn"—and that is the last we hear of it. It was sunk without trace, and for years afterwards the ancient procedures and wasteful methods which the Royal Commission in 1920 unanimously declared had "outlived their usefulness" were continued.
  The inadequate machinery had to be worked by the Inland Revenue. The grand total of time and materials wasted in administering the Income Tax under the old provisions which this House failed to reform 43 years ago must be very
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  great, indeed. I humbly suggest to this House that if that is its record, it is not in a position to lecture other people about getting rid of cumbersome methods, about bringing their organisation up to date, about cutting out things that lead to waste of staff, and all the rest. We have been guilty for 43 years, but I see no blushes on the faces of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. After all, they have been able to do something for the last 12 years—but I will not make a party point of this; I will say that successive Governments have failed to bring about the reform
  They have done some of it piecemeal. Under the stress of war, it was necessary to make drastic changes in the method of assessment of wages and salaries, and a very significant change was made then—
  Mr. R. H. Turton: I am sure that, as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, the hon. Gentleman will wish to pay tribute to the fact that this situation has been ended through the Estimates Committee, and the Chairman of Sub-Committee C of the Estimates Committee, having gone into the question and advocated the alteration.
  Mr. Houghton: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but he is rather overtaking my speech. I will pay full tribute to Sub-Committee C of the Estimates Committee but, if the House will bear with me, this is the only entertainment the House will have. All the rest will be had going on individual Clauses, so hon. Members should make the most of this light interlude on the history of the Bill.
  I shall not weary the House by describing the appointment and swearing in of assessors who no longer assessed, of collectors who could no longer collect, and of general commissioners who had to be persuaded to make and allow assessments they never saw, but that is what has happened in Income Tax administration over these years. It is no wonder that two Royal Commissions paid tribute to the resourcefulness and skill with which the Inland Revenue improvised and circumvented to overcome the impedimenta of a century.
  It is hard to believe that the withdrawal of that Bill in 1921 meant that

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  the only statutory means of communication between the tax assessors and the taxpayers generally was the church door notice—and that was only one stage removed from the town crier. Assessors nailed these notices on church doors right up to 1939. In 1941, through the initiative of the agreeable, and subsequently notorious, Guy Burgess—who died in Moscow just recently—the first radio talk on Income Tax was given, and it fell to me to give it, in a programme called, if I may say so without advertising, "Can I help you?". That is still a popular feature of our sound radio, and I am glad still to be in it.
  That was a break-through into the twentieth century but, of course, the machinery of Income Tax could not stand still even though the House had failed to reform it by statutory means. Collectors had to be absorbed into the establishment. It took 11 years after the dropping of the 1921 Bill to embark on the first Measure of centralisation. The old service was by then near breakdown. Collectors appointed by local commissioners were frequently incapable of doing the job properly, large sums of money were passing through their hands, and the Public Accounts Committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention to the increasing amount of all faults and muddle.
  The Government had to act, as they did in 1931. But, true to tradition, in 1952 this House passed the Income Tax Act, a consolidation Measure, which, in the Fourth Schedule, reaffirmed the power of general commissioners to pursue defaulting collectors beyond the grave. I quote from paragraph 6(1) of the Fourth Schedule of the Act of 1952—not of 1852, but of 1952:
  "If a collector fails to pay any tax or moneys received by him as collector, and detains in his hand, and does not pay or account for the same in manner directed by this Act, the General Commissioners, in their respective divisions, may seize and secure the freehold estate and all other estate, both real and personal, belonging to him or which has descended or come into the possession of his heirs, executors, administrators or assigns, wheresoever the same can be discovered and found."
  That was the power given to general commissioners of Income Tax as recently as 1952. When I asked how many collectors were then in a position to be pursued beyond the grave, the
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  answer was. I think, one. This present Bill now tumbles the whole lot into limbo.
  The Royal Commission of 1955 had a go at this business, too, and dealt with it all in Chapter 31 of its Report. Six years later, the Estimates Committee had a go and, as the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has just said, the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary, as Chairman of Sub-Committee C, heard all the evidence, produced an admirable Report, and pursued the recommendations with a doggedness that was quite reassuring. The Sub-Committee put the Board of Inland Revenue on the spot—I hope that the hon. Gentleman is still keeping the Board there. As he has said, the proposals in this Bill emanated from the Report of the Estimates Committee.
  So here we are, in the year 1964; we complete the story of 43 years of galloping reform—and arrive, breathless, at the Second Reading of this Bill. That is the story. Indeed, I believe that we only get the Bill now because, the Government having postponed the General Election, there is a little lull in the legislative programme and the Bill has been pulled out of the pigeon-hole—though I am glad that it has been. I am sure that the House will welcome it. I can assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that the whole of the Inland Revenue Department will welcome it, not because its staffs are thirsting for more power, or thirsting to exercise the responsibilities of bureaucracy any more intensively than in the past, but because it will facilitate their work.
  For an inspector to be able to make an assessment at any time, especially if it has been agreed with the taxpayer, to clinch the thing, get it settled and the money paid, will surely be good business, instead of waiting for the general commissioners to raise additional assessments, with all the apparatus and paraphernalia connected therewith, leading often to much delay and to the possibility of losing the money in the end.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to almost all the Clauses, and I was grateful to him for explaining Clause 1 which gives power to change the number and the boundaries of divisions. That stems directly from the Report of the Royal Commission of 1920. The method of

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  appointment of general commissioners comes partly from paragraph 348 of the 1920 Royal Commission and partly from paragraph 958 of the Radcliffe Commission of 1955. It now completes the process which was begun in the Tribunals and Inquiries Act, 1958, when, as the hon. Gentleman has explained, certain exceptions from appointment by the Lord Chancellor were then accepted by the House, and I am very glad to hear that a clean sweep can be made by agreement with all those concerned. That is a good thing.
  Clause 2 is welcome because it deals with the position of many public servants who are full-time, and who give long and faithful service, but who have not been provided with any superannuation arrangements. They are not civil servants, and it is right that they should continue not to be civil servants. They are servants of the commissioners, who, in their capacity as the appellant body, will want to have a clerk who can advise them independently without owing any allegiance whatever to the Inland Revenue Department.
  Clause 4 deals with declarations of secrecy which came under some criticism in paragraph 949 of the Radcliffe Report. There were some weaknesses in the declarations that had been required under the existing law. The new proposals will make them more comprehensive.
  Clause 5 is the major Clause and the main reform of the Bill. It transfers to inspectors and to the Board of Inland Revenue the power of making assessments. The first part implements the recommendations of the Radcliffe Committee, paragraph 943, and the second part implements paragraph 950. I was very glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say, because I was going to ask him, that Clause 5 paves the way to decentralisation of Surtax.
  The hon. Gentleman was Chairman of Sub-Committee C of the Estimates Committee, which had all the evidence from the Inland Revenue Department, the Income Tax Payers' Society, the Association of Certified and Corporate Accountants, the Federation of British Industries and staff associations and which showed a considerable weight of opinion in favour of decentralisation of Surtax. The Inland Revenue was a little
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  coy about it. It pleaded overwork. which is nothing new for the Inland Revenue—it is always suffering from it—and it begged for a little more time to consider what it should do. For the moment, I think that we can be content that it is now possible for that to be done without fresh legislation.
  The Financial Secretary was right when he said that it had to be considered as a matter of administration in all its aspects. I do not think that we need any longer concern ourselves with any feelings of sensitiveness of the Surtax-payer about having his affairs dealt with by the special commissioners and not by the general commissioners. That was certainly in the matter to begin with, but I do not think these considerations weigh any longer. It is now a question of economy and efficiency of administration. I stall not detain the House by expressing any judgment on that matter.
  I would only permit myself to say that I am sure that the Financial Secretary will agree that there is a good deal of inter-communication between district officers and the special commissioners at present, and a very large amount of that would be saved. There are factors on the other side. I suppose that I had better say outright that I am a decentraliser and have been for years. I think that it makes sense, and I hope that further examination will prove that that is a wise thing to do.
  The Financial Secretary pointed out that Clause 6 qualifies the right of the inspector to make an assessment on his own when it is out of time on grounds of fraud, wilful default or neglect. Then he has to get a general or a special commissioner to assent to the making of the assessment which is out of time in those conditions. I think that that is a reasonable safeguard to the taxpayer. The inspector is then moving perhaps into a contentious field where a taxpayer may feel strongly about something and where tensions may develop rather more than at another time, but I think that for the inspector to get the support of an independent person is a reasonable safeguard.
  Clause 8 is of importance because it deals with the power of recovery. It has been absurd that the recovery of unpaid Income Tax, not recoverable by

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  distraint, could be dealt with only by summary proceedings for amounts up to £50 and that recovery of amounts over £50 had to be taken through the High Court. It was quite fantastic. No wonder the so-called assessment division of the Inland Revenue has files years old because it cannot take proceedings for one reason or another, and I hope that this will clear up a lot of arrears which, under the existing system, have unavoidably accumulated.
  In being able to go to the county court for up to £400 in England and Wales, £300 in Northern Ireland and £250 in Scotland—I do not know why there is this difference, but that has nothing to do with the case—we are adopting the limits provided for under the county courts procedure, which is right, and certainly no attempt should be made to overstep them in the interests of the Inland Revenue. Clause 10 is the counterpart to Clause 6 in relation to Profits Tax.
  Clause 13 deals with the collection of the undisputed portion of an assessment which the taxpayer is questioning. The Financial Secretary described the existing procedure. On the face of it, it appears that this weakens a little the power of the Inland Revenue to recover the undisputed portion of the outstanding tax. As I see it, the provisions of the Clause apply only in the event of agreement being reached between the taxpayer and the Inland Revenue. If agreement is reached on the undisputed portion then that portion can be collected and payment can be enforced, but under Clause 13(2) it seems that the taxpayer is given 30 days from the date of reaching agreement to withdraw from it. He has a month to think it over after reaching agreement. If he decides that he would rather not, or his advisers suggest that he should not, continue, he can repudiate and only thereafter is he bound by the agreement reached.
  If there is no agreement, it looks as though there is no means of enforcing payment on the undisputed portion of the assessment. We shall have to examine this a little more closely in Committee. I am not at the moment pressing for anything. I merely want clarity on this. We can conceive of circumstances in which the disputed portion of the assess-
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  ment is the smaller pair, so that by disputing the pence the taxpayer can delay payment of the pounds, and only if he reaches agreement on the undisputed portion is he bound to pay anything at all till the appeal is settled.
  I think that the House will wish to be assured that taxpayers cannot play ducks and drakes and that if they want time to pay they should go to the collector for it in the proper way and not get it by methods of this kind. In parentheses, recalling that the Financial Secretary said that I would be interested in Clause 13, I wish to make clear that I do not owe anybody anything. There is no dispute on any part of my assessment. My interest in this matter is purely academic or administrative.
  I can hardly contain my enthusiasm for the Bill and my pleasure at seeing it after all these years. I congratulate the Financial Secretary on being the ministerial agency for its introduction. It must give him great satisfaction to be able to do it, especially after all his work through the many sittings of Sub-Committee C of the Estimates Committee. I am sure that the whole House will give this new and bold jump into the Britain of tomorrow a warm welcome. This is modernisation. This is creating a Britain which is up to date. On these grounds alone we should welcome the Bill.
  4.43 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Hopkins: I would not wish to cross swords with the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), whom I hold in very high regard, but I think that he was chiding us perhaps unfairly about the tardiness with which the Bill had been produced. As the hon. Member pointed out, the Bill is a fair step in modernisation, but I am sure that he would be the first to agree that it is an extremely complicated Measure. I have spent some nights trying to read it. I confess that it was more likely to put me to sleep than otherwise when I tried to understand it. It is complicated, but very well worth putting on the Statute Book.
  As a member of Sub-Committee C of the Estimates Committee, I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on his perseverance

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  in climbing the ladder from the chairmanship of that Sub-Committee to the Financial Secretaryship of the Treasury and, wearing the latter hat, putting forward this Bill now. I should like to pay tribute to him for the way in which as chairman he conducted the inquiry. We all went into the matter very thoroughly and we appreciated the way in which my hon. Friend allowed his colleagues on both sides of the Committee to put their points to the witnesses. I am sure that all members of the Committee will agree with me that we performed a useful function and that the Report was well received upon publication.
  I welcome Recommendation 6 by the Committee, on the abolition of the responsibility of additional commissioners for the assessment of returns. I remember hearing evidence of the reason for the appointment of these additional commissioners, and I go further back in point of time than did the hon. Member for Sowerby. I understand that in the middle of the last century it was found necessary to have additional commissioners because the inspector would not himself have the knowledge or the means of assessing individual incomes, particularly in the country. These individuals would not "come clean" with the inspector, whereas the additional commissioners, being possibly friends or competitors, would be more likely to know the income of the individual concerned. Times have changed and it seems that the need for additional commissioners is no longer as great, and, indeed, is not important at all today.
  I also welcome particularly Clause 5, which I understood the Financial Secretary to say enables the decentralisation of Surtax to take place, should that prove possible in time to come. I well remember the evidence given before the Sub-Committee on this point. It seemed to me overwhelmingly in favour of decentralisation. I appreciate the position of the Inland Revenue in that it would take some time administratively to make this change possible, and in the initial stages it might cost more in collection than the present centralised system. Is it the intention of the Revenue to continue to look at the decentralisation of Surtax, which I am sure from the point of view of taxpayers as a whole is more desirable than the
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  dual return which they now have to make for Income Tax and Surtax?
  My final point arises also out of the Report of Sub-Committee C relating to the treatment of taxpayers as a whole and the forms which are filled in. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary may well remember Recommendations 13 and 14 which refer to the possibilities of simplifying memoranda and pamphlets at present issued by the Revenue, in the former case, and the content and design of the forms which are issued to taxpayers with a view to achieving greater simplicity and clarity in the latter.
  In common with, no doubt, many hon. Members on both sides of the House, I have met in interviews many of my constituents who come with genuine problems relating to Income Tax and their returns. In most cases these could well have been settled if they had been in a position readily to understand what the whole form was about. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to let us know whether any further steps have been taken in the last two years towards clarifying the forms of return sent out to taxpayers, and also what further information has been made available to taxpayers as a whole through the offices of the local inspector of taxes.
  I appreciate that this is probably not a matter that requires legislation. I hope that my hon. Friend confirms this and will be kind enough to let us know whether this forward-looking part of the Bill will also be interpreted in the spirit in which the tax is extracted from taxpayers as a whole. I join in welcoming the Bill.
  4.50 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I should like to add my congratulations to the Minister for bringing in this revision of the administration, and the collection of Inland Revenue. My experience with constituents who come to me about Income Tax problems is that, fortunately, most of them are within reach of an Inland Revenue office and my advice to them always is to go to see the inspector of taxes. I find generally that the inspectors of taxes, and their staffs, even though they may be busy, are always most helpful in dealing with people who have difficulty in understanding the forms and understanding how to fill them up. We

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  ought to pay tribute to the work they do in this way. Many people find it difficult to fill in the forms and are rather frightened by them, especially if they do not ordinarily have to deal with financial affairs.
  Mr. Hopkins: The point I was trying to make—and I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman—was that if the forms themselves were more comprehensible the need to trouble the inspectors would not be as great.
  Mr. Woodburn: Yes. I am in no way criticising the hon. Gentleman. My experience is that no matter what the form is many people will find it difficult to fill it in. Indeed, I will make a confession: I find it difficult sometimes myself to understand exactly just what is expected on this form.
  There is another reason why we should congratulate the inspectors. When we consider the shortage of staff and the amount of work they have to tackle, then the amount they accomplish is quite remarkable. I should like the Minister to tell us whether there is any possibility of increasing the inspectorate. It is not an easy thing to be an inspector of Income Tax. It requires quite a lot of knowledge of the law and an intuitive faculty, as it were, to make the best job of it. The inspectors do quite wonderful things sometimes in estimating people's incomes which the people themselves do not know. It is quite remarkable how many people there are who do not know what their incomes are.
  I remember when the members of the Supreme Soviet came over here I was asked to look after those who were going to Scotland. I took them to a farm and they were extremely interested in the farmer and all he had to tell them. He was able to tell them all about his fertilisers, how many machines he had, everything about the costs of working the farm, the crops he grew, and so on. He knew all about those things. Then they asked him how much profit he made. He did not know. So how the poor Income Tax inspector finds out from him what his profit is is more than I can understand.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Perhaps I can explain that. He may have thought that the Soviet delegates were Income Tax inspectors in disguise.
  Mr. Woodburn: Perhaps that may have confused the calculations.
  I had a friend who knew a farmer—this was before the war, when money was not so plentiful among the farming community—who was complaining he had lost £600 the year before. My friend could not understand how this came about, and then to his surprise he found that the farmer estimated that he had made only £1,400 and so had lost £600. So we can understand that the Income Tax inspectors have a problem in dealing with people who do not know what is happening to themselves.
  However, I should like the Minister to tell us whether there is to be an increase in the inspectorate, because I think one of the best investments that this country can make is in having a sufficient inspectorate of taxes with sufficient time for the inspectors to do their job. It is a skilled job to study the returns of income made by some people. I used sometimes to study the returns of a number of people and, frankly, I was not able to understand them or how it was they made them.
  For instance, I know what it costs to live in my own city. I know what it costs to live in my house. I see houses where nobody could possibly live at the amount of income those householders must have if the figures in their returns are correct. There are many people living at a standard above that which is their standard, judging by their Income Tax returns, if those returns are correct.
  I am assuming that if there were a sufficient inspectorate the inspectors would be able to do much more work in helping people to make correct returns of income, and this would bring in a very much larger income to the country as a whole. It is legal to avoid Income Tax, and there are lawyers who earn their living by telling people how to avoid paying Income Tax. There are quite a number of people who lecture us on our public duty but who go to live in other countries for six months or more of the year to avoid doing their duty by paying their share of Income Tax. They draw huge incomes and lecture other people and then leave them to pay the taxes which maintain the Army, the Navy and the Air Force which protect us all. Not so much as should be is paid from their

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  handsome incomes for that. If the Inland Revenue authorities could get at some of the mean people who allow others to do their job for them by paying their taxes for them it would give a little more satisfaction to the public generally when they pay their taxes, and it would also bring in a larger amount of revenue to the Government.
  I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) said about the Bill. He dealt efficiently with the Clauses and the actual administration, and I am quite sure that none of us could improve upon what he said. I agree entirely with what he said, that the confidence we shall have with this decentralisation will help the Income Tax inspectors and others in their work; and we hope that eventually it will bring to the Treasury a greater return, both in cash and in good will, than at present exists.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. Rafton Pounder: I, too, would like to add my own personal welcome to the Bill. Any legislation which seeks, as the Bill does, to modernise the law relating to the machinery and procedures of Income Tax is assured of a favourable reception not only inside this House, but also among the tax-paving public outside.
  I will go further and suggest that the Bill, which seeks to simplify the administrative provisions relating to the assessment and collection of Income Tax and Profits Tax, will not only have a favourable welcome, but will be welcomed with open arms. It will gladden the hearts of many of my fellow accountants to see the Bill on the Statute Book.
  For many years the law and administrative processes surrounding Income Tax, and, indeed, Profits Tax, has been overburdened with a plethora of small, trivial technicalities. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) gave what was to my mind a fascinating and entertaining history of the origin of some of these trivialities. Many legal anomalies will remain, but some glaring administrative ones will be got rid of by the Bill. It is sufficiently difficult for the average taxpayer to comprehend the maze of Income Tax legislation without burdening him further with all the unneces-
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  sary administrative complexities which seem to go hand in hand with Income Tax law.
  I say this not only as a taxpayer, but as an accountant, The extent to which the Bill will amend existing legislation—perhaps, spring clean would be a more descriptive phrase—is only fully appreciated, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby mentioned, when we study the list in Schedule 6 of enactments being repealed. The aim of a good spring clean is, of course, to remove cobwebs—obsolescent, administrative cobwebs in this case.
  Before turning to those parts of the Bill which I found to be particularly worthy of comment, there are one or two general observations which I should like to make. The transfer of the formal responsibility for making Income Tax assessments from the general or special commissioners to Inland Revenue officers is welcome, even if somewhat belated. On one point which my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary outlined about the age limit at which general commissioners must retire, the age of 75, although I appreciate that this will bring them into line with comparable posts, never heless I should have thought there might be a case for reducing the age to 70.
  The provisions contained in Clause 13 have attracted a good deal of comment. I was very surprised when I read the Clause, because I am forced to admit that ever since the days when I was an articled clerk, in an accountant's office in Belfast, I personally believed that the matters contained in the Clause were already law. I am relying on memory, but I feel quite convinced that the local inspectors of taxes with whom I used to deal worked on the principle that only that section of an assessment which was the subject of an appeal remained outstanding and that on which there was no disagreement was settled.
  I wish to draw particular attention to Clauses 14 and 15, which relate to Northern Ireland. The Bill makes fairly far-reaching changes. As has been said, there are no general commissioners in Northern Ireland. This situation has a historical or gin. It was, if I remember aright, the Income Tax Act, 1918, which instituted the general commissioners, and in those years Northern Ireland had

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  other matters preoccupying its mind, and it was felt that locally appointed general commissioners could lead to difficulty in the circumstances then prevailing. However, I cannot help feeling that, 45 years or so later, the time has come to consider the appointment of general commissioners in Northern Ireland, and I regret that there is no such provision in the Bill.
  The absence of general commissioners imposes an almost intolerable burden upon the special commissioners acting in Northern Ireland. To give the House an idea of what is involved, I shall list the duties falling upon these gentlemen, which, it will be remembered, are shared by general commissioners on this side of the water. Special commissioners in Northern Ireland make all the assessments. They hear every single appeal. They sign all the warrants for levying tax and determining claims for exemption. They deal with all the claims for abatement and repayment of tax. All this work has to be carried out during the course of two brief visits which the special commissioners make to Northern Ireland each year. If there were general commissioners who met more often and who were more readily accessible, the work load, I feel sure, would be much more evenly spread.
  The outcome of the present situation, of course, is that many of the appeals which are lodged for hearing before the special commissioners are never even reached. How could they be on the basis of biannual visits into which so many other matters besides the hearing of appeals must be crowded?
  Clause 14 is designed to reduce the number of avenues of appeal which are open to the Northern Ireland taxpayer, but, although my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary referred, I thought, with pleasure to a tidying up in this respect, I frankly admit that I regret what is proposed. To my mind, it is a retrograde step that cases against determinations of the special commissioners now have to go direct to the Court of Appeal instead of first to the High Court and thence to the Court of Appeal. I regard the omission of that step in the avenue of appeal as regrettable.
  I am not altogether satisfied with the proposed alteration of the present
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  system whereby an appeal to the special commissioners can go for a rehearing by the recorder or county court judge. The existing system is now to be altered, with the right of election to appeal direct to the county court judge instead of to the special commissioners. Again, I am not altogether happy at the omission of this rather important step.
  I draw one inference from the Bill with regard to the decisions of the recorder or county court judge, and I should be glad if my hon. Friend would confirm that my conclusion is correct. Previously, there has been no appeal against such decisions, whether on a question of fact or on a question of law. Now, I understand, a point of law can be the subject of appeal and the claimant, the appellant, can go to the Court of Appeal. If my deduction is correct, I regard this as a welcome provision.
  None of the proposed changes in appeal procedure makes any move to overcome the major deterrent factor affecting many appellants. I submit that countless thousands of dissatisfied taxpayers and would-be appellants have been deterred by the cost of an appeal to the superior courts. However, I imagine that this is quite outside the framework of the Bill and that it will have to be a subject for another occasion.
  To my mind, there are three criteria by which any Measure for the modernisation of our taxation system should be judged. First, will the Bill benefit the taxpayer in any way? Secondly, will it be unworkable for practising accountants? Thirdly, will it be of assistance in streamlining the administrative processes of the Inland Revenue?
  Briefly, my answers to those questions are these. It seems very doubtful that the Bill will make any difference to the taxpayer, except, perhaps, the Northern Ireland appellant, and he, I cannot help feeling, is given a rather raw deal under the Bill. Secondly it seems that the work of the practising accountant will not be either complicated or alleviated in any way by the Bill. Thirdly, undoubtedly the Bill is of very substantial value in streamlining the work of the Inland Revenue.
  In conclusion, may I ask my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to give

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  fresh thought to the desirability of bringing Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom in the appointment and scope of duties of general commissioners.
  5.5 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: I do not pretend to be an expert on Income Tax law. I find it very difficult to fill in my own forms and to understand the matter at all, and, in this respect, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), I am greatly indebted to the inspector of taxes and his staff, who are always very helpful. I take this opportunity of paying tribute to them, based on my own personal experience both past and present.
  The Bill relates to Scotland, of course, and I see the name of the Secretary of State on the back of it. There are one or two points of importance in the Scottish context which should be raised. As I understand it, the Bill makes no change in the appointment of general commissioners in Scotland, and I wonder whether this is a good thing. I am intrigued by Clause 1(3):
  "General Commissioners for divisions in Scotland shall be appointed by, and shall hold office during the pleasure of, the appropriate local authority, but any such General Commissioner shall not be dismissed except with the consent in writing of the Lord President of the Court of Session."
  This seems to be something of a contradiction. If a general commissioner may not be dismissed without the consent of the Lord President of the Court of Session, it seems clear that the local authority cannot dismiss him. We have a rather similar situation in Scotland in regard to the assessor in local authorities, only in that case the consent has to come from the Secretary of State, not the Lord President of the Court of Session. Why should it be the Lord President of the Court of Session? I see neither rhyme nor reason in it.
  Clause 1(4) provides that
  "In Scotland a sheriff shall be ex officio a General Commissioner".
  I could understand this in the past, in more leisured days when sheriffs, by and large, were a leisurely class of people. But we are moving now into a time when the sheriff, and particularly the
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  salaried sheriff-substitute, who, also, is ex officio a general commissioner, is an exceedingly busy man. The salaried sheriff-substitute in Glasgow, Edinburgh, or any large town of Scotland has the whole of his time occupied in the work of the courts. I imagine that he would find it rather difficult to give to this job the time which shiuld be given.
  This is why I wonder whether it is right not to reconsider the situation in Scotland as regards general commissioners and make changes in the set-up there. As I say, the provisions of Clause 1(4) relate to a time long passed. Contrary to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) about the Bill modernising our procedures, we are here hanging on to something which is quite out of date and out of accord with present circumstances in Scotland.
  The same point occurs to me in connection with Clause 8, with which I agree. Subsection (4), which deals with Scotland and the raising of the amount which can be sued for in the sheriff court, is a good provision. It brings the law into line with recent legislation which put up the amount for which one can sue in the sheriff court to £250. I do not know what the position is in county courts in England, but I know the position in sheriff courts in Scotland. People in Scotland spend two, three and four weeks in prison because they cannot get a trial.
  Mr. George Lawson: We had a case in Edinburgh only last week in which a man spent 104 days in prison before being tried. He has now been tried after 110 days in prison, and this does not seem to be unusual.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. It would be a mistake to go too far on that line in this debate.
  Mr. Lawson: On a point of order. Is it not in order to discuss whether courts which are being given a duty under the Bill are likely to be able to carry out that duty?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Reference to the matter is quite in order as long as hon. Members do not go too far.
  Mr. Willis: I am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
  I was dealing with Clause 8(4), which states:
  "In Scotland subsection (1) of this section shall not apply, but where the amount of income tax for the time being due and payable under any assessment does not exceed two hundred and fifty pounds the tax may, without prejudice to any other remedy, be sued for and recovered from the person charged therewith as a debt due to the Crown by proceedings commenced in the name of a collector of taxes in the sheriff court or in the sheriff's small debt court, whichever is appropriate."
  In Scotland, men are kept in prison because they cannot be brought before a court for trial. This extension in functions performed by the sheriff court is likely to prejudice that situation and make it worse.
  I should like some information about this subsection. To what extent are cases likely to be taken to court under it? Will it be a handful or hundreds of cases? The larger the number, the greater will be the delay. A number of my hon. Friends have repeatedly raised something which has become a scandal in Glasgow, namely, the delay in cases being heard in sheriff courts.
  I understand that the position of sheriffs and sheriff substitutes and of their functions and the procedures of the sheriff courts are being considered by a committee in Scotland. I am sorry that there is not a Scottish Minister here to deal with this matter. The attention of this committee should be drawn to Clause 8, so that it may take it into account when making recommendations. It would have been a good idea to draw the attention of the same committee to sheriffs being appointed ex officio general commissioners. It might be able to recommend whether this practice should be continued.
  These are matters in the Bill with which I am concerned, and I feel that they should be the concern of one of the Scottish Ministers. They should be brought to the attention of the committee considering the functions and duties of sheriff substitutes so that it will have them in mind when making recommendations about the future of these bodies in Scotland.
  5.16 p.m.
  Sir James Duncan: I too, welcome the Bill because it is a piece of streamlining which is entirely in line with Tory Party policy in the twentieth century. It has the advantage that it will cost no money because it deals with management and efficiency. It is more likely to save money than cost money. For those reasons, I welcome it.
  I wish to raise only two points. First, I was a member of the Joint Select Committee of both Houses which was responsible for the consolidation of the Income Tax law which eventually emerged as the Income Tax Act, 1952. As is the habit of Joint Select Committees, an enormous amount of work was done on this Act. It has 532 Sections, making it, I think, the biggest Act on record, and 24 Schedules. We regarded a number of the provisions of the then law as spent. I am delighted to learn from my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary that he has discovered some more. We had long arguments about whether some of the provisions were spent, and some of them applied to Scotland.
  I took the responsibility on at least one occasion of inducing my fellow Members to agree that some of the Scottish provisions were spent. More have now been discovered, and I am delighted to hear it. Some of the spent provisions arise from law made since 1952. Therefore, this process of modernisation is a continuous one which I commend.
  My other point concerns something which I came up against some years ago. If one pays tax in advance, it is possible to get a discount. I think it reasonable that there should be a discount on tax paid in advance for various reasons. First, a man may have some money, say, in August, and, looking forward to the following March, or whenever he normally pays his Surtax, for instance, he may prefer to pay in advance what he would have to pay later and thus get a discount. Secondly, Surtax, in particular, is collected on income received two years beforehand.
  A man's circumstances may be very different two years afterwards. For example, there might be a depression, as there was in 1930, when I was caught for income which I had received in 1928.

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  There might also be a Labour Government two years afterwards, in which case the value of money might have gone down. Those are the kind of circumstances that could arise.
  Mr. Houghton: I thought that the hon. Member was going to refer to a number of Ministers who would lose their jobs and, as Surtax payers, might be in difficulties.
  Sir J. Duncan: That is a further point. I agree that somebody who had been a Minister at the £5,000-a-year rate and had little other private income could be in serious difficulty. I see that the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) nods agreement. He has had experience of this. These are problems and it would be of advantage to the taxpayer to be allowed to pay tax in advance.
  I have been trying to find the provision to that effect in the 1952 Act, but I have not succeeded. I should like to know from my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary whether there is a provision in law or whether it is purely an administrative convenience on the part of the Inland Revenue, because I should like it to be put on to the Statute Book in the Bill. I do not think that it is included in the Bill, although I have tried to study the part of it which deals with minor and consequential amendments of the law.
  Unless a person pays the whole of his tax due in advance, he cannot get a deduction. He cannot get a deduction if he pays only in part. This leads to the difficulty that one does not know in August what will be one's total tax liability which may be demanded in January and, perhaps, payable in March, or much later if there is any argument as to the total liability. Therefore, it is not possible to take advantage of the discount which would be available to a person who knew his total tax liability.
  This is a slightly complicated affair, but I hope that my hon. Friend will look into it for the benefit of the taxpayer, for the benefit of his hon. Friend the Economic Secretary and for the benefit of the Inland Revenue, too, because it would be of great advantage to the Inland Revenue, who would get the
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  money in advance. The discount would be, say, ½ per cent. below Bank Rate; the rate of interest is not a matter of great importance. The Treasury would not lose, because it would get the money earlier than otherwise would be the case.
  If my hon. Friend regards this as a good idea I hope that he will not leave it to the whims of the Inland Revenue, but will state definitely that tax paid in advance for, say, one year or two years could be made subject to a discount at the rate of ½ per cent. below Bank Rate.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. George Lawson: The hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) has rather surprised me. Speaking as a representative of a Scottish constituency, he seems to be a little out of character. If we are to be considered according to our national character, i is not very often that we from Scotland wish to pay in advance.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: But for a discount.
  Mr. Lawson: It is not one of the difficulties with which I have been confronted. Usually, the people who come to me do so because they have paid in advance and they have paid more by the P.A.Y.E. method than their current earnings justify, and their claim is that they should get something back. If, however, the idea is a good one, and the Income Tax authorities are prepared to try to operate it, I am sure that we from Scotland would be happy to help them as far as we can.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), I am concerned that as little trouble as possible should be offered to the Inland Revenue. I appreciate that very often its task is difficulty. When I saw how this Measure was being implemented concerning Scotland, and I had the matter drawn to my attention by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East, I thought that, in spite of all that seems to have been in the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), this step was, being taken without the position having been properly studied.
  In taking the decision to add to the responsibilities of the sheriff courts in Scotland, was there really a study of

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  the existing situation concerning those sheriff courts? I would not blame anybody in the Inland Revenue if he did not know of the existing position. In fact, the Secretary of State for Scotland did not know, or does not seem to have known, of the position as it existed in these sheriff courts, because great astonishment was expressed by the Secretary of State only the other week when he discovered how many people were being held in prison in Scotland before trial, for how long they were held in prison and how many of them subsequently were found not to be guilty.
  The point which I put in all seriousness to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is that according to the information that comes to us, those courts are so burdened that there is an ever-lengthening queue of people coming forward for trial. I need only mention an article which appeared in the Guardian on 3rd February. The Guardian does not usually refer much to Scottish affairs, but it had a special article on the question of the queue of people at the sheriff courts. Speaking of the difficulties, it said:
  "It seems that the present situation stems from the system of accused persons appearing before magistrates' courts on charges outside the courts' powers and, once remanded, the accused then became part of the ever-lengthening queue of people awaiting their turn to go before the sheriff."
  When adopting these measures, did the Minister know of this situation in Scotland? This is a matter of concern to us. We want the conduct of matters of this kind in Scotland to be made as easy as possible. We certainly would have no objection to this type of case, for these relatively small sums which the Inland Revenue wishes to recover, being taken to the sheriff courts.
  Has any thought been given, however, to what will happen if the circumstances remain as they are? Or has the Treasury been given advice that radical measures of improvement are about to be carried out in those sheriff courts, which has led the Treasury to believe that since radical improvements are being undertaken it will be possible easily for the work that it is desired to carry out to be taken to these courts and dealt with expeditiously?
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  Unless some assurance has been given, the Treasury should hold its hand and suspend this part of the Bill to ensure that already overburdened courts will not be still more burdened.
  Sir J. Duncan: This is the present provision under Schedule 1 of the 1952 Act.
  Mr. Lawson: The Bill extends the scope after £250. We welcome this provision. We are merely drawing attention to the great difficulties under which some at least of our courts are labouring. Those difficulties are such that the courts appear unable to cope with their work. I am sure that many hon. Members must have had complaints of proceedings before the sheriff courts where witnesses have been kept waiting for a whole day and then sent home because cases have not been reached.
  Far be it from me to add to the difficulties, but I want to ensure that the Inland Revenue does not make things worse. I simply caution it to find out, before it goes ahead with this Bill, whether improvements are being made and whether or not its business can be carried out expeditiously. Given that assurance, I am sure that we would welcome fully these provisions.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: We are told in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to that Bill that its main purpose
  "…is to transfer formal responsibility for the making of Income Tax assessments from the General or Special Commissioners to Inland Revenue officers (in the main, to inspectors of taxes)".
  Of course, that attracted me because, as a member of Sub-Committee C of the Estimates Committee, I spent much time during one Session going into most aspects of the Inland Revenue. I believe that the Financial Secretary was Chairman of the Sub-Committee at the time.
  Mr. Green: I was.
  Mr. Rankin: Then he will recollect the large number of witnesses and will agree, I think, that the work that that Sub-Committee did under his chairmanship was very efficient. I am not merely saying a word for him but for the Sub-Committee as a whole. The Bill gives effect to a recommendation of the Sub-Committee. If the mills of God grind

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  somewhat slowly, evidently they have at least ground with a certain amount of surety in this case. On that account, I welcome the Bill.
  The hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) said that this is modernising and streamlining the methods by which the Government take money from the people and the machinery that enables the taxpayers to get some of it back if they deserve it. The test of the Measure's effectiveness will be how far it makes the individual aware of the complexities that presently surround the infliction of Income Tax.
  Those complexities are very great—so great that many people give up in despair any attempt to fill in their Income Tax forms. Instead, they hand them over to chartered accountants. It is alleged that, by so doing, they achieve the aim which my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) has pointed out is achieved by others—they dodge, or are alleged to dodge, some taxation by the use of high finance. The accountant charges some of the dues which the clients legally owe to the Inland Revenue.
  How much truth is in that, I do not know. I trust the Inland Revenue. Every year, when my statement comes back it contains sections for "overpaid" or "underpaid". How the figures put opposite those words are reached I do not know. But this year, for the first time in many years, opposite the word "overpaid" a very substantial sum was indicated.
  At first, as in former years, I merely put the statement away. Then, on second thoughts, I had another look and realised that for the first time in ten years the Inland Revenue owed me money. I promptly filled in the form and sent it last Thursday. Now I am waiting from day to day for what is owed to me.
  Mr. Bence: We will have a dinner.
  Mr. Rankin: No. There will be no dinner. A Scotsman never squanders money which comes unexpectedly. It will go to something, but not to other people's stomachs.
  As I have said, I put my trust in the Inland Revenue. I depend upon it.
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  In days when I underpaid it was different.
  Mr. Lawson: Surely my hon. Friend is still underpaid.
  Mr. Rankin: I am keeping to the narrow path of order. I do not want to embark on wide digressions that might bring me into conflict with the Chair. In days when I had underpaid tax, I tried to find out why. I was behaving exactly in those days as I am still behaving. I got replies—five-sixths for this fraction and seven-eighths for another, etc. I am sure that all hon. Members have had the same. People who can make head or tail of these replies are in scarce supply. Perhaps I should have gone to a chartered accountant and paid him to find out what it all meant, because I was as wise at the end as to how and why I had underpaid taxation as I was when I started on that perilous adventure. Despite that, I still put my faith in the Inland Revenue officers. Last week it was rewarded. Long may that situation continue. They can reward me next year if they like. I shall not spurn that reward.
  The whole test of the modernisation and streamlining that is incorporated in the Bill will be the degree to which the processes of the Inland Revenue Department are made intelligible to the ordinary individual in the street. They are not very intelligible to Members of Parliament. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire referred to instances which have occurred in the town which he honours by residing in. He talked of people living in homes which apparently could not be easily maintained out of the incomes declared. In the course of the investigation that the Estimates subcommittee conducted we inquired closely into these allegations of misstatements, and from those upon whom we must rely we heard that although some money seemed to leak away the practice of giving misleading information was not widely engaged in.
  That fact was driven home to me last week, when one of my hon. Friends told me that he had received a note from Cardiff saying that he had forgotten to include in his return on income a sum which was so small that it had

  423
  entirely escaped his attention. Cardiff had not overlooked it. There is a little angel watching over us in this Chamber, and he keeps a very close eye upon us. Nothing seems to get past him, not even little sums which we can be forgiven for forgetting about at times.
  Balancing that against what my right hon. Friend said provides another aspect of the wonderful manner in which this powerful organisation works. It is a powerful organisation, which holds very closely in its hands, and keeps a very tight grip upon, that important section of the community which keeps things going by emptying its own pockets. The work of the Sub-Committee fortifies me in saying that the people who get away with it are very few in number.
  I am sorry that the knight from South Angus is running away. I wanted to say a word to him. He suggested that we might pay in advance. It is easy for farmers to suggest that; they are paid in advance. This year the farming community will be receiving about £3,800,000. I forecast that from what I have read. My hon. Friend seems to doubt that figure.
  Mr. Houghton: They are already getting £360 million a year.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. Are not we in danger of going beyond the scope of the Bill?
  Mr. Rankin: It is not for me to invite the Chair to be patient with me, but I do ask for a little patience, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. My remarks will be very pertinent. I should have said that an increase of about £3,800,000 is expected for the farmers. It is easy enough for them to talk about paying in advance. The great mass of our people could not pay in advance simply because the ability to pay in advance means the existence of security of employment, which is totally lacking under this Government, especially in Scotland. Few people working in Scottish engineering shops and shipbuilding yards can depend on still being in work at the end of the week. There is no security of employment, and if there is to be payment in advance there has to be such security. The fact that unemployment still lingers round about the 100,000 mark is proof of what I say.
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  I support all that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) and my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson) said about the functions of the office of sheriff-substitute. Everybody in Glasgow knows that the courts over which sheriff-substitutes preside are overwhelmed with work. It may be true that this has been part and parcel of the situation since 1952, but the work done in sheriff courts today is much greater than was the case in that year. We were talking about streamlining. It might have been possible to streamline that apparatus in the Bill.
  It would be helpful if the Financial Secretary could give us some idea of the amount of work that is presently thrown on to the sheriff-substitute in the execution of his duty. It might not be a great deal; it might be much more than we imagine. If it has any significance we ought to draw attention to the fact that more work is being placed on the shoulders of these officers, under the Bill, than presently exists, and that it is being put on to him at a time when he already has more work to do than he can accomplish within reasonable limits. I hope that the Financial Secretary will give us more information on this part of the Bill.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: I wish to ask a question about subsections (4) and (6) of Clause 1. I may be wrong, but I understand that a sheriff can practise at the Bar outside his sheriffdom. A sheriff who becomes, ex officio, a general commissioner could practise at the Bar outside his sheriffdom while the commissioner of a division. The division may be wholly or partly within his sheriffdom. If part of the division is outside the sheriffdom the sheriff could act as a lawyer on behalf of a taxpayer or of the Inland Revenue in that area. He could be an assessor or an advocate for or against in that part of his division outside the sheriffdom.
  It seems to me that the position is made worse by the provisions of subsection (6). The Secretary of State for Scotland may, by order, create a new division or abolish an existing division. A situation in which a division of which a sheriff was a commissioner was wholly within his sheriffdom could be altered, and the division extended outside the

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  area of the sheriffdom. It might include a tremendous industrial area in which the sheriff would be permitted to practise at the Bar. Subsections (4) and (6) seem dangerous. I consider that they are wrongly drawn and could result in a frightful situation being created. It seems contrary to the general practice in our society.
  I agree wholeheartedly with the points which were made by my hon. Friends about the pressure which is being put on sheriffs by reason of the extra work which they will have to do. I understand that the sheriff substitute is a permanent appointment because ex officio he is a commissioner but the sheriff's appointment is part-time because he practices at the Bar. I shall wait hopefully—to use the term which Robert Louis Stevenson used—for a Law Officer to attend this debate and answer my question. I wish to be satisfied that I have interpreted the provisions in the Bill correctly. If I have, I hope that there will be an Amendment designed to change the situation.
  5.55 p.m.
  Mr. Green: With the leave of the House, I will try to answer some of the points which have been raised.
  I understand that the work of the sheriff as a Commissioner is small in amount and will not increase. There is remarkably little prospect of this work growing in volume at all. I think that answers most of the points that falls to me to answer because, like other hon. Members who have spoken about the situation in Scotland, I have to be careful to keep within the rules of order.
  Mr. Willis: Will the hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Scottish Minister to the points which have been raised in order that they can be conveyed to the Committee at present considering the operations of sheriff courts?
  Mr. Green: I do not think that is a matter for me. But, of course, I shall be happy to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to what has been said—
  Mr. Lawson Mr. Lawson rose—
  Mr. Green:—perhaps I can anticipate what the hon. Member proposes to say—
  Mr. Lawson: No. I wish to refer precisely to the point made by the hon. Gentleman that the work of the sheriff is not likely to be great. But there are courts where there are a long queue of cases to be dealt with and some may take a long time to reach unless there is to be queue jumping. I do not think the Treasury would wish to do that. If the courts are so overburdened, as would appear to be the case, it seems that sheriffs may be asked to do work which they could not reasonably be expected to do.
  Mr. Green: The hon. Member will, of course, have noticed the wording of Clause 8(4)
  "in Scotland subsection (1) of this section shall not apply, but where the amount of income tax for the time being due and payable under any assessment does not exceed two hundred and fifty pounds the tax may, without prejudice to any other remedy, be sued for…"
  etc. One does not propose an instrument which is not available for use. I think that is the short answer to the hon. Gentleman.
  The determination of points made about Scotland are outside my responsibility, but, of course, the Secretary of State for Scotland will note them. He will read the OFFICIAL REPORT of this debate. I have answered the point which falls to me to answer. I was asked how much more work was expected to all on the sheriffs, and my information is that it will be a very small amount.
  I trust that the point raised by the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire East (Mr. Bence) is not a material one. But I will, of course, look at it. The sheriff is an ex officio general commissioner. We have suggested the sheriff as an ex officio commissioner because there will be occasions when his personal and legal experience will be valuable.
  One or two of the other points regarding Scotland would be better discussed in Committee, and I am fortified in that opinion because an hon. Member opposite has described the subsection as being very good. My hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) referred to the prepayment of tax and the receipt of some discount. This Bill is not concerned with any changes in tax charged, either up or down. Certainly no hon. Member would expect that at this time

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  of the year I would start to throw out hints about any such changes. But I can draw the attention of my hon. Friend to the fact that there are such things as tax reserve certificates on which tax-free interest is paid.
  Sir J. Duncan: In the latter part of his speech, my hon. Friend referred to consequential amendments which have been made to the law. I want my hon. Friend to look at whether one can be added to meet the important point which I made.
  Mr. Green: I cannot include anything which affects revenue. There is already in existence means for rewarding those why pay tax in advance.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Pounder) raised one or two specifically Northern Ireland points. The best assurance that I can give him is that we had very prolonged and thorough discussions, as might be expected, both with the Government of Northern Ireland and professional bodies over there. Clauses 14 and 15 are the product of those discussions. I hope that when my hon. Friend thinks about it he will accept that assurance.
  On the specific point he raised about right of appeal, I think Clause 15 (4) answers the question. That subsection says:
  "Within thirty days after the determination by the county court of proceedings brought under this section any party to the proceedings may require the court to state a case on a point of law for the opinion of the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland."
  There is an appeal on a point of law. That was what my hon. Friend wanted to know.
  The right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) wanted to know whether we thought the staff of the Inspectorate was adequate. We think it is. I am sure the right hon. Member would agree that to have extra inspectors, so to speak, merely in order to have extra numbers would not be sensible.
  Mr. Houghton: Will the hon. Gentleman kindly take it from me that there is not the remotest chance of the Inland Revenue ever having more inspectors for the sake of having more inspectors?
  Mr. Green: The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), who has been so extremely agreeable during the whole debate, need not say that, because I was about to state exactly that myself. We are in such complete agreement that I do not think we need pretend to be in any contest about it. The point is to have an adequate staff. We are satisfied that to have anything else would be costly, cumbersome and wasteful. If we had too few it would be costly, and if we had too many it would be cumbersome and wasteful.
  Mr. Woodburn: The point I was trying to make was that if the staff was not adequate—and I understand that there is always a back-log and pressure on the staff—it is a good investment, not a cost to the nation, to have the job done properly, because this is one Department in which the Government can earn more income.
  Mr. Green: I entirely agree that the proof of the pudding is in the administrative cost. I do not think the right hon. Member and I are in disagreement. We note the point he has made and we shall seek to get this adequately serviced.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Hopkins) asked whether decentralisation of Surtax is being seriously considered. The answer is, "Yes, it is". I repeat that an official decision on this should be taken on strictly administrative grounds. He can be absolutely assured that this point is being seriously considered and until a decision is taken it will go on being very actively and seriously considered.
  In answer to the other point my hon. Friend made, the Board of Inland Revenue is as anxious as anyone to get its forms as simple, accurate and clear as possible. It has a genuine interest which matches the taxpayers' interest in terms of getting information in the simplest, clearest form possible, because the clearer and simpler the forms can be the less trouble there is for inspectors and other members of the Inland Revenue to explain and to waste their time and everyone's time. This is constantly being looked at. The only point about which one has to be careful, as I am sure my hon. Friend on reflection

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  will agree, is that Income Tax is governed by law and it has to be very precisely stated.
  Quite often, there is a conflict between what one might term layman's language and the necessary legal definitions of what has to be done and what will stand up in a court of law and court of appeal if a case goes to appeal. That is the main difficulty in making in laymen's terms all forms as simple as we would desire them to be. Nevertheless, great efforts are being made to simplify the forms, I think with some success. Obviously it is of interest to the Inland Revenue to carry the process forward as far and as fast as can be done. That is in the general interest of the Board as well as of the taxpayer, so it is very unlikely that anyone will have to wait forty-three years for the burden of proof.
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Sowerby for the welcome he has given to the Bill and for the tribute he paid to the work done by the Inland Revenue. The Inland Revenue certainly deserves that tribute. He has had a lifelong interest in this subject, and I listened with great fascination to his description of its history. It was extremely worth while to have it delivered and to put it on the record. It was thoroughly interesting, and at times amusing. I am glad to know that the B.B.C. continues to have the good sense to employ his knowledge and talents on the programme he mentioned. I extend to him my good wishes that he can go on doing that work for many years.
  As he will know, the Board of Inland Revenue is very keen to get this Bill. It has wanted it for some time and I am sure I am speaking for the Board when I say that its members will be grateful to the House today for the warm welcome so far given to the Bill and for the cooperative way in which the debate has been conducted. I hope the House may now be willing to give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  INCOME TAX MANAGEMENT BILL

    INCOME TAX MANAGEMENT [MONEY]
    [Queen's Recommendation signified]
    Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).
    [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
    Resolved,
    That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to General Commissioners for the purposes of the income tax and their clerks and officers of Inland Reveille and to transfer from the General or other Commissioners to officers of Inland Revenue the powers of assessing income tax and related functions it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament—

    (a) of payments to General Commissioners by way of travelling allowance or subsistence allowance, and

    (b) of pensions or gratuities to or in respect of any full-time clerk to any body of General Commissioners.—[Mr. Green.]

    Resolution to be reported.
    Report to be received Tomorrow.

    WAYS AND MEANS
    Considered in Committee.
    [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

    WAYS AND MEANS

      INCOME TAX MANAGEMENT (INCIDENTAL CHARGES)
      Resolved,
      That any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to General Commissioners for the Purposes of the income tax and their clerks and officers of Inland Revenue and to transfer from the General or other Commissioners to officers of Inland Revenue the powers of assessing income tax and related functions may include provisions imposing incidental charges to income tax for any year.—[Mr. Green.]
      Resolution to be reported.
      Report to be received Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  WAR DAMAGE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  6.10 p.m.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Maurice Macmillan): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill is, I hope, non-controversial although somewhat technical. Its only object is to wind up the scheme of compensation for war damage which was introduced during the Second World War. It also transfers most of the remaining administrative responsibilities for this scheme to the Inland Revenue Department in order to effect administrative economies.
  In view of the work done by the War Damage Commission, and to set the Bill in its proper place, it is only right for me to say a short word about the original war damage scheme and the Commission's work. The war damage compensation scheme was one of the success stories of the war and the immediate post-war period. In October, 1940, when Britain stood virtually alone and the Battle of Britain was being fought in the air, the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) announced that a comprehensive war damage scheme would be inaugurated at once.
  As a result, in December, 1940, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the late Sir Kingsley Wood, introduced the Bill which became the War Damage Act, 1941. As Sir Kingsley Wood said at the time—as reported in HANSARD, 17th December, 1940; Vol. 367, c. 1125—the Bill was
  "an instrument of justice and an Act of social solidarity"
  spreading the burden of the war damage over the whole community. Incidentally, it reflected confidence in ultimate victory.
  The War Damage Commission, under the able and energetic leadership of its first chairman, Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve—now Lord Silsoe set about its formidable task—and it was quite a task—with a will. Arrangements were made to deal with the various notifications of damage which came flowing in. There were about 4 million claims in respect of about 3½ million proper-
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  ties altogether. Sixteen regional offices were set up and technical staff in local offices, supplemented at the peak period by the use of private professional firms, assessed the extent of war damage and classified properties according to whether payment could be made for rebuilding or repair—which was a cost-of-work payment—or whether compensation should be paid for a total loss—which was a value payment. In due course the technical staff dealt with the specifications which were put in for repair work and assessed the proper cost of making good war damage.
  We should reflect that under Part I of the Act, dealing with damage to property, the Commission paid over 4 million claims in respect of 3½ million separate properties, and the total so far paid approaches £1,300 million. Against this, £200 million was collected by the Inland Revenue Department for 1941–46 in the form of war damage contributions from property owners.
  I should say a word about Part II of the War Damage Act, which dealt with goods and chattels. Part I dealt with properties in two ways, either value payments or cost-of-works payments. Part II of the Act dealt with goods and chattels, which were covered under two insurance schemes administered by the Board of Trade, one for business chattels and one for private chattels. On these alone large sums were paid out. About £117 million has been paid out in claims on private chattels. There are virtually no claims outstanding under this Part of the Act, with the possible exception of one or two arising from the erroneous inclusion of chattels in property.
  This will give some measure of the work which has been done by the War Damage Commission and the compensation paid under the war damage scheme. But the House will agree that in 1964 it is high time that this scheme was wound up. The vast majority of the cases of war damage have already been disposed of, but there is a residue, and the outstanding liability—it is difficult to be precise—is estimated at about £20 million, mainly comprising cases in which a cost-of-works payment will be due if and when the damage is made good.

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  By and large the delays have been caused by waiting for the convenience of owners through difficulties of site development, and so on. The trouble is that unless action is taken to impose a time limit there is the possibility that such cases will drag on indefinitely, and meanwhile it is becoming harder and harder to distinguish between war damage and the ordinary dilapidation, and the provision of administrative machinery to deal with these cases is becoming increasingly wasteful.
  For these reasons, in August, 1961, the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, now my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, announced in reply to a Question that the Government intended to wind up the war damage scheme and to transfer the staff and responsibilities of the War Damage Commission to the Inland Revenue. Hon. Members who wish to look this up will find it in HANSARD, Vol. 645, c. 207. The details of the proposal were published in a White Paper, Cmnd. 1583, in December, 1961.
  I do not want to weary the House with the full details of the scheme in the White Paper, because it is not precisely the scheme put forward in the Bill. Broadly speaking, the scheme outlined in the White Paper provided for the registration within a limited period of outstanding claims in respect of damage to land and buildings. In general, compensation would take the form of a value payment—that is to say, a payment based on the depreciation in value of the property—unless it could be shown that the damage could and would be made good within four years from the commencement of the scheme, subject to a possible extension for a few cases of exceptional magnitude, in which case the damage, when made good, would qualify for a cost-of-works payment.
  At that time the outstanding liability for war damage compensation was put at about £40 million, but since then good progress has been made in reducing the volume of outstanding work, largely due to the announcement of the decision to wind up the war damage compensation scheme, which, I think, had something to do with persuading people to get on with the job.
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  The estimated outstanding liability is now down to about £20 It is possible to break this figure down in very rough terms. I would not like the House to think that I am giving a precise estimate, because these things are not easy to quantify exactly. In round figures this amount comprises about £1 million for dwelling houses, about £2 million for churches, about £5½ million for local authority and public buildings—libraries, public baths, and so on, of which £1½ million represents the claims in respect of County Hall and the Guildhall—and about £9 million for commercial property—such as public houses, hotels, offices and shops. In addition to this £17½ million, an estimate of £2½ million is made for contingencies and for the remaining few claims that might come forward on the Board of Trade side, the Part II claims on chattels, bringing the total probable liability to about £20 million.
  During the last two years the outstanding liabilities for war compensation have been about halved. It is because of this reduction that we are putting forward in the Bill a simplified version of the scheme originally set out in the White Paper. The Bill proposes to dispense with the requirement of registration of claims. It simply provides that claims for payment must be presented within specified time limits.
  The most important time limit is that contained in Clause 1. This provides that a claimant must make good war damage and claim a cost of works payment, or, alternatively, apply for a value payment for damage not made good, within a period of four years from the commencement of the Measure, when enacted, on 1st October, 1964. Clause 1(5) and Clauses 4 and 6 ensure that the time limit also applies to claims for other forms of war damage compensation payments, including the payments for the cost of clearing war damaged sites and the payments under the special arrangement for churches.
  All claims in respect of the cost of temporary repairs to war damage should have been made a long time ago, and Clause 3 puls an end to any dormant claims of that sort as from the commencement of the Bill when enacted on 1st October, 1964. So the time limits in the Bill, basically four years from

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  the proposed commencement of the Measure, when enacted, on 1st October, 1964, are continued in Clause 1; and Clauses 4 and 6 extend them to the rather smaller compensation payments.
  In Clause 7 a final time limit is laid down, which is ten years after the commencement of the Measure when enacted. Thus a time limit is laid down for the completion of all cases. Claims which have not been brought to a conclusion by then will be extinguished unless—the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) will realise that this is most improbable—the Inland Revenue has itself been responsible for the delay.
  The concentration of most of the remaining war damage work into the next four or five years as a result of the Bill will itself produce administrative economies and so will the rationalisation of the distribution of the remaining work between the Government Departments which the Bill brings about.
  Under Clause 2 the functions of the War Damage Commission are transferred to the Board of Inland Revenue. The Revenue has been associated with this work in the past through its Valuation Office, and progress has already been made towards the integration of the Inland Revenue and the War Damage Commission, both of which are under the chairmanship of Sir Alexander Johnston. The Revenue will take over the staff, as well as the functions, of the War Damage Commission, so there will be continuity of knowledge and experience. It will thus be seen that the transfer proposed in Clause 2 will go through with the utmost smoothness.
  Clause 2 also transfers to the Inland Revenue the remaining functions of the Board of Trade in relation to the payment of compensation for war damage to business and private chattels. This work has virtually come to an end, except for a few cases which the War Damage Commission already handles as agent for the Board of Trade where a new claim in relation to chattels has arisen because the claimant has mistakenly regarded the chattels as being part of the land or buildings for the purposes of war damage compensation.
  There is one small section of war damage work which will not be taken
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  over by the Inland Revenue. That is the compensation payable under the special arrangements for highways. This is covered in Clause 5, which provides that the work shall be carried out by the Minister of Transport in England and Wales and by the Secretary of State in Scotland. They are already closely associated with these arrangements.
  Clause 8 extinguishes rights to payment of moneys out of the War Damage (Mutual Insurance Fund Unclaimed Balances) Account, which consists of moneys which have remained unclaimed since 1941.
  I do not think that the other provisions of the Bill call for special comment now. They are consequential upon those main provisions and can more suitably be dealt with at a later stage.
  A word is necessary about damage from any new incidents arising out of the past war which may occur in the future. Damage to land and property still occurs from time to time from the disposal of unexploded bombs and washed-up mines surviving from the last war. This damage has been very small in recent years. At present, it is dealt with under the War Damage Act, 1943, but the power to make payments under that Act is limited by the Bill to damage occurring before 1st October, 1964—that is, the vesting date of the Bill when enacted.
  Any claims arising from damage which occurs after that will be dealt with by the War Office on the same basis as it deals with claims for damage to property arising from its training activities. Most of these payments are based on the cost of making good the damage. It is only exceptionally, where there is a great deal of damage and repair is uneconomic, that payment is limited to the depreciation in value.
  I hope that the House will come to the conclusion that this is a useful Bill. It will bring to an end the existence of a body which has done useful and great work in the past. The proportion of work outstanding, as the figures I have quoted show, is remarkably small. I hope that the administrative economies and changes which the Bill introduces and the time limits it places on the payment of compensation will be considered reasonable. As the outstanding claims have been halved in the last two years,

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  I think that the House will agree that a period of four years is reasonable and adequate in which to settle the final claims.
  I hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
  6.30 p.m.
  Sir Frank Soskice: This seems to be a workmanlike and sensible Bill. The position can be gauged in one sense by contrasting the total sum paid out—I understand it to be about £1,300 million—with the claims outstanding, amounting, I understand, to about £20 million. One can further reinforce that consideration by remembering that the number of claims now outstanding is only half the number outstanding in August, 1961.
  It is clear, therefore, that this gigantic and rather grim relic of the wartime period is now coming to a close and that, with a word of tribute and gratitude to the War Damage Commission and the excellent work it has done, we can all be glad to say "Goodbye" to this memory of the destruction and havoc wrought by the war in our country. It is high time that we should think of bringing the whole of this unhappy memory to an end. The Bill is adequately designed for this purpose, although there are a few comments I would like to make and questions I would like to pose.
  The total amount of outstanding claims is about £20 million, but I do not know how many individual claims that figure represents. It may be difficult for the Financial Secretary to answer this and if he cannot give me an answer now I will understand. I ask this question because the work of the War Damage Commission is being transferred to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. I understand that they are taking over the former staff of the War Damage Commission, including the valuation department which, I suppose, will supplement the Valuation Office which at present operates within the framework of the Inland Revenue.
  Had we not been told that, the question would have presented itself whether an undue burden was not going to be placed on the Commissioners if they have to deal with a large number of individual claims, aggregating in all to
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  about £20 million, in addition to the heavy burden they already carry. Before I heard the Minister's remarks it had been my intention to ask how this matter would be dealt with. I wondered whether there would be the necessary expert advice, either within the present framework or whether the Commissioners would need to resort to outside sources. Apparently they will have adequate resources within the framework of the existing staff to obtain the necessary expert opinion about whether a claim is allowable and the amount at which it should be allowed.
  I suppose that a prominent feature of the outstanding claims and the reason in many cases why they have been delayed for so long is that buildings may, after many years, show weakness or strain which expert advice can connect with a shock received from war damage. It is, I understand, a common feature of these claims that a building can be severely shaken during the war but that the damage is not discernible for some years, when the building begins to subside or show indications of weakness or strain.
  Expert opinion can establish clearly that such damage was derived from injury not known at the time but caused to the structure by concussion of falling bombs. Wren that situation arises no doubt the ground of claim may not be known for many years; and the older the building gets the more serious is the damage when it ultimately emerges. I apprehend that that is the kind of situation in which these claims have been for so long delayed, up to 19 years after the war.
  I was somewhat surprised at the Minister's comments about the contrast in respect of outstanding claims for private dwellings, amounting to about £1 million, and the amount estimated to be outstanding for commercial property namely, £9 million. I do not know why there should be that contrast. One would have thought that those who use commercial property would be as alive to the claims they may have as those who occupy private dwellings. Is the reason because the total aggregate of damage done to commercial property was much in excess of that done to private dwellings? That may be the reason, but it would be difficult to suppose that the ratio is nine to one, as it appears to be in terms of the outstand

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  ing claims. I understand that the claims in respect of chattels have almost entirely dried up. There are few outstanding and that can be said to be an aspect of war damage which has already, by the process of time, finally been brought to a close.
  I would like to know how much is in the account described in Clause 8 as the "unclaimed balances account". The Minister said that that related to claims which have not been pursued since 1941. I suppose that many unfortunate people who might have had claims either perished during the war or have since died and that their descendants or heirs, or other personal representatives, cannot now be ascertained. Thus a sum of money slumbers in this unclaimed balances account. How much is it?
  We should all be anxious not accidentally to put an end to a claim which is really a live one—that we do not, by the stroke of a pen in an Act, deprive some one of a claim which, had he known it existed, he would be only too glad to assert. I hope that adequate steps have been or will be taken to make known the existence of these claims. There may be children or grandchildren who would be glad to find that they were entitled to receive a few hundred pounds, which might be a relief to them in difficult circumstances. It would be in the public interest, and a measure of elementary justice, to see that the widest publicity is given to the existence of claims which have not been preferred. We should ensure that legitimate claims are not merely extinguished.
  Are the amounts in the unclaimed balances account small or large ones? Is the sort of problem in Clause 8 one of claims of wide variety, with several claims worth many thousands of pounds, or is it a problem of claims by small people in respect of many dwelling houses concerning sums of £50, £100 or £200? If so, it is very important that a great effort should be made to seek the identity of the potential claimants so that what is rightfully theirs can be paid to them.
  Those are the general comments that I wished to make. It is surprising in a sense that not less than £5½ million is estimated to be the amount of the outstanding claims in respect of public
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  buildings. One would have thought that public authorities would not only have been alive to the possibility of obtaining reimbursement for damage but would have had at their disposal the means necessary to prefer the claims and the necessary advice and legal assistance to make certain that claims due in respect of public buildings—claims, therefore, due to the public—were adequately and promptly preferred.
  No doubt there is a very good reason for that. It may be that the £5½ million is attributable to damage which has only barely begun to manifest itself. I should like to know the basis on which the figure is estimated. If it can be said that an estimated amount of £5½ million is outstanding, there must be some basis on which that figure has been arrived at. In other words, in some way damage approximating to that amount must have made its presence known. The Minister stated that a large amount of the claims was attributable to the fact that cost of works payments had not yet been made. Therefore, the figure in respect of public buildings must be attributable more to the cost of works payments side than the value side. Perhaps we could have some more explanation of how that happens to be the case.
  This is a necessary and sensible Bill. Its provisions seem to be businesslike and likely to achieve the desired end. When the whole matter has been adequately and properly wound up, we shall all be glad to forget the existence of war damage legislation and hope that the occasion for it will never recur.
  6.42 p.m.
  Dr. Horace King: I am sure that the whole House will profoundly agree with the last remark of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice). I should like to say how much I appreciate the fact that the Economic Secretary opened his speech in the way he did rather than contenting himself with a mere formal recital of the contents of the Bill. He referred to the original War Damage Act, and paid tributes to which I hope to refer later.
  My right hon. and learned Friend has said that this is an unhappy memory that we are recalling tonight. It is also a very proud memory. One might be

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  pardoned for quoting Milton and saying:
  "Nothing is here for tears…".
  We are looking back for a moment on a very significant aspect of the last war.
  I want, first, to take the opportunity provided by the Bill of expressing the thanks of Southampton, which was a great town until yesterday and today is a great city, for all the good that has been done to it and the other blitzed cities of England by the War Damage Act, 1943. To me, this debate has something of a touch of nostalgia. My maiden speech was a plea for the blitzed cities which had borne the brunt of the Second World War. We had some help, but not enough, we thought then, and still feel, from post-war Labour Governments as well as post-war Conservative Governments.
  The cities which had been destroyed, or half destroyed, were battling against the problems of reconstruction, problems of reconstruction common to all other places as well as ours but made much more severe by their war losses, including the loss of thousands of houses. In Southampton, a quarter of our schools were damaged and one-third of our docks and factories, and we suffered the destruction of hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of property and lost thousands of pounds of rateable value.
  It is interesting that it should have been the Economic Secretary who opened the debate. I remember taking to his father, when he was the Minister of Housing and Local Government, a deputation of Parliamentarians from blitzed cities and having really sympathetic and considerate treatment from the former Prime Minister, even if we did not get all we asked for.
  What saved Southampton citizens, as distinct from Southampton city, was that individual citizens in the blitzed cities were covered by the War Damage Act. Under that Act, by a piece of specific national insurance, Britain as a nation underwrote the grievous loss sustained by individuals or businesses, and even communities when churches, houses and schools were damaged and destroyed. Every British citizen paid his insurance premium, and the lucky people were those who did not have to cash the
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  policy at the end. I am glad that the Economic Secretary pointed out that embarking on this insurance scheme in 1943 was a declaration of faith that Britain would survive the war.
  Claims were handled fairly and efficiently, and most, but not all, of the claimants also claimed fairly. Those who had lost their homes got, wherever possible, not a cash value for their house, but a replacement. Those who suffered severe damage had the damage made good. Those who lost their belongings were compensated for the loss. It is worth remembering, however, that very few of the citizens who lost their homes really got back what they had lost.
  It is also worth recalling, if only for a moment, the courage and devotion of those who stuck it out in the London blitz, the Coventry blitz and the Southampton blitz—the housewives as well as the factory workers; the children of Britain; the 1 million evacuees; the children who came home from evacuation because the blitz happened much later than we thought; the teaching of children under terrible conditions in the blitzed cities; the civilian courage which equalled the courage of men in the fighting line. No War Damage Act could hope to compensate for. That courage and that grim loss of life.
  I hope that it will not be considered a constituency speech if I recall my own city, which was blitzed to bits and yet was the foal point through which more than 2 million Americans passed on their way to Europe; with its civic and industrial life continuing right through the war, and for 10 years after it—and only those who lived in our blitzed cities after the war can know how depressing it was to live in them then. It is not too much to say that during all that time the sympathetic treatment of the War Damage Commission was like a beacon light to the citizens of our blitzed towns and cities. Tonight, we are winding up what I regard as a great national, humane and socially just enterprise.
  One of the distressing features of war damage was that very often it did not reveal itself until years after the war. It was very difficult for blitzed persons to claim correctly, and it was difficult for surveyors to estimate correctly. All the estimation and the claiming, or much of it, was done under war conditions, in the

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  earlier stages. I know from the experience of many of my friends in the blitzed cities that very often a house which, apart from a few broken windows or shattered roofs, looked all right, years later would reveal severe structural defects caused by the shaking it had had during the war which were not evident at the time. In the first impact of disaster, many people were happy enough to have just a home or a shelter over their heads or first-aid repairs, and, in spite of all that the Government did to make the work of the Commission widely known, they did not claim all that they were entitled to.
  Therefore, hon. Members who, like myself, have been representing the blitzed areas have been presenting year by year and month by month to the War Damage Commission late claims. In my own city the latest was last year, in respect of the famous Church of St. Mary—the church of the Bells of St. Mary—which sustained very grave damage which had escaped notice until about three or four years ago.
  I pay tribute to the War Damage Commissioners for the way in which they handled the monumental first task that we gave them of the distribution of more than £1,000 million and also for the very careful and sympathetic consideration that they have given to all the tricky cases which hon. Members have put to them in later years.
  I realise how difficult it must have been to separate the wheat from the chaff; to separate those who in genuine ignorance failed to claim their entitlement, those who later genuinely discovered damage of which they were unaware in 1945 or 1946. from those merely trying to scrounge from the insurance fund every penny they could get, including money to which they were not entitled. I am sure that those connected with St. Mary's Church. Southampton, would particularly wish me to thank the War Damage Commissioners for their very sympathetic treatment of this latest claim, possibly the last that will be made from Southampton.
  The time limits provided in the Bill are reasonable, and the Bill itself is drafted in the fair and sympathetic way that has marked the whole of this episode in the life of our nation. It is, perhaps, wise
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  now to wind up the Commission, and to transfer its functions to the Inland Revenue and the Board of Trade, as this Measure does, but I hope that, as we wind up the Commission, the whole House will echo the tribute paid by the Economic Secretary—a tribute that I have tried to underline—to successive chairmen of the Commission, to the great chairman who started it, Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve, and to the Commission's staff, for a piece of work well done.
  All those connected with the Commission have had a very complex, a very difficult and very thankless task. They have acquitted themselves well. I am sure that I speak for all the members of the old non-party blitz committee, consisting of hon. Members fighting for the blitzed cities, when I say how much we have appreciated the courteous, sympathetic and just way in which all our requests were treated.
  I would, finally, underline what my right hon. and learned Friend has said. In this Bill we enact that after four years no further claims can be made, and I hope that as a result of this debate the date of the time limits which we are fixing will become widely known throughout the country and that the Government will see that, as far as is humanly possible, no citizen is deprived through ignorance of what is his due.
  6.53 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: I want to reinforce the final words of my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King). I represent the Burgh of Clydebank, which was badly bitzed in 1941. For the first two or three years after I first came to this House in 1951 it was my regular function, week after week, to support claims to the War Damage Commission for damage done in that burgh. Many of the domestic claims were very serious, some heartrending, but I always felt that some of the most unfortunate claims were those made on behalf of churches used by small congregations, who very often found it very difficult to claim enough to replace their buildings.
  This is the second time today that the House has been debating the Second Reading of a Bill in which Scotland has an interest, in which the Secretary

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  of State for Scotland has an important part to play, and his Department in Edinburgh is involved, but no Scottish Minister has been present to answer questions that Scottish hon. Members might wish to put. It is, perhaps, fortunate that I have no purely Scottish question to ask.
  I support everything that has been said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Itchen. Those of us who lived and worked in bombed cities during and after the war can wholeheartedly support the Economic Secretary when he says that this insurance scheme was a great act of faith in Britain's ultimate success. It was drilled into me as a boy that saving, the act of preparing for the future, was not just a speculative act., or one taken for easy or quick gain, but an act of faith in oneself and in the society in which one lived.
  The war damage scheme was a great act of faith which gave a great deal of confidence to people, and lifted their morale in those difficult times. It is unfortunate that only now, 19 years after the end of the war, are we able to wind up this tremendous enterprise of collective compensation of people for their individual losses. Nevertheless, it is an example of what a well-organised community with faith in itself can do.
  We have, with reasonable equity and justice, repaired the material losses suffered by a large section of the community, and it is a wonderful achievement. Unfortunately, there are some losses that we can never repair, but it is a great compliment to the nation that we can now rest assured that, in the main, we have replaced for individuals the material things lost as a result of enemy action.
  Let us hope that we never have to reintroduce a war damage insurance scheme again, though we know that, if we had to, our people could again carry it through with success.
  6.58 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Alan Green): I must, first, express my thanks, and those of the War Damage Commission, for the way in which the Bill has been received, and for the extremely well-earned and agreeable
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  phrases used about the work of the Commission.
  When the right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) asked how many claims remained outstanding he was good enough to say that if I could not answer him he could understand why. However, I understand that the total number of claims outstanding is about 4,500. What I cannot do is to relate, so to speak, the size to the claims. I can do that in one case, which I shall use later to illustrate another point.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman also asked whether the Inland Revenue Department will have adequate staff and, with his usual perspicacity, was able almost to answer his own question. The Inland Revenue will have adequate staff because it will take on the necessary numbers from the Commission itself. It will continue to have what it most certainly needs—and needs, perhaps, more now in the closing stage than at the opening—an I that is really expert guidance, so that good and proper distinction can be made between what is due to old age and what is traceable to war damage. That distinction gets progressively more difficult to make, and is one of the most substantial reasons for this Bill. It will continue to have precisely the same form of expert advice that the Commission has received up to date. I believe that this is a perfectly satisfactory and good arrangement.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman drew attention, quite correctly, to the difference between the remaining claims on houses and the remaining claims on commercial premises. There is a very good reason for this. A good many of the commercial premises, for example, were public houses. It by no means follows that it is desirable that a badly damaged public house should be rebuilt. Some other decision may ultimately be taken about its fate. This is really the reason why those claims hung fire longer than the claims on houses. Much the same consideration goes to claims lodged on behalf of public authorities.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Is it not a fact that there is still a very large stock of public houses held in abeyance under the licensing planning system? If so, will the Bill have any effect on that?
  Mr. Green: It will not have any effect on that system. The plain point that planning permission would be required under certain circumstances is a further reason why some of these claims hold on for longer than others. All the claims are known. This is the main point. There is no real dispute about their existence. All that we are seeking now is to secure a point in time, not too far removed, at which they will be determined. I cannot see any special grounds for dispute.
  I said that I would give one illustration of the public authority case. The Guildhall and County Hall, I understand, are responsible for about £1½ million, which goes a long way to explaining the apparent imbalance between outstanding claims on different classes of property.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman made a good point about the unclaimed balances account. The total, I understand, is about £6,000. I also understand—I should like to check this—that no claim has been made since 1946. This does not invalidate the point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman made. I do not believe that I can carry what he said further, except to say that I entirely accept the propriety of his observations about this, and that we must do our level best to make sure that there is nothing unclaimed through ignorance, for example, which is something no one would want to have on his conscience. Perhaps the later stages of the Bill will permit a further examination of this point. It is not a very large one in terms of money, but I could not agree more that in terms of principle it is very important.
  I trust that covers the points which the right hon. and learned Gentleman raised as well as I can deal with them at the moment. I cannot do better than end my own short contribution to this debate by saying how much I appreciate what was said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King). He
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  put the matter very well indeed. It was a very richly deserved tribute to the people of this country as well as to the War Damage Commission. I believe that the words he used will give all the more pleasure because they have been so well earned. I am sure that they were proper observations to make as we start the final legal process of winding up what was a very large, a very rewarding and a very inspiring operation in this country.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. R. W. Elliott.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  WAR DAMAGE BILL

    WAR DAMAGE [MONEY]
    [Queen's Recommendation signified]
    Considered in Committee under Standing Order No, 88 (Money Committees).
    [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
    Resolved,
    That, for the purpposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for expediting the completion of payments under the War Damage Act 1943, the War Damage (Public Utility Undertakings, etc.) Act 1949 and the War Damage (Clearance Payments) Act 1960; to dissolve the War Damage Commission and transfer to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, or, in the case of payments under section 71 of the said Act of 1943, to the Minister of Transport or the Secretary of State, the functions of the War Damage Commission and any function which remain to be performed under those Acts by the Board of Trade; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise—

    (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any sums required for paying remuneration or allowances to War Damage Reviewing Commissioners appointed under the said Act of the present Session; and

    (b) the payment into the Exchequer of Damage (Mutual Insurance Funds Un-moneys standing to the credit of the War claimed Balances) Account.—[Mr. Green.]

    Resolution to be reported.
    Report to be received Tomorrow.

  POST OFFICE (HOUSEHOLD DELIVERY SERVICE)
  7.7 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Mason: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Inland Post Regulations 1963 (S.I., 1963, No. 2137), dated 30th December 1963, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th January, be annulled.
  I do not intend to make a long speech. The question of the Household Delivery Service has been ventilated once before in the House, but in view of feeling among householders and postmen and of the way in which the service will be used, it is absolutely essential that we should express in the House our reasons for thinking that Regulation 25, which is embodied in the 1963 Regulations, should not go through.
  In last week's debate not one speaker, Conservative, Liberal or Labour, gave wholehearted approval to the service. Every hon. Member, and particularly the Conservative Members who contributed to the debate, required specific assurances from the Postmaster-General, or, on that occasion, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, before the Regulations were approved. The Chief Secretary wound up the debate. I do not know why. He knows nothing about the Post Office. We had from him no reply and no assurances—only a few gibes, particularly against the Liberal Party and its minibus. The right hon. Gentleman never relieved any of the concern felt by the National Union of Post Office Workers, and neither did he assure any hon. Member opposite about the service, with the consequence that a number of abstentions were recorded that evening.
  On this occasion the Postmaster-General is present and we hope that he will intervene and treat the subject a little more seriously than either he or the Chief Secretary to the Treasury did last week. We have a number of questions to address to him. Is this service really necessary? The right hon. Gentleman argues, first, that advertisers are "pinching" Post Office business and, secondly, that only after examining similar services overseas did he think that this would be a useful service and one which might improve Post Office finances.
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  Is it not a fact that private companies which have been sending out circulars and advertisements still operate a cheaper service and that it is doubtful how much traffic the right hon. Gentleman will take away from them? Could not the overseas guide be misleading? The right hon. Gentleman well knows that there is opposition to this kind of service in some countries and that it is falling off in others. Switzerland has been quoted. There, the administration is now having to hive off some of this circular delivery traffic to private agencies because it is interfering with the first-class service. There has been no market research here. There has been no test of public feeling. The right hon. Gentleman has never sought the advice of the Post Office advisory councils and he has insisted on introducing the service in spite of the decision made against it by the annual conference of the National Union of Post Office Workers.
  Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman must prove the necessity of the new service. Does he think that it will be profitable? On every occasion he has said that he hopes to make in the first year a profit at the rate of £300,000 a year. Let us examine what this means. First, the right hon. Gentleman must attract traffic from private agencies which at the moment are providing the service more cheaply than the new service will be able to do. Secondly, those who use the Post Office Printed matter service, that is the 2½.d. mail, will be tempted to use this service. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman's printed paper service will lose revenue and what little he may gain on the new service he may well lose on that one.
  The first-class mail service may well be affected. Undoubtedly, if the circulars are to go out on early morning deliveries those deliveries will be retarded. The right hon. Gentleman's advice in the first instance to head postmasters was that they should go out where possible with the first mail I hope that he will assure us today that this will not happen. We cannot afford to do any damage to the first morning delivery. Far too many complaints have been made about that already.
  Can the sample service pay? The postman carries a 35 lb. pouch and he will be expected to take out samples possibly

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  of soap, detergents, toothpaste and drugs. He cannot take enough for the whole of the walk and either he will have to double back on his walk or extra postmen will have to come into the area to deliver the samples. The right hon. Gentleman states specifically in his advertisements that sizes up to 12 in. long, 4¾ in. wide and ¾ in. thick will be allowed.
  How many of these will a postman be able to get into his pouch? This inevitably means, especially in areas where the postmen are already working overtime and where there is a shortage of postmen, that this service will not pay. The right hon. Gentleman will be relying upon the circulars to try to pay for the sample service.
  We should, therefore, like the right hon. Gentleman to assure us as factually as possible that these services will pay. He never thought this matter out. The service was hastily introduced. He advertised the service on 6th January. All the advertisement material went out to the post offices on 20th January, but within three days of advertising it the right hon. Gentleman had stopped the service completely. If he had thought of all the implications he would have been prepared and not perturbed. Therefore, the service was hastily introduced.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Would the hon. Gentleman say at what stage my right hon. Friend consulted the National Union of Post Office Workers?
  Mr. Mason: The hon. Member will find out, if he questions his right hon. Friend, that the union has opposed the scheme for the past eight months, ever since the Postmaster-General first intimated that he intended to introduce it.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Will the hon. Member then withdraw his charge that my right hon. Friend was hasty in his introduction of the scheme?
  Mr. Mason: No, it was hastily introduced, before the right hon. Gentleman properly thought out all the implications and the dangerous aspects of starting for the first time to use a Government Department and uniformed civil servants to distribute advertisements and
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  political propaganda. I intend to go into detail on that subject.
  After the suspension, the Postmaster-General, realising that he had not thought the scheme out properly, sent out fresh instructions to head postmasters. He said that they must not allow racialist literature or literature which would be offensive to young people to be delivered. All the postmasters are in the invidious position of being censors and sifters. They have the Post Office "bible" which gives blanket instructions that no matter may go through which is libellous, obscene or might cause a breach of the peace, but now they have the extra instructions about racialist literature and literature offensive to young people.
  Apart from advertisements and simple matter, what will now go through the sieve? Only political propaganda. Is not this, therefore, the reason why the right hon. Gentleman hastily allowed the service to come into being, and will not the big users be the Tory "front" organisations who spent in 1958, and who intend to spend now, many thousands of pounds on anti-Labour and anti-nationalisation propaganda?
  The Economic League spent £208,000 in 1958 alone. Aims of Industry, which is clamouring to use the service, spent in that year £107,000. Stewarts and Lloyds is starting its campaign now. It spent £269,000 in 1958. There were others of these Tory trumpeters under their private enterprise titles. Altogether, they spent £1,435,000 in that one year, 1958, on anti-Labour and anti-nationalisation propaganda.
  As one political writer said:
  "The amount spent on the anti-nationalisation campaigns was enormous by political standards; it was about four times what the Conservative party was spending on advertising in the same period and fourteen times the Labour party's outlay on public relations. It was £400,000 more than the total expenses of all the candidates in the general election."
  I suspect that one of the reasons for the introduction of the service at this time is that it is a method whereby the Government, via the Postmaster-General, can help their Tory friends to cheat the Representation of the People Act.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Disgraceful. Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. Mason: I have already given way twice to the hon. Member. I am addressing the Postmaster-General and not the hon. Member. The Postmaster-General has a chance to reply and can go into details if he wishes.
  The right hon. Gentleman now has the Martens and anti-trade unionists who have printed 250,000 leaflets. Some have already gone out by hand, but if these people cannot find enough handpicked helpers they will use the Post Office service to deluge chosen letterboxes with this propaganda. Now, Industrial Aids Limited has recently been employed by the Tory Party to assist it in the propaganda drive in the L.C.C. campaign
  I say all this to show that there has been a switch in G.P.O. thinking and policy with the introduction of this service. I draw attention to correspondence between Transport House and the right hon. Gentleman's Department when Transport House was seeking permission for a franking slogan on envelopes. On 17th May, the public relations officer of the G.P.O. wrote to the director of publicity of the Labour Party and said:
  "Thank you very much for your letter of 16th May and for telling me about the envelope labels and the franking slogan. I would like to consider these because, as you probably know, one of the conditions of the use of franking slogans, and so on, is that the slogans must not be controversial. It may be that some people in this country might not necessarily agree with your slogan and might feel that it was definitely controversial. I will, however, write to you again as soon as possibly can."
  On 30th May, a further letter went to Transport House from the Department, saying:
  "So far as the envelope labels, which you are proposing to have affixed to individual private correspondence, are concerned, we can have no objection provided that they are used on the address side of the envelope and that they cause no embarrassment to our sorters."
  The letter goes on to say:
  "On the second of your points, I am afraid that I cannot give you such a favourable reply. People are liable to associate slogans in postmarks with the Post Office, and it is for ibis reason that we must forbid the use of any slogan which might be deemed controversial. I am sure you will agree that, by the very nature of things, politics fall into this category."
  The right hon. Gentleman will see from that correspondence that the real G.P.O. objections were that it could be
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  seen, that it could be read, that it might be embarrassing, and that it was politically controversial. May not all these leaflets be the same?
  The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevin): I am trying to help the hon. Gentleman. The reason why the second request from Transport House was turned down was simply that it was, apparently, the desire of Transport House to print a political slogan over the Post Office postmark, which is quite a different thing from a slogan on an envelope.
  Mr. Mason: I am sorry to disagree. That is getting away from the real point which is at the heart of it—
  "I am sure you will agree that, by the very nature of things, politics fall into this category"—
  and the Post Office did not want to embarrass the sorters. Without any doubt at all, it appears from what was said that the reason the slogan could not be allowed was that it could be seen, it could be read, it might be embarrassing, it was politics, and it was controversial.
  The same applies to these leaflets: they can be seen, they can be read, they may be embarrassing to postmen or sorters, and they ire certainly controversial. Why has there been this switch which now allows open political propaganda to be circulated via the General Post Office and this special service? Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may say, he will still leave a suspicion in our minds that it has been purposely done to allow the Tory front organisations, these vast spenders on anti-Labour literature, a cheap, easy and guaranteed access to every home.
  What about the opting-out procedure? The right hon. Gentleman must be aware, because he will have had telephone messages and letters, especially from his head postmasters because they have been swamped with inquiries, that people wand: to opt out. If a householder wishes to opt out of the service, how is he to do it? Some people are saying that they will put "No circulars" on the gatepost, or they will put the stuff back in envelopes and send them unstamped to the Postmaster-General, to Aims of Industry, and so on. This is a matter of public concern.

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  Many people do not want to receive advertisements, let alone political propaganda, on their mat every morning. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take a little time in explaining to us what directives he has now sent out to head postmasters on this matter.
  Now, a few words about the postmen. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, staff relations in the Post Office are now at their lowest ebb. I think it fair to say that they are the worst in living memory. The general secretary of the U.P.W. said only a few days ago that staff relations in the Post Office were the worst he has known them in his 30 years' experience. Post Office workers were incensed by the right hon. Gentleman's low wages policy for postmen. In spite of very strong and persistent opposition to the introduction of this scheme, the right hon. Gentleman still decided to steam-roller it through.
  However, I say to the postmen that all the democratic avenues for opposing the introduction of the service have been used. There was a Parliamentary lobby. I think that it was the first time that the U.P.W. had lobbied in Parliament, which shows the concern it feels. Secondly, there have been deputations by the U.P.W. executive to the Postmaster-General himself. We have had a censure debate, and finally, we are praying now against the Regulations. I only hope that, in the event of our being defeated by the vote tonight, the postmen will not take any untoward industrial action which would turn public opinion against them, especially at a time when they have public sympathy. The executive of the Union of Post Office Workers has fought the scheme constitutionally, and it is now entitled to the support and loyalty of its membership.
  In conclusion, I say this to the Minister. He is the head of a great Department, a Department which has a fine record as a public service. It is a fascinating and interesting Department which is rapidly growing in importance. The Minister has broadcasting and television under his authority, and he is responsible in part also for the introduction of satellite communications. His Department is now girdling the world with telephone cables. He is responsible
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  for international broadcasting which is bringing nations closer together, and, indeed, he is partly responsible for "selling Britain".
  The Post Office is no longer a "Cinderella" Ministry. I appeal to the Postmaster-General not to besmirch it with petty, dubious and unwanted innovations, especially these which smack of commercialism, and not to allow his Department to be used as a tool of the Tory Party.
  7.26 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: I share with the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) an admiration for this great public institution, the Post Office. I listened with pleasure to some of the sentiments about the greatly enlarged responsibilities of the Postmaster-General with which he ended his speech, and I share in his admiration of the way in which my right hon. Friend has carried out his responsibilities in those wider fields.
  The hon. Gentleman's speech contained many contradictions. I shall try to deal with some of them, and, no doubt, my hon. Friends will deal with others. He made much play of the fact, which he stated, that there had been no unreserved support for the scheme from this side of the House when it was last debated. On that occasion, we had limited time for debate. There was another important subject down for discussion that day, and several hon. Members who wished to take part were unable to do so. I was one of those. In spite of the fact that I knew that, if I stood in my place, I should have the same chance as any hon. Member to catch Mr. Speaker's eye, I thought that there was a considerable pressure of speakers and, because my chances were small even by the law of averages, I decided that I for one would not try to intervene on that occasion.
  Now, the subject is raised again. No doubt there will be some acrimonious arguments. My speech may contain one or two inflammatory sentences—I am prepared to argue the merits of this case with any hon. Member—but it will to some extent also be exploratory. We have the benefit of my right hon. Friend's presence this evening, and he is in the best possible position to answer all the allegations which are being made.

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  The hon. Member for Barnsley said that there were other services apart from the proposed Post Office Household Delivery Service which were cheaper, and he did not think that this service would be a success because it would not be an economic one and people would not use it since it did not offer a good and cheap service. He said this at the beginning. At the end of his speech, he said something about wicked Tory spenders who would get a cheap, easy and guaranteed access to every household. The hon. Gentleman must concede that there was a contradiction between those two statements.
  Mr. Mason: Not at all. In order to send printed matter through the G.P.O. service now, people must purchase envelopes, see that they are addressed and make sure that each carries a 2½d stamp. It is an expensive service. If people want an alternative unaddressed delivery service, they must use a private agency, which, of course, does not guarantee access to every home. These agencies are unofficial. They cannot be relied on. But the Postmaster-General has stepped in now with a service, which is cheaper than the rate service, though more expensive than the private agency service, but guaranteeing access to every home.
  Mr. Cooke: The hon. Member is an ingeniously argumentative character. I must leave the House to decide whether he contradicted himself in the course of his speech.
  Mr. A. R. Wise: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Cooke: Does my hon. Friend wish to intervene?
  Mr. Wise: I was just agreeing with my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Cooke: Then perhaps my hon. Friend will do so on his feet.
  The hon. Member for Barnsley suggested that this service would interfere with the first class mail service. I should have thought that the regulations in the Post Office Guide, July, 1963, edition, Supplement No. 5, January, 1964, so tied up the user of this service that it would be almost impossible for it to clash with the interests of the first class mail. There are all kinds of conditions of acceptance and conditions
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  under which these circulars will be delivered. There are restrictions on postings. They will not be accepted on Saturdays, Sundays or public and bank holidays, or during the period from 8th to 27th December. How right that is. We all know that the service is overloaded at that time. All this would seem to take care of the hon. Member's argument. I do not think that he has made a very good case. He was clutching at every conceivable objection to this service.
  This is the third time that the House has had the opportunity to discuss this matter. Perhaps we shall be treated to a fourth. Perhaps it will be pursued in another place. As I say, the hon. Member had to grasp at every possible argument. No doubt the House will see from the regulations that the first class mail will not be interfered with. Surely the early delivery which we all hope for in our homes will not be affected. Surely we shall not have the spectacle of the staggering postman with a great pack on his back laden with bars of soap and boxes of detergent. All this is taken care of in the regulations.
  If the Post Office has surplus space in its delivery vans—and many of us, certainly in the country, know that when a van comes to a house it often is not full—postmen will be able to deliver samples in the country areas and make money for the Post Office. They will be travelling with their van not empty but full of custom from which the Post Office will, I hope, reap a handsome profit. Having studied the regulations with immense care, I do not feel there is any dander that the first class mail and important matters will be interfered with by this service. The regulations tie the matter up.
  The hon. Member made much play with the fact that my right hon. Friend had introduced this service and then suspended it. However one tries to construe the facts, my right hon. Friend suspended the service because there was an outcry against it from certain people—mostly from right hon. and hon. Members opposite and particularly a certain right hon. Member about whom I will have more to say in a moment and whose name is mentioned in one of the pamphlets concerned. It was because of that that my right hon. Friend temporarily

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  withdrew the service pending discussion here. Surely that is the right way to go about the matter out of the courtesy to the House. If the House felt that this service should be looked into more carefully, my right hon. Friend acted with absolute propriety in withdrawing it.
  I do not want to weary the House endlessly with answering the speech of the hon. Member for Barnsley—he and I have our differences—but I feel that I must challenge some of the things that he said about the enormous expenditure by what he called, I think, Tory front organisations. Surely the essence of all this propaganda is anti-nationalisation. [An HON. MEMBER: "And anti-Socialism."] Anti-Socialism as well, as an hon. Member says. Nationalisation and Socialism are the same thing; nobody can escape from that. There are other aspects of the Socialist creed, other symptoms of the disease—[Interruption.] I do not think I can define Conservatism within the scope of the short speech which I hope to make.
  Let me return to the charge which the hon. Member made that Tory front organisations were indulging in vast expenditure on anti-Nationalisation propaganda. Surely they are entitled to do that. They are protecting the interests of their shareholders. I expected a derisive laugh at that remark. They are protecting the interests of their workers. [Laughter.] That produces nothing more than a derisive laugh from hon. Members opposite. This is what these people are trying to do. They are fighting for their very life. They sincerely believe that their method of operation will be severely damaged by nationalisation, that many of their workers will lose their jobs, and that the industries will be less profitable and the workers will not receive a proper reward for their work.
  I leave that aspect of the matter. The hon. Member dragged it in as part of his argument, but it is not what we want to discuss this evening. I should say, in passing, that the so-called great Tory front organisations are not alone in this campaign. If the hon. Member knew what the Tobacco Workers' Union laid on every workbench in the Imperial Tobacco Company's factories shortly
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  before polling day at the last election, he would be ashamed of what some of his friends were up to.
  The hon. Member suggested that this was a way in which a political party could cheat the Representation of the People Act, which deals with the amount of money which should be spent at election time. At the three Parliamentary elections in which I have been a candidate I have never used all the allowed money on my campaign. There must be many hon. Members on both sides of the House who have never used their maximum permitted allowance. It is not right to suggest that here is some back door way of financing a campaign. The maximum sum allowed is very seldom completely used.
  The hon. Member ended with a few words to the postmen. I imagine that he was addressing the postmen through you, Mr. Speaker. I should like to say this about the position of the postmen, through you, Mr. Speaker. We all like our postmen—I hope we do. We all regard him as being a pleasant and helpful member of the community. Some of the trouble which has occurred has been due to a lack of unanimity, to differences within the union where relationships are said to be so low at present. My right hon. Friend will be able to deal with this at greater length. Surely some of the difficulties have arisen from a lack of decision and a going back on previous decisions by the Union of Post Office Workers. It is not fair to say that it is my right hon. Friend's harsh or ill-considered action which has caused this difficulty. There are differences among these people, and they have not been able to tell him what their mind was. That is bound to make for difficulties.
  No doubt hon. Members opposite will say that my right hon. Friend should not have introduced the service if he was not sure what view the Post Office workers would take about it. If one takes this attitude one never gets anything done at all. Her Majesty's Government are often criticised for not having ascertained the views of their supporters before doing something. But when one asks for the views of one's supporters on anything one often gets a mixed bag of arguments and one has

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  to make a decision. It is the Government's duty to govern and make decisions, and it is a Minister's duty to run his Department and not to be run by it. That is the only sentiment uttered by the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) with which I agree.
  My right hon. Friend was right to introduce this service, because he is trying to make more money for the Post Office. The hon. Member for Barnsley said that the pay and conditions of the Post Office workers were bad. We are hoping that they will receive an increase. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will have something to say about that. Many Government services have received an increase recently. How can the hon. Member reconcile his claim that the Post Office workers are not getting enough money with his opposition to a service which may bring in more money and make it possible for the workers to be paid more? If they are to get overtime for working this service as well, there will be great opportunity here for earning a little extra. It is incomprehensible—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Barnsley wish to intervene? I will be happy to give way. It is difficult to contain my speech within the short time which I intended if he continues to interrupt from a sitting position. No doubt, my right hon. Friend will deal with the other details which were raised by the hon. Member for Barnsley but which I have been unable to cope with.
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs: May I ask the hon. Member a question about overtime? Is he aware that in many districts breaking point has been reached through overtime being worked in areas where there is already a serious shortage of postal staff? How are we to deal with this extra work in such areas? If the hon. Member cannot answer, no doubt the Postmaster-General will try when he replies.
  Mr. Cooke: Perhaps I might have a shot at it and, if I do not succeed, my right hon. Friend may be able to answer at greater length. The whole tone of the prospectus of the scheme is that the Post Office will carry out this service where it finds it possible to do so and it will not allow it to interfere with its existing important services. I have no doubt
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  that my right hon. Friend will be able to give chapter and verse from the Regulations. As I see it, however, there are adequate safeguards to prevent an overburdened service—as it is in some, but not all, districts—from being swamped.
  To return to my case concerning the country districts, I know that the Post Office van which calls at our house regularly in the morning before I am awake and in the afternoon is certainly not full to capacity. Once when the door was open I saw that there was practically nothing in it. There are opportunities for using the existing facilities to a profitable end.
  Mr. Spriggs: Is the hon. Member telling us that the Post Office will determine, where this new service will be operated?
  Mr. Cooke: I cannot pursue the matter endlessly with the hon. Member, because my right hon. Friend has all the details and other hon. Members might be disappointed in their efforts to speak in the debate if they prolong my remarks unduly.
  Mr. Spriggs: Answer.
  Mr. Cooke: The answer is in the regulations. It will be within the power of the Post Office not to get itself swamped with a vast amount of this stuff to interfere with the firstclass mail. The regulations say so. My right hon. Friend will give the details.
  I turn to my general remarks about the service before coming on to some of the detailed criticisms. We have virtually debated the subject twice already, with one full-length debate and another period of to-ing and fro-ing across the Floor of the House. There have been long discussions and one might well take the view that all that could usefully be said on this subject had been said. I am surprised that it cannot now be left alone, but hon. Members opposite have raised it again tonight and it is only fair that those of us who are interested in the Post Office should give the House our views and, possibly, be contradicted by other hon. Members, so that we do not waste the time which has been allotted for this debate.
  I hesitated to intervene but for the fact that time this evening seems to be unlimited, there does not appear to be

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  a large number of hon. Members on either side who are interested in the subject, and one might use this opportunity of one of those rare occasions when it is possible to speak in the House without crowding out one's hon. Friends or opponents, giving the House one's views and learning from subsequent speeches.
  I share the view of the hon. Member for Barnsley that the Post Office is a great national institution with a fine record of public service. But it is not a fossilised institution. It has progressed with the times. We have seen the introduction of the letter service in its various forms. We saw the introduction of postage stamps in which this country was a pioneer. We have seen the introduction of adhesive postage stamps and the telephone service, first of all over wire and now, to some extent, over the radio. I hope that during his subsequent years of administration my right hon. Friend will be able to get rid of some of the wires which festoon the countryside. I must not, however, stray from the subject.
  During my time as a Member of the House of Commons, we have seen the introduction of S.T.D., when Her Majesty the Queen made the first telephone call by this method to my constituency in Bristol. At that time, my right hon. Friend's predecessor was Postmaster-General. The hon. Member for Barnsley and other people at various times have spoken on the contribution by the Post Office to the space age.
  Some of the services are healthy, paying services, much used by the public, expanding and profitable. As a result, Post Office finances in those spheres are reasonably healthy. There are, however, some aspects of the services which do not pay. Some do not pay because they could hardly be commercially viable, and others do not pay because it is a conscious act of policy to protect the public from the increasing costs which we all face.
  I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend's efforts to keep the postage rate at a steady price. He has done much in this direction. For this purpose, he has introduced a number of commercial methods. We can hardly have escaped the attractive coloured posters which are to be
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  seen on nearly all Post Office, or certainly on Her Majesty's Stationery Office vans, saying:
  "Some one somewhere wants a letter from you".
  Mr. William Ross: Why does not the hon. Member go and write one?
  Mr. Cooke: It may be suggested that the new advertisements are cheap and nasty, but, on the other hand, if we can get a postal service which is efficient, and by and large it is highly efficient—incidentally, to digress for a moment, we hear only about the inefficiencies. It is rather like when the House of Lords gets into trouble. That is all we hear about. We do not hear about the good work that it does. We hear about Members of Parliament only when they do something silly. When they do something constructive, we are not told about it; it is not news.
  Nobody wants increased postal charges. My right hon. Friend is right to pursue every possible course to try to make the Post Office more profitable and to keep the letter post at the present rate. The service is under-used in some parts. My right hon. Friend has introduced this new delivery in order to take up the slack. But it is not a new idea. One or two other countries have tried it already. I believe that it was even tried here some years ago in a limited form. Of course, it is quite possible to have the same sort of service covering every household by sending out stereotyped postcards. Postcards can be of enormous size and can carry something much more illuminating and inflammatory than some of the leaflets now criticised. The fact is that the new service is a valiant attempt by my right hon. Friend to try to make a little more money for the public service.
  Why should not the Post Office cash in? Why should it be left to a lot of private individuals to detract from the Post Office, to take away its opportunity and profit? Surely we are here to protect the public and this great national service. Shall it compete like the railways—
  Mr. Mason: We soon will not have any.
  Mr. Cooke: The hon. Gentleman says that soon we shall not have railways.

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  But, judging from opposition in this House from both sides to any sort of retraction of railway services, I doubt if Dr. Beeching will be able to carry out more than a little palliative surgery, let alone a large-scale policy of amputation. The railways are anxious to benefit from profitable services and to abandon unprofitable ones. An example is the Railway Museum, which they are trying to unload. However, if I digress, other hon. Members will call me to order even if you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, do not.
  My right hon. Friend did not introduce the new delivery without proper thought. He consulted the union. My construction is that the union thought it a good idea at first and then found it might have snags. I cannot but believe that there is a certain amount of politics in this. The union does not like delivering a particular leaflet. I will come to that in a moment. I tried to get a copy of this leaflet in the Library, but it did not possess one. I was told that the Library found it difficult to obtain the publications of Aims of Industry Ltd. I hope that Aims of Industry Ltd. will be more forthcoming, since it is difficult otherwise for hon. Members to study these things. Fortunately, I now have one of the leaflets.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Does not my hon. Friend agree that these pamphlets are very harmless? They give quotations from both sides, including long passages from "Signpost for the Sixties", telling us what the Labour Party would do in power.
  Mr. Cooke: I thank my hon. Friend for that useful intervention. If I do not deal sufficiently with "Signpost for the Sixties" perhaps he will intervene again. I wanted to point out that the new delivery is introduced by a much more attractive pamphlet. It is not right to say that my right hon. Friend took no thought before introducing it.
  Mr. Spriggs: Why did the right hon. Gentleman suspend the delivery then?
  Mr. Cooke: If the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Spriggs) had been present at the beginning of my speech—which was, I agree, some time ago—he would know that my right hon. Friend suspended the delivery out of courtesy to this
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  House—that puts the best construction on it—or, if one wants to be more partisan, because the Leader of the Opposition did not like what the pamphlet said. Hon. Members opposite must decide as they please. The fact remains that my right hon. Friend has produced a most attractive booklet. It is in colour, and copies may be obtained from the Library.
  It is a first-class presentation of a public service in the very best commercial way. We receive great numbers of documents through the post. Some are of low taste and others are ill constructed. This, however, is a most handsome document and any businessman would be bound to be attracted by it. I have seen favourable comments on the leaflet in journals published by chambers of commerce. I have no intention, however, of reading great expanses of the document to the House.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Before my hon. Friend completes his preliminary remarks, can he say who designs the various contributions?
  Mr. Cooke: My hon. Friend has me there. I can see no signature to the illustrations in this document. The pamphlet seems to be anonymously produced, but perhaps my right hon. Friend will be able to say something about that. I can, however, tell my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) who did the drawings in a most attractive Aims of Industry production which has not yet reached the general public. Incidentally, I have no connection with any of these bodies but another hon. Member showed me a new booklet only this morning.
  To return to the Post Office booklet. One finds one's way about it with great ease. The pages are well numbered and each section is designed to arrest the eye and tell how the service operates. This is a popular version of the rather turgid document I quoted at an earlier stage. I see that the hon. Member for St. Helens still seems unable to sit firmly in his place. I think he will find that, if the answers to various questions are not in the coloured document, they are in the less colourful one. However, I will not prolong the discussion on this beautifully produced affair because other hon. Members may wish to refer to it.

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  Now I come to the controversial leaflet, or leaflets, because it seems that some hon. Members have been more successful than I in getting copies. I did have the other leaflet, but when this matter came up at Question Time the other day my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) stretched out his hand to me and said, "What is that you are reading?" He took it away and I have not had it back.
  The Aims of Industry leaflet is quite harmless in many ways. It is certainly neither obscene nor offensive. It really contains only one thing that could have caused difficulty to hon. Members opposite. It quotes some of the more unfortunate sentiments of the Leader of the Opposition. It also makes merry with the "thumbs up" sign we have seen presented on so many of their documents. It gives the "thumbs down" sign to nationalisation. That is all it does. The other document concerned in this quarrel is very much the same. A somewhat faceless gentleman is to be seen with his pockets full of factories and workshops.
  In other words, this is the straightforward anti-nationalisation case which we have heard so many times before. Hon. Members opposite nod their heads. We have seen it all before. Then why do they find it so offensive when the case is restated? The only reason why it is being restated is that the party opposite sticks to the out-of-date doctrine which we have election after election.
  I shall not continue on that political line, except to say that I find it difficult to see why the Post Office workers should object to this leaflet.
  Mr. Archie Manuel: You keep off the workers' grievances.
  Mr. Cooke: If the hon. Member had been here earlier he would have heard me pay tribute to the splendid service that these people are giving. I go along with the hon. Member for Barnsley in his sentiments about the Post Office, but I clash with him when he denounces this service. I say that it would be a good thing, because with the extra profit we could pay the Post Office workers more. They are to get more anyway, but they might then be able
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  to get even more. Not to go over the earlier part of my remarks—
  Mr. Norman Dodds: Oh, for heaven's sake.
  Mr. Cooke: If hon. Members persist in intervening and charging me with things that I did not say I must answer the charges, even if those hon. Members were not here at the beginning of my remarks.
  Mr. Manuel: I was merely indicating that the hon. Member should keep off the subject of the workers' grievances. Others here are more competent to do that than he is. They can speak more adequately for Post Office workers than he can. We do not need to have him butting in and saying things that he knows nothing about.
  Mr. Cooke: It is wrong to charge hon. Members on this side of the House with being outsiders. We are as entitled as hon. Members opposite to take an interest in Post Office workers. Hon. Members opposite have no monopoly in that.
  I now come to the next part of my speech, which will deal with some of the arguments that have been put forward to the effect that the proposed introduction of this service has met with considerable public opposition. I have received one letter on the subject, against the service. I would not wish to hide anything or to try to prejudice the case, but this is a very small postbag compared with that which I received on the subject of trading stamps, or on what the Minister of Education said or did not say about sex, or on pay for teachers, or on nuclear disarmament, on which subject I receive a steady flow of letters, most of them from people who are not in my constituency.
  But this subject attracted very little interest among my constituents. I believe that other hon. Members have had the same experience, unless they have some special interest in the Post Office. The correspondence that I have had in connection with this matter in no way approaches that which I once had after a wet Sunday afternoon when the stag hunting issue was current. I will now turn to the objection made by my constituent on this service in order to try to allay some of the suspicions and

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  the fears that great difficulties will arise over it. My constituent says:
  "The service could give offence or discomfort to sections of the community by the indiscriminate distribution of circulars of a religious, moral or ethical nature contrary to the beliefs or principles held by individual members or sections of the public."
  I will not go into details, but my constituent makes the point that certain religious or moral dangers might ensue from the distribution of these pamphlets.
  Surely they can be distributed by the ordinary processes of the mail. They can be distributed on postcards which are open for all to see—and everybody reads everybody else's postcards. They are more likely to pick up other people's postcards—
  Mr. Manuel: Speak for yourself.
  Mr. Cooke: It is something of a tradition. One first looks at the picture on one side and then at the other side to see who has sent the postcard. It is a tradition.
  Mr. James Griffiths: On a point of order. Is there still such a rule as the rule of tedious repetition, Mr. Deputy-Speaker?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): There is such a rule. I do not think that we have quite reached that stage yet.
  Mr. Griffiths: Have we any hope of soon reaching it. Mr. Deputy-Speaker?
  Mr. Cooke: I am sorry if I have appeared to be tedious to some hon. Members opposite. It must be fair to point out that many of them were not here at the beginning of my remarks, so it is a little difficult to see how they can claim that I have been guilty of tedious repetition. Tedium it may be, but not repetition—because they do not know what I said earlier on.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Would my hon. Friend also take note of the fact that hon. Members opposite have been so interested and fascinated by his remarks that not one has left the Chamber?
  Mr. Cooke: If I were to try to answer all the various charming suggestions which have been made by hon. Members during the course of my remarks I might remain on my feet longer than the House would wish.
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  I do not wish to go over the arguments that were raised in the debate on 4th February, except to say that any hon. Member on either side of the House who read through the report of that debate might be charmed by the wholehearted plunging in of the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) but would surely have been impressed by the incisive wit of the First Secretary to the Treasury, who wound up the debate. I do not wish to prolong my remarks by going over the arguments raised in those two speeches, but in my view my right hon. Friend flattened the right hon. Member for Belper. Let any hon. Member challenge that if he dare.
  During the earlier part of my speech I said that there was a final consolation for hon. Members who objected to this scheme, namely, that we are not to be treated merely to miserable black and white leaflets from the organisation that was so much in question. Today one of my hon. Friends had sent to him another of its publications, and I have seen it. It is a charming yellow and black booklet, called The Trojan Horse. That is a new approach to this problem of back-door nationalisation. It seems to be a very suitable illustration.
  Mr. Ross: What regulation are we talking about?
  Mr. Cooke: The hon. Member asks what this has to do with the regulations.
  Mr. Ross: What is the regulation that we are now discussing? What is its number?
  Mr. Cooke: For the benefit of the hon. Member it is 1963 No. 2137, Post Office; The Inland Post Regulations, 1963; Made on 30th December, 1963; Laid before Parliament on 6th January, 1964, and Coming into Operation on 20th January, 1964. There follow 48 pages which I do not propose to read to the House.
  Mr. Ross: But which regulation is it?
  Mr. Cooke: I understand that all the regulations are under discussion and that if hon. Members opposite had their way and managed to carry the vote against these regulations this evening we would be as we were without these

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  regulations, except that we would not have the new service proposed by my right hon. Friend. [Interruption.]
  I am not here to answer an interrogation from a sedentary hon. Member opposite. If I endeavoured to answer all the questions I should be here until the end of the debate, and that would be unkind to other hon. Members. To come to the end of my remarks—
  Mr. Godfrey Lagden: Before that unhappy state of affairs arrives, would my hon. Friend give us the benefit of his thoughts on the point which flowed from the remarks of the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) earlier in the debate, when he referred to that very noble band of people who are employed in putting literature through letter boxes? The hon. Member was referring to postmen, and he said that if they were to carry out this service they would be degraded to the level of those deliverers. In my opinion, those people are most assiduous working people, earning an honest living, and they should not be referred to in such a way.
  Mr. Spriggs: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The hon. Gentleman rose to put a question. Surely he is not entitled to make a speech. I ask for your Ruling.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I was about to tell the hon. Gentleman that it is an abuse of the rules of the House to endeavour to make a speech within a speech.
  Mr. Cooke: I am sorry, but I did not catch the end of my hon. Friend's question. I am not sure what it was that he was putting through the letter box.
  Mr. Lagden: May I put the end of my question which was not heard, Mr. Deputy-Speaker? Would not my hon. Friend also agree that to refer to people who are earning an honest living as "dishonest"—as has been done this evening—is detrimental to decency and to the type of speeches made in this House?
  Mr. Cooke: I would not wish to pursue my hon. Friend in his difficulty in
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  putting whatever it was through the letter box—I still do not know what it was.
  To come back to "The Trojan Horse" booklet, which I mentioned, and which I have not any intention of showing to the House or quoting from—hon. Members show considerable dismay when I referred to it—if it is a booklet, I should think that it would be caught by the regulations and it would not be possible to put copies of it through the letter box unaddressed. So hon. Members opposite will at least have the consolation of knowing that some of the things to which they would, no doubt, object will not be put about by this service.
  I wish to end with the thought that there has been a lot of silly fuss about this really rather small, trifling matter. But Parliament often takes a long time to deal with trifling matters. This is an example of the way in which in this House we always do our best to do justice to the smallest problem, even though on some occasions we are accused of tedium by so doing. But it has some merit in that it fills an idle hour—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and it may be that from this discussion, this prolonged discussion, which we are having some new thoughts may materialise which my right hon. Friend may find useful when putting this service into full operation. So who knows what profit may result. Surely hon. Members on both sides of the House must be anxious to have an up-to-date, efficient and profitable postal service.
  It is no bad thing that the Post Office should enter into the competitive world, just as other businesses should do. Why should the Post Office be hamstrung by prejudice? Let it compete on equal terms with private enter-price and become more efficient. We might even see—though my right hon. Friend may have doubts about this—a reduction in the charges made for some of the services. No doubt my right hon. Friend is striving in this direction. But he will not have a chance to reduce charges unless we can obtain more revenue for the Post Office, and this is one way to get it. I do not think that any hon. Member would quibble about the need for more revenue.

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  We are a long way from the penny postage. There must be few hon. Members alive in this House who can remember the penny postage—
  Mr. Ross: Or who can remember the beginning of the hon. Gentleman's speech.
  Mr. Cooke:—but we must try to avoid a delivery charge of something like 6d. for letter post. Through all the years in which he has been Postmaster-General, my right hon. Friend, has been struggling to keep down the charges, and so far he has succeeded. Do not let us do anything this evening to stop that effort. Do not let us take away the new regulations which he so badly needs in order to improve his service. The only possible result of killing this by a vote would be to impair the Post Office services and lose one chance to get more revenue from an increased and improved service. So I wish success to the Household Delivery Service which I wholeheartedly support.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Morris: I welcome the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Bristol, West, (Mr. Robert Cooke). He said that on the last occasion when the House had an opportunity to debate this issue the time available was somewhat short. Having listened to his very long speech, I can well appreciate his regret, if we had contributions as long as his, a week would not be an adequate length of time in which to hear all the contributions that hon. Members would wish to make.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the circulars distributed by Aims of Industry and other anti-nationalisation institutions. He said he wanted to pay tribute to the efficiency of the Post Office and the work done by post office workers. I welcome that tribute. From someone who is a self-expressed opponent of nationalisation, such a generous tribute to the first nationalised institution in this country is indeed welcome.
  Mr. Robert Cooke Mr. Robert Cooke rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Will not the hon. Member concede that this nationalised concern, as he called it, was invented
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  long before the Socialist Party or Socialism was ever dreamed of?
  Mr. Morris: I think that that intervention was somewhat unfortunate and completely irrelevant.
  I am identifying myself with this Prayer because of some of the new factors which have emerged since the Household Delivery Service outlined in paragraph 25 on page 19 of the Regulations was introduced. The hon. Member for Bristol, West referred to the limitations of the delivery aspects of the service. I think that they have reached a stage where the situation is slightly ludicrous.
  The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the fact that deliveries will not be made on Saturdays, Sundays, Bank Holidays, or during the Christmas holiday period. This week the Post Office has announced that there will not be deliveries cm the night mail delivery—that is the first delivery of the day—on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays or Fridays. There are a host of restrictions on the service. The question which occurs to me is: with all these restrictions, is the service justified? Is this House is the Postmaster-General, justified in provoking the hostility of the nation's postmen by providing such a restricted service?
  When I refer to the nation's postmen I am not referring to industrial anarchists. They are a reasonable and responsible section of the industrial community. Were they industrial anarchists, if they opposed services provided by the Post Office just for the sake of opposing them, why did they not oppose the Recorded Delivery Service? They gave wholehearted cooperation to the Post Office in the introduction of hat service regardless of the fact that it has had a tremendous impact on staffing of high-grade postmen. Postmen are a responsible, co-operative section of the people who have a pride in their job and the service which they provide; they are being treated in a most irresponsible fashion by the Postmaster-General.
  The hon. Member for Bristol, West touched on the very important topic of remuneration of Post Office minor manipulative grades. I do not think that his right hon. Friend will welcome the com

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  ments he made. I share his hope that postal workers will get justice in the current wage negotiations, but I want the Postmaster-General to make it clear, when he winds up the debate, whether he accepts the point made by the hon. Member that profitability ought to be taken into account in determining wage levels within the Post Office. If the Postmaster-General accepts that contention, I hope that he will be far more forthcoming with regard to wages than he has been so far in the negotiations he has begun with the Union of Post Office Workers.
  A great deal has been said about the political involvement of postmen in the Household Delivery Service. This is an important aspect of the scheme. Post Office rules lay down that a postman, while in uniform, should not become involved in political activity. He should not canvass for any political party; he should not identify himself with any political party during the hours of his duty while wearing the uniform of his employment. Are those rules to be changed now that we are to have the Household Delivery Service which will create political involvement outside the period of General Elections or by elections?
  Some time ago the Post Office introduced Premium Savings Bonds. One of the interesting facts which emerged during the negotiations about the introduction of that scheme was that Post Office clerks who had a legitimate, conscientious objection to becoming involved in what they thought to be gambling were allowed to make known their conscientious objection to their head postmasters or postmasters. Is the Postmaster-General to make available to Post Office staff an opportunity to make a similar conscientious objection to becoming involved in politics?
  There is the question of compulsory overtime. I have indicated the limitations that have been put on the delivery aspects of this service. It becomes perfectly clear that if the Postmaster General does not accept that this is a burden additional to the normal exigencies of the service, at least officials at Post Office headquarters accept this argument. They accept that the House-hold Delivery Service will be an added
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  burden for postmen. They have accepted that it cannot be done on the night mail delivery because that delivery is already over-full in a great many areas. They were, therefore, obliged to consider when it could be delivered. It is now proposed that it will go on the second or third delivery within the London area.
  Will the Postmaster-General tell us whether overtime for postmen involved in special household deliveries, or deliveries expanded because of the inclusion of household delivery items which will be incurred on that basis, will be compulsory? If so, and if the Department says that the household delivery items are a burden above the normal, will he consider making an overtime rate for postmen involved in this duty above the normal overtime rates?
  I want to deal with the effects on the fully-paid correspondence which the introduction of this scheme will have. This is the nub of the argument for people outside this House and outside the Post Office. Everyone within the Post Office and those with its interests at heart takes pride in the fact that we have one of the most efficient postal administrations in the world, but that is not shared by hon. Members in regard to delivery arrangements for first delivery fully-paid correspondence.
  I did a little research and looked up Questions which had appeared on the Order Paper during the past 12 months. During that time 31 Questions have directed the attention of the Postmaster-General to the inadequacies or failure in regard to treatment of fully-paid correspondence by his Department. That opinion exists in this House and obviously reflects views of constituents in every part of the country. In that situation, are we to insist that this service which will be an added burden should be accepted without any quibble?
  The hon. Member for Bristol, West talked about advertising. He said that the Post Office was at present engaged in an advertising campaign, "Someone somewhere wants a letter from you". I hope that no one wants it delivered by the Household Delivery Service. The Postmaster-General is wasting money in this direction; and I say that deliberately. One estimate of the cost in which

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  he is involving the Department at present is £150,000 for outdoor advertising and television advertising of the postal service. He should ask himself and his officials how much traffic all the advertising has attracted since the inception of his policy of commercial advertising.
  I hope that the Postmaster-General will not persist in his obdurate attitude towards the very reasonable and responsible opinions which have been expressed to him by the leaders of the Union of Post Office Workers.
  8.30 p.m.
  Sir Stephen McAdden: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. C. Morris) too closely, except to say that I share with him, as with all hon. Members, a great admiration for the work done by the employees of the Post Office. But it was a little ungenerous of him to suggest that because hon. Members, in carrying out their constituency responsibilities, drew attention to shortcomings here and there in the mail delivery in their own area they were doing a disservice to the Post Office, or reflecting adversely on the merit of Post Office employees. I am sure that there are many hon. Members opposite, as on this side of the House, who from time to time have had to complain about an inadequate telephone service as about an inadequate mail service. I do not think that that is relevant to the matter which we are discussing.
  I apologise to the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) for the fact that I was not here when the debate started. I was unaware that it was to begin so early. In fact, I was attending to the very large volume of mail, some complimentary and some uncomplimentary, which I have received in the last few days.
  Mr. Mason: Was it stamped?
  Sir S. McAdden: It was all stamped, but not all sealed. I am sure that postmen who are responsible for the delivery of mail to the House do not worry particularly whether what is contained inside an envelope is complimentary or otherwise to the hon. Member who receives it. Perhaps some of the senders of some of this unpaid correspondence—unpaid in the sense that it does not carry full postage and is sent in unsealed
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  envelopes—would be interested to see what happens to some of this mail when it is opened. But there is a distinction between mail sent in an envelope and the subjects contained in Rule 25 of the document which we have been discussing.
  Mr. Mason: The Regulations.
  Sir S. McAdden: If my terminology is not as correct as it should be, I will point out that I was never a school-teacher.
  Mr. Manuel: A maiden speech?
  Sir S. McAdden: It may be a maiden speech to the hon. Member, who may not be here very often.
  Mr. Manuel: I am here day in and and day out. It is a long time since the hon. Member made a speech in the House.
  Sir S. McAdden: It is obvious that the hon. Member has not been diligent in his duties during the last 10 days, otherwise he would know that I made two speeches, both short, in the House last week. I am sorry that he was not in his place. Had he been in his place, he would not have made that rather impertinent interjection.
  I am anxious to discuss the matter raised by the bon. Member for Barnsley It is ironic that criticism is being directed to the distribution of leaflets through this new service by an organisation which is interested in putting the case against nationalisation—and the method which it is seeking to use to put the case against nationalisation is the nationalised Post Office. Surely it is a wonderful argument for hon. Members opposite to say, "What is the use of these people saying that nationalisation is no good when they are paying tribute to the efficiency of nationalisation by using a nationalised service?" Surely that is a worth-while point.
  On the other hand, that would start with an assumption that Aims of Industry, members of the Conservative Party and others who criticise nationalisation are necessarily opposed to all forms of nationalisation. Of course we are not. The Conservative Party has not opposed running the Post Office as a nationalised institution, nor do we

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  pretend that its success has been achieved solely as a result of nationalisation.
  It is only in recent years that the difficult job of transporting letters from Land's End to John O'Groats has been undertaken by another nationalised industry; until then it was done by private enterprise. It is only in comparatively recent years that the mail vans have been run directly by the Post Office. They used to be run by contractors to the Post Office whose name, I think, was McNamara. The difficult job of getting letters across long distances overseas is done even today by ship.
  Let us not pretend that we must be doctrinaire about nationalisation on this issue. Where nationalisation can he justified as essential in the national interest, and where there is a case to show that it is being done efficiently, by all means let us pay tribute to the work which it does and let us seek to extend its efficiency by constantly seeking to attract new ideas into the service.
  But it surely is not fair to lay the blame upon the shoulders of my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General by suggesting that he dreamed up this idea himself. I have a great respect for him. I have know him for many years, but I know that this was not an idea which he thought up one night when he was able to slip home to Liverpool to get a few hours sleep. This has been talked about in Post Office circles for many years, not only in this country but overseas. The executive of the union was rather in favour of this idea and recommended it to the conference. It is true that the conference rejected it. Conferences do not always agree with their leaders. Hon. Members opposite know that very well, as do members of the Conservative Party. We all know that at a conference the rank and file often take a different view from that of the leaders.
  But that does not mean that the leaders are wrong. I think that the executive of the union, with its variety of experience and intimate knowledge, came to a very sensible decision in recommending this proposal to its members, and it is a pity that its members threw it out at the conference. But that does not stop it from being a good idea. The Postmaster-General and his
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  associates in the Ministry and in the Post Office came to the conclusion that it was a good idea which ought to be further developed and exploited, and I am glad that my right hon. Friend has gone on with it undeterred by the fact that, in the main, the criticism seems to be about the nature of the leaflets which may be put into people's homes.
  I am glad that the representatives of the Post Office who have come to see me have not advanced the idea that there is some right for them to act as political censors. Hon. Members opposite complain about the leaflets being issued by Aims of Industry attacking the case which they seek to put. I find them very sensitive on these issues. They never seem to hesitate to attribute all sorts of unworthy motives to hon. Members on this side of the House. They seem to find no difficulty, as I have experienced many times, in describing people as Fascist hyenas, jackals and wicked upholders of the capitalist system. But if anybody attempts to hit back and to say, "It may be that there is something good in the idea which you are attacking", they become very sensitive and nervous about it.
  This shows an unhealthy over-sensitivity. I hope that hon. Members opposite will in future recognise that the objection of postmen themselves is that this service is degrading their status. I cannot for the life of me understand how it should degrade one's status to put an item of correspondence through the letterbox of every house in a road rather than through the letterbox of every other house or every fourth house. [Interruption.] If hon. Members will listen, I shall be able to come to the end of my argument without any repetition.
  I have not indulged in any repetition yet, and I do not propose to do so. Neither do I propose to make a filibuster. I propose to deal with the points I wish to make and I hope that hon. Members will listen to them. The more closely they listen, the more rapidly I shall get to the conclusion. I have never inflicted upon the House a speech of more than about 20 minutes. I have always felt that other Members would do excellently if they copied my concise example, instead of wandering all over the shop.

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  I cannot see that there is any justification for talking about the degradation of status merely because a person delivers something through the letterbox of every house in a road rather than to those few houses which happen to have some addressed mail to be delivered to them. This does not seem to me to be a degradation of status. If there is to be solidarity amongst workers, it is a bit thick when one can say that those who are employed in a private capacity to deliver circulars are degraded individuals. I hope that hon. Members opposite will think about this at the General Election, the date of which is not within my knowledge, when they send their various supporters round stuffing leaflets through doors. I hope that they do not hold a conference before they send their supporters out and tell them, "Go out and degrade yourselves by pushing these leaflets through doors". I hope that they will consider that these people will be serving a worthy and useful purpose.
  I do not think that Post Office employees need he unduly worried, provided that this service does not clog up the delivery of normal mail, provided that it allows the more useful employment of the Post Office's labour force, and provided that it allows the Post Office to provide a service which is presumably wanted by the people. Let it not be assumed that Aims of Industry is the only body which will use this service. For all I know, the Co-op may go in for it, or Transport House. A large number of people may wish to make use of this service.
  But it is not for free. They must pay for it. They will pay for it only if they think that it is worth while. I am sure that the Postmaster-General would never have introduced Regulation 25 unless he had already made inquiries to find what sort of reaction he was likely to get from people who are interested in having unaddressed circulars delivered to houses.
  Mr. Ross: The other way round.
  Sir S. McAdden: The hon. Gentleman, who makes so many interruptions from a sitting position, ought to know better, having been a school teacher. He should know his manners by now. He should know, first, that he should not talk when I am talking. He should
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  know, secondly, that he should wait until I give way to him, and then stand up and say what he wants to say.
  If it be true, as has been alleged by hon. Members opposite, that my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General did not make inquiries, what can one say about the executive of the Union, which recommended this to the conference? Is it contended that the executive never made any inquiries in this country or from its international colleagues in the Post Office service overseas to find out whether such a service was worth while?
  I am satisfied that this matter has been investigated and studied by the Postmaster-General, that the probable revenue resulting from it has been accurately assessed by him, and that the service will be of benefit to the Post Office. I co not want this business to be cluttered up with the idea that there should be same kind of political censorship of the mail merely because a postman, because of his political views, may not like what he is asked to deliver. Many of us have to receive by stamped mail which comes to our homes literature which we find personally offensive. Many times I have heard complaints in the House about advertisements for gambling being delivered to homes. Many people of the Catholic, faith take strong exception to birth control literature being circulated to them in stamped mail.
  If this s already being done by stamped mail, I would not wish literature which offended against people's sense of morality to be inflicted upon them. I am sure that the Regulations which the Postmaster-General has made, properly interpreted, as I am sure that they will be, by him and by those who work under him—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why."] Because I have confidence in the Post Office and I have confidence in the Postmaster-General.
  To be honest, I also have confidence in the "shadow" Postmaster-General, as being a sensible chap. That is why I know that: tonight he has really been speaking with his tongue in his cheek. He knows full well that this is an excellent service and as a man of intelligence he knows that were he in the Postmaster-

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  General's position he would have introduced it long ago. He should rejoice in the knowledge that my right hon. Friend has now, after due consideration and in full knowledge of the consequences, introduced these Regulations. They will, I am sure, prove of enormous benefit to the people.
  I hope, therefore, that the proposal that the Regulations should be annulled will be treated with the contempt it deserves and that it will be known to be what it is—just a party political exercise which has nothing whatever to do with the Post Office.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. William Shepherd: I am glad to see the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. C. Morris) in his place, because I intend to comment on his speech. I do so with some feelings of almost affection, because I was responsible for beating him at the last General Election. I have had discussions with him in the past about the Post Office, in which we have a mutual interest.
  I cannot understand why a representative of the Post Office like himself can begin to complain about my right hon. Friend showing a bit of enterprise. The hon. Member said, in effect, that it was a disgraceful thing that my right hon. Friend should be spending money on advertising. I want to see the Post Office much more aggressive in its selling activities. I wish we could have a big advertising campaign for telephones. We cannot because we do not have enough telephones to advertise. I want to see a sort of buccaneering spirit in the Post Office, and I regret that the hon. Member, who is a representative of the Post Office, wants to see it sitting down doing nothing and not trying to bring more business to its activities. This is not the way to promote a healthy organisation, and I am convinced that his advice is very bad for the Post Office.
  The hon. Member for Openshaw also said that there was no merit in this form of activity. We are all inclined to say that there is no merit in the things we do not like and immense merit in the things we like. I am not on his issue concerned about whether
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  or not this mail is worth while delivering, because I am not paying for it. If I am paying for it, I then have an intense interest in it and I must weigh up whether or not it is worth while. People who are interested in this sort of delivery must consider the merits or demerits of their activities, for they are paying for it, and if it is good and if they find it good for them they will go on using it. If as a result of their experience they find that the service is not of any commercial value, my right hon. Friend will not get much revenue from it.
  Mr. C. Morris: I accept some of the hon. Member's points, but will he accept that it is a complete provocation to accept this type of correspondence against the expressed hostility of the people who will be obliged to carry it?
  Mr. Shepherd: I will come to that, because it is a matter of regret to me that the circumstances which surround this issue have been so full of dissension. Hon. Members opposite have imported into it a political content which should not be imported.
  Mr. David Gibson-Watt: Has my hon. Friend received one letter from any of his constituents? I ask this because, despite the great post office in Hereford, I have not had one letter on this problem. I cannot understand, therefore, why hon. Members opposite insist on taking up the attitude they have adopted.
  Mr. Shepherd: I do not know about the great post office in Hereford, or whether it is any greater than the post office in Cheadle. I have had one letter from someone who said, "We don't want these damned circulars." That person was expressing a point of view to which he is entitled, but this must be judged on the commercial merits of the service. If it has commercial merit, it will be of value. If it has not, it will not be of value. It may well be that the circulars will be of considerable value to people. It may be that one circular out of twenty may be immensely interesting to the recipient. If that is so, the service will proceed.
  The hon. Member for Openshaw was very unfair and unreasonable in pointing to certain criticisms made in

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  Questions in the House about the postal service. It was an appalling statement for an hon. Member associated with the. Union of Post Office Workers. On both sides of the House there is a very profound feeling of gratitude to and appreciation of the postman. He is on the whole the friend of those whom he serves, and I think that a great part of the prestige of the British postal service arises entirely from the quality of the postman and his attitude towards his job. He still speaks of "going on duty," and to a postman it is a duty. Although after the war some rum ones were drafted into the service in various ways, this situation has now considerably improved and the postman is back on his old standard as a public servant who is immensely admired and who justifies that admiration. The hon. Member is wrong in assuming that because we criticise the proposal we are in any way critical of the postman or that because sometimes hon. Members have to draw attention to deficiencies, they are critical of the postman's work.
  I want now to say a word about the unfortunate circumstances in which this situation has arisen. The most unfortunate situation has been created by—
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
  House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
  Mr. Shepherd: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) for being instrumental in giving me a little rest in the middle of my speech and for having brought an added number of hon. Members to listen to my words of wisdom.
  I was saying that a good deal of the criticism about this unfortunate state of affairs can fairly be directed at the Union of Post Office Workers. It is, to say the least of it, extremely unfortunate that its executive did not take more steps to determine the attitude of its members to this service. My right hon. Friend was perfectly justified in taking the view that the service was approved of by the executive and had at least a reasonable chance of being approved of by the average postal worker. A good deal
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  of the criticism in this connection can be directed at the Union of Post Office Workers—
  Mr. C. Morris: Will the hon. Gentleman accept the fact that the executive council of the Union of Post Office Workers lid everything that any reasonable person could expect it to do? It took the views of the members on the question of the household delivery service. It then convened the annual conference of the Union and accepted the expressed decision and will of those present at it. There is this constant reiteration that it is the Union of Post Office Workers that is responsible for the atmosphere that now exists within the Post Office, but I say that the person responsible is the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General.
  Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Member is quite entitled to defend his own union—I would expect him to do that—but I repeat that it would have been at least desirable had the union taken more steps to ascertain its members' views, or, if it failed to do that, had taken the usual steps to manage the conference when it was convened [HON. MEMBERS: "Of."] It should have adopted one or other of those procedures.
  It is a little unkind of the hon. Gentleman to blame my right hon. Friend for accepting the word of the executive of the Union of Post Office Workers. In all the circumstances, it does not seem unreasonable that he should have done so—
  Mr. Manuel: The hon. Gentleman has said that the executive of the Union of Post Office Workers gave its word to the Postmaster-General. I hope he has some proof of that. The Postmaster-General has told the House that the executive stated its view, but for the hon. Gentleman to say that it gave the right hon. Gentleman its word is a vastly different thing.
  Mr. Shepherd: I would hope that, in this connection, "view" and "word" meant the same thing. When my right hon. Friend talks to the union he must sound its executive's views. He is entitled to say that those on the executive are responsible people who, when they give a view, give one consistent with what they truly think and feel. I do not think shat my right hon. Friend

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  was unreasonable in taking the view he did—
  Mr. Ross: The hon. Member must be aware that when the decision was taken by the Postmaster-General he knew the view of the whole union.
  Mr. Shepherd: My right hon. Friend was quite right to go ahead with this proposal, and I will tell the House why. I do not particularly like the idea of postmen delivering unaddressed packages. I wish it were possible to avoid their having to do it, but the House will appreciate that the Post Office is one of those activities in which the great cost is wages. The House must face that. Every year the postman comes along and wants more wages. I do not complain about that, but the fact remains that the postman wants more wages. Clearly, there is a limit to the extent to which increased efficiency in the Post Office can take account of and overcome the increased cost of wages. Therefore, if we are not to have a further rise in the cost of the postal services, we must have either greater efficiency each year or find some other source of revenue.
  I do not like this source of revenue. In a sense, it is not the sort of thing the postman necessarily wants to do. It is not the thing I should like to see him doing if we could run the Post Office and give these increased wages every year without it, but where we have a service in which a huge part of the cost is in wages, and those wages are increasing every year, my right hon. Friend has either to find increased efficiency in the service, or new services to work, or he must increase the cost of the postal services.
  I am bitterly opposed to any further increase in the cost of the postal services. I want to see that kept at its present level, but my right hon. Friend must get greater efficiency from the Post Office—
  Mr. Ross: This is one of the important matters. With whom must the Postmaster-General co-operate to achieve that efficiency? Surely, it is with the workers. The right hon. Gentleman knows that I have been concerned with this problem for a long time, because for about 16 years I have been a member of the Post Office Advisory
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  Council. I realise that the co-operation of the workers is absolutely essential to the solution of the Department's problem, and the fact of this service being introduced against the wishes of the workers will itself tend to worsen the situation when it comes to consideration of all these things.
  Mr. Shepherd: This may be introduced against the wish of some of the workers, but not of all the workers. I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is only with the co-operation of the postal workers that we shall get the increased efficiency that will make it possible to keep the cost of the postal services at least at their present level. I should not like to think that the dispute over this service will interfere with the long-term co-operation between my right hon. Friend and the Post Office workers.
  This has been an unfortunate matter, made the more unfortunate by the attempt to make political propaganda out of it. But I am convinced that it will not interfere with the postman's sense of duty, which is very strong, and his desire to co-operate with the Post Office in increasing efficiency. I am sure that the average postman knows that it is not a practical proposition to increase postal charges yet further, and that the only way we can get away from this grievous possibility is by increasing efficiency and finding new services.
  I hope that this will see the end of this dispute, and that we shall have these circulars delivered to those who want them and those who do not want them, so that we can see at the end of 12 months or two years what is the merit of this proposal. If it has commercial value it will continue and if it has not it will fail. All I ask hon. Members opposite is not to try to make further political propaganda at the expense of good relations between the Post Office workers and the Postmaster-General.
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: I can appreciate the difficulties with which hon. Members opposite are faced. After listening to the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd), I have great sympathy with him, because the speech which he has made was certainly

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  not up to his usual standard. I appreciate that when an hon. Member is doing a filibuster of this kind—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Members opposite are filibustering, as they know full well. That was the reason I called a Count, to see whether those for whom they were waiting would arrive. I appreciate the difficulties, and I think it essential that one or two hon. Members on this side should help them if they are not capable of conducting a filibuster properly.
  The question that we are faced with is whether, in pursuance of this alleged economic stability of the Post Office, we shall not so undermine the relationship between the Postmaster-General and the postmen as to seriously damage the postal services of the country. No matter what the hon. Member for Cheadle thinks, this is what the House has to face.
  I think that the Postmaster-General will admit that there has been a serious deterioration of the relationship between the Union of Post Office Workers and the Postmaster-General during recent months. I have experience of both nationalised and private industry and, in my view, no matter what else one does, it is impossible to maintain any degree of efficiency in any industrial or commercial unit unless there is a firm cooperation between management and workers.
  The introduction of this unstamped delivery service is unquestionably causing a great deal of concern to postmen. It is no good the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Gibson-Watt) saying that we have not had letters from constituents. I have.
  Mr. Bence: So have I.
  Mr. Loughlin: I have also had a special delegation at my home from postmen.
  Mr. Gibson-Watt: May I ask whether the hon. Member asked the postmen to see him, or whether they asked him to see them?
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. Loughlin: It is a fair question. I do not mind it being asked. It is possible for hon. Members to so frame and distort things as to be able to invite people. No doubt this is in the hon.
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  Member's mind because it is a practice in which he indulges when it suits his purpose. I assure him that the postman who called on me to discuss the subject with me, on behalf of his colleagues at the Coleford and Lydney post offices, was not invited by me to call at my home. He came entirely of his own volition, at the request of his colleagues, to discuss my attitude to this issue.
  I have had delegations from my constituency. I have had letters from my constituents. I received a delegation in the Palace of Westminster. They came from the Union of Post Office Workers, and perhaps, it was unfortunate that they did not put in a green card for the hon. Member for Hereford. I can assure the hon. Member that they left me in no doubt about their attitude towards this service.
  Has the Postmaster-General gone into this matter in the way he ought to have done? Let us be quite clear that there is a possibility of a breakdown of postal services if this service is introduced against the wishes and in opposition to postmen generally.
  Mr. Gibson-Watt: I wonder why it was that the hon. Member tried to put an end to the debate 10 minutes ago if it is of such importance?
  Mr. Loughlin: The trouble with the hon. Member is that he never gets a new idea. I dealt with that point two or three minutes ago, but if the hon. Member wants me to tell him again I will tell him. I knew that hon. Members opposite were hanging on to the debate until their colleagues had arrived, and all I wanted to do was to find out whether they had arrived.
  Mr. Bence: They have not all arrived yet.
  Mr. Loughlin: No, and some hon. Members opposite are still willing to do a filibuster. I said that I would help them out.
  To return to the point I was making, the Postmaster-General is in danger of undermining the efficiency of the postal services by the introduction of this new service because, if he cannot get the fullest co-operation of the postmen themselves, the normal delivery service may break down.
  There are some technical difficulties, about which the right hon. Gentleman

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  will know more than I do myself, but I wonder what would happen if, as the hon. Member for Cheadle suggests, all the people who want to advertise in one way or another or send samples use this service. Leaving aside for the moment the political organisations, Aims of Industry and the other pseudo-Tory organisations, which are likely to flood the mail in the next few weeks before the General Election, what will happen if there is a big demand for the service? What if it becomes a raging success?
  Is the Postmaster-General satisfied that, if it is a successful venture, he either has the staff now necessary to carry the service through or he will be able to engage sufficient of the right calibre of staff to do the job? Presumably, one must take it that the right hon. Gentleman would not wish to introduce the service if he did not think that it was going to he successful. If, in the first place, one undermines industrial relations with the existing staff of the Post Office. and, in the second place, one cannot convince the House of Commons that it will be possible to secure sufficient staff for the purpose, there ought to be second thoughts, even at this late stage.
  This is the problem which the Postmaster-General faces, and, if he cannot give the House assurances that, if the venture is successful, he can produce an adequacy of the right type of staff, it would be wrong for the House to give its consent to the introduction of the service.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: Supposing that the service were a great success, and supposing for a moment that the Opposition came into power, would they withdraw it, and the resulting funds, from the Post Office?
  Mr. Loughlin: That is a fair question. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman grins all over his face as he puts it. Perhaps he thinks that he is very clever. As far as I am concerned, it is a fair question, though hypothetical. If the service were a terrific success, and if we were able to overcome the objections which I am at the moment putting to the Postmaster-General, it would be wrong for a Government to discontinue it.
  But this is not the point. We would then be acting in accordance with ex-
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  perience, and anybody undertaking a commercial venture must be able to assess the degree of difficulty likely to be encountered in the introduction of a service. I am posing not what may happen in two years' time, but the problems which may arise from the Postmaster-General's actions.
  I hope that the Postmaster-General will answer these two questions. First, is he satisfied that he can pursue a service on the basis of a lack of co-operation on the part of the people who are to operate it? Secondly, is he satisfied that, in the event of the service being successful, he will be able to find adequate staff to maintain it in its entirety?
  I now turn to consider the people who are to receive these documents.
  Mr. Manuel: That is the most important part.
  Mr. Loughlin: It is equally important as the points raised by the hon. Member for Cheadle.
  Suppose I do not want these documents and want to discourage people from delivering such matter as this. Right hon. Members opposite have always argued that an Englishman's home is his castle and that there should not be any infringement of the Englishman's privacy. My home begins at my gate, and I have a right to say who shall come in that gate and what shall be brought within it. If I do not want the postman to deliver to me circulars advertising various types of deodorants—which, I may conclude, is a veiled insult to me—and similar types of literature. I should be able to say that I do not want them.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: How does the hon. Member stop the Post Office putting through unwanted telephone calls?
  Mr. Loughlin: I do not get unwanted telephone calls. I get inconvenient telephone calls. I live in my constituency and my constituents ring me up at hours when I think they should not do so—perhaps at ten minutes to ten on a Saturday evening, and sometimes later, when the problem is an acute one to them.
  Mr. J. B. Symonds: My hon. Friend has been asked about unwanted telephone calls. Would not they be paid for at the full price?
  Mr. Loughlin: I hope that my hon. Friend will have sufficient confidence in my ability to deal with interventions.
  As I say, I have never had an unwanted telephone call in my life. No doubt, like the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. F. Harris), if he lives in his constituency, I have a constant barrage of telephone calls, but I recognise that the difficulty with which my constituent is faced, trivial though it may sometimes appear to me, is most important to him. As my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Symonds) has so ably pointed out, the calls are paid for at the full rate.
  Mr. Shepherd: Will the hon. Member help me out by telling me how he draws the final moral distinction between a circular which is put in a 3d. or a 2½d. envelope and one which has no stamp?
  Mr. Loughlin: I do not draw the moral distinction at all. What I know is that the number of circulars that come to me already in this type of post when they have been paid for is too many. I get far too much advertising in my post and I do not see why I should spend my time dealing with it, even if it is merely opening the envelope, reading the contents and throwing them away. I am afraid that I will be deluged by pamphlets of this kind if the service is introduced.
  Why is it being introduced? The hon. Member for Cheadle says that I should draw a moral distinction from the type of litera ture which I now get in the 3d. or 2½d. post. I object to that type of literature, but what I object to even more is that the Postmaster-General is making it easier for me to receive a far greater measure of this type of literature than I receive now.
  This may be illegal, but if my constituents take my advice they will put the literature into an envelope, seal it, address it to the senders and put it back in post boxes unstamped. That is the way to deal with it. If the Postmaster-General institutes a service that I am not desirous of enduring, which will enable any commercial organisation to
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  send documents to my home, which consider to be an infringement of my privacy, and into the homes of my constituents, which is an infringement also of their privacy, the only way they can deal with them is to send them back to the people who sent them to them and to let those persons pay the surcharge.
  Mrs. E. M. Braddock: Would it not be easier to cross out "The Occupier" and readdress it to the Postmaster-General? I have already done this. I received two, one for myself and one for my husband, who died in November, so I readdressed them in that way. I do not know whether the Postmaster-General has yet had them. I am advising my constituents. and I am entitled to do so, not to put these things in a 3d. envelope, but simply to cross out "The Occupier" and send them to the Postmaster-General and let him have a go.
  Mr. Bevins Mr. Bevins rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. We do not allow interventions upon interventions.
  Mr. Loughlin: The point about my suggestion is that this material will be sent to me, I understand, without an envelope. Instead of being civil servants, men with a degree of dignity, postmen will be degraded into leaflet distributors. These circulars are to be sent to me without envelopes. If I am asked to put them into envelopes and address them to the right hon. Gentleman I might just as well send them back to those who infringed my privacy. Sending them back to the right hon. Gentleman will simply mean their going into the waste paper basket. If I return them to the senders unstamped, they will go through the Post Office services, producing the biggest possible blockage of the works. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] This is not a new suggestion. What I am saying about it now may well give additional publicity to it, but it has been suggested before and, no doubt, will be used extensively.
  The right hon. Gentleman is introducing this delivery in face of the fiercest opposition of those who are to operate it. The hon. Member for Cheadle said that the union executive was consulted by the Postmaster-General. But in all

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  negotiations union officials meet the employers representatives first. They may agree with a proposal in principle, but they still have to take it back to their members.
  There is no rigging at a union conference. It is not like the Tory Party conference. One cannot rig a union conference as the hon. Member for Cheadle suggested that the Post Office workers should have rigged their conference. The lads in the trade union movement are as suspicious of union officials as they are of employers when it comes to accepting any proposals.
  Mr. Bence: No.
  Mr. Loughlin: My hon. Friend says "No", but it is a healthy attitude for trade unionists to take. I think that I can claim, however, that I had no difficulty with my members. I had their confidence. Nevertheless, I hope they were always suspicious when I presented a proposal to them. The national executive of the Union of Post Office Workers was correct in telling the right hon. Gentleman that it agreed with this proposal in principle, but the people who determine the union's policy are the members.
  Even at this stage, if the men in the Post Office do not want this Household Delivery Service—and they are not likely to co-operate on it with the right hon. Gentleman—it is incumbent upon him to have the courage to withdraw it.
  9.30 p.m.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Those who have listened to the debate tonight wonder why it is taking place at all. Most of the arguments which have been put forward were put forward, at greater or lesser length, in last week's debate. I want to examine the attitude of mind of hon. Members opposite, and to try to understand what has caused them to oppose this scheme. I believe that it is partly sheer Luddism, partly anti-commercial advertising, and partly anti-modernisation.
  The hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) referred to the Postmaster-General as not having obtained the approval of the Post Office union. That is an important point to make. But it would be a great mistake to follow it up—as he almost suggested—by saying
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  that the Post Office union, which, I agree, is a very responsible one, should have the right to veto something put forward by the Post Office.
  My right hon. Friend was quite right to consult the union on this scheme, over a period of eight months. He would have been the subject of criticism if he had not done so, but we cannot accept an argument that the union should have the right to veto a commercial proposition put forward by the Post Office.
  I welcomed the view of the hon. Member that once this matter has been fought out in the House by political action it will be wrong for the union to engage in industrial action, but my hon. Friends and I resented his suggestion that the Tory Party had attempted to introduce this proposal so as to evade the provisions of the Representation of the People Act. In effect, that is what he said, and it is an extremely serious allegation. I attempted to interrupt him at that point in his speech to ask him to substantiate his allegation, but he would not give way.
  Mr. Will Howie: Does not the hon. Member agree that if the Government introduce a scheme which gives one party an advantage over the other—which alters the balance between the two parties and allows the friends of one party more easily to put over its propaganda—that is really providing a way round the provisions of the Representation of the People Act, and is a deplorable thing?
  Mr. Stratton Mills: I am grateful to the hon. Member for that intervention, but it has not been substantiated that this is what will happen as a result of my right hon. Friend's scheme. There are other leaflets. I have never noticed any lack of resources on the part of some of the large trade unions. They are entitled to put out what documents they wish within the provisions of these Regulations. The hon. Member for Barnsley made this serious allegation, and if it is to be made from the Opposition Front Bench it ought to be substantiated. It was not substantiated this evening.
  The other interesting thing about the debate is that to some extent we are reversing the normal political situation. Usually, it is the Labour Party which wishes to extend the work of public

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  authorities. It says, "Let the air corporations do additional work; do not let private enterprise muscle in."
  Mr. E. Fernyhough; Does not the hon. Member agree that his party does the opposite all the time, and says that public enterprise should not extend its activities?
  Mr. Stratton Mills: That interruption illustrates the danger of giving way. The hon. Member has anticipated the trend of my argument. The party opposite says, "Do not shut down the railway workshops. Let them continue their commercial activities." It is suggested that they should be allowed to manufacture rolling stock, for example. Hon. Members on this side are accused of opposing any such extension. So it may be said that tonight, to some extent, we have changed sides. It is odd that hon. Members opposite should be attacking a proposal to give a public authority an opportunity to compete on fair terms with private enterprise.
  Another relevant point which has not been sufficiently ventilated is that in 1938 the postage rate was 1½d. Today, it is 3d. But if the postage rate had kept pace with the cost of living it would now be nearer 6d. That is a tribute to the efficiency of the Post Office and to my right hon. Friend, who has made a considerable effort to keep down postage costs so that our postal rate compares favourably with that of other countries in Western Europe.
  It would be harmful to interfere, as hon. Members opposite are attempting to do, with the extension of the commercial activities of the Post Office. It is not only a question, as has been suggested, of the £300,000 profit which would result from this service, and which is most important. There is also the substantial contribution which the turnover of the service will make in meeting the Post Office overheads.
  Mr. Manuel: I recognise that the hon. Gentleman is trying to build up a case in a sensible way. Would not he agree that we should seriously consider the proposition that circulars which are delivered all over the country are unwanted by householders? Is he aware
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  that many monopoly firms deliver them by engaging labour on a day rate, and that this is regarded as distasteful work.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: The hon. Gentleman has anticipated a point which I was proposing to make.
  I wish to emphasise the importance of gaining as much revenue as possible for the Post Office in order to keep down the cost of other services. If it were found that this service interfered with the normal postal services—there is, as yet, no evidence of that—but were that the price of having this service, I should be against it. It is up to this House to give the Post Office a chance to see whether it can operate this service and still maintain the efficiency of other Post Office services.
  Every day I find something in my letterbox which has been distributed by commercial organisations. I never read any of them. Most of them are commercial—
  Mr. Loughlin: How does the hon. Gentleman know that if he does not read them?
  Mr. Stratton Mills: It is possible to tell at a glance the difference between an insurance leaflet and a Labour Party pamphlet.
  The important point is that I do not know who has delivered this literature. Shall I know, after this service is in operation, whether it has been delivered by the postman or by the employee of a firm unless I actually see it delivered? I suggest that some hon. Members opposite are being a little thin-skinned on this point. It is a fundamental human right to be able to throw away this advertising literature unread. This, I think, is essentially a fundamental human right, but it will be in no way interfered with by the scheme which my right hon. Friend has proposed.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to give us an assurance this evening that if one puts a notice above one's letterbox saying "No circulars" that will be given attention to by the Post Office. There is a much greater chance of having control and assurance that this would not be disregarded if the service is carried on by the Post Office than it may be if it is carried on by commercial firms, some of whom may

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  be reputable but some not. It is only fair to give the Post Office a chance to show that it can engage in this scheme and compete effectively with private firms.
  9.41 p.m.
  The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): We have had a good-humoured and lighthearted debate this evening, and I am grateful to hon. Members on both sides of the House for contributions which they have made. I promise the House that nothing I say—and I have not been provoked this evening by hon. Members opposite—will sour the atmosphere of this debate.
  Since we had the second round of this controversy in this House last week, talks have taken place between the executive of the Union of Post Office Workers and my officials, talks which have taken place in a very amicable atmosphere. They have covered a wide range of operational factors concerned with this service. My people have made a certain number of operational concessions and will discuss other possibilities with the union in the near future. I say that to the House because it is important in the case of a new service like this, which is bound to have teething troubles during its early stages, that we should be able to show that we are prepared to give-and-take and to behave like reasonable people.
  I also want to assure the House that there will be no deterioration whatever in normal postal services, but at the same time this new service, for reasons very eloquently stated by several of my hon. Friends tonight, will go on. I take up a small point made by the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. C. Morris), who took a rather unhappy view of the expenditure of the Post Office on advertising the postal service. I think he felt that expenditure was a waste of money. I have never felt so nor has my Department, nor indeed has the Union of Post Office Workers, who were enthusiastic supporters of this advertising campaign.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden) made one of his typically wise and witty speeches. I am indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) and my hon. Friend the Mem-
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  ber for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills), who have taken such a close interest in Post Office affairs and spoke so incisively this evening.
  I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) is not in his place, because I wanted to congratulate him not only on the lucidity of his speech, but also on, for him, its unusual brevity. I thought he made a very wise remark when he commented on the capacity of people outside this House to comment on the doings of politicians and political parties when things go wrong, because then, of course, they happen to have news value.
  One of the curious things in this life is that when Lord Robens is able to make quite a modest profit on the coal industry songs of praise appear in all the newspapers, and when Dr. Beeching reduces a fantastic loss on the railways to a slightly less fantastic one he also has praise heaped on his head, but if I as a political animal were to announce in this House tonight the financial profit which the Post Office will probably make during the current financial year I, being a politician, would get nothing but brickbats from outside this House. This applies to both parties.
  On Tuesday of last week the House rejected an Opposition Motion to exclude from the new service political literature and other highly contentious matter. I realise that several of the speeches which were made in that debate expressed objections to the service in general. Even so, I think that it is a reasonable inference that at that time the Opposition as a whole at least acquiesced in the decision to introduce the new service as such, otherwise there is no reason why they should not have elected to pray against these Regulations last week instead of tonight. Of course, had they done so successfully, they would have killed the service and automatically, in the process, would have halted the distribution of unaddressed political leaflets. After all, the greater includes the less even in this place.
  Having failed to persuade the House to accept their limited Motion, they have decided this evening that they do not want the service at all. What I do not understand is why it should be supposed

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  that the House, having refused to swallow the gnat, will find even more digestible the camel which it has been offered tonight.
  Even so, I welcome the opportunity which this debate gives me to try to clear up once and for all—and I hope that it is once and for all—any doubt which may remain in hon. Member's minds as to the value of this new service.
  Mr. J. J. Mendelson: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to deceive the House. He will recall that my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) made it clear in the earlier debate that there is a strong view in favour of opposing the service as a whole, but, anticipating that the House might approve the service, he wanted to mitigate some of the damage which it would do in this respect.
  Mr. Bevins: If that were the sincerely held view of the right hon. Member for Belper—and I do not question that it was—then the Motion put down by Her Majesty's Opposition ought to have been framed in much broader terms than it was last Tuesday.
  Before I come to the substance of my case I want to refer to one small slip made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West because he appeared to think that if this Prayer were carried, which I believe is most unlikely, the effect would be that the Household Delivery Service itself would go by the board and nothing else in particular would happen.
  It is my duty to tell the House that the Prayer itself is not directed solely against this service. It is directed against the whole of the inland postal services of this country. I am legally advised that if the Prayer were successful, then tomorrow there would be no legal basis whatever for carrying on a postal service in this country. I therefore hope that hon. Members opposite will reflect well on what they are doing and will consider that if they force this issue to a Division, they are liable to go down in history not only as the party which wanted to introduce political censorship into the Post Office but, worse still, as the Party which wanted to abolish the Post Office altogether.
  Mr. Mason: The right hon. Gentleman does not want to mislead the House, nor is he a political innocent. In effect, if we succeeded in our vote against the 1963 Post Office Regulations we should revert to the 1962 Regulations, the only difference being that the new service is not embodied in the 1962 Regulations.
  Mr. Bevins: The hon. Gentleman has not taken the best legal advice. I have been to extreme lengths to find out what the exact legal position is, and I assure the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends that when I state a legal opinion, although I am not a legal man myself, it is invariably right.
  I come to the case which has been deployed from the Opposition benches tonight—here I want to be quite serious, because this is a serious subject—on the question whether the service is necessary at all. The hon. Member for Barnsley said that he was against innovations of this sort that smacked of commercialism. I am surprised that he should take this view. I am surprised for two reasons. First, we all know that the practice for firms and organisations in this country to use outside agencies for postal deliveries has been growing at the expense of the Post Office over the last ten years. Secondly, a proportion of second-class mail is not at present handled in the most efficient way by the Post Office itself.
  Let me illustrate this to the House. It often happens that people, firms, organisations, want to communicate with large numbers of people and sometimes, indeed, to communicate with all the people in either a given town or a given part of a town or city. It is surely right that the Post Office should try to meet this need in the most efficient way possible.
  I should like the House to think for a moment or two about what has happened in the past and what can happen under the new service. When one of our customers says to us now, "I have 50,000 leaflets or circulars, and I want you to deliver one to each house in a certain locality", what does the Post Office do? In the past we have said, "That is fine, but first you must address the circulars or leaflets to the occupier of each house at which you want one delivered. You must put on a 2½d. stamp or meter-frank the envelope, and then hand the packets

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  over to the Post Office". The Post Office would then have to go through the chore of sorting them into the order in which they are to be delivered. They would then be taken out by postmen in the ordinary course of their work. Because of the work we have to do in sorting, the probability is that the Post Office would barely cover its costs. It is the fact that at this moment we are losing about £1½ million a year on second class mail. This existing system can be a burden not only to our customers. It can also be a financial burden as a losing service to the Post Office.
  What happens, by contrast, under the new service? The leaflets or circulars, or whatever they may happen to be, are handed over in bulk. There is no laborious addressing. There are no envelopes to be paid for. There are no stamps to be stuck on. There is no metering to be done. At the end of the day there is a rebate of up to 50 per cent. in the charge to the Post Office's customers. On our side there is no sorting. Postmen take them out and deliver them just as they would have done had they been addressed. The Post Office into the bargain will make a profit out of this business. Therefore, this new service is advantageous all round—not only to the Post Office, and therefore to the public financially, but also to our customers.
  Some hon. Members have queried whether the need for this service really exists. Long before this service was ever introduced—when I say "long before" I mean about four years ago—all sorts of inquiries were made of various organisations. Inquiries were made abroad. There was every indication that this was a service which would be a useful addition to the services which we give to the public.
  One or two hon. Gentlemen have repeated the allegation this evening that the delivery of this matter would be somehow or other degrading to the postmen.
  I can well understand the view that postmen would not wish to be regarded as distributors of mere throw-away literature, but this is not throw-away literature. This is not a service on the dirt cheap, and the vast majority of
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  postmen in the service of the G.P.O. are sensible people who, after a little experience of this service, will, I am convinced, come to realise why it in no way detracts from the dignity of their main task of ensuring the correct delivery of the nation's first-class mail.
  On the estimates of my advisers, during the first year we will probably deliver about 150 million of these leaflets and circulars. This means about 15 unaddressed leaflets for every 1,000 addressed items.
  The hon. Member for Barnsley accused me of having made a hasty decision and of having introduced the service precipitantly. That is a most extraordinary allegation. I have been Postmaster-General for more than four years and one of my first acts after taking office was to set up a study of the possibilities of this service, among others. This study was completed in 1962 and early in 1963 I was ready to go ahead with the service.
  Proposals were put to the staff associations, but because the executive of the Union of Post Office Workers wished to consult its membership at its annual conference in May last year I agreed, at the request of the union, to postpone the introduction of the service until that consultation took place. As the House knows, the conference rejected the executive's recommendation that it should co-operate in the setting up of the service and, once again—since I had no wish to be provocative—I decided to delay still further the introduction of the service.
  The time came, nine months after that decision, that, in fairness not only to the customers of the Post Office but the public at large—who, after all, will benefit financially from this scheme—I decided that I could not go on deferring for ever. I decided, therefore, to introduce the scheme last month; and this was almost a year after I had formally approached the union. This delay may have cost the Post Office as much as £¼ million.
  I am always prepared to discuss this and other matters with any of the Post Office unions, but at the same time—as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North pointed out—it would be wholly wrong if any Minister were prepared to be dictated to by a sectional

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  interest in a matter of this kind. To be fair to the Union of Post Office Workers, I am sure that any sense of dictation has never been in its mind.
  Several hon. Members have referred to the question of profitability. I expect that this will prove to be a good thing for the Post Office. In the first year we reckon that our revenue will be rather less than £1 million and on that we expect to make a profit of about £300,000. That is worth while and I think that I would be failing in my duty if I were to fail to introduce this scheme.
  The hon. Member for Barnsley—and, I suppose naturally, other hon. Members opposite—have referred again to the inequity of our accepting political leaflets for distribution by the service. Only last week the House rejected, and rejected decisively, the Opposition objections to this part of the scheme, and I think that I should be guilty of discourtesy to the House if I dealt at any great length with those issues this evening.
  I should just like to say one final word. The Post Office as we now know it was established 300 years ago. During the whole of that time it has carried the literature, the arguments and the propaganda of every political party, every sect and every faction in the country, and never until now has there been the smallest suggestion that the Post Office was wrong to do so. It has taken the Labour Party, a party which prides itself on its democratic principles, to be the first to advocate political censorship of the mails, a doctrine which has not found support in a single national newspaper or, indeed, in a single commentary of Socialist opinion in the country, and which will certainly find no support in the House tonight.
  Mr. Ross: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, he made rather serious remarks at the start about the effect of having a Division. Will he tell me exactly what Regulation 57 means? It says:
  "The Regulations mentioned in Schedule 8 are hereby revoked."
  If the Prayer were carried, they would not be revoked. It is as simple as that. The right hon. Gentleman should not mislead the House.
  Mr. Bevins: I do not want to weary the House, but out of courtesy to the hon. Gentleman, who a moment ago was so courteous to me, perhaps I might tell him—this is not my opinion but an eminent legal opinion—that the Regulations could not be annulled in part. A successful Prayer would kill the whole of the Regulations.
  Mr. Ross: Including 57?
  Mr. Bevins: According to Section 5(1) of the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, if the House resolves that an Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that an Instrument be annulled, then no further proceedings shall be taken thereunder after the date of the Resolution. The opinion goes on to say that the effect of a Resolution would be that until fresh Regulations were made there would, in effect, be no Regulations relating to the inland postal service, and the most difficult consequence would be that the postal charges made in the meantime would be without legal authority.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 137, Noes 204.

  Division No. 22.]

  AYES

  [10.3 p.m.

  Ainsley, William

  Callaghan, James

  Fitch, Alan

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Foley, Maurice

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central)

  Collick, Percy

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Barnett, Guy

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Grey, Charles

  Beaney, Alan

  Dalyell, Tam

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Bence, Cyril

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Benn, Anthony Wedgwood

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Diamond, John

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Blackburn, F.

  Dodds, Norman

  Hannan, William

  Blyton, William

  Doig, Peter

  Harper, Joseph

  Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S. W.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Boyden, James

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Evans, Albert

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Holman, Percy

  Houghton, Douglas

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Howie, W. (Luton)

  Millan, Bruce

  Snow, Julian

  Hoy, James H.

  Milne, Edward

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Monslow, Walter

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Morris, Charles (Openshaw)

  Steele, Thomas

  Hunter, A. E.

  Morris, John

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Neal, Harold

  Stonehouse, John

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Stones, William

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Symonds, J. B.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Oram, A. E.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Thornton, Ernest

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Paget, R. T.

  Tomney, Frank

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Parker, John

  Wainwright, Edwin

  King, Dr. Horace

  Parkin, B. T.

  Warbey, William

  Lawson, George

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Weitzman, David

  Ledger, Ron

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Pentland, Norman

  Whitlock, William

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Rankin, John

  Willey, Frederick

  Loughlin, Charles

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Rhodes, H.

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  McBride, N.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Winterbottom, R. E.

  MacColl, James

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  McInnes, James

  Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)

  Woof, Robert

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Ross, William

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Mahon, Simon

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Manuel, Archie

  Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

  Mr. Redhead and Mr. McCann.

  Mason, Roy

  Small, William

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Elliott, R.W.(Newc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Emery, Peter

  Longbottom, Charles

  Allason, James

  Farr, John

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Anderson, D. C.

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Lubbook, Eric

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Foster, John

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

  Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Balniel, Lord

  Gammans, Lady

  McLaren, Martin

  Barlow, Sir John

  Gardner, Edward

  McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

  Barter, John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Batsford, Brian

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, w.)

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Goodhew, Victor

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Gough, Frederick

  Maddan, Martin

  Bidgood, John C.

  Gower, Raymond

  Maginnis, John E.

  Biffen, John

  Grant-Ferris, R.

  Maitland, Sir John

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Green, Alan

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Bishop, F. P.

  Grosvenor, Lord Robert

  Marten, Neil

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Gurden, Harold

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Halt, John (Wycombe)

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Brewis, John

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Maude, Angus (Stratford-on-Avon)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mills, Stratton

  Bryan, Paul

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Buck, Antony

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Bullard, Denys

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Hendry, Forbes

  Morrison, John

  Channon, H. P. C.

  Hiley, Joseph

  Mott-Radclyfle, Sir Charles

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

  Neave, Airey

  Clarke, Brig. Terence(Portsmth, W.)

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Quintin

  Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

  Cooke, Robert

  Holland, Philip

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon, Dame P.

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K,

  Howard, Hon. C. R. (St. Ives)

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Cordle, John

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Partridge, E.

  Corfield, F. V.

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Pearson, Frank (Ciltheroe)

  Costain, A. P.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Peel, John

  Coulson, Michael

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Percival, Ian

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Jackson, John

  Peyton, John

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  James, David

  Pitt, Dame Edith

  Crowder, F. P.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Dance, James

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

  Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Pym, Francis

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kirk, Peter

  Quennell, Miss J, M.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Doughty, Charles

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Renton, Rt. Hon. David

  Duncan, Sir James

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carehaton)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut' nC' dfield)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Wade, Donald

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Wall, Patrick

  Roots, William

  Tapsell, Peter

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Russell, Ronald

  Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, S.)

  Webster, David

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

  Teeling, Sir William

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Temple, John M.

  Whitelaw, William

  Sharples, Richard

  Thompson, Sir, Richard (Croydon S.)

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Shaw, M.

  Thornton-Kentsley, Sir Colin

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Shepherd, William

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Wise, A. R.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Speir, Rupert

  Turner, Colin

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Stainton, Keith

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Woollam, John

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Worsley, Marcus

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Stodart, J. A.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Mr. Finlay and Mr. MacArthur.

  SMOKING
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. W. Elliott.]
  10.13 p.m.
  Mr. Laurence Pavitt: This is the second time today that I have had the good fortune to be able to address the House on a small facet of a large problem. On the first occasion, I was well aware that I had only ten minutes in which to speak. About 7.30 this evening, for a glorious quarter of an hour, I thought that I should have unlimited time at my disposal, but I now speak with the usual enemy, time, standing behind my shoulder.
  I do not have to convince the House about the facts on the added hazards to health from smoking. These things are common knowledge, but I seek to persuade the Minister for Science that there is urgent need for an increased appreciation of the value of research into the reasons why people smoke, the difficulties they have when they stop smoking, and the whole background to the basic problem of the increasing number of people who are suffering illness because many years ago they contracted the habit of smoking.
  The figures which hon. Members keep giving in this Chamber on the subject are becoming and. I gave daily and weekly figures earlier in the Session of the number of deaths from lung cancer. The fact that there were 26,383 last year is sufficiently frightening to make us realise the gravity of the situation. I should like to quote from a Report on "Smoking and Health" by the Surgeon-General of the United States Public Health Service, which was published recently. The Report states on page 302 that
  "Cigarette smoking is the most important of the causes of chronic bronchitis in the United States …"
  In this country, 30·8 million days were lost to production through bronchitis, much of which was caused by smoking. From the same Report, page 327: "It is established that male cigarette smokers have a much higher death-rate from coronary diseases." These facts are common knowledge, and I do not
  512
  think that the Minister queries them; and in Britain last year we lost 31·3 million days of production through people being absent because of disorders of the circulatory system.
  It emerges clearly from the American Report that so much clinical and medical research has been done on the subject that it is no longer necessary to tackle the problem from that angle but there is need for social and psychological research. The Report says that there is overwhelming evidence pointing to the conclusion
  "that smoking—its beginning, habituation, and occasional discontinuation—is to a large extent psychologically and socially determined."
  It is to that area that the Minister should address the minds of people who are engaged in research, because in that area results might be forthcoming.
  I would mention to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the kind of thing one comes across if one is a member of a hospital management committee. There is the recent example of a man whom I shall call Michael X, a postman aged 49. A report on him says that
  "In April, 1963 he developed a hoarse cough, A routine chest X-ray and subsequent special tests showed that he had lung cancer. It was inoperable. He began smoking at about 14, and smoked approximately 15 to 20 cigarettes a day. He married late in life, he had two children, a son aged 2½ and a daughter 1 year old. As his health failed their future support and care caused him much concern. He died within four months."
  I have many reports which I cannot give to the House but which I should be only too pleased to give to the Minister. I have a report on a Mr. H, which concludes:
  "At 69 he is a man who for the last four to five years has been an invalid entirely dependent upon his wife and his medical advisers in his struggle with his shrinking lung capacity and vitality."
  It is in these circumstances that the Guardian on 22nd January said:
  "The proper aim of Government is to reduce the number of deaths caused by the cigarettes that are smoked at present."
  I remind the Minister of the statement made on behalf of the Government on 27th June, 1957, when Government policy was laid down. This is the point we have reached by today's debate, and the question now is what kind of action the Government can take in face of all

  513
  the existing prejudices and set attitudes on this subject. I would ask, in particular, whether it is possible that by added research into what causes people to smoke and to continue to smoke we might find the answer to the question of how we may find acceptable substitutes.
  First, I suggest, that we must have research to find the causes. What happens, for instance, at the stress of adolescence? We all know of the reports which reveal the amount of smoking at school. What serious research is being undertaken into this aspect of the matter, particularly in the light of the fact that it is Government policy to prevent young people smoking?
  Next, what can replace the social gesture which, in some way, is of value to the smoker? What are the psychological origins of smoking? A smoker meeting a stranger for the first time is able to offer a cigarette and immediately they are en rapport. What can one do, in overcoming the smoking habit, as a substitute for what seems to be a necessary social gesture? What kind of behaviour patterns should be developed? How far is it habituation and how far is it addiction? What kind of results can be achieved on these factors, and what are the mental and physical consequences of being deprived of smoking?
  One particular field of research which calls for attention relates particularly to women and the terrific upset which occurs in a woman who has been a habitual smoker and who, at the time of the menopause, gives up smoking. What evidence do we have of the mental reactions taking place then, with all the other changes going on and the additional stress of trying to give up the smoking habit? Sometimes, of course, the reactions are such that women have to have treatment in the psychiatric wards of our hospitals and in some circumstances it may be a doctor's duty to advise continuation of smoking.
  There is, then, the question of occupational needs and urges. The long-distance lorry driver smokes, on average, 30 or 40 cigarettes a day. Why? Is not this a proper subject of research in a study of social behaviour and needs, so that we may make further progress in solving the problem at its root?
  514
  How does a person, once having acquired the habit, break it? The Minister of Health told us the other day that there are about 30 anti-smoking clinics established. I have the good fortune to have one in the hospital with which I am connected. How many research assistants has the Minister for Science allocated to look into what is going on? What kind of results are being achieved, and why? What is the assessment of the information gained, and how much exchange of information is there among all the various research units? Does this side of it come under the Minister for Science and the Medical Research Council, or does it come under the Minister of Health?
  Why is the only project promoted by the Government promoted by the Central Office of Information which is now studying what happens as a result of stopping the smoking habit? Does the Minister allocate resources to the Central Office of Information for this purpose? How many people are there in the research team at work? What kind of link does this project have with his Ministry and with the Ministry of Health?
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman gave me a reply on 21st January, which I thought quite staggering. He said:
  "I am quite satisfied that there is adequate research. What I am not sure about is that there are adequate answers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21s January, 1964; Vol. 687, c. 905.]
  The whole point of research is to find answers. If one knows the answers, one needs no research. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has the wrong approach to the problem. Research is needed in the first place to find out what are the best lines to pursue.
  I recall some comments made on the book Science and Politics which the Minister himself wrote. In a review of it, Professor Haddow, one of the outstanding figures in cancer research in this country, said that the Minister in his book
  "is right in saying that science is not something to which rulers can dictate, that while they can repress or starve it they cannot make it live … While perhaps technically correct, the last argument could be used as a dangerous anodyne for inaction."
  I suspect that the Minister is, in fact, suffering from inaction in this matter.

  515
  Should not the Minister influence the policy of the Medical Research Council? Or is he adopting the policy of just playing the favourites? Is he putting all the emphasis on projects most likely to succeed? He knows as well as I do that there is an enormous amount of pharmacological research now going on into oral contraceptives. Indeed, the work being done on this subject is probably greater than any other medical research now proceeding; it must be duplicated almost a hundred times. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) said so well on the B.B.C. yesterday, the most neglected field of research is that directed to the psychological and mental factors leading to illness. It is precisely in this field that there is need for research in connection with smoking.
  We are so often bogged down in a mass of prejudice and argument. I have no doubt that the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself has come across this in his own experience. One has a group of people trying to discuss the subject scientifically and rationally, but two hardened smokers among them who have a guilt complex about it feel that they must defend smoking to the last.
  We are neglecting this research at a time when stress and nervous strain are, perhaps, presenting the greatest problems in illness which our country faces today. There has been a complete change from the old illnesses to the new. Part of the "brains drain" about which we hear so much results, I suggest, from the rather stultified approach of this Government to research in new and sometimes difficult fields.
  I suggest that it is because of the Government's failure to play a positive part in some of these "off-beat" areas that the initiative has been lacking and the areas of need neglected. One such area, I submit, is the one I put to the Minister in the Question which I asked on 21st January, namely, that there is a need for research into the compulsive urges to smoke to find out what people get out of smoking and to examine ways whereby any real needs which emerge can be satisfied in a less harmful way. I hope that the Minister, who I know is not unsympathetic to this cause, will
  516
  have second, third and fourth thoughts about ways and means of giving some effect to research in this field.
  10.25 p.m.
  Mr. W. A. Wilkins: We are always interested to hear the views of the people who represent the anti-smoking campaign in this House. It is not for me to deny either their right to put them or, in their opinion, the necessity to put them. I do not wish to be unduly critical about the attitude which they show towards smoking, and especially its effect on health. I wish to complain, as I have done before, that in their fanatical attitude towards smoking they forget other things which, in my opinion, are equally damaging to the human constitution.
  I can never understand why they single out this one industry for attack when they never come here and attack the brewers and tell us how many thousands of people—and I have a figure in mind, which I will not quote, because I am not certain that it is accurate—are the victims of alcoholism every year in this country. I believe that it is a very substantial figure. They always quote in aid what is happening in the United States. Anyone who has visited the United States knows quite well that Americans are absolutely obsessed with what I call the three "C"s—capitalism, Communism and cancer—and run a vast campaign in their newspapers sponsored by all sorts of extremely wealthy people. They single out smoking for their line of attack.
  These victims, who may never have taken alcohol at all, are, in my judgment, encouraged to take alcohol by what I believe to be advertisements which very often verge on the fraudulent. No attack is ever made on them in this House.
  Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Nonsense.
  Mr. Wilkins: This is my complaint about my hon. Friends. They never come here and make complaints of this character. They quote the case of a lorry driver into whom they think research should be made because he smokes thirty cigarettes a day, and they want to know the reason for it. The reason is simple of explanation. It is for the same reason that I smoke a

  517
  pipe. I often find it a great companion when I am on my own. I do not know whether other smokers feel the same. It very often relieves monotony.
  I wonder to what extent we have a right to try to dictate to people what their habits should be. Why should my hon. Friends tell me that I should not be able to smoke my pipe? It is my business, and it will be my funeral if as a result I kill myself. But surely I have a right to exercise my own judgment about whether it is doing harm to me. I ask my hon. Friends a simple question: why do they want to dictate to other people what they should do, not only with their lives but with their money? If they propose to attack this section of industry in this country, why do not they attack other sections which, in my opinion, are equally lethal?
  Many years ago I worked with a gentleman on one of the Bristol newspapers who used to boast to me that every night and lunchtime he had his two pints of beer in the "pub". Saturday night was his great night out. This was the night that he had a real "go" and he had nine pints. He was always demonstrating to me how healthy he was until, as suddenly as a clap of thunder, he found himself in hospital. He had to be operated upon for a very serious condition, and he died. The surgeon said that his kidneys—I think it was his kidneys, but it may have been his liver—had been entirely destroyed.
  Mr. Robert Cooke: Are there no breweries in the hon. Member's constituency?
  Mr. Wilkins: That is an exceedingly insulting remark when I am trying to put a sincere point of view. If the hon. Member had been here for the rest of the debate his remarks might have been relevant.
  I ask my hon. Friend, why does he not attack many other things which are causes of death?
  10.31 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science (Mr. Quintin Hogg): I thought that when I answered this debate I should be answering an attack upon the failure either of myself or of one of the Research Councils to
  518
  research adequately into the psychological causes of smoking. I was a little surprised to hear the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Wilkins) say that he had never heard an attack in this House made upon the brewers or alcoholism. In this reincarnation I am a relatively new Member, but I recall that some years ago things must have been very different. Attacks on alcoholism and brewers were by no means unheard of when I was here before.
  I would say to the hon. Member for Bristol, South that the fact that alcohol may do you a lot of harm does not mitigate from the fact that smoking cigarettes undoubtedly does do you a lot of harm too. There is a difference between alcoholism and smoking. The evidence—and—I am simply repeating the evidence of scientists rather than expressing my own opinion—is that even small numbers of cigarettes add appreciably to the risk of a number of pathological conditions, whereas I do not think there is anything like the same evidence against small quantities of alcohol, provided one avoids driving a motor car after having recently imbibed them.
  Mr. Wilkins: Why must one do that?
  Mr. Hogg: In some people it impairs the judgment, or at any rate appears to do so to other users of the road.
  May I return to the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt). I wish that I could persuade him, although I have apparently failed to do so on two previous occasions, that I am on his side. It is true that all human motivation is a legitimate subject for scientific research, medical research and psychological research, which would be quite within the terms of reference of the Medical Research Council, and for demographic research and social survey, which would and does come under the Central Office of Information. I am sorry that I cannot tell him much about the survey to which he referred, although I have a copy of it in my papers.
  This is a legitimate field of research. Let me tell the hon. Member this straight away. If he has a project for research, if he knows of a project for research, if he knows of a promising line of advance, a promising lead as it is called, which is not being adequately pursued, if he knows of a properly designed ex-

  519
  periment or series of experiments, which have not been properly examined by the Research Council, I will certainly see that they are examined. And if the Research Council in its scientific judgment backs those projects, I shall be delighted to see that funds are available to pursue them.
  But I must make this general point before I pursue some of the other topics which he raised. One does not make out a case for scientific research of any kind simply by establishing the social relevance and desirability of knowing the answers. One must find a person who is interested in carrying out that research. One must find a promising lead and must have a reasonable prospect—not a certainty but a reasonable prospect—of an advance in knowledge what that particular set of experiments is likely to achieve. It must, of course, be fitted inside a properly balanced and integrated programme of research devised by the Research Council. That is why we have the Research Council.
  The hon. Member asked me whether I always take its opinions as gospel. Of course the answer is "No". I belong to an extremely sceptical profession. But the whole tradition of the Research Council as it has developed over 50 years, devised by very prominent members of the party opposite, such as Lord Haldane and Lord Addison, has been that the Minister on the whole does not bring political pressure to bear on matters on which the Council's scientific judgment is definite.
  I tell the hon. Member frankly that I have not only had first and second thoughts, but third and fourth thoughts as well, because each time he has raised the matter I have raised it again with the Council, and the Council has been round conscientiously today to all the leading psychiatrists it can find, but its scientific judgment remains the same, namely that the level of research is adequate. Although I still say that the answers are not altogether happy, and although I would agree with the hon. Member that the absence of answers is no conclusive reason why one should not research, I say that some hope of an advance in knowledge is at any rate a prerequisite before one has very much
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  reason to override a scientific judgment which says it is not worth researching.
  I think that the hon. Member has to some extent underestimated the amount which is known about this, partly by common sense and partly by actual scientific work which has been done. The Report of the Royal College of Physicians lists a bibliography of about 30 different items in this field, some of the most distinguished done in this country, on the subject of smoking and its motivation and the way of giving it up. The American report lists about 39 items, many of them the same, some of the work done under the auspices of the Medical Research Council, some done under various other auspices.
  I am afraid that some of the answers are a trifle obvious. This is the point upon which I should like to leave the subject this evening. We must always be careful, however much we may be in favour of scientific research, never to use it as an alibi for not acting. I was extremely grateful to the tobacco manufacturers for putting at the service of cancer research a large sum of money. I was less grateful when it was used in another place as a reason for not accepting the Report of the Royal College of Physicians and not taking action upon the assumption that it was true.
  In this matter of smoking and what motivates smoking, a number of facts are known. It is as well that we should remember what they are. In the first place, the power of example is enormous. It is all very well for the hon. Member for Bristol, South to say that it is really my business if I choose to adopt a deleterious habit. That in a sense is perfectly true. But the power of example is enormous. Twenty thousand people die of lung cancer every year, I do not know how many of bronchitis and a lot of coronary thrombosis, all of them states with which smoking cigarettes is associated. This is done very largely by the power of example. Smoking is a vice, if that is the right word—I use it in no pejorative sense; it is a common term in this sense—of initiation. One starts because somebody shows one. It is idle to pretend that we do not owe a duty to our fellow creatures to refrain from doing it as much as we can.

  521
  One of the facts which these very learned surveys establish is that children whose parents smoke, and presumably whose teachers smoke, are much more likely to learn to do this than any other children. Also, it is very much more difficult—this is a scientific fact—to give it up when one has learned young than when one has learned old. It is a social habit. The pressures to smoke are social pressures. After all, we know very well—I think that this appears in one of the learned disquisitions—that cigarettes were invented only about 100 years ago. Before then people had to do without them. I do not discount and I do not endorse the various ingenious psychological theories about infantile memories and other even more exciting possibilities. But the essence of smoking is that it is a social habit. It has to be learned.
  No one smoked cigarettes much before the First World War, and then it was the combination of fear and boredom—the accompaniments of war in the trenches—that led me to smoke. Women did not smoke very much until between the wars, and then I have no doubt that it was the force of advertisements aimed at women that led it to be regarded as a socially acceptable habit. It was not a socially acceptable habit in women before, and was hardly a socially acceptable habit in men.
  All this that I have been saying is very obvious, but we have to face the fact that the decisions, although difficult, all revolve around the question: how far in a free society are we entitled
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  and bound to create an atmosphere in which smoking cigarettes, which has hitherto been socially acceptable, is no longer a socially acceptable habit? It is a political question, and it is not for me to answer this tonight. I doubt whether members of any one political party would answer the question in the same way.
  When I came into the Cabinet Room after having made a speech on this subject in another place, the then Prime Minister pointed to me, after £25 million had gone off share values on the Stock Exchange, and said, "The biggest 'bear' in history." I am a non-smoker speaking in a Parliament of smokers and in a Cabinet of smokers, and with an electorate of smokers. Many people take the view of the hon. Member for Bristol, South that we have to make up our own minds about these things. I find it easier to condemn smoking because I gave it up a long time ago.
  At the same time, I will promise on behalf of the Research Councils that there is no research which their scientific judgment endorses that I will not back up. This I will promise, but I am also quite confident that we know enough about the scientific and social basis of smoking to realise that the issues of policy we have to face are not scientific problems.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at seventeen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln):
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON GRANTS FOR OVERSEAS SPORTS
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the names and composition of the Advisory Committee set up under the chairmanship of Sir John Lang to make recommendations for grant-aiding teams taking part in overseas sports events; and which members of the Committee have voting rights.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH): My Lords, the membership of this Committee comprises, in addition to the Chairman (Sir John Lang), the General Secretary of the Central Council of Physical Recreation, Mr. Walter Winterbottom, and the General Secretary of the British Olympic Association, Mr. K. S. Duncan, with representatives of the Ministry of Education and the Scottish Education Department. A representative of the Scottish Council of Physical Recreation will attend in appropriate cases. The Committee does not proceed by way of voting, so that the last part of the Question does not arise.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, in thanking the noble Earl for that information, which I know he has gone to a great deal of trouble to obtain, may I ask him whether I am correct in assuming that, although there is no voting as such on this Committee, applications which come in and are considered would be considered by the
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Chairman, Mr. Winterbottom and Mr. Duncan and two representatives of the Ministry of Education?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, the answer to that question is, Yes. But I think that I should add that, of course, the ultimate decisions on grants will rest with the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office, according to whether the visit is to a foreign country or to a Commonwealth country, because the expenditure will be borne on the Fund of either Department. But it was thought undesirable that these Departments should be actual members of the Advisory Committee which examines applications for grants. Representatives of the two Departments, however, are associated with the Committee and they take part in the discussions about individual applications in a consultative capacity. I am most grateful to the noble Lady for allowing me to make this reply, as there has been a little misunderstanding.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Earl will not be grateful to me much longer, because although I do not know whether he realises it, he has just made a terrible statement so far as the sporting organisations are concerned. I am being quite serious. Before dealing with the more serious aspect, may I ask him this: when it was the intention of this House, and I thought of the Government, to set up a Committee dealing with the grant-aiding of teams taking part in amateur international sporting events overseas, that this should be done by individual people, such as Mr. Winterbottom, Mr. Duncan and the Chairman, why should the Ministry of Education join them? Does the noble Earl not realise that the whole purpose of the Lord President being in charge of this was not to have any individual Ministries joining in at this stage? Could the noble Earl answer that point first?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: Yes, my Lords, certainly. The answer to the noble Lady, for whom I have a great admiration and affection, as I am sure all your Lordships have, is that the Education Departments are represented on this Committee because they provide the official members of the Committee, for the reason that their work particularly through Her Majesty's

555
Inspectors, give them the greatest experience of the work of national sporting bodies.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am so sorry; I feel horrid; but I have to go on with this matter. May I ask the noble Earl whether he does not realise that what I imagine the House must take from his reply is that the question of whether or not we are to grant-aid teams taking part in international sporting events overseas has nothing whatever to do with athletics, but has to do with the political aspect as covered by the Commonwealth Relations Office or the Foreign Office? If that is so, is the noble Earl aware that, quite irrespective of Party, I should think that noble Lords on both sides of the House, and certainly the sports organisations, will rend the Government limb from limb? Could I have an answer to that point?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I do not think that at the moment the Government are in the position of being rent limb from limb, and certainly will not be on this particular issue. I do not think that there is anything more that I can add. This Committee has been set up under Sir John Lang and has on it the representatives whom I have mentioned. I am afraid that I do not understand why the noble Lady should think that this Committee, with its advisers from the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office, should not function in an appropriate manner.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, in view of the great contribution of Wales to sporting events, ma y I ask the noble Earl why there is no representative of the Principality on the Committee?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I will look into that for the noble Lord, but I am certain that the Ministry of Education do, in fact, cover Wales.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I will leave the matter now, but, with your Lordships permission, may I ask one final point? In your Lordships' House on November 14 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 253 (No. 3), col. 124] we were told that
556
"British teams going to the Olympic or Commonwealth Games will be dealt with separately."
If that is the case, why on earth have we to have people dealing with that aspect on this Committee? Are they on both?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I think that the answer to that is that there are obviously sporting events which do not necessarily come within the range of the Commonwealth Games or British Olympics.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether this Committee will have amateur status or will they be paid expenses?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: No doubt Sir John Lang will be deciding that point.

HYDE PARK
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government—

(1) When it is expected that work will be finished on the partially restored lodge between the East Carriage Drive in Hyde Park and Park Lane; and

(2) When that part of Hyde Park which was closed when the underground garage was constructed will be reopened to the public and the collapsing fences removed.]

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, in reply to the first part of the Question, I would remind your Lordships that this lodge was removed from its original site at Grosvenor Gate, as a necessary part of the Park Lane Improvement Scheme. The London County Council agreed to pay for its re-erection on a new site inside Hyde Park. Discussions on the detailed arrangements are still proceeding between my right honourable friend the Minister of Public Building and Works, the London County Council and the Westminster City Council.
In answer to the second part of the Question, the Westminster City Council are responsible for ensuring that the land

557
above the underground garage is restored to the satisfaction of my right honourable friend the Minister of Public Building and Works. It was originally planned that this work should be complete by the end of 1963. There has, however, been a setback, in that the growth of the new grass has not come up to expectations. The Council are considering what further remedial measures are necessary. I can assure the noble Lord that his solicitude for this area of the park is shared by my right honourable friend, and that it will be opened to the public as soon as the land is properly restored.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that full reply; but may I put two supplementary questions? The first is: Why was it that the lodge was partly rebuilt where it was, and then not finished? Secondly, would it be possible, as the rest of the Park cannot be opened, to put back the fences, which at present are falling down?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord's second supplementary, I should like to bring that question to the attention of my right honourable friend and have it looked into. Frankly, I do not quite know the answer to the noble Lord's first supplementary. I think it is that, for a number of reasons, the cost of restoring the lodge, or of moving it from its original site to the new one, has proved a great deal more expensive than was originally anticipated but again I should like a chance of looking into the point.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl.

KENSINGTON GARDENS
2.39 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is the policy of the Ministry of Public Building and Works to use the St. James's Palace sub-depôt in Kensington Gardens as a dump for old lamp-posts and worn-out metal fencing. If this is not so, whether these could not in future be placed in some less conspicuous and popular place.]
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the area in question has been used in this way in connection with the Park Lane Improvement Scheme. But this was a temporary and exceptional measure. My right honourable friend the Minister of Public Building and Works intends to clear the area completely this spring. Tenders will shortly be invited for the sale of the old gas lamps, and the remainder of the material will also be sold in the near future. Thereafter, no more items will be stored there and the Ministry's depôt will be in the adjoining magazine buildings. As a result, the present depôt yard will be considerably reduced in size, and the surplus land returned to the Park.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that Answer to my Question. I am afraid that I have no supplementaries to put.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am extremely sorry to hear that.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether, as he is keen that this area should be kept in proper order, he does not think it is now time for the rectangular-shaped pill-boxes which are to the front and rear of the main building to be removed, too?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, it is certainly the intention, as was implicit in my reply, that this area should be kept in proper order. I am not quite as intimately acquainted as my noble friend evidently is with the area, but I will look into the question of the pill-boxes which he has quite rightly brought to our attention.

TRAINING OF COMMONWEALTH LAW STUDENTS
2.42 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure that law students from overseas Commonwealth States are receiving the requisite training in Great Britain to fit them for practice in a single fused legal profession in their own countries.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, the Council of Legal Education provides courses for members of the four Inns of Court who are reading for the examinations for the Bar. In the same way, persons who are proposing to take the Law Society's qualifying examinations can attend training courses provided by the College of Law which has the support of the Law Society. I must make it clear, however, that there is no ministerial responsibility in the matter whatever. I do, of course, take a great personal interest in this subject as did my noble predecessor Lord Kilmuir, and I am able to give your Lordships the following information.
Until recently the Council of Legal Education has experienced considerable difficulty in securing the necessary accommodation for their lectures. I am very pleased to be able to inform your Lordships that, thanks to the generosity of the Benchers of Gray's Inn, the Inns of Court School of Law has recently been able to move into new accommodation at which vastly improved facilities are available. This has enabled the Council, in particular, to develop further the post-final practical training course which is designed to fit Commonwealth students for practice in the type of profession referred to by the noble Lord.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, while thanking the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for that Answer, and knowing full well the interest that both he and his predecessor have taken in this matter, may I ask the Government to do whatever they can to develop the postgraduate part of the tuition so that training is given in the composite profession, so to speak, which these men will be pursuing in their countries after their return, and which they have little opportuniy of learning about in this country at the moment?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think the Council of Legal Education and, indeed, the Law Society can be trusted to pay attention to that particular point. I should perhaps inform the noble Lord that the Law Society did their best to organise a post-final practical training course of the kind recommended, but they had to abandon this scheme as there was virtu-
560
tually no demand for the course from the overseas students.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is it not the fact that this instruction would best be taken during the course prior to qualification, because so many young men want to go back to their countries immediately after they have qualified? Is it not the fact that if the Bar Council and the Inns of Court could be persuaded to make this part of the tuition for qualification for the Bar, a great deal of assistance would be given to these young men?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am not sure that I fully understand what the noble Lord means by "made part of the tuition" before the Bar examination is taken. I can assure him that the Council of Legal Education, on the one hand, and the College of Law, supported by the Law Society, on the other, are fully alive to the need to give the overseas students the best possible training.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform your Lordships that at a suitable moment after 3.30 o'clock my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire will be making a statement on the Overseas Volunteer Service.
HAVEN MARINE TERMINAL COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
CHESHIRE BRINE PUMPING (COMPENSATION FOR SUBSIDENCE) BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
LIFE ASSOCIATION OF SCOTLAND LIMITED BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
CUMBERLAND COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

STAGGERED HOLIDAYS
2.46 p.m.
LORD MOLSON LORD MOLSON rose to call attention to Cmnd. Paper 2105 (Staggered Holidays) which demonstrates the desirability of extending the annual holiday season and of avoiding the coincidence of week-end travel and day-trips with main holidays; to the need, if this is to be done, for an initiative by Government Departments and other bodies; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an important social matter affecting the lives of the great mass of our fellow countrymen, and one which also has a great effect upon the economics of the country, and is a subject which I think it is especially suitable for your Lordships to discuss. It is a matter which is not a political issue, but it is perhaps all the more important on that account. The importance of the staggering of holidays has been apparent for a long time. It is becoming steadily and rapidly more so as the number of people able to take holidays annually increases; and with the changes which are announced in transport—the Beeching Report and so on—it is likely that we shall, in the near future, reach a crisis.
In 1937 only 15 million people in this country went away from their homes on a holiday. By 1961 this had increased to 30 million. But still there are 20 million people in this country who do not go away from home for a holiday. That is a clear indication of what will be the effect, as holiday-taking becomes more general, if nothing is done to meet the problem of congestion. Despite the great increase in the number of holidays taken, it continues to be the case that there is an acute peak. A vast number of people go away on holiday all at the same time. Sixty-three per cent. of all those who go on holiday go away in July or August, but the peak is most acute in just the fourteen days between July 24 and August 7:25 per cent, of all the holidays taken are started during that period. Seven million people congest our railways and roads in that fortnight; and another 5 million people do so in the preceding fortnight between the 10th and 24th July. This means an intense pressure upon holiday accommodation. Because the hotels, boarding houses and
562
all forms of recreation have to cover their year's expenses in this short period of time, it means that prices must necessarily be higher than they would need to be if the holiday season were longer. In the second place, it also creates an acute pressure upon transport. I will deal with that point first.
The Beeching Report has indicated that, if permission is given by the Government, a very large number of branch lines will be closed down. A large proportion of our holiday resorts are on branch lines which are condemned to be closed under the Becching plan. Map No. 9 shows these closures, and I will give one example which is not an extreme example. Only two branch lines, as I understand it, will be left leading to the coast between Bristol and Land's End. In addition to this closing of branch lines which, of course, is dependent on the Government's consent, there is also to be the scrapping of some 6,000 carriages which are regarded as surplus. Of these, 2,000 are used on only ten occasions in the year, another 2,000 on fourteen occasions, and another 2,000 on eighteen occasions. The net annual loss to the railways on that is £2·9 million. I do not think Dr. Beeching requires the consent of the Minister to do away with that surplus stock, and he says in the Report that, by the end of 1965, stock will not be available for use at high peak periods. It follows that, with this policy being adopted by the railways, there must be greatly increased use of the roads.
In 1962, 74 per cent. of the holidaymakers went by road; 55 per cent. of them by car, and already that had resulted, with even those numbers, in these appalling progresses to the coast. With hundreds of cars bumper to bumper, much of the pleasure, enjoyment and benefit in holidaymaking must disappear during those long and wearisome hours on the road. Making bigger and better roads will not in itself be any solution, because even if transport to the coast and to other resorts is improved, there is the problem of where the cars are to be parked when they get there; and this, naturally, is more particularly acute when they are going to the seaside.
Superimposed on the long holidays, which are, as I have pointed out, taken so largely at the end of July and the beginning of August, there is the problem

563
of daily and weekend trips—short periods taken away from home which are not included in the figures that I have given for what I call holidays. For example, August Bank Holiday—and many people go away for August Bank Holiday only, or take their holiday at some other time of the year—is superimposed upon the greatest rush period of all for the holidaymakers. It is a remarkable thing that 75 per cent. of all the holidays taken in this country begin at the weekend, and mostly on Saturday. This is the problem which we have to face.
I would suggest that the first essential step should be to try to separate the time of holidaymakers' travelling from the weekend. Providers of accommodation would welcome it if holidays, instead of beginning at the weekend, began in the middle of the week. The British Federation of Hotel and Boarding Houses Associations say:
"A greater willingness on the part of hotels and boarding houses to accept midweek bookings … if this were practised on a wider scale … would certainly help to avoid … congestion at the weekends."
Of course, they cannot be expected to welcome bookings from Wednesday to Wednesday if it is only a comparatively small proportion of all the holidaymakers who try to begin and end their holidays on a Wednesday. In isolated cases it might well mean that one booking beginning and ending on a Wednesday would result in the loss of two bookings which had begun at the weekend. The question is: is there any reason why holidaymakers should prefer to begin their holidays at the weekend? When one analyses the kind of holiday we are discussing, one finds there is really no reason for it at all.
For the normal holiday, 30 per cent. of the industrial workers in particular go away to an unlicensed hotel or a boarding house, and take their holiday for a fixed period of seven or fourteen days. It may appear to them at first sight that by starting their holiday at a weekend they gain the benefit of an extra period of holiday. But, of course, in point of fact this is not the case. They are obliged to vacate their accommodation on holiday on the seventh or fourteenth day in order that new bookings may be given. What in fact on analysis is the case is that the only advantage, if it be one, is that after
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returning home the breadwinner, or breadwinners, have a Sunday at home without work. Now from their point of view that may be an advantage. Probably from the point of view of the housewife it is actually a disadvantage because, of course, she finds that the shops are closed on that day. But it is quite clear that, from the point of view of convenience of travel and of enjoyment of holidays, it would be well worth while to alter the general scheme so that holidays begin and end in midweek.
I turn now to the question of spreading holidays over a longer period in the year. June, with its longer days, more sunshine and less rain, is the period when a great many people who now are unable to do so would wish to take their holidays. The figures are given in paragraph 25 of the White Paper. This would require a great and planned change, because most people are not at liberty to choose for themselves when they take their holidays. The main underlying cause of the present dates of holidays is the school year. In the White Paper reference is made, by implication, to the great educational difficulties in altering the school year. I have been at some pains to make inquiries as to exactly what the difficulties are, and I have come to the conclusion that, to a very large extent, it is due to the unintelligent conservatism, if there be such a thing—
LORD CHAMPION: It is synonymous.
LORD MOLSON: —of those who are engaged in organising the examinations. One thing which one must, of course, accept is that it is of the utmost importance that school-leavers should leave school soon after taking their examination for the General Certificate of Education. One is appalled to think of what the effect would be, in idleness, and worse, if there were a number of school-leavers who, having taken their examination, were kept on at school for weeks or months, without an obvious objective, before they actually left school.
But there is no reason why the General Certificate of Education examination should not be completely finished by the end of June, or even earlier. In fact, the great majority of papers are already finished before the end of June. It is only in the case of a comparatively small

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number that they drag over into July and delay the time when school holidays can begin. In Birmingham, for example, the County Borough Council has for this very purpose decided that holidays shall begin at the end of June, and the examinations have fitted themselves in accordingly. In the case of Scotland, the examination for the Scottish Certificate of Education was, until 1961, concluded by March or April, and at the present time is concluded in May. I see no reason at all why the seven or eight examining boards should not make the necessary effort to ensure that the G.C.E. examination is concluded by the end of May.
If and when the educationists have cleared the way, there will be no difficulty for industry, when fixing holidays, to take into account the possibility and desirability of starting them sooner. There are already many factories, perhaps most, which stagger holidays in order to remain in production; so they are already doing what we are anxious that they should do. There are other cases where complete factories close down, and even, in some cases, whole industries. I see that this practice is likely to start in the case of the great motor car industry, and I hone that the importance of timing holidays will be taken into account if that very large industry decides to close down completely for a period of time, as is indicated in a recent report in the Guardian.
Then there are, as those with experience of the North know, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Wakes Weeks, which are, in fact, holidays for whole towns. There, for a long time, local authorities concerned have been accustomed to meeting annually and arranging it so that their Wakes Weeks do not clash and thereby cause unnecessary inconvenience to their own people. It is quite possible to spread industrial holidays over a much larger part of the English summer (when it can be relied upon at any time) if only people are not bound by this difficulty of concluding the examinations. It does not affect merely those with children at school; obviously, when industry is considering the dates for fixing holidays for its workers, many of those who do not have children at school are obliged to go at a time that is convenient for those who have.
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The third point arises in connection with the so-called bank holidays. I am not raising the question of a fixed date for Easter: provision with regard to that is already on the Statute Book, and has been since 1928. But I am sure that a fixed date for Easter would be desirable if the whole of Christendom could agree upon a date. But it is not necessary to go into that matter. There is no religious association with Whit Monday. It could be made into an entirely secular holiday, with a fixed date at the end of May, which would be just before the beginning of the holiday season. It would, of course, be important that it should be so arranged as not to interrupt the G.C.E. examination. Similar considerations apply in the case of August Bank Holiday. It would be immensely helpful if it were at the end of August or the beginning of September, and if both were re-named "National Holidays".
I think that Parliament itself might set an example in this matter. I believe that the reason both Houses adjourn at the end of July or the beginning of August is that the "knights of the Shires" and noble Lords found it necessary to go back to their country estates to supervise the garnering of the harvests. I do not think it is always realised how many people, in the Civil Service and elsewhere, are bound by the Parliamentary Recesses as to the times when they take their holidays.
My Lords, I believe that such a change as I have indicated has long been a desirable social change, but reason and propaganda, taken alone, will be useless unless an initiative is taken by those who have the power to take it. I know that Her Majesty's Government do not control either the local education authorities or industry, but I believe that Her Majesty's Government could insist upon the G.C.E. examination being concluded at a time which would be to the general economic and social advantage of the country. I have every reason to think that once a lead had been given, industry would be most willing to cooperate. An immense amount depends, of course, upon the attitude of the trade unions, but several noble Lords will speak on that subject this afternoon, and I know that in years past the Trades Union Congress has in its Annual Report recommended a measure of this

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kind. I think that they feel, as certainly I do, that a change of this kind would be of immense benefit to those who spend many months labouring hard in industrial towns.
This is one of those reforms, like day light-saving, which for many years were obstructed, not for any good reason but simply because of the unwillingness of people in this country to take an initiative and change what had been a long-established custom. I believe that this would be of great value. I believe that all the indications are that, owing to the increasing use of the motor car and the likelihood that the railways will cut their peak-time and local services, we are approaching something in the nature of a crisis in this matter, and I hope that this afternoon your Lordships will give a lead to the Government and the country upon this matter. I beg to move for Papers.
3.11 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molson, has introduced his Motion with such thoroughness and comprehensiveness that I find myself in some difficulty about what I am going to add to what he has said. Indeed, towards the end of his speech it seemed to me the best thing I could do was get up and say, "I second the Motion". He has dealt fully and admirably with the topic, and I say this not in criticism but rather in admiration of his performance.
However, there are a few points that I should like to stress, and in doing so I must make it quite clear that, although I speak from this Box, I am not expressing a Party point of view; nor can I be said, as a trade unionist, to be speaking for the trade union movement as a whole; for while both, I am sure, support the general proposal in principle, neither of the bodies have committed themselves to any set of proposals towards staggering holidays. I say this although, of course, the Trades Union Congress has been consulted as part of the National Joint Advisory Council, as the White Paper makes clear. Perhaps my noble friend Lord Williamson, when he comes to speak, will be able to give us a little more inside information than I have at the moment on the trade union side.
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Having made that clear, I hope, speaking as a railwayman I am bound to say that I am a very strong supporter of any reasonable proposal that would lower the peaks and raise the valleys, whether that proposal relates to the staggering of holidays or to the staggering of office hours in London, both of which cause exceptional difficulties to the railway industry. The noble Lord, Lord Molson, dealt adequately with branch lines, and he also reminded us of the fact that the Beeching Report has some forceful paragraphs on this topic of summer holidays and public holiday peaks. It says:
"This peak traffic differs from steady traffic and it is gradually being eroded much more by the growth of private transport".
Then, after giving the comparable figures between 1951 and 1961 of the erosion that is actually taking place, it tells us that in 1959 (and the noble Lord, Lord Molson, has touched upon this point) the British Railway services total of gangway coaches allocated to fast and semi-fast services numbered some 18,500. Six thousand of those were required as follows: 2,000 on ten occasions, 2,000 on fourteen occasions and 2,000 on 18 occasions. The annual cost of providing those 6,000 coaches was £3·4 million. Against this, those 6,000 coaches earned only £·5 million.
The Report says bluntly that this stock is being reduced so that by the end of 1965 none will be available for this peak traffic, and it says that all efforts will be made to control these peaks by seat reservation schemes and by a fares policy, as is the custom with the airline services. And it tells us, under the heading of the financial consequences of the plan, that the net saving it expects from all this is OA million. Whether we like this running down of this stock or not, the fact is that it is going on, and no transport users' consultatve committee, or anybody else, is brought into this consideration by representations made by the public. I say and assert that Dr. Beeching is right to do this as long as his terms of reference remain to make the railways pay. But the consequences of this will clearly have to be faced, as they will be, partly by more cars on the roads and partly by spreading the load by staggered holidays.
But we then must face what the noble Lord, Lord Molson, called the crisis, for

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crisis there certainly will be by the end of 1965; and it will be a crisis which will deepen with every passing year unless we do something. Mr. Marples, speaking in the other place on Monday, said that by the end of the century our population of 52 million will have increased to 70 million and all families who want a car will have one, which will mean 35 million vehicles on our roads, that being some three to four times the number there are now. Whatever the road improvements, no roads will be able to carry the load at holiday peaks of the kind we now have.
Clearly, the question we have to discuss is what can be done to lower the holiday peaks? I think it is obvious that this problem cannot be solved by Government action alone, although the Government can take some helpful actions. The first question arises from piling on top of the holiday peak period the August Bank Holiday traffic. This brings a tremendous pressure on all forms of transport and, of course, pressure on the resorts. I have always thought that our bank holidays are not as well spaced out over the year as they might be. August Bank Holiday is often too soon on the heels of Whitsun, and is always too far away from Christmas; the gap between August and Christmas is much too big. It seems to me that Easter and Whitsun might very well be fixed dates; although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Molson, that there may be a lot of religious feeling on this matter and that the whole thing will have to be very carefully considered and religious bodies consulted on any decision that would have to be taken, especially as it would apply to Easter. But certainly the bank holiday falling between Whitsun and Christmas ought to be fixed on either the last Monday in August or the first Monday in September, as has been suggested. That would have an immediate effect on the worst holiday congestion.
Also careful consideration ought to be given to the changing of the school terms and holidays. In this connection the G.C.E. examination is an important factor. If it is possible, the G.C.E. examination ought to be taken in the middle of June at the latest. There might be some advantage, too, in lengthening the school summer holiday,
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even if it means shortening the Christmas and Easter breaks. I believe this is done in many countries. I believe that Scotland does not suffer from the difficulty we have in this connection. But, certainly, there are no real disadvantages to be expected from such an alteration to the school holidays and the terms as we now have them.
I do not see how the Government could do much more than alter the dates of bank holidays and school examinations, except by stimulating industries and towns to consider the problem and take appropriate action. There is no single answer to this problem, for all industries and localities differ in their possibilities of bringing this about. These problems arise from the interdependence of industries the one upon the other, and the industry upon its contractors. But in many of them the problem is not insuperable, providing there is the will to tackle it.
The wakes weeks idea is not suitable everywhere. The wakes weeks were particularly suitable in the single industry towns, such as the cotton towns where they originated. They have now spread, understandably perhaps, to the mining areas, where single industries still dominate large parts of the population. The idea is spreading, and recently in my own home town the Treforest trading estate, upon which there is a variety of industries, decided upon holiday weeks at the same time. I gather that no particular difficulties have been experienced as the result of this decision.
The towns where wakes weeks are traditional can certainly help by moving away from the peak periods. I understand that Rochdale has shifted its two weeks to the second fortnight in June. An honourable friend of mine in another place, a prominent cotton union official, told me how it was done. First of all, a union ballot was held of the members, and, because cotton is no longer the sole industry of Rochdale, the engineers also held a ballot. This was a co-operative effort between the main trade unions concerned, of cotton and engineering. In the first ballot they held they asked: would members be prepared to shift the weeks to a less congested holiday period? The ballot showed that three to one were in favour of such a shift; they had become a little tired of

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finding the seaside resorts over-filled and transport difficult. The second ballot asked the members: would they agree to starting in mid-June? And two to one were in favour of starting in mid-June. As a result, the holiday last year in Rochdale was taken at this time.
I asked my honourable friend whether there were many complaints about this change after the first experience, and he said that complaints and grumbles about it were surprisingly few. The main complaints received were that there was in this period a lack of the usual seaside entertainments: they were not provided by the resorts at this time. On this point my honourable friend wrote to eighteen seaside resorts, and he received from most of these places, from the town clerks, replies which showed that the entertainments in most of them opened up in the second week of this late June period; and it was made quite clear by the town clerks and others concerned that, given a sufficient number of June visitors, they would have no difficulty at all about getting these entertainments to open earlier than was now the case.
A few of the grumblers found the less crowded resorts not to their taste. This is something that I cannot understand, but a number of people can. They like to be there with a good mob milling around. I hate it. But a number of these people complained that they do not like to be away from home and at these resorts in the comparatively lonely circumstances of that time. Surprisingly few found the G.C.E. examinations a difficulty; but there were some families who stayed at home and missed their holidays completely, as the result of their children taking the G.C.E. examination. My honourable friend explained the fact of there being surprisingly few of them by saying, "After all, the G.C.E. examination affects a family perhaps only two or three times in a working lifetime". But, of course, looked at over the country as a whole, these G.C.E. examinations affect parents and I think have an effect on this business of taking holidays after the examinations and during congested holiday periods.
Rochdale's experience seems to me to point, first, to a willingness to change to a less congested period, and secondly, to the fact that the G.C.E. examination is a limiting factor in only some cases.
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The few grumbles about the lack of entertainment facilities would easily and gladly be met if more people came earlier to resorts. What I would say to towns which have these weeks, or towns which are considering them, is that what Rochdale did yesterday many more towns and industries ought to be doing to-day and to-morrow. I greatly hope that the debate to-day will lead to Government action, in so far as it lies in the Government's power to affect the holiday period. Certainly I hope that it will lead to more thought being given by towns and industries to means of reducing the existing holiday congestion in resorts, on the roads and on the railways. I am sure that something has to be done, and it ought to be done soon. I certainly thank the noble Lord, Lord Molson, for introducing his Motion and for giving this subject an airing, which I hope will lead to action in the not too distant future.
3.28 p.m.
LORD MABANE: My Lords, I, too, think that the noble Lord, Lord Molson, deserves thanks for introducing this important subject and bringing it to wide public notice; and the Board of Trade are surely to be commended for compiling and publishing this White Paper, Staggered Holidays. I agree with Lord Molson that this is a matter of unusual social and economic importance. It affects the cost and the comfort of many millions of our own people, and it bears upon one of our major export industries. At the same time, it indicates how many of our own problems of congestion on the roads, on rail, in the air and on the sea, as well as at holiday resorts, may be eased. More than that, the realisation of the purpose of this White Paper would add many millions of pounds to national revenue and would be to the profit of many interests, both public and private. These are large claims, but I do not think they are exaggerated, for in this matter home holidays are indissolubly knit with the task of attracting visitors from abroad.
I have, of course, a special interest. Until this year I was Chairman of the British Travel and Holidays Association. On my retirement I was elected President, in succession to my noble friend Lord Woolton. I am glad to say that another Member of this House, Lord

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Geddes, has succeeded me as Chairman. During that period I learnt that travel and tourism have become one of the world's major industries. We in Britain came late into the business. Before the last war tourism and holidays in Britain were almost entirely a domestic affair. We did not rank ourselves with the traditional international tourist countries—France, Switzerland and Italy. The need for dollars after the war drove us into the business. When Mr. Harold Wilson was President of the Board of Trade, the British Travel and Holidays Association was brought into being as the chosen instrument for the two-fold purpose of attracting visitors from all over the world and not merely from the U.S.A., and of improving within Britain all the amenities calculated to be of benefit both to visitors from abroad and to our own native holidaymakers. The success, judged by the growth both in numbers and in expenditure, has been staggering.
The White Paper, as the noble Lord, Lord Molson, has said, shows that the numbers of our own nationals annually taking main and subsidiary holidays rose from 25 million in 1955 to 31 million in 1963. Expenditure has grown from £465 million in 1955 to £650 million in 1963. These are very large figures. The number of visitors from abroad has risen from nearly 1,040,000 in 1955 to 2,150,000 in 1963, and their expenditure within Britain and on British carriers has risen from £160 million to well over £300 million. The Association predict that numbers and expenditure, in regard to both home holidaymakers and visitors from abroad, will increase by another 10 per cent. in the present year, 1964. In fact, the amount gained from visitors from abroad now represents no less than 8 per cent. of our total export revenue; and the holiday industry has become the largest dollar-earner and the fourth largest in our category of exports.
Many people find it difficult to understand why visitors from abroad should come to Britain for pleasure. They underestimate our own assets. Britain is now one of the major tourist attractions of the world. A world-wide survey recently undertaken in the United States of America states that for the first time this year London is ahead of Paris as the "number one" American tourist
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attraction, with Rome third. This advance does not surprise me, but I know it is regarded with incredulity by some of my fellow countrymen. But facts are facts.
This immense increase in holiday travel, both by ourselves and our visitors, creates urgent problems. Increasingly, great congestion occurs at peak periods, in all forms of accommodation, in restaurants, on the roads, on the railways, in the air, on the sea, at the resorts and in the countryside. The peak periods are July and August and, as the noble Lord, Lord Molson, said, they account together for 65 per cent. of home holidays, while June and September account for only 24 per cent. Then comes a strange paradox. A further survey revealed that these figures do not in the least represent the preferred times for holidays. Only 38 per cent. prefer to take their holidays in July and August. The main preference is for June and September—that is to say, 43 per cent. for June and 16 per cent. for September.
I now come to the actual purpose of this debate: staggered holidays. The Board of Trade and my Association desire, first, to impress on the country the enormous advantages, both social and economic, of spreading the holiday season more evenly over the months from May to October; and, second, to discover and suggest means whereby by legislative, administrative and voluntary measures this may be achieved. This problem is not new; nor has it lacked attention. It is not a problem peculiar to this country, although the fact that Britain is so compact makes our problem more difficult. Efforts to stagger holidays have a long history, and as the years have passed the urgency has become more acute. There have been debates and questions in both Houses of Parliament. It was raised in your Lordships' House in 1959 and 1960 by Lord Gifford. Responsibility for the initiative in this matter was placed firmly upon the British Travel and Holidays Association, and it has not been slow to face the task. The Association recognises that formidable obstacles stand in the way of staggering holidays, and, further, as the White Paper emphasises, that the possibilities of legislative action are very restricted.

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I should like to point to some of the main obstacles. Families commonly wish to take holidays together, and therefore where families include children of school age the incidence of school terms and school holidays are a controlling factor. Again, when wives as well as husbands are in employment, and usually different employments, the arrangement of holiday periods to coincide is not easy. As important is the fact that in many industries where whole plants close down for the holiday periods it is urged that for industrial convenience the second half of July and the first half of August are best.
Nevertheless, the initiative of the B.T.H.A. has never flagged. In 1950 it pressed the Minister of Education to urge local authorities to spread the holidays more widely over the summer months. Every year since then, in the recommendations made annually to the Government, this plea has been developed and reiterated. In 1954, in 1958 and in 1960 conferences were organised by the Association, attended by all interests concerned, including the Ministry of Education, and at all times there was overwhelming support for the desirability for staggering school holidays. At the same time, efforts have been made continuously, and with considerable success, to persuade towns which, especially in Lancashire (where the holidays are known as wakes weeks), close down completely for the holiday period, to move the holiday period away from July and August. Individual plants have been persuaded in some cases to do the same.
As to school holidays, in the last few years the Ministry of Education has shown great good will and has been doing its best to help. As has already been said, it has no power to fix the holiday date in most cases, nor to determine the dates of G.C.E. examinations. Now there is reasonable hope that the Ministry will press local authorities and other bodies concerned to bring the vital examinations to an end in May. In industry there has been progress, but not enough—the noble Lord, Lord Champion, mentioned some examples; the noble Lord, Lord Molson, mentioned
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others. In 1962 the Midland motor industry advanced the holiday period by one week. That has been done already. In the same year Leyland's, in Lancashire, changed its holiday from the last two weeks in July to the last two weeks in June. Rochdale, God bless them!, pioneers of the Co-operative movement, are among the pioneers in changing their industrial holiday from August to June. It is encouraging that the Trades Union Congress recently expressed views which are in close accord with those expressed by Lord Molson and myself.
Again, as has been said, an important aspect of this matter is the incidence of Summer Time and of public holidays. Year by year my Association has pressed for changes in these respects which would contribute greatly to the holiday spread. Progress has been slow, but in total it has been considerable. The first major break-through was in 1960 when Summer Time for 1961 was extended for three weeks at either end, and the change was repeated in 1962 and 1963. This year Summer Time—in case any noble Lords do not know when to put their clocks forward—will start even a week earlier. At resorts and hotels reporting to us, the extra three weeks at the end has had very great effect, particularly on secondary holidays.
What else can be done? Much, I believe, by publicity and propaganda; and not least by this debate to-day in this House. The British people must be shaken from their belief that July and August are the best times for holidays; they are not. Quite apart from the fact that these months are the most crowded and the most expensive, they fall behind May and June in sunshine, and exceed May, June and September in rainfall. The popularity of August is not a little due to that great public benefactor, Sir John Lubbock, who secured the establishment by Statute in 1871 of the first Monday in August as a public holiday—St. Lubbock's Day, as it was popularly called. For many years, my Association with very wide general support has held the view, which has also been expressed by my noble friend Lord Molson, and the noble Lord, Lord Champion, that our public holidays are wrongly situated in the calendar; and it is my personal opinion that they are too few.

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It is unfortunate that by a strange doctrinal accident Easter and Whitsuntide, to which public holidays are attached, are movable feasts. Apart from the damage done to business and industry, the movement of Easter and Whitsuntide year by year upsets the holiday season and prevents its extension. Thank heavens the Feast of the Nativity is fixed by date on December 25! Imagine the confusion and economic loss if Christmas could fall between the first week in December and the third week in January. There is no historical—I hope the right reverend Prelate will agree with me—or doctrinal reason, either, why the other three anniversaries should jump about according to the date of a purely notional paschal moon.
This is an old story. It has been mentioned already that the Easter Act, fixing Easter Day as the first Sunday after the second Saturday in April, is already on the Statute Book. The Easter Act was passed by both Houses of Parliament and received the Royal Assent in 1928, but no day has ever been appointed for bringing this Act into force. Rarely has there been such unanimity in support of a Bill, as Lord Birkenhead said when commending the Bill to your Lordships' House on behalf of the Government in July, 1928. And on October 25 last year the Vatican Council, certainly to my surprise, adopted by a great majority a Resolution which if carried into effect would lead to a fixed Easter. So there is some action which the Government can take at once. They can take steps to enable the Easter Act to be brought into force now. If, however, there is not yet sufficient agreement among the Christian churches on the date for Easter, that does not prevent us from abandoning the anomalous attachment of spring and summer public holidays to religious occasions, and to banks—banks which, like the "flowers that bloom in the spring", have nothing to do with the case.
Far better would it be to abandon Easter Monday and Whit Monday as public holidays and substitute by law two, or as I would prefer three, days as spring holidays; in addition throwing in for the time being Good Friday,
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which I am advised is a Common Law holiday, for good measure. I suggest that these new spring holidays might be the first or second Monday in April and the seventh Monday thereafter. Next, what is called the August Bank Holiday should be moved to the last Monday in August or, as the noble Lord, Lord Champion, suggested, to the first Monday in September. And I personally, like the noble Lord, Lord Champion, would like an additional public holiday towards the end of October. I think that would contribute to national health, and would possibly prevent some industries from having strikes, because their workmen would not be so tired. Let us at the same time abandon the misnomer of the title "bank holiday". Banks are not holy.
It is a surprise to many to know that we have fewer public holidays than any other country in Europe. For that I blame— perhaps the right reverend Prelate will not object—the Reformation and the Puritan Revolution which deprived us of our basic holy days, the Saints' days. Your Lordships will recollect that Lord Protector Cromwell forbade the celebration of Christ Mass—a practice which I think is still observed in Scotland. Moreover, we are behind most of Europe in the matter of statutory paid holidays, although over a very wide area many public authorities and commercial and industrial concerns in Britain now add a third week's holiday to the statutory minimum. Much has been done, therefore, and is being done, both directly and indirectly, to stagger holidays, but much more can and should be done. I hope the Government will give every encouragement to such efforts, as I am quite sure they are anxious to do, and I have every reason to believe that Her Majesty's Opposition is no less willing to give support.
Holidays spread more evenly over the year from May to October, besides adding to general comfort, would have great and beneficial economic consequences. As my noble friend Lord Molson indicated, the cost of accommodation could be reduced. I have been supplied with the monthly figures of bed occupancy in representative resorts over the year, by one of our most important hotel groups. They vary month by month from under 10 per cent. in the off-season

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to over 106 per cent. in the height of the season, when, I suppose, people are sleeping in baths. This uneven spread increases costs and greatly accentuates the problem of staffing, and it increases the degree to which hotel employment is casual. It also prevents local authorities from arranging at resorts programmes of entertainment to cover six months.
Even more important when export revenue is being considered—and this is particularly a concern of mine—it is beginning to limit the number of visitors from abroad, for travel agents are now finding great difficulty in securing accommodation for those who wish to come to Britain in peak periods. We are, as it were, having to turn the customers away. For these reasons, if I may speak as one who has made an intensive study of this matter, I am convinced that spreading the holiday season more evenly over the spring and summer months, with some overspill into autumn, as my noble friend Lord Molson has indicated, would be worth millions of pounds in increased export revenue from visitors from abroad, millions in reduced costs for home holidaymakers and millions in increased profits for all who provide accommodation. These may seem large figures, but remember that in the tourist business we now talk, not in millions, but in tens and hundreds of millions. In addition there would be increased profits for the local authorities and all forms of transport undertakings.
It may seem to your Lordships that my enthusiasm in support of this Motion so ably proposed by my noble friend Lord Molson is excessive. But tourism has come to stay and is now throughout the world a great and growing element in consumer expenditure. I am delighted that this is so, for I am convinced that travel, and especially international travel, is not merely an important educative influence, but also a major contribution to international understanding at the level of the ordinary people, and therefore a contribution to the preservation of peace. I have little doubt that the Government fully accept the validity of the arguments advanced by my noble friend Lord Molson, by the noble Lord, Lord Champion, and, I hope, by myself, and I trust that, in reply, the Minister will give all of us some encouragement. I know the difficulty is to find ways and means of progressing along the lines of
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this admirable White Paper, so widely and rightly acclaimed, but I know that all concerned with this great industry are eagerly waiting for a lead from the the Government to translate the dream into the business.

OVERSEAS VOLUNTEER SERVICE
3.51 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, this might be a convenient moment for me to read to the House a statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of the Department for Technical Co-operation.
"In the great and urgent attack on world poverty, one of our greatest contributions is men and women prepared to work for the developing countries. Altogether about 19,000 British men and women, provided with the help of Her Majesty's Government, are serving in this cause, mainly in the Commonwealth. Of these, at present about 550 are young volunteers—newly-qualified graduates, school-leavers and industrial apprentices—who give up at least a year to this service at the start of their careers. Under plans already announced, the number will increase to 800 in September of this year. The Government are in no doubt that the scale of this effort should be further substantially expanded.
"As an immediate step, two decisions have been taken. First, for the 1965 programme the Government will contribute 75 per cent. of the British costs involved, compared with 50 per cent. at the moment. Second, the 1965 programme will be increased to 1,300 volunteers, of whom 1,000 will be graduates. This means that the Government's contribution to the 1965 programme will be about £650,000, compared with £270,000 for the 1964 programme.
"The outstanding success of the service given by volunteers from Britain has been due to their high quality and the worthwhile nature of the projects to which they have been assigned. The rate of increase will be determined more than anything else

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by our determination to maintain these high standards. Judged on present trends of requests from overseas, the increase is likely to be mainly, but not exclusively, among graduate volunteers.
"The Government are in no doubt that volunteers should continue to serve, as hitherto, under the auspices of the independent voluntary societies active in this field. The societies as hitherto, will work in close co-operation with the Department of Technical Co-operation, and will coordinate their activities through the Joint Committee under the Chairmanship of Sir John Lockwood. This system has worked with great success so far. Its independence and non-Governmental character are most welcome, both to the receiving countries overseas and to the intending volunteers in Britain.
"The voluntary societies have welcomed our target for 1965. Both they and the Government are satisfied that they will be able to expand their programme still further in later years as the demand for volunteers increases.
"If this movement is to gather force as we desire, it is necessary to arouse a high degree of public interest and support. To this end, the voluntary societies have agreed to the setting up of a new body to be called 'The Council for Volunteers Overseas'. It will receive reports from the voluntary societies and the Lockwood Committee, and advise them and the Department of Technical Co-operation on questions of policy affecting the programme. It will in no sense duplicate the work of the Lockwood Committee. The membership will include Sir John Lockwood, the chairmen of the participating voluntary societies, distinguished representatives from the educational and industrial worlds and also some past volunteers. The Council will be set up for three years in the first instance. I am very glad to inform the House that His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh has consented to be President of the Council for this period."
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am sure both sides of the House will
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be equally grateful to the Government for this, what I must admit appears to be, rather overdue increase in Government support for a Service that offers the most splendid opportunity available at the present time for service and adventure overseas for young men and women from this country. May I ask the noble Duke whether it is not the case that, in spite of the increase in Government financial support foreshadowed in this statement, the British Government will be paying very much less towards the Overseas Volunteer Service than the American Government is paying towards the American Peace Corps? May I also ask him about the financial arrangements for the Council for Volunteers Overseas? We are delighted, of course, that this Council has been set up to do publicity for the Service, and we are also delighted that the Duke of Edinburgh has been willing to become President of the Council; but, clearly, this Council will have to conduct a publicity campaign in the Press, by broadcasting, and so on, and how will the work of the Council be financed? That is my first question.
May I also ask the noble Duke a question about the membership of the Council? He says that representatives will be drawn from the educational and industrial worlds, as well as some other persons. May I ask the noble Duke whether the industrial world includes the T.U.C. as well as the employers' organisations? I am sure he will agree that it is most important that young apprentices should have their attention drawn by the trade unions to this work.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, in reply to the noble Earl's supplementaries, I would first of all say, Yes, it is quite true that the contribution of Her Majesty's Government to voluntary service overseas is on a lower scale than that of the American Government to the American Peace Corps, but I think the two organisations are not quite parallel. I have no wish to make any criticism of the Peace Corps of the United States—indeed, to my own, firsthand knowledge, it does a magnificent job in many parts of the world—but it is essentially a Government service. We regard the voluntary element of voluntary service overseas as very important,

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and consider that it should be administered by a voluntary body.
On the second question as to the expenses of the Council, as I understand it the functions of the Council have not yet been fully worked out. Certainly those who serve on it will do so in an entirely voluntary capacity, as would be right for an organisation of this kind. The cost of such publicity campaigns as they may see fit to undertake will have to be explored. I believe the Council's thinking on this matter has not yet been worked out. As to membership of the Council, I am quite sure it will be drawn from as wide a field as possible, and I find myself in full agreement with the noble Earl when he says that on the industrial side the re should be representation from the T.U.C. I am sure the members will be drawn from a very wide selection, including all sides of industry.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, my noble friend prefaced his statement with the remark that this was part of a "great and urgent attack on world poverty". Seen in that light, can we really regard these proposals as at all adequate? We have a Commonwealth of 750 million people, very largely underprivileged and in great poverty and distress. We are not beginning to emulate the American efforts in their Peace Corps. I understand they will be up to a figure of 10,000 by the end of next year, and on relative strengths, both in personnel and money, we should achieve 3,000 by that time. I cannot help thinking, my Lords, that this is not a conscious, political, Ministerial decision, but is one that has been slowly worked up by the Civil Service and accepted by Ministers without much real concentration of thought and effort. I hope that is not so, but it looks like that.
Finally, may I say that, while we are all most grateful, and must be, to His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh for taking on any additional obligations of State in these days, it seems a pity that the societies have invited him to associate himself with proposals so inadequate.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am not quite sure what actual question my noble relative wishes me to reply to; but I would say this. First
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of all, I hope that I made it quite clear in the statement that this figure of 1,300 for 1965 was not the final figure but, as I said, one that we wish to increase in the years to come. But, as I also said, the limiting factor is that we are determined that there shall be no slackening in the immensely high standards so far attained. It is fair to say that Voluntary Service Overseas is only part of the contribution that we make to the emergent countries. There are 19,000 men and women in different walks of life serving in the emergent countries, and it is not quite a fair picture to regard our help to the emergent countries purely on what we do in this particular field.
VISCOUNT AMORY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the confidence the Government are showing in, and the increasing support they are giving to, the voluntary societies in this field will be enormously appreciated by them? Does my noble friend also agree that the response made by these young people—and their achievements when faced with these challenges—is something about which we all ought to feel proud in this country? May I ask the noble Duke whether I am right in thinking that the proposal is that the actual administration of the schemes, which require very personal touch with the volunteers and the projects they go to work on, will still remain in the hands of the voluntary associations? Lastly, may I ask whether he agrees that in the future, as in the past, the whole success will depend on the selection of volunteers of excellent quality, and in great trouble being taken to marry-up each volunteer to a project suitable to his or her character and attainments.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his very kind and sympathetic remarks. I can reassure him that, although the financial contribution of Her Majesty's Government is going to be increased, the administration of the scheme, particularly through the coordination of the Lockwood Committee, will remain entirely in voluntary hands. As I said, we are determined to keep up the high standards that there are at present, because one failure would undo the great deal of good that many successes bring. The key to the whole

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scheme is having the right type of young person.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, in view of the importance of this scheme, not only to the Commonwealth countries but also to the young people themselves, would the noble Duke consider inquiring from the universities whether they could arrange to allow this year to come after the boy or girl has left school and before taking up a university course? I think it is extremely valuable for young people to have this experience before they go to the university. May I also ask the Government whether they are going to remember that there is a country called Wales in the western half of these islands. We would much appreciate having a member on this Council.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am sure we are all conscious of the Principality, and I am quite sure that owing to the skill and merit of those who live there they will be represented on this Council. Regarding the first question, the number of volunteers overseas as school-leavers (that is, between the end of their school career and before taking up their university career) were 300 a year. The increase we are planning is to keep school-leavers at about 300, but we are going to have the main increase from the graduates. This is because the main demand from the receiving countries is for graduates rather than school-leavers. I have no wish to denigrate the work done by the school-leavers. V.S.O. came into being as a school-leavers' scheme. They do a splendid job and we hope that it will continue. But because the demand is primarily for graduates this plan to increase is primarily directed at graduate volunteers.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the voluntary societies referred to include the British National Council of the World Assembly of Youth, which is the world's non-Communist youth organisation and is supported by the Foreign Office to the tune of £6,000 a year in this country, and which has, of course, national councils in almost all of the undeveloped countries in which it is intended to do this work?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am afraid—and I must apologise to the House—that I cannot give a positive answer to that question. My recollection is that it is not represented; but I cannot be absolutely certain about this. Perhaps I can either write to or have a word with my noble friend and discuss this.

STAGGERED HOLIDAYS
4.5 p.m.
Debate resumed.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN: My Lords, I hope that in this debate we shall not take too pessimistic a view about the possibility of extending the present holiday period in this country. I do not propose to say anything about the difficulties, about the fixing of Easter, to which the noble Lord has referred. Personally I do not think these are difficulties at all; but I propose to leave this matter to my brother of Leicester. Nor do I believe that the very great difficulties of changing our present educational system or social habits are insuperable. We ought to remember, for example, that both on the Continent and in the United States of America it is possible to have an educational system which is not tied down to holidays in this particular month of August. I believe that it would be possible so to re-order the school and examination year as to have a month's holiday in June and another month in September; and as has already been shown, both of these months are infinitely better from the point of view of weather.
Nor do I believe for one moment that it is impossible to change social habits. In fact, this is constantly happening. I am continually told that in country matters the opinions of village people cannot be changed. I am told that particular villages will never work together because, it is said, they fought on different sides in the Norman Conquest. I do not believe this to be true. I believe this to be a piece of romantic arguing on the part of those who do not wish for change. If there is antipathy, it rarely goes back beyond a generation or so. Incidentally, in reading the White Paper. Staggered Holidays, I have some confirmation of the fact that so many of these Reports are,

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in fact, produced by townsmen. I have read through the Paper, and I cannot find any reference to that considerable section of the community who already take their holidays either early or late—the farm workers. These are a large number of people who, of necessity, must take their holidays at a different time of the year.
In this debate it is right that we should be concerned with the practical possibilities of implementing what is clearly a growing concern about this absurd concentration of holidays; and, indeed, if we did not do this we should fall under the judgment of John Dewey, who said that ideals without techniques very quickly degenerate into mere sentimentality.
But I wish to look at the matter rather more deeply and remind noble Lords of the factor which, in my judgment, makes these changes quite imperative. What we have to remember is that, apart from quite a small percentage of the population, holidays, as we now think of them, are a modern innovation. Until recent times the only breaks in the routine of daily work and labour were associated with Sunday or those two or three festivals of the Christian year; and this is really the first, or perhaps the second, generation where men have been able to hope for something more than just keeping body and soul together. Now, thanks to human ingenuity and a deepened sense of social justice, it is possible for the great majority of people to have a sufficiency, both of time and of things, to enable them to look up and take notice and observe what is going on around them. I believe that this is something for which we ought to be deeply grateful.
We all know that, in the emerging pattern of human Life which is coming out of our industrialised society, there will be a degree of leisure quite unknown in the past; but leisure, remember, is always bought at a cost and in some way or another the cost must be paid. For most people, the cost will be work which lacks the satisfaction or the fulfilment of the older sweat and toil. It may not make such demands on physical endurance, but it does make much greater demands upon a man's nervous and spiritual resources.
There are two crying needs which come out of this situation. First, there is the right use of leisure. And I could
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not disagree more with the writer in today's Times, with his complacent suggestion that in fact there is no such problem of leisure. There is a great deal more truth in the remark of Jerome K. Jerome, that there is no fun in doing nothing if there is nothing particular to do. We have to recognise that there will be a greater number of people year by year who expect to have some period of holiday away from their homes—I would go further, who should have a period away from their homes. Most people under modern conditions need the refreshment and the restoration which comes from a complete change of surroundings. I believe that that change of surroundings has to be of a deeper kind. It has to be a change of surroundings which suggests luxury—that is to say, for a period the normal conditions of life are different, of a rather higher standard. It should be a change of surroundings in which the ordinary little things are different. It is through this kind of change that a man's inward resources are renewed and restored.
A friend of mine, a man of great business enterprise, was going for his three weeks' winter sports, and I said to him, "Are you able to forget your business undertakings?" He replied, "I shan't give them a thought. But I shall expect to get one idea by the end of the holiday which will more than pay for it." I believe this to be true of the effect of holidays in relation to the whole working life of the community. If there is a healthy and good holiday for the whole of the community, in the end this affects the whole life and vitality of the community.
There is the possibility that holidays will be infinitely varied. We have already been told about the vast increase in the tourist industry, and, of course, this is good. That many people in our day move further afield and, because of the means of communication, are able to take holidays at the other side of the world, and, incidentally, are able to take holidays at a different time of the year—all this is something to be encouraged. I am immensely impressed by the extraordinary enterprise of young people, particularly of students who have very little money, in managing to take holidays by going to the other side of the world and back. But I think that the great majority of people will

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still want the kind of holiday which carries with it certain of the associations of the traditional holiday, a holiday which is without the fear of the unknown and in which they quickly relax. Because it is important that, wherever you take a holiday, the circumstances are such that you "drop into second gear" almost right away. This is the need which must be our particular concern, because it is precisely here that organisation is needed. And I believe that we have some indication of the ways in which this is already being obtained.
If I may be allowed, I should like to illustrate this point. Just after the end of the First World War, a young soldier of the Canadian Army, while he was waiting to be demobilised in one of the holiday resorts of this country, observed holidaymakers, on a wet and miserable day, with nothing to do, simply standing about in the shop entrances. That young man saw that here was a need and an opportunity. He was Mr. Billy Butlin, who I believe has been a great pioneer and a benefactor to a great mass of people in this country by providing the kind of holiday which people need, if they are to be refreshed, in which the amenities must be such as to give this suggestion of luxury. It must not be over-organised. I stay in a Butlin camp at least once a year and it is not over-organised. A holiday must be in the framework of a community in which people easily make friends and relax. This particular way of holiday-making has already been taken up by a vast number of organisations in this country.
I think that it is relevant here to look at the way in which this has been expanding. I asked Mr. Butlin how he had tried to expand the holiday period within his organisation, and these are the figures he gave me. By the end of this month, all the accommodation in the Butlin camps is fully booked up for the last week in July and the first three weeks of August—that is, for 280,000 people. After that, Mr. Butlin tries to persuade people to have their holidays either earlier or later, on condition that the cost is less but the amenities are the same. He tells me that in June, for example, there are now something like 100,000 to 140,000 people booked. But there is still obviously a great way to go.
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I think that the lesson of this is that we can persuade a great many people to take their holidays earlier or later—although we do not want to concentrate the whole holiday population in June, because it seems to me that then we should not be better off than at the present time, when it is concentrated in August—provided that when they take their holidays they get the kind of amenities and the community of holidaymakers that they want and that we do not give them the feeling that they are either having an ill-prepared foretaste or merely the "fag-end" of other people's holidays. If that happens, then nothing will make them go. But if there are amenities of the kind which make even our English weather of secondary importance, I believe it is possible to do this.
Here I should like to plead that the time has come in this country when we need a particular kind of holiday which has now become a social institution in America: the holiday camps which you see advertised in all the American papers for boys and girls still at school. This has become a great industry in America. I have met many people who have been to these camps, and also those who have run them, and I believe they are of enormous value, not only as a holiday for the youngsters, but for training in independence and in leadership. Many youngsters eventually become what are called "councillors": they go back year after year and spend a month or five weeks away from home. I believe that this is a thoroughly good thing.
There is one final matter that I wish to mention. We have been thinking of staggered holidays, notably concerned with holidays away from home, and I believe this to be very important. But we should also remember that there is a proper place for holidays which are not taken away from home; and, in particular, I want to plead that the Christmas holiday should be a much longer one. In my view, the holiday that comes in the midst of winter, when, whatever reason you give for it, the Christian radiance overspills, as it were, professional boundaries, is something immensely precious. There is no wonder that the wrong kind of Christmas spirit is so lethal when we attempt to put this unusual and unaccustomed upsurge

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of generosity into two miserable days. There should be a much longer period.
This past Christmas was a classic illustration of what. I believe to be shortsighted, economic meanness. We have this curious kind of neurosis about work. Can we not see that there are times (and our whole economy now permits this) when there should be this kind of leisurely holidays at home? After all, for most people Christmas is still a home holiday: the sort of holiday, like Sundays, when people do not get up and rush about, but do ordinary things. They potter about in their own homes, with their families; they are able to do the odd jobs, and to relax in worship and recreation; and as a result they have a deeper understanding of what their life is all about. This is something that is most important for the sanity of our community. I believe that the words of St. Jerome a long time ago are still relevant. He said:
"Choose for yourself some fit place where thou mayest take thyself out of the great storm and tempest of all thy cares and bestow some leisure upon thine own soul".
He does not see it as a sort of escapist, "pie in the sky" stuff, because he ends up by saying:
"We say not this to take thee out of thy daily life, but that thou mayest there find what such a man thou thyself oughtest to be in thy daily life".
4.24 p.m.
LORD WILLIAMSON: My Lords, I am happy to follow the right reverend Prelate and to have the opportunity of paying tribute to him on his maiden speech in your Lordships' House. He has spoken with great clarity and from experience, and these are qualities which are greatly appreciated by your Lordships. In congratulating the right reverend Prelate, I would add that we all sincerely hope that he will make many contributions in the future to discussions in this House.
I join in appreciation of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Molson, placed this Motion on the Order Paper and so provided your Lordships once again with an opportunity to ventilate what is a pressing problem. It is one that has been under discussion for some years, but it has become progressively more complicated and more urgent. The Trades Union Congress, which is naturally and vitally interested in this question, has always regarded it (more
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so of recent years) as a serious social problem, and from time to time has pressed for its solution. I agree with the right reverend Prelate that after a year's grind in a factory, in the workshop, in offices and other places, a holiday, preferably away from home, is a necessity, and good for the soul.
My noble friend Lord Champion asked me whether I would say where the Trades Union Congress now stand on this question. I am perfectly certain that they are ready and willing to consider and discuss with the British employers, Government representatives and other organisations to try to find acceptable solutions to the problem, which is not an easy one. The right reverend Prelate mentioned that at one time there were not any holidays. Then, after long pressure by organised labour, one week annually was conceded; that later became two weeks and nowadays three weeks is becoming the general pattern. I think it would be reasonable to suggest that in the future the longer period is not likely to remain at three weeks.
With all the scientific inventions, improvements in industrial techniques and automation, many people are now advocating greater leisure, and wondering what on earth we are going to do with it if we get it. Many industrial countries, certainly in Europe, have longer holidays than we have, but, as I said just now, we can expect longer holidays in the not far distant future. It is true—I think I ought to mention this—that in many cases where the three weeks have been conceded by industry it has been agreed, for many reasons, that the third week should be taken in the winter, or at any rate outside the normal holiday period; and this helps the congestion. On the other hand, there is a large number of people—and it is growing, I think—who wish to take the three weeks together and make one holiday of it in the summer; and those who are able to do so will, I believe, take advantage of this.
I was glad to hear what the right reverend Prelate had to say about holidays. Holidays should be welcomed; they are of great social benefit. But in present circumstances they accentuate the problems which are the subject of this discussion, because we are not taking the decisions that are necessary

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to cope with these longer holidays. A further factor which must be taken into consideration is that more and more wage-earners who hitherto have not been able to afford a holiday away are now able to do so because of better wages. The noble Lord, Lord Molson, gave the figures for people who go away on holiday—your Lordships will forgive me for repeating them: in 1956, 23 million; in 1962, 36 million, including those who took trips abroad; and it is estimated that in 1970, six years hence, the number of people taking holidays away will have risen to 40 million, nearly three times as many as in 1937, and twice as many as in 1956.
While all this additional holiday traffic is being built up, little or nothing is being done to lengthen the spread. Railways, roads, and the holiday resorts are being strained to cope with the enormous and constantly increasing build-up in five or six weeks, the period at the end of July, August and the beginning of September. Popular resorts have passed the point of being crowded; they are becoming jammed up, making the holiday anything but one of pleasurable relaxation. Much more serious, many local authorities are now becoming seriously concerned about possible breakdowns in their services, such as water supplies and the essential services of street cleaning, refuse collection and disposal. I read only the other day of one council having a special meeting about this because people are taking cars—not only holidaymakers, but weekenders—and flooding into a place at a rate with which they cannot cope. Mostly it is because of this very short, popular holiday period of August and the week at either side of it.
The Social Survey published by the Central Office of Information says that employment is by far the most important single factor at present limiting the choice of holiday dates, and refers to the employers' decision for either complete closure of the works or the rota system as the main factor in influencing decisions when to take holidays. But, surely, while it may ultimately be the employers' decision, the employees must exercise some influence in this decision. Where there is this choice, a substantial number of the employees will have
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children who are at school, and will prefer the closing down of the factory rather than the rota. What is more important, they prefer the closure right in the school holiday period. I read in the Survey—and this is also mentioned in the White Paper—that three-quarters of the firms in the manufacturing industry have closures. I understand that more and more are being brought into this popular period of late July, August and the beginning of September.
The reason why the rota system is not popular is, I am sure, quite evident to your Lordships. It means that an employee must take his holiday, at best at any time between May and September, and, in some cases between April and September. If this is done fairly, the employee can expect to get his holiday in the period of the school holidays something like only once every ten years. So this is not popular, and it is quite understandable that the employees want to get away, if they can afford it. If they have children, they are reluctant to take them away from school, and they become disgruntled employees if they cannot have their holidays in this particular period. In any case, I am sure that industrialists and noble Lords will agree that the rota system is very difficult to operate, and very often it is an impediment to the maintenance of production and efficiency. Therefore on this question of the closure there is strong pressure for it to take place about the same time, or within this very short period.
The White Paper refers to this point and suggests—which I believe is just beating the air—that industry's closure dates could not be staggered if the existing school holiday pattern remained unaltered. I know that if the workpeople have anything to do with it, or if they are consulted, we shall have the same pressures—not selfish pressures, but many employees with children at school do not want their holidays except in the school holiday period. The Social Survey goes on to say that school is the next most important restrictive factor, after employment, to the choice of holiday. But as the White Paper implies, industry would be able, and no doubt willing, to arrange for staggering if something could be done to adjust the period of school holidays. So we go round. We have all these statistics and we come

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back full circle to the restriction of the schools. Of course, it is well known, as I have mentioned, that employees become disgruntled over these holidays. It is extremely difficult. I have never known how many employers keep their factories running, arrange for these holidays and accommodate everybody, and prevent people from becoming too disgruntled. But I do know cases where employees have left one employer for another, for no other reason than that they have a better choice of holiday.
So I am certain, after giving a great deal of thought to this question—and I realise the great difficulties—that it is not easy. I am not suggesting it is. But I think it comes down to the problem of finding some solution to the restriction of the school holiday period, or at least to some flexibility, which I think would make a great deal of difference. I believe that if the school holiday period could be extended—not for longer holidays, but so that holidays were staggered over a longer period—this might be an advance towards a solution. I do not know, but I suppose there are those who will say at once, "It is impossible". But it ought to be examined. If the school examinations could be taken earlier in the year so that those employees with children to consider could keep their children away from school without interfering too seriously with their schooling, the examinations having finished, they would have nothing to worry about.
Noble Lords have spoken on this question of bank holidays and statutory holidays, but there is one decision which I think is long overdue, and that is the movement of the August statutory holiday. We have a substantial part of the population in our resorts, on the roads and on the trains, and we let loose the whole nation for another weekend holiday right in the middle of it. How can we expect all the services to cope? I think it is silly and ridiculous. If the bank holiday were taken in September, it would lessen the period between that holiday and Christmas. If we deferred the present August holiday until September, and then worked until the next holiday at Christmas, that would seem to me to be a very good thing to do.
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I will not detain the House any longer. I emphasise that it is not easy, but I sincerely trust that the Government will now do something about it. This now becomes a Government responsibility. It is no use asking people to do this and that, because they simply will not do it while some of these circumstances exist, and therefore the responsibility is on the Government, and I sincerely trust they will take some action.
4.39 p.m.
LORD MCCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, and others, I would say that the whole House is indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Molson, for raising this subject this afternoon, for it is a social problem of the first importance, and it is almost the only social problem of the first importance that I know of which we could solve quite easily if we really put our backs into it and got down to work. And it would not cost us any money but, rather, would save a very great deal of money indeed; and it is the fact that nobody is there really to give the matter a push that we have talked and thought about it for so long, and virtually nothing has been done.
The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, will remember the discussion we had on the N.J.A.C. with the Minister of Labour three or four years ago when most of the points that have been brought up to-day were discussed and it was found, as so often happens, that the views of the employers, the trade unions and the nationalised industries all agreed. They were all of the opinion that something must be done before the whole system broke down. Yet nothing has been done up to now except for a further survey and an admirable White Paper—and now we want something done. I think we ought to congratulate the Board of Trade on hunting up every conceivable particular regarding this problem, for now we have no excuse not to deal with it. We know what people want, why and when they want it, and, surely, something must be done.
As the noble Lord, Lord Mabane has shown, the present position is grossly uneconomic, but a point which I do not think has been brought out fully is that it must negative a very great deal of the good that a holiday should do to

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people, both to their health and to their general well-being. To go off for a holiday and come back again should mean that one returns with renewed vigour to face the autumn and winter. Instead, one often returns exhausted from the struggle to get away and back again. After all, when we come to consider it, renewed health and well-being is the whole object of the exercise. With regard to the roads being packed, I remember an occasion two years ago when I was on the road between Honiton and Exeter and I thought I was going to be there for the rest of my life.
The amusements, the hotels and everything are packed at these peak times, and then, two, three or four weeks later everybody is crying out for people to go and occupy the amusements and facilities which are provided. And now, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, has said, the railways are taking a hand and are going to close many of the ways by which one can get to seaside and other holiday resorts, and the difficulty of getting to those places will be much worse than ever.
I believe that the first thing which the Government can do is to deal with the bank holidays—and this is a relatively easy matter. As the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, and others have said, we ought to make a start at once about moving the August Bank Holiday into September and making the Whitsun Monday holiday a firm holiday, say, on the last Monday in May, but the same day, the same week, each year. Easter is a more difficult matter. It is a matter of international and Church argument; but, with the lead which the Roman Catholic Church has given recently, I am sure it ought to be possible to solve it. The other two holidays are of more overriding importance and should be got on with at once. Both the August and the Whitsun Bank Halidays would, of course, need to be renamed. After all, we do not tie ourselves down in this way in Scotland.
The educational world is the next which has to be tackled; and surely that can be tackled. I sometimes think that educationalists are so accustomed to instructing young people that they forget that it is possible to be instructed themselves. In this matter, let us instruct
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them that they must make their academic years and their school holidays fit in with the requirements of the parents of the children whom they instruct. Having received that mandate, local education authorities should begin to do something about it, because the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, is quite right in saying that industry cannot act unless the education world acts too—and industry is ready to act if we can get a lead from the educational sphere.
So far as business and industry are concerned, I would say that office staffs, especially those not attached to manufacturing units, can always stagger their holidays over quite a wide period. But, of course, the office staff, a great many of whom have young children, would want to go at times when they could take their children, and I know that it becomes like a jig-saw puzzle to try to fit in everybody's requirements with the fact that you cannot leave one department completely untenanted while there is work going on in another. If we had a little more latitude in the school holidays, the operation of the staggering of holidays in these big business clerical concerns would be relatively easy.
When we come to manufacturing industry the problem is more difficult, because circumstances vary in practically every industry, and, indeed, in many plants. Some small plants are in the same town as larger plants, and where the girls may work in one plant and men in another the plants need to take their holidays together. I have in my own industry—in fact it is my own firm—a factory next door to a large railway workshop where the two have to run concurrently. Then there are manufacturers with automatic processes which may have to shut down altogether. They have to choose a suitable fortnight or so in which to do so; and, naturally, they choose the time when school holidays are available, and so add to the big rush.
But there are other factories which have to stagger holidays to meet the requirements of their customers; and, believe me, my Lords, we in business do have to think, sometimes at any rate, of the requirements of our customers who keep us alive. I do not believe we think about them enough.

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The whole art of selling should be to keep the customer satisfied. Many industries have to stagger holidays to keep supplies going to their customers all through the year. Therefore one cannot lay down a law, or even an instruction, to each separate industry as to what it should do. In Lancashire, with the admirable arrangements for the wakes weeks, industry can usually fall in very easily; but if only we had more movement in the school holidays the wakes weeks themselves could spread themselves out and Blackpool would not be quite so crowded as it is at the present time. We come back from the industrial point of view to school holidays, and I am afraid industry can do nothing to relax their present habits without some relaxation of the school holidays. Therefore, with the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, I would press that point.
I should like to cover one or two other points, but I do not want to delay your Lordships. I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, talk so eloquently about tourism, because I believe that tourism, with young people going all round the countryside, all round Europe and, indeed, all round the world, is one of the most promising signs of civilisation to-day. Tourism is a major industry and is of major benefit to the spiritual well-being of this world, and should be encouraged; and nothing would encourage tourism better than a more convenient arrangement of our holiday seasons.
The noble Lord, Lord Molson, mentioned a point of extreme importance—mid-week bookings so that day holiday makers going away on Saturdays to the coast do not necessarily get mixed up with those going away on their fortnight or three-weeks' holiday. That is a matter which the hotels and boarding houses will have to agree to fix up among themselves, and I am sure industry would fall in if they did. There are one or two other important points in the White Paper which I should like to bring out, but will not bore your Lordships. It is most interesting to me to know that the love of crowds, which is always supposed to be one of the reasons why everybody flocks away in the fortnight or three weeks in the year, is largely a myth, and that only a very small proportion of the people of the
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country have a love of crowds. It is interesting to know that if people could do so, and if school holidays and business allowed, the majority would like to go away in June. And how right they are! because June has the longest hours of sunlight, the best weather, and is in all respects the best month of the year.
I would urge, with other speakers, that this social problem should now be tackled and solved. If it is not, every year it will become more difficult. Fortunately, it is not bedevilled in any possible way by Party politics. All we need is a lead from the Government and a lead from the educational world, and I believe we can solve this problem in a very few years.
4.52 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I hope that your Lordships will not find it too much of an Ash Wednesday penance to have to listen to two Episcopal speeches on this subject. But holidays are a pleasant subject to think about in February; and I am quite certain it was no penance to listen to the eloquent maiden speech of my brother of Lincoln. He is not here to listen to what I say, but he may see it afterwards in Hansard. Those of us who are familiar with hearing him speak in other places are well aware of his great gifts, which he has already revealed to us this afternoon, and perhaps one distinguishing feature of his speech worthy of note is that he managed in one speech to quote both St. Jerome and Jerome K. Jerome. That was quite an achievement. I am quite sure your Lordships realise that the two are in every way entirely distinct.
We have, of course, to take an interest in this subject, because there has always been a kind of tie-up between religion and holidays. If we go right back to most ancient times, to the institution of the Sabbath, that is the first clear example that I know of in history of the division between time for work and time for rest; and the Sabbath, although transferred in the Christian Church to the first day, instead of the seventh day, has continued part of our Western tradition ever since. Even that should not be taken too much for granted. I remember having something of a surprise when I was doing a chaplaincy on the Continent. In the Alpine village

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where I was working a film was being made which had necessitated a very large rather international company of actors, and I was trying my various wiles to persuade them to come to Church on Sunday, at any rate in some numbers. But I found that Sunday was not observed in their company. They explained to me that they found it more convenient to have one rest day in ten. So I had a little bit of education myself, in the sense that even the regular rhythm of the seventh day must not be taken as established beyond all challenge.
Then, of course, it is well known that in the Middle Ages the Festival days offered an opportunity for relief from tedium and also for economic progress in the matter of the fairs, which were so important before the days of commercial travelling. I do not think that our country has ever had any false modesty about realising that religious and economic interests, and even military interests, could in some way be woven together. Some of your Lordships may know that in one of the homilies put out in the reign of Edward VI, in which people were being urged to eat fish on Fridays, it was pointed out that this was not only a valuable religious discipline but would have very valuable results in maintaining the industry of the fisherfolk. And, not content with that, they went on to say that if the fishing industry failed, the Navy would fail and the nation would be exposed to danger. So these things have always been brought together; and we must not be too mealy-mouthed about it.
The modern holiday, as has been said already, in the sense of going away, is for a large part of our population a modern phenomenon. Until fairly modern times it was the single day, either the actual bank holiday or something that had a bank holiday atmosphere, which provided the main opportunity for relief and change. Those of us who are familiar with Victorian literature will remember various instances where these public holidays are described, and they obviously played a great part in the lives of those times. I will not weary your Lordships with more than one example, but I did get down my rather tattered Tennyson to look up the passage at the beginning of the poem "The Princess", in which
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Tennyson describes a kind of fete in a a park, and these are some of his words:
"We went…
Down thro' the path: strange was the sight to me;
For all the sloping pasture murmur'd sown
With happy faces and with holiday.
There moved the multitude, a thousand heads:"
and continues, rather suprisingly:
"The patient leaders of their Institute Taught them with facts".
The poem then goes on to describe how all the various new scientific inventions were being illustrated and exhibited. That is an interesting example of the way in which they combined pleasure with intellectual progress one hundred years ago.
That sort of thing has gone down; has been replaced, as we have heard so many times to-day, by the holiday with travel, the holiday away from home. And at this point I would pay my tribute to whoever wrote the White Paper, Staggered Holidays, which contains such clear and full information about this matter—in fact, so full that it has been very difficult, I think, for those of us who speak to say something that was not already in the Paper. We could do no more than say the same thing in different words and give our comments upon it.
On the broad question of staggering the long holiday, if we might call it that, I feel that we ought to do everything we can in this way. But I do not hold quite such an optimistic view as my brother of Lincoln does about the ease with which such a social change could be carried through. I do not think it does any harm, when considering these changes, to count the cost and weigh the difficulties, because if the thing is worth doing we shall be more likely to achieve it if we have first counted the cost.
I am impressed by the way in which the whole of our national life is woven together in a rather complex pattern that still leaves August as the most vacant month, if I may use that description. It all goes back to the agricultural life of England; the necessity for a long vacation in the universities; the vacation in the law; the vacation in Parliament. And I suppose that from those early arrangements of our time has gradually come the

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assumption that August, and now also late July, is the normal and natural time for holidays. When we have, so to speak, just given holidays in this sense to the main mass of the people (I am speaking now in longish terms: I do not mean that we did it yesterday, but during this century), and when we have given this possibility to our people, we must not be altogether surprised if they want it at the time when others have had it before. And that, I think, largely explains the sort of first natural instinct of people to take their holidays at about this time.
Then instinct is, of course, buttressed by all the other considerations, especially in the schools, which make it so difficult for people to move their holidays about with complete freedom. Almost every speaker has stressed the importance of the schools. I should like to stress it from yet one other angle. Schools are particularly important in this matter because schools involve families, and it is the families that involve the numbers. Therefore, unless we can tackle this question, we obviously cannot make great progress on a wide front.
What can be done in the schools is limited. We have heard a lot about the bringing forward of the General Certificate examinations; but I cannot see everybody being free to rush off from school the minute the examinations are over, because the interval after examinations is a most important time for occasions such as speech days, sports days and other big events. It seems to me that what we have to work for is a bringing forward of the examinations, and a gradual lengthening of the summer holiday and a shortening of the Christmas and Easter holidays. If, with careful work and patience and consultation, we can save a week or two, perhaps at each end of the present school summer holiday, we shall have done something; and that itself will be most useful.
There is a sense in which some people like crowds, not because of the actual physical presence of other bodies—and still less of other motor cars—but because they are susceptible to a kind of psychological atmosphere. We ourselves have done a great deal to create this atmosphere. Our present publicity agencies immediately fill the papers,
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when a holiday is approaching, with news of the ever-increasing numbers going by train, by car and by air. People get caught up with this spirit; they want to be in with it. So we ourselves are partly to blame for the tremendous enthusiasm which we have built up around the traditional holiday period.
I entirely agree with the right reverend Prelate who spoke earlier that the nature of holidays has to be thought out most carefully, because holidays are most revealing things. Holidays tell us what we are. I am sure that many of us in this House have known what it is to work hard up to a certain point, suddenly find ourselves on holiday, and ask, "What am I? What is there in me now that all the work has gone?" So in our provision for the people, we have to give them an atmosphere, an environment, in which they can be themselves without being afraid of themselves. All this involves the provision of entertainment and so on.
Coming to the question of bank holidays, it is here that I see the greatest positive chance of something coming out of our debate. We are told that on an August Bank Holiday, for instance, 3 million people are thrown into the world of travel, in addition to all those who are already on holiday. It seems to me obvious that if we could reduce or abolish that particular invasion into the holiday world, we should have done a great deal to save space on our roads and in our hotels; and almost certainly, I think, we should save at least some lives. That itself is an incentive to us at this point to press this matter as far as we possibly can.
Perhaps I may say a word about Whit Monday, so that we can see the field as a whole. The most reverend Primate the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury was asked, either formally or informally, what the Church of England would feel about the abolition of Whit Monday as a public holiday. He has authorised me to pass on to your Lordships his opinion, which is that, after hearing the views of responsible bodies, he is of the opinion that the Church of England would not wish to oppose the suggestion that the bank holiday now falling on Whit Monday should be replaced by a fixed bank holiday unrelated to Whit Sunday. Such a bank holiday would

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not carry the name of "Whit". He is conscious that there may be some reluctance to lose the Monday following Whit Sunday as a bank holiday, because in some areas that day has been used for processions of Whit. Your Lordships who know the North of England will realise that this has been a great day for processions of Church children, and there will no doubt be some resistance from that quarter. Nevertheless, the Archbishop does not think that the Church people generally would wish to oppose what suited the convenience and the welfare of the country as a whole. So, in so far as there may be any feeling that the religious interests in the country would oppose a change from Whit Monday—
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, may I ask the right reverend Prelate whether he thinks that if the most reverend Primate says that Whit Monday is finished, then it will be finished? It is a workers' holiday, you know.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, the most reverend Primate was merely answering a question which was addressed to him, I think by some representatives of the Board of Trade, as to whether the Church of England would feel that from the religious point of view the removal of Whit Monday, and perhaps in some people's minds a downgrading of the Whitsun festival, would create difficulties. I think I have answered that question quite clearly. I do not feel myself bound to answer the question from the other side. It is obvious that nobody would claim that the religious side of this was in any sense the only one, or even an important one, in relation to the wide social aspect.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, may I thank the right reverend Prelate for his answer. It would not necessarily satisfy the worker if he were to lose a holiday with which he is quite familiar and which he greatly prizes.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: That I can well understand. I do not feel that it is necessary for me to comment further on that. All I was going to say—and I am now speaking as an individual—was that a case has been made out for a rearrangement and respacing of the bank holidays. So far as I can see, it
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need not in any way reduce the total number of holidays, and the difficulty would be to arrange them in a way that suited the largest number of people.
Here I must just intrude one word about Easter, merely to reaffirm what has been said a good many times: that the Church of England would not wish to oppose the fixing of Easter, provided that it was supported by a sufficient area of Christendom. It is well known that the Roman Catholic Church has recently made a rather liberal statement on this matter. I must remind your Lordships that Rome and Canterbury are not the only people involved. There are some others. We are not very much concerned with the Eastern Churches, because they have a different Easter anyway, a week later. I discovered this, to my cost, when I once had a party in Athens on what we call Low Sunday, and I found the conditions very crowded because it was their Easter Day. But there are also involved in this proposal the great Protestant Churches of Europe, the Lutheran Churches and the Evangelical Churches; so that, from the religious point of view, the matter may be a little more complicated than appears on the surface.
I do not myself think that it is in any way impossible for us to consider the fixing of Easter. As we have heard, there is already something on the Statute Book by which it is laid down that Easter should be, under certain conditions, the first Sunday after the second Saturday in April. I could not help thinking, when I read that, what a curious way it is of describing the next day—as if the first Sunday after the second Saturday could be anything other than the day after! However, if Easter were to be fixed then, of course, Whitsun would automatically be fixed; but we should not be bound to keep a public or bank holiday on the Monday. We could put it where we liked, and we should clearly want to get the August Bank Holiday put out of the main holiday period.
I myself should welcome it if we could keep up the connection that has gone on so long between holidays and the traditional Festivals of Christendom. We could offer your Lordships some quite attractive dates in the autumn which you might like to consider. For instance, Michaelmas day, September 29,

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would associate that Feast with something rather happier than the paying of bills and accounts. And there is October 18, which is St. Luke's Day, and is commonly known already as coming in the middle of St. Luke's Little Summer. That could be made a very good selling point by the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, at least, if not by us.
LORD MABANE: My Lords, will the right reverend Prelate add All Saints' Day, November 1?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: Yes, I have certainly thought of that. November has a slightly unhappy flavour in people's minds, from the point of view of the weather; but November 1 is often an extraordinarily nice day, with very attractive weather. In fact, one of the features of our national life seems to be that the good weather is moving steadily on through the year. At least that seems to be my own personal experience.
LORD LATHAM: What can you expect with the present Government!
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: Good times are al ways coming. I think that is an argument that could be used both ways. I am bound to say, in listening with such great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, that he had one or two friendly "digs" at the Church. I found myself questioning one or two of his points, especially the economic point when he said that if only we could do this there would be millions more pounds in the hands of the hotel keepers, and millions more in the pockets of the public. I hope that is true, but I could not help wondering whether some of the millions that were in the hotel keepers' pockets were coming out of the public's pocket. But these are subtleties into which I need not personally go. I want only to express on my own behalf, and I am sure on behalf of the Churches, our desire to co-operate in this movement, which we believe will increase the health and happiness of a large number of our people and therefore deserves the support of all men of good will.
5.15 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate that our best summer weather seems nowadays to be coming late and later in the year.
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Nowadays so often the two best months of the summer seem to be the whole of the month of October and the first eleven days of November, right up to Remembrance Day. However, August Bank Holiday has come in for a good deal of discussion in the course of this debate, and no wonder! It seems to be a magnet which is much too strong, drawing people on to the roads and the railways on that particular day, and it is a wonder that the chaos created is not even worse than it is. There has been a good deal of support for the recommendation in the White Paper that the August Bank Holiday should be transferred to a later date in the year, perhaps early in September. The only doubts I have about this is that I wonder whether the magnet will still not be too strong, whenever the date is, if everybody is going to take his holiday on that one particular day. I do not think any noble Lord has gone so far as to suggest that the August Bank Holiday should be abolished altogether, and I must say I hesitate very much, particularly in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, to put that suggestion forward; and certainly I would not do so without taking a very careful look at the circumstances surrounding the creation of the August Bank Holiday.
That brings me back to Sir John Lubbock, later Lord Avebury, whom the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, mentioned earlier. At the early age—early in the Parliamentary sense—of only 37, he piloted through another place the Bank Holidays Act of 1871, which was received with the most extraordinary and tremendous public acclamation. The Daily News of the following year, on the first anniversary of August St. Lubbock's Day, as it was then called, had this to say:
"It is perhaps difficult for the general public to realise what such a holiday means. There are thousands in this great city who are at work all the year round. The shops and warehouses are kept open by relays of attendants. In many of the larger of them the humbler employees may have—like the postmen—a fortnight's holiday in the year but to vast multitudes only a day of closing brings a chance of release. … This statute holiday gives a day in the fresh summer air—and let us hope in the bright summer sunshine—to tens of thousands of persons who might otherwise altogether miss the sight of the yellow cornfields or the summer woods."

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Times have certainly changed since those days. They then had no five-day week; no holidays with pay. The poorer people stayed at work because they could not afford to go away on holiday. They stayed at work from Whit Monday to Christmas Day. I think these words were re-echoed by the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Lincoln, in his most fascinating maiden speech this afternoon. Above all, there were, of course, no motor cars to congest and clog the roads. The circumstances could not have arisen then as arose on one of the bank holidays last year, when the B.B.C. reported in their ten o'clock news that the roads into Southport, which had been jammed with traffic all day long, were still jammed with traffic at 6 o'clock in the evening—traffic which was still trying to get into the town.
Times have indeed changed since those days, and one wonders in one's secret heart: do people in these days really need one special day's holiday in the summer time, above and beyond the holidays which they ordinarily enjoy? I would not seek to suggest that people should not have a special day if they really feel that they need it. But let us free the people, let us allow them to negotiate each for himself his special day's holiday in the summer to suit his own convenience, in so far as he can make the arrangements with his employer. There will, of course, be some factories closing altogether on one particular day, so that the people can go in motor coaches en masse to the seaside if that is what they enjoy. Other people, no doubt, will wish to tack their special day's holiday on to one end or other of their ordinary annual holiday. The important thing is that everybody will not choose the one, same day for their holiday, and that, surely, will be an enormous improvement in the state of affairs.
It may be asked: what is to happen to those sports fixtures which from time immemorial have taken place on the first Monday in August; those cricket matches and horse races which always take place on that particular day? Well, I do not see that anything need happen to them. A great many of the people who have formed a habit of attending these fixtures will, no doubt, be able to arrange still to do so. So it seems to me
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that, while we should not forget and should be grateful for the memory of Sir John Lubbock and his wonderful inspiration of the August Bank Holiday, we can nevertheless say that in these days of 1964 this bank holiday has perhaps outlived its usefulness, and we may perhaps seriously consider whether totally to abolish it.
5.23 p.m.
LORD AMPTHILL: My Lords, with other noble Lords who have spoken, I should like to express my thanks to my noble friend Lord Molson for putting this Motion on the Paper. I think it is a most important social subject, and I have found the speeches to-day very interesting, very forward-looking and very comprehensive, particularly the introduction by my noble friend Lord Molson. So there is very little left for me to say. When I originally told my noble friend Lord Molson that I would speak in support of his Motion, I did so because a few years ago it fell to my lot to introduce staggered holidays into the factories for which I was then responsible. Some of the factories in question were in Northern Ireland, and from time immemorial factories in Northern Ireland have always had their annual shutdown in Twelfth Week—the 12th July, when the Northern Irish celebrate the Battle of the Boyne. The Manchester factories, of course, shut during their appropriate wakes week and have done so for years.
We were obliged to introduce staggered holidays for sharp economic reasons. As many of your Lordships know, I am connected with the tobacco industry, and if we closed our factory for a fortnight we had to build up stocks, and we had to begin building up stocks very early in the year in order to cover the consumer demand during the time the factory was shut. As successive Chancellors of the Exchequer added to the tobacco duty it became increasingly unpleasant to carry stocks, and that is why we went to staggered holidays. Of course, we explained this decision to our workpeople, and we made every possible arrangement to make it easy for them. There were a number of difficulties which we succeeded in overcoming, but the least of the difficulties was in obtaining the co-operation of our people. I would just like to make that clear.

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Of course, we have to start building up our holiday lists very early in the New Year, almost immediately after Christmas. The foreman or chargehand of the department goes round in February, let us say, and begins to make up the holiday lists. One knows that one has to take one's holiday very early, but it is difficult for people to make up their minds so early in the year. I suspect that this year's holiday lists for our factories have already been compiled. But although we have succeeded in spreading the holidays over the period from May to the beginning of October, there are still a number of married folk with children who simply cannot take the earlier holiday. They are bound by the school holidays and so forth. There are other people whose wives or husbands work in another business which is still having the annual shutdown. Obviously, they want to spend their holidays together so they are confined to July or August—the peak period, in fact. These personal problems are difficult, and I doubt whether we shall ever quite get away from a peak of some sort.
However, there is one factor which is of increasing assistance to us in dealing with this aspect of the matter of getting people to take their holidays spread over the summer. The improved travel facilities and the improved earnings of people are making them more venturesome. They go further afield, and are beginning to realise that it is possible to ignore the summer weather, so called, in this country. When I first went to Northern Ireland some time before the Second World War few, if any, of our people there had ever gone further than the Isle of Man or Portrush. Very few went to Blackpool, none to the South of England. I well remember sponsoring a special excursion for some of the younger girls, under the charge of a welfare supervisor, to the Isle of Wight. In those days this was considered quite unique; they had never crossed the water before.
Since we are talking about Northern Ireland, this peak holiday period in July presents a particular difficulty, because one has to fly the Irish Sea or cross it by ship. This puts a big strain on the travel facilities. However, I am glad to say that more and more of the people realise the pleasures and advantages of
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foreign travel. Of recent years, when I have walked round the factories and talked to the people I have been told of holidays all over Europe, in North Africa and even in Canada and America—and a jolly thing it is, too. We even persuaded one of our older factory managers, who had never been further for his holiday than the Isle of Man, to take a holiday to Switzerland. After he had survived this, to him, unusual and venturesome journey, he unpacked his bag and emerged from his hotel, and he was astonished to find that the first people he saw were six girls from his own stripping room.
There are other problems regarding staggered holidays, but I think I have dealt as fully as I need with the most important aspect—the people. But it is difficult when you have staggered holidays to arrange for maintenance work. I am afraid I am getting down to nuts and bolts—we have had plenty of theory this afternoon. Moreover, boilers and all sorts of machinery generally need at least one annual overhaul, and it was very convenient when you shut the factory for a fortnight. Now, if you want to re-brick a boiler furnace or put new rings in an air compressor, you must first of all have a stand-by boiler or stand-by air compressor, you must have room to put them in, and then you probably have to do the job at nights and week-ends. So factory industrialists must make preparations before staggered holidays can really become effective. I am not saying it is impossible; I am just holding up the red flag.
Another great disadvantage of staggered holidays is that it splits up fully-trained machine crews—you cannot help it—and this is apt to have an adverse effect on the quality of production as well as on quantity; I put quality higher myself. Again, this means increased supervision, increased training facilities and so forth, but it is a factor of which care must be taken. With staggered holidays one's labour force is reduced by 10 to 12½1 per cent. during the period May to October, and this means that, unless one takes steps about it, one's production machinery is running at something less than the ideal economic rate. In the case of women workpeople, the gaps can be filled with temporary labour, and by the time the end of the holiday period has

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come they have become permanent labour because those really in the jobs have probably got themselves married or engaged during the holiday period. But in the case of men it is not so easy; it is a problem. I think I have said enough to show that management has not insignificant problems to cope with in arranging staggered holidays. So far as I personally am concerned, and my colleagues, we are very much in favour of it.
School examinations and holidays have already been mentioned, but I should like to refer to the statutory holidays, Easter and Whitsun. I do not want to join in the fray about whether we could or could not have a fixed Easter, but there is one advantage in having a fixed Easter which has not been mentioned in this debate. A fixed Easter would fix the date of the Easter Parliamentary Recess, which would be a good thing. It would also fix the date of Budget Day for all time, which I think would also be a good thing, because some industries, of which the tobacco industry is only one, are very concerned with any announcement the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes on Budget Day. It makes planning difficult for them—I mean the planning of production rates, and so on—when Budget Day is shifting from year to year. So often have I heard in the factories and in the board rooms, "What day will the Budget be this year?", because then you have to assess what to do in your production and other problems. So a fixed Easter would have that incidental advantage.
Much has been said about the August Bank Holiday. I feel it would be a very great advantage to put the August Bank Holiday back to the end of the month or early September, as has been suggested, but the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, seemed worried that either this or the changing of Whit Monday would remove the statutory holiday. I do not think anybody who has spoken to-day suggests that we should eliminate any of the statutory holidays, but merely that they should be moved up or down the calendar. My Lords, I have taken enough of your Lordships' time, and with those few remarks I beg to support the Motion of my noble friend Lord Molson.
5.35 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I think the problem has been posed,
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and it will not be necessary for me to try to prove the undoubted desirability of staggered holidays. As has already been pointed out, briefly, it leads to the more efficient use of both accommodation and transport, and it will undoubtedly lead to cheaper prices—or could lead to cheaper prices. I do not say that it would, because prices seem to go up but very seldom to come down. I think that, except for the 4 per cent. who, according to the survey, announced that they liked to be in a crowd, it would undoubtedly make people's holidays more enjoyable.
Why, therefore, should I speak, when according to the White Paper Scotland seems to have such a good record on this subject? In paragraph 1 it says:
"Since the problem in Scotland seems less acute and the holiday pattern is different …",
et cetera. The reason is that Scotland still looks to the English for the main bulk of their holidaymakers each year. We are, of course, very pleased to welcome from abroad an enormous number of foreigners, but, none the less, the vast bulk of the "cake" in fact comes from England, and it would help our problem if, throughout the holiday months, we could get a more even pattern of these tourists. It is therefore of great interest to us North of the Border that the holidays in England should be staggered as much as possible.
I think the problem can be divided into two: the week-end peak, which puts an enormous pressure on transport, amusement and other entertainment facilities but does not, on the whole, put a great pressure on accommodation, and then the July-August demand for accommodation, which is confined to the five weeks comprised in the last part of July and the first part of August. First, I should like to put forward a few suggestions—and these are only suggestions—for dealing with the problem of the week-end peak. I have often wondered whether, in twenty years' time, or possibly even less, we in this country will not have to work a continuous shift system (for the want of anything better to call it), by which I mean that the machines will be so expensive that they will have to be manned 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This, when it comes, will solve completely the problem of the weekend peak, because there will not be any

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week-ends as such; there will just be days when one is on duty and days when one is off duty. I was wondering whether we might not now occasionally adopt during the holiday period, say twice a year, a ten-day fortnight, when factories and works would keep open for one week-end and would then, in lieu, have a four-day week-end the following week. It seems to me that this might help the problem of the acute travel difficulties of the average Saturday at the end of July and the beginning of August.
I would also commend to your Lordships the Scottish system of having no statutory holidays as such but of having local holidays, varying from town to town. This works very well in Scotland and is undoubtedly one of the reasons why the problem is less acute there. I should have thought it might be worth trying in parts of England and Wales. Lastly on this subject, I feel that we must encourage boarding house and hotel keepers to welcome guests who start their holidays in the middle of the week. I am sure one of the greatest difficulties at the moment is that the average person who wants to go on a holiday and wishes to take advantage of the mid-week reduction in train fares and the general ease of travel mid-week cannot do so because the boarding house or hotel to which he and his family wish to go will not take a booking from Wednesday to Wednesday or Tuesday to Tuesday, but only from Saturday to Saturday. I should be the last person to suggest that we should compel people to take bookings when they do not want them; but I hope that the B.T.H.A. and the British Hotel-keepers' and Caterers' Association will encourage their members to do this.
Also, as another encouragement for people to arrive and leave in the middle of the week, perhaps the local authorities who provide amenities such as bowling greens, tennis courts, access to piers, deck chairs on beaches, and so on, could issue weekly tickets running from one Wednesday to the following Wednesday at a considerable discount on daily tickets or weekly tickets running from Saturday to Saturday. I can well believe that they will not want to do this. They say that their job is to please the public. This case, I suggest, might be one of the few cases where the customer is not necessarily right.
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I feel that a much more important problem is the question of the annual holiday. This peak is not caused, as the survey brings out, by people's preferences; in fact, if people could all take holidays when they wished then June would be in worse chaos than the first week of August is now. We could move too far towards people's preferences. But it would be a good thing, I think, if people were able to take their holidays more or less when they wanted to, although I realise the difficulties this would involve.
I should like to quote once again from the White Paper. Having in paragraph 1 given Scotland a rather better record than England, it says, referring to schools, in paragraph 19:
"In Scotland the pattern is rather different. The Christmas and Easter holidays are shorter, not exceeding 10 days to a fortnight, and with few exceptions the summer holidays begin in the last days of June or the first days in July."
If the examinations in Scotland can be fitted in so that holidays can begin in June—and in some places, I think, they start on about June 10—I cannot see why the same is not done in England and Wales. It seems to me that it must be due to the fact that the local education authorities and the Ministry of Education are not really willing to tackle the problem. I am rather disappointed that a representative from the Ministry of Education is not answering this debate. I could have told the Government before they started that the Department to be attacked is not the Board of Trade, whose White Paper I think is entirely commendable, but rather the Ministry of Education. It is they who are the "niggers in the woodpile", and who make it almost impossible for factories to take their annual week or fortnight away from the end of July and the beginning of August. Much as I look forward to hearing my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, I feel that it is a pity that he will not be speaking (and I take it that he will not) for the Ministry of Education.
If the Ministry of Education and the local education authorities refuse to do anything about this, the only thing we can do is try to persuade the other and rather smaller number of people who can take their holidays more or less at any time to take them either in June or

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September. To do this I would suggest that special weeks should be put on with unusual and special attractions during these periods. At the moment, attractions tend to be put on when the holiday crowds are greatest, in July and August. This seems to me to be a pity; although commercially and financially, it is sound business. I believe that one of the ways in which we could encourage people to take their holidays outside the main holiday periods would be by putting on special attractions for them at other times of the year. I would also suggest that there might be a greater price reduction to "off-peak" visitors. I have yet to find anywhere I have stayed, at any time of the year, where prices vary much from season to season; and I feel there would be scope for improvement in this way.
I should also like to point out, as did the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that many firms insist that when workers are given the third week's holiday—and on the whole I am in favour of people having three weeks' holiday—it should be taken outside the main holiday period. I think this is a very good thing. I can, of course, see that if people wished to go round the world, or to Addis Ababa, there would be an advantage if they could run their three weeks together. Perhaps in special cases, special arrangements could be made; but as a general rule I think that the separation of the third week is a good idea.
The main way in which we can help in this problem, if we cannot persuade the educational authorities to move, is by giving greater publicity to the weather statistics. June and, to a lesser extent, May and September, are undoubtedly the finest months in this country, from the point of view of hours of sunshine and lack of rainfall. Yet many people, according to the survey, when they were asked why they wished to take their holidays in July or August, said that it was because of the weather. Obviously, they either do not know the statistics; or have gone to one of these exceptional places where June is wet and August is dry. Above all, it must be remembered that this problem is not basically due to the "cussedness" of the British public—though they are often blamed—
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but is due to the attitude of the school authorities in refusing to alter the historical dates of their examinations, and hence of their terms. I know that a change such as has been suggested would raise some problems; but if it can be done—indeed, it has been done—in Scotland, I feel that it should and could be done in England. I would suggest, therefore, that possibly the Whitsun and August Bank Holidays should be made local holidays, as in Scotland. This should raise no difficulties with religious festivals at Easter. Incidentally, though this is not entirely within the orbit of this debate, I would suggest that we in Scotland might become sufficiently advanced to recognise that there is such a Festival as Christmas. We should then no longer have no holiday at all. Possibly it would not help to stagger holidays; but it would help to make the New Year more bearable.
I should like to suggest that there might be two experimental "ten-day fortnights" a year, where one week-end is worked and the next week-end is lengthened; that the school term should be completely revised in England and Wales, and brought more into line with Scotland; that employers and unions should get together and try to work out a more flexible attitude to works closures and that sort of thing, which I think can happen only if school terms are altered. Finally, I would ask why we at Westminster cannot give the lead in this great movement. Let us have a month's holiday in June and let us work to the end of August. This, it seems to me, would avoid those horribly late-night Sittings with which your Lordships are afflicted in July.
5.49 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, before the Minister replies, might I refer to the point made by the noble Duke, and also touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, who introduced this debate? I must apologise for not being in my place at the time. That is the question of the Summer Recess of the Houses of Parliament. It has been raised before; but I think it is admitted by all Members of both Houses that by the end of July Members are apt to find things rather trying; their spirits are flagging and, frankly, they are not in a very good

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condition in which to govern the country because they have been worked too hard and too long. In the old days it was a different matter altogether. But nowadays I marvel at the way Members of the other place keep going at all at the intense pressure at which they have to work. And I am quite sure that they are not as good instruments of government at the end of July as they are at the beginning of May or at the beginning of November.
At the moment, we work right up to the end of July, sometimes into August, and do not come back until the very end of October. It must be the experience of most of your Lordships, as it is mine, that from the first day of October until we come back, one has a feeling of being at half-cock. Things are happening; business is going on; meetings are again taking place which have been put off for the holiday period: and in one sense this is a wasted period. I suggest that Parliament should rise at the end of June and re-assemble at the end of September or the beginning of October.
I am told that the chief objection to this is that it would interfere with the Budget year. Well, there is a thing known as the Annual Year, which starts on January 1 and goes on to December 31, and I do not see why it is beyond the ingenuity of the Government or of those who advise them to change our Budget Year and make it, like the normal commercial year, start on January 1 and end on December 31. I suggest that that would remove the difficulties about postponing the Recess for Members of your Lordships' House and of another place at a time when they are overworked and over-tired and should be having a holiday.
5.52 p.m.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, if I may detain your Lordships for a few minutes, I would express my regret for not being here when the noble Lord, Lord Molson, spoke. Since I have been in the Chamber, a number of noble Lords have mentioned the fixing of the date of Easter. Your Lordships may remember that last year I initiated a debate on this subject, and it was in an exchange this afternoon between the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, that it occurred to me that, in the researches which I carried out before that debate
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and in discussions since that occasion, I came upon the point which I think the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord were touching on—that is, that many laymen and most clerics sincerely desire to keep Holy Days and holidays separate.
The right reverend Prelate referred to the wording of the Easter Act, 1928, which lies on the Statute Book awaiting the day when its provisions are brought into force by Order in Council. I read the wording in this way. Under the Act, Easter shall be the second Sunday in April, except when the 1st of April is a Sunday, in which case, Easter shall be the third Sunday. Therefore, under the Act, Easter would fall between April 9 and April 15.
From that date, I turn to what the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, said about fixing Whit Monday. I think that he was referring to a holiday about that time. Under the Easter Act, if and when it is brought into force, the holy day Whit Sunday would be, at the earliest, May 28 and, at the latest, June 3. The noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, referred to the other advantages which would flow from a fixed Easter, but that is not the subject of our debate, and I trust your Lordships will forgive me for this brief intervention in what has been a most interesting debate.
5.55 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate, and I should not have done so had I not realised that what the White Paper is trying to do is to alter what has become by long tradition a kind of observance. One appreciates the difficulties in an industry which has a large number of employees who more or less have to remain with machinery which must be kept operating because any interference with its continuous operation would mean a great loss of funds. But I wonder whether we are not ignoring the fact that we are in the midst of a transitional period which will change the kind of traditional holiday that we have been in the habit of arranging.
The idea of holidays is not a new one. There have been Jubilee years, which go back to Biblical time. There have been Sabbatical years, enjoyed by people in higher education and in unversities.

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And to-day there is the tremendous "push" of holiday advertising, in most attractive forms and colours, almost indecent in some respects, which tries to persuade people to think of spending their time away from work, as though work itself were something unpleasant. Is it possible that this White Paper has not been productive of any kind of procedure for rearranging holidays for the masses of the people—not for those few who can take holidays whenever they wish—without interference with essential industry?
When one thinks that to-day one can charter an aeroplane from here to Canada at a reduced cost, which enables the majority of people to be able to afford it, and that people can pay for their holidays on the hire-purchase system, one realises that we are up against a series of problems, and not merely one, which affects the whole of the economic and social structure of the country. That does not apply to this country only, because in Germany, France, Italy and other countries, in spite of the better weather enjoyed there, the people still desire to get away from where they are. I appreciate that a man and wife with a young family want a change, not only to benefit the children, but also for themselves, to get away from their surroundings. But I am not sure that the result is always refreshment and restoration, especially when they do not speak the same language as those around them.
I come back to my question: Are we not in this White Paper trying to do something which entails so great a break with long-established tradition that we cannot possibly hope within a short period of time to achieve something that would make for a really efficient distribution of leisure for the people as a whole? Do not let us forget something else. I do not think that the word "automation" has been mentioned in this debate. We are bound to recognise that we are not far distant from a time when the amount of leisure will be greater, because human muscle will no longer be necessary to the extent it has been. Indeed, I am told that automation has reached such an extent that you get your electronic device at one end and a completed motor car is produced at the other end without a human hand
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touching it. That is the kind of thing that we must envisage and, if necessary, prepare for.
I would remind your Lordships that in the adult education world there are in England something like 25 residential colleges. In Scotland, there is, as yet, only one permanent residential college, although there are summer schools, such as St. Andrew's and others. These adult residential colleges are being increasingly used. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that, although the period for the short courses is rather short, the benefit can hardly be overestimated. One can say from one's own personal experience that people go there, ostensibly for a holiday—and, in part, it is a holiday—but so invigorated mentally are they by what they hear, and what they are asked to do in the way of response to the lectures they have attended, that they are better enlightened and better-minded citizens as a result of this short course form of residential adult education. My hope and belief is that this sort of education will continue to increase; that we shall see the cumulative effect of this tremendous amount of work that is being done (it is not very well advertised, I am sorry to say; nevertheless, it is growing, in interest and support) and that staggered holidays will be a matter of, shall I say, more or less indifference, because the method of spending time will not be by lying more or less naked in the sun, but by benefiting mentally, as well as physically, from the short holidays we can take.
6.2 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, my first task must be to join in the congratulations that have been offered to the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lincoln on what was a most eloquent and illuminating speech, which I know the whole House enjoyed. We look forward with great anticipation to his taking part in our future debates. Perhaps it would be worth while commenting at this point that, curiously enough, this has been an entirely masculine debate, and we have not had any of the noble Ladies who belong to this House taking part. I wondered, from some of the remarks made by the right reverend Prelate,

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whether, if they had been here, they would not have said that perhaps the supreme luxury to them was not to have to clean and cook.
The Government warmly welcome this debate. As has been said by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Leicester, it has been designed to increase health and happiness and also to reduce congestion and waste. I would thank particularly the noble Lord, Lord Molson, for having raised this question. We have been talking, as I say, about congestion, and I think perhaps it is symbolic that he was once the Member of Parliament for the High Peak. The Government will wish to study this debate closely, and if I do not comment on all the many suggestions that have been made it will not be because I do not think them important, but because I am not in a position to do so intelligently at the moment.
What I think must have struck all noble Lords is the great measure of agreement that has been shown in the debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, said, in a most noteworthy and constructive speech, much has been done, and much more can and should be done. The Government started this off in a way by the moving of Summer Time. There have been many individual moves away from the peak periods of holiday travel which have been made by many firms, as referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Champion, Lord Mabane, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, Lord Ampthill and others. As the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lincoln said, in these matters there are difficulties, but they are not insuperable; and this point was also clearly brought out by the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, in a most interesting speech based on his own experience. One comment was that there has been no mention in the course of this debate of the farm worker. I think the reason must be that we are here concerned particularly with those who, so to speak, form part of the peak and, therefore, can shift; and certaintly no disrespect is intended to the farm workers in this matter.
May I refer to some of the ideas that have been put forward? One was that there should be more separate days of holiday. Another idea is that if main
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holidays are too bunched, individual day holidays are too spaced out; and I took note particularly of the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, that there was nothing between August and Christmas. There was the idea put forward by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lincoln that Christmas should be a longer holiday, and the suggestion by the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, that Christmas should now be a holiday in Scotland. I think that, de facto, it pretty well is already: because the Scots have a way of getting things both ways when it suits them. The noble Duke also put forward the idea, which I am bound to say I did not fully understand, about ten-day closures.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: People should work for ten consecutive days and have four days at week-ends.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I take the point. This is one of the points that we should have studied.
I was also interested in the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, and I think it was fitting that he made the sort of speech he did at the end of the debate, because what has been so significant is the willingness of everybody in the House to accept change; the appreciation that we are in a transitional period and that these changes have to be accepted. Different noble Lords went different lengths in saying how far at the moment they were prepared to accept change, but the theme of the whole debate has been the need for change and the willingness to accept it and, I think, urging the Government to hasten this change along. The right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Leicester said that the whole of our national life forms a pattern, and that August is the most vacant month: vacant, maybe, from the point of view that it is the month in which fewer people may have to work; but, by the same token, it is the month in which there is the greatest congestion from the holiday point of view.
What caused the Government to study this problem was that, while the number of people taking holidays away from home has doubled since the war, the pattern of holidays has remained the same. As standards of living improve,

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the numbers will increase still further; and if nothing is done the peak which was already the peak will grow higher and higher and render the peak holiday season more and more uncomfortable. Holidays with pay are becoming longer. People are, as the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, said, becoming more venturesome. I thought he took that as something, so to speak, on the credit side; but from this angle it is very much on the debit side, because, to the extent that they become more venturesome, they use more transport and other services.
The study (this has been said already, but I think I should repeat it) reveals that twice as many people are taking holidays for a week or more away from home, that nearly two-thirds of that number are taking them in the months of July and August, and that nearly a quarter started their holiday within the fortnight at the end of July and the beginning of August. The problem is made greater because nearly three-quarters of all holidays start at the week-end, and because there is a further exodus of a day or more at the August Bank holiday. All this puts a fearsome strain on accommodation facilities.
The result of the study has been a Social Survey which, I think, has been only once referred to in the course of the debate to-day, and the White Paper, which has been much referred to and which the Government published in order to inform the public and to encourage discussion with a view to concerted action, the more so as it is plain that nothing less than concerted action is required—a concerted national effort, as the White Paper says, to ensure that people, including those who come here from abroad, get the maximum benefit from their holidays. I was very glad indeed that my noble friend Lord Mabane stressed the part that the British Travel and Holidays Association have played, not only in attracting foreign visitors here but in analysing the difficulties that we are meeting with in the holiday seasons here, and doing a great deal to overcome them. He has had a most successful, vital, energetic, and constructive three years of office as chairman of the B.T.H.A., as it is called, and I hope he will long be able to serve as President.
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If holidays in this country can be staggered, then, of course, not only will life be more pleasant and the break from the routine of work more satisfying for our own holidaymakers, but also more overseas visitors will be attracted to visit our cities and to see the beauties of our countryside. As has been said, tourism is big business these days. The B.T.H.A. consider that if the holiday season can be extended over the four months June to September, with some overspill into April, May and October, not only will the United Kingdom and overseas tourists and holidaymakers enjoy themselves better, but there will be a gain of many million pounds a year to the national economy—and I will not enter into discussion with the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Leicester, as to how that particular gain will be distributed between particular pockets.
The proposals put forward in paragraph 27 as to the steps that could be taken in various spheres come under four main headings: bank holidays, school examinations, industrial holidays and action by the trades catering for the holidaymakers. The needs are quite clearly to spread the holiday period over a longer period, to get more people to start their holidays mid-week and to get more hotels and boarding houses to accept mid-week bookings in the peak season.
Could I deal for a moment with the question of bank holidays, which has perhaps taken up as much of the debate as any other single point? I note what my noble friend Lord Mabane said in regard to the number of them, and I was extremely interested by the one, if I might say, dissident, possibly prophetic, speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, on this subject, when he seemed to indicate that the day would come when there would be no bank holidays at all because we should have a sufficiency of holidays elsewhere. I think, as the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said, it will not come perhaps very quickly; but at any rate it is a point of view worth considering.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, may I say that what I noticed during this debate was the constant reference to the old days. Living in an industrial area,

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I could tell this House that the old days are still very much with us, both with regard to labour and to wages.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I was not really making reference to that particular aspect of the old days at the present moment, but I appreciate the noble Lord's point of view.
As the White Paper points out, bank holidays contribute to the problem mainly because of the additional day trips made and the short holidays taken in connection with them. Nothing can be done to reduce the volume of this traffic: indeed, traffic is bound to grow. But a later date for the August Bank Holiday would at least remove this slice of traffic from the summer holiday peak, whilst a fixed holiday that would always fall at a date fairly early in the season in place of the present Whitsuntide Bank Holiday would tend to relieve the summer peak by encouraging more holidaymakers to take their holidays early. As the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Leicester said, that would not only improve conditions but might well save lives.
The majority reaction to the White Paper that we have had from the country favoured a date for August Bank Holiday on the last Monday in that month. We shall never get unanimity on a question like this, and it seems that the farmers view with some misgiving a public holiday at the height of the harvesting season. As to the spring holiday, educationists would prefer it to be deferred until the end of June, so that there would be no interference with examination arrangements and preparations, but the more general preference was for a spring holiday fixed on a Monday either at the end of May or early in June.
The most reverend Primate's message, which was delivered by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Leicester, was very welcome in this debate. He conveyed the most reverend Primate's message that he is of opinion that the Church of England—I think I noted it correctly—would not wish to oppose the change. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development, is considering the question
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of bank holidays with his colleagues, and hopes to be in a position to make a statement before long. Whatever is done, we shall have to ensure that adequate notice is given of these changes. There are a number of interests concerned. For example, there are the makers of diaries and calendars. There are, as has been referred to, the processions of children in connection with the Churches, and there are certain bodies like the friendly societies, whose annual meetings are fixed in relation to Whitsuntide. This gives some idea of the problems involved and an indication that it will take a long time, at any rate, before any such change could come into effect.
A good deal was said about the date of Easter. As has been said, this is a question which is not necessarily bound up with the separate question of the present bank holiday. But I thought that, apart from this, the comments that were made by my noble friend Lord Ampthill and by the noble Lord, Lord Rea, were perhaps more for my noble friend the Leader of the House than for me, and so I shall leave that point there.
Now I come to the question of the school examinations and holidays, which I think a great many noble Lords thought quite crucial. I hope I shall be able to make it plain that the school authorities are not as inflexible as my noble friend the Duke of Atholl thought, and, indeed, that instructors are capable of being instructed in matters of the public interest. The G.C.E. is a limiting factor only in a small number of cases, and yet, because of this—partly because it is so critical in the lives of so many—it goes very much wider indeed than the particular cases that are affected by the examinations.
School examinations are, of course, a matter for the examining bodies concerned. Noble Lords will be glad to know that the Secondary School Examinations Council, on which these bodies are represented, has now requested them to arrange as soon as possible that their examinations will be completed each year by the end of June. I recognise that a great many noble Lords have expressed the opinion that this is too late, that it should be by the end of May, as examinations in Scotland are completed by the end of May. We may very well have to move

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by stages in this affair. I know that time works against us, but, at any rate, this is one of the subjects that will have to be closely studied. It is hoped that this change may be introduced in 1965; that is, that the examinations should be completed each year by the end of June so as to make all July the holiday month for families with children of school age.
I think it is worth noting that it will still be convenient for local education authorities if all schools in any one authority area have holidays at roughly the same time, if only because, as the White Paper says, the best advantage can be made of ancillary services such as school meals and transport only if they are being fully used. What is perhaps more important is that it would clearly not be a good thing for children or their parents if children of different ages or different capabilities or bents in the same family found their school holidays were at different times.
There are sound educational reasons for having the main examinations in the summer and towards the end of the term, as the right reverend Prelate said, rather than before Christmas or in the winter months. I do not think there was any suggestion in the course of the debate to-day that the examinations should be be moved away altogether from the summer months. Only in the long university and school holidays are examiners available to mark papers for G.C.E. "A" and "O" levels. If I may say so, this is one of the ways in which the position in England differs somewhat from that in Scotland, because in Scotland there is a core of examiners who I think are capable of going into action virtually at any time in the year. Summer is traditionally the end of the educational year, and it is the time of year when examiners are least likely to find that ill-health prevents the candidates from sitting or affects their performance. The point was made that we may well be working, and should be working, towards a stage at which the summer holiday is longer. It is longer in Scotland than it is in England and Wales, and certainly if the period of the school summer holiday could be made longer in England and Wales it would also help.
I come now to the question of industrial holidays. This appears to be the
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most difficult aspect of the problem. As the White Paper indicates, the majority of firms in manufacturing industry close down entirely for a couple of weeks each year. This is convenient from the point of view both of suppliers and customers; and closures, which are already dictated to a large extent by the demands of plant maintenance, will be dictated even more so with the development of automation—and I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, that it was surprising that the word "automation" was not mentioned until the very end. It would help if closures could be staggered over a reasonably extended holiday season. At present, more often than not the shut-downs in manufacturing industry fall within a few weeks of the holiday peak for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, made clear; that the workers with families are bound to insist that they have their holidays at the same time as their families. It would help, too, if town holidays on the pattern traditional in Lancashire, Cheshire and the West Riding of Yorkshire were generally introduced. In those parts of the country the closing down of factories and workshops as arranged between the towns themselves is spread out over the summer.
I was particularly interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Champion, had to say of the experience in Rochdale and what has been done there, and the preferences that were expressed in the cotton industry for an earlier holiday. I think we should be a little wary of taking entirely at their face value the preferences for June, because, of course, when those who take their holidays in July and August were asked why they would prefer to have a holiday at some other time, the reason they gave, in 40 per cent. of the cases, for their preference for June was because of overcrowding during August and July. If there were a big transfer to June, then that reason would no longer operate; so, as I say, I do not think we can take the preferences for June entirely at their face value.
I was also greatly interested in what the noble Lords, Lord McCorquodale of Newton and Lord Ampthill, had to say about the rota system within the manufacturing industry, and particularly in what Lord Ampthill had to say about the way in which he had overcome this

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difficulty. Of course, the more it is possible—and we know the limitations—to have staggering within a factory itself, the wider the spread can be made. But this is not a problem that can be tackled by direct Government action: its solution can be worked out only within industry, and probably can emerge only gradually. In recent years, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, and the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, said, it has been one of the subjects studied by the National Joint Advisory Council. Provided school examinations can be completed earlier than they are now, neither side of industry, I understand, would see any great difficulty in spreading industrial holidays over a longer period, especially if the August Bank Holiday could be postponed to the end of the month.
My Lords, the last point I want to mention is action by the trades catering for holidaymakers. It would not be possible to induce many more holidaymakers to take their holidays in off-peak periods unless amenities and entertainments were available in holiday resorts at these times. I was interested in the suggestion made by my noble friend the Duke of Atholl that special attractions should be put on at the "off-peak" periods in holiday seasons, but this is the "hen and the egg" all over again. Of course, if the holiday resorts authorities see signs of people coming in sufficient numbers to justify putting on these amenities and entertainments they will be the first to put them on. They will welcome the opportunity. There are plenty of enterprising people in holiday resorts and, of course, the local authorities are vigilant to secure the interests of their own towns.
There are certainly already indications of growing preferences in industry for holidays in June, as has been mentioned in the course of this debate; and I think it is worth noting that, according to a social survey, nearly 30 per cent. of holidays of people living in London and the Eastern regions already start in June. An extension of the holiday season is obviously as much in the interests of the travel and holiday trades as in those of the holidaymakers themselves. I think this is what my noble friend Lord Mabane had in mind. Certainly the British Travel and Holidays Association have always been a staunch advocate of
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the staggering of holidays and have carried out useful, though limited, publicity in support of this campaign. I say "limited", but I am sure that they would have liked to do more if they had had the money. As and when any changes are made which will give scope for greater freedom of choice on the part of individuals and families planning their holidays, a major publicity drive, stimulated and co-ordinated by the British Travel and Holidays Association, would be most helpful. But such a campaign would clearly need the active co-operation of the resort authorities and the holiday trades.
Reference has also been made to the possibility of financial incentives. The whole process of easing the holiday peak period could, of course, be assisted by financial incentives, and much is already done by British Railways, by the airlines, and by coach and bus service operators, through reduced fares for out-of-season and mid-week holiday travel. In the same way, most hotel and boarding-house proprietors quote much lower prices in the off-season. But no doubt more can be done to stimulate the greater staggering of holidays by the offer of financial inducements of various kinds; though, as the peak gets evened out over a period, these financial inducements, which will be designed to start the movement going, will also, of course, tend to disappear. Then cheap travel rates in mid-week will be of little avail if the concession is not matched by a readiness on the part of those running hotels and guest houses to accept midweek bookings.
The Government hope that the holiday trade and all those who, in one way or another, cater for the travel, the accommodation and the entertainment needs of holidaymakers will play their part in what must be a concerted national effort to ease the problem of holiday congestion, which is already serious and, if not tackled, will become worse. Success in these efforts will make for the greater benefit, comfort and safety of us all. If there were a steady flow of mid-week bookings throughout the period (and this was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson) there would be no difficulty. What one would like to see is that, if industry and commerce and the professions show that they mean to take seriously the

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objective of easing weekend travel congestion, hotels and boarding-houses will, to put it colloquially, "play ball" with them. I believe that they will, because it will be in their own interests to do so.
My Lords, in all this, so much depends on knowing where to start. The general feeling in this debate has been that a start should be made by the Government on bank holidays. That feeling I have noticed, and will convey to my right honourable friend. As I have indicated, the Government are already considering action on the spring and summer bank holidays. The Secondary Schools Examination Council has recommended to examining bodies that they should get their examinations finished in June, after which more rapid progress and spacing out of factory closures can reasonably be expected. That is the process of tackling this problem that I envisage. It is not one that the Government can tackle alone. It is one for a concerted effort by all, and I think that your Lordships' debate to-day has shown a most heartening determination on the part of everyone who has spoken to see that the problem is dealt with. I only hope that the same response will come from the rest of the country.
6.35 p.m.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, I think we have had a most interesting and satisfactory debate. There has been a remarkable consensus of opinion among all the speakers, with possibly only a few philosophical doubts added by the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill. There has been agreement not merely on the desirability of some steps being taken in this direction, but even upon what the steps should be and what their order should be; and as my noble friend Lord McCorquodale of Newton emphasised, what is required now is action. I was therefore glad when my noble friend the Minister of State said that what was now required, and what I imagine he was prepared to give a lead in inaugurating, was a concerted national effort.
I think that the timing of this debate is appropriate. It is some nine months now since the Government produced their White Paper Staggered Holidays, and after these nine months of gestation we have had a speech from the Minister of
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State which indicates that there is likely to be some result. We all welcome, I am sure, what he has said about a forthcoming statement on the matter of Bank Holidays from his right honourable friend.
I was glad also that he noted the general consensus of opinion among the speakers to-day that the chief cause of the difficulty is the lateness of the conclusion of the G.C.E. examination, and I was very glad that he indicated that something would be done to try to urge the eight or nine examining bodies all to conclude their examinations before the end of June. I do not wholly like his suggestion of progress by stages. I think that if a change is going to be made it would be far better to make the change so that it is all concluded by the end of May. As I mentioned before, Birmingham has set an example in this matter, and of course Scotland, as is nearly always the case, has set an even earlier example, and therefore there can be no question about the possibility of the examination being concluded in the month of May. No-one suggested that the examinations should be held in winter. If all the examination boards conclude their examinations by the end of June, it will not be any great advance upon the practice of the majority of them at the present time. I hope that the Oxford and Cambridge Examination Board, which appears to be the slowest of them in concluding its examinations, will not allow the convenience of examiners—based, I understand, partly upon social and sporting fixtures—to interfere with the reorganisation of the examinations in the interests of the country as a whole.
I should like to thank all those who have participated in this debate. It has been distinguished by a maiden speech, which we all greatly enjoyed, from the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Lincoln, and by speeches from many noble Lords who, in various ways, have sought to serve the cause of the wellbeing of the country as a whole. We have heard from representatives of the Trades Union Congress, and from the employers—with a most interesting speech, if I may say so, from my noble friend Lord Ampthill, dealing with the practical difficulties which arise and which we are most anxious to face, and

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which he has so perseveringly overcome. In conclusion, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mabane, who has taken, as the Minister of State said, such an active and valuable part in this work. Having thanked everybody who has taken part, I would ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker
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that the Bill is a Money Bill, within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a, and to be printed.

INTERNATIONAL HEADQUARTERS AND DEFENCE ORGANISATIONS BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with an Amendment; the said Amendment considered, and agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty-one minutes before seven o'clock.