Sitting of 16 April 1964

Preamble
The House met a half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Child Care Course (Postgraduates)
    Mr. Abseasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the financial difficulties experienced by postgraduates, including some married with children, who are pursuing the child care course sponsored by his Department, as a result of their grants being subject to a means test based on parental income; and what steps he intends to take to remedy the position, in order to ensure that the child care services will be adequately staffed by trained personnel.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Brooke): The grant scheme for child care students, like the Ministry of Education university students scheme, provides for parental contributions in respect of postgraduate students, and I am aware of no grounds for treating child care students differently in this respect. The number of places on child care officer training courses is progressively increasing, as is the number of applications for training.
    Mr. Abse: Is the Minister aware that there is plenty of precedent for giving grants to postgraduate students without a means test of this kind in so far as they are given, for example, in the D.S.I.R., in the Medical Research Council and in the Agricultural Research Council? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the grievous hardship that is falling on child care workers in Liverpool, in Nottingham and elsewhere? If he seriously means
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    what he said the day before yesterday, that he wants trained child care workers in local authorities, why does he not do something, like other Departments, to remedy the hardship falling on these married people, sometimes, and postgraduate workers in universities?
    Mr. Brooke: The other cases to which the hon. Gentleman refers are research students, but these are people taking professional training following a degree course. There is exactly the same arrangement, as I said, in the case of Ministry of Education students as in the case of child care students. I am indeed sorry that for a period there was delay in the payment of students' travelling expenses, but I am glad to say that the payments have now been brought up to date. There are plenty of people applying, and I do not seriously believe that there exists the severe hardship which the hon. Gentleman implies.

    Poisons Board (Vick 44)
    Mr. George Craddockasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the report of the Poisons Board on Vick 44 has been received; and what action he proposes to take.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. C. M. Woodhouse): At its recent meeting the Poisons Board was informed that the Proprietary Association of Great Britain has recently amended its Code of Standards to provide that no member of the Association shall undertake the distribution to the general public of unsolicited samples of medicines, or issue in connection with the offer of samples of medicines any type of voucher or coupon. In view of this development the Poisons Board has recommended that no further action is necessary and my right hon. Friend has accepted its recommendation.
    Mr. Craddock: May I say that I thank the Minister for the reply which he has given because I am sure that he is fully aware that the pharmacists complain very strongly about this matter and we are now hopeful that it will be handled in a proper fashion?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he says. I

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    hope that it will give him additional reassurance if I add that the substance in question is distributed by a very reputable firm which is a member of the Proprietary Association and will certainly conform to the new rule.

    Traffic Laws (Uniform Enforcement)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects that chief officers of police will have completed their formulation of uniform policies in regard to the enforcement of the traffic laws; and by what means he anticipates that effect will be given to the recommendation of the Royal Commission on the Police that these policies should receive adequate publicity so that the traffic laws can be seen to be consistently enforced throughout the country
    Mr. Brooke: Last May I made special reference to the recommendation of the Royal Commission regarding uniform enforcement of the traffic laws in a general circular commending certain of the Commission's recommendations for immediate adoption. Consultation in a matter of this kind must necessarily be continuous; and the Police Research and Planning Branch in the Home Office is at present carrying out a review which should provide a basis for further discussion with chief constables. The most appropriate form of publicity depends on the circumstances of the particular case.
    Mr. Gresham CookeWill my right hon. Friend speed up this review? With 900,000 prosecutions for motoring offences all ever the country, there is a great lack of uniformity. Is my right hon. Friend aware, for instance, that some counties issue summonses for dangerous and careless driving when they mean to prosecute only in respect of careless driving, and that some areas allow persons to plead guilty by post for minor offences while others do not?
    Mr. Brooke: There is general agreement among chief constables that it is most desirable that there should be uniform policies and views of the law, as far as possible. The question that my hon. Friend mentioned, relating to the forms of charge, is now under consideration by the Home Office and the Ministry of Transport. It involves rather intractable procedural and legal difficulties.

    Police (Notices of Intended Prosecution)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the recommendation of the Royal Commission on the Police that the need for cultivating good relations between the police and the public should be constantly borne in mind by police authorities and chief constables, he will take steps to draw to their attention the desirability of inserting on notices of intended prosecution issued under section 241 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960. an explanatory note to include the statement that receipt of a notice does not necessarily mean that a prosecution will be instituted.
    Mr. Brooke: I appreciate the point made by my hon. Friend, and I will consider whether there is any admire which I cal usefully give to the police about it.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: I thank my right hon. Friend very much. Is he aware that the police very often issue summonses or notices of prosecution, to both parties, one of whom may be a timid and blameless driver? Should not such a party be advised that the notice of prosecution does not necessarily mean that there will be a prosecution?
    Mr. Brooke: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for this suggestion. I recognise that the present practice may cause needless anxiety in cases where the police decide not to prosecute, and I will consider whether the terms of the notice can be modified.
    Mr. Rankin: Did the right hon. Gentleman see in yesterday's Scottish Press the criticism of Chief Constable Merrilees that the attitude of certain newspapers in cases where police are concerned often inflames the mind of the public against the police? What can he do to tone down that attitude?
    Mr. Brooke: I know Chief Constable Merrilees, but I am not responsible for police forces in Scotland.

    Maintenance and Affiliation Orders (Disclosure of Addresses)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the hardship caused to a

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    large number of women and children by the disappearance each year of their husbands and fathers; what machinery is in existence to ease the burdens of those left behind; and if he will take steps to enable assistance to be given to wives to trace missing husbands, drawing on the information that exists in connection with national insurance, medical registers and electoral lists.
    Mr. Woodhouse: My right hon. Friend is aware of the hardship caused to families by men who evade their maintenance obligations. The National Assistance scheme is intended to relieve this hardship to the same extent as hardship resulting from any other cause.
    Arrangements already exist for the disclosure, for the purpose of maintenance and affiliation proceedings, of addresses from social security records he'd centrally by Government Departments. Full details of these arrangements were announced by my right hon. Friend's predecessor on 6th June, 1957, in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers).
    Mr. Dodds: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that despite the bureaucracy with which we are surrounded a deserted wife with a houseful of children ail too often finds herself up against an official iron curtain of secrecy? Does not this serve to encourage many men to run out of their obligations and leave their families to resort to National Assistance? Will he consider the systems which are in operation in the United States and Sweden, and also consider giving financial and practical support to the Salvation Army to develop its Missing Persons Bureau, which has done such a wonderful job in mitigating misery and distress?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I am indeed aware that these painful cases arise. We are always willing to consider the possibility of administrative improvements. I can assure the hon. Member that the social security records, which are very full, are available for this purpose, through the courts, and that is the proper way to proceed.
    Miss Bacon: Is the hon. Member aware that it has come as a surprise to
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    many hon. Members to be told that facilities are already available for giving this information, through the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance? Will he make inquiries of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance to find out how this system is operating, because I feel certain that many hon. Members have come up against the Harrier described by my hon. Friend?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I am glad to have the opportunity given by this Question of drawing attention once again to this facility. In view of what the hon. Lady has said, I will look again at the possibility of drawing wider attention to it.

    Missing Persons
    Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration has been given to compiling a central register of missing persons from the local records kept by chief constables and from all other sources which would establish the numbers of deserting husbands or wives, which would safeguard the legal position of those deserted, or prove helpful to some to readjust their lives by removing uncertainty, and would assist coroners who, under present conditions, experience difficulties as a result of the present failure to identify many bodies.
    Mr. Woodhouse: The Commissioner of Police maintains an index of persons believed to be missing in the Metropolitan Police District and this also contains details of missing persons notified to Scotland Yard by provincial police forces. These records are limited to missing children and young persons and to adults who have disappeared in circumstances which suggest that they may have come to some harm. An index of persons found wandering abroad and bodies found is also maintained at Scotland Yard and this is constantly checked with the missing persons index. My right hon. Friend is not convinced that any extension of the present system is either necessary or practicable.
    Mr. Dodds: Is the Minister aware that for some years the Southwark coroner, Mr. Gordon Davies, has suggested, because of his experiences, that

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    there is a need for a missing persons register on a national scale, which would no doubt help coroners to identify some of the bodies which so often go unidentified?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I was not aware of the point that the hon. Member has made. I will certainly look into it. But at first sight I am not persuaded that a change is necessary. The records to which I have referred, coupled with the police arrangements, provide a very comprehensive facility, and to extend it further into the form of a central record would be a difficult and, I think, impracticable operation, as I can perhaps illustrate by informing the hon. Member that in the Metropolitan Police District alone about 18,000 persons were reported missing during 1963, the great majority of whom turned up again very shortly afterwards.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Is there any obligation upon the various police forces to inform the Commissioner, with a view to having the names of missing persons included in the missing persons index? If not, can my hon. Friend assure us that the missing persons index is 100 per cent effective?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I can never give an assurance that it is 100 per cent. effective, but there is co-operation between the provincial police forces and Scotland Yard in this matter.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the arrangements sometimes break down—that there was a recent case in which they notably broke down and that in the course of the subsequent inquiry the police themselves declared that it was not their policy to treat as missing persons people who may merely have gone away because of some domestic dispute? if that is so, is it not rather idle to say that sample facilities exist to meet such cases as my hon. Friend has described?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I think that I can identify the case to which the hon. Member is referring. As my right hon. Friend informed the House on 25th March, the Metropolitan Police procedure for dealing with missing persons has been revised in the light of that case.
    Mr. Dodds: On a point of order. I beg to give notice that I shall raise this
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    matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.
    Mr. Speaker: It may be difficult because of tonight's Adjournment. I shall have to consider it.

    Bank Raids (Acts of Violence)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State far the Home Department whether he will appoint an independent committee of inquiry into the frequency of raids on banks and other establishments whey acts of violence are committed, and into the additional measures required to provide security against such acts.
    Mr. Brooke: No, Sir. While the primary responsibility for the protection of their property and employees rests with the banks or other establishments, I am satisfied that the police give every assistance. I also look to the Police Research and Planning Branch, which has recently been established at the Home Office, to inquire into serious crime of this kind and to suggest measures to deal with it.
    Mr. Shinwell: Although I do not pretend to be. able to teach police or security officers their business, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not agree, in view of the exceptional number of raids accompanied by violence and the use of lethal weapons—including guns—and the danger to the public as well as to those concerned, who work in banks and other establishments, that the public should be reassured that everything is being done to prevent these things happening, or to deal with them immediately they occur? In the circumstances, in view of the disquiet that exists among the public, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that in inquiry of the kind that I suggest might be worth while?
    Mr. Brooke: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his interest in matter. There is already very close cooperation in these matters, and I put it to the House that rather than have an independent inquiry it is better to proceed in the way that I am proceeding, which is to ask my Police Research and Planning ranch, which is expert in these matters, to give priority to a study of this very question.

    Murders
    Commander Keransasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many murders have been committed by persons previously known to have committed criminal offences of a psychopathic nature since the Homicide Act 1957.
    Mr. Brooke:I regret that this information is not available: offences are not recorded as being of a psychopathic nature.
    Commander Kerans: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is not now necessary to review the whole question of the law dealing with psychopaths and especially the Mental Health Act, 1962? Is the release of these psychopaths by psychiatrists really in the interests of the public? Is not it a shocking thing, as was demonstrated by the Faulkner case which occurred not so long ago? Surely this is not in the interests of the public? Will he review the whole question of the law before the end of this Session?
    Mr. Brooke: The question of the Mental Health Act is really one for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. As my hon. and gallant Friend will know, when an offender is suffering from a psychopathic disorder the courts have power, in certain cases, under the Mental Health Act to order his detention in hospital for mental treatment. At the same time, I do not think that the House would stand for the prolonged detention of all kinds of people who show psychopathic traits in order to guard against the risks of a very small proportion of them committing serious offences.

    Prison Medical Service (Working Party's Report)
    Mr. Abseasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the main recommendations of the Working Party on the Prison Medical Service; and when the Report will be published.
    Mr. Brooke: I would ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the Report, which I hope will be before the end of this month.
    Mr. Abse: May I ask the Home Secretary whether the report will include
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    recommendations concerning the lack of psychiatrists within the prison medical Service and particularly whether it will include recommendations to prevent Occurrences such as in the case of simcox, where the prison medical service On three separate occasions examined the man and on not one of the occasions Was he examined by a doctor holding a diploma in psychological medicine? Is he aware of the deep concern at the isolation of the prison medical service from the National Health Service, and will he give an assurance that recommendations which are made will be carried out?
    Mr. Brooke: I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the Simcox case or the more general matters. I think that it would be wise for the hon. Member, and the House as a whole, to await the publication of this Report, on which occasion I hope to make a statement to the House.

    Low-grade Pulp Magazines (Imports)
    Mr. Hollandasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what has been the result of his consideration of steps to prohibit the import of low-grade pulp magazines containing articles or stories of an erotic nature.
    Mr. Woodhouse: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer considers that the powers of enforcement relating to the importation of obscene matter under the Customs Act are adequate. Difficulties, however, arise on account of the volume of undesirable books and magazines sent to this country, and representations have been made to the authorities of the United States, which is the principal exporting country.
    Mr. Holland: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Since at the present time the courts and the Customs—despite their valiant efforts—seem to be fighting a losing battle, will he bear in mind the possibility of increasing the penalties on the importers to such a degree as to make this trade wholly uneconomic?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I will certainly give consideration to my hon. Friend's suggestion. The most important thing, if it is achievable, is to stop the imports at their source.
    Mr. Fletcher: The fact that there is a great volume ought not to prevent the Home Office from taking effective steps to deal with the matter. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the volume ought not to be an excuse for leaving it to the exporting countries?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I am glad to have the opportunity to add to my previous reply this further point, that the United States Government, which is the Government of the country from which by far the greater part of this literature—if I may so call it-comes, is inhibited by the difficulty that this is in part a matter not of Federal but of State law. That is not a difficulty which we at the Home Office can overcome.

    Murderers (Release on Licence)
    Mr. Wadeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to ensure that when a prisoner serving a life sentence for murder is to be released on licence a thorough medical and psychological examination is always made immediately prior to the proposed date for release.
    Mr. Brooke: Such a prisoner is never released except after full consideration, over an extended period, of his physical and mental health.
    Mr. Wade: Would not the Home Secretary agree that the general public is very disturbed when it hears of a prisoner who has been released after serving a life sentence for murder and who then commits a similar offence? One cannot explain it away by saying that there was a medical examination before release. I wish to be constructive. Does not a recent case demonstrate the need for very much more research into the diagnosis of psychopathic tendencies in prisoners of this kind? Does not it show that the ordinary medical examination before release does not provide an adequate protection?
    Mr. Brooke: We now have the psychiatric prison at Grendon which will be available to us. Although medical examinations are normally undertaken by the prison medical officers in whose care the prisoner has been, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that medical advice is taken from outside consultants when
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    this is necessary. There have been only two cases in this century where a murderer released after sentence to life imprisonment has committed a second murder, and Simcox was one of them.
    Mr. Gardner: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that he would be greatly assisted in determining whether he ought to exercise his discretion and allow prisoners of this kind to be released on licence if he were to set up a sort of standing advisory committee of medical experts and others which would be able to give him advice rather than continue the present system where his advice comes, more or less, from indiscriminate sources?
    Mr. Brooke: The advice does not come from indiscriminate sources. It is quite possible to get the advice of outside consul ants when necessary. I ask the House to await the publication of the Report on the prison medical services which is relevant to all this.
    Mr. Abse: Is it not the fact—it was told to this House in answer to a Question of mine by the Home Secretary—that in the case of Simcox there was at the last trial no outside opinion obtained at all and that the opinion given was given by a prison medical officer who had no psychiatric diploma at all? Is not it high time that serious regard was given to the need to have inside the prison medical service people who have at least the diploma of psychological medicine to give reports of this kind?
    Mr. Brooke: There are other qualifications which are necessary besides a diploma in psychological medicine. The doctors who examined Simcox were very experienced men, but the fact remains the after his discharge from prison he lived a law-abiding life for five years end then, tragically, he committed another murder. It was a most exceptional case and I take it very seriously.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the Answer given by his hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary a few minutes ago to Question No. 18? His hon. Friend said that it was not he practice to classify offences by reference to their psychopathic nature. Would not it be a good thing if that became the practice, and would not it meet part of this difficulty?
    Mr. Brooke: I have myself set up a committee to consider and report on the method of collecting and collating criminal statistics.

    Approved Schools (Boys)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the success rate for senior, intermediate and junior boys, respectively, released from approved schools in 1960.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Miss Mervyn Pike): This information is not yet available.
    Mr. Boyden: Were not last year's figures entirely unsatisfactory? Were not the figures, in fact, very seriously worse than in 1949? Does not the hon. Lady's Department take some discredit for this, inasmuch as there are nothing like enough places for specialists in approved schools and that the conditions for housemasters regarding both pay and promotion are still far from satisfactory?
    Miss Pike: We take these figures very seriously. I think that the hon. Gentleman will be interested in the figures which my right hon. Friend hopes to publish before the Summer recess.
    Miss Bacon: Is the hon. Lady aware that 65 per cent. of the inmates of approved schools for girls are there not because they have committed offences but because they are in need of care and protection, and that most of them have had offences committed against them? How does she measure the success rate in these cases? Does not she consider that the time has come for a reappraisal of the efficacy of the approved school system as a whole?
    Miss Pike: The last part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question goes wider than the Question on the Order Paper. We are looking into the method of assessing the statistics to see whether we can get a more realistic yardstick of success.
    Mr. Boydenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what trends in the success rate for boys entering approved schools in 1956 have been discovered by his research unit's statistical studies.
    Miss Pike: This study is providing information not previously available about failures during training and the relative success rates of schools of different kinds and boys of different ages. It cannot, however, provide information about trends since it deals with only one year's entrants.
    Mr. Boydon: Why has it taken so long to set up this statistical inquiry? The work of the Howard League and of my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Sir G. Benson) and Dr. Mannheim has been directed to this particular sphere for 10 or 12 years. What is the present staff of the unit? Is it satisfactory to cover the whole problem?
    Miss Pike: As the hon. Member knows, we are always trying to find new ways to discover the underlying causes in this field. I do not accept that it has taken a long time to set up this particular study group, but I agree that it is important to go ahead as quickly as possible in finding realistic yardsticks.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is it not, unfortunately, true that the difference in success rates at different places of detention is due to the different types of offender sent there and not to the effectiveness of different types of detention?
    Miss Pike: That is another question.

    General Election
    Mr. Liptonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Her Majesty's Government will not declare the day on which the General Election takes place a Bank Holiday.
    Mr. Woodhouse: My right hon. Friend sees no reason to think that this would either facilitate voting or secure a higher poll.
    Mr. Lipton: Do not the Government want as many people as possible to vote in the next General Election? Will the Government take note of what happens in many other countries where the day of the election is a Sunday, or certainly not a working day? Does not experience show in those countries that that very fact helps to ensure a higher percentage poll?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I do not think we can draw conclusions for this country necessarily from the experience of other

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    countries. In the last four General Elections, in all cases operating under the same conditions, the polls were very high. The poll was higher in 1959 than in 1955. I should also explain to the hon. Member that under the existing law, for legal reasons of a highly technical character, if the General Election day were to be declared a Bank Holiday it would probably be illegal to hold a General Election.
    Mr. Fletcher: May we take it, therefore, that the General Election will not be held on a Sunday?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I do not think the hon. Member can draw any precise conclusions from the remarks I have made this afternoon.

    Mr. Herman Woolf (Inquiry)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now publish the evidence given at the inquiry into the death of Mr. Woolf so as to enable the conclusions reached by Mr. Skelhorn to be related to the facts adduced in evidence.
    Mr. Taverneasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make available to Members of Parliament a transcript of the evidence given before the Skelhorn Tribunal inquiring into the case of the late Mr. Herman Woolf.
    Mr. Brooke: No, Sir. This would be inconsistent with the decision to hold the inquiry in private.
    Mr. Swingler: Was not the purpose of this inquiry to allay public anxiety? In view of the fact that in his Report Mr. Skelhorn made strictures on a number of individual police officers and implied criticisms of hospital officers, in fairness to those individuals concerned and to enable the public to judge, what is the reason for the right hon. Gentleman withholding the evidence which people could read for themselves?
    Mr. Brooke: It is because the inquiry was held in private. I thought that a private inquiry was more likely to lead to a full and frank examination of all the evidence. Having appointed a very eminent Queen's Counsel to hold an independent inquiry and having published his Report in full—;as I promised
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    to do—I am not prepared to take the matter any further.
    Mr. Swingler: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give not ice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Elections (Identification of Candidates)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to enable voters at local and national elections to identify candidates by allowing the inclusion on ballot papers of political party affiliations.
    Mr. Lagdenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the confusion of the electorate, if he will introduce legislation to make provision, if so desired by the candidates, for an indication of their political party to appeal on the ballot sheet at all elections.
    Mr. Woodhouse: The answer is No, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aw Ire that that is a very unsatisfactory and reactionary answer? Does he realise that in the London elections there were on occasion 16 or 17 names on the ballot paper and in many cases people voted for Tories and Communists together? Does he think that those people were knowingly voting for those candidates and therefore perhaps confirming the views of Mr. Khrushchev some years ago when he said that if he was in this country he would be a Tory? Seriously, does the hon. Gentleman recognise that in circumstances such as we have in this country it would to invaluable for the voter and for the political parties concerned to have the name of the official party clearly stated on the ballot paper?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I must leave the hon. Member to draw his own conclusions about the way in which his friends, if they were his friends, voted in the London election. The G.L.C. election was this year conducted on a whole borough basis and electors were then voting for two, three or even four councillors together, but as soon as the Parliamentary Boundary Commission has reviewed the constituencies of London

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    it is intended that each London borough shall be divided into single G.L.C. election areas electing single councillors. As to national elections, the question was examined by the Carr Committee on Electoral Reform in 1948 and the present practice was unanimously endorsed by the parties in the House at that time.
    Sir D. Glover: Will my hon. Friend have another look at this matter? The situation is not satisfactory. Whether we like it or not, in 99 cases out of 100 people today vote for a party and they want to know the names of those for whom they are expected to vote when they get the ballot paper. It is very confusing when all that they find on the ballot paper is a list of names.
    Mr. Woodhouse: I am aware of the possibility of difficulties arising, but my hon. Friend must also see the difficulties to which this suggestion would lead. For example, it would be impossible to prevent a candidate putting on his nomination paper the label "Conservative", Labour "or" "Liberal" when in fact he does not belong to the party bearing that name.
    Mr. MacColl: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it would be possible to allow the returning officer discretion to refuse to put on the ballot paper a title which was ostensibly calculated to deceive? Is he aware that what he said about the Greater London Council is correct but not in respect of all the wards within Greater London boroughs, because many of them will have up to six or more places to fill?
    Mr. Woodhouse: The House is no doubt aware that from time to time my right hon. Friend receives many suggestions for electoral reform. There are a considerable number being considered and processed now. It would be wise to wait until after the General Election before any further reform was attempted.

    Hooliganism
    Mr. Liptonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to strengthen the law dealing with hooligan behaviour.
    Mr. N. Pannellasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the growing tendency
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    to hooliganism, he will introduce emergency legislation increasing the penalties for this type of offence, which casts an unjustifiable slur on the generally law-abiding youth of this country.
    Mr. Brooke: I know of no evidence which suggests that existing powers are inadequate to enable such behaviour to be dealt with. For example, for malicious damage exceeding £5 in value there is a maximum sentence of two years' imprisonment, or five years if the offence was committed by night; for carrying an offensive weapon in a public place there is a maximum of two years' imprisonment; and for using insulting words or behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace there is a maximum of 12 months.
    Mr. Lipton: Whatever the actual law on the subject may be, is not the Home Secretary aware that in recent years the penalties imposed for acts of hooliganism and vandalism have been excessively lenient? What does he propose to do about that?
    Mr. Brooke: I am sure that the hon. Member is equally aware that my business is to recommend to Parliament any changes that seem desirable in the maximum penalties, but it would be wholly wrong for me, or any other member of the Government, to make suggestions to magistrates or judges as to the particular sentences they impose.
    Mr. N. Pannell: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that the problem could be met if there were minimum sentences instead of maximum sentences, involving payment for damage done? Will he also consider effective action in the case of mass hooliganism, such as the use of fire hoses? If he has no powers in this respect, will he seek them?
    Mr. Brooke: I do not know about fire hoses, but if someone is prosecuted under the Criminal Justice Act and is convicted the penalty may be a fine of £20 or sentence of three months imprisonment and, in addition, an order to pay compensation for the damage caused.
    Sir T. Moore: If, as my right hon. Friend has said, the law is adequate to deal with this mass hooliganism, how

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    is it that it continues and increases? Someone is not administering the law, that is all.
    Mr. Brooke: As I have said, it would be wholly wrong if members of the Government were to seek to interfere with the discretion of the judiciary in these ratters. I think that today's events have shown that members of the judiciary are not afraid of imposing deterrent sentences.

    Commonwealth Immigrants
    Mr. N. Pannellasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the net influx of Commonwealth immigrants from 1st July, 1963, to the last available date; how many of these came from Asia, Africa and the West Indies, including British Guiana; and how this latter figure compares with that for the same period after the coming into force of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act.
    Mr. Brooke: From 1st July, 1963, to 29th February, 1964, the net inward movement of Commonwealth citizens subject to control under Part I of the Act was 43,861. For the same period, the net inward movement from those territories in Asia, Africa and the West Indies—including British Guiana for which separate figures are available amounted to 38,737. The figure corresponding to this for 1962–63 was 11,540.
    Mr. Pannell: Do not these figures indicate that the situation is again getting out of hand? May I ask my right hon. Friend to cooperate with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to ensure that the strictest limitation is placed on immigrants until the present numbers have been fully absorbed and integrated and the difficulties and problems of housing and education and other matters have been overcome?
    Mr. Brooke: I keep in close touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour over this. The rate of issue of vouchers is very carefully controlled. My hon. Friend will appreciate that something like half the numbers that I mentioned are dependants of persons who are already here, and I think that the whole House would agree that the dependants of people already here should be admitted freely.

    Register of Electors
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to enable him to give directions to electoral registration officers regarding corrections to the Register of Electors.
    Mr. Woodhouse: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend thinks it is important that the register, once published, should be final.
    Mr. Godman Irvine: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a case in my constituency where somebody has been excluded from the register entirely as a result of an error made in the offices of the local council? Would he not agree that in such cases some remedy should be afforded, and would he not further agree that this at least is something which should be on the list of things which he said were under consideration in the Home Office?
    Mr. Woodhouse: I am aware of the case that my hon. Friend has mentioned. I am also aware that such cases arise from time to time, though fortunately they are extremely few. The fact is that my right hon. Friend has certain powers to make regulations and to give directions under the Representation of the People Act, 1949, but Home Secretaries have taken the view since that Act was passed that these powers should not be used and could not be used in cases of this kind and that the register once published should be treated as final.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is an opportunity to make corrections to the draft register? Would be consider giving greater publicity to that opportunity, perhaps by radio announcements, so that people would use that method of getting their names on if by any chance they had been missed out?
    Mr. Woodhouse: The hon. Member is quite ht. That is a consideration to which I will certainly give attention.

    Homosexuality
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he propose; to introduce legislation to

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    implement the Wolfenden recommendations on homosexuality when practised between consenting parties and in private.
    Mr. Brooke: I have no present plans for legislation.
    Sir T. Moore: Will my right hon. Friend recall the case of a young man of 25 and about to be married who was accused of having committed one act of indecency 10 years earlier when he was about 16 and as a result he lost his job and lost his bride? Surely something must be done to prevent this sort of thing happening again.
    Mr. Brooke: This is a very important matter but it is essentially a matter in which the Government must take account of the climate of public and Parliamentary opinion. My hon. Friend will remember that a Motion calling for the implementation of the Wolfenden Committee's recommendations was heavily defeated on a free vote in the House in 1960. I have no evidence that there has been a material change in the balance of opinions since then.

    LORD PRIVY SEAL (SPEECH)
    Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Lord Privy Seal at Manchester on Saturday, 4th April on economic matters represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Privy Seal did not make any new statement of Government policy in his speech.
    Mr. Wyatt: That was a very important announcement, because in that speech the Lord Privy Seal referred—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] Is the Prime Minister aware—;to put it as a question to satisfy his baying supporters—that in that speech the Lord Privy Seal referred to an incomes policy? Does he remember that he was a member of the Government two years ago when the Lord Privy Seal initiated the policy of rejecting arbitration agreements? does that mean that the Prime Minister still stands by the Lord Privy Seal in rejecting arbitration agreements?
    The Prime Minister: It is very extraordinary what different interpretations can be put on the same speech. I read right through it and on the whole I thought that my right hon. Friend was saying that if a Labour Government came in there would be a terrible economic mess.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the Prime Minister aware that some of us have long been suspicious that there is some collusion between Conservative and Labour Parties in certain matters? Does the right hon. Gentleman pay the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) week after week to perform this very unpleasant task of raking up into daylight obscure Government speeches? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the Lord Privy Seal that one of the criticisms which can be made of the Conservative Party is that it is too anxious for perfection?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. As a result of the Questions of the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) I have had to read a great many of my colleagues speeches and they have all been very refreshing and very much to the point. I hope that the hon. Member for Bosworth will go on with this exercise because I think it pays.
    Mr. Wyatt: The Prime Minister said that there was nothing new in the speech. Will he answer the Question? Does he agree with the Lord Privy Seal that arbitration agreements in principle ought to be rejected?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. My right hon. and learned Friend never said that and I would not have agreed with him if he had. As far as my reading of the speech is concerned, this was part of the speech but not a major part.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the Prime Minister aware that whether the Lord Privy Seal said it or not, he did it? Does he stand by the Lord Privy Seal's action in breaking arbitration agreements?
    The Prime Minister: I stand by the Lord Privy Seal's actions in all circumstances. He is a valued and respected colleague and he did not say what the hon. Member for Bosworth attributes to him in this Question.
    Mr. Wilson—
    Mr. Speaker: I am a little concerned about where we are getting to with this variety of questions, among other things because it would technically oblige the Chair to read all the speeches to find out what the bounds were.

    OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH
    Mr. Pavittasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Secretary for Occupational Health to be in charge of a new Government department which will incorporate the work in this field at present undertaken by the Ministers of Labour and of Health and the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Pavitt: Is the Prime Minister aware that last year we lost 271, million working days through mental illness alone and a further 31 million days through stress and circulatory diseases? In these circumstances, is it not about time that the Government took some initiative, if not on these lines? Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate that the Government will do something to implement the Convention which they accepted in 1959 and put forward by the that an occupational health service should be established?
    The Prime Minister: We try to do this, as the hon. Member knows, through legislation. We try to meet the basic requirements. The Factories Acts and regulations require medical examination of young workers in factories. I think that the hon. Member knows that. My right hon. Friend is going to discuss the whole matter with the Industrial Health Advisory Committee on 12th May. I see exactly what the hon. Member has asked and I have a good deal of sympathy with him, but I think that on the whole our existing practices deal with the situation reasonably well.
    Mr. Pavitt: In view of the fact that we are losing for every one day of strikes about 55 days from illness in industry, would it not be a good idea if the right hon. Gentleman had consultations with the people concerned in the three Departments, and particularly those doing excellent work in the Ministry
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    of Labour, to get some kind of coordination and to take some initiative?
    The Prime Minister: Of course, we will have consultations. My right hon. Friend is going to deal with this matter in the Industrial Health Advisory Committee. If the hon. Member has any particular suggestions to make I shall be glad to hear them. I am in some sympathy with his question.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Brockwey.
    Mr. Brockway: May I put another supplementary question—
    Mr. Speaker: Frankly, I was having regard to the next Question.

    YEMENI REPUBLICAN FORT (R.A.F. ATTACK)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Prime Minister on what grounds he authorised the bombing of Harib in Yemeni territory by the Royal Air Force on 29th March, 1964.
    The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) on 9th April.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have not read the Answer, although I have read other Answers which have been given? However, in view of the very serious consequence an public opinion in Arab countries, and particularly in Libya with whom we are now negotiating, will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that before this kind of thing happens again it will not merely be reported to the Security Council but we will ask the Security Council for a debate and a decision?
    The Prime Minister: First of all, I hope this thing will not happen again. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] There is no possible excuse for the Yemenis to overfly our frontier with the Yemen or to make attacks over the frontier. There is no possible excuse for that. Only a day after the Security Council debate we had to complain to the Security Council a id to the Secretary-General because if were had been another overflight. I think it is well to warn the Yemeni Government that this kind of

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    thing cannot continue. The Security Council and the United Nations must protect us and help us, which is what we want, to demarcate the frontier between the Yemen and the Aden Federation.
    Mr. Hale: In view of the helpful answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave, in one respect, would he say specificially whether it is the view of Her Majesty's Government that they have the right to exercise reprisals in the form of the bombing of other countries without any declaration of war, and is this the policy that is going to be put before the electors?
    The Prime Minister: That is not a very helpful question, if I may say so, in response to a helpful answer. What we have is a treaty under which we are obliged to defend the Aden Federation, and the Aden Federation has been subject to constant attack. My whole purpose is to arrive at a settlement between the Yemen and the Aden Federation, and the first thing to do is to demarcate the frontier.
    Mr. A. Royle: Will my right hon. Friend raise in the Security Council the bombing of Yemeni villages by Egyptian aeroplanes, which has gone on for the last six months?
    The Prime Minister: I have before now called attention to the double standards which operate in this case.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no British person who attended, as I did, the Security Council debate on this matter could help feeling profoundly disturbed by and extremely critical of the Government's action? Is he aware that, quite apart from the general principle which my hon. Friend mentioned, this again gave opportunities to our enemies and put a strain on our friends out of all proportion to anything that it may have achieved?
    The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman must take account of the fact that we have a treaty by which we are obliged to defend the Aden Federation. If there are air attacks across the frontier which cannot be met in any other way, I do not know what the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends in similar circumstances would have done, but he must realise that if attacks from
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    the Yeminis are allowed to proceed without any answer to them at all, the whole of the Aden Federation loses faith in Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Grimond: While accepting for the moment the Prime Minister's argument that the Yemenis should not transgress the frontier and that we have a treaty obligation, may I ask whether he can assure the House that this action has done any good? Has it not, in fact, played into the hands of the Egyptians who are the people we want to stop encouraging the Yemenis to transgress the frontier? Also has it not removed from us the argument presented by the hon. Member for Richmond, Surrey (Mr. A. Royle) which is that the Yemenis have been bombing dissident tribesmen in their own territory with napalm bombs'? Have the Government raised this matter in the United Nations? Would that not be a far more useful exercise than giving a propaganda bonus to the very people whom we want to prevent encouraging the Yemenis?
    The Prime Minister: The United Nations are perfectly well aware of the fact that incendiary bombs have been used many times inside the Yemen by the Egyptian Air Force which is at the disposal of the Yemeni Government. This is said to be a matter of internal politics in the Yemen and not a matter of external aggression. That is not my interpretation, but it is the interpretation of others. I think we had really better, as a House, now concentrate on trying to get the United Nations to demarcate the frontier so that incidents from either side will be avoided.

    COMMONWEALTH PRIMEMINISTERS' MEETING
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Prime Minister when the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference will now meet: and what will be its agenda.
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the Prime Minister how many Prime Ministers of other Commonwealth countries have now agreed to the holding of a Prime Ministers' conference in July.
    The Prime Minister: I am glad to say that, as the result of my consultations with other Commonwealth Heads

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    of Government, there is general agreement that our next meeting should take place in the first half of July. I will inform the House as soon as precise dates have been settled. We shall shortly be discussing the agenda with other Commonwealth Governments. But, as hon. Members will know, it has never been our custom to reveal details of this.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the Prime Minister aware that the whole House, I believe, will welcome that announcement? Could he say whether the Governments of Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia, which will soon become independent, will be invited to send representatives to the Prime Ministers' conference? Could he say whether the increasingly unrepresentative Government of Southern Rhodesia will be invited to send a representative? Could he confirm that Southern Rhodesia will be one of the subjects discussed and, if so, whether the crisis in British Guiana will also be on the agenda?
    The Prime Minister: As far as the last two parts of that question are concerned, as I have said, we never discuss our agenda in public. As to the question of Southern Rhodesia, the new Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia has not so far asked to be present. As far as Nyasaland is concerned, it will achieve independence, I think, on almost the day before the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' meeting is due to meet. A formal invitation to attend cannot be issued with after independence. I need not underline the word "formal", I think.
    Mr. Bottomley: Is it not a fact that in the Constitution of Southern Rhodesia provision is made for ultimate African majority rule? Bearing this in mind, will the Prime Minister consult the other Prime Ministers with a view to inviting to London the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia and the African national leaders to discuss the problem so that peace might reign?
    The Prime Minister: This is a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' meeting which discusses world affairs, the economic development of the Commonwealth and other broad questions. How far detailed questions of the Commonwealth
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    and matters of that kind will be discussed I cannot say.
    Mr. Goodhew: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is in the interests of Commonwealth unity that the utmost tolerance towards the internal policies of one member of the Commonwealth by another should be allowed? Will my right hon. Friend impress upon other members of the Commonwealth that it is far better that there should be no discussion of any internal or domestic policies if there is to be Commonwealth unity?
    The Prime Minister: In Commonwealth conferences we do not discuss internal problems and matters concerning Commonwealth Governments. That is quite understood.

    KOREAN WAR (OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS)
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister when he intends to authorise the publication of official documents relating to British participation in the Korean War.
    The Prime Minister: There is no plan to publish these documents before they become available for public use at the end of the 50-year closed period imposed by the Public Record Act of 1958.
    Mr. Henderson: Would not the Prime Minister agree that British troops rendered conspicuous service in the Korean campaign, and will he take this opportunity of repudiating the statement recently attributed to the late General MacArthur that this country betrayed United Nations secrets to Communist China?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, I am glad that the rig it hon. and learned Gentleman asked this question because it gives me the opportunity to repudiate the statement which has already been denied by the United States Government.
    Mr. Shinwell: In view of the very welcome announcement which he has just made, will the right hon. Gentleman make simile r representations to President Johnson in order to remove any doubts in the minds of American citizens?
    The Prime Minister: I do not see why I should make representations to President Johnson when his Government have already denied the accuracy of these statements.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: If it is not possible to release official documents, could we, perhaps, have an official history of the part played by our forces in Korea? Official histories have been written at times when the official documents had not yet been released.
    The Prime Minister: I should like to consider what the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. H. Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 20TH APRIL—Conclusion of the general debate on the Budget Resolutions and the Economic Situation.>
TUESDAY, 21ST APRIL, WEDNESDAY, 22ND APRIL, and THURSDAY, 23RD APRIL—Resale Prices Bill
Committee stage.
Also, on Tuesday, the Report stage of the Budget Resolutions.
FRIDAY, 24TH APRIL—Private Members's Bills.
MONDAY, 27TH APRIL—The proposed business will be:
Consideration of private Members' Motions until seven o'clock.
Afterwards, debate on an Opposition Motion on the Draft Order in Council on the British Guiana Constitution.
Mr. Wilson: Will the Leader of the House say what plans he has for an early debate on the Special Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Ferranti question?
Also, will he say when he intends to provide Government time to debate the Government's dithering on the atomic nuclear reactor programme and the gross failures of the Government in regard to the maritime reactor?
Mr. Lloyd: I do not, of course, accept the right hon. Gentleman's epithets or descriptions. I shall consider the possibility of debate on these matters. The Report of the Public Accounts Committee was, I think, published only at eleven o'clock this morning. I think that we have, according to precedent, two days still available for discussion of Reports of the Estimates Committee and Public Accounts Committee. I shall certainly consider how a debate on that matter can be fitted into the programme, and r shall consider the right hon. Gentleman's other point, also.
Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that he made a slight error at the beginning of his answer and that, in fact, the two days which remain are, I believe, the property of the Estimates Committee?
I have two other questions. First, has my right hon. and learned Friend any news for me about the issues which arise in connection with Statutory Instruments? Secondly, would it not be a pity if a Report of a Select Committee became a political document? If there is to be a debate on the Ferranti question, should it not be done separately and apart from the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, bearing in mind that both the Estimates Committee and the Public Accounts Committee work entirely on non-party lines or all-party lines call it what one likes—and party politics do not enter into their discussions and considerations at all?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that my hon. Friend is absolutely right in what he said towards the end of his question.
As regards his first remark, I have been looking into this matter. I think that it was my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary who suggested to the House that it should have three days for debates on Reports of the Public Accounts Committee and the Estimates Committee. I admit that, by convention, up to now, it has been the practice to have one for the Public Accounts Committee and two for the Estimates Committee, but I do not think that this is an absolutely established rule. That is why I said that it was a matter which we could discuss.
My hon. Friend referred also to the question of a debate on the Report of

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the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments. I hope that that debate will take place at ten o'clock next Monday.
Mr. Wade: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say when a debate will take place on the White Paper on Monopolies and Restrictive Practices?
Mr. Lloyd: Not next week, but as soon as it can be managed.
Dame Irene Ward: When my right hon. and learned Friend is planning the future programme, will he refrain front paying too much attention to the time which is demanded by the Opposition, but bear in mind that there are one or two very important Bills which this side of the House would like to be considered and put on the Statute Book before the next General Election? If he would like me to tell him what they are, I should be delighted to do so.
Mr. Lloyd: I should be delighted if my hon. Friend would come to see me some time.
Mr. Shinwell: Will the Leader of the House make a rather less ambiguous and more specific pronouncement on when the right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport will make the promised statement on the improper intervention by the American Maritime Commission in British shipping?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that I am right in saying that there was a recent Written Answer on that matter in which my right hon. Friend revealed that representations have now been made to the United States Government. No reply has yet been received. I shall convey to my right hon. Friend what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I think it important that a statement should be made as soon as there is further information to give.
Dame Irene Ward: My Question yesterday.
Mr. G. Johnson Smith: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there are many hon. Members who wish to debate the South-East Study? Could he undertake to arrange a debate soon?
Mr. Lloyd: I quite agree that this is a very suitable candidate for a debate.
Mr. Albu: May I press the right hon. and learned Gentleman about a debate on the nuclear power programme, in view of the absolute inadequacy of the White Paper which was published yesterday, which has been described today by Lord Coleraine as complacent, misleading and evasive?
Mr. Lloyd: I have already said that I shall consider the possibility of a debate.
Mr. W. Yates: Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall that, last week, I drew his attention to the debate in the Security Council on South-West Arabia, and will he take note of the Question on the Order Paper with reference to Her Majesty's Government's policy in South-West Arabia? In view of our enormous commitments there, is it not right and proper that the House should have a debate on this subject very soon?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that, within the comparatively near future, there should be a debate on foreign affairs; I certainly hope to arrange for one.
Mr. G. Thomas: Has the Leader of the House seen on the Order Paper the Motion in the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself concerning the sale of land in the capital of Wales? Is he aware that a Scotsman has sold a slice of Cardiff to an English site development company? Does he realise that there is considerable feeling on this matter in the Principality? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give us the opportunity to debate the Motion and link with it the question of leasehold by the same absentee ground landlord?
[That this House, noting with concern the continued increase in the cost of land in Cardiff at a rate much above the national average, and noting the recent highly programme sale by an absentee ground landlord, who had done nothing to increase the value of the land, of an important half-acre site in central Cardiff to a London property company with no other interest in Cardiff, calls for early legislation to prevent any further such exploitation of the current land shortage.]
Mr. Lloyd: I am not quite certain of the circumstances of the case to which the hon. Gentleman refers, whether this is a site which was offered to the Cardiff

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Corporation which it turned down or refused to buy not very long ago; but I shall discuss the matter with the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. McMaster: In arranging the future timetable, will my right hon. and learned Friend see whether he can give Government time for at least a half-day debate on Northern Ireland, as was done last year?
Mr. Lloyd: I shall consider that suggestion, too.
Mr. Snow: Has the Leader of the House seen the Motion on the Order Paper, standing in the names of hon. Members on both sides of the House, on the subject of intensive animal husbandry and the recent public disclosure of nauseating practices in connection with factory farming?
[That this House notes with disquiet the conditions under which large numbers of animals and birds are now reared intensively for human consumption and the practice of supplementing their diets with non-nutritive additives; and urges Her Majesty's Government to consider whether steps should not now be taken to regulate some of these methods of husbandry.]
Mr. Lloyd: I cannot offer any prospect of a debate next week on that Motion.
Mr. Milne: Apart from the Resale Prices Bill, what else will the House be discussing between now and the General Election?
Mr. Lloyd: Quite a lot of things.
Mr. Holt: In view of the decision to put off the election until the autumn, is it now the Government's intention to introduce in this Session of Parliament a Bill relating to monopolies, mergers and restrictive practices?
Mr. Lloyd: The first thing to do on that matter is to debate the White Paper, which we shall find time to do.
Mr. Rankin: In view of the evident desire in the House to discuss a great number of interesting topics, will the Leader of the House consider reducing the length of the Recess at Whitsun?
Mr. Lloyd: No announcement has yet been made about any Recess at Whitsun.
Mr. Parkin: With reference to Motion No. 95 on the Order Paper, I am not asking for a debate next week on what ought to be a non-controversial matter, but will the Leader of the House give an assurance that he is inquiring, through the usual, and unusual, channels whether this formula is acceptable? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that, while this formula is intended to produce something without constitutional problems and without unacceptable precedents, it is very much ad hominem? The House is very glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) likes being among us and it ought to be able to say officially that it feels that this situation can be prolonged as long as the right hon. Gentleman wishes it?
[That, mindful of changes in the role of the peerage in public affairs, this House considers that the hospitality it can extend to distinguished ex-Members of the Commons should not be linked with membership of another place, and resolves to offer to former First Lords of the Treasury privileges, including use of refreshment facilities and a special gallery near to the Bar of the Chamber, similar to those available to ex-M.P. Members of the House of Lords.]
Mr. Lloyd: I have studied the terms of the Motion in the name of the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends. There probably is a general feeling in the House that it would wish to mark its appreciation of the services of people such as those to whom the Motion refers, but the exact method is, I think, for consultation, as the hon. Gentleman suggested, not only through the usual channels but also, possibly, through unusual ones.
Mr. Lipton: If not next week, can the Leader of the House say when the House is likely to receive the report of the Committee of Privileges?
Mr. Lloyd: The Committee has had several meetings. It is trying to get on with its task as expeditiously as possible, but I cannot say when its report will be received.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this morning, at Geneva, the American

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Government made a very important proposal about freezing the production of nuclear missiles? As the Foreign Secretary has now gone to the bottom of the list for Questions, will the Government consider making a statement so that the House can discuss this vital matter at an early date?
Mr. Lloyd: I will certainly consider the point which the hon. Member has made.

PENAL POLICY (ROYAL COMMISSION)
The Prime Minister: With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about penal policy.
In 1959, the Government published a White Paper, Penal Practice in a Changing Society, which discussed the greatly increased volume of post-war crime and the measures taken to deal with it, and forecast developments in the penal system and building programme over the next few years. It emphasised the need to intensify research into crime and its causes, and into the effectiveness of methods of treatment. It acknowledged that existing penal practice had developed piecemeal and empirically over a long period in response to experience and the pressure of current problems; and it looked forward to a time when, with growing knowledge, it would be possible to conduct a fundamental review of penal methods and of the philosophy on which they are based.
The Government are today publishing a White Paper, The War Against Crime in England and Wales, which is a survey of the progress made in this field since 1959. Copies of the White Paper will he in the Vote Office at four o'clock.
In the light of that progress, the Government have decided that the time has now come for the fundamental review foreshadowed in 1959, and that its importance is such that it should be carried out by a Royal Commission. I have, therefore, recommended to the Queen, and Her Majesty has been pleased to approve, the setting up of a Royal Commission, with the following terms of reference:
"In the light of modern knowledge of crime and its causes and of modern penal practice here and abroad, to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment
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and treatment of offenders in England and Wales; to report how far they are realised by the penalties and methods of treatment available to the courts, and whether any changes in these, or in the arrangements and responsibility for selecting the sentences to be imposed on particular offenders, are desirable: to review the work of the services and institutions dealing with offenders and the responsibility for their administration: and to make recommendations."
I will announce later the names of the chairman and members.
It is the Government's intention to ask the Royal Commission to give first priority, in its survey, to offenders under 21 and their treatment.
Mr. G. Brown: May I, on behalf of this side of the House, welcome the setting up of the Royal Commission? Will the Prime Minister note that it has been delayed for quite a long time, that there a re various other parts of our legal code and legal practice in which reforms are generally agreed to be overdue and necessary, and that in welcoming this proposal it must not be taken that it inhibits any incoming Government in malting reforms in those parts?
The Prime Minister: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not anticipate any incoming Government other than the one that I lead. That is a different matter.
Sir T. Moore: I think that we are all agreed in welcoming the setting up of a Royal Commission on a subject about which everyone has been deeply worried for a long time. My right hon. Friend mentioned specifically England and Wales. While admitting that there is very little crime in Scotland, there is some, and I am wondering why my right hon. Friend omitted Scotland in his review of the Royal Commission's duties.
The Prime Minister: I think that the answer to my hon. Friend is that a large part of the Royal Commission's field has already been covered by what is called Lord Kilbrandon's Committee for Scotland This will not prevent any finding of the Royal Commission for England and Wales from being adapted for Scotland if that is thought to be necessary.
Mr. Woodburn: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the terms of reference do not exclude the prevention

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of crime? They seem to deal with the punishment of crime and especially with people under 21. Is it not very important to consider how to prevent crime, and, since the punishment of juveniles is very often considered to be a means of training them to be good citizens, should it not be considered whether educational Departments should be brought into the whole question of the prevention of crime and of educating people to be good citizens?
The Prime Minister: I think that the terms of reference include an inquiry into the causes of crime. This may lead the Royal Commission to make recommendations. The field is very wide.
Miss Bacon: When the right hon. Gentleman says that he will ask the Royal Commission to give priority to those under 21 years of age, does he mean that he will suggest to it that it should issue an early interim report on this question?
The Prime Minister: Obviously, as the hon. Lady knows, I cannot say how early this would be, but this might be a possibility. It is for the Royal Commission to decide whether it will be able to do this.
Mr. C. Royle: In view of the fact that the deliberations of Royal Commissions in general take a very long time, and since this matter is very urgent, will the Prime Minister impress on the chairman of the Royal Commission, when he is selected, the desirability of reporting as early as possible?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Lubbock: Noting that the terms of reference of the Royal Commission include the treatment of offenders, may I ask the Prime Minister whether this means that the Royal Commission will be required to review the Report of Mr. Justice Barry's committee on aftercare? Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether any legislation resulting from Mr. Justice Barry's recommendations is intended for this Parliament as foreshadowed by the Home Secretary on 3rd December, and whether the Royal Commission will consider the very important subject of workshop space in prisons?
The Prime Minister: The answer to the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question is "Yes". In answer to the earlier part, we intend to implement the report, but not in this Parliament.
Mr. Hale: Will the Prime Minister say—one hears these words without fully appreciating them—whether the terms of reference of the Royal Commission are sufficiently wide to make possible consideration of the design and location of modern prisons; the disposal of older prisons; the encouragement of the classification of prisoners on the basis of the possibility of redemption; the question of the continued use of prisons for what is virtually imprisonment for debt; and the unfortunate use of penal institutions for the reception of people suffering from mental ill health?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has put quite a number of questions into one supplementary. The answer to all his questions, as far as I have been able to understand them, is "Yes".
Mr. G. Brown: The terms of reference read out by the right hon. Gentleman seem to limit the Royal Commission to re-examining "the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders…; to report how far they are realised by the penalties and methods of treatment available to the courts." Does the right hon. Gentleman say that those terms of reference are intended to lead the Royal Commission into inquiring into the causes of crime?
The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the early part of my statement, he wilt see that the Royal Commission must take into account the causes of crime.
Mr. Brown: There are two different things. The Royal Commission is asked, "In the light of modern knowledge" to inquire into "the punishment and treatment of" crime. It is not asked, by these terms of reference, to inquire into the causes of crime.
The Prime Minister: I do not think that there is any conflict here. I will read the words again:
"It emphasised the need to intensify research into crime and its causes, and into the effectiveness of methods of treatment."

605
This is generally covered. The terms of reference are based on the 1959 Government White Paper, which said that we should have a comprehensive review of these questions.
Mr. Brown: This is becoming impossible. The Prime Minister read out the terms of reference of the Royal Commission and he is now saying that they have some other terms of reference. All we know and all that the Royal Commission will know will be the terms of reference which it will have, which include the words "In the light of modern knowledge of crime…to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders in England and Wales".
If the Prime Minister wants the Royal Commission to have some other terms of reference to which he has referred, he should have included them in the terms of reference which he read out.
The prime Minister: With respect, the right lion. Gentleman is making heavy weather about nothing at all. I do not want to weary the House, but perhaps it will be of assistance if I read the first part of the terms of reference:
"In the light of modern knowledge of crime and its causes and of modern penal practice here and abroad, to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders…"
I should have thought that that gave the Royal Commission very wide terms of reference indeed.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Without a Question we cannot debate the matter now.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 15th April].
  [Sir ROBERT GRIMSTON in the Chair]

  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  Question again proposed,
  That it is respect to t revenue and connection Resolutions of the tax so as to amendments chargeable E for all good rates of tax expedient to amend the law with le national debt and the public to make further provision in with finance, so, however, that this call not extend to making amend: enactments relating to purchase give relief from tax, other than making the same provision for goods of whatever description, or Is to which any of the several at present applies.

  BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
  3.52 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Alan Green): This is the second successive Budget introduced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Resolutions of which have been accepted by the Opposition without a vote. This is the first point to be noted amid the welter of words employed by some hon. Members opposite as a substitute for actually opposing it. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition called it a lame duck Budget. I suppose that that is by comparison with the spectral pony suspected to be sheltering in the Opposition's stab le. I say "suspected" because the Opposition have so far shied away from the Chancellor's clear challenge to state exactly what their alternative proposals would be. Perhaps I should not make too much of this, although it is clear that they have refrained from accepting my right hon. Friend's challenge.
  It is true that heavy hints have been dropped about taxing profits rather than, for example, tobacco, and that the mystic change was made by the Opposition's "shadow Chancellor" yesterday that we halve been shifting the burden of taxation from profits and dividends to persons. Those were almost his exact

  607
  words. It seems to have escaped his notice that profits are taxed and that the level of taxation on company profits was raised three years ago. I am left with the impression, perhaps I am wrong, that he would have raised this level of tax on company profits further and have done it—if we are to believe his right hon. Friend—in some ruthlessly discriminating way as an encouragement to that purposeful industrial development, which is the current jargon of the Opposition.
  It seems also to have escaped the hon. Gentleman's attention that dividends are actually paid to persons, in whose hands they are taxable at the rate appropriate to the individual recipient's total income. A special extra tax on dividends would, therefore, involve a further tax on persons, many of whom have incomes too small to attract the existing standard rate of Income Tax.
  Perhaps while on this subject I might refer to the interesting suggestion put out by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) about the income equalisation tax. All I can do at present is to assure him that this notion is being carefully considered. I cannot say any more than that to him and I think that he will understand why that is so. He will appreciate, however, that interesting though the idea is from the point of view of distribution—namely, from the company point of view—the objections must obviously be considered because it would also fall as an extra tax, or rather, deduction of receipt, in the hands of the same people I have been mentioning, many of whom have very small incomes indeed.
  It is open to question whether, because of the apparently otherwise useful regulating effect of this idea, those people should suffer a deduction in their incomes, many of which are small and inelastic. That will have to be considered along with what is otherwise at first glance an attractive thought.
  As a helpful note to the Committee in general and the Opposition in particular, I have asked for and obtained the proportion of direct to indirect taxation for the years 1951–52 onwards. I hope, since reference was made to the whole 12 years of Conservative rule, that this is not an unfair base from which to start. The comparison is usually based
  608
  on the proportion of Customs and Excise taxation to total central Government taxation; that is, the ratio of Customs and Excise revenue to the total, which comprise Customs and Excise revenue, Inland Revenue taxes and the motor vehicle duties.
  In 1951–52, indirect taxes thus defined were 41·8 per cent. of the total. By 1963–64, they were 41·6 per cent. of the total, notwithstanding the reductions in direct taxation made in that and previous years. This is relevant to the rather unguarded reference to this matter in the speech of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) yesterday. For 1964–65 the estimated proportion, after the Budget changes, has been put at 41·2 percent.—and that is, therefore, less than last year and less even than in 1951–52. The final piece of information which I hope is helpful on this aspect of the Budget is this: it is calculated that the indirect tax increases will add nine-tenths of one point to the cost-of-living index. This piece of information is, I think, required by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). If he wishes, I am able to break down further even that small percentage.
  The attack mounted by the Leader of the Opposition, a formidable one, has taken the form that the growth in imports outmatches the growth in exports and thereby imperils the maintenance of a policy of growth in real terms in this country. I hope that that is a fair summary of what the right hon. Gentleman said. He is rightly concerned—as are the Chancellor, the House and the country at large—with the maintenance of and an increase in the real resources of this country, vis-à-vis the rest of the world in which we must seek our living. This is the heart of our economic problem.
  My right hon. Friend the Chancellor devoted a great part of his speech to this very central problem and it would be improper to accuse him of not having done so. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) paid proper attention to the importance of this matter, not only to ourselves but to the outside world as well. I will leave it to other of my hon. Friends to examine the likely effects of the Opposition's declared domestic

  609
  spending proposals on this central problem. Perhaps they would like to think about that in the meantime.
  In framing his Budget my right hon. Friend had to consider certain major factors not in isolation from one another, but in connection with one another. If Opposition speakers, if I may put it to them in this way, have a fault, it is a remarkably common tendency to argue from the particular to the general and not from the general back to the particular. It is because they do this that I think that they occasionally get into some sort of a muddle. For example, my right hon. Friend had to consider whether the existing rates of taxation, coupled with the experience and the reasonable expectation of savings, would suffice to cover the expected outlays of public expenditure, themselves substantially increased.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) raised this matter in what I thought was a very eloquent passage. [Interruption.] I did not find myself altogether departing from the philosophy of my right hon. Friend on this matter. There is no reason why I should, as I hope to demonstrate during the course of my speech.
  Again, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor had to consider whether the known plans, both public and private, would fully engage existing resources; whether that full engagement would result in too much consumption at home, with a relative stoking of imports and a relative slackening of exports; whether, within the whole very large area of public expenditure, there was a reasonable and sustainable balance between the needs of defence and of the social services, of education and transportation, of housing and the associated environmental services. These are the essential, but not the only, budgetary considerations. Some of the others we shall doubtless debate on the Finance Bill.
  My right hon. Friend listed a number of major factors, upon the actual behaviour of which the continuance of balance would be bound to depend, regardless of what party was in power. Because the balance cannot be maintained at home if we are not competitive in overseas markets—this is one consideration that any party would have to
  610
  have in mind—the attainment and the maintenance of a sensible incomes policy is in the forefront of these factors.
  This is not something than can be centrally directed. Even Communist countries have their recurrent problems of wage differentials and wages drift. But it is an area in which Governments have great influence by processes of persuasion and education and by securing, as far as possible, that the resources to be employed in the public sector are covered by a combination of tax yield and savings and, where appropriate, by the prudent deployment of reserves. I do not think that I am so far removed from the philosophy of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West.
  The balance is, admittedly, difficult to achieve, and would be for any Chancellor; and is very difficult to maintain, for it does not wholly depend upon the judgments and actions of any British Government. The actions of other Governments may cause major and abrupt adjustments, as the Labour Party itself found in the period of the Korean War. The winters of 1947 and 1963 were both severe enough temporarily to affect the balances then sought, so that these things are not wholly within the gift of Governments to achieve. Again, I find myself not straying too far from the general philosophy of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West.
  Last year, by what is generally accepted to have been judicious judgment, m} right hon. Friend the Chancellor achieved balance in a way which led to exceptionally rapid growth in pretty well all the desired directions. It was quite obvious, as my right hon. Friend himself has pointed out without any prompting, that one consequence of the achievement would be a mounting import bill. To meet this virtually certain consequence, better buttresses for sterling had to be secured; a id not only for sterling, because the health of other major currencies is almost as important to us in the long run as is the health of sterling. This is a fact which we would all accept and agree upon.
  Now today better buttresses for sterling and, for example, the dollar, have been erected. They are not perfect, and a lot more work needs to be done.

  611
  However, the point that I am making is that, without that past work, without that real planning, the balance struck by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor would have had to have been at a lower level and the hopes of further progress correspondingly dim. The point I hope I am observed to be making is that a very great deal of real planning has, in fact, preceded this period of growth.
  For this Budget my right hon. Friend had to consider whether he could simply leave the balance just as it was trimmed in the circumstances of last year, or whether the rate of growth now visible in the economy was not itself a factor which required some steadying, so that the general momentum might be maintained. By a remarkably general consensus of opinion, it is accepted that some steadying is required. Of course, there will be different opinions about the degree of that steadying and the method thereof, and I have not so far heard any alternative very seriously pressed. It may, or again it may not, come later; but so far I have not heard any alternative seriously pressed. I can promise that it will be very seriously considered if it is so pressed. Indeed, my right hon. Friend is all ears for such suggestions.
  There are certain other matters in my right hon. Friend's statement which, I think, by tradition, are probably better left to the Finance Bill—for example, his proposals for dealing with new forms of avoidance, which it would not, perhaps, be appropriate for me to talk about. What we are here concerned with—it is the central point of the Budget—is whether a proper balance has been achieved, in view of the assessment of the economic forces now operating on this country. I would accept at once, as I am sure everyone would, that, if the ratio of imports to exports became seriously wrong, steps would have to be taken further to correct the balance proposed in my right hon. Friend's Budget.
  Mr. John Diamond: The hon. Gentleman is dealing with a most important point. Would he tell us what action he has in mind to deal with that eventuality?
  Mr. Green: A very great deal would obviously depend on what happened. We are dealing with a hypothesis. I do not
  612
  think that it is too sensible to answer a hypothesis in detail.
  My right hon. Friend is seeking, in the Budget, a greater degree of flexibility within the powers previously accorded to him. For example, he is seeking to make the regulator more flexible than it has been so far. That is one example. He is seeking flexible weapons to meet what may be changing circumstances. This seems to me to be a most sensible practical approach, but I would not like to answer categorically the hypothesis that is put to me. It would be very foolish of me if I attempted to do so.
  Mr. James Callaghan: Then I am wondering why we should be expected to do so.
  Mr. Green: I am not expecting the hon. Gentleman to answer hypothetical questions. I put to him real questions.
  Here is the Chancellor's Budget, with the Resolutions and the proposals that he is making. Can the hon. Gentleman devise better ones in the circumstances which my right hon. Friend has so clearly outlined? After all, the circumstances, as set out in all the Treasury papers, are now quite well known. The hon. Gentleman is not asked to embark upon a hypothesis, as I was asked to just now. He is asked to suggest, if he has them, any real alternative proposals to those that the Chancellor has put forward. So far, there have been no such proposals.
  Mr. Diamond: I am sorry to interrupt the Financial Secretary again. I did not pose the hypothesis. The hon. Gentleman posed it in his speech—very properly, if I may say so, because he is dealing with a most fundamental point. The Chancellor himself referred to this, and said that, if things got worse, he still had the regulator. Now the hon Gentleman is saying that, if things got worse in the sense of a disproportion of imports, the Chancellor would have further measures in mind. The Committee is entitled to know what these further measures are.
  Mr. Green: With the greatest respect to the hon. Member, there is, for example, the existing regulator, which can be used. One hopes that it does not have to be used. I am drawing attention to the fact that my right hon. Friend's proposals include a more flexible use of the regulator, which gives him additional room

  613
  for manoeuvre. What other measures my right hon. Friend might consider in the unlikely event of a real deterioration this year it would be presumptuous for me to put into his mouth, and I shall not do it.
  Mr. G. Mr. Mitchison: I counted 15 separate proposals in the speech yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), not to mention the reference to N.E.D.C., which would bring in a number more. Is there any Government answer to any of them?
  Mr. Green: For the most part, those proposals, if they are to be called proposals, were vague and unspecific, as the hon. and learned Member well knows. Many of them, however, were dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. It has already been pointed out that the export suggestions made by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East had all been made with monotonous frequency on many occasions before anti had been dealt with. I cannot help hon. Members opposite if they do not want to understand what they read or hear it is not possible for me, in those circumstances, to help them. Those suggestions have been dealt with.
  The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East went along another path, also—I have just dealt with it—and that is the ratio of direct to indirect taxation. His proposals, which were put blankly, although I do not blame him for that, were to transfer, by some magic, taxation from persons to profits and dividends. I have devoted a passage of my speech to that. Perhaps the hon. Member will do me the courtesy of reading it in print if he did not understand me when I said it.
  In these circumstances, with no real alternative proposals and no vote against any of the Budget Resolutions, the only surprising comment—1 nearly said, but I am much too well-mannered to say, witless comment—is to call the Budget irrelevant. It is extremely relevant to the circumstances of the year in which it is proposed and framed and I believe that it will be seen to be increasingly so.
  4.13 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Jay:it is a little surprising that the financial secretary to the Treasury has no more
  614
  to say than that. If one wished to be charitable o this so-called Budget, one could at least say of it that it is a condemnation pf the pre-election Budgets of 1955 and 1959. Then, with the balance of payments weakening and an election approaching?:, taxes went down. Now, with the balance of payments weakening and an election approaching, taxes go up. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is right, it is clear that, in 1955, the present Foreign Secretary and, in 1959, Lord Amory, must have been wrong.
  In his general strategy, the Chancellor has at least done better than his predecessors. He has at least shown that he is not prepared to run away from the economic facts quite as blatantly as the Prime Minister is running away from the electorate. Nevertheless, I cannot help wondering whether the Chancellor has not been too optimistic. The Secretary of State to for Industry and Trade, who has not stayed for an answer, was astonishingly complacent yesterday.
  The Chancellor faces a worsening balance of payments with an internal inflationary gap far wider than any of the unofficial expert commentators had thought prudent. Yet, although he did not make it is clear in his Budget speech, he has increased the overall Budget deficit this year, even allowing for £150 million of local authority borrowing transferred to the Budget, by £150 million over and above where it stood last year, when we had a great deal of unused capacity. Does the Chancellor believe that that can possibly be right?
  It is difficult to understand this Budget, unless one assumes that it was designed to precede a General Election, in June, with the regulator to follow and put up tams in July, or perhaps, October. I should like to know what the Chancellor will do if he turns out to be wrong and all the unofficial experts turn out to be right.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether he thinks that I should put up taxes more.
  Mr. Jay: I was coming to that; I shall answer all those questions.
  Whatever the Chancellor's general strategy, however—there will be plenty of chances for voting in Committee; if

  615
  hon. Members opposite want Divisions, they can have them—his real failure is in selecting the right taxes to increase this year. I say emphatically that in present circumstances he should have raised not consumer taxes, but profits taxes. As everybody knows nowadays, we have to rely on a great deal of help from indirect taxation; but that does not mean that any required increase in revenue must come wholly from indirect taxes and not from direct taxes.
  Sir Douglas Glover:Does this mean that it was in an absent-minded Fit that the opposition did not vote against the resolution dealing with taxes On cigarettes>?
  Mr. Jay: The hon. Member has been here long enough to know that it is usual to vote in committee on the Finance bill rather than on the budget resolutions (HON. MEMBERS:"NO"] If hon. Members opposite are so enthusiastic for divisions they can have plenty starting next week Then no doubt they will vote on different sides.
  With the selection of taxes which the chancellor has made it is not surprising that the stock exchange finds the budget so exhilarating To the ordinary public however it is a bit of a shock that at a time when the prime Minister was telling us that the economy has never been stronger we find the chancellor Being forced to raise consumer taxes so steeply People ask whether this will not simply force up the cost of living and consequently wage rates even more quickly and so provoke just that upwards spiral against which the chancellor has given us so many pious warnings.
  Sir Cyril Osborne:Of course not.
  Mr. Jay: The hon. Member had better listen to his Friend the financial secretary who told us today that these taxes have already raised the cost of living by just on one point The hon. Member must know that a great many wages are directly and in-directly that will be the first consequence of the Budget.
  I believe that the ordinary man is right here and that the chancellor is
  616
  wrong. It is not really economic analysis, but simply political prejudice, that has persuaded the right hon. Gentleman to prefer indirect to direct taxes at this time. His argument that indirect taxes do more to restrain consumption than direct taxation is sheer nonsense. If one cuts a man's income or his dividends, his consumption is cut just as effectively as if we tax tobacco and drink, as the Chancellor well knows.
  The Budget must be looked at in the light of the fact that it follows a 12-year series during which the Government have been steadily shifting the burden of taxation from profits taxation to consumer taxation and the National Insurance contribution. The fallacy in the Financial Secretary's figures this afternoon was that he quoted indirect taxation and omitted the National Insurance contribution.
  This has had two effects. One must look, on the one hand, at taxation and, on the other, at benefits, and this afternoon we are looking at taxation—[Interruption.] We are looking at direct and indirect taxation, because the Government have made a shift between them.
  This has had two effects. It has led to steep increases in dividends—which have increased far faster than wages and Salaries-and, together with the rise in rents engineered by a Government policy, to a rise in living costs, in wages rates, and in the cost of producing our exports. I do not doubt that this is one reason why the United Kingdom percentage of the world's manufactured exports fell again in the four years between 1958 and 1962 from 18 per cent. to 15 percent., and why our balance of payments is so persistently weak.
  Some few voices have tried to resist this conclusion by attempting to argue that the taxation of company profits is really equivalent to the taxation of the consumer, because the business man always adds the tax on to the price. It is of great assistance to our debates this year that we have the Gordon Richardson Committee most decisively refuting that particular fallacy. The Richardson Committee has found that businessmen generally would regard a value-added tax—the particular tax that it was considering, and the same is true of other indirect taxes
  "…as a charge or cost which they would seek to recover in prices."

  617
  On the other hand, the Committee does not regard the Profits Tax as entering directly into prices and would not expect an increase or decrease in it to affect prices either way—
  Mr. Eric Lubbock: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how the £100 million extra which the Chancellor is seeking to raise would have been raised by increasing Profits Tax? And, accepting the right hon. Gentleman's argument that an increase in Profits Tax would not lead to increases in costs, and that boards of directors would keep dividends constant, would not the effect be to reduce their investment in new stock and machinery?
  Mr. Jay: I did not say that they would keep dividends constant, but that Profits Tax affects dividends. I was quoting the Gordon Richardson Report, which says:
  "There was unanimity that the actual changes in profits tax and income tax in recent years had no, or at any rate no discernible, effect on prices."
  The authors of the Report conclude from this that the substitution of an indirect tax for Profits Tax would mean that
  "Wage and salary earners would suffer an increase in the cost of living at the same time as company profits were receiving the benefits of"
  lower taxation.
  The Committee then says—and these are the Committee's words, not mine—that this
  "…would greatly add to the difficulties of working out an incomes policy…"
  and that:
  "The consequences for the balance of payments would then be injurious."
  That is a fairly formidable indictment, for which we now have the powerful authority of Mr. Donald MacDougall as well as that of Mr. Gordon Richardson, of any policy of substituting indirect taxation for profits taxation. But that is precisely what Tory Chancellors have done over the last 10 years—
  Mr. Green: I know that the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to be unfair. I gave him the ratio in total of indirect to direct taxes, which I am sure he will study. What the Richardson Committee was talking about was a particular
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  form of indirect taxation, namely, the value-Added tax.
  Mr. Jay: But the hon. Gentleman has also given the increase in the cost-of living index, due to the Budget, which must have the effects described by the Richardson Committee. The Chancellor has carried this process further in h is Budget.
  I doubt whether the House—and here I reply to the Financial Secretary's figures—even now realises what sweeping reductions in tax revenue from profits have been granted in total over the last 10 or 12 years. On 17th March, I asked the Chancellor how much extra taxation company profits would be yielding if the percentage companies paid in to today were the same as in 1952–53. The right hon. Gentleman gave a figure of £270 million a year. That is his measure of the tax relief given to companies, and it is certainly a large enough figure. As a matter of fact, if we take if a Government's own figures in the National Income Blue Book for the gross trading profits of companies and the taxation paid by them, the total would appear to be more like £600 million. Perhaps the Chancellor will at some time explain the discrepancy.
  The President of the Board of Trade yesterday complained that in making this comparison we were taking an arbitrary s election of years, so I will take two s is of years selected by the Government, not by myself. The figures in the right hon. Gentleman's National Income Blue Book show that in the years between 1952 and 1962—which are the years the Government select—gross trading profits of United Kingdom companies rose from £2,780 million to £3,531 million—that is, an increase of 62 per cent.—but United Kingdom tax revenue from company profits fell from £982 million to £944 million. In those same years, ordinary dividends rose by 166. percent. compared with a rise in wages, on official figures of 74 percent.
  In those circumstances, is it really surprising that the Government find it difficult to get an incomes policy accepted by the wage earners? I ask, because, of course, the effect of this cut in the taxation on profits has been—and I say this to the hon. Member for Orpington

  619
  (Mr. Lubbock)—not a fall in prices but a rise in dividends over those years. Indeed, to a large extent it has been a reversal of the redistribution that occurred between 1939 and 1950 when company tax payments went up and dividend payments went down—
  Mr. Victor Goodhew: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us, at the same time, the amount of tax that the Government would have received from individuals had the standard rate of Income Tax not been lowered since 1952–53?
  Mr. Jay: If the hon. Gentleman looks at the figures of Income Tax and insurance contribution paid by individuals, he will find the proportion is just about as great now as it was 10 years ago.
  To please the President of the Board of Trade, who wanted us to make more than one set of years, I will also give the corresponding figures for the five years from 1958 to 1963, which are the years chosen by the Government in their National Income White Paper, published last week. In those five years, the gross trading, profits of companies rose 28·6 per cent.; United Kingdom taxes on company incomes fell—fell absolutely—12·9 per cent. ordinary dividends rose 81·7 per cent.; rent, interest and dividends rose 48·9 per cent., and wages and salaries rose 34 per cent. Those are the Government's own figures.
  Therefore, whichever years we take, it is perfectly clear that Tory Chancellors have carried out a massive shift of taxation away from company profits on to the consumer and the insurance contribution combined. That is the main reason why dividends have risen so much faster than wages, and one of the main reasons why prices have gone on rising continuously. For, quite apart from the vicious effect of transferring income from the poorer taxpayer and giving it to the richer, this tax shift has, as the Richardson Committee agrees, steadily weakened our balance of payments by raising prices and export costs, and made an incomes policy unattainable.
  Indeed, the Government through these years, while preaching the need for an incomes policy, have, in practice, been carrying out two policies which, collectively, and cumulatively, were bound to weaken our export efforts and damage
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  our balance of payments. First, as I said, they raised export costs by the tax policy I have described. Secondly, by prematurely liberalising—this was the Chancellor when he was at the Board of Trade—our imports of manufactured consumer goods, they released a flood of very inessential imports before we were able to afford it.
  The Chancellor, I know, has persistently attempted to deny that manufactured consumer goods have been any major cause of the trouble. But I expect that he will now have noticed that Professor Austin Robinson as well as Sir Roy Harrod now firmly hold this view. Indeed, if the Secretary for Industry and Trade had troubled to read Professor Robinson's article in the Three Banks Review for December before he spoke yesterday, I think that he would have been less foolishly dogmatic than he was. Professor Robinson shows that between 1958 and 1962—and they are very striking figures—our imports of food and materials rose 11·5 per cent.: but our imports of manufactured goods other than machinery and fuel, that is to say, largely our imports of manufactured consumer goods, rose 115 percent.
  We then resorted, in a panic in 1961, to a general deflation in order to keep out somehow these unwanted consumer goods; as, indeed, Professor Robinson puts it, we diminished our gross national product by £600 million to save £200 million of imports. I know that the Chancellor is also trying to argue, and did again in the Budget speech, that the extra manufactured goods were largely industrial goods. The figures I have just given show that that is not so.
  Let us now carry our story on beyond 1962. The National Institute has published a table which shows that from 1962 to 1963 imports of manufactured producer goods actually fell 1 per cent. but imports of manufactured consumer Roods rose another 24 per cent. This process is still going on. The Board of Trade's latest figures show—I am sorry for all these figures, but the right hon. Gentleman argues on the facts—that if we compare the three months December to February of this last winter with the immediately previous three months, imports of industrial materials rose 9 per cent. and imports

  621
  of finished manufactures another 18 per cent.
  The Secretary for Industry and Trade almost spoke yesterday as if it would not much matter if this country were importing and exporting about equal amounts of manufactured goods. In that case, I do not know how he thinks we shall pay for our food and raw materials, the prices of which, incidentally, in his last incarnation, he was trying to raise. After all, this country cannot live unless it exports far more manufactured goods than it imports. I should have thought that that was obvious.
  I do not believe, therefore, that in the present situation the Government really serve the national interest by complacently looking the other way and pretending the balance of payments situation is much better than it really is.
  Mr. Maudling: I think that we might be clear on this point. As we are exporting far more consumer goods than we are importing, is the right hon. Gentleman, or is he not, advocating a policy of putting controls on imports of consumer goods?
  Mr. Jay: I am coming to that point, also. It is all in a logical order, if the Chancellor will only wait and try to understand. At the moment I am saying that I do not think the Chancellor will serve the national interest either by forsaking logic or by ignoring the situation.
  The Secretary for Industry and Trade tried to comfort himself yesterday by saying that imported manufactured consumer goods were only 5 per cent. of our total imports. But 5 percent. of our total imports nowadays is £250 million a year, and that is the measure of the whole difference between failure and success in our balance of payments problem.
  The Prime Minister recently tried to excuse his blunder over the January trade figures by bursting into jubilation over the February figures. I do wonder whether he knew, when he did that, or whether he did not know, that the visible trade gap in February, which he thought so splendid, was greater than in any month of 1963 or 1962 except for
  622
  December, 1963, when it was the same. We merely recovered from a disastrous month in January to a very bad month in February.
  The Secretary for Industry and Trade, also, yesterday was equally unwise to treat the March trade figures simply as a text for making debating points. What do these March figures show? Exports in the first quarter of 1964 were 2 percent. higher in value than for the fourth quarter of 1963; but imports were 7 percent. higher. Exports in the first quarter of this year were 5 per cent. higher than the average for 1963 imports were 13 per cent. higher. In fact, whichever figures we take, volume or value, and for whichever period, they show that imports are rising much faster than exports. The crude visible gap in March, on the normal method of computation, was £65 million.
  Ever since: the war it has been a major danger signal if this gap, thus calculated, has risen to over £60 million in a month. It has now exceeded £60 million for four months in succession.
  Mr. Goodhew: It depends upon the overall size.
  Mr. JayI know the Secretary for Industry and Trade has another way of working it but—
  Mr. Green: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that to take a constant figure of £65 million regardless of the total increase in volume either way is not real y a safe way of measuring what is a c anger gap—or not.
  Mr. Jay: No. That really is not so at all, because, unfortunately, if our imports ate rising higher than our exports, that is causing the gap to increase even faster as a percentage. If the hon. Gentleman does not realise that he does not appreciate the difficulty of this problem.
  However, the fact is that the gap has exceeded £60 million for the whole of the last four months. If the Chancellor and the Secretary for Industry and Trade regard it as partisan to point out the truth in this matter, I would quote what The Times City column says this morning. It says:
  "No matter how one juggles with the figures it is impossible to produce a reassurance from them that the United Kingdom's

  623
  export earnings are growing sufficiently fast to finance the rising level of imports one must expect. …"
  I must say that, repeatedly since the war, whenever I have heard the sort of chirpy debating speech we had from the Secretary for Industry and Trade yesterday it was followed two months or sometimes three months later by a serious balance of payments problem. The real trouble about the right hon. Gentleman—I am sorry he is not here—is that if he goes on to make more speeches of the sort he will not merely deceive his supporters. He will deceive himself, also.
  In this situation it rather alarms me to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking action just as likely to raise prices and export costs as to restrain imports. I do not believe that what he has done will be enough to get us in balance. If we try to restrain inflation, as he has, by raising indirect taxation, it is as likely to end by making the cost inflation worse.
  What ought to be done? The Chancellor asked me. I will answer the question. I will mention, for a start, two major acts of policy which, I think, should be pursued. First, the Chancellor should hold prices and costs down by shifting a fair proportion of the tax burden off the consumer and back on to company profits. If he did that, a real incomes policy might be possible. So far, the only mention of any contribution that we have had in the debate, of lower prices has been the decision of the National Coal Board to lower the prices it charges to the steel industry.
  Here, however, I find it agreeable for once to be able to compliment the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. He went to Geneva two weeks ago and—incidentally, without breathing a whisper of it previously to us, or, indeed, even explaining it yesterday—made a most sweeping and revolutionary offer on tariffs and Commonwealth preferences.
  The right hon. Gentleman offered to extend preferences in the United Kingdom market to all developing countries provided that the other great industrial nations did the same. I take the right hon. Gentleman to have meant that preferences would only be extended, by this policy, by lowering tariffs on goods from
  624
  the poorer countries and not by raising them on goods from other countries. If so, the right hon. Gentleman's proposals are all the more welcome to us, because they are precisely the opposite of what he was advocating 18 months ago.
  At Brussels, 18 months ago, the right hon. Gentleman was proposing to narrow the area of free imports of food and materials into the United Kingdom. Now he is proposing to widen it. These new proposals are also all the more welcome because they are precisely the opposite of the plans for fresh restrictions on food imports which his colleague the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is simultaneously, but, I am happy to say, unsuccessfully trying to apply at the present time.
  The Secretary of State for Industry and Trade yesterday got into a great doctrinaire passion about the wickedness of import controls—about which the right hon. Gentleman asked me a question just now. But does he not know that the Minister of Agriculture is imposing at this moment a whole series of restrictions on food imports? So we have this situation. The Chancellor says, wisely, I think, that he has no doctrinaire view about import control. The Secretary of State for Industry and Trade is furiously doctrinaire about the idea of imposing any controls on manufactured imports; and the Minister of Agriculture imposes a whole series of controls on our food imports. That, I suppose, is what the posters call, "Going straight ahead with the Conservatives" I believe that that poster was withdrawn just before the Budget.
  I shall tell the Chancellor what I would do. In this matter, I agree with the Chancellor and disagree with the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. I would add this. If controls do become necessary, I would much sooner impose them on inessential goods first and essential goods afterwards; rather than, as the Government are doing, impose them on essential goods but not on inessential ones. I hope that the Chancellor will meditate on that answer.
  The second major practical measure which I think—and we have been asked for this—would generally help to give us expansion without inflation, and so ease the rather forbidding balance of payment prospect, would be a really

  625
  resolute effort to get expansion of employment from now on into the underemployed parts of the country.
  If we try to expand 4 percent. a year in all areas, we shall run up against inflation in the Midlands and the South-East, while Scotland, Northern Ireland and the North-East are still under-employed. But if we expand faster—and we are still not doing so—in the underemployed areas, it is quite possible that we might achieve even 6 percent. overall growth for a good deal longer.
  The Government professed last autumn, with their White Papers on Scotland and the North-East, that they were really converted to the need for action here. But since then, we have had the extraordinary Report on the South-East which, in my view, largely cancels out the White Papers on Scotland and the North-East, which we had last autumn. This Report on the South-East accepts the prospect of a further transfer of 1 million people over the next 20 years into the South-East over and above the 2½ million natural increase there. The most astonishing thing about this document is that it bases the whole of its estimate, and all its practical conclusions, on the completely unargued assumption that we cannot control office development in the same way that we can control factory development.
  on the ground of this utterly frivolous assumption, which the Government blithely accept in their accompanying White Paper without any serious argument at all—we shall have to debate this a great deal more later on—the Report proposes, in effect, a vast programme of capital expenditure designed to transfer 1 million people from one end of the United Kingdom to the other. We say, that in our view, that would be an utterly unjustified extravagance which the country, on top of all its other commitments, really cannot afford. The drift of population which is now depopulating so many areas in the North and West is something that the Government ought to discourage, and not actively finance at enormous public cost.
  I was struck just now by the statement of the Financial Secretary that his philosphy was very close to that of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) I fear that
  626
  the trouble on this issue of regional planning is that the real mind of the Tory Party is represented not even by the White papers of last autumn, but by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West. He, of course, wants to leave the whole location of employment to the free play of financial forces, which is a very different thing from the free choice of the individual. If he had his way, I believe that within 30 years three quarters of the population of this island would be forced in search of a job to live packed in the southeastern corner of it.
  The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, whom we are always extremely glad to see here, is, I believe, a great authority on Herodotus. He also preaches the ruthless play of free competition. He has also recently, unless he has resigned during the past week, become a director of the National Discount Company. The discount market practices an extreme form of monopoly by which all the main firms join together in what they call a syndicate; and they tender for Treasury bills at identical rates—
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: In competition with all comers.
  Mr. Jay: —like any builders' ring tendering to the local authorities. The right hon. Gentleman gives us a new definition of competition. But even accepting that, I could sometimes wish that the right hon. Gentleman would devote some of his undoubted fanaticism to stimulating competition in the discount market rather than to the sacred cause of depopulating Scotland, Northern Ireland and North-East England.
  This week's Budget has, at any rate, finally convinced the country that it can no more expect an incomes policy or sound balance of payments than it can expect social justice or regional planning from a Government whose only remaining idea is to cling to office to the last conceivable moment. The Chancellor pronounced a rather weary epitaph on a lifeless and hopeless Government, whose only reason for postponing the General Election is that they know that the country is against them.
  4.49 p.m
  Sir Cyril Osborne: The only comment that I make on the speech of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) is that as a general principle I think it much better to tax spending than earnings. The nation requires more earnings to increase its wealth. There is no necessity for anyone to spend above a certain limit, and so I would rather tax spending than earnings. I have said this so many times that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee know what I stand for. First, if an extra £100 million had to be raised, then from the point of view of the nation's economic situation it would be better to raise it in a way that does not affect the earning power of the nation.
  I thought that the right hon. Member for Battersea, North was grossly unfair to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), who can well look after himself and will one day show that he can.
  I support the Budget because, in the circumstances, it is sensible, sound and realistic. Its aim is steady expansion without inflation, which we all want. I believe it continues the policy of previous Budgets, which have produced the highest standard of living this nation has ever enjoyed. Our people are better fed, better clothed and better housed than ever before in our history. They are spending more on drink, tobacco, amusement and overseas holidays than ever before. Our parents and grandparents would not have believed it possible that we could have reached such a high standard of living. I challenge any hon. Member opposite to refute what I say. Hon. Members opposite talk about "the past 12 years of Tory government," but those years represent the most wonderfully successful economic achievement this nation has ever known. One has only to look at the school children, the hospitals and the housing estates. The right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) knows what Wales was like 12 years ago. I am proud of what the Government have done.
  Mr. James Griffiths: If the hon. Member is proud of what the Government do today, he must be equally ashamed of what the Tories did in the 'thirties.
  Sir C. Osborne: I entirely agree with that. All I say is that in the last 12 years we have had a wonderful economic achievement. Hon. Members opposite do our nation a great disservice by denigrating what the Government have done for our people.
  The Guardian yesterday—;it is not a fanatical supporter of the Conservative Party—supported my right hon. Friend's Budget. Its financial column was headed:
  "City pleased with the Budget."
  The labour correspondent headed his double column on the front page:
  "Following Mr. Woodcock's advice."
  He claimed that the Budget was a product of the T.U.C., that it was Mr. Woodcock's idea. But hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to dislike what the T.U.C. itself said it wanted. Why do they bellyache about what the T.U.C. leaders regard as sound?
  I want to ask some questions of hon. Members opposite. They are sure—they will find they are making a mistake—that they will win the General Election. The electorate is entitled to ask certain questions of them, and I propose to ask those questions now.
  What is the alternative of hon. Gentlemen opposite to the Budget? First, they say that they would have an incomes policy. This is the greatest requirement of our nation. However, in 1949 the then Socialist Government, with a majority of 246, led by Mr. Attlee and supported by very able men like Cripps, Dalton, Morrison, Bevan and Bevin, failed to get an incomes policy. If that first XI of the Socialist Party failed, why should this second XI succeed? What guarantee can they give the nation that they will succeed where Mr. Attlee's much more able Government failed?
  As I understand it, the Labour Party has three rods in pickle when it comes to power, and I must ask questions about them. First of all, from what the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) said yesterday, apparently the Labour Government will say to those who work hard and earn a bit more, "We will teach you", and to those who save a little more, "We will show you. How dare you be so anti-social as to possess more than your

  629
  Follows! "The hon. Member said that he would choose, first of all, higher direct taxes. The top limit of Income Tax and Surtax today is 17s. 9d. Would he push them back again to the 19s. 6d. which the last Socialist Government imposed? How far would he put them up? Will he tell the nation? If he does not, he is dishonest, because if that is so the Labour Party is seeking votes under false pretences.
  As to the second rod in pickle, the hon. Gentleman has advocated a savage capital gains tax. He says that the present capital gains tax is too mild. How much stronger would he make it? Would he make it restrospective? On whom would he apply it? It is only fair to the electorate, which he thinks will vote for him, to tell it what he intends to do.
  The third rod in pickle, and a more important one still, is an annual capital levy. If this is not a Cripps once-and for-all, it must be a year-after-year capital confiscation. How much will the hon. Member take? How much will he leave people? How little does he think an individual ought to retain? The people whose votes he will seek are entitled to say to him, "You want our votes. What are you going to do when you get them? "As an honest hon. Member, he ought to be able to tell the nation what he intends to do.
  Mr. Jay: In case the hon. Member is wrong and the Tories win the General Election, will he tell us what would be their first Budget after it?
  Sir C. Osborne: Our Budget is the one which we have in front of us. We do not need to produce another. Hon. Gentlemen opposite object to this Budget, and we are entitled to ask them what their alternative is. They are frightened to give it; that is what is wrong with them.
  When the last Socialist Government were in power, Surtax started at £2,000. Three years ago my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House raised the starting limit on earned income to £5,000. Hon. Gentlemen opposite object. To what level would they lower it? The country is entitled to know.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the Leader of the House, who said at that time that he really did not know how a man with £5,000 a year could educate his children?
  Sir C. Osborne: I am not dealing with my right hon. and learned Friend; I am dealing with hon. Gentlemen opposite who are very coy about telling the nation what they intend to do. Where would they put the limit?
  Let me bring it home to them. A fortnight at it was reported that the brother of the hon. Member for Coventry, Fast (Mr. Crossman), who is an eminent scientist at Oxford, was emigrating to California, and he said quite plainly that he was going for more money. In Oxford Dr. Crossman was getting £2,400 a year and he would not get more than £100 extra unless he became a professor. He has gone to California at £6,000 a year to begin with and with the possibility of a great deal more. I put it to hon. Members opposite that if they imposed greater direct taxation, as they are advocating, and lowered the Surtax level, as has been advocated this afternoon, would it not drive more of our scientists abroad? Dr. Crossman said that they were going abroad seeking higher salaries. Would they still not do so?
  Mr. Mitchison: In justice to someone who is not here and, therefore, cannot defend himself, might I point out that what Dr. Crossman said, and what a number of other scientists have said, was that thy wanted more money for their work? That has been the difficulty. It is not the question of personal remuneration. It is a question of getting proper facilities to do their work.
  Sir C. Osborne: The hon. and learned Gentleman should stick to things that he understands. That was a foolish intervention. [HON. MEMBERS: "oh."] I withdraw that. As I am challenged, I will read what the Daily Telegraph on 17th March said:
  Dr. Crossman said.… Unless he became a professor he could not get more than £100 or so above his present salary of £2,400 a year.
  At Berkeley he would get about 17,000 dollars (over £6,000) with prospects of more."
  This is what he said. [Interruption.]

  631
  This is official. Let hon. Members look at it.
  By Section 31 of the Finance Act, 1961, Profits Tax was increased from 12½ per cent. to 15 percent. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East says that he would increase it. By how much would he increase it?
  Mr. Callaghan: When?
  Sir C. Osborne: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so without offence, he and other hon. Members opposite often strut about the international scene as though they had already been foisted upon us by the Almighty as our masters. Some of them strut about like pigmies in giants' boots. As they assume that they will win the election, we are entitled to ask what they intend to do with their power. That is a perfectly fair question.
  Mr. Walter Monslow: In this Budget we have had a tax on cigarettes, a tax on beer and a tax on gambling. As a fellow Methodist, the hon. Member gets clear of all three. But what would he do about the land racketeering which in Bishop's Stortford resulted in an overnight increase in the price of farm land from £250 an acre, a total of £42,500, to £7 million for 170 acres when the land was allowed for residential development?
  Sir C. Osborne: First, that increase would be subject to heavy taxation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No"] Yes it would. Secondly, both in the House and outside I have said that I would bring in legislation to stop that.
  Mr. Callaghan: How?
  Sir C. Osborne: I am answering for myself. Let me come nearer to the bone of the case of hon. Members opposite. The very basis of the Labour Party's philosophy is embodied in Clause 4 of its constitution. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members are going to have this, and I am going to ask some questions about it. Either they believe in it, or they should take it out of their constitution. They believe that all means of production, distribution and exchange should be nationalised. That is their alternative to the Conservative capitalist philosophy which I am trying to defend.
  632
  I am asking hon. Members opposite how full-blooded a Socialist Government would be. How much would they nationalise and what effect would that have on trade? I remind hon. Members that already six great industries have been nationalised and their total capital assets—[Interruption.] Hon. Members ought at least to be fair we listen to the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East and at times he is not very much worth listening to.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us what proportion of the nationalisation was done by the Tories and what by the Labour Party?
  Sir C. Osborne: I cannot, because I do not know. That was a fair question. All I am saying is that six main industries are already nationalised and that their assets are worth £8,400 million. In normal private industry, a profit of 10 per cent. on assets is about average. That would produce a profit of £840 million a year, every year. Of that, 55 per cent. would go in taxation, so that if these industries were run normally by private enterprise, they would be producing about £450 million a year in taxation to maintain the Welfare State. But since they have been nationalised they have not produced one brass farthing to help to pay for the social services. Therefore, if further industries are to be nationalised, from where would the money come which we now get from them for the social services? I am sorry that the Shadow Chancellor has now gone, because these are the questions which I want him or his leader to answer.
  Mr. Dan Jones: On a point of order. It is not quite playing the game to make these references to the Shadow Chancellor, who has been in the Chamber for 2½ hours.
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. H. Hynd): That is not a point of order.
  Sir C. Osborne: If it was thought objectionable, I withdraw it; but these are the questions which the electorate is entitled to have answered.
  A week last Sunday, the Sunday Express had a City article, over three columns, headed:
  "Mr. Wilson says 'I have no plans to grab I.C.I.'."
  Mr. Cyril Bence: Hear, hear.
  Sir C. Osborne: I am much obliged. I will read the account of what happened at a luncheon at which the gentleman who hopes to be Prime Minister was present:
  "The brandy was mellow. The cigars were the finest Havanas. It had been an excellent meal.
  Harold Wilson relaxed and told the tycoons round the table: 'I have no predatory interest in I.C.I.'
  It happened last week in the charming Queen Anne house where I.C.I.'s top brass discreetly entertain V.I.P.s."
  Why the Leader of the Opposition should want to be entertained discreetly I do not know.
  "Chairman Paul Chambers, soon off on a trip to Russia, smiled and passed the brandy round again."
  I should jolly well think he did. I hope that hon. Members will take note of this:
  "Quietly he reflected that, exactly two years ago, Hugh Gaitskell sparked off a major row in the Socialist Party with his promise at a private meeting that he would not nationalise I.C.I."
  Are we to have the same spark and the same row again?
  "Mr. Wilson, for all his belligerence, clearly holds the same view as Mr. Gaitskell—a reassuring thought for I.C.I.'s 500,000 shareholders.
  The Opposition leader"—
  and I beg hon. Members to note this—
  "who has been having secret luncheon sessions with all sorts of tycoons, was in an expansive mood."
  Mr. Monslow: I am getting a little weary of the denigrating of our leader. After all, the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) has been to the Kremlin a time or two. How did Mr. Khrushchev entertain him when he was there?
  Sir C. Osborne: I hope to be in Moscow on 1st May. [Laughter.] The electorate outside will not think this funny and they will want a serious answer to these questions. Why does the Leader of the Opposition—and I gave him notice that I would raise these questions—want to go to secret meetings with the great tycoons?
  Mr. Sydney Silverman:: On a point of order, Mr. Hynd.
  634
  For the guidance of the Committee, will you tell us what subject is under debate?
  The Temporary Chairman: As I understand it, we are discussing the Budget Resolution. I suggest that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we did not debate it by way of question and answer.
  Sir C. osborne: While I accept the Ruling of the Chair, Mr. Hynd, it is new to me that a the hon. Member is not allowed to ask questions.
  The Temporary Chairman: I was suggesting that the debate would be a little calmer perhaps if the questions were asked in such a way as not to Provoke interruptions from the other side.
  Sir C. Osborne: I will do my best to obey your Ruling, Mr. Hynd, but we are entitled to know why it is that the Leader of the Opposition wants to go to these meetings with tycoons and do a deal behind the backs of his own party and of the electorate, upon whose votes he is depending to get into high office.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: On a point of order, Mr. Hynd. A very serious statement has been made by the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) in which he alleges that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has gone to secret meetings with tycoons and has made secret bargains behind the backs of his party and the nation. Would the hon. Member care to say that outside?
  The Temporary Chairman: That is not a point of order for me.
  Sir C. Osborne: All this is in print.
  Mr. Jay: Further to that point of order, Mr. Hynd. The hon. Member for Louth knows perfectly well that there is no reason why my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition should not meet the leaders of I.C.I. just as there is no reason why he himself should not meet Mr. Krushchev in the Kremlin. Nevertheless, if the hon. Member accuses a right hon. Member of this House of doing deals in secret behind people's backs, are you, Mr. Hynd, quite sure that he is in order?
  The Temporary Chairman: I do not think that the hon. Member for Louth has made a statement that I could object to from the Chair.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Further to that point of order. The hon. Member for Louth has made a charge against a right hon. Member of conduct which is not only unparliamentary but even worse. He has made a direct charge. He is speaking under privilege but it is in the best tradition of the House of Commons that no hon. Member makes a charge of that kind against another hon. Member unless he is prepared to have the guts to repeat it outside and be brought to book.
  Sir C. Osborne: Don't be so sanctimonious.
  Mr. Griffiths: You are offensive.
  Sir C. Osborne: You asked for that one.
  We are entitled to know what other tycoons the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has met.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Further to that point of order, Mr. Hynd. Earlier, I ventured to ask you what was the subject of the debate. You informed me of what some at least among us seem to have forgotten—that we are supposed to be discussing the Budget Resolutions introduced the day before yesterday. The hon. Member for Louth is talking about some lunches which, he says, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition may have had months ago in secret behind the backs of the electorate and about bargains that he may or may not then have made. What conceivable relevance can all these lunches, with their discreet conspiracies behind the backs of the electors, made months ago if at all, have to the discussion of the Budget resolutions introduced the day before yesterday?
  The Temporary Chairman: It is customary, when the Committee is discussing the Budget Resolutions, for the debate to range rather widely and I think that the hon. Member for Louth was trying to relate this question to some financial background.
  Sir C. Osborne: I am obliged, Mr. Hynd. The answer is quite simple. Hon. Members opposite say that the Budget is unsatisfactory. They are so sure that it is unsatisfactory that they think they will be elected the next Government. I, on behalf of the electorate, am asking them what their
  636
  alternative is. I am posing the alternative to the Budget and am asking questions.
  Mr. S. Silverman Mr. S. Silverman rose—
  Sir C. Osborne: Oh, no.
  Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order, Mr. Hynd. You were kind enough to try to explain why the hon. Member for Louth's remarks were in order. He has just proved positively that none of them was in order. None of these proposals that the hon. Member thinks he has discovered can have anything whatever to do with an alternative Budget. His remarks are not about the Budget at all. Nationalisation is no part of a Budget and never has been.
  The Temporary Chairman: As I have already said, it is customary for the debate to range rather widely. I have heard nothing yet whereby I could rule the hon. Member for Louth out of order.
  Sir C. Osborne: I am obliged, Mr. Hynd. What is extraordinary is how little hon. Members opposite are prepared to face straightforward questions.
  Mr. Silverman: It is a cowardly libel and nothing else.
  Sir C. Osborne: I am prepared to ask again. Were these other tycoons sought out by the Leader of the Opposition or did they seek him out to go and talk to them? We are entitled to know. Did they make promises to him as to what would happen with their businesses under a Socialist Government? Did they exchange promises? If so, could we know what they were?
  Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order, Mr. Hynd. For the last fifteen minutes the hon. Member has been making a violent and bitter attack on the Leader of the Opposition. May I ask whether he followed the usual courtesy of the House of Commons and gave my right hon. Friend notice that he would do so?
  The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member for Louth indicated that he had informed the Leader of the Opposition, but I do hope that the hon. Member will now come more directly to the subject of the debate.
  Sir C. Osborne: I would have got through this long ago if I had been given

  637
  a courteous hearing. I am not prepared to be shouted down from the other side. The article in the Sunday Express went on to say—and this has not been repudiated—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why should it be?"] If it is wrong, why has not the Leader of the Opposition done something about it? The article went on to say:
  "He surprised the table, which had expected him to be very much anti-big business, by a vigorous attack on Britain's numerous small firms. In particular, he singled out the engineering industry.
  It needed, he said, a complete overhaul. It was far too fragmentary. What was badly wanted was a whole round of mergers and amalgamations.
  A Socialist Government"—
  and this is relevant—
  "would encourage take-over bids in this field. It would openly show preference for the bigger organisations."
  We are entitled to know what sort of bargaining is going on behind the scenes.
  If hon. Gentlemen opposite win the Election, what do they propose to do about the Big Five banks? They do not disclose their profits; we have to estimate them. Last year, net dividends amounted to £16,466,000. As a general rule 55 per cent. of the profits were taken in Profits Tax and Income Tax. If the Big Five banks followed a cautious policy and paid out only half what they earned, I calculate that last year they paid the Chancellor of the Exchequer about £35 million.
  One of the first Acts that was passed in this House when I came here in 1945 was the Act to nationalise the Bank of England. Since then the Bank of England has not paid a farthing in taxation towards the Welfare State. If the Big Five banks were also nationalised, how would a Socialist Chancellor make up the money that would be lost from them?
  I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has also dined and wined with the tycoons of the insurance world. Does he propose to take over the insurance companies? If he did so, how would that affect the income available to a Socialist Chancellor? I looked up the details of the American business done by four of the leading insurance companies. Last year the Commercial
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  Union Assurance Company Ltd. received net premiums of 134 million dollars and had assets of 330 million dollars. The General Accident Fire and Life Assurance Corporation Ltd. received net premiums of 132 million dollars and had assets of 321 million dollars. The Northern Assurance Company Ltd. received net premiums of 127 million dollars and had net assets of 250 million dollars. The biggest of the lot, the Royal Insurance Company Ltd., received net premiums of 298 million dollars and had net assets of 682 million dollars. Those premiums and assets bring considerable income to this country. They help our balance of payments and help the Chancellor of the Exchequer with his revenue. If a Socialist Chancellor were to nationalise the insurance companies, it is almost certain that all the big business from America would dry up. This is the opinion of people who know the industry. Are we prepared to throw away all that business?
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite are pledged to nationalise the steel industry. In the last three years steel production has risen from 20½ million tons to 22½ million tons, and this year it is expected to reach 25½ million tons. It is a successful industry, and average earnings of the workers have risen from £14 6s. 0d. in 1959 to £17 18s. 0d. last year.
  Mr. Mitchison Mr. Mitchison rose—
  Sir C. Osborne: Not again. The nation is benefiting from the increased output by that industry. Exports have increased, the workers are getting higher wages, and last year the nine largest steel companies paid £12,697,000 in tax. If this industry were nationalised that money would be lost to the Revenue.
  Mr. Mitchison: May I try again?
  Sir C. Osborne: No.
  Mr. D. Jones: The hon. Gentleman should make sure of his facts.
  Sir C. Osborne: I am asking questions.
  Mr. Mitchison: The facts are that since the industry was re-transferred to private ownership steel production in this country has compared ill with that in other countries. The facts are that

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  the main developments in this country—and I am speaking about a steel plant in my constituency—are oxygen processes, L.D. and the others, which were invented and first applied by a State-owned company in Austria and have been adapted here. It is untrue to say that the steel industry in this country has been successful by comparison with those in other countries.
  Sir C. Osborne: That is an irrelevant interruption, because I did not say that it was successful compared with other countries. I did not mention other countries. That intervention was unfair and irrelevant. [Interruption.] It is a pity that the hon. Gentleman does not wash his ears a bit more often. No, I withdraw that.
  When Mr. Gaitskell was alive he was the champion of the Right-wing of his party and the present Leader of the Opposition was the champion of the Left-wing of it. If hon. Gentlemen opposite get a big majority at the next election, will they take a great lurch to the Left, which Mr. Gaitskell would not have allowed, and will that affect the proposals which a Socialist Chancellor will put forward as an alternative to the proposals in this Budget?
  When I returned from the Inter-Parliamentary Union Conference in Switzerland, I read what had been said by the Young Socialists at their Easter conference on this question of finance. They passed a resolution calling for the nationalisation of land, the building industry, building supplies, building societies, insurance companies, and for a target of 750,000 houses a year, a tax on luxury dwellings, and rents fixed at 10 percent. of a worker's income.
  Mr. Mellish: That is daft.
  Sir C. Osborne: If the hon. Gentleman is saying that the Young Socialists are daft, I should like him to repeat it to them.
  Mr. S. Silverman: My hon. Friend is saying that the hon. Gentleman is daft.
  Sir C. Osborne: They demanded the nationalisation of all the basic industries. The Guardian reported that, and The Times in summing up the conference said that the Young Socialists, the
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  Trotskyites had been making speeches and forcing through resolutions which would make Mr. Khrushchev look like a member of the primrose League.
  Hon. Gentleman opposite are convinced that they will win the next election They are therefore honour-bound to try to answer some of the questions that I have posed If they do not they will be getting votes under false pretences.
  5.29 p.m.
  Mr. Dan Jones: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) in what I consider to be an unfair attack on hon. Members on this side of the Committee. I take a leaf out of the book of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) and invite the hon. Gentleman, if he feels deeply enough about these matters, to repeat what he has said outside the House so that he can be impugned for his remarks. I have listened to the whole of this debate. Hon. Gentlemen opposite usually resort to invective when they reply to the honest criticisms which Her Majesty's Opposition are obliged to make.
  On Tuesday evening—and I am only going to make a brief reference to it because the main burden of my contribution, which will be made from the trade union point of view will be short and to the point—the following remarks were made by the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper):
  "I see one or two hon. Members opposite who represent constituencies in Scotland, the North-East and the West of England, where there are certain unemployment problems at this time. For some months they have been saying that these problems arise from Government policy, but in fact that is not true. What has happened—and this is where hon. Members opposite carry a very heavy responsibility—is that the Labour Party has no longer any sort of control over its paymasters, the trade unions, and the T.U.C. has no control over individual unions."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th April, 1964; vol. 693, c. 311.]
  In view of what we have experienced this week with the Post Office workers and the T.U.C., that is an outrageous utterance to make. I would warn hon. Members opposite that if they took trade unions from the industrial and economic life of the country they would leave a vacuum that could well be filled by anarchy.

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  At some time or other it would be very refreshing if a senior Minister were to say from the Dispatch Box opposite that he dissociated himself and the Government from such most irresponsible utterances.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: To be fair to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. Cooper), I think that the next sentence in his speech should be quoted, where he said:
  "We have lost millions upon millions of pounds worth of orders in the North-East and North-West of Scotland for shipbuilders."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th April, 1964; vol. 693, c. 311.]
  Then he went on to speak about the boilermakers. He was obviously referring to demarcation disputes which had held up British ships and given the British shipbuilding industry a bad name, for which the unions must surely have some responsibility.
  Mr. Jones: I will make reference to that. I said that I was going to make a very brief reference to the matter, because my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) was correct in what he said—it is not germane to the discussion which should now proceed.
  I want to refer to the Economic Report for 1963 which I think is germane to the argument under discussion, and here I would quote from page 2:
  "The Chancellor stated the aim of his Budget as 'expansion without inflation.' His Budget proposals were aimed at stimulating demand in ways designed to ensure so far as possible not merely expansion but expansion that could be sustained."
  I really believe, therefore, that the first comment to be made about the Chancellor's Budget is that he has failed, because we have the evidence that the Chancellor has clawed back from that section of the community least able to afford it £103 million. I believe it is fair to ask whether, were we not in the penultimate stages before a General Election, that £103 million would not have been very considerably more.
  Mr. Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I want to be quite sure what he is saying. He said that the Chancellor proposed to increase taxation by £103 million and to get it from the people who could least
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  afford it. Does he mean from them exclusively?
  Mr. Jones: No.
  Mr. Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but that was the impression which his words conveyed.
  Mr. JonesI did not say that, nor did I mean it. I said principally from that section of the community.
  Mr. Green: I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree that the habit of smoking and drinking spirits and beer is very widely spread over all sections of the community.
  Mr. Jones: Yes, except that a cigar smoked in the Carlton would cost as much as the cost of a month's supply of tobacco for a pensioner.
  I will, if I may, go to page 6 of the same Report, which says quite clearly:
  "The chart below shows that the United Kingdom share of world exports of manufactures fell from about 18 percent. in 1958 to about 15 percent. in 1962, but there was little further decline in 1963."
  It is important to note that there was a decline. I believe that that is really the nub of the whole argument. I do not think that any hon. Member on this side of the Committee disputes the fact that exports are increasing. What we say is that they are not increasing enough. We say, further, that the Labour Government, who were frequently maligned by hon. Members opposite at a time when the difficulties of Government were far greater than they are today, were, in fact, top of the league in Europe for exports, whereas now we are nearly at the bottom.
  These figures, which, incidentally, I would remind the Committee are contained in a Treasury Bulletin, give us the right very properly to criticise the Government inasmuch as the anticipated ability of a manufacturing nation such as ours to develop exports has not accelerated at anything like a satisfactory rate. As I say, that statement is contained in the Economic Report for 1963, and for that reason I believe that it is completely reliable.
  There is another factor which is the nub of my contribution to this debate. I have already said that I am making this contribution mainly as a trade union

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  leader. There are 10 million trade unionists in this country. These people are the main producers. We in this Committee can talk as much as we like about the economy of the nation, but unless and until we secure the co-operation of these people who are the actual producers we may, I suggest, argue in vain. As a consequence, I ask the Committee to believe that it is right and proper that their voice should be heard.
  I make the point that it is not only a question of our ability to export but also a question that we should import into this country only those things which we cannot ourselves properly manufacture. I am going to talk about the Teesside and the whole of the Merseyside because I want for a moment or two to deal with the importation of machine tools into this country and to relate that matter, if I may, to the engineering industry, about which I know a good deal. In turn, I am going to relate these two problems to the need to train our young people as engineers—something which the Government are failing to do—and to show that it is distinctly possible to break away from the position in which we have been for 12 or 13 years where the balance of payments has always been a matter of very serious misgiving.
  I will quote the importations of machine tools. In 1959 the value of machine tools imported into this country was £13·1 million; in 1960 it was £19·1 million; in 1961 it was £27·6 million; in 1962 it was £27·6 million, and in 1963 it was £26·3 million.
  It will be clearly seen from those figures that imports of machine tools have increased remarkably. I can well remember, in 1958, going to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then President of the Board of Trade, in connection with a firm of tool makers in the South Wales Valley, which was employing ex-miners. Those miners had done a great job in making tools, and they had a very good team of apprentices. I remember asking the then President of the Board of Trade to preserve this factory, which looked like going out of industrial existence. My appeal was in vain. That factory, which had been making a handsome contribution to the technical well-being of the
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  nation, has gone out of existence. I know for a fact that for at least a year or two after that none of the apprentices was able to secure a position in the engineering industry. That is a massive indictment of Her Majesty's Government.
  I want to draw attention to a report which appeared in yesterday's Financial Times, which said that
  "One of the largest machine tools of its type in the world, and the largest in the United Kingdom, has been installed in the main engine shop of Cammell Laird and Co. (Shipbuilders and Engineers), at Birkenhead."
  I ask hon. Members to note the following passage in the report:
  "It is a heavy universal milling, boring, drilling and turning machine built by the Italian firm of innocenti, and has been purchased by the Merseyside shipyard at a cost of over £300,000. Initially it will replace at least five existing machines, and possibly more, when it becomes fully operational."
  The final paragraph says:
  "The machine is to be fitted with electronic control pre-positioning and tape control equipment, manufactured by Coleman Systems Incorporated, California, which will reduce positioning times and minimise the possibility of errors."
  I have discussed this machine with the Amalgamated Engineering Union. I have worked in engineering for many years, both in machine shops and tool rooms, and I asked the union's research department and technicians to tell me whether they thought it possible for us to produce machines of this kind. These men keep abreast of developments. They are of the opinion—and I spoke to them only this morning—that we could produce such a machine.
  I want to show the Committee what a sad drop there has been in the number of engineering apprentices. In 1957 there were 21,645. Despite the fact that for the last 10 years we have been talking about the problem of training our young people to do the type of work to which I am referring, the intake in 1962—five years later—was 19,778. That was a decrease of nearly 2,000 in five years.
  Our criticism is fair and just in the light of the fact that a great number of young boys and girls who seek to make a contribution to industry in this way every year are denied an opportunity to do so. I suggest, with a sense of dismay, that we must face this situation. The

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  Chancellor expanded himself volubly about gambling in his Budget speech. He talked a lot about the betting tax, football pools and so on, about which I know very little, and want to know less. Yet the question of training our young people to do these jobs was dismissed by him in one line of his speech.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: The instance that the hon. Member has given destroys his own argument. He has given us a description of a highly sophisticated and elaborate machine which has been bought from Italy and which was not in production in this country. If he looks at our machine tool exports he will see that we are exporting certain types of machine tools to countries all over the world, in exchange for elaborate machines of the kind to which he has referred.
  Mr. Jones: There is a certain logic in what the hon. Member says, but I ask him seriously to consider the inference behind his words. Many of our engineers will read into those words the inference that machines of the type to which I have referred, which are of advanced design, are beyond the capacity of British engineers to produce. That suggestion I flatly reject. If any words uttered by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition have fired my imagination they are his reference to the fact that we were once the shopkeepers of the world; that we can scarcely be that any longer, but that there is no reason why we cannot become the tool room of the world. That is a challenge that we should accept.
  We should have a go. We might fail, but the nation would applaud us if we tried adventurously and in a bold spirit and failed, rather than if we accepted the situation as it is now, when we have hundreds of thousands of young people who want to get away from dead-end jobs but cannot do so. It may be that we do not have a sufficient number of technical schools, but we have enough to produce the kind of technician that we require. I speak with all sincerity, and with no personal invective in respect of any hon. Member opposite, but I believe that unless this job is tackled as it could be, and unless we give our young people a chance, there is no doubt that the present unsatisfactory situation will be perpetuated.
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  It is for that reason that I consider the Budget to be an irrelevant document, from a man whom I normally consider to be highly relevant. I regard him as a most able man. I tell that to my constituents, even if they think that I am guilty of some kind of back-scratching. The Chancellor is a most able man, and I am surprised that such an irrelevant document could come from him, when he can think so cogently about vitally important problems.
  The point upon which the Chancellor laid the greatest emphasis, and in respect of which he became more forthright than at any other time, was the question of holding down costs to 3½ percent. if the 4 percent. increase in our economy was to be maintained. As far as the right hon. Gentleman went, there was a certain amount of logic in his argument. I am sufficiently aware of the facts of our industrial economy to know that we can price ourselves out of Continental and world markets. I do not want us to do that.
  What the Chancellor said was not wrong, as far as it went, but it did not go far enough. If he is prepared to say that his proposals will cover all incomes, and all rents, and that it will follow the laying down of a just social system, the trade unions will listen with a greater degree of, sympathy to what he has to say. But we must not forget that at the moment it is very easy for the trade unions to remember 1961, 1962, and the early part of 1963. They can remember the Chancellor taking away orange juice and cod liver oil from our children and, at the same time, giving over £80 million in tax relief to Surtax payers. Can we imagine a more iniquitous act? That is one of the reasons why trade unionists are properly suspicious of any Tory Chancellor who requires this contribution from them while other sections of the community do not make nearly as large a contribution to the economic welfare of the country.
  How much does a land speculator contribute to the economic life of this country? How much is contributed by a rent racketeer? These things are germane to this Budget. We may argue academically, but in the end we are brought back to the question what is said by the people who produce? It is my proud task to represent such people and I believe that there would have been a

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  vacuum in this debate unless someone had spoken on their behalf. They are saying, "Why should we make this contribution, which we know is necessary, unless we are certain that we do so in a fair industrial and social climate?" I know that on both sides of the Committee there are hon. Members who know more of the economic problems of the country than I. But I feel that there is a crying need for new economic policies from the Government, and I believe that unless the Government are prepared to endorse and carry out such policies boldly, they should make way for another Government, because these Problems have to be solved and they will not be solved on the basis of this Budget.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: We have listened to a speech from the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. D. Jones) which was sincere, and which contained much food for thought. But I could not help feeling that most of his remarks were not relevant to the 1960s. So far as I could follow him, the hon. Gentleman said that we ought not to import anything which we could make at home. If we proceeded on those lines, we should ruin world trade. We sell motor cars to the United States of America, to France, Sweden and Italy and a large number of places where cars are made.
  The hon. Gentleman instanced machine tools. But until we have in this country a machine tool industry which is perfect and able to produce a whole range of tools, from the simplest drill and saw to the most sophisticated computer and electronically-controlled machine, such as he mentioned, we have to import tools. We do export specialist machines to Germany and the United States of America, and we have to import a number of specialised machines.
  Mr. D. Jones: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman should read more into my words than I meant. We should not, in my opinion, import those things which we can manufacture. I ask the hon. Members to recall that the Lancashire textile trade has been ruined because of imports. No country in the world now imports textiles from Lancashire if it is possible for that country to
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  manufacture its own. We must remember that charity begins at home.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: I cannot help feeling that—as in the speech of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay)—there was in the speech of the hon. Member for Burnley much that was redolent of the 1930s. It contained a great deal of protectionism and national Socialist autarchy—"we can only buy and sell among ourselves." This is 1964 and we are living in a free trade world. With the Kennedy Round coming off, we hope that the world will be even freer in respect of trade.
  The rest of the argument about the Budget seemed to centre round the important point whether we should have more direct or indirect taxation. This was discussed by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) yesterday. What was not mentioned was that the total Budget revenue from the gross national product has gone down substantially since 1951 so that the burden is considerably less on taxpayers generally.
  How we spread that burden is a matter for argument. I believe that the public would rather pay taxes through indirect taxation than through direct taxation; that is, broadly speaking. People would rather pay £100 million on their drink and cigarettes than have direct taxation such as an increase of 6d. on Income Tax, because that would seem to be the choice. If a man objects to paying an increased indirect tax in that form, he does not have to smoke or to drink.
  Mr. Brian O'Malley: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that people paying a considerable amount of Income Tax might not object particularly to rises in the price of cigarettes and beer, amounting to 4d. and to 1d., because of their financial situation, and that people in lower income groups, particularly old-age pensioners, would object strenuously to the imposition of a tax which would fall hardly on them, since they are the people least able to afford to pay such taxation?
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: That is the whole argument, whether taxation should be indirect or direct. I say that the majority of people prefer an indirect

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  method of taxation. We all look at this matter subjectively.
  I listened with interest to a radio recording made recently of a conversation in a public house. The commentator asked of a man who was drinking a pint of beer, "What do you think of the Budget?" The man said, "I think that it is a terrible hit at the working class because it puts a 1d on a pint of beer". The commentator said, "What about the 3s. on a bottle of whisky?" The man said, "This does not matter, I do not drink whisky." As I say, we look at the whole thing subjectively.
  One part of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor which attracted me has not been mentioned in the debate. He referred to some form of contractual savings scheme which would be introduced through the National Savings Movement and would give an incentive to sustained saving over a period of years. I take it that my right hon. Friend was referring to regular savings which could not be withdrawn before the end of a period and which would be available only by the purchase of Government stock such as National Savings certificates, and so on.
  I wish to draw attention to the need for another type of saving which is required in the national interest. We want savings of capital for industrial purposes and for investment in British industry. I hope that the hon. Member for Burnley will agree with me.
  Mr. D. Jones: Yes.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: In my view, the need for that is as important as the need for national savings. Everyone in industry wishes to expand. That cannot be achieved only by means of profits. There must be a call on the public for additional finance from time to time. When a new company is developing a new product it does not make great profits and has to call on outside investors for assistance and for initial finance.
  I commend to the Chancellor the need to extend his thoughts beyond National Savings and to try to think of a contractual savings scheme the proceeds of which might be available to British industry and which perhaps would enable a small saver to have a stake in that industry.
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  Here, I declare an interest. I have recently been appointed to take the place of my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmillan), who is now the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, as Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Wider Share Ownership Council. Anyone who knows me will know that this is not a recent interest of nine. I introduced a Motion on this subject in the House about five years ago.
  The savings habit is amazingly wide spread. It always amazes me to find the number of people who are able to make savings. There are 31 million with savings bank accounts of one type or another and 17 million hold National Savings Certificates. Personal savings have gone up from £100 million in 1951 to the amazing total of £1,800 million last year. The great bulk of this saving goes into Government stock, or is done through insurance companies or building societies. That is all very desirable, but, although the number of shareholders in industry has doubled since before the war and is today about 3½million, and the number of unit trust holders in the last six years has gone up from a quarter of a million to 1 million, that is still a small number compared with the 31 million savings bank holders.
  It sounds substantial, but how does it compare with the position in America? I was looking at the figures for America today and I found that there there are 18 million share holders. While America has a population three-and-a-half times greater than ours, the number of its shareholder; is about five times the number of ours. The most extraordinary international comparison that my researches have revealed is that Japan, which many people regard as a low-wage country—almost a feudal country in many ways—has 4½ million shareholders. Form a report by the chairman of a Japanese company I have found that the number of stockholders has grown three-and-a-half times during the last 10 years and that the investment trust movement has had the astounding growth in 10 years of thirty-three times what it was. Anyone who follows the savings movement in America, and I expect, also in Japan, will realise that the growth there must be due to monthly and weekly

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  payments into savings schemes introduced to enable people to buy stock through mutual trust companies and other companies of that nature.
  There are two ideas I want to put to my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to pass on to my right hon. Friend for his consideration and to be taken into account with the National Savings schemes he has in mind. First, if one takes out a life policy or an insurance policy to provide a pension one gets a tax allowance of, I believe, two-fifths of the premium.
  I suggest that in future it would be desirable for any contractual scheme of savings over a long period such as 12 years to have the premiums also allowed for tax and not only for life insurance or pension schemes. That would be complementary to the national savings scheme.
  Mr. Bruce Millan: On his first suggestion, does not the hon. Member appreciate that the effect would not be so much to stimulate the total amount of savings as simply to transfer savings into these tax-free channels? That is the whole fallacy behind the kind of argument that the hon. Member is using.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: I do not think that that is so. People take out life insurance policies because they know that one day they will die and they generally take out a pensions scheme with a company or come into the State pension scheme. They do not do more for pensions, and after a certain stage they do not do more for life insurance. They might be attracted to put savings aside if they knew that when their children became 21, or married, they could have this kind of nest egg by which they could set up house.
  The second idea I put forward is one by which one in five American companies has some form of company thrift scheme. The principle is that a man can have a payroll deduction not exceeding 6 per cent. of his salary or wages and for every dollar so saved the company puts aside at the end of the year 50 cents. Companies generally do so by way of adding company stock to the man's savings. Many companies in America go to the market to buy that
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  stock to add to savings. An employee can have it put into Government stock if he so wishes.
  In this country we might make it obligatory for employees to go into something very safe, such as Government or trustee stock, whereas the company contribution could be made in the form of shares in the company stock. The attraction of such a scheme is that the Government, employers and employees would be partners in a savings scheme. Everyone becomes a little part owner of the business in which he works. We all agree that that must be desirable. It is desirable for the reason that even if hon. Members opposite get into power no one can visualise more than 25 per cent. of British industry being nationalized; 75 per cent. will still be run under free enterprise. Surely it is desirable for those in that 75 per cent. of industry to have a chance of owning a stake in the firm in which they work.
  Sir D. Glover: My hon. Friend is wrong. Nearly 30 percent. of the national product, if we take into account the services of coal mining, electricity, and so on, is nationalised.
  Mr. D. Jones: Would the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) speak up? We cannot hear what he is saying.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: My hon. Friend said that already 30 per cent. of the national product—I suppose, including the Bank of England—is nationalised. I am not quite sure that I can accept his figures, but we have now had the admission that I.C.I. is to be left outside the nationalisation net. I should say that not more than 25 per cent. of productive industry is ever likely to be nationalised.
  Our Budgets can be used for social purposes such as these. Budgets are not merely accountancy machines. We take great trouble in making financial arrangements to bring about equity between one taxpayer and another and to relate direct to indirect taxation. We have social purposes in mind. I think that the two ideas I have put forward, although they may be long-distance ideas, would provide social benefit in the long run. We can relate our tax ideas to social beneficial purposes such as these. They are ideas on which neither side of the Committee would disagree,

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  because everyone agrees on the need for savings. We can tie up savings with long-term investment to benefit industry and employees.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. H. Rhodes: I am glad that the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) noticed that I was going to reply to some of the things that he had to say, and I will reserve my reply until he returns to the Chamber. Meanwhile, I should like to refer to what was said by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke). Some of his points were very good, but some were not so good owing to his lack of knowledge of the subject. He quoted what is happening in Japan. On the face of it, it would appear as if there were a real revolution and a departure from what has gone before. It is nothing of the sort.
  Fifteen firms are responsible for the whole of Japanese industrial exports and imports and five of those control 70 per cent. of the total. The system of wage payment is, first, a subsistence payment followed by a payment every six months according to how the firm has prospered. There is also a good deal of discipline to persuade workers who are thrifty to put the money back. The method of raising finance in Japan is different from that of any other capitalist State in that when money is required for a new object it is usually created and lent through the banks to the concern that applies for it. The hon. Member's ideas, therefore, do not apply to that country.
  I have no comments to offer about the relevance or, as Perry Mason puts it, the irrelevance or misleading statements or ambiguity about what happened on Tuesday when the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the news about the £100 million because I have lost faith in my oracle. When the present Leader of the House was Chancellor of the Exchequer I had an oracle. He was a gamekeeper who used to say to me, "I can tell when there is a credit squeeze coming much quicker than Selwyn Lloyd can". When I asked the reason he said that he observed from his hilltop that a private bus full of workers would climb over the hill and go over the other side and a similar bus would be coming from the other side full of workers to take
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  their place. He said "This is the time when we shall have a credit squeeze".
  In 1955–56 he was plumb on, and in 1959–61 he was dead right. Therefore, knowing that the Budget debate was due this week I went up the hill to consult the oracle and I asked him the same question. He said, "Well they have pumped up the tyres of the buses and they are running and there should be a credit squeeze coming on, but I do not understand this chap Maudling as I understood Selwyn Lloyd. He is more mysterious". So I am puzzled too.
  Now that the hon. Member for Louth has returned to the Chamber I want to say to him that we enjoy his interventions. I say that without patronising him. He needs no patronage. Sometimes the hon. Member reduces the House or the Committee to a bear garden. He nearly empties it and leaves us for the rest of the day very often at a loss. He criticised the Leader of the Opposition in extravagant terms which, on reflection, I think he will regret In what he said there was a touch of arrogance which he might have borrowed from others of his colleagues in suggesting that hon. Members on this side of the Committee must be precluded, by the very fact of their upbringing or their class or their associations in the past, and must be so pinned down that they cannot consort with the best brains in the land. That is how hon. Members would have it.
  Mr. Bence: That is how it comes over.
  Mr. Rhodes: Yes, that is how it sounds. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Louth for the work he has done in other fields I give him a pat on the back. I do not think that it is appreciated in this Committee how much the hon. Member has done for Anglo-Soviet relations. I say that sincerely, just as I am condemnatory of certain things which he has said today.
  The hon. Member asked two questions. I will answer the first, and the reference to Attlee, Cripps, Bevin and the rest. The hon. Member said that in their time the wage freeze was not successful and he asked how we could be expected to introduce one.
  The wage freeze which was introduced by Sir Stafford Cripps saved this country. It enabled us to export at a

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  time of great difficulty when the resources, limited as they were, had to be marshalled and mobilised to do that job. We also had the great difficulty of the Korean War and the chasing of our ships up and down the American seaboards with empty bottoms in the hope that we might have a little pittance from the Americans who were starving us of raw materials. I have the figures in my head for most of the commodities, but I will not waste time in giving them now.
  Then the Tories came to power and this was the making of the Tory Party. As a result of what Cripps and Attlee had done the company reserves were large and this enabled a new vista to appear over the commercial scene when it was possible to have new flotations and for the Stock Exchange to get cracking. This was the guts of the loyalty of back-benchers opposite, because in sitting for so long on this side of the Committee I have always noticed that morale is at a low ebb on the Tory side when Stock Exchange prices are going down.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: They are going up now.
  Mr. Rhodes: That is why the hon. Member's spirits are going up for a bit.
  Mr. William Shepherd Mr. William Shepherd (Cheadle) rose—
  Mr. Rhodes: I cannot give way now. I have a lot to say. Indeed, I have not started yet.
  We shall not make the same mistake twice. This will not happen again. After all the suspicions and dragging of feet that has gone on since that time, we always come back to this question: if we have a wage freeze, will the people who are interested in the Stock Exchange again cream off the benefits? That is a serious point.
  With regard to the next question of the capital gains tax, one of the grave omissions from this Budget is any reference to the working of the present capital gains tax, its amendment and the introduction of a new type of capital gains tax to meet the needs of the times.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Maurice Macmillan): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman,
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  but, on a point of fact, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer did refer to the fact that the figures for the short-term capital gains tax were not complete and, therefore, there is not enough information on which to form a conclusion yet.
  Mr. Rhodes: When the last capital gains tax was introduced by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer he gave an undertaking that its incidence would be reviewed in 12 months' time. We have not had that review.
  Mr. Macmillan: That is exactly the point. We have not got the 12 months' figures yet.
  Mr. Rhodes: We understood that they would be available this year. However, I will not dispute this point. I will accept what the Minister has said as an explanation.
  Let us consider its impact on the present situation in terms of an incomes policy which we all desire, in all quarters of the Committee, with all our hearts. Every Chancellor does. In all sections of our society we have embraced the Western idea of economic structure, mainly on American initiative and example, with all the things which follow after whether monopolies or r.p.m. or on the use of the motor car as one of the real economic regulators of the time. Now all the Chancellor needs to do is to introduce his brake in terms of hire-purchase deposits and the whole of the economy starts to run down. It has now reached the point at which he was aiming when he was at the Board of Trade, when he pressed for the enormous expansion of the motor car industry on Merseyside, in Scotland and elsewhere, until the motor car is now one of the pawns in the game.
  All over the Western world there is the same thinking in the unions, too. But the priorities are different. In America, the unions bracket the priorities of production and wages, with welfare and well-being a long way down the list, judging from some of the factories that I have visited. In Russia, when the hon. Member for Louth and I were there last May, we found that the first priority of the Russian union was productivity secondly well-being, and, thirdly,

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  wages. In this country wages come first, followed by well-being and then productivity.
  It is the desire of everybody, including the union leaders and the T.U.C., to get this order of priorities reversed. They are all working for it. How are we able to give some help to the people who matter, who are really trying to persuade and educate people to see this problem along Western, forward-thinking lines?
  Sir C. Osborne: While the hon. Member is on this point, will he tell the Committee what happened to us in the steel works in Leningrad on this very issue?
  Mr. Rhodes: I do not mind. There is all the evening in which to speak. In fact, if I speak as long as I have been waiting, I shall speak for a very long time.
  We met the principal Communist of Leningrad. He was also the managing director of the 22nd Congress Engineering Works. The day after we arrived there he invited us to visit his engineering works in which 15,000 workers were employed. We went into the factory with him, and as soon as the boss walked in, off came the caps. Of course, they even put them on again. They were working well. After a time I said to the managing director, who spoke perfect English, "How is it that these chaps are working so well?" "Oh", he said, "profit". I said, "I beg your pardon?" He said, "We are on profits here now. This factory is scheduled on the basis of 22 per cent. profit. Six per cent. comes back to the workers in the form of welfare, clinics and the rest."
  I thought to myself, "This cannot be the answer", so I said, "Excuse me, but I do not think this is the answer. They would not work as well as they are for that." "No", he said, "I did not tell you all. If we make an extra profit, 80 per cent. of the extra profit comes back to the management and the workers."
  I saw a man working at a bench and I asked him to come forward. He said that he was getting 50 per cent. on his wages in the form of a bonus. Was he happy about profits? My word, he was happy about profits! I asked whether he thought his boss was a good fellow
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  because he managed to get a low profit schedule agreed to by Gosplan. He thought his boss was wonderful.
  We went to lunch, at which the hon. Member for Louth was hobnobbing with the Communist leaders. He was not having a sherry either. The hon. Gentleman likes vodka too.[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Of course, he does. We all do. We all sat down to lunch, and after lunch one of the Russians asked if I would propose a toast. I said that I would. I am sorry that this story is going on for so long, but I can assure the Committee that it is very interesting.
  I got up and said that I was fascinated. I told them that I had found the Daily Worker on the dressing table when I had got up that morning and that, wanting to know a little about the Christine Keeler case, I had read it through from cover to cover. Among the items which I had read had been a leading article on profits in England, a diatribe on profits. I said, "I am mystified. I am only a simple man—I live on the hills—and I am absolutely bewildered. In England, the Daily Worker says, profits are wrong. Here they are all right."
  I told them that I could not do better than ask them to drink a toast to high profits—which they did—and they nearly fell off their chairs laughing. The hon. Member for Louth said that he would tell the Labour Party when we got back that I had proposed a toast to high profits. But they asked me to propose another toast because the first one had been so good. So then I proposed a toast to where the profits go—but I could not get a smile out of the hon. Gentleman with that. Perhaps I can go on with my speech now.
  I had got to the point of saying that the aims and objects of the unions were concerned with different priorities. Things are today in such a delicate state in terms of relationships between men, management and Government on this question of an incomes policy that something needs to be said in definite and plain language by the Government about justice being done and justice being seen to be done.
  I ask the Committee to consider whether this point I am about to make is conducive to a proper consideration

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  of an incomes policy. This is what was reported in the Observer of 5th January last, under the heading, "Cleaning up a textile fortune"—
  "Few men had a more satisfying Old Year in the stock market than Mr. William Stricker, an unobtrusive but very bright businessman of 39. Last week, Stricker made known some unsurprising news. He had taken up his option on one million H. W. Phillips shares worth some £900,000—every penny of which was pure capital gain."
  The report goes on to say how it was done, and towards the end we read:
  "Making the big money involved in his 1963 killing leaves Stricker unmoved."
  In another part of the report is the comment that
  "Stricker is strangely unenthusiastic about textiles,"
  and Stricker is reported as saying:
  "It is a volatile trade. I do not like volatile trades."
  Is that sort of thing right or is it wrong? Is it not reasonable to expect that the Government of the day should take action so that it cannot go on? If he can avoid it, this man does not intend stopping in the trade at all. But think about the scores of thousands who have been born and bred in it, who have been brought up in it, whose very living it is, and a living put in serious jeopardy by competition from abroad. They see this man come out into the open with action of this sort, scooping off £900,000 without doing anything for it or working for it. No wonder the people of Lancashire, when they see this sort of thing, sardonically say, "It is a damned sight better than working". This is why I answer the hon. Member for Louth and say that, of course, we should put a capital gains tax in the places where it is needed. And this is one.
  Now, a few words on a more technical matter. The ones who think that I shall be boring about it can now leave the Chamber. In his Budget speech the Chancellor said:
  "I know of no country in the world which gives so great a tax incentive to the installation of modern equipment, and I believe that if it should be true that businessmen are, in any cases, still reluctant to buy the most modern machinery we look beyond the tax system for the reasons."
  At another point, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "There is only one effective answer to growing imports of manufactures: to produce more
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  and more efficiently ourselves in competition with imports and to expand our exports."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th April, 1964; Vol. 693, c. 257 and 260.]
  The very industry which I have been talking about is one of the industries which has been climbing through its difficulties over the years, and is at the moment having a desperate struggle to survive.
  I wish now to comment briefly on those two observations of the Chancellor. I shall refer to manufacturing investment. Of all the subjects mentioned in the Budget, in the discussions leading up to it or in our economic debates, there is not one more important than this. There are two sorts of manufacturing investment possible, one for expansion and one for real productivity by doing more on the same floor space by better machinery. We had two peaks in capital equipment investment, in the "stops" and "goes" of 1956 and 1961. The boom brought out the demand for plant and machinery, quite naturally, just as it brought out the demand for more wages, encouraging the wage drift which has gone on. These two parallel processes can be seen if one looks down the graphs which appear in the Economic Report published just before the Budget.
  We made the investment, and, just at the time when a lot of the machinery ordered in the last boom was being delivered, what happened?—a 7 per cent. Bank Rate, the credit squeeze, the 10 percent. regulator, the paraphernalia of devices to hold down consumption, the calling for special deposits, and the like.
  The effects of this discouraged the manufacturers. They discouraged the people who make the machinery for the manufacturers. No development is consistently possible unless there is a steady current of trade coming through to these firms. If a firm is prepared to develop on the basis of steady trade, it cannot do so if it is pushed as hard as possible to deliver orders when it has them and then has nothing to do and faces disaster and possibly bankruptcy when there is a credit squeeze.
  I have always felt that the investment in capital machinery in 1959–61 contributed very little towards the growth of the economy during 1962–63. I am not alone in this premise. Those in the

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  office who produced the Economic Report for 1963 were also mystified by it, because they said:
  "What has been happening in 1963 is not fully clear; in particular, the change in the labour Force and the underlying growth of productivity are matters of some doubt, partly because some of the key figures may be revised later."
  They are not sure, and the problem is discussed more fully in paragraph 3 for those who want to read. My conviction is that the investment which took place in 1961 was because of the sudden upsurge given to the economy by all the devices put into operation by Lord Amory when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, when the Government were going, forward to the 1959 election. The result is that there has been a backlash of thinking in terms of it not happening again to the same extent.
  During the whole of 1963 we have been in a muddle about whether the increase in the use of productive capacity has contributed fully to growth, because it is impossible to tell what is production and what is productivity. I define production as bulk manufacture and productivity as doing more on the same floor space with less labour. Now manufacturers are a little more chary after their 1962 experience and they are being a bit more choosey about what they are buying.
  That in part accounts for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on Tuesday that a large element in the import bill was in respect of imports of new machinery. I do not grumble with that. As I have said many times in this Chamber, the British manufacturer must have access to the best machinery in the world. But it is sad to think that this machinery is not being made here. Until we have a steady investment policy which people can trust, we shall not have the technological processes of which we are capable and which we deserve.
  May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the 64,000 dollar question? Why is it that this country is spending more on research and development than any country in the world, with the exception of the United States, in proportion to the gross national product and yet we are at the bottom of the table of growth? The answer is obvious if one
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  takes a worm's eye view from the factory floor. I believe that we are devoting research and development to the wrong things. If any hon. Member wishes justification for what I have just said, let him go to the Vote Office and get the report which deals with the spending of public funds on the Ferranti case. If half that money had been available to one of the industries which has been fighting over the last few years to make technological progress, namely, the cotton industry, the situation would have been different.
  Our priorities are wrong. Let me give an instance of a wrong priority. Some years ago the D.S.I.R. gave a grant of £100,000 to the Shirley Institute for the development of a system of spinning which would make the operation automatic. After accepting the grant, it farmed out part of the development to a machinery firm. The development went slowly. The Government made no check on the speed of the development. They left it to the developers to go at the speed they liked. They reached the point where it was almost feasible to put a pilot plant on the factory floor. They had been preceded by the Japanese, and there was level pegging by the Russians on a similar project.
  During the final stages of the development, the Government brought forward a Bill to reorganise the cotton industry by which they asked that public money should be poured out for assistance to the cotton industry—in an election year. No question was asked about how far the developers had got with the project. No question was asked of the Shirley Institute about whether it needed another £100,000 to force the development through so that it would be ready for this phase of re-equipping. So millions of pounds of public money were poured out on conventional machinery.
  This is stupidity. It shows that the Government had no understanding of the situation. If we had had an intelligent Government administering the job, it would have been perfectly possible to have brought out a new system of spinning which would have been a break through and a godsend to Lancashire. We were nearly ready to have a pilot plant here when in a mill at Hamamatsu the Japanese had one of

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  these new plants operating alongside a conventional plant in one of their mills.
  The trouble has always been that in a time of boom one automatically buys the machines available at the price the manufacturer wants to charge and when he is ready to deliver them. We know all this by heart so I will not delay the Committee by repeating it. With a properly organised system to study investment in manufacturing industry—along with the proper technological development—there is no doubt that we could again make history in the manufacture of goods.
  The N.E.D.C. has done a wonderful job and has brought important ideas to the forefront. I hope that some of them will crystallise. But we should not appoint little N.E.D.C.s. first to go in for discussions on a lesser plane. They should be a task force with the agreement of the unions and employers and with the powers to sort out the difficulties so that plans are intelligently put in hand.
  I wanted to say a word about exports but I think I have spoken for long enough. However, I make no apology for doing so.
  Sir D. Glover: One is not needed. The hon. Member is making an excellent speech.
  Mr. Rhodes: Thanks. We are all fond of quoting figures, many of them meaningless. First, we must have a high ratio of exports to the national income. Hon. Members can sort that out for themselves. In the nineteenth century we achieved that high ratio. At that time we had sufficient technological advance to keep us ahead. By accident the textile industry did the job for Britain and we succeeded in building up a very high ratio of exports to the national income. Today technological achievements in various parts of the world are nearly universally developed and the prospects of our being able to export with a big enough ratio to the national income have therefore been lessened.
  The N.E.D.C., the Treasury and the Board of Trade should set up an organisation to assess world trade in every manufactured and semi-manufactured
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  commodity in which Britain has an interest. That having been done, our share of the world's trade in each commodity should be assessed and rated. If trade in a commodity is rising, our share must rise. If our share in a manufacture is high and world trade is declining in it, the full weight of our technological resources should be turned on that commodity so that we may hold our own.
  Sir C. Osborne: During the second part of the last Socialist Government the hon. Gentleman was an Under-Secretary at the Board of Trade. He knows that immediately after the war a manufacturer's allocation of raw materials was governed by the Board of Trade according to the amount of exports achieved. That worked well in an age of scarcity, but does he consider that it could work again in present circumstances? Is that what he is advocating?
  Mr. Rhodes: I would not like to answer that one way or the other off the cuff. I can only say that there are parts of British industry which do not need a fillip in terms of research and development. The new industries already have sufficient. Industries making goods with nylon, terylene, silicones and other new processes like floating glass and so on can look after themselves. The older industries are finding the greatest difficulty in holding their own.
  I can speak with personal experience of the wool trade. Our trade is up from £160 million to £166 million this year compared with last and we are doing a good job. Nevertheless, we need technological assistance to help us with new processes so that we may take advantage of what world trade there is in wool.
  If our share of world trade in a certain commodity is declining we should decide its importance to the home market, or otherwise get out. The Japanese are doing this and are getting out of their declining trades. They base their activities on this system and are showing the world how to go about getting more world trade in exports. I believe that there is nothing to prevent us from doing the same because, as has been said on so many previous occasions, we have the skills and the brains to do it.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. William Shepherd: I listened with considerable interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-lyne (Mr. Rhodes) and although he had some harsh, almost cruel, things to say about my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) earlier in his speech, they ended up on terms of almost nauseating affection. I am not quite clear which I prefer. I listened carefully to what the hon. Member said, particularly in relation to capital gains. I confess that I have some sympathy with his views, for I think that the time has come when some effort should be made by the Government to claw in some of the large profits made on the sale of land.
  From the practical point of view, this has not been possible until now because had it been done previously this sort of thing would have happened. A land seller getting, say,£30,000 for his land would, if he thought that his money would be subject to a greater amount of tax, charge, say, £40,000. In the development period from 1957 onwards it has been possible to get increasing prices for land and I fear that had this step been taken earlier that trend would have been accelerated, with the resulting higher prices for land. However, the situation has now been reached where every development proposition which one gets—and I am concerned with this business—is doubtful, owing, first, to the very high price of land, and, secondly, to the high cost of living, and, therefore, one cannot obtain higher prices with the existing degree of market resistance for the final product. Therefore, there is no danger in existing circumstances of prices being forced up unduly high by virtue of a betterment tax.
  Sir D Glover: I do not disagree with what my hon. Friend is saying; in fact, I go a long way towards agreeing with him, but surely there must be something wrong here. Is he really saying that people have been selling land for £30,000 when they could have got £40,000? Frankly, I do not believe that. Surely, if they could have got £40,000, they would have got it.
  Mr. Shepherd: My hon. Friend is obviously not following me with his usual care and attention. The price
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  which anyone would pay for land is governed ultimately by the price obtainable for the final product, bearing in mind also building costs. Up to now it has been possible to get an expanding price, an extending price, for the ultimate product. Now we have reached the situation where this no longer obtains. People are paying prices right up to the reserves of their income in buying houses. They are paying £3 a sq. ft. for offices in London. They will not go on paying these higher prices even in the centre of London. Now, as I say, there is a change in the situation, and a betterment tax could be put on without, in my view, attracting any serious increase in the price of land.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will pay some attention to this, because clearly it is socially and morally wrong for a man to have to pay very large sums of tax on his earned income while another man can make very large sums of money indeed through the sale of property without paying tax, since the increase in the value of land is determined entirely by the value of the end product which can be put on it.
  When listening to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) I was somewhat surprised. No one listening to that speech could suppose that there was a party poised on the brink of triumph. In fact, hon. and right hon. Members opposite really have nothing to say in serious criticism of the Government's handling of the economy. Theirs is a really pathetic attitude towards the problems of the present day. I do not want to make party political points because in the short time I have I want to try to deal with some of the fundamental problems.
  I think that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has in the past 12 months struck the pretty right balance and that we have made some progress along the lines of controlling our economy. Of course, we have not got the whole way; we have not achieved all of our purpose, but one can say, without any hesitation or doubt, that on almost every front things are better today than they have been for a very long time in terms of exports, in terms of industrial relations, in terms of capital investment. That

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  quite clearly indicates a measurable and substantial improvement over the conditions of past decades.
  Therefore, it is wrong to criticise, in the terms which I have heard today, the achievements of the Government. What is even more wrong is this attitude of hon. Members opposite, particularly the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), to try to talk us into a panic and the country into disaster. I know and every one of us in this Committee knows that we have fought an economic typhoon. That is an historical inheritance which we cannot avoid, but we are doing it with a good deal of nerve, the best nerve we have had since the war. To say, as the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East does, that there is a great danger and that we ought to do something about it is merely to discourage people who ought to have faith in us. After all, right hon. and hon. Members opposite may have to face the situation, and their duty is not to undermine the confidence which other people have in this country and which I think we ought to have in ourselves.
  What are the fundamental problems? I want to deal with some of the greater and mature problems. The first is the control and management of the economy. There is a little battle going on, I am told, on this side of the Committee, between those who express the view that everything should be left to the market and those who take the view that we should manage our affairs in a meticulous fashion. Of course, the answer is that both these viewpoints are wrong. We live in an age and in a society which is necessarily sophisticated, and it is quite true to say that any attempt to control this economy in a detailed sense is bound to be disastrous to the country and, politically, will lead to disaster for all those who attempt it. It is also equally true to say that in the broadest sense one cannot have an economy of our kind without its having direction and purpose. It is quite impossible for us to have a purposeless economy.
  I would say to those who take the view that everything should be left to the market and also to those who take the view that everything should be controlled meticulously, that it is wrong to try to decide every meticulous detail of
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  the economy by the Government or by some central organisation. Indeed, the more we try meticulously to organise the economy in detail, or to control a particular firm or industry, the less shall we be able to carry out the broad purposes of central direction in the widest sense.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite, of course, reduce this whole proposition to absurdity.
  Mr. Rhodes: No.
  Mr. Shepherd: Indeed they do. They say we must do it the hard way.
  Mr. Rhodes: No. We do not.
  Mr. Shepherd: We know quite well that one can achieve the broad social purpose of an advanced society by means of broad sweeps of the brush, but hon. Gentlemen opposite say, "No. Let us own and control and run these industries" Of course, they really saddle themselves with a tremendous headache. They would achieve the broad social purpose which they have in mind without all the detailed organisation which the ownership of industry involves them in. Let us look at some of the difficulties which arise. Look at the trouble we have been having lately with B.O.A.C. and the problems there of trying to deal in detail with such an organisation.
  Therefore, I say to those who contest these two views, the one that there should be detailed control of the economy and the other that we should leave everything to the market, that we should leave as much to the market as possible. Governments, and even this Government, have in recent years tried, perhaps, to leave less to the market than would have been sensible. Let the market decide as many problems as possible, but, on the other hand, do not let us forsake sound central direction, and do not let us underrate the great value of a strong national purpose, because in a modern society, if there is not a strong national purpose, the mere mechanism of the market is not sufficient. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said, if everybody decides to grab everything for himself we face disaster.
  The truth is that in a democratic society no Government can really bring in legislation which is designed to do

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  all the things which may be necessary to keep the economy solvent; unless they have the backing of their people in any definite purpose they cannot possibly succeed.
  I turn to what I consider the second fundamental, and that is the serious difficulty in which we find ourselves, despite our recent progress, because of the lack of dynamism in British society. Of course we are an old race, but we need not be decrepit. Of course we are doing less well than we should be doing, but that is no reason why we should continue to do less well. Yet there are inbuilt factors which contribute to our inertia which we must tackle with a radical enthusiasm. I emphasise the term "radical" in this sense.
  It is disappointing to me in the course of activities to come across repeated occasions in which the British are not leading where they should be. As the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne said, we spend enormous sums of money on research. It is depressing from time to time to find that we are not the leaders in the field where we are spending more in research than others who are spending much less. We must face up to this fact and try to inject into our society much more dynamism than we have at present.
  Let me say why I think that we have an inadequately dynamic society. The first reason is that we have a class society. The class structure in our society is damaging and inhibiting to our progress. The most urgent steps ought to be taken to eliminate the class fossilisation of our society. I do not propose, because it is slightly outside the ambit of the debate, to say what those steps should be. Reducing the dragging influence of the class structure of British society is of prime importance in achieving more dynamism.
  My second point is that we have too property-ridden a society. It is true to say that we have not such a property-ridden society as we had in the eighteenth century, but we still have a society in which the influence and power of property plays far too dominant a part. It is, of course, the fountain of such undesirable practices as nepotism and many other things of that kind. I should like to see a society in which the power and influence of property
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  were materially reduced, and I shall say how I think this might well be dealt with.
  The third baneful influence upon our dynamism is that we have an industry which, by and large, is bereft, particularly at the higher levels, of really effective price competition. This has again a very depressing effect upon dynamism. When one can acquire for oneself by a gentle manly and careful arrangement a comfortable existence then it is the end of real striving to swim against the stream.
  One of the urgent tasks for any Government is to bring in legislation to deal with monopolies and restrictions of all kinds legislation that has teeth in is. I would not hesitate to send people to gaol on this issue, because unless there are teeth in it I know that there will be evasion. Therefore, we must have very rigorous legislation against monopolies and restrictive practices.
  The fourth point which I think affects our dynamism is the old-fashioned people we have in the trade union movement. I do not refer to the professional feet-draggers of the Ted Hill type because they are a passing phase and they will go out of existence, and it will be all to the better of the country and the trade union movement that they do. Leaving aside the men of the Ted Hill mentality or lower, there still remains, in my opinion, an attitude of mind in the trade union movement, as indicated by the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne, which has its priorities all wrong. Until we get a change in the outlook of the trade union movement we have a further factor which drags upon the dynamism of our society.
  I want to see in the next decade or so so much greater opportunities in our community of getting rid of factors which destroy dynamism or which put a drag on it, because it is no good our giving greater educational opportunities to the community unless we give opportunities in business life which fit the education that people have. There is need for much greater opportunity here.
  What are some of the ways in which we can break down some of these factors? The trade union movement is looking at its own affairs, and one hopes that it will deal with this problem.

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  Employers are looking at their standards, and I think that it is true to say that the standards of management in this country are still lower than they should be and that leadership at industrial level is lower than it was 40 years ago.
  Forty years ago, a man who ran a factory not only gave leadership within it but also gave service to the community outside. Now he plays golf instead. The world has not benefited from these changes. How can we get rid of some of the dragging forces? One of the ways is, I think, through the Budget, by dealing with the issue of death duties. It seems to me that the position in which death duties have been allowed to remain is almost immoral, that we have a system of taxation on which one either pays or does not pay according to fortuitous circumstances. There is no attempt at equity in terms of death duties. There is no pretence at equity under our existing system. One may have to pay or not pay according to the lapse of one or two days.
  If one happens to get caught, and has a fair amount of money, one gets stung for a very large sum. Personally, I think that the first reform must be one which says that all evasion of death duty shall be brought to an end, whether it is legal or otherwise. Secondly, a tax should be instituted in its place which would cause every individual inheriting a sum over a certain amount to pay an appropriate rate of tax. I do not know what is the total wealth passing from one hand to another in any given year, but I know that the amount of death duties paid is derisory, and therefore a very large percentage must escape taxation. I should like to see a change made so that there is no evasion and so that the percentage taken from each individual is more reasonable than it is today.
  Then I should like to see a change in what is to my mind a serious development which has come on apace in recent years. That is the development of the settled family trust. This is a most anti-social development and I am very surprised that the House has not devoted some attention to it in recent years. One could say, quite rightly, that this is an inevitable product of high death duties, and, indeed, it is. That
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  is why I propose that we should change the method of death duties and the seriousness of their incidence. What is happening now in the form of settled family trusts is, to my mind, wholly disadvantageous to the community and bad in every conceivable sense of the word.
  We are now in the process, on a large scale, of separating responsibility from wealth. If there is any justification for wealth it is that attached to it there is responsibility. If one takes away responsibility, we are merely creating a vast army of remittance men who, instead of going overseas, are staying in this country. This is a deplorable situation. It is deplorable not only in the sense that it is damaging to the character and quality of those who have to receive remittances. We know from personal experience how damaging it can be to people who receive money in this way. But it also works the other way. The other day a constituent came to me who had a very large fortune left him, and he told me that the trustees are running it in a very bad way and that he is losing money.
  So I should like to see some attention directed—I do not propose to say what might be done—to the dangerous present incidence of the separation of responsibility from wealth. I do not mind wealth—I am all in favour of it—but I am not in favour of wealth from which responsibility has been divorced and the creation of a vast army of remittance men.
  It may be difficult to legislate against this sort of activity, and if we cannot legislate against it I should like to see us impose a differential tax on money received from settled family trusts. If there is an option to take wealth without responsibility there should be some penalty for so doing. I would happily support any Chancellor who brought in a proviso which instituted this very desirable reform.
  I have put forward one or two ideas for increasing the dynamism in our community. Clearly, we are here doing very much less than we ought to be doing and very much less than we could be doing. The British are one of the most able, ingenious and industrious races in the world. We have not had

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  the effect on the world that we have had because we are bereft of ability, but we have a society which has become far too fossilised. We must get much more flux into our society if we are to get the changes we want. Our greatest time of success in the commercial and industrial sense was when the leaders of new industries in the Industrial Revolution jostled with the landowners for some dominance in our society. We must create again the conditions under which this sort of thing becomes a possibility. Every part of the community, each political party and all those who take part in public affairs have, in my view, a responsibility to do something towards this end.
  We must face the very real fact that if we go on with the rate of progress we have had in the last 10 years we shall not be able to sustain our specially privileged place in the world. We must do better than the average country in Europe if we are to carry the burdens which we hold. The British people can do it if we can make our society sufficiently dynamic.
  7.23 p m.
  Mr Bruce Milan: I absolutely agree with a good deal of what the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) said. His proposals for taxation reform are quite radical and the kind of thing which has been advocated from this side of the Committee on many occasions. A capital gains tax, a more effective death duty, dealing with trust settlements and the rest—all these things meet a response on this side of the Committee. There is no need for the hon. Gentleman to try to persuade the Opposition of the necessity for these reforms.
  I very much agreed with the hon. Gentleman on one thing which he said about these reforms. He related them to a programme for making the economy more dynamic. This is absolutely right. Government spokesmen have very often—the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade did it yesterday—drawn a comparison between tax reform of the kind the hon. Gentleman mentioned, on the one hand, and a dynamic economy, on the other, saying that if we did all these things-if we penalised wealth in the way the hon. Member suggested—we could do it only at the expense of
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  keeping down economic growth, removing economic incentives and the rest.
  Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting me. I want to penalise wealth without responsibility. I do not want to penalise wealth in itself.
  Mr. Millan: But the argument is exactly the same.
  Mr. Shepherd: No.
  Mr. Millan: The hon. Gentleman has drawn attention to certain practices and features of our society which are undesirable from the point of view of economic growth, and suggested certain ways of tackling these unsatisfactory features—such as by means of a capital tax. The Opposition agree with that approach In particular, I agree with the relevance of that question to economic growth. In a recent report N.E.D.C. said that a wealth tax ought to be looked at from that point of view.
  The hon. Member for Cheadle having said all those very pleasant things, from our point of view, in the second part of his speech, it makes it all the more surprising that in the first part he said that the Chancellor's Budget was all right. If he thinks that the Government ought to have introduced these tax reforms, I am surprised that he should have found anything to be satisfied with in the Budget. In fact, the kind of reforms which he has mentioned are precisely the kind of reforms which could have been incorporated in this year's Budget.
  What happened was that the Chancellor drew up a Budget with virtually nothing in it, thinking that there would be a June General Election. But we are not to have a June General Election. We are to wait until October. So that excuse for omitting these taxation reforms no longer stands. In view of these circumstances, it is pathetic that we should have had such a thin Budget from the Chancellor this year.
  The only positive thing—it was not new—that the Chancellor said with which I agreed was that he would introduce power to apply regulators in a more flexible way if necessary later in the year. Unfortunately, people have become suspicious of the regulators because

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  they have been introduced from the point of view of putting tax up. It would be pleasant to see them introduced in circumstances in which the Government felt that later on in the year they might be able to reduce taxes.
  To put indirect taxes up and then consolidate them is a rather indirect but none the less potent way of increasing indirect taxation at the expense of direct taxation. We disagree with it from that point of view. But the principle of having the regulator at hand and the principle of not just confining taxation changes to the once-a-year Budget is a very satisfactory one, and it might do something to reduce the mystique surrounding the Budget which gives us the kind of rather absurd situation that we have had this year with an 85-minute speech and two comparatively minor taxation reforms at the end of it. The preface built up to nothing but an anticlimax. If we put more emphasis on taxation changes of the kind which could be introduced at any time during the year when circumstances warranted it, we might be able to manage the economy a good deal better than we have done so far.
  There is another general point about taxation changes which might well be made. This has some relevance to the thinness of the Budget. Many of the criticisms of our taxation system which have been made recently, particularly by supporters of hon. Gentlemen opposite, have been proved in the last couple of months to be completely unsubstantiated. We had the setting up of the Richardson Committee on turnover taxation. Its Report—I am sorry that it has not been mentioned more often in our debates—not only discloses that there is not a valid case for a value-added tax compared with the present Purchase Tax—this disposses of many arguments that I remember hearing last year from the other side of the Committee—but also disposes of the idea that British industry is particularly heavily taxed compared with our industrial competitors.
  The major service of the Richardson Report is that it blows sky high the fallacy that we are particularly highly taxed in this country from an industrial point of view. That must have been extremely discouraging to the Chancellor and to hon. Members opposite,
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  because one of their themes for many years was that if we only reduced taxation on industry our economy would go forward by leaps and bounds.
  Mr. Green: I do not want a wrong impression to be given. The hon. Gentleman will recall that the Chancellor said, quite rightly, that, although he appointed the Richardson Committee in everybody's interests, he had previously expressed some scepticism as to whether a value-added tax would be a good idea for British industry. If the hon. Gentleman looks up my right hon. Friend's views on this he will realise that the tenor of his own remarks may be a little unjust to my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Millan: I know that the Chancellor was sceptical about a value-added tax, as were many of us. But it was argued by hon. Members opposite that the Purchase Tax was out-dated, that we should eliminate all kinds of discrimination in taxes on goods and services, that we needed a flat-rate tax, that it could be done simply, and that it would give an element of dynamism in the economy.
  That claim has now been exploded by the Richardson Report, which has demonstrated that, if we put on that kind of overall sales tax, it would mean—if it meant anything different from the present system—taxing food and essential fuels. Now the issues have been clarified and a great deal of claptrap from hon. Members opposite no longer bears any kind of serious examination.
  Another fallacy has been that if only we improved the financial and taxation incentives to industry we could have an effective policy of regional development almost by that alone. I never believed this to be the case and I believe that events over the last year have shown that it is not. The Government are giving very generous capital investment allowances, depreciation allowances and general taxation arrangements for firms in the development districts. I agree with the Chancellor about that. I would not wish to oppose these things if they are all that the Government have to offer, but I believe that the difference they make to regional development is very marginal.
  Unless there is a tough I.D.C. policy and the whole economy is geared to the

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  development of the under-developed districts, unless we avoid the kind of approach—the defeatism—we have seen in the South-East Study, and unless we have a whole complex of measures going forward in the under-developed districts not only for industry but for roads, hospitals, houses, schools and the rest, tax incentives will make only a marginal difference to the programme of regional development.
  That is why I feel that we should resist any further tax incentives for regional development. Perhaps that is not a popular thing for a Scottish Member to say, but I am sure that we now have as much as we need—many would say far too much—of tax incentives and that more direct methods are needed if we are to get a really vigorous economy all over the United Kingdom.
  I am not dismissing the tax arrangements out of hand. Nor am I saying that there is nothing we should be doing with the tax system to get this element of dynamism which is lacking in the economy. The kind of programme I would prescribe is very much the kind of programme the hon. Member for Cheadle has been talking about. I would simply add one particular aspect to what he said. That is that the programme is important not only from the point of view of getting an element of dynamism into the economy, but also of getting an acceptable incomes policy. I wish that the Government would appreciate this aspect.
  We are told, for example, that dividends and profits are not particularly important and that the proportion of the national income they make up is not nearly as high as the proportion of wages and salaries, so that we need not bother too much about what happens to profits and dividends. Already, the F.B.I. says that there should be no control on profits and dividends.
  Of course, it can be proved that dividends are a comparatively small element in the total income as compared with wages and salaries. But, of course, they are going to a comparatively small number of people and it is psychologically and politically impossible to get the ordinary trade unionists—I am not talking about union leaders, backward or progressive by whatever kind of definition we might use—and the ordinary
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  wage and salary earners to accept income restraint unless the Government do something about dividends and profits.
  Even if the figures involved are comparatively small when put alongside wages and salaries it is, I repeat, psychologically and politically impossible to get an incomes policy unless the Government tackle profits and dividends at the same time. It is because the Government will not recognise that truth that they have had such a dismal failure in getting an incomes policy.
  What people are concerned with is to feel that there is fairness in the economic and taxation systems. But the Government have completely failed to ensure this. Few people, except those who are benefiting from it, really feel that the tax system is fair. They see capital gains being made and property speculation and the rest, and, quite naturally, ask why, if these gains are going untaxed, they should pay their fair share of tax and be denied more than 2½ per cent. or a 3 per cent. salary increase. It is impossible to persuade people of the fairness of an incomes policy unless the Government deal with things like capital gains.
  I now turn to the question of the balance of payments, because I believe that this has been the second main item of consideration during this debate. I do not think that I am doing the Chancellor an injustice if I say that what he said about the balance of payments was, roughly, that there is a risk that we might have a balance of payments crisis, but that he is prepared, at this stage, to try to ride things out and hope for the best.
  I believe that to be a fair summary of his position and it is ludicrous for the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade to pretend that it is not. I know that the word "complacency" is overworked in this Chamber, but the fact remains that the Secretary of State's speech yesterday was complacent—far more complacent than the Chancellor's.
  The Secretary of State pooh-poohed any kind of ideas from this side of the Committee or even from the Chancellor or the N.E.D.C. about improving our balance of payments position. What was particularly depressing, to me at least, in hearing the Secretary of State was the

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  way in which he pretended that so many of these suggestions were completely trivial in comparison with the problem we have to face.
  But, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) pointed out, the balance of payments problem is a marginal one. We are really talking in terms of £100 million or £150 million in relation to exports approaching £500 million. That is why it was so absurd and depressing for the Secretary of State to say that some of these suggestions were trival because they were concerned only with £200 million or £300 million.
  Quite a number of important suggestions have been made and we are beginning to reach a far clearer appreciation of the balance of payments problem than we have ever had. It has always appalled me that, although this has been our most difficult and endemic economic problem, we have had so little information about it at any time since the end of the war, that we have known so little about the actual facts of the situation and have so little analysed it, apart from suggestions of policy to deal with it. We are now beginning to get some of the basic facts of the problem and to appreciate that it has to be tackled in many different ways. That is why I was depressed when the Secretary of State turned down most of the suggestions almost out of hand.
  For example, as N.E.D.C. has pointed out, import savings are important, especially import savings on semi-manufactured and manufactured goods. The Secretary of State said yesterday simply that industrialised countries as a whole were tending to trade more and more among themselves, so that world trade in manufactured goods was expanding very rapidly. We know that that is so and that, to a large extent, it is inevitable; but was the Secretary of State saying that because of that it was absolutely unimportant whether we tried to produce things here for ourselves which we would otherwise have to import?
  That was the tenor of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, but that is an absolutely false way of looking at the position. The N.E.D.C. report on the growth of the economy, only last month, estimated that between 1961 and 1966 imports
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  of semi-manufactures and finished manufactures to this country would increase from £1,170 million to £1,790 million. Incidentally, that is the biggest increase in all kinds of imports forecast for that period of five years.
  An increase of £620 million is important when one is discussing a balance of payments deficit on a margin of about £100 million, or £150 million. We must look at this problem not just on a general basis. The tendency in past years simply to exhort British industry to export more has not taken us very far. I am looking forward very much to the kind of studies, which the little N.E.D.C.s will undertake, of individual industries, because it is important that this kind of thing should be tackled industry by industry, and we are just not doing that at present. There are one or two conspicuous exceptions, but at present we do not know which industries are letting us down and which are doing a worthwhile job in exports on international comparisons.
  The qualification "on international comparisons" is important. It is misleading to say that our exports of such and such a kind of goods have risen by so much over the last five or 10 years without relating that to the worldwide demand and to the world-wide increase in the trade in those goods. That is the kind of slick argument which we had from the Secretary of State yesterday, and I very much hope that we will get a much more precise and detailed analysis so that we can know which industries are doing a good job and especially which are letting the nation down.
  Mr. Shepherd: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he wants to stop some of these semi-manufactures coming to this country? Is not this a very dangerous thing to do? Is it not a fact that we have some inefficient producers of raw materials in this country simply because far too high tariff barriers are protecting them?
  Mr. Millan: I am not saying that we want to stop them coming into the country in the sense of imposing physical or tariff controls against them. On the contrary, if an industry is inefficient, I would far rather that it did not have tariff protection unless there

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  were good physical or financial reasons for the inefficiency, or at least for the inability to compete freely. I would far rather that tariff controls were removed and the full rigours of competition able to take place.
  But I am not saying that. I am saying simply that we must not be complacent with these exports when, with a little organisation and perhaps even a little extra information to the industries concerned, they might be increased. In some cases it is simply that the industries do not know the opportunities which are available in this country, much less the opportunities available abroad. I am not in favour of doing this by physical or financial controls. I believe that the problem has to be tackled in a more positive way.
  Then there is the subject of stock piling. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State took it as one of the facts of life that as soon as industry in this country began to expand at a rate of 5 percent. or 6 percent, per annum, imports for stockpiling purposes had to go up by 10 percent., or 15 per cent. per annum. I have always found extreme difficulty in understanding why that should be so, unless we were operating in a period of world shortages. This might have been all right up to 1950, but it is not all right now.
  This short-term problem of stockpiling would very much repay more study than is now being given to it. I should like N.E.D.C. to make a study of stock-piling, because I am sure that it is not only bad for the country, but inefficient for the industries concerned that they should be stock-piling so rapidly to meet what, after all, by world standards is a quite modest increase in the economy.
  There then conies the subject of private capital exported abroad by individuals or by companies. At £150 million, this is another of the "trivial items" which the Secretary of State mentioned. It is all right if that capital is going to underdeveloped countries, but we know that even when it goes to the Commonwealth, in many cases it goes to developed countries and in many cases for purposes of no particular economic advantage to this country, the Commonwealth or anybody else.
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  If the balance of payments were not a problem, we could well allow that to go ahead unrestricted, but when the balance of payments problem is such a fine problem, such a delicate problem, and when so much of our economy depends oil solving it, it is madness not to look a great deal more carefully at the export of private money abroad.
  We ought to examine the taxation provisions for overseas trading corporations. These are designed to discourage these corporations from remitting profits back to this country and, in effect, therefore, they are designed to have a detrimental effect on the balance of payments position.
  Mr. Green: They are not designed to encourage the remittance of profits back to this country, but to encourage reinvestment in countries which need capital.
  Mr. Jay: Same thing.
  Mr. Green: With the greatest respect, the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) knows perfectly well that it is not the same thing because the intention is wholly different. One cannot have it both ways, which is what the Opposition are trying to do. They cannot encourage the ploughing back of profits in overseas territories in the form of aid, and, at the same time, claim that that is an entirely wrong thing to do in terms of this country's responsibilities overseas.
  Mr. Millan: The fallacy in that argument is that the taxation provisions for overseas trading corporations are so indiscriminate that in some cases they may be desirable from the point of view of aiding under-developed countries, so that profits should not come back to this country, while in other cases there is no reason why we should encourage those profits to remain abroad when we have this delicate balance of payments situation.
  Without quoting the actual figures that we now have, I think for the first time, a table in the 1963 Annual Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, showing to what extent we have lost revenue, and I think that we have also lost out on the balance of payments, because of the overseas trading corporation provisions.

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  I agree that this is a matter of judgment and that there are arguments on both sides. When the balance of payments position is so delicate, it is monstrous that any suggestion that we should look at it again is treated with the kind of contempt which the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade showed yesterday to so many of the proposals that came from this side of the Committee.
  The same thing is true of invisible earnings. My hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Ginsberg) has been carrying on almost a one-man campaign about invisible earnings. There ought to be a more detailed investigation of this question. It is rather salutary to remind ourselves that shipping services are now a net debit to this country. This is one of the great trade carriers of the world and yet there is a net debit balance in our balance of payments for shipping services. This is an appalling situation We all know that there are difficulties in the world shipping situation, but there does not seem to have been any genuine attempt on the part of the Government to consider the whole question of invisible earnings to see whether it is possible to make what again might be only a marginal improvement, but nevertheless a significant improvement, in our balance of payments situation.
  On exports, I was impressed by what my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Rhodes) said about Japan and about the organised way in which she conducts her export programme through a comparatively small number of export corporations. There are, of course, elements of subsidy involved, and these are difficult from the point of view of G.A.T.T. and I would not necessarily suggest that we should adopt subsidies for exports, but, on the question of the organisation of exports, I think that there is a good deal to be done in this country.
  Call it co-operative export marketing, or anything else one likes, on an industry by industry basis there is a lot to be done. We could have a significant effect on exports if we looked at the organisation of exports, taking one industry with another. I hope that this is the kind of thing which the "little Neddies" will be able to do for the industries in which they are being set up.
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  I have not gone into any detail, because I come back to the point that I do not believe that we have enough information about any of these matters. These are positive ideas, and it was the lack of positive ideas in the Chancellor's speech, in the speech of the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade yesterday, and in the apology for a speech from the Financial Secretary today, which was the most conspicuous and depressing thing of all that we have heard from Government spokesmen.
  As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday, they give the impression of being a tired Government on their way out. But I should have thought that even a tired Government would have shown a spark of life, a spark of some kind of positive policy in what is, after all, the last Budget before the General Election. But we did not get that from the Government, and when they are so tired and so dispirited that they cannot produce even an election Budget, I believe that it is time for them to go.
  7.53 p.m.
  Sir Douglas Glover: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) ruined what I thought was about the best speech I have heard from the benches opposite by his final remarks. Before he sends his letter to the Press saying that he made a magnificent speech in the House of Commons, may I tell him that I have been appalled at the complete lack of dynamic thinking, or force, or even forcefulness, in the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Starting with the Leader of the Opposition's speech on Tuesday, I was very disturbed because, apart from politics, I am rather fond of the right hon. Gentleman. He talked about a tired Government and a tired Budget. He appeared so tired and so exhausted that I labelled him a "walking zombie" I have never heard anybody who was so depressing or so ineffectual as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday when he spoke after the Chancellor sat down.
  Yesterday the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) started with a great song and dance, but I am afraid that the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) got him into

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  awful trouble before he completed his speech. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East was going to tell us what the Socialists' policy was, what their financial policy was going to be, how they would control the affairs of the nation, and so on. Somebody referred to the hon. Gentleman as the Shadow Chancellor. A better name is the eye-shadow Chancellor, because he spent all the time dressing up those midnight hags of nationalisation and physical control in leather jackets and kinky boots in the hope that they would not be recognised. There was not a new thought in his speech, with the exception of the one point about exports, and I shall come to that. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will perhaps know that I am going to be a little critical of some of the details in his speech about the export problem.
  After reading HANSARD, and after listening to the whole of the debate, with the exception of two hours last night, it is extraordinary to discover the extent to which hon. Gentlemen opposite have quoted from N.E.D.C. Anybody would think that this was the brain child of their own ingenuity. N.E.D.C. was the appointment of Her Majesty's Government. It has done, and will continue to do, a good job of work. Anyone who has been in this House for any length of time and has listened to the debates on the Budget and on economic affairs over the last ten years knows that in a changing society we have a11 along been searching for improved ways of doing this, that, and the other, and those hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who are honest enough to admit it know that we have been running a knife-edge economy and that it was not surprising that from time to time we ran into difficulties. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. Macmillan) was Chancellor of the Exchequer he coined the expression that it was not much use looking up a train in last year's Bradshaw and then going to the station and finding that they had altered the times. That is true about statistics.
  The hon. Member for Craigton said that we were now getting information. I think that he could have been generous enough to say that he was getting the information from a Conservative
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  Government who had brought in the machinery whereby that information was now forthcoming. On the modernisation programme, which has been put before Parliament and the people, on education, health, and so on, I think that I was the first person in the House, about seven years ago, to say that one reason why we ran into difficulties was that we did not have a forecast for five years ahead. In other words, that one could not plan the school building programme, the house building programme, the programme for road modernisation, and so on, on a one-year Budget. As any hon. Member who was in the House at that time will agree, the view taken was that Parliament was responsible for finance and, therefore, Parliament must never commit itself more than twelve months in advance. The result was that programmes could not be planned for more than one year ahead, because if longer-term plans were made the old Parliamentary tradition of us being responsible for the control of the finances of the nation would be broken.
  As a result of new thinking, this Government, this so-called tired, lethargic Government, have altered that system and we are now in a position to deal with the problem in a more coherent way, because now we can see the picture of what is going to happen over a period of not one year but perhaps five to ten years. But that was a creation of the Tory Government. They created N.E.D.C.
  Hon. Members opposite have criticised the fact that some N.E.D.C. recommendations have not been put into practice. But the hon. Member for Craigton gave me the whole case when he said that the problem of exports and imports was a marginal one, and that he was not saying any king more than that it should be looked at. That is how I approach these problems. The N.E.D.C. says, "Here is a problem". It is not possible to arrive at a solution of the problem immediately. The hon. Member said that these are very difficult matters, which have to be weighed up and considered. Many other people have to be consulted.
  We are dealing with a new organisation, which is producing ideas. We are not quite certain whether all its ideas

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  are bang on; we must not have a rush of blood to the head and put them all into operation. We must sift them out first to find whether the ideas themselves are good. The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Rhodes) put forward some very good ideas, but in nearly every case he said, "This would be a good idea, but I am not going to tell you how to put it into operation" One of the problems that we are now up against is that N.E.D.C. is producing some good ideas—some better than others, but they have to be sifted.
  Mr. Millan: My point is that though these ideas are worth looking at the Secretary of State yesterday, in order to make cheap debating points, looked disparagingly at them all.
  Sir D. Glover: Is the hon. Member referring to his own speech?
  Mr. Millan: No—to the Secretary of State's speech, yesterday.
  Sir D. Glover: Owing to the speeches he heard from hon. Members opposite, the Secretary of State yesterday rightly spent most of his time in pointing out that for the last twelve or eighteen months this country has been putting up a very good performance. We must remember that speeches made in this House do a great deal to create a climate of economic opinion not only in this country but in the world at large, on which Britain's prosperity depends. Yesterday the Secretary of State was speaking with confidence, and his was a very powerful speech, in that context.
  The third reason for congratulating the Government on having done a good job of work arises from the fact that, although ever since the war we have been running on a knife-edge economy, with the ever-present problem of full employment and the consequent problem caused by society sucking in imports, together with the necessity to increase exports, the Chancellor is now in a far stronger position. He deserves a great deal of credit for it. The reserves that we can mobilise overseas are far greater today than they were five years ago. Surely hon. Members opposite can at least be honest and generous enough to give credit where credit is due. It is under this Government and
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  this Chancellor that the mobilising of our reserves—the I.M.F. and the other things mentioned by my right hon. Friend—has gone on.
  The hon. Member for Sowerby will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that whereas formerly we had the right to call upon about 1,000 million dollars, the figure is now about 4,000 million dollars. This means that we can probably get through the difficult phase of restocking without creating a lack of confidence in our economy. Furthermore, the Chancellor, with the steady growth that he has maintained from 1962 into 1963 and then into 1964, has allowed the economy to expand on a much healthier basis than has happened on one or two occasions in the past—and I do not want to make any direct criticism of my right hon. Friend's predecessors.
  One reason why he has been able to do that is that more information is now available. It is provided by a team. My right hon. Friend did not produce all the organisations that provide the information. The process started in 1955, and it has gradually grown. Today these organisations are much more efficient at producing this information.
  Mr. D. Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us precisely what features make this expansion so much more healthy and more likely to be sustained than the expansions which took place in 1955 and 1959?
  Sir D. Glover: I am sorry; the hon. Member has not been listening to some of the things that I have been saying. First, we have a far stronger overseas position, and the right to mobilise far stronger reserves than we have previously had, ever since the war. Secondly, expansion has been much more gradual. It is, therefore, much more likely to continue.
  An incomes policy is of vital importance, but three or four years ago, when this subject was debated in the House, no trade unionist opposite would admit that there was even a problem. If you turn to the speeches of four years ago you will find that there was a lack of appreciation of the problem or a willingness to admit that it existed on your part.
  Mr Mitchison: On a point of order. I wonder how many trade unionists there are on your side of the House, Sir Ronald?
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir Ronald Russell): That is not a point of order.
  Sir D. Glover: I apologise to you, Sir Ronald. I know that there are no trade unionists on your side who will intervene in this debate.
  The first criticism to which the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East devoted a great deal of his time was that there was a regressive element in our present taxation system. He said that far too much of the tax was levied by indirect as opposed to direct taxation. But the hon. Member for Sowerby gave me the whole case when, in his article in Encounter, he said:
  "A tax system suited to the affluent mass-production economy of the second half of the twentieth century is almost bound to rely more and more upon indirect taxation."
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: I am glad that the hon. Member has given me the opportunity, first, of saying that the article did not appear in Encounter but in the Twentieth Century Quarterly, and secondly, that what I wrote there was in the context of a wide survey of our taxation system. If he quotes part of it he should quote the whole, because there is much in that article which deals with direct taxation and which the hon. Member would not applaud to the same extent. When I said that I thought it inevitable that the Government would come to rely more and more on indirect taxation, that was not to say that I was in favour of steepening the rate of indirect taxation. The regulator is indirect taxation. The additional taxation which the Chancellor is imposing now is indirect taxation, more for economic than for revenue purposes. On the whole front of economic regulation in relation to taxation, I point to the use of the instrument of indirect taxation because it is more effective and rapid in its operation than is the instrument of direct taxation. One must get away from conventional thinking on this matter and from conventional quotations from articles. Here was a new theme, a new concept; the sort of modernisation and the sort of new thinking that the hon. Gentleman is inviting from this side of the Committee.
  Sir D. Glover: I am very glad that I gave way to the hon. Member for Sowerby, because what he has said has been very helpful to me in presenting my argument.
  My criticism of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East—the Shadow Chancellor—was that he used nearly all his speech to say how wrong it was that indirect to taxation should have been increased. The hon. Member for Sowerby has said that one of the reasons for using indirect taxation is that it bites much quicker. The reason why the Chancellor used indirect rather than direct taxation to deal with this problem of an overflow in the economy is because it bites much quicker. It would not have been very satisfactory—however popular such a move might have been among hon. Members opposite—had my right hon. Friend increased direct taxation, because the yield from it in the first six months would have been virtually nothing. This indirect form of taxation begins to yield from the week in which it starts, and he is quite right, in his endeavour to siphon off some of the purchasing power, to increase taxes in the way in which he has.
  Now I find myself in the same position as the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Rhodes)—as a result of the interruption of the hon. Member for Sowerby I have lost my place.
  I wish now to refer to imports. I go quite a long way with the hon. Member for Craigton. We are here dealing with marginal things. The balance of payments problem relates to perhaps £200 million in a good year, or perhaps £300 million—that sort of figure. We are importing a great many things which perhaps we could produce ourselves. But one frequently finds a situation in which, because there is a temporary shortage, something is being imported; but that in the following year, when an incentive has been provided to encourage someone to produce this article at home, there is a surplus. Goods bought from overseas are designed to fill a temporary need. There is a lot to be said—as has been suggested by N.E.D.C.—for looking at our imports and considering whether we would provide more incentives like we provide to encourage industrialists to develop in Scotland and the north-east of England. I wonder

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  whether my right hon. Friends would consider providing incentives to encourage firms to produce those categories of goods which are at present being imported in excessive quantities; whether it would be possible to give firms an incentive to build new factories and to tool them in order to make some of the commodities which we obtain from overseas.
  If we can provide the incentives—without breaking agreements under the G.A.T.T.—such as we provide to persuade firms to open factories in the North-East or in Scotland—which, if the firms enter the export market must take the form of a hidden subsidy on the exported goods because costs would be lower—why is it completely impossible for us to devise an incentive system for manufacturers such as I am suggesting? This is an old argument of mine which I have advanced on many occasions, and I have been told that such a thing is not practical, that it could not be done without breaking every international agreement ever signed by this country.
  That may be so, but in travelling round the world I have come to the conclusion that a lot of other countries seem to get round their agreements much more easily than we do. What difference is there between an incentive of the kind which I am proposing and one to persuade someone, perhaps against his will, to open a factory in Darlington instead of Dorking? It seems to me that the country must be responsible for its own economy and if such an incentive can be applied internally in respect of one thing, it ought to be applicable in respect of another. Perhaps the better way would be to have a look at the items of manufactured goods to see whether some incentive could be given to firms to make these goods which would assist our balance of payment problem. We shall have this difficulty for a long time. It is a knife-edge problem. There is a need to increase exports; the standard of living is rising with a demand for increased imports, and this in a world where competition is growing and where no one owes us a living. The only way in which we shall earn our own living is by incentives, by drive and initiative.
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  I have tried to speak as did the hon. Member for Craigton in a non-controversial manner, but we all seem to want to finish in a "barnstorming" Fashion—
  Mr. Houghton: I wish to hear the hon. Member's peroration.
  Sir D. Glover: The hon. Member for Sowerby should not ask me to finish as quickly as all that. I have listened patiently to him for hours.
  During the speeches to which I have listened from the other side on Tuesday, Wednesday and today, the speakers have said that this Budget is irrelevant and that the Chancellor has imposed taxes which are wrong and which will prove to be a burden on the wrong people. If that impression was created among hon. Members opposite why were there no Divisions on the Resolutions?
  Mr. D. Jones: The hon. Member must wait, they will come.
  Sir D. Glover: I do not mind that there were no objections, but why did we have none? Hon. Members opposite cannot say it is because they had not studied the Resolutions. Their great leader, who was so tired that, as I say, he looked like a walking zombie, said that there was nothing to study. I suppose it was that hon. Members opposite wanted to wait in order to see whether the proposals would be politically popular.
  What has come out of this Budget debate is evidence of a great desire among hon. Members opposite for increased taxes. I consider that there are no good taxes but that some are better than others. After listening to speeches made by hon. Members opposite, I think that there are a number who would genuinely like to see taxes increased. The hon. Member for Craigton had great difficulty in preventing himself from advocating this as something which was a good thing and in the national interest. That is a philosophy which I do not share, and I think this should be made clear to the electorate.
  We have had no talk in this debate of what anyone would do about the question of modernisation and the capital programme that the Government

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  have instituted. The Leader of the Opposition talked repeatedly of the need for a Government with social purpose. I agree that we need such a Government and we have got one. I am delighted to be in this Committee and able to support them.
  We brought in a Budget of £7,900 million or £8,000 million, the bulk of which is to be spent on social purposes in this country. The programmes we have put before the nation and Parliament in all the great fields of endeavour show that activity in them will rise and we have to have this expanding economy if the Bills are to be met over the next three or four years. This came from my speech seven years ago which called for a forecast Budget to produce a programme for some years ahead. We have presented that to Parliament. Is not this a party of social purpose? Is not this a social purpose; is there, not some drive about it? Of course there is.
  It is shadow boxing when we have these sneers and cracks from the Leader of the Opposition about a "candy floss economy". If anyone has gained advantage from television programmes, it is the Leader of the Opposition. His "candy floss economy" has captured the minds of many people, but they would find great difficulty in understanding what he means.
  This country is being governed with social purpose. The enormous rise in our standard of living and social welfare in the last 12 years is something in which we of the Conservative Party can take pride and from which the nation has benefited enormously. If the people want to continue in that way they will make a change when the election comes at their peril.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Milne: I wish to follow the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) in only one respect. He wound up his speech on the question of the social purposes shown by the Government. It is precisely because of the lack of social purpose over the last 12 years that the country is now seeking a change.
  Two factors have emerged from speeches of hon. and right hon. Members opposite in regard to the Budget and the economic situation. They have confused very much the question of
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  personal affluence with the social wealth of the nation. There are one or two points which have to be made in this respect. While it is true that there are many thing; which the people failed to enjoy in the 'twenties and 'thirties of this century, at this moment in the second half of the century the difference between what the ordinary folk of Britain have and should have is possibly greater today than at any other period in our history because we are failing to distribute properly the tremendous increases in wealth. As this personal affluence has increased, as wealth has gone into fewer and fewer hands, the state of the social wealth of the nation has been revealed, not in the speeches of hon. Members on this side of the Committee but from the numerous committees set up by the Government to examine our social problems.
  Whether it be in the realm of school building, of roads, of development of our cities, extension of our universities, building of hospitals or provision of housing for the people, in all social purposes of her the past 12 years the Government have lamentably failed. If there is and description which can be applied to this Budget it can be that it was an unnecessary one because it was never intended. The Government had to continue their period of office because of the misdemeanours of one of their Ministers and the illness of the Prime Minister in October. We can sum it up by calling it a flamboyant but flimsy Budget. It is very much like the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the Dispatch Box on Tuesday when he pulled a flask of coloured liquid from his pocket and fortified himself to get through the second half of his statement.
  The hon. Member for Ormskirk has unfortunately now left the Chamber. I do not criticise him for that because he has been sitting in the Chamber for a very long tine. He spoke about the tiredness of the Leader of the Opposition, but I think he should have paid some attention to the tiredness of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We are constantly asked from the Front Bench and the back bent her opposite what we would do if we were in office. That is an unnecessary sort of question. I recollect participating in the Budget debate two years ago when the present Leader of the

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  House who had introduced his Budget was then being lauded to the skies by those on the back benches opposite for the sagacity he had shown. By July of that year he and a number of other members of the Government had disappeared to the back benches. They had been sacked.
  We do not know what will happen to the present occupant of the office. The exercise of throwing across to us the question, what would we do if we were in power, is rather like our asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he would have done if he had been the Leader of the Conservative Party from October last year to the present time. He possibly would not have acted in the clueless, senseless manner in which the present holder of the office has acted since then. Since the Leader of the House introduced his Budget many of us have been pressing the Government to look at the question of the 15 percent. tax which was then put on wholesale prices of sweets, soft drinks and ice-cream. Instead of relinquishing or releasing pressure on those things, the Government have gone to the other extreme and have clawed in another £103 million from consumers.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. D. Jones) said earlier today, the burden bears most heavily on the lower-wage earners and pensioners. This is the classic difference between the effect of direct taxation and the effect of indirect taxation, because the ratio of taxes to be borne decreases in ratio to the amount of wages earned. A person earning £40 or £50 a week does not find such great difficulty in meeting the impositions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the old-age pensioner and the person earning £9, £10 or £11 a week has to use a higher proportion of his income to meet those impositions. We are told that this is merely part of the process, that we have been doing too well and that some check must be put on the progress of the economy.
  In 1956 the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) also had a point to make as Chancellor of the Exchequer, a point which again was applauded by hon. and right hon. Members opposite. He said:
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  "The rate of our progress during recent years has made it necessary to slacken the pace a little, but the great forward march goes on."
  This was flamboyant language, but completely irrelevant to the conditions of the times.
  I want to talk about the problems of my constituency and of the North-East, because when the then Chancellor of the Exchequer was talking in 1956 about the great forward march, our unemployment figures were much the same as those for the rest of the country. At this moment of time, despite all the trumpetings about improvement—and there has been improvement compared with last year, for one can play as one likes with statistics—our rate of unemployment now is double the national level. This for the North-East is not a question of a great forward march.
  Then we have the present Prime Minister, who is careful to go to the South to challenge the Leader of the Opposition and ask, "Has he not heard about full employment?" We have not heard about full employment in Scotland or the North-East since 1956–57
  Mr. D. Jones: Nor in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Milne: Nor are there any Northern Ireland Members present to raise this matter. I have no intention of speaking on their behalf, because an area which sends so many Conservative Members to Westminster does not deserve great sympathy except for the people of Northern Ireland who have suffered from the misdemeanours of this Government.
  The Prime Minister came to Newcastle, but he did not refer to full employment there. He spoke in an airy fashion about plans which were in the course of fruition. The only thing that we remember the Prime Minister for in the North-East was that the Tyneside sleeper train left Newcastle Central station eleven and half minutes late on the night when he visited the city.
  I have possibly divided loyalties as a Scot representing a North-East constituency on the question of the siting of the Post Office Savings Bank, but I hope that some sort of statement will be forthcoming from the Government Front Bench that, in view of the fact that the

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  Bank is to be established in Glasgow, the North-East will have the building of the Cunarder which we ought to have had two years ago if the Government had been vigorous in their policy. I said at the time that I was proud of the fact that this decision had been taken by the Government, but the length of time which they have taken to put it into operation has made a considerable difference to the situation. We look forward with the keenest expectation to hearing within a short space of time that we shall have the Cunarder built on the Tyne.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) mentioned in his speech yesterday the question of factories being used by the Government to manufacture some of the goods which are now being brought in from overseas. I would welcome this move, because of recent happenings in my constituency and throughout the North-East. We were told during the recent county council elections by a prominent figure in the Conservative Party in the area that industrialists would not come to the North-East because of the Labour-controlled councils in that area. In the Borough of Blythan industrial site operated by the council has already been able to attract three firms to it in a space of time in which the Government have failed to find a tenant for a Board of Trade factory in the area. The Government have an opportunity of redeeming themselves in this matter by using the advance factory in Blyth in the manner which my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East indicated.
  Another matter to which I wish to refer briefly is the Board of Trade Advisory Committee and its dealings with firms which wish to move to areas of high unemployment. I think that the criticism made of this committee and its methods are justified and that it is about time the Board of Trade took a firmer grip of the situation, instead of leaving the decisions to this more or less anonymous committee over which the Board of Trade and Parliament have no real control whatsoever.
  It has often been argued that the existence of this committee is desirable because it can be impartial on this matter. I should like to hear in the winding-up
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  speech a great deal more on the subject of the attraction of industry to areas of high unemployment and the positive location of industry by the Board of Trade in those areas.
  One or two hon. Members have mentioned alternative forms of taxation. Last year there was a great deal of kite-flying on the question of a tax on gambling, and we have been given as the reason for its non-introduction that it would be a difficult tax to collect. I make no apology for mentioning a subject that I referred to in my speech in the Budget debate last year, namely, an article whit h appeared in the Observer on the Sunday prior to the Chancellor's Budget speech. That article dealt with this problem. The article was entitled, "Round the Clock with Crockford's". It said that the profits in that club were in the region of £10,000 per week. This is not a club that is invaded by miners, engineers, shop stewards and such people. That is a club that is obviously attended by the type of people whom the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) mentioned, people who are avoiding taxation. The article also said that if one gets a little bored with Crock-ford's one can go round the corner to Aspinall's, in which it has been reported that the record loss in one night was something in the region of £100,000.
  How many miners', shipyard workers' and dockers' wages are written into the figure of £100,000? The non-producing element in our society is, of course, the element that is benefiting in every direction and in all sorts of ways. As the right hon. Member for Bromley said in 1956 when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, we have the brake put on to our economy again, and another £103 million is clawed back from the people who are really producing the wealth of the nation.
  The only difference between this and the previous Budget is that, unlike all the other Budgets in the past 12 years, we can now mark this as not merely a flamboyant, unnecessary and flimsy Budget but the last Budget that we shall have from a Conservative Government for a considerable time, before the Tories disappear into the limbo of the past and the country moves on to a new order of society.
  8.38 p.m.
  Dr. Jeremy Bray: My hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) has referred to one great disappointment in the Budget which I share, coming from a neighbouring constituency in the North-East, and that is the failure of the Budget to do anything constructive about bringing into use the under-employed resources of this country, mainly in the areas of high unemployment.
  I propose to talk about the other great disappointment, and that is the failure of the Chancellor to bring the country any nearer to the creation of a satisfactory incomes policy. The basis of an incomes policy must be a sense of reasonableness in the settlement of wages, prices and profits. We have not got this reasonableness today, thanks to the kind of action which the Government themselves took in the pay pause. The spectacle of an Attorney-General arguing in court that the word of the Treasury on a cost of living escalation clause is not binding because it is not a contract and could, therefore, be broken by a Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer, has, plainly, undermined the faith of wage-earners in any incomes policy devised by this Government.
  But we shall need more than just an atmosphere of good will and reasonableness. We shall need the regulators of profits, prices and incomes to which the Chancellor could have referred if not in actual proposals in his Budget at least in suggestions of subjects for study which he was so profuse in rejecting in his speech. We need these regulators, first, because accidents will happen. There will be times when demand is likely to exceed supply and £100 million will have to be taken out of the economy, as the Chancellor has had to do this year, or, in other circumstances, will have to be put on. Also, if there is a visible check on the development of prices, profits and incomes, people are likely to be more reasonable in the voluntary settlements which they reach during the ordinary course of negotiation and business.
  As the Federation of British Industries pointed out in its Press statement in reply to the Chancellor's proposals to the N.E.D.C., it is no use having regulators unless one has some idea what one is aiming at, some idea of the kind of income
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  distribution or wealth distribution which one is seeking. In its statement, the F.B.I. rejected any idea of a profits regulator because, of course, it wants to see higher profits, and that is fair enough.
  We on this side of the Committee would like to raise earnings as a whole, particularly the earnings of lower-paid workers and people who are living on small fixed income, often in retirement on a pension. But it is not entirely clear what the Government want to do. Do they want to raise the higher incomes more, or do they want to raise the lower incomes more? Do they want to skew the distribution of wealth so that there is an even greater concentration of wealth than there is today, or do they want a more even distribution of wealth? It is not a all clear. They have never said what their broad objectives are in the distribution of incomes.
  Naturally, therefore, the F.B.I. does not quite know what to expect from the Government, and it is extremely cagey about any question of a profits regulator. However, with the aims which we have on this side of the Committee which, I think, are quite clear—a greater evenness in the distribution of both incomes and wealth—the way in which we would use them and the kind of regulators we need is a great deal clearer.
  What regulators are appropriate? Obviously, we have to start with the most privileged sector of the community, the richest people, so we need a profits regulator, a variable Profits Tax, or the income equalisation tax to which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) referred yesterday. The Financial Secretary is not here, but perhaps the Chancellor would like to explain why there is a difficulty about the effect of a variable Profits Tax on dividends going to people with small incomes. When people with small incomes get dividends from the few shares which they may own, they have to claim back from the Inland Revenue the Income Tax which has been paid by the companies from which they draw their dividends. Would it not be very easy and cause no administrative complications to arrange for them to draw back at the same time any increase in the

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  Profits Tax levied in addition to the standard rate of Income Tax? Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer deal with this point now, or perhaps later? Since he does not do so, this seems to be no more than an excuse for the rejection, perhaps only for the time being, of a variable Profits Tax. But as the F.B.I. points out, profits are only one-eighth of national income and we cannot possibly construct an incomes policy solely on the regulation of profits. We must look at the rest.
  Of the £25,000 million national income, the £3,000 million of rents, dividends and interests can be dealt with. There is another £2,000 million in National Insurance benefits and other payments from the State which must on no account be touched or involved in an incomes regulator applied by the Government. It would be utterly unjust to impose on the poorest sections of the community, who do not exercise any bargaining power at all, the brunt of an incomes policy.
  Of the remaining £20,000 million, only £5,000 million goes to people earning less than £16 a week. Only a quarter of the earned income goes to people getting less than the average income and three-quarters goes to people getting more. This is a quite surprising fact, but hon. Members can check it for themselves. Thirteen million out of the 22 million people paying tax get less than £16 a week. It is, therefore, the remaining £15,000 million of earned income which must bear the brunt of that part of an incomes policy which must inevitably fall on earned income as distinct from profits. The three-fifths of national income which goes to the higher wage earners must grow, but it must not grow faster than the production out of which it is paid and on which it is spent.
  How, then, is this to be done? How is the growth of the higher earned incomes to be kept in a reasonable balance? Indirect taxes act quickly. This is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to push up the tax on tobacco and alcohol. They are an unsatisfactory regulator because they raise the cost of living directly. It is interesting that when Mr. Heathcoat Amory wanted to give concessions which would have the biggest possible effect on the cost of living he knocked 2d. off a pint
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  of beer. The Chancellor has put 1d. on a pint of beer, thus putting the greatest possible pressure on the cost of living, by the changes which he has made in indirect taxation.
  In the end, increases of indirect taxation also increase costs, by forcing up the wages spiral. We should, therefore, look elsewhere. The enormous benefit which we would gain from a sound incomes policy should encourage us to think in a radical way about the reorganisation of the taxation system, a reorganisation which could well be as fundamental as that at the time of the introduction of P.A.Y.E. If total incomes rise too much, we must find a way of reducing them by the appropriate very small amount.
  Variable employees' contributions to National Insurance have been suggested as one method, but this idea seems to be unacceptable because, inevitably, it will fall most heavily on the lowest-paid worker. Even if it is on the variable element of National Insurance, and this would be administratively complicated, it would still work only on the lower incomes up to the £25 or £40 a week limit, whichever is set under the super-annuation scheme. Variable employers' contributions would have no immediate effect on incomes. The only immediate effect they have is to raise costs and force up the inflationary spiral, which is the last thing one wants to do.
  One seems to be driven back on a method of finding a quick adjustment in the higher rates of Income Tax, leaving incomes less than £16 a week or thereabouts entirely unaffected, by tackling the £15,000 million of higher earned income.
  The Chancellor's £100 million nip on the economy would be met by an average increase of 4s. a week in the tax payments of those in the higher earning income bracket. It is not a great deal. At present, it is spread over the pensioners, the lower incomes as well as the higher ones in a most unjust way. The immediate reaction to this is that it is administratively complicated to have short-term variations in the P.A.Y.E. rate. To suggest this is to be entirely behind the times. One could produce a P.A.Y.E. table in 10 minutes on a computer. One could publish the month's P.A.Y.E. table in the news-

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  papers and thereby get it out to all tax offices and employers overnight. There would not be any administrative difficulties in having a highly flexible, even month by month, variation if necessary in the P.A.Y.E. rates for higher incomes.
  This would, of course, affect only the monthly and weekly assessments, but annual assessments would in any case pay the same total rate in the end as the weekly and monthly ones. Their effect on the economy is cushioned by the savings of the higher income groups. I agree that one would not achieve much by short-term arrangements at the highest rates of tax. It is the medium rates of P.A.Y.E. which are important in this connection.
  This seems to me the only logical way of arriving at an incomes policy. But if incomes are forced up, the costs of industry generally are forced up and there must be found some way of reducing these in turn. In this connection, we are grateful for the work done by the Richardson Committee. It produced an interesting Report on the value-added tax. It is a pity that its terms of reference did not enable it to consider the usefulness of such a tax not only in relation to exports, or as a replacement for Profits Tax or Purchase Tax, but its usefulness as an instrument in incomes policy. The Richardson Committee, reporting the opinion of all its witnesses, stated that
  "Liability to a value-added tax would be regarded as a charge or tax and businesses would aim to recover this cost in prices."
  That was a very good reason for not having a value-added tax from many points of view.
  Taking the converse of that argument, presumably a reduction in a value-added tax, if it would not reduce prices, would at least offset increases in other costs and, if nothing else, would keep prices stable. If it did not, and if there was a reduction in a value-added tax and manufacturers took advantage of it to make increased profits, then an incomes policy would take off that increase in the variable Profits Tax.
  This would, therefore, seem to be not only an effective but quick acting method of influencing prices right across the whole of industry. This shows that three types of regulators are needed;
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  on profits by a variable Profits Tax, on higher incomes by a new approach to P.A.Y.E., and some kind of movement towards having a direct influence on prices. We need this kind of thinking in the Treasury. Obviously one cannot, from the figures available outside Government circles, say whether or not these are completely sensible proposals. For this reason, I would like the Chancellor to have said whether thought is being directed to proposals of this kind.
  Whether the Chancellor was inhibited by tactical reasons in relation to an incomes policy, not having the right atmosphere in which to put such proposals, or whether he had run out of ideas, it is because the country has got the feeling that he has reached the end of the road that his Budget proposals have been met with no more enthusiasm in the country as a whole than they have been on this side of the Committee.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: This is the end of the third day of a debate, which has had, I understand, two subjects; one is the Budget and the other is the economic situation. Perhaps the best comment on the Budget is that so much of the debate has been, in different directions, about the economic situation and so comparatively little about the Budget.
  However, I still have something to say about the Budget. It seems to me to be the child of two apprehensions. Undoubtedly, the Prime Minister was most apprehensive of an early election. The Chancellor, no doubt, was apprehensive of an autumn crisis. I can imagine the dialogue between them, in which these two apprehensions were worded and it was decided that, after all, the greater political uncertainty must be dealt with and any apprehensions about an autumn crisis would have to fall into line—coupled, I suppose, with a warning to the Chancellor that, whatever else he did, he must not disturb the companies too much because they had been such valuable supporters of the Conservative cause and were still expected to contribute a good deal to the chunk of propaganda in the months intervening before the General Election. And this, I suppose, was how this simple Budget came to birth.

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  We were invited today by the Financial Secretary to consider this as the question we have been discussing through the last few days—and I thought the form of the question was singularly revealing: whether or not a proper balance has been achieved having regard to the economic situation affecting this country. That is a very remarkable view, I should have thought, of a debate which was supposed to be about our economic situation. It is certainly not confined to the question of whether or not a proper balance has been achieved. There is a good deal more than that to be said.
  Now, the Chancellor and sundry other Government speakers suggested it was up to us to tell him what the proper balance was, that we were to decide whether the £100 million or so he intended to raise by indirect taxation was the right amount. This, again, strikes me as a most remarkable view of the functions of the Opposition. I should have thought that, prima facie, it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make up his own mind and to come here and say what he thought was right; and if we differed from him we could say so. We did say so. We pointed out to him that he was taking chances, but he said, "Oh, that is all right. That is exactly what I said myself." And that is the criticism.
  Mr. Maudling: Do the Opposition, therefore, wish me to raise more taxation?
  Mr. Mitchison: That is not a question for us. That is a question for the Chancellor. We are not here to tell the Chancellor how much taxes he ought to raise. We are entitled to stand here, as we do, and say to him," You know perfectly well you are taking a risk." That is exactly what he is doing. There is really no dispute about this. I am surprised by this insistence on it.
  It seems to me to show that the Chancellor and his supporters have got very little else to say. We have not heard a word in defence—so far as I know—of the amount which he has chosen. His only way of defending it is to get up and say, "Well, what do you suggest?"
  He might tell us whether he thinks that he is right or wrong, and if so why.
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  He has never said a word about this, as far as I am aware. It is a hit-and-miss judgment—he tells us that much. Whether it was derived by intuition or whether it happened to him as to one of his predecessors in office—it was Mr. Amory who he was the Chancellor—that a little pigeon came into the room and told him what to do, I do not know, It may have been a skylark, pigeon, homing pigeon, perhaps, that came in and told him what amount he ought to hedge off. It is reducing the responsibility of the Chancellor to a farce if all he can say in defence of the figure at which he has arrived is, "Well, what would you do?". He has not resigned yet; no doubt he ought to—there is still time.
  I turn shortly to the next question about the Budget—there are very few questions in this Budget—and that is that if we are to raise that amount, what is the right way of raising it? We had the Chancellor's explanation. The Chancellor said in effect, "There is only one way, because I cannot do it quickly enough in any other". I very much doubt that proposition. It depends, of course, on the view that one takes of the urgency of the crisis; but if that was his real reason for it, it seems to me to indicate that this Budget had been prepared for a different occasion and for a much earlier election than we are to have.
  I rather think that the Chancellor and the Treasury have not done their homework on this occasion. They ought to have had two Budgets—one in case the Prime Minister decided on a June election and another in case he decided on an October election. The Chancellor is charming but a trifle indolent, and I think he thought that if he got away with the one that would do in any circumstances. And so we got the June Budget and, presumably, an October election.
  One has to take what one can from a lame duck Government and be grateful. Lame duck; may not be able to walk, but they ought to be able to quack a bit. There was not even a quack in support of all this, except for a stray sentence to say, "I have chosen this as the quickest way of doing things".
  I am glad that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampon, South-West (Mr.

  707
  Powell) has reappeared, because I feel that we owe it to him and to one or two other hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that this rather unpromising subject of the Budget has at times become quite interesting. I was fascinated by the right hon. Gentleman. Allow me to tell him of whom he reminded me. He came, I thought, out of his barrel, a barrel on the top benches, carrying a light even in open day to look for an honest citizen, like Diogenes. He found not one but a mass of honest citizens, and he derived from this spectacle the remarkable conclusion that if one only left them alone they could never do wrong either singly or collectively, but that one had no power whatever to ensure that they would ever do right. I hope that I am not misrepresenting him. That, at any rate, was the inference I drew from what I thought was a remarkable piece of oratory, and I mean that quite seriously.
  Then we had a wonderful knockabout turn from the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) I hope he will not mind my thanking him for it. What I liked about it was the purity of the moral distinction he drew between the dinner that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition had with the directors of I.C.I. in Middlesbrough—
  Sir C. Osborne: A luncheon.
  Mr. Mitchison: —and his own vodka potations in the Kremlin. The former were all wrong and the latter were all right. On morals, we have never had a more reliable guide than the hon. Member for Louth, and it was interesting to hear his practical application of his personal and political views.
  I listened with very great interest and—I hardly know the right words—a little bit of a thrill to what my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Rhodes) had to say. He seems to me to import into these discussions a human element and a vigour of thinking not to be found everywhere. So to all these three hon. Gentlemen, in very different ways, and perhaps for slightly different reasons, I express my personal gratitude for brightening up what might otherwise have been a slightly tedious debate.
  I turn for a moment to what the Chancellor might have thought of. This is
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  not just a question of the immediacy of the remedy. It is perfectly possible—I am sure the Chancellor would at once admit it—to devise a remedy for direct taxation which could have a sufficiently rapid effect. There can be no doubt about that. The case that was put to the Chancellor remains unanswered, even by the Secretary for Industry and Trade. The social effect of what the Chancellor is doing by this Budget, raising £100 million, is that he will raise it from the very people from whom he ought not to try to raise it—that is to say, those who are least able to pay tax, notably people on retirement pensions who like a glass of beer. If one says it is a good thing to tax tobacco, one sees the point, but experience shows that tax on tobacco has no other effect in limiting consumption than a purely temporary one.
  Mr. Maudling: Then why not vote against it?
  Mr. Mitchison: I will deal with that in a moment, but, with respect to the Chancellor, I should have thought that was a rather foolish question.
  This is £100 million raised in a form as near a poll tax as one can get in indirect taxation. It will hit and hurt most those who can least afford to bear the burden. That is the very worst possible way of raising taxation. The alternative seems to come—I come to the Chancellor's point—to look at company taxation, and to do it in the light of the Richardson Report, which pointed out quite clearly in paragraph 154 that the effective burden of direct taxation on companies has fallen in this country in recent years despite the fact that overall the nominal rates of tax have increased. The Report points out that this is due to improvements in the capital allowances and primarily to the introduction of the investment allowance I shall return to that in a minute, because I think it is a very important indication of what might have been done. That was the obvious alternative, and it was clearly put.
  The Chancellor said, "Why did you not vote against it?" Does he really attach any importance to this? These are Ways and Means Resolutions, and the Opposition have never held that we were bound not to vote against them when the effective legislation was introduced because we had not voted against

  709
  them at an earlier stage. Surely, if one wants to give one's reasons for doing a thing, if one wants to have the possibility of making amendments and the like, the right and usual way is to vote against these matters during the Committee stage and not on Ways and Means Resolutions.
  Mr. Maudling: Do the Opposition, therefore, intend to vote against the increased taxes on tobacco and alcohol?
  Mr. Mitchison: The Chancellor can wait and see about that. This is quite extraordinary. The Chancellor is a most engaging character—we would all admit that—but he might be his age over this. It is absurd to have nothing better to say about one's proposals in a Budget than that the Opposition have not voted against Ways and Means Resolutions. We like a little serious argument and a few real reasons against and in favour of these things, and if the Chancellor is not going to provide that, what is the use of this rather childish substitute, which is like playing a game of political hide-and-seek or blind man's buff?
  I turn from that to say a few words about what has really engaged everyone's attention both in relation to the Budget and to everything else. Our complaint about the Budget is not only that we have been given no reasons for it and that we think that it has been done in the wrong way. It is more serious than that. This is not a debate, or should not be a debate, just about the sufficiency or character of the means employed. Ever since the time of Sir Stafford Cripps, it has been a debate about the general economic position of the country—and, in all conscience, there is plenty of reason for that.
  We are now told that everything is fine, that another election is coming and—once again the old cry—that we have never had it so good. We are being told all this in face of large areas of unemployment and of an economy obviously in danger of overheating—hence the £100 million extra on taxation—and in face of the fact that a very large group of people, the very people who are to be hit by the increases in the prices of drink and tobacco, still are left badly behind in the rat race that appears to represent the Tory economy.
  Sir C. Osborne: Whilst I agree that there are certain pockets in the country which have not done so well as others, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he would not agree that even in Corby, in his constituency, the people have never had it so good?
  Mr. Mitchison: I will answer that fully. First, I am not a Privy Councillor. Secondly, I entirely agree about local employment. But what the hon. Gentleman forgets is, first, that a large group of people, irrespective of where they live, have been left behind in the rat race. The most obvious among them are the retirement pensioners who have to seek National Assistance. One out of every four or five of there must do so because, under the Tory Administration, National Insurance benefits are still quite insufficient. I have quoted them as an example I can easily give others.
  Secondly the present recovery is hurried and heated. A short time ago, people in Corby were suffering from what many of them would regard as the results of a return to private enterprise. Certainly they connected it with a return to private enterprise. They were not working to anything like full capacity and there was a distinct pinch on the pay packet, while some lost their jobs. The result has been that, by and large in recent years, they at least have deeply regretted the passing of the time when the industry was nationalised. It so happens that they were doing very much better then than they are now. I hope that answers the questions of the hon. Member for Louth.
  I turn from that to look again at the position in the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) made 15 or 16 suggestions and there are a number of others in the N.E.D.C. Report to which he referred. No doubt suggestions have also been made on many other occasions and by many other people to deal with some of these matters and with something that lies behind them and which is in itself far more important.
  The fact is that under the Tory Government in these last few years we have slipped badly behind other countries

  711
  one can take any test one likes—the production of the steel industry, for example. Steel production in this country has slipped behind that of others. Our industry's conversion to new methods has been very dilatory. The prices have been unsatisfactory. The rings in the industry are now under discussion in court and I can, therefore, say no more about them than that.
  The Whole history of the industry is a history of lack of enterprise and lack of technical advance This is the point that N. E. D. C. brought out so clearly in its report—the way in which we in this country have been slow not to make the basic discoveries but, once they have been, made to apply and use them. The result has been shown over the years in this slipping back by comparison with other countries.
  That is what is wrong at the moment, and one would have hoped that even in an election year one would have had a chancellor of the Exchequer who would have considered whether Diogenes was entirely right and it was impossible to do anything about this kind of thing by the Budget or budgetry measures, or whether, as he and other chancellors have thought on other occasions, it was possible to do something There are obvious kinds of things.
  Mr. Maudling: What?
  Mr. Mitchison: I shall not suggest the measures to the chancellor—that is his job, not mine—but there are obvious kinds to do.
  Mr. Callaghan: He is not in opposition yet.
  Mr. Mitchison: He is jumping the gap too quickly.
  Let me instance two. We have had legislation to use fiscal means to make distinctions between one part of the country and another, and the same thing has happened in the Local Employment Acts. That ought at least to have been considered on this occasion, having regard to the position in Scotland, on the North-East Coast and in some other parts of the country, notably Northern Ireland. The conclusion might well have been that what was wanted was not so much new legislation as tight enforcement of the existing legislation
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  in favour of those distressed areas. That might have been the conclusion and, if so, it was a conclusion appropriate for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and appropriate in a debate on the economic situation. We did not hear a word about it.
  We did not hear a word from the Chancellor about the effect of the special allowances in favour of scientific expenditure, research expenditure generally. We got nothing about that subject and yet we were discussing, or were supposed to be, the country's economic situation. He might at least have told us whether he thought that they were entirely satisfactory, or whether, as I believe to be the case, they were insufficient and that more needed to be done, and that the proof of their insufficiency was the way we had slipped back in this respect, as instanced by the first report of N.E.D.C.
  At the end of three days it is a little unsatisfactory that so many hon. Members opposite have contented themselves, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer was childish enough to do just now, with asking why we did not vote against the Ways and Means Resolution, or with simply asking, "What would you do? Supposing you were Chancellor of the Exchequer, what is the limit? What taxes would you put on?" We expect even the lamest of lame ducks to quack a little in its own defence. It is not necessarily reduced to complete silence by its own complete inefficiency. For those reasons we shall wait with interest and fascination to hear whether the Economic Secretary is to give us something a little more positive than we have yet had from any member of the Government.
  Before I sit down, may I deal with the Secretary of State? It was an engaging, lively performance, a mass of irrelevancies, omissions and half-truths, the kind of argument that must have annoyed de Gaulle so much. I have never understood why the French got so testy about the Common Market, but when I listened to the Secretary of State I said to myself, "There is the answer" I hope that the Economic Secretary will do better. He has an enormous gap to fill. Let us hear him fill it.
  9.20 p.m.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Maurice Macmillan): Despite the directive that I have just been given, it is clear what my real task is tonight in winding up on this third day of the debate. It is to act as a sort of scavenger for this debate, to clear up some of the points which have been made and tie up the loose ends which have been left lying around before we resume our debate on the major issues on Monday.
  For that reason I hope that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) will forgive me if I do not reply to his points in detail, because they are some of the points which will have to be dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I thought that some of the points made by the hon. Gentleman were suitable to be dealt with by the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). I am referring to the more technical aspects of taxation to which he referred, with which I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman agreed or not.
  Mr. Houghton: Is the hon. Gentleman expecting me to speak from the benches opposite?
  Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman's views might qualify him to do so on some matters.
  I do not think that there is a great deal of the main argument left to be dealt with. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), after an agreeable opening essay in fiction, went on to say that there was very little defence of the amount which the Chancellor was taking out of the economy. That does not surprise me very much, because there has been very little attack on it, and certainly the demolition work carried out yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade on the somewhat jerry-built structure of the Opposition's case was a complete job, and earlier this afternoon my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary knocked down the two fragments that remained.
  The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) and the hon. and learned Member for Kettering made some attempt at restoration. They were not very impressive, and I do not think that
  714
  very much has yet been said to indicate that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is wrong. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) said that this was an "if" Budget—if exports were increased, if imports were decreased, if world trader was increased, if Government spending was restrained, and so on, certain things would happen.
  The Committee will appreciate that practically every economic judgment is an "if" judgment of that sort, simply because it is a matter not of fact, but of judgment. Despite the strictures from the benches opposite in 1963, and despite the criticisms of all the economic pundits, my right hon. Friend was proved right last time, and I have no doubt that he will be proved right again this time.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) sad that he thought that the Budget went to the limit of prudence. On economic matters, my right hon. Friend is not a speaker or a thinker who is inclined to be anything but prudent, and I think that that in itself is an answer to the strictures of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has been imprudent and has not gone far enough in what he is taking out of the economy.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has been accused of going back to Gladstone. It seemed to me that the right hon. Member for Battersea, North went back at least as far as the late Sir Stafford Cripps. The right hon. Gentleman was a little disingenuous in the way in which he argued from the particular to the general, and also in the way in which he quoted percentage increases in various parts of our economy without giving any indication of the relative size of the elements to which he was referring.
  The right hon. Gentleman took the same sort of line in contrasting—as he put it—the views of the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Agriculture on the question of restraining manufactured goods. The difference in attitude arises because the objects and functions of the policies are different. My right hon. Friend make it quite clear that as a trading nation we are, naturally, constrained to do everything we can to increase

  715
  and not decrease the volume of world trade. The recent experiences in Italy and, to some extent, France, have shown the view to be widely shared there. A great deal of trouble was taken by international authorities to ensure that their economic problems were resolved in a way which did not lead to a diminution of trade.
  The Ministry of Agriculture is concerned to protect the agriculture industry rather than to deal with the balance of payments situation.
  Mr. Jay: That is a surprising statement. Do we understand that the Government have no collective view on this matter? Are the Government opposed to import control, as such, or are they not?
  Mr. Macmillan: I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman disagreed violently with the Leader of the Opposition in some of the remarks that he made about agriculture when the Common Market negotiations were proceeding, but it is quite consistent for the Government to take a view about agriculture as a whole, which does not require the same techniques to be applied as have to be applied in the case of industry as a whole. We do not use the same methods for different objectives, and there is not any inconsistency in using different techniques in different spheres of operation.
  The sneer of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East at the concessions which allow United Kingdom airlines to carry more cigarettes, alcohol, and so on, for sale, were rather cheap. He implied that this concession was made to benefit the richer supporters of the Tory Party rather than to allow British airlines to compete more successfully with their foreign competitors in providing what might be called fringe benefits.
  The right hon. Member for Battersea, North quoted as a sort of magic figure the £65 million difference in respect of our balance of trade. Again, this was slightly disingenuous, because that is the c.i.f. figure, which includes elements which are earnings and not charges. It is more accurate to take the figures for the first quarter, in respect of which the balance of trade is minus £35 million, and not £65 million, on a monthly basis.
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  The second point which the right hon. Gentleman ignored in relation to this extremely serious part of our economic problems was the element of the increased outflow on long-term capital account and its relatively large size at the moment, together with its causes and results. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not take the argument much further, especially as one of my right hon. Friends will be talking about it later.
  Mr. Jay: We have got lots of time. The hon. Gentleman says that I did not mention the outflow of long-term capital, which is now considerable. Surely that makes the problem more, and not less, difficult and disturbing.
  Mr. Macmillan: Yes, but to the extent that capital is also part of the problem it reduces the likely effect—of what the right hon. Gentleman regards as a sort of conjuring trick—of resolving the problem by controlling the importation of consumer goods. The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Ginsburg) asked for a reply to a point connected with this which seemed to concern him and other hon. Members opposite. It related to the abolition of the so-called property dollar.
  Again, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned that this would make it easier for people to buy villas—on, I think, the Riviera. This is an exchange control operation which comprises several parts. There was a special allowance of foreign exchange which could be obtained for buying property abroad for health reasons. This has been abolished, and that will save about £2 million a year. On the other hand, the repatriation of the proceeds of the sale of direct investments through the switch market will mean a loss of approximately £2 million to the official exchange, which roughly offsets the amount gained by the abolition of the requirement for official exchange for health property.
  As a consequence, former purchases of property overseas is now allowed through the switch dollar market in the same way as other investments which do not qualify—
  Mr. Bence: Will the hon. Gentleman please explain what is the switch dollar market?
  Mr. Macmillan: The switch dollar market is a method of obtaining dollars for overseas investment for which the qualifications do not allow official dollars. It is a method of buying dollars at no loss to our official exchange, dollars which are already, as it were, overseas. Because the demand for them is greater than the supply, it involves whoever wishes to buy dollars in this way in paying a premium which I think is something between 10 per cent. and 11 per cent. This facility is available to those wishing to buy property. It cannot by definition in any way increase the burden on our official exchange.
  Mr. Callaghan: It enables more villas to be bought.
  Mr. Macmillan: I do not see that that remark makes the slightest difference. It does not affect the pressure on our official exchange.
  Mr. Callaghan: If the two markets are merged, it clearly means—although the total call on our resources is no greater—that we shall have less direct investment which could be profitable and more purchases of overseas villas. The purchase of overseas villas is not likely to yield additional income to this country.
  Mr. Macmillan: That seems to me a very dogmatic statement, made on rather slender evidence. Since it is very expensive to buy these dollars, I should have thought that, normally, it would not be worth while doing so, except for a purpose which yielded a return.
  I wish now to turn to some of the arguments which have been advanced about the burden of taxation. I do not wish to repeat the figures or the arguments deployed so clearly earlier this afternoon by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. But I would remind the Committee that they showed that the proportion of revenue raised by indirect taxation is no higher now than it has been, in fact it is marginally lower, and that the level has been fairly consistent over quite a period of time.
  In the various arguments used about the profits tax there was a tendency to make use of what Sir Alan Herbert used to refer to as "witch" words—words not clearly defined, and which, although constantly repeated to convince hon.
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  Gentlemen opposite, did not seem to have any precise meaning.
  Various hon. Members have admitted that the advantage of increasing indirect taxation is the speed of its action on the economy. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering appeared to see in this, evidence of a very urgent crisis. I prefer to see in it evidence of the foresight and wisdom of my right hon. Friend in taking action before a crisis can descend upon us. There is an old saying, which appears to have escaped the hon. Member, learned though he may be, that "A stitch in time saves nine".
  While we are on the subject of indirect taxation, I should like to tell the Committee about one other change which has not so far been mentioned in Purchase Tax and Excise duty. It refers to a beverage—which, I think, will be more familiar to the hon. Member for Sowerby than to some other members of the Committee—known as "black beer". To, those hon. Members who do not know about it, I must explain that "black beer" is not beer in the ordinary sense of the word. It is a syrup brewed from malt and sugar, mainly in the north of England, either for medicinal purposes or as a basis for other drinks. I think one such other drink is familiarly known as "Sheffield stout".
  Mr. Houghton: I am grateful to the hon. Gentle man, but, since I have many temperance constituents, to avoid any misunderstanding I ought to say that I do not drink black beer and that I have never had any black beer, but it happens to be a Yorkshire brew. I am content to have my position in this matter made clear to my constituents.
  Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Member is betraying over this matter the same unnecessary anxiety which he and his hon. Friends are betraying over the argument on the Budget. Black beer is, in fact, not an intoxicating drink. The duty was imposed on it to protect the beer revenue against the danger of it being used as a basis to make ale, rather than being taken as a drink itself.
  The pattern of the industry has altered to such an extent that that danger no longer exists. It is quite impossible for black beer to become a substitute for beer. There is no justification

  719
  for the continuance of the duty, so it is proposed that it should be abolished and that black beer should come under the category of soft drinks for Purchase Tax purposes.
  Mr. Bence: We teetotallers escape the burden on beer.
  Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Member is being very captious. He complains that drinkers of beer bear the burden and then that teetotallers have to share it.
  The hon. and learned Member for Kettering said that the Budget imposes taxes on the consumer rather than on profits and dividends. Another way of looking at it is that it is a tax on spending rather than on earning or saving. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) made a valid point when he contradicted the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), who complained that the economy was not in better shape, by pointing out that people are a great deal better off and the improvement has been measurable and substantial.
  I wish, next, to refer to a point my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) made about the increased provision for Exchequer loans to local authorities this year.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West doubted whether it was logical to disregard the increase of £165 million in net lending to local authorities when considering the rise in the net borrowing requirement between last year and this. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen, on the other hand, was disappointed that the lending to local authorities had not been reflected in lower rate demands. I do not think that there can be any real dispute in economic terms about the "transfer" nature of the increased provision for loans to local authorities.
  The new arrangements, introduced this month, will enable local authorities to borrow more from the Public Works Loan Board. Their need to borrow from the market will, therefore, be correspondingly less. Since new borrowing
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  arrangements are not necessarily accompanied by a pro rata increase in capital expenditure, we are not adding to the calls on resources by the change in the borrowing arrangements but simply providing a greater proportion of a given total via the Exchequer.
  Mr. Houghton: Does not that mean that there may be an additional charge on the Exchequer and, indeed, on internal finance? As I understood it, a number of local authorities have taken advantage of short-term loans from overseas and it was partly to correct the danger of that tendency to our balance of payments that the Public Works Loans Act was introduced.
  Mr. Macmillan: I believe that I am still right in thinking that the economic effect is not so great. It is to the fiscal effect that the hon. Member refers rather than to the purely economic. He was anxious to anticipate me, as always, and I was about to come to that point because my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen referred to the burden on the rates. In this, of course, he was contradicted by the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), who said that it is a mistake to talk about the burden of rates—they are a great bargain. I am bound to admit, of course, that the right hon. Gentleman does not live in Westminster.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen went on to say that
  "The public was led to believe that when industrial hereditaments were to be partially included in the rating system the burden on the individual householder would be relieved. But that is no one's experience as far as I can see, even in the areas which have been least hard hit."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1964; Vol. 493, c. 509.]
  It has happened in many places, among others in the County Borough of Halifax.
  The point I make is twofold. The first is that any attempt to reduce the charge of interest rates on local authorities by having a lower rate of interest is merely a transfer of the burden of the cost of borrowing from the ratepayer to the taxpayer. There is no way round that, though the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire seemed disposed to doubt it. But whatever views the Committee might have on the desirability of taking such action,

  721
  there is no doubt that it is merely a transfer of burden from one section of the community to another.
  When considering this point it is worth remembering that the general burden of rates is now a smaller proportion of the gross national product than it was before the war, that less than one-half of local authority spending is met from the rates, and that the rates which householders pay provide less than a quarter of local authority spending. It is worth remembering, also, that the average rate burden is much the same in real terms as it was before the war. I stress the word "average". The point to be recognised is that this burden is very uneven. It is by no means certain that in every case the highest burdens of rates are on the richest areas. It is for this reason that the Government have taken steps for the interim relief of hardship, a problem on which the Allen Committee is also working to provide a more permanent solution to the longer term problem, covering also the human aspects.
  Mr. Mitchison: No doubt, rates are a hot potato—we all agree on that—but I think that we can agree that there is room for a careful review of the relations between central and local finance. Would the hon. Gentleman also agree that if, after a review, we come to the conclusion that there is a case for transferring some of the burden from the ratepayer to the taxpayer, then the method of a specially low interest rate for local authorities, at any rate, falls to be considered as one of the practical possibilities?
  Mr. Macmillan: The first thing to do is to consider the extent and the amount of the problem and to get some idea of the facts. Any Government who committed themselves to using one method of solving a problem before they discovered what the facts of the problem were would be very foolish indeed. We all know what the problem is, but we do not know all the details and there is a strong case for making a careful study. Turning to Customs and Excise matters, and particularly to the consideration of changes made in implementing the E.F.T.A. agreement—
  Mr. Callaghan: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is there
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  any chance of getting a reply to the question that I asked yesterday about the yield from the speculative gains tax? We were told that no estimate could be made. Legislation has been on the Statute Book for two years. I ask the question with 13 minutes to go, and I hope that the resources of the Treasury can provide an answer by ten o'clock.
  Mr. Macmillan: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said.
  Mr. Callaghan: I apologise for interrupting again. I realise that the Chancellor has decided that we cannot be told, but why is the information not available? The tax yield for the year ended 5th April has been published. This is one of the key features in the Government's policy in relation to pay and incomes. We were told that this was to be the offset to doing injustice to the nurses and the teachers. Now, two years after the legislation has been introduced, the Government cannot tell us whether there was any yield. The Chancellor must not mind if we draw the conclusion that the yield was derisory and that he is ashamed to tell us.
  Mr. Macmillan: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will really expect me to answer those somewhat naive remarks.
  Mr. Bence: We do.
  Mr. Macmillan: My right hon. Friend has already answered this question completely and in a perfectly straightforward manner. There is no reason, in the face of taunts of that nature, for me to be induced to add to what has already been said. My right hon. Friend explained in his Budget speech that certain of the proposals made in this year's Budget are in fulfuilment of our obligation under the E.F.T.A. Agreement. The Convention requires us to eliminate by 1st January, 1965, any effective protective element in Customs duties on goods imported from E.F.T.A. countries. That is the reason why we have had to remove the protective element in the Excise duty on hydrocarbon oils produced at home and to make the adjustment by removing the residual protective element in the duties on tobacco, beer, and spirits.
  There is, however, the adjustment which has had to be made in order to

  723
  avoid bringing about a reverse preference on Commonwealth imports. I do not think that I need detain the Committee longer on this technical matter. It is hardly a point of dispute. It is in fulfilment of our treaty obligations, and, as regards hydrocarbon oils, the industry has until 1st January, 1965, to make the necessary adjustments.
  While I am on the subject of Customs and Excise, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the Department on the way in which it succeeds in keeping pace with some of the changes which are required by both treaty obligations and technical advances. It does not take a great deal of imagination to understand that, in the construction industry, the heating of houses, and so on, the technical advances associated with prefabrication impose considerable difficulties of definition on the Department, which is always charged with the responsibility of balancing encouragement of efficient techniques with the need for definition and avoidance of erosion of the tax. I congratulate all concerned on the way in which they succeed in doing this.
  There has been a similar attempt to modernise—if that is the phrase in the jargon which is used now—the National Savings Movement. In his Budget, the Chancellor announced various changes to help the movement. I join with him in his congratulations to Mr. Archer and, even more in my particular position, to Lord Mackintosh for his great work for the movement.
  We are now proposing to make to the Trustee Savings Banks payments for management expenses of the Government stock department. I wish, also, to congratulate them on the passing of the Act enabling them to offer cheque facilities, and I hope that they will make other adaptations of their methods to meet the needs of their depositors in the future.
  The whole question of savings has now become one of making sure that the methods and techniques available meet the changing needs of the general public. I apologise to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) for being absent during his speech. I think that the hon. Gentleman identified one of the difficulties of contractual
  724
  savings, that is, switching between savings rather than attracting new savings. I think that this danger can be met to some extent at least by devising savings media which are accurately suited to the needs of the public investing in them.
  This, of course, underlies the Chancellor's announcement of an investigation into the possibilities of offering facilities for contractual savings through the National Savings Movement. Clearly, any new form of ordinary savings certificate must depend to some extent on the outcome of that study, so that the whole field of demand is covered by the various forms of saving available.
  There is one other point about switching. Despite the very high rate of savings now, there is a surprising amount of what one might call loose cash almost lying about. The other day, I went to a building society conference at which the figures revealed were really remarkable. In 1937, there were about £9 6s. in savings in a sock, so to speak, per head of population. This figure had risen by the present date to over £40 per head—man, woman and child—or about £120 per household. This is a very cheap form of Government borrowing, but it is a form which, the Committee will agree, is rather wasteful in real terms.
  I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) that his ideas will not be excluded from consideration in the Treasury as long as I am there. I viewed his remarks with a certain degree of nostalgia, but I must point out to him that my right hon. Friend's announcement concerned itself with a survey of the possibility of contractual savings within the National Savings Movement. My hon. Friend put one of the great difficulties which stand in the way of his ideas. He said that one could not draw out on the form of savings which he was proposing over a long period of years, but some provision must be made for premature withdrawal, and that is where the real difficulty arises.
  The pattern of savings over the years is reassuring for the future. One of the reasons why I look forward with such confidence to the outcome of the Chancellor's Budget in the next few years is that I think that there is every

  725
  hope and possibility of maintaining the marginal propensity to save which has been going up steadily since 1954. Although it is not a factor which can by itself obviate the need for fiscal and other action, it is one which is, as right hon. Members opposite have admitted, of some importance.
  The charges which have been levelled at my right hon. Friend have, I think, been refuted completely, not by me—because I have not tried to refute them—but by my right hon. Friend himself and by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. Such claims and contradictions by right hon. and hon. Members opposite which as yet have not been exposed are awaiting the onslaught of my right hon. Friends on Monday next. As has been repeated constantly, the Opposition have failed to produce any coherent alternative. They have not tried to show that the amount which the Chancellor is taking out of the economy is wrong. Although they have tried their best, I do not think that they have established the case that the incidence of taxation has that degree of unfairness that they claim. They have spun out the thread of their verbosity finer than the staple of their argument. But, despite the Job's comforters of the expert Press, events prove that my right hon. Friend was right last year, and I have equal confidence that he will be able to make the same claim from this Box next year.
  Mr. Bence: If the hon. Gentleman cannot give us the figures of yield from the capital gains tax for the last two years, could he by Monday ascertain for us the cost of the efforts which have been made to collect it?
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Finlay]—put and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  DESERTED WIVES (MAINTENANCE PAYMENTS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Finlay.]
  10.0 p.m.
  Mr. Fergus Montgomery: I am grateful to have the opportunity tonight to raise the question of maintenance for deserted wives. When I questioned my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary for the Home Department some weeks ago on this subject I did not realise that, as a result of my questioning, I would receive, in fact be inundated by, letters from all ever the country from deserted wives. The more I read them the more I realised now right I was to have raised the matter.
  Naturally, I have received a certain amount of criticism. One gentleman wrote a letter, which appeared in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle last week, saying than he had been trying to pluck up enough courage for the last 12 months to leave his wife and children. I need hardly say that he did not sign the letter but used a non de plume. Had his wife discovered his identity he might have got his separate on more quickly than he might have hoped. Some of the remarks he made about to the ladies of Newcastle were so disparaging that had his identity been known I would have feared for his safety. However, this is only in passing.
  The purpose of my raising this matter tonight is to try to point out the suffering caused to many children of deserted wives. The majority of people in Britain today have a good standard of living. It is regrettable that there is a persistent minority who are still allowed to exist as best they can. I freely admit that all marriages are not perfect. Some are more or less doomed to failure from the outset, and, regrettably, I do not think that we may ever find a way to prevent some husbands leaving their wives and some wives leaving their husbands.
  At the same time, we must make it perfectly clear that, whoever is responsible for the failure of a marriage, responsibility must be had for the children of the marriage. It is unfortunately true that many deserted wives have to fend for themselves and their children as best

  727
  they can. I appreciate that in recent years a certain amount has been done to help deserted families, but I wonder whether my hon. Friend is completely satisfied that the law is working as effectively as it should.
  I understand that a mother and her children are not covered by National Insurance against desertion by the father, although they have the right at civil law to be maintained by him. One improvement made was the decision to extend the legal aid scheme to matrimonial causes. Then we had the Maintenance Orders Act, 1958, whereby we took a leaf out of the Scots' book and enabled deserted wives to apply for a detachment of earnings order.
  Although these things have been done to help deserted wives, I still believe that many of them are experiencing great difficulty in receiving the regular payments of maintenance due to them. If the father ceases payment and disappears, the wife must face the bleak prospect of trying to trace him and, if she manages to find him, she often encounters great difficulty in collecting the amounts due. One deserted wife has told me that her husband was ordered to pay the arrears he still owes her at the rate of this a week. She has worked it out that he must live for another 100 years to pay them off. This would be farcical if it were not tragic.
  My hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, but the present procedure is that the wife applies to her local magistrates' court for an order for herself and her children. At that time the court assesses the man's ability to pay, along with the needs of the wife and children. I believe that the maximum maintenance that can be awarded is £7 10s. a week for the wife and £2 10s. for each child, although these amounts are rarely awarded. This, I presume, is because magistrates realise that if the amount they award is too high then the man will fall behind in his payments, and the magistrates know all too well the difficulties of trying to trace a missing husband and of obtaining arrears of maintenance.
  Perhaps my hon. Friend tonight could explain what, if anything, his Department does to help to trace these missing husbands.
  728
  I should like to draw his attention to the procedure which is adopted by the National Assistance Board. Deserted wives who are not able to go out to work and who do suffer financial hardship can apply to the National Assistance Board, which will give them regular allowances which are paid by Post Office order book. The National Assistance Board also takes over the task of collecting the money and paying it from the court. In this way it does become possible for a woman to receive the same income per week whether her husband falls behind in his payments or not, and I think that this is tremendously important, because many of these women do have great difficulty in trying to obtain it, and in the same way women on National Assistance are saved many fruitless journeys, and they are also fully aware that the amount of money they will receive each week is there.
  But the deserted wife who goes out to work and is therefore not able to claim National Assistance has a great deal of difficulty in receiving her dues. She has to visit the court to receive her maintenance, and sometimes, when she goes to the court, the money is there, and sometimes it is not. To find out, she has got to make the necessary journey and quite often she has got to do this in her lunch hour, and that does not give her very much time for her meal. She may telephone to find out whether the money has arrived or not, only to be told, "This is something which cannot be discussed on the 'phone". This is true. Surely my hon. Friend could suggest something to improve this procedure, because surely nothing can be more aggravating than to give up part of a precious lunch hour to go to court only to find that the money to which she is entitled has not been paid into the court.
  I have already sent my hon. Friend a communication—that is what it could be called—which one of my women constituents received from a magistrates' court in Yorkshire. The communication was the corner of an envelope which had been torn off and on which was scrawled,
  "Your husband says he has paid £5 10s. but we have not received it."
  This is disgraceful, because I really think that that particular official should recognise that courtesy costs nothing and

  729
  that all that that woman was seeking was the amount which had been granted to her by the court to maintain herself and her children.
  Deserted wives in receipt of National Assistance know that if their husbands do disappear the National Assistance Board will take proceedings against the defaulting husbands. It is not surprising, because in 1961 deserted wives and mothers of dependent children received altogether £21,920,000 from the National Assistance Board and that of this amount husbands paid back to the Board £1,803,000. So the taxpayers in this country contributed £20,117,000. I do not see—and I am sure that the majority of deserted wives agree with me about this—why the taxpayer should have to pay so much money when at the same time the law allows so many of these men who have deserted their wives and families just to abdicate their responsibilities.
  In 1951 the National Assistance Board reported:
  "It is regrettable that in so high a proportion of cases little or nothing can be accomplished and so little of the cost to public funds can be recovered. It is far from easy to trace a man who is designedly hiding himself from possible discovery and who has the whole country and a population of 50 million to hide himself in, or can go abroad."
  And this when one realises that when the Board takes action against a defaulting husband it becomes a criminal action and the Board can obtain the support of the police.
  If the Board finds it difficult to trace the defaulters, it must seem almost impossible for the mother who has to do all this on her own by civil action. Therefore, I earnestly urge my hon. Friend to look into ways in which his Department can help trace missing husbands. This is vitally important. As the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce pronounced, it may be very difficult to trace a husband who has disappeared with the object of evading his responsibilities to his wife and children. A wife cannot, however, proceed with her application for an order until her husband is found, since the law requires that a summons must be served on him before the case can be heard. This finding of the runaway husbands is, therefore, vitally important.
  730
  As things stand, when a wife applies for a maintenance order, there is no way of deducting maintenance from the man's wages when the order is granted. To complicate matters further, if the husband should disappear before the hearing takes place, it may prove very difficult to serve the summons on him. In fact, it is only when maintenance is four weeks in arrears that the wife can apply for what is known as an attachment of earnings order. I believe that this has been of assistance to some deserted wives, but it also has many pitfalls. By this order an employer deducts the maintenance money from the husband's pay packet and sends it to the court. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that many husbands do not like the idea of their employers knowing too much about their matrimonial difficulties. Also, it involves the employers in extra paperwork. As a letter in the Economist in 1962 stated, the trouble is that a good many employers find the bother of making the payments one more reason for sacking such a man. This means that both families for which he is responsible end up on National Assistance, and once more up go costs.
  Whichever way they turn, deserted wives find themselves beset with difficulties. When maintenance is in arrears, the wife has to consider taking out a summons for the arrears because the court cannot issue a summons without the woman's consent. Even then there is still the vexed question of finding the husband and getting him to pay the amount due. I am told that this constant pursuing of husbands through the courts and all to so little avail, forces many women to give up the struggle in despair. I wonder whether my hon. Friend can give me any idea of the number of orders which are removed from court books each year. Each time one of these orders is removed in these circumstances it is really a sign of our failure because it is a sign that the man has succeeded in shedding his responsibilities, and the deserted wife must then find ways to earn sufficient to feed, clothe and house his children. I do not doubt that many of these women have a very peculiar idea of the justice of this situation.
  I personally feel—I know I cannot pursue this point too far—that the only

  731
  sensible and fair solution would be to help these deserted wives with families by instituting some form of fatherless child allowance whereby the Government would be responsible for finding the husbands and getting the money from them. But I am also perfectly aware that this goes far beyond the powers of my hon. Friend's Department. However, in the meantime I think that the Department could do much more to assist these families.
  Therefore, I earnestly ask my hon. Friend to look at the problem and discover ways in which the Home Office could take administrative action to assist in tracing missing husbands. If this were done, it could perhaps be a deterrent to husbands who contemplate avoiding their responsibilities and would make the task facing deserted wives a little easier.
  Finally, I emphasise that this is a very human problem. I have never believed that Government Departments are quite the soulless places that they often appear to be. Therefore, I hope tonight that my hon. Friend will show a great deal of humanity and that he will be able to promise some action to remedy what I feel to be a great social injustice.
  10.15 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. C. M. Woodhouse): I certainly wish to meet my hon. Friend's points in the spirit of humanity in which he has put them forward. He recognises, of course, that this is not an occasion when we can discuss legislation, and he will, on doubt, also recognise that this is a field in which there is particular scope for the lawyers' harsh but true maxim that hard cases made bad law. But that is no reason why we should not constantly look sympathetically at the possibilities of administrative improvement in the light of difficult cases as they arise.
  I will refer at once to the particular case about which my hon. Friend and I have corresponded and to which he has referred tonight—the case of his constituent to whom an admittedly inadequate written note was sent by a court. As he knows, the incident was brought to the attention of the clerk of the court who has expressed his regret, with which I gladly associate myself. I am sure
  732
  that every effort is made normally by court officials to avoid treating members of the public discourteously, even unintentionally. I now turn to the main substance of my hon. Friend's speech, and I assure him on behalf of the Home Secretary that the Home Office is never completely satisfied with anything and that that is the starting point for considering the problem tonight.
  My hon. Friend has performed a valuable service in calling attention to the plight of deserted wives. Husbands who abandon their wives and children and seek to evade their responsibilities for maintaining them naturally earn the contempt of all of us and my right hon. Friend and I, and our Department, have the deepest sympathy for wives in these painful circumstances. Every case of this kind represents not only a hardship but also one of personal tragedy and it is to give help in these cases that the matrimonial law exists. It is, however, important to remember that in not all of the cases in which the law makes provision are the merits so clearly apportioned. My hon. Friend will appreciate that matrimonial discord can result from a great variety of causes and that the fault is not always that of the husband.
  Until the circumstances have been fully investigated and the merits of the often conflicting stories judicially weighed, it is impossible to determine what settlement should be made between the parties. That is an essential prerequisite to the making of a maintenance order. Perhaps I may make this clearer by reference to some of the provisions of the principal Statute, the Matrimonial Proceedings (Magistrates' Courts) Act, 1960. I am, of course, referring only to the matrimonial jurisdiction of magistrates' courts. The Act was based on the recommendations of a departmental committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Arthian Davies, which reported in 1959. My hon. Friend will see, therefore, that this branch of the law has only recently been thoroughly reviewed and brought up to date.
  Section 1 of the Act deals with the circumstances in which a magistrates' court may make an order. The grounds of complaint under this Section are desertion, persistent cruelty, certain offences of assault, adultery, habitual

  733
  drunkenness or drug addiction, wilful negligence to maintain and one or two others. It will be seen that the substantiation of these grounds of complaint may involve complicated issues.
  In the case of desertion, for instance, the husband may well allege that it was the behaviour of the wife which forced him to leave her. These are issues which can only properly be decided by a court. Once the court has established that a ground for complaint exists, it has to decide what sort of order it should make. The possible contents of this order are set out in Section 2.
  The order may include provisions for separation, the payment of maintenance and the legal custody of the children or other provision for the welfare of the children. The court, in effect, has to consider all the arrangements which should be made in view of the break up of the marriage and not only the payment of maintenance.
  In deciding the terms of the provision for payment of maintenance, the court is also required to consider all the circumstances of the case in order to arrive at an appropriate weekly sum which, as my hon. Friend indicated, must not exceed £7 10s. a week. I emphasise the fact that the court must consider all the circumstances of the case. It is not solely concerned with hardship of the wife. It has also to bear in mind, for instance, the earning capacity of the husband and any other responsibilities he may have. It would clearly not be right for an order to be made which would result in undue hardship to other innocent parties for whose maintenance the husband might be responsible, although, of course, it is true that his responsibility to the wife he has wronged is paramount. But these are all human cases and the court is bound to take into account the effect that its order will have on all parties who may be involved.
  The matter does not end with the making of the order. The circumstances of the parties may change and the complainant's subsequent behaviour may diminish her entitlement to maintenance from her husband. There are provisions in the Act for either party to apply to the court for a variation of the order and at any time to take account of these changed circumstances. These are
  734
  important provisions, because a maintenance order may subsist for twenty or thirty years or even more.
  I have dealt with these provisions at some length because I want the House to bear in mind the complexity of the issues involved and the necessity for an impartial tribunal to disentangle them, and to remember that it is a necessity which does not end with the making of the order.
  There are similar detailed provisions for the enforcement of an order, and I should like briefly to refer to one or two of these which appear to me to be most relevant in the context in which my hon. Friend has initiated the debate. He referred to the visits which wives have to pay to courts to collect their money. I should like him to know that there is provision for payments to be sent by post if the wife so requests, and if state is prepared to pay the postage, which, of course, is not a heavy burden.
  Next, the initiation of enforcement proceedings is made as simple as possible. If payments are in arrears, the complainant has only to write to the clerk of the court, through which the order directs that payment should be made, asking him to institute proceedings. Unless it then appears to the clerk that the circumstances make it unreasonable for him to do so, he is required to take proceedings in his own name. This provision does not affect the right of the complainant to proceed in her own name if she prefers to do so. These are simply alternative provisions and she can make her choice.
  Enforcement proceedings then involve a further hearing before the court and a number of courses are open to it. The court may order the payment of arrears by small weekly sums. My hon. Friend cited one instance in which it certainly appeared on the face of it that the weekly sums were unreasonably small, but it would be improper for me to comment on or criticise the decision of the court in circumstances with which I am not familiar.
  Alternatively, in certain circumstances it may make an attachment of earnings order, or may make an order for the committal to prison of the defendant if the arrears are not paid, but suspending the effect of the committal. Finally,

  735
  if the defendant continues to prove recalcitrant, the court may, subject to certain safeguards, commit him to prison for a period not exceeding six weeks. It is then open to the defendant to secure his release or a shortening of the period of imprisonment by paying the whole or part of the arrears. If he fails to do so, however, they are not extinguished by his period of imprisonment.
  These provisions have sometimes been criticised on the ground that they are too favourable towards the defendant. It has been complained that it is all too easy for defaulting husbands to disappear and that wives do not have facilities to trace them, both for the purpose of instituting proceedings and for enforcing an order already made.
  But we should bear in mind that these difficulties do not arise in every case, because many husbands are conscientious in their obligations. I may also say that the Home Office sometimes receives complaints from husbands who allege that the maintenance laws are oppressively against them. But there are many cases in which deserted wives are faced with real difficulties in enforcing maintenance orders and we do all we can to help in these cases.
  As a general rule—and this is very important—information in social security records held centrally by Government Departments is regarded as strictly confidential, but a relaxation has been made in recent years where an address is sought for the purpose of initiating maintenance or affiliation proceedings, or the enforcement of a maintenance order.
  I think that the availability of this information is well known to clerks of courts, but when I answered a Question in the House this afternoon some hon. Members apparently were unaware that these arrangements existed. I am certainly going to consider, as I undertook to do this afternoon, whether anything should be done to remind those who need to know that it is possible to obtain an address in this way.
  When a warrant has been issued for the arrest of a defendant, the police make every effort to execute it and in such circumstances they would also have access to the same facilities for information.
  736
  But if a husband is determined to evade his responsibility, either by continually moving round, or undergoing periodic periods of imprisonment, or simply neglecting to work, there is in the last resort nothing that can be done, whether by the State or by a court, or by anybody else, to bring him to book, and I think that that is a point which my hon. Friend recognised.
  My hon. Friend quoted a passage from the Report of the National Assisance Board illustrating the difficulties which the Board has even when relying on the resources of the police for the purposes of taking criminal proceedings, and a change of mechanism or a shifting of responsibility would not make it any more possible than it is now to extract payment from a defaulting husband who was absolutely determined not to meet his responsibilities.
  My hon. Friend also asked whether I could tell him in how many cases orders continue to exist without any payment being made under them. I am afraid that I do not have those figures, but, even if they could be obtained, it would not be right to conclude that they represented the number of cases in which the law had failed, because payments may cease for a number of reasons—because of the death of one of the parties, or possibly even as the result of a reconciliation—and the court will not necessarily be aware of those changes of circumstance.
  It has been suggested that the State should undertake responsibility for the husband's maintenance obligations, and I hope that I shall not transgress the bounds of order if I touch briefly on my hon. Friend's suggestion. I have already made it clear that the object of the maintenance law is to establish in a court order the obligations as between a husband and wife. The wife's hardship is one of the relevant circumstances, but it is not the only one.
  In many cases the amount the court orders the husband to pay can only go some way to relieving the wife's hardship, and in such cases the State naturally comes further to the wife's help by means of National Assistance. But assistance provided by the State would not normally take into account the respective obligations of a husband and wife. If the State were to underwrite

  737
  a husband's maintenance obligations, it would still in many cases be found that additional payment was needed for relief of the wife's hardship. In other words, the extent of the husband's maintenance obligation does not provide an appropriate yardstick for determining the extent to which the State should assist.
  Perhaps I might amplify that by reference to the figures given by my hon. Friend, which were correct. The figure of just under £22 million covers payments to separated wives, women with illegitimate children, and divorced wives with legitimate children. In many of those cases there would be no maintenance order. In the case of women with illegitimate children, the putative father can be required to pay maintenance only in respect of the child. In many of those cases the National Assistance Board will have made up payments in respect of the woman's maintenance, and those payments are included in the total.
  The figure of £1,800,000 also relates only to payments made by husbands direct to the National Assistance Board. In addition, husbands pay substantial sums direct to their wives, which are excluded from those figures. There is no way of calculating the sum which men should have paid under court orders but failed to do so, but I assure my hon. Friend that the figure, if it could be
  738
  ascertained, would be substantially less than £20,117,000, which the taxpayer had to meet.
  I believe that my hon. Friend may have been thinking that it would cost the taxpayer rather less in the long run if the State were to take over the husband's obligations and the responsibility for collecting the husband's contribution, but my view is that the reverse would be a more likely outcome, though it is not merely on such grounds as cost that an essentially human problem such as this should be determined.
  In conclusion, I should like to reiterate the sympathy that I expressed at the beginning of my remarks for deserted wives. I hope that I have made it clear that this is a far from simple subject. A great many different factors have to be taken into account for which the existing law makes appropriate provision. Might I add finally that everything is tone, and will continue to be done, to operate the necessarily complicated law in the most humane way possible.
  The Question having been proposed at Ten o clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle

UNIVERSITY OF RHODESIA AND NYASALAND
3.6 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what proposals were made by the British Government at the conference on the University of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, why the conference was adjourned, and when it will be resumed.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, the noble Earl will no doubt have read the text of the communiqué which was issued in Salisbury on April 14. The British and Southern Rhodesia Governments require more time to consider the financial problems between themselves. However, a further statement will be issued as soon as the inter-governmental consultations have been completed. If a satisfactory conclusion is reached between the Governments, as I hope it will be, no resumption of the conference will be necessary.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: But, my Lords, are the Government aware that the text of the statement that was made after the conference contained absolutely nothing about the Government's proposals at the conference—absolutely nothing at all? Are the Government further aware that the University of Rhodesia and Nyasaland is running down, that its funds will be used up by the end of next year, and that, unless something is done soon, the staff will leave to take up appointments elsewhere? Are the Government also aware
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that this University is essential to Central Africa, if these Central African countries are to have the administrative and professional personnel they will need in the critical months and years immediately after independence?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, the Government are acutely aware of all the three points raised by the noble Earl.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I strongly reinforce what the noble Earl has said? Is it not a fact that, if this University is not continued in full spate, there will be a disastrous situation in Central Africa? Will the noble Duke use every effort to try to persuade not only the Government of Southern Rhodesia, but also the Governments of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, to take a considerable interest in the continuation of this University?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, much as I should like to be able to give a reassuring answer to the noble Lord on the latter part of his question, I think we must face the fact that, at any rate for the time being, there is no possibility of further co-operation in the University by Northern Rhodesia or Nyasaland. I regret it, but there it is, and I should be misleading the noble Lord if I said that I thought there was any hope at the present stage. Therefore, these negotiations have had to be conducted between the Southern Rhodesian Government, the University authorities and ourselves. I do not wish to add to what I have already said, but I would reassure the noble Earl and the noble Lord that we are aware of the urgency of the problem.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, having had a good deal to do with the establishment of this University—which I agree with the noble Lords who have spoken is quite unique and absolutely essential to Central Africa—may I say this? While I appreciate that there must be time for further discussion, what would be perfectly, absolutely fatal would be that there should be a rundown of the University while conversations are going on. As this question is quite unique, and cannot in any way create a precedent, will the Government not give an undertaking that they will

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give a financial assurance that the University will be able to carry on efficiently and effectively while the necessary negotiations are taking place?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I think, my Lords, that, in essence, this is a financial problem; there are very considerable sums of money involved. At the risk of gross repetition, I can only say that I, and indeed the Government, are acutely aware of all the points raised by my noble friend and by other noble Lords, and that we expect and believe that we shall be able to make a further statement in the very near future.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not true that a certain sum of money left over from original funds was available—I think £400,000—and that that is in fact sufficient to enable this University to carry on at its present level of activity, at any rate until the financial negotiations are completed?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I think it fair to say that there are sufficient funds for the University to continue, at any rate until the end of this scholastic year. At the same time, I am aware of the point made by noble Lords opposite, that there is the danger of a run-down of the staff. This is an urgent problem and I can only repeat that it is being treated in an urgent manner.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, when the noble Duke talks of "the very near future", does he mean that agreement will be reached between the Governments before the Summer Recess; and, if so, will the Government be prepared to make a further statement in the House?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I very much hope that agreement will be reached, and a decision one way or the other will certainly come very much before the Summer Recess. I sincerely hope that there will be agreement, and this is a matter to which the Government are giving urgent consideration. A decision one way or the other will come very much sooner than the Summer Recess.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are some dozen Fairbridge scholars from this country studying in the University at the moment? They will naturally be in some state of anxiety as to whether they will be able to complete their University courses. Furthermore, there are a considerable number of applicants for next year's scholarships, and, unless they are given some reply as to the future of the University, they will perhaps be in two boats as to whether or not they can get into an English University.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I had hoped I had made it clear that I was acutely conscious of the anxiety that the future of this University is giving. I am aware of the twelve Fairbridge scholars. They, too, are worried. Everybody is worried about this matter, not least Her Majesty's Government.

PENAL REFORM
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Blakenham will be making a statement on Penal Reform.
ELECTIONS (WELSH FORMS) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (HOSPITAL BOARDS) BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

BURGH POLICE (AMENDMENT) (SCOTLAND) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed.
Bill reported without amendment. Report received.

FILMS (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
3.15 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1: [Amendment of s.39(3)(b) of Films Act 1960]:
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, at the beginning of Clause 1, to insert:
"(1) Section 39 of the Films Act 1960 (which provides for the registration of newsreels under Part II of that Act) shall be amended, in relation to applications for registration made after the end of September 1964 and to films registered in pursuance of such applications, in accordance with the following provisions of this section."
The noble Lord said: The Committee may remember that in moving the Second Reading of this short Bill I recommended it to your Lordships' House as a useful Bill, saying that it would make a considerable difference for the film producers of newsreels and would give more opportunity to the cinema-goer to see newsreels of events taken outside the United Kingdom and Commonwealth. This is a Bill that received support from the producers, from the trade unions and from the Government, and when I moved the Second Reading I did not anticipate any difficulty. I therefore feel I must apologise for having to place twelve Amendments before the Committee this afternoon, but this is due to the drafting requirements of the Minister. May I thank the Minister very much indeed for the assistance that he has given in this matter?
Amendment No. 1, which I now move, is intended to take account of the fact that the undertakings which the producers have to give when making applications for the registration of newsreels relate to the newsreels registered in a quarterly period. Section 39(4) of the Films Act, 1960, provides for the cancellation of any registration if any of the obligations in Section 39 are not
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fulfilled. We feel—and we agree with the Government here—that in view of Section 39(4) of the Films Act, 1960, it is necessary to put into this Bill a date from which the Bill will come into operation and films can be registered. This and the other Amendments can, I think, be taken as drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 5, at the beginning insert the said subsection.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 5, leave out from ("(3)") to ("the") in line 6.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, leave out from ("than") to ("comprised") in line 8 and insert ("three-quarters of the total of the photographs.)."—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This Amendment is to correct a printing error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 8, leave out ("newsreel") and insert ("newsreels").—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 10, after ("taken") insert ("as follows, that is to say—

(i) at least one-half of that total").—(Lord Shepherd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This is a further drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 12, leave out from ("Ireland") to ("by") in line 14, and insert ("(ii) the remainder (if any).").—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: I beg to move the next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, leave out from ("was") to end of line 18 and insert ("employed by the maker of the newsreels as a regular member of his staff in the United Kingdom.")—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 18, at end insert—
("(3) At the end of the section the following shall be added:—
Section 50(1) of this Act shall have effect in relation to a newsreel as if in the definition of 'maker' the word 'editing' were substituted for the word 'making'.").—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Definition of "Maker"]:
LORD SHEPHERD: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 2.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This, too, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 3.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4 [Citation]:
LORD SHEPHERD: This is a further drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 4, leave out ("(Amendment)").—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: This Amendment is to exclude Northern Ireland from the provisions of the Bill. May I apologise once again to the Committee and to you, my Lord Chairman? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 4, at end insert ("and this Act and the Films Act 1960 may be cited together as the Films Acts 1960 and 1964.
(2) This Act does not extend to Northern Ireland.").—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clause, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with Amendments.

CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (RIGHT OF REPLY) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.

HARBOURS BILL
3.24 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 19:
Orders for establishing schemes for control of movement of ships in harbours
19.—
(4) The provisions of a control of movement order having effect by virtue of subsection (3)(i) above shall not be so framed as to permit

(b) on conviction on indictment of a person of such an offence or of the master of a ship by reason of such a failure or contravention, of the infliction on him of imprisonment (whether in addition to, or in substitution for, a fine) for a term exceeding six months.

LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM had given Notice of two Amendments to the clause, the first being, in subsection (3)(d), after "empowering" to insert: "subject to the next following subsection". The noble Lord said: With the agreement of the Committee Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 might be taken together. As the clause is drawn, the control authority could prohibit—
THE EARL OF SWINTON: May I interrupt my noble friend on a point of order? It seems to me that all the Amendments which follow are really dealing with the same situation as to what the penalties would be.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
LORD TEYNHAM: As the clause is drawn the control authority could in fact—
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): May I interrupt my noble friend? My understanding of this matter is that Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 in point of fact deal with quite different points.
LORD TEYNHAM: I do not think so. If the Committee agree that we should debate them together I will proceed to do so. Perhaps the Committee will see when we have debated this clause that the two, in fact, hang together. As the clause is drawn, the control authority could prohibit a ship from entering a harbour on the ground that it was not fitted with the specified equipment. I maintain that this provision raises an important principle. A control of movement order, in effect, could require the compulsory fitting of equipment. For instance, there is no international agreement to fit very-high-frequency radiotelephone equipment for harbour control, which I think is proposed under the Bill. I suggest that a provision which amounts to a unilateral requirement to fit special equipment to a ship might result in unfortunate repercussions to British ships in foreign harbours. If we were to impose requirements to fit equipment in a ship irrespective of its flag, foreign countries would be encouraged to do the same; and this might well be unacceptable to us.
I suggest that it would be wrong, on the grounds both of safety and of the possibility of international repercussions, to make a ship, stay outside a harbour, perhaps in bad weather, because she was not fitted with the equipment laid down by the control of movement order. Once the ship is inside the harbour there is no reason why she should not be directed to a designated anchorage in the interests of safety. I suggest that this clause is yet another instance of the tidy mind in drafting Bills which takes no account at all of practical facts. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 5, after ("empowering") insert ("(subject to the next following subsection)").—(Lord Teynham)
LORD HOBSON: This matter was raised by Opposition Members on
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Second Reading in the other place and I endorse, broadly, the statement and arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham. The real points to bear in mind are that we in Britain are the most advanced of any nation in the world, so far as navigational aids are concerned, whether it be very-high-frequency radiotelephone or radar. We are in the very exceptional position of having around our coast radio beacons (I will not mention the name, as that could be construed as advertising), and parts of the coast near Ushant, and parts of the Eastern seaboard of America are also so equipped. But if we are to insist on laying down that ships entering our ports must be equipped with the latest equipment, it seems to me to be very unfair that penalties should be provided in respect of the entry by other ships not so equipped. Because, as the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, said, there will be retaliations which will be harmful to British shipping entering ports in other countries. There is no need for me to mention the names, but some nations might be very awkward if our ships did not comply with standards which they laid down. As the clause stands, it invites retaliation; and this Amendment is moved with the sole object of making it possible that, whatever standards are laid down by the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry's advisers, they are agreed to internationally.
In another place, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport said that this was a wrecking Amendment. I have read the clause two or three times and I still fail to see how this Amendment can be described as a wrecking Amendment. We are not against having ships equipped with safety devices in our ports at all. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that we are. All we are doing is saying that the advanced standards of modern British ships shall not of necessity be the international standard. That can come in time, but so long as we are in advance of the normal international standard it seems to us unfair, particularly because of the dire consequences of retaliation that could ensue. I hope that after the noble Lord's serious consideration of this matter, which f am sure he has given, he will see fit to accept this Amendment.
LORD CHESHAM: At the moment, although we are speaking to two Amendments, I will take the first in isolation, if I may, because although it may have been the intention of my noble friend Lord Teynham that they should hang together, the effect is to produce a separate point and I think that I must first explain that point before continuing to deal with what has been said about the other Amendment. Amendment No. 41 has the effect of making directions under sub-paragraph (3)(d) of Clause 19 subject to the provisions of sub-paragraph (4) of that clause. I am merely going to say that this Amendment is unnecessary because of the provisions of sub-paragraph (3)(i).
LORD SHACKLETON: Surely it is subsection (3), paragraph (i). I think this is why the misunderstanding may have arisen. My view is the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Teynham.
LORD CHESHAM: I am trying to get it right but the noble Lord keeps interrupting me. If the noble Lord would allow me to continue for a moment, perhaps I could make it clear. I refer to Clause 19. I thought the correct term was "sub-paragraphs" and that "subsections" was a term that applied after the Bill became an Act. But never mind. Subsection (3) is divided into a number of paragraphs, one of which is paragraph (i). That is further sub-divided into (i) and (ii), and I refer to sub-paragraph (ii), which is at the top of page 23. That provides what the noble Lord wants done. It has precisely the effect of the Amendment that he has on the Marshalled List. To this extent I have dealt with Amendment No. 41 before we deal with No. 42, and perhaps it may be convenient if I stop for a moment at this stage.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: Surely this is a misunderstanding of the effect of the Amendments which stand upon the Marshalled List. There is not only No. 41, but also No. 42 for the purpose of inserting a new subsection, and it is to that new subsection to which Amendment No. 41 refers. The noble Lord's point would be correct on the assumption that Amendment No. 42 was
580
not carried, but it is perfectly clear that these two Amendments are both intended to be related, and in that case the reference in the first Amendment to "the next following subsection" is obviously a reference to the new subsection provided for in Amendment No. 42, if it is agreed to.
LORD SHACKLETON: I hope the noble Lord will not think that I am trying to make the position more difficult. I was trying to help him, so that we could use the same language and the same designations which, I understand, are the practice of this House. I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor can clarify this, but I understand that this is precisely what the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, is trying to do, and I should think it is pointless to discuss No. 41 without No. 42, because the new subsection to which he refers is the one contained in No. 42. I understood that the small (a) and (i) to which the noble Lord was referring were called paragraphs or sub-paragraphs, but perhaps the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees can help us on this.
LORD CHESHAM: I do not want to confuse this issue—
LORD SHACKLETON: They have told the noble Lord wrong.
LORD CHESHAM: Unless my Marshalled List is misprinted, Amendment No. 41 begins
"Page 22, line 5, …"
and then refers to "the next following subsection"—I now see what the noble Lord means. We are in a little bit of a procedural difficulty, because I think that whether it should be there or not is dependent on the insertion of the new subsection. But this Amendment in isolation does not make sense.
LORD SHACKLETON: That is why the noble Lord wants to take them together.
LORD CHESHAM: It is perfectly in order in this House to discuss two Amendments together, but they cannot be moved together. Therefore, what are we to do?
THE EARL OF SWINTON: May I ask the noble Lord this point? Suppose this first Amendment is withdrawn, shall we be in any way prejudiced in discussing any of the Amendments which follow? If that is so, is not the sensible thing to do to withdraw this Amendment and then take the substantive Amendment, and if the Bill is amended, then whatever is necessary can be put in on Report.
LORD CHESHAM: Perhaps it might be easier to do it one way or the other. The better way might be to discuss them together. I am anxious to be clear about this.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): I would only say that, of course, it would not be proper for me to say anything at all about the merits of this Amendment, but in reading the Marshalled List it seems to me to be clear that, first of all, the only Amendment before the Committee at the moment is No. 41. On the other hand, it seems to be clear that No. 42 stands or falls by No. 41. If No. 41 is carried, your Lordships will probably wish to carry No. 42, and, on the contrary, if No. 41 is rejected, probably No. 42 will be entirely unnecessary.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: We are obliged to the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees for putting the matter so very clearly. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that we are in a procedural difficulty, but the only man who has made the procedural difficulty is the Parliamentary Secretary. I have paid him compliments twice in the last week, saying that he is a very good Parliamentary Secretary, which he is; but to-day he is off-colour. It is perfectly clear that this first Amendment, No. 41, leads into the second Amendment. It says "subject to the next following subsection", and the new subsection appears in Amendment No. 42. It is perfectly clear that these two Amendments hang together. I entirely agree that the Chair must put the Amendments separately; but if No. 41 is lost, then, by inference, and logically, No. 42 is lost also, and if No. 41 is carried, then No. 42 is carried. Surely the matter would be simpler if the Parliamentary Secretary would be good enough to address himself in his speech to the merits or demerits of both Amendments, and then
582
let the Committee vote on No. 41 and, if necessary, on No. 42. Is not that the simple way out of such difficulty as may or may not exist?
LORD CHESHAM: Yes. I am most grateful to the noble Lord for having pointed out to me what I have just said. I suggest that at this point we can start again, the position being that the carrying or otherwise of Amendment No. 41 rests on the merits of No. 42, to which I shall now address myself.
It seemed to me that the arguments put forward from both sides of the Committee stemmed from the support of an Amendment in identical terms put down during the passage of the Bill in another place. That was aimed at what was the original draft of the Bill, which was in a shape that would have caused worry such as noble Lords have expressed to a much greater extent than the form in which the Bill now is. Because shipowners feared, as we have been told, that other countries might follow the lead and specify certain equipment, to the detriment of shipowners, and might proceed in the way that we have had described to us to-day, an Amendment was moved on Report in another place and is now embodied in the Bill. Strictly speaking, incidentally, the Amendment we are now discussing, to he complete, ought to provide also for the deletion of paragraph (d) of Clause 19(3). But that is by the way, and I hope it will not mean anything of the kind.
I think it was acknowledged by those who supported the Amendment in another place—though, frankly, that has not been the case to-day—that the Government Amendment in another place went a considerable way to meet the fears and objections that had been expressed. The Government Amendment, not going quite so far as was suggested, provided that the equipment must be of a kind agreed or recommended internationally. That will allow the existing V.H.F. system of radio-telephony to be specified because marine V.H.F. conforms to the provisions of the International Telecommunications Union Radio Regulations, 1959. It would also allow radar, as we now have it, to be used, because the Safety of Life at Sea Convention, 1960, made recommendations about the standards of marine radar.

583
What is suggested to-day is that there shall be no prohibition on the ground that a ship is not fitted with particular equipment unless that equipment has been the subject of an international convention accepted by Her Majesty's Government.
Now I must come to the reason why my colleague in another place described this as a wrecking Amendment, which, quite frankly, is the way I would describe it. I am certain that neither my noble friend nor the noble Lord, Lord Hobson, have the slightest intention that it should be such: I entirely absolve them from any such idea. But it does have that effect. The reason is that it may well be years before we have an international agreement signed, sealed, delivered, ratified and accepted, which would be necessary under this Amendment, and therefore it would be years before the schemes could be brought in to be effective; and there is every reason to suppose that in some places such schemes for traffic control are required now.
It seems a great pity to waste the lead and the expertise which has been developed in this country to which the noble Lord, Lord Hobson, referred a little earlier, and to which the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, referred, I believe, on Second Reading, and not to put it to good use. I should have thought that accepting the Bill as it is would be entirely to the benefit of shipowners, because the equipment which is now available for use, which they could not otherwise use, can bring their ships safely into harbour through fog and in adverse circumstances. If that equipment is to be debarred from use, which would be the effect of this Amendment, the only alternative will be that it must stay outside. I do not believe that is what noble Lords want.
I think this Amendment is wrong. I think, having gone so far as we have to safeguard the position by specifying only equipment which is recommended or agreed internationally, and with no discrimination against anyone else's ships, that is as far as it is necessary to go, and the position is safeguarded so far as any other country is concerned. To accept this Amendment would be likely to defeat the whole purpose of
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this part of the Bill, and I hope your Lordships will not wish to do so.
VISCOUNT RUNCIMAN OF DOXFORD: May I ask the noble Lord one question? He said that the effect of this Amendment would be to debar ships from entering under certain conditions. Surely the whole nature of the case is to lay down the conditions under which they can enter. It is permissive, not mandatory. The control authority is not obliged to exclude ships if they do not comply. It may say that they must not come if they do not, but that is not the same position as binding its hands not to allow them to come if they do not.
LORD CHESHAM: If the control scheme is to be brought in and someone is to be empowered to specify circumstances in which a ship shall not enter unless it has certain equipment, if, as will now be the case, a ship is required to have equipment which it is practically impossible for it to obtain and it may be years before it is possible to do so, I should regard that requirement as knocking the heart out of this part of the Bill.
VISCOUNT RUNCIMAN OF DOXFORD: Surely the clause says "empowering such person to prohibit". It is purely empowering and not compelling.
LORD CHESHAM: To carry on with the clause, it says:
"… unless the ship is fitted with such equipment as may be so specified."
The noble Viscount must not overlook the fact that we are endeavouring to create a situation based on considerations of safety. We have nowadays large ships carrying large and valuable cargoes, some of which may be dangerous to some extent; and we also have very fine control systems based on radar. I think that we should not debar ourselves from using these in harbours. I think it is not unreasonable to expect, if you have a traffic control scheme, that in the interests of both safety and efficiency you should be able to use the equipment which goes with it.
LORD HOBSON: I think the main point here is that we are afraid that the noble Lord and the Ministry are putting too high a standard on safety requirements with regard to V.H.F. and

585
radar too early. That is really the point. The argument here advanced would be a sound one if it applied only to British ships. The fact is that not only British ships enter our ports. I agree that it might take a long time to get international standards with regard to navigational aids. I would say en passant that Her Majesty's present advisers have taken a long time to agree to the international standards of safety at sea, which they have just ratified.
The main point is that, where we have foreign trade carried out by British ships, particularly the British tramp fleet, if we are to have standards which are of such modern requirements and such advanced scientific design, there is a great danger because other countries which are ill-disposed to this nation could introduce retaliatory measures. That is what we are frightened of. We think it would be inimical to the interests of British shipping. It is not that we are against safety at sea but, as I said, that the standard is being placed too high, too early.
LORD CHESHAM: I knew that that was what the noble Lord was frightened of: he made it perfectly clear. To meet that fear I said that we had selected something which had been agreed or recommended internationally as the standard. That was done to avoid setting an impossibly high standard, and also to produce a standard from which anybody else would find difficulty in departing in the case of retaliation. That was done to meet those very points, and, I submit, meet them it does. After all, as the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, said, this is only an empowering measure. Also, it does not make the fitting of such equipment compulsory. No ship, either British or foreign, is compelled to fit anything of the kind. It merely means that where these highly desirable and, I would say, essential, schemes are brought into effect, in the case of fog, for instance, a ship, instead of having to apply to go in, will have to lie outside. That is all; there is no compulsion about it. But if there are these schemes, they must be properly equipped and properly run.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: Is it clear that where a regulation is passed and is being enforced by a harbour authority,
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that regulation will apply equally to any foreign ship as to any British ship? That seems to me to be vital. If that is so, then I dare say the matter is not open to such objection.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): I think clearly the answer to that question is, "Yes." I would also, if I might intervene for one moment in the troubled waters in this particular harbour, say this. This is a Bill which we hope will be enacted and will last for a considerable time. We are here considering the scope of the movement control orders that can be made under the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Hobson, was worried that too high a standard may be imposed at the outset. I appreciate his anxiety, and my noble friend has dealt with that.
But, of course, the real time to consider that is when the movement control order is formulated; and there is under Schedule 5 ample power for lodging objections to any particular proposal. That will be the time to consider whether too high a standard is being imposed. I do not think it arises now, because if this Bill is going to last as an Act, as we hope, for some time, it must have the frame for the picture and contain the right empowering provisions. I should have thought that, in the light of what my noble friend has said, the case for the provisions of the kind that are now in the Bill is very strong. But I would stress that, when a movement control order is made, Schedule 5 gives ample power for considering the particular terms of the movement control order and lodging objections, if need be.
LORD TEYNHAM: Having listened carefully to the explanation given by the noble Lord, I cannot say that I am very happy or clear about it. He said that the Amendment moved and accepted in another place has allayed the fears of the shipping interests. I am advised quite differently. I should like to see in Hansard the report of what the Minister has said, and to reserve matters until the Report stage, when we might deal with it again. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Does the noble Lord, Lord Hobson, not move Amendment No. 42?
LORD HOBSON: We are under this procedural difficulty. I understand that I really moved it.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: The position is that I cannot call more than one Amendment at the same time, and so far I have called only No. 41. When the noble Lord, Lord Hobson, got up, I supposed that he was supporting the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, on Amendment No. 41. Does the noble Lord wish to move Amendment No. 42?
LORD HOBSON: No, my Lord Chairman.
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER had given notice of an Amendment in subsection 4(b), to leave out "imprisonment (whether in addition to, or in substitution for, a fine) for a term exceeding six months" and insert
"a penalty other than a fine or of the infliction on him of a fine exceeding £300".
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Amendments Nos. 43, 44 and 45 cover precisely the same points, and I should have thought it would be for the convenience of the Committee to discuss these three Amendments together. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Teynham, as well as discussing Nos. 44 and 45, could move No. 43 in place of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner.
LORD SHACKLETON: Why?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: So that we can discuss all three together.
3.58 p.m.
LORD HOBSON: I beg to move Amendment No. 43. This Amendment deals with the question of making the maximum penalty a fine not exceeding £300. Already harbour masters in practically all, if not all, ports in the United Kingdom have power to regulate navigation by giving directions to ships. The elaborate movement control orders which are envisaged in Clause 19 will not extend the existing orders which harbour masters already possess. It seems that the introduction of high penalties is something which is to be deplored. I believe that under the present Act, when dealing with the subject of navigation, there is a fine of £20, and in the Port of London a fine of £50. Therefore, what we seek to do here
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is to limit the fine that can be inflicted for the infringement of a movement order to the sum of £300. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 1, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 and insert ("a penalty other than a fine or of the infliction on him of a fine exceeding £300").—(Lord Hobson.)
LORD TEYNHAM: In supporting this Amendment, I go so far as to say that Clause 19(4) is the most unpleasant and uncalled for clause in any Bill that I have found it necessary to debate in your Lordships' House after 25 years' service here. As a captain in Her Majesty's Navy, it is repugnant to me to know that my brother officers who are masters of ships in the Merchant Navy can render themselves liable to six months' imprisonment for disobeying a movement order in a British ship. It is all very well for the Minister in charge of the Bill to say that it is only an enabling power, as he did on Second Reading. That is not the point. This Bill enables a port authority to make by-laws whereby offences against the port scheme can be dealt with either summarily or upon indictment, with the maximum penalty of six months' imprisonment.
At the present time there are really four offences for which a master of a ship is liable for imprisonment. The first is misconduct, such as wilful breach of duty or drunkenness endangering life or ships; second, the wilful destroying or mutilation of an official log book, or making false or fraudulent entries in it; third, infringement of the Collision Regulations by wilful default; fourth, knowingly taking a ship to sea in an unseaworthy condition. I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government what justification they have for enabling a further offence of this nature to be added. Can they state any specific cases that have occurred in the past warranting this drastic clause in the Bill? In any case, I would say that it is most improper that this matter should be dealt with under the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House.
I suggest that it would be most unfortunate if this imprisonment provision were copied abroad. It would mean that the masters of British ships might he sent to gaol for not complying with the order of a foreign harbour master.

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It may well be that a master's professional judgment led him to believe that to do so would involve risk to his ship. I should like to remind your Lordships that the professional judgment of three people may be involved in the navigation of a ship entering harbour: namely, the master, the pilot and the harbour master. Why should the master of a ship be singled out for imprisonment?
This clause is placing the master of a ship, who must have high professional competence, in the same category as the driver of a Ford van. I should like to point out that the possible imposition of sentences of imprisonment under this Bill has caused deep resentment among master mariners, and my Amendment which is now before the Committee will limit the penalty for failing to comply with a control of movement order to a fine not exceeding £500. Lord Hobson's Amendment says £300, and I am perfectly prepared to accept that.
3.53 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I now answer the speeches that have been made in support of Amendment No. 43, which we are discussing with Amendments Nos. 44 and 45. The question at issue is whether there should be any liability to imprisonment for a breach of a movement control order. I am sorry that this particular provision is repugnant to my noble friend and that he regards it as most improper. I feel that that language is not justified and that it is right for the Bill to remain in its present form.
My noble friend said a few moments ago that this Bill is concerned with safety, and in these days, when so many big ships carry explosives and highly inflammable cargoes, it is essential for the safety not only of those on the water, but also of those who live on the land in the neighbourhood, that there should be power to control the movement of vessels into and out of a port. I am not suggesting for one moment that the masters of these ships carrying such cargoes do not and will not exercise the greatest possible care, but the failure by others to comply with the requirements of a movement control order may place the masters of such ships in great difficulties and, indeed, lead to a situation of extreme danger. I hope that I carry
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the Committee with me in saying that it is clearly right to include in this Bill provisions for making a control of movement order.
Schedule 5, to which I drew attention a moment or two ago, deals with the procedure for making an order, and under that procedure anyone who objects to a provision in the proposed order will have ample opportunity for making known his objection. If one accepts that there must and should be a control of movement order in relation to certain ports, it surely follows that there must be some provision for dealing with those who do not comply with the requirements of such an order. I hope that so far I have been able to carry the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and the Committee with me.
The question comes to this: what should be the maximum penalty for disobedience to a provision of the order? It is suggested that it should be a fine of £300 or £500. I would say, in passing, that it is not usual, when fining in respect of cases where the conviction is upon indictment, to prescribe an upper limit to the power of the courts. It is normally left to the discretion of the courts. Here, I think, the real issue is whether there should be any power to impose a sentence of imprisonment, and the Bill itself puts a maximum of six months. Amendment No. 45 suggests a maximum of three months, and perhaps I might deal with that Amendment straight away. I would say, first, that I cannot recollect any case where, by Statute, provision is made for trial on indictment (that is to say, before assizes or quarter sessions), with power to send to prison, in which the maximum sentence of imprisonment is limited to three months. Such a penalty is well within the jurisdiction of the magistrates' courts, and it would be highly unusual to find an indictable offence with such a limit of sentence.
But the real issue, as I say, is: should there be any power, for any breach of movement control order, to impose sentences of imprisonment limited, as the Bill suggests, to six months? Breaches of these orders must vary greatly. We are not considering here the terms of any particular order because, as my noble friend behind me remarked just now, this is only an empowering or enabling provision. The orders will be

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considered under the machinery in Schedule 5. At one end of the scale, of course, the breaches may be extremely trivial and minor: they may be wholly inadvertent, due to incompetence, ignorance or carelessness. No one would suggest that if there were a breach of that character there should be a trial of the master of the ship, or of any other person, on indictment. What I would ask the Committee to consider is the kind of breach which comes at the other end of the scale—because we are here considering, not the minor breaches, but what would be the proper limit to a criminal sanction for a really serious breach.
What about the breaches at the other end of the scale: the case where the breach is deliberate, or is due to gross recklessness or gross carelessness; or where the result of the breach is to create a serious danger and a serious risk of loss of lives and damage to property? Such cases may not occur—one hopes they will not. But the question we have to consider is what should be the maximum penalty that may be imposed by the courts on conviction, should an extreme case of that kind in fact take place. The point I want to stress is that a deliberate or reckless disregard of a movement control order may lead to a serious situation. If that happens, if there is a flagrant, wilful disregard of instructions clearly given, is it right that the maximum penalty should be limited to a fine which might, after all, be paid not by the person responsible for the breach but by the owner of the ship?
My noble friend referred to the Collision Regulations. They, too, like these movement control orders, are designed to secure safety at sea, and if an infringement of those Collision Regulations is caused by the wilful default of the master or owner of the ship, the master or owner is guilty of a misdemeanour for which he may be prosecuted and, on conviction, sentenced to imprisonment for from six months to two years. This was enacted by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and the maximum then was two years with or without hard labour. We are proposing for this offence, which is analogous to that in the Collision Regulations, a maximum imprisonment of only six months, which
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obviously would be imposed—indeed, any sentence of imprisonment would be imposed—only for a gross case, a really bad case indeed.
I cannot discuss the terms of the movement control orders, but one would certainly not expect any movement control order, which may create a number of penalties for breaches of the provisions, to impose a liability of this sort to imprisonment except when the breach was of the character I have described.
As I have already said, when one gets a draft movement control order Schedule 5 gives ample opportunity for objecting and going into that matter. I must confess that I cannot see in the light of the provisions in the Collision Regulations and the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, that there is anything very novel, very unusual, improper, or repugnant in providing to secure compliance with a control of movement order that the most serious breaches to it may be punished on conviction and indictment by imprisonment for not more than six months.
My noble friend Lord Runciman of Doxford in the course of his speech on Second Reading said it was an entirely novel and wholly undesirable suggestion that a master mariner can render himself liable to six months' imprisonment for disobeying a movement order in port. I have already shown it is not novel. Nor do I think it is undesirable that there should be this liability. As I have said, such a liability to imprisonment exists for wilful breach of the Collision Regulations, and the Collision Regulations would not suffice in the absence of these provisions; it would not suffice simply to rely upon the Collision Regulations.
It might be argued that a collision even under control would involve breaches of the international Collision Regulations and so any penalties for such breaches set out in the Merchant Shipping Act would be applicable. That, in fact, need not necessarily follow, because the master could be observing the Collision Regulations and yet because of non-observance of directions made under a movement control order interfere seriously with the efficient working of the control system. Perhaps that might even lead to a collision. If I might give an example, he could

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anchor his ship in defiance of a direction to proceed; this would not be a breach of the Collision Regulations but would be a source of interference and could well be dangerous in an area of control. Alternatively, the master could keep his ship moving, observing the Collision Regulations, when directed to proceed to anchorage; this again could be dangerous. In a way this power we are seeking to take here, designed to secure safety, is complementary to, amplifies and brings up to date this particular part of the Collision Regulations.
My noble friend drew attention, too, to the fact that there is liability to imprisonment on conviction for other offences under the Merchant Shipping Act. The noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, did make this point, which I think my noble friend Lord Teynham rather hinted at to-day. The noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford suggested on Second Reading that a master might risk imprisonment for not taking his vessel to sea when ordered to do so because he might fear that the port authority would not accept a defence that in his view the vessel was not in a fit condition to proceed to sea. I would point out that the determination of the guilt or innocence of the master will not rest with the port authority. If it is decided to prosecute, either summarily or on indictment, it will be for the courts to decide whether or not guilt is established. I would draw your Lordships attention to the provisions of Clause 23, which we shall be discussing later. In the event of a prosecution being instituted it will, as your Lordships will see from that clause, be a defence for the person charged to prove—and I am reading the words—
"that he had reasonable ground for supposing that compliance with the direction, provision or prohibition in question, would be likely to imperil the ship or to prove that in the circumstances compliance with the direction, provision or prohibition in question was impracticable."
I would just like to add this: that we ordinarily leave, and rightly leave, to the courts a wide discretion as to the sentence imposed. I myself do not believe for one moment that the courts would impose any sentence of imprisonment for breach of a movement control order unless it was clearly established that the breach was deliberate, inexcus-
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able and was fraught with very serious consequences. It is because a very serious breach may warrant a sentence of imprisonment that I suggest to your Lordships that it is right not to exclude power to include in a movement control order a penalty of up to six months imprisonment. As I have said, Schedule 5 provides machinery for objecting to the contents of the movement control order, and it is the order itself which will prescribe the penalties for its breach.
I really cannot accept the statement made by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Chester on Second Reading that there would not be "a real element of criminal impropriety". I think there would if there were deliberate, inexcusable flouting of a movement control order seriously endangering lives and property. It is just to meet this extreme case, which one hopes will not in fact occur; it is because of the necessity of seeing so far as one can that these movement control orders, designed to secure safety, are not flouted, that I suggest to your Lordships, giving full weight, as I have, to the argument advanced on Second Reading and again by my noble friend to-day, that it is both right and wise to retain the Bill in its present form.
LORD SHACKLETON: The noble and learned Lord has, of course, deployed a very powerful case, but those of us who criticise this particular provision do so on the grounds that in this matter the Government are using a quite inappropriate instrument to deal with the situation for which there are already very strong sanctions. The noble and learned Lord referred to the Merchant Shipping Act, where there are provisions in certain sections—Section 200, Section 220 and Section 419, to which he referred—under which it is possible to inflict prison sentences. I should have thought that there was a strong case, in regard to this particular type of offence, to limit the penalty to a fine, and to leave the Merchant Shipping Act to take care of any grave or wilful breach of duty.
The noble and learned Lord several times used strong language about the more serious offences which. I should have thought, were adequately covered by Section 220 of the Merchant Shipping Act. The life and career of a master of a ship is dependent on much more than

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the threat of imprisonment; if he behaves in any way improperly and hazards his ship and there is a collision, he is likely to be ruined anyway. We are critical of this clause because we believe the Government are applying an old-fashioned approach to a situation which is quite different from that which applied when originally the Merchant Shipping Act was introduced. We are doing so now in a situation when there are many nations who, on occasions, have treated our masters in a way which has aroused indignation in this country. There have been instances recently where our seamen, and certainly our masters, have been treated in this way.
This, again, is an example of a unilateral act; it has not been the subject of international negotiations. I would argue that it is really not necessary for the purposes of this particular Bill to take powers to inflict a prison sentence, and that it is undesirable in view of the possibility of international repercussions. I urge the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to look at it in that light. Clearly, in legal terms his case was impeccable and powerful. Our complaint is that this is inappropriate for the sort of situation which is likely to arise under this particular clause; and if there is such a wilful act, such wilful breach of duty, then I suggest that the existing provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, and in particular of Section 220, would be the way to deal with it.
4.23 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: As we should expect, the Lord Chancellor has put the case most fairly, and the issue lies in a quite narrow compass. It is as to whether there should be a power to send to prison, and, if so, how that should be defined. I will come to the point of how it should be defined, because I think it is extremely important. My memory goes back to the Great Convention of 1928, when I was President of the Board of Trade, when nearly all the safety regulations were agreed by nearly all the nations, and in regard to which some Members of the Committee will still remember the most remarkable speech—I think the only speech he ever made here—that was made by Admiral Lord Jellicoe in support of the Convention. My recollection—the Lord Chan-
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cellor will correct me if I am wrong—is that the Convention and the Act which I introduced to give effect to that Convention covered an enormous field of safety regulations and the like. There was no penalty of imprisonment. There were the general penalties under the Merchant Shipping Act, as the noble Lord opposite has said, which I think were regarded as adequate.
There is a new Convention bringing that old Convention up to date, which is, I think, now enshrined in legislation which is coming before us in this Parliament. I should like to know whether, in that Convention legislation, there is any provision for imprisonment for breach of these internationally agreed rules and regulations. I should doubt it. I would agree, on the whole, with the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor—though I should have thought that the Merchant Shipping Act already provided for it—that where there was wilful, what we should commonly call criminal, default by a master risking his ship, or any ship, and the lives of the people on the ship, like a breach of the Collision Regulations (by wilful default or wilful misconduct, whichever the words are) that is so grave that there should be a power to send to prison.
I would have thought that provision was in the Merchant Shipping Act. If it is to exist, I think it ought to exist in specific legislation which lays down in precise terms what is the criminal offence for which a man may be sent to prison. It seems to me to be quite unsatisfactory just to leave it for inclusion in any one of a whole series of orders which are going to be made for every port and for every harbour regulating authority throughout the country. It is apparently going to be put in as a general penalty.
I would trust the High Court, certainly in this country, not to send a man to prison unless he had committed a serious offence. But that really is not the point here. The point here is that you are going to include in these harbour regulations a power to prosecute and power for the High Court to send to prison if a prosecution takes place. The noble Lord opposite said that it is a bit old-fashioned. It is rather like the old Army Act which used to read,
"Death, or such less penalty as this Act provides."

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That seems to me to he unsatisfactory. I would beg the Lord Chancellor to consider this matter. Let him lay down in a specific provision in the Bill what is the offence for which a master may be sent to prison; and let it be said that the harbour regulations may, under this Bill, contain that provision, but shall not contain any other provision making a man liable to go to prison. That seems to me much more consistent with what we always do in English legislation—namely, lay down specifically what the crime is for which a man may be indicted.
I have one other reason for asking that this general provision shall not be here in these terms. We have led the world in safety regulations; we have led the world in shipping practice; and countries all over the world, particularly in the Commonwealth, have copied our legislation and our provisions. To-day, many of these countries are self-governing, and it may well be that they may say, "Here, in the British Act, there is a power to imprison a master for a breach of harbour regulations. Let us include that in our domestic legislation in this country."
Then one might conceive the case (and I will take an imaginary place) in which the harbour master in Bunga Bunga has a row with the captain of a ship, and it might well be that the master of the ship would be much more likely to be right in knowing what it was safe to do than that particular harbour master. Yet if that general provision is there, then not only might the ship be impounded and the man be fined, but the master might be sent to prison. I beg the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to consider whether, if he wants this provision for imprisonment and thinks that something is necessary in addition to the Merchant Shipping Act, he should put down a clause prescribing the offence for which imprisonment would be an appropriate penalty and that the regulations should include only that.
4.32 p.m.
LORD GARDINER,: I feel that I can speak only with the indulgence of the Committee, apologising for the fact that, through no fault of my own, I was unable to be here when this Amendment was moved, and also asking for the indulgence of the Committee if I say any-
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thing which has been said before. I particularly regret, of course, that I did not hear what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said. Therefore, I can tell the Committee only what was in my mind when I put down this Amendment. In the first place, this is not a subject on which it can be said that I have any prejudices, because I am not a sailor; I am a landlubber, and I am no more prejudiced in favour of masters of ships than is anybody who has been to sea. Nor have I received any letter from any interested party.
What was in my mind was this. We have 30,000 people in prison, and 8,000 sleeping three to a cell. Our forces of law and order are having some difficulty in controlling the situation, and it seemed to me that we ought, perhaps, to think before we constitute a new criminal offence which is punishable by imprisonment. No doubt it is right that harbour authorities should be able to make control of movement orders, but some of them are really navigational orders and there should be only one person who is in charge of a ship. I had in mind not only that the official who gives the order may be a quite junior official and himself a landlubber, but also the possible difficulties of the master of ships, faced, on the one hand, with his duty to his owner and, on the other, with a risk of being sent to prison. A fine, even a large fine, is perhaps, in a sense, a different matter; because if the owner thinks that the master has done the right thing I suppose that the owner may pay the fine.
I also had much in mind that the Merchant Shipping Act is, in effect, a code of nautical discipline. Discipline is, of course, necessary for masters, officers and crew, but the Act constitutes a complete code, with the various courts of inquiry and survey, naval courts, and with the Court of Admiralty being able, on the face of it, to take care of almost anything which a master of a ship might do that was wrong. I particularly had in mind the fact that Parliament has thought fit to provide that on nearly all these tribunals set up under the Merchant Shipping Act there are members who have considerable nautical experience (this does not apply to the Court of Admiralty, I know, but they have the assistance of the Elder Brethren of Trinity

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House), whereas under this provision of the present Bill, the master of a ship will find himself before justices, either in petty sessions or in quarter sessions, Moreover, I was not at all clear that anything necessary was not already covered by the Merchant Shipping Act,
I then found, to my surprise, that there did not seem to have been the usual measure of consultation with interested persons which one would have anticipated. The Merchant Navy and Airline Officers' Association had not been consulted, and they oppose this clause; the Chamber of Shipping also oppose it, so far as it provides for imprisonment. I began to wonder who it was, apart from some gentlemen in a Government Department, who wanted it. Presumably the harbour authorities. But then it was said in another place, without contradiction, that the Docks and Harbours Association did not want it at all. One still begins to wonder who did want it. If I may say so (I hope without giving offence), it may be, of course, that in what I might call a June situation there was not the time for consultation which there is now, in what I might call an October situation. Apparently the only people who wanted it were the Government, and I could not understand why. When the Parliamentary Secretary—himself, of course, a very distinguished sailor—was asked in Standing Committee in another place, on February 4, about this provision he said (col. 476):
"I can say at once that we certainly do not regard this Amendment as one that would wreck the clause, and if it is the wish of the Committee that the lesser penalty should be accepted, we will bow to the will of the Committee."
So apparently it is not even the Government who are committed to it; it is only the gentlemen in the office, and nobody else.
I apologise if, in attempting to put the matter as shortly as possible, I have repeated arguments which were made in my absence. But I suggest that this Committee would be properly fulfilling its advisory function if it said that, no interested persons having been consulted in the usual way, and this provision being opposed by all the people who understand these matters, and since the Government have said that it is
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not a matter about which they care but is a matter entirely for the Committee, the case for creating a new criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment, so far as masters are concerned, if being in difficulties they think that the movement which some "landlubbing bloke" has told them to make is not a proper one, ought to be removed and the Amendment accordingly allowed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, was unable to be here when the Amendment was called, and I am sorry too that he was unable to hear the speech which I made in support of the Bill in its present form. I do not want to repeat what I said, but I would ask the Committee to allow me to say to the noble Lord that the case we are considering here is what is the appropriate penalty to provide as a maximum for what one might call the most serious and deliberate flouting of a control of movement order, which may seriously endanger a large number of lives and property. I recognise full well that in considering what should be the maximum penalty for such an offence there can be a wide variety of views. My approach to this problem is not in any way affected by questions of June or October or the views of civil servants, as the noble Lord suggested, but is to see whether we can get the right answer to this question.
I start with this. If, of course, the existing provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act sufficed to cover this situation, we should not have any provision of this sort in this Bill at all. The provisions of that Act impose liability not just to six months' imprisonment but to two years' imprisonment and make provision, as the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, knows, for trial before justices as well as trial on indictment. Of course, we could in this Bill have attracted the control of movement order to the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, in much the same way as the Collision Regulations are brought within the scope of that Act, and a prosecution for a breach of the Collision Regulations may lead to a sentence of imprisonment being imposed. And, of course, as I indicated before, that can happen only where the breach of the Collision Regulations is due to the wilful default of the master or owner of the ship.

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One of the difficulties which I am in—and my noble friend Lord Swinton drew attention to it—is the fact that in this Clause 19 this is drawn as a general empowering provision. I think a number of my noble friends are worried lest there might be some sort of overall provision in the movement control order imposing this as a kind of maximum liability irrespective of the quality of the breach. I myself, as I said before, cannot believe that any movement control order would do any such thing, because if it did it would have no possible chance of being approved by either House of Parliament. Although I say "approved", I would go further than that. The movement control orders have to be laid before Parliament, and under Clause 52 they are all subject to the Negative Resolution. I do not know what is in the mind of my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport with regard to this, but I myself would apprehend that he would certainly not do anything to assist in the presentation of a movement control order which imposed liability for imprisonment, except in the cases of the most wilful default on the part of the person responsible.
We are, in fact, being asked now by those who support this Amendment to say that, in no circumstances, however grave the breach of the movement control order may be, however much lives or property may be endangered by the breach—and it may be a breach by a small vessel which puts big vessels in danger and difficulties—would it be right for that breach to be met, if the guilt is established, by a sentence of imprisonment. I say quite frankly that I find it difficult to accept that. While I share with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, a reluctance to add to the population in our prisons, at the same time we normally entrust a wide discretion to our courts. And I am approaching this not at all in a Party spirit, or on account of the Election date being June or October or whenever it may be, but to try to get the right answer.
I believe myself, bearing in mind the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act which are far more draconian with their two years' imprisonment, and bearing in mind that it is the fact—I could
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amplify it at great length if the Committee wished it—that really the Merchant Shipping Act will not cover this field, that it is a reasonable provision to insert. Again, one should also bear in mind the fact that, before any provision in a movement control order defining an offence and imposing a liability to imprisonment for any term can really take effect, Parliament will have an opportunity of saying that it does not approve and of condemning it. All these are subject to the Negative Resolution.
I should be much more sympathetic to this Amendment if I felt there was not that Parliamentary control, because when we see what are the terms of the movement control order, then we can see—and I hope we shall see—this power to impose imprisonment limited by definition to offences which all of us would agree would be serious offences. At the present moment all that we are seeking to do in this Bill is to take power to secure that for some offences such a penalty can be prescribed. I myself do not think that unreasonable. I do not think that this is really an issue of Party politics. It is something which we should all approach very seriously, because, as I said a few moments ago, we are in this Bill trying to do something which will lead to greater safety, and to produce an Act which will work satisfactorily for many years.
I am, of course, perfectly prepared to consider any further suggestions which are made, and any views of noble Lords opposite and my noble friends. But I must say that I feel that it would be unwise, by accepting this Amendment, to prohibit the possibility of the imposition of a prison sentence of up to six months for the most serious breach of the requirements of a movement control order.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: Before the noble and learned Lord ends his reply, would he deal with the specific point which I put to him: that he should put into this Bill a precise definition of the offences for which the High Court is to be able to send a man to prison? Then we should know what we were making a criminal offence, and should know what it was that would go

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into every harbour regulation that was made. I cannot see any objection to that when, obviously, this is the kind of thing Parliament wants to do. I cannot see why we cannot do it now.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am certainly very attracted to that suggestion. I was just going to say this to the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: I am so sorry to have intervened.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I cannot, with my present state of knowledge of what it is intended to put into movement control orders, say that I could contemplate what the particular offences will be. But Collision Regulations are attracted to the Merchant Shipping Act by these words in Section 419(2), which reads as follows:
"If an infringement of the Collision Regulations is caused"—
and, of course, it does not follow that there must be a collision—
"… by the wilful default of the Master or owner of the ship, that Master or owner shall in respect of each offence be guilty of a misdemeanour."
That carries two years' imprisonment.
I should like to consider whether one could not do something on those lines, but possibly even a little narrower. That is where I am in a little difficulty about saying, Yes, to my noble friend's suggestion. If it would meet the Committee, I think I can give an undertaking (I have not consulted my right honourable friend) that I will try, before the Report stage, to re-draft this provision to make sure that the penalty of imprisonment could not be imposed under any movement control order, except in cases of wilful default on the part of the owner or master; or, to put the other side—a side with which noble Lords are familiar in cases of manslaughter and so on—something that is equivalent to gross recklessness.
If I could carry the Committee with me to the extent that if the imprisonment penalty were limited in that way, they would be satisfied, then I should feel that this has been a very useful discussion. I should certainly like to consider whether we can find a form of words to do that. That would mean—and, indeed, it is completely in line with
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what I said originally in dealing with this Amendment—that this liability to imprisonment would be kept for only the grossest, most serious breaches; and it might well be—I hope it would be—the case that this power would never have to be used. But if it is the wish of the Committee that I should give further thought to that possibility, I shall be glad to do so. I do not think this is a Party issue. It is something of very great importance. There are masters of all kinds, but we do want to be able to cover the most serious breaches of these orders quite as well as the minor ones, which are of no very great importance.
LORD HOBSON: In view of the assurance which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has given in his closing remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 19 agreed to.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: I think this might be a convenient moment to have the statement. I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to: House resumed accordingly.

PENAL REFORM
4.50 p.m.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT BLAKENHAM): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I wish to make a statement on penal policy which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has just made in another place. It will be convenient, I think, if I use his exact words. They are:
"In 1959 the Government published a White Paper, Penal Practice in a Changing Society, which discussed the greatly increased volume of post-war crime and the measures taken to deal with it, and forecast developments in the penal system and building programme over the next few years. It emphasised the need to intensify research into crime and its causes, and into the effectiveness of methods of treatment. It acknowledged that existing penal practice had developed piecemeal and empirically over a

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long period in response to experience and the pressure of current problems; and it looked forward to a time when, with growing knowledge, it would be possible to conduct a fundamental review of penal methods and of the philosophy on which they are based.
"The Government is to-day publishing a White Paper, The War Against Crime in England and Wales which is a survey of the progress made in this field since 1959. Copies of the White Paper will be in the Vote Office at 4 o'clock. In the light of that progress, the Government has decided that the time has now come for the fundamental review foreshadowed in 1959, and that its importance is such that it should be carried out by a Royal Commission. I have therefore recommended to The Queen, and Her Majesty has been pleased to approve, the setting up of a Royal Commission with the following terms of reference:
'in the light of modern knowledge of crime and its causes and of modern penal practice here and abroad, to re-examine the concepts and purposes which should underlie the punishment and treatment of offenders in England and Wales; to report how far they are realised by the penalties and methods of treatment available to the courts, and whether any changes in these, or in the arrangements and responsibility for selecting the sentences to be imposed on particular offenders, are desirable: to review the work of the services and institutions dealing with offenders and the responsibility for their administration: and to make recommendations'.
"I will announce later the names of the Chairman and members.
"It is the Government's intention to ask the Royal Commission to give first priority, in its survey, to offenders under 21 and their treatment."
THE EARL, OF LONGFORD: My Lords, I am sure we are all much obliged to the noble Viscount for his statement. The House will be aware, after many debates in this place, that noble Lords on this side of the House will always extend a welcome to far-reaching proposals of penal research; but I am bound to say that we find the timing of this particular Royal Commission highly mystifying. The Government have had many years during which to propose a Commission of this sort, and that it should come in the last months of a dying Government is,
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frankly, amazing to those of us who sit on this side of the House, and no doubt to many others. I think I need only say now that the matters with which the Royal Commission are concerned are highly urgent, and the House will realise that a future Labour Government could not possibly be retarded in the steps it might take by the fact that this Royal Commission had been set up.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I, from these Benches, add our welcome to this very interesting statement which, we agree with the noble Earl, is rather overdue? It is indeed rather mystifying that it has come at this point, but as we on these Benches do not really count very solidly on being on the Government Benches after the next General Election, we can welcome it from whatever Government it comes, and thank the noble Viscount for his statement.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, may I ask my noble relative—
VISCOUNT BLAKENHAM: My Lords, before I answer my noble brother, may I answer the first of the noble Lords who, I think, have broadly welcomed this? The noble Earl, Lord Longford, said that he thought the announcement was overdue. I think, to be fair, the 1959 White Paper explained that the time was not right for an inquiry. Since then, considerable progress has been made with the prison building programme and with criminological research; and, in the Government's view, the time is right. So far as this being a late appointment—and I believe this covers the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rea—I do not think this is a matter on which there is any political controversy and I would point out that the Labour Government, I believe, appointed a Royal Commission within less than a year of the General Election in 1950—the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, may I now ask my noble relative one question? It is the first question I have asked him, and I am sure he will not mind. I happen to be associated with the organisation which does most of the after-care work in this country, and I should like to know whether after-care is included in the

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terms of reference of the Royal Commission. It has not been stated explicitly in what has been said. Also, if they are to consider after-care, does it mean that the proposals the Government now have for the reorganisation of after-care will be posponed until after the Royal Commission has reported? I think the voluntary societies would like to know where they stand, and it is most important to them that they should know.
VISCOUNT BLAKENHAM: My Lords, in answer to my noble brother, I think I can this time give him the pleasure of a very satisfactory answer on both the points he has raised. Certainly the terms of reference are quite broad enough for the Royal Commission to take in the work of the after-care associations, if they so decide. On the second point, there would certainly be no question of there being a postponement of carrying out any decision the Government may make on the evidence that is now available to them.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am very much obliged.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, following on the question that the noble Viscount has just answered, can he give the same assurance with regard to the inquiry into the system of preventive detention? He will be aware that a Committee was appointed in January, 1961, and reported in January, 1963, and we are still awaiting the Government's decision with regard to the recommendation of that Committee to abolish the system of preventive detention. Can the noble Viscount give an assurance that this will not be held up in any way by this appointment of the Royal Commission?
VISCOUNT BLAKENHAM: My Lords, as my noble friend, I think only two days ago, indicated in answer to the noble Lord, it is hoped the Government will be able to make a statement on this matter fairly soon. Certainly the appointment of the Royal Commission will not inhibit any decision the Government may make in this matter.

HARBOURS BILL
5.0 p.m.
House again in Committee.
Clauses 20 and 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 [Powers of inspection, etc., in connection with schemes established by control of movement orders]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 6, leave out ("section 19(3)(c)") and insert ("paragraph (d) of subsection (3) of section 19").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This, also, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 11, leave out ("any such order") and insert ("such provision of such an order as has or, as the case may be, had effect by virtue of that paragraph").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 23:
Defence available to persons charged with offences under control of movement orders
23. In any proceedings for an offence consisting—

(a) in a failure to comply with a direction given, under a provision of a control of movement order having effect by virtue of paragraph (c) of subsection (3) of section 19 of this Act; or

(b) in a failure, in the case of a ship, to comply with a provision of such an order having effect by virtue of paragraph (b) of that subsection or a contravention in the case of a ship, of a prohibition imposed under a provision of such an order having effect by virtue of paragraph (d) of that subsection;

it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that he had reasonable ground for supposing that compliance with the direction, provision or prohibition in question, would be likely to imperil the ship or to prove that in the circumstances compliance with the direction, provision or prohibition in question was impracticable.
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER moved to omit all words after the end of paragraph (b), and to substitute:
"a person charged shall not be convicted unless the prosecution proves that in the circumstances compliance with the direction, provision or prohibition in question was practicable and that the person charged had no

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reasonable ground for supposing that compliance with the direction provision or prohibition in question, would be likely to imperil the ship."
The noble and learned Lord said: This deals with another one thought out by the gentlemen in the Department! It was a Member of your Lordship's House who in a famous case described as "a golden thread which runs through the whole of our criminal law" the requirement that the onus of proof is throughout on the prosecution. There are some exceptions to that, because occasionally there is some fact that it would be virtually impossible and quite unreasonable to expect the prosecution to prove. This, I suggest, is not one of them. Here is a provision that a master is to have put upon him the burden of proving his defence. This envisages a situation in which the harbour authority—and again it may be a relatively minor official—gives a direction, and the master finds himself (assuming for the moment that imprisonment remains as a possibility) in a situation in which he feels that to comply with the direction would be hazarding his ship. Here he is, in this difficult position, torn between his duty to the owners on the one hand, and the fear that unless he can persuade lay justices on what is essentially a maritime navigational question he may be sent to prison.
I do not know whether or not it is thought that there may be many of these cases. I would have submitted that a direction should not be given by an official regarding, for example, the movement of a particular ship unless he, if necessary, was able to satisfy a court that that direction could have been complied with without the master having reasonable grounds to think that to do so would be likely to imperil the ship. I suggest that such an order ought not to be given unless the authority is in a position to satisfy a court that that is so. It is quite wrong to place upon the master the onus of proving his innocence, particularly when, after all, it is essentially a question of navigation and is being decided by justices, either in petty sessions or quarter sessions, who have not necessarily themselves—any one of them—any maritime experience. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 46 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Gardiner.)
5.4 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I never take any exception at all—I should like to make that clear—to any Member of your Lordships' House or anyone raising questions with regard to the onus of proof, because I think that where there is any question of putting the onus of proof on the defence the case for doing so requires to be made out. I cannot here agree with Lord Gardiner's presentation of the matter. The charge against the master or person who failed to comply with the direction—and that will be a direction of someone controlling the movements of vessels in the harbour area—will be of failure to comply with those directions. That will be a matter which will be within the power of the prosecution to establish. That is the offence: failure to comply with the direction.
Clause 23, on the other hand, produces a special matter of defence. It provides this: that even though there be failure to comply with the directions, the man accused cannot be convicted if he shows that there was reasonable ground for supposing that compliance with the direction, provision or prohibition in question would be likely to imperil the ship, or can prove that to comply with the direction, provision or prohibition in the circumstances was impracticable. It is a matter of excuse. It is not part of the ingredient of the offence. The approach in this Bill is, in my view, right; because those matters are matters particularly within the knowledge of the person on the ship.
Really, I cannot accept the view that if there is going to be any enforcement before the courts of the provisions of a movement control order—any prosecutions at all—it should be incumbent on the person in control of movements in the harbour, who is not on the ship, who does not know what is the position on the ship, to establish beyond reasonable doubt that there was no reasonable ground for supposing that compliance would have been likely to imperil the ship and no reasonable ground for considering that the direction was impracticable. That is putting the onus

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on the prosecution of proving beyond reasonable doubt two particular negatives; and the prosecution is not likely ever to be in a position to discharge that onus.
Clause 23 provides a particular defence. As the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, knows, there are many precedents in the Statute Book of the provision of similar defences. I would remind him first of all of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887. The Larceny Act of 1916 is another quite good example. The noble Lord will remember that under Section 28 of that Act (as amended):
"Every person who shall be found by night— … having in his possession without lawful excuse (the proof whereof shall lie on such person) … any … implement of housebreaking … shall be guilty of a misdemeanour …"
It is there for the prosecution to establish that he has in his possession an implement of housebreaking; and then, because he knows better than anyone else why he has it in his possession, it is up to him to show he has a lawful excuse for having it.
There are other Acts which provide similar provisions: the Mines and Quarries Act, the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, the Children and Young Persons (Harmful Publications) Act, the Agriculture (Safety Health and Welfare Provisions) Act and the Office, Shops and Railway Premises Act, 1963. In this case I think the provision is right and should be retained in its present form.
But we must bear this in mind, too: that the burden of proof on the defendant of establishing his defence is a very different burden of proof from the burden of proof on the prosecution of establishing guilt. To establish his defence, the defendant has only to show that on the balance of probability there was this likelihood of the ship's being imperilled or that, on the balance of probability, the direction, provision or prohibition was impracticable. I need not refer the Committee to the recent judgment of the Lord Chief Justice on what must be shown; but I think that what I have said the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, will find is in accordance with what he said in the case of The Queen v. Patterson, decided in 1962. It is for those reasons that I cannot advise the Committee to accept this Amendment.
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The noble Lord, for some reason I was at a loss to understand, for the second time to-day suggested that this particular provision has been thought out by members of the Department. Quite what he meant by that I do not know. All I would say to him is this: Ministers are responsible for the Bills they present to Parliament. Their civil servants help them a great deal, but the Ministers are responsible. That responsibility is accepted by my right honourable friend, and we feel that the Bill is right in its present form.
The noble Lord made some reference to these matters being tried before justices who are laymen. We have two kinds of tribunals in this country. Sometimes the tribunals consist of experts and sometimes we have tribunals which listen to the evidence given by experts although they are not experts themselves. I do not believe that the justices, properly advised as they will be by their clerks, will have any more difficulty in adjudicating, should any case under this provision come before them, than they do in respect of other instances of criminal offences where the ingredients which have to be established by the prosection are clearly laid down and where also it is provided specifically that if certain matters can be shown by the defendant, then the defendant shall not be convicted. I believe that this provision is right and should remain in the Bill. If the noble Lord presses it to a Division, I would ask your Lordships to reject the Amendment.
LORD GARDINER: I have made my protest, and I would ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.11 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, after "imperil the ship" to insert: "or endanger the life of any person on board". The noble Lord said: I suggest that it is wrong in principle, where there is a case of dangerous illness, that the master of a ship should be faced with the alternative of either obeying the law, and possibly risking the life of his passenger, or of breaking the law and relying on the discretion of the court, as would be the case under the Bill as it is drawn. It was suggested by Her Majesty's Government in another place

613
that a master might well welcome having the decision taken out of his hands. I would say that this shows a complete lack of understanding of how a normal person would react in a crisis of this nature.
This Amendment is designed to provide for the sort of case I have just mentioned. Already this afternoon we have debated whether, under the control of movement clause, a ship would be prohibited from entering a harbour if not fitted with certain equipment. I pointed out that very few yachts are provided with V.H.F. radio control instruments, which cost something like £300, at a minimum price. It is difficult to imagine the stress of mind of the master of a ship not fitted with this equipment who, for that reason, was unable to land a seriously injured member of the crew, or perhaps it might be a yachtsman, with a desperately ill wife or child, who knew that he could not land the invalid without committing an offence. I maintain that some provision ought to be made for these circumstances, and that it is not enough for Her Majesty's Government to say that, if an offence were committed under these conditions, no prosecution would arise. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 44, after ("ship") insert ("or endanger the life of any person on board").—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD CHESHAM: I do not think that anyone would wish the life of anybody on board ship to be unnecessarily in danger, and no one would wish to be other than sympathetic with the anxiety and state of mind of the master of any ship if he had serious illness on board. But it is a question of the assessment of risks. Are we to regard it as more important not to endanger one life on board a vessel or no t to endanger many lives by refusing to allow the vessel in harbour in say, conditions of bad visibility, or when its presence and movements in the harbour are unknown to the harbour authority and also, probably, to the other vessels moving in the harbour?
I think that this risk would arise only in exceptional circumstances. It could be only in harbours for which a control of movement order had been made, and I imagine that they would not be many in number. It would apply only when
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that control was enforced, which might not be all the time, but only in conditions of low visibility or bad weather. It would apply, as the noble Lord said, only to vessels that were not equipped with V.H.F. radio or some other means of communicating with the harbour authority. It all boils down to being almost a yachting matter. That being so, I think that it would be reasonable to say that in most harbours, even with a control of movement order, the likelihood would be that it would apply only to the deep-water channel, to which control would probably be limited, and there would be an area in which craft without V.H.F. and very small craft could move without committing an offence. I think that in including these words, there is a greater risk of providing a "get-out" for the unscrupulous, who are always with us in every fold. Moreover, despite my noble friend's comment that he did not think much of this argument, I think that anyone with a genuinely serious casualty, whose life was really in danger, would find that this would be taken into account as an extenuating circumstance. I do not think that we ought to make this Amendment.
LORD TEYNHAM: I appreciate what has been said by the Minister in charge of the Bill, that control might be limited to the deep-water channel and that it would be possible for yachts in harbour to keep well clear of the deep-water channel. In that case, any loss of life is likely to be in the yacht and not in the merchant ship, should there be a collision. But in view of the noble Lord's explanation that this power may be limited to the deep-water channel, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23 agreed to.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Charges of certain harbour authorities]:
5.18 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "charges" where that word first occurs, and insert "dues". The noble Lord said: As we come to a part of the Bill which deals with harbour charges, perhaps, before I ask your Lordships to consider my first

615
batch of Amendments to Clause 25, I may make a few short general remarks about charges as they are dealt with in the Bill. First of all, I would distinguish between the charges which are called in the Bill, "Ship, passenger and goods dues" and other charges, such as those for loading and unloading vessels, warehousing, supply of water and for moorings. Under the Bill as it is now, harbour authorities will be at complete liberty to do what they like about ship, passenger and goods dues. They are free from all existing statutory restrictions or prohibitions on varying these charges, upwards or downwards, as they please. This freedom is subject only to the right given in Clause 29 to port users, or bodies that represent them, to object to a particular due, the objections to be heard by the National Ports Council.
Provision is also made in Clause 30 for the possibility of an overall review of charges in a particular port, which will be presented by the National Ports Council to the Minister, who can make an order, if he thinks fit. As for charges other than ship, passenger and goods dues, the Bill, as at present drafted, provides that these should be what the harbour authority think fit to charge. I would refer your Lordships to the closing words of Clause 25(2). The idea behind the Bill was to give harbour authorities the maximum practical freedom to adjust their charges as they thought right and proper in carrying out their duty in running their ports efficiently.
However, in another place there was strong criticism about the proposal that they should have this freedom in respect of charges other than ship, passenger and goods dues. It was argued that this would leave users much too much at the mercy of harbour authorities, sometimes when they would have no choice about using the services and facilities that those authorities provided, and, therefore, users would be worse off under the provisions of the Bill than they are at present. The reason why they would be worse off is that now the majority of charges, other than ship, passenger and goods dues, are either specified in local legislation, which means that they can be appealed against to the Minister, or subject to the requirement that they be reasonable, which means that the user who thinks he is being asked too much can take his case
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to the court. On thinking this over, the Government came to the conclusion that there was substance in these criticisms, and the Amendments I am about to move are designed to meet them.
I have to admit to your Lordships that the rather large number of Amendments in my name look formidable, but their purpose is quite straightforward. So far as ship, passenger and goods dues are concerned, then, the position remains unchanged as I have described it; but charges other than ship, passenger and goods dues will, in general, continue to be subject to the requirement that they must be reasonable. There are at the moment some such charges which are entirely at the discretion of the harbour authority, and it has been decided that these should continue on this basis. They are, however, comparatively few, and the great bulk of charges will be subject to the requirement of reasonableness. We think that this gives to harbour authorities a fair degree of freedom in charging, and at the same time protects the legitimate interests of the users. Basically, what we are trying to do is to restore the status quo about these charges, and although it has turned out to be a more complicated exercise than we expected—and this fact is reflected in the size and number of the Amendments—I can assure your Lordships that this is the effect which will be achieved if your Lordships accept the Amendments I shall be moving.
So I come to the first of these Amendments, No. 50, and the ten Amendments related to it, which are those up to and including No. 60. Their purpose is to introduce the necessary drafting changes to make Clause 25 apply to only ship, passenger and goods dues, instead of to other charges as well which, as I have just explained, will now be separately dealt with. They will in fact be dealt with in Amendment No. 61, which is a new clause for this purpose, and this I will move in a moment. At the moment I am dealing with Amendment No. 50 and the ten following and related Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 39, leave out ("charges") and insert ("dues").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 40, leave out ("making of a charge") and insert ("levying of a due").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 41, leave out ("charges to be made") and insert ("ship, passenger and goods dues chargeable").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 45, leave out ("charges to be made") and insert ("dues to be levied").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 46, leave out ("charges") and insert ("dues").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 3, leave out ("charges") and insert ("dues").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 4, leave out ("making of a charge") and insert ("levying of a due").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 5, leave out ("charges") and insert ("ship, passenger and goods dues").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 6, leave out from ("aforesaid") to end of line 8.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 25, leave out ("charges") and insert ("ship, passenger and goods dues").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 29, leave out ("charges") and insert ("dues").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM moved, after Clause 25, to insert the following new clause:
Certain charges of certain harbour authorities to be reasonable
.—(1) In place of any limitation imposed, by a statutory provision made with respect to them in particular, on the discretion of a harbour authority as to charges (of any kind other than excepted charges) that may be made by them at a harbour which, in the exercise and performance of statutory powers and duties, they are engaged in improving, maintaining or managing (not being a limitation by way of expressly providing for freedom from charges or in any other manner prohibiting the making of a charge or by way of providing, by what form of words soever, that the charges shall be such as may be reasonable), there shall, by virtue of this subsection, be imposed the limitation that the charge shall be such as may be reasonable.
(2) For the purposes of the foregoing subsection the following shall be excepted charges, namely,—

(a) ship, passenger and goods dues;

(b) charges ascribable to the running of a ferry service in or from a harbour;

(c) contributions which, by virtue of a provision included in an order under Part IV of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923 by virtue of section 38(1)(d) of that Act, fall to be assessed on several fisheries or the owners or occupiers thereof;

(d) duties on licences granted under section 61 of the said Act of 1923 to fish;

(e) charges in respect of licences under the Water Resources Act 1963 to abstract water or in respect of water authorised by such licences to be abstracted.

(3) In this section 'harbour authority' has the same meaning as in the last foregoing section.
The noble Lord said: Having removed all these charges other than those relating to ships, passengers and goods from Clause 25, we proceed to put them back again in the new clause, subject to the requirement that they shall be reasonable. I do not think there is much I need say, except that I think I ought to point out to your Lordships that subsection (3) of the clause provides that it shall not apply to the undertakings referred to in subsection (5) of Clause 25, which means broadly that it applies to the non-nationalised harbours, and the nationalised harbours are dealt with on a precisely similar basis later in the Bill under Amendment No. 80. I explained the position that the charges which have been specified or required to be reasonable would from now on all be reasonable. This new clause does exactly what I said in my explanation, so that those charges that are at present reasonable and at the discretion of the

619
authority remain so, and the status quo will thereby be preserved which I think is what is wanted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 25, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Chesham.)
LORD HOBSON: Are we to assume from the noble Lord's remarks that, whereas previously Clause 25 removed any restraint whatever on the authorities in regard to charges, and, indeed, gave them what was tantamount to complete carte blanche, we now have that limited by use of the word "reasonableness"? Is that the situation?
LORD CHESHAM: Slightly oversimplified, yes. Clause 25 originally did not give them complete carte blanche. It gave it subject to certain safeguards, which I described a few minutes ago, and I am sure the noble Lord does not want me to repeat the explanation.
LORD HOBSON: No.
LORD CHESHAM: The other charges, except the comparatively small number which always have been and continue to be at the discretion of the authorities, are subject to the limitation of reasonableness, which, of course, in any given case is a matter for the courts to decide.
LORD HOBSON: I want to assure the noble Lord that I am of far too generous a disposition to ask him to define "reasonableness".
LORD CHESHAM: That is why it goes to the courts.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26 [Repeal of provisions limiting charges at certain harbours owned or managed by nationalised transport bodies]
LORD CHESHAM: This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 3, leave out ("charges made") and insert ("ship, passenger and merchandise dues chargeable").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28 [Duty of harbour authorities to make available for inspection, and to keep for sale, copies of lists of certain charges]:
LORD CHESHAM: The next five Amendments, Nos. 63 to 67, inclusive, all hang together. They are not much more than drafting, and what they do is to line up the provisions of the Bill for both nationalised and non-nationalised harbours with regard to the matter of the publication of their charges. There is a small anomaly between the Bill and the Transport Act with regard to charges, and obviously they must all be the same. These Amendments rectify this anomaly. I beg to move No. 63.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 35, after ("exigible") insert ("(a)").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 29, line 38, after ("managing") insert ("; or
(b) by virtue of section 43 of the Transport Act 1962 by any of the Boards at a harbour specified in Schedule 9 to that Act;")
Page 30, line 6, leave out from ("exigible") to ("are") in line 8 and insert ("as mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (1) above shall be levied by, as the case may be. the harbour authority or Board concerned if, at the time at which it is exigible, the authority or Board")
Page 30, line 21, at end insert ("(other than any of the Boards)")
Page 30, line 23, after ("work") insert ("or by any of the Boards at a harbour specified in Schedule 9 to the Transport Act 1962").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29 [Right of objection to ship, passenger and goods dues]:
5.32 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved to leave out subsections (2) to (6) and to insert instead:
"(2) Before increasing any charges or imposing a new charge to which this section applies the harbour authority shall publish in such newspapers as the Council may require a notice stating—

(a) the charge which it is proposed to impose or increase and (where applicable) the amount of the increase; and

(b) that within a period of twenty-eight days from the date of the first publication

621
of the notice any person having a substantial interest or any body representative of such persons may object to the increase by giving notice to the Council accompanied by the grounds of his objection with a copy to the harbour authority.

(3) (a) If before the end of the period of twenty-eight days referred to in the last foregoing subsection notice in writing of an objection is received by the Council from any person appearing to the Council to be affected by the charge and the objection is not withdrawn, the Council shall either—

(i) cause a local inquiry to be held, or

(ii) afford to the objector and to the harbour authority an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by the Council for the purpose;

(b) subsections (2) to (5) of section 290 of the Local Government Act 1933 (which relates to the power of government departments to direct inquiries) shall apply to any inquiry held under this subsection as it applies to any inquiry held under that section and for the purposes of such application—

(i) for references to the department there shall be substituted references to the Council; and

(ii) in subsction (4) of that section the words 'either as a debt to the Crown or' shall be omitted.

(4) Where a charge has been objected to under this section the Council after effect has been given to subsections (2) and (3) above shall either—

(a) approve the charge but set a limit (not being later than the expiration of twelve months from the date on which they approve it) to the period during which the approval is to be of effect, and give to the authority written notice that they have approved it, stating the limit set; or

(b) give to the authority such direction with respect to the charge as would meet objection thereto (whether that is or is not the ground, or is or is not included amongst the grounds, on which the objection whose lodging gives rise to the proceedings is expressed to be made)."

The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to ensure that before any alteration is made by a harbour master in the charges in respect of ship, passenger or goods dues, the proposals for alterations shall be published in a newspaper and an opportunity given for an objection by the people upon whom the charges are to be levied. It can be argued that in most cases the users of harbours will be employees of large organisations, which usually retain in the various harbours concerned agents who, of course, take care keep their organisations informed of the alterations. On the other hand, I suggest, there might be many other small users who do not
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have this service and who will not know in advance what the charges are going to be. Nor will they have an opportunity of objecting to them until they have been in force for some time. That is the position.
I would point out that Parliament has supported this principle for more than a hundred years, because it is implicit in Section 30 of the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act, 1847. I should like to point out to your Lordships the difficulty of the national authority of yachting, the Royal Yachting Association, in connection with charges at ports. Hitherto, the Royal Yachting Association and its member clubs have always received notification by advertisement of any proposals for the alteration of maximum charges in harbours, as well as an opportunity to make objections and have them ventilated at local inquiries. This opportunity has been afforded to yachting interests as, of course, to all other interests concerned. Under this Bill, no notice of such an alteration is to be given. Although objections may be raised to ship, passenger and goods dues under Clause 29, local yachting clubs still may not become aware for some time of the alteration; and, in particular, it will be difficult to safeguard, to the extent that has been possible hitherto, the interests of cruising and visiting yachtsmen, or yachtsmen living some distance from the harbour. The position would be met if the Ports Council could, and would, forward a list of such charges to the national authority, the Royal Yachting Association, when they have been produced. In those circumstances, I think the matter would be in order. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 37, leave out subsections (2), (3), (4), (5), and (6) and insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD COTTESLOE: I am sorry to differ from my noble friend Lord Teynham on this Amendment. As he has said, it would require harbour authorities to give public notice of intended increases in charges. That is had enough, but it would also enable the appeal procedure to be set in operation and carried through before the increases could come into effect. That may sound very reasonable, but that would be (I am not speaking of yachts;

623
I am speaking of commercial vessels) disastrous to harbour authorities. If the opportunity is given to create substantial delay some months before increased charges can be brought into effect, it will naturally be taken advantage of constantly, and there will always be delay in bringing into effect increased charges, however urgent it may be that they should be brought in. In large ports the effect of the delay may be measured in very large sums of money.
In my opinion, this provision would have disastrous effects. The appeal procedure embodied in the Bill is already, I think, sufficiently effective and time-consuming. It may be that members of the Committee are not aware of the current procedure, which has worked well in the past and, no doubt, will be continued. When a port proposes to increase charges, the practice is to notify the traders, merchants and the harbour co-ordinating committee, which represents both merchants and shipowners, and also, in most cases, local chambers of commerce and others. A case is made out, objections are discussed, and in the enormous majority of cases, probably 99 per cent., the users, after discussion, will accept the position. If they do not wish to do so when the Bill becomes law, the appropriate body can always lodge an objection, under Clause 29, as soon as the new rates are brought into force; and certainly if they gave notice in any particular case of their intention to do so, the harbour authority would make great efforts to reach agreement. Indeed, it always does so now. I am bound to say that I hope very much that the Minister will not accept this Amendment.
LORD CHESHAM: On balance, I fear that I have to choose in favour of my noble friend Lord Cottesloe rather than my noble friend Lord Teynham. I should perhaps hasten to reassure my noble friend Lord Teynham that at least I have realised that Amendment 72 went with this one. In my view, frankly, the procedure he would like to introduce by this Amendment would be administratively burdensome and rather a clumsy one for harbour authorities. I shall say no more on that point, as I am more concerned with the fact that the Amendment is opposed to the funda-
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mental aim of the charging provisions of the Bill, which is to give harbour authorities the maximum freedom in charging and, therefore, in being able to vary charges quickly to fit changing circumstances with no more restriction than is necessary to preserve the legitimate interest of port users.
In fact, to be honest, the Amendment suggests a system of control which the Rochdale Committee condemned as inconsistent, incomplete and to a large degree no longer serving any useful purpose. Secondly, if accepted, it would give the port user an opportunity to object only when a new due is imposed or a due is increased subject to the necessary notice, and he would, therefore, as I see it, lose the rights he has at the present time and under the present provisions of the Bill, under which he can object at any time if he feels that a due is excessive.
I know that my noble friend Lord Teynham, again principally has yachting interests in mind, and I am not sure that there is not some misapprehension about this, because this clause deals only with ship, passenger and goods dues and does not, as I understand it, deal with charges for such things as moorings, which must be a major interest to that community. Therefore, I do not think that in any case it does entirely what the noble Lord wants it to do. But I take the point that what the noble Lord and the interests he has in mind are principally concerned with, is getting notice of what is likely to happen. I understand that this difficulty of theirs has been referred to the National Ports Council, and I am sure I am right in saying that the Council will consider sympathetically advising some means whereby the yachting interests will receive the information they want about charges in the main yachting ports. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend Lord Teynham can perhaps be content with my explanation.
LORD TEYNHAM: I appreciate what has been said by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill. He says that the National Ports Council will perhaps look at this matter in a sympathetic way. Of course, personally, I should like to see a direction to the Ports Council. I should like to look at this matter again before

625
the Report stage, and in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.45 p.m.
LORD HOBSON LORD HOBSON moved, after subsection (5), to insert:
"(6) If, where written objection is made to a charge under subsection (2) above, the Council are satisfied that under the circumstances then existing it is proper so to do, they may when considering the charge the subject of the objection also consider all or any of the other charges imposed by the authority to which this section applies:
Provided that the Council shall not proceed to consider any such other charges except after consultation with the authority and such other persons, or bodies representative of such other persons, appearing to the Council to have a substantial interest."
The noble Lord said: I think probably it would be an advantage if I addressed my remarks to the three Amendments which are inter-related, and certainly I think this would make my task infinitely easier. In practice, all anybody can do with regard to charges in this Bill is to raise an objection against the National Ports Council, and then, presumably, the Council considers the charges and can either eliminate them, confirm them or lower them pro rata. Our Amendment seeks to deal with the narrow but important point that the Council's order or direction is confined to the particular charge to which the objection refers.
In practice, where, say, a tariff which applies to particular goods in transit is going to be reduced, the Ports Council can effect that reduction. But there is a dilemma as the Bill now stands. Take a hypothetical case of the importation of iron ore. Let us say that a ton of iron ore is imported and the charge is 20s. One would presume that for a half ton the charge would be 10s., and for a quarter ton 5s. But at present, as the Bill stands, the Ports Council could make the charge for a half ton 11s. instead of 10., and, likewise, for a quarter ton 6s. instead of 5s. In other words, at the present moment the price may be reduced or increased for a given quantity, but when it comes to a proportion of that quantity there is nothing to prevent the Board from not effecting a pro rata reduction, and that is what we seek to deal with.
I think your Lordships will agree that the situation to which I have referred
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would be rather unfair. Therefore, there should be opportunity with regard to quantity to have pro rata reductions in the port charges. At the present time this cannot be done, and this is what these Amendments seek to provide for. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 6, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Hobson.)
LORD COTTESLOE: I am sorry to be opposing an Amendment brought forward by the noble Lords, but this also is an Amendment with which I find myself unable to agree. The effects of this Amendment, and, indeed, I think its object, would be that where a single objection to a rate was made the Council could extend their consideration of the appeal to any or all other rates. The result of that could be, though would not necessarily be, to produce an overall reassessment of rates by the Council under the Clause 29 procedure without any appeal to the Minister, so that the Council could in fact do under Clause 29 what the Minister is empowered to do under Clause 30.
I think it may be that the proposers of this Amendment are not really informed about the way in which rates are fixed and how the appeal procedure is likely to work. There are two cases. The first is an appeal against the whole rate schedule, and that is the case that gives rise to no particular difficulty. The second is an appeal against a single rate on the grounds that it is incorrectly related to other rates, and that is the case that is particularly involved here.
When an objection of that kind is notified, people who deal in analogous or competitive commodities will of course come along and say, "If this rate is to be brought down, this or that other rate ought to follow". In fact, the port authorities themselves, who are naturally anxious to preserve a proper relationship between their customers, may on occasion, and do on occasion, put forward proposals of that kind, and that can be done within the procedure laid down in Clause 29; it is, I believe, one of the objects of all the notices and the consultations. It seems to me that there is really no ground whatever for the Council, who will not have the detailed knowledge for the purpose, to try, off their own bat, to

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extend the scope of any rate adjustment that is asked for. I hope your Lordships will not approve this Amendment.
LORD CHESHAM: I was glad to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Hobson, what was in his mind as the object of these Amendments. Up till then, I was not quite sure what was his underlying purpose, because I could not believe that it was really what it is my duty now to explain would be the effect of these Amendments. Therefore, I was pleased to know what it really was; and it was, as I had expected, a reasonable kind of proposition. I do not think I need go ino great detail. I should have thought that the safeguards built into the Bill for objection by any port user to any due gave the necessary protection which the noble Lord seeks. After all, the right of objection to the Ports Council to a given due does not mean that the right of objection is confined to just one due. Therefore, in objecting to one you may also object to another, and there is nothing then to stop the Ports Council from considering the other dues that are charged in that port. I think that is right.
But I consider it is wrong to go further and give them the power not only to consider all the other dues in the port but to come to a decision on them, as well as any decision they may come to on the one due which has been objected to. I think it is too much, on the objection to one due, to give them the power to act on all the others. As I say, there may be cases where it is a good idea for the Council to consider other dues when they are considering the objection to one, but I equally think there will probably be a number of occasions when one objection can be considered in isolation. The effect of these Amendments would be that the Council could, without the agreement of the port authority or of the Minister, without reference to anybody, introduce any changes they wished, either upwards or downwards, in any of the dues imposed by the harbour authority, once an objection had been lodged to one due. In considering the rate for, as the noble Lord mentioned, iron ore, they could consider that and could also consider the rate for bananas and motor cars and everything else in the port, and they could change them all.
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That is not really the end of the story, because they would then be in a position, under these Amendments, to fix dues on everything, even where there has been no objection to any of them; they could change them all and fix them without any possibility of appeal. That upward or downward revision could extend over the entire range of that port's rates. That would, to say the least, create a very undesirable overlap with the powers of the Council under Clause 30 to propose to the Minister, for his approval, general revision of the dues. I do not think it would be at all consistent with the intention of the Bill to give the harbour authorities a fair measure of freedom to fix their dues. The noble Lord must also remember that if the Council used those powers in that way it would effect a freezing of dues for a period of up to one year. I think he will accept from me that it would be much better to carry out the overall revision according to the procedure in Clause 30 and not as a by-product of an objection to a single due under Clause 29. That is all I have to say, and I wait to hear whether the noble Lord thinks my argument is reasonable.
LORD HOBSON: I thank the noble Lord for that explanation, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 29 agreed to.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, after Clause 29, to insert the following new clause
Power of Minister to vary notices or directions given by Council under section 29
.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, where the Council, by virtue of section 29 of this Act, approve a charge imposed at a harbour and, after notice of such approval has been published by the Council in pursuance of the said section, a representation is made to the Minister that the charge so approved was imposed by the harbour authority at the instance of the Council, or by agreement between them and the authority, the Minister may give a direction requiring the Council to give to the authority such different notice or direction, within the terms of the said section, as the Minister thinks fit, and the Council shall comply with the direction.
(2) The Minister shall not give a direction under the foregoing subsection unless—

(a) the representation mentioned therein in made to him within a period of twenty-eight days from the date of publication by

629
the Council of their approval of the charge which is the subject of the representation;

(b) the representation is made to him by a person or body who lodged with the Council, in pursuance of the said section 29, an objection to the charge as subsequently approved by the Council; and

(c) he is satisfied that the said charge was imposed by the harbour authority in the circumstances referred to in the foreging subsection."

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is designed to cover a case where the National Ports Council might instruct a harbour authority to impose a charge or agree with them that it should be imposed. As the Bill is drawn at present, the only appeal against such a charge would be to the National Ports Council themselves, who would thus become judge in their own case, and this Amendment would allow an appeal to be made to the Minister. At present ship, passenger, and goods dues are subject to fixed maxima and can be revised, either by application to Parliament by Private Bill or to the Minister of Transport. Under this Bill the National Ports Council would be able to apply to the Minister for a revision of charges levied by a harbour authority, but users would be excluded from doing so. Surely it is wrong that the Council should be the final arbiter in a case which has arisen possibly at the instigation of the Council itself, all the more so since the decision of the Council could be given without even an inquiry being held into the objection.
I should like to point out that owing to the rather involved nature of the clauses in this Bill dealing with harbour authorities it is difficult to draft a self-contained Amendment without tackling a very large number of consequential Amendments. I hope Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to accept the principle and will themselves set down the necessary Amendments on the Report stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 29 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Teynham.)
6.0 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: I might as well tell my noble friend straight away that I cannot respond to his beguiling invitation to accept this clause and do all the rest of the work myself. This clause, complicated as it is and even without
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any question of the necessary consequential Amendments, unsuitable as it is in its wording, in fact cuts across what has all the way through been the clearly designed policy in the Bill: that the National Ports Council should be the final arbiter of objections made by users to ship, passenger and goods dues under Clause 29.
it is possible to conceive some circumstances in which the Council might be the objector. I confess that they do not come freely to my mind, and I do not see the Council as judge and jury in their own case. But what I do see out of this is something that has been the subject of more than one attempt (in fact, two in another place—and this I think is the third one, with a slightly different approach) to get some kind of right of appeal to the Minister.
I imagine that those who seek this right of appeal, whether by frontal attack, or—I will not call it by the back door, but by the side door, must perhaps fear that the Council, who we know will have close links, as they are supposed to have, with the port authorities, presumably may be biased against the port users in their decision. This seems to assume that the Council will not be a body responsible enough to be fully objective in their decisions on objections. Quite frankly, that is an assumption that I should be most reluctant to make. The Amendment also tends to ignore the procedure in Clause 29, for dealing with objections, with the provisions for advertisement. While what the noble Lord said is true—that the Council are not obliged to hold an inquiry—I feel that it would be most unlikely that they would not do so in any important case of objection.
I know that the Minister is involved (this is the only time that he is on these charging matters) when an overall revision plan is put to him under Clause 30. But any extension under Clause 29 is undesirable, because I believe that this should be a matter within the ports industry which, after all, it is our aim to make as fully independent and commercially-minded as we can. I do not think that there is any case for giving this right of appeal to the Minister, now that the industry has virtual freedom from statutory control, which of course it used to have in full measure when it was much more appropriate that it

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should go to the Minister. I think that the set-up will be much better, and will work better, if we leave the Bill as it is.
LORD SHACKLETON: We accept the need to avoid undue complications. What concerns me a little, in trying to think of an analogy for this particular situation is that I cannot think of one, and I am wondering whether the noble Lord can help us. In regard to other transport fields, such as the railways, bodies that deal with railway rates are not themselves directed involved in any way in management, or in exercising influence over the conduct of a particular undertaking; and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Teynham is on to a point here.
It is difficult to see how it would work out. There is clearly a possibility of conflict between the Ports Council and an individual authority, and there may be a time when, so to speak, they are the two parties to a dispute. This is liable to happen in any situation. But I am wondering whether some sort of appeal procedure, perhaps with rather more obstacles to it than are contained in this Amendment, might be appropriate. I should be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary could indicate whether there is any parallel to this, or whether he regards the National Ports Council as merely on all fours with any other rate-fixing body, and whether there are other circumstances in which an appeal to the Minister is allowed. I think this is a special case, and one to which I should have thought it was worth giving a little more consideration than we have had.
LORD CHESHAM: I will be quite frank with the noble Lord. I cannot immediately call to mind any comparable case—though that does not mean there is not one. If, in due course, I can think of something, certainly I will let him know, if necessary by letter. But off-hand, I cannot. Perhaps I did not make myself as clear as I should have done. We took the view—and still hold to it—that the Council will be a responsible body, independent and, furthermore, able to take a quasi-judicial role in adjudicating upon this question of dues. As I said, it is our policy to do everything possible to encourage and establish full independence of the ports,
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and indeed of the Council. I think that if one is again to take this power away finally from the Council in the way that has been envisaged, and give it back to the Minister, it will detract from that conception of independence for the industry.
LORD SILKIN: There is nothing new in the conception of an appeal against the decision of a tribunal, and it certainly is not derogatory to the body making the original decision that there should be a right of appeal. After all, there is an appeal from a High Court Judge to the Court of Appeal, and from the Court of Appeal to the House of Lords; and nobody thinks any the less of the High Court Judges or of the Lords Justices of Appeal because of that fact. Moreover, the noble Lord may remember that a Committee—the Franks Committee—was set up some years ago to consider this question of appeals against decisions of tribunals. That Committee recommended strongly that wherever possible there should be a right of appeal from the decision of a body of this kind. However eminent this body may be (and I do not challenge the fact that the Government will seek to set up as eminent a body as possible), they may go wrong in their findings, and the person who is the subject of those findings ought to have an opportunity of presenting his case to the Minister.
I cannot see what the objection to the Amendment can be and I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to consider this. He says that the wording is defective. I am quite prepared to believe that. I have never known an Amendment put down by a private Member that was in perfect order. But I think he ought to be prepared to reconsider the principle of an appeal against the decision of this Council. I hope he will.
LORD CHESHAM: When I hear that kind of argument presented to me I feel I should be rather dim-witted not to accede to it. I am certainly prepared to look at it again, provided your Lordships understand that I am undertaking no commitment as to what I may find—that I am not looking into it with a view to putting down an Amendment of some kind. I may do no more than confirm the feelings that I have to-day. If it appears to be the wish of the Committee, I will certainly undertake to look at this point again.
LORD SHACKLETON: I am sure we are all very grateful to the Minister. Would he at the same time consider how this rate fixing, so to speak, is going to be done? A great deal of this sort of thing is done by a semi-judicial tribunal. It rather looks as if at some stage there is going to be almost a semi-judicial function here, and I find it a little difficult to see, from the background of the constitution of the Council, how they are going to discharge it. If it is a matter of sending experts in and coming to a conclusion, that is straightforward, but once they act in a judicial rôle conceivably some slightly more formal procedure is necessary. Interested parties in other rate-fixing episodes are able to call counsel, and so on. I do not know whether the Ports Council will work like this.
It may all go very well, but I am sure that all Members of the Committee are with my noble friend Lord Silkin in saying that we must be alert to the possibility of oppression by tribunals. This is one of the weaker points. In the absence of the sort of appeal procedures which exist in other countries—and there is no question of an appeal to the courts in a matter of this kind, and there is no Ombudsman to refer to—I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, will look at this matter carefully. We are grateful to him. I do not ask him to say anything more, because he has come a long way to meet the point, and I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, on raising it.
LORD CHESHAM: The noble Lord need have no fears about the methods of work of the Council, because they will have to work closely with the port in-industry in any case. The situation will be such that they will naturally proceed in the kind of manner he mentions, particularly as it is not up to them to do the original rate fixing, as the noble Lord calls it, but only to hear objections against it. On the subject of oppression by tribunals—and nobody wishes anyone to be oppressed by a tribunal—there is the fact that this matter of charges is their sole executive function. It is their sole "tooth" and they have been supplied with it simply because they seem so outstandingly able a body to do the job. Having said that, I will say no more
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pending consideration of what has been said to-day.
LORD TEYNHAM: I am sure that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will take note of the fact that there has been a good deal of support here for a right of appeal to the Minister to be embodied in the Bill. At any rate, he has said that he will look at the matter again, and no doubt we shall be able to return to it on Report stage. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30 [Power of Minister to revise ship, passenger and goods dues at harbours other than fishery harbours or marine works]:
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 45, after ("confirmed") insert ("in the form in which it is confirmed").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 31 agreed to.
Clause 32 [Provisions supplementary to sections 29 to 31]:
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is also a drafting one. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 28, after ("of") insert ("the operation of").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This, again, is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 39, line 44, leave out from ("charge") to ("shall") in line 45 and insert ("the suspension").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 33 [Application of sections 29, 30 and 32 to local light dues]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 40, after ("32(1)") insert ("and (2)").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This, again, is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, leave out lines 1 to 7.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 34 agreed to.
Clause 35 [Exclusion of certain charges from section 25]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is merely consequential on the "reasonable charges" Amendments. The clause is now redundant and can be deleted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 21, leave out Clause 35.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36 [Special provisions with respect to certain aviation charges]:
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 8, at end insert ("(Certain charges of certain harbour authorities to be reasonable) and").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 37 [Repeal of sections 30 and 47 of Harbours, Docks, and Piers Clauses Act 1847]:
LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM moved to leave out Clause 37 and insert the following new clause:
Repeal of sections 30 and 47 of Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 and certain other provisions as to charges.
".—(1) The following provisions shall cease to have effect, namely,—

(a) sections 30 (power to vary rates) and 47 (list of rates to be set up) of the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 (both as originally enacted and as incorporated in any Act or order);

(b) any statutory provision (other than the said section 47 or one in this Act) applying to a harbour authority in so far as (however it is expressed) it requires a list of charges imposed by the authority in the exercise of their powers as such to be published;

(c) section 17 (rates to be equally levied) of the General Pier and Harbour Act 1861 Amendment Act and any other statutory provision applying to a harbour authority in so far as (however it is expressed) it prohibits the authority from discriminating
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in the matter of charges imposed as aforesaid against any person in favour of any other person.

(2) In the foregoing subsection 'harbour authority' does not include any such person as is mentioned in section 25(5)(c) of this Act.
(3) The Shipping Dues Exemption Act 1867 (which precludes the according of certain exemptions from shipping dues and empowers the Minister to abolish dues from which an exemption exists) is hereby repealed."
The noble Lord said: I think I ought to say a word on this, since the Amendment itself is so long. The matter is reasonably simple. As at present drafted, Clause 37 provides that Sections 30 and 47 of the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act, 1847, shall cease to have effect, but certain harbour authorities do not incorporate the provisions of that Act in their local legislation but have provisions of like effect in their local legislation. Therefore, the clause needs to be revised to cover comparable provisions to those two sections. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 37 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 38 [Amendments of Acts consequential on sections 25 to 37]:
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential and drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 25, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) For paragraph 5 of Schedule 9 to the Transport Act 1962 there shall be substituted the following paragraph:—
'5.—(1) The charges made by any of the Boards for the use of services or facilities provided in, or in connection with, a harbour specified in this Schedule (other than ship, passenger and goods dues, charges for the carriage of goods or passengers, charges for the use of a railway or charges in respect of railway wagons) shall be such as may be reasonable.
(2) In this paragraph the expression "ship, passenger and goods dues" has the meaning assigned to it by section 55(1) of the Harbours Act 1964';
and in paragraph 6(2) of that Schedule for the words 'for which the charges are regulated by' there shall be substituted the words 'specified in'.").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This, also, is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 46, at end insert—
("(5) In section 23 of the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act 1937 the words ' Part III of ' shall be omitted.").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM moved, after Clause 38, to insert the following new clause:
Harbour services and facilities provided by certain harbour authorities
".—(1) A. harbour authority shall have power to make the use of services and facilities provided by them at a harbour which, in the exercise and performance of statutory powers and duties, they are engaged in improving, maintaining or managing subject to such terms and conditions as they think fit except with respect to charges as to which their discretion is limited by a statutory provision (whether by specifying, or providing for specifying, charges to be made, or fixing or providing for fixing charges, or otherwise).
(2) In this section 'harbour authority' has the same meaning as in section 25 of this Act."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential and drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 38, insert the said new clause. —(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 39 and 40 agreed to.
6.20 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE LORD MERRIVALE moved, after Clause 40, to insert the following new clause:
Exclusion of certain harbours from application of certain provisions of Act
". In any case in which the Minister is satisfied that the interests of a particular trade or industry are being adversely affected by the application to any harbour, used wholly or mainly for the purposes of that trade or industry, of any of the provisions of this Act, he may on application being made to him, by order (made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament) direct that such provisions or any of them shall not apply in relation to such harbour or shall apply thereto subject to such modifications as may be specified in such order."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to enable the Minister, on an application being made to him, to consider the interests of a
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particular industry or trade at ports wholly or mainly used by such an industry or trade. I have particularly in mind some of the 300-odd minor ports of varying size and importance which are to be found around the coasts of this country, and which provide, in the words of the Rochdale Committee Report:
"an important service for particular industries".
Here I would stress to your Lordships, as I mentioned on Second Reading, that the small port members of the Dock and Harbour Authorities Association were never consulted by the Rochdale Committee; nor were they ever asked to submit evidence. I would mention, too, that one of the recommendations of the Committee was that:
"Minor ports should in general be maintained only if they are financially self-supporting"
Well and good, but I feel that the Minister should also have a permissive power to consider the interests of an industry or trade mainly served by a specific port. May I also remind your Lordships of paragraph 66 in the Report, which says:
"Many of the minor ports play a very important rôle in the country's coasting and short sea trade. Indeed, they sometimes offer better and cheaper facilities even to oceangoing ships than do the major ports."
Such better and cheaper facilities could —and I stress the word "could"—be impaired by certain provisions of the Bill: for instance, Clauses 9, 18(2)(e) and 30 which, again, could be to the detriment of the competitiveness of an industry or trade in the export markets of the world.
LORD SHACKLETON: May I interrupt the noble Lord? He seems to be speaking on behalf of a number of small ports, but the clause as it is drafted seems to follow very closely his earlier Amendment which he said was confined entirely to the port of Par. Would he exemplify these other ports which are used wholly or mainly for the purposes of trade or industry?
LORD MERRIVALE: I was coming to that. There are other ports which I had in mind, and although the port of Par would be included in this Amendment, I am not referring to that to-day. I was going on to say that any increase in port charges or ship and goods dues

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could limit an industry's ability to compete abroad.
I now come to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and will consider specific industries and ports other than the Port of Par. For instance, the port of Workington in the North-West region handles mainly the traffic of adjacent iron and steel works, exporting pig iron and steel and importing iron ore. The port of Blythe in the North-Eastern region owes its existence to the coal mining of the district. Maryport is another coal exporting port. Hartlepool sends out Durham coal and imports iron ore. I would also mention Port Talbot, near Swansea, with very large local iron exports.
In moving this Amendment, I trust that I may be fortified by certain remarks which the noble Viscount, Lord Rochdale, made on Second Reading. I trust that I am entitled to quote his exact words [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 256 (No. 55), col. 1180]:
"What we were trying to do was to control major development, which is, after all, the major matter that affects the port industry as a whole; and, provided that we had control to be able to say where the major development was to be, it did not really seem to us to matter what the little ports did, as long as they did not get swelled heads".
I am fairly confident that neither the industries nor the small ports to which I have referred have any swelled heads.
With regard to the steel industry, for instance, as one of the conclusions of the Report is that all terminal development should, in the main, be financed and undertaken by the industry itself, is it not right that such an industry should have the power to apply to the Minister if such a need ever arose? It may well be that such a power would not be necessary. It is only a permissive power for which I am asking your Lordships' approval. Coal is still considered an important cargo, especially for some ports. One could go on with regard to these points. I agree with your Lordships that this is purely a permissive power which may never be required, but I feel that it would benefit some industries if ever the need arose. In these circumstances, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 40, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Merrivale.)
VISCOUNT FALMOUTH: I should like to support this Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, has moved so eloquently. I must say that I am speaking as a Cornishman about the port of Par, but I know that we are not separatists in Cornwall as perhaps the noble Lord might suggest. I am interested in this port myself as chairman of companies which run clay works and export through this port. We fear that development could be frustrated by powers under this Bill, and we also fear that under Clause 20 increases in charges could be made by the authority. Our great advantage in Cornwall lies in the fact that the sea is only six miles away from the best clay formations. This is of enormous help in competing in the export markets of the world, and we fear very much any interference which means that our transport costs are increased. I would ask Her Majesty's Government to give this Amendment most careful consideration.
LORD CHESHAM: In dealing with an Amendment he moved last Monday, I said to my noble friend Lord Merrivale that he was shooting holes in one of the basic principles of the Bill, which it is of the greatest possible importance to preserve. Having accepted that I did not like his shooting holes in the basic principle, he has gone off and brought back a dirty great cannon and tried to blow the principle completely to smithereens. Whether or not the noble Lord is right in thinking that the proposed power in this Amendment is permissive, it is certainly technically permissive—but, my goodness!, you wait for the pressure that is going to build up under this permission. One successful application and the floodgates would be straining at the seams, if not actually bursting.
I think the Rochdale Committee regarded it as most important that the private ports, the one-industry ports, and so on, should remain within the scope of the Bill, because the noble Lord was perfectly right when he said that he was not talking only about Par when he moved this Amendment. He has brought in the crude oil terminals which belong to the oil companies, and he has brought in Fawley. Yes, the noble Lord has; it is no good his shaking his head.
LORD MERRIVALE: Not to-day.
LORD CHESHAM: In this Amendment.
LORD MERRIVALE: Yes.
LORD CHESHAM: He has not mentioned them to-day. I did not say he had mentioned them, but he has brought them in by means of this Amendment, and it applies to Milford Haven and Fawley. This shoots the biggest hole in the most valuable principle of the Bill. I will not go so far as to call it a wrecking Amendment, because I am sure it is not—
LORD HOBSON: It is worse.
LORD CHESHAM:—but it is really, I am afraid, totally and utterly unacceptable.
LORD MERRIVALE: I thank my noble friend for those remarks. I could not ever imagine that anything which the National Ports Council did could adversely affect the power of the petroleum industry.
LORD CHESHAM: If I may interrupt, in reply to my noble friend behind me I would say that I cannot think of anything it would do to the detriment of the port of Par, either.
LORD MERRIVALE: I thank my noble friend for his remarks in reply to this Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 41 and 42 agreed to.
Clause 43 [Penalisation of furnishing false information]:
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 25, after ("section") insert ("4 or")—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 44 [Restriction on disclosing information]
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential, and I shall say no more except to observe to your Lordships that it picks up completely the point which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, made the other night about commercial confidence and security. If the noble Lord will have a quick look at
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Clause 44, on page 50, he will see that the point he raised is most adequately covered. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 40, after ("section") insert ("4 or").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 45 to 50 agreed to.
Clause 51 [Saving for telegraphic lines]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 36, leave out ("exercise") and insert ("execution").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 51, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 52:
Orders and regulations
52.—
(2) A statutory instrument containing an order under section 4, 9(1), 18(7), 19 or 58 of this Act or regulations under section 22 or 40 thereof shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
LORD COTTESLOE LORD COTTESLOE moved, in subsection (2), after "19" to insert "30". The noble Lord said: This Amendment is, I think, the shortest of the 108 on the Marshalled List, but it is certainly not the least important. The Amendment refers to Clause 30. Under that clause, the Minister takes power to confirm by order a scheme for the revision of ship, passenger or goods dues, overriding, on the advice of the National Ports Council, the judgment of the port authority concerned. That is a very strong power, and one that could be justified only in exceptional circumstances. After all, the port authority is responsible for the finances of the port generally, and for ensuring that it pays its way and gives a service to the public at the most economic cost. That its charges should be overridden by someone with no responsibility for its results is a very strong order. It might in some circumstances be justified, but I think very rarely.
If my understanding is correct, it is envisaged that such a power would be exercised, if it is exercised at all, not for the purpose of reducing the dues

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charged but for the purpose of increasing them, where the National Ports Council consider them to be inadequate and the Minister endorses that view. It is evident that an exceptional power of that kind ought not to be exercised without the fullest inquiry. That is provided for in the Bill, but it seems to me also that it is most desirable that such a power should be treated in the same way as the exceptional powers in other clauses of the Bill, which under Clause 52(2) are made subject to the Negative Resolution procedure. Such clauses are, among others, Clause 9(1), which gives the power by order to control harbour development; and Clause 19, with power to order control of movement. Those are very exceptional powers, and the powers in Clause 30 are also very exceptional. I hope that the Minister will be willing to accept this Amendment and agree to the inclusion of the exceptional powers given him under Clause 30 among those that are made subject to the Negative Resolution procedure. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 44, after ("19") insert ("30").—(Lord Cottesloe.)
LORD CHESHAM: I must say that I should not like to accept my noble friend's suggestion. Incidentally, I thought I understood him to say that the Minister's powers of revision in this case related only to revision upwards. That is certainly news to me.
LORD COTTESLOE: If I may correct the noble Lord, that was not, I think, what I said. What I said was that my understanding was that it was likely to be exercised in that way, rather than in the other.
LORD CHESHAM: That is a matter of guesswork. Things nowadays tend to go up more than down, I agree; but I should not like the impression to get around that revision can be only upwards; because it can, of course, be upwards or downwards. Neither do I entirely agree that this is an exceptional power. It is a power, or something very like it, which the Minister has had for some time under Section 6 of the Transport Charges, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1954, which provides that a non-nationalised harbour authority or
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port user may apply to the Minister for the revision of any of the charges which the undertaking is authorised to levy, and the Minister's power to make an order to that effect has not been subject to the Negative Resolution procedure. He had similar powers, under Section 51 of the Transport Act, 1962, in relation to the nationalised ports. And that power, too, is not subject to the Negative Resolution procedure. I know that if one wants to be strictly accurate one could say that those powers are not exactly on all fours with what is in the Bill; but they are pretty wide. They have never been subject to the Negative Resolution procedure, and I do not see the real force of the argument that they should be so now.
But I have another point. A scheme under Clause 30 could relate either to a lot of dues or to one or to very few. The factors the Minister will have to take into consideration will be matters of very considerable detail, such as the validity of financial estimates of revenue and expenditure, whether or not proper provision is made for depreciation, and the viability of proposed expenditure by the authority. I do not think the Minister is really going to get bound up with any matters of broad policy. These schemes, where the decision will usually depend on detailed judgments on sets of figures, are not really such as should be before Parliament.
I very much doubt whether any proposal under Clause 30 is likely to be other than contentious, and I consider it unlikely that the Minister will decide on the matter without a public inquiry. I think there will be every opportunity in an inquiry like that to ventilate every aspect of the case which would be subject to examination and cross-examination. The whole matter would be considered and reported on by the inspector. I think that this is a better way of dealing with such detailed matter than by throwing it back at Parliament; and I hope the Committee will agree to leave the Bill alone in that respect.
LORD COTTESLOE: I am sorry that the Minister is unable to see his way to accepting this Amendment, and I am bound to say I am not greatly surprised. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD CHESHAM: This is a consequential Amendment; but I ought quickly to point out that the Amendment does not actually consist of the words on the Paper. That is the reference to an Amendment earlier made, and at the moment of printing it was not known what the appropriate number would be. That will be reprinted in the draft.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 44, at end insert ("(Compensation for loss of office, &c. in consequence of orders and schemes)").—(Lord Chesham.)
Clause 52, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 53 and 54 agreed to.
Clause 55 [Interpretation]:
LORD BURDEN: This Amendment and the next one have been put on the Order Paper following a discussion in the Committee stage in another place. At that time it was argued that the definition contained in the clause was too widely drawn. At that stage the Minister considered that if a form of words could be agreed upon with the Dock and Harbour Authorities' Association an Amendment could be put down at a later stage. I understand that these Amendments have been agreed to, and in the circumstances I beg to move the first.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 43, after ("harbour") insert ("(but not including charges in respect of any services rendered or facilities provided for them)").—(Lord Burden.)
LORD CHESHAM: These Amendments are rather more than drafting; they are for clarification. I do not know whether they have been agreed to, but I hope they will be now.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BURDEN: I was endeavouring to get through quickly. I should have said the Amendments, according to my information, were agreed to by the Association and the Minister. That, I hope, will put me right with the Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 44, leave out paragraph (c)> and insert—
("(c) charges in respect of goods brought into, taken out of, or carried through the harbour by ship (but not including charges in respect of work performed, services rendered or facilities provided in respect of goods so brought, taken or carried)").—(Lord Burden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 62, line 29, at end insert—
("(4) Any reference in this Act (elsewhere than in the foregoing provisions of this section or in section 38) to ship, passenger and goods dues shall be construed as including a reference to charges payable by persons using a ferry which is a marine work.")—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 55, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
6.47 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: Could my noble friend define the meaning of harbour land, which in the Bill is said to mean
"land adjacent to a harbour and occupied wholly or mainly for the purposes of activities there carried on;"?
What exactly is meant by "adjacent"? And what are the activities to be carried on there? Also, as this definition seems to be widely drawn, could he say whether the National Ports Council will have any jurisdiction over firms involved in manufacturing processes on that land? In other words, would manufacturing premises come under the provisions of this Bill? Surely such manufacturing should not come within the definition of "harbour operations". It could involve some small firms or some of the poorer members of the National Association of British Manufacturers in expensive litigation which some of them could ill afford.
Secondly, with respect to the handling of goods on harbour land, which comes under the definition of harbour operations, am I right in assuming that in the event of any redundancy occurring due to a reorganisation scheme under Clause 18, men who are employed on manufacturing processes could still be employed for the handling of goods or the unloading of ships, as I understand is now the practice?
LORD CHESHAM: My noble friend has asked one of his famous multiple questions on a number of subjects. I am afraid I have not managed to follow it all in my head. But on his query over harbour land, I would say that I do not see how I can be expected to define the activities there carried on. I suspect that he has mistakenly applied the word "there" to the land and not to the harbour. If you apply it to the

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harbour, it makes the whole thing very much clearer. The second query, as I recall, was to do with firms operating in the harbour area. Of course they are not included.
LORD MERRIVALE: This is not an important point, but the Association of British Manufacturers are concerned about it. I may take it, then, that the premises of firms interested purely in manufacturing process, manufacturing firms, would not come under the jurisdiction and provisions of this Bill, or under the jurisdiction of the National Ports Council.
LORD CHESHAM: No, they would not. They would have the normal relationship with the harbour authority if they rent premises or something of that kind, but so far as what I may call private organisations and individuals in those circumstances are concerned, these provisions slip over their heads.
LORD MERRIVALE: I am very glad of that assurance.
Clause 55, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 56 to 60 agreed to.
Clause 61 [Short title, extent, repeal and commencement]:
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 64, line 16, after ("38") insert (",(Certain charges of certain harbour authorities to be reasonable) and (Harbour services and facilities provided by certain harbour authorities)").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Objects for whose achievement harbour revision orders may be made]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 67, line 3, after ("them") insert ("for the purpose of its being used").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 67, line 4, at end insert ("or for some other purpose of the harbour").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 67, line 18, at end insert—
("10A. Empowering the authority to levy at the harbour charges other than ship, passenger and goods dues or varying or abolishing charges (other than as aforesaid) levied by them at the harbour").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Procedure for making harbour revision and empowerment orders]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 43, after ("he") insert ("unless all persons interested consent,").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Submission and confirmation of harbour reorganisation schemes]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 82, line 35, leave out ("who") and insert ("that").—(Lord Chesham.)
LORD COTTESLOE: These are drafting Amendments, of course, but I think that we should all agree that "them who" in this Amendment and "they who" in the next Amendment are unsuitable. If we are going to alter them, as we should, I hope that we shall not alter them to read "them that", which is a particularly ungainly and ugly phrase. Cannot we alter the "them" to "who", which would be the correct phrase and would have exactly the same meaning?
LORD GARDINER: I was going to ask the noble Lord which language this was, because obviously it did not seem to be English.
LORD CHESHAM: I must confess to a fault here, in that, as your Lordships will not be surprised, having discovered that this was a drafting Amendment, I

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did not actually check it on a grammatical basis. I feel that I should apologise to your Lordships for that. In view of what has been said, I had better look at it again. Perhaps the Amendment can be made as it is at the present time, subject to putting down another one, if it is required.
LORD COTTESLOE: I thank the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is also a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 82, line 38, leave out ("they who") and insert ("them that").—(Lord Chesham.)
LORD CONESFORD: I take it that the noble Lord's undertaking applies also to this Amendment.
LORD CHESHAM: It is intended to apply to both.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 5 agreed to.
Schedule 6 [Enactments repealed]:
LORD CHESHAM: This is a tidying Amendment, to repeal the provisions that no longer apply. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 3, at end insert—

("24 & l25 Vict. c. 47.

The Harbours and Passing Tolls, &c., Act 1861.

In section 2 the definition of 'differential dues.'

Sections 10, 14, 15 and 16.

25 & 26 Vict. c. 19.

The General Pier and Harbour Act 1861 Amendment Act.

Section 17.

30 & 31 Vict. c. 15.

The Shipping Dues Exemption Act 1867.

The whole Act.")

—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 9, column 3, leave out line 9 and insert—("Section 12.
In Section 23, the words ' Part III of ' Section 25.")—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 12, column 3, leave out line 12 and insert—
("In section 6(1), paragraphs (a) and (e), and in paragraph (c) the words 'Part III of'.")—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 26, leave out from ("in") to ("and") in line 28 and insert ("subsection (2), the words from 'but shall not give preference' onwards").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential and drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 33, column 3, at end insert ("In section 50, in subsection (1), the word 'port', and subsection (3)").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 45, after ("at") insert ("where first occurring").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 52, leave out ("5") and insert ("6(1)").—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with Amendments.
House adjourned at two minutes before seven o'clock.