Sitting of 16 December 1964

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  CLYDE NAVIGATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
  GLASGOW CORPORATION CONSOLIDATION (WATER, TRANSPORT AND MARKETS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Police (Establishment and Recruitment)
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the total approved police establishment for Scotland, and the actual numbers in post at the latest convenient date.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross): As a result of recent increases, at 31st October last, the authorised establishment of the service was 10,343 men and 383 women; the actual strength was 9,469 men and 331 women.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is the Secretary of State aware of the urgent need to try to achieve the approved establishment for the Scottish police? Has it been drawn to his attention that one of the reasons expressed in police circles for the difficulty in recruiting men and women is a tendency to criticism in high places, even including the House of Commons? Will he try to make it clear that we have the utmost confidence in our Scottish police and fully appreciate the excellent way in which they carry out their duties?
    Mr. Ross: My hon. Friend will be aware that I have been one of the first to resist this unfair criticism of our police force. I do not doubt that it has an effect on the morale of the police, and I deplore such attacks. But my hon. Friend may be aware that if he had asked me this question about six months ago he would have been told that the amount of under-establishment then was half the present under-establishment. The present position really reflects the increase in establishment brought about by the introduction of the shorter working week on 1st July this year.
    Mr. Monro: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that Scottish police forces have been rising steadily both in numbers and quality?
    Mr. Ross: Yes, they have been rising in both numbers and quality, but we must get up to establishment. We cannot be complacent about this situation. We need more recruits of the quality that we are getting at the moment.

    Education (Administration and Finance)
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the need to overhaul the control, administration and finance of Scottish education, he will advise the setting up of a Royal Commission to examine and report at an early date on these matters; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Ross: No, Sir. Such an inquiry would be inappropriate in view of the review of local government finance now in progress.
    Mr. Dempsey: In view of the fact that Scottish education over the past 30–40 years has been examined by committee after committee dealing with different sections without correlation, does not my right hon. Friend agree that if we are to have a review of local government from the point of view of its finance and structure we might also have a comprehensive review of Scottish education as a separate service, rather than have the matter dealt with on a basis of sectionalisation, as has happened in the past?
    Mr. Ross: The review taking place within this sectional inquiry will be of considerable value to us. My hon. Friend asks for a report at an early date. I must

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    warn him that Royal Commissions do not usually report at an early date. They take two, three or four years, or even longer.

    Hydro-Electric Schemes
    Mr. Russell Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will mike a statement concerning those hydroelectric schemes proposed by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board which have been postponed.
    Mr. Brewisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further proposals for hydro-electric schemes in the Highlands he will authorise in 1965–66; and what will be the total cost.
    Mr. Ross: I have nothing to add at present to my replies of 10th and 11th November to the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Alasdair Mackenzie) and my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan). The estimated total value of schemes at present under consideration is about £14½ million.
    Mr. Johnston: Is the Secretary of State aware that his Answer will cause some concern? Is he not further aware that the attitude which his party expressed in the election and before it was quite clear? Can he assure us that this attitude is not changing and that the Government are determined to press ahead with hydro-electric schemes at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Member that my attitude has not changed. But we have had a very long delay with these schemes. I hope that the hon. Member does not blame me for that. Conditions have changed within the last four years. At the moment I have before me a very long, complex and technical report. It deserves proper and adequate study, and certainly not a hasty judgment.
    Mr. Brewis: Can the right hon. Gentleman say that the excellent progress made with the very large scheme at Ben Cruachan is continuing? Can he give us an assurance that this programme will not be delayed by the financial difficulties of the present Government?
    Mr. Ross: I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. The scheme is progressing well. It will be of considerable
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    benefit to consumers not only in the Highland area but throughout Scotland.
    Mr. Manuel: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that if he were making a statement it would show conclusively that, because of postponement and delay by the former Government of proposed schemes for the Highlands, the cost now will be considerably greater than it would have been if earlier consideration had been given?
    Mr. Ross: I do not think there is any doubt about it. If this scheme had been proceeded with four years ago, it would have been very much cheaper than the capital cost today.
    Mr. Galbraith: When considering this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman remember that there is not only a need for electricity in the Highlands but also a need for jobs? Is he aware that if he allows the schemes to go ahead it will help to solve the problem caused by the depopulation of the Highlands?
    Mr. Ross: The House will see what I have to try to sort out—the advice I get from the father and the advice I get from the son.

    Rural Electricity Supplies
    Mr. Russell Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to act on the recommendations of the Mackenzie Committee and make an interest-free loan of £8 million available to the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board to enable them to bring electricity to those areas which still lack it.
    Mr. Ross: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of 11th November to my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan).
    Mr. Johnston: Is the Minister aware that delay in linking these areas which still lack electricity is a very serious social problem and one which deserves the most urgent treatment? Will he give me an assurance that he will take action on this matter as soon as is humanly possible, as this is a very serious social question?
    Mr. Ross: I have referred the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave on 11th November, which was that I should

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    review the position in the spring. The £8 million was part of a package deal of the Mackenzie Committee. It was not accepted by the previous Government, and I doubt whether the Hydro-Electric Board liked the idea. It put forward a scheme to spend £6½ million over a period of six years. It may well be appropriate to look at this to see what is being done. I think permission was given to spend £550,000 to £600,000 over the first two years, and I shall be looking at this matter in the spring.

    Agricultural Returns
    Mr. Stodartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will arrange for the half-yearly agricultural returns, which are at present made on 4th June and 4th December, to be made instead on 27th May and 27th November, respectively.
    Mr. Ross: No, Sir.
    Mr. Stodart: May I put two points to the right hon. Gentleman about which I ask him to think seriously? The first is that most tenancies end on the 28th of either May or November and, therefore, returns on that day or the previous one would make administration much tidier. Secondly, is he aware that lie has a statutory obligation to pay certain subsidies to an occupier of a farm on the 4th of the month and, therefore, it is perfectly possible—indeed it has happened—that an outgoing tenant has suffered injustice and unfairness?
    Mr. Ross: I might be tempted to ask the hon. Gentleman why he did not make this change himself. It may be that an examination of the records would show him what it showed me. Scottish farmers are not "blate" in making protests about unfairness. The records show that in the last three years the number of cases in relation to disputed claims for subsidies were one in 1962; two in 1963 and two in 1964. The records also show that as many people close their accounts on 31st May as on 28th May.
    Mr. Stodart: Will the right hon. Gentleman be fair enough to say that this matter did indeed exercise me? The fact that there are very few cases does not mean that they should be ignored. Fairness should be done.
    Mr. Ross: Yes, but it is hardly a justification for making a whole change in the scheme.

    Housing (Elderly People)
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will reaffirm the guidance issued to public authorities in Scotland to make provision, in their housebuilding programmes, for a proportion of dwellings to be suitable for the elderly.
    Mr. Ross: Yes, Sir. Housing authorities will have my full encouragement in making suitable provision in their housing programmes for the elderly, and in providing a variety of dwellings specially designed to meet their needs.
    Mr. Campbell: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this answer will be welcomed particularly because of the views of some of his hon. Friends in the last Parliament which were opposed to the building of smaller suitable houses and flats for this purpose?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it may not be very encouraging to some of his hon. Friends who have expressed themselves as being opposed to the building of council houses for anybody.
    Mr. Manuel: When authorising house building for elderly people will my right hon. Friend consider the question of subsidy provisions in order that the houses may be let at rents which old people can afford? Is he aware that they are precluded from applying for council houses today because of the increase in rents?
    Mr. Ross: My hon. Friend will be aware that the provisions are such that no matter what the size of the house the subsidy is the same. To that extent the subsidy is more favourable in relation to houses for old people than to other buildings.

    Growth Areas
    Mr. G. Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent it is his policy to continue the principle of growth areas put forward in the programme for Central Scotland published in November, 1963.
    Mr. Ross: We intend to sustain the high level of public investment which the

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    regeneration of Central Scotland requires, and to keep up the pace of development in the new towns and the other expanding areas. At the same time we are reviewing the, Central Scotland Programme so as to import into it a more specific industrial and economic content, and to secure a better balance between Central Scotland and the other regions.
    Mr. Campbell: In other words, the right hon. Gentleman proposes to continue with the programme which was started by my right hon. Friend. Does this mean that he has changed his mind since the debate in this House just over a year ago—on 3rd December, 1963— when he was rashly critical of this programme and described it, among other things, as "Alexander's Ragtime Band"?
    Mr. Ross: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong in his allusion— [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]— I may have described the Government of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) as "Alexander's Ragtime Band", but not this so-called scheme. In fact, this so-called programme was just a collection of things, already approved and going on, gathered together. We are going to implement those things which are useful and necessary. In addition, we are doing what I believe even the Scottish Council asked us to do and, for the first time, putting into the programme the industrial and economic element which was lacking. Until we get that, we shall not get growth in Scotland of the kind that we all want.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that when next the Government announce some further advance factories for Scotland the factories will not all be concentrated in the central growth area?
    Mr. Ross: We shall give favourable consideration to putting them where they are required.

    Rates
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the burden of local rates per head of population in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and Greenock, respectively, in the current financial year.
    Mr. Ross: Approximate figures are, for Glasgow £27 10s., for Edinburgh
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    £21 17s., for Dundee £21 15s., for Aberdeen £24 8s. and for Greenock £18 3s.
    Mr. Taylor: Would the Secretary of State agree that these figures are particularly high, especially for Glasgow? In view of the heavy rate burden in Scottish cities, particularly those which are Socialist-controlled, and the prospect of an increased burden by the Government's financial measures, will he make it obligatory on local authorities to provide facilities for the monthly payment of rates?
    Mr. Ross: My hon. Friend will appreciate that rates are inevitably high in industrial cities. As he knows, industrial subjects are still to a certain extent derated and, in consequence, the heavier the industrial element in a city the greater the burden. He will also appreciate that this rating business reflects the problem for the local authorities in these industrial cities of carrying the burden of replacing a century of slums.
    Mr. Noble: Does the Secretary of State intend by his reply to suggest that the derating to a certain extent of industry is something that should cease?
    Mr. Ross: I am only pointing out what the right hon. Gentleman should know, that it reflects a further burden upon other ratepayers.

    New Town (Irvine Area)
    Mr. Nobleasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the results of his consultations on the new town in the Irvine area with the local authorities concerned.
    Mr. Ross: As a means of giving the local authorities a clearer picture of the form which a major development might take, and of identifying sites suitable for early development without prejudice to the longer term, I have asked an eminent planning consultant to prepare a basic plan for the area which might eventually be designated as a new town. Consultations are proceeding but will not be concluded until the consultant's interim report is available.
    Mr. Noble: While appreciating that the right hon. Gentleman has a particular interest in this part of the world, does he realise that the consultations carried out by planning officers earlier in the

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    Scottish Office did identify this area as the most suitable? Will he, before long, be able to come to a conclusion about it?
    Mr. Ross: The right hon. Gentleman will know that, compared with him, I am at a distinct advantage in that I know the area and the local authorities. He will appreciate that even in the last statement which he made, on 15th September, he said that his preparedness to designate the area was subject to consultations with the local authorities. These are going on.
    Mr. Noble: I am prepared to admit that the right hon. Gentleman knows the area better, but that could be a disadvantage in this case.

    Maternity Beds, Glasgow
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if it is his policy to end the system of planned early discharge of women after confinement in maternity hospitals; if he is aware of the urgent need for more maternity beds in Glasgow; and what steps he is taking to give effect to the Montgomerie Report.
    Mr. Ross: There is no scheme for planned early discharge, that is to say within 48 hours of confinement, in Scotland. The present average length of stay in maternity hospitals in Scotland is eight and a half days and in Glasgow is nine days.
    I am aware that more maternity beds are still needed in Glasgow. The regional hospital board plans to meet the main deficiencies on the Montgomery standard in about three years' time by new building in progress and being planned.
    Mr. Hannan: While that Answer gives me some reassurance on the overall situation, will my right hon. Friend satisfy himself that no area will claim that the Montgomery Report is being observed by this method of the quick turnover of beds, and will he ensure that women are assured of proper treatment in hospital?
    Mr. Ross: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance.
    Mr. Stodart: Is it not a fact that the hospital confinement rate in Scotland is far better than that in any part of Great Britain? As to the urgency of providing maternity beds in Glasgow, is it not a
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    fact that 930 are needed and that 900 are provided? Is this not a great tribute to the work done for hospitals by the late Government?
    Mr. Ross: Because it is better than elsewhere does not mean that it is good enough. The deficit in the Glasgow area by itself is estimated at about 70 beds, and we are making provision to meet that deficiency.

    Old People (Welfare Services)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will initiate consultations with local authorities for the purpose of creating a unified and comprehensive welfare service for the care of old people.
    Mr. Ross: I am anxious that the services provided for old people by local authorities, Government Departments and voluntary bodies should be as comprehensive as possible, that there should be full co-operation and co-ordination between the different services and that information about them should be readily available to old people. My Department is in regular touch with local authorities about the best means of achieving these objects.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the Secretary of State aware that the proposal in this Question is not for a new service, in addition to the existing services, but seeks a coordination, as my right hon. Friend suggests, of the existing services so to avoid overlapping and duplication?
    Mr. Ross: I am aware of my hon. Friend's concern, which I share. We certainly do not want the services which are available not to be used simply because the old people do not know about them. There should be people employed in local authorities making it their job to co-ordinate this work and ensuring that information about what is available is made known as widely as possible.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a revolutionary discovery has been made in Motherwell and, I believe, in London, to the effect that many of these old people, if given a square meal, cease to be bedridden and begin to lead normal lives? Is he aware that at Lamb's House, Edinburgh, mid-day meals have been successfully provided and

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    have given old people a purpose for going out during the day? In other words, is my right hon. Friend aware that a square meal has the effect of contributing to the mobility and well-being of these people?
    Mr. Ross: There can be no doubt about that. However, there is also the question of old people who are not mobile. I am sure that for them the Meals on Wheels services provided by local authorities and voluntary workers are equally valuable. What we want to do is to ensure that information about the services which are available for the elderly is made known to them.

    Hill Farming and Winter Keep Schemes
    Mr. Stodartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is carrying out a review of the hill farming and winter keep schemes.
    Mr. Ross: The question of how best to assist hill farmers is one of the matters which I will be considering in consultation with the farming industry in connection with the forthcoming Annual Review.
    Mr. Stodart: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will not take the same steps as his predecessor in 1950, when he last carried out a review of the hill farming subsidies, which was to cut altogether both the calf subsidy and the fertiliser subsidy and thereby bring production virtually to a standstill?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that farmers are very concerned that they should retain the benefits of these subsidies which, I remind him, stem from the Labour Government's Hill Farming Act, 1946.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Is the Secretary of State aware of the particular problems of the smaller farmers in the upland areas who do not have very much arable ground and who have not benefited tremendously from the winter keep scheme? Will he keep the problems of these farmers in mind?
    Mr. Ross: I will not promise special steps, but we will have a good look at it.

    A.74 (Dual-Carriageways)
    Mr. Monroasked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what dates it is proposed to start construction of the dual-carriageways from Underwood-house to Hill Tollbar and from Hill Tollbar to Mossband railway bridge on the A.74 Glasgow-Carlisle trunk road.
    Mr. Ross: I hope that it will be possible to authorise both schemes in 1966–67.
    Mr. Monro: Is the Secretary of State aware that there is widespread feeling in the south of Scotland that the advance south over the Border of this important new road is being delayed because England is dragging her feet? Will he consult his Scottish right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to see if something can be done about it?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have already consulted my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport about this. Do not blame us for the delay, for this road was started in 1938.
    Mr. Steele: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I received a letter from one of his predecessors in 1955 indicating that this double carriageway road from Carlisle to Uddingston would be completed by 1965? How far are we from that promise?
    Mr. Ross: I must resist the temptation to be political. I am trying to be very non-political today.
    Mr. G. Campbell: In the same vein, does the Secretary of State agree that this is an important industrial artery for Scotland? Will he keep up the momentum of the work on this dual carriageway, not since 1938 but of more recent years?
    Mr. Ross: I never had any doubt that this was an important industrial artery for Scotland.

    Aberdeen Fishing Industry
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the loss and damage inflicted on the Aberdeen fishing industry by trespass on their fishing grounds by

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    foreign fishing fleets; and what steps he is taking to strengthen and increase Scottish protection fleets.
    Mr. Ross: I am not sure that I understand what my hon. and learned Friend has in mind. Nearly all the grounds fished by the Aberdeen fishing industry are on the high seas and as much open to foreign fishing vessels as to our own.
    Mr. Hughes: Does my right hon. Friend not realise that there are traditional fishing grounds which have been customarily fished by Aberdeen fishing fleets for many years—indeed, for many generations—and will he strengthen the fishing fleets by adding to them observer planes which will enable them to see poaching fishing fleets at a greater distance? Will he take steps to that end?
    Mr. Ross: I am aware that the Aberdeen trawlers have lost valuable and traditional grounds by the extension of the Faroese limits. My hon. and learned Friend will be aware that Her Majesty's Government acquiesced in this situation. I am glad to say that Aberdeen trawlers have in the meantime been enjoying reasonably good fishing elsewhere. I hope that that continues.

    Disabled Persons, Aberdeen (Motor Vehicles)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the number of mechanically-propelled vehicles which were supplied for the use of seriously disabled persons in Aberdeen during each of the last five years; and what opportunities are given for the exchange of old vehicles for the latest types.
    Mr. Ross: The figures, which include cars for disabled war pensioners, are as follows:

    1960

    …

    11

    1961

    …

    24

    1962

    …

    10

    1963

    …

    7

    1964 (to November)

    …

    11

    Vehicles are inspected annually by the Technical Officer on the staff of the Appliance Centre, and are replaced as necessary.
    Mr. Hughes: My right hon. Friend has not dealt with the subject of exchange
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    referred to in the Question. When effecting the exchange of old cars, will he bear in mind that many of these disabled persons need help? Will he provide them with cars which will enable them to have with them a nurse or some assistant to help when they go from place to place?
    Mr. Ross: The vehicles are exchanged and replaced as necessary, but I have a feeling that my hon. and learned Friend is drawing my attention to the distinction which exists in the provision as between disabled ex-Service men and National Health Service patients. I can assure him that, while we are sympathetic, we cannot at the moment make any change in relation to this distinction.
    Mr. W. Baxter: Will my right hon. Friend look at the Regulations appertaining to people who are considered for vehicles such as this, as the Regulations at the moment seem to lay it down that if the leg is amputated above the knee a vehicle will be provided but that if the amputation is below the knee no vehicle will be provided? Will he look into the Regulations in order to amend this?
    Mr. Ross: I have already looked at the Regulations. My hon. Friend is quite right; the Regulations are very tightly drawn in relation to the severity of disablement. My hon. Friend will appreciate of course, that there are limits to what we can do in this respect, and it is right, I think, to meet the needs of those who are more severely disabled, earlier and to a greater extent than others.

    Lime Subsidy Scheme
    Mr. George Y. Mackieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the new lime subsidy scheme penalises Highland limestone quarries and favours English shippers of limestone; and if he will take steps to remove this cause of dissatisfaction.
    Mr. Ross: I have nothing to add to the reply which my hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member on 9th December.
    Mr. Mackie: Is the Secretary of State aware that in previous seasons more than 5,000 tons of lime have gone from Ullapool—giving employment there—to Caithness during the liming season, but that now those concerned are undercut by about 5s. a ton, due entirely to the depot subsidy given to English lime

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    landed at Wick? Is he aware that if this sort of thing goes on it will severely tarnish his image as a progressive Secretary of State for Scotland?
    Mr. Ross: Well, we must not let that happen. But I can assure the hon. Gentleman that he is being far too gloomy about the prospects of the Scottish limo industry. I know that the cutoff at 100 miles has affected one of the quarries in his area, and there is also the question of the depot contribution. As a matter of fact, I spoke about this, and was one of the only Scottish Members who did speak about this, when it was introduced. We have promised to look at this matter in respect of its operational working. Beyond that, I am not prepared to go at the moment.
    Mr. Stodart: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the Ullapool production is being, or has been, delivered outside the range of the cut-off? The bulk of it is, I suspect, delivered inside 100 miles.
    Mr. Ross: The bulk of it is delivered inside a range of 100 miles, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says. I shall be glad to give him the actual figure if he puts down a Question.

    School Building
    Mr. Buchanan-Smithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to increase the rate of school-building in Scotland in order to meet the raising of the school-leaving age in 1970.
    Mr. Ross: In conjunction with the education authorities, my Department is assessing the additional accommodation needed for the raising of the age, and decisions on capital investment will be taken as soon as practicable in the light of this assessment.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his consideration of this matter, but is he aware of the extremely unsatisfactory answer given by the hon. Lady the Under-Secretary of State last week? Is he aware that local authorities are very anxious to get ahead with their plans in order that they may be ready for 1970?
    Mr. Ross: I am also aware of the extreme disappointment in Angus and
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    Kincardine over what happened under the previous Administration in regard to Brechin High School and Mackie Academy. But the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this is more than just an exercise in school building. We have to see what kind of accommodation is required, and we are presently conducting a pilot study with five local authorities to assess the needs, and how best to meet those needs. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we hope to reach our decisions in time, and to get the buildings ready in time to meet the rise in the school-leaving age.

    Fishery Protection (Inshore Waters)
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for improving the present system of fishery protection for inshore waters.
    Mr. Ross: I think the present arrangements are generally adequate, but I shall certainly keep the whole question under careful review.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is the Secretary of State aware that that is a rather disappointing reply, as there is increasing dissatisfaction among fishermen and other people at the degree of protection afforded against poaching and against foreigners? Is he not aware that modern techniques of breaking the law in this respect seem to have outstripped by far the means of enforcing the law and that we need a far more determined approach by the Government to help the fishermen?
    Mr. Ross: While I can agree with the hon. Gentleman, I thought that the reply I gave in the first place was very satisfactory.

    Herring Trawling
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the practice of trawling for herring by inshore and near-water vessels.
    Mr. Ross: Except where trawling is prohibited by law, the method of catching herring is quite legitimate and is much practised abroad. The herring fishermen in this country have not

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    generally favoured trawling, but the Herring Industry Board think it has advantages and I am at present considering proposals by the Board to assist herring fishermen to become proficient in trawling.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is the Secretary of State aware that that Answer will give more satisfaction to the fishermen and that they will welcome some definition by the Government of their policy towards trawling for herring, as difficulty has been experienced in certain ports by our own fishermen in seeking to dispose of their catches of fish caught by this method?
    Mr. Ross: I have had reports of this difficulty, and I deplore it. I am glad to say that there were other ports where the fishermen were able to dispose of their catches.

    Ayr Bypass
    Mr. Youngerasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects work to commence on the completion of the Ayr bypass.
    Mr. Ross: I have not yet been able to assign a date for this scheme.
    Mr. Younger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that traffic is at present being diverted from the present end of the bypass through residential areas, the streets of which cannot take this volume of traffic? Will he agree that this is now more a matter of safety than of convenience, and would he be prepared to receive a deputation to discuss the safety aspect?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, as I am one of the residents in the area concerned, and a victim of this traffic diversion, I entirely agree. It was a pity that the late Government did not listen to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) on this very subject, but it may be that, the opportunity having been missed, other things have come along with greater priority.
    Mr. Younger: Will the Secretary of State answer my request to receive a deputation to discuss this matter from the safety point of view?
    Mr. Ross: I shall be very happy to consider that request.

    Rents
    Mr. Galbraithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the average rent of local authority houses.
    Mr. Ross: The latest available rent figures relate to November 1963, when the average council house rent in Scotland was £34. 9s. 4d. a year, or 13s. 3d. a week.
    Mr. Galbraith: If the average is 13s. 3d. a week, it presumably means that some rents will be less than 13s. 3d. Does the Secretary of State think that an average rent of 13s. 3d. a week is reasonable when earnings in Scotland are over £16 a week? [HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] Further, is he aware that the leader of the Glasgow Corporation said that he could build more houses if he had extra financial resources, and do not these low rents now being charged prevent cities like Glasgow from having a pool from which they could build more houses? Will he— [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]— use his influence to get backward local authorities, most of which, I am sorry to say, are Socialist—[Interruption.]——to charge more reasonable rents and so remove the unfair burden that at present rests on too many ratepayers?
    Mr. Ross: Those were six very well read supplementary questions. First of all, the hon. Gentleman should appreciate just exactly what the statutory duties of the Secretary of State for Scotland are in respect of this matter. There has been no change during the last 13 years in those statutory duties—and the hon. Gentleman was at the Scottish Office for three years. I have no intention of becoming a dictator and laying down rents for local authorities to charge, but I do expect local authorities to be reasonable and to adopt a reasonable attitude. But the policies of the late Administration were not such as to create that attitude amongst local authorities.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the average rent of municipal houses in Glasgow; and what average rent would require to be charged if no contribution were made to Glasgow's housing accounts from the city's rates.
    Mr. Ross: The average council house rent in Glasgow in November 1963 was

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    12s. 2d. a week. In order to balance the corporation's housing revenue account for 1963–64 without any contribution from the rates, an average rent of 23s. a week would have been required.
    Mr. Taylor: Would the Secretary of State agree that there is a scandalous position in that more than one-third of the population of Glasgow, irrespective of need, are being subsidised by the other two-thirds? Will he make efforts to persuade Glasgow Corporation, as did the last Secretary of State, to take some action? Can we expect some action from him, and what action will he take?
    Mr. Ross: The actions I take will be in accordance with my statutory responsibilities. Responsibility for fixing rents is laid fairly and squarely on the local authority. The Government which the hon. Member supported—and, I dare say, proclaimed that support pretty widely during the recent election—made no change in that regard. I do not propose to change that basic statutory responsibility.
    Mr. G. Campbell: Do not artificially low rates in certain areas deter private building, which was mentioned in the previous Question? Does not this mean less housing in Scotland?
    Mr. Ross: I do not agree with the hon. Member. I think private building is deterred in Glasgow by the absence of sites, by the absence of land.

    Houses for Letting
    Mr. Galbraithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent it is his policy to encourage the building of private houses for letting.
    Mr. Ross: The Government's policy is to encourage the provision of more houses of better quality.
    Mr. Galbraith: That does not answer my Question. I asked the right hon. Gentleman if he will encourage the building of private houses for letting and he has not answered that question. Will he encourage local authorities to encourage housing associations and other bodies to build houses for letting? It is quite impossible for him to get cities like Glasgow to accept outside businesses such as the Post Office Savings
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    Bank unless there is an adequate variety of housing. This is a very important matter. Will he use his influence to get a greater variety of house building in Scotland?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Member that I will use my authority and influence to encourage all forms of building in Scotland for letting and for sale, but when he refers to the business of building for letting he had better face facts. I see no great enthusiasm on the part of private and speculative builders to meet the real needs of Scotland in respect of building private houses for letting. I shall encourage the Housing Corporation.

    A.75 (Improvements)
    Mr. Brewisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what major improvements he proposes to make to the A.75 trunk road between Dumfries and stranraerduring1965–66.
    Mr. Ross: I hope to authorise shortly an improvement scheme at Shennanton Corner, west of Newton Stewart, and in 1965–66 a new bridge and realignment of the carriageway at Ferry Bridge, Creetown. Meanwhile work is proceeding on the widening of the Fleet Bridge at Gatehouse of Fleet.
    Mr. Brewis: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but is not this road far below the trunk road standard? In view of the heavy traffic increase in the last few years, is not very much more needed to bring it up to standard?
    Mr. Ross: There is to be increased traffic on this road as a result of the decision of the former Minister of Transport to close the railways, but I am informed that the road is still adequate for the traffic which will come on to it, although certain improvements in various parts of the road are required. These will be dealt with.

    New Town Development Corporations
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many general managers of new town development corporations have been appointed

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    since 1946; how many were military men; how the posts were advertised; and what qualifications were required.
    Mr. Ross: These are matters for the corporations themselves. Their statutory reports laid before Parliament show that six individuals have served as general managers, one of these having served two corporations; and that three of the six had previously served in the Regular Army.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend with his distinguished military career behind him regard the development of a new town as essentially a military exercise? Can he tell me what are the qualifications required? Has he any powers to lay down qualifications? What are his powers in this regard?
    Mr. Ross: The staff are appointed by the corporation and I have to have faith and trust in the corporation, which I appoint, to pick the best men for these appointments.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is to be his policy with regard to appointments to new town development corporations.
    Mr. Ross: My policy will be to make the appointments which seem to me likely, individually and collectively, to serve the best interests of the new town concerned.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is that not a very vague Answer? Is my right hon. Friend aware that recent developments in Glenrothes in particular underline the very great importance of making sure when he is making these appointments that people are appointed with known ability, particularly business ability, because often they will be dealing with scrupulous and unscrupulous businessmen and it is important that they should understand the difference? If in addition to the appointments of my right hon. Friend to the development corporations they have the right to appoint the general managers, it becomes increasingly incumbent upon my right hon. Friend to see that he gets the right people for the right jobs on these corporations.
    Mr. Ross: I think it desirable to get the right people to do the job. I thought my first Answer was firm and
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    also adequate. If we get the right people, as I hone we shall, we have to trust them to do the job they have set out to do.
    Mr. Bence: In giving consideration to appointments to the new town boards, will my right hon. Friend keep in mind the desirability of having on the boards members who are resident in the designated area covered by the new towns?
    Mr. Ross: Yes, Sir.

    Licensed Premises (State Management)
    Mr. Hugh D. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received to discontinue state management of premises for the sale of liquor; and what replies he has sent.
    Mr. Ross: Since I took office one letter has been received on this subject. The reply said that this was not a part of the social field in which the Government were contemplating legislation.
    Mr. Brown: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, and in the absence of representations to get rid of the premises, may I ask if he will agree that this appears to be a profitable field for public ownership, apparently giving satisfaction to customers? In view of that, will he give sympathetic consideration to any representations to extend this field of public ownership?
    Mr. Ross: I shall give due consideration to any representations which I receive. There is no doubt that the state management premises are generally regarded as giving a good standard of service.

    Scottish Licensing Laws (Report)
    Mr. Hugh D. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he will take to implement the recommendations of the Guest Committee Report on Scottish Licensing Laws, Command Paper No. 2021.
    Mr. Ross: The Government are not at present contemplating any legislation on this subject.
    Mr. Brown: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that this is a very urgent problem in Glasgow? Is he aware that within

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    the next 10 years more than 200 displaced publicans will be seeking very few sites and that this is a most unhealthy position? In the light of this and of the recommendations of the Guest Committee Report, will he consider at least having discussions with the district valuer and the corporation to see whether some temporary measures can be introduced?
    Mr. Ross: I am prepared to look at anything which my hon. Friend suggests because I appreciate his social concern in this matter.
    Mr. Younger: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if he is considering the recommendations of the Guest Committee on the subject of local veto polls, as they are causing great confusion, expense arid worry to people in Scotland?
    Mr. Ross: We have had the recommendations made by the Guest Committee and are considering them all.

    North-East Scotland
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether publication of the Government's plan for north-east Scotland will be delayed by the establishment of the proposed new Scottish planning board.
    Mr. Ross: No, Sir.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: In that case, will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House what he meant by telling my hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Mr. Baker) that the preparation of a plan for northeast Scotland would be an early task of the proposed new Scottish planning board and telling my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) that the Government did not know when they would publish this and other plans?
    Mr. Ross: This is not a plan; this is a study. This is what happened with the late lamented Government's Central Scotland Plan. The Government started on a study and then they published it as a programme. We have said that these studies are continuing and out of the study will come the plan.
    Mr. G. Campbell: When will the new Scottish planning board be set up?
    Mr. Ross: In good time to deal with the problems of Scotland.

    Leasehold Reform
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he intends to introduce legislation on leasehold reform in Scotland during the present Parliament.
    Mr. Ross: I have nothing at present to add to the statement on this subject made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government on 8th December.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is exactly why I have tabled this Question, because his right hon. Friend said that the interests of Scotland would be borne in mind when he was framing legislation for England and Wales? That seemed to me to imply that the Secretary of State for Scotland had got some proposals in mind? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would tell us whether he has, perhaps, a study on this subject.
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Lady that I am not at present aware of any anxieties about this in Scotland. As she will be aware, we in Scotland pioneered legislation in this field. In 1954 we allotted five years for enfranchisement of long leases in Scotland. At that time we under-estimated the number of people affected. [HoN. MEMBERS: "We?"] I was a member of the Long Leases Committee, so I hope that hon. Members opposite will allow me to say "we". We discovered that there were far more people subject to leases in Scotland than anyone had imagined and we covered ourselves in respect of this. If we discover that we need legislation, we shall take the opportunity of legislation when it is going through the House.

    Polaris Base, Holy Loch
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the United States nuclear Polaris base in Holy Loch.
    Mr. Ross: I have received one letter.
    Mr. Marten: Was that letter from his Under-Secretary of State who has been campaigning against the Polaris Holy Loch base for many years? As it is now the Government's intention to be in favour of this base, would the hon. Lady

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    withdraw her original campaign? Could the Secretary of State persuade her to make a statement making her position quite clear?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have implicit confidence in the ability and integrity of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. The hon. Gentleman asked me if I had received any representations. I said that I had received one letter. It was from a resident at Sandbank. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I receive far more representations from Ayrshire about his activities in relation to Prestwick and Scottish aviation—in respect of S.A.S.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Has my right hon. Friend received any representation from the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) proposing that the Polaris base should be transferred from Holy Loch to Banbury?
    Mr. Ross: I have not.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that when I was at the Admiralty and we were setting up these bases at the Holy Loch we received very staunch and loyal support from the local Member, the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele), and considerable opposition from the hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart)? Is this really putting the right people into the right jobs?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we have had no complaints at all from Scotland. Indeed, we have had a compliment from Scotland for having in this particular case put the right person into the right job.

    Peatlands
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the recovery of peatlands and the possibility of increasing the cattle-carrying capacity of Scottish uplands and lowlands; and whether he will have the prospects surveyed with a view to a progressive programme of recovery being begun.
    Mr. Ross: Representations on these and other matters were recently made to me by the Scottish Peat and Land Development Association following a
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    conference it convened in Edinburgh last month. I hope to arrange a meeting with the Association at which these matters can be discussed.
    Mr. Woodburn: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that these experiments started in Scotland and have been continued with great success in Newfoundland, recovering thousands of acres of land for cultivation? Would not this be a very valuable way of resettling more people on the land in Scotland and making use of large areas at present thinly populated?
    Mr. Ross: Yes, indeed. My right hon. Friend will be aware that considerable work is still being done on this in Scotland. Indeed, we have had a very interesting and forthcoming report from the Highlands and Islands Advisory Panel in relation to land in the Highland area, part of which is covered by the Question.
    Mr. W. Baxter: Before my right hon. Friend proceeds further with this matter, would he make full investigation and inquiry into the very heavy amount of Government expenditure which was incurred by the experimental base in the Slamannan moors in Stirlingshire which was actually gifted away, I understand, to a firm by the previous Government, at considerable loss to the community and the Exchequer?

    New Hospitals, Glasgow
    Mr. McInnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many new hospitals have been built in Glasgow since 1920.
    Mr. Ross: Five new hospitals within the city boundary, and six others outside the city but designed to serve the people of Glasgow, have been built since 1920.
    Mr. McInnes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of the existing hospitals are well over 100 years old and, therefore, the number of new hospitals is most unsatisfactory? I certainly do not blame my right hon. Friend. Perhaps it is the failure of the party opposite. I hope that he will look at this.
    Mr. Ross: Yes, we have done more than look at it. Various schemes for the improvement of existing hospitals will be put in hand in the period up to 1968–69. There will be the construction of a new general hospital at Gartnavel, a new maternity hospital at Rutherglen, a new geriatric hospital on the site of the present Lightburn Hospital, and a substantial new dental hospital. We will start the extensive new development of the Glasgow Royal Infirmary and the Western Infirmary.
    Mr. Stodart: Is the Secretary of State aware of the pressure which was exerted by some of his hon. Friends to slow down the plans for new hospitals in Glasgow in favour of maintaining the present ones at Paisley, Motherwell and Ayr. Is it this pressure that has caused him to throw all the Scottish hospital boards into uncertainty by reviewing the whole programme again?
    Mr. Ross: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I met the heads of all the regional hospital boards in Edinburgh a fortnight ago. He has got the facts all wrong. as usual.

    New School, Govan
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the prospects of a new secondary high school for Govan.
    Mr. Ross: Glasgow Education Authority proposes to start this project as soon as it is ready, which is now expected to be early next summer.
    Mr. Rankin: I must be satisfied with at least one crumb of support. I am sorry that the commencing date is so late as next summer. I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement, but could he assure me that once the project is started it will be carried forward with the greatest possible speed?
    Mr. Ross: I can assure my hon. Friend that it could not be started any earlier, because at this stage we are in process of planning. I thank him for his measured thanks.

    Tourist Industry
    Mr. Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking to improve the tourist industry in Scotland.
    Mr. Ross: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave to the right hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. AnstrutherGray) on 14th December.
    Mr. Hutchison: Has the Secretary of State worked out what damage the fuel tax has done to hotel keepers and other traders in outlying parts of Scotland? What does he intend to do about it?
    Mr. Ross: If the rest of the residents of Scotland were as gloomy as the hon. Gentleman, we should have no chance of getting any tourists at all.
    Mr. Noble: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember how incredibly gloomy he was about Scotland in the last few years?
    Mr. Ross: And I have every reason, because the right hon. Gentleman sought to cure all our tourist difficulties by a Countryside Bill, and after reflection he tore the thing up realising that it was a non-starter.

PRICES AND INCOMES POLICY (JOINT STATEMENT)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. DUFFY: To ask the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what progress he has made in developing a policy for prices and incomes.
The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. George Brown): With permission, I will now answer Question No. 95.
As the House will be aware, I and my colleagues have been discussing this subject with representatives of the trade unions and of management since the day we came to power. I am glad to say that we have today reached agreement on the terms of a joint statement setting out the principles on which a prices and incomes policy should be developed and expressing the willingness of the organisations concerned to co-operate with the Government in the task of giving practical effect to the agreed intentions.
We shall be meeting together to sign the statement formally in a few hours

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time. I will make copies of the statement available in the Vote Office later this afternoon and will also circulate the text in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
I think that the House will feel with me that the sense of national purpose and the spirit of mutual confidence reflected in this agreement are most exciting. This is, of course, only the first step. But to have taken that is tremendous and we shall lose no time in entering into the next stage of discussions with trade union and management representatives.
Today's agreement provides the foundation on which a fair and an effective policy for prices and incomes can be developed and without which our economy cannot become strong.
Mr. Duffy: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will be received with the greatest possible pleasure in all quarters of the House? It represents a most significant advance within a free system of collective bargaining and may very well create a watershed in the history of industrial relations in the country. Will he, therefore, accept the warm congratulations of hon. Members on the part that he has played in drawing up this declaration of intent? Will he convey the same congratulations to both parties to the signing ceremony later this afternoon, to the representatives of the workpeople and management?
Mr. Brown: I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend, but let me say this about the latter part of his supplementary question. The representatives of the trade unions and of management are the men who ought to be congratulated. They are showing great courage because they are entering upon what must of necessity be uncharted seas. I shall have the greatest pleasure in conveying to them what my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Maudling: I think that there will be general acknowledgement of the fact that agreement between Government, management and unions on this matter has been generally sought for a long period and that progress on these lines is clearly desirable. In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has acknowledged that this is only the first step, and that practical implementation is of immense significance, could he say when
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he will be able to make a statement on the practical steps which are to follow?
Mr. Brown: Not yet, and the right hon. Gentleman who failed so signally in this field, if I may say so, must come out of the spirit of last night and now give us some active help in something which he knows is essential.
Mr. Grimond: Will the right hon. Gentleman say, first, whether this agreement is dependent upon any assumed rate of growth and, if so, what rate is assumed for the coming year? Secondly, can he say whether it establishes any criterion for salaries in the public service and, it so, what criterion that may be?
Mr. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman will have seen and read carefully a statement issued after the last meeting of the National Economic Development Council, in which we said that we were to produce a plan the details of which we hoped to have available in the spring, the full details of which we hoped to have available in the summer, and which will be predicated by a 4 per cent. rate of growth and focused on the year 1970.
As to the second point, I do not see any way in which one can have a policy which does not apply both in the public and the private sector.
Mr. John Hynd: In view of the fact that an incomes policy by definition is based on the acceptance of the fact that there was immense injustice created in the old free-for-all system, may we have an assurance that the incomes policy will take account of the fact that many of these injustices remain to be corrected until we get a fair start and that the policy will not, therefore, necessarily exclude some adjustments in earnings?
Mr. Brown: May we get it clear that this is a prices and incomes policy. I think that when my hon. Friend sees the terms of the statement he will see that we have this point much in mind.
Sir C. Osborne: Despite the unfortunate and unwarranted attack on my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), may I say to the right hon. Gentleman that on this side of the House we congratulate him on what he has achieved, because without an incomes and prices policy there is no

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hope for us. If the leaders of the trade unions and of the employers run into difficulty with their own people, will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to help them to get the people lower down to accept the policy?
Mr. Brown: I hope that the hon. Gentleman read the speech which I made on Sunday, which really meant that I was doing what I believe he thinks I ought to do.
Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: If, as the right hon. Gentleman said, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) did not succeed, will he say how much that was due to the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister telling some of their friends in the trade union movement that they did not want my right hon. Friend to succeed?
Mr. Brown: It was not at all true. But if the Front Bench opposite thought it was true, I must say, on the basis of the statement which was made last night, that they are paying it back with interest without regard to the effect on the currency of this country.
Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman seems to object to statements of fact. Would he recall the attitude that his party took to the National Incomes Commission and the immense damage done to an incomes policy by that attitude?
Mr. Brown: The only thing that I object to is selling Britain short in the interests of party politics.
Following is the Statement:

JOINT STATEMENT OF INTENT ON PRODUCTIVITY, PRICES AND INCOMES
The Objectives
The Government's economic objective is to achieve and maintain a rapid increase in output and real incomes combined with full employment. Their social objective is to ensure that the benefits of faster growth are distributed in a way that satisfies the claims of social need and justice. In this way general confidence will be created in the purpose of the national plan and individuals will be willing to make their utmost contribution towards its implementation.
2. Essential conditions for the achievement of these objectives are a strong currency and a healthy balance of payments.
The Economic Situation
3. The economic situation, while potentially strong, is at present extremely unsatisfactory.
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Drastic temporary measures have been taken to meet a situation in which the balance of payments was in serious deficit, with exports falling behind imports. But these measures can provide only a breathing space.
4. To achieve a more permanent solution, we must improve the balance of payments, encourage exports and sharpen our competitive ability. Our longer-term interests lie in reducing the barriers to international trade. We must take urgent and vigorous action to raise productivity throughout industry and commerce, to keep increases in total money incomes in line with increases in real national output and to maintain a stable general price level. Unless we do this we shall have a slower rate of growth and a lower level of employment.
5. We—Government, management and unions—are resolved to take the following action in our respective spheres of responsibility.
The Government
6. The Government will prepare and implement a general plan for economic development, in consultation with both sides of industry through the National Economic Development Council. This will provide for higher investment; for improving our industrial skills; for modernisation of industry; for balanced regional development; for higher exports; and for the largest possible sustained expansion of production and real incomes.
7. Much greater emphasis will be given to increasing productivity. The Government will encourage and develop policies, designed to promote technological advance in industry, and to get rid of restrictive practices and prevent the abuse of monopoly power, and so improve efficiency, cut out waste, and reduce excessive prices. More vigorous policies will be pursued designed to facilitate mobility of labour and generally to make more effective use of scarce manpower resources, and to give workers a greater sense of security in the face of economic change. The Government also intend to introduce essential social improvements such as a system of earnings-related benefits, in addition to the improvements in national insurance benefits already announced.
8. The Government will set up machinery to keep a continuous watch on the general movement of prices and of money incomes of all kinds and to carry out the other functions described in paragraph 10 below. They will also use their fiscal powers or other appropriate means to correct any excessive growth in aggregate profits as compared with the growth of total wages and salaries, after allowing for short-term fluctuations.
Management and Unions
9. We, the representatives of the Trades Union Congress, the Federation of British Industries, the British Employers' Confederation, the National Association of British Manufacturers, and the Association of British Chambers of Commerce accept that major objectives of national policy must be:

to ensure that British industry is dynamic and that its prices are competitive;

387

to raise productivity and efficiency so that real national output can increase, and to keep increases in wages, salaries and other forms of incomes in line with this increase;

to keep the general level of prices stable.

10. We therefore undertake, on behalf of our members:

to encourage and lead a sustained attack on the obstacles to efficiency, whether on the part of management or of workers, and to strive for the adoption of more rigorous standards of performance at all levels;

to co-operate with the Government in endeavouring, in the face of practical problems, to give effective shape to the machinery that the Government intend to establish for the following purposes:

(i) to keep under review the general movement of prices and of money incomes of all kinds;

On behalf of the Trades UnionCongress

On behalf of H.M. Government

On behalf of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce

(Signed) RICHARD WILLS CHARLES HEY

On behalf of the British Employers' Confederation

(Signed) COLLISON

(Signed) GEORGE BROWN

(Signed) MAURICE LAING

GEORGE WOODCOCK

JAMES CALLAGHAN

GEORGE POLLOCK

DOUGLAS JAY

On behalf of the Federation of British

RAY GUNTER

Industries

(Signed) PETER RUNGE

NORMAN KIPPING

On behalf of the National Association of British Manufacturers

(Signed) LESLIE JENKINS HAROLD GRAY

16th December, 1964.

BILL PRESENTED

  CRIMINAL JUSTICE
  Bill to make as regards England and Wales further provision for the continuation of criminal trials notwithstanding the death or discharge of a juror, presented by Mr. John Wells; supported by Sir Godfrey Nicholson, Mr. Ian Percival, Mr. A. J. Irvine, Mr. Daniel Awdry and Mr. Emlyn Hooson; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 29th January, and to be printed. [Bill 54.]
  (ii) to examine particular cases in order to advise whether or not the behaviour of prices or of wages, salaries or other money incomes is in the national interest as defined by the Government after consultation with management and unions.
  11. We stress that close attention must be paid to easing the difficulties of those affected by changed circumstances in their employment. We therefore support, in principle, the Government's proposals for earnings-related benefits and will examine sympathetically proposals for severance payments.
  12. We—Government, management and unions—are confident that by co-operating in a spirit of mutual confidence to give effect to the principles and policies described above, we and those whom we represent will be able to achieve a faster growth of real incomes and generally to promote the economic and social well-being of the country.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
  Ordered,
  That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Ifor Davies.]

  SERVICE DISABILITY PENSIONS
  3.37 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make further provision for rehearing of applications for service disability pensions; for amending the law in connection with onus of proof and limitation of time in relation to service disabilty pensions and for matters in connection therewith.
  I seek leave to introduce a very modest and, I believe, uncontroversial Measure to help a very limited class of disabled soldiers in their applications to remedy grievances. I apprehend that the House will be anxious to proceed to the important Orders of the Day, and I shall, therefore, try to be brief.
  The proposals in my Bill would apply primarily to many sorts of chronic disease. The case that I have in mind—and I am not trying to be controversial, or to rake over old fires—classically exemplifies the problem, and I propose to try to recapitulate it. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House will realise that for some years we have in all these cases worked under the difficulty that when one applies to the Minister of Pensions about a case before it has gone to the tribunal, it is premature that when one applies pending the tribunal it is sub judice; and that when one applies after the tribunal it is functus officio.
  Without wishing to say anything controversial, I do not think that state of affairs applied under the late George Buchanan, and I am by no means sure that this attitude will be applied strictly now. In fact, I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends will look at these matters.
  This is what one might call the pensions "Catch 22". The case I have in mind is of a man of exemplary character and record and clean mental health, who had two healthy children. He joined the Armed Forces and served throughout arduous campaigns. He had to go into hospital twice in the Middle East with an infection which resulted in meningitis and some symptoms of encephalitis, normally accepted as a regular chain of causation in cases of schizophrenia.
  The man returned to duty and served with the "Desert Rats" along the soft under-belly or spine of Italy and com-
  390
  pleted the campaign, taking part in the celebrations in the Cathedral at Padua—"Now thank we all our God". He then came back to attend memorial services, to talk about remembering and not forgetting and began to undergo perhaps the worst of the tortures that can afflict one,
  "… with passing years the more inclined
  To growing fears of being confined
  Within the prison of the mind …"
  People are reluctant to apply for pensions where mental health is concerned and it was not until 1955, when it was impossible for him to work, that, with the help of a welfare organisation, application was made to the medical appeal tribunal.
  I say on my responsibility, looking at those papers now, that one could not put a stronger case. It was then that this man came up against Catch 22. It was more than seven years after the war and the tribunal said that the onus of proof had shifted to the applicant and that he could not discharge it because nobody knew what caused the disability. Nobody can establish a definite cause. No one can pinpoint it, and this applies to a great variety of cases of disease which I will not enumerate now. They are all familiar to many hon. Members.
  The case came to me and I took it up with the Ministry of Pensions and I obtained new and even stronger medical certificates. I put the case to the Ministry and the then Minister declined to interfere. I raised the matter on the Adjournment in November, 1962, and the then Parliamentary Secretary said that the Ministry was always happy to look at a case again and that if I could give more evidence about the facts—the facts related to hospitals in the Middle East and had disappeared something might be done. So Catch 22 had been slightly weakened without anyone saying where the power to reconsider the case arose.
  The man lost his unemployment benefit. We went to the Commissioner and we lost that case. We went to the High Court, a somewhat difficult and expensive proceeding, and there the solicitor to the Ministry of Pensions gave us every possible help. The application was not opposed and so it came back again with an order for a new tribunal. That, I understand, is the only way one can get a new tribunal.

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  Then there was a new Minister who enjoyed the respect of all parties in the House, the right hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood). In the end the man was awarded a 90 per cent. pension, subsequently increased to 100 per cent. and dated back nine years, and I had from the then Minister the most generously and courteously worded offer of medical assistance. I had to say that as far as any useful medical assistance was concerned I was advised that it was too late. Nine years had gone by since the application and 20 years since the inception of the disease, so we finished there. That is the case as I put it to the House now.
  In medical science, when we are apt to say "This is probably hereditary" this means that we have not found the cause. We have found no definite evidence of trauma. We have isolated no virus, but the very word "hereditary" in this sense includes gene mutation, malformation in pregnancy, early environment, and so on. The Ministry of Pensions seems to take the view that these diseases are transmitted by the one classical simple case of direct inheritance, as in the right to legislative power which is transmitted from cerebellum to cerebellum in the case of the peerage.
  It is not as simple as that and I recall to the House that many of these applications have no seperate medical assistance of their own. The Bill which I seek to introduce therefore contains two simple and I think uncontroversial Clauses. The first is to provide that the virtual limitation of seven years shall be applied only on a certificate from the hearing tribunal that the circumstances are of such a special nature as would warrant the application of the limit.
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  The second is to provide that where new evidence is available there is the possibility of a rehearing before a new tribunal without going to the High Court once the Minister or a person designated for that purpose has been satisfied that till circumstances warrants such a rehearing.
  I have humbly tried to cover the ground and I close with some lines of Rupert Brooke:
  "Naught broken save this body, lost but breath;
  Nothing to shake the laughing heart's long peace there
  But only agony, and that has ending;
  And the worst friend and enemy is but Death."
  None of us here I am sure feels that in this type of case justice has always been done to people who so richly deserve it. I implore my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to take modest steps to put it right.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Hale, Mr. Alldritt, Mr. Dunn, Mr. Manuel, Mr. Mapp, Mr. S. Silverman, Mr. Harold Walker, and Mr. Woof.

  SERVICE DISABILITY PENSIONS
  Bill to make further provision for rehearing of applications for service disability pensions; for amending the law in connection with onus of proof and limitation of time in relation to service disability pensions; and for matters in connection therewith, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 5th February, and to be printed. [Bill 55.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [2ND ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Dr. HORACE KING in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1964–65
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £60,723,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1965, for the services included in the following Supplementary Estimates, viz.:

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMETARY ESTIMATES, 1964–65

  £

  Class I, Vote 7, Inland Revenue

  1,486,000

  Class II, Vote 1, Foreign Service

  1,000

  Class II, Vote 1A, Diplomatic Service

  1,871,000

  Class II, Vote 4, Commonwealth Relations Office

  25,821,000

  Class II, Vote 5, Commonwealth Grants and Loans

  12,162,000

  Class II, Vote 7, Colonial Grants and Loans

  710,000

  Class IV, Vote 1, Board of Trade

  1,000

  Class V, Vote 4, Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland (Agricultural Grants and Subsidies)

  2,777,000

  Class V, Vote 8, Food (Strategic Reserves)

  65,000

  Class VI, Vote 14, National Health Service, etc. (Hospital Services, etc.), England and Wales

  8,000,000

  Class VI, Vote 15, National Health Service (Executive Councils' Services), England and Wales

  7,500,000

  Class VIII, Vote 7, National Gallery

  268,000

  Class IX, Vote 9, Houses of Parliament Buildings

  60,000

  Class X, Vote 4, Royal Mint

  1,000

  Total

  £60,723,000

  3.50 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Maxwell: Before we part with the winter Supplementary Estimates, I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that the Estimates Committee has had very little time, if any, to consider them. We are talking about £60 million. I regret very much that, by arrangement
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  between the two Front Benches, an opportunity is not being given to debate these Supplementary Estimates.
  Contrary to general belief, backbench Members of Parliament have no real opportunity to control Government expenditure. I am very concerned about the Foreign Office request in these Estimates, Class II, Vote 1A, Diplomatic Service, for £9·7 million, which arises out of the recommendations in the Plowden Report. I am extremely disturbed that the Foreign Office is not implementing speedily or energetically enough the recommendations of the Report relating to the need for our diplomatists at home and abroad to do a great deal more to promote British exports.
  There is a fiction abroad that Members of Parliament control the money spent by Government Departments. [Interruption.] I knew that some of this was wishful thinking, but I did not realise, until I came into the House—[Interruption.]—how much of a rubber-stamping organisation the House of Commons had become.
  The Chairman: Order. I hope that the Committee will give the Chair an opportunity to hear the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Maxwell: The House of Commons, in its function of controlling Government expenditure, has become something which is shockingly exemplified by the procedure for these Supplementary Estimates. Hon. Members will have noted in paragraph 2 of the Estimates Committee's memorandum—
  Mr. Thomas Steele: On a point of order, Dr. King. Is it in order for the hon. Member to read his speech?
  The Chairman: The custom of the House, as is well known, is that an hon. Member may not read a speech but he may make use of copious notes.
  Mr. Maxwell: I remember that on the last occasion he spoke my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) also read his speech.
  I do not know what can be done about all this. I know that a lot of new Members are as surprised and shocked as I am that Supplementary Estimates for an additional £60 million—I believe that they were for £20 million last year—can go

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  through on the nod. The winter Supplementary Estimate for the Foreign Office is an entirely new Vote. The gross provision required for the Vote to cover the last quarter of the current financial year is£9·7 million, of which £7·8 million is derived from payments from the Foreign Service Vote and the Commonwealth Relations Vote in respect of transferred services, and the remaining £1·9 million is primarily accounted for by increases in pay, allowances and administrative expenses. [Interruption.] This supplementary sum for the Foreign Office is required because of the setting up of the new unified diplomatic service which comes into effect on 1st January, 1965.
  Mr. Anthony Fell: On a point of order, Dr. King. There is such a noise coming from the other side that I cannot hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying.
  The Chairman: In raising this point of order, the hon. Gentleman should have pointed out that the noise was coming from both sides of the Committee.
  Mr. Fell: With respect, Dr. King, it is true, as you pointed out originally, that there was a bit of noise coming from this side, but since then there has been a lot of noise coming from the Government side, and I wondered whether you could use your influence to equalise, so to speak.
  The Chairman: Order. I have already asked both sides of the Committee to listen to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Maxwell: Thank you, Dr. King.
  It appears that the Foreign Office, while paying lip-service to the recommendation in the Plowden Report that economic and commercial work should be a first priority on its staff and resources, is doing very little, in effect, to implement the recommendations shown in paragraphs 233 to 255 relating to economic and commercial work.
  Yesterday, in a Written Answer, the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs told me that he had notified all heads of missions abroad of the need for them to give commercial work first priority. As we all know, exhortation will not help—
  Sir Rolf Dudley Williams: On a point of order, Dr. King. Would it be in order for me to put a question through you to the Patronage Secretary, as the right hon. Gentleman is looking at the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) in such a way that I wonder whether he will see him as well as the hon. Lady the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mrs. Anne Kerr)?
  The Chairman: Order. That may be very funny, but it is not a point of order.
  Mr. Maxwell: It is plain that the Foreign Office staff need reminding of their duties. [Interruption.] What is required at the Foreign Office is a complete change of attitude to trade, and a real transfer of first-class manpower and resources—
  The Chairman: Order. We have a very important debate ahead of us. I hope that the Committee will realise that disorder and noise only prolong the time taken by the present speaker and make it more difficult for us to get on.
  Mr. Eric Ogden: On a point of order, Dr. King. Could you inform the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) that there is a great deal of noise from both sides of the Committee and ask him to conduct himself accordingly?
  Mr. Maxwell: The Foreign Office ought to transfer some real resources of first-class manpower and money to commercial work and away from its political work. If hon. Members on both sides are impatient to gel on with the foreign affairs debate, as I am sure they are—I understand their impatience—may I remind them that foreign affairs are either about war or about trade, and that unless the Foreign Office makes a contribution to help us to achieve an increase of 10 per cent. in our exports we shall be wasting a great deal of our time in talking about foreign policies which we cannot implement.
  Last week, I put a Question on this issue to the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs and received a very dusty answer, which was strongly supported from the benches opposite. I did not so much mind the dust. What worries me considerably is the extraordinary complacency and smugness which the reply disclosed, and it occurred to me

  397
  that only by interfering with the regularity of procedure today could one hope to call attention to this most unsatisfactory situation.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury) rose—
  Mr. Maxwell: I have no desire, if I can possibly avoid it—
  The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman has not given way, so the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) must resume his seat
  Mr. Maxwell: I have no desire, it I can possibly avoid it, to hold up Government business, or to prevent the start of the foreign affairs debate which the Opposition want to initiate. However, as is well known in exporting circles at home and abroad, the Foreign Office and British diplomatists are not doing enough to promote British exports.
  Why do I use this procedure to bring the matter to the notice of hon. and right hon. Members? The reason is that there will not be another opportunity to do so until early in the spring, and I am anxious that the Foreign Office should realise the need to introduce in its Department a spirit of great urgency in these matters. We have had to borrow £1,500 million recently to avoid devaluing sterling; our share of world exports has been falling alarmingly over recent years; our foreign and defence policies can only be as strong as our economy and as the strength of sterling on which they hinge, and we can only survive as a world Power if we succeed rapidly in increasing our exports.
  As the Committee knows, the Foreign Office was built up when we were a military Power equal to any combination in the world and we had no difficulty whatsoever in earning our living as a country, and it is not surprising that its staff and thinking should prove so sluggish to a changeover to making trade more important than political report writing.
  Over recent years, however, as we laid down or retreated from our imperial responsibilities it has become ever more difficult for us to earn our living. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] Hon. Members opposite may not like this, but it
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  happens to be true. The long habit of buying British is dead in a great many countries. The long-protected Empire markets, guarded by preferences, are no longer controlled by us. Our once great Invisible earnings have now diminished to the vanishing point. An increase in exports—
  Sir Douglas Glover: On a point of order, Dr. King. Is this not a breach of the procedure of the House of Commons? The hon. Member is making a foreign affairs speech, but making it on these Estimates to avoid the chance of not being called in the foreign affairs debate.
  The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman must allow the Chair to decide what is in order. Nothing that the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) has so far said is out of order.
  Mr. Maxwell: Before I came into the House of Commons I was told that hon. Members, regardless of party, would do something to protect the opportunity of a private Member to have a say if he feels strongly about something. I am very surprised to see that this is not the case.
  An increase in exports can only be attained by giving exporters physical help and firm material incentives. The Department of Economic Affairs, the Board of Trade and the Treasury have woken up to the desperate need in this regard and are preparing firm and imaginative measures to bring about an urgently needed 10 per cent. increase in our exports.
  I should like to see the Foreign Office, and its staff at home and abroad, play its part in achieving this target by taking positive steps to use its considerable resources to help our export drive, to introduce the spirit of Dunkirk into its deliberations and efforts.
  The kind of steps that it might take immediately are as follows. First, it should recruit from industry, on two or three years' secondment, 35 first-rate senior men with considerable exporting experience and appoint them as trade commissioners to the embassies of the 35 countries which at present take about 80 per cent. of our total exports. These men should have detailed knowledge of that country to which they are appointed, including its language.

  399
  Secondly, it should appoint in each of these 35 countries a locally recruited, first-rate market research officer, who will be able to provide British firms with the kind of market information which is so indispensable to successful market penetration.
  Thirdly, it should stop the present bias in our embassies abroad of allocating the maximum and best space, furniture and equipment to the political side and giving to the commercial section what is left over. This bad administrative practice not only gives to our foreign customers a poor impression of British efficiency, but helps to give our commercial staff abroad a feeling of inferiority.
  Fourthly, it would cost very little and would be a great boost to our efforts if in these major export markets commercial staff could be given the right to use hired cars or their own cars to visit prospective customers. When using their own vehicles for this purpose they should be entitled to recover the expenses.
  The world does not owe us a living. It is up to our industrialists and businessmen, with the help of the Government, to grasp the many opportunities for earning our living by exporting the many goods and services where we are still competitive.
  I hope very much that the Government will give, during the debate that is to follow, a firm assurance that they will do all that is in their power to see that the Foregin Office implements ruthlessly and speedily as a matter of first priority those parts of the Plowden Report that relate to the role that the Foreign Office can and must play in achieving an important increase in our exports, in which case the moneys requested in this winter's Supplementary Estimate by the Foreign Office will be well and usefully spent.
  I am extremely sorry to have taken up so much time of the Committee, but had the Estimates Committee had the time and opportunity to examine the Supplementary Estimates we should not have had to bring these matters to the Floor of the House of Commons.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: I do not want to keep the Committee for more than about one minute, but I should like to say that some of us on this side
  400
  of the Committee, at any rate, admire the courage and temerity with which the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) has made his speech, following the example which was set in the late Parliament by some back bench Members on the Conservative side, in drawing attention to the need for the House of Commons to endeavour to scrutinise more thoroughly and in more detail the vast public expenditure covered by various Estimates. The hon. Member was quite right when he said that upwards of £60 million is no mean matter.
  I do not wish to say more than that, because the Committee wishes to embark on the important—indeed, vital—debate which is to follow, but I should like the Committee to notice that the hon. Member, who has spoken courageously as a private Member, has been received attentively by this side of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We have heard what he had to say. He was interrupted several times from the other side of the Committee by hon. Members who, it should be noted, addressed the hon. Member not as their hon. Friend, but as an hon. Gentleman. The Committee noticed, and no doubt the country will notice, what a band of brothers they are.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow;
  Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee.
  [Dr. HORACE KING in the Chair.]
  Resolved,
  That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1965, the sum of £60,723,000, be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom. —[Mr. MacDermot.]
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow;
  Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Mr. Ifor Davies.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  4.12 p.m.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Perhaps I may preface my remarks by saying that I hope that the Foreign Office w ill survive the onslaught of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell).
  This foreign affairs debate has been prefaced by a very important visit by the Prime Minister and his leading colleagues to Washington. The Prime Minister returned on Thursday last and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and myself made a request for a statement to be made. It would certainly have been easier to base a foreign affairs debate upon a fuller statement of what the Prime Minister has achieved. However, it has not been vouchsafed to us.
  I will, therefore, be opening the foreign affairs debate as I used to do in the old days, in the time of "Ernie" Bevin, in the 1945–51 Parliament. I shall, of course, concentrate chiefly in my opening remarks upon the interpretation we can or cannot put upon the Washington talks, with a view to eliciting from the Prime Minister what has been achieved, and getting from the Prime Minister a statement of what Government policy is.
  In the time of "Ernie" Bevin, foreign affairs debates consisted of what he used to describe as a tour d'horizon. This involved an enormous speech and a look at almost every country in the world. I remember him coming to me after one of his most noble efforts and saying, "I have got rid of this … brief; come and have a beer." It was in those moments that "Ernie" Bevin was most affectionately regarded by this side of the House. There is always the difficulty in foreign affairs debates of avoiding a tour d'horizon. I shall not be able to avoid it altogether, because there are parts of the world about which I wish to put questions to the Government. I think that it is absolutely essential.
  The Opposition deliberately did not indulge in foreign affairs questioning in the debate on the Address. This is the first occasion when we have been able to put foreign affairs points to the Government, including the whole question of the Washington talks and the deterrent. Therefore, I shall be putting such points in the assurance that Members on both sides of the House will
  402
  take advantage of the debate to air the questions of foreign policy, as well as the questions of defence, which naturally arise.
  We note that in general terms the Government are following the main lines of the foreign policy which we laid down, but we are anxious to hear what are the plans for a multilateral force, of whatever sort it may be, and what the Prime Minister proposes to do with the British nuclear deterrent. What we do or say during the rest of the debate will depend upon the Prime Minister's speech, and we shall decide our actions at the end of the debate entirely on what the Prime Minister says in the course of this afternoon.
  Meanwhile, we are patiently awaiting the return of the Foreign Secretary to the House. We must also point out the difficulty of making contact with his other Parliamentary colleagues, the Ministers of State responsible for disarmament and for United Nations affairs, who are not only not in the House but evidently are to be very seldom in this country, either. We do not regard their appointment as an improvement upon the arrangements which we had in our own Government, which, we believed, better served the interests of Parliament and the interests of the country. We therefore have to rely on the Prime Minister and the other Ministers of State to keep us informed on the vital issues of life and death which are involved in the conduct of foreign policy.
  In his Guildhall speech the Prime Minister said that he would ask the British people to make only one sacrifice, and that was the sacrifice of illusion. We trust that that is so. We have our own ideas about what illusions are, and some of them may come out in the debate this afternoon. There is one illusion which the Prime Minister has. I do not believe that he can save money, as he claims, on defence and yet have an Atlantic nuclear force, because I do not believe that that will be practical politics, or that it will work out in the long run. I think that he will be paying the piper and not calling the tune.
  What about our basic aims as the Opposition? Power and the balance of power between nations and alliances still plays the decisive part in world affairs. This is not the ideal condition, but it is

  403
  the condition which we must acknowledge as existing. The test which we on this side of the House apply to the new Government's policy can be summed up under three headings. First, will it keep Britain strong and ensure our national defence and security in a nuclear age? Secondly, will it enable us to make our full contribution to the strength and unity of the Western Alliance? Thirdly, does it uphold our many worldwide responsibilities for the maintenance of peace and security outside the N.A.T.O. area?
  I shall be dealing in my speech with the far-flung British responsibilities overseas outside the N.A.T.O. area—the age of Soviet-Chinese tension, the age of the Chinese development and explosion of her own bomb; and I shall ask questions about the position of India and India's defence. This, therefore, is not just a debate about N.A.T.O. It is a debate about our far-flung and widespread responsibilities.
  I come to the first issue, the effect of the Washington talks on Britain's position as a nuclear Power and our relationship with N.A.T.O. I should like to make it clear to the Prime Minister and his right hon. and hon. Friends that we on this side of the House welcome any reaffirmation which he may give us of close and friendly ties with the United States and with Canada. We welcome any report, as a result of his recent visit, which brings those ties closer together. We should also be glad to hear of any indication of the strengthening of the unity of N.A.T.O. and any plans for the revision or reaffirmation of the N.A.T.O. Alliance which are of a constructive character. I want to make it clear at the outset that the Opposition wish to take a constructive view of any constructive plans with which we can find ourselves in agreement.
  If decisions are to be taken—and we shall hear that from the Prime Minister's speech—it will be difficult or impossible to revise them later. Their results cannot be measured in a superficial way. Above all, I implore the Prime Minister not to try to settle everything in 100 days. These decisions may affect this country for 10, 20 or more years ahead. One of the great mistakes of the Government has been the mad rush to St. Helena which the Prime Minister is himself pur-
  404
  suing and in which, in 50 more days, he will be incarcerated.
  We want to be clear in the debate on the vital question whether the House is called upon to decide, in particular, on the position of Britain. What sacrifices is Britain called upon to make for the nuclear course which the Prime Minister is following? What does he propose to give away and what, if anything, does he hope to get in return as a result of his bargaining? The communiqué at the end of the Washington talks, which we have had vouchsafed to us in circulation, says, like all communiqués, practically nothing. It makes it clear that President Johnson and the Prime Minister have agreed to postpone action on all the major decisions until further discussions have taken place with the allies concerned. As we heard at Brighton in the Prime Minister's intemperate remarks about an alleged Press leak, there is evidently no secret pact between President Johnson and himself.
  It is wise to take time to make these decisions—and we do not grumble about that—but after the blaze of publicity in which the Prime Minister departed, with a whole caravan of correspondents, there is reflected in the Press and public opinion a considerable feeling of disenchantment and disillusionment, and we should like to hear from the Prime Minister what is the constructive achievement of the Washington visit. Nobody listening to the Prime Minister on 23rd November, shortly before he went to Washington, could doubt that he was highly critical of the original concept of a multilateral nuclear force. He has argued on several occasions in the past that it would encourage German nuclear ambitions and that it would, therefore, he unacceptable to the Soviet Union; that it would make disarmament more difficult; and that it would threaten the unity of the Western Alliance. That is a formidable indictment, and the Prime Minister knows that he has spoken on those lines.
  As early as 3rd July, 1963, the right hon. Gentleman referred to such an international force as "nonsense" and "nonsensical". As far as we can judge—and we hope to hear more—he is seeking to modify the idea of a multilateral force limited to mixed-man surface vessels so

  405
  as to reconcile different views and pressures inside and outside this country, inside and outside this House and inside arid outside his own party. As the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) wrote in Tribune:
  "Even in the two months' life of the present Government they have already made pronouncements, particularly on matters of foreign policy and defence, which indicate that they don't feel themselves bound by past decisions which the party made and which they personally supported."
  We should like to ask whether what has emerged from all this travail is the idea of an Atlantic nuclear force in which all British nuclear forces, both existing and planned, would be pooled under the common ownership and command of N.A.T.O. We should like to ask whether that is the plan and whether it will, in fact, be tinder the command of N.A.T.O., or whether there will be collaboration or other form of command, because we have heard so many different versions of what may happen. What will interest my hon. Friends most, I think, is the position of Britain in this matter, but before I come to that let me look for a few minutes at the position of our allies.
  The rôle attributed to Germany in any Mantic nuclear force is clearly a matter of exceptional importance. On this side of the House we fully accept German claims to equal rights and status in the N.A.T.O. Alliance. We are convinced that responsible German leaders sincerely mean to uphold the treaty obligations which the Federal German Government freely undertook not to develop its own nuclear arms. It must be admitted, nevertheless, that anxieties as to the possible course of events in future years are persistent and profound. The Prime Minister has himself spoken of the impossibility of giving Germany a finger on the nuclear trigger—and I need not quote him from the sources which I have here.
  We are entitled to ask the Prime Minister how he proposes to solve the problem of meeting the German demands for some further influence different from and presumably in excess of the part which they already play in N.A.T.O. In our debate on 23rd November my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition described the arrangements made within N.A.T.O. for the pooling of the forces—the arrangements made at Omaha and elsewhere. We should like to know what
  406
  extra influence the Prime Minister designates for Germany over and above that which already exists in N.A.T.O.
  At the same time, what proposal has he for preventing or forestalling national nuclear forces—a policy with which we are all in agreement? We also need much fuller information about the attitude of the Federal German Government towards a revised multilateral force and the views which they have expressed both in Bonn and in London. We understand that the Prime Minister is to go to Bonn in January, and we should value some Preliminary information before he goes. It appears from our own contacts that the Germans are still insistent on some form of surface vessel force. How far have they been weaned from these ideas and how are the ideas developing?
  So much for Germany. The position of France in this nuclear context is still also a major consideration. President de Gaulle and his Administration have threatened that a N.A.T.O. multilateral force in any shape or form is totally unacceptable to them. Of course, General de Gaulle has used similar threats before. But the fact remains that no future design for Europe can be imagined without France, or, for that matter, without Britain. We should, therefore, like to know from the Prime Minister and his colleagues what plans they have for discussions with the French Government on this subject and whether efforts have been made, or will be made, to overcome the objections of President de Gaulle and the French. We are fully aware—and the House must be aware—that instead of setting up a nuclear force which would fortify N.A.T.O. we might end by splitting the alliance wide open. That would be a disastrous result from all the permutations and combinations in which we as a nation appear to be engaged.
  I would ask, further, what are likely to be the relations with the Soviet Union. I understand that Mr. Gromyko is coming here, but not until March. Meanwhile, the new party leader, Mr. Brezhnev, speaking in Moscow on 3rd December, again reaffirmed the strongest Soviet opposition to a multilateral force in N.A.T.O., whatever its composition might be. He insisted that relations between Russia and the West would certainly be affected if the project were to mature.

  407
  On the strength of what he said in the past, and what we have heard from the other side of the Iron Curtain, does the Prime Minister now regard a multilateral or Atlantic nuclear force as a bar to reaching further agreement with the Russians? There is also the very important question of how the control of those forces will or will not operate in practice. Do the Government envisage the United Kingdom having a veto on the use of the nuclear weapon in addition to the present purely American control over the actual firing?
  What other form of joint control do the Government envisage by the participants in the force? There are so many varied reports about the nature of control that can or might be exercised that we should value a clear definition by the Government of what they have in mind.
  In a recent television broadcast Mr. McGeorge Bundy, the President's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, said that no proposal would be submitted to Congress without the very clear understanding that there would be no nuclear assault by the multilateral force without the permission of the President, and he added:
  "We are willing to consider the suggestion that this agreement should have in it a Clause which says somewhere, if and when Europe is fully unified and has a political authority that could take an enormous decision of this kind, that the arrangements proposed ought to be open to review."
  We should like to ask the Government, from the mouth of the Prime Minister, whether any such proposal was discussed in Washington, or whether any such proposal is in mind.
  In the New York Times of the day before yesterday there were a variety of other proposals for control, some of which say that the Americans should not come in, and others of which say that there should be a French general in control. All this leads to intense confusion about the nature of the control that may be exercised in the force. The Prime Minister must this afternoon clear up this matter, otherwise the credibility of the Western deterrent will be called into question.
  Those are some of the questions in the international field to which answers must be given.
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  I come now to the question of our own British security and the radically altered position which, as far as I can see, the Prime Minister has taken up in relation to our nuclear force. Having established that he accepts our nuclear armoury, we want to know what he intends to do with it. Since taking office the Prime Minister seems to have learned a lot about the vital character of our nuclear force. He seems to have surrendered the original idea, of which I have reference here on 16th January, 1964, of not accepting the purchase of the Polaris equipment from America. He seems to have gone back on his contemptuous words when he referred to our
  "so-called independent, so-called British, so-called deterrent."—[OFFicIAL REPORT, 16th January, 1964; Vol. 687, c. 437.]
  Having in the past devalued Britain's nuclear power the Government are now finding that our possession of these forces is the absolutely essential basis of their whole negotiating position. The Prime Minister is not only retaining the British nuclear deterrent, represented by the bombers, but he is apparently not going to consider cancelling the Polaris equipment. He owes it to our defence policy, while in office, that he has these nuclear assets which the Conservative Government rightly insisted on developing.
  Naturally, we on this side welcome this more realistic attitude and this change of mind, but there remains one fundamental question which must be answered. Having apparently accepted that we must have nuclear forces, thus involving the expense and responsibility, is he going to abandon our ultimate vital right of independent control of such forces? Do the Government expect Britain permanently to renounce all right of control over her own nuclear force in any new multilateral or mixed-manned experiment or arrangement? This would be, as the Washington correspondent of The Times said on 10th November:
  "An act of national abnegation, surely unprecedented,"—
  which he goes on to say—
  "appears to have begun."
  Our position on this side of the House has been made perfectly clear. We stand by paragraph 9 of the Nassau Agreement, where we explicitly reserve the right, which President Kennedy fully accepted, for Britain to withdraw our

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  forces for our own purposes in any supreme national crisis.
  We read in The Times today of the speech of the Foreign Secretary at N.A.T.O., in which he said that we should commit our nuclear forces irrevocably for the duration of the alliance, and we should like further explanations from the Prime Minister as to whether that is British policy. If it is, then the House of Commons should told about it, and not bodies outside the House itself.
  Nothing has occurred since the Nassau Agreement to diminish the crucial importance of the guarantees which we then obtained. In our present dangerous world it unhappily remains the fact that the independent control of our own nuclear deterrent provides the only ultimate defence against nuclear attack or blackmail, and if this power were to be surrendered, or if we forfeited our vital right of control, the threat both to our national security and to our influence would be very great. This is not only a question of our national defence. It is a case of the independence of our views in foreign policy.
  Before I leave this subject I should like to add this: if the Americans are to have the sole final veto, does not the pooling of British nuclear forces, which renounces all right of control, mean the transference of these forces from our control to that of the United States? Is it the intention, as some reports have suggested, that American electronic locks should be built into the British Polaris submarines contributed to a N.A.T.O. nuclear force? Do the Government accept this and all it means in relation to the future of any international, or nuclear, or N.A.T.O. force, such as the right hon. Gentleman may have in mind?
  I now come to Britain's far-reaching defence commitments beyond the limits of the N.A.T.O. area. The emergence of China as a nuclear power has given a much sharper edge to these complications, and poses new questions for the future. Will the Prime Minister tell us how he proposes, if he commits our V-bomber force irrevocably to an Atlantic nuclear Power, to meet the situation and its needs east of Suez? Do his plans provide for the possibility
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  of switching such British forces to the Middle East and Far Eastern areas where the threat to peace is increasing at a time when the immediate danger of war in Europe is less? I ask that because there is no doubt that any experience, in office or out of office, of the British position in the world would show that our real anxieties at the moment are east of Suez and not in Europe.
  Those are only some of the questions to which we expect an answer from the Prime Minister today. We agree with him that our first aim must be to prevent the proliferation and dissemination—
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): The right hon. Gentleman has used the phrase "east of Suez", and it has been used in the House before. Is he suggesting that the communications system for the Polaris submarines ordered by the previous Government would have enabled them to be deployed east of Suez?
  Mr. Butler: I should not like to give an answer which gave the impression that the technical capabilities of the Polaris submarines could be used in such a way. I think that that is a matter which will have to be decided in the future, but not on present experience.
  What I am asking is whether any of the bombers could be so used in the Middle East or Far East where they would, I think, be a very powerful addition to the British arm, and a very powerful addition to the cause of world peace.
  I have been into this question of the East as well as the N.A.T.O. area, and I come now to the question of non-dissemination and non-proliferation of nuclear arms. This is an objective with which we agree, and which, we trust, the Government will push ahead in the future. The communiqué from the Washington talks rightly stresses the urgency of
  "a world-wide effort to permit the non-dissemination and non-acquisition of nuclear weapons, and of continuing Western initiatives towards arms control and disarmament."
  The need for such initiative is more than ever present today. China's emergence as a nuclear Power must clearly have far reaching effects on the balance of forces in the Far East.
  Mr. William Warbey rose—
  Mr. Butler: I do not think that I had better give way again.
  Mr. Warbey: Why not?
  Mr. Butler: I will give way.
  Mr. Warbey: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in giving way. He has twice referred to China's emergence as a nuclear Power. At what date does the right hon. Gentleman expect China to become a nuclear Power in the sense in which the United States or the Soviet Union are nuclear Powers?
  Mr. Butler: I cannot be expected to give a final opinion on that to the House. If the Government could give us an opinion I should be very grateful, because they are in possession of more information on this subject than we are. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman himself will give us his own opinion.
  I want to ask the Prime Minister some questions about the position of India. The inducement to develop an Indian nuclear arms programme cannot be ignored, but that, of course, would defeat and destroy our whole object of trying to prevent nuclear dissemination, as well as imposing a crippling burden on India's own economy. There has been some talk of a Western or a United Nations' guarantee for India against a nuclear threat from China. Perhaps the Prime Minister could tell us whether he discussed this with President Johnson and whether there was any discussion of this with the Indian Prime Minister, Lal Bahadur Shastri, when he was here recently. If he can give us any further information about the defence of India we shall be extremely grateful.
  On the general subject of non-dissemination and disarmament, we hope to hear more from the Government. The Socialists' election manifesto spoke of a new break-through in the disarmament negotiations. Great expectations have been aroused, and we hope to hear more before long from the newly appointed Minister who is in charge of disarmament. But so far as we can see, the Government would do best to build on the initiative which I outlined at Geneva on 25th February this year. I will just summarise them as follows, because my right hon.
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  Friend will be speaking later in this debate, and he will be able to develop further our own plans for disarmament.
  It is perfectly clear that we should press ahead on the following lines: an agreement for further dissemination; an agreement for observation posts; a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty; the increased use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes; a freeze of strategic nuclear delivery vehicles; the early physical destruction of some armaments; and improved procedure for the disarmament conference; new proposals for verification; and, finally, proposals for international peace-making which were developed in a Private Member's Motion on Monday before last and which led to a very interesting debate in which constructive ideas were expressed on both sides of the House.
  The Prime Minister owes it to the House to tell us now, whether in the disarmament field, there is to be this breakthrough, or whether, as I believe, they will build patiently upon the initiatives that we have taken.
  I want, during my closing remarks, to have a glimpse of literally two minutes each at a variety of subjects in the field of foreign affairs. The first relates to Malaysia and Viet-Nam. I think that we can take it for certain that the whole House supports our efforts to stand up against and, if necessary, reply to and counter the Indonesian threat to Malaysia.
  On the question of Viet-Nam, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has arranged with President Johnson for any additional help by the British to the American effort to stop Communist subversion in South Viet-Nam and whether there is to be any strengthening of the Thompson mission, or any other method of improving the situation in Viet-Nam, because what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and I found when we talked to President Johnson and Mr. Rusk was that the Americans feel that there is something linked between their help for us in Malaysia and our help for them in South Viet-Nam. I should like to say, finally on this, that I hope that we have in no way entered into any commitment for extending the war into North Viet-Nam.

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  I come for the next two minutes to the Middle East. The Prime Minister agreed with me at Question Time that I could raise in this debate the question of Government policy in relation to the Middle East. We are opposed to the use of force, or the threat of force, anywhere in the world, and we are opposed to this particularly in the Middle East. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Housing and Local Government made a broadcast attacking the policies of Ernest Bevin in the Middle East, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister what is the official policy of the Government?
  I should like to ask him, in relation particularly to Israel, whether he endorses the statement made by the former Prime Minister, Mr. Harold Macmillan, on 14th May, 1963, in which he said, supporting President Kennedy's pledge on the Middle East:
  "We regard the United Nations as being primarily responsible for the maintenance of peace in the area. If any threat to peace arises we will consult immediately with the United Nations and will take whatever action we feel may be required."— [OFFICIAL REPORT. 14th May. 1963; Vol. 677, c. 142.]
  If the Government would endorse that statement, then I think that it would give great satisfaction to Israel and would be a stabilising factor in Middle East politics.
  The last thing I want to ask about the Middle East is whether the conference of the Yemen, which brought such hopes of an early settlement between Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Republic, is likely to come to anything, and, if so, whether there is any likely early withdrawal of the Egyptian forces.
  I want to ask one question about Cyprus. When I was at the Foreign Office, Cyprus was occupying our attention hourly and every day. Latterly, there has been a slight abatement of the urgency of the Cyprus problem, and we are all thankful for that. Is it true that an announcement will be made after the United Nations Assembly by Senor Galo Plazo, the mediator, and if so, have the Government any statement to make on that subject in relation to Cyprus policy? We would only say that we do not think that any true and final settlement of the Cyprus problem can be achieved unless we have regard to the needs of the minority in the island,
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  and believe that that must be borne in mind in any settlement that is made.
  We would further like to insist that the bases have never formed part of Senor Galo Plazo's mediation. We regard the existence of British bases as vital to our future in the island. If we can receive some assurance from the Government on that, we should imagine that a settlement of the Cyprus problem is on the right lines.
  On the subject of the Congo, all I have to say is this. The Minister of State has said, in dealing with the terrible situation in the Congo, that he will rely on the official Government forces for the possible rescue not only of British civilians, but also of others who are in need there. We must remember the needs of the Asians and the others involved, after the terrible slaughter that has gone on in the Congo.
  I raised at Question Time the question whether we could he helped by the Red Cross, by the Organisation of African unity, or by the Secretary-General of the United Nations. I was informed that there is a hope of keeping contact with the Organisation of African Unity. Besides the arrangements made with the Congolese official forces, I hope that the Government will keep closely in touch with those forces. They told me that a Beverley aircraft was standing by in case of need, and I trust that, in case of need, we may be able to intervene and save valuable lives, and especially the British subjects involved.
  I do not think that we have any complaint about the Minister of State's statement. I only hope that it will be followed up by the Government in the previous way and that they will keep us and the House informed.
  In closing, I would remind the House that while this debate has taken place largely round the question of a multilateral force we must always remember our own situation in Europe. We have every cause to complain that relations with the European countries have been rendered extremely difficult owing to Government action. As the correspondent of the Christian Science Monitor said on 24th February:
  "There appears to be a curiously insensitive attitude to the feelings of others, particularly if they happen to be foreigners."

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  This is a very serious matter in relation to the future of Europe, and I ask the Prime Minister, or the Minister of State, whether the Government will support the initiative taken by both Labour and Conservative Members at the Western European Assembly meeting in favour of early conversations about political union in Europe and the inclusion of Britain in such talks, which are absolutely vital to the future of Europe. Whether we discuss our Atlantic posture, or the Far East or the Middle East, or any other part of the world, we remain fundamentally Europeans, and it is absolutely vital for us to take the initiative in relation to political union if we get the chance.
  The House will be glad to hear that I have no more tours d'horizon to accomplish. I have touched as shortly as I could on a variety of foreign affairs subjects, but what I think this debate will turn on is our judgment of the Prime Minister's proposals—whether they preserve our own national security and integrity, and whether they further the alliance on which our joint security depends. We shall await his words in order to make a judgment upon what we consider to be his own interpretation of our national security, and decide our actions accordingly.
  4.52 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I think that the whole House will agree that the right hon. Gentleman put his very long series of questions and observations in a very agreeable and moderate way. If we were able to revive the very pleasant custom which existed in his relations with Ernest Bevin I would say that at the end of that speech he earned his beer, and I would be very glad to join him in it.
  He referred, not too roughly, to the fact that the Minister of State responsible for disarmament and the Minister of State responsible for United Nations affairs were in another place. He seemed to regard this as a little inconvenient. I think that the right hon. Gentleman was saying this to get the reply that he knows he will get. I am sure that he will not mind my saying that we, in Opposition, had to deal for three years with the fact that the Foreign Secretary himself was in another place, and not
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  just Ministers of State. In forming a Government it would have been quite easy to arrange for my right hon. Friend to be recommended to go to another place, but I thought that it would be an extremely offensive thing to do to the House, to say that we were going to keep the Foreign Secretary in the Lords. I hope that hon. Members opposite will be able to restrain their patience a little longer. They may expect to see my right hon. Friend fairly soon. If I had adopted the simple course advocated by hon. Members opposite, my right hon. Friend might have been in the Lords for as long as the Leader of the Opposition was there, which we thought was a monstrous treatment of Parliament.
  The right hon. Gentleman also referred—and this was extremely helpful—to the question of an initiative on disarmament, and to our plans for further progress there. We read in the election a statement by the Leader of the Opposition that they had some great new dynamic initiative in disarmament. It was a little disappointing to learn that the American Government did not know anything about it, and even more that the then Foreign Secretary, on his famous and, I am sure—for him—unusually communicative train journey, also had not heard of this particular initiative on disarmament. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will help us. We have been looking all over for it since he came to office. We have opened cupboards and desks, and turned up the carpets. If he can tell us where we are going to find this it will be extremely helpful.
  The right hon. Gentleman raised many questions about Washington. I hope to deal with them in my speech. He asked some important questions about Vietnam. I dealt with the first in answer to a Question yesterday. I can tell him quite clearly, in answer to his further question, that there has certainly been no commitment for extending the war into North Vietnam. I can give him a clear answer on that.
  I hope that I can deal with his question about the Middle East quite simply. We certainly endorse what the right hon. Gentleman the then Prime Minister said, some two or three years ago, in the quotation made by the right hon. Gentleman. Again, I can answer his question on

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  Cyprus quite simply. As far as we are concerned—and I think that this was the understanding of the previous Government—the bases are not in the terms of reference of the United Nations conciliator. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of British V-bombers and Polaris submarines. I hope to be quite clear about this, and I am hoping to deal with this subject in a way which will be acceptable to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Should they wish to pursue the matter further—and I have a feeling that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has his speech already prepared on this—I will have a further opportunity of talking, if I manage to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, at the end of this two-day debate.
  The former Foreign Secretary referred to my remarks at the Guildhall about sacrificing illusions and delusions. I hope that by the time we have finished the debate tomorrow night we will have dealt with some illusions and delusions on this subject.
  The House will agree that recent developments in world affairs require all of us to re-examine the lines of policy on which we and our allies have been working, to restate our objectives, to determine our priorities and chart the course which may well determine our policy for the next 10 years not only in Britain or in the Alliance, but in the world.
  I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that with decisions of this degree of importance there must be no question of rushing them. It is clear to everybody that the problems that we are facing today and are likely to face in the future, as compared with those of 15 years ago, or 10 or even five years ago, or, perhaps, even compared with a year ago, have changed in their nature, intensity and, not least of all, in their geographical location. There has been an evolution in Soviet thinking on war and co-existence, which we have debated in past debates. The Chinese have exploded a nuclear device. The United Nations has more than doubled in size as the Colonial empires have passed into history. We now have a situation in which Africa has more votes in the General Assembly than any other Continent.
  These are the basic facts that we are facing in the world. But there is more to it than that. Since none of the traditional
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  spoils of war that some people used to talk of are obtainable with nuclear weapons, it is legitimate to hope that the nuclear bomb may have eliminated the likelihood of war between nuclear Powers. This nuclear stalemate has already offered the possibilities of a more rational form of co-existence between East and West.
  Again, the political emancipation of Colonial Territories, while inevitable and desirable—and both parties have frequently contributed in an historic sense to this emancipation—has highlighted the fact that political freedom in their eyes is only a beginning, and, as I remember quoting in a little book that I wrote called "War on Want", 11 years ago:
  "Democracy is a word that rumbles meaninglessly in empty bellies."
  a factor which has a growing emphasis in many of these countries in their attitude to world problems.
  It is common ground that we need to take a fresh look at the world around us, question the basic assumptions on which we have been operating for so long, decide what are the problems and challenges of the second half of the 1960s and of the 1970s, formulate fresh policies when needed and start to re-deploy our resources so that we can meet them.
  In these two days I think it inevitable that a great deal of the emphasis will be on defence, but we have to relate our decisions in the field of defence to the broader objectives of our foreign policy and we have to relate both to the realities of the economic position which Britain faces and has, indeed, been facing for the past few years. I think that the objectives for which we are all working in world affairs are clear, and I do not believe there will be much controversy about them. We have to find means of strengthening our relations with our Allies and with our Commonwealth partners, reconciling the divisive trends that have recently developed. In doing this we have not only to avoid measures which lead to the spread of nuclear weapons, whether within or outside the Alliance; we must frame our policies in such a way as to provide copper-bottomed guarantees against such proliferation.
  In our policies within the Alliance and outside it we must do everything in our power to enable us to take advantage of

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  the opportunities which I believe now present themselves for reducing tension between East and West. In particular, we must be on the watch for any opportunities for a new breakthrough in disarmament whether in the broad field of comprehensive nuclear and conventional disarmament, on which—I think the right hon. Gentleman was making this point—so much patient effort has been expended, or in other directions where, perhaps, quicker results might be obtained.
  We must ensure that the most effective machinery is created for stopping small wars from escalating into big ones, for quarantining small outbreaks of militarism or subversion, and we must be prepared to bring new thinking to the strengthening of the United Nations peace-keeping machinery. Because of Britain's world role we have to examine and, wherever necessary, strengthen our own ability to contribute to this task, whether by our own contributions to peace keeping within the United Nations or by our own direct actions, again whether within the regional alliances or within the Commonwealth, because we have this capacity in a peace-keeping sense which exists simply because we are there. We have in addition to deal swiftly and effectively with the problem of providing some international safeguards to non-nuclear Powers against the danger which results from new nations developing nuclear power. Any approach to world affairs that does not recognise the problem created by the Chinese detonation of a nuclear device is unreal and already outdated.
  So much for the objectives, though I do not pretend for one moment that what I have said is exhaustive. We could all add very desirable objectives to what I have said. I said that we must look at this not only in relation to the field of foreign policy but also in relation to economic realities.
  Taking first our own expenditure in money and in resources on defence programmes, whether of manpower or equipment, the plain fact is that we have been trying to do too much. The result has been gravely to weaken our economic strength and independence without producing viable defences. Planned defence expenditure in the pres
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  ent year represents 7.1 per cent. of our gross national product. This is a higher figure than in any other major Western country, with the exception of the United States.
  There is built in to our defence system an unavoidable rate of increase—in the absence of changes of policy—which will mean, year by year, a crippling increase in the call on money and on resources. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence for the Army, the other day, gave some alarming figures, which I do not think will be disputed, about the immediate rise that is ahead of us in the cost of equipping various Army units. Here there is an inexorable law that in terms of military expenditure the rise in costs is rising far faster than any conceivable increase in the gross national product.
  As the House knows, the current year's Estimates amount to a fraction under £2,000 million for defence—a very small fraction indeed. Assuming the continuance of existing contracts and commitments, and assuming no change in policy, the Estimate for next year is bound to show a substantial increase, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows, and this figure is likely to rise to about £2,400 million five years from now, quite automatically, without any effective strengthening of our forces. I hope, therefore, that there is a general realisation now that reappraisal and retrenchment are necessary.
  Nor can we ignore the direct strain on overseas expenditure. Overseas Government expenditure has been running at about £500 million a year. Gross military expenditure overseas, including defence aid, accounts for about £350 million. When we compare these figures with an estimated deficit this year on current and capital account together of some £700 million to £800 million, as has been estimated, it is possible for the House to get these expenditures into perspective in relation to our balance of payments problem. I am sure that the former Chancellor was as well aware of this as anyone.
  Here I must draw attention to the special problem of our military expenditure balance on current account with Germany. Under the previous agreement which expired on 31st March last the Germans undertook to offset the cost of our troops in Germany to the amount of

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  £107 million over the two years, 1962–64. At that time the expenditure on our troops was running at about £70 million a year so that the net burden on the balance of payments was about £33 million spread over the two years. This year—I still have not been able to find out what happened following the negotiations of the right hon. Gentleman the former Chief Secretary, the foreign exchange costs of maintaining our troops in Germany will be about £85 million—that is the estimate—against which we can at present see no firm prospect of receiving more from Germany, by way of offset payments, than perhaps £25 million to £30 million. This means a gap falling or our balance of payments of something of the order of £55 million to £60 million—far more than under the previous agreement. I am certain the House will agree that this is an impossible situation. However, we hope to have further discussions and negotiations about it.
  The problem we are facing derives from the fact that alone in the world—apart from the United States and the U.S.S.R. —we are trying to maintain three rôles. There is the strategic nuclear rôle. There is our conventional role within N.A.T.O., our commitment to the defence of Europe, to which we are committed by interest and by treaty. And there is our world rôle, one which no one in this House or indeed in the country, will wish us to give up or call in question.
  Let me say right away, because I do not think that these facts are fully realised here or abroad, how great is the burden we are carrying not entirely on our own account, nor for our own interests alone. We have a major rôle in he Middle East, defending interests which are not exclusively ours, at a cost of about £125 million a year. We have numerous other contractual commitments in the Middle East and in Asia. We have to be ready at a moment's ,notice—I fully endorse what the right hon. Gentleman said about Malaysia—to respond to the needs of our Commonwealth partners, not least some of the newest self-governing countries within the Commonwealth. All of us have lively memories of the successful operations mounted in the early months of this year—to the efficiency of which I paid my tribute at the time—though every one of us realised how desperately the thin red line—and what a former Minister called the thin blue line—was stretched.
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  We should be abdicating from what I regard as our duty to the Commonwealth and to world peace and we should be abdicating from any hope of real influence in the world, if we were to think that this rôle could be abandoned. Indeed, in its fulfilment it may well be necessary, in certain respects to develop our strength, but in the way we do it and in the detailed control of expenditure, we have to apply imaginatively and ruthlessly the principles of cost-effectiveness and value for money.
  May I turn for a moment to the balance between these three rôles because I am going to argue that they have got seriously out of balance. It is a continuing problem. Yesterday's danger leads to commitments and expenditure programmes which inevitably are not reduced when today brings a fresh threat, and the combined effect of both makes us less able to react effectively to the challenges of tomorrow.
  I am going to leave on one side for the moment the whole question of Britain's nuclear rôle because that will be the centre of a good deal that I shall have to say later in my speech. We have to ask ourselves whether in our weapon programme—particularly some of the highly sophisticated weapons now in use, to say nothing of others on order—we are over-ensuring against a balance of dangers which is continually shifting, dangers, some of which may be receding.
  Ten years ago few would have questioned the need for a maximum buildup to provide security in Europe and to equip all our Services with the most sophisticated and expensive weapons for this purpose. Through our rôle in N.A.T.O. we had to be prepared to meet a major war on European soil. Neither the Labour Government under Lord Attlee and Ernest Bevin nor the Government which followed could have allowed themselves to take this threat lightly.
  But through a succession of more and more advanced aircraft and successive developments in missile techniques—whether home produced, as with Blue Streak, or imported from an ally—vie have added year by year to the cost per man in terms of money, in terms of resources and in terms of strain on scarce scientific and engineering resources. And we cannot say that this mounting cost has led to greater security.

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  However that may be argued, the relevant need of this kind of expenditure is thrown into doubt in a world where two major powers confront one another with an overwhelming destructive power through inter-continental missiles. It is thrown into question, too, by the fact —as is generally agreed and as I think the right hon. Gentleman emphasized—that the balance of danger is shifting away from the terrain of Europe to newer areas, and certainly areas where the weapons appropriate to Europe may not be the most effective; may indeed be tar too sophisticated for effective use.
  If we were thinking purely of our ability to contribute our full share to a major war in Europe the case for the most sophisticated modern aircraft is undeniable. If Soviet defences, for example, were to be penetrated, the high-flying bombers of only three or four years ago are a dangerous anachronism. The United States Defence Secretary, in his evidence to Congress last year, made it clear that even the fastest and most advanced bombers in the United States Strategic Air Command could no longer be regarded as the spearhead of the deterrent, their rôle being to follow when the missiles have done their deadly work.
  In certain areas of the world, therefore, perhaps it is right that while some weapons must become more sophisticated. we should recognise that in other areas military effectiveness depends on more, simpler and earlier, rather than on fewer, more complicated and later. In short, we need a radical reappraissal of our three rôles. In the light of this, we may need to look again at our weapons programme and see what weapons systems are really going to be needed, and what our mix of various kinds of weapons should be.
  The Government's conclusion from the first long, cool look at this whole problem is that, on the interpretation so far put on our three rôles, we cannot do all that so far has been thought ideally desirable without fatally weakening our economy and, correspondingly, weakening our real defences.
  I want to make it quite clear that whatever we may do in the field of cost effectiveness, value for money and a stringent review of expenditure, we cannot afford to relinquish our world rôle—our rôle which, for shorthand purposes, is some-
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  times called our "east of Suez" rôle, though this particular phrase, however convenient, lacks geographical accuracy.
  I was glad to see last week in Washington the full recognition the United States gave to our unique rôle as a world peacekeeping Power. They recognise, I know, the importance of the bases we provide in case of need, simply because, as I said, we are there. Our maritime tradition, our reputation, our mobility, despite inadequate equipment, above all our Commonwealth history and connections, mean that Britain can provide for the Alliances and for the world peace-keeping rôle a contribution which no other country, not excluding America, can provide.
  Because of our natural and inevitable preoccupation with the military problems of Europe, to which I shall shortly be coming, there are some defeatists in this country and some cynics abroad who have it all wrong; who say that Britain can never play a major rôle because, in terms of a continental army, we can never hope to compete, for example, with continental Powers and that in our contribution to the conventional forces of N.A.T.O. we must always be, in a sense, a second-class contributor. But none of our continental N.A.T.O. allies, nor any of our associates in the Middle East or Asian alliances, can compete with us in the range of the contribution we can make in those vast areas beyond Europe.
  Obviously our overseas rôle depends on having adequate bases both for our peacekeeping forces and as an essential link in communications with areas still further afield. In the debate on 17th June, speaking from the Dispatch Box opposite, I made it clear then that our peace-keeping rôle would mean
  "… bases where we can get them, not by force but by agreement …"
  But as I underlined,
  "In the long run, the security of a base depends on the willingness with which it is accepted by the local population."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th June, 1964; Vol. 696, c. 1404.]
  I expressed hope then that we have learned one lesson over the years—that a base held against the wishes of the local Government and the local population is a wasting asset.
  If we are to fulfil our overseas rôle—and this is the view which I expressed in the debate in June, and I repeat it now

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  —we need most, if not all, of the bases we now hold, but we need to be accepted in those bases. To assist in creating conditions in which this would be possible must be one of the major priorities in our overseas policy, and to do this we must satisfy local governments and the peoples of those areas that our presence is of advantage to them as well as to us. This is what I mean when I talk about the indivisibility of our Commonwealth, foreign and defence policies.
  We cannot maintain a world rôle on military strength alone. We must have acceptance, and acceptance of the British rôle depends on the image we present in our relations with foreign and Commonwealth countries. We have to show our Commonwealth partners that we are a loyal ally. This we are doing at heavy coat, and both parties have supported it. W have to show them, too, by our conduct in the broad issues of world affairs, that we are at one with them in the things that matter to them—in fighting oppression and racialism—and that our aims and interests are in harmony with theirs.
  While I am not striking a controversial note today, I maintain that the difficult decisions which we have had to take—for example, in relation to South Africa—have had a good deal of importance in the extent to which we could gain acceptability in the Commonwealth, and this of itself affects our own strength for maintaining this rôle.
  So when we argue about our right to a central place, whether in the Alliance, whither in the United Nations, whether in world affairs generally, about our influence, about our presence at the top table and all the rest of it, let us recognise that our rights depend on this worldwide rôle, that it is a distinctive rôle and that no one else can do it.
  This is something our allies recognise. I vas, as I said, tremendously impressed last week with the extent to which our American friends recognise this. I inform the right hon. Gentleman—and I am not seeking to raise any temperatures here today—that our American allies are not so impressed with our claims to be a world power or to have a seat at the top table if we base those claims on matching our nuclear policy with theirs. They are perfectly capable of doing the arithmetic of megatons. What does impress
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  them is our ability to mount peacekeeping operations that no one else can mount.
  If this argument is right, it must lead to a re-examination of the balance between the three rôles from which I began and also to a further look at our equipment programmes. Every programme which has not gone past the point of no return—and by "the point of no return" I mean that point in a production programme where it would be more costly to scrap it and replace it by a cheaper equivalent than to go on to the bitter end—must be examined both for its relevance to the kind of war we may be called upon to fight or to prevent and for its relevance to our economic situation.
  Defence is taking too big a share of our real resources in terms of foreign exchange, scarce types of manpower and load on the most advanced industries. To give some figures, it has been estimated that about 1½ million men out of a total labour force of about 24 million are required to man and equip the Services. That may not seem a very high proportion, but if one takes the proportion of skilled workers, it is very much higher. Defence uses one-fifth of all qualified scientists and technologists who are engaged on research and development, and defence accounts now for about 40 per cent. of all research and development expenditure.
  Every one of us realises, facing the kind of economic problems we have been facing, the need to redeploy some of this into the civil field—above all, into export industries. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor in a statement three weeks ago emphasised the importance of redeploying some of the skilled manpower now working on production programmes of this kind so that they can repair deficiencies in civil industries, particularly those that have a big contribution to make to exports. We are now engaged in that process.
  I cannot today anticipate the results of the review that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is making in consultation with his colleagues. But these programmes must be cut, and they must be made more relevant to our developing needs. It would be wrong and unrealistic to raise too many hopes for this coming

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  year, because the 1965–66 Estimate largely reflect decisions taken a year or sometimes many years before; they represent the cash flow of decisions already taken, and there are sometimes more costs in readjusting a programme than even continuing it unchecked, at any rate for a year or two. But we must get our expenditure down both in money and in real resources to a lower proportion of our G.N.P. than existing policies, unchanged, would involve.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I find myself in very large agreement with a great deal that the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I do not want to import controversy into this at all now. But the right hon. Gentleman is talking of the importance of our world rôle, and is inclined to say, I think, that the nuclear role is too large and the conventional rôle is too small, but I am sure he realises that the conventional role is much more expensive. We would like him to give the House the proportion of expenditure on the nuclear and on the conventional rôles.
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has raised an important point, but, if I may say so, he has put it more in global terms than in terms of the three rôles. I was indicating that within each of these rôles we have to get a very big shift in balance, relating our expenditure on particular weapons to the particular service we may be called on to fulfil. This is a problem much more within the conventional rôle than as between rôles. I would particularly round this off by saying, as I have said, that when we have done that the total must be smaller than it is at present.
  In this connection I would draw the attention of the House to the references in the Washingon communiqué to the possibility of joint production and joint research and development projects with the United States. The House will know that there are some orders that have been placed or to which we are committed by the previous Government because they felt that to buy a particular American plane would be cheaper in relation to its effectiveness than to develop that plane in this country with ourselves having to absorb the whole of the R and D costs.
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  That is why we had the discussions in Washington leading to the reference in the communiqué with a view to examining the possibility of manufacturing in this country under licence some of the aircraft we have been talking about, and the right hon. Gentleman was talking about buying from the United States. This would, of course, be satisfactory, providing more employment for our aircraft factories than if we were to buy the planes from abroad, but it does not solve the problem of our design teams in the aircraft factories who still have a job to do. They would not continue it, and that is why we have pressed for acceptance of the idea of joint R and D projects between Britain and the United States. I am sure that, in many respects, it will be agreed that the United States are very advanced in airframe design, but the House will agree that we still lead the world in the design of aero engines. Some joint research projects of this kind could be extremely beneficial, and could not only save us money but save the Americans money as well, because they have a problem which is not always recognised here but of which I heard a good deal when I was in Washington. Discussions are now going on both in regard to joint production and joint R and D.
  May I go on to say what all this means for the Alliance and for our overseas discussions. We have had the first round of talks in Washington. The next step will be discussions with our partners in N.A.T.O. The Ministerial Council is meeting in Paris this week and, as the House will know, I have accepted an invitation to visit Bonn early in the new year, and soon afterwards I hope to go to Paris and Rome.
  The House will expect me to report on the discussions in Washington. Here may I stress certain difficulties which I am sure the House will understand. Before our talks last week it would not have been possible for me to speak in any detail of our plans and relations to the problems we shall be discussing. No previous Government have ever done so, and I am bound to say, without getting too heated about it, that right hon. Gentlemen opposite did put us in some difficulties with their demands in the debate of 23rd November for more information than we could legitimately give. I have to admit frankly in relation

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  to that debate that even I have never said less in 47 minutes than I did on that occasion—and, frankly, I cannot say that I enjoyed the experience.
  Nor can I today give a full account of all that was said on both sides in those discussions. As both the President and I made clear, last week's meeting was the first in a series, not only between ourselves but between each of us and our allies; between both of us and our partners in the United Nations and the wider world community. I have referred to our plans for discussing with our N.A.T.O. partners; the House will be glad to know that, in the wider setting, Mr. Kosygin has acccepted my invitation to visit London for talks in the New Year. He is also anxious that I should visit Moscow, and the House will feel, I think, that with all that is going on it is desirable for more frequent meetings to take place between all of us in the Alliance, and more widely.
  Therefore, what I thought it would be useful to give the House this afternoon is as full a statement as possible of our own position, particularly with regard to the problems of the Alliance and our proposals for dealing with those problems. The House will understand that it would be wrong for me to set out in any detail the position of our partners in those talks—they were confidential—but I am aware that there has been a great deal of speculation and comment about the proposals that we were understood to be making, and I frankly accept the need for a definitive statement of our position to be made. The House will, I hope, bear with me while I state in some detail what our proposals are.
  Before doing so, I want to say a more general word about the discussions in Washington. The discussions ranged very wide and, in the time available, we covered the whole of world affairs from current problems before the United Nations—Article 19 and the rest—to the China bomb, disarmament initiatives, the position in South East Asia, as well as the problems of the Alliance.
  I should like to emphasise again, as I have done since my return, the positive and outward-looking nature of the discussions. We were completely agreed about objectives, and particularly about the need to prevent further proliferation of nuclear weapons; on new initiatives
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  for world-wide agreement to promote the non-dissemination and non-acquisition of nuclear weapons, and of continuing initiatives towards arms control and disarmament, particularly in the light of the recent Chinese explosion. It was against that background that we examined the problems of the Western Alliance and, in particular, the problems of the strains and stresses which have developed within the Alliance, and the urgent problem of increasing the share and concern of members of N.A.T.O. in the matter of strategic nuclear questions.
  As the House knows, for two years there has been almost continual discussion within N.A.T.O. about the problem of strategic nuclear weapons. The previous Government of the United Kingdom was committed under Clause 7 of the Nassau Agreement to the statement that
  "…the purpose of their two governments with respect to the provision of the Polaris missiles must be the development of a multilateral N.A.T.O. nuclear force in the closest consultation with other N.A.T.O. allies."
  There was no commitment to any particular form of multilateral force, but I think that it was clearly envisaged in the discussions following Nassau that any mixed-manned force would be, in one form or another, a naval force, and there has been widespread agreement that a mixed-manned submarine force is not feasible.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: There was no such assumption in any of the talks. In fact the word "multilateral" in that Agreement at that time subsumed the idea of a multi-national force at the same time, so there was no question of the Nassau Agreement giving, as it were, special priority to a mixed-manned naval force. This might help the right hon. Gentleman. It is just as well to get it right.
  The Prime Minister: Let me say straight away that certain of our proposals had involved discussions of a force which did not involve anything on the high seas. I am bound to say this and I think it important. I am not trying to say it in a controversial sense, but not every interpretation put on the Nassau Agreement —particularly in the heat and excitement of an election or the pre-election period—necessarily commended itself to some

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  of those who were parties to the Agreement. While it is certainly true that in the last few months the late Government in this country were putting forward constructive proposals in Europe for mixed-manning of a non-naval kind and were receiving some degree of acceptance in those discussions, I felt—and I have some reason for saying this—that in the discussions which immediately followed the Nassau Agreement there was an assumption that it would be in one form or another a naval force.
  There was at that time a lot of discussion about a mixed-manned submarine force. Now there has been widespread agreement that a mixed-manned submarine force is not feasible. Most of us would agree with the statement attributed to the naval aide to Herr von Hassel, the German Defence Minister—himself a former submarine commander—who said that he would rather swim. I think those are about the same views taken by our own defence Services represented by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. So for the greater part of the time, certainly on the American side—I agree there was no commitment at all by Her Majesty's Government on this—the proposal for a mixed-manned surface fleet held the field. This matter has been very fully debated in this House on a number of occasions. It is certainly the case that Her Majesty's former Government had given no final or binding commitment on a force of this kind.
  In the debate on 23rd November I repeated the widely held view that there were fissiparous tendencies in the then Administration with the then Minister of Defence and the then Foreign Secretary each prepared to go to the stake on this question—but separate stakes, not in agreement. But, having regard to the commitment made in Nassau and while the matter of joining the fleet was held over pending technical experiments in mixed-manning, it would be difficult to satisfy our allies that we were not committed to something on those lines, if technically feasible.
  On one thing I think there was complete agreement between right hon. Gentlemen opposite and ourselves when both of us stressed the totally unacceptable nature of any scheme in which, either at the outset or at a later date,
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  there was any question of the American veto on the use of the strategic weapon being withdrawn, or made subject to any system of majority voting. For any combination of N.A.T.O. allies by a majority vote to override either the United States or Britain would, I am sure both sides of the House will agree, involve proliferation which would be unacceptable. This has been our position all along.
  On 31st January, 1963, in the debate on Nassau, I stated in the clearest and most unequivocal terms our total opposition then and for all time to any new fingers on the nuclear trigger. It applies equally to all countries and it would be no less acceptable if the nuclear decision were in the hands not of one new Power but of a majority in some consortium, for a nuclear Power would have been created, and we are totally opposed to that proposition. The House is in no doubt that any such development would be regarded as highly provocative by those with whom we hope to negotiate with a view to easing East-West tension.
  I have previously told the House of the discussion which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I held in Moscow last June while, of course, we were still in Opposition. We said quite clearly to Mr. Khrushchev and Mr. Gromyko that while we were on general grounds opposed to the proposal we felt that it could not be said that it meant proliferation or the addition of any new fingers on the trigger—which the Russians feared—as long as the American veto remained absolute. Frankly, I have always thought that talk of removing this veto was totally unrealistic.
  What it would have envisaged is that the situation might arise that the President of the United States, with the great responsibility he bears, had decided in some crisis not to press the button which would bring the American strategic missile force into action, but his hand would be forced by a majority vote among the nations which had joined the multilateral force, with the result that those American missiles committed to N.A.T.O. would be fired while America still officially remained at peace, or was at any rate not engaged on her own account in a nuclear war.
  Though we may regard this as unrealistic, I believe that there has been

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  talk on the Continent of Europe suggesting that over a period of time this veto could be progressively relaxed and this horrible decision made the subject of a majority vote—be it by simple majority vote or some system of weighted qualified voting, it makes no matter. This is why I am glad to be able to draw the attention of the House to the sentence in the communique which says that:
  "They"—
  that is, the President and I—
  "agreed that the objective in this field is to co-operate in finding the arrangements which best meet the legitimate interests of all members of the Alliance, while maintaining existing safeguards on the use of nuclear weapons and preventing their further proliferation."
  Those words are of supreme importance. Although some of us would feel that any other solution was impossible, this is the first time that this has been clearly stated. This would apply whatever form of arrangement were adopted by agreement among N.A.T.O. allies.
  The right hon. Member mentioned the broadcast by Mr. McGeorge Bundy in which he referred to the possibility that some time in the long distant future there may be a new European grouping of political unity. I want to make quite plain as far as we are concerned that even if that were to happen we would still regard it as a proliferation. But in our discussions we were thinking only of exceptional circumstances where that unity was so absolute that the war-making power had passed to the European grouping from individual nations. I think we are a very long way off a situation in which that ultimate situation was reached in which the power of a nation would be surrendered to a group.
  Having dealt with the question of the American veto, I now turn to our own proposals. Our proposals were based on three objectives. First, we aimed at finding a solution which would foster the strength and unity of the Alliance as a whale by taking account of the position of those non-nuclear members who want to exercise greater influence on nuclear planning, policy and strategy. Second, we aimed at ensuring that, as far as possible, the nuclear forces committed to N.A.T.O. should be united under a single unified system forming an integral part
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  of the defence structure of the Alliance as a whole and covering, as far as possible, strategic and tactical nuclear weapons. The control system should be closely linked with N.A.T.O. It should allow for new participants—for example, France, if France does not join at the outset.
  Third, and I emphasise this, we want to promote increasing consultation within the Alliance on the policy of the Western Powers in regard to nuclear weapons in any part of the world. Although the present nuclear Powers are committed to consult the North Atlantic Council, if time permits, before they use nuclear weapons anywhere, there is no continuous consultation about deployment of nuclear weapons or situations which might require their use. We ourselves—and other European countries—have almost as great an interest in the use of the United States' strategic nuclear forces as in any nuclear forces that might in future be committed to N.A.T.O. Peace is indivisible; nuclear war is still more SO.
  We further propose the creation of an Atlantic nuclear force.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: When the right hon. Gentleman says "we", he means the Government?
  The Prime Minister: We, the Government. This would have the following components. First, the British V-bomber force except for those aircraft which are needed for existing commitments outside the N.A.T.O. area. Those are reserved. Second, the British fleet of Polaris submarines to which I referred in the debate on 23rd November. Third, at least an equal number of United States Polaris submarines. Fourth, some kind of mixed-manned and jointly owned element in which the existing non-nuclear Powers could take part, and, fifth, in the circumstances I have mentioned, any forces which France may decide to subscribe. I shall say a few words in a moment about our ideas about the mixed-manned element.
  The national element in the Atlantic nuclear force will be committed to that force for as long as the Alliance lasts. The force would be under a single authority in which all countries taking part would be entitled to be represented. The United States, the United Kingdom,

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  and France, if she took part, would have a veto over the use of all elements in the force and over any changes which might at any time be proposed in the control system—that is, Britain and the United States. Any other country participating would also have a veto if it wanted, though collectively they could, if they so desired, exercise their veto as a single group. In other words, European countries could either have a single veto or, if they wanted to do it on some group basis, that would be a matter for them.
  The authority governinig the force, acting entirely on instructions from Governments, would have these duties: to provide the force commander with political guidance; to approve the force commander's targeting and operational plans for the use of all weapons of the force; to take the decision to release nuclear weapons to the force commander; to develop agreed policy on the rôle of all types of strategic and tactical nuclear weapons; and, fifthly, to consult and discuss possible contingencies anywhere in the world which could give rise to the possibility of nuclear weapons being used. There would be co-ordination of targeting by the Atlantic nuclear force with the targeting of all United States forces in the Atlantic area.
  To ensure that the new arrangements could not result in, or be accused of leading to, dissemination of nuclear weapons, and in particular to ensure that they could not be represented as bringing any new fingers nearer to the nuclear trigger, the charter of the force should have clauses under which the nuclear members would undertake not to disseminate nuclear weapons, and the non-nuclear members would undertake not to acquire them or to acquire control over them. This would mean an undertaking—this goes beyond the Brussels Treaty—by all non-nuclear Powers not only that they will not manufacture nuclear weapons, but also that they will neither own nor control them. There should be a further prohibition of nuclear weapons passing into the control or ownership not only of individual nonnuclear countries but also any group of such countries which may be formed.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I have waited for the Prime Minister to come to the end of this part before rising to ask him one or two questions. It is terribly
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  difficult to follow this and get what he is saying right. He said, for instance, that there will be a single authority governing this force. Is he contemplating something different from the N.A.T.O. Council and the present N.A.T.O. authorities? That is one question I want to ask him. What about national contingents? We are to contribute a national contingent to this force, as I understand it. Will the Germans be able to contribute a national contingent in the same way and therefore have weapons to some extent under their operational control?
  The Prime Minister: First, on the question of the authority controlling the force, we feel that there are strong arguments for it not being the N.A.T.O. Council as such. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to think a little longer about this. He might take in his breath and think about what might happen if it were in the N.A.T.O. Council. We can certainly debate this. We have not an absolutely fixed view on it, may I say, and perhaps my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence tomorrow may go further into this matter, as the right hon. Gentleman has raised it. However, I think that there are arguments for keeping the actual control—the authority—something different from the N.A.T.O. Council.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Surely the whole purpose of this was to unify the N.A.T.O. Alliance and to assist it? This is something outside, which it seems to me as first glance might seriously split it. I cannot pursue this, but it seems to me to be a very strange announcement which the Prime Minister has made. However, I must not go further now, because I want to study it more closely.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, I think that the right hon. Gentleman should. I think that he may come round to this view. If not, we are certainly prepared to debate it with him. There are certain difficulties. It would be very closely linked to N.A.T.O., but the controlling authority need not itself be the N.A.T.O. Council. As I say, this is the view we have taken, but we are not absolute about it. We are prepared to listen to argument from our allies about it and are prepared to listen to argument from the right hon. Gentleman about it, but there are reasons for it.

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  Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman asked about the question of a German national contribution. He mentioned Germany. The same question would obviously apply to other European Powers. There would certainly be no German national nuclear contribution. It would merely be in the question of the mixed-manned element, which I want to come to in a moment.
  On the subject of the mixed-manned component, in which existing non-nuclear countries could be enabled to take part in manning and managing nuclear weapon systems, this again would have to be done in such a way as to avoid transgressing the principles of non-dissemination. There have been discussions in Europe—indeed, initiatives have been taken by the previous Government in this country—about a possible land-based component. We have made it clear for our part that we should not wish to contribute to a surface- ship component over and above our national contribution to the force, though we are prepared to continue discussions about a land-based component which right hon. Members opposite started. It is our view that the creation of a new strategic force of surface ships armed with Polaris missiles is the least desirable way of applying the mixed-manned principle. If the total Western missile strength were increased, I would further say that we would assume a corresponding reduction in total national missile strengths, so we arc not talking about adding to the West's total missile strength.
  I will not further weary the House with our suggestions about the form of the command structure, though my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, if he catches your eye, tomorrow, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, could deal with this question, and it rather sounded from the question asked by the right hon. Gentleman as though he would like my right hon. Friend to go into this in some greater detail.
  Her Majesty's Government believe that these proposals meet the requirements of the objectives I have outlined and will further meet the legitimate requirements of our N.A.T.O. allies in such a way as to provide an absolute guarantee against proliferation or dissemination, a guarantee against the transfer of nuclear striking power from nuclear to non-nuclear Powers, a guarantee against the acquisi-
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  tion by non-nuclear Powers of a nuclear potential in any shape or form, direct or indirect.
  They are not, and should not be regarded as being, provocative to any outside Power, nuclear or non-nuclear. On the contrary, we regard them as a powerful contribution to an effective series of world-wide agreements to promote, in the words of the communiqué, non-dissemination and non-acquisition of nuclear weapons and of continuing initiatives towards arms control and disarmament. They should also create conditions, we hope, in which all further proposals for the acquisition of nuclear power by any of our N.A.T.O. allies could be stilled and ended.
  I put forward this afternoon in some detail—and I apologise for wearying the House and for speaking at this length—the proposals which we put forward in the Washington discussions and which we shall be discussing with our allies. As will be clear from the communiqué, while we regard these proposals as the best way to meet the problems of the alliance and to prevent dissemination, our American friends feel that both these new proposals and existing proposals—that is, the proposals for the surface fleet—should be further discussed with our allies, to discover on what basis agreement could be reached.
  While this has been agreed, it would be wrong for me to suggest that the United States Administration have dropped the previous proposals for a mixed-manned surface fleet. At the same time, as far as we are concerned we have entirely reserved our position on whether such a fleet should be created and we have expressed our views on it, which I have just given. We have made no commitment whatsoever on this point; a fortiori, we have positively made no commitment whatsoever about any possible British contribution to such a fleet if it were to be created.
  To sum up, then, the whole emphasis of our talks and of our policy is on stopping the spread of nuclear weapons and providing the maximum consultations about the use of those which exist, in terms which have been made familiar in recent public discussions—indeed, I share a responsibility—to place an absolute ban on any more fingers on the

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  trigger: our eyes are directed to more fingers on the safety catch.
  We shall now pursue the discussions as we have agreed with our partners in N.A.T.O., but this will only be part of the continuing discussions aimed at wider initiatives on disarmament and arms control. My colleagues and I had useful discussions on this question in Washington with a view to further disarmament and arms control initiatives being taken. My right hon. and noble friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs who is responsible for disarmament and who was in Washington a week or two before us—I am sure that right hon. Gentlemen are just as interested in disarmament as they are in nuclear weapons—had very lengthy and detailed practical talks with the head of the United States Disarmament Agency. I hope that the House will not underrate the importance of the appointment of a Minister working full time on this problem, and working for so long and in such close harmony with our allies, in this case with the head of the United States Disarmament Agency.
  The recent Chinese nuclear explosion, much as we regret it, lends the greatest urgency to action to prevent any further spread of nuclear weapons. International agreements on this must be our first disarmament priority, because although I have spoken mainly about non-proliferation in Europe, if the Chinese explosion were to lead to other Asian countries, in self-defence, seeking to become nuclear Powers, if we were to get new nuclear Powers in Asia, we really would be beyond the point of no return in the matter of proliferation. This is why I stress at the outset the urgency of providing international safeguards to non nuclear Powers against nuclear threats and nuclear blackmail, and to do it collectively. This is one of the most important initiatives that we must now take.
  Next we must see, in the light of further scientific developments, whether the partial nuclear test ban treaty cannot soon be extended to underground tests. Another possibility for agreement lies in President Johnson's proposal for a freeze of strategic nuclear delivery vehicles. With this might perhaps be usefully com-
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  bined some destruction of existing bombers and missiles on either side and also—we feel strongly about this—we could seek to combine with President Johnson's proposal international agreement to regulate the trade in arms and particularly to ban the bloody traffic in secondhand arms. These are only the most outstanding of the many measures which we shall now pursue. We are equipping ourselves to take advantage of any opportunity for progress that may arise over the whole range of disarmament.
  In particular, we are taking steps to establish and maintain regular contact with outside experts in this field in this country, through seminars and other means of consultation, so that informed unofficial opinion can play its part in the making of a policy of disarmament. We also intend to set up a research unit in the Foreign Office to make comprehensive studies of the problems at issue and to keep in touch with those outside who have much to contribute both here and abroad. It is vitally important, if progress is to be made, that all the latest scientific information, whether from Governmental or non-Governmental sources, be available to the Government so that there is no danger, as has sometimes been alleged in the past, of policy lagging behind scientific advance, particularly in the seismic field.
  I apologise for having gone on for so long, but I have been trying to cover a lot of ground. There is one final matter which my right hon. Friends and I regard as of great importance, with which I should like to conclude my remarks. The House will recall that on 16th January this year in a debate which we, sitting opposite, initiated on defence I proposed to the then Government that there should be joint talks between the Government and the then Opposition on the nation's defences and on the security not only of Britain but of our allies. In so far as my hope was to put defence and the nation's security above politics, we did not make much progress, and both sides must perhaps bear their share of the responsibility for this—or, to be more realistic, shall I say that each of us will, no doubt, blame the other for it.
  I was challenged at the time to say whether this was a proposal that I

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  should feel right only as long as we were in Opposition and whether, if we came to Government, we would take the same view. I believe this proposal is intrinsically right and is in accord with the national interest. Oppositions as well as Governments have the right to their own conception of what is the appropriate policy for Britain, and should be free to express their views. I did not feel in Opposition, and I do not feel now, that such freedom would be in any way inhibited by talks of this kind. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite were until recently in full possession of all secret information available to the Government, and I see no reason why they should not continue to be taken fully into the Government's confidence on these matters.
  I would hope, therefore, that we can enter into discussions quite soon to discuss the possible guide lines for future defence talks of this kind. The Government will still have the responsibility and duty of deciding their own defence policy, and we shall do so. It would not mean that we were in any sense committed to the Opposition's ideas about policy. I hope that I have shown this afternoon that we are not. Equally, the Opposition would be just as free as they are today to criticise any policy which we put forward. But I believe there are certain issues of defence policy where there would be great good to the national interest if there were some pooling of information.
  Mr. J. Grimond: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to clear up one matter which he mentioned earlier? As I understand it, the components which we are providing for the Atlantic nuclear force will be irrevocable. I think the right hon. Gentleman said that a proportion of the V-bombers would not be contributed to that force. Could he say a little more about their rôle? Will it be a nuclear or a non-nuclear rôle?
  The Prime Minister: I said "irrevocable" as long as the Alliance lasts. As far as the others are concerned, I should like to put this against the context of what I was saying about the need for giving every type of guarantee to non-nuclear Powers in Asia. There should be international talks to see that any bombers for as long as their life lasts—
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  and this may not be very long—should be able to discharge an international rôle. In other words, we have got quite enough on our hands with the Atlantic nuclear alliance. We might then want to start talking about alliances outside the Atlantic area, but certainly, as I made clear, not all the V-bombers would be committed to N.A.T.O. The previous Government, who committed their bombers to N.A.T.O., reserved all the V-bombers that were required outside the European area.
  Mr. Bernard Braine rose—
  The Prime Minister: I am sorry, but I have gone on for too long. I am aware that I have gone on for a very long time.
  Mr. Grimond: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether they will be nuclear or non-nuclear?
  The Prime Minister: I have said all that could be said on this point this afternoon, for this reason. Previous Governments have never answered any questions about the rôle of bombers outside the N.A.T.O. area. I intend to follow the line that has been taken. I would, however, merely say that we have an obligation to see what we can do with any V-bombers outside the N.A.T.O. area, to see that they are available for international police work and international guarantees on the lines that I was suggesting earlier.
  Mr. Braine rose—
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is not with it. We had better leave him out of it. This is an important matter affecting the security of this country and of the Commonwealth. I do not wish to be drawn by the hon. Gentleman into saying more than I have said. If I thought it possible to do so I would, but I am not going to be drawn by him into saying more than I have already said.
  I express my apology for the length of my speech, but I believe that the issues that we are debating today are of transcendent importance. Our approach to these issues at a time of great fluidity in foreign affairs and in defence will, as I have said, govern the pattern of world affairs for a decade and perhaps more than a decade ahead. I think the House

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  will agree that we find the nature of these problems challenging, presenting all the nations of the world with an unrivalled opportunity to move in security to disarmament and peace. I do not believe that at any time since the war Britain has been presented by the conjuncture of world events with such a great opportunity to play her full part in this most important of all tasks. It is the firm intention of Her Majesty's Government, as I am sure it will be of the whole House, to see that we seize this opportunity and in so doing exercise an influence—an influence for good and an influence for peace greater even than at any time in our history.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King): Mr. Dennis Walters. [Interruption.] Order. I hope that hon. Gentlemen who are not leaving the Chamber will resume their seats. I have called an hon. Gentleman to speak. Mr. Dennis Walters.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Dennis Walters: In craving the customary indulgence of the House for a maiden speaker I am conscious that this occasion reminds me slightly of an experience which I had some nine years ago when I had to follow Sir Anthony Eden, as he then was, at an open air meeting on Wandsworth Common. The circumstances, as you can well imagine, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, were very different and the surroundings were very different, but there is a similarity in the massive departure of my audience.
  I am also conscious that my predecessor as Member for Westbury spent a long and devoted period in the House and, for the last three of his many years here, served the House with great distinction as Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means. I now have the honour to represent the constituency which he served so well and in which so many sides and aspects of British life are reflected, a constituency which is one of the most beautiful in England and which I am very proud to serve.
  Wiltshire people are outward-looking in their attitudes and feelings and I believe that they would approve of the fact that practically my first remarks in the House should be devoted to foreign
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  affairs. They are aware that the security and prosperity of Britain depends on the national situation and upon this being handled skilfully and wisely. One of the most valuable inheritances which the present Government have received from previous Conservative Administrations is their record of continuous and successful efforts to work for peace and for the reduction of world tension. People in this country have come to recognise that one has to work for peace continuously, that one needs patience and vision, and, moreover, one cannot buy peace by easy and lazy compromises. Britain, which has contributed so much to the world, must continue to assess and reassess how, given the changed and changing world power structure, her influence should best he used and most effectively exercised. In this connection, hoping that the House will bear with me, I should like to make three points.
  The first is with regard to our relations with France. Some people are somehow trying to pretend that France does not exist. Because they cannot agree with certain aspects of French policy they conceive of Europe or the world without major French influence. This is not possible, indeed, it is nonsense. In making our future arrangements with Europe it is essential to remember that, geographically, France is the heart-land of the Western European system. Neither in terms of defence, of trade and industry, of political organisation, nor of the international exchange of ideas can we make Europe work or establish our own relationship with Europe unless we can establish our relationship with France.
  No one would pretend that President de Gaulle is an easy man to deal with, no one worth dealing with is easy. But if Britain approaches President de Gaulle with an understanding of his character and sense of history we may find that we have more agreement on policy than we have yet realised, particularly in the resemblance between his idea of an "Europe des patries" and the British desire for a united but not a federal Europe. I hope that this point will be made in any negotiations on the political future of Europe which may take place, and which I hope will take place.
  My second point concerns the reduction of our forces in Germany. There are, of course, many valid reasons why one

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  should wish to cut down our strength there. Keeping 55,000 soldiers bottled up in Germany is a great waste of man- power in a world situation where, as the outlook look in Europe becomes more secure, the outlook in the Middle East and the Far East becomes visibly more hazardous and uncertain. At the same time, any considerable thinning out should be logically accompanied by a new demarche to the Soviet Union, and this does not seem an appropriate time for such an initiative. There is as yet inadequate information about the new Russian leadership, and, moreover, such action would tend to strengthen those elements in Germany which are unsympathetic to the Atlantic concept at a time when we are approaching the German elections. Any initiative of ours in this field must have the understanding and support of Germany.
  My third and last point is with regard to our immediate relations with Europe. I lope that the Government, and, in- deed, the Opposition, where they have the opportunity, will make the maximum and most effective use of our existing bridgeheads in Europe—E.F.T.A., W.E.U., the Council of Europe and the O.E.D.C.— in order to build up our relations and restore the confidence of Europe in Britain's intentions and sincerity in wanting the maximum co-operation at a time when such confidence has been badly shaken since the present Government came into power.
  In this respect I trust that the recent economic crisis may have been instructive to the Government for, as everyone knows, it was our European and American allies who came to our help and lent us the money necessary to tide us over the crisis. In my view, this should have brought home better than most academic arguments the fallacy of the theory of self-sufficiency in the 1960s. And it dramatised a fact which should never be forgotten, namely, that Britain is part of Europe and that Europe, in turn, can only fulfil its world rôle within the Atlantic partnership.
  6.7 p.m.
  Mir. Colin Jackson: This is my maiden speech and I understand that there is a tradition in the House that one should be non-controversial. Against that background I
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  should like to congratulate the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) on his opposition to the spread of nuclear weapons. It was certainly very pleasing to hear him, on this, entirely endorsing the Government's actions. I should also like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on strongly condemning the Conservative habit of having a Foreign Secretary in another place.
  I should like to carry on in this nonpartisan fashion, but I feel that one or two hon. Members might ask why, representing the constituency of Brighouse and Spenborough in the heart of Britain, I should be talking about foreign affairs. Perhaps I should make one or two short points in explanation.
  First, one of my most distinguished predecessors, the late Mr. John Edwards, was a man who was deeply respected in the House and who was passionately interested in world affairs and particularly in the link with Europe. Secondly, my immediate predecessor, although on the opposite side in political matters, was also a most hard-working constituency Member and a man interested in international relations. Thirdly, I should not like hon. Members to think that Brighouse and Spenborough is known only as the centre of most superb brass-band music without rival anywhere else in Britain. I should like them to recall also that we are deeply interested in the export trade and that prosperity and peace are vital therefore for the business which we have in hand.
  In the time available to me I shall refer to two aspects of international relations which have already been touched on today, first, the Arab world, and secondly, the possible future conduct of China. There has been a brief reference from both sides to the Arab world, and this, to my mind, indicates a weakness in foreign policy thinking in this country.
  It is extraordinary that the British people have for centuries had a deep interest in, and got on successfully, with, the people of India; we have played a remarkable and constructive rôle in the emergence of Africa, but something always seems to have gone wrong in the relations between the Arab world and Britain. We have not been the only nation to bungle our relationship. There was the famous, or infamous, remark of

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  a Western delegate at the United Nations, that he hoped that the Jews and the Arabs would settle their problems in a true Christian spirit.
  This kind of attitude does not really help. I recall what was said by the late Mr. John Foster Dulles after, to adopt the phrase of hon. Members opposite, the little local difficulty of Suez. Mr. Dulles said, after the evacuation of British and French forces, that there was a vacuum in the Middle East and that, unless the Americans filled it, the Russians would move in. At that time, I was in Syria, and I recall the Syrian Foreign Minister saying, rather plaintively, in conversation with me, "I am not a vacuum. I do not want to be filled up. I just want to be an Arab in the Arab world".
  It is most important for hon. Members on both sides to recognise the aspirations of the Arab people from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean. I believe that, basically, we in Britain do not want to run the Arab world, but we want to make sure that no one else does. If we can have a satisfactory union of the Arab States, this will be in our interests. It will be difficult. There are fissiparous tendencies among the Arab States. There is the natural desire of Egypt to dominate. But we should show a great deal more sympathy for the Arabs than we have hitherto.
  In one particular field, I hope that the Government will apply their mind to positive foreign policy endeavours. I am thinking of the Arabian Peninsula. We have a new Government in Riyadh. King Feisal is a more progressive and enlightened man than his predecessor, and I hope that the Government will take every opportunity to strengthen ties between ourselves and Saudi Arabia. At the same time, where we have direct responsibility in the Trucial Omanate States, in places like Sharjah and Dubai, we should very much accelerate our economic aid programme.
  I know, for instance, of the trade school in Sharjah. I know also of the medical teams in the Gulf. But this is only a little. We need to move this area up to a higher standard of living by economic aid so that, when, eventually, there is a wider Arabian federation, the Trucial Omanate States will be ready to come in on level terms. This will be a
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  greater guarantee for our oil revenues than any military forces.
  There has been reference to the Yemen. I hope that the negotiations, now in the early stages, between the Royalists and the Republicans will come to fruition. I hope that, if a coalition Government comes in the Yemen, Her Majesty's Government will move very swiftly to enter into diplomatic relations with it. If we have this improved relationship there, we shall probably go a long way to solve the South Arabian Federation problem. It is inevitable, in the long run, that Aden and the Sheikdoms will want to be linked more closely than they are now with the rest of the Arab world. They are Arabs. This one cannot deny and should not want to deny. We should try not to put ourselves in the dilemma of saying that, if they do join the Arabs, they leave us.
  It has always been a matter of pride in Britain that we are not sticklers for rigid logic. We try to see which way history is going and get in front of it. We have been something of a chameleon with principles, and I hope that we may have a compromise here, accepting Aden as part of the Arab world while, at the same time, according it the benefit, if not of full membership of the Commonwealth, of associate membership.
  In the present situation of the Arab world, I hope that Her Majesty's Government and hon. and right hon. Members opposite—this is a non-party point—will show more sympathy, not being exclusive in friendship. We have a great tradition in this country of having people who know the Arab world well. I hope that this sort of approach will spread through our political attitudes towards the Middle East.
  My second point has a much wider context, the rôle of China in future international relations. It seems to me that China, a country which I have visited, has two twin themes in her foreign policy today. First, there is the pursuit of the idea of the Middle Kingdom, the reclaiming of the territories which China lost at a time of weakness in the nineteenth century. Second, there is China's desire to lead in the Afro-Asian world.
  To my mind, the quarrel between Russia and China is irrevocable for the simple reason that, if China wishes to

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  achieve the frontiers of the Middle Kingdom, if she wishes to reclaim what she once possessed, the Russians will have to account for a very large percentage of the lost territories. There was the dispute last year over the KazakbstanSinkiang frontier. But I believe that the dispute between Russia and China goes deeper. There is also the Amur river basin and the trouble over the Vladivostok area.
  It is essentially not an ideological dispute, although one hears the verbiage about Left-wing dogmatists and Right-wing deviationists. In fact, it is a matter of history and geography, and the Chinese and the Russians are enmeshed in a problem from which there is no escape.
  Chinese ambitions in the Afro-Asian world are vitally important. Can China conduct her twin actions together? China, the nation with the lean and hungry look, the Cassius of the globe, is very active in Africa. She sends out radio broadcasts. She has her embassies. There are the great demonstrations in Peking, and so on. China is trying to say to the people of Africa, "You are black. We in China are yellow. The Indians are brown. Follow us, and take no notice of the Marie Antoinettes from Moscow to San Francisco". This country, through Her Majesty's Government, could give the lie to the Chinese claim that the world is bound to be divided according to race and colour.
  I sincerely hope that, in their formulation of future policies, the Government will not be obsessed by financial problems. It is not for me to say where those financial problems originated—I must not mention the Conservative Party in this context—but I believe that we should not be obsessed by the need to balance a budget. We should not try to keep our overseas aid to 1 per cent. but should try to go up to 2 per cent.
  The British rôle in world affairs is not based on securing nuclear submarines from America on hire-purchase terms. Our rôle is fundamentally a moral one. At our greatest, we have been able to command the loyalty and friendship of people of every colour and creed all over the world. We face the danger of a divided world, the rich North and the poor South. The people are looking to Britain for a lead, looking to
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  us in the Commonwealth to take the lead, and looking to us to prompt the Germans and the French to do more. The rôle which we could have, an honourable rôle, in leading the crusade to close the gap would be one which would give the Government a name in history of which they could be proud and which all of us in Britain would support.
  6.20 p.m.
  Sir George Sinclair: I am grateful, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to speak for the first time in a debate on foreign affairs. I must say that I was deeply impressed by the arguments forcefully deployed in the speeches of my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Mr. Walters) and the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr.Jackson). The last speaker has led smoothly to what I have to say, which will be about overseas aid.
  I should like, first, to say a few words about my predecessor, Sir Gordon Touche, who was the Deputy-Speaker. He was for 33 years a Member of this House, first for Reigate and then for Dorking. I have listened to hon. Members speaking of him with affection and respect and referring to the contribution which he made over many years to the smooth working of the House of Commons, especially in Committees. I know that he had, and still has, many friends on both sides and also among the permanent staff.
  In the Dorking division—and, indeed, over much of Surrey—there is a great personal good will towards Gordon Touche and his family. Much of it stems from the quiet way in which, regardless of political party, he helped many people with their personal problems. He will remain a permanent part of the Dorking scene. I vividly remember being introduced on one doorstep as "Sir Gordon Touche, who will succeed Sir Gordon Touche".
  I am fortunate to represent the Dorking constituency. It is one of the loveliest parts of green-belt Surrey. I know that you, Mr. Speaker, will agree with this assessment. How attractive it is in the summer, with cricket matches in full swing in every village—the hills and woods and, in between, the well-run farms. We hope that the Government's policy about the green belt—brought into question by a recent decision in Kent—will safeguard the beauty of the Dorking

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  countryside and villages. For they have become one of the favourite areas of recreation for Greater London.
  But we, too, have our problems. More houses are needed, especially for the young families who live there and who have come there to work. Some of the main roads can no longer cope with the traffic. The most important step required is an early decision to go ahead with the south orbital road which carries the east-west traffic.
  Here, I would make a special plea to the Ministers and local authorities that, when they are planning houses and roads, they should safeguard the amenities of the small towns, the villages and the countryside round Dorking. For these bring much delight to those who live there, to those who come as visitors and to those who just pass through. This they can do, if they will bring to bear on these two problems sufficient architectural skill and imagination.
  Mr. Speaker, I turn now to foreign affairs. In the early part of his speech today the Prime Minister spoke of his concern with the "war on want". Later, he spoke, also, of Britain's world role. Thus, he has recognised the need to bring overseas aid right into the middle of a foreign affairs debate. I believe that, in this first full-scale debate on foreign affairs under this Government, it is right to discuss overseas aid. It is one of Britain's main external responsibilities. Also, the Government have taken a new initiative in this field by setting up the new Ministry of Overseas Development to work in collaboration with other overseas Departments. What Britain can do to help developing countries is important, not only to them, but to the rest of the world—to our interdependent world—and to our own people, for we are being asked to put aside an increasing part of our national effort for this purpose.
  This House has, I know, fully accepted the urgent need of the poorer countries for help from the richer industrial countries. Because of her history, Britain has special responsibilities and special opportunities to help. This is not, I think, at issue between the parties. There is agreement that we should put
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  out the greatest effort that our economy can sustain to help the poorer countries to get on their way towards—to use the current phrase—self-sustaining growth.
  I should like, Mr. Speaker, to make two points only: first, on the rôle of the new Ministry of Overseas Development; and, secondly, on the rôle of British private enterprise. First, I welcome the creation of the new Ministry and I wish the new Minister well. I expect that the scope of her Ministry will soon be rather more clearly defined. But if, as I believe, it is to co-ordinate and stimulate all our own efforts to help developing countries, then it has a very heavy responsibility.
  Last year our Government aid was running at just under £150 million and our private investment was just over that figure. These are large sums, and the Government have pledged themselves to make a substantial increase. It is clearly our duty to our own people, who have generated this money, and to the poorer countries, which so desperately need our help, to ensure that this aid is as effective as possible. I am well aware of the disenchantment felt by many aid-giving countries over the results of their efforts. This is an additional reason for having a strong organisation here to deal with this subject.
  This means, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, the gathering of a strong and experienced team for this new Ministry—a team of people who will have, or will gain, firsthand experience of the problems of the developing countries and will be able to work closely with their Governments. At the centre, this new team will need to make a new and objective assessment of the impact of all our aid. It will need to co-ordinate requests for aid, to assess the capacities of the asking countries to make full use of the help they seek and to ensure that, once we make a grant or loan, we do everything in our power to ensure that it achieves its objective. In addition, the team will have to work closely with international organisations and other groups which are concerned with aid to the developing countries.
  The team based on London should, in my view, be supported by representatives of the Ministry posted to our high commissions and embassies in the main areas of our aid programmes. Such field staff

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  should help to ensure the closest understanding and collaboration with the receiving country, from the planning stage onwards. Just as important is that they should continually gather field experience of the use of our aid. This should help our Government to lay out their efforts to the best effect. I hope that the Government will give the new Minister all the support she will require if she is to succeed in building up a team full of vitality in Stag Place.
  Now, Mr. Speaker, I come to my second point, the role of private enterprise. As I have said, our private investment in the developing countries is running at just over £150 million a year. Our effort is, therefore, half public and half private. Britain has a mixed economy and the Prime Minister and the First Secretary have each, recently, stressed the importance of the private sector. I hope that the new Minister of Overseas Development will make it abundantly clear that she welcomes the great contribution which our private enterprise is making to helping the developing countries to get their economies on their way. I would ask her to go further, and to undertake to give all the assistance in her power to help the receiving countries to create conditions in which British private enterprise can work with them to strengthen their economies.
  Our private enterprise has much to offer. It finds its own capital, it brings its own managerial and technical "know-how" and its own equipment, and, above all, it helps on the spot to train local people at all levels. Moreover, it has an in-built incentive to avoid waste of time and effort. It has quickly adapted itself to the changing needs and aspirations of the host countries. I have had some experience of this during my overseas visits and have seen British private enterprise in these countries adjusting itself to the new views of the leaders of those countries. These are some of the reasons why many recipient countries, which are now developing fastest—for example, India, Pakistan, Nigeria and Malaysia—have gone out of their way to try to attract private enterprise from outside.
  I have some personal experience of the natural sensitivity of the developing countries where questions of economic
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  independence seem to be involved. I respect this feeling. But, already, the views of many countries are changing, as they grow more confident in their own independence and in their ability to work with overseas private enterprise. Indeed, some of them seem to find that private enterprise is a more resourceful, as well as an easier, partner than some foreign Governments which try to interfere in their internal affairs.
  The Minister may well find difficulty in the months ahead in securing increased funds for Government overseas aid. I hope that this may serve as an additional reason for making special efforts to encourage private investment.
  There is a long list of actions which could and, in my view, should be taken, now that there is one Minister coordinating all British efforts in this field. If I may, Mr. Speaker, I shall mention only four of them. Perhaps I can let the new Minister have my other suggestions privately.
  The first is to set up in this country, in partnership with the private sector, a review body to examine the possible fields for British private investment in the developing countries, and to equip our overseas posts to help these reviews by their work on the spot. The second is to strengthen our Commonwealth Development Corporation, to extend its successful rôle in going into partnership with British private enterprise. The third is to review the usefulness of the schemes which the United States, West Germany and Japan offer to their private sectors for insuring against political risks in overseas investments. The fourth is to work vigorously for the adoption of a bilateral or a multilateral investment code by developing countries seeking overseas capital.
  In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I wish the Minister good fortune—and I hope that this message will be conveyed to her —in securing the full-hearted support of other overseas Departments. On this, I believe, her success must depend. I hope that the Government will give her the strong team which her responsibilities call for.
  6.37 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Mahon: In rising to address the House for the first time, I would ask the indulgence

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  which the House always gives so generously to a Member making his maiden speech.
  I can claim, in all humility, that I am by no means inexperienced in public life. During the last 31 years, from the age of 24, I have served as a member of a local authority. Having during this period been a member and chairman of every important local government department, I am proud to express my profound belief in the efficacy of local government, and also my belief that, because of the integrity and dedication of its officials and members, it represents an establishment in our country which is the envy of the world. Any failure on the part of the Mother of Parliaments to recognise its great value to our country at any time in the future would represent a flagrant injustice to one of our great powers for good.
  I am, for many reasons, proud to be the Member of Parliament for Preston, South; proud, because any town is as great as its people enable it to be. Proud Preston is well named, because it is loved and well served by its townspeople, who, with their great love of country, their sterling character and their tremendous industrial endeavours, have nurtured down through the years the growth, development and traditions of an honourable Lancashire town.
  It is true to say, also, in the words of Shakespeare, that its people have "endured the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune". It was once said, with a great degree of truth, that Lancashire's thread was England's bread. The recession in the cotton industry and the consequent loss of the people's ancient skills and crafts, combined with the loss of permanent employment and earning capacity, added up to a serious setback to the industrial hopes and aspirations of great-hearted people. Happily, because of diversified employment, new industries and new skills, the people are once again recognising the meaning of the word "dignity".
  I have said that I am proud to represent the people of Preston, South in Parliament. I should be less proud had I not followed a worthy predecessor. Mr. Alan Green worked hard for the people of Preston, South, as a constituency Member, as a Minister at the Board of
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  Trade and as Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I am told that, in the interests of trade, he travelled 100,000 miles in one year. One would be churlish indeed not to refer to dedicated service. God willing, I hope to emulate this service, if not surpass it.
  As in local government, it must be recognised in our calls for world government that dignity for each human person, irrespective of class, creed or colour, is the only sure basis for maintaining the peace of the world. When America and Russia agreed upon a partial test ban, the world earned a victory. The victory belonged to all men of honest purpose. Nobody had conceded. Only insanity had lost. The nations of the world had voted for security.
  One day in the not too dim-and-distant future they may vote for love of one another. Together, the nations of the world must condemn the sin of genocide. Together, the nations of the world must see a kinder light. In the absence of this spirit of love and tolerance, millions of human beings will be annihilated. The ultimate aim must always be a disarmed world in which international disputes are settled through a universally respected United Nations.
  In this fearful world in which we live, even the most obdurate statesmen must come to realise that universal peace is the highest state to which we can aspire on earth. There will always be world poverty, fear, hatred and disease as long as the threat of war remains. The sum affixed to the United States stockpile business is annually more than 20 billion dollars and the defence bills of all the Western countries together, although rather less, are colossal. Collectivity is, I believe, the first step to both realistic defence and practical disarmament.
  Britain is one of five nuclear— nations with whom the responsibility rests most heavily to prevent other countries from possessing, testing and producing such weapons. It must always be realised that the possibility of effective disarmament slides further and further away as each new country procures a trigger. Effective disarmament slides further and further away as each country already in possession of nuclear weapons selfishly grapples to retain this highly expensive and dubious mastery.

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  With much comfort can an hon. Member, coming to such an important debate as this, read the words on the portals of this Chamber:
  "God be merciful unto us and bless us".
  With the advent of Christmas one could with feeling, and as being germane to the discussion, also say the words,
  '"Gloria in excelsis Deo'—Glory be to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will".
  Two decades have passed since man foisted on his fellow men the power of the atom. That man has not since Hiroshima and Nagasaki resorted to the we of these weapons is the world's greatest mercy and blessing. To continue worthy of these matchless blessings is our imminent struggle, and in the future will be our greatest achievement or our greatest catastrophe. This House, the Government, this debate, will help to decide.
  For two decades the Government of Britain have shared the burden of banishing from the world these weapons of self-destruction. By our ultimate decision we help to ban nuclear weapons or we help to amass them. With all the sincerity of which I am capable, I say that no nuclear strike at present possessed by Britain assures security to Britain. Our utmost contribution to the horror of global conflagration would be disproportionate—in comparison, a backyard thunderflash. The Nassau Agreement recognises that the security of the West is indivisible, and so must be our defence. I believe that we must plan and help man a genuine multilateral nuclear force within the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
  Nuclear defence, mercifully perhaps, is not enough. We must share the conventional burdens of N.A.T.O.'s strength. We must never be part of an alliance which retaliates to threats by brandishing nuclear arms or nothing at all.
  I am most grateful to my fellow hon. Members for the generous and sympathetic hearing which they have given me.
  6.47 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: It is unusual for an hon. Member to follow four maiden speakers, but that is my privilege this evening. The hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Peter Mahon) delivered a fine speech with great sincerity. He had obviously taken
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  a lot of trouble thinking out what he would say, and it gives me great pleasure to congratulate him on his maiden speech, which I am sure will be of considerable interest to his constituents. I notice that he did not refer to the Preston football team. I hope that they will have better luck this year. I am sure that the whole House looks forward to hearing him many times in the future.
  Other maiden speakers have been my hon. Friends the Members for Westbury (Mr. Walters) and Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) and the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Jackson). Their speeches were all delivered in expert style. Many of us who have been here for some time have noticed in this Parliament that the maiden speeches are quite the best we have heard since the end of the war. Perhaps hon. Members have had practice in fighting by-elections. The speeches are all delivered with great expertise. I am sure that the whole House congratulates all four maiden speakers.
  We had a very long speech by the Prime Minister. Had we been given a statement by him even as late as yesterday it would have been of great help to the House in today's debate. The subject was involved and complicated. I hesitate to say too much about his speech until I have had an opportunity to study it. It is unfortunate that at present the Minister of State has no support on the Front Bench from any of the Service Ministers. There is not even a Government Whip present. If the House is to debate these matters, he should be supported by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen from the Service Departments, because these are important matters. Surely the Ministers cannot be content with reading tomorrow's HANSARD. They ought to be here listening to what hon. Members say —hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  I felt some relief at what the Prime Minister said. Indeed, I was probably happier than many of his hon. Friends sitting below the Gangway, who looked rather miserable. The Prime Minister spoke of the percentage of the gross national product-7·1 per cent. — on defence being unduly high. I do not think that it is a very high bill for us to pay for our share in the defence of the world. It is 4 per cent. or 5 per cent.

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  less than the amount in the United States, and the level in other countries, such as France, is also rising.
  The Prime Minister said that we shall require bases. I would have been happier if he had said what bases he would like to acquire. He did not mention a specific base, and before the debate closes tomorrow I should like to know what bases will be retained, and what extra ones will be brought in if necessary.
  The Prime Minister also referred, very casually, to the possibility of United States aircraft being manufactured in Britain. Could it be confirmed that these are the Phantom aircraft which were considered during the summer by the previous Administration? I think that a figure of 175 has been mentioned. The aircraft industry is going through a period of grave anxiety. The hon. Member for Preston, South, has in his constituency English Electric and many other firms. A number of workers and executives are concerned about their jobs in the future, and we ought to be told a little more about this possible arrangement with the United States.
  The right hon. Gentleman also spoke about research and development projects. Until about eight years ago I spent most of my working life in the aircraft industry. Time and again I tried to come to an arrangement with the Americans whereby projects could be manufactured here as a quid pro quo for orders placed in the United States, but no progress has been made in that direction. It is most difficult to do any deal with the United States on sharing research and development. I hope that it will come about, because it will be a great help to the feelings in the Western Alliance if it does. The Americans are very jealous even of their civil airlines buying British products. They do everything to baulk it. They go out and bribe customers, and almost give aircraft away rather than see the British obtain orders. I should like to hear more about this before I can feel satisfied on that part of the discussions.
  The Prime Minister said that technical teams were at work on a weapons programme. I am sure that there can be no secret about this, because we shall read it in Aviation News in a week or
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  two so I think that it would be better if Ministers told the House what is in their minds.
  We were told that our V-bombers will play a rôle in Europe, and that a number of them will be retained for operations elsewhere. That was the best news of the debate. I have heard so many insults thrown at the V-bomber programme over the last three years by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that I felt that all they wanted to do was to put a match to them. They continually belittled them. Everybody has belittled them, except Soviet Russia. I have never heard her belittle the effectiveness of the V-bombers.
  Mr. Arthur Henderson: I have never said that.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that he has never said that. I am prepared to accept his statement. He is a previous Secretary of State for Air, and would know better.
  We are told that the V-bombers will have an effective rôle to play, and this is quite encouraging, but will they be used in their nuclear capacity or in a conventional rôle? A squadron of Victor bombers is now based in the Far East in Malaysia, and is undoubtedly playing an effective rôle in keeping down the ambitions of Indonesia towards Malaya.
  I should like to know whether those which are to be kept out there will be nuclear or not. It is fundamental to the matter that we are discussing to be told whether they will have a nuclear rôle. They may be used, for example, in the defence of India. We do not know. We hope not, but we must be told more about this. One cannot expect the information overnight, but there is a good deal more that the House should be told.
  The Prime Minister did not refer to the Royal Navy. He skirted round this, and did not refer to his speeches at Plymouth and Chatham during the General Election campaign when he talked about having a bigger Navy. He avoided that one this afternoon, and I think that the House would like to know whether the proposed order for the first aircraft carrier is to be proceeded with. If we have a rôle to play in the Far East, there is undoubtedly a great need for an aircraft carrier, expensive though it may be.

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  The Prime Minister said this afternoon that we live in a troubled world, that the emphasis is inclined to shift to different parts of the world each year. and that we need a reappraisal of where to concentrate the effort. In my view, the state of affairs in Borneo and Malaysia will be long and drawn out. I do not think that it will be a question of a few weeks, or a few months. We have to be prepared to continue to play our part there, as has been done up to now by the solders and their officers with great brilliance. In small numbers they have played an effective rôle, and a rôle which no other nation could have played in the same way. They have to be careful about not going over into enemy territory. They have to be careful not to be provocative, and, at the same time, they have to keep the peace. The British have played a magnificent role out there.
  I should like to see Australia and New Zealand, who have troops in Malaya, sending troops to Borneo where the actual fighting is taking place. This would provide great support for our men, and I know that Australians and New Zealanders would like to be given the opportunity to go in to help. Australia and New Zealand would be far happier if they felt that they were playing a more effective rôle in Borneo than they are doing at the moment.
  As this operation continues, we have to be prepared for the Indonesians becoming more proficient in using the equipment supplied to them. They have been given first-class aircraft and submarines, and when they become competent in handling this equipment they will be a force to be reckoned with. This could become a real danger area—an area where there may be nuclear blackmail because of Chinese progress in the nuclear field, and we have to be on guard against it.
  The situation in the Congo during the last few weeks has been disastrous. I was surprised, and indeed hurt, that there was no initiative from the United Nations to rescue the white people held there. Belgian paratroopers, in American aircraft which took off from a British base, went in to help, but there was no real initiative from the United Nations to sponsor something to bring about the rescue of these people. Much abuse has been thrown at the countries which took part
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  in this operation. Even Britain was abused for lending the base at Ascension Island.
  When there is trouble like this in the world, and hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of white people are involved, it is up to the United Nations to take the lead in bringing about a rescue, rather than leave it to individual nations to take the initiative and in the course of doing so aggravate the feelings of some countries.
  We still have bases in Cyprus, and I imagine that we shall stay there for the time being. Perhaps we can be told a little more about the situation in that country.
  The Prime Minister referred at length to the cost of maintaining British troops in Germany. It is certainly considerable, and the Germans just have not played fair in making their contribution towards paying for these forces. Neither have the Americans. Whenever the Germans have been prepared to order equipment from Britain as part of the payment to us, the Americans have stepped in and browbeaten them to order equipment in the United States. It is all very well to talk about sharing research and development with the Americans. The fact is that over matters like this Britain has been done down for years, and it is about time that we received orders from N.A.T.O. When did we last get a N.A.T.O. order for aircraft or weapons? I cannot remember one of any significance. We must consider first things first when looking at this overall problem.
  Do not let us forget—and the Prime Minister referred to this today—that in the early months of this year British troops based in Aden went into East Africa, at a few hours' notice, at the request of the leaders of the new countries and brought about peace there which has been sustained since. I would not like to say that this will not happen again. I hope that it will not, but it may well do so. The Chinese and Russians are pouring aid into Zanzibar, and the situation there is bound to fester and deteriorate as time goes on.
  What depresses me is that, after spending about £30 million to help Kenya along in her independence, we hear of highly responsible British journalists—in one case a man from the Sunday Telegraph—being expelled at 24 hours'

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  notice. This is not good enough when we have gone short to provide aid to countries and to leave things in an orderly state. It is not good enough to hear of British subjects being treated like this.
  I was disappointed by the lack of initiative on the part of Her Majesty's Government. The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs was not prepared to do anything about it. Surely, if British subjects are in trouble anywhere in the world, the nations creating the trouble will have far more respect if the Government take vigorous action, provided that it is fair and reasonable, in making their case. We made a much stronger case with Russia over an attache was expelled. To see British journalists of the Sunday Telegraph turned out of Kenya in the disgraceful way they were turned out does not help our cause at all, particularly when Britain is pouring millions of pounds of its resources into that country in the form of aid.
  I want to refer to China and India. This is a very serious problem which I think we shall have to face sooner or later. The Chinese have now got their first nuclear weapon. We are told that they have their first test weapon, and the second one may be very near. I had the privilege, before the war, of spending five years in China trying to teach the Chinese something about aviation. I am still very fond of them as a race. They are delightful people. I found them honest and straight, and do not underrate their intelligence and adaptability. Many people think them old-fashioned and not capable, but they are really very competent when they take on a project like the nuclear bomb.
  We were shown a year or two ago that India is in no position to defend herself. I should like to be satisfied that we are prepared, in conjunction with the United States and any others, to play our full rôle and not with just a few Britannia aircraft troop carriers and in other ways in defending that great country.
  Many things were said before and during the General Election which, when the heat has gone, cannot be carired through in the normal course of Government business. I detected that today in the Prime Minister's speech. It is the first time I have heard from him a more subdued
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  speech and a more responsible one than any of his previous utterances have been since the new Parliament came into being. Before the election, he was saying that there was no point in our doing much east of Suez [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] In so many words he was saying that if he had to send 1,000 men east of Suez they would have to come out of Germany. It is all in HANSARD if the hon. Gentleman is prepared to look it up. But there has been a shift of opinion and emphasis today.
  Mr. David Ennals: I wonder whether the hon. Member is aware that in a number of speeches recorded not only in this House, but elsewhere—I recall a speech on 3rd March which he delivered in the United States—the Prime Minister made a great point about the importance of the rôle of this country east of Suez in peace-keeping functions and in our Commonwealth functions.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: The Prime Minister has made a great many speeches, but they do not all tally with each other. That is the point I am making. If the hon. Gentleman does some research, he will find that I am correct in what I am saying—that there has now been a shift of emphasis in the Far East on the part of the Government. Personally, I am delighted to hear it.
  We have a rôle to play in the Far East which cannot be carried out by any other country. Looking at it from a selfish angle, we know that a great many British people work in South-East Asia and that a large amount of our overseas payments come from that part of the world in the form of rubber and tin. We have obligations to Malaysia. Of all the independent countries which have evolved since the war from the Colonial Empire, Malaya has impressed me the most in adapting the Westminster method. We have to stand by those people, come what may; and I am sure that we shall do so.
  In referring to the nuclear possibilities of China, we have to couple that with the French. We cannot ignore the French in this matter. President de Gaulle may be a difficult customer to deal with, but the French have a very high regard for him. He has "produced the goods". I was over there a short time ago and went to one of three technical universities where there were 3,000 students, all living

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  in, being taught radar, engineering and so on, and there are others to come. There must be a great deal of wealth in France to undertake projects of that size. Do not let us under-rate the French technically or in any other way.
  Whatever we do about nuclear weapons I cannot see President de Gaulle agreeing to give up his. I do not think anything would persuade him to do this. I wish that he would come into line, but he will not do so and neither will the Chinese. I say that before we give any real independence from this country we have to be very careful of the implications of what the French may have in three or four years' time, if we have not got it. I do not like seeing Britain pushed around by any nation—the French, the Chinese, or the Russians. I think that it is generally agreed in the House that, bad as nuclear weapons are, they have kept the peace for the last 20 years.
  As I understood the Prime Minister today, if the Polaris submarines are merged into a force—and I also understood him to say that the Americans would put an equal number into that force—I do not see how this can be of any saving to Britain. It will cost just as much if we keep them out of this authority which is just on the fringe of N A.T.O. I hope that we will be told a little more by the Government where the savings may come from. Before we can really consider these matters we must be told what the weapons programme is to be.
  It is now two months since the Government said that they wanted to get out of the Concord business. The trade unions have now taken over from their respective Governments and we are told that there is every likelihood of it going on. But these matters cannot drag on indefinitely. The Government must make an early statement on what weapons they are to keep and which they are to cancel.
  I do not take the view of most hon. Members opposite that the Polaris submarines, when completed, would not be independent. They will be independent provided that the Americans live up to their side of the contract during their construction. Once the vessels are launched and fitted with British warheads they will be independent.
  Mr. Ennals indicated dissent.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, I can quite see that they are not independent while they are being constructed because we are dependent on the Americans for some of the equipment. But, once they are constructed, they are independent, or, at least, I think they are.
  The right hon. Gentleman talked about the capacity of the Soviet Union and the United States in destruction. Of course, we have only a small percentage of the "kill", if we can use that word, in nuclear weapons, but the real thing is that both the United States and Russia have an enormous "over-kill". If one has to be killed by a bullet it is equally bad as being killed by a nuclear bomb.
  When we consider that the V-bomber nuclear destruction capacity today is the equivalent of all the explosives dropped by the R.A.F. right through the whole of the last war, much more—and the four Polaris submarines would have a capacity of about 2,500 Hiroshima bombs—we see that it is tremendous. Hon. Gentlemen talk about the small contribution of the British deterrent, but that is not so at all. It is a very effective contribution. Do not let anyone under-estimate what the British deterrent is really worth when one measures destruction. It is a horrible thought.
  I have no confidence in the M.L.F. whatever. It would be disastrous from many points of view. I cannot see it working. The mere idea of having 24 large ships of 6,000 to 10,000 tons, with 16 nuclear weapons on board, steaming on the ocean and being spotted and followed wherever they go, is ridiculous.
  I cannot think of anything which will aggravate the world situation more than a multilateral force. It would be very expensive, and a great drain on the manpower of the nations contributing to it, because men would have to be taken away from other ships in order to man them. These men would have to be very skilled, and the ships would be costly. It would aggravate our relations with the Russians, which have been improving in the last year or two. Even with the new leaders of Soviet Russia the situation has not deteriorated.
  The Prime Minister spoke about his discussions with Mr. Khrushchev this summer. But he is not dealing with Mr. Khrushchev now, and the new Russian leaders may have other ideas.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: To be fair to the Americans, I do not think that the M.L.F. as originally envisaged was so expensive. It was to be made up of merchant ships of about 10,000 tons each—admittedly carrying Polaris weapons—each with about 200 crew. It would not have been a costly procedure. Our share would have been about £15 million.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: My hon. Friend cannot have studied the matter. It is the machinery that goes into the guts of the ship that costs the money. Admittedly, it would not be as expensive as a nuclear submarine, but 24 ships would be very expensive, and a great deal of money would be involved in running them.
  It would aggravate the situation with the French. I can see no good coming out of it at all, and I hope that the Prime Minister will not make a token contribution by agreeing to put in a few hundred British sailors and a few officers, saying, "We have to look after our friends on the Left. We will not do very much, but we will make a token contribution." I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make it abundantly clear that we will not have anything to do with it, because, as I see the matter, it can only worsen the world situation.
  The Prime Minister talked about discussions between the leaders of the respective parties on defence matters. That is fine, if we go the whole way, as the Americans do, and have proper committees in which back benchers as well as Privy Councillors can participate. Back bench Members are just as concerned about the defence of our country as are Privy Councillors. The one Liberal Privy Councillor will probably be in on it, although he was not looked at this afternoon.
  I cannot see much joy coming out of this idea unless it embraces the idea of a committee which can keep back bench Members informed by giving them figures and secrets, after Members have taken some form of oath. I do not know what the oath would be, but most of us take an oath when being sworn in. If this idea goes forward I would like to see an all-embracing Standing Committee set up. The Paymaster-General has often put this
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  idea forward. Members of Parliament have great difficulty in obtaining information on these important matters. We have to read all we can and try to decide how much to believe when we have read it. I find that American magazines give most information on these subjects.
  I hope that the Prime Minister will not rush into something during the next few weeks. I would not be surprised if the President of the United States had not said to him, "Go back to Europe and see what you can do with the French, the Germans, the Italians and the others. See how far you can get them to agree to this business". While the Prime Minister is doing that he may have a great deal of trouble from those on his extreme Left, when deciding which way he will play it. Before any firm decision is taken about giving away the British deterrent, I hope that the House will be given much more information than it has had so far.
  7.14 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Henderson: First, I want to associate myself with the congratulations offered by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) to the four hon. Members who made their maiden speeches tonight. They were well up to standard. Indeed, I am not sure that the standard of this Parliament is not a little higher than it has been in previous Parliaments—at any rate, higher than when I made my maiden speech.
  I hope to refer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Macclesfield a little later, but I would start by suggesting that the speech of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), and the speech of the Prime Minister, followed by certain remarks of the hon. Member for Macclesfield, highlighted the basic difference of opinion between the Opposition and the Government on the nuclear concept.
  As I understand the position of the Opposition, judging from what they have done in recent years, they seek to retain a national nuclear force. It is true that they put it into N.A.T.O., under the operational control of the Commanding General of N.A.T.O., and, following the Nassau Agreement, reserved the right to withdraw the V-bombers in a national emergency. I hope that the hon. Member for Macclesfield will not make a

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  practice of claiming a monopoly of interest in the V-bomber force. If the Labour Government had not designed, developed and started production of the V-bomber force the late Government, during the last 13 years, would not have had any bombers.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I am delighted to share the V-bombers with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I only wish that in more recent years he had been able to persuade some of his hon. Friends to take the same point of view.
  Mr. Henderson: The hon. Gentleman is being unjust to my colleagues. We are saying that at the end of this decade the V-bombers will be obsolescent. We are moving rapidly into the nuclear missile era. Whether or not we like it the V-bombers will be more or less obsolescent, if not in the late 'sixties then in the early' seventies. We have merely suggested that the country should face that situation.
  I hope that I shall not get the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden into trouble with his colleagues when I say that I thought he made a constructive speech. He made one startling statement, however, which exemplifies the difference between the two sides of the House. First, he talked about Polaris missiles, and then about the V-bombers, being used east of Suez. He said that we would, therefore, require to retain them as our independent nuclear deterrent. Am I to understand that the Opposition can ever conceive of a situation in which they would launch their nuclear missiles—bombers or otherwise—on any country east of Suez, without reference to our allies?
  It we are to have proper relations with our allies, we must secure and maintain those relations by the proposition put forward by my right hon. Friend this afternoon. He said that we will take our V-bombers and our three or five Polaris submarines—and no doubt the tactical bombers which will now have a nuclear capacity—and put them into an Atlantic nuclear force. We are not scrapping our V-bombers or our submarines. We are not even handing them to someone over whom we will have no control, because we will be an equal partner in the ownership and control of that nuclear force.
  Why do we say that that is a good thing? If we seek to maintain our
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  own nuclear force—and as a good Britisher, if I may claim that privilege, I feel some pride in the fact that we are a so-called nuclear Power—the people of Germany, Italy and other countries, who have pride in their countries, will also seek to become nuclear Powers. We say that to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons in other countries we should make the gesture of handing ours over to this international or allied organisation—an organisation in which we will be an equal partner with other countries—thereby indicating to those other countries that there is no need for them to seek to have a national nuclear force.
  Viscount Lambton: Did not the Prime Minister go out of his way to emphasise that he intended to keep out of our contribution to N.A.T.O., or to the new force, a force of bombers adequate to look after our Far Eastern interests? Did not he also decline to deny that these might have nuclear armaments?
  Mr. Henderson: He did decline to answer that, but the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) has misquoted the Prime Minister. If the hon. Gentleman had listened carefully he would know that the Prime Minister said "international obligations". My right hon. Friend never said that this limited number of bombers, whatever it might be, was to be kept out of the Atlantic nuclear force in order to be an instrument of national policy. On the contrary, he said it would be used to allow us to carry out international and Commonwealth commitments. There is a very big difference.
  Viscount Lambton: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman say that we should not have the right to contribute these planes to CENTO?
  Mr. Henderson: In so far as it was in consequence of action to be taken under the Charter authorised by the Security Council—because the words used by my right hon. Friend were "international commitments" — they would be used wherever it was authorised by the United Nations. I should have thought that an exception

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  which would have been welcomed by the Opposition.
  The Prime Minister went on to refer to a mixed nuclear element. I have great misgivings on that point. I realise that there are political advantages, but I do not know of any military advantages. I have talked to many military experts and I have not found one who attaches any great military importance to this mixed-manned force, but there may be political advantages. Germany and Italy and other countries may become partners in this force and if they have contributed financially and in other ways it would be difficult to say to them, "You are not to be allowed to have any manpower involved operationally in this Atlantic force". Therefore, I think that this matter requires a great deal of consideration.
  The Prime Minister was quite clear. He said that decisions would not he rushed on the proposals under discussion. I was happy to have that assurance, because I can think of political disadvantages if a mixed-manned element is provided. We know that the Soviet Government have expressed very deep resentment and opposition to the idea of a mixed-manned force. I believe that it might even prejudice the advance towards German reunification. It would be tragic if the political situation in Europe became so poisoned, as a result of going on with this idea of a mixed-manned element, as to prevent the reunification of Germany or result in the Soviet Union and other Communist countries refusing to co-operate with us over disarmament.
  Disarmament negotiations have been going on for ten to fifteen years. Today, as we know, there exist overwhelming powers of destruction. Stocks of nuclear weapons are being built up. As was said by the hon. Member for Macclesfield, it does not matter whether a man is killed by a bullet or by a hydrogen bomb, except that the explosion of a hydrogen bomb would kill a great many people. It would require many rifle bullets to kill as many people as might die if a hydrogen bomb was exploded. This is the position we face.
  The leaders of our country, the United States and Russia—our former Prime Minister and his predecessor, my own
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  leader—have said time and again that the most urgent problem which faces the world today is the problem of disarmament. It would be tragic if anything were done to prevent the possibility of disarmament and I am glad, therefore, that the Prime Minister said that there would be no hurried decisions.
  My right hon. Friend enumerated some possibilities regarding disarmament—agreement over the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons; the extension of the ban on nuclear tests to cover underground tests; an agreement to freeze Budget expenditure on armaments; an agreement to have the so-called "bonfire" of bombs. These are not the essence of comprehensive disarmament, but they may well be partial measures which would lead to a climate in which comprehensive and general disarmament might be possible.
  Mr. Peter Thomas: Would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that none of them is very new?
  Mr. Henderson: The hon. Gentleman may make a party point if he wishes. I have not said anything about them being new, I have put some forward myself in the last two or three years as the hon. Gentleman will know. I was not trying to score a party point. I do not care who secures disarmament so long as we start on the road towards it. When the lives of hundreds of millions of people are at stake, why do we want to fiddle around with party politics? I say again that I do not care who achieves disarmament so long as we start on the road to disarmament. My point is that we have not yet started. Therefore, I do not want anything done by any Government in this or any other country which would delay or jeopardise the possibility of making a start on disarmament. I hope that in the mission he is to undertake the Prime Minister will be successful in that respect.
  The hon. Member for Macclesfield referred to the situation in the Congo. To some extent I share his criticisms of the United Nations. On the other hand, do not let us be under any illusion about this matter. The United Nations is not a corporate body, nor is there one mind able to make a decision. When we look at the course of events in the Congo, it is extremely disturbing as it becomes more and more evident that in the

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  United Nations there is a vacuum which becomes apparent at times of crisis. What happened in July 1960? The Security Council took a decision to send a United Nations force to the Congo. The force was there from July, 1960, until the last United Nations soldier was taken out on 30th June, 1964. The turbulence which has characterised that country ever since started within a week of the last of the United Nations troops leaving the Congo.
  Why was the United Nations force taken out? Because a large number of countries which are members of the United Nations refused to pay their assessed dues needed to pay for that force. I agree with the hon. Member for Macclesfield. I would say to the members of the General Assembly and the representatives of the countries belonging to the United Nations that they cannot have it both ways. They must make up their minds what they want. Last week there were most outspoken criticisms by the representatives of the Soviet Union and of other Communist countries, and a large number of African representatives, of the Belgian Government, the United States Government and our own Government. A great rescue operation was described as a military operation, carried out by Belgian paratroops, aided by United States transport squadrons, with the connivance of the United Kingdom.
  The United Nations cannot have it both ways. If its members are not prepared to organise a standby force which can be made available to deal with crises such as occurred when 2,000 or 3,000 hostages were used as a pawn in a civil war, they cannot blame other countries connected with those hostages from taking action to rescue them.
  The Minister of State said the other day that discussions were taking place in the United Nations on the question of standby forces. I hope that Her Majesty's Government intend to play their full part in those discussions. One of the troubles is that the United Nations Charter in this respect has not been carried out, because under Article 43 it is possible for member States to make special agreements with the Security Council for the provision of men and materials.
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  It is not stated in that Article that they may be used only for enforcement action under Chapter 7. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will indicate their willingness to provide a standby contingent or, if that is not acceptable, certainly to provide logistic support. It is interesting to note that in July of this year the Soviet Union sent a memorandum to the Secretary General suggesting that discussions take place on the question of special agreements for the provision of personnel in connection with a standby force.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Macclesfield referred to China. I am sure that he does not think that even if we deployed the whole of our V-bomber force we would wish to take on China alone. We on this side believe in collective security. For the last 40 years the party which I support has believed in a system of collective security within the framework of disarmament. We cannot safeguard our security or that of other Commonwealth countries and deal with it on the basis of our own resources.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman misunderstood me. I did not say that we would go to the aid of India alone. Naturally, that would have to be done with other nations, but we would play our full part.
  Mr. Henderson: If it came to that, I agree that we would play our full part, but there is another way to look at this problem. We will never get general disarmament while China is kept outside the conference room. We will not achieve universality so long as China is kept out of the United Nations, and I hope that she will be brought in without delay. China may be able to teach us a few things, but I am sure that we could teach her a good many things, too.
  When I was in Africa, some time ago, I saw a rogue elephant running through the bush. I was told that while it was on its own it would get up to all sorts of mischief and cause damage. There is every reason for China to be in the United Nations. She should be in on the disarmament discussions at Geneva and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will not be afraid to make overtures to Mao Tse-tung with this in mind. I do not know whether this is acceptable but I would not object to

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  Mao Tse-tung being invited to London, the ground having been properly prepared for him. We cannot go on considering China as an outcast.
  My right hon. Friend has undertaken a great peace mission. Great responsibilities are placed on him and, although he is not in his place at the moment, I wish him godspeed in the great work for peace to which he has set his hand.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Chataway: The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) emphasised again by his speech how much more convenient it would have been had we had a statement from the Prime Minister yesterday. if the Prime Minister was prepared to give this information today, surely he could have given it yesterday.
  There is bound to be a good deal of disagreement about what the Prime Minister said. The right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton put a strange construction on that part of the Prime Minister's speech which dealt with the V-bombers, which were not to be added to the Atlantic nuclear force but retained for use east of Suez. The right hon. and learned Gentleman understood the Prime Minister to say that those V-bombers were to be used to further our international obligations and he took that to mean that we would deploy those forces only in support of objects which had the approval of the United Nations Security Council. If that were the arrangement, it would be impossible to use our V-bombers in support of Malaysia, and the same would apply to the defence of India against China.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Perhaps when the hon. Member gets home he will be good enough to read Article 51 of the Charter, where he will find it stated that there is a right of self-defence which is not affected by obligations incurred by members of the United Nations.
  Mr. Chataway: I understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman's point to be that we were somehow to be limited in the use to which we could put our V-bombers by the remarks the Prime Minister made today.
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  Most hon. Members will wish to look in some detail at the speech of the Prime Minister before coming to a conclusion about his proposals. I was interested, and somewhat relieved, to find that the Prime Minister was not taking up any dogmatic determination to renounce our ultimate control over our nuclear weapons. I was reassured by what he said about our obligations east of Suez.
  This Government are bound to be under the suspicion that they are primarily interested in these negotiations with somehow appearing to get rid of Britain's ultimate control over her deterrent. They are bound to be under the suspicion that they are more interested in finding a form of words which seems consistent with their pre-election pledges than in anything else. But if the Prime Minister says that the purpose of his plans is to strengthen the Western Alliance, even if one-third of hon. Members opposite are opposed to the Western Alliance, we must accept what the right hon. Gentleman says.
  If the Prime Minister tells the House that in these plans he is anxious to get a share of control over the Western deterrent which divides power more equitably between the two sides of the Atlantic, then, even if one-third of right hon. and hon. Members opposite are opposed to the Western deterrent, we must accept what the Prime Minister says. If, however these two objectives are to be achieved, clearly a precondition for the Government is for them to make plain that they understand the legitimate concern there is on this side of the Atlantic that the ultimate safety of Britain and Western Europe should not solely be in the hands of the United States.
  This is an argument that has been deployed very often in the past few months in relation to this country, and that concern is perfectly legitimate. However few hon. Members would say so in such a debate as this, it is a concern which must be shared by a lot of hon. Members opposite. It is also a concern in Europe that is not confined simply to General de Gaulle or to the so-called Gaullistes in Germany. In Western Europe there must be anxiety to ensure that the system of control over the Atlantic deterrent is such as really to

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  share ultimate power between Europe and the United States.
  For the success of this plan it is necessary for the Government to persuade Europe that they understand this problem and are concerned to solve it. For the success of this plan, as for other and I think more important reasons, it is one of the urgent priorities of this Government to shed their anti-European attitudes. The Prime Minister has a lot of leeway to make up. I do not want to dwell now on the appalling muddle over the import surcharge or the Concord. They were, of course, a miserably bad start, and did no more than confirm the anti-European reputation that the Prime Minister and many of his leading colleagues have acquired in the past few years—
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Walter Padley): Nonsense.
  Mr. Chataway:The hon. Gentleman says "nonsense", but perhaps he would agree that Mr. Boyd of The Guardian is not usually unduly hostile to the party opposite, nor does he usually misrepresent the attitudes of the Labour Party, yet in June of this year lie posed the question as to why the Labour Party was so contemptuous of Europe—
  Mr. Padley: Will the hon. Gentleman give the quotation?
  Mr. Chataway: It was in June of this year:
  "Why is … Labour … so contemptuous of … Europe?"
  Mr. Padley: Five words are not a quotation. Give the context.
  Mr. Chataway: The hon. Gentleman thinks that I have not brought it with me, but if he were interested I would be very willing to read the entire article. It is headed "Aspects of Politics". It is dated 30th June, 1964— "Labour and Europe" by Francis Boyd:
  "Why is it that Labour, which has long prided itself on its internationalism, should be so contemptuous of Western Europe?"
  I do not know whether 20 words make a quotation where five do not. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the article was concerned to try to find an answer to this puzzle. It is not for me to give answers this evening, but I suspect that the answer is rooted in some of the
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  anachronistic ideologies that swirl in the muddy depths of the Labour Party.
  The Government must recognise that they have acquired this reputation particularly during the course of the Common Market negotiations. The present Prime Minister then distinguished himself as one of the most waspish, and, I think, one of the meanest critics of the European Common Market. He sneeringly referred to it on many occasions as "the rich man's club". He never talked of the agricultural system within the Common Market without referring to Schacht—Hitler's finance minister. It is very difficult, looking through the right hon. Gentleman's speeches on the subject, ever to find a mention by him of the agricultural system without a mention of Schacht. The right hon. Gentleman asked, in our debate on 8th November, 1962, whether, if we joined the Common Market, Krupps would be coming to take over our steel industry.
  The Labour Party of that time stirred up many of the Commonwealth difficulties, particularly in relation to the African part of the Commonwealth, where they encouraged African Commonwealth members to reject the very generous offer of A.O.T. status that was made, and which most of those African countries are now seeking to negotiate for themselves. One could go on with these examples, but I am sure that it would be accepted by most right hon. and hon. Members that if the Government wish to be accepted in Europe, they have a great leeway to make up.
  The argument today is not about joining the Common Market—that option is not, at the moment, open to Great Britain. The arguments for working and for hoping for future British membership of a European community are as strong today as they were strong then. But there is one opportunity open to this country, one European issue that is becoming very much alive, and that is the issue of European political union. I was delighted that my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) gave to this issue such importance in his speech today. He urged on the House that it should be recognised that the attempt to reach political union in Europe was fundamental to so many other ambitions that are common to people in all parts of this

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  House. Only today, the Common Market has finally reached agreement on cereal prices, and this will clearly mean an enormous amount in the development of the Common Market. It is likely that it will hasten the move towards European political union.
  The Foreign Secretary, within four or five days of his taking office, briefed the Press, if one understands aright the reports of the diplomatic correspondents, to the effect that this Government like their predecessors, were anxious to take part in talks on political union. That has been confirmed by Government spokesmen on one or two subsequent occasions, but I must say that the impression in Europe is that the Government are paying no more than lip-service to the idea, and have no interest in the development of European political union.
  I notice that that impression, which I find to be common in Europe, was confirmed by the Washington correspondent of The Times who, reporting last Monday, said:
  "The talks between Mr. Wilson and President Johnson ranged far and wide, but appeared only rarely to touch upon political union in which Mr. Wilson did not seem to be much interested."
  I suggest that two of the most urgent priorities for this Government in their relations with European countries at the moment are these. First, they should make it abundantly clear that we want to take part in talks about European political union and that we really want to be members of such a union. The second is for the Government to do their best, and as soon as possible, to eliminate the impression created by their attitude during the Common Market negotiations.
  The sooner the ridiculous five conditions are renounced the better. Clearly, so long as the party opposite rests its European policies on those five conditions it will be impossible for it ever to take part in any of the developments in Europe. If we are to see the growing sums that Europe spends in overseas aid used to their maximum advantage, there must be greater unity. If we are to see the ideas and ideals of Western Europe count for what they ought to count in the years to come, we cannot afford the present fragmentation between European states. The arguments both political and economic
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  for a unified Europe are as strong today as they were two or three years ago.
  One may hope that more and more people are coming to see that. I believe this is the case. Our relations with Europe are certainly relevant to the narrow purpose, with which we are primarily concerned today, the Government's professed desire to see a fairer distribution of power over the Atlantic deterrent. The Government will be enormously helped if they make it plain right from the start that they associate themselves with Europe, and that they recognise that Britain is and must be a part of Europe and not simply a satellite of the United States of America.
  7.52 p.m.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: The hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. Chataway) accused my right Friend the Prime Minister of some waspish sentiments. The speech of the hon. Member was the one lone wasp we have heard in this debate. He made reference to the fact that if my right hon. Friend said that the Labour Party adhered to the Western Alliance we would have to accept it even though some of my hon. Friends are alleged to be against it. He spoke of our alleged anti-European posture and to a number of ancillary matters. If he will do me the honour of listening to some reflections which I wish to offer on his speech I hope that his mind may be set at rest.
  I begin by saying a warm word of congratulation to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Many people before the General Election said—it was widely believed and a number of people voted on this basis—that if Labour won the election it would lead to a neutralist Britain. No contention has proved more wrong more quickly than that. If anyone looks at the history of the Labour Party he may see that this was inevitable. There have been two major watersheds in the history of the Labour Party. The first was in 1935 when Hugh Dalton and Ernest Bevin were responsible for seeing that those who followed a pacifist policy in the face of the rise of Mussolini and Hitler should not control the destinies of the Labour Party. Reference has been made to Ernest Bevin already—he was one of the great Foreign Secretaries in British history—his victory of 1935 made possible the Labour victory of 1945.

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  Then there was the long argument which went on in 1960 and 1961. The result of that argument was decisive in making possible the Labour Government of 1964. Not only all my right hon. Friends who sit on the Treasury Bench but the whole country will always be in debt to a man whose courage at that time and whose sacrifice made that victory possible and whose self-sacrifice probably prevented him from being here today. He will always be in our thoughts.
  These are grave days in the history of this country, probably much graver than the public realises. It is not merely a question of the £ sterling being in the balance; it is of the whole national purpose being under appraisal. When one is considering an exercise of this vast magnitude, or indeed any exercise, it is always essential to state the central strategic objective. What is the central strategic objective in the present situation? Obviously, in the wide sweep, it is to secure a healthy society here at home and an influential voice in the affairs of man. This can be done only if it is based on a viable economy and on a wise defence and foreign policy. The crux of that is the economy, but that is outside the scope of this debate.
  I propose to say a word or two about different aspects of defence and foreign policy. There are three aspects to which I propose to speak. First, there is the objective in Europe itself. Secondly, there is the problem of the Orient, which has been referred to at considerable length in this debate. Thirdly, there is the question of which the hon. Member for Lewisham, North spoke, our relations as a nation with Europe.
  First, what is the problem as far as it concerns Europe? In the first place, it is to secure a viable defence against the problem which is posed by the continuing hostility of the Soviet Union. Of course, it is quite reasonable to contend that the hostility of the Soviet Union is diminishing. Certainly significant steps were taken before Mr. Khrushchev fell from power which indicated that the Soviet Union was moving towards a genuine desire for some form of limited détente in Europe. There were very significant developments such as the visit of Mr. Adzhubei to Bonn which was intended to be a forerunner of Mr. Khrushchev's own visit.
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  Since then there has been a change of Government. It is too early yet to say what policies are likely to be followed by Mr. Brezhnev and Mr. Kosygin or whether, indeed, they are the gentlemen with whom we shall have to deal. It may be Mr. Shelepin or Mr. Podgorny. I agree with the Prime Minister on the need to perform a reconnaissance. I think he is absolutely right to do that to see how the land lies. But I enter two caveats. First, it is only too obvious that we should be extremely cautious and not expect too much too quickly.
  We have to remember that it was four years from Stalin's death in 1953 until June, 1957, before the internal debate in the Soviet Union was resolved and we got a positive Soviet foreign policy. There was a general standstill on Soviet foreign policy. This may well be the case, or it may not be the case, again. The point I emphasise is that it is important not to be optimistic lest we should be disappointed.
  The second caveat I enter is that it is very important not to repeat the mistakes made by Mr. Harold Macmillan in 1959 when he got out on a limb from our allies. That led to the fiasco in May, 1960, and may ultimately have had an influence on the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations in January, 1963. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will not be making this mistake, but I make the point because it is important for us to remember.
  As to the Russian problem in Europe—I use the word "problem" rather than "threat" because there is a movement away from the old implacable hostility of the Soviet Union—we are likely to be with it for a number of years to come. It will not be until the Russians are out of East Germany, out of Poland, out of Bulgaria, out of Roumania and Hungary and behind the River Bug that the Russian problem in Europe will have finally disappeared. I see an hon. Member shaking his head. These are not my words. They are the words of somebody else.
  "In correspondence with the Yalta Agreement the Soviet Union, under the pretext of guaranteeing the independence of Mongolia, actually put that country under its rule…In 1954 when Khrushchev and Bulganin arrived in China, we raised this question but they refused to talk with us. They have appropriated part of Roumania. Detaching parts of

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  East Germany, they drove out the local inhabitants to the Western area. Detaching part of Poland they included it in Russia and as compensation gave Poland part of East Germany. The same thing happened to Finland. They detached everything that could be detached."
  That was Mr. Mao Tse-tung on 10th July, 1964, addressing a Japanese delegation. It was not Mr. Dulles who was expressing that point of view. It was a good staunch comrade.
  We must preserve a viable Western defence, and the problem is likely to be with us for some time to come. In any easement that takes place on the part of the Soviet Union, we must remember that the watershed was Cuba and that it was the glint of American resolution at that time and the maintenance of the Western nuclear deterrent in the years before which have enabled people to walk the streets of West Berlin in freedom and, indeed, to sit in this House and speak in freedom, too.
  The second aspect of the European problem concerns our own relations with the Alliance. This stems from the fact that the Alliance first came into being as a preponderantly American-led venture, with Britain as a senior junior partner. Since then we have seen the resurgence of modern Europe. It is only right and proper that, with Europe growing in vitality and influence, as it is, the European nations should demand a greater political say in the affairs of the Western Alliance. Yesterday it was France. Today it is Western Germany.
  Perhaps I may say one word about each of those two countries. First, France We may not agree with all of the President's policies, but France exists. It is only 20 miles from our shores. What happens in France is of vital concern to the people of this country. It is not so long ago that a British Prime Minister spoke of Czechoslovakia as "a far away country of which we know nothing". How much nearer is France and how much smaller the world is today and how bitter was the lesson that we had of insularity at that time.
  As to Western Germany, it would do us no harm nationally to have a look at ourselves in the mirror at our national psychology in regard to our relations with the Germans. It so happens, as
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  many hon. Members know, that my own constituency was called upon to play a part—a small but important part—in the pilot scheme in the Anglo-German rapprochement. I naturally feel a sense of vicarious pride that my constituents dealt with the problem with great maturity and a great deal of common sense. The many thousands of young Germans who come to my constituency each year could not be more model citizens, and I wish all troops were as good as they are.
  What is the specific problem as to the international nature of the Alliance? In the course of his speech this afternoon, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister went a long way to answering many of the questions which have been posed. When hon. Members on both sides have had a chance of studying his speech in closer detail tomorrow in its printed form, they will see how far my right hon. Friend has actually gone. He showed that those who have contended that there were any secret commitments are quite wrong. What he has done is perfectly clear. He went to Washington and expressed our doubts about the multi-manned surface fleet and he offered, instead, a proposal for an Atlantic nuclear force, which may be dressed up in A.N.F. uniforms, or whatever one likes. To that would be contributed the British Polaris submarines and a proportion of our V-bomber force.
  If the report in The Times is clear about what our Foreign Secretary said yesterday to the N.A.T.O. Council of Ministers, these commitments will be irrevocable. What we want to be clear about is what is meant by "irrevocable". In the actual control of this Atlantic nuclear force, presumably there will be, as my right hon. Friend said, a supreme authority. How does the veto in the control of the nuclear weapons operate? As to the British contribution, do the British submarines and the British V-bombers have an electronic lock on them operated by the spokesman of the supreme authority? If that is so, does that electronic lock also have a second safety catch in the form of action by the American President? These are the type of questions which will have to emerge later.
  It is clear from my right hon. Friend's proposals that he has entered into no

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  commitment up to now. Although the Americans may have felt that something was implicit in what my right hon. Friend was putting forward, nothing has actually been said or done irrevocably.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Is it not equally clear that, just as the Prime Minister claims to have entered into no commitment with the United States, so, in spite of all the publicity that has been given, Mr. Johnson has not entered into any commitment with the Prime Minister?
  Mr. Donnelly: I quite agree. What has happened is that my right hon. Friend has gone there with an alternative proposal to the mixed-manned surface fleet. Mr. Johnson has said, "This is very interesting. If you can persuade the Germans to accept this, this may well be acceptable to us, the United States of America". The Prime Minister's idea is not only the British contribution, but that there will be a land based mixed-manned contingent which would allow presumably German participation and also French participation at a later date leaving the door open for France.
  Here one enters into some self-questioning, which is only right and proper. Far be it from me to speak for the French Government, but any hon. Member can assume what is likely to be their answer at the present stage. For the Germans, in my view, the mixed-manned surface fleet has come to represent a form of symbol today which is comparable to the British and American contributions to any Atlantic nuclear force. I think that it may well be that the Germans will not accept no mixed-manned surface fleet as being a satisfactory solution.
  I advise my right hon. Friend to be extremely cautious about getting into any situation where he is committed irrevocably against a mixed-manned surface fleet, because if that situation arose it might lead to an impasse in the Alliance which, in the long run, might be extremely detrimental to the national interests of this country and of the West as well. After that, we might easily find ourselves in a situation in which the Germans, having been rebuffed by us, turned to a new form of love affair with the French. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler)
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  touched upon this earlier and, in so doing, warned against the growth of Gaullism in Germany.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: My hon. Friend will permit me to quote from the Labour Party election manifesto:
  "We are against the development of national nuclear deterrents and oppose the current American proposal for a new mixed-manned nuclear surface fleet (MLF)."
  Would not my hon. Friend agree that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and he himself are equally bound by this declaration?
  Mr. Donnelly: First, nobody is saying that we are in favour of it. Secondly, no country, least of all this country, can permanently fly in the face of the opinion of its principal allies. if my hon. Friend stays in the House a long time he should study Emerson—
  "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.…"
  It is extremely dangerous to enter into a situation where one is out on a limb, and where there might be an impasse in Europe which would be demaging to the national interests of this country, but I do not think there is a single hon. Member on this side of the House who has had the temerity to question that statement.
  I turn from Europe to say a word about the Orient, and in passing I should like to say a word or two about the situation in the Gulf. As I said in our last Foreign Affairs debate in the last Parliament, the Gulf, and as my right hon. Friend rightly implied, is not merely a British interest. It is also a Western interest and, indeed, the fact that the Pax Britannica still exists in the Persian Gulf is an Arab interest as well, so far as enlightened Arabs are concerned. Therefore, there can be no question of walking out upon that obligation.
  Then let me move further East. Considerable reference has been made to China today. In the course of this year the Chinese have staked claims to Bhutan, Sikkim, Nepal, Burma, Vietnam, Korea and Malaya, to say nothing of several hundred thousand square miles of the Soviet Union. This poses a very serious threat in the Orient. The explosion of the Chinese nuclear bomb, even without a means of delivery, and in

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  a comparatively primitive economy at the moment, poses a very serious problem. On top of this there is the prospect of a Communist President in Indonesia. One has only to look at the map of South-East Asia to see that the threat posed to Australasia is very serious indeed.
  We have to address ourselves to this problem in three different ways. First of all, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spoke about a section of the V-bomber force which would be kept for the Far East—or, at least, for areas outside N.A.T.O. areas. This is obviously what he was speaking about, and how right he was. We have got to be perfectly clear that there may come a situations—I hope it will never come—in which the Indians will be threatened with being overrun by the Chinese. In that case we have got to face the same kind of threat in much more difficult circumstances in the Far East as we faced in the fluid situation in Europe in 1947 and 1948. We have got to have the means to convince the Chinese that an attack on Calcutta or Rangoon or Kuala Lumpur or Singapore would be regarded as an attack on Berlin was regarded as an attack on Washington, Paris, London or Bonn. This is the inevitable consequences of pursuing a responsible policy of containment.
  Then we have got to examine how this nuclear umbrella is raised over India. If we leave the Indians entirely at the mercy of the Americans, we put them in a very difficult situation. Therefore, it is very important for the British to have participation in some new organisation, perhaps under the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation or some organisation to be created. We must address ourselves to the possibility of some kind of multilateral force in the Orient. It may be necessary to include Japan, too, because in the Japanese we shall be facing a problem in the next 10 or 15 years comparable to the problem of Germany now.
  It is quite proper that the other European countries should share that burden, too, because if the Western Alliance means anything it should become a worldwide alliance and the whole concept of N.A.T.O. ought to be extended much wider. This containment policy will not be pursued only by nuclear weapons. It
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  has got to be supported by conventional weapons. This means that although we may want to fulfil our obligations East of Suez, as the phrase runs, the question arises whether this country has the will and the ability to fulfil its obligations. "Will" is the predominant word. In these circumstances, the question really is one of troops and where they are coming from.
  I expressed a view on this subject in the past and I do so again. I do not think there is any particularly honourable position occupied by Britain in the Western Alliance when this is the only leading country which seeks to get out of its military obligations by avoiding National Service. I think there will come a day when the British Government will have to face the implication or abdicate its rôle in the Orient. There is no alternative to this. We have got to face the fact that we have got to have the troops. If we have not got the troops we have not got the influence. Very often the people who shout for the most influence are prepared to make the least contribution.
  Beyond and above all that, there is the question of the social challenge of Communism. This is far more subtle than in the comparatively sophisticated economies of Western Europe in 1947 and 1948. All I would say about that is that when we think of Communism we think of how much we have got to lose, but when the Asians think of Communism they think of how much they have got to gain. Until we have got that concept straight we shall not be able to face up to the long-term implications of this challenge. It is a challenge to our practicality, our vision and our humanity.
  This brings me to the crux of the whole of this argument. Our contribution inevitably must be marginal until our base is wider. This is where the hon. Member for Lewisham, North rightly touched upon the crucial point. The industrial base here is not wide enough. The military base here is not wide enough. Even the political base here is not wide enough. In the long run, if this country is not to become an unimportant little England off the Continent of Europe, it is inevitable that it should join political forces with the Continent of Europe. By that I mean full integration. There is no long-term alternative.

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  I do not know in what circumstances or under what terms Britain would join it. I cannot see that far. All I am saying tonight is that within the lifetime of most people in this Chamber this will come about and there is no practical alternative other than Britain being reduced in the course of 20 years to the position of another Holland. That is the crux of the whole argument. That is what British politics is going to be about in the next decade, more than any other single issue.
  I began by saying what is the object of the exercise. I have spoken for rather longer than I had intended. I will merely say this in conclusion. We are at the moment of reappraisal and of great opportunity. The opportunity is comparable to the one in 1947 and 1948, only it is a world-wide opportunity. At that time it was the Americans who came forward with the Marshall Plan, and Mr. Bevin grasped their offer with both hands. There is an opportunity now for Her Majesty's Government to produce a comparable initiative in the affairs of the Western Alliance which will be of lasting benefit to the Alliance. It can be comparable in every way in its permanent value to the Marshall Plan initiative. I wish my right hon. Friend all success.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Aidan Crawley: It is a pleasure to follow in the debate the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly), because he is one of the most independent Members in the House. I am sure that his congratulations to the Prime Minister were genuine because he has always held firm and clear ideas about defence. I shall touch on several things which he mentioned in the course of my few remarks. I should like, first, to go back to the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson), which illustrates so clearly the difficulties of debating a detailed speech like that of the Prime Minister's at short notice. There were two things which I thought I clearly understood from the Prime Minister's speech. I hope that same right hon. Member opposite will tell me or the House if I am wrong about them.
  The first idea was quite clear. It was that the Prime Minister was not going
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  to abandon the whole of the British deterrent and that he was quite definitely going to keep some of it, some of the V-bombers, for use east of Suez. Then the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton raised doubts on this very point, but surely there is no point in retaining V-bombers for use east of Suez unless they are part of the deterrent. There are two few of them to use as conventional weapons with effect. They were built to carry nuclear weapons and to act as a deterrent and I took the Prime Minister to mean that these V-bombers could certainly be used by the United Nations if the United Nations were intervening and called for them and also could be used to respond to requests from other parts of the Commonwealth—if they came from Malaysia, or if India were threatened by any form of nuclear threat.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: The Prime Minister has just come in and perhaps he can enlighten us.
  Mr. Crawley: The Prime Minister is not in the Chamber. He is beyond the Bar of the House. [An HON. MEMBER: "He is shaking his head."] I am told that the Prime Minister is shaking his head. I hope that it will be made clear to us what he meant. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman meant that he would retain part of the British deterrent for use under various conditions in the Far East in face of a possible nuclear threat from China. I very much welcome this statement, not merely because it was a change, but also because it seemed to serve not only British interests but the interests of peace in the Far East. If this was not what the right hon. Gentleman meant—and there was undoubtedly a good deal of confusion in the House about it—I hope that now or later he will at least make this plain.
  Another point in the Prime Minister's speech which I thought I understood was about the Atlantic mixed-manned force. But I am not clear why it is called "Atlantic". I thought at first that the Prime Minister meant a naval force to be used literally in the Atlantic, but he then spoke about a mixed-manned land force as well. What is the Atlantic force to be? Is is to be a new N.A.T.O. force under N.A.T.O. command to operate in the N.A.T.O. area, or has it

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  some relationship to the Atlantic? I noted that the Prime Minister said that in any such force, if constituted, Britain would not only have a national contingent but would retain her own veto. Therefore, whatever the Prime Minister says, he is not abandoning control over our national contingent if we can exercise a veto. We might have to exercise it by withdrawing our contingent and this means that we retain control of it.
  The most important general impression from the Prime Minister's speech was that he is seeking not only to strengthen the Alliance but to strengthen the deterrent. This is not only important in view of the nuclear disarmers and unilateral disarmers who have been among his supporters but it is also important for this country and its position in the world. Yet, if we are to judge the right hon. Gentleman's proposals, it seems to me that for a moment we must look below the immediate negotiations to the real object which the right hon. Gentleman and the Government have in mind.
  We have to ask the simple question: why is the deterrent necessary? It is necessary because the Western Powers since the war have failed to be able to collaborate with the Communist Powers. It is necessary because the Communist Powers, whatever changes are taking place in some of them, are still determined to spread Communism throughout the world and in this determination are backed by formidable nuclear power. The whole purpose of the right hon. Gentleman's negotiations, or rather the underlying assumption of these negotions, is that if there were not a Western deterrent the Communists would now dominate and rule Europe and much of the rest of the world. The Prime Minister's policy and object is, through strengthening the deterrent, to continue to prevent Communists from spreading their power throughout the world and to continue to give protection to all countries that wish to resist Communism.
  If the Government are to succeed in this policy—and I am not sure how far some hon. Members opposite share it—it seems to me that they must tackle the challenge where it is most dangerous. Here I absolutely agree with the Prime
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  Minister that the most real and immediate danger is in the Far East. It is true that there is a balance of nuclear power in Europe and that both the Atlantic Community and the Soviet Union have nuclear weapons which have reached annihilation point; what we have to do in Europe is to hold the balance and reduce the power through disarmament. But no such balance exists in the Far East. There is no doubt that either Russia or the United States could destroy great parts of China, but the fact is that Russia will never do anything to stop China from spreading Communism in Asia with every means at her disposal. And many of the directions in which the Chinese are spreading Communism are not the prime responsibility of the United States. As nuclear power grows, China will threaten not only Malaysia but India as well.
  The Chinese are not making nuclear weapons for nothing. They are not making them to challenge the United States or Russia but, as they constantly remind us, to act as a great encouragement to the revolutionary peoples of the world. That was their phrase just after they exploded their bomb, and I doubt whether non-nuclear people will be comforted by the additional assertion that these weapons are a great contribution to world peace. Those revolutionaries to whom they will give immediate encouragement are, of course, those nearest their own borders.
  A Government who have been guilty of the horrors in Tibet, where I think the horrors were on a greater scale than anything that has happened since the Nazis, a Government who still declare day after day their belief in world war, even if it is a nuclear war, to spread Communism, and a Government who, as an African Communist pointed out to me, urge their supporters not to worry if hundreds of millions die in such a war, because they will be born again—such a Government will not hesitate to use nuclear weapons if they can do so without immediate retaliation. And there are wide areas in Southern Asia where no organisation for retaliation now exists.
  In particular, of course, this means India. I suppose that, for the next few years, the British deterrent alone—I mean

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  not used alone but used at India's invitation or under the United Nations—could guarantee the security of India because China's nuclear weapons will not be very effective. But I doubt that we have any understanding with India, and it may be very difficult to secure. Yet I am sure I carry hon. Members opposite with me in saying that the integrity and progress of India can make a vital contribution to world peace and is one of the vital factors in the world situation today.
  I hope, therefore, that the Prime Minister, as he is considering the whole question of the Far East, will draw the Americans in to organise some form of proper guarantee for India against possible nuclear attack. It will take time. It may mean ourselves contributing something to the American effort in other parts of Southern Asia, but, unless we do it, there will be a dangerous gap in the whole strategy of the deterrent.
  If the Chinese nuclear threat is the first challenge which the Government have to meet in their policy of holding Communism through the deterrent, the second challenge is much more subtle and diffuse. Because, hitherto, the deterrent has worked, Communists all over the world, the Communist Powers in particular, had been spreading Communism and penetrating other countries by other means. Long before Mr. Chou En-lai talked about Africa being ripe for revolution, the Russians were picking the fruit and finding quite a good harvest not only in Africa but in South America and the Middle East.
  When we remember that as late as 1956, the only officially accredited Russian in Africa was a doctor serving in a hospital in Addis Ababa who was there because of a treaty which the Emperor Menelek had made with the Tsar Nicholas, and when we reflect that now there are more than 110 Iron Curtain missions in Africa, more than 60 educational and cultural treaties made with African countries, innumerable trade treaties, and so on, we can see what enormous strides the open and official diplomatic Communist offensive has made in a very few years; and, of course, as every African State has soon discovered, the Russians and the Communist Powers are interested in more than establishing diplomatic relations.
  In almost every country of Africa—I happen to have seen this at first hand
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  —penetration, well and carefully planned, is going on. The pattern is repeated with extraordinary regularity. In practically every independent African country, the trade union movement has at one point been split. Sometimes, the split has been healed, but even in such a country as Nigeria the most powerful trade unions are actually affiliated to the Communist World Federation of Trade Unions in Prague. The same is true in Morocco, and right throughout Africa, due to steady penetration and policy, trade unions have been split or the split is potentially there.
  Every nationalist party—this is true and has been true of the Middle East, too—contains within it individuals or groups of individuals sympathetic to Communism who are not only wooed by the Communists but very often paid by them. As everyone in the House knows, these people are working within their own Governments to establish a different type of Government, a more Marxist type of Government, and working for subversion.
  Lastly, there are all the students who have been attracted back to the Iron Curtain countries. Only a small proportion of them have yet returned home. The great majority of these students were those who failed to qualify for education either in their own countries or in Western countries and they are, therefore, of a low standard. Most of them are not yet on higher education but are being trained as party workers, sometimes as guerrilla fighters or saboteurs, but very often as good party organisers. All these people will begin to come back to strengthen the hand of the trade unionists and nationalists who are already on the Communist side.
  It has been fashionable lately to say that this Communist expansion and penetration has received a rebuff. It has been fashionable to say that, because Mr. Ben Bella in Algeria or President Nasser in Egypt has actually banned the Communist Party or arrested Communists, and because African nationalism is very strong, the whole movement has been checked and that Africans, like the Arabs, will develop their own new civilisation and new ideology.
  I regard this as a very complacent view. From Moscow or Peking, the progress of Communist expansion must look extraordinarily promising. The Russian plans

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  have been very carefully laid and are long term. They were put into operation, first, by the late Professor Potehkin and they have been carried through, and are being carried through, by the African Institute in Moscow. In one writing after another, Communists accept the new nationalism in Africa as a phase in the liberation of the African, as a phase in his development into a true Socialist and a true Communist. They support any nationalist Government and give it particular support if it will suppress all institutions which protect the individual. Even extreme Right-wing Governments which destroy democratic institutions get support from the Communists. They also accept non-alignment as a first step in the liberation of newly independent countries from the West and, in an Orwellian sense, try to make them more nonaligned in their own direction.
  If one looks at the Casablanca Powers, from the Russian and Chinese point of view, and sees how greatly dependent they are on Soviet aid—Chinese aid is very small—when one sees that the governmental methods that they adopt are closely modelled on those of the Soviet Union, when one sees this in Somalia and other countries, in some of which there are no institutions protecting individual freedom, when one looks at Tanzania and at what has happened in Kenya, one cannot but come to the conclusion that Communism and the effort of the Communist Powers is gaining ground. I think it is very likely to gain more ground. I do not think that we are at the moment necessarily winning the battle.
  It is likely to gain more ground, first, because the students will return, and there are many thousands of them. I have spoken to many of them of various political colours. Although probably the majority of them may be disillusioned when they come back from behind the Iron Curtain, there will be in every country a nucleus of really dedicated Communists. They are often professional men, doctors and lawyers. They are not nationalists. They have moved far beyond that. They are dedicated Communists who are returning to Africa to convert their own nationalist Governments to the true world Communist outlook. This process has only just begun. As more and more students go back and strengthen those who are there, we shall
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  find this whole struggle intensified, and we shall get an increased effort by the Communists in all the new territories.
  Then we have the advent of the Chinese. I have always been a little puzzled by the great success of the Chinese in stimulating revolutionary activity in Africa and South America. The aid they give is tiny. The number of projects which they have been able to put into operation is insignificant. Also, I have not found that Africans or Arabs get on particularly well with the Chinese. I do not believe it is a question of colour. I believe that it is the passionate belief of the Chinese in violent action, revolutionary action, as a means of gaining power which attracts all the extremer elements in all the new countries, which attracts all the elements which are still power hungry. They suddenly see a chance of overthrowing their first nationalist Governments and gaining power themselves,and they will jump at any help—it is mainly financial and not very great—which the Chinese can give.
  Whatever the outcome of the Russo-Chinese scrap, I am sure that within Africa, South America and the Middle East the rift will not affect the progress of global Communism. What the Chinese advent has done is to give an enormous impetus to the whole revolutionary movement. That is why I believe that the whole struggle will intensify.
  Therefore, if the Government are to succeed in their policy with the deterrent of halting the progress of Communism, they must meet this second challenge. What can they do more than is being done? I do not believe it can be done through aid. I agree with everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) said in his maiden speech about the organisation of aid, but the fact is that Communist progress is being made in those countries in spite of the massive aid that the West is now giving. We give between 20 and 30 times as much aid in nearly all these countries as the Communists do.
  Aid is necessary, but the Communist threat will not be halted by seeking countries' political allegiance through aid. It cannot be done through the Commonwealth, if only because many Commonwealth countries are battlefields in this great struggle themselves. For the same

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  reason, it cannot be done through the United Nations. I believe that there are only two ways in which we can improve our position and that of the West in this great struggle all over the world.
  The first is to stand up for our convictions. Democracy may not be exportable, but it is still the best hope of civilisation. Autocratic power may be growing, but checks on it will always be necessary if we are ever to break away from tyrannies and if these new dictatorships are one day to emerge with a more liberal outlook. It is surely for this country and all others to keep the spirit of democracy and that protection of the individual alive. We do not do that if, when Mr. Richard Beeston is turned out of Kenya, only a feeble protest is made.
  If we arc to keep alive the things we stand for, if we are to make the world safe for what we stand for, we have to assert our convictions at every opportunity, even if we cannot do anything about it. We have to make our beliefs felt. The only other thing which I am sure we can do—which is much the most important thing—is to strengthen the one community of which we are a part, in which democracy can still grow, in which democracy has great tasks to do in overcoming old nationalisms, in overcoming parochialisms. I mean, of course, the community of Western Europe. I think that hon. Members opposite were frightened of our joining Europe partly because, as one of their advisers once said in a book, some of its Governments were clerical, partly because they thought that it might strengthen capitalism and partly because they feared that it might no leave them free to run their own economy in the way they wanted. Surely, if they have learned anything in the last two months, it is that we are truly interdependent in so many ways.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: My hon. Friend is making an interesting speech which we ought to heed. But I do not think it ought to be on the record that it was only hon. Members on the other side who resisted our joining the Common Market. I want to ask my hon. Friend whether he does not think, after the 12 months which have elapsed since we were prevented from joining by de Gaulle, that the terms of the Treaty of Rome are the terms upon which we ought to go in. Certainly, closer association is
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  desirable, as the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) and my hon. Friend said, but not necessarily under the strict and narrow terms as laid down in the Treaty of Rome.
  Mr. Crawley: I do not think there can be any question again of our trying to enter the Treaty of Rome. I never suggested that. What I was going to say very simply is that it is clear from the division which exists in Western Europe now that there will be an opportunity within the next two or three years of a British initiative. There will be an opportunity for Britain not only to put forward its own ideas on the political organisation of Western Europe, but also of the economic integration of E.F.T.A. and the Common Market. Britain should take the initiative and we should put forward our own ideas for both these new phases in the European development. If we put them forward as British ideas I believe we shall not only carry the people of this country with us but we shall carry the majority of the European countries, too.
  If we do not do it, not only shall we not play the part which we ought to play in the world, but we shall not be setting the example, which particularly the developing countries need, of a democracy which is growing and changing and which is vital. After all, if democracy or even liberal ideas are ever to return to the developing world again it will not be because of money or because of propaganda. It will be because they see a community which they respect and with which they have ties, building a new and better civilisation. That is indeed the greatest contribution which can be made to the new world.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: I agree with the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Crawley) in one thing and one thing only—I think that it is right that we in the House should be very careful to make proper protests when journalists who are pursuing their job properly in other countries, whether Commonwealth countries or non-Commonwealth countries, are expelled. We should protest in the name of freedom, and protest very strongly.
  I am glad to have the support of any hon. Member or right hon. Member

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  opposite on that proposition, because I was once expelled from France as a journalist amid universal approval by hon. Members opposite. I got no support whatever. I am glad to see that they are converted. But I make this point seriously. I think that Her Majesty's Government should have made stronger representations to the Kenya Government about that matter.
  The hon. Member complained that the Prime Minister had not made a statement earlier in the week which could have provided a prelude to the debate. I do not think that this was the kind of negotiation which could have been dealt with in that way. As has been said by many right hon. and hon. Members, no hard-and-fast agreements were reached at Washington, and, therefore, the Prime Minister could not have made a detailed statement at the beginning of the week. It was much better that he should present the whole of his case in its context.
  No one should be misled by the gloss which has been put on the Prime Minister's speech by the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West and, even more, by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). If anybody thinks that the Prime Minister's speech resembled what my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke said it resembled, I hope that he will put that idea right out of his head immediately. Having listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke, I am extremely gratified to know that his finger is not on the trigger, as we should all be blown to pieces very speedily. Roughly the same comment applies to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West.
  The hon. Member found it very mysterious that the Chinese have been so eager to secure nuclear weapons. I find it most reprehensible that they should wish to do so, but I do not find it mysterious. Maybe the Chinese hold the view that the best way for them to be safe in this unsafe world is to have nuclear weapons. Maybe they hold the view that the best way for them to have influence in this unsafe world is to have nuclear weapons. Maybe they think that the best way to exercise their national pride—and they have it, too—is to have nuclear weapons. In that case, they are merely
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  voicing exactly the programme on which the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West fought the election and got into the House.
  It is a fact that the reason why not only the Chinese, but, unfortunately, other nations are trying to secure nuclear weapons is precisely that some of them are foolish enough to agree with the case put by the Leader of the Opposition at the General Election. If we have a British Prime Minister going up and down the country at an election making the central feature of his election campaign the demand that the only way for this country to be safe, to defend herself and to have influence in the world is to have nuclear weapons, then every other country in the world is entitled to say the same.
  One of the reasons—although there are many reasons—why the Leader of the Opposition is disqualified from dealing with these important matters at this critical moment in the history of the world is that during the election he became an advocate of the uttermost proliferation of nuclear weapons, when the major problem facing the world is how we are to stop the spread of nuclear weapons.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I yield to few in admiring the prose of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), whether written or spoken. But surely the essential point is that the Leader of the Opposition was maintaining in his campaign—and before, and, I think, since—that this country possessed a nuclear deterrent. The argument about proliferation is about those who do not possess it and are seeking to get it. We have a deterrent.
  Mr. Foot: The hon. Member speaks for the Leader of the Opposition with great authority. When he came to the House, we were told—I do not know whether rightly or wrongly—that he wrote the speeches of the Leader of the Opposition. No man in our Parliamentary history ever started on a political career beneath so dark a cloud. He has done his best since to rescue himself from this situation.
  But it is no defence. There is to be an election in Germany soon, and it would be possible for Dr. Erhard to campaign in Germany on the same cry which the

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  right hon. Gentleman used in the election. They do not have a nuclear weapon at the moment, but all the arguments which were used by the right hon. Gentleman during the election campaign for saying that we must have nuclear weapons and preserve an independent nuclear deterrent, to preserve our influence in the world, could equally be used by German politicians, by French politicians, by Chinese politicians, and Indian politicians, and by all the nations of the world.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: Every argument which the hon. Gentleman is using against my right hon. Friend could be used against Mr. Johnson, the President of the United States. The Leader of the Opposition and President Johnson are in the same position, because they happen to have nuclear bombs at the moment.
  Mr. Foot: I understand that. There arc two super-nuclear Powers in the world. We are a minor nuclear Power compared with their strength, and if we insisted on the programme which the Leader of the Opposition was advocating at the time of the election, we would encourage, instead of helping to prevent, the spread of nuclear weapons. To conduct a whole election on the cry, which the right hon. Gentleman did, about nuclear weapons was the most irresponsible campaign that has ever been conducted by a British statesman.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: What about the Prime Minister's case?
  Mr. Foot: The Prime Minister's case was different. This Chamber is for debates, so hon. Gentlemen must not complain if I answer the speaker who went before me.
  The Prime Minister said today—and I think that he was right—that there have been a huge number of changes in the world which should provoke and encourage Members on both sides of the House, and politicians in all parts of the world, to reconsider their approach to international affairs. That is a very powerful claim.
  If we look at the world, I think that we should look at some of the notable facts in it. The most notable fact about the nuclear world in which we live is that, according to Mr. Robert McNamara, the United States Secretary of Defence, the United States has overwhelming nuclear
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  power, not merely in comparison with this country, but in comparison with the Soviet Union, and in comparison with the whole of the rest of the world put together.
  That, surely, is the first central fact from which we should start. If it is the case that the United States already possesses overwhelming nuclear power, it seems strange that one of the main propositions of leaders of the Western world is that we must add to that nuclear strength. I do not think that it is necessary to add to it. Indeed, I do not think that it is the main proposition that is put by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. The hon. Member for Derbyshire, West said that the main proposition of the Prime Minister was how we would add to the strength of the deterrent. I do not think that that was his proposition at all.
  The Prime Minister: I made it clear that it is our view that if there is to be an addition to nuclear striking strength through the creation of an Atlantic nuclear force there should be a corresponding reduction in national missile strength in the West so as not to create a further imbalance between East and West nuclear strength.
  Mr. Foot: I am grateful for that interruption, which helps to kill the misrepresentation of the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Crawley rose—
  Mr. Foot: I cannot give way. I have given way half a dozen times already.
  The Prime Minister is not proposing that we should add to that nuclear strength. Some people have been proposing that we should do so, and the idea behind the M.L.F., originally, was that we should add to that nuclear strength, which is the point that I was making. Even if I did not have other objections to it, this seems utterly irrelevant, because it does not deal with the real problems.
  What are the real problems? My right hon. Friend says that we must reconsider some of our attitudes to this question. Included in that reconsideration, we must ask our allies, including the United States of America, to make some reconsideration of their policies. The U.S.A., in my view, should reconsider some of the policies to see where they are leading, whether they can be successful in

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  achieving the objectives which the United States wants, in Vietnam, for example. Does the United States think that it can win the war in Vietnam, or has it come to realise that in this respect, if in few others, President de Gaulle was speaking very wisely when he said that the only solution to the problem was to seek neutralisation.
  There are other matters to be considered. I believe that there has to be reconsideration of the whole attitude towards Communist China. This is part of the answer to what the hon. Gentleman has just said. If we try to exclude a quarter of the human race from its dealing in international affairs, this, at any rate, makes the situation more awkward, and so, on these matters, we are entitled to ask that our allies should reconsider them.
  I am not objecting to the Prime Minister not having raised all these matters and pressed them in his first meeting in Washington, but I hope that he will continue to press them in his further meetings with the United States Government. It would be absurd to demand that in going to Washington to deal with the matters that he had to deal with immediately, he should have pressed the United States to alter its policies on all these other matters. I think that they should be pressed, but I am not complaining that he has not dealt with them all at that conference.
  To take my right hon. Friend's main proposal, I do not believe that hon. Members opposite have examined it sufficiently clearly to see what it is. On the Atlantic nuclear force, as I understand it, my right hon. Friend said that in every part of the proposal for that Atlantic nuclear force provisions are made to ensure, first, that there shall be no proliferation of nuclear weapons inside the Alliance and inside the proposal, and, secondly, to ensure that it shall not inhibit an agreement for non-dissemination outside the Alliance. The whole of this proposal is not merely a proposal for reorganising Western defence, but, even more, it is a proposal for trying to assist the prevention of the spread of nuclear weapons.
  My right hon. Friend said it in his speech before he went to Washington. He said it in his speech at the Labour
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  Party conference at the weekend, and he said it with renewed emphasis today, but in greater detail—that in his opinion the next major step to be achieved in international affairs is a non-dissemination agreement, an agreement to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. That is the objective of the Government, as I understand it to be from all that he has said.
  If all our defence plans are to be made subordinate to that purpose, and if we are to pursue that aim in the meeting which my right hon. Friend has with the leaders in Europe and also in the discussion which I am glad to see that he is to have with the leaders of the Soviet Unnion, and if he is also prepared to press those proposals in response to the latest proposals that we have had from the Polish Government in the last few days—and I am sure that Her Majesty's Government will be eager to make a hopeful response to those proposals—if, in all these negotiations, the Prime Minister makes it the paramount aim of his foreign policy to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, then I believe that he will have a great response throughout the country, and I hope that he will get the response throughout Europe and the world that he deserves.
  Many of us have criticisms to make on detailed items of policy on Vietnam, the Congo and other questions which I could deal with, but which I have not the time to deal with now. But my approach is certainly very different from most hon. Gentlemen who have spoken in the debate. I do not give tuppence about these proposals for defence arrangements, but I am passionately concerned about making sure that the proposals for defence arrangements do not interfere with what is the only real defence for this country.
  There is only one defence for this country above all other countries, and that is general worldwide disarmament. We do not expect that we can get it all at once. Recent events in China and elsewhere have made a non-dissemination treaty the most important item of all. Therefore, I very much hope that my right hon. Friend will pursue the paramount aims which he has outlined with all the determination which he revealed in his speech today, and which he

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  has revealed in earlier speeches and references to this matter.
  At the end of his speech my right hon. Friend said that he would make proposals to the Opposition for talks about defence between the Government and the Opposition, and, presumably, the Leader of the Liberal Party. We are not quite sure what is to be the form of this proposal, but I think that it is an unwise one. I do not think that it assists the process of achieving the ends which my right hon. Friend has described, because the paramount aim of securing a non-dissemination treaty cannot be assisted by a party whose leader is such a passionate advocate of the dissemination of nuclear weapons. The Leader of the Opposition must answer for his responsibilities.
  Sir Cyril Osborne: Nonsense.
  Mr. Foot: It is not nonsense. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has used words to the effect that he is against the spread of nuclear weapons, but in all the speeches that he made in the General Election—and the hon. Member who seeks to interrupts so avidly admits it—he is not opposed to that idea.
  Sir C. Osborne: Who signed the treaty? Try to be fair.
  Mr. Foot: I am being fair. If hon. Members opposite do not like it they will have to put up with it. They should stand up for what they said in their own election speeches. They went up and down the country, on every platform, saying that the only way that we could be safe, and the only real defence that we could have, was by retaining our nuclear weapons.
  People in other lands may believe them; they cannot complain about that. But we have a right to complain, because we say that it is hypocrisy for this country to say that we are doing everything in our power to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons when the main item of the policy of the Opposition is that we should cling on to our nuclear weapons at all costs.
  Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider his suggestion that there should be consultations with the Opposition on this matter—or any other matter. If he wants helpful advice, there are plenty of us on this side of the House
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  to give it. We are prepared to provide not only the government, but the opposition as well. The Tory Opposition have shown themselves to be in such a decrepit state in this Parliament that we are ready to assist in all these matters. Let my right hon. Friend have negotiations with those who understand, as we do, that the only defence for this country is general disarmament.
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thomas: In many ways I am sorry that my task tonight is not merely to answer the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot). Despite the fact that in the middle of his speech there was a certain obscurity about the way in which he was going to reconcile his obviously conflicting views with those expressed today by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the rest of his speech was quite clear. It is clear that he is wholly opposed to Britain having nuclear weapons. He is quite entitled to express passionately the views he did on this subject, but I know that he will agree that he is very much in the minority, not only in this House but in the country. One thing I can say. At least he was, in part of his speech, perfectly clear, which is, I am afraid, more than I can say about his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
  Before I come to the matters which have been discussed in this debate perhaps I may have the pleasure which is always accorded to those who wind up such debates as this of congratulating those hon. Members who have made their maiden speeches, my hon. Friends the Members for Westbury (Mr. Walters) and Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) and the hon. Members for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Jackson) and Preston, South (Mr. Peter Mahon). My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury spoke about Europe, as indeed did many other hon. Members. He stressed that the Government should make the maximum use of existing bridgeheads in Europe, such as E.F.T.A., Western European Union and the Council of Europe, and demonstrate that they have a real interest in Europe and are part of Europe.
  I heartily agree with my hon. Friend. I congratulate him on his speech. He spoke with authority and fluency. He

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  was at one time personal assistant to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) so perhaps that is understandable. The hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough has an obvious knowledge of the Arab world, and he spoke with considerable fluency. I note that he is a barrister, a lecturer and a broadcaster. Therefore, perhaps, one can understand where he gets his fluency. The hon. Gentleman spoke without notes which on the occasion of a maiden speech is something much to be admired.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dorking, who has had a distinguished career overseas, spoke of the need for overseas aid, and I know that all who listen to him paid particular respect to the views he expressed. Lastly, the hon. Member for Preston, South. Perhaps I can tell him how much we on this side of the House appreciated the way in which he spoke about his predecessor, Mr. Alan Green. This is a good indication of the characteristics of the hon. Member and reminds us of the fairness and friendliness which we know so well is exhibited by his brother, the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon). If the hon. Gentleman keeps up that reputation, I have no doubt that he will be as popular in this House as his brother undoubtedly is. I am sure we all congratulate the hon. Members who have made their maiden speeches and look forward to hearing from them again.
  I listened extremely carefully to the Prime Minister's speech. He said, in particular, that he was going to make a definite statement about Her Majesty's Government's position in regard to Atlantic nuclear defence after the Washington talks. I regret to say that much of what the right hon. Gentleman said was delivered very fast and much of what he said was clouded in obscurity. In fact, had the right hon. Gentleman listened to the debate this evening, he would have found that there were great arguments taking place across the Floor as to what exactly he did say. Undoubtedly it would have been much more convenient for the House had the right hon. Gentleman been able to make a statement about the position yesterday. What he said was
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  very complicated and requires very careful examination and study.
  Tomorrow we have another day for this debate and, if they catch Mr. Speaker's eye, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will speak first and my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) will wind up the debate. They will undoubtedly have many searching questions to ask the Prime Minister on what he said today. I do not, therefore, intend to say very much tonight, except that I certainly agreed with the Prime Minister when he talked about the changes that have taken place. Indeed, undoubted changes have taken place in the last decade in the defence pattern —for that matter, in the political pattern —of East-West relations.
  On that basis it is right that the Western Alliance as a whole should be rethinking its strategy. My hon. Friends and I welcome that rethinking. As the Prime Minister acknowledged, we helped to initiate it. It is on the groundwork which we laid that the Government are seeking to gain support for reform and revision of the existing structure.
  As the Prime Minister said, one of the purposes agreed in the Nassau Agreement was the development ultimately of a multilateral N.A.T.O. nuclear force, although I should emphasise that by multilateral in the context of the Agreement, it did not mean mixed-manned. There is no doubt that leaders of the Conservative Party were among the first to grasp that the time had come to make a forward movement towards international developments in the nuclear sphere, and the assigning of our V-bombers to N.A.T.O. was the first step.
  What we also felt, however, was the necessity for a minute examination of all the complexities of control, political as well as military, and for the exercise of extreme patience—rather than allow ourselves to be rushed into hasty and irrevocable decisions.
  The Prime Minister's disclosures today, though obscure in many details, have, in fact, been hasty. They were not fully considered and, unless we are mistaken, they are fraught with risk. There are several questions which I hope the Minister who will reply tonight will answer. It appears from what the Prime

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  Minister said that the irrevocable aspect which he mentioned is not total but qualified. He said that it would be the life line of the Alliance. This is obviously an important matter which needs much further clarification.
  Does the Prime Minister still intend to renegotiate the Nassau Agreement? It so, what does he mean by "renegotiation"? What is the position about paragraph 9 of that Agreement because we have seen reports and read in the newspapers today details of what the Foreign Secretary said in N.A.T.O.? If the reports are to be believed, it appears that the Foreign Secretary said that paragraph 9 had gone. If so, and if it is the intention of the Government to get rid of paragraph 9, I must give notice that hon. Members on this side of the House will very much oppose it.
  My next question was also asked by the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). Is it the Prime Minister's intention that American electronic locks should he built into the British Polaris submarines contributed to a N.A.T.O. nuclear force? This question was posed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), but, as tar as I could understand, it was not answered by the Prime Minister. It was difficult, listening to what the Prime Minister said, to find out exactly what he meant by "control". His comments were far from clear. Does he mean that all the participants would have a veto? If so, how can the force possibly be a credible deterrent?
  Another matter that will need to be cleared up is this. Is it intended that this force shall be within N.A.T.O. or outside N.A.T.O.? If it does not receive the full support of N.A.T.O., is it intended that it shall be extra-N.A.T.O., so that N.A.T.O. itself will deal with conventional weapons and this will be a separate force dealing with the nuclear aspect? If that were so, I think that it would cause considerable scare. I put these questions—more questions will be put tomorrow—but I ask the hon. Gentleman to attach importance to my question about paragraph 9 of the Nassau Agreement.
  One of the matters discussed today by the Prime Minister and by the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis arid Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson)
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  has been disarmament. We are told that the Government place disarmament as a priority in their foreign policy. I am glad that they do so, for so do we—and so have we for many years. General and complete disarmament—and by that I means comprehensive, multilateral, verified disarmament—is a vital goal to which all sane people in today's world inevitably must strive. As I have said before, this is not idealism. In the nuclear climate of today, it is the sanest form of realism.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: Does not my right hon. Friend think that it would be a good thing to have on the record the answer to the charge made by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), who charged that my right hon. Friend encouraged others to take on nuclear bombs? My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition signed the Test Ban Treaty, but the answer should be on the record before the opportunity is allowed to pass.
  Mr. Thomas: I think that everyone understands that what the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) was saying just now was not accurate at all. Everyone who knows my right hon. Friend knows that throughout the time he was Foreign Secretary and throughout the time he was Prime Minister it was one of his major objectives to make progress in disarmament. I did not think that charge worth answering.
  Mr. Michael Foot: If the then Prime Minister's case is as it was during the election, that the only way for this country to be safe and to have influence in the world was to have nuclear weapons and an independent nuclear deterrent, why should not other countries say the same?
  Mr. Thomas: That is not the point. My right hon. Friend very properly felt that by being a nuclear Power we should contribute more than if we were not a nuclear Power towards achieving disarmament, and, in fact, events have proved that to be so.
  I agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton when he said that the subject of disarmament is so serious and so significant that it should not be sullied in the cockpit of party politics. Although I only intervened shortly, the right hon. and learned

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  Gentleman chided me. I submit that I asked a perfectly fair, and not a polemical, question, but I think that I could fairly say to him that although I have no doubt whatsoever about the sincerity of the wish of right hon. and hon. Members opposite to try to achieve progress in disarmament, I must say that I do deprecate their frequent use of disarmament as an instrument for party advantage.
  It was the right hon. and learned Gentleman who brought this matter up. Perhaps I may be allowed to quote what the Prime Minister said in a speech in Belper on, I think, 9th January, when he stated:
  "The Tories have never really taken disarmament seriously."
  Does the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton endorse that statement? Having had many conversations with him on the subject, I am sure that he does not.
  Mr. A. Henderson: I have had many conversations with the right hon. Member and I know how sincere he is in regard to this problem, but I cannot say that of all the members of his party.
  Mr. Thomas: Very well. I will accept that from the right hon. and learned Member. He knows very well that if one were to select members from any party one could make an indictment against them but not against the political party. His own party's manifesto devoted a considerable amount of space to new prospects for peace and relaxation of tensions in the world, but there was no mention whatever of the signing of the Test Ban Treaty. Why was that? Was it not because the leaders of the Labour Party suspected, as now they know, that the prime mover in that success was Mr. Harold Macmillan and that without the pressures he brought to bear the negotiations leading to that Treaty might well have broken down?
  Our activities in the disarmament field were described in the Labour Party manifesto as minor and subordinate. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister appears to say "Yes". Now that the Government have access to the records, now that they can read the papers which have been prepared, the British ideas which were presented and initiatives taken
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  in discussion with our allies, I hope that we shall hear no more about the minor and subordinate role they allege that we played in disarmament.
  The Prime Minister: Apart from the fact that we have been unable to find the disarmament initiative about which the Leader of the Opposition spoke in the election and we still hope that he will tell us where we can find it, will the right hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Peter Thomas) tell us what initiative was taken in the spring by the then Foreign Secretary and how many new ideas there were in that which were not contained in my Belper speech and the memorandum handed to the then Foreign Secretary by my right hon. Friend who is now Foreign Secretary?
  Mr. Thomas: This is incredible. I do not know how the Prime Minister has the gall to ask a question like that when the three main points which he brought before the House today as their priorities for disarmament are as old as the hills in disarmament negotiation. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite are now quite clearly at grips with reality. They know that there are serious obstacles to rapid progress on all aspects of disarmament. There are far-reaching issues of our security which are raised whenever one raises matters of disarmament. Decisions must be weighed with considerable care and deliberately for to take risks and gamble with the nation's security would he criminal folly.
  The Prime Minister referred to the Minister of State whose sole activity will be disarmament. I think he said at a meeting in Brighton the other day that that Minister will be working full-time on initiatives which Britain will be proposing. So far as the appointment of the noble Lord is a gesture to the world of Her Majesty's Government dedication to the cause of disarmament, I certainly welcome it. I certainly wish the noble Lord well, but gestures are not enough and initiatives by themselves are not enough. Experience has shown that success in this field of disarmament can be achieved only by patience, determination. hard and often repetitive work and, above all, tempting though it may be to broadcast novel British initiatives, if we are not to undermine the structure of the Alliance on which the security of the West is based we must move in concert with our allies.

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  I have only a few minutes left and therefore I shall have to cut down considerably what I hoped to say tonight, but I add this about disarmament. I notice that many hon. Members opposite have talked about a break-through. The Labour Party manifesto said:
  "The time is opportune for a new break through in the disarmament negotiations."
  I certainly agree with that. In the last 18 months we have had a partial Test Ban Treaty. We have had an agreement not to place nuclear weapons in outer space. We have had a declaration on the cutback of the production of fissile material. Ever since these agreements, we strove hard to find new areas of agreement.
  What were the propositions we made? First, we made proposals for a comprehensive test ban treaty. That was No. 1 of the proposals the right hon. Gentleman put forwad today. Secondly, we supported the plan of the President of the United States for freezing the production of nuclear delivery vehicles. That was No. 2 of the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman put forward today. Thirdly, we proposed the early physical destruction of some armaments, the bonfire. That was No. 3 in the proposals the right hon. Gentleman referred to this afternoon.
  We put forward other proposals. We put forward proposals for observer posts against surprise attack. We did not hear anything about that today. We put forward proposals for improved verification. Bat, above all, time and time again we strove for an immediate agreement on non-dissemination of nuclear weapons.
  We got much support from the neutrals in the proposals we put forward, but on each proposal we met inflexible objections from the Soviet Union and its allies. We reached agreement on an agenda, which was quite a new move in the disarmament negotiations. We proposed small working groups and committees of experts to study problems more intensively so as to release the plenary session from the burden of time-consuming technicalities. All this shows how determined and anxious we were to effect a break-through during that period. I think that it will be agreed by any fair-minded person that it was certainly no fault of ours that little progress was made during that time.
  These are some questions I want to ask the Prime Minister and the Government. How do the Government propose
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  to make a break-through? For instance, has the Prime Minister responded to the Chinese Prime Minister's message to him proposing a Summit Conference to discuss nuclear disarmament? Did he discuss this matter with the President of the United States? What is the result of this consultation? What is the result of the consultation he said would have with friendly Governments? Are the Government in favour of such a conference? On 26th November, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), the Prime Minister said that he did not consider that the disarmament process could go far without Chinese participation. The same was said today by the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton. Does this mean that the Government have lost faith in the 18-nation disarmament conference? I certainly hope that they have not. I think that it has a great part to play. If they are losing faith and they think that more is required, what alternative do they suggest?
  In the last Foreign Affairs debate on 16th June the Foreign Secretary, Mr. Gordon Walker, then the right hon. Member for Smethwick, showed considerable enthusiasm for a variant of the Gomulka Plan for freezing nuclear weapons in an area of Europe. He said that here was a fair chance of agreement and he welcomed it as a first step to a larger plan. I noticed that this was not mentioned by the Prime Minister today. Are the Government still interested in this? If so, what is their reaction to the suggestion which Mr. Rapacki made in the General Assembly of the United Nations this Monday that there should be a conference between East and West European States, together with Russia and the United States of America, to work out a policy to freeze nuclear weapon levels in Europe? Are the Government in favour of such a conference? They certainly would have been if they had been in Opposition. Or do they think, as we thinks, that the matter could more profitably he discussed in the 18-nation disarmament conference?
  We heard from the Prime Minister today details of proposals for new European collective defence arrangements. What is the Government's view today on the subject of disengagement in Europe, a subject on which they were so enthusiastic in the past? Today we heard from

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  the Prime Minister details of how he expects defence expenditure to be very much higher next year. We therefore take it that the suggestion which he made earlier this year that there should be a freeze of defence expenditure at the 1963–64 figure has now gone.
  I wish to refer only briefly, because of shortage of time, to the major question which has been referred to by practically everyone who has spoken on this aspect of defence in today's debate, namely, non-dissemination. The Prime Minister said that non-proliferation of nuclear weapons was a No. 1 priority for the Government. I agree. This is the most hopeful and most important next stage in the field of collateral agreement. But this is not new. It was a major objective of ours for a long time when we were in government. We pressed hard for an agreement to be reached on the lines of the Irish Resolution of 1961. It was and still is, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, in our interests to get this agreement signed.
  One objection, and only one, has been put forward by the Russians and their allies, and that is the United States proposal for the multilateral force and in particular the participation of Germany in it. That, according to the Russians, was the sole obstacle to agreement. We have heard the same argument put forward by hon. Members in this House. It is not, in fact, a valid objection. It is a purely political objection, and when it is made by the Russians and their allies it is always accompanied on each occasion by a tirade of unfounded accusations against the Republic's intentions and desires to acquire nuclear control and knowledge.
  I have no doubt, and I am sure other hon. Members have no doubt, that the German Government do not wish to acquire nuclear control. Their desire is, for their own security, to acquire the right of co-decision in global strategy. That is why they were interested in the M.L.F. Time and time again we pointed out in the disarmament conference that, accepting the misgivings of the Russians, unfounded though they were, the best course for the Russians was to conclude a non-dissemination agreement immediately. By so doing they would ensure that any
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  M.L.F. or any A.N.F. that might be created by the Western Powers would be in accordance with the agreement. At Geneva I pointed out to the conference that it would be politically impossible for any parliamentary Government to sign an agreement inconsistent with a previously concluded formal agreement on non-dissemination.
  The Prime Minister appears to think that his proposals—and certainly he is supported by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale—will actively contribute to the achievement of a non-dissemination agreement. I cannot understand why he says that. Indeed, I cannot believe that it will. I agree that there will be no proliferation within the membership of the association, but the same can be said of the M.L.F. in particular if provision were made for the nuclear Powers to retain the right of veto. But I fear that Russian objections would still remain. They have, indeed, already expressed their opposition to the proposal which the right hon. Gentleman has put before us. I have no doubt that they will continue to do so while they consider it politically expedient to attack the participation of Germany in any form of collective defence arrangement.
  But whether I am right or wrong, the saddest thing is that the Government, in an attempt to facilitate an agreement on one collateral measure—that is how the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale interprets this—are apparently prepared to deprive us of the main thing that will ensure that we shall have a major voice in negotiations for all disarmament measures in the future, and that is our present position as a nuclear Power. As I said, the Prime Minister's disclosures were obscure in many details. They appear to be hastily reached, and it is possible that they are fraught with difficulties and risks.
  As my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) said, much depends in the debate on the attitude which is expressed by the Government to paragraph 9 of the Nassau Agreement. In this present dangerous world it unhappily remains the fact that the independent control of our deterrent provides the only ultimate defence against nuclear attack or blackmail. It is still equally true that our position as a nuclear Power enormously reinforces Britain's authority and influence on world affairs.

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  If this power were to be surrendered, or if we forfeited our final right of control over it, the threat both to our national security and our influence abroad might well be grim. We on this side of the House will certainly oppose any such surrender.
  9.36 p.m.
  The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Thomson): Like the right hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Peter Thomas), it is first my great pleasure to offer congratulations from the Government Front Bench on the remarkable number of very good maiden speeches which we have heard today. They were speeches from the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Walters), my hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Jackson), the hon. Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) and my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South (Mr. Peter Mahon).
  My heart went out to the hon. Member for Westbury, making his maiden speech as he did at the end of two major Front Bench speeches and to a large audience of departing Members. This was exactly my experience when I made my maiden speech. All I can say to the hon. Member is that he showed no signs of the intimidation which I very much felt on that occasion.
  I should like to congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Brighouse and Spenborough and Preston, South on their speeches. My hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough has the record not only of delivering a fluent maiden speech without any help from notes, but also of having delivered the first maiden speech in which the Middle Kingdom of China figured prominently.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South made a speech which affected the whole House by its sincerity and its desire for peace.
  The hon. Member for Dorking asked that I should convey to the rest of the Government that they should give the strongest possible support to my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development in her efforts. I can certainly give the hon. Member that assurance. I only hope that he will be able to persuade his hon. and right hon. and right hon. Friends to give her the same degree of support. There seemed to me to be some degree of ungallantry
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  in the way in which my right hon. Friend was pressed in the House at Question Time the other day.
  We are at the halfway stage of our two-day debate. Before the debate is ended, it will be looked upon as one of historic importance in the House. What my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has done in his opening speech is to reassert Britain's rôle of constructive leadership in world affairs in new and important ways. The proposals which he described came down to this—a British lead for a better Western system of security and a British lead for an ending of the spread of nuclear weapons.
  This was by itself an answer to the point made latterly by the right hon. Member for Conway, who was asking for indications of the kind of initiative in the general field of disarmament which we were seeking to take. It is widely recognised in circles outside those which normally support this side of the House that the kinds of policies announced by the Prime Minister are those best suited to Britain's rôle in the modern world.
  The Economist, which is not distinguished as a supporter of the Labour Party—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It has shown a remarkable change, as I am about to show, since the Labour Government became imminent and actual—said on 31st October, talking about our approach to the problems of the Atlantic Alliance:
  "What is certain henceforth is that Britain, for the first time for two (or one might say, fifteen) years, is likely to be a major factor in the outcome. If the Labour Government is really determined to strengthen the Atlantic Alliance, it is hard to doubt the result. …The fact that for once there is a choice is a mark of the influence that Britain can gain by the mere prospect of contributing to the collective purposes of the alliance instead of opting out into a pipe-dream of a world after Britain's heart."
  My reply to the right hon. Gentleman, who seemed to claim that the only way for Britain to have a rôle in the world was to maintain independent control of a deterrent, is that all the evidence is that, since my right hon. Friend took charge of the present Administration, Britain, for the first time for years, has been able to engage in a rôle of leadership which it was not able to do under the previous Administration.
  Sir A. V. Harvey rose—
  Mr. Thomson: I am very sorry, but I cannot give way. The right hon. Gentleman took a few extra minutes, and, though, I do not object to that, it does not give me time to give way.
  While the Atlantic Alliance and the other defensive alliances of which we are members contribute to stability and to the maintenance of a military balance, our ultimate aim is to order the world in such a way that the threat of war is eliminated. Our alliances are the beginning rather than the end of British policy. They are the basis from which Her Majesty's Government can work, through the United Nations and in other ways, to build a permanently secure world.
  Our first priority is to go on working for a relaxation of tension in relations between the Western and Communist worlds and to take advantage of the improved atmosphere to find areas of common interest which provide the basis for practical agreements.
  Sir C. Osborne: That is not new.
  Mr. Thomson: I am not suggesting that there is not a great deal of common ground between the two sides of the House on this. I am suggesting that we are being more effective and making the most of present opportunities.
  It is generally accepted by both sides of the House that a situation has been reached in recent years in which the Soviet Union and the West share, in particular, an interest in reducing the danger of war and holding down the cost of the arms race.
  The right hon. Member for Conway and his right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) criticised our appointments of a Minister in charge of disarmament and of a Minister in charge of United Nations affairs as not being particularly helpful contributions, in their view, towards these purposes. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden said that these two Ministers were not usually to be found in this country. This week, the right hon. Gentleman can have the pleasure of listening to my noble Friend Lord Chalfont speak in another place on the subject of disarmament, and next week, if he cares to go along to another place, he will be able to hear my noble Friend Lord Caradon speak about the United Nations.
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  Both my noble Friends, apart from playing a very constructive rôle in the work of the Government in key positions overseas at the United Nations and at the Disarmament Conference, will play their full part as Ministers in the work of Parliament.
  The right hon. Member for Conway has already discussed the points made by the Prime Minister about disarmament, and I think that, in the time available to me, having regard to the fresh points which have been raised during the debate, I should pass on to other matters, and, in particular, to the points raised by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked for information about the Government's attitude to developments in Europe. The Government will work for European co-operation on the widest basis, within the framework of an Atlantic partnership. We attach great importance to E.F.T.A. and will work to strengthen it. We desire increasingly close political and economic co-operation with the Six. What form this may eventually take is impossible to say at this stage. There are many factors involved, but our immediate aim will be to work by all available means to achieve a closer co-ordination of policies.
  Her Majesty's Government wish to participate from the outset, and without commitment, in any discussions among the E.E.C. countries on closer political co-operation. Our approach is constructive and, naturally, we should not try to veto any talks among the Six. But I say to the right hon. Gentleman, who laid proper stress on this matter, that the political unity of Europe is, in our view, a wider concern than simply the concern of the Six, and Britain is a major European Power. It is in the interests of all that the creation of new economic or political barriers in Europe should be avoided. This is why we express a strong desire to take part in any decisions on the political future of Europe.
  Perhaps I ought to say, in connection with this, that we are very conscious of the need to give our partners in Europe and other countries in the world a clear picture of our policies at this stage. When economic conditions are difficult our image in the world at large inevitably suffers. This seems to me to be the

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  precise moment when our information activities overseas become even more important than they usually are, and Her Majesty's Government will give a great deal of emphasis to our information services as one of the instruments of our foreign policy.
  The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden asked for information about the latest situation in Cyprus, and I gladly give it to him. I am glad to tell the House that the cease-fire in Cyprus has been maintained and the island is relatively quiet. We consider that the United Nations force in Cyprus has contributed greatly to the stabilisation of conditions and to the reduction of tension between the two communities. I should like to pay tribute, as I have done on other occasions, to the work of our soldiers playing their part in that United Nations force. Things may be quiet now, but there have been times of great difficulty in the past.
  Her Majesty's Government have informed the United Nations Secretary-General of our willingness to support the extension of the force's mandate for a further period of three months. If the Security Council takes a decision to this effect, and if continued British participation in the force is desired by all the Governments concerned in the same manner as at present, we are prepared to maintain our contingent at its present level of between 1,000 and 1,100 men, and to continue to pay all its expenses. We are also willing to make a further voluntary contribution of 1 million dollars towards the cost of the force, and we hope that other Governments will give comparable financial assistance.
  As regards the formulation of a solution of the problems concerning Cyprus, about which the right hon. Gentleman asked, our position remains as stated to the House by my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary on 24th November and 1st December. We now await the report of the United Nations mediator, Senor Galo Plaza, and we hope that the forthcoming General Assembly debate on Cyprus will result in a constructive resolution.
  The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden and my hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough asked me about the attitude of the Government towards the situation in the Middle
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  East. I should like very briefly to expand the assurance that was given by the Prime Minister in exchanges earlier today. Her Majesty's Government wish to reaffirm the declaration made by the former Prime Minister Mr. Harold Macmillan, on 14th May, 1963, in the course of which he said:
  "Her Majesty's Government are deeply interested in peace and stability in this area and are opposed to the use of force or the threat of force there as elsewhere in the world. … We regard the United Nations as being primarily responsible for the maintenance of peace in the area. If any threat to peace arises, we will consult immediately with the United Nations and will take whatever action we feel may be required."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1963; Vol. 677, c. 142.]
  Mr. Michael Foot: Did my hon. Friend say that the date of that was 1956?
  Mr. Thomson: My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) is perhaps a little hard of hearing. It was seven years after that. I think that we ought to take it as a sign of progress and hope. These changes do occur.
  I want to tell my hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough that Her Majesty's Government very much sympathise with the natural desire of the Arab peoples to be independent and to run their own affairs without outside interference. Equally, we respect the right of independent Arab States to make their own friends where they want. We fully intend, as I have said, to fulfil our commitments to those States which have treaty relations with us. We are at the moment in consultation with the U.A.R. in the hope of improving relations with that country. We much regret that, due to no fault of the present Government, relations during the last eight years between our two countries have not been all that they should be. We sincerely wish to put these relations on a sound and friendly basis not only because we value that for its own sake, but because it will help to reduce tension in the area.
  There are, of course, a number of obstacles. There is the continued hostile propaganda from Cairo Radio, there is subversion directed against the Federation of South Arabia from within the

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  Yemen, and there are some other outstanding questions. There are also doubts, no doubt, on the part of the U.A.R. with regard to particular aspects of the policy of the British Government. We hope to be able to discuss these doubts frankly, to remove suspicions and misunderstandings, and then to overcome the real difficulties one by one. As I have already made clear on other occasions, our desire for friendly relations with the Arab States does not affect our wish to maintain friendly relations with Israel.
  I am sorry that time will not allow me to deal in any detail with all the many points raised by hon. Members who contributed to the debate. I would tell the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden and other hon. Members who raised the question of the Congo that Her Majesty's Government are keeping in the closest possible touch with developments there, not only with a view to safeguarding as far as we can the remaining British lives which are at stake there, but also with a view to doing anything we can to promote conciliation and an end to bloodshed. My right hon. Friend Lord Caradon, at the United Nations, yesterday made a speech in which he did what he could to encourage the Organisation for African Unity in its present efforts to end the bloodshed in the Congo.
  More than one hon. Member has asked why the United Nations itself could not have been more active in this matter. The fact is that the United Nations was forced to leave the Congo because of lack of financial support from the member countries of the United Nations. I think that the tragic events recently in the Congo are the strongest possible proof of the advantages of the United Nations being able to establish for itself some kind of stand-by force which could undertake rescue operations of this kind.
  As the House knows, Her Majesty's Government are very actively pursuing the possibilities of a more effective peace-keeping rôle for the United Nations. This country will be eager to give any assistance which it is felt that the United Nations would want from us. We are investigating closely the possibility of giving logistic support to any possible stand-by force.
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  I come back to where I began, to the view which I expressed that this is a historic debate in which the Prime Minister—although his speech may require a little close study before one comes to final views on it—has lifted our eyes to a new level of possibilities in terms of Britain's rôle in world affairs. What has troubled the British people— I do not say this in any party spirit—and, I think, the people of many countries in the world since the ending of the Second World War, is that revolutionary changes have been taking place in the nature of the international community of which we are members.
  I apologise to the House for ending with what will be a number of platitudes. I take some consolation from a recent remark of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence—who is in Paris today—that politics is largely a matter of choosing the right platitude at the right time.
  I want to express the view that one of the radical changes in the nature of our world is that it has drawn us together and that nearly the whole of mankind are now neighbours in one world community. The whole world is our country now, not in the Utopian sense in which idealists use the phrase, but in the most literal sense. The long-term task which faces us is to move towards some form of world order, of world government, in which we shall be able to adapt our political institutions to match the reality of the changes which have taken place in the international environment in which we all have to live. I do not know whether this can be regarded as a brave new world, but I think that in some very important senses, to which most of us are still adjusting ourselves, it is a brand new world.
  For the first time in the history of mankind—and I am talking about the last decade—major war is no longer a rational instrument of State policy. For the first time in the history of mankind, man has the means of destroying himself. For the first time in the history of mankind, man has the means of liberating himself and emancipating himself from the hunger, poverty and disease which have been the common human lot over many centuries.

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  This is what I mean by saying that it is a new world with new circumstances which we have to face. These are awe-inspiring changes, and it is hardly surprising that we should fumble our way towards adjustments to them. A country like Britain, with its great history and great experience of world affairs, and still great influence, ought to have a very considerable rôle to play in facing these changes. But I think that in some ways our history is a handicap to us. For many generations, if not for centuries, we have been in the first rank of military Powers in the world. It is difficult for us to adjust to a situation in which world war is world suicide and the final fateful decisions about these things are taken in Washington and Moscow and are in the hands of the two super-nuclear Powers.
  This country has also been a worldwide empire, and to surrender that position, however skilfully we have done it, is not an easy task. I do not want to suggest that any quarter of the House has a monopoly of wisdom or foresight in charting the changes which we must accept. But I claim that Labour Governments in British politics since the Second World War have made and are making a decisive contribution to adapting Britain's rôle to the realities of the modern world and to enabling Britain to play the part of constructive leadership to which our influence entitles us. The 1945 Labour Government have gone down in history as the author of the greatest voluntary transformation of Empire into Commonwealth, by its action in giving independence to the Indian sub-Continent. I believe that the 1964 Labour Government could very well earn its place is history for the greatest voluntary transfer of military power to a system of collective security which helps to stabilise peace and to limit the spread of nuclear weapons.
  When Lord Attlee took his historic step in India, the Opposition of the time had many doubts about the wisdom of that step, and yet within a few years Conservative Governments were taking proper pride in giving independence to new nations in Asia and in Africa.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: We spent five years before that Labour Government came in preparing for the independence of India.
  Mr. Thomson: If there had been a Conservative Prime Minister instead of a Labour Prime Minister in 1945, I doubt whether the years of preparation would have been followed by the courageous and decisive active action which was taken at the time.
  In the light of the little bit of history which I have been trying to give, I take the view that whatever the Opposition do at the end of the debate tomorrow, the historic proposals made by the Prime Minister today will before long be accepted by the whole nation as a sensible advance in collective defence and in promoting a more peaceful world.
  Mr. George Lawson (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  ELDERLY PERSONS (CARE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lawson.]
  9.59 p.m.
  Mr. George Wallace: This is my first speech in the House after 15 years' absence. During those 15 years, in my endeavours to get back to this honourable House, I visited many homes in many parts of the country, and it was brought home forcibly to me that there remains a tremendous problem in the need for more care of elderly people. Many hospitals are facing the problem of obtaining accommodation for old people in local health authority or voluntary service homes.
  Unfortunately, adding to this problem are cases where old people are held in hospital after treatment because relatives refuse to take them home and accommodation cannot be secured. I am sorry to have to introduce this point, but it is regrettable and very true.
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Short.]
  Mr. Wallace: The shortage of local authority Part III beds and the consequent delay in transferring patients

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  accepted for admission is resulting not only in people remaining unnecessarily in geriatric units but also in a backlog of patients blocking general medical, surgical and orthopaedic beds.
  There is an obvious lack of co-ordination between the hospital service and the public health service in this matter. Patients in hospitals waiting for admission to old people's homes should be given absolute priority over others. The present division between hospital and public health service in the care of old people should be bridged by bringing such people under the care of one authority, or at least bringing in a greater measure of co-ordination.
  There is an obvious need for more old people's homes to be built. I have the great honour to be the senior Member for the City of Norwich, and in that city new homes are being provided by the city council. They are fine examples of modern design with every need being met, both at Alderman Clarke House and on Heartsease Estate, on the outskirts of the city. In each case bungalows for more active couples are grouped around the home, and assistance is available when required.
  This is indeed an ideal arrangement. These homes are more like modern private hotels, and are a startling contrast to the old institutional concept. It is far better to build homes like this than to go in for expensive conversions of old houses which were not originally intended for the purpose.
  Getting away from the care of old people in local authority homes and hospitals, I think we would all agree that the care of these old people in their own homes is vitally important. Adequate care of old people in their homes saves public money, creates greater happiness, and maintains health. To achieve this—and we fall seriously short today—we must have a greater extension of the home help service, home nursing, and night attendance service, allied to such excellent voluntary services as the meals on wheels service and various social service units. At the moment the standard of service varies greatly throughout the country.
  Amongst the social service units which are growing up today are old people's clubs. They are springing up in great
  528
  numbers, and do a great deal to ease the problem of loneliness. In Norwich we have excellent examples of these clubs. The three main clubs are called M.A.G.N.A. clubs, which is short for Mutual Aid Good Neighbour Association. These clubs were pioneered by Alderman Ruth Hardy of Norwich. They are available for use every day, and are comfortable, warm, and friendly.
  What is more important is that we bear in mind that old people are independent. These clubs are run by the old people themselves, with a membership of 6d. a week. There are fund-raising efforts to provide further funds and also£and this is interesting—a grant of £70 per annum for each club from the Friends of Old People Organisation. An important and very interesting point is that senior schools are being linked to these clubs, thus providing a link between the old and the young.
  Another very interesting voluntary effort which has been started in the city, is called the Friends of Old People Organisation. It was started in 1956 by the then Lord Mayor to provide support for old people's clubs in the city. Employees in various firms in the city provide 1d. per week voluntarily from their wages. There has been a splendid response. Last year it brought in £2,359.
  Starting from that, a new and very interesting development has just commenced, called the V.E.P.s scheme—Visitors to Elderly People. A voluntary corps of visitors each adopts two or three old people for regular visits. At the moment about 180 V.E.P.s visit about 400 elderly people. This organisation is still growing. In this connection, great practical help is being received from the students of the city college, the East Anglia University and many youth clubs in the city. As a result of the success of this scheme a new one is to be started for young people, called Junior Friends of Old People. In both these fields of voluntary organisation there exists complete and valuable co-operation between the city council welfare department, the National Assistance Board and these organisations.
  Another development which is taking place in various parts of the country is the development of Youth Social Service Units. I happen to have a boy's grammar school in my area where a social service

  529
  unit was started by the sixth form, quite spontaneously and without any prompting from the masters. Already this unit helps old people by doing odd jobs, running errands, and providing general friendship. Here at home is a great challenge to youth, which I am sure will receive great response if a national appeal is made by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister. Old people like young people, and a move on these lines, together with a development of the Norwich Friends Scheme, will do a great deal towards easing loneliness in old age.
  In a few words I have tried to outline a great human problem, where voluntary service can and does achieve a great deal. Time does not permit me to give the House many examples and a great deal of the details that I possess, but I can give them to the Minister later. I trust that he will be able to assure the House that the maximum encouragement will he given to such efforts, combined with an increase in the facilities to which I have referred.
  The question before the House at the moment, after the great foreign affairs debate that has taken place, is a homely one. It can be summed up in the question, "Who cares?" I should like to end by reading an extract from a letter which I have received from Alderman Ruth Hardy giving me details of the scheme for M.A.G.N.A. Clubs. She says:
  "The day after the first Club was opened a most unkempt and uncared for man looked hesitantly in the door. I went to him and asked him in and sat with him for tea. He later turned up washed and shaven and asked if he might come in any time. He was admitted as a member. He told me later that when he looked in the club door he had meant to commit suicide that night. He could no longer endure the utter loneliness after his wife's death … and being completely alone in the winter ahead. Not only did he become an active and acceptable member but he married a widow member and lived happily ever after."
  Alderman Hardy concludes by saying:
  "That one case more than compensates for the work put in to establish these clubs."
  That one club is a justification for voluntary effort which can be co-ordinated and encouraged particularly amongst our young people, and no words of mine can add to the appeal that is contained in that extract.
  10.10 p.m.
  Dr. David Kerr: I feel that I am being almost condescending when I compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Wallace) on the thorough-going survey he has given of the problems of elderly people. I wish to draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to one aspect which was highlighted so very well in the account given by my hon. Friend of the elderly gentleman who finished up by marrying the widow and who lived happily, if not for ever after, at least for a considerable time.
  We are speaking of the problem of isolation in ald age, and of so many of the consequential problems which arise. It is particularly difficult to deal with; and I speak as one who is confronted with the problem from time to time in my professional life. By virtue of the fact that elderly people are isolated, they are difficult to discover.
  I have for long harboured the hope that an enterprising local authority, or perhaps even the Government, might introduce a scheme whereby people who retire through ill-health, or who reach the age of 60 or 65, could have their names entered on a register in much the same way as we register births. They would then be available for an initial visit by a representative of the local health authority, preferably a health visitor or a representative of the Old People's Welfare Council, where that exists. In this way, having made contact with the isolated old person, it would be possible to maintain the contact and develop it.
  I hope that my brief intervention will give the Parliamentary Secretary an opportunity to deal with the matter.
  10.12 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Sir Barnett Stross): I welcome the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Wandsworth, Central (Dr. David Kerr). It is the experience of those who have worked in this sphere that there are plenty of people willing to help. The problem is that we have no knowledge of the existence of old and lonely people at the time when there are those available who are ready to help. The experience of my hon. Friend would be very welcome

  531
  indeed and I hope that something will come of it.
  I am sure that the House will join me in welcoming this opportunity to deal, however briefly, with a topic of such interest to all hon. Members. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Wallace) for raising it and for his courtesy in giving me prior notice of some of the points he wished to raise. They are of general importance and I am sure that he will forgive me if I deal with them generally rather than referring to his observations about his own constituency and the great city which he represents.
  I wish to give some prominence to two points which my hon. Friend made. The first need of old people is for a home of their own where they can manage their own affairs and keep contact with their friends and relatives in familiar surroundings of their own. The first object of the services should be to enable them to do this. Secondly, though there are statutory services which make a vital contribution, not all the load can be carried by them and there is a great need for voluntary help.
  What are the stautory services? My hon. Friend has referred to some of them. The home help service is an invaluable aid which has been steadily increasing in recent years. We hope it will go on increasing. In 1963, about 355,000 cases were assisted and, of these, 266,000 were elderly people. The home nursing service supports the general practitioner with visits to the home. Of 840,000 patients nursed in 1963, nearly 450,000 were elderly. Besides these there were supportive visits by health visitors to over 250,000 old people and a great many more by other officers of local authorities on one service or another. More than 5½ million meals are served to old people in their own homes or in clubs, mainly through the agency of the Women's Voluntary Service.
  "Their own homes", for an increasing number of old people, means, as my hon. Friend said, special flatlets and bungalows designed with the needs of old people in mind and provided by housing authorities or housing associations. Often community facilities are provided and these houses and flats are grouped with
  532
  other housing so that the elderly keep in touch with the life around them. This is particularly important. There is a rapidly growing trend to appoint a resident warden who can keep a friendly and watchful eye on old people's needs without intervening in their daily lives.
  My hon. Friend may like some figures to illustrate what is being done. There are 35,000 to 40,000 old people now living in warden-serviced housing. On present plans, the number will rise to about 140,000 over the next five years. We will have constantly in mind ways in which services can be improved and adjusted to meet the needs that further research will reveal.
  It should not be supposed. however, that old age is itself a disability, or that 65 years represents a specific watershed, after which a man loses his capacity for helping himself or helping others. There are too many examples around us, in the House, in particular, for us to fall into error on that score, Indeed, when I recall that my birthday, on Christmas Day, will allow me to reach the age of 65, and that the great playwright Sophocles, wrote his greatest play at the age of 95, I feel extremely young and encouraged.
  It is with those on whom infirmity has fallen earlier than the normal age of retirement and those of much more advanced years with whom our statutory services are most concerned. These are the minority, though their numbers are growing as more people live to a greater age. But there are many more to whom infirmity alone is not the burden. The essential burden is, as my hon. Friend said, isolation or loneliness. These people, too, the statutory services can help, and any visits paid by the members of these services help to maintain social links.
  It would be wrong to overlook the valuable support given by the National Assistance Board officers in the course of their visits to elderly people. For those who can get about or can be brought together by car, there are thousands of clubs and day centres provided by local authorities and various voluntary organisations throughout the country. Where day hospitals are provided there is also an important social element.
  Pre-eminently, however, there is scope here for voluntary service. I was delighted

  533
  to hear my hon. Friend strongly stress the part that voluntary service can play. There are many whose contacts are inadequate, either because they cannot often get about, because they have become infirm or just because they are too timid or shy. Often they are without relatives and sometimes they have outlived their friends.
  Systematic good-neighbourliness can be of immense benefit. Often neighbours can perform small services that make such a difference. To give a small but important example, it can make a crucial difference if someone ensures that an infirm old person is warm by getting in the coal and making up the fire.
  There are, of course, long-established organisations whose object is precisely to help those who need support. It seems invidious to mention only some of these organisations, but the best known are, perhaps, the National Old People's Welfare Council, to which more than 1,000 local committees are affiliated, the Women's Voluntary Service, pre-eminent in meals service, and the British Red Cross Society. However, still more friends are needed, not only for those who plainly have some need which they cannot satisfy themselves but for those who have no special claim to make except that they are lonely and alone.
  My hon. Friend points particularly to the help the young can give and do give to the old. My Department is studying ways in which the much that is already being done can be further stimulated. I do not think it is realised how much is going on unpublicised. Every major local authority has the task of stimulating youth activities and can well act, with local voluntary bodies such as councils of social service, in stimulating the interest of young people in this sphere.
  King George's Jubilee Trust published last year an excellent pamphlet on "Opportunities for Service" which I commend to hon. Members, and other people who are interested. It describes some of the activities carried out, some of them organised by schools, some by youth organisations. A good deal of interest has recently been stimulated by the activities of Task Force 64, whose founder, Mr. Steen, is tapping the exuberant energies of youth clubs in the service of the older citizens.
  534
  All this is welcome evidence, if we needed it, that the overpublicised delinquent or prematurely affluent do not represent the true quality of our young people or their willingness to discipline themselves in the service of others.
  I turn to the second main issue raised by my hon. Friend. When health fails or infirmity prevents the elderly from caring for themselves adequately at home, the hospital and welfare authorities provide—or rather aim to provide—an alternative home. Some 55,000 or 60,000 elderly people are likely to be in hospital at any time—apart from those who are acutely ill—and some 80,000 or 85,000 in welfare homes. There are plans to expand the numbers of places in both as the elderly population grows, and to make good the deficiencies in various areas. These plans will change and develop as time goes on and certainly should have high priority.
  My hon. Friend, however, really draws attention to a problem within the problem. The number of the elderly who survive to greater age—the eighth and ninth decades—is increasing. As it does so, their numbers in hospitals and homes grow disproportionately. A broad band of patients and residents are seen to have similar needs and the hitherto broadly accepted functions of both types of accommodation come into question.
  To some, the answer lies simply in transferring people from one place to another. But this could often be inhumane to those who have learnt to live in an accustomed way and might and could merely lead to deterioration. And to what end? To others, it is simply a matter of transferring the whole responsibility from one body to another. With what prospect of success in the measurable future?
  Nor is my hon. Friend's suggestion of a separate old people's service under a unified management really as attractive as it sounds, for it would tend to divorce the geriatrician from his specialist colleagues, to the detriment both of the doctors and their patients, and the local services for the old from local services in general. If nothing else, economy of staff would be unlikely, and that would be a problem. Clearly both the hospitals and the local authorities are in a real difficulty.

  535
  My Department has been studying the possibility of further guidance which will help to resolve it. There is no easy answer. Whatever help can be given, it is certain that local solutions will have to be found, and not central ones. I stress this, because in many areas I have no doubt the right kind of co-operative relationship is already established, and hospitals and local authorities work their way patiently and conscientiously to a settlement of consistent policies and plans. I know that my hon. Friend appreciates this point. This is needed in all areas—not central intervention.
  Finally, I pick up a point my hon. Friend used in writing to me. It is true, as he said, that many old people stay in hospital until they die. I must add that many also live out their last years in welfare homes. The implication is that they do so alone. Despite the devotion of the staff many must indeed feel friendless.
  I make no apology for saying again that here as well as in the community there is great scope for voluntary help, including youth service. Every hospital has or can have a link with the community through the Leagues of Hospital Friends which can do immense good in this way, besides helping to provide amenities as they always do. Many
  536
  welfare homes now have similarly organised groups of friends linking up with old people's welfare committees. Both kinds of organisation will surely welcome the help of young people who can be just as helpful there. Hospitals and homes also can provide opportunities for the project type of help which may particularly attract young people and enable jobs to be done for the benefit of patients and residents who otherwise have to wait too long.
  I give two examples. A group of school children in the Wirral, with help from a Territorial Army unit and hospital staff, have cleared waste land at a hospital in a series of one-week camps to provide a small park for elderly patients. The second example is that a group of police cadets worked on an access road to an old people's home to enable the old ladies to get out to town more comfortably. I could quote scores of such instances and I know that every hon. Member could also do so. Therefore, I assure the House that my right hon. Friend and I are very much alive to the issues which my hon. Friend has so cogently put before the House tonight and we are grateful to him that he has done so.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes past Ten o'clock.

SCOTLAND
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Preamble
The House met at a quarter past two of the clock, The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Chancellor

VISCOUNT DILHORNE
The Lord Dilhorne, lately Chancellor of Great Britain, having been created Viscount Dilhorne, of Greens Norton in the County of Northampton—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY
The Honourable Evelyn Violet Elizabeth Emmet, having been created Baroness Emmet of Amberley, of Amberley in the County of Sussex for life—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The Viscount Ridley—Took the Oath. The Lord St. Just—Took the Oath.

FUTURE DEVELOPMENT OF SOUTH-EAST ENGLAND
2.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the conclusions of the late Government relating to the future development of South-East England, and embodied in the South-East Study, are accepted by the present Government; and, if not, by what date a statement of their new proposals can be expected.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD RHODES): My Lords, the South-East's potential economic growth must be used for the benefit of the country as a whole, and its problems considered within the framework of national planning. A reexamination of the policies and conclusions on which the previous Govern-
436
ment's White Paper was based has been put in hand. It will clearly be some time before the Government will be ready to announce the results of their review, but action to meet the immediate, pressing needs of the area will not be delayed in the meantime.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, whilst expressing some measure of thanks to the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask, further, whether it is intended that the Local Government Boundary Commission shall visit the South-East at the date we are given to understand they will—namely, the beginning of the New Year? The noble Lord is no doubt aware that, in the South-East Study, as presented by the late Government, some recommendations were made for the very considerable expansion of certain specified towns. Would he not think it a difficult matter to make worthwhile suggestions for the new boundaries of those towns until it is known whether or not they are going to be so expanded?
LORD RHODES: The noble Viscount has raised an interesting point, but I would point out that paragraph 16 of the White Paper, where the consequences of the Government's initial conclusions were mentioned, says:
"Acceptance of the broad objectives will have important implications on policy in a number of related fields".
Those fall into three categories:
"First, the pattern of development in the South-East; second, the problem of employment growth; and, third, the implications for the country as a whole."
I am afraid I cannot give the noble Viscount a definite answer to the first point that he raised, about the visit of the Boundary Commission to the area that he mentioned, but I will see that his remarks are passed on.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what precisely was meant in his original Answer by "the immediate, pressing needs of the area" about which action would be taken?
LORD RHODES: Yes, of course, my Lords. It refers to the housing of the people in London, who are now suffering in consequence of the neglect of many years.
LORD HASTINGS: May I ask the noble Lord whether, by "the neglect of

437
many years", he means the reduction of the shortage of houses in London from 350, 000 in 1951 to 150, 000 in 1964?
LORD RHODES: I meant exactly what I said, because the size of the problem was a big one and the remedy was not adequate.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask what is the nature of the survey which is being carried on? Is it done by Government Departments, or is it proposed to set up another Committee?
LORD RHODES: No, my Lords, it is the officials of the Departments concerned under the leadership of the Department of Economic Affairs.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, although I see the difficulty of giving an answer about the Boundaries Commission, the noble Lord will appreciate that those of us who are concerned in these matters may be put in a position of considerable difficulty. Can we be assured that note will be taken of these difficulties and, possibly, some special instructions given?
LORD RHODES: My Lords, I should not like to commit myself on the question of instructions, but I will certainly commit myself to saying that note will be taken.

BRIDGES ON DISUSED RAILWAYS
2.46 p.m.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take to ensure that bridges and viaducts on disused railway lines are maintained thus preventing them from being a great danger to the public]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN): My right honourable friends the Minister of Transport and the Secretary of State for Scotland will continue to maintain to safe standards those bridges carrying trunk roads over railway lines, disused or otherwise, for which they are responsible.
438
The Railways Board will similarly maintain all bridges or viaducts for which they are responsible for as long as the structures are retained in being.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, but may I ask whether he is aware that there are many miles of hedges, fences and drainage systems on railway property which are not receiving attention, the result of which will be very shortly that the fences and hedges will no longer remain stock-proof, the drainage will become ineffective and the gates will become useless? Moreover, is he aware that it is highly probable that land and crops adjoining railway property where the drainage becomes ineffective will suffer considerable damage? Further, am I right in thinking that the occupiers of land so affected will have a valid claim against British Railways?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the Question is about bridges carrying railways over roads or bridges carrying roads over railways. The matter of fences, drainage and the maintenance of gates is another question entirely; but if the noble Lord will put it down I will answer it.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be more sensible for bridges and viaducts carrying disused railways over roads to be dismantled? Presumably the railways are not going to be used again.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, if that is the best solution, they will be dismantled.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, may I ask whether that is likely to happen?
LORD LINDGREN: Yes, whenever they become dangerous structures.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, is it not true that the negotiations between the County Councils' Association and the Government on this question of whose responsibility are the roads and bridges over railways is one of the very few things that the late Administration left in a somewhat unsatisfactory condition? Would the noble Lord not be performing a great service if he could clear up this matter to the satisfaction of the County Councils' Association?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, Section 100 of the 1959 Act allows the county councils to take over the maintenance of roads on bridges; but the structures which carry the roads are still, unless there are separate negotiations with the local authorities, the responsibility of the Railways Board.

BRITISH RAILWAYS' MANUFACTURING POWERS
2.48 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to reverse the decision of the former Minister of Transport prohibiting British Railways from tendering for the manufacture of equipment for private firms.]
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, the British Railways Board have re-submitted their proposal to tender for the manufacture for their customers of privately-owned railway equipment which is to be used on the nationalised railways in this country. My right honourable friend has approved the proposal. With permission, I will circulate in the Official Report the full terms of the proposal.
Following is the Board's proposal referred to in the above Answer:
"It is quite possible that rail customers may increasingly wish to own their own rolling stock and containers; particularly the latter. The Board are advised that so long as privately-owned railway equipment is manufactured for use on the Board's railway system or on that of any other Board (within the context of Section 1 of the Transport Act, 1962) which has railways, the Board can themselves lawfully tender for the manufacture of that equipment; otherwise they cannot. It is the intention of the Board, therefore, to seek opportunities to tender for the manufacture for their customers of privately-owned railway equipment which is to be used either on British Railways or on the railways of any other Board."
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, am I to understand that this is a complete reversal of the policy of the previous Government?
LORD LINDGREN: Yes, my Lords.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, will the noble Lord be surprised to learn that I regard this matter as a most important one? I am not complaining that such a Statement should be made in reply to a Starred Question, but it may be necessary to raise this matter again on another occasion so as to probe it more deeply. Meanwhile, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government are aware that there is an important sector of manufacturing capacity in the private sector, carrying out most useful export functions, which I understand the Government are anxious to encourage? May I ask whether the grave risk to their export effort has been taken into account?
LORD LINDGREN: Yes, my Lords. Competition will make private industry more competitive.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, may I ask whether the Government have also taken into account that it is as much their duty to preserve employment among those workers engaged in the private sector as in the nationalised sector?
LORD LINDGREN: Yes, my Lords.

CAPITAL GAINS TAX AND LIFE ASSURANCE
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether exemption from the proposed capital gains tax of sums received on maturity or surrender of normal policies of life assurance will include the "with profits" element in such policies.]
LORD RHODES: Yes, my Lords.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I would inform the House that at a suitable moment after 3.30 my noble friend Lord Shackleton will be making a Statement on Incomes Policy.

INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER:)My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to industrial and provident societies, being those enactments as they apply in Great Britain and the Channel Islands with corrections and improvements made under the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act, 1949; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

NATIONAL ASSISTANCE BILL [H.L.]
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to enable the National Assistance Board to take part in certain legal proceedings; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Baroness Summerskill.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

EXPENSE ALLOWANCE FOR PEERS
2.53 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD) rose to move, That this House, having taken note of the Statement made by the Leader of the House on 17th November, 1964, (Hansard, cols. 496-499), approves the proposals, contained therein:

(i) to increase from three to four-and-a-half guineas the limit upon the daily allowance payable to Peers attending sittings of the House or of Committees of the House;

(ii) to replace the existing limit on the allowance for travel by road which is payable to Peers attending the House for the purposes of their parliamentary duties by a limit of fourpence-half-penny per mile.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion stand-
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ing in my name on the Order. Paper. The House will recall that on November 17 I informed your Lordships of the Government's attitude to the Report of the Lawrence Committee on Remuneration of Ministers and Members of Parliament.
I indicated that the Government accepted this Report, but intended to modify certain of the recommendations. They intended, however, to implement those proposals which related to Members of this House, other than Ministers, without modification.
This discussion—and I gather that several noble Lords, including the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, will follow me—will enable another place to take into account your Lordships' views on our own allowances, when they come to make the necessary provision by Resolution, as I understand they have in mind to do on Friday of this week. The House will have an opportunity of discussing the Lawrence Report as a whole when we receive from another place the Ministerial Salaries and Members' Pensions Bill early next year. Therefore, if the House will allow me, I will confine my remarks to-day to the two improvements as detailed in the Motion.
First, I will deal with the daily attendance allowance. Like the noble Lord, Lord Rea, who pointed to the awkwardness of the phrase, I am not particularly in favour of this term, for it can be misconstrued, although it is not easy, perhaps, to point to a better one. The 4½ guineas which the Government recommend is for payment that may be made to Members of this House, other than Ministers and other salaried office holders—for example, the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chairman of Committees and Lords of Appeal in Ordinary—for any expenses certified by them as incurred for the purpose of attending at Sittings of this House or of Committees of this House. Should the payment of a salary to the Leader of the Opposition and Opposition Chief Whip be established, as it well may be by new legislation, these two holders would also be precluded.
The Government, in recommending this increase, do not believe it is necessary to make basic changes in the system governing this allowance, which was established during the period of the late Administration by the Resolution of 1957.
The increased allowance will be payable for all attendances during the present Session of this Parliament, and in this respect your Lordships are being treated similarly with Members of another place, whose increase in pay is being backdated to the beginning of this Session. I trust that this is clear and is acceptable to your Lordships' House.
The Government feel that retired Law Lords who may sit in Judicial Sittings of this House should be entitled to receive the daily expense allowance in respect of those days when they attend a Judicial Sitting. This is not explicitly referred to in this particular Motion, but will be covered by the Resolution which will shortly be before the House of Commons. I would mention that these retired Law Lords undertake these duties without receiving any reward for so doing, other than the repayment of travel expenses, and I am sure the House would agree it is right and proper to make this provision.
I now come to the second proposal, which is to amend what the Lawrence Committee considered to be an unsatisfactory system. I refer to the claims for travelling expenses when Peers attend sittings of the House by motor car. I would emphasise that there is to be no change in the present arrangements for claims by Peers who come by train—namely, that they are entitled to the first-class return rail fare between the nearest station to their residence and London. At present, claims for travel by motor car are restricted to the cost of petrol personally incurred in the use of a private motor car, and these claims are assessed on mileage and the average fuel consumption of the motor car. The total claim for any single journey may not exceed the cost of a first-class rail fare between the station nearest to the permanent residence of the Peer and London.
This is a complicated system, which involves the assessment of the fuel consumption of each car, and it has resulted in criticisms and misunderstandings. The Government have accepted the Committee's view that this should be changed and that the system used should be on the same lines as that adopted in the House of Commons. In future, the allowance for travel by private motor car will be within the limit of 4½d. per
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mile, which is the general rate per mile for first-class rail travel. The Government intend to pay this allowance at a flat rate of 4½ d. per mile, whatever the size of the motor car. This new travel allowance will come into force from midnight on December 18, subject to the passing of the Resolution in another place on that day. My noble friend Lord Shepherd, the Government Chief Whip, who is deeply versed in these matters, will reply to any debate that follows, but I would, if I may, commend this Motion, which I now beg to move.
Moved, That this House, having taken note of the Statement made by the Leader of the House on November 17, 1964, (Hansard, cols 496-499), approves the proposals, contained therein:

(i) to increase from three to four-and-a-half guineas the limit upon the daily allowances payable to Peers attending Sittings of the House or of Committees of the House;

(ii) to replace the existing limit on the allowance for travel by road which is payable to Peers attending the House for the purposes of their Parliamenttary duties by a limit of fourpence-halfpenny per mile.—(The Earl of Longford.)

2.59 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am sure that the House is grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for having explained his Motion and for what he has said. I do not think that I have anything to add, except to ask one question and to make an observation. My question is this. I remember that, when this subject was mentioned earlier on in this Session, my noble friend Lord Jessel asked the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether the allowance for motor cars, which it was proposed to give to your Lordships, was the same as the allowance which civil servants have for their motor cars. I believe he thought there was some difference and that the allowance proposed was rather less. I do not know whether that is so, but, if it is so, I wonder why it is so and whether the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, can tell us why there is a difference between these two allowances. A motor car runs the same, whether it is run by one of your Lordships or by a civil servant, and I

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should like to know whether there is this distinction and, if so, why.
The observation I have to make is this—and this is in no way a criticisms of the figure which has been agreed by the Government, because I think that it was the figure proposed by the Lawrence Committee. I must say that, from the point of view of those of us who are not very good at figures, it strikes me as rather unfortunate that 4½ guineas a day should have been the amount selected. I think it will be difficult to add up and difficult for the Accountant. Having said that for those who sit on these Benches, I believe, we are grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for what he has said.
3.1 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I hope it will not be thought presumptuous for a new Member of your Lordships' House to intervene in this debate to make one point. I think it is most relevant. I know that I am not alone in thinking this way, because the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, perhaps among others, wants to elaborate on it. First of all, although I am so new here, I should like to make it clear that I understand the distinction between remuneration and the recovery of expenses, and that nothing I say concerns remuneration. I appreciate that services here are not remunerated. I am concerned entirely with the question of the amounts for out-of-pocket expenses necessarily incurred.
I think it is strange that we should be asked to approve a system which is so unfair between individuals, depending upon where they may happen to live. This cannot be excused solely by the accident of geography. For instance, a Peer living in or near London and working part or whole time in London or the Home Counties can attend here regularly and be a useful Member of your Lordships' House with a minimum of disturbance to his family life or his work, on which he depends for his livelihood, and with no problem of a second home or lodging, however mean it may be. His out-of-pocket expenses will be small, and on the present system of calculation, even on the three guineas basis, he ought to be able to recover the greater part, if not the whole, of his outgoings.
Contrast this with the circumstances of a Peer living at a distance; and here I
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must declare my interest, but I am sure that other noble Lords are in the same position. To come to London means a complete break with family and business life for several days, and often involves one or even two night journeys on the train. Further, since Parliamentary work must have some continuity if it is to have any real value, a Peer coming from a distance must maintain a second home or some sort of lodging in London. It is impossible to suppose that he can be a useful Member of this House, where, unless he is lucky, there is not even a locker in which he can keep his papers, if he has "to live out of a suitcase" in one hotel bedroom and then in another. And the rent of that lodging will continue whether we are sitting here or not.
Your Lordships will therefore see that, while the Londoner can recover very nearly the whole of his expenses, or the whole of them, those of us who live far away inevitably incur much larger expenses and can, in practice, recover only a small part of them. According to my calculation, a Peer living at a distance will find that he is out-of-pocket by at least £1, 000 a year. If that comes from his taxed income, it is in these days a large slice of anybody's income, and it will be larger still if what we are told is going to happen in the next Budget is put into effect.
Since I have been a Member of your Lordships' House I have taken careful note of those who attend regularly, and, leaving out of account Members of both Front Benches, it is clear that the great majority of Members who attend here regularly live in or near London. Since London is the capital City, it is understandable that what one might call the City-Chelsea axis will be strongly represented here. But wisdom is to be found not only in the territory traversed by the No. 11 bus. Noble Lords who live and work at a distance are with us regularly in only very small numbers. This may be understandable, and maybe it can be explained by the very heavy outlay involved, but it is not a healthy situation.
Surely the Upper House, just as much as another place, should be in touch with people and events in all parts of Great Britain, even if we are not concerned in the same way with constituency boundaries, if we are to fulfil our purpose, and not least to-day when we are continually exhorted by the Government to think

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more in terms of regional government and regional development. People in different parts of these islands do not all think the same as those who live in London and the Home Counties, and surely their views should be heard here just as much as any others.
While I can understand that any system for the recovery of out-of-pocket expenses must be related to attendance in this Chamber, to base it on this factor alone must be unjust. I appreciate the work done by the Lawrence Committee, but, as the noble Earl, Lord Longford, has said, their Report is not Holy Writ, and the few paragraphs referring to your Lordships' House are much less profound than the forty or so earlier pages which refer mainly to another place. This is not a future problem; it is with us now, and we have a chance to solve it if we are not too timid. To leave the system as it is is not only unfair to many Members of your Lordships' House as individuals, but also unfair to our country and its people whom we are here to serve.
3.6 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships for more than a minute or two, but there is here a matter of principle that I want to mention—it is one to which the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, has just drawn attention. I agree entirely with the Resolution and with the way it has been moved by the noble Earl, Lord Longford, and I am not questioning any of these things. What I am questioning is the principle of travelling expenses. Travelling expenses at the moment are covered by the rail fare from the Member's nearest station to London. That is quite all right if Members live near the station. But there are a number of noble Lords and noble Ladies, of whom I am one (I am sure there are many in Scotland who are in the same predicament), who live a long way from the station.
I travel twice a week from Scotland, in the train, as do other noble Lords, to come here, and to get to the station I drive 22 miles. I cannot go by myself in a car; I have to take somebody with me, in order to take the car back, because it is wanted on the farm. Twenty-two miles is a long way, but that journey is nothing like so long as it will be if Dr. Beeching
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does away with our railway, when I shall have to travel 90 miles twice a week to get to a station. He has not done it yet, and I do not know if he will. But I look with some anxiety to the thought of 90 miles twice a week, because 22 miles twice a week is quite a lot. The 22 miles I have to do—and there are other noble Lords who live further away—cannot be included in expenses; it is not part of one's expenses, because travel ends at the railway station, and you begin to count your travel from the railway station to London. I think this lays quite a considerable hardship on those who are very keen to take an active part in the work of your Lordships' House.
I would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that expenses might start from home, because that is where one has to go. If one is left at a railway station 22 miles from home, it is impossible to walk; and if there is no public transport it is necessary to hire a car, or to get someone to pick one up. These are quite expensive items, but they are not chargeable. When the noble Earl the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, are thinking about this question, I should like them to look at this point.
I must declare an interest, because this is my own experience. But I am sure that there are other noble Lords, in Scotland, in Wales, in Northumberland or in Cumberland, such as the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, who have to come a long way to get to the nearest point from which their expenses start. I suggest that our expenses might start from the moment we close our own front door and go out into the cold night air in order to catch the night train. Similarly, we may arrive at our home station at six o'clock in the morning and, of course, have to get home again. These are inconvenient hours, and it is impossible to get public transport. As I say, I should like the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, to give some attention to this matter.
3.10 p.m.
LORD BOWLES: My Lords, may I ask your Lordships' indulgence in asking a question in my maiden speech? On the back of the Peers' travel and general expenses information sheet which I was handed the other day, it is said:
"Claims for incidental expenses, such as taxi fares, are not admissible."

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As stated on page. 42 of the Lawrence Report, Mr. Butler, in moving the Resolution which instituted the allowance, said:
"The claims can, therefore, cover not only subsistence costs—such as hotel charges and meals—but also miscellaneous travelling costs such as taxi fares and bus fares…."—[Official Report, Commons, Vol. 573, col. 231, July 9, 1957.]
In the last paragraph but one the Lawrence Report says:
"Any reasonable calculation at current prices of subsistence costs, i.e. charges for meals and lodgings in London at a standard not extravagant but appropriate to the dignity of the House (to which must be added miscellaneous costs such as taxi and bus fares), will in our judgment show that our recommended figure is a reasonable maximum."
Will my noble friend, when he comes to reply, make clear to me whether, if like the noble Baroness I arrive at King's Cross, I can have a taxi here and include the charge as an incidental expense in my claim?
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, I should like, if I may, to say a few words about something the Lord Privy Seal said which was not included in the Statement made on November 17, 1964, and which is not covered by the terms in the Motion before your Lordships. He told us that the 4½ guineas allowance (which is, I think, intended to cover all those incidental expenses to which the noble Lord, Lord Bowles, referred) would in future apply to retired Law Lords who come up to discharge judicial duties. I should not like to pass from this Motion without saying a word or two of welcome to that proposal. I know, and I know that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor knows, what a valuable part they have played in past years in coming up from the country and, it may be—one does not know—from as remote a place as that in which the noble Lady resides, to serve here judicially for quite a considerable time without any remuneration, and without any payment of expenses. I am glad that the Government have found it possible to make this provision, and it is for those reasons that I am glad to have an opportunity of expressing a welcome to them.
THE EARL OFLONGFORD: I thank the noble Viscount very much.
3.13 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend Lord Inglewood in what he said, and also to declare my own interest as one who lives a good way from London. I should like to ask this question. In Mr. Butler's statement in moving the Resolution on July 9, 1957, he talked about hotel charges, meals, taxi fares and bus fares, but he made no reference whatever to secretarial assistance. I think most noble Lords would agree that those of us who take an active part in the work of this House must have secretarial assistance in order to write our speeches and carry on our correspondence. May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, when he replies, if he can say whether the Lawrence Committee, in raising the attendance fee from 3 guineas to 4½ guineas, were basing the change simply on the categories to which Mr. Butler referred, or whether they were also taking into account the modern requirements of a Peer in regard to the provision of secretarial services if he is to carry out his duties properly?
3.15 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am quite sure that my noble friend the Leader of the House, and the Government, will be very pleased indeed with the welcome that this Motion has received from the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Viscount, Lord Dilhorne. Perhaps I may congratulate the noble Viscount on his new rank within our House.
A number of interesting points have been raised, although quite frankly, they are not new. I have certainly heard the words of the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, and the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, before. The basic difficulty in dealing with this matter still must lie within the construction and Membership of this House. When we had the first expense allowance of 3 guineas it was felt that this should be a figure which would meet the incidental expenses of a Member attending this House for such items as Mr. Butler referred to in his speech of July 9, 1957: meals, taxi fares, bus fares, perhaps the purchase of newspapers, and the like. I do not think it was ever intended, or could possibly have been intended, that an expense allowance should be made available to a Member of your Lordships' House, no matter how

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necessary it might be, for the payment of secretarial assistance, as the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, suggested.
I think we must bear in mind, and perhaps never forget, that we are a non-elected House, although we are an important House. But in view of our membership I think there must be some question as to the sums of money that are made available for us to perform our duties. I do not suggest that no alteration should ever be made. No doubt some alteration will be made in the years to come, but I would suggest that it would have to go alongside reconstruction of our membership. That is, to me, the main difficulty.
I do not think we should increase the amount of money that a Peer could put against, shall we say, his personal income for expenses. I must admit that I tried to do this in my very early days in your Lordships' House. I was rudely asked, and correctly asked, by the Revenue that as I had No 1ncome arising from your Lordships' House, how then could I have an expense? That is equally the position for any person outside your Lordships' House. I would suggest that it would not be practical to suggest that we should make a change or have a new rule to govern your Lordships' House when it would be different for those persons outside the House.
I have a great deal of sympathy with the opinions which have been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, but I am afraid I cannot give him any hope that there can be any change in that respect.
In regard to the speech which was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, may I say that here again we appreciate her difficulty, and that of other noble Lords, and perhaps the increasing difficulties, as she suggested, by the closure of railway lines. I believe that, in her case, instead of having a distance of only fifteen miles between her home and the railway station, she may well face a distance of 60 miles. But here again we have the same difficulty. No doubt there is a bus service available. The noble Lady shakes her head. I was hoping there was, as it would have made my argument a good deal easier.
So far as the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, is concerned, if there was a bus
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service, a train service or a coach service, then I would suggest that the noble Lord would have to use it, because I think it is only right, when we are using public expenditure, that we should use the transport which would involve the most reasonable cost to the Exchequer. But in the case of the noble Lady, we have been able to help her a little by amending our own local rules—if I may use that phrase—so that she will be able, as would any noble Lord, to claim 4½ d. a mile for her car journey from her home to the railway station. This is an improvement. It did not exist before, and that is a stage further.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether that applies if I drive myself, or can I claim the 4½ d. if I have to be driven there and back? This happens at midnight, and they have to meet me at 6 a.m. the next morning; and there is no public transport at all.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am afraid I can only say to the noble Lady that it depends on the distance she goes by car; if she is driven for the distance, or if she has a driver, she can claim only for the distance from her home to the railway station. It could not include the return journey of the car.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: The noble Lord means that the car just has to wait at the railway station? It has to go to the railway station and back. It does not fly back.
LORD SHEPHERD: I expected that I was going to be in difficulties on this matter but I can only tell the noble Lady that this is the position so far as the Treasury have been able to grant: that she can claim for 4½ d. a mile for the mileage from her home to the nearest main-line railway station.
In regard to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Bowles—and I am quite sure the House will not permit the noble Lord to get away with those few words as a maiden speech—I think it is clear that, so far as London is concerned, a Peer should use the cheapest form of transport. Certainly we have a good bus and Underground service and I should not have thought that there was any reason to put a special claim to the Treasury for taxi fares, say, from King's Cross or Euston to Westminster. It is quite clear that it

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has been accepted that any taxi fares we may pay should come out of what will now be our 4½ guineas.
My Lords, in regard to the question which the noble Lord, Lord Carrington put to me, I would tell him that when civil servants choose to use a car instead of public transport on official business they are reimbursed at the public transport rate of 3¼ d. a mile, which is less than the allowance gran: ed to your Lordships. However, a higher rate is available when civil servants—and I think this must be remembered—are obliged to use their cars on official duties. The rate then varies according to the mileage, but it starts at about 7½ d. a mile. I think that that will perhaps answer the noble Lord's question. If a civil servant uses his car voluntarily he receives only 3¼. a mile, but if he is obliged to use his car in the performance of his duty then he gets a higher rate than we in your Lordships' House receive.
I think that I have dealt with all the questions put to me. I will not say that I have been able to be very sympathetic or helpful to noble Lords and Ladies opposite, but I will undertake to give the matter some consideration with my colleagues on the Whips' Committee, which looks into this matter from time to time.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROTECTION FROM EVICTION BILL
3.24 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Mitchison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Lord Merthyr in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Restriction on recovery of possession
1.—(1) Where any premises have been let as a dwelling and on the termination, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, of the tenancy (in this Act referred to as the former tenancy) any of the following persons remains in occupation of the premises or part of them and in residence therein, that is to say,—

(a) the tenant under the former tenancy;

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(b) any person to whom the premises or part thereof have been lawfully sublet as a dwelling;

(c) the widow or widower of any such person as is mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) of this subsection residing with him at his death or, if that person leaves no such widow or widower, any member of his family residing with him at his death;

then, unless the former tenancy is excluded from the operation of this section, the following provisions of this Act shall apply with respect to the recovery of possession of the premises or part.
(6) For the purposes of this Act a person who, whilst employed in agriculture (as defined in section 17 (1) of the Agricultural Wages Act 1948 or section 17 of the Agricultural Wages (Scotland) Act 1949) occupied any premises or part thereof under the terms of his employment shall be deemed to have been a tenant and the expressions "let" and "tenancy" shall be construed accordingly.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, in subsection (1), to add to paragraph (c):
"who at the time of his death has no alternative accommodation; ".
The noble Lord said, I hope that noble Lords will not take it amiss if in moving this first Amendment I say a word or two by way of preliminary before we get down to considering details of our Amendments. Noble Lords will remember, that I had something to say about the fact that this Committee stage would be coming along only two days after the Second Reading, but I should like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, that the Amendments we have put down have been put down in no obstructive sense at all. They have been put down for a constructive purpose.
We do not intend to waste too much breath on debating the Amendments, but we wish to put them clearly and strongly, and we hope that some of them will commend themselves to the Government. There are two, I know, on which they will not agree with us, but we feel that the points raised need thorough discussion in your Lordships' House, and when we have had answers to them from the Government we shall have to decide what to do. But in respect of the others we feel that the Government have an opportunity to accept them, because they have been put down either for clarification or to improve the Bill.
I would just point out to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, that since this Committee stage has been taken earlier than usual, it gives the Government time to accept Amendments, so that they can be considered formally by another place before final approval of the Bill which the Government so much wish to have before Christmas. Therefore, I hope the Government are not going to approach this Committee stage in a purely formal sense, having already made up their mind that it is something to be got over and got rid of, because these Amendments have been put down with the idea of improving the Bill and that they should be accepted. Of such a nature, in fact, is the first Amendment to which I now turn, to discuss it in detail.
In another place one or two Amendments with somewhat the same effect were put down to this particular clause and to subsection (1), which provides that any member of the family residing with the tenant at the time of his death, will automatically be able to claim a right to that tenancy, however short a time that member had been living with the deceased. I believe I am right in saying that in various rent legislation there is a limitation of time: that is to say, a qualification period of six months, under which, if somebody has been residing less than that time in a controlled tenancy, for example, he or she will not be able to claim by right to succeed to that tenancy. By not writing the same provision into this temporary measure one feels that the Government intend perhaps to review that situation when they bring forward their major legislation; but we are not concerned with that at the present moment. Nevertheless, we are concerned very much with what may happen in this interim period, and it seems that by not putting any time limit in or any proviso at all as to the right to succeed to that tenancy in these conditions, some very serious abuses could arise which would be of unnecessary annoyance, not only to perfectly good landlords but also to the courts themselves.
An argument was put forward by the Government in another place that there could be cases of hardship where a relative had genuinely given up his former accommodation and had been living with the deceased for five-and-a-half months previous to his death, and
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then would have nowhere to go, and they asked what we would do about a case like that. Therefore I have deliberately not put a time factor into this Amendment. There was the other leg of the argument about the particular member of the family who could claim the tenancy, because in Clause 2 (2) the courts have to decide, or are able to decide, on certain terms and conditions when the landlord and tenant come before them; therefore it would be necessary to have the court particularise which member of the family could have the tenancy. I have left that out of the reckoning, too, because I do not want to waste the time of the Committee on matters which have been argued so fully in another place.
It seemed to us on this side, when discussing this subject, that we should be meeting the main point made by Government spokesmen in another place by leaving out any time factor but at least making it clear that the person who had moved in to nurse a tenant who eventually died should not be in a position to abuse the particular situation in which he found himself. It seemed reasonable in the case of a person who had alternative accommodation—for example, a niece who had been living with her parents and went to nurse the dying uncle—that she should return home. What reason could there possibly be for her not going back to the parents from whom she came? That is the sort of case we had in mind. I am sure noble Lords can think of others. I do not know whether the wording is good enough or precise enough. I thought of "in possession of", but it seemed to be ambiguous legally, or "having the right to alternative accommodation". We decided to put it in simple language and leave it to noble Lords opposite to improve on it.
It seems wrong that a person who has moved in perhaps only a week before the person dies—perhaps with malice aforethought to get the tenancy, although I do not say that that is necessarily so—should be able to waste the time of the landlord and even the court; because the intention in this situation is that they should not need to go to the court at all. The situation should be clear. I think with this proviso the subsection we are discussing would be

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improved and the intention behind this particular part of the clause would be clearer. Therefore I hope very much that the Government will be able to accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 18, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Hastings.)
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON): May I be allowed to accept with thanks the assurance of the noble Lord that these Amendments have all been carefully considered and are seriously intended to effect improvements in the Bill. I quite appreciate that there are inconveniences of timing in what we are doing, but what we are trying to do is to meet as immediately as we possibly can what we believe to be an emergency, and it is, I think, essential to keep this Bill simple for this purpose. It is only a temporary Bill. I would make it quite clear, as I do now—and I hope not to repeat it too often—that it does not at all follow that because we treat one type of tenancy or one question in one way in this Bill it would be treated in the same way in a Bill intended to have permanent effect and not simply to last one year.
Having said that, I would say that I appreciate on the one hand the intentions behind the noble Lord's Amendment; but on the other hand I must, I am afraid, reject it upon the ground that it is the wrong sort of provision for this kind of Bill to meet the point he has in mind. What we are considering is Clause 1, which is a penal clause and creates a form of crime, and it is necessary, when one is enacting criminal provisions, not only to make them definite but not to put citizens in the position of being unable to know whether they are breaking the law or not. This kind of point is a perfectly proper matter to bring before the county court. It is obviously one of the matters the county court will have to consider. I welcomed—I am sure all noble Lords did—the assurance of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor the other day that there would be expedition—if I may say so with respect, perhaps unusual expedition, but cer-
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tainly expedition, in the hearings of these proceedings.
Turning to this particular clause, I would point out that if this Amendment were accepted a landlord seeking to get possession of a house which he owned—I really ought to call him the owner—would have to consider, among other things, whether or not the relative of the former tenant had or had not alternative accommodation at the time of the tenant's death. If, in fact, the relative had such alternative accommodation, then, this Amendment having been accepted, he could safely and properly evict him without undue violence and without going to the court. If, on the other hand, there was no alternative accommodation, he would be committing a crime and would find himself open to a penalty of £100. You cannot, I suggest, put that kind of thing into a penal provision. The right place for it is among the matters' that have to be considered by the county court, and undoubtedly it would be so considered. But all these other matters laid down in the Bill are matters which a landlord seeking possession could either know or very easily ascertain.
The question of whether a particular member of the family, who might not, in the case the noble Lord was putting to the Committee, have been there very long, had or had not alternative accommodation at the time of the tenant's death is something outside the knowledge of the landlord. He may happen to know, but it would be pure accident. I suggest to noble Lords that you cannot really put this provision into a penal clause, which involves proceedings against a landlord. If in fact you did, you would be putting owners in a position which would be terribly unfair to them, and this ought not to be done.
LORD AIREDALE: Does the Minister think he has really met the point the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, was seeking to make? Supposing a married daughter living in Manchester comes to London to nurse her father in his last lingering illness and he dies, unless there is an Amendment of this kind to this Bill the daughter who ought presumably, upon her father's death to go back to Manchester and resume living with her husband, will get a tenancy to her father's house in London. Is that really the sort

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of situation that the Government wish to create in this Bill? I should have thought it clearly was not, and that an Amendment of this kind really was necessary.
LORD MITCHISON: I hope the Government have no more intent than has the noble Lord to induce married ladies in Manchester to desert their husbands and live in London. It seems to me a rather far-fetched instance, and I say that with respect to the noble Lord. When one is legislating about criminal matters one really cannot try to meet one possible hypothetical case by putting words into the Bill which will have the effect in the average ordinary case of making the owner quite uncertain as to whether or not he is going to commit a crime.
LORD MOLSON: This Amendment is intended to prevent this temporary measure, intended to deal with an emergency as the noble Lord said, from leading to what may be quite large-scale abuse. It would be quite possible for large numbers of members of a family to move in for a short time in order to look after the tenant in the last days of his or her illness, and to attempt to hold over, taking advantage of this Bill. If I understood the noble Lord the Parliamentary Secretary aright, the Government have No 1ntention that this Bill should have that effect. His argument, however, was that he does not think that this is the clause where provision should be made for preventing an abuse of that kind. I am bound to say I think there is great force in his argument. He said it would be a matter for the court to consider under Clause 2 of this Bill. May we have an assurance that, when we come to Clause 2 of the Bill, the noble Lord the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us whether in fact this abuse will be prevented by the wording of that clause, and, if not, whether he will accept an Amendment in order to ensure that this abuse does not arise?
LORD MITCHISON: I think I can answer both questions quite easily. The county court has to consider all the circumstances. This is clearly a relevant circumstance and, if the question arose, it would certainly have to consider it. That is the first answer. Then I was
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asked, will I put in, or cause to be put in, some Amendment to that effect? No. The two cases which have been mentioned about the class of matters that the county court has to have regard to, have been most carefully chosen and put there for that purpose, to call the particular attention of the court to them.
Then there is supposed to be an abuse. I have yet to hear what the abuse is. The only instance I have been given is of the married lady of Manchester who came to attend on her father's last days in London, and then decided to leave her husband and live in London. I said before, and I say again, that I do not think there are sufficient married ladies in Manchester in these circumstances, and who are so disposed, to constitute an abuse. Lastly, the abuse, if there is one, will readily cure itself, because people in that position will find themselves in the county court and will have to pay the costs of being there. I cannot see what is the purpose of putting this kind of provision in a penal clause.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I think this is a convenient moment for the Statement to be made. I therefore beg to move that the House be resumed.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to: House resumed.

POLICY FOR PRICES AND INCOMES
3.44 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to repeat a Statement, made in reply to a Question, which is being made by my right honourable friend the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs in another place, on progress in developing a policy for prices and incomes. The Statement is as follows:
"As the House will be aware, I and my colleagues have been discussing this subject with representatives of the trade unions and of management since the day we came to power. I am glad to say that we have to-day reached agreement on the terms of a joint statement setting out the principles on which a prices and incomes policy should be

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developed and expressing the willingness of the organisations concerned to co-operate with the Government in the task of giving practical effect to the agreed intentions!.
"We shall be meeting together to sign the Statement formally in a few hours' time. I will make copies of the Statement available in the Vote Office later this afternoon"
it will be in your Lordships' Printed Paper Office—
"and will also circulate the text in the Official Report.
"I think that the House will feel with me that: he sense of national purpose and the spirit of mutual confidence reflected in this Agreement are most exciting. This is, of course, only the first step. Hut to have taken that is tremendous and we shall lose no time in entering into the next stage of discussions with trade union and management representatives. To-day's agreement provides the foundation on which a fair and effective policy for prices and incomes can be developed and without which our economy cannot become strong."
Following is the text of the joint statement:

JOINT STATEMENT OF INTENT ON PRODUCTIVITY, PRICES AND INCOMES
The Objectives
The Government's economic objective is to achieve and maintain a rapid increase in output and real incomes combined with full employment. Their social objective is to ensure that the benefits of faster growth are distributed in a way that satisfies the claims of social need and justice. In this way general confidence will be created in the purpose of the national plan and individuals will be willing to make their utmost contribution towards its implementation.
2. Essential conditions for the achievement of these objectives are a strong currency and a healthy balance of payments.
The Economic Situation
3. The economic situation, while potentially strong, is at present extremely unsatisfactory. Drastic temporary measures have been taken to meet a situation in which the balance of payments was in serious deficit, with exports falling behind imports. But these measures can provide only a breathing space.
4. To achieve a more permanent solution, we must improve the balance of payments, encourage exports and sharpen our competitive ability. Our longer-term interests lie in reducing the barriers to international trade. We must take urgent and vigorous action to raise
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productivity throughout industry and commerce, to keep increases in total money incomes in line with increases in real national output and to maintain a stable general price level. Unless we do this we shall have a slower rate of growth and a lower level of employment.
5. We—Government, management and unions—are resolved to take the following action in our respective spheres of responsibility.
The Government
6. The Government will prepare and implement a general plan for economic development, in consultation with both sides of industry through the National Economic Development Council. This will provide for higher investment; for improving our industrial skills; for modernisation of industry; for balanced regional development; for higher exports; and for the largest possible sustained expansion of production and real incomes.
7. Much greater emphasis will be given to increasing productivity. The Government will encourage and develop policies designed to promote technological advance in industry, and to get rid of restrictive practices and prevent the abuse of monopoly power, and so improve efficiency, cut out waste, and reduce excessive prices. More vigorous policies will be pursued designed to facilitate mobility of labour and generally to make more effective use of scarce manpower resources, and to give workers a greater sense of security in the face of economic change. The Government also intend to introduce essential social improvements such as a system of earnings-related benefits, in addition to the improvements in national insurance benefits already announced.
8. The Government will set up machinery to keep a continuous watch on the general movement of prices and of money incomes of all kinds and to carry out the other functions described in paragraph 10 below. They will also use their fiscal powers or other appropriate means to correct any excessive growth in aggregate profits as compared with the growth of total wages and salaries, after allowing for short-term fluctuations.
Management and Unions
9. We, the representatives of the Trades Union Congress, the Federation of British Industries, the British Employers' Confederation, the National Association of British Manufacturers, and the Association of British Chambers of Commerce accept that major objectives of national policy must be:
to ensure that British industry is dynamic and that its prices are competitive; to raise productivity and efficiency so that real national output can increase, and to keep increases in wages, salaries and other forms of incomes in line with this increase; to keep the general level of prices stable.
10. We therefore undertake, on behalf of our members:
to encourage and lead a sustained attack on the obstacles to efficiency, whether on the part of management or of workers, and

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to strive for the adoption of more rigorous standards of performance at all levels; to co-operate with the Government in endeavouring, in the face of practical problems, to give effective shape to the machinery that the Government intend to establish for the following purposes:

(i) to keep under review the general movement of prices and of money incomes of all kinds;

(ii) to examine particular cases in order to advise whether or not the behaviour of prices or of wages, salaries or other money incomes is in the national interest as defined by the Government after consultation with management and unions.

On behalf of the Trades Union Congress

On behalf of H.M. Government

On behalf of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce

(Signed) RICHARD WILLS CHARLES HEY

On behalf of the British Employers' Confederation

(Signed) COLLISON

(Signed) GEORGE BROWN

(Signed) MAURICE LAING

GEORGE WOODCOCK

JAMES CALLAGHAN

GEORGE POLLOCK

DOUGLAS JAY

On behalf of the Federation of British Industries

RAY GUNTER

(signed) PETER RUNGE

NORMAN KIPPING

On behalf of the National Association of British Manufacturers

(Signed) LESLIE JENKINS

HAROLD GRAY

6th December, 1964.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not think it would be useful to discuss this matter until we have seen the joint statement of intent which will be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, and perhaps not until the next stage in the proceedings has been entered upon. I am a little concerned to hear that the Minister of Economic Affairs is in a state of excitement about this. Perhaps it is my Scottish caution which prompts me to hope that he will not get too excited too soon, because excitement is not always the best accompaniment to wisdom in tackling such a difficult and complicated problem as this. In respect to Professor Paish and others, I think most of us are agreed that we ought to do all we can to achieve a reasonable and effective incomes policy. We look forward with great interest to the publication of this statement, and with still more interest to the subsequent discussions between the trade unions and management. Meanwhile, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for repeating the Minister's Statement.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl.
11. We stress that close attention must be paid to easing the difficulties of those affected by changed circumstances in their employment. We therefore support, in principle, the Government's proposals for earnings-related benefits and will examine sympathetically proposals for severance payments.
12. We—Government, management and unions—are confident that by co-operating in a spirit of mutual confidence to give effect to the principles and policies described above, we and those whom we represent will be able to achieve a faster growth of real incomes and generally to promote the economic and social well-being of the country.
Certainly there is some excitement at this, one of the most important stages that is being taken towards strengthening the economy. I hope that some of the excitement may even communicate itself to the other side of the House.

PROTECTION FROM EVICTION BILL
3.47 p.m.
House again in Committee.
LORD HASTINGS: The noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, in his first effort to reply to this Amendment, met my arguments with serious arguments of his own. I quite see the difficulty of putting a landlord in danger of committing a criminal offence, albeit inadvertently, and therefore that he would do better to rely on the judgment of the court. On the other hand, I do not think that any sensible landlord would evict without going to the court unless he was quite sure that the person who had come to live with the deceased tenant shortly before his death had alternative accommodation. Of course this sort of information is known

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pretty well in the countryside; it is perhaps more difficult in towns, and particularly in large cities, to know where people come from and where they go to, and so on. I appreciate the difficulty. On the other hand again, I think that if an Amendment of this sort were to be accepted it would act as rather useful guidance to the county court when such a case came before it.
The noble Lord relied heavily, as did his colleagues in another place, on the fact that the court is to "have regard to all the circumstances". But of course, the generality of the circumstances is rather weakened by the particular instances in paragraphs (a) to (e) which follow thereon, because the court would pay most particular attention to the circumstances listed in Clause 2(4)(a) to (e), and all the other circumstances would tend to come afterwards in the court's consideration. Therefore, I should rather like to see the wording in this Amendment taking its place in this clause of the Bill, or even later on, as a particular circumstance which should be considered, and not left under the general heading of "all the circumstances".
But having said that, I see the force of the argument of the noble Lord. I would only say to him that I am sorry that he was just a little facetious when replying to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, about married women in London. I am sure that what the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, had in mind was that the accommodation the good lady had, in which her father lived, was preferable to that in which she and her husband were living, and they would rather like to move and thus take advantage of the situation. But I think that a serious point was put by the noble Lord, and I hope that Lord Mitchison will treat our arguments seriously from now on. Having said that, I accept the difficulties of the case, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.50 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD LORD ST. OSWALD moved to leave out subsection (6). The noble Lord said: Assuming that this Amendment will be thankfully accepted by the Government, allowing them gracefully to retreat from an untenable position, I ought perhaps to point out that after
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the deletion of subsection (6) in Clause 2 subsection (6) in Clause 1 will also become redundant. One would not guess this from the terminology of the Clause now under discussion—at least I should not have guessed it—because there is no reference in the earlier subsection (5), so far as I can discover, which has anything to do with agriculture. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord Chancellor, if he is going to reply, will be able to explain this to us, because I have not been able to explain it myself.
It is not my intention to speak at any great length to this Amendment which, in the light of our deliberations two days ago, and in particular the clarification given by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, should have a clear run. I start from the assumption, as always, that the hearts of noble Lords opposite are in the right place, even if their heads are permanently airborne during their new-found and temporary condition of euphoria. It would therefore be using up the time of the House unnaturally if I were to rehearse all over again the reasons I gave on Monday for leaving out agricultural tied cottages from the provisions of the Bill, in the general purpose of which the Opposition have co-operated so amiably. What I did on Monday was to demonstrate, by a process of reductio ad absurdum, that there was no conceivable need to include them for the sake of the present tenants of the tied cottages, only for the sake of propaganda and the Socialist image.
Before I had finished presenting full proof of this assertion, the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, with typical generosity, intervened to agree with me, and I was able to draw my Second Reading speech to a fairly brisk conclusion, once that point had been conceded. No Government, I take it, is willing to be seen to be acting for purely Party political reasons, against the interests either of agriculture in general or of individuals in agriculture. I am thinking not only of the smaller farmer but also of the incoming tenant of the cottage and his family, and of the stock which may suffer grievously from lack of immediate care. I am not suggesting—it world be inaccurate and unjust to do so—that noble Lords opposite were leaving their interests out of account. Indeed, they

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were not. The argument was, if I understood it, that the interests of the outgoing tenant to some extent counterbalanced these other, and perhaps more evident interests.
Some reference was even made to cases already known, but these are not only anonymous but completely unstatistical. I venture to say, the hour being still reasonably early, that they are "unstatisticable". Certainly neither the N.F.U. nor the C.L.A. are acquainted with any impressive number of cases. Their existence would in fact be astonishing. Informal machinery has been functioning for many years between N.F.U. branches and branches of the National Union of Agricultural Workers, for the very purpose of resolving such difficulties and preventing such hardship. This is quite right. The proportion of cases where hardship has been caused by the unreasonable attitude of the farmer is so fractional, a fraction of a fraction, that no statistics have been kept by the N.F.U. and certainly no statistics have been presented by the National Union of Agricultural Workers. If the Government cannot justify this action by some sort of case history of the problem, then indeed how can they justify it?
In this context I ought to say to noble Lords opposite that the implication contained in the present measure—this temporary measure, as the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, called it—is self-evidently wounding to farmers in this country. It suggests that there are fanners who would turn out a tenant against his will, together with his family, into the cold before Christmas, which the headlong procedure applied to this Bill is ostensibly out to prevent. I must say, firmly and even sharply, that such an action would be unimaginable to me and, I hope, unimaginable to noble Lords opposite. There is, in fact, in our contention, no reason whatever for including tied cottages under rent control, and no real case has been presented in favour of it. This is something which could reasonably be argued at greater length in the wider legislation to follow. What is abundantly clear is that there can be no possible requirement for this hasty and temporary measure, in its application to agriculture.
It is furthermore clear that the Labour Party itself did not see any such tearing need before the Election. I have here an official Labour Party pamphlet from which I will read an excerpt. The pamphlet is entitled The Tied Cottage: Labour's Solution, and it says:
"Labour will end the injustices of the tied cottage system."
We agree that any injustices should be ended.
"The number of tied cottages and service houses will be reduced. They will be divided into two groups. Houses that must remain 'tied' because of the nature of the tenant's job. And houses that can be 'untied' as it is not necessary for the tenant to live on the job. Where job and house go together, the owner will have to register with the local council. He will have to bring the house up to modern standards, or the council will do the work and recover the cost. Labour believes tied cottage tenants have as much right to a bath, adequate lighting and proper sanitation as any other householder. If a tenant has to leave a tied house because of age, poor health, or through no fault of his own, then the council must find suitable accommodation."
There is nothing in this pamphlet to distinguish tied cottages in agriculture from any other tied cottage.
There is, however—and I am sure noble Lords opposite take a great joy in having their own propaganda quoted to them—something pertinent in another pamphlet, enitled The Britain We Want, a reference to tied cottages in agriculture.
"Labour will remove the fear of eviction hanging over four out of every ten farm workers."
I said that there was no statistic, but I should have thought that noble Lords opposite would prefer to forget that statistic in so far as it is a statistic, for I think they would have a very hard time in substantiating the claim that four out of every ten farm workers lived in lively fear of eviction. If, indeed, that is the case and they can prove it to the House, then of course I will withdraw my remark; but I feel it would be indeed very difficult for them to do so. Noble Lords opposite familiar with those two pamphlets will not, I think, consider the excerpts to be conveniently or unfairly selective from their point of view or selected to suit my case. In the light of this, I cannot see that the Government need feel any embarrassment whatever in accepting the Amendment in the names of my noble friend and myself, in all its simplicity and logic. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 29, leave out subsection (6).—(Lord St. Oswald.)
LORD HASTINGS: I think it might be convenient if I were to continue this discussion before a Government spokesman, whoever it may be, replies. I do not want to rehash old arguments of Monday, but we got into a bit of a tangle, I think, on a rather legal interpretation of a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, which was followed up later by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, about the difficulty of drawing a distinction between tenancies and licences in respect of tied cottages.
I looked up what the Minister of Housing and Local Government said about this in another place, and, of course, as we might expect, the noble and learned Lord was quite right: he had mentioned this aspect of the matter. What the Minister said was:
"The issue is whether agricultural tied cottages should be expressly excluded from the legislation. A number of them are in fact tenancies, and unless we expressly excluded them they would automatically come within the provisions of the Bill."—[Official Report, Commons, Vol. 702 (No. 15), col. 510, November 18, 1964.1
I need not read any further for the moment, but the general impression, from listening to and reading the discussion in another place, was that a a large number of these tenancies exist in regard to our agricultural tied cottages. But I was glad to see that on Monday the noble and learned Lord did say:
"As your Lordships know, some of them are tenancies, but most of them are licences."—[Official Report, Vol. 262 (No. 21), col. 343, December 14, 1964.]
I would say that comparatively few, or even very few, are tenancies. But why should they not be left in the Bill?
Let us consider for a moment the people who live in these agricultural tied cottages. The assumption has been made that they are agricultural workers, but in three cases out of four I would say they are not: they are retired agricultural workers, or their widows. The cottages may be surplus to the requirements of a particular farmer on his farm, and he has let them, at a low rent, to old-age pensioners. I have come across cases of this sort on the estates about
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which I happen to know. Perhaps I should apologise for not having declared an interest: I am, of course, a landowner. I own estates and I am a farmer. Therefore, I do know a little of what I am talking about. These people have proper tenancies, and the farmer has either let to them at a low rent, in which case he clearly has No 1ntention of ever turning them out, or he has let them at a full rent, in which case I say that, if he finds himself in difficulties later on, it is his own fault. Why should not these people be included under the general heading of tenancies? There is no reason at all. They are so few in number; let them be included. We have no objection to it.
Again, considering this point more thoroughly and in detail, how many of these tied cottages which are let as tenancies are not already controlled? How many of the people in them are not statutory tenants? There are precious few cases where the old rateable value was over £30. Therefore, by leaving them in the Bill very few extra ones would be caught; and why should they not? I see no objection to it at all. What has happened is that 80 per cent.—more, probably—of the balance of tied service cottages which are licences only, are going to be brought arbitrarily into the Bill.
The Minister went on to say, in the same paragraph that I quoted a moment ago:
"I can say with perfectly good faith that this Clause 1s not drawn in its present form because of anything to do with the Labour Party programme".
Really, all I can say is "Ha, ha, ha!" Because later on in Committee stage he came out very strongly, saying that action had been promised and it had to be done; and the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, said this twice yesterday. So the Government cannot have it both ways. But I think the argument which says: "It is a terribly difficult legal position. We had to choose.", is really blown sky-high. There was no difficulty at all. The Government could have left these few agricultural tied cottage tenancies in the Bill, and nobody would have objected at all.
If I may, I will refer to the matter of statistics. My noble friend mentioned something about them later on in Second

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Reading. Again, the Minister of Housing and Local Government said:
"I was looking the other day at some figures which we obtained from the union side."—[Official Report, Commons, Vol. 702 (No. 21), col. 1570, November 26, 1964.]
So there are some figures. Are we not going to be told anything about these figures, and told what they are? I should very much hope we are. I do not see why they should be concealed from your Lordships. What are these figures? Between now and major legislation, surely some figures can be produced.
For example, what proportion of evictions from agricultural tied cottages have taken place before the Bill, compared to the total number available; and what proportion of cases will come into the courts between now and the main legislation compared to the total number? I think that would be very interesting to know, and I feel that we should have some figures and some evidence on these matters before the Government launch themselves on a path which is irrevocable and really disastrous for agriculture. I hope we are going to get a decent answer this afternoon, because I think the Government have a very weak case. They did not answer the argument in another place, and they did not answer it on Monday here, and we shall gladly give the noble Lord an opportunity to answer it properly to-day.
LORD MESTON: May I support the Amendment before the noble Lord replies? No one ever seems to get to the point about anything, so far as I can make out. We all know that the care of an animal involves watering, feeding and looking after it in every way. It does not matter whether it is a sheep or a pig or a cow. How can the care of that animal be suspended for 14 or 21 days when an application is made by the landlord to the county court? The care of that animal will not wait for 14 hours, let alone 14 days. I do not mean to be offensive, because I trust that that is not part of my composition, but if any animals are injured or die through lack of care, it will be directly attributable to the Bill as it is at present drafted.
LORD WOLVERTON: I should like to support this Amendment, because I think it is one of paramount importance to the Bill. I do not have to declare
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an interest because I do not own any large estate at all, and I have no tied cottages, but I have served for the last nine years on a county council so I know something about this problem. If cottages of nationalised industries, local government houses for standing joint committees and police houses, in particular, as well as houses for district nurses and for those running the railways and the mines are vital and are excluded from the provisions of this Bill, I should like to ask: why are agricultural houses not excluded? On Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Royle, said that he thought there were probably more tied cottages in nationalised industries than there were in agriculture, and he was disappointed that they had not been brought under the provisions of the Bill. I think they have not been brought under the provisions of the Bill because the Government know that they are vital for running the police forces, the railways, the mines and so on. I do not want to see houses for agriculture brought into the Bill, either, because I think they are absolutely vital.
I know, from my experience, that we have had to build a lot of police houses, and when a police officer retires he has to get out of the house. He is given a reasonable time for that by the police force authorities, and then he has to get alternative accommodation. That is sometimes difficult to find, but they manage to do it. But it strengthens somebody's case if he goes to a local authority and says, "I have to get out of my house. If I do not get out I shall have a court order against me. Will you do your best to rehouse me?". The local authority have a duty to try to rehouse people like that, and sometimes these people have to jump the queue because they would otherwise be homeless. I press Her Majesty's Government to accept this Amendment and bring agriculture into line with the nationalised industries and with local government houses, as, of course, all council houses are excluded under the Bill, too, and I think rightly so. With those few words, I hope that Her Majesty's Government will allow us to have this Amendment.
4.10 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: I venture to think that we might consider rather carefully what the exact point is that this Amendment raises; but, before we do that, may

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I say two things? The first one is slightly out of order, but it is that I hope the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, did not think that I was being frivolous in relation to him or in relation to his hypothetical lady in Manchester. I certainly had no such intention. The next one is as regards these farm animals which are going to die a sad death at the hands of the Government unless the Government accept this Amendment. I would only point out to the noble Lord that a lot depends on the nationality of the farm animal. In Scotland, they have had provisions to this effect since 1550, and the mortality rate among stock in Scotland does not differ much from that in England, so that it does not seem to depend on this difference in legislation.
I turn from that to the particular effect of this Amendment The present position is this: that all former tenants are dealt with in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. Their successors, those tenants who hold over—sub-lessees, and so on—all depend on tenancies for the Bill to bite on them at all. Consequently, we are not considering the question of whether this, that or the other effect of the Bill will follow when there is a tenancy of a farm cottage. There is no doubt whatever that if the person in the cottage is holding over from a tenancy, being the widow or the member of the family who succeeds to a tenancy, or being a sub-lessee from the tenant, this Amendment makes no difference whatever to the position. The only case affected by this Amendment is where the person dealing with the owner succeeds a person who was in law not a tenant but a licensee. That is the only case we are considering.
Now let us see for a minute what the difference between: these two farm workers is in practice. I am not for the moment talking about the legal position: I am talking about the effect of the Bill. Suppose a farm worker occupies a cottage under a tenancy—a tenancy which is to end, as it may end, at the conclusion of his employment there—and then holds over afterwards. In those circumstances, the farmer, the owner, has to go to the court if he wishes to evict that occupier. If, on the other hand, the tenant is not a tenant at all but is a licensee—let us say that his licence was to occupy the cottage during the term of his employment, which is a very similar case to the other—if he holds over at
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the end of his employment, then the farmer can, under the provisions of the Bill if this subSection 1s omitted, turn him out without going to the court, but he must still do so without undue violence and at the risks which were indicated during the course of the Second Reading. If, of course, he has made a mistake as to whether the occupier was in fact a tenant or was merely a licensee, he may find himself again involved in criminal proceedings because he mistook the character of the former occupation.
Now it was said on Second Reading that the protection offered to the occupants of tied cottages was not part of the Labour Party's published programme. I must say that surprised me. I was a Member of another place for a good long time, and I had been a Labour candidate before that. I cannot remember how many years it is since this has been clear Labour Party policy, known, I should have thought, to everybody in the countryside. I sat for a constituency which contained a considerable area of country, and if I said this once in the course of going round at Elections I must have said it scores of times. I therefore turned up the obvious thing to look at entitled British Farms and New Security. This is, I think, the pamphlet which had the widest circulation in the country areas and among people engaged, whether as farmers or as farm servants, in the agricultural industry. There is not the least doubt about it. Paragraph 30—these are all quite short paragraphs saying various things—says:
"… and there must be security of tenure for all."
It has been talking about the position of farmers. It goes on:
"We will ensure that no occupant of a tied cottage is evicted until alternative accommodation has been provided".
Then, in the summary at the end—this time it is No. 11—it says:
"… ensure that no farm worker is evicted from a tied cottage until alternative accommodation is provided".
With great respect to noble Lords, that is perfectly clear. They must—some of them, at any rate—have seen this document if they were at all interested in the last Election; and the same thing has been said time and time again. There is, therefore, absolutely nothing in the point that the promise,

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if made, was not widely circulated. It was widely circulated. The Party of which I am a member no doubt cannot afford as much in election literature and the like as may be afforded by other people concerned in Elections; but whatever we did spend on this matter included statements about agricultural policy, and on this particular point there is not the faintest doubt that that was said and was as widely circulated as we could manage.
Next, it was said that I had invented a point of my own—none the worse for that, incidentally—by saying that there was a very difficult distinction between a licensee and a tenant. That is not true. I looked at the debates below, and saw that the Minister himself, though he put it slightly differently, quite clearly made the same point. It was made on Second Reading.
Having got those two little matters out of the way and tried to say what the point is, may I add that I quite agree with the noble Lord who spoke last that these cases will be few. The trouble about the information available is this. The National Union of Agricultural Workers can give us the cases within their knowledge, but the best estimate the Ministry can give of this is that these are probably somewhere about one-third of the total number of cases. If your Lordships will consider the map of England for a minute, the degree to which agricultural workers are organised in that Union varies very widely locally. They are strongest up where Joseph Arch was heard originally, in Norfolk and that part of the world; and, as one comes down in a line towards the West of England, the extent of oganisation varies. So one knows only the number of cases of eviction which have come to the attention of the Union; and most of them, if not all, will probably be members. But one does not know the other cases; and it may well be that the other cases contain considerable elements of hardship, too.
But, so far as the Union is concerned, and with all the reservations I have made, the figure I was given was about twelve a year. That is about what I should expect. This is simply a number of evictions but, of course, it does not say whether they were evictions of people
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who were tenants and whose tenancy had terminated, whether they were evictions of licensees, what the grounds of the eviction were, whether it was right, whether it was wrong or anything about it that is of very much use. All one can say is that on any showing the number of cases to be affected by this Amendment one way or another is not very large.
On the other hand, having said that, one has to notice another fact. These are cases which attract a very great deal of public attention and a great deal of deep feeling, and I think the Committee will appreciate the reasons for it. They really are obvious. I noticed that the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, who was speaking the other day with great experience—and, if I may be permitted to say so, with great sense—about these matters, took the difficulty of hardship in the case of a stockman. He said that if you let the stockman be turned out the farmer will suffer very great loss. I think the reason he said that was that in Scotland the position is rather different and you could not compare properly the hardship of the cow against the hardship of the family. I am not being frivolous about this cow—it really is a point.
But if that is the position, and if those are the two things that we must compare—the loss to the farmer, on the one hand, and the possibility (I will put it no higher) of the wrongful eviction of a man and his family, on the other—then I wonder which way the Committee's feelings would go. I venture to believe that all of us in your Lordships' House, as in another place, would feel that, after all, we must give first place to the possibility—I put it no higher than that—of wrongful eviction of a man from his home with his family into the road, with the furniture, as the newspaper photographers come along and show us afterwards. At the end of it, this is a human problem.
Now I turn back to the gruesomely legal side of it; and, again, there is really no doubt about this. I disagree with the noble Lord who said just now that we have a strong case to meet. I do not think we have. I will readily say that it was put with great vigour. But when you look into it, it is a poor case indeed. However, I must not say that before the Committee has had an opportunity of

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considering it fully. I think I will take from a quite well-known textbook a couple of sentences. It is better than quoting judges. This is supposed to be the test of distinguishing between a licensee and a tenant; and this is something which has become suddenly of great practical importance; although I must say that it always has been under the Rent Acts. The test is as follows:
"No one can be a tenant unless he has exclusive possession of the premises; but the fact of exclusive possession is not conclusive evidence of intention to grant a tenancy. However, a person who has exclusive possession of the premises is a tenant unless there are special circumstances negativing an intention to create a tenancy."
There then follow references to fourteen reported cases in one footnote; and, speaking with very great respect to the authors of this book and to the judicial decisions from which that test has been arrived at, I think I might be allowed to say that to the ordinary farmer, considering whether he is committing a crime or not, it would be, in the common phrase, "as clear as mud". And, really, that is the point in this case.
The fact of the matter is that in this limited number of cases you are anyway going to include in the Bill the people holding over after a tenancy, the relatives succeeding after a tenancy; and the only question to consider in this Amendment is whether you are going to say that protection from eviction is not to be given to them if there was a licence instead of a tenancy. That is to say, if they were on one side of the singularly lucid line which I have just indicated by reference to this textbook. A farmer's business is to grow crops and to practise agriculture. If he is to be confronted with this kind of question, and is then to be asked to decide whether he will take a certain action—because in one event it will be criminal, and in another not—it really is being very unfair to him. I do not believe the ordinary farmer is ever much likely to be affected by these cases. I do not believe that all farmers, landlords, tenants or agricultural workers are either good or bad; they are a mixture like the rest of us. The number of farmers in practice, who after this will take the risk of trying to turn out a licensee with just the right amount of force, and with sure knowledge that he is a licensee and not a tenant, will be singularly few and
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far between. In fact, the Amendment would muddle what ought to be a simple Bill.
I know that it is easy to say, "Well, what about all the other cases, the caretaker, the schoolmaster and the rest?" Obviously, in practice it is a very much easier distinction to draw: a schoolmaster living in a schoolhouse, a policeman living in a police cottage and the rest. And it might appear to simplify the Bill if some section were omitted. But, in fact, what one would do would be to complicate it, and to complicate it to the confusion of the whole agricultural industry. And where the noble Lords opposite succeed in effecting their object, they would run the very serious risk of preferring some risk to the farmer against the far larger human risk of having a man wrongfully evicted.
I hope that I have not been too confused; I have tried to be quite clear. One ought not in matters of this sort to give expression too much to one's own feelings, but I must say that I regard this as a case where human feelings for a man in relation to his home ought to prevail. I hope the Committee will not think for a minute that I am suggesting that the Amendment has not been put forward from the best of motives and after most careful consideration: I say merely that if one looks into it closely it will not make much difference, because there are not many cases; but if it makes a difference at all, the odds are that it will make a difference the wrong way. Even if I am wrong over that, one would in fact be complicating, instead of simplifying, a Bill which ought to be simple.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Before the noble Lord sits down could he help me out of my confusion? He referred to the care which had been given to the composition of this Bill. Could he, in fact, help me in my confusion over the question of a reference back to subsection (5) in Clause 1? Because it really is meaningless to me at the moment.
LORD MITCHISON: I am not quite certain that we are discussing it at the moment but subject to that all I can say is this. I was given two minutes ago a complete explanation, but I am afraid that I cannot say in which pocket I have put it. When I can find it I will

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gladly tell the noble Lord; although I do not think it is a matter of importance.
4.30 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I think it is a matter of some importance that a Bill should be understandable; but what I have to say is really to express my astonishment, not to the point of being utterly tongue-tied, at the Government's lack of response to this reasonable Amendment which, as I have shown, conflicts in no way at all with the noble Lord's Party's reasonable requirements before the Election. We have never quarrelled with their reasonable requirements or promises. In view of this failure to respond, comparing rather miserably with the spirit of co-operation that we have shown over this Bill, it seems worth putting forward the proposal, academically at this stage, which I deleted from my speech on Monday. Even now, after the noble Lord has fired off such obsolete ammunition as remained—the noble Lord is going to explain something to me?
LORD MITCHISON: I have found it and the answer is that it was a printer's error and that it will be corrected. It was a reference to the wrong subsection.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I am delighted to hear that it was no more than that. I was saying that, after the noble Lord has fired off such obsolete ammunition as there remained in his store, provided by the nimble powder monkeys of Transport House, we still do not know what are the cases on which they base this tear-away action. The noble Lord appears to have leaned his case rather unsteadily on "the others which are not known about." I must say that I would hesitate to rest a case against so flimsy a structure. He mentioned to my noble friend twelve cases a year, but with his normal honesty and open-mindedness he said he did not know how many of the twelve cases, in approximation, were in fact the result of an unreasonable landlord. They were evictions and he did not know whether or not after eviction the tenants had nowhere to go. If I am misquoting or misunderstanding the noble Lord, then I am sure he will let me know, but that is what I understood him to say.
LORD MITCHISON: I am obliged to the noble Lord. I was asked a question by his noble friend: how many of these cases were there in a year? I explained that it was really impossible to say, but there were indications that the number was small. I can assure the noble Lord that these hypothetical powder monkeys know no more about this than I do. We cannot say, and I think that, if the noble Lord thinks it over, he will see why we cannot say.
LORD ST. OSWALD: There requires to be something better and stronger to lean the noble Lord's case against than twelve evictions a year, the exact circumstances and the outcome of which are not known, though perhaps in the noble Lord's mind there are a lot of others. It seems to me very, very flimsy. The noble Lord's task in this Bill is the protection from eviction—and, I take it, protection where hardship or injustice is entailed. That is his central purpose. We have shown how willing we are to assist him in this task, where injustice is concerned or where the balance of hardship is unacceptable; by that I mean in cases where the hardship caused to the outgoing tenant is not balanced or outweighed by the hardship of the incoming tenant and his family, the farmer himself—I mean occupant; the noble Lord is quite correct and I am grateful for the correction—hardship to the incoming occupant and his family, to the farmer himself or to the animals on the farm. But, in his reply just now, the noble Lord—I know that he may have thought it was implied in what he said—made no reference to these factors and showed (I do not want to be unfair) No 1nterest, though he must feel it, in the equity of this matter.
I am also here for the protection of agriculture and, as I implied on Monday, the Government do not appear to me to be showing full concern for this. On that occasion, the noble Earl the Leader of the House asserted—I am naturally happy to repeat it—that agriculture had never been so strongly represented in this House as at that moment. I was not sufficiently pedantic to point out that at that particular moment, wherever the noble Lord, Lord Champion, was, he was not in the Chamber. Moreover, in his assertion, the noble Earl's political memory clearly went

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back only over the two immediately previous years, and this was somewhat surprising since, in other respects, the political memory of his Party seems to have stopped dead somewhere in the 1920's. Noble Lords opposite must be aware that it was noticeable and noticed that during the whole process of the Bill in another place no Agricultural Minister took part and even their appearances during the debate were of the most fleeting nature. This is not the way to give confidence to agriculture.
Again, although the noble Lord is quite entitled to brush aside a little drafting error, the fact is that this drafting error has been there for some days suggests to me that no noble Lord opposite had read the Bill or that part of the Bill. I suggest that this would not have been possible if an Agricultural Minister in the Department had been responsible for agriculture on the Government Front Bench. Great as is the ability of the noble Lord, Lord Champion, overwhelming as is his charm, the fact is that he is not in the Department and has not the time to do these things. However, I am leaving it.
To-day, the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, said that the farmer's job was to grow crops. He did not mention—I am not being intentionally pedantic—the feeding of animals, about which the noble Lord, Lord Meston, was particularly concerned.
LORD MITCHISON: I said it was the farmers' job to practise agriculture.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Yes, which includes animal husbandry. This served to confirm, if any confirmation was necessary, that the noble Lord's heart was in the right place and that he hoped with this measure to prevent abuses and not create them. In that case, it would have seemed infinitely more sensible, even making allowances for the Government's need to satisfy some of the elements among their supporters, to tie this form of extra protection to farm workers being evicted to make way for non-agricultural workers. I was hoping, in the light of our discussions on Monday, that they might think of doing something like that. It would have meant drafting of which only a Government Department is capable. One of the noble Lord's honourable friends in another place
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stated, or strongly implied, that there were many such cases, where an agricultural worker was evicted from his house in order to make way for a stockbroker. I think, personally, that it would be hard to find them, but, if there are such cases, then they certainly are not assisting in agriculture, and we hold no brief whatever for them in this argument.
It was my intention on Monday to put forward to the Government an Amendment somewhat along these lines. I mention it purely academically now, but perhaps they might like to study it as a means of seeing how they could have approached this question:
Page 2, line 29, leave out from "shall" to "accordingly" on line 31, and insert—
"only be deemed to have been a tenant and the expressions 'let' and 'tenancy' shall only be construed accordingly if the court is satisfied that the owner intends to permit a person not employed in agriculture and not under the terms of his employment to be the next occupant of said premises or part thereof."
I do not expect the noble Lord to digest that now, and certainly it is too late for him to do much about it, but perhaps he will be good enough to read it afterwards in the Record of to-day's proceedings and see how much fairer it would have been if the Government had said something like that. Due to the headlong pace at which this measure was, and is, being pushed through, as my noble friend stated earlier, the Government are the only people who could have done this, but they did not do so. It was the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, in his intervention, who put that proposal out of court by voluntarily wrapping up the whole reason for this measure in the envelope of doctrinaire Socialism. He said: "We said we would do it, and we did it, and we did not need any more reason than that"; in fact, as my noble friend Lord Conesford echoed in yesterday's debate, "We are the Government now!".
LORD MITCHISON: May I just ask the noble Lord this question? Do I understand from him that carrying out Election promises is doctrinaire Socialism? It is an interesting view.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I think the noble Lord was present when I uninhibitedly, but unintentionally, also broke into what proved to be the peroration of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor,

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to say that his Party, even in their wildest moments, did not undertake to do everything that any of them had ever said they would do and to do it all before Christmas without suitable time for debate. I am sorry to quote myself but this is the point I was making.
The narrowness of this purpose and the lack of any other requirement were underlined in neat and distinguished manner by the Lord Chancellor in one of his patient replies to an interjection from me. I had asked him to clarify whether one of his statements implied that some of his colleagues had at some time been evicted from a tied cotage. He replied that this was almost inconceivable, since the National Union of Agricultural Workers would have prevented it. It is unthinkable that he was suggesting that the National Union of Agricultural Workers would press a case, not on its merits, but on the political importance of the individual involved. What he must have meant was that in any case of genuine hardship and injustice the National Union of Agricultural Workers are able effectively to intervene.
The case for this Amendment rests securely on the noble and learned Lord's own confidence in the National Union of Agricultural Workers, as well as the good sense and humanity of farmers. The Government, it seems to me, have not a leg to stand on; and even if they had, there would be nowhere to put it, since the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has cut the ground from under their feet. If the noble Lord opposite opposes this Amendment, and continues to oppose it, as he has said, he will be withdrawing the confidence in the National Union of Agricultural Workers which was expressed by his noble and learned friend. If he wishes to do that—and I do not imagine he will—then he must do it; and if he threatens us with holding up the entire Bill, in which we know and have said there are good elements, then he will be putting a particularly clumsy blunderbuss at our heads. But we shall signify our disagreement without, we hope, doing too much harm to the Bill.
LORD CARRINGTON: I wonder whether I might intervene for one moment. It is entirely for my noble friends who put down the Amendment
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to decide what they are going to do on this occasion. But I have listened to the debate, and I hope I might be forgiven if I express a point of view which is not dissimilar from that of my noble friend behind me, but perhaps slightly less ebullient. I must confess that all of us on both sides know pretty well how we feel about this problem of the tied cottage, because it has been argued over the years. I must also say that I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, that it does not come as much of a surprise to me to know that the Labour Government would like to do away with the agricultural tied cottage. We have known this for a long time now. But I think it is worth recording that when the Labour Party were in office for some six years they did not do it. I think this has some bearing on the matter. Nevertheless, it does not surprise me that they want to do away with them.
What my noble friends and I feel is that perhaps this is not the right moment to try to do it in this Bill, which was put before Parliament for a rather different purpose. We feel that, in a way, this is being done by the back door, without quite that discussion and full consultation which we might have hoped would take place, either with Parliament or with the National Farmers' Union. Nevertheless, the positions of both Parties are well known. It is also fair to say that cases of hardship can occur on both sides. Nobody on either side would want to see a man harshly evicted from his house; it would be the last thing that we should want. But certainly the last thing that we should want, also, is to see a farmer put to great personal hardship by reason of his inability to keep a house which he allowed a stockman to use while he was in employment as stockman. So there really is great difficulty in all this.
I think, on the whole, we on this side come down on a different side from noble Lords opposite. But, as we have been told this afternoon, this is a matter in which there are very few cases—twelve or something like that number are known every year. This is an argument which cuts both ways. Some may use it in favour of the Government's proposal, and it may also be used in favour of the views of the Opposition.

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But the fact is that this is a comparatively small issue.
The thing that worries me is not so much this proposal—and I do not approve of it—as the statement which the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, read out in the course of his reply. What worries me is what will be in the substantive Bill rather than what is in this Bill, because, as I understand it—and I think I am right—this Bill is designed to last for only a few months, and in a few months' time we shall get from noble Lords opposite a Bill in which their final proposals are there for all of us to see. I very much hope that final Bill will not reflect the words which the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, read out, because what he said in effect was that no farmer could get possession of a cottage until alternative accommodation had been found for the occupant of the cottage. Of course, this is not proposed at the moment.
This seems to be Holy Writ, as I understand it, on the forty questions in answer to the Labour Party's agricultural policy. I hope, however, that this is not Holy Writ, because if this is proposed, I am sure my noble friends and I would find it impossible to accept it, and we should have to take action accordingly. But I personally would advise my noble friends on this occasion, having made their protest, not to press the matter further today, but rather to hope that the arguments we have used—and we feel that some of them are good and important arguments—will be studied carefully by noble Lords opposite, and also that we may have a chance of seeing how the operation of this Act, when it becomes law, works; and we hope that the hardship on either side will be as little as possible. I would advise my noble friends behind me—although they may not wish to withdraw the Amendment—that on this occasion we should reserve our fire until we see the substantive proposals which the Government intend to put forward, and not waste our ammunition on what is, after all, a Bill to last only a few months.
4.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I should like to make one point in regard to eviction in Scotland. I understood the Minister to imply that we had nothing to get hot under the collar about
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in England regarding this Bill as it applies to tied cottages, as in Scotland, since the 16th century, owners have not been able to evict without going to the court. I have tied cottages both in England and in Scotland. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, knows that in Scotland we have been able to go to court far more quickly than can be done in England. I have never personally evicted anyone in Scotland, and I hope that I never shall do so. But I just want to make that point.
I am rather at a disadvantage here, because I saw these Amendments only just before I came into the Chamber. But if it is possible to go to the court in England as quickly as has been possible in Scotland there probably would not be any great objection to the inclusion of tied cottages in this Bill. I do not know whether that is going to be possible. From my point of view, I can foresee some rogue applying for a job as an agricultural worker, arriving in your house on Monday, telling you to "go to hell" on Tuesday, and going off a few miles away to a factory where he is paid better. He will then be in your house for three or four months rent and rate free. Probably there would be extremely few cases like that, but I think it is a danger. I have some practical experience in this matter.
I will not speak any longer on this question, as I have not had time to read Hansard. I have read the Bill, but I have not had time to study fully the whole question. Of course, it is a technical Bill. I would certainly support the Amendment, because I do not know whether it will be possible to go to the court quickly.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): Before my noble friend replies to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, may I answer a point raised by the noble Viscount? This was discussed to some extent on Second Reading. I pointed out then, and informed the House, that special arrangements would be made by me for the early hearing of any urgent case. First, any urgent undefended cases could be heard by a registrar, apart from a judge, as the Bill provides. Secondly, a case may be transferred to another court; and, thirdly, as soon as it was ready it would be put into the next day's list, at the head of the list, what-

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ever was there already. So in any case of urgency it should be possible for a case to be heard in approximately fourteen days.
Perhaps your Lordships would allow me to add this comment, in reference to what the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, said. Your Lordships may remember that he said that proceedings in Scotland are very slow. He gave an example from a letter from his solicitors that it may take three months in Scotland. I said that this surprised me very much, because in another place Scotland had been held out, from the point of view of expedition, as an example to us in England. I have since made inquiries, and I am told that there are two forms of proceedings in Scotland. There is the ordinary defended action, which may take a little time to be heard, but in a simple eviction case—what is called an action for summary removal, where the period of notice is only two days—the case comes up on the next court day thereafter. In a rural sheriffdom it might cause a delay of a further seven days, but nine days should be the outside period.
The noble Viscount perhaps omitted to emphasise that this is not an Amendment to exclude agricultural tied cottages from the Bill, because the Bill applies to all tenancies that are not excluded. So it is conceded by the movers of the Amendment that the Bill ought to apply to some tied cottages, though it is sought to exclude those cases which, technically, are licences and not tenancies. That is all it does, whereas, rightly or wrongly, the Government are saying, as the Minister said below, that this is a very delicate and difficult borderline, and it would be silly to indulge in this in a measure that was intended to last for only a few years.
The sole point in issue is whether the landlord is to be allowed to use force. Your Lordships may remember the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Meston. As my noble friend has already said, in Scotland the landlord has not been able to use force to get a tenant out since 1550, and that situation seems to work all right. All that those who are supporting the Amendment are fighting for is the right of a landlord to use force in evicting a holder of a tied cottage if it is a licence and not a tenancy, whereas the Bill would provide that, like
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everybody else when they are having a dispute, the landlord should have to go to the court.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I thank the noble Lord.
LORD MITCHISON: May I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for what he said? I say that, because I think that, so far as this Bill is concerned, very few cases will be affected. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has put the substantial point more succinctly and better than I could have done, and that is all there is to it. It is a very small matter indeed, but I should like to confirm that we do not regard this Bill as prejudicing, or affecting in any way, permanent legislation on this matter. This is a Bill to protect people from eviction in certain cases; to compel owners to go to the county court, instead of trying to strike this nice balance between the amount of force that may be used and the amount of force that the landlord must not use on his own, in what I believe is called "self-help". We do not want amateur Rachmans about, and people do not intend to be amateur Rachmans. It is much better that they should go to the court in these cases, and therefore I should like, so far as it falls upon me, to accept an olive branch with the more enthusiasm because it was put with such reason and force.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
4.57 p.m.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL moved, after subsection (7), to insert:
" ( ) for the purpose of this section the expression 'premises' shall not include a caravan as defined by section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Developments Act 1960, or, ".
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to clarify the Bill and to make it simpler. During the passage of the Bill in another place, the Government spokesman admitted that, in so far as caravans are concerned, the position is confused. The Government spokesman then went on to say that he was sure that the Government would be grateful for any advice in considering the best way of tackling the matter. He further explained that Her Majesty's Government would certainly continue to look at the problem, but that they could give no undertaking that anything could be done in this Bill.
He concluded by stating that the matter was certainly for consideration in the longer term.
I am now taking this opportunity of giving that advice to the Government which they said they would be grateful to receive. The time, however, in which to consider how best to give advice to the Government has been very short indeed, as your Lordships know, and there has been little opportunity to consider the confused situation 10 which reference was made in another place because of the rather rapid way in which this legislation, for well-known reasons, is being rushed along. As your Lordships know, we had the Second Reading of the Bill only on Monday. I put my Amendment down yesterday and, at the same time, did my best to explain privately to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, what I was proposing in my Amendment and why I was proposing it. I thought that this was the best way in which to try to get on with the Bill as quickly as possible.
This Amendment is not meant to be a wrecking Amendment or, indeed, anything but a constructive attempt to make the Bill more workable and simpler. I am sure your Lordships will agree that it is quite wrong that legislation should be enacted which is confused and uncertain, and that is what this Bill is at the present time in so far as caravans are affected. Such uncertainty is an open invitation to litigation. At present, it is not known whether caravans are included in this Bill or excluded from it.
It will be within the knowledge of your Lordships that the Rent Acts do not apply to caravans. On the other hand, caravans do come within the terms of the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Act. Confusion arises over the definition of words such as "premises" and "dwellings". The wording in the Rent Acts and the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Act differs from the wording in this Bill. It may help your Lordships to appreciate the confusion that exists if I explain that the definition of a caravan in the 1960 Act referred to in my Amendment is as follows:
" … 'caravan' means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted, … "
I am sure that Her Majesty's Government will agree that it is not fair to site owners and those who own or let a caravan to be faced with legislation which is as uncertain as is this Bill. These people do not know whether or not they come within the terms of the Bill. If they take certain action they do not know whether it is or it is not criminal action. It surely is quite wrong that legislation should leave this House in such a confused and uncertain state, and that people should be placed in such a position. We are not just dealing with a possible few hundred cases. At the present time there are, I believe, between 70, 000 and 80, 000 caravans used as permanent residential dwellings and hundreds of thousands of static caravans which are used for holiday lettings, as well as those which tour our countryside and cross the Border into Scotland or cross the Channel to tour on the Continent.
Housing legislation is, in any circumstance, by its very nature an extremely difficult subject with which to deal. It is probable that caravan legislation, for obvious technical reasons, is even more complicated. But to try to join the two together is really to create a paradise for lawyers and is an attempt to achieve the impossible. I was on the Standing Committee which considered the Caravan Bill in another place. I also attend meetings of the Parks Committee of the National Caravan Council and am concerned with a company that operates caravan estates, so I have some personal and practical knowledge of the very real difficulties that I greatly fear will be created by this Bill if it is not amended. I therefore suggest to your Lordships that when we pass legislation, be it temporary or permanent, anything to do with caravans should be separated entirely from housing. I would suggest that where protection is needed for tenants of caravans and where that protection is comparable with that needed by tenants of houses and flats, appropriate legislation ought to be enacted by amendment to the Caravan Sites and Control of Developments Act, 1960, and not be a part of housing legislation.
If it is accepted that this Bill ought to be clarified and uncertainty removed from it, then the question may well be asked: why leave out caravans, as proposed in my Amendment, instead of

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including them? The reason, I think, is that a caravan is mobile. If it is temporarily static, with wheels removed, such a structure can quickly be made mobile. It will be appreciated that this creates quite a different set of conditions from dwellings and premises which have foundations in the ground and are static.
May I be allowed to illustrate my point by giving an example? A landowner has a caravan site licence. On this site he lets a pitch to the owner of a caravan, who, in turn, lets out his caravan to a tenant when he is not using it himself. Let us suppose that the lease of that pitch comes to an end and another caravan is due on that pitch. What happens if the tenant in the caravan that is already there will not leave the caravan? What then is the position? If the owner of the caravan tows this caravan away with the tenant in it, what happens then? Perhaps the site owner tows the caravan away. Who sues whom, and for what? Is it a criminal offence for the landowner to take action to have the caravan removed when it is no longer legally entitled to be on that pitch? What is the relationship of the owner of a caravan with his tenant under this Bill? Again, what are their separate and/or joint relationships with the owner of the site who, to make matters still more complicated, may also be leasing the land on which he has his licensed site from a landowner?
Again, take the case of the owner of a caravan who uses his caravan for a fortnight at Whitsuntide and then lets it out for the rest of the summer to others, perhaps by the week or fortnight, to be occupied by them for their holidays. There are tens of thousands of people who do this and have their caravans fully booked in the spring for summer lettings. What happens if the caravan owner lets out his caravan at a cheap rate throughout the winter months to a person who resides in that caravan because he badly needs residential accommodation throughout the winter—it is not a holiday letting throughout the winter, nor, surely, is such a person considered as occupying lodgings—and then, at the very last moment, just before Whitsuntide, the tenant says that he is not going to leave?
The owner misses his holiday and the other tenants who have already booked accommodation with him during
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the summer have to make last-minute rearrangements. The sitting tenant remains in the caravan at the cheap winter rate until such time as the courts can decide whether the case comes within the jurisdiction of this Bill. Then, presumably, when this point has been decided one way or another at considerable cost, further legal proceedings will be necessary and more expense incurred to deal with the occupation of that caravan by that tenant.
On Monday, during the course of his winding up of the Second Reading debate, the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, said that this Bill should be kept simple. I entirely agree with him. As the whole purpose of this Amendment is to simplify and clarify this Bill, I know that I must have the noble and learned Lord's wholehearted support of it. I could go on for a long time giving various examples of what might happen under the Bill, but I do not propose to detain your Lordships any further. I hope I have said enough to show that as this Bill is drafted, in so far as caravans are concerned it is uncertain, complicated and will cause confusion if it is not amended along the lines that I have suggested. I hope, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government and your Lordships will agree to the acceptance of this Amendment, which I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 41, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Wakefield of Kendal.)
LORD AIREDALE: It looks as though next year's holiday caravan holiday season is also going to be a holiday for lawyers.
LORD MITCHISON: i listened to the very interesting speech of the mover of the Amendment with great attention and, if he will allow me to say so, with particular interest, because I, too, see something of caravans at times. Be that as it may, I am afraid the answer to this Amendment is that it really is unnecessary. The trouble arose out of a Member in another place thinking that caravans had been brought within the scope of the Bill, that they had been added probably inadvertently. They have not—not the ordinary caravan; there are one or two odd varieties I should like to mention in a minute. The moving caravan was what the noble Lord had in mind; he told us so. If you have a moving caravan it will be first on one

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piece of land and then another. You do not let that caravan; it is not let to anybody. There is either licence or hiring of it. It is only when you come to dig it in, as it were, that any question of letting arises. Those are rather different cases.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: If the noble Lord will permit me to intervene, there are many thousands of caravans that are not dug in but remain mobile, but which, on the other hand, remain static in the same place year after year and are let on long lets and short lets to tenants.
LORD MITCHISON: Nevertheless, they are mobile caravans; the noble Lord himself so described them and it was a perfectly accurate description. It does not matter that they do not move perhaps for several years. They are not part of the ground; they are not let. "Letting" and "tenancy" are words which relate to the actual land; they do not relate to something that is lying on it and has the power to move about over it. That is the position as regards caravans; and this is clearly a case, if I am using proper language in your Lordships' House, of "no names, no pack drill". I think all this trouble has arisen from what I believe was a mistake by one Member in another place. I have no doubt that in any ordinary case, at any rate, the moving caravan—the kind of caravan that the noble Lord and I both have in mind, however often or seldom it actually moves—is not within the Bill because it is not let. The question, therefore, does not arise.
The trouble is this. If we put this kind of provision into a Bill it puts ideas into the heads of people; if we have put something in they wonder why we have not put something else in. We add confusion by putting in specific exceptions of this sort. I would point out that the caravan itself it not always wholly identifiable. There was the case that was much relied on by one Member in another place. This related to a very curious object. I do not know whether or not it would have been included in the definition of a caravan that the noble Lord has in mind. It. is worth looking at. This was a decision not of a court but of the Kingston-on-Thames and Area Land Tribunal. They described the caravan thus:
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"An ancient converted horse pantechnicon, Scherzo, which after long and honourable service on the road is practically falling to pieces."
I do not think you could let a Scherzo; it is rather doubtful whether you could move it. These things do happen. There was a case of an engineless motor chassis; that was one; and the other was mounted on what appears to be a farm waggon—and I am quoting from the decision of the tribunal:
"We are of opinion the caravans might with difficulty be moved from one position in the field to another, but could not be considered as ambulatory dwellings."
If we are going to exclude caravans, what are we going to do about "ambulatory dwellings" of this kind and Scherzo in the other case?
If in a simple, short emergency Bill of this kind one tries to make specific exceptions one may get into considerable trouble as to what has been excepted. I know there is a statutory definition relied upon, but I can assure the noble Lord that, to the best of my opinion and belief, the ordinary caravan—not these somewhat exotic varieties—is not within the Bill simply, because it is not let.
LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL: While thanking the noble Lord for that statement, it does not really take us much further, because, without any discourtesy to the noble Lord, he knows from his experience in another place and elsewhere that expressions of opinion on the law in this House or in another place count for nothing in the courts. So if the Government are not prepared to accept this Amendment in what, after all, is temporary legislation, it may well mean next year a paradise for lawyers in trying to find out what is the meaning and what is the purpose of this Bill.
However, my whole point is that I do not think legislation ought to leave this House where there is any doubt or uncertainty at all. I hope at any rate that your Lordships' time has not been wasted by my having drawn attention to the very real difficulties which arise where housing and caravans are concerned, and hope that what has been said on this occasion may be taken note of by the Government when more permanent legislation is enacted in the near future, both for caravans and for houses. I should not like it to be thought that

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there need by any difference between houses and caravans where it may be necessary to see that justice is done for any tenant or owner of a caravan. I would suggest that anything of that kind should be done by means of different legislation when it comes to enacting permanent legislation; and, therefore, because this Bill is only a temporary Bill, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
5.20 p.m.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I want to raise a point on Clause 1. I think it is probably the appropriate clause on which to raise it. This clause, after all, imposes these general restrictions on recovery of possession, and what is a very relevant factor in relation to that—and this is why I think it is probably the right clause on which to raise it—is the time which it will take to bring such cases before the courts. In the course of his reply on Second Reading, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor touched upon this subject, and I want to invite his elaboration of what he said on that occasion. He said that it ordinarily takes about six weeks to bring a case before the courts,
"in some places five to seven weeks, and in some places six to eight weeks."—[Official Report, Vol. 262 (No. 21), col. 345, December 14, 1964.]
I have not got the records available, but my impression was that in some parts of the country it might take considerably longer than that between the issue of a plaint and the hearing of the case. Then he went on to say this—and I agree with him:
"It is very important that proceedings under this Bill should reach the county court quickly".
He then added:
"and there are various ways of doing this."
Then he went on to say:
"I am proposing by administrative directions to see, first, that any undefended case is taken at the earliest date and is put first in the list and in front of anything else that may be in the list."
I want to ask the noble and learned Lord what exactly is meant by "administrative directions" in this context. Does
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it mean that there are going to be rules of court which are available for everyone to see; or does it mean that the noble and learned Lord is going to tell county court judges in what order they are to try their cases? If the latter, is that not almost without precedent? Again, I have not looked into the history of this, but I should have thought it was unprecedented for a Lord Chancellor to say to a county court judge in what order he should dispose of the cases in his list. I should be grateful if the noble and learned Lord would explain exactly what he meant by these "administrative directions". It is one thing to ask a county court judge to do certain things; it is, of course, another to direct him. I do not think—I speak with great respect—that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has himself any power to direct county court judges as to the manner in which they deal with the work and the cases they have to try. I may be wrong, but I cannot think of a precedent for this.
But of course if that is done—and I certainly am not objecting to steps being taken for the prompt hearing of these cases—I think one must have some regard to the position of the ordinary litigant. If the effect of this is going to be that the cases of ordinary litigants are going to be deferred, postponed and will take much longer to hear because of the accelerated treatment given to these cases, then I must say that I regard this as serious. I know that county court judges are at the present time heavily engaged. Many of them have to travel a great many miles to sit in their courts, to sit all day and motor home in all kinds of weather. Others have extremely heavy lists. I know that this is a temporary Bill, but does it really mean that for the currency of this Bill there will be a material delay in hearing the cases of ordinary litigants? I should be grateful if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would deal with this, because frankly I feel anxiety about it.
I have not given the noble and learned Lord notice that I was going to raise these points. I am sorry I have not found it possible to do so. If he is not in a position to reply now to the points I am raising—I am sure he will appreciate that I am not raising them in a controversial sense, but because I feel really anxious about them—I hope that

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he will at least in the course of the passage of this Bill explain in more detail how this is going to be done and what its effect will be, or is likely to be, on the ordinary litigant. I know that he says that the registrars will have power to try these cases. Registrars have the power to try a great many cases. But they, too, at the present time, without the burden imposed by this Bill, are heavily occupied. At least that has always been my impression. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor appreciates that I am raising these matters out of concern for general administration.
In column 346 the noble and learned Lord went on to say:
"where it is merely an argument about how long the occupier is to stay on and on what terms, then such a case, I hope, ought to be before the county court within, say, fourteen to twenty-one days—and, I would hope, fourteen."
He went on to add:
"A county court judge would have power to transfer cases from his court to another if there is another more convenient court which is meeting earlier."
I doubt whether, if the test of the more convenient court is applied, that will be made use of to any extent, because the plaint will be started in the most convenient court from the point of view of locality.
I have not looked this up, but in regard to this power to transfer a case to another county court where the case might be dealt with earlier, even though it is less convenient—and where such transfer takes place it normally will be to a less convenient court than that in which the plaint was first issued—it may be that the noble and learned Lord was using the phrase "to a more convenient court" in the sense that it would enable the case to be disposed of more rapidly. I do not wish to put too much weight upon that. But I am really concerned about the nature of the administrative directions that it is proposed to give. Will they be in rules? Will they be made public so that we can see them? Secondly, I am concerned about what is going to be the effect on the position of the ordinary litigant in the county courts, which, as the noble and learned Lord knows, are quite fully engaged at the present time.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These, of course, will be matters for the consideration of the county court judges. But naturally, before I said what I did, I had made inquiries as to both the present volume of work in those courts and the sort of volume of work which was likely to result from this Bill. The attention of the county court judges would be drawn first to the fact that under this Bill there might be urgent cases: not every case will be urgent; and what I said on Second Reading should be understood as referring to cases in which there is some reason, either from the point of view of the landlord or from that of the tenant—probably the landlord—why the case should be heard at an early date. Their attention would be drawn to the fact that the Bill itself enables such proceedings to be heard by the registrar. They would be reminded of their existing powers, both as to ability to transfer cases from one court to another to abridge the time in a case where it is necessary or desirable to abridge the time, and in the arrangement of their lists. I am satisfied that the volume of work which is likely to flow will not prejudice the hearing of the cases of other litigants.
It must be remembered, of course, that this is a Bill which is intended to operate for only a matter of months. This is a question of holding up eviction until a proper Rent Bill is ready. I feel sure that, if the relevant considerations are pointed out to learned county court judges, they will make use of the powers which they have. I did add—and I will repeat—that if it should prove necessary to give them any further powers by rule, I should certainly be prepared to do it. After all, so far as I am aware, outside London there is no authority which has any homes for evicted families which can take a whole family, and until recently that was the case in London. Out of 9,000 children in care in London 1,000 are children, not who have anything wrong with them or whose parents do not want them; they are simply and solely in a home as a result of evictions. Once a family gets broken up, none of us can really ever say whether or not it will come together again. It is to stop this, until the permanent legislation is ready in the spring or whenever it

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may be ready, that this Bill is before your Lordships' House.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: I was not, of course, dealing with the merits of the proposal. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor for his explanation of what he meant when he spoke on Second Reading. He has now made it clear that when he referred to administrative directions, the word "directions" was not quite the accurate word to use; that in fact he is going to remind or inform judges of the county courts of the position, and I am sure, as no doubt he is, that they will co-operate to the best of their ability. But he will also appreciate that there is a very great deal of difference between drawing matters to the attention of county court judges and giving them directions. I make no apology for raising this technical point, and we shall watch with interest to see whether this does lead to delay in ordinary litigation. I hope the noble and learned Lord will keep his eye on this and not hesitate to take steps to avoid such a result should it appear likely to come about.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Before we leave this point, may I ask the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, whether he has yet had time to consult his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland as to the possibility of taking similar steps in Scotland?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As I understand it, Scotland is more fortunate and it will not be necessary. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was here when I said something on this point before. The position in Scotland is, as I stated a little time ago, that if the short form of proceedings is used one would have to give only two days' notice, and the case then comes on on whatever is the next day on which the court is sitting. I have communicated with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, and I am informed that that is the position in Scotland. If that is so, it is very much more expeditious than the situation in England.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Suspension of execution of order for possession
2.
(2) Where the court by virtue of this section suspends the execution of an order for the possession of any premises it may authorise the withdrawal from the occupier of any specified services or furniture and impose such terms and conditions, including conditions as to the payment by the occupier of arrears of rent, rent or mesne profits and otherwise, as the court thinks reasonable.
(4) In considering whether or how to exercise its powers under this section the court shall have regard to all the circumstances and, in particular, to the following, that is to say,—
(a) whether the occupier has failed (whether before or after the termination of the former tenancy) to observe any terms or conditions thereof;
(c) whether he has failed to make reasonable efforts to obtain other suitable accommodation;
5.33 p.m.
THE EARL OFKINNOULL THE EARL OFKINNOULL moved to add to subsection (2):
"Provided that so long as this Act applies to a dwelling, the occupier and the owner thereof shall, except so far as the court may otherwise order or direct by virtue of this subsection, be required to observe and be entitled to the benefit of all the terms and conditions of the former tenancy; but so that the acceptance by the owner of rent or other payment made by the occupier shall not be evidence of the creation of any tenancy nor shall any notice to quit be required prior to the recovery of possession of the dwelling when this Act has ceased to apply to it."
The noble Earl said: Although this Amendment as it stands on the Order Paper is rather lengthy, it is both simple and constructive in character. The purpose is to make perfectly clear what are the rights between the landlord and tenant under this Bill when a tenancy comes to an end and the suspended period begins. The Amendment is designed to encourage both the landlord and the tenant to settle in a friendly spirit a tenancy by consent during this period and not to create a deluge of cases for reference to the courts in order to determine the respective rights of the parties. Strong doubts were expressed in another place on this matter and, with respect, I do not think that the answer given there was very clear. All that is known is that when a landlord applies for an order for possession the tenant can be granted occupation for a further twelve months. It does not seem clear whether the occupier under these conditions is to

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be considered as the contractual tenant, as a statutory tenant, or just as a trespasser.
The landlord appears to have three courses open to him under this Bill at the termination of a tenancy. He may agree terms amicably with a tenant; he may apply for a possession order to the court, which will be pointless; or he may just allow the tenant to remain in possession without applying for a suspended order. Supposing that under the previous tenancy agreement there was a repairing covenant, and the landlord chooses to allow the tenant to remain in occupation without applying for a suspended order, it would appear that he can say to the tenant, should the tenant complain that the roof is falling in, "The statute allows you to stay in this house, but it does not say that I have to repair the premises."
The other purpose of this Amendment covers the question of the landlord's accepting rent from the tenant during the suspended period. I have taken advice on this point, and I am told that as such a tenant is not defined under the Bill the landlord would be ill-advised to accept rent from the. tenant in case it was implied that he was creating a further tenancy. If the tenant was a controlled tenant it is clear in law where the landlord stands. I suggest that this rent problem can create great bitterness between landlord and tenant. As I have said, the purpose of this Amendment is to make clear the rights between the landlord and the tenant during the suspended period and to prevent parties from having to clog up the courts in order to determine what their respective rights are. This Amendment sets out to fulfil both these purposes. I trust that it will be considered favourably by the Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 11, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
LORD HASTINGS: I am grateful to my noble friend for moving this Amendment; I have very little to add. What I have to say relates only to the question of rent, which is a matter of real difficulty for both landlord and tenant. They honestly do not know what to do in this sort of situation. I remember that in the other place the Parliamentary Secretary rather pooh-poohed this, saying that it
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was a bit of folklore that if the landlord accepted a rent he would be creating a new tenancy in this sort of situation after the old tenancy had finished. In point of fact the Parliamentary Secretary must be wrong. Surely that refers only to statutory, controlled tenancies: it would not refer to any other form of tenancy. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would enlighten us on this point. If I am right, it is all the more important to have something written into the Bill to clarify the point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Government have, of course, carefully considered this, but are satisfied that this very complicated proviso is unnecessary and would only cause unnecessary complications. The Bill does not apply at all where somebody goes and squats in somebody else's house. It applies only to tenants after the tenancy has been fully determined. At that point if the tenant remains, not necessarily because he is a wicked man but because he cannot find anywhere to go, the landlord will either come to terms with him or will apply to the court for an eviction order. If he applies to the court for an eviction order, then this will not arise. If he comes to terms with him, that means there will be a new tenancy.
The only other situation one can envisage is that the landlord might, I suppose, say to the tenant: "You can remain there for ever, and I don't want any rent." That, I suppose, would be strictly a tenancy as well. But if they come to terms, there is a new tenancy—it may be on weekly terms, or on a day's notice, or on any terms they agree. But if that happens that tenancy will have to come to an end before the landlord can go to the court. As soon as that tenancy comes to an end he can go to the court again.
The only other point which could arise is that the tenant might want to pay something in the two or three weeks before the matter got to the court because he would know that the court would order him to go on paying it. But there is no difficulty about a landlord's taking it provided that he makes it clear that he is taking it as mesne profit and not as rent. It is not right to say that any complication need be anticipated, whereas with a proviso of this kind which says that he is "required to observe and be entitled to the benefit

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of all the terms and conditions of the former tenancy" that is a matter which the court would no doubt resolve when the case came before it. But the Amendment seeks to lay down terms that they are "required to observe". But the contract has already expired. This has nothing to do with what the court is going to order. This is really creating a new kind of statutory tenancy. That is what would be done if this Amendment were accepted. In our view, therefore, it is fortunately unnecessary to complicate this temporary Bill by provisions of that kind, as the anticipated difficulties will not arise. We are therefore, I am afraid, unable to accept the Amendment
LORD HASTINGS: There is just one point that I should like to put to the noble and learned Lord. He mentioned that the landlord and tenant might enter into a new agreement, perhaps on a weekly or monthly basis, and it does seem hard that, if a landlord said, "You can stay there for six months", he should have to go to the court if the tenant did not get out, when the six months' period was up. I was rather attracted by the suggestion of the Liberal Member for Orpington in the other place, who said that, surely, if the landlord extends the tenancy for the maximum period of twelve months in the Bill, the tenant should not be allowed to stay in the premises after that, and why should the court be worried about it? It seems to me, the tenancy having come to an end, that they should be allowed to agree on a firm basis and the tenant ought not to have any legal rights at the end of it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Of course, that inevitably follows in the case of any tenancy when notice has been given and comes to an end. Of course, it is fair to say that the tenant has been given notice; either for a fixed period which has come to an end, or due notice of whatever length of notice he is entitled to. But if it is right that in those circumstances a landlord should be prevented from evicting the tenant by force, even though the tenancy has come to an end, and should have to go to the court, it should equally be the case where, a tenancy having ended, the parties have come to terms and agreed a tenancy. There is no reason why that new agreed tenancy should not also be subject to the provisions of the Bill.
THE EARL OFKINNOULL: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his reply and for the advice he has given on this Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.42 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (4) (c), after "obtain" to insert "or has refused an offer of". The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 5 standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Hastings. I understand that in subsection (4) of this clause we are considering how a court, where it is making an order for possession, is to decide whether to suspend the execution of the order. Subsection (4) says that it is to have regard to all the circumstances and that it should have regard, in particular, to certain considerations. The second of those considerations, under paragraph (b), is whether an occupier "has unreasonably refused an offer of a tenancy" of the same premises or part of them.
What an occupier needs is a roof over his head, but not necessarily the same roof over his head—the roof of the house that he is occupying. If that were not so, indeed there would be no point in subsection (c), on
"whether he has failed to make reasonable efforts to obtain other suitable accommodation",
which implies, of course, that an occupier may at least in certain circumstances be expected to look for other suitable accommodation. Of course he may not need to look for it; he may be offered other suitable accommodation.
My noble friend and I considered whether this Amendment should go into paragraph (b) or paragraph (c). Obviously, instead of offering accommodation in the same premises which might be highly inconvenient, totally impracticable, and quite unsuitable, the owner might offer it in other premises over which he has control. But the owner might himself find suitable accommodation or persuade someone else to offer it, and so we thought it was better to put this Amendment in paragraph (c) rather than paragraph (b).
The noble Lord who is to reply may say that, if an occupier refuses other suitable accommodation, whether offered

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by the owner of the premises he is occupying or by some other person, he clearly has not made efforts to obtain other suitable accommodation. But I should have thought that to go looking for accommodation or to make efforts to find accommodation was quite a different thing from being given an offer without any effort at all. One does not know what view the courts might take of this, but I should have thought they might well say that if Parliament had intended the courts to have particular regard to an offer of other suitable accommodation—as much regard as they have to considerations (b) or (c)—Parliament would have said so.
The last point I should like to make is that under this subsection the court has to have regard to all the circumstances. I may be told that it would therefore be bound, in any case, to have regard to an offer of other suitable accommodation. But if the court is to be obliged to have regard in particular to an offer of a tenancy in the same premises, it might well feel that it should pay very much less attention to an offer of "other suitable accommodation". I submit that the words in the Amendment would be a reasonable addition and would make the considerations which the court is expected to take particularly into account very much clearer and very much more comprehensive. Even if the noble Lord were to say, "Of course, the court will take this into consideration", what my noble friend and I feel is that it should take it into equal consideration with the other considerations that are spelled out in this subsection. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 27, after ("obtain") insert ("or has refused an offer of").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD MITCHISON: The advice I have had, and, I may add, my own opinion, is that this Amendment is really unnecessary. One does not want to add to language which has been fairly carefully considered, unless there is some substantial reason for it. The way I look at the matter is this. The county court is directed among other things to look particularly at the question whether the occupier has failed to make reasonable efforts to obtain other suitable accommodation. I should have thought, if he had in fact refused an offer of other suitable accommodation, that that was either
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the same thing or so close to it that, having regard to the language of the clause as a whole, the county court judge must count it as something which had happened and which he had to regard very seriously. I do not think there is any contradiction. I think that if somebody tried to say, "You, the county court judge, have been asked to look particularly at any failure to make reasonable efforts, but you have not been asked to look with the same intensity at the refusal of an offer", even a county court judge might smile a little at that suggestion.
I think that this is an unnecessary Amendment, and one does not want to complicate the language in a short Bill of this sort which has a particular object, unless there is some real reason for it. I am advised, and for what it is worth my own opinion is, that the Amendment really would not help at all. All that is likely to happen is that it might introduce a little more complication into what is tolerably simple.
LORD HASTINGS: The fact is we were very surprised that in the other place the Amendment was refused in relation to paragraph (b), which appears immediately before. That deals with the action taken by the landlord where he is offering a tenancy of the premises or part of the premises. It seemed to Members in the other place very reasonable, for clarification and simplication—precisely what the noble Lord himself says the Bill is aiming at—to add" or other suitable accommodation." The noble Lord will probably remember that there seemed to be a little confusion of mind in the other place, and nobody quite knew whether the Amendment had been voted on and, if so, for or against.
When it came up at Report stage I thought the Government spokesman refused it rather shamefacedly. I am not sure that it should have been refused, and I thought it might be better to put it in paragraph (c) on this occasion. However, I should have thought it would have clarified things in one subsection or the other; but, of course, it is not a matter I am going to press. If the noble Lord would like to look at it again, and then felt able to put it down on Report stage, we should be very pleased; but we shall not press the Amendment.
LORD MITCHISON: If I may say so to the noble Lord, I, too, agree this does not raise any deep question of principle or anything of that sort, but I can merely repeat that not only my advice but my own opinion is that it would not really add anything. When you try to clarify this kind of thing by adding to it, very often you introduce more confusion. I think the shorter you can make a thing of this kind, if you have really covered the substance of it, the better. It is not a matter one feels strongly about, but I think it is a case where the Government, on the advice they have had and on the opinion we ourselves hold, ought to adhere to what they think is the simplest way of calling the attention of the county court judge to the kind of point that the noble Lord has in mind. I hope that can be accepted.
LORD AIREDALE: If the Minister does not feel all that strongly about it, and if noble Lords on this side of the Committee do feel strongly that this very short Amendment would make for clarification and would be very well worth while, will the Minister now give an undertaking that he will consider this matter again between now and the Report stage? Otherwise, I should be very pleased to vote for this Amendment if I had the opportunity.
LORD MITCHISON: I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, but it really would not be fair to say that consideration would lead to any change. It has been considered, and the opinion I gave is the collective opinion of the Ministry for which I am speaking and, incidentally—and I would say only incidentally—my own. It is a question of language and a little bit of first impression. But I suppose our duty is to put into the Bill what we think will best give effect to an intention which I believe to be completely common on this point between noble Lords opposite and ourselves. I think we all want the same thing, but we consider it is simplest and best expressed in the existing language, and that to add these words would not help and might hinder. I think that, on a question of this sort, we really must adhere to our own opinion and do what we believe to be best, I repeat, for a common intention.
LORD AIREDALE: I just do not follow why it is that the Government
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draw this distinction between the refusal of an offer of a tenancy of the premises, or part of the premises, on the one hand, and other alternative accommodation upon the other hand. What is the subtle distinction here?
LORD MITCHISON: I will see whether I can satisfy the noble Lord as I satisfied myself—because, of course, one does think about this sort of thing. It seems to me that a county court judge who is called upon to look at
"all the circumstances and, in particular, to the following … whether he has failed to make reasonable efforts to obtain other suitable accommodation; … "
clearly could not exclude evidence that an offer had been refused, and, if he had that evidence before him, clearly could not fail to give full weight to it. There seems to me to be no real substance, if I may say so, in the distinction. I cannot see how you can say that you are called upon to consider whether a man
"has failed to make reasonable efforts to obtain other suitable accommodation; … "
and then say that you must not pay the same attention to the refusal of an offer. It is not as though these were limiting words. These are particularities in the general, and that is a little different. If these were limiting words I would put the Amendment in at once, without any hesitation, and a lot more, too. But when you are indicating to a judge what he should direct his attention to, I can only say that it seems to me fairly clear that he would have to look at this and attribute full weight to it.
LORD AIREDALE: I agree. I am sure we are completely ad unum; and the matter could be made abundantly clear by putting these further six words into the Bill.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I would agree with my noble friend Lord Hastings that our first reaction was surprise that words of the kind I have indicated were not in the clause originally, especially as the noble Lord has made it plain that it was his intention that this kind of consideration should be covered. But, having said that, and while expressing gratitude for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, in this matter, I am content to rest on the assurance of Lord Mitchison that this is a matter which he

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has very carefully considered and which, in the view of the Department and in his own opinion, both administrative and legal, is fully covered by the clause as it now stands. If that is so, then I am content to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Restrictions on operation of foregoing sections.
3.—(1) The following provisions of this Act do not apply where the former tenancy was—
5.57 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved, in subsection (1), to insert as a new paragraph (a):
" (a) a contract

(i) to which the Rent of Furnished Houses (Scotland) Act 1943 and the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Act 1946 as amended by the Landlord and Tenant (Rent Control) Act 1949 applied immediately before the termination thereof or would then have applied but for the provision as to rateable value contained in section 12 (1) of the Rent Act 1957; and

(ii) which related to premises situate in an area which was not at the termination thereof designated by an order of the Minister of Housing and Local Government (made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament) as one to which the provision of this Act apply."

The noble Lord said: This, of course, is a very important Amendment, fundamental to the Bill, both from the point of view of the Government and from the point of view of the Opposition. The effect of including this Amendment would be to take out of this temporary measure all furnished dwellings, apart from those which fall under the control of rent tribunals; that is to say, those houses which have a rateable value of £40 in London or £30 outside London. The first point I wish to make is that the existing rent tribunals are to remain in existence, and one fails to see how they are going to operate in conjunction with this Bill when a great many other furnished buildings will come under the Bill. It seems rather a duplication, and I should like some comment on that. It does not seem a very reasonable thing to do.
Apart from that, of course, we feel that it is quite wrong to include furnished dwellings having a net annual value of up to £400. It seems to us wrong
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to include all furnished dwellings in this purely temporary measure when the real aim of the Government is of a different nature altogether—and I will come to that in a moment. The Bill as it stands is going to cause more than inconvenience, I think: it may cause very real damage and hardship to a great many people.
First of all, there are those people whose job takes them overseas, it may be for quite a short time—perhaps six months; or, perhaps, for someone in the Diplomatic Service, for two years. Perhaps they are business men, or, particularly, people in the Services—because there is a continual turnover of these people going to and fro. Naturally, they let their furnished houses while they are away, and they expect to be able to get them back on the day they return. I am sure it is the intention and the wish of the Government, as well as of ourselves, that they should be able to do so. It will be very awkward for these people if they cannot get rid of a tenant in time. I do not know the answer to this problem, but it must be thought about very deeply before the Government produces legislation.
Then we come to purely winter lettings. During the winter in various small towns, and particularly at the seaside, people let their houses and flats for a comparatively low rent, and then expect the tenants to get out to enable the owners to carry on with their holiday trade. It is easy for somebody to take advantage of that situation and to stay on at the low winter rent and make a great deal of trouble for the owner. He may also, incidentally, upset the whole of the lettings, which are probably on a fortnightly basis, for four or five months during the summer and the holiday time. There are also the short lettings during the summer period itself. These tenants also, apparently, could stay in and "upset the apple cart" for a whole lot of people, apart from the landlady, because the case might be the subject of legal action for damages, with the result that many people might have their holidays ruined. I am sure that this is not the purpose of the Government.
On this last point, I regard as important what was said in this House on the Second Reading, when the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, gave it as considered opinion, and as legal advice coming from

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his own Department, that summer lettings at the seaside will not be within the Bill because the occupiers, although they may be in occupation, will not be in residence. Then he added that the reference to "residence" has been included since the Second Reading of the Bill in another place, and the definition of "occupier" appears in Clause 1 (2) in order to avoid any misunderstanding. I pointed out that perhaps there was a slight inaccuracy, since the Amendment was moved, not in order to avoid any misunderstanding on that point, but in connection with a different clause for a different purpose.
But, to refer back to the earlier words, that this word "residence" has that effect; that was denied—or, at least, aspersions were cast on it by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. He said that he could not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison. He said he quite realised that people who live by the seaside let their flats for the summer holidays (and I understand that there is an increasing number of flat lettings rather than the letting of single rooms or lodgings for this holiday purpose) and go away, but that if such a flat is self-contained there is a tenancy and of course the Act will apply. This is a serious matter. It is surely not the intention of the Government to cause this effect, but we must have this particular aspect cleared up and I would ask the noble Lord opposite to give an undertaking that this matter will be looked into.
There was an alternative Amendment in another place which expressly excluded summer lettings. I think we should have an undertaking, in view of the contradiction of advice received from the other side. If I am right in assuming that the Government do not want to catch these people out, either landladies or holiday-makers, I think they should have accepted something like the alternative Amendment in another place, referring to summer lettings or short lettings, and with reference to a perfectly practical Act which exists in New Zealand in this regard. I hope that we shall have an undertaking, otherwise I am afraid that we shall have to move another Amendment at the Report stage to look after this particular point. So I invite the noble Lord to lake note of that and to give me this undertaking, if he can.
Coming to the second half of the Amendment, we fully recognise the real reason behind the Government's wish to include furnished dwellings in this temporary measure. It is to protect people in London, and some of the other congested cities where landlords have taken advantage of the existing legislation to get out of the Rent Acts for unfurnished dwellings by putting in a stick of furniture and calling the accommodation furnished. That is not a very happy situation, and it is a very real problem in this city.
We on this side of the House, when we formed the Government, asked the Milner Holland Committee to consider most particularly in London all furnished dwellings and rented dwellings, both private and local authority; and I was glad to see the other day that the Minister has had a preview of the Report and that it will be available quite soon in the New Year. I hope that it will be published. Perhaps the noble Lord, when he replies, will be able to tell me that. The Minister said that he wanted to look at that Report before casting his major legislation. But we ourselves said that we were going to take action in the light of the recommendations of the Milner Holland Committee, so it is perfectly consistent on our side to agree with legislation of this nature affecting London and the congested cities. That is the purpose of the second half of the Amendment, which would enable the Minister to designate the areas to which this Bill should apply, and to leave everybody else unaffected.
I should have thought that, particularly in an emergency measure, that would have been more than adequate. If the whole landlord-and-tenant relationship, including furnished dwellings, is to be recast in major legislation later next year, that will need a great deal of consideration. At the moment, it seems that the Government have not sufficiently considered the matter, because by this temporary measure they are going to do a lot of damage to people whom they do not wish to hurt. That is why we are giving the opportunity to the Government to exclude, certainly the summer lettings, on the one hand, and on the other, to cover the people they wish to cover by designating the necessary areas. I should have thought that was quite a simple thing to

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do, and I hope that the Government will think over and accept this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 11, insert the said paragraph—(Lord Hastings.)
6.8 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: As my name is coupled with this Amendment I should like to support it, because it is a major Amendment which, as my noble friend has said, takes out all the furnished dwellings from the Bill but gives the Minister power to make regulations approved by both Houses of Parliament applying the Bill's provisions in special areas. I feel that to sweep in all the furnished dwellings which were not swept in before would cause a great hardship. I should like to put one case before the Committee. Suppose a Service man and his wife are ordered abroad at short notice, and let their house for a tenancy of two years, the period of his tour of duty abroad. Then they come back, probably with young children, and find that the tenants will not get out because, they say, they have nowhere else to go. The tenant says: "My wife has just had a baby, and I cannot move out." In that event the case must go to court, and the court has to decide where lies the greater hardship. I think it will upset the whole of the short lettings if owners are placed in that sort of position, and they will think seriously whether or not they will let their house.
I heard a noble Lord on Monday say that he thought there ought to be many more furnished dwellings available, and certainly we all want to see that. But if we are going to put such provisions in the Bill, it means that people will have to go to all the expense of a court order, and it will make them think twice before they let. It is not necessary to have this procedure all over the country, because, when all is said and done, the great shortage of accommodation is in the big cities like London and Birmingham, which have been greatly affected by the large number of overseas residents coming into this country—so much so that we have had to bring in legislation to impose quotas on overseas residents. There is nothing like the same urgency outside. Many of these large cities have little land left for housing and have to go out to new towns to accommodate their populations.
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In the second part of this Amendment we have provision for this, but I cannot see that it is necessary in many parts of the country, where the pressure is not so great, for people to go through this difficult procedure. We are told that permanent legislation is to come along, and I think that something on these lines should be included in that permanent legislation. I support the Amendment.
LORD MITCHISON: I agree with the two noble Lords who have spoken to the Amendment, that it is an important one. Indeed, if it were passed I think that it would have a serious effect on the scope of the Bill. What I think we have to bear in mind on this Amendment is exactly what the Bill is doing. It is an emergency measure. It will oblige some people in some circumstances to go to the county court and get an order, instead of turning people out forcibly. That is really all it does—with the one exception of requisitioned dwellings, which is a minor matter.
The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, spoke about upsetting the apple cart. I cannot feel that we are going to upset many, or indeed any, apple carts by a landlord going to the court instead of taking upon himself—self-help, it is sometimes called—the extremely difficult job of forcibly evicting somebody without using too much force. That is what the whole of this Bill is about. It does not prevent people from coming to agreements. It simply prevents "wrongful eviction", as the Scots call it. It limits Rachmanism. There may not always be "Rachmans" involved, but all kinds of other circumstances. And in a simple measure of this sort one has to consider carefully the addition of complications.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for recognising that there are large parts of the country where something of this sort is urgently necessary. I think it was that in the minds of noble Lords opposite that led them to accept the Bill on Second Reading. I think we could all agree about that as a matter of common sense and one's own experience. But I think that we must be careful about going too far over this. A city like London is not uniformly virtuous or uniformly vicious, and there might be more evil in trying to legislate on a geographical basis the geographical location of virtue being somewhat uncertain. Especially in a

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temporary measure, and under the present circumstances, we must deal with it as simply as we possibly can.
This Amendment requires two points to be satisfied. First of all, one has to be within a district which the Minister has designated for the purposes of the Act and, secondly, there are provisions about furnished lettings, which I will come to in a minute. Therefore, it is within the designated districts that this question applies. I think that I have that right. It would leave London, if it is going to be designated, out of the picture, and this provision would apply, let me say, to Bournemouth or some place of that character.
LORD HASTINGS: I think that it is the other way round. This excludes from the provisions of the proposed Bill areas which are not especially designated.
LORD MITCHISON: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I got it right the first time and then confused myself. With regard to the geographical point, this not only would complicate the matter, but would also involve difficulty about whether to apply it to a mixed area (if I may call it so for this purpose) which does not obviously call for the functions of the Bill. It would also involve us in difficulties about drawing a sharp line between different areas and having one law on one side of the street and another law on the other. This is the kind of thing we want to avoid in an Act of this kind.
Apart from this question, there is the more substantial question of furnished lettings as a whole. What we have done is to apply these provisions to every tenancy or, perhaps more accurately, after every tenancy. We have not had regard to whether it was furnished or unfurnished, and I think that is a perfectly clear and simple thing to do. If, however, we are going to take furnished accommodation out, we are, in a measure of this sort, asking for trouble. This is not a Bill intended to deal with landlords as a whole, but with bad landlords. If a landlord is good and behaves as reasonable people do, I doubt whether this Bill is ever going to come his way at all. In the ordinary course of things, if a good landlord wanted possession he would go to the court about it, and this Bill
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is not needed to oblige him to do so. It is the kind of people who will take every possible advantage within the law, or on the edges of the law, whom we have to deal with here.
This business has already begun. We have already had certain attempts, and I would repeat the passage out of the Economist:
"Landlords are buying or attempting to buy tenants' furniture so as to convert leases to furnished tenancies."
We can get the inverse process, and there are all sorts of ways out of being under rent control. Generally, there has been considerable difficulty about what "furnished" meant. Are premises furnished when you put a bit of linoleum on the floor? How many chairs have you to put in for them to be "furnished"? All these points are connected with attempts by landlords to get out of the legislation about unfurnished accommodation by turning it into furnished accommodation, and it was these attempts which led to the rent tribunals. If we now bring in an emergency Act and do not apply it to furnished lettings, we are simply asking for the same trouble in exactly the same circumstances, and we shall get the trouble from the same kind of people who had to be dealt with by the rent tribunals and the legislation about them.
I was asked: is not the legislation about rent tribunals sufficient? What will be left for the rent tribunals to do? The short answer to the second question is that they are rent tribunals to fix rents. That is their primary object. While they have powers about security of tenure ancillary to that, they will still have to carry out the job of fixing rents where they find the rents unreasonable. But it is true that they give some security of tenure in cases where they have to fix the rent.
But there are various troubles about this. One is that a great many of the premises which are included for the purpose of the Bill would be beyond the jurisdiction of the rent tribunal, because those tribunals deal only with the limitations of rent control, and that is something that does not apply here. The larger and more expensive houses all come under the £400 figure—or, if the noble Lord prefers it, his own £300 figure—and do not come within the rent control provision.

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There is another difficulty about this. I can hear noble Lords saying: "We do not very much mind about that. We do not think the danger is as great." I am not sure that this is right. The rent control figures are very low, but that is another matter. One unsatisfactory feature about the rent control legislation is that if you are going to get security of tenure you have to go to the rent tribunal before the notice to quit is served. That is the real difficulty in these cases. I mentioned this on Second Reading;. Perhaps at this hour of the night I might put it in this way. I am sure that rent control, the rent tribunals and the legislation about them would not give the protection given by this Bill against the landlord who wants to evict by force rather than by going to the county court. That is the whole thing. Therefore, I would ask your Lordships to refuse this Amendment.
I rather lost count (it was my fault; I should have taken a more careful note) of what the noble Lord asked me to do, but I think I picked up one thing. I can repeat that this Bill must be taken as without prejudice, as it were, to what may be done in the, larger Bill. Because in this Bill we treat furnished and unfurnished lettings for this purpose together, it by no means follows that they will be so treated in any other legislation. I am not giving a promise as to what the legislation will be. It is because we are thinking it over and waiting for the Report of the Milner Holland Committee that we want this temporary emergency legislation. I remember that the noble Lord asked me about the publication of the Milner Holland Report. I do not officially know the answer, and I can only say that, personally, I should be surprised if it were not published. I should have thought it was the kind of Report that would be published. But that must not be taken as an undertaking from the Government. If the noble Lord would like me to inquire further about it, perhaps he would tell me. If I have missed any other points in the noble Lord's speech it is due to the infirmity of my recollection.
6.24 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving such a comprehensive explanation, and, if I may, I should like to compliment him on its clearness and the approach he has made
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to this matter. The two important points that he made were, first, that you have to apply to the rent tribunals before a notice to quit is given; and secondly—and this is a point which, to the best of my recollection, was not raised in another place—that if you included all unfurnished dwellings in this comprehensive temporary measure on security of tenure, and did not include furnished dwellings, then people would begin furnishing the unfurnished dwellings. I quite appreciate that point.
But the noble Lord still has not really answered the question of the difficulty of these summer lettings. He said that we should not try to complicate the thing. It seems to me that the Government are a little obstinate here. They are the ones who are introducing complications and difficulties for themselves and for other people, and we want to help them sort it out. The noble Lord also said: "Surely it is only a question of going to the court instead of forcibly evicting people". But there is a rather different situation in respect of holidays lettings. There is no time to go to the court on short lettings of a fortnight, or, for that matter, even to get the short-winter-let tenant out. After all, these people have their own homes. They came from somewhere, and they must have somewhere to go back to. It is not as if they are rendered homeless. I frankly think that the landlord who is having holiday lettings upset is quite justified in putting them out, bag and baggage, on the doorstep, if they refuse to move. I cannot see that there is any moral argument against it in the particular case where people are not rendered homeless, and I think the Government should deal with that matter. Otherwise the Bill is going to have a very bad effect, not only on holiday lettings, but in regard to furnished dwellings in general.
I should like to read to your Lordships some extracts from two letters that have been sent to me. In the first the people are writing from Hampshire, and this is what they say:
"For several years my wife has provided two furnished flats at Swanage. These have been in very great demand, particularly from people with young children and also from the occasional Serviceman on leave. These flats were let almost exclusively for periods of a fortnight, except for the occasional winter let. Because of the expense involved in travelling

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to and from the flats we decided to sell them and in their place to purchase a house at Barton-on-Sea. This we have recently done. The place has been redecorated and central heating installed. If the Bill is passed in its present form it will be impossible to make a letting programme as we could never be sure that tenants would leave the premises at the end of the fortnightly or other short periods. I shall be exceedingly grateful if you will tell me whether you consider that this will be the position. If it is, then we shall at once sell the property."
What could otherwise be expected? This is what will happen in so many cases.
The other letter refers to another aspect that I had not yet mentioned but which is not without importance. It is a member writing to the National Federation of Property Owners, and he says:
"I do not know whether your Society is aware of the fact that if furnished accommodation will also become 'controlled' nobody giving home loans, whether building society or local council, will allow their mortgagors to let at all. Thus the housing shortage will become twenty times worse than it has ever been. … I am living in a little house under mortgage to the local borough council (Labour controlled) who have in the past given me permission to let, on condition it does not become rent-controlled."
Noble Lords know that mortgagees cannot recover statutory controlled properties if the mortgagor cannot reacquire the property. Presumably, the mortgagees will therefore find themselves in the same position under this temporary measure—and they may perhaps be in the same position under a permanent measure—and cease to let, just as this lady has done. These are serious matters.
To return to the question that I asked of the noble Lord, whether he would give an undertaking to do something about summer lettings, I think I have rather demolished his argument, if I may say so, about the hardship upon people who occupy these temporarily, because they are not going to be rendered homeless, even if they are thrown out. If the noble Lord will not give an undertaking that he will do something about the summer lettings, then I am afraid we shall have to move another Amendment on the subject on the Report stage.
LORD WOLVERTON: The noble Lord did not reply to my question about the problem of the Serviceman going overseas at short notice and letting his
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house. Would he be prepared to consider putting an Amendment down on Report stage such as the one put down in another place for the tied cottage, so that the court should give special consideration to this man?
LORD MITCHISON: I must first apologise to the noble Lord. It is perfectly true that I left a large part of his argument unanswered, so interested was I in my own way of putting the matter. Let me get one thing quite clear. It arose out of what the noble and learned Lord said at the beginning. I shall never object to being found wrong in law by the present Lord Chancellor. I am sure he will understand that. After all, one has to recognise experience when one meets it. If I was wrong—and I may well have been; I am not quite certain—the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and I both reached the same result by different routes. I said it was a question of whether people resided in these places, and he said—and this is an answer to a good deal of what the noble Lord has been saying—that many of these summer lets were apt to be licences and not lets at all. University students in "digs" was one instance which I gave. Clearly they are not lets. People who go to a place in some pleasant surroundings for a fortnight are not as a rule taking a lease at all; they are just being allowed to go there, as they would be to "digs" or to a room in a hotel. There is much more likely to be the relationship of the normal landlord and tenant. Therefore, I accept entirely—indeed, I should not have the impertinence to do anything else—what my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor said about licences. I should have mentioned it. I quite agree.
There is another reason, too. There are longer lets, the ones that, for convenience, both the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, and I called winter lets; that is to say, lets for several months on end. The noble Lord took the case, and I think I did, too, of the brother officer. He is becoming almost as well known a figure as the "reasonable businessman", who used to appear for a long time in various guises. I think the answer here is a practical one. I think I gave it on Second Reading, but I will repeat it very shortly. I do not believe that you have, in that sort of case, to deal with the

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question by recourse to this Bill and its provisions. I do not think anybody is at all likely even to go to a county court, and still less are they likely to try forcible eviction. In a measure that lasts only for a year I think there is a great virtue in simplicity. If you attempted to divide up the furnished lettings into those where there was merit of the kind the noble Lord had in mind, the Bill would never be needed, and thus, where the Bill might be needed, you would only introduce an impossible complication. The only practical thing to do is to take in all the furnished lettings. I agree that there are borderline cases. I agree that I was talking about the difficulty of distinguishing licences and leases with regard to agricultural tenants, and one might say, "Well, why not here?" The distinctions are not going to make much difference.
I hope I have satisfied the noble Lord within Parliamentary reason, as it were. But I can give no undertaking to introduce this or any other Amendment at the Report stage. I hope we shall be able to enact this Bill in as simple and expeditious a form as possible, and I believe that is what we all want.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
6.35 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: I should like to say a brief word about Clause 3. Two matters arise. The first one is on subsection (1) (a), which refers to jurisdiction of the county court and the limit of £400 rateable value, to which I referred yesterday. I wanted to clear up something on that, because the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor in winding up took me to say something which I had not intended. I pointed out that, although the £400 level was outrageous if applied to the whole country, my argument on differentiation of categories and amounts was directed toward;; the main legislation and for consideration in the future, and not by way of criticism of this temporary measure.
The other matter of some importance to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention is a rather strange omission from this list of exceptions. This is a clause which says that certain people and authorities, and certain legislation, shall not be covered in the Bill. I have a letter here from a housing association
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wondering why housing associations have not been excluded. This letter came into my hands only just before I came into the House, and although I have not been able to put down a manuscript Amendment I thought I might bring the matter up on this occasion. This is what the letter says:
"I am writing to you to express this Association's concern at the fact that the above Bill … effectually prejudices the position of Housing Associations inasmuch as they are implicity made subject to this proposed enactment whereas they have previously been excluded from the ambit of legislation affording security of tenure by virtue of Section 33 of the House Repairs and Rents Act, 1954. This exclusion has in the past amounted to equating the special circumstances of Housing Association lettings with lettings of local authorities and it would seem that the present Bill, as it now stands, presages a general extension of security of tenure provisions to Housing Associations."
I think perhaps this was an oversight on the part of the Government. I gather that a deputation of the National Federation of Housing Societies has already seen the Minister and received the reply that there had not been time to go into things sufficiently. But when you see that even the ecclesiastical authorities and their ability to eject incumbents from parsonages has been included, I should have thought that somebody might have thought of Housing Associations, because they more readily spring to the mind.
I should like the noble Lord's reaction to this, and perhaps an expression of intention whether the Government could slip that exclusion into the Bill at Report stage, or at least to hear whether they could make some statement that it is not their intention to exclude housing associations later on.
LORD MITCHISON: So far as I am concerned, I find this proposal a trifle sudden. It is quite true that it had not occurred to me, but I am afraid that now that it does occur to me I do not feel very hopeful about it. Let me give the noble Lord my reasons. There is, I think, a reason for excluding local authorities to some extent because their character, I should have thought, is fundamentally different from that of housing associations in that they are elected bodies, and the real sanction against unreasonable management of their housing estates by a local authority

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is that the councillors will not be reelected. That is the real sanction behind the authority all the time. I should have thought that it was extraordinarily unlikely that anything under this Bill would in practice affect housing associations. But I am not so sure that they ought to be excluded. I think that if you open the door in any way, you may find even in the limited time available that various other bodies will also try to come in. I say quite frankly. not with great experience of housing associations, that if there is not in various respects some difference between them, then they are unlike any other body of institutions I have ever met.
If there were cases where a housing association was contemplating using force, then this introduces some almost metaphysical ideas, and I find it rather difficult. It might be wise that they should go to the court. I cannot think that they are going to suffer in any way, and I feel that it would probably meet the requirements of the correspondents of the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, if I repeated once again that this Bill is No 1ndication of what form permanent legislation may be. I have taken the point that housing associations have had special protection not only in that respect but in other respects, but I will not try to go over the history of this matter now and I should not possibly remember it if I did. But nothing in this Bill will either detract from or add to the treatment that they will receive under permanent legislation.
I have been asked to make this specially clear, not only in this but in, other connections. I rather think that the correspondents of the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, might find that assurance satisfies them as regards this Bill. I shall very gladly, of course, talk to the noble Lord about it if he so wishes, but that does not always quite meet the case.
LORD HASTINGS: I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said, especially about the temporary nature of this Bill. I agree that these people are most unlikely to be affected by this temporary measure. The real fear is that they might be affected by the permanent measure. The noble Lord's statement
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may reassure them in this regard to a certain extent. I would draw attention to the discussions we had rather on these lines on the Housing Bill, 1964, and I would remind the noble Lord that almost all the housing associations in future will, I think, come under the new statutory Housing Corporations and they could with even greater confidence in the future, be treated as responsible bodies. That may be worthy of consideration.
LORD MITCHISON: I know that the noble Lord understands quite clearly, but these things sometimes get muddled a little in transmission. What I am saying, and I repeat it quite clearly, is that this Bill and the provisions in it will not affect the future legislation, one way or another. I can give no undertaking whatever as to what the future legislation will be, because it is the consideration which is being given to it which has occasioned this Bill.
On Question, Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Postponement of decontrol of formerly requisitioned dwellings.
5. Section 11 (5) of the Rent Act 1957 (which extended, until the end of March 1965, the application of the Rent Acts to certain dwellings of which those Acts would otherwise have ceased to apply) and section 4 (4) of the Requisitioned Houses and Housing (Amendment) Act 1955 (which enables local authorities in England and Wales to pay part of the rent in respect of such dwellings) shall each have effect as if the year mentioned therein were 1966.
6.42 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS LORD HASTINGS moved to leave out all words after "each" and to insert:
"continue to have effect until the end of the year 1965."
The noble Lord said: This is a simple Amendment which I think is self-explanatory, but I felt I needed a little of elucidation of this provision. Clause 5 refers to the Rent Act, 1957, which extended, until March, 1965, the application of the Rent Acts to certain dwellings, and also to the Requisitioned Houses and Housing (Amendment) Act, 1955, under which tenants of requisitioned houses were enabled to continue in that accommodation until next March, 1965, on a lower rent, because the local authority made up the rent to one that was more reasonable to the landlord, either by

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way of a cash bonus or annual payment. Of course the Government faced the position of what is going to happen in 1965, because if these buildings become immediately decontrolled, as they would, the landlord could put up the rent and the local authority would no longer have the power to pay part of the rent for these tenants who perhaps would not be able to afford the full rent. I think that this must be at the back of the Government's mind and it would be a very awkward situation if the tenants had nowhere to go, especially in areas where there is a shortage of housing.
The point of this Amendment is to make sure that this problem is going to be dealt with in the major legislation and not left hanging over. This temporary legislation is going to come to an end at the end of 1965, and I cannot see any reason why this particular legislation on the books affecting requisitioned property or, rather, derequisitioned property, under the special agreement, should be continued until April, 1966. Surely to goodness, it is going to be considered in connection with all the major legislation, and by making it clear that these provisions extend only to the end of 1965 should at the same time make clear the temporary nature of the extension, just as this Bill itself is of a temporary nature; and that before the end of 1965 both the one and the other will be brought together and dealt with in permanent legislation. That is the point of this Amendment, and I hope the noble Lord will think that it is reasonable and will tell me what the Government are going to do about it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 22, leave out from ("each") to end of line 23, and insert ("continue to have effect until the end of the year 1965").—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD MITCHISON: I entirely agree with the noble Lord that it would be a strange state of affairs if we prolonged this particular piece of legislation into 1966 and in the course of legislation in 1965 failed to deal with what was originally a temporary measure. I cannot give him a formal undertaking on this point; I have not been authorised to do so. And I can see the reason for that. The whole of this permanent legislation is under consideration. It involves a lot of changes, and I hope that the
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noble Lord will feel able to accept my assurance that my own common sense, and nothing else, leads me to the conclusion that this matter must be dealt with in the course of that legislation. I do not know if that is the correct form of a Government assurance; it is not really intended to be one, because one does not know the form of the future legislation. I cannot conceive, however, that it would be left out.
The extension was for a period of one year. It was the sort of figure that one takes for a temporary extension. There is a real need for it. If it was not for this extension these provisions would end at the end of March, 1965, and the metropolitan boroughs who are mostly concerned with, this have asked for the extension to be made. I should have thought there was good reason for it for quite a substantial number of families are affected. I see that St. Marylebone, of all respectable boroughs, has, for example, 114; Kensington has 53; Paddington 150; and there are various other boroughs concerned. It is a local matter; some boroughs are much more affected than others. But where the need exists it is quite real and obviously the provisions ought to be extended.
The noble Lord did not in effect say, "You made a bargain with these people and you cannot extend on that account". I do not think he or I would have thought that a very good argument if it were put that way. But I ought to point out that the arrangements made by the boroughs with the owners of the premises were made in pursuance of the 1955 legislation, and at about that time, and that was before the Rent Act, 1957, came into operation. In fact, the changes made by way of decontrol in that Act have made a much more extensive alteration of the original bargain than anything that is proposed here. I hope, therefore, that with that explanation and in those circumstances the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the Amendment; a point, if I may respectfully add, which I more than appreciate.
LORD HASTINGS: I am grateful to the noble Lord. It was my purpose only to add this and to draw it particularly to the attention of the Minister because I thought that he failed rather to take it into sufficient account on Second Reading

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in the other place. He failed rather significantly to give any sort of undertaking that it was going to be dealt with at the same time. I am glad that the noble Lord opposite agrees with me that it is the common-sense thing to do. I wanted to bring it out and make quite sure that this view was put to his right honourable friend the Minister, and not left hanging over. It really must be dealt with. That is the sole purpose of the Amendment and now it has served its purpose I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without Amendment; Report received.

  CAPITAL MURDER CONVICTIONS AND EXECUTIONS
  CAPITAL MURDER CONVICTIONS AND EXECUTIONS
  LIFE SENTENCES FOR MURDER
  LIFE SENTENCES FOR MURDER