Sitting of 14 November 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER, in the Chair]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. H. Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd):Yes, Sir. As the House is aware, the debate on the Address in reply to the Gracious Speech, will be continued today and on Friday and Monday, and brought to a conclusion on Tuesday, 19th November.
WEDNESDAY, 20TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Industrial Training Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Second Reading of the Nigeria Republic Bill.
THURSDAY, 21ST NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Defence (Transfer of Functions) Bill, and the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
FRIDAY, 22ND NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Kenya Independence and Zanzibar Bills, and of the Bahama Islands (Constitution) Bill.
MONDAY, 25TH NOVEMBER—The proposed business will be: Second Reading of the Housing Bill, and Committee stage of the Money Resolution.
Mr. Wilson:I think that the Leader of the House is aware that in past years we have had a convention that the Opposition could borrow one or two Supply days in advance of Christmas. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether that arrangement will apply this year and that it will be possible to have one or two days' debate in anticipation of Supply on subjects chosen by the Opposition?
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Secondly, either as part of that arrangement or in Government time, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that time is provided for us at an early date to debate the whole question of Commonwealth trade, including some of the Prime Minister's rather extraordinary remarks about the Commonwealth?
Thirdly, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman clear up the confusion which seems to exist in the minds of the Government about hire-purchase legislation which was not mentioned in the Gracious Speech? In view of the fact that right hon. and hon. Members opposite not long ago voted down a very valuable Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams), and that last Session an equally important Bill was voted down in another place, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether we can now expect hire-purchase legislation this Session?
Mr. Lloyd: As far as the last point which the right hon. Gentleman made is concerned, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be dealing with that matter in the course of his speech today. I will certainly consider the right hon. Gentleman's second point. I do not think that there will be any difficulty about the first point, but I will look into it.
Sir R. Cary:Much the most vital and intelligent proposals put before the House by the Government are the new and wide responsibilities given to the President of the Board of Trade, particularly in regard to the regional organisation and the possible appointment of regional industrial commissioners. In these circumstances, will my right hon. and learned Friend give consideration for the future to a series of debates on individual regions and not follow the usual custom of a day's or two days'debate on economic policy, in which we never get down to the vital, material matters affecting the regions?
Mr. Lloyd:I will certainly consider any suggestion from my hon. Friend. Of course, a good deal of what he said will be in order in today's debate.
Mr. Lipton: To make up some of the Parliamentary time lost on account of the Kinross by-election, will the Leader

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of the House now confirm the Government's decision that the Christmas Recess will run from 20th December to 14th January? All kinds of people seem to have been told these dates before the House has been officially informed.
Mr. Lloyd:I think that if the hon. Gentleman had studied the Motion put before the House yesterday he would have seen that Friday of that week was provided for private Members'time. Therefore, that is the provisional plan, but, of course, it is for the House itself to decide.
Mr. Wigg:Will the Leader of the House observe that I put down a Motion on the Order Paper to have a new Standing Order 80A so that we could have a defence expenditure committee to give the House some control over defence expenditure and to establish the facts? Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman be good enough either to find time for a debate on this subject, or to refer it to the Select Committee on Procedure so that the House could look at it, because surely it is time that the House, now meeting as the House of Commons, should have a look at, and attempt to control, the defence expenditure in the interests of all of us?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that the point raised by the hon. Member would be very material on the Second Reading of the Defence Bill which I have announced. I will certainly consider what he has said.
Mr. Wigg:If it is a fact that discussion of this kind will be in order on Second Reading of that Bill, I should be entirely satisfied.
Mr. Stratton Mills:Has my right hon. and learned Friend seen the Motion, standing in my name and relating to a matter of privilege, concerning an attempt by a public authority to exert improper pressure on a Member of Parliament? If so, will he give time to facilitate the investigation of this matter?
[That this House expresses its displeasure at the issue by British European Airways of a Writ of Summons dated 7th August, 1963, against the Belfast News Letter arising from a comment by the honourable Member for Belfast, North, subsequent to the tabling of a
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parliamentary question and deplores this attempt to prevent bona fide criticism of a public authority by a Member of Parliament; further regrets that British European Airways made no complaint as to the nature of the comment when published on Friday, 26th July, and did not communicate with the Belfast News Letter until after the adjournment of the House for the summer recess some eight days later on 2nd August, thus preventing the immediate raising of the issue of a breach by British European Airways of parliamentary privilege; and that the matter be referred to the Committee of Privileges.]
Mr. Lloyd: I have read the Motion, but I understand that the case has been settled. I would like to talk about it with my hon. Friend, if I may.
Mr. Manuel:Why is the Housing Bill, set down for 25th November, a United Kingdom one? It has been the custom to have separate legislation for housing matters in Scotland. To lump Scottish housing in with a United Kingdom Bill is grossly unfair, since our housing conditions are so very different. In a United Kingdom Bill we will not be able adequately to deal with the housing situation in Scotland.
Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Member is right in saying that the Bill applies to the United Kingdom as a whole, but I do not think that the other point he raised is one for me.
Dame Irene Ward: As I am rather interested in a few Bills which I want to see on the Statute Book, dealing with widows, for instance, will my right hon. and learned Friend let us have a list of the Bills which the Government have in mind, but which were not included in the Gracious Speech?
Mr. Lloyd: I will consider that suggestion.
Mr. Ross: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consult the Home Secretary about his experiences with the Town and Country Planning Acts? Is he aware that we got so mixed up because the Government included both England and Scotland in the one Measure that we had to have a completely new one? Scotland has its own law, by right

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established, so would it not be better to have Scotland's housing problemsseparately considered?
Mr. Lloyd:I will consider that, but we have made our plans to go on with this as a United Kingdom Bill and I cannot hold out much hope for any change.
Mr. E. Johnson:Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall that the former Prime Minister indicated on 1st August that he hoped to make a statement within two months on the subject of Service pensions, particularly with reference to widows? Can my right hon. and learned Friend now say when that statement will be made?
Mr. Lloyd: I cannot do so at this moment, but I know that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has this matter in mind.
Mr. W. Hamilton: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an undertaking, because of the great number of Questions, down for the Prime Minister, that the Prime Minister will come to the House more than two days a week in order to let us know what his thoughts are?
Mr. Lloyd: I believe that the present arrangement has worked very well.

BILLS PRESENTED

  COUNTRYSIDE AND TOURIST AMENITIES (SCOTLAND)
  Bill to establish a Scottish Tourist Amenities Council; to facilitate the taking in Scotland of measures for the preservation or enhancement of the natural beauty of the countryside, for the restoration or improvement of the appearance of land, for the bringing into use of certain land, and for the improvement of facilities available to the public for the enjoyment of the countryside; to make provision as respects litter bins and the removal and disposal of litter;
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  to confer on certain local authorities the like powers as are conferred on town councils by the Local Authorities (Publicity) Act 1931, and the Health Resorts and Watering Places Act 1936; to provide for the establishment of a Scottish Tourist Fund and to make further provision for the development of the tourist industry in Scotland; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, presented by Mr. Noble; supported by Mr. du Cann, Mr. Green, Mr. Brooman-White, and Mr. Stodart; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 14.]

  SUCCESSION (SCOTLAND)
  Bill to assimilate and amend the law of Scotland with respect to the succession to the heritable and moveable property of deceased persons; to amend the law in relation to the legal rights exigible out of such property, to the administration of deceased persons' estates and other property passing on death, to the capacity of minors to test, and to the presumption of survivorship; to provide for certain testamentary dispositions to be probative; to provide for adopted persons to be treated for certain purposes as children of their adopters; to make new provision as to the financial rights and obligations of the parties on the dissolution of a marriage; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, presented by Mr. Noble; supported by Lady Tweedsmuir; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 15.]
  Police
  Bill to re-enact with modifications certain enactments relating to police forces in England and Wales, to amend the Police (Scotland) Act 1956, and to make further provision with respect to the police, presented by Mr. Brooke; supported by Mr. Noble, Sir K. Joseph, the Attorney-General, Mr. Woodhouse, and Miss Mervyn-Pike; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 16.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  QUEEN'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [THIRD DAY]
    Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [12th November]:
    That an humble Address be presented to Het Majesty, as follows:—
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
    Question again proposed.

ECONOMIC SITUATION
2.45 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development and President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Edward Heath):My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already spoken of the three responsibilities now gathered together in this Department—the modernisation of industry, the expansion of trade, and regional development. They have been brought together because we believe that they belong together. I think that it has emerged clearly in the debate that the whole House is agreed on the need for a determined drive for the modernisation of Britain. The difference between us lies in how this is to be brought about.
To me, one thing is quite apparent—that the key to the modernisation of Britain is to be found in the further modernisation of British industry. In some cases it may require mechanisation, in others the introduction of automatic process control, in others the use of computer management. I will come to them later on. But these developments are essential if we are to reach our targets and fulfil our plans at home and if we are to reap the fruits of competitiveness in markets abroad.
A rate of growth of the economy of 4 per cent., discussed in the debate yesterday, requires a steady and continu-
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ing increase in exports of 5 per cent. This can only be achieved by a combination of improved industrial efficiency and dynamic salesmanship. It can only be maintained by our costs remaining thoroughly competitive.
In an expanding economy this requires a more even distribution of economic activity throughout the country. This is the only way to obtain consistent expansion without congestion, without shortages, without inflation and without the waste of unused resources, and it is this point which leads to the policy for a comprehensive regional development for central Scotland and north-east England which is explained in the two White Papers being published today.
Mr. William Ross: It has dawned on them at last.
Mr. Heath:It is because of this that I naturally wish to concentrate much of my speech on this aspect of Government policy. But there is another reason. There are some—there will always be some—who will say that the emphasis of both parties on modernisation is but another aspect of a voracious appetite for affluence. I suggest that we might use a term such as this with certain caution, because many of our countrymen are not thinking in terms which others use with the word "affluence".
Affluence for the sake of affluence is abhorrent to most people. As a means of raising the quality of the standard of life it should surely be a purpose of policy, however, and this is particularly demonstrated in those areas about which Iwant to talk this afternoon. It is one of the major objectives of the policy of regional development which we are now presenting.
Therefore, what we are seeking from improvements in industrial efficiency, from expanded exports and from regional development is not simply a greater contribution to economic advance, important though that is. The background to it—and this is particularly evident in the White Papers—is an improvement of all our standards, and these themselves will contribute to our economic developments. We are, therefore, determined to increase the pace of modernisation, to work vigorously for an expansion of trade and to press ahead with urgency the policies

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and plans for regional development which are being unfolded today. These are the three main priorities with which I am concerned. But there are also the other normal functions of the Board of Trade about which I want to say one thing before I come on to these priorities in detail.
Among those Measures not listed in the Queen's Speech, we shall be introducing a Bill during this Session to amend the Hire Purchase Acts. This will be an important part of our policy of extending consumer protection. It is the second item for giving effect to the recommendations of the Molony Committee on consumer protection.
As the House knows, we set up the Consumer Council in April of this year, and it is now meeting regularly under the chairmanship of Baroness Elliot of Harwood. The Hire Purchase Bill is intended to deal with those questions where we know action is immediately necessary, but more fundamental questions are involved in this whole matter. We are now studying these in the Department and, while we are doing so, we shall welcome the views of the finance houses, or any other bodies concerned, about these deeper problems which will not be immediately dealt with in the Bill which we shall soon be presenting.
Let me now say a few words about the modernisation of industry. At this moment we have a very good basis for a further advance. During the third quarter of 1963, the index of manufacturing production was running well ahead of any previous levels. Where there have been innovation and investment in the latest equipment, they are proving their worth. The motor industry is breaking all records. The September output was more than 25 per cent, above that of any previous September. The chemical industry has invested heavily in new capacity. Its output during the summer was nearly 10 per cent, above that of the summer of 1962.
These, of course, are the new industries, but this expansion need not be confined to the new industries. There is also scope in the older. In coal mining, for example, after very long and heavy investment in mechanisation, the concentration of manpower at the more economic pits has brought a rise
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in productivity. In the first ten months of this year, coal output was about 5 per cent, more than two years ago, although the labour force was 8 per cent, lower. This is with very heavy investment in mechanisation and closing down of the older pits.
We can look confidently in general to further increases in production. Order books generally are rising strongly, including those of the engineering industry. From 1958 to 1962, investment in manufacturing industry in real terms was 25 per cent, higher than in the previous five years. There are sure signs that investment in the private sector is beginning to rise again, and the pace is expected to increase over the next 12 months.
How are we to bring about the increased rate of modernisation and the use of mechanisation and the process of automation and other devices? I do not suggest that there is any easy way of doing this. In his speeches, the Leader of the Opposition has never suggested any specific ways in which this could be brought about. It is not something which can be imposed from the outside. It depends ultimately on industry itself and on the individuals running industry.
But I believe that the advance can come most rapidly by partnership between industry and Government in these matters. Industry must provide its own initiative and we should not take action which would weaken it. The Government's contribution should be to encourage the innovators by their economic policies. The financial arrangements for encouraging new investment in this country today, as a result of the actions of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his predecessors, will match those of anywhere in Europe. The pressure of competition should be used to encourage the innovators and those who are prepared to face change. But we must also recognise in the House as a whole that in many modern industries an increase in the size of firms is an essential condition of advance in this technological age.
Secondly, the Government must see that the basic structure of the country is right and that it is spread geographically right across the country. This means

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education, transport, communications and power, and in all these the House knows of the plans which the Government have evolved.
An interesting piece of research has recently been carried out in the United States which suggests that of the growth of American output from 1957 to 1962, 10 per cent, was due to increased capital, 35 per cent, to research and development, and 40 per cent, to education. It may well be that some of those figures are speculative, but they certainly demonstrate that any investment in education is an investment in growth and an increase in wealth. That is why, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer demonstrated yesterday, the proportion of the gross national product spent on education in this country under the present Government has risen to a level higher than ever before.
The third action of Government in this process must be to stimulate and help industryin its advance to automation. I say quite frankly that it means that we shall constantly look for weaknesses in the machinery of modernisation and consider how to fill the gaps and how to stimulate others to do so. This will mean constant consultation with industry to decide where the line should be drawn between the Government's task and industry's own responsibilities. I have begun consultations with industry in order that we may discuss this now.
Let us take as an example this question of automation about which we have heard a great deal, as we have about the advances which it promises. Many of our firms, the very large firms, have already gone a long way in the use of automatic production lines and automatic process control, and in the use of computersin the planning functions of management. Some of these are in the most advanced forms. Some are contributing to further advances. But in the middle ranges there are many firms who could use these processes but who are not doing so. What is lacking here?
The first thing is that they are often not aware that their own processes can be adapted to use these methods. That, fundamentally, is the problem. Certainly in many cases they could use the less sophisticated forms. The second
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problem is that they oftenfind it difficult to measure the economic advantages which could be gained from the adoption of these technological processes. They can find people who can advise them whether their processes can be adapted and, if so, how, but what is more difficult is for them to find out in advance the economic balance of advantage and disadvantage in so doing.
We are now examining whether there is a gap here and, if so, how it can be filled. One possibility might be to organise pilot schemes in which Government and industry would collaborate to see how this sort of experience would be provided. Another means would be to create a centre where knowledge and experience of this kind could be brought together so as to give firms who wish it comprehensive advice. There are various other possibilities which are emerging in discussions. We shall consult industry fully before we reach decisions as to how best we can help. What we cannot do is to intervene to plan people into automation; but we can guide and stimulate.
In exactly the same way, in scientific research and development the ultimate initiative must come from industry. The Government's contribution to civil research trebled from 1956 to 1962, but the Government cannot provide a substitute for eagerness to invent and to exploit. It must originate in industry itself.
There has recently been a description of the research in depth employed by a great Continental firm. It made a great impact. There are firms in this country which are spending on exactly the same scale, but they, too, are large firms. Here, again, it may be that the improvement of research and development in British industry will require changes in structure in industry and increases in the size of firms to be able to meet these requirements. If so, this is a development which we should not resist.
There are many other things in which industry could join together in order to examine common problems and share experiences. In this country this is not carried on to anything like the extent to which it is carried on in North America and many European countries.

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and therefore I hope that it, too, can be encouraged.
I was delighted when a number of groups took the initiative to ask Lord Franks to advise on the establishment of a business school. Another valuable contribution is that of the Centre for Inter-Firm Comparisons which is dealing largely with firms in the middle range. It addresses itself to the question of how the average firm can be brought nearer to the standard of the best. Unfortunately even these facilities are not fully used, and so in the last analysis what can be done in this field must depend not only on equipment, but on the attitudes of those in industry themselves.
Mr. Dan Jones: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said. Has he made any inquiry as to how the British machine tool industry will participate in this development? Are we going to buy the new automated machines from abroad, or are we going to produce them ourselves?
Mr. Heath: The British machine tool industry is very much in my mind, both from the point of view of the matter to which the hon. Gentleman referred, which is naturally important, and from the way in which the industry as a whole can contribute to the sort of thing I have been describing this afternoon, and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman raised this matter. It depends on the attitude which industry takes to these points. I hope that managements will be alert and professional in their outlook, looking ahead five years in product design, techniques, training their workers, and in assessing their markets. We shall do our utmost to assist in this process.
The second priority was that of trade and I should like to say something about our prospects. Our export prospects as a whole are encouraging. Exports in the third quarter of 1963 were nearly £350 million a month—9 per cent, more than in the second half of 1962. Imports are growing too. In the third quarter they were 4 per cent, above the second quarter, and 10 per cent, above the beginning of the year. Imports of industrial materials are rising very quickly.
Over the last decade the total value of British exports increased by about
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half. Exports of machinery doubled, and were nearly one-third of our exports by 1962. Exports of chemicals nearly doubled; so did non-ferrous metals and miscellaneous manufactured goods. Road vehicles and aircraft exports grew faster than average. In fact, the striking thing is that these groups accounted for almost all the total growth in exports, and this reflects the increasingly important part played in world trade by manufactured goods and by the industries which are growing fast.
In the short time which I have been in this office I have been looking at die pattern of world trade and of our own trade, and there are one or two points which I should like to put before the House. Out of the total exports of the world, nearly three-quarters come from the industrial countries. This emphasises the great gap between the developed parts of the world and the under-developed countries, and the importance of the G.A.T.T. negotiations and the United Nations trade conference. Trade between industrial countries themselves alone accounts for half of all world trade, and two-thirds of this is in manufactures, so that one-third of all world trade is an exchange of manufactured goods between the industrial countries.
What is our position set in this background looking at the long-term pattern of trade? The first thing is that our exports to the markets of Western Europe taken together now play the biggest part in our trade—36 per cent. in 1962. Our exports to the Common Market countries are 20 per cent, of our total and are still increasing, yet these themselves are less than 6 per cent, of the Common Market's total imports. There is therefore room for growth here if we continue the present energetic development of this market.
Exports to Commonwealth countries are still of great importance. They represent one-third of our trade in 1962, and one-fifth of all their imports. Yet, despite the big rise in the imports of the overseas Commonwealth, our own exports to them have failed to rise. This is indeed the point which I think the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) wants to debate at length later. I want to mention only one or two points today. Comparing the period 1960–62

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with 1955–57, imports into Commonwealth countries rose by £1,000 million. Yet our share of this was only £40 million. This is the point which presents us with one of the major questions of the developing pattern of world trade in this period of history.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Who has been largely responsible for it?
Mr. Heath: If the hon. Gentleman bears with me, I shall analyse the reason for it.
Exports to the United States represent 9 per cent, of our trade, and they have been growing at the rate of 9 per cent, a year. There is one further point of interest. Over the last ten years the area in which our exports have been growing fastest—although they take only a small percentage of the total—about 3 per cent.—is the Soviet bloc where the rate of immediate development is very fast—nearly 20 per cent, a year.
I have given these particular patterns to demonstrate, first, the importance of the industrial markets of the world in which we set the context of trade; secondly, the fact that much depends on our trade in Europe; thirdly, the problem of Commonwealth trade, and, fourthly, the growth of trade with the Soviet bloc. They also emphasise the importance of the Kennedy Round negotiations which, as the House knows, are not only tariff negotiations, but trade negotiations of a general kind.
Now may I emphasise one or two points of the action that we have taken. First, in E.F.T.A. we have taken the initiative and at the end of this year we shall be more than half-way to free trade with E.F.T.A. Three more years will see the industrial tariffs disappear. Our trade with Common Market countries so far has grown nearly as fast as their trade with each other, and one has to take account of the fact that their own manufactured tariffs are nearly half-way towards removal, and tariffs are coming up externally steadily against us. The increase in trade has been in part due to the greatly increasing prosperity of the Market itself. It has also been due to the fact that there are specialised goods which we produce and continue to sell, despite the tariffs. The
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success is also due to the immense efforts made by our exporters, and the plain fact is that the negotiations, although unsuccessful, focused the attention of exporters on the European market to a very great degree.
Mr. Anthony Greenwood (Rossen-dale): Oh.
Mr. Heath:This is undoubtedly the case. If the hon. Gentleman talks to anybody in his constituency who exports, he will know that this is the case. What is necessary is that these efforts, which were redoubled after the failure of the negotiations—large firms very often joined together to help their position—should be reinforced.
Mr. Harold Wilson:Does not the right hon. Gentleman see the obverse of this point? Is is not a fact that these efforts in Europe—and they have been fine efforts—have been marked by a corresponding reluctance on the part of many exporters to try to see if they can sell in the Commonwealth? Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the adverse criticisms of the head of the Snowy River Development Scheme in Australia about British exporters not even trying to get Australian markets, and does not the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that our exporters, and indeed Commonwealth and certain other sources of supply, have been discouraged by the fact that not merely during the Common Market negotiations, but over the last six or seven years, this Government seem to have turned their back on the development of Commonwealth trade?
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman's last statement is completely wrong. The question which I have been asking myself is this:is this due to any question of the framework of trade for which the Government can be responsible, or is it due to the efforts which individual business men and firms must make to gain markets in the Commonwealth? Is it due to the fact that they have not got the resources to make these efforts in the Commonwealth area? These are the relevant questions to which we should address our minds.
There is one further point which I want to make. Two-thirds of our trade and of the trade of all Commonwealth countries is outside the Commonwealth. Hon.

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Members say that the position has been damaged since negotiations began. But at the Montreal conference of the Commonwealth it was evident that because of this distribution of their own trade Commonwealth countries were interested above all in multilateral trading arrangements and the improvement of such trading arrangements, and that is perfectly justifiable on the scale of trade being carried on.
I said earlier that the imports of Commonwealth countries have increased by £1,000 million and that we have had very little of this extra trade. We know that the Commonwealth countries would not welcome proposals for more extensive and exclusive trading arrangements among the members, and we know that there are reasons for the decline in our share. Restrictions on dollar imports which formerly ensured us a large share of the Commonwealth market have disappeared. New sources of supply have been opened up to the Commonwealth, and we take a smaller proportion of their export trade than we used to because our market is already fully supplied and they have found outlets in the other growing markets of the world. But we should be able to obtain part of their increased imports.
The question is: why cannot we do so? Basically, it means that greater enterprise has to be shown by firms if they are to gain these markets. It is true that the effort which was concentrated in Europe because they saw it as a great industrial market, compared with which the developed part of the Commonwealth is small, meant a diversion of effort from other markets. The question is: how many firms have the resources to mount and sustain a major sales campaign in more than one area of the world where there is scope for increasing exports? That is a fundamental question.
It is striking that 50 per cent, of our export trade today is carried out by only 200 firms. It is, therefore, a relevant question to ask how many have the resources to carry out in Europe major sales campaigns of the kind carried out formerly in the Commonwealth market after the war and in the United States in recent years, and to maintain them at the same time.
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Rather than suggest, as the right hon. Gentleman has, that this is a neglect of a particular market, I believe that what we should do is to urge our firms to increase and expand their sales organisations, in modern terms, in order to be able to hold more than one major market at a time. It is the responsibility of the firms themselvesto enlarge their sales organisations and also to recognise that we may see a change in the structure of firms, and an increase in the size of many of them, if they are to support a sales organisation of the type which we want to hold these markets. That is a fundamental question in our approach to the whole industrial structure. If amalgamations are necessary for this purpose we should not be afraid of them.
Lastly, I want to say something about trade with the countries of the Soviet bloc. We can discuss in detail the question of Commonwealth trade. I have dealt with it only in broad outline today, but we can discuss in detail the action that we are already taking to deal with this problem.
Miss Margaret Herbison: Will the right hon. Gentleman examine as soon as possible the effectiveness or otherwise of those in our High Commission Offices whose duty it is to look after trade?
Mr. Heath: Yes, I will certainly do that. When I was at the Foreign Office I went into this question very carefully with my right hon. Friend the present Prime Minister, because the Foreign Office has interests in other countries, just as the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Board of Trade have in Commonwealth countries. If there are any examples where, in the hon. Lady's view, action was not taken, or there were omissions, I will gladly have them examined at once, because our only desire is to make this machinery as effective as possible, and to gain the markets of the Commonwealth countries.
I want to say a word about trade with the Soviet bloc. Although not large, it has increased at a striking rate. Imports have risen from £102 million in 1958 to £158 million in 1962. I am looking forward to welcoming the Soviet Minister of Foreign Trade here early next year to discuss a new trade agreement. During the next few months we shall also be

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having annual discussions with some other Eastern European countries about the volume of trade. Because we value this trade we want to have as few restrictions as practicable, and these countries have told us that the present system of detailed annual quotas seems to them to be unduly limiting. They have suggested that trade could be increased if a more flexible system were introduced for the control of imports, and I am prepared to look at this question very carefully.
We believe that there is room for greater opportunities for trade with these countries of eastern Europe—trade both ways—providing their prices are not disruptive and that trade is possible in the goods that our people want to buy. All the Board of Trade services which are available to exporters apply to our trade with the bloc. Equally, all the facilities of the Export Credits Guarantee Department, including financial guarantees, are available for business with the bloc as for business with other markets.
One part of my own responsibilities, as I have explained to the House, is for regional development. The primary objective of regional development is to promote the growth and well-being of—and I emphasise this—the country as a whole. I feel that we shall have a considerable amount of debate not only in this House, but in the country, as a result of the two White Papers of a regional character which are being published this afternoon. It is important that from the outset of the argument we should recognise that the purpose is not limited to helping particular regions, but to helping the growth and well-being of the country as a whole.
It can do that by relieving present congestion and preparing to meet the demands which a growing population will make on this country, in terms of communications, employment, and so on. Like most advanced industrial countries, we have the problem of regional imbalance. The forces which brought it about are very powerful, as Governments of all colours have found in these last years.
Some people may still argue that these forces should be left to operate unchecked. We may hear that point of view expressed, but I feel that few would argue it. What is important is
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that the measures used to control these forces should be ones which will promote and not impede national growth and efficiency. That must be the criterion by which we judge the actions that we take. Some people see regional development primarily in social terms. I want to be frank here: for this reason they do not think it appropriate that regional development should be in the hands of a Minister at the Board of Trade.
I think that they are wrong. The real life of a region is bound to rest upon its economy. In our view, therefore, it is right that the responsibility for regional development should rest with a Minister who is concerned with industrial efficiency, with technological change, and with the general processes of economic growth.
Mr. D. Jones: We said that a long time ago.
Mr. Heath:The hon. Member is very far-seeing and very wise. Not everybody holds the same view. I add straight away, to those who have expressed this view in public, that in exercising my responsibilities as Secretary of State I do not intend to take a view which is limited to economic matters. I am as anxious as anybody to develop to the full all the amenities of a region and to make the fullest use of all the skill and energy available in doing so.
The approach of both pre-war and post-war Governments to this problem has been to seek to deal with problems of unemployment in particular places through policies for the distribution of industry. These policies have recently had two main points; first, a limitation on expansion, and, secondly, inducements to go to particular places. The conception we are now putting forward is a wider one based on the development of a region as a whole and its development in all its aspects.
The appointment of a Minister with positive responsibility for regional development carries forward the work which has recently been done by the Government. It follows the Lord President's appointment as Minister with responsibility for the North-East, and I should like to express, since I have now come into contact with this work, my admiration for the enthusiasm, flair

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and immense value of the work that has been devoted to this project by my noble Friend.
What we are building on now in these two White Papers is not only the Lord President's investigations and Report, but also the work in Scotland under the direction of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, the planning studies initiated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the work done by the Toothill Committee and the National Economic Development Council. The two White Papers will be available in the Vote Office in a few minutes.
Mr. A. G. Bottomley: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why, after twelve months of professed intensive Government effort, unemployment in the North-East is today running at the rate of 5.6 per cent.—over 7,000 people under the age of 18 unemployed and over 2,000 who left school last summer still unable to get jobs?
Mr. Heath:The right hon. Gentleman knows only too well that I have already dealt with what I said are the powerful forces working in this region. What we are doing is endeavouring to get to the root cause of the trouble and to deal with it. [Hon. Members: "Oh."]I gather from the unrest on the benches opposite that the Opposition dislike the constructive work that is now being done. However, the House will want time to consider in detail and to weigh the proposals that are now being put forward. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will arrange for early debates on this matter. I wish to draw attention to some of the main features and to set them in the context of the themes which are common to both White Papers.
Mr. Ross: Which have not yet been published.
Mr. Heath:But I am entitled to explain them, and I intend to do so. The themes which run through the White Papers are, first, the theme of growth, secondly, of modernisation, thirdly, of continuity of development, and fourthly, of partnership. I will consider first the question of the approach to growth. In
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both regions the emphasis is on the promotion of growth. Our aim will be to provide a steady rise in the level of economic activity to a point where further growth will be self-generating and will provide the basis for a sustained rise in employment.
We have, therefore, adopted the concept of growth places. The application of the concept of places of growth is different in the two regions. This is because the growth places have been chosen, after detailed study, as the places which have the best prospects of generating faster growth in the region. In central Scotland there will be a series of growth areas which, of course, includes the four Scottish new towns, spreading across the central belt from Glenrothes in the east to Dumbarton in the west. Each growth area is situated so as to fall within the influence of either Glasgow or Edinburgh. When the modernised communicating network is complete, people will be within easy travelling distance of these cities and there will thus also be modern links with the South.
In the North-East there will be a single growth zone. This will be roughly the area formed by Tyneside and Tees-side and that part of County Durham which lies to the east of the Great North Road. It is, therefore, a quadrilateral-This covers only a small part of the region, but it takes in the main existing centres of population and activity. Within this growth zone the two main conurbations of Tees-side and Tyneside and the Darlington-Aycliffe area will be regarded as centres of expansion.
The second main theme of the two White Papers is the modernisation of the whole life of the region. I am sure that in the minds of many hon. Members will be a number of detailed questions as I go along, but I can assure them that they will be able to read all about these important matters in the White Papers.
Mr. E, G. Willis: This is terrible, disgraceful.
Mr. Heath: Perhaps I may be allowed to continue.
Mr. Ernest Popplewell:The right hon. Gentleman has defined an area to the

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east of the Great North Road. Does it mean that north-west Durham is to be left out and that Cumberland, Westmorland, and so on, will not be included in the proposals?
Mr. Heath: Perhaps the hon. Member will consult the map which is provided.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Heath: I must continue. It means that the area which has been taken into the zone of growth is the area I have defined. I have defined it as the area of growth. Naturally, the areas which are at the moment development districts and which are not included in this area of growth will retain their present facilities regarding Government investment and so on.
Mr. Douglas Jay: They are being changed.
Mr. Heath: They are not being changed from the present position. They will go on receiving their present facilities so long as these are justified by present legislation. However, they do not come into the growth zone, the purposes of which I have been trying to explain.
Mr. Jay:Can we get this clear? Will some facilities and assistance from the Government go only to these new selected growth areas and not to the present development districts?
Mr. Heath: The facilities will be in the form of the basic public investment of the Government in the areas to make conditions attractive for industry to go to the growth zone. The inducements to enterprise which already exist will be combined with a wide range of measures to makeeach region a more efficient and better place in which to live and work. These measures will be deployed and co-ordinated on a regional basis in deliberate support of the basic growth policy which I have described. Better communications, more and better housing, urban renewal, a raising of standards in the whole environment—a bettering of the whole quality of life—are essential features of the programme for both regions.
It may assist hon. Members if I give some figures affecting the two regions.
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For central Scotland, for example, the road programme for the next five-year period will be increased from £83 million to £101 million. The annual rate of new house building will be stepped up from 23,000 to at least 30,000 in the next few years, and higher still thereafter.
The four existing new towns—East Kilbride, Cumbernauld, Livingston and Glenrothes—will be expanded substantially beyond the original targets, and more quickly. Two additional industrial estates are being developed by the Board of Trade at Bellshill and Donibristle, and a big new drive will be made on rehabilitation and renewal in the old industrial areas such as north Lanarkshire and central Fife.
In the north-east of England similar action will be taken. The road programme will be extended from £58 million to £108 million; the combined public and private housing programme will be raised from 18,000 to 25,000 annually; the target size of Aycliffe new town will be more than doubled; a further new town will be built at Washington for between 70,000 and 80,000 people; the investment programme will be stepped up substantially in town centre redevelopment work, especially on Tyneside and Teesside——
Mr. Ross:On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the right hon. Gentleman is describing the White Paper, would it not be wise to adjourn the debate until we have seen it?
Mr. Speaker: I do not observe that it is a point of order for the Chair.
Mr. Heath: The White Paper will be published—
Mr. Thomas Fraser:On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like your guidance. If the right hon, Gentleman is, in fact, describing the White Paper, is it not a matter for the Chair to protect hon. Members by ensuring that they have the White Paper in their possession at this time?
Mr. Paul Williams:Is it not the position, Mr. Speaker, that the Government are announcing their plans and views on

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economic policy, and that at a sub sequent stage there will be a debate on the White Paper?
Mr. Speaker: I think that the two points are related. I think the true position is that the Minister said that he is to lay this document—or, rather, have it made, available to hon. Members, do not think that that prevents him from being able to refer to it now.
Mr. H. Wilson: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is a matter of common knowledge that this White Paper was ready yesterday—and, indeed was expected to be laid yesterday. It has obviously been deferred so that the right hon. Gentleman can make his speech first. Every question put to him is greeted by the answer, "You had better study the White Paper", which is making nonsense of the debate. In view of the Government's deliberate holding-back of the White Paper—I gather that it has arrived in the Vote Office a moment ago; I have just been to find out—would it not be more convenient for the House, in view of the way the Government have treated it, if the House were to adjourn for an hour so that hon. Members could read the White Paper, and then debate it with some knowledge of what the right hon. Gentleman is saying?
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman addresses me, he says, on a point of order. I think that his quarrel is with the Government, and nothing to do with the Chair.
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is quite wrong—
Mr. Ross:On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are there not certain restrictions on any Government spokesman in the references to be made to a paper that has not been laid on the Table, and not available to the House?
Mr. Speaker: I would desire to remind the House of what is our rule about this. What I am quoting from is the Manual of Procedure, in the 1959 Edition, paragraph 168:
"If a Minister of the Crown quotes in the House a despatch or other state paper which has not been presented to the House, he ought to lay it on the Table."
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But that is precisely what I understand the position to be. The Minister says that he is to do that. I do not think that this gives rise to any point of order for the Chair.
I hope that the House will not mind my reminding hon. Members that I have daily to sit with the personal anguish of knowing that many hon. Members will not get into the debate, and that I am always grateful if we can get on.
Mr. Heath:I have not, in fact, been quoting from the White Paper, but summarising certain points. I have tried to help the House by emphasising the themes that run through it. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is quite wrong in saying that this White Paper was to be published yesterday. It was announced ten days ago that it would be published today. It was due to be published at half-past three, and I told the House so when I began to speak.
The right hon. Gentleman made a great point in his speech on Tuesday that what he wanted was honestly to debate policies. Would he not find it for the convenience of the House if I explained the policies to him and to his colleagues? He can then, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House has already said, have every opportunity to debate the White Papers when there has been time for consideration of them.
Mr. H. Wilson:Since the House wants to debate these policies intelligently, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us why this White Paper was not laid before he started his speech? Will he confirm or deny that it had been printed yesterday? Or is he telling us that it was only printed and bound this morning?
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman knows the procedure full well; that the Government fix the time for the White Paper which it believes is a reasonable time. When this time was fixed we had no idea that the debate today was to be an economic debate, nor had we any idea that I was to speak, apart from proposing, in the usual way, to make a statement at the beginning of Business which would have contained

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this material which the right hon. Gentleman would have found in the White Paper.
Mr. George Brown: In other words, "The next election must be the only thing in our mind".
Mr. Heath:Let the people of the two regions judge these policies. They can also judge for themselves the attitude of the Opposition.
Perhaps I might now return to the third theme which runs through the White Paper. The third theme is that not only of modernisation and growth, but of continuity, and there is a firm Government commitment to a sustained effort for many years to come in these regions. These are stubborn problems which we have to face, and the policies are based on a long-term concept. This assurance is required to give confidence to the local authorities, to the construction industries, to firms considering expansion, to workers still not convinced of the need for skilled training, and to all men and women worried about the future of these regions. The commitments made to modernisation should give them this confidence in ample measure.
The important assurance to which I would draw the attention of the House is that the White Papers make it clear that the Scottish growth areas and the North-East growth zone will not be removed from the list of development districts until there is strong evidence of a general and sustained improvement in employment in the region as a whole—
Mr. Popplewell: Thank you for nothing.
Mr. Heath: The hon. Member should be a little careful in making that sort of remark about an assurance that is as firm about a whole growth area as is this in the White Papers.
The fourth theme of the White Papers is partnership—partnership between Government Departments, between Government Departments and local authorities, between central and local government, and between local authorities and all the other interests in the regions.
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It is not just a matter of official policies and programmes. It is a question of the task being one for the local people in the regions, working together. The business community has an obvious part to play. The universities and technical institutions and research bodies will also be putting their ideas and "know-how" into the pool of regional thinking and planning. The voluntary organisations have their task of helping to make fuller opportunities for people in these areas which are undergoing rapid economic and social change.
There is also the work of the Scottish Council and the North-East Development Council. The Government have decided, after the report by Messrs. S. H. Benson on publicity arrangements for areas of high unemployment, to offer Exchequer assistance to the Scottish Council and the North-East Development Council for building up their promotional activities. We believe that given help of this kind they can do even more valuable work.
The trade unions have a key part to play in these regions. Building requires new methods and new skills. Not only for the additional public investment required—though that will founder if men are not forthcoming with new techniques able to get a big rise in constructional output. It is also a question of showing industrialists that these regions can offer people able to take on the kinds of work that growth industries need. The Government will do all they can to get training facilities extended and I am sure that the trade unions and their members will ensure that this expansion has fruitful results.
These, then, are the four main themes of the White Paper—growth, modernisation, continuity and partnership. They all depend in their different ways on a substantial and sustained increase in the two regions' public service investment. Therefore, they rely on a material increase in the output of the two regions' construction industries. If we are to avoid delayed completions and rising costs this means the full use of modern methods and the full acceptance of the need for increased industrial training. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works and Newcastle University together have arranged a conference for 10th January into ways

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of speeding me greater use of industrialised methods of building and I look forward to useful results from this.
Already as a result of decisions taken during the last twelve months or so the current year's investment in both regions is expected to be materially higher than in earlier years. In central Scotland the 1963–64 figure is likely to be as much as £130 million, or 30 per cent, up on last year. In the North-East it will probably be about £80 million, or 45 per cent, up on last year, and for 1965–66 the figures are likely to be respectively £140 million and £90 million. This will mean that for some years ahead these regions will get about the sams relatively high proportions as in 1964–65 of a steadily expanding national public investment total.
Much of this investment will be by local authorities, but, of course, a considerable part of the cost will fall on the central Government, whether through the normal grant and subsidy arrangements or through the fact that some of the work, for example on motorways, trunk roads and new towns, is 100 per cent. Exchequer financed. The 85 per cent, grant for the clearance of derelict areas is being continued. These two regions, with about 13 per cent, of the population of Great Britain, will be getting by next year, as a result of deliberate Government policy, up to 18 per cent, of Great Britain's total public service investment. The White Papers mean that they are likely to go on enjoying this favourable treatment for some years to come.
This is because, in the Government's view, central Scotland and north-east England are at present suffering from structural and historical weaknesses which do not apply on quite the same scale in other parts of the country. I accept that this is bound to mean that some other regions will receive proportionately less. It is justified not only by the needs of the regions I have mentioned, but also because it will enable an increased growth in the economy of the country as a whole, which is for the benefit of all regions.
Mr. J. Grimond: Naturally, I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for including these at this late stage, but when he says that certain of these regions are suffering
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more than others this is not true. The parts of Scotland which suffer most heavily from unemployment and depopulation are the Highlands and the Borders. The Prime Minister must be well aware of this. Wales is not mentioned, nor south-west England. Are we to take it that there are no proposals for these other regions which have certainly suffered as heavily?
Mr. Heath: If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish my speech, he will hear what I have to say about the other regions. I can also deal with the point that the Government are said to have done so little for these areas.
These are long-term plans, but under the Local Employment Acts, since April, 1960, total assistance of nearly £93 million has been offered by the Board of Trade. Of this sum, £45 million have gone to 160 projects in Central Scotland to provide 36,000 jobs and £15 million have gone to 110 projects in the North-East to provide over 17,000 jobs. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Huyton will recall that I said that there are fundamental forces working against every effort made by Governments to induce industries to go to these areas. He must recall that in his own time at the Board of Trade he was not offering anything like the inducements which the present Government are offering. He must also recognise that there are similar forces at work, though not to such a great extent, in world economic affairs.
Mr. H, Wilson:What I recognise is that we brought full employment to these areas. What the right hon. Gentleman is still not telling the House is that in the four years after an election in which the Government pledged themselves to solve the problems of these areas, unemployment has risen sharply both in Scotland and on the North-East Coast.
Mr. Heath: I have given the figures for action taken under the 1960 Act, and which was taken directly after we came into power. I now give the figures for action taken since the 1963 Act was passed. We have received at the Board of Trade 1,002 applications and of these 300 have been for central Scotland and 300 for the North-East. Of the 1,002, we have so far approved in principle or

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otherwise dealt with, 633, as a result of special machinery which we have created, and these applications are being dealt with now at a very fast rate indeed. This is what the present Government have done to deal with these problems.
Finally, I should like to say something about the organisation required for regional development. My responsibilities cover Great Britain, but where Scotland is concerned my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible for devising the details of the plans and policy and seeing that they are implemented. My responsibility is that of fitting the regional plans and developments into the regional developments as a whole, though of course in the Board of Trade we have responsibility for industrial policy in Scotland. There is no direct responsibility for Northern Ireland, but we have close liaison with the Northern Ireland Government on industrial development policy and I have assured the Minister of Commerce that that will be extended to include general matters of regional development in future.
My task in the North-East will be to see that the plan is implemented. To assist in this work of co-ordination, I have set up a group of officials drawn from the half-dozen Departments mainly concerned, in particular Housing, Labour and Transport. They will help in implementing the programme for the North-East, but they will also advise over the general field of regional development. Within the North-East there will be periodical conferences of all the regional officers. Those will be under the chairmanship of the head of the new "Regional Development Division" which I have now set up in the Board of Trade. The first regional meeting of this kind will be held next week.
The rÔle of local authorities in the North-East will also be of the highest importance. I have agreed with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government that his regional officer, in addition to his departmental duties, will be responsible to me for coordinating day-by-day those elements in the regional development programme which involve local authority functions. This machinery should enable us to secure
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the implementation of the proposals as well as to keep them under review and adapt them as the circumstances of the region require.
We must keep flexibility as well as a sense of urgency in their implementation. But, of course, central Scotland and the North-East are not the end of the story. The Gracious Speech makes it plain that we intend to bring forward plans appropriate to other regions some of whose problems, though different from those of central Scotland and the North-East, are nevertheless pressing.
Work on a study of land use and employment problems in the South-East is well advanced under the direction of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government. The problem here is how to cope with actual and prospective growth and to relieve congestion without impairing the national efficiency.
There are also studies in the Northwest and the Midlands. These have so far been concerned principally with land use. We shall now carry them forward in the wider context of this general policy for regional development. There is also a study in hand for Wales, though I honestly cannot deal in detail with these studies today. I have paid a quick visit to the North-East and to Scotland—
Mr, Charles Loughlin: What about the south-west of England?
Mr. Heath: A deputation from the south-west of England has been to see me and discussed this matter, but there is no work in hand at the moment for the south-west region. [Hon. Members: "Why not?"] Because we are maintaining priorities and we have not yet reached that of the South-West. This I have undertaken to discuss with the South-West as soon as possible in the New Year.
Mr. F. H. Hayman:Could the right hon. Gentleman define a little more clearly what he means by "as soon as possible"?
Mr. Heath: I said "as soon as possible in the New Year". They have already discussed the questions with me and I am now examining the points which they raised.
Mr. Harold Finch:May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that there is considerable unemployment in the valleys in Wales?
Mr. Heath: I said that a study has already been started in Wales by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government. This will be fitted into the context of general regional development under this new arrangement. In outlining this arrangement to the House, I emphasised the economic aspects of these regional development plans. But I do not want the House to think that it is only with the economic aspects that we are concerned. I hope that the other aspects of housing, schools, hospitals, increased help for the Arts Council, and so on, will show that we have a wider aim still than the economic aim.
To help these regions to develop over the years there can be no quick, easy solution to this problem—to develop over the years into places where, instead of there being a tendency to migrate, people will be able to live near their work, and where industrialists will want to go with their families, to take their firms and businesses and carry on there permanently.
That must be the object of long-term policy. We believe that we have the opportunity to do this with the proposals in the two White Papers, and I commend them to the House.
3.54 p.m.
Mr. James Callaghan: We fully recognise that in the course of this Session the Government are going to try to extract the maximum electoral advantages from everything that is in their hat, but we do not see why they should put us under the disadvantage of not seeing the White Papers that they intend to discuss before they are announced in the House. This really is shabbiness carried to an extremity. No one can pretend that documents of this magnitude were not printed, known about, parcelled up and ready for distribution. There is no reason at all why the Government should not have given us the opportunity of seeing these documents so that some comments could have been made about the announcements that the Minister has made this afternoon. This is carrying electioneering too far.
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We have had another example of electioneering today. Although many items have been covered in the Queen's Speech, there is no announcement about the Hire-Purchase Bill. The Government could find room to say all sorts of things about protecting the breeders of new and rarified plants. One would have thought it was just as important to mention the matter of hire purchase, if the housewife is to be protected against these hire-purchase people who go from door to door; we call them "tally-men" in South Wales. Why was this not mentioned in the Gracious Speech? [An. Hon. Member: "They forgot it."]No, I do not think they forgot it. I do not think they intended to do it. They have had a change of mind overnight, and I will tell my hon. Friends why I think they have had a change of mind.
In the last Session in the other place Lord Peddie, a very distinguished co-operator, brought a Bill forward. He was asked to withdraw it on the ground that the Government would bring forward their own Measure. Yesterday he said, through the usual channels, that he was not going to be put off again. He said that he would bring forward his own Bill, whether they liked it or not. My hon. Friends who are co-operators in this House, and who have followed this matter of hire purchase month after month and year after year, placed a Motion on the Order Paper. The Government could see that they were going to get into trouble over this; so, Lord Peddie having made his speech in the House of Lords and having made it clear that he intends to come forward with the Hire-Purchase Bill, we are promised a Bill today, although it was not worth mentioning in the Gracious Speech.
I am almost willing to make this bet with my hon. Friends. The Government may announce the Measure, but it is a long way between announcing it and seeing it on the Statute Book. Is the President of the Board of Trade saying that this Measure will be put on the Statute Book before the election? Is that what he is saying?
Mr. Heath indicated assent.
Mr. Callaghan:I accept his undertaking. The Hire-Purchase Bill will be put on the Statute Book before there is a General Election. I am grateful for

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having extracted that undertaking from the right hon. Gentleman. It only goes to show that if we shove this Government in their present state of electioneering jitters, they will give almost anything. I advise my hon. Friends to keep it up. We have about six months before Father Christmas forecloses, and then we shall be back to the same dreary old round again. [Laughter.] I am glad to give hon. Members opposite a little comfort in allowing them to think that they might possibly win the General Election.
There was no mention of Wales at all. Apparently there are to be developments in the Highlands and Islands. There are references—well-deserved—to the North, to Scotland and other parts, but there is no reference in the Gracious Speech to Wales at all. Why is this? We have a Minister for Welsh Affairs but he has not been here today. He has not been seen very much during the whole course of the debate, and he has failed to secure any reference to the problems of Wales in the course of the Gracious Speech. This confirms the need, especially in a Tory Government, of a Secretary of State for Wales. It is not so necessary in a Labour Government because, thank goodness, there are a great many Labour Members from South Wales and North Wales who are actively prosecuting the case for Wales. We know that Wales is singularly unrepresented in the Tory Party and the consequence is that they need a Secretary of State. We are committed to this, and there will be a Secretary of State in the next Labour Government.
Let us take one or two of these Welsh problems. I hope my hon. Friends representing other parts of the country willallow me to discuss Wales for five minutes, in order that we may know what the problems are. Let us take the question of leasehold. This was the last opportunity the Government had to put right this grievance that is felt very strongly in the valleys, cities and towns of South Wales. The Government are opposed to the enfranchisement of the leaseholder both in Wales and England. They have failed to take any steps at all during their twelve years of life to enfranchise the freeholders, and I wish to say nowwhat we have said before, that we intend to introduce a Measure to deal with this problem. I hope and
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believe that the next Queen's Speech will contain proposals for legislation from a Labour Government. I do not believe that this Government will introduce one first. They have had opportunity after opportunity, but this is too much for them to swallow. The Minister has said more than once that he believes that the present system is right.
There is the question of apprenticeships and unemployment. We shall hear a lot about them in connection with other areas in the country. But in Wales today there are still nearly 29,000 men and women and young people who are out of work; and there are only 7,100 vacancies for jobs. The Local Employment Act has revealed many weaknesses in its application in South Wales as in many other areas. Unemployment black spots are treated on too narrow a basis. We need much wider areas on the development area lines if we are to be enabled to deal with this problem.
In the valleys there are people who have to travel 10 or 20 miles to work. We need planning on a broader and a regional basis. Apprenticeships in both South Wales and North Wales are far too few. We depend mainly on the nationalised industries in this respect and they have done a first-class job. There are also, of course, some private industrialists who have done the same thing and South Wales Switchgear may be taken as a notable example. But young men in South Wales still have to leave home and come to England—they come from many walks of life and from many trades—if they wish to train as apprentices. This is something which is deeply resented. More opportunities are needed.
I wish now to refer to transport. The Prime Minister told us that if a line has to be closed in the Highlands, adequate alternative transport must be provided somehow. [Hon. Members: "Somehow."]Does that pledge apply also to Wales? If so, by whom is it to be provided—[Hon. Members: "Someone."]—and at whose expense, and when? At the moment we have nothing but closures in central Wales where it has been said that a desert is being created. We have exactly the same problem as exists in parts of the Highlands. I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he will give us an assurance

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that the pledge he made about the Highlands will also apply to central Wales. [Hon. Members: "Answer."] I am ready to give way to the Prime Minister, very ready to give way.
Mr. G. Brown:At least the right hon. Gentleman could say "Somehow".
Mr. Callaghan:Notice will be taken that the Prime Minister is not so forthcoming about central Wales as he was about the Highlands of Scotland. Of course, the same problem exists in parts of England.
In North Wales today there are areas where unemployment is heavy and districts are not scheduled. I know of no growth point which has been scheduled in Wales. In the quick introduction which the Minister gave us I heard nothing about any growth point, or zone of growth, in Wales, despite the great difficulties which exist in North Wales.
There is one further issue on which I wish to express a point of view on behalf of my lion. Friends. I refer to the future of the Welsh University. There is great dispute about the University of Wales and in some cases more heat than light is being generated. The real test which we have to apply is that the future of the students should not be imperilled in the quarrels about the administration of the university. If there is no agreement in Wales on this question, it may be that there ought to be a public inquiry, which could take many forms because legislation will be needed before we can alter the constitution of the University of Wales, and also bring into play the pledge of the Labour Party that the colleges of advanced technology will become universities in their own right.
I turn more particularly to the problems of Scotland and the North, including the North-East. We can measure the success of the Government's record over the last twelve years by the level of unemployment. The Local Employment Act came into force in April, 1960, when the unemployment figure in Scotland was 65,000. As a result of this Act and everything that has flown from it unemployment has increased, and in October of this year the figure was 88,000. These are the figures which the Minister was unwilling to give. I give them for him. Unemployment in Scotland has increased during the three-and-
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a-half years of the operation of the Local Employment Act.
At the time when the Act came into operation there were 37,000 people out of work in the North. The last count showed that there were 56,000 out of work. I am not surprised that the Prime Minister, to use his own words, has asked the Secretary of State to "tackle it afresh", if this is the measure of the record on which the Government stand. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was President of the Board of Trade during part of this time. He introduced the legislation and resisted Amendments moved by my hon. Friends. He told us that the idea of development districts was the correct notion for trying to overcome these unemployment black spots, and he concluded his introductory speech by saying that the Measure would
"add success in this field to the many that the Government have had in other fields."—[Official Report, 9th November, 1959; Vol. 613. c. 48.]
As a result of this success the Prime Minister has asked the Secretary of State to tackle it afresh and try to deal with the consequences of his own success.
Of course, we all know what has happened, but it seemed to come as a blinding light this afternoon to the Secretary of State. There has been this continuing drift to the Midlands and to the South of workers from the North and from Scotland, following the decline of the traditional industries. These figures have been known and told many times. They have been repeated from this side of the House. Mr. Chetwynd said about the North the other day that there are still over 12,000 young people who are leaving to come South. In Scotland there is a move to the South, and in the Northwest, Mr. Allen, Director of the Lancashire Merseyside Industrial Association said yesterday that 124,000 have moved to the South. This causes deep and bitter resentment in these areas. In some ways I regret—although I am sure that the Secretary of State will do his best—that we have not a Minister for these areas who comes from the areas.
Mr. Ross: We will give them one.
Mr. Callaghan: I believe that there is a lot to be said for having someone who lives and has his constituency and roots

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in these areas to deal with these problems. Only a person who comes from the areas can understand how deep is the resentment which exists about the movement of young people away from their own regions because they cannot find work.
The basic weakness over the last twelve years has been the failure of the Government to plan and their readiness and willingness to drift. Now we are told that we are to have growth points The Cairncross Committee recommended this for Scotland ten years ago. It has taken a decade for this idea to sink in.
Mr. H. Wilson:The Prime Minister was then Minister of State for Scotland.
Mr. Callaghan: My right hon. Friend reminds me that, of course, the present Prime Minister was then Minister of State for Scotland. He should have got on with it ten years ago. Now we are told that we are to have a large-scale area in the North-West—[Hon. Members: "The North-East."]—yes, the North-East—I will come to the Northwest in a minute—a large area in the North-East. What is the difference between this and the development area concept that the Government destroyed when they were returned to power in 1951? They are doing exactly the same thing, namely, recreating large units for development purposes, such as were destroyed because at that time the Government said they were wrong. But they are leaving out substantial areas.
I have only just had an opportunity to make a brief examination of this and I see that the whole of west Durham, one of the most vitally weakened areas as a result of the decline in the mining industry, is excluded. Areas like Crook are outside. I know that my hon. Friends will have a great many questions to put to the Secretary of State about the way these boundaries have been drawn, but, so far as I can make out, we are to have three types of area.
There is to be the basic area where help is given now, the development district where we shall have some type of assistance, and a third tier superimposed where we shall have a growth zone with a particular form of public investment, which we have not yet been
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able quite to comprehend from what the Minister told us. Is this the concept? Are we now breaking up these powers to have three different groups and types of area out of which this expenditure is to be met?
I ask a question about Scotland. Looking quickly at the map, I see that a number of areas in central Scotland are included, but some are left out which I should have thought qualified just as much as those which are in. Is Dundee included in these new growth points or not? That is an area where there is a substantial traditional industry and substantial unemployment. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, is Dundee in?
Mr. G. Brown: It is out. If they do not tell us. we shall tell them.
Mr. Callaghan:Here is a clear case of an isolated industrial area which is on the end of a whole industrial complex and which depends on a traditional industry which has been in considerable difficulties. We find that this area is not to be included for the purpose of special Governmental assistance. We note what the Government have said.
The Secretary of State referred to the Toothill Report. I quote what the Toot-hill Report said three years ago:
"It is clearly not possible to institute full-scale regional planning with production programmes for each industry except within the framework of a national plan; and this Britain does not have."
The whole lesson which must be drawn by hon. Members and the country as a whole is that these areas will not finally prosper until, as Toothill says, regional planning is invested within the framework of a national plan which must be created.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) will have much more to say about this, and a number of my hon. Friend will wish to do so if they are able to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, later in the debate.
I turn to the question of the programme and extra costs over the next five years which the Government have undertaken and the commitments which are proposed to be made on our resources. I list some of them. The Chancellor said yesterday that he would give us some figures, but he gave precious

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few, as we found when we looked carefully at the report of his speech this morning.
He gave a figure for roads of £360 million which he said would increase to £475 million at constant prices, but that is not the figure which a number of newspapers were consecutively using on 29th October, the day that the Minister of Transport announced his latest instalment of the programme. The figure then used was £690 million. Maybe the newspapers dreamed it up, but it is very odd that they should all have had the same answer to the same dream. I can only assume that it came from Governmental sources. It is important that the Chancellor should reconcile these figures, so that we may know whether we are talking about a £475 million or a £690 million programme.
The only other figure he gave in monetary terms was for education. He said that was £370 million at constant prices. No allowance was made for any increase in prices. Maybe it is about right; it is impossible for me to say. These are the only figures he gave in terms of money yesterday. Would he think it fair to put hospitals at £300 million? What about the cost of the additional housing when he puts that up to 400,000? Would it be fair over a five-year period to say that there should be about £500 million extra? What about the schools programme, £120 million extra for that? What about the B.B.C. second channel, plus colour television, plus the transfer from 405 to 625? How much is to be put in for that? I have seen astronomical figures quoted.
As he wants to take us into his thinking, would he tell us what the cost of the TSR2 will be? Will it be £500 million? I have seen suggestions of £1,000 million and £400 million. Let us put it at £500 million.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: Over 15 years.
Mr. Callaghan: Over 15 years, is that so? Is this the way in which the Government's defence programme is created? We are now to have a weapon which apparently will not be finished for 15 years, which is designed to fit in between the rundown of the V-bombers
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and the run-up of Polaris. When is Polaris to be finished? I presume that we shall have it at the turn of the century at this rate.
Mr. Gresham Cooke:The hon. Member has been quoting astronomical figures. I was referring to the moment when the first pound was spent on the planning of the aeroplane to the time when it comes finally into production.
Mr. Callaghan:I am glad to have this reinforcement of my request for a White Paper which does not just contain two figures spoken out of the corner of the Chancellor's mouth but which gives an accurate assessment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Reginald Maudling):I am considering the publication of a White Paper on the lines which the hon. Member suggests. I think it a very good idea, but I repeat what I said yesterday. Would he then publish figures for his proposals?
Mr. Callaghan: I have not finished yet. I have a rather long speech to make and I will make it in my own time.
What about Concord? Would 1,400 million dollars be about right on present estimates? For a new aircraft carrier we are told £60 million will be needed. What is the figure for Polaris? It seems to vary from day to day according to which Minister is speaking.
There is another transfer payment which is going to cause some bother to the Chancellor when he is constructing his Budget. That is the obligation he has undertaken in respect of local authorities. He is undertaking a responsibility in respect of local authorities that they will be able to raise money through the Public Works Loan Board. This obligation in monetary terms will require him in his Budget to raise at least £200 million as a minimum or £500 million as a maximum. Of course it will. Why in the Financial Statement every year do we have below the line figures? Of course this is a transfer payment. Everyone recognises that it is a transfer payment, but it will affect the nature of his Budget, or does he say that it will make no difference whether they raise the money on the market or from the Treasury under the aegis of the Public Works Loan Board?
Mr. Maudling:It will make no difference whatever to the use of resources, and it is on the use of resources that the Budget is based.
Mr. Callaghan: I did not say resources. I particularised, I was quite categoric and talked about transfer payments. I fully understand that it will be a responsibility which the Chancellor will have to carry on the Budget, and he knows it. He says that it will be a good idea to publish a White Paper.
Mr. G. Brown: He said it may be a good idea, but he is only considering it.
Mr. Callaghan: This is not a very revolutionary thought. I raised the question on 24th January, 1962. I asked the Chief Secretary whether we could have a White Paper setting out all these liabilities and commitments. It was in the debate on the Plowden Report. I think that the House would be interested to know what was the Chief Secretary's reply. He is now the Home Secretary. He said:
"I can tell the House that our minds are not set against publishing at any rate some of the results of the long-term surveys".
In words which presage the Prime Minister, he said,
"Our aim will be to give the House and the country as much information as we reasonably can. … I attach enormous importance to creating the widest possible understanding of the realities about public expenditure."—[Official Report, 24th January, 1962; Vol. 652, c. 229–30.]
If we are told twenty months later that the new revolutionary concept for growth has resulted in the Chancellor still thinking about whether he can publish a survey, I have not much confidence in his capacity to carry out the rest of it.
How will they pay for this? There is a difference between the Prime Minister's speech and the Chancellor's speech. The Prime Minister says that in order to pay for it we shall need an overall increase in national productivity by 4 per cent, or 4 per cent, plus and then we can embrace all the programmes. What does the Chancellor say? I am with the Chancellor about this. He said yesterday that the growth rate needs a 3.2 per cent, yearly increase in productivity. The Prime Minister tells us that it needs a 4 per cent, growth rate
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in productivity. These are very substantial figures and very substantial differences.
I ask the Prime Minister what the reconciliation is. If we measured this in terms of the gross national product, it would be a very substantial difference running into many millions of pounds. Is there a reconciliation or is it that the Prime Minister, like some of his predecessors, is finding it a little difficult to get these concepts wholly clear and to understand the difference between productivity and production?
Sir Alexander Spearman Sir Alexander Spearman (Scarborough and Whitby) rose—
Mr. Callaghan:At the moment I am dealing with a simple arithmetical difference between the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, and if either of them cares to correct it I shall be delighted to hear him. I doubt whether they can correct it. I believe that there has been a confusion in the Prime Minister's mind between what he called overall national productivity and the expansion rate of production. There is a close relationship between the two. We can have a substantial increase in production without a corresponding increase in productivity for a short time. Conversely, as we have had in this country, we can have a latent increase in productivity waiting to be absorbed while we have very little increase in production. I tell the Prime Minister that there is a difference between the two. I think that the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House share many characteristics; they are both extremely likeable persons. But one characteristic which neither of them has is the ability to understand the difference between productivity and production. The Chancellor does, thank heaven.
We are going through a period of rapidly expanding production, and it is rapidly expanding because it follows a long period of stagnation. This is the classical situation in which one expects to get an increase in productivity. If we did not get it now, we never should. It is being achieved during an upswing in what the economists call—and I apologise for using the jargon—the degree of capacity utilisation. It is rising at 3 per cent, per annum, the Chancellor said.

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All we need, he said, is 3.2 per cent, per annum. If the Prime Minister will allow me, I will adopt the Chancellor's figure, which I think is right.
But what the Chancellor did not say was why he thinks that it will continue to rise at a rate of 3 per cent, a year or, as he hoped, 3.2 per cent, a year in order to fulfil this programme. Look at the record. We have had upswings before. They usually follow a period of stagnation and they usually precede an election. We had it in 1953–54 and in 1958–59. O.E.C.D., of which the Chancellor is a distinguished member, has told us what the increase in productivity has been over the last decade. The organisation tells us on page 28 of its annual Report,
"In the United Kingdom, taking the ten years from 1950 to 1960, the increase in productivity was 2 per cent."
The Chancellor says that it is rising at 3 per cent, and that there is no reason why we should not get 3.2 per cent., but O.E.D.C. says that between 1955 and I960 it went up not by 2 per cent, but by 2.3 per cent. This was an advance, and it was accounted for by the increase in productivity which we got in the 1958–59 period following the terrible period of stagnation which we had earlier.
Now I come to the period of 1960–70, because the Chancellor owes the House an explanation here. I assume that he gave these figures to O.E.C.D. Anyway, O.E.C.D. says that he did. This is what I infer from the notes at the foot of the table. They show the increase expected in productivity in the United Kingdom from 1960 to 1970 not at 3.2 per cent., not even at 3 per cent., but at 2.8 per cent—and this can make all the difference between success and failure. It is a difference of many hundreds of millions of pounds in the decade.
I take it that these figures were supplied by the Treasury. We know that they have altered them and pushed up the rate, but I remind the Chancellor that when his predecessor published the White Paper on "Incomes policy—the next step", which was to be the bible For the trade unions, except that they thought that it came from Beelzebub, he said, "You are to proceed on the basis that the increase in productivity will be 2 to 2½ per cent.
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per annum." Was it a confidence trick on the trade unions then or is it a confidence trick on the people of the country now?
The Chancellor knows that he has absolutely no reason at all to rely on the increase in productivity which has been taking place for the last twelve months. He cannot rely on that for the whole period of carrying out his programme, and that is why I refer to these promises as confetti promises. What will happen when the economy hits the ceiling? Bottlenecks will appear. Obviously there will be a shortage of skilled workers, as there was on previous occasions. It is beginning now in certain areas, but over many other areas many skilled workers are still looking for jobs. When the economy reaches that point, plant is used to capacity and there is difficulty with stocks. The Chancellor knows that the odds are that the rate of increase of productivity will slow down again once we get to that point at which he is aiming for the next twelve months. He has no foundation for believing that a Tory Government will sustain a growth rate of 3.2 per cent, per annum.
His answer is that he hopes that sterling will not be an embarrassment. So do I. I believe that the defences which have been shorn up over the last twelve months by arrangements between the central bankers will be of assistance to a British Government during this period, but they are no substitute for long-term liquidity arrangements, and I hope that that aim will be pursued. The Chancellor hopes for a national incomes policy, and he is to consider publishing his White Paper. I shall have more to say later about an incomes policy. But these plans are no more than hopes. They have no backing from the past as far as the Tory Government are concerned. There is nothing in the past record of a Tory Government which could ensure that they carry out, or even that they have a reasonable hope of carrying out, these plans within a measurable distance of time.
Let us transfer what the Chancellor has said into terms of an individual family. They live in a terraced house in a small town—the house occupied by the householder and his family, a mythical character who rejoices in the name of Dawdling. One day Mr. Dawdling

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comes home, looks around, and says, "My word, this is a shabby-looking place, almost fit to be a museum. It has an outside toilet and no upstairs bathroom. Look at the furniture. Let us modernise the place. No. let us do something better, move out into the country, build a detached house, and get some new furniture: I am tired of going to Blackpool for my holiday. We will go abroad next year. I will not cycle to work any more. Let us get a new car" The family look at him in amazement and ask, "What has happened? We have not been able to afford these all these years. How shall we afford them now?" He replies, "I have had a bit of a bonus over the last few months." But, they say, "You will not be able to pay for it". He replies, "We can get a building society loan on a house. We can go to one of the discount houses for the car. We can get the furniture on hire purchase." They say, "But how are you going to meet all the payments?" He says, "I am filling in the football pool coupons every week, am I not?" His name would not be "Mr. Dawdling" for very much longer. It would be "Reckless Reggie".
The Chancellor knows that he is gambling with the future by accepting these figures in the vain hope that he can win a General Election. What is needed is a long-term growth of productivity—that is, in our capacity and efficiency of production. That is why we shall focus attention on Tuesday on some of the truths that seemed to come as a blinding light to the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade straight back from Brussels this afternoon, namely, on the development of science, research and education. These are the real methods by which to secure the long-term increase in productivity which is needed if we are to fulfil the plans that the Government have laid down.
What are some of these things? There will have to be the more efficient use of materials; the absorption of synthetic materials into the industrial system, and the absorption of new methods of control and selection and production. This means more than new machinery. Automation means more than new machinery. There will have to be the purposive allocation of resources by improving through technical
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and other education, the capacity, understanding and knowledge of the individual. There will have to be improvements in management technique. There is a need for research and development to be adequate.
These are the ways in which we shall get a long-term 3.2 per cent, increase in productivity which will enable us to fulfil the programmes that the Government have suddenly thrust on the country. It will not be done by vainly hoping that sterling will be strong enough for a sufficient time to enable us to scramble through. There must be a drastic reconstruction of the industrial and scientific base of the country. That is why the Labour Party has put down a full debate for Tuesday which I hope will enable us to focus attention on these essential means—the only means by which we can secure a 3.2 per cent, increase in productivity, or a 4 per cent, increase in expansion every year.
But Ministers are confident and buoyant. That is the depressing feature of the present situation. I find it frightening to see their buoyancy at present. These are some of the things they have said:
"There is a large building programme for the expansion of the universities, particularly in the teaching of science and technology …"
They have said that they would present—
"details of an ambitious five-year plan to improve and develop secondary schools… More and better teachers; more and better school buildings …".—[Official Report, 28th October, 1958; Vol. 594, c. 33.]
They have said this also:
"the prospect before us is encouraging. Industrial production has been rising rapidly during the year. Exports have been doing well…. Anyone who went to the Motor Show will have seen the particularly buoyant feeling right through that great industry.. employment has risen … there has been a fall in unemployment …".—Official Report, 27th October, 1959; Vol. 612, c. 72–3.]
This is all true—and it was all said in 1958. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Wilkins), who had a Sunday school upbringing, reminds me of the Moody and Sankey revivalist who used to sing—
"Tell me the old, old story."
One of the verses ran—
"Tell me the story simply. As to a little child."
Mr. W. A. Wilkins: "That I can take it in."
Mr. Callaghan: I hope that we shall not be taken in this time. A few months later the present Leader of the House, who was then the Chancellor of the Exchequer, came to the House in sackcloth and ashes and told us, in the early months of the following year, that our economy was moving into a phase of excessive pressure of demand. So he raised the Bank Rate, restricted hire purchase, and called for special deposits from the banks. Again he was like John the Baptist presaging the Prime Minister. He said that we must face the facts. So in that July he told the people the truth. Then we had a Bank Rate of 7 per cent.; we had a Customs and Excise regulator of 10 per cent.; he cut back the school building programme; he controlled lending by the insurance companies and by the banks. I do not know why the insurance companies are now putting out these great advertisements about being free to invest in their depositors' interests. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer was the person who controlled them. He got money out of them for the Export Credits Department. He knows all this.
Then, above all, came the pay pause, which bit very deeply into the minds of millions of workers because of its gross and total unfairness. Hon. Members opposite will never be forgiven for the way in which they tampered with the processes of collective bargaining without any agreement, interfered with arbitration, and visited hardship and unfairness upon tens of thousands of public servants and others.
I fear that this boom has started in the same way as the last one started and, given a Tory Government, it will finish in the same way when the General Election is over. We shall have all the old weaknesses. They will begin to show themselves again. There will be the bunching of investment. Public investment is now going up. The right hon. Gentleman told us this afternoon that private investment is now moving forward, but there will be a bunching in about twelve months' time. There will be stock building. It has already started. It is bound to have an effect on our balance of payments in the next twelve months. There will be bottlenecks in the construction industry.
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I draw attention to how the construction industry has moved over the last four or five years. The increase in non-house building has been four times as great as the increase in house building in the construction industry. The Government control, directly or indirectly, through various forces, about 60 per cent, of the output of the construction Industry. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, or whoever is responsible, sees this bunching taking place, are they ready to take any steps through priorities or planning to ensure that the construction industry does not become a bottleneck in the fulfilment of their plans? When I hear what they are ready to do in that direction, I shall begin to take this present attempt at these new plans seriously.
The next phase we shall move to is higher prices. We are already being told about higher prices which are arising from Government policy imposed upon the nationalised industries. The Government have insisted that the nationalised industries shall increase their prices in order to meet certain financial expectations that the Government want. This will have its consequential effect on pensioners, public servants and the rest. At a later stage wages will outstrip productivity. We shall go through exactly the same phase—we are already beginning to—as we went through last time. Then all the programmes will be cancelled. This is the record of past Tory Governments, and neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade has said anything at all during the course of this debate which differentiates what the Government are doing this time from what they did last time.
I come now to the question of an incomes policy, because this is crucial. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday, the concept of a fair incomes policy in the midst of national planning was accepted by the Labour Party at its conference at Scarborough, after a very full debate; but it must be equitable and it must take place in a period of rising production. These things are vital. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants an incomes policy that will be generally acceptable, he must tax capital gains; he must avoid all the untaxed profits which

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at present, because they are not narrowly construed as income, escape their proper share of taxation; and he must show that he is being fair and equitable in what he is doing.
Let me give one example. It is only one of many that I could give, but I select this one. Estate Duty is a clear case where avoidance is taking place to the tune of millions of £s. [Hon. Members: "Hundreds of millions."] Let us say "millions". I will give one short example. I will not carry the House through all the processes. Perhaps it would not be right to do so, because I do not want to advertise this overmuch. I will therefore give merely the bare bones of the scheme. An elderly man who has not long to live can, in exchange for a few signatures with an insurance company, pretty well halve his Estate Duty.
I will give the practical example of an estate of £200,000 on which the duty would be £110,000. By an arrangement with a life assurance company the actual duty is reduced from £110,000 to £42,000, and the £68,000 saved is shared almost equally between the insurance company for drawing up the policy and the beneficiaries of die poor man on his death bed for putting three or four signatures on three or four sheets of paper. It is as simple as that, and it can be done under various Acts which I do not propose to quote now but which must be well known to the Chancellor.
In fairness, I must say that a number of insurance companies will not touch these policies and will not have anything to do with them; but there are a number of insurance companies which are making a very good deal out of policies of that kind. The Revenue is losing, by this simple device, a very great deal of money. It is not people who have £50,000 or £20,000 who are doing it. It is people in the £200,000 or £500,000 class who are contracting such policies in order to escape their liabilities.
Mr. D. Jones: Cheating the law.
Mr. Callaghan: It is not cheating the law; it is an evasion of what the law undoubtedly intends, but it is not cheating—at least, not within the terms which the lawyers understand, although I
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imagine that a railway worker who is now claiming an increase in pay might well feel that it was cheating in the ethical sense.
The Prime Minister tried to impale me on the wealth tax. I suppose that he will, at least, agree that there is no doubt that the tax system is causing a great deal of concern. There is the incidence of taxation on companies and on individuals. There is evasion and avoidance, of which I have given only one example out of the many which could be given. There is the effect of the Purchase Tax on industry. There is the deeply unsatisfactory position of the householder who pays rates and of local government finance which has to be raised through the rating system. There is the general question of what passes as and is, in fact, income but which is not so regarded for taxation purposes but becomes capital and escapes taxation.
There is need for widespread reform of our taxation system. I am not the first to say this. It was said two years ago by the right hon. and learned Gentleman who is now Leader of the House. When he went to the Treasury, he told us two or three years ago that he intended to undertake the reform of the taxation system. He found difficulties in his way. We have heard nothing at all about it from the present Chancellor. The whole subject has died, as far as any public discussion or any proposals are concerned. We have seen no results of the review which the Leader of the House told us then he was undertaking.
It is against this background that I speak, and it is against this background that I insist that the whole concept of taxation, whether it be local taxation, national taxation, Income Tax, Surtax, Purchase Tax, tax on capital or tax on income, needs reassessment and reexamination. I have the Leader of the House as my ally in saying it.
But the Prime Minister, two days ago, asked me—this is the plain man speaking—
"… what on earth is the relevance, when one is trying to stimulate expansion, enterprise and thrift, of his tax on capital …?"—[Official Report, 12th November, 1963; Vol. 684, col. 43.]
I suggest that he asks the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let them have a little conversation.

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I did not produce this document, "Conditions Favourable to Faster Growth" prepared by the National Economic Development Council. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is chairman of that body. In paragraph 170, this is what is said:
"A wealth tax in one form or another exists in a good many countries. For example, a net personal wealth tax has been in operation in Sweden for many years."
Now I come to the sentence which bears on the question, "What on earth is the relevance of this to expansion?". The paragraph goes on:
"The introduction of a wealth tax here would be a controversial step"—
I do not deny that—
"but it may have a useful role in any major review of taxation related to a programme for growth".
Hon. Members: Answer.
The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): The hon. Gentleman says that it is controversial—that is admitted—and it may have relation to growth. I would like to hear him say how his proposed tax has a relation to growth.
Mr. Callaghan: I suggest that at the next Cabinet meeting there be put on the agenda two items: one, a definition of productivity and production; two, how a wealth tax might influence growth, in conjunction with a general review of the tax system. The right hon. Gentleman might ask the Minister of Labour about it; he also sits on the N.E.D.C. and is responsible for this publication. He might ask the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, who also is a member. Let him ask them what they think of these economic concepts.
I am all in favour of straight talking—[HON. MEMBERS: "ANSWER."] I am dealing with the Prime Minister at the moment. I am in favour of straight talking, but, if one wishes to go in for straight talking, one had better be sure of one's facts before one starts. One should know what one is talking about and, before throwing out challenges, one should be sure of one's ground.
The Prime Minister:The hon. Gentleman has not told us what his proposal is All I was asking him to do was to explain his own tax on capital.
Hon. Members: Answer.
Mr. Callaghan: I quite realise that the Prime Minister would much prefer to discuss our programme, which is relevant, rather than the Queen's Speech, which is not. I say this to him: I do not think that the people of this country are as silly as he seems to imagine. What we need is a review of all the systems for raising revenue, including local rates, from top to bottom. That is what we want, and nothing should be excluded from that review. Certainly, if there were a Labour Government, I would hope that such a review would be undertaken, and I believe that it could bring relief to a great many ratepayers if we were to reassess some of the artificial distinctions which now exist and which ought not to be brought into play. If I am asked what the details are, I reply, "Elect a Labour Government. Let us make the review. Let us get at the books and see what is in them." [Hon. Members: "Oh."]There has been a good deal of cooking going on in the last few months, with the rate of productivity increased from 2.3 per cent, to 3 3 per cent, without any manifestation of alteration in the objective facts.
There ought to be, there must be—I hope that no one will be frightened of it—a complete review of the taxation system of this country from top to bottom. [Hon. Members: "Answer the question."] Let some of those people who have been dodging a good deal of tax liabilities during the past few years face their liabilities at last.
The man on P.A.Y.E. has to pay on every penny of overtime. There is not a penny which goes untaxed for him. There is a great deal of wealth in this country which evades or avoids or dodges our tax system. If I am challenged on that, I will go on for a long time giving more and more details. [Hon. Members: "Answer the question."] I know that the Prime Minister has got a lot more reading to do. We hope that he will take N.E.D.C. in his stride, or, at least, that he will try. Then, when we have these challenges, we shall, perhaps, know that they are based on more secure foundations.
What does the country need if we are to have the 4 per cent, growth rate, to which we have been committed for a

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long time but to which the Government just seem to be waking up? What it needs, above all, is planning. Choices must be made. I take the construction industry as a typical example. We must ensure that there are social priorities as well as economic priorities. We shall not be able to meet the demands inherent in modernising Britain until we have created a national plan which will match our resources to our programme. There are no signs of this at present. There are no signs in the Gracious Speech that the Government are yet ready to grapple with the problems which must be faced if we are to undo the consequences of the last twelve years and if this museum piece is to become a modern and up-to-date country ready to face the 1960s. It is because the Gracious Speech contains no reference to and Ministers have no plans for fundamentally dealing with this situation that we believe that the Government should go to the country at the earliest opportunity.
4.50 p.m.
Mr. R. H. Turton:The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) began his speech with a complaint that there has been too much electioneering. I think that during the whole of his speech he was indulging in excessive electioneering. However, he made one mistake. He has been making speeches in the country in favour of a new tax, a wealth tax. Are we to understand that he has now withdrawn the suggestion which he made in the country and that he is now merely thinking of revising the whole taxation system? I hope that when he addresses the House on another occasion he will answer that question.
As I see it, in the fourth year of a Parliament we are bound to have a certain amount of electioneering in the Gracious Speech. This is unavoidable, but, I personally think, regrettable. There is one subject on which I think it very unfortunate that there should be electioneering, and that is the distribution of industry and the reconstruction of the North-East Coast and Scotland I think that in the area which I know, the North-East, all the inhabitants, whatever their party affiliation, have been heartened by the appointment of my right hon. Friend the President of the
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Board of Trade to his new duties to look after regional development in the area.
Equally, I think that all of us, whatever our party affiliation, will welcome the announcements which my right hon. Friend has made in connection with the White Paper published today. We are in a certain difficulty here, because until I came into the Chamber I had no knowledge of what was contained in it. However, as one who was born near Tees-side and whose constituency borders on it, I think that I can say that we are all concerned about the demoralisation which has resulted from the maldistribution of industry, with many people, especially young people, out of work, and all of us want to put the matter right.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said on Tuesday:
"… if we are to have an efficient nation we must have an efficient transport system"—
I have always taken the view that this is one of the keys to what is wrong with the North-East Coast—
"and that goes for both rail and road or the combination between rail and road."—[Official Report, 12th November, 1963; Vol. 684, c. 41.1
I think that my right hon. Friend left out the thing which to the North-East Coast is most important of all, and that is air transport. Unless we have a good modern airport for national and international flight in the North-East we will not attract industries to the area.
I have had a quick look at the recommendations in the White Paper. I notice that the Government propose to make a large grant for the improvement of the Wolsington Airport, near Newcastle. That will be very valuable to Newcastle but of very little value to Tees-side. Tees-side requires the Middleton St. George aerodrome, which is now used by the Royal Air Force.
I am glad that the White Paper suggests, in rather guarded tones, that local authorities might be given the opportunity of taking over this aerodrome. I beg the Government to remember that if they ask a fancy price for this R.A.F. aerodrome it will be very difficult for local authorities, which have grave financial burdens to bear because of their own employment difficulties, to take over the aerodrome and provide the required number of inter-continental,

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national and executive flights. I beg the Government to remember that it would be a very gracious gift if they gave the North-East Middleton St. George aerodrome fully equipped for local air services.
I wish to say only this about the railways. The North-East Coast has fairly good rail communications, but it does not make sense, at the same time as we are trying to improve the rail communications in the area, to close down one of the commuter services, namely, the line between Middlesbrough and Whitby, where a great many people live today and will live in the near future. Many parts of the line are very difficult of access in winter. I realise that there can be recourse to the transport users' consultative committee and that my right lion. Friend the Prime Minister gave a clear undertaking that in England and Scotland alternative means of transport must be offered. However, I ask the Government to bear in mind that the North-East must not merely have its direct links. It must also have adequate commuter services if it is to regain its prosperity.
My main concern is with road communications. I know, because my constituency lies in the approach to it, that the Minister is improving the road from Stockton northwards. I believe that the road from the Great North Road to Stockton is the most dangerous road in the country. It bears a very heavy traffic burden. Not a week passes without an accident happening on the road, especially where it goes through my constituency, and frequently they are fatal accidents. I have been asked by my constituents to press on the Government the need to make the road from the Great North Road to the North-East safe and efficient at an early date, because prosperity will never come to the North-East again unless that road is made into a double carriage way.
We have talked about facilities. We must remember that the North-East has depended, and will always depend, on the prosperity of shipping and shipbuilding. Unless the Government fight for British shipping, which is now being attacked by flag discrimination and the very unfair practice of the Americans in protecting their own shipping so that their exports are carried in American
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ships, we can have no great hope for the revival of shipping and shipbuilding in this country.
Today's debate rests on trade, and I wished to speak today because, as far as I know, this is the first Gracious Speech for five years which has had this direct reference to trade and Commonwealth trade:
"My Government will continue to attach great importance to the maintenance and development of commerce between Commonwealth countries."
Mr. Ellis Smith: It is time they did.
Mr. Turton: Certainly.
I listened with attention to what my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade said about our share of Commonwealth trade. We are apt to forget in this House that the Commonwealth is still our best customer. Even in 1962, when there was great anxiety in the Commonwealth about what would be the effect of the Brussels negotiations, we exported to the Commonwealth £1,220 million worth of goods whereas to the Common Market countries we exported only £780 million worth of goods. There are tremendous possibilities of expanding Commonwealth trade if we set our minds to it.
This country is, of course, a world trader. We must encourage our trade with Europe, with America and with all countries. We have a certain priority with the Commonwealth, but it has been lacking in recent years. Comparing figures of Commonwealth trade for the last five years, I find that imports into the Commonwealth from all countries other than Britain have increased by £1,780 million during that period, and yet our exports to the Commonwealth increased by only £13 million. This means that in the battle for the expanding market of the Commonwealth, we have been singularly unsuccessful.
During the same period, American imports to the Commonwealth increased by £508 million. Japanese and German imports also have increased very largely. We have to remember that these other countries always face the difficulty of a higher tariff barrier than we do. Australia has preferences on 80 per cent, of her imports, averaging 10 per cent., and yet those other countries have been able to overleap that preference. I ask

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the Government what are their plans for improving this Commonwealth trade, on which they have laid such marked stress in the Queen's Speech, a fact about which I am pleased.
Some people say that the reason why our Commonwealth trade is declining is that British agriculture has been doing so well and expanding and, therefore, we no longer need the produce of the Commonwealth. I have taken the trouble to refer to the position during the last six years. Taking the four main categories of food imports which compete most closely with British agriculture—cereals, meat, dairy produce and fruit—our imports in these categories during the last six years from foreign countries have increased by £153½ million, whereas our imports from Commonwealth countries during the same period have declined in value by £15½ million.
Two lessons are to be drawn from this. It destroys a fallacy which is at the back of the minds of many people who would like to help the Commonwealth, but consider that this is an inescapable transition which is bound to happen with the expansion of British agriculture. In fact, however, whilst our agriculture has expanded, so has our capacity of consumption. We could have increased our imports from the Commonwealth in those four categories by the same amount as foreign countries were able to do. It may well be that in negotiations or, perhaps, for other reasons, we have preferred the foreign to the Commonwealth food.
I turn now to the ways in which we could tackle this situation. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade explained in his speech how much attention had been focussed on our trade with Europe and what great results have flowed from it. I do not quarrel with the attention which any right hon. Friend has paid to Europe, but could not similar attention be paid to Commonwealth trade?
I have the greatest admirataion for my right hon. Friend, who has done magnificent work in Europe, but let us consider the position last year. We gave grants to four trade missions from Europe, but we gave grants from the Board of Trade to only one trade mis-
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sion from the Commonwealth. Why could not we have given equal grants to the Commonwealth as to Europe?
Sir William McFadzean is doing a splendid job with his Export Council for Europe, just as Lord Rootes is doing in his Western Hemisphere Exports Council. Why is it, however, that Britain, with all her traditional history and close sentiment, does not have an export council for the Commonwealth? This is not, as I discovered somebody saying at a seaside resort, a matter for the Commonwealth. This is primarily a matter for British industry and the British Government. Surely, we should start as soon as possible, under a leading industrial figure, an export council for the Commonwealth.
I am sure that the whole House is delighted that the ecomonic survey which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested at the Commonwealth Economic Committee has been so well taken up by all members of the Commonwealth—a sort of Paley Report. We must, however, go a good deal further than that. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal has suggested a Commonwealth Economic Development Council. Just as we have a National Economic Development Council, which is succeeding, so, too, with the agreement of the Commonwealth, surely we could have a development council formed by the Commonwealth countries to advise on the development of the Commonwealth.
In last week's newspapers, I was delighted to see my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works suggesting that we should look again at the possibilities of a Commonwealth development bank and Commonwealth development association. He went even further and spoke about a Commonwealth university. It is high time that we re-examined these different ways of getting more trade and more links between this country and the Commonwealth.
Let us, however, face the fact that until we look at the whole of our trading position and the international agreements under which trading is conducted, we can have no real hope of any great expansion of trade. In other words, under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, our trading arrangements

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with the Commonwealth are bound, whereas free trade areas or common markets have complete freedom to trade as they will.
The time has come, or is coming very soon, when we must have another look at the international agreements dealing with trade. The time is approaching when we shall get to the conclusion of the Kennedy Round. I hope very much that we get success there, because it would be in the interests both of Britain and of the Commonwealth for the Kennedy Round to succeed. I have, however, very grave doubts. I believe that the negotiations on the Kennedy Round in May will be a repetition of the negotiations at Brussels. I would ask the Government to tell the House quite frankly what are our plans if there is failure over the Kennedy Round, because if there is a failure, it means that under the present method of trading arrangements the G.A.T.T. has got to be revised in order to deal with the new methods and systems of the present world bloc trading and those Common Market and free trade areas.
I believe that the time is approaching, if it has not already arrived, when we ought to be thinking in terms of mutual tariff reductions. I think that that is the best way of dealing with a world divided into blocs and trading systems. That would involve a revision of the G.A.T.T., but not its disappearance. It would mean that the G.A.T.T. would be authorising different countries bilaterally to make agreements for mutual tariff revisions—countries or groups of countries. When we bear in mind that the year before last about 100 bilateral agreements were made, it is quite clear that we want to have another look at the G.A.T.T. because those conventions were made by countries which were signatories of the G.A.T.T.
The next and last point I want to talk about on this revival of Commonwealth trade is the need to secure more commodity agreements, starting off with the Commonwealth commodity agreement and extending that to other countries which are willing to join. That would be a valuable forerunner of world commodity agreements. I say that because I believe that the American Government are usually disinclined to go in for world commodity agreements. I believe.
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therefore, that we must take the initiative. I do not want anyone to misinterpret what I say. I should be very happy if we could get a world commodity agreement straight away, but I do not think that we shall have great success in that direction unless we prepare the way by Commonwealth commodity agreements.
Equally, of course, we must take our part in sponsoring our own plans for the disposal of Commonwealth surpluses to the under-developed areas of the world. It is quite true that I.F.A.P. has started its pilot scheme. It is very valuable. We have sent 40,000 tons of our own barley to the hungry in the Middle East. But the test for the world will be how quickly we can develop these schemes for bringing relief to the hungry, under-developed nations.
I think that the great difficulty from which this country has suffered and from which it is still suffering is that we are the bridge between the highly industrialised countries of Europe and the underdeveloped countries. This has been a period when the rich countries are becoming richer and the poor countries are becoming poorer. Therefore, for that reason, we have found that our exports to the poorer countries have not increased as fast as they should have done. In my view, it shows that to a certain extent we have failed to discharge our responsibility on that bridge.
I believe that we must now make a great effort, as a nation, to try to solve this problem of the rich and the poor countries. I do not believe that this is merely to be done by aid. I believe that trade is far more important than aid. Dean Acheson said that Britain had lost her Empire but had not yet found her r61e. That, I believe, to be our role and our future, and for that all of us may have to make great sacrifices in the coming years.
5.15 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Crosland: May I begin by saying how very strongly I agree with the closing remarks made by the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton)? It is one of the most ironic and tragic facts about the world today that, as he said, the rich nations are becoming richer and the poor nations poorer. This is what

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Marx said would happen within countries, but it has not happened in most democratic countries; the two extremes have tended to draw close together towards the middle. But it has happened as between countries.
I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this poses for Britain, in particular, the major moral problem facing us over the next few years. I am very glad he said that if we are to solve the problem it may involve sacrifices. It cannot be solved merely by expressing nice sentiments. It means sacrifices of goods which would otherwise be enjoyed by the British consumer.
I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said about commodity agreements—possibly Commonwealth ones initially, preferably world ones. I am certain that relations between ourselves and Europe and between Europe and the Commonwealth and between the trading blocs generally cannot be solved until much wider commodity agreements come into existence. One of the good things which came out of the E.E.C. negotiations was the demonstration of how essential this was if these questions were going to be settled.
I am sorry that the Secretary of State has had to leave the Chamber as I wanted to say one or two things about him. I think the right hon. Gentleman did an excellent job in the Brussels negotiations, and I am delighted that he has taken on this new job, though I do not think that he will have time to take much part in it. I want to comment on one or two things which he said. I think that the regional imbalance in Britain is the most serious of our internal problems, and I hope that his new measures will contribute something towards solving it. I am very doubtful, however, concerning what he said about the co-ordination of these measures.
One of the major troubles over recent years has been that there has been too little co-operation between housing, the siting of new towns, the location of industry, and transport. These matters have been divided between four different Ministries whose separate efforts have been wholly inadequate, and I do not think that the inter-departmental committee about which the right hon. Gentleman
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spoke this afternoon sounds a powerful enough body to introduce the co-ordination which is so necessary.
I must say that a striking feature of the Secretary of State's speech, and as far as one has been able to glance at them of the two White Papers, is that they represent a frightful condemnation of the Secretary of State's predecessor at at the Board of Trade. They represent a confession that a completely new policy is needed. They represent a major reversal of the whole basis of the Local Employment Act, 1960. Moreover, the growth-point theory when first advocated from these benches was not received with any enthusiasm by the Government. I think the fact that this new policy has had to be adopted shows what a failure the previous Board of Trade activities were.
I want to turn to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He gave us a very agreeable knock-about speech yesterday when what the House wanted to hear was a more serious speech analysing the promises now coming from the Government. Before I come to the central point which my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) advanced as to what these promises amount to, I want to make one or two particular remarks about the Chancellor's speech. The first is this, which may have gone unnoticed in the rumbustious language in which he made his speech. As compared with the Prime Minister's speech the day before and the recent announcements in the Press, the Chancellor's speech represented a great scaling down of the prospects in front of us if we have to endure a Tory Government for some years ahead. In the Prime Minister's speech, what was stressed was the enormous prospective growth in public investment, and, indeed, this is what has been stressed in most Government speeches in the last few weeks. We know the figures from the recent White Paper on public investment and that we are to get an increase in the years from 1962 to 1965 of 7 per cent, in the first year, 20 per cent, in the second year, and 7 per cent, in the third year, and all this, we were warned by the Chancellor, and by others, would mean a very heavy burden on our resources. Indeed it would, 7 per cent, and 20 per cent, and 7 per cent, in three successive

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years. But then, when we came to the Chancellor yesterday, all these figures had got mysteriously scaled down, because the figures for total public expenditure, yesterday he said, would amount to an increase of only 4 per cent, a year between now and 1967.
There is a very considerable difference between an increase of 7 per cent., 20 per cent., and 7 per cent, in public investment over the next three years and a figure of 4 per cent, for the increase in the total public spending, and what we should like to know, and what has not become clear from the Chancellor's speech at all, is what items in current Government spending are going to be so far below 4 per cent, that die public investment programme can be so far above. Something, clearly, is going to be scaled down, but it was not clear from the Chancellor's speech what it was.
My other preliminary comment is this. Clearly, when next April comes, the Government are going to take great credit for not introducing a pre-election Budget. Both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have said that we cannot look forward to early or substantial reductions of taxation. One can already see the Chancellor coming down here on April—whatever date it will be—next year preening himself on his moral virtue in giving away no substantial concessions—some sweetenings to some carefully selected groups, no doubt—but no major concessions, and showing how virtuous he is. One does not want to be over-cynical, but the fact, of course, is that we had the pre-election Budget this last April as a precaution against an election this autumn.
Another point I should like to make about the Budget to which we look forward next April, in which there will be no large concessions, is that its relative severity will have nothing whatsoever to do with these ambitious schemes of social spending of which we have been hearing recently, nothing to do with increases in education spending or housing spending or social spending generally. If we look at the increases in spending which have created the situation in which the Chancellor would make no concessions next April, they have contained practically no element of this large increase in the social spend-
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ing of which we have been hearing. These are still pie in the sky, and it is other spending which has led us to the situation where we have these warnings on tax reductions.
I come to the major question dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East. How can the Government pay for these lavish promises which are now pouring out in such abundance? Everybody would agree on one thing. They can be paid for provided, and only provided, we get this famous 4 per cent, growth. But the question is, what prospect would we have under a Conservative Government of getting this 4 per cent, growth? What indications are there in the speeches which have been made or in the Queen's Speech that we are going to get 4 per cent, growth?
One must say, as my hon. Friend said, that there are no obvious indications. Under this Government which have been in power for a period of twelve years the average rate of growth has been 2½ per cent., and there is no obvious reason why this Government should suddenly be able to galvanise the economy into a 4 per cent, growth rate. These years were favourable years. World conditions were exceptionally favourable. There was a vast increase in world trade. We in Britain have had an enormous improvement in our terms of trade. Many other countries in a situation similar to ours had faster rates of growth. Yet on average, over twelve years, we had this exceptionally slow rate of growth of 2½ per cent. We now have the same men in the Cabinet and on the Treasury Bench. The Prime Minister, the Leader of the House, the present Chancellor have all been in the Cabinet during the whole of that time, and there is no apparent reason whatsoever why this same group of people, pursuing the same policies, should suddenly galvanise the economy into much more rapid growth.
The Chancellor dealt, or attempted to deal, with this yesterday by saying that, whatever may have been the record over the last twelve years, productivity had now reached the point where we were in sight of the 4 per cent, target. He said, as my hon. Friend recalled, that the productivity rise had increased to nearly 3 per cent, a year and had only

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to be pushed up a little more and then we should be on the target. However, the fact is, as my hon. Friend pointed out, that productivity is going up rapidly now because we are in a classic—almost a textbook—boom where capacity is being more fully utilised, hence costs going down and productivity going up. There is nothing surprising about it in the slightest. It happened in 1953 to 1955 and again in 1958 to 1959. But on both previous occasions after the boom period with its rapid increase of productivity, we ran into a crisis followed by a classic Tory deflation, when productivity fell back again. Who can say that this is not going to happen again? What fundamentally has changed?
The Chancellor, at this point, took refuge in the N.E.D.C. Report and quoted paragraph 152 which suggested that there had been some underlying improvement in productivity. He found this sufficient for great optimism for the future. But the paragraph goes on to say that this is not something which can be relied upon for an automatic and dramatic improvement in our situation.
The plain fact is that unless we get some fundamental change in the economic policy pursued during the last twelve years we are not going to get a dramatic change from 2½ to 4 per cent, growth. I will set out what I believe must be done if we are to achieve 4 per cent, growth.
The first thing we shall have to do is to effect a permanent improvement in the balance of payments. The basic reason for our failure as a nation to grow as other nations have grown in the last few years is that every time we have a boom it ends in a balance of payments crisis. This is the fundamental cause of the stop-go policy, and that stop-go policy is the fundamental cause of our slow growth rate. So unless the Government can convince us that they have effected a permanent improvement in the balance of payment situation we have no reason to expect a 4 per cent, growth.
At present the balance of payments position is comparatively favourable. Exports, as the Secretary of State said this afternoon, are comparatively
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buoyant. There has been some improvement in our competitive position, an improvement due largely to the inequitable pay pause of the late Chancellor, which kept British wages down, as, of course, it was fundamentally intended to do, below the increase in wages in other countries. So for the moment, as a result of this, our balance of payments position is, as I said, comparatively favourable. But what the Chancellor has not made clear at all is what he expects to happen in the next six months or in twelve months. Will there be a large spurt in imports? And if we do get one, will it end in the same crisis we have had time after time in the last twelve years?
I personally do not believe, despite the fairly rosy picture at the moment, that the Government have produced any major fundamental change in our balance of payments situation, and I believe they have not because they have not operated on what is the crux of the whole matter, which is the capital account.
Here I follow interesting series of articles by Mr. Conan in the Westminster Bank Review on the subject. Although, like America, we have had over the years a surplus on current account our gold reserves have not gone up equivalently—just as the American reserves did not. On the contrary, they tend to go down. So the surplus in the current balance is more than offset by a deficit in the capital account.
Faced with this situation, I am certain the Government must produce a long-term policy for the capital account. The United States has done so in the measures announced by President Kennedy last July, including the controversial, but, I think, absolutely right and necessary, interest equalisation tax. Until this Government have produced a policy for the capital account comparable to that produced by the President last July, they cannot claim that there has been any permanent improvement in the balance of payments, and there is no reason at all, therefore, to believe that we shall not once again next year follow the same old dreary cycle that we have had before—balance of payments crisis, cuts, and deflation at the end of the boom. This No. 1 pre-condition of 4 per cent, growth has not been fulfilled.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley:Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that the policy that both sides of the House have in mind of increasing aid to overseas countries would in fact make the problem far harder, and that the way we could help them would be to lend them more capital which in itself has the effect of making it even more difficult?
Mr. Crosland: No one has suggested either in this country or in the United States that the improvement in the capital account should be made at the expense of aid—very far from it. The export of private capital is the crux of the matter, certainly not aid to the under-developed areas.
The second pre-condition if we want to get 4 per cent, growth is that we must have some increase in the amount which we invest in this country. The Chancellor, in his very complacent speech yesterday, pointed out that our ratio of investment to National Income had gone up since 1951 from 14½ per cent, to 18½per cent. I should hope so too! In 1951, we were spending 11 per cent, of the national income on defence—a fact consistently forgotten by this Government; we are now spending only 7 per cent. In other words, in this period of 12 years, we have saved on defence 4 per cent, of the national income, and it would have been a scandal if that had not gone into investment. So the fact that we have had some improvement is not surprising at all. It would have been incredible if we had not.
But most people, I think, on both sides of the House, still take the view that our investment as a proportion of the national income is too low. It is lower than it is in most other comparable countries. Private manufacturing investment, which the Chancellor did not mention yesterday, is almost certainly lower now that it was two years ago; he did not mention the fact that there had been a two-year period of almost total stagnation in private manufacturing investment. Most people would agree that although investment is no panacea there has to be some increase in the proportion which it bears to the national income as a whole.
Of course, we shall have an investment boom next spring—this is accepted by
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everybody—but it will be superimposed on an economy which is already running very flat out and the most likely result is that it will push us into a balance of payments crisis and the whole thing will be cut back again. The point that I want to make, and I fell very strongly about this, is that the Government have shown no signs whatsoever that they have a long-term policy, first, for keeping investment steady and secondly for raising it permanently as a proportion of income. So in my view, No. 2 pre-condition of 4 per cent, growth is not fulfilled under this Government, and there is no sign that it will be.
The No. 3 pre-condition, much referred to yesterday from the Government's Front Bench, is more spending on education. I agree profoundly with what the Secretary of State said this afternoon, that if one could relate rapid growth with any one single factor in different countries it would probably be education more than any other. I think his figures were highly suggestive that of the various reasons for the growth of production over a certain period in the United States, education was the most important single reason.
The Chancellor yesterday took great credit for telling us that the proportion of income which we are spending on education in this country had gone up from 3 per cent, to 4 per cent, and would go up to 5 per cent, before the end of this Parliament. I would hope so, too. There has been an enormous bulge in the birth rate in the years of which he was speaking, and therefore a huge increase in the child population, and if that proportion had not increased in the way that he described it, we would be giving less education to every child in the country than we were 12 years ago. The Chancellor always makes the wrong kind of speech. When he ought to make a serious speech he makes a knockabout speech. When at the Tory Party conference he ought to have made a real electioneering speech he confined himself to solemn platitudes.
Despite the higher proportion of educational spending, nobody in the country is satisfied with the educational position. I personally think that the Newsom Report is fundamentally more important than the Robbins Report. I think that the picture that emerges from the

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Newsom Report of slum schools in particular and the handicap suffered by those children in terms of reading ability at a given age, is appalling.
At any rate we have to increase the amount that we spend on education to a much higher level than it is now in this country. Of course, here we are faced with Government promises. The question is how far we believe these. E cannot believe it of this Government which 18 months ago cut the programme of the University Grants Committee to such an extent that for the next three years a smaller proportion of children of 17 who are willing and able to go to the universities will be able to do so than two years ago. It is a fantastic situation when we consider it. It comes out in the section in the Robbins Report on the bulge. This is one sentence which I should like to repeat, because it is such a damning condemnation of the Government, that a smaller proportion of people with the ability to get into the universities and who want to get in, will be able to do so in the immediate future than in the immediate past, as a consequence of the cuts made by the Government and defended by the Home Secretary in a disgraceful speech 18 months ago.
The last pre-condition—and I will be brief because there are other hon. Members who want to speak—is that the Government really should believe in planning and indulge in planning. Here I should like to pay very strong tribute to what N.E.D.C. has done in the first period of its life. I believe that it has forced the Government and also management and trade unions to face up to a lot of unpalatable facts, and I think that its whole psychological propaganda effect has been entirely to the good. It has even forced the Government, although not the Prime Minister, to face up to the question of a wealth tax. I should like to add one word to what my hon. Friend said about the wealth tax.
The facts are perfectly plain. The N.E.D.C. Report, which my hon. Friend quoted, considers a wealth tax on the Swedish model. My hon. Friend, I think rightly—and I have supported this for years—suggested that the Labour Party should also consider a wealth tax.
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roughly on the Swedish model. There is not the slightest doubt about what we have in mind. I refer hon. Members opposite not only to the speeches made by my hon. Friend but even to a book which I wrote and to an article in the Bankers Magazine about six months ago by Mr. Michael Stewart. These are the facts for everyone to see.
But despite the existence of N.E.D.C. and its excellent, although in the Prime Minister's case imperfect, attempts to educate the Government, the fact is that we still do not have anything like effective planning in this country. We have no little N.E.D.C.S able to play a highly constructive part in prodding individual industries in their efforts. And even big N.E.D.C. is so under-staffed that it is not capable of making the really detailed long-term projections which the French and Japanese planners have been making.
Until we get a much larger N.E.D.C. there will be no effective planning. I have serious doubts as to whether the Government take N.E.D.C. seriously. I am interested to know whether the Government consulted N.E.D.C. about the present plans for increased public expenditure. I find it impossible to believe that N.E.D.C. could conceivably approve of this bunching of new plans and promises just in the pre-election period.
I am, therefore, quite unconvinced that any of the essential pre-conditions of a 4 per cent, growth rate are currently being fulfilled by the Government or would be by a Tory Government which succeeded them.
It is said that somehow the Opposition are cynical and over-sceptical when we refuse to believe that the Tories can now galvanise the economy into quicker growth and when we refuse to believe that they will suddenly become enthusiasts for much more higher education, much more public housing and so on. Why is this regarded as so cynical and sceptical? I am not one of the most extreme partisan politicians on these benches, but I find it quite impossible to convince myself that the Government, which have had a 12-year period of exceptionally favourable world opportunities, will suddenly change their spots. I do not believe that they are all evil villains but I do not think that they will behave in a very different way in

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the next decade from how they have in the previous ten years.
This is not only my view. I think that the country will turn from the Government's promises and talk about modernisation, and will show its total disbelief by turning to new men pledged to new measures.
5.40 p.m.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley:First, I should like to say how glad I am to see my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmilian), who will probably reply to the debate, sitting on the Government Front Bench. Many of us on this side of the House, and probably many on the other side of the House also, felt for a long time that that was where he should be. We are all very glad to see him there now.
The hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) made, as usual, a very enjoyable, constructive and easy-to-listen-to speech, and I shall touch on many of the points that he made as I go along. I was grateful to hear his tribute to N.E.D.C, which I seem to remember was greeted with considerable scepticism when it was set up. I thought that the only time the hon. Gentleman really let his argument down was when he tried to make out that the likelihood of having lo bring in a very austere Budget next April was some diabolical and subtle electioneering trick on the part of the Tories. If we had had a "giveaway" Budget next April, would this have been correct? We cannot be accused of getting it wrong whichever way we do it. This insistence on trying to make electioneering points can be carried too far.
I should like briefly to deal with the point made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday, when he said:
"If—"
the Socialist plan
"had been adopted, then … instead of the long stagnation which followed … we could have had a gross national product this year £3,000 million higher than we have."—[Official Report, 12th November, 1963; Vol. 684, c. 24]
As to this idea that somehow, through incompetence or lack of will, the Government have failed to allow vast sums to fructify in the pockets of the
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people, which would have put our dreams within reach, it is hard to be told this and then to be told that our estimates of future growth and prosperity are all nonsense and cannot possibly be expected to mature. The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. Either he could have made more money over the past few years, or we will not be able to do so in the future. But the argument cannot be used against us both ways.
The truth is that it is impossible to see how any Government could have got round the economic crises which have arisen in the past, and in particular the one in 1961 when the balance of payments went to such a position that no plan or action either before or after could have got us out of it. The Tories do not like "stop"; they like "go". The Tories have never thought of "stop"as a policy which we could employ. It is not good for anything. It is not good for unemployment, which we hate just as much as does the party opposite. It is not even good for the Stock Exchange. If it is thought that the Tory thinking is geared to the Stock Exchange, it surely cannot be said that "stop" is good for share prices.
The real reason was that in 1961 we allowed our costs, productivity and incomes to rise to a state where we were uncompetitive in the world at large, and we could in no sense have continued until we had stopped and waited and let the other countries which are our competitors catch up with us. What has happened is that over the last few years the prices and costs of the countries which are ourcompetitors have risen to the extent that we are now thoroughly competitive.
As far as I can see—this is the answer to the hon. Member for Grimsby—provided that we keep ahead in terms of competitiveness with all our competitors, there will be no reason for further balance of payments crises to arise in the future, and we should be able to maintain the expansion.
It is interesting to remember that nearly all the speeches in the economic part of the debate on the Address last year dealt with the question of exports and how to get more exports, and yet this year that subject has hardly been

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mentioned, because the export performance of this country is certainly satisfactory, even if one could not describe it as extremely good. I think that we can draw some credit from this. I pay tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House, who laid the foundations which made this possible. On him fell the extremely unpleasant and difficult task of stopping the rise in our costs until our competitiveness caught up and became level with that of our competitors. This has been ably developed and expanded by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and used very cleverly to bring us to a state where we are still selling, and selling well against our competitors.
I turn now to the question of the large increase in public investment. I do not think that anybody, looking at the figures, could deny that it will be a very heavy increase indeed—an increase in public service investment of 55 per cent, and an increase in nationalised industry investment of 75 per cent, over the next nine years in real terms. That is a very heavy increase indeed.
As the Chancellor said, total public expenditure is expected to go up by about 4 per cent, per annum over the foreseeable future. He said that it is necessary to match that by a similar increase in the growth rate. I suppose that those who think of it as a spending spree will refer to this also, to quote words used a year or two ago, as "public affluence amid private squalor". That is surely the complaint that I remember, turned round the other way.
There is something rather bogus about right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite dressing up as the guardians of the pound, as watchful people trying to keep an eye on Government expenditure and trying to make sure that we do not overreach ourselves with all our programmes. Their role is certainly very different from what it was a year ago.
The essential question is: can we afford this great increase in public expenditure? Of course we can afford it. We can afford a good deal more if we wish. But it is quite evident that if we do not achieve the growth rate which is necessary, there will have to be sacrifices in some other sector of the
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economy, and it is obvious that whichever party happens to be governing the country in the years to come no public programme stands to yield a very great saving if it is to be cut. There is no sector that I can see where a large cut can be made in the future. So it will inevitably be personal, private expenditure which will be cut, because that is the only thing which any Government in the future can cut. That means more taxes.
I think it fair to say that that is what happened under the Labour Government. The programme of public investment and public expenditure rose faster than the gross national product, and therefore, the rate of taxation had to be increased, and the standard of living actually went down in those six years. This might easily happen again. Indeed, it would happen again if the country did not achieve that 4 per cent, growth rate which is so necessary.
I emphasise that this programme is what the people want. This is shown by the overwhelming response to Robbins and to other major proposals for increases in education and other expenditure. The Government's programme has been welcomed by people in all walks of life and it is right that they should have it. But it is also fair to point out that the consequences, if we cannot maintain a growth rate of 4 per cent., will inevitably be that tax rates at some stage will have to go up.
As has been said, and, I think, generally accepted, an incomes policy is the only real guarantee that we can achieve all this because, if our level of prices starts to rise to become too near or even higher than the price levels of our competitors, the only thing to do in the short term is to hold our incomes at a certain level until we can again safely expand. Therefore, there will be tremendous strain upon any incomes policy which is in action.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) said that the pay pause bit deep into the minds of people and that it was a grossly unfair and inequitable action. I want to examine that statement a little. I notice that since before the war, in real terms, discounting the change in the value of money, wages have gone up by 79 per cent, and dividends only 8 per cent.

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This makes one wonder whether it was unfair to restrict the increases some wage-earners were to get while, at the same time, profits and dividends in many cases were actually falling.
We had our debates at the time, for feeling was very strong and it is fair that these issues should be the subject of party politics. But, in retrospect, I cannot really accept that the pay pause was all that unfair. I agree that the tax system is ripe for reform in many directions. There are evasions I would like to see stopped. But that does not mean to say that it could be done overnight, and I think that the hon. Member will find that he has a very big job ahead of him if he thinks that this can be put right in a year or two by any Labour Government that might have a chance to have a go at it.
It is a very difficult problem and all parties should co-operate to solve it. But it does not affect the question of whether the pay pause of two years ago was fair or unfair. I would, therefore, like to see the details of the Labour Party's incomes policy. We have heard so much about it that we would like to have details of the wealth tax. That, also, is important. But far more important are the details of their incomes policy. How would right hon. and hon. Members opposite, when there was pressure on our balance of payments, hold down incomes and restrict the normal machinery which might throw up bigger incomes than the economy could bear at a particular moment? Would they not have to have recourse to the same methods my right hon. and learned Friend the present Leader of the House had to use when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer-methods which were amply justified and, indeed, would be amply justified if used by a Labour Government in similar circumstances? I would like to hear what ideas they have, which they have not told us about, on how they would cut back income increases which go beyond our capacity to pay at the time they occur.
There is one group of incomes one must refer to at this time. It seems very odd that increasing efficiency in industry is always thought to mean, and has always meant, increasing incomes for all those who work in it, whether workers, managers or shareholders. But increasing
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efficiency in farming has not had that result. I will prove that with figures.
I understand that over the last ten years the gross national income has risen by 78 per cent., the cost of living by 28 per cent., but that farm incomes in total have only gone up by about 17 per cent. That shows that the farmers, who have increased their productivity year by year, have not even kept up with the cost of living.
This point has been made already in the debate and it seems to me that the Government must consider this problem seriously for the future, because it is ceasing to be equitable that levels of income that no one said ten years ago were too high are being eroded to this extent. We will need to examine very closely how we can increase farm incomes in times to come because of this very unfair comparison with industrial income. I think it odd that the party opposite has never made this point. Here are people who are going down year by year much faster than any other section of the population. I am surprised that we do not hear more about it from the party opposite.
My final point is about the very large investment being planned, both in the public and private sectors. It is essential to make certain that what we invest is well and correctly invested. I think there is a tendency in British industry, and in many of the structures the Government now build, to over-design to an unnecessary extent. I think that in many of the things we are making we tend to allow too great a margin of design; we tend to overdo it to a considerable extent.
In my profession—civil engineering—I have seen lately too many examples of where perhaps 10 or 20 per cent, could have been saved on the cost of a structure simply because we were building altogether too strongly. I think we have to get competition into design as well as in other aspects of national life. I am certain that in building roads and motorways in particular large amounts of money are being spent which could be saved. If we cut 10 or 20 per cent, off the programme in this way we could afford to do a great deal more. These are big figures that we are talking about. I hope that the Government will think carefully how we can introduce more

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competition into the design of many of our structures, so that we can at least ensure that we are getting full value for money. I welcome the Gracious Speech and I hope that all it contains may be enacted soon.
5.58 p.m.
Mr. Ellis Smith:Today we listened to the Secretary of State making a reasoned case in support of a new policy which, provided that it is carried out, means a complete reversal of Government policy of the past 12 years. Providing that they really mean business, then, to a very great extent, they will meet with a certain amount of support in the country But my doubts lie in the fact that they have undermined the confidence of the country in their intentions, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) indicated.
The Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development said that the Government were to embark on a policy of the modernisation of Britain, which included British industry. He said that this was to be based on increased mechanisation and computer management, leading to a process of automation.
If this is to be consistent and in harmony with mid-twentieth century scientific ideas, the machinery of local and national government must be capable of translating those ideas into reality. Unfortunately, we have already lost 12 years.
He went on to make what I thought was a change from the years of retreat from planning. Those of us who had become downhearted and discouraged by the retreat from planning—and this applies not only to one political party—and who had spent the best part of our lives in large-scale industry of the kind to which the right hon. Gentleman paid tribute and who have always known that Britain could hold its own in the modern world only by this kind of policy, have long argued that our people needed to be far better educated and the machinery of government modernised.
He went on to say that there would be work on an increased scale towards mechanisation and an expansion of trade and that it was about time that there was if we were to maintain our standard
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of living. I, for one, hope to live to see the day when it will be greatly increased and not only maintained. To bring that about we have to have a larger share of world trade. It is in our heavy industries, which are responsible for manufacturing the products which find markets abroad, that the credit lies for maintaining the strength of this country.
He rightly paid tribute to the breaking of all records by the motor car industry. I welcomed his observations, but I wondered whether we were not putting too many of our eggs in one basket. Ought we not to be planning for even higher figures? He—I ought not to say "he"; I believe in maintaining standards in the House of Commons, for we profit greatly by doing so; I ought to say, "The right hon. Gentleman"—the right hon. Gentleman said that he intended to apply this policy in his new position. He reminded me of my close association with giants like Sir Stafford Cripps and Sir Kingsley Wood and of how they worked almost night and day and undermined their health. Any Minister in a modern Government who is doing his job properly must have regard to his health. I intend to say something later about this subject, because I have seen too many from both sides of the House and in the Civil Service paying dearly for working too hard.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the need for continuity of growth. I wondered whether that included continuity of employment, for I speak for the workers. I was delighted when my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby said that the Newsom Report should be implemented before anything else. My own daughter is among those teachers teaching classes of 40 or 50. The result is that the teachers are overworking and cannot do justice to their pupils. If one child gets measles or influenza, they all do. Conditions of that kind are almost indescribable.
I welcome the new outlook towards education and it will have my wholehearted support—and I include the prodigious increase in expenditure. I hope that all the universities, especially the professors, will remember the sources of all the wealth and will remember where their incomes come from and the

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importance of the exports upon which we all depend.
This week, the House of Commons has made a great contribution towards the restoration of realistic politics in this country. We were drifting towards the personification of politics and I dreaded that. I had seen it develop in other countries and it is only a matter of degree. The main issues of life are sidetracked, as are the fundamental differences which should be reflected in the two political parties. The Smart Alecs of the Press, aided by similar types in "Panorama" and "Gallery", were encouraging the trend of this attitude. I am pleased that the House has reversed that trend and that now, as the result of the selection of the Prime Minister and the capacity and experience of my right hon. Friend, the trend has been completely changed in the elected House of Commons. Perhaps I regard this more seriously than most hon. Members because in Stoke-on-Trent 32 years ago it fell to my lot to deliver a mighty blow against the growth of Fascism in this country and to keep out of the House a man leading that growth, a man who had had all of life's benefits.l
Last night, as I was lying in bed thinking of what to say today, I recalled a friend of mine who was one of the most respected of hon. Members, Mr. Tom Johnston. He wrote a book, Our Noble Families. This morning I went to the Library, but I was courteously told that there was no copy there, nor anywhere else in London. I went to my Scottish friends and I was supplied with a copy of The Scottish Miner. On page 2 of that book there are extracts from Tom Johnston's book and from the speeches of the Prime Minister.
In this, the last Session of this Parliament, I welcome speeches by the Prime Minister and by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. The Prime Minister issued a challenge to this side, and we should accept that challenge without any equivocation. We should welcome it, for reasons that I shall indicate later. I was pleased with the observation made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in reply to that challenge. He said, "We will play the ball and not the man." That has cleared the air and cleared
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the road, and we now know where we stand. We have two men—the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition—representing parties which are fundamentally opposed. At last, after a great deal of vacillation in this House, the issues have become clear without there having been an introduction of personalities. We know where we stand and we can proceed to examine the various policies, and the issues with which we are faced.
In my view, based on experience, we need a new look both at Government machinery and at our economic situation. One of the Amendments on the Order Paper to my mind represents a constructive road forward. It reads:
"But humbly regret that the Gracious Speech contains no proposals for a comprehensive economic policy that would enable our manufacturing industry to increase the volume of output, reduce the prices of exports, reduce the costs of raw materials and overhead charges, and obtain a greater percentage of world trade; and that no proposals are made regarding the urgent need for a Ministry of Production and Economic Planning."
In my view, that is the constructive road forward which we urgently require if this country is to hold its own in the world.
I very much regret that although the Labour Government had a good record in 1945 and 1946 it made two or three mistakes. I found, when I was involved in accepting responsibility for construction, that if one made a mistake it was better to admit it as soon as possible and then make amends. In my view, one of the mistakes that we made was to terminate the functioning of the British Commercial Trading Corporation, which had done such a good job in the world, and the other was to terminate the functioning of the Ministry of Production and to merge it with the Board of Trade. Our economic situation is such that to burden the Board of Trade with all the responsibilities outlined by the President this afternoon is in my view a fundamental mistake. Two Ministries are required.
I do not join with some Members who have suggested that we should have a number of new Ministries, but on this issue we urgently require a Ministry of Production and Economic Planning, in addition to the Board of Trade. We have arrived at a situation in which powerful and well organised private

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interests are exerting more pressure and exercising more control than in any other industrial country, and we shall find it increasingly difficult to hold our own in the world if this policy is not completely reversed.
A number of Government Departments have issued excellent publications—some weekly, some monthly and some quarterly. I have before me some excellent publications of the Central Office of Information, dealing with the growth of investment, the need for action with growth, and trade expansion. The Board of Trade has produced some of the finest statistical information in the world. We have the Statistical Digest and the Board of Trade Report, and the Journal is improving each month. We also have a number of publications from the Economic Division of the Treasury, including the confidential quarterly bulletin on the economic situation. There are also private publications published by the banks and a number of large industrial establishments. All these provide an excellent background for setting forth the kind of information which is required by a Ministry of Production and Economic Planning of the type that I am advocating.
I welcome the announcement that our exports have been rising, but in my view they have not risen nearly enough, considering our increasing responsibilities. I have before me an excellent report published by Barclays Bank, dealing with the situation in Japan, and pointing out that Japan has made great headway because it has applied, in a greater degree, the kind of policy that I am advocating.
Since the Government, at the most, have only 10 months to carry on, it is permissible to envisage a situation in which there will be a Labour Government. When we become the Government I hope that we shall show that we mean business and that we are determined to translate into concrete realities the theoretical ideas which we ventilate in the House, thus making a great contribution towards solving the economic difficulties which Britain faces.
It was in 1944 that the Trades Union Congress first advocated a policy of 400
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planning, with the setting up of a National Economic Ministry and the adoption of a policy of planning—the merging of the Ministry of Production with a Ministry of that kind and also the organising of an investment board. In my innocence I thought that we meant what we said. I had a number of documents in drawers, which I brought out time after time in order to put forward constructive policies. I worked night and day to translate into legislative proposals what we had said for years and years on these matters. Little did I realise that a man who is now in another place was, according to the Financial Times, taking steps to see that the ideas that we were putting forward were not translated into reality. I hope that this time we shall be on our guard against that kind of thing.
I take second place to no one in my regard and respect for our civil servants. Those with whom I was associated would have worked night and day to assist me, and I would not be a party to uttering a word of criticism against them. But never let it be forgotten that five Permanent Secretaries used to meet at lunch every Friday—and some of us know what went on at those lunches, with the collaboration of the person who is now in another place.
I hope that when we become the Government all our young men who are given office will learn the lessons of the past and will be on their guard, and will remember that although we all respect the conscientiousness of civil servants there are always certain types who are not prepared to sink their individualities and ideas for the welfare of the country and in support of the elected Government.
I wish to refer to one or two matters which have appeared in the Press and which have given me some concern. According to today's Guardian, some discussion is to take place, first of all behind the scenes and then between representatives of the Government and Mr. George Ball, the American Under-Secretary of State, who is now touring Europe, on some economic problems. According to the report, the West Germans exported to the Soviet bloc last year goods worth 717 million dollars while Britain's exports to that bloc totalled 310 million dollars. It

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appears that the West Germans exported to the Soviet Union alone nearly 210 million dollars' worth of goods while Britain's exports were valued at only 117 million dollars. The Guardian also contains a leading article in which some excellent observations are made about these exports. It says that if a Labour Government were to come into power in Britain they would probably want to do more to stimulate East-West trade than is at present being done. The leading articles states:
"Some countries, notably, France, Italy, and Japan, are showing more initiative than we are …".
I have with me the report of some British manufacturers who recently toured the Soviet Union and other Eastern bloc countries. They advocate a great increase in the amount of trade being done between Britain and the Soviet bloc. They point to the trading potential that exists.
In addition to the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions, the union which I represent is extremely disturbed about the number of ships that are being ordered from abroad. I wish to make it clear that we do not take a narrow view towards this. We are prepared to make all the necessary allowances, but, despite this, something must be wrong when, for instance, the British Petroleum Company—in which, I understand, the Government hold a big percentage of shares—has ordered ships to be bought abroad. Is this so and, if it is, may we have an explanation?
In an effort to ascertain the facts we have asked for a searching inquiry to be held so that, when armed with the facts, we in the unions may help to share the responsibility for preventing orders from going abroad. We are prepared to consider constructive proposals to avoid our losing orders, but we want the facts so that we may act with a full understanding of what is happening.
Mr. Cyril Thompson, chairman of a large shipbuilding organisation on the North-East Coast, is reported to have said recently at the launching of a ship:
"… serious competition is now being faced from Japan … It is a country with a much lower standard of living, and, consequently, lower production costs, not only for the ship itself, but also for the steel and machinery and, in fact, nearly everything that
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goes into it. Obviously we have no intention or desire to try to meet this competition by lowering our standard of living. Equally obviously, this competition must be met even if it means some form of protection."
The trade unions are willing to accept their share of the responsibility for dealing with this sort of competition so long as the facts warrant action being taken. It is mainly because of this that we are asking for a searching inquiry to be held.
In this connection, several questions need answering. Is it true, for instance, that present steel prices represent a fair cost to British shipbuilders? Is it a fact that British steel sheet can be bought cheaper on the Continent of Europe than in this country? Are Continental ships' plates quoted at prices well below those prevailing here? Is the price of the equipment needed for our ships fair? Why are we not exporting more steel and, consequently, lowering our prices? Why do we not have a greater share of the world's exports of steel? I ask these questions on behalf of my constituents. I am optimistic about the future, so long as we can approach the second half of the twentieth century and the problems that face us in the spirit that cur forefathers faced their problems; with knowledge of the need to modernise our industry, the machinery of government, and to make all these improvements consistent with the modernisation that takes place.
6.25 p.m.
Mrs. Judith Hart: My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) always has a great deal to tell the House which is thoroughly apposite to the points under discussion. He always manages to electrify us with some of his information and today has been no exception. However, I know that he will forgive me if I do not closely follow his remarks, but turn immediately to the Scottish side of the question we are discussing today.
I am glad to see the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade in their places, because I have things to say which are of relevance to them both. Three hours ago we were presented with a White Paper. One might have expected it to take one more than three hours to gain an understanding of such a document and of the immense

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constructive steps we were told the Government proposed to take to solve the problems of Scotland. This is not so.
The reason is that the document is so full of platitudes and proposals with which we are already familiar that, in part, it merely represents a gathering together of plans which have already been on the stocks for some time. Where the White Paper makes new proposals we find another category of suggestions but, alas, we are equally accustomed to these in that they, too, have been contained in previous documents, from Cairncross to Toothill, issued in Scotland. I will, therefore, base my remarks on my reading of the White Paper in this short time.
What the White Paper has to say and, more particularly, what it does not say, is of great relevance to my constituency because I was in Scotland yesterday in the village of Forth where a pit closure was announced by the N.C.B. I discussed this matter with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade at the beginning of this year and have been drawing his attention to the forthcoming closure for some time. He will remember the somewhat acid tone of the recent letters I have been sending him. He can take it from me that there are 350 men who, on 29th November, will have no jobs in the village of Forth.
The test of this White Paper and of the Government's policy towards all the unemployed workers of Scotland is to be judged by what it offers for people like my 350 constituents in the village of Forth. What is it likely to offer them? Nothing, unfortunately, because they do not happen to come neatly into one of the growth points which the Government draw so nicely on their map. They are, geographically, some distance from the north Lanarkshire growth area which the Government envisages. In terms of travelling, they are impossibly remote from that area, at least in terms of the kind of travelling opportunities that exist in the area now. They are also distant from the Livingstone growth area.
The first question that comes to mind about the White Paper is to what extent the Government are deliberately and unequivocably writing off parts of Scotland which do not happen to fit into
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their neatly defined growth areas. I urge hon. Members to study the map and the whole acreage covered by the little dots that now represent development areas. We see how distant many of these areas are from the identified growth points. We are dependent on what the White Paper has to say about the extent to which these development areas, not included in the growth areas, are to continue to get assistance from the Government—or, indeed, are to begin to get some assistance by way of the provision of new jobs.
What has the White Paper to say about it? On page 27 it reassures us, as the Minister himself did this afternoon, by saying:
"… by forming focal points of especially vigorous economic development, particular growth areas will help to create a favourable climate of growth in the wider catchment areas associated with them."
The Minister stressed that there will continue to be the same measures of assistance for development districts as exist at the moment, but what does it mean in the context of the level of growth we have now, or the level of economic growth the Government envisage, somewhat optimistically, during the next year—if they continue in office?
I want here to quote a sentence in a letter from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade—and this is why I am so glad he is here—written to me on 8th October, on the question of the need for provision of new industries to serve this village of Forth, in my constituency, which is representative of so many villages in Scotland. The Parliamentary Secretary wrote:
"… there is only a limited amount of steerable industry …"
This is the crucial point that must concern us in any consideration of policy for regional development in the country as a whole. The extent to which the Government are likely to succeed in building up economic growth, even in limited areas of the country, will depend on the amount of industry at their disposal that they can hope to attract to the area. What will be the position for the development districts outside the growth areas within a context of "a limited amount of steer-able industry?"
It seems to me that the White Paper makes a fundamental error, one which we expect from this Government. It is

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an error they cannot avoid making, implicit in their own philosophy of economic development and their attitude towards the freedom of private industry to do as it wishes. All this is implicit in what is in the White Paper, which has not anywhere in it any commitment whatever to provide the number of new jobs necessary for Scotland.
It is true they go a little further than before. They try, for the first time, to calculate the number of new jobs that ought to be provided. For them, that is, indeed, revolutionary thinking, because when, only in July, we debated the Scottish economy, the Secretary of State for Scotland refused to admit the desirability of trying to calculate an employment target. Still rejecting Toothill, he said that one could not possibly either calculate a target or commit oneself to meet it, nor would it be desirable to do so.
In the White Paper, the Government begin to make an assessment of the number of new jobs needed, though I cannot agree with the total they arrived at. The Secretary of State for Scotland will, no doubt, have seen—as, perhaps, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade has—a P.E.P. pamphlet on "A Development Plan for Scotland", with which I have the honour to be a little associated, in that a group of people we gathered together, of whom I was one, were partly responsible for the thinking behind it.
I do not want to go deeply into the differences of opinion on the employment target between the two, but it is a difference of 50,000 new jobs. There is also a difference in the time scale, in that we believe that it is necessary to have 150,000 jobs by 1969, whereas the White Paper calculates 100,000 by 1971. The difference lies partly in the longer time scale which the Government envisage and partly in our own much more stringent requirement of frictional unemployment. We believe that we should allow only between 1.5 per cent, and 2 per cent, for frictional unemployment.
Leaving that aside, let us consider what the Government say about the ways by which they propose to meet even this figure of 100,000 new jobs by 1971. I hope that one of the Ministers will correct me if I am wrong—my
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reading on the White Paper has, of necessity, had to be hurried—but nowhere in the White Paper can I find a commitment to meet that target of 100,000 new jobs. Nowhere do the Government say, as we on this side say, and as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in Glasgow, in September, that they will "tailor the measures to suit the need" and see that the employment target is met.
That is the crucial aspect of the whole problem. So long as one recognises that one is uncommitted to meet the employment target, for so long does one avoid the implications of commitment. The implications of commitment are that one has to be prepared to produce, by various means, the level of economic growth that alone can provide the right kind of economic content. The Government are certainly not prepared to take the measures we on this side think must be taken if the N.E.D.C. figure of 5 per cent, is to be reached.
Further, one must accept that if one cannot succeed by all those measures of improving the infrastructure that we long ago recognised—providing better houses and better roads, and providing attractive amenities—and by those measures of assistance to private industry used by the Board of Trade—in inducing enough private industry into the development areas and the growth points to meet the target of new jobs, it must be a public responsibility to see that the new jobs are provided by public enterprise.
That is the crucial difference, and it makes nonsense of the Government's policy, and makes our policy the only realistic one if one accepts commitment to the number of jobs calculated to be necessary. The people of Scotland do not need to be told this. They know perfectly well that to say how many jobs are needed without committing oneself to doing whatever is necessary to meet the target is just so much electioneering nonsense.
I should like the Government to consider another rather different aspect of the implications of their policy on growth areas. For example, let me ask them about the increase in the size of the new towns in Scotland which is proposed in the White Paper. One of the

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new towns is, of course, in my constituency. As hon. Members will recognise, mine is a constituency of tremendous contrast. Yesterday, I had two engagements there. One was to attend a meeting to consider the Forth pit closure. The other, at the other end of the constituency, was to attend the opening of the new research reactor at East Kilbride. There, one is surrounded by the success story of Scotland—as it is—and I absolutely agree that new towns are infinitely the best way of providing the kind of environment that is likely to be most successful in attracting new industry.
That is so, of course, but, if that is the truth, the implication is that the Government should be prepared to create more new towns in more areas in Scotland so that they can multiply the number of probable growth points there to meet the needs of the villages that are at present being left out in the cold.
When the Government propose, as they do, very considerably to increase the size of the East Kilbride population, do they fully understand the social and planning implications of what they are doing? East Kilbride was first begun with a target population of 45,000. That went to 55,000, and is now up to about 75,000. From the White Paper, I assume, although the figure is nowhere clearly stated, that the population will grow to over 100,000. One cannot plan a new town on that kind of basis. What is to happen when the population reaches a figure of over 100,000 when the original planning of the structure of the town, the master plan of the town, was based on a population of only half that number?
If we are to build a town of over 100,000 population, we must plan a city centre. We have to plan for the right kind of facilities of all kinds—sewerage, roads and the rest. In terms of modern planning requirements, one cannot suddenly change one's mind in midstream, because one cannot go back to the beginning. That is the truth about the creation of new towns.
Of course, it is cheaper to extend the size of existing new towns and ask the population to put up with the social disadavantages that will result. It is
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cheaper than to start more new towns, because it is the original expenditure of the capital needed to lay down the basic structure of the town that costs a great deal of money. This is what the Government are not prepared to undertake. The whole policy, indeed, is nothing but a collection of words strung together.
I should like the House to consider East Kilbride and the north Lanarkshire growth area which is proposed in the White Paper. North Lanarkshire desperately needs to undertake a great deal of urban redevelopment. This is well-known. This is one of the areas where the results of nineteenth century industrialism are all too clear today. A great deal of money needs to be spent on pulling down the old buildings and erecting new ones to make it an attractive area.
One of the problems of redevelopment is that there will have to be an overspill of population from north Lanarkshire to other parts of the county. Have the Government recognised this? They know about it because the Lanarkshire planning authorities have indicated this probability to the Scottish Office. There is no indication of it in the White Paper.
I would suggest that in my part of Scotland the ideal way of meeting the requirements, first of those villages and small towns which are in the present development areas and which have little hope of attracting new industry in the context of what will clearly be a Board of Trade emphasis on growth areas, and meeting, at the same time, the needs of overspill in a population which will spill over from north Lanarkshire to southern Lanarkshire as redevelopment takes place and meeting the social problems of East Kilbride if it is asked to expand beyond reasonable limits, is by accepting die suggestion for another new town in south Lanarkshire. This has been proposed by the county to the Scottish Office, and of course, it is the answer but it is too expensive, and this is why the Government do not put it forward.
May I turn now to another point? When the Government succeed in inducing a new industry into some of these areas in Scotland it is relevant for the public to consider what kind of industry it is and how it uses public

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money spent on encouraging it to go there. The White Paper quotes the success story of East Kilbride in statistical terras. It points out that by now 8,000 new jobs have been created there. But 10 per cent, of those jobs disappeared overnight last week when 800 workers were told that there would be no jobs for them as a result of the closure of the Holyrood factory in East Kilbride. This has important implications for the whole future policy of the Board of Trade in. relation to new industry.
Most hon. Members will not know the background. In a few words I will try to summarise it. I know that the hon. Lady the Member for Renfrew, East (Miss Harvie Anderson) knows a good deal of the background of the knitwear industry. We have discussed it together in the past, though not necessarily from the same point of view. She will know that three years ago the Holyrood knitwear firm was spread out in several factories in west Scotland. It decided to concentrate production in one factory in East Kilbride, and one other, and it moved into a new factory in East Kilbride which cost £500,000.
One would like to know how much of that £500,000 represented a Government subsidy to the firm. At the time when it concentrated its production in East Kilbride the firm was taken over by Thomas Tilling, a London-based finance holding company. It was Tillings which over theyears found the difficulties becoming greater and greater until last week it announced the closure. When it made the announcement of the closure—and this is why so many trade unionists in Scotland and those of us who are concerned with the success of attracting industry to Scotland are worried—the chairman said:
"Success in this venture depended upon ability to recruit adequate qualified management and to train and develop an efficient labour force. Unhappily, events have now shown that despite the most persistent efforts we have not been able to meet these two requirements satisfactorily."
The implication of this statement was that management in the west of Scotland and the level of efficiency of labour there fell below the standard required in modern industry.
This we could not accept or believe, and we could not believe that the firm meant it in that way or would have
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made such an unqualified statement. The Provost of East Kilbride and I therefore met the management this week and discussed the reason for the statement and for the closure of the factory. I want to put it on record that Tillings assured us that the firm intended no reflection on the level of efficiency of management or workers in the west of Scotland. It said that its particular difficulties arose from the impossibility of obtaining technical management from within other sections of the knitwear industry for its own factory in East Kilbride.
These difficulties, in their turn, arose from the fact that only a tiny proportion of the industries under the control of Tillings were involved in knitwear. In other words, the firm did not have a pool of skilled technical management and workers at its disposal from which it could draw to start off the new factory. There was also the fact that the takeover itself—as so often happens—had been accompanied by a number of departures from key management positions in Holyrood, including one or two highly qualified technical people.
Miss Harvie Anderson: We both have a common interest that there should be continued employment in this industry, but it is true to say that the facts lying behind this difficulty was that there was here a concentration of several small works and it was not possible to bring in workers who had already been trained. The company therefore tried to push up output to meet large orders before it had time to train its labour force. This is no reflection on the workers but it is a fact that the firm was trying to put out a substantial output suddenly from employees who hitherto had not possessed this skill.
Mrs. Hart: I completely agree with the hon. Lady. But I do make some severe criticism of Tillings and some rather less severe criticism of the Board of Trade. The criticism is that Tillings does not seem to have recognised that a finance company operating from London, which is essentially a holding company, cannot carry out a new enterprise in new areas unless it follows what has been: stablished by economists as being the essential correct way of doing it.

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I discovered, for example, on Monday, to my great astonishment, that the kind of thing which economists have established for the last ten years as being a prerequisite for any firm which knows what it is doing when it moves into a new area has not been familiar to Tillings at all. Hon. Members will know of the Luttrell studies on industrial movement. Luttrell has carried out over the last ten years a series of case studies, where one factory moves from one place to another or where a parent factory sets up a branch factory.
The conclusions drawn from these studies have, I think, been generally accepted nationally. The conclusions enumerate certain prerequisites for success. One of these is effective and detailed pre-planning. This was not successfully carried out at Holyrood in that too much was attempted too quickly without enough of the right technical resources. Secondly, there is the prerequisite of having a nucleus of highly trained management. This, again, Tillings did not have, because it had lost some of its best people and did not have available a pool from which to draw replacements. It did not have any other part of the hosiery industry attached to them.
Thirdly, and most important of all, the desirability of having a pool of highly-skilled supervisory and shop floor workers to train the new recruits. Of course, they suffered from the fact that they were concentrating in one area and losing some of their former workers. Knitwear is the kind of trade in which a new recruit has to be taught by an experienced hand who knows the tricks of the trade. It is not possible to take short cuts. To me, it is inconceivable that public money should go to a company of this kind which fails to meet its social obligations to the extent of neglecting this kind of economic fact of life. I ask the Board of Trade to consider what ought to be done in the future to prevent this kind of thing happening again.
Under the Government's policy of growth, in what they are attempting to do in the White Paper for central Scotland, this kind of problem might well occur again. There may be a firm which is hoping to set up in Scotland. It may
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have been attracted to a new town or even one of the development districts, and it may not have experience in the line of country in which it wishes to operate. What does the Board of Trade do? Does it sit back and watch the firm make mistakes? Does it sit back and watch it build up the hopes of the population and then shatter them by allowing the kind of thing to happen which occurred in East Kilbride last week? Is it to watch the waste of public money when a firm does not do things in the proper way?
I recognise that the Board of Trade cannot preach to new firms what they should do, but I think that there is a halfway point. The President of the Board of Trade should ask his staff to assemble the kind of information that is now available on the basis of economic research into the right and the wrong way of doing things, and it should tactfully offer this information to industrialists who are about to embark on setting up a new factory or a branch factory. This would enable the country to be more certain that public money was being used for the public good in the best possible way. I hope the Government will consider this suggestion.
Mr. Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. When I heard about this incident to which she has referred I immediately invited the deputy chairman of Tillings, with some of his co-directors and others concerned with hosiery and knitwear, to see me about it the next day. Naturally, I was concerned. I do not think that the hon. Lady would like to be misunderstood when she said that it was "closed overnight". This is a programme which has been phased. The firm is also discussing with the representatives of those working there the redundancy payment scheme and so on. In that respect the firm is carrying out its social obligations, and rightly so.
On the question of the Board of Trade approach, I was not present when this happened, but the Board of Trade makes serious inquiries into all these aspects of a firm's life. This is one of the reasons why the B.O.T.A.C. procedure takes a certain amount of time, and hon. Members are always pressing, rightly, that the time should be reduced. This we are trying to do. I am sure

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that hon. Members would protest equally strongly if they understood that we said "no" to a firm of thestanding of Tillings, with its financial resources, if that firm wanted to take a factory in an area such as this. The fact is that this firm had experience of running a business of this kind successfully in another part of the country. A considerable number of workers have been trained in these skills, and this must be a powerful inducement to another firm of this kind to go there. We are using all our efforts to bring this about.
Mrs. Hart: I am glad to hear it. I accept that the development corporation and the Board of Trade will be doing all they can to find a new tenant for the factory. What I mean by an overnight closure is that there was no previous consultation with the trade unions. I agree that redundancy payments have been worked out. Unfortunately, the firm could not agree that a system of phased redundancy would be a wise procedure. As a result, there was a later development this week. The firm wrote to other firms in the new town asking them not to take on its workers because there was still some work to be completed. This, naturally, aroused a good deal of resentment among the rest of the firms in the new town. To expect workers faced with this sort of insecurity not to look for a new job is inconceivable.
I do not suggest that the Board of Trade should refuse an application from a firm of Tillings standard. Of course they should accept it. What I do suggest is that when the Board of Trade accepts applications from firms of this kind, which are financial holding companies rather than companies actually involved in industrial production, and gives them all the assistance possible, the Board of Trade should not assume that such firms know all that there is to be learned about the best way of going about things. Some sections of industry in this country may well be highly knowledgable and experienced in how to do things well, but it is a reflection of the failure of this country to achieve an effective rate of growth in the last twelve months that some firms do not yet know the way to success.
When the Board of Trade accepts an application and offers public money to
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assist new industry in Scotland, I ask the Board of Trade to be as generous as possible and also to offer the firm all possible assistance in going about the job in the best way, without assuming that the firm already knows the best methods of doing so. I am putting forward a positive suggestion.
My constituency, of which I have spoken so much tonight, although I think that what I have said has general applications, used to be represented by the Prime Minister. If the President of the Board of Trade has any doubt about the relevance of what I have been saying—in so far as the villages of southern Lanarkshire are gaining nothing at all and stand to lose a great deal as a result of this White Paper on central Scotland—he should ask his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for his view about the needs of southern Lanarkshire and areas like it. These are the villages in the moors where the shooting of pheasants goes on above ground while mining is carried out underneath.
The Prime Minister and his friends shoot their pheasants over the top of the Lord Dunglass and the Lady Mary pits in my constituency, named after members of his family. I have been down the Lady Mary pit. It is a very different kind of life down there, one with which the Prime Minister believes he is familiar. In fact, in this mining village, near the moors where the Prime Minister shoots with his friends, the Prime Minister did not dare speak when he was fighting his second election campaign in south Lanark.
I ask that the Government, in the remaining short months of their life, will consider very seriously making yet another death-bed repentance and will recognise that while success in growth points is desirable, the salvation of areas lying outside the growth points is socially of equal importance.
6.59 p.m.
Colonel Sir Harwood Harrison: I had not originally intended to speak in the debate on the Gracious Speech. However, I was very struck by some remarks made today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. Having spent some years under his leadership in the Whips' Office, it may be of some help to the House if

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I make a few personal remarks about my experience in firms I am connected with in the export trade. I thought that my right hon. Friend outlined very clearly the Government's responsibility over our trade generally, particularly in regard to exports. It is not the job of the Government to sell the goods. As my right hon. Friend so rightly said, it is their job to see whether there are any difficulties or obstructions which prevent our exporters selling their goods.
My right hon. Friend rightly said that 200 British firms do 50 per cent, of the export business. There is not much that the bigger firms can be taught about how to sell their goods in the export market. They are experts at it. I am connected with a small private engineering firm. It has not a great deal of capital. It employs about 400 people. In 1948, 95 per cent, of the goods the firm produced went to the export market. We did not get any particular thanks for that from the Board of Trade. Now only about 70 per cent, of its production goes to the export trade and it has to make up that lost business in the home market. We have agents throughout the whole world and receive reports from them.
One thing which hinders the export trade is the political scene in different countries. I suggest that one reason why we have not made so much progress with exports to the Commonwealth recently as we have with exports to Europe is the changing political pattern of the Commonwealth. We no longer have, under the Commonwealth Relations Office or the Colonial Office, the say we used to have under the Dominion Office about what a country's import policy should be. Nowadays we are selling in what are to all intents and purposes foreign countries. It is noticeable that, when countries gain their independence, whether or not they become republics, they often place steep embargoes on imports of British goods. Since independence the whole of India has been denied as a market for my firm's goods, because we cannot get quotas to import our goods into India. We lost a very good market in Ceylon and another in Ghana. In addition, there are political upheavals in countries such as Iraq and the Congo which
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formerly took many of our light engineering goods.
Here I must pay tribute to the very great help our firm has received from the Foreign Office representative in the Congo since there has been a little more stability there. He has helped us to obtain licences to import our goods into the Congo again. I suggest that the Government should carefully consider the political situation in these countries, as I know that they do when making tradetreaties with them, with a view to seeing whether they will take a wider range of goods, especially countries which were formerly within the Commonwealth. Immediately a country gains independence it seems that it has a bias for some years against British goods or anything British. Ultimately, after five or ten years, it wants our goods again.
I have met many of our trade representatives overseas. On the whole, they do valuable work in promoting the sale of British goods. I wonder whether saying "Buy British"is quite enough. I wonder whether they ought not to recommend a potential customer to buy the goods of a named firm. I appreciate that this would be a big departure from the present practice. The 200 firms to which my right hon. Friend referred are amongst the finest firms in the country. We know that their goods are of high quality. Would it not be possible for our trade representatives abroad to name the goods of such firms, if they have a certificate from the Board of Trade, and recommend their purchase to enquirers? If our representatives abroad were to say, "Buy a Morris car", or "Buy Dunlop tyres. They are the best", this would be much more effective than saying, "Buy British". Further, could not information about inquiries and requirements for a particular product be sent direct to the firm in Britain making the product? It is not always particularly easy for a firm to know immediately whether its products are required in America, Africa or in Asia.
In my part of the country—Ipswich and East Suffolk—an export group has been formed. Those with knowledge will help smaller firms which have not any knowledge of exporting. Seventy firms were represented at the first meeting last week. I have not yet had time

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to write to my right hon. Friend about this, but these firms are anxious that he should visit them in the new year, after they have had two or three more meetings. The Board of Trade's policy of giving impetus to such provincial groups in which one firm helps another instead of being in deadly competition with each other is absolutely right. The Board of Trade should be congratulated for having started this project.
I turn to the question of automation in industry. When the phrase "industry" or "automation in industry"is used, one always thinks of factories. I am of the opinion that our factories have gone in for automation in a big way, particularly the larger factories. I am thinking of the large amount they have invested per man employed. Medium and smaller sized firms cannot do so much. I am not so worried about automation in factories, because it is already taking place and management is alive to the need for it.
I believe that much more can be done by way of automation in offices and in distribution. This is where the cost of articles to the consumer could be brought down. With the exception of some of the bigger banks, for example, I do not think that enough larger offices have gone in for automation. Manpower is still being wasted. By using more electrical appliances the number of clerks and typists could be reduced, thus effecting a saving. When my right hon. Friend makes speeches about the need for automation in industry, may I suggest that he turns his attention to offices and the distribution side, where a very large number of people are employed? No one seems to bother much about how they are employed or whether their jobs are really vital or necessary.
In the distribution trade we are moving towards the era of supermarkets where people helpthemselves and where there are fewer assistants in the shops. As a whole, we in this country still like a great deal of service from people in shops or by way of delivery of the goods we buy. I am horrified at the number of shopkeepers who are still prepared to deliver goods such as bread, milk, groceries and greengrocery.
I cannot think that this is other than wasteful.] look forward to the time
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when we will not need a daily delivery of milk. I must admit, however, that if I say this in my constituency I am almost howled down. Then I tell them that I live in a small flat in London and that I buy a pint of milk on Monday and put it in the refrigerator. It keeps perfectly all right and lasts me for the four breakfasts that I am here for in London in the week.
It must be extravagant to have a daily delivery of milk all over the country as we do now. Could it be cut down, perhaps, to a delivery on alternate days? The refrigerator is not, I think, a luxury any longer, and I hope that we shall very soon, with the great expansion of electricity supply, have a situation in which there will be a refrigerator in every house.
I am using the example of milk deliveries to illustrate what I mean. If we could cut down the number of such deliveries, the price of milk could either go up to the producer—which my farmers would like very much—or it could go down for the consumer. Although the cost of living has recently been fairly stable, it does, inevitably, keep rising over the years. Here, on the distribution side, a great deal more could be done to reduce costs and reduce our use of manpower and womanpower. There are too many people engaged in chasing about after orders and delivering goods. I suggest this as a field of research for one section of my right hon. Friend's-Department.
These few remarks have been rather disjointed. I was not really expecting to make a speech at this stage, and I have given examples from my personal experience. It is a good thing sometimes to speak a little unexpectedly—perhaps one's friends ask one to come in and speak—and, by using illustrations taken from personal experience, one can, I think, touch on matters which are of more importance to the ordinary person than one does sometimes in preparing a long thesis which one may or may not, in the end, be able to deliver.
The export market is vital to us because all our social prosperity depends on our ability to sell. I congratulate the Government on the increased amount of sales for which they have been responsible. I congratulate those who run our factories, the men who work in them and

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the salesmen who go abroad to get our goods sold. On their work, and on their work alone, we depend for the expansion of all our social services.
I wish my right hon. Friend very well in the great responsibilities he now has not only for Scotland and the North-East, which are so important, but, as he has rightly said, for the whole of the country, places such as East Anglia and the farming districts just as much as anywhere else. The farming community, which is now employing less labour on the land but with greater productivity, is saving us a great deal in our balance of payments, and doing as much to help our country's economy as is industry generally.
7.13 p.m.
Mr. Edward Milne:The hon. and gallant Member for Eye (Sir H. Harrison) will understand if I do not follow him very closely, although when he wandered into the realm of the distributive trades I was much tempted to do so. His economies in the use of milk at his London flat may be highly commendable in some circumstances, but I assure him that there are still very many old-age pensioners, whose welfare is not referred to in the Gracious Speech, for whom the price of a refrigerator would be an impossible burden. Already, of course, great strides in the use of automation and the acceleration of deliveries have been made in the distributive trades.
I wish to dwell on some of the problems of my own area to which reference is made not only in the Gracious Speech but in the White Papers on the North-East and Scotland which have been published today. Our debate on the Gracious Speech has already been referred to as the grand inquest of the nation. It is instructive to go back over the past 12 years and read extracts from previous Gracious Speeches, linking them with what was contained in the Speech delivered last Tuesday.
In last year's Gracious Speech, we were told:
"My Ministers will continue to promote efficient and sound expansion of the national economy, with a high and stable level of employment."
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In 1963, we have similar words:
"My Ministers are determined to maintain the expansion of the economy in all parts of the country based on a high and stable level of employment."
With the comparison between those two Gracious Speeches in mind, I ask the House to consider what has been happening in one area where a high and stable level of employment was promised. I shall not, on this occasion, deal with unemployment among adults, save to say that, although it has been argued that the situation has improved, our unemployment figures in the North-East for this month as compared with last are considerably worse than they were at this time a year ago. I shall concentrate on the tragic situation of school leavers.
To refer to my own constituency first, in mid-October, 1962, we had 83 school leavers registered as unemployed. The figure is now 119, and six of them have been unemployed since Christmas last. In the North-East as a whole, at mid-October, 1961, there were 482 school leavers unemployed. By mid-October, 1962, the number had risen to 2,197, and on 14th October this year, when the White Paper on the North-East was almost certainly in the hands of the printers, the total for youth unemployment in the North-East had risen to 2,575.
If this were merely a case of deterioration in the situation just before the appointment of the Lord President of the Council as the "overlord"of the area, one might have excused the Government for having allowed things to slip before they could bring about an improvement. But we have had surveys of the North-East before. As far back as 1936, the Northern Industrial Group made a survey of our industrial facilities. A further survey was made in 1941, and another survey was made in 1949. We have had 12 years of Conservative Government since 1951, and there has been a rapid deterioration in the employment situation in the North-East, particularly since 1957.
The proposals in the White Paper issued today are no more than a follow-up of what we have already been promised. Previous legislation has been quite inadequate to deal with the problem. We are given all the platitudes about the way

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in which the problem has arisen. We are told about how the older industries are in decline. We are told of the number employed in coal mining as a percentage of total employed in the North-East as compared with the percentage in the rest of the country.
These are not facts which the Government could have discovered only 12 or six months ago. These things have been happening over the years, and intelligent observers should have been able to anticipate the trend and act accordingly. However, taking the White Paper as a whole, we are told that this is the solution to our problems.
I notice that the Prime Minister has returned to his place on the Front Bench. We are very glad to see him. May I therefore ask him whether the Government are convinced that unemployment will be halted and reduced by the policy outlined in the new White Paper? Will it halt pit closures in Northumberland until alternative employment is provided for the men to be displaced?
We are told that we are to have a modern transport system. Another section of the White Paper deals with this matter. Apparently, a modern transport system is to be provided "by all appropriate means", and then the White Paper goes on to outline some of those means. We see the new roads pattern in the opening of the Tyne tunnel. However, this does not go far enough because if we have expansion in the area it will create other bottlenecks.
My hon. Friends from Scotland will be dealing with the White Paper on Scotland, but I should like to make this comment in passing. Unless a modern road transport system links the north-east of England with the major cities of Scotland, we shall run into even greater difficulties than those we are trying so solve. We urge that a dual carriageway linking Newcastle and its environs with the Forth and Clyde area is absolutely imperative at the earliest possible moment, because it is obvious from the reports that we have had and the examinations which have been made that it is in these areas that the new industrial revolution will be hammered out in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s.
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However, a modern transport system means not only new roads but making the best use of the existing methods at our disposal. We talk about modern roadways, yet the centres of our cities are congested by an increasing flow of traffic into them. My constituency is faced with the closure of its railway line which gives access not only to Newcastle but to other parts of the North-East. It links with the main line expresses from Newcastle to London and Newcastle to Edinburgh. This link is very important to areas little removed from the centres of population.
When a modern transport system is being considered, can some thought be given to a realistic fares policy for the railways? We often get the impression that the fares policy is designed to drive people off the railways rather than on to them. May I take, for example, the service between Scotland and Newcastle? During the weekend one can travel from Glasgow to Newcastle for £3, but if one boards the same train 50 miles further on, at Edinburgh, one is charged £3 2s. 6d. I can travel from Newcastle to Edinburgh at the weekend for about 50s., but if I want to go from Edinburgh to Newcastle the railways charge me £3 2s. 6d. Surely matters like this need examination.
I know that it is very dangerous to mention this sort of thing because the other week the people in a certain area in Britain were complaining about the rail fares. They were told that, because they had complained, instead of the fare being reduced to the lower level, they were in danger of having the fare increased.
A modern transport system also means the fullest use being made of our docks and harbours. We welcome the reference in the Gracious Speech to the implementation of the Rochdale Report. The port of Blyth is one of the largest, if not the largest, coal exporting ports in Europe. It ranks very close to Newcastle. On occasions it has surpassed Newcastle in the export of coal. The proverb refers to taking coals to Newcastle. In view of the total annual tonnage exported from our port, it is now a question of taking coals to Blyth. It is one of the most adaptable ports in Britain and is sited close to the new

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town of Cramlington, one of the growth points to which reference is made in the White Paper issued this afternoon.
May I touch on one other aspect of policy to which, I regret, there is no reference in the Gracious Speech. There is no mention of a fuel policy. Everyone agrees that there will be a tremendous increase in world demand for energy in the next 20 years. It will be necessary for all countries, including our own, to tap all sources of energy supply. Oil will possibly become harder to obtain and it may even become dearer. As has been mentioned in some of the European reports and reports about our own coal resources, countries with coal resources will count their blessings in the years ahead. This is why consideration of some sort of integrated fuel policy is urgently required. There is need to plan the fuel and power needs of the country for many years ahead. Now that the Minister of Power is in the Cabinet I hope that this will be done at the earliest possible moment. A closer link between the National Coal Board, the Gas and Electricity Councils and the Atomic Energy Authority is needed.
I do not want to take up too much time by going into the details of the Gracious Speech, but I recall that when I entered this House less than three years ago, in my maiden speech I had the temerity to ask the Government to tackle the immense problems which have been presented by the challenge of a new age. I pointed out that in tackling them they may have to turn their backs on some of their traditional policies, but turn their backs on them they must if we are to check the unhappy decay in our industrial areas. Many of the measures in the Gracious Speech have been repeated too often over the last twelve years for us to take any real notice of them or to attach any real importance to the legislation envisaged. A Government that could not act for the betterment of Britain in the last twelve years is not likely to act effectively in the few remaining months at their disposal.
7.30 p.m.
Sir Douglas Marshall:Originally, I had no intention of taking part in this debate, primarily because nowadays—I think rightly—we make certain days available on which we dis-
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cuss specific subjects. Consequently, there is not much time to apply one's mind and thinking to many other matters which are contained in the Gracious Speech.
I hope that the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) will forgive me if I do not follow him fully in the different matters which he has discussed concerning Scotland, because, although I have always had a great affection for that country, my mother being a Scot, I do not have the same knowledge as hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies. I was, however, interested in twoof the points made by the hon. Member. The second was his picture of the last 12 years as if today, if anything, we were in a worse position than 12 years ago. That is a most astounding statement, especially to anyone who has had the opportunity of travelling thousands of miles abroad, which is quite good for one, because it enables one to look back into one's country and see the enormous progress which has been made here during that time. Apart from everything else, one considers the position of sterling and how it is buttressed. I am certain that in this respect the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) shares my view. This is a considerable advance over 12 years ago.
It is true that it is impossible to include everything in the Speech from the Throne, and the hon. Member for Blyth referred to the question of a fuel policy. I share the anxiety which he expressed. With the ever-increasing demand for power as countries in every direction raise their standard of living, the possible shortage of oil and the like is something of which we must take good notice. I ask my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench to apply their thinking between now and the Budget to the question of both petrol and diesel fuel, because I am given to understand that the shortage which is arising is in diesel fuel and not in petrol, due to the present rate at which oil is used in this country.
I was rather surprised that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade appeared to be extremely modest in his approach and in answer to a question from an hon. Member opposite concerning the employment position in the South-West, because it was only a short time ago that

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he received a large deputation from that area. He spent a considerable time listening to the different points made by the delegation and promised that after about three months, when the Board of Trade would have had time to study the problem, he would send for them again and be delighted to discuss the matter further and see how the problem could be dealt with. That is the position at the moment in the South-West. All those who went to see my right hon. Friend were extremely pleased with their reception and look forward to him once more making himself available in the coming months to see what can be done concerning this problem.
The situation in the South-West is a difficult one and varies considerably according to the area concerned. It is not exactly of the same shape as the problem of central Scotland and northeast England, around which the major part of this debate has hinged. On the other hand, there is a likeness between great areas of Scotland and great areas of the South-West. They both have features of exceptional beauty, which no one at any time would deny, and this naturally brings a tourist trade to these areas.
The tourist trade demands certain features which are quite different to other forms of invisible export earnings and physical earnings in the way of production. The season does not cover the full 12 months of the year and although people are employed and have to be drawn upon for long periods of time, they cannot be employed permanently in the same occupation.
Again, there is a sincere desire among those who live in that type of area not to see their young people constantly going away to earn their living elsewhere. It is extremely easy to argue that all the distances in our country are small in comparison to those in the United States of America, Canada or elsewhere. Nevertheless, we do not want one particular area always to be getting a smaller population and, at the same time, to have the age of those who remain always increasing. Consequently there is a need, which is recognised by the Board of Trade—and this was why my right hon. Friend saw the delegation—for light industries to come into that type of area. It is only natural
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that I should be thinking very much of the area of Cornwall within the South-West, representing as I do one of the constituencies of Cornwall.
Another feature on which, I believe, my views are shared by a great number of people concerns higher education in Cornwall. We have adequate locations which could quickly be made use of for a university. I trust that when considering the implications of the Robbins Report, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education and his right hon. Friend the Lord President will remember not only that we desire to have a university but that because of the pattern of Cornwall and the fact that so many people come in or go out at so many times, a site could rapidly be made available to house a university population. Some people may argue that it is out of place to discuss such a project for an area with a population of only about 300,000. It must, however, be realised that universities do not draw their people merely from their own area. Consequently, that is not an overwhelming argument against my suggestion.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade said this afternoon that money would be made available for the North-East Coast and central Scotland to advertise the advantages of erecting factories in those areas. I am rather hoping that when he applies his mind to the South-West, as he is going to do, he will also consider this point as well. After all, it was a Conservative Government which allowed the Tamar Bridge to be built, and the Tamar Bridge does mean that there is a connection between England and Cornwall which is extremely useful for the transport of goods.
Mr. A. Bourne-Arfon:Built by a Darlington firm.
Sir Douglas Marshall:That is splendid. We always feel that the English are first class at building and only too glad to register the fact.
These are the major points with regard to the question of unemployment in Cornwall, but at the same time I should just like to mention one or two other things. In the Budget of this year the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the first time in the nearly 19 years

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I have been in this House, introduced legislation which was of real help to tin mining in Cornwall. This has been a considerable help and will be of considerable help, but I want to make this point as well.
It is helpful in this direction—where the operation of the mining in tin lies in the development area in Cornwall, but, of course, tin does not necessarily stick to a development area, and consequently it is essential for my right hon. Friend to apply his mind to seeing whether in the next Finance Bill there will be any opportunity of extending this facility for the search for minerals in this country, for metalliferous mining. As I have often said in this House, there were some measures which hon. Friends of mine and I put forward in 1945 and 1946 and which have been adopted in the United States, in Australia, in Canada, even in Eire, and it is sometimes a slightly mournful reflection that though we have certainly got a bite of the cherry, for which we are grateful, we have not got exactly all that we want.
Then again, in the Gracious Speech there is reference made to the discussions going on between the Minister of Agriculture and the N.F.U. and to the thinking of how to prevent imports from undermining the market. This is an extremely good thing because the type of area to which I have been referring is naturally primarily an agricultural area and therefore farming is its primary source of income. Also we have our fishing, and fishing is mentioned in the Gracious Speech. We know that certain matters are to come before the House for the protection of the horticultural industry, and this indeed gives me very great hope, because anyone who has anything to do with horticulture knows perfectly well two things, firstly, that some of the finest types of men are engaged in this industry, and, secondly, that it consists of a great number of what now are generally termed "small" people. Thirdly, they have had for a very considerable time a very tough time from time to time and, of course, there was very great anxiety during the period of the discussions on the Common Market as to what their future would be. I must say I feel relieved that that particular position has been removed.
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So altogether I should like to say that it seems to me that there is considerable matter contained within Her Majesty's Gracious Speech and that it is going to be of considerable benefit to this country of ours. It has been argued, quite naturally, by Her Majesty's Opposition—one finds this rather a strange argument to come from them—that this is an impossible programme to carry out. I have always felt that they are rather depressing about the future. I have always believed in my heart that an expansionist programme in this country of ours is possible and can be done, but it is no good suggesting that an expansionist programme can be carried out unless we prepare the ground to make that programme possible, unless we have our reserves to make our sterling effective against the whims and fancies of the outside world. Altogether, I have great hopes for the future of this country's carrying out the programme which has been, to my mind, so simply given at the Box by the Prime Minister.
7.46 p.m.
Dr. Jeremy Bray:It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bodmin (Sir Douglas Marshall), because I think he has brought out the failure in the thinking of the Government in the two important statements which have been published today, and that is that they have been prepared in a regional framework and not in a national framework of planning. The hon. Member made important and telling points about his constituency. Would it not be a great deal better if each year this House were presented with reports, on the pattern, perhaps, of these, but covering every region in the country, and not only putting plans, but also measuring performance in the regions, measuring it against the targets set.
Sir D. Marshall: Maybe I have misunderstood the point, but I rather understood from my right hon. Friend's speech that this was in fact his intention and that he had begun with these two regions.
Dr. Bray: Let us hope that that interpretation proves to be correct.
I think that the report about the North-East will be received with quite genuine disappointment in the area. I

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say this from the simplest human feelings of the unemployed people in the North-East. It had been built up as bringing a prospect of jobs, as bringing a prospect of brighter times round the corner. I know the Government will say that it is a long-term view they have put in the document, but though it may not have been their intention to deceive the people of the North-East—and I do not think for one moment that it was—there will nevertheless be that sharp feeling of frustration in many homes in the North-East tonight.
It is a long-term programme; I accept that; but even in this respect it has the very great weakness which was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart), and that is that it sets no targets. If we do not have a target, we always give only so much effort; but if we set ourselves a target, then, as we find greater difficulties in achieving it, so we put greater resources, new methods, new techniques, new ideas, new principles, new analyses, into the achievement of the target we have set ourselves. These are two quite different approaches. And this one by the Government, as is described somewhere in this document, is not to make a projection, still less proposals, but merely to adumbrate; that is, the contrast is between this approach and the challenge we put to the Lord President of the Council to reduce the level of unemployment in the North-East to the national average within a stated time. The party opposite accepted this challenge on housing. There must be some principle which prevents that party from accepting it on employment.
Accepting that this White Paper was no more than a long-term programme, accepting that it had not set itself targets, one would have hoped that it would have been at least an up-to-date report of the Government's plans. Yet there is no mention of Newsom in this Report. There is no mention of Robbins, and there is no consideration of the Industrial Training Bill. The basic facts of Newsom have been available in the Ministry of Education's published statistics for some years now, relating, for example, to the average age of school-leaving in the North-East. Also information is available, although not published, relating to the turnover of teachers in the North-East in comparison with other parts of the country. Had
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these been considered the slightly complacent paragraph dealing with schools merely in terms of building would not have appeared in this Report.
On Robbins, I cannot understand why the Scottish Report, Cmnd No. 2188, should contain references to the Robbins Report, whereas the North-East Report, Cmnd. No. 2206, the later one, does not contain any reference to the Robbins Report at all. I take it that this has something to do with the distractions between the completion of this Report and its publication and that in fact the arguments and implications of the Robbins Report for the North-East have yet to be considered.
The Report no more than refers to the existence of the Industrial Training Bill. It says that it holds out great hopes for the development of training in the country, but an examination of the Bill shows that it has no conception of the regional dimension, of regional economic problems at all. There is only one Clause which even vaguely could be interpreted as referring to the regional problem, and that states:
"The facilities for further education that may be provided by a local authority shall be deemed to include and always to have included facilities for vocational and industrial training."
Otherwise, there is no mention of any local consideration at all in the planning of industrial training.
Industrial training boards, by their nature, are national boards, covering the whole of the industry of the country. Where the industry is localised, for example, the cotton industry, no doubt the board will have a local point of view, and, indeed, provision is made for this in the Bill. But where we have an industry, the obvious example is engineering, which covers the whole country, there is no provision in the Bill and no consideration in the Report of the North-East about what special measures may be needed to provide the skilled manpower for the new industries which we hope to bring into the area. There is reference to the North-East Training Council, but I think that the Minister of Labour does not need to be reminded of the arguments which we have had about the effectiveness and adequacy of this in recent months while unemployment among young people has reached the dizzy heights that it has today.

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What does this Report do? For the North-East, it interprets the concept of the growth area as one spanning the greater part of the area in which the population of the North-East live. Into this growth area, it brings two broad kinds of opportunity. The first is a measure of priority in public investment. It is very difficult to see just how this would work out. But I accept that we have to wait and see how this does work out in the approval of schemes for public expenditure in the area. It is not evident in the Report as it now stands that any greater priority has been given to expenditure in this area than would have been warranted apart from the concept of the growth area altogether. This does not seem to me to be a new provision.
The other aspect of the growth area is that it makes a whole area in the North-East sink or swim together. In other words, if one area is able to reduce its level of unemployment but the area next door is not able to do so and still has a high level of unemployment, then the lucky area is not de-scheduled. It can continue to attract new industry and workers from the neighbouring area. This is sensible—it is an advance, and I certainly welcome it. But it depends on the interpretation of the sentence in the White Paper that the growth area will not be removed from the provision of the Local Employment Act "in the absence of strong evidence of a general and sustained improvement in employment in the region as a whole."
What is this "strong evidence" of sustained improvement in employment? That is what we have had in the North-East, I suspect, in the eyes of the Government from the war up till about 1959 when our troubles in the North-East began. The reason for the apparently high level of economic activity in the North-East then was a very large construction programme, largely in industry, but also in social investment of some kinds like housing. When this fell off after 1959, all the resources employed, both in the construction industry in the North-East and in heavy steel fabrication for other parts of the country, were knocked on the head, and we were in the difficulty that we are in today.
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me government nave sought a way out of the difficulties in the North-East, very rightly in my view, by undertaking a large-scale construction programme. We shall have a great deal of our resources tied up in construction in the North-East for the next few years. I do not think that it will overload the industry by any means, but we shall get into the position eventually of having our level of unemployment reduced by construction which will lead, under the apparent interpretation of this vital sentence, to the descheduling of the whole growth area, which will in turn cause a drop in the level of construction, and we shall have unemployment back again.
Construction has to be done, but there has to be a phasing into new types of employment and of industrial activity which, if we do not begin to plan now, we shall not be able to plan when it comes to the tailing off of any construction programme on roads and so on. There is need for more thinking ahead about the longer term pattern of employment than we have in this Report, and it should be done now.
The Report contains one new announcement about roads affecting the southern part of the area, and this is very welcome, although we have expected it. The Report about Middlesbrough being the first area for consideration under the new Crowther Report and other reports on road traffic makes me a little uneasy, because this survey of traffic on Tees-side has been going on for some months, and if it is merely old wine in old wineskins that we are to get from the new road reports, they will not cope with the traffic situation of the country as it needs coping with today.
To return to this Report, it is an interesting document certainly, but it has the stamp of having been written in Whitehall by the technique of writing round to the Ministries and saying, "Dear Joe, What are you doing about the North-East?" and taking out paragraphs from different Ministry documents and putting them together. Obviously a fairly dusty reply came from the Ministry of Health— "We will get on with our job; do not bother us". The Ministry of Education has just lifted the appropriate part from its

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programme. Integration has not been carried out to the extent that we would have hoped.
I know that the introduction of a regional development group is a new effort in Whitehall and that it has stimulated and excited those engaged in it, but it needs to be carried a great deal further if it is really to get down to a regional point of view. I suggest that the Report—I hope it will become an Annual Report—should be written in Newcastle, in the new regional office of Government and from the point of view of the North-East itself.
There is a difference between the Scottish Report and the North-Eastern Report in this respect. Why should the Scottish Report rank an index and the North-East Report not? Why should the Scottish Report be conceived more as a single whole and the North-East Report more as a collection of snippets? Perhaps we have something to learn from the pioneering of the regional administration which has gone on in Scotland.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: My hon. Friend will, I am sure, recognise that the Scottish report is a very thin one. He need not cast any envious eyes towards Scotland.
Dr. Bray: I hope that my hon. Friend will later develop that point more fully.
What should the Report have said? All it has done is to collect the proposals that the Government have made over the last few months and conduct a review, which is useful, but it does not meet the fundamental need of the situation, which is to provide work. How should this need have been met? There are three instruments for conducting a regional economic policy, and these have been used to various extents by the Government. The first is the provision of capital, the second is the provision of training of manpower, and the third is the provision of markets for industries in the region or setting up in the region which need them.
First, the provision of capital has been carried under the Local Employment Act just about as far as the Government can go, short of setting up public enterprises. If we now provide 25 per cent., it will not be long before
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we are up to a controlling interest in the firm. The Conservative Party has objections to going higher. We on this side of the House have not. That logical step on to mixed enterprise and public enterprise must surely come before we are able really to hold out the certainty, as we surely can, of full employment in those areas, quickly and permanently.
Secondly, the broad technique of providing manpower training is vitally necessary, but it is not enough. In, for instance, the building industry in the North-East there has been over the past year and is now no lack of skilled building craftsmen. We could have done more building than we have done. The trouble has been the lack of employment. In Northern Ireland there are highly skilled fitters and tool room men unemployed but no employers coming into the area to provide jobs for them. Therefore, training by itself is no sufficient to solve the regional problems.
As to the final point, the provision of markets must be something towards which Government thinking should turn now. This is accepted in principle already. The Government take pride in their shipbuilding scheme. I welcome very much the employment that this promises to bring to the North-East. But this conception of the provision of markets should not be made an emergency, fire brigade measure, which is bound to be inadequate. It should be taken systematically, looking at the area as a whole.
Why does the Report contain no consideration at all of actual types of firm and of production which might be established in the North-East? Even in the broadest terms, some consideration of this would have been helpful in guiding the thinking of not only the Board of Trade and of industrialists but also of local authorities as to whom they should approach, and also the local authorities themselves in considering what contracting procedures they should follow in the letting of the very major contracts which they are called upon to deal with.
I give the obvious example of prefabricated methods of building. As far as I know, the Government have given no consideration to the regional aspects of the problem. Clearly, the supply of labour, differing from one area to

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another, is highly relevant to the economics of conventional methods of building or more expensive prefabricated methods. There are areas, no doubt, such as Sheffield and Leeds, which can begin to tackle their housing problem only by prefabricated methods. Very well. In the North-East some authorities argue, understandably, that they do not see any difficulty in being able to meet their housing requirements by conventional methods within the sums which they can conceivably spend.
Surely it is up to the Minister of Public Building and Works to say, "Here is a clear location of industry problem. We will put the prefabricated building factories into the shipyards of Tees-side, Wearside and Tyneside and export to other parts of the country not only components for prefabricated buildings but also the vast range of equipment—plumbing, electrical goods and so on—which will have to come into the increased construction programme for the whole country in the years ahead".
I hope that this dimension of the provision of markets will be reviewed systematically by the Government on a regional basis by the time we are able to get a second round of reports, although one recognises that the Government will not be here to publish them, but they can at least start the good work and let the enthusiastic bunch of civil servants, who have done their best about this with inadequate terms of reference, get down to thinking of an industry-by-industry, product-by-product projection of demand and of employment in the region and look at the appropriate measures by which the Government can economically secure full employment at the earliest possible opportunity in the North-East, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
I am greatly disappointed that no hon. Members opposite have yet spoken about Northern Ireland. Perhaps they will do so. I propose to raise the subject on the Adjournment this evening, so I will not dwell on Northern Ireland at any greater length now.
8.8 p.m.
Mr. A. Bourne-Arton: I apologise for not having been here at the beginning of the debate. I was
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prevented from being here by other Parliamentary duties, and so I apologise in advance in case anything I say has already been said.
I am particularly sorry that I did not hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but I should like to say how greatly I welcome the appointment and the choice of the right hon. Gentleman to fill it. I wish my right hon. Friend very well indeed.
The publication today of the document dealing with the North-East is most timely. Nothing has been waiting for its publication, but the time is now ripe for all of us in the region, and no doubt this applies also to those in other regions such as Scotland, to know what the thinking is for the longer-term development. Up to now nothing has been spoiling. We have with varying success in different parts made more or less good use of the tools which the Government have provided. In the North-East the sum total of the efforts of all of us has been that no less than £15 million of Government aid under the Local Employment Act has been offered and 17,000 new jobs thus created.
But it is an operation, as I have said previously, which cannot be undertaken by the Government alone. It is a matter of partnership, with Government assistance and direction, and a lead being given in the right place in the right way, and advantage being taken of all this by management, unions and local authorities. I want to say a little more about that later.
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) says he believes that the region will find this White Paper deeply disappointing. He is entitled to make his forecast as I am entitled to make mine, but I believe that he will be proved wrong. I am not disappointed. One of the things I welcome most warmly in the approach of the White Paper is that it flatly contradicts the cry of "stinking fish" that we have heard too often in too many quarters—I am sorry to say, occasionally from the lips of hon. Members opposite.
That does not get any region anywhere. The White Paper, however, has got it right on the first page when it points out that the North-East is not

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a declining region but one which is transforming. It rightly accepts for the Government the duty to give special help in the adjustment which such a region must undertake in order to do two things—shorten the period of adjustment from one type of industry to another and ease the burdens and hardships which these periods of adjustment create.
It is because the White Paper is written in that spirit of denial—rightly so—that the North-East is declining and asserts what is true and plain to be seen by anyone travelling through the region—that it is transforming and adjusting itself to modern needs—that I believe that its approach is exactly right.
I do not know whether the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West was disappointed by all the detailed provisions in the White Paper or even by the summary of them, but if he is disappointed—and he appeared to be less than enthusiastic about the provision for stop-listing—I am not. Those of us who have been able to travel around the country and study the working of the Local Employment Act know very well the difficulties and uncertainties which too-frequent changes in the designation of development districts entail. It is good and encouraging news, and will give confidence to industrial developers to know, that stop-listing will not come like a bolt from the blue and that places will not be removed from the list of development districts unless there is strong evidence of sustained improvement. I welcome that.
I for one am not disappointed with the undertaking to improve communications not only within the region but between the region and other parts of the country and, indeed, between the region, I would add, and other parts of the world. For that reason, I most warmly welcome the encouragement given to the strong activity which Darlington and other local authorities are making for the acquisition and development of the Royal Air Force station at Middleton St. George as an international airport. It is perfectly sited for the purpose. It already has runways of sufficient length. It is within three miles of Darlington, which has magnificent rail and road communications, and I can assure my right hon.
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Friend that when the White Paper talks about consideration by local authorities he will certainly have the wholehearted and enthusiastic co-operation of Darlington in that development.
Whatever the views of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West may be, I am not disappointed in the proposal for a very substantial enlargement of the new town of Aycliffe. I have several reasons for being delighted that it finds a place in the White Paper. The Town and Country Planning Association drew up a report on the North-East which we published in the spring when we strongly advocated this development. I have interesting good fortune to serve on the executive of the Association and had something to do with the preparation of the report, and I am delighted that the Government have agreed with it.
There is no competition here between my constituency interest six miles away and the development of Aycliffe. There is no jealousy between new and old. We have always approached this problem from the point of view that we were interested in the region. We were very strongly and deeply interested in southwest Durham and were, of course, overridingly interested in everything that went on within the borough boundary. But I am sure that it is right that Aycliffe should grow and certainly it will have all the assistance that Darlington can give it in its growth.
I am not disappointed that emphasis—and more emphasis even than before—is to be laid on the clearing of derelict sites. Of course it is right and proper, and all the most sensible local authorities have been doing it with Government encouragement for many months, even years, past. It not only stimulates industrial activity in the region but makes it the more apparent that the region is really a delightful place in which to work and live. I am not disappointed about that.
Neither am I disappointed in the proposals for industrial training both for school leavers and adults. Of course it is an essential part of the business facing a region which is not declining but transforming and readjusting.
Dr. Bray: Would the hon. Gentleman consider the question of the scale of retraining? Is it really good enough to

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have retraining places totalling perhaps 100 in the whole of the southern part of the area when there are tens of thousands of unemployed there?
Mr. Boume-Arton: Of course not. That is why I welcome the avowed intention to develop it very greatly over a considerable number of years. This is not transitory but something with which we are going to live for the rest of our lives, all being well.
Dr. Bray: Unemployment?
Mr. Bourne-Arton: No. The change of employment from one craft and trade to another. All being well, the boy entering into apprenticeship now is likely to change to another craft at least once during his working life. All being well, that will be the pattern.
This is where I would join issue with something said by the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) who spoke about halting the closure of pits. To talk about halting the closures of pits or factories which can no longer earn their way totally misconceives the problem. This is not a halting operation that the Government are undertaking but an operation of conversion, and this I think is the difference at least between the hon. Member for Blyth and myself.
Another provision which causes me no disappointment at all is for the stimulation of productivity. I am not at all disappointed that in January there is to be a conference to speed up housing in the region. I am not disappointed about the encouragement of tourist facilities. It is about time that somebody realised that this is a place with enormous tourist attractions.
Nor am I disappointed to learn—I am sorry to say at second hand from my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Sir Douglas Marshall)—that this afternoon my right hon. Friend talked about making money available to enable local authorities to advertise their wares. I do not know if my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary is wincing at that. I can reassure him and say that he need not bother about us. We did this out of our own pockets nine months ago, with enormous success. I can tell local authorities that if they advertise their wares rightly and have good wares to
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advertise, they will not find a better way in which to spend their ratepayers' money. I recommend them not to wait too long for money from the Treasury but to go ahead as we did. It pays very well.
Nor am I disappointed with the Government's statement that they will offer further financial assistance to the North-East Development Council. Under the inspired directorship of our late colleague, George Chetwynd, that Council has done a magnificent job, and I am not surprised or disappointed that he and his Council are to be further assisted.
Altogether, I welcome this document very much and so I think will those who sent me here. I have said before—I emphasise it, for it is vitally important, although not universally appreciated—that whatever this or any Government do in special areas with special problems of conversion, Governments by themselves cannot do it—and I do not care what party it is. It has to be a combined operation and has to be a partnership of Government and industry, both sides of industry. Industry has great difficulties to face, particularly with many historical prejudices on the union side to overcome. But it has to be not only Government and industry but, above all, the local authorities.
I am naturally prejudiced, but I think that my own local authority has set a fine example. I do not know that it would pay us for too many people too soon to copy our example. Perhaps there is still a certain element of competition in this district. That is why I welcome the concept and the assertion that the region is to be treated as a whole. In Darlington we have always advocated this, but that has not prevented us from setting out our stall, and we are half-way to having a greatsuccess story to tell.
We could not have done this without Government assistance. Nor would it have happened if the Government assistance had not been seized and applied with enormous energy and a good deal of courage and risk-taking with ratepayers' money and a good deal of expert business knowledge. I pay tribute to that council which is not at the moment, although it was only recently, controlled by the party to which I belong, and to its devoted officers.

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Finally, it would be ungrateful of me not to say that throughout these difficult and testing last few years in the North-East the whole region has been most admirably served by local officers of Government Ministries. It would be invidious to name any, but the skill and devotion and tireless pursuit of opportunity which those officers have shown makes me welcome the proposal that they should all now be housed in the same building in Newcastle where their zeal and enterprise can be cross-fertilised and where co-ordination will be even better.
This is a splendid Report. I apologise for talking entirely about the North-East and this document, but for an hon. Member from the North-East the mind can clearly have nothing else in it today.
8.25 p.m.
Mr. John McCann: I can imagine why the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) finds no fault with this White Paper, and why he is pleased. It appears that something is to be done for the area he represents. He tends to use modern nomenclature. "Slums" have become "areas of transformation". I can imagine with what glee the unemployed in the area will be waiting to see the magic wand of the Treasury complete the transformation scene.
I do not have such a welcome to offer the Gracious Speech, because nothing is being done for an area which will decline if nothing is done for it, the North-West. Today, the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade talked of modernisation as though it were a panacea for all our problems, as though industry had only to modernise and we would be "on our way". He argued that it was not the Government's job to tell industry what to do. I contend that it is the Government's job to create a climate in which industry will know what to do.
This has not been done for Lancashire and certainly not for the textile industry, which was once that county's mainstay. I will not weary the House with a recital of the troubles of that industry, because so much has been said about them, but the main trouble is not mentioned in the Gracious Speech. One sentence in the Gracious Speech leads me to expect that another industry may
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be facing the same danger. That is agriculture.
The Gracious Speech says that the Government will limit imports to prevent the undermining of the market. Some of us remember the wind of change speech by the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), when he implied that the Government were to limit textile imports to about the 1959 level, The same promise may be made for agriculture, but it has not been kept for textiles, where imports are now running at 54 million sq. yards above the 1959 figure. Some of us have been worried about imports from the Commonwealth. I remind the House that Lancashire is also in the Commonwealth and should be remembered when these things are being considered.
In addition, imports from the Commonwealth were being increased by imports from non-Commonwealth sources; from Eire, Italy, Portugal—with whom I am pleased to see that an agreement has almost been signed—and Spain. These imports amount to 40 per cent, of our domestic market, and they create tremendous trouble. Yarns imported from Portugal have increased by thirty times and cloth by 250 times since 1957. Many promises have been made but nothing has been done.
I want to set down briefly what the industry wants, and what it expects to see when a report for the North-West is produced. I hope that a Labour Government in the next Gracious Speech will try to do something about this, if it is not to late. We need a downward revision of existing quotas and the cancellation of the clause dealing with unused balances, because there is no confidence in an industry which has spent £8 million in modernising and which is now being priced out of existence because of the effect of unused balances. We want the implementation of the destruction clause in the G.A.T.T. long-term agreement, to deal mainly with imports from the E.F.T.A. countries and Portugal.
We want Government support for the conference now going on concerning categorisation. There is a danger that concentration on one type of import will ruin a section of the industry. We could be picked off piece by piece, until we had no industry left. We want the Commonwealth content qualification raised from

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25 per cent, to at least 50 per cent., to give us an honest appraisal of what the goods contain, and we want concessions in the Ottawa Agreement. When the Ottawa Agreement was signed world conditions were far different than they are today. In the changing world of today we are faced with competition that we did not face in 1922. The cost of these concessions to the Commonwealth countries should be progressively reduced to bring them into line with present-day conditions.
We ask that anti-dumping legislation should be strengthened and pursued with greater vigour, because there is quite a lot going on in Commonwealth countries. A mill owner recently showed me a circular from India which promised Indian mills fixed rebates with different percentages for breaking into different markets. We have presented the Board of Trade with concrete evidence, but it has taken it so long to act upon it that the market has been virtually destroyed.
The 1960 agreement with Hong Kong, Pakistan and India runs out in 1965, and we are hoping that something will be done about this flow of goods, because the contraction in our industry has been catastrophic. Whereas, in 1951, it had nine-tenths of the home market and employed 313,000 men, today it has fewer than 159,000 men, and it has only two-thirds of the home market. This is the problem facing the industry today. We have a good case against other advanced countries who fail to take their share of low-cost imports. We cannot do that by legislation; it can be done only by way of appeal.
When America agrees to increase her average by 88 per cent, it seems a magnificent gesture, until we remember that she is taking only 2 per cent, of the home market, and that this increase will raise it to only just over 35 per cent. It is happening in the Common Market. Not one of those countries is taking 4 per cent, of the domestic market, whereas we are facing a heavy burden with 40 per cent. A local industrial correspondent recently made a significant remark about the Common Market. He said that textile managements on the Continent had more influence with their Governments than the textile managements and owners here have with our
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Government. Some of us feel that the Government believe that the industry is expendable.
There is some recognition of our problem in the 1962 long-term G.A.T.T. agreement. In its reference to extending trade with the low-cost countries it exempted Britain. I ask the President of the Board of Trade whether it would not be possible, in the light of existing circumstances, to recall the G.A.T.T. Convention so that we can have another look at the 1962 long-term agreement. I believe that cotton has a tremendous part to play in the reviving industry of this country.
I want briefly to make four main points. First, we should ensure that other countries take a fair share of these low-cost imports, in order to give us some security and confidence in the future. Let us reopen the G.A.T.T. negotiations, and ask for a liberalisation of the 1962 Agreement to this end.
Secondly, let us appoint a cotton commission to regulate imports, and let it be staffed by the Board of Trade, the trade unions and the industry. Reverting to what the hon. Member for Darlington said, I have recently spoken to trade unionists and mill owners and I can state definitely that there is a tremendous spirit of co-operation within the industry. There is money ready to be invested in it once the security of markets is there. I feel that the Government could give us this security.
Thirdly, we want more planning in the industry, because it is rather unwieldy. The industry is prepared to face a review on N.E.D.C. lines, possibly to give us a growth of 4 per cent, per annum, but we must fix this industry's place in our future economy.
Fourthly, we could extend the time for grants, provided that applicants undertake approved integration schemes in their mills. We need a guaranteed percentage of the home market to encourage investment and reorganisation at home. This would make the industry more competitive and enable it to compete more successfully in home and foreign markets. The industry is prepared to see whether we could do with fewer men and more spindles, even in its present diminished state.
But time is not on our side. Action needs to be taken quickly. It must be

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bold, imaginative and create once and for all the impression that our textile industry is worth saving. These are the minimum requirements for the survival of the industry and I would have liked to have seen in the Gracious Speech some mention of our difficulties in Lancashire.
8.36p.m.
Mr. Joseph Hiley: I was hoping that an hon. Member representing Lancashire—which, when all is said and done, is the second most important county in the country—would have shown a little more enterprise and individuality than is shown by some hon. Members representing other parts of the country. I have often claimed that in Yorkshire and Lancashire we were prepared to do something ourselves and not constantly implore the aid of the Government or any outside body. Until we can recreate the spirit of enterprise which built up the great cotton, wool and textile industries, we shall not make the progress we need to make.
The human problem of unemployment is a very real one. We often talk about it, but I feel that I have little to add today to what already has been said, except that wherever we face this problem we must do all we can to mitigate its evils. The social assets of those areas in which there is unemployment must be used and it is in recognition of this that the Government are doing what they can to ensure that in these regions the social services that exist are used and that unemployment does not spread to other areas. Everything must be done, but nothing will be achieved if we work on the principle of merely digging holes just to fill them up again.
Today and on many previous occasions I have listened to hon. Members speaking as if all that was required was someone to build a factory in a depressed area, put in an electric motor, switch it on and all would be well. I happen to be one of those whose job it is to find the orders for the goods produced in such factories and it is not as easy as some people seem to think it is. To be honest, I do not think it is quite as easy as even the Government seem to believe. There is far more to be done than merely erecting a building and switching on some motors.
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In my constituency we have no real problems of finding work for our school leavers or for anyone else. Why is it that we enjoy this situation in Pudsey, as do many other constituencies in Yorkshire and Lancashire? There are changes in demand for the goods we produce. There have always been these changes, but we have managed to cope with each situation as it has arisen. We have not gone pleading to the Government to be got out of our difficulties. Some hon. Members seem to think that they are martyrs because they have sometimes suffered from unemployment.
I remember the time when I, too, was unemployed, although I must hasten to explain that I was not unemployed in the usual way. In 1929, the time of the second Socialist Government, I was trying to run a little mill, but we could not keep it going. The place was shut down, and I was unemployed, along with the other 15 or 20 people who were on our books. I would like to keep quiet about that episode. I am ashamed of the time when I was unemployed. I felt that there was something lacking on my part that I should find myself in that position.
A lot of public money is going into the so-called development districts, and it has to be provided by those other industries that have so far been able to continue in business, expand, and produce the affluent society. If that money is to continue to pour into those districts, it must be made abundantly clear that those areas receiving it have to pull their weight. It would be wrong, it would be wicked, if those who had the advantage of this money were not to pull their weight.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) said, Governments cannot do everything, so I urge those who are to receive the advantage of this public expenditure to pull their socks up. If they do not, then in fifteen or twenty years' time, they will be back where they are now.
8.41 p.m.
Mr. William Hamilton: I thought that I had heard a very long while ago the last of the kind of sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley), but here we see the modern Tory who cannot keep

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his mouth shut. The hon. Member implies that the unemployed are themselves blameworthy, that it is their fault. Indeed, he said it in so many words—
Mr. Hiley: I did mean to say that the old phrase that a man is unemployed through no fault of his own is never entirely and completely true.
Mr. Hamilton:That confirms what I was saying, and I am glad that the hon. Member has underlined it.
I was also interested to hear him say that his constituency has no problems at all—it must be the only one in the whole of Britain. My constituency is almost wholly covered by this new plan for Scotland. The Prime Minister and his Government presume to think that they have an election rallying cry in modernisation but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said yesterday, by definition, one cannot modernise unless things are currently out of date.
This cry of modernisation would be very attractive and powerful if the Government were just assuming power. It would be even more attractive if we had a completely new team to carry it out, but we have not got a new team. We still have the same old dog-eared pack that has not even been shuffled. We have two jokers put into it—the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House—
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): It is a very good card.
Mr. Hamilton:—but no one would pretend that the Government have a more progressive look or that they have been strengthened by the substitution of the right hon. Gentleman the current Prime Minister for the father of the young fellow who has a job on his father's retirement. Nor could the Government claim to be modernised by the substitution of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the current Leader of the House for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) and now. I believe, the editor of the Spectator.
For the current Prime Minister to go on television and claim to be left of centre seems to me to be the biggest joke since he has taken office. Far
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from that, I would say that he is right of outside right. One has only to look at his record right from Munich to Kinross to see that. I spent some time in the by-election in Kinross. I think that every hon. Member on this side of the House ought to spend a fortnight as part of his education in that constituency. Even by feudal standards it is out-of-date. No wonder the Prime Minister wanted to get there. He could have chosen Luton, twenty miles from London, but, no, he got Kinross. He issued an election address. I do not know why. Even Mr. Profumo could have won Kinross.
In his election address the Prime Minister stated his beliefs. He should always remember that it is the Tory Party of which he is Prime Minister and not the Unionist Party. It is only the Unionist Party in Scotland. He said:
"… only the Unionist Party could build a humane and progressive society …".
I recall my youth. I was born and bred in the North-East, which is material for one of the White Papers issued today, and I now represent a Scottish constituency which is mentioned in the other White Paper. I remember the mass unemployment, for which my father was not responsible in any way and for which many thousands of other men were not in any way responsible. I remember the mass poverty which we suffered at the hands of the Conservative Government at that time. One shudders when one reads these words about Toryism meaning a humane and progressive society.
The Prime Minister also went into his record at the Scottish Office. These are his words in his election address:
"As the first Minister of State for Scotland I had the task of co-ordinating every aspect of Scottish life and administration …".
This was a vital job which he held for four years. Lots of other people have held the same jobs for many more years, and what have been the results in Scotland? The brutal fact is that from 1951 to 1962 the monthly average of unemployment in Scotland has gone up from 53,000 to 83,000, and the average for the first nine months of this year is 109,000.
The Prime Minister talks about expansion in his election address. My goodness, the industrial production record in

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Scotland is very much worse than the very poor record of the United Kingdom as a whole—up 13 per cent, in the last ten years, or less than 1½per cent, per year, the worst record in Europe if not in the world. Then we are told that the theme is expansion and modernisation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was making the same claims yesterday. He has been making them for twelve years as well Countless attempts—and he has been in on them—have been made to solve these Scottish problems, and each one has been proclaimed with sounding brass and trumpets and heaven knows what. The 1960 Employment Act was described by the present Lord Eccles as
"a revolutionary attempt … to tackle unemployment with the methods of mobile warfare."
Since then we have had a team, or perhaps I should say a shower, of Tory revolutionaries tackling this problem. We have had the current Chancellor of the Exchequer, the new Minister for the North-East and Scotland and all the other places, the present Minister of Defence, the President of the Board of Trade, the late and current Secretary of State for Scotland and all the underlings. They have all come and all gone.
Meanwhile, unemployment has increased unremittingly. All these fellows have put forward their programme for the solution of our problems, and the situation has become steadily worse, because till the last six months of office the Government have never been convinced on regional planning within an overall national plan. They are converted to the national plan and they are gradually getting round to the regional planning aspect.
The Toothill Report recommended regional development policies two years ago. We on these benches did not agree with a lot that was in Toothill, but if the Government had accepted that recommendation at that time, with the same speed as they accepted Robbins, at least we would have avoided two years of stagnation in many parts of Scotland. They accepted Robbins within 24 hours—a commitment of £3,500 million within 24 hours. I was the Chairman of the Sub-Committee of the Estimates Committee that considered the working of the Local Employment Act. We submitted
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our Report in April. It is now November and we have not yet had a reply. Our recommendations would not have cost anything. Six months have gone by and we have not had a reply. Yet within 24 hours the Government commit themselves to an expenditure of £3,500 million on the universities.
Can this have anything to do with an election? Does anyone really believe that these White Papers and this promise would have come out had we not been in an election year? Does anyone believe that we would have had them if the Prime Minister was quite determined that he was not going down in history as a second-class caretaker in No. 10 Downing Street? It is very difficult for people to believe.
Mr. Scholefield Allen: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that we have this situation in England and Scotland, in spite of the fact that for more than 50 out of 63 years of the present century the Conservatives have been in office?
Mr. Hamilton: We on these benches are aware of that fact and we need not labour the point.
I want to get on to another point which the Prime Minister made in his election address and which is now currently made by the rest of his Government. He talked of
"taking active steps to ensure that Scotland shares to the full in the rising prosperity and full employment …."
His constituency in Kinross and West Perthshire is predominantly a farming community. The minimum wage rate for male farm workers over 20 years of age is £9 a week. A shepherd has a minimum of £10 5s. 9d. and the minimum wage for grieves and stockmen is £10 Is. 6d. For a 53-hour week that is less than £10 take-home pay to keep a man, his wife and three or four youngsters. Horsemen and tractor men get £9 19s. 6d.
The Prime Minister never mentioned these men in his address. He mentioned the farmer, the housewife and the taxpayer, but never once the farm worker. For him and the Government to suggest that they are going to modernise, without at the same time saying that they are going to modernise for the purpose of increasing wealth and then to make sure that it is more equitably distributed,

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they might as well not start the exercise. The whole point of modernisation is to increase wealth and then to ensure that it is fairly distributed.
Mr. Daniel Awdry rose—
Mr. Hamilton:I cannot give way; I have not the time. No one can say that this kind of wage is any tribute to the work of this Government.
In 1954 the National Institute of Economic and Social Research estimated that business expenses were running at about £500 million a year. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) mentioned this point this afternoon. They must now be running at about £700 million per year. At one end of the scale there is the wage of £9 10s. a week for a worker in the most heavily subsidised industry in the country. At the other end of the scale there is the very high standard of living enjoyed in the City of London on business expense accounts and the enormous capital gains being made elsewhere in the country.
This nation is really two nations. It has become more so under this Government. At the Kinross by-election I quoted the example of the increase in land prices in the Fort William area as a result of public enterprise there. Land prices have risen tenfold because of the announcement of the pulp mill. These profits will go into the pockets of private landlords, who are merely sitting back and watching public enterprise develop the area. This is intolerable.
The Prime Minister did not mention Scottish housing in his election address, although he was contesting a Scottish seat. He took care to mention the 300,000 houses for the United Kingdom as a whole.
Mr. Ross: Four hundred thousand.
Mr. Hamilton: That was a later promise. The Prime Minister did not mention the Scottish figures, for the simple reason that for a number of years they have been steadily running down. The figures for local authority houses have been steadily running down since 1953. We have some of the worst slums in Europe, if not the worst. Many of
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them are in the Prime Minister's constituency. I canvassed in Kinross. From a car Kinross looks a highly respectable middle-class town, but behind the facade there are the most deplorable slums. I went into one house where I could touch the ceiling without extending my arm. There was a great gaping hole in the floor and another in the wall. In a similar house next door six people were living in one room with the same kind of conditions. The Prime Minister did not visit these houses. He does not know anything about them. It is significant also that the tuberculosis rate in Kinross is probably worse than that in Glasgow. This is largely due to these conditions. The Prime Minister should not say so much about modernisation unless he is prepared to start in his own constituency. He will have a full-time job on his hands if he starts in Kinross and West Perthshire.
We have heard praises resounding about the wonderful education expansion programmes, yet only yesterday the Fife County Council sent a letter to the Prime Minister protesting about the slashing of its school building programme to £300,000 next year. The White Paper on Scotland says that the infrastructure of Fife, including schools, is to be built up and modernised. Yet the Fife County Council is told that next year it will have £300,000 for the whole of its expenditure programme on education. That will be enough for only one school. The Government are so panic stricken at their electoral misfortunes that they are throwing housing out of the window. The people are seeing through it. In my view, no Government can sustain this programme without the kind of expansion which we have never had since the war. It really is an attempt at mass bribery. Everything is promised except green stamps, and we shall probably get round to them before the election. I think that a lot of hon. Members opposite find this quite deplorable. They feel that the bribery has gone too far.
We shall see what happens in the by-elections at Dundee, West and Dumfries. The people are not idiots. They are not prepared to be caught out a third time. The Government's record over twelve years more than counteracts the promises which they are now making. They may as well recognise that, attractive

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though their promises may appear, they will not be there to carry them out. They will not be able to turn on the next Government, a Labour Government, and say, "But your plans are much more modest than what we planned", because if a Government are over-committed, they cannot be expected to carry out all the extravagant promises made by a previous out-going Government.
I am convinced that most people know very well that these plans are extremely difficult to implement over a long period of years, let alone six months. The Government are trying to convince the people that everything will be wonderful in six months. In Fife, there are hundreds of boys and girls and hundreds of men and women who are now unemployed, and they will remain unemployed for a long time, in spite of these White Papers. In Scotland and in other parts of the country we are in for a very hard winter. The plans have come far too late for the Government to hope to convince people of the sincerity of their claims.
9.2 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Jay: Yesterday and today, we heard some very glowing claims about the state of the economy from both the Chancellor and the President of the Board of Trade, if I may still call him by that name. So far, the only thing which seems to have been modernised in actual fact is the name of the Board of Trade and the Minister there, and I am not sure that it is a great improvement. It is a little odd to hear from the right hon. Gentleman how splendid is the state of our economy when, less than a year ago, he was telling us that we faced a disastrous economic decline if we did not sign the Treaty of Rome at once and almost on any terms. But, even if we charitably leave aside the right hon. Gentleman's past, some of his boasts will ring hollow in many parts of the country today.
This October, there were 507,000 people unemployed in the United Kingdom, and in both Scotland and the North-East unemployment is higher now than it was a year ago. In Scotland, it was 3.9 per cent, in October, 1962, and it was 4.2 per cent., or over 90,000 people, this October. In the North-East, it was 4.3 per cent, a year ago, and it is 4.4 per cent, now, after eleven months
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of attention from the Lord President of the Council. Moreover, there are alarming reports of major redundancies in other parts of the country.
Of course, we are told that all this will be put right in the next few months, presumably, before next May. But, despite three Ministerial speeches in the debate, we still have not had an answer to this question: why, if an effective cure is suddenly to be applied in the next few months, has it not been applied during the past twelve years? If the Government know how to cure unemployment in the neglected areas, why is unemployment there higher now than it was twelve years ago?
I ask the right hon. Gentleman, whatever he calls himself, to note these figures in particular. The unemployment figure on the North-East Coast in June, 1951, was 1.8 per cent, compared with 4.4 per cent. In Scotland, in June, 1951, it was 20 per cent, compared with 4.2 per cent, now. Therefore, after twelve years of effort and four years of particularly laborious work by the present Prime Minister, as Minister of State at. the Scottish Office, the party opposite has succeeded in modernising unemployment in Scotland from 2.0 per cent, to 4.2 per cent, and on the North-East Coast from 1.8 per cent, to 4.4 per cent.
I ask the Government: if these measures announced today particularly and the vast increase in public expenditure which we are now promised, or tempted with, are right now, why were they not right last winter Last January, the figure of unemployment was 814,000. Why were not the increases in expenditure which are promised now made at that time? If the Government say that the economic situation is now much better, how can it be right to give much more stimulus at present than it was when unemployment stood at over 800,000 twelve months ago?
Why has our economy stagnated for twelve years and unemployment more than doubled in Scotland and on the North-East Coast? This is no dark economic mystery. The cause, of course, is the deliberate economic policy of the party opposite and, in particular, the abandonment of a distribution of industry policy, first, by Lord Eccles and, secondly, by the present Minister of Defence. On top of that there were the two savage

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deflations which we had, one from the present Minister of Defence in 1957 and the other from the present Leader of the House in 1961.
It was the present Leader of the House's contribution to modernisation in July, 1961, which carried unemployment over the 900,000 mark last winter and to over 6 per cent, on the North-East Coast and in Scotland. But he and the present Minister of Defence are still with us; they are still in the Government. Indeed, I gather that, if the Prime Minister allows him, the Leader of the House is to wind up the debate and to explain to us with all his usual mastery of detail why all his previous policies were wrong. If the Prime Minister is to speak again, I suppose that he will tell us what he was doing throughout his four years in the Scottish Office. Did he try to do anything about this problem?
As the Prime Minister has now plunged into what my right hon. Friend calls the process of de-Stalinisation, I should like to tell right hon. Members opposite a story which was being told in Moscow in 1956. In the previous December, the Russian Communist Party had been conducting its customary processes of consultation in the Kremlin—what they call there a meeting of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. When Mr. Khrushchev was denouncing in ferocious terms some of the worst atrocities of Stalin, somebody stood up in the hall, so it is said, and remarked, "But what were you doing in Stalin's Government at that time?".
May we be told what the Prime Minister was doing during the years when unemployment was rising in Scotland? Altogether, I am not surprised that Mr. Khrushchev said that he would be a Tory if he lived in this country.
I suppose that Mr. Khrushchev might have replied to that remark that he was accelerating from positions previously prepared. That is what the Prime Minister tells us the Government are now doing. The "positions previously prepared" were, presumably, the 6 per cent, unemployment of last winter prepared by the Leader of the House's deflation in 1961. I remember—because it has all happened three times now—the present Home Secretary saying amid the deflation of 1957–58 that the country
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was, to quote his words "well poised for recovery". Apparently, one knocks a man flat on the ground and then tells him that he is well poised for getting up from positions previously prepared.
Let us now look at the wonderful new distribution of industry policy which the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade has kindly allowed us to study since half-past three this afternoon. I tell him frankly that we shall have to discuss it in much more detail later, because we have not found it easy to read the whole of it while this debate was going on.
The most remarkable feature about this new deviation is that instead of the comprehensive development areas, which are what is really needed, the Government are now arbitrarily pitching out certain fragmented so-called growth areas which will be separate from the development districts and will omit large and important areas of country. In answer to a question from me, the right hon. Gentleman admitted that the new favoured areas—that is to say, the growth areas—will get special public investment.
These areas, however, exclude not merely the whole of Wales, the whole of Merseyside and the rest of Lancashire, West Cumberland and Barrow-in-Furness. They omit substantial under-employed areas and declining mining areas even in Scotland and the North-East coast. Dundee is left out. Dumfries is left out. So, believe it or not, are Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Paisley, most of Glasgow and Clyde-side and the whole of the Highlands and Islands.
In the North-East, almost the whole of north-west and south-west Durham are left out, although, as has been well known since 1945, west Durham is the area where the coal industry is declining. The Government leave out Bishop Auckland, Consett, Stanley, Prudhoe, Tow Law, Crook and Willington, almost the whole of North Yorkshire and the whole of the Northumberland coalfield. Blyth, Ashington and Morpeth are all summarily excluded from the favoured areas.
This is an indefensible policy and one which cannot possibly be operated or maintained for long. The right policy is to schedule one comprehensive development area covering the whole industrial complex in the region. That policy is

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simple, workable and intelligible and has at least a chance of being effective. Until we return to it, I assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is not much hope of this problem being decisively solved.
It is almost equally incredible, after all the clamour we have heard in the Press in the last few weeks, that the Government are also making almost no change in the organisation. What they are doing is merely taking a timid step backwards halfway towards the system which operated in 1945 and afterwards. In Scotland, they are now calling a group what was previously called a committee. That, I suppose, is modernisation. In the North-East, they are moving into one building in Newcastle a few people who were previously working in another building in Newcastle.
The Government are making one other change. From 1945 to 1951, as, I hope, the right hon. Gentleman knows, there was a regional controller of the then Ministry of Town and Country Planning who attended meetings of officials in every regional capital to co-ordinate town planning with industrial development. The Government abolished those officials in every region as an economy after 1951. They are now reappointing one, but in one region only, in Newcastle. That is the reality of this vast administrative reorganisation with which we have been presented today and it comes after twelve years' thought by hon. Members opposite.
I welcome one thing, and that is the disappearance of Lord Hail sham and the planting of the whole of his responsibility firmly where it belongs, that is to say, on the Board of Trade, but I really do ask the Prime Minister—I am glad to see that he is now with us—why, if it; is right now, it was all wrong last winter? I hope that we shall have an answer.
I must tell the Secretary of State this, that if he really thinks that the idea of regional co-ordination is a new one he is simply ignorant of the whole history of this matter. Throughout the war—and after—there were effective co-ordinating committees of officials in all the regional capitals, not just Glasgow and Newcastle. Throughout the period of the Labour Government there was the official regional distribution of industry committee, in every
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regional capital, and it effected the coordinating work, under the Board of Trade chairmanship, with not merely Ministry of Labour and Ministry of Transport and Ministry of Supply and other representatives but also the Comptroller of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, to whom I have just referred; and it met regularly every week.
Now we are told that a meeting will be held soon as a result of this wonderful revolution. In addition to that, in the development districts there were industrial estate companies which were the operative building and practical agents of the Board of Trade for carrying out the policy, and there were, as I suppose the right hon. Gentleman knows, corresponding official committees at headquarters under Board of Trade chairmanship, and, indeed, regional industrial committees, throughout the life of the Labour Government.
I should not have thought it necessary to say this, except, apparently, that the right hon. Gentleman is to tell the public that he is now doing something new, but the truth is that not merely all the legal powers necessary but the reorganisation needed for doing the job all existed in the years of the Labour Government, and when right hon. Gentlemen opposite took over, both in the regions and at headquarters. Strangely enough, as I have shown, at the end of the period unemployment had been reduced already in those regions very nearly to the national average.
What then happened? The Tory Government, in the years after 1951, broke all this up, refused to use their powers, and, sure enough, unemployment began to rise again. The regional organisation was practically dismantled. Take one example, the Board of Trade's offices in Swansea and Dundee were closed down. The industrial estate companies were turned into passive property-owning bodies which did not show the enterprise which they had shown before. Then we had a long series of reversals of policy, so that unemployment became as high, and in Scotland and in the North-East higher, than before. From 1955 to 1959 the Government's powers were simply not used at all.

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Then, just before the 1959 General Election, we had the promise of a local employment Act which was to put everything right. After the election, we found that all it really did was to re-enact the powers of the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, with only one important change, introduced by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that was that comprehensive development areas under the 1945 Act, covering, for instance, the whole of industrial Scotland and the whole of the North-East Coast, were replaced by a patchwork of small, separate districts. That was the great new idea, in 1959 and 1960, of the present Chancellor. Now we are told it was all wrong, as we said at the time, and we go back to another brilliant modern discovery of the larger areas!
The 1960 Act, with the help of the Leader of the House and his deflation, led us into grievous unemployment last winter, so we then had another Local Employment Bill last May, and the free depreciation allowances in the Budget. These were supposed last spring to have solved the problem once and for all, but now everything has changed again, and we return halfway, but in two regions only, to the system which was in force twelve years ago.
What a record this is of vacillation, ignorance and sheer muddle. Does anyone really believe, after this record, that when the election is over any effective action will be taken by the present Government? As the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Curran) said—I am sorry he is not with us—in his brilliant, if rather savage, attack on the Prime Minister, "It has all happened before."
I assure the Secretary of State that if he seriously means to end unemployment once and for all in these regions, it is not mainly new committees or new legislation that are needed, it is the will to do the job and fight the vested interests in the congested areas which are the real cause of this drift to the South. The Prime Minister says that he is spoiling for a fight, and he can have a fight on the over-expansion of employment in London if he really wants one. The cause of this drift to the South-East and the depopulation and unemployment in the North is not to be found in the
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North or in Scotland. The cause is the over-expansion of employment and, above all, office employment in the southeast corner of the country.
This cannot be controlled or cured by any sort of regional organisation in the northern regions. It can only be cured by resolute action at the centre, and we see no more sign of that now than we have seen for the last few years. We had this resolute control in the first few years after the war, and it is rather interesting to see what a dramatic effect that had on the figures. For two years after 1945, about 45 per cent, of new factory space built in the whole country was located in the then development areas. By 1961 and 1962that 45 per cent, had fallen to 15 per cent., and London and the south-east region were getting as high a proportion as the whole of the development areas. That is without counting office employment.
Even now, nothing serious has been done to check this excessive office building in the London region. If the Secretary for Industry and Trade is to speak again, I would ask him: what will he do—because this is what really matters in this issue—about the huge volume of planning consents for further office building in London which have been granted, but where building has not yet started? Will he consider cancelling them? If we do not do something about them, then nothing will come, or very little, of these efforts in the North, or the efforts of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, to relieve the appalling housing shortage in the London region at the present time.
Why have we heard nothing more about the plans for transferring more Government and private offices to the development districts? Why, for instance, should not the National Assistance Board headquarters go to Newcastle, when the Ministry of National Insurance is there already? Ministers have to realise—and I do not think that the Secretary for Industry and Trade sounded as if he understood this today—that this is not just a question of the North-East and Scotland, or the North-West, Merseyside, Barrow, west Cumberland, north-east Lancashire, and parts of Wales and Cornwall. A real distribution of industry policy should be directed to all the under-employed areas and not just to a

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few arbitrarily selected ones. At the moment, serious redundancies are reported in the steel and other industries, in Rotherham, Barrow and East Kilbride.
Mr. John Hynd: And Sheffield.
Mr. Jay: Can the Economic Secretary—I should like to welcome him; we have not seen him here previously in this job—tell us something about this? Is the Board of Trade, in its discharge of these responsibilities, talking to the firms which are threatening redundancies in these sensitive areas and trying to see whether a way can be found of avoiding discharges in the very areas where the Board of Trade is trying to build up employment?
The Minister's argument may be that all these little local difficulties will be swept away by the headlong expansion which is now beginning. But what guarantee have we that this expansion will go on more than a month or two after the General Election when the Prime Minister himself has told us that all his words and actions are now determined by his desire to win the election? We are delighted to have converted hon. Members opposite, after about ten years of persuasion from this side of the House, to at least a pretence in believing in expansion. But how many have we converted even to that? Last week, or the week before, the Prime Minister was ordering full steam ahead in Scotland, and about the same time the Chancellor was uttering cries of caution somewhere further south.
One wonders a little what the Minister of Defence and the ex-Minister of Health think about these vast spending plans, involving thousands of millions of pounds. Both of them resigned from the Government not long ago about a mere £50 million. I know that the ex-Minister of Health and the ex-Leader of the House have now gone the way of all flesh. One has lapsed into silence, and the other has lapsed into Fleet Street, or perhaps I should say Gower Street or even Lombard Street. But I wonder whether they will tell the House what their reasons were for refusing to serve in the Government? There does not seem to be a great deal of point in a man resigning on the ground of principle if he refuses to tell anybody what the principle was.
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Is the truth that these two right hon. Gentlemen know perfectly well that all this sudden talk of expansion is just one more attempted fraud on the public? That is what it is, and everybody knows that that is so. The reason is there anyway. Why should this attempt to expand without any planning whatever lead to any other result than it did in 1957 and 1961—violent crisis followed by deflation and stagnation?
I suppose that the Prime Minister's plan is to meet this situation somehow. This is how he told us he was going to solve the problems created by Dr. Beeching. What a poor opinion Ministers must have, after all, of the intelligence of the electorate if they think people can be fooled a third time by almost identical promises made in almost identical language.
Mr. Scholefield Allen: And by the same men.
Mr. Jay:It is not really very convincing when a gang of habitual criminals suddenly protest their total and simultaneous conversion. Nobody will be deceived. It will be remembered of the famous "Brides in the Bath" murderer that when he committed his first crime everybody said, "What a terrible tragedy that this young lady should be drowned three days after her wedding!", when it happened a second time they all said, "What a ghastly coincidence!", but the third time was once too often.
9.30 p.m.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Maurice Macmilian): It is a source of deep regret to me that the customary indulgence of the House to maiden speakers does not extend to those speaking from the Dispatch Box for the first time. It is, however, very appropriate that I should follow the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), because he is, so to speak, my Treasury ancestor. I think he was the first Economic Secretary, and I am, as far as I can tell, the tenth.
The right hon. Member for Battersea, North taunted my right hon. Friend with making rash promises and used as evidence my right hon. Friend's forecast of economic decline if the Rome Treaty should not be signed by Britain. But I think that the right hon. Gentleman must admit that it is a little early yet to judge of any long-term effects of what

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happened at Brussels, and that there is also very considerable difference between the results of a breakup in the way it actually happened and the probable results of our deliberate withdrawal or refusal to go on with the negotiations. I will not deny the gravity of the figures of unemployment which the right hon. Gentleman quoted, but he did quote comparisons from a period just after the war when there was a shipping boom and when our competitors overseas had not yet received the full complement of aid. Yet, when we quote the period in referring to rationing and other Socialist controls, we are told that that period was too near the war to pass a fair judgment on the Labour Government.
Mr. J. Hynd: The hon. Gentleman refers to rationing, but is he not aware that rationing was introduced not by the Labour Government but by the Churchill Government?
Mr. Macmillan: I was dealing with the reaction of the party opposite when we referred to the effusion of rationing, including the introduction of bread rationing.
The main line of attack in the debate seems rather inconsistent. First, we are accused of spending too little and too late and then of spending too much, and of being unable to manage it anyway. The right hon. Gentleman added to the confusion by saying that it was will power and not committees which would solve our problems. Yet he had spent a good proportion of his speech deploring the fact that the Tory Party had abolished a number of the committees on which he had relied.
We are accused of having debauched the people with prosperity and selfish materialism and now the social expenditure we propose is regarded as an election bribe. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) said there had been no progress in the last 12 years. Those of less prejudiced judgment must admit that there has been great progress in the economic advance of the country. But I will admit that it has been uneven in both time and place, that we have had difficulties with the problem of what is called "stop-go" and that, in periods of increasing general prosperity, there have been areas
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such as the development districts and the regions covered by the new White Papers which have lagged behind.
The serious part of this debate is centred on those two problems, and on the purported disbelief of the Opposition both in the will and the ability of the Government to cope with them. I will deal first with the question of maintaining the rate of growth necessary to keep going the expansion of our public expenditure programme.
I think it is fair to say, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) pointed out, that now that we have got ahead it is easier to stay ahead and that there is an underlying trend now not only in this country but in the world as a whole which is different in kind from that which obtained before 1961. Not only is our expansion now more steady, but there is a greater realisation everywhere that more positive steps are needed to keep it so.
Evidence of that can be seen in the passage in the United States of a Bill which enabled the Kennedy round of negotiations in the G.A.T.T. to start. It can be seen in the help which Common Market countries are now giving to those of their members who are suffering the great problems of inflation and other difficulties, notably, Italy. It can be seen in the wider acceptance of the view that problems of international liquidity require international agreements and international negotiations to solve them.
The hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) pointed out a fact which the right hon. Member for Battersea, North conveniently forgot when talking about deflation—that the balance of payment problem is the fundamental cause of the stop-go. It is a factor reflecting the conflict between our interests as a banker nation and as a trading country.
The hon. Member quoted the writings of Mr. Conant. As his publisher, I should be more familiar with them than I am. As far as I recollect from the writings to which the hon. Member was referring, Mr. Conant was referring mostly to the sterling area. I do not know whether hon. Members opposite would wish to stop the movement of capital to the sterling area. On the question of the way in which the movement of capital is complicating our

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balance of payments difficulties, quite apart from this point that a great deal of the movement to which Mr. Conant was referring is to the sterling area, there is a substantial aid element in a lot of our outflow of capital which no one would wish to remove. Private investment when it is in the developing countries frequently has at least an aid effect even if it cannot be classified directly as aid. Moreover, there is a real connection between our investment overseas and our rising exports.
There are already severe restrictions on private investment overseas. As I said, there is this heavy outflow to the rest of the sterling area, but outside the area the outflow of capital is still regulated by rules which were announced by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer in July, 1961, namely, that direct investment is allowed only where there is likely to be a clear and commensurate return on that investment in the short term. Portfolio investment outside the sterling area may not be financed from the reserves but only, as the hon. Member for Grimsby knows, through the switch dollar market. Therefore, it is not a reasonable charge that Government policy on capital outflow is exacerbating the balance of payments difficulties which we have to face.
I think that it was the hon. Member for Grimsby who also referred to his desire for something like the United States interest equalisation tax. I do not think that that was a very fortunate example for him to choose, because it is just that tax which has given the London money market the edge over New York in attracting investment to this country.
Mr. Callaghan: What he said was that he thought that the United States Administration was right to impose the tax. Of course, he may have thought it would help the London money market.
Mr. Macmillan: It is a nice point whether the hon. Member's right hon. Friend supported him because it was a good thing as a matter of fiscal policy or whether it was helping the London money market.
On the balance of payments side of our difficulties, we have evidence that the advance which we now experience will almost certainly not come up
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against the checks that occurred in the past. At present we are in a strong position to support a sustained expansion both of output and income. We have substantial gold and convertible currency resources of about £1,000 million. We have a standby credit with the International Monetary Fund of 1,000 million dollars, of which we can make use at short notice, and total drawing rights on that Fund of nearly 2,500 million dollars. In addition, we own dollar securities worth about another 1,000 million.
In dealing with the short-term and speculative attacks to which sterling is exposed, we now have the benefit of much closer co-operation with the central banks of other countries, which have provided us with substantial short-term assistance, and we have also entered into a swap agreement with the United States to the extent of 500 million dollars. Finally, we are engaged in discussions with the other major industrial countries on ways of improving and perhaps extending international liquidity arrangements. The right hon. Gentleman will know, from things that I have said before from the back benches, that this is not a point that I have ever neglected. I am sure that he will equally appreciate that the Government have it very much in mind.
It was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who took the initiative in this matter at the 1962 Annual Meeting of the International Monetary Fund. His proposals at that time did not meet with general acceptance, but there is evidence, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will admit, that my right hon. Friend's ideas are growing more popular on the international front, and in particular in the United States.
Perhaps this is the time to try to reassure my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) about the need for developing Commonwealth trade. My righthon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade covered this point when he said that it was the Commonwealth which did not particularly want bilaterial arrangements in addition to the measures on which Her Majesty's Government are engaged in bringing about the general expansion of trade. It would not be proper for me, at the outset of negotiations in G.A.T.T. on the Kennedy Round,

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to say at this Box anything that might give the impression that the Government were expecting the failure of these negotiations. It is reasonable to ask my right hon. Friend to look at the Secretary of State's speech, in which I think he will find a number of his points covered, at least by implication.
I could here refer again to some of the difficulties that we face by quoting my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Eye (Sir H. Harrison). I know from experience how difficult it is to persuade developing countries to accept our exports, rather than, as happens in some cases, to compete in third markets with their own domestic developing industries. This is a side of the problem in connection with which the hon. Member for Halifax can show great sympathy with the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. McCann).
At home, we have learned the lesson of the past, as some hon. Members have indicated in the course of this debate. We have achieved a better situation on costs, productivity and income and we have achieved a great measure of cooperation with the trade union movement as a whole. We also have a general acceptance throughout the country that an incomes policy is necessary.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East was right when he said that an incomes policy had, if it was to be acceptable, to be fair and seen to be fair. I do not think that we would necessarily all equate fairness, to the extent that he does, with his views on economic and fiscal policy. We can certainly all agree that the reform of our taxation system and its modernisation and rationalisation in the context of other changes are necessary, and will continue to be necessary as the country develops. However, these are not the same things. Nor is it merely a question of the blocking of loopholes, for piecemeal efforts at penal taxation distort the argument.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East quoted a loophole in Estate Duty. I have no detailed knowledge of the matter to which he was referring, but I have no doubt that he will communicate it in due course to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. This was a loophole which, so far as I can judge, was open only to those who held their wealth in more or less liquid form. In referring
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to Estate Duty, he said nothing about the effect it now has on many small businesses in my constituency and in other places.
It was the same with his wealth tax. He ignored the problems and difficulties of valuation, the difference between Sweden and the United Kingdom and the complexity of introducing it now, at this time, rather than earlier, as Sweden did. He ignored the context of the structural changes to which the Secretary of State referred in his speech and he ignored the long term nature which this sort of action implies. He also ignored the fact that it was a disincentive to saving and investment.
Mr. Callaghan: A criticism of the Chancellor.
Mr. Macmillan:It has been said that this sort of tax more than compensates for the disincentive effect it has on savings by the sense of equity and justice which it produces. It was the late Sir Stafford Cripps who admitted fully and completely in April, 1948 the marked disincentive effect on savings which is a characteristic of taxation of this nature. He was, of course, referring to a once-for-all tax and was giving reasons why such a tax on capital should be once-for-all and not repeated.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) called today's speech of my right hon. Friend a reversal of 12 years of Tory policy. Other hon. Members opposite went further and regarded the White Paper as a reversal to the Labour Government's original plans. It is fair to say that this is not a reversal at all but a development of policy. This is not the first measure that has been taken, and it cannot be either said or implied that it is.
The hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) and other hon. Members will forgive me if I do not answer detailed points which could well come up in the debate on the White Papers. I assure the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) that it is not that we do not take most seriously the problem he detailed and its effects on the people, and I can assure the hon. Lady that we are not writing-off the development districts at all.
The Local Employment Act was introduced when conditions overall were improving but in special localities were

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lagging behind. It was designed to give help to these special localities exclusively on the basis of helping to relieve unemployment, and especially pockets in employment exchange districts. These provisions, as the Secretary of State said this afternoon, will continue unchanged, but the policy, again as the Secretary of State emphasised, goes much beyond even the economic field—
Mrs. Hart: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me how it is that since the development districts in my constituency have gained nothing from the Local Employment Act, they are to expect more now?
Mr. Macmillan:The hon. Lady is making a point that would come well in the debate on the White Papers.
I am afraid that I cannot answer the many points of similar detail that have been raised in the course of the debate, but even the economic points of the White Papers which the Secretary of State outlined are wider than the provisions of the Local Employment Act, and are designed to deal with the structural problem. As one hon. Member said, it is platitudinous, but it is none the less true, that it is a fall off in the demand for coal, shipbuilding and heavy engineering that has led to what has been called the mounting pressure against these areas.
I am no anti-planner, but I do view with some disquiet the prospect of the whole country divided into regions, each with its separate plans co-ordinated eventually into an overall national plan. It seems a conception rather unrealistic administratively, and rather irrelevant at the same time, for the problems are not the same, even in the same areas, at all times. We now give priority to central Scotland and north-east England, and I would remind the House that to have priorities means that someone comes first. It may be reasonable to criticise the order of the priorities; it is not reasonable to criticise them because they do not include everyone at once. But the Government are committed to similar action over Wales, and the Secretary of State mentioned the North-West problem, which is very largely one of land utilisation, and the South-East, which is, as it were, the reverse problem of what has been called the "Great Wen", involving a tendency to over-employment in London and the south-east area.
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I should like to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Sir D. Marshall). As he himself said, the Secretary of State has seen the delegation to which he referred, and is now considering what its members said. He will see them again very soon indeed.
The type of regional development envisaged in the White Papers is not the only form of co-operation that is open to people—management, trade unions and local government—in the different areas of the country.
I have said that we have to have priorities. I give one example of an area, the West Riding of Yorkshire, which because of its comparative prosperity is clearly bound to be low in the queue of priorities for this sort of action. This is not to say that there is no need there or in Whitehall for thinking and, in the area, starting action. My hon.Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley) gave some idea how such action could be taken. The necessity is to take action not only to deal with current problems but, as far as people can be expected to help themselves in this field, to take action dealing with some of the problems which might affect them in the future.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: Before he leaves priorities, I hope that my hon. Friend will not forget that Northern Ireland still has the highest rate of unemployment in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Macmiilan:The big and pressing problems of Northern Ireland are as much the concern of Her Majesty's Government as they are of the Northern Ireland Government and of the representatives of Northern Ireland who sit in this House.
The valid point has been made that the success of the special areas set out in the White Paper and of the action which the Government are taking depends not only upon action-taking in those areas but on the overall prosperity of the country. It is no good other parts of the country being jealous of the Midlands or of the motor car industry. Whether we like it or not, that industry is a major factor not only in our economy but in the economy of practically every major manufacturing country in Europe, and indeed of the United States.

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In approaching these problems, hon. and right hon. Members are right when they say that there must be a national view. I am not quite sure that they are right when they say that there must be a national plan, because I am never quite sure what they mean by that. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North gave examples of comprehensive planning by regional controllers throughout the country. I am not sure whether he was talking about the direction of the location of industry or the direction of industry. There is no quarrel about the overall view that our prosperity depends upon development not only in the special areas but in the country as a whole.
The programme contained in the Gracious Speech makes admittedly great demands on the resources of our country. Some of these demands in themselves would add to our resources. This is part of the answer to the hon. Member for Grimsby when he was talking about the difference between capital investment on private and on public account. Some of the spending on public account produces in itself an increase in resources leading to growth.
We believe that we have the resources and that we can achieve the desired rate of growth and the consequential increase in productivity. We believe this because of our capacity to invest in the private sector and the evidence that this investment is forthcoming. Furthermore, the effect of measures taken to prevent balance of payments difficulties limiting the rate of growth shows every sign of being successful here and in international negotiations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear that our capacity to carry on with this expansion depends upon the success of our incomes policy and on not increasing the present level of demand unduly. Our optimism on this side of the House is more justified than the calculated and wishful-thinking pessimism of hon. and right hon. Members opposite.
Debate adjourned.—[Mr. F. Pearson.]
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
Select Committee appointed to consider every Statutory Instrument, every Scheme, or Amendment of a Scheme requiring approval by Statutory Instrument, and every Draft of such an Instrument, Scheme or Amendment, being an Instrument, Scheme, Amendment or Draft which is laid before the House and upon which proceedings may be or might have been taken in the House in pursuance of any Act of Parliament, and every Order which is subject to Special Parliamentary Procedure with a view to determining whether the special attention of the House should be drawn to it on any of the following grounds:—

(i) that it imposes a charge on the public revenues or contains provisions requiring payments to be made to the Exchequer or any Government Department or to any local or public authority in consideration of any licence or consent, or of any services to be rendered, or prescribes the amount of any such charge or payments;

(ii) that it is made in pursuance of an enactment containing specific provisions excluding it from challenge in the courts, either at all times or after the expiration of a specified period;

(iii) that it appears to make some unusual or unexpected use of the powers conferred by the Statute under which it is made;

(iv) that it purports to have retrospective effect where the parent Statute confers no express authority so to provide;

(v) that there appears to have been unjustifiable delay in the publication or in the laying of it before Parliament;

(vi) that there appears to have been unjustifiable delay in sending a notification to Mr. Speaker under the proviso to Subsection (1) of Section four of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, where an Instrument has come into operation before it has been laid before Parliament;

(vii) that for any special reason its form or purport calls for elucidation; and if they so determine, to report to that effect:

Mr. Frank Allaun, Mr. Ronald Bell, Sir Beresford Craddock, Commander
Donaldson, Mr. Eric Fletcher, Mr. Hector Hughes, Mr. Robert Jenkins, Mr. Anthony Kershaw, Dr. Horace King, Mr. Graham Page, and Mr. J. T. Price:
To have the assistance of the Counsel to Mr. Speaker:
Power to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to report from time to time, and to report the Minutes of their Proceedings from time to time:
Power to require any Government Department concerned to submit a memorandum explaining any Instrument or other Document which may be under their consideration or to depute a representative to appear before them as a Witness for the purpose of explaining any such Instrument or other Document:
Three to be the Quorum:
Instruction to the Committee that before reporting that the special attention of the House be drawn to any Instrument or other Document the Committee to afford to any Government Department concerned therewith an opportunity of furnishing orally or in writing such explanations as the Department think fit:
Power to report to the House from time to time any Memoranda submitted or other evidence given to the Committee by any Government Department in explanation of any Instrument or other Document:
Power to take evidence, written or oral, from Her Majesty's Stationery Office, relating to the printing and publication of any Instrument or other Document.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS (KITCHEN AND REFRESHMENT ROOMS)
Select Committee appointed to control the arrangements for the Kitchen and Refreshment rooms in the department of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House:
Mr. Burden, Sir Herbert Butcher, Mrs. Alice Cullen, Mr. Harold Gurden, Mrs. Eveline Hill, Mr. Sydney Irving, Mr. George Jeger, Mr. Charles Loughlin, Mr. Martin McLaren, Sir Thomas Moore, Mr. Thomas Oswald, Mr. Partridge, and Sir Gerald Wills:
Four to be the Quorum:
Power to send for persons, papers and records; and to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House:
Power to appoint Sub-Committees and to delegate to such Sub-Committees any of the powers upon them conferred for controlling the arrangements for the Kitchen and Refreshment rooms in the department of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House:
Three to be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee:
Every such Sub-Committee to have power to send for persons, papers and records; and to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]

PRIVILEGES
Committee to consist of Twelve Members:
The Attorney-General, Mr. Nigel Birch, Mr. George Brown, Mr. Ede, Mr. Grimond, Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, Sir Richard Nugent, Mr. Mitchison, Sir Kenneth Pickthorn, Mr. Turton, and Mr. Harold Wilson:
Power to send for persons, papers and records:
Five to be the Quorum.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]

NORTHERN IRELAND (ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. F. Pearson.]
10.4 p.m.
Mr. Speaker: Dr. Jeremy Bray.
Captain L. P. S. Orr: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to intervene before the hon.Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) has started his speech. The hon. Member originally chose as his subject the question of the Economic Council for Northern Ireland. This was clearly out of order, because there was no Ministerial responsibility here and the matter was within the competence of the Parliament of Northern Ireland.
I should like to know whether, under the heading that he is now proposing to address us, it will be possible for

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him to raise this matter. If he is permitted so to do, I should like to know whether hon. Members representing Northern Irish constituencies will have an opportunity to speak.
Mr. Speaker:The opportunity that the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) or any other hon. Member has will depend upon the concession allowed by the Minister who is to reply. At the moment, all I have done is to call Dr. Jeremy Bray, who has the Adjournment.
10.5 p.m.
Dr. Jeremy Bray: I hope to give adequate time to hon. Members from Northern Ireland to participate in the debate and I understand the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department is also agreeable to allow time for all who wish to speak to say something.
Mr. Speaker, I sought your permission to raise the question of economic assistance to Northern Ireland, today of all days, to show the deep feeling and sympathy which we in the North-East—I am a Member for a North-East constituency—have for our fellows in Northern Ireland who suffer from the same difficulties as we do. Unless, in the regions which face difficulties, we all stand together in putting our case to the Government, we are very much weakened. I believe that we do not damage the cause of Northern Ireland by pleading the cause of the North-East and we do not damage the cause of the North-East by pleading the cause of Northern Ireland.
I should like to ask the Government this question. What is the significance to Northern Ireland of the appointment of the Secretary for Industry and Trade? This is presented to us as a great new departure in the outlook and organisation of the Government. Clearly, it has implications for Northern Ireland. We should like to know what they are. I understand that the Secretary of State has already seen the Northern Ireland Minister of Commerce and is to visit Northern Ireland shortly. Perhaps this will lead to a brightening up of the economic planning and co-operation between the Westminster Government and the Northern Ireland Government, which certainly needs a great deal of attention.
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The policies of the Westminster Government are projected with a lurid lucidity on to the Northern Ireland scene and it is stimulating to an Englishman to see the reductio ad absurdum of the outlook of hon. Members opposite. First, there is the most unhappy business to which the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) has already referred—the build-up and the breakdown of the Northern Ireland Economic Council. The trade unions bent over backwards to meet every requirement of the Northern Ireland Government, only to have their proposals brushed aside on a misunderstanding of the status of—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston): The hon. Gentleman is now getting on to a subject which is outside the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government. He is, therefore, out of order.
Dr. Bray: I accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
There are many other aspects which lie well within the responsibility of the Westminster Government. There has been yet another in the succession of overseas economists asked to rub two sticks together and produce an economic plan in six months, without any indication of the provision of resources which will be needed from Westminster for the development of Northern Ireland. I wonder what is wrong with Ulster economists, anyway. Do they know too much, perhaps, or is their point of view unacceptable to the Government?
The Secretary of State will no doubt wish to see existing industries in Northern Ireland thriving. Only yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer said this in the House:
"Nothing gave me more personal satisfaction last year than developing a scheme of aid from surplus capacity, which has linked the surplus capacity of this country to overseas needs and has given greater aid than the balance of payments position would otherwise have made possible."—(OFFICIAL REPORT. 13th November, 1963; Vol. 684, c. 200.]
That is an admirable scheme for which Members on this side of the House representing the North-East and Scotland have pressed.
At the same time, it was announced yesterday in Belfast that cuts in the manufacture of steel-making machinery, which is so much needed in Asia and Africa, would result in a 40 per cent, redundancy at the Wellman Smith Owen

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Engineering Corporation in Belfast, involving the dismissal of over 200 men, 120 of whom are highly skilled engineers. I understand that the chairman of that firm is the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts), and I have given him notice that I intended to raise this question tonight in this debate. I know the difficulties of the steel plant manufacturing industry from experience in my own constituency. But surely this is the kind of waste which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was taking pride in avoiding. Why has this happened in Northern Ireland, and at a time when we were told that we had new machinery available under the Secretary of State?
The Secretary of State will also wish to see new industries thriving in Northern Ireland, yet the Benson Report, a kind of secondhand Beeching, has recommended cuts which will mean not only the unemployment of 1,500 railwaymen, but cutting railway services to such places as Omagh, Ballymena, Lurgan and Portadown, which another plan, Sir Robert Matthew's plan for the Belfast area, had just recommended as growth points for the Secretary of State's new industries in the area. The Government may be able to close down "TW3", but there is nothing they can do about the Ulster Unionists.
Captain Orr:I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but we should like to debate the railways of Northern Ireland if we thought that it would be in order in this House to do so. This also must be a matter entirely within the competence of Northern Ireland.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is entitled to speak about conditions in Northern Ireland, of which the state of the railways would be one.
Lord Robert Grosvenor: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The railways of Northern Ireland are, I think, within the competence of the Northern Ireland Government.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker:Yes, but that does not preclude the hon. Gentleman from referring to the railways in so far as they may receive some assistance from the Government here.
Sir Knox Cunningham: Further to that point of order,
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Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Benson Report, a report to the Government of Northern Ireland about an industry there, namely, the railways, which is under the sole control of Northern Ireland. With respect, I ask you to give a Ruling that it is not in order to refer to this in this House.
Dr. Bray:Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I do not propose to develop the point, so perhaps we may avoid wasting further time on it. If hon. Members opposite will read the report of the debate on 22nd November last year, they will find these points referred to in their own speeches.
Surely it is highly relevant that these matters should be discussed in relation to the question of the location of industry for which the Secretary for Industry and Trade in the Westminster Government has responsibility. There must be this interplay between the two Governments. That is the kind of cooperation which there must be in order to solve the enormously difficult problems which Northern Ireland faces today. If the Secretary of State has responsibility for holding the balance between the different regions of Great Britain, that responsibility should include Northern Ireland.
Would it not be sensible for the Home Secretary to continue to exercise oversight and responsibility for constitutional and general matters relating to Northern Ireland, economic affairs being handed over to the Secretary of State for inclusion within his oversight of regional affairs in this country? He would be able to act more effectively in the interests of Northern Ireland. This seems even more obvious when we consider the instruments of regional policy which we have available, the provision of capital grants, training, and the provision of markets.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster rose—
Dr. Bray:I shall not give way, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. I am anxious to allow an hon. Member opposite to speak, and the interruptions have already wasted about five minutes.
The markets which we are anxious to provide for Northern Ireland can be organised only by the Secretary for

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Industry and Trade. We want this provision to apply not only to the aircraft industry and the shipping industry, the provision of markets for which has already been a question frequently raised in the House and not dealt with very well, as Short Bros, know to their cost. The provision of markets must be expanded vastly and on a systematic basis so that industrialists have a chance to establish themselves in Northern Ireland and grow in the confidence that they will be able to sell their product.
We need to take a hard look at the products which can be manufactured in Northern Ireland and, having made a decision, ensure that they are manufactured there. The fiscal means are available. Government purchasing contracts provisions are already adequate for this policy, but there are no signs of it.
What of the "brain drain" from Northern Ireland? We have a more rich supply of high-quality manpower coming to this country from Northern Ireland than, perhaps, from any other part of the world. It would be only sensible, under the tremendous expansion of higher education under the Robbins Report, for the Westminster Government to finance a college of advanced technology in Belfast. If this reversed the "brain drain", so much the better.
If it stimulated Northern Ireland's industry, so much the better. If it brought more highly trained people to this country, so much the better. There will be a tremendous strain on our construction industry under the Robbins programme, so why not allow part of that load to be borne in Northern Ireland where construction work is needed and where the talent produced by a college of advanced technology is also needed?
10.15 p.m.
Mr. Stratton Mils: On behalf of my colleagues from Northern Ireland constituencies, I say at once that we welcome the initiative of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) in initiating this debate. The only thing which he did not tell us—and I might be forgiven if I give expression to it—was who put him up to it! That is the big question hanging over this debate.
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The hon. Member touched on many matters. Perhaps one of the least important was the incorrect pronunciation of Ballymena which was different from the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Mr. H. Clark), who represents that area, would have it pronounced.
One thing which has come more and more to the fore in our debates on Northern Ireland and its economic problem is the fact that we have been cursed by escapism. This applies throughout the political scene in Northern Ireland. There is the attitude that someone else will solve our problems with a simple solution—the idea that the British Government will be able entirely to solve our problems or the flow of American industry will provide the solution. Now I believe that we have come up against the cold reality of the facts.
I do not know whether the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West ever goes to the pictures. If he does, perhaps I can express what I mean in this way. We must now end the world of fantasy, the world of Billy Liar and of Walter Mitty, and come back again firmly to reality. Others may help, but the solution to the economic problems of Northern Ireland must come essentially from our own efforts. It will not come from the clouds.
Her Majesty's Government can help. They can help with an increased rate of public investment. A dry dock has recently been announced and there is a massive road and housing programme. It is interesting that in 1962 thepublic capital expenditure per head of population in Northern Ireland was £23 while in the rest of the United Kingdom it was only £19. The increased public investment in central Scotland and the North-East announced in the White Paper today is welcome. I hope that my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State to the Home Office will give us an assurance tonight that public investment in Northern Ireland will not fall behind public investment in those areas as our social super-structure is of vital importance.
Her Majesty's Government can also help with public contracts, particularly in our aircraft factories and shipyards and, above all, by bringing about

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buoyant economic conditions throughout the United Kingdom which is Northern Ireland's best tonic.
I turn to the question to which I alluded earlier, namely, how can we help ourselves? Are we to give more incentives to private enterprise? My feeling is that we have very nearly reached the end of the road in giving incentives to private enterprise. How much further are we to go? Are we to follow the cornflake manufacturers and to give away a Rolls-Royce with every packet if one brings a factory to Northern Ireland?
I should like to see a small experiment made in State training. There would be no harm done in looking into this matter. A few pilot schemes might be started. A vast labour training scheme is under way in Northern Ireland, and this is made all the more important and necessary when one realises that about 65 per cent, of the unemployed in Northern Ireland are unskilled or semiskilled workers. Therefore, one of the top priorities of the Northern Ireland Government is a vast labour training scheme.
Above all—and the hon. Member dealt with this very fairly—there is the new attitude to regional planning which has been forced into this Chamber from both sides of the House and which we in Northern Ireland are also looking at afresh. The hon. Member touched on the Northern Ireland Economic Council and was, very rightly, ruled out of order. I would merely say—
Dr. Bray: Is the hon. Member in order in saying anything about this?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member is not in order. I have ruled it out of order and it is quite out of order for him to refer to it, even obliquely.
Mr. Stratton Mills: I was merely complimenting you in passing, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on having ruled it out of order. I will leave it there.
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West referred to the economic planners who were being brought in from outside Northern Ireland, little realising that Professor Wilson is from Bally-money, part of County Antrim, although at present lecturing at Glasgow University. But the Northern Ireland regional
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plan which is being prepared by the Northern Ireland Government in conjunction with N.E.D.C. will make a valuable contribution.
Above all, there is in Britain and in this House a new attitude of mind, to the value rather than the liabilities of a region such as Northern Ireland. It was well expressed by Captain O'Neil, the Northern Ireland Prime Minister, the other day when he said that regions such as Northern Ireland were not an awkward liability but could be a dynamic asset to the nation in sustaining our new growth rate aim. This essential point has come very much to the fore in our debates on areas such as Northern Ireland in recent years. We are potentially an asset and not a liability. The problem is how to throw aside the chains and fetters which hold areas such as ours until their labour and skills make a full contribution to the life of the nation.
Over the last two years, we have had many stones thrown at us by hon. Members on the benches opposite, but as an area we have very much of which to be proud. When one realises that 25 per cent, of our population in manufacturing industry are in jobs which have been provided since the war, one realises the fantastic transformation which has taken place in Northern Ireland industry. One realises also that although the unemployment rate is now about 6½ per cent., about 33,000 people, an expansion of industry is taking place which shows—I hate the expression and I apologise for it—11,000 jobs in the pipeline in existing industry and 8,000 jobs in the pipeline in new industry, making a total of 19,000 jobs in prospect which have been announced by the Northern Ireland Minister of Commerce.
The most important thing for us as an area is to believe that we have the solution of our problems within our own grasp. No one else will solve them for us. We will get help, we hope, from the Treasury Bench, but the solution must ultimately be ours.
10.24 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Miss Mervyn Pike): I will endeavour to keep in order in my reply to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray), and I

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shall have to confine myself much more closely than he did to remain in order.
We welcome the fact that we could have this debate tonight. It has fallen very happily on a day when we have been discussing similar problems in other regions in Britain, and when we have seen the publication of two White Papers for the North-East and for Scotland. It dramatically underlines the fact that these two White Papers deal with regions of Britain where the unemployment figure is considerably lower than in Northern Ireland. It demonstrates the difficulty of the problem in Northern Ireland and it gives us this opportunity of assuring hon. Members in this House and our friends in Northern Ireland that we have their interests at heart. We are determined to continue all sorts of measures which have been proving so helpful over these years.
My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mrs. McLaughlin) in her speech the other day—and I should like to congratulate her on it—gave figures of unemployment at present in Northern Ireland. I have them here. She said there was about 66 per cent, unemployment, and that it was as low as it is has been in recent times, and that the working population is larger than ever before. These are developments we want to see continuing.
Of course, in Great Britain, as the hon. Gentleman has said, fresh measures are being taken for economic growth in areas for which my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Industry and Trade is now responsible, and, as the House is aware, there is a separate Government in Northern Ireland with responsibilities in these matters.
Nevertheless, I attended last week a meeting between the Minister of Commerce in Northern Ireland and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, where they agreed that their Departments should continue to keep in the closest touch both on development district policy and in the regional development field. The Board of Trade will continue to give Northern Ireland equal status with development districts in the task of steering industry to areas of the greatest need.
The responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary as the main
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channel of communication between the two Governments is, of course, untouched, and he will continue to take the keenest interest in the Northern Ireland affairs.
As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Middlesbrough, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) have said, the fact that there is to be more public investment at present in the development areas causes some anxiety in Northern Ireland as to whether Northern Ireland will lag behind. The hon. Gentleman mentioned figures for public investment in the last year. I have the Hall report of the figures for the last six years, showing that over the last six years there has been proportionately a higher investment in public works in Northern Ireland than in this country. So I would say to him that Northern Ireland has a very good start over the development districts we have been talking about today and which are the subject of the two White Papers.
Northern Ireland has a very good start, and its lead will go on continuing. Not only has Northern Ireland a good start in public investment, but I would remind Northern Ireland that it has also got a good start in the know-how for inducing industry to come into Northern Ireland, and may well be able to teach us and the rest of this country how to induce industry to go to development areas.
I should like, in the time available to me, to give some of the figures which demonstrate the extent of the aid which has been given to Northern Ireland, the extent of the economic aid which Northern Ireland receives from this country. Apart from the depreciation allowances, which, since the last Budget, have applied to Northern Ireland as well as to the rest of the country, Northern Ireland's expenditure on investment in industry is generally increasing.
In 1962–63, provision for industrial development programme estimates totalled about £14.075 million and in 1963–64 the figure is £17.255 million. This is a considerable increase in the amount of aid. Under this programme there is Government factory building including advance factories. In 1963-64, the provisional estimate is £5.4 million. Under the Industries Development Act

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assistance is given towards the initial cost of new development and there is no statutory limit imposed to the amount or the form which help takes.
At present, the Northern Ireland Minister of Commerce is anxious that this aid should keep well in advance of the aid that is given in this country. On 3rd April he made this announcement:
"Our rates of grant are already higher than those in Great Britain, and we intend to keep ahead by increasing our assistance for suitable new projects."
The estimate for this assistance in the 1963–64 Estimates is £3.5 million compared with £1.4 million in 1962–63. So hon. Members representing Northern Ireland can rest assured that they are still well ahead in this matter.
Under the Capital Grants to Industry Act, grants up to a statutory limit of 33⅓ per cent, are given—in practice they are given automatically—for annual capital expenditure on buildings and plant. The estimate for 1963–64 is £5.1 million against £4.3 million in 1962–63. Grants at a high rate can also be given towards the cost of transferring plant and key workers to new factories and other expenditure incurred in establishing them.
As recommended in the Hall Committee Report, a new scheme has been introduced, estimated to cost £500,000 over five years, which will provide grants for firms wishing to provide professional consultants to advise them on means of improving their efficiency. Other special assistance includes de-rating of 75 per cent, on industrial premises, and a fuel subsidy on coal which is being extended to oil and petroleum.
Also, Government training centres are provided, and training fees are given to firms, and also a maintenance allowance, for training at these and other centres. There are also housing subsidies and the
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industrial enterprise fund which will be established, which it is understood will be used mainly for encouraging management training. Management training is of particular importance for an area like Northern Ireland where more and more new industries with all the responsibilities for training people in new skills are being established.
These are some of the aids which the Northern Ireland Government have received to enable them to extend their industries and the scope of their industrial life. In addition, we have the construction of the large new dry dock in Belfast which my right hon. Friend announced in August. Since we last had the opportunity to speak about this, we have been considering the matter further, and discussions have taken place and consultants have now been instructed to prepare detailed surveys and estimates of its cost. I understand that the work on the survey is in progress.
There is also the Short and Harland scheme. I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Aviation that in regard to the sub-contract for part of the work on the VC10 promised to this firm, although it has not been formally entered into, preparatory work is already in progress, and the position and prospects of the firm were recently—on 29th October, I think—the subject of a speech in the Northern Ireland House of Commons by the Minister of Commerce.
In the time available I cannot elaborate on this, but—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty-six minutes to Eleven o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Horticulture Improvement Scheme
  Horticulture Improvement Scheme
KENYA
  Elderly and Infirm People (Assistance)
  Elderly and Infirm People (Assistance)
JAMAICA, TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO
  Independence Gifts
  Independence Gifts
  DR. SETH MAKOTOKO
  DR. SETH MAKOTOKO
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  R.I.C.S. Headquarters, Parliament Square
  R.I.C.S. Headquarters, Parliament Square

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester

THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK
Arthur Mervyn, Lord Bishop of Southwark—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

LORD DRUMALBYN
The Right Honourable Niall Malcolm Stewart Macpherson, having been created Baron Drumalbyn, of Whitesands in the Royal Burgh of Dumfries—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Lord Rowallan—Took the Oath.
The Earl of Dartmouth—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
2.53 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the statement of the Prime Minister on television on October 21 last that
"there is no question of our going into the European Economic Community"
means that they have now abandoned hope of our ever becoming a member of the Community, or whether, on the contrary, it is still their intention to become a member as soon as circumstances permit.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, what the Prime Minister in fact said in
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the broadcast on October 21 to which the noble Lord refers was:
"It is no use thinking in terms of applying for admission at the present time. What we have got to do is to maintain our contacts with Europe as closely as we can, but there is no question of us being able to go into the European Economic Community."
This is a statement of how matters stand at the present time. The Government remain convinced, however, that the interests of Britain and of the West as a whole will be best served by the achievement of a wider political and economic unity in Europe in which Britain can play a full part.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I should like to thank the Government for that reply, which satisfies any doubts I may have had as a result of this, on the face of it, rather categorical statement that it is their intention, in effect, to join the European Economic Community as soon as it is possible to do so.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask whether in fact the statement which has just been made means that, in addition to the statement about more free trade in EFTA, in respect of which the Government have made a reservation for the purpose of protecting British agriculture, they will take the same steps to protect the interests of our fellow citizens overseas in the Commonwealth?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I thought that what happened in the negotiations on the Common Market was evidence of that.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: It is very difficult to recognise.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, as one who is in principle in favour of our entering the Common Market—on which there are differences of opinion in the Party to which I belong, as there are in the Party opposite—may I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the statement he has made, which I think is reasonably clear, the Government propose to make it clear in their Election manifesto at the General Election that they are still in favour of entering the Common Market?
LORD CARRINGTON: The noble Lord should not be so impatient.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would ask the noble Lord whether he accepts the exact interpretation put upon his reply by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn?
LORD CARRINGTON: The exact interpretation of my reply is contained in the words which I used.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, would it not be possible during the course of to-day's debate for the Government to make quite clear why they did not actually join the Common Market? It has been hinted by Mr. Heath in another place that the terms did not suit them, whereas it was said before that the negotiations were practically concluded and only President de Gaulle stood in the way.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, at the time of the breakdown of the negotiations we had very full discussions in both Houses of Parliament on this subject, and if the noble Lord wants to raise it again to-day I shall do my best to answer him.

SUPPORT FOR INTERNATIONAL AMATEUR SPORT
2.58 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now reached a decision upon the problem of helping individual governing bodies and organisations concerned with competition in amateur international sport on a financially reciprocal basis; and whether they will make a statement.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, it has been decided that in suitable cases the Government will give financial support to British amateur teams to enable them to take part in international sporting events abroad. A small Committee will be set up, under the chairmanship of the Lord President's principal adviser on sport, to consider applications, which will have to be sponsored by national
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amateur sporting organisations, and to make recommendations. The Committee will consist of officials and representatives of the Central Council of Physical Recreation and the British Olympic Association, and, in appropriate cases, the Scottish Council of Physical Recreation will be invited.
The question of support for the British teams going to the Olympic or Commonwealth Games will be dealt with separately, in the light of the Government's general policy as represented by the establishment of the new Committee. I would stress that the Government's aim is to supplement and encourage the voluntary contributions which have made possible British sporting achievements abroad, and not to replace them. The popular appeal of the sport in question and the ability of the team to attract substantial support from other sources will be taken into account in assessing applications.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that this is a real victory? Is he also aware that this is a victory for all sides of this House, who have really wanted to see something done about this? I should like to thank the noble Earl for that Answer. May I go on, after that wholehearted exhibition of gratitude, to say that I hope we shall all agree on what are reasonable cases among the applications that are submitted? May I ask him one further question, which possibly he will not be able to answer: Can he inform the House as to whom the principal adviser on sport to the Lord President will be, because I understand that we are losing Sir Patrick Renison?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not know who Sir Patrick Renison's successor will be. I am very glad the noble Lady is happy about this, and I hope that she will continue to be so.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl to be a little guarded when he refers to our achievements abroad in the field of sports, until we have had some?
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I would remind the noble Lord that we have had some achievements at home in sport. We have beaten the All Blacks, and that takes some doing.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: May I also rush into the Government's defence on this occasion, and remind Lord Boothby that recently we have had some wonderful triumphs abroad, particularly among the women athletes?
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, one word on behalf of soccer: we have recently beaten the rest of the world.
LORD BOOTHBY: What about golf?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: We have also beaten Russia at athletics. I am sure that these victories are highly creditable to the Government.
LORD WISE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether his reply covers the activities of school leavers, our youth and teenagers, in reference to their sports and activities?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My answer and the Question on the Paper cover only amateur teams who are going to compete abroad.
LORD WISE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he will take into consideration that the teams have to be built up year by year by the youth of the country, who have to go up in stages until they reach international positions?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I quite see that that is a consideration, which the Committee will no doubt bear in mind, but the question of grants is only for amateur teams going abroad.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, in view of what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, may I ask the noble Earl whether he can arrange a contest between the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, and Dorothy Hyman?
LORD BOOTHBY: I would not take part.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I hope that it would be relayed on television.

THE BAHAMAS: KIDNAPPING OF ANTI-CASTRO REFUGEES
3.1 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they have taken in regard to the violation of British sovereignty in the Bahamas by the kidnapping of nineteen Cuban anti-Castro refugees by Cuban Government forces on the Island of Anguila Key on August 13 and what steps they are taking to prevent the recurrence of such military intrusions in the future.]
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government protested to the Cuban Government on August 21 about this incident. They requested from the Cuban Government an apology for the violation of British sovereignty, the return of the persons abducted by the Cuban forces and assurances that steps would be taken to prevent similar incidents in the future. The Cuban Government's reply was unsatisfactory, and a further Note was therefore sent to the Cuban Government on October 4 reinforcing the earlier protest and repeating the requests contained in it. A reply to this Note is still awaited. In the meantime British forces in the Bahamas have been strengthened with a view to deterring further incursions of this nature.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, may I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that this question has created the greatest indignation in the Bahamas Parliament, where more drastic action has been called for? Are Her Majesty's Government also aware that the Cuban Communist Government have recently fitted out some 200 fully armed so-called fishing trawlers, plying in the Caribbean on the Grand Bahama Bank and in the Old Bahama Channel and other strategic waters? Can orders be given to the Royal Navy to keep a very close eye on the activities of these so-called trawlers, and not to hesitate to take whatever action is necessary to prevent any further violation of British sovereignty or any further interference with British shipping?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think I can assure my noble friend that Her Majesty's Government do not intend to tolerate the use of British territory for any illegal actions. But I think I should prefer to await the Cuban Government's reply before saying anything further.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House satisfied that Cuban rebels are not in fact using some of the outlying islands in the Bahamas as headquarters for attacks on Cuba itself? Is not that the sort of thing that this is leading to?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I repeat what I said in answer to my noble friend. The British Government do not intend to tolerate the use of British territory for any illegal purposes.

AMERICAN MILITARY SUPPLIES TO INDONESIA
3.3 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that the United States are supplying spare parts for American-built Hercules troop transports belonging to the Indonesian Government which are being used to drop supplies and troops near the Malaysian border in North Borneo.]
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I have seen the Press report to which the noble Lord is no doubt referring. The Ambassador in Washington has been asked to make inquiries from the United States authorities.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, if this information is confirmed, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government will protest energetically against what appears to be the most unseemly behaviour on the part of an Ally in SEATO, involving the transport of Indonesian forces to be used against British troops defending Malaysia against aggression? I see in the midday newspaper that another two British soldiers and three Gurkhas have been killed on the frontier. What would the Americans say if we were to supply spare parts for aircraft to be used by the Vietcong in
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South Vietnam against American forces helping to defend that territory?
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I just say that if this information is correct—and I have taken some steps this morning to ascertain that it is correct—the United States are in effect, if not in intention, waging war against us in the island of Borneo? As they are our principal Ally and closest friend, does the noble Lord not think that something a little more strong than an inquiry is called for; and that, if the facts as reported are ascertained to be true, a very strong protest should be addressed to Washington?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think before one makes a judgment on these matters it is just as well to find out what the facts are, and this is precisely what we are doing.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [H.L.]
3.4 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision with respect to the administration of justice in the metropolitan area; to provide for a lieutenant and deputy lieutenants for Greater London; to make fresh provision with respect to the indemnification of justices and their clerks, recorders and clerks of the peace; to make minor amendments of the law relating to the administration of justice in England and Wales and an amendment of Section 8 of the Justices of the Peace Act, 1949, extending to Scotland; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord whether this Bill will deal with either the ending or the replacement of the Lord Lieutenants of the County of Middlesex?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I can answer the noble Earl only from memory. I think it does deal with that question.
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
3.5 p.m.
Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Motion moved on Tuesday last by Lord Tweedsmuir—namely, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I rise to continue the debate on the Address, and to-day we are going to direct our attention to foreign, Commonwealth and colonial affairs. Before I do so I should like to say that, as most noble Lords know, for twelve years in Opposition I have stood at this Box and taken part in Foreign Affairs debates. In the early years the Government spokesman was the then Leader of the House, the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, and he was followed by the present Prime Minister, who was then also Leader of the House and later on became Foreign Secretary. To-day we have a new spokesman on Foreign Affairs, the noble Lord the new Leader of the House. I think he knows that he is personally held in warm esteem, certainly by those on this side of the House, and we have respect for his Parliamentary abilities. I should just like to take this opportunity to associate myself with those who have wished him well in the carrying out of his new and onerous responsibilities.
My Lords, it is not surprising—indeed, I think it is appropriate—that the Queen's Speech opens with a reference to the Test Ban Agreement signed in Moscow shortly before the Summer Recess. This achievement was welcomed in all parts of the House. It gave gratification and satisfaction not only to the peoples of the signatory countries, but also, I believe, to all the peoples of the world. During the weeks and the months that have elapsed since then, practically every Government has adhered to it. The only exceptions that
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I can recall are France, Communist China and Cuba. The Test Ban Treaty was a valuable though limited step in the right direction. Its immediate positive consequence is to end the danger of radio-active fall-out—a great blessing to the human race. It will also be useful in helping to halt the nuclear arms race. It will help discourage efforts for eves larger, more costly and more destructive nuclear weapons; and it will help to make more difficult the development of nuclear weapons in any country which has not begun to test. These are all rewarding results for the prolonged efforts that went to achieving the agreement.
But that is not all. I have said on many occasions in past debates that a test ban agreement was likely to provide a breakthrough on the road to general controlled disarmament. I believe there is now a better prospect of further advances and further agreements. A decade and a half have already been devoted to discussion and negotiations with a view to securing agreement for general world disarmament by stages. On the whole it has been a rather barren and chequered period, but now a new drive should be opened. Governments should seek to take full advantage of the new opportunities provided by the noticeable easing of East-West tensions during recent months.
I regret, therefore, that the gracious Speech makes no specific reference to disarmament. This is a surprising omission. The 18-Nation Disarmament Commission will be resuming its work in Geneva in the near future. Moreover, the British, American and Soviet Foreign Ministers had talks during their recent visit to New York, and it is reasonable to assume that they discussed the prospects of further agreements. I want to be fair, however, and say that the Prime Minister has made some amend for this omission. In his speech in another place on Tuesday he mentioned three possible areas of agreement. The first and the most likely is an agreement for observers over the whole of the NATO and Warsaw Pact areas, including Russia and America. The second is probably an agreement for the non-dissemination of nuclear weapons, and that the existing nuclear Powers would not in any circumstances transfer nuclear knowledge or nuclear control to any country which has

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not got nuclear weapons now. His third point was the possibility of getting agreement to include the destruction of some nuclear delivery weapons in the first stage of disarmament.
He made no reference, however, to a non-aggression pact or non-aggression declaration between NATO and the Warsaw Pact Powers, but this is a fourth point which should, I think, be actively considered. I realise that there has been West German opposition to this idea because of fear that it would involve recognising the East German régime; but this would not be so. Both West Germany and East Germany have signed the Test Ban Treaty. The American Secretary of State, in submitting the Treaty to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said:
"It has been suggested that, by subscribing to the Treaty, a régime might gain recognition by parties to the Treaty that do not now recognise it. No such effect can occur. In international law the governing criterion of recognition is intent".
So, my Lords, it would seem that West German fears are groundless.
I think the principal advantage for the West of such a joint declaration would be the acceptance by the Communist countries that NATO is not "an aggressive, Imperialist Alliance", with the consequent moderating effect on their anti-Western propaganda. Early success in negotiations along these lines would make an important contribution to further relaxing East-West tension and to creating a more favourable atmosphere for achieving agreements in the wider field of general controlled disarmament. I would urge that when the Disarmament Conference resumes it should do so with the Foreign Ministers of the member nations present. It is important that a new impetus should be given to its discussions, and the presence of Mr. Butler and the other Foreign Ministers at the opening would, I believe, be the best way to ensure a new impetus.
My Lords, as we have all realised from time to time, it is seldom that we can discuss foreign affairs without some aspect of defence having to be referred to. We are to have a Defence debate next week. I do not intend to anticipate that debate to any great extent, and my remarks
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will be brief. As we all know, the question of Britain's independent deterrent has been brought to the forefront of Parliamentary discussion as the result of recent Ministerial public speeches and by the announcement by the Prime Minister on Tuesday that he intends to put the question of Britain's independent deterrent to the electors. As noble Lords will no doubt have noted, the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party promptly accepted the challenge in a speech which he delivered in another place yesterday.
The Prime Minister, when still Foreign Secretary, told the Blackpool Conference of the Conservative Party that Labour would abandon all control by the British Government over Britain's nuclear arms. He gave no authority for this assertion. The simple truth is that it was not a statement of fact. He went on to say that
"Under a Labour Government, Britain's voice would no longer be heard in those Councils which are concerned with matters of peace and war in a nuclear age."
Mr. Brown made it clear yesterday that a Labour Government will not destroy the nuclear forces left behind by the present Government; that it will not maintain thereafter the illusion of being an independent nuclear Power but will aim, instead, at taking part in some form of Atlantic Alliance Nuclear Organisation.
My Lords, the Prime Minister misunderstands the source of British influence in the world if he thinks that it will depend on our trying to keep an illusory independent deterrent into the future. Britain would not become either a satellite or a camp follower of the United States by adopting the policy outlined by Mr. Brown, to which I have referred. On the contrary, an effective share in the total Western deterrent would be better than a partial share in a partial deterrent. As Mr. Gordon Walker said in Paris a week ago:
"What we are interested in is the share proper to a great Power in the whole Western nuclear weapons—which means the American nuclear arsenal. Upon this, whatever we may say or do, depends our ultimate safety."
If, on the other hand, the proof that a nation is not a satellite or a camp follower is to have its own nuclear weapons, what is the argument against Italy, Japan or Germany exercising their

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independence in the same way? That, it seems to me, is a direct provocation to the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
The suggestion that only a nuclear Power would have a ticket of admission to the conference table does not bear examination. We live in a nuclear age—that is true: but nuclear Powers are not the exclusive deciders of human affairs; they are not the dictators of human destiny. It would be a bad thing for the world if they were. They do not dictate to the United Nations; they are not alone at the Geneva Disarmament Conference. It would be an intolerable situation if the great majority of nations were excluded from international conferences in which their interests were concerned—or, if present, were ignored—because they did not belong to the nuclear club. That is not the case, and we all know that it is not the case.
There are many factors which go to creating and strengthening British influence in world affairs: our economic strength, our industrial capacity, our commercial enterprise and the skills and the qualities of character of the British people. To suppose that all these would count for little if we did not retain the illusion of independent nuclear power is ludicrous. A Labour Government would seek to strengthen all these factors, and would use British influence to the full as a great nation. At the United Nations, at the Geneva Disarmament Conference, in the chancelleries of the Powers, great and small alike, Britain's voice will be heard. And it will not be the voice of a satellite or a camp follower.
I welcome the sentence in the gracious Speech that
"the Government will continue to support the freedom of Berlin and to seek solutions of the problems of European security and Germany".
It is important that this purpose should be actively pursued; and I hope advantage has been taken of Foreign Ministers' talks and through normal diplomatic channels to seek common ground for a mutually acceptable agreement on West Berlin. For many months there seemed to be signs of easing tension in Berlin and it has been disappointing to note recent incidents of interference with the free passage of United States' convoys Berlin-bound. The latest case, that of November 5, might have developed to a more serious extent. Fortunately it ended peacefully and satisfactorily and
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without any concession by the West. Moscow must surely appreciate the consistently firm attitude shown by the Western Powers in defence of West Berlin and of their own rights.
Several proposals, as noble Lords know, have been canvassed from time to time with the object of facilitating agreement on West Berlin. I will not repeat them to-day except to mention two of them. First, the establishment by the four Powers concerned of an international access authority to govern access between West Germany and West Berlin on the autobahn and through existing air corridors. East Germany should be given the right to appoint officials with local responsibility to co-operate with the international authority in ensuring rights of access. This measure of de facto recognition may be internationally necessary to get an agreement. The second point is the association of a United Nations "presence" in Berlin, both by way of a token force and by the siting of one or more United Nations' Agency offices.
The problems of European security and Germany—which, I suppose, really means the problem of reuniting the two parts of Germany—are interlocked. Great progress on the problems of European security will have to be made before the question of unification will have any chance of being solved. Here again many proposals have been put forward. I will only cite some of them, without any elaboration of detail, because I have dealt with them fully on previous occasions. They include, first, acceptance of the German-Polish frontier; secondly, a non-aggression pact or declaration, to which I have already referred; thirdly, denial of nuclear weapons to both East and West Germany; and fourthly, the creation of a nuclear-free zone in central Europe. These provide likely lines of approach to a package deal, and I hope they were in the minds of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary when they approved this paragraph in the gracious Speech. Of course I recognise that efforts over the years have borne little fruit, but if the world is to get away from the constant fear of nuclear war and is to end the cold war and develop peaceful coexistence, we must make early progress towards agreement on Central European problems.

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The Queen's Speech also tells us that the Government will continue their efforts to provide peace and stability in South and South-East Asia. We support this intention, as we supported their efforts to bring peace to Laos. Two areas call for special attention. First, I must express our concern at the antagonistic attitude which the Government of Indonesia have adopted following the establishment of Malaysia. Malaysia is a new State bringing together Malaya, Singapore, North Borneo and Sarawak. This is not only an experiment in independence; it is also an experiment in co-operation. From this side of the House we want to extend a warm welcome to this new member of the Commonwealth. But not only must we welcome it; we must confirm that we will stand by the defence obligations which we have undertaken.
The Prime Minister of Malaya, Tunku Abdul Rahman, during the weeks leading up to the declaration of Malaysia made every effort to allay the concern of the Governments of Indonesia and the Philippines. He readily accepted, and we applaud his doing so, the suggestion that the United Nations should undertake an inquiry to ensure that the establishment of the new State represented the interests of the majority of the people. He was even willing to work out a basis for a larger grouping to include Indonesia and the Philippines. But the Indonesian reply was to start a virulent verbal onslaught to play upon the feelings of their people to such an extent that the British Embassy was raided and burned. This was intolerable behaviour. We must make it clear that, while we shall seek by every possible means to maintain friendly relations with Indonesia, we will not tolerate any attack on the State of Malaysia. It is, I think, not inappropriate to ask that some of our other friends within the Western Alliance who have close relations with Indonesia should use their influence to ensure not only that peace is maintained in that part of South-East Asia, but that a new era of co-operation is opened.
Then there is Vietnam. It may be that it is too early to be able to judge clearly the effect on future policy of the South Vietnamese Government of the recent coup d'etut, but it seems likely from what is known of some of those
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involved that it may lead to an improvement in what has become a very dangerous situation. The recognition of the new Government by both the United States and this country should be welcomed.
The Labour Party has many times condemned the Government of Diem for their incompetence, for the evidence of nepotism, for their destruction of any opposition elements and for their failure to create a situation in which the people of South Vietnam would themselves maintain the struggle against Communist subversion. The Diem Government created all the conditions helpful to the Vietcong and it was because of the weakness of the Diem Government that the Americans were required to become more and more involved directly in the struggle. Some two or three years ago when the Americans had 5,000 men to assist in training they had built up a force of 30,000 which had willy-nilly become involved in the battle itself. At the same time it was a battle that seemed in danger of being lost.
It is to be hoped that the new Government will be able not only to restore law and order to ally communal and religious feelings, but to create a new and more democratic system which is, after all, the best basis for surviving Communist infiltration. We must still support the concept of the Geneva Conference of 1954 of eventual reunification between North and South Vietnam on the basis of free elections. But a stable administration in South Vietnam might be the first real step in that direction.
Finally, I should like to say a brief word about the United Nations Development Decade. In 1961, the General Assembly unanimously adopted a resolution designating the 'sixties as the United Nations Development Decade. The object was to double the rate of growth of the national incomes of more than 100 low-income countries by 1970 as compared with 1960, with continuing momentum thereafter. Each developing country was called upon to set its own target for the Decade, and the developed countries were called upon to pursue specific policies designed to help them to achieve their targets. Since the adoption of this resolution, however, very little has happened that would not have happened in any case.

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In June last, the United Nations Parliamentary Group, which represents all political Parties at Westminister, sent to the Foreign Secretary a request that Britain should put forward at the General Assembly a proposal for a United Nations Five-Year Plan as the means of stimulating practical action. The basis of the plan was to be specific targets established by the developing countries in the fields of food, health, education and training. These targets were to be ready by 1965 and, in aggregate, they would represent a definite and measurable goal which all countries, bilaterally and through the United Nations system, would co-operate to reach by 1970.
The developed countries, under this proposal, would likewise establish targets dovetailing with those of the developing countries, thus constituting an international programme which would function in parallel with measures to expand trade and investment. The idea was that it should be a people's programme, in which non-governmental organisations of many kinds, professional, industrial and voluntary, would co-operate with their respective Governments. The outcome of this proposal is a resolution which is now before the General Assembly, co-sponsored by Great Britain and ten other countries. It appears to be conceived as an expansion of the Freedom from Hunger Campaign. It proposes a five-year "World Campaign against Hunger, Disease and Ignorance", but it is exclusively to non-governmental organisations that the resolution appeals to carry it out, though it does ask that States should facilitate their efforts.
Thus, what was intended to be a major offensive against hunger, disease and ignorance, realistically organised to make an effective impact on these evils, is reduced to a proposal that the responsibility for such a world campaign should be delegated to non-governmental organisations, whilst the Governments, upon whom rests the responsibility for making good the Decade resolution, undertake no further commitments. We urge Her Majesty's Government, before this resolution is finally voted upon, to reconsider their position and to arrange for its amendment in such a way that the purpose of the United Nations Parliamentary Group's important proposal shall be achieved and not frustrated.
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I hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will personally bring this appeal to the notice of the Foreign Secretary.
3.34 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, my noble friends and I welcome the allusion in the gracious Speech to the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and we trust that this Treaty will lead to a measure of general disarmament. The United Nations comes in for a slight mention in the gracious Speech—a sort of "soldier's farewell", one might say. Over the last few years I have felt that the reputation of the British Government at the United Nations has somewhat gone down. I am not at all sure that this is entirely their fault. Having been on the receiving end of some of the brickbats, as a delegate from this country, I know how difficult it is sometimes to answer some of the criticisms that are made. But very soon we shall cease to be a colonialist power, except in regard to a few small islands. Then I hope that our representatives will be able to stand on their country's own merits.
Nevertheless, some of the pungent criticisms that have been made of the United Nations by Ministers, not least by the former Foreign Secretary, have upset some of the new States, including States of the Commonwealth, who are perhaps rather more sensitive to criticism than are some of the older States. I believe that a great deal of trouble about the United Nations' operations abroad is that there is no permanent force which is solely the concern of and subject to the United Nations. I would remind your Lordships that on February 20 of this year we had an interesting debate in your Lordships' House, in which general support was given from all sides of the House to the idea of the creation of such a force, although speakers were not very clear about the exact time and differed on whether the force should be created in the immediate future or in the distant future. Even the then Foreign Secretary did not pour cold water on the idea, though he was one of those who thought that it should be a creation of the more distant future.
I am wondering to what extent the British Government have advanced the idea of this force at the United Nations.

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Many of my friends in the Liberal Party who have studied these matters regret, like the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, that there is no mention of the United Nations Development Decade in the gracious Speech, and they are rather concerned that at the United Nations Great Britain is actually sponsoring a resolution to put the onus of the work for the Decade on voluntary organisations instead of on Governments. They feel that this is definitely a step backwards and that such a Decade can be really effective only if it is a matter of governmental and even international co-operation. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, would care to give the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and me his views on this suggestion.
NATO is dealt with in twelve words in the gracious Speech. I regard NATO as the very bulwark of our existence, so far as material and worldly things are concerned. I believe that, however well we may do in other parts of the world, unless we are strong and resolute in the North Atlantic area all will be lost, and any successes that the Communist Powers may have in other parts of the world are due to the fact that they feel that we are very strong in this area and that they must probe elsewhere.
Last week the NATO Parliamentarians' Conference was held in Paris. There was a delegation from your Lordships' House as well as from the House of Commons. We were privileged to be led by the noble Lord, Lord Crathorne, and the Conference was held under his presidency. He is the first British Parliamentarian to achieve this important position and I should like to pay my tribute to him for the way in which he has led the delegation over the years and for the way in which he presided over us in Paris. Like the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, I have been going to these conferences for years. This organisation is becoming more and more important as a sounding board for opinion throughout the Parliaments in the North Atlantic area, but I must say that this time I was rather distressed to feel that there was a decline in the sense of importance with which the North Atlantic partnership is considered. The Political Committee, of which I am Chairman, actually
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made this point of view clear in their report. They said:
"After a year of disappointments in the movement for Atlantic partnership, the Political Committee is convinced that positive action should be taken to resume the momentum of progress towards unity. For psychological as well as political reasons, it is important that we achieve a concrete advance towards Atlantic solidarity in the near future."
Meeting the representatives there, one could not help feeling that this decline was a sad state of affairs. The reasons for the decline are threefold. They are partly due to the inability of the United Kingdom to join the European Economic Community, mainly because of President de Gaulle's attitude; his insistence on the right of France to decide independently on major questions of war and peace, together with his recent declaration that the NATO treaty is out of date—although he has not specified in what way it is out of date. It is also due, to some extent, to the determination of Britain and France to "go it alone" as independent nuclear Powers.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, I was disturbed at the reference by the Prime Minister at the Mansion House the other night to this question. I do not recall whether the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, quoted the exact words, but he referred to them, and I will quote them. The Prime Minister said:
"We won't get to the peace table by grace and favour. The world is not like that. We shall get to the peace table as of right, because we are a nuclear Power."
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD OGMORE: He obviously has the support of the Conservative Party.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD OGMORE: Very well: I am glad to hear that, because now we know where we stand. The Labour Party and the Liberal Party believe this to be a disastrous point of view—at any rate, I can say that the Liberal Party feel that way, if not the Labour Party. I think it is disastrous, but it is also largely illusory. We have not at the moment an independent British deterrent. The whole of our V-bomber force has been assigned to NATO, it will be a considerable time before the Polaris submarines come along, and even then they are going to be assigned to NATO. So I

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cannot see that this can be called an independent nuclear deterrent. But even if it were, it is a direct incitement to all other countries to insist on becoming nuclear Powers. That is most dangerous. As I see it, the danger of a nuclear war would come from the fact that there is a proliferation of these weapons, with the possibility of a local war or border dispute, say, between Israel and Egypt, flaring up into a terrible world war.
I feel that the Conservative Party are making a great mistake in making a Defence issue of this kind, or, indeed, any Defence issue, a political question. In the great days of the Liberal Party—at any rate, the days from 1906 onwards, as some of the older Members of the House will remember—Mr. Balfour, who was then the Leader of the Conservative Party, actually sat in on the Committee of Imperial Defence. In those days they did not play Party politics over these great questions. If Mr. Balfour had not sat in on the Committee of Imperial Defence, Mr. Haldane would never have been able to get through his great reform of the military forces by which were able to put into France in August, 1914, the divisions which came to the rescue of the French.
We also discussed at the NATO Conference the question of the political control of nuclear weapons. I raise this subject to-day for one reason, and one reason only—although it is important from the point of view of the Alliance—and that is that the Press, both in America and in this country, made headlines of it, but they got the wrong end of the stick. The Conference did not, in fact, condemn the multilateral nuclear force; they did not condemn these ships which are to be mixed-manned. That was the heading, and the Secretary of State in America was rung up, I suppose as usual in the middle of the night, and asked his views of the condemnation by the Parliamentarians' Conference. As I say, we did not condemn it. It was said, quite rightly, that it was basically a political matter. My Committee considered it. We said that there had not been proper discussion upon it and it should be carefully considered by the member Parliaments during the coming year; that members of the Conference should raise it in individual
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Parliaments and then come back next year to the Committee, when we hoped to be in a position to make a decision upon it.
I was honoured by an invitation to take part last week in a television show in France, going out to America, with my Rapporteur, Mr. Lindsay, an energetic Parliamentarian, Mr. Kasim Gulek, the leader of the Turkish delegation, and Dr. Kliesing, a member of the Bundestag of Germany and the President this year of the Conference as a whole. I can only say that none of us on that programme—that is, an American, a Turk, a German and myself—was against this particular force. Mr. Lindsay and I said that we thought it should be considered further and more fully. The Turk was all for it. As he said, he was next door to the Russians, and any force of a kind like that would be welcome. And Dr. Kliesing, the German—and I think this was most interesting—said that the Germans also would welcome such a force, although he was not prepared to say that this would be the final control of the nuclear weapon that they would want. But basically we felt, as a whole, that, to be realistic with these nuclear weapons, it was no good having a Committee which decided at the very moment of tension—
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, perhaps I may interupt the noble Lord. I was a member both of the Military Committee and of the Political Committee at the NATO Conference. My view is that the majority of both the Military Committee and the Political Committee were against the multilateral force.
LORD OGMORE: That was not my impression, and it is not borne out by the recommendations, of which the noble Lord has a copy, and which I have before me. The one recommendation which deals with it says:
"Considering the question of devolving control of nuclear weapons is primarily political, and Considering this question bears on the problem of developing a global defensive strategy; Recommends: that proposals for the multilateralisation of the control and use of nuclear weapons be debated next year by the NATO Parliamentarians' Conference and hopes that in the meantime they will be subjected to Parliamentary debate in member countries."
That is what I said. But the important thing is that we felt, and the Conference

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as a whole felt, including the noble Lord, Lord Teynham—at any rate, he did not dispute it—that what is required is that there should be developed within NATO, under the NATO Council, a unified strategic planning system aimed at the development of a full strategic consensus among the members. That is how the various members of NATO can assist in the political control of all nuclear weapons. At a later stage, if or when the actual weapon has to be launched, it is only realistic if it is in the hands and under the control of one man, and that man must be the President of the United States.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: Why?
LORD OGMORE: The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, may object to it, but, quite frankly, nobody has ever put up a realistic alternative. The former Prime Minister expressed this in graphic terms when he said:
"Otherwise you will have one finger on the trigger and fourteen thumbs on the safety catch."
That is the situation. I think the proposals we made this year at the NATO Parliamentarians' Conference were very realistic; that is to say, that we all have a say in the planning stage and not afterwards.
I should like to say a few words about the Commonwealth. Here again there is no doubt that there has been a considerable decline in sentiment with regard to the Commonwealth. It is largely because of the attempt by the British Government to enter the European Economic Market. This has affected sentiment, particularly in Australia and New Zealand, and perhaps to some extent in Canada. I think the Government were right to make that attempt, but obviously they were in a very difficult position because they could not at the same time negotiate with the other European Powers and come into the open and tell the Commonwealth countries what great advantages they would have—as I believe they would have had—if we had gone into the Market.
Now, at all events, I think it is necessary for us to give a new impetus to the Commonwealth feeling, and to do everything in our power to restore and, in fact, increase the Commonwealth feeling of
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amity. There are many ways in which we can do that. One is to do all in our power to increase world trade. The old protectionist idea so far as the Commonwealth is concerned is largely inapplicable to these days. The Commonwealth is so big and its trade so diverse that it is only an increase generally in world trade that is going to help the Commonwealth very much.
As to South-East Asia, I give full support to Malaysia. We believe that the Commonwealth will have to have a regional defence plan in Malaysia, and I regret, as others have done to-day, the report that the United States have supplied certain equipment to the Indonesians. We hope that that will be found to be untenable, and I do not think we should develop that any more. I agree with the Leader of the House that it will be better to wait until we hear what the Americans have said. But we can say a bit about West Irian. I have a Question down about this. Although I am a great supporter of the United Nations, they are no more infallible than any other human agency. They are just as likely to make mistakes, and I must say that their actions with regard to these unfortunate people in West Irian take a bit of understanding; and there has been little explanation.
When I asked a question (and the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, has also been pursuing the Government on this point) at the end of last Session, we were told: "Really, this has not much to do with us: this is a decision of the United Nations." But, after all, the British Government are a member of the Security Council, and they are responsible. They must take their due share of responsibility for what goes on. Unless the United Nations officials make reports on what is happening in West Irian, some of these unfortunate indigenous people, who are rather primitive, will be seriously and damagingly exploited by the Indonesians.
We welcome the new States, and as there are going to be Bills relating to them there is no need to say much to-day about Kenya, Malta, Nyasaland and Zanzibar. I should like to say a word about one State which has not been mentioned at all, and that is British Guiana. We support the Government in general terms. I think that Mr. Sandys

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is perfectly right in general terms. It would have been fatal, in my view, to give independence to British Guiana at this moment, when their Parliament is based on the British electoral system. All it has done up to now is to produce chaos, and if they had gone on to independence bloodshed would have been added to chaos. Twice the British have had to take over from the Guianese Government, and it is due to the fact—at any rate, it is one reason—that the British electoral system works extremely unfairly in British Guiana, as it does here. Mr. Sandys has recognised this fact. He has said that the British system is useless so far as British Guiana is concerned, and he proposes proportional representation. We support him in that. We only hope that Her Majesty's subjects in Great Britain will have the same blessings of proportional representation as Her Majesty's Government are now bestowing upon Her subjects in British Guiana. All I would say to Mr. Sandys is: do not stop and tarry with the good work. Go on with it until it reaches the people in this country.
I should like to say a word about the High Commission Territories, which again are not mentioned in the gracious Speech. My view—I have studied this very carefully, and I wish that I could think otherwise, but I am afraid that I cannot—is that, from an economic point of view, probably Swaziland, but certainly Bechuanaland and Basutoland, have no real economic future outside the South African region. Any attempt at this time to warp or twist their economies, as it were, to ignore the facts of life and to ignore the South African scene, is futile. Possibly on a sort of siege basis it would be possible for Swaziland to continue without recourse to the great markets of South Africa, but I am perfectly certain that it is not possible for Basutoland and Bechuanaland to do so. Therefore, we must live with that fact of life.
That is the long term. In the short and medium term, it means that we must do everything possible to protect their political, social and economic development. I believe that we should encourage the United Nations presence there in every way we can, retaining of course our own responsibility, guaranteeing, with them, the frontiers and retaining
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the right of political asylum. I mention this now because it is coming up very soon in the question of the boycott of South Africa. To what exent are the British Government justified in trying to prevent the High Commission Territories from trading with the rest of South Africa'? I say that we have primarily, so far as the High Commission Territories are concerned, to think of the future and the wellbeing of the inhabitants of those territories. We must do nothing that is going to affect them adversely, either in the long or in the short term. We shall have many opportunities to discuss the individual items, or many of them, in the debates on the Bills that are coming up, and on the Motions that will no doubt be raised. That is all I propose to say to-day, and I look forward with keen anticipation to the subsequent speeches.
3.57 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, may I first of all thank the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, for the good wishes that he has extended to me? He has initiated debates on Foreign Affairs in your Lordships' House for, I think, the whole twelve years of these three Conservative Governments. I do not remember his ever having made a speech on any of those occasions on which he had not obviously spent a great deal of time on research, a great deal of thought on his own personal position and that of the position of his Party and the policy to be followed by his Party, always guided by his chief consideration, which is the welfare and interests of Britain. Indeed, this is a common factor of all the debates on Foreign Affairs in your Lordships' House, and it leads inevitably to a great deal of common ground between the three Parties. To-day has been no exception and there is not much in what he and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, have said with which I would disagree except on what was said about the deterrent, with which I profoundly disagree. We shall have an opportunity of discussing this next Tuesday in the Defence debate, and I would rather not say anything more about that today, except to say that I do not understand what Lord Ogmore meant when he said that the Prime Minister and the Conservative Party were playing politics. There is a fundamental disagreement between the

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two major Parties on this issue, and I should have thought that it was right that it should be aired, and right that it should be put before the people of this country so that they can make their decision upon it.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I do not object to that at all. I think it is quite right to air these things. But I understood—and the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—that the Conservative Party intended to make the independent nuclear deterrent one of the planks of their programme for the General Election. Is that so or not?
LORD CARRINGTON: What the Prime Minister said, as I understand it, was that he wished the people of this country to make their decision upon whether the policy which the Conservative Party advocated was right or that which the Labour Party advocated was right; and this seems to me the proper way in which democracy should work. If I misunderstood what the noble Lord said, of course I apologise.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, commented on a number of omissions from the gracious Speech and also on some subjects which were dealt with in rather shorter terms than they would have liked. Yesterday in the debate we had some noble Lords opposite complain, on the other hand, about the length of the gracious Speech. I do not think we can have it all ways. If all the subjects which everybody would have liked to be mentioned were included in the Speech it would be of impossible length. But it does not, of course, mean that these are subjects to which the Government does not attach great importance. I hope, too—otherwise my speech will be of impossible length—that both noble Lords will forgive me if I do not follow them and answer them in exact detail on every point they made. I certainly will study what they have said with great care, and it may be that my noble friend Lord Lansdowne will answer one or two of the points which I have not the time to do, but I have a number of things I should like to say and I do not want to keep your Lordships for too long.
My Lords, since the House adjourned for the Summer Recess the Nuclear Test
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Ban Treaty, to which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, referred, has been signed in Moscow. It was ratified and brought into force by the three original signatories on October 10. Over 100 States have already signed or acceded to it, and I know the whole House will join with me in paying tribute to the strenuous and determined efforts of Mr. Macmillan to bring this Treaty about. In spite of all the disappointments and set backs over the long years of negotiations, he never gave up, and this is one of his many achievements which will always be remembered.
At the same time it is important to keep this Treaty in perspective, as Mr. Macmillan himself has always done. Some people have hailed it as a green light for reaching speedy agreements on all East-West issues. Others have tended to criticise it on the grounds that it does not go far enough; that it really has little or no significance. The truth, I think, my Lords, lies somewhere in between these two views. We must remember what the Treaty does and does not do. It is not a measure of disarmament in the strict sense of the term. It does not directly reduce the risks of war. It is not a comprehensive agreement banning all tests, for the Soviet Government have been unwilling to accept inspection, which is of such crucial importance for disarmament. But it does constitute a major agreement between East and West affecting nuclear weapons. As such, it is an important measure towards the relaxation of tension. I think that it also carries significant advantages in its own right. It removes, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said, widespread and worldwide fears of pollution of the atmosphere. It should reduce the rate of military expenditure in an almost incredibly expensive field. And although it will not of itself prevent the further spread of nuclear weapons, it should certainly help to do so.
This Treaty is a landmark and it has undoubtedly improved the atmosphere in more senses than one. Time alone will tell whether it is, in point of fact, a turning point, because it does not follow automatically that enduring solutions to other East-West problems will readily and rapidly be found. All the Members of your Lordships' House will recognise the efforts of successive British

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Governments to try to achieve such solutions, and it remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government to continue to work for them in the closest association with our Allies.
As your Lordships are aware, we have maintained continuing contact with the Soviet Government since the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was concluded, and various subjects for possible agreement have been under discussion, some of which were mentioned by the noble Lord opposite. One is the establishment of observer posts in the NATO and Warsaw Pact countries; another is non-dissemination of nuclear weapons; a third is some form of non-aggression arrangement, though I need hardly add that the United Nations Charter does, in fact, already cover this. And there has been a further positive agreement between the United States and the Soviet Union, one which Her Majesty's Government warmly welcome, relating to the stationing—or rather nonstationing—of weapons of mass destruction in outer space.
It is far too early to say whether, and when, further solutions can be achieved. What is certain is that the Soviet Government judged it in their national interest to conclude this Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and that they will be guided by considerations of national interest in any future negotiations I do not think we can expect radical changes in Soviet thinking or in Soviet objectives. The continuing threats of interference with Western access to Berlin should serve to remind us of this basic truth, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, that this has been a very disappointing set of circumstances. If the Soviet Government really want to come to terms with the West on measures to reduce tension and the dangers of war, then they will always find us ready to sit down with them at the Conference table. But if they disregard our own vital interests or if they indulge in actions which give us reason to suspect that they are not genuine in their wish for agreements, then they can hardly blame us if the atmosphere becomes colder.
The exchanges which have taken place, and any which may take place in the future, have been and will be based on the fullest consultation between all members of the Atlantic Alliance and, where
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their interests are also involved, with our other friends outside as well. This is of fundamental importance. Any weakening of the cohesion of NATO, to which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, referred, and of the free world alliances as a whole would be a weakening of our power to deter aggression. In whatever way the contacts between East and West may develop, our purpose must be the constant strengthening of the free world.
My Lords, I should like at this point to say one or two words about Europe, since Europe is fundamental to our security. I was glad of the opportunity earlier to-day to assure the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards Europe remains unchanged. In the words of the gracious Speech, Her Majesty's Government will continue:
"to work for the strength and unity of Europe",
even though our entry into the Communities is at the present time barred. The Government have been working for European unity in many ways in recent months. For example, last month, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary attended a meeting of the Council of Western European Union at which, for the first time since the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations in January, Ministers of Britain and the Six sat round a table and discussed their common problems and interests. As a result of that meeting, which owes much to the initiatives taken during the summer by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade, the seven Governments of Western European Union have begun once again to discuss matters together in terms of common interests and possible ways of pursuing them. We hope that the work which was set in hand at The Hague will be continued and, indeed, will grow. Future meetings will take place every three months and they should enable the Western European Union once again to play a significant part in European affairs.
But, of course, Europe does not consist only of the Six, nor is our European policy confined to developing close relations with them. We have a specially close economic relationship with the members of EFTA, who are also among our closest friends in the political sense. At a time when the European

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Community has been passing through a crisis of confidence, EFTA has been developing a growing sense of purpose and solidarity. By the end of 1966, tariffs among the seven members of EFTA in the industrial sector will have been completely eliminated.
The members of EFTA are European nations with a full sense of their European responsibilities, and they will therefore seek to progress in cooperation—not in rivalry—with the Community of the Six. One forum in which the Six and the Seven, as well as other free European nations, can look at the European problem as a whole is the Council of Europe in Strasbourg. Here, too, Her Majesty's Government can claim to have taken some useful initiatives recently. Last May my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Industry went to Strasbourg and proposed that the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, where 17 countries are represented, should address themselves more closely in future to the political problems of European unity. Next month the Foreign Secretary will be attending a further meeting of the Committee of Ministers, at which the problems of Atlantic partnership and European economic integration are to be discussed. We hope in this way to involve as many as possible of the European countries in discussion of the problems presented by the divisions in Europe.
Relations between the Atlantic Alliance and the Soviet bloc, and the future of Europe, are, of course, of vital importance to us. But our interests and our alliances are worldwide, and I should like for a moment or two to turn to other areas and other problems. First, the Middle East. There is, as all your Lordships would agree, urgent need for peace, prosperity and stability in that area. We cannot, and should not, seek to impose these from outside. But we can, and should, do everything possible to help, both by trade and by the intelligent use of aid, to create the economic conditions in which the Middle East can prosper and in which true political stability can be maintained. I might in passing mention one field of technical assistance in which we are doing some work. For many years the Middle East
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Development Division, situated in Beirut, has made its experts available to advise the various countries at their request. Our technical assistance effort in the area is being expanded by the Department of Technical Co-operation. Hundreds of people come to this country for training and we are making experts with many different skills available to go to the Middle East.
I started talking about the Middle East because there is one area which gives cause for immediate and serious concern. This is the continuing conflict in the Yemen, which has caused all of us concern because of the danger of the conflict spreading. As your Lordships will know, despite the agreement of the U.A.R. and Saudi Governments to disengage, the Republicans have depended, and still depend, on U.A.R. forces in very substantial numbers, whereas U Thant's Report of October 28 to the Security Council on the second two months of U.N. observation of the situation is that
"no military assistance has been provided to the Royalists from Saudi Arabia"
in that period. Even after a year's conflict, neither side in the Yemen has been able to gain a decisive military position. In these circumstances it is regrettable that foreign intervention has not ended, since its continuance increases the difficulties in the way of the Yemenis themselves arriving at some form of political settlement, which is probably essential if the conflict is to end.
Nevertheless, the agreement of both the Saudi Arabian and the U.A.R. Governments to support the United Nations Yemen Observation Mission for a further period until January 4 shows that both the outside Powers most closely concerned still hope that progress can be made. And the U.N. Secretary-General, who has stated that he regards the problem as primarily political, has just sent a distinguished international civil servant in the person of Signor Spinelli to the Yemen as his personal representative. It is the hope of Her Majesty's Government that this will contribute to a peaceful settlement and to the emergence of a national authority in the Yemen commanding general acceptance. Meanwhile we have been encouraged by a reduction in the extent of incidents on the border between the

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Yemen and the Federation of South Arabia. The Government hope that it may in due course be possible to settle the outstanding border questions which have been such a source of friction between the Yemen and her neighbours throughout the years.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend a question? I am grateful to him for giving way. Would the Government consider sending a formal Note to Egypt embodying the very careful phraseology in the important statement my noble friend has just made?
LORD CARRINGTON: I think our position is well known to all the Governments on the Yemen. We have made this fairly clear, and perhaps what we should do at this moment is to see how Signor Spinelli and the Secretary-General get on. But I will certainly consider what my noble friend has said.
I should like now to turn to South-East Asia where the most immediate problem is that which arises from Indonesian hostility towards Malaysia. I agree very largely with what the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said and I am glad that there is this not only bipartisan approach but also tripartite approach to this matter, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore also supported what Lord Henderson said. The hostility arises because we have promised Malaysia our support and we intend to honour our promise; because we have promised our support, the hostility has been extended to Britain as well. It reached fever point in mid-September. British and Malaysian diplomatic and consular premises in Indonesia were sacked. British subjects and commercial enterprises were victimised. And an Indonesian economic boycott was instituted against Malaysia. These outbursts have not been repeated, and the Indonesian Government have expressed some regret for them. Nevertheless, retaliatory measures are still in force against British enterprises in Indonesia, and full compensation for the September disorders has yet to be agreed. Nor has there been any relaxation of Indonesia's policy of "confrontation" against Malaysia. "Confrontation" means all forms of hostility short of actual war. It ranges from making travelers between Malaysia and
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Indonesia go via Bangkok to organising guerrilla raids into Malaysian Borneo. Its purpose is expressed in President Sukarno's slogan, "Devour Malaysia". Its excuse is the Indonesian objection to Sarawak and Sabah achieving self-government within the Federation of Malaysia.
Why did the withdrawal of British rule from our last remaining Colonies in South-East Asia precipitate this explosion of Indonesian resentment? The Indonesians contend that Sarawak and Sabah were forced into Malaysia against their will and without consultation with Indonesia. In fact, as your Lordships are aware, the Secretary General of the United Nations was invited by the Manila Conference Powers, including Indonesia, to make an independent investigation of popular wishes in Sabah and Sarawak, and this Commission reported on September 14 that free and impartially conducted elections had left no doubt about the wishes of a sizeable majority of the peoples of these territories to join in the Federation of Malaysia. This verdict was the condition which Indonesia herself had proposed in order to enable her to welcome Malaysia. Instead, she broke off diplomatic relations and intensified confrontations. The Indonesians said that they wanted to eradicate British colonialism from Malaysia. But Indonesian relations with Sarawak and North Borneo as long as these territories were actually British Colonies had been so harmonious that, only a year ago, we did not need a single British soldier in either territory. It is difficult to resist the conclusion that the real Indonesian objection was not to colonialism—which no longer existed—but to the exercise of self-determination by the peoples concerned.
As for the argument that Indonesia ought to have been consulted before Sabah and Sarawak were allowed to opt for Malaysia, I need only quote the words of Dr. Subandrio, the Indonesian Foreign Minister. On November 20, 1961, he said in the General Assembly of the United Nations:
"When Malaysia told us of their intentions to merge with the three British Crown Colonies of Sarawak, Brunei and British North Borneo as one Federation, we told them that we have no objections and that we wished them success with this merger so that everyone may live in peace and freedom."

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Finally, there is the argument that Malaysia is a threat to Indonesia. Naturally, the Indonesians do not mean that ten million Malaysians could ever menace the hundred million people of Indonesia. Their suggestion is that British Forces based in Malaysia under the terms of our Defence Agreement with Malaysia might be employed against Indonesia. I should like to take this opportunity of assuring the Indonesian Government as earnestly and as solemnly as I can that Her Majesty's Government have no such intentions. British Forces, in common with those of Australia and New Zealand, are based in Malaysia to assist in the defence of South-East Asia against outside aggression. It is through no choice of ours that these British forces have recently, and for the first time since Indonesia achieved her independence nearly fourteen years ago, had to be diverted to assist in the defence of Malaysian Borneo. The remedy lies in Indonesian hands.
So far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned—and I am sure that the Malaysian Government feel the same—we will not allow our justified indignation about recent events to deter us from welcoming any sincere Indonesian initiative for the restoration of friendly relations. Nobody has anything to gain from the present quarrel, and we have no intention of aggravating it. On the other hand, we have undertaken to assist in the defence of Malaysia against external aggression. As long as the Malaysian Government want our help we shall honour that obligation.
Our immediate policy, therefore, is to persuade Indonesia that there are no obstacles to friendship and co-operation with Malaysia, but formidable impediments to aggression. In this task I am confident that we can count on the sympathy and co-operation of our friends, both within the Commonwealth and outside. Nevertheless, I cannot hold out much hope to the House of early success. Time must be allowed for tempers to cool, and the choice between conflict and negotiation lies with Indonesia rather than with ourselves. I can only assure your Lordships, and with them the Indonesian Government, that Her Majesty's Government will be as persistent in their efforts to promote a
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peaceful solution as they will be resolute in opposing any resort to force.
Before leaving South-East Asia I should like, if your Lordships will allow me, to say something about the situation in South Vietnam where a military coup d'état has overthrown President Diem, who perished, with his brother, Ngo dinh Nhu. The leaders of the revolt, the Revolutionary Military Council, quickly assumed control of all important centres. A provisional Government has been formed headed by Mr. Tho, the former Vice-President, a widely respected Buddhist leader, who has been joined in the provisional Government by many of the proven public servants of the former régime. The Revolutionary Military Council has liberated all political and religious detainees, and by various measures is attempting to rally the population to renewed efforts against the Viet Cong insurgents. They have promised early elections, when conditions permit, but have said that the national struggle will continue to demand some restrictions on the full exercise of democracy.
As soon as it was clear that the new Government was in effective control of South Vietnam, Her Majesty's Government recognised the new régime—this was on November 8. At this quite early stage the House will not expect me to express any firm view on the policy of the new Government, but encouraging assurances have been received from the provisional Government about the nature of their foreign policy and their intention to honour treaties and agreements concluded by Vietnam. I thus foresee no difficulty in establishing and maintaining friendly relations with the new Government. Recent events have in no way diminished our sympathy and support for the Vietnamese people in their desire to pursue their own destiny in peace and without outside interference.
I think the House will know that the obstacle is the continuation of armed Communist intervention from the North; and it remains the objective of British policy to play our part in helping, both in my right honourable friend's capacity as co-Chairman of the Geneva Conference on Indo-China, and in other ways, to bring this intervention to an end. It is not enough to contain the Communist challenge. Provided that we

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and our Allies maintain our unity and our sense of purpose we shall do this, as we have done in the past. But I believe that we can achieve much more, for there are a number of factors in the Communist world to-day which should gradually contribute to the improvement of East-West relations. Among these factors, which must have formed the background to the Soviet decision to conclude the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, are the realisation of the uselessness of high-risk policies, the pressure of domestic demand on the economy, the beginnings of a way of life resembling that known in the West, the interest of the younger generation in technical progress rather than crusading ideology and the nascent reassertion of national personalities in Eastern Europe.
My Lords, I should like finally to refer briefly to the question of our general relations with the uncommitted and developing countries, which is of such importance both in its own right and in the East-West context. Here. I think that sometimes—too often—our motives are misunderstood or wilfully misinterpreted in certain quarters. None of us would make an apology for our colonial policy; we should all agree that it has been a singularly successful and enlightened one. The Communist Powers have acted quite differently. They have swallowed up or held in subjection numbers of formerly independent countries. They have given independence to none. We genuinely desire to bring colonial territories to independence—our whole record shows this. We wish to do everything we can to help developing countries to achieve a decent standard of life for everyone.
That is why we fully support the work of the United Nations and its Agencies in the economic and social field, to which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, referred earlier on. That is why we attach the greatest importance to the work of the GATT. Both the United Nations and the GATT will be getting to grips with the problems of trade and development in a new way next year. There is the United Nations Conference on trade and development, and "the Kennedy Round" in the GATT. Her Majesty's Government will work in both these organisations for policies by the industrialised countries as a
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whole which take the fullest account of the needs of the developing countries. Here again I believe that the prospects are improving, and that more and more people in these countries are coming to be aware of the identity of our interests and theirs, in that we wish them to be both free and prosperous and are prepared to take the measures required.
It would be foolish for me to pretend that my future lot as Government spokesman in your Lordships' House on Foreign Affairs will always prove a happy one. If politics is the art of the possible, foreign affairs at times gives the impression of being the art of the impossible. When we think of the allegedly insuperable problems which have been solved, or at least alleviated, in recent years—Austria, Trieste, Cyprus, Laos, to name but a few of them—then we believe that with patience, and determination and effort we shall continue to achieve success in working for better relations throughout the world.
4.28 p.m.
EARL ATTLEE: My Lords, we are grateful for the careful speech of the noble Lord, who has covered a great deal of ground, as indeed did my noble friend, Lord Henderson; and one can rejoice that over great areas there is no controversy between the Parties—a notable reference is to Malaysia. To-day, perhaps the most difficult point for a Foreign Secretary of this country is that he has to work with the knowledge that he represents a Government that are largely repudiated throughout the country. Nevertheless, I should like to give our best wishes to Mr. Butler, our new Foreign Secretary. He does not come quite new to this work. I recollect him as the most patient stonewaller there ever was, defending the policies of Mr. Neville Chamberlain—not a very happy introduction, perhaps, to foreign affairs.
I would put a plea in to-day that the Foreign Secretary should be allowed to do the work of the Foreign Office. There is always a danger when you have a Prime Minister who has been Foreign Secretary that he will be his own Foreign Secretary. I think it important that the Foreign Secretary should be able to do his job, and the Prime Minister do his job. The Prime Minister should not

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constantly be brought in; he should be kept out except for special occasions. I know, of course, that that runs contrary to the policy of the present Government, who have a curious habit of never letting anybody do their own job: someone is always brought in from outside. I do not know how many people we have not had meddling with foreign affairs.
In colonial affairs, industrial affairs, and so on, always someone is being brought in to do the job that ought to be done by the Minister. We have either Lord Hailsham—I do not know what to call him at the moment, Lord Hailsham or Mr. Quintin Hogg; I do not know which he is at present—or Mr. Butler always superseding. I want to see that work done by a proper Minister, and, in spite of the extraordinary proliferation of Ministers that we have to-day, there is this extraordinary habit of there being Ministers of State all over the place. One Minister is never allowed to do his job on his own. Every Minister now thinks he must have not only an Under Secretary, or two or three, but a Minister of State. I do not know why it is. Someone was suggesting the other day that we should look into the machinery of Government. I should like to look into the machinery of this Government to see why it is always necessary to have two or three extra Ministers. There is a Cabinet of 22—at least 6 too many, in my view.
There is not very much about foreign affairs in the gracious Speech—naturally, because the people concerned with Elections do not think that the general public are interested in foreign affairs; and, as this is mainly an Election manifesto, it has not much to say. The noble Lord the Lord Chancellor made a curious statement last night when he said that he would like to have the whole record of the Conservative Government over the last twelve years fully set out. Would he? Would be like to have the full details of Suez set out? We should. Would be like to have the whole matter of the negotiations on the Common Market fully set out? I thought the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, raised a rather awkward one to-day, because this is one of the things the Government want to forget. Judging by my correspond-
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ence, a very large number of life-long Conservatives, who were outraged by the idea of the Common Market, went so far as to say that they would never vote for the Conservatives again. I think, on the other side, they rather hoped that the Common Market was decently buried. Lord Gladwyn has pulled the corpse out.
We ought to know a little more about this because at the time of the advocacy of the Common Market we were told that unless we went into it it would be absolutely fatal for our prosperity. Everything was going down the drain—we should lose our position and everything. Why is it now, now the Common Market has apparently vanished from the scene, that it is all right? What has become of all the arguments about how we must go in for the sake of our trade and everything else? Now, apparently, it is quite all right: never mind about the Common Market. We did hope at one time that, as a revulsion from the Common Market, some attention might be paid to the Commonwealth in this development. I do not find very much "fat" in the gracious Speech about that either, other than little vague remarks. If we are not going into the Common Market, as I hope we are not, if we have some regard to the rest of the world, particularly the British Commonwealth, we should like to find something a little more positive and constructive than the amiable platitudes of the gracious Speech.
I should like to have seen something rather more positive as to what we are going to do to assist the world movement for raising standards in the underdeveloped countries. So far as I can make out, there will not be much left with which to help the underdeveloped countries considering the wonderful programme of expenditure on every possible thing that is put forward in this Election address. Where is the money to help the starving peoples of the world going to be found if everything is going to be spent on this programme, new schools, new everything—even a new Foreign Office, I notice. I should not have thought that was necessary, but apparently they are going to have it.
I find in the gracious Speech absolutely no clear inspiration for the future on the subject of foreign affairs. And yet we have the Prime Minister saying

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that the whole world is looking for a lead from this country. When is that lead coming? When shall we get any real move forward? It is all very well to talk about the agreement on tests, which is very good as a start, but the great importance of that is the fact that we have got Russia to agree to something. What I should like to see is a follow-up.
I do not think the present situation is at all satisfactory, particularly in the United Nations, where there is this constant clash between the various blocs— the Afro-Asian bloc, the South American bloc, and all the rest. It is high time that that organisation was carefully reviewed. I think we want a new start there. My own view is that, unless within a very short time we get a real move forward in obtaining something like a rule of law in the world, the United Nations may go the way of the League of Nations. There is a great deal of public opinion throughout the world to-day which seeks to make much more of a reality of the United Nations.
I myself have recently been in Japan, in India, and in Europe on this subject. It is something in which this country could be influential. I do not believe that because we have not got this or that deterrent we have no influence. I still believe that v e have an enormous influence as the most experienced democracy in the world. I should like to see that start coming even in the short time which the present Government have left to themselves. It may be that it will have to wait until they have gone, but I should like to see that start made by Britain because I do not think there is a great deal of time to waste.
I do not want to go over all the points which have been so well covered by my noble friend Lord Henderson. His surveys are always so careful and well-informed. I would make only one or two points. I do not think we want to be complacent over the present situation in the world. On the other hand, there are certain big advantages. A few years ago the Communist bloc looked as if it was completely united. It is not so united to-day. It is rather in the position similar to that which occurred in the Middle Ages with the great schism when there were two Popes.
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There are at least two popes now in the Communist world, one in Peking and the other in Moscow. I do not say that we should necessarily rejoice at that, though it does make them a little less monolithic and a little more susceptible to considering other friendships. We ought to take advantage of that so far as possible.
Particularly there is a distinct relaxation amongst the younger generations in the Communist world from absolute separation from the West. I think there is a growing interest in the West, particularly among the young people, and the more we can take advantage of that the better. We do not want to be too suspicious. People are always afraid, somehow or other, that if we have any contact with the Communists we shall be corrupted. I always reply as I used to reply when people said that it was dangerous to mix with Tories, that they corrupted you. I said, "It is much more likely that I shall corrupt them", which often happened. I think the change is also noticeable in the wheat deal of the United States of America with Communist Russia. Only a few years ago we were repelled from any trade at all with Russia on the ground that we would be dangerous people supporting the Communists, and now we find America getting rid of some of her surpluses there. That is a bit of a relaxation and a good precedent.
Therefore, I hope that in the near future, as we have failed to get a united Europe by a Common Market, we shall keep on trying to extend our interests all over the world, and in particular in one area that has been neglected a good deal of late years, and that is South America. In the old times we did a great deal to develop South America—we lost a lot of money there, it is true—but it is one of the areas of the world where there is a terrible amount of poverty and distress in the midst of potential wealth. As we have now acquired a reputation rather different from that of the old Imperialist days, we can offer help without being suspected of wanting to paint part of South America red. I hope that we shall assert our influence there, as being less suspect than others, because that is one of the parts of the world—that and South Africa—which are most in need of European help in technology, expertise, the art of Government,

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the application of science and the rest of it. The rest of the points I think I will leave to somebody else. I do not intend to deal with Commonwealth matters; my noble friends will be dealing with those. But I would stress again the immense importance I attach to our close co-operation in everything with the Commonwealth—old Commonwealth and new Commonwealth.
4.43 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, my noble friend, who has just sat down after, as usual, a fascinating and stimulating speech, indicated that he would leave the Commonwealth to subsequent speakers. I propose to deal only with the Commonwealth and not to touch in any way upon foreign affairs. In doing that I shall quite deliberately leave out what at the present time is to my mind the most important area of the Commonwealth—namely, Central and Southern Africa and the High Commission Territories—because I believe that we are shortly to have an opportunity of discussing those vital areas, and if I were to include them it would overload the various things that I wish to say to-day. So, with one small exception, I shall omit all reference to that part of the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, made mention during his speech of British Guiana, and he apparently—and not altogether surprisingly—gave approval to the new Constitution, the new arrangements which the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and for the Colonies has brought into being. I say "not surprisingly", because, of course, we all know that for a long time the Liberal Party have been in favour of some form of proportional representation. So it is quite reasonable and consistent that they should approve of elections in a Colony in which that system is followed. But, my Lords, it is peculiar, to say the least, that a Conservative Government, which in this country has always turned its back upon proportional representation, should, against the will of the majority Party, impose this form of election upon one of Her Majesty's Colonies.
The situation in British Guiana is not an easy one—there is no point in pretending it is. But the last thing that we want to do is to appear to the world at large, and to British Guiana in particular,
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as gerrymandering the voting system in order to bring about a desired result, and in order to ensure that the present Government, which was elected in a perfectly legal and correct manner, on a perfectly normal franchise, is put out of office. That cannot be the right way to ensure stability in what is a very tricky part of the world, and a part of the world where we must do our best to ensure that the right form of influence from this country should be seen and should be felt. I suggest to your Lord ships that the action of Her Majesty's Government at the present time with regard to British Guiana will not only bring our own repute to lower levels than it is at the present time, but fail completely to ensure to that country the stable Government which it must haw, if it is to prosper and if it is to gain independence.
Let me just remind your Lordships of what happened at the last election in British Guiana in 1961. There was a majority there for the People's Progressive Party—not an overall majority: they did not get more than 50 per cent. of the votes; that is perfectly true. But they were comfortably the largest single Party. As a result of that, due to the system of constituencies, they secured a substantial majority in the House. That, my Lords, is surely nothing which is extremely wrong or reprehensible, because, if I may remind your Lordships, in the 1959 Election in this country the Conservative Party failed to get 50 per cent. of the votes. It got close to it, but did not quite achieve it. It is a minority Party ruling this country and, because of the way in which constituencies are limited in this country, it has an entirely unproportional and unrepresentative number of Members in Parliament, and therefore has formed Her Majesty's Government. This is the way that we believe democracy should work this is the way it has worked in this country, and this is the way we have laid it down it should work in British Guiana.
I grant that the Opposition Parties, and those people who disagreed with the Government in British Guiana, did not behave with quite the same restraint with which the Opposition to Her Majesty's Government in this country has behaved during these past difficult years. I grant, further, that Her Majesty's Government

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here have behaved with somewhat more regard—though not sufficient—for the wishes of what is called the minority, but in fact is the majority, than has been the case with the People's Progressive Party. But for all that, my Lords, I do not think that that is sufficient reason for Her Majesty's Government at this stage to tear up the existing form of electing Government in British Guiana, and substitute this other system which, as I say, not only will fail entirely to give the stable government which that country needs so much, but appears to the world at large simply as a rather devious means of ensuring that there shall be a change of Government there; and that a Party, perhaps rather more acceptable not only to Her Majesty's Government but possibly to the American Government, may take the reins of power.
I will turn from British Guiana to deal, very briefly, with one particular problem in what is still, but only just still, the Federation of the Rhodesias and Nyasaland; that is, the position there of Federal civil servants. I do not want to go into very great detail on this matter, but I hope I can convince your Lordships, and Her Majesty's Government in particular, that many of the Federal civil servants, whose jobs have now, through no fault of their own, come to an end, are going to be put to a severe financial disadvantage as a result of the break-up of Federation—a disadvantage for which they are in no way responsible and which, had they not joined the Federal civil service but had remained in the territories, where many of them were, they would not have experienced.
All I will do is to read out certain figures showing the relative positions of two civil servants, one of whom remained in the territory, in this case Nyasaland, and did not join the Federal civil service, and the other of whom did, as he was asked to, join the Federal civil service, and both of whom, hypothetically, have decided that they wish to give up their work in that area because of the changes that have taken place. The example which I will give is that of a civil servant aged 41 and in receipt of a salary of £2,000 a year, who has worked for ten years in the Government's service.
The one who remained in the territory will now be entitled to a lump sum compensation of £8,540; the one who has
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joined the Federal civil service will be entitled to no compensation of any kind whatsoever. But, in spite of that, the Federal civil servant will have contributed something in the neighbourhood of £1,000 as contributions towards his pension, while the territorial civil servant will have made no contribution whatsoever. The territorial civil servant will receive a pension of £400 a year in addition to his £8,500 lump sum compensation, whereas the Federal civil servant will receive £333 6s. 8d. per year. Finally, the territorial civil servant will receive a passage back to the United Kingdom for himself and his family, assuming he is of United Kingdom origin, whereas the Federal civil servant will receive passage only to any place in the Federation itself, even though he may have been recruited in the United Kingdom originally. Without going into any further detail, I think it As clear that the position of the Federal civil servant to-day, if he does not wish to go on working for one of the territories, is substantially worse than it would have been had he remained with the territorial Government. That is a form of injustice to which I do not think we should happily agree, and I hope Her Majesty's Government will look into the matter with sympathy and with urgency.
Now I should like to turn to the rather more general matters affecting the Commonwealth. I would start by quoting from an article in the Evening Standard of November 12, where it is written:
"It is becoming a habit with the Tory Party to make automatic obeisance to the Commonwealth, rather in the instinctive way that a cinema audience rises for the National Anthem before making a wild dash for the exits.
"In the Queen's Speech to Parliament to-day it is said that the Government believes in the importance of the Commonwealth, will take all possible steps to strengthen links with it, and is convinced that the development of trade between Commonwealth countries is a Good Thing. It is possible for a brief moment to be convinced that such beliefs are the root and inspiration of the Government's commercial policies.
"But the experience of recent months has taught that, in certain quarters of the Government, belief in the association of Commonwealth nations goes no further than a firm conviction that such nations exist".
My Lords, I do not always—in fact, I do not often—agree with the things

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which are written in some of the organs of Lord Beaverbrook, but I regretfully agree very strongly with what has been written there.
Far more than pious words such as are contained in the gracious Speech are needed to make the Commonwealth into a reality. Some money is needed—but it is not only money. Some of this can be done simply by good will and by action, but it certainly cannot be done only by words. Unfortunately, there are no votes in the Commonwealth during this coming Election, and so perhaps it is asking too much of the Government at this stage to turn their thoughts to the Commonwealth. But, in spite of the fact that they will not win any more seats, or that they will not fail to lose any seats, by doing this, I hope that they will give very serious attention to the whole problem of holding the Commonwealth together and creating from it a real force for good and for peace throughout the whole world.
I said that some of these things need money and some do not. First of all, let me deal in very general terms with the need for money. More money is needed for the development of the whole of the Commonwealth, and particularly those areas which are now emerging into nationhood. I know perfectly well that if one looks at the figures one will see that increasing amounts of Government money are being devoted to just this sort of thing, and I am very glad that they are; but I do not think that we should console ourselves or fool ourselves with such figures into thinking that we have done all that we should do or all that is needed. Because, my Lords, hand in hand with the extra money which we are giving to the Commonwealth in these ways, and to the general round of developing countries, there has been—it has been referred to before in your Lordships' House—over the past decade a very serious change in the terms of trade, particularly as it affects the primary producing countries of the Commonwealth.
I do not know whether any of your Lordships have read a paper by Sir Sydney Caine, Director of the London School of Economics, entitled Prices for
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Primary Producers, but if you have you will have noticed, on page 11, a very significant table in which it gives the movements of the prices of manufactured goods, those exported from countries like our own, the rich countries, to the poorer countries, the primary producing countries, and the prices of primary commodities. In the period from 1955 to 1963, there has been a rise in the prices of manufactured goods of about 9½ per cent.—just under 10 per cent. The price that those countries have to pay for our manufactured goods has risen by nearly 10 per cent. On the other hand, the price for primary commodities, food products, has fallen by 6 per cent., for non-food agricultural products by 12 per cent., and for nonferrous base metals by some 25 per cent. In other words, the prices of the main exports of those countries to ourselves have all fallen by substantial percentages, while the prices of our exports to them have risen by nearly 10 per cent. That, as the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, pointed out to your Lordships on a previous occasion, has far more than swallowed up all the aid that we have given to them. Therefore we cannot sit back and smile smugly and say, "Look at the millions we are giving them", when, in fact, with the other hand, we are tucking away more than we are giving them.
I once more urge upon your Lordships that the only satisfactory long-term answer to this problem is to enter into long-term agreements with Commonwealth countries for their primary products. If your Lordships wish for an example I would refer you to the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement which has not only brought stability to those countries of the Commonwealth which produce sugar but which, it is worth reminding ourselves, does at the present time confer a very real benefit upon this country, not (owing to the rather complicated and curious manner in which it works) to the consumer of this country; but into the Exchequer maw goes a very substantial amount of money. This is because, as your Lordships will know, the price of sugar to-day on the world market is in excess of £100 a ton whereas the price of sugar which we buy under the Commonwealth Agreement is under £50 a ton. So it would not be right to think of this as being

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a disguised form of charity to the Commonwealth countries; it is going to be good for their business development and their industrial and agricultural development, but also good for us commercially as well as in other ways. So, my Lords, I would once more urge upon the Government to give serious thought to this matter as a means of helping the Commonwealth.
The third point I would put to the Government—and this would cost a very small amount of money—is that, as we give these countries technical aid, we should bear in mind the fact that many of those which are facing independence for the first time, or have faced it in the last ten years, experience similar problems one to another. But there is at the present time no clearing-house to supply information on the problems which will arise and how they have been met in other countries. I am thinking, in particular (although it could apply to other aspects) of agriculture and agrarian matters. There are many countries in the Commonwealth to-day which are going through a transition from tribal ownership to some more modern form of agriculture. This is a very difficult transition indeed. It took us from the Norman Conquest to the time of the first enclosures to achieve anything like success in this respect. These countries are now being forced to do it in a matter of a few years.
Surely it would be of help to them if there were a Commonwealth bureau of agrarian affairs which could collate the information which has already been received from countries, inside and outside the Commonwealth, through the studies which have been carried out at universities, in this country and elsewhere, on the historical pattern of movement in land ownership and many things of that kind. To set up such a Commonwealth bureau would be not only a very great help to the countries themselves but an additional means of bringing the Commonwealth together in a functional manner.
My Lords, let me turn, finally, to the position at home; because we can, by our actions here, do a great deal either to make or to break the Commonwealth. What is more, this can be done at little or no cost. We must not forget that immigrants into this country come from
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the Commonwealth; and if we say that we like the Commonwealth then surely we must care for those people who come to this country, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, called on Tuesday the heart of the Commonwealth as opposed to the head of the Commonwealth. We must care for them and make sure that in their contact with their own countries, when they return or when they write home or talk to their friends about life here, they do so in such a way as to strengthen rather than weaken the bonds of Commonwealth.
Here, I would refer to an article in The Times of November 7 entitled "Facing the Failure of Integration." I hope that any of your Lordships who has any interest whatsoever in the Commonwealth will, if he has not done so, read this article. All I will do is to read two short extracts from it. The first extract is under the general heading of "Birmingham Harlem." It says:
"Integration at school has had few lasting effects. A West Indian boy said: 'As soon as you leave school you go one wav and the white boys go another. You do not mix.' A teacher said: 'You can see prejudice growing in a secondary school. There is none in the junior forms, but by the time they become school-leavers it is there'."
That is not a very pretty picture. The article continues:
"A social worker said: 'Housing is the most important thing—so many racial problems would disappear if we got decent housing. I think the other thing needed is an enormous amount of research. We are just in a hell of a mess and it needs a research team to look into the problems'."
The writer of the article goes on:
"The fact that a West Indian is clever or not is irrelevant, whether he is a good one or a bad one is irrelevant. The fact that he is a West Indian brands him as being a member of the working class used to brand a white man."
That is written by somebody with a very close and deep knowlege of the problems of integration, and it is not a view which can lightly be dismissed. We must have far more research than we have at the present time into all the problems which are connected with the integration of members of the Commonwealth who come to this country. Research takes a long time and it will be many years before we get results. It is an indictment of the present Government that they were not alive to this beforehand and that they thought

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they could solve the problem simply by the Immigration Act. We should have been having this research many years ago.
While waiting for the results of this research, however, there are things which can be done and should be done. I have referred on previous occasions to a small and modest scheme for trying to bring teachers from different parts of the Commonwealth and from this country together in a course which will enable them to understand each other's problems and do their job of teaching their own pupils better. Government support and finance to a modest extent was asked for this scheme. At first we received a blank refusal. At the second attempt we were given to understand that money might be forthcoming in the next financial year. My Lords, we are still waiting and hoping for that. We are not despairing; but I do ask the Government to urge upon their colleagues who are responsible for this form of grant, and, above all, the Minister of Education, to view it with urgency and sympathy as a very small earnest of the Government's sincerity when they talk of the importance of the Commonwealth. It will cost only a few thousand pounds.
Secondly, there is the Committee now sitting, under the chairmanship of the noble Baroness, Lady Reading. As noble Lords will know, the Committee made an Interim Report in July, 1963. That report points out the importance of housing in dealing with this question of integration. It says:
"But present-day conditions are so had that some immediate improvement is essential. We use the words 'some improvement' quite deliberately, because we consider that action should be taken now, rather than it being deferred until perfect standards of housing are attainable."
The Report goes on:
"Some local authorities provide hostels for single men, but we strongly recommend that more should consider doing so. … First, designs for hostels and some estimates of costs on a realistic basis should be provided for local authorities. … Second, the only grant at present payable in respect of hostels is one of £5 per bedroom per annum. This is too low to be any real inducement to local authorities to provide hostels, and we strongly urge that this grant should be drastically reviewed."
These are examples of how the Government can help, if they are sincere, and
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we are still waiting to put their sincerity to the test.
Finally—I do not want to detain your Lordships unduly long even on an important matter of this sort—there is above all the need in the Commonwealth countries for trained personnel, not only of the higher classes of technicians, such as teachers and scientists, but for people who work in banks and offices and people who work as plumbers, electricians and motor mechanics. We can train them in this country. The trade unions have already been approached and are prepared to co-operate; the employers have been approached and are prepared to co-operate. The Governments of the "giving" countries of the Commonwealth are prepared to cooperate. All that is needed is some financial help and a strong lead from the Government of this country, for the Government to say that they will cooperate with private industry and all individuals prepared to help. In this way not only shall we give to the countries of the Commonwealth the trained people, of which they are so much in need, but once more we shall forge links between this country and the rest of the Commonwealth which will live for many years after the financial benefits of new roads, hospitals and docks have been forgotten.
These are some of the ways in which the Government, without undue expenditure—because I do see that in Election year the Government are chary of giving money away to people who have no votes in this country—can refute the article I have quoted from the Evening Standard, and can show that they do mean what they say when they talk about the importance of the Commonwealth. If they do nothing whatever, they cannot avoid the accusation of sheer hypocrisy when they say they believe in the Commonwealth. Let them show in the next six months, or in whatever time they have at their disposal, that they are prepared, at least in these modest ways, to match with small but sensible deeds the fine flowery words they have used.
5.14 p.m.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I rise this afternoon to make some observations arising from the paragraphs in the gracious Speech referring to the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring

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forward proposals arising out of the Victoria Falls Conference on the dissolution of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and to the introduction of Bills to provide for the independence of certain territories. In the latter connection, I had intended to make certain comments on the amendment of the Kenya Constitution at the recent Constitutional Conference and equally on the Constitution of Zanzibar. However, the Kenya Independence Bill has now been introduced in another place and, I understand, is expected to come before this House in the next week or two. Therefore, I shall defer my remarks to that occasion. This also applies to Zanzibar.
I also understand (I learned it this afternoon) that we are to have a debate on the Central African Federation some time in the coming weeks, but, for reasons which I think will be evident, I feel that I cannot defer making my speech on certain aspects of this matter as I had planned to do this afternoon. I should like to ask my noble friend who is to reply to this debate for information and assurances in regard to some of the steps which have been taken over the past three and a half months for the transfer of powers from the Federal Government to the three Territorial Governments of Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, and on the arrangements which are being made to secure continued co-operation between the three Territories in certain fields. I should also like to say something about the independence of Nyasaland and its relation to the question of independence for Southern and Northern Rhodesia.
The Victoria Falls Conference set up two Committees, one dealing with what one might call the past and the other to deal with what one could call the future. Committee A was to work out detailed arrangements for the reversion of Federal functions to the territories, for the disposal of the Federal Public Service, the Armed Forces and the Judiciary and for the means of dealing with Federal liabilities and assets, including the public debt. Committee B, the so-called Committee on Inter-Territorial Questions, was to work out detailed arrangements on matters referred to it by Committee A for the return of functions and in regard to the possibility of collaboration between the Territories in particular fields, We have
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heard very little in regard to what has occurred in these two Committees. It is true that an Order in Council was made on September 27, providing for the transfer back to the Territorial Governments of a number of departments some time before the ultimate dissolution of the Federation itself on December 31. These transfers were made, I understand, by agreement by the Federal Government and the three Territorial Governments, but I cannot help feeling that it is regrettable that the Order in Council was issued only three days before October 1, after which date Section 2(2) and (3) of the Act for the dissolution of the Federation would have required that the Order in Council should be subject to Affirmative Resolution in this House. Having regard to the interest of Parliament in these matters, I should have thought the Government might have waited just three days to enable Parliament to debate and to pass judgment on these proposals.
It should also be noted that these wholesale transfers of departments and, of course, of personnel were made before any final satisfactory arrangements could be reached for the future of the 35,000 members of the Federal Public Service, to which the noble Lord, Lord Walston, has already made reference. It is true that, according to a memorandum issued by the Federal Government, terminal arrangements for the Federal Public Service had been agreed between the Federal, British, Southern Rhodesian, Northern Rhodesian and Nyasaland Governments, and that these included such matters as temporary secondment, the termination of service of officers not to be absorbed in the Territorial Civil Services, terminal benefits and other arrangements.
A copy of this memorandum was given to me by a small deputation of European and African representatives of the Federal Public Services Associations about a month ago. They regard it as very unsatisfactory. They also allege that in this matter they were not accorded the degree of consultation which they were promised by the then First Secretary of State, Mr. Butler, in a debate in Committee in another place on July 16, when he said that there should be full consultation and agreement with the Federal Public Services Associations. The Associations submitted to the First Secretary

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a memorandum containing their complaints and their criticisms. The reason why I feel it necessary to enter into this matter at some length this afternoon is that a full delegation is arriving in London on Sunday to put their case to Members of both Houses of Parliament and of all Parties. They have also requested an interview with the Colonial Secretary, who has now taken over the functions of the Central African Office. I understand that this request has been refused, but I would earnestly beg my noble friend to urge upon Mr. Sandys that he should reconsider this decision. The future of thousands of Federal public servants is involved, and this includes as many as perhaps 3,000 for whom it will probably not be possible to find further employment.
There are two main issues involved, apart from such matters as exchange and currency control, which in the case of Federal public servants recruited outside the Federation might prove to be most serious. The first objection is that the arrangements proposed would draw a distinction in terminal benefits between those officers who cannot be found pensionable employment in any of the Territories and those officers who do not wish to accept such employment. The Federal Public Services Associations contend that all persons are entitled to the full termination benefits, and that to draw any distinction amounts to coercion, since it seems to be intended that officers should be impelled to take employment which otherwise they would be unwilling to accept. They contend, further, that Territorial employment is not comparable with equivalent employment, as was suggested in paragraph 4 of the Memorandum sent out to the members of the Civil Service.
I will not go into the point in great detail, but what the claim amounts to is that comparable employment to what was a non-racial service which is being broken up is not being offered, and civil servants are being asked to enter into what are, in fact, or will be, three racial services. In the case of some of them, both Africans and Europeans, it is also a question of morality and conscience. Furthermore, there appears to be a contravention of Section 40(2) of the Constitution, which was introduced, as I remember at the time, at the specific
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request of the British delegation to the 1953 Federation Conference, that there should be complete equality in treatment, so far as race was concerned, of all members of the Federal Public Service. This was a condition under which they were originally recruited.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? I think he is perhaps giving a somewhat wrong impression when he talks of a racial service. My understanding of the situation out there is that there is no racial discrimination, nor is there proposed to be. There is what is called localisation—that they shall employ, so far as possible, people of the country—but, so far as race is concerned, I understand that there is no discrimination whatsoever.
LORD COLYTON: I am coming to all these points in my speech. So far as the Northern Territories are concerned, experience has shown in every territory in Africa that when after independence the African majority has political power, it has not proved possible for the vast number of expatriates, or, indeed, any European civil servants, to remain in office. The Federal public servants are convinced that this would be the position in a few years in Northern Rhodesia. In Nyasaland the position is rather different, because expatriates are going to be taken on only on contract. But Federal public servants who agree to continue in the service of the Northern Rhodesia Government may well find themselves placed in a difficult position in a few years' time when they may have to leave and when the difficulties of obtaining other employment will have been greatly increased.
So far as Southern Rhodesia is concerned, the boot appears to be on the other foot. Here it is the African civil servants who feel, rightly or wrongly, that, just as European civil servants may be discriminated against in Northern Rhodesia, they may be discriminated against, perhaps under some future Government, in Southern Rhodesia. And, in particular, they feel that, even if they are transferred to equivalent jobs in Southern Rhodesia, they will tend to be overlooked when it comes to promotion. So far as that goes, even European Federal civil servants in Southern Rhodesia are affected,

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because in a number of Southern Rhodesian Departments most of the posts at the top have already been filled by comparatively young men.
The second issue to which the Associations have taken strong exception is that, quite apart from the question of pension, there is no provision for compensation, except perhaps in one or two hard cases. By that they mean compensation on the same basis as is given to members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service in other territories, and even, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, probably knows, to local officers when the West Indian Federation was broken up. Their argument is that hardship will be caused to many officers who lose their permanent career on the break-up of the Federation; that it is an accepted principle in British territories that compensation should be paid in cases like this; and that the main ground for their being refused compensation is partly because the Territories wish to force them into their own service in the future, and also to save themselves money. The Federal public servants feel strongly that this is a matter which concerns the British and Federal. Governments alone and is not one which should be influenced by the views of the Territorial Government. As I have said before, they expect that as many as 3,000 individuals will not be offered further employment, and that includes Europeans in the North and members of both races in the South. They also feel that there will be many others who will not wish to transfer to the Territorial services. They consider that all these people should be given an element of compensation, in addition to the pension already provided by the Federal Public Service regulations.
So far as Federal civil servants in Northern Rhodesia are concerned, the position is that much more unacceptable because it appears that at this very moment a scheme is being worked out to pay full compensation on the usual Colonial service basis to expatriate officers who are already serving in the Northern Rhodesia territorial Service. As I have said, they consider that these proposals smack of coercion, and they are likely to have the opposite effect of what is desired by driving people out who are disgusted with their treatment.
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Indeed, I understand that technical civil servants are already leaving in large numbers and will have no difficulty in getting jobs elsewhere.
I appreciate the problem of reopening a matter which has already been agreed to by the five Governments—although I understand that it was most reluctantly on the part of the Federal Government. On the other hand, I do not think it should be impossible to find a way of implementing these provisions which would be acceptable to the Federal civil servants. It would, for example—and I offer this suggestion to my noble friend—be possible to lay down that anyone deciding not to take up Federal civil service should have the opportunity of explaining his motives in private to a small committee or tribunal consisting of representatives of the Federal Government and the British Government. If he could satisfy them that his objections to doing so were valid he should then be given the full pension available to him under the regulations. I also consider it is most important that there should be further discussions among the five Governments in regard to this matter of the payment of compensation in addition to pension so as to bring the treatment of Federal public servants in line with that of the British Overseas Service.
There is one further point in this connection that I raised in a question to the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, in our debate on July 25, but to which, in fact, no reply was given. I should like to ask my noble friend who is to reply to-day whether he can give an assurance that Federal civil servants will be granted the benefits of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962, whereby pensioners of former British Overseas Service Territories will be given increases based on rises in the cost of living on the analogy of the Home civil servants, and paid for by Her Majesty's Government in cases where the successor Government has not introduced such increases. This right, your Lordships will remember, largely through pressure in this House was made applicable to British officials of the Sudan and Egypt, and it seems to me almost axiomatic that it should also be made applicable to members of the former Federal civil service whether they be in Southern

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Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia or Nyasaland. Indeed, in this case it seems to be absolutely essential, as there will be no successor Government with any funds to meet such increases. So far as members of the three territorial services are concerned, I presume that on attaining independence, as indeed also in Kenya and Zanzibar, they will be added to the list of territories covered by Schedule 3 of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962.
As regards the other matters arising out of the break-up of the Federation, I hope my noble friend will be able to give us a good deal more information than we have at present. A very large number of functions have already been transferred to the Territorial Governments including, in the case of Nyasaland, the railways and harbours, and throughout the Federation irrigation work, other than Kariba, trunk roads, tourism, prisons, aviation, other than Central African Airways, large sections of agriculture, the health services, Customs and Excise and income tax. I can hardly agree that these are matters of minor importance which can appropriately be dealt with by the Negative Resolution procedure, as has now been done.
Nevertheless, there are still a great many matters on which we are quite ignorant as to what progress is being made. What is being done, for instance, about the public debt and, in particular, the replacement of existing Federal guarantees, which is particularly necessary in the case of external loans held in the United States and listed on the New York Stock Exchange and which presents great problems? Are Her Majesty's Government, as I believe is essential, to be associated with the renewal of these guarantees? What is happening in regard to the guarantees of the funds raised for the construction of Kariba, some of which were guaranteed jointly by Her Majesty's Government and the Federal Government, and others by the Federal Government alone? The agreement for the establishment of joint control by the Governments of Northern and Southern Rhodesia of the Kariba scheme, which was announced on October 31, and its development as a single entity, which we all welcome, contains no reference whatever to the renewal of financial
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guarantees of loans. Can we be told to-day whether Her Majesty's Government will continue their association with all or part of these guarantees?
Then again, what is happening about future inter-territorial collaboration in other fields? What are the arrangements to be for the Rhodesian railways, for Central African Airways, and for continued collaboration in such important fields of health as malaria control and tsetse control? There are many fields in which this collaboration should continue, and I am sure that Parliament would like to know what is being planned, and not simply be presented with a fait accompli which we should then be asked to endorse with a rubber stamp. Already agreement has apparently been reached for the break-up of the Central Bank of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, and Northern Rhodesia is to have a separate currency and a separate bank. The Customs Union is also to go, and Northern Rhodesia is planning to introduce customs tariffs against Southern Rhodesia, as well as the rest of the world, to protect certain embryo industries. Is there to be a joint Court of Appeal for the three Territories, such as existed before federation? The Lord Chancellor told us on July 25 that this was a matter for the Territories themselves, but, surely, so long as they are not independent it is a matter on which Her Majesty's Government also should have something to say. Is the right of appeal to the Privy Council to continue? The announcement on November 5 of the new Northern Rhodesian Constitution, but of which we have no details, says nothing whatever on this point.
The gracious Speech foresees legislation to provide for the independence of Nyasaland. It says nothing about independence for Northern Rhodesia or Southern Rhodesia. According to the agreement reached by Dr. Banda, Nyasaland is to receive its independence on July 6 next. Since this House last met I have been receiving a series of most alarming reports about the erosion of law and order in Nyasaland. I had occasion to draw the attention of the then First Secretary of State to some of these cases earlier in September, and since then I have received further particulars of a whole series of arrests and imprisonment of Africans in Nyasaland

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on the most trivial grounds, some of them arising out of alleged disrespect for Dr. Banda or refusal to take up membership of the Malawi Party. I have just seen a letter from Mr. Kumbikano, who represented the Nyasaland Africans in the Federal Assembly in 1953, which reads as follows:
"The erosion of the rule of law in Nyasaland is widespread and can only be compared to the bad old times before the establishment of British protection ever this country when the rule was 'Survival of the strongest only'."
Then he goes on to deplore the state of the Church, and in particular the Church of Scotland in Nyasaland under existing conditions.
Is this really the sort of Government to which we intend to hand over on independence? Does the present Colonial Secretary adhere to the criteria which were laid down by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer when, in opening the 1962 Lancaster House Kenya Conference, he said that our responsibility could not be discharged
"unless we can be sure that when the time of independence comes we shall be handing over authority in Kenya to a stable régime, free from oppression and free from racial discrimination."
When the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition was yesterday inveighing against democracy in Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries, I wondered what he would have to say about the sort of democracy now being practised by Dr. Banda in Nyasaland and which is threatened to be pursued by Mr. Kaunda in Northern Rhodesia. Speaking of the Bill of Rights as a means of protecting minority groups, Dr. Banda, at his first Press conference after becoming Prime Minister, described it as just a piece of paper, and went on to say that any European who did not realise that was living in a fool's paradise. The continued acts of violence which are now being perpetrated against the African National Congress by the majority U.N.I.P. Party in Northern Rhodesia can also only lead to the conclusion that in that country, too, they are heading for a one-Party dictatorship.
Knowing and hearing of these things, is it at all surprising that in Southern Rhodesia both the Government and the Opposition, Europeans and moderate Africans, should wish to take a slower road to full majority rule? And is there
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any reason why on this account Southern Rhodesia should be deprived of its right to full independence at the dissolution of the Federation? After all, except in the most limited field it has been fully independent for nearly forty years. Is it surprising that Southern Rhodesian leaders are getting restive in the absence of any reply by Her Majesty's Government to their demands for independence, more particularly having regard to the barrage of assaults which are launched upon them in the United Nations? I would only say that Her Majesty's Government are to be warmly congratulated on staunchly resisting these onslaughts, both on Southern Rhodesia and on themselves.
I would ask Her Majesty's Government to disregard these assaults made upon them in the United Nations, and I also ask them to take action in the very near future, as soon as possible after the dissolution of the Federation, to grant independence to Southern Rhodesia. I think it is most regrettable that a man of moderation like Mr. Ian Smith, the Deputy Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia, commenting on his recent talks in London, should find himself forced to say:
"We might be driven into a position where we might have to resort to action which we would be very reluctant to take."
How can Her Majesty's Government contemplate granting independence to Nyasaland, and presumably later to Northern Rhodesia, in the face of this violence and erosion of law and order, and the certainty of a one-Party Government, to which I have already referred, and at the same time deny it to Southern Rhodesia, where both Parties in Parliament are committed to advance to full African political and Parliamentary equality by peaceful and orderly means?
I beg Her Majesty's Government in this matter not to allow themselves to be influenced by pressures, external or internal, or by any considerations of electoral advantage, but to go ahead and grant independence to Southern Rhodesia in the full knowledge of our experience elsewhere all over Africa, from Ghana to the Republic of South Africa, that a system of balanced and orderly progress towards a multiracial

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democracy is the only one which corresponds with the real interests of the country and its peoples of all races.
5.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I think that your Lordships would expect me, in winding up this debate for the Opposition, to pay our tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for what should be the highlight of the debate, his first important speech on foreign affairs. We envy his quick mastery of a largely new subject and we followed with great interest his extended tour of the world's trouble spots, and I am sure I am speaking for all noble Lords when I say that the very high standard set by one of his predecessors, the former Foreign Secretary, has been admirably maintained.
My noble friends Lord Henderson and Lord Attlee have put the point of view of the Opposition about the Government's handling of foreign affairs, and they have put that point of view with much clarity and objectivity. It has therefore fallen to me, following in the steps of my noble friend Lord Walston, to put the point of view of the Opposition about the Government's handling of our relations with our Colonial and Commonwealth partners. But, first of all, may I say this? I listened with great sympathy to what the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, and my noble friend Lord Walston said about the future of the Federal Civil Service in the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, and I am sure your Lordships will study their case with the utmost possible care. At the same time, on November 27 we are having a debate on Central and Southern Africa initiated by my noble friend Lord Walston, who has spent a great deal of time lately in that part of the world, and I propose to reserve my observations for that occasion; and we certainly will not cast blame on the noble Marquess if he reserves some of his fire for the later debate.
In scanning the gracious Speech for some reference to the Commonwealth, I must admit that I was a little puzzled at the following words: that the Government
"will continue to take all possible steps to strengthen the links between the Governments, and peoples, of the Commonwealth."
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How can a Government continue to do something that it has not even begun? The fact is—and I noticed, with interest, that this was also the view of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore—that there has been a steady deterioration in Commonwealth relationships ever since the present Government started its talks with the Community about entry into the European Common Market. The failure of the Government to secure terms of entry which would compensate our Commonwealth partners for their trade losses made them feel they had been badly let down by the Mother Country. But we knew, and they knew, at that time that our differences were economic, not political, and that no country would leave the Commonwealth for a purely material reason. That, of course, put us in a very strong position.
The situation to-day is far more serious because the differences between us are political. The Government are pursuing policies that are putting an unprecedented strain on relations between the new and the old Commonwealth countries. In the last four years of Conservative administration the Commonwealth has become more deeply divided and disunited than it has been at any time since the war. Let us not forget—it is important to remember this—that the vast majority of the Commonwealth countries to-day (no fewer than 12 out of 16) are new countries and non-European, and that 12 of the Prime Ministers who come to the Prime Ministers' Conferences are either Africans or Asians, or men or women of non-European descent. The most powerful sentiment of all these new countries is their antipathy to colonialism and neocolonialism. They are judging us and the value of their relations with the old Commonwealth countries by the speed with which we divest ourselves of our remaining colonial responsibilities in Africa and elsewhere, and by the active and genuine sympathy we show for the political aspirations of the dependent peoples still under European rule. If we seem to be dragging our feet or lacking in sympathy for other subject peoples we shall lose all the goodwill we have earned by what has very rightly been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, as our enlightened colonial record. We are also running the risk of breaking up the Commonwealth by placing our African and Asian partners in a position where

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they find themselves with a painful conflict of loyalties in having to choose between the Commonwealth and their closest friends.
Let me give just three instances in which I believe the policy of the present Government has brought and is bringing these dangers ever closer. They are, first, British Guiana; second, Southern Rhodesia; and third, the High Commission Territories in South Africa. There have been several references to British Guiana in this debate. They have not been altogether favourable to the policy of Her Majesty's Government, and I am afraid I must follow in the same vein. The Secretary of State has just imposed a new Constitution on this Colony the terms of which are set out in a White Paper. I very much doubt whether this Constitution is workable, and I am quite sure it was unwise to impose any Constitution not acceptable to, or, at any rate, not acquiesced in, by both the main races, Indian and African. Those are my two objections to this settlement.
The most important innovation in the new Constitution is a system of proportional representation for the Legislative Council. In this country, as has already been said, the main Parties have always regarded proportional representation as a system incapable of sustaining a stable Government, and that is why we refuse to accept the case of the Liberal Party, even when it is put so eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and other colleagues of his on the Liberal Benches. That is also why we have not hitherto introduced proportional representation into a single British Colony. Yet we are now introducing this system into British Guiana, a Colony which in the last eight years has shown a continuous record of political instability. There has been racial violence, arson and murder, and the Constitution has been suspended for a period of time. Only last summer two battalions of British troops were sent to Georgetown to help keep order. This is obviously a country, if ever there was one, that requires a strong Government that is able to keep law and order. Yet we are introducing into this country a system that is more likely to lead, as it has done in so many other countries where it has been applied, in much more sophisticated countries than British Guiana, to a complete paralysis of the Executive.
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Of course, the Parties in British Guiana will judge the new Constitution by their own advantage. But British business interests can be relied on to be objective, for their only interest is stability; and the voice of British business in British Guiana is the firm of Booker Brothers, which, as your Lordships know, has very widespread interests in that country and can be said to represent the interests of British business there. The chairman of Booker Brothers has described the new Constitution (and here I quote) as
"a contrived system of political chaos".
An even greater drawback, if that were possible, than proportional representation in this Constitution is that it has already proved not to be acceptable to both races. Dr. Jagan has explained and affirmed his dissent. He takes the view that the Secretary of State, instead of producing a compromise Constitution, has produced a Constitution heavily weighted in favour of the Opposition. I think that all of your Lordships, on both sides of the House, will agree that, whatever the merits of the Constitution for this country, no Constitution will work, in the long run, with lack of support of both races, Indians and Africans. But this one, as I have already pointed out, has alienated the race with a numerical majority, the Indian supporters of Dr. Jagan. Even the Africans, who benefit by the Constitution, are unhappy about the Secretary of State's decision, because independence has been postponed sine die.
Of course, we cannot fix a date for independence without a reasonable prospect of stable government—I believe that everyone, on both sides of the House, would agree about that. But we might at least have said to the political leaders in British Guiana that independence would be granted as soon as the two main Parties had agreed about the Constitution. That would have given the strongest incentive to form a Coalition under the present Constitution, or to work out some alternative. What I think the Government have failed to realise is that it is only by facing both Parties with the prospect of early independence that they can be expected to behave in a responsible way. That is what I think my noble friend Lord Attlee did with so much success in the case

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of India and Pakistan and this calculated risk of giving independence should be the model for other British dependencies.
I cannot help feeling that the Secretary of State was in a bit of a hurry. I cannot help wishing he had postponed last month's Constitutional Conference, as both Dr. Jagan and Mr. Burnham wanted him to do. There were very few things they ever agreed about, but they did about that: they wanted a Commonwealth good offices mission to go to British Guiana to try to find a modus vivendi between the races. This, was something that both sides desired, and a chance—of course, nobody could say that it would do the trick—of bringing the two races together. But the Secretary of State has rejected this offer in favour of an imposed solution which has made the racial division even deeper. I can only hope—this is, I think, the only hope anyone can express—that the leaders and people of British Guiana, for whom I and others who know them have much affection and respect, will prove me entirely wrong by behaving with a much greater sense of responsibility than we in this country deserve to expect of them.
Whatever may happen in British Guiana, I again think your Lordships would agree that the real test of British policy in relation to the dependent Commonwealth will come in Africa. And here may I tell your Lordships something which I learned in Africa?—I did not know before, though there are some of your Lordships who may know it already. It is that the loyalty that African countries feel towards their fellow Africans, which is expressed in the policy of pan-Africanism, is even stronger than their loyalty to the Commonwealth. And this means that if we force them, by our policy, to choose between Africa and the Commonwealth, they will choose Africa. That is exactly the position we have to avoid. We must not put them in this position of a conflict of loyalties in which they have to choose between two loyalties, both of which are genuine but one of which is stronger than the other. Yet that is exactly the position towards which we are drifting by our policy, and even more by our lack of policy, in Central and Southern Africa.
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The winding up of the Federation, which had lost us the good will of the Africans by its imposition and then of the Europeans by its dissolution—a case of killing two birds with one stone, which is a remarkable achievement for any Government—has, at any rate, cleared the way for independence for the two Northern Territories, Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland. They should be independent, one hopes, next year. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, about these two territories. I take the view that when a country is given freedom, that means freedom to choose its own form of government, and I do not see any reason why we should think we should dictate the form of government it chooses.
They very fact of independence for the Northern Territories has sharpened the claim of Southern Rhodesia. I am glad that the Prime Minister gave nothing away to Mr. Smith during his recent visit to London, when no doubt the question of independence, among other mattes, was raised. But this negative attitude to Southern Rhodesia is insufficient and inadequate. The future of Southern Rhodesia is a matter of profound concern to the whole world, but especially to Africa, to the Commonwealth and to the United Nations. They are entitled to know where Britain stands, and what the positive policy of the British Government is. It is only by stating our policy with the utmost clarity and firmness that we can avoid the misunderstanding in Southern Rhodesia that independence can be gained by minor concessions about discrimination or African political advance. That could be a very serious misunderstanding indeed.
I was hoping that a statement of this kind about policy in relation to Southern Rhodesia would have been included in the gracious Speech, or, at least, since it was not in the gracious Speech, as a main feature in the Speech made by the Prime Minister in another place. I must admit I was astonished at the way a statement of this importance was made in another place. It came out, apparently quite by accident, in reply to a question put by the Leader of the Opposition at the tail end of the Prime Minister's speech. With your Lordships permission, I will read question and

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answer. [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 684 (No. 1), col. 53]:
"MR. HAROLD WILSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman now give a pledge that there will not be independence until there is a democratic Constitution?
THE PRIME MINISTER: I thought that implicit in what I said. In fact, I did say that we accept the principle that majorities should rule".
May I ask the noble Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, to answer these two questions when he comes to reply to the debate? The first is: Does the Prime Minister's statement in another place represent Government policy? The second is this: Is this policy in fact to withhold independence from Southern Rhodesia until there is a democratic Constitution? I think it is fair that I should put those questions to the noble Marquess who is answering for the Government as it will give him an opportunity for putting in your Lordships' House as clearly as possible, and with his authority, what has already been said in another place. I think it is particularly important that this statement should come from the noble Marquess as a senior Minister in the Department now responsible for Southern Rhodesia, since the change of responsibilities under the new Government, and that it should not be left as it is at the moment to a chance reply made by the Prime Minister in the course of the debate in another place. Once we have stated our intention about majority rule as the condition of independence we can surely from that point seek the co-operation of both races in Southern Rhodesia to obtain independence as quickly as possible, and we shall also be able to answer our critics in the United Nations and to reassure the Commonwealth about the risk of a split.
I am only a little less anxious than I am about Southern Rhodesia about a clear policy in relation to the High Commission Territories, Bechuanaland, Swaziland and Basutoland. I am sure that we can tell these Territories not only that we are aiming at independence—they all know that—but what the conditions of their independence will be and what sort of form it will take. For instance, may I ask the noble Marquess this question? Do the Government take the view that these three Territories, with their small population and scanty resources, will be politically viable? Can they become separate nations? If not,
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do the Government contemplate, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, seemed to suggest, a special relationship with the United Nations or possibly with other African countries? Another question that I should like to address to the noble Marquess is: what arrangements can be made about defence and continuing economic aid, without which the independence of these territories would be a complete sham? I hope that the Government will state their intentions about the future of these territories at the earliest possible moment—if not to-day, if the noble Marquess feels that he has not had time enough for discussion with his colleagues, then in the debate on Wednesday week.
I think it particularly important for the reason that South Africa has already made a bid for their allegiance by offering them the economic advantages of inclusion in a South African Bantustan. Their economic and tribal ties are of course closest with South Africa. It is surely our responsibility as the Mother Country that we must be able to offer them real political freedom without the indignity and the horror of apartheid. We know that this talk of political independence is not something that just comes from hotheads on the political left in this country. We know that the people of these territories, in spite of their economic and educational backwardness, are already asking for independence. An example of this was the report of the Basutoland Constitutional Commission which has asked for independence for Basutoland in 1965. I understand that the Secretary of State has already rejected this proposal. In any event, that was what I read in the Press, and I should like that confirmed or denied by the noble Marquess.
If this is the case it was surprising that he did it before the proposal had been discussed by the Legislative Council in Basutoland. Is this the way a young Parliament should be treated? Whatever the merits of this proposal, the representatives of Basutoland are surely the people who are entitled to consultation before the Government here make up their minds. But if this is the case—I hope it is not; this is based on a newspaper report which I hope the noble Marquess can tell me is incorrect—it is a glaring example of the

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inept behaviour of the present Government in its treatment of Africans.
I believe that the breach which we see to-day in the unity of the Commonwealth can still be healed if the Government switch quickly to a constructive Commonwealth policy, which was what my noble friend Lord Attlee asked for at the conclusion of his remarks. What we need now is a speed-up in the decolonisation of Africa, an expansion of Commonwealth trade and a substantial increase in economic aid, in money and skill, for our Colonies and our independent colonial partners; otherwise, we shall go on drifting towards a head-on collision between the old and the new Commonwealth countries. I hope that when he comes to reply the noble Marquess will tell us that the Government intend to move much more quickly than in the past, and in the right direction.
6.4 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, referred to the proliferation of Ministers and expressed the view that it was right that Ministers should do their own job. In winding up this debate I find myself in the difficult position of having to do the jobs of what, until quite recently, were no fewer than four different Departments; but I will, nevertheless, do my best to draw together the threads of this interesting debate and, so far as I am able, to answer the questions that have been put to me by noble Lords.
Perhaps I might first refer briefly to British Guiana, as the affairs of that country have been mentioned by several noble Lords—indeed, in each case, except that of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, strictures have been addressed at Her Majesty's Government. I think the noble Lord, Lord Walston, was implying that the solution that my right honourable friend proposed was dictated by some sort of idea of election rigging. I believe the noble Lord, Lord Walston, is fully aware that what my right honourable friend was really seeking to do was to break the appalling deadlock, which has arisen in British Guiana, as Lord Walston knows so well,
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out of racial mistrust. This is the whole nub of the problem. I think no one would disagree about that. It was in an endeavour to break this deadlock that my right honourable friend suggested the solution which has been criticised this afternoon.
I do not want to go into great detail. At one time I had intended to give your Lordships a brief account of exactly what has taken place, but the time is getting on and I think it is not necessary for me to do so. I will just tell your Lordships that the whole idea behind my right honourable friend's solution is simply to break this deadlock of inter-racial difficulty. As we all know, what has happened is that the Parties have become increasingly identified with the two main races, and until this situation can be eased I am afraid that the prospects for peaceful arrangements in British Guiana are pretty thin. I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, came out wholeheartedly in favour of the proposals of my right honourable friend.
Reference has been made to the High Commission Territories. If your Lordships do not object, perhaps I may take things in a rather haphazard order, and I should like to say a word or two on this subject. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, referred to these Territories. It might be helpful if I were to go into some detail to tell the House what the position now is, and also particularly to correct some misinformation which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has received. So far as Swaziland is concerned, your Lordships will remember that a White Paper was published at the end of May. This White Paper represents an attempt to reconcile different points of view on certain aspects of their new form of Government, these differences having persisted now for some three years. The Constitution which it is proposed to make by Order in Council will institute a Legislature of 32 members who will be both Swazi and European, and predominantly non-official; and also an Executive Council of whom half the members will come from the Legislature. I must remind your Lordships that Swaziland has never had either a Legislature or an Executive Council, and the present arrangements are simply a first

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step which will be followed by further constitutional advances.
The other two Territories, Basutoland and Bechuanaland Protectorate, have had Legislatures and Executive Councils since 1960 and 1961 respectively, and very valuable experience has been gained. Here also the Legislatures have been predominantly non-official—in Basutoland only 4 out of 80 members are officials—and non-officials on the Executive Councils exercise responsibilities of a Ministerial nature. In Bechuanaland, Europeans and Africans have worked very well together for the benefit of the country, and in Basutoland the Legislature has provided a means of bringing together Chiefs and political parties in the responsibilities of government. With the reservation I have mentioned about Swaziland, all three Constitutions (and this is a point I would draw to the noble Earl's attention), have resulted from the work of local constitutional commissions, and in Basutoland and Bechuanaland Protectorate local reviews of their Constitutions have recently taken place. In a short while my right honourable friend expects to receive recommendations which will again have resulted from the work of local commissions for further constitutional advance. All three territories are now, in varying degrees, approaching the stage of self-government. When this stage has been reached, the constitutional means will exist whereby their peoples will be able to express their wishes about their eventual status.
I want to emphasise that Her Majesty's Government have no desire, nor any interest, to impose any prearranged solution, and, as in other territories, it will be a matter for the inhabitants of each territory, in the full appreciation of all their circumstances, to agree what form of final status would be appropriate for them. Should any of them at that stage wish to continue in some form of relationship with the United Kingdom, that would be a matter for negotiation, in which any proposals for commitments to be assumed by Her Majesty's Government, whether by Treaty or otherwise, would require very careful scrutiny.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, referred
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to the relationship of the Territories with South Africa.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, before the noble Marquess passes from the constitutional commissions, may I ask him whether I was correct or incorrect in supposing that the Basutoland Constitutional Commission had recommended independence in 1965 and that this recommendation had been turned down by Her Majesty's Government?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am sorry; I did not mean to duck this question. The position is that there has been a Commission in Basutoland set up by themselves, and for this reason Her Majesty's Government are in no way committed to the findings of the Commission. We have had a sight of the recommendations, and they will be discussed in the Legislature in Basutoland. This is the proper procedure. Thereafter, when they have been discussed, these matters will be referred to Her Majesty's Government. That is the situation.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am very much obliged to the noble Marquess. Then I can take it that these recommendations have reached Her Majesty's Government and that no decision has been taken pending discussion of them by the Basutoland Legislative Council?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: That is in part correct, because, clearly, until we come to discuss these proposals we are not going to make any decisions. First of all, it has got to be discussed in their own Legislature and then, when they see fit, they will bring it to us for discussion. This is the position, so that it would not be proper for us to express definite views before these matters have been discussed in their own Legislature. I think perhaps I should also add that there are certain things we do not fully understand, and we have just drawn the attention of the Basutos to certain difficulties which we see; but we have not gone into any discussion at all with them so far.
I should like to pursue the thought raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. It is perfectly true that the economies of these three Territories are very closely

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linked with, and in varying degrees dependent upon, that of the Republic. I would not this evening like to pronounce as to whether I am firmly convinced that these territories are viable or not. I think Swaziland has a quite considerable potential, but it is not too easy to see the form that economic development will take in Bechuanaland and Basutoland. But the Republic, as Republican spokesmen have made perfectly clear, has a close interest in the good will of the peoples of the Territories. Each of the Territories, in exercising its right to self-determination, will therefore at the appropriate time need to find, through negotiations with the Republic, a basis for the future conduct of their mutual relations. Meanwhile, the administration of the three Territories remains the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government. There is no question of any transfer of that responsibility to any other authority without the agreement of the inhabitants of the Territories. I hope that these few remarks may perhaps have helped the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Marquess for giving way. I take some comfort in the noble Marquess's assurance, but could he go a little further? Is the British Government prepared to obtain the presence of the United Nations in these three Territories in order to reinforce the authority of the British Government, and to make quite sure that never will their frontiers be violated? I feel that it is difficult for the United Kingdom Government alone to give that entire assurance.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I appreciate the point the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, is making, but I must remind him—and I hope I can say this without any arrogance—that we have been a long time in these Territories. The relationship between the Territories and South Africa is perfectly amicable. I have no reason to believe that there is any need for us to call for outside assistance at the moment. I do not think the situation calls for this, although I will certainly bear in mind what the noble Lord has said.
So as to get this short review of the situation in this part of the world into
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perspective, perhaps I might be allowed to make a few observations about the Republic of South Africa. I feel that, without some such observations, what I have said about the High Commission Territories may appear out of perspective. And it is all the more necessary to say something in view of Dr. Verwoerd's observations concerning these Territories. As we all know, the South African situation is one of extreme difficulty and delicacy, and it is likely to be discussed in the Security Council in the very near future. For this reason I do not suppose your Lordships will expect me to go into the question in any great detail. But I should like to say this. Nobody should be in any doubt about the British Government's abhorrence of the policy of apartheid. The problems faced by the South African Government are certainly complex and difficult, but we have never believed that apartheid could or should be the answer to them.
We do not under-estimate the strength of feeling which South African policies have aroused all over the world, nor the urgency of the need for the South Africans to bring about a radical change in the form of their Government. At the same time, I feel that we should not forget that there are cases where the remedy proposed can be worse than the disease, and certainly violence is no answer; nor, in my opinion, is economic blockade. I hope that no one has so simple a view of the problem as to imagine that a solution can be reached overnight, or that there is only one possible line of approach to this problem. As for coercion, would such action produce the intended result? Would it be within the competence of the United Nations, or within the terms of its Charter?
What we have to do, I suggest, is to convince the European population of the Republic before it is too late that it is in their own long-term interest to change their policy. I myself have no doubt that on their present course they are in fact heading for disaster. But I submit that we cannot hope to persuade them to make the necessary changes if we seek to substitute for their Government's obstinate and dogmatic application of apartheid an equally obstinate and dogmatic insistence upon one alternative formula. I suggest that we must

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ourselves be open-minded about the possible lines along which a solution may be found. Outsiders can encourage, they can suggest, and they can urge the South Africans to put their house in order, for it is certainly true that the policy of apartheid has worldwide repercussions. But in the end, my Lords, a lasting and peaceful solution such as we all seek to South Africa's problems, and to assisting the realisation of which I feel the energies of all self-respecting men and women should be directed, must be a solution accepted by all the people, by all the races of South Africa.
My Lords, I feel that this question of the High Commission Territories is one which we must watch very closely. But all the time, surely, the one important thing that we have to bear in mind is that we are responsible for the High Commission Territories, and we must take great pains to be certain that nothing we do prejudices their future or is harmful to their lives. This is something which I feel we must perpetually keep in the forefront of our minds, so long as we are responsible for the peoples in these Territories.
The noble Lord, Lord Colyton, addressed himself principally to the question of Central Africa. I know full well the reason why the noble Lord made the speech that he did to-day, but of course it is true that there is to be another opportunity when there will be a full debate on this subject; and for this reason—I hope he will forgive me—I will not go into all the points which he has raised to-day. I should, however, like to make a few observations which may be helpful on the question of the Federal Public Service.
An announcement was made on September 18 about the terminal arrangements for the future employment, retirement, terminal benefits and the pensions of past and present officers of the Federal Government. As the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, well knows, these arrangements were formulated after extensive discussion in committee in Salisbury, and were approved before they were published by all the Governments concerned. The basis of the settlement is that those officers who become redundant in consequence of the dissolution of the Federation will receive compensation for the abolition of their office,
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and this will be in the form generally of an additional one-third of their pension. If an officer is offered continued pensionable employment in his home territory (and I am sure that for many officers such continued employment should be available) but does not wish to accept this offer, he will be entitled to his earned pension only, but not to the additional one-third. I do not think, my Lords, that this smacks of coercion, as the noble Lord described it.
In order to secure the terminal benefits and pensions of Federal civil servants for the future it has been agreed between the British Government and the three Territorial Governments that the Federal Pension Fund will be retained and administered by a pension authority and trustees, and that the four Governments will share in making good any deficit in the Federal Pension Fund to the extent necessary for honouring the terminal benefits of Federal officers. The Governments concerned have also agreed to give sympathetic consideration to cases of hardship, to which the noble Lord referred, which may arise among officers and employees to whom no further offer of employment is made.
I must remind your Lordships that this settlement—as the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, of course himself said—has been accepted by the Governments concerned, and they consider that it provides equitable treatment for the individual officers involved, while at the same time (and this is important) seeking to secure that as many Federal officers as possible should be able to continue their careers in one or other of the three Territories, thus avoiding disruption of the public services. Officers are being asked to accept voluntary secondment in the first instance to a Territorial Service for a period not exceeding beyond May 31 of next year, on their Federal salaries and conditions of service.
Although, as I have said, this settlement has been accepted by all the Governments concerned, it is of course perfectly true, as the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, has told us, that the Federal Public Services Association have, since the agreement was announced, made representations to the British Government. My right honourable friend sees no ground for suggesting to the other Governments concerned that there

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should be a review of the settlement which has been accepted by them all. If the Commonwealth Secretary were to receive a delegation from the Federal Public Services Association, as they have requested, it would have to be on this clear understanding. I think, my Lords, that this is perfectly clear, and I do not wish to hold out any false hopes to the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, although I appreciate that he has gone into this matter in very great detail. But I must remind him that all the Governments concerned went into it in equal detail, with equal care; and this is the solution which has been agreed by them all.
The noble Lord, Lord Colyton, who is very well documented on this point, also referred to the United Kingdom Pensions (Increase) Act. I have some notes here, and I hope that this comment may be helpful to him. The Pensions (Increase) Act, 1962, and the Overseas Service Regulations made under it provide for the payment to overseas officers of pensions supplements by the British Government to bring the pensions increases awarded to these officers up to the level they would have received had they been home civil servants. Overseas officers in the public services of Northern Rhodesia, Nyasaland, Kenya and Zanzibar will be eligible for these pension supplements. Members of the Southern Rhodesian and Federal Public Services will not be so eligible as they are not members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service and they were selected for appointment by their own Governments and not by or on behalf of the Secretary of State. Former members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service who were transferred to the Federal Civil Service will be eligible for these supplements in respect of that part of their final pension which derives from service in Northern Rhodesia or Nyasaland, or any of the other overseas territories scheduled in the Overseas Service (Pensions Supplements) Regulations, 1963. The Governments concerned have agreed that a pensions authority should be created to be responsible for Federal pensions and to administer a pension fund to meet them.
I hope that these points may perhaps be of some help to the noble Lord, Lord Colyton. If there are any other points that are not clear, I should be only too
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pleased to write to him; or, in the subsequent debate, my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire will certainly be far more capable than I am of enlarging on this rather complicated matter, and of giving any further information the noble Lord may wish to have.
LORD COLYTON: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I am sure he will not expect me to say I am at all satisfied with his answer on the main theme, which I shall continue to follow up with the Federal Public Service officials when they come over next week, and which, of course, I will pursue in our debate on Central Africa at a later date. But, in regard to one point, I should like to ask my noble friend a question. I see his view that the Southern Rhodesian civil servants have never been members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service. Therefore, I take it that his view is that the Southern Rhodesian Government can undertake to provide them in due course with increases to meet the cost of living. But what about the ex-Federal civil servants? There is no successor Government at all which can undertake that task. Therefore I would urge that Her Majesty's Government should take this matter into consideration—as, incidentally, they took into consideration the position of ex-Sudan Government servants and ex-Egyptian Government servants.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I take the point that the noble Lord makes. But, as he will remember from my earlier remarks, quite a number of these Federal civil servants will in fact have the opportunity to take up employment in the territories. I also said—and I must remind the noble Lord of this—that, in the event of hardship, where they are not offered alternative employment the Government will take very sympathetic note of the situation. I do not think the noble Lord can press me any further than that.
I should like to touch on one other point which the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, mentioned in his interesting and well-informed speech. He referred, I think with sadness, to what he described as—I do not want to misquote him—the lawlessness which he maintains had been breaking out in Nyasaland. I know that there has been criticism of the

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administration of this country, and particularly in regard to the administration of justice. But much of this criticism appears to have been ill-founded, and I should like to call your Lordships' attention to a document which has recently been produced by the Deputy-Governor's Office in Nyasaland and which is now available in the Library. It is entitled, Rule of Law in Nyasaland, and it appears to answer very effectively the main criticisms made. Perhaps I might suggest that those noble Lords who are sufficiently interested should take a look at this document, which is now available in the Library.
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, has obviously gone to a great deal of trouble in the preparation of his remarks, I should like to give him a little more information. Perhaps I can help him upon the question of the dissolution programme, and just run very quickly through the position as it is up to date. I would remind your Lordships that at the Victoria Falls Conference in June the Governments concerned agreed, as the noble Lord said, to the setting up of representative Committees to work out detailed arrangements for the speedy and orderly reversion of Federal Government functions to territorial responsibility, and for possible future collaboration between the Territories in particular fields. These Committees have been working steadily and very fast to meet the target date of December 31, which was set by the Conference for the dissolution of the Federation.
I cannot at this stage, when many recommendations from the Committees are still under consideration by the Governments, inform your Lordships of the final outcome; but certain agreements, as the noble Lord is aware, have already been made public—for example, that relating to the Federal Public Service, about which I have just spoken. The Northern and Southern Rhodesian Governments have announced their agreement in principle that the Kariba project should continue to be operated and fully developed as a single entity under the joint ownership and control of the two Governments. This is agreed in principle. The Territorial and Federal Governments have also issued a joint statement regarding the arrangements for transition to separate currencies.
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They have also agreed to maintain, for a transitional period after dissolution, the existing legislation relating to currency, banking and exchange control, and the authority and functions of the Central Bank of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.
The noble Lord asked what functions have already been transferred to the Territorial Governments and what functions will be transferred by December 31. These matters were, in fact, covered by the Order in Council made on September 27, to which the noble Lord referred. If the noble Lord will look at the Schedule to this Order, he will find listed all the powers which are being transferred to the Territories, on a phased programme from October 1 to December 1. The remaining functions will pass to the Territories under the final Order in Council, which will be the Order in Council dissolving the Federation, and here, no doubt, will be an opportunity for the noble Lord to consider these points further.
I do not wish to detain your Lordships long, but I should like to refer to other points that have been raised in the debate, some of which, I am afraid, I have not yet reached. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, I was particularly glad to note, referred to South America, and he urged us to consider the importance of this part of the world and how much could be done to help in the development of Latin America. I do not think it is necessary to remind your Lordhips, but I should like it to be on the Record, that British trade with Latin America runs at the rate of something like £500 million a year, and our investment in Venezuelan petroleum is one of the largest investments of its kind in the world. There are now two independent members of the Commonwealth in the Caribbean, Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago, and there are still many British territories in the area at various stages of constitutional development.
During the past few years we have increased the scale of our effort in Latin America. We have managed to make available some development aid, and we have also inaugurated a programme of technical assistance. Further, we have expanded our activities in other fields, and are at present considering, with our partners in the Western European Union, ways and means of achieving a wider

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degree of co-ordination. I am sorry the noble Earl is not in his place; but perhaps he will be interested to read these remarks in Hansard to-morrow.
My Lords, I have spoken much longer than I intended, and even now I doubt whether I have covered all the points that have been raised. I should, in conclusion, like just to make one observation about the new Federation of Malaysia. My noble Leader referred, naturally, to the difficulties which Malaysia is having from Indonesia, but there is, I am glad to say, another side to the coin. From the information that I have there is every indication that Malaysia has got away to a good start. The concept of Malaysia was of a partnership; and the confidence we always had in it, and in the will and ability of the elected leaders in Sabah, Sarawak and Singapore to co-operate in making it a success, is being justified. I think it would be out of place for me to discuss the internal affairs of those independent territories, now constituent parts of Malaysia, but from all I have heard the auguries are good. So while, on the one hand, we are naturally regretting the dissolution of the Central African Federation, we can, I think, look with a reasonable degree of hope to this successful Federation in South-East Asia. My Lords, if I have failed to deal with the many points raised—
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am sure the noble Marquess would wish me to point out that he has not replied to my question about Southern Rhodesia, and he will also remember that I gave him notice I should raise the question of Southern Rhodesia in debate.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I apologise. I thought that I detected a certain weariness, and for this reason felt that I should not carry on further. The noble Earl put two questions. The answer to the first question is, Yes. The answer to the second question is that first of all we must reach the stage of dissolution. There must be one step at a time.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Marquess, that is not an answer. The answer must be "Yes" or "No". Is the present
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policy of the Government—which is what the Prime Minister said—not to give Southern Rhodesia independence until it has a democratic Constitution? Is that the policy of the Government or not?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am sure the noble Earl can understand my answer. He asked me whether the remarks of the Prime Minister represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government, to which I replied that they did. As regards the second question, I must repeat my reply. We take this one step at a time, and we have not yet reached the stage of dissolution of the Federation. I hope the noble Earl will not question me further. I do not think I have anything more to say and I apologise for detaining your Lordships for so long. I think it has been a very interesting debate, and for my part I listened to every speech with the greatest interest. I only hope that, so far as I was able, I have been of some help.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Shackleton, I beg to move that this debate be adjourned until Tuesday next, November 19.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Lord Henderson.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.

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